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Big protest in DC on January 6 Be there, you will be wild! I am your master, you are my slave You are my wild child You will do as I say, you will obey Be there, you will be wild! I am the Magician You are my rabbit I trick you into submission Then pull you from my hat Everybody's amazed And they laugh when I say I could shoot this rabbit And you'd all still obey You will come to DC You will destroy for me You will my child You will be wild I am the center of your universe Your reason for being You love me more than life itself You will rot in prison for me I give you what you always wanted A purpose for your life Now you're a soldier on a crusade And a victim in this fight You will obey me You will come to DC You will fight my child You will be wild for me On January 6 you will unleash My inferno of fury on the Capitol Police You will follow my commands My suggestions, my demands You will do as I say You will obey Come to DC My obedient child January 6 You will be wild

DC Comics Ep 446: TGIF - Death of Superman / DCYou Talk, Task Force Z #11 & Swamp Thing #16, Randy Orton & Outlaws - We start by talking a little Death of Superman and the bad times of the DCYou before getting into Task Force Z & Swamp Thing   Time Stamps: 0:00:00 - Intro - Death of Superman & DCYou Talk 0:27:52 - Task Force Z #11 0:52:06 - Swamp Thing #16   Join our Patreon and help us feel loved for as little as $1/Month @ Patreon.com/WeirdScience This Week's Badass Patreon Spotlight Show: Justice League vs. The Legion of Super-Heroes #5 & Olympus: Rebirth #1 Click Here for Weird Science Links: https://campsite.bio/weirdsciencecomics Keywords: DC Comics, Comics, Comic Books, DC Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Justice League   Weird Science DC Comics Weekly Podcast Schedule: Wednesday - DC Comics Mid-Week Show Friday - TGIG DC Comics Review Show Sunday - Main DC Comics Podcast

By your request, we read all 12 issues of the 2015 Black Canary series by Brendan Fletcher, Annie Wu, and an array of other artists. How does this DCYOU offering hold up? Listen and find out!

Dawson and I go deep on meditation and emotion regulation.  He discusses the attention network, empathy network, and the self-centeredness suppression network.  He is a PhD and an award-winning science writer with three best-selling books to his credit. The Genie in Your Genes was the first book to demonstrate that emotions drive gene expression. Mind to Matter, showed that the brain creates much of what we think of as objective reality. And Bliss Brain which we discuss in the interview.  And he has conducted dozens of clinical trials and founded the National Institute for Integrative Healthcare, www.niih.org, to promote groundbreaking new treatments. Its largest program, the Veterans Stress Project, has offered free treatment to over 20,000 veterans with PTSD over the last decade.Administrative: (See episode transcript below)Get Dawson Church's books hereGenie in Your Genes at www.yourgeniusgene.com.Mind to Matter here www.mindtomatter.com.Bliss Brain where www.blissbrain.com,Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjGet A Course In Miracles Here! https://amzn.to/3hoE7sAAccess my “Insiders Guide to Finding Peace” here: https://belove.media/peaceSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript:0:00:06.8 Mischa Zvegintzov: Welcome back everybody to the Tools For A Good Life Summit. And right now, I would like to introduce to you Dawson Church, PhD. I'm so excited to have you on board. We just had an amazing moment, a big breath of joy, and hope for this for everybody. But a... Quick, I'm gonna read your bio if that's okay.0:00:28.6 Dawson Church: Go for it. And I hope everyone is breathing with us.0:00:32.2 MZ: Yes. Yes.[laughter]0:00:36.3 MZ: So good. All right. Fantastic. Dawson Church, PhD is an award-winning science writer with three best-selling books to your credit. The Genie in Your Genes was the first book to demonstrate that emotions drive gene expression. You can find that book at www.yourgeniusgene.com. We've got, Mind to Matter, showed that the brain creates much of what we think of as objective reality. You can find that at www.mindtomatter.com, and we've got Bliss Brain, which you can find at www.blissbrain.com, which we'll be discussing in a minute. Very excited for that. Which demonstrates that peak mental states rapidly remodel the brain for happiness. You have conducted dozens of clinical trials and founded the National Institute for Integrative Healthcare, niih.org, to promote groundbreaking new treatments. Its largest program, the Veterans Stress Project, has offered free treatment to over 20,000 veterans with PTSD over the last decade. Thank you so much for that. And you share how to apply these health and performance breakthroughs through EFT Universe at eftuniverse.com. One of the largest alternative medicine sites on the web. Welcome, Dawson Church.0:02:09.8 DC: I'm having fun doing it all, Mischa.0:02:12.1 MZ: I'm having fun doing it all.[laughter]0:02:13.8 MZ: I love it. That is so... Yes, so good and so powerful. I just watch... I'm looking over here 'cause I have another screen but watching some of your content and just your joy and your enthusiasm and your passion for life. It is infectious. And I have a note here, "learned." We can learn this, learned happiness.0:02:38.7 DC: Learned happiness. Absolutely. And it's like, use it or lose it and the neural circuits that we use the most, the habits and behaviors through which we send signals through our brain, those things are what grow and circuits we don't use shrink. So absolutely, we can learn these things as we practice them. Our bodies, our brains are literally changing with every thought in our minds and consciousness.0:03:03.9 MZ: Yes. Which I think is so hopeful. If we are willing to just take a little bit of positive action, the results can be massive. Before we get to that, however, I wanted to discuss... I wrote down some notes. You were asked to speak before Congress a couple of times, correct?0:03:25.4 DC: Yes.0:03:26.1 MZ: And did you actually do... Go ahead, tell me.0:03:29.1 DC: Well, it was exciting because I've been to Washington DC several times. And when I began to get reports back from therapists working with veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, and they said, "We're working with these veterans spending just a few sessions, five, 10 sessions with them. And they're recovering from flashbacks, nightmares, PTSD." I was like... I was pretty skeptical because that's a big claim. And the American Psychiatric Association had just commissioned a survey which showed that basically PTSD just gets worse over time. Maybe you can manage it with drugs. That's the best you can do. So I heard these accounts, then we had to actually put some numbers to them and do some pilot research on the methods these therapists were using. And it was true that veterans really were recovering really quickly using these advanced psychotherapeutic methods. And so we eventually got that work in front of several Senators and Congress members.0:04:25.7 DC: We then were able to advocate for them in Congress. And then, I was invited to testify before the House Armed Services Committee and the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. And those are powerful moments to sit there in this room full of Members of Congress and share about the potential of these methods and then really see if we can get these to veterans who are suffering. And that was a really profound experience. And what I found is that we have these tools now in our hands, in our toolboxes. And it's true that we really can shift most cases of PTSD. About nine out of 10 is what research shows us most cases of anxiety and depression. And after six, seven, eight sessions, these veterans just leave their therapy sessions, and they're free of flashbacks and nightmares, intrusive thoughts, all of the other things that would have otherwise have bothered them the rest of their lives. So, it's amazing to watch that happen.0:05:21.3 MZ: Yeah, that's incredible, I think. Well, two things, one, the palpable experience of the energy in front of when you're testifying, I guess testifying sounds aggressive, but when you're having an opportunity to speak to the... What did you call it? The joint say it again. The Joint Commissioner, what...0:05:45.8 DC: Yeah, the Veterans Affairs Committee and the Armed Services Committee.0:05:48.7 MZ: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So did you feel a palpable energy shift of awareness with these Senators and things? I'm looking for some visceral experience there.0:06:01.5 DC: You know, it's really interesting question, Mischa. And one of the things that I found interesting was that what made the most impact on the Members of Congress was the stories of veterans themselves. Like we had one Vietnam veteran, and he said he was due to have six sessions. After the first session, he emailed his therapist and said, "After that very first session with you, I got my first full night's sleep since Vietnam, 35 years earlier." And so, the members of Congress would hear from veterans.0:06:37.2 DC: Another veteran was a young veteran. He'd done four tours in Iraq. And he had this terrible PTSD, nightmares, and flashbacks. Because one of the first things he had to do when he got there... Almost immediately, he arrived in Iraq as a medic, one of his best friends was killed. And one of his jobs is he had to prepare the uniform of his dead friend to send back to the family in the US with all the other personal effects. And so this young man was so traumatized, remembering, having to clean the blood and body fluids off the uniform. And it also smelled really bad because it'd been sitting in the Iraqi sun for a few days. And he literally had to run outside the hut, take a deep breath of air, run back inside, do a little bit of cleaning, run back outside just to breathe. 'Cause, it smelled so bad in there. So here he was. His emotions were 10 out of 10 as he recalled that event. After we worked with him in just one session, he was at a zero. He had no more emotion around it. He had only positive feelings. He said, "You know that, I realize now that was an act of love. And I felt now the love that I was giving his family and him by that act of service."0:07:47.6 DC: And so it shifted in his mind. So when you've seen, as you mentioned, over 20,000 veterans have this experience and a randomized controlled trial shows that these effects are true for most people, it just affects you profoundly. And that's what we thought made the biggest impact on those Senators, and Congress Members was that when they heard stories by real people, it was even more impactful than the research numbers data.0:08:13.3 MZ: Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, I love that. I... Obviously circumstance to get there, not so excited about. But the result and the service aspect of that too. So for yourself...0:08:26.8 DC: Yeah, we all have stuff leftover from our past Mischa, we all have stuff leftover from our past, like childhood, really experiences that will otherwise stay with us. And so when you see people shed these past burdens of trauma and then claim the lives they can live, it's just powerful.0:08:44.1 MZ: It's amazing. I was gonna ask. I imagined seeing that again and again, and to be a part of that and to be able to be a part of that and help grow that is just gotta be insanely gratifying.0:09:00.2 DC: They call it a job.[laughter]0:09:03.7 MZ: Oh my gosh.[chuckle]0:09:06.2 DC: It's not hard work. It's wonderful.0:09:08.4 MZ: Thank you.0:09:08.4 DC: It also really works for you because when you're helping people heal like that, we call it... There's a term for it. We call it "borrowing benefits." And you literally, as you work with other people, seeing them heal, it heals you as well.0:09:20.0 MZ: That's beautiful. And then I think, I am... As I was digging and looking, and I'm like the amount of hours that you have put into this. And I say that in a good way, just in a massive way. I wrote down, "How many hours do you think you've put into this?"0:09:41.6 DC: No, it's a bad way, Mischa. When I was 15 years old, when I was a teenager, I was so depressed, I was so anxious. I had all the symptoms of PTSD myself; flashbacks, intrusive thoughts, hyper-vigilance. And so, I just fled into a spiritual community when I was 15 to try and get over my own inner demons. And I then spent... What I write about in... There's a section of my book, Bliss Brain. It's called "From 50 Years to 50 Seconds." And it took me 50 years to figure out how the brain works, how the neurochemistry of all this works. How our genes are being affected epigenetically by these positive and negative experiences, how we can use these methods for healing.0:10:26.2 DC: And then what I've been doing for the last few years is hooking people up to EEGs. And so we literally read their brain information processing ability and how their brains are running information, especially when they think about trauma or think about bad events in their lives. And we found that now within four minutes or so, we can bring people from that intense emotionally triggered state back down to deep peace, inner calm. And we had one lady in our seven-day retreat. By the end of the seven days of practicing these methods, she was down to 47 seconds between sitting down, closing her eyes, entering that state. And in 47 seconds, under 50 seconds, she was having a full-blown mystical, elevated what we call the awakened mind, Bliss Brain experience. So we now have figured out, with the aid of neuroscience, how to train people into doing this, not 50 years like me, but 50 seconds. [chuckle] 50 seconds or less.[chuckle]0:11:30.8 MZ: You know what? Thank you for taking the pain, Dawson.[laughter]0:11:35.9 DC: Don't do what I do... Did. Go to an ashram and sit there for 10 years, trying to control your breathing and your thoughts. It won't work.[chuckle]0:11:43.6 MZ: It's so good. I don't wanna give away the ghost here, and we're gonna get to this in a second. But I took a couple of notes, some other notes, and one was, "Remodel your brain in as little as eight weeks," but... Or no buts, but... And then this other part, "It's important to turn those temporary states into long term enduring traits." Turn a state into a trait. And when I came across where you said that, I was like, "That is awesome." And so we can... Let me... Go ahead. You can say something to that if you want. But...0:12:26.0 DC: Yeah, that really is the goal here on meditation, of EFT acupressure tapping, of the various other techniques I advocate in my books. And what you wanna do is not have a temporary state of wellbeing. 'Cause it feels good to feel good, and it feels good to be happy. It feels good to be content and have inner peace. But it's a state, and it'll pass. And then you hear some bad news. You stub your leg on a piece of furniture. You have a financial reverse. And suddenly you lose your state. And so those states are nice, but they're just transient. What you wanna do is fire those neurons repeatedly over and over and over again. And then as your neural bundles get bigger and thicker, and research shows that in just one hour of repeat stimulation, that the number of synaptic connections in a neural bundle can double. So, you can double the number of connections in a neural bundle in an hour. So now you're turning the software of a state into the hardware of a trait. And then you are not just feeling happy, sometimes, you are a happy person. You aren't just feeling creative, sometimes, you are a creative person. So you've now got the trait of creativity, the trait of resilience, the trait of joy, and then no one could take that away from you because it's hard-wired into your brain.0:13:48.6 MZ: Love that. That's a vision of hope. That is so good. Thank you for that. Alright, let's get to the good, good stuff. I'm gonna pose a scenario to you and then ask you a question. Okay? Fantastic. So, given this scenario, think of life as a three-legged stool of relationships, finances, and health. And now think of someone who is or was successful and who has had two of those legs fall out from under them. This could be a combination of divorce, career upheaval, financial stress, kids acting out, or not going the direction that the parents want. It could be physical health challenges for themselves or a loved one. Maybe a death in the family and continued failed relationships. For me, it was divorce. My kids started to veer a little bit, I felt. Like career upheaval. And then both my parents died in rapid succession. It really shook some foundations that I had. And to top it off, my "pull myself up from my bootstraps" mentality, that "fix it or push my way through it," was no longer working. I needed some new tools. And by the grace of God, I was open to some new tools. So, this is my question to you. Thinking of your Bliss Brain work and your book, what are the exact next steps you would offer this person, so they know they are headed in the new right direction, that they will have positive momentum towards getting their life back on track.0:15:38.9 DC: This is gonna sound really counterintuitive and odd. [chuckle] But it starts with self-acceptance. And self-love and accepting yourself just the way you are. And if circumstances; the way they are. And research into healing shows that acceptance is where you have to start. Like... I'm trying to think of a good example to use here. There are a whole bunch of them, they are crowding together in my brain, to mention. But when you have multiple challenges like that, just breathing and remaining centered and accepting and loving yourself is the first thing. In your loss, in your confusion, in your difficulty, and it's hard to be in that state, and yet, if you're trying to get out of it, if you're trying to... Now, you said, "pushing my way through." That works up to a point until it doesn't. [chuckle] So the first thing is just love and compassion. Just self-love, self-compassion.0:16:38.0 DC: The phrase we use in EFT acupressure tapping is, "Even though I have this problem, I deeply and completely love and accept myself." And that's really reassuring to you when you hear that when we're working, say, with a man who is 200 pounds overweight. Now, the last thing he wants to accept is being 200 pounds overweight. And yet, if we can train him to love and accept himself in that state, that unlocks all of the tension in the psyche between the part of yourself that's the inner coach, inner critique, inner CEO saying, "You should lose weight, you should quit smoking, you shouldn't drink so much, you should eat healthy, you should take more vacations, you should just save more money, blah, blah, blah, bloody blah." It's just yelling at us all the time, and that top-dog coercive inner voice is just keeping the energy pattern of what we've got going on, stuck and in place. And the moment you relax and say, "You know, I just accept myself the way I am."0:17:40.5 DC: We did an MRI study, some colleagues made an MRI study of obese women. Women who are overweight. When they put them in the MRI and showed them images of chocolate cake, and strawberry pie, and vanilla ice cream, and all these things, their mid-brains, their limbic system, the emotional part of the brain, was totally lit up. In other words, they weren't seeing food as food or nutrients. They were seeing food as a highly emotional event. After those five or six sessions of these simple therapies, we put them back in the MRI. They were getting exposed to all those emotive images, and they had no response at all. In fact, the guy running the MRI, the neuroscientist, said to my colleague, "What have you done to these women that they just have no emotional response to food anymore?"0:18:31.2 DC: So again, now they don't have that huge emotional response, and they love and accept themselves the way they are. Then all of the energy that's trapped in that top dog-underdog kind of struggle, "You should fix yourself, you should improve, you should be better." And underdog saying, "Oh yes, I will, top dog, I will improve, I will quit smoking, blah, blah, blah." And then underdog runs out behind the shed when top dog's back is turned and smokes the cigarette. And so, all of the tension behind these weird psychological struggles is just removed when you love and accept yourself. So love and acceptance is the first step. So that's number one. Accepting where you are, and admitting it, and acknowledging it just as a fact, and then you look at what you can do to shift and then you practice it.0:19:20.6 MZ: Now I can't over-stress the value of practice. What I try and do in my own work, so I try to get people addicted. So I wanna get them addicted to their own dopamine, serotonin, anandamide, oxytocin, nitric oxide all these wonderful neuro chemicals that happen in your brain spontaneously when you meditate and when you do that, people have a habit of meditating, so if I can get people hooked one time on high serotonin, high dopamine then they'll stay hooked and they'll keep on meditating so I can't over-stress the importance of getting yourself addicted to the right stuff to meditation, and then day after day, you meditate, and within a month, our MRI research shows your brain patterns are already changing. Your brain, the way your brain processes information is already shifting, and then you start to turn those temporary states into traits. And that's the value of practice. It doesn't take long. In one MRI study, it took just 30 days of practice 20 minutes a day, and people's brains were processing information totally differently.0:20:33.1 MZ: That's amazing. Can I ask you, what I wanna ask you and I look at... And I was checking out your Bliss Brain book and such. You say you teach seven simple steps. Is this part of that? Is this literally part of what we're talking about right here?0:20:49.8 DC: Yeah. That technique is called Eco-meditation. E-C-O meditation and is just a seven-step process, we do the acupressure, we do mindful breathing, we do a little bit of self-hypnosis, we do heart coherence, and we do neuro-feedback all in a certain order, and there's seven of these things we practice... And when you do that, suddenly you just, your brain flips into ecstasy with its elevated emotional state, no 10,000 hours, no spiritual master, no special training, no spiritual belief required. You can be an atheist. [laughter] You can be Jewish, you can be episcopalian you can be anything and it's just gonna work, it's a mechanical neurological event you're triggering in your body and you feel great.0:21:35.5 MZ: Okay, fantastic, fantastic. I didn't mean... Alright, I was just curious. So we'll go back to the self-acceptance, what you can do to shift, so that would be like in this particular case, it sounds like meditation would be a specific tool you're talking about, but it could be many different things for somebody.0:21:56.3 DC: In my earlier book, Mind Matter, I list about 30 things you can do, there's grounding, there's time in nature, social support, but two I recommend though that are fundamental and easy, one Mischa is that style meditation that puts you in those elevated emotional states and doing it first thing in the morning. That's a number one, and that's I think should be universal, just the benefits. One of my doctor friends said, "If meditation were a drug, it would be medical malpractice to fail to prescribe it." [laughter] So it's just the foundation as a frame for a good life. So you wanna do it in the morning, doesn't have to be an hour or two hours, half an hour is plenty. And then if you use a guided meditation that'll guide you into that elevated state. And then the second thing I recommend as having everyone should have this in their Personal Growth Tool Kit is EFT acupressure tapping, that's just somebody tapping on a series of 13 acupressure points.0:23:03.4 DC: It regulates the body's energy, that's what helped those women get over their emotional attachment and projection to food. So you wanna get over your high cortisol, you wanna get over your stress and EFT within two minutes, it'll just crash your cortisol, crash your adrenalin, your level of all of these stress neurotransmitters and hormones will go way, way, way down. And then all kinds of beneficial things increase including immunity and cell repair, all kinds of good things go up when those molecules become available to your body for building healthy cells. So those are the two things I think that are great, then layer in time in nature and layer in a spiritual practice, layer in... There's a wonderful medieval term called lectio divina reading inspirational material, fill your mind with this stuff, don't fill your mind with all the crap in the mass media and whatever you do, don't turn on your phone and start looking at it first thing in the morning when you wake up because you're gonna get then stuck in the lateral level of everything going on in the world, which is not in your best interest, instead, orient yourself meditation to what I call in my books, non-local mind and non-local reality in meditation, and then you can deal with the world through the framing of being one with the universe.0:24:20.3 DC: But that's the order to do it in. Hook up to the universe, then deal with the outside world, don't open your eyes and look at your phone and get sucked into the outside world and then try and meditate because you've blown it at that point, and it's hard to get back to that good space.0:24:35.0 MZ: Too little too late.0:24:36.6 DC: Oh, yes.0:24:37.6 MZ: Yes. I love meditation myself. I have had a committed practice for a while, and so I think it's so, so powerful, and I think oftentimes the results are evident later, or I'll notice too, just getting that nice breathing going even with the monkey mind, it's almost like the monkey mind is irrelevant, but...0:25:03.6 DC: It is.0:25:03.7 MZ: Yeah. Just carrying that nice breath, that connection to the universe you're talking about through the day is... Before you look at the phone is so good. Thank you for that.0:25:15.5 DC: And you're right about the monkey mind being irrelevant because we can't still our minds, we can't quiet our minds, our brains were meant to be highly active and highly involved with everything around us, think about... I was just thinking about just the ancestors, and I was going down a path in the forest near me a couple of days ago, and there was a stick lying in the path, and I thought, "You know my ancestors 100,000 years ago, when they see us that long brown skinny thing lying on the path. It might be a snake." So the optimist says, "Oh no, it's a stick. It's fine." And 99 times out of a 100, 100,000 years ago, it was a stick and nothing bad happened. The pessimist is seeing every stick and saying, "It's a snake. It's gonna bite me."0:26:00.2 MZ: Yes.0:26:00.8 DC: And so the pessimist is... The one time it is a snake, the pessimist says, "You see? It was a snake. It didn't bite me because I was so paranoid and suspicious, and now I'm safe." The optimist, unfortunately, at one time in a 100 gets bitten and dies. So he gets weeded from the gene pool, and only the pessimist lives to perpetuate his genes to the next generation. Multiply this by 10,000 generations and you have you, Mischa and me Dawson. And we are capable of the monkey mind like you wouldn't believe. Always looking around for the baddest stuff in our environment. We've just been bred that way for tens and of thousands of generations. And now we sit there and close our eyes and try and be happy? [laughter] Isn't gonna happen. [laughter]0:26:45.7 MZ: Oh, my God. That's amazing. Okay, so then you said... What can we do to shift? You have, in your book, one of your books, which you referenced, you've got 30 great tools, but start with the some sort of meditation and some EFT style of tapping in and then layer in more as time goes by. And then practice, so practice, practice. Find some consistency, yes?0:27:18.9 DC: Build those neural bundles, turn those states to traits, and that's what consistency will do. So then when one or more of the legs of your stool is gone, you're still totally serene, have total inner peace, and you have something that outside tragedy can't take away. You've now built the neural wiring or resilience in your brain, and that's just who you are. So when the pandemic strikes, when the economic crash happens, when you get divorced, when your kids are acting out, you are this highly resilient person. The research that I cover in both Bliss Brain and Mind to Matter shows that not only are you that person during meditation. Research by a wonderful neuro-scientist called Teresa Amabile at Harvard shows you reach that state mentally for that 30 minutes or so in the morning... Meditation, flow states, they then perpetuate themselves for 48 hours of increased productivity, creativity and problem solving ability.0:28:22.9 DC: And in one US government study, they showed that people in those states have five times the ability to solve complex problems. So now, even if you have had two of the three supports, legs knocked off out from under your stool, you have five times the ability to solve complex problems. You are gonna can put your stool back together again far quicker than somebody who doesn't have those. And in fact, there is this whole field, I talk about in Bliss Brain called post-traumatic growth. Not only do you wind up okay, you wind up better. You've actually used disaster as a springboard for personal transformation, so that's the potential of that practice.0:29:05.0 MZ: Yeah, fantastic. I love that. So many cool thoughts just were going through my brain as you were talking about that. And now they've all escaped me, but they will come back to me in a second, I'm sure. So after practice, was there anything else or were you... I don't mean to cut you off with the sort of the steps.0:29:31.5 DC: Yeah. So self-love, practice, at least, meditation and learn tapping, 'cause tapping takes you all of two minutes to learn. Takes you all of 30 seconds to do, and then you quickly are gonna regulate your emotions. And I cover in Bliss Brain, there are four circuits to the brain that start to change. Now, this is the absolute miracle of neuroplasticity. 20 years ago, we had no idea the brain was remodeling itself that way, but I have case studies in Bliss Brain showing that if you practice in this way, the emotion regulation network in your brain, the little hub that governs emotional network, emotional regulation in your brain, grows by, get this, 10% a month. So in three months, that part of the brain can be 30% larger. So now you can regulate your irritation, your annoyance, your resentment, your negative emotion, and that opens the door to a much happier life. So that's why in Bliss Brain I say there are four networks to develop, but develop emotion regulation first.0:30:43.7 DC: The next network is the one that controls the self, and so we have these elaborate stories about who we are. "I was born at such and such a time. This is my biography. This is what my job is like, my life is like, my money is like." That's all the self, and unfortunately, that is the part of the brain that draws us into suffering. That's called the default mode network. Our brain defaults to that suffering network automatically when we aren't engaged in a task. And so we need to dial that part of the brain down. Tibetan monks, with 10,000 hours of meditation practice, they can dial down the default mode network. Literally, they close their eyes, and in a second they shut it down. You and I, maybe five minutes if we are able to practice. So you wanna shut down the self-absorbed chatter.0:31:32.6 MZ: On a good day. Yes...0:31:33.5 DC: About your life that we're all doing, the monkey mind, and the self-critical part of the brain, especially. So that's the next thing you wanna develop. You wanna develop compassion and feel compassion for other people. Not just be thinking about yourself but loving other people, loving everything the way it is, loving every... It will actually guide you to loving every atom in the universe. So we develop developed these networks, the empathy network, and then the attention network. We learn to... It's part of the brain, called the orbital prefrontal cortex. We develop that part of the brain, so it grows, becomes better at firing, and then we can pay attention to what's important and we can screen out irrelevant information. Our work productivity goes through the roof, we're far more productive at work, we're far better at solving problems. Our creativity at least doubles with these methods in a very short order. So the benefits to your regular life are immense.0:32:29.9 MZ: That's amazing. And one of the thoughts that I had, which I love, and you're just verifying with data, with research, is this idea that I don't have time. I don't have time, right? And if we take the time, it will make us that much more efficient, that much more productivity... Or more productive. And it sounds like that... And I would verify this for myself, but maybe you can validate it for me. Time taken for the meditation, the simple practices, the rewards far... The productivity rewards, happiness rewards, time rewards, efficiency rewards far outweigh the limited amount of time we need to put in to achieve those results.0:33:24.3 DC: Some people say, "I don't have time to meditate." My retort is, "You don't have time not to meditate." In one study done by a huge consulting firm called McKinsey, they found that executives who are already high performers and are entering these flow states via meditation, their productivity goes up five-fold. So you get done now in one day what used to take you five. Now, those are the peak performers. And we're now measuring this in ordinary people. We're measuring how much productivity goes up. But even if it goes up 20%, that's like an extra day a week you have available to you. And you won't be using that week to do email and that extra day of the week to work. You'll be using it to go play, be creative and have fun. So it changes your whole life game plan to have that huge increase in productivity.0:34:16.0 MZ: Perfect. Before... I wanna do one thing, if you would, for me really quick. You were talking about in the Bliss Brain book; there's the four neural networks that you're effecting change in, correct?0:34:26.6 DC: Yes.0:34:26.9 MZ: I think that's what you said. And so the first one was...0:34:29.8 DC: Emotion regulation.0:34:31.3 MZ: Say it again?0:34:32.8 DC: Emotion regulation.0:34:33.8 MZ: Emotion regulation. And so that would be, for example, the meditation, the stuff like that, right?0:34:39.0 DC: Yes.0:34:39.2 MZ: And then the second one was...0:34:43.4 DC: There's also the attention network.0:34:47.7 MZ: Intent... So, what would be a...0:34:47.8 DC: The empathy network and the...0:34:48.1 MZ: Oh, go ahead.0:34:48.5 DC: So yeah, the attention network, empathy network, and the self-centeredness suppression network. There's a part... Parts of the brain that take that self-absorbed mental chatter and switch off that project.0:35:02.0 MZ: Perfect. Okay. For the second one, could you give a simple tip or tool to help with that, to give someone a vision, so the... I can't read my own writing. [chuckle]0:35:17.5 DC: For the attention network, for example...0:35:21.2 MZ: Yes.0:35:21.5 DC: That's why a guided meditation is so useful.0:35:24.7 MZ: Okay.0:35:24.9 DC: There's dozens of guided meditations free on the web. Both at ecomeditation.com and also Insight Timer has them. A bunch of websites have my meditations for free. Blissbrain.com has them. Mind to Matter has unique ones for manifestation. And so these guided meditations give your attention network a voice, some music to focus on. That's good for you for maybe six months, maybe two or three years. At that point, you wanna graduate from that, and you'll be doing meditations yourself. You'll be able to focus your attention without the words. But for novices, it's really hard to do. You need something to focus on, like that voice and that music, so that's a second...0:36:06.0 MZ: I love it. Fantastic! And why not take advantage of those tools? Especially, since a ton of them are out there for free. Right?0:36:14.6 DC: Yep. Yep.0:36:14.6 MZ: Okay, so the empathy network, what... Tell me a tip, trick, tool for that. Is that more meditation, or is that... Is that basically... And what I'm hearing you say is that meditation is gonna fire all four of those. [chuckle]0:36:29.3 DC: Yes. It will. So empathy, like the guided meditations, we have you focus on a source of unconditional love. A person or being with whom you feel that some sort of connection. And when you do that, that activates a part of the brain called the insula, which has to do with pro-social emotions. So empathy, altruism, love, gratitude, all of those things are activated. And all of those are part of what the insula runs. And so, when you activate the insula, all of these pro-social emotions kick in, and then you can feel this immense compassion. Your heart rate slows down then, your heart rhythm becomes very regular. All kinds of good things happen in your body. So you deliberately activate the insula during the compassion part of EcoMeditation.0:37:19.1 MZ: Fantastic, thank you. And then the self-centeredness.0:37:24.7 DC: Yeah. And so in Chapter 1 and Chapter 7, beginning at the end of my book, Mind to Matter, I talk about local reality and non-local mind. And we all have to navigate local reality. I have to keep my car tuned up, and I have to keep my mortgage and rent paid, and I have to take care of my children, and I have a whole local reality I have to attend to. And then, what meditation allows you to do is step into non-local reality. And so when I sit there in the morning and meditate, I find myself being drawn up into this whole other world of just pure being. And then you're merging with non-local love, non-local information fields. And when you then end meditation and move back into your work world, you're drawing down all of the information into your local reality. That's what makes it so productive. Like, Albert Einstein said that that's the way all great scientific discoveries are made by people in altered states of consciousness where they're in tune with these global reality fields. And he'd been trying to figure out the theory of relativity for a long time. And then, one night, he fell asleep. He was really depressed and frustrated at the time. He just was... It was like beating his head against the wall. And he just saw the whole theory of relativity in a dream, in his vision. And then woke up in the morning and then spent four years working out of mathematics bit.[chuckle]0:38:52.9 MZ: That is amazing. Dawson, this has been amazing. Everybody who's watching and listening. If this interview with Dawson has been fantastic and you want to get even more content from Dawson, upgrade to the All-Access Pass for the bonus interview, which we're gonna be doing right after this. And I've got great questions there, and Dawson's obviously amazing so you won't wanna miss it. So be sure to upgrade to the All-Access Pass for that. And then any final thoughts to share that we did not get a chance to cover, Dawson?0:39:28.2 DC: Lots. [chuckle] We can't covered them all now. I would encourage you to just fill your life with everything that you can to support yourself. So it's meditation in the morning. Again, first thing in the morning, before you get involved in the outside local reality of your life, tapping to bring you back to that baseline during the day only takes a minute or two to tap, and then you feel better right away. And then nurture yourself with great friendships, people who support and love you. Nurture yourself with great media, just read books, read my books, read other people's books, there's so much information out there. Some free information out there, or even the cost of a book now 10, $20, it's amazing how much you can get. And then you start to fill your mind, inner reality with all of this. And when you filled your inner reality with such good inputs, the good outputs just appear all around you in friendships, in money insights, in well-being, in massive epigenetic shift in your cells.0:40:27.6 DC: So just doing all those things to truly love, nurture yourself and create a good life for yourself. You can create a good life for yourself. Research shows that you can be dramatically happier than you are today. In some of these MRI studies, we've seen these monks and they close their eyes, meditate, and their waves, the brainwaves of happiness go up 700% over baseline. So the bottom line is you can be like seven times as happy as you could even imagine. What neuroscience is doing meditation said to me, "Dawson. I thought it was a 10 out of 10 happiness before, but now I'm like a 15. I'm having like transcended happiness." And that is what anyone can learn to cultivate in their own brains.0:41:11.6 MZ: It's amazing, Dawson. This has been amazing, and anybody can go to blissbrain.com and download that ebook for free, I believe. Correct?0:41:23.9 DC: Yeah.0:41:24.8 MZ: Yeah. So absolutely everybody should go do that. No matter what, you've just reinforced as well in me that the choice is mine. Like more happiness is there for me if I choose to go grab it. And that's outside of the shiny object so thank you for that. And then there was another thought, but it's fleeting and gone, but thank you so much. I'm gonna hit stop here and then we'll come back in a minute for round two.[music]

Topic: Wonder Woman Tutorial   In route to discussing Wonder Woman 1984, we need to do a Tutorial on Wonder Woman herself.  And her creation is amazing!  I was surprised by it and so was Mom.  You have to listen just to find that part out.   Creator:   Created in 1941 by William Moulton Marston, pen name: Charles Moulton. Marston was a unique individual, a Harvard PhD psychologist who also helped created the lie detector.  He believed that Comics had ‘great educational potential’, and was hired by All-American Publications as an educational consultant.  The Publication would late merge with another company creating DC Comics.    He lived with his wife Elizabeth Marston and also Ms. Olive Byrne, of which they had a consenting polyamorous life together.  Marston’s research and stuff focused heavily on gender, with him at one point studying all Female communities, ie observing the rituals and behaviors of Sororities.  It led him to believe that women were the superior gender, but was only being held back from power due to the difficulties of giving birth and raising children, but also housework.  He eventually theorized that eventually both child rearing and housework would get easier, allowing women to get educated, gain power, and take their rightful spots as leaders of the world.   When he set out to make Wonder Woman, he did so consciously, deciding to create a female super hero in a male dominated landscape.  Marston would later write:   "Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.   Wonder Woman is also loosely based off Elizabeth and Olive, with Elizabeth inspiring her attitude, and Olive inspiring her appearance.  Apparently Wonder Woman’s bracelets was inspired because Olive liked to wear big bracelets.     Comic History: Since staring All Star Comic #8 in 1941, Wonder Woman has had her own on going Comic Book ever since then.  Marston would initially write for the series, with H.G. Peter doing the artwork until his death in 1947 at the age of 54.  Later writers would pick up the character and run with it.  Early stories focused on feminist agenda, and for the times, push a radical, progressive women’s agenda.   After Marston’s Death, new writers toned down some of the Wonder Woman elements from earlier comics.  This included the remove of more bondage related elements, toned down some of the radical feminist agenda, and eventually adding Hellenic and mythological elements and roots to the character.    By the late 1960s, Wonder Woman lost her powers, owning to stay in the world of man, and for a time, picked up martial arts and weapons combat, and gave up being a super hero for owning a boutique.  She participated in various story lines that focused more on espionage and mythology.  Eventually, due to the 1970s TV show, Wonder Woman was repowered into a super hero.  However, by 1985, Wonder Woman’s comic was losing popularity and the character was written out.    During the Crisis of infinite Earth, Wonder Woman was depicted as originating on Earth Two, a second Earth to the main DC Continuity.  As a result of the event that wiped out the Multiverse and all other Earths, Wonder Woman was to be written out.  However, at the end of the series, Wonder Woman was given a new origin story, as an ambassador from her home land of Themyscira.  This is how she would be portrayed in the modern age.   By the end of Flash Point event, the New 52 reimagines Wonder Woman again, this time also carrying her now iconic sword and shield in to battle.  The character was redesigned again in 2016, bring her more in line with her original creation.     Crisis Events DC has major cross over events subjected in to Crisis Events, typically with the intent of retconing, shaking up, or revamping the entire comic landscape.  This is often done to streamline continuities or characters, change up dynamics of the world and/or characters, or re-introduce new elements back in to the series.  The events offer huge crossovers events for various books, characters, and stories, with the finality of the decisions that get made due to it.  These Stories include:   Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985) This event resulted in the collapse of the Multiverse, the notion that there are various worlds with similar or mirror characters that live similar or mirror lives due to the nature of possibility.  As a result of losing the multiversity, several characters migrated to the main continuity, while other characters were killed off, like Super Girl.    Zero Hour, Crisis in Time! (1994) This event saw the original Green Lantern become a bad guy and attempt to recreate the universe in his own image.  The true purpose was to streamline the dates of events that happened, making it so that most character had been around for only 10 or so years, along with fixing the continuity issues plaguing various characters and their introduction from the previous Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline.   Infinite Crisis (2005) This Crossover saw the reintroduction of the Multiverse, and redid the timeline and events once more.  As a result of some character leaving to a pocket dimension in the First Crisis event, they see how dark the universe has gotten and decided they need to recreate Earth Two and Destroy Earth One.  Eventually though, the Multiverse gets recreated as a result.   Final Crisis (2008) The event sees a Super Man Villain, Dark Sied, taking over Earth using a formula designed to ensnare people to his will.  Because Earth is the cornerstone of the Multiverse, and controlling it give the power to control over Multiverses, Dark Sied was capable of controlling the entire Multiverse.  The comic in theory kills both Dark Sied and Batman, though both would return through weirdness.   Flash Point (2011) Flash Point sees the Flash use his super speed ability to go back in time and save his mother.  As a result of saving his mother, but at the cost of changing the entire universe, including depowering the Flash.  In the end, Flash is able to get his powers back, and restore the events that led to the correct universe.  However, while initially intended as a contained story, the events led to the ‘New 52’ Timeline.  New 52 was a company-wide relaunch of all their series, simplifying and revamping many characters and time lines.   Convergence (2015) Considered one of the worse Crisis Events, it saw a bad guy trying to battle the various DC cities against one another.  And this meant from any continuity, any property, and almost any franchise was on the table.  While everything eventually returned back to normal, and set in motion a removing continuity from DC Comics.  The DC You initiative wanted to focus more on stories than continuity, however, this was widely hated by fans, and quietly swept under the rug.   Dark Nights Metal (2017) The most recent Crisis Event depicts a bad guy, named Barbados, who seeks to leave a dark Multiverse dimension via Batman.  Upon escaping, he brings with him various other murderous and evil Batmans, led by the Batman who laughs and kicks the butts out of the regular Multiverse characters. Eventually the Multiverse heroes beat the Dark Multiverse.  This series is the first to not have any major shake-ups in the universe necessarily.     Character History: Depending on which timeline, revamp, or relaunch, the character’s history has been changed countless times to suit the needs of the writers and runners of the comic books.   The most common origin stories for Diana include: She was born of clay and brought to life as a golem by the gods She was a blessing from the gods She is the daughter of Zeus, and thus a demi-god.   All stories start with Diana being raised on Paradise Island, later renamed Themyscira, and being trained by the Amazons of the island.  She meets with Captain Steve Trevor and is brought to the world of man, either to protect it, or to act as an Emissary for Themyscira.   Diana Prince is her alias, otherwise she is Diana of Themyscira, when not known as Wonder Woman.  She is depicted as being among the best woman in the world.  Strong and powerful, but delicate and kind, smart and heroic, embodying all the greatest qualities of womanhood.    Beyond that, she is considered a part of the Holy Trinity of DC Comics, which include Superman, Batman, and herself.  She is also the first of the Three to join the Justice League, later retconed as her, Superman, and Batman creating the league together.   Her Powers include: Super Strength Super Durability Super Speed Super Agility Healing Factor Flight (Post Crisis on infinite Earths)   Beyond her Super powers she is a: Master Tactician Master Combatant Multi-Lingual Expert Pilot Possessing Great Wisdom   Equipment: Bracelets of Submission – Crafted from Zeus’s legendary Aegis Shield, Wonder Woman’s iconic bracelets act as Bracers on her arms, allowing her to deflect bullets and projectiles,including energy blasts. Lasso of Truth – a powerful rope that is capable of retraining the universes strongest beings, including Superman.  The lasso also compels people to be truthful.  The lasso has also shown healing and anti-magic properties. Golden Tiara – Wonder Woman’s headband has doubled as a boomerang on occasions, depicted as being super strong and sharp. Invisible Jet – Wonder Woman’s original mode of transportation prior to her ability to fly.  It is meant to be based on a Pegasus, but has changed from a propeller plane to a jet plane over time and publications. Sword and Shield – Since the New 52 continuity, Wonder Woman has also carried a Sword and Shield, reminiscent of gladiators in Roman times.  They’re depicted as being of similar metal to her Tiara and costume, having been crafted by the Amazonians.   Costume: Depending on the depiction, Wonder Woman’s costume has been relatively consistent over time, mirroring similar elements over the time.  Most notable changes over time have included the bottom portion going from a skirt with stars to high-cut briefs with stars, her red, strapless top depicting an eagle, later her Wonder Woman logo over the cups of the breasts.  In 2010, they decided to change her look up and gave her pants and a leather jacket.  The original look would alter return a year later in 2011, and by 2016, her look was resigned to look more gladiatorial, with an over the shoulder strap for her sword and shield, along with her a gladiatorial skirt in the form of leather strips, not unlike Xena, Warrior Princess.  This was also the version used for the Live Action movies.     Villains: Wonder Woman’s Rogue Gallery consists of a lot of Greek Gods and Mythology creatures, though has some unique villains too.  Though they all share a common element that they are all intelligent and/or doctors in some field.   Giganta – a woman who is capable of changing her shape and size, while still retaining her intelligence.   Cheetah – a woman, occasionally a man, who dresses like a Cheetah to fight Wonder Woman.  Modern takes on Cheetah have her Cheetah like characteristics and powers gifted by the plant god Urzkartaga.   Doctor Psycho – can control minds.  He’s notable for being created partly based off Marston’s college professors who opposed women’s suffrage and feminism.   Doctor Poison – a woman who uses poison to control minds, along with other effects.   Ares – The God of War, who is in direct opposition to Wonder Woman, who strives for peace around the world.   The First Born – Daughter of Hera and Zeus, he is destined to sit on Zeus’s throne.  He fights with Wonder Woman who aims to stop him.   Circe – A Sorceress with various god like powers, including mind control, creating energy blasts, teleportation, and transforming objects. She’s all known for her siren’s call that lures men to their death.   Medusa – the Gorgon with snake like hair and can turn people in to stone.   In Media: Beyond the original Comic Books, Wonder Woman has been a pop Icon for the last 80 years.  As a result, she’s been depicted in various media outside of her comic origin.   It was the famous 1975 Wonder Woman Tv Show which reintroduced Wonder Woman’s powers in the comics.  Protrayed by Lynda Carter.   Wonder Woman has been a mainstay of various animated DC properties.  Most Notably in the Super Friends Cartoons from the 70s and 80s and the DC Animated Universe cartoons that aired throughout the late 90s and early 2000s.  She’s also been a part of major Justice League Direct to Video features.    In Film, She is portrayed by Gal Gadot in Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice, Wonder Woman, and Wonder Woman 1984.

 Driving Change (DC): In many ways, you have built your career by courting controversy and critiquing the system that you're now part of. Can you tell us about that journeyTim Wilson (TW): I've gone from the experience of working in the world of ideas to what it means to be practical and to have to implement [those ideas] in terms of policy. That's been a journey. When you're in the world of ideas, or the think-tank world, you can stick with very ideological worldviews, things that are very sharp in their focus and sometimes that have an abrasive edge. Whereas the journey I went on, particularly when I was Human Rights Commissioner, and as a parliamentarian, is that you're exposed to the full complexity of humanity.What you learn when you keep your mind open is how to translate your big idea into something that's practical and saleable and connects with people in their life. That's a sustainable base to affect change. I think you become more aware, more empathetic and more human in the process of your engagement.DC: What prompted you to seek public office?TW: It came down to frustration, working in the world of ideas, or even what I was, as Human Rights Commissioner, a statutory officer of the Parliament which has the legal standing and authority to raise some really serious issues. What became obvious is that you can raise [these issues] in the public square, you can shape public debate, but in the end the decisions are made by the people in the room at the time. If you can be in that room at that time, standing up for what I would say are classical liberal values or modern liberal values, about the type of country we want to be [you can have a greater impact].I saw that, time and time again, and then ultimately the opportunity came up to represent the amazing community that I do, and I seized on that opportunity. It's been a thoroughly worthwhile journey.DC: Let's talk a little bit about the state of policymaking in Australia, which you're now charged with. People overseas often scratch their heads at Australia. On the one hand, there's this incredible economic record: 29 years of unbroken growth until the pandemic, the longest growth streak of any developed economy in the world. Australia has largely managed to avoid the very bitter partisanship that we're seeing in the US and some other places around the world. Yet Australia had six Prime Ministers in 13 years, a carousel of leaders, suggesting that something's wrong. What are the strengths of Australian policymaking that other countries could learn from, and what needs to be improved?TW: One of the things that makes Australia unique, particularly amongst Western liberal democracies, is that we have a relatively unified culture across the country. In practice, that means that most people are going on a similar journey. Yes, there are regional differences, but they're not as stark as they are in other parts of the world— say, for instance, in the United States. I'm in the Southernmost state [Victoria] which is sometimes referred to as the Massachusetts of the south. In the northern state of Queensland, our lived experiences are different. Our cultures are different, they grew up organically, but there is still a common thread of nationhood which I think binds the common values that have made policymaking more straightforward.The other thing that I think does matter is – and this will be heretical to many international audiences – we have compulsory voting. I realize that's an infringement on liberty, but what it means is everybody has ownership of the government.We don't have a debate about whether the government was legitimately elected or has a legitimate right to implement its reform agenda. Governments are elected, everybody's had their say, and as a consequence people accept the outcome.One of the great tests of democracy is not who wins and who's the victor, it's whether those who were defeated accept their defeat and accept the legitimacy of the victor. I think that's central to it.The other thing, of course, is that 29 years of uninterrupted economic growth has enabled Australia to confront many challenges. It has enabled our country to finance restructuring of the economy or parts of society and to take many people with us on the journey. Now, I'm not saying public policy in Australia is perfect, it's not. But when you can cushion the impact on people, you're able to take more people on a journey.DC: Like most other countries, due to the pandemic Australia is now facing major economic headwinds. Have we been complacent? Have we prepared for this? Do we have the right policy institutions in place?TW: We are going to face some big challenges, where we're going to have to have reforms where we won't have winners and uber-winners, we're just going to have people who benefit or see the benefit of reform.There's going to be a cost, and people are going to have to carry that cost. But not doing anything would impose an even bigger burden. Half of it is about how we get the public discussion right, how we get to a discussion where people understand that there's a cost to inaction. I think that is going to be a problem.The other thing is, we've built in a lot of welfare and support measures to cushion the impact of previous reforms. The trade-off from that now is there's quite a lot of financial fat in our welfare system. We're going to have to become leaner and more agile in the way we operate the country.I'd still rather work from a position of strength and find a way to slim down than already have significant debt burdens and not have many support measures while trying to address the issues of a globally competitive environment.DC: Responding to the pandemic is requiring difficult conversations with constituents and the public about the trade-offs involved. How are you seeing this playing out? What needs to happen? How should policymakers go about communicating these trade-offs and the risks involved?TW: Part of it, unfortunately, is going to require people to experience the consequences of the Covid recession. At the start of the pandemic Australia, because of its relative bounty, was able to cushion the impact— particularly through wage subsidy programs that carried many people through a crisis that's nearly unprecedented in our history.But until people feel the consequences of the economic crisis, I think it'll be hard to make the case for reform. The Economist once wrote of Australia that we're a “country that's not very good at managing prosperity but we're very good in crisis.” When we are confronted with a crisis, when we understand the nature of the problem and that the impact is human, then people will accept that there is a need for change to build a more sustainable future for the country.I think this is a good time to be prosecuting ideas, particularly around how you restructure the economy to make it more liberal and more dynamic and fit for the 21st century. It's going to require that lived human experience of Australians to accept that, but I do believe once they do [experience a recession], they will [accept the case for economic reform].DC: There have been quite a few different policy approaches to managing the pandemic in Australia. As in the US, state governments have responsibility for many aspects of public health and other [policy areas] pertinent to the crisis. What are some of the different approaches that Australian states have taken and what are your views on them?TW: Different states have taken quite radically different approaches based largely on the attitude of the governments they elect. In my state of Victoria, we have a Labor government, which would be seen as a left-wing Democrat-style government in much of the United States or other countries. They've approached [the pandemic] by empowering themselves through the centralization of power, implementing giant lockdowns across the whole of a state, and then deciding which sectors they're prepared to open. They're empowering themselves at the expense of citizens.The state of New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, has a Liberal or Centre-right government, and took a completely different approach. They looked at how to empower citizens to take responsibility but understood that the government's responsibility is to articulate the case about what needs to be restricted and to justify it.You see two very different models of governance. One is [based on] high centralization where the citizen has to justify their behaviour to the government – which is the social democratic tradition – and [the other is based on] the liberal democratic tradition, where the government has to justify why it is restricting people's liberties and the terms on which they're doing it.Consequently, Victoria was in lockdown for about six months continuously, with huge detriment to the economy, to livelihoods and to people's health and welfare. In New South Wales it's been the complete reverse. Their health circumstances aren't identical, but their approach is radically different.DC: As we come out of this emergency phase, how do we ensure that some of the rights and freedoms which most people willingly gave up as part of the public health response are protected in the long term? What does an ongoing response to the crisis look like in terms of balancing rights with the public health response?TW: We don't have a bill of rights. In fact, the state of Victoria, which has had some of the harshest measures, has the most rigid legislative Charter of Rights [among Australia's states]. That was completely discarded once the pandemic started.It says something about the fact that people were prepared to trade [rights] away and weren't prepared to stand up for them when they were under attack.I think that the best approach is to adopt the one that New South Wales has taken, which is to understand that the government has a job to do. We know that the pandemic poses very serious health risks, particularly to the elderly and people with immunosuppressant conditions. But the trade-off should be that the government should then have to justify proportionally why what they're trying to do is necessary to protect people's lives.Things like face masks I have no problem with, and I don't think they're a big deal. You can see the proportional relationship between the imposition, or the denial of people's liberty, and the outcome in terms of public health. Whereas with other measures, like Victoria's curfew, there was no evidence: in fact, the Chief Health Officer said there was no evidence or public health need for it to be implemented.I think it's about getting that sense of balance and proportionality right and understanding that the government has to justify the restrictions and the citizens shouldn't have to defend their freedoms.DC: You talk in your new book about the need for a new social contract. This is a topic which is currently rising up the political agenda around the world. Why? And what do you think is uniquely Australian in the need for a new social contract?TW: I think there's some fundamental generational imbalances in the structures of our society. I wrote The New Social Contract because we're seeing issues around young people feeling dispossessed or not being able to realize their full opportunity.Now, this is not a unique threat to Australia. It's the same in the United States and the United Kingdom— around the cost of education, limited employment opportunities after the global economic crisis, and of course now this is going to be compounded by Covid-19.But we also see it in things like house prices. Loose monetary policy has led to asset price inflation, which has been good for people like me who own their own home or own assets, [but has been] at the expense of young people wanting to get opportunities.We need to have a conversation about what is an intergenerationally just society. For me that is one where older people are able to secure what they have, but don't get preference for their years of effort and labor and won't skewer [young people's] opportunity.You can create a more inclusive society that moves forward together yet can make quite substantial reform to promote home ownership, to level out tax rates, to remove tax complications and to build what is essentially, in the classical sense, a more liberal, democratic society that's open for everybody. And a more dynamic capitalism too.DC: It sounds like you could write a sequel, ‘intergenerational equity after the pandemic.' It is only getting worse at the moment, right?TW: That's right. I wrote the book mostly pre-Covid and warned that Australia's intergenerational tension was ready to pop as soon as we had an economic crisis. [The pandemic] just started when I was concluding the book and it's now quite obvious that this is a problem.We have sacrificed opportunity for younger Australians, as many other countries have for their younger populations, to secure the health and welfare of their older populations. This is only exacerbating an already existing trend. This trend is prevalent in popular culture here, as it is elsewhereIt's particularly a problem when the systems of governance, tax and ownership structurally work against young people being able to get ahead. We need to address it. Covid-19 is only compounding it. The book was written for the 2020s in the expectation that a lot of the problems I was outlining would be revealed in 2030. In fact, I would argue that the clock is now ticking, that they're already present and the sort of political crisis that will follow the health and economic crisis will probably hit closer to 2025DC: If you were going back to the very beginning of your career, what advice would you give yourself?TW: Never be afraid. One of the things about the contest of ideas is that the worst anybody can do is demonize and criticize you – but it actually has no lasting effect. Particularly in the modern age where people seem to throw around verbitude without any sense of restraint or responsibility, it is really important to stand up for what you believe in and do it with a sense of conviction and passion.Ultimately, timidity is in surplus in the world. Courage is rare. The more you stand up, the more you can affect change in whatever position you are in. You also, frankly, encourage other people to stand up.There are other people who will read to scripts or learn off the ideas of others. The people who genuinely have ideas, are genuinely prepared to prosecute them and communicate not just the idea, but their passion and commitment to it with sincerity, ultimately win the day.Note: This conversation has been edited lightly for clarity and context

Michael Spence (MS): The economic outlook is a little grim and tough in the short to medium run. There are two things going on. One is the pandemic, which forced us to conduct experiments in the economy that we normally would have conducted at a much slower pace. And some of those experiments are going to result in learning that changes the whole pattern of work - maybe more working from home, maybe a lot more collaboration, and maybe less international travel.  But the flip side is that the pandemic economy both domestically and internationally has suffered an adverse shock with respect to distribution. I looked at a study done at the University of Chicago by a couple of professors early on in the pandemic, and they asked the question, “What fraction of work can be done at home in the United States?” Their answer is (an approximation, because they did it really quickly) was one-third. They also looked at it by geography and then by sector, which is really striking, ranging from around 80% in the tech and financial sectors down to 4% in hospitality, which we've had to mostly shut down in the pandemic. Then there's a serious question that none of us knows the answer to: how fast they can come back? That, I think, depends primarily not on policy so much as how fast we can get the pandemic under control, meaning the prevalence down to the point that people's risk aversion doesn't cause them simply not to go places. And that looks like it is a process that varies across countries. The Chinese have done it more aggressively using tools, including digital ones, that we are not willing to use. And in the west, it is pretty clear the process is not going well. Certainly, there are a set of sectors that are going to struggle to come back.Driving Change (DC): Let's talk first about Europe versus America, where different approaches were taken to the question of, “Can we keep people in jobs for as long as possible, and hope that we come through the pandemic with as much of the existing economy and workforce in place that when things do start to grow, again, we're not having to rebuild from scratch?” How are those experiments and different policies playing out?MS: There are real differences, but the similarity is that everybody basically decided they had to buffer the economy, meaning the household sector and lots of businesses that weren't going to make it. The shock - and most people don't think of it this way - is to the balance sheet. There are a bunch of parts of every economy where the people's balance sheets are fragile and thin enough that they are not much of a shock absorber. So what governments in general have done, basically, is run big deficits and transfer some fairly substantial amount to the sovereign balance sheet, where it's not perfect, but certainly easier to manage. After that, it gets more complicated. In the United States, we had a bunch of programs and unemployment insurance, which is not new, we had programs to support businesses keeping people on and so on. The Europeans were further down that road well before the pandemic, having used this kind of technique in the great financial crisis of 2008/09 and even before, most obviously in Germany and some of the northern countries. But it is also true in Italy, where I live some of the time, which has a program that's similar, where the state absorbs some of the costs. What these economies do is encourage businesses to partner with the state, basically to redistribute the costs around. So jobs get slimmed down, but fewer people are unemployed - they kind of spread the work around. I think that is actually a pretty sensible way to do it. But it is hard to implement. So if you haven't put such a scheme in place beforehand, you can't you can't snap your fingers and get it done overnight.DC: So do you think that America is going to suffer from prolonged higher rates of unemployment because it hasn't had that kind of job sharing scheme? Or at some point, as the furloughs and other job-sharing schemes reach their time limits and stop in Europe, will the unemployment rate there eventually soar too?MS: Yes, we have too many variables! I would say that, if you held everything else constant, American unemployment would be higher. But there are elements in the American economy that might produce faster growth. Where I am in Italy, we have grown essentially negligibly since the year 2000. So that factors in as well. While I'm not wildly pessimistic, I think there are going to be pockets of real distress, people in sectors that really do struggle to come back. That will make unemployment higher than we would like. Especially as it will be a struggle to move those people into other sectors as the economy recovers. There will be a challenge of structural transition of a certain type.DC: There's an ongoing debate about what shape the economic recovery will be: V, W, square root shaped, even a K, where half the economy goes up and the other half goes down. What is your default prediction for how the economy grows from here?MS: The square root is the one that's been used most often in the United States, or as the French call it, the wing of a bird. So you get a sudden very big contraction across countries, then you get a flat period where you're trying to get the virus under control. (I'm speaking now mostly about the developed countries just for a moment.) And then you get things that can come back fairly rapidly, so you get something that starts to look like the start of a W after the after the trough. And then you get ones where the headwinds are a lot bigger, like international air travel: I don't know when people are going to feel safe and comfortable doing that or when all of the bilateral international restrictions are removed (which doesn't look like it will be very fast). So you go down, back up fairly fast, and then start to level out: that's where the square root square root idea comes from. I think that pattern is a reasonable guess.DC: In terms of job creation, normally economists would say just get the economy growing again. Is that the right policy at this point? Or is there more that can be done beyond the stimulus packages there have been so far?MS: The thing we lost track of in America is that the other best thing you can do is get the pandemic under control. I think the differences we see across countries are mainly attributable to that. So a widely available vaccine, provided people actually have it administered to them, would produce a V very quickly, but there's hurdles, even there. I'm appalled at surveys that I read, that a third of the people say they are unwilling to have the vaccine injected. I'm not terribly aggressive about this, but there's a balance between individual freedoms and rights on the one hand and collective interests. My friend, Mohamed El-Erian, put it well. He said, in finance, everybody knows what counterparty risk is. And, if it is big enough, the system stops because nobody trusts the other party. What we have now is individual human counterparty risk: as long as the prevalence of the virus is pretty high, everybody is a risk to everybody else. So we need to do things that reduce that risk, to restore confidence that you can safely engage in ordinary economic activity, like riding the subway to work, and stuff like that. We'll talk more about China later - but China uses digital tools in a way that we probably can't, because of concerns about data and privacy and even trust in the government. So the Chinese are walking around with mobile health certificates that are color coded. So if you're in circulation in China that means that a system powered by a fair amount of data thinks that your probability of being infectious is relatively low. We basically can't do that. Put it into crude terms: we are all yellow.DC: To what extent has a mask become a sort of proxy for that? If people are wearing masks, does that overcome the counterparty risk sufficiently that normal life can resume some extent?MS: It certainly helps. I'm no expert on the medical and epidemiological side of this. Social distancing, I think, is helpful. Being outside is certainly helpful. It seems pretty clear that the most dangerous situation is lots of people in an enclosed space with poor ventilation. So if you're outside, you're not gathering in large crowds, and you're wearing a mask, while it is not a perfect substitute for what we were just talking about, it certainly helps if everybody complies.DC: You brought up China. It started there, but they got on top of it pretty quickly. What is the economy doing in China? What happened to job losses and then job creation after they started to get the pandemic under control? And what does that tell us about what might happen elsewhere?MS: China's recovering pretty quickly. It basically took the hit in the first quarter, mainly, whereas we took the hit in the early part of the second quarter. So they are ahead of us. But because they were so aggressive about it, they literally locked down a whole city of 11m people and didn't let anybody go in and out, China is looking more like a V shaped recovery. But even there, you know, there are sectors that are going to be stubborn with respect to recovery. And China is still an economy, like many others, that is dependent on the state of the rest of the global economy. And there's nothing they can do about that except live with it. So it's a faster recovery than we're seeing in some other places, but it's not just snapping back.DC: We have been talking mostly about the developed economies. What are you seeing in the developing economies? Does this set back the path of development for a lifetime?MS: I think it does, for a while. So if you think of the resources the developed countries went into this with, we're richer, our balance sheets are a little bigger. The sovereign fiscal space is bigger in developed countries than in than in many developing countries. And the medical situation is, they have less capacity. In terms of the kind of basic economic policy tools that you need to use, they are less well armed. If you look at the tracking data for India, the economy is coming back but it's coming back with the virus still growing at a pretty rapid rate. I'm not sure the data are all that good to make significant comparisons across, especially, the poorer countries, but what I'm worried about is that the health/ livelihood trade-off is much starker in the poorer parts of developing countries, or in just plain poor developing countries, and that they'll be forced open up the economy, and then just have to accept the consequences in terms of health, because the alternative, which is locking down the economy for extended period, is worse. That's not necessarily an economic catastrophe. But it's not something that from a health and human welfare standpoint you would wish to see. A vaccine, or some other therapeutic that really works, if it's widely available, would help. There is some international support on all those fronts, medical, financial, and so on. But I don't think it is big enough to blunt the blow to a number of countries.DC: If so, will they continue to be isolated from the global economy, to some extent?MS: They will and they will have to deal too with the unknown consequences of a fragmenting global international infrastructure. For much of the postwar period, these poor countries lived under the big multilateral tent that the United States and others built. It was an important opportunity for growth for many of them - and they still need it, especially the poorer countries. So we don't know, at this point, whether tensions between the US and China and other tensions - Europe is not getting along all that well with China right now, either - will produce some kind of fragmentation that diminishes the opportunity for smaller developing countries, I'm not saying the whole thing is collapsing, to the point that the opportunities are gone, but it is getting there. The other thing they have to deal with is that digital technology is moving so fast, in the area of automation, vision, robotics, and so on. Labor-intensive process-oriented manufacturing as a source of competitive advantage may not be as powerful a driver of the export side of growth as it was in the past. That means not that the global economy is unimportant, but that they have to invent or discover other ways of leveraging the global economy, other sources of comparative advantage.DC: So the old Chinese model of making lots of cheap stuff for the West is not going to work anymore?MS: I think a lot of countries are hoping that the baton will get passed, and the opportunity won't collapse so fast that that it cuts them off. But it looks like it is at least a threat.DC: So we have these two big policy challenges in terms of what we do about the future workforce and getting people jobs. One is the pandemic-related concern about industries where there's high human counterparty risk, as you put it: tourism, travel, etc. The other is where these digital trends have been accelerated by everyone being stuck at home. What policies should governments be adopting to deal with those two quite different shocks in terms of equipping people to get back to work?MS: You are right. They are different. I don't think there's a magic bullet, other than vaccines, that are a substitute for getting the virus under control. So on that one, I'm pretty clear. If you are in an industry that is reliant on basically having trust and low human counterparty risk, such as tourism, your only strategy is to convince potential visitors that it's a virus-free safe place, and you have to convince domestic folks that it's safe to let them in.On the other one, digital and jobs, the lion's share of the discussion, which is not misguided, has to do with really ramping up our capacity for helping people change what they do, their skills and so on. Actually, digital tools are showing, partly as a result of the pandemic experience, that they're really quite useful in doing that. But we are going to need more collaboration that involves business, educational institutions and government. You know, we thought that before and it's even more true now, but can we get it done?DC: What do you have in mind, specifically?MS: Everybody has pieces of the puzzle, right? Businesses know how their business model is evolving and they have a pretty good sense of what skills they need. Armed with the right tools, they can be pretty good educators or partners with educational institutions to get the job done. There's a reasonable amount of evidence that done at a local level, with state governments or local institutions, that these partnerships actually kind of work. A second piece of the puzzle, that nobody I know, is wildly enthusiastic about, is the current scattershot approach to international relations and international trade. We could have a strategy for dealing with China and for dealing with international trade and institutions and so on. We know all that has to change; we are not going to go back to where we were before. That strategy could include domestic employment, around where jobs reside geographically. Done stupidly, that doesn't really help, but done smartly, I think it could. The part that seems to me hard I wrote about recently. In the publicly-traded equity markets, an increasing part of the value that is being created is in is being created by intangible capital. And the entities that are creating it are doing it with a relatively small number of employees. If you stand back from it – and I'm overstating it for simplicity - employment is diverging from value creation measured in that way. Then you ask the question, “Who owns that capital?” The answer is, it is a highly concentrated set of people at the upper end of the wealth distribution, and a bunch of institutions. I think, to fully solve this problem, we are going to have to figure out a way to have broader participation in value creation, the turbocharged parts of the economic value creation process. We don't have that now; actually, nobody has it. This is a challenge that no country I know of has actually addressed effectively. DC: This crisis has brought about an acceleration of a lot of the trends towards greater concentration of wealth amongst a small part of the population. As you say, this does open up some very big questions. Firstly, if most people aren't going to be in jobs that are high in value creation, or there won't be any jobs at all, do we need to provide some kind of universal basic income or equivalent of that to keep people in a decent standard of living? And do we need much heavier taxation of the wealth - and how easy would that be to do politically and practically? Is there a need for nationalizing chunks of the value creating part of the economy, maybe into a common or sovereign wealth fund of some kind?MS: Well, these are things that, if you get them wrong, can really screw up the economy. On the other hand, the trajectory of the distribution of balance sheets in the economy is not very promising from the point of view of political and social cohesion. I think the most promising avenue to explore (and I don't want to pretend that this is a worked-out solution), is to have the public broadly, maybe through the government, be passive owners of the growing parts of the economy. DC: How would it be different from more taxation, the traditional way that we've done that?MS: Given the outcome of the election, I think we're going to do more taxation. But I think exploring this other avenue as a complement to that is a worthwhile idea. We've discussed bits and pieces of this. The late James Tobin put forward a widely discussed, but not implemented, proposal to finance college essentially with loans you pay back based on what you later earn. You would basically pre-commit to a very small fraction of your future income. So people who become artists and musicians, for instance, those who become fabulously wealthy would pay a lot, while others who go into the nonprofit sector and do a lot for their fellow human beings wouldn't pay so much. The mechanics of these things need to be worked out. There's all kinds of moral hazard and other problems that have to be thought through. But I think this is the right time for creativity in these dimensions, as well as the responsible, effective use of the existing tax system.DC: Are you optimistic that we are going to see that? People have been aware for years of the threat that digital posed to a lot of traditional jobs, traditional middle-class employment. Yet there didn't seem to be much policy reaction to that. Might the pandemic shock the world's governments into doing something more ambitious and creative?MS: It depends on where you are, I think, because the exact challenge varies. In the United States, we still have reasonably powerful engines for generating innovative new economic activity, and we don't want to destroy those. But we need to address the problem that a significant subset of the population feels, with some good reason, that they were abandoned over the last few decades, and they don't - I'm going to put this mildly - like their leaders, and the people on the coasts. and so on. It's a little hard to see that, regardless of electoral outcomes, turning into something that, at least in the short run, looks like a constructive dialogue about how to achieve inclusiveness. I'm just trying to be realistic. In Europe, at least on digital, the challenge perceived here is that the industry is way behind. They need more platform companies, they need a cloud computing system, that goes along with their policies with respect to data. They need opportunities for very talented, innovative young people to build companies with supportive ecosystems around them, so they don't have to go to New York or California. So the challenge is to modernize, digitize and get to somewhere near the forefront of innovation. And that has consequences for growth. This is a slightly different perception of the challenges in Europe, which if you look at Gini coefficients, is a more egalitarian operation. It is not exempt from the pressures that we've seen in the United States. David Autor and others have documented that job and income polarization to varying degrees is occurring across a broad swath of the developed world. But we've had policies in Europe that have muted the impacts of that to a greater extent than, say, in the UK or the US.DC: Europe hasn't had a great record of catching up on these sort of innovation deficits. In two or three years, however we think about the relative effectiveness of the policy response to the pandemic in America and Europe, how likely is it that America will emerge with stronger economic prospects than Europe for the decades ahead?MS: People in Europe are a little more optimistic because of the new emergency fund financed with European debt. They are saying this is the first time, unlike in the great financial crisis, that Europe has taken the position that we're in this together, as opposed to “If you're in trouble, it's your fault, get out of it”. It remains to be seen if that turns into more momentum on a broader front. Europe's economy is still fragmented. It needs European level institutions - not bureaucratic ones, but ones that really pump energy into the system. This is bottom line: Europe is pretty far behind.DC: What is the number one policy recommendation you have for policymakers around the world as they think about how to give their people the best chance of getting good work in the years ahead? MS: On the work question, I would first get the virus under control. We need to recognize we have a common problem and cooperate with each other on finding solutions to the pandemic, including technological ones, and then focus on skills, job creation and retraining.

Ndidi Nwuneli (NN): We have 10 years to achieve UN Sustainable Development Goal 2, zero hunger, yet it is 2020 and we have actually seen almost a doubling of food insecurity around the world. Instead of getting better, our indices are getting worse, not only around malnutrition, but obesity, and all the related diseases.Our focus is on the role of private sector as the engine of growth and change. We believe private sector has to take a lead in innovation, catalytic financing, and addressing zero hunger by leveraging innovation and technology. We've convened about 20 amazing speakers, like Dr Rajiv Shah of the Rockefeller Foundation; Dr Agnes Kalibata, the UN Special Envoy on the food system summit; Lawrence Haddad, the ED of GAIN, the global alliance to improve nutrition; and last, but definitely not least, Dr Akinwumi Adesina, the president of the African Development Bank. I'm looking forward to a very exciting and engaging summit, and we have over 2000 people registered, so it's going to be really interesting to see how private sector actors across Africa and across the world can collaborate to address zero hungerDriving Change (DC): The outside world has often looked at Africa both as a source of food and also as a place beset by a very inefficient, sometimes catastrophically so, food ecosystem. Give us a sense of how Africa is catching up, or could catch up, with the rest of the world in terms of its food system, particularly through that lens of ending hungerNN: So Africa is naturally endowed with agricultural abundance. There's no reason why we're a net importer of food or wine, or why one out of every three African children is stunted. And, like you said, it's really hinged on policies, fragmented ecosystems, histories of focus on primary production instead of processing, and a really disjointed ecosystem that is plagued with challenges around infrastructure, access to water, energy, and roads, which make our value chains very uncompetitive.Now what new technology and innovation allow us to do is to leapfrog. And as you know, Africa has embraced cell phones and digital ag in way that other regions have not. Over 600m Africans will have access to a cell phone by the end of 2025. And we can leverage cell phones, not only to get access to data for weather patterns, or access to markets, but also to train our farmers and provide ongoing support. So there is an opportunity to leapfrog and an opportunity for Africa to demonstrate how to do it the right wayThe rest of the world went through a very unhealthy pattern of agriculture, which contributed to the climate change crisis we currently face. There is a unique opportunity for African farmers, Africa's private secto, and policymakers to collaborate to ensure that we learn from the mistakes of other regions and embrace technology and innovation and collaborate across food ecosystem to build back better and also to leapfrogI spent the last year writing a book called “Food Entrepreneurs in Africa: Scaling Resilient Agriculture Businesses”, learning from those entrepreneurs who have scaled on this continent. I really believe that we can address the food insecurities that currently face us and we can also ensure that we can feed ourselves and feed the world. I believe that in the next 10 years, we can transform this food ecosystem, working in our countries, working in our regions and then collaborating globally, to take on key challenges for our current food ecosystem and address them collaboratively.DC: So what are the two or three highest priorities, the things that need to be changed in order to make that possible?NN: There are two key interventions required. The first is that we need investment in catalytic financing. And we need a whole range of options when it comes to patient capital that comes in at every point of the value chain to address the huge ecosystem challenges, bottlenecks across the entire ecosystem. We need to mobilize that capital locally, from pension funds on the continent, from our private sector investors, from our philanthropists. But we also need to galvanize funding from the rest of the worldI really believe that you can make money on the African continent in the food ecosystem, I mean, we have currently 1.2bn people; by 2050 2.4bn people. Everybody needs to eat three times a day. And we can de-risk investment in agriculture and food by partnering with insurance providers, partnering with public sector officials who can provide them the risk  capital as well.The second intervention is policies. We need an enabling policy environment, we need an ecosystem approach when it comes to policy, and we need to stop working in silos. We need to design ecosystems that workWhen I think about these ecosystems, and the actors required to build back better and streamline policies, it is actors in food and agriculture, actors in health and nutrition, gender, climate, financing, innovation and technology infrastructure. Each of our countries, at the local state, federal and regional levels, needs to have these actors sit together to plan for the future.DC: How is catalytic capital different from traditional aid or traditional investment in AfricNN: There are a broad range of financing options available, but when you come with catalytic financing it is patient; it is tailor made to the particular investment opportunity; and it doesn't just look at financial returns, it looks at social returns. And to be catalytic, it picks investment opportunities that can serve as triggers for other actors in the ecosystem.DC: You mentioned the book you have been working on. Can you give us one inspiring example that gives readers a sense of what is now possible in Africa in terms of entrepreneurshipNN: here's There are so many examples, so many. If I have to pick just one, there's a company in Kenya called Twiga Foods. It actually started off as a company that was going to be exporting bananas to the Middle East, and quickly realized that we needed to set standards for the fruit industry in Kenya to be able to meet international demand. And what they then did was ask, “How can we leverage technology to connect our farmers to small retailers in the city of Nairobi?” They essentially figured we have cell phones, we're going to connect farmers directly. They built a whole supply chain of farmers, helping the farmers meet their standards. So now, within 14 hours, a small retailer can order fresh fruit and it will be delivered to the small retailerNow they are serving 14,000 retailers, and they're working with hundreds and hundreds of farmers. They've raised $16m and are expanding rapidly. Not only have they improved the lives of the farmers who are now earning more money, because you've cut out all the different glitches in the value chain, they're also ensuring that retailers have access to fresh produce. And the customer has fresher food and a healthier lifestyle. So the entire chain is more efficient, more transparent, they're getting lots of data. They are enabling the leapfrogging that we talked about. During this COVID-19 era, where we're all forced to embrace technology in ways that we never did before, this company was already ahead of the curveThat's just one example, but there are so many examples of companies, from seed systems, to commercializing great research, to improving, nutritious food. I'm so inspired by these entrepreneurs who are at the cutting edge of what is possible and inspire us to see what is possible in our own ecosystemDC: You have been working on an entrepreneurial project of your own, Nourish Africa. Tell us a bit about how that is goingNN: So we started Nourishing Africa because we felt this is a $1 trillion industry in Africa and that entrepreneurs should be growing their businesses, scaling up, yet many of them lack access to data, to financing capacity, support networks. So Nourishing Africa is a one stop shop for entrepreneurs who are going to transform the African agricultural landscape. We're providing all the support the data, the knowledge, the capacity support they require. Our vision is a million entrepreneurs on the platform. So I tell people, it's Facebook, LinkedIn, and WebEx, all wrapped together for African entrepreneurs in food and agricultureWhat we're so excited about is that it has taken on a life of its own. I meet people who say I'm part of Nourishing Africa, I've benefited from Nourishing Africa. Right now we have over 650 active entrepreneurs and agri businesses on the platform. We have been able to connect them to funding and networks, amplify their voices and change their narratives. And we are gradually growing. We have entrepreneurs from 34 countries, which is so exciting, and partners across the board. It shows you what ecosystem solutions can do. When you gather people together, you amplify their voice: they can shape policy, they can learn, they can grow. And they can trade with each other and network with each other to create more wealth, work together to solve problems that affect them and affect others in their communities.DC: Let's turn to COVID. How is Africa coming through this crisis?NN: A lot of people expected Africa to really be hit by this health crisis. In the beginning, there was a lot of fear. But Africa has not been hit by the health crisis in the magnitude the West has. What we have been hit by is the economic crisis, which has set back some of our countries 30 years. Nigeria is experiencing a recession. I don't think we've had one this deep in about 20 years. Many other countries are facing that negative GDP growth wave.There's a sense of urgency for all of us to figure out how to work collaboratively to grow the economy to create jobs. We have also been hit by declines in remittances. As you know, many in the African diaspora, who used to send money home. are affected by COVID, especially the job losses in the countries they are living.You see statistics like 57% of household income spent on food, when we've experienced an inflation rate of 17% in the last four months. That means that the average family cannot have access to nutritious food, and definitely cannot enjoy three meals a day.So what does that mean for us? As actors in the food ecosystem, we have to not only push for innovation and technology, we have to lead the way on what is possible.I spent the last few months as the coordinator of a visioning exercise for Nigeria, for 2021- 26, 26-30 and then to 2050. This has been an exciting opportunity to say how can we build back better. Agriculture will serve as a great, great opportunity for building back better because, as I mentioned, we are naturally endowed with agricultural abundance. It's going to take bold action, decisive action. It's also going to take leaders who can see a better future and a new way of doing things. For this visioning exercise I'm working with a group of 25 people appointed by the government to change the narrative. We are already coming up with very tangible and implementable actions at the national level and at a regional levelDC: One of the inspirations for Driving Change is our desire to inspire many more talented people to go into public policy, into public service – to be a new generation of inspired, servant leaders. Leadership in Africa is a big passion of yours – you founded LEAP Africa nearly 20 years ago, to encourage better leadership. How do you see the leadership challenge in Africa today?NN: I share your conviction that leadership is critical for any transformation to occur. What we've been doing, at least over the last 18-19 years, is about creating the next generation of principled, dynamic, credible leaders in Africa. LEAP itself stands for leadership, effectiveness, accountability, and professionalism. Africa desperately needs these four attributes, and so does the rest of the worldOne of the things we do at LEAP is work on changing mindsets – which is what is needed all over the world right now. The concept of leadership has been distorted. At LEAP we teach that a leader is an individual who has a vision for positive change and galvanizes others to affect that vision, to impact the lives of peopleSo from when I started LEAP to this day, it has become ever clearer that we need a concept of integrity, that character has currency, and that authenticity is critical to effective leadership. That mindset shift is where we start. What we teach young people and what we teach entrepreneurs is that leadership is an act, not a position. It is what you do that defines your leadership, not the positions you have.We also distinguish between leaders and rulers. And there is a difference between those right now in Africa and across the world. We must not confuse the two. There's a leader, there's a ruler. And just because you have a title that does not make you a leader. So what we try to do with that program is help young people actually start initiatives to affect positive change in society. Through these initiatives they build their leadership muscles. They have started social change project in their communities, in their country. And I'm proud to say that many of our alums are leading today in the public and private sector, and they have a tangible impact on the lives of people.Now we work in six African countries. What gives me hope is that you can start with a group of people and create an army of change agents. We need enough people who believe this, who live it, and who can effect change one person at a time, one community at a timeThere's a quote from JFK, which I used to post on our walls when we started LEAP. It is about a pebble, a pebble that creates a ripple, which creates a wave, which can pull down the mightiest walls of oppression.I'm still an optimist that we can create those waves of social change in our community, in the health sector, in the food sector, in the governance sector across the board, creating those waves that will push down some of the mightiest walls of oppression that we continue to face. That's what gives me hope. That's what gets me excited every day as I embark on fighting some of the causes that I've taken on in my lifetimeDC: What a fantastically optimistic note to end on. Thank you, Ndidi, for talking with Driving Change. 

DCOCD is the DC Comics events podcast, where we look at every DC event in chronological order from Crisis on Infinite Earths to... we're not quite sure yet. it’s 2016 and full-blown war has broken out against and amongst the Robins. Who’s being a Tim? Who’s being a Damian? Who’s being a Jason? And above all, who’s being a Dick? Find out in the biggest event of the DC You era: ROBIN WAR. It’s from creators Tom King, Tim Seeley, Ray Fawkes, Scott Lobdell, Will Pfeiffer, Lee Bemejo, Patrick Gleason, Kary Randolph, Alain Mauricet, Jorge Corona, Andres Guinaldo, Walden Wong, Mikel Janin, Steve Pugh, Carmine Di Giandomenico, Scott McDaniel, Micuel Mendonica, Adam Archer, Javier Fernandez, Alvaro Martinez, Raul Fernandez, Andy Owens, Calos Mangul, Tom Napolitano, Emilio Lopez, Chris Sotomayor, Gabriel Eltaeb, Sandra Molina, Mat Lopes and Mark Doyle. Paul is joined by Tom Panarese and Rob Myers to discuss, dissect and score this event. If you have thoughts, opinions, encouragement or issues, please feel free to contact us via the comments section on this post or at DCOCDCast@gmail.com and on twitter @DCOCDCast KEEP ON EVENTING! Intro/Outro music: Little Bird - Annie Lennox

You may not think that TikTok is where your average chiropractor hangs out. But Dr Cody Hanish is not your average chiropractor. The Sydney based practitioner and founder of Combined Clinics in Sydney’s Darlinghurst has a whopping 2.2M followers on the social channel - and all thanks to his somewhat mesmerising videos of joint cracking - or ‘adjustments’ as he calls them. If you’re suffering from an aching back, or stiff shoulders, he’s also got some very doable ways to stay agile and pain-free while working from home. You can find Dr Hanish in Instagram and TikTok at @drcody_dcYou can join the conversation, or drop us a question, via the Healthy-ish Australia Facebook page,here.If you’re up for funny memes and health inspo follow Body+Soul on Instagram at @bodyandsoul_auOr, head to bodyandsoul.com.au for your daily digital dose of health and wellness. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Of Music and Men is a story, so it's best to start listening at episode one. This episode is a bonus Q&A episode during our brief hiatus.In this episode, Kayona answers questions like...How do you do it technically?What’s the hardest thing about doing this podcast? What podcasts inspire this one? What are you watching on TV?What's your favorite spot in DC?You try your best to be an optimist. How? And Why?Music for this episode is "Superstar" by Soybsoybmusic@gmail.comsoyb.bandcamp.com@soybmusicyoutube.com/channel/UCllLIkIEh828Vr6bnlmcOyQopen.spotify.com/artist/4mP52oJWDHbV3InZTcljknfacebook.com/SoybMusicinstagram.com/iamsoyb

Hey Animation family!Hope everyone is practicing social distancing and staying healthy! In this episode we talk with Animator and Indie Filmmaker Chris Wade. We discuss his animation journey, working as a freelance animator for government jobs, animation testing in mobile games and explainer videos, and garnering an animation network online.This is our second remote interview, hope you are ready to learn from an animator working in Washington, DCYou can find Chris Wade on Twitter:https://twitter.com/ItsmeChrisWade Be in the know on everything BNA by following the social medias... and WEBSITE! blacknanimated@gmail.com - email  http://blacknanimated.com/  - website  @blacknanimated - twitter / Instagram 

The DC Daily cast sorts through the top stories from around the world of DC, including the first photos of the Batmobile from The Batman, the just-announced premiere date for Stargirl, and updates on the DCYou Unscripted pilots for DC Universe. Plus, they recommend their favorite female-led DC properties in honor of Women’s History Month. Prepare to enter the Multiverse!

On the latest episode of the DC Comics News Podcast, the DCN crew discuss all the happenings in the world of DC, including the official start of production for The Batman, DC Universe ordering 3 pilots from DC You Unscripted talent pool, Snyder & Capullo's next big event, and lots more news! So sit back, and enjoy! Brad Filicky: www.twitter.com/filickyb1 Kelly Gaines: www.twitter.com/KelGainesWrite Seth Singleton: www.twitter.com/1MoreSingleton Steve J Ray: www.twitter.com/el_steevo Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or Google Play, and if you like what you hear, please give us a 5-star rating and review! Follow us on social media: Facebook: www.facebook.com/DCComicsNews Twitter: www.twitter.com/DCComicsNews Instagram: www.instagram.com/DCComicsNews Tumblr: www.tumblr.com/DCComicsNews

If you work in Kubernetes, cloud native, or any other fast-moving ecosystem, you might have found that keeping up to date with new developments can be incredibly challenging. We think this as well, and so we decided to make today’s episode a tribute to that challenge, as well as a space for sharing the best resources and practices we can think of to help manage it. Of course, there are audiences in this space who require information at various levels of depth, and fortunately the resources to suit each one exist. We get into the many different places we go in order to receive information at each part of the spectrum, such as SIG meetings on YouTube, our favorite Twitter authorities, the KubeWeekly blog, and the most helpful books out there. Another big talking point is the idea of habits or practices that can be helpful in consuming all this information, whether it be waiting for the release notes of a new version, tapping into different TLDR summaries of a topic, streaming videos, or actively writing posts as a way of clarifying and integrating newly learned concepts. In the end, there is no easy way, and passionate as you may be about staying in tune, burnout is a real possibility. So whether you’re just scratching the cloud native surface or up to your eyeballs in base code, join us for today’s conversation because you’re bound to find some use in the resources we share. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Olive Power Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: Audiences and different levels of depth that our guests/hosts follow Kubernetes at. What ‘keeping up’ means: merely following news, or actually grasping every new concept? The impossibility of truly keeping up with Kubernetes as it becomes ever more complex. Patterns used to keep up with new developments: the TWKD website, release notes, etc. Twitter’s helpful provision of information, from opinions to tech content, all in one place. How helpful Cindy Sridharan is on Twitter in her orientation toward distributed systems. The active side of keeping up such as writing posts and helping newcomers. More helpful Twitter accounts such as InfoSec. How books provide one source of deep information as opposed to the noise on Twitter. Books: Programming Kubernetes; Managing Kubernetes; Kubernetes Best Practices. Another great resource for seeing Kubernetes in action: the KubeWeeky blog. A call to watch the SIG playlists on the Kubernetes YouTube channel. Tooling: tab management and Michael’s self-built Twitter searcher. Live streaming and CTF live code demonstrations as another resource. How to keep a team updated using platforms like Slack and Zoom. The importance of organizing shared content on Slack. Challenges around not knowing the most important thing to focus on. Cognitive divergence and the temptation of escaping the isolation of coding by socializing. The idea that not seeing keeping up to date as being a personal sacrifice is dangerous. Using multiple different TLDR summaries to cement a concept in one’s brain. Incentives for users rather than developers of projects to share their experiences. The importance of showing appreciation for free resources in keeping motivation up. Quotes: “An audience I haven’t mentioned is the audience that basically just throws up their hands and walks away because there’s just too much to keep track of, right?” — @mauilion [0:05:15] “Maybe it’s because I’m lazy, I don’t know? But I wait until 1.17 drops, then I go to the release notes and really kind of ingest it because I’ve just struggled so much to kind of keep up with the day to day, ‘We merged this, we didn’t merge this,’ and so on.” — @joshrosso [0:10:18] “If you find value in being up to date with these things, just figure out – there are so many resources out there that address these different audiences and figure out what the right measure for you is. You don’t have to go deep on the code on everything.” — @mauilion [0:27:57] “Actually putting the right content in the right channel, at least from a higher level, helps me decide whether I want to like look at that channel today, and stuff that should be in the channel is not kind of in a conversation channel.” — @opowero [0:32:21] “When I see something that is going to give me the fundamentals, like I have other priorities now, I sort of always want to consume that to learn the fundamentals, because I think in the long term phase of, but then I neglect physically what I need to know to do in the moment.” — @carlisia [0:33:39] “Just do nothing, because our brain needs that. We need to not be listening, not be reading, just nothing. Just sit and look at the ceiling. Our brain needs that. Ideally, look at nature, like look outside, look at the air, go for a walk. We need that, because that recharges the brain.” — @carlisia [0:42:38] “Just consuming and keeping up, that doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t give back.” — @embano1 [0:49:32] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Chris Short — https://chrisshort.net/ Last Week in Kubernetes Development — http://lwkd.info/ 1.17 Release Notes — https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/release/notes/ Release Notes Filter Page — https://relnotes.k8s.io/ Cindy Sridharan on Twitter — https://twitter.com/copyconstruct InfoSec on Twitter — https://twitter.com/infosec?lang=en Programming Kubernetes on Amazon —https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Kubernetes-Developing-Cloud-Native-Applications/dp/1492047104 Managing Kubernetes on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Kubernetes-Operating-Clusters-World/dp/149203391X Brendan Burns on Twitter — https://twitter.com/brendandburns Kubernetes Best Practices on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Kubernetes-Best-Practices-Blueprints-Applications-ebook/dp/B081J62KLW/ KubeWeekly — https://kubeweekly.io/ Kubernetes SIG playlists on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ2bu0qutTOM0tHYa_jkIwg/playlists Twitch — https://www.twitch.tv/ Honeycomb — https://www.honeycomb.io/ KubeKon EU 2019 — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe-2019/ Aaron Crickenberger on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/spiffxp/ Stephen Augustus on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenaugustus Office Hours — https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/events/office-hours.md Transcript: EPISODE 17[INTRODUCTION][0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you.[EPISODE][0:00:41.5] DC: Good afternoon everybody and welcome to The Podlets. In this episode, we’re going to talk about, you know, one of the more challenging things that we all have to do, just kind of keep up with cloud native and how we each approach that and what we do. Today, I have a number of cohosts with me, I have Olive Power.[0:00:56.6] OP: Hi.[0:00:57.4] DC: Carlisia Campos.[0:00:58.6] CC: Hi everybody.[0:00:59.9] DC: Josh Rosso.[0:01:01.3] JR: Hey all.[0:01:02.8] DC: And Michael.[0:01:01.1] MICHAEL: Hey, hello.[0:01:04.8] DC: This episode, we’re going to do something a little different than we normally do. In most of our episodes, we try to remain somewhat objective around the problem and the potential solutions for it, rather than prescribing a particular solution. In this episode, however, since we’re talking about how we keep up with all of the crazy things that happen in such a fast ecosystem, we’re going to probably provide quite a number of examples or resources that you yourself could use to drive and to try and keep up to date with what’s happening out there.Be sure to check out the notes after the episode is over at thepodlets.io and you will find a link to the episodes up at the top part, click down to this episode, and check out the notes. There will be tons of resources. Let’s get started.One of the things I think about that’s interesting about keeping up with something like, you know, a Kubernetes or a fast-moving project, regardless of what that project is, whether it’s Kubernetes or, you know, for a while, it was the Mesos that I was following or OpenStack or a number have been big infrastructure projects that have been very fast moving over time and I think what’s interesting is I find that there’s multiple audiences that we kind of address when we think about what it means to ‘keep up,’ right?Keeping up with something like a project is interesting because I feel like there’s an audience that it’s actually very interested in what’s happening with the design goals or the code base of the project, and there’s an audience that is very specific to wanting to understand at a high level – like, “Give me the State of the World report like every month or so just so I can understand generally what’s happening with the project, like is it thriving? Is it starting to kind of wane? Are there big projects that it’s taking on?”And then there’s like, then I feel like there’s an audience somewhere in the middle there where they really want to see people using the project and understand, and know how to learn from those people who are using it so that they can elevate their own use of that project. They’re not particularly interested in the codebase per se but they do want to understand, are they exploring this project at a depth that makes sense for themselves? What do you all think about that?[0:03:02.0] CC: I think one thing that I want to mention is that this episode, it’s not so much about on-boarding people onto Kubernetes and the Kubernetes ecosystem. We are going to have an episode soon to talk specifically about that. How you get going, like get started. I think Duffy mentioned this so we’re going to be talking about how we all keep up with things. Definitely, there are different audiences, even when we’re talking about keeping up.[0:03:32.6] JR: Yeah, I think what’s funny about your audience descriptions, Duffy, is I feel like I’ve actually slid between those audiences a bit, right? It’s funny, back in the day, Kubernetes like one-four, one-five days, I feel like I was much more like, “What’s going on in the code?” Like trying to keep track of like how things are progressing.Now my role is a lot more focused with working with customers and standing up cube and like making a production ready. I feel like I’m a lot more, kind of reactive and more interested to see like, what features have become stable and impact me, you know what I mean? I’m far less in the weeds than I used to be. It’s a super interesting thing.[0:04:08.3] OP: Yeah, I tend to – for my role, I tend to definitely fall into the number three first which is the kind of general keeping an eye on things. Like when you see like interesting articles pop up that maybe have been linked internally because somebody said, “Oh, check out this article. It’s really interesting.”Then you find that you kind of click through five or six articles similar but then you can kind of flip to that kind of like, “Oh, I’m kind of learning lots of good stuff generally about things that folks are doing.” To actually kind of having to figure out some particular solution for one of my customers and so having to go quite deep into that particular feature.You kind of go – I kind of found myself going right in and then back out, right in, going back out depending on kind of where I am on a particular day of the week. It’s kind of a bit tricky. My brain sometimes doesn’t kind of deal with that sort of deep concentration into one particular topic and then back out again. It’s not easy.I find it quite tough actually some of the time.[0:05:05.0] DC: Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. Keeping track of everything is – it’s why the episode, right? How do we even approach it? It seems – I feel like, an audience I haven’t mentioned is the audience that basically just throws up their hands and walks away because there’s just too much to keep track of, right? I feel like we are all that at some point, you know?I get that.[0:05:26.4] OP: That’s why we have Christmas holidays, right? To kind of refresh the brain.[0:05:31.4] CC: Yeah, I maybe purposefully or maybe not even – not trying to keep up because it is too much, it is a lot, and what I’m trying to do is, go deeper on the things that I already, like sort of know. And things that I am working with on a day to day basis. I only really need to know, I feel like, I really only need to know – because I’m not working directly with customers.My scope is very well defined and I feel that I really only need to know whenever there’s a new Kubernetes release. I need to know what the release is. We usually – every once in a while, we update our project to the – we bump up the Kubernetes release that we are working against and in general, yeah, it’s like if things come my way, if it’s interesting, I’ll take a look, but mostly, I feel like I work in a spiral.If I’m doing codes related to controllers and there’s a conference talk about controllers then okay, let me take a look at this to maybe learn how to design this thing better, implement in a better way if I know more about it. If I’m doing, looking at CRDs, same thing. I really like conference talks for education but that’s not so much keeping up with what’s new. Are we talking about educating ourselves with things that we don’t know about?Things that we don’t know about. Or are we talking about just news?[0:07:15.6] JR: I think it’s everything. That’s a great question. One of my other questions when we were starting to talk about this was like, what is keeping up even mean, right? I mean, does it mean, where do you find resources that are interesting that keep you interested in the project or are you looking for resources that just kind of keep you up to date with what’s changing? It’s a great question.[0:07:36.2] MICHAEL: Actually, there was some problem that I faced when I edit the links that I wanted to share in the show. I started writing the links and then I realized, “Well, most of the stuff is not keeping up with news, it’s actually understanding the technology,” because I cannot keep up.What does help me in understanding specific areas, when I need to dig into them and I think back five or four years into early days of Kubernetes, it was easy to catch up by the time because it was just about Kubernetes. Later right, it became this platform. We realized that it actually this platform thing. Then we extended Kubernetes and then we realized there are CICD-related stuff and operations and monitoring and so the whole ecosystem grew. The landscape grew so much that today, it’s impossible to keep up, right?I think I’m interested in all those patterns that you have developed over the years that help you to manage this, let’s say complexity or stream of information.[0:08:33.9] DC: Yeah, I agree. This year, I was thinking about putting up a talk with Chris Short, it was actually last year. That was about kind of on the same topic of keeping up with it. In that, I kind of did a little research into how that happens and I feel like some of the interesting stuff that came out of that was that there are certain patterns that a project might take on that make it easier or more approachable to, you know, stay in contact with what’s happening.If we take Kubernetes as an example, there are a number of websites I think that pretty much everybody here kind of follows to some degree, that helps, sort of, kind of, address those different audiences that we were talking about.One of the ones that I’ve actually been really impressed with is LWKD which stands for Last Week in Kubernetes Development, and as you can imagine, this is really kind of focused on, kind of – I wouldn’t say it’s like super deep on the development but it is watching for things that are changing, that are interesting to the people who are curating that particular blog post, right?They’ll have things in there like, you know, code freezes coming up on this date, IPV6, IPV4, duel stack is merging, they’ll have like some of the big mile markers that are happening in a particular release and where they are in time as it relates to that release. I think if that’s a great pattern and I think that – it’s a very narrow audience, right? It would really only be interesting to people who are interested in, or who are caught up in the code base, or just trying to understand like, maybe I want a preview of what the release notes might look like, so I might just like look for like a weekly kind of thing.[0:10:03.4] JR: Yeah, speaking of the release notes, right? It’s funny. I do get to look at Last Week in Kubernetes development every now and then. It’s an awesome resource but I’ve gotten to the point where the release notes are probably my most important thing for staying up to date.Maybe it’s because I’m lazy, I don’t know, but I wait till 1.17 drops, then I go to the release notes and really kind of ingest it because I’ve just struggled so much to kind of keep up with the day to day, “We merged this, we didn’t merge this,” and so on. That has been a huge help for me, you know, day to day, week to week, month to month.[0:10:37.0] MICHAEL: Well, what was also helpful just on the release notes that the new filter webpage that they put out in 1.15, starting 1.15. Have you all seen that?[0:10:44.4] JR: I’ve never heard of it.[0:10:45.4] DC: Rel dot, whatever it is. Rel dot –[0:10:47.7] MICHAEL: Yeah, if you can share it Duffy, that’s super useful. Especially like if you want to compare releases and features added and –[0:10:55.2] DC: I’ll have to dig it up as well. I don’t remember exactly what –[0:10:56.7] CC: I’m sorry, say? Which one is that again?[0:10:59.1] MICHAEL: The real notes. I’ll put it in the hackMD.[0:11:02.8] DC: Yeah relnotes.k8s.io which is an interesting one because it’s sort of like a comparison engine that allows you to kind of compare what it would have featured like how to feature relates to different versions of stuff.[0:11:14.4] CC: That’s great. I cannot encourage enough for the listeners to look at the show notes because we have a little document here that we – can I? The resources are amazing. There are so many things that I have never even heard about and sound great – is – I want to go to this whole entire list. Definitely check it out. We might not have time to mention every single thing. I don’t want people to miss on all the goodness that’s been put together.[0:11:48.7] DC: Agreed, and again, if you’re looking for those notes, you just go to the podlets.io. Click on ‘episodes’ at the right? And then look for this episode and you’ll find that it’s there.[0:11:58.0] CC: I can see that a lot of the content in those notes are like Twitter feeds. Speaking personally, I’m not sure I’m at the stage yet where I learn a lot about Twitter feeds in terms of technical content. Do you guys find that it’s more around people’s thoughts around certain things so thought-provoking things around Kubernetes and the ecosystem rather than actual technical content. I mean, that’s my experience so far.But looking at those Twitter feeds, maybe I guess I might need to follow some of those feeds. What do you all think?[0:12:30.0] MICHAEL: Do you mean the tweets are from those like learn [inaudible 0:12:32] or the person to be tweets?[0:12:35.3] OP: You’ve listed some of there, Michael, and some sort of.[0:12:37.6] MICHAEL: I just wanted to get some clarity. The reason I listed so many Twitter accounts there is because Twitter is my only kind of newsfeed if you will. I used Feedly and RSS and others before and emails and threads. But then I just got overwhelmed and I had this feeling of missing out on all of those times.That’s why I said, “Okay, let’s just use Twitter.” To your question, most of these accounts are people who have been in the Kubernetes space for very long, either running Kubernetes, developing on Kubernetes, having opinions about Kubernetes.Opinions in general on topics related to cloud native because we didn’t want to make the search just about Kubernetes. Most of these people, I really appreciate their thoughts and some of them also just a retweet things that they see which I missed somewhere else and not necessarily just opinions. I think It’s a good mix of these accounts, providing options, some guidance, and also just news that I miss out on because not being on the other channels.[0:13:35.6] OP: Yeah, I agree because sometimes you can kind of read – I tend to require a lot of sort of blog posts and sort of web posts which, you know, without realizing it can be kind of opinionated and then, you know, it’s nice to then see some Twitter feeds that kind of actually just kind of give like a couple of words, a kind of a different view which sometimes makes me think “Okay, I understand that topic from a certain article that I’ve read, it’s just really nice to hear a kind of a different take on it through Twitter.”[0:14:03.0] CC: I think some of the accounts, like fewer of the accounts – and there are a bunch of things that – there are listed accounts here that I didn’t know before so I’ll check them out. I think fewer of the accounts are providing technical content, for example, Cindy Sridharan, not pronouncing it correctly but Cindy is great, she puts out a lot of technical content and a lot of technical opinion and observations that is really good to consume. I wish I had time to just read her blog posts and Twitter alone.She’s very oriented towards distributed systems in general, so she’s not even specific just Kubernetes. Most of the accounts are very opinionated and the benefit for me is that sometimes I catch people talking about something that I didn’t even know was a thing. It’s like, “Oh, this is a thing I should know about for the work that I do,” and like Michael was saying, you know, sometimes I catch retweets that I didn’t catch before and I just – I’m not checking out places, I’m not checking – hash tagging Reddit.I rely on Twitter and the people who I follow to – if there is a blog post that sounds important, I just trust that somebody would, that I’m going to see it multiple times until like, “Okay, this is content that is related to something and I’m working on, that I want to get better at.” Then I’ll go and look at it. My sources are mainly Twitter and YouTube and it’s funny because I love blog posts but it’s like I haven’t been reading them because it takes a long time to read a blogpost.I give preference to video because I can just listen while I’m doing stuff. I sort of stopped reading blog post which is sad. I also want to start writing posts because it’s so helpful for me to engrain the things that I’m learning and hopefully it will be helpful to other people too. But in any case, go Duffy.[0:16:02.8] DC: A number of people that I follow – I have been cultivating my feed pretty carefully, trying to get a broad perspective of technical stuff that’s happening. But also I’ve been trying to develop my persona on Twitter a bit more, right? I’m actually trying to build my audience there. What’s interesting there is I’ve been trying to – to that end, what I’ve been doing is like trying to amplify voices that I think aren’t heard enough out there, right?If I see an article by somebody who is just coming into Kubernetes. or just coming into distributed systems and they’ve taken an effort to really lay out something that they found really interesting about pretty much anything, right? I’m like, “Okay, that’s pretty awesome,” and I’ll try to amplify that, right? Sometimes I even get involved or I’ll, not directly in public on Twitter but I’ll offer to help edit or help provide whatever our guidance I can provide around that sort of stuff.If I see people like having a difficult time with a particular project or something like that, I’ll reach out privately and say, “Hey, can I help you with it so you can go out there and do a great job,” you know? That is something I love to do. I think your point about like not necessarily going at Twitter for the deep knowledge stuff but more just like making sure that you have a broad enough awareness of what’s happening in different ecosystems that you’re not surprised by the things when the things change, right?A couple of other people that I follow are Akira Asuta, I can’t say enough about that person. They are amazing, they have been doing like, incredibly deep security stuff as it relates to containerization and stuff like that for quite a while. I’m always like, learning brand new things to me when following folks like that. I’ve been kind of getting more interested in InfoSec Twitter lately, learning how people kind of approach that problem.Also some of the bias arounds that which has been pretty interesting. Both the bias against people who are in InfoSec which seems weird to me. Also, how InfoSec approaches a problem, like do they put it like a learning experience or they approach it like an attack experience.It’s been kind of fascinating to get in there.[0:18:08.1] OP: You know, I kind of use Twitter as well for some of this stuff but you know, books are kind of a resource as well but in my head, kind of like at the opposite scale. You know, I obviously don’t read as many books as I read twitter feeds, right? It’s just kind of like, with Twitter, you can kind of digest the whole of the stuff and with books, it’s kind of like – I tend to be trying – because I know, I’m only going to read – like I’m only going to read maybe one/two books a year.I’ve kind of like – as I said before, blog posts seem to take up my reading time and books kind of tend to be for like on airplanes and stuff. So if – they’re just kind of two opposite resources for me but I find actually, the content of books are probably stuff that I digest a bit more because you know, it’s kind of like, I don’t know, back to the old days. It’s kind of a physical thing on hand and I can kind of read it and digest it a bit more than the kind of throwaway stuff that kind of keeps on Twitter.Because to be honest, I don’t know what’s on Twitter. Who is kind of a person to listen to or who is not or who is – I just try and form my own opinions and then, again, it kind of gets a bit overwhelming, because it’s a lot of content just streaming through continuously, whereas a book, it’s kind of like just one source of information that is kind of like a bit more personal that I can digest a bit more.[0:19:18.1] JR: Any particular book recommendation in 2019, Olive, that you found particularly interesting?[0:19:23.5] OP: I’m still reading, and it’s on the list for the episode notes actually, Programming Kubernetes. I just want to kind of get into that sort of CRD sort of mindset a bit. I think that’s kind of an area that’s interesting and an area that a lot of people will want to use in their organizations, right, because it’s going to do some of the extensibility to Kubernetes that’s just not there out of the box and everybody wants something that’s not out of the box or always in my experience.[0:19:47.4] MICHAEL: I found the Managing Kubernetes, I think was it, by – from Brendan Burns and some other folks which was just released I think in the end of last year. Super deep and that is kind of the opposite to the Programming Kubernetes, because I like that as well. That is more geared towards understanding architecture and operations.Operational concepts –[0:20:05.0] OP: They’re probably the two books I’ve read.[0:20:08.4] MICHAEL: Okay.[0:20:08.9] OP: One a year, remember?[0:20:11.4] MICHAEL: Yeah.[0:20:14.6] OP: Prolific reading.[0:20:19.6] CC: I think if you know what you need to learn about cloud native or Kubernetes, there’s amazing books out there, and if you are still exploring Kubernetes and trying to learn, I cannot recommend this book enough. If you are watching this on YouTube, you’ll see the cover. It’s called Kubernetes Best Practices because it’s about Kubernetes best practices but what they did simultaneously and maybe they didn’t even realize is just they gave a map for the entire thing.You go, “Oh, these are all the elements in Kubernetes.” Of course, it’s saying, “Okay, this is the best way to go about setting the stuff up,” and this is relatively thin but I just think that going through this book, you get really fast overview of the elements in Kubernetes. Then you can go to other books like Managing Kubernetes to go deep and understand all of the knobs and switches.[0:21:24.6] DC: I want to bring it back to the patterns that we see successful projects. Projects that you think are approachable but, you know, projects that are out there that make it easy for you to kind of stay – or easier at least to stay up to date with them, what some of those patterns are that you think are useful for projects.We’re talking about like having a couple of different entry points from kind of a weekly report mechanism, we’ve talked about the one that LWKD is, I don’t think we got to talk about KubeWeekly which is actually a weekly blog that is actually curated by a lot of the CNCF ambassadors. KubeWeekly is also broken up in different sections, so like sometimes they’ll just talk about – but they’re actually going out actively and trying to find articles of people using Kubernetes and then trying to post those.If you’re interested in understanding how people are actually out there using it, then that’s a great place to go find articles that are kind of related to that. What are some other patterns that we see that are out there that are useful for books?[0:22:27.6] DC: One that I really like. Kubernetes, for everyone listening has this notion of special interest groups, SIGs oftentimes. They’re focused on certain areas of the project. There’s some for networking and storage and life cycles of clusters and what’s amazing, I try to watch them somewhat weekly, I don’t always succeed.They’re all on YouTube and if you go to the Kubernetes project YouTube, there’s playlists for every SIG. A lot of times I’m doing work relating to life cycles of clusters. I’ll open up the cluster life cycle playlist and I’ll just watch the weekly meetings. While it doesn’t always pertain to completely to me, it lets me understand kind of where the developers and contributor’s heads are at and where they’re kind of headed with a lot of different things.There’s a link to that as well if anyone wants to check it out.[0:23:15.9] MICHAEL: Exactly, to add to that. If you don’t have the time to watch the videos, the meeting notes that these gentlemen and women put together are amazing. Usually, I just scroll through and if it’s something to triggers, I go into the episode and watch it.[0:23:28.7] OP: I almost feel like we should talk about tooling to handle all of this stuff, for example, right now, I think I have 200 tabs opened. I just started learning about some chrome extensions to manage tabs. I haven’t started really using them but I need. I don’t have a good system. My system is open a video that I’m pretty sure I want to watch and just get to that tab eventually until something happens in my chrome goes bust and I lose everything.I wanted to mention that when we say watch YouTube, some things you don’t need to sit there and actually watch, you can just listen to it and if you pay for the five bucks for YouTube premium – I don’t get a commission you people, but I’m just saying, for me, it’s so helpful. I can just turn off you know, put my phone on my pocket and keep listening to it without having to have the phone open and on the whole time. It’s very handy.It’s just like listening to a podcast. I also listen to podcasts lots of days.[0:24:35.1] MICHAEL: For tooling, since I’m just mostly on Twitter and by the time I was using or starting to use Twitter, they didn’t have this bookmark function, so I was basically abusing likes or favorites at the time, I think, to bookmark. What I realized later, my bookmarks grew, well, my likes grew.I wanted to go back and find something but that through the Twitter search was just impossible. I blew the tiny little go tool, kind of my first exercise there to just parse my likes and then use JQ because it’s all JSON to query and manipulate the stuff. I almost use it every day because I was like, that was a talk or blog post about scheduling and just correct for scheduling and the likes.I’m sure there’s a better tool or way of doing that but for me, that’s mine too. Because that’s my workflow.[0:25:27.6] DC: Both of the two blogs that you mentioned both KubeWeekly and LWKD, they both have the ability to take – you can submit stories to them. If you come across things that are interesting and you’d like to put that up on an aggregator somewhere, this is one of the ways to kind of solve that problem because at least if it gets cleared up on an aggregator, you know that you go back to the aggregator to see it, so that helps.Some other ones I’ve seen out there, I’ve seen people, I’ve seen a number of interesting startups now, starting to kind of like put out a podcast or – and I have started to see a number of people like you know, engaging with Twitch and also doing things like what we do with TJK.io which is like have sort of some kind of a weekly thing where you are just hacking on stuff live and just exploring it whether that is related to – if you think of about TJK is we’re going to do without being related necessarily to anything that we are doing at VMware just anything to do with the community but obviously if you are working for one of the small companies like Honeycomb or some other company.A smaller kind of startup, you can really just get people more aware of that because for some reason people love to watch others code. They love to understand how people go through that, what are their thought process is and I find it awesome as well. I think it is amazing to me how big a draw that is, you know?[0:26:41.1] OP: And is there lots of them out there Duffy? Is that kind of an easy searchable thing or is it like how do you know those things are going on?[0:26:48.4] DC: Oddly enough Twitter, most of the time, yeah. I mean, most of the time I see that kind of stuff happening on Twitter, like somebody will like – I will scope with this or a number of other people will say, “Hey, I am going to do a live stream during this period of time on this,” and I have actually seen a number of people doing live streams on CTFs, which are capture the flags. That one’s really been fascinating to me because it has been how do people think about approaching the security of an application.Like where do they look for weak spots and how do you determine, how do you approach that kind of a problem, which is fascinating. So yeah, I think it is important to remember that like you know, you are not the only one trying to keep up to date with all of this stuff, right? The one thing we all have said pretty consistently here is that it is a lot, and it is not just Kubernetes, right? Like any fast moving project. It could be your favorite Ruby module that has 200 contributors, right?It doesn’t matter what it is, it is a lot to keep a track of, and it represents some of that cognitive overheads that you have to think about. That is a lot to take on. Even if it is overwhelming, if you find value in being up to date with these things, just figure out – there are so many resources out there that address these different audiences and figure out what the right measure for you is. You don’t have to go deep on the code on everything.Sometimes it might be better to just try and find a source of information that gives you a high enough of a view. Maybe you are looking at the blog posts that come out on Kubernetes.io every release and you are just looking at the release notes and if you just read the release notes every release, that is already miles ahead of what I have seen a lot of folks out there when they are starting to ask me questions about how do you keep up to date.[0:28:35.9] JR: I’m curious, we have been talking a lot about keeping up as an individual. Do you all have strategies for how you help, let’s say your overall team, keep up with all the things that are going on? To give an example, Duffy, Olive and myself, at least at one point, were on the same team and we’d go out to disparate customers and see all of these different new things that they are trying to do or new projects that they are using.So we’d have to think about how do we get together and share that internally to make sure we are bringing the whole team along with what is going on in the ecosystem especially from a customer perspective. I know one of the ways that we do that is having demos and things of that nature that we share weekly. Are there other strategies that you all use with your teams to kind of share interesting information and news?[0:29:25.5] M: So what we do is mostly the way we share in our team, and we are a small team. We use Slack. We pre-filter in terms of like if there is stuff that I think is valuable for me and probably not for the whole team – obviously we are not going to share, but I think if it is related to something that the team has or to come grant and then I will share on Slack but we don’t have any formal way. I know people use some reports, weekly reports, or other platforms to distribute but we just use Slack.[0:29:53.0] DC: I think one of the things – one of the patters that we had at [inaudible 0:29:54] that I thought was actually super helpful was that we would engage a conversation. “I learned a cool new thing about whatever today,” and so we would say, “I am going to – ” and then we would start a Zoom call around that and then people could join if they wanted to, to be a part of the live discussion or not, and if they didn’t, they would still be able to see a recorded Zoom pop up in the channel later on.So even if your time zones don’t line up, like I know it is 2 AM or 3 AM or something like that for Olive right now, you can still go back to those recorded sessions and you’ll just see it on your daily Slack stuff. You would be able to see, “Oh there was a conversation about whether you should deploy Kubernetes crossed availibility zones or not. I would like to go see that,” and see what the inputs were, and so that can be helpful.[0:30:42.5] JR: Yeah, that is a super interesting observation. It is almost like remote-first teams that are used to these processes of recording everything and putting it in a Google doc. They are more equipped for that information sharing perhaps than like the water cooler conversations you’d have in the office.[0:30:58.5] OP: And on the Slack or any of the communication tool, we have different channels because we are all in lots of channels and to have channels dedicated to a particular subject is absolutely the way to go because otherwise in my previous company that seem to be kind of one main channel that all the architect used to discussed everything on and you know sometimes you join and you’re like, “What is everybody talking about?”There would be literally about a hundred messages on some sort of theme that I have never heard of. So you come away from that thinking that, “That is the main channel. Where is the bit – is there messages in the middle that I missed that were just normal discussions as opposed to in around the technical stuff,” and so it made me a bit sad, right? I would be like, “I haven’t understood something and there is a whole load of stuff on this channel that I don’t understand.”But it is the kind of central channel for everyone. So I think you end up then start looking up things that they are discussing and then realizing actually that is not really anything related to what I need to know about today or next week. It might be something for the future but I’ve got other stuff to focus on. So my point is that those communication channels for me sometimes can make me feel a little bit behind the curve or very much sort of reactive in trying to jump on things that are actually not really anything to do with me for me now and wasting my time slightly and kind of messing with my head a little bit in that like, “I really need to try and focus out stuff,” and actually putting the right content in the right channel, at least from a higher level, helps me decide whether I want to like look at that channel today, and stuff that should be in the channel is not kind of in a conversation channel. So organization of where that content is, is important to me.[0:32:37.6] CC: I am so in the same page with you Olive. That is the way my brain works as well. I want to have multiple channels, like if we are talking about Slack or any chat tool, but some people have such aversion to multiple channels. They really have a hard time dealing with too many – like testing their threshold of what they think is too many channels. So I am always mindful too, like it has to work for everybody but if it was up to me, there will be one channel per topic. So I know where to focus on.But you said something that is so interesting. How do we even just – like you were saying in the context of channel, multiple channels, and I go, if I need to pay attention to this this week as oppose to like, I don’t need to look at this until some time in the future. How do we even decide what we focus on that is useful for us in the moment versus it would be good for me to know but I don’t need to know right now.I am super bad at this. When I see something that is going to give me the fundamentals, like I have other priorities now, I sort of always want to consume that to learn the fundamentals because I think in the long term phase of, but then I neglect physically what I need to know to do in the moment and I am trying to sort of fish there and get focused on in the moment things. Anybody else have a hard time?[0:34:04.5] DC: You are not alone on that, yeah.[0:34:06.7] CC: It is terrible.[0:34:08.3] MICHAEL: Something that I wish I would do more often as like being a good citizen is like when you read a lot, probably 90% of my time is not writing but reading, maybe even more and then I share and then on Twitter, the tweet for them the most successful ones in terms of retweets or likes are the ones where I do like TLDR’s or some screen captures like too long to read. Where people don’t have the time, they might want to read the article but they don’t have the time.But if you put in like a TLDR like either a tweet or a thread on it, a lot of people would jump onto it because they can just easily capture it and they can still read the full article if they want but that is something that I learned and it is pretty – what is the right word? Helpful to my followers and the community but I just don’t do it that often unfortunately. If I am writing, summarizing, writing, I kind of remember. That is how the brain works. It is a nice side effect.[0:35:04.9] DC: I was saying, this is definitely one of those things where you can be the change you want to see if you, you know?[0:35:08.6] M: Yeah, I know.[0:35:10.0] DC: This is awesome. I would also say that what you just raised Carlisia is like a super valid point. I mean like not everybody’s brain works the same way, right? There are people who are neuro-divergent. There are people who think very linearly and they are very comfortable with that and there are people who don’t. So it is a struggle I think regardless of how your brain is wired to understand to how to prioritize the attention you will give any given subject.In some cases, your brain is not wired – your brain is almost wired against that whole idea, like you are just not set up for success when it comes to figuring out how to prioritize your attention.[0:35:49.0] CC: You hit the nail on the head. We are so set up for failure in that department because there are so many interesting conversations and you want to hop in and you want to be a part of the conversation and part of the group and socialize. Our work is so isolating to really put our heads down and just work, it can be so isolating. So it is great to participate in conversations out there even if it is for only via Twitter. I mean, obviously we are very biased towards Twitter here in this group.But I am not even this on Twitter so just keep that in mind that we are cognizant of that but in any case, I don’t know what the answer is but what I am trying always to cut down on that, those social activities that seem so appealing. I don’t know how to do that from working out.[0:36:43.9] JR: I am in the same boat. 2020, I am hoping to let more of that go and to your point, it is not that there is no value in it. It is just, I don’t know, I am not deriving the same amount of quality out of it because I am so just multiplexed all over the place, right? So we’ll see how it goes.[0:36:59.9] CC: Oh if any listener has opinions and obviously it seems that all of us are helpless in that department. Share with us, please.[0:37:12.5] DC: It is a tricky one. I think it is also interesting because I find that when we talk about things like work-life balance, we think of the idea of maybe work-life balance is that when you come at the end of the day and you go home and you don’t think about work, right? Sometimes we think that work-life balance means that you have a certain amount of time off that you can actually spend with your family and your friends or your community, what have you, and not be engaging on multiple fronts.Just be that – have that be your focus, but when it comes to things like keeping up, when it comes to things like learning or elevating your education and stuff, it seems like, for the most part, and this is just my own assumption, I am curious how you all feel about this, that we don’t – that that doesn’t enter into it, right? Your personal time is totally on the table when it comes to how do you keep up with these things. We don’t even think about it that way, right?I know I personally don’t. I definitely have to do more and cut back on the amount of time that I spend reading. I am right there with Michael on 90% of my time when my eyes are open, they are either reading or staring up on the sky while I try to think about what I am going to write next. You know one way or the other it is like that is what I am doing.[0:38:24.0] CC: Yeah.[0:38:25.1] MICHAEL: I noticed last year on my Twitter feed, more people than the years before will complain about like personal burn out. I saw a pattern, like reading those people’s tweets, I saw a pattern there. It wasn’t really like a spiral and then they realized and they shot down like deleted Twitter from their phones or any messaging and other stuff, and I think I am at the point where I also need to do that when it comes to vacation PDO, or whatever.Because I am just like, as you said Duffy, my free time is on the table when it comes to Twitter and catching up and keeping up because work-life balance in my mind is not work but what is not work for like – Kubernetes is exciting, adding in all the space, like what is not work there? I need to really get better at that because I think I might end in the same spiral of just soaking in more until I just –[0:39:17.7] CC: Yeah and like Josh said, it is not that there isn’t a value. Obviously we derive a huge value, that is why we’re on it, but you have to weigh things and what are your goals and is that the best way to your goals from where you are right now, and maybe you know, Twitter you use for a while, ramp up your knowledge, ramp up the connections because it is great for making connections, and then you step back and focus on something else, then to go on a cycle.This is how I am thinking now. It is just like what Olive was saying, you know, books are great, blog posts are great, and I absolutely agree with that. It is just that I don’t have even the time and when I have the time, I would be reading code and I would be reading things all day long, it is just really tiring for me at the end of the day to sit down and read more. I want to invest in learning how to speed read to solve that problem because I read a lot of books and blog posts. So something on my list.[0:40:22.8] DC: One of the biggest tips on speed reading I ever learned is that frequently when you read you think of saying the word and if you can get out of that habit, if you get out of the habit of saying the word even with your mouth or you just get out of that habit that will already increase the quickness of what you read.[0:40:39.5] CC: That is so interesting.[0:40:41.4] DC: Yeah, that is a trippy one.[0:40:43.1] CC: Because I think being bilingual, I totally like – that really helps me understand things, by saying the words.[0:40:52.9] DC: I think the point that we are all working around here is, there is a great panel that came out at KubeCon EU in 2019 was put on by Aaron Crickenberger, Esther McNaMara, Steven Augustus, these folks are all very high output people. I mean, they do a lot of stuff especially with regard to community and so they put on a panel that was talking about burn out and self-care and I think that it is definitely worth checking that one out.And actually also thinking about what keeping up means to you and making sure that you are measuring that against your ability to sustain, is incredibly important, right? I feel like keeping up is one of those subjects where we end up – it is almost insidious in its way to – it is a thing that we can just do all the time. We can just spend all of our time, any free moment that you have, you are sitting on the bus, you are trying to keep up with things.And because that happens so much, I feel like that is sort of one of the ways that we can feel burnt out as you are seeing today. We can feel like we did a lot of things but there was no real result to it and keep in mind that that’s part of it, right? Like when you are thinking about how we are keeping up with it, make sure that the value to your time is still something that you have some cognizance about, that you have some thought about, like is it worth it to me to just spend this six hours reading everything, right?Or would it be better for me to spend some amount of time just not reading, you know? Like doing something else, you know? Like bake a cake for crying out loud, you know?[0:42:29.5] CC: Something that a lot of times we don’t allow ourselves to do and I decided to speak for everybody I am sorry, I just do nothing, because our brain needs that. We need to not be listening, not be reading, just nothing. Just sit and look at the ceiling, our brain needs that. Ideally, look at nature, like look outside, look at the air, go for a walk. We need that, because that recharges the brain. Anyway, one thing also that I want to bring up, maybe we can mention real quick because we are coming up at the top of the hour.How do people, projects, how do we really help the users of those projects to be up to date with what they are doing?[0:43:18.4] DC: Well yeah I mean this is the different patterns that we are talking about. So I think the blog posts help. I like the idea of having blogs that are targeted towards different audiences. I like the idea of having an aggregate here for putting up a big project. I mean obviously Kubernetes is such a huge ecosystem that if you have things like KubeWeekly and I know that there are actually quite a number of things out there that try and do this.But if we can kind of agree on one like KubeWeekly I think is a pretty good one because it is actually run by the CNCF. So it kind of falls within that sort of governance as a model but having an aggregator where you can actually produce content or curate content as it relates to your project that’s helpful, and then office-hours I think is also helpful to Josh’s point. I mean office-hours and SIG hours are very similar things. I mean like office-hours there like how to developers think about what’s happening with the space.This is an opportunity for you as an end user to show up and ask questions, those sorts of patterns I think all are incredibly helpful as a project to figure out there to those things.[0:44:17.8] OP: Yeah, I know summary articles or the sort of TLDRs that Michael mentioned earlier, I think I need more of those things in my life because I do a lot of reading, because I think my brain is a bit weird in that I need to read something about five or six different times from five or six different articles for it to sort of frame in my head.So what I am trying to – like for 2020, I have almost tried to do this, is like if I think somebody knows all about this and it would save me reading those five, six, seven articles and if that person has the time, I try and sort of reach out to them and say, “Listen, have you got 20 minutes or so to explain this topic to me? Can I ask you questions about it?” It just saves me, saves my eyes reading the screen, and it just saves me time. I just need a TLDR summary of a project or a feature or something just so I can know what it is all about in my head and talk fairly sort of confidently about it.If I need to get in front and down under the weeds then there is more reading to kind of do for me maybe the coding on the technical side, but sometimes I can’t figure out what this feature sort of means and what is its use case in the real world and I have to read through lots of articles and sometimes kind of vendor specific ones and they’ve got a different slant than maybe an independent one and trying to marry those bits up my head is a bit hard for me and there is sort of wealth of information.So if you are interested in a topic and there is hundreds of articles and you start reading four or five and they are all slightly different, eventually you figure out that – you are confident and I understand what that product is about but it has taken a long time to get there and it is taken a lot of reading time. So TLDRs is like really work and I think as Josh mentioned before, we have this thing internally where we do bench demos.And that is like a TLDR and a show and tell really quickly, like, “This is what this does and this is why we need to know about it and this is why our customers needs to know about it, the end,” you know? And that’s really, really useful because that just saves a whole bunch of people a whole bunch of time figuring out A, whether they need to know about it and B, actually now understanding that product or feature at the end of the five, 10 minutes which is what they typically are. So they are very useful short snippets of information. Maybe we are back to Twitter.[0:46:37.8] JR: Similar to the idea of giving a demo Olive, you made me think of something and that is that I think one of the ways that I keep up with the space is actually through writing along with reading and I think the notion of like – and this admittedly takes up time and the whole quality of life conversation comes in but using writing to help develop your thoughts and kind of aggregate all of these crazy inputs and try to be somewhat concise, which I know I struggle with, around something I’ve learned.It’s helped me a ton and then that asset kind of becomes reusable to share with other people the thing that you wrote. So for people listening to this I guess maybe a call to action for 2020 if that is your style as well, consider starting to write yourself and becoming a resource, right? Because even if you are new to this space, you’d be amazed at just how writing from your perspective can help other people.[0:47:26.3] DC: I think another one that I actually have been impressed with lately is that a number of consumer companies like people out there like Lyft and companies like that have actually started to surface engineering blogs around how they are using technology and how they are using technology to solve things, which I think, as a service provider, as somebody who is involved in the community of Kubernetes, I find those to be incredibly valuable because I get to actually see how those things are doing.I mean at the same time, I see things like – we talked about KubeCon, which is a convention that they have every year. Obviously the project is large enough to support it but there is actually an incentive if you are a consumer of that project to go and talk about how you are using it, right? It is incentivized in that it is more likely your talk will be accepted if you are a consumer of the product than somebody building it, right? We hear from people building it all the time.I love that idea of incentivizing people who are using this thing get out there and talk about it or share their ideas about it or how they are using it, what problems did it solve for them. That is critical I think.[0:48:31.0] CC: Can I also make a suggestion – is to not so much following on the thread that we are talking about just now but kind of on the general thread of this episode. If you have resources that you do use to keep up with things, stop this recording right now and go and give them a like, give them a follow, give them a thumbs up, show somehow appreciation because what Duffy said just now, he was saying, “Oh it is so helpful when I read a blog post.”But people who are writing, they want to know that. So give them some indication, it counts a lot. It takes a lot of effort to sit down and write something or produce a podcast and if you take any, derive any benefit from it, show appreciation. It motivates people to keep doing it.[0:49:26.4] DC: Yeah, agreed.[0:49:27.9] M: I think that is a great bind maybe to close off this episode because it reiterates that just consuming and keeping up that doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t give back, right? So this is a way of giving back, which is really important to keep that flow and creativeness.[0:49:41.8] CC: I go through a lot of YouTube videos and sometimes I just play one after the other but sometimes, you know, I have been making a point of going back and liking it. Liking the ones that I like – obviously I don’t like everything. I mean things that I don’t like I don’t listen in but you know what I mean? It takes no effort but just so people know, “OK, you did a good job here.” By the way, go to iTunes and rate us. So we will know that you liked it and it will help people find our show, our podcast, and if you are watching us on YouTube, give us a like.[0:50:16.1] DC: All right, well unless anybody has any final thoughts, that is what we wanted to cover this session. So thank you all very, very much and I look forward to seeing you next week.[0:50:25.3] M: Bye-bye.[0:50:26.3] CC: Thank you so much.[0:50:27.4] OP: Bye.[0:50:28.1] JR: Bye.[END OF EPISODE][0:50:28.7] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing.[END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The DC Daily cast talks the latest DC news, including the 750th issue of Wonder Woman, the finale of the DCYou Unscripted Contest, and the debut of Wonder Woman: Bloodlines on DC Universe. Prepare to enter the Multiverse!

Today on The Podlets Podcast, we are joined by VMware's Vice President of Research and Development, Craig McLuckie! Craig is also a founder of Heptio, who were acquired by VMware and during his time at Google he was part of bringing Kubernetes into being. Craig has loads of expertise and shareable experience in the cloud native space and we have a fascinating chat with him, asking about his work, Heptio and of course, Kubernetes! Craig shares some insider perspective on the space, the rise of Kubernetes and how the increase in Kubernetes' popularity can be managed. We talk a lot about who can use Kubernetes and the prerequisites for implementation; Craig insists it is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. We also get into the lack of significantly qualified minds and how this is impacting competition in the hiring pool. Craig comments on taking part in the open source community and the buy-in that is required to meaningfully contribute as well as sharing his thoughts on the need to ship new products and services regularly. We finish off the episode with some of Craig's perspectives on the future of Kubernetes, dangers it poses to code if neglected and the next phase of its lifespan. For this amazing chat with a true expert in his field, make sure to join us on for this episode! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Special guest: Craig McLuckie Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Josh Rosso Key Points From This Episode: • A brief introduction to Craig's history and his work in the cloud native space. • The questions that Craig believes more people should be asking about Kubernetes. • Weighing the explosion of the Kubernetes space; fragmentation versus progress. • The three pieces of enterprise software and aiming to enlarge the 'crystalline core'.• Craig's thoughts on specialized Kubernetes operating systems and their tradeoffs. • Quantifying the readiness of an organization to implement Kubernetes. • Craig's reflections on Heptio and the lessons he feels he learned in the process.• The skills shortage for Kubernetes and how companies are approaching this issue. • Balancing the needs and level of the community and shipping products regularly.• Involvement in the open source community and the leap of faith that is inherent in the process. • The question of microliths; making monoliths more complex and harder to manage. • Masking problems with Kubernetes and how detrimental this can be to your code. • Craig's thoughts on the future of the Kubernetes space and possible changes.• The two duty cycles of any technology; the readiness phase that follows the hype. Quotes: “I think Kubernetes has opened it up, not just in terms of the world of applications that can run Kubernetes, but also this burgeoning ecosystem of supporting technologies that can create value.” — @cmcluck [0:06:20] “You're not a cool mainstream enterprise software provider if you don’t have a Kubernetes story today. I think we’ll start to see continued focus and consolidation around a set of the larger organizations that are operating in this space.” — @cmcluck [0:06:39] “We are so much better served as a software company if we can preserve consistency from environment to environment.” — @cmcluck [0:09:12] “I’m a fan of rendered down, container-optimized operating system distributions. There’s a lot of utility there, but I think we also need to be practical and recognize that enterprises have gotten comfortable with the OS landscape that they have.” — @cmcluck [0:14:54] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Craig McLuckie on LinkedIn Craig McLuckie on Twitter The Podlets on Twitter Kubernetes VMware Brendan Burns Cloud Native Computing Foundation Heptio Mesos Valero vSphere Red Hat IBM Microsoft Amazon KubeCon Transcript: EPISODE 13 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically-minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets podcast, and today we have a special guest, Craig McLuckie. Craig, I have the hardest time pronouncing your last name. You will correct me, but let me just quickly say, well, I’m Carlisia Campos and today we also have Duffy Colley and Josh Rosso on the show. Say that three times fast, Craig McLuckie. Please help us say your last name and give us a brief introduction. You are super well-known in the Kubernetes community and inside VMware, but I’m sure there are not enough people that should know about you that didn’t know about you. [00:01:20] CM: All right. I’ll do a very quick intro. Hi, I’m Craig McLuckie. I’m a Vice President of Research and Development here at VMware. Prior of VMware, I spent a fair amount of time at Google where my friend Joe and I were responsible for building and shipping Google Compute Engine, which was an interesting exercise in bringing traditional enterprise virtualized workloads into the very sophisticated Google data center. We then went ahead and as our next project with Brendan Burns, started Kubernetes, and that obviously worked out okay, and I was also responsible for the ideation and formation of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I then wanted to work with Joe again. So we started Heptio, a little startup in the Kubernetes ecosystem. Almost precisely a year ago, we were acquired by VMware. So I’m now part of the VMware company and I’m working on our broader strategy around cloud native apps under the brand [inaudible 00:02:10]. [00:02:11] CC: Let me start off with a question. I think it is going to be my go-to first question for every guest that we have in the show. Some people are really well-versed in the cloud native technologies and Kubernetes and some people are completely not. Some people are asking really good questions out there, and I try to too as I’m one of those people who are still learning. So my question for you is what do you think people are asking that they are not asking the right frame, that you wish they would be asking that question in a different way. [00:02:45] CM: It’s a very interesting question. I don’t think there’s any bad questions in the world, but one question I encountered a fair bit is, “Hey, I’ve heard about this Kubernetes thing and I want one.” I’m not sure it’s actually the right question, right? Kubernetes is a powerful technology. I definitely think we’re in this sort of peak hype phase of the project. There are a set of opportunities that Kubernetes really brings a much more robust ability to manage, it abstracts a way infrastructure — there are some very powerful things. But to be able to be really successful with Kubernetes project, there’re a number of additional ingredients that really need to be thought through. The questions that ought to be asked are, "I understand the utility of Kubernetes and I believe that it would bring value to my organization, but do I have the skills and capabilities necessary to stand up and run a successful Kubernetes program?" That’s something to really think about. It’s not just about the nature of the technology, but it really brings in a lot of new concepts that challenge organizations. If we think about applications that exist in Kubernetes, there’s challenges with observability. When you think the mechanics of delivering into a containerized sort of environment, there are a lot of dos and don’ts that make a ton of sense there. A lot of organizations I’ve worked with are excited about the technology, but they don’t necessarily have the depth of understanding of where it's best used and then how to operate it. The second addendum to that is, “Okay, I’m able to deploy Kubernetes, but what happens the next day? What happens if I need to update it? When I need to maintain it? What happens when I discover that I need not one Kubernetes cluster or even 10 Kubernetes clusters, but a hundred or a thousand or 10,000.” Which is what we are starting to see out there in the industry. “Have I taken the right first step on that journey to set me up for success in the long-term?” I do think there’s just a tremendous amount of opportunity and excitement around the technology, but also think it’s something that organizations really need to look at as not just about deploying a platform technology, but introducing the necessary skills that are necessary to operate and maintain it and the supporting technologies that are necessary to get the workloads on to it in a sustainable way. [00:04:42] JR: You’ve raised a number of assumptions around how people think about it I think, which are interesting. Even just starting with the idea of the packaging problem that represents containerization is a reasonable start. So infrequently, do we describe like the context of the problems that — all of the problems that Kubernetes solve that frequently I think people just get way ahead of themselves. It’s a pretty good description. [00:05:04] DC: So maybe in a similar vein, Craig, we had mentioned all the pieces that go into running Kubernetes successfully. You have to bolt some things on maybe for security or do some things to ensure observability as adequate, and it seems like the ecosystem has taken notice of all those needs and has built a million projects and products around that space. I’m curious of your thoughts on that because it’s like in one way it’s great because it shows it’s really healthy and thriving. In another way, it causes a lot of fragmentation and confusion for people who are thinking whether they can or cannot run Ku, because there are so many options out there to accomplish those kinds of things. So I was just curious of your general thoughts on that and where it’s headed. [00:05:43] CM: It’s fascinating to see the sort of burgeoning ecosystem around Kubernetes, and I think it’s heartening, because if you think at the very highest level, the world is going to go one of two ways with the introduction of the hyper-scale public cloud. It’s either going to lead us into a world which feels like mainframe era again, where no one ever got [inaudible 00:06:01] Amazon in this case, or by Microsoft, whatever the case. Whoever sort of merges over time as the dominant force. But it also represents some challenges where you have these vertically integrated closed systems, innovation becomes prohibitively difficult. It’s hard to innovate in a closed system, because you’re innovating only for organizations that have already taken that dependancy. I think Kubernetes has opened it up, not just in terms of the world of applications that can run Kubernetes, but also this burgeoning ecosystem of supporting technologies that can create value. There’s a reason why startups are building around Kubernetes. There’s a reason they’re looking to solve these problems. I do think we’ll see a continued period of consolidation. You're not a cool mainstream enterprise software provider if you don’t have a Kubernetes story today. I think we’ll start to see continued focus and consolidation around a set of the larger organizations that are operating in this space. It’s not accidental that Heptio is a part of VMware at this point. When I looked at the ecosystem, it was pretty clear we need to take a boat to fully materialize the value of Kubernetes and I am pleased to be part of this organization. So I do think you’ll start to see a variety of different vendors emerging with a pretty clear, well-defined opinions and relatively turnkey solutions that address the gamut of capabilities. One organization needs to get into Kubernetes. One of the things that delights me about Kubernetes is that if you are a sophisticated organization that is self-identifying as a software company, and this is sort of manifest in the internet space if you’re running a sort of hyper-scale internet service, you are kind of by definition a software company. You probably have the skills on hand to make great choices around what projects, follow the communities, identify when things are reaching point of critical mass. You’re running in a space where your system is relatively homogenous. You don’t have just the sort of massive gamut of workloads, a lot of dimension enterprise organizations have. There’s going to be different approaches to the ecosystem depending on which organization is looking at the problem space. I do think this is prohibitively challenging for a lot of organizations that are not resourced at the level of a hyper-scale internet company from a technology perspective, where their day job isn’t running a production service for millions or billions of users. I do think situations like that, it makes a tremendous amount of sense to identify and work with someone you trust in the ecosystem, that can help you just navigate the wild map that is the Kubernetes landscape, that can participate in a number of these emerging communities that has the ability to put their thumb on the scale where necessary to make sure that things converge. I think it’s situational. I think the lovely thing about Kubernetes is that it does give organizations a chance to cut their teeth without having to dig into like a deep procurement cyclewith a major vendor. We see a lot of self-service Kubernetes projects getting initiated. But at some point, almost inevitably, people need a little bit more help, and that’s the role of a lot of these vendors. I think that I truly hope that I’m personally committed to, is that as we start to see the convergence of this ecosystem, as we start to see the pieces falling into place, that we retain an emphasis on the value of community that we also sort of avoid the balkanization and fragmentation, which sometimes comes out of these types of systems. We are so much better served as a software company if we can preserve consistency from environment to environment. The reality is as we start looking at large organizations, enterprises that are consuming Kubernetes, it’s almost inevitable that they’re going to be consuming Kubernetes from a number of different sources. Whether the sources are cloud provider delivering Kubernetes services or whether they handle Kubernetes clusters that are dedicated centralized IT team is delivering or whether it’s vendor provided Kubernetes. There’s going to be a lot of different flavors and variants on it. I think working within the community not as king makers, but as concerned citizens that are looking to make sure that there are very high-levels of consistency from offering to offering, means that our customers are going to be better served. We’re right now in a time where this technology is burgeoning. It’s highly scrutinized, but it’s not necessarily very widely deployed. So I think it’s important to just keep an eye on that sort of community centricity. Stay as true to our stream as possible. Avoid balkanization, and I think everyone will benefit from that. [00:10:16] DC: Makes sense. One of the things I took away from my year, I was just looking kind of back at my year and learning, consolidating my thoughts on what had happened. One of the big takeaways for me in my customer engagements this year was that a number of customers outright came out explicitly and said, “Our success as a company is not going to be measured by our ability to operate Kubernetes, which is true and obvious.” But at the same time, I think that that’s a really interesting moment of awareness for a lot of the people that I work with out there in the field, where they realized, you know what, Kubernetes may be the next best thing. It may be an incredible technology, but fundamentally, it’s not going to be the measure by which we are graded success. It’s going to be what we do on top of that that is more interesting. So I think that your point about that ecosystem is large enough that people will be consuming Kubernetes for multiple searches is sort of amplified by that, because people are going to look for that easy button as inroad. They’re going to look for some way to get the Kubernetes thing so that they can actually start exploring what will happen on top of it as their primary goal rather than how to get Kubernetes from an operational perspective or even understand the care and feeding of it because they don’t see that as the primary measure of success. [00:11:33] CM: That is entirely true. When I think about enterprise software, there’s sort of these three pieces of it. The first piece is the sort of crystaline core of enterprise software. That’s consistent from enterprise to enterprise to enterprise. It’s purchased from primary vendors or it’s built by open source communities. It represents a significant basis for everything. There’s the sort of peripheral, the sort of sea of applications that exist around that enterprises built that are entirely unique to their environment, and they’re relatively fluid. Then there’s this weird sort of interstitial layer, which is the integration glue that exists between their crystalline core and those applications and operating practices that enterprises create. So I think from my side, we benefit if that crystalline core is as large as possible so that enterprises don’t have to rely on bespoke integration practices as much possible. We also need to make allowances for the idea that that interstitial layer between the sort of core of a technology like Kubernetes and the applications may be modular or sort of extended by a variety of different vendors. If you’re operating in this space, like the telco space, your problems are going to be unique to telco, but they’re going to be shared by every other telco provider. One of the beautiful things about Kubernetes is it is sufficiently modular, it is a pretty well-thought resistant. So I think we will start to see a lot of specialization in terms of those integration pieces. A lot of specialization in terms of how Kubernetes is fit to a specific area, and I think that represents an awful opportunity for the community to continue to evolve. But I also think it means that we as contributors to the project need to make allowances for that. We can’t hold opinion to the point where it precludes massive significant value for organizations as they look at modularized and extending the platform. [00:13:19] CC: What is your opinion on people making specialized Kubernetes operating systems? For example, we’re talking about telcos. I think there’s a Kubernetes OSS specifically for telcos that strip away things that kind of industry doesn’t need. What are the tradeoffs that you see? [00:13:39] CM: It’s almost inevitable that you’re going to start to see specialized operating system distributions that are tailored to container-based workloads. I think as we start looking at like the telco space with network function virtualization, Kubernetes promises to be something that we never really saw before. At the end of the day, telco is very broadly deployed open stack as this primary substrate for network function virtualization. But at the end of the day, they ended up not just deploying one rendition of open stack. But in many cases, three, four, five, depending on what functions they wanted to run, and there wasn’t a sufficient commonality in terms of the implementations. It became very sort of vendor-centric and balkanized in many ways. I think there’s an opportunity here to work hard as a community to drive convergence around a lot of those Kubernetes constructs so that, sure, the operating system is going to be different. If you’re running an NFV data plane implementation, doing a lot of bit slinging, it’s going to look fundamentally different to anything else in the industry, right? But that shouldn’t necessarily mean that you can’t use the same tools to organize, manage and reason about the workloads. A lot of the innovations that happen above that shouldn’t necessarily be tied to that. I think there’s promise there and it’s going to be an amazing test for Kubernetes itself to see how well it scales into those environments. By and large, I’m a fan of rendered down, container-optimized operating system distributions. There’s a lot of utility there, but I think we also need to be practical and recognize that enterprises have gotten comfortable with the OS landscape that they have. So we have to make allowances that as part of containerizing and distributing your application, maybe you don’t necessarily need to and hopefully re-qualify the underlying OS and challenge a lot of the assumptions. So I think we just need to pragmatic about it. [00:15:19] DC: I know that’s a dear topic to Josh and I. We’ve fought that battle in the past as well. I do think it’s another one of those things where it’s a set of assumptions. It’s fascinating to me how many different ecosystems are sort of collapsing, maybe not ecosystems. How many different audiences are brought together by a technology like container orchestration. That you are having that conversation with, “You know what? Let’s just change the paradigm for operating systems.” That you are having that conversation with, “Let’s change the paradigm for observability and lifecycle stuff. Let’s change the paradigm for packaging. We’ll call it containers.” You know what I mean? It’s so many big changes in one idea. It’s crazy. [00:15:54] CM: It’s a little daunting if you think about it, right? I always say, change is easiest across one dimension, right? If I’m going to change everything all at once across all the dimensions, life gets really hard. I think, again, it’s one of these things where Kubernetes represents a lot of value. I walk into a lot of customer accounts and I spend a lot of time with customers. I think based on their experiences, they sort of make one of two assumptions. There’s a set of vendors that will come into an environment and say, “Hey, just run this tool against your virtual machine images – and Kubernetes, right?” Then they have another set of vendors that will come in and say, “Yeah. Hey, you just need to go like turn this thing into 12 factor cloud native service mesh-linked applications driven through CICD, and your life is magic.” There are some cases where it makes sense, but there’re some cases where it just doesn’t. Hey, what uses a 24 gigabyte container? Is that really solving the problems that you have in some systematic way? At the other end of the spectrum, like there’s no world in which an enterprise organization is rewriting 3,000, 5,000 applications to be cloud native from the ground up. It just is not going to happen, right? So just understanding the return investment associated with the migration into Kubernetes. I’m not saying where it make sense and where it doesn’t. It’s such an important part of this story. [00:17:03] JR: On that front, and this is something Duffy and I talk to our customers about all the time. Say you’re sitting with someone and you’re talking about potentially using Kubernetes or they’re thinking about it, are there like some key indicators that you see, Craig, as like, “Okay. Maybe Kubernetes does have that return on investment pretty soon to justify it." Or maybe even in the reverse, like some things where you think, “Okay, these people are just going to implement Kubernetes and it’s going to become shelf weary.” How do you qualify as an org, “I might be ready to bring on something like Kubernetes.” [00:17:32] CM: It’s interesting. For me, it’s almost inevitably – as much about the human skills as anything else. I mean, the technology itself isn’t rocket science. I think the sort of critical success criteria, when I start looking at engagement, is there a cultural understanding of what Kubernetes represents? Kubernetes is not easy to use. That initial [inaudible 00:17:52] to the face is kind of painful for people that are used to different experiences. Making sure that the basic skills and expectations are met is really important. I think there’s definitely some sort of acid test around workloads fit as you start looking at Kubernetes. It’s an evolving ecosystem and it’s maturing pretty rapidly, but there are still areas that need a little bit more heavy lifting, right? So if you think about like, “Hey, I want to run a vertically-scaled OLTP database in Kubernetes today.” I don’t know. Maybe not the best choice. If the customer knows that, if they have enough familiarity or they’re willing to engage, I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense. By and large, the biggest challenge I see is not so much in the Kubernetes space. It’s easy enough to get to a basic cluster. There’re sort of two dimensions to this, there is day two operations. I see a lot of organizations that have worked to create scale up programs of platform technologies. Before Kubernetes there was Mesos and there’s obviously PCF that we’ll be coming more increasingly involved in. Organizations that have chewed on creating and deploying a standardized platform often have the operational skills, but you also need to look at like why did that previous technology really meet sort of criteria, and do you have the skills to operate it on a day two basis? Often there’s not – They’ve worked out the day two operational issues, but they still haven’t figured out like what it means to create a modern software supply chain that can deliver into the Kubernetes space. They haven’t figured out necessarily how to create the right incentive structures and experiences for the developers that are looking to build, package and deliver into that environment. That’s probably the biggest point of frustration I see with enterprises, is, “Okay. I got to Kubernetes. Now what?” That question just hasn’t been answered. They haven’t really thought through, “These are the CICD processes. This is how you engage your cyber team to qualify the platform for these classes of workloads. This is how you set up a container repo and run scans against it. This is how you assign TTL on images, so you don’t just get massive repo.” There’s so much in the application domain that just needs to exist that I think people often trivialize and it’s really taking the time and picking a couple of projects being measured in the investments. Making sure you have the right kind of cultural profile of teams that are engaged. Create that sort of celebratory moment of success. Make sure that the team is sort of metricking and communicating the productivity improvements, etc. That really drives the option and engagement with the whole customer base. [00:20:11] CC: It sounds to me like you have a book in the making. [00:20:13] CM: Oh! I will never write a book. It just seems like a lot of work. Brendan and a buch of my friends write books. Yeah, that seems like a whole lot of work. [00:20:22] DC: You had mentioned that you decided you wanted to work with Joe again. You formed Heptio. I was actually there for a year. I think I was around for a bit longer than that obviously. I’m curious what your thoughts about that were as an experiment win. If you just think about it as that part of the journey, do you think that was a success and what did you learn from that whole experiment that you wished everybody knew, just from a business perspective? It might have been business or it might have been running a company, any of that stuff. [00:20:45] CM: So I’m very happy with the way that Heptio went. There were a few things that sort of stood out for me as things that folks should think about if they’re going to start a startup or they want to join a startup. The first and foremost I would say is design the culture to the problem at hand. Culture isn’t accidental. I think that Heptio had a pretty distinct and nice culture, and I don’t want to sound self-congratulatory. I mean, as with anything, a certain amount of this is work, but a lot of it is luck as well. Making sure that the cultural identity of the company is well-suited to the problem at-hand. This is critical, right? When I think about what Heptio embodied, it was really tailored to the specific journey that we were setting ourselves up for. We were looking to be passionate advocates for Kubernetes. We were looking to walk the journey with our customers in an authentic way. We were looking to create a company that was built around sustainability. I think the culture is good and I encourage folks either the thing you’re starting is a startup or looking to join one, to think hard about that culture and how it’s going to map to the problems they’re trying to solve. The other thing that I think really motivated me to do Heptio, and I think this is something that I’m really excited to continue on with VMware, was the opportunity to walk the journey with customers. So many startups have this massive reticence to really engage deeply in professional services. In many ways, Google is fun. I had a blast there. It’s a great company to work for. We were able to build out some really cool tech and do good things. But I grew kind of tired of writing letters from the future. I was, “Okay, we are flying cars." When you're interacting with the customer. I can’t start my car and get to work. It’s great that you have flying cars, but right now I just need to get in my car, drive down the block and get out and get to work. So walking the journey with customers is probably the most important learning from Heptio and it’s one of the things I’m kind of most proud of. That opportunity to share the pain. Get involved from day one. Look at that as your most valuable apparatus to not just build your business, but also to learn what you need to build. Having a really smart set of people that are comfortable working directly with customers or invested in the success of those customers is so powerful. So if you’re in the business or in the startup game, investors may be leery of building out a significant professional service as a function, because that’s just how Silicon Valley works. But it is absolutely imperative in terms of your ability to engage with customers, particularly around nascent technologies, filled with gaps where the product doesn’t exist. Learn from those experiences and bring that back into the core product. It’s just a huge part of what we did. If I was ever in a situation where I had to advice a startup in the sort of open source space, I’d say lean into the professional service. Lean into field engineering. It’s a critical way to build your business. Learn what customers need. Walk the journey with them and just develop a deep empathy. [00:23:31] CC: With new technology, that was a concern about having enough professionals in the market who are knowledgeable in that new technology. There is always a gap for people to catch up with that. So I’m curious to know what customers or companies, prospective customers, how they are thinking in terms of finding professionals to help them? Are they’re concerned that there’s enough professionals in the market? Are they finding that the current people who are admins and operators are having an easy time because their skills are transferable, if they’re going to embark on the Kubernetes journey? What are they telling you? [00:24:13] CM: I mean, there’s a huge skills shortage. This is one of the kind of primary threats to the short term adoption of Kubernetes. I think Kubernetes will ultimately permeate enterprise organizations. I think it will become a standard for distributed systems development. Effectively emerging as an operating system for distributed systems, is people build more natively around Kubernetes. But right now it’s like the early days of Linux, where you deploy Linux, you’d have to kind of build it from scratch type of thing. It is definitely a challenge. For enterprise organizations, it’s interesting, because there’s a war for talent. There’s just this incredible appetite for Kubernetes talent. There’s always that old joke around the job description for like 10 years of Kubernetes experience on a five-year project. That certainly is something we see a lot. I’d take it from two sides. One is recognizing that as an enterprise organization, you are not going to be able to hire this talent. Just accept that sad truth. You can hire a seed crystal for it, but you really need to look at that as something that you’re going to build out as an enablement function for your own consumption. As you start assessing individuals that you’re going to bring on in that role, don’t just assess for Kubernetes talent. Assess for the ability to teach. Look for people that can come in and not just do, but teach and enable others to do it, right? Because at the end of the day, if you need like 50 Kubernauts at a certain level, so does your competitor and all of your other competitors. So does every other function out there. There’s just massive shortage of skills. So emphasizing your own – taking on the responsibility of building your own expertise. Educating your own organization. Finding ways to identify people that are motivated by this type of technology and creating space for them and recognizing and rewarding their work as they build this out. Because it’s far more practical to hire into existing skillset and then create space so that the people that have the appetite and capability to really absorb these types of disruptive technologies can do so within the parameters of your organization. Create the structures to support them and then make it their job to help permeate that knowledge and information into the organization. It’s just not something you can just bring in. The skills just don’t exist in the broader world. Then for professionals that are interested in Kubernetes, this is definitely a field that I think we’ll see a lot of job security for a very long-time. Taking on that effort, it’s just well worth the journey. Then I’d say the other piece of this is for vendors like VMware, our job can’t be just delivering skills and delivering technology. We need to think about our role as an enablers in the ecosystem as folks that are helping not just build up our own expertise of Kubernetes that we can represent to customers, but we’re well-served by our customers developing their own expertise. It’s not a threat to us. It actually enables them to consume the technologies that we provide. So focusing on that enablement through us as integration partners and [inaudible] community, focusing on enablement for our customers and education programs and the things that they need to start building out their capacity internally, is going to serve us all well. [00:27:22] JR: Something going back to maybe the Heptio conversation, I’m super interested in this. Being a very open source-oriented company, at VMware this is of course this true as well. We have to engage with large groups of humans from all different kinds of companies and we have to do that while building and shipping product to some degree. So where I’m going with this is like – I remember back in the Heptio days, there was something with dynamic audit logging that we were struggling with, and we needed it for some project we were working on. But we needed to get consensus in a designed approve at like a bigger community level. I do know to some degree that did limit our ability to ship quickly. So you probably know where I’m going with this. When you’re working on projects or products, how do you balance, making sure the whole community is coming along with you, but also making sure that you can actually ship something? [00:28:08] DM: That harkens back to that sort of catch phrase that Tim Sinclair always uses. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I think as with almost everything in the world, these things are situational, right? There are situations where it is so critical that you bring the community along with you that you don’t find yourself carrying the load for something by yourself that you just have to accept and absorb that it’s going to be pushing string. Working with an engaged community necessitates consensus, necessitates buy-in not just from you, but from potentially your competitors. The people that you’re working with and recognizing that they’ll be doing their own sort of mental calculus around whether this advantages them or not and whatnot. But hopefully, I think certainly in the Kubernetes community, this is general recognition that making the underlying technology accessible. Making it ubiquitous, making it intrinsically supportable profits everyone. I think there’re a couple of things that I look at. Make the decision pretty early on as to whether this is something you want to kind of spark off and sort of stride off on your own an innovate around, whether it’s something that’s critical to bring the community along with you around. I’ll give you two examples of this, right? One example was the work we did around technologies like Valero, which is a backup restore product. It was an urgent and critical need to provide a sustainable way to back up and recover Kubernetes. So we didn’t have the time to do this through Kubernetes. But also it didn’t necessarily matter, because everything we’re doing was build this addendum to Kubernetes. That project created a lot of value and we’ve donated to open source project. Anyone can use it. But we took on the commitment to drive the development ourselves. It’s not just we need it to. Because we had to push very quickly in that space. Whereas if you look at the work that we’re doing around things like cluster API and the sort of broader provisioning of Kubernetes, it’s so important that the ecosystem avoids the tragedy of the commons around things like lifecycle management. It’s so important that we as a community converge on a consistent way to reason about the deployment upgrade and scaling of Kubernetes clusters. For any single vendor to try to do that by themselves, they’re going to take on the responsibility of dealing with not just one or two environments if you’re a hyperscale cloud provider [inaudible 00:30:27] many can do that. But we think about doing that for, in our case, “Hey, we only deploy into vSphere. Not just what’s coming next, but also earlier versions of vSphere. We need to be able to deploy into all of the hyper-scalers. We need to deploy into some of the emerging cloud providers. We need to start reasoning about edge. We need to start thinking about all of these. We’re a big company and we have a lot of engineers. But you’re going to get stretched very thin, very quickly if you try to chew that off by yourself. So I think a lot of it is situational. I think there are situations where it does pay for organizations to kind of innovate, charge off in a new direction. Run an experiment. See if it sticks. Over time, open that up to the community as it makes sense. The thing that I think is most important is that you just wear your heart on your sleeve. The worst thing you can do is to present a charter that, “Hey, we’re doing this as a community-centric, open project with open design, open community, open source,” and then change your mind later, because that just creates dramas. I think it’s situational. Pick the path that makes sense to the problem at-hand. Figure out how long your customer can wait for something. Sometimes you can bring things back to communities that are very open and accepting community. You can look at it as an experiment, and if it makes sense in that experiment perform factor, present it back to the Kubernetes communities and see if you can kind of get it back in. But in some case it just makes sense to work within the structure and constraints of the community and just accept that great things from a community angle take a lot of time. [00:31:51] CC: I think too, one additional thing that I don’t think was mentioned is that if a project grows too big, you can always break it off. I mean, Kubernetes is such a great example of that. Break it off into separate components. Break it off into separate governance groups, and then parts can move with different speeds. [00:32:09] CM: Yeah, and there’s all kinds of options. So the heart of it is no one rule, right? It’s entirely situational. What are you trying to accomplish on what arise and acknowledge and accept that the evolution of the core of Kubernetes is slowing as it should. That’s a signal that the project is maturing. You cannot deliver value at a longer timeline that your business or your customers can absorb then maybe it makes sense to do something on the outside. Just wear your heart on your sleeve and make sure your customers and your partners know what you’re doing. [00:32:36] DC: One of your earlier points about how do companies – I think Josh's question and was around how do companies attract talent. You’re basically pointing, and I think that there are some relation to this particular topic because, frequently, I’ve seen companies find some success by making room for open source or upstream engineers to focus on the Kubernetes piece and to help drive that adoption internally. So if you’re going to adopt something like a Kubernetes strategy as part of a larger company goal, if you can actually make room within your organization to bring people who are – or to support people who want to focus on that up stream, I think that you get a lot of ancillary benefits from that, including it makes it easier to adopt that technology and understand it and actually have some more skin in the game around where the open source project itself is going. [00:33:25] CM: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the lovely things about the Kubernetes community is this idea of your position is earned, not granted, right? The way that you earn influence and leadership and basically the good will of everyone else in that community is by chopping wood, carrying water. Doing the things that are good for the community. Over time, any organization, any human being can become influential and lead based on their merits of their contributions. It’s important that vendors think about that. But at the same time, I have a hard time taking exception with practically any use of open source. At the end of the day, open source by its nature is a leap of faith. You’re making that technology accessible. If someone else can take it, operationalize it well and deliver value for organizations, that’s part of your contract. That’s what you absorb as a vendor when you start the thing. So people shouldn’t feel like they have to. But if you want to influence and lead, you do need to. Participate in these communities in an open way. [00:34:22] DC: When you were helping form the CNCF and some of those projects, did you foresee it being like a driving goal for people, not just vendors, but also like consumers of the technologies associated with those foundations? [00:34:34] CM: Yeah, it was interesting. Starting the CNCF, I can speak from the position of where I was inside Google. I was highly motivated by the success of Kubernetes. Not just personally motivated, because it was a project that I was working on. I was motivated to see it emerge as a standard for distributed systems development that attracts the way the infrastructure provider. I’m not ashamed of it. It was entirely self-serving. If you looked at Google’s market position at that time, if you looked at where we were as a hyper-scale cloud provider. Instituting something that enabled the intrinsic mobility of workloads and could shuffle around the cards on the deck so to speak [inaudible 00:35:09]. I also felt very privileged that that was our position, because we didn’t necessarily have to create artificial structures or constraints around the controls of the system, because that process of getting something to become ubiquitous, there’s a natural path if you approach it as a single provider. I’m not saying who couldn’t have succeeded with Kubernetes as a single provider. But if Red Hat and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon had all piled on to something else, it’s less obvious, right? It’s less obvious that Kubernetes would have gone as far as it did. So I was setting up CNCF, I was highly motivated by preserving the neutrality. Creating structures that separated the various sort of forms of governance. I always joke that at the time of creating CNCF, I was motivated by the way the U.S. Constitution is structured. Where you have these sort of different checks and balances. So I wanted to have something that would separate vendor interests from things that are maintaining taste on the discreet project. The sort of architecture integrity, and maintain separation from customer segments, so that you’d create the sort of natural self-balancing system. It was definitely in my thinking, and I think it worked out pretty well. Certainly not perfect, but it did lead down a path which I think has supported the success of the project a fair bit. [00:36:26] DC: So we talked a lot about Kubernetes. I’m curious, do you have some thoughts, Carlisia? [00:36:31] CC: Actually, I know you have a question about microliths. I was very interested in exploring that. [00:36:37] CM: There’s an interesting pattern that I see out there in the industry and this manifests in a lot of different ways, right? When you think about the process of bringing applications and workloads into Kubernetes, there’s this sort of pre-dispositional bias towards, “Hey, I’ve got this monolithic application. It’s vertically scaled. I’m having a hard time with the sort of team structure. So I’m going to start tuning it up into a set of microservices that I can then manage discretely and ideally evolve on a separate cadence. This is an example of a real customer situation where someone said, “Hey, I’ve just broken this monolith down into 27 microservices.” So I was sort of asking a couple of questions. The first one was when you have to update those 27 – if you want to update one of those, how many do you have to touch? The answer was 27. I was like, “Ha! You just created a microlith.” It’s like a monolith, except it’s just harder to live with. You’re taking a packaging problem and turn it into a massively complicated orchestration problem. I always use that jokingly, but there’s something real there, which is there’s a lot of secondary things you need to think through as you start progressing on this cloud native journey. In the case of microservice development, it’s one thing to have API separated microservices. That’s easy enough to institute. But instituting the organization controls around an API versioning strategy such you can start to establish stable API with consistent schema and being able to sort of manage the dependencies to consuming teams requires a level of sophistication that a lot of organizations haven’t necessarily thought through. So it’s very easy to just sort of get caught up in the hype without necessarily thinking through what happens downstream. It’s funny. I see the same thing in functions, right? I interact with organizations and they’re like, “Wow! We took this thing that was running in a container and we turned it into 15 different functions.” I’m like, “Ha! Okay.” You start asking questions like, “Well, do you have any challenges with state coherency?” They’re like, “Yeah! It’s funny you say that. Because these things are a little bit less transactionally coherent, we have to write state watches. So we try and sort of watermark state and watch this thing." I’m like, “You’re building a distributed transaction coordinator on your free time. Is this really the best use of your resources?" Right? So it really gets back to that idea that there’s a different tool for a different job. Sometimes the tool is a virtual machine. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes the tool is a bare metal deployment. If you’re building a quantitative trading application that’s microsecond latency sensitive, you probably don’t want to hypervisor there. Sometimes a VM is the natural destination and there’s no reason to move from a VM. Sometimes it’s a container. Sometimes you want to start looking at that container and just modularizing it so you can run a set of things next to each other in the same process space. Sometimes you’re going to want to put APIs between those things and separate them out into separate containers. There’s an ROI. There’s a cause and there’s a benefit associated with each of those transitions. More importantly, there are a set of skills that you have to have as you start looking at their continuum and making sure that you’re making good choices and being wise about it. [00:39:36] CC: That is a very good observation. Design is such an important part of software development. I wonder if Kubernetes helps mask these design problems. For example, the ones you are mentioning, or does Kubernetes sort of surfaces them even more? [00:39:53] CM: It’s an interesting philosophical question. Kubernetes certainly masks some problems. I ran into an early – this is like years ago. I ran into an early customer, who confided in me, "I think we’re writing worse code now." I was like, ”What do you mean?” He was like, “Well, it used to be when we went out of memory on something, we get paged. Now we’ve set out that we go and it just restarts the container and everything continuous.” There’s no real incentive for the engineers to actually go back and deal with the underlying issues and recourse it, because the system is just more intrinsically robust and self-healing by nature. I think there's definitely some problems that Kubernetes will compound. If you’re very sloppy with your dependencies, if you create a really large, vertically scaled monolith that’s running at VM today, putting it in a container is probably strictly going to make your life worse. Just be respectful of that. But at the same time, I do think that the discipline associated with transition to Kubernetes, if you walk it a little bit further along. If you start thinking about the fact that you’re not running a lot of imperative processes during a production in a push, where deployment container is effectively a bin copy with some minimal post-deployment configuration changes that happen. It sort of leads you on to a much happier path naturally. I think it can mask some issues, but by and large, the types of systems you end up building are going to be more intrinsically operationally stable and scalable. But it is also worth recognizing that it’s — you are going to encounter corner cases. I’ve run into a lot of customers that will push the envelope in a direction that was unanticipated by the community or they accidentally find themselves on new ground that’s just unstable, because the technology is relatively nascent. So just recognizing that if you’re going to walk down a new path, I’m not saying don’t, just recognize that you’re probably going to encounter some stuff that’s going to take over to working through. [00:41:41] DC: We get an earlier episode about API contracts, which I think highlights some of these stuff as well, because it sort of gets into some of those sharp edges of like why some of those things are super important when you start thinking about microservices and stuff. We’re coming to the end of our time, but one of the last questions I want to ask you, we’ve talked a lot about Kubernetes in this episode, I’m curious what the future holds. We see a lot of really interesting things happening in the ecosystem around moving more towards serverless. There are a lot of people who are like — thinking that perhaps a better line would be to move away from like infrastructure offering and just basically allow cloud providers in this stuff to manage your nodes for you. We have a few shots on goal for that ourselves. It’s been really an interesting evolution over the last year in that space. I’m curious, what sort of lifetime would you ascribe to it today? What do you think that this is going to be the thing in 10 years? Do you think it will be a thing in 5 years? What do you see coming that might change it? [00:42:32] CM: It’s interesting. Well, first of all, I think 2018 was the largest year ever for mainframe sales. So we have these technologies, once they’re in enterprise, it tends to be pretty durable. The duty cycle of enterprise software technology is pretty long-lived. The real question is we’ve seen a lot of technologies in this space emerge, ascend, reach a point of critical mass and then fade and they’re disrupted by the technologies. Is Kubernetes going to be a Linux or is Kubernetes going to be a Mesos, right? I mean, I don’t claim to know the answer. My belief, and I think this is probably true, is that it’s more like a Linux. When you think about the heart of what Kubernetes is doing, is it’s just providing a better way to build and organized distributed systems. I’m sure that the code will evolve rapidly and I’m sure there will be a lot of continued innovation enhancement. But when you start thinking about the fact that what Kubernetes has really done is brought controller reconciler based management to distributed systems developed everywhere. When you think about the fact that pretty much every system these days is distributed by nature, it really needs something that supports that model. So I think we will see Kubernetes sticking. We’ll see it become richer. We’ll start to see it becoming more applicable for a lot of things that we’re starting to just running in VMs. It may well continue to run in VMs and just be managed by Kubernetes. I don’t have an opinion about how to reason about the underlying OS and virtualization structure. The thing I do have opinion about is it makes a ton of sense to be able to use a declarative framework. Use a set of well-structured controllers and reconcilers to drive your world into a non-desired state. I think that pattern will be – it’s been quite successful. It can be quite durable. I think we’ll start to see organizations embrace a lot of these technologies over time. It is possible that something brighter, shinier, newer, comes along. Anyone will tell you that we made enough mistakes during the journey and there is stuff that I think everyone regret some of the Kubernetes train. I do think it’s likely to be pretty durable. I don’t think it’s a silver bullet. Nothing is, right? It’s like any of these technologies, there’s always the cost and there’s a benefit associated with it. The benefits are relatively well-understood. But there’s going to be different tools to do different jobs. There’s going to be new patterns that emerge that simplify things. Is Kubernetes the best framework for running functions? I don’t know. Maybe. Kind of like what the [inaudible] people are doing. But are there more intrinsically optimal ways to do this, maybe. I don’t know. [00:45:02] JR: It has been interesting watching Kubernetes itself evolve in that moving target. Some of the other technologies I’ve seen kind of stagnate on their one solution and don’t grow further. But that’s definitely not what I see within this community. It’s like always coming up with something new. Anyway, thank you very much for your time. That was an incredible session. [00:45:22] CM: Yeah. Thank you. It’s always fun to chat. [00:45:24] CC: Yeah. We’ll definitely have you back, Craig. Yes, we are coming up at the end, but I do want to ask if you have any thoughts that you haven’t brought up or we haven’t brought up that you’d like to share with the audience of this podcast. [00:45:39] CM: I guess the one thing that was going through my head earlier I didn’t say which is as you look at these technologies, there’s sort of these two duty cycles. There’s the hype duty cycle, where technology ascends in awareness and everyone looks at it as an answer to all the everythings. Then there’s the readiness duty cycle, which is sometimes offset. I do think we’re certainly peak hype right now in Kubernetes if you attended KubeCon. I do think there’s perhaps a gap between the promise and the reality for a lot of organizations. It's always just council caution and just be judicious about how you approach this. It’s a very powerful technology and I see a very bright future for it. Thanks for your time. [00:46:17] CC: Really, thank you so much. It’s so refreshing to hear from you. You have great thoughts. With that, thank you very much. We will see you next week. [00:46:28] JR: Thanks, everybody. See you. [00:46:29] DC: Cheers, folks. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:46:31] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode of The Podlets Podcast, we welcome Michael Gasch from VMware to join our discussion on the necessity (or not) of formal education in working in the realm of distributed systems. There is a common belief that studying computer science is a must if you want to enter this field, but today we talk about the various ways in which individuals can teach themselves everything they need to know. What we establish, however, is that you need a good dose of curiosity and craziness to find your feet in this world, and we discuss the many different pathways you can take to fully equip yourself. Long gone are the days when you needed a degree from a prestigious school: we give you our hit-list of top resources that will go a long way in helping you succeed in this industry. Whether you are someone who prefers learning by reading, attending Meetups or listening to podcasts, this episode will provide you with lots of new perspectives on learning about distributed systems. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: • Introducing our new host, Michael Gasch, and a brief overview of his role at VMware. • Duffie and Carlisia’s educational backgrounds and the value of hands-on work experience. • How they first got introduced to distributed systems and the confusion around what it involves. • Why distributed systems are about more than simply streamlining communication and making things work. • The importance and benefit of educating oneself on the fundamentals of this topic. • Our top recommended resources for learning about distributed systems and their concepts. • The practical downside of not having a formal education in software development. • The different ways in which people learn, index and approach problem-solving. • Ensuring that you balance reading with implementation and practical experience. • Why it’s important to expose yourself to discussions on the topic you want to learn about. • The value of getting different perspectives around ideas that you think you understand. • How systems thinking is applicable to things outside of computer science.• The various factors that influence how we build systems. Quotes: “When people are interacting with distributed systems today, or if I were to ask like 50 people what a distributed system is, I would probably get 50 different answers.” — @mauilion [0:14:43] “Try to expose yourself to the words, because our brains are amazing. Once you get exposure, it’s like your brain works in the background. All of a sudden, you go, ‘Oh, yeah! I know this word.’” — @carlisia [0:14:43] “If you’re just curious a little bit and maybe a little bit crazy, you can totally get down the rabbit hole in distributed systems and get totally excited about it. There’s no need for having formal education and the degree to enter this world.” — @embano1 [0:44:08] Learning resources suggested by the hosts: Book, Designing Data-Intensive Applications, M. Kleppmann Book, Distributed Systems, M. van Steen and A.S. Tanenbaum (free with registration) Book, Thesis on Raft, D. Ongaro. - Consensus - Bridging Theory and Practice (free PDF) Book, Enterprise Integration Patterns, B.Woolf, G. Hohpe Book, Designing Distributed Systems, B. Burns (free with registration) Video, Distributed Systems Video, Architecting Distributed Cloud Applications Video, Distributed Algorithms Video, Operating System - IIT Lectures Video, Intro to Database Systems (Fall 2018) Video, Advanced Database Systems (Spring 2018) Paper, Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System Post, Notes on Distributed Systems for Young Bloods Post, Distributed Systems for Fun and Profit Post, On Time Post, Distributed Systems @The Morning Paper Post, Distributed Systems @Brave New Geek Post, Aphyr’s Class materials for a distributed systems lecture series Post, The Log - What every software engineer should know about real-time data’s unifying abstraction Post, Github - awesome-distributed-systems Post, Your Coffee Shop Doesn’t Use Two-Phase Commit Podcast, Distributed Systems Engineering with Apache Kafka ft. Jason Gustafson Podcast, The Systems Bible - The Beginner’s Guide to Systems Large and Small - John Gall Podcast, Systems Programming - Designing and Developing Distributed Applications - Richard Anthony Podcast, Distributed Systems - Design Concepts - Sunil Kumar Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Michael Gasch on LinkedIn — https://de.linkedin.com/in/michael-gasch-10603298 Michael Gasch on Twitter — https://twitter.com/embano1 Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisia Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilion VMware — https://www.vmware.com/ Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/ Linux — https://www.linux.org Brian Grant on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/bgrant0607 Kafka — https://kafka.apache.org/ Lamport Article — https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/time-clocks.pdf Designing Date-Intensive Applications — https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Intensive-Applications-Reliable-Maintainable-ebook/dp/B06XPJML5D Designing Distributed Systems — https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Distributed-Systems-Patterns-Paradigms/dp/1491983647 Papers We Love Meetup — https://www.meetup.com/papers-we-love/ The Systems Bible — https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/dp/0961825170 Enterprise Integration Patterns — https://www.amazon.com/Enterprise-Integration-Patterns-Designing-Deploying/dp/0321200683 Transcript: EPISODE 12 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back. This is Episode 12, and we are going to talk about distributed systems without a degree or even with a degree, because who knows how much we learn in university. I am Carlisia Campos, one of your hosts. Today, I also have Duffie Cooley. Say hi, Duffie. [00:01:02] DC: Hey, everybody. [00:01:03] CC: And a new host for you, and this is such a treat. Michael Gasch, please tell us a little bit of your background. [00:01:11] MG: Hey! Hey, everyone! Thanks, Carlisia. Yes. So I’m new to the show. I just want to keep it brief because I think over the show we’ll discuss our backgrounds a little bit further. So right now, I’m with VMware. So I’ve been with VMware almost for five years. Currently, I'm in the office of the CTO. I’m a platform architect in the office of the CTO and I mainly use Kubernetes on a daily basis from an engineering perspective. So we build a lot of prototypes based on customer input or ideas that we have, and we work with different engineering teams. Kurbernetes has become kind of my bread and butter but lately more from a consumer perspective like developing with Kurbenetes or against Kubernetes, instead of the formal ware of mostly being around implementing and architecting Kubernetes. [00:01:55] CC: Nice. Very impressive. Duffie? [00:01:58] MG: Thank you. [00:01:59] DC: Yeah. [00:02:00] CC: Let’s give the audience a little bit of your backgrounds. We’ve done this before but just to frame the episodes, so people will know how we come in as distributed systems. [00:02:13] DC: Sure. In my experience, I spent – I don’t have a formal education history. I spent most of my time kind of like in a high school time. Then from there, basically worked into different systems administration, network administration, network architect, and up into virtualization and now containerization. So I’ve got a pretty hands-on kind of bootstrap experience around managing infrastructure, both at small-scale, inside of offices, and the way up to very large scale, working for some of the larger companies here in the Silicon Valley. [00:02:46] CC: All right. My turn I guess. So I do have a computer science degree but I don’t feel that I really went deep at all in distributed systems. My degree is also from a long time ago. So mainly, what I do know now is almost entirely from hands-on work experience. Even so, I think I'm very much lacking and I’m very interested in this episode, because we are going to go through some great resources that I am also going to check out later. So let’s get this party started. [00:03:22] DC: Awesome. So you want to just talk about kind of the general ideas behind distributed systems and like how you became introduced to them or like where you started in that journey? [00:03:32] CC: Yeah. Let’s do that. [00:03:35] DC: My first experience with the idea of distributed systems was in using them before I knew that they were distributed systems, right? One of the very first distributed systems as I look back on it that I ever actually spent any real time with was DNS, which I consider to be something of a distributed system. If you think about it, they have name servers, they have a bunch of caching servers. They solve many of the same sorts of problems. In a previous episode, we talked about how networking, just the general idea of networking and handling large-scale architecting networks. It’s also in a way very – has a lot of analogues into distributed systems. For me, I think working with and helping solve the problems that are associated with them over time gave me a good foundational understanding for when we were doing distributed systems as a thing later on in my career. [00:04:25] CC: You said something that caught my interest, and it’s very interesting, because obviously for people who have been writing algorithms, writing papers about distributed systems, they’re going to go yawning right now, because I’m going to say the obvious. As you start your journey programming, you read job requirements. You read or you must – should know distributed systems. Then I go, “What is distributed system? What do they really mean?” Because, yes, we understand apps stuck to apps and then there is API, but there’s always for me at least a question at the back of my head. Is that all there is to it? It sounds like it should be a lot more involved and complex and complicated than just having an app stuck on another app. In fact, it is because there are so many concepts and problems involved in distributed systems, right? From timing, clock, and sequence, and networking, and failures, how do you recover. There is a whole world in how do you log this properly, how do you monitor. There’s a whole world that revolves around this concept of systems residing in different places and [inaudible 00:05:34] each other. [00:05:37] DC: I think you made a very good point. I think this is sort of like there’s an analog to this in containers, oddly enough. When people say, “I want a container within and then the orchestration systems,” they think that that's just a thing that you can ask for. That you get a container and inside of that is going to be your file system and it’s going to do all those things. In a way, I feel like that same confusion is definitely related to distributed systems. When people are interacting with distributed systems today or if I were to ask like 50 people what a distributed system is, I would probably get 50 different answers. I think that you got a pretty concise definition there in that it is a set of systems that intercommunicate to perform some function. It’s like found at its base line. I feel like that's a pretty reasonable definition of what distributed systems are, and then we can figure out from there like what functions are they trying to achieve and what are some of the problems that we’re trying to solve with them. [00:06:29] CC: Yeah. That’s what it’s all about in my head is solving the problems because at the beginning, I was thinking, “Well, it must be just about communicating and making things work.” It’s the opposite of that. It’s like that’s a given. When a job says you need to understand about distributed systems, what they are really saying is you need to know how to deal with failures, not just to make it work. Make it work is sort of the easy part, but the whole world of where the failures can happen, how do you handle it, and that, to me is what needing to know distributed system comes in handy. In a couple different things, like at the top layer or 5% is knowing how to make things work, and 95% is knowing how to handle things when they don’t work, because it’s inevitable. [00:07:19] DC: Yeah, I agree. What do you think, Michael? How would you describe the context around distributed systems? What was the first one that you worked with? [00:07:27] MG: Exactly. It’s kind of similar to your background, Duffie, which is no formal degree or education on computer science right after high school and jumping into kind of my first job, working with computers, computer administration. I must say that from the age of I think seven or so, I was interested in computers and all that stuff but more from a hardware perspective, less from a software development perspective. So my take always was on disassembling the pieces and building my own computers than writing programs. In the early days, that just was me. So I completely almost missed the whole education and principles and fundamentals of how you would write a program for a single computer and then obviously also for how to write programs that run across a network of computers. So over time, as I progress on my career, especially kind of in the first job, which was like seven years of different Linux systems, Linux administrations, I kind of – Like you, Duffie, I dealt with distributed systems without necessarily knowing that I'm dealing with distributed systems. I knew that it was mostly storage systems, Linux file servers, but distributed file servers. Samba, if some of you recall that project. So I knew that things could fail. I know it could fail, for example, or I know it could not be writable, and so a client must be stuck but not necessarily I think directly related to fundamentals of how distributed systems work or don’t work. Over time, and this is really why I appreciate the Kubernetes project in community, I got more questions, especially when this whole container movement came up. I got so many questions around how does that thing work. How does scheduling work? Because scheduling kind of was close to my interest in the hardware design and low-level details. But I was looking at Kubernetes like, “Okay. There is the scheduler.” In the beginning, the documentation was pretty scarce around the implementation and all the control as for what’s going on. So I had to – I listen to a lot of podcasts and Brian Grant’s great talks and different shows that he gave from the Kubernetes space and other people there as well. In the end, I had more questions than answers. So I had to dig deeper. Eventually, that led me to a path of wanting to understand more formal theory behind distributed systems by reading the papers, reading books, taking some online classes just to get a basic understanding of those issues. So I got interested in results scheduling in distributed systems and consensus. So those were two areas that kind of caught my eyes like, “What is it? How do machines agree in a distributed system if so many things can go wrong?” Maybe we can explore this later on. So I’m going to park this for a bit. But back to your question, which was kind of a long-winded answer or a road to answering your question, Duffie. For me, a distributed system is like this kind of coherent network of computer machines that from the outside to an end-user or to another client looks like one gigantic big machine that is [inaudible 00:10:31] to run as fast. That is performing also efficient. It constitutes a lot of characteristics and properties that we want from our systems that a single machine usually can’t handle. But it looks like it's a big single machine to a client. [00:10:46] DC: I think that – I mean, it is interesting like, I don’t want to get into – I guess this is probably not just a distributed systems talk. But obviously, one of the questions that falls out for me when I hear that answer is then what is the difference between a micro service architecture and distributed systems, because I think it's – I mean, to your point, the way that a lot of people work with the app to learn to develop software, it’s like we’re going to develop a monolithic application just by nature. We’re going to solve a software problem using code. Then later on, when we decide to actually scale this thing or understand how to better operate it under a significant load, then we started thinking about, “Okay. Well, how do we have to architect this differently in such a way that it can support that load?” That’s where I feel like the beams cut across, right? We’re suddenly in a world where you’re not only just talking about microservices. You’re also talking about distributed systems because you’re going to start thinking about how to understand transactionality throughout that system, how to understand all of those consensus things that you're referring to. How do they affect it when I add mister network in there? That’s cool. [00:11:55] MG: Just one comment on this, Duffie, which took me a very long time to realize, which is coming – From my definition of what a distributed system is like this group of machines that they perform work in a certain sense or maybe even more abstracted like at a bunch of computers network together. What I kind of missed most of the time, and this goes back to the DNS example that you gave in the beginning, was the client or the clients are also part of this distributed system, because they might have caches, especially in DNS. So you always deal with this kind of state that is distributed everywhere. Maybe you don't even know where it kind of is distributed, and the client kind of works with a local stale data. So that is also part of a distributed system, and something I want to give credit to the Kafka community and some of the engineers on Kafka, because there was a great talk lately that I heard. It’s like, “Right. The client is also part of your distributed system, even though usually we think it's just the server. That those many server machines, all those microservices.” At least I missed that a long time. [00:12:58] DC: You should put a link to that talk in our [inaudible 00:13:00]. That would be awesome. It sounds great. So what do you think, Carlisia? [00:13:08] CC: Well, one thing that I wanted to mention is that Michael was saying how he’s been self-teaching distributed systems, and I think if we want to be competent in the area, we have to do that. I’m saying this to myself even. It’s very refreshing when you read a book or you read a paper and you really understand the fundamentals of an aspect of distributed system. A lot of things fall into place in your hands. I’m saying this because even prioritizing reading about and learning about the fundamentals is really hard for me, because you have your life. You have things to do. You have the minutiae in things to get done. But so many times, I struggle. In the rare occasions where I go, “Okay. Let me just learn this stuff trial and error,” it makes such a difference. Then once you learn, it stays with you forever. So it’s really good. It’s so refreshing to read a paper and understand things at a different level, and that is what this episode is. I don’t know if this is the time to jump in into, “So there are our recommendations.” I don't know how deep, Michael, you’re going to go. You have a ton of things listed. Everything we mention on the show is going to be on our website, on the show notes. So nobody needs to be necessarily taking notes. Anything thing I wanted to say is it would be lovely if people would get back to us once you listened to this. Let us know if you want to add anything to this list. It would be awesome. We can even add it to this list later and give a shout out to you. So it’d be great. [00:14:53] MG: Right. I don’t want to cover this whole list. I just wanted to be as complete as possible about a stuff that I kind of read or watched. So I just put it in and I just picked some highlights there if you want. [00:15:05] CC: Yeah. Go for it. [00:15:06] MG: Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Honestly, even though not the first in the list, but the first thing that I read, so maybe from kind of my history of how I approach things, was searching for how do computers work and what are some of the issues and how do computers and machines agree. Obviously, the classic paper that I read was the Lamport paper on “Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System”. I want to be honest. First time I read it, I didn’t really get the full essence of the paper, because it doesn't prove in there. The mathematic proof for me didn't click immediately, and there were so many things and concepts and physics and time that were thrown at me where I was looking for answers and I had more questions than answers. But this is not to Leslie. This is more like by the time I just wasn't prepared for how deep the rabbit hole goes. So I thought, if someone asked me for – I only have time to read one book out of this huge list that I have there and all the other resources. Which one would it be? Which one would I recommend? I would recommend Designing Data-Intensive Apps by Martin Kleppmann, which I’ve been following his blog posts and some partial releases that he's done before fully releasing that book, which took him more than four years to release that book. It’s kind of almost the Bible, state-of-the-art Bible when it comes to all concepts in distributed systems. Obviously, consensus, network failures, and all that stuff but then also leading into modern data streaming, data platform architectures inspired by, for example, LinkedIn and other communities. So that would be the book that I would recommend to someone if – Who does have time to read one book. [00:16:52] DC: That’s a neat approach. I like the idea of like if you had one thing, if you have one way to help somebody ramp on distributed systems and stuff, what would it be? For me, it’s actually I don't think I would recommend a book, oddly enough. I feel like I would actually – I’d probably drive them toward the kind of project, like the kind [inaudible 00:17:09] project and say, “This is a distributed system all but itself.” Start tearing it apart to pieces and seeing how they work and breaking them and then exploring and kind of just playing with the parts. You can do a lot of really interesting things. This is actually another book in your list that was written by Brendan Burns about Designing Distributed Systems I think it’s called. That book, I think he actually uses Kubernetes as a model for how to go about achieving these things, which I think is incredibly valuable, because it really gets into some of the more stable distributed systems patterns that are around. I feel like that's a great entry point. So if I had one thing, if I had to pick one way to help somebody or to push somebody in the direction of trying to learn distributed systems, I would say identify those distributed systems that maybe you’re already aware of and really explore how they work and what the problems with them are and how they went about solving those problems. Really dig into the idea of it. It’s something you could put your hands on and play with. I mean, Kubernetes is a great example of this, and this is actually why I referred to it. [00:18:19] CC: The way that works for me when I’m learning something like that is to really think about where the boundaries are, where the limitations are, where the tradeoffs are. If you can take a smaller system, maybe something like The Kind Project and identify what those things are. If you can’t, then ask around. Ask someone. Google it. I don’t know. Maybe it will be a good episode topic for us to do that. This part is doing this to map things out. So maybe we can understand better and help people understand things better. So mainly like yeah. They try to do the distributed system thesis are. But for people who don’t even know what they could be, it’s harder to identify it. I don’t know what a good strategy for that would be, because you can read about distributed systems and then you can go and look at a project. How do you map the concept to learning to what you’re seeing in the code base? For me, that’s the hardest thing. [00:19:26] MG: Exactly. Something that kind of I had related experience was like when I went into software development, without having formal education on algorithms and data structures, sometimes in your head, you have the problem statement and you're like, “Okay. I would do it like that.” But you don't know the word that describes, for example, a heap structure or queue because you’ve never – Someone told you that is heap, that is a queue, and/or that is a stick. So, for me, reading the book was a bit easier. Even though I have done distributed systems, if you will, administration for many years, many years ago, I didn't realize that it was a distributed system because I never had this definition or I never had those failure scenarios in mind and it never had a word for consensus. So how would I search for something like how do machines agree? I mean, if you put that on Google, then likely they will come – Have a lot of stuff. But if you put it in consensus algorithm, likely you get a good hit on what the answer should be. [00:20:29] CC: It is really problematic when we don't know the names of things because – What you said is so right, because we are probably doing a lot of distributed systems without even knowing that that’s what it is. Then we go in the job interview, and people are, “Oh! Have you done a distributed system?” No. You have but you just don’t know how to name things. But that’s one – [00:20:51] DC: Yeah, exactly. [00:20:52] CC: Yeah. Right? That’s one issue. Another issue, which is a bigger issue though is at least that’s how it is for me. I don’t want to speak for anybody else but for me definitely. If I can’t name things and I face a problem and I solve it, every time I face that problem it’s a one-off thing because I can’t map to a higher concept. So every time I face that problem, it’s like, “Oh!” It’s not like, “Oh, yeah!” If this is this kind of problem, I have a pattern. I’m going to use that to this problem. So that’s what I’m saying. Once you learn the concept, you need to be able to name it. Then you can map that concept to problems you have. All of a sudden, if you have like three things [inaudible 00:21:35] use to solve this problem, because as you work with computers, coding, it’s like you see the same thing over and over again. But when you don’t understand the fundamentals, things are just like – It’s a bunch of different one-offs. It’s like when you have an argument with your spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend. Sometimes, it’s like you’re arguing 10 times in a month and you thought, “Oh! I had 10 arguments.” But if you’d stop and think about it, no. We had one argument 10 times. It’s very different than having 10 problems versus having 1 problem 10 times, if that makes sense. [00:22:12] MG: It does. [00:22:11] DC: I think it does, right? [00:22:12] MG: I just want to agree. [00:22:16] DC: I think it does make sense. I think it’s interesting. You’ve highlighted kind of an interesting pattern around the way that people learn, which I think is really interesting. That is like some people are able to read about patterns or software patterns or algorithms or architectures and have that suddenly be an index of their heads. They can actually then later on correlate what they've read with the experience that they’re having around the things they're working on. For some, it needs to be hands-on. They need to actually be able to explore that idea and understand and manipulate it and be able to describe how it works or functions in person, in reality. They need to have that hands-on like, “I need to touch it to understand it,” kind of experience. Those people also, as they go through those experiences, start building this index of patterns or algorithms in their head. They have this thing that they can correlate to, right, like, “Oh! This is a time problem,” or, “This is a consensus problem,” or what have you, right? [00:23:19] CC: Exactly. [00:23:19] DC: You may not know the word for that saying but you're still going to develop a pattern in your mind like the ability to correlate this particular problem with some pattern that you’ve seen before. What's interesting is I feel like people have taken different approaches to building that index, right? For me, it’s been troubleshooting. Somebody gives me a hard problem, and I dig into it and I figure out what the problem is, regardless of whether it's to do with distributed systems or cooking. It could be anything, but I always want to get right in there and figure out what that problem and start building a map in my mind of all of the players that are involved. For others, I feel like with an educational background, if you have an education background, I think that sometimes you end up coming to this with a set of patterns already instilled that you understand and you're just trying to apply those patterns to the experience you’re having instead. It’s just very – It’s like horse before the cart or cart before the horse. It’s very interesting when you think about it. [00:24:21] CC: Yes. [00:24:22] MG: The recommendation that I just want to give to people that are like me who like reading is that I went overboard a bit in the beginnings because I was so fascinated by all the stuff, and it went down the rabbit hole deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. Reading and reading and reading. At some point, even coming to weird YouTube channels that talk about like, “Is time real and where does time emerge from?” It became philosophical even like the past where I went to. Now, the thing is, and this is why I like Duffie’s approach with like breaking things and then undergo like trying to break things and understanding how they work and how they can fail is that immediately you practice. You’re hands-on. So that would be my advice to people who are more like me who are fascinated by reading and all the theory that your brain and your mind is not really capable of kind of absorbing all the stuff and then remembering without practicing. Practicing can be breaking things or installing things or administrating things or even writing software. But for me, that was also a late realization that I should have maybe started doing things earlier than the time I spent reading. [00:25:32] CC: By doing, you mean, hands-on? [00:25:35] MG: Yeah. [00:25:35] CC: Anything specific that you would have started with? [00:25:38] MG: Yes. On Kubernetes – So going back those 15 years to my early days of Linux and Samba, which is a project. By the time, I think it was written in C or C++. But the problem was I wasn’t able to read the code. So the only thing that I had by then was some mailing lists and asking questions and not even knowing which questions to ask because of lack of words of understanding. Now, fast-forward into Kubernetes’ time, which got me deeper in distributed systems, I still couldn't read the code because I didn't know [inaudible 00:26:10]. But I forced myself to read the code, which helped a little bit for myself to understand what was going on because the documentation by then was lacking. These days, it’s easier, because you can just install [inaudible 00:26:20] way easier today. The hands-on piece, I mean. [00:26:23] CC: You said something interesting, Michael, and I have given this advice before because I use this practice all the time. It's so important to have a vocabulary. Like you just said, I didn't know what to ask because I didn’t know the words. I practice this all the time. To people who are in this position of distributed systems or whatever it is or something more specific that you are trying to learn, try to expose yourself to the words, because our brains are amazing. Once you get exposure, it’s like your brain works in the background. All of a sudden, you go, “Oh, yeah! I know this word.” So podcasts are great for me. If I don't know something, I will look for a podcast on the subject and I start listening to it. As the words get repeated, just contextually. I don’t have to go and get a degree or anything. Just by listening to the words being spoken in context, absorb the meaning of it. So podcasting is great or YouTube or anything that you can listen. Just in reading too, of course. The best thing is talking to people. But, again, it’s really – Sometimes, it’s not trivial to put yourself in positions where people are discussing these things. [00:27:38] DC: There are actually a number of Meetups here in the Bay Area, and there’s a number of Meetups – That whole Meetup thing is sort of nationwide across the entire US and around the world it seems like now lately. Those Meetups I feel like there are a number of Meetups in different subject areas. There’s one here in the Bay Area called Papers We Love, where they actually do explore interesting technical papers, which are obviously a great place to learn the words for things, right? This is actually where those words are being defined, right? When you get into the consensus stuff, they really get into – One even is Raft. There are many papers on Raft and many papers on multiple things that get into consensus. So definitely, whether you explore a meetup on a distributed system or in a particular application or in a particular theme like Kubernetes, those things are great places just to kind of get more exposure to what people are thinking about in these problems. [00:28:31] CC: That is such a great tip. [00:28:34] MG: Yeah. The podcast is twice as good as well, because for people, non-natives – English speaker, I mean. Oh, people. Not speakers. People. The thing is that the word you’re looking for might be totally different than the English word. For example, consensus in Germany has this totally different meaning. So if I would look that up in German, likely I would find nothing or not really related at all. So you have to go through translation and then finding the stuff. So what you said, Duffie, with PWL, Papers We Love, or podcasts, those words, often they are in English, those podcasts and they are natural consensus or charting or partitioning. Those are the words that you can at least look up like what does it mean. That’s what I did as well thus far. [00:29:16] CC: Yes. I also wanted to do a plus one for Papers We Love. It’s – They are everywhere and they also have an online. They have an online version of the Papers We Love Meetup, and a lot of the local ones film their meetups. So you can go through the history and see if they talked about any paper that you are interested in. Probably, I’m sure multiple locations talk about the same paper, so you can get different takes too. It’s really, really cool. Sometimes, it’s completely obscure like, “I didn’t get a word of what they were saying. Not one. What am I doing here?” But sometimes, they talk about things. You at least know what the thing is and you get like 10% of it. But some paper you don’t. People who deal with papers day in and day out, it’s very much – I don’t know. [00:30:07] DC: It’s super easy when going through a paper like that to have the imposter syndrome wash over you, right, because you’re like – [00:30:13] CC: Yes. Thank you. That’s what I wanted to say. [00:30:15] DC: I feel like I’ve been in this for 20 years. I probably know a few things, right. But in talking about reading this consensus paper going, “Can I buy a vowel? What is happening?” [00:30:24] CC: Yeah. Can I buy a vowel? That’s awesome, Duffie. [00:30:28] DC: But the other piece I want to call out to your point, which I think is important is that some people don't want to go out and be there in person. They don’t feel comfortable or safe exploring those things in person. So there are tons of resources like you have just pointed out like the online version of Papers We Love. You can also sign into Slack and just interact with people via text messaging, right? There’s a lot of really great resources out there for people of all types, including the amount of time that you have. [00:30:53] CC: For Papers We Love, it’s like going to language class. If you go and take a class in Italian, your first day, even though that is going to be super basic, you’re going to be like, “What?” You’ll go back in your third week. You start, “Oh! I’m getting this.” Then a month, three months, “Oh! I’m starting to be competent.” So you go once. You’re going to feel lost and experience imposter syndrome. But you keep going, because that is a format. First, you start absorbing what the format is, and that helps you understand the content. So once your mind absorbs the format, you’re like, “Okay. Now, I have – I know how to navigate this. I know what’s coming next.” So you don’t have to focus on that. You start focusing in the content. Then little but little, you become more proficient in understanding. Very soon, you’re going to be willing to write a paper. I’m not there yet. [00:31:51] DC: That’s awesome. [00:31:52] CC: At least that’s how I think it goes. I don’t know. [00:31:54] MG: I agree. [00:31:55] DC: It’s also changed over time. It’s fascinating. If you read papers from like 20 years ago and you read papers that are written more recently, it's interesting. The papers have changed their language when considering competition. When you're introducing a new idea with a paper, frequently that you are introducing it into a market full of competition. You're being very careful about the language, almost in a way to complicate the idea rather than to make it clear, which is challenging. There are definitely some papers that I’ve read where I was like, “Why are you using so many words to describe this simple idea?” It makes no sense, but yeah. [00:32:37] CC: I don’t want to make this episode all about Papers We Love. It was so good that you mentioned that, Duffie. It’s really good to be in a room where we’ll be watching something online where you see people asking questions and people go, “Oh! Why is this thing like this? Why is X like this,” or, “Why is Y doing like this?” Then you go, “Oh! I didn’t even think that X was important. I didn’t even know that Y was important.” So you stop picking up what the important things are, and that’s what makes it click is now you’ve – Hooking into the important concepts because people who know more than you are pointing out and asking questions. So you start paying attention to learning what the main things it should be paying attention to, which is different from reading the paper by yourself. It’s just a ton of content that you need to sort through. [00:33:34] DC: Yeah. I frequently self-describe it as a perspective junkie, because I feel like for any of us really to learn more about a subject that we feel we understand, we need the perspective of others to really engage, to expand our understanding of that thing. I feel like and I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I’ve done it a million times. It’s a solid thing. But then I watch my kid do it and I’m like, “I hadn’t thought of that problem.” [inaudible 00:33:59], right? This is a great example of that. Those communities like Papers We Love are great opportunity to understand the perspective of others around these hard ideas. When we’re trying to understand complex things like distributed systems, this is where it’s at. This is actually how we go about achieving this. There is a lot that you can do on your own but there is always going to be more that you can do together, right? You can always do more. You can always understand this idea faster. You can understand the complexity of a system and how to break it down into these things by exploiting it with other people. That's I feel like – [00:34:40] CC: That is so well said, so well said, and it’s the reason for this show to exist, right? We come on a show and we give our perspectives, and people get to learn from people with different backgrounds, what their takes are on distributed systems, cloud native. So this was such a major plug for the show. Keep coming back. You’re going to learn a ton. Also, it was funny that you – It was the second time you mentioned cooking, made a cooking reference, Duffie, which brings me to something I want to make sure I say on this episode. I added a few things for reference, three books. But the one that I definitely would recommend starting with is The Systems Bible by John Gall. This book is so cool, because it helps you see everything through systems. Everything is a system. A conversation can be a system. An interaction between two people can be a system. I’m not saying this book says that. It’s just like my translation and that you can look – Cooking is a system. There is a process. There is a sequence. It’s really, really cool and it really helps to have things framed in this way and then go out and read the other books on systems. I think it helps a lot. This is definitely what I am starting with and what I would recommend people start with, The Systems Bible. Did you two know this book? [00:36:15] MG: I did not. I don’t. [00:36:17] DC: I’m not aware of it either but I really appreciate the idea. I do think that that's true. If you develop a skill for understanding systems as they are, you’ll basically develop – Frequently, what you’re developing is the ability to recognize patterns, right? [00:36:32] CC: Exactly. [00:36:32] DC: You could recognize those patterns on anything. [00:36:37] MG: Yeah. That's a good segue for just something that came to my mind. Recently, I gave a talk on event-driven architectures. For someone who's not a software developer or architect, it can be really hard to grab all those concepts on asynchrony and eventual consistency and idempotency. There are so many words of like, “What is this all – It sounds weird, way too complex.” But I was reading a book some years ago by Gregor Hohpe. He’s the guy behind Enterprise Integration Patterns. That’s also a book that I have on my list here. He said, “Your barista doesn't use two-phase commit.” So he was basically making this analogy of he was in a coffee shop and he was just looking at the process of how the barista makes the coffee. You pay for it and all the things that can go wrong while your coffee is brewed and served to you. So he was making this relation between the real world and the life and human society to computer systems. There it clicked to me where I was like, “So many problems we solve every day, for example, agreeing on a time where we should meet for dinner or cooking, is a consensus problem, and we solve it.” We even solve it in the case of failure. I might not be able to call Duffie, because he is not available right now. So somehow, we figure out. I always thought that those problems just exist in computer science and distributed systems. But I realized actually that's just a subset of the real world as is. Looking at those problems through the lens of your daily life and you get up and all the stuff, there are so many things that are related to computer systems. [00:38:13] CC: Michael, I missed it. Was it an article you read? [00:38:16] MG: Yes. I need to put that in there as well. Yeah. It’s a plug. [00:38:19] CC: Please put that in there. Absolutely. So far from being any kind of expert in distributed systems, but I have noticed. I have caught myself using systems thinking for even complicated conversations. Even in my personal life, I started approaching things in the systems oriented and just the – just a high-level example. When I am working with systems, I can approach from the beginning, the end. It’s like a puzzle, putting the puzzle together, right? Sometimes, it starts from the middle. Sometimes, it starts from the edges. When I‘m having conversations that I need to be very strategic like I have one shot. Let’s say maybe I’m in a school meeting and I have to reach a consensus or have a solution or have a plan of action. I have to ask the right questions. My private self would do things linearly. Historically like, “Let’s go from the beginning and work out through the end.” Now, I don’t do that anymore. Not necessarily. Sometimes, I like, “Let me maybe ask the last question I would ask and see where it leads and just approach things from a different way.” I don’t know if this is making sense. [00:39:31] MG: It does. It does. [00:39:32] CC: But my thinking has changed. The way I see the possibilities is not a linear thing anymore. I see how you can truly switch things. I use this in programming a lot and also writing. Sometimes, when you’re a beginner writer, you start at the top and you go down to the conclusion. Sometimes, I start I the middle and go up, right? So you can start anywhere. It’s beautiful or it just gives you so many more options. Or maybe I’m just crazy. Don’t listen to me. [00:40:03] DC: I don’t think you’re crazy. I was going to say, one of the funny things about Michael’s point and your point both, it’s like in a way that they have kind of referred to Conway's law, the idea that people will build systems in the way that they communicate. So this is actually – It totally brings it back to that same point of thing, right? We by nature will build systems that we can understand, because that is the constraint in which we have to work, right? So it’s very interesting. [00:40:29] CC: Yeah. But it’s an interesting thing, because we are [inaudible 00:40:32] by the way we are forced to work. For example, I work with constraints and what I'm saying is that that has been influencing my way of thinking. So, yes, I built systems in the way I think but also because of the constraints that I’m dealing with that I have to be – the tradeoffs I need to make, that also turns around and influences the way I think, the way I see the world and the rest of the systems and all the rest of the world. Of course, as I change my thinking, possibly you can theorize that you go back and apply that. Apply things that you learn outside of your work back to your work. It’s a beautiful back-and-forth I think. [00:41:17] MG: I had the same experience with some – When I had to design kind of my first API and think of, “Okay. What would the consumer contract be and what would a consumer expect me to deliver in response and so on?” I was forcing myself and being explicit in communicating and not throwing everything at the client back to confusing but being very explicit and precise. Also on communication every day when you talk to people, being explicit and precise really helps to avoid a lot of problems and trouble. Be it partnership or amongst friends or at work. This is what I took from computer science actually back into my real world in order to taking all those perceptions, perceiving things from a different perspective, and being more precise and explicit in how I respond or communicated. [00:42:07] CC: My take on what you just said, Michael, is we design systems thinking how is this going to fail. We know this is going to fail. We’re going to design for that. We’re going to implement for that. In real life, for example, if I need to get an agreement from someone, I try to understand the person's thinking and just go, “I just had this huge thing this week. This is in my mind.” I’m not constantly thinking about this, I’m not crazy like that. Just a little bit crazy. It’s like, “How does this person think? What do they need to know? How far can I push?” Right? We need to make a decision quickly, so the approach is everything, and sometimes you only get one shot, so yeah. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong. That's how I heard or I interpreted what you just said. [00:42:52] MG: Yeah, absolutely. Spot on. Spot on. So I’m not crazy as well. [00:42:55] CC: Basically, I think we ended up turning this episode into a little bit of like, “Here are great references,” and also a huge endorsement for really going deep into distributed systems, because it’s going to be good for your jobs. It’s going to be good for your life. It’s going to be good for your health. We are crazy. [00:43:17] DC: I’m definitely crazy. You guys might be. I’m not. All right. So we started this episode with the idea of coming to learning distributed systems perhaps without a degree or without a formal education in it. We talked about a ride of different ideas on that subject. Like different approaches that each of us took, how each of us see the problem. Is there any important point that either of you want to throw back into the mix here or bring up in relation to that? [00:43:48] MG: Well, what I take from this episode, being my first episode and getting to know your background, Duffie and Carlisia, is that whoever is going to listen to this episode, whatever background you have, even though you might not be in computer systems or industry at all, I think we three all had approved that whatever background you have, if you’re just curious a little bit and maybe a little bit crazy, you can totally get down the rabbit hole in distributed systems and get totally excited about it. There’s no need for having formal education and the degree to enter this world. It might help but it’s kind of not a high bar that I was perceiving it to be 10 years ago, for example. [00:44:28] CC: Yeah. That’s a good point. My takeaway is it always puzzled me how some people are so good and experienced and such experts in distributed systems. I always look at myself. It’s like, “How am I lacking?” It’s like, “What memo did I miss? What class did I miss? What project did I not work on to get the experience?” What I’m seeing is you just need to put yourself in that place. You need to do the work. But the good news is achieving competency in distributed systems is doable. [00:45:02] DC: My takeaway is as we discussed before, I think that there is no one thing that comprises a distributed system. It is a number of things, right, and basically a number of behaviors or patterns that we see that comprise what a distributed system is. So when I hear people say, “I’m not an expert in distributed systems,” I think, “Well, perhaps you are and maybe you don’t know it already.” Maybe there's some particular set of patterns with which you are incredibly familiar. Like you understand DNS better than the other 20 people in the room. That exposes you to a set of patterns that certainly give you the capability of saying that you are an expert in that particular set of patterns. So I think that to both of your points, it’s like you can enter this stage where you want to learn about distributed systems from pretty much any direction. You can learn it from a CIS background. You can come it with no computer experience whatsoever, and it will obviously take a bit more work. But this is really just about developing and understanding around how these things communicate and the patterns with which they accomplish that communication. I think that’s the important part. [00:46:19] CC: All right, everybody. Thank you, Michael Gasch, for being with us now. I hope to – [00:46:25] MG: Thank you. [00:46:25] CC: To see you in more episodes [inaudible 00:46:27]. Thank you, Duffie. [00:46:30] DC: My pleasure. [00:46:31] CC: Again, I’m Carlisia Campos. With us was Duffie Cooley and Michael Gesh. This was episode 12, and I hope to see you next time. Bye. [00:46:41] DC: Bye. [00:46:41] MG: Goodbye. [END OF EPISODE] [00:46:43] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to the first episode of The Podlets Podcast! On the show today we’re kicking it off with some introductions to who we all are, how we got involved in VMware and a bit about our career histories up to this point. We share our vision for this podcast and explain the unique angle from which we will approach our conversations, a way that will hopefully illuminate some of the concepts we discuss in a much greater way. We also dive into our various experiences with open source, share what some of our favorite projects have been and then we define what the term “cloud native” means to each of us individually. The contribution that the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) is making in the industry is amazing, and we talk about how they advocate the programs they adopt and just generally impact the community. We are so excited to be on this podcast and to get feedback from you, so do follow us on Twitter and be sure to tune in for the next episode! Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Hosts: Carlisia Campos Kris Nóva Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Nicholas Lane Key Points from This Episode: An introduction to us, our career histories and how we got into the cloud native realm. Contributing to open source and everyone’s favorite project they have worked on. What the purpose of this podcast is and the unique angle we will approach topics from. The importance of understanding the “why” behind tools and concepts. How we are going to be interacting with our audience and create a feedback loop. Unpacking the term “cloud native” and what it means to each of us. Differentiating between the cloud native apps and cloud native infrastructure. The ability to interact with APIs as the heart of cloud natives. More about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) and their role in the industry. Some of the great things that happen when a project is donated to the CNCF. The code of conduct that you need to adopt to be part of the CNCF. And much more! Quotes: “If you tell me the how before I understand what that even is, I'm going to forget.” — @carlisia [0:12:54] “I firmly believe that you can't – that you don't understand a thing if you can't teach it.” — @mauilion [0:13:51] “When you're designing software and you start your main function to be built around the cloud, or to be built around what the cloud enables us to do in the services a cloud to offer you, that is when you start to look at cloud native engineering.” — @krisnova [0:16:57] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets VMware — https://www.vmware.com/Nicholas Lane on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-ross-laneRed Hat — https://www.redhat.com/CoreOS — https://coreos.com/Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilionApache Mesos — http://mesos.apache.org/Kris Nova on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/kris-novaSolidFire — https://www.solidfire.com/NetApp — https://www.netapp.com/us/index.aspxMicrosoft Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisiaFastly — https://www.fastly.com/FreeBSD — https://www.freebsd.org/OpenStack — https://www.openstack.org/Open vSwitch — https://www.openvswitch.org/Istio — https://istio.io/The Kublets on GitHub — https://github.com/heptio/thekubeletsCloud Native Infrastructure on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-Infrastructure-Applications-Environment/dp/1491984309Cloud Native Computing Foundation — https://www.cncf.io/Terraform — https://www.terraform.io/KubeCon — https://www.cncf.io/community/kubecon-cloudnativecon-events/The Linux Foundation — https://www.linuxfoundation.org/Sysdig — https://sysdig.com/opensource/falco/OpenEBS — https://openebs.io/Aaron Crickenberger — https://twitter.com/spiffxp Transcript: [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.1] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concept, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.3] KN: Welcome to the podcast. [0:00:42.5] NL: Hi. I’m Nicholas Lane. I’m a cloud native Architect. [0:00:45.0] CC: Who do you work for, Nicholas? [0:00:47.3] NL: I've worked for VMware, formerly of Heptio. [0:00:50.5] KN: I think we’re all VMware, formerly Heptio, aren’t we? [0:00:52.5] NL: Yes. [0:00:54.0] CC: That is correct. It just happened that way. Now Nick, why don’t you tell us how you got into this space? [0:01:02.4] NL: Okay. I originally got into the cloud native realm working for Red Hat as a consultant. At the time, I was doing OpenShift consultancy. Then my boss, Paul, Paul London, left Red Hat and I decided to follow him to CoreOS, where I met Duffie and Josh. We were on the field engineering team there and the sales engineering team. Then from there, I found myself at Heptio and now with VMware. Duffie, how about you? [0:01:30.3] DC: My name is Duffie Cooley. I'm also a cloud native architect at VMware, also recently Heptio and CoreOS. I've been working in technologies like cloud native for quite a few years now. I started my journey moving from virtual machines into containers with Mesos. I spent some time working on Mesos and actually worked with a team of really smart individuals to try and develop an API in front of that crazy Mesos thing. Then we realized, “Well, why are we doing this? There is one that's called Kubernetes. We should jump on that.” That's the direction in my time with containerization and cloud native stuff has taken. How about you Josh? [0:02:07.2] JR: Hey, I’m Josh. I similar to Duffie and Nicholas came from CoreOS and then to Heptio and then eventually VMware. Actually got my start in the middleware business oddly enough, where we worked on the Egregious Spaghetti Box, or the ESB as it’s formally known. I got to see over time how folks were doing a lot of these, I guess, more legacy monolithic applications and that sparked my interest into learning a bit about some of the cloud native things that were going on. At the time, CoreOS was at the forefront of that. It was a natural progression based on the interests and had a really good time working at Heptio with a lot of the folks that are on this call right now. Kris, you want to give us an intro? [0:02:48.4] KN: Sure. Hi, everyone. Kris Nova. I've been SRE DevOps infrastructure for about a decade now. I used to live in Boulder, Colorado. I came out of a couple startups there. I worked at SolidFire, we went to NetApp. I used to work on the Linux kernel there some. Then I was at Deis for a while when I first started contributing to Kubernetes. We got bought by Microsoft, left Microsoft, the Azure team. I was working on the original managed Kubernetes there. Left that team, joined up with Heptio, met all of these fabulous folks. I think, I wrote a book and I've been doing a lot of public speaking and some other junk along the way. Yeah. Hi. What about you, Carlisia? [0:03:28.2] CC: All right. I think it's really interesting that all the guys are lined up on one call and all the girls on another call. [0:03:34.1] NL: We should have probably broken it up more. [0:03:36.4] CC: I am a developer and have always been a developer. Before joining Heptio, I was working for Fastly, which is a CDN company. They’re doing – helping them build the latest generation of their TLS management system. At some point during my stay there, Kevin Stuart was posting on Twitter, joined Heptio. At this point, Heptio was about, I don't know, between six months in a year-old. I saw those tweets go by I’m like, “Yeah, that sounds interesting, but I'm happy where I am.” I have a very good friend, Kennedy actually. He saw those tweets and here he kept saying to me, “You should apply. You should apply, because they are great people. They did great things. Kubernetes is so hot.” I’m like, “I'm happy where I am.” Eventually, I contacted Kevin and he also said, “Yeah, that it would be a perfect match.” two months later decided to apply. The people are amazing. I did think that Kubernetes was really hard, but my decision-making went towards two things. The people are amazing and some people who were working there I already knew from previous opportunities. Some of the people that I knew – I mean, I love everyone. The only thing was that it was an opportunity for me to work with open source. I definitely could not pass that up. I could not be happier to have made that decision now with VMware acquiring Heptio, like everybody here I’m at VMware. Still happy. [0:05:19.7] KN: Has everybody here contributed to open source before? [0:05:22.9] NL: Yup, I have. [0:05:24.0] KN: What's everybody's favorite project they've worked on? [0:05:26.4] NL: That's an interesting question. From a business aspect, I really like Dex. Dex is an identity provider, or a middleware for identity provider. It provides an OIDC endpoint for multiple different identity providers. You can absorb them into Kubernetes. Since Kubernetes only has an OIDC – only accepts OIDC job tokens for authentication, that functionality that Dex provides is probably my favorite thing. Although, if I'm going to be truly honest, I think right now the thing that I'm the most excited about working on is my own project, which is starting to join like me, joining into my interest in doing Chaos engineering. What about you guys? What’s your favorite? [0:06:06.3] KN: I understood some of those words. NL: Those are things we'll touch on on different episodes. [0:06:12.0] KN: Yeah. I worked on FreeBSD for a while. That was my first welcome to open source. I mean, that was back in the olden days of IRC clients and writing C. I had a lot of fun, and still I'm really close with a lot of folks in the FreeBSD community, so that always has a special place in my heart, I think, just that was my first experience of like, “Oh, this is how you work on a team and you work collaboratively together and it's okay to fail and be open.” [0:06:39.5] NL: Nice. [0:06:40.2] KN: What about you, Josh? [0:06:41.2] JR: I worked on a project at CoreOS. Well, a project that's still out there called ALB Ingress controller. It was a way to bring the AWS ALBs, which are just layer 7 load balancers and take the Kubernetes API ingress, attach those two together so that the ALB could serve ingress. The reason that it was the most interesting, technology aside, is just it went from something that we started just myself and a colleague, and eventually gained community adoption. We had to go through the process of just being us two worrying about our concerns, to having to bring on a large community that had their own business requirements and needs, and having to say no at times and having to encourage individuals to contribute when they had ideas and issues, because we didn't have the bandwidth to solve all those problems. It was interesting not necessarily from a technical standpoint, but just to see what it actually means when something starts to gain traction. That was really cool. Yeah, how about you Duffie? [0:07:39.7] DC: I've worked on a number of projects, but I find that generally where I fit into the ecosystem is basically helping other people adopt open source technologies. I spent a quite a bit of my time working on OpenStack and I spent some time working on Open vSwitch and recently in Kubernetes. Generally speaking, I haven't found myself to be much of a contributor to of code to those projects per se, but more like my work is just enabling people to adopt those technologies because I understand the breadth of the project more than the detail of some particular aspect. Lately, I've been spending some time working more on the SIG Network and SIG-cluster-lifecycle stuff. Some of the projects that have really caught my interest are things like, Kind which is Kubernetes in Docker and working on KubeADM itself, just making sure that we don't miss anything obvious in the way that KubeADM is being used to manage the infrastructure again. [0:08:34.2] KN: What about you, Carlisia? [0:08:36.0] CC: I realize it's a mission what I'm working on at VMware. That is coincidentally the project – the open source project that is my favorite. I didn't have a lot of experience with open source, just minor contributions here and there before this project. I'm working with Valero. It's a disaster recovery tool for Kubernetes. Like I said, it's open source. We’re coming up to version 1 pretty soon. The other maintainers are amazing, super knowledgeable and very experienced, mature. I have such a joy to work with them. My favorites. [0:09:13.4] NL: That's awesome. [0:09:14.7] DC: Should we get into the concept of cloud native and start talking about what we each think of this thing? Seems like a pretty loaded topic. There are a lot of people who would think of cloud native as just a generic term, we should probably try and nail it down here. [0:09:27.9] KN: I'm excited for this one. [0:09:30.1] CC: Maybe we should talk about what this podcast show is going to be? [0:09:34.9] NL: Sure. Yeah. Totally. [0:09:37.9] CC: Since this is our first episode. [0:09:37.8] NL: Carlisia, why don't you tell us a little bit about the podcast? [0:09:40.4] CC: I will be glad to. The idea that we had was to have a show where we can discuss cloud native concepts. As opposed to talking about particular tools or particular project, we are going to aim to talk about the concepts themselves and approach it from the perspective of a distributed system idea, or issue, or concept, or a cloud native concept. From there, we can talk about what really is this problem, what people or companies have this problem? What usually are the solutions? What are the alternative ways to solve this problem? Then we can talk about tools that are out there that people can use. I don't think there is a show that approaches things from this angle. I'm really excited about bringing this to the community. [0:10:38.9] KN: It's almost like TGIK, but turned inside out, or flipped around where TGIK, we do tools first and we talk about what exactly is this tool and how do you use it, but I think this one, we're spinning that around and we're saying, “No, let's pick a broader idea and then let's explore all the different possibilities with this broader idea.” [0:10:59.2] CC: Yeah, I would say so. [0:11:01.0] JR: From the field standpoint, I think this is something we often times run into with people who are just getting started with larger projects, like Kubernetes perhaps, or anything really, where a lot of times they hear something like the word Istio come out, or some technology. Often times, the why behind it isn't really considered upfront, it's just this tool exists, it's being talked about, clearly we need to start looking at it. Really diving into the concepts and the why behind it, hopefully will bring some light to a lot of these things that we're all talking about day-to-day. [0:11:31.6] CC: Yeah. Really focusing on the what and the why. The how is secondary. That's what my vision of this show is. [0:11:41.7] KN: I like it. [0:11:43.0] NL: That's something that really excites me, because there are a lot of these concepts that I talk about in my day-to-day life, but some of them, I don't actually think that I understand pretty well. It's those words that you've heard a million times, so you know how to use them, but you don't actually know the definition of them. [0:11:57.1] CC: I'm super glad to hear you say that mister, because as a developer in many not a system – not having a sysadmin background. Of course, I did sysadmin things as a developer, but not it wasn't my day-to-day thing ever. When I started working with Kubernetes, a lot of things I didn't quite grasp and that's a super understatement. I noticed that I mean, I can ask questions. No problem. I will dig through and find out and learn. The problem is that in talking to experts, a lot of the time when people, I think, but let me talk about myself. A lot of time when I ask a question, the experts jump right to the how. What is this? “Oh, this is how you do it.” I don't know what this is. Back off a little bit, right? Back up. I don't know what this is. Why is this doing this? I don't know. If you tell me the how before I understand what that even is, I'm going to forget. That's what's going to happen. I mean, it’s great you're trying to make an effort and show me the how to do something. This is personal, the way I learn. I need to understand the how first. This is why I'm so excited about this show. It's going to be awesome. This is what we’re going to talk about. [0:13:19.2] DC: Yeah, I agree. This is definitely one of the things that excites me about this topic as well, is that I find my secret super power is troubleshooting. That means that I can actually understand what the expected relationships between things should do, right? Rather than trying to figure out. Without really digging into the actual problem of stuff and what and the how people were going, or the people who were developing the code were trying to actually solve it, or thought about it. It's hard to get to the point where you fully understand that that distributed system. I think this is a great place to start. The other thing I'll say is that I firmly believe that you can't – that you don't understand a thing if you can't teach it. This podcast for me is about that. Let's bring up all the questions and we should enable our audience to actually ask us questions somehow, and get to a place where we can get as many perspectives on a problem as we can, such that we can really dig into the detail of what the problem is before we ever talk about how to solve it. Good stuff. [0:14:18.4] CC: Yeah, absolutely. [0:14:19.8] KN: Speaking of a feedback loop from our audience and taking the problem first and then solution in second, how do we plan on interacting with our audience? Do we want to maybe start a GitHub repo, or what are we thinking? [0:14:34.2] NL: I think a GitHub repo makes a lot of sense. I also wouldn't mind doing some social media malarkey, maybe having a Twitter account that we run or something like that, where people can ask questions too. [0:14:46.5] CC: Yes. Yes to all of that. Yeah. Having an issue list that in a repo that people can just add comments, praises, thank you, questions, suggestions for concepts to talk about and say like, “Hey, I have no clue what this means. Can you all talk about it?” Yeah, we'll talk about it. Twitter. Yes. Interact with those on Twitter. I believe our Twitter handle is TheKubelets. [0:15:12.1] KN: Oh, we already have one. Nice. [0:15:12.4] NL: Yes. See, I'm learning something new already. [0:15:15.3] CC: We already have. I thought you were all were joking. We have the Kubernetes repo. We have a github repo called – [0:15:22.8] NL: Oh, perfect. [0:15:23.4] CC: heptio/thekubelets. [0:15:27.5] DC: The other thing I like that we do in TGIK is this HackMD thing. Although, I'm trying to figure out how we could really make that work for us in a show that's recorded every week like this one. I think, maybe what we could do is have it so that when people can listen to the recording, they could go to the HackMD document, put questions in or comments around things if they would like to hear more about, or maybe share their perspectives about these topics. Maybe in the following week, we could just go back and review what came in during that period of time, or during the next session. [0:15:57.7] KN: Yeah. Maybe we're merging the HackMD on the next recording. [0:16:01.8] DC: Yeah. [0:16:03.3] KN: Okay. I like it. [0:16:03.6] DC: Josh, you have any thoughts? Friendster, MySpace, anything like that? [0:16:07.2] JR: No. I think we could pass on MySpace for now, but everything else sounds great. [0:16:13.4] DC: Do we want to get into the meat of the episode? [0:16:15.3] KN: Yeah. [0:16:17.2] DC: Our true topic, what does cloud native mean to all of us? Kris, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. You might have written a book about this? [0:16:28.3] KN: I co-authored a book called Cloud Native Infrastructure, which it means a lot of things to a lot of people. It's one of those umbrella terms, like DevOps. It's up to you to interpret it. I think in the past couple of years of working in the cloud native space and working directly at the CNCF as a CNCF ambassador, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, they're the open source nonprofit folks behind this term cloud native. I think the best definition I've been able to come up with is when you're designing software and you start your main function to be built around the cloud, or to be built around what the cloud enables us to do in the services a cloud to offer you, that is when you start to look at cloud native engineering. I think all cloud native infrastructure is, it's designing software that manages and mutates infrastructure in that same way. I think the underlying theme here is we're no longer caddying configurations disk and doing system D restarts. Now we're just sending HTTPS API requests and getting messages back. Hopefully, if the cloud has done what we expect it to do, that broadcast some broader change. As software engineers, we can count on those guarantees to design our software around. I really think that you need to understand that it's starting with the main function first and completely engineering your app around these new ideas and these new paradigms and not necessarily a migration of a non-cloud native app. I mean, you technically could go through and do it. Sure, we've seen a lot of people do it, but I don't think that's technically cloud native. That's cloud alien. Yeah. I don't know. That's just my thought. [0:18:10.0] DC: Are you saying that cloud native approach is a greenfield approach generally? To be a cloud native application, you're going to take that into account in the DNA of your application? [0:18:20.8] KN: Right. That's exactly what I'm saying. [0:18:23.1] CC: It's interesting that never said – mentioned cloud alien, because that plays into the way I would describe the meaning of cloud native. I mean, what it is, I think Nova described it beautifully and it's a lot of – it really shows her know-how. For me, if I have to describe it, I will just parrot things that I have read, including her book. What it means to me, what it means really is I'm going to use a metaphor to explain what it means to me. Given my accent, I’m obviously not an American born, and so I'm a foreigner. Although, I do speak English pretty well, but I'm not native. English is not my native tongue. I speak English really well, but there are certain hiccups that I'm going to have every once in a while. There are things that I'm not going to know what to say, or it's going to take me a bit long to remember. I rarely run into not understanding it, something in English, but it happens sometimes. That's the same with the cloud native application. If it hasn't been built to run on cloud native platforms and systems, you can migrate an application to cognitive environment, but it's not going to fully utilize the environments, like a native app would. That's my take. [0:19:56.3] KN: Cloud immigrant. [0:19:57.9] CC: Cloud immigrant. Is Nick a cloud alien? [0:20:01.1] KN: Yeah. [0:20:02.8] CC: Are they cloud native alien, or cloud native aliens. Yeah. [0:20:07.1] JR: On that point, I'd be curious if you all feel there is a need to discern the notion of cloud native infrastructure, or platforms, then the notion of cloud native apps themselves. Where I'm going with this, it's funny hearing the Greenfield thing and what you said, Carlisia, with the immigration, if you will, notion. Oftentimes, you see these very cloud native platforms, things, the amount of Kubernetes, or even Mesos or whatever it might be. Then you see the applications themselves. Some people are using these platforms that are cloud native to be a forcing function, to make a lot of their legacy stuff adopt more cloud native principles, right? There’s this push and pull. It's like, “Do I make my app more cloud native? Do I make my infrastructure more cloud native? Do I do them both at the same time?” Be curious what your thoughts are on that, or if that resonates with you at all. [0:21:00.4] KN: I've got a response here, if I can jump in. Of course, Nova with opinions. Who would have thought? I think what I'm hearing here, Josh is as we're using these cloud native platforms, we're forcing the hand of our engineers. In a world where we may be used to just send this blind DNS request out so whatever, and we would be ignorant of where that was going, now in the cloud native world, we know there's the specific DNS implementation that we can count on. It has this feature set that we can guarantee our software around. I think it's a little bit of both and I think that there is definitely an art to understanding, yes, this is a good idea to do both applications and infrastructure. I think that's where you get into this what it needs to be a cloud native engineer. Just in the same traditional legacy infrastructure stack, there's going to be good engineering choices you can make and there's going to be bad ones and there's many different schools of thought over do I go minimalist? Do I go all in at once? What does that mean? I think we're seeing a lot of folks try a lot of different patterns here. I think there's pros and cons though. [0:22:03.9] CC: Do you want to talk about this pros and cons? Do you see patterns that are more successful for some kinds of company versus others? [0:22:11.1] KN: I mean, I think going back to the greenfield thing that we were talking about earlier, I think if you are lucky enough to build out a greenfield application, you're able to bake in greenfield infrastructure management instead as well. That's where you get these really interesting hybrid applications, just like Kubernetes, that span the course of infrastructure and application. If we were to go into Kubernetes and say, “I wanted to define a service of type load balancer,” it’s actually going to go and create a load balancer for you and actually mutate that underlying infrastructure. The only way we were able to get that power and get that paradigm is because on day one, we said we're going to do that as software engineers; taking the infrastructure where you were hidden behind the firewall, or hidden behind the load balancer in the past. The software would have no way to reason about it. They’re blind and greenfield really is going to make or break your ability to even you take the infrastructure layers. [0:23:04.3] NL: I think that's a good distinction to make, because something that I've been seeing in the field a lot is that the users will do cloud native practices, but they’ll use a tool to do the cloud native for them, right? They'll use something along the lines of HashiCorp’s Terraform to create the VMs and the load balancers for them. It's something I think that people forget about is that the application themselves can ask for these resources as well. Terraform is just using an API and your code can use an API to the same API, in fact. I think that's an important distinction. It forces the developer to think a little bit like a sysadmin sometimes. I think that's a good melding of the dev and operations into this new word. Regrettably, that word doesn't exist right now. [0:23:51.2] KN: That word can be cloud native. [0:23:53.3] DC: Cloud here to me breaks down into a different set of topics as well. I remember seeing a talk by Brandon Phillips a few years ago. In his talk, he was describing – he had some numbers up on the screen and he was talking about the fact that we were going to quickly become overwhelmed by the desire to continue to develop and put out more applications for our users. His point was that every day, there's another 10,000 new users of the Internet, new consumers that are showing up on the Internet, right? Globally, I think it's something to the tune of about 350,000 of the people in this room, right? People who understand infrastructure, people who understand how to interact with applications, or to build them, those sorts of things. There really aren't a lot of people who are in that space today, right? We're surrounded by them all the time, but they really just globally aren't that many. His point is that if we don't radically change the way that we think about the development as the deployment and the management of all of these applications that we're looking at today, we're going to quickly be overrun, right? There aren't going to be enough people on the planet to solve that problem without thinking about the problem in a fundamentally different way. For me, that's where the cloud native piece comes in. With that, comes a set of primitives, right? You need some way to automate, or to write software that will manage other software. You need the ability to manage the lifecycle of that software in a resilient way that can be managed. There are lots of platforms out there that thought about this problem, right? There are things like Mesos, there are things like Kubernetes. There's a number of different shots on goal here. There are lots of things that I've really tried to think about that problem in a fundamentally different way. I think of those primitives that being able to actually manage the lifecycle of software, being able to think about packaging that software in such a way that it can be truly portable, the idea that you have some API abstraction that brings again, that portability, such that you can make use of resources that may not be hosted on your infrastructure on your own personal infrastructure, but also in the cloud, like how do we actually make that API contract so complete that you can just take that application anywhere? These are all part of that cloud native definition in my opinion. [0:26:08.2] KN: This is so fascinating, because the human race totally already learned this lesson with the Linux kernel in the 90s, right? We had all these hardware manufacturers coming out and building all these different hardware components with different interfaces. Somebody said, “Hey, you know what? There's a lot of noise going on here. We should standardize these and build a contract.” That contract then implemented control loops, just like in Kubernetes and then Mesos. Poof, we have the Linux kernel now. We're just distributed Linux kernel version 2.0. The human race is here repeating itself all over again. [0:26:41.7] NL: Yeah. It seems like the blast radius of Linux kernel 2.0 is significantly higher than the Linux kernel itself. That made it sound like I was like, pooh-poohing what you're saying. It’s more like, we're learning the same lesson, but at a grander scale now. [0:27:00.5] KN: Yeah. I think that's a really elegant way of putting it. [0:27:03.6] DC: You do raise a good point. If you are embracing on a cloud native infrastructure, remember that little changes are big changes, right? Because you're thinking about managing the lifecycle of a thousand applications now, right? If you're going full-on cloud native, you're thinking about operating at scale, it's a byproduct of that. Little changes that you might be able to make to your laptop are now big changes that are going to affect a fleet of thousand machines, right? [0:27:30.0] KN: We see this in Kubernetes all the time, where a new version of Kubernetes comes out and something totally unexpected happens when it is ran at scale. Maybe it worked on 10 nodes, but when we need to fire up a thousand nodes, what happens then? [0:27:42.0] NL: Yeah, absolutely. That actually brings up something that to me, defines cloud native as well. A lot of my definition of cloud native follows in suit with Kris Nova's book, or Kris Nova, because your book was what introduced me to the phrase cloud native. It makes sense that your opinion informs my opinion, but something that I think that we were just starting to talk about a little bit is also the concept of stability. Cloud native applications and infrastructure means coding with instability in mind. It's not being guaranteed that your VM will live forever, because it's on somebody else's hardware, right? Their hardware could go down, and so what do you do? It has to move over really quickly, has to figure out, have the guarantees of its API and its endpoints are all going to be the same no matter what. All of these things have to exist for the code, or for your application to live in the cloud. That's something that I find to be very fascinating and that's something that really excites me, is not trying to make a barge, but rather trying to make a schooner when you're making an app. Something that can, instead of taking over the waves, can be buffeted by the waves and still continue. [0:28:55.6] KN: Yeah. It's a little more reactive. I think we see this in Kubernetes a lot. When I interviewed Joe a couple years ago, Joe Beda for the book to get a quote from him, he said, this magic phrase that has stuck with me over the past few years, which is “goal-seeking behavior.” If you look at a Kubernetes object, they all use this concept in Go called embedding. Every Kubernetes object has a status in the spec. All it is is it’s what's actually going on, versus what did I tell it, what do I want to go on. Then all we're doing is just like you said with your analogy, is we're just trying to be reactive to that and build to that. [0:29:31.1] JR: That's something I wonder if people don't think about a lot. They don't they think about the spec, but not the status part. I think the status part is as important, or more important maybe than the spec. [0:29:41.3] KN: It totally is. Because I mean, a status like, if you have one potentiality for status, your control loop is going to be relatively trivial. As you start understanding more of the problems that you could see and your code starts to mature and harden, those statuses get more complex and you get more edge cases and your code matures and your code hardens. Then we can take that and globally in these larger cloud native patterns. It's really cool. [0:30:06.6] NL: Yeah. Carlisia, you’re a developer who's now just getting into the cloud native ecosystem. What are your thoughts on developing with cloud native practices in mind? [0:30:17.7] CC: I’m not sure I can answer that. When I started developing for Kubernetes, I was like, “What is a pod?” What comes first? How does this all fit together? I joined the project [inaudible 00:30:24]. I don't have to think about that. It's basically moving the project along. I don't have to think what I have to do differently from the way I did things before. [0:30:45.1] DC: One thing that I think you probably ran into in working with the application is the management of state and how that relates to – where you actually end up coupling that state. Before in development, you might just assume that there is a database somewhere that you would have to interact with. That database is a way of actually pushing that state off of the code that you're actually going to work with. In this way, that you might think of being able to write multiple consumers of state, or multiple things that are going to mutate state and all share that same database. This is one of the patterns that comes up all the time when we start talking about cloud native architectures, is because we have to really be very careful about how we manage that state and mainly, because one of the other big benefits of it is the ability to horizontally scale things that are going to mutate, or consume state. [0:31:37.5] CC: My brain is in its infancy as it relates to Kubernetes. All that I see is APIs all the way down. It's just APIs all the way down. It’s not very different than as a developer for me, is not very much more complex than developing against the database that sits behind. Ask me again a year from now and I will have a more interesting answer. [0:32:08.7] KN: This is so fascinating, right? I remember a couple years ago when Kubernetes was first coming out and listening to some of the original “Elders of Kubernetes,” and even some of the stuff that we were working on at this time. One of the things that they said was we hope one day, somebody doesn't have to care about what's passed these APIs and gets to look at Kubernetes as APIs only. Then they hear that come from you authentically, it's like, “Hey, that's our success statement there. We nailed it.” It's really cool. [0:32:37.9] CC: Yeah. I don’t understood their patterns and I probably should be more cognizant about these patterns are, even if it's just to articulate them. To me, my day-to-day challenge is understanding the API, understanding what library call do I make to make this happen and how – which is just programming 101 almost. Not different from any other regular project. [0:33:10.1] JR: Yeah. That is something that's nice about programming with Kubernetes in mind, because a lot of times you can use the source code as documentation. I hate to say that particularly is a non-developer. I'm a sysadmin first getting into development and documentation is key in my mind. There's been more than a few times where I'm like, “How do I do this?” You can look in the source code for pretty much any application that you're using that's in Kubernetes, or around the Kubernetes ecosystem. The API for that application is there and it'll tell you what you need to do, right? It’s like, “Oh, this is how you format your config file. Got it.” [0:33:47.7] CC: At the same time, I don't want to minimize that knowing what the patterns are is very useful. I haven't had to do any design for Valero for our projects. Maybe if I had, I would have to be forced to look into that. I'm still getting to know the codebase and developing features, but no major design that I had to lead at least. I think with time, I will recognize those patterns and it will make it easier for me to understand what is happening. What I was saying is that not understanding the patterns that are behind the design of those APIs doesn't preclude me at all so call against it, against them. [0:34:30.0] KN: I feel this is the heart of cloud native. I think we totally nailed it. The heart of cloud native is in the APIs and your ability to interact with the APIs. That's what makes it programmable and that's what makes – gives you the interface for you and your software to interact with that. [0:34:45.1] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. API first. On the topic of cloud native, what about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation? What are our thoughts on the CNCF and what is the CNCF? Josh, you have any thoughts on that? [0:35:00.5] JR: Yeah. I haven't really been as close to the CNCF as I probably should, to be honest with you. One of the great things that the CNCF has put together are programs around getting projects into this, I don't know if you would call it vendor neutral type program. Maybe somebody can correct me on that. Effectively, there's a lot of different categories, like networking and storage and runtimes for containers and things of that nature. There's a really cool landscape that can show off a lot of these different technologies. A lot of the categories, I'm guessing we'll be talking about on this podcast too, right? Things like, what does it mean to do cloud native networking and so on and so forth? That's my purview of the CNCF. Of course, they put on KubeCon, which is the most important thing to me. I'm sure someone else on this call can talk deeper at an organization level what they do. [0:35:50.5] KN: I'm happy to jump in here. I've been working with them for I think three years now. I think first, it's important to know that they are a subsidiary of the Linux Foundation. The Linux Foundation is the original open source, nonprofit here, and then the CNCF is one of many, like Apache is another one that is underneath the broader Linux Foundation umbrella. I think the whole point of – or the CNCF is to be this neutral party that can help us as we start to grow and mature the ecosystem. Obviously, money is going to be involved here. Obviously, companies are going to be looking out for their best interest. It makes sense to have somebody managing the software that is outside, or external of these revenue-driven companies. That's where I think the CNCF comes into play. I think that's its main responsibility is. What happens when somebody from company A and somebody from Company B disagree with the direction that the software should go? The CNCF can come in and say, “Hey, you know what? Let's find a happy medium in here and let's find a solution that works for both folks and let's try to do this the best we can.” I think a lot of this came from lessons we learned the hard way with Linux. In a weird way, we did – we are in version 2.0, but we were able to take advantage of some of the priority here. [0:37:05.4] NL: Do you have any examples of a time in the CNCF jumped in and mediated between two companies? [0:37:11.6] KN: Yeah. I think the steering committee, the Kubernetes steering committee is a great example of this. It's a relatively new thing. It hasn't been around for a very long time. You look at the history of Kubernetes and we used to have this incubation process that has since been retired. We've tried a lot of solutions and the CNCF has been pretty instrumental and guiding the shape of how we're going to manage, solve governance for such a monolithic project. As Kubernetes grows, the problem space grows and more people get involved. We're having to come up with new ways of managing that. I think that's not necessarily a concrete example of two specific companies, but I think that's more of as people get involved, the things that used to work for us in the past are no longer working. The CNCF is able to recognize that and guide us out of that. [0:37:57.2] DC: Cool. That’s such a very good perspective on the CNCF that I didn't have before. Because like Josh, my perspective with CNCF was well, they put on that really cool party three times a year. [0:38:07.8] KN: I mean, they definitely are great at throwing parties. [0:38:12.6] NL: They are that. [0:38:14.1] CC: My perspective of the CNCF is from participating in the Kubernetes meetup here in San Diego. I’m trying to revive our meetup, which is really hard to do, but different topic. I know that they try to make it easier for people to find meetups, because they have on meetup.com, they have an organization. I don't know what the proper name is, but if you go there and you put your zip code, you'll find any meetup that's associated with them. My meetup here in San Diego is associated, can be easily found. They try to give a little bit of money for swags. We also give out ads for meetup. They offer help for finding speakers and they also have a speaker catalog on their website. They try to help in those ways, which I think is very helpful, very valuable. [0:39:14.9] DC: Yeah, I agree. I know about CNCF, mostly just from interacting with folks who are working on its behalf. Working at meeting a bunch of the people who are working on the Kubernetes project, on behalf of the CNCF, folks like Ihor and people like that, which are constantly amazingly with the amount of work that they do on behalf of the CNCF. I think it's been really good seeing what it means to provide governance over a project. I think that really highlights – that's really highlighted by the way that Kubernetes itself has managed. I think a lot of us on the call have probably worked with OpenStack and remember some of the crazy battles that went on between vendors around particular components in that stack. I've yet to actually really see that level of noise creep into the Kubernetes situation. I think squarely on the CNCF around managing governance, and also run the community for just making it accessible enough thing that people can plug into it, without actually having to get into a battle about taking ownership of CNI, for example. Nobody should own CNI. That should be its own project under its own governance. How you satisfy the needs for something like container networking should be a project that you develop as a company, and you can make the very best one that you could make it even attract as many customers to that as you want. Fundamentally, the way that your interface to that major project should be something that is abstracted in such a way that it isn't owned by any one company. There should be a contact in an API, that sort of thing. [0:40:58.1] KN: Yeah. I think the best analogy I ever heard was like, “We’re just building USB plugs.” [0:41:02.8] DC: That's actually really great. [0:41:05.7] JR: To that point Duffie, I think what's interesting is more and more companies are looking to the CNCF to determine what they're going to place their bets on from a technology perspective, right? Because they've been so burned historically from some project owned by one vendor and they don't really know where it's going to end up and so on and so forth. It's really become a very serious thing when people consider the technologies they're going to bet their business on. [0:41:32.0] DC: Yeah. When a project is absorbed into the CNCF, or donated to the CNCF, I guess. There are a number of projects that this has happened to. Obviously, if you see that iChart that is the CNCF landscape, there's just tons of things happening inside of there. It's a really interesting process, but I think that from my part, I remember recently seeing Sysdig Falco show up in that list and seeing them donate – seeing Sysdig donate Falco to the CNCF was probably one of the first times that I've actually have really tried to see what happens when that happens. I think that some of the neat stuff here that happens is that now this is an open source project. It's under the governance of the CNCF. It feels to me more an approachable project, right? I don't feel I have to deal with Sysdig directly to interact with Falco, or to contribute to it. It opens that ecosystem up around this idea, or the genesis of the idea that they built around Falco, which I think is really powerful. What do you all think of that? [0:42:29.8] KN: I think, to look at it from a different perspective, that's one example of when the CNCF helps a project liberate itself. There's plenty of other examples out there where the CNCF is an opt-in feature, that is only there if we need it. I think cluster API, which I'm sure we're going to talk about this in a later episode. I mean, just a quick overview is a lot of different vendors implementing the same API and making that composable and modular. I mean, nowhere along the way in the history of that project has the CNCF had to come and step in. We’ve been able to operate independently of that. I think because the CNCF is even there, we all are under this working agreement of we're going to take everybody's concerns into consideration and we're going to take everybody’s use case in some consideration, work together as an ecosystem. I think it's just even having that in place, whether or not you use it or not is a different story. [0:43:23.4] CC: Do you all know any project under the CNCF? [0:43:26.1] KN: I have one. [0:43:27.7] JR: Well, I've heard of this one. It's called Kubernetes. [0:43:30.1] CC: Is it called Kubernetes or Kubernetes? [0:43:32.8] JR: It’s called Kubernetes. [0:43:36.2] CC: Wow. That’s not what Duffie thinks. [0:43:38.3] DC: I don’t say it that way. No, it's been pretty fascinating seeing just the breadth of projects that are under there. In fact, I was just recently noticing that OpenEBS is up for joining the CNCF. There seems to be – it's fascinating that the things that are being generated through the CNCF and going through that life cycle as a project sometimes overlap with one another and it's very – it seems it's a delicate balance that the CNCF would have to play to keep from playing favorites. Because part of the charter of CNCF is to promote the project, right? I'm always curious to see and I'm fascinated to see how this plays out as we see projects that are normally competitive with one another under the auspice of the same organization, like a CNCF. How do they play this in such a way that they remain neutral, even it would – it seems like it would take a lot of intention. [0:44:39.9] KN: Yeah. Well, there's a difference between just being a CNCF project and being an official project, or a graduated project. There's different tiers. For instance, Kubicorn, a tool that I wrote, we just adopted the CNCF, like I think a code of conduct and there was another file I had to include in the repo and poof, were magically CNCF now. It's easy to get onboard. Once you're onboard, there's legal implications that come with that. There totally is this tier ladder stature that I'm not even super familiar with. That’s how officially CNCF you can be as your product grows and matures. [0:45:14.7] NL: What are some of the code of conduct that you have to do to be part of the CNCF? [0:45:20.8] KN: There's a repo on it. I can maybe find it and add it to the notes after this, but there's this whole tutorial that you can go through and it tells you everything you need to add and what the expectations are and what the implications are for everything. [0:45:33.5] NL: Awesome. [0:45:34.1] CC: Well, Valero is a CNCF project. We follow the what is it? The covenant? [0:45:41.2] KN: Yeah, I think that’s what it is. [0:45:43.0] CC: Yes. Which is the same that Kubernetes follows. I am not sure if there can be others that can be adopted, but this is definitely one. [0:45:53.9] NL: Yeah. According to Aaron Crickenberger, who was the Release Lead for Kubernetes 1.14, the CNCF code of conduct can be summarized as don't be a jerk. [0:46:06.6] KN: Yeah. I mean, there's more to it than that, but – [0:46:10.7] NL: That was him. [0:46:12.0] KN: Yeah. This is something that I remember seeing an open source my entire career, open source comes with this implication of you need to be well-rounded and polite and listen and be able to take others’ just thoughts and concerns into consideration. I think we just are getting used to working like that as an engineering industry. [0:46:32.6] NL: Agreed. Yeah. Which is a great point. It's something that I hadn't really thought of. The idea of development back in the day, it seems like before, there was such a thing as the CNCF are cloud native. It seemed that things were combative, or people were just trying to push their agenda as much as possible. Bully their way through. That doesn't seem that happens as much anymore. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? [0:46:58.9] DC: I think what you're highlighting is more the open source piece than the cloud native piece, which I – because I think that when you're working – open source, I think has been described a few times as a force multiplier for software development and software adoption. I think of these things are very true. If you look at a lot of the big successful closed source projects, they have – the way that people in this room and maybe people listening to this podcast might perceive them, it's definitely just fundamentally differently than some open source project. Mainly, because it feels it's more of a community-driven thing and it also feels you're not in a place where you're beholden to a set of developers that you don't know that are not interested in your best, and in what's best for you, or your organization to achieve whatever they set out to do. With open source, you can be a part of the voice of that project, right? You can jump in and say, “You know, it would really be great if this thing has this feature, or I really like how you would do this thing.” It really feels a lot more interactive and inclusive. [0:48:03.6] KN: I think that that is a natural segue to this idea of we build everything behind the scenes and then hey, it's this new open source project, that everything is done. I don't really think that's open source. We see some of these open source projects out there. If you go look at the git commit history, it's all everybody from the same company, or the same organization. To me, that's saying that while granted the source code might be technically open source, the actual act of engineering and architecting the software is not done as a group with multiple buyers into it. [0:48:37.5] NL: Yeah, that's a great point. [0:48:39.5] DC: Yeah. One of the things I really appreciate about Heptio actually is that all of the projects that we developed there were – that the developer chat for that was all kept in some neutral space, like the Kubernetes Slack, which I thought was really powerful. Because it means that not only is it open source and you can contribute code to a project, but if you want to talk to people who are also being paid to develop that project, you can just go to the channel and talk to them, right? It's more than open source. It's open community. I thought that was really great. [0:49:08.1] KN: Yeah. That's a really great way of putting it. [0:49:10.1] CC: With that said though, I hate to be a party pooper, but I think we need to say goodbye. [0:49:16.9] KN: Yeah. I think we should wrap it up. [0:49:18.5] JR: Yeah. [0:49:19.0] CC: I would like to re-emphasize that you can go to the issues list and add requests for what you want us to talk about. [0:49:29.1] DC: We should also probably link our HackMD from there, so that if you want to comment on something that we talked about during this episode, feel free to leave comments in it and we'll try to revisit those comments maybe in our next episode. [0:49:38.9] CC: Exactly. That's a good point. We will drop a link the HackMD page on the corresponding issue. There is going to be an issue for each episode, so just look for that. [0:49:51.8] KN: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining everyone. [0:49:54.1] NL: All right. Thank you. [0:49:54.6] CC: Thank you. I'm really glad to be here. [0:49:56.7] DC: Hope you enjoyed the episode and I look forward to a bunch more. [END OF EPISODE] [0:50:00.3] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week we take you on our mighty wings as we talk about your chance to play D&D with Kommander K at Age of Chivalry, Ad Astra, Rambo Last Blood, As Above, So Below, The Houses October Built, Highlander, Apollo 18, Wendy's RPG, DC comics has a new continuity, Inspector Gadget, Joker, The Void gains Marvel, Rip Taylor, Philip Gips, Fathom's Twilight Zone event, DCYou, BizarroTV, Zak Penn's Matrix, Atari VCS, Scream, Queen!, and Marvel and Games Workshop have a grimdark baby. So brace for the quickening, it's time for a Geek Shock!

If you would like to support us and get a ton more shows, head over to our  PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 114: Naomi #6 and Event Leviathan #2 It's over an hour long!   Intro (0:00), Detective Comics #1007 (08:01), Superman #13 (29:44), Batman and the Outsiders #3 (49:48), Young Justice #7 (1:09:24), Mail #1 (1:28:17), The Flash #74 (1:43:30), Hawkman #14 (2:06:58), Red Hood and the Outlaws #36 (2:28:42), Supergirl #32 (2:54:58), Batman #74 (3:52:13)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

It's another Spotlight and this one is on the last Batgirl issue by Mairghread Scott.  If you want to support us for all the podcasts we do and get even more shows, head over to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 113: Adventures of the Super Sons #12 & DCeased #3   Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

It's a GFC Episode with everyone lending a hand with Eric gone for parts of the show attending a wedding.  If you want even more (or Eric and the show), head over to our  PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 113: Adventures of the Super Sons #12 & DCeased #3 Intro (0:00), Justice League #27 (22:21), Green Lantern #9 (1:02:24), Mail #1 (1:33:29), Batgirl #36 (2:00:02), Deathstroke #45 (2:28:53), Lois Lane #1 (2:44:56), Wild Storm #24 (3:06:41), Batman/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III #2 (3:35:44), Batman/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III #3 (3:51:58), Superman: Up In the Sky #1 (4:13:36), Female Furies #6 (4:58:46)    Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics   Like ShareDownload

It's back to basics...more books, more nonsense, and more cursing.  Just like old times!  If you want to support us and get more shows, head over to to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 112: The Silencer #18 & Dial H For Hero #4 Intro (0:00), Detective Comics #1006 (17:58), Action Comics #1012 (46:39), Mail #1 (1:08:11), Flash #73 (1:22:52), Justice League Dark #12 (1:49:15), Mail #2 (2:14:18), Jeremy’s Orlando Zone featuring Wonder Woman #73 and Martian Manhunter #6 (2:31:09), Batman Beyond #33 (3:32:36), Mail #3 (4:04:54), The Terrifics #17 (4:22:35)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

4 Books!  Yep, not many books but plenty of comic talk and nonsense.  Since this is one of the shortest episodes ever, you can head over to to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 111: Justice League #26 & Superman Year One #1 Intro (0:00), Teen Titans #31 (12:04), Nightwing #61 (37:16), Mail #1 (56:09), Aquaman #49 (1:08:53), Batman #73 (1:29:10)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics  

We had a ton of computer issues on Eric's end so some of the podcast is just Jim by his lonesome. If you want to hear more of both Jim and Eric, however, head over to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 110: Batman and the Outsiders #2 and Superman #12 DC Comics Reviewed and Timestamps: Intro (0:00), Event Leviathan #1 (07:35), Detective Comics #1005 (34:28), The Batman Who Laughs #6 (50:26), Mail #1 (1:18:27), Flash #72 (1:37:34), Hawkman #13 (2:08:58), Red Hood and the Outlaws #35 (2:29:21), Mail #2 (2:50:46), Catwoman #12 (3:09:40), Supergirl #31 (3:24:35)   Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics    

We are back and...well, we are back!  If you still need more or want to support us for all we do, head over to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight: Justice League #25 & DCeased #2 DC Comics Reviewed and Timestamps: Intro (0:00), Young Justice #6 (15:03), Shazam! #6 (55:38), Adventures of the Super Sons #11 (1:18:55), Mail #1 (1:32:04), Green Lantern #8 (2:03:02), Female Furies #5 (2:43:00), Mail #2 (3:04:12), Deathstroke #44 (3:35:21), Batman #72 (4:02:17)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

Everyone, Please send out some major positive vibes to Reggie right now!  If you still need more or want to support us for all we do, head over to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 108: Flash #71 and The Silencer #17 DC Comics Reviewed and Timestamps: Intro (0:00), Detective Comics #1004 (08:02), Action Comics #1011 (34:54), Freedom Fighters #6 (1:02:05), Mail #1 (1:30:09), Justice League Dark #11 (1:58:51), Wonder Woman #71 (2:23:22), Batgirl #35 (2:41:38), Martian Manhunter #5 (3:08:08), Batman Beyond #32 (3:56:08), Dial H For Hero #3 (4:34:38), The Terrifics #16 (4:52:28) Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

It's another spotlight episode, this one featuring the underappreciated Freedom Fighters!  Jim and Eric love it and so should you!   If you still need more or want to support us for all we do, head over to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 108: Flash #71 and The Silencer #17   Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

Not a ton of books again this week, but we make due and bring you over 3 hours of reviews, mail and nonsense!  If you still need more or want to support us for all we do, head over to our PATREON and join on up!  You'll get a ton of shows including this week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 107: Superman #11 and Naomi #5  Intro (0:00), Justice League #24 (11:09), Teen Titans #30 (45:20), Mail #1 (1:03:16), Aquaman #48 (1:23:07),  Lucifer #8 (1:47:02), High Level #4 (2:02:23), Mail #2 (2:31:28), Nightwing #60 (2:51:20), Batman #71 (3:10:51)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

If you need even more (you know you do!) head over to our Patreon (www.patreon.com/weirdscience) and for as little as $1 a month, you can help support the podcast and get a bunch of shows including this Week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight Ep 106: Batman and the Outsiders #1 and Red Hood and the Outlaws #34 is Available   Intro (0:00), Detective Comics #1003 (15:19), The Batman Who Laughs #5 (38:08), Mail #1 (1:02:29), Shazam! #5 (1:25:46), Flash #70 (1:45:37), Justice League: Odyssey #9 (2:01:48), Mail #2 (2:18:03), Hawkman #12 (3:39:55), Wonder Woman #70 (4:03:30), House of Whispers #9 (4:23:12), Supergirl #30 (4:39:32), Catwoman #11 (4:54:15), Wonder Twins #4 (5:12:49)   Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy

It's not the longest one , but if you need even more (you know you do!) head over to our Patreon (www.patreon.com/weirdscience) and for as little as $1 a month, you can help support the podcast and get a bunch of shows including this Week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight: DC's Year of the Villain #1 and Batman/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III #1 Intro (0:00), Justice League #23 (06:20), Young Justice #5 (28:42), Mail #1 (50:46), DCeased #1 (1:03:22), Green Lantern #7 (1:26:00), Female Furies #4 (1:45:26), Mail #2 (2:19:51), The Dreaming #9 (2:19:51), Mail #3 (2:37:25), Deathstroke #43 (2:51:10), Adventures of the Super Sons #10 (3:10:33), Batman #70 (3:20:02) Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

Welcome back to a 6+ hour podcast of books and nonsense.  If you need even more (you know you do!) head over to our Patreon (www.patreon.com/weirdscience) and for as little as $1 a month, you can help support the podcast and get a bunch of shows including this Week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight: Detective Comics #1002 and The Silencer #16 Intro (0:00), Action Comics #1010 (18:59), Freedom Fighters #5 (44:52), Mail #1 (59:32), Heroes In Crisis #8 (1:31:28), Justice League Dark #10 (2:01:46), Dial H For Hero #2 (2:21:53), Batgirl #34 (2:36:35), The Terrifics #15 (2:51:29), Books of Magic #7 (3:06:00), Mail #2 (3:18:42), Wild Storm #22 (3:44:35), Batman Beyond #31 (4:12:31), Flash #69 (4:55:28), Wonder Woman #69 (5:19:42)   also this week on our Patreon: Weird Science Comics News Podcast Ep 77: Eisners, More Delays and Top 10 Sales New 52 Review (Rewind): Justice League Vol 1 Origin DC Comics Back Issues Podcast Ep 22: Batman #424 - The Diplomat's Son (1988)   Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

If you want even more shows or just want to support us for all we do, head over to our Patreon (www.patreon.com/weirdscience) and for as little as $1 a month, you can help support the podcast and get a bunch of shows including this Week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight: Damage #16 and High Level #3 Intro (0:00), Justice League #22 (16:46), Nightwing #59 (41:52), Mail #1 (59:30), Aquaman #47 (1:10:41), Lucifer #7 (1:43:53), Mail #2 (1:55:13), Electric Warriors #6 (2:08:31), Teen Titans #29 (2:45:24), Naomi #4 (3:02:41), Batman #69 (3:21:30)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

Here we go again!  There are a bunch of books and we get right to it.  If you want even more shows or just want to support us for all we do, head over to our Patreon (www.patreon.com/weirdscience) and for as little as $1 a month, you can help support the podcast and get a bunch of shows including this Week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight: Superman #10 and Red Hood and the Outlaws #33 Intro (0:00), Detective Comics #1001 (14:33), The Batman Who Laughs #4 (38:58). Batman #68 (1:07:34), Mail #1 (1:13:05), Flash #68 (1:51:35), Titans #36 (2:18:22), Wonder Woman #68 (2:34:12), Mail #2 (2:52:31), Justice League: Odyssey #8 (3:20:47), Hawkman #11 (3:37:49), House of Whispers #8 (3:53:13), Hollywood Kid on Shazam (4:17:55), Catwoman #10 (4:27:49), Supergirl #29 (4:42:24), Wonder Twins #3 (5:01:25) Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics    

Here we are with another 5+ Hour show!  We play a little catch up with some books from last week so that fills things out a bit with this being a slow week over here in DC Comics land.  If you want even more shows or just want to support us for all we do, head over to our our Patreon (www.patreon.com/weirdscience) and for as little as $1 a month, you can help support the podcast and get a bunch of shows including this Week's DC Comics Patreon Spotlight: Female Furies #3 and Harley Quinn #60   Intro (0:00), Justice League #21 (17:15), Young Justice #4 (53:07), Mail #1 (1:17:01), Green Lantern #6 (1:34:17), The Terrifics #14 (1:57:05), The Dreaming #8 (2:10:43), Mail #2 (2:29:53), Hex Wives #6 (2:57:19), Martian Manhunter #4 (3:18:37), Deathstroke #42 (4:00:49), Adventures of the Super Sons #9 (4:21:12), The Silencer #15 (4:41:07)  Keywords: Comics, Comic Books, Comic Book Podcast, Comics Podcast, Batman, Superman, DC Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Podcast, Comic Book, superhero, superhero podcast, DCU, DC YOU, dc rebirth, dc comics rebirth, batman rebirth, superman rebirth, green arrow rebirth, green lantern rebirth, New 52, Supergirl, Superboy   Email us @ weirdsciencedccomics@gmail.com Follow Us on Twitter @weirdsciencedc Follow Us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/weirdsciencedccomics

President Putin's 'state of the union' address to Russian legislators this week included an unusually blunt message to the self-styled 'masters of the universe' in Washington, DC: "You never listen to us. Now, you listen!" Taking the opportunity to announce the completion of an overhaul of Russia's strategic nuclear arsenal, including some new hi-tech weaponry that he claims is unstoppable by any other military systems, Putin put the smack down on American pretensions to single-handedly...

Starling Tribune - Season 4 Edition – Eleven-Fifty-Nine (A CW Network Arrow Television Show Fan Podcast)   The Official Arrow Podcast of the Gonna Geek Network   Transcript:         http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=26445 Episode:            “Eleven-Fifty-Nine” [Season 4 Episode 18] Air Date:           Wednesday, April 6th, 2016 Director:           Rob Hardy 3 Arrow | 2 Flash | 1 Blindspot | 1 Empire | 2 Originals | 7 Criminal Minds | 3 Bones | 1 Castle | 5 Vampire Diaries ... Writers: Marc Guggenheim Keto Shimizu IMDB:   http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4862552/?ref_=tt_ep_nx Promo:  https://youtu.be/lq-rbz75UKs   - Reporters give their thoughts of the death reveal. - Was the life-saving of Laurel too quick? - Is it the Arrow Cave? The Arrow Bunker? The Arrow Lair? - Will The Black Canary return to Arrow and what version would she be? - Great Arrow fight choreography throughout the episode to the end - How the reporters feels about the reveal of Andy Diggle's true allegiance - Where did Malcolm get his new hand from? - The prison escape was impressive. #StabbyMcStabsAlot - The reporter comment on their thoughts on the creative team's decision to kill off Black Canary….4 different opinions here! - Did Oliver euthanize Laurel? - Reporters talk about how the show will proceed from here? - Why did Team Arrow re-assemble the idol? - What did Laurel say to Oliver? - The lack of Arrow Cave security needs to be used to their advantage - Paul Blackthorn's reaction to Laurel's death was very powerful - The reporters run down the Pop Culture Easter Eggs in the episode - Arrow News, Feedback and comments from the chat - Thank you for downloading and listening!   EPISODE DC EASTER EGGS:   Season 4 Episode 18 “Eleven-Fifty-Nine” Easter Eggs (Date: xx Apr 2016) Article: http://comicbook.com/2016/04/07/arrow-things-you-might-have-missed-in-eleven-fifty-nine/   Taken - “Make This City Great Again” - Trump style campaign slogan Iron Heights Murmur (Mouth sewn shut guy) “The City Needs Heroes without masks” trope again News 52 Mic Flag (again)   ARROW NEWS:   Echo Kellum Promoted to Series Regular  (Date: 04 Apr 2016) More Mr. Terrific next season! Link: http://tvline.com/2016/04/04/arrow-season-5-echo-kellum-series-regular-curtis/   Katie Cassidy to guest star on Flash  (Date: 06 Apr 2016) Appears in the 2nd-to-last S.02 Flash Ep. as an Earth-2 character named Black Siren (a character from the Justice League animated series) based on a golden age Black Canary Link: http://comicbook.com/2016/04/05/arrows-katie-cassidy-to-appear-on-the-flash-as-earth-2s-black-si/ Video: http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/watch-arrows-katie-cassidy-stalks-flashs-streets-as-black-siren   Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle explain the death (Date: 07 Apr 2016) “we live in a universe where there's resurrection, parallel earths, time travel, flashbacks — we have all these different ways of keeping Katie in the Arrow-verse family,” Guggenheim says. “Death does not mean goodbye on any of these shows” Link: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/06/arrow-laurel-death-spoilers   Katie Cassidy's quote on Goodbye (Date: 07 Apr 2017) "Since Season 2 up until now, Laurel has had a truly amazing journey. The writers have written so well for me and I've had such an incredible arc. It made sense to me creatively. Laurel's story has come to an end in the Arrowverse. I love everyone on set and our crew. Being there for four and a half years, they've become family, so it's hard to not go into work every day and get to work with such amazing people. That part is certainly sad, but I was okay with it. We all came to an understanding that this was what was going to happen and it made sense to me. I think the shock value is good. It's such a jolt and a turn in the story that it gives the writers so much more to do and places to go with it. Otherwise, I feel like shows can get stale. Link: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_tv/arrow/arrow-cast-and-producers-explain-the-shocking-death-of-spoiler-in-a133159   REACTION ARTICLES   Forbes: Olicity Killed Arrow  (Date: 07 Apr 2016) Arrow Jumped the Shark. Killed the wrong character Link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2016/04/07/arrow-is-dead-and-olicity-killed-it/#23b8d0927509   Hollywood Reporter: Who is the Next Black Canary  (Date: 07 Apr 2016) Spoiler - the author thinks Felicity Link: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/arrow-laurel-dies-black-canary-881454   AV Club - what just happened??  (Date: 07 Apr 2016) Good analysis of the impact of Checkov's gun, and different camps in the Arrow Fan community Link: http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/wait-what-hell-did-arrow-just-do-234924 ARROW CAST & CREW INTERVIEWS   Marc Guggenheim talks Paparazzi and leaks on ew.com  (Date: 05 Apr 2016) “Look, it's not cool,” executive producer Marc Guggenheim tells EW. “Straight up … I'll just say it: Shame on those people. I just look at these paparazzi as they're ruining the party for everybody,”. Link: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/05/arrow-death-leaks   Marc Guggenheim talks character deaths on ew.com  (Date: 04 Apr 2016) “I mean, we killed off Hawkman (Falk Hentschel) in episode 2 of Legends. It's not like we have to go to DC and get permission. DC is our partner in all this and we keep them updated” “I don't believe that superheroes shouldn't die. They are living myths, but I like the fact that they're mortal myths. I think it gives stakes to the stories”. Link: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/04/arrow-superhero-death-marc-guggenheim   Marc Guggenheim talks about death on tvline.com  (Date: 05 Apr 2016) “We started off this year with the promise of a death,” says Guggenheim, “and when we worked our way through our various creative choices, we realized [this is] the thing that will give us the most pop going into the end of the season and into next season,” Link: http://tvline.com/2016/04/05/arrow-season-4-death-grave-spoilers/   GREEN ARROW COMICS & TOY NEWS   Green Arrow Issue #51  (Date: 06 Apr 2016) In war-torn Africa, Green Arrow and Deathstroke are both hunting for the same man-Doctor Miracle-whose blood cures any disease. They're battling not only each other, but also a militant group known as The Whites. There is no deadlier foe than the world's greatest assassin, and against his blade Green Arrow may have met his end. Link: https://www.comixology.com/Green-Arrow-2011-51/digital-comic/354265?ref=c2l0ZS9pbmRleC9jb20uY29taXhvbG9neS5kY2NvbWljczMvZGVza3RvcC9zbGlkZXJMaXN0LzEwNzQz   Good article summing up “REBIRTH”  (Date: 06 Apr 2016) Think of Rebirth as DC You take two. It's change, but change rooted in keeping the status quo of what currently works for the company, while cutting the more experimental, diverse series that hadn't been selling—while tossing in die-hard, fan-friendly bonuses like the return of the classic Superman. Link: http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-hell-is-dc-comics-rebirth-anyway-1769164590   FEEDBACK:   Voicemail – Black Adam   NEXT EPISODE   Promo for Next Week: Episode 19 - “Canary Cry” (Date: 27 Apr 2015) Article: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_tv/arrow/new-extended-promo-for-arrow-season-4-episode-19-canary-cry-a133167 Episode:            “Canary Cry” [Season 4 Episode 19] Air Date:           Wednesday, April 27, 2016 Summary:         No credits released on IMDB yet Director:           xxx Writers:             xxx IMDB:               xxx     Tune in to see what the Starling Tribune crew thinks will happen this season on Arrow based off what we've seen so far. After the show wraps keep listening as we bring fans on the show discuss their theories for season 4.   If you missed us live catch us next time and chime in yourself! Plus you won't miss out on our live post-show conversations.   Join The Starling Tribune each week as we stream live on Thursday nights at 9:00 PM eastern or 8:00 PM Central at gonnageek.com/live. Join the fun chatroom and interact with the hosts live. Contact us: @StarlingTribune - starlingtribune@gmail.com - www.starlingtribune.com - www.facebook.com/starlingtribune - 612-888-CAVE or 612-888-2283.   Starling Tribune is proud to be a member of the GonnaGeek network found at GonnaGeek.com. For more geeky podcast visit GonnaGeek.com.   You can find us on iTunes under ''Starling Tribune." We are very thankful for all of our positive iTunes reviews. You can find all our contact information here on the Network page of GonnaGeek.com Our complete archive is always available at www.starlingtribune.com   This podcast was recorded Thursday April 7th, 2016.   Thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed the show!

Gian, Eugene and Tyler talk about the DC "You" and go down the rabbit hole that is Chaos Magic.  Follow us on iTunes and Twitter. 

Tyler and Mikey-chan watch what might be the biggest train wreck in all of comic book films, and take a look at the somewhat clunky DC "You". Follow us on twitter and iTunes, and Mikey-chan will personally handle your genitals like so many carcinogenic moon rocks. Also check out offtimeradio.com because I said so. 

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009

GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009 Night Of Inauguration Meeting Washington, DC ""You'll remember this as the day the seeds of 2012 were sown." - Newt Gingrich Republican Reps."Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives."Eric Cantor (Va.) Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) Paul Ryan (Wis.) Pete Sessions (Texas) Jeb Hensarling (Texas), Pete Hoekstra (Mich.) and Dan Lungren (Calif.), along with Republican Sens. Jim DeMint (S.C.), Jon Kyl (Ariz.), Tom Coburn (Okla.), John Ensign (Nev.) and Bob Corker (Tenn.). The non-lawmakers present included Newt Gingrich, several years removed from his presidential campaign, and Frank Luntz, the long-time Republican wordsmith.Notably absent were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) Jan. 20 2013  GOP Continues GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started 1/20/2009