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In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with Rob Holmes of Texas Capital Bank. Rob shares the bank's dramatic turnaround story since he became President and CEO in 2021 amid challenges, including a failed merger. Rob explains how Texas Capital improved its standing through strategic moves like fortifying capital levels and attracting talent from global institutions. We explore Texas Capital's community focus through initiatives increasing volunteerism and launching a charitable foundation. Rob highlights how their junior program brings diverse talent while nurturing a vibrant culture. Wrapping up, Rob discusses maintaining liquidity amid regional banking stress, their strong capital position, and diversification that sets them apart. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Rob and I discuss the transformation of Texas Capital under Rob's leadership since 2021, highlighting the strategic moves that improved the bank's financial standing and attracted top-tier talent. Rob explains how Texas Capital's strong capital position and strategic diversification helped it navigate the regional banking stress of 2023. We explore Texas Capital's commitment to community engagement, including extensive volunteer hours, the founding of a new charitable foundation, and various philanthropic activities across Texas. Rob elaborates on the bank's innovative junior program, which has attracted diverse and talented professionals to Texas Capital. We discuss the importance of maintaining a respectful, collaborative workplace culture and the value of in-office collaboration for fostering a strong, healthy culture and achieving better customer outcomes. Rob shares insights on the challenges facing the banking industry, such as regulatory inconsistencies, the inverted yield curve, technology integration, and commercial real estate risks. We discuss Texas Capital's strategic initiatives to expand services, including public finance and equity research in oil and gas. Rob reflects on the lessons he has learned from his career, emphasizing the importance of candor, transparency, and servant leadership. Rob recounts personal anecdotes about his first jobs and leisure pursuits, offering a glimpse into his personal life and leadership style. We touch on the role of media in shaping perceptions of regional banks and the distinct advantages of regional banks in serving local communities and businesses. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Texas Capital GUESTS Rob HolmesAbout Rob TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Rob Holmes, President and CEO of Texas Capital. Rob shares an inspiring story on how Texas Capital has rebuilt itself and become the first full-service financial services institution headquartered in Texas. Rob, I want to thank you for joining me here on Building Texas Business. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Let's start. I know you're the CEO Building Texas Business. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Let's start. I know you're the CEO of Texas Capital. Tell the listeners a little bit about what Texas Capital is and the type of services it provides here in Texas. Rob: Great. Well, thank you very much for having me. So Texas Capital had a very proud founding in the late 90s by Texas business people to found a bank to serve Texas businesses with local decision making. After all, the banks failed in the late 80s and they had a very proud run and 05 went public and did very well. Then about the mid teens we kind of started going a little sideways and by the time I got there the bank needed to be kind of rebuilt and so we had a failed merger with a bank about a third our size and that tells you anything, and really because of COVID. But after that they needed new leadership and so what we did was we started over and we went fast. So we raised a perpetual deferred deal with sub-debt securitization, got out of a line of business correspondent banking that attracted a lot of capital and improved the capital by about 270 basis points in about eight weeks, and that's my bet as we run the bank very conservatively. We also brought in a lot of new talent. So the entire operating committee is new. We have a new junior program we can get into that later. But then we started on the journey to build and this is kind of interesting. I think you'll find it interesting. We're the first full service financial services firm ever to be headquartered in Texas and if you think about it it makes perfect sense. So in the 80s you had Glass-Steagall and stuff. You had a lot of big banks. They failed. They were replaced by larger institutions from out of state that saw this as a very attractive market. But the in-market banks never went into the full service direction. So regional banks are made from community banks and they get bigger and they didn't have the products and services. They just had NIM banks, if you will Sure. Chris: Well, that's an impressive thing to have a claim to being the only one headquartered in Texas. I would not have thought that, you know, given some of the other Texas yeah. So I mean you're not kidding when you said a full restart just a few years ago. Rob: Full restart. So we have think about who we're able to attract, and this says more about Texas than Texas Capital. But the woman that runs treasury services for us ran treasury services for JPMorgan Chase globally. Our chief risk officer was the head of risk for JPMorgan's investment bank and then chief risk officer was the head of risk for JP Morgan's investment bank and then chief risk officer for the commercial bank and then head of risk for real estate globally. Our head of ops was a head of ops and tech for Stan O'Neill at Merrill Lynch. The CEO Started in the mailroom, ended up reporting as CEO head of ops and tech for Merrill Lynch. I think he can do it here and that so and that just kind of it keeps going. Our CHRO came from Cilindes and our CIO has an impressive background. Our head of commercial banking all of them had bigger jobs at much larger institutions. Chris: Yeah, what that tells me, Rob, is that those people saw a bright future in the business climate in Texas to make those kind of moves to join you and the Dallas headquarters. Rob: There's no doubt about it and, by the way, I wouldn't have tried this anywhere else, I mean for sure. So, as you know, texas is eighth largest economy in the world, second largest workforce, youngest workforce, fastest growing. We've created 46,. We've created more jobs in 46 last 48 months, so it's a very attractive place to be overall? Chris: What was it about just speaking to you? I know you joined in 2021, that based on the career you had built to that moment where you saw this as the right opportunity for you. Rob: I was very happy where I was. So I was primarily in the investment bank at JPMorgan Chase, but my last 10 years I ran the large corporate bank and the commercial bank ended up taking that to 22 countries. So I ran that business. Globally it was over $180 billion in assets. It was a third treasury, a third lending and a third investment banking. Great business, great people. But when this bank kind of went sideways, I had two or three people call me and say, hey, I'm thinking about this, would you come run it? And it surprised me. I'm like, why are you calling me? But then I started looking at it and, like you, I'm from Texas. I commuted to New York for 25 of the 31 years that I worked for JP Morgan. But people kind of said, why don't you come home and build something special with where you're from? And that, through more and more dialogue, became very appealing to me and I did not know and shame on me that as bad a shape as a bank was when we got there. But it ended up being a blessing because you know like today it'd be very difficult to do what we did. I mean to have a board, investor base, regulators, constituents. Let you reinvest. We reinvested over a third of our non-interest expense and then more, and we said to the investor community and the board and others that we're going to have negative operating leverage for about a year and a half. That'd be very hard to do in this climate, right? And so the other thing we had to do became a blessing because you had to do it all at once, and so I'm glad that's behind us. Today the bank is. It used to have just mono banking, like a community or regional bank. Today we have segmentation, so you have business banking for small businesses, middle market banking for a little larger businesses, a little more sophistication, and then we have a corporate banking group like a money center bank. And when you have a corporate banking group you have to have industry expertise. So we have energy, diversified FIG, government, not-for-profit healthcare, tmt and mortgage, so we have the industry expertise of any money center bank right here in Texas. And then we have private wealth and then we rebuilt all of treasury. So it's a brand new bank. We have a new payments platform, new lockbox, new card, new merchant, new digital onboarding that we came up with. And so we people say the banks can't compete on technology like with the big bank, but we can because we have one platform. Those big banks have many platforms because they're a combination of many banks. We can go in that if you want. And then we have one platform. Those big banks have many platforms because they're a combination of many banks. We can go in that if you want. And then we have, as I said, private wealth, investment banking, and we can go into as many of those areas as you want. Chris: So you basically built it like you said. As businesses are coming to Texas, you're ready to serve whatever need they have. Rob: For sure. So we want to be very relevant to our clients and we are a one-stop shop, so you won't outgrow us. We were a top 10 arranger of bank debt for middle market companies in the years. We've done about $110 billion of notional trades in about 18 months. Wow, it's profitable. Chris: So what's your vision for the future, then for Texas Capital, and kind of, how are you working to achieve? Rob: that it's actually pretty simple. It's maturing the platform that we built. So we are the number one lender to Texas-based businesses of any Texas-based bank. Now that's new. We've had tremendous success. Business owners and decision makers love the local decision making. They love the fact that when they hire us, they're getting a very talented, experienced MD working for them instead of maybe the money center bank, whatever, a VP or something assigned to it. They just like the local decision making, local access. But the go forward strategy is People ask me this all the time what's next? And they think that we have a big bang answer. The big bang answer is delighting clients and banking the best clients in our markets, and we've always said, or I've always said we'll be defined by our clients, and so we have been blessed to have clients be attracted to the strategy and platform. So we're going to just do more of what we've done. Chris: So what I like about that strategy is the simplicity. I think there's a lesson there for entrepreneurs and other business owners in what you've done in the last few years, and that to me is get the foundation right and your core right Correct, and then do the fundamentals really well. Right, it's blocking and tackling is what you're doing. Rob: It's executing now for sure. And I had one CEO of a very renowned New York financial firm ask him to come see me. They had heard about what we were doing and he wanted to understand it because we actually we took what he would say was the very best person from his sales and trading floor who had been there 18 years. He didn't understand how we could attract that person because that person drove a U-Haul to Dallas with his wife and kids before we were even open. And he said tell me your strategy. And I went through it and, to be honest with you, I was hoping he would like it because I was pretty long the strategy. And so he did. And I said what do you think? He said I think y'all are going to be very successful. And this was early on. And I said why is that? He said do you have a differentiated strategy with differentiated talent in a differentiated market? And I think that's true. But then he said what do you think? And I said well, our talent's really. This is back in 21. Now we've done all these things, but I said that the talent is really good, but we've got to do everything with this jersey on now and delight our clients with TCB jersey, not another jersey. And he said look, rob, do it once, it'll be hard, do it three times, you'll be good. The fifth time you're an expert and I kind of he kind of and he's pretty renowned. It was a pretty simple lesson but it's kind of true. And now we have done it and we are good at what we're doing. But we still can mature the platform, that treasury platform we talked about. It's literally second to none. We're doing open banking for clients. We're doing a digital onboarding. You can open a commercial account tomorrow at a money center bank. That take eight weeks or six weeks. But that platform to scale to get the most out of it, I mean we could run it without any more investment for five years. So we got to scale the business and, by the way, it's happening. So that treasury platform is it's called P times V, price times volume that's how many transactions are going through the factory or warehouse financial transactions. That's usually for a bank it's a 2% business at best. It grows the economy, it grows the GDP. We're going 17%, quarter over quarter, year, quarter after quarter. That's remarkable Because of new clients moving to the platform. So it is scaling but we just need to continue to do that Right. Chris: So you talked about the platform a couple of times. What type of I guess technology or emerging technologies do you see having the biggest impact in the banking industry over the next, say, three to five years? Rob: I think real-time payments, I think open banking, and people don't really understand what open banking is. What open banking is? It's actually very simple, so think well, here's, here's one simple way. Part of it is you don't have to leave your internal financial platform to go to our platform. We'll put an API on yours and so you can just push a button and be into our system and send ACH or wire or what. So I think AI, I think open banking and I think real-time payments. Okay. Chris: Well, I can speak from experience, as we transitioned to Texas Capital a year ago and, to your point of the ease of that transition and being able to deal with decision makers made it seamless. Good Well thank you. It's been a great relationship for us, for sure. Rob: Good Well thank you. Chris: What you're saying is true, Well, thank you. It's been a great relationship for us for sure. Good, Well, thank you. I can attest to that. What you're saying is true, Well, thank you. Let's talk a little bit about where you see corporate leadership whether that's your C-suite or just the company as it exists and community impact. What type of initiatives is Texas Capital working on to be a meaningful member of the community? Rob: Yeah, well, that's a. Thank you very much for the for the easy pitch. So I think we do. We bat way above our weight in community impact. So we do tens of thousands of hours of employee volunteer in the community. We, as part of this transformation, when we were investing in the platform, we took time to also found our first foundation. We never had a foundation before. So we have a foundation and we do volunteer hours and we just were part of the group that bought Opal Lear Newhouse. We were the first one to open a branch in West Dallas. We gave the founding seed money for Southern Gateway in Dallas. We're big supporters of Rodeo here in Houston. Last year I think we sponsored the opening night, so I think you're going to see us pretty much all over the state of Texas in terms of giving and more than just money but time, resources, expertise to philanthropies. We hosted a great event about three weeks ago. People came from all over the country and it was for veterans and we had veteran not-for-profits and we had veteran-owned businesses and we just brought them together and talked about issues and how they could work together and synergies between the two and advancing veterans on a go-forward basis, and the people that came would just blow you away and the feedback of it. I happened to be out of town on a three-day weekend afterwards out of the country and somebody approached me and I didn't know them and they didn't know me, but I guess they'd seen my picture or something and they thanked me for having that veteran event. Wow, and so it had a far, far impact. It will do things like that. We have a nonprofit event in every city, getting nonprofits together, helping them learn how to raise money and trade best practices, and we do that and we'll do that in every city during the summer. So you know, our giving is good, Our volunteer hours are fantastic, Our sharing of expertise is good. Our investment in the community is great, Good. Chris: Let's circle back to because that kind of made me think of team building, right, so you talked about basically a wholesale change with the team around you. What are some of the things that you look for to make sure you're you know, through that recruiting and hiring process, that you're getting the right person for the position? Rob: Yep, so this is a great question and this was the key to what we've done so far and how we're going to reach our 25 goals. So in September of 21, when we announced a strategic plan, which was pretty dramatic, we said we're not going to achieve our financial goals until 25. With that came a lot of change and a lot of talent. So 80% of the people at the firm are new since I got there. That's 80% of over 2,000 people. So that's a lot of change, managing through a lot of change through a transformation, through a regional quote, unquote regional banking practice that I'd love to talk about, regional banking practice, regional banking stress that I'd love to talk about transformation. So there's a lot going on there, both internally and externally, that we had to manage through. And what we did is we started at the top and the bottom, so we put new leadership with new skill sets and new expectations and new goals of banking the best clients in our markets instead of just being a bank, etc. And we also started a junior program. It was the first junior program in the history of the bank. Chris: You mentioned that earlier, so tell us a little more about the junior program. Rob: It's awesome If you have a kid and they want to get into finance and they don't want to go to New York but they want to work at a great financial services firm to have them join us. So we post in. So I got there in January of 21. It so I got there in January 21. It's COVID Nobody's in the office. We'd just been through this internal stress with the failed merger, new CEO, the whole bit. I said we need a junior program. We posted 60 positions. We got 800 applications. We hired 60-something. A third of those had their masters. That wasn't required. The average GPA was over 374. So people love what we're doing right. The next year there's over 2,000 applicants and our junior program is great. And, by the way, I helped build one in the investment bank in my last firm and one in the commercial bank in my last firm. I thought they were both very good. This one's awesome. So you come in, you go through four or five months of training and then you go into your line of business. But we probably hired you after your internship the summer before, if that makes sense. Sure, the program has some of the diverse classes I've ever seen in banking and we didn't do that. This may be controversial. We do that on purpose. We did that because we hired the best people Exactly and they're the most diverse classes, and so we're really excited about that. And then the attrition rate there isn't nearly what we thought it would be. We built it for a higher attrition rate because those kids usually leave a large percentage after third year. Sure. They're not leaving. Rob: They like it, so that's been kind of fun. It's a good problem, right, it's a great problem and we'll use all of them. And, by the way, after that change you should just know the attrition stuff has dramatically slowed as the transformation slowed. We got all the talented people in place that we needed so we are ahead of corporate America, finance and Texas companies for attrition and excited about that in the new culture here. ADVERT Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders. Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Well that you know that low attrition rate leads to what you talked about earlier better customer experience, more stability. Rob: We need stability. Chris: Everybody needs stability. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so you mentioned regional banking stress. Tell me what you're referring to about that. Rob: Yeah, last spring of 23,. Eb failed, first Republic and the like. We were fortunate. So, november of 22, we sold a business to Truist for $3.5 billion with a very big premium on it. With the sale of that we became if you compare us to any $100 billion bank or above in the country or any Texas public bank we have the third most capital and I think in the next quarters we'll have the second most but third and we're number one in equity tangible common equity assets. So we're the least levered. We have third most capital. Our highly liquid assets are like 29% our cash and securities. Our AOCI problem, which is the mark on the bond portfolio. Banks are struggling with that. We're very good there. So our capital, our liquidity, et cetera, was very strong. So we didn't experience outflows of deposits or anything. What we did experience was a rotation, like every bank in the country, from non-interest-bearing deposits to interest-bearing deposits. So all banks if you want to call this cost of goods sold went up. But the regional banks for us the reason I wanted to come back and talk about that people call it a regional banking crisis. It was not. It had to do with certain banks were of the size that they define regional banks that had the wrong strategy, the wrong concentrations, and they failed, right. That's not because they're regional banks, right, they just happen to be that size. By the way, credit Suisse failed too. It is a global bank, right. So you know, I think this is sometimes where the media gets the message wrong and puts fear into the market, and they love it, and they love it and so I'm really proud of what the regional banks do and how they serve their clients in market and their local communities, giving back to their communities, being Main Street lenders, and I'm really proud of. You know how we do that. I think I told you before we went on the air. We're the number one lender of Texas-based businesses, of any Texas-based bank. That's a big deal because these money center banks they may be in the state or super regionals in the state or even regionals in the state but, if they decide, oh you know what, it's not okay to bank an energy company, they don't Well, guess what? We have those decisions here. We don't have somebody else deciding our social norms. Chris: Right, right, that's a great selling point. Going back to the kind of the junior program and this new team, let's talk about culture, I mean. So how would you define the culture at Texas Capitol and kind of, what do you think you've done to kind of foster that and what do you see as necessary to keep it growing? I think? Rob: the culture is transparent, curious, candid and relentless dissatisfaction, as my general counsel calls it. So, look, we've made a lot of change. We'll continue to make a lot of change. We just hired somebody to run public finance for us. We didn't have that before. Lot of change we just hired somebody to run public finance for us. We didn't have that before. We started into the foray of public equity, research and oil and gas. We're going to keep growing and building, doing things that serve our clients and our clients' needs. But the one thing that we kind of talk about a lot is and I'll say it little softer is you know just no jerks allowed. You could talk about, you can talk about Ivy League. You know culture and they have you know big words, but the simple thing is like we're gonna treat people with respect, period. Right now. You can be tough and you can be hard, but you gotta be fair, right, and you gotta be polite. And you know you can be hard but you've got to be fair and you've got to be polite and you can have high expectations while being compassionate. So we have high expectations, we are moving fast, but we do treat people with respect and we like working with one another and that's been part of the fun is, we've been in office because we think that's how you build a career and not a job, and that's how you collaborate to serve your client and that's what's best for our clients and best for employees. And we like being with one another. We don't want to work remote from a beach and not share life's experiences with our colleagues. Chris: Yeah, couldn't agree more. I mean, we got back to the office in May of 2020. I believe, and my partners here, you're a part of an organization for a reason. Organizations are a group of people together, right, correct, and we learn from each other. We can collaborate in a customer service-related industry. Like you and I are in the customer does better when we're collaborating to serve them, you and I are in the customer does better when we're collaborating to serve them, and we do that when we're together. Yep Hands down, no question. And we've been like you. We've been in office in person for a while now and you read as much as I do for the last six, seven months. You just see the pendulum swinging back because the other organizations are realizing they're losing customer satisfaction, they're losing engagement with their people. You can't have a culture if you're not together. In my view, or you can. Actually, you can have a culture. It's just not a healthy one in my view. Yeah, it's really bad, that's right. Rob: So, look, looking back, it seems like a really easy decision and, by the way, I was back in the office in 2022. But at this room, I didn't get there until January 21. Nobody's back in the office. You meant 22 as well. Yes, I did. I did. Excuse me, I did, but you know I got here in 21. We went back to office Memorial Day the Tuesday after Memorial Day of 21. And it was a harder decision then. It seems easy now Because, like even the day before, there was rumors of everybody in our ops organization that they were going to protest and walk out. You know at 901 and we decided, we made a conscious decision that this is what they're going to do and we wanted the people that wanted to be in the office right, and we may lose some people, and that's fine, and it would be harder in the short term, but the people that would be attracted to the platform and the business and us would be people that wanted careers, not jobs, and, by definition, those are the better employees, right, and I think those people attract those people and that's how we were able to transform so much while other people were sitting at home. Chris: Yeah. Now to your point. I mean, if you have a long-term strategy right, then you're willing to go through some short-term pain to get the right people that are going to help you achieve that For sure. A little bit about just your thoughts on what are some of the biggest challenges you think facing the banking industry as we sit here today and maybe for the foreseeable future. Obviously, for the last couple of years, every month everybody's watching the Fed, so that may be part of the answer. But just what do you see as the challenges? Rob: Yeah, so there's plenty for most industries though, too. So one is, and this is an excuse, but it is a challenge. The regulatory body needs to come together and be consistent and apply things consistently. That'd be helpful. We have an inverted yield curve now for the longest time, one of the longest periods in history, you know the two years four, seven something. The 10 years four two something. That makes banking very hard for a lot of technical reasons we can go into. For most banks, technology is a problem. Most banks are an aggregation of multiple banks. They're not like us that has one technology platform. That's, by the way, brand new and totally modern. Banks have not been willing to. It's been a cost cutting game because a lot of banks this is why our strategy is so good NIM banks. So net interest margin, which is loan only, the model of taking a deposit and making a loan and achieving a return above your cost of capital through cycle, I think is very difficult and that's why we supplemented our platform. You know loans, investment banking, private wealth. You know all the different things we do for a client so that we can achieve that return, because a lot of the banks to have that return would have to maybe make a riskier loan to get a higher spread or what have you? So I think the NIM banking model to get a higher spread or what have you? So I think the NIM banking model especially after spring of 23, is hard. I think the technology spend is hard. I think there's a lot of banks that have too much commercial real estate. So our commercial real estate is a very small percentage of our total capital. Regulators want you to be maybe 250 or 300%. There's a lot of banks that are 400. That's too much, yeah. And when you have that much commercial real estate, remember a lot of its construction loans, and so the construction loans. You made that decision today and you're funding it in two years. So you're going to you're that that concentration, because those paydowns are, you know, like a five-year low and commercial real estate is going to keep growing. So banks marginal loan the dollar to make the next loan. The cost just went up, so they're going to slow down their lending while the commercial real estate gets absorbed. They can't be relevant to their clients with anything other than the loan product and if they're not doing that, they're going to slow down their growth and slow down lending. They can't be relevant to their clients with anything other than the loan product, and if they're not doing that, they're going to slow down their growth and slow down lending. They don't have the margin to spend on technology. Chris: And those are some of the problems. Yeah, there's cascades, right, totally. Let's turn a little bit to just kind of you and leadership. How would you describe your leadership style today and maybe how you feel like it's evolved over your career? Rob: I think you've got to do what you want other people to do. So I'm in Houston today. We're seeing six clients we talk all the time about it's about the client, not us. Ops exists to serve a client, technology exists to serve a client. It's not for the bank. And so we have become pretty client obsessed at Texas Capital, delivering the best outcomes for our clients. I mean, like the one deal I think I told you about, we sole managed the largest debt deal in the country last year. The largest sole managed debt deal in the country last year. That's after a money center bank failed doing it. We gave the client the best advice, knowing they'd probably go with the other bank. They did. The other bank failed them. They came back to us and we did it. Now we have a client for life. So give the client the right advice, do the right thing for the client, but your people have to see you do what you want them to do. So I'm with clients. We are aggressively serving clients, but we've managed the place very conservatively. And then I think candor and transparency is really important. Chris: I think those are great qualities, anything that you could point to. I always think people I'll speak for myself, but I think I hear it in others as well a setback or failure that you encountered, that you learned from, that made you better as a leader, as a business person, anything that comes to mind, that where you look back and go, wow, that was transformational. Because of that, how long do you have? Rob: No, I think we talked about junior program, one that always comes to mind because there's early on the program of what early on my career was. When I was a junior, you know, I talked to that junior class a lot and one of the things I tell them is be careful, because you know, building your brand sometimes is too easy, like you know, if you do something great, like I had some successes early on as being a good client guy, then I was the client guy, but also my brand that I got early on was, as a junior was I wasn't very good at details and as a junior an analyst associate your only job was details Right, and so I learned the hard way that maybe I needed to focus on the details. Now I would suggest that the people that work with me think I'm too focused on the details. But that's because I learned the hard way as a junior and people corrected me Right and I'm not sure if they corrected me the wrong way or right way. That was the old days, but they certainly made an impression. So I think that was one of the things I learned is details matter and details are important, and I learned it as a junior and that stayed with me throughout my career. The other one was one I think is interesting is later on, when we were talking about a promotion, one of my bosses told me that I think this is really important for people to know, because I think it's true. He said rob, I don't it, my vote doesn't matter. The vote that matters is everybody else on the floor that works with you, because I'm not promoting you unless they want you promoted, right and so I do think that you know that's a pretty good lesson too. Chris: Yeah, kind of well servant the well, servant leadership, for sure, and that kind of team mentality For sure, team mentality. And I've said forever, I think the lessons you remember the most are the ones you learned the hard way. For sure, so the details right. Chris: So he's like I'm not going to let that happen again. For sure, that's great. Well, I appreciate you sharing those up, but I think it's a great quality leadership to have that vulnerability and humility about you for sure. So I'm going to kind of move away from the business stuff. Okay, to wrap things up, I want to know what was your first job, my? Rob: first job was uh bagging groceries and stocking grocery shelves in high school I did the same thing, did you? Chris: yeah, uh, it was hot and yeah, I tell people we had to wear like black pants. Oh, yeah, these kids get to wear shorts. Now I'm like this is going easy on them. Rob: Yeah, I think one day one of the guys got mad at me because they made me restack all the remember when people used to return the glass bottles. Yeah, and it was in a cage in the back of the alley of the grocery store. It was about 110. And nobody had organized them for about three months and I got fine job. Chris: Very good. All right, you're born and raised in Texas, so do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Rob: Both Like a brisket taco. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, I like that All right. And last thing if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? I'd probably spend half of it fly fishing in Montana and half of it quail hunting in South Texas. There you go, Just not this time of year. Not this time of year. That's right. Chris: Rob, I want to thank you for taking the time. I mean, I had no idea the details behind the transformation at Texas Capital and obviously what you and your team are doing and have done is nothing short of remarkable. So thanks for sharing that. Rob: Well, thank you, I think you know. We think Texas does deserve its own full-service financial services firm. Chris: Well, I'm glad you're delivering it. Thank you, take care. And there we have it another great episode. Don't forget to check out the show notes at boyermiller.com forward slash podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at Boyermiller.com. That's it for this episode. Have a great week and we'll talk to you next time. Special Guest: Rob Holmes.

Discover the fascinating ancient art of coppicing as we visit Priory Grove in Wales' Wye Valley, where the technique is still practised on a small scale to benefit both people and wildlife. We meet site manager Rob and contractor Joe to learn more about the coppicing carried out here, and how this interaction between people and nature has enabled the two to develop and evolve in tandem. Also in this episode, find out how an unfortunate end for ash trees resulted in a fantastic sea of wild garlic, the team's efforts to encourage dormice, bats, pine martens and other wildlife and which tree to identify by likening the trunk to elephants' feet!  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, today I am off to Priory Grove, which is next door really to the River Wye near Monmouth in Wales to meet the site manager Rob there who's gonna give me a bit of a tour. It's predominantly made up of ancient woodland and provides a wide range of habitats for wildlife. Things like roe, fallow deer, they're known to forage throughout the area, and a wide variety of bird species, including the tawny owl, sparrowhawk, and the great spotted woodpecker, which can all be seen on the wing here. All very exciting and I've just got to find it and find Rob.  Rob: Hello, I'm Rob Davies, site manager, South East Wales.  Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we are and why this is significant.  Rob: This is Priory Grove woodland. It's quite a large site on the outskirts of Monmouth, but nobody really knows what its history is. It's it's called Priory Grove, presumably because it was attached to one of the monastic estates round here. And that probably accounts for its survival as one of the one of the largest ancient woodlands next to Monmouth. And it did retain a lot of its coppice woodland, which is quite important for biodiversity.  Adam: Right. And what we're, I mean, we're standing by some felled, are these oak?  Rob: These are oak. Yes, oak, oak in length.  Adam: So why why have these been felled?  Rob: This is part of the coppice restoration programme, so coppicing on this site has been a management tool that's been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in this area and it's used to produce products like this, this oak that will go into timber framing and furniture and all those good things. And also, firewood is part of the underwood and the the the hazel and the the the understory coppice. So products for people and in the past it was used for all kinds of things before we had plastic. But it's still very useful, and so because it didn't cease until recently on this site, the animals and plants and the fauna that relies upon this method that have evolved with it essentially in the last 10,000 years or so since we've been managing woods in this way, still are present here on this site or in the local area. So if you continue the cycle you continue this interaction with the wildlife and you can help to reverse the biodiversity declines. So it's very holistic, really this management technique. But it does mean that to make space for the coppice regrowth, because trees don't grow under trees, you know it needs the light. The light needs to be there for the coppice to come up again. You have to take out some of these mature oaks that were planted 150, 200 years ago, with the intention of being used in the future. So we're planting things and we're carrying out the plans, we're bringing them to fruition, what people enacted a couple of hundred years ago.  Adam: It it's interesting, isn't it, because it it it is an ancient woodland, but that doesn't mean it's an untouched woodland, because for hundreds of years it's it's been managed. Man has had a hand in this and not only that, commerce has had a hand in that, so often I think we think of these things as a dichotomy. You have ancient woodland, nice, pristine sort of nature, and then you have sort of horrible invasive commerce. Actually, I think what's interesting about this site is that there isn't that dichotomy. They both work in tandem, is that fair?   Rob: That's right, it's a false dichotomy. So the reason these woods have survived is because they were used for people, and because of the way they're managed, coppicing and thinning is quite a sensitive technique, it allows space for nature to be present and to develop and evolve in tandem, so they're not mutually exclusive.  Adam: Yes. So tell me about coppicing is an important part of this site, tell me a little bit about what you're doing at the moment with that.  Rob: Yeah, so we've had a grant actually from the Wye Valley AONB from, supported by the Heritage Lottery Fund, to to do some coppicing work on stands that were coppiced about 20 years ago. So we're continuing that cycle. And we've been working with a company called Wye Coppice Community Interest Company, Wye Coppice CIC, and they're quite developed in, in the Wye Valley area. And we formed a good relationship with them and through them we've been able to do half a hectare of coppicing up on the other slope higher up in the site there. If you like we can go up and meet Joe?  Adam: That would be wonderful. Yeah. You you lead on I will follow. Well, you can hear from this I'm a bit out of breath, we've claimed, OK, I'll be embarrassed to say it's a hill, a small incline, but we've come across this stand of of felled trees. So just tell me a bit about what's going on here.  Rob: Exactly. So all these stumps you can see scattered throughout the stand. This is the coppice, so it's cut down to just above base ground level there now and it will just regrow. So it's kind of a natural defence strategy that we're just exploiting. So it's it's been used to, it's, you know, since it evolved things like hazel especially, it‘s used to being browsed off by animals, the animals move on and then the tree just comes back. So it's like a phoenix strategy it comes back, back up again. We're just exploiting that. So we'll cut the tree to base and then we'll protect the regrowth from the browsing animals and then the tree will come again.  Adam: Right, and this is the work done by Joe?  Rob: Yeah, this yeah so this is the work done by Joe Weaver. Joe's just down the end there actually if you want to come and meet him.  Adam: OK, let's go have it let's go meet him. Ohh I've got stuck. OK, so Joe, this is all your handiwork.  Joe: It is, yes.  Adam: Tell me a bit about what what it is you do then.  Joe: So I run Wye Coppice CIC, we're a coppice contracting company and working with Woodland Trust, Natural Resource Wales and Wildlife Trusts throughout the Wye Valley and we're embarking on a project to restore areas of the Wye Valley to restore, do a coppice restoration project for for various organisations throughout the Wye Valley. The what you see, what you see here is about 1 1/2 acres of cut down trees with 7 or 8 standards.  Adam: What are standards?  Joe: The standards are the trees that we've left behind, so, so they're the large, they're the larger trees.  Adam: Oh, I see right. So you wouldn't be coppicing, these are very well established big trees, you don't coppice trees like that, you coppice quite small trees, don't you?  Joe: Yes, so all the small diameter understory trees we've cut down to ground level and and they will, they will resprout and grow back again. We can then come back in 10 years and recut them and have a healthy supply of continue, a continual healthy supply of pole wood.  Adam: And yeah, so what you're trying to get with coppicing is sort of quite it's quite small diameter wood, is that correct?  Joe: Yes, generally speaking, so this is a restoration project you can see this first cut is fairly large diameter. And so most of this will go to make charcoal but generally speaking after 10, maybe 15 years of growth, we'll have poles about sort of thumb size and maybe up to about 50 pence diameter.  Adam: Right. And that's ideal size, is it?  Joe: And that's a really good size for products like bean poles, hedging stakes and binders that go on the top of naturally laid hedging and then various other pole wood applications.  Adam: And and when you see a coppiced tree, evidence that it's been coppiced, there's, I'm trying to look over there, is is this where you see lots of different branches actually coming out from the stump in the ground? That's evidence that's been coppiced, cause it not just one thing grows, lots of them?  Joe: That's right. So you can, if you have one birch tree standing up, for example, you can cut that down to the ground, and when you come back in a few months' time, you'll notice about 5 or 6 shoots coming from that one stump at the bottom of the ground. So if we can protect that from deer browsing and rabbit browsing, then those stems, those five or six shoots will grow up into individual stems that we can then use use in pole wood products.  Adam: It's odd, isn't it that that happens, though, that you chop down one sort of main stem and you get four or five coming back, that's sort of an  odd natural thing to happen, isn't it?  Joe: It is. I think it's the tree's response to the stress of being cut down. So it sort of puts out a lot of it puts a lot of energy into regrowing new growth to try to survive because essentially these broadleaf species, trees, they're they're forever growing, you can cut them down they'll regrow, cut them down again, they'll regrow again. So it's a constant cycle of of regrowth.  Adam: Yeah it's it's like sort of, you know, thumbing their nose at you isn't it, going well, you cut me down well I'm gonna come back fivefold. You know, that's it's a sort of really funny response.  Joe: Indeed. But we can reap the benefits of that.  Adam: Yeah no, no, it's, I get, I get why that's good. And coppicing itself, that, and that's an ancient art, isn't it?  Joe: It has, certainly here in the Wye Valley it was practised at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to produce charcoal to power the Industrial Revolution until coal was iintroduced and so it happened for hundreds and hundreds of years here.  Adam: Right. So you think, do you think I mean there's no need for you to be an historical expert on the history of coppicing, but do you think that's the first big sign of it happening, sort of Industrial Revolution time?  Joe: Certainly around here it is yeah, and there's some of the coupes that we've cut, some of the coppice areas that we've cut here, we've found evidence of charcoal hearths. So you can see flat areas with bits of charcoal sort of sliding down the bank.  Adam: So that would be ancient sites in here, well, ancient, I mean, a few 100 years old of them actually making charcoal in this woodland?  Joe: Yes, in this woodland, throughout the Wye Valley all the way throughout the Wye Valley here, yes.  Adam: Amazing. Now so your company, it's not just a traditional sort of private business, it is a a different sort of form. Just explain how that works.  Joe: So we run a community interest company and that allows us to access grant funding if we need to. Essentially, we're run as a private business, but we are able to do community outreach work as well and that's part of what we do is to try to educate people about sustainable woodland management.  Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this then? Did you grow up as a boy going I want to chop down trees to make fences.  Joe: No, I didn't. I was walking in the Dolomites, I saw two stoats fighting and thought woodland life is for me *laughs*.  Adam: Ok, well, fantastic, never heard that, so inspired by the the battle between two stoats and the and and the Dolomites. That's fantastic, but a hard life, I would have thought to run a business to, I mean it's physical work anyway, but that's my perception from the outside, is it hard work?  Joe: It it can be very difficult, it does have its benefits. Obviously it keeps you fit and it gets you outside but yes, it is a hard life and and you know it's it's quite a technical job as well and the training is expensive so we're trying to introduce a training programme as well through through our through our business Wye Coppice to try to get young people interested in woodland management.  Adam: And do you find that people sometimes don't understand or or perhaps disagree with the fact that commerce and nature can be actually mutually beneficial? Do you find that an issue at all?  Joe: Yes I do. Yes, and we're we're we're always willing to stop and talk to dog walkers especially. Shortly after COP26, we had two dog walkers come past and shout at us for chopping the trees down, after sitting down with them and having a cup of tea, they bought a bag of charcoal off us.  Adam: Right ok very good there we are. You're bringing them round one by one, one by one, those customers are coming over. Well brilliant and we've had not a bad day. I thought I might have to put my wet weather gear on, but it's been it's been OK. Anyway well, that's brilliant thank you very much. That's been really interesting.  Joe: Thank you.  Adam: So we've got this stand of trees we're looking at Rob. A couple couple of oak. Did you say that was a lime?   Rob: That's a lime yeah.   Adam: That's the lime, that that one with lots of ridges in it is that the lime?  Rob: That's it, yeah.  Adam: That's the lime. So why have you left these trees? Is there particular reasons you didn't take these ones out?  Rob: Yeah. So these as you can see, these are all mature trees and so you don't take these decisions lightly. So when we coppice this sort of half a football field area here, there were thirteen of these big mature trees, trees you can barely get your hands around as they're so large, taken a couple of hundred years to grow, so you've got to be quite careful and quite selective, although you need the light. There's an old adage about oak trees, it goes something like this that to fell an oak tree you need three things. You need a good eye, a sharp axe and a cold heart because these trees, you know they've been grown and nurtured and developed, and they're impressive life forms. And so it's not something you do without considering it very carefully so so you can see a couple of trees in here which are a couple of oaks, good size, but they're full of ivy, very dense ivy and that's very good for wintering bats. For hibernation, or for potentially summer roosting.  Adam: So the bats would live just amongst the Ivy, they'd sleep amongst the ivy?  Rob: Yeah when it gets as dense as this, when it's really all knotted, entwined, there's lots of gaps behind it. You could stick your hand in and find little cavities and several species of bat, especially pipistrelle, they they will hibernate over winter in this kind of growth. So you really don't want to be disturbing this.  Adam:  Right. And and what what's, is there something specific about lime that wildlife like is there any particular wildlife?  Rob: Well, it's good for bees. It's good good good pollen.  Adam: You get beehives in there? Oh I see, the pollen itself is good.  Rob: They like the flowers. Yeah yeah it produces lots of the small leaved lime it produces lots of good flowers and and it will attract aphids which is actually a food source for for dormice in the summer. So they they feed on the feed on the lime sap, you know if you park your car under a lime tree, you'll get this very sticky kind of substance coming off it.  Adam: Yes, yeah, yeah. Of course it does. Yes. Yeah, yeah.  Rob: So that attracts aphids, attracts the dormice, it's good for insects who like nectar as well. So it's a it's a very valuable tree and and you know  Adam: So interesting it's it's not valuable commercially, it's valuable for nature.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite it's quite a special tree in the in the Wye Valley, it doesn't occur much outside this area naturally, and it's kind of an ancient woodland indicator in this part of the world, perhaps not officially, but it's a.  Adam: OK. Any other trees we've got here?  Rob: Yeah. The rest of the trees, then are beech.  Adam: Right and you've kept those why?  Rob: Yeah, because you can see if you look at this one here, it's got quite a few cavities in it at the base at the top, beech tends to do that. It tends to take, form little cavities, rot holes and ways in, and that's ways in for fungus and then they eat out and hollow the tree. So the potential for harbouring bats again is very high in these trees. Without sort of going into them, doing some invasive exploration, you can't tell, but it's it's very high potential for bats. So again, bats, all species of bats in this country are protected under law because they've had massive declines like a lot of woodland species. And so we'll do everything we can to retain that habitat.  Adam: It's it's the Field of Dreams, philosophy. You you build it and they will come.  Rob: Yeah, yeah. This as long as it stays there, it'll always be valuable as habitat and so at least then, there are future sort of veteran trees within this stand.  Adam: It is interesting you you've already, I mean, we've only done a short part of this walk so far, but you talked about whoever was managing this woodland 100 years ago knew what they were talking about. And I think that's fascinating that we don't know who that person is or who who they, who those people were. And in 100 years time, people won't know who you were p.sumably, but the the evidence of your work will be here. They'll go yeah, that was a good bloke who did all this and left us with something.  Rob: That's it, you you don't plant trees for yourself, you plant trees for the future generation so you know, I won't see the oaks I plant develop. I'll be dead long before they mature and it's the same for the person who did this. But you can see the ones we took out, the ones I took out and selected were tall and straight. And that means that the coppice is well managed, because there was enough light for the hazel in the understory to come up straight away. If you cut hazel to the ground and you protect it, in a couple of years, it'll be way above six, eight foot and it'll just continue to get higher and higher over the next few years. And what that does is it shades the stem of the oak and it prevents side branching. So you get this very tall initial first stem. And that's what you're looking for. And that's what these trees had. So this would have clearly been cared for and these trees have been selected, they were on a journey from the moment they were planted.  Adam: OK. And just on my journey of education about trees, how do, what, they're beech, I wouldn't be able to spot that myself, what tells you they're beech?  Rob: It's a smooth trunk. If you look at this one here now you can see I always think of them as sort of elephant legs. They're grey and they're tall and they're smooth and they quite often have sort of knobbly bits on the base like an elephant's foot. And if you go through a stand of pure beech, it looks like it looks like a stand of elephants' feet, really tall, grey stems and these big huge buttress roots.  Adam: Fantastic. I am never going to forget that and I will always think of elephants when I look at a beech, a brilliant brilliant clue. Thank you. Right. So where we off to now?  Rob: We'll walk around so you can see the top of the coupe and just see the extent of it and and then we'll walk back down perhaps and have a look at this oak.   Adam: Brilliant. Well we've come to the, over the brow of the hill and along this path, there's a tiny little path for me to walk, and on either side there's a carpet of green. And I think I know what this carpet of green is. Rob, what is it tell me?  Rob: This is wild garlic.   Adam: Yeah. This is the time of year, is it?  Rob: Yep, you can see the flower heads. Ramsons it's also called, it's just about coming into flower now.  Adam: Sorry they're called what?  Rob: Ramson.  Adam: Ramson. Is that the flower itself is called ramson, or is that?  Rob: Well, just the plant.  Adam: We call it wild garlic but it's it's real name is ramson?  Rob: Well some people call it ramson too.  Adam: Right OK. And I never, I mean I have never picked and eaten anything from a forest because I am sure I will kill myself, but all of this, I mean, I've seen loads of people do that, pick wild garlic and it's, I mean there's there's acres of the stuff here.  Rob: It can it can yeah any kind of wild plant comes with the caveats that you need to know what you're doing.  Adam: Yes, which which I don't.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny yeah, this site is quite well known for its ramsons, for its wild garlic carpets. This this is in response to something here, quite a sad thing actually. We're right next, you can probably hear the road noise there, we're right next to the main road from Monmouth into the Forest of Dean, Staunton Road there, and unfortunately, a lot of the trees along the road edge were big, big, mature ash trees. And they all had dieback and they were all dropping limbs and about to crush a car. And so, you know, we take that very seriously in terms of health and safety so the trees just along the road edge, we left the ones in the wood, just the road edge trees we had to do something about them, so they've either been reduced or felled and what that's done in this woodland where in the last 60 years, you have had very little management, like most woods, post war, very little has happened. So it becomes very high, very closed canopy, very dense. And what's happened, because of the ash felling is, you've got this pocket of light here and the ramsons have immediately responded to that. So this wasn't here last year. This carpet like this.  Adam: What so this is this is brand new?  Rob: This is brand new. It was the odd plant coming up every year, patches of it.  Adam: I'm shocked because this looks like something from the Wizard, if this was yellow, this would be we'd be in the middle of the Wizard of Oz set here, the yellow brick road. It just I mean it it's just a beautiful, winding, lush, dense path of wild garlic. It looks like it's been here forever.  Rob: And in a sense it it was. It was just waiting for the opportunity, waiting for that temporary disturbance caused by the ash felling. And so like with the coppicing, that's what we're trying to recreate essentially, is these temporary pockets of disturbance where you you break up the canopy, you get this flush of greenery and then until the trees recover it and regrow again. So you don't want this homogeneous block of woodland really. You want, you want variation, because that's the key to success for, for wildlife and biodiversity, different niches, different ages. If you look closely, you can see it's not just the garlic either. You can see wood anemone, you can see greater wood vetch, you can see little violets. So, you know, quite quite a lot of species are now taking advantage of this temporary light that the ash felling's produced.  Adam: It is a nice positive message, isn't it? Because ash dieback has been a real tragedy. But even in the midst of problems there are opportunities which nature comes back with, it's an optimistic sign.  Rob: There is and so this as I say, you know these these trees would have coppiced without us because you know when animals browse them, they they they they come back after that so all we're doing is sort of recreating these natural processes through the management of the woodland. A once in a lifetime storm might have knocked these ash out or a hurricane, something like that, could have felled the whole area and then temporary open space, the plants capitalise and then the wood comes back again, so we're just just mimicking what nature does anyway.  Adam: I'm going to take a photo of this, put it on my Twitter feed. It's fantastic. So we've just taken a little stop on this path of wild garlic. So over to the right is well, I thought it was a bird box, it's a large bird box. You tell me it's actually something very specific.   Rob: Yeah, this is a pine marten nest box cause there was there has been a big release of pine marten. Pine martens are native to this country. It's kind of like a large weasel that lives in the trees. That's a really bad way of describing it, but it's a it's a mustelid. It's a large, impressive, intelligent animal and they were sort of pressed to persecute, to extinction, with persecution in the past. But they're very important in these woods for regulating, you know, the biodiversity, they, they prey on the grey squirrel especially, and they'll regulate bird numbers like any predator does. So it's it's great to see them coming back and it's a success story actually, because a couple of years ago now there was a release programme where captive animals were put into the Forest of Dean which is just over that direction. And so we put up some boxes and monitored them and pine martens are moving back into this area now. Whether they're using the boxes or not, we're not entirely sure, but they are moving in, so it's a, it's a really good story. So we'll do whatever we can to sort of encourage them because we've we've lost a lot of this old growth woodland that we're trying to protect and so they haven't got the nest cavities, so temporarily we'll provide this habitat.  Adam: And over the other side of the little dip, there's another pathway and it looks like the bank has been cut away and it's very black so that it doesn't look quite natural. What's going on there?  Rob: Well the the track that's been put in there is exposed, an earlier industry, so that's that's a charcoal platform. See what is it about five, five metres in diameter. Sort of sort of circular and very, very thick layer of charcoal. A huge fire has been there, but that's that's lots and lots of fires, one on top of the other.  Adam: So this is this is not current, this is probably a couple of hundred years old?  Rob: I think the last burn in this woodland would have been before the Second World War.  Adam: Oh right, so not that old.  Rob: Well, I mean, if they were still burning, they would have had the odd one, but this probably dates to sort of the the height of the the periods of the the late 19th century. So this here, it's been buried and forgotten about. But it shows you as Joe was saying earlier, at one point this was a managed wood and quite a few woods in Wales if you look on the maps you'll see things like coed poeth, which probably roughly translates as sort of hot wood or or burning woods, very roughly, probably, which gives you, may may give you an indication that these woods were worked and if you came here, you would have probably seen people living in the woods with the charcoal, tinner and charcoal workers, especially in the the 19th century, would have moved in in the summer to do the charcoal production with their families.  Adam: Just living in a tent or something?  Rob: Living in on site yeah, because then you know you don't want to move products, move things twice. You know, it's it's an economic, so you bring your family in, you produce your product, and then you come out with it at the end of the season so it's very peaceful here today. You can hear the birds. It's great for wildlife, but it would have been a managed landscape and we're trying to introduce a little bit of that. Obviously not people living in the woodlands anymore, but there's space for both here within this woodland, a bit a bit of coppicing a bit of management and reserve areas.  Adam: And I mean, I I hadn't quite noticed it while we were walking, but now we're we're standing here on this green carpet, there is an overpowering smell of garlic, it's quite extraordinary. It's very fresh, you know, sometimes when you're in the kitchen and the garlic it's it's, it's not fresh, it's pungent, but this is, you know, it's mixed with the sort of cool air, it's a really lovely smell.  Rob: It's making me hungry, actually.  Adam: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I was thinking whether I should pick some for dinner.  Rob: Chop some up. Pasta sauce. It's lovely with that.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely. And and there's another one amongst this wild garlic, it's clock, what was it?  Rob: Yeah, this one here, it's the town hall clock or moschatel as it's known.  Adam: Town hall clock that's it. So just, what's the what's its proper name?  Rob: Moschatel. Well, that, that's it's another acronym, ah pseudonym really it's moschatel.  Adam: Moschatel.  Rob: Or town hall clock. I forget the Latin actually, to my shame.  Adam: Is moschatel the Welsh word for it, or it's not  Rob: No, it's not. It's a general general word, just a colloquial local term.  Adam: And why is it called the town hall clock?  Rob: Look you can see these four, the flowers have four sides to them, like an old town hall clock would.  Adam: Right, lovely. It's really quite, quite a rich path we're wandering down.  Rob: You see the the bluebells are out look just now, if you look up into the wood there you can see them. In Welsh they're called clychau'r gog, which is the cuckoo bell.  Adam: Wow. Cuckoo bell.  Rob: Because it comes out when the cuckoo comes. Apparently, the grant paid for like a fence, contractors to fence off that, this boundary here, stop the deer coming in from the Dean. To stop the wild pigs actually, pigs are a  Adam: You get wild pigs here?  Rob: They're a nuisance round here, yeah.  Adam: Wild pigs?  Rob: They call them, they're not really boar, because a boar will produce like, I don't know, maybe a litter of six, and these pigs will do 22.   Adam: Right. Blimey. And how big are they?  Rob: They look like boar.  Adam: So and boar can be quite violent, can't they, quite aggressive.  Rob: Yeah, they're sort of half breed, half pig, half boar. They're big animals, got a cute little stripey piglets, just like a boar does. But they, you know, they're exponential in their reproduction, so they're  Adam: And and they're around this wood?  Rob: They're here.  Adam: So do they cause a problem with eating or do they nibble on the new trees and stuff?  Rob: Yeah, yeah, well, they sort of rootle, I mean you want boar, because they were here originally. You want boar, like the deer, you want them in sustainable numbers, they're all sleeping now.  Adam: Do they come out at night?  Rob: They only come out at night yeah.  Adam: I'll have to return.  Rob: Yeah. I mean you'd see them if you went up to the top path up there.  Adam: We haven't done a night podcast. I think we should do some bats and.  Rob: You can do bats, if you wait, while you're waiting for the badgers to come out, you can do the bats. There's a few sites around here where you can watch them.  Adam: OK, well maybe  Rob: I'm sure there's other Trust sites where people know.  Adam: Maybe I'll come back.  Rob: One summer when I was doing my bachelor's degree, I was working in Llanelli in like a, just a café just to get some money. I was working with the local girls there, I'd been out surfing in Llangennith on the Gower the day before and I was like just telling her how the seals came in because they chased the mackerel in just beyond the surf line and I was sitting there and the water just boiled with the stench of of fish and mackerel and I looked around and two seals popped up and they were driving the mackerel into the back of the waves to hunt them. I was telling her this and she was like, what, you're telling me there's seals in the water here, in Llanelli, where? I said just in the Gower. Seals? Like seals seals, like live in water? I said there's seals there, yeah, they've always been there, we just don't value what's around us.  Adam: We don't notice it.  Rob: We don't notice because you can't see it, you don't see it, yeah.  Adam: It's interesting, isn't it, Attenborough has done a series recently on the UK and you go, you don't have to go to Africa or Latin America to see these things.  Rob: There you go. I was in West Wales last week in Aberaeron, and you can see bottlenose dolphins. Increasingly under threat there's that number of point but yeah, but they're there. You can see the seals, you can see them all around us, yeah. This is doing well.  Adam: Well, I'm going to have to leave our little trip down the Wye Valley with some rather unexpected chat about seals and bottlenose dolphins and a promise to return one dark night to meet some bats. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Kevin Roy, Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO based in Beverly, Massachusetts   Kevin Roy is the Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO, a full-stack digital ad agency, best known for search engine optimization but also providing paid media, Google AdWords, Facebook, and programmatic display services. Over the years the team has developed a number of internal systems to keep up with the work, including 24x7 online ordering system that funnels agency orders to his team and creates a workflow. Kevin says the agency always has more web development work than it can “keep up with” but over the past 15 years, it has always been a “loss leader.”  The agency's motto is “Page 1 or you don't pay.” Kevin explains that the agency does not guarantee the agency's services will get a client on Page 1. It's about whether the client pays. Unless we get our clients on Page 1 for the keywords that they pick, they don't pay us. If we don't get them ranked, they don't pay us. If we get them ranked and lose their rankings, they don't pay us. We have to get them ranked and keep them ranked Part of the “secret sauce” of the agency's success is a comprehensive understanding of Google's webmaster tools and its ever-changing rules. Websites are optimized “based on a few very important factors.” The agency has an 80-step process, which is frequently updated to adapt to Google's policy changes. As a recent example of a new Google requirement, Kevin cites desktop viewability. The agency has integrated this requirement into the websites it manages and tested the sites to ensure they meet “all those metrics.” Kevin warns against using “tricks” to “game the system” to get a site ranked. He says, “Google is always going to be bigger and have more resources” and will eventually figure out the “game.” “That's not a position you want to put your client in,” he says. He believes it is more important to “just try to provide quality and relevance” and then adds, “It does take people a little longer to get ranked when you follow the rules, but it also is harder to lose your ranking when you do.” When Kevin decided to start his agency, he offered to build websites and run SEO for three successful businesspeople on two conditions:  that they not tell anyone that he “did it for free” and that, if they were happy with his work, they would recommend him. The strategy worked. Today, the agency is 100% referral and “business just keeps coming in.” At the beginning of client engagement, GreenBananaSEO provides a free website audit and recommendations based on what it perceives to be a client's problem. Kevin says the agency is a “digital executioner” with an SEO division and a paid media division (focused on key performance indexes/conversions). He says the agency does “almost everything on a screen that's paid” including OTT (over-the-top) television, programmatic, geofencing, geotargeting, and addressable media. No billboards. No direct mail. “It's all paid media,” he explains, and the agency is “hired by people to make their messaging and their branding work.” Kevin can be reached on his personal page at: ijustmetkevin.com.or on his agency website at: greenbananaseo.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and my guest today is Kevin Roy, Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO based in Beverly, Massachusetts. Welcome to the podcast, Kevin.  KEVIN: Hey, thanks for having me. ROB: Great to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about GreenBanana and what you specialize in? KEVIN: We don't sell bananas. GreenBananaSEO is a full-stack digital ad agency, and we're primarily known for our search engine optimization, but we also have a significant portion of our clients run paid media, Google AdWords, Facebook, programmatic display. One of the reasons that a lot of people know us for search engine optimization is our mottol, which is “Page 1 or you don't pay.” So unless we get our clients on Page 1 for the keywords that they pick, they don't pay us. If we don't get them ranked, they don't pay us. If we get them ranked and lose their rankings, they don't pay us. We have to get them ranked and keep them ranked. And the big secret is there's no secret. You just do what you're supposed to do. Google publishes their webmaster tools. They're not fun to read. [laughs] We read them and we optimize people's sites based on a few very important factors that I could always touch on later. But you don't try to game the system. You just try to provide quality and relevance, and you magically rank. ROB: How do you think about socializing that knowledge across your team? Some people who are there might have an intrinsic knowledge of what it takes, they've digested the notes on what Google likes, what Google doesn't like. But somebody new comes in or somebody's new to the industry – how do you think about putting them on the path of not looking for tricks and of doing the right thing? KEVIN: That's a great question. We have a process. We have an 80-step process and we teach our members to follow that process. But we also have a hierarchy of SEO director-level knowledge that are always going and looking for the latest changes that Google has published that they made and how we have to adapt our process to that. Something that just came out recently was desktop viewability. It's something that Google is amping people for if they don't have the right desktop viewability, so we have to make that part of it, go in and test that, make sure their site is hitting all those metrics and adapting the site to that. ROB: That makes sense. SEO has a long history, and it's been through – you're making reference to tips and tricks, and there were all these conversations about “secrets.” There were tools people would provide that would tell you these secrets. Did you always come at it from the non-secrets angle, or was that an evolution and there were some tricks that once were kind of helpful, but have really attenuated as Google has evolved its algorithm? KEVIN: The thing that's always stuck in the back of my mind is how massive Google is. There are tricks and things that you can do to game the system and try to get the site ranked, but Google is always going to be bigger and have more resources, and they are ultimately going to figure that out, and that's not a position you want to put your client in. I always say, it's not if you get caught, it's when you get caught. So if you decide that's the game you want to play, then buckle up. Maybe that's something you want to do, but that's not what we do. It does take people a little longer to get ranked when you follow the rules, but it also is harder to lose your ranking when you do. It's a lot more beneficial. And our clients are real businesses that are really trying to promote their work, and they can't afford to get caught for something we did. ROB: Page 1, that's a great target. Are there ever keywords I would want to target where you would look at me as a client and say, “You know, I get it, but that's a no. We can't guarantee that”? Is there a target that's too high? KEVIN: There are two parts to that answer. Number one, we don't guarantee ranking. We guarantee that if we can't get you there, you don't pay us. So when people call and say, “Hey, GreenBanana, we need to get on Page 1 in a month for these keyword phrases,” I'm like, “Great. We have an AdWords campaign for that. I can guarantee you'll get on Page 1 with a Google AdWords campaign because we're going to bid higher than your competitors for that.” But there are certain things Google takes into consideration, like domain authority, how long the site has been living, how much content is on the site, and that a lot plays into how successful we think we're going to be before we start the campaign. So if you started a brand new dating website today and said, “I want to get on Page 1 for dating,” I would say, “Okay, it's going to take us about 18 months to get you ranked. This is what it's going to cost when we do get you ranked. Sign this contract.” And you'll probably say, “I can't afford this.” [laughs] Because eHarmony and Match.com and Plenty of Fish and those people have teams and teams of SEO people. So yes, we can do it, but a lot of times if it's a super broad term that is hyper, hyper-competitive, like – everyone calls us for mesothelioma. SEOs have been working on that for 15 years, so we have 14½ years of catch-up to do. It's going to be expensive. ROB: That all makes sense. Where did this whole thing come from, Kevin? What made you decide to start GreenBanana? KEVIN: I used to be the web director for a company called eRoom Technology that ended up getting bought by EMC. It's a workspace collaboration, kind of like – I don't know if you use Basecamp or Teams. ROB: I know all the stuff. ClickUp and so many things now. KEVIN: Yeah, all those collaboration spaces. The company got bought out, and I had a team of people under me, and next thing you know I was doing about two hours' worth of work doing web edit updates and going to the gym for the rest of the time and realizing my job was not going to last long. When my boss got let go, I went off and decided to start my own company. I got a good severance package, and I went around and found three people in the area that were really good, that I thought were successful businesspeople, and I said, “I'm going to build you a website for free. I'm going to do your SEO. You're not going to tell anybody that I did it for free, and if you're happy with it, you can recommend me.” That's legitimately how the business started. ROB: Wow. KEVIN: Two of them worked out. One of them, that company either moved – I can't even remember what happened. But two of them recommended me, and that started the spiral. To this day, I spend my time – we don't have an outreach program. We don't even do our own SEO. If you look at our SEO, it could be a lot better. I know the audience can't see this, but the left-hand side of this sheet, there's 30 RFPs that I had to write last week, and we're 100% referral. We just try to help people. We'll do free audits for people and say, “This is what we think you should do. Your problem may not be able to be solved by SEO” – for example, if it's a product that no one's ever heard of before, SEO Is not what you want. It's going to be programmatic or social to get in front of people that might like your product. So we spend our days doing that, and miraculously, business just keeps coming in. It's been like that for 15 years. ROB: When you mention RFP, is that an expression of interest from a client who needs a proposal, or more of a formal RFP, competitive…? KEVIN: That's a good question. I don't write RFPs. Actually, I did. I wrote two and spent weeks doing them and no one ever called me back, so I don't write RFPs. [laughs] People calling us and asking for quotes, that's what I call RFPs. ROB: Understood. So, you're turning around a proposal, someone says, “What does this look like?”, you do a little bit of discovery, “I want to rank for this, I want to rank for that,” you turn it around and tell them, “This is what it looks like.” KEVIN: Yeah. We do an audit and then come and tell them, “Hey, is SEO the right thing for you? If it is, we'll help you pick some keyword phrases.” Then we send it to them, there's usually a little back and forth, and then we decide if we want to move forward or not. ROB: You just mentioned programmatic. I know earlier you mentioned not just SEO, but paid search, and then you mentioned social, which I didn't hear you mention earlier. Scope of services is always an interesting conversation. Where do you draw the line? Are you doing paid social? Do you do organic social? Where do you say yes, where do you say no? KEVIN: It's all paid media. We do almost everything on a screen that's paid, like OTT, which is connected to television, programmatic, geofencing, geotargeting, addressable. What we don't do is anything print. We don't do billboards. We don't do direct mail. People hire us because we're digital executioners. We don't even do – if someone calls and says, “I want the sexiest branding of anybody,” that's not what we do. We're hired by people to make their messaging and their branding work. We have an SEO division and we have a paid media division. The paid media team is solely focused on KPI or key performance indexes or conversions. When someone comes to work for GreenBanana as our paid media side, especially if they're from another agency, I tell them, if you're really, really good at this job, you can sell reporting for maybe two to three months. But you can sell conversions and leads forever. So everything that you're doing, you should absolutely figure out in the very beginning. We don't start a campaign until we figure out what the goal of the client is, and then you take the media that you're serving and drive it to that goal and try to maximize it. Sometimes social, like Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, will outperform Google AdWords, or programmatic will outperform Twitter. A lot of our clients will come to us with, “Hey, I want to spend $5,000 in social and $2,500 in AdWords,” and we find out after running a campaign for 30 to 60 days, “You know what? AdWords is getting you double the amount of leads for the budget. We recommend you switch and pull your money from social into that.” And they always say yes, because the client doesn't care who we're giving money to; they just care about the success of the company. So that's how we do that. Our account execs are really well-versed in every single medium, and they're medium agnostic. They don't care if budget gets pulled from one medium to another, even if it affects our margin at GreenBanana, because our job is to get the campaigns to be most successful. Those are the clients that increase budget, that stay with us forever. We have a plumber that has been with us for 13 of our 15 years, and they went from spending $750 a month to $40,000 a month over that long period of time because the campaigns that we're working on are producing results. ROB: Right. It's an engine for their business now and would be a fairly terrifying thing to switch out, I think. Also hard to get too different – even if they wanted to test out a competitive firm, it's a little hard because then you're bidding on some of the same stuff, I would think. KEVIN: Oh yeah, that's a great point. You can't run two Google campaigns because if you have two firms running two Google campaigns, Google's only going to show one, and the one that's showing is going to actually be more expensive than the one that isn't. You just outbid yourself. So if you're a company ever trying to pit one agency against the other, don't have them run the same medium. Don't have them both run Facebook or both run AdWords. It's a terrible idea. ROB: That sounds like a good way to spend $80,000 a month instead. KEVIN: It's a good way to blow a lot of money, yeah. ROB: You mentioned you had this initial flywheel in the firm, three test subjects and some referrals, and still growing and spinning it by referrals. What was the moment – your title is co-founder, so where else did this start, and when did it start to expand beyond the co-founder territory? KEVIN: It got to a point where I was – we do web development in-house. We never talk about it because we have more than we can keep up with, and for some reason, in 15 years it's never been profitable. It's always this loss leader. So I was doing a lot of web development, and I was outsourcing the stuff that I couldn't keep up with. The outsource company that was local called me and said, “We can't keep up with the demand that you're sending us. Here's a guy we recommend you send some of this stuff to.” His name is Mark, and he's my business partner now. He and I really hit it off, and I said, “Let's just get in this together because we have complementary skillsets.” So that was the co-founder piece. When it went beyond it, we didn't have any money when we started. We didn't have any private equity. No angel investors. We would save a little and then hire an employee, and save a little and hire an employee. If you look at the trajectory of GreenBanana, we've always grown, but it's been a slow, steady organic growth to where we are right now. There are companies that have surpassed us that haven't done that, and you could argue that's a great way to do it, just got a big influx of cash and hired a team. But we said, no, we're just going to keep reinvesting the money we make and build and grow and learn. As we grow, we build. We have internal systems that we've built because we have a lot of other agencies that are clients of ours. We built an online ordering system so at midnight, an agency can put in all the orders and have it funnel to my team and create a workflow. But that didn't happen overnight. It took us a year and a half to build it. ROB: Right. You mentioned this commitment to steady growth. It can be tempting to push the fast-forward button. How, over this time, have you resisted the temptation to – whether it's to take a buyout and take some growth there, whether it's to take in some money and boost some hires – how have you been thinking about that as you proceed and stuck to the path of building growth organically? KEVIN: That's a great question. In the beginning, no one was coming and asking us, “Here's a bunch of money to go do something.” So that was easy. We did have some periods that we got a lot more customers than we could handle and we made mistakes. So that also made us nervous, and making sure that if someone just handed us a blank check, we probably wouldn't know what to do with it. If the opportunity came where someone said, “Here's a bunch of money and here's the 10 agencies that we've grown exactly like yours,” that would be a lot more attractive. Now that we're at the revenue that we're at, we're actually getting people that are asking us for that. But we haven't gotten anything attractive enough to have us say, “We'll give up half the business for that.” That's actually the answer. The answer is nothing's been attractive enough. ROB: That seems to be the case in services in general. I hear, at least, quite often that you're measuring the value of the business based on EBITDA, based on your actual earnings, and maybe you can back out some expenses that have been loaded onto the business, that kind of thing. But really, if you're healthy on EBITDA, then the business needs some cash to grow and some cash to distribute, and what's the hurry on the sale? The terms aren't usually enough to make you say, “I couldn't make that much profit in three years.” KEVIN: Right. Exactly. That seems to be what's happening. Also, I don't think digital's going away. I do think that certain mediums may come and go, but we're medium agnostic, so if Facebook blows up next month, it's going to stink, but we can shuffle. ROB: As you reflect on this journey so far – I guess you're about 12 to 13 years in – what are some things you've learned on this journey that you wish you could go back and tell yourself to do differently? It sounds like you wouldn't tell yourself to go take a check and get bought out, but I imagine there are some things you would consider doing differently along the way. KEVIN: I think a lot of it is psychological for me. If I could go back and say to 12 or 13 years ago Kevin, I'd say part of being an entrepreneur is there's a lot of times where you're taking three steps forward and two steps back. But the two steps back are never that bad. I've spent countless sleepless nights thinking of the worst thing that could possibly happen, and it's never happened. Not even kind of happened. It's legitimately never happened. So, if I could go back, I'd say stop worrying about that and focus on all the positive things because that thing's never going to happen. And if it repeatedly hasn't happened in 13 years, it's not a coincidence. So I think that's something I wish I knew a long time ago. But it's also something that I continue to wrestle with because it's kind of burned in the back of your brain. ROB: Absolutely. I needed that reminder from some other entrepreneurs yesterday. You have that moment, you have that day, where something small bad does happen. We had a job offer out that I was really excited about, and the last eight offers we put out were all accepted, and this person said no. I was like, oh man, that was not the answer I wanted. But same thing – you lose a client, but along the way, you've planted those seeds so that six months from now, you're going to say, “That was a speedbump. That was not the end of the world.” We grew from there. A lot of folks said their experience has been they hired somebody better right after they got a no. It's that long perspective, and I think planting the seeds and knowing you've done the work along the way. KEVIN: Right. There's a great quote – I don't even know who said it, but you don't find a way to go around the problem; you find a way to go through it. It seems to work out. We had an employee that stole almost a quarter of our business, left with that, and we made it back in a year. It's honestly the best thing that's ever happened. So things like that, at the time, horrible. And then I wouldn't change a thing now. ROB: [laughs] You might give them 50 cents to go do it. KEVIN: Seriously, yeah. ROB: They took maybe some customers that were more challenging to manage or maybe more loyal to a person than to the process. There's a lot to think about there. KEVIN: Yeah, and it makes you sit and evaluate and say, “What things do I have to do and what do I need and what are the things that are necessary?”, and you end up becoming better. That's what entrepreneurs do. People that aren't entrepreneurs don't understand it because those people are the ones that won't take that risk and say, “I've got to go. I can't do this. I can't handle this stress.” The entrepreneurs say, “I've got to figure out how to deal with it, because this is it.” ROB: Right. Kevin, as you look ahead to GreenBanana, the future of GreenBanana and the practice areas you're in – you mentioned maybe some channels go away, maybe there are some ways you're thinking about shifting the practice – what does the future look like? What are you excited about? KEVIN: I'm excited about – technology is increasing. Whether you find this good or bad, creepy or not, the amount of data you have on client behavior is only getting better and enabling us to be more accurate in helping our clients hit their conversions. So that evolution is really exciting. With the products that we have, like Google launching GA4 – they already launched it, but GA4 is better than Universal Analytics in how you can see data. Those things inside the products are great, and there's also all these other new products that are really exciting. I'm personally really excited about decentralized finance and crypto. We're trying to figure out a way to accept crypto payments. It's a pain in the butt to figure it out, but little things like that are fun for me, and I think as long as you're excited about learning about new tech, there's always going to be a business for a digital agency. ROB: That's interesting on the accepting crypto side. Even for existing financial applications – we had a client who wanted to pay us their discovery budget on I think Venmo, and getting a business account up and running on these services from a KYC perspective, instead of a personal account – half the time it's like they never even thought about it. There's a lot ahead of us on that front, I think. KEVIN: Yeah. That's the part we're having trouble with. If you want to send me crypto to my crypto personal wallet, it's easy. We can do it literally right now. But getting it into the business, getting it into QuickBooks, getting it to my accountants – I was like, whatever. Future Kevin will work on that. [laughs] ROB: Is there any particular business that you're seeing, some type of business that is perhaps most open to paying in crypto? What's that look like? KEVIN: None of the current businesses we're working with – I won't say none of them, but most of them wouldn't consider it. It's just something I'm personally interested in and I think it's going to happen. ROB: Absolutely. A lot of these things took some time, and then it's daily happenings. Pulling a little deeper into the topic, what are you seeing in defi and crypto? What direction excites you the most? Sometimes we're placing bets; sometimes we're just thinking about placing emotional bets with where we place our attention. What's drawing you as the most tangible next few things that are going to happen? KEVIN: I'm invested in crypto. The things that have done the best for me are Bitcoin and Ethereum. I do read some other defi newsletters, but full disclosure, none of them have done great. But I haven't really gone crazy into it. I spend most of my time on my company rather than researching that. I think the ease of transaction and the transparency of the transaction is so important, and I think that is what is going to – once people start to get more comfortable with decentralized finance, the ability to send money back and forth where there's a trackable ledger of it, I think that is really going to change business. I mean, for us to get a check from someone, for us to send money back and forth, for us to do an ETH transaction, it's our billing department on a phone call with someone, it's back and forth, it's waiting for 24 hours. Wallet to wallet is a QR code and a button, and it's there, and the ledger's there. I really think that's going to start to change the world if people can let go of the fact that they're not comfortable with it. ROB: There's a lot there and there's a lot to learn from all at the same time. Some of this stuff is kind of hard, some of the fees are kind of high, but you also see – I was just out at South by Southwest in Austin, and one of the most visible activations there was for an NFT collection called Doodles. They'd let you in the activation with your SXSW badge, but they'd let you in the VIP line if you could prove that you were a holder of a Doodles NFT. Which is about 12 ETH, so it's… KEVIN: Yeah, that's a lot of money. ROB: Absolutely. Looking at that, someone was like, “Could you just buy it and sell it?” I said, it depends on whether the thing's been pumped by the conference. If it's pumped by the conference, you're going to lose 2 ETH just because you bought it at a spiky time. That's bad news. KEVIN: I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the value of an NFT because it's a picture on a screen that everybody can take. I know you pay and it's yours, but you and I could take screenshots of each other right now. It's hard to tell who owns it. ROB: In this case they actually were validating ownership against the blockchain. To get in, they were actually authenticating the ownership. But definitely hard right now. KEVIN: Exactly. It's a currency that's validated, but it's like, what's the value of having that picture other than getting an entrance? I understand that piece of it, but sticking it on your computer and saying “I own this,” like the picture behind me – it's not really worth anything. I'm still trying to wrap my head around NFTs, and that's my fault because I know that they're really taking off. ROB: There's a lot to go there. Even in the judgment of art. I can buy art at IKEA or I can buy art at Sotheby's, and those are two very different things. But I can buy art at IKEA that probably looks like something I could buy at Sotheby's. The value there is subjective, and where it lands, who knows? KEVIN: Yeah, exactly. I heard this really interesting podcast about a guy that was spending – he's a wine collector, and some of those bottles of wine are hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he said, “I drank one and it really wasn't that good.” [laughs] “You can get a comparable wine for $28.” ROB: Absolutely, or $3 at Trader Joe's, right? KEVIN: It's like, is that $400,000 better than the $3 one? [laughs] Or is it 15 times better? ROB: Kevin, when people want to find and connect with you and with GreenBanana, where should they go to find you? KEVIN: I used to lose my business card all the time, so I bought ijustmetkevin.com. ROB: Nice. KEVIN: That'll take you to my page. Or you can just go to greenbananaseo.com ROB: That is excellent. Kevin, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your experience, your knowledge, things you've learned. I think we're all better for it. Thank you very much. KEVIN: I appreciate your time. This was wonderful. Thank you. ROB: Best wishes to you and the team. Take care. KEVIN: Thanks. Take care. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

John Limotte, Founder and CEO of Mustache Agency, started his career as a film producer making indie and arthouse films. When that business became more difficult (impacted by, among other things, the rise of the internet), John looked for a way to use his skills doing something that looked more like a real business. He saw potential in the field of marketing for “more cinematic . . . epic . . . more longform storytelling.” So, he started a very small video production agency and took jobs one by one to see where things would go. Ten years later, Mustache is a creative content agency with client services spread across three lines: integrated campaigns, video production and post-production, and social. The core of the agency's work is content and digital content, with a focus on storytelling and creating epic, engaging video content . . . doing high-quality, cost-effective work. Even from the early days, the agency produced hundreds of videos a month. The client “playlist” includes such “big names” as Facebook, Google, Netflix, Amazon, a lot of tech disruptors, Instacart, Grammarly, and YouTube. When Mustache works with Facebook and Instagram, the agency gets the “inside scoop” on their best practices, new products, what's working on the platform, and how to tailor content for the platform. John says the agency is learning from the platforms “how to hack them,” but then admits that the only real hack is creating “really good, sticky content.” Working on those platforms has increased the agency's effectiveness and provided the opportunity to work with the digital disruptor brands that heavily advertise on those platforms.  John says the key to his agency's success is “hiring good people who are passionate, have expertise, and know what they're doing; keeping the focus on high level storytelling; and demanding that whatever content goes out still moves the needle.” He says, “There is no hack. There is no foolproof system.”  You need to think about who your audience is, you need to think about who you are, and you have to think about what you want them to do and the best way to get them there, and you need to do that . . . through content and storytelling. You still need a hook. You still need to make people laugh. You still need to tell a story, have a journey. Even as the formats and the aspect ratios change, those things remain the same.  Mustache has never focused on a single vertical. John sees a lot of upside for his business across a wide variety of verticals. Why? John says industries today are evolving in the direction of increased video content . . . especially since COVID. He sees another upcycle and no end in the demand for and consumption of content.  John is best reached on his agency's website at: mustacheagency.com. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by John Limotte, Founder and CEO of Mustache Agency based in Brooklyn, New York. Welcome to the podcast, John. JOHN: Thank you, Rob. Nice to be here. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Would rather be up in New York, but we can talk about that. Why don't you start off by telling us about Mustache and where the firm excels? JOHN: Sure. Mustache is a creative content agency based in Brooklyn. We essentially offer three lines of services: integrated campaigns, video production and post-production, and social. Our clients are pretty evenly spread across those buckets. But at the core of everything we do is content, video content. We came up as a video production company focused on storytelling and creating epic, engaging video content. Eight or ten years later, depending on when you count the start date, our focus remains the same and it continues to be what we do best. ROB: It seems like you've really had the privilege to work with some clients that others would dream of. How do you make that jump from starting with – I don't know if it's you and a camera or what it looks like, but how do you start punching so heavyweight to work with some of these big names? You can run off whoever you're comfortable talking about. JOHN: Our first client was a plaintiff's law firm in the Bronx, and we were doing some pretty tactical digital marketing and $1,000 videos for him. We dubbed him “the King of the Bronx” and did a lot of man on the street videos of him because he was a true man of the people. From there, it's evolved greatly. These days we're working with everyone from Facebook, Google . . . Netflix is a big client of ours, Amazon, a lot of tech disruptors, Instacart, Grammarly . . . we do a lot of work with YouTube. How we got there is a great question. I wouldn't say that it was any sort of thought-out path. Some of it is just, I think, good fortune. But from the beginning we were focused on content and digital content, storytelling, video storytelling, and just doing that really, really well and cost effectively in a model that was outside the traditional agency model back in say 2012. With that focus, a lot of these companies just found us. We did some viral video campaigns, some YouTube campaign. We were doing some episodic web content that got some attention. In a lot of cases, being in the content business led to the work proliferating because we were creating, even from the early days, hundreds of videos a month. From there, word got out and eventually we found ourselves working with some of these bigger companies. I should say those are not retainer clients; we would be at an entirely different scale. These are all giant organizations that work with tons of companies in different niches and different capacities. So, it's the biggest companies in the world, but sometimes they're just small little campaigns that they hire us for, and we've been really fortunate that they do. One thing I'll add about that, too, is that for us it's created a kind of virtuous cycle. When we're working with Facebook and Instagram and we're talking about best practices, new products, what's working on the platform, and how to tailor content for the platform, we're learning from the platforms themselves how to hack them, really – although the truth is, there's not a lot of hacks except creating really good sticky content. But there are a lot of things you can do that we learn from them, and those make us more effective. I think that led to more work with the digital disruptor brands that are doing most of their advertising on those platforms. ROB: It's interesting because Instagram really has the visibility to look at every video that's made, just about, and decide who they want to work with. It's a pretty high compliment. One thing I want to pull on a little bit is that you mentioned even early on having hundreds of videos in flight at a time. That sounds overwhelming to me. I wonder how you're able to keep track of all of that. I know a bunch of people who have started video agencies, and not many of them that I know have crested that 10-20 person range. So, I wonder if there's some key in how you manage that scale and beyond that has helped you make it over the hump. JOHN: I will say that scaling great creative at good pricing is the bane of our existence. It's a challenge that you never win, in a way. It's never over. There's always the quest to do more and to do it better and to do it more cost effectively. I've never had that feeling of like “Oh, we cracked it. We're good.” It's just something that you have to continually be working at. We have a lot of smart people who spend a lot of time thinking on this problem and what kind of systems, what kind of processes. But again, one of my themes is that there's no hack. There's no foolproof system. There's not some proprietary technology that we've developed. At the end, at the core of it is hiring good people who are passionate and have expertise and know what they're doing, keeping the focus on high level storytelling, and demanding that whatever content goes out still moves the needle. People often ask me why we never focus on a particular vertical because we've always moved across verticals. I think for us, the question is easy because our focus has always been content, storytelling – just focused on that. We've built up a lot of expertise around that capability. At the same time, as I said, we're always working on the best workflow, the best system, the best structure. We've done a couple of reorgs over time as we gain new insight. We've also benefited from the fact that it's been organic. It's not like we started Day 1 making 100 videos per client per activation. I think much like the industry itself, it started with a TV 30 and then a couple of cutdowns, and the business has grown from there in terms of iteration and scale. We've had the good fortune of growing – from there it was 10 deliverables and then it was 100. Every client is different. Every circumstance is different. It's not like you need 100 videos or you need 10. But generally speaking, the numbers have gone up, and they've gone up steadily so that we've been able to adapt and adjust as the volume and the needs increase.  ROB: I think I have an idea, but for all of us, including me, what is a cutdown? JOHN: Basically just taking a 30-second spot or a 60-second spot, whatever the longer form of the content might be, and cutting it into smaller pieces – 15s, 6s, and so on. ROB: Got it. I think we've all seen that and now we know what to call it. It seems like one key may also be your involvement on the social side. With that as a line of service, it seems like that would give you insights into not just the overall raw performance of the content, but more specifically, you can get into the metrics and look at the performance of the content with the audience it was intended for as well as uncovering unexpected audiences. It seems like that would feed back into strategy. Are the platforms giving you the metrics you need to draw that sort of insight? JOHN: The clients are mostly pretty proprietary in terms of the platforms themselves, but you're able to track in social and digital performance yourself and see how things are working. When we're working with brand clients, often they'll share with us the data and the results, so we're also able to see from that. So yeah, it's been a tremendous feedback loop. In some ways we came into this with a very non-data, very intuitive approach, like “What is an insight that feels resonant? Let's tell a story about that in a way that to us feels compelling and impactful.” You never lose that eye towards the content, but then once you start working in social and you start getting more digital execution and getting that information about what's working and what isn't and you start being able to test different things and different hypotheses about content, then you're approaching it from both sides. You're using both your intuitive instincts around content and storytelling and you're able to look at the data. I think that's a pretty powerful one-two punch. ROB: For sure. John, if we rewind a little bit, go back in time even before that plaintiff attorney client, what was it that led you to take this jump and start the firm in the first place? Where did Mustache come from? JOHN: It was born somewhat of desperation, to be honest. I was a film producer back in another life and I was making indie films and arthouse films, the type of things that would go to Sundance and South by Southwest and hopefully find a distributor for it. I loved the business, but it was changing and becoming more difficult. Actually, with the rise of the web, that began to threaten that business in some respects, or at least in the form that I knew it. So, I started thinking about where else I could apply my skills. Is there something that more resembles an actual business? Film has this magical fantasy element to it where you're inspired by a story and you make it and hope that the world loves it. I was certainly drawn to the fact that there is a business that rewards creative and content and needs good stories. Especially at the time, in 2010, it felt like there was a real opportunity for more cinematic and epic storytelling, more longform storytelling. There was some minor identification of an opportunity and a shift. I think it was that combination of me looking for something new, seeing that there might be a place where this thinking might resonate, and then just starting in a very small and taking it job by job way and seeing where it went. ROB: It seems like very good timing. All of these video platforms emerged, and coming from a different perspective, you kind of got to take on being a video agency digital-first, where people probably had more TV experience. It's really interesting timing there, especially as all these video platforms have come around. I think we all know the key video platforms that we talked about and how Twitter has become, to an extent, a video platform, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, etc., and then TikTok is in that conversation as well. Is there anything emerging that maybe is not quite in the mainstream conversation that we need to think about? JOHN: I'll say this. As I think about where the business is going, I feel somewhat stunned by the level of change that I think is upon us and the level of acceleration in technology and platform adaption and adoption. Every industry is moving towards, and evolving very quickly, especially since COVID, in a way that supports and needs more video content. If you think about obviously e-comm and omnichannel thinking around e-comm, if you think about the medical business, healthcare, it's becoming online and more digital. Work from home, IoT, driverless cars are going to need content inside them. I don't have my eye on anything new so much as trends that we've been tracking for a while just exploding, an inflection point on those trends, and the need for content. I think a lot of people think content's had a great run. People have been saying content is king for 15 years now, it's a cliché. But the truth is, I feel like we're ready for another upcycle in the demand for and consumption of content. I just see no end there. So that's our focus. Does that answer the question? It's not exactly something new, but it's what I'm thinking about. ROB: I think so. One thing that strikes me as you get into it is the absolute explosion of different formats and lengths. When you talked about the cutdowns earlier, it used to be a 30-second ad was normal and you knew the aspect ratio. But now you have square, portrait, landscape. Do you want 5, 10, 30 seconds? Are you injecting this ad in the middle of somebody playing a game? Where is this thing going? It seems like that continues to shift. You don't have to worry about Quibi, but you might have had to on ads that had to be able to be rotated to different aspect ratios. JOHN: We had to. Quibi was a big client of ours. [laughs] So yeah, we were very much up in their business and we did social for them. We've been thinking about these things for a while, and I think you're right; it's sometimes overwhelming to think about the proliferation of formats and lengths. Two things I'll say about that. One is that the core of what we do remains unchanged. You need to think about who your audience is, you need to think about who you are, and you have to think about what you want them to do and the best way to get them there, and you need to do that, at least for us, through content and storytelling. You still need a hook. You still need to make people laugh. You still need to tell a story, have a journey. Even as the formats and the aspect ratios change, those things remain the same. At a certain point you realize that it's helpful in some ways because you're like, okay, it hasn't changed that much. We're still doing essentially the same thing; we just need to make sure we have the expertise we need across these platforms, whether it's Twitter or Amazon, so that we know how they speak on those platforms. It also brings me to one other thing I like to talk about. A lot of times you'll hear people say with the amount of content becoming so overwhelming, people's attention spans have shrunk and people don't have time or interest in anything longer form. What you used to have to tell in 60 seconds and then 30 and then 15 and then 6, now you have to tell in 3 or the blink of an eye. I don't think that's true. I think there is an element of having to use the right format and length, the right platform, but you just need to think harder about how to make your content break through, about a hook, about something to get people's attention. Sometimes and in some ways the answer might be longer form content. I certainly reject the notion of a race to the briefest, shortest form content possible. ROB: Certainly understood on that. I've heard some conversations on how quickly you have to hook someone. Maybe they'll stick around, but do you have to set the hook sooner to earn the rest of their attention? JOHN: Well, that's true. It's true because people's thumbs are moving. Attention spans have changed. I do think that notion is very true. You do have to hook them because otherwise you'll lose them. ROB: I appreciate that I think you're holding strong to the value of, as you mentioned, storytelling, of creativity. It reminds me a little bit of these rules in the world of standup comedy. I think you're supposed to make them laugh every 6 seconds, and if you don't, then they'll not like you, and if you do, then they probably will like you. But then you have Dave Chapelle. Dave Chapelle gets to be himself, and he's not going to make you laugh every 6 seconds, but he has his own style that is nonetheless extremely popular. JOHN: I think that's a great point. The rules may be true and relevant, but the real artists break free of them and are able to operate outside them. Some things can be true and not true at the same time, and I think it's true whether it's the comedy rules or the rules of advertising. ROB: Indeed. John, looking at your background, looking at how you built up on the film side, I think that's interesting. This is not your first rodeo, starting a business. JOHN: That's right. ROB: You did that, you started over with Mustache; if you're looking back at what you've done, what have you learned that you might do differently if you were starting clean? JOHN: It's a really interesting question. I often think about myself say 10 years ago, and I often come to the conclusion, “What a dumbass you were 10 years ago. You really didn't know anything. If I had just had all the knowledge and experience then that I have now, I could've done so much more.” I think that's true now, but at the same time, all the experiences, all the choices, they were all made in a way that I'm happy with the way they played out. So, there's no one thing that stands out. I will say, though, one thing does stand out and that's diversity and inclusion. I think we've all come to understand the importance of that, and it's something that's been on my radar from the beginning of Mustache, but I didn't give it the attention that I should have in the early days. What I would say is it was very existential. You're young and you're hungry and you're small and you're desperate for any work. If someone wants to work with you, you're like, “Yeah, that's great. Let's go.” So you're less discerning. I had less time to think about it and really plan and do the work. I feel like maybe that is one thing that if I could go back and talk to myself 10 years earlier, I would've given myself that one bit of advice. I've found once we've done that, as we've done that over the years and gotten better at it over the course of the last 10 years, how beneficial it's been for the work and for the clients and for the culture. So that's something. ROB: What did the steps look like to start to turn that corner? I think we all understand the tyranny of the urgent, the “I have to solve this problem now. I need to hire this creative by next week or next month” or whatever it is. What did you put in place to get more intentional there and maybe recruit some people you might've otherwise overlooked? JOHN: That's really interesting because it never ends, especially in our business, which tends to be really fast and furious. A good chunk of our business is project-based. So, in some ways it's the realization that the perfect moment never comes. People talk about wanting to have kids but they're too busy, and they keep telling themselves they're too busy. People will say to them, “It'll never be the right time if that's how you think about it.” That's how I think about this. There's never a moment where I'm like, “Okay, I've checked off everything on my list. I've got it completely under control. Now I can sit back and do it right.” It just doesn't happen. You have to prioritize things and move things around. You have to do the things that you have to do, that feel like imperatives. I think for me, that was the shift. It was like, we're never not facing a client rush/crisis/huge opportunity that I have to focus on because we need to get it. What I had to do was figure out within that context how to move forward anyway with the things that matter. I think once that switch flipped and we were like, we're going to start building that into every choice and everything we do, then we started getting the results that that kind of work suggests. ROB: When you're on that topic, it makes me think back – we had an agency we talked to on this podcast at South by Southwest a couple of years ago. They're a neighbor of yours, but that doesn't mean you've heard of them just because you're in New York. The Soze Agency. Are you familiar with them? JOHN: Yeah, yeah. Isn't it a freelance style, like a loose affiliation or collection of creators or something like that? ROB: I believe they call it a co-op. When I first heard it, it rang as a very Brooklyn thing to say that you were a collective and whatever else. JOHN: I love the Keyser Söze reference. ROB: They're super, super intentional in this area, and I really have appreciated following them since they were on the podcast. But they have an equity model that is interesting. I think they're going to opensource – I don't know if they will or not. I don't mean to speak for them. Everyone vests in ownership, but then they don't take it with them when they leave, so it goes back into the pool and everybody gets to share. JOHN: Yeah, it's very interesting. I've thought about that over the years and struggled with how to pair that with the imperatives of running a small business in an epically fast-changing landscape. But I think it's really interesting, and I've certainly spent time thinking about if it could work, how it could work, what the problems are. In some ways, Mustache was a dictatorship in the sense that if I saw an opportunity or wanted to make a change, I just did it, and there's nothing faster than one person deciding to do something. And that speed was critical at times. But on the other hand, there's things that might've been lost, good choices and good opportunities that might have been missed because we didn't have a more collective style. So, it's a real head-scratcher in some ways. I see the upside; I get stuck on some of the downside. But I think there's something there and I think there's a future there. I just don't think I've figured out how to crack it exactly. ROB: Someone's going to have to pay some lawyers some money to figure it out, and that's a trick too. I think what's interesting is I have been previously very much in tech startup land, and there's a model there that's predicated around growth and around increasing valuations and giving equity. It just doesn't apply in a services firm. You can't hire somebody and give them 1% and then have them walk out the door a few years later. Then your cap table is just a mess. You can't keep giving people this promise of the unlimited upside. When a company goes from a $10 million valuation to a $100 million valuation, they can get away with giving away smaller and smaller chunks in a way that would seem silly in a services firm. JOHN: It's interesting you say that, Rob, because as you were saying, it also occurred to me that the valuations matter. If you have a billion dollar pie, it's a lot easier to split up. The other thing has to do with margins. We're in content/creative. It tends to be a very low margin, tight business. If you're not in the tech valuations, you at least need to have a business model that's geared towards really high margins, really fat profits, because that gives you a little more leeway to do things. And maybe that's self-serving in some way, like if you implement the model, you'll move towards a space that is more profitable. But I think you need one or the other. Those valuations or you need to be in a business that's not razor-thin margins, I think, to make it work. ROB: It's good to have the conversation. I hear from some people who say a services firm, you want 20-30% margins. I don't know how that holds up, but I think what you're saying about setting the sights high – it just gives you more freedom to execute. I think that's what you're hinting it. We went all virtual, and if your margins are good, when you have people coming from six different cities, you can talk about flying somewhere and meeting up. JOHN: That's right. ROB: If you don't have good margins, then you say “We're all going to hide in our caves and never meet each other.” JOHN: [laughs] That's right. So true. My reality. ROB: [laughs] John, when people want to get in touch with you and with Mustache Agency, how should they connect with you? JOHN: Our website is the best place to start, mustacheagency.com. There's plenty of different ways you can contact us from there. ROB: And people should go to that website. It's very visually stimulating. I think it puts your work in a very good light. JOHN: Thank you. ROB: I'm glad the work has gone into the front door there as well. Sometimes it's hard to spend the energy on yourself. JOHN: So true. ROB: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, John. I think it's been helpful to learn from your journey and helpful to think about the areas of business, the lines of business you've chosen and how they synthesize together and where all this video, and particularly advertising, is going in the digital land. I really appreciate it. JOHN: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. ROB: All right. Be well, John. Bye.  Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Tricia and Rob begin this podcast with a ‘fascinating’ discussion of their shared dislike of chewing or slurping noises, their own or others. They suspect they are not alone in their misophonia: a strong reaction to specific sounds! Tricia opens today’s conversation by quoting Denver newscaster Kyle Clark on taking a day off after this incredible news marathon that the year 2020 has been thus far: “You don’t realize how much you’re carrying until you set it down.” But what does it look like, to set it down? She and Rob converse about the rejuvenating practice of truly taking a day off, creating the space to do what relaxes you, and to enjoy a day that looks different from your typical work day routines. “People who work through lunch, never take a break…in our society, that is celebrated. And you can rise to the top really fast just by working harder than everybody else. But it’s also a recipe for burnout. Take some time every day to retreat—and just start there.” – Rob They both offer very practical suggestions for how to truly make the most of a day off in ways that are rejuvenating for you.  “There isn’t a time when I’m accountable to no one, but for me to be able to say ‘I am only doing the things that I like doing today. I’m only reading or writing for pleasure. …Does it feel like work to me? Then I’m not doing it today.” -- Tricia “What is the one thing, such that by doing it, makes everything else easier?” Rob, quoting Gary Keller (below). “Who do you need to let know—so that you can let go?” –Tricia   Resources mentioned: Next with Kyle Clark, 9news.com The One Thing: the Surprisingly Simply Truth behind Extraordinary Results, by Gary Keller

What You'll Learn From This Episode: How to build and nurture your audience How Math and Mindset is crucial to your financial goal Why laser coaching is a fantastic coaching model ​ Related Links and Resources: Rob got a report that list 4 ways to bring in coaching revenue into your business. Get your free report copy from the website: www.innovativecoachingmodels.com Summary: Today's guest, Rob Goyette, has always looked for a Better Way. While most people tend to adapt to this industry and then polish things up to the next level with the standard way of doing things, Rob constantly looks for better and better ways to get things done easier, faster and more profitably. Rob has been supporting leaders in the coaching industry since 2007 and is the creator of the innovative Fast Revenue Laser Coaching model. He lives in Puerto Rico with his wife and 8-year old son. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:35 Rob's ideal Client: Coaches and Business Owners 1:45Problem Rob helps solve: I help them get clients and customers. The big problem, challenge or opportunity is that, a lot of them don't know how to build an audience or nurture that audience. What sell are two factors; it's trust and an irresistible offer. If anything is not working in your marketing, it's one of those two factors. People are either going to trust you or they don't trust as you as a person because you're the experts who can get them the results they want. Or your offer is not irresistible enough, they either don't understand it or it's a not a no brainer for the value you give compare to the relatively small amount of money you charge. You can troubleshoot any marketing with trust and irresistible offer. 3:09Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Rob: They symptoms is usually not enough clients or not enough money coming into their business. As far as emotions, some of its confidence and mindset is like do they deserve it, can they really do it, etc. I like to say that they can hit any financial goal with two factors; Math and mindset. Math is knowing how are you going to hit your goal, and the mindset is do you really deserve it and is your stuffs really worth it. If you don't think so, your audience is going to feel that. If you know absolutely your stuffs is worth it, they're going to feel that too. 4:30What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Rob and his solution: Thinking that building a website is going to bring them business. I've gone to business for years with over six figures without a website. Sure, it's where people should go if they don't know you're trustworthy and want to check you out. But what we really want to do is to drive people to go to your landing pages that have one main goal for them to do; opt-in to your email list, watch your webinar, buy a program. And so, a lot of people just fulfill their dreams, build it and it will come, they think that building a website is going to bring them business but it doesn't. 5:51Rob's Valuable Free Action (VFA): The big picture is you want to build and nurture an audience and then make irresistible offers to that audience. And I believe that the number one way to grow your list, and then nurture them and make an offer is by offering a giveaway. What you can do with the giveaways, is that you can identify your top 10-40 JVP (Joint Venture Partners) and invite them to give a gift or giveaway to your event and tell your list about it. If you can get 10 people with a nice-size list each, they're send their people to your front door which builds your list. And then people come to the front door and can choose the 10 most giveaways, what they want. But the even bigger impact it has, is that you will network between 10 to 40 of your ideal JV partners, meaning you started a relationship. And if you have a good relationship and now you have a list of the giveaways, you can start promoting each other.

What You’ll Learn From This Episode: How to build and nurture your audience How Math and Mindset is crucial to your financial goal Why laser coaching is a fantastic coaching model ​ Related Links and Resources: Rob got a report that list 4 ways to bring in coaching revenue into your business. Get your free report copy from the website: www.innovativecoachingmodels.com Summary: Today’s guest, Rob Goyette, has always looked for a Better Way. While most people tend to adapt to this industry and then polish things up to the next level with the standard way of doing things, Rob constantly looks for better and better ways to get things done easier, faster and more profitably. Rob has been supporting leaders in the coaching industry since 2007 and is the creator of the innovative Fast Revenue Laser Coaching model. He lives in Puerto Rico with his wife and 8-year old son. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:35 Rob’s ideal Client: Coaches and Business Owners 1:45Problem Rob helps solve: I help them get clients and customers. The big problem, challenge or opportunity is that, a lot of them don't know how to build an audience or nurture that audience. What sell are two factors; it's trust and an irresistible offer. If anything is not working in your marketing, it's one of those two factors. People are either going to trust you or they don't trust as you as a person because you're the experts who can get them the results they want. Or your offer is not irresistible enough, they either don't understand it or it's a not a no brainer for the value you give compare to the relatively small amount of money you charge. You can troubleshoot any marketing with trust and irresistible offer. 3:09Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Rob: They symptoms is usually not enough clients or not enough money coming into their business. As far as emotions, some of its confidence and mindset is like do they deserve it, can they really do it, etc. I like to say that they can hit any financial goal with two factors; Math and mindset. Math is knowing how are you going to hit your goal, and the mindset is do you really deserve it and is your stuffs really worth it. If you don't think so, your audience is going to feel that. If you know absolutely your stuffs is worth it, they're going to feel that too. 4:30What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Rob and his solution: Thinking that building a website is going to bring them business. I've gone to business for years with over six figures without a website. Sure, it's where people should go if they don't know you're trustworthy and want to check you out. But what we really want to do is to drive people to go to your landing pages that have one main goal for them to do; opt-in to your email list, watch your webinar, buy a program. And so, a lot of people just fulfill their dreams, build it and it will come, they think that building a website is going to bring them business but it doesn't. 5:51Rob’s Valuable Free Action (VFA): The big picture is you want to build and nurture an audience and then make irresistible offers to that audience. And I believe that the number one way to grow your list, and then nurture them and make an offer is by offering a giveaway. What you can do with the giveaways, is that you can identify your top 10-40 JVP (Joint Venture Partners) and invite them to give a gift or giveaway to your event and tell your list about it. If you can get 10 people with a nice-size list each, they're send their people to your front door which builds your list. And then people come to the front door and can choose the 10 most giveaways, what they want. But the even bigger impact it has, is that you will network between 10 to 40 of your ideal JV partners, meaning you started a relationship. And if you have a good relationship and now you have a list of the giveaways, you can start promoting each other.

A history of a history of west OlympiaMusic in this episode:Frog In The Well by Lucas Gonze used with Creative Commons licensePaper Crowns by Ditrani Brothers used with permission.Sleep by Ronny Tana courtesy of 2060 recordsSwing Gitan by Ditrani Brothers used with permission.Feathersoft by Blue Dot sessions The following is a full transcript of this episode:Rob Smith: One thing I know about the last name Smith, is that it makes you hard to find. I've always seen this as a benefit, but now I'm trying to find a random Smith. Larry Smith. I've been thinking about this guy for several months now. Ever since I learned he helped write a book that's long been out of print. I found a copy of this book on eBay, bought it for $25. It's called How the West Was once a history of West Olympia.On phone: Hey, my name is Rob Smith, and I'm calling for a Larry Smith who used to be a English teacher in Olympia at Jefferson junior high school. And I have no idea if this is the right Larry Smith, but he wrote a book called With some students and I wanted to talk to him about that book that he wrote. So, if that's you, Larry, if you're the Larry Smith..Rob: Here's what I know. Larry Smith was an English teacher at Jefferson Middle School in West Olympia. In 1974, his last year teaching at that school, he assigned his eighth graders a collective writing project. How the West Was Once is the product of that assignment. On the phone: Hey, my name is Rob Smith. I'm calling for a Larry..Rob: The book is small. I'm holding it here it's about eight by five, and just under 100 pages, black and white. My copy has this blue binding material holding it together. The cover's yellowing and only slightly thicker than the books pages. It's clear it was made on a budget. And yet it's well done. Those hundred pages are full of accounts of life on Olympia's West Side, from the mid 19th to mid 20th century. It's not definitive by any means. Some of the stories read a little like legends, and there's a few cringy passages. But the book adds real personal color to the history of West Olympia, a place I learned, once known as Marshville. Ever since I got my hands on this book, I've been thinking about the people who wrote it. I wanted to talk to them. What sort of teacher takes on a project like this? A lot of what I like to do with my audio work is record stories of older people. I see it kind of like time traveling, or preservation at least, it struck me that that's exactly what this project was doing. 45 years ago, in book form.I pay for this service that I use to look people up. It's kind of amazing. You can get phone numbers, addresses, email addresses. The problem is there's a lot of false positives, old numbers, dormant email addresses. Most of the time, you're just reaching out to the wrong person all together. So I went to Jefferson Middle School, the place where this book was written over 45 years. ago, I talked to the principal. He'd never heard of the book. The one who worked there the longest, a woman at the front desk, said she must have just missed Larry Smith. She started in the late 70s. I was told to go see the librarian. She knew the book, had a personal copy herself, but didn't know what had happened to the teacher who orchestrated it. I called the district offices, talk to someone in archives. They had nothing. So I decided to go back to the book, knowing i'd have better luck finding one of the couple dozen students listed in the credits. The first page is a list of names. And at the top of the alphabetized list is Rick Aarts. AARTS. I looked him up, called him, left a message. He called me right back! Rick was great. We talked a while about the book. and what he remembered about his teacher. He said Smith left an impression Only had good things to say about him. I asked him if he knew what had happened to Mr. Smith. Rick remembered something about California. Maybe he moved there for health reasons. He couldn't remember. Rick didn't want to talk on tape, said he'd be a lousy interview. I disagreed. But he gave me another name. So I stopped bugging him.Ray Houser just turned 60 he was one of the eighth graders that put together How the West Was Once Ray Houser: I lived on Decatur Street, which was probably a block and a half from the elementary school, and maybe 8-10 blocks to the junior high. Walked to school pretty much my whole life - typically with my buddy Bruce and Rick and, you know, we built these and developed these relationships and it was back in an era where you could ride your bike anywhere you wanted and you coiuld stay out late at night and we'd go to the park and... It was a little Mayberry.Rob: Bella biagio was also a student of Larry Smith.Bella Biagio: I was considered basically, maybe the class clown. Just because I am who I am and I continued. (laughing) I just you know, I'm, you know constantly.. things make me laugh and everything's comedic to me. So sometimes that got me in trouble.Rob: Ray and Bella both remember Larry Smith as an exceptional teacher. Bella, who as an adult would be diagnosed with ADD found relief in his class.Bella: He was one of the people... if anybody, you know, you didn't think you were done. He... you know what I mean? I f you had that in your mind, that was completely eliminated when you were in his class.Ray: What was unique about Larry was, he was a younger teacher back then, and I was a younger student back then - and he really took a genuine interest in his students and knew something about his students and And genuinely cared about his his kids. Rob: I interviewed Ray and Bella separately on separate days,Bella: Even though I am who I am, and I have this personality and everything. I also am very insular and somewhat shy,Rob: But they both landed on the same word to sum up their eighth grade English teacher 45 years later.Bella: But he just, you know, he was able to like, just take you and just make you feel really safe. I think that's a very good word for him.Ray: It was safe, it was safe physically, it was safe intellectually, and it was safe emotionally.Rob: Obviously, many of their memories have faded. But this feeling of safety has stuck with them all these years. Other memories have stuck around as well.Bella: He had a very distinct smile, a very distinct nose. It's it's weird that I remember this. Like I remember some of the clothing he wore. Like he would wear shirts with the little tie maybe, sports jacket maybe, a sweater or something but he was just always so like... Look he's so cool! And just just like little, the twinkle in the eye and the smile and lanky, sort of tall guy and his wife was beautiful.Rob: Larry's beautiful wife was another clue I had. I knew her name was Nikki. I'd left about a dozen messages for people I thought might be Larry, but none of the contacts had a Nicki associated with them. Then finally, one night as I was making dinner, the phone rang. The caller ID said Smith, Larry. I answered. An old voice told me that he was indeed Larry Smith. And he really wished he was the Larry Smith I was looking for.That night in kind of a fit of desperation. I just googled something like Larry Smith, English professor, California. And as you'd expect, I got a lot of hits. But I found this one in LA, a teacher, an English professor at LA City College. I clicked on his rate my professor page - years and years of glowing reviews. I knew it was a long shot - I mean, Larry must be retired by now. But I emailed this professor and went to bed. The next morning I had a new email. I hit record on my cell phone just before opening it.Rob reading email: ...and just based on the subject line, I think I might have found him… Ha. Cool. "Rob, haha, you hit the jackpot since I’ve never had been on Facebook or MySpace. I'd assume I'd be hard to trace. After Olympia. My wife and I moved to San Jose for four years. On to Coos Bay, Oregon for 16 at a high school, with two in the middle to work in Papua New Guinea to give our three kids a true cultural experience. Paso Robles, California for six, California Youth authority prison, then down to LA area in 2000. Where I continued with high school and adjuncted at several colleges. Now I'm in my fiftieth year with no plan on retiring…. Phone message:Thank you for calling the Whittier Union High School District. Please listen closely to the following options as our menu has changed. Para Espanol oprima a nemero 8. If you are calling from a touch tone telephone and... # Wait while I transfer your call…Larry Smith:Hey, morning, Rob.Rob on phone: Hey, Larry. How you doing?Larry: Good. Great. Hey, let me go grab Patty. She had a she had an event and so she's around here somewhere. She's the one with a phone.Rob I got ahold of Larry Smith in his classroom. He recorded his end on a colleague's cell phone. Larry: Okay, we're on.Rob on phone: Okay, well, um, can you just start, Larry, by introducing yourself, and maybe where you are right now?Larry:Yeah, my name is Larry Smith. I'm a teacher. This is my 50th year. So I've been teaching starting in Olympia, Washington and now I am in Whittier, California teaching at an alternative high school, and Los Angeles City College and living in Pasadena.Rob: Larry grew up near Seattle. It's where he expected to start his teaching career after graduating from Seattle Pacific University. But he finished school during a big recession.Larry: Nobody was hiring. And so I just started going further and further south until I finally found a district that did have an opening and I found the first one in Olympia. And so I had literally never stopped in Olympia. I'd never been on the Capitol grounds. West Olympia, I had no idea what that was. So the first time I really saw where I was going to be living was for my job interview and ended up really enjoying the area, rented a house. It was on Plymouth Street, a two story house in West Olympia for $65 a month! That's how bad the house was and how the economy was in those days.Rob: Jefferson junior high, it was a junior high then not a middle school, wasn't in great shape either. Larry says./Rob: It was pretty rundown, actually, you know, there was like three trees on the whole property. In fact, I think my second year there, we did a big project where we got a bunch of trees donated and the kids planted them along the front of the school and on the side. And I believe if you drive by Jefferson today and see any fairly large trees along the front, they were planted by my eighth graders that year.Rob: I asked Larry what he did for fun. Like, did he go downtown?Larry: No, I didn't. Downtown, my goodness? No, that's where the Washington and Reeves kids hung out. And I wouldn't dare do that. No I was pretty much Westside. I mean, You know, I would eat probably three times a week at Bob's Burgers, which was right across the street from Egan's drive in, which had the worst worst ice cream in the history of humanity, which was so grainy that it would literally sand your teeth down and would go to Peterson's Food Town to buy my food. And then went to church at a little church actually was built during probably my second or third year there, Westwood Baptist Church.Rob: He still had friends and family up north. He'd visit them on the weekends.Larry: So I would jump in my Volkswagen bus, hippie mobile and drive into Seattle and then come back on Sunday for church and then, you know, kind of that was sort of the ritual but yeah it was pretty much West Olympia. Rob: Larry started teaching here in Olympia at 22. closer in age to his students than to their parents. Far from home for the first time, he just folded himself into the west side community. Larry: It was just pure fun. You know, and as a bachelor first year teacher I mean I lived right in the middle of where all my students lived and you know, my door didn't have a, my house didn't even have a lock and I would come home from school and five kids would just be hanging out in the living room and I would be invited to dinner all the time. And, I mean, it was just really a big family thing.Rob: The Bachelor days were short lived. In his third year teaching, Larry magically reconnected as he puts it, with a woman he was engaged to years before at SPU. Within three weeks, the two were married. over winter break, Nikki resigned from her teaching position in Santa Cruz.Larry: And then she moved up and shivered for a year and a half before she talked me into moving south.Rob: It was Larry Smith's last year teaching in Olympia that How the West Was once was written.Larry: I knew it was going to be my final year. I just wanted to try something really unique. And I just happened to be really blessed by an incredible group of kids and wanted to do more than just daily and weekly assignments. And so we just took on this virtually a year long project. Ray:He explained it to us and said that we're going to, we're going to write a book as a class and it's like, oh, okay, well, what does that mean?Rob: They had to decide what to write a book about.Larry: We listed all the possibilities, and I remember one of them was all the uses of ivy. But that didn't seem like a book that would really sell and might have been a parent came up with the idea that we should do a history of the local area because West Olympia is really a distinct geographical region from the rest of the city.Rob: Larry says the first topic was wild John Tourneau, a mass murdering man of the woods that one of his students had told him about. A story he'd passed off as legend. Larry: We looked it up. And sure enough, this guy was a real person who was killed in a gun battle. And so he became sort of our first story and then it just took off. Ray: Everybody in the class got assigned different, different jobs, editors, interviewers, researchers, etc. And we kinda launched into this giant project.Larry: Different kids got more involved. Some of them were involved in every single aspect. But nobody was uninvolved. It's like the entire class picked up the vibration and parents were actively involved. I would get phone calls from people just out of the blue suggesting somebody to go interview. You know, the kids didn't have cars. They were eighth graders. So, their parents would drive them out to the middle of nowhere up to the end of Cooper point or somewhere and sit in the car while the kids went in and did the interviews.Rob: This was all on top of the regular duties of eighth grade English - reading, writing vocabulary. A lot of the work on the book, like the interviews took place after school or on the weekends. Ray and Bella did some of those interviews. Ray: My role was to actually go out and meet with the elder community of West Olympia. They were so gracious and so interested and willing and eager to share their experiences and many who had lived there their entire lives. Rob: Ray remembers a couple of those interviews in particular. One was with an old man that lived near the water and mud Bay.Ray: He wasn't a curmudgeon by any means. But he talked about how the changes and the you know the bringing of new businesses had kind of altered the community feel. And then the other was just an elderly woman who like I say she had cookies and lemonade and it was just exuberant and excited and wanted to meet with us. It was a little intimidating. I was in eighth grade and I was with Larry and my buddy Rick. And we really enjoyed spending time with her and just very gracious and very interested in sharing her experiences.Bella: Oh, they just thought it was so great. I mean, they just thought it was so exciting that one, we we're writing a book and two, what it was about, because, you know, nobody was gonna ask them the history of West Olympia. And they were really excited about, I think, I think people really enjoy telling the history of where they've lived, probably all their entire life.Rob in conversation: Yeah. Some of my favorites are the personal ones like the guy that did the ark, built the ark.Bella:Yeah. Why did he built the Ark? I don't rememberRob in conversation: I think he was waiting for the second flood?Bella: Yeah, you know that really live in it up, didn't it? (laughing)Rob: Each chapter of the book is a different topic or story. There's a chapter on the different incarnations of the Fourth Avenue Bridge, The story of Harry Beechy, a hulk of a man who lost his arm working as a longshoreman. I love the story of the streetcar that used to run up Harrison Hill, and take a right on Rogers, how kids greased the tracks one year as a Halloween prank. Each account was recorded by the kids during the field interviews, some on tape, some handwritten notes. The stories were written up back in class, then edited. Larry says plenty of the work didn't make it into the book.Larry: Certain stories, we couldn't verify. And so they were eliminated. The stories that weren't as well written and we just wanted it to be a crisp, concise, only the very best. And so the story about Harry Beechy, the guy that built the ark, and the plane that crashed into St. Peter's hospital, you know, they made the cut and so we really focused on them. Bella: Here's the art guy! Here it is! Oh my god, (reading)“Bill started work on ark II in 1922 and worked on it for four or five years before he finished it” (laughing) "Bill was an average man except for one thing, he built an ark". Oh, that's great!Rob: When the writing was done, Larry's wife Nikki typed it all up. This project wasn't over yet though. Students helped collate the pages and learned how to bind the books. There was marketing. They built wooden display cases to put in shops around town.May 16 1974, the students finally had finished products to show for their work.Larry: We just sold it I think it was for $1.25, which probably today would be about $15. Of course, every kid in the class had family members who wanted to buy them and the Daily Olympian published a story about it. And that developed some interest.Rob: The book sold out in no time, 1500 copies before school was even out for summer. Summer was when Larry and Nikki packed up their house on Plymouth Street.Larry: I basically put a fairly large group of them in charge of whatever was going to happen with a book. And they authorized and supervised another printing, continued to sell, continued to meet and determine where the money would be distributed after I left the school. I mean, this group was so responsible and incredible. Rob: Larry didn't know it, but he wasn't done with this group just yet. The following year, they won an award.Larry: Yeah, it was, it was like a new author prize that was given every year for the entire state of Washington. And it was so exciting to them and I, of course didn't know about it, and this was way pre-internet and nobody had my phone number but I got a... somebody, I think I had a forwarding address probably in the personnel office. And so I got a letter from the kids confirming that it was me and once they knew it was they purchased and sent me down a round trip plane ticket from San Jose to SeaTac and back to attend the, it was a governor's reception at the Capitol, and all the kids, it was funny because there were just probably 10 other adult authors and then like 50 kids (laughing) at this thing, that were still actively involved in this book, and they all got some kind of a metal certificate. I can't even remember what. But it was great, you know, best reunion I've ever had, even though it’d only been a year to just see, see how these kids had grown and just continued to be an enthusiastic bright group.Rob: In the end, about 60 Kids helped in the production of the book. 2500 copies were printed and sold. And much of the money from the sales was donated to help local senior citizens. Bella and Ray, both tell me that they think often about this eighth grade project and their teacher, Larry Smith.Bella: He really just made this thing happen. Like we wrote a book.Rob: Bella - whose last name in the book is Sabella, by the way - Bella has made a career in the performing arts, both on stage and in the restaurant industry. She says that Larry's class, that feeling of safety, helped her out of her shell and gave her a feeling of accomplishment.Bella: You know, feeling so like important and proud that we did this, you know? And, you know, I think it's a really wonderful thing that we all had that opportunity. 'Cause I don't think a lot of people get to have that kind of opportunity. They just don't.Rob: Like Larry, Ray Houser went into public education. He's worn a lot of hats over the years. From teacher to assistant superintendent. One of his roles had him traveling the country researching effective teaching strategies. It gives him a unique perspective on Larry's approach to teaching.Rob: I gotta say, Larry was lightyears ahead of his time when it comes to effective teaching strategies. And I've, I've done a ton of research. The whole idea of relevance, real world experiences, collaboration opportunities, engagement strategies, it was, now that I look back on it, I didn't know then obviously, as an eighth grader, it was, it was pretty incredible that he had kind of discovered how to engage his students, how to ensure that their learning was, was relevant and required them to work collaboratively. That's, that's the stuff we've been focusing on for the last 10 years and we're still trying to get into most of public education, he was doing it 40 years ago.Rob: Larry was modest when I asked him if he had any secrets to great teaching.Larry: Yeah, the secret is when you teach Junior High they're, they're too clueless to really know how bad you are. And if you tell jokes and give fun assignments, they might like it. But, you know, I don't know. It's hard to tell. I mean, teaching in some ways is hardly, it's not like a job for me because, it's like the old saying that if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And it's… I got a, received a card from a student in that class that I tucked away somewhere that said "Mr. Smith promise you'll never grow up". And, unfortunately, my wife says that's the case.Rob: After the self deprecation. Larry got a bit more real.Larry: But really what it boils down to, it's kind of a 50/50 thing. You have to love the material and you have to love the students. And if you love the students, you're going to make sure they learn the material and if you love the material, you're going to make sure the students you know, have access, learn to love it as much as you do. And you just can't take things too seriously. When kids are in bad moods, you can't think that they're doing it because they're angry with you, but there's probably something going on in their home and, and a lot of that whole philosophy came in my very first year teaching probably three or four months into the year, a student who was a foster girl, her name was Valerie Good, was shot and killed by her foster brother in their home. And it just shook me to the core realizing how fragile life is and how special these kids are. And that stuck in my mind forever that you know, every single kid is really valuable and full of potential. And to this day, I think, after 50 years and probably 50,000 students I don't think I've met one kid who didn't have vast potential and some of them never realized it. Some ended up in prison, some ended up dying of drug overdose, some ended up suicides. But the possibilities were always there and, and since you don't know who's going to just blossom and potentially be the next, Michael Jordan or Barack Obama or, you know, great author, you just treat all of them as if that's going to happen.Rob: These days Larry and Nicky Smith live near Los Angeles. They have three children and six grandchildren. One of the things that Larry loves about Southern California is all the different cultures. He tells me that LA City College where he works is the most culturally diverse college in the world. Another obvious difference between here and there is the weather. Larry can't seem to get enough of the warm, sunny climate after his early years in the Pacific Northwest. Maybe this is the origin of the rumor that Larry and Nikki moved to California for health reasons. Despite the weather, Olympia holds a high place in Larry's mind.Larry: Of all the schools I've taught in, the class of 1974. Jefferson Junior High is the most memorable. It was that group that, I mean, all my kids in Olympia were great, but for some reason, it's like a convergence of the planets or something. But I still can look over the names and picture every single kid in that group. Great, great memories, and I wish I had been a more experienced teacher and had done a better job academically, but I'm sure if I could find out what you're doing. I would be so proud and so impressed and so amazed, and just, you know, blessed that I got to be a part of your lives for nine months, and that was the best nine months of my life. So thank all of you for sure. From the bottom of my heart.CREDITS:Rob: Thanks to Rick Aarts for calling me back. Thank you, Larry for checking your email. And on that note, Larry says if you're a former student of his, he'd love to hear from you. His email address is Smithoverseas@hotmail.com. Thank you to Ray and Bella, for allowing a total stranger to come into your homes and talk with you. Even if it was against the better judgment of your friend, Bella.Bella: My friend's like "hey, do you know this man?" I'm like, "No". he's like, "you're letting him in the house?" I'm like, "Yeah." He goes "Do you have something that if you need to kill him..." (Laughing)Rob: You heard music today by, in order, Lucas Gonze, two pieces by Northwest band Ditrani Brothers. The psychedelic track was by local artists Ronnie Tana, courtesy of Olympia's own 2060 Records. Additional music by Blue Dot Sessions. Ending theme music by skrill Meadow. More info and links on all these artists in the show notes and welcometoolympia.com.I first came across the out of print book How the West Was once in the bibliography of a book that's very much in print. Understanding Olympia is a really funny and (smiling) mostly accurate guide to Olympia by David Shearer Water. You can buy it at Browsers, Orca Books, or online at buyolympia.com. Ending Theme Music by Skrill Meadow. With permission I posted the chapter on the ark builder, Bill Greenwood at Welcometoolympia.com. It's under the show notes for this episode. Also, this book wasn't the only extracurricular activity that Larry Smith did with his class. They also made silent films. Ray still has one of these and he shared it with me. Honestly, it's just a bunch of teenagers goofing around on the Capitol campus, but it was 45 years ago. Check it out. Welcometoolympia.com. It'll also be in the show notes. Finally, I thought it only fair that I give Egan's a second chance on Larry's behalf. It has been 45 years. I took my five and seven year olds recently. Rob at Egan’s: Does it taste grainy at all to you?7 year old: No, it tastes like ice cream a tiny bit melted with chocolate and vanilla mixed up together good.Rob: There you have it. I'm Rob Smith.

What is Financial Planning? Rob: Financial planning; why it makes sense for you, what to make sure you have, and what are the pitfalls to avoid? I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I'm here with Adam Buss. He's a CFP wizard with this kind of stuff. Senior Wealth and Estate Planner here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam, thanks for being here.   Adam: Thanks for having me, Rob.   Rob: All right. Adam financial plans. Who needs to have a financial plan?   Adam: Well rob in my opinion, I think everybody needs to have a financial plan.   Rob: Is your opinion biased?   Adam: (Chuckles) Well, because I do the financial planning it's automatically biased, but yes, as a financial planner, I believe everybody needs a financial plan, but everybody needs one for different reason. Everybody's at different stages of life. The ones that we often come across are those approaching retirement.   Rob: They're approaching retirement. You're thinking, oh my goodness, do I have enough cash for where am I going and do I have enough cash for retirement?   Adam: That is often the biggest question – can I retire? Sometimes it's us giving the client permission saying, yes, you have enough financial resources or cash at your disposal to retire comfortably and live that lifestyle.   Rob: The financial planning process is all about giving the client peace of mind that they can accomplish their retirement goals. Let's talk about the actual financial planning process here at the Tétrault Group for example. How does it go?   Adam: Well, we have a fairly dedicated process. It generally involves a couple of different meetings with the client. We want to sit down, we want to get to know you. We want to know what your unique goals and objectives are. There's no cookie cutter approach here. There's no one size fits all when it comes to financial planning, because unless I sit down with you and learn what's important to you, I can't try to accomplish those goals for you. We first want to do a fact finding and we want to sit down. We want to gather as much information as possible from the client. Then I go back and I work on building the financial plan. Perhaps I need to get some additional information, coordinate with the client's accountants, lawyer, anybody else that's important in that decision making process. And then I have the plan ready. We'll sit down with the client. We're going to go through everything step by step, educate them on the entire process. What's important. And then of course, it's not just simply done at that point. We want to do annual reviews. We want to make sure that we're keeping up with any changes that happen in the client's life.   Rob: If someone sells an asset perhaps, or there's a death, or maybe there's a new grandchild – those are goals that would for sure form part of the review portfolio.   Adam: We call it major life events. A death in the family and inheritance, or retirement and birth of somebody, all of those different things may change how the client views their financial goals going forward.   Rob: Okay. Let's take a look at the kind of questions on people's minds. Cashflow, or do I have enough to retire? What are some of the other questions that you would look at when you're doing the financial plan?   Adam: Often, nobody wants to pay more tax than necessary, and everybody wants to pay the least amount of tax possible. We always take that approach with clients, whether it's an incorporated individual that asks the question if they should take dividends or salary, or draw down their corporation, or start taking money from my RRSP. That's a very common one that we get. Often, it's how much money is left for my beneficiaries down the road? Can I leave more money to the family? What's my tax bill when I pass away? Those are all some of the aspects that we look at.   Rob: What are some of the pitfalls that you've seen that you're able to avoid or you're able to advise people to avoid? I'm imagining income splitting and taking money from the wrong corporation. I'm taking dividends instead of salary. What are some of those other ones that you sometimes see?   Adam: Well, those are certainly a lot of the big ones, but another is not planning ahead of time. Coming to us after you've already retired and then wondering, well, did I make the right choice? Should I have waited to retire? Should I have waited to take my Canada pension plan?   Rob: The world-famous - "Should I take my CPP" question?   Adam: That is a world-famous question and one that we see multiple times per day.   Rob: Sometimes it's too late. Once you've made that decision,   Adam: Once you decide, that's it. You're stuck with whatever choice you made.   Rob: We would take a look at that. We would take a look at income splitting. We would take a look at the tax efficiency in corporations. We would take a look at to see, I would imagine if there's any life insurance that can be used to kind of optimize wealth and what does the actually look like? So what do you actually do in a plan - it's number crunching and it's cashflow projection? Full Video and Blog Article on Income Splitting   Adam: That's the basis of it. Maybe we come back with a nice detailed report saying, okay, what does your cashflow look like in retirement? That's great. You want $6,000 per month, but where do we take that from? We're going to look at your Canada pension plan, your old age security, your work pension, your corporate dollars, your RRSP or RRIF or your tax free. Where is the most logical and efficient way that we can get to that goal of $6,000 per month   Rob: And then you will build that year by year.   Adam: Yes.   Rob: Until you're 90-95 something like that.   Adam: Yeah. We generally try to use fairly conservative planning projected out until mid-nineties to ensure that the client does not run out of financial resources.   Rob: What about this comment I hear all the time that you need 70% of your income in retirement to live? What do you think about that?   Adam: I would view that as a common misconception. If I'm working today and retire tomorrow, my lifestyle and expenses are probably the same. I can't say that I need 70% of my income. Perhaps I want to travel more in retirement time. My expenses may actually go up. There is no one size fits all. It's about us getting to know the client, their goals, their objectives, their cashflow needs to make sure that we are achieving their target number that they want to spend.   Rob: The great thing is, is that it's truly a year by year breakdown. If there is a year where you would maybe sell the home or sell the cottage or get an inheritance, that can be factored into the plan.   Adam: Absolutely. We want to update it as time goes on as well. You may know that you're going to get an inheritance down the road, but we don't build it in. We wait for it to have actually happened. If we have a real dollar, we'll factor it in. We can estimate when you're going to sell the cottage or when you're going to sell the house. Perhaps you want to downsize, or you want to sell the family cottage down the road.   Rob: I imagine that there are some years where there's going to be less expenditures potentially down the line. These plans are very nimble and you're able to front load them for some clients, with more cashflow needed in years 1 to 10 and less cashflow needed potentially at the back end.   Adam: We see that very often with clients. They have a higher need for the first 10 to 15 years of retirement. They're more active years, they want to travel more. You want to do a lot of fun things while you're healthy and able to do these. You need more cash to do that. We want to add more cash to the budget for the first couple of years and then reduce that down over time.   Rob: See, at the end of the day, our goal here is to protect the wealth. Makes sure that we can answer the question as to can I retire? Like the financial planning process is initially is going to be, can I retire? That's the question. And then it's going to be optimized.   Adam: Absolutely.   Rob: Which accounts? Tax efficiency, leaving more to the estate, protecting the wealth. It truly is a fun process. We've gone through it so many times with clients and I find that it brings me great joy because when we do deliver that plan to the clients, they are so thrilled. They're so excited, they have an answer, they know they have peace of mind and they tell us how unbelievable it is for them to get this peace of mind. Thanks for, thanks for coming Adam today. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us about financial planning and how important it is for clients.

Raj Lala – CEO of Evolve ETFs   Rob: Good Day folks. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Pretty excited today who we got here today. Raj Lala. He's CEO, president and founder of Evolve ETFs. Really glad to have him in our office here in Winnipeg. Thanks for coming, we are excited to have you and we're going to talk ETFs today. Evolve. You guys have really kind of evolved from, I'll say a niche player, to now becoming more mainland with some of the line's you guys have on the ETFs. First of all, I'd love to hear about how the company started, and why ETFs. Raj: Prior to putting a evolve together, I ran Wisdom Tree Canada, which is one of the world's largest CTF providers. Prior to that, I ran the retail business for Fear of Capital, which is one of the country's largest asset managers. Before that, I ran a company with a couple of partners and actually sold that to Fiera. Going all the way back, I worked at Jovian capital, which was a mid-sized financial services company. Jovian was actually the company that helped incubate the horizons ETFs. I intersected into the ETF business a couple of times. When I left wisdom tree towards the end of 2016, I decided I wanted to go out and build one. All my friends said I was nuts. How are you going to build something? It's way too competitive. You've got the banks, you've got the large asset managers. How are you going to compete? We already have 500 ETFs, today we have over 800 ETFs, but back then, 500 ETFs in the market.   Rob: This is in 2016?   Raj: This would have been at the end of 2016. And how are you really going to get traction? I said, you know what? You're actually right. If I was going to go and create kind of another XIU or another SPY you know, I think that those are very well covered by the big firms like the iShares and the Vanguards, but I believe that there's a couple of areas of the market that are either underserved or unserved. I'm a big believer that in certain asset classes you really need good active management because good active management can make a big difference on a risk adjusted return basis. What we did was we put together a lineup of asset classes, and specifically in fixed income for sure, that we felt truly do benefit from good active management. And then how we differentiate ourselves a little bit is we went out there and went across the globe, and of course folks here in Canada, to identify the kinds of portfolio managers that we could partner up with who had a great track record in that specific asset class. Oftentimes our competitors, what they'll do is they'll internalize that portfolio management, but sometimes the portfolio management team doesn't have a great deal of expertise. For us it was more important to find a manager with a brand, and that actually had a great track record. We've partnered up with Voiced and Gordon Pain to run a couple of funds for us. Our biggest fund, which has emerged somewhat of a flagship for us, is a Canadian preferred share fund that they run full as …   Rob: That's DIVS?   Raj: That's DIVS, yeah. We've partnered up with Voiced In also to run a Canadian core fixed income fund. We partnered up with Nuveen in the US – for those of you not familiar with Nuveen, Nuveen runs part of TIA, which is effectively the US version of Ontario teachers.   Rob: Okay, yeah.   Raj: They run about a trillion dollars. They're running a couple of funds for us, a US equity as well as a short duration yield, and the biggest manager that I've ever worked with in my career. About eight months ago, we launched a fund with Allianz Global Investors. Allianz right now runs about $2.2 trillion. The portfolio manager of our fund is the sister company to PIMCO. So really, these are segments of the market that we believe really benefit from good active management. Then the other pillar to our business where we've gotten a lot of press and a lot of attention is our thematic, primarily index-based ETFs. So focused on long-term trends, focused on strategies or sub sectors that you can point to that are really changing our world over the course of the next 10 years. But most importantly from an investment perspective, that they have a strong investment thesis behind them, and that they could never be confused with a fad. For example, we launched Canada's first cyber security ETF. Can't be a fad; everybody knows, all of your clients will know. I'm sure everyone has had an attempted breach. They have gotten an email from a bank that they don't bank with asking them to verify their account details, or a Microsoft email to verify their account. We're clear we're getting barraged by attempted hack in our world today, and it's only going to increase.   Rob: Let's talk about that one. So that is the cyber security ETF launched in the last year or so, right?   Raj: A year and a half ago.   Rob: So specifically, what kind of tech, what kind of companies are you targeting, what goes in there? How many names are in there?   Raj: That's an index based, passive ETF.   Rob: Okay.   Raj: What we do is, our typical index provider is a Frankfurt based company called Solactive. They're doing a number of ETFs in Canada as well, and what we do is we put together the methodology. They put together the methodology with us. I would go to Solactive and I would say I want to build a cybersecurity ETF. They would go and take a look at their entire list of indices. If they say, actually we don't have a cybersecurity index, they would go and build it. There's an organization called Factset. Factset creates the methodology. Effectively, every company that would be classified as a cybersecurity company that's publicly listed, that also has a minimum market cap of 100 million for that fund. Depends on the fund, but for that fund – Minimal Heart Capital – 100 million. And then minimum trading volume of 2 million a day makes it into our portfolio.  So right now, that's about 37 companies.   Rob: That's globally?   Raj: That's globally.   Rob: How many of those are in North America?   Raj: About 75% is US based. There's nothing right now in Canada. And then you've got a little bit in Europe and you've got a little bit in Asia, but still it's been dominated. One of the interesting elements of Cybersecurity is that there's such a massive shortage of human capital in the cybersecurity world. I'll give you an example. When I take a look at this space in this sector and think long-term, here's what I think. First, we all know cyber-crime is going to continue to increase. Second, we all know that companies need to continuously increase their spending on cybersecurity. What's really interesting is that it's a nondiscretionary spend. You're never going to have a CEO of a major fortune 500 company after a terrible financial quarter stand up in front of their shareholders and their board and say, we've had to cut our spending on cybersecurity.   Rob: Right.   Raj: They will say that we've decided to close some offices, or that were the first certain initiatives, but they're never going to reduce their spending on cybersecurity because it's death if they get breached. Equifax, about two years ago, got a breach of 143 million records, right?   Rob: Stock dropped like crazy.   Raj: 35% drop and still hasn't recovered. Why hasn't it recovered? Because everybody left Equifax and went to companies like Transunion and never went back.   Rob: They don't have the confidence, right?   Raj: They don't have the confidence. You can imagine what it would be like for, let's say a bank, where if you lose that customer confidence they'll just go to another bank. They may never come back, and you spent all that money to acquire that customer, and tens of years to get there, you never want to lose it. It's really important. Then the third part to it is that a lot of people don't know that cyber security is one of the very few sectors today that actually has negative unemployment. There is a shortage of about 3 million people, meaning there are 3 million job vacancies in the cybersecurity world. What has happened is a lot of the largest companies, government agencies, fortune 500s or banks, contract out a huge portion of their cyber security work. Typically, a Canadian Bank for example, might have between 3 to 5 million attempted breaches per day. They need a cyber security company to help them weed through the real threats and the artificial threats as well. When you look at a product like that, the investment thesis behind it is yes, cybercrime is going to continue to increase. Companies need to continuously increase their spending on cybersecurity, making it somewhat recession proof. Finally, there's a shortage of human capital, a massive shortage of human capital, which means most of the work needs to be contracted out. If you're CEO of a fortune 500 company, are you going to contract out that work to a small private cybersecurity company or are you going to contract …   Rob: Publicly listed.   Raj: Bingo. So that's that fund. So that fund …   Rob: How's it done?   Raj: First of all, it ended up being the top performing equity ETF from Canada last year.   Rob: Wow.   Raj: Right now, we launched at the end of September, so we're, what, call it a year and eight months, and we're up over 50%.   Rob: Wow.   Raj: From point to point and not been an easy market the last year and a half …   Rob: Right.   Raj: … it's performing incredibly well, but what I love about it is the long-term investment thesis is strong. And then another example of that would be our Future of the Automobile ETF.   Rob: Yeah. You know what, let's talk about Canada's first future car ETF. I'm here with Raj Lala, CEO of Evolve ETFs. Raj, why would someone launch a future cars ETF?   Raj: I think that the next 10 years will be the biggest transformation in the automotive industry, not just of our lifetime, but in history.   Rob: Do you think oil is going to eventually not be a player at all?   Raj: I think what's interesting is the misconception as to how much of oil demand is derived from automobiles. It's not as much as you think it is. It's about 20%.   Rob: Right.   Raj: Oil is used for so many other things, right? So, yes, I believe that in the next 10 years, that 20% will shrink dramatically for sure. Because we have countries today like India and China who have both publicly declared that they will ban the combustible engine in the next 10 to 15 years – China in 2030, India in 2035.   Rob: Okay. So, this ETF, how does it play that?   Raj: When I looked at – again, the long-term trends are shaping our world – the long-term trend, I'm a firm believer that in the next 5 to 10 years, we will have self-driving cars on the road, autonomous cars. I'm a firm believer that electric vehicles will continue to rise in popularity, especially as the cost comes down and it is coming down. The cost of manufacturing the battery is coming down, countries are putting in place policies ...   Rob: Infrastructure's improving.   Raj: … Infrastructure's improving, the auto manufacturers are moving from combustible engine, to hybrid, to eventually full electric. You're seeing all of that. I mean, more electric vehicles were sold last year than all other years combined. China's producing about 39 million electric vehicles right now. They have that much demand at the moment. You're seeing all of this taking place. On the electric side it's firmly embedded. It's firmly going to continue on the self-driving side. I do believe that you're eventually going to have self-driving cars. In fact, I was just talking to a couple of other people about it, and I said I think in the next 12 months, most people here in Canada will actually have their first experience in a self-driving car. Somebody will be sitting at the steering wheel, but they won't be touching anything. They'll just be there to make sure that the car is safe. But we are definitely getting to the point where the technology is there. And I'll give you an interesting stat. In order to power a self-driving car, a semiconductor chip needs to have the ability to make 10 million decisions per second.   Rob: Okay.   Raj: That's how many decisions you and I are making per second when we're driving. Now you could think that doesn't make any sense, because I know I'm not making 10 million decisions per second. You are, it's just subconscious. Right now, the best something semiconductor chips can power about 4 million decisions per second. So, we're still 40% of where we need to be to power a self-driving car.   Rob: There's not enough computation power right now to drive, is what you're saying?   Raj: Right. The way it works in self driving cars is level 5 would be a fully self-driving car. Today we're at about level 3.5, so we still have a ways to go to get there, and then we've got to deal with legislation, and then we've got to deal with insurance. If you get into an accident, who has the insurance claim? You're not driving the car, so it was that the auto manufacturers. That's all the stuff that still needs to get sorted out. But I believe that we're getting there, and that the amount of increase in safety that it's going to create, and also decrease the amount of traffic and congestion. I live in Toronto and I know how bad the traffic is, and self-driving cars would be great. Then the other side to that business is also the shared. Shared is a super interesting side of the business. when I'm talking to 65 or 70-year old's, and their grandparents, I say to them, if you're thinking about saving money for buying your grandchild a car, go on a trip. Don't waste your money. Because as kids are getting older, they actually don't want to drive. Most kids don't want to drive, they want to be Ubered or Lifted around. Or they might even consider a shared a model where they have a partial ownership of a car, but they don't actually even really want to own a car. Very different than when we grew up.   Rob: I couldn't wait to save money to buy my first car.   Raj: Right. I couldn't wait until I could get my driver's license and drive my Dad's Monte-Carlo around, and eventually get my own car. It's different. Younger people are different today. They don't want it. The shared side is also another aspect of this. That fund really kind of encapsulates what is actually like   Rob: What are the companies that we're buying? Are we buying like Waymo and those kinds companies?   Raj: Great question. Well, although Waymo is making a lot of progress and …     Rob: And Waymo is Google's self-driving car.   Raj: Yeah. Although Waymo is making a lot of progress and some people think they're the front runner, the challenge with Waymo is, unless Google spins it out, we would have to buy Google. And so how do you do it then? What are you actually buying? Typically, you would have to generate between 25 to 35% of your overall revenue from these aspects 25 months ago. And Waymo is not generating. Waymo is not making up 25% of Google's revenue as an example rate. It has to be more of a pure play. And what we also did was we equal weighted this fund instead of market cap weight. And the reason we did that was because if we market cap weighted it then investors would basically just have a lot of exposure to the car manufacturers. Rob: Right.   Raj: What we wanted was to give investors the experience of having exposure to the supply chain, the companies that are creating the batteries, the companies that are creating the semiconductors, the technology that's going into self-driving cars, electric vehicles.   Rob: So is this one an index or is this one …   Raj: It is.   Rob: It's an index as well as, and there'll be some supply chain, there'll be some car manufacturers, there'll be some battery makers, there'll be all of that.   Raj: You got it.   Rob: Nice, very interesting.   Raj: And then one other fund that ties into those two, which I think is always relevant is the Innovation Fund. The TSS ticker for that is edge. The reason we created that was because when we were talking to a lot of advisors, and we're talking to a lot of clients, you know, we, we heard them say to us that I love your cyber security ETF, I love your Future of the Automobiles ETF. Don't know how it fits into my portfolio. So, could you create something that becomes kind of a catchall to all the disruptive industries and companies that are really shaping our world over the course of the next 10 years? We created Edge to basically be that proxy. So effectively, it has six buckets; in in a week from now, we'll actually have seven buckets, but six buckets. One bucket allocates to our cybersecurity ETF, one bucket allocates – and it's all equal, so, one sixth in each – one allocates to the Future of the Automobile. Then it also allocates to Robotics and Automation, and also to Data, Genomics and Social Media. All of the industries gives you a more diversified way to invest in everything that is shaping our world. And you know, it's a super interesting world, there's a lot of things that are going to change. I'm actually a firm believer that in the next 10 years most of us will have robots living in our house. We'll have cars and …   Rob: Not just doing our vacuuming,   Raj: No, not just doing our vacuuming. First robot was actually the dishwasher. That was the first official encounter with a robot. And now it's the vacuum or the Roomba. Now we're migrating because artificial intelligence is becoming so strong, which is super important. We will have robots performing surgeries on us without that nine month wait list. It's a super exciting world. And these are all the industries and the companies and sectors that are changing it, and making it better.   Rob: I'm here with Raj Lala CEO of Evolve ETFs. Let's talk briefly about cannabis ETFs. There's a lot of talk that's been about HMMJ, kind of the first ETF that came out. You guys approached it a little differently. Tell me about the two that you have on the shelf now.   Raj: Yeah, good question. When we started looking at the cannabis space, I started looking at it actually a few years ago and decided not to launch a product because I just still didn't feel like the social stigma was positive enough towards cannabis. This was pre legalization of course. Then we started getting more comfortable and started taking a closer look at it. What we decided as a firm is that we felt that it made a lot of sense to take an active approach to this market, because there's a lot of things at play that are a little bit unique to the space, legislation, momentum, things like that. It's a niche play. We have two – as you mentioned – we have two cannabis funds. One that's kind of Canadian/Global, and then one that we launched just about two months ago, which was actually the first in the world focused on the US space. I'll talk really quickly about both. The Canada global one has been around for about a year and a half now, and over the last year, the top performing ETF actually in Canada.   Rob: It was up like 40% or something like that?   Raj: Yeah, up about 43% for the one year. It's done incredibly well, and our management team has done a fantastic job of managing it.   Rob: How many those names would be in that one?   Raj: There're about 35 names in it.   Rob: So that's an actively managed ETF. Management is picking stock selection that's happening in there. Arbitrage, you're trying to find deals that are going to come. Overprice; is it long short or is it strictly long?   Raj: Strictly long.   Rob: Strictly long, and you're trying to find value.   Raj: Very little in privates. Like you know, we can only allocate about 10% into privates. But what the guys did, I think where they really generated some strong alpha would have been in Q3/Q4 of last year. Leading up to legalization in October, we took the view about a month and a half prior to legalization that the euphoria that was going to go into the space was going to go into the big names, the Aphrias, the Canopies, the Auroras of the world. We went overweight into those names, a week and a half to two weeks prior to legalization. The team took the view that there's not a chance that post legalization reality is going to live up to all this hype. What they did was they went way under on the large caps and they also started to allocate to some of the tertiary businesses like the Scott's Miracle Grow. In that two-month period, we added about close to 20% Alpha versus the passive index. The active approach has really worked well for us in that fund. As we started to focus on that fund, we started to recognize the opportunity that exists in the US cannabis space. Looked at stats like Planet 13, which is a big dispensary business in the US, had more revenue than Kronos, but had one 20th the market cap of Kronos. The US companies were way undervalued. Part of it was because there's a lot of legislative things to deal with in the US as it's not federally legal yet in the US, but we hope that that's going to change the next couple years. But then you have States Act, Farm Act, Safe Act, all these things that are kind of coming into play at the moment and went, and US companies cannot also list in the US right now, so they're listing here in Canada. But the opportunity is massive. We look at the US opportunity to be kind of like the way the Canadian opportunity was like three years ago.   Rob: You're trying to get ahead of the bump there.   Raj: What we try to do with our business, is always try and look forward. I try to stay away from, oh this is a sector that has performed the best over the last five years, so let's launch this product. If you don't have the conviction or the strength to believe that it's going to continue for the next five years, then I don't think you should do it. You should be thinking early stages. Like for example, we launched a Materials and Mining Needs ETF just last month. It's not a popular sector, right? It's been beaten and battered and bruised. But we believe that that's a sector that's going to recover over the course of the next couple of years and we want to be there for that recovery. So, the same type of logic. On the US side for cannabis, our view is that as legislation starts to become more friendly towards cannabis companies, you're going to start to see more value go into those stocks, more investors moving into them eventually. They'll also be listing in the U S which will be a lot easier for Americans to buy, versus trying to buy a Canadian listed stock. As you and I both know, the potential of the US market is always 10 or more to 1 versus Canada. The big advantage that they've got, like you look at California, which is the interesting one, California …   Rob: The size of Canada. Raj: Right, similar size. But they allowed them to brand the products and market them properly and things like that. We don't unfortunately have that hear in Canada, so the US will most likely displace Canada in many ways in that space. We want to be there early.   Rob: And these are listed companies in Canada that are in the ETF?   Raj: That's right.   Rob: It's a real neat idea. Congrats, and want to talk about one more. It's really interesting to me. I'm here with Raj Lala, CEO of Evolve ETFs. Let's talk about Hero. The ETF that you guys launched about Canada's first e-gaming ETF. I played a lot of video games and as a kid, I still wish I had more time to play them. What's Hero?   Raj: I love this fund. It's an interesting story. I would say about nine months ago, multiple people brought the idea to me; have you looked at the gaming industry, because it's really taken off in a big way. I have two 11-year-old daughters that do not really spend much time gaming. I think my mom spends more time gaming because she plays a lot of candy crush cause she's retired. I was looking at that whole space and I was like, I don't see. And then as I started to really drill down into it, I was like, wow, this is a massive, massive space. There are today 2.2 billion gamers in the world. A gamer would be defined as somebody that spends six hours or more a week gaming. Okay, so 2.2 billion. That's a third of the population …   Rob: That's a lot of time, a lot of time.   Raj: That's a lot of time, and it's a third of the population. Most of it is on people's smartphones. So originally, I was thinking, okay, but how does this make a lot of sense? Because when I think of video gaming, I think about, yeah, when you and I were teenagers, we were playing video games or in today's world, you've got your teenager up in their room playing video games or in the basement or what have you, and then realized how big the market was because it is people like retired people playing candy crush and word search games, things like that. It is 40 something year olds. I've got friends that are 40 something years old, working on the trading desks at the banks, that wake up on a Saturday morning and they hop online and play an e-sport together with their friends for three, four hours. The demographics for this are enormous. That's interesting. Then I started to take a closer look at the business model of these companies. And that's where I would say I had my aha moment that we need to launch this type of product. Because in our days when, we wanted to play video games, we would go to the store, buy the cartridge or the CD, we'd come home, we'd plug it into the console, and away we went, right? But that's where the revenue stopped for the game manufacturer. In today's world, they have an entire vertical of revenue. So, Fortnite as an example …   Rob: It's unbelievable.   Raj: It's a free game, right? But where they make their money is the boosters, the weapons, the players, all that kind of stuff. Right? But companies like Tencent effectively and directly owns Fortnite. But technically it's not just creating the revenue off that game. What these game manufacturers are also doing, like Activision, Blizzard, EA and Tencent is that they're creating the leagues that people compete in.   Rob: Yes.   Raj: And then they create the events. The events are very interesting. Last year, Dota 2 was a big event, actually the biggest event so far. It was actually in Vancouver. They had over a hundred million people. League of legends as well, had over a hundred million people watching it. So not just filling stadiums to watch people play games, which surprised me, but watching online. Today, 11% of all YouTube video viewing hours is about gaming. Twitch, which is owned by Amazon, is all about gaming. These companies have created an entire vertical of revenue for the game. Then it leads to media rights, cause now ESPN is broadcasting, TSN is broadcasting. Then at leads to sponsorship rights. You can see how the business model has morphed, evolved and improved significantly for these game manufacturers, which I find super interesting. I never thought in my lifetime that people would go and fill stadiums to watch other people play games. But they have. And so, when I look at this and I look at how it's just starting now, you've got 5G coming. When 5G comes, it means that graphics are going to improve in games, it's going to be faster to play online. 5G is going to change a lot of things of course, but gaming is definitely one of them. You're seeing it, and Fortnite is a great example. You know the average revenue generated per user is getting close to $100. It's $96 right now per user. Give you something to equate that to the average revenue per user on Facebook, Google, Twitch is about $25. Fortnite is generating four times more revenue per user than some of these others because they've built a great business model off of this. I mean, how many times do you here this story, that my teenager needs to take my credit card. That's why they use PayPal now because they want to buy boosters and weapons and things like that. I look at all of that and I think this is a real business. A lot of people have their eyes on this sector. And I thought, okay, so I get the business model, I get the investment case; let's create a passive index. It's passive market cap weighted.  We just launched it last month. So, it's very new. Probably my favorite ticker that we have as well. The ticker for it is here. So far so good.   Rob: Nice. Okay, good. Hey, you guys also have some income stuff as well as some actively managed. Real briefly want to touch on some of the covered call strategies that you guys use. Generally, why would someone want to do that?   Raj: Yeah, covered call strategies are interesting because what they could do is, they could subsidize income and they can help potentially moot some of the downside risk. Effectively, the way a covered call would work is you are going to end up giving up a little bit of your upside potential, but you're not going to have as much downside risk as well. And in return for that, you're going to generate some yields. There're premiums generated based on the covered calls. We have one fund, the ticker's life that's global healthcare. It's a passive index of the 20 largest global healthcare companies. And then our team does an active covered call overlay on up to a third of the portfolio. They take a passive, and they put a covered call overlay onto it. We also have done the exact same thing for big US banks. And as I mentioned before, we just launched one on materials and mining. Right now, depending on the fund, those are our three covered calls strategies. Right now, between 7 and 8%, a yield that's being generated between the dividends on the stocks, plus the premiums from the calls. And then the other one that has, as I mentioned at the beginning, emerged as our flagship, is our preferred share fund. I think it's starting to get a lot more attention now, perhaps have been beaten up over the last six to nine months. It's not been easy for them, but where can you get a 5.5 to 6% tax advantage yield in today's world, pretty tough to find. It's pretty tough to find …   Rob: Doesn't exist really. I mean there's a real estate space that can give you something comparable, but it's a different risk profile for sure. Different volatility profile tool.   Raj: Absolutely. I think that fund is going to start resonating again as people start to recognize that the pref space, because the pref space is one of the only sectors or asset classes that hasn't recovered yet, unlike the equity markets. We think that over the next little while that fund's going to perform well.   Rob: All right folks, you heard it here, the preferred market's going to come back. Fantastic, great to have you here. Appreciate the time. Always good to talk about ETFs, huge part of, I think any portfolio managers toolbox, especially the niche stuff that you guys are doing really, really interesting. We're thankful for your time. Thanks for being here.   Raj: Thanks.

Datavest CEO & Founder Rob Nicholas Stone discusses the monetization of private data through his blockchain based application DATAVEST, a cooperative that monetizes user data and pays back individuals in the form of datanotes.Transcript:INTROMethod to the Madness is next.You're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating innovators. Last time on Method to the Madness we talked with Block chain at Berkeley about block chain technology and what that means. Today we're going to be talking with Rob Nicholas Stone, the founder and CEO of DATAVEST, an application that sits on top of this block chain technology.LISA: Thanks for coming in Rob. ROB: Yeah, absolutely!LISA: What is DATAVEST?ROB: DATAVEST is a way for individuals to monetize the value of their personal data. LISA: How is that different from what's going on right now? Rob: Data right now is being monetized. It's being capitalized by some of the largest corporations. And they're able to do that because they have the ability to kind of aggregate all of this data from multiple sources from millions of users. What we're saying is that it's an unfair exchange and the value of your data, the data that you're providing to these companies is greater than the value that is returned to you and it's driving up the largest market capitalizations of the largest kind of Internet platforms.LISA: So it sounds like you're creating a meta transaction in which the intrinsic value of my data is more than just what I'm giving to Facebook or whatever.ROB: Individually we don't have much leverage negotiating a fair price for our data. There's a value premium when that data is aggregated. It's been difficult to find a mechanism for allowing individuals to share that data and benefit from the aggregate value that's generated by a platform like Facebook. One of the challenges we had initially was trying to figure out how do we value data is it a pro-rata share of current revenue that that's generated from that data. Is it the kind of commodity price wanted sold by maybe a data broker? or in the context of Facebook and Instagram and Google and Amazon, they're able to capitalize the value because this data, even if they don't know what the application is going to be in the future they're able to price that into the current value of the company. One way that you could look at it is looking at the market capitalization of say Facebook and dividing by the number of users of Facebook. And that's going to be a much larger number than the current revenue of Facebook divided by the number of users.LISA: I'm curious why you wanted to do this because reading about block chain technology the history of it, originally it was of culturally and socially revolutionary idea. Since that time about 10 years ago, I feel like it's lost a little bit of that sheen but what you're doing is sort of a throwback to that original idea which is that it belongs to the people. ROB: Right. I knew that everybody had this form of capital that was extremely extremely valuable. And I also knew that in order to appropriately monetize this data, individuals had to have ownership over the application of the data. And so the first two months was basically me trying to figure out how to provide individuals with how to give them a vested interest in the applications that are built atop the aggregate data that's provided. The first idea was we would basically issue individual stock in our company and that company would use this data and monetize it and capitalize it and they would have this vested interest not just in the current value of their data but also the future value. Obviously that for millions of people would be extremely difficult to do. It would be almost a logistical nightmare to pull off in. And so that's where cryptocurrency came into the equation through block chain, through smart contracts. There's a way to design a platform and issue this currency that is similar to equity in a sense, in that it provides individuals with a vested interest in the platform in the application. And so that that's kind of how I arrived at the block chain space.LISA: What is the problem DATAVEST is trying to solve?ROB:A lot of the inequality or injustice right now occurs around this asymmetry of information. Whenever a corporation or a company or organization has more information about you than you have about them, it creates an inbalance. The reason why we decided to issue a digital currency in exchange for data is that I see currency as a form of language and it's a means, a tool of communicating and exchanging value. And what's interesting about data information knowledge is when it's exchanged there's no less of it in the hands of the one transacting it. If I explain an idea to you, I still have the idea and now you have it too. There's a greater supply. There was a book called Unjust Deserts written by Gar Alperovitz and he lays out the idea of this technological residual and it's kind of the gains in productivity not attributed to say capital or labor but is a product of technological advance generally speaking, where it's difficult almost impossible to attribute individual credit for this social phenomenon, but what capitalism tells us to do is is ascribe individual credit for the product of a social phenomenon. Similar to language, a piece of data or a word has very little meaning without the alphabet, without the multiple arrangements of those words and concepts and so similar to this our data doesn't have much value alone when it's siloed. This has been the challenge is that that individuals don't have a way to benefit. It's almost as if language has been co-opted or or taken, monopolized by a lot of these companies and corporations. The reason why we created DATAVEST was to create a platform, a cooperative platform, that basically co-ops back this data and information that's been taken from us and allows us to benefit in this common language through this digital currency.LISA:That's revolutionary. It reminds me of Marx and Veblen. Where did you begin to start thinking about these kinds of ideas?ROB: Maybe Veblen, actually. It's funny that you bring that up. He wrote about this idea of absentee ownership when capital is invested by those not vested in the in the company that that capital goes towards. It creates a kind of perverse incentive. If individuals had ownership and they were also the consumers within a company, the incentives are not really to to maximize profit at the expense of higher prices for consumers. I guess another way to put it is if consumers were the owners what would that look like? Right now there's a there's kind of a movement applying the concepts and ideas of cooperatives to Internet platforms. It's called Platform co-operative-ism and it's a guy named Trevor Schultz. He's a professor at the New School in New York and he's written a lot about this. If you look at maybe Uber and what that would look like as a platform co-operative, you'd have the situation where the drivers and the riders are the owners of the ride share company or YouTube platform where the content creators and users benefit from the value created in a business sense by that platform or AirBNB owned by those running out their houses and those using it. It's just, it's an alignment of incentives that I think is more rational. If the economy is unequal for rational reasons that's one thing. But when it's completely irrational and I couldn't ignore it any longer, if if you look back at kind of the progression of capitalism from laissez faire in the 19th century John Maynard Keynes basically kind of saving capitalism in a sense by figuring out a monetary policy that could or fiscal spending that could increase employment. But in finance everyone always talks about inflation, as well, we need a healthy level of inflation. But when you think about it its inflation is really just a decrease in purchasing power and Keynes, his kind of insight was that it's difficult to lower nominal wages. But if you print more money you devalue the currency, you can lower real wages without kind of workers knowing about it. So it almost seemed like a trick. It's like you're tricking labor into thinking that they're getting paid the same amount, that excess profit from real wages going down, you know goes towards the owners of the company. And so the stock market benefits from that. Seeing the irrationality there, this plays into kind of how we've created our currency. It's not like the Federal Reserve where a couple banks have access to the discount window. It's every single individual has direct access to the analog of the Federal Reserve. You have a direct line into creating new money and it goes to you, not to some large institution.LISA: What are some of the challenges that you're facing right now?ROB: I think the principal challenge is explaining a new idea and trying to communicate something really that hasn't been done successfully before.LISA: Why did you choose the co-op structure?ROB: I don't know if you've ever used Apple Itunes. It's basically data as a service or software as a service where you subscribe to a service and pay a fee. We're kind of turning that on its head. The future revenue that could be generated by this data needs to stay in the hands of those who produced it. If you were structuring this as a C corporation where the data was owned by conventional corporate structure. What happens when Amazon or some platform wants to buy all of the data and then what happens to the value of the currency when all of a sudden you know whoever is acquiring the information the data decides to use that monetize that more for their existing shareholders? We've created a co-operative where the data is always owned by the individuals who are producing the data. We own this data.Companies can only subscribe to it and they never own.ID/BREAKIf you're just tuning in you're listening to method to the madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. Today I'm speaking with the CEO and founder of DATAVEST, Rob Nicholas Stone. As we continue our de-mystification of block chain technology and the token economies.LISA: A member of your board recently told me that you were the most dangerous man in America. What do you think he said that?ROB: So I think the reason why he said that was when I first met with him I laid out a plan for disrupting not only Silicon Valley but also Wall Street and fiat currency and how to go about creating a new non-sovereign alternative to national fiat.LISA: What's your background your history how you came to this idea?ROB: It came about in kind of a strange way. I'd done a lot of work in microfinance in Argentina. I worked at Morgan Stanley working kind of closely with their Institute of Sustainable Investing, so socially responsible investing and it was always about how do we direct capital to where it's most productive. The insight or the 3:00 a.m. epiphany for me was that everybody already has a form of extremely valuable capital. They're just they just don't have the framework to monetize it and receive the full value of that data.LISA: How long is that when that light bulb went off?ROB: That's about eight months ago. LISA: Well people are talking about universal basic income now. And to me this is sort of a workaround to that. I could get money from my data every month instead of trying to figure out a universal basic income through the federal government.ROB: Right. And we framed it sometimes this way. It seems strident to kind of imagine this could actually provide consistent guaranteed level of income to individuals but it really is, it is a private sector mechanism for UBI that requires no subsidies no welfare just receiving kind of the value that you're already creating. Back in 1965 Lewis Kelso, he is kind of the founder the creator of the Employee Stock Ownership Plan, and he said that the challenge of our age is figuring out a way that workers or individuals can take ownership in the technology that's essentially replacing them. Thinking currently about that, what's driving the technological advances that we're seeing right now? A lot of it is this networked data and so you could achieve two things at once, you allow individuals to have access to a form of capital and at the same time that capital happens to be the core ingredients, the fuel that's driving the technological advances that we're seeing currently. So it's a way to gain ownership over this technology for anyone essentially with a with a smartphone and internet connection is able to accrue value.LISA: Where do I find out about this?ROB: It will be on a mobile app so you download the app and you're presented with, we're calling them data funds, that it could be a specific sector or a company innovative new technology and you're able to invest your data into that company and receive an asset that's derived from that data. We're calling them data notes. Users will receive this immediately upon the investment of their data.LISA: Give me an example of a company that I would say OK I'm going to open my data to you.ROB: An example that I think really drives this point home is, I don't know if you've ever used Twenty-Three and Me? There's nothing more personal than our genetic information or genetic data and in companies like this are able to aggregate millions of potential volunteers who are or are willing to provide this and sell that off to pharmaceutical companies to create some of the most profitable new drugs or treatments or therapies and the individual is not compensated.LISA: In fact, we have to pay to actually do it.ROB: Right. What we're trying to do is create a way for individuals providing data such as this to drive some of the most innovative kind of medical breakthroughs but also be vested in the value that's created from its application and the application is great. It's just the fact that those who are creating this information, this data, are forgotten about. One example is that hedge funds are basically purchasing your data there. They're going to companies such as Yodaly that are transaction aggregators and they're looking at kind of trends in our spending and they're trading on that information. Hedge funds are really some of the biggest buyers of this type of data. They call it alternative data. Hedge Fund wants access to some alternative data, some transaction data that they're already collecting from us. What we would require is that they subscribe to access this information that's totally anonymized. They don't really care who you are. They just want the data and they want to pick up trends in consumer preferences and what people are buying and they're able to trade on that. So data in that revenue that they pay will be rerouted through smart contracts and this gets back to the value of the block chain to repurchasing the currency on the secondary market and compensating individuals who actually provided that data. This is a form of ownership.LISA: So if I'm a member of this, will I have like a little token bank on my computer and every now and then I see some monetary value?ROB: That's right. You'll have a wallet. LISA: So I don't need a bank for this. ROB: You don't need a bank. The idea getting back to kind of the idea of universal basic income is that we wanted anyone in the world to be able to gain access to this. Anyone with a smartphone and internet connection is able to start accruing this capital that they already have. When you kind of sit back and think about it, they're making billions of dollars based on data that we've provided them with. What we're thinking about is how to use our own information, share it, cooperatively own it, and monetize it kind of directly. The future revenue that we create at DATAVEST through aggregating this information is directly driven back into the value of the currency. As revenue comes in, that revenue is redirected into supporting the value of the currency.LISA: So let's say I have two hundred of your one of your tokens called?ROB: Data notes. LISA: OK. Data notes. Where can I spend those?ROB: Initially you're able to convert those into U.S. dollars. They're completely liquid. So you're able to exchange them for other digital currencies or you're able to just cash them out and we're using Ethereum. And it's done through Etherium. LISA: You're letting Etherium do your mining?ROB: Right. LISA: So you don't have to worry about massive computers. ROB: Right. LISA: Why did you choose Etherium?ROB: We chose Etherium, a technology that allows us to design a platform that works for us, because of the ability to design smart contracts that achieve the purpose of our intention.LISA: What is a smart contract? What does that mean?ROB: The reason why DATAVEST is using smart contracts is a lot of crypto currencies right now, they haven't figured out a way to have the off chain organization or company benefit the currency directly. So what we've done is we've created a protocol or smart contract that as DATAVEST as a platform generates revenue, we have that revenue going directly into supporting the value of the currency and that's done through our currency repurchase protocol. Which, it's basically like a stock buyback by a company where the company wants to return value directly to shareholders by buying stock on the market and taking it back as treasury stock. You increase demand, you reduce supply, and that benefits our end users and they have a vested kind of interest in almost a form of ownership in the platform. You can put anything, you could almost put anything in into it, any kind of contract. It triggers an event based on something happening off chain. So as revenue comes in, that triggers the repurchase of currency without any intermediary. So it's rules-based governance of monetary policy essentially. What we've done by creating kind of a cooperative structure with smart contracts is that there's kind of two extremes right now. You have the kind of purist crypto currency folks that they don't want anything off chain. They don't want to leave any kind of room for active governance. And then you have on the other side permission block chain, which basically means you know it's a corporation is calling all the shots and determining everything. We tried to find a middle ground where there's a democratic processes in place through the co-operative and there is a level of governance that can kind of manage the supply of this currency in a rational way.LISA: Where does the U.S. government come in or any government come into play here? If I'm a user and I start getting money from my data, my private data, say I'm starting to accumulate some tokens. Is that money taxed?ROB: It should be. It should absolutely be taxed. And the question, the outstanding question still for us, since this is really new territory, is how is it going to be treated? If you're being compensated for your investment of data, is that being treated as income? Or is that data considered an asset that you're exchanging for an equivalent amount of value? My opinion is that it should be considered an asset, a form of capital, and that capital exchange for data notes represents an equivalent exchange that you would be…your cost basis would be the market value of data notes at that time.LISA: Right. And so if they go up them I'm taxed on the gain. ROB; That's right. LISA: When do you expect to go live with DATAVEST as an application?ROB: Right now we're planning within the next six to eight months a private beta or a closed beta to recruit the pioneer users of this application. We're planning our full launch to be shortly after that ,hopefully within nine to 12 months we'll have this, you'll be able to start making money from your data.LISA: An idea like this seems very disruptive to say Facebook. Why do you think of Facebook or Google or one of the other overlords wouldn't enter into this marketplace? What are their constraints doing something like this or do they have constraints?ROB: They do and I get this question a lot. It's well OK. You're doing this you're a small startup. You have these billion dollar platforms that you're potentially disrupting. What prevents them from doing the same thing. And their challenge is that they were started in a way that the incentives between their users and the shareholders of those companies aren't aligned. And so the more that a shareholder makes, the less money there is available to users to monetize. So if one of these platforms, all of a sudden Zuckerberg decided to kind of monetize data for his users rather than shareholders, what would happen is, well, he'd get sued I think.LISA: By the shareholders?ROB: Right. They've created a zero sum game where –a situation where one wins at the other's expense. And so we design DATAVEST to align the incentives between those who are funding our startup our platform that we're building and the users that are going to be creating the preponderance of value of the platform. When I bring up the idea of capitalized value of data, just meaning that this data is being priced based on its its future revenue that it potentially could generate, the mechanism that DATAVEST is using is, we're issuing a form of digital currency directly for the investment of data. Data is an asset. It's a strange asset but it's an investable asset. When you invest it, you want to be entitled to kind of the future revenue generating potential that it creates. So we're not tying it to how much capital you already have, how wealthy you are. Anyone can gain access to this and actually the only way to gain access to this is through providing this asset that doesn't cost you any money. It's just utilizing and benefiting you for the capital that you already have.LISA: So do you know who your target beta is going to be? Is it going to be a city? Is it going to be a certain demographic of people? Do you know that yet? ROB: Yes. So we're based out of Pasadena, California. And so we're actually working at my house in Altadena. We converted are barn into an office and we kind of have an urban ranch and horses and donkeys and chickens and it's kind of a fun corporate headquarters but we’ll probaby have to move soon. But you know it's been good while it lasted but so we're thinking Pasadena just maybe an interesting place. There was research done that Pasadena will be kind of representative of the demographics within the U.S. as a whole and I think it was like 15 to 20 years. So we think it's a would be a good kind of case study or a good place to do this. LISA: And you have a child, a two year old son?ROB: Yep yep turns two March 26.LISA: Well I have to ask you..you're pretty deep into this new technology, block chain and the token economies. Do you have any particular fears for your child as we move forward or are you optimistic?ROB: I guess if you kind of imagine all potential futures right now where we are, it's difficult. I don't wanna be negative but it's difficult to see one that is going to make sense or I'm going to be happy with for him and that's part of why I'm doing this is, you have four, really four companies that are as Jaron Lanier calls it the siren servers that are collecting all this information on all of us. And you know one worry and it's not it's not an irrational concern is that what happens when one of these companies develops a technology through using this data our data, big data is our data, and using that to develop A.I. They're using machine learning and when they get to a point where they're so far ahead of everyone else it's going to be very difficult to catch up. So I guess my concern is that they do kind of have a breakthrough in this area. It's going to be tough to kind of catch up with that technology for anyone else. And that's going to only be benefiting the same or tiny kind of small number of people.LISA: So it sounds like your approach at DATAVEST is very democratic and an opportunity to bridge the you know, we talk about the 1 percent. It sounds like that big divide could possibly be bridged if everyone gets compensated for their private data.ROB: That's exactly right. And and we get rid of this asymmetric information that’s of companies whether it's financial institutions or these Internet platforms that are kind of using our information against us that we think we have to take ownership over it and be entitled to kind of the value that it creates and have that be shared.LISA: What's coming up for DATAVEST in the future?ROB: If we imagine that enough of us sign up and decide to take ownership back of this information, this data, there's an opportunity that once you get to a critical mass, we're hoping we can sign up a million users within the first year, that at some point you don't want to be selling or brokering this data to third parties who are then benefiting making all the money essentially. So asset management firms, hedge funds, they’re they're big buyers of this type of data, that would be transaction data, geo-location data.They're kind of buying this up wherever they can get it. And it would make too much sense not to take that in-house. So we've come up with the idea, this is kind of our Second Stage part of this, that we could create a cooperatively owned hedge fund. And the interesting thing about a hedge fund is most people can never invest in one. But the ironic part I guess is that everyone can actually own a hedge fund company. And so there's an opportunity that we can cooperatively own this investment firm that is directly trading based on our information and we're directly benefiting from it. We would have all of that revenue driven back into the hands of the users. And it's almost the portfolio managers dream come true to have direct access and intel from individuals all across the world be able to look at the trends, of the change in demand, consumer purchases, even pose questions. And the interesting thing from an investment application is that the data value of some of the poorest people in the world is actually greater than the data value of individuals in the U.S. And so if we're only monetizing this data based on this advertising model, that would only benefit wealthier individuals. But what this does is anywhere there's anywhere there's asymmetric information a profit can be made and that profit, and there's less information and a lot of these frontier and emerging markets that we have the opportunity that any intel or any information they provide on prices that they're facing is essentially tradable information, that can that can return value to those individuals and put them on the map and give them a form of capital that they've never had.LISA: I know there's going to be a lot of interest in this. So is there a way that listeners can reach you or DATAVEST? Is there a website? ROB: Absolutely! Our website is DATAVEST.org and my email is Rob at DATAVEST dot org. There is a place where you can put your e-mail to kind of sign up to be one of the first users of this.LISA: Wow! thank you for being on Method to the Madness and once you launch, I'd love to have you back on. ROB: You'll be investing your data soon.LISA: I will be investing my data. Thank you.ROB: Thank you.OUTRO:You've been listening to Method to the

Born and raised in Owensboro, KY Has also lived in Alabama, Pennsylvania and Indiana Married 12 years to handsome, fabulous husband Rob They have two adorable children Addison (age 9), whom we adopted from Indiana Jack Walton (age 5) whom we adopted from Guatemala when he was 6 months old Teacher in public schools for 9 years Elementary guidance counselor for 7 Just started a brand new career as the education coordinator at a local college where she also teaches 4 education classes to future teachers Bachelor’s degree and Master’s degree in Elementary Education and her school administration degree as well.  Casey came to know the Lord as a freshman in high school, which is when she was saved, then strayed for a while until she was fighting a battle with leukemia. It was during one intense, scary moment that she found Him again. Casey Hamilton Education Coordinator/Instructor Owensboro Community & Technical College casey.hamilton@kctcs.edu

Born and raised in Owensboro, KY Has also lived in Alabama, Pennsylvania and Indiana Married 12 years to handsome, fabulous husband Rob They have two adorable children Addison (age 9), whom we adopted from Indiana Jack Walton (age 5) whom we adopted from Guatemala when he was 6 months old Teacher in public schools for 9 years Elementary guidance counselor for 7 Just started a brand new career as the education coordinator at a local college where she also teaches 4 education classes to future teachers Bachelor’s degree and Master’s degree in Elementary Education and her school administration degree as well.  Casey came to know the Lord as a freshman in high school, which is when she was saved, then strayed for a while until she was fighting a battle with leukemia. It was during one intense, scary moment that she found Him again. Casey Hamilton Education Coordinator/Instructor Owensboro Community & Technical College casey.hamilton@kctcs.edu