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Spring is in the air! Join us at Londonthorpe Wood, Lincolnshire to enjoy the wellbeing benefits of woods while using all our senses to check for signs of spring. We seek out frogspawn, song thrushes and blackthorn blossom for Nature's Calendar, a citizen science phenology project which tracks the effects of weather and climate change on nature across the UK. Keeping your eyes and ears peeled to record for Nature's Calendar doesn't just support science. Discover new research that shows how engaging all our senses on a woodland walk is good for our wellbeing, and how different levels of biodiversity in each wood can impact the positive effects of being in nature. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, this month I'm off to Grantham in Lincolnshire, which is a bit to the right of Nottingham and quite a bit below Sheffield, if you're not clear on your geography. Anyway, I'm here to investigate a Woodland Trust project called Nature's Calendar, which tracks how the seasons are changing over time and if, for instance, the timing of spring is starting earlier. Now, if that is happening, that's not a minor thing, because all of nature depends on, well, the rest of all of nature. So if one thing changes, it can cause big changes everywhere. Now, this is all part of citizen science, and if you don't know that phrase or haven't heard it before, it means the data is collected from people of all ages, backgrounds, abilities, not necessarily by scientists, in fact, probably not by scientists. Anyone can volunteer and the volunteering work is incredibly important. Volunteers have been recording the changing seasons with Nature's Calendar for 20 years, and the database they have built contains 2.9 million records. It's believed to be the longest written biological record of its kind in the UK, and it's used by researchers from across the world to explore the effects of weather and climate on timings in wildlife. And a brief word for those who like new words, here's one for you: phenology. That's what this project is all about. The study of seasonal changes in plants and animals from year to year. Phenology. Now, that word was invented by a botanist called Charles Morren in around 1849. But even before they had a name for it, people were busy recording what was happening in nature and Britain was really at the forefront of much of this work. Robert Marsham was Britain's first phenologist, doing his work before the name was invented for his field of study, and he recorded his quote ‘indications of spring' from around the year 1736. Anyway, all of that is a huge historical meander so let's get to the events of today with a real meander around Londonthorpe Woods with one of the Woodland Trust's experts. Here we are. Whenever you're ready! Sally: Okay, I'm Sally Bavin. I'm a monitoring and evaluation adviser for the Woodland Trust and we are currently at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham. Adam: Right, well, thank you very much for joining me here. It's a chilly day, but we're good on the, we're good on the rain for the moment. So what is the purpose of what we're doing here? Where are you taking me today and why? Sally: We've we've come out to the woods today to enjoy some of the wellbeing benefits of visiting woodlands and particularly looking out for signs of spring using all of our senses. So, yeah, it should be quite a quite an enjoyable one. Adam: Fantastic. And this fits in with part of a campaign the Woodland Trust is running. Is that right? Sally: Absolutely, yes, so we have at the moment we're asking people to look out for the vital signs of spring, as we're calling it. So we've picked out three things of interest that are frogspawn, the song of the song thrush returning for the spring, and the first blackthorn flower. Adam: Right. And that's what we're going to try and spot today. Sally: We will have a go. Yeah, we might be a bit early for some, but this is the the interesting thing to see what's out and about at the moment. Adam: And on a previous podcast we were here together looking to sort of identify trees. I'm going to be super impressed if you can identify birdsong as well. Are you good at that? Sally: Well, I know the song thrush. That's the one we're listening out for *laughs* so I'm not too bad. You'll have to test me as we go along. Adam: Okay, so we're at Londonthorpe Woods, which is, happens to be near Grantham, which is where the Woodland Trust is actually based. So all very lovely. Which way? Sally: I assume we're editing lots of… Adam: No, no, no, all this confusion is, is in *both laugh*. That way. Sally: Okay. Adam: Right. If you're hearing noises off, it's because Alex from the Trust is joining us. She's part of the brains of the operation and also doing social media videos. So I'm gonna look particularly daft with my, headset on, talking into a little box. Anyway, so, okay well, we're already leaving the woodlands. That was a quick visit. We're crossing the road. Is it because there's a pond over here? Sally: Yes. So the first thing we're going to look for, is frogspawn. And as we are walking towards the pond, I could tell you about some research that the Woodland Trust has funded, but let's wait till we get away from the road. Adam: I was gonna say we just crossed not a very busy road that got very busy as we were crossing it. Okay, let's go through here, away from the road and into another bit of woodland. Sally: So I think to get to the pond, I think it's that way. And then that way. Adam: Okay, you're not filling me with confidence. You've only taken two directions, and you're not sure of either of them at the moment, but okay *both laugh* Sally: Yeah. So as we're walking along, the idea is to be using all of your senses to engage with the landscape that we're in. So I've just seen a robin fly past there, but, yeah so… Adam: But robins aren't a sign of spring? Sally: They sing all year round, they're a good constant through the winter. Thank goodness for the robin otherwise we wouldn't really have much birdsong in the winter at all. Adam: And they look lovely, robins, but actually they're they're quite territorial, they've, a lot of them come to my bird feeder in my garden and they're, they're proper brave! I mean, I'll go out and the robin looks at me like, come on, get the nuts out, get the seed, they're not scared. They're quite territorial, looks like quite territorial birds, I think. But go on, you you were wanting to tell me? Sally: So one of the birds that we're listening for is the song thrush. That is because, it's a bird, which generally, it starts singing early spring, and it's a species that's been recorded for Nature's Calendar for many years now. So it's one that we're asking people to look out, to listen out for even, engaging all your senses, because it's quite a distinctive song, so if we do hear one, then that would be great. Adam: And then where do they go then, in the winter, then, migratory, migratory, oh, gosh, I can't even say that word properly. But anyway, they're not always here, perhaps is a better way to describe them. Sally: We do have resident song thrush, but it's the singing behavior that starts in the spring. Adam: Oh does it? And is that all about attracting, you know, mates? Sally: Yeah, yeah, it's the the springtime rush for romance, yeah. Adam: Right okay and is it the boys or the girls doing the singing? Or is it both? Sally: I believe it's the males, but, yeah, I'll have to check that one. Adam: Okay. I'll check. Sally: It's usually the males. Adam: Is it? Okay. Sally: But the robins are the exception where females and males both sing. Adam: Actually, do you know what? I've got such a bad memory, but I, we came here, and I remember stopping at this tree because I think you were explaining to me, was it, a little, I've forgotten the name, but the things that you crush up and make ink with that Shakespeare used to write in. Sally: Ah, oak galls. Adam: Oak galls! Oak galls. And I think they were around here. No, this is not an oak? Sally: No… Adam: Okay. But this is, that's right, I think oak galls, which was a great little episode all about, and I've got one on my desk still from this woodland. Sally: Oh, you've not used it for writing yet? Adam: I haven't ground it up to try and make ink, no. Anyway, sorry, I was interrupting. So yes so so the birds don't leave us, but they do start singing, right? A very muddy bit. Sally: Very muddy. Adam: Okay, you might hear some squelching. Oh, blimey. Sally: So that's some good sensory experience there as well all the squelchy mud. Adam: Okay, so tell me a bit about, this woodland that we're in whilst we're going up to find the pond. Sally: So this is Londonthorpe Wood. It's the closest woodland to our Grantham head office, which is lovely. It was it's a woodland creation site, but it's getting, on I think it's roughly about 30 years, probably since it was planted now. So, it's really, you know, well established now, we can start to see lots of different types of habitats. We've got some glades, which is open areas within the woodland, with some nice grassland habitat. There's some dense areas, like these sort of thickets of blackthorn, which we could be checking for blossom. I can't actually see any at the moment yet. I think we're perhaps a bit too too early. Adam: Well, we're going just off the beaten track a bit here into a lovely pond area where, oh, it's it's actually, this is an outdoor classroom it says, so we'll go through this gate and walking up here, there's a good sized pond and a platform, I've lost the word, a wooden platform so you can sort of stand out a bit and it's here that we're hoping to see frogspawn, one of the early signs of spring, even though it's a bit chilly today. So we'll have a, yeah, I'm already getting a shake of the head so okay. Which is a shame, because it looks like there are no frogspawn here at the moment. So one of the early signs of spring is not here. But I suppose just the absence of that spring, is itself interesting, I mean, and in itself, one observation, of course, isn't scientifically significant, but actually, I think what is perhaps really important is that, global warming, changing seasons aren't linear. So we're also getting we may be getting an early spring, but also we're getting more volatile periods perhaps. So it's just up and down. And perhaps that's what we're seeing anyway. No, no frogspawn today. Let's move on. Sally: It's an unusually hilly wood for Lincolnshire. Adam: Yeah. Oh, right. Is Lincolnshire, meant to be fairly flat? Sally: A lot of it's flat, yeah, but Grantham is on this, sort of geological feature called the Lincoln Edge, and it's sort of one big long hill that runs through the county, sort of south to north. And we just happened to be, have found it to climb. Adam: Right. So what is the purpose of this then? Presumably it's partly scientific because you're getting data from a from a lot of people around the country. Is it something else apart from that? Sally: Nature's Calendar as a project? Yeah, so, like you say, it's it's primarily it was set up to be a phenology project. So studying how the changing climate is affecting the changing seasonal events and affecting what time of year they occur. But it's also a really good opportunity for, because obviously it's volunteers that, you know, look out for these things and we need eyes and ears all over the country looking out for these things, and something that you get back from it as a volunteer, is that opportunity to have that bit of extra motivation to keep your eyes and ears out, looking at nature regularly, and with a sense of purpose to do that, which I think is a really good opportunity for people to, to help their own wellbeing. So it just kind of really fits well with what we know from research is, the way to get the most out of time in nature, which is using your senses to engage with it, finding meaning in it, and connecting with other people around it as well. So you become part of this, you know, community of people contributing and giving back as well. So you're providing your data that's, you know, an opportunity for you to, to contribute to something bigger than yourself and to, to have that sense of purpose, with what you're doing. So it just brings it more, yeah, it brings it alive for people, I think, because a walk in the woods, if you're not necessarily engaging with your surroundings, you could miss a lot of the beneficial species that that research showed when people engage with them, they really benefit from. Adam: Brilliant. Sally: I, I, one thing, oh, shall we sit on this log, that'd be a nice little, I mean, it looks a bit prickly around it, but nice to just sit and chat because we've had a lot of hills! Adam: It does have a lot of, yeah, we have had a lot of hills. Sally: So the research that the Woodland Trust funded, I just wanted to talk about what we're hoping to actually do with these findings and sort of why it's all important. So, the mapping that the researchers at the University of Kent have done, to identify those hotspots of, where woodlands are really rich in biodiversity and the biodiversity that people relate to for wellbeing experiences, it really it fits in with the Woodland Trust's focus on being really interested and driven to improve the quality of woodlands rather than just the quantity. So while we do need to increase woodland cover, as you know, just pure hectarage, we need more woodlands, it's really about the quality of those woodlands that we're creating and protecting and restoring woodlands that we already have. So this research really shows how it's important for people that the quality of woodlands is there. Just it just shows how important things like our new woodland creation guide are, which, set out guidelines for how to create a new woodland in a way that's most likely to help it develop into a woodland that's going to be thriving with wildlife in the future. Adam: And what sort of person gets that guide, is that just for professional sort of people who are setting up massive woodlands across the country, or is it something you you might be able to do as a community project or if you've got a large bit of land yourself? Sally: Yeah so it's available on our website so anybody can download it and it's aimed at anybody who's creating a woodland so the principles can be taken on board and scaled up or down to whatever's necessary. So, yeah, that's available on our website. Adam: And, and in the time that, that this Nature's Calendar has been running, have you noticed any differences? Sally: I've been with the Woodland Trust for five years, and so I've been recording frogspawn as my main… Adam: That's your, that's your go to. Sally: Yeah and I like it because it's very, well it's literally black and white *laughs*. You can, it's there or it's not there, one day it's there. So… Adam: And what, have you noticed anything in that time? Sally: Yeah, in my, I mean, a five year span, I suppose there's, there's quite variation and this is obviously just my one record, so it's anecdotal but but there are analysis provided on the website of all the woodlands, the, the Nature's Calendar data and yeah, so I think the first time I recorded it was about 10 March, something like that. And in some years I've recorded it as early as Valentine's Day so that's already past now so this year is obviously a later one. So you know, it, it shows that there is that, the the data from Nature's Calendar is part of it contributes to the State of UK Climate report and the JNCC Spring Index, which is the kind of, the measure that they use to look at the effect of climate change on biodiversity. Adam: Sorry what's the JNCC? Sally: JNCC is the… Joint Nature Conservation Council. That's probably, that might be wrong! Adam: Maybe, something like that. We don't guarantee that by the way, if you're listening, it's just what we think. Anyway, okay, the JNCC…*both laugh* Sally: It's a sort of government organisation. Adam: Doesn't matter, I'm sure they're very important. Anyway, the JNCC, I interrupted your your train of thought. The JNCC says what? Sally: The spring index has moved forwards by more than eight days over I think it's the last 30 years, I think is the data that they use. Adam: And is that a lot? Is that significant? I'm not sure? Sally: It's it's significant when you think that birds will time their nesting, to within a peak kind of abundance of caterpillars, which are all also dependent on the phenology of leaves emerging. Adam: And an eight day difference makes a difference? Sally: So yes, yes, studies of birds like blue tits, which we've said are, you know, so important for people's wellbeing to be able to see birds like that around, yeah studies have shown that they do suffer in years where, the, the leaves burst too early. That means the caterpillars come out too early, and then they are not in sync with that, pattern for when they're, raising their chicks in the nest because they need a huge amount of food to be able to raise to, to raise a clutch of, of chicks. And they do it over a spell of just, you know, 2 or 3 weeks. So a week is a big difference when you think that that's... Adam: Right so that makes it, okay, that's it in context. So they're they're really peak feeding for these young chicks is 2 or 3 weeks. So if, if spring is moving eight days that's over half your feeding time to get a sort of young chick away and stable, is actually there's no food. That's the difference between living and not living, presumably that's a big deal? Sally: Yep, yeah, exactly. And you know, the sort of potential knock on consequences of food chains being disrupted could go much beyond there but I think there's a lot more that we don't know yet. And that's probably just as concerning as what we do know. Adam: Okay, yeah, I didn't, I have to say when you say eight days over 30 years, I went, well, I don't know, how significant is that. But when you say they've only got two weeks to feed these chicks at their peak, that suddenly makes it much more worrying. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. Adam: Okay. All right we've had our little rest. Sally: I think we're getting rained on now aren't we. Adam: Oh are we? Oh no. Sally: I don't know I thought I felt a few spots. Adam: Right. Where to now? Now why am I asking you, you've no idea! Sally: I think this takes us to, this takes us back. Adam: You've no idea. I've got to stop asking you. Sally: We, I can remember on the… Adam: We're just going to go forward. And if you, if you find this at some future period, send our love to our families and loved ones. Sally: Yeah we're still wandering. Adam: Yeah we're wandering and we just left this under a tree. Sally: Oh, yeah, I definitely felt rain. Adam: Okay. A little bit more mud. Whoops. Yeah. My first slide. Oooh. Sally: Oh look at these. Look at the snowdrops. Adam: Oh yeah. Snowdrops. Sally: Now that's a Nature's Calendar event that you can record. But because they're already out we've missed it. Adam: Alright. Oh gosh I saw that little, there's loads of snowdrops! They're all over there. So that's an early sign of spring. Sally: Yeah so next year you have to keep an eye out before, you know, in like January. Adam: Oh so it's not a sign, it comes before spring really. The snowdrops end of winter really. Sally: Yeah. Well, it all depends where you sort of draw the line, doesn't it? It's all a continuum, really. Adam: Aren't they beautiful? Gosh. Sally: And for Nature's Calendar what you, the the key point at which you know, okay, they're officially open is when the flower is actually open like that and you can see in the middle, not, just when they poke through and they're still closed like that one. Adam: Right. Sally: Yeah. That's a lovely display of them. Adam: Yeah. All over. Look, they're on the other side of the path and all these brambles as well. Very nice. It's emerging now. Sally: Top of the hill, can see, we've got a vantage point now, see where we are, out of the woods. Okay. I think that must be about their peak. You know, we're seeing them on their best, best few days. Adam: So downhill now? He says hopefully. Sally:  Yeah. Downward stretch. Adam: Okay. All right. We're going downhill. And whoa ho ho ho ho ho ho! That's like the Vicar of Dibley when she just disappears down a hole, which is much, well it's not quite as dramatic as that, just my foot went into it, not my whole body, but, you know, I don't know if you can hear this, but there we are. It's going through my shoes. I've got wet feet. Whoa ho ho! *both laughing* Sally: This is a wet bit. We should have brought some tarpaulin just to slide down this hill shouldn't we. Adam: Sorry? Whoa! Okay, we're all going over. Oh ho ho ho ho! Sally: You're doing the splits. Adam: Give me a hand, I've got my legs going different directions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Whoa, oh whoa! *both laughing* Sorry! Sorry sorry sorry sorry about that. Sally: Oh, dear. Perhaps this was a mistake. Adam: It's not just me. Sally: I wonder if there's such a thing as mud skis. Adam: Yes. There we are. Go on then, so yeah, so what's the… Sally: What, why, why does it all matter? Adam: Why does it matter, all of this then? Sally: Well, for the Woodland Trust, it's really important to our vision and our mission, we want to create a world where woods and trees thrive for people and for nature. And so there's been quite a lot of work looking at the ecosystem services that are provided by woodlands in terms of carbon and flooding and all of those sorts of things. And a lot of mapping work has been done already to help us prioritise, you know, where is it best to create, protect and restore woods to deliver those particular priorities of different ecosystem services? But this is the first time that human wellbeing has been kind of mapped in that way, to be able to provide insight into, you know, these are the areas that need to be targeted and prioritised to increase biodiversity, particularly in areas where people have not got such high quality woodlands to visit necessarily. Adam: So an important piece of work scientifically, but a great thing for people to be involved in as well. Sally: Exactly. And and another thing that was really an interesting finding, so the researchers analysed their map of woodland wellbeing quality against the indices of multiple deprivation, which is some socio-economic data that's in a sort of mapped, format. And they looked to see whether there was a relationship between the quality of woodlands in an area and the socio-economic status. And they found that there is a relationship. So unfortunately, areas which are have a lower socio-economic status also tend to have the lower quality woodlands, which is, you know, it's not fair. And it's, something that, you know, it's opened our eyes to that to now allow us to think about, you know, how is it best to to sort of consider that when we're targeting where to create woodlands and enhance biodiversity in general. So, so yeah, it's really important for people I think, this is this is a really important piece of work, to help us deliver for, for people and nature. Adam: And if people want to get involved in spotting the early signs of spring, how should they do that? Sally: You can go to the Woodland Trust website and go to Nature's Calendar, you'll find the link on there, and there'll be all the information there about how to sign up and what different events you can record and how to do it. Lots of information on the website. *dog barks* Adam: Wonderful. We've got a keen dog who wants to get involved clearly as well. And so go to the Woodland Trust website and you can follow them on social media, Insta and the rest, no doubt as well. Thank you very much. Sally: Thank you for coming on a walk with us. Adam: Thank you. I returned to the car park muddier, a little wetter, but we have missed most of the rain so that is really good. Sally: It's just starting now. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us. And do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite Woodland Walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Grab your hot chocolate (or mulled wine!) and get into the festive spirit with our Christmas special as we meet some reindeer, talk Christmas trees and explore a small but mighty wood with huge value for nature in the snowy Cairngorms National Park. We discover fascinating reindeer facts with Tilly and friends at The Cairngorm Reindeer Centre, and step into a winter wonderland at nearby Glencharnoch Wood with site manager Ross. We learn what makes a good Christmas tree, how the wood is helping to recover the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, why the site is so important to the community and which wildlife thrive here. You can also find out which tree can effectively clone itself, and is so tasty to insects that it developed the ability to shake them off! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, today I'm in the Cairngorms in Scotland. In Scottish Gaelic, the area is called – I'm going to give this a go - Am Monadh Ruadh. Apologies for my pronunciation there, but we are in the midst of a mountain range in the Highlands, of Scotland obviously. Generally we're about 1,000 metres high here but the higher peaks I'm told get to about 1,300 metres odd, which is going on for, I don't know, 4,500 foot or so. So this is a very dramatic landscape. We have rocky outcrops, boulders, steep cliffs. It's home to bird species such as the dotterel, snow bunting, the curlew and red grouse, as well as mammals such as mountain hare. But the reason of course we are here this Christmas is because it is also home to Britain's only herd, I think, of reindeer. Now, the reindeer herder is Tilly. She is the expert here and I've been braving, I am braving the snow and icy winds to be introduced to her and the herd. And from there after that, we're going to take a drive to what I'm told is an amazing wooded landscape of Caledonian pine to talk all things pine, and of course, all things Christmas trees. But first of all, let's meet Tilly, who looks after the reindeer.  Adam: OK, we are recording.  Tilly: That's good. OK. I'd better not say anything naughty then.  Adam: I'll cut out any naughtiness, that's fine.  Tilly: This is a bit of a rustly bag. It's more rustly than normal but never mind.  Adam: What do the reindeer actually eat?  Tilly: Well, so. We're now up in their natural habitat and we're looking across a nice heathery hillside with sedges as well. You can just see them poking through the snow and they'll pick away at the old heather of the year and the sedges.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: But we manage the herd and we like to feed them. So what I've got in my bag is some food for them, which they love.  Adam: Right. And what's in your Santa sack of food now?   Tilly: Oh, that's a secret.   Adam: Oh, you can't tell me. Oh, God.  Tilly: No, no. I can tell you. So it's a cereal mix and there is something similar to what you would feed sheep. Bit of barley, bit of sheep mix.  Adam: That's awesome. So not mince pies and carrots? That's only reserved for Christmas Eve. That's probably not very good for them, I would have thought.  Tilly: Yeah, no, I hate to say this, but reindeer don't actually eat carrots.  Adam: Oh right okay, well, that's good to know.  Tilly: But if ever children bring carrots for them, I never turn them away because we're very good at making carrot soup and carrot cake.  Adam: Santa's helpers get the carrots.  Tilly: And I'm absolutely certain that Santa eats all the mince pies, so all good. So anyway, come on through here. We're going now into a 1000-acre enclosure. It just hooks on there, that's perfect, it goes right across. We could actually once we get close to these visitors are coming off from a hill visit this morning. So you'll be pleased to hear that I am the boss. I'm Mrs. boss man and I've been with the reindeer for 43 years. Now, their lifespan is sort of 12 to 15 years, so I've gone through many generations. I've known many lovely reindeer and there's always a favourite and you would have seen some real characters there today. And you couldn't see them in better conditions. Anyway, do get yourself down and warm yourselves up. Oh, you've done very well to bring a little one like that today.  Walker: He did pretty well until now!  Tilly: You've done extremely well. Of course they have. He's got very red, a bit like Rudolph. The thing is there's just that wind, and it's the wind that drops the temperature, that chill factor.  Adam: Yeah. So where are we going, Tilly?  Tilly: So we're heading out towards what we call Silver Mount. They're not in here all year. Different times of year, sometimes they're all free range, some of them are free ranging, some are in here.  Adam: When you speak about free range, literally they can go anywhere?  Tilly: Yes they can.  Adam: And they come back because they know where the food is?  Tilly: Yes they do. They know where the food is, they sort of know where the home is, but they do wander out onto the high ground as well, more in the summertime.   Adam: Right. And is that, I mean Scotland has different rules. There's a right to roam sort of rule here. Does that apply to reindeer? Is that the issue?  Tilly: That is a moot point.  Adam: Oh, really? We've hardly started and I've got into trouble.   Tilly: No. Well, we lease 6000 acres, right? So we lease everything out to the skyline.  Adam: So that's an extraordinary range for them.  Tilly: It is an extraordinary range, but they know no bounds. I have to say reindeer sometimes do just pop over the boundary.  Adam: And that causes problems with the neighbours?  Tilly: Well, some like it, some aren't so keen. And we herd them as well, so we can herd them home. And we herd them by calling them.  Adam: I was going to say, do you have a skidoo, or?  Tilly: No, no. Absolutely no vehicular access on the hill. It's all by Shanks's pony, everywhere.  Adam: Really. So you walk, and then you just ring a bell to herd them, or what do you do?  Tilly: And you ‘loooooow, come on now!' and they come to us.  Adam: Right. And so what was the call again?  Tilly: ‘Looow, come on now!'  Adam: Come on now, is that it? OK, very good. OK, I now move.  Tilly: Yes. But hopefully they won't all come rushing from over there.  Adam: I was going to say, yes, we've now called out the reindeer.  Tilly: We've just joined a cow and calf here, who have just come down to the gate, and you can see just for yourself, they're completely benign. They're so docile and quiet. There's no sort of kicking or pushing or anything. They're very, very gentle creatures.  Adam: And is that because they've been acclimatised because tourists come, or would that be their natural behaviour?  Tilly: It is their natural behaviour, bearing in mind that reindeer have been domesticated for thousands of years. We're not looking at a wild animal here that's got tame. We're looking at a domesticated animal.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: It's probably more used to people than some of the reindeer up in the Arctic. So we have domestication embedded in their genetics.  Adam: So what we're saying is, genetically, they're actually more docile. It's not because this particular reindeer is used to us. But originally then, if one goes back far enough, they were wilder?  Tilly: Yes so, it's a really interesting process of domestication of reindeer, which happened in the Old World, so Russia, Scandinavia, inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia. And that is reindeer and many, many reindeer in these Arctic areas, are domesticated. They're not wild.  Adam: And that started happening, do we have an idea when?  Tilly: Probably about 10,000 years ago. But if you go to the New World, to Alaska and North Canada, exactly the same animal is called a caribou. Caribou are never domesticated. The indigenous people of these areas never embraced the herding and enclosing of reindeer, which was caribou, whereas in the Old World it became very, very important to the men, the people's survival.  Adam: And then the caribou, do they have a different character?   Tilly: Yes, they're wilder. And it's a little bit difficult to show today – you see quite strong colour variation in reindeer, which you don't see in caribou, and colour variation is man's influence on selecting for colour. So you'd get very light coloured ones, you'd get white ones in reindeer, you'd get very dark ones, but in caribou they're all the same, brownie-grey colour. Yeah, they felt that the white reindeer were important in the herd for whatever reasons, Germanic reasons or whatever. Interestingly, the Sámi - and I'm not sure if there could be a white one up in the herd here at the moment - describe them as lazy reindeer, the white ones.  Adam: Why?  Tilly: Well, I didn't know why until I worked out why white reindeer are often deaf. So they sleep, they don't get up when everybody else gets up and moves, and this white reindeer doesn't realise that the herd has left them. So they're not all deaf, but certain white ones are.  Adam: Very important question, obvious but I didn't ask it to begin with because I'm a fool. Why are reindeer connected to Christmas?  Tilly: Well, that's a really good question, because actually they think it stems from a poet called Clement C Moore, who wrote a poem in America, he had Scandinavian Germanic connections, called The Night Before Christmas, where Donder, Blitzen, Cupid, Comet, fly through the air with Saint Nick in the sleigh, the little Santa.  Adam: Yeah.  Tilly: But, so that really set the scene of eight reindeer and the sleigh, and that was based on the Norwegian God Odin, who had eight legs and strode through the sky with these eight legs and eight reindeer. Then we have Rudolph, who turns up, but he doesn't turn up until the time of prohibition in America.  Adam: So Rudolph isn't in the original poem?  Tilly: Absolutely not. Rudolph is an impostor.  Adam: I didn't know that!  Tilly: He, so he, it was a marketing exercise for a department store during alcohol prohibition. And it was Rudolph with his red nose, and his red nose is because of alcohol.  Adam: Because he drank too much? So was it in favour of alcohol or was it going ‘what terrible thing happens to you when you drink'?  Tilly: I'm not terribly sure. But anyway, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer was the song, so that adds to it. And then along comes Coca-Cola who used a red and white Santa to promote Coca-Cola at Christmas time. So the red and white Santa is Coca-Cola.  Adam: Right. And the red-nose reindeer is from alcohol and reindeer comes from an actual American poem, of which Rudolph wasn't part of anyway. That's all simple to understand then!  Tilly: Exactly. Perfect.  Adam: Well, we're moving up to some of the more exposed slopes. Tilly has gone ahead. I'm just going to catch up back with her, and ask how she started as one of UK's first reindeer herders. Well, certainly, one of our few reindeer experts.  Tilly: I came up to volunteer and I met the keeper who was looking after the reindeer for Dr Lindgren, who was the lady who brought them in with her husband, Mr Utsi, and he was quite good looking.   Adam: Is this a revelation you wish to make to them?  Tilly: And the reindeer were endearing, and the mountains were superb, and so I married the keeper.  Adam: Right, you did marry him! I thought you were telling me about another man other than your husband.  Tilly: So I married Alan. We married in 1983 and I've been here ever since.  Adam: And so the purpose of having reindeer here originally was what?  Tilly: Ah, good question. Mr Utsi came here and was very taken by the landscape and the environment, the habitat, because it was so similar to his own home country of north Sweden. And he begged the question where are the reindeer? Why are there not reindeer here? And it was on that notion that he and his wife, Dr Lindgren, devoted the latter half of their lives to bringing reindeer back to Scotland.  Adam: So that's interesting. So, it raises the difference of ecological or sort of natural question, of whether these are indigenous animals.  Tilly: Yes. So it's an interesting idea. Certainly, the habitat's available for them and they live in their natural environment. But when they became extinct, or not extinct, but when they weren't in Scotland, some people say as recently as 600 years ago and some people say as long as 2,000 years ago. If it's 2,000 years ago, they're described as a past native.  Adam: So OK, I didn't realise that, but is there any debate around whether they were originally - whatever originally is –  Tilly: They were definitely here.  Adam: So they are native? They're not sort of imported, they have died out and been brought back here.  Tilly: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, they were reintroduced, but how, what that time span is, some people say sooner than later, and Mr Utsi certainly identified this as a very suitable spot for them.  Adam: Any idea why they might have died out? Do we know?  Tilly: Probably a bit of climate change and also probably hunting. Very easy animal to hunt. Are you OK with this chitter chatter going on?  Adam: Yes, it's all good, and a bit of, do you call it mooing?   Tilly: Oh no, the reindeer aren't making any noise, they're clicking.  Adam: Someone was mooing!  Tilly : I think it was the people.  Adam: I thought it was the reindeer making that noise.   Tilly: Not at all. They're very silent.   Adam: They'd have left this podcast thinking reindeer moo.  Tilly: They would have. Exactly. No, they are really, really silent animals.  Adam: There's a very large reindeer there coming down the road.  Tilly: Oh, that's OK, that's Akubra, he'll do nothing to you at all. He's an absolute genuine reindeer. He's lovely. But he listened to the clicking as they walk. You can't hear it because of your headphones.  Adam: OK, so I guess later on I'll put a microphone on a reindeer. That will be a first. One other thing I always imagined when you saw a set of antlers on a sort of grand Scottish mansion, I thought, oh well, they've killed that the reindeer. And actually, that's not true, is it? They fall off.  Tilly: They do. You're absolutely right. Having it depends how you see the antlers. If the antlers are still on a skull, that animal has been killed and there's nothing wrong with that. There is a, you know, the animals need to be controlled. But you're also right. Antlers are lost every year and regrown again, so they cast their antlers and they regrow their antlers. So in a reindeer's life, if a reindeer is 10 years old, he will have just grown his 11th set of antlers.  Adam: And the purpose of antlers is fighting? I'm a big girl, I'm a big boy, whatever.   Tilly: Yeah, mainly for fighting, a weapon. So for the big breeding males, it's for claiming harem for females, so in the breeding season. And those big breeding bulls will actually lose their antlers around about now, their antlers will fall off and then they won't regrow their antlers until next spring, right? The females, little females like this, keep those boney antlers all winter and they use them for competing for food, so they can jab another reindeer and push it off and they can get into the food as a result.   Adam: The other thing I can notice about some of them, but not the reindeer in front of us, but I think the one walking away, although this looks very bony, the other one has sort of felt on it, and what looks like blood. So what's going on there?  Tilly: Yes. So they are the velvet antlers on the Christmas reindeer that have finished growing, but they don't lose the velvet properly and there is still potentially blood in the bone, as it were.  Adam: So there's this sort of capillary underneath the felt.  Tilly: Yes, exactly, because the antler's a really interesting appendage because it grows from the tip. It doesn't grow from the base, so the blood supply has to go all the way to the tip to grow. And the velvet skin carries that blood supply.  Adam: Right. I see. So now the reindeer in front of us has no velvet so that can't grow.  Tilly: And no blood supply. Exactly. And the only way she can grow, get more antlers or bigger antlers, is to lose the whole thing and grow it again next year. Yes.  Adam: So any other serious facts we should note, to inform ourselves about reindeer?  Tilly: Oh, lots of serious facts. So they're the only deer species where the males and the females grow antlers. Every other deer species, it's only the males that grow the antlers. They are the only deer species that's been domesticated by man. All the other species of deer, we're talking about 40 different species, are all truly wild animals. They can survive in the coldest parts of the world, so in the middle of Siberia, the temperature can go down to -72 and reindeer are still living there quite happily.  Adam: It's cold today, but it's probably -2 or something.  Tilly: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Man cannot live in the Arctic without an animal to live by, and it's reindeer that he lives by. Man would never have gone into these areas. Obviously now they're all digging up, you know, getting the oil and the gas and everything. But indigenous man can only survive in these areas if he has reindeer as his farm animal of the north, so they're really important to the indigenous people of the north.  Adam: And in that sort of role, then, you can clearly eat reindeer. Then what else does it provide us?  Tilly: Absolutely. So it provides with meat. There are indigenous people that milk them in season. They have these tremendous coats that are used for covering tents and for people's, you know, clothing. And the antlers? Not now, but the antlers would have been used as tools in the past.  Adam: And have you ever had reindeer milk?  Tilly: I have tried, yes, we have milked the odd reindeer for one reason or another. It's very rich, very rich.  Adam: You have! Rich, is that good or quite fatty? Is it drinkable?  Tilly: That's good. Yeah, it's totally drinkable. Totally nice.  Adam: Yeah, I think yaks or a drink made from yaks, which was disgusting, I found in Mongolia, but I really found it difficult. It wasn't my thing.  Tilly: But it wasn't the fermented one, was it? Because in Mongolia they're into fermented mare's milk.   Adam: That might be what I had.  Tilly: And that is revolting.   Adam: Yes, OK, that's maybe what I had. How unusual is reindeer milk then?  Tilly: Yeah. It's got a very high fat content. They produce very little milk, because if you had a great big swinging under in in freezing conditions, you'd have ice cream, you wouldn't have milk.  Adam: The other thing I noticed that we haven't talked about is their hooves which look quite large and they look, I mean just from a distance, quite mobile.  Tilly: Yes. They are very, very, very flexible animals and their feet, their hooves are very big. Of course, for snow. Walking on the snow, spreading the weight, but also great shovels for digging. So they dig. You know, if you're in two feet, three feet of snow in north Sweden, you've got to get to the food underneath and to get to it, they need to dig. So they're great diggers.  Adam: And your life now here. It's quite a change from where you grew up, I appreciate.  Tilly: Certain years, a very rural life I had then. I have an equally country-wise life now. I will go to my grave with reindeer. They are my complete nutter passion. They are the most wonderful animals to be amongst, they put a smile on your face. They live in a beautiful area. They're just, they're just lovely animals and they give me a lot of pleasure. Yeah, yeah.  Adam: Fantastic. And if people are in the Cairngorms and want to have their own trip to see the reindeer, they call the what?  Tilly: They call the Cairngorm Reindeer Centre. You could do it on the website, you can ring us up and they need to dress up. I'm sure you appreciate you, are your feet cold yet?  Adam: No, look, I stopped off and bought extra thermals on my way.  Tilly: Very good.  Adam: Well, thank you very much. It's been a real treat, thank you very much.  Tilly: Brilliant. Oh, well, thank you for coming.  Adam: Well, I'm afraid I'm having to leave the reindeer behind because we're now heading to a little lower ground to see what I'm told is an amazing forest of Caledonian pine. And to learn a bit more about the trees and their relative, the other pine, which we all know as the Christmas tree. And we're off to meet a guy who looks after the Glencharnoch Wood in Carrbridge, near the River Spey and Dulnain. And now, despite it, it's a quite a small forest, I think. But despite that, it's quite well known for being really important, really big on biodiversity. And it's home to a number of species including, but not just them, but including the red squirrel and the crested tit.  Ross: My name's Ross Watson. I'm the site manager for North Scotland for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. Ross, we have come on an extraordinary day. It has snowed. It looks picturesque, chocolate box, shortbread box maybe, type stuff, so fantastic. So just tell me where we are.  Ross: Well, we're in Glencharnoch wood. It's a wood that the Woodland Trust owns and it's part of a series of little woodlands on the back of Carrbridge between Carrbridge and the railway. And the Woodland Trust has had it for a number of years. It's a little site, only 36 acres, but it's a pine wood site and a really important pine wood site at that, in that it's a small part of much bigger Caledonian forests.  Adam: OK. Well, I want to talk to you about pine wood, because I think it just sort of gets dismissed – ‘oh this pine wood, not important, not interesting'. Apart from Christmas, perhaps, when suddenly it becomes really important, but I want to unpack all of that with you, but just explain to you we're going to go on a little walk. Hopefully you know where you're going. Good. All right, so just explain a bit about where we're going, give me a sense of the pattern of where we're going.  Ross: Absolutely. We're going to take a circular walk around the woodlands. The woodlands here, it's all about community. Everything we do here is around that tree. We're going to walk through a piece of land that's owned by the local authority and then go through our own land and onto privately owned land and then come back to our own land. And it really shows the connectivity of all these different habitats, all the different landowners. But really the path network is there for the community that's here and they are involved in practice as well.  Adam: So. Pine wood. Yeah, it sort of gets bunched all together, and especially the Scots pine I hear a lot about. But there are there are big, big differences and varieties are there? Tell me a bit about them.  Ross: The Scots pine we are walking through are really special species. That's the only native conifer in the UK, right? And that's why they're so special here. Really these Scots pine provide their own habitat all of their own. They're incredibly threatened. As a habitat in Scotland, we've got just a number of Caledonian pine inventory sites. We've got ancient woodlands, designated sites.  Adam: Sorry, just to stop you - Caledonian pine, Scots pine, interchangeable words?  Ross: Yeah, good point. The Great Wood of Caledon was the reference of the name of the forest that was here, the old, the original boreal forest that gradually reduced in size. Partly through climate change as the country became cooler and wetter, but also through human intervention through felling, fires, grazing, all that kind of thing. So now we tend to talk about Scots pine and Cally pine which can be fairly interchangeable, but the Cally pine tends to be the bigger, grander kind of granny pines, these really lovely old things you see in some of the landscapes.  Adam: But that's sort of just the way people use the word. Technically, they're the same thing, but we refer to the Caledonian pine as the big grand ones, and it comes from… so I just want to make sure I understood what you said. The word Caledonian pine then comes from a Caledonian, a forest called Caledonia?   Ross: Yeah, the Great Wood of Caledon.   Adam: Isn't that a brilliant name? So mystical and it sort of talks of Tolkien and other worlds. Wow, wow. OK. So we have the great Scots pine, the Caledonian pine. If people have a general thing in their mind about pine trees, what is special about Caledonian pine? How that distinguishes from pines in other parts of the world.  Ross: Well, Scots pine, as we're walking through this woodland, just now as you look up the trunks of the trees, as you look up the bark tends to go from a kind of grey-brown to a real kind of russety red, like a red squirrel colour. And that's a lot of the red squirrel camouflage comes from that, that rusty colour. So they're skittering around these treetops and they can be jumping around and they're nice and camouflaged because of that colour. So is that redness that you really see? But what we can see in here, a lot of these trees are very even age, it has been quite heavily thinned in the past, but then you come across a tree like this that's got a very deep crown. So you see there's live branches more than halfway down that tree, whereas there's a lot of these other trees -  Adam: Yes, I was going to say it's weird that they've got no foliage until very high.  Ross: Yeah, so this tree here, and foresters may call this a wolf tree, a tree that has occupied a space and it's just sat there and doesn't allow anything around it.   Adam: It's called a wolf tree?  Ross: Some people would refer to it as a wolf tree. What we would refer to that is it's a deep crown tree, not very imaginatively named, but a deep crown tree is really important here because of capercaillie. Now, capercaillie, you imagine a capercaillie's a big bird, a turkey-sized bird, almost waist height, a male capercaillie. And in the winter it will walk out across these branches and it will nibble away at some of the needles, and it will sit there and it will rely on that during deep snow for shelter, security, food. So without these deep crown trees, there isn't anywhere for them to go. So if you imagine a plantation, a very dense pine that are much denser than this and they don't have the chance for any deep crown trees. Then the opportunity for capercaillie here is much reduced.  Adam: Right. So there's sort of, I mean, look the elephant in the room. Well, it's Christmas around the corner. People have Christmas trees. Sort of most people know anything about pine, it's because they have it in their house at Christmas. That's not a Scots pine.  Ross: No, your traditional Christmas tree is a Nordmann fir. A fir tree tends to hold onto needles a little longer than a pine tree. And if you look after the pine, it will retain its needles, but quite often the pine trees will grow slightly too quickly, so it'll be a bit bare as a Christmas tree, whereas a fir tree is kind of hairy enough to be a good Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. And do we have, do we have them planted in the UK as well? I mean just for commercial cropping?  Ross: Yes, as a Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. So the other thing, look, we're in a really lovely forest at the moment. We're the only ones here. But Scotland, the iconic pictures of Scotland, are bare, bare mountains, aren't they? They're not wooded, and yet I've always read that that's not how it used to be. It used to be a wooded part of the country. Why did it lose so much of its woodland?  Ross: Well, it's looking back to, what, centuries ago as the climate became cooler and wetter, the tree line reduced in height. But more recently in the 1800s the Cultural Revolution created huge periods of felling where they needed this timber for industrialization. Trees from the woodlands near here were cut down, they were floated down to the river Spey and then out to Spey Bay and the Moray coast. They were used for underground water piping for ship's masts. Because these trees are, as you can feel today it's a cold place to be, they've grown very slowly. So because they're nice and straight as we can see, they are, the rings are very close together, so they're very sturdy. They're an ideal timber source. But then we start to look at deer numbers increasing and sheep numbers increasing. The more mouths on the hill meant that once you cut these trees down, it was much harder for the trees to come away again. And really, that's the landscape we're in now really. And when we're talking about those very large, deep crowned trees on open hillsides, these kind of granny pines are so picturesque, and really a lot of these trees, there was no timber value in them because they were already so crooked and they were left, and this is almost a remnant that's showcasing the old forest that once was standing there.  Adam: A lot of times, site managers, they're trying to keep things steady in a way, I suppose. Just trying to maintain what's going, keep that going, that's hard enough. Is that the job here or do you have bigger plans? Are there, you know, times are changing?  Ross: Well, this is one of eight woodlands I look after across the north of Scotland. Whenever we're doing anything, no matter what the scale of it, it's not just how do we keep the site going and kind of steady. It's about when we are doing work, how do we add value to that to make it better for the people that are living here? And how do we use that to continue to showcase these sites as the shop window for the Woodland Trust?  Adam: And is the idea here to try and remove the non-Scots pine, so you'd have a pure Scots pine forest?  Ross: Well, the Woodland Trust works on a on a threat basis really. So any tree is better than no tree, right? But if you have got a lot of spruce regeneration that's threatening this ancient wood then we need to begin to remove that. And that's been the case here.  Adam: Sorry I'm pausing because there's a lovely spaniel who I can see wants me to throw a stick, but I won't throw the stick. Very cool dog. There we are. Sorry, we were saying yes, so any tree is better than no tree. But are the other trees a threat then or not?  Ross: Well, the Norway spruce here has been seeding regeneration into the woodland areas and over the last few years we've cleared a lot of that and in some of these nice young spruce, we've been able to provide to the community for Christmas trees, which has been really handy. But all of that is gone now and we're left with this core of, of mature Norway spruce, that a number of them have started to snap so are becoming a safety issue for members of the public using footpaths next to it. But also there's an opportunity there where before that timber dies, we can extract it and it can be useful for the community.  Adam: And you'd replace it with Scots pines.  Ross: No, we're going to replace it predominantly with hazel and aspen. Because one of the slight concerns in having a single species stand, like we have here, where it's all Scots pine, is that there's only one species for the likes of red squirrels or the crossbills. And on a day like today we might hear crossbows coming over. There's only one species here for them, whereas if we're planting hazel, which is under-represented species here, that provides a different food for red squirrels in a different part of the woodland. And aspen is one of the most biodiverse species that we would have in this part of the world. And there are very, very few aspen.  Adam: When you say it's the most biodiverse species, you mean it attracts biodiversity?  Ross: Absolutely yes. In terms of the lower plant assemblage that's on there specifically and insects. And aspen, their Latin name is Populus tremula and the tremula comes from the oval shape on the leaf. Just in the slightest breeze, it's adapted that to try and shake off the insect burden because the leaves are so palatable for insects.  Adam: So the shape of the leaf in wind -  Ross: The shape of this stock of the leaf is oval.  Adam: And that helps shift any insects.   Ross: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: It's interesting because aspen, in my ignorance, I associate with aspen in America, but it's a native UK tree.  Ross: It is, yeah. And it will be one of the first colonisers after the Ice Age. That's, an aspen will have, the seed will have blown down as the ice is receding. But some of the aspen that are here now will be some of the oldest trees that exist in the UK and aspen generally now grows rhizomatously, so you'll see the roots through the forest and all of the suckers will pop out. And the aspen that we can see in the woodland today, they could have been here for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and they've just, as the clone has marched through the landscape, it's just it's moved and colonised these different areas. They're fascinating trees. So when you look at some of the images in North America, you might see entire hillsides of aspen and that could all be the same tree essentially, they're amazing organisms.  Adam: That's amazing. So it's sort of cloning really.   Ross: Yeah, absolutely.  Adam: That's amazing. And also I can see right on the Scots pine behind you, beautiful lichen, which is just a real sign of the air quality here, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't grow and it's just often further south. We do see lichen, obviously, but often I see a bit. This is everywhere. It's a real sign this is good land.  Ross: Absolutely, yeah.  Adam: Good land, good air. Wonderful. Well, I'm going to take another shot of our colleague down below. Hello. Wearing a lovely red hat, almost looks like Santa. And then we'll move on. So we're going uphill a bit, you might just hear the snow crunching under my boots. So this is amazing. A wolf peeking out from the woods, which adds to the fairy tale quality of all of this forest walk. This is not a real wolf. This is carved in wood. It looks really beautiful and it's covered in snow at the moment, which maybe is why I didn't spot it at first. So what's the story here?  Ross: Well, the story here is that Carrbridge hosts the Scottish chainsaw carving competition every year at the end of August, and there are chainsaw artists coming from all over the world to compete here to do some incredibly elaborate carvings. They do benches and three-to-four-metre statues and it's absolutely incredible.   Adam: This is very delicate that I'm surprised this would be done with a chainsaw.  Ross: Yeah, it's a very specialist skill as you can see, and people have to be very artistic. You have to be very good with the saw, but also the bar of the saw is a specialist carving tool. But then they also can use all sorts of other implements to try and refine the artwork itself. And this is just one part of that much larger chainsaw carving trail that's in Carrbridge that really commemorates this annual event.  Adam: Amazing. Well, we'll leave the wolf. It's got even a little dark nose. Amazing. A little dog, a real dog this time. Well, yes, just to prove it. We've just seen some reindeer. Obviously they're a type of deer. Are they as much of a problem as the normal red deer that we know about? So what's your view on them?  Ross: Well, red deer, the numbers are extremely high in some places and in the Cairngorms, they're generally much better managed. But in other places where there just isn't that, that integration or the objectives are yet to be aligned with protected areas, the numbers in those places need to come down, but recognising that there are different objectives, there are different landowners who want to do different things with land. So in recognising and respecting those objectives, but generally, ideal numbers need to come down and they need to come down a lot in order for trees and woodland to recover.  Adam: But that's deer in general, just because it's Christmas, I just have reindeer on the mind. You don't see many reindeer here. Or any reindeer here?  Ross: No, you see them up in the Cairngorms, right?   Adam: Right. Another pitstop. I see some lichen with some snow on it. I should turn them into Christmas cards. I won't, but that's what I should do. So if there was a sort of a final thought you wanted people to take away about this forest or about Caledonian pines you're trying to protect and grow here, what might that be?  Ross: Well, for this woodland, and as I say, it's only 36 acres in size, it's a fairly small wood. But it's not to discount that, and we talk about the hundreds of ants nests, the crossbills, the crested tits, it's woodlands like this can punch way above their weight. But also woodlands like this connected together provide a much larger, integrated robust habitat. And it's just thinking along these lines that this, this woodland, although it has the A9 on one side, it's got roads on two other sides, it's got a forest adventure park there and to the other side, it feels like a woodland that could be squeezed, but it can also feel like a woodland that is a part of this much larger landscape and contributing to that. And I suppose in part it depends on how you view that, yeah. But the woodland is connected to its woodlands round about, so it's definitely playing its part and part of that recovery of the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, as small as it is.  Adam: It's been a real treat for you to guide us through it on such a special snowy Christmas-y day. So thank you very much indeed.   Ross: No problem.   Adam: Well, it's been a fantastic day. Which leaves me just say from the land of reindeer and Caledonian pine, can I wish you a very happy, peaceful and joyous Christmas and New Year? And I do hope that wherever you are, you are able to share the joy of this season and that you'll join us in the New Year for lots more podcasts and tree adventures. Until then, from all of us in the Woodland Trust podcast team, to all of you, can we wish you a happy Christmas and a great New Year and of course, happy wanderings.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Join us for a woodland wander with adventurer, author and tree lover, Al Humphreys. The 2012 National Geographic Adventurer of the Year has cycled round the world, rowed the Atlantic and walked across India, but now focuses on pursuits closer to home. Pioneering the concept of microadventures, Al explains how exploring small pockets of nature in our neighbourhoods helps us to better connect with and care for the environment. He speaks of enabling young people to embrace wild places, and encourages us to take time to be curious and astonished as we discover new places on our doorstep. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Today I am off to meet an author and adventurer, and there's a title you don't get to say, or indeed hear very much. He's the author of a whole ton of books, including Microadventures, which I want to talk to him specifically about, but also books called the Doorstep Mile, Local, There Are Other Rivers, Grand Adventures, Moods of Future Joys, Midsummer Mornings, Thunder and Sunshine, and I could go on and on. And I'm meeting him at a Woodland Trust site called Ashenbank Wood. It's a Site of Special Scientific Interest in the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty and is teeming with extraordinary wildlife. So we'll be talking a bit about the woods and a bit about the sort of adventures he's been on and the sort of adventures we might all be able to go on. Anyway, I'll let him introduce himself. Al: My name's Alastair Humphreys. I'm an adventurer and a writer and tree lover. Adam: Which sounds very exciting. So when you say you're an adventurer, what does that sort of mean? Al: Well, I was slightly hesitant to say that because I confess I feel more like an ex-adventurer, but I have spent pretty much all my career going off doing big adventures and then coming home and writing and speaking and making films about them. So they've gone ever smaller. I began by spending four years cycling around the world, I've rowed across the Atlantic Ocean, walked across the Empty Quarter desert, played my violin incredibly badly through Spain, and then gradually smaller onto what I call microadventures. So, encouraging people to find short, simple, affordable adventures close to home and squeezing around their busy daily lives. Adam: So that's interesting. You talk about the mini adventures. On a previous podcast we talked to the natural navigator, I don't know. Al: Ohh yes, Tristan. Well, he could tell you a lot more intelligent things than I can. He's great. Adam: No, but I think he took very much the similar view of yours. He went, I've done all these big adventures. But actually when you're doing these big adventures, it's all about tech, you know, and I needed satellite link ups and all sorts of stuff. And actually I wasn't, I was really looking at screens all the time. And he was going, the smaller adventures are actually much more revolutionary, because if you go low tech, that's a proper adventure. Just trying to find your way through a wood is a real adventure in a curious sort of way, even more challenging than doing something which sounds really flash. Al: Yes. And what Tristan's done fantastically is taking those skills from bigger journeys down to his literal daily life, hasn't he? If you, I get an e-mail from him, I think it's weekly or so and it just essentially says, where am I now and which way am I facing? And from his little clues in the local park, he can tell whether it's north, south, east, and west. Adam: Yes. No, you're right. I tried. I was very bad at that. And what I've learned, I've already forgotten. So tell me a little bit about why your connection to nature, then, how important that is to you, if at all. Al: So I had a nice, happy childhood growing up in the countryside, so as a kid I spent a lot of time running around the fields and woods and streams and things, so I suppose that hammers something deep into your subconscious, although you don't really notice it necessarily as a kid. Adam: Where whereabouts was that? Al: In the Yorkshire Dales. Adam: Ohh, God's own country. Amazing place. Al: Yes. Lovely part of the world. Yeah, so I really enjoyed that, and then my big expeditions, I've spent a lot of time in some of the world's really wild places and that's a fantastic backdrop to your adventures. But actually my – oh, and I also did a zoology degree. Although I found it incredibly boring, and now looking back I find it amazing that you can find something like that boring. But it's taken me stopping the big adventures, slowing down, paying attention to my local area to build a deeper connection with nature. And I don't know if that's partly just me getting old as well, I suspect there is an aspect of that. But whereas in my youth I was sort of cycling moderately quickly across continents and now pottering around small little parks and I have time to be astonished in a way that you don't necessarily when you're on a big A to B kind of journey. Adam: Yes, yes, there's the mechanics of getting you somewhere so challenging. Al: Yes, and you're on a mission. The mission is to go from A to B and not die, and to succeed. And that's all quite, and the backdrop of it all is this wonderful nature. But the things I've been doing more recently, then nature has come to the forefront. I'm not really doing any big, exciting mission. And therefore the paying attention to the small bits of nature and the changing seasons comes to the forefront. Adam: Yes, I did, I was just going to stop here. We're by one of the Woodland Trust sign posts about fungi and deadwood and the importance of that. We can talk a bit about that. But I was just thinking about what you said. I did an expedition across the Gobi in Outer Mongolia. I was working in Outer Mongolia, and it was, you're right, it was more interesting in retrospect. Because when I was there, we were just very concerned about the mechanics of the day. Getting through the day, making sure we weren't lost, getting food, all of that, rather than go ‘this is quite an interesting place'. Al: Yes. Adam: Whereas, because we didn't meander, you go, I think the importance of meandering and almost lost time, and in a way, I think, boredom. I mean, it was interesting to talk about kids, you know, I don't know if you've got kids, but I think there's a lot of pressure on people to keep the kids busy, get them to this class, to do this, do this, do this. Actually the importance of just going, you know, ‘they're bored now, they'll just go do something', is quite interesting. Al: Yeah. And I think that's a fantastic aspect of it, a bit of woodland like this, isn't it? Is to bring some kids here and essentially say there is nothing to do here, but equally you can do whatever you want. So go on, clear off. Off you go, go climb some of these trees, pick up some sticks, rummage around, see what you find. And that's the great thing of a woodland like this. Adam: Yeah. Do you have kids? Al: I do, yes. Adam: Well, how old are they? Al: Well, they are entering the dreaded teenage phase. So the um, it's really interesting, actually, because they're completely addicted to their screens and that would be their preferred choice would be to live in a damp, dark, smelly cave and never emerge. But when I drag them by their hair kicking and screaming into a wood like this, they're grumpy for a couple of minutes and then I just say clear off, go away and then they love it. And there's a real physical and mental transformation that's clear, when you can, once they get out here. Adam: Yeah. So I think that's interesting. And as a parent and everything, I just wonder what your take is on trying to engage a younger generation with nature and whether that's difficult, how you do it and whether we should be doing that, is that a concern of us or just, you know, let people do what they want? Al: I think it's a massive, massive concern and I also think it's extremely difficult. These screens are deliciously alluring. That's how they're designed. You know, if I was a kid today, I'd love to be just scrolling mindlessly through a thousand videos of people falling off their bikes. If it's endlessly addictive. So I think it's very, very hard and being a parent is exhausting. It's quite easy to not bother with the kicking and screaming, going to the woods, but I think it's really, really vital to do and the reward of when you get them out is of seeing how transformative that is for them, but also for yourself is really good. So yeah, I think screens are a massive problem. I think the nature disconnection of our society is a huge problem, both in terms of our physical health, our mental health, but also with our ignorance to the decline of species and the loss of wild places. So I think it's an enormous problem. Adam: And I mean you know, you're a broadcaster, you create a huge amount of content yourself. So I think there's an interesting question about how to frame that, because I fear then talking about all the trees are disappearing and wildlife is dying and that it turns, well, everybody, but perhaps especially younger generations off. They go, well if it's that blooming terrible, well, I'd just rather be on my screen. So how do you get that tone right, do you think? Al: That's a question that I've been thinking a lot about, particularly over the last year or so. I've just finished writing a book, which is all about exploring your local area, and when I wrote the book, in the early months of it, it was very much a moaning, ranting disaster book that everything's doomed and that it's all ruined. But as I was reading through my drafts, I was thinking, geez, this is this is, well, no one's going to read it for a start. But also, it's not going to encourage anyone. But as the project went on, I realised that I didn't need to frame it like that, because I could look at it another way, which was how much I personally was loving getting out into these small pockets of nature, what benefits I was getting and how much I was enjoying it. And then the more that I personally enjoyed it, the more I start to become connected and the more I start to care and the more hopefully I start to take action. So I think you're exactly right to try and frame it as a positive thing of saying hey, get out into X, Y and Z for these fantastic reasons and then hopefully the fixing the planet part will take care of itself, once there's enough people enthused. Adam: Yeah, interesting. Well, look, we'll carry on, but I said we stopped at this post. So the many dead and decaying trees you find here play a vital role in Ashenbank Wood's ecosystem. And that's a theme you'll see in lots of Woodland Trust places where deadwood is actually allowed to stay. In fact, it's not just allowed to stay, it's positively encouraged because of the fungi and the invertebrates, and then all the way up to the different sorts of animals that can live off that. So what looks like sort of untidiness is sometimes a real sort of oasis of life. Al: And this woodland here was completely smashed by the huge hurricane in 1987. So I think more than most woodlands, there's a lot of fallen down trees in this wood, which I suppose previously would have been carted off and chopped up for firewood or something. Adam: So let's, I mean, we're walking down this idyllic sort of dappled light, coming through the canopy of the still full roof of this of this woodland. So this is really idyllic, but take me somewhere else. So tell me about those adventures that you've had in these distant lands. Were there any particular that stand out for any particular reason? Al: Well, given that we're talking about trees, I spent 10 weeks, I think it was, on the frozen Arctic Ocean, up near the North Pole, which was a fantastic expedition itself, but the small detail that sticks with me now is that to get up there, you fly to Canada, then you fly to some smaller place in Canada and the planes gradually get smaller and smaller and the safety regulations get more and more lax till you're on the plane with people with rifles and harpoons and stuff. But up to this tiny little community right up in the north of Canada and the people - I went to visit the primary school there in the morning just to chat to the kids about my adventures and stuff. And they were chatting about my adventures and they were, the little kids there were amazed that I'd never seen a polar bear. And my riposte to them was along the lines of but you've never seen a tree! Where they where they lived, there were no trees, literally none above the tree line, and that really struck me, what it would be like to grow up in a place with zero trees. I mean, you get polar bears, which is pretty cool, but I'd be sad to have no trees. Adam: Yes, yeah, yes. And what was their view of that? Do they go well, I've never seen that, don't miss. Or were they interested in that? Al: Yeah, well, I guess everyone's normal is normal, isn't it? You know, they're going to school on skidoos and things like that. And so, yeah, it's just fascinating to see the different people's views of normal in the world. And before I started my big adventures, one of the motivating factors for me wanting to go off around the world was that I found where I lived incredibly boring, as a lot of young people do. Oh my goodness, where I live is the most boring place in the universe. I need to go far, far away. And it took me going far, far away to realise that actually the stuff I'd left behind is pretty fascinating in its own way. If only you're willing to pay attention to it. Adam: Yes, gosh, it sounds almost like a line from one of Tolkien's books. There you do a long adventure to find true interest is nearer to home. So I know you've written lots of things, but you've got a book just come out. So yeah, tell me, what's that book about then? Al: So I've written a book that's called Local, and it's about spending a whole year exploring only the single Ordnance Survey map that I happen to live on. So, the whole of Britain's divided up into about just over 400 Ordnance Survey maps. So wherever you live, you could go to your local bookshop and buy your local map. And what I'm trying to do is encourage people to do that and to realise how much new, undiscovered stuff is on their doorstep. Woodlands, footpaths, hills, fields but also towns, villages. What's behind the industrial yards? Like a proper exploring curiosity to your own backyard. Adam: And how much area does one of those maps cover then? Al: It's the orange Ordnance Survey maps. They're more detailed. So it's roughly 20 kilometres by 20 kilometres. Adam: Right. So a fair amount. Al: It's a fair amount, but I've also in previous time spent a year crossing an entire continent, so in that sense it felt incredibly tiny to me. And when I began the project, I thought ‘this map is so small, it's going to be so claustrophobic and so boring'. But actually, by the end of the year, I realise, wow, actually it's enormous. I haven't even begun to cover everything on the map. Adam: So what sort of things did you find there that was a surprise to you, then? Al: So what I did every week, I would go out once a week for the whole year and my rule was to explore one grid square a week. So a kilometre square chosen at random and the random was really important because if it wasn't random, all I would do is just choose all the nice bits of woodland around my map. But by making it random, it sent me off to towns and suburbs and motorway junctions and all sorts of random stuff. And I discovered a few things. The first thing I discovered was how little I knew this area that I thought I knew very well indeed. The second thing that I realised was that, yeah, of course it's nice to go out to woods and hills and streams and stuff, but also I was surprised how much I loved the forgotten grid squares, the abandoned bits, the broken down, fallen down, behind the warehouse kind of landscapes. Like what's behind the supermarket car park? And I found in these forgotten edgelands a real sense of wildness and solitude that I didn't get in somewhere lovely. And this wood we're in now is lovely, but you're not going to get much solitude. There's a lot of dog walkers wandering around. And whereas if you're sort of behind some factory and some regenerating thicket, you think, wow, no one comes here. This feels adventurous. This feels wild. No one on the planet knows where I am. I'm only 20 minutes from a massive city, so I really was surprised how much I liked the forgotten corners of my map. Adam: Well, it sounds romantic the way you describe it, but behind a dumpster or a big factory? I don't really want to go there. Al: Why not? Adam: Because it's not pretty. It's probably got some unsavoury characters hanging around there. It might be more dangerous than crossing, you know, at some wild tundra, so it doesn't attract. I mean, but it does attract you, genuinely? Al: I think I'd have agreed with you entirely beforehand. It seems much nicer to come to a pretty woodland and stroll around there. What surprised me was how rarely I saw people when I was out and about, and we live in a very crowded country. I live in a crowded corner of the country, and yet once I was off meandering, once you're slightly off the beaten track, it felt like I often had the place to myself. In terms of being scared, I never had any problems at all. But I was very conscious that I'm a six-foot-tall white man who's quite good at running and that the countryside in general is not equally accessible to everyone. That really struck home to me in the year, how the sort of privilege I have of being able to essentially wander wherever I want. And the worst thing that's happened, someone will say go away and I go, oh, I'm terribly sorry and be all sort of posh and cheerful and it'll be fine and that's not fair, and it's not right that there's that inequality. Adam: I wonder what you feel because we're talking now, a little after there was a big fuss in newspapers about Kirsty Allsop as children or a child who went off travelling and I think he was 16 or something like that. And it raised the debate whether that's right or wrong and people have their own views, it raised the debate about adventure, what it is, how much freedom we should give younger people. And there were lots of comments, you know, look back a generation, my parents' generation, you know, people of 17, 18 were fighting in wars. You know, the idea of going on Eurorail doesn't sound that adventurous by comparison. But it does engage with the natural world, doesn't it? You've done very adventurous things. What do you think about our position on safety now? The sort of vibe about that? Al: I think a relevant aspect of that discussion what we're talking about today is if you look at the roaming distances that kids have from home and you can see statistical maps of this online of how far our grandparents are allowed to go from home, you know, they'd get on their bicycle with a pickled egg and off they'd go for a month and then come home for their tea. All that sort of stuff. When I was a kid, I was basically in the Yorkshire Dales. I was basically allowed to go wherever I wanted, and then I'd just come home when I was hungry. And of course, I had no cell phone. And then kids today would not be generally allowed that sort of thing, and they're kept very much closer to home. And I think that trusting young people in wild places is an important thing to do. Adam: Well, on that note of wild places and adventure, we talked a lot about maps and if you want to visit Ashenbank Wood and are looking for a map, it is grid reference TQ 675692, map reference explorer 163, and OS land ranger 177. Good luck with finding this particular wood. I hope you enjoy it. And until next time, of course, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you.

Step into the heart of an ancient woodland as we explore Ashenbank Wood, a Site of Special Scientific Interest rich in history and teeming with wildlife. Woodland has stood here for centuries, but this haven is under threat. A proposed tunnel project, the Lower Thames Crossing, could harm the irreplaceable ecosystem and ancient trees here. Jack, leader of our woods under threat team, explains what's at stake and the challenges and strategies involved in trying to maintain a delicate balance between development and nature. A decision on whether the project goes ahead is due from Government in May 2025. We also meet estate manager Clive, who delves into Ashenbank Wood's history, tells us more about why ancient woodland is so important and shows us the unusual approach of strapping deadwood to trees. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Today I am at a site of Special Scientific Interest in the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is teeming with extraordinary wildlife, and I'm told you can stand in the shadows of gnarled veteran trees and even spot some shy dormice, rare bats, and woodland wildflowers if you're there at the right time of year. But it is also a site under threat. National Highways propose to build a new tunnel linking Essex and Kent under the River Thames, and many feel that that will create a threat to the trees and wildlife here. So I've come not just for a walk, but to chat to experts and the first is the man responsible for coordinating the Woodland Trust response to big infrastructure projects and to chat to him about how infrastructure and nature can live hand in hand.  Jack: So I'm Jack Taylor, I'm the programme lead for the woods under threat team at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. And we're at Ashenbank Woods?  Jack: We are indeed.  Adam: Good, OK, sorry, yeah *laughs* I know I should sound more sure, we are at Ashenbank Woods.  Jack: I think its full title might be Ashenbank Woods SSSI, site of special scientific interest.  Adam: Oh right yes, yes. And we're going to see a bit later a colleague of yours, Clive, who will tell us more about the details of this woodland. But the reason why I wanted to talk to you first as we walk through, what is a lovely, actually dappled, dappled bit of woodland here is about your role in protecting places like this from development because, so what, what is your job?  Jack: Yeah, it's beautiful. That's a good question *laughs* what is my job? I I suppose the the base of it, the basis of it, the foundation really is about trying to protect ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees from forms of development, but also from other threats outside of that as well. So non-development threats like air pollution, pests and diseases, deer overbrowsing. Most of my work does focus on working within the development sector and trying to protect against those development threats.  Adam: Right, and you're the project lead.   Jack: Yeah.  Adam: When I first saw that, I thought you meant you're the project lead for this woodland, but you are not. You are the project lead for all development threatening woodlands throughout the UK. This is an extraordinary, I mean that's quite a job.  Jack: Yeah, it's it's a lot. There are a lot of threats to have to deal with across the UK because we're always building always sort of growing as a nation. We always need sort of new forms of infrastructure and new sort of housing. We recognise that. But all of that does come with the added impact of having threats on our ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees, so we have a team of myself and my my wonderful team of four as well.  Adam: Alright. Yeah, it's not big.  Jack: No, it's not big, but they they are enthusiastic and they're great at what they do.  Adam: So this is quite a political area because we've got a new government which has promised to improve lots of things, get the country working, build lots of homes. I think, I think the Prime Minister only recently talked about, you know, we're going to get spades in the ground, we're going to be doing stuff. Well, is it your job to stop all of that, I mean, or how do you balance what needs to be done for the country and what needs to be done to protect woodlands?  Jack: Yeah. So it's so none of this is really about stopping development from from happening and we we have to be sort of quite clear that that's not what we're set out to do as an organisation. It's about trying to ensure that where development is happening. It's not going to impact on our most important and our most valuable woods and trees and that's why we do have a focus specifically on ancient woodland, but and then also on ancient and veteran trees as well, because we know that for the most part, there are lots of really valuable woods and wooded and wooded habitats and trees that are plenty sort of valuable and important. But we know that ancient words and ancient and veteran trees are likely to be our most important sites. We have to focus on protecting those. So we do have to object to some developments where we think the harm is gonna be too great, but we're never really looking to stop them from happening, unless the harm is too great.  Adam: OK. Which way?  Jack: Umm, I think right.   Adam: OK. So one of the things I've noticed before, I mean, when I was following the HS2 debate, was politicians were going ‘it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. We'll cut this down, we're going to replace them. I tell you what, we'll do you a deal, we'll plant two for every one we cut down.' On the face of it that sounds reasonable?  Jack: OK. Yeah, not to us.   Adam: Why not?   Jack: Well, I think if you're, if you're looking at ancient woodlands and ancient and veteran trees, you're looking at something that is an irreplaceable habitat. There is no sort of recreating that habitat in in one space again, once it's been lost and the reason for that is these things take centuries to evolve and develop to create those sort of vital links between animals, plants, fungi, the soils as well. So ancient woodlands are especially important for their soils. So you can't really just take those soils and put them elsewhere because once that happens you completely disturb the relationships that have built up over centuries within them. And ancient and veteran trees, so you're talking about trees that for the most part are going to be centuries years old. How do you how do you replace centuries of development creating these wonderful sort of niche habitats for different parts of our ecosystems?   Adam: And is it, you said quite clearly that it's not your job or the Trust's job just to stop development, just to sort of blanket go, ‘hey, stop building' so is it about going, ‘don't build here' or is it about saying, ‘if you're gonna build here, this is how to do it with the least amount of impact'? What's the sort of your approach?  Jack: Yeah. In some cases it is about saying not, not building here. It depends what we're dealing with, I suppose so it's different if you're dealing with, say, housing developments or leisure facilities as opposed to something like rail infrastructure or road infrastructure, which is quite linear in nature, so they can only really go in one place to deliver its purpose, whereas housing is not as locationally dependent.  Adam: I see. So you feel you've got a better argument if it's a housing project, cause you can go, ‘put it somewhere else', but the train journey from A to B has to sort of go through this area. You're you're on a loser there are you?  Jack: Well, sometimes, but there are there are ways of of getting around sort of kind of impact. I mean it doesn't have to go absolutely sort of A to B in one way. You can think very carefully about the design to try and minimise impact on ancient woods. You can also look at alternative solutions, engineering solutions like tunnelling for example, so HS2 is a good example of that. The Phase One section which is going ahead between London and Birmingham, they actually put in a tunnel under the Chilterns, which saved about 14 hectares of woodland saved these three really good prime areas of ancient wood. And of course the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty came into that in a way, and they were trying to protect that also. But that was one solution to stop wildlife and nature being harmed.  Adam: Right. So that's, was this, were you involved with that?   Jack: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: Amazing. So how difficult was that to get that that project through and try to avoid the destruction of all that woodland?  Jack: Well, a lot a lot of destruction still is happening from High Speed 2. So about 20 hectares of ancient woodland has been destroyed at this stage now. A lot of the sort of preparation works for the Phase One section, that London to Birmingham bit, are now complete. So it it was difficult, but it it the way in which we were involved is we really brought ancient woodland to the table and put it at the forefront of considerations and and gave it a voice I suppose. It's not that it wasn't being looked at at all, but not nearly to the degree that we thought it needed to be looked at. And so we sort of kind of introduced that idea of well look, there's ancient woodland here, you need to be thinking carefully about the design and, you know, you think you're talking about halving the impacts on ancient woodlands from from our sort of kind of involvement and involvement of other conservation organisations in there as well.  Adam: So a lot of it is trying to say, to make the argument, but also to raise the profile of that argument,   Jack: Sure.  Adam: To bring, population and say this is actually a loss. You know, cutting it down is is a loss. So how much harder or easier has it got for you to make that argument?   Jack: Well, do you know, interestingly, I I would probably say that projects like High Speed 2, where there is such a big argument around the ancient woodland has raised the profile of ancient woodland itself. That's one of the sort of silver linings of that project for us, it's put sort of ancient woodland on the map in terms of habitat that needs to and is worthy of protection. So I think a lot of people now understand ancient woodland a bit better and what it is. There's still lots of awareness to do, you know, people just think of ancient woodlands as bluebells, big large oaks and it's not quite there. I mean, they're all so kind of varied in their nature and geographically across the country, but it's got people thinking about them.  Adam: So that was something of a success, although I know more complicated than just ‘yes, we won that'.   Jack: Sure, yeah.   Adam: Any areas you feel you really lost that, you know, keep you up at night, you go, that was that was a failure and you know, we've lost that woodland?  Jack: Yeah. I mean, there've been, there've been some over the years. Back in 2012 a a large quarry was built on an area of woodland called Oaken Wood in Kent, probably taking about out about 30 to 35 hectares of ancient woodland which is massive, massive amounts, I mean, you're talking about in the region it's like 40 to 50 football fields and and and we're actually dealing with another threat to that woodland from an expansion of that same quarry. So yeah, you know that that one is one that gnaws gnaws at us, is that, you know, we don't want to see that happening anymore.  Adam: Are you getting more optimistic that you know the public are more on your side that this is at least something that plays in policymakers' decisions now?  Jack: I I actually think the public have always really been on our side. I think if you ask the the general public, they would probably say to you, we do not want to see ancient woodlands subject to any loss or deterioration, whatever the cause.  Adam: Yeah, I think you're right. But they also say, yeah, but we like cheaper housing and want better transport links so.  Jack: Yeah. Well, I mean the Lower Thames Crossing, which is going to be affecting this site that we're in now, Ashenbank Wood is sort of a prime example of that the the intention of that project is to relieve traffic congestion on the existing Dartford Crossing.  Adam: Which I think actually I can hear in my headphones this, although we are, I mean it looks beautiful, there's quite a lot of background traffic noise. So we can't be that far away actually from from transport, from big roads. So explain to me you say this this particular site, Ashenbank Woods which is a site of Special Scientific Interest, so it's not just any old woods, this is a really special place, is under threat. What is the threat here?   Jack: So the threat here is partially there will be some loss to the wider SSSI ancient woodland in the area when you're losing sort of kind of, Ashenbank Wood itself is not going to be subject to much loss, although there is a cycle route diversion going through the woods that might impact on some of its special features.  Adam: Oh one second just, we've we've just turned off the path, we're just, oops crawling under some trees. I don't quite know why we've come, we we seem to have chosen the most difficult route. Well, it is beautiful because we've come off the path right into a magic dell.   Jack: There we go.  Adam: Oh, look, there's obviously some, I think, probably some kids have built a sort of camp, tent out of fallen branches. OK, so sorry so I understand that this is under threat from development, the the development plan though is what? What are they trying to do here?  Jack: So so what they're doing is they're building a new crossing further to the east of Dartford Crossing, but that's going to involve connecting...  Adam: A river crossing, a tunnel?  Jack: Yes a river crossing.   Adam: But it's a tunnel.   Jack: Yeah, it's a tunnel.  Adam: Why would that? That's that's great, surely?  Jack: Well, the tunnel goes under the Thames. But in order to connect the A2/M2 to the to the sort of tunnel portal, they're going to be going through a lot of ancient woodlands as a result. So just down the way Clay Lane Wood is one that's going to be heavily impacted by by the proposals, you know several hectares of ancient woodland loss there, but in terms of our wood itself, you're you're gonna have impacts on some of the veteran trees from some of the works that are required in here. But you're also sort of increasing the traffic around the area on A2/M2. And as you can hear, there's already quite loud background noise from the traffic. If that becomes louder, it further reduces the suitability of this habitat for a lot of species.  Adam: Right. So what are your, what are you doing?  Jack: Well we're campaigning against it for one thing. So we've been campaigning against it since 2016, trying to bring those bring those sort of impacts down as far as possible. At this point in time, I would probably say that it's unfeasible, that it could go ahead without causing loss or damage to ancient woodland and veteran trees, and that's something that we have to oppose as an organisation. So we're working with other environmental NGOs, conservation orgs like RSPB, Buglife, Wildlife Trust, CPRE to to oppose this scheme.  Adam: So, and if people want to keep an eye on the sort of campaigns you're running, and the sort of live issues around the country, where can they get that information?  Jack: They can go along to woodlandtrust.org.uk/campaigns and they'll be able to find out about what we're doing in terms of campaigning for protection of ancient woods and veteran trees. We've got a really great campaign at the moment, all about protecting ancient and veteran trees and we're stood in in front of one of these at the moment, we call them Living Legends.   Adam: Right OK, what a lovely link, because I I was gonna say you've brought me to a stand. It looks like a sculpture this, so what, so let me just briefly describe this. I mean, it's a hollowed out tree. There's, it almost looks like there's 3 or 4 bits of different trees supporting each other, and you can go hide in the middle. I mean, there's, I'd, I couldn't spread my arms in the middle, but I mean almost, you know, there's probably, I don't know, 4 or 5 foot wide in the middle. It's most extraordinary. What is this? What's going on here?  Jack: So I would probably say this is an ancient ash tree. As trees sort of grow older, they they have to sort of kind of allow their heartwood to to rot away because that's what keeps them sort of stable and secure and in doing so that creates really important habitat for wildlife. And so this is what has happened to this ash tree effectively, its heartwood has sort of rotted away, it's still got this kind of all important surrounding ripewood to be able to support the rest of the tree.  Adam: That's extraordinary. So the the, the, the wood at the centre of the tree, the heartwood has gone?  Jack: Yes, yeah, yeah, cause it it's not it's not really useful for for trees at that sort of point. It's it's no longer the part of the wood that's carrying the sort of the water and nutrients up the tree. That's what the sort of outer ripewood does. So the heartwood decays away as they as they grow older.  Adam: And that's just ash trees is it?  Jack: No, that's that's pretty much all. Yeah.  Adam: How ignorant am I? OK, fine. OK. I didn't realise that that happens to all trees. And it looks like that would cause an instability problem, but this looks actually fairly fairly stable, it's fine.  Jack: It it's it's actually it's actually the other way they do it because it allows them to remain as stable as possible. And I I mean this one it doesn't, it doesn't look in the best sort of structural condition does it, but they need to do that for their sort of physiological condition because if they have if they're trying to support too much sort of heartwood then it affects the trees energy balances. And I mean that there's actual sort of scientific things here between the kinetic and the potential energy in a tree and why why they do this but all old trees do it and in turn it creates this amazing habitat, so you can see all these little holes in the in the sort of kind of inside wood and the decaying wood as well, where insects have sort of burrowed into it, where birds would be, woodpeckers, you know would be would be accessing that as well.   Adam: Yeah. Amazing   Jack: Amazing structures, aren't they?  Adam: And so I'm going to meet now, one of the people responsible for actually managing woods such as Ashenbank, and he's waiting for me a bit further into the woods.  Clive: OK, I'm Clive, Clive Steward, I'm one of the estate managers for the Woodland Trust working in the South East.  Adam: So what is important about this site? What makes this wood special?  Clive: What makes this site special is that it's ancient woodland or partly ancient woodland, but it's also managed as a wood pasture or has been managed as a wood pasture in the past, and because of that habitat it has lots and lots of old trees and old trees is very important in terms of what they support in terms of dead and decaying habitats.  Adam: Right, so well we're standing by this extraordinary ash tree, I mean, it's extraordinary that there's an ash tree at all, given ash dieback, but it's extraordinary for all sorts of other reasons. But is ash a big part of this woodland?  Clive: In terms of its name, Ashenbank, you you think it should be but but it's it is a component of the site but it's not, the majority species is not ash.   Adam: What is this site then?  Clive: So mostly sycamore and we're in the northern part of Ashenbank where we've got a lot of sycamore and we've got some really big old sweet chestnuts, but there are lovely old oak trees and hornbeam trees.  Adam: Right. And so when we talk about ancient woodland, it's always worth, I suppose, explaining a bit about what we mean because clearly will go, well, that's old. But old for trees can be a whole different sort of thing. So how, what, what, what do you mean when you're talking about ancient woodlands?  Clive: Well, when we say ancient woodland ancient woodland is defined as areas which have been permanently wooded since 1600AD. That's the sort of the the the date.  Adam: Oh right, I didn't realise it was that precise.  Clive: Well, it well, yes, it's roughly when big old estates used to produce maps, so they discovered paper and started drawing maps of what they owned but prior so before this this, the assumption is that if it's wooded then it would have been wooded ever since the Ice Age retreated but managed by mankind for for thousands of years.  Adam: So we're, we're assuming actually that ancient woodland is all it's probably been here since the Ice Age?  Clive: Yes. Yeah.  Adam: So that's why I mean that's it's worth I think pausing on that because it's why when we're talking about ‘oh, we'll have to destroy a bit of woodland for a tree, for a road' sorry, we're talking about taking away a bit of the landscape, which has been there since the Ice Age probably. So that's quite a big deal to have done that.  Clive: Yeah, yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. The the other part of Ashenbank, which is the bit we're in is a more recently wooded area, probably about 200 years old. I have a a map here which is not good for a podcast, but I can show you a map.  Adam: Go on go on, we can describe this. Hold on. I'll hold the microphone and you can describe what we're seeing. So go on, yes.  Clive: So we have a a map here of Ashenbank Wood dating from 1797, which shows the woodland it used to be. I have another map showing the wood as it is today. So here's a map from a couple of years ago, but we're we're actually up here, which in the 1797 map shows fields. And now, now, now it's woods. So so basically, what's happened this Ashenbank used to be owned by Cobham Hall, which is a big estate to the east of Halfpence Lane, so this used to be partly of Cobham Hall Estate and in 1790, as many of these big old estates houses used to do, they used used they they employed a landscape architect to make their their grounds nicer as it were. So it wasn't Capability Brown, but it was a chap called Humphrey Repton who worked on this site from 1790 to about 1880, when he died 1818 when he died. And he landscaped the estate and the view from the house over to here looking west to what is now Ashenbank Wood was obviously important to him. So they actually planted a lot of these big old chestnuts which we walked past, which date from 200 years ago.  Adam: Which is very nice and we often hear about cutting trees down and looking at old maps going ‘oh, we've lost all that wood', here's an example of the reverse to actually that's a good nature story.  Clive: Yeah, yeah, definitely it is. Yes. As you get older, as they get older, these trees there are microhabitats which develop rot pockets, branches fall off, they they rot, big holes develop and that that's these microhabitats which are home to what's called saproxylic species.   Adam: OK, that's a new word, saproxylic?  Clive: Saproxylic. So saproxylics are are basically insects and beetles and flies which only exist in dead and decaying wood. So if these big old trees weren't around, they've got nowhere to live.  Adam: Right, which is why it's useful to have deadwood on the ground. It's not so, it looks untidy, but actually that's often the richest place.  Clive: Indeed. Yeah, yes, but often, but often these insects and beetles are actually in the living tree, not in the in the horizontal, dead and dying stuff. And it's the living trees, which are are why this habitat is so important.  Adam: But I thought you said you said they're living in the living trees, but but saproxylic means they're living in the dead trees?  Clive: But within these big old trees, there are these rot holes and pockets and little microhabitats within the tree...  Adam: Yes, which are dead and that's where they live?   Clive: Where they live yeah that's right.  Adam: Right OK. Yeah, very interesting. OK, very interesting. Now, there's also, I knew I was told, but I'm completely confused by, an idea that I'm told that goes on here of strapping deadwood to live trees. Did I did I misunderstand that?  Clive: No, no, you you didn't misunderstand it. No.   Adam: OK and you're going to show me where this is ?  Clive: Yep. Shall we shall we go, we'll we'll walk there, have a look.  Adam: Alright. Brilliant. So you've taken me to this tree, a very substantial tree, but next to it, this is the a bit of, what, you better explain, because this is really odd and I don't really understand what I'm looking at.  Clive: Right. Well, going back to 1999 when High Speed One was being built, they took out three hectares of Ashenbank Wood along with lots of other woodland in the area. And fortunately, somebody had the idea of of suggesting that we could save some of those big trees they felled and reerecting them against living trees to help them degrade and and become part of the habitat.  Adam: So I mean to describe this, we've got a very big tree. What sort of tree is this?  Clive: So you've got a big, big oak tree.  Adam: That's a big oak, and next to it is 6, 12, I don't know, 30 foot, 40 foot high dead tree, bit of bark. But it's it's not like a small, it's a 40 foot bit of bark which you have propped onto the living tree. Why is it better to have done that than just to leave it on the ground?  Clive: Well, it's about these microhabitats. So I mean, it's not just propped up it's actually strapped to it, so it's actually quite secure.  Adam: It is secure, that's y your health and safety hat on.  Clive: We had to make sure it was strapped up, but vertical dead or decaying wood is equally as important as horizontal, dead and decaying wood.  Adam: OK. Is it different? What, does it do different things?  Clive: The wood doesn't but it attracts different insects and species so that that that's why so. But in most in most woodlands you'll see deadwood as being felled trees which are lying or windblown. You don't often see dead vertical trees.  Adam: I've never seen that.  Clive: Well, they're often well, they're often felled and taken out for firewood or something but they are important as as a sort of microhabitat for these saproxylics. That that's purely why.  Adam: So the saproxylics which are insects which live on deadwood prefer, some prefer the high rise living of the vertical tree rather than the low level bungalow type living. But what what sort of, do you do, don't worry if you don't know, but do you know which insects prefer living vertically?   Clive: I I don't know that.  Adam: You don't. Somebody will, somebody will.  Clive: Yeah somebody will. But if you look at that tree, you'll see that it's a there's a there's a U-shaped crook 2/3 way up and in that there's there's a there's a hole which has probably got water in it. So water gathers from rain and that's that that little microhabitat will be, something will live in it. And if that was horizontal, it wouldn't be there.  Adam: Right, yes, yes. Well that I think this must be, I mean, we've been doing this for a few years. I've never seen that. So that is amazing. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. So I know that the history of this site goes back quite a long way, not just the natural history, but the human history as well, and am I right in saying there's quite quite a lot of sort of Bronze Age heritage here?  Clive: Well, we've got a Scheduled Ancient Monument which has been dated to between 2000 and 1500 BC, which is a big burial mount and it is scheduled and it's, you know, English Heritage monitor it and we have to make sure it's free of trees and it's there to see.  Adam: Right. Wow. And it's interesting you talk about it's there to see because we came and parked in the Woodland Trust car park. Free parking, as is normal in Woodland Trust places, first time though a full car park. We are here midweek during the day. I was surprised to see it's full so talking about visitors, this is clearly a, I mean have I just come at a weird time, have they all come to see the Woodland Trust podcast being made, it's right, it's a popular site. That always feels like contention to me because I know you want to encourage people to come, on the other hand, coming in a sort of, destroys a bit of what we see. How much of a problem are the level of visitors?  Clive: Well, we basically have a path network through Ashenbank Wood which we maintain, we mow, we make sure it's open and safe. So most people walk on those those paths which steers people around the the wood, as it were, so and we we don't stop people from walking off the path but most people don't cause it's, you know, nettles or brambles or whatever. It's difficult to do.  Adam: Right, yes. And keeping dogs on the lead and everything. You've been with the Trust for a long time, haven't you, really. What sort of change have you seen in the the the debate around the natural world in your time here?  Clive: That's a big question.  Adam: Have you, I mean, sort of, it assumes you have seen a change, you might not have seen a change. I mean I the reason I ask it is because it feels to me it's gone up the political agenda, that it's not just, you know, people dismissively talking about crazy tree huggers and let them onto their own thing. It's become more mainstream. Do you think that that's it's become more optimistic, do you think it's become more pessimistic, do you think, you you know, it's become more informed, I suppose?  Clive: Well, I think there's a growing recognition that ancient woodland is a special habitat, but it hasn't quite gone far enough to get total protection. But I think there's a growing realisation that ancient woodland is special and we need to look after it. And I think the politicians probably do understand it, but maybe can't quite make that move to legislate against total protection.  Adam: Yeah. And I think that's part of the Living Legend campaign that the Woodland Trust is organising, isn't it?  Clive: Definitely is. Yeah. Yeah, very much so.  Adam: Well, there were two websites we talked about today. So if you want to get involved in a local campaign, search for ‘Woodland Trust campaigns' and you can find out more about the attempts to get better legal protection for ancient and veteran trees by searching for the Living Legends campaign and of course I hope you get a chance to visit Ashenbank Woods yourself. So until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Did you know oak supports over 2,300 species of wildlife? Discover this and more fascinating facts in our episode dedicated to the nation's favourite tree. We join Trust experts, Jules and Kate, at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham, to find some fascinating growths on oak trees, known as galls, and learn why hunks of deadwood are so important.  We then visit the star of the show and 'Lincolnshire's best kept secret' - the astonishing 1,000-year-old Bowthorpe Oak. It's one of 12 amazing oaks in the running for 2024 Tree of the Year. Which one will you vote for? Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, in this podcast, we're looking at the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year competition, which is all about oaks and is on a quest to find the nation's favourite one. And there are lots to choose from. There is the Elephant Oak in the New Forest, the Queen Elizabeth Oak in West Sussex, the Darwin Oak in Shropshire, the Capon Oak on the Scottish Borders and plenty of others to choose from across Wales, Somerset, County Fermanagh, Cheshire and well, lots of other places as well. And you can vote for your favourite oak by going to the shortlist of them at the voting site woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote, so that is woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote and we'll repeat that again at the end of this podcast.   Well, today I'm going to see one of the oaks in contention for the Tree of the Year, the Bowthorpe Oak in Bourne, in Lincolnshire, a tree which has a hollow interior and had previously, that interior had been fitted with seats and had been used as a dining room for 20 people in the past, 20 people! It must have been an enormous oak and that's not a practice I think that's recommended these days. Well, certainly not. But nonetheless it's a great oak which has played a great big part in the local landscape and is much loved, not just in the UK but attracts plenty of visitors from abroad as well. Now, oaks have an amazingly important part in our culture and in days gone by were, I think, central in Druid folklore, for instance, in fact one amazing fact I have learnt making this podcast is that the name Druid comes from druer, the Celtic for oak for the word oak and wid means to know, so Druid means oak-knower, so there's a good fact for you. Anyway, enough of me. I'm off to meet some people who know all about oaks and unusually I am not starting by a tree. So, unusually, we're starting in a car and I'm joined by two women from the Woodland Trust. So first of all, introduce yourselves.  Kate: I'm Kate Lewthwaite. I am citizen science manager at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Wonderful. And our driver for the day is...  Jules: Hi, I'm Jules Acton. I'm a fundraiser with the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So we're going to look at a few oaks today, one of which is actually in the running to be the Tree of the Year, and you can vote on that still and I'll give you details a little later on on how to do that. But first of all, you were telling me that you have a little present for me. I always like to start the day with a little present.  Jules: It's always good to start the day with a little present, I think and here's a little one for you.   Adam: Oh, and it's wrapped up in tissue paper. It's an early Christmas present. How very good. So what is that? OK so do you want to describe it?   Jules: OK so it's a little, it looks like a little woody marble really, doesn't it? And it's got a little tiny hole you can see just there and some extra other little tiny holes. That is an oak marble gall.  Adam: An oak marble...ghoul?  Jules: Gall.  Adam: And how do you spell that?  Jules: G A double L.  Adam: G A double L and what what is it?  Jules: So this is this is incredibly special, so this has in many ways changed human culture, this little tiny thing. Certainly amplified human culture. So this is a gall, which is made by, and it's made by a little tiny wasp. And the wasp lays a an egg in the in the bud of the tree of the oak tree. And it makes the oak change and it sort of changes chemically. It's really strange. And it makes the the oak form this little marble shaped thing on the end of a twig. And that becomes home for the gall wasps' larvae, and so that the little larva grows up inside it and it has this its own special home, but it's also full of lovely food. So that's interesting itself and that it's it's it's it's got this sort of little little home but it what's particularly interesting human, from the human perspective is that these kind of galls were used to make ink for about 1,000 years and the the kind of ink that they made, it was used, I think, until the middle of the 20th century. So kind of until quite recently. So Shakespeare's plays were written on oak gall ink, Newton's theories, the American Declaration of Independence, huge amounts of historic documents.  Adam: So just trying to understand that, Shakespeare's plays were written on ink created by this thing?  Jules: By a gall like, yeah, this kind of thing by by a gall. Yeah. But you can you can still now you can make gall gall ink from these little little things here. So it in many ways it it amplified, this little tiny thing we've got here, amplified the whole course of human history, culture, etcetera in our part of the world.  Adam: Quite an extraordinary place to start our journey today. Wonderful. So, OK, so we're, yes, we'll put that away nice and safe and we'll start our journey. Kate, do you just want to start by telling me what we're going to do when we get out of the car?  Kate: We're going to have a walk round Londonthorpe Wood, which is one of the Woodland Trust sites, one of our thousand woods that we own and we're going to see an oak tree that Jules has found for us to go and talk about.  Adam: Fantastic. All right, well, let's go.  Jules: Well, well so we've just seen some amazing galls on what looks like quite a young tree, it's probably about 30-years-old, would you say, Kate, this one?   Kate: Maybe, yes.  Jules: And, yeah, they're they're bright red and they're on the underside of the oak leaves and they look a bit like cherries and   Adam: I was going to say, the one you showed me was all grey, you gave me an old rubbish one, didn't you? This is what they look like when they're on the tree. It's red, it does look like a cherry.  Jules: Yeah, this is a particularly stunning one, isn't it? And they they are literally called cherry galls. And they again  Adam: They're called cherry balls?  Jules: Cherry galls.   Adam: Galls, cherry galls.  Jules: And they're about the same size as the marble gall that we saw earlier. And I believe they are also caused by a gall wasp. And but what is good about these kind of galls is that they're relatively easy to spot. So once you get your eye in, you start seeing them everywhere, so it's a really lovely thing to start doing, you know, with children or just looking yourself when you're out on a on a walk, you know.  Adam: Wow. So that shows that a wasp has formed that?  Jules: Yeah  Adam: And these are non-stinging wasps, aren't they?  Jules: These are non-stinging wasps. They're teeny, teeny, tiny wasps. They don't look like your your black, you know the big black and and and yellow stripey things that come at your ice cream, not that there's anything wrong with those wasps, they're lovely too.  Adam: Inside that gall is baby wasps? Is that?  Jules: There will be a little larvae inside there.  Adam: And that's what they're using as as food, or is it?  Jules: Yes, that's their home but it's also their food source. And I'm not at some point in the year the the the little tiny wasp, once it's developed, will will kind of drill its way out and then be set free to the to the wider world. But I think we'll find some other kinds of galls, actually. So it might be worth us moving on a little bit and just see if we can.  Adam: OK. Moving on, yeah, that's politely telling me to be quiet and start walking.  Jules: Oh sorry *laughs*  Adam: Sorry, there's a, oh it's a tractor going up and down the field next to us. So that's what the noise is in the background. But the fact that we we sort of just held a branch here and and Kate was already, you know, lots of wildlife, jumped onto her jumper, does raise the issue about how many, how much wildlife an oak supports. And I was hear some fantastic number. Just tell me a little bit about that.  Jules: We know that the oak supports more than 2,300 species and that they could be species that that feed off the oak, that live inside it, that live on, on, on or or around it, that you know they perch in it. So species using the the oak tree in all different ways and they are, they they they're birds and mammals, they're lichen, fungi, invertebrates. All sorts of different kinds of species, but what's important, I think, is that they're only the species we've countered, and I think there are a huge number more that we just haven't got around to counting would, would you agree, Kate? You probably know more about this than me.  Kate: Yes, definitely. And some of those species can live on other types of tree, and some are only found on oak trees, so they're particularly important. And of course, we haven't started talking about the value of deadwood and all those wonderful rare beetles whose larvae live in the wood. So there's lots to be said about that as well.  Adam: I'll tell you what, let's just walk all further away from this tractor, which sounds closer than it is, and you can tell me about the importance of the deadwood.  Jules: Well we might see some spectacular deadwood.  Adam: Oh well, we might see some, OK. OK, so we have stopped by some deadwood and you're going to explain why, is that right? Right. OK. Kate is going to explain. Well, why have we stopped here, Kate?  Kate: Because deadwood is absolutely fantastic and we have a history of a nation of being a little bit too tidy and taking it away and using it for firewood and other things, when actually it's an amazing habitat in its own right. I'm just looking at the variety of rot holes, of larval galleries where the insect larvae have fed, and then the adults emerged. And it is like a whole habitat in its own right. And actually deadwood is really rare. Much of the woodland in the UK is not felt to be in good ecological condition and one of the reasons for that is a lack of deadwood. So it's incredibly important habitat and we don't have enough of it.  Jules: One of the things I didn't understand until recently and Kate, you might know more about this than me, but there's there's different kinds of deadwood. So if you have, it's important to have deadwood in different formats, so standing deadwood so when the old tree is still standing upright, and and deadwood that's lying down on the ground.  Adam: Right. What what why, so it matters if it's vertical or horizontal?  Jules: It it it matters that you have both kinds.  Adam: And why?  Jules: Because, I feel like I'm at the edge of my knowledge, so it's because about it's about different habitats, isn't it Kate, is that right?  Kate: Yeah, I think so. And the the wood will rot at a different rate. It's quite ironic because the one we're standing at now is actually at a 45° angle. So it's neither vertical nor nor horizontal. And of course, oak trees are absolutely full of of tannins, which I think are the same compound you find in the oak galls that enable the writing. But they also mean, you know this huge, great piece of deadwood here could be around for hundreds of years because it won't, it will rot very, very slowly.  Jules: And and one of the great things is when you have deadwood right next to living wood as well, because that creates all these different conditions which will suit different kinds of invertebrates and fungi as well, so that that's really important to have this collection of of different kinds of wood in in you know in a similar area.   Adam: Excellent. OK, we've, we've stopped. We've stopped Kate, and you've got very excited.  Kate: It happens quite easily when I'm out in nature. And there's a whole pile of knopper galls on the floor here, and they're black. You know, they've dropped off the tree. They've done their job. The the wasp has flown off. But I wondered if we could, I've no idea if this is gonna work, I wondered if we could actually try writing with them because they are oozing black.  Adam: Oh my, right, this is so exciting. OK, so this is like this is a modern day Shakespeare. Have you got? OK. The line is to be or not to be. I see. Hold on a second. So you've picked it up, right, I I think you might do something to it.   Kate: Well, I might have to. Shall we see, shall we see if it just?  Adam: Right, but you're not, you're just gonna?  Jules: Ohh there we go.  Kate: There is a brown ooze and it's I think it's not just from the path.  Adam: I was going to say, it's not just mud.  Kate: It's not. It's this kind of coffee colour.  Adam: Wow, OK. And you are writing to be or not to not be.  Kate: I am writing to be or not to be, I I don't know if I break it open a bit more if you might get. Ohh. This is gonna stain my nails, isn't it?  Adam: OK. Ohh dear, don't worry I'll I'll pay for the the visit to to the nail parlour.  Kate: *laughs* I shouldn't worry. Yes, we are actually getting some.  Adam: To be or not to be. Well, I'm sure that would have actually been mixed with water or something.  Kate: Most likely  Adam: Or some alcohol and put into a quill, but that does what hold on, let me just rub it, see. Well, I can confirm that is not just what we have now created ink. Proper exciting.  Kate: Absolutely.  Adam: Thank you very much. Well, we're heading away from our ink gall-bearing oaks to see the main attraction of the day, which is a short drive from here. It is the Bowthorpe Oak, one of the contenders for Tree of the Year. It is rooted in a grass paddock behind the 17th century farmhouse nearby. In 2002, the Tree Council, in celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, designated the Bowthorpe Oak one of 50 great British trees. One of the 50 greatest British trees in recognition of its place in our national heritage. And I'm meeting the current custodian of the oak who runs the farm in which it lives.  George: My name is George Blanchard and I am one of the family members here that farm at Bowthorpe Park Farm.  Adam: Right. And you have, we're standing by this famous tree. People come here to see this tree?  George: They do, yeah, we get them from all over the world. A lot of lot of UK, obviously, Europe and America, we get a lot of interest from America.  Adam: Well, tell me a bit about this tree.  George: So this tree, the Bowthorpe Oak, is the UK's largest girthed oak tree. It's absolutely stunning as you can, as you can see, fully in leaf at the moment it looks amazing and yeah, that's it's claim to fame.  Adam: Right it's wide the widest I think it was the second widest tree in the UK. Is that right?  George: We know it's the largest largest oak tree in in terms of it's it's the most complete, you know. So I think there could be wider ones, but not quite as complete.  Adam: Not quite as good as your tree!  George: Yeah, exactly. This is yeah *laughs*  Adam: No, I agree. And and is is this a family farm? Is this?  George: It is yeah.  Adam: Right so you've grown up, you've you played under the boughs of this tree.  George: I have. Yeah, yeah and and inside it as well. Remember it is hollow so.  Adam: Right. Yeah. So tell me a bit about the sort of the folklore and the stories around the tree.  George: Yeah so oak trees naturally start to hollow at around 500 years old, but this one was hollowed even further, back in the 1700s by a chap called George Pauncefort and  Adam: It was, it was, it wasn't naturally hollow, he hollowed it out?  George: They they do, they do naturally hollow, but he hollowed it even further. And you can tell this when you're looking inside it, because the the sides are quite flat. It's very unnatural. You can see so the hollowing has been done by by tools. And so he also put benches around the inside of it and a and a doorway on on the west side and even even sort of paved the flooring but and and put a pigeon loft in the crown, which I think, I think back in the day in the 1700s, if you had a pigeon loft in your tree, you were somebody *laughs*.  Adam: Ohh really that's like Lamborghini time, right? OK, forget your Lamborghinis, I've got a pigeon loft in my tree.   George: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he would have parties in there as as you would, wouldn't you?  Adam: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you've gone to all that trouble. Was he a member of the family? Was this being passed down?   George: No, no, there's no there's no relation, no relation. We've we've only been farming here since the sort of late 40s.  Adam: Right. OK, amazing. Amazing stuff. And I mean, and it looks in fairly, I mean as you say, it's in good leaf, it's in also just it looks to the untutored eye in good nick as well, generally healthy.  George: It is yeah. Really good really good condition currently. We lost a a limb off the back and that was that was quite concerning because it's it's quite dramatic when they shed a shed a limb, but it is what they they naturally do. We have an inspection done on the tree annually, but at the time of losing the limb, we were, we were quite concerned. So we upped the type of inspection we had done. And they were quite, quite invasive, I say invasive it was, you know, using really small drills, to see if there's any adverse rotting in any places. But no, they were really happy with the condition of the tree and and how healthy it is so other than any sort of man-made issue, I don't see why it shouldn't carry on growing as it is.  Adam: And it's amazing because, I mean, you know, it's taken us quite a while to get here and people come here all this way just to see this tree.  George: They do, yes, yes, seek it out, we call it Lincolnshire's best kept secret.  Adam: Right. Amazing. From all over the world?  George: They do yeah yeah. From all over the world. Like I say, a lot of a lot of Europe people come from Europe and a lot of people come from America. We find that the two two types of people from America, those that really appreciate it and those that just can't get their head around it because it's nowhere near as big as their redwoods *laughs*  Adam: Right? Call this big. Call this big, you should see...  George: Exactly. Yeah, call this big, we've got bigger.  Adam: Yeah OK. Brilliant well thank you very much, I will take a tour round it.  George: Thank you.  Adam: So one of the other, now I have to say, first of all, let me have a look at the front front, we've taken a book with us because Jules has published a book called Oaklore and you've brought it out here because there is a poem about this oak in your book.  Jules: There is and it was written well over 100 years ago by a poet called John Clare and but the interesting thing is when he wrote this poem this would have already been an ancient tree, so it's it's quite an interesting record that he was standing in awe, looking at this tree, just like we are now really.  Adam: Right, right. So when did he write this?  Jules: I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I know it's over well over 100 years ago.  Adam: OK, well over 100 years and you're going to put on your best poetry reading voice.  Jules: *laughs* I'll have a go.  Adam: Go on, give us, I always love, I mean, we did this in the Sherwood Forest podcast where we took a book about Sherwood Forest and a book about a tree to the tree it's about. So we're now going to read a poem about the tree we're standing by. So this poem by John Clare.  Jules: And it's called Burthorp Oak. So here we go. Burthorp Oak.   Old noted oak! I saw thee in a mood  Of vague indifference; and yet with me  Thy memory, like thy fate, hath lingering stood  For years, thou hermit, in the lonely sea  Of grass that waves around thee! Solitude  Paints not a lonelier picture to the view,  Burthorp! than thy one melancholy tree  Age-rent, and shattered to a stump. Yet new  Leaves come upon each rift and broken limb  With every spring; and Poesy's visions swim  Around it, of old days and chivalry;  And desolate fancies bid the eyes grow dim  With feelings, that earth's grandeur should decay,  And all its olden memories pass away.  Adam: Brilliant. That's that's a lovely poem to read by by the tree.  Jules: I think it's quite interesting that he says age rent and shattered to a stump so it it sort of suggests that the tree is in a worse condition than now, wouldn't you say so Kate? And it looks like it might be happier now than when Clare saw it.  Kate: I was just looking at it and I mean it looks like some of those shoots have put on a good foot of growth this year. So that's the amazing thing about ancient oaks is they they so-called retrench. So all the limbs, the limbs drop off, they become shorter and and and wider and then they might all just start to sort of grow again and it sort of goes through these amazing cycles. Certainly there's a lot more vegetation on it than when I last saw it 15 years ago. It looks fabulous.  Adam: And also a lot of oaks grow very tall. This isn't so tall it it is wider, isn't it? It's a squatter tree. Is that because it's actually not had to compete, because it's actually in a field by itself isn't it? It's not competing for light with lots of other trees.  Kate: Yes, maybe. And also trees like this do, the really ancient trees they do tend to become short and squat and it's part, and hollow, and that's part of their survival strategy is that they'll shed some of these top branches and they'll, they'll shorten and and widen.  Adam: Right. I mean, oaks are really important, aren't they in the UK especially, they're part of the national identity, really, aren't they? And and a lot of that's got to do with folklore, which I know, Jules, you've written about as well.  Jules: Yeah, I mean the the oak has been part of our culture well, as far as as, as as far as we know as far as written records go back and even we we believe that the the Druids themselves were very also very interested in oak trees and they worshipped in oak groves and they particularly worshipped mistletoe, the rare mistletoe that came off off oaks. Of course, we don't have written records on the the Druids, so we don't, we know very little about them, but that's certainly what we believe. And then it's been threaded throughout our our history and our culture that the oaks right up to the present day, you know people are still writing about it and painting painting oak trees and you've got wonderful ambassadors like Luke Adam Hawker who is very inspired by oak trees and goes out drawing them.  Adam: Why do you, I mean I don't suppose there's an answer, but do you have a take on why we've landed on the oak as such a a central part of our mythology and identity?  Jules: Well, I I think I think all of our native trees will play a role in that in our folklore and our mythology and and our culture, I think the oak is is is a particularly impressive tree isn't it, especially when you're standing next to a tree like this that that is so majestic and and you know the words like majestic, kingly, queenly, grand, they they just sort of pop into your head. There is just something incredibly awe-inspiring about the oak tree. And then, as we've we've seen before it, it just has such a huge impact on our ecology as well. So I think I think it's just something it it does a lot of heavy lifting culturally and also naturally the oak tree.  Adam: And almost every pub is called the Royal Oak.  Jules: Yes, yes, I think there's at the last count there's well over 400 pubs called the Royal Oak.  Adam: And you know that personally by visiting them?   Jules: Well, I've yes, I've I've tried to count them all. I've still got some way to go *both laugh*  Adam: Yeah. OK, OK, alright. Well, it's it's a good project to be having.  Jules: So there's an interesting story behind the that name the Royal Oak. And the reason the pubs are called that relates back to a very special oak tree, the Boscobel Oak. Now we have to go back in history a few hundred years. And it takes us back to the Battle of Worcester and the son of Charles I was in in battle with the with, with, with the parliamentarians, and he took a drubbing at the Battle of Worcester, and he needed to escape. And he reached this place called Boscobel House, and he was going to hide out in, in that house and try and escape the the soldiers, the the enemy. But it was very insecure and one of his advisers suggested he, instead of hiding in the house, he hid in the oak tree. So they spent the whole night in the oak tree, which subsequently called called the Boscobel Oak, and this and and and they escaped capture and the king spent the whole night with this chap called William Careless as he as he was called   Adam: William Careless?  Jules: William Careless who turned out not to be careless at all because he actually saved the king. And apparently the king sort of curled up with his head on Careless' knee and and he, they they got away. They got away with it and because of that you know that then obviously led into a whole series of events which ultimately led to the restoration of the monarchy and said King became Charles II and and because of that there was an enormous celebration of oak trees. So they they they were raised in status even further. So we've got all the Royal Oak pubs which are effectively commemorating that occasion. But there's also a great day of celebration was declared. It was the 29 May. I think that was the King's birthday, and it was 29 May. And it became oak apple day. And that was when we would all when people across the land would would gather and and celebrate the restoration of the monarchy. And one of the things they used to do was they people would bring branches with oak apples, which is another of those amazing galls. And the more oak apples you had on your branches, the better the better you were, you know, the, the, the cooler you were at the party. And if you didn't bring oak branches with you, apparently people would be mean to you and they'd whip you with nettles.   Adam: Blimey, this story took a turn!  Jules: Yeah, these parties got these these parties got quite out of hand. I actually think we should bring these days back. Not, no nettles. But I think actually wouldn't it be great if we spent every 29 May celebrating our amazing oak trees and and and also the wider nature around us.  Adam: Yeah, we've missed it this year, but I'm putting a date in for us to meet at a Royal Oak somewhere between us on 29 May.  Jules: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. Yeah. And maybe drink a glass of oak flavoured wine or whisky.  Adam: OK, never had that, but I'm I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Kate, this is also important because this is in the running for Tree of the Year.  Kate: Absolutely. So the Woodland Trust hosts the UK Tree of the Year competition, and this year we've focused on oak trees.   Adam: So so they're all oaks.  Kate: All of them are oak trees this year, so we've got 12 candidates from across the UK and the wonderful Bowthorpe Oak here is one of them. It's my local tree so I'm a little bit biased, but these trees all tell amazing stories. We've got one that's shaped like an elephant in the New Forest. We've got one that has survived being in the middle of pine plantation in the Highlands of Scotland and we've got one that's sadly under threat from a bypass in Shrewsbury. So we've got some amazing stories from these trees and the public can vote. So voting closes on the 21 October 2024 and you can go to the Woodland Trust website so it's woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote.  Adam: There were some cow noises just as you said that in the background! Just to prove that we're in a farm *all laugh*.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Join us for a jam-packed visit to Frodsham Woods, Cheshire, where 80 volunteers were planting thousands of trees to help transform a former golf course into a fantastic new space for wildlife and people. We visit the neighbouring ancient woodland and admire hilltop views with site manager Neil and chat to Tim, supervisor of this army of tree planters, about how the new wood will develop. We also meet Esther, lead designer of the project, hear from comms guru Paul about the Trust's #plantmoretrees climate campaign, and speak to the volunteers about what the day means to them. Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire, overlooking Liverpool. Not far away, in fact. And the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadleaved woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wildflowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's running all the tree planting there is also in a band, and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later. It's called Frodsham Woods, and it's near the Frodsham train station. Guess where? In Frodsham. Well, today we are starting, I'm starting sitting down with Neil Oxley, who's the site manager here. Hi Neil. Neil: Good morning, Adam. Adam: Good morning. So, just explain where we are because we are, well, I'm not gonna take away your thunder. Explain. It's an unusual location. Neil: So, we're sat on a bench overlooking the River Mersey and Liverpool. We're on the old golf course that was closed about three years ago. Adam: Yeah, well that's what I think is unusual – sitting on a golf course. I gotta take, it doesn't look like a golf course. They, the greenkeeper would have had a heart attack seeing the state of this place. But what's amazing is, well, I'm looking over a forest of planted trees. I mean, just within 10 yards, probably a couple of hundred of them, just been planted. So, this has got to be unusual. Take buying a golf course, turning it into a forest? Neil: It is, yeah. I think it's probably the first golf course that the Woodland Trust has taken on and it's just a great opportunity, though, that when it became available, it's adjoining some of our existing woodlands, including ancient woodland. And it's given us an opportunity to plant lots of trees and work with local people and engage the community in doing something good for the climate. Adam: And we're sitting down, looking over what might be, I don't know. Is that a bunker? Do you think that's a bunker? Neil: It is, yep. So, there there's probably about 40 bunkers on the golf course and we've kept them all, so some of those old features are still here. Adam: And I saw one, some gorse growing, just naturally growing in the bunker there. Neil: There is. Just in the two or three years since it stopped being maintained. There's gorse, there's silver birch, there's all sorts of trees and plants that are now appearing. Adam: I love the gorse. It's bright. It comes out early. Bright yellow. Real splash of colour in early spring. It's really. Neil: It is, yeah, it's lovely and colourful. Adam: And we're looking over a range of wind turbines. And is that the Mersey ahead? Neil: That is, that's the River Mersey. Adam: Although there's not much river, it looks, it looks like it's out. It's mainly mud. Neil: It's probably low tide at the moment. Yeah, and Liverpool just beyond the other side. Adam: Very nice. So, you're going to be my main guide today. We've got lots of people to meet, I know. Alright. Brilliant. So, explain to me the plan for the day. Neil: So, we're gonna have a walk round and look at some of the tree planting that we've already done here. We've got some groups of corporate volunteers and Woodland Trust staff here today also who are planting trees. So, we'll go and see them later on. But I thought maybe to start off with we could go and visit some of the ancient woodland that borders the site and show you sort of why it's important that we're doing what we're doing today. Adam: Brilliant. I'm of an age where sitting down is quite nice, but that's not going to get, that's not gonna get nothing made, is it? It's alright. We better get up and you lead on. Neil: OK, let's go. This lady, by the way, coming with the pug. She's up here all the time. She's really lovely, friendly, always talks to me and Paul. And we've already said hello to her, but he... Adam: Oh, this dog wants a lot of attention. Neil: He loves that. He loves that, yeah. Adam: We'll let the rest of the team pet the dog. You know, you've paused here for a special reason. Why? Neil: Yeah. So, this area, we're on the edge of the ancient woodland now and the part of the site in front of us is going to be left for what's called natural regeneration to develop. So, that will be where trees can self-seed and set and grow naturally. So, we're not actually planting any trees in this area in front of us. And you can see there's some silver birch trees there that probably self-seeded five or 10 years ago on the edge of the golf course. And they're growing quite well already. Adam: So, and what's the advantage of that? There's a big debate about rewilding and all of that. So, why has that become an important issue? Neil: It is, I mean to different people it can mean slightly different things as well. But basically it's leaving the land to develop and rewild itself, you know, for nature to colonise it. It's a slower process. Adam: So, because if you're planting them yourself, you're planting all the trees at the same time. They're all the same age, so they get wiped out. Everything gets wiped out. Neil: Potentially yes. You could lose a lot more. Adam: Actually, I'm surprised those are natural regeneration because they've, it's very regimented. Those silver birch, they've all come up in exactly the same space, very close together. It looks like there's been some thought behind that. Neil: It does. It does and again nature can do things very similar to how people plant trees. You know, you often can end up with them very densely packed, more densely packed than we're planting them, actually. Adam: Yeah, OK. Well, we're still surrounded by these young, young trees. So, you lead on. Where are we heading off to? Neil: So, we're just walking into, towards the ancient woodland area. So, this this is called Woodhouse Hill and it's mostly oak and some silver birch, some holly growing in here, plus a few other species as well. Adam: And wonderfully of you, you've taken me to the muddiest bit of land there is. Are we going through this? Neil: This, well, we can do. It's unfortunately because of the winter we've had, some of the paths are very wet and muddy around here now. Adam: So, I have my walking boots on. You squelch ahead and I'll squelch behind you. Neil: OK. We'll carry on then. Adam: So, we're heading up, give us a better view of the Mersey, a better view of Liverpool. Neil: That's right. Just around the corner, there's a really good viewpoint where the view will open up and a sunny day like today get quite good views. Adam: And is it used by the locals a lot? I mean, it's relatively new then. I mean, presumably a lot of locals don't know about it. Neil: Well, I mean since, the golf course was closed down during the pandemic, and at the time the owner allowed the public to come and walk on the site. So, suddenly from people being not allowed to use it unless they were playing golf, local people were allowed to come and walk the dogs or just walk themselves around with the family. So, people did get to know the site and start using it, but it also borders some existing woodlands with footpaths, which is where we are now. So, these existing woodlands were already well-used. Adam: Right. And what's the reaction of the locals been to the development here? Neil: Very positive. Yeah. I mean obviously there's always a fear when a piece of land is up for sale that it might go for some sort of development, housing or be sold to a private landowner who fences it off and stops people using it. So, people have been, yeah, really positive, really supportive. The consultation that we did before we started anything was all very much in favour of creating woodland and allowing public access. Adam: I think we're coming up to a viewpoint here where there's a bench. Neil: There is, we should have another sit down. Adam: And it's very steep here. You wouldn't want to be falling off that, but this is a beautiful view. Neil: Yeah. The weather today is just great for the view. Adam: We've been blessed. Look at this. And then you look across a sort of flat valley floor with some wind turbines, which some don't like but I always think they're really majestic. And beyond the wind turbines, the Mersey, where the tide is out. And beyond that, that's Liverpool. And is that Liverpool Cathedral? The grey building in the sort of middle there. Neil: That's the main Anglican cathedral, and then the Catholic cathedral is just off to the right and beyond in the far distance is North Wales, so that low line of hills you can see is just within North Wales. Adam: Oh, that's, those hills over there, beyond the chimneys, that's Wales. Neil: Beyond the chimneys, yeah. Adam: And some other lovely gorse and, whoops don't fall over, I thought it was going to be me that would be falling over, not the site manager. Neil: Mind the rock. Adam: Ice and sea. So, we've come to the sign. ‘The view from Woodhouse Hill holds clues to the distant past, the Mersey Basin and Cheshire's sandstone hills were both shaped by advancing ice sheets during the last Ice Age.' Do you know what? I wanted to say that because I remember from O-level geography, I think a flat-bottomed valley is a glacier-made valley. But I was, I didn't want to appear idiotic, so I didn't say that and I should have had the courage of my convictions. So, this is an ice-formed landscape. Neil: It is. It is. I understand that the ice sheets came down to this part of the north of England back in the Ice Age. And there's some interesting features that are found here called glacial erratics. Adam: Right. Neil: Which is rocks from other parts of the north of England and Scotland that were brought down on the ice sheets. And then when the ice sheets melted, those rocks were left behind. But they're from a different geological area. Adam: Right. Amazing. Neil: So, around here it's sandstone. The erratics are all kind of volcanic rocks. Adam: Brought down from the north, from Scotland. Neil: Lake District and Scotland. That's right. Adam: Beautiful. We were with a few other people. Neil: I think they couldn't be bothered to come through the mud, could they? Yeah. Adam: We seem to have lost them. OK, alright. Well, maybe we'll have to, we've lost our team, our support team. Neil: We'll head back, but yeah, no, this was the view I thought we'd come to. Yeah, because it is a nice view. Adam: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me take a photo of you, for the Woodland Trust social media. Neil: Thought you were gonna say falling over the rock again. No, no, I'll try not to. Adam: Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, so to explain, you're running me across the field for some... Neil: Walking fast. Adam: Well, for you walking fast. I've got short legs. Why? Neil: Well, we've walked over now to where we've got the people who are helping plant trees today with us. So, we've got a mix of corporate volunteers, Woodland Trust staff and some of our volunteers here to help us and we're gonna go over and meet Tim Kerwin, who's in charge of the tree planting and supervising the tree planting with us today. Adam: Oh right, so these are, this is his army of tree planters. Neil: It is, yes. Tim keeps things in check and makes sure they're doing the right thing. Adam: OK. I mean, let's just look, there's scores of people I've no idea of who Tim is. Neil: Tim? Tim, can we get your attention for a few minutes? Tim: Yes. Adam: Hi, nice to see you, Tim. Tim: I've seen you on telly. Adam: Have you? Adam: Well, Tim, as well as being in charge of everyone planting the trees today is also the sax player in a band. And of course we have to talk about that first and he very kindly gave me one of his original tracks, which is what you can hear right now. A first for the podcast. *song plays* Tim: You know, you know what? We probably do about eight gigs a year, right? But we're trying to find venues where people like jazz. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to do Oasis. That's not what we're about. There's plenty of bands like that. We play music for ourselves, and if people turn up and appreciate it, those are the people we want. I'll play for one person. Adam: You know, I was in a wood a few years ago and, can't remember where it was, and we just came across a violinist, just playing to herself. And it was just like can I record it? And it's like, just playing amongst the trees, and I thought it was really lovely. Tim: You know what? I would, I would do the same. I mean, the places I like to play, like churches are fantastic because of the acoustics. Adam: So, you might play that under this chat and what's the name of the band? Tim: The Kraken. Adam: The Kraken? Tim: Yeah. Adam: OK. Alright, The Kraken *laughs* So, all of which is a bit of a divergence. Tim: I know, sorry *laughs* Adam: So, I'm told you're in charge of this army of tree planters you can see over here. Three men having their sandwich break there. So, you've been working them hard. Tim: We have been working them hard, indeed. Adam: So, just explain to me a little bit about what's going on here. Tim: So, today we can almost see the finishing line for our 30,000 trees. So, this morning we've actually planted just shy of 2,000 trees with the group that we've had, of which there's about 80 people. Adam: That's a lot of trees. People always talk about how long does it take to plant a tree? It's not that big a thing is it? Tim: No, but what we're keen about is it's not about necessarily speed, it's about accuracy. We want quality. So, what we're asking people to do is plant each tree really well. So, today I have to say the standard of planting has been amazing. From the first to the last, I haven't found one that I'm not happy with. Adam: So, explain to me, and we're standing by a tree that's just been planted. It looks like they've scraped a bit of the grass away. So, explain to me, how should you plant a tree and what goes wrong? Tim: OK, so what we've done here, we took the grass off before the guys came, so that's called scriefing. So, the purpose of that is the tree needs water. And this grass also needs water. So, we take that grass away, and the competition's gone away for the tree. So, it won't be forever, because within two years, that grass will have grown around that tree. But those first two years are quite critical. So, if we can get the new roots from, so those trees and little plugs, new roots which are going to come out in the next couple of weeks because the soil's warming up. I mean, the air's warming up, but the soil's warming up. Those will send out shoots. They're already starting to come in to leaf, which is why the urgency to get these trees in now. They will take in the water around them and then keep on spreading with that root system. Enough root system will go out there and it will then not be competing with the grass because in fact the tree will be competing with the grass and actually taking over. So, eventually that grass will probably die because it will be shaded out in the future. Adam: And talking about shade, I'm surprised how closely planted these are, about five foot apart or thereabouts. If this was a forest in 20 years', 30 years' time, it's exceptionally dense. Or are you expecting a lot of them to fail? Tim: So, imagine you've got an oak tree and that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So, it doubles its weight above ground. Adam: Sorry, 40,000? Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah. Adam: It's worth pausing on that *laughs* A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year? Tim: Every four years, roughly. Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they? Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance. So, they can now flourish. In time, so within sort of 10 to 12 years, we're going to start to be sending this out. So, you won't see this line. There are other parts on this site, 23 years old, and we've done a lot of filling through that. You wouldn't know it's been planted by, in a plantation. Adam: So, what would you, what's the failure rate? What's a good failure rate to stay with? Tim: It can really, really vary. I have to say that the soil here is tremendous. It's very rich. I'd be very surprised if we have a high failure rate. It could be 95% take. Adam: So, that's really interesting. And what are you planting then? I've seen some oak. I've seen some silver birch. What are you planting? Tim: So, Cheshire is all about oak and birch. So, 25% of these trees, so 7,500 are oak. And then 10% are silver birch. So that's 3,000. And then there's another 18 species that are all native to the UK that we're planting in here. So, things like rowan, holly, Scots pine and then we've got hazel, some large areas of hazel on this site that we've put in and then we've got hawthorn, blackthorn, couple of types of cherry, and then some interesting ones as well. So, we're putting some elm in and, specifically for a butterfly. So, there's a butterfly called white letter hairstreak. And the caterpillar feeds on the leaves of that tree. So, we've got those in Cheshire, but we're trying to expand it. And we've been working with the Butterfly Conservation group to get it right. So, they've given us some advice. Adam: I thought elm was a real problem with the Dutch elm disease? Tim: It still is. It still is. Adam: There was some talk that maybe some had found some natural resistance to Dutch elm disease. Tim: There are some resistant elm. And so, the plantings that we've done on here are what's classed as wych elm. It will still get Dutch elm disease, but it can last up to 16 years. And then there's always the opportunity to replant so we can get elm established. Then we can carry on spreading that through the site, so it's a starting point for that species we have. So again, we're trying to increase the biodiversity of the site by having specific trees for specific species. So, it's exciting. I mean, a lot's been lost and it won't become a beautiful wildflower meadow, although we are going to be doing some wildflower planting. We've already bought the seed. And in the next couple of weeks as it gets a little bit drier and a little bit warm, we're going to be, we're going to be sowing that in and that will come through the spring and summer. So, we've got lots to happen here as well. Adam: Oh brilliant. Well, it's so nice to see it at an early stage. I'll come back in a couple of years. Tim: It's probably one of the most exciting projects, tree wise, in Cheshire in a long time, because I've been doing this for a long, long time and these opportunities don't come up. So, for this to happen. And for the size of it as well. I mean, you're talking about a huge area of woodland now, over 180 acres. So, the second biggest area of woodland in Cheshire, so it's amazing. It truly is amazing. Adam: Well, I'm walking away. In fact, all tree planting has stopped for lunch. What is the time? Yeah, it's 12:45. So, everyone has stopped for sandwiches and teas, and they're spreading branches of some trees. And while they're doing that, two people are still working. That's me. And Paul? Hi. Paul: Hi. Adam: So, just explain to me what you do, Paul? Paul: I work as the comms and engagement manager for the north of England, so this is one of the best tree planting games we have had in a long time. Adam: And the people we've got here today, they're just locals? They from any particular groups? Paul: No, the Woodland Trust staff as part of our climate campaign now get a day to come out and we've got various corporate volunteering groups out also planters. We've got about 80 people out planting today. Adam: Well, that's amazing and we've just paused by this gorse bush. I'm rather partial to the gorse, so we'll take some shelter there. So, you talked about that this is part of a bigger campaign. What is that campaign? Paul: It's our climate campaign. And very simple hashtag plant more trees. So, trees are one, probably one of the best things we've got in the battle against climate change to help. And they have the added benefit that also they're good for biodiversity as well. So, twin track approach if you plant a tree. Obviously they're not the solution to everything, but we're hoping, as the Woodland Trust just to get more people planting trees. Adam: What is the target then? The sort of tree planting target you have? Paul: Well we have a target to get 50 million trees planted by 2030. Across all of the UK, so quite, quite a number. Adam: 50 million trees by 2030, so six years? Paul: Yeah, yeah. And we've, I think we've planted 6 million trees, 2023, yeah. Adam: Why is everyone taking a break? They've got millions to get in. That's quite an ambitious thing to get done, isn't it? Paul: Yeah. And we need, we need to plant billions of trees longer term. So, it's really important we get everyone planting trees, but it's all that message as well, right tree in the right place, and get trees planted where they're needed. Adam: And this is an unusual project, not least cause it's on an old golf course, which I've never heard of before. Has it attracted much interest? Is there a lot of engagement from the media and the public? Paul: Yeah, this site has had a remarkable amount of attention from the press. It started with local radio, then regional TV and then we've had things like Sky News Climate Show out here and then even international press coverage looking at rewilding of golf courses. CNN covered it alongside international golf courses and here in the UK, Frodsham. So, it's been amazing how it's captured everyone's imagination and it's been such a really positive good news story. It's a site that's a key site within the Northern Forest. So, the Northern Forest is another project that I'm involved with in the north of England, but. Adam: Did you say a little project? *laughs* Paul: Another, another project. Adam: Oh sorry. I was gonna say, a massive project. Paul: That's a massive project, which is again stretching, looking to plant 50 million trees from Liverpool to Hull and we're working with the Community Forests in each area, in this case the Mersey Forest and again just promoting grants and support to landowners and communities to get more, more trees planted and to help acquire land for tree planting and give the grants for tree planting. Adam: It must give you a warm feeling that your communications are actually being so well received that there is, it's not just you pushing out a message, that people want to hear this message. Paul: Yeah, it's really, really good to not have a negative message. Generally it's a really, really positive message that people wanted to hear because it's great for the community. They're getting some amazing green space with stunning views of the Mersey on the doorstep. It's interesting story about how we're changing from a golf course to a woodland site. We've got the ancient woodland, got natural regeneration. And just the fact that everyone's smiling, everyone's really happy and just so pleased that they're playing their small part in helping us create this new woodland site. Just great to be part of that, that positive good news story. Adam: Well, I'm going over to a group of people who have been busy planting all day but are now on their lunch break, just to bother them and ask them how their day has been and why they got involved in this. Adam: OK, well, you can, first of all, you can just shout out so, well we've, you all are hard at work I hear, but I've seen very little evidence of it cause everyone's sat down for lunch now. Have you all had a good day? Everyone: Yes. Adam: That would have been awful had they said no. Anyway, they all had a good day. So, I mean, it's lovely that you're out. You're all out here doing, I mean, very serious work. You've all got smiles on your face and everything. But this is important. I wonder why anyone's getting involved, what it means to you. Anyone got a view or get a microphone to you? Adam: So, what's your name? Volunteer 1: Rodon. Adam: Rodon. So, why are you here? Rodon: Well, nature, wildlife, planting, and I know the area quite well, so it's nice to see being developed in a sustainable way and being something for nature. It's a great place to come and visit, not far from the sandstone trail. I visit lots of Woodland Trust sites. I live in Warrington so it's sort of down the road, and it's, as I say, with the old wood over there that's quite an adventurous path. It's got lots of like sandstone sort of steps and little caves, and it's on the side of a cliff. So, this has kind of extended that over here as well. Adam: It would be a lovely thing to return to in a few years. Rodon: Well, it's a nice place now to be honest. Adam: Brilliant. Volunteer 2: My name is David Mays. I'm also from the from the town of Warrington as well. I'm an MSC and BSc student from local Hope University. I've finished both of them now, thankfully. I'm trying to get a job in the ecological management sector and I feel doing this working with people like Tim and Neil will help me massively get a, you know, it looks good on my CV. Most importantly, I really enjoy being out here and getting to know how the areas of ecological development, particularly in the woodland industry, is developing over the past few years and what are the plans for the future and what they hope to achieve in the long term and short term. Adam: That's very good. So, it's also very innovative of you putting out your CV live on air there. Good. Hopefully someone needing a job, with a job to offer will contact us. Good luck with that. So, oh yeah, we've come under another lovely tree. I mean it looks set. I was just saying to Kerry, it's so beautiful here. It looks like we've set this shot up. Really, you know? But here you are with your spades behind you taking a break from the trunk. So, first of all, have you, has it been a good day? Volunteer 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has been. It's been dry. Adam: It's been dry. OK. Alright. Well, let's get, so, the best thing about today is that it was dry. Volunteer 3: It's one of the positive points. Definitely. Yeah, after the trees. Adam: Yeah, with experience. So, why did you want to come out? What made you want to be part of this? Volunteer 3: Well, I think it's because we are having a bit of a push with the climate change agenda at the moment, so it's, working for the Woodland Trust it's just a nice opportunity to get away from the sort of the day job for me and get out into the field and actually do something practical and help towards that. Adam: Yeah. Did, I mean, has it been very physical for you today, has it? Volunteer 3: It's not been too bad, actually. It's been fine. Yeah. No, it's been OK. Ask me tomorrow, but yeah *laughs* Adam: Have you done this sort of stuff before? Volunteer 3: No, this is my first, this is my first planting day with the Trust. Adam: Yeah, and your last? Volunteer 3: No, no, I'll definitely no, it hasn't put me off. We'll definitely, definitely be back out again when I get the opportunity. It's been great. Adam: So, go on. Tell me what's all been like for you today? Volunteer 4: It's been really good. Yeah. I just can't believe we've covered so much ground in so little time, really. Seems we've only been here a few hours and because it's, I've been quite remote working from home, so it's quite nice kind of seeing some people I've met on screen, so it's nice to now, yeah, meet people in the real world and yeah, give back. I've never, I've not done anything like this before. Adam: So yeah, so is this your first time planting trees? Volunteer 5: It's not my first time planting trees, but it's my first time planting with the Trust. I was planting trees in my garden on the weekend, so I've done my back in. So, I've not quite got the planting rate of everyone else today I don't think, but you know, as the other guys were saying, we work office jobs really rather than on the front line of the Trust. So, it is good to get our hands dirty and to get involved with what we're supposed to be all about and contribute to our climate change campaign. So, hashtag plant more trees. Adam: Yeah. There we are, on message as well. Volunteer 5: I work in the brand team *laughs* Adam: There we are. There we are. Thank you. That's excellent. Adam: Now, really I should have started with this because we're nearing the end of my morning in the forest. But I've come to meet Esther, who's really one of the big brains behind the planting scheme. I know a bit modest about that, but tell me a little bit about what your involvement has been with this project. Esther: I've been a lead designer on this project, so I've been putting together the planting plans and lots of maps and really working with Neil, he's the site manager, to make sure that we make this the best scheme that we can make it. We've included coppice coupes for biodiversity and. Adam: Right, what's a coppice coupe? Esther: A coppice coupe is just an area of where you're planning to coppice. So, cut a tree down to its very base and then it grows back up as shoots. So, it only works with a few species and the species that we've chosen is hazel. So, those areas are 100% hazel. And it's great for biodiversity because you sort of go in a rotational like a 10-year cycle or something like that and you cut back say 10% of your trees in that year and then you get a lot of light to the ground and then you get hopefully a lot of floristic diversity coming through. Adam: And so, is that a job that, it sounds terrible the way I'm saying it – is that a job? Is it a job that you sit down and you go, you have a piece of paper or computer and you go, this is where we're, how we're gonna design the forest. We're gonna put ash over there. We're gonna put oak over there. Is that what you do? Esther: Yeah. Yeah. So, we use something called GIS. So, geographical information systems which basically let you draw shapes on a map and then you can colour code it and basically make a really coherent design of something to tell people, you know, what you're trying to achieve. What's gonna go where. Adam: And it's not every, it's not like building an extension to a house where you go well, there's probably thousands and going on all the time. There can't be that many forests being planted each day, so this must be a significant thing in your career I would have thought. Esther: Oh yeah, this is my first woodland creation scheme that I've seen from pretty much the start to the finish, so I've been working on it for 18 months and then an awful lot of hours gone into it. It's been really enjoyable and it's just a wonderful, wonderful to see it coming together. And yeah, and we're nearly finished now, so. Adam: And I know people often think, oh well, I'll come back in 100 years' time and you know, my great grandchildren might see these trees. But actually, within your career, you will see a forest here won't you. Esther: Yeah. So, I think within 10 years it will look like a woodland. It's had, this site has a history of agriculture, so it should in theory have a lot of nutrients in the soil. So, the trees should grow really well. So yeah, I would say within 10 to 15 years, it should look like fully fledged woodland, if not a bit young, but yeah. Adam: And are you optimistic about really the change that you and your colleagues can make? Cause there's a lot of pessimism around. What's your view? Esther: I think it's a really exciting time to be working in the environment sector and there's a lot of enthusiasm for making big changes in our lives and big changes in our landscape. I think there's a lot of hope to be had. And yeah, just seeing like the amount of enthusiasm on a planting day like this really fills me with a great deal of hope, yeah. Adam: Yeah. Have you planted any trees yourself? Esther: I have, yeah. Adam: How many of these have been yours, you reckon? Esther: We have 15, probably not that many *laughs* Adam: Oh, that's not bad. I thought you were gonna be like The Queen. I planted one. There was a round of applause and I went home *laughs* Esther: No, I put a lot of guards on, but yeah, not planting that many trees myself. Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me. Our half day out here and I'll definitely return. It's amazing, amazing, positive place. Esther: Wonderful, yeah. Adam: And the sun has shone on us. Metaphorical smile from the sun. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Esther: Thank you so much. *song plays* Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to The Woodland Trust website which is www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Our setting for this episode, Sheffield's Endcliffe Park seems like many other popular green spaces, but it has a hidden history: its waterways once helped fuel the Industrial Revolution in the ‘Steel City'. We discover how Sheffield's past intertwines with trees as local urban forester, Catherine Nuttgens, explains how nature and the city have shaped each other through the centuries, and why people here are so passionate about trees. We also meet Stella Bolam who works with community groups and schools to plant trees, and learn about the nearby Grey to Green project that's transformed tarmac into a tranquil haven for people and wildlife and tackles climate change too. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, today I am in Sheffield, known of course as the Steel City renowned for steel production during the 19th century Industrial Revolution. But despite that historical heritage, woodland and green spaces were, and still are, the lungs of the city and seen as vitally important. In fact, it is now, according to Sheffield University, the UK's greenest city, with 250 public parks and over four and a half million trees. That's more trees per person than any other city in Europe and in 2022, Sheffield was named as a Tree City of the World. And I'm meeting Catherine Nuttgens at Endcliffe Park. That's a 15 hectare open space opened in 1887 to commemorate the Jubilee of Queen Victoria. And interestingly, it isn't in the middle of the countryside; it is two miles from the city centre, the first in a series of connected green spaces, known collectively as Porter Valley Parks, all of which lie along the course of the Porter Brook. Well, although it really is coming to spring, we've been hit with some rather unseasonable snow, and I thought we were going to start with some snow sound effects, but actually this is a very fast-moving river that I'm standing by and I am meeting Catherine. Hello. So, Catherine, just explain a bit about who you are first of all.  Catherine: OK. Yes, I'm Catherine Nuttgens. I used to be the urban lead for the Woodland Trust, but I've just moved into independent work as an urban forester, an independent urban forester.  Adam: Fantastic. And you have. We've arranged to meet by this. I was gonna say babbling brook. It's really much more than that, isn't it? So is this the river? The local river.  Catherine: This is the River Porter, so this is one of five rivers in Sheffield. And it runs all the way up the Porter Valley, which is where we're going to be walking today.  Adam: Let's head off. So I have no idea where I'm going.  Catherine: Going that way. OK, yes, let's go. Let's go this way.   Adam: OK. You sound already confused.  Catherine: I was going to look at that. I was going to look at that tree over there. Cause we planted it. Is it still alive?  Adam: We can go have a look at that. It's still alive.  Catherine: Which tree? This tree? Here it's just so a total aside for everything that we're doing.  Adam: We're already getting sidetracked. You see, if a tree was planted.  Catherine: So yeah, I mean, this was one of... my old role at Sheffield Council was being community forestry manager and our role was to plant trees around the city. So one of the things that we planted were these War Memorial trees and it's very hard if you plant a tree to not go back to it and say, how's it doing? Is it OK? This is it, it's looking OK.  Adam: This looks more than OK and also it's still got three poppy wreaths on it from Remembrance Sunday. And a dedication, lest we forget: to all the brave men and women of Sheffield who gave their lives and those who hereafter continue to give in pursuit of freedom and peace. 2018 it was planted.  Catherine: One of the reasons I want to check it: it's quite a challenging place to plant a tree as there's an awful lot of football here. So the ground is really compacted, I think it's a red oak.   Adam: A red oak.  Catherine: That should be the right tree for this place. When they go in, they need so much water and it's 60 litres of water a week when it's dry, so keeping them alive, especially when the ground is so compacted is quite a challenge. It's something that happens all around the country is that people think ‘I've planted a tree and now I can walk away'. But actually the real work goes into sort of making sure trees have got enough water. So that they can, you know, for at least the first sort of two or three years of planting. So that they can survive to the good.  Adam: Brilliant. Alright. Well, look, we've already got distracted. We we've, we haven't even started. We've gone the wrong direction. But anyway, your oak is doing very well indeed.   Catherine: I'm sorry. It's it's, it's good.  Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we're going and why, why you've taken me on this particular trip.  Catherine: Sheffield is actually the most wooded, well, it's the most treed and wooded city in Europe. There are more trees per head in Sheffield than there are in any other city in Europe. So I thought the Porter Valley is quite good because there's quite a lot of cafés on the way. So that's quite good. But also it was a great way of describing about how the, how the landscape of Sheffield has kind of shaped the city and how how kind of people are shaped by the landscape also. The landscape is, you know, is is shaped by the people and, and here's a real case in point, because although it all looks very beautiful now and as we go up the valley  you'll see, you know it, it gets more rural. Actually it's all artificial. This is a post-industrial landscape.  Adam: So I mean when you say that, I mean this is this is a creative landscape this, so that I don't really understand what you mean. I mean they didn't knock, you didn't knock down factories. This must have been natural ground.  Catherine: Well, it was natural, but basically Sheffield started Sheffield famous for iron and steel, and it's also on the edge of the Peak District. So there's there's these five very fast flowing rivers that actually provided the power for the grinding holes are places where they made blades and scissors and scythes and all these different things. And so along rivers like this one, there were what were called the like, grinding hulls, the little factories where they they use the the power of the water to sharpen those blades and to you know, to forge them and things. As we go further up, we'll start to see how the Porter kind of has been sort of sectioned off. It's been chopped up and made into ponds. There's what we call goits that go off and they would have been the little streams that go off and power each, each grinding hull along here.  Adam: I mean you you say Sheffield is the most wooded city in the UK per head, and yet it hit the headlines a few years ago when the council started chopping down trees. And it wasn't entirely clear why, but the the local population were up in arms. So why was that? Is was that an aberration, or was that a change in policy?   Catherine  No, I mean people call Sheffield, the outdoor city. People in Sheffield have always been really connected to their trees. But I think when we got to the, you know, for the street tree protest, you know, the vision was beautiful, flat pavements and there were just these annoying trees in the way that were lifting all the paving slabs and everything. We thought what we need is lovely flat pavements, all the people that are complaining about trees all the time, they'll be really happy. But obviously that wasn't the case because people actually do quite like the trees. So what happened here was that the the council decided to send to send a crew to fell in the middle of the night, and then so they knocked on. Yeah. It was, yeah, honestly. Yeah, it was mad so. The the policemen came, knocked on people's doors, said ‘sorry, can you move your cars? Because we want to cut down the trees.' And now obviously if a policeman knocks on your door in the middle of the night, you know, it's it's pretty scary. So the ladies that they did that to said no, I think I'm going to sit under this tree instead. And it was just mad. Just think, what are they doing? Because it was in the Guardian, like the morning, it got international by the sort of lunchtime. And it was if, if you wanted a way to create an international protest movement about trees, so that's the way to do it. So. But I mean, that was the thing Sheffield is, so it's not an affluent city, but people do stuff in Sheffield, you know, something's happened, someone's doing a thing about it, and they're really good at organising. And in the end, thank goodness the council stopped. If there are things going on in your city, dialogue is always the best way, and consulting and co-designing with the public is so important because it's that's what these trees are for. They're here to benefit people. So if you're not discussing kind of the plans with the people then you know, it's not it's you're not properly doing your job, really.  Adam: And you said there's lots of choice of places to go with trees in and around Sheffield. And the reason you've chosen this particular place is why? Why does this stand out?  Catherine: Well, I think I mean, first of all, it's quite it it, it is a beautiful valley that's kind of very accessible. We've got, I mean here the kind of manufactured you know the Porter has been Victorianised, it's all got these lovely little rills and things. Little rills. You know where little rills kind of maybe that's the wrong word, but the kind of.  Adam: No, but I do. Teaching me so many new words. So what is the rill?  Catherine: So you know, just kind of little bits in the the stream where they've made it, you know, kind of little rocks and things.  Adam: Like rocks. Yeah, that is beautiful. They're like tiny little waterfalls. It's wonderful. I love it.  Catherine: So here for example, I mean looks lovely like these ponds that we have. I mean there's always there's things like the, the kingfishers and and there's the kind of Endcliffe Park Heron that everyone takes pictures of. And there are often Mandarin ducks. I think we passed some Mandarin ducks earlier on, didn't we? But this is actually. This is a holding pool for what would have sort of, how would the grinding hull that now has gone. So it's actually a piece of industrial heritage. Yeah, it looks, I mean, it has now all been kind of made nice. In the ‘30s some of these pools were were kind of put over to and probably in Victorian times as well. They're actually swimming areas. They converted them into swimming.  Adam: I mean the water, I mean, you can't see this if you're listening, but water's super muddy or or brown. It's not appealing to swim in, I'll just say, but OK, no, no one does that these days.  Catherine: No. Well, they they do up at Crookes, actually. There are people going swimming that that's a, that's a fishing lake. So it's much deeper, but it's a little bit.  Adam: Are you a wild swimmer?   Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. Let's go out into the peak a bit more and out into the the lovely bit.  Adam: Ohh wow, you said that's the way to. I mean, I can't get into a swimming pool unless it's bath temperature, let alone.  Catherine: It's lovely in the summer. I'm not a cold swimmer, right? But I do love it in in the summer. It's not. I mean, that's what's great about Sheffield, really. And that, like, there's so much nature just within sort of 20 minutes' walk. I mean, some people just get on their bike and go out into the peak and whether it's you're a climber or a wild swimmer or a runner or just a walker, or you just like beautiful things. You know? It's it's it's kind of here.  Adam: And there is an extraordinary amount of water, I mean. It's, I mean, you probably can hear this, but there seems to be river on all sides of us. It's so we've been walking up the Porter Brook, which you can hear in the background and we've come across Shepherd Wheel a water powered grinding hull last worked in the 1930s.  Catherine: Come this way a little bit. You can see the there's the wheel that they've put together. So inside. I'm just wondering whether we can through a window we can look in. But so so Sheffield say a very independent sort of a place. The what used to happen is the the little mesters there were they hired. They were men.   Adam: Sorry that's another word. What was a mester?  Catherine: That is another word. A mester. That is. I mean. So I think it was like a little master, so like a master cutler or whatever. A little master. But but in in there there were there were individual grinding grindstones right with the benches, the grinding benches on and they hired a bench to do their own piece work. So so it was very independent, everyone was self-employed and you know they they. So the wheel actually sort of was important for probably quite a few livelihoods.  Adam: We've come up to a big sign ‘Shepherd's Wheel in the Porter Valley'. Well, look at this. Turn the wheel to find out more. Select. Oh, no idea what's going. You hold on a sec. Absolutely nothing. It's it's it's, it's, it's, it's a local joke to make tourists look idiotic. Look, there's another nutter just turning a wheel. That does nothing.  Catherine: And actually an interesting well timber fact is that up in North Sheffield there's a wood called Woolley Wood there and all the trees were a lot of the trees are hornbeam trees. Now hornbeam is really good, as its name might suggest, because it it was used to make make the cogs for for for kind of structures like this, because the the wood was so very hard and also it was quite waterproof. There's actually when the wheel bits were replaced here they used oak. But one of the I think one of the problems with oak is that it's got lots of tannins in that can actually rot the iron work. So so actually. There's kind of knowledge that's been lost about how to use timber in an industrial way and and.  Adam: So if you happen to be building a water wheel, hornbeam is, your go-to wood. I'm sure there's not many people out there building water wheels, but you know very useful information if you are. All right, you better lead on.  Catherine: I think we can head unless you want to go, won't go down that way or go along along here much. There we go. We'll cross. We'll go this way. I think. Probably go down here. Yeah, this has got a great name, this road. It's Hanging Water Road, which I'm not sure I would think. It must be a big waterfall somewhere. I'm not sure whether there is one right so. It's just a a good name. So yeah, so this is more I think going into more kind of established woodland. Still see we've got the two rivers here.  Adam: So tell me about where we're heading off to now.  Catherine: We're going up into. I think there's a certainly Whitley Woods is up this way and there's one called Bluebell Woods, which would indicate you know, ancient... bluebells are an ancient woodland indicator, and so that would suggest that actually these are the bits where the trees have been here for much a much longer time. I think there's still kind of one of the things that they try and do in Sheffield, is kind of bring the woods back into traditional woodland management, where you would have had something with called coppice with standards. So the coppice wood was cut down for charcoal burning cause. So the charcoal, these woods, all these many, many woods across Sheffield fuelled all this steel work. You know they need. That was the the heat that they needed. So charcoal burning was quite a big industry. And and the other thing is that's good for us is that actually having kind of areas of open woodlands, you know, open glades and things, it's really, really good for biodiversity because you have that edge effect and you know, opens up to woodland butterflies and things like that.  Adam: We're just passing an amazing house built on stilts on the side side of this hill, which has got this great view of the river.  Catherine: There's. Yeah, there's some incredible houses around here.  Adam: Where? Where so which where are we heading?  Catherine: We'll go back down that way.  Adam: OK. All right. You may be able to hear it's not just the river, it is now raining. And actually it's all making the snow a bit slushy, but we're on our way back. We're going to meet a colleague of yours. Is that right?  Catherine: That's right. Yeah. So Stella Bolam, who. She's a community forestry officer who works for Sheffield City Council. She's going to be joining us. And yeah, she worked with me when I was working for the council and is in charge of planting trees with communities across Sheffield.  Adam: OK, so Stella, hi. So, yeah, so. Well, thank you very much for joining me on this rather wet day on the outskirts of Sheffield. So just tell me a little bit about what you do.  Stella: Yeah, of course. So our team, community forestry, we basically plant trees with people. It's our tagline, I suppose, and so we we work with community groups and schools to plant those trees and provide aftercare in the first three years, two-three years.  Adam: Aftercare for the trees. Yeah, yeah.  Stella: Yes. Ohh obviously for the people as well I mean.  Adam: What sort of? Give me an example of the type of people you're working with and what you're actually achieving.  Stella: Yeah, yeah. So I can tell you about a couple of projects I did. When I first joined a couple of years ago. So one was in an area called Lowedges, which is quite a deprived area of Sheffield. In the south of Sheffield. And we worked with a couple of local groups that were already formed to build, to plant a hedge line through the park. It's quite long. It's about 2000 whips we planted, and we also worked with a group called Kids Plant Trees, who advocate nature-based activities for children, which obviously includes planting trees, and we work with a couple of local schools. So we map all the trees that we plant and so for our records.   Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this?  Stella: I a couple of years ago I changed careers.   Adam: You were a journalist. Is that right?  Stella: I was a journalist. Yeah.   Adam: What sort of journalist?  Stella: I did print journalism and that.   Adam: Local through the local newspapers?  Stella: No, I worked in London for at least 10 years. I worked in London. I moved up to Sheffield and I was a copywriter.  Adam: Right. So a very different world. So it wasn't wasn't about nature. You weren't. You weren't the environment correspondent or anything.  Stella: It was very different. No, no, not at all. It's human interest stories, though. So I've always been interested in in people and communities, and that that's the thing that I've tried to embed in my work in forestry as well and trying to sort of help people connect to nature and understand that that connection a bit more.  Adam: You've moved around the country and we've been talking about how important trees are to people in Sheffield in particular. Is that true? Is that your experience, that it is different here?  Stella: Yes, they're very passionate about trees and that can go either way. So you know there's people that love them and people that are actually quite scared of them.   Adam: Scared? Why? Why scared?  Stella: Yeah, I think because a lot of people don't understand trees and they think they're going to fall over. They say things like, oh, look at, it's moving in the wind. And I sort of say, well, that's natural, that's how they grow, right? But obviously I wasn't taught that at school. So people don't have that general understanding about trees. So I try to sort of, I suppose, gently educate people if they do say negative things. Because I obviously do love trees and you know, I think they give us so much,   Adam: And you said you work with a lot of schools.  Stella: Yeah.  Adam: Do you feel young people have a particularly different view of nature and trees than older generations? Do you see any distinction there at all?  Stella: Yes, I think though, because of the climate emergency we're in, I think kids now are much more attuned with what's going on with you know, are the changes that are happening in our climate. So we do incorporate a little bit of education in our work with schools. So we talk to them about trees, why they're important, and we'll often let them answer. We won't tell them they'll put up their hands and say, well, because they give us oxygen or, you know, the animals need them. So I didn't know anything about that when I was at school. So I think that's probably quite a major change.  Adam: You must know the area quite well, and there's lots of different parts of woodlands in and around Sheffield, so for those who are visiting, apart from this bit, where would you recommend? What's your favourite bits?  Stella: Ohh well I I like the woods near me actually. So I I live in an area called Gleadless and Heely and there's there's Gleadless have have got various woodlands there. They're ancient woodlands and they're not very well known, but they're absolutely amazing. But the other famous one in Sheffield is Ecclesall Woods. Yes, it's very famous here. It's kind of the flagship ancient woodland. It's the biggest one in South Yorkshire.  Adam: And you talked about getting into this industry in this career, you're both our our experts, both women that that is unusual. Most of the people I I meet working in this industry are men. Is that first of all is that true and is that changing?  Stella: It is true. Yeah, I think it's currently about I'm. I'm also a board member and trustee of the Arboricultural Association, so I know some of these statistics around the membership of that organisation and I think there's. It's between about 11 and 15% of their members are women. So yes, it is male and it's also not very ethnically diverse either. I think it is changing and I think I can see that sometimes even when I'm working with kids. And you know, young girls who are you can see they're like really interested. And I sort of always say to them, you know, you can do, you can work with trees when you when you're grown up, you can have a job working with trees. And like a lot of sectors, I think traditionally men have dominated. And I think a lot of women sort of self-select themselves, edit them out of their options, really, cause you you're not told about these things. I mean, I'd never heard of arboriculture five years ago.  Adam: We've we've just rejoined the riverbank. It's quite wide. So this is the Porters River? Porter Brook been told that so many times today I keep forgetting that the Porter River, no didn't quite get it right. Porter Brook. Is it normally this high? I mean it's properly going fast, isn't it? Think that's amazing.  Stella: Yeah. So I was going to just have a chat with you a little bit about a project called Eat Trees Sheffield.  Adam: Yes, OK.  Stella: Yeah. So this is a project that was initiated by an organisation called Regather Cooperative, but they also are massive advocates of supporting a local sustainable food system and as part of that, it's harvesting apples. And they make a beautiful pasteurised apple juice from apples locally.  Adam: From an actual planted orchard?  Stella: No so well, they actually have just planted an orchard, but no, they basically accept donations from the community.  Adam: So if someone's got an apple tree in their garden. They they pull off the apples and send it in.  Stella: Yeah, well, they have to bring them in. Yeah. And they have to be in a certain condition that they're good for juicing, but yes. And then they get a proportion of the juice back the the people that have donated get some juice back.   Adam: A fantastic idea. Fantastic.   Stella: Yeah. And then they obviously sell the juice as part of their more commercial offering. But yeah.  Adam: That's wonderful. So if you, if you've got a couple of apple trees in your garden, and you live around the Sheffield area, what's the the name of the charity?  Stella: It's called Regather Cooperative. So, we're trying to create a network of people that, basically, can be connected to each other and build skills to look after these orchards because they do need looking after and valuing. They're very important, so yeah.  Adam: Yeah, sort of connects people to their very local trees. It's interesting. I have a a very good friend of mine in London. Who does sort of guerilla gardening. And on the the street trees has just planted runner beans and things coming up so so you know it just grows up. You can see people walking down and going oh, are those beans hanging off the trees? and you she you know, just pops out and grabs some and goes and cooks with them. And you know I'm not. I always think. I'm not sure I'd want to eat some some stuff from this street tree because God knows how. What happens there? But I I love the idea. I think it's a really fun idea.  Stella: So it's just it's been nice meeting you.  Adam: Well, same here. So we're back, we're back by the river.  Catherine: By the river all along the river.   Adam: All along, so yes. Final thoughts?   Catherine: Yeah. So I mean, it's been so great to have, you know, have you visit Sheffield today, Adam. Like, it's always such a privilege to to show people around kind of the bits of our city that are so beautiful. Well, I think, you know, just this walk today in the Porter Valley and the fact that there's so many trees where there used to be industry is something that Sheffield's had going for it I think throughout the whole of its history. The the woodlands were originally so important to be the green lungs of the city - that was really recognised at the turn of the 20th century. But now if you go into the city centre, there's projects like Grey to Green, which is basically where they used to be a very, rather ugly road running round the back of the city centre, which has now been converted into 1.5 kilometres of active travel routes, and there the space has been made for trees. So instead of roads now there's kind of special soil and trees and plants and grasses and things like that. They're like, they look amazing, but also they help to combat climate change. So when the rains fall like they have done at the moment, the trees slow down all the flow of the water going into the River Don, it stops Rotherham from flooding further down. But it also helps well it also encourages people to visit the city centre and enjoy the shade of the trees and, you know, takes up some of the pollution that's in the city. And I think it's, you know, this kind of new kind of thinking where we're actually not just looking after the woods we've already got and letting it grow. Actually making new spaces for trees, which I find really exciting and you know, hopefully that's going to be the future of not just Sheffield, but lots of cities around the country.  Adam: That's a brilliant thought to end on. Thank you very much for a fantastic day out and I was worried that it would be really wet and horrible and actually, yet again it's been quite pretty, the snow and it's only rained a little bit on us. Look, a squirrel.   Adam: Well, I hope you enjoyed that visit to one of Sheffield's open wooded spaces, and if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to the Woodland Trust website woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wanderings.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Flyover Friday, December 15, 2023Intro: On this episode of The Heartland POD for Friday, December 15th, 2023A flyover from this weeks top heartland stories including:Welcome to The Heartland POD for a Flyover Friday, this is Sean Diller in Denver, Colorado. With me as co-host today is Adam Sommer, how you doing Adam?We're glad to have you with us. If you're new to our shows make sure you subscribe and leave a 5 star rating wherever you listen. You can also find Heartland POD content on Youtube and on social media with @ THE heartland pod, and learn more at thehearltandcollective.com  SEAN: Speaking of - the website over at  THE HEARTLAND COLLECTIVE DOT COM - if you have not yet checked it out, it is full of not just shows but articles too, including a recent on on abortion laws by Rachel Parker, really sharp stuff.  ADAM: Yeah, hats off to you and the team, shout out my and special thanks to Allyn for all the work, I think folks will like what they find over there at the site, and that article by Rachel goes great with the pod from Wednesday which was Rachel with Jess Piper and Laura Belin was back from Bleeding Heartland, a powerhouse group of women talking about abortion laws, absolutely not to be missed.  SEAN:  Plus, we're back in the saddle this coming week with the LAST CALL shows, which are for members only, we have a lot of fun on those shows and that's for patreon members, you can sign up today, $5 per month unlocks that feature, go to THE HEARTLAND COLLECTIVE DOT COM and click the button to sign up today to join us for those member only bonus shows. Alright! Let's get into the storiesSOURCES: Wisconsin Examiner, Missouri Independent, St. Louis Post Dispatch, Ohio Capital Journal, Colorado Newsline; Indiana Capitol Chronicle  Rep. Sarah Unsicker has pulled out of the Dem AG primary after a two week period in which she appears to have had serious issues pop upVery odd turn of events, disgusting anti-semetic smears and a final move of a Dark Night jOker like videoMissouri Dem leader and candidate for Governor, Crystal Quade, is taking the charge on the abortion issue in Missouri.  https://x.com/crystal_quade/status/1735330641967759416?s=20Sen. Josh Hawley (drop) has failed to include funding for nuclear waste cleanup for Missourians.  https://missouriindependent.com/2023/12/12/defense-radioactive-senate-st-lous/Wisconsin Secretary of State calls for removal of fake elector who was part of 2020 scheme for Donald Trump  https://wisconsinexaminer.com/2023/12/11/wisconsin-secretary-of-state-calls-for-removal-of-election-commissioner-who-served-as-fake-elector/Wisconsin Secretary of State Sarah Godlewski and the two Democrats on the Senate elections committee are calling for Senate Majority Leader Devin LeMahieu (R-Oostburg) to remove state elections commissioner Robert Spindell from his position.  Democrats are calling for Spindell's removal because he served as a fake elector following the 2020 presidential election, casting a false Electoral College vote for former President Donald Trump despite Joe Biden's victory in the state. Last week, Spindell and the nine other Republicans who  joined him settled a lawsuit against them for their actions — stating publicly that Biden had won the election and agreeing not to serve as electors for Trump again.On Monday, Godlewski said Wisconsinites can't trust Spindell to have a say in how the state's elections are run.  “Wisconsin Election Commissioner Robert Spindell Jr. admitted that he was not a qualified 2020 presidential elector and co-signed a fraudulent Certificate of Votes and submitted them to my office,” Godlewski said in a statement. “That unlawful certificate was used as part of a larger scheme to overturn the election. The people of Wisconsin cannot trust the integrity and moral compass of Commissioner Spindell to administer our elections. Senator LeMahieu should immediately remove him from Wisconsin's Election Commission.”Democrats on the Senate elections committee, Sens. Jeff Smith (D-Eau Claire) and Mark Spreitzer (D-Beloit) said Monday that Spindell's admission that he participated in an effort to overturn the election results should be enough for him to resign or for LeMahieu to remove him.  “Bob Spindell has continued to serve without any repercussions for his actions and statements celebrating lower turnout and successful voter suppression,” the two senators said in a statement. “Now, Bob Spindell has admitted his involvement in the scheme to illegally overturn the 2020 presidential election, and it is abundantly clear that the Senate Majority Leader's excuses and deflections must come to an end. Bob Spindell has admitted to signing and sending false documents claiming that he was a presidential elector for the state of Wisconsin. If there were any remaining questions about whether Bob Spindell should go, they were answered when he finally acknowledged that he signed falsified documents submitted to public officials despite President Joe Biden winning the 2020 election in Wisconsin. Bob Spindell should resign. If he doesn't, Senator LeMahieu must remove him. We understand the Wisconsin Elections Commission is made up of partisan appointees, but surely Senator LeMahieu can find a different Republican who didn't attempt to illegally overturn a presidential election. The people of Wisconsin deserve better than Bob Spindell.”  Democratic Rep. Keri Ingle of Lee's Summit calls for removal of STL area Shrewsberry Rep. Unsicker from Democratic caucus in Missouri  https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/government-politics/missouri-house-democrat-calls-for-ouster-of-shrewsbury-state-rep-from-caucus/article_8b475036-9945-11ee-b25d-e3f3e17972df.htmlRep. Keri Ingle, D-Lee's Summit, said in a news release that state Rep. Sarah Unsicker of Shrewsbury “failed to denounce” antisemitic attacks, as well as accusations that members of their caucus worked for the Israeli government, in a recent livestreamed conversation with conspiracy theorists.Her press release said Democratic caucus leadership should “begin the process” of removing her.“As long as she persists in enabling and spreading this kind of rhetoric, I believe my Democratic colleagues must take swift action to uphold our caucus' commitment to fight and confront hate and intolerance by ousting her from our ranks,” Ingle said.Her press release added that Unsicker had helped “propagate hateful, antisemitic, and conspiratorial and racist rhetoric which has hurt people and sparked online harassment campaigns.”Ohio Legislation for so called “Parent's Bill Of Rights” gets push backhttps://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2023/12/13/counselors-psychologists-and-school-officials-speak-out-against-parents-bill-of-rights/Dozens, including school counselors and psychiatrists, testified Tuesday against a bill in the Ohio Senate that would force schools to notify parents on “sexuality” content, and possibly on a student's sexuality, calling it “censorship” and potentially risky for students.“Young people are people who are entitled to their own privacy,” said Mallory Golski, of the Kaleidoscope Youth Center. “Young people are people who should have the freedom to read stories that reflect their own lives and experiences.”Ohio House Bill 8 could be up for a vote this week, as the bill seeks to put the control of education more into parent's hands, by allowing them to opt out of certain curricula based on the “sexuality” content. According to one of the bill's sponsors, state Rep. D.J. Swearingen, R-Huron, school districts would also be “prohibited from keeping changes in the health of the student from their parent, and the school district is also prohibited from encouraging the student to hide these issues from their parents.”Amanda Erickson, also of the Kaleidoscope Youth Center, worried about the impact the bill will have on teachers, who may not only be required to speak with parents about information they were told by a student, but could also be impacted themselves, based on their own life choices.Erickson herself trained as a teacher, before she moved on to the nonprofit sector after graduation. A career in a classroom did not appeal to her after the efforts of the Ohio legislature, now and in the past.“Why would I want to be a teacher in Ohio when my legislators are so obsessed with gender and sexuality that they do not have time to pass legislation that would actually improve our schools,” Erickson asked of the Senate Education Committee.Erickson also argued that the law might ban her and others from putting family pictures on her desk, as it might suggest a discussion she's not allowed to have.“Since this bill does not define ‘sexual concepts' or ‘gender ideology,' there are those who would argue that my wedding photo or the questions it could prompt would qualify as one or the other,” Erickson said.The committee heard from some that currently are in the education field with members of the Ohio School Psychologists Association and the Ohio School Counselor Association both submitting in opposition to the bill, saying the bill is “not workable,” and ignores parents as an already “key tenet” in a student's education. The Missouri and Kansas border war went from civil war to friendly sports rivalry, and is reemerging as a political battle about health carehttps://missouriindependent.com/2023/12/11/university-of-kansas-deal-with-missouri-hospital-feels-terribly-wrong-to-lawmakers/The proposed takeover of Liberty Hospital in Missouri by the University of Kansas Health System is being greeted with scorn by lawmakers from both sides of the state line and both political parties.Leading the charge against the takeover in Missouri is Kansas City Democratic state Sen. Greg Razer, who said the idea of KU owning a hospital in suburban Missouri is “terribly wrong.”“There are boundaries for a reason, and they've crossed one,” said Razer, a graduate of the University of Missouri-Columbia.The Republican leader of the Kansas Senate also has expressed concern about the takeover, along with at least one member of Liberty Hospital's board of trustees.Earlier this month, Razer pre-filed a bill in the Missouri General Assembly that would put a stop to a proposed partnership between the University of Kansas Health System and Liberty Hospital by prohibiting hospital boards to partner with an out-of-state health system “operated by an institution of higher education” without voter approval.“I can't imagine the outrage of Missouri taxpayers if we opened up (University of Missouri) Health in Olathe, Kansas,” Razer said, calling the proposed arrangement “mind boggling.”Liberty Hospital announced in May it was looking to partner with another health system to help it expand to meet growing demand in the Kansas City suburbs north of the Missouri River. In October, it announced it had chosen KU.The two health systems have signed a letter of intent but are still in negotiations, and the terms of the deal are not yet available. But Liberty Hospital CEO Dr. Raghu Adiga said in an interview Friday that KU had pledged to continue the services the hospital provides, including cardiothoracic surgery and a level-two trauma center.  Adiga said those are rare for a hospital Liberty's size.“They put the patients first just like us,” Adiga said, “ensuring high-quality health care that we can provide right here in town.”In a video announcing the deal in October, he said the partnership “will bring world class clinical excellence across the river to every Northlander's doorstep.”Razer said the arrangement would take health care dollars from Missouri to “prop up Kansas,” and feared it would be a recruiting tool for the University of Kansas.  “Liberty has a lot of high school students. … They get great grades. It's a great school district up there. They're all going to be driving by a Jayhawk every day in the state of Missouri,” Razer said.Razer's primary objection centered on the idea of having a Kansas state institution plant its flag in Missouri.The University of Kansas Health System is governed by the University of Kansas Hospital Authority, a board established in Kansas statute, primarily appointed by the Kansas governor and affiliated with the University of Kansas School of Medicine. But the health system hasn't been owned by the state in 25 years. It receives no state or local tax dollars. Indiana, one of the most “red” states in the union, is struggling to keep up economically speakinghttps://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2023/12/13/hoosier-economic-policy-improving-slower-than-competitors-report-says/Indiana has improved on key economic development criteria in recent years, but has still fallen in national rankings, the influential Indiana Chamber of Commerce found in a report card Tuesday.The chamber in August released a vision for Indiana in 2035, with 31 goals for the state's education, entrepreneurship, economic growth, energy and infrastructure, health, quality of place and workforce.The report cards — expected to be biannual — log progress on 59 metrics related to those goals.Compared to previous years, the state scored better on about 67% of the metrics — but its national rankings on those metrics improved just 41% of the time.“What that tells us is that we're improving overall — but the progress isn't happening fast enough, because other states are improving at a faster pace,” outgoing President and CEO Kevin Brinegar told reporters Tuesday. “We need to pick up the pace.”Indiana's strongest performance was a third-place ranking for the 11% of Hoosiers working in knowledge- and technology-intensive industries, like manufacturing or software development.It came in fourth for the 63% of foreign-born Hoosiers with science or engineering bachelor's degrees, as well as for the 10% of non-white workers who are self-employed.More Rail Service In Colorado… coming soon?  https://coloradonewsline.com/briefs/front-range-rail-development/Front Range Passenger Rail District will get a $500,000 planning grant as part of the federal Corridor ID program, which aims to help development of intercity passenger rail projects. The idea, Bose said, is to get projects into the pipeline for implementation, eventually connecting an entire corridor of cities to rail service.The Front Range Passenger Rail District, which was created through 2021 legislation, is planning a rail line that would connect cities between Fort Collins and Pueblo.“Colorado is very, very well positioned in the Corridor ID program,” Bose said, partly because the district has already defined the scope of its service development program and can move forward to the second step of the program. There are “tens of millions of dollars” for project planning now that the scope is set.The Colorado project is one of 70 that the Federal Railroad Administration selected to get money from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.“The fact that we have a federal administration that's committed to helping us dream up and execute a project like this is not an opportunity that we can take for granted. I think it shows us what kind of a moment we have,” Lew said.Polis is pushing a housing agenda that encourages development along transit corridors, and he is likely to champion related legislation next year. Though the state is years away from putting Front Range residents onto passenger rail cars, the agenda represents a goal for people to live near their primary mode of transportation and commute more easily without adding traffic congestion.“Coupled with bus rapid transit and transit oriented neighborhoods, passenger rail is a huge lynchpin in this vision we have for smarter growth, for improving affordability, livability and sustainability as Colorado grows,” Polis said.   @TheHeartlandPOD on Twitter and ThreadsCo-HostsAdam Sommer @Adam_Sommer85 (Twitter) @adam_sommer85 (Post)Rachel Parker @msraitchetp (Post) Sean Diller (no social)The Heartland Collective - Sign Up Today!JOIN PATREON FOR MORE - AND JOIN OUR SOCIAL NETWORK!“Change The Conversation”Outro Song: “The World Is On Fire” by American Aquarium http://www.americanaquarium.com/

Flyover Friday, December 15, 2023Intro: On this episode of The Heartland POD for Friday, December 15th, 2023A flyover from this weeks top heartland stories including:Welcome to The Heartland POD for a Flyover Friday, this is Sean Diller in Denver, Colorado. With me as co-host today is Adam Sommer, how you doing Adam?We're glad to have you with us. If you're new to our shows make sure you subscribe and leave a 5 star rating wherever you listen. You can also find Heartland POD content on Youtube and on social media with @ THE heartland pod, and learn more at thehearltandcollective.com  SEAN: Speaking of - the website over at  THE HEARTLAND COLLECTIVE DOT COM - if you have not yet checked it out, it is full of not just shows but articles too, including a recent on on abortion laws by Rachel Parker, really sharp stuff.  ADAM: Yeah, hats off to you and the team, shout out my and special thanks to Allyn for all the work, I think folks will like what they find over there at the site, and that article by Rachel goes great with the pod from Wednesday which was Rachel with Jess Piper and Laura Belin was back from Bleeding Heartland, a powerhouse group of women talking about abortion laws, absolutely not to be missed.  SEAN:  Plus, we're back in the saddle this coming week with the LAST CALL shows, which are for members only, we have a lot of fun on those shows and that's for patreon members, you can sign up today, $5 per month unlocks that feature, go to THE HEARTLAND COLLECTIVE DOT COM and click the button to sign up today to join us for those member only bonus shows. Alright! Let's get into the storiesSOURCES: Wisconsin Examiner, Missouri Independent, St. Louis Post Dispatch, Ohio Capital Journal, Colorado Newsline; Indiana Capitol Chronicle  Rep. Sarah Unsicker has pulled out of the Dem AG primary after a two week period in which she appears to have had serious issues pop upVery odd turn of events, disgusting anti-semetic smears and a final move of a Dark Night jOker like videoMissouri Dem leader and candidate for Governor, Crystal Quade, is taking the charge on the abortion issue in Missouri.  https://x.com/crystal_quade/status/1735330641967759416?s=20Sen. Josh Hawley (drop) has failed to include funding for nuclear waste cleanup for Missourians.  https://missouriindependent.com/2023/12/12/defense-radioactive-senate-st-lous/Wisconsin Secretary of State calls for removal of fake elector who was part of 2020 scheme for Donald Trump  https://wisconsinexaminer.com/2023/12/11/wisconsin-secretary-of-state-calls-for-removal-of-election-commissioner-who-served-as-fake-elector/Wisconsin Secretary of State Sarah Godlewski and the two Democrats on the Senate elections committee are calling for Senate Majority Leader Devin LeMahieu (R-Oostburg) to remove state elections commissioner Robert Spindell from his position.  Democrats are calling for Spindell's removal because he served as a fake elector following the 2020 presidential election, casting a false Electoral College vote for former President Donald Trump despite Joe Biden's victory in the state. Last week, Spindell and the nine other Republicans who  joined him settled a lawsuit against them for their actions — stating publicly that Biden had won the election and agreeing not to serve as electors for Trump again.On Monday, Godlewski said Wisconsinites can't trust Spindell to have a say in how the state's elections are run.  “Wisconsin Election Commissioner Robert Spindell Jr. admitted that he was not a qualified 2020 presidential elector and co-signed a fraudulent Certificate of Votes and submitted them to my office,” Godlewski said in a statement. “That unlawful certificate was used as part of a larger scheme to overturn the election. The people of Wisconsin cannot trust the integrity and moral compass of Commissioner Spindell to administer our elections. Senator LeMahieu should immediately remove him from Wisconsin's Election Commission.”Democrats on the Senate elections committee, Sens. Jeff Smith (D-Eau Claire) and Mark Spreitzer (D-Beloit) said Monday that Spindell's admission that he participated in an effort to overturn the election results should be enough for him to resign or for LeMahieu to remove him.  “Bob Spindell has continued to serve without any repercussions for his actions and statements celebrating lower turnout and successful voter suppression,” the two senators said in a statement. “Now, Bob Spindell has admitted his involvement in the scheme to illegally overturn the 2020 presidential election, and it is abundantly clear that the Senate Majority Leader's excuses and deflections must come to an end. Bob Spindell has admitted to signing and sending false documents claiming that he was a presidential elector for the state of Wisconsin. If there were any remaining questions about whether Bob Spindell should go, they were answered when he finally acknowledged that he signed falsified documents submitted to public officials despite President Joe Biden winning the 2020 election in Wisconsin. Bob Spindell should resign. If he doesn't, Senator LeMahieu must remove him. We understand the Wisconsin Elections Commission is made up of partisan appointees, but surely Senator LeMahieu can find a different Republican who didn't attempt to illegally overturn a presidential election. The people of Wisconsin deserve better than Bob Spindell.”  Democratic Rep. Keri Ingle of Lee's Summit calls for removal of STL area Shrewsberry Rep. Unsicker from Democratic caucus in Missouri  https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/government-politics/missouri-house-democrat-calls-for-ouster-of-shrewsbury-state-rep-from-caucus/article_8b475036-9945-11ee-b25d-e3f3e17972df.htmlRep. Keri Ingle, D-Lee's Summit, said in a news release that state Rep. Sarah Unsicker of Shrewsbury “failed to denounce” antisemitic attacks, as well as accusations that members of their caucus worked for the Israeli government, in a recent livestreamed conversation with conspiracy theorists.Her press release said Democratic caucus leadership should “begin the process” of removing her.“As long as she persists in enabling and spreading this kind of rhetoric, I believe my Democratic colleagues must take swift action to uphold our caucus' commitment to fight and confront hate and intolerance by ousting her from our ranks,” Ingle said.Her press release added that Unsicker had helped “propagate hateful, antisemitic, and conspiratorial and racist rhetoric which has hurt people and sparked online harassment campaigns.”Ohio Legislation for so called “Parent's Bill Of Rights” gets push backhttps://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2023/12/13/counselors-psychologists-and-school-officials-speak-out-against-parents-bill-of-rights/Dozens, including school counselors and psychiatrists, testified Tuesday against a bill in the Ohio Senate that would force schools to notify parents on “sexuality” content, and possibly on a student's sexuality, calling it “censorship” and potentially risky for students.“Young people are people who are entitled to their own privacy,” said Mallory Golski, of the Kaleidoscope Youth Center. “Young people are people who should have the freedom to read stories that reflect their own lives and experiences.”Ohio House Bill 8 could be up for a vote this week, as the bill seeks to put the control of education more into parent's hands, by allowing them to opt out of certain curricula based on the “sexuality” content. According to one of the bill's sponsors, state Rep. D.J. Swearingen, R-Huron, school districts would also be “prohibited from keeping changes in the health of the student from their parent, and the school district is also prohibited from encouraging the student to hide these issues from their parents.”Amanda Erickson, also of the Kaleidoscope Youth Center, worried about the impact the bill will have on teachers, who may not only be required to speak with parents about information they were told by a student, but could also be impacted themselves, based on their own life choices.Erickson herself trained as a teacher, before she moved on to the nonprofit sector after graduation. A career in a classroom did not appeal to her after the efforts of the Ohio legislature, now and in the past.“Why would I want to be a teacher in Ohio when my legislators are so obsessed with gender and sexuality that they do not have time to pass legislation that would actually improve our schools,” Erickson asked of the Senate Education Committee.Erickson also argued that the law might ban her and others from putting family pictures on her desk, as it might suggest a discussion she's not allowed to have.“Since this bill does not define ‘sexual concepts' or ‘gender ideology,' there are those who would argue that my wedding photo or the questions it could prompt would qualify as one or the other,” Erickson said.The committee heard from some that currently are in the education field with members of the Ohio School Psychologists Association and the Ohio School Counselor Association both submitting in opposition to the bill, saying the bill is “not workable,” and ignores parents as an already “key tenet” in a student's education. The Missouri and Kansas border war went from civil war to friendly sports rivalry, and is reemerging as a political battle about health carehttps://missouriindependent.com/2023/12/11/university-of-kansas-deal-with-missouri-hospital-feels-terribly-wrong-to-lawmakers/The proposed takeover of Liberty Hospital in Missouri by the University of Kansas Health System is being greeted with scorn by lawmakers from both sides of the state line and both political parties.Leading the charge against the takeover in Missouri is Kansas City Democratic state Sen. Greg Razer, who said the idea of KU owning a hospital in suburban Missouri is “terribly wrong.”“There are boundaries for a reason, and they've crossed one,” said Razer, a graduate of the University of Missouri-Columbia.The Republican leader of the Kansas Senate also has expressed concern about the takeover, along with at least one member of Liberty Hospital's board of trustees.Earlier this month, Razer pre-filed a bill in the Missouri General Assembly that would put a stop to a proposed partnership between the University of Kansas Health System and Liberty Hospital by prohibiting hospital boards to partner with an out-of-state health system “operated by an institution of higher education” without voter approval.“I can't imagine the outrage of Missouri taxpayers if we opened up (University of Missouri) Health in Olathe, Kansas,” Razer said, calling the proposed arrangement “mind boggling.”Liberty Hospital announced in May it was looking to partner with another health system to help it expand to meet growing demand in the Kansas City suburbs north of the Missouri River. In October, it announced it had chosen KU.The two health systems have signed a letter of intent but are still in negotiations, and the terms of the deal are not yet available. But Liberty Hospital CEO Dr. Raghu Adiga said in an interview Friday that KU had pledged to continue the services the hospital provides, including cardiothoracic surgery and a level-two trauma center.  Adiga said those are rare for a hospital Liberty's size.“They put the patients first just like us,” Adiga said, “ensuring high-quality health care that we can provide right here in town.”In a video announcing the deal in October, he said the partnership “will bring world class clinical excellence across the river to every Northlander's doorstep.”Razer said the arrangement would take health care dollars from Missouri to “prop up Kansas,” and feared it would be a recruiting tool for the University of Kansas.  “Liberty has a lot of high school students. … They get great grades. It's a great school district up there. They're all going to be driving by a Jayhawk every day in the state of Missouri,” Razer said.Razer's primary objection centered on the idea of having a Kansas state institution plant its flag in Missouri.The University of Kansas Health System is governed by the University of Kansas Hospital Authority, a board established in Kansas statute, primarily appointed by the Kansas governor and affiliated with the University of Kansas School of Medicine. But the health system hasn't been owned by the state in 25 years. It receives no state or local tax dollars. Indiana, one of the most “red” states in the union, is struggling to keep up economically speakinghttps://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2023/12/13/hoosier-economic-policy-improving-slower-than-competitors-report-says/Indiana has improved on key economic development criteria in recent years, but has still fallen in national rankings, the influential Indiana Chamber of Commerce found in a report card Tuesday.The chamber in August released a vision for Indiana in 2035, with 31 goals for the state's education, entrepreneurship, economic growth, energy and infrastructure, health, quality of place and workforce.The report cards — expected to be biannual — log progress on 59 metrics related to those goals.Compared to previous years, the state scored better on about 67% of the metrics — but its national rankings on those metrics improved just 41% of the time.“What that tells us is that we're improving overall — but the progress isn't happening fast enough, because other states are improving at a faster pace,” outgoing President and CEO Kevin Brinegar told reporters Tuesday. “We need to pick up the pace.”Indiana's strongest performance was a third-place ranking for the 11% of Hoosiers working in knowledge- and technology-intensive industries, like manufacturing or software development.It came in fourth for the 63% of foreign-born Hoosiers with science or engineering bachelor's degrees, as well as for the 10% of non-white workers who are self-employed.More Rail Service In Colorado… coming soon?  https://coloradonewsline.com/briefs/front-range-rail-development/Front Range Passenger Rail District will get a $500,000 planning grant as part of the federal Corridor ID program, which aims to help development of intercity passenger rail projects. The idea, Bose said, is to get projects into the pipeline for implementation, eventually connecting an entire corridor of cities to rail service.The Front Range Passenger Rail District, which was created through 2021 legislation, is planning a rail line that would connect cities between Fort Collins and Pueblo.“Colorado is very, very well positioned in the Corridor ID program,” Bose said, partly because the district has already defined the scope of its service development program and can move forward to the second step of the program. There are “tens of millions of dollars” for project planning now that the scope is set.The Colorado project is one of 70 that the Federal Railroad Administration selected to get money from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.“The fact that we have a federal administration that's committed to helping us dream up and execute a project like this is not an opportunity that we can take for granted. I think it shows us what kind of a moment we have,” Lew said.Polis is pushing a housing agenda that encourages development along transit corridors, and he is likely to champion related legislation next year. Though the state is years away from putting Front Range residents onto passenger rail cars, the agenda represents a goal for people to live near their primary mode of transportation and commute more easily without adding traffic congestion.“Coupled with bus rapid transit and transit oriented neighborhoods, passenger rail is a huge lynchpin in this vision we have for smarter growth, for improving affordability, livability and sustainability as Colorado grows,” Polis said.   @TheHeartlandPOD on Twitter and ThreadsCo-HostsAdam Sommer @Adam_Sommer85 (Twitter) @adam_sommer85 (Post)Rachel Parker @msraitchetp (Post) Sean Diller (no social)The Heartland Collective - Sign Up Today!JOIN PATREON FOR MORE - AND JOIN OUR SOCIAL NETWORK!“Change The Conversation”Outro Song: “The World Is On Fire” by American Aquarium http://www.americanaquarium.com/

This was certainly an episode with a difference - we begin in a Natural History Museum packed with 4,000 taxidermy animals! The Woodland Trust site and museum now share space once owned by the famous Rothschild family who collected stuffed species, as well as live exotic animals that roamed the park. We tour Tring Park's fascinating historic features, from the avenue named after visitor Charles II to the huge stone monument rumoured to be for his famous mistress. Beneath autumn-coloured boughs, we also learn how young lime trees grown from the centuries-old lime avenue will continue the site's history, how cows help manage important chalk grassland and the vital role of veteran trees and deadwood in the healthy ecosystem. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Today I'm heading off to Tring Park, one of Hertfordshire's most important ecological areas. It's filled, I'm told, with wildflowers and some really interesting historic features, as well as some stunning views. But first but first, I was told to stop off at the Natural History Museum at Tring, which is really a very, very short walk from the woodland itself. I was told to do that because they said it might surprise you what you find. It definitely did that. Because here are rows and rows of what I'm told are historically important stuffed animals. So I'm at the the top bit of the the galleries here at the Natural History Museum at Tring and well, bonkers I think is a probably good word to describe this place and I mean, I feel very mixed about it. So we're, I'm passing some very weird fish, that's a louvar, never heard of that. But there's a a rhinoceros, white rhinoceros, a Sumatran rhinoceros. There's a dromedary, a camel. There is a rather small giraffe. There is a head of a giraffe. Coming round over here, there is an Indian swordfish from the Indian Ocean. Goodness gracious, it looks like something from Harry Potter. That's an eel, very scary looking eel. And then there is a giant armadillo and it really properly is giant, an extinct relative of the living armadillos, known from the Pleistocene era and that's the period of the Ice Age, from North and South America, that is absolutely extraordinary. And there are some very, very weird things around here. Anyway, that's certainly not something you'd expect to see in Tring. Goodness knows what the locals made of it back in the Victorian ages, of course this would have been their only experience of these kind of animals. No Internet, no television, so this really was an amazing insight into the world, beyond Britain, beyond Tring. There is something here, a deep sea anglerfish which looks like it's got coral out of its chin. I mean, it's properly something from a horror movie that is, that is extraordinary. Claire: My name is Claire Walsh and I'm the exhibitions and interpretation manager here at the Natural History Museum at Tring, and my job involves looking after all of the exhibitions that you see on display and any temporary exhibitions such as Wildlife Photographer of the Year. Adam: So this is a rather unusual place. I have only just had a very brief look and I've never seen anything quite like it. So just explain to our listeners what it is that we're seeing, what what is this place? Claire: So the Natural History Museum at Tring is the brainchild of Lionel Walter Rothschild, who was a member of the Rothschild banking dynasty. Walter Rothschild, as as we call him, was gifted the museum by his parents as a 21st birthday present. Adam: That's quite a birthday, who gets a museum for their 21st? That's quite something. Claire: Yes, yeah, so, so the family were a hugely wealthy family and Walter's parents owned Tring Park Mansion, which is the the the the big house next door to the museum, which is now a performing arts school, the land of which was formerly a a big deer park, and the Woodland Trust land and our museum is all part of that sort of estate. Adam: And so this is a Natural History Museum. But as I was saying, it's not like when I've seen normally. So explain to me what it is that differentiates this from other museums people might be acquainted with. Claire: So we have over 4,000 taxidermied animals on display from all over the world, some of the finest examples of Victorian taxidermy in the world and you can see everything on display from dressed fleas all the way through to wallabies, large deers, birds from all over the world. It really is an absolutely amazing place. Adam: I've never heard of the species called dressed fleas. Is that a species or is it fleas which have got frocks on? Claire: So these are fleas that have little outfits on so our our particular dressed fleas have little sombreros. They're from Mexico dressed fleas. We're very fortunate to have them on display and they're they are some of the most popular things in the museum. Adam: *laughs* Extraordinary. Yeah, I'll go stop and have a look at those. Now, but there was, am I right in saying that that Walter Rothschild in the sort of posh manor, actually had weird animals rolling around, these aren't just stuffed animals, you know, live weird animals, unusual animals, just part of the park? Claire: Yeah, so to take you back a little bit, Walter Rothschild first became really interested in natural history when he was about 7 and and he then decided to set up the museum. So throughout his teenage years, he started collecting different animals, living and dead. And the park at Tring was home to a lot of the animals so in in the park were lots and lots of living animals that he he kind of just kept there roaming free, so he had things like rheas, cassowaries, ostriches, emus, kangaroos. Adam: I, I've seen a picture, I think I've seen a picture of him in a sort of horse drawn carriage, except it's drawn by zebras. Claire: Yeah, so so he decided to train zebras to draw his carriage. So he started off with one zebra and then sort of moved on to having three zebras and a and a pony and he actually took the carriage along Regent Street all the way through the mall in London to Buckingham Palace where where the zebras met the Queen, which was a bit sort of worrying for Rothschild because actually zebras are really difficult to train and quite flighty sort of animals so he's a bit worried about the Queen petting his zebras and and something going wrong, but fortunately it was all fine. The zebras did come out to Tring when they retired as well, so they were also sort of roaming about. I think what you need to imagine is Tring at the time was a really kind of provincial country town, there was a lot farming going on and the Rothschilds came with this, massive amounts of wealth, but they really embedded themselves within the local community and and did lots of, you know, really helped people out. But Walter then started introducing all these animals into the park. He was really interested in adaptation of of different species of animals, so he actually rented out the island of Alhambra in the Seychelles to protect the giant tortoises, but also in Tring you have all of these different exotic animals from all around the world and I can't imagine what it must have been like to just be an ordinary agricultural labourer living in Tring and having the opportunity to walk through the park and just se all these amazing animals that you wouldn't have had the opportunity to see because there's no television. Adam: It's a really interesting back story to it, but I wonder what you feel about the purpose of the museum and this collection now, when there's a sense I already feel a bit uncomfortable going, is this quite right to be watching stuffed animals, is this in keeping with our modern sensibilities? What's your view on that? Claire: So our mission really is to educate people about biodiversity and to to ensure that our future generations become advocates for the planet. So we do this by, you know, trying to instil the importance and the wonder and beauty of nature within our collections and tell people about the things that are vanishing. We have lots of extinct and endangered animals on display, which we highlight to our visitors and and you know, to try and get them to understand that they need to look after the natural world today, and obviously our collections are incredibly scientifically important. We have researchers come from all over the world to visit Tring and to study their collections and you know, really make a difference to to our planet in terms of understanding how populations of animals have increased or decreased through time. You know, sort of engage with people and educate people so they look after the planet going forwards. Adam: And explain to me a little bit about your relationship or the museum's relationship with the Woodland Trust, then. Claire: So we have a really good relationship with the Woodland Trust. We work hand in hand with them, we share our our sort of knowledge between both of our organisations and advocate for, for you know, the good work that we both do. Adam: I'm going to have a quick look around before we go off to the to the woodland itself. What's your favourite animal here? What's the favourite thing you think you'd direct me to? Claire: Oh my goodness, you've put me on the spot there. I mean, I really love all the animals in the museum. I think the thylacine is really worth going to have a look at. Adam: OK, thylacine, never heard of it. Claire: So the thylacine is an extinct animal. It's an example of something called convergent evolution, where it looks very much like a dog, but it's actually a marsupial. It lived in Australia. So that's upstairs in gallery 5. Adam: OK, that's where I'll be heading next. Thank you very much. Well, having finished my tour inside the museum, I'm off, it really is just across the road, to the woodland itself to meet my guide for the day. Grace: My name is Grace Davis, I'm an assistant site manager at the Woodland Trust, I help to manage our woods in Hertfordshire and Essex. Adam: So we're very lucky. It was raining when I left home. It is not raining, so I don't want to tempt fate but I do want to offer my thanks to whatever power that be. Where are we? Why are we here? Grace: We're at Tring Park in Hertfordshire. It's just next to the town of Tring. It's 130 hectares of grassland and woodland. It's famous for its chalk grassland and has been designated a SSSI. Adam: Right. And we were just walking down an avenue really weren't we and you were telling me they're lime trees because I couldn't spot it, but I did have a quick look on my app and just, maybe everyone else knows this, but apparently the nickname for Brits is the limeys, I think Australians call us limeys and it was because the lime trees were made, were used to make ships. And I think the Australians thought they weren't great wood for trees and sort of nicknamed us limeys. Anyway, there's a little bit of a side note. We passed some cows, rather docile cows. What what are they doing here? Grace: We've got a a number of cows that graze here most of the year, so they really help us to manage the scrub on the chalk grassland. If nature had its way, the the grassland here would eventually convert to be woodland, which isn't a bad thing but because of the SSSI designation of the chalk grassland here, and because it's a very rare habitat internationally, we really need to manage the scrub and any trees from from taking over, so the cattle are here to browse, to keep the the growth in check of the hawthorn, the blackthorn, the the scrubby species that really want to take over. Adam: And we passed, just a bit of practical information with people, we passed a little area where I saw a lot of tree planting going on, but also that's going to be a new car park is that right? Grace: That's right. So we've actually got Tring Park itself on a 400-year lease from the council after it was threatened in the nineties to be turned into a golf course, but we've also invested in this site by converting a patch of land to a car park for 50 spaces, and we hope that that car park will be open soon, very soon, and the one of the real benefits of it is it will provide a level access into the into the grassland, whereas at the moment people generally have to walk over the bridge across the very busy A41 but with the new car park, people will be able to park and walk straight into the grassland. So it will be great for anyone with a pushchair or mobility scooter. Adam: Fantastic. Now we're we're on a bit of a hill on this path going towards, past the cows on my right, going towards the trees themselves Right just before we head off there here's a Woodland Trust little bit of signage which I don't quite understand, it's a wooden post with a foot cut out of it. It is Walter's Wander. Walter moved into rooms at Magdalene College with a flock of kiwis, which were soon rehoused and cared for by a local taxidermist. Yeah, I'm not sure a taxidermist cares for animals much. I'm sure he cares, or she cares about her work, but I'm not sure that's the the verb of the job of a taxidermist. Anyway, yeah, so this is Walter's Wander, and it is Walter Rothschild. Grace: That's right yeah so this is this is showing a link between Tring Park and the museum of which Walter Rothschild is famous for having his his taxidermy there. Adam: I mean, he proper barmy. He, Magdalene College, he was a student at university and he brought with him a flock of kiwis. I mean, my kids went to university, they weren't allowed to have a kettle in their room, let alone a flock of kiwis. Better times, eh, let's bring those back! Right off we go. Let's go. This is this is, look, I'll get this wrong, is this hawthorn on the left? Grace: This is hawthorn, yes. Adam: Ohh top marks for Adam *laughs* Top marks for Adam, OK. Grace: We've got dog rose on the right, hawthorn again. Adam: Oh you see, you're you're showing off, just cause I got one right, you've gotta get more right than me. *both laugh* OK, off we go. Grace: So some of the plants that we have here growing on the chalk grassland have got fantastic names such as fairy flax, birdsfoot trefoil, lady's bedstraw, salad burnet and you know they've all got different colours, so white, yellows, purple. So if you visit here in spring or summer, there's just beautiful shades of colour all around the park. Adam: They're wildflowers are they? Grace: Yes, that's right and they're they they they they're specialist to chalk grassland. In fact, up to 40 species of chalk grassland plants can grow in one square metre, which is quite astonishing. Adam: I was taken by lady's bedstraw. Did ladies use it for their beds? Grace: I believe it was dried and used in mattresses. Adam: Blimey. Not just for ladies, gentlemen too, presumably. Grace: *laughs* Maybe Adam: Who knows, maybe it was only for ladies. Let's do some research. OK. So we're heading uphill as you can probably hear from my laboured breathing to a wooden gate up there and that that leads us into a more densely wooded area does it? Grace: Yes, that's right so that's the mature woodland up there. And we'll be we'll be leading on to the King Charles Ride, which is quite interesting for its connection with King Charles II. Adam: So what tell me whilst we're walking up, you can talk which will mean people can't hear me panting. Tell tell me about King Charles Ride. Grace: So Tring actually used to belong to King Charles II's wife. Catherine of Braganza, I think was her name. So King Charles is known to have visited the area and the avenue was named after him, and it's also heavily rumoured that his famous mistress Nell Gwynn came here with him on certain visits. She may well have lived in Tring during a typhus outbreak in London. There's also a monument here that is rumoured to be dedicated to her, which would make it the only public monument in the country to be dedicated to a royal mistress. Adam: Wow, good knowledge. Grace: I've got my notes *laughs* Adam: If only this comes up in Trivial Pursuit. I go where's the only monument to a royal mistress? And I'll get, I'll astound people at dinner parties. Good stuff. So we're taking a little break and I've turned around and actually it's it's beautiful looking back, we're up at the top of a a small valley we can see a road ahead of us that will be the A something, A41 says my expert and the sun is cutting through greyish clouds hitting the fields, green fields and the hills beyond the A41. And it looks really pretty. I mean, it's an interesting point, isn't it, that that people, the clue's in the name, the Woodland Trust, people feel it's about, get as many trees in the ground as possible. But it's not quite like that is it, because here in this particular patch you're doing what you can to prevent trees growing? Grace: That's right. I mean, scrub, scrub and woodland are obviously fantastic habitats for a range of species. But but chalk grassland really needs a low, low, low sward so a short height of the, Adam: Low sward, what's sward? Grace: Sward is the height of the the grass and the plants. So you can see it's quite low because the cattle are browsing it. So we need to keep that low. And the cattle will browse, they will eat like the young hawthorn and blackthorn and things coming through. They won't touch, really the the bigger, more established patches. But they'll keep the young stuff from coming through, and they'll reduce the competition of more dominant weeds like dandelion and things from from coming through. They they grow very fast and they will shade out and outcompete the slower growing rare chalk grassland species. Adam: And I mean, as we're sitting here and it's sort of mid-October-ish. We're starting to see the trees change colour aren't they, you can see in the lower bits they're not this uniform green. We've got reds and yellows and coppers just coming out. It is this time of change in the year, isn't it? Grace: That's right, yeah, it's quite beautiful, actually, at this time of year. Although we're saying we don't have the colours of the of the chalk grassland plants at the moment, but we do have the lovely changing colours of the trees. Yeah so this area here was enclosed about 300 years ago by by fencing, presumably, which which meant that a lot of the habitat was kept intact. It wasn't developed on and it's preserved the historic landscape as well of the area, and in fact it's, Tring Park is a Grade II historic parkland because of the ornamental park and garden features, which we'll we'll we'll see some of as we get to the top. Adam: Lovely. Have we rested enough? Grace: Yeah, let's push on. Adam: Push on. Grace: It will be muddy this next bit, but it's not for very long. Adam: OK. Ohh you can, you might be able to hear the sound effects of this getting very muddy. Grace: Yes, claggy. Adam: We've come into well, we're on a path, a little clearing and there is a mighty, mighty tree. But it's it's certainly dead. But it looks like something from a Harry Potter movie, The Witches or Macbeth, something like that. What's the story there? Grace: Well that's a tree perhaps it was struck by lightning, or it's just decayed you know, with old age. That's what we would call a veteran tree. So it's got wonderful cavity at the base there, it's got fungi growing on it. It's got the the top is all split off. It's open, open at the top for birds to nest in. You know, we we really do like to keep as much deadwood on a site as possible. It's just fantastic for invertebrates, bugs, beetles, fungi. There's about 2,000 invertebrate species that are reliant on dead or decaying woods, so you know, we're really working at the at the base of the ecosystem to get those small creatures into the woodland ecosystem for, you know, birds, mammals to to then eat and forming the wonderful woodland ecology that we that we need. Adam: So it it's not a good idea to clear away these things and make everything look neat. It's actually it's part of the ecosystem. There's it's funny cause you can't see anything that you know, there's no leaves on it or anything, but you're saying there's lots of animals actually dependent on that dead wood. Grace: That's right. Yeah. Really, it's really. That's right. If we had a closer look, we'd see all sorts of small bugs and beetles and crawly, creepy, crawly things. There may well be bats that roost in there, birds that nest in there, probably fungi around the base and at the cavities. Adam: Right. And that's supporting other animals who need to eat on that and and the soil itself obviously, which is increasingly a big issue, isn't it? Grace: That's right. Yeah, of course, well that, that, that tree will eventually decay into the soil and the soil health of woodland is really really important. Adam: Yeah, I mean, that's an increasingly big issue for people, isn't it? We don't we don't think about much about the soil, we look above the soil, but the soil health is a huge concern and and increasing issue for people to maintain, isn't it? Grace: That's right. I mean, the trees will come and go over hundreds of years but the soil will remain, and it's got those nutrients that have built up for hundreds and hundreds of years, especially in an ancient woodland, so it it's really the soil that is the most important thing in an ancient woodland. Adam: And remind me this is something I definitely should know but, is is there a definition of ancient woodland? Is there a cut off period? Grace: Yeah, it's trees that date back to the the 1600s, which is really when records began of mapping out the country and what the land uses were. Adam: Right, OK. And we're just going up, here are two or three felled trees. We've gotta turn right here have we? Grace: That's right yeah. Adam: They look like they've been cut down just left or no, they're very black. Is that fire or something? Grace: I think that's just water from the, from the rain, because that tree there is very dark isn't it. Adam: Right, oh yeah, that's dark. So we've come up to the top of the hill, or is there much, is there another hill? Grace: No, no, no, no more hills. Maybe just gently undulating, but no more hills. Adam: OK, right. So we're at the top of the hill. But I see a regal path ahead. I can imagine myself in my zebra drawn carriage riding down here, waving, if not at my people, then at my trees. So is this all in my imagination or is this is this the King Charles road? Grace: I'm not sure if the zebras made it up here, but this is known as the King Charles Ride, named after Charles II, we're also on the Ridgeway Trail, which is Britain's oldest road. Adam: Sorry, this this road I'm standing on now? Grace: That's right yeah, this, this, this stretch is part of an 87-mile national trail that stretches from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire. It would have been used by drovers, traders, soldiers for at least 5,000 years. Adam: Gosh, that's extraordinary. Grace: So if if if, if, if one is so inclined, you can walk from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire, or do it in reverse, taking in wonderful views, and you know, walking in vhy many hundreds of years of ancestors' footprints. Adam: Yeah. And and how many times have you done that walk then? Grace: *laughs* Zero. But I would like to do it one day. Adam: One day. OK. Well, you could do it in bits. I'll do I'll do the first kilometre with you. Grace: Lots of people do do it in bits. They park up, they walk a stretch and they get somebody to pick them up at the other end and take them back to their car. But actually I was I was on site here in the summer and I heard some like tinkling bells and looked up and it was two guys with huge backpacks and they were walking from the start of the Ridgeway Trail all the way to the Avebury standing stones in Wiltshire for the summer solstice. Adam: Blimey. How long would that, do you know how long that would have taken them? Grace: I don't know actually. Maybe a couple of weeks. Adam: Wow. And they had tinkling bells. I think you just sort of threw that in, which I think is that might get on my nerves with two weeks of walking with someone with a tinkling bell. Any idea why they were, were they just magical folk? Grace: They looked a little bit magical, but also I think it was day one so they might have ditched the tinkling bells after day one. Adam: Well, and actually we should, that's extraordinary, but I want to stop here because there's another felled tree and you were talking about the importance of actually decaying wood and even to the semi untrained eye like mine, we've got a tree trunk lying on its side and the roots of a tree still embedded covered in moss, but also fungi all over the place here. I mean, this is it's not a dead bit of wood at all really is it, it's hosting a huge amount of life. Grace: Yeah, it's absolutely living. Numerous fungi, species and bracket fungi here on the side. Smaller, smaller ones down there, you can see like the holes where beetles and different invertebrates are getting into the deadwood, what what, which is getting softer and softer over time. Ahhuge cavity over there, which could be used for all sorts of species. Adam: Looks like an elephant's foot at the bottom, doesn't it? Really does, amazing. Amazing that. Ah, OK. Back to the path. And we are, I mean, look, it's actually quite nice weather at a time of year where the weather isn't going to stay with us much and we are the only people. And I can see all the way down the King Charles Avenue and yes, just us, just us. All right, now we've had to stop because you got very excited about something you said ‘Stop!'. So why? Grace: That's right yeah so these are young lime trees that have originally come from the veteran lime trees we saw at the avenue at the start of our walk. So we've we've propagated, we've taken the seed from those veteran limes and we've grown them on into these young lime trees which we've planted up here because those those lime trees on the lime avenue they're not gonna live forever. They've hopefully got many hundreds of years left, but we want to continue their historic link to the site so this is seed from those very trees that we've planted up here on the King Charles Ride. Adam: And since, I mean, lime is obviously there's a lot of lime trees we've already been talking about that here. Just give me a as part of our online tree identity course, how do you spot a lime? Grace: So you you can tell a lime generally from the quite heart shape of its leaf, and they do also have quite quite unique looking seed pods as well. Adam: They've got little things on them. They flutter around to help them fly, like I always think of them as mini helicopters but anyway. OK, great. Grace: There's a word for those things I can't think what they're called. Adam: Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll call them mini helicopters and see if it catches on. Grace: Yeah, yeah, yeah *laughs* Adam: Yes, it's getting spookily dark under the canopy here, so these are clearly not lime trees. What sort of trees are these? Grace: We've got a lot of mature yew trees here which are causing quite a bit of shade at the moment across the ride. Adam: Yeah. So you showed you showed me how to spot a lime. How do you know these are yew trees? Grace: So yews have got these needle-like leaves a little bit like a Christmas tree sort of leaf. But but needles and they also have usually very sort of gnarly, flaky bark and red berries. Hopefully we'll see some, that would be quite fun, they're quite a quite an interesting shape. Adam: And yew trees are some of the oldest living trees, aren't they? Grace: They can live a very long time, yes. Adam: I thought, is it, I might be getting confused but I thought is it yew trees that often get planted in graveyards. Grace: Yeah, that's right. Yes. Adam: And I think, I mean, who knows? I think I've heard examples, you know in the thousand, 1,000 year old or or even more which is properly ancient. Grace: Yes. I believe they were there before the graveyards, Adam: Ohh I see it was the other way round. Grace: Yeah, that's what I've read because the yews were connected to Paganism and the, the, the, the, I believe the churchyards were built on these sort of sacred or spiritual sites where the trees were already in place. Adam: Right. Yes, must have something to do with rebirth or longevity of, you know, I'm I'm sure I've heard of a yew tree being 2,000 years old, so you're thinking, God you know, there's a yew tree from the age of Jesus Christ which really think, makes you ponder doesn't it, but that's I didn't realise you thought it was the other way around, I thought they planted yew trees in graveyards rather than they built graveyards around yew trees, but it makes more sense in some ways. So we're taking a little path to the left. I say little it's also rather grand, to be honest. But I know why I'm being taken down here cause at the end I can see a stone monument of some description. So I'll see what it is when I get there and you can hear the time of year, the leaves are falling, you might be able to hear that rustle. So this is an unexpected find, we come into another clearing and there is a huge stone monument. Grace, what on earth, what is this? Grace: This is the obelisk. It's a it's one of two Scheduled Ancient Monuments here, we'll see the other one shortly. It was built in in the early 18th century, so it's contemporary with the the the start of the parkland here. And probably designed by the architect James Gibbs. And it's said to be dedicated to Nell Gwynn. Adam: I mean, there's nothing on it, when you said you were taking me to see something dedicated to Nell Gwynn, you'd think they'd have a blooming statue of Nell Gwynn. It's, I mean, but it is huge and it's got a a round bauble at the top, I'm just going round it to see if there's any markings on the base, which there isn't. So maybe maybe this was a sort of you know, I'm going to publicly recognise you with this enormous monument, but because you're not the queen, I can't put your name on it. Amazing. Oh, my goodness, I'm turning around and there's another stunning thing at the end of this pathway, it's just full of surprises. So this looks like a Palladian villa at the end of this pathway, so is this also to Nell Gwyn but says nothing about her on it? Grace: No, I no, I don't think so. This is the summer house. The other Scheduled Ancient Monument here, again designed by the same architect. Well, we'll see when we get there, but it it looks certainly very impressive from the front, but we'll see more up close what lies behind. Adam: Ohh, you see, you're teasing me now *both laugh* Why she goes ohh what's, what does lie behind that villa? Alright. Let's go find out. You said go go at the back. There's something. It looks like it's very crowded at the back. Let's have a look. Ohh, there's nothing to it. There isn't a back. It's just a facade. Grace: That's right. The facade is all that remains now. Adam: There, there, there was more to it was there? Grace: There was more. It was it was an actual building, it was lived in by a gamekeeper and and his son in the 19th century. Adam: What a house for a gamekeeper. It's fit for a king. That's extraordinary. Grace: But it was demolished to make way for the Wiggington Road, which you might be able to hear in the background. Adam: Oh, how disappointing. Nonetheless a very nice pied-a-terre. Grace: It looks like an ancient temple from the front. Adam: It does. I just need a bit, you know, 4 foot at the back, I'll move in. Very nice. Now this has properly been a real treat, but modern life is intervening not only in the shape of the cars you might hear in background, but I have a Teams call with some TV producers I have to meet in about half an hour and they will be not and they will not be amused if I say I'm lost in a wood. So modern life as ever drags you back, what's the way home Grace? Grace: I'll I'll I'll walk you back, don't worry. Adam: Thank you, thank you, you're not going to just leave me to follow a trail of breadcrumbs back to the car. Well, that was quite a trip. If you want to visit Tring Park, it is on the A41, 30 miles North West of London and if you go to the Woodland Trust website, type in Tring Park, you'll find lots of other ways of getting there by bus, by train, on foot, by bicycle and even the What 3 Words location to use as well. And if you want to find a wood nearer you than Tring Park, well type into your search engine of choice Woodland Trust find a wood and you'll find one near you. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Sheltering from the rain under a yew tree in a Shrewsbury churchyard, we chat to 'Tree Pilgrim' Martin Hügi, the Trust's outreach manager in the South East. He's taken a four-month sabbatical to walk from Land's End to John O'Groats and visit thousands of incredible trees along the way. Hear Martin on awe-inspiring trees that have rendered him speechless, the vital Ancient Tree Inventory that helped plan the route, the value of ‘plugging in' to nature and what's in his kit bag! We also hear from Adele, who explains that old trees like those on Martin's pilgrimage are not protected or prioritised like our built heritage. Find out what you can do to help. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Today I am off to meet the Tree Pilgrim, which is the moniker of Martin Hugi, who is doing a proper marathon pilgrimage from Land's End to John O'Groats using the Woodland Trust's Ancient Tree Inventory, so you're gonna visit a huge number of ancient and veteran trees, something like 6,500 of them he's expecting along his walk and I caught up with him in Shrewsbury in Shropshire, which is just on the River Severn about 150 miles or thereabouts, north, north west of London, and I caught up with him at a rather rainy churchyard. This is very unusual because normally I join people on walks, but actually you've been walking for what, what day is it?  Martin: I'm on day... 79 today   Adam: You had to think about that!  Martin: I had to think about that.  Adam: Yeah. So this is so you've actually taken a break and you've come into Shrewsbury and we're, we're we are in a green space in a churchyard where, now we're we're here for a special reason. Why?  Martin: So last night I was giving a talk, talking about ancient trees and the the need for greater protection and just telling my story of what I've been up to.  Adam: Right, well, first of all tell me a bit about this pilgrimage you're going on.  Martin: Yeah. So I'm calling it an ancient tree pilgrimage and it is a walk from Land's End to John O'Groats and I spent 12 months planning meticulously a route between some of the most amazing trees that I could fit into a north-south route and working out the detail of how I wassgoing to get to those trees via other trees on the Ancient Tree Inventory.  Adam: So the Land's End to John O'Groats, which that walk, famous sort of trip which is called LEGO for short, is it?  Martin: LEJOG, or JOGLE if you go the other way.  Adam: LEJOG, right OK, LEJOG.  Martin: Land's End to John O'Groats.  Adam: OK. It's long if you do it straight, but you've gone, gone a sort of wiggly woggly way, haven't you? Because you're going actually via interesting trees. So how many miles is that gonna be?  Martin: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, it's if you're going to go a sort of more classic route, it would be something like 1,080 or 1,100 sort of miles. The route that I've planned is 2,077 miles.  Adam: Wow.  Martin: So it's double.  Adam: 2,077 mile walk.  Martin: Yeah, I had estimated doing 18 miles a day. That would be, that was my average. I'd sort of planned rough stops where I thought I might be able to get to. I'm more doing about 13 miles a day, which is not a lot less, but it's, I'm spending more time with the trees. And I, we also we lost our our dog on the day that I was setting off. We went down to Penzance to start and we took our our old family dog with us and he was very old and and elderly and he actually died on the morning that I was going to set off. So we just drove back home and didn't fancy starting again for another couple of weeks. So if you can be behind on a pilgrimage, I was already 2 weeks behind, but actually, I'm on a pilgrimage, so it's it's it's about the journey.   Adam: Would you say you're a religious person?  Martin: Not in the classic sense of an organised religion, but I, I do have a spiritual side to me for sure. Yeah.   Adam: And what difference then, you you talk about this tree pilgrimage and it not being about the distance, it's about the journey, which, you know, one often hears. What, if anything, have you learnt about your feelings for the natural world, or what you think it can offer you, or what you can offer it during this journey so far?  Martin: Yeah, I think I'm learning about my connection with nature and ancient trees and the sites that they sit in as being good places to access that connection. So one of the stories that I tell is about meeting the Majesty Oak in Fredville Park in Kent. And we went with a conservation trip with work and it's just such an incredible tree at it's 12.5 metre girth and a maiden oak. And it just goes straight up and it's just it's, it's, it's bulk, it's sheer dominance and size literally blew my mind to the point where I was speechless for a couple of minutes and I wasn't the only one, and because I think it it just it takes you out of the ordinary state of ‘this is what a tree is' and it put me into a state of, this is something different, and it was a a real feeling of awe and I get that from ancient trees, I sometimes I will feel awe and that's a a rare feeling in my life and potentially a lot of people's lives. And I think that's well, that's what I'm seeking, I suppose, but it's almost like a gateway feeling for other potential feelings that you can cultivate around nature and trees. Just things like respect and gratitude, and I've actually found myself thanking some of the trees because of, they're just full, so full of life and and they're persisting and the resilience and feeling actual gratitude that they persist and doing what they do.  Adam: And you must meet a lot of people on your walk. 70 odd days in so far, they must ask you what on Earth you're doing and must give you some sort of response. What, have people been surprised, shocked, do they think you're nuts? Do they go ‘can I join you'? What's been the response?  Martin: All of those things, I suppose. Yeah, I'll, I'll sort of tell them what I'm doing and and as soon as I get to Ancient Tree Inventory, I get a blank look.   Adam: OK. Well, you say lots of people don't know about this, let's talk about this. First of all, what is it, and then how do people get involved?  Martin: Yes. So it is a citizen science project, it's an open publicly accessible data set of ancient trees across the UK.  Adam: And so I could, I mean, for instance, today if we think we found this ancient tree, we would go on the register and go, here it is, we think it's a, you know, a an ancient oak or what whatever it is and we measure its girth, its its width at about do you do it about 3 metres high? Is that what you meant to do?  Martin: It's 1.5 metres.  Adam: So only twice wrong *laughs* there we are, well a good margin of error. Yeah, 3 metres is too high. No, I'm short as it is, overblown idea of how tall I am. So 1.5 metres high you sort of take a tape measure and you measure it and you say you you think you you know what it is, you give it a good go and there's lots of online apps you can help you. And you sort of make comments about the tree. You sort of say it's in this sort of condition, but you don't have to be an expert, it is just fine to give it give it a go.   Martin: Absolutely and and actually you don't need a tape measure, you can you can make an estimate and if you don't know what the tree is exactly or don't know what it is at all, you can still add it to the inventory and it will, it won't appear as a public facing record at that point, but it will show up to an ancient tree verifier, a volunteer ancient tree verifier. It will show up as an unverified tree and and I I am an ancient tree verifier, since 2008, and I'll be able to see that there's an unverified tree here and I can go along, I can say, well, it is an oak and I can measure it if I can measure it, if it's possible. And I can record other details about the tree like its veteran characteristics.  Adam: So already, I mean I don't get too bogged down into all of this, but I get notable trees like an event has happened under them, and there's lots of amazing trees where the Magna Carta was signed under one the Tolpuddle Martyr, the first ever union was created under a tree, so there's lots of historically important trees like that. But the the difference between veteran and ancient, is there a clear distinction between those?  Martin: No, in a way it's a subjective thing, but there is guidelines. There are, for different species, there are graphs saying if it's over this sort of girth you you would, it would be erring into an ancient tree. And and different species and different growth rates so there'll be different sizes. My, so a sort of colloquial definition is it's a tree that makes you go wow, would be an ancient tree and be that awe inspiring sort of feeling. But then also an ancient tree is one where you can see that it's been through multiple stages of growth, and what you'd say as a development phase for a tree, so an oak tree for example, you'd be able to see that it's it's, it's gone up and it's done it's mature oak, it's lost limbs and then it's shrunk back down again and then it's gone back up again and then it's come back down again and it's gone back up again and you can see that history in the shape and form of an ancient tree. So an ancient tree is a veteran tree. It's just that it's been a veteran multiple times and it's gone through them.  Adam: And presumably it's different for different species, because I mean, we're looking at a couple of yews, I mean, a yew tree can last 2,000 years. So what might be old for a yew tree is very different, might be old for a cherry tree, for instance. So you you can't apply the same rule for all trees, presumably.  Martin: You can apply that same thinking and principle to all trees that, has it been through multiple stages of life and development. Yew trees for sure are some of the oldest living trees. Something that's really stood out to me in Powys, in Wales and, is how they will put roots down into the inside of their decaying stems. Roots go down, they're called adventitious roots, and it's literally feeding off of the decaying body of itself and then those adventitious roots become stems, and I've seen this over and over, and again in some of the oldest yews that, the internal stems are adventitious roots and the outside of the tree is decayed and and hollow and and so in theory a yew tree is potentially immortal. You know, they just go on and on because you you can see some of these big stems that will have adventitious roots inside them, but that big stem might have been an adventitious route originally, so they're just incredible trees and and all trees will do that.  Adam: And so why is it important that this thing exists? I mean, why why make a register of ancient trees, apart from the fact you might want like quite like an excuse to go around the country listing them, which I I get that might be fun, but why is it important?  Martin: I think there are, there's there's several reasons, really. I mean, apart from, I mean a simple one would be cultural and social history and the heritage as part of our our common collective heritage. But then there's also from a some more sort of biological view, they are old genetics, they're old genes that have persisted, so they're adapted to their conditions, who knows how many offspring they've generated and the genetics that that tree came from, you know, going back into millennia, so I think they're an important reserve of genetic history. They're also nodes of undisturbed soils, so they obviously clearly have been there such a long time that the roots and the mycorrhizal associations under the ground and the complexity of life that is in that area, it's like a node of of life and of part of our landscape that hasn't changed and that is an incredibly important place, akin to ancient woodland soils.  Adam: And the whole the whole idea about ancient woodland itself is that you can't replace tree for tree, you can't knock down an ancient tree and and put in a new tree and it be as environmentally beneficial, so it's surely it's important because if we know about how to modify our landscape, if we're, whether where we should build new homes or or or anything, then actually it's important to know what we're disturbing, you can only do that if you know what's there.  Martin: Absolutely, yeah and I mean *church bells ring* sorry that's just distracted me *laughs*.  Adam: That's fine, distracted, distracted, slightly by the the ominous bells of the church in whose yard we are sitting in at the moment. So, you know, we're we're under a beech, you might hear the rain. We're cowering from sort of fairly light rain and in this churchyard and just listening to those those bells, anyway, they've they've gone, they've gone so.  Martin: It's where Charles Darwin was baptised.  Adam: In this church? Charles Darwin? Well, that, that raises a really interesting point, because also I know the local community were trying to protect an oak. And they called it the Charles Darwin Oak. You know, it's always good to have a name, isn't it? And they called it that because they think, well, you know, Charles Darwin could legitimately have played under this oak. It's old enough, and it's where he was baptised and everything. And it raises this issue, doesn't it, about people's connections to trees and local communities' connections to trees and it, I mean, I, from, as an outsider, it feels that that is becoming more a thing more a thing that people talk about, just regular people do feel it's important to have this connection.  Martin: I I think it's it's it really is yeah. I think people are now realising much more how the trees and the ecosystems around them actually provide us with the atmosphere and the our ability to live on this planet. It really is such a fundamental part of being human and survival to look after these green spaces that it's it's, you know, people are, people do realise that I think people do recognise that.  Adam: It it brings us on to the debate about the environment and protection. It was interesting, on the way here, I was reading an article by Jonathan Friedland, the great writer, who was talking about the ecological debate, saying they've said the the ecological sort of lobby group have the argument right, but they're using the wrong words and and he was saying that you know that that their argument isn't framed in the right way, but it feels like this is a super important moment, maybe a flex point, one doesn't want to overemphasise these things, sort of, but does feel that, I mean, right this week we are seeing heatwaves, I mean sort of properly dangerous heatwaves in southern Europe. Flooding, there was flooding on the motorway as I came here, so we have extremes of weather which feel very unusual for this sort of early summery type period. How worried are you about the environment and our ability to actually do something to protect it and our place in it?  Martin: I am confident that we have the know-how and the ability as humans to change our ways to a more sustainable way of living in harmony. I think that is changing. I think the economics has got to be part of this debate and the conversation, I I read a fantastic book in 2008 by Eric Beinhocker, The Origin of Wealth. I don't know if you've heard of this and looking at the environment as complex adaptive systems, but he was also saying how the economy is a complex adaptive system and evolution of economy, evolution is a, you you can't predict a thing what's going to happen sometimes and  Adam: No, I understand. And that's interesting to the, that the economy is itself an ecology and it adapts to the environment that it's facing. And I agree, I used to do a series for the BBC called Horizons when we travelled the world looking at technology. And I tend to the panicky, I have to say, and I thought this wouldn't be good for me when I'm looking at big challenges facing the world. And actually, I was really drawn to the fact that there are tech solutions to all sorts of issues, and it's often the money that's preventing, you go, ‘we can fix it, it's just not commercially viable'. No one wants to pay to do this at the moment, but if oil prices went through the roof, suddenly this alternative would be commercially viable. So it was, we talk a lot about technology, sometimes it is the economics of it which are preventing us from doing things and the economics change, don't they? So that that might be.  Martin: They do and it's something that is not predictable because there's so many moving components, there's so many interactions, there's so many feedback loops that, I mean, that's something that intrigues me about complex systems is that, the more complexity you have, the more feedback loops, the more agents that are interacting with each other in a system, the more resilient it is to change, but it can shift if if you if you get some events that are just too too much or you you degrade the amount of complexity then that system becomes less stable and that's the, that's the danger with, potentially what we're doing with trees and our environment, our, if you like a tree is an emergent property of the soil, it's it's an expression of of of what, of plant life and it's it started as algae coming out of warm freshwater, sea, freshwater in, 600 million years ago and and partnering with fungi to make, to have lichens. And then you get soil and then other things, other more complex plants evolve and then we've ended up with trees and they're like the, an emergent property of complex systems of the soil.  Adam: So we're talking about people's interaction with the environment. I should explain some of the symphony of sound we're hearing. So we we had the church bells, we had the rain above us. And I think there is a charity Race for Life with, thousands of people have emerged, in in a bit of green land we were going to actually walk through. And I think there's a sort of charity run going on, which is why you might hear, some big blaring music in the background, which is not as quiet a spot as we thought we might have ended up with, but does show the amenity value of these open green spaces. It's just rather a lot of people have chosen to use it on, on this particular day. One of the other things I just want to talk to you about as well while we're talking about this debate, and I know you talk on on behalf of yourself, not the Trust, and you're taking a sabbatical so these are your views, but given the debate we're all having, it feels to me that we talk a lot about armageddon. And I know from talking to people, you know, my family, they they sort of just disengage with after a while it just becomes background noise. And I wonder if you have an idea or an insight into how to talk about these issues to explain that they are potentially the difference between humans surviving and not surviving and yet not just sound like, some crazy guy screaming into the wind and also to stop people going ‘well, if that's the way it is then you know what am I gonna do I, I just better carry on because I can't do anything about it'. Is there a key that we're missing you feel, or an emphasis that we have wrong in engaging with this topic?  Martin: I don't know if I would say I have an answer to whether it's wrong or not, or the way we engage with it, but I think for me the the key is connection to nature and encouraging people and you've got to start young, I think, getting children through forest school perhaps, getting them out outside and experiencing nature because that's where nature connection comes from. And you don't need a, you don't need an ancient tree to to give you a sense of awe. I mean you I I can and ppeople can find awe in a tiny flower, but it's just a case of looking and spending time plugging in if you like.  Adam: You're right. I mean, I'm not sure I'd quite describe it as awe, but I often have in my car like a a little bit of a berry or an acorn and and you know, sometimes, it's going to sound weird now I'm describing it *laughs* but if I'm in a traffic jam or something and I look at those things and go actually, do you know what, if that was a piece of jewellery that was designed almost identical, we'd pay a lot of money for it and we'd go, ‘isn't that beautiful?' And you'd hang it around your neck in a way that you probably wouldn't hang an acorn around your neck or most people wouldn't. And yet you look at it and you go, it's quite extraordinary when you take time to look at these things a leaf or something, and I don't want to sound, you know, too Mother Earthy about it and people to, turn people off about that. But taking the time just to look, sometimes, you go, the wonder is in the detail. It is there actually it's quite fun and it's free.  Martin: Yeah and and I think when we when we go into a potentially, you know an undisturbed habitat like an ancient woodland where there is complexity and and you you immerse yourself in those areas, that's that's where you you you you can see, you can feel life.  Adam: Let me take you back to your walk, because, from which I have dragged you. A hundred odd days planned on the road, carrying all your own stuff. That means you have to find a place to sleep. Wash every now and then. I mean you you smell beautiful so I'm I'm assuming you've found some magic trick or you are washing and carrying clothes. What, just what is the trick for doing that? Because sometimes I go away for the weekend and I feel I'm already carrying far too much. How are you doing a hundred odd day walk carrying everything. What's the trick, what's your sort of kit list?  Martin: Yeah, I I did spend about two years actually building up different kits and trying different things to be as lightweight as possible. But that's in a way that, the whole having to find somewhere to camp, having to find water, these are basic simple things that take you away from all the other stuff that is going on you know, in my life sort of thing so I can actually immerse myself into the flow of of that journey.  Adam: So, but just because you, look, you're wearing a lightweight top, it's it's raining. No coat at the moment, I mean, but sort of how much clothes are you taking? And you know, yeah, how many, how, how many shirts? How many socks? How many pairs of pants? I've never asked this of another man before *laughs* How many pairs of pants do you have?   Martin: Right. Well, I can answer that *laughs* I have five pairs of pants, five pairs of socks, three pairs, three shirts, three T-shirts and just one top that I'm wearing now, a rainjacket and some waterproof trousers and some walking trousers and a pair of shorts. That is actually my clothing list. The the socks, the pants and the T-shirts are all merino wool essentially so they're very lightweight, they're very thin, very lightweight. Don't, merino wool or wool doesn't pick up smells and odours readily. The socks have got silver woven into them, so they're antifungal, antibacterial, and they're pretty amazing socks, actually. And they they dry as well. So the T-shirts are very thin merino wool T-shirts. I can wash them and they'll be dry in a few hours, especially with the hot weather that I was having in May and June.  Adam: Not, not the rain, nothing's gonna dry in this rain, although this tree is providing some amazing cover for us. So look, you've come into Shrewsbury to to to meet me to have a look at this ancient tree, which I I might leave you to measure yourself given the the increasing amount of rain that is pouring down on us. And I stupidly did not bring a coat because I just thought it was such nice weather when I left. Anyway, what is, when I leave you, where are you off to? Where is the next sort of part of this walk taking you?  Martin: Well, I am, will be taken back to my tent, which I've left at a campsite in, near Brecon and and then I am heading north to some yew trees and then to, up to Welshpool and Oswestry and then across into, towards in between Liverpool and Manchester and then north, Cumbria, Scotland. We'll see how, how, how far we get.  Adam: I know you thought the first bit of the trip you've you've not been on pace to actually complete it, but you never know, it, you might pick up, it might might get easier going.  Martin: I've actually slowed down and I thought I would speed up as I went along and as I got fitter and stronger I thought I would speed up but actually I've started to slow down and go at the pace, at a pace that my body wants to go at as well as the time and mental space that I wanted to to have from this trip. Yeah.  Adam: That's the difference in us. You're you're going to go off and measure a tree, and I'm going to find a coffee *laughs* some, somewhere dry. Look, best of luck, an amazing journey. Thank you very much. Thank you. And if you've been inspired by Martin's journey and want to help protect veteran and ancient trees but don't want to take a marathon walk the length of the country, there is still something you can do from the comfort of your armchair.  Adele: So, I'm Adele Benson, I'm a campaigner at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So what can people do to actually help?  Adele: We're running currently the Living Legends campaign to secure better legal protection for our oldest and most special trees. Because ultimately we are seeing some of our oldest trees with, you know, immense ecological wildlife and historic value being felled, or the value of them is not being fully appreciated in law. We've got a petition with almost 50,000 signatures and and we're trying to ultimately get to 100,000.  Adam: So if anyone is interested, they can search the Woodland Trust's Living Legends campaign on their computer and you can sign that online. Great, great stuff. I I think people might be surprised to learn that buildings often, or perhaps most of the time, get better legal protection than trees, even if the trees are older and actually more significant than the built structure next to it.  Adele: Yeah. So in Hampstead Heath, there's a, it's approximately 300 year old beech tree. And and it was planted next to a fence that had just been erected so think back 300 years ago. Now this fence has a Grade II listing on it, but the beech tree doesn't have any legal protection at all. So when they were found that the roots of the beech tree and the trunk was sort of impacting quite heavily on the fence, they were very, they wanted to essentially cut down this tree and remove it. However, that's not now happened luckily, but it's essentially having that equivalent of protection that is so desperately needed because we're valuing this this built heritage but we're not valuing this natural heritage that we have such a wealth of in the UK. The Woodland Trust celebrated its 50th anniversary last year and in that time, it's been working considerably to protect some of our oldest and most special trees and woodland, and ultimately I think it's now a time for action.  Adam: So let's just remind everyone that is the Living Legends campaign, which you can search for online if you want to sign that petition. And if you just want to find a woodland near you to walk in, just go to the Woodland Trust website, type in, find a wood that will come up with a whole range of places near you that you can visit. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Discover the fascinating ancient art of coppicing as we visit Priory Grove in Wales' Wye Valley, where the technique is still practised on a small scale to benefit both people and wildlife. We meet site manager Rob and contractor Joe to learn more about the coppicing carried out here, and how this interaction between people and nature has enabled the two to develop and evolve in tandem. Also in this episode, find out how an unfortunate end for ash trees resulted in a fantastic sea of wild garlic, the team's efforts to encourage dormice, bats, pine martens and other wildlife and which tree to identify by likening the trunk to elephants' feet!  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, today I am off to Priory Grove, which is next door really to the River Wye near Monmouth in Wales to meet the site manager Rob there who's gonna give me a bit of a tour. It's predominantly made up of ancient woodland and provides a wide range of habitats for wildlife. Things like roe, fallow deer, they're known to forage throughout the area, and a wide variety of bird species, including the tawny owl, sparrowhawk, and the great spotted woodpecker, which can all be seen on the wing here. All very exciting and I've just got to find it and find Rob.  Rob: Hello, I'm Rob Davies, site manager, South East Wales.  Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we are and why this is significant.  Rob: This is Priory Grove woodland. It's quite a large site on the outskirts of Monmouth, but nobody really knows what its history is. It's it's called Priory Grove, presumably because it was attached to one of the monastic estates round here. And that probably accounts for its survival as one of the one of the largest ancient woodlands next to Monmouth. And it did retain a lot of its coppice woodland, which is quite important for biodiversity.  Adam: Right. And what we're, I mean, we're standing by some felled, are these oak?  Rob: These are oak. Yes, oak, oak in length.  Adam: So why why have these been felled?  Rob: This is part of the coppice restoration programme, so coppicing on this site has been a management tool that's been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in this area and it's used to produce products like this, this oak that will go into timber framing and furniture and all those good things. And also, firewood is part of the underwood and the the the hazel and the the the understory coppice. So products for people and in the past it was used for all kinds of things before we had plastic. But it's still very useful, and so because it didn't cease until recently on this site, the animals and plants and the fauna that relies upon this method that have evolved with it essentially in the last 10,000 years or so since we've been managing woods in this way, still are present here on this site or in the local area. So if you continue the cycle you continue this interaction with the wildlife and you can help to reverse the biodiversity declines. So it's very holistic, really this management technique. But it does mean that to make space for the coppice regrowth, because trees don't grow under trees, you know it needs the light. The light needs to be there for the coppice to come up again. You have to take out some of these mature oaks that were planted 150, 200 years ago, with the intention of being used in the future. So we're planting things and we're carrying out the plans, we're bringing them to fruition, what people enacted a couple of hundred years ago.  Adam: It it's interesting, isn't it, because it it it is an ancient woodland, but that doesn't mean it's an untouched woodland, because for hundreds of years it's it's been managed. Man has had a hand in this and not only that, commerce has had a hand in that, so often I think we think of these things as a dichotomy. You have ancient woodland, nice, pristine sort of nature, and then you have sort of horrible invasive commerce. Actually, I think what's interesting about this site is that there isn't that dichotomy. They both work in tandem, is that fair?   Rob: That's right, it's a false dichotomy. So the reason these woods have survived is because they were used for people, and because of the way they're managed, coppicing and thinning is quite a sensitive technique, it allows space for nature to be present and to develop and evolve in tandem, so they're not mutually exclusive.  Adam: Yes. So tell me about coppicing is an important part of this site, tell me a little bit about what you're doing at the moment with that.  Rob: Yeah, so we've had a grant actually from the Wye Valley AONB from, supported by the Heritage Lottery Fund, to to do some coppicing work on stands that were coppiced about 20 years ago. So we're continuing that cycle. And we've been working with a company called Wye Coppice Community Interest Company, Wye Coppice CIC, and they're quite developed in, in the Wye Valley area. And we formed a good relationship with them and through them we've been able to do half a hectare of coppicing up on the other slope higher up in the site there. If you like we can go up and meet Joe?  Adam: That would be wonderful. Yeah. You you lead on I will follow. Well, you can hear from this I'm a bit out of breath, we've claimed, OK, I'll be embarrassed to say it's a hill, a small incline, but we've come across this stand of of felled trees. So just tell me a bit about what's going on here.  Rob: Exactly. So all these stumps you can see scattered throughout the stand. This is the coppice, so it's cut down to just above base ground level there now and it will just regrow. So it's kind of a natural defence strategy that we're just exploiting. So it's it's been used to, it's, you know, since it evolved things like hazel especially, it‘s used to being browsed off by animals, the animals move on and then the tree just comes back. So it's like a phoenix strategy it comes back, back up again. We're just exploiting that. So we'll cut the tree to base and then we'll protect the regrowth from the browsing animals and then the tree will come again.  Adam: Right, and this is the work done by Joe?  Rob: Yeah, this yeah so this is the work done by Joe Weaver. Joe's just down the end there actually if you want to come and meet him.  Adam: OK, let's go have it let's go meet him. Ohh I've got stuck. OK, so Joe, this is all your handiwork.  Joe: It is, yes.  Adam: Tell me a bit about what what it is you do then.  Joe: So I run Wye Coppice CIC, we're a coppice contracting company and working with Woodland Trust, Natural Resource Wales and Wildlife Trusts throughout the Wye Valley and we're embarking on a project to restore areas of the Wye Valley to restore, do a coppice restoration project for for various organisations throughout the Wye Valley. The what you see, what you see here is about 1 1/2 acres of cut down trees with 7 or 8 standards.  Adam: What are standards?  Joe: The standards are the trees that we've left behind, so, so they're the large, they're the larger trees.  Adam: Oh, I see right. So you wouldn't be coppicing, these are very well established big trees, you don't coppice trees like that, you coppice quite small trees, don't you?  Joe: Yes, so all the small diameter understory trees we've cut down to ground level and and they will, they will resprout and grow back again. We can then come back in 10 years and recut them and have a healthy supply of continue, a continual healthy supply of pole wood.  Adam: And yeah, so what you're trying to get with coppicing is sort of quite it's quite small diameter wood, is that correct?  Joe: Yes, generally speaking, so this is a restoration project you can see this first cut is fairly large diameter. And so most of this will go to make charcoal but generally speaking after 10, maybe 15 years of growth, we'll have poles about sort of thumb size and maybe up to about 50 pence diameter.  Adam: Right. And that's ideal size, is it?  Joe: And that's a really good size for products like bean poles, hedging stakes and binders that go on the top of naturally laid hedging and then various other pole wood applications.  Adam: And and when you see a coppiced tree, evidence that it's been coppiced, there's, I'm trying to look over there, is is this where you see lots of different branches actually coming out from the stump in the ground? That's evidence that's been coppiced, cause it not just one thing grows, lots of them?  Joe: That's right. So you can, if you have one birch tree standing up, for example, you can cut that down to the ground, and when you come back in a few months' time, you'll notice about 5 or 6 shoots coming from that one stump at the bottom of the ground. So if we can protect that from deer browsing and rabbit browsing, then those stems, those five or six shoots will grow up into individual stems that we can then use use in pole wood products.  Adam: It's odd, isn't it that that happens, though, that you chop down one sort of main stem and you get four or five coming back, that's sort of an  odd natural thing to happen, isn't it?  Joe: It is. I think it's the tree's response to the stress of being cut down. So it sort of puts out a lot of it puts a lot of energy into regrowing new growth to try to survive because essentially these broadleaf species, trees, they're they're forever growing, you can cut them down they'll regrow, cut them down again, they'll regrow again. So it's a constant cycle of of regrowth.  Adam: Yeah it's it's like sort of, you know, thumbing their nose at you isn't it, going well, you cut me down well I'm gonna come back fivefold. You know, that's it's a sort of really funny response.  Joe: Indeed. But we can reap the benefits of that.  Adam: Yeah no, no, it's, I get, I get why that's good. And coppicing itself, that, and that's an ancient art, isn't it?  Joe: It has, certainly here in the Wye Valley it was practised at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to produce charcoal to power the Industrial Revolution until coal was iintroduced and so it happened for hundreds and hundreds of years here.  Adam: Right. So you think, do you think I mean there's no need for you to be an historical expert on the history of coppicing, but do you think that's the first big sign of it happening, sort of Industrial Revolution time?  Joe: Certainly around here it is yeah, and there's some of the coupes that we've cut, some of the coppice areas that we've cut here, we've found evidence of charcoal hearths. So you can see flat areas with bits of charcoal sort of sliding down the bank.  Adam: So that would be ancient sites in here, well, ancient, I mean, a few 100 years old of them actually making charcoal in this woodland?  Joe: Yes, in this woodland, throughout the Wye Valley all the way throughout the Wye Valley here, yes.  Adam: Amazing. Now so your company, it's not just a traditional sort of private business, it is a a different sort of form. Just explain how that works.  Joe: So we run a community interest company and that allows us to access grant funding if we need to. Essentially, we're run as a private business, but we are able to do community outreach work as well and that's part of what we do is to try to educate people about sustainable woodland management.  Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this then? Did you grow up as a boy going I want to chop down trees to make fences.  Joe: No, I didn't. I was walking in the Dolomites, I saw two stoats fighting and thought woodland life is for me *laughs*.  Adam: Ok, well, fantastic, never heard that, so inspired by the the battle between two stoats and the and and the Dolomites. That's fantastic, but a hard life, I would have thought to run a business to, I mean it's physical work anyway, but that's my perception from the outside, is it hard work?  Joe: It it can be very difficult, it does have its benefits. Obviously it keeps you fit and it gets you outside but yes, it is a hard life and and you know it's it's quite a technical job as well and the training is expensive so we're trying to introduce a training programme as well through through our through our business Wye Coppice to try to get young people interested in woodland management.  Adam: And do you find that people sometimes don't understand or or perhaps disagree with the fact that commerce and nature can be actually mutually beneficial? Do you find that an issue at all?  Joe: Yes I do. Yes, and we're we're we're always willing to stop and talk to dog walkers especially. Shortly after COP26, we had two dog walkers come past and shout at us for chopping the trees down, after sitting down with them and having a cup of tea, they bought a bag of charcoal off us.  Adam: Right ok very good there we are. You're bringing them round one by one, one by one, those customers are coming over. Well brilliant and we've had not a bad day. I thought I might have to put my wet weather gear on, but it's been it's been OK. Anyway well, that's brilliant thank you very much. That's been really interesting.  Joe: Thank you.  Adam: So we've got this stand of trees we're looking at Rob. A couple couple of oak. Did you say that was a lime?   Rob: That's a lime yeah.   Adam: That's the lime, that that one with lots of ridges in it is that the lime?  Rob: That's it, yeah.  Adam: That's the lime. So why have you left these trees? Is there particular reasons you didn't take these ones out?  Rob: Yeah. So these as you can see, these are all mature trees and so you don't take these decisions lightly. So when we coppice this sort of half a football field area here, there were thirteen of these big mature trees, trees you can barely get your hands around as they're so large, taken a couple of hundred years to grow, so you've got to be quite careful and quite selective, although you need the light. There's an old adage about oak trees, it goes something like this that to fell an oak tree you need three things. You need a good eye, a sharp axe and a cold heart because these trees, you know they've been grown and nurtured and developed, and they're impressive life forms. And so it's not something you do without considering it very carefully so so you can see a couple of trees in here which are a couple of oaks, good size, but they're full of ivy, very dense ivy and that's very good for wintering bats. For hibernation, or for potentially summer roosting.  Adam: So the bats would live just amongst the Ivy, they'd sleep amongst the ivy?  Rob: Yeah when it gets as dense as this, when it's really all knotted, entwined, there's lots of gaps behind it. You could stick your hand in and find little cavities and several species of bat, especially pipistrelle, they they will hibernate over winter in this kind of growth. So you really don't want to be disturbing this.  Adam:  Right. And and what what's, is there something specific about lime that wildlife like is there any particular wildlife?  Rob: Well, it's good for bees. It's good good good pollen.  Adam: You get beehives in there? Oh I see, the pollen itself is good.  Rob: They like the flowers. Yeah yeah it produces lots of the small leaved lime it produces lots of good flowers and and it will attract aphids which is actually a food source for for dormice in the summer. So they they feed on the feed on the lime sap, you know if you park your car under a lime tree, you'll get this very sticky kind of substance coming off it.  Adam: Yes, yeah, yeah. Of course it does. Yes. Yeah, yeah.  Rob: So that attracts aphids, attracts the dormice, it's good for insects who like nectar as well. So it's a it's a very valuable tree and and you know  Adam: So interesting it's it's not valuable commercially, it's valuable for nature.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite it's quite a special tree in the in the Wye Valley, it doesn't occur much outside this area naturally, and it's kind of an ancient woodland indicator in this part of the world, perhaps not officially, but it's a.  Adam: OK. Any other trees we've got here?  Rob: Yeah. The rest of the trees, then are beech.  Adam: Right and you've kept those why?  Rob: Yeah, because you can see if you look at this one here, it's got quite a few cavities in it at the base at the top, beech tends to do that. It tends to take, form little cavities, rot holes and ways in, and that's ways in for fungus and then they eat out and hollow the tree. So the potential for harbouring bats again is very high in these trees. Without sort of going into them, doing some invasive exploration, you can't tell, but it's it's very high potential for bats. So again, bats, all species of bats in this country are protected under law because they've had massive declines like a lot of woodland species. And so we'll do everything we can to retain that habitat.  Adam: It's it's the Field of Dreams, philosophy. You you build it and they will come.  Rob: Yeah, yeah. This as long as it stays there, it'll always be valuable as habitat and so at least then, there are future sort of veteran trees within this stand.  Adam: It is interesting you you've already, I mean, we've only done a short part of this walk so far, but you talked about whoever was managing this woodland 100 years ago knew what they were talking about. And I think that's fascinating that we don't know who that person is or who who they, who those people were. And in 100 years time, people won't know who you were p.sumably, but the the evidence of your work will be here. They'll go yeah, that was a good bloke who did all this and left us with something.  Rob: That's it, you you don't plant trees for yourself, you plant trees for the future generation so you know, I won't see the oaks I plant develop. I'll be dead long before they mature and it's the same for the person who did this. But you can see the ones we took out, the ones I took out and selected were tall and straight. And that means that the coppice is well managed, because there was enough light for the hazel in the understory to come up straight away. If you cut hazel to the ground and you protect it, in a couple of years, it'll be way above six, eight foot and it'll just continue to get higher and higher over the next few years. And what that does is it shades the stem of the oak and it prevents side branching. So you get this very tall initial first stem. And that's what you're looking for. And that's what these trees had. So this would have clearly been cared for and these trees have been selected, they were on a journey from the moment they were planted.  Adam: OK. And just on my journey of education about trees, how do, what, they're beech, I wouldn't be able to spot that myself, what tells you they're beech?  Rob: It's a smooth trunk. If you look at this one here now you can see I always think of them as sort of elephant legs. They're grey and they're tall and they're smooth and they quite often have sort of knobbly bits on the base like an elephant's foot. And if you go through a stand of pure beech, it looks like it looks like a stand of elephants' feet, really tall, grey stems and these big huge buttress roots.  Adam: Fantastic. I am never going to forget that and I will always think of elephants when I look at a beech, a brilliant brilliant clue. Thank you. Right. So where we off to now?  Rob: We'll walk around so you can see the top of the coupe and just see the extent of it and and then we'll walk back down perhaps and have a look at this oak.   Adam: Brilliant. Well we've come to the, over the brow of the hill and along this path, there's a tiny little path for me to walk, and on either side there's a carpet of green. And I think I know what this carpet of green is. Rob, what is it tell me?  Rob: This is wild garlic.   Adam: Yeah. This is the time of year, is it?  Rob: Yep, you can see the flower heads. Ramsons it's also called, it's just about coming into flower now.  Adam: Sorry they're called what?  Rob: Ramson.  Adam: Ramson. Is that the flower itself is called ramson, or is that?  Rob: Well, just the plant.  Adam: We call it wild garlic but it's it's real name is ramson?  Rob: Well some people call it ramson too.  Adam: Right OK. And I never, I mean I have never picked and eaten anything from a forest because I am sure I will kill myself, but all of this, I mean, I've seen loads of people do that, pick wild garlic and it's, I mean there's there's acres of the stuff here.  Rob: It can it can yeah any kind of wild plant comes with the caveats that you need to know what you're doing.  Adam: Yes, which which I don't.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny yeah, this site is quite well known for its ramsons, for its wild garlic carpets. This this is in response to something here, quite a sad thing actually. We're right next, you can probably hear the road noise there, we're right next to the main road from Monmouth into the Forest of Dean, Staunton Road there, and unfortunately, a lot of the trees along the road edge were big, big, mature ash trees. And they all had dieback and they were all dropping limbs and about to crush a car. And so, you know, we take that very seriously in terms of health and safety so the trees just along the road edge, we left the ones in the wood, just the road edge trees we had to do something about them, so they've either been reduced or felled and what that's done in this woodland where in the last 60 years, you have had very little management, like most woods, post war, very little has happened. So it becomes very high, very closed canopy, very dense. And what's happened, because of the ash felling is, you've got this pocket of light here and the ramsons have immediately responded to that. So this wasn't here last year. This carpet like this.  Adam: What so this is this is brand new?  Rob: This is brand new. It was the odd plant coming up every year, patches of it.  Adam: I'm shocked because this looks like something from the Wizard, if this was yellow, this would be we'd be in the middle of the Wizard of Oz set here, the yellow brick road. It just I mean it it's just a beautiful, winding, lush, dense path of wild garlic. It looks like it's been here forever.  Rob: And in a sense it it was. It was just waiting for the opportunity, waiting for that temporary disturbance caused by the ash felling. And so like with the coppicing, that's what we're trying to recreate essentially, is these temporary pockets of disturbance where you you break up the canopy, you get this flush of greenery and then until the trees recover it and regrow again. So you don't want this homogeneous block of woodland really. You want, you want variation, because that's the key to success for, for wildlife and biodiversity, different niches, different ages. If you look closely, you can see it's not just the garlic either. You can see wood anemone, you can see greater wood vetch, you can see little violets. So, you know, quite quite a lot of species are now taking advantage of this temporary light that the ash felling's produced.  Adam: It is a nice positive message, isn't it? Because ash dieback has been a real tragedy. But even in the midst of problems there are opportunities which nature comes back with, it's an optimistic sign.  Rob: There is and so this as I say, you know these these trees would have coppiced without us because you know when animals browse them, they they they they come back after that so all we're doing is sort of recreating these natural processes through the management of the woodland. A once in a lifetime storm might have knocked these ash out or a hurricane, something like that, could have felled the whole area and then temporary open space, the plants capitalise and then the wood comes back again, so we're just just mimicking what nature does anyway.  Adam: I'm going to take a photo of this, put it on my Twitter feed. It's fantastic. So we've just taken a little stop on this path of wild garlic. So over to the right is well, I thought it was a bird box, it's a large bird box. You tell me it's actually something very specific.   Rob: Yeah, this is a pine marten nest box cause there was there has been a big release of pine marten. Pine martens are native to this country. It's kind of like a large weasel that lives in the trees. That's a really bad way of describing it, but it's a it's a mustelid. It's a large, impressive, intelligent animal and they were sort of pressed to persecute, to extinction, with persecution in the past. But they're very important in these woods for regulating, you know, the biodiversity, they, they prey on the grey squirrel especially, and they'll regulate bird numbers like any predator does. So it's it's great to see them coming back and it's a success story actually, because a couple of years ago now there was a release programme where captive animals were put into the Forest of Dean which is just over that direction. And so we put up some boxes and monitored them and pine martens are moving back into this area now. Whether they're using the boxes or not, we're not entirely sure, but they are moving in, so it's a, it's a really good story. So we'll do whatever we can to sort of encourage them because we've we've lost a lot of this old growth woodland that we're trying to protect and so they haven't got the nest cavities, so temporarily we'll provide this habitat.  Adam: And over the other side of the little dip, there's another pathway and it looks like the bank has been cut away and it's very black so that it doesn't look quite natural. What's going on there?  Rob: Well the the track that's been put in there is exposed, an earlier industry, so that's that's a charcoal platform. See what is it about five, five metres in diameter. Sort of sort of circular and very, very thick layer of charcoal. A huge fire has been there, but that's that's lots and lots of fires, one on top of the other.  Adam: So this is this is not current, this is probably a couple of hundred years old?  Rob: I think the last burn in this woodland would have been before the Second World War.  Adam: Oh right, so not that old.  Rob: Well, I mean, if they were still burning, they would have had the odd one, but this probably dates to sort of the the height of the the periods of the the late 19th century. So this here, it's been buried and forgotten about. But it shows you as Joe was saying earlier, at one point this was a managed wood and quite a few woods in Wales if you look on the maps you'll see things like coed poeth, which probably roughly translates as sort of hot wood or or burning woods, very roughly, probably, which gives you, may may give you an indication that these woods were worked and if you came here, you would have probably seen people living in the woods with the charcoal, tinner and charcoal workers, especially in the the 19th century, would have moved in in the summer to do the charcoal production with their families.  Adam: Just living in a tent or something?  Rob: Living in on site yeah, because then you know you don't want to move products, move things twice. You know, it's it's an economic, so you bring your family in, you produce your product, and then you come out with it at the end of the season so it's very peaceful here today. You can hear the birds. It's great for wildlife, but it would have been a managed landscape and we're trying to introduce a little bit of that. Obviously not people living in the woodlands anymore, but there's space for both here within this woodland, a bit a bit of coppicing a bit of management and reserve areas.  Adam: And I mean, I I hadn't quite noticed it while we were walking, but now we're we're standing here on this green carpet, there is an overpowering smell of garlic, it's quite extraordinary. It's very fresh, you know, sometimes when you're in the kitchen and the garlic it's it's, it's not fresh, it's pungent, but this is, you know, it's mixed with the sort of cool air, it's a really lovely smell.  Rob: It's making me hungry, actually.  Adam: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I was thinking whether I should pick some for dinner.  Rob: Chop some up. Pasta sauce. It's lovely with that.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely. And and there's another one amongst this wild garlic, it's clock, what was it?  Rob: Yeah, this one here, it's the town hall clock or moschatel as it's known.  Adam: Town hall clock that's it. So just, what's the what's its proper name?  Rob: Moschatel. Well, that, that's it's another acronym, ah pseudonym really it's moschatel.  Adam: Moschatel.  Rob: Or town hall clock. I forget the Latin actually, to my shame.  Adam: Is moschatel the Welsh word for it, or it's not  Rob: No, it's not. It's a general general word, just a colloquial local term.  Adam: And why is it called the town hall clock?  Rob: Look you can see these four, the flowers have four sides to them, like an old town hall clock would.  Adam: Right, lovely. It's really quite, quite a rich path we're wandering down.  Rob: You see the the bluebells are out look just now, if you look up into the wood there you can see them. In Welsh they're called clychau'r gog, which is the cuckoo bell.  Adam: Wow. Cuckoo bell.  Rob: Because it comes out when the cuckoo comes. Apparently, the grant paid for like a fence, contractors to fence off that, this boundary here, stop the deer coming in from the Dean. To stop the wild pigs actually, pigs are a  Adam: You get wild pigs here?  Rob: They're a nuisance round here, yeah.  Adam: Wild pigs?  Rob: They call them, they're not really boar, because a boar will produce like, I don't know, maybe a litter of six, and these pigs will do 22.   Adam: Right. Blimey. And how big are they?  Rob: They look like boar.  Adam: So and boar can be quite violent, can't they, quite aggressive.  Rob: Yeah, they're sort of half breed, half pig, half boar. They're big animals, got a cute little stripey piglets, just like a boar does. But they, you know, they're exponential in their reproduction, so they're  Adam: And and they're around this wood?  Rob: They're here.  Adam: So do they cause a problem with eating or do they nibble on the new trees and stuff?  Rob: Yeah, yeah, well, they sort of rootle, I mean you want boar, because they were here originally. You want boar, like the deer, you want them in sustainable numbers, they're all sleeping now.  Adam: Do they come out at night?  Rob: They only come out at night yeah.  Adam: I'll have to return.  Rob: Yeah. I mean you'd see them if you went up to the top path up there.  Adam: We haven't done a night podcast. I think we should do some bats and.  Rob: You can do bats, if you wait, while you're waiting for the badgers to come out, you can do the bats. There's a few sites around here where you can watch them.  Adam: OK, well maybe  Rob: I'm sure there's other Trust sites where people know.  Adam: Maybe I'll come back.  Rob: One summer when I was doing my bachelor's degree, I was working in Llanelli in like a, just a café just to get some money. I was working with the local girls there, I'd been out surfing in Llangennith on the Gower the day before and I was like just telling her how the seals came in because they chased the mackerel in just beyond the surf line and I was sitting there and the water just boiled with the stench of of fish and mackerel and I looked around and two seals popped up and they were driving the mackerel into the back of the waves to hunt them. I was telling her this and she was like, what, you're telling me there's seals in the water here, in Llanelli, where? I said just in the Gower. Seals? Like seals seals, like live in water? I said there's seals there, yeah, they've always been there, we just don't value what's around us.  Adam: We don't notice it.  Rob: We don't notice because you can't see it, you don't see it, yeah.  Adam: It's interesting, isn't it, Attenborough has done a series recently on the UK and you go, you don't have to go to Africa or Latin America to see these things.  Rob: There you go. I was in West Wales last week in Aberaeron, and you can see bottlenose dolphins. Increasingly under threat there's that number of point but yeah, but they're there. You can see the seals, you can see them all around us, yeah. This is doing well.  Adam: Well, I'm going to have to leave our little trip down the Wye Valley with some rather unexpected chat about seals and bottlenose dolphins and a promise to return one dark night to meet some bats. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Join us as presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble guides us through magical ancient woodland near her remote Wales home in the Wye Valley. With infectious enthusiasm and occasional impressions, she tells us about the plants and animals along our route as well as the story of her accidental career, becoming host of nation's favourite Springwatch having never wanted to be a TV presenter! Kate also talks worldwide travels, access to nature and planting trees with the Woodland Trust on her smallholding. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts we of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.   This is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault *laughs* So Kate sent me a pin, she said look this is going to be hard to find my place, she sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look I'm here I don't know if you can hear this you probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course there is no phone signal, so I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal. And I'm already late.   OK. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate and Kate *laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and told me to give up and she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house. But I really am nowhere near her house, so I seem to have broken Google which well, that's a first. Anyway I've got a banana here, so if she's a long time, I have dinner and I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen.   Well we've found Kate. We've found a whirly country drive lane. Feels a bit like rally driving. It's like, I mean, I don't understand why my map wouldn't find it, but this is certainly a bit of rally driving we're doing here getting to her house. My goodness. We found her house.   OK. Well, we're here. Which I never thought I I really thought it was really lovely. The idea was nice, and next time I'm in Wales, I'll give you a call so really, it's it's better than I thought better than I thought. Anyway, so you're leading me off with your two dogs.  Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful I think I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the lower Wye valley, so we are the the the the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid Wales, about 136 miles from here. I know that cause I've walked the whole route.  Adam: Really, we're not doing that today, are we?  Kate: No we're not no I promise. I promise Adam. So yes and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel and the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleaf, so we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?  Adam: You are lucky.  Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year. Which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift, because we are coming into spring, and if we actually just stop just for a second. You can hear that's a blue tit calling *imitates sound* and I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong was really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodland. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these words is *imitates sound* that's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker.  Adam: OK, I'm glad you. I I was guessing it might be a woodpecker, but I didn't want to.  Kate: So they start to drum around about sort of late January, they'll be drumming. And and then as the and we also have tawny owls, lots of tawny owls in these woods. We've got an owl box and we used to have an owl that we called Percy who we have no idea whether it was a boy or girl.  Adam: I was gonna say it was, a reason it was called Percy?  Kate: Don't know, just it just it looked like a Percy.  Adam: Just fancied the name. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.  Kate: But we have lovely tawny owls here. So, you know, at dusk and and when when I take the dogs out sort of last thing at night round about 10 o'clock 11:00 o'clock at night we walk down this track and and you stand here and you hear this wonderful and everyone thinks you know, tawny owls go toowit toowoo. They're the classic toowit toowoo owls, but actually you've got 2 owls calling, so you've got the male going *imitates noise* and then you have the females going *imitates noise*. And they're calling each other, establishing territories or going ooh I like the sound of you, there's a bit of flirting going on. So these are, as I say really it's it's just the biggest treat to live with this on my doorstep.  Adam: Right, so fantastic. You you clearly I mean, you've launched into a sort of fantastic description and detailed knowledge, but you are not a country girl by birth are you?  Kate: No, I am a country girl by birth.   Adam: Oh you are? I though you were born in London?  Kate: I am. No. Well, I was you're right, I was I was  Adam: Sorry, do I know where you were born and you don't.  Kate: Well, being born and where you were brought up is different.   Adam: Yeah, OK. OK, fair enough.  Kate: So I was, you're absolutely right, I was born in London. I was born in well, I was born in Wimbledon in fact. This is my neighbour by the way.  Adam: Right. Right. Wow. I didn't, we're in the middle of nowhere I didn't know there'd be a neighbour.  Kate: I know, but I know. But there are other people mad enough to live in these woods, and he's particularly mad.  Adam: OK. Does he mind you saying that?   Kate: Not at all. Not at all. No. He's absolutely used to it. Hello. Come and say hello to the Woodland Trust podcast.   Adam: No. OK, I'm just checking. OK. Hi, I'm Adam. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah, I hear you're her neighbour.  Kate: This is this is this is writer Mark Mccrum and his dog Jabba. Yes. So I'm just dragging Adam down to take a look at the ponds and talking about the ponds down there.  Mark: Oh lovely. Which ponds?  Kate: The ponds down there.  Mark: Oh those ones? Yeah, very good. I might see you on the reverse cause I'm gonna go all the way round.  Kate: Oh you're gonna go round. OK, fine. Lovely.  Mark: These are lovely woods cause you never see anybody here. *all laugh*  Adam: I'm sorry.  Kate: Apart from you   Adam: I was gonna say, and me, I've ruined it.  Kate: Yeah we're the only people who see each other aren't we.  Adam: So you were telling me you are you are born in Wimbledon, but you you grew up in the country then?   Kate: Yeah. So I was I was born in Wimbledon and yes. So after about, I think I was about six months old, my mother always says that she realised that London was clearly not the place for me and   Adam: From six months? Outward bound baby were you?  Kate: Yes! She said she said there basically wasn't enough space in London for me. So so yes, so I was brought up in Berkshire, right? And I was brought up next to a farm. So I was always a sort of vicariously farming kid. Even though my parents weren't farmers and and spent my childhood looking after various animals of various descriptions, and I think the wonderful thing about being the age I am, so everyone bemoans being old, but I think I just I I am so thankful that I was born in the sixties.  Adam: Why?  Kate: Because no one had invented health and safety, climbing trees, no one had climbing frames, you climbed trees. And I think the trees enjoyed it, and so did you. And if you hadn't fallen out of quite a lot of trees by the time you were 10 and had various, you know, scars or broken bits as proof of a proper childhood, it wasn't a proper childhood.   Adam: Right. OK.   Kate: So I had a lovely proper childhood of, you know, not being plonked in front of a screen of some description or another. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.  Adam: OK, I'm is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes and?  Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might yes, you might. It's quite a steep descent.  Adam: OK just as long as my, my face is my fortune though, as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. Lots of leaves around. Yeah.  Kate: Of course it will be a soft landing whatever you say. Lots of leaves. One of the nice things again about broadleaf woodland. And as you can see, I'm sure your leaf identification is brilliant, but we've got a lovely mix of oak here and beech, as well as the evergreen so the hollies and lovely, lovely mosses. But yes, what you're walking on is is a sort of glorious mulchy carpet, but we have a profusion of bluebells.  Adam: Already they've come up?  Kate: Well the bluebells, the the plants themselves have come up so the leaves are up and there are one or two I'm going to show you, is it, will it be your first bluebell of the year?  Adam: It, almost, almost we we can pretend it is for dramatic purposes. Let's let's go along.  Kate: OK, OK. They are, they're just, they're just starting to come here now and and you get that lovely moment. It'll be about probably about three weeks or a month's time, slightly depending on on what the weather does, where you get the, the unfurling of the beech trees. So that glorious kind of neon green which when the light goes through you get that sort of wonderful, almost disco light effect show.  Adam: And aren't they in Welsh, aren't they called cuckoos? The Welsh translation for bluebells is cuckoo clock. I think it's because it's like it's a harbinger of spring along with the cuckoo.  Kate: Oh, I didn't know that.  Adam: Oh my God, I found something you didn't know.  Kate: You know, you know, you'll know lots, I don't know, but  Adam: No, no, let's hope that's true that's that's I'll have to go check that. Do check that before you tell anybody.   Kate: Well, I'll just blame you.  Adam: But no, I do think in Welsh the translation for Bluebell is is cuckoo clock or something like that because it is this harbinger of spring and I think that's it's a really nice I I won't even try the Welsh but in Welsh it sounds very so I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This is this has been a constant in your life?   Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.  Adam: Except, I mean, you didn't choose a a nature career, did you? I mean, you you're involved now we can talk about that. But first, what was your first career?  Kate: Well, I mean. Career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.  Adam: Yeah. OK, so your accidental career.  Kate: So my accidental career, well, I had this idea that that I that I wanted to work in television, although again I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a a safari guide.  Adam: Good. I can see the appeal of that.  Kate: I went to I when I was 19 having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course. So I went to Africa when I was 19 and.  Adam: Sorry we're not talking on a holiday?  Kate: No it was a well it was a it was probably a rebellion.   Adam: Right. You went as far away as your your parents as you could. I'm not going out for the evening I'm popping off to Africa?  Kate: Yes, yes. I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.  Adam: Right. Yeah, good. Good exit line. So where, where, where in Africa were you and what were you doing there?  Kate: So I I started in South Africa. I ended up in Egypt.  Adam: Right, just bumming around doing sort of bar work or doing something more serious?  Kate: I did I did I was a waitress for a little bit, but I was very, very bad and was sacked. I I was a model for a little bit, also very bad, very bad at that too.   Adam: Why were you so bad at that?   Kate: Because because I really don't like having my photograph taken and I really like food.  Adam: Yes, OK well I would I would have guessed I could have advised you that wasn't the career for you.  Kate: So so the two things, yeah, didn't really weren't terribly compatible to that. But I then got a job as a cook and a driver on a safari, and I drove a truck aged 19, having never really been out of Berkshire, from Cape Town, through Botswana and into Zimbabwe. And and then I hitched back to Cape Town. So I had a a real adventure. But what I what it really did for me was, having had this very sort of unconsciously wild childhood, I don't mean you know lots of parties and taking drugs I mean, a natural wild childhood, I then went to a place where the natural world was was so extraordinary and so mindblowing, and on a scale, you know, everything was was was like technicolour. You know, the birds were amazing. The the you know the the the size of the animals, the proliferation of the wildlife, the size of the landscapes, the emptiness and I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think it's, you know, it's extraordinary, it's it's mind blowing in every way and so even though I then came back and thought I want to have this sort of career in telly what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.  Adam: Right. And is that what you did?  Kate: No. Not initially anyway.  Adam: OK, but you have done, I mean you've done nature programmes, lots of nature programmes. What did you first start doing?  Kate: We're going down here. I have. So I first started sweeping streets in the East End.  Adam: In EastEnders?  Kate: No, in the East End, no. I was a runner so I basically got jobs wherever I could get jobs and I got a job on a commercial that happened to be shooting in the East End and they needed the streets swept and so that was one of my jobs. But had no plans to be on the telly that that really did happen by mistake.  Adam: I think you know my first job in telly. I don't know if you remember That's Life with Esther Rantzen. Do you remember they she always had rude, funny vegetables?   Kate: I do, yes  Adam: That was my job to find them, yeah so only only marginally above the street sweeping.   Kate: Oh my goodness!  Adam: So you got how did you get picked there? I mean, we gotta get back to the natural world. But you've had such such a fantastic life. So I mean, I think people will be fascinated to know you have not much of even a vague plan about what you're doing. You're fumbling about a bit.  Kate: None, yeah. Living in a squat. Eating crisps.  Adam: So yeah, right. So not many models will be will be living like that and eating crisps, I get that You're sweeping streets as your way into telly, all of a sudden you're on telly. How did that happen, was that more of a plan or did someone just turn around and go, hey, you, street sweeper, you'll do?  Kate: No, it wasn't. So I had I had graduated from street sweeper, so it took about probably four four or five years I have become by now a sort of senior researcher. And I got a job at the BBC. My first job at the BBC on a programme called Animal Hospital.  Adam: Right. Yes. And you were still a researcher there or presenter?  Kate: Yeah, as a researcher. And and I think the reason that I got the job was actually my childhood. Because I think it was the first series, in fact, I think the only series that they did of Animal Hospital in a rural practice. So we went to a practice that didn't just do small animals, pets type animals, but also bigger animals like farm animals and horses and I think the only reason I got the job was that I was the only person they interviewed who knew what to do with something bigger than a hamster.   Adam: Right ok great.  Kate: And I had my own wellies.  Adam: Oh good. Always important for a career in telly, your own wellies, see these are the secrets people wanna know. Good. So you've got your wellies?   Kate: Always really, really important. They are. So I got that job I got that researcher job. And at the end of it, the BBC do this appraisal thing. And they said we thought you were alright, you did OK, will you come back and do the next series and I said I'd absolutely love to. I'd really loved it, absolutely loved it. Can we just pause here a minute because this,  Adam: A sea of wild garlic?  Kate: No, these are bluebells.  Adam: These are bluebells? Oh, sorry. Look at the ignorance here.  Kate: These are bluebells. Well, those white flowers let me show you these because they're beautiful.  Adam: I thought like I I think that's what I thought was wild garlic shows you *unintelligible* OK, we've got a proper safari expert.  Kate: No. So look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, first bluebell starting to unfurl except my dog's just walked all over it. Come on you're not supposed to walk on there.  Adam: So this is, all of this is bluebells?  Kate: So all of this will be bluebells and in about 3 weeks time you get this absolutely, it's so blue it's like the colour actually detaches itself from the flowers and floats above it in this sort of glorious mist, it's beautiful. But this these flowers here I love. And these are these are one of the flowers along with celandines which are the kind of waxy yellow flowers that people will see in woodlands and even in their gardens at this time of year, these are wood anemones. And they are lovely, very delicate white flowers with these slightly sort of hand-like leaves and the lovely thing about these, they're not looking at their best at the moment because it's been quite a wet day. But when the sun's out, they open to the sun like these brilliant white stars. And sometimes there are areas around here where you'll see carpets of wood anemones and they're one of the first I've seen these as early as January, although not this year because we had lots of frosts.  Adam: It's funny you, you, you, you use the word magical I'm just looking at this tree with covered in moss and everything, there is something magical about these sorts of places, a sort of sense of, sense of, a Tolkien type moment isnt there?.  Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I I don't think it is a coincidence that lots of fairytales are set in woodlands because there is something otherworldly about them. We're going to head keep heading down just so that you have a really good climb on the way up.  Adam: Yeah, I was gonna say I'm fine going down, I'm assuming you're sending a car to pick me up? It's well a little, a little Uber will just I'm sure,   Kate: Nice try, Adam! Lots of Ubers around here. Look, look, look.   Adam: Oh look now that is OK that's a proper bluebell.  Kate: That is a, a, a bluebell that's a proper bluebell.  Adam: Yeah, that is my first proper bluebell of the year.  Kate: And you can see all the others are just starting to come.  Adam: And that's and it is lovely because clearly so few people come here that's the problem often with bluebells is when people trample all over them. And we've got just one clean path down here and it's completely undisturbed for as far as the eye can see. So yes, we OK, we we did a little pit stop for bluebells. We're back on and the what was the programme, animal?  Kate: Animal Animal Hospital.  Adam: Animal Hospital. So they wanted you back as a researcher. I'm interested in the jump from behind the screen to on screen.  Kate: So so they basically said lovely we'll see you in four months and I said oh well, I've got a landlord and rent to pay, I can't not work for four months. I'm going to have to get another job and it may mean that I'm not available. And they said ohh well, maybe we can find you something else within the BBC as a stopgap. And I had also at that point, so this is the mid 90s now, started writing. I was writing travel. And I'd spent at the the a end of a a, the second Africa trip that I did between 94 and 95, I'd spent the last two months of that in Madagascar.  Adam: Right.  Kate: Madagascar was a place that I was obsessed with because of its wildlife because it has unique flora and fauna. I came back and got an article commissioned to write about it, and it was the first,  Adam: Your first commission?  Kate: Yes, my first commission and my first article, and it was in a broad a broadsheet newspaper, and I was very excited and very proud about that. And so when I was asked by the series producer of the BBC Holiday programme, whether I would consider coming to work for them because I was a travel writer,  Adam: Right OK, yeah, you're now a travel writer because of your one article.  Kate: I am I am now a I am now a travel writer on the strength of one of one article.  Adam: Whoa oh Kate, I'm so glad you were the first person to sort of go over *Kate laughs* That was before me I just want that on record.   Kate: Yeah.   Adam: OK so I haven't gone over yet.   Kate: You haven't got over yet.   Adam: OK. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.  Kate: Yes. So I got a job on the BBC Holiday programme. Anyway the next day I got called into the big boss's office. And I assumed that my short lived career at the BBC Holiday programme was about to be ended because I wasn't quite sure why, but perhaps because I hadn't been taking the producers guidelines as seriously as I might and that also I had smoked on a fire escape, which probably wasn't a good idea. And instead I was asked to do a screen test and I assumed that this was the sort of common test that the Holiday programme did and I tried to say I really don't want to be a presenter thank you, I love doing, I love making the programmes, I love the research, I love talking to people, I love putting things together. I'm quite, I like logistics. I'm quite, you know, I like all that stuff I don't want to be a presenter. And they went well do a do a screen test. So at this point I just thought I've just got to get out of this office because I feel very embarrassed by the whole situation. So I will just nod smile say yes, do it, it'll be a disaster, and then everything can go back to normal. So that's what I did. Three weeks later, the boss came into the office,  Adam: Sorry, we have to stop. This is a story that's gonna last all day, cause I keep stopping because your dog is posing or it was posing beautifully by this river.  Kate: Well, so this river is an important, one of the sort of parallel streams that run into the River Wye for this is the Angidy, we are in the Angidy Valley, surrounded by amazing woodland on both sides, it's a very steep sided valley. This river is particularly good for dippers, which are those lovely chocolate brown and white birds, they look like little waiters.  Adam: Right *laughs*  Kate: And they and they, they're called dippers because that's exactly what they do. So we'll keep an eye out because we might see some, but they'll sit on a stone like that exposed stone within the waterfall there and they will jump into the water and literally completely submerge. They'll disappear completely and they're looking for things like caddisfly larva, which is what they feed on, and then they'll bob up and come back up and they're they're just these wonderful, perky, very smart little birds.  Adam: Brilliant, OK.  Kate: They're the only British songbird that is also a water bird.  Adam: Wow, OK, good. All right.   Kate: There you are, little bit of, little bit of,  Adam: No, I like these these these sorts of diversions we take, it's it's almost like doing a stand up routine, so we're gonna go gonna go back to the story now. So you thought everybody in the world gets a screen test. So I'm just doing this and then they'll leave me alone.  Kate: Yes, yes. And and then the boss came into the office about 3 weeks later. And she said, can you go to France tomorrow? And I said yes, of course, assuming that they needed somebody to carry the heavy stuff. Bhcause carrying heavy stuff is the other thing that I am good at. I can whistle very loudly and I can carry very heavy things and those are really the only two things that I can offer the world.  Adam: OK, I I you, you have set yourself up for a big whistle at the end, so we'll we'll wait for that then let's hold out.  Kate: It it will blow your ears well, that's all I'm saying. So she said, we want you to present a film on a barge in Normandy, could you please do something about my hair, she said. My own hair.  Adam: I see she didn't ask you to be a hairdresser? Also could you cut my hair?  Kate: Yes could you cut my hair *laughs*. No, could you do something about your hair, she said. I thought she's been talking to my mum, who constantly despairs of my lack of my lack of grooming.  Adam: Right, also right at this point of hair hair disasters, we have to pause because we've come across as you may hear an extraordinary small waterfall, it's a weir, really, isn't it?   Kate: It is really.  Adam: I'm gonna take another photo of this before we get back to the life and misadventures of Kate Humble. So I'm just gonna take a photo. You'll find that, no doubt on one of our Twitter feeds. Oh, I know beautiful, oh no the dogs disappeared, the dog doesn't like posing for me. But all right, so now, you're off to France. You need a haircut and,  Kate: So I'm off to France. I need I need I need to basically smarten myself up. Off I went to France and presented my first film.  Adam: Right. And that was, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but that was the beginning of that was the beginning of this, the story. OK, well, amazing.  Kate: Yes. My first job for the natural history unit came in 2000. And I was asked to do a programme, which was a sort of, was made in response to Blue Planet. So the very first series of the Blue Planet, which I think everybody watched with their mouths open because we had never seen the oceans in that way before, particularly the deep ocean. And there was a phrase used which I have used many, many times since, which was that more people have been to the moon than there have been to the deep ocean. And people were fascinated by these, they were they were creatures that looked like they might have been designed for Star Wars. They were so extraordinary.  Adam: These sort of angler fish which have which have this light don't they.  Kate: That sort of thing, and these these, you know, these astonishing, you know, plankton with flashing lights, there were Dumbo octopus with, you know, little octopus with these sort of literally did look like Dumbo the elephant, you know, deep water sharks that people had never seen before that were really slow moving and and, you know astonishingly well-adapted to live at depths and in in at water pressure that no one thought anything could exist in and come on dogs we're gonna keep, do you wanna have a,  Adam: And so yours was a response, in what way?   Kate: So we did a live,  Adam: The dogs keep looking at me like they want me to throw something for them is that what's going on?  Kate: They do, and I'm going to just try and find a, here let's try let's try this, here we are.  Adam: Look, they're very, oh you've thrown it into the river?   Kate: Go on, in you go.  Adam: Oh, look at that go!  Kate: Come on Teg, do you wanna go in as well? Here you are. This one's going to sink, go on. Ready? Go. Good girl. Where's it gone? Teggy, it's just there. That's it. Well done, well done, dogs.  Adam: Oh they like that.  Kate: Well, I can't go and get it, you have to bring it here, that's the deal with sticks *laughs* So we did a live programme from a boat in Monterey Bay. I made some films to play into that live show. So I went to the Cayman Islands, which is a rotten thing to ask anybody to do, can you imagine?  Adam: Terrible, terrible. You wanted to be back in the East End really.  Kate: I did really, sweeping streets and instead there I was, doing films about coral reefs and this is the one of, this is the wonderful thing about the natural history unit or just about making films with animals is the lengths that you have to go to to be able to capture the natural world in all its wonder. And so I was asked to go and film a shark called a six gill shark that lives very deep and only about 10 people in the world had ever seen. And I was sent to go and find this creature. You know, I can't I can't even now I can't really believe that I was asked to do that.   Adam: And did you find it?  Kate: Eventually. We had to do two, we did one trip we failed to find it,   Adam: How how long was that?  Kate: So that was, we did 6 dives. It was an amazing trip. We didn't get the shark on the first trip. We went back for another trip. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. We finally got it and it was incredible. Incredible moment. And that was the first job that I did for the natural history unit and there was then somebody who came up with the idea of doing British wildlife life live at kind of springtime, like kind of now.   Adam: And this was Springwatch was it?  Kate: This was the precursor to Springwatch.   Adam: Oh I didn't know there was one.  Kate: There were two!  Adam: What were they called?  Kate: So the first one was called Wild In Your Garden. So I'm just going to put the dogs on a lead here. Hold on, poppet. Just hold on my poppet. That's it. We've got to take Adam up the hill now. So yes, so the first one was called Wild In Your Garden and it was Bill Oddie and Simon King and me. And we did two shows a night, from gardens in Bristol, and it sort of worked as an idea.  Adam: Right. OK.  Kate: It worked well enough or it wasn't so much of a disaster that there wasn't a thought of let's try it slightly differently, maybe on a farm instead of in the garden, and we went to this wonderful organic farm in Devon and basically made camp for three weeks. And made a series called Britain Goes Wild. And Britain went a tiny bit wild. And so the following year we thought, well, we'll do it again, but maybe we'll just call it something different.  Adam: Right.  Kate: And someone came up with the idea of calling it spring watch and everyone said, and it always went out at the same time as it does now, sort of end of May and people go, it's not really spring though is it? And we're like, well spring enough, still spring things happening and Springwatch seemed to capture everybody's imaginations and and I presented that for 10 years.  Adam: And you presented that for how many, how many years?  Kate: Ten.  Adam: Blimey! That's a long,  Kate: Yeah, I know. I've just grown old on telly and then Autumnwatch came into being and then Winterwatch and I did Seawatch. So I did a series about British Britain's seas and and marine life. Yeah. So I did eventually get my wish of working for the natural history unit.  Adam: Oh, that's very good. The fairy godmother in the form of the BBC descended and granted your wish. And now from all of those adventures abroad and on TV and everything you then said, I'm gonna move to this really quite, there's another car coming, quite quite remote parts of Wales. Why that?  Kate: We're going to head up here. Hold on, dogs. There we are.  Adam: Oh there's some steps. Hallelujah.  Kate: OK, only for this little bit.  Adam: Look, stop stop taking away the hope.  Kate: *laughs* So so I we moved,  Adam: Yes so you you picked up sticks and then moved to Wales. Perhaps it's not such a big move because the natural world has seemed to be always the centre of things for you. So but why Wales in particular?  Kate: Well, that is a curious question. I had no connection with Wales as far as I was aware. I honestly honestly can't tell you why I felt this extraordinary pull to live here. But it really was it was like a magnetic pull. There is actually a a Welsh word and I'm not sure I'm really allowed to use it in my context, but I can't think of a better word to use for the feeling that I had. And it's hiraeth and is a word that it's sort of more than home sickness. It's like a deep longing for the place that you belong. A yearning, a pit of the stomach emptiness for your home.  Adam: You felt this was a spiritual home, did you?   Kate: I don't know I really don't know, Adam. I, as I say I just had this extraordinary pull to live here. And yeah, I would look at the, there are these old fashioned things called maps, and I would look at the A to Z of Great Britain. And you know, there I was in the South East and if you look at a thing called a map,  Adam: Yes, sorry is this a point about me getting lost on the way to you.   Kate: No no not even remotely. No, it's the fact that no one uses them anymore, and yet, they're the greatest treasures we have. So if you look at a map, the South East of England is just this chaos of colour and roads and towns and names. And it's just, you know, there's not a square millimetre that hasn't got a name in it or something in. The further west you go, the browner the map becomes, and when you go over the border into Wales, it's mainly brown and green and it's got beautiful lyrical names like Abergavenny and and it's got mountains and mountains, when you've been brought up in Berkshire mountains are the height of exoticism. To live in a in a country that had mountains all of its own just struck me as being remarkable. I still, 15 years on, find it remarkable that I can I can get up at breakfast, not go terribly far, and climb a bona fide mountain. I love that. And that's what I love about Wales.  Adam: And and you've done more than, I mean, people might feel that and move to a beautiful part of the country and live there and more or less carry on with their ordinary life. But you've not done that. I mean, you're not just you don't just go for walks, the natural world is something you've created a a new career out of as well. Is that fair?  Kate: I wouldn't call it a career.  Adam: OK but you're very much well, but you make money from it and it fills your days.   Kate: Well, no, no, I don't think I don't know I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. I think you know I my working life is peculiar. I've I still am involved making television programmes, some of which involve the natural world. I still write, some of that's about the natural world, but not all of it. The natural world for me is nothing to do with making a living. Making a living. But it is about living. And it was one of the things that I was acutely aware of when I lived in London was I felt cut off from the seasons. This year you know, I know I can tell you that I didn't hear a skylark until the middle of March last year it was Valentine's Day. I can tell you that because that's what I'm experiencing. And I love feeling that instead of the natural world being something I watch on the television or I read about in a book that I am able to be part of it. And that's one of the big problems I think that we face now with trying to engage people with the importance of things like biodiversity, species loss, habitat loss. None of those things sound very sexy, and none of those things appear to matter to us because we as a species so weirdly and inexplicably view ourselves as a species separate from the natural world and the natural world has become something that we just watch for our entertainment. But we are just another mammal in this amazingly complex, beautiful, brilliant web that is the biodiversity web, where everything fits in and everything works together, and one thing feeds another thing and you know, until we feel properly part of that, immersed in it and and wrapped up in it, why are we ever going to worry about the fact that it is now a biodiversity net that's full of holes, and those holes mean that the net becomes less and less effective and the less effective that net becomes, the more it affects us, but we see ourselves as somehow immune from that process and we're not. And what I love about living here, what I love about walking in this area every day, twice a day, is the fact that I feel that I can, I'm I'm more in tune with our natural world and that is sadly, it shouldn't feel a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it is.  Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you're you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?  Kate: Yes.   Adam: So what do you, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?  Kate: I wish it didn't, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.  Adam: Do you do you feel that's an unfair question? Or do you think there's?  Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't perhaps don't experience it experience the advantages of the natural world, or they haven't been they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean, there's loads of science. And you know, it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, sing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online and and we forget that actually all we need is right here. And, you know, it's a hard sell for some to to somebody who's never experienced this, who hasn't had the privileges I've undoubtedly had, you know who have not grown up in the countryside, who find it fearful or boring or inexplicable, don't understand where they fit in.  Adam: And I think one of the perhaps growing debates, I think or interesting ones anyway for me is is the balance between trying to either scare people or make them aware of the environmental challenges and potential for disaster. And then so to sort of go engage with the subject it's really it's really newsworthy, it's it's it's imperative people do things and actually turning people off going well we're we're all going to literally burn, enjoy the party whilst it lasts. So what what do you feel about that?  Kate: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all all, all you have to do, all you have to do is watch Don't Look Up. Have you seen that film?   Adam: Yes.  Kate: And and and that, you know, absolutely embodies what you have just said.  Adam: So what do you think about that? Because I think there's a balance between going, offering hope, the power or audacity of hope is a phrase one hears as opposed to the sort of potential to frighten people into action. Actually the opposite, don't frighten them into action. Offer them hope of change. And I wonder where you feel that, if we've got that balance right, or whether,  Kate: No, we haven't got it right and I, but I don't know what the balance is because I think there's a real, I think that a lot of programmes that are made about natural history now have become so glossy and so beautiful and and so almost otherworldly that they don't actually reflect the reality of the natural world. And a lot of them again show the natural world without the context of people. And of course, that's sort of how we want to see it, we don't want people muddying those pictures. We don't want, as you say, the kind of the awful stories of the litter and the, you know, the the, the, the negative impact that human have humans have had on the natural environment. So we kind of don't want to see it, but equally if we don't see it, we don't engage with it and we kind of can watch one of those documentaries and even if David Attenborough is telling you that, you know, this is a habitat that's in peril or this is the last animal of its type that you will ever see, you don't really take that in because you're looking at these really stunning pictures and you think it's kind of OK. But I don't know what the answer is because I also know that as you say, if all you peddle is hopelessness and helplessness, no one's going to engage, they're going to stick their heads in the sand and just hope that it all goes away and pass it on to the next generation. So somehow we as communicators need to find a way that really does cut through. That really does make people feel, genuinely feel part of the natural world, that it isn't just another thing. I had the great joy of interviewing Tim Peake not that long ago, and I was interviewing him for a book that I'm writing about the concept of home. And I thought he would have, of anybody, a really unique idea of home having not just left home but left the planet. And he told me that he did a spacewalk, he was out in space for over four hours, and he said the blackness is like a blackness you cannot imagine. But he said, you know, you see Mars and Jupiter and Venus and you see Earth. And he said, when you're there, amongst the planets in that way you see that Earth is, as far as anyone's experience, and any telescope has been able to tell us, unique. You look at it and he said there it is, this colour, this blue and green planet, whereas everything else is, you know silver and and ghostly, ours is a living planet and he said he had this, he had this sort of feeling when he was there looking at Earth and imagining somebody, some other being coming up and tapping him on the shoulder and saying hey, hi,  who are you? I'm Tim. And he'd say oh hello so where are you from then? And Tim said I felt this enormous swell of pride to be able to point to our planet and say I'm from that planet there. I'm from Earth. I'm an earthling and I thought if all of us had that experience, could understand what it was like, how special our planet is in a universe that is infinite as far as we know and that we have, we have no idea what's out there, but what we do know at the moment is that our planet is unique and I think we would treasure it that much more and have moments like this of just standing amongst the trees and midges coming out, the drizzle, the mud and go, this is our home, this is where we live. It's really special. Aren't we lucky?  Adam: You're taking me uphill again aren't you.  Kate: I am taking uphill, but you've done the worst bit and you and and actually you marched. I was impressed!  Adam: Oh OK good. You know I'll fall apart after, I'm just doing it so I don't embarrass myself too badly.  Kate: *laughs* I'm afraid it is going to get very, very muddy, so you're going to have wet socks, mud up to your knees, you know, that's why I spend six months of the year in wellies.  Adam: Right OK. But you know, that is the privilege of being an earthling, isn't it?   Kate: It is it is.  Adam: So you've been you've got involved with the Woodland Trust.  Kate: I've been involved with the Woodland Trust for quite a long time, but it really started when we took on a farm near here.  Adam: What's this an arable farm?  Kate: No, it was a small council farm. It belonged to the council and people are not really aware that there are such a thing.   Adam: I've never heard this one.  Kate: No, but there used to be about 16,000 council farms throughout Britain and they were set up as part of the 1906 Smallholdings and Allotments Act and they were there, low rent, small areas, usually 30, 40 acres that sort of size and they would be available to rent for farmers who for whatever reason, didn't have a farm of their own. And over the years, as farming practices have changed as economic models have driven farmers to need to to produce things on a bigger scale, small farms have been basically relegated to either hobby farms or they've been broken up and sold to land that's been added to bigger farms. So we've lost an enormous number of these small farms and with them an enormous opportunity for people with farming skills to stay on the land and produce as food. And that's what was going to happen to this farm. And for whatever reason, I just felt this was not the thing to do and to cut a very, very, very long story short, we ended up taking over the farm and setting up a rural skills centre o prove that a small farm, ours is just over 100 acres, could still be viable. It supports itself and that's really important. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we were really interested to do when we took it over was to add more trees. It's it's got some wonderful ancient trees. There's an oak tree on the farm that we call Old Man Oak, as did the tenants before us. They introduced us to him and we think he's about 600 years old. And but we wanted to plant more trees. But we had this conundrum of how do we increase the tree cover on the farm without taking away the pasture because obviously we needed the pasture for the livestock and it was the Woodland Trust that helped us with that conundrum. So they looked, together we walked round the farm and we identified either areas where there were small copses or where there was a bit of a hedge. So what we did with the Woodland Trust's advice and input was to put in trees as shelter breaks, so not actually impinging on the pasture, just or very much, but adding a kind of a thicker bit of hedge if you like, or making a copse a little bit bigger and in that way we've planted over 1,000 trees on the farm in the last decade that we've had it. And then at home we have a four acre small holding and and so at the beginning of last year I started thinking maybe it's an age thing, you start thinking about legacy and when you when you take over a piece of land, what you start to understand actually very quickly is that you will never own it, that you are simply the caretaker of it for the time that you are around. And I think we've got cleverer now. Our knowledge has become greater. We understand that just planting trees isn't the answer. We need to think about we need to think of landscape as a mosaic and so what we wanted to do was to create a little mosaic. Plant trees, create water or make a space for water, make sure that there was going to be areas that had glade that was good for insects, that was good for wild flowers. And so I talked to the Woodland Trust and said, are you going to be into this idea, because it's not just planting trees and they went, that's exactly what we're into. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to create habitat. It's not about blanketing a landscape with trees. It's about planting the right trees in the right places at the right density to create something that you know, in a generation's time will have real lasting value, and that's what's been so wonderful about working with, you know, an organisation like that that sees big picture, sees longevity as as an advantage rather than as a disadvantage. And and that's what's been so lovely is that, you know, I can go to them and say so I've got this plan. I mean, I'm not even going to be alive to see it kind of come to fruition but do you care? And they went, we don't care, do you care? No. Let's do it. And that's wonderful.  Adam: Wonderful. OK sorry, this is a bit, this is the bit where I'm going ohh well, I'm swimming effectively swimming now.  Kate: Sorry. This is a very wet bit.  Adam: Hold on a second. OK. Right. That's a very Norman Wisdom walk I seem to have. OK. Yeah. OK, so ohh sorry, hold on.  Kate: It gets, that's the that's the wettest bit now, now we're now we're more or less home and dry.  Adam: Oh well you know what we we might be home, but we are not dry. That would be inaccurate at this point. So well, that's a neat story to bring us back to home with isn't it. So you know things are looking good. It's all hopeful. A a long journey and a long one ahead, you know, not just for you, but for that natural world you're creating.  Kate: Well, I hope that you know the the I I think going back to to what you said about how we can, we can help us all feel that we are actually, you know part and parcel of the natural world rather than observers of it or visitors of it and things like planting trees or being aware of the seasonal joys of the bluebells coming through, or, you know the leaf fall in the autumn and the colour, all those things if if i you know if we can build that awareness that brings with it huge joy and reward, then maybe we'll start to cut through again and people will start to feel more like the natural world is their world and not just another part of the planet that they live on.  Adam: Well having arrived back at Kate's home, let me just say there are lots more woodland walk podcasts for you to enjoy wherever you get your podcasts from. And indeed, if you want to find an actual wood near you well, you can go to the Woodland Trust website www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Specright and Packaging InfoMeyers Sustainable Packaging Guide eBookSponsor information!If you listened to the podcast and wanted to connect with Specright to rid the world of waste. Let's go! www.specright.com/pkg. Prepare your company for the world of EPR laws and be the sustainability hero! Make sure you check them out and join them on their mission to have a world where people are free to make amazing things!SupplyCaddy is welcomed on as the latest packaging podcast sponsor! SupplyCaddy is a leading global manufacturer and supplier of packaging and disposables for the foodservice industry. With headquarters in Miami, Florida, and manufacturing facilities in North America and Europe, SupplyCaddy is able to provide high-quality, affordable products for restaurants, chains, and foodservice brands globally. For more information, visit SupplyCaddy.com.[SUMMARY]:Circularity 2021 was a two-day conference that brought together people from various industries to discuss sustainability. Corey and Adam attended the event and shared their experience. They met new people, made new connections, and attended some great sessions. One of the highlights of the conference was the US Plastics Pack presentation of the awards, which attracted a crowd of around 1200 people. The event also had micro-presentations lasting one to two minutes, which allowed small companies to present their ideas quickly. Corey and Adam attended a recycling conversation featuring representatives from the Recycling Partnership, Eureka Recycling, Nestle, a sustainability consultant, and a PCR or Virgin plastic manufacturer. The discussion focused on why sustainability goals were not being met and the roles that different stakeholders could play. Adam asked a question about the impact of labels and RFID on recycling, which led to more follow-up from the panel. Corey had lunch with a group of people discussing repair and sustainability, which led to a conversation about packaging. They also met with the R Cup people who were doing reusable cups at music venues and sports venues. Adam met with Nashil Sony, who's building a whole startup around software and pet recycling, and was able to make connections for him with some other folks. The conference had a pre-competition collaborative energy, with companies like Mattel, Hasbro, Lego, Coke, and Pepsi working together on sustainability initiatives. They discussed standardizing packaging and using technology like near-infrared handheld scanners to test materials for recycling. Overall, Corey and Adam found the conference to be informative and a great opportunity to learn from people who are smarter than them. **Guest Introduction**​In this episode of the Sustainable Packaging Podcast with Cory Connors, Cory and Adam are coming to us live from Circularity 23 in Seattle. Cory and Adam are two of the most influential voices in sustainable packaging and they share their experiences and insights from the conference.​**Overview**​In this episode, Cory and Adam discuss their experience at Circularity 23, the largest circular economy event in North America. They share their highlights from the conference, including the US Plastics Pact presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair. They also discuss the importance of making new connections and the role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goals.​**Timestamped Chapter Summary**​- 0:00:00 - Introduction- 0:00:27 - Overview of the conference- 0:01:11 - Highlights from the conference- 0:02:30 - The US Plastics Pack presentation- 0:03:41 - The recycling conversation- 0:05:15 - The impact of labels and RFID on recycling- 0:06:38 - The importance of repair and sustainability- 0:07:35 - Making new connections- 0:08:20 - The role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goals​**Links and Resources**​- US Plastics Pack- Eureka Recycling- Myers Printing- iFixit​**Quotable**​- "It's been a tiring day as I think most conferences get on day two. Lots of great sessions, lots of great people, lots of great energy." - Adam- "One of the best conferences I've ever been to. So well put together. The food is amazing, the people are amazing, and the press are the best." - Corey- "I love being able to listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen, get a different perspective on why our goals are not being met and the roles that we look at, that the goals aren't being met and the roles that we can all play." - Adam- "It was just quick and it felt like TikTok sessions." - Corey​**Social Media Handles**​- Corey Connors: @coreyconnors- Adam: @adampackaging​**Conclusion**​Corey and Adam share their insights from Circularity 23 and the importance of making new connections and playing a role in achieving sustainability goals. They highlight the US Plastics Pack presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair as some of the key highlights of the conference. With the right mindset and collaboration, achieving sustainability goals is possible.Guest IntroductionIn this episode of the Sustainable Packaging Podcast with Cory Connors, Cory and Adam are coming to us live from Circularity 23 in Seattle. Cory and Adam are two of the most influential voices in sustainable packaging and they share their experiences and insights from the conference.OverviewIn this episode, Cory and Adam discuss their experience at Circularity 23, the largest circular economy event in North America. They share their highlights from the conference, including the US Plastics Pact presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair. They also discuss the importance of making new connections and the role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goals.Timestamped Chapter Summary* 0:00:00 - Introduction* 0:00:27 - Overview of the conference* 0:01:11 - Highlights from the conference* 0:02:30 - The US Plastics Pack presentation* 0:03:41 - The recycling conversation* 0:05:15 - The impact of labels and RFID on recycling* 0:06:38 - The importance of repair and sustainability* 0:07:35 - Making new connections* 0:08:20 - The role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goalsLinks and Resources* US Plastics Pack* Eureka Recycling* Myers Printing* iFixitQuotable* "It's been a tiring day as I think most conferences get on day two. Lots of great sessions, lots of great people, lots of great energy." - Adam* "One of the best conferences I've ever been to. So well put together. The food is amazing, the people are amazing, and the press are the best." - Corey* "I love being able to listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen, get a different perspective on why our goals are not being met and the roles that we look at, that the goals aren't being met and the roles that we can all play." - Adam* "It was just quick and it felt like TikTok sessions." - CoreySocial Media Handles* Cory Connors: @corygated* Adam: @packagingpastorConclusionCorey and Adam share their insights from Circularity 23 and the importance of making new connections and playing a role in achieving sustainability goals. They highlight the US Plastics Pack presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair as some of the key highlights of the conference. With the right mindset and collaboration, achieving sustainability goals is possible.[TRANSCRIPT][0:00:00] (Adam): Hey, you are live so we don't our audio. Oh, testing. Guys, listen, it's been a long day, the audio is not working, laptops aren't getting hooked up to the internet. We're rolling on the cell phone. Coming to you live from circularity with the band end.[0:00:27] (Corey): Backstage. All access.[0:00:29] (Adam): Yeah, look at that, all access pass speaker with the DJ press. Anyway, apparently we're live now. My iPad hasn't for me.[0:00:41] (Corey): Corey, we did it, we're exhausted. I still have another half day tomorrow but it's been an awesome time. I'm so thankful that you were here. We met a lot of great people and connected with people a lot for the first time, which is not normal for us usually we know most people, but to make some new connections, some brand new people, brand new companies, very excited, no doubt.[0:01:11] (Adam): Yeah, it's been a tiring day as I think most conferences get on day two. Lots of lots of coffee being consumed by myself and lots of great sessions, lots of great people continued, lots of great energy. Corey is going to be here tomorrow. I'm on a flight back home to Salt Lake City so if you are able to watch us right now, that's great. I know it's like 07:00 on the east coast, hopefully you're not watching us, hopefully you're spending time with your family and you see this on replay and you decide to comment on or whatever. But corey.[0:01:49] (Corey): What's?[0:01:49] (Adam): Maybe a highlight or two from the day. I'm going to pretend like we have a microphone. This microphone doesn't work. But Corey, why don't you talk about the copy that you don't really have to pretend.[0:02:08] (Corey): We got to experience the largest crowd I've ever seen in my career. I think it was probably 1200 people listening to the US Plastics packed presentation of the awards up on the 7th floor. Did you go up there for anything?[0:02:29] (Adam): Wow.[0:02:30] (Corey): We've been saying that there's four floors of presentation there's four floors and seven years ago.[0:02:38] (Adam): Yeah. Is what I think is the way it is.[0:02:41] (Corey): That was Abraham Lincoln.[0:02:44] (Adam): Oh, never mind.[0:02:45] (Corey): Yeah, nothing to do with nothing to do.[0:02:47] (Adam): I mean it could be well, nice.[0:02:49] (Corey): Hat, he liked boxes. But to watch Emily Pauldo and the team from the US plastics Pack present percent and to see the award winners which I have got the honor to interview them all yesterday for my podcast. Sustainable Packaging podcast with Corey Connors was amazing and to get to see that many people and I think what was cool in addition to that, John SME and team at Circularity 23, they had these micro presentations like two minutes or a minute and a half and I just thought that was really cool. They let small companies come up and present, this is our idea, this is what we're doing.[0:03:41] (Corey): Here's why it's great, here's why it's important. And it was just quick and it felt like TikTok sessions and I think this is a lot of the problem with these advances. Some of the presentations can be very long and very uninteresting and uninformed and.[0:04:01] (Adam): Not ours when we present the best. No, we're clearly right, Chris.[0:04:05] (Corey): Yeah, we're perfect. But no, most have been incredible here and one of the best conferences I've ever been to. So well put together. The food is amazing, the people are amazing, and the press are the best.[0:04:21] (Adam): I think clearly the social media influencers are top their game.[0:04:25] (Corey): Two of the best in the building.[0:04:27] (Adam): Yeah. Obviously, Corey and I got to sit in on a recycling conversation. It was the recycling partnership, eureka Recycling. Chastity from Nestle was there. There was a sustainability consultant and then a PCR or Virgin plastic manufacturer, I believe, and that was fantastic. I love being able to listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen, get a different perspective on why our goals are not being met and the roles that we look at, that the goals aren't being met and the roles that we can all play.[0:05:15] (Adam): I thought that was a really well done, well worth it. 1 hour of time. I got to ask a question about the impact that labels and RFID might have and actually have gotten a lot of more follow up from that from the panel. So we're going to be kate Davenport is up at Eureka Recycling in Minneapolis. And so Myers Printing, where you should go for all of your printed packaging and label needs. We're going to go see the facility and check out what they're doing and just get an even more better understanding of what our products actually do in the recycling stream.[0:05:58] (Adam): And then what was really cool I don't know. We haven't connected since then. But at lunch, were you at a table with a, like, a roundtable discussion?[0:06:09] (Corey): I met no, I was at a table, but eating. But no, it was rectangle.[0:06:18] (Adam): So I went into a room and they had these table tents, and it was like, here's the conversation. So mine was this guy from I fixit, I fixit.com these guys. And I thought, what am I doing here? Why did I sit down?[0:06:36] (Corey): What happened here?[0:06:38] (Adam): There are people who are there. And I was like, you all are so smart. And what was really cool about it was just listening to why repair is sustainable and why that is struggling to get traction. And then they started asking me questions about packaging, and I was like, thank you. I can finally right.[0:06:58] (Corey): Something in mind.[0:06:58] (Adam): I don't know about electronics recycling, right. But it was a phenomenal conversation, one that I was not prepared for. I sat down to eat, and all of a sudden, I'm in the middle of the repair manifesto conversation. But it was fantastic. I learned a lot. It's one of my favorite things about hosting the podcast, is just being able to learn from people who are smarter than me. So if you've been on my podcast?[0:07:22] (Corey): No.[0:07:23] (Adam): You're smarter than me, except for Corey. We're unequal. We're equally at the bottom. But we're most smarter than Avalio. Yeah.[0:07:31] (Corey): Sorry, Avalio. When you're not here, we get to make fun of you.[0:07:35] (Adam): It's quite true. But yeah. So, day two, I thought I was only in the one session and then had some stuff with work that I was doing. And then I had the roundtable lunch. And then subsequently I met with the R Cup people who were doing Reusable cups at music venues and sports venues. And that was fascinating. I'm super excited to keep following what they're doing. They've got a partnership with you, too.[0:08:03] (Adam): I met with my friend Nashil Sony, who's building a whole startup around software and pet recycling, was able to make connections for him with some other folks. And it was just a very dynamic day.[0:08:16] (Corey): I connected with him. He said, Adam said that I should talk to you. And I said, okay.[0:08:21] (Adam): Yes.[0:08:22] (Corey): Great.[0:08:22] (Adam): Perfect. Yeah. That's kind of what this whole thing is about. I heard a term I'd never heard before, which was and then I've forgotten it. Pre competitive or pre competition. So there was somebody there from, like, Mattel, and then he said, yes, we would love to work with Hasbro or Lego on these sustainability initiatives. Or it was mentioned about Coke and Pepsi working together on sustainability initiatives.[0:08:53] (Adam): There's very much that kind of energy here. This pre competition collaborative. Let's work on some stuff.[0:09:05] (Corey): What if packaging was standardized? What if Coke and Pepsi had the same shape bottle? Why not? We know what the label means. We know that the label differentiates it.[0:09:15] (Adam): It's clearly the most important. I mean, everyone loves labels.[0:09:17] (Corey): Yeah, labels are great.[0:09:19] (Adam): If you love labels, you should buy.[0:09:20] (Corey): Them from Label Company. Let me know.[0:09:22] (Adam): Yeah. Wow.[0:09:25] (Corey): It's a fantastic concept, and I think it's a part of the future.[0:09:30] (Adam): Yeah. The other booth that I saw that I actually made a TikTok video about. Was it B-A-M-F? That's bad. No, that's not. They're one of the largest companies in the world and I chemical Company. The chemical company. But they have a little spin off where they have near infrared handheld scanners that any company can have or really any person could have. It's $120 a month. You can take the scanner and you can scan your material and see if it's going to pass the near infrared technology when it goes to the murph.[0:10:10] (Adam): And so I thought that was pretty BAMF when it comes to recycling. Yes, exactly. No, that was really cool, though, to see that there's technology that's available for regular people.[0:10:27] (Corey): Well, and as a packaging supplier, aurora would be very interested in that. We want to be able to show our customers that, look, here is a test that says this material will get recycled. What a cool concept. What an important concept to be able to standardize that to test it, to show the result, and it produces a graph and really cool.[0:10:55] (Adam): Yeah.[0:10:56] (Corey): And what he was showing us was how this Htpe bottle had a shrink graph sleeve and those materials were different and the scanner could tell the difference between the two. Fascinating.[0:11:12] (Adam): Yeah. I thought that it was super informative, and that's kind of been the general feel. It's just like, let's help each other, let's inform one another because this is a conference about Circularity, and GreenBiz has done a phenomenal job, incredible with it. It's like the Marcos Pizza of conferences.[0:11:33] (Corey): It might be. Why do I keep the Pizza Hut?[0:11:37] (Adam): Bring up Marcos Pizza. Well, it doesn't look like anybody wanted to comment, and that's okay.[0:11:42] (Corey): That's all right. We're fine, if you will.[0:11:44] (Adam): We do. And if you catch us on replay, please feel free to comment and we'll try to jump in and answer anything. Corey, any last Monday?[0:11:52] (Corey): Yeah, we'll see you Monday. Stay tuned for four podcast episodes, at least from this. Actually, it'll be five by the time I'm done. And then we did our live yesterday. So thank you all for listening and for participating in our content. We truly appreciate it. We love what we do.[0:12:10] (Adam): And if someone who is here from Spec right, watching this, I got a ton of questions about Spec right. You should be at circularity. There's a lot of people ask me questions I'm like, I mean, I know enough to be dangerous, but you got to talk to the people. There lots of data questions, lots of EPR questions. So. Adam laura matthew ah. Simon hyman. Yeah, we'll make sure that you get out here next year, but it was great. Thanks, everybody.[0:12:36] (Adam): Appreciate it. And like I said, feel free to drop some comments in and we will do our best to answer them. Goodbye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.packagingisawesome.com/subscribe

I met the Yonder Oak Wood team back in March to discover how this landscape will be transformed for people and wildlife, and what designing a new wood involves. The vision is to attract plentiful wildlife with healthy habitat that offers refuge from weather extremes and fights climate change. The local community has been involved from the off - volunteer Sally Burton joins us to explain what she gets up to, how excited everyone is about the future and what volunteering means to her. We also hear of efforts to make the site more sustainable, from re-usable fences to tree guard trials, and I get my hands dirty planting a tree. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to, well, the wonderfully named Yonder Oak Wood. And although it's called a wood, it's not really a wood yet. This is a very exciting project, but it's in the very early stages of creation. It's near Exmouth in Devon. The Woodland Trust plans on planting, I think something like 13,000 trees there, creating a new environment for nature and wildlife to bounce back. Sounds a great place to go, I'm going to meet a few people there. First off, though, is my contact at the Woodland Trust today, Rachel Harries. Rachel: So this site is Yonder Oak Wood, it's not quite a wood yet, as you can see, but the Woodland Trust bought it in March last year with the aim of creating, creating a new wooded landscape here. So it's 54 hectares, we think it is the biggest woodland creation site that the Trust has done in the South West in in 20 years, so 54 hectares, that's equivalent to about 100 football pitches, and it sits on the sort of two sides of a hidden valley, just a couple of miles inland from the South Coast of Devon. So where we're stood, we can actually see out to the mouth of the Exe estuary, to Dawlish and and possibly to Torquay there as well. Adam: I I think you can just see the estuary over there can't you, just beyond that last bunch of trees is that right? Rachel: You absolutely can, yeah, you absolutely can. And actually the other day when I was here, I saw a white bird fly over that was an egret that was obviously based in the estuary, so really exciting. Adam: And why, now this site, I happen to know is, it it's quite important because of the anniversary and just explain to me, explain to me a little bit about that. Rachel: That's right. Last year was the 50th anniversary of the Woodland Trust and the first site that our founder Ken Watkins ever bought was in Devon. So it's really emblematic that we are now creating a new woodland, probably I think it's about 30 miles away as the crow flies from the Avon Valley Woods where we were started. But we're now creating a new woodland in the county of our birthplace, which is incredibly exciting, and we wanted to create something that would have meaning for local people and it would like, it would be tied into the local environment, so we did things like we looked at the name of the stream, we looked at old field names and we came up with a shortlist of names that we could then offer out to the local community and ask them which one, which one they wanted and what they wanted to call this new site. And one of the field names was Yonder Oak Park. And that's really quite special because as you look across the site, you can see all these incredible old oak trees over yonder, off in the distance. So I have to admit that was my favourite but we let the community choose and they voted for Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Right well you're gonna take me on a little walk around here, so just explain to me a little bit about what we're gonna see. Rachel: OK. Well, we're starting here on a sloping field that has old oak trees dotted about the landscape. Some of these are a couple of hundred years old and there's one in particular which we can see just off in the distance, which is one of my, one of my favourites that is standing almost on on stilts. And the stilts are actually its roots that would have once been embedded in a Devon bank, which is a sort of a solid hedgerow that we find in Devon that has trees planted on the top and the hedgerow and the bank has been taken away. So the tree now kind of stands about a metre above the height that it would have once been. Adam: Which one, I can't tell which one that is? Rachel: So can you see there's two in that field over there, we'll walk past it so we can have another look at it. Adam: Yes, I see that, I see that. OK, maybe my eyesight's not very good. So and this goes, these are currently separate fields and there's what a field and then a hedgerow, another field, then another hedgerow, then the tree supposedly on stilts and beyond that what looks like a solar panel farm. So is this the, what will be the new woodland all the way up to the solar panels? Rachel: We've worked to design a mixture of of habitats here, so we have about 5 different fields where we're doing much more intensive planting and that's what people would kind of imagine that would grow into what people would imagine a woodland would look like, but then in some of these other fields, so the field that we're stood in and a couple of other fields that you can kind of see off in the distance there, we're going to do a mix of open space, glades and groves. We'll plant some more of these kind of trees that will be allowed to to thrive and to spread on their own, but we'll also plant a mixture of of scrub and shrubs, so that's more lower growing trees, things like blackthorn, hawthorn dogrose, spindle, just to create a really good mix of habitats for all the birds and insects and bats that we, you know, we know are going to thrive here. Adam: And you, you've arranged for us to meet a a couple of people, haven't you? Rachel: Yeah. So we're going to be walking around with Paul Allen, he's our site manager and we're going to meet Sally Burton, who is one of our volunteers here. Adam: The weather's been kind to us so far, but it is a little nippy so we shouldn't keep them waiting. So do you wanna lead on and we'll go meet them. Rachel: Yes, let's go. Adam: And I'm told there there was some sea shantying going on here, which strikes me as odd because we're not, we're not in the middle of the sea or anything. So what's the story behind that? Rachel: Well, we're not far from the sea. We can see, we can see the, we can see the sea here. But we were contacted by a a group of local acapella singers who were inspired by what we're doing here and had decided to take some modern folk songs and to rewrite them to to reference the wood. So they came out one weekend and they sang to our to all of our planters, but we also talked a little bit about sea shanties, which I like the idea of becoming tree shanties. So they took a traditional sea shanty and they changed the lyrics. So we now have a song all about Yonder Oak Wood that we could sing along to. Adam: Great. And that we're going to hear that now from from you. So here's Rachel with her tree shanty. Is that right? No? Rachel *laughs* I don't think so. Adam: Do you have a recording of it? Rachel: I we do have a recording of it actually, yes. Adam: You never know. I don't know. Maybe a couple of teas or beers later, I might persuade you to sing. Alright. Brilliant, Rachel. Thank you very much. Rachel: Thank you. That's great. So here's Paul. He's the site manager and he's going to take us on a little walk down through Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Paul, thank you very much. Nice to see you. So you are the site manager. Paul: Hello there. I am. Yes, I'm responsible for turning these fields into a wild, wildlife rich area. Adam: OK. Well, go on. Let's lead on. We can have a chat about that. Brilliant. So yeah. So these are early days, Paul. I understand you you are responsible for designing the woodland. What does that actually involve? Paul: So really, I mean the the the first place you you start is is kind of kind of getting a sense of where the place is and what the place is and the the key bit here as we walk through it is you can see these big old oak trees and so we've based a lot of the design on that. So you can picture in the future lots more of these big old trees that will have lots of deadwood, lots of rot holes where birds can nest, and invertebrates burrow in. And the way we're kind of going to maintain it is we're we're going to put animals in and have low intensity grazing and then you kind of build in where the views are. Adam: I mean it must be really exciting because it can't be that often that you you get actually a green field or literally a greenfield site. But it's more or less bare. It's a plain piece of paper for you to design. That's quite, I mean, it's exciting, quite an honour, perhaps a little daunting? Paul: I've I've done probably 30 years of nature conservation and most of what you do is you take bits of habitat and you try and restore them, you try and protect them. You very rarely get a chance to actually create something brand spanking new. It is really phenomenally exciting for all of us, because if you think about it in the future, 100 years time, this place will be on maps. It will be on aerial photographs, you know so not only are we doing stuff that's great for wildlife and great for climate, we're effectively creating history as well, which is an awesome thing to be a part of. Adam: Yeah, so on the map it should say Yonder Oak Wood, brackets Paul Allen. *both laugh* Rachel's in the background going it's my wood, it's my wood. There might be a battle for the name. Paul: I'm I'm doing the design that says it from the sky it'll say Paul was here. *both laugh* Adam: Yes, yes very good, on Google Maps you can, you know, in 100 years time they'll go well how did those trees get planted in the shape of Paul? *laughs* So, OK, look, we're, we're, I've paused because we're at the we're at the top of the hill, almost. So what will happen around us? At the moment there are three or four trees in a line and not much else. So what will be here? Paul: So if you if you picture it in the future, what we'll have is we'll have a a, a a scattering of big old oak trees like we can see across the site and if you look over to our left, you can see an area that actually was the former quarry on the site. But if you look at it, you can see gorse that's currently in flower, even though we're in a freezing day at the beginning of March. And all of that is really good for wildlife. It's got lots of pollen and and nectar and lots of edge that birds and insects really like. And essentially what we're gonna get in the future is a combination of these big old oak trees and that lovely scrubby stuff that's great for wildlife. Adam: So here not too dense? Paul: Not too dense here no, not at all. Adam: So you get the view, you get a nice view and it's a mixed habitat. Paul: You, you, you, you get a view, it's it's very, we've we've constantly said we're creating a kind of a wooded landscape not a wood. Adam: Right. Well, we should carry on walking out, I have a tendency, just not to walk. I can see right over there some white poles which look like tree guards. Which does raise this issue I mean of how you're going to protect the trees because plastic tree guards have become quite controversial. Do you have a plan around that? Paul: Yeah, so we've got we've got, last year the the Woodland Trust decided that it would stop using the virgin plastic tree guards on its sites, which is actually a bit problematic because there aren't really any other types of tree guard that are commercially available at scale, so we're doing a combination of things here. The the main way is we're going to deer fence the site to stop the deer coming in and then we're also in some places we're trialling different types of tree tubes, so we're looking at one at the moment that bizarrely, has been made of sugar beet so it smells like golden syrup when you walk up to it, which is quite weird, and the ones you can see over there are actually recycled from another site. So we're, we're still, we're still using the tree guards that are effectively usable. Adam: Right. You talk about trying to protect the trees from deer. Which does raise the issue of other wildlife. I mean, clearly, we're gonna be hoping that wildlife get attracted into the area once this starts growing. At the moment though, have you have you seen much evidence of sort of new wildlife or any wildlife? Paul: It's still very early days yet. But we've seen lots of buzzards there's there's actually quite a lot of hornets nests in, in the existing oak trees. Adam: Is that a good thing? That sounds terrifying. Paul: *laughs* I I I personally I quite like it. Adam: You're pleased about that, OK. I think a lot of people always feel it takes generations and generations to plant trees. I know I have been at planting events where some young people have planted and said, oh, I think my children and my grandchildren might come to see this tree and then are surprised, actually, they come back to see their own tree and it grows quicker than they might expect. How quickly is this going to develop into anything recognisable as woodland? Paul: So I mean, with within 10 years, it will absolutely look like a woodland, although obviously still a young woodland and different tree species grow at different rates. So the silver birches and the rowans will actually be 6 foot high within two or three years potentially, whereas the the oak trees clearly will grow a lot slower. Adam: Wow, silver birch and rowan, 6 foot high in how long? Paul: Two or three years, if they if they take well. I mean it it it it varies depending on the soil type and all that sort of stuff, but they do grow very, very quickly. Adam: Blimey. And tell me a bit about how you got into all of this. I mean, I know you say you've been doing this a while. Paul: I started well I started off volunteering actually with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers a long time ago, and I got known by the Norfolk Wildlife Trust and rather randomly, I was having a beer in a pub and they went, do you fancy a job, and I went, alright then. Adam: Very good. So you've learnt on the job about trees? Paul: I I reeducated a few, some time ago but yeah a lot of it was learned as I went along. Adam: I've been very insulting, you've you've probably got a PhD in trees or something. But I do like the idea of, I got my job from a pub, I think I think that's always, I remember a story, so I don't know if you remember a film critic called Barry Norman, he always used to say, I I remember him telling a story, there's a pub around the BBC called, I think it's the White, White Horse or something like that. And he went when he was unemployed, he used to sit there pretending he was writing scripts so that BBC producers would come in for a lunchtime beer, which they don't do anymore, but they used to and they would go, oh, Barry, yeah there's a job we have and he wasn't working at all, he was just trying to be in the pub around and that's how he got his work, so that's clearly not just media, it's it's the tree world as well. Paul: It's it's it's very much very very clearly, a lot harder now than it was, because at that point in time, I guess nature conservation really wasn't a career. Adam: Yeah. We've come across a locked fence, but Paul has a key, there we are. There we are. Into the next next field. Ah, right away. Here's a very different type of fence, and I presume this is to keep the deer out. So first of all, massive fence, is this to keep the deer out? Paul: This is to keep the deer out. Yes, absolutely. And what will happen where we're standing, the hedgerow will creep out into the fence and obviously the wood that we're planting inside will also start to hide the fence. So the fence over time will disappear apart from the gateways. Adam: So I mean, there's a good 7 odd foot here between the hedgerow and the fence. You're saying that that hedgerow will naturally grow another 7 foot? Paul: Yep. So what what what we've got in this hedgerow, actually it's it's it's quite specific to this area is we've got a lot of a lot of small leaved elm and we've also got a lot of blackthorn in it and both of those sucker. So as as we've taken the the the intensive farming off the land the the shrubs will just sucker out and gradually spread into the field. Adam: And look, and we're standing by the main gate and there's a huge tree trunk here, which is holding the post. And I can see the bark coming off. Now is that is that deer trying to get in there do you think? Paul: No, that that's actually that's just part of the process of actually creating the post. Adam: Ohh, that's just that's just me being an idiot. OK, I thought I was being a clever nature detective *laughs* Paul: I mean what one of the one of the key bits about this fence though, is that that the Woodland Trust is now focusing very heavily on sustainability with everything it does. The, the, the reduction in use of plastic is one of those key bits. But these are sweet chestnut posts, so they there's no chemical preservatives in them or anything like that, and they're kind of the the the main posts at the corners, if you like, of the fence. And then we're using a metal fence with metal posts and and the idea is that when the trees have grown up after 20 years and they're no longer a threat from the deer, we can take this and reuse it elsewhere, so we're constantly thinking about that sustainability stuff all the time. Adam: Right. So we're in this more protected field. Which I can see has been laid out actually. Is this for the planting scheme, little posts and sort of lines of rope? Paul: Yeah. So one of the issues with going plastic free is it becomes very difficult to actually see what you've planted. Because if you look at here it just still looks like a field but actually there's somewhere in the region of well around 2 to 3000 trees already in there. Adam: Oh gosh, I didn't realise that. So yes, with the plastic safe, plastic guards on a tree you see these white telescopes sticking up all over the field, so there's thousands of trees here, we just can't see them. Right and a a lot of that has been planted by volunteers? Paul: We've had somewhere in the region of 400-500 members of the public come over four days, so we've got a a set of volunteers who have who've have have they've been brilliant actually, they've come and they've helped kind of manage all the public and they've helped work with the schools, they've helped us set out where the trees are going, we couldn't have done it without them at all. And here is one of our volunteers now, here's Sally. Adam: Brilliant. Alright, well, let's go over and chat to Sally. So Sally. Sally Burton. Hello. So I've heard lots of lovely things about you. So just tell me you're a volunteer, which in this context means what? Sally: Hello. That's nice. All sorts of things. I've helped this in during February with the public planting days and with the school planting days, helped children dig holes, some of the children are too small to get the spade in the ground very easily. I've planted quite a lot of trees myself. Adam: And why why did you get involved? Sally: I'd been looking for a while to volunteer for an organisation that does things outdoors and something a bit physical and so when the Woodland Trust appeared in the village hall I just went up and said do you need volunteers and they said yes please so I signed up straight away. Adam: And I mean, what does it offer you? Why is it a fun thing to do? Sally: I enjoy working with the other people. The staff are great and the other volunteers have been great fun. In fact, I've reconnected with someone I knew a few years ago and she's been helping up here as well, so that's been great. I like being outside, I love being outdoors. I don't mind about the weather. I like doing physical things and it's it's great to see, to make a difference. Adam: So yeah, so what what sort of difference do you feel you're making then? Sally: Well contributing to turning this basically what looks like an empty field into a forest. That's really amazing. People have been very excited about it. Lots of local people came up and planted on the public open days. Everyone's looking forward to being able to come up here and experience it themselves and enjoy the trees and the views obviously the views across the estuary and out to sea are beautiful. And there are lots of birds already. It's a very beautiful place. Adam: And so how much of your time does it actually take up? Sally: Well, during February and the beginning of March, quite a lot, I've been coming up for days, getting here about 8:15 and going home about 4 o'clock. Adam: Right. So why is that, why is that the the busy period? Sally: Because that's when the tree planting has been going on. Adam: First time you've ever planted a tree? Sally: I've planted a couple on my allotment, but certainly the first time I've planted on such a scale. Adam: Right. Have you kept count, how many trees are you in? Sally: No. Well, on one of the public planting days, I'd finished registering people and I planted 25 I kept count of those and on Wednesday this week, a school was in and when they cleared off, I finished planting the trees in their little area. And I think there was about 30 there. I'm not sure I lost count after about 12. Adam: There should be scouts or sort of brownie badges, shouldn't there, I'm I'm 100 tree-er, you know. Very good. Fantastic. Well, look, thank you very much. I can't believe this is the the the the field in which you've planted. Sally: It is, you can't see many of the trees. Adam: I I can't see any of the trees, what do you mean many of them. Ohh a couple yes. Sally: Across there you can see some with leaves on those are sessile oaks which were planted a little while ago, and they show up. Adam: Any of those yours? Sally: Possibly *laughs* They show up because of the leaves. But over there, most of the area there is planted. Adam: OK, brilliant. You're talking about planting, Rachel has appeared over the hill. She's brandishing a erm Sally: A spade. Adam: A spade *laughs* I forgot the name. You can see how ill equipped I am to do this. I forgot the name of what she's, so I think she's tempting us to go plant so let's go off. Adam: *coughs* Sorry, I'm already having a heart attack from the idea of physical exercise, I haven't done anything yet. OK, so we we have a spade and this is a virgin bit of land, no, no trees planted yet? Sally: No trees in this section yet. Adam: So I get the honour of planting the first tree. Sally: The first one. Adam: So you're gonna talk me through this and I'm gonna. Sally: So the first job... Adam: Oh yes alright, I'm already jumping ahead of myself. Sally: The first job is to screef? To screef the area... Adam: What what is what is screefing? Sally: ...which is where you do this to kick away the grass with your shoe to make a square or an area to get rid of the grass, doesn't have to be too big, not much wider than the blade of the spade, put the spade in there, and then don't lift it yet come round that side and make a square on that side. Yeah, cut it down. Then on that side... Adam: I feel I've hit the... Sally: One of the pebbles. And then the final side and then you could probably lever out a lump of turf. Adam: Then I can lift it out. Sally: OK, here's a tree. And we need to make sure when it's in the hole, the soil covers up to just above the top of the the highest root. So if we test that, that's not deep enough, so need to go deeper. Adam: It's not deep enough. Overall, I'm not doing particularly well I have to say. Sally: Let's have a look. That's looking good there. Adam: You think that's all right? Sally: Yeah, that's OK. So the next job is to crumble the soil. Adam: With our hands? Sally: With our hands, back into the hole, loose bits first. Adam: They didn't say I was actually gonna get my hands dirty. Sally: *laughs* And then if you've got any clods that have got grass on them make sure they go in with the grass facing down. Adam: Ok do you know why? Sally: So that the grass will die and then it won't be in competition with the tree as the grass uses a lot of the water. Adam: It's a bit leaning a bit, isn't it? Sally: It is a bit, let's push some more soil in. Adam: You see, it's fine now, in 20 years time, someone will come and go, who the hell planted that tree, it's at 45 degrees! Sally: Then the last job is you stand up. Adam: Yeah, stand up. Sally: And use your heel to press the soil down to push out all the gaps so that it doesn't dry out if it's sunny. Adam: And how compact, we don't want to make it too compact. Sally: Quite firm, quite firm. Adam: Yeah? Do you know what I don't, I feel that's leaning, that's no good. Sally: Don't worry, it'll straighten itself up. And the final thing is you do the tug test. Where you just get hold of it and just pull it gently. And if it stays where it is, then it's planted properly. Adam: I name this tree, well and truly planted. Sally: Congratulations. Adam: Thank you very much. Very good. That's brilliant. Well, I have to say although me and Sally were planting, Rachel and Paul were looking were looking on. So Paul's still here, how did I do? Paul: Well, let me just check, shall I? Adam: *laughs* You're doing the tug test. Paul: It's it's been really fun actually with with, with the the the public when you come and kind of just check it, you can see them all hold their breath to make sure they're doing it right. Adam: And it comes out *laughs* Is it alright? Paul: No, it's grand. Absolutely brilliant. Dog rose it, it's a little bit crooked, but you know dog rose will naturally straighten itself up. Adam: Will it correct itself? Paul: Yeah and it's kind of you can already see it's a bit of a straggly thing and it'll do its thing and it'll be fine. Adam: Fantastic. What is your sense, really, of of what this might be in the future and how exciting is that for you? Paul: I think in the future, you know, we're we're we're we've got something here that at the very beginning that is gonna be hopefully really important for wildlife and that most of the design is about trying to get as much wildlife here as possible because we're close to the pebblebed heaths it will it will act as a little bit of a refuge in the heat as potentially the climate heats up in the future and that's all really brilliant. And then the other exciting bit is the fact that we've started from the beginning with people involved. That, that, that scenario, but when you look in the future, the you know the the trees that we're planting today are going to be like these big old oak trees in 3-4 hundred years time that when you get your head around it is really quite amazing. And these trees and this wood will be on maps in in the future, and you know, we're creating history, we're changing landscapes and it's all such a a positive thing to be involved in. Adam: That is amazing that in 3-4 hundred years there'll be a woodland here, the history of who planted it, the history of us being here today will be lost. They won't know who planted these trees perhaps, they won't know the story, but the trees will be here. They'll be there, they'll tell their own story in the future. It's an amazing thing to be part of isn't it. Paul: Yeah and you know if if you think about how many times do you get to do something that will still be here in three, four, 500 years time? That's just incredible. Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you and don't have any idea of where to look, do go to the Woodland Trust website and its woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, so that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Did you know we have rainforest right here in the UK? Visit magical Bovey Valley Woods in Devon with us as we walk alongside a babbling brook and over a Tolkien-esque stone bridge among trees dripping with lichens and mosses and learn all about it. Site manager David Rickwood describes the features of UK rainforest, some of the fantastic species that live here and why this habitat is so important as he takes us on a lichen hunt, shows us an otter holt and much more. Find out what a rapid rainforest assessment involves with Tom, and meet Eleanor who is working hard to create a powerful alliance to protect rainforest in the South West. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees, for people, for wildlife.  Adam: When most people think about rainforests, they're imagining the tropical, densely overgrown jungles of, well, mainly of our imagination, because so few of us have actually been there. But what they don't think about is the rainforests of places as close to home as a Devonshire cream tea. And that's what's so shocking because Devon and some other parts of the UK have in fact some of the most important temperate rainforests the world knows. And it's shocking not only because it's a bit of a surprise that we have these rainforests, but we've not really been taking much care of them. The ecologist Dominic DellaSala said that today's European rainforests are mere fragments, a reminder of a bygone era when rainforests flourished and they're now barely hanging on as contemporary rainforest relics. Well, I'm off to see, well, I hate to describe it as one of those relics, but one of those jewels that remains with us in Devon to see what a British rainforest looks like, why it's important, and what's fun about it.   Well, I've come to Bovey Valley Woods, which, unsurprisingly, I suppose, lies in the valley of the River Bovey on the South East side of Dartmoor National Park, and rather close to Newton Abbot. You might have heard of that. There are lots of trees and there are lots of wildlife here, brimming with spring migrant birds, so we might come across the Dartford warbler, the brightly coloured kingfisher or the pied flycatcher, which arrives from Africa each spring to breed. We might come across some rather tiny hazel dormice, which I understand are here as well. I'm not here at night, but apparently if you are, there are lots of bats which hunt on the wing. And of course there's the Dartmoor ponies, which graze in the wildflower meadows around here, but we are planning on heading into the wood itself.  David: My name is David Rickwood and I work for the Woodland Trust and I'm a site manager here at Bovey Valley Woods.   Adam: Well, just describe to me sort of what we're looking out at now. We can, I can hear a stream somewhere nearby. So there's clearly that down in the valley, but describe what, what's going on around us.  David: Yeah. So we're on the eastern edge of Dartmoor. There are 9 river systems that rise on, on Dartmoor. They carve these kind of deep valley systems off the edge of the moor. So a lot of people, when they imagine Dartmoor, they're thinking about the big open expanses of the moorland, but actually all of these river valley systems are where the concentrations of ancient woodland and temperate rainforests sit. You know, they have this kind of ambient temperature all year round, so we don't have these extremes of heat and cold. And they provide those kind of perfect conditions really.  Adam: Yeah. I mean, when one thinks of Dartmoor, it is those, those bare sort of rather dramatic landscapes. But you were saying hidden in the creases around those are these, these rich temperate rainforest environments.  David: Absolutely. You see so although people think of the open moorland of Dartmoor and the high moor, actually, a lot of that biodiversity and a lot of the diversity is around the edges in these wooded valleys. So woodland bird assemblages is particularly important in this part of the world, so species like pied flycatcher, wood warbler, invertebrates like blue ground beetle, and, of course, all of these lichens, mosses and liverworts that are, you know, in these sort of niches in these temperate rainforests.  Adam: Right, so we've jumped into this discussion about rainforests. And we're in a temperate rainforest, but I'm still not sure what a temperate rainforest is, because it conjures up this image, sort of, of jungle, doesn't it, of hacking back dense forestry, of the Amazon, of sort of Victorian explorers, that's not the environment we're in, which leads, I think, me to a confusion, I think lots of people are confused about what it is we're talking about. How would you define a a rainforest?  David: OK, so in visual terms, a lot of the trees around here have what they call epiphytic plants. There's things growing on the trees, there's things growing on the rocks. There's things growing on other plants and you get this lush abundance of particularly mosses.  Adam: Yeah. So sorry, the epiphytic, it means it's living on it, but it's not actually taking its energy from that. It's quite a beneficial relationship?  David: Yeah. So if you were to go and look at a tree branch in, say, central London, you're not going to see it carpeted in mosses and lichen. So here the air quality is very high and so you get this abundance of of plants growing on other plants. And because it's so wet, moist and damp throughout the year, those plants can survive actually quite high in the canopy.  Adam: So the sorts of things that you're seeing in a rainforest are lichens. The trees aren't particularly different from trees you'd see elsewhere are they? The oaks and all of that. So it is, lichens are a big identifier and the amount of rain presumably?   David: Absolutely yeah. So we're we're talking about sort of 200 days a year where rainfall is occurring in some form that might actually be cloud, just wet mist, not necessarily pouring down with rain. And we're also talking about rainfall in excess of say 12 to 1400 millimetres a year.  Adam: And we're very lucky that we're in a rainforest and it's not raining. Well, it's lucky for me. So now this is a tell me about this piece of woodland itself.  David: And we're right on the edge of the moorland. And so the woodland here is gradually creeping out onto the edge of the moor, and it's spread out from these kind of core areas in the valley. Now, that's brilliant in terms of renaturalising the landscape. But actually it can be quite problematic for some of the species in temperate rainforests, so in particular on this site here we've got lots of very old veteran trees and ancient trees that grew in a landscape that was a bit more open, had a lot more light. And it's those trees that often have some of these really key species assemblages on base rich bark or what they call dry bark communities. So it's all quite niche in terms of the conversation. But those trees are really the stars in this valley and so whilst we're kind of managing the woodland here, we need to give, you know, conscious effort to kind of manage around some of those key areas.  Adam: So look, let's go off into the woodland, but just to tell tell me a bit about what we're gonna see the plan for the day.  David: OK. So the plan for the day is we're going to just walk down this track here and we're going to drop down to a place called Hisley Bridge and that crosses the River Bovey. And that in itself is a very enchanting and beautiful place, and I think probably some of this mystery around temperate rainforest will start to fall into place when you see that.  Adam: Well I tell you what, let's go, let's go off before we, before we go off on that adventure just, just pause for a moment to listen to that babbling brook. So we're talking about this rainforest in recovery or trying to build a rainforest here almost. How delicate is this environment?  David: It's interesting, I think probably in the past five or ten years, I think we've become increasingly aware, particularly through working with partners like Plantlife, actually how vulnerable these sites are and, and how the changing climate is going to be a real threat to sites like this. And whilst we're doing our best in terms of managing the site and trying to restore it and trying to create the right kind of conditions, there are some aspects about climate that we cannot manage. And so resilience is really this much sought after objective and I think on a site like this, it provides an interesting template because over the past 100 years this site has kind of spread out into the wider landscape. That expansion has created an element of resilience for us.  Adam: I'm not sure I fully understand, you're saying there is some resilience because of the expansion of it, but well, how does that create resilience?  David: So things like lichens, so so this, this site in particular is really important for lichens and Hisley Wood on the other side of the river is probably one of a handful of sites in England. As this woodland has expanded, it's allowed some of those species to actually move into the wider landscape. So instead of there maybe being 3 or 4 oak trees with a particular species here, there might be 100 oak trees with those species.  Adam: So the fact you've got more of them makes the whole thing more resilient, if something happens to one, it's not a disaster. Understood. So given, my feet are very wet, I I need new boots. Just just tell you if I'm grimacing, it's nothing to do with you. Oh, I was going to talk to you, but look at this. That is a bridge straight out of The Hobbit! Just, this is extraordinary! Tell me about that.  David: So this here is a historic bridge that would have provided the access to Boveycombe farmstead. So Boveycombe farmstead probably is mediaeval in origin, but the the structure that there's now is abandoned.  Adam: This is I mean just describe it, it's it's made of rocks and it looks so haphazardly done. It's straight out of, you do it in a film, isn't it? It's very high up, very slumped down. It is absolutely beautiful. I'm going to insist I take a photo of you on it. And and it's a lovely flowing river right underneath it as well.   David: Yeah so this is the River Bovey and about 200, 300 hundred metres upstream there's a confluence of the River Bovey and the Becka Brook. And these are sort of torrent rivers so they go up and down really quickly with the rainfall. So this area here and the bridge, in fact, at times becomes an island because the river comes up so high.  Adam: What where we are now, underwater?  David: Yeah so if you look at all of these stones, they're all water washed and you can see the sand from the riverbed that's been washed out here.  Adam: Oh, I can. Yeah, I can over there. It's amazing.  David: So coming here, you know, particularly in the autumn last year, November, December or the late autumn when we had a lot of rain yeah this was kind of underwater at this point. But these rivers are really important, or really important for things like salmon, spawning salmon, sea trout, yeah. So these, it's these kind of rivers that really would have had an abundance of salmon and sea trout in the past.  Adam: Do you still get some?  David: Yeah, we still get some now. And interestingly, even though it was super dry last July, the salmon numbers were the best they've been for probably 5 or 10 years.  Adam: I have many things to ask you, but we are gonna have to take a pause here as I take a photo. OK. Yeah. So the salmon, what other sort of wildlife have we got here?  David: So I don't if you can just look across the river there, but there's an oak tree and underneath the oak tree, the root plate has been hollowed out by the river.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that. Yeah, it almost looks like there's, it's nothing supporting that tree.  David: Well, interestingly it does flex up and down, but that actually is an otter holt. So the otters move through this area on a regular basis and we've got a great little bit of footage actually of a mother with two kits in there and they're in there for a brief while. But these rivers are really good and things like otters are a really good sign that the fish population's good. So there'll be dippers on the river here, kingfishers, grey wagtails...  Adam: I, I got distracted by the beautiful bridge, but it's all, what I wanted to ask you about, this is such a sort of, environment on the edge that you're trying to protect, but at the same time it's Woodland Trust policy to encourage engagement, people to visit. In this particular area and this particular circumstance, is that a very difficult decision because actually you're going, hold on a second, you do want people to engage. On the other hand, this is an environment which really needs to be left alone for a while. Do you feel that tension at all?  David: Yeah, that's, that is an ongoing issue and so, for example here, one of the things we try to discourage, and we do that by just felling trees or putting in what you might describe as natural barriers, is we try and discourage some access to the river in certain areas. For example, like dogs, so dogs and the otter holt etc is not a great mix. And then you've got species like dipper that are nesting in these tiny little, really, balls of fern and grass along the edges here. And it's very, very easy for both a person, let alone a dog, to just flip those chicks out of that nest.  Adam: A black Labrador just dipping into the river there. I mean there, there's this sense of, you know, sort of called honey pot, sort of attractions and that was an issue I think, particularly in Dartmoor, over lockdown, wasn't it, where it's, sort of places became overwhelmed and I suppose again there's a tension, isn't there on the one hand, they can get overwhelmed. On the other hand, if you manage that well it drags people to the big, famous place and leaves the quieter places on their own. So it's a 2 sided coin. Do you think that's a, a good argument or not? You're smiling at me, almost going, no, no, it's, talking rubbish, no.  David: No, on the contrary, I think we have got to learn to manage it. And I think there's a number of aspects to that. I think we can try and draw people away from areas that we consider to be more sensitive. I think we need to engage people and try and broaden everybody's understanding of what's important about these places because the more people that appreciate them, love them and understand some of the nuance, and it is nuance, the more likely you are to be able to protect these places in the future and you know, for them to be sustained.  Adam: We've got a lot of travelling to do and not much time, so let's cross the bridge and you're taking me to some, some lichen. Oh, God, I'm just tripping over there, OK, right. We're we're we're going lichen hunting.   David: We are going to go lichen hunting. Although this isn't actually the best example, but there you go. Can you see these? There are these little teeth.   Adam: Little teeth underneath the lichen, and so that's why that's called dog lichen.   David: Yeah, and that's, it's part of a group of lichens that that behave in that way and they use those to actually attach itself to the moss or the rock.  Adam: That's not the nicest lichen I've seen, it looks very crumbly to me.   David: It looks a bit dry  Adam: It does look a bit dry, is that how it's meant to look?  David: Well you know, obviously we've had a very long dry spell.  Adam: Now I've just picked up a stick and this is covered in the lichen I love, but what is that? Do you know what, do you know what that's called? Now you see, I'm sorry I've embarrassed you.  David: No, no.   Adam: No don't worry about it, you don't have to know every bit of lichen.  David: No, it's palma... something or other, parmelia that's it.  Adam: It's parmelia, parmelia you see the noises are from his lichen advisors. Parmelia, I think it's so pretty. It's nicer than jewellery or something, you know, I think that's very nice. So OK. So we're heading down the other bank of the river and where are you taking me Dave?  David: Well, we're going to head down to a meadow that was cleared of conifer about 20 years ago, and so that's where part of this site has been restored. But on the way, we're going to have a look at a big ash tree and an oak tree that overhangs the river and that has a particular type of lichen called the lungwort growing on it.  Adam: Horrible name the lungwort. And was that, tell me if this is true, that, was it the Victorians who gave them these names, oh no actually it would have been before that, wouldn't it? Because it looked like an organ and they thought it, therefore, it was medicinal. Oh, well, it looks like a lung, therefore, if you've got a lung disease, you should eat that.  David: Yeah so that's exactly what, what it was. So this one looks like the inside of the lung, so it looks almost like the alveoli of the inside and people thought it was some kind of medicinal kind of treatment for any kind of ailment.  Adam: We should tell people don't eat this stuff.  David: No, don't eat it and certainly don't cut it or pick it, because it really is quite a rare species.  Adam: And that's this?  David: Yeah so there's, there's, there's several little pieces on this tree here.  Adam: I must be careful because I'm right by the river holding my phone, my recorder and if you hear a big splash, that'll be me going into the river, right? Yeah. Also I don't want to tread on all the lichens. Yeah, go on.  David: It's this one here. Which is looking a bit dry and crusty at the moment. So this is the, this is the lungwort. But if you look carefully this is an ash tree and this ash tree actually is dying.   Adam: I was going to say is this ash dieback?  David: Yeah so this is one of the trees that really will probably succumb to ash dieback in due course, but this one, thankfully, is leaning into this really big oak tree next door and the lungwort has managed actually to migrate across onto the oak. Can you see there's some small fragments here? And further up there's more fragments. So this is where potentially the loss of 1 species may be quite significant for the for the lichens that are growing on it.  Adam: And do you get involved? Do you give it a bit of a helping hand and sort of pick one up and put it over on the oak? Does, is that a thing that happens?  David: So we haven't done here, but that kind of translocation approach is being practised in some areas, particularly where the sites are almost pure ash. So this site here, we've got a range of species that lungwort can probably actually grow on. So we probably don't need to go down that route yet, but on some sites it's really critical. So they are translocating it.  Adam: I love that, I go ‘pick it up and put it down' and you very neatly go ‘that's called translocation', but you did it politely, so you didn't make me sound an idiot, and I tell you what I can't, I can't, I want a photo of the lungwort, but I'm, I can't come over that close. I'm going to fall in, so I'll give you my phone, and you can take a picture. That way I won't be climbing all over the place. Well, joining us with our band of merry men and women is actually someone who's responsible for a lot of work behind the scenes and actually bringing people together to make projects like this, this rejuvenation of this temperate rainforest possible.  Eleanor: So I'm Eleanor Lewis and I am the South West partnership lead for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: I know one of the big problems with these projects is that the Woodland Trust can't, perhaps doesn't even want to do them by themselves, so actually bringing in local communities, other organisations is super important.  Eleanor: Yeah, absolutely. I think the enormity of the kind of crises we face in terms of kind of climate change and biodiversity and nature just mean that no single organisation can do it on their own. And we can be so much more powerful and have far greater impact if we join together and create kind of partnerships and work at a landscape scale. So that's a fundamental part of my role really is identifying those kind of opportunities and working with other organisations to basically amplify all of our kind of organisational objectives. So at the moment we're seeking to kind of establish an alliance for the South West rainforest, so that's everyone from kind of Devon Wildlife Trust, Somerset Wildlife Trust, the National Trust and then you've got kind of Plantlife, RSPB, there's too many kind of to name, but a really kind of good mix of environmental kind of charities, but also those kind of policy makers. So we've been having conversations with Natural England and the Forestry Commission.  Adam: So what are you trying to get out of that association?  Eleanor: I think there's a number of different things, so there is already an existing alliance in Scotland, the Alliance for Scotland's Rainforest and I think one of the key things that has demonstrated is actually the power of having a kind of a coherent communications plan and therefore having a kind of 1 voice that is coming from all of these organisations  saying this is important, this is under threat and this is what we need to do is a really kind of key aim of the alliance.  Adam: Well Eleanor, thank you very much indeed. I do, I mean, I really do understand that sort of better together spirit really does help to achieve amazing things, so best of luck with that. I'm going to go off,  Dave is down there and I can see he's he's joined by a colleague I think there, so I'm going to go back and join them. But for the moment, thanks, thanks very much indeed.  Tom: So my name's Tom, Tom Pinches and we're contractors and consultants who work in the countryside.  Adam: And you're brought in to sort of identify trees that, it's called what this rapid, it sounds very flashy, so it's like you're the SAS of tree men, rapid reaction force. What is it called?  Tom: It's called the rapid rainforest assessment   Adam: Right and what is the rapid rainforest assessment?  Tom: The assessment formerly known as the rapid woodland assessment, it went through a little bit of a rebranding exercise.  Adam: Right, so what is it?  Tom: So the keyword there is rapid, so it's basically a toolkit which was developed by Plantlife to to easily identify temperate rainforests. I mean, my role as as a consultant really was to work with the volunteers.  Adam: Right. So showing them how to use this toolkit.  Tom: Yeah. So in theory it can be used by people with with less experience of ecological surveys. But there is some nuance there which requires a little bit of, a little bit of knowledge.  Adam: And so what sort of things are you testing? What, what are the the characteristics you're trying to find to identify this, this temperate rainforest?  Tom: So it it can be quite difficult to identify habitats and and that's something which ecologists have been struggling with for a while because there's no single identifying feature. So historically it was done by identifying indicator species. In certain habitats you tend to get communities of of species which which you find in that habitat. The problem with temperate rainforest is that those indicator species are plants like bryophytes, lichens, liverworts, mosses, which are very specialist, not not that many people can identify them, but the other things you can do are identify characteristics of the habitat. So these communities of species tend to be found in certain certain types of places. So one of the things we were looking at was was the structure of the woodland. We were looking at the age structure. We were looking at the amount of canopy cover, so those things are really important in temperate rainforest.  Adam: OK, so that's really critical, so this isn't Amazon rainforest transplanted to Devon tea land. This is, it does look different from a a jungle type Amazon.  Tom: So absolutely so the similarity is that they both require high rainfall, which is why you find them on the on the western edge of the UK where there's a lot of rainfall.  Adam: OK. And I don't wanna get obsessed by this, but why is it important that we identify this as rainforest, it looks just a very nice forest to me. The fact whether we call it temperate rainforest or just a bit of forest, doesn't seem to me to be that important. Why is it?  Tom: I mean, so temperate rainforest is is an incredibly rare habitat. So you could ask, why should we be conserving any incredibly rare habitats, I think, as a as a society, as an as a, as a, as a population, we all agree that that rare plants and rare habitats should be conserved, and so it's really important to identify them in order that we can conserve them. You know, we talk about diversity, we talk about diversity of species, biological diversity, diversity of habitats. And each of those sub habitats have their own biological diversity, biological uniqueness, and it's really important that we that we can identify as much nuance within those habitats and within that biological complexity as we can. So we can kind of save as much as we can, that's sort of under threat.  Adam: And it's beautiful as well as isnt it.  Tom: It is, yeah, it's really beautiful. They're some of the, I think some of the most beautiful habitats in the country, certainly in the country, maybe even the world. Very Tolkienesque, you know.  Adam: It is, as we crossed that bridge, I said if you're making a film of The Hobbit, that's what you put in The Hobbit.  Tom: Absolutely. And and and and you know these are habitats that inspired people like Tolkien to write about woodlands.  Adam: There is something mystical about them, isn't it? They do feel sort of magical places, little weird stuff could happen like stories.  Tom: They feel they feel timeless and ancient, and that's because they are ancient right and that's why they're so important because they're so old and they're so ancient. You know these really valuable habitats they're there because they've had so long such a long amount of time undisturbed to develop the diversity that they have.  Adam: Well, that is a fantastic point to end on Tom. And we are right in the middle of the woods right now and I have a train to catch, so I've got to make my way out to this place. So Tom, thank you very much, of course, my thanks to Eleanor and Dave and even the birds, the trees, the muds and the rivers which have given us our wonderful soundtrack for today. Thank you for listening. If you want to find a wood near you be it a temperate rainforest or something a little less exotic even, you can find a wood near you by going to woodlandtrust.org.uk forward stroke find a wood that's woodlandtrust.org.uk forward stroke find a wood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.   

Join us for an episode of virtual time travel to visit Hatfield Forest, Essex and explore over 2,000 years of rich history. As we journey through this outdoor museum, we chat to Tom Reed, a Woodland Trust ancient tree expert, and Ian Pease, a National Trust ranger, who explain why the wildlife and cultural value of these trees makes them irreplaceable. Discover why ancient trees are so important, what makes a tree ancient, how people have lived and worked with them through the centuries and the urgent need to better protect them. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today I am off to Hatfield Forest, which is the best-preserved medieval hunting forest in Europe, which has a very rich history stretching back, well, a very long time, some 2,000 years or so. Now, the forest itself is actually managed by the National Trust, but the Woodland Trust works very closely with them. In particular, the reason I'm going there is to look at and talk about ancient trees, their importance to people and landscape, and of course, how old you have to be to be ancient. Ian: My name is Ian Pease, and I'm one of the rangers here for the National Trust at Hatfield Forest. Adam: And so how long has your association been with this forest then? Ian: Well, it's getting on for 30 years. Adam: You're looking good on it. Ian: Thank you. Thank you. [Laughter] Adam: That's very cool. Now look I have met you by this extraordinary, well, is it a tree or is it two trees? Inaudible just describe where we are standing. Ian: So, we are standing just to the left of the entrance road as you come into the forest and this is a magnificent hornbeam, er and although, like you say Adam, it looks like it's two trees it is actually one. Adam: How do you, how do you know? Ian: Well, it's done what's called compartmentalise. So, what happens when trees get to this age –and this tree is without a doubt probably around 700 years old – is the heartwood falls away and you're left… Adam: The heartwood's in the middle? Ian: The heartwood, the heartwood in the centre falls away, and what you're left with is the living part of the tree, which is the sapwood and what you can see there is that what trees do, trees are very good at adapting when they get older. And they are generally very good at adapting throughout their lives. So, what has happened here is this tree has stabilised itself by compartmentalising, so sealed off these two halves to stabilise itself and you can also see what we call aerial roots starting to come down from the canopy which gives the tree the rigidity and strength. Adam: So, where is that? I can't see, let's have a look, what do you mean? Ian: Yeah, so let's have a closer look. Adam: I've never heard of aerial roots. Ian: You can see these structures… Adam: Yes, I see. Ian: …these structures are what we call aerial roots. Adam: Yeah, they do look like… but they're not in the ground, they're in the air. So where are they...? What function are they serving? Ian: Well, they're basically supporting the tree and what's happened here, this is an old pollard, so originally, they'd have been what we call bowling in the top there, and the roots would have gone down into that sort of composted material that was captured in the bowling, and as that's gradually fallen away that's what you're left with at the top there. Adam: So, these roots are supporting the tree as opposed to bringing it nutrients or anything? Ian: Well, they are supplying nutrients for it from this compost material… Adam: Oh, I see, which is still there. Ian: You can still see some of it there. What's happened obviously is as the trees aged, it's fallen through. Um and you can see the compartmentalisation on the edges there. A sort of almost callous effect. Adam: Well, amazing, well look I gotta get a photo of you by this which I will put on my Twitter account. Do you have a Twitter account? Ian: I haven't, but I've got Instagram and Facebook. Adam: I'm sure we'll put it on all of those things so you can see what Ian is talking about. Fantastic, well look, this is just the beginning. And you said it was the ancient way, the ancient tree way? The road? Ian: Er no this isn't the ancient way. This is, this is the vehicle accessway into the forest. But having said that Adam, there is stagecoaches who used to travel from the east heading to Bishop… sorry, heading down to London, would cut through Hatfield Forest to cut out Bishop Stortford. Adam: [laughter] Okay right. An ancient cut-through. There we are. Ian: That's it. Adam: There we are. Not quite up-to-date traffic news, [laughter] but if you're a time traveller, that's a bit of traffic news for you. Look, my first visit here, we've come on an amazing day, I'm very, very lucky. What would you suggest I look out for here? Ian: Well certainly if you go for a walk through… what I, what I sort of advise people to do is to go for a walk around the lake area to start with because that way as you go down to the lake area you go through the medieval landscape. And what's nice about the lake area is you've got the 1740s landscape, so that's the Capability Brown heart to the forest. He was employed here in the 1740s before the National Trust had the forest. It was owned by the Houblon family, and he developed, formed the lake down there and built a shell house next to the lake. So, you could almost go on a bit of a time travel, you know virtual time travel, by walking through this wood pasture where we are now amongst these stunning ancient trees. Take yourself into the 1740s and walk around the lake and then and then go from there. Adam: Brilliant. I'm heading off to the 1740s, what a fantastic bit of map reading that will be. Thank you very much, Ian. Really, really nice to see you. Ian: You're welcome, you're welcome. [Walking noise] Adam: Well, I'm just walking out actually, into a bit of open field here. Ooh look wild mushrooms… must avoid that. Don't want to trample on those. And beneath one of these trees is Tom from the Woodland Trust, and he is going to be my guide to the rest of this amazing forest. [Walking noise] Adam: So, Tom, I assume? Hi! What an amazing place, amazing place isn't it? Tom: An amazing place Adam, hi, nice to meet you. Adam: First of all, this is an unusual forest in terms of the Woodland Trust because it's actually the National Trust, but you sort of… this is a joint project or, explain the relationship? Why this is different? Tom: So, the National Trust and the Woodland Trust are both really passionate about seeing the protection of ancient and veteran trees, are interested in studying them and knowing where they are. So, when… we're here today because the National Trust and the Woodland Trust have been working together, well, for quite a few years actually, we've been working together to map ancient and veteran trees to our Ancient Tree Inventory. And also, in the past year and a half, we've also been working with the National Trust on a project called the Green Recovery Project, which was a Challenge Fund that we, both organisations, were working on. This was actually one of the sites, in fact, I was here just six months ago where I got to see first-hand some of the restoration work that was being done to some of these trees, some of the historic pollarded hornbeams for example. We got to see how they are now being managed and cared for here by the Trusts. Adam: And it is an amazing place. I mean we're lucky to be here on a great day. Oh! You can hear… we're near Stansted, so you might hear an airplane in the background there. Oh, but we've come out of this lovely, sort of, bit of woodland into this amazing open area here and it's, it does feel a very mixed sort of landscape doesn't it? Tom: Absolutely, I think if, if you're walking here with your dog or just on a fun day out, you might just think to yourself ‘ah this is a field or some nice trees here'. But actually, when you stop and look around you can see these living links to the past, and what we, walking through here is a medieval landscape where you've got a mixture of ancient trees, we can see some decaying oaks in the background over there. We've actually just walked past some large hornbeam pollards. So, these are trees that were working trees, hundreds of years ago that were managed as part of this landscape to provide timber for those who manage them, worked and lived in the area. So, to be able to walk past trees like that and, you know, to touch them – these living monuments – is just a real privilege. Well, we've got a mix here, we've got a mix of young trees, mature trees, ancient trees, and this area that we're stood on now is called, referred to as wood pasture because it was historically a wood landscape, where you had both a mix of livestock agriculture and also tree management as well. Adam: Well look, it's amazing just to our left there's two lovely trees, and I… I don't know what they are… but they're so lovely two people have stopped to take photos of them and I mean just a measure of how beautiful some of these, this landscape is. What… just a quick test… do you happen to know what that tree is? Tom: Yeah. So, we've got two, sort of, mature hawthorns there, so erm elsewhere in the forest there are actually some much older hawthorns… we have some ancient hawthorns here that would be several hundred years old. These are probably mature, probably over 100–150 years old… Adam: And they got lovely sort of red, red splattering over them. It just looks like someone's painted that, it's quite, quite an amazing sight. So, you talk about ancient trees. So what? What classifies a tree as ancient then? Because if [laugh] these were young and they're like 100 or something. So, what's ancient exactly? Tom: So, it's a great question. So ancient trees are those that are in their third and final life stage essentially. So, the sort of, the age at which we call different species ancient is different because different species have different life expectancies, and they have different growth rates. So, for example, if we look at yew trees, we make all those ancient from around about 400 to 500 years plus. If we look at hawthorn, for example, we would say they're probably ancient from around about 200 years of age. So, it does vary depending on which species you are referring to, but essentially the ancient phases, the third and final life stage… and very few trees actually live old enough to become ancient. It's only sites like this where the trees have been retained where, you know, these trees not been disturbed, they've not been felled, there's been no development here. So, these trees have survived in the landscape and been allowed to survive and that's why we can enjoy them today. So yeah, that's what an ancient tree is. Adam: And I mean, obviously there's almost a sentimental reason you, you don't want to destroy something which is 700 years old. But from an environmental perspective, do ancient trees offer the environment, do they offer animals something more than a younger tree does? Tom: Absolutely. I mean, I like to think of ancient trees as being like a living oasis for wildlife essentially. So, these are areas where you've got a huge variety of habitats both, you know, within like the tree structure, in the roots, in the canopy, even within like the heartwood and the hollows. So, ancient trees offer huge benefits for wildlife. Adam: But sorry, you're saying that's more… a 700-year-old tree would offer more environmental benefits than a 100-year-old tree. Is that what you're saying? Tom: Yeah, if you are comparing trees of the same species. Adam: So why is that? What is happening in that period that offers that benefit then? Tom: So, the reason really is owed to the decaying wood habitat. So as a tree ages, you get natural decay that's often caused by special heart rot fungi that can decay the tree. So, as it's standing it's decaying slowly over time, and by – that decaying wood – it kind of creates a load of microhabitats, so you get huge benefits for invertebrates. In fact, the site we're on today is one of the top ten sites in the UK for rare invertebrates because of the decaying wood habitats that are here. If you imagine a decaying tree with hollows and cavities and water pockets… imagine if you're an invertebrate, you know, you're such a small organism and you've got this huge ancient tree with all this variety of habitats. I mean you've essentially got… your whole world is in this tree, it's a whole universe of habitats. So, that's why they're important. Adam: So, it's quite poetic, isn't it? In its decay… the very fact it's decaying offers new life. Tom: Absolutely, exactly. So, they become, you know, just… they just transform into these oases for wildlife and it's owing to the decaying habitats that they have. Adam: And what's the oldest trees that you've got around here then? Tom: Yeah. Well, so some of these trees may well be in excess of 700 to 800 years of age. Adam: And are they yew? Because yew trees tend to last the longest don't they? Tom: Yeah. So, a lot of the oldest trees on this site will be pollards. So pollarding is where you cut the branches of a tree above head height. This was a historic, sort of, tree management practice – essentially the people who used to live and work here wanted to farm their livestock, and in order to make sure that they didn't, sort of, graze on the trees that they also used to harvest timber from, they were able to cut the tree above head height, typically above two metres in height. And what that does is quite two things. For the people managing these trees, it means that they can easily harvest the timber because in absence of power tools… imagine they were using hand tools and as the tree gets cut back it regrows into sort of finer, smaller stems that can be more easily harvested. Adam: And that's the sign of pollarding, isn't it? If you're a tree detective and you see these, sort of, small stems all coming up it's a sign it's been a pollarded tree. Tom: Absolutely, typically it will have, like, a fluted form cut around about two metres at head height and you'll see like a typical pollard knuckle, which is where you see all of these stems converging on the same point. But pollarding does actually bring some benefits to the tree as well and that's why some of the oldest trees here will be pollards because it has the effect of almost stabilising the tree. It means that the tree doesn't get too top-heavy and then collapses and dies. Instead, it keeps the trees more typically smaller and if they're regularly cut that keeps the tree in that stable form. So even the sort of the trees here which are, you know, extremely hollow, they look like, you know, how are they even still standing, because, like, what's supporting them? Because they're being managed as pollards. And then, you know, there are some sites where pollarding has stopped, you know, for example at Burnham Beeches is a site where you can see a lot of the pollards have not been pollarded for a long time and they've started to become top-heavy now, so and that presents a risk that you get greater wind loading and then they fall. So going back to what we were talking about the Green Recovery project that we are working on with the National Trust. And like I said, I was here six months ago, and we got to see some of the tree management here and we got to see some pollarding essentially. So, they were sort of cutting back the… some branches in the canopy to basically continue the pollarding management to try and replicate what was being done hundreds of years ago to make sure that these trees can survive for many years to come. Adam: Amazing that. Ian. Ian promised me some time travel. He pointed me towards the Capability Brown landscape. Do you know which way that is? Tom: Yeah, that would be straight back down the track. Adam: I was going to say, it's going the other way. Okay, but do you think we should head this way first? Tom: Yeah. Well, I mean, we can. We can go. Adam: I'm going with you. I'm going with you and will… I'm definitely going to see the Capability Brown later, but you lead me on. Tom: We can certainly make our way back there. Adam: So, tell me about where we're heading. Tom: So now we're just, we're walking through a sort of former medieval landscape. So, we've got a variety of trees here, we've got some oaks, we've got hawthorns, we've got field maples, we've got hornbeams. And if we're walking here, we can just see the sheer variety of trees in the landscape. So, when I'm walking through this landscape and I can't help but think about, you know, the people who were working here and living here and the way that this, the site, was managed. We can hear overhead planes are leaving Stansted Airport and I can only imagine what those people would have thought about that [laugh]. And it just, it just makes you think about the changes that this landscape has seen. And erm obviously the reason that we have ancient trees here is because this part of the landscape has remained unchanged. So, whilst there's been a lot of change around this site, this area has survived and that's ultimately enabled these trees to survive as well. Adam: Now you look after a lot of woodland. What separates this from lots of the other things that you've got an association with? Tom: So, I suppose what's really interesting about this site is that it's a former forest and then when we think about forests, people typically think about trees and they probably picture woodland, but actually… Adam: That's fair enough, isn't it? Tom: It's fair enough, but forest actually has a very different meaning in terms of the medieval sense. So, a forest was essentially an area of land that was subject to special hunting laws and these new areas were preserved really for the royals and, well, the royals and their sort of associates to hunt deer and enjoy riding through the landscape and they liked this kind of open landscape where the trees were kind of scattered. So, when you think of forests, like people typically think of dense woodland, but actually, it's more like this. It's big trees in a sort of sparse landscape where deer are allowed to run around, and the royals could be… were there on horseback sort of chasing them and hunting them. It was sort of a sport for them. And in a lot of sense, the commoners, if you like, were kept away from sites like this. An erm, but then the kind of, the legacy has been preserved. Adam: And it's interesting, isn't it, that because we think of these as natural places, they are natural places, that's what's important about them. But they're not unmanaged. It's not like the hand of man has not had a role in shaping this has very much been a man-made, a man-shaped environment. Is that fair? Tom: That's absolutely fair, yes. If I was… what's interesting when we look at ancient tree distribution more generally, there is a clear link between humans and where ancient trees are. So, for example, you might find ancient yew trees often in a churchyard setting, coz often…, well, ancient yews were respected by sort of earlier civilizations, the early Christians, even before that, the Druids respected ancient yews, which is why they've kind of been retained and associated with places of religious worship, you know, so there's always those kind of links between where humans have been and where ancient trees are now. And it just shows that really throughout history we've respected our trees, you know, other civilizations and cultures have respected these trees and you know, now we need to respect them too and continue their legacy. Adam: And I suppose one of the things that's striking for me is that although we are near Stansted, although it hasn't taken me long to drive from London, as far as you can see, you can't see anything. It's sort of trees for as far as you can see. It's a remarkable oasis in a rather heavily developed part of the UK. Tom: Absolutely. You know, to be able to come to this site only like an hour away from London is quite remarkable really, that places like this have survived. It's like a living outdoor museum almost. You know, you can go up to some of these trees, put your hand on them and these were the same trees that were being worked on over 500 years ago. You know… how many elements of nature can you say that about? You know, it's a remarkable privilege to be able to go and visit trees like that. That were managed hundreds of years ago. Adam: OK, now there is a suitable bench almost shaped fallen branch, so maybe we can head over there for a sit down and a chat. Tom: Sounds good. Hey, got some good sort of… at the top of the tree there, you've got something called retrenchment which is basically where the tree is dying back essentially. Adam: Right. Tom: So, over time like the canopy sort of reorganises itself. And then the tree kind of grows downward eventually. So, trees don't grow infinitely up and up and up, they tend to get… they die down and they get broader over time. Adam: So that's the sign of a change in its lifestyle… life stage sorry? Tom: Absolutely. Adam: So, we can see some sort of dead branches at the top that means it's coming into another stage, it's probably going to thicken out a bit. Tom: Exactly. Yeah. So, what I mean… what's happening essentially as the tree reaches a sort of theoretical maximum size… eventually, the tree can't transport that water from the roots. That kind of hydraulic action becomes limited. It can't pump water to the very top of the tree and so it, kind of, stops investing in those branches. It's grown to a good height, it doesn't need to compete with other trees around it, so it starts to reorganise itself. And those branches at the top start to die back and instead the tree invests in some of those like low… what were lower branches and they become more dominant, and the tree becomes broader in profile. The trunk becomes much wider as well. So, it's a typical sign of an ancient tree that they will typically have a large girth for their species. Like the trunk will have a large circumference for its species. That's like a key sign. Adam: Alright, look, this isn't… I can't quite sit on this one, but this is a very very pleasant place to stop. So, one of the big projects from the Woodland Trust is this Ancient Tree Inventory and I think you're sort of… you're in charge of that. So, what is that? Why is it important? Tom: So, the Ancient Tree Inventory is a citizen science project. So it's something that anyone can take part in and essentially what it seeks to do is to map ancient, veteran and notable trees across the UK to an online interactive map that everyone can, sort of, see, use, and enjoy. It started as a project called the Ancient Tree Hunt and essentially it was just to get ancient trees on the radar really, to get people inspired by them, to get people out there recording them. And in that project alone they mapped over 100,000 trees. But since then, it continued under the name of the Ancient Tree Inventory, and we're continuing to map trees on a daily basis. So, we have a network of volunteers around the UK who are more expert volunteers who are called verifiers, and what they are doing is going out and checking trees that members of the public have added. So, if people have been on a walk and have seen a big tree or a tree that looks like it's old – might be ancient, might be veteran – they add it to the map, that gets recorded as an unverified tree and then one of our volunteer verifiers comes along, they'll visit the tree and they'll assess whether they think it's an ancient tree or a veteran or a notable. They'll also maybe take some extra measurements of the tree, they'll check that it's been recorded in the right place and that the species has been identified correctly, things like that. Essentially what we're trying to do with the Ancient Tree Inventory, as well as raising awareness about ancient and veteran trees, is also, erm, our role in terms of research and understanding their current distribution. But also, from their protection point of view, the Ancient Tree Inventory is actually a really useful resource for the likes of people doing environmental impact assessments. So, we get a lot of requests for data from ecological consultants, from arboriculture consultants, even the local authorities that want to know where are the most significant ancient and veteran trees in their county or on a particular site, so that that can then be used to help inform, you know, planning decisions and, you know, we'd like to think that that is going to grow more that when, for example, there's a development or, you know, some sort of proposed change to an area that people will consult the Ancient Tree Inventory and they'll consider, sort of, changing plans if ancient or veteran trees are going to be harmed. We really just want to make sure that there is no loss… further loss of ancient and veteran trees essentially. Adam: And what sort of protection do ancient trees have? Do they have… like a listed building you get listed protection so you can't mess around with it. You can't knock it down, can't alter it. Does a 700-year-old tree get the same protection as a 700-year-old piece of brick? Tom: Well, I'm afraid to say the answer to that is no. So, none of the ancient trees, don't have any legal protection in the UK. As you say, some of our most treasured monuments and buildings benefit from scheduled monument status, but for ancient trees which may be of, at least the same age if not older, they don't have any protection. In fact, I remember on a recent visit to a churchyard where we went to see a really remarkable ancient yew tree, I think someone jokingly said at the time that the wood in the beams of that church are probably more protected than the wood in the trunk of that ancient yew tree. And that, kind of, really opened my mind to that whole debate on making that comparison between built heritage monuments and ancient trees. And we really want to see ancient trees be more considered as features of our cultural heritage, archaeological heritage, you know, they really are these living monuments and we need to look after them. Adam: Do you get a sense that public opinion is swinging in that direction to support ancient trees? Tom: Yeah, I think it is. I mean, you know, based on my role of working on the Ancient Tree Inventory, I've the fortune of speaking to members of the public about their ancient trees. And we do get lots of concern expressed to the Woodland Trust about, you know, what's happening to ancient and veteran trees in their area. But there is actually something that we're doing at the moment at the Trust which is our Living Legends campaign that launched earlier this year. So, we're actually making an attempt to gain stronger protection for ancient and veteran trees. We have a petition that's live at the moment and the campaign has a lot of different activities happening at the moment, but one of the headline things anyone can do is sign our petition where we're calling for stronger legal protection, for that to be reflected in policy so that there is basically legal protection to stop any harm to the trees. Adam: Okay. So, if someone's interested in being a volunteer and, sort of, adding to that inventory, how do they go about it? Tom: Yeah, so anyone can take part in the Ancient Tree Inventory. All they need to do is go to the Ancient Tree Inventory website where they'll be able to register, and they'll be able to create a free account. Essentially that means that when you sign into your account, you can just record the trees. The main things that you'll need to record are things like, you know, where the tree is so you take like a grid reference. Erm, if you can record the girth of the tree – so, this is the circumference of the tree – of the trunk itself… Adam: So, you need a long tape measure? Tom: Yeah, we typically suggest having a tape measure around about 10 metres where you can often get like a surveyor's tape from your local hardware store for example. And you can measure the trunk, normally about one and a half metres from ground level for consistency. You're really looking for the narrowest girth of this trunk. So, if the tree has like a big, sort of, burr, or if there's like a low hanging branch, then just record underneath it to try and get the narrowest measurement. So that… and that's essentially the most technical elements. If you can just record as well the species of the tree, whether it's on public or private land, do make sure to record some photos as well. The key things that we're really interested in looking at with a tree when we're assessing whether it's ancient or veteran is our veteran features or decay features. So, these are the kind of decaying wood habitats, for example, if the tree is hollowing, if the tree has decaying branches… so the tree behind me here has some deadwood in the top of the crown – this is what we call retrenchment. And any other kind of deadwood cavities, water pockets, holes, that sort of thing is all great to capture, both in the record itself, but also in the images too. Obviously, the more that people can tell us about trees, the more we know. And then it makes it a much more valuable resource. So, we always encourage people to submit as much information as they can. Adam: And if I mean like me, I'm very bad at spotting tree types. If you don't, if you see an old tree and you think I wanna record that, but I don't know what sort of tree it is, is that a problem or can you just go look, here's a photo, you'll probably know better than I do? Tom: Yeah. So, it is possible to record the species as unsure. It might be that you know that it's an oak, but you're not sure if it's pedunculate or sessile, so you can just record it as oak. We have a network of volunteer verifiers who are sort of ancient tree experts who will check… Adam: Check your homework for you. Tom: Yeah, exactly. Adam: And if you can't spot the tree type, there is actually a Woodland Trust app, isn't there? Tom: Yeah, that's right Adam, we have a… the Woodland Trust has a species identification app that you can use as well. The good thing is that for our ancient trees, most of the time they are actually native. So, the common native species are typically going to be, you know, oaks, beech, ash, hornbeam, yew trees. So, you know, these are species that most people are quite familiar with cause they tend to be native. Adam: We should do a podcast on that, sort of, how to spot the top five native UK trees. An idea for another podcast… you may be dragged back into this. Fantastic. Tom: Sounds good. [Pause] Adam: So, we've been walking through a beautiful sort of woodland glade, a very covered area. And what is typical of this particular site is that you do come out into so many different landscapes and so we've come out into this very open area, all of a sudden with this extraordinarily large lake. I think there's something suspiciously like a tearoom next door which might attract my attention in a moment… and a couple of seats finally to sit down. So, Tom, now… It's a beautiful place. I mean we're, we're... The weeds rustling in the wind, framing the lake in front of us… There's some ducks and some rowing boats and this is a wonderful place. But I… the feature here is ancient woodland, so is there a way of sort of measuring the value of a particular tree? Do you… is it very just sort of thumb in the air, sort of thing, in the wind… or is there a more scientific approach you can take? Tom: Yeah, I think there are lots of ways in which different people value their ancient trees and so one acronym we tend to use to capture, sort of, the main themes of why we value our ancient trees, can be thought of as ABC. So that stands for aesthetic value, biological value and cultural value. There is also historical value, which I'll talk about in a moment, but think about, sort of, aesthetic value and why our ancient trees are important, you know, can you imagine, sort of, walking through the landscape that we're walking today without the ancient trees? They do provide, like the character of this site, you know, walking and seeing these big hollowing living monuments – they're almost like sculptures. And, you know, not just on these sorts of sites, but if you think of what would our churchyards look like without our ancient yews? Or what would our hedgerows look like without those old hawthorn trees? Or what would our, sort of, the Highlands of Scotland look like without those, kind of remarkable lone standing-proud alders, and rowans and hollies that are like really typical of that landscape? So, because ancient trees form, like, a really important part of the overall character of our landscape that's one way in which we value them. The other way, of course, is biologically, so they provide immense habitat variety for wildlife and a single tree can support thousands of species and that's owing to the decaying wood habitats that they have. So as a tree ages it naturally hollows, starts to break down, you get hollowing in the branches, in the trunk, you get hollowing around the base of the tree – what we call buttressing. All of these create pockets and habitats and even microhabitats for wildlife, so it can be used by a range of organisms from birds to reptiles, to mammals like squirrels, badgers. For example, with birds, as well, owls will use them, they will actually use the cavities found in the canopies of ancient trees, they make their nests. Same for woodpeckers, which will use decaying wood to make their nests and bore for invertebrates. And of course, the invertebrates themselves – the opportunities provided to invertebrates by ancient trees is remarkable. There's a special term to describe invertebrates that depend on decaying wood, and that word is saproxylic. So, saproxylic invertebrates are those which depend on this decaying wood for a part of their life cycle. And then there is also the cultural value that we place on our ancient trees. Adam: So, that's the C. Tom: That's the C in our ABC. Adam: So, tell me about the cultural values. Now actually… that must be a hard thing to measure? Tom: Absolutely so, it's not always clear, in fact, that some trees you may walk past and not know that that tree has been, or you know what it's seen in its life and how other people in the past have interacted with it. For example, ancient trees in the churchyards, so it is often that you find ancient yew trees linked with former sites of religious worship because the… our early ancestors, the druids, and the sort of, early Christians had a… they saw, essentially, ancient yew trees as a deity, they worshipped them, they respected them. And as a result, those ancient yews persisted in that landscape. Adam: The cultural aspect, there's a cultural aspect, but there is also, it doesn't run from the alphabet [inaudible] ABC H, there's an H isn't there? A historical reference here, because these trees have been around for 700 years, 1000 years – kings and queens will have wandered under these trees, important decisions would have been made. Historic really, really historic decisions would be made. And under the boughs of these trees. Tom: Absolutely. And so, there are some trees around UK which we refer to as heritage trees that have… that we know have bared witness to some important historical moments. Or that well-known historical figures that visited those trees. For example, we have the Queen Elizabeth Oak or we have the Tolpuddle Martyrs' Tree which is thought to bear witness to the start of the trade union movement in the 1800s, and we have the Ankerwycke Yew that bared witness to the signing of the Magna Carta by King John, under that very tree. And it's still there today, a tree that is over 2,000 years old has, you know, such important historical values – irreplaceable in fact. That is probably the one word that we would like people to associate with trees – is the word irreplaceable. Because if that tree was to be lost, you would lose all of that historical reference. Adam: Fantastic. You know this site well, I mean you've come a long way to see me today, so I'm super pleased and very grateful for the guide. But I know you love this place, don't you? Tom: Absolutely. I need no excuse to come here. I think it just feels like walking back in history essentially. And there's just an amazing variety of trees. Yeah, I could just spend the whole week here. Adam: I think my family might miss me in a week, but who knows? They might not… they might not notice. But they're certainly not going to notice for the rest of day, so I'm going to take the rest of the day here. Thank you very much. Well, my thanks to Ian from the National Trust and Tom from the Woodland Trust but most of all, I suppose, thanks to you for listening. Now do remember if you want to find a wood near you, well, the Woodland Trust has a website to help. Just go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Now you can find a wood near you. Well, until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Much as I love a woodland walk, my tree identification skills leave a lot to be desired, so I travelled to Londonthorpe Wood, Grantham for a lesson from the experts. We join tree ID guru Sally to learn how to recognise common trees from their leaves, catkins, bark and berries. From apple and ash to hawthorn and hazel, she also tells us more about the trees' value for wildlife. I learned so much during this episode, and I hope you do too. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Do you know what? I have been wandering around woods for many years and I've been doing so rather ignorantly. I mean, I like it and everything, but I actually don't know the names, or the histories, or the importance of a lot of the trees I am passing. So, I've tried to correct that, and to do that I'm taking a little lesson. I'm going back to school, and I'm doing that with the assistance of Sally Bavin, who is the assistant conservation evidence officer at the Woodland Trust. And we're going to Londonthorpe Wood, which is near Grantham, which is in fact near the headquarters of the Woodland Trust. And she's going to run me through some of the key things to look out for in trees. Now, of course, we're coming to the end of the easy season to identify trees because leaves are a big clue. Leaves are falling off the trees, as is their wont at this time of year. But nonetheless, there are still enough of them around for me to make a good guess and I thought it was high time I learn something and hopefully have a bit of fun and share that insight with you. So, off to Londonthorpe Wood, it is! And I'm gonna meet Sally Bavin from the Woodland Trust. So, Sally, hi! We've met under a tree. Look at… I can tell straight away it's an apple tree because it has apples on it! [Laugh] Sally: Yes! Adam: But I come for some lessons – gone back to school. You know, how to identify trees when they don't have apples on them, so they are not as easily identifiable. So, is this what you do at the Trust? Go around identifying trees? Is this what you do normally? Sally: [Laugh] Not all the time, but a small part of my role is, erm I lead a tree ID course. So, it's just an afternoon, we run it about every six months. Adam: Yes, I have to say, I mean I was very keen to do this, well, because I've gone to lots of woodlands, I am very ignorant about identifying trees. And I was thinking, we've gotta rush before all the leaves fall off, because then it's a lot harder, but they're still, there are trees that have got lots of leaves.  So, before we start the course. Why is it important to know what a tree is – what species of tree you're looking at? Sally: Yeah, well, I think it depends. It depends on who you are as to what your interest is in the trees. I think generally for just the public it's a nice thing to note, help you understand your surroundings of a lot better and it's a sort of the first step into connecting with nature, at a bit of a deeper level than just enjoying the greenery. Because you can then look for the specific things about different species that changed throughout the seasons, and you can be expecting the apples and looking out for them in summer when they're only just appearing. That sort of thing.  So, it's good for helping people to connect with nature on a more personal level. Because the type of trees in a woodland can tell you a lot about the sort of story of the woodland. So, it could help indicate whether it's ancient woodland. It could tell you about what sort of soil types underlying the sites are and that kind of thing. What ground flora, therefore, you're likely to sort of expect and indicate the condition of the woodland in terms of ecological health. So, if you've got lots of non-native tree species there that could tell you that the woodland's perhaps degraded and in need of restoration, that kind of thing. Adam: Okay, fantastic, and you're going to take me on a little journey and we're going to identify some trees. Now, I have to say first of all, about me personally, and I think others as well might find this whole thing rather daunting because there are probably thousands of tree types, and you think how on earth am I going to get to know any trees? Really as I'd have to go back to university really. Is it as daunting as it sort of first sounds? Sally: No, definitely not. There's only a handful really of really common species. So, for example, maybe sort of ten of the most common would be oak, ash, hawthorn, birch, beech, Scots pine, rowan, hazel, blackthorn and willow. And then you get to know those and then you sort of gradually pepper some more interesting species in between.  Adam: Right, so that's very manageable. Super! There are sort of 10 of some of the most popular, well-known, widely dispersed UK native trees, the list of which I've already forgotten. But if you know those ten you can sort of work your way around the woodland fairly well. Sally: Yeah. And it depends on where you are coz you won't necessarily see all of those even. Adam: No, okay, very good. Well, let's not where we are. This is clearly an apple tree because it's got nice… got a very good harvest of apples on it. If it didn't, how do you spot an apple tree? Sally: Okay, so yeah, so first of all it is important to note that this is an apple tree, it is a domesticated apple variety of some description, this one, and the reason why it's here at Londonthorpe, though it's not a wild tree, is to help with the sort of engagement with visitors.  So, I think the idea when this wood was planted back in the 90s, was for it to, be very much, to engage people. That people could have a snack as they went around and have that sort of engagement with nature. If you wanted to have a taste of one, although they are a bit higher up [laugh], you'd know that it tastes a lot different to the crab apple that we'll see later on, which is very much… Adam: The crab apples are tiny, aren't they?  Sally: mmmm. Adam: I didn't think they were edible?  Sally: Well, the wild ones are, yeah, I think that they're edible, they're just not very palatable…  Adam: Not very nice, okay.  Sally: So, our ancestors bred them to be different [laugh]. Adam: Okay, alright. So, but anything about the sort of branches or leaves one could look out for. Sally: So, yes, so. A lot of fruit trees are members of the Rosaceae family, so the Rose family. And quite a feature of those is that they tend to grow these sort of short woody spurs from the twig, which then have a spray of leaves all emerging from a kind of cluster. Adam: Right, right. Yep. Sally: Which is one characteristic of an apple tree. The leaves are simple leaves that are oval, and they have some tooth edges as well. So, they're generally kind of slightly glossy and darker on the top than they are on the bottom. Adam: Right. Sally: So, in the spring, obviously you wouldn't have the apples on there. Adam: No. Sally: You'd have the blossom which is a white, with a slight… Adam: It's beautiful isn't it, apple blossom, it's beautiful.  Sally: Yeah. A slight tinge of pink to the petals. Adam: Okay, well, wonderful. And [inaudible] to be honest, I never eat anything in the wild because I'm terrified of killing myself and I don't think I should. Because I'm with an expert, I feel much safer, so is it okay if I grab… Sally: You can grab… Adam: I mean neither of us are particularly tall, but there are a couple in about stretching height here, so hang on a second…  Sally: Yep, go for it. Adam: I'm getting stuck on this already. Sally: I have to say, I definitely agree that if you're not 100% confident, definitely don't eat anything. But this is definitely okay. This is definitely an apple tree. Adam: Oh ooo look I've got one, I've got one. Sally: [laugh] Go on. Adam: Okay. Sally: Not the biggest. [Laughter] Adam: It's not, it's, I haven't had breakfast. And I don't think lunch is on the menu, so this might be it, okay, hold on a second, you'll hear this. [Chomp] Sally: Fresh as anything! Adam: Mmmm [chomping] – I can tell you it's lovely. Mmmm okay that was very good, very good. Okay. So, that's our first tree, lead on and we shall find our second! Sally: Let's go this way So yeah, you're tasting the sweetness that our ancestors bred into it. [Chomping] Adam: Do you know what type of apple this is? Sally: [Laughing] I've no idea.  Adam: No idea.  Sally: No. [laugh] Adam: It's a tasty one that's all. Mmmm very nice! Sally: Okay, we've come to a… Adam: Well hold on hold on a second, I've gotta finish this mouthful. [Laughter] Sally: We'll see lots more, so carry on chewing. Adam: Okay, Let me just finish this before – I'll spit apple all over you otherwise. [Chomping] Sally: So, we're reaching another tree here, that's again one of the really common ones that you'll see in lots of woodlands across the UK. So, this is an ash tree. Adam: Okay. So first, well can you describe it for us? Sally: So, this one's a fairly young tree. It's only maybe seven centimetres in diameter on the trunk. It's got really quite pale bark, which I would say is quite characteristic of ash, a sort of ashen colour.  Adam: Also, as opposed to the apple tree, which is really broad, had lots of leaves. It was really sort of dense-like bush-like.  Sally: Yeah.  Adam: This one, you see the main trunk, which is very thin and only a few branches and a few leaves. It's much more minimalist. Sally: Yes. So, these, so, ash trees are one of the most common trees in this area that you find in hedgerows. When they're mature, they can be, you know, really have a good size trunk on them…  Adam: Right…  Sally: and a real spreading crown. But this one's young, it's not reached that size yet, but the main ID feature at this time of year I'd say is the leaf, which is very characteristic. So, experts describe it as a compound. They're a bit far away, but we can get the idea from here. So, it's a compound leaf because each of those leafstalks has pairs of leaves coming off it.  Adam: Right. One to the left, one to the right. Sally: So those, what look like small leaves, are actually leaflets and the whole thing is a leaf. So each thing is um, each whole leaf emerges from the stem and has a green leafstalk. The whole thing is shed in the autumn and then comes back. Adam: Right, we've gotta go back over this. So, what I think is a leaf, you're telling me is not a leaf, it's a leaflet. Leaflet, have I said that right?  Sally: A leaflet, yep. So, you've got pairs of leaflets. Adam: So actually, there's sort of one, two, three, four… four pairs and one at the end. So, there's eight, nine leaves, what I think of as leaves. You're saying technically that's one leaf actually.   Sally: Exactly. And that's because the whole thing emerges from one bud. And is shed as a whole thing in the autumn. Adam: I see. Now, the ash, obviously one hears a lot about this, ash dieback. So, this tree looks quite healthy though. Sally: Oooer Adam: No, well okay, it doesn't look healthy. Sally: No, if you look at the top you can see the leaves the left on it are only really in a sort of central area. All of these branches which are extending to the edge, to the extremity, of the tree are bare already. Adam: Yes, so it's not healthy. I'm a complete idiot. It doesn't look healthy at all. It looks very sick. Sally: Sadly, the fact that it has dieback is now one of the key, sort of, features to ID ash, which is very sad. [Adam: right] If you see a tree that looks like, you know even in the height of summer, that it's lost quite a lot of its leaves, quite often that will be an ash tree with ash dieback. [Break] Adam: So, you've stopped underneath, this tree, much darker bark. So, what is it? Sally: So, this is a wild cherry. Adam: Okay, so, no cherries on it. So, before you sort of explain the defining feature, can you just describe the tree generally? Sally: Yes. So, it's another member of the rose family. So, leaves are kind of similar to the apple in that their ovals and they sort of emerge in these sprays, but they're a lot more pointed. And the teeth around the edge, I would say, are a lot more defined. And this one's sort of a medium-aged tree, I would say – like many in Londonthorpe as they were planted in about the 90s, so. Um, the bark has these, sort of, horizontal lines across it which are very characteristic of cherry. And as you say, it's a dark colour. This one's not as red as they come – they sometimes look a bit redder than this.  Adam: Right. You can see, I think some of the branches have been cut off, haven't they? And there it looks red. Sally: Yeah, yes, you can see the sort of red tinge to the wood inside there. So, you mentioned it doesn't have any cherries on it – we're a bit late for cherries, ‘cause they're something that's in season in the midsummer. That time of year, and the birds absolutely love them, so they get hoovered up as soon as they're on the tree, basically as soon as they're ripe. And that's reflected in the name, the scientific name of the trees. Prunus – so that means they're part of the plum and cherry family – and then avium is the species name, obviously referring to birds there – so how much they love the cherries. Adam: So, so it's a good thing for the wildlife. Sally: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Adam: Very nice. And then, so the leaves now. So, I know that you were previously telling me what I thought was a leaf was a leaflet – these, each individual one here is a leaf? Sally: Yeah, these are simple leaves. So, yeah as you'd expect the stalk joins directly to the woody stem and the whole leaf beyond that is one single leaf.  Adam: So, the definition of a leaf is something that, sort of, sprouts from a bud? [Sally: Yes, yeah] So each leaf will come from its own individual bud on this cherry. Brilliant! Sally: Let's head on. [laugh] [Walking, crunching of twigs under foot]  Sally: We're coming up to the crab apple here. Adam: Oh, oh, ok. So, this is a tree loaded with fruit – these tiny, tiny, mini apples. So, this is, this is [Sally: this is a crab apple] a crab apple.  Sally: So, if you look at the leaves again, they're very similar to the apple tree that we saw before, not much difference in the leaf. Pale on the underside, and glossy on the top [Adam: right] and arising in these little sprigs, but the apples are tiny. Um, and if we try one [laughter] they're… I'll try one, I'll take one for the team.  Adam: yeah, you take one for the team [laughs]  Sally: and you'll tell by my reaction… Adam: Oh okay, go on then… [Laughter, inaudible]  Adam: It's a lifetime of going ‘never eat anything', well together. Sally: Together. Adam and Sally: Okay. One, two, three… [Crunch, chomping] Adam: Urgh, not keen on, I dunno its unusual.  Sally: It's the aftertaste.  Adam: It's unusual. It… hmmm.  Sally: It gets more sour, I think, the more you chew it.  Adam: It does. It does a bit.  Sally: Not as nice as the one that has been bred.  Adam: It's not as nice. It's a bit odd in a sense that no one ever sells crab apples. You know, I mean. Sally: Yeah. You can make this jelly.  Adam: crab apple jelly, I've heard of that.  Sally: Anything tastes nice when you bung a load of sugar on top.  Adam: Yes, that's true, that's true. [Laughter] Adam: [joking] You could just eat the leaves, take the leaves and chuck a load of sugar on, I don't know why. Now, I think I've had my fill… Sally: Strangely morish.  Adam: No, not for me. I'll stay with my apple. [Laughter] Sally: They've definitely got a bitter sour kick, haven't they?  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sally: Not as sweet.  Adam: Is it okay if I just throw this into the verge for the animals?  Sally: There's lots of windfall ones down there anyway.  Adam: I can see. Yeah, you don't have a cup of tea to take away the taste, do you? [Laughter] No, no. So, there we are.  Sally: So, that was to demonstrate the difference between a domestic apple and the crab apple. Which of course, is one of the ancestors of the domestic apple. Adam: Is it? [Laugh] I've been offered a polo to take away some of the taste. Oh, go on, go on, I will have one. I said no, I will have one. That's very kind, thank you. [Unwrapping a polo, laughter] [Walking] Adam: Right, we've come up to a very different looking one, which has got very particular leaves and tiny little red berries. I know that you don't like to reveal the tree at the beginning because we love the drama of it! Go on then, you talk me through this tree.  Sally: Okay, so this one's hawthorn. [Adam: Ahh right.] A common component of hedgerows up and down the country. Also known as quickthorn, sometimes, because it does grow very quickly. This shows an example of how they can grow if they're not kept trim into a hedgerow. So yes, there's that shrubby growth habit, even though it's not being cut. And the leaves are very small. Yet another member of the rose family and the leaves are, we describe as lobed, so it has these, sort of, sticking out sections.  Adam: They're much smaller. How ignorant a statement is it that there's a similarity between this and an oak leaf?  Sally: Yeah, not too ignorant.  Adam: Not too ignorant.  Sally: Not too ignorant because they're both lobed, both lobed leaves, but the size is very different. Adam: This is much smaller. Sally: Um. So lovely autumn colour as you can see, they're going yellow in colour. So, if you're thinking about managing a hedgerow for wildlife. You want to make sure that the tree is allowed to produce its flowers and then later in the year produce berries. And hawthorn and another hedgerow species in the UK, like blackthorn, which we might see some later, they produce their flowers only on the previous year's growth of wood. Which means if they're flailed annually – every year that new bit of growth gets chopped back to where it was at the beginning of the year, and therefore it's never allowed to flower and therefore set berries. So, the pollinators suffer from that, and the birds suffer because they don't have the berries. The berries are a really important winter food. Adam: So, it's important actually, from a nature point of view, for this to be a bit untidy. If you keep it too manicured, it'll never flower, it will never have berries. Sally: Yeah, and you can. The advice is that hedgerows – if you cut them every three years, but you don't have to let them go out of control, you can cut one side one year, and then the top and then the next side, so that every year there's always some availability for wildlife. Adam: Okay that's a good idea. [Voices] Adam: I think there's a dog called Ian that's got lost [Laughter]. So, if you've just heard that? Come here, Ian. Either it's a wayward husband or a wayward dog [Laughter]. Either of which we're going to pass them shortly… Ian, Ian looks like a dog! What an unusual name for a dog… Hello Ian! [Laughter] No, Ian's not interested, he's off!  [Laughter, voices, walking] Adam: So, we've made another stop. So again, very different look. So, do you want to describe it before we get to what it is? Sally: Okay, yeah, this might be one. This is a very common one. I'd say this is in the top two, top three. Adam: It's so embarrassing, I don't even know what it is.  Sally: You haven't got a clue, no? Adam: I'm an idiot, so no… Sally: So, if I if I say it's silver does that give you an idea? Adam: Birch! Sally: It's a silver birch! Adam: Aww, yes, that helps me along, if only you were there during my O levels. [Laughter] Adam: So yes, so it's got a very, it's got this very slender, it's got one very small, sort of, main trunk, which is silver. It's got, are they called catskills?  Sally: Catkins!  Adam: Catkins! Sorry! Catkins, how would you describe these then? Sally: Yeah, I guess it's like a little sausage shape hanging down. The ones that we're looking at are from the previous year so they're very, sort of, dried up. Adam: And these are the seeds are they or… Sally: Yes, yes. So, they're the flowering part. In the spring they look, sort of, yellow and fresh. They release their pollen, so we've got a little gust of wind to demonstrate how the seeds disperse, and how the pollen is dispersed as well in this species. So, a wood that is dominated by a lot of young, densely populated birch trees - you can kind of get the idea that's probably a naturally regenerated woodland because it's a good pioneer at covering new ground. Adam: And again, does it fruit or anything? Is it good for wildlife if there's something for birds and wildlife to eat off this? Sally: It's a really popular one with blue tits because… not because of the fruit, but because it's really popular with insects. So, after oak, birch supports lots and lots of different insect species. Oak supports the most, and ash as well, and birch is definitely up there. Adam: But why? Why is it? Why is it so supportive if there…? I mean, if there's no fruit on the thing? Surely something like cherry or apple – that would support most because it's easy to eat? Sally: Yeah. Well, the insects are after the leaves and the sap and that sort of thing. So like aphids, caterpillars… [Adam: They like this.] So, for the birds that eat aphids, caterpillars – like blue tits – especially in the spring when they're feeding their chicks it's a really important species. Adam: Okay, onward. [Walking] Sally: Hello again, so you can't see a huge amount of acorns on this one. Adam: Oh well, you've given it away! You always like keeping us in suspense, but I know therefore we are looking at an oak. So, the oak leaf is, sort of, our national symbol. I mean it's a symbol of Woodland Trust anyway. [Sally: Exactly] You might as well describe them though, for those that don't know much about the oak.  Sally: So, in this part of the country, we're in the East Midlands, you're likely to see English oak, and that's characterised by a leaf, which goes all the way up to the woody stem. There isn't any exposed bare leafstalk in between. And on the acorns – the acorn comes with a stem. Which is, that is the peduncle. Hence peduncular oak. [Laughter] Adam: That just reminded me of my French and German lessons. I'm feeling a bit lost, but okay, but lots of other people won't be lost.  [Walking] Adam: So, we've come across a clump of trees that are very similar. Ah, they've all got little red berries on. An erm, I'm trying to see. Ah, lovely little leaves. Now! Hold on a second. Hold on a second here, see I am already learning. I would say this was ten leaves, but actually, this is one leaf, and these are leaflets, aren't they?  Sally: Indeed, yep, you got it!  Adam: I've jumped to the top of the class! Okay, so that's very good. So, there's a, there's a stem leading from the main woody, woody branch and on that has a little collection of little leaves, which are called leaflets. So what tree is this? Sally: So, as you really correctly described that it's very similar in leaf shape to the ash that we saw before. Which gives rise to one of the common names of this species, which is mountain ash, sometimes people describe it. But the most commonly used name is rowan. [Adam: Right] So, it's a small tree. As we looking around here, it's kind of, it's really standing out as part of the understory here, under these taller ash and birch trees, because they've all gone this really lovely orangey russet colour in their autumn glory. [Inaudible] Adam: Yes, they're turning quicker than the other trees, aren't they?  Sally: Mmm. And their really bright berries stand out as well in these lovely clusters of red… Adam: I've seen, I've seen rowans that looks a lot nicer. These look a bit bedraggled. Is that part of this particular tree or is that the nature of the rowan?  Sally: I think it's because of the situation they've grown in here. They're under quite a bit of shade under other trees. Adam: So, we've got these leaves, they have little red berries on them and the main trunk thin, and well here, it's sort of, a rusty green colour. Is that fairly typical? Sally: Mmm. Quite a pale, sort of, colour, and quite smooth. Erm but, they never grow into a big tree I would say, is one of the key features of them.  Adam: And er, good for nature? Sally: Yeah, so we can see all the berries here, loved by blackbirds. They are quite a common tree for people to plant in their garden coz they don't grow too big. So yeah, lovely for attracting the birds.  Adam: Very good. [Gap] OK, so we've come to another oak – very low. Now, this is interesting, isn't it? So, you can tell it's an oak – very big substantial leaves.  Sally: Mmm, it looks very healthy, doesn't it?  Adam: It does, except what's odd is that all the branches start really low down. [Sally: yeah] It feels like, I dunno, has man got involved here, so has it been cut back? This is odd! Sally: Yeah, well, it's a really interesting point that you make because it shows how the situation that tree is growing in really affects its growth habit. So, the oak that we saw before was growing in woodland in dense situation with other trees in. Adam: So, you have four, five foot at least of tree trunk before you got any branches?  Sally: Yep.  Adam: This branch starts about ten centimetres off the ground. Sally: Yeah. So, because that one that we saw before was growing in the woodlands. It's grown competing for light. So, it's put all its energy into growing upwards – tall and thin – which is good for timber. That's what a forester would appreciate in a tree.  Adam: This has grown out. Sally: Whereas this one, because it's in an open space, it's had space to spread its wings as it were, to spread its branches out and to really create this kind of bushy habit. And although this is, this one's quite young, this is almost, I would describe it as like a proto-ancient tree. It could, this one has the potential because it's grown in this open situation and with a real sort of broad base, stocky, stout growth habit, it has the potential to get a lot older.  Adam: This is gonna be very stable.  Sally: Yeah. Adam: It's also a fun tree, to go… I mean I could climb to the top of this tree, almost… just, because it's about five foot high. [Laughter] This is sort of fun. I could imagine kids hiding in there, really lovely.  So, I didn't realise, so, if you happen to be planting trees, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a garden where you can plant trees, and you wanted this sort of thing, you'd put it in by itself. And it'd grow nice and short, big round and lots of bushy sort of stuff, because it's not competing, it's putting its energy elsewhere. Sally: That's it. It's, sort of, characteristic of a type of habitat that we call wood pasture, which is often… you'll see at stately homes like in the nearby Belton estate, you get a scattered collection of usually oak trees in an open grazed landscape, and they're… usually, they're very old because they were planted or established a long time ago. And because they grow in the open area, they've withstood the test of time, so if they're tall and spindly they get blown over a lot more easily. But they last a lot longer when they're grown in the open.  Adam: Fantastic, okay, I'll… I'm just going to take a photo of this as well. [Gap] There we are. You've gotta stand there so I've got something to scale [laughter]. Otherwise, it could be thirty foot high! There we are, there we are, got it. [Laughter] [Pause] So, loads of trees, you've stopped by another one, which is very, I mean it's very low. I can't even see the trunk here because of the leaves. But it also stretches quite high, very bush-like, quite large leaves. I'll, I'll let you do the rest [laugh]. Sally: Mmm, do you have any clue on it? Adam: It's got these things that I'll mispronounce, I'm going to mispronounce again. Catkills?  Sally: Catkins.  Adam: Catkins. So, these are the seeds, but these are much prettier. Very small, delicate ones, umm err, there are individual quite large hand-shaped leaves. [Sally: They're broad.] Yes broad leaves.  Sally: Shall I put you out of your misery? Adam: Yeah, go on then… [laughter] Sally: It's hazel, this one [Adam: Right] So, you're very correct to observe that it's growing in, again, a shrublike habit. Adam: That's normal… that's not just because of the way this tree is?  Sally: Yeah, they have the habit of growing in that, kind of, [Adam: Very low down] shape. They're quite often coppiced and if you go to an ancient woodland the traditional management practice of managing a woodland would be coppicing the hazel.  Adam: Don't you get hazel that you make fences out of and stuff? Sally: Yes. Yeah, that's it! Adam: Is it very bendy, the wood?  Sally: Yes so, the young… the reason why they would coppice it is to get the regrowth that sprouts back. It's then in narrow, sort of, poles [Adam: Right] and has that flexible property. Um, yeah, so also good for hazelnuts – your Ferrero Rocher [laugh]. I don't know if we are allowed to advertise on this [laugh].  Adam: Yes, that's fine… The ambassador likes them, and other nut-based chocolates are available, I suppose we should say. Okay no hazelnuts at the moment, too early for that, or too late?  Sally: I would say that it already is probably, you have to look on the bottom of the branches… Adam: It's the right time but someone has nicked them all.  Sally: It's the right time but it could be the squirrels.  Adam: The squirrels have been here before us.  Sally: Yeah! Grey squirrels will take them even before they are ripe. They will take them when they are still green. So, it's quite often a bit of a challenge to actually find any nuts, but if you do, they're in a little cluster, usually of three and they have a kind of, little frilly outer case to them and then a hazelnut, well you know what a hazelnut looks like?  Adam: I do know what a hazelnut looks like! Well look, I think you promised me ten trees, but we're just not going to have time to do them all. So, we might have to do another podcast. We won't get another one in this year. We'll have to wait until the next leaf season.  Sally: We could do a winter, a spring… Adam: I'd have to say I'd love to do a winter one, but aren't you just looking at bare trunks? Sally: Winter is, yeah, next level up [laugh]. Adam: Could you identify the trees in winter?  Sally: Yeah, [inaudible] Adam: Ah you see now; you see you shouldn't have said that! [Laughter] You shouldn't have said it, because I will come back then, and we'll see how good you are at identifying completely bare trees. I'd think that'd be quite an interesting thing to do. Sally: I'd have to brush up. There are keys and guide that can help you do it. Adam: Well, and you say that, and of course the Woodland Trust has its own tree identifier app [Sally: it does] and there are others out there, there are books as well, you can use… as well as the blog that goes along with this – photos will be on there!  Sally: In fact, um, if you become a member of the Woodland Trust, you get a free little swatch book, which is like a pocket guide with the most common trees that you are likely to see on there, so you'll be always armed, always armed! Adam: Do you know I'm not sure I got that? Maybe, I don't know! An outrage! [Laughter] I probably got it and lost it is the truth! Probably got it and lost it. [Laughter] Anyway, well look…  Sally: Perhaps we'll try and find you a new one.  Adam: Okay, that will be very kind. Okay good, so look I have learned a properly enormous amount, I'm not just saying this, a properly enormous amount today. I'm gonna listen back to what you say and make some notes as well, because I don't know, I don't have a professional interest in this at all, but I think it's quite nice not to wander around ignorantly, and just go ‘oh that's a hazelnut, that's ash and there were lots of things you were saying about why that's good for birds'. And it's, I mean your background is science and you work for the Woodland Trust, but how difficult is it for people to get a working knowledge of this stuff?  Sally: I don't think it's too difficult to get to a point where you feel familiar with your local collection of trees that you see on a regular basis in your landscape and I think even if you take from this session that we've done – if you take a couple more that you knew before that's getting you towards know a higher proportion of them and then you'll know which ones you can rule out if you're looking at something different, erm so yeah I think it's very doable, and I agree that it makes it a lot more… your walks, they have an extra layer of meaning and you can read the landscape a bit more.  Adam: [inaudible] And of course, I mean if you are new to the Woodland Trust or not a member, new to woods, and you want to find a woodland near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, which is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, and you can find a wood. Thank you very much, it's been a fantastic, fantastic day out.  Sally: You're very welcome, Adam I'm pleased you've learned something.  Adam: Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating.  And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

About AdamAdam is an independent cloud consultant that helps startups build products on AWS. He's also the host of AWS FM, a podcast with guests from around the AWS community, and an AWS DevTools Hero.Adam is passionate about open source and has made a handful of contributions to the AWS CDK over the years. In 2020 he created Ness, an open source CLI tool for deploying web sites and apps to AWS.Previously, Adam co-founded StatMuse—a Disney backed startup building technology that answers sports questions—and served as CTO for five years. He lives in Nixa, Missouri, with his wife and two children.Links Referenced: 17 Ways to Run Containers On AWS: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/the-17-ways-to-run-containers-on-aws/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/aeduhm Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/adamelmore TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while, I encounter someone in the wild that… well, I'll just be direct, makes me feel a little bit uneasy, almost like someone's walking over my grave. And I think I've finally figured out elements of what that is. It feels sometimes like I run into people—ideally not while driving—who are trying to occupy sort of the same space in the universe, and I never quite know how to react to that.Today's guest is just one such person. Adam Elmore is an independent AWS consultant, has been all over the Twitters for a while, recently started live streaming basically his every waking moment because he is just that interesting. Adam, thank you for suffering my slings and arrows—Adam: [laugh].Corey: —and agreeing to chat with me today.Adam: I would say first of all, you don't need to be worried about anyone walking over your grave. [laugh]. That was very flattering.Corey: No, honestly, I have big enterprise companies looking to put me in my grave, but that's a separate threat model. We're good on that, for now.Adam: [laugh]. I got to set myself up here to—I'm just going to laugh a lot, and your editor or somebody's going to have to deal with that. And maybe the audience will see—[laugh].Corey: Hey, I prefer that as opposed to talking to people who have absolutely no sense of humor of which they are aware. Awesome, I have a list of companies that they should apply for immediately. So, when I say that we're trying to occupy elements of the same space in the universe, let me talk a little bit about what I mean by that. You are independent as a consultant, which is how I started this whole nonsense, and then I started gathering a company around me almost accidentally. You are an AWS Dev Tools Hero, whereas I am an AWS community villain, which is kind of a polar opposite slash anti-hero approach, and it's self-granted in my case. How did you stumble into the universe of AWS? You just realized one day you were too happy and what can you do to make yourself miserable, and this was the answer, or what?Adam: Yeah, I guess. So. I mean, I've been a software developer for 15 years, like, my whole career, that's kind of what I've done. And at some point, I started a startup called StatMuse. And I was able, as sort of a co-founder there, with venture backing, like, I was able to just kind of play with the cloud.And we deployed everything on AWS, so that was—like, I was there five years; it was sort of five years of running this, I would call it like a Digital Media Studio. Like, we built technology, but we did lots of experiments, so it felt like playing on AWS. Because we built kind of weird one-offs, these digital experiences for various organizations. The Hall of Fame was one of them. We did, like, a, like, a 3-D Talking bust of John Madden, so it was like all kinds of weird technology involved.But that was sort of five years of, I guess, spending venture money [laugh] to play on AWS. And some of that was Google money; I guess I never thought about that, but Google was an investor in StatMuse. [laugh]. Yeah, so we sort of like—I ran that for five years and was able to learn just a lot of AWS stuff that really excited me. I guess, coming from normal web development stuff, it was exciting just how much leverage you have with AWS, so I sort of dove in pretty hard. And then yeah, when I left StatMuse in 2019 I've just been, I guess, going even harder into that direction. I just really enjoy it.Corey: My first real exposure to AWS was at a company where the CTO was a, I guess we'll call him an extraordinarily early cloud evangelist. I was there as a contractor, and he was super excited and would tweet nonsensical things like, “I'm never going to rack a server ever again.” And I was a grumpy sysadmin type; I came from the ops world where anything that is new shouldn't be treated with disdain and suspicion because once you've been a sysadmin for 20 minutes, you've been there long enough to see today's shiny new shit become tomorrow's legacy garbage that you're stuck supporting. So, “Oh, great. What now?”I was very down on Cloud in those days and I encountered it with increasing frequency as I stumbled my way through my career. And at the end of 2016, I wound up deciding to go out independent and fix… well, what problems am I good at fixing that I can articulate in a sentence, and well, I'd gotten surprised by AWS bills from time to time—fortunately with someone else's money; the best kind of mistake to make—and well I know a few things. Let's get really into it. In time, I came to learn that cost and architecture the same thing in cloud, and now I don't know how the hell to describe myself. Other people love to describe me, usually with varying forms of profanity, but here we are. It really turns into the idea of forging something of your own path. And you've absolutely been doing that for at least the last three years as you become someone who's increasingly well known and simultaneously harder to describe.Adam: Yeah, I would say if you figure it out, if you know how to describe me, I would love to know because just coming up with the title—for this episode you needed, like, my title, I don't know what my title is. I'm also—like, we talked about independent, so nobody sort of gives me a title. I would love to just receive one if you think of one, [laugh] if anyone listening thinks of one… it's increasingly hard to, sort of like, even decide what I care most about. I know I need to, like, probably niche down, I feel like you've kind of niched into the billing stuff. I can't just be like, “I'm an AWS guy,” because AWS is so big. But yeah, I have no idea.Corey: Anyone who claims, “Oh, I'm an expert in AWS,” is lying or trying to sell something.Adam: [laugh]. Exactly.Corey: I love that. It's, “Really? I have some questions to establish that for you.” As far as naming what it is, you do, first piece of advice, never ever, ever, ever listen to someone who works at AWS; those people are awful at naming things, as evidenced by basically every service they've ever launched. But you are actually fairly close to being an AWS expert. You did a six-week speed-run through every certification that they offer and that is nothing short of astonishing. How'd it come about?Adam: It's a unique intersection of skills that I think I have. And I'm not very self-aware, I don't know all my strengths and weaknesses and I struggle to sort of nail those down, but I think one of my strengths is just ability to, like, consume information, I guess at a high volume. So, I'm like an auditory learner; I can listen to content really fast and sort of retain enough. And then I think the other skill I have is just I'm good at tests. I've always said that, like, going back to school, like, high school, I always felt like I was really good at multiple-choice tests. I don't know if that's a skill or some kind of innate talent.But I think those two things combined, and then, like, eight years of building on AWS, and that sort of frames how I was able to take all that on. And I don't know that I really set out thinking I will do it in six weeks. I took the first few and then did them pretty fast and thought, “I wonder how quickly I could do all of them.” And I just kind of at that point, it became this sort of goal. I have to take on certain challenges occasionally that just sound fun for no reason other than they sound fun and that was kind of the thing for those six weeks. [laugh].Corey: I have two certifications: Cloud Practitioner and the SysOps Administrator Associate. Those were interesting.Adam: You took the new one, right? The new SysOps with the labs and stuff I'd love to hear about that.Corey: I did, back when it was in beta. That was a really interesting experience and I'll definitely get to that, but I wound up, for example, getting a question wrong in the Cloud Practitioner exam four years ago or so, when it was, “How long does it take to restore an RDS instance from backup?” And I gave the honest answer instead of the by-the-book, correct answer. That's part of the problem is that I've been doing this stuff too long and I know how these things break and what the real world looks like. Certifications are also very much a snapshot at a point in time.Because I write the Last Week in AWS newsletter, I'm generally up-to-the-minute on what has changed, and things that were not possible yesterday, suddenly are possible today, so I need to know when was this certification launched. Oh, it was in early 2021. Yeah, I needed to be a lot more specific; which week? And then people look at me very strangely and here we are.The Systems Administrator Certification was interesting because this is the first one, to my knowledge, where they started doing a live lab as a—Adam: Yeah.Corey: Component of this. And I don't think it's a breach of the NDA to point out that one of the exams was, “Great. Configure CloudWatch out of the box to do this thing that it's supposed to do out of the box.” And I've got to say that making the service do what it's supposed to do with no caveats is probably the sickest shade I've ever seen anyone throw at AWS, like, configuring the service is so bad that it is going to be our test to prove you know what you're doing. That is amazing.Adam: [laugh]. Yeah, I don't have any shade through I'm not as good with the, like, ability to come off, like, witty and kind while still criticizing things. So, I generally just try not to because I'm bad at it. [laugh].Corey: It's why I generally advise people don't try, in seriousness. It's not that people can't be clever; it's that the failure mode of clever is ‘asshole' and I'm not a big fan of making people feel worse based upon the things that I say and do. It's occasionally I wind up getting yelled at by Amazonians saying that the people who built a service didn't feel great about something I said, and my instinctive immediate reaction is, “Oh, shit, that wasn't my intention. How did I screw this up?” Given a bit of time, I realized that well hang on a minute because I'm not—they're not my target audience. I'm trying to explain this to other customers.And, on some level, if you're going to charge tens of millions of dollars a month for a service or more, maybe make a better one, not for nothing. So, I see both sides of it. I'm not intentionally trying to cause pain, but I'm also not out here insulting people individually. Like, sometimes people make bad decisions, sometimes individually, sometimes in a group. And then we have a service name we have to live with, and all right, I guess I'm going to make fun of that forever. It's fun that keeps it engaging for me because otherwise, it's boring.Adam: No, I hear you. No, and somebody's got to do it. I'm glad you do it and do it so well because, I mean, you got to keep them honest. Like, that's the thing. Keep AWS in check.Corey: Something that I went through somewhat recently was a bit of an awakening. I have no problem revisiting old opinions and discovering that huh, I no longer agree with it; it's time to evolve that opinion. The CDK specifically was one of those where I looked at it and thought this thing looks a little hokey. So, I started using it in Python and sure enough, the experience was garbage. So cool, the CDK is a piece of crap. There we go. My job is easy.I was convinced to take a second look at it via TypeScript, a language I do not know and did not have any previous real experience with. So, I spent a few days just powering through it, and now I'm a convert. I think it's amazing. It is my default go-to for building AWS infrastructure. And all it took was a little bit of poking and prodding to get me to change my mind on that. You've taken it to another level and you started actively contributing to the AWS CDK. What was your journey with that, honestly, remarkable piece of software?Adam: Yeah, so I started contributing to CDK when I was actually doing a lot of Python development. So, I worked with a company that was doing—there was a Python shop. So actually, the first thing I contributed was a Python function construct, which is sort of the equivalent of the Node.js function construct, which like, you can just basically point at a TypeScript file and it transpiles it, bundles it, and does all that, right? So, it makes it easy to deploy TypeScript as a Lambda function.Well, I mean, it ends up being a JavaScript Lambda function, but anyway, that was the Python function construct. And then I sort of got really into it. So, I got pretty hooked on using the CDK in every place that I could. I'm a huge fan, and I do primarily write in TypeScript these days. I love being able to write TypeScript front-end and back, so built a lot of, like, Next.JS front-ends, and then I'm building back-ends with CDK TypeScript.Yeah, I've had, like, a lot of conversations about CDK. I think there's definitely a group that's sort of, against the CDK, if you're thinking in terms of, like, beginners. And I do see where, for people who aren't as familiar with AWS, or maybe this is their entry point into cloud development, it does a lot of things that maybe you're not aware of that, you know, you're now kind of responsible for. So, it's deploying—like, it makes it really easy to write, like, three lines of TypeScript that stand up an entire VPC with all this configuration and Managed NAT Gateways and [laugh] everything else. And you may not be aware of all the things you just stood up.So, CloudFormation maybe is a little more—sort of gives you that better visibility into what you're creating. So, I've definitely seen that pushback. But I think for people who really, like, have built a lot of applications on AWS, I think the CDK is just such a time-saver. I mean, I spend so much less time building the same things in the CDK versus CloudFormation. I'm a big fan.Corey: For me, I've learned enough about JavaScript to be dangerous and it seems like TypeScript is more or less trying to automate a bunch of people's jobs away, which is basically, from I can tell, their job is to go on the internet and complain about someone's JavaScript. So great, that that's really all it does is it complains, “Oh, this ambiguous. You should be more specific about it.” And great. Awesome. I still haven't gotten into scenarios where I've been caught out by typing issues, and very often I find that it just feels like sheer bloodymindedness, but I smile, nod, bend the knee and life goes on.Adam: [laugh]. When you've got a project that's, like, I don't know, a few months old—or better, a few years old—and you need to do, like, major refactoring, that's when TypeScript really saves you just a ton of time. Like, when you can make a change in a type or in actual implementation stuff and then see the ripple effects and then sort of go around the codebase and fix those things, it's just a lot easier than doing it in JavaScript and discovering stuff at runtime. So, I'm a big TypeScript fan. I don't know where it's all headed. I know there's people that are not fans of, like, transpiling your Lambda functions, for instance. Like, why not just ship good JavaScript? And I get that case, too. Yeah, but I've definitely—I felt the productivity boost, I guess—if that's the thing—from TypeScript.Corey: For me, I'm still at a point where I'm learning the edges of where things start and where they stop. But one of the big changes I made was that I finally, after 15 years, gave up my beloved Vim as my editor for this and started using VS Code. Because the reasons that I originally went with Vi were understandable when you realize what I was. I'm always going to be remoting into network gear or random—on maintained Unix boxes. Vi is going to be everywhere on everything and that's fine.Yeah, I don't do that anymore, and increasingly, I find that everything I'm writing is local. It is not something that is tied to a remote thing that I need to login and edit by hand. At that point, we are in disaster area. And suddenly it's nice. I mean things like tab completion, where it just winds up completing the rest of the variable name or, once you enable Copilot and absolutely not CodeWhisperer yet, it winds up you tab complete your entire application. Why not? It's just outsourcing it to Stack Overflow without that pesky copy and paste step.Adam: Yeah, I don't know how in the weeds you want to get on your p—I don't know, in terms of technical stuff, but Copilot both blows me away—there are days where it autocompletes something that I just, I can't fathom how—it pulled in not just, like, the patterns that it found, obviously, in training, but, like, the context in the file I'm working and sort of figured out what I was trying to do. Sometimes it blows me away. A lot of times, though, it frustrates me because of TypeScript. Like, I'm used to Typescript and types saving me from typing a lot. Like, I can tab-complete stuff because I have good types defined, right, or it's just inferred from the libraries I'm using.It's tough though when GitHub is fighting with TypeScript and VS Code. But it's funny that you came from Vim and you now live in VS Code. I really am trying to move from VS Code to, like, the Vim world, mostly because of Twitch streamers that blow my mind with what they can do in Vim [laugh] and how fast they can move. I do—every time I move my hand, like, over to the arrow keys, I feel a little sad and I wish I just did Vim.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lambda Cloud. They offer GPU instances with pricing that's not only scads better than other cloud providers, but is also accessible and transparent. Also, check this out, they get a lot more granular in terms of what's available. AWS offers NVIDIA A100 GPUs on instances that only come in one size and cost $32/hour. Lambda offers instances that offer those GPUs as single card instances for $1.10/hour. That's 73% less per GPU. That doesn't require any long term commitments or predicting what your usage is gonna look like years down the road. So if you need GPUs, check out Lambda. In beta, they're offering 10TB of free storage and, this is key, data ingress and egress are both free. Check them out at lambdalabs.com/cloud. That's l-a-m-b-d-a-l-a-b-s.com/cloud.Corey: There are people who have just made it into an entire lifestyle, on some level. And I'm fair to middling; I've known people who are dark wizards at it. In practice, I found that my productivity was never constrained by how quickly I can type. It's one of those things where it's, I actually want to stop and have my brain catch up sometimes, believe it or not, for those who follow me on Twitter. It's the idea of wanting to make sure that I am able to intelligently and rationally wrap my head around what it is I'm doing.And okay, just type out a whole bunch of boilerplate is, like, the least valuable use of anything and that is where I find things like Copilot working super well, where I, if I'm doing CloudFormation, for example, the fact that it tab-completes all the necessary attributes and can go back and change them or whatnot, that's an enormous time saver. Same story with the CDK, although with some constructs, it doesn't quite understand which ones get certain values to it. And I really liked the idea behind it. I think this is in some ways, the future of IDEs, to a point.Adam: Oh, for sure. I think, like, the case, you call that with CloudFormation, you don't have really typeahead in VS Code, at least I'm not using anything. Maybe there are extensions that give you that in VS Code. But to have Copilot fill in required prompts on a CloudFormation template, that's a lifesaver. Because I just, every time I write CloudFormation, I've just got the docs up and I'm copying stuff I've done before or whatever; like, to save that time it's huge. But CodeWhisperer, not so much? Is it not, I guess, up to snuff? I haven't seen it or played with it at all.Corey: It's still very early days and it hasn't had exposure outside of Amazonian codebases to my understanding, so it's, like, “Learn to code like an Amazonian.” And you can fill in your own joke here on that one. I imagine it's like—isn't that—aren't they primarily a Java shop, for one? And all right. It turns out most of my code doesn't need to operate the way that there's does.Adam: I didn't know that they were training it just internally. Like, I'm assuming Copilot is trained on, like, Stack Overflow or something, right? Or just all of GitHub, I guess.Corey: And GitHub and a bunch of other things, and people are yelling at them for it, and I haven't been tracking that. But honestly, the CodeWhisperer announcement taught me things about Copilot, which is weird, which tells me that none of these companies are great at explaining this. Like I can just write a comment in this of, “Add an S3 bucket,” and then Copilot will tab-complete the entirety of adding an S3 bucket, usually even secure, which is awesome. They also fix the early Copilot teething problems of tab-completing people's AWS API credentials. You know, the—yeah, they've fixed a lot of that, thankfully.Adam: Yeah.Corey: But it's still one of those neat things that you can just basically start—it gets a little bit closer to describe what you want the application to do and then it'll automatically write it for you on the back-end. Sure, sometimes it makes naive decisions that do not bear out, but again, it's still early days. I'm optimistic.Adam: Yeah, that reminds me of, like, the, I mean, the serverless cloud, so serverless framework folks, like, what they're doing where they're sort of inferring your infrastructure based on you just write an app and it sort of creates the infrastructure as code for you, or just sort of infers it all from your code. So, if you start using a bucket, it'll create a bucket for that. That definitely seems to be a movement as well, where just do less as a developer [laugh] seems to be the theme.Corey: Yeah, just move up the stack. We see this time and time again. I mean, look at the—I use this analogy from time to time from the sysadmin world, but in the late-90s, if you wanted to build a web server, you needed a spare week and an intimate knowledge of GCC compiler flags. In time, it became oh, great, now it's rpm install, then yum install, then ensure present with something like Puppet, and then Docker has it, and now it's just a checkbox on the S3 page, and you're running a static site. Things don't get harder with time, and I don't think that as a developer, your time is best spent writing by hand the proper syntax for a for loop or whatnot.It's not the differentiated value. Talk to me instead about what you want that thing to do. That was my big problem with Lambda when it first came out and I spent two weeks writing my first Lambda function—because I'm bad at programming—where I had to learn the exact format of expected for input and output, and now any Lambda function I write takes me a couple of minutes to write because I'm also bad at programming and don't know what tests are.Adam: [laugh]. Tests are overrated, I don't spend a lot of time writing t—I mean, I do a lot of stuff alone and I do a lot of stuff for myself, so in those contexts, I'm not writing tests if I'm being honest. I stream now and everyone on the stream is constantly asking, “Where are the tests?” Like, there are no tests. I'm sorry. [laugh]. Was someone else's stream.Corey: Oh yeah, it used to be though, that you had to be a little sneakier to have other people do work for you. Copilot makes it easier and presumably CodeWhisperer will, too. Used to be that if AWS launched new service and I didn't know how to configure it, all I would do is restrict a role down to only being able to work with that service, attach that to a user and then just drop the credentials on Twitter or GitHub. And I waited 20 minutes and I came back and sure enough, someone configured it and was already up and mining Bitcoin. So, turn that off, take what they built, and off the production with it. Problem solved. Oh, and rotate those credentials, unless you enjoy pain. Problem solved. The end. And I don't know if it's a best practice, but it sure was effective.Adam: Yeah, that would do it. Well, they're just like scanners now, right, like they're just scanning GitHub public repos for any credentials that are leaked like that, and they're available within seconds. You can literally, like, push a public repo with credentials and it is being [laugh] used within minutes. It's nuts.Corey: GitHub has some automatic back channel thing—I believe; I haven't done an experiment lately, but I believe that AWS will intentionally shoot down the credential as soon as it gets reported, which is kind of amazing. I really should do some more experiments with it just to see how disastrous this can get.Adam: Yeah. No, I'd be curious. Please let me know. I guess you'll tweet about it so I'll see it.Corey: Can I borrow your account for a few minutes?Adam: Yeah. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, it's fun. Now, the secret to my 17 Ways to Run Containers On AWS is in almost every case, those containers can be crypto miners, so it's not just about having too many services do the same thing; it's the attack surface continues to grow and expand in the fullness of time. I'm not saying this is right or wrong; it is what it is, but it's also something that I think people have an understated appreciation for.Let's change topic a little bit. Something you've been doing lately and talking about is the idea of building a course on AWS. You're clearly capable of doing the engineering work. That's not in question. You've been a successful consultant for years, which tells me you also know how to deliver software that meets customer requirements, as opposed to, “Well, the spec was shitty, but I wrote it anyway,” because you don't last long as a consultant if you enjoy being able to afford to eat if that's the direction you go in. Now, you're drifting toward becoming a teacher. Tell me about that. First, what makes you think that's something you're good at?Adam: So, I don't know. I don't know that I'm good at it and I guess I'll find out. I've been streaming, like, on Twitch just my work days, and that's been early signs that I think I'm okay at it, at least. I think it's very different, obviously, like, a self-paced course are going to be very different from streaming for hours, so there's a lot more editing and thoughtfulness involved, but I do think, like, I've always wanted to teach. So, even before I got into technology—I was pretty late into technology; it was after high school. Like back in high school, I always thought I wanted to be a professor.I just enjoyed, I guess the idea of presenting ideas in ways that people understood. And I live in an area—so I live in the Ozarks, it's not a very tech literate area. It became, like, this thing where I felt like I could really explain technology to people who are non-technical. And that's not necessarily what my course—what I'm aiming to do. I'm trying to teach web developers how to leverage AWS, and then sort of get out of the maybe front-end only or maybe traditional web frameworks—like, they've only worked with stuff that they deploy to Heroku or whatever—trying to teach that crowd, how to leverage AWS and all these wonderful primitives that we have.So, that's not exactly the same thing, but that's sort of like, I feel like I do have the ability to translate technology to non-technical folks. And then I guess, like, for me, at this stage of my career, you know, I've done a lot of work for a company, for startups, for individual clients, and it feels very, like—I just always feel like I'm going in a hole. Like, I feel like, I'm doing this little thing and I'm serving this one customer, but the idea of being able to, I guess, serve more people and sort of spread my reach, the idea of creating something that I can share with a lot of developers who would maybe benefit from it, it just feels better, I guess. [laugh]. I don't know exactly all the reasons why that feels better, but like, at the end of the day, my consulting kind of feels like this thing I do because I just need money.And now that I need money less and less, I just feel like I'd rather do stuff that I actually am excited about. I'm actually really excited about the outcomes for creating a course where, you know, I think I can maybe—my style of teaching or something could resonate with some group of people. Yeah, so that's it. It's AWS for web devs. The thought is that I'm going to create courses after this. Like, I hope to move into more education, less consulting. That's where I'm at.Corey: I would say you're probably selling yourself fairly short. I've seen a lot of the content you've put out over the years and I learned a lot from it every time. I think that there are some folks who put courses out where, one, they don't have the baseline knowledge around what it is that they're teaching, it just feels like a grift, and another failure mode is that people know how to do the thing, but they have no idea how to teach it to someone who isn't them. And there's nothing inherently wrong with not knowing how to teach; it is its own distinct skill. The problem is when you don't recognize that about yourself and in turn, wind up having some somewhat significant challenges.Adam: Yeah. No, I know that one of the struggles is, I work with pretty obscure technologies on AWS. Not obscure, but like, I have a very specific way I build APIs on AWS and I don't know that's generally, if you're taking a bunch of web developers and trying to move them into AWS is probably not the stack that I use. So, that is part of it, but that's also kind of to my benefit, I guess. It works for me a little bit in that I'm less familiar with maybe the more beginner-friendly way to enter into AWS.It's been years, so I think I can kind of come at it a little fresh and that'll help me produce a course that maybe meets them where they're at better. Yeah, the grifting thing, I'm definitely sensitive to just this idea of putting out a course. It was hard for me to really go out there and say I was making a course, even on Twitter, because I just feel like there's, like, some stereotype—I don't know, there's an association with that, for me at least, for my perception of course creation. But I know that there are people who've done it right and do it for the right reasons. And I think to the extent that I could hit that, you know, both those things, do it right and do it for the right reasons, then it's exciting to me. And if I can't, and it turned out not good at teaching, then I'll move on and do more consulting, I guess, [laugh] or streaming on Twitch.Corey: You are very clearly self-aware enough that if you put something out and it isn't effective, I have zero doubt that you won't just stop selling it, you'll take it down and reach out to people. Because you, more so than most, seem very cognizant of the fact that a poor experience learning something does not in most people's cases, translate to, “Oh, my teacher is shitty.” Instead, it's, “Oh, I'm bad at this and I'm not smart enough to figure it out.” That's still the problem I run into with bad developer experience on a bunch of things that get launched. If I have a bad time, I assume it's, “Oh, I'm stupid. I wish someone had told me.”And first, they did, secondly, it's the sense that no, it's just not being very clearly explained and the folks who wrote the documentation or talking about it are too close to what they've built to understand what it's like to look at this thing from fresh eyes. They're doing a poor job of setting the stage to explain the value it brings and in what scenario, you should be using this.Adam: It's a long process. I want to launch the course in the fall, but in the process of building out the course, I'm really going to be doing workshops and individual—like, I just have a lot of friends that are web developers and I'm going to be kind of getting on with them and teaching them this material and just trying to see what resonates. I'm going to a lot of trouble, I guess, to make sure I'm not just putting out a thing just to say I made a course. Like, I don't actually want to say I made a course, so if I'm going to do it, it's like most things I do I really kind of throw myself into. And I know if I spend enough energy and effort, I think I can make something that at least helps some people. I guess we'll see.Corey: I look forward to it. Any idea as far as rough timeline goes?Adam: Yeah, I hope to launch in the fall. But if it takes longer, I don't know. I've heard people say, to do a course right, you should spend a year on it. And maybe that's what I do.Corey: No, I love that answer. It's great. You're just saying I want to launch in the fall, which is sufficiently vague, and if that winds up not being vague enough, you could always qualify with, “Well, I didn't say what year.”Adam: [laugh].Corey: So, great you know, it's always going to be the fall somewhere.Adam: [laugh]. I just know, like, when someone says you should spend a year I just do things very hard. Like I really, like, throw a lot of time and obsess, like, I'm very obsessive. And when I do something, it's hard for me imagine doing any one thing for a year because I burn myself out. Like, I obsess very hard for usually, like, three months, it's usually, like, a quarter, and then I fall off the face of the earth for three months and I basically mope around the house and I'm just too tired to do anything else. So, I think right now I'm streaming and that's kind of been my obsession. I'm three weeks in so we got a few more months and then we'll see, [laugh] we'll see how I maintain it.Corey: Well, I look forward to seeing how it comes out. You'll have to come back and let us know when it's ready for launch.Adam: Yeah, that sounds great.Corey: I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time and taking me through what you're up to. If people want to learn more, what's the best place for them to find you?Adam: Yeah, I think Twitter. I mean, I mostly hang out on Twitter, and these days Twitch. So, Twitter my handle—I guess you'll put it, like, in the thing description or something. It's like the phonetic—Corey: Oh, we will absolutely toss it into the show notes, where useful content goes to linger.Adam: [laugh]. It's like A-E-D-U-H-M. It's like a—it's the phonetic way of saying Adam, I guess. And then on Twitch, I'm adamelmore. So, those are the two places I spend most my time.Corey: And off to the show notes it goes. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate it, Adam.Adam: Thank you so much for having me, Corey. I really appreciate it.Corey: Adam Elmore, independent AWS consultant. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an insulting comment that attempts to teach us exactly what we got wrong, but fails utterly because you're terrible at teaching things.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Adam Kenney is Chief Product Officer at Numerated, which helps banks and credit unions transform how they lend to businesses. Chad talks with Adam about what institutional banks and credit unions are like as a market and customers and what sales cycles look like, going from 17 to more than 130 customers quickly, and the scaling challenges they faced, and how the pandemic affected them as a company. Numerated (https://www.numerated.com/) Follow Numerated on Twitter (https://twitter.com/numeratedgt), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4igz9AZqOXJlZxtXUBO-1Q), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/numerated/). Follow Adam on Twitter (https://twitter.com/ademski) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-kenney-ab-cmu/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me, today is Adam Kenney, Chief Product Officer at Numerated, which helps banks and credit unions transform how they lend to businesses. Adam, thanks so much for joining me. ADAM: Thank you, Chad. Thanks for having me. CHAD: Let's dive into Numerated a little bit more. How do you help banks and credit unions lend to businesses? ADAM: I think we're in the middle of what is a pretty meaningful transformation in terms of how businesses are expecting to get access to credit. Really what they want is something that is fast, easy, convenient, largely driven off of the change that has happened in the retail space over the last 10 to 15 years. And in many ways, business lending is still catching up to that, and so our focus is doing that. It's helping the banks and credit unions really change how they interact with their business customers. We use a combination of data and great experiences to make that process as seamless as possible. We've been noted to, using the combination of data and technology, help banks increase the number of loans that they can do with their existing staff by as much as fourfold. We are also noted for inventing what we like to refer to as the three-minute business loan. It's one of the things we were written up on in the Wall Street Journal back in our days in Eastern Labs, where we've been able to get businesses from the point of application all the way to a funded loan in less than three minutes. And that's a process that historically has taken as long as three weeks. And so really excited by the ways that we're able to really help change how banks themselves can look at their operations. But more than anything, it's how banks are able to rethink and change how they interact with businesses and help the businesses in your communities grow and get access to the credit that they need. CHAD: So from a digital product perspective, there's a piece of a product there that banks are actually taking on and white-labeling that provides a lending experience for their clients, right? ADAM: That's correct. I mean, we're a cloud-based SaaS system. But you're right; they branded as their own. And so if you're going to Eastern Bank's website and clicking through and ultimately going through the application process with us, it's going to look and feel like it's just Eastern's website. And all of the interactions that you have with Eastern or any of our customers are going to feel that way as well. So yes, it is a white-label solution that we sell to the banks, and they provide to their customers. CHAD: The actual banking industry is not one that I've had a lot of experience in. And so I'm curious what institutional banks, credit unions, that kind of thing what they're like as a market or as customers and what the sales cycle looks like and those kinds of things. ADAM: It's about as varied as an industry can get, I'll tell you that. [laughs] You have to remember that banks and credit unions can be as small as having a few hundred million dollars in assets, maybe as small as 100 million. And in some of our customers' cases, they're de novo banks, and they're just getting started. And they range up to multiple billions of dollars in assets. And so, these are organizations that scale dramatically. Each of them have their own problems. They're also going to be made up of very different tech-minded individuals. You're going to have some smaller institutions that are basically managing a book of business that's been a book of business for close to a century and are interested in how technology can make them more efficient. But they are not the technologists that you and I would be used to working with on a day-to-day basis. And then, of course, you have people like ourselves who are really trying to, from inside the bank, change what banking is to their customers. And so, it's a very diverse industry in terms of what they're looking to accomplish. We've even come up with recently this framework around how we think about and really talk to our customers about how they transform and the levels of transformation that they can go through. And for us, it's essentially a four-level transformation starting with very small and pointed technology innovations that allow them to drive innovation in very fragmented bits and pieces, for lack of a better term, up to and including they're going to transform everything or become a digital bank. And you can imagine there are lots of stops along the way in terms of where a bank is and where they want to end up as part of their strategy. CHAD: From a product perspective and managing change, do you get a lot of custom features from individual, either clients or potential clients? And how do you manage that if you do? ADAM: The way I think about it is that we certainly get a lot of requests from our customers, and every customer likes to think that they are different and unique. In reality, there's a strong theme to almost all of the requests that we get. And personally, I think that's part of what our job is as a product leader is to really understand how to create themes out of the individual requests and provide a platform back to the market that addresses as many of those in a more holistic way and drives value across not just the individual asks but across all of the customers. And so yeah, there's some uniqueness. And certainly, we need to provide a platform that allows for that. So as an example, every bank has a slightly different view into how they want their credit policy to work and be implemented, but the framework around how you make credit decisions, how I get data into the platform. How do I create a credit matrix? And how do I then decide the exact offer terms to drive out of that? Like, that's a standard capability. And so we're innovating on that based on the individual features, but it's really not with an eye towards providing a specific custom feature to individual customers. It's more providing a flexible platform that allows them to configure the nuance but in a general theme that's going to help them be a better business. CHAD: So in the U.S., we had a specific program launched, PPP loans, in the pandemic to help support businesses. And I know thoughtbot we participated in that and went through that process. I don't think our bank was using Numerated. But I know that the bank really maybe...because they weren't using Numerated, [laughs] they needed to bring together an entirely new application interface very, very quickly in order to be able to take our application to that. And I think that Numerated was right there at the start of that. ADAM: Yes. CHAD: Talk about something custom maybe quickly. ADAM: [laughs] CHAD: What did pulling that together look like? ADAM: So maybe to take a step back if I could first and just paint a picture for you because you're right, it was kind of a unique and incredible period of time. We were fortunate in our line of work because we are all about helping banks transform how they lend to businesses. We had the base platform already built and established that allowed businesses to apply for loans on our platform. Even before the pandemic, we were one of the leading technology platforms for processing SBA loans. So we were uniquely positioned for the opportunity as it results to PPP. At the start of the pandemic, we had approximately 17 customers using our platform. Fast forward six months later, we had 135. And so, to your point around there were a large number of institutions looking for a new application solution overnight, I think that shows you how aggressively banks needed a solution. And there was an opportunity for us to offer our platform to be that. I think the other thing to recognize as part of the backdrop anyway is this was a crazy time if you think back to where we were in the pandemic. No one knew what life was going to look like in a week. And most businesses, especially smaller ones, didn't know if they were going to have a business. And so for us, that also provided the opportunity and maybe a little bit of the confidence in saying, "You know, we have nothing to lose. We're well-positioned. And what else are we going to do? Because it's not like people are making other loans for the next couple of months. Let's just go own this". And so I think it was the combination of us making that recognition, having a really good base platform that had familiarity with the SBA, had familiarity with business lending, and with a team that then could really acutely focus on solving this one problem for as many customers as possible. And by the way, have the emotional impact of not only helping banks but knowing that we're basically helping hundreds of thousands of businesses stay afloat through probably the craziest time in our country's history. And so that's really what got us going. And then there was a ton of work to your point around customization around building out the platform. But the one thing we've tried to do from the beginning is hold true to some of the foundational vision that I mentioned earlier. Like, we don't want to be in the business of custom software. That's not a winning proposition for us or our customers. And so, as much as it was maybe hard at times, throughout PPP, we were always thinking about okay, so we have to make these changes to support this crazy never-before-seen lending program. But how can we do it in a way that's going to set us up to serve the businesses in a year or two when this whole pandemic thing is over? Because PPP is not going to last forever, but our customers are. The businesses are still going to need credit. So whatever we're doing as much as possible, let's be building a foundation that gets us well beyond PPP. And so we were using it as really a catalyst to build a bigger business even while we were helping customers through the pandemic. CHAD: One of the things that I really appreciated, and I have an outside perspective on it, but I really...and people can always do better. ADAM: Yes. [laughs] CHAD: But I thought it was one of the rare circumstances where everyone realized the urgency of the situation: government, banks, everybody. And there was a real willingness to realize, well, we've got to do something. If we try to figure it out all right now, it's going to take too long. So let's just do something, and we'll work out the details later. And so I think there was a willingness, and from a product perspective, my guess would be that allowed you to work iteratively too. ADAM: It did. It was [laughs], I think in some ways a blessing and a curse. CHAD: [laughs] ADAM: Because I can tell you that the number of times my team would get a set of new capabilities, which listen, were great for the customers. It made everything better for the businesses that needed help, so I would never want it any other way. But the number of times that those new capabilities were announced by the SBA on a Friday night and were expected to be live on Monday morning, let's just say it was more frequent than I would ever like to relive. [laughs] And I can remember, especially going into the second round of PPP, it just so happened that all that was happening between Thanksgiving and Christmas in a year where all families wanted to do was spend time with each other after a crazy year had gone by. But we didn't get that luxury, unfortunately. We had a job to do, and that was to make sure that we were ready for the next round. And so it did come with a lot of cost in terms of we had to work really hard to make it happen. But to your point, it allowed us to iterate. And I give the government credit, too, particularly the SBA. They could have, for example, just launched the program and then launched more money into it and stood still, but they didn't do that. To your comment, they had to get live as quick as possible. And so that first round of PPP, there were more technology hiccups. The SBA had some volume constraints. They couldn't really handle the performance. We ended up having to govern our application submissions because otherwise, the SBA couldn't handle it. There were other challenges in terms of how we were validating data. But that got better month by month. And certainly, by the time we got to the forgiveness part of the process and then the next round of PPP the following winter, they actually invested in completely ripping out their legacy API and providing us in the tech community a modern RESTful interface that was much easier, much more performant. And so, even though the volume got even crazier as we went through the program, it actually became easier for us to deliver. The first round, we were literally working around the clock because the SBA was having issues. We couldn't get enough documents through DocuSign and whatever else. We did, I want to say, close to 3 times the volume in the next round a year later but at about 15% of the energy because we had just improved that much in less than a year. And it wasn't just Numerated; it was Numerated working with our partners in government and elsewhere to just get the process that much smoother for our customers. CHAD: Were there things that you needed to do at Numerated? I mean, to go from 17 customers to more than 130 that quickly, I assume that there were some scaling challenges for you along the way. ADAM: There was. And I will say this: we were blessed to have a really good technical infrastructure in place that allowed us to scale on the infrastructure side without a ton of problems. We were able to essentially stand up new environments in our infrastructure relatively quickly and easily and even handle the peak volume of PPP, which was exponentially higher than anything we had ever done on the platform. That was not a problem for us. Where we had to scale is in two areas, one from a technical standpoint was how we were interacting with our technical partners. I mentioned already the need to govern how we were submitting applications to the SBA. We worked very closely with DocuSign to essentially put rate caps on how many documents we were generating at any given time and essentially spread the volume because none of us had dealt with that or dealt with that kind of volume before. And that's where we had technical challenges were in the interfaces and working with partners to make sure everything lined up well. So that was one area, got through it pretty well. And ultimately, like I said, for the second round, we were smooth sailing. The other area to your point around standing up all the banks was how we implemented the customers. Our typical implementation cycles going into the pandemic were multiple months. We had to stand up all over the PPP banks in less than two weeks. And so that took a combination of...I'll call it technical delivery. So we essentially created a cookie-cutter deployment and then used a deployment strategy to push that to all of the new customers all at once that we didn't have before. And we were able to create that relatively quickly. The other was we had to take a much harder stance with our customers than we had ever done around look; everyone's getting the same thing. It's government-mandated anyway, but it's going to be exactly the same. And other than the white-labeling that we, of course, gave everybody, you might want slightly different process around the workflow, around the approval. You're going to have to take the same thing that everybody else is because we just don't have time to configure the nuance across 100 banks. And so luckily, to your earlier comment around, everybody just realized we were in this unique time, we do what we have to do, and we got through it. Our banks were very willing to do that. But that was the other change we had to do to really see this scale through. Mid-Roll Ad: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoff CHAD: If you're comfortable talking about architecture a little bit, do you have a shared sort of platform that everyone is on? Or, for each of the customers you have, do they have their own instance? ADAM: So we've made the decision, mostly because of our regulated industry; we felt like it was safer, so each customer gets their own database. We do keep everyone's data completely isolated to protect their information and give them the utmost confidence that it is protected. But we have a shared application layer. And so, our web servers are shared multi-tenant instances. And so it's essentially a combined environment where we're both sharing some resources but then also deploying individual databases and then the configuration because outside of PPP, it is unique bank by bank. And so, the configuration gets deployed within each bank's individual environment. CHAD: Cool. I've worked on systems like that before, and they can certainly present...especially when you need to scale them quickly, and you've got a lot of new customers being added. You better hope that it's been automated. [laughs] ADAM: Yes. And luckily, we had a good amount of automation in place during PPP or even going into it, I should say, but of course, PPP stretched that. And so we've just continued to get better and better as a couple of years have gone by. CHAD: So the second PPP came through. It's in the forgiveness period now, so that's winding down. So Numerated were at that point you alluded to earlier, which is when you were doing PPP, you realized it's not going to be around forever. Let's lay the groundwork now to help customers in the future. We're sort of at that point now, right? ADAM: Yes. CHAD: So what does that look like for you? ADAM: So it's essentially expanding the portfolio of loans that our customers can leverage our platform to execute. And maybe to say that better, if you look back prior to PPP, we got our start with small small business lending. And what I mean by that is loans under $250,000 that can be highly automated. That's where Numerated got its start working with Eastern first 15 customers, saw the value in getting extreme efficiency and delivering essentially capital to their businesses in a number of days instead of weeks. That's what we were great at, very similar to what PPP was, by the way, which was getting money to people in a number of hours in some cases. But we knew that that was never the vision for what we wanted to be or what our banks needed in the business banking segment. Ultimately, they want that same level of use efficiency experience for all of their business loans. But in order to support that, there are a number of capabilities that we needed to build into our platform to handle that. Underwriting gets increasingly complicated when you are underwriting loans at 500,000, a million, or $5 million. The businesses get more complicated. The collateral gets more complicated. The entire process just becomes more sophisticated. But that's what banks want, and by the way, that's what businesses want. They don't want to have a great experience when they're a little bit smaller, and they've taken out a $100,000 loan and then have the experience be crap two years later when they come back, and they've taken out a million-dollar loan. And so, that has always been our vision. We've had the fortune of being able to do really well on PPP and essentially just accelerate that vision. And so that's what we're working on right now is really building a loan origination system that allows our customers to transform how they lend to businesses in entirety. We have been building out all of the sophistication I mentioned around underwriting. We have recently acquired a company called Fincura based out of the Boston area. They automate spreading. If you're not familiar with what spreading is, it basically takes either paper or PDF versions of a bank's financial statements, and it turns them into really critical financial ratios that help banks understand the creditworthiness and the risk associated with the business. So you can imagine what that is. It's taking OCR, technology, AI, and basically taking what were PDFs and converting them into scores that can then be used to automate and drive efficiency in the credit decision, again, all part of being able to then really transform how banks are doing all of their business lending. But that's what we're working on now, converting all of the PPP customers to use the non-PPP, for lack of a better phrase, parts of the platform and really helping them change how their businesses look at them in terms of the opportunity to access credit. CHAD: So I think it's probably worth noting you made the decision to join Numerated right before the pandemic hit. ADAM: That's correct. CHAD: And so you joined when? ADAM: My last day at my previous company happened to be the day we closed the office due to the pandemic. I had obviously made the decision prior to that. But then, my first day on the job at Numerated was the second day of PPP. So essentially, you know, call it a week after everybody had gone home for what became the better part of the next year to two years. CHAD: So I assume making a decision to join a new company, you're going to be the chief product officer. You've had a lot of conversations about what the vision is and what you're going to do. And you're going into a business where hey, there are 17 customers, and we're going to scale. But you probably didn't guess what was going to happen ended up happening. ADAM: No. [laughs] CHAD: So I imagine like part of your vision for what you were going to do both as a company and as an individual must have gotten put on hold. ADAM: It's funny, yes and no. So I will say no to your lead in there. There were certainly times before I started where I was calling Dan our founder and CEO. And I was probing him and pushing him like, is this still a thing? [laughs] Are we really going to go do this? Not realizing what PPP was and really what it was going to mean for our business. So there was that period of time where I wasn't sure. I knew it was going to be different, but I didn't know what that meant yet. Once I understood what was happening and what we were doing, I actually never felt like it was putting anything on hold. And I can come back to the fact that it put some elements of our business on hold. But for me and why I joined and the vision I had, I was coming to help the team really expand what the platform could do for banks and their business customers and to accelerate the number of ways we could help. I have prior experience working at Capital One and Pegasystems with a lot of the systems and the processes that we were helping to reinvent at Numerated. And so, my vision was always to come and build off of those past experiences and accelerate what we were doing in this specific small business segment. PPP, in a lot of ways, just accelerated that. It took what would have probably been three to five years' worth of market adoption in terms of understanding what digital transformation was going to look like, getting customers fully comfortable with a more digital experience, getting comfortable with a more data-driven approach to decision-making. And the pandemic forced all of that to happen in weeks. CHAD: Well, people couldn't even go into the bank to turn in their paperwork. It had to be done remotely. The staff wasn't there either. ADAM: And the staff no longer could look at paper financial statements because they couldn't get paper financial statements. And so everything changed overnight. One of our customers has told us at multiple customer events since he's like, "You guys, you let the rabbit out of the hat, and it's not going back." It just changed overnight what was happening in the industry. And then, for us, it gave us all of this extra opportunity to invest and invest more in what we wanted to go do. Our team, when I joined, was about 40 to 45 people. Our team now is 145 people. And our engineering team went from a little over 20 to just under 60. So we have exponentially changed the rate in which we're innovating and going after things. And so, for me, it's just accelerated and made things more exciting. The one other comment I'll make in terms of putting things on hold it did put some elements of the business on hold because every one of our customers stopped thinking about what I'll call traditional business lending and focused 100% for the better part of 18 months on getting through the pandemic. And even once PPP was done, there was another six to nine months where banks were trying to figure out, are we really out of the pandemic? Are we ready to start lending the way we used to? Do we need to rethink risk? Because these businesses are all different now than they were two years ago. The things that made a business risky two years ago are different now. And so there was also a little bit of a hangover as our customers internalized within their own walls what it meant to get back into lending. And so, it did put some elements of that on hold. We were fortunate, though, that we grew so much through PPP. And we actually kept adding what I'll call core customers, not just PPP customers, during that period that our growth actually accelerated. And it's been really good for us. CHAD: That's great. You mentioned the team growth that you've had. Different companies are organized in different ways. As Chief Product Officer, where do you sit within the organization and relative to the engineering team? ADAM: So at Numerated, my responsibility includes all of the product management as well as the engineering organization. So I'm responsible with my teams for everything from initial product strategy, the product design. I have all of the UX and design team as well as then all of the execution, the delivery of the platform as well. CHAD: So does that mean that there's VP of engineering in your organization or some sort of person like that that's working closely with you? ADAM: Sort of. So I have...basically, it divides more at the director level. So I have a couple of VPs that work for me that have a combination of product and engineering, both experience, expertise, and responsibility. But then their teams have product managers, and then we have directors of engineering that then manage their individuals from teams. I also have a group of former bankers. They're product managers but act as consultants to those organizations. And that's where we get all of our industry expertise. They've worked with the SBA. They've worked in credit offices, and they really help to influence the product roadmap across those teams as well. CHAD: So the entire engineering structure also being under the chief Product Officer, I would say that and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's probably not how the majority of companies organize it. Do you agree with that? ADAM: I have seen both, but I would agree that it is not the majority. CHAD: I would say if there is a majority, and I agree, I've seen both too, but you might have a CTO and then VP of engineering. And so, the engineering organization goes all the way up to the C-level. And then there's a Chief Product Officer. And here's the product management and product underneath them. Was this an intentional choice from the beginning as you scaled out the team for you to have it all live under you? ADAM: It was intentional. I will give my personal view on it. I think that as we continue to evolve as technology companies, one of the hardest things for us to achieve is alignment around vision and purpose. And that drives a level of focus that I think maximizes the ability to move the business forward. And based on that premise, the places where I've seen things work the best is when there is a focal point across product and engineering within specialization underneath. Because it drives, I think, the best alignment across the organization. I will acknowledge, however, that finding leaders that can actually operate effectively in that combined role is extremely difficult because you need people that have a high degree of engineering experience so that they actually know how to build for quality, build for scale, even for things that don't immediately impact the bottom line while having enough business acumen to understand the demands of the business and how to balance those priorities against what we need to grow the business at the same time. And so, it does create a little bit of a snowflake challenge. I cannot find or replace those roles as we grow and scale nearly as quickly as I can in a divided organization. But I have found that it does help me drive clarity of priorities and purpose and ultimately focus in the organization versus the places I've worked where that hasn't been the case. CHAD: So I guess given that, then I assume you're hiring. [laughs] ADAM: We are always hiring. [laughs] We are definitely in growth mode. And we are looking for great people that can help us to build a platform and really transform how our customers are thinking about how they lend to their businesses. CHAD: Well, I agree. I think there are different structures then that can achieve it. And also, a lot of it comes down to the people but that alignment and that understanding of design, and product, and development or engineering. And ideally, people and all of those skill sets and all those teams who get it and can balance those different priorities with the business is really important, and that alignment of vision. And so there are probably different structures to get it, but that's what you're aiming for. And I think that the structure that you've set up is one which is very helpful to getting that alignment. ADAM: Agreed. Agreed. I think that while we're on the topic of the team and the culture we're trying to build out, I'll maybe use that as a way to share a few more things that we're really driving towards. You can imagine a company that has scaled the way we have and continues to grow. That presents some other organizational challenges as well. One of my firm beliefs is the fastest way to scale is to create really strong, empowered, decentralized teams. That, again, gets back to the whole vision and focus thing. They have to be rowing in the same direction. But they have to be really independent in the day-to-day. And so we've really spent a lot of time over the last, I would say, year and a half shifting to that kind of a model to where each of the teams is really embracing what their individual accountabilities are. They are really focused on how they're delivering success for the business and are able to make a lot of the day-to-day decisions. But then it falls to management, leadership, myself to make sure that when they make those decisions, they understand the context in which we're trying to drive the business so that we can do as much as we can as fast as we can but in a way that's high quality and delivers value. CHAD: Awesome. Well, I sincerely wish you all the best in that. I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing. Thank you. ADAM: Yeah, my pleasure. I appreciate the time, and good to get to know you a little bit, Chad. CHAD: If folks want to find out more, maybe apply, follow along with you; where are all the places that they can do that? ADAM: Yeah, sure. So numerated.com is where they can go and learn more about the business, and they can learn more about where we're hiring. People should check me out on LinkedIn. That's probably where I'm the most active these days. And feel free to message me as well. I'll also give you my email address if anybody wants to reach out. It's pretty simple. It's adam@numerated.com. Whether it's opinions, thoughts, or reactions to anything that I've shared today, or you just want to build a relationship, I'd love to hear from people and get to know you a little bit better. CHAD: Wonderful. You can find links to all those things, probably not Adam's email address, in the show notes. ADAM: [laughs] CHAD: We want to protect him from those spam crawlers. But you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Adam Kenney.

In this conversation, Adam Falk and I talk about running research programs with impact over long timescales, creating new fields, philanthropic science funding, and so much more.  Adam is the president of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation,  which was started by the eponymous founder of General Motors and has been funding science and education efforts for almost nine decades.  They've funded everything from iPython Notebooks to the Wikimedia foundation to an astronomical survey of the entire sky. If you're like me, their name is familiar from the acknowledgement part of PBS science shows. Before becoming the president of the Sloan Foundation, Adam was the president of Williams College and a high energy physicist focused on elementary particle physics and quantum field theory. His combined experience in research, academic administration, and philanthropic funding give him a unique and fascinating perspective on the innovation ecosystem. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did.  Links - The Sloan Foundation - Adam Falk on Wikipedia  - Philanthropy and the Future of Science and Technology Highlight Timestamps - How do you measure success in science? [00:01:31] - Thinking about programs on long timescales [00:05:27] -  How does the Sloan Foundation decide which programs to do? [00:08:08] - Sloan's Matter to Life Program [00:12:54] -  How does the Sloan Foundation think about coordination? [00:18:24] -  Finding and incentivizing program directors [00:22:32] - What should academics know about the funding world and what should the funding world know about academics? [00:28:03] - Grants and academics as the primary way research happens [00:33:42] - Problems with grants and common grant applications [00:44:49] - Addressing the criticism of philanthropy being inefficient because it lacks market mechanisms [00:47:16] - Engaging with the idea that people who create value should be able to capture that value [00:53:05]   Transcript [00:00:35] In this conversation, Adam Falk, and I talk about running research programs with impact over long timescales, creating new fields, philanthropic science funding, and so much more. Adam is the president of the Alfred P Sloan foundation, which was started by the eponymous founder of general motors. And has been funding science and education efforts for almost nine decades. They funded everything from IP. I fond [00:01:35] notebooks to Wikimedia foundation. To an astronomical survey of the entire sky. If you're like me, their name is familiar from the acknowledgement part of PBS science shows. Before becoming the president of the Sloan foundation. Adam was the president of Williams college and I high energy physicist focused on elementary particle physics in quantum field theory. His combined experience in research. Uh, Academic administration and philanthropic funding give him a unique and fascinating perspective on the innovation ecosystem i hope you enjoy this as much as i did [00:02:06] Ben: Let's start with like a, sort of a really tricky thing that I'm, I'm myself always thinking about is that, you know, it's really hard to like measure success in science, right? Like you, you know, this better than anybody. And so just like at, at the foundation, how do you, how do you think about success? Like, what is, what does success look like? What is the difference between. Success and failure mean to [00:02:34] Adam: you? [00:02:35] I mean, I think that's a, that's a really good question. And I think it's a mistake to think that there are some magic metrics that if only you are clever enough to come up with build them out of citations and publications you could get some fine tune measure of success. I mean, obviously if we fund in a scientific area, we're funding investigators who we think are going to have a real impact with their work individually, and then collectively. And so of course, you know, if they're not publishing, it's a failure. We expect them to publish. We expect people to publish in high-impact journals, but we look for broader measures as well if we fund a new area. So for example, A number of years ago, we had a program in the microbiology of the built environment, kind of studying all the microbes that live in inside, which turns out to be a very different ecosystem than outside. When we started in that program, there were a few investigators interested in this question. There weren't a lot of tools that were good for studying it. [00:03:35] By 10 years later, when we'd left, there was a journal, there were conferences, there was a community of people who were doing this work, and that was another measure, really tangible measure of success that we kind of entered a field that, that needed some support in order to get going. And by the time we got out, it was, it was going strong and the community of people doing that work had an identity and funding paths and a real future. Yeah. [00:04:01] Ben: So I guess one way that I've been thinking about it, it's just, it's almost like counterfactual impact. Right. Whereas like if you hadn't gone in, then it, the, it wouldn't be [00:04:12] Adam: there. Yeah. I think that's the way we think about it. Of course that's a hard to, to measure. Yeah. But I think that Since a lot of the work we fund is not close to technology, right. We don't have available to ourselves, you know, did we spin out products? Did we spin out? Companies did a lot of the things that might directly connect that work to, [00:04:35] to activities that are outside of the research enterprise, that in other fields you can measure impact with. So the impact is pretty internal. That is for the most part, it is, you know, Has it been impact on other parts of science that, you know, again, that we think might not have happened if we hadn't hadn't funded what we funded. As I said before, have communities grown up another interesting measure of impact from our project that we funded for about 25 years now, the Sloan digital sky survey is in papers published in the following sense that one of the innovations, when the Sloan digital sky survey launched in the early. Was that the data that came out of it, which was all for the first time, digital was shared broadly with the community. That is, this was a survey of the night sky that looked at millions of objects. So they're very large databases. And the investigators who built this, the, the built the, the, the telescope certainly had first crack at analyzing that [00:05:35] data. But there was so much richness in the data that the decision was made at. Sloan's urging early on that this data after a year should be made public 90% of the publications that came out of the Sloan digital sky survey have not come from collaborators, but it come from people who use that data after it's been publicly released. Yeah. So that's another way of kind of seeing impact and success of a project. And it's reached beyond its own borders. [00:06:02] Ben: And you mentioned like both. Just like that timescale, right? Like that, that, that 25 years something that I think is just really cool about the Sloan foundation is like how, how long you've been around and sort of like your capability of thinking on those on like a quarter century timescale. And I guess, how do you, how do you think about timescales on things? Right. Because it's like, on the one hand, this is like, obviously like science can take [00:06:35] 25 years on the other hand, you know, it's like, you need to be, you can't just sort of like do nothing for 25 years. [00:06:44] Adam: So if you had told people back in the nineties that the Sloan digital sky survey was going to still be going after a quarter of a century, they probably never would have funded it. So, you know, I think that That you have an advantage in the foundation world, as opposed to the the, the federal funding, which is that you can have some flexibility about the timescales on what you think. And so you don't have to simply go from grant to grant and you're not kind of at the mercy of a Congress that changes its own funding commitments every couple of years. We at the Sloan foundation tend to think that it takes five years at a minimum to have impact into any new field that you go into it. And we enter a new science field, you know, as we just entered, we just started a new program matter to life, which we can talk about. [00:07:35] That's initially a five-year commitment to put about $10 million a year. Into this discipline, understanding that if things are going well, we'll re up for another five years. So we kind of think of that as a decadal program. And I would say the time scale we think on for programs is decades. The timescale we think of for grants is about three years, right? But a program itself consists of many grants may do a large number of investigators. And that's really the timescale where we think you can have, have an impact over that time. But we're constantly re-evaluating. I would say the timescale for rethinking a program is shorter. That's more like five years and we react. So in our ongoing programs, about every five years, we'll take a step back and do a review. You know, whether we're having an impact on the program, we'll get some outside perspectives on it and whether we need to keep it going exactly as it is, or adjust in some [00:08:35] interesting ways or shut it down and move the resources somewhere else. So [00:08:39] Ben: I like that, that you have, you almost have like a hierarchy of timescales, right? Like you have sort of multiple going at once. I think that's, that's like under underappreciated and so w one thing they want to ask about, and maybe the the, the life program is a good sort of like case study in this is like, how do you, how do you decide what pro, like, how do you decide what programs to do, right? Like you could do anything. [00:09:04] Adam: So th that is a terrific question and a hard one to get. Right. And we just came out of a process of thinking very deeply about it. So it's a great time to talk about it. Let's do it. So To frame the large, the problem in the largest sense, if we want to start a new grantmaking program where we are going to allocate about $10 million a year, over a five to 10 year period, which is typical for us, the first thing you realize is that that's not a lot of money on the scale that the federal government [00:09:35] invest. So if your first thought is, well, let's figure out the most interesting thing science that people are doing you quickly realize that those are things where they're already a hundred times that much money going in, right? I mean, quantum materials would be something that everybody is talking about. The Sloan foundation, putting $10 million a year into quantum materials is not going to change anything. Interesting. So you start to look for that. You start to look for structural reasons that something that there's a field or an emerging field, and I'll talk about what some of those might be, where an investment at the scale that we can make can have a real impact. And And so what might some of those areas be? There are fields that are very interdisciplinary in ways that make it hard for individual projects to find a home in the federal funding landscape and one overly simplified, but maybe helpful way to think about it is that the federal funding landscape [00:10:35] is, is governed large, is organized largely by disciplines. That if you look at the NSF, there's a division, there's a director of chemistry and on physics and so forth. And but many questions don't map well onto a single discipline. And sometimes questions such as some of the ones we're exploring in the, you know, the matter to life program, which I can explain more about what that is. Some of those questions. Require collaborations that are not naturally fundable in any of the silos the federal government has. So that's very interdisciplinary. Work is one area. Second is emerging disciplines. And again, often that couples to interdisciplinary work in a way that often disciplines emerge in interesting ways at the boundaries of other disciplines. Sometimes the subject matter is the boundary. Sometimes it's a situation where techniques developed in one discipline are migrating to being used in another discipline. And that often happens with physics, the [00:11:35] physicist, figure out how to do something, like grab the end of a molecule and move it around with a laser. And suddenly the biologists realize that's a super interesting thing for them. And they would like to do that. So then there's work. That's at the boundary of those kind of those disciplines. You know, a third is area that the ways in which that that can happen is that you can have. Scale issues where, where kind of work needs to happen at a certain scale that is too big to be a single investigator, but too small to kind of qualify for the kind of big project funding that you have in the, in the, in the federal government. And so you're looking, you could also certainly find things that are not funded because they're not very interesting. And those are not the ones we want to fund, but you often have to sift through quite a bit of that to find something. So that's what you're looking for now, the way you look for it is not that you sit in a conference room and get real smart and think that you're going to see [00:12:35] things, other people aren't going to see rather you. You source it out, out in the field. Right. And so we had an 18 month process in which we invited kind of proposals for what you could do on a program at that scale, from major research universities around the country, we had more than a hundred ideas. We had external panels of experts who evaluated these ideas. And that's what kind of led us in the end to this particular framing of the new program that we're starting. So and, and that, and that process was enough to convince us that this was interesting, that it was, you know, emergent as a field, that it was hard to fund in other ways. And that the people doing the work are truly extraordinary. Yeah. And that's, that's the, that's what you're looking for. And I think in some ways there are pieces of that in all of the programs that particularly the research programs that. [00:13:29] Ben: And so, so actually, could you describe the matter to life program and like, [00:13:35] and sort of highlight how it fits into all of those buckets? [00:13:38] Adam: Absolutely. So the, the, the matter of the life program is an investigation into the principles, particularly the physical principles that matter uses in order to organize itself into living systems. The first distinction to make is this is not a program about how did life evolve on earth, and it's actually meant to be a broader question then how is life on earth organized the idea behind it is that life. Is a particular example of some larger phenomenon, which is life. And I'm not going to define life for you. That is, we know what things are living and we know things that aren't living and there's a boundary in between. And part of the purpose of this program is to explore that it's a think of it as kind of out there, on, out there in the field. And, and mapmaking, and you know, over here is, you [00:14:35] know, is a block of ice. That's not alive. And, you know, over here is a frog and that's alive and there's all sorts of intermediate spaces in there. And there are ideas out there that, that go, you know, that are interesting ideas about, for example, at the cellular level how is information can date around a cell? What might the role of. Things like non-equilibrium thermodynamics be playing is how does, can evolution be can it can systems that are, non-biological be induced to evolve in interesting ways. And so we're studying both biotic and non biotic systems. There are three strains, stray strands in this. One is building life. That is it was said by I think I, I find men that if you can't build something, you don't understand it. And so the idea, and there are people who want to build an actual cell. I think that's, that's a hard thing to do, but we have people who are building in the laboratory little bio-molecular machines understanding how that might [00:15:35] work. We, we fund people who are kind of constructing, protocells thinking about ways that the, the ways that liquid separate might provide SEP diff divisions between inside and outside, within. Chemical reactions could take place. We funded businesses to have made tiny little, you know, micron scale magnets that you mix them together and you can get them to kind of organize themselves in interesting ways. Yeah. In emerge. What are the ways in which emergent behaviors come to this air couple into this. And so that's kind of building life. Can you kind of build systems that have features that feel essential to life and by doing that, learn something general about, say the reproduction of, of, of, of DNA or something simple about how inside gets differentiated from outside. Second strand is principles of life, and that's a little bit more around are [00:16:35] there physics principles that govern the organization of life? And again, are there ways in which the kinds of thinking that informed thermodynamics, which is kind of the study of. Piles of gas and liquid and so forth. Those kinds of thinking about bulk properties and emergent behavior can tell us something about what's the difference between life that's life and matter. That's not alive. And the third strain is signs of life. And, you know, we have all of these telescopes that are out there now discover thousands of exoplanets. And of course the thing we all want to know is, is there life on them? We were never going to go to them. We maybe if we go, we'll never come back. And and we yet we can look and see the chemical composition of these. Protoplanets just starting to be able to see that. And they transition in front of a star, the atmospheres of these planets absorb light from the stars and the and the light that's absorbed tells you something about the chemical composition of the atmosphere. [00:17:35] So there's a really interesting question. Kind of chemical. Are there elements of the chemical composition of an atmosphere that would tell you that that life is present there and life in general? Right. I, you know, if, if you, if you're going to look for kind of DNA or something, that might be way too narrow, a thing to kind of look for. Right. So we've made a very interesting grant to a collaboration that is trying to understand the general properties of atmospheres of Rocky planets. And if you kind of knew all of the things that an atmosphere of an Earth-like planet might look like, and then you saw something that isn't one in one of those, you think, well, something other might've done that. Yeah. So that's a bit of a flavor. What I'd say about the nature of the research is it is, as you could tell highly interdisciplinary. Yeah. Right. So this last project I mentioned requires geoscience and astrophysics and chemistry and geochemistry and a vulcanology an ocean science [00:18:35] and, and Who's going to fund that. Yeah. Right. It's also in very emerging area because it comes at the boundary between geoscience, the understanding of what's going on on earth and absolutely cutting edge astrophysics, the ability to kind of look out into the cosmos and see other planets. So people working at that boundary it's where interesting things often, often happen. [00:18:59] Ben: And you mentioned that when, when you're looking at programs, you're, you're looking for things that are sort of bigger than like a single pie. And like, how do you, how do you think about sort of the, the different projects, like individual projects within a program? Becoming greater than the sum of their parts. Like, like, you know, there's, there's some, there's like one end of the spectrum where you've just sort of say, like, go, go do your things. And everybody's sort of runs off. And then there's another end of the spectrum where you like very explicitly tell people like who should be working on what and [00:19:35] how to, how to collaborate. So like, how do you, [00:19:37] Adam: so one of the wonderful things about being at a foundation is you have a convening power. Yeah. I mean, in part, because you're giving away money, people will, will want to come gather when you say let's come together, you know? And in part, because you just have a way of operating, that's a bit independent. And so the issue you're raising is a very important one, you know, in the individual at a program at a say, science grant making program we will fund a lot of individual projects, which may be a single investigator, or they may be big collab, collaborations, but we also are thinking from the beginning about how. Create help create a field. Right. And it may not always be obvious how that's going to work. I think with matter to life we're early on and we're, you know, we're not sure is this a single field, are there sub fields here? But we're already thinking about how to bring our pies together to kind of share the work they're doing and get to share perspectives. I can give you another example from a program Reno law, we recently [00:20:35] closed, which was a chemistry of the indoor environment. Where we were funded kind of coming out of our work in the microbiology indoors. It turns out that there's also very interesting chemistry going on indoors which is different from the environmental chemistry that we think about outdoors indoors. There are people in all the stuff that they exude, there's an enormous number of surfaces. And so surface chemistry is really important. And, and again, there were people who were doing this work in isolation, interested in, in these kinds of topics. And we were funding them individually, but once we had funded a whole community of people doing. They decided that be really interesting to do a project where, which they called home cam, where they went to a test house and kind of did all sorts of indoor activities like cooking Thanksgiving dinner and studying the chemistry together. And this is an amazing collaboration. So we had, so many of our grantees came together in one [00:21:35] place around kind of one experiment or one experimental environment and did work then where it could really speak to each other. Right. And which they they'd done experiments that were similar enough that they, the people who were studying one aspect of the chemistry and another could do that in a more coherent way. And I think that never would have happened without the Sloan foundation having funded this chemistry of indoor environments program. Both because of the critical mass we created, but also because of the community of scholars that we, that we help foster. [00:22:07] Ben: So, it's like you're playing it a very important role, but then it, it is sort of like a very then bottom up sort of saying like, like almost like put, like saying like, oh, like you people all actually belong together and then they look around and like, oh yeah, yeah, [00:22:24] Adam: we do. I think that's exactly right. And yeah. You don't want to be too directive because, you know, we're, we're just a foundation where we got some program directors and, you know, [00:22:35] we, we do know some things about the science we're funding, but the real expertise lives with these researchers who do this work every day. Right. And so what we're trying to see when, when we think we can see some things that they can't, it's not going to be in the individual details of the work they're doing, but it may be there from up here on the 22nd floor of the Rockefeller center, we can see the landscape a little bit better and are in a position to make connections that then will be fruitful. You know, if we were right, there'll be fruitful because the people on the ground doing the work with the expertise, believe that they're fruitful. Sometimes we make a connection and it's not fruitful in that. It doesn't fruit and that's fine too. You know, we're not always right about everything either, but we have an opportunity to do that. That comes from the. Particular in special place that we happen to sit. Yeah. [00:23:28] Ben: Yeah. And just speaking of program directors, how do you, how do you think about, I mean, like [00:23:35] you're, you're sort of in charge and so how do you think about directing them and, and sort of how do you think about setting up incentives so that, you know, good work like so that they do good work on their programs and and like how much sort of autonomy do you give them? Sort of how does, how does all of that work? [00:23:56] Adam: Absolutely. So I spent most of my career in universities and colleges. I was my own background is as, as, as a theoretical physicist. And I spent quite a bit of time as a Dean and a college president. And I think the key to being a successful academic administrator is understanding deep in your bones, that the faculty are the heart of the institution. They are the intellectual heart and soul of the institution. And that you will have a great institution. If you hire terrific faculty and support them you aren't telling them, you know, you as, and they don't require a lot of telling them what to do, but the [00:24:35] leadership role does require a lot of deciding where to allocate the resources and helping figure out and, and figuring out how, and in what ways, and at what times you can be helpful to them. Yeah. The program directors at the Sloan foundation are very much. The faculty of a, of a university and we have six right now it's five PhDs and a road scholar. Right. And they are, each of them truly respect, deeply respected intellectual leaders in the fields in which they're making grants. Right. And my job is to first off to hire and retain a terrific group of program directors who know way more about the things they're doing than I do. And then to kind of help them figure out how to craft their programs. And you know, there's different kinds of, you know, different kinds of help that different kind of program directors needs. Sometimes they just need resources. Sometimes they need, you know, a collaborative conversation. You know, [00:25:35] sometimes, you know, we talk about the ways in which their individual programs are gonna fit together into the larger. Programs at the Sloan foundation sometimes what we talk about is ways in which we can and should, or shouldn't change what we do in order to build a collaboration elsewhere. But I don't do much directing of the work that program directors to just like, I don't, didn't ever do much of any directing of the work that, that that the faculty did. And I think what keeps a program director engaged at a place like the Sloan foundation is the opportunity to be a leader. Yeah. [00:26:10] Ben: It's actually sort of to double click on that. And on, on, on hiring program directors, it seems it like, I, I, I would imagine that it is, it is sometimes tough to get really, really good program directors, cause people who would make good program directors could probably have, you know, their pick. Amazing roles. And, and to some extent, and, and [00:26:35] they, they, they do get to be a leader, but to some extent, like they're, they're not directly running a lab, right. Like they're, they, they don't have sort of that direct power. And they're, they're not like making as much money as they could be, you know, working at Google or something. And so, so like how do you both like find, and then convince people to, to come do that? [00:26:57] Adam: So that's a great question. I mean, I think there's a certain, you know, P people are meant to be program directors are, are not the, usually the place like the Sloan foundation and different foundations work differently. Right. So but in our case are not people who Otherwise, who would rather be spending their time in the lab. Yeah. Right. And many of them have spent time as serious scholars in one discipline or another, but much like faculty who move into administration, they've come to a point in their careers, whether that was earlier or later in their [00:27:35] career where the larger scope that's afforded by doing it by being a program director compensates for the fact that they can't focus in the same way on a particular problem, that, that the way a faculty member does or a researcher. Yes. So the, the other thing you have to feel really in your bones, which is, again, much like being an academic administrator is that there's a deep reward in finding really talented people and giving them the resources. They need to do great things. Right. And in the case, if you're a program director, what you're doing is finding grantees and When a grantee does something really exciting. We celebrate that here at the foundation as, as a success of the foundation. Not that we're trying to claim their success, but because that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to find other people who can do great things and give them the resources to do those great things. So you have to get a great kind of professional satisfaction from. So there are people who have a [00:28:35] broader view or want to move into a, a time in their careers when they can take that broader view about a field or an area that they already feel passionate about. And then who have the disposition that, that, you know, that wanting to help people is deeply rewarding to them. And, you know, say you, how do you find these folks? It's, it's just like, it's hard to find people who were really good at academic administration. You have to look really hard for people who are going to be great at this work. And you persuade them to do it precisely because they happen to be people who want to do this kind of work. Yeah. [00:29:09] Ben: And actually and so, so you, you sort of are, are highlighting a lot of parallels between academic administration and, and sort of your role now. I think it. Is there anything that, but at the same time, I think that there are many things that like academics don't understand about sort of like science funding and and, and this, that, that world, and then there's many things that it seems like science funders don't understand about [00:29:35] research and, and you're, you're one of the few people who've sort of done in both. And so I guess just a very open-ended question is like, like what, what do you wish that more academics understood about the funding world and things you have to think about here? And what do you wish more people in the funding world understood about, about research? Yeah, [00:29:54] Adam: that is, that is great. So I can give you a couple of things. The, I think at a high level, I, I always wish that on both sides of that divide, there was a deeper understanding of the constraints under which people on the other side are operating. And those are both material constraints and what I might call intellectual constraints. So there's a parallelism here. I, if I first say from the point of view of the, of as a foundation president, what do I wish that academics really understood? I, I, I'm always having to reinforce to people that we really do mean it when we say we do fund, we fund X and we don't fund Y [00:30:35] yeah. And that please don't spend time trying to persuade me that Z, that you do really is close enough to X, that we should fund it and get offended. When I tell you that's not what we fund, we say no to a lot of things that are intrinsically great, but that we're not funding because it's not what we fund. Yeah. We as, and we make choices about what to fund that are very specific and what areas to fund in that are very specific so that we can have some impact, right. And we don't make those decisions lightly, you know, for almost any work someone is doing, we're not the only foundation who might fund it. So move on to someone else. If you're not fitting our program, then argue with us and just understand why it is that, that we do that. Right. I think that is that's a come across that a lot. There's a total parallel, which I think is very important for people in foundations who have very strong ideas about what they should fund to understand that, you know, academics are not going to drop what they're doing and start doing something else because there's a [00:31:35] little bit of money available that, you know, is an academic, of course, you're trying to make. Your questions, two ways, things you can support, but usually driven because some question is really important to you. And if, you know, if some foundation comes to you and says, well, stop doing that and do this, I'll find it. You know why maybe that's, you're pretty desperate. You're not going to do that. So the best program directors spend a lot of time looking for people who already are interested in the thing that the foundation is funding, right? And really underst understand that you can't bribe people into doing something that they, that they, that they otherwise wouldn't do. And so I think those are very parallel. I mean, to both to understand the set of commitments that people are operating under, I would say the other thing that I think it's really important for foundations to understand about about universities is and other institutions is that these institutions. Are not just platforms [00:32:35] on which one can do a project, right? They are institutions that require support on their own. And somebody has to pay the debt service on the building and take out the garbage and cut the grass and clean the building and, you know hire the secretaries and do all of the kind of infrastructure work that makes it possible for a foundation such as Sloan to give somebody $338,000 to hire some postdocs and do some interesting experiments, but somebody is still turning on the lights and overhead goes to the overhead is really important and the overhead is not some kind of profit that universities are taking. It is the money they need in order to operate in ways that make it possible to do the grants. And. You know, there's a longer story here. I mean, even foundations like Sloan don't pay the full overhead and we can do that because [00:33:35] we typically are a very small part of the funding stream. But during the pandemic, we raised our overhead permanently from the 15% we used to pay to the 20% that we pay now, precisely because we've, we felt it was important to signal our support for the institutions. And some of those aren't universities, some of those are nonprofits, right? That other kinds of nonprofits that we're housing, the activities that we were interested in funding. And I just think it's really important for foundations to understand that. And I do think that my own time as a Dean at a college president, when I needed that overhead in order to turn on the lights, so some chemist could hire the post-docs has made me particularly sensitive [00:34:16] Ben: to that. Yeah, no, that's, that's a really good. Totally that I don't think about enough. So, so, so I really appreciate that. And I think sort of implicit implicit in our conversation has been two sort of core things. One, is that the way that you [00:34:35] fund work is through grants and two, is that the, the primary people doing the research are academics and I guess it just, w let's say, w w what is, what's the actual question there it's like, is it like, do you, do you think that that is the best way of doing it? Have you like explored other ways? Because it, it, it feels like those are sort of both you know, it's like has been the way that people have done it for a long time. [00:35:04] Adam: So there's, there's two answers to that question. The first is just to acknowledge that the Sloan foundation. Probably 50 out of the $90 million a year in grants we make are for research. And almost all of that research is done at universities, I think primarily because we're really funding basic research and that's where basic research has done. If we were funding other kinds of research, a lot of use inspired research research that was closer to kind of technology. We would be, you might be [00:35:35] funding people who worked in different spaces, but the kind of work we fund that's really where it's done. But we have another significant part of the foundation that funds things that aren't quite research, that the public understanding of science and technology diversity, equity and inclusion in stem, higher ed of course, much of that is, is money that goes into universities, but also into other institutions that are trying to bring about cultural change in the sciences badly needed cultural change. And then our technology program, which looks at all sorts of technologies. Modern technologies that support scholarships such as software scholarly communication, but as increasingly come to support modes of collaboration and other kinds of more kind of social science aspects of how people do research. And there are a lot of that funding is not being given to universities. A lot of that funding is given to other sorts of institutions, nonprofits, always because we're a [00:36:35] foundation, we can only fund nonprofits, but that go beyond the kind of institutional space that universities occupy. We're really looking for. You know, we're not driven by a kind of a sense of who we should fund followed by what we should fund. We're interested in funding problems and questions. And then we look to see who it is that that is doing that work. So in public understanding some of that's in the universities, but most of it isn't and [00:37:00] Ben: actually the two to go back. One thing that I wanted to to ask about is like It seems like there's, if you're primarily wanting to find people who are already doing the sort of work that is within scope of a program, does it, like, I guess it almost like raises the chicken and egg problem of like, how, how do you, like, what if there's an area where people really should be doing work, but nobody is, is doing that work [00:37:35] because there is no funding to do that work. Right. Like this is just something that I struggled with. It's not right. And so, so it's like, how do you, how do you sort of like bootstrap thing? Yes. [00:37:46] Adam: I mean, I think that the way to think about it is that you work incrementally. That is if, if once, and I think you're, you're quite right. That is in some sense, we are looking for areas that. Under inhabited, scientifically because people aren't supporting that work. And that's another way of saying what I said at the beginning about how we're looking for maybe interdisciplinary fields that are hard to support. One way you can tell that they're hard to support is that there isn't a support people aren't doing it, but typically you're working in from the edges, right. There's people on the boundaries of those spaces chomping at the bit. Right. And when you say, you know, what is the work? You can't do what you would do if you add some funding and tell [00:38:35] us why it's super interesting. That's the question you're asking. And that's kind of the question that drives what we talked about before, which is how do you identify a new area, but it's it it's actually to your point, precisely, it's not the area where everybody already is. Cause there's already a lot of money there. Right? So I would say. You know, if you really had to bootstrap it out in the vacuum, you would have to have the insights that we don't pretend to have. You'd have this ability to kind of look out into the vacuum of space and conjure something that should be there and then have in conjure who should do it and have the resources to start the whole thing. That's not the Sloan foundation we do. We don't operate at that scale, but there's another version of that, which is a more incremental and recognizes the exciting ideas that researchers who are adjacent to an underfunded field. Can't th th th th th the, the excitement that they have to go into a new [00:39:35] area, that's just adjacent to where they are and being responsive to that. [00:39:39] Ben: No, that's, and that's, it sort of ties back in my mind to. Y you need to do programs on that ten-year timescale, right? Like, you know, it's like the first three years you go a little bit in the next three years, you do a little bit in, and by like the end of the 10 years, then you're actually in, in [00:39:59] Adam: that new. No, I think that's exactly right. And the other thing is you can, you know, be more risky or more speculative. I like the word speculative better than risky. Risky makes it sound like you don't know what you're doing. Speculative is meant to say, you don't know where you're going to go. So I don't ever think the grants we're funding are particularly risky in the sense that they're going to, the projects will fail. They're speculative in the sense that you don't know if they're going to lead somewhere really interesting. And this is where. The current funding landscape is really in the federal funding. Landscape is really challenging because [00:40:35] the competition for funding is so high that you really need to be able to guarantee success, which doesn't just mean guarantee that your project will work, but that it will, you know, we will contribute in some really meaningful way to moving the field forward, which means that you actually have to have done half the project already before that's, what's called preliminary data playmate. As far as I'm concerned, preliminary data means I already did it. And now I'm just going to clean it up with this grant. And that is, that's a terrible constraint and we can, we're not bound by that kind of constraint in funding things. So we can have failures that are failures in the sense that that didn't turn out to be as interesting as we hoped it would be. Yeah. I, [00:41:17] Ben: I love your point on, on the risk. I, I, I dunno. I, I think that it's, especially with like science, right? It's like, what is it. The risk, right? Like, you're going to discover something. You might discover that, you know, this is like the phenomenon we thought was a [00:41:35] phenomenon is not really there. Right. But it's, it's still, it's, it's not risky because you weren't like investing for, [00:41:43] Adam: for an ROI. Can I give you another example? I think it was a really good one. Is, is it in the matter of the life program? We made a grant to a guy named David Baker, the university of Washington and hated him. And so, you know, David Baker. And so David Baker builds these little nanoscale machines and he has an enormous Institute for doing this. It's extraordinarily exciting work and. Almost all of the work that he is able to do is tool directed toward applications, particularly biomedical applications. Totally understandable. There's a lot of money there. There's a lot of need there. Everybody wants to live forever. I don't, but everybody else seems to want to, but, so why did, why would, why do we think that we should fund them with all of the money that's in the Institute for protein engineering? Which I think is what it's called. It's because we actually funded him to do some basic science.[00:42:35] Yeah to build machines that didn't have an application, but to learn something about the kinds of machines and the kinds of machinery inside cells, by building something that doesn't have an application, but as an interesting basic science component to it, and that's actually a real impact, it was a terrific grant for us because there's all of this arc, all of this architecture that's already been built, but a new direction that he can go with his colleagues that that he actually, for all of the funding he has, he can't do under the content under the. Umbrella of kind of biomedicine. And so that's another way in which things can be more speculative, right? That's speculative where he doesn't know where it's going. He doesn't know the application it's going to. And so even for him, that's a lot harder to do unless something like Sloan steps in and says, well, this is more speculative. It's certainly not risky. I don't think it's risky to fund David bay could do anything, but it's speculative about where this particular [00:43:35] project is going to lead. [00:43:36] Ben: Yeah, no, I like that. It's just like more, more speculation. And, and you, you mentioned just. Slight tangent, but you mentioned that, you know, Sloan Sloan operates at a certain skill. Do you ever, do you ever team up with other philanthropies? Is that, is that a thing? [00:43:51] Adam: Yeah, we, we do and we love, we love co-funding. We've, we've done that in many of our programs in the technology program. We funded co-funded with more, more foundation on data science in the, we have a tabletop physics program, which I haven't talked about, but basically measuring, you know, fundamental properties of the electron in a laboratory, the size of this office rather than a laboratory. You know, the Jura mountains, CERN and there we, it was a partnership actually with the national science foundation and also with the Moore foundation we have in our energy and environment program partnered with the research corporation, which runs these fascinating program called CYA logs, where they bring young investigators out to Tucson, Arizona, or on to zoom lately, but [00:44:35] basically out to Tucson, Arizona, and mix them up together around an interesting problem for a few days, and then fund a small, small kind of pilot projects out of that. We've worked with them on negative emission science and on battery technologies. Really interesting science projects. And so we come in as a co-funder with them there, I think, to do that, you really need an alignment of interests. Yeah. You really both have to be interested in the same thing. And you have to be a little bit flexible about the ways in which you evaluate proposals and put together grants and so forth so that, so that you don't drive the PIs crazy by having them satisfy two foundations at the same time, but where that is productive, that can be really exciting. [00:45:24] Ben: Cause it seems like I'm sure you're familiar with, they feel like the common application for college. It just, it seems like, I mean, like one of the, sort of my biggest [00:45:35] criticisms of grants in general is that, you know, it's like you sort of need to be sending them everywhere. And there's, there's sort of like the, the well-known issue where, you know, like PI has spend some ridiculous proportion of their time writing grants and it. Sort of a, like a philanthropic network where like, it just got routed to the right people and like sort of a lot happened behind the scenes. That seems like it could be really powerful. Yeah. [00:46:03] Adam: I think that actually would be another level of kind of collective collaboration. Like the common app. I think it would actually in this way, I love the idea. I have to say it's probably hard to make it happen because pre-site, for a couple of reasons that don't make it a bad idea, but it just kind of what planet earth is like. You know, one is that we have these very specific programs and so almost any grant has to be a little bit re-engineered in order to fit into because the programs are so specific fit into a new foundations [00:46:35] program. And the second is. We can certainly at the Sloan foundation, very finicky about what review looks like. And very foundations have different processes for assuring quality. And the hardest work I find in a collaboration is aligning those processes because we get very attached to them. It's a little like the tenure review processes at university. Every single university has its own, right. They have their own tenure process and they think that it was crafted by Moses on Mount Sinai and can never be changed as the best that it possibly ever could be. And then you go to another institution, that thing is different and they feel the same way. That is a feature. I mean really a bug of of the foundation, but it's kind of part of the reality. And, and we certainly, if, if what we really need in order for there to be more collaboration, I strongly feel is for everyone to adopt the Sloan foundation, grant proposal guidelines and review practices. And then all this collaboration stuff would be a piece of cake.[00:47:35] It's like, [00:47:35] Ben: like standards anywhere, right. Where it's like, oh, of course I'm willing to use the standard. It has to be exactly. [00:47:41] Adam: We have a standard we're done. If you would just, if you would just recognize that we're better this would be so much simpler. It's just, it's like, it's the way you make a good marriage work. [00:47:51] Ben: And speaking of just foundations and philanthropic funding more generally sort of like one of the criticisms that gets leveled against foundations especially in, in Silicon valley, is that because there's, there's sort of no market mechanism driving the process that, you know, it's like, it, it can be inefficient and all of that. And I, personally don't think that that marketing mechanisms are good for everything, but I'd be interested in and just like. Sort of response to, to [00:48:23] Adam: that. Yeah. So let me broaden that criticism and because I think there's something there that's really important. There's the enormous discretion that [00:48:35] foundations have is both their greatest strength. And I think their greatest danger that is, you know what, because there is not a discipline that is forcing them to make certain sets of choices in a certain structure. Right. And whether that's markets or whether you think that more generally as, as a, as a kind of other discipline in it, disciplining forces too much freedom can, or I shouldn't say too much freedom, but I would say a lot of freedom can lead to decision-making that is idiosyncratic and And inconsistent and inconstant, right? That is a nicer, a more direct way to say it is that if no one constraints what you do and you just do what you feel like maybe what you feel like isn't the best guide for what you should do. And you need to be governed by a context which assure is strategic [00:49:35] consistencies, strategic alignment with what is going on at other places in, in ways that serve your, you know, that serve the field a commitment to quality other kinds of commitments that make sure that your work is having high impact as a, as a funder. And those don't come from the outside. Right. And so you have to come up with ways. Internally to assure that you keep yourself on the straight and narrow. Yeah. I think there's some similar consideration about which is beyond science funding and philanthropy about the necessity of doing philanthropic work for the public. Good. Yeah. Right. And I think that's a powerful, ethical commitment that we have to have the money that we have from the Sloan foundation or that the Ford foundation, as of the Rockefeller foundation as are in it, I didn't make that money. What's more Alfred P Sloan who left us this money made the money in a context in which lots of people did a lot of work [00:50:35] that don't have that money. Right. A lot of people working at general motors plants and, and, you know, he made that work in a society that support. The accumulation of that fortune and that it's all tax-free. So the federal government is subsidizing this implicitly. The society is subsidizing the work we do because it's it's tax exempt. So that imposes on us, I think, an obligation to develop a coherent idea of what using our funding for the public good means, and not every foundation is going to have that same definition, but we have an obligation to develop that sense in a thoughtful way, and then to follow it. And that is one of the governors on simply following our whims. Right? So we think about that a lot here at the Sloan foundation and the ways in which our funding is justifiable as having a positive, good [00:51:35] that You know, that, that, that attaches to the science we fund or, or just society in general. And that if we don't see that, you know, we, we think really hard about whether we want to do that grant making. Yeah. So it's [00:51:47] Ben: like, I, and I think about things in terms of, of, of like systems engineering. And so it's like, you sort of have these like self-imposed feedback loops. Yes. While it's not, it's not an external market sort of giving you that feedback loop, you still there, you can still sort of like send, like to set up these loops so [00:52:09] Adam: that, so my colleague, one of the program directors here, my colleague, Evan, Michelson is written entire book on. On science philanthropy, and on applying a certain framework that's been developed largely in used in Europe, but also known here in this state, it's called responsible research and innovation, which provides a particular framework for asking these kinds of questions about who you fund and how you fund, what sorts of funding you do, what [00:52:35] sorts of communities you fund into how you would think about doing that in a responsible way. And it's not a book that provides answers, but it's a book that provides a framework for thinking about the questions. And I think that's really important. And as I say, I'm just going to say it again. I think we have an ethical imperative to apply that kind of lens to the work we do. We don't have an ethical imperative to come up with any particular answer, but we have an ethical imperative to do the thinking and I recommend Evan's book to all right. [00:53:06] Ben: I will read it recommendation accepted. And I think, I think. Broadly, and this is just something that, I mean, sort of selfishly, but I also think like there's a lot of people who have made a lot of money in, especially in, in technology. And it's interesting because you look at sort of like you could, you could think of Alfred P Sloan and, and Rockefeller and a lot of [00:53:35] in Carnegie's as these people who made a lot of money and then started, started these foundations. But then you don't see as much of that now. Right? Like you have, you have, you have some but really the, the, the sentiment that I've engaged with a lot is that again, like sort of prioritizing market mechanisms, a implicit idea that, that, like anything, anything valuable should be able to capture that value. And I don't know. It's just like, like how do you, like, have you [00:54:08] Adam: talked to people about, yeah, I think that's a really interesting observation. I think that, and I think it's something we think about a lot is the, the different, I think about a lot is the differences in the ways that today's, you know, newly wealthy, you know, business people, particularly the tech entrepreneurs think about philanthropy. As relates to the way that they made their money. So if we look at Alfred [00:54:35] P Sloan, he he basically built general motors, right? He was a brilliant young engineer who manufactured the best ball bearings in the country for about 20 years, which turned out at the nascent automobile industry. As you can imagine, reducing friction is incredibly important and ball bearings were incredibly important and he made the best ball-bearings right. That is a real nuts. And, but nothing sexy about ball-bearings right. That is the perspective you get on auto manufacturer is that the little parts need to work really well in order for the whole thing to work. And he built a big complicated institution. General motors is a case study is the case study in American business about how you build a large. In large business that has kind of semi-autonomous parts as a way of getting to scale, right? How do you get general motors to scale? You have, you know, you have Chevy and you have a Buick and you're a [00:55:35] Pontiac and you have old's and you have Cadillac and GMC and all, you know, and this was, he was relentlessly kind of practical and institutional thinker, right across a big institution. And the big question for him was how do I create stable institutional structures that allow individual people to exercise judgment and intelligence so they can drive their parts of that thing forward. So he didn't believe that people were cogs in some machine, but he believed that the structure of the machine needed to enable the flourishing of the individual. And that's, that's how we built general motors. That does not describe. The structure of a tech startup, right? Those are move fast and break things, right? That is the mantra. There. You have an idea, you build it quickly. You don't worry about all the things you get to scale as fast as you can with as little structure as you can. You [00:56:35] don't worry about the collateral damage or frankly, much about the people that are, that are kind of maybe the collateral damage. You just get to scale and follow your kind of single minded vision and people can build some amazing institutions that way. I mean, I think it's, it's been very successful, right? For building over the last decades, you know, this incredible tech economy. Right? So I don't fault people for thinking about their business that way. But when you turn that thinking to now funding science, There's a real mismatch, I think between that thinking about institutions and institutions don't matter, the old ones are broken and the new ones can be created immediately. Right? And the fact that real research while it requires often individual leaps forward in acts of brilliance requires a longstanding functioning community. It [00:57:35] fires institutions to fund that research, to host that research that people have long, you know, that the best research is actually done by people who were engaged in various parts of very long decades, careers doing a certain thing that it takes a long time to build expertise and Eva, as brilliant as you are, you need people around you with expertise and experience. There's a real mismatch. And so there can be a reluctance to fund. Th the reluctance to have the commitment to timescales or reluctance to invest in institutions to invest in. There's a I, I think has developed a sense that we should fund projects rather than people and institutions. And that's really good for solving certain kinds of problems, but it's actually a real challenge for basic research and moving basic research forward. So I think there's a lot of opportunity to educate people. And these are super smart people in the tech sector, right. About the [00:58:35] differences between universities and which are very important institutions in all of this and star tech startups. And they really are different sorts of institutions. So I think that's a challenge for us in this sector right now. [00:58:48] Ben: What I liked. To do is tease apart why, why is this different? Like, why can't you just put in more nights to your research and like come up with the, come out with the, like the brilliant insight faster. [00:59:01] Adam: Yeah. I mean, these people who are already working pretty hard, I would say, I mean, you, you know, you're of course, you know, this really well, there are different, I mean, science has, you know, has different parts of science that work on different sorts of problems and, you know, there's, there are problems. Where there's a much more immediate goal of producing a technology that would be usable and applicable. And those require a diff organism organizing efforts in different ways. And, you know, as you well know, the, the national, you know, [00:59:35] the, the private laboratories like bell labs and Xerox labs, and so forth, played a really important role in doing basic research that was really inspired by a particular application. And they were in the ecosystem in a somewhat different way than the basic research done in the universities. You need both of them. And so it, it's not that the way that say the Sloan foundation fund sciences, if everybody only funded science that way, that would not be good. Right. But, but the, the, the big money that's coming out of the, the newly wealthy has the opportunity to have a really positive impact on basically. Yeah, but only if it can be deployed in ways that are consistent with the way that basic sciences is done. And I think that requires some education and, [01:00:22] Ben: and sort of speaking of, of institutions. The, like, as I know, you're aware, there's, there's sort of like this, this like weird Cambridge and explosion of people trying stuff. And I, I guess, like, in addition [01:00:35] to just your, your thoughts on that, I'm, I'm interested particularly if you see, if you see gaps. That people aren't trying to fill, but like, you, you, you think that you would sort of like want to, to shine spotlights on just from, from, from your, your overview position. [01:00:52] Adam: I mean, that's a great question. I, I'm not going to be able to give you any interesting insight into what we need to do. I do think I'm in great favor of trying lots of things. I mean, I love what's going on right now that people are, you know, the, that people are trying different experiments about how to, to fund science. I think that I have a couple of thoughts. I mean, I do think that most of them will fail because in the Cambrian explosion, most of things fail. Right. That is that's if they all succeeded people, aren't trying interesting enough things. Right. So that's fine. I think that there is a, I think that a danger in too much reinventing the wheel. And I, you know, one of the things I, you know, when notice is, is [01:01:35] that you know, some of the new organizations, many of them are kind of set up as a little bit hybrid organizations that they do some funding. And, but they also want to do some advocacy. They're not 5 0 1 they maybe want to monetize the thing that they're, that they're doing. And I think, you know, the, you know, if you want to set a bell labs set up bell labs, there aren't. Magic bullets for some magic hybrid organization, that's going to span research all the way from basic to products, right. And that is going to mysteriously solve the problem of plugging all of the holes in the kind of research, you know, research ecosystem. And so I think it's great that people are trying a lot of different things. I hope that people are also willing to invest in the sorts of institutions we already have. And and that there's a, that there is kind of a balance. There's [01:02:35] a little bit of a language that you start to hear that kind of runs down, that it kind of takes a perspective that everything is broken in the way we're doing things now. And I don't think that everything is broken in the way we do things. Now. I don't think that the entire research institution needs to be reinvented. I think. Interesting ideas should be tried. Right. I think there's a distinction between those two things. And I would hate to see the money disproportionately going into inventing new things. Yeah. I don't know what the right balance is. And I don't have a global picture of how it's all distributed. I would like to see both of those things happening, but I worry a little bit that if we get a kind of a narrative that the tech billionaires all start to all start to buy into that the system is broken and they shouldn't invest in it. I think that will be broken, then it will be broken and we'll [01:03:35] miss a great opportunity to do really great things, right? I mean, the, you know, the, what Carnegie and Rockefeller left behind were great institutions that have persisted long after Carnegie and Rockefeller. We're long gone and informs that Carnegie and Rockefeller could never have imagined. And I would like that to be the aspiration and the outcome of the newly wealthy tech billionaires. The idea that you might leave something behind that, that 50 or a hundred years from now, you don't recognize, but it's doing good right. Long past your own ability to direct it. Right. And that requires a long-term sense of your investment in society, your trust in other people to carry something on after you to think more institutionally and less about what's wrong with institutions, I think would be a [01:04:35] helpful corrective to much of the narrative that I see there. And that is not inconsistent with trying exciting new things. It really isn't. And I'm all in favor of that. But the system we have has actually produced. More technological progress than any other system at any other point in history by a factor that is absolutely incalculable. So we can't be doing everything wrong. [01:04:58] Ben: I think that is a perfect place to stop. Adam. Thanks for being part of idea machines. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Is getting into orbit a drag. Are you tired of the noise from rockets? Well, now with Zipple the award-winning space elevator company, you can get a subscription service for only $1,200 a month. Just go to zipple.com/ideamachines for 20% off your first two months. That's zipple.com/ideamachines.

Join us at Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Wood, Leics to discover a thriving 10-year-old wood, chat royal trees and celebrate the Platinum Jubilee. We meet with site manager David Logan to explore the site's connections with the royal family, its special art features and some of the wildlife, sights and sounds you might encounter on a visit.  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk. Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, like all good podcasts let's start with a story and this one obviously is about a tree. It stands in a quiet part of central London called Lincoln's Inn Fields – the centre of the legal profession. It sits, well, just outside of a gated 11-acres of parkland in one of the otherwise busiest and noisiest parts of the country. It was planted in 1953 and since then the well-heeled men and women of the legal profession, who worked there, often sheltered under its branches, passed it by, both ignoring it and perhaps enjoying it. In the 70 years that tree has been growing, there have been many monumental events and world figures who have both entered and left the stage. When it was first planted, Winston Churchill was Prime Minister. Since then, entering and often leaving the limelight – Elvis Presley, Martin Luther King, Yuri Gagarin, The Beatles, Marilyn Monroe, John F Kennedy, video players were invented, personal computers and mobile phones were created, and there have been 15 prime ministers. But in all that time, as a living witness to that history of the new Elizabethan Age, there has been only one monarch – Queen Elizabeth II. No one has played such a long-lived part in the nation's history as the Queen. The tree that still stands by Lincoln's Inn Fields is one of literally millions that have been planted in the name of the Queen. Trees, of course, have an even longer perspective on time than Her Majesty but both stand as witnesses and part of history stretching back and reaching forward far beyond the timescales most of us live by. It's very fitting, therefore, that on this Platinum Jubilee the Woodland Trust has partnered with the Queen's Green Canopy Project to invite everyone across the UK to plant a network of trees, avenues, copse, and whole woodlands, in honour of the Queen's service and legacy From a single sapling in a garden to a whole wood, the aim is to create 70 Platinum Jubilee Woods of 70 acres each – every tree bringing benefits for people, wildlife and climate – now and for the future. And so, I took this opportunity to visit the Trust's Diamond Jubilee Wood in Leicestershire, where I met the man responsible for looking after the woodland, David Logan. David: So, this is Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Woods and it's a flagship site of a scheme that the Woodland Trust has to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So, what we endeavoured to do, and we've successfully done. We created 75+ woods of 60 acres or more and they were the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Woods. And, this is the flagship one of those woods, making it the largest single-owned block of native broadleaf woodland in the National Forest area. Adam: What immediate, I mean, we've not really gone in yet, but what immediately surprises me is this is really quite, well, it's a very young wood. Yet, it already but quite mature I mean, were these species, was this all planted? David: You're looking at a hedgerow and beyond that are the trees at the same height as the hedgerow. So yeah no, it is to me, you know, a refute to people who say 'why bother planting woods because you never get to walk under the bows of the trees' but these, only ten years ago this was planted and when you get into the site, you're definitely in a wood now 10 years later. Adam: those trees are all on the quite tall… David: They must be 10-12 feet tall. Adam: Yeah, looks even taller to me but then I'm unsure. Okay, go on, lead on. Tell me a bit about then what this site sort of is, why it's special, you know, biologically special? David: Because of, it's big! You get that really wild feeling when you're here. So, you know, 267 hectares are completely devoted to nature. There's not, well, I don't think there's anywhere else particularly like that in this part of the country. And, so yeah, it does stand out. We get lots of different wildlife: lots of birds, lots of invertebrates, butterflies and a really good show of wildflowers as well. We will see some of them. Adam: And what was here before? Was it just an empty field? David: No. So, it was an open cast coal mine. So, the whole lot was owned by UK Coal and then the central part of it where the lake is was the largest hole in Europe! When it was done 750,000 tonnes of coal came out. Adam: Wow! So, I mean, there's no sign of that at all, because open cast mining can be a real scar on the land, can't it? I mean, it doesn't look pretty and then yet is there still a hole, was that all backfilled? David: That's all backfilled yeah so all of the substrate that wasn't coal will have been stored around the site and then all put back in the hole. Adam: How long have you been here then? David: So, I've been site manager for three years now, so.... Adam: Right. David: Yeah, seen it develop.  Adam: So, what sort of, I mean, three years is not a long time, especially in the life span of trees, but what sort of changes have you seen over that period? David: I think the biggest one recently is we took away all of the tree tubes and the fencing that the original kind of planting scheme relied on to protect it from deer and rabbits. Yeah, which has completely changed the way the site feels. So, no more sea of plastic tubes and no more fences to get in the way. So, you can get to walk where you like now, as well as the wildlife can get around the site a bit easier, and it really has changed the way it all feels Adam: In terms of the local community engagement and their use of this wood, what's that like? David: It's been great. Yeah, been great right from the outset, so, we had a lot of community involvement with the original planting and then again with extensions, voluntarily. Adam: And how well used is it by the locals then? David: Yeah, yeah, very well used, very rarely do you ever come to the car park and there's less than five cars in it. Adam: We're coming to, I can see... what's that building over there? That looks very pretty! David: So, that is what we call the welcome barn. So, I've got two buildings I've got on this site. I've got the welcome barn and I've got bird hide as well. Adam: Wow! So, what happens? Is there someone with tea and crumpets in the welcome barn for us? David: Unfortunately not no, but there are some interpretation panels that tell you the story of the site and a nice mosaic that was made by the volunteers as well, at the beginning of the site. And then a little compost toilet round the back! Adam: Laughs Okay that's good, good to know, good to know! And tell me about the bird hide then. David: So, the bird hide is yet another lovely building overlooking a lake. So, the lake was kind of formed by the sinking of the coal mine and the soil around it, and yeah, so just a nice bird hide, we'll go and look at it. Adam: What sort of birds do you get? David: The most exciting bird that we've had here is a hen harrier.  Adam: Right! Wow! And look, and this welcome barn, this also seems to be unusual for a Woodland Trust site? You don't normally see these things. David: Don't normally get a building no, I'm lucky to have two! Adam: And look at... really, really lovely sort of mosaic on the floor – Woodland Trust mosaic which sort of looks quite 1950s like... Do you know how long this…? This can't be that...? David: No no, that was built when the barn was built and the site was created in 2012 and it's meant to, kind of, reflect the Roman history of the site. So, we've got a Roman road that we just crossed over there, and then we've got two areas of our underlining archaeology which we know are Roman on the site. And so, we know there's certainly a lot of Roman activity, hence a Romanesque kind of mosaic. Adam: So, just explain a bit about where we are. David: So, these are called the groves – The Royal Groves – as part of Royal Groves Walk, and as part of the creation of the site. There was a royal Grove created for each year of the Queen's reign, so, they're in a series of circles and each one has a post and people can sponsor the grove and the post and then they get their little plaque added to the grove post for their year. I believe that certain years become more popular than others for various reasons and, but yeah, you'll see all these names. My favourite one, I think, is just this one. This grove is dedicated to the dahlia. Adam: That's fantastic laugh dahlia appreciation society sponsors. So, tell me a bit about the trees we're seeing here, there's clearly a whole mixture. David: Yes. So, they're all native broadleaf trees. We have got birch and oak going round. There is no ash in this part of the wood because ash dieback was kind of discovered just as the planting was going ahead and so we're lucky. There is a compartment in the north which got ash put into it. You might see the occasional ash tree that's self-set. So, we've got a Jubilee Grove Trail going on at the weekend for the... to celebrate the Platinum Jubilee that's coming up, encouraging people to, kind of, wander around the trails, and we're going to have these tree rings, sections of a tree... one per decade of the Queen's reign and with various large events that happen within that decade there will be a tree ring. Adam: Will that be permanent? David: No, it'll just be for the month of June and there will be a large wicker crown somewhere onsite as well. Adam: That's all happening next weekend? David: Well, late this week, next weekend. Adam: You've got a lot of work to do. I'm amazed you've got the time spare to wander around with me. David: Yeah well. Yeah, yeah there's always... it's always a rare commodity time I'm afraid Adam. Adam: Now you didn't design this here? You're a new boy! David: I am a new boy here! Adam: So, who actually designed it? David: So, it was a lady called Kerrie who is here, here now. She knows lots more about the groves than me as the designer and helped put it all in. Adam: Brilliant, hi Kerrie! Kerrie: Hi Adam. I think I don't think I want to say that I designed the wood but... Adam: I was building you up! Kerrie: You were, thank you, but the layout of the groves and... I was certainly involved in the design of the concept and then how we spoke to individuals about whether they would like to be involved in this. So, it was an opportunity for families to dedicate their own acre of woodland and help us develop this wood, as well as being part of a feature that enables you to walk through the Queen's reign. Kind of, physically walk through every year of the Queen's reign, so it's really special. Adam: Which is amazing, isn't it?  Kerrie: Yes, it is.  Adam: Tell me a bit about this royal connection because this wasn't, sort of, just a random, sort of, marketing idea. There's a really good basis for this royal connection isn't there? Kerrie: Absolutely, yeah so, at the Woodland Trust in 2011 we started a project to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee – so, sixty years of the Queen's reign – and we wanted to enable people across the country to plant trees and create woodland. We did that in a number of ways. So, we had this aspiration to create sixty Diamond Woods each of 60-acres in size, which is a big, really big commitment! And we also encourage people to create Jubilee Woods which were much smaller copses of trees in community spaces. And we distributed trees to schools and communities all across the country. Actually, it was hugely successful so the wood we are here at today is the Woodland Trust's flagship Diamond Wood. And then we had landowners and organisations and local authorities who also wanted to be involved. We needed to create 60-acre woods, we didn't know if we'd get to sixty actually inaudible we did get to sixty, we surpassed that, we had seventy-five woods at that scale created! Adam: So, seventy-five 60-acre wood Kerrie: Plus woods yeah, amazing, so, it's the first sixty of the Diamond Woods and then we have fifteen woods that we call the Princess Woods. Adam: Amazing, and so this was to commemorate that reign, and this is a lovely theme though! You can wander through the years of the Queen's reign. But the royal connection to woods is long and deep, isn't it? Kerrie: It is yeah. So, we were really fortunate that Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal was patron of that project. But there's a long and well-established connection between the royal family and tree planting, and as part of the project that we did we wanted to map all the woods that were created, and the trees that were planted. So, we copied... Adam: So, for the, for the queen? Kerrie: For the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So actually, we took inspiration and sort of copied the Royal Record that had been done previously to mark a coronation. So, we actually have physically created and produced, published a Royal Record which is a huge red tome and that charts where all those trees are. And this is something that had already been done before the Queen's father. It's actually very heavy and so we have a copy at our office in Grantham, there is a copy in the British Library, and we gave a copy both to the Princess Royal and to the Queen.  Adam: There are lots of royal connections to trees and tree planting even beyond Queen Elizabeth. So, tell me a bit about that. Kerrie: That's right, yes. So, in the 1660s Charles II commissioned several avenues of sweet chestnut and elm in Greenwich Park and in 1651 he hid from pursuers inside an ancient oak during the English Civil War. and I think that's one of the reasons actually that you see so many pubs called the Royal Oak. Adam: Right okay because he hid in one? Kerrie: He hid in one yeah. Adam: Now you came... when did you see the hole in the ground? This was an open cast mine? Kerrie: Yes. Adam: You saw that? Kerrie: Yes, before any trees were here. So, I can't believe it's been several years since I've been here today, and it is now it's a wood! Adam: Yeah, there is no sign of that is there? Kerrie: No absolutely not, a complete transformation. Adam: It is amazing, isn't it? How quickly really that the natural world can recover. I mean, it needs a bit of help obviously and certainly in this circumstance. But no sign of what must have been really quite horrific bit of landscaping. Kerrie: Yeah. I think given how stark it felt at the beginning and when we first saw all trees grow in the ground here. It is genuinely remarkable for the transformation in a ten-year period of time! You can hear the birds, the trees are overhead, you know, we've seen butterflies, caterpillars... It really feels like nature has reclaimed this space it's really really exciting Adam: And when you start, I mean, look it's already done! It's a success! It looks fantastic, but when you started was this always a ‘this is gonna work' or at that stage did you think ‘this looks horrible, this might be a disaster, no one might come, no one might get on board with this project'? Kerrie: Well. I think we all had the vision, we all had hope. There are colleagues of mine that have been working at the Trust for longer than me who knew how this would look. I just didn't know that. This is one of the first projects I worked on so, to see it within ten years, the change that's the thing that I find you know really amazing! I thought I would have to wait much longer, and I'd be coming back with grandchildren to say look at this, but actually, here we are within a decade and it is transformed. Adam: Brilliant! Alright, well let's move on, let's find David again. Kerrie: Well, David on a previous visit has actually shown the Princess Royal around this wood. So, in terms of royal connections David has been a royal tour guide. Adam: Okay, so we have a living royal connection here? Kerrie: We do. Adam: Look here's a little bench, I might just sit here for a while. Brilliant, ah there's a dedication, what does it say? 'In honour of Sally Whittaker who believed in the beauty of wildlife and protecting it'. I have to say I always do like stopping at a bench and reading those dedications. Brief pause So, David, I'm not the only super important person you've taken around this woodland, am I? David: You're not the only super important person maybe, you are charming Adam! Adam: Ahhh thank you that's very sweet, very sweet laughs come on tell me about the even more important people you've taken around! David: So, yeah well, the most important person I guess would be Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, alongside Darren [Moorcroft] the CEO of the Woodland Trust. So, I was pretty nervous that morning, to be honest. The CEO, I'd never met him before and obviously a member of the royal family! But yeah no, I remember being nervous at the beginning, and then by the end of the day when I finally said goodbye to Princess Anne I was longing to spend a bit more time with her. She is incredibly charming, yes. Adam: Yeah. So, we come to a waymark, which? It's left, is it? David: Follow the blue and white arrows. Adam: Right so, if there are... there two different paths? Does blue and white mean anything or? David: Yeah. So, there's three waymarked trails around the site and we just happen to be happening on a little bit that's on two of those. So, there's the woodland walk which is the longest walk around the whole of the wood, and then there's the Royal Groves Walk. And then there's the lake walk as well Adam: Right so, explain a bit about where we're heading off to. You're taking me into the centre of the woods, it feels like? David: Yeah. So, we're continuing along the groves and eventually, we will get to a broad open vista, and you will be able to see most of the features of the site. Adam: So, we are already walking out to what looks like a less wooded area. David: Yes, we're kind of skirting the western edge of the site now and then... Adam: It's a big site, isn't it? how long will it take to walk over the whole thing do you think? How long are these paths? David: Like a good tour of every feature of the site here's looking at half a day really, probably, and that's with a bit of pace on. Adam: I've only got short legs laugh so I'd add a few hours. So, there's another one of these posts. Shall we just have a look? 1985 were through to, anyway so... David: Green woodpecker there, did you hear? Adam: Oh no wow! I missed out, I've been looking out for posts, I missed the green woodpecker. So, we're just coming out of a rather wooded area into – it suddenly opens up very dramatically – and look at that it's a very different view! So I can see a lovely wildflower meadow almost and then at the bottom a huge lake! A huge lake. So, this is where the old open cast mining just sunk down a bit and has since got naturally filled? David: Yeah. So, what you're looking at now is the epicentre of the open cast coal mine and obviously the wider landscape around it. So, yeah that's our lake and the end of the groves walk. So, you can just see the final three or four grove posts just heading off down the hill. And then this was an open area left to retain the view and then on the other side of the lake we've got a 5-hectare exclusion zone so there's no paths in that area. Just, no paths in the area, just to allow nature to completely have five hectares for resting birds et cetera. Adam: Let's go down because I think... David: We've got something else to show you. Adam: Sorry go on, rushing ahead, what is it? David: So, we got this piece of land sculpture that was created by an artist called Rosie Levitan and there are calls every now and again. We get somebody asking if we can put some kind of panel up to explain what it's all about, but the artist herself expressly asked that not to happen. So, I think she is more inclined to allow you to kind of figure it out for yourself or come to your own conclusions as to what it's all about. So, it was created with money from the Arts Council at the inception of the site. So, no money that could have gone into conservation went into creating this piece of art. But yeah, I'll leave you to... Adam: Sorry, this is it? This is it? David: This is it; I'll leave you to come to your own conclusions. Adam: So, when you said a piece of art, I thought you meant like a large statue of something out of wood, but actually, this is a sort of an earth tiered... almost like amphitheatre going downwards counts I think 5 tiers there. David: It's in a spiral so you can walk around the outside which takes a lot longer than you think! Adam: Laughs Yeah right I think I might take the direct route down, but to be honest, it seems like a brilliant place to put on a play! David: Yes! That's my thoughts as well, yeah I'd love to get a play here. Adam: Yeah! Have you ever gone down then done a soliloquy? David: Errr not, well, do you want me to? Adam: Yes, if you if you've got a piece ready laughing David: Unfortunately, I haven't. I mean I could maybe do a jaunty jig or something like that? Adam: Yes, well look, we're recording. David: Yes, well, no let's not! Adam: That's a shame laughing I think you probably come down when there are not many people around. So, if you ever do see a man in Woodland Trust clothing doing a jaunty jig at the bottom of this amphitheatre-like piece of art you know who it is and that he just wouldn't do it for us laughter very nice, very nice. Adam: So, you're gonna take me down to the lake now? David: Yeah, take you down to the lake. Adam: And it's there that we are going to meet one of your volunteers, is that right? David: That is right yep, a chap called Gerald. So, he's been volunteering with us on the site since the site was created and in various different roles Adam: And I've just gotta say it is beautiful walking down here because there are just huge numbers of buttercups aren't there? David: Yes, it is stunning, isn't it? Adam: It is stunning, it's like a sort of it's like a painting! It's like a painting, brilliant! David: This is our pond dipping platform. Adam: There's a cuckoo Bird song Adam: That's very good, so Gerald, sorry, we're distracting you. I can see you distracted by some swans coming over with their little babies. They're coming over to investigate you think? Gerald: I think they are yes! It's good to see it, I, they must be relatively young because a few weeks ago they were they weren't about so it's... Adam: Right. We'll let these swans investigate us as I chat to you so tell me. I'm told you do tonnes on this site. What was the local community's feeling when the trust took over this site and sort of explained what it wanted to do? Gerald: Generally, really good because you can imagine if you've got an open cast colliery on your doorstep a wood is a big improvement! Adam: Well, that's what I was going to say, because sometimes there is, sort of you know, some resistance or sort of misunderstanding about what is trying to happen. But here you go ‘surely this is going to be better for everybody'? Gerald: Yeah, so I think, overall, the mood was very good. There will be people who say yes but why don't you do this because this is better? We had some debates about whether we could put in some fruit trees, for example, and because we're in a sort of prime growing area in Leicestershire here. And there were debates about whether that was acceptable, whether they were native trees or not. But it was all good healthy discussion and it's interesting to see how the trees have grown and they have particularly grown well on this area here which was the open-cast. When you think – this all was disturbed ground that was put back – the trees have grown probably better here than they have in parts of what was the agricultural land. Adam: I have to stop because the swans have properly come up to us now. There they are! How involved do you get now, now it's well established what do you actually end doing? Do you come down here most weeks or? Gerald: It's a couple of times a month at least now. During the pandemic, it was sort of very limited of course, and well before that time, I used to do a monthly walk which was really... Adam: This is your guided monthly walk? Gerald: Yes guided, with a series of friends and colleagues. Adam: Do you have a favourite part of the wood? Gerald: Actually, probably near the bird hide just along from there. Adam: Why? Gerald: I don't know really. It's gotta mix, you got a mix with the water, you got the mix of the trees, a bit of the open meadowland here, and yes, the bird hide does add a bit of character to the place. I think we're lucky to have that there. Adam: I think David's waiting for me there. Shall we go over and have a chat with him? We've paused for a moment because we're just passing a black Poplar and a little plaque next to it saying it was planted by BBC Breakfast on 1 June 2012 in celebration of Her Majesty the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. Gerald: Yes, we have the two black poplars here. Adam: There's another one here. Was that planted by ITV for balance? Laughter Gerald: Oh no much more prestigious. Adam: Oh sorry, yes it was planted by Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal who is patron of the Jubilee Wood Project on the 1 of June 2012. And doing very nicely! Gerald: Yes, they are indeed! They've both grown quite a bit in the last year, I think. Adam: Very nice! So, what's the way to the bird hide? Is it round here? Gerald: Just go up to post on turn left. It's at the moment, hidden by a willow screen. It's a piece of willow art, although it's not particularly obvious Adam: You can see they've been bent over at the bottom haven't they to form a sort of willow fence. Gerald: If you were to look down on it from a drone it will be an outline of a skylark. It's a little bit overgrown and that's on our task list for next winter to prune that and try and weave in the lower bit. So, it's going to task our skills! Laughter Adam: We're going into the bird hunt now. We're in the bird hide. David, ironically having seen lots of birds the moment I get in here actually I can't – oh I think there is one over there – but do people, is this a good actual spot to be watching birds from? David: Yeah, yeah because it gives you that cover so the birds don't necessarily know you're here. It is quite a light bird hide though but it was created in conjunction with the Leicestershire Wildlife Trust, so they must have built a few bird hides, but yes. Adam: To be honest it's lovely weather today. But if it was raining a little bit this would be a fantastic place just to sit down for a while, wouldn't it? David: Yes, it would yeah. Just get out of the rain, I've done that a couple of times! Adam: Right, fantastic, alright well where are we going to next? David: So, there's just one last thing I would like to show you onsite which is just a short walk back up the hill. Adam: Okay, what is that? David: It is called the photographic plinth and so it's basically some encouragement for people to keep on visiting the site year after year. So, what we've got is we've got a plinth that you put your camera on and then a brick area that you supposedly stand on so you can get exactly the same photograph every year. You can visit the site and you can watch your family grow as the wood grows around you Adam: What a brilliant idea! What a brilliant idea. Okay, okay so David so there is a plinth. David: Yes, this is our photographic plinth. What it needs is updating, because obviously when this was made smartphones didn't exist and now you wouldn't really get a smartphone balanced on that! Adam: Yes, that's true David: It needs a little block bit putting on so you can rest a phone on it. Adam: So, it's not only the trees which have changed, it's the technology that it's referring to. I'll tell you what, I mean, obviously I'm going to have my photo taken aren't I? Can I give you my, I haven't got a camera, I do have my smartphone, so I'll go stand... I'll go stand here, and in a couple of years I'll come back and I'll have even less hair. Hold on a second – do I look better with my hat off or on? Pause Neither. I feel that was an undiplomatic pause I felt. David: What I was thinking is that I need to see both to answer correctly, that's why I was thinking. So, I'm gonna take it from the correct position. Click There you go Adam: I'm not confident that looked any good from the look on your face. I'm not going to look at it now I'll check it when I'm home. There is clearly a lot more to it than I've managed to explore today but what a wonderful treat, on a lovely, beautiful Monday, in this very special royal year! To come and celebrate that here! thank you very much David. David: that's quite alright Adam it's been a pleasure Footsteps Adam: Well, that was a great walk and thanks of course to everyone who arranged that. It's a fantastic place to visit especially in this Royal Jubilee year. If you know about these things, you can find it at grid reference SK 390132. The nearest train stations are Burton, Tamworth and Loughborough, although they're all a bit of a car journey, I have gotta say, from each of those stations. But if you're looking for a woodland perhaps nearer to you do have a look at the Woodland Trust website which has a special site to find a wood near you it is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that until next time happy wandering. Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Lying next to the River Avon just inside the Cotswolds, Avoncliff Wood is no ordinary wood. The site hosts one of the biggest trials in the UK to find biodegradable alternatives to plastic tree guards. As if that wasn't enough, it's also a living laboratory, revealing how ash dieback will really affect nature. Site manager Joe gives us a special behind the scenes tour to learn more. We also meet volunteer wardens Kay and James, and catch up with TV presenter Alice Beer who lives nearby. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, I've changed trains at Bath Spa for what appears to be a very small train which is taking me to Avoncliffe. Now, in fact, the train conductor has told me the platform is so short when I get there only one door is going to open. He came through asking “Is anybody getting off?” and I'm the only one, the only one. Well, I have to tell you, the station here is straight out of a 1930s style Agatha Christie film, that's what it screams to me. Beautiful signs, beautiful flowers, the River Avon just almost next door to the station, a great looking pub and down at the end of the platform one single man who I'm assuming is Joe Middleton with the Woodland Trust, site manager here and the guy who's going to show me around. Joe: So, welcome to Avoncliffe Wood in the Avon Valley just in between Bath and Bradford-on-Avon. We just crossed over the famous Avoncliffe Aqueduct and just followed the River Avon until we hit even Avoncliffe Wood which carpets the side of the valley across this area of the Cotswolds AONB, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, right at the southern end of the Cotswold AONB. Adam: There's very little woodlands right here, so what's going on in this first field? Joe: So, we're just at the edge of our woodland creation. So we bought 20 hectares, about 40 football pitches, of ancient woodland – untouched for generations – and to buffer that, to try and expand carbon storage and fight climate change and the ecological decline we're seeing we actually bought another 10 hectares, another 20 football pitches, worth of agricultural fields essentially and meadows which were very intensively grazed and we've planted that up with over 5,000 trees to try and get the next generation of trees in here. Adam: Wow, okay so shall we go through, have a look? Thank you. Joe: So just next to us as you can hear the birds singing away, there are blackbirds, robins and blackcaps in there. There's one acre, here, just on the right-hand side, which was actually planted up 25 years ago by a neighbour. So, the very small one acre square now 25 years later is teeming with you know 30-40 foot birch trees, willows, hazels and hawthorns, full of cherry blossom and hawthorn blossom, and birds nesting, tweeting, and insects buzzing all around us! It's quite rare these days! So hopefully we think everything we planted up here, all 5,000 trees would look like that in 25 years. A proper young woodland. Adam: And you've clearly, I mean, they're not uniformly planted so there's a big patch in the middle which you've got nothing and they seem to be done in clumps, so why have you done it like that? Joe: Do you want to know what that patch in the middle is? That's a sledging lane. Right well so we carried out community consultation when we first bought the woodland. We asked all the locals, we said look there's this really lovely kind of big expanse of fields all around the wood, we want to buy it, we want it to, you know, fight climate change, we want to try and do our bit for wildlife. And they said whatever you do leave us a sledging lane because when it snows here this hill is perfect for tobogganing down. Adam: laughs you see I thought it was going to be for some really technical reason! You need to do that for a very specific reason, I didn't realise it was gonna be sledges. Joe: There are also wide rides, you know, big areas that people can walk through. We've created a really good path network in here as well in some areas and natural regeneration so there are areas unplanted and there are areas purely for tobogganing fun in the middle of snowy winters. Adam: And why not? It's very important. Now, the thing that we can see in this immediate field is a lot of tree guards and well I'm also standing by a little sign which says biodegradable tree shelter. I always call them tree guards, but this was called tree shelter. Now that is not by coincidence. The tree guards are a huge issue, aren't they? Joe: Yeah, I mean with governments pledging to plant millions if not globally billions of trees to fight climate, you know hold onto carbon, stop floods, we have to be able to do it without using oil-based plastics. For the last 35 years people have just, every tree that's gone in you know, not every one, but most trees that've gone in have been planted with a giant plastic tree guard which doesn't biodegrade, it litters, it causes microplastics, and people… Adam: And are they reusable those plastic guards? Joe: They are to a certain degree, they're not easy to recycle, there are some better recycling schemes now just starting. But actually, probably one in three are reusable. But a lot of places are too far to go and get them, people don't bother they get left and derelict and are expensive to go and collect every single one, especially when you're planting hundreds of thousands. So the biodegradable alternative is the absolute key. Find something that naturally, you know, biodegrades away back into the soil, doesn't harm anything, it doesn't use oil. Adam: Right, I'm just going to go up to… So, this is a biodegradable one? Joe: Exactly. Adam: It looks sort of yellowish and quite canvas-like but it's very it's very firm, it doesn't feel, I mean that feels a sturdy old thing this. Joe: Yeah so, we've got 5,000 trees we put in. We are using some old recycled plastic ones, so we've been given a few, but actually we've got 16 different types of biodegradable alternatives to plastic here. So, they range from cardboard, you know, made from paper or mulch to biodegradable plastics, which the jury is out on at the moment, to actually resins and oils from things like cashew nut shells and pine resin. We've got a train coming past us! Train noise Two and a half years ago, when we planted the 5,000 trees in all these biodegradable guards, we launched something called Big Climate Fightback, a big Woodland Trust campaign to bring people out to help plant trees and do their bit. And actually, we ended up with over 250 people arriving one Saturday – spades in hand – on the trains in all the train stations. And the people in Bath, and Bristol and Bradford-on-Avon must have thought “what on earth is going on?”, with over 250 people arriving with spades on the platforms. And they came in here, they planted trees en masse – school kids, families, local groups. Everyone came here to try and plant trees and with that we, you know, told people about the problem of plastics and we've basically now got one of the biggest sites in the UK for trialling an alternative to plastic – to try and protect these trees so they get to five, seven years to get to a good height where they're no longer susceptible to browsing by deer, by rabbits, by voles, which is the main reason the shelters and guards are here to protect them. Adam: And correct me if I'm wrong but there is a sort of school of thought saying well don't use any guards. I mean it's now sort of established practice that you've got to use a guard otherwise the tree won't survive, but there is this sort of vague thought we never used to use guards in the distant past, so why have we suddenly got obsessed with them? Joe: I mean deer numbers are higher than they've ever been, it's a huge amount of browsing by deer with no natural predators, so it's complicated, that is the simplest answer, but putting up a giant 6-foot fence is probably you know the other solution which is in a lot of cases, depending on size, it can be much more economic, more practical. Very small areas – probably not massive areas, but medium sized – deer fencing is probably the answer, but then you've still got rabbits and voles you've got to fence out. So, doing nothing, over-planting, natural regeneration – we've got an area if you look up to the edge of the woodland we've left the buffer zone of about 20-30 metres around lots of this woodland, all around it, with nothing, we've just fenced it off and we're just going to allow the woodland to expand – every one of those berries and those nuts and seeds that drops into the ground will hopefully just have a, you know, wild natural generation. Like Knepp with a huge rewilding – that hope of what happens there doesn't happen as easily here but can take a long time. Hopefully that will establish woodland itself, but it may take 50 years. At the moment we've got a climate emergency on us and amongst us, so we have to do something now so planting trees is a very good quick solution. Adam: A huge issue because if we are planting for ecological reasons what we don't want to do is every tree comes with its own polluting plastic. I mean that's not the future. So, the answer to that question may well lie in the thousands of experiments you're carrying out in this field we're standing in. Joe: Absolutely. Adam: Right, well I've stopped us walking. We better… I better get my steps in. So, let's carry on. Where are we heading to now? Joe: So, we're gonna go and find our two volunteer wardens in a minute. Adam: So, we've got two volunteers hard at work. I can see just up the hill a bit. Joe: So, this is James and Kay who are both our two volunteer wardens. They've been working now replacing broken, rotted, fallen biodegradable tree guards, replacing the trees as they die as well, and these two have been working hard to help keep an eye on them for the last few years for us. Adam: It's got them hard at work! Joe: They are incredibly hard at work. Hey guys how you doing? Kay and James: Alright? Hi! Hello. Adam: They do have you hard at work! So Kay and James, so first of all before we get to what you're actually doing, why have you been doing it? What's your interest? Why did you volunteer to do all of this? Kay: Well, you've been a volun… a member of the Woodland Trust for about 25 years. James: Well, it's about 35 years now. Kay: Since this is really on our doorstep, this is a perfect opportunity to get really involved with the Woodland Trust. Adam: James, I mean, you've been a Woodland Trust member for a very long time. And, ah the debate around trees has changed enormously. Hasn't it? James: It has, and I am glad that people have suddenly valued trees. I was in the military but, before that, I was out of Kent, out near Canterbury and my uncle was a farmer with orchards and basically from the earliest days I knew about the trees, the names of trees. The pollards at the end of the field as windbreaks, the various wetland trees down in the floodplains around the Romney Marsh area. But I already had a fascination for the massive oaks, the spectacular deciduous trees on the horizon I think made this this countryside look like it does, so British, and so English, with these gorgeous round shapes, compared to a lot of conifers you see in all the European places I've been to. Adam: Okay, talk me through a bit about what you're actually doing here – I mean, you know, hammer in hand I can see. Kay: Hammer in hand, we're replacing some of the tubes that haven't stood up to the wind and the rain. We found that circular rather than rectangular and… Adam: works, circular works… Kay: circular works, because otherwise if it's square they act as a flag, especially cardboard ones. When they get wet, they just disintegrate – as you can see there's lots of bare sticks around here, so yeah, we're going through and replacing them with circular ones. Adam: Fantastic, now I know that the local community were very involved with the Trust, sort of when the Trust took over and sort of designed this site. Tell me a bit about what the local community feel. Kay: That was a great day. We had two schools frog marched in, and yeah, with their teachers and staff and they planted the whole area, which was lovely – they were naming the trees as they were planting them. I know the whole village got involved with planting 5,000 trees over a progressive few weekends and subsequently James and I have been replanting the failures. Adam: And James I mean very clear how engaged you are with this sort of issue but to tell me about the feelings then of the local community and what they what they felt when Woodland Trust first came here and how involved others are apart from you two. James: So, I'm very pleased that people are actually accepting, on the whole, that their backyard has been filled with trees and shrubs which are growing up for their children's lifetime. Kay: We have had some objections to this, but they haven't given their reason why. I assume it's because it's used when we do get snow, which is very rare, it's the sledging field. The Woodland Trust have kindly left a gap for sledging but then they moan that the grass is too long so you can't please everyone all of the time. Adam: But when it was first thought about, and I think it's really interesting isn't it, that you say the community are largely behind this, but I think if others are listening to you now where they may be talking about a woodland on their doorstep created by the Woodland Trust or their own sort of organisation – I wonder what people's first reaction, what were their concerns and hesitancies that you heard about that may have been overcome? Kay: People don't like change do they? And at the moment it's, yeah, it doesn't look picture perfect with the stakes and the guards on, but you've got to envisage what it will look like in 10-15 years' time. You've only got to look at the hedgerow, which is behind us now, and at this time of year which is beginning of May, it's absolutely gorgeous. The blossom's out, the fresh burst of the leaf is so colourful and vibrant, what's not to like about having a wood on your doorstep? And we were very lucky. Adam: Okay, well brilliant, well thank you very much. Look I don't want to disturb you anymore but that's brilliant. Thank you very much. Kay: Thank you! Adam: So, we're gonna head up now to the ancient woodland. Now this is certainly unique in any of the Woodland Trust sites I've been to, because normally the Trust actively encourages people to come in, but this is the only site I've been to where the ancient woodland bit you stop people from coming. Oh, look this is… Joe: This is our nifty little fenced area which… Adam: We're going through the barbed wire so just be careful going… So, explain to me why you've unusually actually kept the public out of the ancient woodland. Joe: Ash dieback really is becoming a huge problem across a lot of woodlands I manage. I manage about 30 woods across the West Country and every one of them has large amounts of ash that really grows really well on these sort of limestone soils and in these hills around the Mendips, the Cotswolds. Gosh there's a huge Buzzard just soaring over the edge of the woodland there. So, ash dieback is killing off essentially all our ash trees. Estimates vary at the moment. You know recently it was about 95% and then people said it was around 60%. So, the latest estimate is that about 60% of our ash trees will die over the next 50 years. How fast they die is the worrying thing but when we bought the wood in 2019 ash dieback was blowing across the landscape. It is a fungal disease. It naturally spreads. It came over from Asia originally in infected stock of nursery trees being planted out. So, no one's been able to plant any ash for the last three years. It's now being reported all the way from the east of Great Britain, all the way to the west, every year, until it's spread and spread and spread now our mature ash trees – whether they're in a hedgerow, along roadsides and country lanes, whether they're in woodlands – ash trees are essentially dying en masse, and this is killing off everything that lives and breathes on those ash trees. Adam: And the reason you're keeping the public out is because the trees are dangerous, are they? They might fall? Joe: Yeah exactly, so where you have a path or road or property you have to maintain, you know, what's reasonably practical safety for people to be able to walk under it. We realise if we were to create a load of paths, allow a load of people into now what is a fantastic ancient woodland, but it has never really had any paths in, it's been undisturbed for generations – over 100 years now – we don't think anyone set foot in it. So, we didn't want to create any paths because we didn't want to fell any trees, so we've kept it shut and all the locals have seemed to have bought into that and are really pleased this is just a woodland for wildlife. They're happy enough to walk around the fields where we've created woodland. Adam: And is it also something of a laboratory to see what happens to ash dieback? If you really don't step in and try and do anything? Joe: Exactly yeah, so, in so many woodlands across Britain because of the large amount of public footpaths, people are having to fell for health and safety reasons, so there's not very many examples where if no one goes in and nothing happens, what happens to that wildlife? Does it also dramatic- dramatically decline, with the trees losing? Or are there some winners? So, are there some decay species? Some fungi species? Some insects, beetles that love decay rotting wood that increase? So we don't really know. So, this site we've turned into a living laboratory, this is a unique case of where we are monitoring the species within the wood, how they react to ash dieback over time. Adam: We're now going into the bit of ancient woodland which the public are locked out of and so we have got this big “keep out, closed due to ash dieback” (sign). Joe: You have exclusive access! Adam: Brilliant, now I gotta say, I mean I've got to take a photo of this because this is a sea of amazing plants. I'm really, I want to be careful where I tread, I don't want to disturb anything. Because I'm completely ignorant, what are these plants? Joe: Can you smell it? Adam: Yeah sure, it's extraordinary! Joe: This is wild garlic. Adam: Is that what it is? Joe: Ramsons are all in flower at the moment and now we can see for literally, well, hundreds of metres is the white snowy tops of these wild garlic flowers that are just coming up across the thick green leaves and when there's no path in sight you have to be careful where you tread. So, luckily wild garlic's quite prolific, so we'll tread carefully, but an undisturbed wood looks like this. It's like a sea, or a carpet of sort of snow. Adam: That is extraordinary, isn't it? Yes it is a sea of snow and that's the advantage of actually having undisturbed places. Is that it, I mean, yeah sea is exactly what it looks like. These sort of white foaming tops to the rolling green waves of vegetation. Quite amazing. Joe: All you can make out are the occasional tracks of foxes, badgers, stoats, weasels, that have gone through it, maybe the odd deer as well. But insects seem to be declining catastrophically. The ideal analogy is, you know, people used to drive around even in the 80s and you get windscreens splattered with bugs and insects. It just doesn't happen anymore and that massive decline of insects, it's unknown the reason, it probably doesn't help with, you know, when people are using lots of pesticide sprays across the countryside, along with climate change, but as all those insects decline so do our birds that feed on them, so are our bat species – so they're not fat enough to basically get through the hibernation and then when they come out of hibernation and the young are born there are just not enough insects so they don't make it through the summer essentially, and they don't have another generation that makes it. So, yeah, bat species are declining at the moment, so that's one of the first things we've noticed, and well ash are declining en masse. There were a lot of these species of ash that we're monitoring that are all dying en masse. Adam: I mean so that, I mean, …you're telling me all these terrible things Joe: Yes, I know. Adam: But I mean that's important it's still amazing landscape still isn't it? Joe: Absolutely. Adam: And that's always been true with woodlands. That decay brings its own new life and decaying trees are very important parts the of the ecosystem, but even given all of those challenges that you talk about are there any, are there any high points, any reasons for optimism? Joe: Well, wild garlic's obviously doing really well in this particular wood! But there will be some species that do, really, there will be some species of butterfly that you know do really successfully with the increased amount of light. But one of the best success stories, the best things you can do to feel positive about it is to go back out into those fields, plant the trees, the next generation, so that if some of these woodlands do suffer for whatever reason then we've got far more woodland habitat. We need to increase our woodland cover from about 13% to 20% fast and then if we get 20% – we've got the shrubs, we've got the tree species, got the rewilding areas – to be able to provide those homes for the species that aren't doing so well. That's the key I think is to plant the next generation, get there quickly. Our woodlands have a fantastic history and have been managed over time. This is just the next phase in the management to basically keep an eye and ensure our guardianship secures for that next generation in the next 50-100 years. Adam: Well I'm going to leave Joe to smelling his wild garlic, because TV presenter and journalist Alice Beer, who I used to work with, I know lives not that far from this woodland. Now I know she's out and about today so I'm going to call her on her mobile to discuss what the countryside around here means to her and her family. Okay, so just Alice first of all we should explain a bit about our history, so everybody… Alice: Oh must we tell everybody? Do you think we should? Adam: I think we should share a little bit. I used to open letters on Watchdog which was a massive massive programme at the time and I can't, do you remember how many people watched it? I can't Alice: Well I don't know I'd come to watchdog from That's Life and That's Life, which was before you were born Adam I'm sure, had 15 million viewers in its heyday and I think Watchdog was around 7 million viewers, which now is completely unheard of, but then you know it was just 7 million people watching it and more importantly 7 million people putting pen to paper. No emails, pen to paper, and thank God Adam Shaw was in the post room! Adam: Yes I was opening the 7 million letters with one or two other people and Alice was much more senior, so we would come to pass those stories onto Alice and of course, you are now, what's your official title? Alice: I suppose I'm actually probably daytime television presenter but I'm far too much of a snob to say that! I kind of dip in and out of various things trying to still help the little guy or pass on information. Adam: You have a regular spot on a very big programme, This Morning? Alice: Well, This Morning, yes, it's every day, it's now two and a half hours, they keep extending it! I am waiting for it to bump up against the Six O'Clock News soon! But This Morning it was, “can you do a piece on brisk walking and the health benefits”, as a result of some survey that came out, so here I am for the second time today brisk walking and broadcasting at the same time which is fantastic! Adam: Very good! Don't trip over! You've got a couple of dogs with you haven't you as well? Alice: I have, I've got Stanley who's my five-year-old schnoodle and his girlfriend Tilly and there are times when they become quite amorous in the long grass but I'm going to try and keep it clean for your sake! Adam: I knew you when we used to work in Shepherd's Bush in London, but you are now a country girl aren't you? Alice: Yeah, wellies welded to my feet! I grew up in suburbia and in North London suburbia and the countryside wasn't really important to me, but my parents took me out, took me and my sister out walking quite a lot. There was always “shall we do the walk through the woods”, “should we do the walk through the bluebell woods” which is slightly longer or “should we go up and round” which involved the hill. So, there was always a consciousness of walking in the countryside as a pleasant thing to do, but as we've got older, the countryside has become more important to me and we have been doing that thing, my partner and I have been doing that thing where we're trying to move out of London and we've settled on this beautiful village, beautiful functional village not far from Malmesbury in Wiltshire, which is where I am now, walking alongside the River Avon. So not too far from Avoncliff and the same body of water sort of flowing past me which is rather nice. Adam: How lovely. I know, I've seen you on This Morning as you're talking about wellbeing, and in terms of actually, with your consumer journalist hat on talking about the gadgets you could buy to help with wellbeing and having lights I think that show, sort of, natural light. I mean, how important do you feel it's been for you and your family during these rather difficult times to have access to nature and the outside? Alice: It's been everything to me. Everything. I've got teenage girls in fact it's their birthday today, their 19th birthday today, so for them probably it spells isolation for them because they didn't grow up in the countryside, or this this particular part of the countryside, so you know this means being away from their friends, but for myself and my husband it's been, it's been really important. For me to leave the house and walk in space because in London everything has felt very close and very claustrophobic and I'm mentally not good at that at all! So, I'm incredibly lucky to be able to breathe and give myself sort of mental and physical space away from other people. I was able to work from here, so I did sixty live broadcasts from, in effect, my back garden during lockdown. Adam: It's really interesting that you talk about your girls sort of feeling a sense of isolation because they came from the city and now are in a very rural area. I often find that it's a curious thing to get one's head round because really the nature debate about sustainability and trying to be better for the world is often very strongly led by young people. Alice: Oh it's theirs, it's completely their campaign! But I'm not sure that they associate it with, I mean, I feel like I'm treading on dangerous territory speaking, you know, putting words into their mouths because they're both very eloquent, quite passionate girls. I feel that I'm not sure that they would stand out in a field and say “we must protect this”. Probably coming from the city, they feel more that they see stuff, they see things going into bins, they see landfill, smoke, pollution. So, they see the big preservation of our world from a city perspective, probably more than standing in a field and thinking “oh this must never have, you know, thousands of houses built on it”, which is what probably makes me panic as much as anything. Adam: Do you get a sense of a change in people's attitudes in the way they behave, I mean, I think people talk about the need for ecological sustainability. I see amongst my friends and family, I have to also be careful about what I'm saying, I see less actually willingness to change personal behaviour than a willingness to say it's important, but they don't do an awful lot. Do you see that real difference? Alice: I'm a huge hypocrite, but I am now suddenly, it was probably about six months ago I was putting something in the bin, and it sounds like a strange Greta Thunberg epiphany, but it slightly was. I was putting some plastic in the bin, and I was trying to clear out a room and I was thinking this is going nowhere! This can't be recycled. This has to go underneath the ground, and this is not going to break down. I had a sort of panic about the fact that well if I was doing this and everyone was doing this and though I sort of have had that epiphany and I am changing my behaviour, and nothing particular triggered that, apart from me clearing out a bedroom and realising I had too much stuff. You know, which is odd, but you know, in terms of the big picture in the world I think it's very hard to make individuals feel responsible when we see big companies not taking responsibility. It's that sort of, well what difference is little me gonna make? And I've sort of had that, well I'm going to make a difference, so I will. I've had that moment and I think we have to all have that moment and I'm just about to fall into the River Avon, which could be interesting! I'm trying to encourage the dogs to have a drink. There you go guys, come on, look Tilly have a drink! Yeah well they're sort of having a drink, but I'm the one that's most likely to go in here. Adam: Well look, Alice, I feel split because I quite like the sound effect of you going in to end this, it'd be a great end wouldn't it! But on the other hand not a great way of re meeting after all these years. Look I will let you get on with your walk but thank you very much, thanks a lot. Alice: Thank you, thank you. Adam: Well, let's leave Alice Beer there and indeed all our friends at Avoncliff Woods. I do hope you enjoyed that and if you want to find a wood near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood and you can find a wood that's local to you. So that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that. Until next time happy wandering! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Today's conversation with Adam Kawalec on Income follows Impact fits under the P of Pricing of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Adam is a former top-level manager turned life & business coach, co-founder of a unique and internationally recognized personal trainer school, who has built a thriving business based on referrals only. With over 16 yrs of experience in change management, leadership and mental training Adam helps heart-centered coaches and consultants get paid doing what they love without having to sacrifice their life; work; or bank balance. Adam is also a founding member of the Humane Marketing Circle and I got to reference his work in the Selling Like We Are Human Book! Adam's favorite quote: "If you could only love enough, you would be the most powerful person in the world - Emmet Fox In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and... How can we move the pay line, give before we get? How do we avoid over-giving and burnout? Is money the only form of income? How else can we define success? What do we do with our ambition, our ego? Adam's Resources   Adam's Website For being a listener get access to the top 3 expert interviews from the Authentic Business & Marketing Summit hosted by Adam Connect with Adam on: Instagram Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Adam, how are you today?  Adam: I am great. Thank you so much for, for having me here today.  Sarah: Yeah, I w we've been planning this for, we can say over a year, because it only has been over the span of a year, so I'm so excited to have you here with us today and talk about yeah. And intriguing topic. So you so graciously, let me share. Your concept of, you know, moving the pay line or you'll have to explain whether they are different concepts. This idea of Income follows impact or moving the pay line, whether they're the same or different [00:08:00] ones. But yeah, we do, we did share them, include them in the selling like we're human book. And so I'm just excited to expand on this concept a little bit. So maybe you start off by yeah. Telling our listeners. Maybe how you came up with this and, and then explaining the different ones, or if they're all the same, just going into details there.  Adam: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Well, so we, we, you and I, we decided to talk a little bit more about the income follows impact, which is just a really clever way I think, to kind of get people's attention. And we'll expand on that shortly and I, you know, for anyone who picked that up there is there is an exercise. There is a mind set thing that I often do, which I call move the pay line, which is. Which you graciously shared in your book. And I'd love to expand on that as well. And and th they, it goes hand in hand. It demonstrates how you actually deliver on the [00:09:00] promise of income follows impact. So if I, if I jump into it and start to kind of define. Impact means is, is really, if you listen to it, what we're saying is if you make an impact, if you make a big enough difference in someone's life and or business, there is a way for you to make a good living or you know, find some form of revenue at the end of that. And this really comes from the idea of, I think I picked this up from Seth Godin where this, like, people are only willing to pay for something they see as. Like, so they, they, they, they, you know, they need to see value. And throughout my career, working with, with clients and, you know, having conversations and sales conversations and enrollment calls and all of that, what I notice really makes the difference is to give people an experience versus explaining the concepts. So, for example, if, if I'm doing business coaching or if I'm doing something around life, coaching [00:10:00] me avoiding just to explain what it could do for them, me instead showing them what that could do for them always moves them closer to that decision of. Let's let's do this. Let's continue. And so through the work I did with my coach anchors Jane, at that point, we came up with that idea, that income follows impact. The more impactful you can be as a coach, the less you will struggle as a coach. Because a lot of times we spend, we spend time on creating content. We spend time in being in conversations, and we're talking about coaching. We're talking about. The outcome what's possible. And this applies to anyone. If you're a trainer healer consultant, we're talking about, about the things that we can create, Moses actually giving them some form of experience of that. So that's what I applied to my [00:11:00] business. It's what I try to help my clients see as well that wherever you can Well, let's not just say let's wherever you can, but, but rather say where you can try to give the experience before the concept trying to give content before the concept, like give them context because then they will actually know. So that's kind of the income follows impact. And to be honest, Anytime. I feel a bit anxious about my bank accounts or the growth of my business. I can, I can go back and I can self-reflect and I can say, well, how much of a difference are you making? How much of an impact are you making? Right. And to be honest, it actually always puts me in a more creative mode when I go like, Let's focus on impact here. Let's focus on making a difference versus right. Let's make more money. I, I just happen to believe, you know, be part of that group of people who are not necessarily driven by money. But impact, I mean, you, you talk about impact pioneers, [00:12:00] right? That's, that's definitely the, the, the tribe I subscribed to. And, and so, yeah, I think that's quick and easy explanation of income follows. Yeah,  Sarah: I love that. And what you just said, there's such a different energy to it. When you say, you know, when you're kind of in this scarcity thinking, feeling mode and you're like, well, Should I hustle more to, you know, get more clients and then that feels like more scarcity, or should I look at how can I make more impact? And that just kind of has this opening energy. And it feels like, wow, that is very, very different. So I love that. I love that. Obviously that. Another kind of marketing concept that comes to mind is, is this idea of the know like, and trust factor, right? So I think that plays into it because if we are just talking about [00:13:00] things, Well, how will people know, like, and trust us. And so by really experiencing you and what you can deliver that helps with that know like, and trust factor. Maybe. Maybe we could give some examples because in the typical marketing you know, path or funnel where we usually think of the typical e-book or the free audio download or things like that. So yes, that could be an option, I guess, to, you know, work with your impact or, or trust factor, but you are talking about experiences and, and. I think that an ebook would count as an experience of podcast may count as an experience, baby. But yeah. Tell me more of what you mean by experiences.  Adam: Mm, good. Yes. So I think you're right. [00:14:00] There are degrees to facilitating an experience and really what I mean when I'm saying experience. We want to go for trying to give an experience of what it looks like to work together. So now obviously an ebook can sort of do that. And I would even say if it's an ebook, you do want to make sure, I think my personal recommendation is make sure that it's about. What I mean by that is like, don't try to prop yourself up too much, like make, make your clients, your customers, the hero of that story, because it gives the, it gives the experience of working with you where it's like, you're going to put them in the center and you're going to focus on them so it can work because they can feel like, wow, he's, he's, he's really committed to my growth, our growth. Wow. She really sees the individual. That alone can shift things right away. And then obviously we can move up the ladder and we can go to podcasts, [00:15:00] which is probably even better because you get to listen to the you know, the, the tone of the boys the pacing, the expressions the warmth or the, you know, the depth to whatever we were able to convey. So that's another way Actually I just  Sarah: get in there and ask something because I was just listening to a podcast today and I made this reflection where I think the last. The less kind of, you know, bells and whistles a podcast has to me. So, you know, how we all kind of got used to the super intro with Barbara, like you hired this voice and it sounds like really, whoa, look at this show and here is Sarah athletic coach. So the less kind of professional, almost, maybe the word is it is. The more, I feel connected to the host. And I was wondering [00:16:00] about that because I, I kind of given myself permission over the years to do these muse episodes where it's just me talking and, you know, they're way easier for me to create. I just hit record and do some audio editing. You know, not cutting out any words, but just kind of improving the audio and, and then off, off I go. But it was a big struggle to think. What are people going to think? This is not as professional as all the other ones, but then today I noticed, you know, what I love does podcast host, but yet I feel so detached because I don't feel like I'm having a real experience with them. I just feel like. Talking to a huge audience. What do you think  Adam: about that? Well, I think you're really onto something here. And especially going back to what you represent with the humane marketing and humane selling, I think authenticity is, is what comes up for me, right. That [00:17:00] we want to have real authentic connections to the people we surround ourselves with. And it is part of what I actually think is. What I talk about when I talk about impact, because one of the, I think misunderstandings or myths possibly in our industry of, of being a helper is that we need to be gurus. We need to be put on pedestals and we need to be. Celebrities and you know, for anyone who can't see this, I'm smiling, as I'm saying it, there's a little bit of a, like, you know, a bit humor in this, of course there's nothing wrong with having a following or something like that. It's just I believe that the power in, and I'm going to refer to coaching we're helping the power of the helping happens through the relationship. Because I can give you all the best tools in the world. And if our relationship is off, most likely you're not going to receive them. Like you're not going to receive them the way I intended for them to be received. Because we're, we're having an [00:18:00] issue with how we're listening to each other, how we're connected. And if we start our relationship where you look at me and put me on a pedestal, meaning that you're looking at. At me a chance to solve we're already in an unbalanced relationship. If you're looking up at me, you might be afraid of making mistakes. You might be afraid of confessing that you didn't do your homework that you failed. And all of a sudden we could go as deep as we need to for your sake, because you're not being honest. So my faith. My celebrity status is actually damaging the relationship and therefore the potential of my clients right now. You also don't want to have them look down upon you, like, which is really weird if they did. But what I mean by that is we don't want to be, and this might be a touchy subject, but I'm going to go ahead and say, we don't want to overshare. We don't want to be over vulnerable [00:19:00] vulnerabilities are powerful. And I just think we, we want to be mindful around that. And what I mean then is we, we want to avoid role reversals where our clients, all of a sudden feel like they need to comfort. That creates a very weird dynamic. And yet I see this happen. I see this happening group programs. I see this happen in conversations where we overshare something that we are simply not in a, in a space to share yet. It's to rule now where we do want to be is really human to human. I leveled. If that's how you say it, right? Because at that point it's a more mutual, respectful human connection. And I think anything that we can to provide that kind of expensive. In an ebook, a podcast, a video, even in our emails, right? The more we do that, the, I think that's strong with the relationship [00:20:00] becomes and the better for, for the client in terms of the potential. So what that looks like is probably very individual based on who you are and what your brand is about. And as you said, perhaps it is about less bells and whistles and more connection. Sarah: Okay, thanks for exploring that side. Tangent. It's just, yeah, it kind of was brought up today. So I was like, oh, let me ask him that. So let's go back to the, the idea of yeah, we were talking about podcasts as being one of the things that we can offer. What would be some other experiences?  Adam: Well, another thing you brought up as an example in your book selling like we're human. You, you went on to explain a little bit about when I hosted my summits and the beginning of last year, where I, as far as I could, as much as I could, I was sending personal video messages to everyone who signed up [00:21:00] and it was a free event to sign up for. There were quite a few messages to go, go out. And I sent a video message where I would S you know, wave and say mentioned the name and say, I'm glad to have you here. I hope you find this interesting. And I used to add something personal based on that day. And, and, you know, the mood I was in I add some software to help me with arts. So that made it easier. Cause it might be a bit tricky to figure that out otherwise. And that was just something that I wanted to commit to as a way to already give people way before they even joined the, the the summit or way before they even start to reaching out to me, they are hearing my voice. They're seeing my body language. They're seeing my, my, my facial expressions. They're getting an experience. So that's yet another way. So again, give the experience a way before people even start working.  Sarah: Yeah. And they, they really feel, and I think they felt [00:22:00] those people who signed up for your summit, they felt heard and seen as, you know, participants of the summit. It's not just a, you know, here's a mass email that we all know by now. Okay. Yeah. He's not really talking to me personally. So having that personal touch it's of course. Yeah. It's, it's one of the ways to, to create impact. I, I couldn't agree with you.  Adam: I guess would it be helpful for me to expand on the move, the pay line concept? So you kind of give people an idea of what can they do for, for themselves. So the idea that I was fortunate enough to Shane in your book move the pay line is is this idea that. Well, w we had that analogy in the book. So let me start with that. So you picture yourself on a beach where you got your bare feet in, in, in the sand, and you have a stick in your hand and you, you draw a line from top to bottom towards your feet. So there's like two columns there, two [00:23:00] sides beyond that, that line in the sand and to the right of that. And the right column. You start writing things that you do with your clients. Once they sign up with you on state pay you and they start working with you in, in some form of container, you start adding, like I'll send out a, a workbooks. I'm sending out my, my ebook that I wrote two years ago. I give them. Access to my oh, summits that I used to run. We create strong agreements. I give them access to me via WhatsApp and of course we have conversations and all of that, just just a few examples right now, if we've listed an exhausted our resources or ideas to what we do, once someone becomes our class. We can then move on to the left side of that line, to the left column. And on this side, we're asking ourselves, what could I borrow from the right side onto [00:24:00] the left side, left side being, how can I give people an experience before they pay me? So now the line symbolizes a before and after payments. So all of a sudden. I can look at all the things I provide as a part of the experience of being a pain client. Other versions of that I can share already way before they become my clients. Maybe I could give access to parts of my summit. Maybe I can get out my e-book. Maybe there are ways for me to send messages that are really directed to that individual justice. I would, once they become my clients. And so all of a sudden we're moving the pay line in, in terms of. It was kind of moving it up into what we already offer as as for our pay paying client. Again, this way, it just helps. We don't have to come up with something new. We can just revise and review what we have and go, how can I put this out? How can I give [00:25:00] people access to this? How can I provide an experience before they have to pay?  Sarah: Yeah. As you know, in the selling like we're human book, I'm calling the signposts. That that's what a signpost is to me is this idea of, you know, gently leading your ideal client along the path to maybe eventually end up in your serene garden, where you do have a sales conversation, but in the meantime, you give them all these benches where they can. And they can sit down and, and yeah. Kind of you know, listen to your podcast or to your summit and whatever, not you're sharing with them. And what I like also, what you said is. That it doesn't have to be a, you know, something new, a new, a whole course that you're creating or, you know, how we get into, like, there's a lot of talk about funnels and how we come up. People come up with these really complicated funnels and [00:26:00] it doesn't have to be complicated. It can really just be, well, what am I already doing? And pull some things to the other side. So I love this concept of just saying. Well, what. Do I do already that, you know, doesn't cost me anything, obviously we're not wanting you to, you know, necessarily spend, you know, free coaching or, or any of that. That's up to you if you decide to do that. But, but that's not the idea here. It's like, what do I have already that I can give for free and help with that, you know, guidance towards the serene garden. Yeah. I love that.  Adam: If I can expand just quickly on this. This is actually something that was really is really current for me. And I've, I've been fortunate enough now to be in really strong conversations around this. I have noticed, and it's something that I've taken for granted for quite some time. And I've noticed that [00:27:00] asking questions. Is is definitely the way. I mean, especially in my case, I'm a coach. So asking questions is kind of what I do. So. When I slow things down and now we're talking about people who are reaching out or coming in by email or WhatsApp, there's an introduction being made and I'm connected with someone. Normally the typical thing that perhaps I would do or anyone else would do is just because that person came in. We know there's an interest. We say, fantastic. Here's my Calendly link or here's my Yeah. Any, any calendar link that we use to schedule something or something exactly. Sign up. Hey, and let's get on a call, right? That's a typical thing. Cause we're really quick on it. If we, first of all, I think pre-qualifying can be useful. And especially because this is the side I'm seeing right now, the really cool thing is because I've been really busy. So I've been having to pre-qualify people I've been having to extend some of them [00:28:00] time I spend with people. And so I've been asking more questions and the really cool thing happened just a couple of weeks ago, where someone came into my sphere and. I started asking questions and I kept asking questions and I had her come up with, well, it seem deeper and deeper. And as like, even the first message I sent her, she was like, oh my God, those are great questions. And this is also a coach. So I found that really humbling that she felt like, oh, those were really good questions. And we kept going the day after. I receive randomly from my website, someone going through my application form to sign up for a free conversation with me. They went through, they scheduled a conversation with me and usually I have an idea of who's coming in and who's not. So this was a random person. I couldn't recognize the name. And we were starting having a conversation because of the email coming in. And she, she told [00:29:00] me, well, I came in because of. You're in conversation with another woman and she recommended me to reach out to you and that's the woman I'm texting with. So she's already having an experience of the possibility that's on offer here so much so that she's willing to even say to someone she knows, you know what? You produce, probably have a look at his website. She'd probably look into this guy and that that woman then goes through and kind of comes out the other side of. In my calendar right now, I'm sharing that just to say, kind of highlight the power of again, giving the experience. So even before I'm accepting anyone before we get on a call before those money exchanged, she's experiencing the possibility of work together through the questions through me, having her see. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah, that is powerful. And instead of, you know, maybe increasing the filters and saying, no, let me [00:30:00] block you out. We can just engage in the questions. And from there still then decide, you know, is this a good fit or not yet?  Adam: And you mentioned this thing that it doesn't have to cost a lot. And I just want to say that, that part of what I tend to do is I send other people's resources. I've sent your book to people. I've made sure that they listen to episodes of your podcast. I have a list. I got a long list. I call the ultimate resource list. Right. And I just keep adding things there. If I watch a really good YouTube video, I'll add it to that. Now we can send other people's results. And we can say, Hey, if you enjoy that, we should get on a call and explore that. Right? So already asking questions, sending them useful resources, having them do some homework, even before they start working with us, having them experience transformations way before they stopped paying us is a beautiful way to introduce the idea of the experience rather than the concept.[00:31:00]  And I'm not going to say any more because clearly I can talk about this forever, but it's, I hope we're giving some ideas to the, the audience, the listeners on how they can start doing pieces of this themselves.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, I liked that a lot. This, this idea of experience versus I guess transaction, I, the word that comes up, so yeah. Yeah. I want to steer you in another direction. I think a lot of the listeners they are. And you notice you're in the circle, we're you know, heart-centered entrepreneurs where impact pioneers. So we are, you don't need to tell us, you need to give before you get usually that's, you know, we're good at that. And so I think that is a great advantage. And it can also get to the point where it becomes a disadvantage or it becomes a challenge. I know I share about the, my over-giving [00:32:00] burnout in the marketing, like where human book. And I know that you had kind of have a, an over giving or, or just kind of a burnout moment as well in. Previous career. So maybe tell us about the, that burnout story and what it was linked to you. And then. Yeah, how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we still give, and yet also make sure that we are, you know, safe and healthy and happy.  Adam: Yeah. Th this is an important topic, especially for us. You said heart centered entrepreneurs. So my own personal experience and I I've, I've had it several times. Like it's, it's, you know, I think it's, to me, it was just, it's a tendency, it's a strength. And it's also one of my. Greatest. Potentials. So in, in my corporate career I had a burnout because I've just continuously saying if only I have X, then things will be better. And I kept saying that it [00:33:00] was like the carrot on a stick just dangling in front of me. And I was continuously saying like, I'll just get to that point. Then everything will be fine. I got to that point, but something else was now not, not good. And I continued and I continued and finally, I just couldn't get out of bed. I had clearly. Went way beyond my boundaries. So that was part of what I needed to understand. And I did come up with an idea after that w which has been really helpful in, in, in my coaching and my personal life as well. And it is this to kind of fill your own cup first. And, and I, I call this energy management. So. I have this idea that, and we all know this, like recharging our batteries and filling our own cup is often a really powerful way to do, especially for helpers because we're, we're far more effective when our cups are full or our batteries are full. The challenge though, is that we tend to feel that. And then we start giving again and, you know, because we're giving the [00:34:00] levels decrease and now we're down to 30, 30%. And all of a sudden we only have a maximum capacity of 30 to give. Whereas if I would have been back on hundreds, I could have given much, much more. So my personal insights, my, my solution to that became to fill my cup up and keep. Because it's the overflow that I then share freely. And so for me, it was about figuring out what fills my cup. And once I figured that out, make sure that it never gets turned off. So I start my day. I make sure that parts of my agenda is to fill my cup and keep it full because then if I move into a space of service, there's no depletion because it's an ever flowing. Sarah: Yeah, I love that picture. It's just like the minute it's empty, it's filling again. And then you share whatever is, you know, [00:35:00] dripping over and it has a lot to do with, you know, abundance. Like that's what abundance is, is that that's when you. Can really share from this energy of abundance, because the minute you feel like, oh, there's less. And you know, I'm not feeling great and there's not enough for me. Well, guess what? You're not in abundance anymore. You're now in scarcity. And so that's also where this stressed and comes from. The other term. You mentioned boundaries. So I think that's an important part of it, right? Like we're not, we're not inviting you to just give without limits. Yes. You know, first of all yeah. Have your cup always full, but even then there's boundaries. Like if someone asks you, do you work for free? Well, no, of course not. You know, there, there are boundaries that you need to put in place. Do you work on the [00:36:00] weekend? No. If, if, if you don't want to work on the weekends, then that's a big, no. So there is a yeah, a big importance on, on boundaries and, and, and working on those and the I'll let you in, in a second, the other term I wanted to throw at you was ambition. So talk to us about boundaries and and then also ambition.  Adam: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make that connection. So it's W with the, with the boundaries. The ID I like to talk about around that is really when it comes to our us being heart-centered entrepreneurs helpers, we want to understand that there is a distinction here. There is being passionate about what you do, and also being a pro. And in, in early days when I started things, I was just passionate. I was, I was on a mission. I had a purpose and I was giving again. I told you I've [00:37:00] burned out several times, not just at my corporate career, but also doing what I'm doing today. So I've, I've, I've had to learn that and relearn that. And part of that is when things shifted for me, I was working with a coach who helped me see. There is a distinction by turning into a pro. One can, one can argue. It's, it's a question about the social self and the professional self. The social self wants to be liked and is afraid of saying no, we're putting boundaries in the professional self is the side that says, well, actually, I realize when I'm depleted, I'm doing a far less less impactful work than I otherwise could. So because of that, I limit the number of calls, the number of hours I work per week, so that I can guarantee to people to always show up on our high frequency, for example. Right. So that, so that's the distinction I'm trying to allow people to see is really. [00:38:00] Turn pro like stop treating this as a business, not as a hobby, not as just a passion project. I mean, if, if that's what you want, of course, to turn this into a business. And if we do, we are professionals be proud of that. And, and honor that, and it does tie into this idea of ambition and defining your success. But. If we don't define what success looks like to us, it is easy to overdo it. It is easy to think. Well, five clients are pro is probably better than, than. So let's go for fine. Well, that's the whole thing, right? Is it really, to you for you, maybe for clients is perfect for you because it allows you to have that time, that space to recharge and always make sure that you're coming from a place of full, maybe gives you time to grow, learn and stay on top of things and so on and so on. So you want to take charge of that.[00:39:00]  Ambition is a tricky thing. Like we could probably have a whole conversation about this, because that was my key, key learning. When I shifted away from, from where I was there is like in human beings, we have this amazing ability to be ambitious. It is, it is an amazing ability because you don't see this everywhere else. Like. If you look at animals, for example, they're not very ambitious. They're very concerned about the present moments, surviving humans, though. We put away money today so that we possibly can use that when we retire. That's very ambitious. That's very how do you say that for forward thinking? Yeah. And at the same time, if all you have is ambition, you will struggle with actually living in the present moment. And to be honest, life really happens only in the present moment. So we're missing out on a big piece of, of life. So [00:40:00] the opposite of ambition is enthusiasm, according to me. So we, it's one thing to use. And we also want to balance that with enthusiasm, meaning the excite excitement we feel in the present moment. Right? And so again, what can help us not to go to fall? Which is a typical thing. When we measure money, we measure followers. We measure tangible metrics is that 10 is good. 11 is good. 15 is even better. And then we just like, kind of start rolling because the ambition takes over. That's where we can start going. What's my upper lip. What's the limit that I would be happy to reach without necessarily sacrificing or crossing my boundaries, sacrificing my boundaries so that I can make sure to come from a place of abundance. First does this tidy all together, Sarah? [00:41:00] Yeah.  Sarah: No, it's so good. I'm so glad you, you mentioned this upper limit. I think it's. We are so. Brainwashed to always think about growth and more growth and more growth that, you know, the conversation of what if there was an upper limit. And what if, and obviously we're talking about money here as well. Right? What if I reached that upper limit and then I can really just. Do the things that fill my cup and then if it would still brings me joy then yeah. Maybe, maybe I can do some more because obviously we've also all chosen work that we love doing, but that's also where the danger is. I think, in, in our work, I mean, yes, it's great that we get to work and love it. And at the same time you can fall so much in love with your work. That in the end, you're still working all the time. Me now. And then [00:42:00] yeah, I think it's, it can be addictive. So, so I think it's a, it's worth having a conversation. You know, especially if you have a partner and loved ones and you're like, well, actually, yeah, I do love my work, but you know, how do they fit into the equation as well? So, So yeah, so good to have this and yeah. Enthusiasm. Isn't, that is a great word and curiosity as well. You know, where, where it's like, well, yeah, I have this ambition, but I have all this curiosity for other things that I want to do that maybe don't have to do with work. And, you know, Maybe if I do have this upper limit, then I have more time for following my curiosity. So honesty is one of my core values. So it's just like, yeah, I do want to do all these other things as well. So so good. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about [00:43:00] yet that you wanted to bring up with this idea of moving the pale paler?  Adam: Well, I was thinking about one other thing. Once we, you know, as I was preparing in my mind about this and it was this not to make this a big things, a very small distinction that can sometimes help to understand what it means to focus on the impact. And it is, it is this idea of don't don't look for clients, look for ways to be helpful. So. Whenever someone feels stuck. Like I can't find clients, where do I find clients? Well, let's not focus on clients. Let's focus on helping people being helpful. And, and again, obviously going back to what we just shared about boundaries and turning pro and defining success so that it actually makes sure to support your lifestyle goals when we start looking for ways to be helpful The spin off effects. The side effect of that is often [00:44:00] a poster becoming a client. It just, it sort of happens by itself. And to me, I found that to be quite. Helpful when, when the anxiety of, oh, I need clients. When that comes up, I just go like, hang on. Let's be helpful. Where can I be helpful? Because it's easy to find that then finding clients, I don't walk around seeing dollar signs above people's heads. Right. It's just not what I do.  Sarah: Yeah, that brings up. This is when I used to call organized LinkedIn local events here in, in Lozan. We maybe organize that with a friend and people came to these networking events, like you said, looking for clients. And I always told them don't your clients are not here. These are people, humans that may just know other humans who need you know, what you have to offer, but it's never a good idea to go to a [00:45:00] networking event and think those are all my potential clients. Like you give off the wrong energy, if you go into a room like that. So yeah, just thinking, oh, these are humans who may know other humans who have. Then yeah, potentially gonna have want to work with me, but, but also don't think, oh, I'm going to tell them, you know, tell all your friends about me. No, that's not planning  Adam: their.  Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Adam. I want you to share two things. First of all where people can find you, how they can find out how to work with you in a second. I think you have something where you walk your talk and people can really experience What it would be like to be in your circles. So tell us about, yeah,  Adam: exactly. Well, the easiest way, I guess, is you can just visit my website, which is Adam koala. K a w a L E c.com. And they, you can get in [00:46:00] touch with me. You can read more about the things that I do together with my clients. And you can send me an email from there as well. I am on social media. But I'm not a huge, huge fan or like a very, very present person there. So it can take some time before I see something, if you really want to make sure to get in touch with me send me an email and that's the that's the best way. And yes. So I, I really, I mean, I enjoy. Our conversations. And we started getting to know each other a year ago. And I was so happy when you decided to you were accepting my invitation to be part of my summit that I did last year, calling the authentic business building and marketing summit and authenticity to me like that. I just needed you to be part of that. So, and I'm so glad I did. And you said, yes. So to honor that kind of, I, I, I wanted to offer all the listeners a way to access the, the interview I did with you. And two additional interviews that are really on the topic of authenticity and connection [00:47:00] and providing experience for people. So and they can go again to my, my home website and it's Adam koala.com forward slash humane marketing. Human marketing protocols and that's where they can basically sign up for, for taxes, those three videos. And I'm sure that you'll link that somewhere around this episode as  Sarah: well. And the show notes and in the description of your, of your app, where you're listening to this podcast. So, yeah. Wonderful and generous offer. Thank you. And that summit was just so great. So thank you so much. And the final question, Adam, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Adam: I am going to say that I'm back running that I'm really grateful for, for being back running it's I took a bit of a, a pause during holidays and all of that, and today was my first day back running. And I'm really grateful for that. Like, it's, it's one of my, that's one of the things that [00:48:00] really feels like. And I can tell because the last few weeks slowly, slowly been some early drippings happening, happening for my, my refilling my cup. So I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Running nature moving the body. Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show, Adam. Really  Adam: appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

How to turn your passion for visiting yard sales and thrift stores into a profitable side hustle. - FREE WORKSHOPWhat's up, guys? Today, we have the honor of introducing and interviewing Adam Smith, who has just recently within the last year jumped into flipping, but he's made some, sweet flips and he's made some awesome progress towards this reselling a side hustle, or profession, whatever you want to call it. So we're very honored, very glad to have Adam to the show. Adam, welcome. Thank you so much for jumping on here.Adam: Oh, thank you, Rob and Melissa. It's great to be [00:01:00] here.Melissa: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little background of you.Adam: Well, sure. I'm 41 years old. I have two young children, and two and four months, and I work a boring corporate job.And about a year ago, I, got into flipping, with the help of my mother who's been selling on eBay for years and years as a hobby and having fun. And she came and visited, for the holidays and we've said, well, let's sell some of this stuff around the house. And that's how I kinda got going, just selling stuff around the house.And, I had so much fun with it that I said, well, I'm going to start going to the thrift store. And I started selling stuff from the thrift store. And then, you know, I like to research stuff and I started a, what the heck is this reselling stuff? What the heck is flipping? And then that's how I found you guys and your videos on YouTube.And then that's really where it [00:02:00] launched, there. You know, a couple months after I started with my mom, I had found you guys. And I said, wow, we can really, I can really make some extra money at this. And this is really super fun. So that's probably more than you wanted in introducing myself, but...Rob: No, that was great. That's exactly what we want. We want your backstory, what you're doing, kind of how you found this career, this side hustle, whatever it is for everybody. So no, that's great. And you said one thing that throws a wrench into anybody's flipping business. You have young kids, you have a full-time job and you're still out there and you're doing amazing at flipping.So, yeah, that's awesome. Very, very exciting that, that is part of your journey and that's where you're at right now. So, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.Melissa: The kids take a lot of time. We know, very well, how much they take from your time, and we love it obviously, but it there's a lot less time left in the day to do anything else. So.Rob: The other thing I liked about what you said is you started from the stuff that's in your house. And a lot of people they find out about flipping and they think they have to go out and invest all this money, and then they have to have [00:03:00] all this inventory that they're not sure if it's going to sell, but you started with stuff that you had. That's kind of the way we teach people as well, stuff that you have sitting around the house, that you're not using anymore and start selling it, learn how to do the flipping and then you can actually expand and get bigger and go buy stuff that, you know, that's going to sell. So, yeah. That's awesome that that's how you started, for sure.Adam: Yeah, like I...Melissa: Go ahead. Sorry.Adam: Yeah, just having, you know, when I started, we had one, our first child, who was about two. And so I had quite a bit of extra time still, compared to what I have now. Now we have a four-month-old baby around the house, so it's really put a crunch on the amount of time, free time that I have to go out, you know, yard saling or thrifting, or just, you know, searching on Facebook marketplace for items. But I'll say it, it's still, I think the max I put in on a weekly basis would be 10, you know, 15 hours at the most. And I'm able to squeeze that in, you [00:04:00] know, after everyone's in bed, I'll, you know, do some listing of items or packaging up of items and stuff at night.So I, and I still get to bed at a reasonable hour. And then of course the kids have me up at 5:00 or 6:00 AM or something. So yeah, I think my sales in the first month, half of the year, we're really, really strong before baby came in June. And then it really tanked from June, July, and August. I really didn't have a lot of time cause baby was so young.But now that we've kind of settled into a routine and I can have that time at night and a little bit in the early morning to do flipping stuff, I'm right back to where I was in the beginning part of the year.Melissa: Awesome. So when you, you're saying around 10 to 15 hours, when you're on your kind of normal schedule, so what is that usually average a month when you're on the normal schedule?Rob: Income wise, that, that brings up a great point because a lot of people want to know if I can throw an extra 5 hours, 10 hours at this business, what can I expect? And you're like you said, you're [00:05:00] a new flipper within the last 12 months you've been actually doing this. So, kind of give us some numbers, you know, maybe averages, that you've been able to do on the selling side of it.Adam: Yeah, my average sales per month are around I think between $5,000 and $7,000 a month, I would say.Rob: That's awesome. I love it.Adam: Some months are better than like I said, June, July, August was a little, a little slow just because I didn't have a lot of time to list and, and stay on top of it. But I have, I have no doubt that if I, if I went full time at this, I could completely replace my corporate income and more. So like, this is my first year.I think I will end up around $70,000 to $80,000 in total sales and that's with just starting slow too. Cause I didn't find you guys until January or February of this year and that's when things really took off.Rob: Dude, you're you're, you're blowing my mind and I have so many questions [00:06:00] right now about just this $5,000 to $7,000 a month. The next question is kind of what's your niche? What, how are you getting to that's a substantial amount of money for a side hustle. What exactly are you doing? Like, what is your niche that you're doing to get to move the mountain on that? To make that money?Adam: I would say the two categories I do the most are appliances, you know, cooking cooktops, ranges, and then Sleep Number beds is probably the, the second category where I do really, really well. And what I've kind of moved into now, especially after, baby came in June is it's been harder to move larger items like ranges and stuff like that. So I started parting out cooktops and ranges and stuff that, cause it's so much easier to ship, you know, a small switch or a burner, and the money, the return is really good on those. Cause you can [00:07:00] often pick up a little bit older appliances that all the components still work, but you know, they're not the newest model or whatever, all the switches and valves and stuff like that still work on them.And I just part them out in the garage at night and then I list all those items and I sell them for a really good profit, you know, so I can take a range that I pick up for free or for less than a hundred dollars and, you know, flip it and make $500 to a thousand dollars on the parts off that range. So that's where I'm really kind of niching down into right now is, is, is the parting out appliances.Melissa: That's funny. We actually just went to dinner with one of our other course members the other day, and she brought up a point. She had a cooktop and it was or a range, I don't know if it... was it a range? She got it and it was missing one knob. She's like, it's fine. I'll go. I'll just purchase the knob. And she went to go purchase the knob and it was $300.Rob: $300.Melissa: And I think that's what she paid for the whole thing. And she's like, all right, well now, but then she ended up selling the [00:08:00] other three knobs for $300 or $400 each. So she was like, she just parted it out. It's like that. There you go.Rob: And I want to call attention to this. This is a great point. Some of you guys that do know Melissa and I, we do large items and it sounds like Adam does some larger items too, but he's also found a niche where he can part out items, sell smaller items and still make great, great money at it. So, yeah, that that's really, really an awesome point.Melissa: Sky's the limit.Rob: It is. You do not have to do super large items. And that's the big thing Melissa and I found with what we do, it's less time than selling tons and tons of small items. But if you're getting into these smaller items that have a higher profits on them, because...Melissa: Your knob is worth $300.Rob: Exactly. Adam's probably talking about appliances there, you know, maybe anywhere from 5 to 10 years old and people have one thing goes bad on it and Adam's got the replacement for it for a good price underneath what it would be for a retail price, if they had to go and order it from Whirlpool.Melissa: And half the time you can't find them anymore because they're older.Rob: Exactly. Exactly. So that's a great, great piece of advice, Adam. I love that, that you're actually thinking [00:09:00] outside the box and you're making some great money on smaller items, but higher profit, smaller items. So that's awesome. Great tip.Adam: Yeah, it's kind of enabled me to, to also limit the amount of time you spend listing and cleaning up some of those older items. And so now with the appliances, if I'm going to sell it and flip the larger cooktop or a full range, I pretty much will, I want to make sure they're in good condition when I buy them. So I still go for that, whatever profit I want to make, you know, 10 times profit is kind of what I look for, based on your advice.But if it's going to take me five or six hours to clean up that older thing, it's, it's just, doesn't become worth it. So I'll just part it out, it's easier to just tear it down. I can do that in an hour. I can tear down range an hour and, you know, to spend less time on it. I don't know if that makes sense.Rob: It does. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Categorize it and take it that tear down. There's only so many pieces to these, these appliances that you're working with. You, you know, you have wires, you have boards, you [00:10:00] have knobs. So there's only so many pieces that are really worth the money to flip. And it's another point to it that you didn't even say you, once you do it, you tear it down.You can get rid of the big components. You're not even storing that stuff. You take it to the scrap yard. You throw it away, whatever you do. So it is a lot easier in some aspects to do that. So, yeah. That's awesome. I love how your brain's thinking and working this whole, this whole process out. Cause you're doing yeah, you're doing amazing. So I'm super excited.Melissa: That's funny.Adam: That's another fortunate thing is my local community has a waste diversion center where I can recycle all the other components for free. I just dropped them off, you know, all the big metal components. So that's, that's worked out really well.Rob: I love it. I love it. That is that's amazing.Melissa: So if you have to reflect all the way back for this last year, I think it's awesome that you've only been at it for a year. What would you say are a couple of things that have contributed to your finding success, maybe like habits?Rob: Great question.Adam: That's a good question. I think [00:11:00] just kind of the discipline of, of even though when you're tired and, and, and don't want to go out to the garage and tear down a range or whatever, just making sure I, you know, you set goals of, I want to list one item per day. That's one thing the group has been really helpful with holding me accountable. We have a lot of challenges in the group, you know, we have the 30-day listing challenge, so that sticks in my head. I'm like, well, I got it. I don't want it, but okay. I gotta go out and do that cause I want to be able to post in the group that I made my listing for the day. Staying positive too, because there are challenges that have come up this year where, you know, for example, I had someone return a thousand dollar cooktop.They returned a different one than I had sent them. And, you know, they had, you know, it was a big scam. They were trying to, you know, it was fraudulent of course. And that was really stressful because it was, you know, I had paid the shipping. I had had to pay for them to ship it back to me cause I, [00:12:00] and so there was a lot of money on the line.So working through that, staying positive, knowing that everything can be kind of figured out and like it'll work out, in the right way in the end. That's not really a habit though. You can take that part out.Rob: But it's good. No, no, no, I like that. That's good. That's honest. We're working through a return right now, and that's one of the things that people, it does happen. There's bad parts to business. There are, there are bad parts that you do not want to deal with. And we're doing the same thing right now and you have to figure out the best way to do it, the best way to do it ,the best way to work it. And then you learn from every single situation.So even that return that you did, I guarantee you learn some stuff out of that return that you're not going to do the next time around. You're going to do it differently. So sometimes, I mean, we call it. It's not our coined phrase, but stupid tax to where you maybe acted quick out of something or you did something you learn from that, and I do the same thing every time I have something like this happens and you learn for the next [00:13:00] situation, how to handle it better.Melissa: To know is that those things they don't happen very often. Unfortunately, that's what keeps people from doing a reselling side hustle, because they'll think, oh, I don't want you know, to lose money on returns, but like that's the first return we've had in a year and a half.Rob: Yeah.Melissa: You're going to have that part of business in any business you do.Rob: And I'm sure you're the same way as a $1,000 cooktop, if you're making $5,000 $7,000 a month, you're not dealing with these all the time.Same with us. We've made probably $150,000 and ours was the same thing. A thousand dollars. A $1,300 that we're dealing with. And we'll come out okay with ours because I'll have insurance claim on it because it was damaged. But at the same time, it's just a little bit of red tape that you have to go through.So, I think that's great advice for people listening. This is not all hunky-dory. You still will have to work in there's some, some situations that will come up. It's how you shine through those situations and how you learn from them.Adam: Yes. Yeah. I would agree with that. That maybe the discipline or the habit there is just treating each situation as a, as a learning. You know, really, [00:14:00] since I'm in my first year, It's really, I've done a lot of stuff like that, where I'm going to just going to try this because I want to learn what it's like. You know, I want to learn how to do this. I obviously, I didn't try to do a return or a, a scam, but,Rob: You learn how to handle it though. You learned that it is, that stuff happens. Not that often. Trust me. I've never had,Melissa: I've never heard that with that big of a cooktop.Rob: No.Adam: It was a pretty gutsy move by them to return a completely different, it was the same model. Thankfully, I, I had taken pictures of the serial number and those were in the posting and, you know, we had to go, I had to go through the whole thing of filing a police report and all of that.And eBay did refund me. I did, I do think the buyer did probably, he got refunded automatically, you know, when, when he returned the thing. So, I don't know if he got flagged in the eBay system or not, and taken out, but they did refund me as well after I filed the police report and gave them the evidence. It all worked out in the end, you know, it was, you know.Rob: And that's, [00:15:00] that's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. You might've done a couple of things different than you did, but you had the proof that it was a different cooktop that he returned. You filed a police report, you got to the end of it. And you got your money back on the situation, on the, on the sale. Trust me, it's a headache, but everything is a learning experience. So like I said, you probably would do a couple things different or you probably know next time it happens.Melissa: But he had the pictures that was a big part of it.Rob: Exactly, it's huge to be able to have that. So, no, I, I kudos to you. I think that's awesome.And you're in your first year. A lot of people will roll over when something like this happens and go, oh, I'm outta here. I'm not flipping anymore. I can't do it when this is the result. And, it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen sometimes. You have to be able to roll with the punches.You have to learn from it and you have to move forward. So, that's awesome that that's, that's your mindset and that's where you're at right now. I, yeah, I applaud you for sure.Adam: Yeah. I did feel that way that week, you know, I had several returns that we could, another damaged cooktop and it was, it was pretty low point and it was thanks to the group too, you know, Stacy,I don't know if I can [00:16:00] say her name on this public... Stacy really helped me through both of those events. And if it weren't for the group, I think, you know, I really would have considered like, maybe this isn't for me, but yeah, she really supported me a lot of time on Facebook messenger. Like, this is how you do that.This is, you know, this is what you should do, a lot of great advice. So, I'm Immensely grateful for not only Stacy but the whole group too on getting through stuff like that.Rob: Good, andMelissa: something to say about having a like mind, like just encouraging people to do it at the same time. So when you do something like that, or have something like that happen, then you do have people alongside of you and you can figure it out.Rob: And some of you guys not know the group he's talking about. We actually have Flipper University. We have a core members, a members group Flipping For Profit, that everybody who goes through our university, we have a free members only group, and that's what he's talking about. We have close to a thousand people in there. Like-minded people that do exactly this, [00:17:00] they're flippers. So it's really, really cool just to be able to interact and I'm sure there's other groups out there like this, guys. Well, ours, isn't the only one, but get involved in one, if you can. That's, that's one of those things is being around like-minded people who can help you. You know, we have all different stages in our group, people that are just starting, and then professional flippers, like us, that are doing it full time. So you have great advice from everybody, which is awesome.Melissa: Yeah, so let us know what is one of your more memorable flips aside from maybe that cooktop?Adam: Let me see. More memorable flips. I think you guys have asked me this question before, too. I don't know that this is a great one for me, because everything seems so boring. You know, it's all like,Rob: Yeah, maybe a high profit, one of your highest profit flips. That, I mean, that's what sticks out to me when I think about stuff.Adam: Well, I think you guys both know about this one, but, one of, one of a more recent one that was really fun is I picked up a cooktop for a hundred dollars on a [00:18:00] Sunday afternoon. And it was in great shape, hardly had any use. I, I brought it home, wiped it down, took my 12 photos, posted it on eBay. It sold the next morning for $1,300. I shipped it out like two days later. So like turning around $1,200. Well, it wasn't all $1,200 profit, but turning that around, within like a couple of days, it was pretty amazing. That was one of my fastest flips I've ever seen.Rob: I love it. That is a great one. And it is memorable that when you make those flips, yeah. You're, you're proud of yourself. I mean, you found a good deal you got it on, you gave somebody else a really good deal for the cooktop. So, no, that's awesome. I love it. And yeah, cooktops, are they're a lot of fun you, if you know what you're doing, and you find those right cooktops to flip, you can make some serious, serious money as Adam's showing us right now, for sure.Melissa: If you had to have, like, if you wanted to give a tip or two, like for somebody just getting started in this, like what would be like one thing that you maybe wish you would've known when you first started that like, [00:19:00] okay that you would give to somebody?Adam: A good tip, I think it just, you know, find the reseller community online, whether that be Flipper University and the group that we're in or whatever it is. There's so many resources out there available for free to get you going. That would be my first bit of advice, beyond the standard of, you know, start with stuff that's in your house and that will help you learn the process of eBay or whatever platform you're using to sell on. And it's low, really low risk. And then, but finding that online community of support. It is priceless. It's gonna, they're going to help you through everything from listing to shipping, to dealing with difficult customers or difficult returns and, all of that stuff. So, that would be my, if someone's serious about it and really wants to do it, it's find the community.Melissa: Awesome.Rob: That is great advice because it is, it's not, you're not doing this alone. And you've learned that. When you have people around you who are there to [00:20:00] build you up, when you're having that bad day of, hey I had a return or even a bad week of I had a couple returns and I'm trying to figure out what's the best, what's the next step in these returns, you have those people around you that are building you up and helping you stay focused and work through these situations. So you get past them, you get through them and then you just can keep going on. So a community is a huge thing and that's really cool that you've seen that.Because it does, it helps a ton in this business, if you have the like-minded people around you. For sure. So a great, great tip. Great advice for sure.Melissa: I'm not sure if we asked this though, before, what are your major platforms that you're selling on?Adam: Pretty much, I would say 90% on eBay. I do sell a little locally off of Facebook Marketplace so or OfferUp, and that's mostly items I don't want to ship, or it's just easier to flip locally. So yeah, 90, 90%, 95% on eBay.Melissa: Yeah. That's about ours, same.Rob: Awesome, same as us. Yeah. eBay's our main go just because of the people that it reaches, that's it. And then local. So awesome. Well, [00:21:00] Adam, thank you so much for jumping on here and giving us all this great information. You are, you know, you are, you're a year into it, but you have so much wisdom and knowledge in that year.I'm super excited to watch your, your journey unfold, and all the flips that you're gonna make in the next year. So. Congratulations. Thank you so much for, just giving, everybody, some great, great tips and some great advice on how to, how to further their reselling business. So thank you, thank you.Melissa: Thank you.Adam: Thanks Rob and Melissa. It was great to be on. Thanks for all you've done for me too.Rob: Of course, of course. All right. Have a great day, Adam. Thank you so much.Yup. Thanks guys. Bye.

Adam McChesney, Owner, and Partner at St. Louis, Missouri franchise of Hite Digital, a service digital marketing agency with 15 locations. Adam's agency provides logo design, branding services, website design, search engine optimization, paid advertising, and recently launched Hite CRM, a technology-based software based on GoHighLevel's white-labeled CRM.  The goal? “To create an ecosystem that . . . helps us generate more business for them, . . . turn(s) those leads into customers, and then turn(s) those customers into walking billboards for our clients.” He wants to “turn a client's business into “a scalable model” that helps them reach their goals and helps them get more out of what they put in.” Adam says over 75% of his clients are in a home-service or contracting-type industry. Before Hite, Adam sold medical devices for around five years. When Covid hit, he decided he wanted to get into marketing. His background in prospecting, sales, and growing business gave him the skills he needed to get clients. He studied up on website building, ranking, and paid ad production so he could do the work.  He started his agency in July of 2020 and grew it “from basically nothing up to 30 or 40 clients,” but then came the problems. A lot of issues – fulfillment, account management, and scaling – were breaking the agency and its business. Adam started looking for ways to outsource. After he became “official” with Hite in June of this year, he doubled his agency's monthly revenue in 90 days . . . jumping from $30K to $60k a month. Hite Digital at the corporate level handles processes, systems, fulfillment, and some of the prospecting and administration services, leaving Adam with the time and energy to focus on prospecting, selling, growing, and scaling his business. Daily franchise calls with other franchise owners cover different business topics – each week starts with sales, then progresses through mindset, general operations, product, and on Friday, family-oriented personal sharing – providing a rich source of franchise “lessons learned,” but, more importantly, supportive relationships. The franchise has allowed him to leverage the resources and abilities of about 150 full-time team members and 15 distinct locations, and do work at a scale that a small, independent agency could not. Adam feels the franchise certifications, high-profile sponsorships, and publicity have increased his “validity” . . . he no longer has to sell himself as an individual product. With Hite corporate providing the processes and systems (“Sales are not going to outperform and out-scale bad processes and systems,” Adam warns), he now has the time to be “hyper-focused on what's going to take this agency and continue to grow.” He then concludes, “The things that are happening behind the scenes – strategy, everything like that – have continued to stay the same One key to finding quality clients? Adam is in a number of mastermind groups where he meets with business owners from all over the country on a regular basis. Many of the people in his mastermind groups are his clients or become his clients . . . and those people refer new clients to him, as well. Adam feels personal branding contributes to his ability to get and retain clients, because people know, like, and trust him based on the relationship created before they even consider a partnership. Adam is available on Instagram: @adamlmcchesney or on his agency's website at: hitedigital.com/st-louis Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Adam McChesney, Owner and Partner at Hite Digital St. Louis, obviously in St. Louis, Missouri. Welcome to the podcast, Adam. ADAM: Yeah, Rob. Thanks for having me on. Super excited to be here today. Appreciate you having me here today. ROB: Excellent to have you on the podcast. Why don't you start off by telling us about Hite Digital St. Louis? Tell us what you all are doing, what's exciting there, what clients seek out. ADAM: Yeah, absolutely. Hite Digital St. Louis is a franchise operation of Hite Digital. Hite Digital has 15 locations as of this recording today, and I'm lucky enough to be the owner/partner here in St. Louis, Missouri. We're a full-service digital marketing agency. We do everything from logo and branding, website design, search engine optimization, paid advertising, and we've recently launched our own CRM as well. We do things a little bit differently over at Hite. Some really cool things that we have in the works. But we are a franchise model, so we leverage the resources and the abilities of about 150 full-time team members and 15 different locations. It has allowed us to do a lot of things at scale that, if you were basically your own little hyper-agency like I was before merging with Hite, you just couldn't do. Some really exciting things we have going on. ROB: It's a really interesting model, and I think it's one we really haven't encountered before on this podcast. How did you become aware of Hite, and how did you get drawn in? I'm sure that's a process; I'm sure there's some aspirations of what you can build on your own, what you can build together. It's probably a journey. ADAM: Absolutely. It's definitely been a journey. I've been an agency owner full-time now since July of 2020. Quick backstory on me: I was in the medical device sales field for about five years. Worked my way up through multiple companies and was pretty successful, but right as COVID was going on, I realized I didn't know if this was necessarily for me. I'd always wanted to take marketing full-time to see what I could do, helping local businesses – especially during such a unique time that we were seeing with the pandemic. So, in July of 2020, I left. My background, my strengths are really in prospecting and sales and growing business, so I never really had any issues finding people that were interested in allowing me to do their marketing and advertising. And then I was taught through courses and programs and a lot of self-teaching how to build a website, rank a website, do all the paid ads. So, I could sell and then I could also do it, which was nice, but it also brought its own set of problems for fulfillment and account management and scaling. As I took my agency from basically nothing up to 30 or 40 clients, I had a lot of issues that were breaking the agency and the business as a whole. I started looking into ways to outsource. Hite Digital was one of those ways that I was looking. Hite Digital in the past had been a white label fulfillment company for agencies that obviously didn't want to do the work internally. So, transitioning over to this franchise model – I had heard about it; never heard anything like it. I thought, “Wow, this is way too good to be true.” They handle the processes and the systems, they handle the fulfillment, they handle some prospecting and admin stuff. For me, it was a perfect storm where I was at in my agency to be able to continue and focus on what I wanted to do, which is prospect and sell and grow a business. ROB: It's really fascinating. It sounds like the whole delivery aspect of the business is something you don't really have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. ADAM: That's correct. ROB: But then with that also comes – you still do have to sell something that is aligned to what Hite can deliver as an organization. How do you think about the alignment between what you're selling and what's being delivered? ADAM: Luckily, I had a taste of what Hite was able to do before I came on as a franchise. I knew a couple other people that were already franchisees of Hite, I had seen it from a white label standpoint, and most of what I'm selling today was also what I had previously sold and also done myself. So, for me, it wasn't much of a transition. The biggest transition for me was to get out of a lot of the mundane tasks of the day to day. So, managing the accounts, managing the projects, building a website myself – all the things that in theory were good for me in the beginning to get access to knowing how to do it and be able to better sell what I was selling, but it got me very focused on the things that weren't going to grow and scale a business. ROB: What kind of territory do you have, then? Is it St. Louis in fact, and someone else might come in and do Kansas City or Nashville? You've got about 100 miles? What's your range? ADAM: Basically, right now I'm the only one in Missouri. I can't remember the specifics on the range. I want to say it's about 120 miles that I can remember. For example, in the state of Texas we have four franchisees down there. We don't really necessarily have a boundary of where we can do business, being digital marketing. There's not any caps on anything like that. But I want to say it's about 120 miles in terms of where another franchise would be opening. ROB: Got it. It reminds me – the NBA operates kind of like that too, and they seem to be doing all right for everyone there. [laughs] When it comes to prospecting, you almost get to go out and prospect a bit more unencumbered with the day to day of the operations, which is fascinating. Quite often in the medical sales field, it's I think a little bit similar. How do you think about which kinds of clients you're working with locally? ADAM: Where I really got my start was online networking. I'm in a variety of different masterminds where likeminded people are coming together. I'm meeting business owners all the time, and whether I'm working with people within those masterminds as clients of mine or they're referring people to me, most of my clients were all over the country. This has now given me an aspect to start doing some cool things locally in terms of networking, getting my name out there from a standpoint that actually means something. When I am the product, the service, and everything, and I'm telling people, “Hey, this is what I've got,” no one really understands that. Now I can send them over to Hite Digital, show them all the team members that we have, all the certifications, all the sponsorships, all the stuff that has been written about Hite Digital throughout the publications. It has a lot more validity. So, I'm more proud to be able to go and show that and do that, and it's given me access and more time to be able to do it. Personal branding is such a big aspect of where I've been able to get clients, keep clients and retain clients, because people know, like, and trust me based on the relationship that we've already created before even coming into a partnership together. ROB: Where does that lead you? Are there particular verticals or sizes of companies? Is there a typical client right now in St. Louis for you? ADAM: Most of the clients I have are in the home service or contracting space. That's really where I got my start and where I'm heavily involved from a client standpoint. But transitioning over to Hite, we've been able to work with clients of all shapes and sizes and a variety of different industries. Even started getting into the ecommerce space, which I had never been into before. There's really not a cap, but if I had to say, majority of my clients, 75% and above right now are all in a home service or contracting type industry. ROB: Got it. That certainly makes sense from a services perspective, whether you're talking about SEO, whether you're talking about paid search. All of those kinds of things, you need a certain kind of website; you need to be distributed certain places. You can definitely see how there's a lot of them, and you're prospecting probably looks a little bit similar on that side too, going to the medical. There's lists of these people. You can find them, you can build trust with them, and keep on going. Does that transfer? ADAM: Exactly. That absolutely does. ROB: You mentioned the CRM product, then. Is that a Hite central offering? What does that look like? ADAM: Yes. We partnered with GoHighLevel to create a technology-based software of their white label CRM. It's called Hite CRM. We launched it probably about two months ago right now. We've started to have some people adopt it. But essentially, we want to create an ecosystem that not only helps us generate more business for them, but able to obviously turn those leads into customers, and then turn those customers into walking billboards for our clients. The strategic part about what we do isn't just getting them more lead flow or more calls; it's how we turn your business into a scalable model that helps you reach your goals and helps you get out more of what you put in. ROB: That part makes sense. I do wonder – and this is always a little bit of a tricky art between that transition from sales to delivery in terms of relationship. You mentioned relationship, you mentioned retention. How do you think about the ownership of the relationship when a client goes from sales in your office to delivery, which is across the world, and certainly has to be at a level of quality – but it seems like the boundary of who owns the account is a little bit trickier than maybe if you had everything in-house. ADAM: Absolutely. Technically, we still obviously have it in-house. My account managers that I have are full-time. They just work with my clients. We have created the relationship and created that on a very high level. People obviously do business with me because they know, like, and trust me, and then I transition to not necessarily completely step away from the account, but “Hey, here is Kevin or Moe that's going to be able to take care of you on a daily basis.” The problem in agencies, as you grow and scale, and the issue I was having, is I was lucky if I was able to hop on a call with a client that was paying me a good amount of money once per month. In that, I wanted to make sure that the customer service was to a tier above where I had it and that we were still getting the results, that we were getting the correct reporting, that we were building efficiencies around how we do things for our clients. The aspect of the touching of each account and to the effectiveness we've been able to do it has completely gone through the roof in the transition. Obviously, that comes with me stepping back and delegating and putting processes and systems in place so I'm not the face of the day-to-day communication. But at the end of the day, the things that are happening behind the scenes – strategy, everything like that – has continued to stay the same. ROB: What does it look like? What's maybe the most extreme example of what it looks like to scale a city as a Hite franchisee? What's the limit? There's almost an unlimited amount of business. ADAM: Yeah, there's unlimited amount of business. Ideally, I think in the future we create physical offices, we have all these different things. Being able to work remote and pretty much anywhere in the world, I think there's a ton of opportunity just with one location. Just to give you an idea, I came into Hite officially June of this year, and by stepping away from the account management, by stepping away from the fulfillment and the admin tasks, I've been able to double my agency in 90 days. We went from about $30k a month to over $60k a month. And really all that is attributed to me being able to step away and not have to worry about “When's this project going to be due?” or “How am I going to figure out how to get all of these reports out to these clients and then hop on calls with them, and then hopefully for 30 minutes to an hour a day focus on my personal brand and also prospecting?” Those things tend to go in the backseat when you have to figure out the projects and the account management. For me, I've been able to be very hyper-focused on what's going to take this agency and continue to grow. ROB: A lot less fires to fight, for sure. A flipside of that, I would think, is maybe having fewer people around you when it comes to having a table of different opinions to help challenge the business, to move it forward, to think of what's next. How do you think about finding peer support and things to drive you forward in that way? ADAM: Luckily, the support system with the franchise model at Hite is absolutely phenomenal. We have a daily franchise call. Each day of the week is a particular sector or topic of the business. Today was sales, getting the week started off right. Tomorrow is mindset. Then we have general operations, product, and then family-oriented personalized stuff. So, we talk together on a consistent basis, even though we are completely on opposite ends of the country or the world or wherever we're talking. I think by having all of this communication and collaboration in the last 90 days, what's also taken me is I'm finding new ways to put different twists on my business based off of what all these agency owners are doing, because we're all in it together. If someone is finding success in a certain area, we're going to share it with the team because we want to grow and scale at its height. If you were to just have a daily call with 15 agency owners, I don't know how many people are going to start sharing their secrets every single day of the week to help you grow. You might get one or two things. But we're able to do this thing at scale and really help a ton of clients, a ton of people, and do it on a consistent basis. So that's been a really cool part. ROB: Right. From a geography perspective, there's no competition. You can be fully transparent. Someone can tell you exactly one account they're having a hard time with, they're weak, they're dying, the client's at risk, and you can't go steal that client. There's nothing you can do. That's their client, and they need the help to succeed, and you can learn from it. ADAM: Yeah, it's been phenomenal. To also give you an idea, we have one of our owner/partners who's in Nashville, and he's a real estate investor himself. He got into the space for being a real estate investor, to try to grow and scale his wholesaling company. He's jumped on calls with me to talk real estate with potential clients that he's never going to see anything from. No one's ever going to take time out of their day to do that if you're not a part of something like we have going on at Hite. ROB: One thing that seems like it would be tricky – and I'm sure they've solved it – how do you handle the question of product offerings and pricing? Because it seems like there's a lot of room for transparency there. There's a lot of room for you to try to mark up a service 10 times the rack rate. There's room for Hite to mark up a service 10% and tell you to just deal with it. How does that balance work from the pricing as it flows through to a client? ADAM: We have our fulfillment costs of what we pay per project or per service offering, what have you, and then we have “Hey, here's what we recommend selling it for.” You can sell it for what you want. If you want to package something together, if you want to offer X, Y, and Z free for 90 days or at a percentage off, you have the complete ability to do that. Clients are never really getting access to what our cost is on anything, so you then can go and say, “Hey, here's what I want to do in my business to be able to get to XYZ goal, and I'm going to reverse-engineer back knowing your costs.” So yeah, we haven't had any issues with it thus far. ROB: It's an interesting thing. It also allows you to be entrepreneurial because you can assess the market conditions locally, the competitive situation. It all makes sense. It still feels like selling, sounds like. ADAM: Yeah, it does. The huge thing for us is we've been able to get access to opportunities that we would've never gotten access to if we were just our little agency here in St. Louis. We were the VIP sponsor out at Traffic & Conversion. We got a ton of exposure there. We're a sponsor on Dave Ramsey's podcast. There's a lot of things you can now do when you have 15 locations that are all pooling things together. We have an opportunity generation department that helps out with our prospecting and even sets appointments for us. There's a lot of really cool things you're able to do when doing it at scale. ROB: Absolutely. That did ring a bell, actually. I have listened on the EntreLeadership Podcast. I have heard Hite Digital. It did ring a bell, and part of me wondered how much that sponsorship cost. I don't expect you to know that, but… [laughs] ADAM: I don't know it. [laughs] ROB: It's probably something you wouldn't do on your own. ADAM: Yes, exactly. ROB: Very good. Adam, you've done your own agency, you've chopped the delivery part off now and freed yourself to focus on some strengths; what are some lessons you've learned on your journey leading the agency that you might go back and tell yourself if you could rewind the clock and try to play Back to the Future and tell yourself what you ought to have known? ADAM: There's a variety of different things. It's only been 15 months of doing this full-time, and I've had a lot of success, but I've made a lot of mistakes, so the list could be very long. But I think the biggest thing for me, being a sales rep in my past, is sales are not going to outperform and out-scale bad processes and systems. When I first started running this full-time, I leave medical device, I leave a very lucrative industry, benefits, security, all those different things, and the shiny object is “Just go get sales. Take whatever product or service you can get in here and start selling it. Get people in the door.” Which was fine to an extent, but then my weakness – and why it's been such a great transition into Hite – is the processes and the systems. It's the organization. It's the fulfillment aspect. Trying to outsell bad processes and systems is never going to be the answer, and I think so many agency owners experience those problems where they're just focused on the shiny object, which is that next deal or that next month's worth of retainers, when not focusing on a process or system could set you back next month, 90 days, 6 months from now, and keep you from scaling to grow your business.  ROB: Sure. A lot of the processes are handled for you. How do you think about the processes that are not handled for you? How do you think about keeping consistency? Is there a playbook you're pulling from Hite? Is there a playbook you're writing yourself? How do you keep those account managers locked and loaded? How do you think about the next zero on the size of the business? ADAM: There's definitely a playbook and framework from Hite, but with how we do our business – to give you an idea, not everyone is going to have an account manager based on where they're at in their franchise. I happen to have two of them due to the size of our franchise. There's different dynamics that are coming in. I'm doing things a little bit differently than someone else is doing them based on our comfortability and based on where we're at with our clients and what projects we have going on. I'm managing it and learning new things each day, because I've really never managed people in a full-time aspect, especially in the account manager role, and I've also never been just an account manager. So, there's a variety of different factors that are going on. The next level in my agency is to bring in an integrator type person with digital marketing experience that really knows how to grow and scale an account management team, eventually a sales team. That way, I can really focus on what I'm doing best, which is at the top, strategizing, growing, and scaling the franchise itself, and not in the day to day still when it comes to managing people and the operations aspect. ROB: That lets you focus also on bringing in a very interesting sort of integrator, because you're not talking about a full-scale ops and delivery integrator. You can think about it as a different sort of organization, probably bring a more specialized integrator into that role. ADAM: A specialized integrator, one that's done SOPs, one that's done the product and the service aspect of what you do, and that likes doing it. Because at the end of the day, I think a lot of people are put in positions or pivoted to be an integrator when really they could be a visionary type of person or someone that doesn't like “I'm going to check the boxes and do all these different things.” My mind races at 1,000 miles per hour, and I need someone to help reel that in, and when we do have a good idea or a new process and system that could take the business to the next level, have someone that can run and put it into place and actually make it work. ROB: Absolutely. You've mentioned there's different scales of these franchises; there's one-man/one-woman shows. You've got a couple people around you. With the visibility that you have, what's the biggest you've seen a franchise get so far, and what does it look like from a work structure? ADAM: The franchise model is actually not even a year old. It's super new. We have people that have come in with agencies of all sizes, and then also people that are brand new to running their own agency, which I think is really cool. I think on the spectrum of where things are at, our average agency – we just saw the numbers today – is doing almost $30,000 a month. That's between all the agencies that are out there. Our agency here in St. Louis is definitely the largest in terms of I have two full-time people. I think everyone else pretty much at least has another full-time person or is working towards that. From a monetary standpoint, those things are going to be on every which end of the spectrum. But the average is right around $30,000, which is pretty healthy for 15 and only being a year old. ROB: Yeah, and you're setting the pace then a little bit, creating what this looks like. I wondered up front what it looked like perhaps from a pride perspective, because you start your own business and then you're merging, you're rebranding. But it almost sounds like a way to think about it is it's a way of making a bet and investing in growth. You're saying, “I think if I take this path instead of another one, I'm going to rebrand, I'm going to gain this halo over me” – and I guess some podcast ads, and this conference, plenty of other lead routes. But sometimes a merger is an ego battle, and it sounds like this is a little bit more of an investment strategy. ADAM: Yeah. It was a concern for me, to be honest. I was a lot more concerned with the way that I thought it was going to go versus how it actually did. For me, it wasn't so much the ego, but it was that I was the product, the service, and the everything. Basically, taking feedback and taking how the customers at the time and eventual customers took it, I took all that stuff personally. Some was good, some was not so good, and there were areas of opportunity. But for me, it was more so we each have our own commitment at Hite, and we're committed to so many different things of helping people, empowering people. I am the commitment to live a more whole, well-rounded life. If I want to do that, the way I do that is by impacting as many people as possible. I can only impact so many people if I'm doing everything, and I don't have the support, I don't have what I have now at Hite. Now, in 90 days, I've already grown the business double to what it was already at before, which was helping a lot of people. It's really cool to see even what we'll have at the end of the year and then this time next year. We're able to fulfill our commitments at a higher level, and in the process of that we're obviously going to lose clients that maybe we wouldn't have lost if I stayed and did my little agency. But we have to look at the bigger picture. I have to look at the bigger picture and what's best for me, my family, my agency, and everything else that's included. ROB: For sure. When you're looking ahead, Adam, at the next year, if we were to catch up a year from now, what's going to be new from the Hite Digital fulfillment mothership, and what will be different in St. Louis? What should we be looking forward to? ADAM: I alluded to earlier, over the next three to six months, I really want to bring in an operations integrator type manager to help take this business and plug up the holes that are here. What I think that allows us to do is to grow our team here in St. Louis – adding that person that would be local here in St. Louis, potentially adding some sales managers, more account managers. But getting very strategic on the partnerships and the things we're doing, investing in relationships, investing in masterminds to make sure that we're impacting not only as many people as we possibly can, but the right people, the right clients to come in here. The more people we're able to work with on a consistent basis, it's really going to help everyone win. I think in terms of Hite, we have ambitions of taking it from 15 franchises – I don't know what the end goal looks like in terms of a specific number of franchisees, but I think the people we're bringing in are all quality. They fit the bill of what makes Hite, Hite. And the best part is we're attracting all of these people. We're bringing in agency owners that we're connected to in our market, we're in other masterminds together. There's just a uniqueness to what we're doing. I think that continues on over the next couple months and throughout the years. ROB: Excellent. Adam, when people want to find and connect with you and Hite Digital St. Louis, where should they go to find you? ADAM: The easiest place is going to be my Instagram account. That's @adamlmcchesney. That's where I'm probably the most active in terms of messaging back and forth with people. You can also go to hitedigital.com/st-louis and find our information there in terms of what we offer and everything we have going on here at Hite Digital St. Louis. ROB: Excellent. Adam, thank you for coming on. This really does uncover a model we haven't talked about a lot on this podcast. It's a different path. It's clear it's working for you, it's exciting, and I think we're going to hear more about it. Thanks for coming on and sharing your experience, sharing your vision and leadership thus far, and we can't wait to see where it all goes. ADAM: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be on. Super excited for the future. ROB: Thanks so much, Adam. Take care. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Worried about Ai? Your emotions are your job security, and working with technology will be key to future success in voice over. In this bonus Voice & Ai episode, Anne chats with Ryan Hicks and Adam Fritz of Pozotron - an audiobook proofing service. Listen as they dive deep into the future of audiobook production, and discuss how the connections between human emotion & AI is a voice actor's greatest ally… More at https://voboss.com/voice-and-ai-pozotron-with-ryan-hicks-and-adam-fritz  Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Welcome, everyone, to the VO BOSS podcast, the AI and Voice series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited and honored to bring you very special guests Adam Fritz and Ryan Hicks of Pozotron, a powerful AI software that helps audiobook professionals make their audio productions more accurate, efficient, and profitable. Adam is the COO of Pozotron and leads the operations and business development arms of the company. And Ryan has a 10-year history in the audiobook industry, having spent eight of those years as a proofer and editor with Deyan before coming over to Pozotron. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure. Both: Thanks for having us. Anne: So if you don't mind, I'd like to start off with serving the need for having a wonderful piece of software like Pozotron. So I'd like to ask, Ryan, since your background as an editor and proofer at Deyan probably gave you lots of reasons to want to have things that would make your job easier. So tell us a little bit about what you did on a day-to-day basis and what type of tools you use to do your job, and then what your pain points were. Ryan: Oh man. So proofing and editing at Deyan. So we, wow. How do I even turn that into something small? Anne: Well, so there were a lot of were a lot of pain points. I would imagine -- Ryan: I mean the whole thing, the whole thing is a pain point. So we would get professionally recorded material and try to make it more professional quickly, in the door, out the door. So we had a series of steps that we would go through to kind of standardize the process of editing and proofing at the absolute highest level. And we had some fantastically intricate manuals about spacing and noise floors and RMS and mastering techniques and what you had to use for all of these things. And then add that to the fact that we're just listening for everything that possibly could be going wrong. Misreads, noises, thunks in the background, wrong character voices, anything that you would have to give a note back to the narrator, that was my job for eight years was finding all of those notes and giving them back. Anne: Wow, so let's just say then for an average size audiobook, how long would it take back and forth between you and the author before you were able to resolve all of these issues? Ryan: So we were super compartmentalized at Deyan. I never talked to an author. I never talked to a rights holder. There was a production manager and a head of post that would take those projects and give them to us. And we gave those projects back to the head of post. Anne: Got it. So how long would you say, do you have an idea of how long it might take? Is there so many days of revisions back and forth or was it weeks before you would finally get the edited version that you needed? And that was correct? Ryan: So it happened a couple of different ways. If narrators were coming in house to the studios at Deyan, they would record during a six-hour session. And at the end of that session, they would send three hours of audio to the editors. And we basically had that day to try and get it done. Anne: Wow. Ryan: So three sessions from a narrator would be about a whole book. And so during that period, we would be editing, and then someone would be proofing after us. And then hopefully within a week, that would be back to that narrator to do the pickups and then finish it up. So we would have anywhere between a 14 and 21-day turnaround. Anne: Got it. Ryan: And we just kept trying to tighten that down further and further and further and make it as efficient as possible. Anne: And I think that there, this is my own experience. I am not an audiobook narrator, however I narrate corporate and long form narration. And so for me, my editing, I can only get it so efficient. There is an amount of time in terms of listening to it to make sure there's no errors as well as the time it then takes to edit those and then go back into the studio and rerecord and then come back and check it again. And so there's a certain amount of time, and I wish I could get it faster, but I just can't. And so I know it must be completely frustrating in terms of having, you know, hours of book material to be able to prove and edit. And I'm just talking, like, maybe my maximum would be, you know, an hour module at a time, and I would do maybe eight or ten modules, but still the process to me, I never got it to a point where I was as quick as I wanted it or needed it to be. And so fast forward to the future, how did you find Pozotron or how did they find you? Ryan: Jamie, my boss, and correct me if you know this part of the story, Adam, it was Jamie that found Jake, right, at a conference? Adam: I believe so, yes. Anne: And Jamie is Deb's right-hand man. And Jamie came to me and said, "oh my gosh, you have to look at this. You have to see what this company is doing." And when he showed me, I'm like, this is ridiculous. We don't need this. I've been doing this for seven years. I don't need some computer program checking my work. I'm fine at what I do. And we set it through dozens of tests. And this is early in Pozotron when they were still kind of working the kinks out. And I never beat Pozotron. I would check my work as soon as I did my foolproof, and I would run it through the software, and there was always things that I missed. Anne: Wow. Ryan: And so I finally, you know, as much as I shook my fist at it, suddenly I had a backup, right? I had a backup, and as soon as I was done, all we had to do was upload the files. And 20 minutes later, I would get a chance to scan through. And there it is, there's those three things that I missed. Anne: Wow. Ryan: There's those five things that I missed. And so we would add that onto my proofing report, and suddenly pickups that were coming back from the publisher, not just from me, but through all of our proofers were coming back in the single digits. And it was, it was awesome. That transition was great. Anne: That's incredible. So you were kind of a, you're a believer now. Ryan: Yeah. Having that safety net when you're -- Anne: Yeah. Ryan: -- when you're tired -- Anne: Absolutely. Ryan: -- when you've been working for eight hours already having that backup was fantastic. Anne: Awesome. Okay. So Adam, let's talk a little bit about Pozotron and how did the company come about? Adam: Like any good software company, you know, the, the core software is designed to solve a pain point. Anne: Yeah. Adam: So it's actually almost reversed. A lot of software companies see, okay, here's problem X, how do we create a solution to solve that problem? But in this case, it was almost backwards. Jake Poznanski, our CEO and founder, really wanted to get into AI. He'd exited a gaming, a mobile gaming company and was looking at AI and machine learning, and really liked some research going on about forced alignment. That's basically matching text and audio files together, and basically came up with the idea of the technology and then went about trying to apply that technology to a problem to solve. So he almost went around it backwards, um, came across the whole concept of audio -- he was a big listener of audiobooks and just how -- manual isn't the right word, but how time-consuming it was to prove an audiobook. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I mean, when I describe it to people who are not at all involved in the industry, you basically sit down with a PDF and headphones -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- and have to listen and read at the same time, which is tremendously difficult. So basically he designed it as not a way to replace a proofer, but designed this really fantastic and unique tool as a way to add that kind of extra set of eyes. So really the whole goal of Pozotron on the proofing side, that is our core technology, is to get the ratio of time spent proofing to the actual time of the audio or as close to one-to-one as possible. Anne: Yeah, right. Adam: So it should take an hour of time to proof and report on the pickups for an hour of audio. Anne: Makes sense. Adam: Without Pozotron, I think that's certainly a much higher, probably a two to one or three to one at least ratio. The goal with Pozotron is still -- Anne: Oh, absolutely. Adam: It's going to take you an hour to listen to an hour of audio, but instead of doing that, and then spending 20 minutes or half an hour putting together a pickup packet by copying things -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- out into an Excel spreadsheet -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- you click two buttons, and that pickup packets ready to go, and you just email that to your narrator, and they start recording right away. So that's really the goal is to get that ratio as close to one-to-one as possible. Anne: Yeah. And I'll tell you, that's very interesting because, for as many years as I've been in the industry doing long form narration editing, I have never been able to get quicker than one to three, and I am a stickler. You know what I'm like, no, I can do it. I can, I can get better than that. And I just can't, and it's, it's frustrating. And it's time-consuming, and it's also, it's very tedious. It's one of the, I would much rather be in the booth doing the creative, doing, you know, what I like to think I do best, you know, the artistry of it all to be in the booth and do that. And many people will outsource their work to an editor, but I always like to have the first check for myself. And it's not that I wouldn't outsource it, but that still, even if I outsourced it to an editor, it would take the editor just as much time as me or probably a little less, if that's all they do. But there was always that time element. And I could never get things back as quick as I really needed them or my client wanted them to be. And also if I had like a quick pickup to do, and I had an editor and I had outsourced it to an editor, they usually put their own filters on it that they don't necessarily tell me, or they might be using a different software. And so therefore, if I needed a really quick pickup, it was one of the things where if I outsource to an editor, it became a little awkward if I couldn't get that editor like right away, you know? And a lot of times the client would be like, well, look, it's just one sentence. Why is it taking you two days to get me that sentence back? And it just might be because I'm trying to tie in the editor's time as well. So that just added to it all. So I can absolutely see the pain point of needing something, or it would be wonderful to have something that could get it down to a one-to-one ratio. So tell me a little bit about how your software does that or how it works, kind of on a step-back scale. Adam: Yeah. So basically the end goal is if you've never seen how Pozotron works, you press play, you upload your manuscript, you upload your audio, our forced alignment algorithm basically pairs the two and gives you essentially what -- to simplify it, it's kind of like a spellcheck for recorded audio. It gives you an output of what we call annotations, which are things Pozotron thinks are a missed word. So a word that you, in the manuscript, you didn't say it during the narration, an added word, which happens a lot. I have two young kids and I read them a lot of stories. And it's amazing how often I just add words for no reason -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- mispronounced words, as well as extra long pauses. So really the goal is what it does is it gives you an output saying, hey, you just put an hour of audio in. Here's the 32 things that Pozotron thinks are incorrect. What you need to do then is as you're going through, we recommend that people continue doing their full listen. So listen to every second recorded. Um, but what it does is allows people to decide, hey, Pozotron thinks that I mispronounced the word microphone because I'm looking at the word microphone on my computer right now. And you need to listen to that and say, yes, that's a mispronunciation or no, it's not. If you click pick up, it automatically goes onto your pickup report and eliminates all that manual time of creating those reports. But at its core, we have a forced alignment algorithm based on tens of thousands of hours of audio data that basically take the spoken word, compare that to the text word. And then using a probability matrix, says, we believe that this was correctly pronounced or incorrectly pronounced, as close to a 100% accuracy as you could ever get. Anne: Got it. How does it handle like words like names and how does it, how does it handle accents and different languages too? Adam: So I'll answer the last part first 'cause that's the easiest. Anne: Okay. Adam: Uh, we currently support English, Spanish, Swedish, and then French and German are in beta right now. Anne: Okay, okay. Great. Adam: So we do support them, but they're just not at the level of accuracy of the English or Spanish, primarily just because we don't have that volume of data -- Anne: Okay. Adam: -- to continue training our algorithm on. In terms of names, really, as long as it is a phonetically pronounced name, Pozotron will be able to handle it. In the name of like, what's a good example of -- a word that is spelled one way and pronounced something completely separate. Um, Pozotron will occasionally have trouble with that because what -- the way Pozotron works is, if it is phonetically correct, it will mark it as correct. But if it is, um -- Ryan, do you have a good example of a word, of a word like that? I can't think of one off the top of my head right now. Ryan: I mean, we keep using lagxoor as our sci-fi name. Anne: Lagxoor. Adam: So that would be spelled L-A-G-X-O-O-R, but pronounced L-A-G-Z-O-O-R. Pozotron will mark lag sewer as an incorrect pronunciation of L-A-G-X-O-O-R because phonetically it's incorrect. So that's why Pozotron a lot of the tools we have, our pronunciation analysis tool, our character voice guide is great to help narrators, authors, production managers, anyone involved do their preparation before the project even starts. So our proofing tool's designed to catch pickups after they happen. Our prep tools are designed to stop pickups from before you've even started recording. Anne: Can you train it for a specific name somehow or phonetically spell it so that it can then, I guess, mimic or figure out if that's correct or not? Adam: So there's a couple of things. One, yes, every time we retrain our algorithm, it gets more and more accurate. But what you can do is we have a -- let's say that Lagxoor, for example, say it's a main character, and Pozotron for the 200 times it's mentioned in the book -- Anne: Right. Adam: -- Pozotron thinks, "we think this is incorrect." Anne: Right. Adam: We have a filter out button that basically is like the ignore all in Microsoft word when you're doing spell check. "This is not a mistake. Pozotron, I know you think this is a mistake because it's phonetically wrong." You click filter out, and it will ignore every other mention of that word. Anne: Got it. Interesting now, okay. Here's a question just because I do a lot of work in medical, and a lot of times in medical, like, I don't know the word enough, so that each time it occurs in the instance of my script, that I can pronounce it exactly the same, unless I go, and I mark up my script, and I phonetically spell it each and every time, I might forget like that 10th time to emphasize the middle syllable, rather than the other syllable. Will it catch those? Or is that something that we have to just, you know, we're on the lookout for that? Adam: So again, two answers there. So the first one is we have a tool called scan occurrences, which we should probably rename it, something a little, a little better than that, but scan occurrence is what it allows to do. So let's say for example, "doliosolaphic," um, which I, I mispronounced, I butchered that, but I named that because it came up in a demo I did the other day. You can choose that one word and click scan, and it will play every single mention of that word in the audio, back to back to back to back to back. Anne: Nice! Adam: You can listen to that straight through for consistency. It's great for character names as well. Anne: Oh, that's fantastic! That'd make my life easy, a live. Adam: I have an example of a customer the other day, who was doing a book, and the word shaman, S-H-A-M-A-N, which could be pronounced "Shaw man" or "shay man". Anne: Right. Adam: He pronounced shaman nine times as "Shaw man" and one time -- Anne: Right. Adam: -- for "shay man." So he used that feature to catch that, and then you can select individual ones and either mark those individual examples of that, mark those as a pickup in your audio, or you can just export a DAW file to put a marker -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- in every mention of that word in your, in your DAW file or your DAW session to help your editor. Anne: Got it. So then at the core of all of this is AI, right? Adam: Yes. Correct. Anne: That is, it's learning. So when we upload our manuscripts and we upload our audio, is that going into help the model become more intelligent, or do you have a model that exists already and you're feeding it other data? Adam: We started by bootstrapping with publicly available data, whether it's Librivox or any of those other things. Anne: Sure. Adam: But when someone uploads audio, it's very spelled out in our terms of service, and we're going to be redoing our website right around Halloween. We'll be launching a new, just explaining exactly what we're using data for. But essentially what we do is we take random snippets of audio, audio and text paired together. And we feed those into our algorithm to train it. And this is not training it to replicate the human voice. This is training it to better recognize the human voice and the exact thing that is spoken based on the text. Anne: Got it. Adam: So it's basically just, it's almost like every bit of audio is like another drop in the swimming pool. None of it is -- you can't identify a single drop of water in a swimming pool. It all gets aggregated. Yeah. That's what we do. We basically make it so it's completely non-identifiable from an individual voice or anything like that perspective or personal identified information. But what it does is it just continues as we feed more and more data in and retrain, it just makes it more and more effective because we have more examples, more different accents, more different dialects to improve the accuracy of our algorithm. Anne: Got it. So now, do you have any plans to ever like create voices at all in your software in order to like maybe help with pickups? Or is that something that you're not really looking at? Adam: So I'm going to start with what exactly what it says in our terms of service, which is we can never do that -- Anne: Okay. Adam: -- without the express written consent of the person who uploaded the audio. Anne: Got it. Adam: So currently it is not in our plans, even from, from a business perspective. Even if we wanted to, there are companies out there that have a four or five-year headstart on us. Anne: Sure. Adam: So it would be kind of a dumb, it would be a dumb business decision. Um, I could see a future where maybe there would be a feature where you could say, say, you said, Anne instead of V, you could have a, you know, basically copy and -- Anne: Paste. Adam: -- copy and paste that word. But from a, from an AI perspective, we have, we'd have to be pretty careful on how we manage that and negotiate that with our customers -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- because we would never do it in the way that is looking to replace that customer in full. We'd just be using that -- or that narrator in full -- we'd just be using anything that we ever did, which is quite a ways out, based on the current product roadmap. Um, it would be an assist to that narrator and not be to replace that narrator. Anne: Got it. So, in terms of, let's say AI, AI in general, people fear it because I think for the most part, a lot of that fear is based on, they don't necessarily know exactly how it works or -- and they're probably very fearful that it's going to take their job away, which is not a surprise that people in the voiceover industry are afraid that AI is going to take their job away. And so what is your outlook on that? What do you, what do you say to that in terms of your software? And I know that you're not creating voices at this moment, but you are using AI technology. Adam: Yeah. So AI by itself is not Skynet from Terminator. It's not something to be feared. It's kind of like AI does what it is designed to do. So if it is designed to replace a narrator, that's what it'll do. In our case, if it is designed to be an assist to a narrator, that's what it'll do. So AI by itself is not something to fear. Reality is the companies that are creating AI voices are getting better and better. I've listened to a couple of samples lately, and some of them are really good, but the human narrator will always have that lead in terms of the humanness of the voice that -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- no matter how much -- it's like that Tom Hanks movie, "The Polar Express" a while ago where it almost got to the -- the animation was so accurate, it got weird. It was -- Anne: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam: I think it's called the -- Anne: Uncanny valley, right? Adam: Uncanny valley, that's it. Anne: Yeah. Adam: It's the same thing with AI narrators is -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- I don't think no matter -- it'll never get all the way there, but the advantages the AI narrators have over humans is they're faster, they're more accurate, and they're cheaper. So people -- we basically say, look, Pozotron is a tool. Anne: Oh wait! Say that again, please. That I, you know, how many people are going to love to hear you say that? That humans are cheap -- you know, in reality, I think they are. Adam: Yeah. So I think that's the advantage. The advantage is not that the AI narrators are better than humans, human narrators, because that's not. Anne: Exactly. Adam: But they're faster -- Anne: yeah. Adam: They're faster, they're more accurate, and they're cheaper. They're most of the time more accurate, I should say. Anne: Yeah. Adam: So using a tool like Pozotron, humans will always have that lead -- Anne: Yes. Adam: -- in the humanness of their voice -- Anne: Exactly. Adam: -- but using tools like Pozotron or many other things out there, or even just a better workflow, will help humans catch up to those AI narrators in terms of speed, accuracy and efficiency. So we kind of pitch our tool as it's almost a way for narrators to stay ahead -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- of the AI voices that aren't going anywhere. So that's really what we're trying to do is, you know, use the same tools to help narrators rather than take over some of this stuff out there. But I will say one thing, I think, no matter how good these AI voices get, there will always be a place for human voices. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I think and a lot of these companies are saying, look, we're just narrating the backlist or, you know, it'll be great for a history textbook. Something that's a thriller or a romance that requires that human emotion -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- to really make it a piece of art that audiobooks are rather than just something to listen to. One of -- our CEO said the other day, "look, if I wanted to listen to a cheaper, crappier audiobook, I'd say, 'Alexa, read me my book.'" Anne: Interesting. Yeah. And you expect it, and I think when you hit that uncanny valley where it becomes too human, you're right. It kind of, there's a point where you believe, you think it's human, then all of a sudden, maybe you'll hear that note that kind of doesn't sound right. And it'll be like, "ooh, did I just get duped? Is that a person? I thought that was a person." And then I think there's a whole trust factor when that hits. And so I agree that I think when you need that human element, I think we'll always need that. And I think in that respect, that is quicker than AI in terms of, you know, some of the companies that I've been talking to and what I've seen right now, out in AI, while these voices are great or they can sound pretty human, I think they're only human in one instance. So if you ever had to go back and redirect, right? Adam: Yeah. Anne: You know, that emotion that they just emoted, it's the same, no matter if you put it at the front of the script or the, in the middle of the script of the end of the script. And I think if you have a human that you can redirect and have a slightly different nuance of sad, I think that's where humans are quicker and can actually -- I don't know if you can say it can be cheaper because I think these AI voices, they're on computers. They basically are generated by engines. And so somewhere in the ethers, you know, there's a computer out there creating that job or creating that audio for the job, and there's money, you know. Adam: For sure. Anne: There's -- that costs money. And so I feel like the human will always be there. What type of audiobooks -- both, I'd like to get both of your opinions -- what type of audiobooks do you think an AI voice is appropriate for? Or is it not? Adam: Appropriate is a -- appropriate is a different word. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I think instead of using appropriate, I would say acceptable maybe. Anne: Okay. Adam: Anything that's not going to require huge conveyance of emotion or feeling. So that's where I think, you know, educational materials, textbooks, things like that, where you're just absorbing information, I think it is less problematic than if you're reading a book, and there's a scene where a family member dies, and it's really important that that narrator captures that sadness and all those emotions and the subtleness -- subtlety of emotions. Whereas, you know, an AI narrator probably -- or even if the AI narrator can do that, my understanding is currently there's a lot of manual work in the backend essentially saying on this syllable, AI narrator be sad, on this one, pick it up a little bit. Anne: Sure, sure. Adam: So my understanding is currently there is some manual stuff that needs to happen for it to work -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- entirely properly. Anne: Yeah. And I think that it starts to take as much time if you need to dial that emotion to a certain way or dial the speed or whatever, you're, you're changing in that AI, I think you're going to spend more time post-processing to get it to sound more human. And then it ends up taking possibly longer than a human, you know, utilizing something like Pozotron to help, right, proof and get their job done faster. Interesting. So what do you think then is the future of AI for, let's start with what would be the future of AI and how it's being used at Pozotron? And then also, how do you feel AI will ultimately be in five years or ten years? Will it take over the voiceover industry? Or what do you, what are your thoughts? Adam: I'd like Ryan to talk to his -- Ryan's got a really, I mean, we all share it, but Ryan's got an interesting vision on kind of the future of audiobook production with human, with human narrators. I'd like you to go into that, Ryan. Ryan: So as far as the future of AI in Pozotron, I don't even think of it in terms of AI, as I'm working through my day, as I'm doing my testing. That doesn't enter into much of my thought process. Having spent thousands of hours looking for misreads and doing reporting, those two things were the absolute worst part of my job. They are the hardest to do consistently. It's the easiest to make mistakes. And the fact that there's a tool, whether it's AI or not, that makes that part easier, that's my push. That's my function. The fact that AI is there helping make that part better for the proofing process, for the scanning of scripts, for all of that, it's that way to make things easier for people, and the, the AI part of it, the mechanics behind it, don't concern me all that much as a technician. And on the creative side, I would love to see AI be that tool that makes the performance go to that next level. You know that you have an AI behind you telling you when you make your mistakes. So you don't have to worry about it. Anne: Yeah. Ryan: As a narrator, okay, you have these seven pages to do and "oh, am I going to make any mistakes? How long is it going to take, you know, my engineer to get that back to me, who do I have to turn it into next? How do I note it?" All of those things are going to be in your head, but if you have a complete set of tools that look for those things, you can be absolutely peaceful and zenned out, knowing that you have this extra set of eyes and ears and knowledge behind you. And so the future to me as a performer, being able to come to their tools, their microphone and their computer, and do an entire production on their own and have it not just a one-to-one ratio with editing or proofing or -- but a one-to-one production of the whole thing, how they want it, how they love it, how it's supposed to sound. So that's what I see in a few years is a set of tools that allows you, Anne, to go up to your station and make an audiobook. Anne: I love that. Ryan: That's what I see. Anne: Yeah. Ryan: That's what I'm excited for. Anne: Yeah, it gives you the time and the peace of mind to go and be an artist -- Ryan: Yep. Anne: -- which is what you are meant to do, and not necessarily worry about how long it's going to take to edit. I love that outlook. That's wonderful. Thank you for that. Absolutely. Adam: From the AI side of that, it's really just taking either algorithms we built or algorithms we are building to basically make all of the work around audiobooks easier. So an example right now is in our next step of this character voice tool that we're using, we're building an algorithm that will score, yeah, every single mention of a character's name based on two attributes. One of them is that character. So let's take, for example, Sherlock Holmes links to a verb denoting speech also modified by an adverb. So it'll take every single mention of that character's name and the book, and give you an output of the top 20 examples of that character speaking, where there is a description about how that character spoke. So when you're putting together your character voice prep -- Anne: Wow. Adam: -- and deciding as a narrator, hey, this is the voice I'm going to use -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- you can use our tool scan to through the top 20 mentions saying Sherlock spoke aggressively, Sherlock spoke in a high tone, Sherlock spoke, exclaimed sadly, or something like that. Where you can basically use this tool to easily figure out all the cues from the book and then plan out your character's voice. Anne: Wow, that's great. Adam: And then the other side of it, so really instead of having to do what they're currently doing -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- which is reading the book with a highlighter and taking note of everything they're doing, you can parse an entire book and take all those cues in a fraction of that time while still getting the same high quality work. And then the next step of that, that we've already built into our pronunciation guide, is once you've done your work, you've created your pronunciation list. You've created your character voice guide. You can currently export that into a marked up PDF where every word in your pronunciation guide is automatically highlighted in your script with a call-out box saying this is the phonetic pronunciation -- Anne: Wow. Adam: -- or this is your note saying how, how that voice should sound. And then in the future, it's going to be a teleprompter where instead of just seeing a call-out box, you click play, and you listen to yourself speaking in that character's voice. You pause your recording, listen to yourself, and then click record again and start going. So removing all of those -- Anne: Oh, that's wonderful. Adam: -- switching between apps. Anne: Yup. Adam: And, you know, some people have their character list on their iPhone in a note -- Anne: Yup, yup. Adam: -- or something like that, everything is centralized and that takes -- gets us closer to that one-to-one recording time to finished hour of audio time. Anne: Right, so you can get right to the point in your wav file that you need to be. Because when I go back in and have to do pickups, I have to hunt for where was that? You know, where was that part in my, in my single wav file there that I said this particular thing that I have to do the pickup. So that's, that's phenomenal. I, I think what a wonderful tool. How can BOSSes out there get in touch with you, find out more about your software, maybe -- is that a subscription based model? Adam: Um, so first, uh, they can check us out at www.pozotron.com. That's P-O-Z-O-T-R-O-N.com. Um, or email us at hello@pozotron.com. Uh, we have a number of pricing plans from pay as you go, which has absolutely no subscription. You pay $10 per hour of audio you upload, all charged down to the minute, but it's easier to say $10 per hour than 16.667 cents per minute, but all the way up to, you know, we have some, some of the biggest publishers are putting six, 700 hours of audio a month, and you're getting, and you're paying a much reduced per hour rate based on whatever volume you're doing. So we have very flexible plans from literally you put in 10 minutes of audio a month up to thousands of hours of audio a month. Um, we're very flexible and our subscriptions are only ever month to month. So if you have a big, either increase in volume, you can jump up to a bigger plan. If you have a lull over the Christmas season or holiday season, um, you can go down, 'cause we never want people to be paying for something they're not using because we're a believer in, you know, we'd rather lower our revenues from a customer for a month to make a happier customer because that customer is going to stay with us over the longterm. Anne: Fantastic. And I'm going to push for anybody that does long-form narration, really. I can absolutely see this as being a tool that can really help us, so fantastic. You guys, thank you so very much for joining me today. It has been amazing, and BOSSes out there, make sure to check out Pozotron. I think it's going to really help you do your job better, and thanks again for sharing your time with us today. And I am going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL that allows us to connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Thanks again, Ryan and Adam. It's been a pleasure. Ryan: Thank you. Adam: Thank you very much. This was, this was really fun. Anne: Awesome. Alright, BOSSes. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye. Adam: Bye! Ryan: Bye! >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Max: Hello, welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. I'm your host, Max Armbruster and today, on the show, I'm super happy to welcome Adam Chambers who is the founder, CEO of Applichat Healthcare. Applichat is a company I've first found about on another podcast The Chad and Cheese and was one of the first companies, along with  mine, to move into the chatbot space and applying chatbot specifically to the challenges of sourcing and sourcing on social media. Since then, Adam has focused his company on the healthcare, on the booming healthcare sector, which has gone through so much changes in the last year and we're here to talk to him about sourcing and how to source for nurses and healthcare professionals and anything else that where the conversation might take us. Welcome to the show, Adam.Adam: Thank you so much. To everyone listening, I just wanna say Max is amazing. Really helped me with my career. So, you should keep listening to the show and buy his stuff.Max: Thanks, buy my stuff, yes, and I'm not selling on this show. I'm just using it to remind ourselves that recruitment never stops, that never stops changing and that to stay abreast of what people are doing and maybe get a couple of ideas for my own business, as I hope some of the listeners will. So for the people who are new to Applichat and Applichat Healthcare as newly-rebranded, can you say in your own words what you guys do?Adam: Yeah, so, we really specialize in connecting nurses, employers in under 48 hours. So sort of means you guys pay, because whenever it comes to job search as a nurse you have four or five different options and the one that's gonna give you an offer quickest is usually the one that you're gonna take. Like they don't have a time to mess about. So what we do is we make tough application process, like you do with your chatbots, simple as possible, 60 seconds, five to ten questions. And then we immediately get them in front of a recruiter, at one of our clients. So, it's an instantaneous process.Max: Front of the panel, before it hits the ATS?Adam: Yeah pretty much, like before even they send their resume. We try and call them within one hour, get them booked in. And one we sent one on Friday, so today's Monday, we sent one on Friday and she just got made a job offer today plus two working days, we can say to the nurses that we're the best cause we have these relationships with our clients where we can move you quickly and then to the clients we say, nurses want to be moved quickly so when can I do that for them?Max: Mhm. The time element with nurses, is it more acute than you know I guess other jobs? I guess the time elements become more pressing the lower the salaries are, it seems like you know. The people who are less paid on the great you know pyramid of things, are the ones who need the money the most, and the highest time pressure, I suppose, to act on things. But generally speaking, I would imagine that healthcare workers, presently, are very well-paid, that they would be in their comfortable category.Adam: Yeah, I think a nurse could expect to get 70 thousand dollars a year, depending where they are, it's an average. The speed thing is not so much that they need the money, it's more so that the employers need them. So, they'll make four, five applications and then it's a matter of sort of who can get to them first. So, I think there is like—where like the first employee you speak to, the first one you interview to, the first facility you visit, it has an improved impression compared to the other ones. So, that's why it's so important to be the first one to get an active job-seeking nurse because here she already has four or five applications and there'll be a couple offers by the time you speak to them.Max: Absolutely. So, I think that's true for most jobs and certainly in a hot market like this, it's a race. So, the diss on social media and social media sourcing is that, yeah, you can get leads but they're not good quality leads. These people don't even pick up the phone, they're not qualified candidates. How do you work around that objection and what are your thoughts on social media versus job boards?Adam: I think, if you could get a hundred applicants from Indeed, more would get hired than the hundred that you get from Facebook. So I don't think it's a black and white diss of saying that social media doesn't work for recruiting, it's a spectrum. Social media works for recruiting, you just need to get more candidates and that's actually a good match because 70, 75 percent of nurses, at least, will go on Facebook or Instagram every single month compared to  five, ten  percent go on Indeed. So, you've got a bigger market of candidates, but less competition when it comes to employers. So, I love the spectrum ranges, from just looking to ready-to-apply on social media. The fact that there is that portion of ready-to-apply, means you can still make placements and just as many placements as from job board seem to get more people. And at the same time, that perception of rubbish leads who don't pick up the phone. I think it is ingrained in the people because they're so used to getting their candidates from Indeed or through this career site. Like people who take loose steps to find a job and they don't know how to treat a lead, like they don't even call a lead, in our space at least, they just say, as a nurse, he isn't interested. Whereas, we know, like you have to market to those people and you have to send them emails and a text every so often and like build the candidate pool and then you can use those. So...Max: So you're building the talent pool by getting their attention, but once you've got them looking, it may take a few ads, a few messages before you can activate them into a job-seeker.Adam: Yeah. It's more like a few months, and sometimes none of them will, but you have to do something.Max: You know. That's how to make the economics work is to have that re-engagement strategy. So, maybe from practically speaking, what are the initial steps if somebody says you know, well, I don't wanna create competitors for Applichat, but if somebody says, I'm a healthcare provider, I wanna hire some nurses and I haven't tried, I don't know, Facebook or Instagram, is that where you're advertising?Adam: So, we don't really talk about so much like in those presentations whenever we're selling to someone because if we say the word Facebook, like, that has so many connotations to them that it sort of distracts them away from the point, yeah. But if we are advertising there, like, we use the traffic that go onto that site, advertise to them. That's how you utilize it.Max: Okay, yeah. I think most marketplaces are the same way. Everybody goes to the same places to get traffic, which is you know you go where the people are, which is TikTok or Facebook or Instagram, and then you drive people to a website. And so, you've stopped maybe doing the whole native lead capturing where you do everything on Facebook, and now you drive them to a more, let's say, traditional website?Adam: So yeah, well it depends what channel we're advertising on. So, if for example, if we're doing it on Instagram like then, it get real easy for someone to input their information, like natively. But if it's on Youtube, it's better if you send them off Youtube, on the website. So it really depends, I think, on how people are used to using the channel and then what technology the channel provides to enable you to take advantage of the people who are using it. Not on a bad way, that sounded bad. Take advantage of their behaviors.Max: For example, with the retargeting or being able to, you know, to organize the profiles and categories?Adam: Yeah, exactly.Max: So, um.Adam: Retargeting, it comes back to, like, the spectrum I was talking about. If someone isn't ready to apply, then it would be a good idea to retarget them with an ad which acknowledges that. So, if for example, you have Talkpush as a CRM, for example, and a candidate's been stuck on a stage for a couple of weeks, then I like them to start a campaign which has a message directed to people who are still thinking about it. It's a much smarter way to advertise and just like pushing jobs to like people who aren't listening. Max: Mhm. And for example, that kind of content would be a video about, you know, career reconversion. Would you advertise directly some employer branding materials and videos about this is why it's so great to work here. How do you do it in a more subtle way than just push job description?Adam: Yeah. There's two useful ways. So, the first is what you mentioned, employer branding stuff. Stories of real people really resonate well with nurses because a lot of them have a calling to care for people, so they really value personal connection, and also they value the opinions of other nurses, more than anything. So, personal stories like that, people speaking to the camera. Or, you can just, sort of, call, what's the saying, call a spade a spade, and say like, hey we saw you clicked in our ad recently, still thinking about it,  and just sort of call that out and then revisit some of the reasons why they might have clicked the ad in the first place.Max: Right, reminders and retargeting that way. I agree with you that these personal stories would be great, sort of, bait. And for Applichat,  are you bringing stories during marketing, you bring stories from your different customers in the healthcare space, and you go straight to the candidates to share their stories or you have more targeted campaigns that are customer-specific? Is it branded Applichat or is it branded for your customers?Adam: Yeah, I think of like, you're gonna tell the story of the place of work and the people that they will work with. They don't really care so much about our process and how we help them. They care about what their life will be like in this new job. So, you wanna, like, show them what it could be like, show them that beautiful reflection could be them, if they do it.Max: That initial lead that you engage with, so if somebody wants to get started on sourcing on social media, they wanna make their own mistakes, and they wanna figure it out without going through your company, how would you advise them to get started? You know, to get more familiar with social media sourcing. What would be step one?Adam: So, step one, get a hundred dollars from someone.Max: Their parents?Adam: Just get, say, cause you always have to think like, of the practicalities first I think. So in the past I've done webinars on using Facebook for jobs, but no one ever does it. You just think about the practicalities and the settings. So, you need to get approval from someone and a hundred dollars, a small budget, from someone who has decision-making authority and say, I wanna try this new thing. And then it's just a case of starting going on Google and Youtube and looking up how to create ads on Instagram or Facebook or Youtube. Follow that through, create an ad, and I think the most important thing is your ad shouldn't be a job description, it should be an offer. Because on these sites, you're not competing with the retirement home next door or the hospital next door, you're competing with Coca-Cola, McDonalds. Everyone trying to sell everyone else's stuff. So, it's so important that you are able to catch people's eye, awaken something inside them, make them feel a bit of emotion, and you can't do that with a job description which says the working hours and the responsibilities. You have to come in with the PN points and the potential solutions. So for example, one of our ads is for relocation to North Carolina and we're targeting travel nurses. So, we will go wide with a message to those travel nurse that talks about how they might be tired of moving about so much, that talks about how they might be frustrated with the inconsistency of their lives, and then comes in with the opportunity that get like consistency, stop moving about, and still live somewhere which is beautiful.Max: Put your life in order and go watch the beautiful trees as autumn comes to North Carolina.Adam: Yeah.Max: Like a travel ad.Adam: Yeah, we need to like, recruiters need to go away from like the science of like number, well numbers are important but like, don't just say the facts, you know, tell the story as well. We need to move towards being like poets and artists and writers. I think we need to think of ourselves as higher than recruiters cause we're all doing so far more than just creating jobs and filling jobs. At least that's how I think about it.Max: Everything that you just said is quite opposite to some of the advice I've been delivering myself, which isAdam: Oh yeah?Max: You know in some market, you have very direct advertising, just don't forget to put the salary, you know, don't forget to be very specific because you don't wanna mislead candidates into not knowing what they're looking for. But, I suppose, I'm thinking more about active job-seekers. Even before that you're opening their mind to the possibility of a different career or relocation and still today, I think, Facebook and Instagram, or Youtube, they don't allow you to target specifically job-seekers, right? It's not like you have a cookie on their browser and you know that they were on Indeed and Zip last week.Adam: Yeah, you need to target them with what you say in the ad. SoMax: Yeah.Adam: That's what you need, something that's gonna make them click on it.Max: Yeah. Right. Well, I think we've got some great bits of information and advice here for our audience. So, thanks a lot Adam for sharing, and how can people get ahold of you and Applichat if they're in the healthcare space and looking for help in hiring more nurses?Adam: Yeah, just add me on LinkedIn. Adam Chambers. C H A M B E R S.Max: Great. Adam: That's it. Max: Thanks a lot. Thanks for joining.Adam: All right, thank you for inviting me. Cheers. Max: If you're sourcing on social media, the best thing to do is to tell a story more so than in other medium, a job description won't do it alone. You need to tell the story of the people whose life you're going to effect. Adam Chambers has been doing that for nurses, but the same holds true for other professions. Hope you found this interview inspiring that you got something out of it, and that you'll be back for more, remember to subscribe and share.

About AdamAdam Zimman is a start-up Advisor providing guidance on leadership, platform architecture, product marketing, and GTM strategy. He has over 20 years of experience working in a variety of roles from software engineering to technical sales. He has worked in both enterprise and consumer companies such as VMware, EMC, GitHub, and LaunchDarkly. Adam is driven by a passion for inclusive leadership and solving problems with technology. As an Advisor he works with a number of startups and nonprofits. His perspective on life has been shaped by a background in Physics and Visual Art, an ongoing adventure as a husband and father, and a childhood career as a fire juggler.Links:Twitter: https://twitter.com/azimman TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at VMware. Let's be honest—the past year has been far from easy. Due to, well, everything. It caused us to rush cloud migrations and digital transformation, which of course means long hours refactoring your apps, surprises on your cloud bill, misconfigurations and headache for everyone trying manage disparate and fractured cloud environments. VMware has an answer for this. With VMware multi-cloud solutions, organizations have the choice, speed, and control to migrate and optimizeapplications seamlessly without recoding, take the fastest path to modern infrastructure, and operate consistently across the data center, the edge, and any cloud. I urge to take a look at vmware.com/go/multicloud. You know my opinions on multi cloud by now, but there's a lot of stuff in here that works on any cloud. But don't take it from me thats: VMware.com/go/multicloud and my thanks to them again for sponsoring my ridiculous nonsense.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and periodically I like to talk to people about different aspects of the industry. One that I think is interesting that doesn't get spoken about a lot directly is the idea of leadership. My guest today is Adam Zimman, who's a startup advisor providing guidance on—as mentioned—leadership, platform architecture, Product Marketing, and GTM Strategy—GTM, of course, standing for go-to-market. Who goes to market? That's right, little piggies. Adam, thank you for joining me.Adam: Thank you, Corey. It's a pleasure to be here.Corey: I imagine that you usually don't advise your clients to call their GTM execs, little piggies?Adam: Well, I mean, I guess it depends. You know, if you're actually a bacon manufacturer then that might be actually a reasonable thing to do.Corey: Yeah, that's a level of investment in the product that you usually don't see in most environments, but we take what we can get. So, snark and cynicism aside, what is it you do?Adam: Ultimately, I look for ways in which I can add value. And I've had the privilege in my career to be exposed to a lot of amazing companies, and I look for ways to be able to take the lessons that I've learned, mainly through mistakes and failure, and be able to translate those into success for others.Corey: Most recently, you were at LaunchDarkly for a while, taking a number of different VP roles. While you were there we spoke, back in 2017, briefly while you were in that environment. And in fact, my first guest on the show was one of the folks on your team, Heidi Waterhouse, who has been back at least once since then, and hopefully more than that. But it's been an interesting ride there. Before that you were at places like GitHub—or JIF-ub as I insist on pronouncing it—EMC-slash-VMware—where does one start and the other stop? Hard to say, it's sort of a giant corporate shell game—but you've spent a lot of time in large companies and small ones as well, and now you're effectively hanging out your shingle as a strategic advisor.Adam: This is true. I mean, I think that one of the things that I've found is that doesn't really matter what size of company you're at; you're going to find new and interesting challenges, and you really don't have to look that hard. And so one of the things that I found consistently, and I would say that this was most pointedly phrased for me by Emily Freeman in the context of, “DevOps is this amazing thing of people, process, and technology. And the reality is, is the only one that's complicated is the people.” And oddly enough, small companies, you still got people; big companies, you still got people. So, therein lies some of the challenges.Corey: And people are inherently non-deterministic; you never know what you're going to get by applying the same input, even to the same person just separated out by time. It's a challenge, and the problem that I see across the industry is that very often, you'll have a team of engineers and you'll pick the best and brightest one of those engineers, and, “Congratulations, you manage the team now.” Now, management's inherently orthogonal skill, and what you've simultaneously done is gotten rid of a great engineer and introduced a terrible manager. And that's through no fault of this person's own. But when I started managing teams, I got surprisingly far by just doing the exact opposite of all the stuff that my previous terrible bosses have done.And that works really well right up until it doesn't in a variety of probably fairly easily predictable ways. And the challenge that I'm seeing is that there is no book on how to do these things. If you want to climb an engineering ladder, great; there's a bunch of very qualified people who will tell you how to go from wherever you are technically, to where you want to go, and what you have to demonstrate, and what you have to do. Leadership is squishy, in that sense. At least it always has been to me.Adam: The interesting part that I would challenge you a little bit on is that there are thousands of interesting books on leadership, even smaller subsection on management specifically. I think one of the challenges there is that they're not well circulated within tech as an industry. I think that there are a few that people come back to, like Andy Grove's book on his experience building Intel. There are a lot of books out there that have done a lot for talking about how to manage people and how to think about what are the specific tactical things that you do. It's having one-on-ones, it's having meetings with clear agendas, it's being able to look for ways to set expectations with your organization.I think one of the challenges that I see pretty consistently, is the fact that that effort to be able to go out and find that information or to learn those skills is something that is put on to, as you said, this individual who is coming to management through punishment. They've been extraordinarily successful and now you will punish them by putting them in a role where they can no longer do all the things that they enjoyed, that made them successful. And I think that you see time and time again, where organizations put people in these roles, but they don't do anything to either prepare them for it or do anything to continue that notion of professional development or training for those individuals once they're in those roles.Corey: There are a lot of books out there for any discipline under the sun; some are good, some are terrible, most are somewhere in the middle of the road law of averages winds up working out. I think a key difference, on some level, is I can take to Twitter, or a forum, or something like that, and complain about software; the computer isn't doing the thing I think the computer should be doing. And that's great. I can't very well go and complain about managerial issues while actively having a team and not find myself no longer having managerial issues, if you catch my meaning. It's hard to find communities around this stuff.Adam: I think that you're right. And I think that this is one of those things where not only that, but I think that we also in tech have predominantly taken a very hierarchical structure to the way that we think about management and leadership, to the sense where oftentimes, it is not only discouraged but downright forbidden for an individual contributor to challenge their manager if they want to continue to have gainful employment. And I think that this is a cultural thing that, you know, it's funny; I know that you recently did an episode with John Allspaw and were talking about incident remediation. And I think that one of the things that I've always tried to do as a manager, as a leader, is think about opportunities for being able to do that type of incident response, for people. If you have a person that leaves, whether that is forced attrition, whether that is voluntary attrition, whether that is something that you wanted to happen, something that you didn't want to happen, what are you doing from a perspective of kind of a post-incident assessment to learn from that? And I think that the next level that is, how do you do it so that you actually, in some way, incorporate that for the individual that's actually leaving. Because ideally, they're learning from that experience, as well.Corey: Back when I was a generally terrible employee, I decided at some point, I was tired of dealing with computer problems and wanted to deal with people problems instead. Now, let's be clear, I found a path to do that in a very different direction than I expected at the time, but at the time, it was, “Great. I'm going to go ahead and become a manager of a team.” And I talked to a number of folks about all right, what is the path to go from decent technical engineer—I was a senior SRE type at most of these places—into management. And not just talking to people at the companies I was at, but talking to people in the larger community, and every engineering manager who I respected and talked to about, it always seemed like they got this lucky break at just the right time and that made them a manager for the first time.And once you have a track record of having managed people, then you're in. You can go back and forth between IC and management roles. But, “Well, you've never managed people before, so we're not going to take a chance on you to manage people.” The way that I did it, honestly, was I—a few times—I wound up joining startups where I was effectively the only ops person; we suddenly started scaling and having fun problems, and well, I did negotiate for that director title, so all right, I have teams now. I was more of a team lead than most things, in some cases.But it led to a really pretty interesting evolution in how I approach these things. I find now that the right answer is for me not to manage people at all because what I fundamentally do here at The Duckbill Group is basically become the loud, obnoxious center of attention. And I think that what managers need to do is showcase their people instead. And those two things, at least in my view, are opposed. And it's very challenging to do both of them, let alone well. For me at least, I tend to back away from the management side of things almost entirely and abdicate the role. Which is great. People self-manage, right?Adam: Well, I mean, I think that there are individuals who definitely will take—have the ability to self-organize and self-manage to a degree. I think that the challenge that you run into is, as the organization scales, as the nature of their role tends to change with that scaling organization, it becomes more challenging for them to navigate through those changes. A great example would be, I have had the pleasure and the privilege a number of times in my career of managing extraordinarily senior individuals; these are individuals who, to your point, don't need a whole lot of care and feeding. But what they do sometimes need is they need someone who is able to be in rooms that they're not in, whether that's from a higher-level leadership meeting understanding larger organizational goals, or they need someone that's going to check them; they need someone that they can trust, someone that they can bounce their ideas off of to know is this something that's going to be perceived value or something that's going to actually take me in the wrong direction, or somebody that's, kind of like, paying attention to the work product that they're doing and giving them some coaching, whether that's cheerleading or whether that's connecting of saying, “Hey, there's also this other person you should talk to.” Those types of things are really valuable for those individuals who are, to your point, a little bit more self-sufficient.Corey: On some level, I ran into this trap a lot, and having over drinks conversations with a bunch of people who went on similar paths, it's blindingly obvious that it's a dumb move in hindsight, but an awful lot of us did it, where we're sitting there as engineers with the belief of, “Ah, if I can make my manager—or beyond, several skip-levels up—look incredibly foolish in the middle of a large meeting, they will inherently see the value of what I have to say and will thus elevate me to management.” As it turns out, they elevate you to customer because you're not working there anymore, in many cases. And when I talk to people about this, it usually has that lightbulb coming on moment of as soon as you hear it, of course, it is blindingly obvious that you aren't going to sarcastically obnoxious your way into being management. Instead, the path there—in hindsight, also blindly obvious—is act as if: act managerial; help to effectively carry on your manager's message to the rest of the team, and when you have reservations or whatnot, talk to them in private rather than calling them out. And it's the obvious stuff of who gets promoted to management? Well, the people that look managerial. And that is what that looks like, in many respects.Adam: And this is one of the reasons why, when I talk about management I like to separate the notion of management from leadership. Because I think that anyone can be a leader. You don't actually have to be the administrative manager of an individual to be a leader to them.Corey: I saw a great poster once when I was younger. “Leaders are like eagles. We don't have either of them here.”Adam: [sigh]. Yeah, yeah. Ugh. I do miss good motivational posters.Corey: Oh, yeah.Adam: You know, I think that there's some truth to it. I think that finding people who are genuinely invested in being able to enable the success of others—which is how I define leadership—is challenging. I think that, especially in rather capitalistic-type industry like we're in, there is a lot of measurement of people's success by their own personal achievements and by their ability to beat their own drum. And I think that it's something that is, frankly, a failing of our industry, where we don't do a better job of encouraging folks, and rewarding folks that actually look out for others and enable the success of others. Because I think that's something that is—ultimately you think about how you build strong teams, and it's not about getting a bunch of individuals who can do amazing things individually. It's about getting individuals who are capable of working together and being able to do more than they would be able to if they were simply working individually.Corey: Do you ever find that people are chasing management in many respects because they think that it's something very different than what it is, and then find themselves in situations where well, I'm the dog that caught the car that I was chasing and only now do I realize that I have no idea how to drive the thing?Adam: Oh, absolutely. So, this is something that has been interesting me a lot recently, in the sense that I think we as an industry also do a very poor job of measuring management, measuring leadership. We give a lot of power to managers through performance reviews to measure their individual contributors, but there are very few companies who actually efficiently do things like 360 reviews, which has always confused me because I think that implies that you're getting feedback from all around you, as opposed to what you really want is you want feedback pointed back at you, which would be 180. But maybe that's just—Corey: Let's be clear, that was also pioneered by the German [Wehrmacht 00:13:48] in World War II, which is yeah, basically how some people I've worked with do tend to manage.Adam: Yeah. I think that if we can think about how do we measure the success of a manager, is it simply a function of the output of their team, or are there other efficiency metrics that you should be looking at? Very obvious one is how efficient is a manager from a perspective of the utilization of their resources? And when I think about that, I think about are they actually able to effectively hire? Are they able to effectively retain the people that they hire?What does it look like for the people on their organization from a promotion perspective in terms of skill growth? Do they become more valuable over time? Those are ways in which we can think about how we measure the manager, potentially, directly. And then there's indirect things like what's the qualitative aspect of those individuals that work for them? Are they people who are enjoying the work that they're doing?Are they motivated to continue to work towards the company's vision and mission, to be able to actually make their manager look good, but also make the company successful?Corey: A challenge, too, because I've seen this myself is, all right, you're not elevated to manager. Congratulations. It's not really a promotion. It's a lateral move. However, a lot of companies don't treat it that way.They don't compensate it that way, et cetera. And oh, okay, management, it turns out is not for me. There's no real good way to say, “I'm going back to being an IC,” especially at the same company, without it being perceived by many—rightly or wrongly—as a demotion or a failure.Adam: This question of, like, motivation to people, why do they want to go into management? I think that oftentimes this is misplaced. A lot of times the number one motivation that I've heard has nothing to do with wanting to actually help people or solve people problems, as you said earlier; it has to do with I want a bigger paycheck, I want more seniority, I want more responsibility, and therefore the only path available to me is management. In fact, many career ladders at organizations require an individual contributor to go to a management position before they can become a principal or a staff-level engineer, which is nonsense. First of all, why would you torture the individual to do something that is so completely and utterly outside of where their interests are? Secondly, why would you just decimate your lower-level individual contributors, your newer individual contributors by having someone who is completely non-inclined towards management be responsible for them? Oh.Corey: Oh, yeah. Used to be your peer; now they manage you, and great. I think people underestimate exactly how broad the blast radius of a manager is.Adam: Yeah. Talk to anyone, and they'll be more than happy to tell you the worst manager that they've ever had. At the same time, they'll also probably be able to tell you the best manager they've ever had.Corey: Oh, yeah. I called both of those out—only one the one of those by name, by the way—in conference talks that I've had because it's—yeah, you can probably guess which one I would call out and which one I would not name publicly—yeah—Adam: It depends on the conference, I guess. But yeah.Corey: Oh, yeah, absolutely. If it was you-know-what-your-problem-is con, yeah, it went super well.Adam: [laugh].Corey: It was fun. And management, especially in the current era is getting interesting, as we're seeing the heating up of the market in a bunch of different ways. And I understand, to be clear, that Twitter is not a perfect microcosm of the industry, but there's a recurring theme that I'm seeing among a number of engineering types that seemed to get—and again, I don't want to get letters for this, so if I misstate it, audience, please go ahead and be kind—but there seems to be a certain thread running through engineering communities that the purpose of a company is to provide a utopian work environment for its staff. Now, as someone who runs a company myself, yeah, I absolutely want to provide the kind of working environment I wish I'd had in a bunch of different environments. And that's not going to work for everyone, but that's okay.But fundamentally we're here to make money, and ideally, enough monies that we can keep the lights on. And that does mean that, however, we want to treat our staff that has to be subordinate to can we continue as a going concern? So yeah, it turns out, we can't—sustainably—outbid Netflix on every hire that we make and we aren't able to wind up having three catered meals a day as a full remote company delivered to everyone's house. Now, I'd like to, in a world where money flows like water, but it doesn't. For better or worse, there are constraints, and constraints shape us.But there's a thread that I'm starting to see of… I hesitate to call it entitlement, but it trends slightly toward the direction of folks who are in tech, and in some ways seem very far removed from business realities—now, let's be clear in the FAANG world, yeah, it's pretty attenuated. And in startup land where well, we're the VC backed, so we're losing money by the billion but we're making it up in volume. Great. That is not necessarily what I'm talking about here. I'm seeing a thread where, oh, engineers are clearly the smartest people in any company, which means that every other department should defer to them. I disagree with that position.Adam: I want to follow that thread a little bit with regards to engineers. So, I've worked as a software developer—Corey: My condolences.Adam: Yeah. I've worked as a technical salesperson. I've had the opportunity to work in pretty much every department with the exceptions of HR and finance. So, that has been part of my career of jack of all trades, master of none, but it has given me some interesting insights in terms of the value that different organizations, different individuals, bring to a company. And I think that—one of the things that I will say is that for the longest time, in large organizations, especially non-tech industry organizations, the engineer or the developer was at the same expectations or the role as someone in the janitorial staff.It was basically, “You're part of the plumbing. You just do the things so that the tech just works, and we're going to have the other business folks that are more responsible for actually making decisions that are going to make our business money.” The quintessential example is someone like Kraft Foods or someone like John Deere, right, where you're building tractors; for the longest time, the guy who ran the website wasn't going to be the guy who was going to make or break John Deere's quarterly earnings. Now, you've got tractors that literally are more computers than they are mechanical devices and so you suddenly have this change in dynamic with regards to the importance of that developer. But I think that something that's interesting, also, is that those other people who worked at the company didn't go away.They're still there; they're still important. In fact, they're still oftentimes making the buying decisions on behalf of the developers. The developers aren't the ones that are making those choices. And so you need to figure out, how do you actually make the technology choices and the technology outcomes accessible to individuals that are in roles that were, historically, had nothing to do with tech.This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: I've always been a big believer in the idea that if you're going to transition into a new field, be it into tech, out of tech, et cetera, great. In almost every case, you should find ways to do that laterally. I think that this idea that, oh, you're going to go ahead and just start over with an entry-level job after you've been in a field for five years—no. Find the position that's halfway between where you are and where you think you want to go next and start getting exposure there. In time, it's those niches that add value that distinguish you from other folks.It turns out that they don't generally want to hire someone in almost any role that comes from Central Casting, where it's alright, give me a standard MBA with the following pedigree and drop them in as my new executive, whatever. No. They want to see things like industry experience; they want to see things that distinguish folks, and having experience in industries that are not traditionally, purely what this role is, is super helpful in a lot of different ways. What I do pretty clearly blends finance and tech; that goes reasonably well. Increasingly it starts to blend media, which is something I don't pretend to understand. But here we are, he said into the microphone.Adam: Yeah. Well, as long as you're not starting the next Fox News, I'm fine with that.Corey: No, no. Generally not.Adam: Okay, fair enough. But I think that you're right. This is one of the things where, trailing back, we've throughout this conversation to the notion of leadership, this is something that I found extraordinarily rewarding and empowering that I've done with individuals that I've brought into new organizations, either through initial conversations during an interview process, or during, as part of their onboarding, is I sit down, and I actually talk to them about what are their plans? What are their expectations? What are their goals, not only for the next 30, 60, 90 days in this role that we're talking about but what are they thinking about from a perspective of what do they want to do in the next year? In the next three years? Five years? Ten years? What are those checkpoints of what do you want to do in this role? What do you want to do at this company? What do you want to do with your career? Like, where do you see it headed?And it doesn't mean that you're writing this in stone, or that I'm going to hold you to it, but I think that one of those things that's really empowering for a leader is to be able to help those individuals find those connective threads that tie one position to the next and help them get there. If they're somebody who is saying, “Hey, look, I'm currently a developer, but I really wish that I could give more talks.” Okay, well, that's great for me to know. Let's put you on some projects that maybe actually would result in great content for a talk that you could give at a conference. And then we'll figure out, how do we work with the marketing department to be able to help you bring that to fruition?There's a lot of ways to be able to leverage this experience that you have as a leader, as a manager, to an individual who's coming up in their career and saying, “Hey, look. This is how some more ancillary things are connected.” And being able to bring those back to them.Corey: I really wish, on some level, that there was a more defined path toward a lot of these things, where the stuff is explained to folks. So often, I had terrible managers that, in hindsight, weren't that terrible. Because I didn't understand where the role started and stopped, I tended to view the role of the manager is there to protect the team. The end. And be our advocate in the organization, and get us the thing that we want, and what do we want? Comfy chairs.And it turns out that isn't ever how it really works. If I had to define management, it would basically be, balancing competing priorities more than it is almost anything else. And counterintuitively, the higher you rise in an organization, the more responsibility you have, and the less you can actually directly do. Everything you do drives influence. And that's it. That's how it distills down.Adam: You talk about the engineer that wants to move into management role because that's how they see their career progressing. This is a close corollary to the engineer that wants to move into a product management role because they want to have greater oversight into the decisions that are being made about what's getting built. And what you come to realize, for any engineer who successfully made that transition, is it's really complicated and difficult to be able to have that mental switch take place between this is how I'm going to build it versus this is the priority of what needs to get built next. And all too often you see engineers that land in product management roles that are dictating how something should be built, and suddenly the engineers are just like, “No, I have no respect for you. Because that's not your job.”And likewise, in a management role, oftentimes people view that as an opportunity for them to make all the choices, make all the decisions, and suddenly lose sight of the fact that they used to be on the other side of that outcome themselves, and were disappointed when they weren't included in some way, shape or form, or their priorities weren't taken into consideration.Corey: As you look at your own career, what is the worst job experience you've ever had? Or the worst job you've ever had? Or the worst boss you've ever had? That's always a good one to do.Adam: [laugh].Corey: Pick a superlative and not the good kind. Hit me.Adam: Yeah, no, I mean, look, I think that probably the worst… experience that I ever had with a manager, with a boss, was actually when I was first a software developer. And my manager would occasionally just come up behind me and just stand and watch me code. And we're not talking about peer programming, where it was just like, we're working together. No, it was, literally would come up, stand behind me on my shoulder, and just stand there. Not saying anything; just watching me write Java code. And that was probably the most disconcerting experience that I've ever had in a job ever. I lasted about six months and then I was just like, “I need to move on to something else.”Corey: It turns out one of my failure modes was that I was great for the first three months in new ops roles because things were invariably a fire, and—Adam: [laugh].Corey: —I know how to solve those things. And then it becomes a maintenance role, and I'm bad at that. For longest time, I thought I was just a crap employee. And I am, but for different reasons. Instead, though, for me, it turned into a, I need to find the thing that I'm good at and embrace that. And I have to say, it was not being, basically, a cloud comedian on Twitter where my primary means of communication is shitposting. But you know, here we are, and this is how we've gotten there.Adam: I mean, know your strengths, man. Know your strengths.Corey: Yeah, lean into it. I mean, you went to college in Maine; you know what it's like there. It's dark and cold nine months out of the year, so all we do is sit inside and develop personality disorders. And well, here we are.Adam: Well, hey, I mean, I took a break from tech after that first job in software development and I actually went back and worked for a guy that I met while I was in school, and I worked for him, he was a general contractor. So, I have an appreciation for Maine winters in a way that I never gained as a privileged college student, when I was actually digging snow out of ditches to be able to pour concrete at six in the morning and then later in the day, I got to go up and use 80-pound weight shingles to reshingle the roof in 20-degree weather. So, it was an eye-opening experience. But I'll tell you, I learned pretty much everything that I know about how to build infrastructure from that eight months that I spent doing everything from framing, ditch-digging, to electrical, and plumbing, and roofing.Corey: Kind of fun how often is that we wind up trying other things. And this is part of it, too. As much fun as it is to complain about various jobs and whatnot that we have, let's be very clear here for a minute that I'm not dealing with hot tar, being paid seven bucks an hour. There are advantages to the [unintelligible 00:28:08] jobs I have.Adam: I mean, that was a number of years ago, but I still got ten bucks an hour.Corey: My first job at the University of Maine call center working in tech, in those days, I think I was being paid something like $5.35 an hour. To answer phones, which again, not that hard of a job. I made a lot more money a couple years later when I moved to construction. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend any of those things for me these days, but it was instructive.Adam: But at the same time, I would argue that you also have benefited from those experiences in the way that you approach the things that you do now. And I think that's one of the things that I've tried to bring forward in my career is look for those opportunities to make those connections, and understand the value of those experiences, and be able to help to enable other people because I've had those experiences.Corey: To me at least, the answer is to turn whatever you've done or whatever happened to you into some form of empathy. The idea of well, I had to struggle coming up, so you should, too. Let's instead focus on making it better for people who follow us. Send the elevator back down, as it were.Adam: I mean, I think that's great advice, and I think that it's something that's done far too infrequently. One of the things that I've noticed is that that aspect, unless somebody has actually been through the experience where somebody has done that for them, it is oftentimes something that is a lot harder for people to see. This goes to your earlier statement around the expectations that maybe are changing, and they're not such great ways with regards to what people are expecting from companies, what people are expecting from managers. I think that there is a distinct lack of expectation setting that takes place at companies in terms of what is the role of the company, what is the role of an employee, and how can those two come together to still have a positive interaction, but aren't overstepping on either side? Because that's really where you get into problems. That's where all of a sudden you have these companies that are looking to fill the role of, I will take care of all aspects of your life, when in reality that's not a very healthy relationship for an individual to have with a company.Corey: So, I want to thank you for coming and speak to me. What are you up to these days, and where can people find you? And why should people find you?Adam: Well, I don't know that anybody should find me.Corey: “I hope this email finds you never. I hope you're free.”Adam: Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, I would love to find folks that I can add value to and help out. It's easy enough to find me on Twitter. It's just @-A-Z-I-M-M-A-N—azimman. And they're welcome to reach out to me there. My DMs are open—much to my displeasure sometimes—but happy to help people who are looking for help. I'm particularly interested in spending my time with those individuals who maybe are coming from underrepresented backgrounds in tech and looking for ways to be able to either get into tech or to move up within leadership roles in tech.But I'm spending a lot of my time doing a lot of coaching, doing a lot of advising for small startups, and then also just as a small side project have been working pretty extensively with James Governor and a woman by the name of Kim Harrison on this little thing called Progressive Delivery, which is, as far as we're concerned, it is the next iteration of the software development lifecycle that we've written about and talked about pretty extensively. James and Kim and I are working on a book together to be able to capture all those ideas and bring them and coalesce them for people, to make more consumable. But ultimately, we're trying to say, “Hey, look. The way that we've done things leading up till now, moving from waterfall to agile to continuous delivery into what's next?” And look at some of the market conditions that have changed. A lot of stuff that you talk about. I think that you would be the first to point out how things have changed since the launch of AWS.Corey: Oh, yes. It's more confusing now.Adam: Oh, way more confusing. And the ways in which people consume cloud-based services has radically changed. And so I think that the way that we are building software and the way that we're consuming software is something that we need to put some serious thought into. And the players that are—you know, as I spoke about earlier on this talk with you—are different. It's no longer just your developers that care about your AWS choices or care about the cloud service choices that you're making.You've got other individuals, whether it's the finance side you focus on or thinking about it from the perspective of the marketing team, or the HR team that's thinking about which cloud service HRIS are they going to use. There's a lot of people that need to be party to those choices that you're making and how you build out your company stack, as it were. And the Progressive Delivery model looks to take into consideration that changing and evolving group of people.Corey: And we will, of course, have links to that in the [show notes 00:32:46]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Adam: Corey, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.Corey: Adam Zimman, startup advisor, and oh, so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a scathing comment telling me why you as an engineer are best suited to be the manager of everything.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

01:25 - Teaching, Learning, and Education 06:16 - Becoming a Data Scientist * Opportunities to Create New Knowledge * Data Science Science 19:36 - Solving Bias in Data Science * Weapons of Math Destruction (https://weaponsofmathdestructionbook.com/) 23:36 - Recommendations for Aspiring Data Scientists * Hire a Career Coach * Creating and Maintaining a Portfolio * Make a Rosetta Stone * Make a Cheat Sheet * Write an Article on a Piece of Software You Dislike * A Few Times, I've Broken Pandas (https://towardsdatascience.com/a-few-times-i-managed-to-broke-pandas-d3604d43708c?gi=7c2404551ab3) * Kyle Kingsbury Posts (https://aphyr.com/) * Contribute to Another Project * Post On Project Contribution (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-6800974518308478976-4YqK) * Spend $$$/Invest on Transition * Bet On Yourself 45:36 - Impostor Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) * Immunity Boosts * Community * Know Your Baseline * Clance Impostor Phenomenon Test (http://impostortest.nickol.as/) * Dr. Pauline Rose Clance (https://paulineroseclance.com/) * The Imposter Phenomenon: An Internal Barrier To Empowerment and Achievement by Pauline Rose Clance and Maureen Ann O'Toole (https://paulineroseclance.com/pdf/ip_internal_barrier_to_empwrmnt_and_achv.pdf) * Disseminate Knowledge * Confidence Leads to Confidence * Dunning-Kruger Effect (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dunning-kruger-effect) * Johari Window (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window) Reflections: Mae: Checking out the metrics resources on Impostor Syndrome listed above. Casey: Writing about software in a positive, constructive tone. Mando: Investing in yourself. from:sheaserrano bet on yourself (https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3Asheaserrano%20bet%20on%20yourself&src=typed_query&f=live) Adam: Talking about career, data science, and programming in a non-technical way. Also, Twitter searches for book names! This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDO: Good afternoon, everyone! Welcome to Greater Than Code. This is Episode number 241. I'm Mando Escamilla and I'm here with my friend, Mae Beale. MANDO: Hi, there! And I am also here with Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I am Casey! And we're all here with Adam Ross Nelson, our guest today. Welcome, Adam. ADAM: Hi, everyone! Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here. CASEY: Since 2020, Adam is a consultant who provides research, data science, machine learning, and data governance services. Previously, he was the inaugural data scientist at The Common Application which provides undergraduate college application platforms for institutions around the world. He holds a PhD from The University of Wisconsin: Madison in Educational Leadership & Policy Analysis. Adam is also formerly an attorney with a history of working in higher education, teaching all ages, and educational administration. He is passionate about connecting with other data professionals in-person and online. For more information and background look for his insights by connecting with Adam on LinkedIn, Medium, and other online platforms. We are lucky we have him here today. So Adam, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? ADAM: I spent so much time thinking about this question, I really wasn't sure what to say. I hadn't thought about my superpower in a serious way in a very long time and I was tempted to go whimsy with this, but I got input from my crowd and my tribe and where I landed was teaching, learning, and education. You might look at my background with a PhD in education, leadership, and policy analysis, all of my work in education administration, higher education administration, and teaching and just conclude that was how I acquired the superpower. But I think that superpower goes back much further and much deeper. So when I was a kid, I was badly dyslexic. Imagine going through life and you can't even tell the difference between a lowercase B and a lowercase D. Indistinguishable to me. Also, I had trouble with left and right. I didn't know if someone told me turn left here, I'd be lucky to go – I had a 50/50 chance of going in the right direction, basically. Lowercase P and Q were difficult. For this podcast, the greater than sign, I died in the math unit, or I could have died in the math unit when we were learning greater than, or less than. Well, and then another one was capital E and the number 3, couldn't tell a difference. Capital E and number 3. I slowly developed mnemonics in order to learn these things. So for me, the greater than, less than pneumonic is, I don't know if you ever think about it, but think of the greater than, or less than sign as an alligator and it's hungry. So it's always going to eat the bigger number. [laughs] It's always going to eat the bigger quantity. So once I figured that mnemonic out and a bunch of other mnemonics, I started doing a little bit better. My high school principal told my parents that I would be lucky to graduate high school and there's all kinds. We can unpack that for days, but. MANDO: Yeah. ADAM: Right? Like what kind of high school principal says that to anybody, which resonates with me now in hindsight, because everything we know about student learning, the two most influential factors on a student's ability to learn are two things. One, teacher effectiveness and number two, principal leadership. Scholarship always bears out. MAE: Whoa. ADAM: Yeah. So the principal told my family that and also, my household growing up, I was an only child. We were a very poor household; low income was an understatement. So my disadvantages aside, learning and teaching myself was basically all I had. I was the kid who grew up in this neighborhood, I had some friends in the neighborhood, and I was always exploring adjacent areas of the neighborhoods. I was in a semi-rural area. So there were wooded areas, there were some streams, some rivers, some lakes and I was always the kid that found something new. I found a new trail, a new street, a new whatever and I would run back to my neighborhood and I'd be like, “Hey everybody, I just found something. Look what I found, follow me and I will show you also. I will show you the way and I'll show you how cool that is.” MAE: Aw. ADAM: I love this thinking. [laughs] MAE: I love that! CASEY: Sharing. ADAM: I'm glad because when I'm in the classroom, when I'm teaching – I do a lot of corporate training now, too. When I'm either teaching in a traditional university classroom, or in corporate setting, that is me reliving my childhood playtime. It's like, “Hey everybody, look at this cool thing that I have to show you and now I'm going to show it to you, also.” So teaching, learning, and education is my superpower and in one way, that's manifested. When I finished school, I finished my PhD at 37. I wasn't 40 years old yet, if you count kindergarten had been in school for 23 years. Over half of my life, not half of my adult life, half of my entire life I was in school [chuckles] and now that I'm rounding 41—that was last week, I turned 41. Now that I'm rounding 41 – MAE: Happy birthday! ADAM: Thank you so much. Now that I'm rounding 41, I'm finally a little more than half of my life not in school. MANDO: Congrats, man. That's an accomplishment. [laughs] So I'm curious to know how you transitioned from that academic world into being a data scientist proper, like what got you to that point? What sets you down that path? Just that whole story. I think that'd be super interesting to talk about and dig into. ADAM: Sure. I think context really matters; what was going on in the data science field at the time I finished the PhD. I finished that PhD in 2017. So in 2017, that was that the apex of – well, I don't know if it was, or maybe we're now at the apex. I don't know exactly where the apex was, or is, or will be, but there was a lot of excitement around data science as a field and as a career in about 3, or 4 years ago. MANDO: For sure. ADAM: So when I was finishing the PhD, I had the opportunity to tech up in my PhD program and gain a lot of the skills that others might have gained via other paths through more traditional computer science degrees, economics degrees, or bootcamps, or both. And then I was also in a position where I was probably—and this is common for folks with a PhD—probably one of the handful of people in the world who were a subject matter expert in a particular topic, but also, I had the technical skills to be a data scientist. So there was an organization, The Common Application from the introduction, that was looking for a data scientist who needed domain knowledge in the area that I had my PhD and that's what a PhD does for you is it gives you this really intense level of knowledge in a really small area [chuckles] and then the technical skills. That's how I transitioned into being a data scientist. I think in general, that is the template for many folks who have become a data scientist. Especially if you go back 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 years ago, before formal data science training programs started popping up and even before, and then I think some of the earliest bootcamps for data science were about 10 years ago. At least the most widely popular ones were about 10 years ago to be clear. And then there's another view that that's just when we started calling it data science because the skills for – all of the technologies and analytical techniques we're using, not all of them, many of them have been around for decades. So that's important to keep in mind. So I think to answer your question, I was in the right place at the right time, there was a little bit of luck involved, and I always try and hold myself from fully giving all the credit away to luck because that's something. Well, maybe we'll talk about it later when it comes to imposter syndrome, that's one of the symptoms, so to speak, of imposter syndrome is giving credit for your success away to luck while you credit the success of others to skill, or ability. But let me talk about that template. So the template is many data scientists become a data scientists with this three-step process. One, you establish yourself as an expert in your current role and by establishing yourself as an expert, you're the top expert, or one of very, very few people who are very, very skilled in that area. Then you start tackling business problems with statistics, machine learning, and artificial intelligence. You might not be called a data scientist yet, but by this point, you're already operating as a data scientist and then eventually, you be the data scientist, you become the data scientist. If it is a career path for you, you'll potentially change roles into a role that's formerly called, specifically called data science. But one of the articles I wrote recently on Medium talks about the seven paths to data scientist and one of the paths talks about a fellow who really doesn't consider himself a data scientist, but he is a data scientist, been a data scientist for years, but he's really happy with this organization and his role as it's titled as an engineer and he's great. He's good to go. So maybe we'll talk about it a little bit later, too. I think as we were chatting and planning, someone asked about pedigree a little bit and one of the points I like to make is there's no right, or wrong way to do it. There's no right, or wrong way to get there just once you get there, have fun with it. MAE: I love what you said, Adam, about the steps and they're very similar to what I would advise to any traditional coder and have advised is take all of your prior work experience before you become a programmer. It is absolutely relevant and some of the best ways to have a meaningful impact and mitigate one's own imposter syndrome is to get a job where you are programming and you already have some of that domain knowledge and expertise to be able to lend. So you don't have to have been one of the rarefied few, but just having any familiarity with the discipline, or domain of the business you end up getting hired at, or applying to certainly is a way to get in the door a little easier and feel more comfortable once you're there, that you can contribute in lots of ways. ADAM: And it gives you the ability to provide value that other folks who are on a different path, who are going into data science earlier—this is a great path, too don't let me discount that path—but those folks don't have the deep domain knowledge that someone who transitions into data science later in their career provides. MAE: Exactly. Yeah, and the amazing teams have people with all the different versions, right? ADAM: Right. MAE: Like we don't want a team with only one. Yeah. ADAM: That's another thing I like to say about data science is it's a team sport. It has to be a teams – it has to be done in tandem with others. CASEY: I just had a realization that everyone I know in data science, they tend to come from science backgrounds, or maybe a data science bootcamp. But I don't know anyone who moved from web development into data science and that's just so surprising to me. I wonder why. MAE: I crossed the border a little bit, I would say, I worked in the Center for Data Science at RTI in North Carolina and I did do some of the data science there as well as just web programming, but my undergrad is biochem. So I don't break your role. [laughs] MANDO: [chuckles] Yeah. I'm trying to think. I don't think I know any either. At the very least, they all come from a hard science, or mathematics background, which is interesting to me because that's definitely not my experience with web application developers, or just developers in general. There's plenty that come from comp side background, or an MIS background, or something like that, but there's also plenty who come from non-traditional backgrounds as well. Not just bootcamps, but just like, they were a history major and then picked up programming, or whatever and it doesn't seem to be as common, I think in data science. Not to say that you couldn't, but just for my own, or maybe our own experience, it's not quite as common. ADAM: If there's anybody listening with the background that we're talking about, the other backgrounds, I would say, reach out probably to any of us and we'd love to workshop that with you. MAE: Yes! Thank you for saying that. Absolutely. MANDO: Yeah, the more stories we can amplify the better. We know y'all are out there; [chuckles] we just don't know you and we should. MAE: Adam, can you tell us some descriptor that is a hobnobbing thing that we would be able to say to a data scientist? Maybe you can tell us what P values are, or just some little talking point. Do you have any favorite go-tos? ADAM: Well, I suppose if you're looking for dinner party casual conversation and you're looking for some back pocket question, you could ask a data scientist and you're not a data scientist. I would maybe ask a question like this, or a question that I could respond to easily as a data scientist might be something like, “Well, what types of predictions are you looking to make?” and then the data scientists could respond with, “Oh, it's such an interesting question. I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that before!” But the response might be something like, “Well, I'm trying to predict a classification. I'm trying to predict categories,” or “I'm trying to predict income,” or “I'm trying to predict whatever it is that –” I think that would be an interesting way to go. What's another one? CASEY: Oh, I've got one for anyone you know in neuroscience. ADAM: Oh, yeah. MAE: Yay! CASEY: I was just reading a paper and there's this statistics approach I'm sure I did in undergrad stats, but I forgot it. Two-way ANOVA, analysis of variance, and actually, I don't think I know anyone in my lab that could explain it offhand real quickly really well because we just learn it enough to understand what it is and why we use it and then we have the computer do it. But it's an interesting word saying it and having someone say, “Yes, I know what that means enough. It's a science, or neuroscience.” ADAM: I would be interested in how neuroscience is used two-way ANOVA because I'm not a neuroscientist and two-way ANOVA is so useful in so many other contexts. CASEY: I'm afraid I can't help today. Maybe 10 years ago, I could have done that. [laughter] CASEY: It's just something that you don't work with and talk about a lot. It's definitely fallen out of my headspace. I looked up the other day, I couldn't remember another word from my neuroscience background. Cannula is when you have a permanent needle into a part of the brain, or maybe someone's vein, same thing. I used to do surgeries on rats and put cannulas and I was like, “What's that thing? What was that thing I did?” I have no idea! It's just like time passes and it fades away. I don't do that anymore. [chuckles] ADAM: So sometimes folks will ask me why I'm a data scientist and I love that question by the way, because I'm a major proponent of knowing what your why is in general, or just having a why and knowing a why, knowing what your why is. Why do you do what you do? What makes you excited about your career, about your work, about your clients, about your coworkers? One of the main reasons I am a data scientist is because it's an opportunity to create new knowledge and that's the scientific process, really. That's the main output of science is new knowledge and if you think about that, that's really powerful. This is now at the end of this scientific process, if you implement it correctly, we now know something about how the world works, about how people in the world work, or something about the world in general that we didn't know before. I get goosebumps. We're on podcast so you can't see the goosebumps that I'm getting. But when I talk about this, I actually get goosebumps. So for me, being a data scientist and then there's also the debate is data science, science and I say, absolutely yes, especially when you are implementing your work with this spirit' the spirit of creating new knowledge. One of the reasons I am very adamant about keeping this why in the forefront of my mind and proposing it as a why for others who maybe haven't found their why yet is because it's also a really powerful guardrail that prevents us from working on problems that we already have answers to, that have been analyzed and solved, or questions asked and asked and answered. I'm a major proponent of avoiding that type of work, unless you have a really good reason to replicate, or test replication, or you're looking for replication. That would be an exception, but in general, questions—analytical questions, research questions, and data science problems—that lead to new knowledge are the ones that excite me the most. And then this goes back to what I was talking about a moment ago, my superpower teaching and learning. One of the reasons I really enjoy teaching data science in the classroom, or statistics in the classroom, or at corporate training is because then I can empower others to create new knowledge. That feels really good to me when I can help others create new knowledge, or give others the skills and abilities to do that as well. MAE: I love that. Yeah. I do have one angle on that, but I hope this doesn't feel like putting you on the spot, but especially in the not revisiting a established—I'm going to do air quotes—facts and from undergrad, the scientific definition of fact has not yet been proven false. But anyways, there is a growing awareness of bias inherent in data and we so often think of data as the epitome of objectivity. Because it's a bunch of numbers then therefore, we are not replicating, or imposing our thoughts, but there is the Schrodinger's cat, or whatever in place all the time about how those “facts” were established in the first place, where that data was called from? Like, the Portlandia episode where they ask where the chicken is from and they end up back at the farm. [laughter] The data itself, there's just a lot in there. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that accordion. ADAM: There's a lot. That's a big question. I will say one of the things that keeps me up at night is this problem, especially when it comes to the potential for our work in data science, to perpetuate, exacerbate social inequity, social inequality, racial inequality, gender inequality, economic inequality. This keeps me up at night and I am, like most, or like everyone – well, no, I don't know if everybody is interested in solving that problem. I think a lot of data scientists are, I think a lot of researchers are; I think many are interested in solving that particular problem and I count myself among those. But I would be ahead of myself if I purported to say that I had a solution. I think in this format and in this context, one of the best things to do is to point folks towards others who have spent even more time really focusing on this and I think the go-to is Weapons of Math Destruction. Weapons of Math Destruction is a book. If you're on a bad connection, that's M-A-T-H. Weapons of Math Destruction and especially if you're just getting started on this concern, that's a good place to get started. MAE: Thank you. Thanks for speaking to that, Adam. CASEY: There's a piece of the question you asked me that I always think about is the data true and I like to believe most data is true in what it measured, but it's not measuring truth with a T-H. ADAM: That's true. MAE: Whoa. ADAM: I think you could spend a lot of time thinking this through and noodling through this, but I would caution you on something you said it's true as to what you measured. Well, you have measurement error. We have entire – actually, I happen to have social statistics handbook handy. In any statistics handbook, or statistics textbook is going to have either an entire chapter, or a major portion of one of the introductory chapters on error, the types of error, and measurement error is one of them, perception error, all of the – and I'm on the spot to name all the errors. I wish I could rattle those off a little bit better. [chuckles] ADAM: But if you're interested, this is an interesting topic, just Google data errors, or error types, or statistical errors and you will get a rabbit hole that will keep you occupied for a while. MAE: Love it. I will be in that rabbit hole later. [laughs] ADAM: Yeah. I'm going to go back down that one, too myself. MANDO: So Adam, we have people who are listening right now who are interested in following one of your paths, or one of the paths to becoming a data scientist and maybe they have domain expertise in a particular area, maybe they don't. Maybe they're just starting out. Maybe they're coming from a bootcamp, or maybe they're from a non-traditional background and they're trying to switch careers. If you were sitting there talking to them one-on-one, what are some things that you would tell them, or what are some starting points for them? Like, where do you begin? ADAM: Well, one, admittedly self-serving item I would mention is consider the option of hiring a career coach and that's one of the things that I do in my line of consulting work is I help folks who are towards the middle, or latter part of their career, and they're looking to enter into, or level up in data science. So a career coach can – and I've hired career coaches over the years. Back to, Mando, one of the questions you asked me earlier is how did you end up in data science? Well, part of that story, which I didn't talk to then is, well, I went into data science route when the faculty route didn't open up for me and I'm a huge fan. I had two career coaches helping me out with both, faculty and non-faculty work for a while. So having been the recipient and the beneficiary of some great career coaching, I have also recently become a career coach as well. Probably something more practical, though. Let me give some practical advice. A portfolio, a professional portfolio for a data scientist is probably one of the most essential and beneficial things you can do for yourself in terms of making that transition successfully and then also, maintaining a career. If you're interested in advancing your career in this way, maintaining a career trajectory that keeps you going so having and maintaining a portfolio. I'll go through four tips on portfolio that I give folks and these tips are specifically tips that can help you generate content for your portfolio, because I know one of the hardest things to do with the portfolio is, well, let me just do some fictional hypothetical project for my portfolio, so hard to do and also, can end up being sort of dry, stale, and it might not really connect with folks. These are four ways you can add to, or enhance your portfolio. I wouldn't call them entire projects; maybe they're mini projects and they're great additions to your portfolio. The first one is: make a Rosetta Stone. This one is for folks who have learned one computer programming language, and now it's time for them to learn another computer programming language, or maybe they already know two computer programming languages. In fact, the Rosetta Stone idea for your portfolio doubles as a way to build on and expand your skills. So here's what a Rosetta Stone is. You have a project; you've done it from start to finish. Let's say, you've done a project from start to finish in Python. Now port that entire project over to R and then in a portfolio platform—I usually recommend GitHub—commit that work as git commits as a Rosetta Stone side-by-side examples of Python and R code that produce the same results and the same output. I love this piece of advice because in doing this, you will learn so much about the language that you originally wrote the program in and you will learn a lot about the target language. You're going to learn about both languages and you're going to have a tangible artifact for your portfolio and you might even learn more about that project. You might encounter some new output in the new language, which is more accessible for that language, that you didn't encounter in the old language and now you're going to have a new insight about whatever your research project was. The next piece of advice I have is make a cheat sheet and there's tongue in cheek opinion about cheat sheets. I think sometimes folks don't like to call them cheat sheets because the word cheat has negative connotations, but whatever you're going to call it, if it's a quick reference, or if it's a cheat sheet, a well-designed cheat sheet on any tool, platform, tool platform, language that you can think of is going to be a really nice addition to your portfolio. I recommend folks, what you do is you just find the things that you do the most frequently and you're constantly referencing at whatever website, make a cheat sheet for yourself, use it for a while, and then polish it up into a really nice presentable format. So for example, I have a cheat sheet on interpreting regression. I also have a cheat sheet that is a crosswalk from Stata, which is a statistical programming language, to Python. So actually there, I've put the two of them together. I've made this cheat sheet, which is also a Rosetta Stone. If you're looking for those, you can find those on my GitHub, or my LinkedIn, I have cheat sheets on my LinkedIn profile as well and you can see examples. I do have on YouTube, a step-by-step instructional video on how to make a cheat sheet and they're actually really easy to do. So if you even if you consider yourself not graphically inclined, if you pick the right tools—and the tools that you would pick might not be your first choice just because they're not marketed that way—you can put together a really nice cheat sheet relatively easily. The third tip is to write an article… about a piece of software that you dislike. So write an article about a piece of software that you dislike and this has to be done with, especially in the open source community, do this one carefully, possibly even contact the creators, and also, be sure not to blame anybody, or pass judgment. Just talk about how and why this particular project doesn't quite live up to your full aspiration, or your full expectation. I've done this a couple of times in a variety of ways. I didn't in the title specifically say, “I don't like this,” or “I don't like that,” but in at least one case, one of the articles I wrote, I was able to later submit as a cross-reference, or an additional reference on an issue in GitHub and this was specifically for Pandas. So there was a feature in Pandas that wasn't working the way I wanted it to work. [chuckles] MAE: Pandas. ADAM: Yeah, Pandas is great, right? So there's a feature in Pandas that wasn't working in quite the way that I wanted it to. I wrote an article about it. Actually, I framed the article, the article title is, “How I broke Pandas.” Actually, several versions of Pandas back, the issue was it was relatively easy to generate a Pandas data frame with duplicate column names. Having duplicate column names in a Pandas data frame obviously can cause problems in your code later because you basically have multiple keys for different columns. Now, there's a setting in Pandas that will guard against this and it's an optional setting—you have to toggle it on and off. This article, I like to say, helped improve Pandas. So write an article about software you dislike and also, like I said, be diplomatic and in this case, I was diplomatic by framing the article title by saying, “A few times, I managed to break Pandas,” and then – MANDO: This reminds me a lot of Kyle Kingsbury and his Jepsen tests that he used to do. He was aphyr on Twitter. He's not there anymore, but he would run all these tests against distributed databases and distributed locking systems and stuff like that and then write up these large-scale technical explanations of what broke and what didn't. They're super fascinating to read and the way that he approached them, Adam, it's a lot like you're saying, he pushed it with a lot of grace and what I think is super important, especially when you're talking about open source stuff, because this is what people, they're pouring their heart and soul and lives into. You don't have to be ugly about it. ADAM: Oh, absolutely. MANDO: [chuckles] And then he ended up like, this is what he does now. He wrote this framework to do analysis of distributed systems and now companies hire him and that's his job now. I'm a big fan of the guy and I miss him being on Twitter and interacting with him and his technical expertise and also, just his own personality. Sorry, your topic, or your little cheat there reminded me of that. We'll put some links—thanks, Casey—and in the show notes about his posts so if people haven't come across this stuff yet, it's a fascinating read. It's super helpful even to this day. ADAM: I'm thankful for the connection because now I have another example, when I talk to people about this, and it's incredible that you say built an entire career out of this. I had no idea that particular tip was so powerful. MAE: So cool. MANDO: [chuckles] So I think you said you have one more, Adam? ADAM: The fourth one is: contribute to another project. One of the best examples of this is I wrote an article on how to enhance your portfolio and someone really took this fourth one to a whole new level. I'm sure others have as well, but one person—we'll get links in, I can get some links in the show notes—what he did was he found a package in R that brings data for basically sample datasets for our programmers and citizens working and data scientists working with R. But he was a Python person. So he suggested, “Hey, what about making this?” I remember he contacted me and he said, “I read your article about adding to my portfolio. I really think it might make sense to port this project over to Python,” and so, he was combining two of them. He was making a Rosetta Stone and he was contributing someone else's project. Now this data is available both in R and in Python and the author of this project has posted about it. He posted about it in May, early May, and it's constantly still a month and a half later getting comments, likes, and links. So he's really gotten some mileage out of this particular piece, this addition to his portfolio and the original author of the original software also has acknowledged it and it's really a success. It's really a success. So contribute to another project is my fourth tip. Oh, one more idea on contributing to another project. Oh, I have an article on that lists several projects that are accepting contributions from intermediate and beginners. The point there is identify specific projects that are accepting beginner and immediate submissions on contributions, mostly via GitHub. But if you go to GitHub and if you're newer to GitHub, you can actually go to a project that you like, go to its Issues tab, and then most projects have tags associated with their issues that are identified as beginner friendly. That is an excellent place to go in order to get started on contributing to another project, which makes the world a better place because you're contributing to open source and you have an addition to your portfolio. MANDO: Oh, these are fantastic tips. Thank you, Adam. ADAM: I'm glad you like them. Can I give another one? Another big tip? This one's less portfolio, more – MANDO: Yeah, lay it on us. MAE: Do! By all means. ADAM: And I'd be interested, Mae, since you also made a similar career transition to me. I made an investment. I think I know what you might say on this one, but I spent money. I spent money on the transition. I hired consultants on Fiverr and Upwork to help me upgrade my social media presence. I hired the career coaches that I mentioned. Oh, actually the PhD program, that was not free. So I spent money on my transition and I would point that out to folks who are interested in making this transition, it's not a transition that is effortless and it's also not a transition that you can do, I think it's not one that you can do without also investing money. MAE: Yeah. [chuckles] Okay, I'm going to tell you my real answer on this. ADAM: Okay. MAE: Or corollary. I had a pretty good gig at a state institution with a retirement, all of these things, and I up and left and went to code school. I had recently paid off a lot of debt, so I didn't have a lot of savings. I had no savings, let's just say that and the code school had offered this like loan program that fell through. So I'm in code school and they no longer are offering the ability to have this special code school loan. I put code school on my credit card and then while in code school, my 10-year-old car died and I had to get a new car. ADAM: Ah. MAE: In that moment, I was struggling to get some fundamental object-oriented programming concepts that I'm like, “Holy cow, I've got a mortgage. I no longer have a car.” Now I'm in a real bind here, but I be leaving myself. I know I made these choices after a lot of considered thought and consultation. I, too had hired a career coach and I was like, “I've already made this call. I'm going to make the best of it. I'm just going to do what I can and see what happens.” I really have a test of faith on that original call to make those investments. I would not recommend doing it the way I did to anyone! [laughter] MAE: And I went from a pretty well-established career and salary into – a lot of people when they go into tech, it's a huge jump and I had the opposite experience. That investment continued to be required of me for several years. Even still, I choose to do things related to nonprofits and all kinds of things, but it takes a lot of faith and commitment and money often, in some form, can be helpful. There are a lot of, on the programming side, code schools that offer for you to pay a percentage once you get a salary, or other offsetting arrangements. So if somebody is listening, who is considering programming, I have not seen those analogs in data science, but on the programming side, especially if you're from a group underrepresented in tech, there's a number of different things that are possible to pursue still. ADAM: Here we are talking about some of the lesser acknowledged aspects of this transition. MAE: Yeah. ADAM: Some of the harder to acknowledge. MAE: Yeah. MANDO: Yeah, I really liked what you said, Mae about the need to believe in yourself and Adam, I think what you're saying is you have to be willing to bet on yourself. ADAM: Yes. MAE: Yeah. MANDO: You have to be willing to bet on yourself and sometimes, in some forms, that's going to mean writing a check, or [chuckles] in Mae's example, putting it on your credit card, but. [laughter] Sometimes that's what it means and that's super scary. I'm not a 100% convinced that I have enough faith in my ability to run the dishwasher some days, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that today, or not. This is going to be really silly and stupid, but one of my favorite cartoons is called Avatar: The Last Airbender. MAE: Yes! MANDO: It's a series on Cartoon Network, I think. No, Nickelodeon, I watched it with my kids when they were super little and it's still a thing that we rewatch right now, now that they're older. There's this one episode where this grandfatherly wizened uncle is confronted [chuckles] by someone who's trying to mug him [chuckles] and the uncle is this super hardcore general guy. He critics his mugging abilities and he corrects him and says, “If you stand up straight and you change this about the way that you approach it, you'll be much more intimidating and probably a more successful mugger,” and he's like, “But it doesn't seem that your heart is into the mugging.” [chuckles] So he makes this guy a cup of tea and they talk about it and the guy's like, “I don't know what I'm doing. I'm lost. I'm all over the place. All I want to do is become a masseuse, but I just can't get my stuff together.” Something that the uncle said that really, really struck with me was he said, “While it's important and best for us to believe in ourselves, sometimes it can be a big blessing when someone else believes in you.” MAE: So beautiful. MANDO: “And sometimes, you need that and so, I get it. You can't always bet on yourself, or maybe you can bet on yourself, but sometimes you don't have that backup to actually follow through with it.” That's why community is so important. That's why having a group of people. Even if it's one person. Someone who can be like that backstop to be, “You don't believe in yourself today. Don't worry about it. I believe in you. It's okay. You can do it. You're going to do it.” ADAM: Community is just massive. Absolutely massive. MANDO: Yeah. ADAM: Having a good, strong community is so important. Also, I think I could add to what you're saying is about betting on yourself. I don't know if I love the analogy because it's not a casino bet. MANDO: Right. ADAM: The odds are not in favor of the house here. If you have done the right consultation, spoken with friends and family, leveraged your community, and done an honest, objective, accurate assessment of your skills, abilities, and your ambition and your abilities, et cetera. It's a bet. It's a wager, but it's a calculated risk. MAE: Yes! That is how I have described it also. Yes, totally. I loved that story from Airbender and it ties in a few of our topics. One is one of the things Adam said originally, which is being deeply in touch with your why really helps. It also ties in the whole teaching thing and often, that is one of the primary roles is to offer faith and commitment to your pursuits. If I had had different code school teachers, the stress of my entire livelihood being dependent on my understanding these concepts in week two of bootcamp that I was struggling with, and I had made a calculated bet and I thought I was going to be awesome, but I was not. It was like the classic Peanuts teacher is talking, “Wah wah woh wah wah.” I had to lean into my teachers, my school, my peers, believe in me. I believed in me before, even if I don't in this moment and I just have to let that stress move to the side so that I can reengage. That was really the only way I was able to do it was having a similar – well, I didn't try to mug anybody, [laughs] but I had some backup that really helped me make that through. MANDO: Yeah, and those credit card folks call like, it's tricky. MAE: Yeah, and then I had to buy a car and those people were calling me and they just did an employment verification. They said, “You don't have a job!” I was like, “Oh my god. Well, you [inaudible] get my car back, but I have really good credit. How about you talk to your boss and call me back?” So anyway, these things all tie into, if we have time to talk about something, I was hoping we would cover is this thing about imposter syndrome and believing in oneself, but also not believing in oneself simultaneously and how to navigate that. I don't know, Adam, if you have particular advice, or thoughts on that. ADAM: I do have some advice and thoughts on that. Actually, just yesterday, I hosted a live webinar on this particular topic with another career coach named Sammy and she and I are very passionate about helping folks. When we work with clients, we work with folks intentionally to evaluate whether imposter syndrome might be part of the equation. Actually, in this webinar, we talked about three immunity boosts, or three ways to boost your immunity against imposter syndrome and in one way, or another, I think we've touched on all three with the exception of maybe one of them. So if you're interested in that topic reached out to me as well. I have a replay available of that particular webinar and I could make the replay available on a one-on-one basis to folks as well, who really want to see that material, and the section – MANDO: [inaudible] that. ADAM: Yeah, please reach out and LinkedIn. Easiest way to reach me is LinkedIn, or Twitter. Twitter actually works really well, too these days. MANDO: We'll put both of those in the show notes for folks. ADAM: Okay. Yeah, thank you so much. I look forward to potentially sharing that with folks who reach out. The community was the second immunity boost that we shared and actually, Mando and Mae, both just got done talking extensively about community. And then the first immunity boost we shared was know your baseline. We called it “know your baseline” and I know from our planning that we would put in this program notes, a link to an online assessment that's named after the original scientist, or one of the two original scientists who really began documenting imposter syndrome back in the 70s and then they called it imposter phenomenon. Oh, the history of this topic is just fascinating. Women scientists, North Carolina, first documented this and one of the two scientists is named Pauline Clance. So the Clance Imposter Phenomenon Scale, that'll be in the show notes. You can take the Imposter Phenomenon Scale and then objectively evaluate based on this is imposter syndrome a part of your experience, if it is what is the extent of that, and just knowing your baseline can be a really good way, I think to protect you from the effects of the experience. It's also, I think important to point out that imposter syndrome isn't regarded as a medical, or a clinical diagnosis. This is usually defined as a collection of thoughts and actions associated with career, or other academic pursuits. And then the third immunity boost is disseminate knowledge and I love the disseminate knowledge as an immune booster because what it does is it flips the script. A lot of times folks with imposter syndrome, we say to ourselves, “Gee, if I could get one more degree, I could probably then do this,” or “If I got one more certification,” or “I can apply for this job next year, I could apply for that permission next year because I will have completed whatever certification program,” or “If I read one more –” MANDO: One more year of experience, right? ADAM: Yeah. One more year of experience, or one more book, or one more class on Udemy. Especially for mid and late career professionals and we talked about this earlier, Mae the bank of experience and domain knowledge that mid and late career professionals bring, I promise nobody else has had your experience. Everybody has a unique experience and everybody has something to offer that is new and unique, and that is valuable to others. So I say, instead of signing up for the seminar, host the seminar, teach the seminar. [laughter] ADAM: Right? Again, there's nothing wrong with certifications. There's nothing wrong with Udemy classes, I have Udemy classes that you could should go take. There's nothing wrong with those, but in measure, in measure and then also, never, never, never, never forget that you already have skills and abilities that is probably worth sharing with the rest of the world. So I recommend doing that as a boost, as an immunity boost, against imposter syndrome. MANDO: Yes, yes, and yes! [chuckles] CASEY: Now, I took the Clance Imposter Phenomenon Scale test myself and I scored really well. It was super, super low for me. I'm an overconfident person at this point, but when I was a kid, I wasn't. [laughter] I was super shy. I would not talk to people. I'd read a book in a corner. I was so introverted and it changed over time, I think by thinking about how confidence leads to confidence. MANDO: Yes. CASEY: The more confident you are, the more confident you act, you can be at the world and the more reason you have to be competent over time and that snowballed for me, thank goodness. It could happen for other people, too gradually, slowly over time the more you do confidence, the more you'll feel it and be it naturally. MAE: Yes! MANDO: I think it works the other direction, too and you have to be real careful about that. Like Adam, you were talking about flipping the script. If you have a negative talk script of just one more, just this one thing, I'm not good enough yet and I'm not you know. That can reinforce itself as well and you just never end up getting where you should be, or deserve to be, you know what I mean? It's something that I struggle with. I've been doing this for a really, really long time and I still struggle with this stuff, it's not easy. It's not easy to get past sometimes and some days are better than others and Casey, like you said, it has gotten better over time, but sometimes, you need those daily affirmations in the morning in the mirror [laughs] to get going, whatever works for you. But that idea, I love that idea, Casey of confidence bringing more confidence and reinforcing itself. MAE: And being mindful of Dunning-Kruger and careful of the inaccuracy of self-assessment. I like a lot of these ways in which making sure you're doing both, I think all the time as much as possible. Seeing the ways in which you are discounting yourself and seeing the ways in which you might be over crediting. ADAM: Right. Like with a lot of good science, you want to take as many measurements as possible. MAE: Yeah. ADAM: And then the majority vote of those measurements points to some sort of consensus. So the IP scale is one tool you can use and I think to your point, Mae it'd be a mistake to rely on it exclusively. You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, but there's also the Johari window. MAE: Oh, I don't know. What's that? ADAM: Oh, the Johari window is great. So there's four quadrants and the upper left quadrant of the Johari window are things that you know about yourself and things that other people know about yourself. And then you also have a quadrant where things that you know about yourself, but nobody else knows. And then there's a quadrant where other people know things about you that you don't know. And then there's the complete blind spot where there are things about you that you don't know that other people don't know. And then of course, you have this interesting conversation with yourself. So that quadrant that I don't know about it and nobody else knows about it, does it really exist? Does the tree falling in the woods make a sound when nobody's there to hear it? You can have a lot of fun with Johari window as well and I think it also definitely connects with what you were just saying a moment ago about accuracy of self-assessments, then it gets back to the measurement that we were talking about earlier, the measurement errors. So there's perceptual error, measurement error—shucks, I had it, here it is—sampling error, randomization, error, all kinds of error. I managed to pull that book out and then get some of those in front of me. [laughter] CASEY: There are some nice nicknames for a couple of the windows, Johari windows. The blind spot is one of those four quadrants and façade, I like to think about is another one. It's when you put on the front; people don't know something about you because you are façading it. MAE: Hmm. MANDO: So now we'll go ahead and transition into our reflection section. This is the part where our esteemed panelists and dear friends reflect on the episode and what they learned, what stuck with them, and we also get reflection from our guest, Adam as well, but Adam, you get to go last. ADAM: Sounds good. MANDO: You can gauge from the rest of us. Who would like to go first? MAE: I can! I did not know that there was an evaluative measure about imposter phenomenon, or any of that history shared and I'm definitely going to check that out. I talk with and have talked and will talk with a lot of people about that topic, but just having some sort of metric available for some self-assessment, I think is amazing. So that is a really fun, new thing that I am taking away among many, many other fun things. How about you, Casey? CASEY: I like writing about software you dislike in a positive, constructive tone. That's something I look for when I'm interviewing people, too. I want to know when they get, get feedback, when they give feedback, will it be thoughtful, unkind, and deep and respectful of past decisions and all that. If you've already done that in an article in your portfolio somewhere, that's awesome. That's pretty powerful. MANDO: Oh, how fantastic is that? Yeah, I love that! CASEY: I don't think I've ever written an article like that. Maybe on a GitHub issue, or a pull request that's longer than it feels like it should be. [laughter] Maybe an article would be nice, next time I hit that. MANDO: Oh, I love that. That's great. I guess I'll go next. The thing that really resonated with me, Adam was when you were talking about investing in yourself and being willing to write that check, if that's what it means, or swipe that credit card, Mae, or whatever. I'm sorry, I keep picking on you about that. MAE: It's fine. [laughs] It's pretty wild! MANDO: I love it. I love it, and it reminded me, I think I've talked about it before, but one of my favorite writers, definitely my favorite sports writer, is this guy named Shea Serrano. He used to write for Grantland and he writes for The Ringer and he's a novelist, too and his catchphrase—this is why I said it earlier in the episode—is “bet on yourself.” Sometimes when I'm feeling maybe a little imposter syndrome-y, or a little like, “I don't know what I'm going to do,” I click on the Twitter search and I type “from:sheaserrano bet on yourself” and hit enter and I just see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tweets of this guy that's just like, “Bet on yourself today.” “Bet on yourself” “Bet on yourself today, no one else is going to do it.” “No one's coming to save you, bet on yourself,” stuff like that and thank you, Adam for that reminder today. I needed that. ADAM: You're welcome. I'm so happy that you've got that takeaway. Thank you so much for sharing the takeaway. I have, I think two reflections. One, what a breath of fresh air, the opportunity to talk about life, career, but career in data science, and programming in a non-technical way. I think the majority of our conversation was non-technical. [laughter] We briefly went into some technicalities when we talked about how you can sometimes have duplicate heading names in a Pandas data frame. That was a little bit technical. Otherwise, we really just spoke about the humanistic aspects of this world. So thank you so much for that and I got a research tip! Mando, what a brilliant idea. If you're ever looking for more background on a book, do a Twitter search for the book name and then anybody who's been speaking about that book – MANDO: Oh, yes! ADAM: Yeah, right? You could extend that to a research tip. [overtalk] MANDO: That's fantastic! Absolutely. Yeah. ADAM: So today, I learned a new way to get additional background on any book. I'm just going to go to Twitter, Google, or not Google that, search the book title name, and I'm going to see what other people are saying about that book. And then I can check out their bios. I can see what else they're sharing. They might have insights that I might not have had and now I can benefit from that. Thank you. Thank you so much for the research tip. MANDO: Yeah, and I think it dovetails really well into what you were talking about earlier, Adam, about publishing data. Like building out this portfolio, writing your articles, getting it out there because someone's going to go to Google, or Twitter and type into the search bar a Pandas data frame, column, same name, you know what I mean and now they're going to hit “A few times, I managed to break Pandas,” your article. But it could be about anything. It could be about that stupid Docker thing that you fought with yesterday, or about the 8 hours I spent on Monday trying to make an HTTP post with no body and it just hung forever and I couldn't. 8 hours, it took me to figure out why it wasn't working and it's because I didn't have one line in and I didn't call request that set body. I just didn't do it. I've done this probably more than a million times in my career and I didn't do it and it cost me 8 hours of my life that I'm never getting back, but it happens. That's part of the job is that – [overtalk] MAE: Yeah, sure. MANDO: And you cry about it and you eat some gummy worms and then you pick yourself back up and you're good to go. ADAM: Yeah, another common one that people are constantly writing about is reordering the columns in a Pandas data frame. There's like a hundred ways to do it and none of them are efficient. MANDO: [laughs] Mm hm. ADAM: So I love [inaudible], of course. MANDO: Yeah, you hit the one that works for you, write a little something about it. It's all right. ADAM: Exactly, yeah. MANDO: All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on, loved having you on. Special Guest: Adam Ross Nelson.

Parshat Shelach - Geoffrey Stern with Rabbi Adam Mintz, visit with Rav Abraham Isaac Kook, Rabbi Yitz Greenberg and listen to a live recording or Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach.  We explore what the story of the Biblical Scouts teaches us about whining, Jewish Power, Jewish Nationalism, Zionism, Jewish Renewal, love and respect for authority? So gird your loins and take a deep breath as we Get Guts. Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/327812 Transcript: Geoffrey Welcome, everybody, to Madlik, our weekly disruptive Torah, four o'clock Eastern Time on clubhouse and later published as a podcast. If you do listen to this as a podcast and you want to like us or give us some stars, that would be well appreciated. Today, we are going to discuss, the following narrative.  Picture the Jewish people in the desert coming out of Egypt. They're getting close to the border with the promised land, literally the land that was promised to them. And they sent out 12 either spies or scouts to scout the land. And there's one scout from each tribe and they're instructed to go to the country (Numbers, Chapter 13 and 14) to determine whether it's strong or weak, few or many.  Are the people that dwell in there, good or bad are the towns they live in open or fortified. Is the soil rich or poor? Is it wooded or not? Really a total fact-finding mission.  And the story recounts how they get there. And it's harvest festival and they harvest some grapes that have become almost iconic in terms of how large they were. And then they lodge their report "and ten of them say, we came to the land you sent to us. It does indeed flow with milk and honey. And this is its food." And they showed them the grapes. However, and here's the however, the people who inhabit the country are powerful and the cities are fortified and very large. Moreover, we saw anakites (giants) and they go on as they're talking. The other two was Joshua and a guy named Caleb, and he hushed the people before Moses and he said, let's just go up. We shall gain possession of it. So Joshua and Caleb were enthusiastic about going ahead to the Promised Land. But they continued speaking and they said we cannot attack that people for it is stronger than we. It is one that devours its settlers, Eretz ochelwet yoshveha... a land that literally eats its inhabitants and then they go back and they say the final punch line and it says, and we looked like grasshoppers to ourselves and so we must have looked to them. And ultimately the story ends with obviously God being extremely upset. Here is a people that he took the trouble of redeeming from slavery to freedom, and it ultimately is mired in a slavery; exile mentality. And can't make the switch. And they want to go back to Egypt. They would rather be taken care of and be slaves. And this story ends with God saying, let me get rid of them all, right, now and Moses, I will take you and Joshua and Caleb and the believers into the land. And Moses convinces him not to do that and God forgives them. And the language that he uses to forgive them is the penultimate forgiveness verses of the Torah that we use on Yom Kippur. And ultimately, that whole generation is to die out and a new generation is to come into the land. So I'm going to stop right here and ask you, Rabbi Adam and anyone else who wants to participate, what is the takeaway from this story at even the most superficial level? Adam There is so much. Thank you, Geoffrey, for the for the introduction and for just kind of the background of the story, You know, at least one piece of the take away is that you need to trust. You need to trust in God and you need to trust in ourselves that the mistake that the people, the Jews made the desert was you know, there were a lot of different ways to understand the report of the spies, but they chose the way that it was the most scary, the most intimidating. They didn't trust in themselves. They didn't trust in God. And that's what got them in trouble. So I think the first lesson is a lesson about trust. Geoffrey  And faith and confidence Adam Trust and faith I'm putting together correct That's my first take away Geoffrey But of course, to move you forward, there is that kind of telling comment where they said they didn't say we'd looked like grasshoppers to them. They said we looked like grasshoppers to ourselves, and we must have looked like grasshoppers to them, too. What is that add? Adam That means that if you're insecure, then, you know, that's your downfall. If you think that your grasshoppers, then other people can pick that up in a minute. And they saw themselves as being weak. And the minute they saw themselves as being weak, they were weak and they'll be able to take advantage of them. Geoffrey So it's really as much about faith in God as it is about faith in oneself.  Self-esteem. Adam Right. And I'm a big believer that this story is not only about faith in God, it's about faith in oneself. Geoffrey So to raise the bar a little bit, the midrash seems to have the consensus that this took place on a very perspicuous day in the Jewish calendar. It took place on Tisha B'Av and it's recounted Tisha B'av, as you probably all know, is the day the greatest calamity in the history of the Jewish people occurred.  When the temple was destroyed.  According to tradition, both temples were destroyed on the same day. And the midrash and the Mishnah gives a long list of other calamities that either foreshadowed or followed afterwards. But this took place on Tisha B'aV.  And the Midrash says that when the people cried after hearing the report from the scouts, the Midrash says it was a Bechi Shel Chinam... It was an unjustified crying... a whining if you will. And because they cried, the Jewish people in the desert cried for no good reason. They would be destined to cry for good reason for the rest of the generations. And those of you who know Jewish tradition about Tisha B'av, cannot fail to hear in the bechi Shel Chinam...  this crying for no reason, an echo of the traditional reason that the temple was destroyed. And that was because of sinat chinam.... of hatred that was unjustified .... person to person. So what do you make of this counterpoint between these two various reasons for the beginning of all the calamities of the Jewish people beginning at that moment and both using this unjustified emotion? Adam  Let's take that midrash, that Midrash that you quote, Geoffrey, that you cried for no reason. Great phrase... you whine because you whine, I'm going to give you a reason to really cry. What does that mean? What that means is that we need to take a certain amount of responsibility. And if we're going to whine, God is going to give us a reason to whine. We can't whine, we need to be strong, and we need to have courage. We need to have faith in ourselves and in God. And if we can't do that, then God is going to punish us. He's going to give us a reason to cry. I think that's such a strong idea. Geoffrey And then all that is true. But I want to set it up as a counterpoint to "sinat Chinam". to blaming the destruction of the temple on the sins of the Jews. And what I'd love to do is to paint a picture that was inspired to me by Rav Abraham Yitzhak Kook, the first chief rabbi of the State of Israel, who actually took this midrash of baseless crying. And remember, this is an ultra-orthodox rabbi who breaks with the rest of the ultra-orthodox who believe that it is not up to man, it is not up to us to fabricate of faith and to take our land and to take the initiative. And he says, no, absolutely not that it is it is ours and it is our responsibility not to be small, but to be great. And this baseless whining, if you will, was the core of not only the narrative that we're reading about this Shabbat in this parsha, but is the core of the narrative of exile, of diminution, of oppression of the Jewish people through the ages. And I think if you add on to that context, part of that context is that the Jewish tradition for 2000 years of exile said that the Jewish people were exiled because they did something wrong. And this was something that was begun by the Jews, themselves in the prophets, Jeremiah and others, but clearly something that was literally embraced by the non-Jews who said if you are stateless, you must be deserving of this punishment. And so, in a sense, this baseless whining, this baseless diminution of yourself, I think is a counterpoint. And I don't want to focus less on the sin of hatred one against another and more on the fact of it's a sin that's keeping us away and that somehow or other we have to do something, maybe go to synagogue and pray, as opposed to taking our future into our hands and doing what Joshua and Caleb said, which is let's get up and go and take this land. Do you see that counterpoint Rabbi? Adam [That's a very interesting counterpoint. And I think that that's really the lesson of the whole scary counterpoint is the lesson. Right? Geoffrey I think so. I think so. It's one also of sadness and joy and so Rav Kook, when he describes this, he describes it in the context of we should be rejoicing on Tisha B'av, because one day Tisha B'av is going to be the happiest day. And that day will happen when we take our fate into our own hands. Adam I want to know what that means, taking fate into our own hands. What does that mean to you? Geoffrey So I'd like to move forward to answer that question to another theologian who's actually still alive, named Yitz Greenberg. And Yitz Greenberg talks about the Third Era of Judaism. And he actually describes that before the Holocaust, we lived in a world where we were waiting for divine redemption, and we were trying to make ourselves purer so that we would deserve divine redemption. And he says after the Holocaust, many people would want to talk about the "hester Panim", the fact that God's divine presence was hidden. And he says that's the wrong syntax. He talks about after the Holocaust we now have to talk about "was man missing" and that man now has to take into his or her own hands their future. That's his takeaway from the absence of God, which is the positive flip side of that, which is the ultimate responsibility for the presence of man. Adam What do you make of that? Let me turn it back to you, Geoffrey. What do you think about Yitz Greenberg's comment? Geoffrey Well, I agree with him very much. And when I kind of felt it in my gut because I truly believe that the renaissance of the Jewish people and the revival of the state of Israel is not simply like the meraglim, the scouts, a story, an episode. I think it is the essence of the culmination of Jewish history. And so I try to make sense of it in terms of the arc of Jewish history. And actually, Greenberg talks in terms of what happened after the Holocaust, in terms of the UN and human rights and national movements and all that. He makes the context even larger. But it really does speak to me and it speaks to me in a sense that is core to who I am as a proud Jew. So it really does resonate. Adam It's a great I think it's a fantastic argument by Itz Greenberg. And maybe what makes it the most powerful is it is kind of surprising you wouldn't have expected it. Geoffrey In terms of who Yitz Greenberg is as an Orthodox Jew, Adam correct, Geoffrey I mean, I think in a sense what we're talking about is not something that we're kind of creating out of nothing. The truth is that Ralph Kook and especially but also Yitz Greenberg coming out of an ultra-orthodox background, saw it. They saw the real tension between the Judaism of the galut... of the exile and a new Judaism born after the ashes, so to speak, and the revival of the Jewish nationalist dream. It lived itself out, in other words. And I also came from a very ultra-orthodox background. And these are things that you study, and you learn.  They're very much alive. This this sense of you talk about trust. It's a different type of trust and faith. It's a faith that God will take care of us. God will provide the answer. And it's ultimately one that I think I really do. I feel like I have to reject. And it's not almost a nostalgic old faith as opposed to a new one.  it's a new faith that has an emphasis and an imperative to it. Adam Yeah. That that idea of a new thing I think is very, very powerful. And that's really what Yitz Greenberg is talking about, is that we have to create for ourselves a new faith and that new faith is a faith that requires a tremendous amount of strength and courage. Can you imagine creating a new a new faith? Well, something that's so counter to everything that we were bought up with in our very orthodox backgrounds, isn't it? Geoffrey Well, I mean, you know, we listen to whether it's the song of the parting of the sea where we say lo b'bekochi, that it is not with our power, not with our might, that we will survive, but only through God. And Greenberg has an amazing quote that is a variation on something I believe Santayana said, and its "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But absolute powerlessness corrupts the most". And I think what he was saying here is the powerlessness .... the lack of willingness to accept one's own fate, to accept power, to be a victim, to be a martyr, to play that role is really antithetical to the world and the renewal of Judaism and the state of Israel that we see. And I think it comes up in our discussions today, and I'm not preaching to anyone. I'm preaching to myself here. You know, as we see the discussion about Israel, especially in the last month, rive up and we feel, do we have to stand up for it or do we have to? What is the right balance between empathizing with the poor people in Gaza and the Palestinians and their national dream and ours? And I think that part of what this message told me this week as I studied it and as I read it, is you can care for other people, but you first have to care for yourself. You have to be in touch and understand your national dream before you can embrace someone else's national dream. You have to respect yourself. You can't be a grasshopper or a cockroach. That was the message I took away. And literally I was on the fence in terms of...  Let this pass and do we really need to to stick up for ourselves and and make a scene and the take away from this parsha is that, you know, if not us, who then? Adam Do you think that we all have to share the same dream? Geoffrey No, no, absolutely not, and I think, if I hear you correctly, you know, would we ever want to totally lose the message of a Jeremiah who says if bad things happen to you, you need to be introspective and you need to look to see what you can do better with your life, both morally, ethically and spiritually? I hope we never lose that. But certainly when it goes to the extreme, when  bad things happen to good people, it must be good people's fault. And we have to check on Mezuzahs. I think it is is a sickness. And I do believe we have to be comfortable in saying, damn it, we deserve a full life, too, and we deserve to live out our national and lifelong [national aspiration]. I was at a wedding earlier this week and I couldn't but stop to listen to all the words about one day we will be dancing in the streets of Jerusalem and the broken glass over Jerusalem. And I said to myself, we've been doing this for two thousand years. This is not a political statement. This is who we are. We are those scouts. We are that generation outside of the promised land. And we've got to fight for it.  We'll be respected. I think this was one of the messages of the Zionists, and it's only partially borne out... We'll be respected when we respect ourselves and when we stand on our own two feet and when we have our own army and we have our own language. Adam Yeah, I mean, that was you know, that was the lesson of the state of Israel that we have to believe in ourselves if we're going to have our own state. If we don't believe in ourselves, then we don't have a chance. It's not that people have to believe in us. We have to believe in ourselves. I mean, that's really nice, Geoffrey because what you're really in this week of the elections and everything, in Israel and they make a government. And what you're really saying is that it's not about people believing in us. It's about us believing in ourselves. Geoffrey And then I think it's like they always say, "Ve'ahavta l"rayacha Kwemocha" , love your neighbor as yourself. I really do believe that we can we are better when we respect ourselves. And it's trite, but I think it's true. I'd like to go on to another thought leader who is not normally considered a thought leader. He's thought of more as the Singing Rabbi. His name is Shlomo Carlebach. And a few years ago, I came across a recording of him talking about just this parsha. So I'm going to try something new on Madlik Clubhouse. And since it is an audio only platform, I'm going to try to play Shlomo Carlebach...  I'm going to invite him, so to speak, on to clubhouse. And I think you'll all be as excited as I am to see the personal direction that he takes this into, because we've been talking a lot about nationalism and movements and he goes in a different direction that I think relates more to Jewish renewal. So let's see if I can get this to work. Speaker Shlomo Carlebach  I just want to give you a little vitamin pill and strength, everybody talking about the Meraglim so much and I'm sure it sunk into you. Anybody who comes back from Israel and tells anything bad about Israel, tell them, my dear brother, the spies destroyed Israel and they didn't lie it's true. Moshe Rabenu says to Yehoshua (Joshua) "God should give you strength not to listen to them. Now, listen to this. Who are the miraglim? The miraglim were the biggest Rebbes of the world 10 big Rebbes. Just imagine yourself, little schmendrick, like you and I. We're going on a mission ... 10 big rabbis. And Yeshua was mamash a pupil of Moshe Rabbenu. The most humble person in the world. Right. All the rabbis sit there, and they say, listen, I want you to know they tell each other it's a bad scene to go to Israel, forget it "A land that eats it's people" don't go there. Do you know, according to the Torah, the majority decides? The Torah! You ask a yid, Torah... right? I want you to know, friends, thousands of Jews would have stayed alive if they would have not listened to a lot of rabbis. I know a Yid in Williamsburg. He lived somewhere, had a wife and 12 children, 1937. He asked a Rebbe: "Should I go to Israel?" He says: "God forbid, Israel is not frum" . He would have had his wife and 12 children. You know why Yehusha is the one to conquer Israel? Because Moshe Rabbenu gave them strength not to listen to anybody. Have enough guts! if the Ribono shel olam shines something into me, that's it. I want you to know there is prophecy .. Eretz Yisrael is deeper than prophecy. Prophecy means I know what's happening. What will happen tomorrow. I know which gilgil (re-incarnation) I am in. It's all cute. It's not what I need to know? The greatest light of Eretz Yisrael is to have enough guts to listen to the deepest depths of my heart, the deepest, deepest depts of my heart. My friends, I bless you and me. If you and I want to conquer Israel, want to make our way to the Holy Land, make our way into Yiddishkite, let's have the guts not to listen to anybody. I want you to know something else. The saddest thing in the world is... I want you to know everybody when they get married, they built their Eretz Yisrael. The Huppah is their Jerusalem. I want you to know, you know, the walking to the Huppah, it's like Avraham Avenu, is walking in Eretz Yisrael. The standing under the Huppah is like Yerushalyim, As it says: Omdos Hayu Ragalenu Yerusalim..." I bless you, friends. Whenever you find your soulmate, please don't ask anybody. Conquer your Eretz Yisrael! Just listen to the inside of the inside. Listen to the great rabbi ... the Mraglim... you know what they said they felt like cockroaches and mamash a giant. Right? I thought you're the greatest rabbi in the world. You afraid? Yeah. To the truth. Jacob teitz, this is my Rebbe? I don't want a Rebbe who's afraid. I don't a Rebbe who's afraid of anything in the world. I need a rebbe who's not afraid. And you know something in exile. It's a cute Rebbe'la. He's afraid of this one. Afraid of this one .. in Exile you can make it. You can even make to receive manna from heaven. Eretz Yisrael, No! Friends, I Bless you to have guts. inside. Inside, inside, inside. When you find your soul mate, just do it. Friends, I tell you something. If you would have asked all the Rebbes. Should we make a little ruach here, a little get-together. They would have asked how big is the mechitza, where do you get the meat. And who is Gedalia, who is Noami? Who is Meyer? Forget me, I'm treif anyway. Hash V'shalom... you're not permitted to do it! and the meantime, Baruch HaShem, Gedalia had the privilege of bringing together 100's of thousands of people. OK friends, Good Shabbos Good Yontov and I bless you to make it to Eretz Yisrael this summer. Don't ask questions, just go Good Shabbos Good Yom tov. Geoffrey Yeah. So had you heard that before? Adam That was amazing. Geoffrey Thank you. I was I was blown away. And by the way, it's edited. He also talks about women learning Torah and he says, are we going to ask a rebbe if we can study Torah? Women can study Torah. It really bridges the divide to the personal, personal, spiritual growth, and it bridges the divide to renewal of Judaism. And I was just blown away by it. So I. I just today came from a funeral of a Holocaust survivor. And her name is Esther Pederseil, and she was ninety-five and she had guts. And if we're talking about guts, I think that we have to definitely reference people like her who are survivors, they're not victims, they're survivors. And when her children spoke, they talked about her love of fashion and style, and they said that was her. That was her not.... Not her revenge, but her way of living. She wanted to live her life to the fullest and as much as she could she, showed that she was in the camp of Joshua and Caleb. And I just think that the lesson is really universal at the end of the day, it's a lesson for us personally. It's a lesson for every people who want to renew their future and get to their promised land. But it's certainly a lesson for us. And I think we should never whine, and we should only choose to conquer what we can conquer and to think highly of ourselves Adam And to listen only to ourselves, not to listen to others. What a powerful idea. Geoffrey Yeah, I, I when he kept on saying over and over again, I don't need a rebbe who's afraid, I mean  it was very powerful. And he touched thousands, tens of thousands of people with his music but also with the message of renewal and renewal Judaism. And as you said before, what our promised land is, is open to interpretation. But I think the message that one has to grab that and to actively aspire and engage. That is a universal truth. Adam Couldn't agree more. That was beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Geoffrey OK, well, Shabbat shalom, everybody. Adam  Shabbat Shalom everybody. Looking forward to next week.    

Episode: How to Become a Real Estate Developer with Adam Gilbert Guest: Adam Gilbert is the President of The Firm Commercial where he leads a team of agents specializing in commercial real estate sales, leasing, land acquisition, development, government relations, and value added entitlement development deals. Big Idea: Any Real Estate Agent, Developer, or Investor Generates Consistent Income by Positioning themselves to Receive a Continuous Flow of Deals Crossing their Path. Adam has a unique way of doing this in the realm of commercial real estate, as discussed during this episode. This Episode of The REI Diamonds Show is Sponsored by the Deal Machine. This Software Enables Real Estate Investors to Develop a Reliable & Low Cost Source of Off Market Deals. For a Limited Time, You Get Free Access at http://REIDealMachine.com/ Resources Mentioned in this Episode: https://www.TheFirmCommercial.com For Access to Real Estate Deals You Can Buy & Sell for Profit: https://AccessOffMarketDeals.com/podcast/ View the Episode Description & Transcript Here: https://reidiamonds.com/how-to-become-a-real-estate-developer-with-adam-gilbert/ Dan Breslin: Some of my best partners have come through listening this podcast. Maybe you’re the next. Today’s guest is Adam Gilbert, the president of The Firm Commercial, where he leads a team of agents specializing in commercial real estate sales, leasing, land acquisition, development, government relations, and value-added land entitlement development deals. Any real estate agent developer or investor will generate a consistent income through positioning themselves to receive a continuous flow of deals that are coming across their desk. Adam has a unique way of doing this in the realm of commercial real estate as discussed during this episode. And we also dive deep on how to become a real estate developer covering details of a few recent development deals and we also touch on the Palm Springs, California Real Estate market. So, I was doing some research for our show here and I found that you’ve recently exited your vacation rental business. So, I’d like to begin right at that point if we could, and maybe you could touch on how you built the business, how it operated at scale, and then what was the ultimate reasoning that led you to selling and exiting. Adam: Sure. So, quick background, I’m born and raised here in Palm Springs, and I left for school. I came back in about 2011, which was an interesting time in the market for a variety of reasons. But that summer, I had stayed in this new thing called an Airbnb in 2011, Washington, DC. We had spent the summer in New York and my wife was like, “We’re going to spend the night in someone’s room at their house? This is crazy.” I’m like, “We did it. This is the future, honey. This is going to be amazing.” And so, when I moved back to Palm Springs, there we have like a long history of vacation, rental properties for 50-60 years, but not on the platform of Airbnb. So, I was one of the ones who got just a couple of condos on the platform and they just started crushing. Absolutely amazing because this whole new marketplace of people were looking for properties on Airbnb. So, it kind of just grew organically. I was like, “Okay. Well, I’ve got a housekeeping service, I’ve got a handyman, I know how to do these reservations, and we just built this business.” By the time 2018 came around, I had 35 full-time properties. We had like, 50 around the time Coachella came. It was a great business. It’s a very labor-intensive business and it takes a lot of time, and it’s holidays and all that kind of stuff. So, at that point in my real estate investing career, it was just a little bit too much. And so, I made a deal with TurnKey, who’s a venture-backed vacation rental company out of Austin, Texas and they were acquiring small companies like mine at the time. I made an exit and focus my attention on other ventures. Dan: Okay, so was it more of a freedom thing? Or was there some timing and pricing that also made it worthwhile? Adam: There were a few factors in there. Just the perils of running a business, partners, all that kind of stuff. I think it was more timing. I had to decide. It was that point when I had 35 properties, I would have needed to invest in the business, in terms of employees. I did some calculations, I wasn’t going to make any money again until I got 75 properties, and I’m like, “Okay. Is this what I want to spend my time doing?” So, it’s kind of an 80/20 principle thing of “Where am I going to focus my time to have the best ROI?” Dan: Got you. So, what’s been the focus of your career? Since 2018, you exited, you jettisoned the responsibilities, which was kind of what I was expecting an answer there. So, what’s been the focus since then? Adam: Yeah. So, mostly since then, it’s been building of my real estate brokerage, both commercial and residential, here. It’s mostly commercial, but on the residential side, I do specialize in short-term vacation rentals, which the Palm Springs Market is well known for and has been absolutely blasting since COVID. Palm Springs has been a great market since that’s happened and then, I’m also working on my own deals and I have a little niche in value-add entitlement deals and zone changes. And so, I spent a lot of my time kind of doing that and entitlement work. Adam & I Discuss How to Become a Real Estate Developer • Government Relations During Land Development • Identifying Value in Underzoned Property • Palm Springs California Real Estate Market • The Group Any Commercial Real Estate Broker is Wise to Join Relevant Episodes: (There are 191 Content Packed Interviews in Total) • Land Entitlement Process for Multi Family Development with Reed Goossens https://bit.ly/3wKf7l7 • Million Dollar Wholesaling & Multi-Family Apartments with Aaron Fragnito https://bit.ly/3uu0rFd • Marketing, Meetups & $100 Million in Apartment Syndications with Adam Adams https://bit.ly/2TqguqE • Negotiating No Money Down Commercial Real Estate Deals with Peter Conti https://bit.ly/3usoggx • 100+ Unit Apartment Syndication with Stephanie Walter https://bit.ly/3vwHfaZ

Jessica St Pierre tells us what it’s like to be an Executive Assistant. Jess is also an Autistic Advocate. You can connect with her on Instagram here. And here is her art page. Transcript: Thora: 00:00:11 Hi, and welcome. Adam: Welcome. You’re listening to Autism On Shift. Thora: I am Thora Adam: I’m Adam. Thora: What we do here is we talk to autistic folks about what we do for work. So they’re on shift. Get it? But we also want to shift the way we think about what people with autism are capable of. Exactly. Yep. Thora: So today we are talking to Jessica St. Pierre, Jessica has been, um, actually we’ve spoken to Jessica once before. Adam: We have, so welcome back. Thora: Yes, welcome back. Adam: Thank you so much for joining us again again, right. Thora: We totally didn’t mean to waste your time, but, um, for the listeners, Jessica so graciously agreed to hang out with us again, because she was our very first interview and we completely sucked as hosts. Jess: 00:01:09 That’s not true. Um, I don’t think that’s true, but I didn’t listen to the recordings of, I'll believe you guys, but I’m glad to be here again. Adam: Thank you. And you’re very kind. Thora: 00:01:17 Thank you. We appreciate it. Um, so Jess is an Executive Assistant and she’s going to tell us all about what that means, and then we’re going to ask her some seriously personal questions. Adam: Yeah! Jess: Should I be scared? Thora: No, no, they’re not personal. We’re talking about work. Adam: How many teeth do you have? Jess: Even I don’t know the answer to that. Adam: See, that's the right answer. That was correct. We need some sound effects. Thora: Uh, okay. So, um, so tell us about the life of an executive assistant. What does your day-to-day look like? Jess: 00:01:57 Um, my day-to-day consists of a bunch of different tasks that are not necessarily related to each other. Um, as the, uh, the word assistant says I’m, I’m there to help an executive in this case. Um, it’s my boss. So she’s the owner of the company I work for. It is a, um, doula agency. So basically, yeah, it’s really exciting. It’s actually really fun. So basically my boss has this team of doulas who she sends, uh, to customers who need help with prenatal and postnatal, help, whatever. So I help her out with, uh, creating systems or, you know, helping the doulas, get in touch with the clients, but also, you know, making appointments for her. You know, it’s a bunch of little tasks, there’s a lot of administrative, uh, paperwork as well that I help her with. So yeah, my work is kind of all over the place. Adam 00:03:08 That’s great though. You don’t want to get bored and doing one thing over and over again, although some people do like that. Jess: 00:03:15 Yeah. I do enjoy some of my tasks more than others, but, um, for me it really keeps it fresh and I was, uh, kind of explaining to you guys the last time I do, I do fee

Adam: Alright, hi Jin!Jin: Hi, Adam.Adam: How are you doing?Jin: I'm doing good.Adam: Ah, you're from Nepal right?Jin: Yes, I am.Adam: I was thinking about going there. Could you tell me some good places to visit while I'm in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, sure. It's really nice a nice place. I mean, you should totally come to my country. I would recommend that you should go to a place called Pokhara because that's the most famous tourist site in Nepal. There's a really beautiful lake there, and then I know that you like sports, so then there are so many different kinds of activities like bungee jumping, rafting, kayaking... I don't know. What is it?Adam: Kayaking?Jin: Kayaking, yeah! So yeah, I think you'll love it there. That's the best place I would say.Adam: Oh, cool! How far is that from the capital?Jim: Ah, you have to take a mini-bus, and it will take you around six hours and you'll be there.Adam: OK, cool! When's the best time to go there?Jin: I think during spring would be better.Adam: Yeah?Jin: Yeah. It's really nice there, like, and the people are really nice. The food is amazing, and there's a really good nightlife there because people ... like there's ... what do you call it ... pubs, and like live music, so yeah, it's a really fun place to be at night and in the daytime.Adam: That's great. I love live music. Do you have any like events or festivals that I should go to when I'm in NepalJin: Actually, in Nepal there's a lot of festivals, but I would recommend you to go there when there's a festival called Holi. It's around February ... March. (Laughter) So yeah, the festival is around March and what we do is we play with colors. We throw colors at each other, and then even throw water ballons. It's really fun, like the whole environment is really colorful, bright and everyone is very happy.Adam: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. I think I've seen pictures of that before. How many days is that celebration?Jin: It's actually only one day.Adam: Oh, really?Jim: Yeah.Adam: Cool, I really want to go. Anything else you can tell us about Nepal?Jin: If you like hiking, then Nepal has a lot of mountains. Actually, Mt. Everest is in Nepal so you can even try going there.Adam: Wow, that would be amazing. I really look forward to going there. Thank you so much for your time today.Jin: Sure anytime!

Adam: Alright, hi Jin!Jin: Hi, Adam.Adam: How are you doing?Jin: I'm doing good.Adam: Ah, you're from Nepal right?Jin: Yes, I am.Adam: I was thinking about going there. Could you tell me some good places to visit while I'm in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, sure. It's really nice a nice place. I mean, you should totally come to my country. I would recommend that you should go to a place called Pokhara because that's the most famous tourist site in Nepal. There's a really beautiful lake there, and then I know that you like sports, so then there are so many different kinds of activities like bungee jumping, rafting, kayaking... I don't know. What is it?Adam: Kayaking?Jin: Kayaking, yeah! So yeah, I think you'll love it there. That's the best place I would say.Adam: Oh, cool! How far is that from the capital?Jim: Ah, you have to take a mini-bus, and it will take you around six hours and you'll be there.Adam: OK, cool! When's the best time to go there?Jin: I think during spring would be better.Adam: Yeah?Jin: Yeah. It's really nice there, like, and the people are really nice. The food is amazing, and there's a really good nightlife there because people ... like there's ... what do you call it ... pubs, and like live music, so yeah, it's a really fun place to be at night and in the daytime.Adam: That's great. I love live music. Do you have any like events or festivals that I should go to when I'm in NepalJin: Actually, in Nepal there's a lot of festivals, but I would recommend you to go there when there's a festival called Holi. It's around February ... March. (Laughter) So yeah, the festival is around March and what we do is we play with colors. We throw colors at each other, and then even throw water ballons. It's really fun, like the whole environment is really colorful, bright and everyone is very happy.Adam: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. I think I've seen pictures of that before. How many days is that celebration?Jin: It's actually only one day.Adam: Oh, really?Jim: Yeah.Adam: Cool, I really want to go. Anything else you can tell us about Nepal?Jin: If you like hiking, then Nepal has a lot of mountains. Actually, Mt. Everest is in Nepal so you can even try going there.Adam: Wow, that would be amazing. I really look forward to going there. Thank you so much for your time today.Jin: Sure anytime!

Adam: Alright, hi Jin!Jin: Hi, Adam.Adam: How are you doing?Jin: I'm doing good.Adam: Ah, you're from Nepal right?Jin: Yes, I am.Adam: I was thinking about going there. Could you tell me some good places to visit while I'm in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, sure. It's really nice a nice place. I mean, you should totally come to my country. I would recommend that you should go to a place called Pokhara because that's the most famous tourist site in Nepal. There's a really beautiful lake there, and then I know that you like sports, so then there are so many different kinds of activities like bungee jumping, rafting, kayaking... I don't know. What is it?Adam: Kayaking?Jin: Kayaking, yeah! So yeah, I think you'll love it there. That's the best place I would say.Adam: Oh, cool! How far is that from the capital?Jim: Ah, you have to take a mini-bus, and it will take you around six hours and you'll be there.Adam: OK, cool! When's the best time to go there?Jin: I think during spring would be better.Adam: Yeah?Jin: Yeah. It's really nice there, like, and the people are really nice. The food is amazing, and there's a really good nightlife there because people ... like there's ... what do you call it ... pubs, and like live music, so yeah, it's a really fun place to be at night and in the daytime.Adam: That's great. I love live music. Do you have any like events or festivals that I should go to when I'm in NepalJin: Actually, in Nepal there's a lot of festivals, but I would recommend you to go there when there's a festival called Holi. It's around February ... March. (Laughter) So yeah, the festival is around March and what we do is we play with colors. We throw colors at each other, and then even throw water ballons. It's really fun, like the whole environment is really colorful, bright and everyone is very happy.Adam: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. I think I've seen pictures of that before. How many days is that celebration?Jin: It's actually only one day.Adam: Oh, really?Jim: Yeah.Adam: Cool, I really want to go. Anything else you can tell us about Nepal?Jin: If you like hiking, then Nepal has a lot of mountains. Actually, Mt. Everest is in Nepal so you can even try going there.Adam: Wow, that would be amazing. I really look forward to going there. Thank you so much for your time today.Jin: Sure anytime!

Adam: Alright, hi! I'm Adam, and I'm with Jin today, and we're talking about your home country, Nepal.Jin: Yes, that's right.Adam: Very cool. I know that the Himalayas and even Mt. Everest is in Nepal, which is amazing. What else can you tell us about the geography of your country?Jin: Yeah, well actually, when people think about Nepal, they just talk about the mountains, but then there are actually three regions. There is the mountain region, and then there is another hilly region, and then the Terai region, so then in the Terai region, the earth, like the surface is really flat, and that's where people grow crops. That's where like we get all the grains from, and then there is the hilly region, which is in the middle part Nepal, and that's where I am from, the capital, Kathmandu, and it's like, the temperature is really good there because it's not really hot, not really cold. Ah, in the Terai region it's really hot, but in the hilly region, like it's perfect, and then there's the Himalayas, where it's super cold, and that's where there are like a lot of mountains, which divides us from China.Adam: So in the south it's kind of the farming area?Jin: Yeah, in the south, yeah, like everyone's ... the main job is farming.Adam: That's next to India?Jin: India, yeah.Adam: What kind of farming do they do in Nepal in the south?Jin: They usually grow rice there, and since the land is so fertile, there a like a lot of vegetables, rice, and like a lot of fruits. Everything that grows in hot temperatures.Adam: Oh, so you have a lot of fruits in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, we do. We have a lot of fruits, like of different kinds, like I told you, since it's cold, hot and moderate as well, so like we get fruits from all different places and it's amazing.Adam: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know Nepal had so many different climates in one country.Jin: Yeah, for a small country, it's a lot, I know.Adam: Well, thank you so much for telling us about Nepal today.Jin: You're welcome. You can ask me anytime.

Adam: Alright, hi! I'm Adam, and I'm with Jin today, and we're talking about your home country, Nepal.Jin: Yes, that's right.Adam: Very cool. I know that the Himalayas and even Mt. Everest is in Nepal, which is amazing. What else can you tell us about the geography of your country?Jin: Yeah, well actually, when people think about Nepal, they just talk about the mountains, but then there are actually three regions. There is the mountain region, and then there is another hilly region, and then the Terai region, so then in the Terai region, the earth, like the surface is really flat, and that's where people grow crops. That's where like we get all the grains from, and then there is the hilly region, which is in the middle part Nepal, and that's where I am from, the capital, Kathmandu, and it's like, the temperature is really good there because it's not really hot, not really cold. Ah, in the Terai region it's really hot, but in the hilly region, like it's perfect, and then there's the Himalayas, where it's super cold, and that's where there are like a lot of mountains, which divides us from China.Adam: So in the south it's kind of the farming area?Jin: Yeah, in the south, yeah, like everyone's ... the main job is farming.Adam: That's next to India?Jin: India, yeah.Adam: What kind of farming do they do in Nepal in the south?Jin: They usually grow rice there, and since the land is so fertile, there a like a lot of vegetables, rice, and like a lot of fruits. Everything that grows in hot temperatures.Adam: Oh, so you have a lot of fruits in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, we do. We have a lot of fruits, like of different kinds, like I told you, since it's cold, hot and moderate as well, so like we get fruits from all different places and it's amazing.Adam: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know Nepal had so many different climates in one country.Jin: Yeah, for a small country, it's a lot, I know.Adam: Well, thank you so much for telling us about Nepal today.Jin: You're welcome. You can ask me anytime.

Adam: Alright, hi! I'm Adam, and I'm with Jin today, and we're talking about your home country, Nepal.Jin: Yes, that's right.Adam: Very cool. I know that the Himalayas and even Mt. Everest is in Nepal, which is amazing. What else can you tell us about the geography of your country?Jin: Yeah, well actually, when people think about Nepal, they just talk about the mountains, but then there are actually three regions. There is the mountain region, and then there is another hilly region, and then the Terai region, so then in the Terai region, the earth, like the surface is really flat, and that's where people grow crops. That's where like we get all the grains from, and then there is the hilly region, which is in the middle part Nepal, and that's where I am from, the capital, Kathmandu, and it's like, the temperature is really good there because it's not really hot, not really cold. Ah, in the Terai region it's really hot, but in the hilly region, like it's perfect, and then there's the Himalayas, where it's super cold, and that's where there are like a lot of mountains, which divides us from China.Adam: So in the south it's kind of the farming area?Jin: Yeah, in the south, yeah, like everyone's ... the main job is farming.Adam: That's next to India?Jin: India, yeah.Adam: What kind of farming do they do in Nepal in the south?Jin: They usually grow rice there, and since the land is so fertile, there a like a lot of vegetables, rice, and like a lot of fruits. Everything that grows in hot temperatures.Adam: Oh, so you have a lot of fruits in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, we do. We have a lot of fruits, like of different kinds, like I told you, since it's cold, hot and moderate as well, so like we get fruits from all different places and it's amazing.Adam: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know Nepal had so many different climates in one country.Jin: Yeah, for a small country, it's a lot, I know.Adam: Well, thank you so much for telling us about Nepal today.Jin: You're welcome. You can ask me anytime.

There are some big-ticket items that most people have and need, but absolutely hate shopping for. Mattresses fall into that category. In fact, studies have shown that people would rather go to the dentist than buy a new mattress. Helix Sleep is trying to take the pain out of that experience. Adam Tishman is the co-founder and co-CEO of Helix Sleep, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explains why his DTC mattress company is different from the rest, and why those differences matter. He explains the reason it was critical to spend time researching, testing, and perfecting a product before bringing it to market and how that upfront effort created priceless brand equity. Adam also dives into personalization, but he takes it beyond the need to simply give customers a personalized experience, and explains why data-collection and a personalization strategy that includes personalized products can help you expand your business more successfully when you are ready.Main Takeaways:Slow And Steady: With a physical product that is dependent on reviews, rushing to market could spell disaster. Take the time to do the research, test, iterate, and develop a product that is review-ready before you present it to your customers.You’re Not Me: With certain products, there is a specific customer set or type of person for whom the product is made. With mattresses, every person has unique needs, so the product has to be personalized as much as possible. Finding the best way to understand your customers’ needs should be a top priority, and through multiple touchpoints and quizzes, you can gather the data necessary to provide the best experience and product.The Beginning of a Beautiful Friendship: By cultivating data and delivering personalized products and experiences for your customers, you are inherently forming a stronger relationship with them than a typical brand. Not only are you collecting insights that can be used to help you expand into new product lines, you are also creating a network of previous customers who are more likely to trust the brand and try something new.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. This is Stephanie Postles. Co-founder at mission.org, and your host. Today, we're chatting with Adam Tishman, the co-founder and co-CEO at HelixSleep. Adam, welcome to the show.Adam:Hey Stephanie, thanks so much for having me.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm excited to have you. so I have never said co-CEO before, which I kind of want to start there. Tell me a bit about being a co-CEO at a company.Adam:Yeah, definitely. So we founded the business, myself and two other co-founders, out of business school. And over the sort of evolution of the company and where we've been over the past five years, we actually run it with myself and one of the other co-founders as sort of the two headed dragon as co-CEOs. And then our third founder is our CFO and COO. And it works really well because it allows us to sort of manage different areas of the business at the CEO level and also work really collaboratively together as well.Stephanie:Awesome. So you co-founded HelixSleep and that was back in 2015, right?Adam:Yeah. So it was founded by myself and, as I said, two other co-founders back in business school, back in 2015. The three of us had moved to a new city to go to school, went through the process of buying a mattress just for ourselves. And it was sort of uniquely terrible in many ways, whether it was really confusing pricing and really expensive pricing in the store, really just bad in-store buying experience. We actually found out later doing research that buying a mattress is actually rated as a worse experience than going to the dentist. And the last thing was, it was just really confusing. If you don't buy mattresses all the time, which no one really does, and it's something that you buy somewhat infrequently, people have a really hard time understanding how to buy it. And so for us, we sort of saw the problem, saw some of the solutions that others in our category were trying to fix this problem, and felt like we could sort of come in and solve it in a much better, more efficient way.Stephanie:Got it. So five years ago it feels like so long ago, what was the market like back then? I mean, who were some of the up and coming people and what kind of unique angle did you guys see in the market at that time?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So five years ago, I would say the direct to consumer, or just generally buying mattresses online, was pretty nascent. It was predominantly, people were going into stores. There was actually a while where people were buying beds on phones, but we sort of saw the market, which is very consolidated at the traditional brand retail level. So you have sort of Simmon's, Tempur Sealy, Sleep Number, Casper, which is the most well known and largest player of the D to C mattress brands head launched recently and had really done a good job at showing that this was a category that could generate interest online, somewhat of an atypical category with low, as I mentioned, low ecommerce penetration. What we saw as the issues that I mentioned earlier, we felt that Casper and a lot of the other brands that were starting to pop up were sort of maybe filling in one friction, but replacing it with a different friction.Adam:So all of us, including Helix, offer products directly to consumers at much better price points, helping out that value chain issue with traditional retailers. Everyone tries to provide a much better buying experience through a really good user experience on the website, 100 night trial, free shipping, et cetera. The issue where we really differentiate at Helix is around the product itself. So what Casper did and what pretty much every other planner space did was said, "It's really challenging to choose a mattress. So we're going to just get rid of choice altogether, and offer one type of mattress for every single person."Adam:And what we found doing a whole ton of research and talking to people, and it sort of makes sense that if you think about it implicitly, is that there really is a wide variety of needs and preferences as it relates to your mattress and to the way that you sleep, the same way that we all don't fit in the same clothing. We all don't have the same exercise routine that works best for us, the same diet. Sleep is quite personal. Adam:So one of our missions was effectively, could we help customers understand the right products for them through a sleep quiz that asks questions about things that you knew about yourself? So your body type, your height, your weight, do you tend to sleep on your back or your stomach? Do you get hot at night? Do you get cold? Do you have back pain? Do you like a bed a little bit firmer or softer? And then we take that information and effectively translate it into the best mattress for you. So the order of the layers in the mattress, the density of those layers, the types of materials, the density of those materials, are all really important for getting the best night's sleep and effectively that's what we're doing. So we like to think of it as sort of providing a technology enriched solution as a salesperson. So instead of going into the store and sort of hanging out with sales person, we do that online through our quiz.Stephanie:Very cool. And yeah, what I love about what I read about you guys was that you did a ton of research. I think I read that you went through 100 plus page PhD dissertations, and you partnered with researchers in Europe to make sure you really understood how to create this algorithm and this quiz. Tell me a bit about your thought process there, because I think that's so different than a lot of D to C companies right now who are just trying to get that quick launch, take advantage of the market, and are just going really quickly instead of taking a step back and doing the research and figuring out how to solve the problem.Adam:100%. I think for us, none of the three of us came from a traditional mattress background, right? And so we did what three nerdy guys would do, which is we started to do research. And we actually had this idea and stumbled across a PhD dissertation on sleep ergonomics, which is the study of the sort of spinal alignment of your back while you're sleeping. You hear a lot about spinal alignment and ergonomics and sort of office chairs, but this was really the first PhD dissertation on that, with bodies lying down. And we actually noticed that at the bottom of the PhD dissertation, the head author had left his email address. And so we emailed him.Adam:A couple of days later, we got on a Skype call with him. They were located in Europe and then about a week and a half later, we actually flew to Europe and met with them and effectively worked with them to translate their initial science into the crux of our initial algorithm, which over the last five years, we've sort of wholly taken ownership of, and refined quite a lot. And so it was sort of a funny story because it really was, we got on a plane and went to Belgium and had to figure out where we were going and all those types of things. But it was really important because we felt like we had a scientific base for the hypothesis that we were making.Adam:I think to your second part of the question, it's really interesting, this tension around, do I want to get to market as quickly as possible, or do we want to take a step back, feel really confident in the research, the development, the product testing? As you mentioned, we went through many, many versions of the mattress, many, many versions of the algorithm on how we matched people. And the approach that we took was that you really only get to come out to the world and present your product once, at least in physical products, that's sort of our belief as differentiated, perhaps, from a more technical product where you can have an MVP. We couldn't really sell a mattress that was only 50% as good as we wanted it to be one day, because we would get terrible product reviews, and we couldn't sort of build brand equity that way. And so we did a lot of work upfront to make sure that the product is where we wanted it to be.Stephanie:That's great. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of room to partner with researchers around a bunch of different topics, but what was that partnership like? I mean, when you went over to Belgium and you're essentially building out a model or an algorithm based on this person's research, were they like, "I want a piece of the pie, I want a little equity," or were they ready to give you all the information for free?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So we ended up working out a deal with them where effectively, they provided consulting services in exchange for equity in the business. Of course, that could have been consulting services for money. At the time, this was literally very, very early days. It was actually before we started working with them before we had raised our seed round. So there wasn't any money to pay them really. And so we went ahead with an equity relationship, which we felt made sense at the time. We still feel like it makes sense today. We don't really work with them at all and have not for a while, but it was really helpful to sort of supercharge our learning and understanding in terms of the development of the product and the algorithm.Stephanie:Very cool. I mean, have you had to iterate the model? Do you see people requesting different sleeping habits or behaviors? Have things changed for the past five years where you've actually had to change the model a couple times?Adam:Yeah, a lot actually. It's one of the biggest, from a consumer perspective, our differentiation is about providing personalization and a more custom mattress buying experience, but from a business bottle perspective, our ability to look at our algorithm or our model and effectively improve it is a really big lever to what makes us unique. And so if you think about what we're doing, is we're taking, as I said, information about yourself, matching it to a mattress. And so over the years, we've effectively, having sold hundreds of thousands of beds, we just have a lot more data. So we've been able to improve both the way that we match you, so person A with these attributes, are you getting matched to bed XYZ, and sort of edit, that as well as making physical product improvements to the beds themselves.Adam:So a lot of people talk about AB testing and talk about opportunities with using data to improve your product as it relates to your digital product, right? Your onsite conversion or your UX or something like that. We have taken that mentality to the physical product as well. And we've actually been able to reduce our return rate, improve customer satisfaction, improve average order value, all the main metrics associated with product and product satisfaction, by effectively looking at it in that light.Stephanie:Got it. And I also it was reading that the return rate, if you overemphasize how you have free returns and the 100 day, night guarantee and all that, if you overdo that, you'll be able to sell a lot more just because people have peace of mind. Even though I think I saw at least, I mean, it was a Casper stat, but it was only 10% of the people or less actually returned their mattress. Do you guys go about that same way of thinking of overemphasize things to make people feel like it's a risk free purchase?Adam:Yeah, I think there's two things there. I think that in our category, offering a fairly long return period, it's typically 100 nights, is kind of necessary, because you need to make someone feel confident in purchasing such a large, but really expensive item, right? Average order values in our category are really high. And so people want to feel really confident in the product that they're ordering. And that's why all of these brands are offering free returns, free shipping. In many cases, or in most cases, really generous policies around warranties, et cetera. It's just offering more opportunity to make someone feel comfortable with spending those dollars. So we definitely approach it that way.Adam:I wouldn't say that we necessarily overemphasize it. The reality is, most people need around two to four weeks to get used to a new mattress. And then after that, you don't really need another 70 days, but people tend to like that process. And in terms of return rates, you're right that return rates, they're honestly, I mean, Casper's return rate is probably higher than that number you said, but they're not as bad as retail, traditional apparel or something where return rates are 40, 50% or something like that.Stephanie:Yep. What happens when a mattress is returned? Where does it go?Adam:Yeah, that's a good question. So we do a few things. So when customers want to return a product, first, we work with them to see why, because there are ways we actually can improve the product experience after the fact. So we can send you a topper that adjusts the feel or other things along those lines, but in cases where mattresses need to be returned,, at Helix, at least we actually donate the vast majority of them. So we have a network of donation partners across the country where we will donate them. In some cases, we cannot donate them, either because there's state laws against it, or city laws against it, or if someone's located in a somewhat remote area. And in which case, we work with junk removal partners that end up recycling them. So all of our beds are technically, in the 100 night period, considered lightly used. So they're eligible for donation.Stephanie:That's great. So I was reading there's about over 100 companies now that sell mattresses online. How do you show how different your mattresses are and the algorithm that you have going on? How do you showcase that value proposition on your website or your advertising?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So it's a good question. And it's funny. That quote comes up a lot, the 100 plus mattress companies. It's one of those weird categories where there is a very long tail of players. So you probably have 10 to 15 players that have reached any semblance of scale, and then 80 that are very, very small. I mean, you would almost consider them, the equivalent would be like a mom and pop shop in retail world. What I will say is that buying a mattress is a long lead process. So when you decide you want to buy a bed, you're typically in market for it for a week, a few weeks, months even.Adam:And what that means is that you have many touch points with multiple brands, right? And you can imagine it's like buying a car, it's like buying anything that's expensive. And so across that journey, we feel like we do a really good job of sort of elevating our brand proposition and really personalizing our messaging specifically to consumers in ways that really speak to them so that our differentiation shines. The other thing is that, because of the way that we customize beds, and also that we really spend a lot of time on making sure that the product quality is excellent, is we just win a lot of awards. So we were named GQ's best mattress, Wired best mattress, whole host of others. And then we also get awards for specific affinity groups. So best mattress for back sleepers, best mattress for plus size consumers, or something like that. And we're able to elevate those messages on individual mattresses.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah. I saw, I think it was your organic line that won an award. How did you guys think about developing a new product that was organic materials? And also, launching like that, does it make your other products maybe not look as good? Or how did you guys think about that? Will it help or hurt us putting out an organic line? Because when I looked at it and I look at any organic products, it always makes you think, "Oh, well, what's in the other one if this one's made of natural materials and no chemicals?" So how did you guys think about that balance?Adam:Yeah, that's a great question. So we actually thought about that question a lot, and where we ended up and it's almost the core strategy of Helix is that throughout the first three and a half years of our business, we were holistically a single D to C brand Helix, right? Started out as just mattresses and then extended into other sleep products, pillows, sheets, box springs, adjustable bases, et cetera. And then about a year and a half ago, we took a step back, saw what we were building, which was this really fast, growing profitable brand, and in a category that we were sort of one of the leaders in, but what we saw under the hood was this really excellent collection of skillsets across our team, across our technology, some in-house built technology, across our supply chain capabilities and relationships. Could we view ourselves less as a single brand and more as a platform on which we could build a portfolio of home good brands?Adam:And that is the strategy that we are currently on. And so Helix is our sort of most well-known largest brand, but Birch, which is our organic line, or our organic brand, was launched about a year ago. And it is actually a sort of related, but completely separate brand. So if you were to go to birchliving.com, you would effectively see an entirely organic ecosystem with the goal of really feeling, I mean, truthfully feeling authentic to consumers that care about organic products, that supply chain is 100% sustainable. It's just a much different consumer. And so we want to make sure we talk to that niche consumer in a specific way that is perhaps different than a typical Helix consumer. And we've extended that process out more recently with the launch of All Form, which is our actually our first step out of the bedroom into the living room, which is a modular furniture brand.Stephanie:I love that. I mean, that seems so smart because it's different consumers are looking for different things and like you were just mentioning, if you're comparing the two, then you might actually walk away feeling bad if you went with the one that wasn't organic, but when you have it on a completely different site, you're really meeting the needs of the person who's coming there instead of trying to put everything on one site. So I love that.Adam:Yeah. I think it's certainly a slightly different strategy, but we just feel like consumers, especially online consumers, want niche experiences and want experiences that really speak to who they are, and their preferences. And we were sort of already doing that on the product side with Helix, but it made sense to do it in this scenario on the brand side with Birch as well.Stephanie:Yep. How do you keep track of everything that's happening under the different brands and the different websites? I mean, how do you make sure any learnings that happen at Birch are maybe transferred over to Helix and over to the furniture line? How do you keep it cohesive when you essentially have now three or four different businesses running?Adam:Yeah. It's hard for sure. I think we're currently operating under a shared services model, so we don't have a team that just does Helix and a team that just does Birch or a team that just does All Form. We're just not there. The other two brands are just not at that scale yet, but so that makes this actually a little bit easier because you have the same people that work in a functional area,, working across all of the brands, but it's certainly challenging, for sure. And we've been able to take a lot of learnings from Helix specifically, which is an older brand. It just has a lot more data. It has more customers on a daily and monthly basis, and leverage those learnings across the other brands, which it's typically in that direction from a [inaudible 00:22:02].Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, there seems like there's a big opportunity to also re-target prior customers because you already know how to talk to them. You've already sold to them before, and then showing them your new furniture line or the pillows or bed frame, even if it's on a different website, you kind of already know how to communicate that to them in a way that has converted in the past.Adam:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the core business case, right? And from a business perspective, we like that because it allows us to acquire a customer, build a lot of good will with that customer, and then sell them more products, right? Obviously, but from a consumer perspective, we also think it adds a lot of value to the customer journey because customers that are in market for things like mattresses tend to be in market for other home good products. Maybe you're moving, maybe you're renovating, maybe you got married, maybe you had a kid. Something is predicating your reason for being in market. And in many cases, if we can sort of create a lot of good will with you and then offer you more products, it's not just good for our business. It's also good for the customer because it makes shopping easier, right? it makes your purchase cycle and shopping and all of that a lot easier. And so that's what we're starting to do now. And where we're excited to move in the future.Stephanie:Okay, cool. So I also saw that you guys, I don't know if you still have showrooms, but you did have some showrooms in New York. And the process was that a customer would come in and they would take the quiz and then they would go to the showroom and maybe hang out for an hour, take a nap, try out the mattress. How has that model changed? And what's going on with maybe not having the ability to bring people into a showroom and try it out?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So we had a showroom in New York. It's obviously been closed for the last nine months. It was a really unique experience because it felt extremely personal, because it was really personal. It almost felt more like you were getting a piece of clothing tailored because you would show up, in many cases you would actually make an appointment in advance. We would have your information. We would actually build the bed for you on the spot. You'd be part of that process. And then you could hang out, test it, et cetera. And we tried to make the experience really, really great. It's unfortunate that we've had to close it. We have plans of moving into a more aggressive thoughts around potentially showrooms or retail units going forward.  Stephanie:And so when thinking about your marketing toolkit, what are some of your favorite channels to get in front of new customers right now?Adam:Yeah, so I think that we approach marketing extremely holistically. We have a very, very diversified marketing approach. Part of the reason for that is we think it just mitigates risk. It's very scary when 80% of your marketing budget is in one single channel, especially if one of those channels is a technology marketplace, or if it's Google or Facebook, and all of a sudden the Google algorithm changes, or Facebook gets rid of a targeted audience and that's it. And that actually happened in the home goods category a few years ago on Facebook.Stephanie:What did they take away?Adam:Yeah, I think it was 2018. They took away, there was a way that Facebook could help identify new movers, and they took that away, and we weren't super hit by it, but I know a lot of home goods brands and a lot of mattress companies, it was overnight, 30% of your ads disappeared, that kind of thing. So we don't do that.Stephanie:That's interesting that we're even talking about new movers because I'm in the process of moving right now and thinking about, "Do I just want to buy a new mattress, so when we get there, it's already set up?" Because it's going to take maybe a week or so to get all my stuff there. That's very smart to target people like me.Adam:Yeah. And so we try to avoid that just being too aggregated in a single channel. And so we're really diversified. The other thing is we operate almost all of our channels in house. It's just really important to us to be internal and holistic about it. So yeah, I mean in terms of channels that we love, it's nothing crazy. We're obviously across all the digital channels, radio, podcast, direct mail, all of those. I think if there is magic, the magic for us is really around thinking through the customer funnel holistically and making sure we understand and attribute accordingly with a pretty diversified marketing stack.Stephanie:Cool. So when thinking about 2021, what kind of trends are you most excited about, or new behaviors that you've seen occurring that you guys are excited about?Adam:Yeah. I think there's a lot. I think obviously just in general, COVID has really accelerated ecommerce adoption in atypical categories. And so I think that's pretty exciting to see where that settles once, hopefully, the world gets back to normal. I think a few areas that we're particularly interested in is there's a lot of movement on payment options and better opportunities for people to pay, which is sort of exciting. Another one is really around blending products and services. So sort of offering services and attaching them to products and using those as ways to better convert customers, and the tools available to do that are pretty interesting.Adam:Yeah, and then just for us, it's really around continuing to personalize our web experience, provide better customer experience, and those types of things. So I think 2021 is going to be a really interesting year. I think it's actually going to be two distinct years in one, the first half and the second half will be just completely different for a lot of businesses. And I actually would encourage anyone that's thinking about either starting a business or budgeting for a business to think about the world that way, you might actually want to have budgets for a beginning of the year plan and a second half of the year plan, because it's just really hard to know where we'll be. I feel confident in knowing where we'll be for the next three to four months, but after that, it's going to be a completely new experience.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. So I want to dig a bit more into, you were just mentioning about merging products and services, and I haven't heard anyone talk about that yet. So I want to hear more, what are you thinking around that? What kind of tools are popping up that you have top of mind?Adam:Yeah, so I think for us, merging products and services, there's a few forms of it. One, which is at its most face value, it's just offering more services as if they were products. So that would be things like white glove delivery, things like old mattress removal, those types of services, which technically aren't really physical products, but they help convert customers into buying your physical products. Perhaps the more interesting areas as it relates to customer experience, and can you empower your customer experience team to provide service as opposed to just being an answer center? Right?Adam:So I think a lot of people view customer experience or customer service as an area where people go and ask questions, but can you be more proactive in providing service, whether that service be design consultation, be helping think through answering questions, or whatever it might be that really activate almost a little bit more a sales channel. I think that that's really interesting as well for us. And then I know a lot of other people are thinking about other types of services they can offer. Obviously, this is just what we're thinking about. But I think that you're going to see a lot more web experiences that are trying to provide a service-like experience to a consumer in addition to a product.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah. And it seems like once some of those services start happening, though, a lot of times, they can become commoditized where then the consumer just starts to expect it. I mean, I'm even thinking about contactless delivery and things like that, where it might cost some businesses extra money to be able to do that, or take a mattress away or whatever it may be. But I think eventually it will become standard, and that businesses need to start planning for, what are the consumers looking for now? And what will eventually have to be absorbed into the margin because it's commoditized?Adam:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that if what you're adding is something that can be easily commoditized, it certainly will be. If what you're adding is differentiated, unique, and valuable, then you should be able to charge for that value, right? It's sort of that simple. And so I think the example I use, white glove delivery, that's not unique to us. We're not the only people that can do that obviously.Adam:And so offering that, perhaps, could be something that becomes table stakes, or something that consumers come to have a level of expectation, but offering really niche opportunities to engage with someone on our CX team to help you through the buying process, that's not a commodity, right? That's something that you can really get to an amazing place through training and through branding and through just the entirety of your ecosystem, in my opinion. And so I definitely agree that some of these things could be monetized, but if you're doing them right, you should be able to, either, it should show up in your financials somewhere, whether it's you can charge more, your conversion rate is better, et cetera.Stephanie:All right. Let's move over to the lightning round, brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Adam?Adam:I hope so.Stephanie:All right. First up, if you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Adam:If I had a podcast, I mean, this is a boring answer right now. It would be on effectively what I was just talking about, which is the future of D to C. And my first guest would probably be Jeff Raider from Harry's.Stephanie:Oh, that's a good one. Awesome. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Adam:I'm about to finish the last episode of Queen's Gambit and I love it. It's really cool. I like it a lot.Stephanie:So good. I like that too, it's awesome. What topic or trend do you not understand today that you wish you did?Adam:I dabbled in high-level cryptocurrency a year and a half ago and I just don't understand it at all. So I wish I knew it better because I think there's opportunity there, but I'm not sure I'm the guy that's going to find it.Stephanie:What's the nicest thing someone's ever done for you?Adam:Wow. The nicest thing someone's ever done for me?Stephanie:I get that response a lot. "Whoa, deep."Adam:Yeah, I mean that's deep. I don't know. I mean, my wife married me. That was pretty nice. I'm pretty happy about that.Stephanie:What a nice lady.Adam:I know, right? What a nice... I guess that the nicest thing... I'll just bring it back to Helix. I don't know if that's a boring answer or not, but we had some pretty awesome early advisers that really didn't need to give the time that they gave, and it was just immensely valuable. So I'll go with that.Stephanie:That's a good one. All right. And then the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Adam:Well, the real answer is COVID and the vaccine, that is the answer. And I think that anyone that tells you it's not macroeconomic facts is lying. From an internal standpoint, I'll go back to something I said earlier. I think that the movement in payment processing is a pretty big deal and not a lot of people are thinking about it, and I think that's going to be a big deal.Stephanie:Yep. Cool. All right, Adam. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Helix?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So come check us out. It's HelixSleep.com for Helix. For Birch, it's BirchLiving.com. And for All Form, the modular sofa brand, it's AllForm.com. Yeah. And that's sort of the best place to check us out and learn more.Stephanie:Awesome. All right. Well, thanks so much and have a great night.Adam:All right. Thank you so much.

Adam: Hi Sarah. Today we're talking about lifestyle options. So my first question would be would you rather live with a roommate or live by yourself?Sarah: This one would definitely depend on who the roommate is. I have lived alone many times and I've also had lots of different roommates, and I found that any roommate that's extroverted does not work well with me. I find that like if I come home and they're there, like I don't want to be there. So I leave again, or I just go in my room, close the door.I think the worst situation was when I lived with my sister. She is very extroverted, and we were working the same types of jobs and spending a lot of time together. When I came home, I just wanted to be alone. And so I would go in my room and she thought that I didn't love her, I didn't want to spend time with her. But really, you know, I just needed my space.So in that case, living alone is better. But if I have someone who is more similar in personality to me, then it works well to have a roommate. I currently have a roommate and we get along really well because we have similar temperaments. And so, yeah, it works well for us.Adam: So would you say that opposites don't attract?Sarah: When it comes to living together, absolutely not.Adam: Hmm. How about your living situation in terms of a house or an apartment, which one would you prefer?Sarah: Definitely an apartment because to me a house seems permanent. And I love change. So I also move a lot. I have moved to a new place every two years or less for like the past 12 years of my life. So the thought of having a house and being stuck in one place doesn't really appeal to me.Adam: I can understand that. This apartment of yours, would you prefer it to be in the city or in the countryside?Sarah: I would naturally say city, but ironically, most of the places I have lived have been more countryside or rural because that's where I found work. But in the future, I think I would like to live in a larger city.Adam: Any cities in mind?Sarah: Not right now. I'm still trying to decide about what country I want to move to next.Adam: How about this apartment of yours in the city, would it be furnished or unfurnished?Sarah: Interesting you ask that, because the apartment I'm currently in is unfurnished. And when I moved here, it was really complicated to try to furnish it because I live on the fifth floor and there is no elevator. And it became quickly very problematic when I moved in trying to get things.But when I was coming, the apartment agency that I was dealing with told me that there weren't any furnished apartments in the area where I lived. So I thought it was the only option when really it wasn't.Adam: Yeah, the fifth floor, you must have got some good exercise carrying all that stuff up there.Sarah: Definitely.Adam: How do you feel about pets?Sarah: I love animals. I would love to have a dog or a rabbit. When I lived in China, I had a rabbit. But it's just not practicalfor my life because I live overseas and I go back and forth between the States visiting family. And it's just not practical to have one. So maybe one day if I ever settle down.Adam: A dog, a rabbit?Sarah: Probably a dog. Dog would be first option definitely, a Dachshund. My favorite animal is Dachshund.Adam: Those are cute.Sarah: Yeah.

Adam: Hi Sarah. Today we're talking about lifestyle options. So my first question would be would you rather live with a roommate or live by yourself?Sarah: This one would definitely depend on who the roommate is. I have lived alone many times and I've also had lots of different roommates, and I found that any roommate that's extroverted does not work well with me. I find that like if I come home and they're there, like I don't want to be there. So I leave again, or I just go in my room, close the door.I think the worst situation was when I lived with my sister. She is very extroverted, and we were working the same types of jobs and spending a lot of time together. When I came home, I just wanted to be alone. And so I would go in my room and she thought that I didn't love her, I didn't want to spend time with her. But really, you know, I just needed my space.So in that case, living alone is better. But if I have someone who is more similar in personality to me, then it works well to have a roommate. I currently have a roommate and we get along really well because we have similar temperaments. And so, yeah, it works well for us.Adam: So would you say that opposites don't attract?Sarah: When it comes to living together, absolutely not.Adam: Hmm. How about your living situation in terms of a house or an apartment, which one would you prefer?Sarah: Definitely an apartment because to me a house seems permanent. And I love change. So I also move a lot. I have moved to a new place every two years or less for like the past 12 years of my life. So the thought of having a house and being stuck in one place doesn't really appeal to me.Adam: I can understand that. This apartment of yours, would you prefer it to be in the city or in the countryside?Sarah: I would naturally say city, but ironically, most of the places I have lived have been more countryside or rural because that's where I found work. But in the future, I think I would like to live in a larger city.Adam: Any cities in mind?Sarah: Not right now. I'm still trying to decide about what country I want to move to next.Adam: How about this apartment of yours in the city, would it be furnished or unfurnished?Sarah: Interesting you ask that, because the apartment I'm currently in is unfurnished. And when I moved here, it was really complicated to try to furnish it because I live on the fifth floor and there is no elevator. And it became quickly very problematic when I moved in trying to get things.But when I was coming, the apartment agency that I was dealing with told me that there weren't any furnished apartments in the area where I lived. So I thought it was the only option when really it wasn't.Adam: Yeah, the fifth floor, you must have got some good exercise carrying all that stuff up there.Sarah: Definitely.Adam: How do you feel about pets?Sarah: I love animals. I would love to have a dog or a rabbit. When I lived in China, I had a rabbit. But it's just not practicalfor my life because I live overseas and I go back and forth between the States visiting family. And it's just not practical to have one. So maybe one day if I ever settle down.Adam: A dog, a rabbit?Sarah: Probably a dog. Dog would be first option definitely, a Dachshund. My favorite animal is Dachshund.Adam: Those are cute.Sarah: Yeah.

Adam: Hi Sarah. Today we're talking about lifestyle options. So my first question would be would you rather live with a roommate or live by yourself?Sarah: This one would definitely depend on who the roommate is. I have lived alone many times and I've also had lots of different roommates, and I found that any roommate that's extroverted does not work well with me. I find that like if I come home and they're there, like I don't want to be there. So I leave again, or I just go in my room, close the door.I think the worst situation was when I lived with my sister. She is very extroverted, and we were working the same types of jobs and spending a lot of time together. When I came home, I just wanted to be alone. And so I would go in my room and she thought that I didn't love her, I didn't want to spend time with her. But really, you know, I just needed my space.So in that case, living alone is better. But if I have someone who is more similar in personality to me, then it works well to have a roommate. I currently have a roommate and we get along really well because we have similar temperaments. And so, yeah, it works well for us.Adam: So would you say that opposites don't attract?Sarah: When it comes to living together, absolutely not.Adam: Hmm. How about your living situation in terms of a house or an apartment, which one would you prefer?Sarah: Definitely an apartment because to me a house seems permanent. And I love change. So I also move a lot. I have moved to a new place every two years or less for like the past 12 years of my life. So the thought of having a house and being stuck in one place doesn't really appeal to me.Adam: I can understand that. This apartment of yours, would you prefer it to be in the city or in the countryside?Sarah: I would naturally say city, but ironically, most of the places I have lived have been more countryside or rural because that's where I found work. But in the future, I think I would like to live in a larger city.Adam: Any cities in mind?Sarah: Not right now. I'm still trying to decide about what country I want to move to next.Adam: How about this apartment of yours in the city, would it be furnished or unfurnished?Sarah: Interesting you ask that, because the apartment I'm currently in is unfurnished. And when I moved here, it was really complicated to try to furnish it because I live on the fifth floor and there is no elevator. And it became quickly very problematic when I moved in trying to get things.But when I was coming, the apartment agency that I was dealing with told me that there weren't any furnished apartments in the area where I lived. So I thought it was the only option when really it wasn't.Adam: Yeah, the fifth floor, you must have got some good exercise carrying all that stuff up there.Sarah: Definitely.Adam: How do you feel about pets?Sarah: I love animals. I would love to have a dog or a rabbit. When I lived in China, I had a rabbit. But it's just not practicalfor my life because I live overseas and I go back and forth between the States visiting family. And it's just not practical to have one. So maybe one day if I ever settle down.Adam: A dog, a rabbit?Sarah: Probably a dog. Dog would be first option definitely, a Dachshund. My favorite animal is Dachshund.Adam: Those are cute.Sarah: Yeah.

Sarah: So Adam, how old were you when you got your first job?Adam: I was 16 but actually my dad tried to get me to work at Baskin & Robbins when I was 15. And the manager wouldn't hire me because I was under legal working age in the States.Adam: How old are you when you first started working?Sarah: I started working when I was 14. I'm from North Carolina in the States. And there, you are legally able to work at the age of 14. So I worked as a DJ. My father owns a radio station, so I became a DJ at age 14.Adam: That's amazing. What sort of things did you talk about as a DJ?Sarah: It was mainly a programming situation, an AM radio station. So I don't have to talk much. It was mainly just operating the board. And a few commercials, and weather and things like that I would have to talk. But mostly, it was just pressing buttons.Adam: Did you play any music?Sarah: Yeah. Some music, depending on the time of day.Adam: Could you play what you wanted or did you have to follow a script?Sarah: No, you have a follow a format pretty much, so. So what's been the most interesting or exciting job you've ever had?Adam: I worked at an airport fueling airplanes when I was in college. And I drove a fuel truck around the tarmac and fueled airplanes, big commercial airplanes like 747s and also small private prop planes just with two passengers. That was a really interesting, interesting job.Sarah: It sounds kind of slightly dangerous or maybe a lot of responsibility. Was it?Adam: Yeah. If you – because you're driving this large truck around very, very expensive planes, so a lot of responsibility. It wasn't so much dangerous, I don't think. But yeah, it was definitely – if you made an error or had an accident, it would be a big accident.It was – the hours were not very good. I had to wake up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the airport at 5:00. And when I went home I would smell just of gasoline. But it was quite an interesting and kind of exciting job.Sarah: Nice.Adam: Yeah. How about you? What's your most interesting job?Sarah: Most interesting, I guess, for me was I was hired by a car company one time to go and do like test drive demonstrations on like different cities around the US. And I had to, like, ride around with people doing the test drive and tell them about the vehicles, which was interesting because I really know nothing about cars. So I had to memorize a lot of information. But it was fun getting to go to different cities in the US every weekend.Adam: Wow, cool. What car company did you do this for?Sarah: I did that for Kia but I've also worked for Hummer, and Ferrari and BMW.Adam: Wow. That's amazing. Were those separate contracts for Ferrari, Hummer and BMW?Sarah: Yeah. For those, I didn't do test drives. I was, what's called a promotional model or a brand ambassador. So the companies hire local people when they're an event in a certain area. And most of the time, you're just getting people to fill out surveys or do some kind of prize drawing. But in the case of Kia, it was actually doing test drives.Adam: Did you get any free merchandise or vehicles from any of these?Sarah: I wish I got a free vehicle, but no, just the t-shirt or whatever outfit you had to wear for the promotion.Adam: Yeah, that's sounds really interesting. I love cars, so I'd love to do something like that.

Sarah: So Adam, how old were you when you got your first job?Adam: I was 16 but actually my dad tried to get me to work at Baskin & Robbins when I was 15. And the manager wouldn't hire me because I was under legal working age in the States.Adam: How old are you when you first started working?Sarah: I started working when I was 14. I'm from North Carolina in the States. And there, you are legally able to work at the age of 14. So I worked as a DJ. My father owns a radio station, so I became a DJ at age 14.Adam: That's amazing. What sort of things did you talk about as a DJ?Sarah: It was mainly a programming situation, an AM radio station. So I don't have to talk much. It was mainly just operating the board. And a few commercials, and weather and things like that I would have to talk. But mostly, it was just pressing buttons.Adam: Did you play any music?Sarah: Yeah. Some music, depending on the time of day.Adam: Could you play what you wanted or did you have to follow a script?Sarah: No, you have a follow a format pretty much, so. So what's been the most interesting or exciting job you've ever had?Adam: I worked at an airport fueling airplanes when I was in college. And I drove a fuel truck around the tarmac and fueled airplanes, big commercial airplanes like 747s and also small private prop planes just with two passengers. That was a really interesting, interesting job.Sarah: It sounds kind of slightly dangerous or maybe a lot of responsibility. Was it?Adam: Yeah. If you – because you're driving this large truck around very, very expensive planes, so a lot of responsibility. It wasn't so much dangerous, I don't think. But yeah, it was definitely – if you made an error or had an accident, it would be a big accident.It was – the hours were not very good. I had to wake up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the airport at 5:00. And when I went home I would smell just of gasoline. But it was quite an interesting and kind of exciting job.Sarah: Nice.Adam: Yeah. How about you? What's your most interesting job?Sarah: Most interesting, I guess, for me was I was hired by a car company one time to go and do like test drive demonstrations on like different cities around the US. And I had to, like, ride around with people doing the test drive and tell them about the vehicles, which was interesting because I really know nothing about cars. So I had to memorize a lot of information. But it was fun getting to go to different cities in the US every weekend.Adam: Wow, cool. What car company did you do this for?Sarah: I did that for Kia but I've also worked for Hummer, and Ferrari and BMW.Adam: Wow. That's amazing. Were those separate contracts for Ferrari, Hummer and BMW?Sarah: Yeah. For those, I didn't do test drives. I was, what's called a promotional model or a brand ambassador. So the companies hire local people when they're an event in a certain area. And most of the time, you're just getting people to fill out surveys or do some kind of prize drawing. But in the case of Kia, it was actually doing test drives.Adam: Did you get any free merchandise or vehicles from any of these?Sarah: I wish I got a free vehicle, but no, just the t-shirt or whatever outfit you had to wear for the promotion.Adam: Yeah, that's sounds really interesting. I love cars, so I'd love to do something like that.

Sarah: So Adam, how old were you when you got your first job?Adam: I was 16 but actually my dad tried to get me to work at Baskin & Robbins when I was 15. And the manager wouldn't hire me because I was under legal working age in the States.Adam: How old are you when you first started working?Sarah: I started working when I was 14. I'm from North Carolina in the States. And there, you are legally able to work at the age of 14. So I worked as a DJ. My father owns a radio station, so I became a DJ at age 14.Adam: That's amazing. What sort of things did you talk about as a DJ?Sarah: It was mainly a programming situation, an AM radio station. So I don't have to talk much. It was mainly just operating the board. And a few commercials, and weather and things like that I would have to talk. But mostly, it was just pressing buttons.Adam: Did you play any music?Sarah: Yeah. Some music, depending on the time of day.Adam: Could you play what you wanted or did you have to follow a script?Sarah: No, you have a follow a format pretty much, so. So what's been the most interesting or exciting job you've ever had?Adam: I worked at an airport fueling airplanes when I was in college. And I drove a fuel truck around the tarmac and fueled airplanes, big commercial airplanes like 747s and also small private prop planes just with two passengers. That was a really interesting, interesting job.Sarah: It sounds kind of slightly dangerous or maybe a lot of responsibility. Was it?Adam: Yeah. If you – because you're driving this large truck around very, very expensive planes, so a lot of responsibility. It wasn't so much dangerous, I don't think. But yeah, it was definitely – if you made an error or had an accident, it would be a big accident.It was – the hours were not very good. I had to wake up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the airport at 5:00. And when I went home I would smell just of gasoline. But it was quite an interesting and kind of exciting job.Sarah: Nice.Adam: Yeah. How about you? What's your most interesting job?Sarah: Most interesting, I guess, for me was I was hired by a car company one time to go and do like test drive demonstrations on like different cities around the US. And I had to, like, ride around with people doing the test drive and tell them about the vehicles, which was interesting because I really know nothing about cars. So I had to memorize a lot of information. But it was fun getting to go to different cities in the US every weekend.Adam: Wow, cool. What car company did you do this for?Sarah: I did that for Kia but I've also worked for Hummer, and Ferrari and BMW.Adam: Wow. That's amazing. Were those separate contracts for Ferrari, Hummer and BMW?Sarah: Yeah. For those, I didn't do test drives. I was, what's called a promotional model or a brand ambassador. So the companies hire local people when they're an event in a certain area. And most of the time, you're just getting people to fill out surveys or do some kind of prize drawing. But in the case of Kia, it was actually doing test drives.Adam: Did you get any free merchandise or vehicles from any of these?Sarah: I wish I got a free vehicle, but no, just the t-shirt or whatever outfit you had to wear for the promotion.Adam: Yeah, that's sounds really interesting. I love cars, so I'd love to do something like that.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about bucket list. Things you want to do before you die. Do you have anything?Sarah: Actually, no. I don't have a bucket list. And the reason why is because I've already done or I'm currently doing the things that I want to do. In addition, I like to live in the now, so like the present, like what's happening. So I really don't think of the distant futurevery much, just like what's in front of me.For example, I'm going to Singapore soon, in about 10 days. And I'm really looking forward to that and the new adventure and things that I'll get to do there.Adam: What sort of things do you have in mind to explore in Singapore?Sarah: First of all, swing dancing. My favorite kind of dance currently is Lindy hop swing dancing. And Singapore is one of the places in Asia that has several swing dance meet-up groups. So I look forward to dancing several of the nights while I'm there, but also trying all of the delicious food and just exploring a country that I've never been to.Adam: Wow, great. What are some of the things that you have wanted to do in the past that you have accomplished already?Sarah: I think living in foreign countries. I've already lived in two foreign countries and I plan on living in foreign countries probably the rest of my life. So that's a big one. And I think just everyday things, like finishing college and getting two master's degrees and being able to support myself. It's all things that are important to me.Adam: Yeah. Those are really great things. What are your two degrees in?Sarah: My first degree is in teaching English to speakers of other languages. This degree allows me to be able to live in other countries and to teach English. And then my other degree is in global studies. So it's like an inter-cultural degree where I learned about different cultures and religions.Adam: That's really great. Have you ever eaten anything exotic or had any really interesting experiences that most people might not have had when you're traveling to these different places and fulfilling your goals?Sarah: I've definitely eaten a lot of different things, most of which I'm not really sure what a lot of it was. The strangest probably – jellyfish, maybe. I'd also gotten a chance to ride a lot of different animals. I've ridden a camel, donkey, horse, elephant, and even an ostrich. So that's pretty exciting.Adam: Yeah. That's really interesting. Have you done any other extreme activities?Sarah: Yeah. I've been skydiving before. I've been volcano boarding. I'm trying to think what else I have done. I haven't been bungee jumping. I think that's probably one of the only ones that I haven't done as of right now. But I really have no desire to do that one, so.Adam: Wow. That's great. You've lived a good life.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about bucket list. Things you want to do before you die. Do you have anything?Sarah: Actually, no. I don't have a bucket list. And the reason why is because I've already done or I'm currently doing the things that I want to do. In addition, I like to live in the now, so like the present, like what's happening. So I really don't think of the distant futurevery much, just like what's in front of me.For example, I'm going to Singapore soon, in about 10 days. And I'm really looking forward to that and the new adventure and things that I'll get to do there.Adam: What sort of things do you have in mind to explore in Singapore?Sarah: First of all, swing dancing. My favorite kind of dance currently is Lindy hop swing dancing. And Singapore is one of the places in Asia that has several swing dance meet-up groups. So I look forward to dancing several of the nights while I'm there, but also trying all of the delicious food and just exploring a country that I've never been to.Adam: Wow, great. What are some of the things that you have wanted to do in the past that you have accomplished already?Sarah: I think living in foreign countries. I've already lived in two foreign countries and I plan on living in foreign countries probably the rest of my life. So that's a big one. And I think just everyday things, like finishing college and getting two master's degrees and being able to support myself. It's all things that are important to me.Adam: Yeah. Those are really great things. What are your two degrees in?Sarah: My first degree is in teaching English to speakers of other languages. This degree allows me to be able to live in other countries and to teach English. And then my other degree is in global studies. So it's like an inter-cultural degree where I learned about different cultures and religions.Adam: That's really great. Have you ever eaten anything exotic or had any really interesting experiences that most people might not have had when you're traveling to these different places and fulfilling your goals?Sarah: I've definitely eaten a lot of different things, most of which I'm not really sure what a lot of it was. The strangest probably – jellyfish, maybe. I'd also gotten a chance to ride a lot of different animals. I've ridden a camel, donkey, horse, elephant, and even an ostrich. So that's pretty exciting.Adam: Yeah. That's really interesting. Have you done any other extreme activities?Sarah: Yeah. I've been skydiving before. I've been volcano boarding. I'm trying to think what else I have done. I haven't been bungee jumping. I think that's probably one of the only ones that I haven't done as of right now. But I really have no desire to do that one, so.Adam: Wow. That's great. You've lived a good life.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about bucket list. Things you want to do before you die. Do you have anything?Sarah: Actually, no. I don't have a bucket list. And the reason why is because I've already done or I'm currently doing the things that I want to do. In addition, I like to live in the now, so like the present, like what's happening. So I really don't think of the distant futurevery much, just like what's in front of me.For example, I'm going to Singapore soon, in about 10 days. And I'm really looking forward to that and the new adventure and things that I'll get to do there.Adam: What sort of things do you have in mind to explore in Singapore?Sarah: First of all, swing dancing. My favorite kind of dance currently is Lindy hop swing dancing. And Singapore is one of the places in Asia that has several swing dance meet-up groups. So I look forward to dancing several of the nights while I'm there, but also trying all of the delicious food and just exploring a country that I've never been to.Adam: Wow, great. What are some of the things that you have wanted to do in the past that you have accomplished already?Sarah: I think living in foreign countries. I've already lived in two foreign countries and I plan on living in foreign countries probably the rest of my life. So that's a big one. And I think just everyday things, like finishing college and getting two master's degrees and being able to support myself. It's all things that are important to me.Adam: Yeah. Those are really great things. What are your two degrees in?Sarah: My first degree is in teaching English to speakers of other languages. This degree allows me to be able to live in other countries and to teach English. And then my other degree is in global studies. So it's like an inter-cultural degree where I learned about different cultures and religions.Adam: That's really great. Have you ever eaten anything exotic or had any really interesting experiences that most people might not have had when you're traveling to these different places and fulfilling your goals?Sarah: I've definitely eaten a lot of different things, most of which I'm not really sure what a lot of it was. The strangest probably – jellyfish, maybe. I'd also gotten a chance to ride a lot of different animals. I've ridden a camel, donkey, horse, elephant, and even an ostrich. So that's pretty exciting.Adam: Yeah. That's really interesting. Have you done any other extreme activities?Sarah: Yeah. I've been skydiving before. I've been volcano boarding. I'm trying to think what else I have done. I haven't been bungee jumping. I think that's probably one of the only ones that I haven't done as of right now. But I really have no desire to do that one, so.Adam: Wow. That's great. You've lived a good life.

Sarah: So Adam, we're talking about bucket lists, so things that you would like to do before you die. So what's your number one thing on your bucket list?Adam: Oh, difficult question. Number one, I'd probably have to say, oh, skydiving maybe. I've wanted to do it for a long time. And I went bungee jumping in New Zealand. That was fun but I still have not yet been sky-diving. And jumping out of the plane just sounds like an awesome idea to me.Sarah: What other kind of adventure sports have you done?Adam: This summer, I was – what did I do? Sand boarding in Peru. That was fun. When I was younger I did a lot of snowboarding and skateboarding. And yeah, I really enjoy extreme sports. I ride a motorcycle currently. If I could I'd love to race cars professionally, although I don't know how good I'd be at it. But it just looks like so much fun.Sarah: Yeah. Well, it's never too late to start something you want to do, so you should add that to your bucket list. So tell me what else is on your bucket list?Adam: I really want to write a book. Be the author of a novel. I'm always in the process of writing something down but it never seems to come to complete book type end result. But maybe eventually, all of these little things that I have written down will come into a book form and I can publish it and complete my goal.Sarah: What kind of things do you write? Like what kind of genre or is that kind of all the same or do you write many different styles?Adam: I wrote a lot of different things. One thing that I write is travel stories from my travels abroad or anecdotes that I come across when I'm traveling. Recently, I've been writing jokes. I really enjoy watching stand-up comedy and have got kind of inspired from them to write some stuff down, although I've never really presented it.And I also write, I guess, fantasy stories as well. I have a few short stories but it's been difficult for me to try to put them into book, like a longer version of them. The details are tricky to write down.Sarah: Wow! That's really interesting. Hopefully, one day, we'll be able to read a book written by you.Adam: Yeah. That'd be great.Sarah: Yeah. So tell me what else is on your list?Adam: The other things would be traveling to Europe, which I plan to do hopefully next summer, so I can cross that one off the list. I've always wanted to go to Europe especially Italy and Spain. So I'm excited to get that one done.And I'd also really like to go to Africa and go on a safari and see, you know, lions, tigers in the wild, in their natural habitat. I've also heard that you could see sharks, Great White sharks in South Africa on the coast. I had some friends that went and sat in a cage in the water and had Great White swim by. That sounds like a terrifying and once-in-a-lifetime experience. I'm terrified of sharks but it would be quite amazing to see.Sarah: Yeah. I am terrified of sharks as well, so I probably will not be adding that to my bucket list. But yeah, I hope you get to do everything that's on your list there.Adam: Thanks. Me too!

Sarah: So Adam, we're talking about bucket lists, so things that you would like to do before you die. So what's your number one thing on your bucket list?Adam: Oh, difficult question. Number one, I'd probably have to say, oh, skydiving maybe. I've wanted to do it for a long time. And I went bungee jumping in New Zealand. That was fun but I still have not yet been sky-diving. And jumping out of the plane just sounds like an awesome idea to me.Sarah: What other kind of adventure sports have you done?Adam: This summer, I was – what did I do? Sand boarding in Peru. That was fun. When I was younger I did a lot of snowboarding and skateboarding. And yeah, I really enjoy extreme sports. I ride a motorcycle currently. If I could I'd love to race cars professionally, although I don't know how good I'd be at it. But it just looks like so much fun.Sarah: Yeah. Well, it's never too late to start something you want to do, so you should add that to your bucket list. So tell me what else is on your bucket list?Adam: I really want to write a book. Be the author of a novel. I'm always in the process of writing something down but it never seems to come to complete book type end result. But maybe eventually, all of these little things that I have written down will come into a book form and I can publish it and complete my goal.Sarah: What kind of things do you write? Like what kind of genre or is that kind of all the same or do you write many different styles?Adam: I wrote a lot of different things. One thing that I write is travel stories from my travels abroad or anecdotes that I come across when I'm traveling. Recently, I've been writing jokes. I really enjoy watching stand-up comedy and have got kind of inspired from them to write some stuff down, although I've never really presented it.And I also write, I guess, fantasy stories as well. I have a few short stories but it's been difficult for me to try to put them into book, like a longer version of them. The details are tricky to write down.Sarah: Wow! That's really interesting. Hopefully, one day, we'll be able to read a book written by you.Adam: Yeah. That'd be great.Sarah: Yeah. So tell me what else is on your list?Adam: The other things would be traveling to Europe, which I plan to do hopefully next summer, so I can cross that one off the list. I've always wanted to go to Europe especially Italy and Spain. So I'm excited to get that one done.And I'd also really like to go to Africa and go on a safari and see, you know, lions, tigers in the wild, in their natural habitat. I've also heard that you could see sharks, Great White sharks in South Africa on the coast. I had some friends that went and sat in a cage in the water and had Great White swim by. That sounds like a terrifying and once-in-a-lifetime experience. I'm terrified of sharks but it would be quite amazing to see.Sarah: Yeah. I am terrified of sharks as well, so I probably will not be adding that to my bucket list. But yeah, I hope you get to do everything that's on your list there.Adam: Thanks. Me too!

Sarah: So Adam, we're talking about bucket lists, so things that you would like to do before you die. So what's your number one thing on your bucket list?Adam: Oh, difficult question. Number one, I'd probably have to say, oh, skydiving maybe. I've wanted to do it for a long time. And I went bungee jumping in New Zealand. That was fun but I still have not yet been sky-diving. And jumping out of the plane just sounds like an awesome idea to me.Sarah: What other kind of adventure sports have you done?Adam: This summer, I was – what did I do? Sand boarding in Peru. That was fun. When I was younger I did a lot of snowboarding and skateboarding. And yeah, I really enjoy extreme sports. I ride a motorcycle currently. If I could I'd love to race cars professionally, although I don't know how good I'd be at it. But it just looks like so much fun.Sarah: Yeah. Well, it's never too late to start something you want to do, so you should add that to your bucket list. So tell me what else is on your bucket list?Adam: I really want to write a book. Be the author of a novel. I'm always in the process of writing something down but it never seems to come to complete book type end result. But maybe eventually, all of these little things that I have written down will come into a book form and I can publish it and complete my goal.Sarah: What kind of things do you write? Like what kind of genre or is that kind of all the same or do you write many different styles?Adam: I wrote a lot of different things. One thing that I write is travel stories from my travels abroad or anecdotes that I come across when I'm traveling. Recently, I've been writing jokes. I really enjoy watching stand-up comedy and have got kind of inspired from them to write some stuff down, although I've never really presented it.And I also write, I guess, fantasy stories as well. I have a few short stories but it's been difficult for me to try to put them into book, like a longer version of them. The details are tricky to write down.Sarah: Wow! That's really interesting. Hopefully, one day, we'll be able to read a book written by you.Adam: Yeah. That'd be great.Sarah: Yeah. So tell me what else is on your list?Adam: The other things would be traveling to Europe, which I plan to do hopefully next summer, so I can cross that one off the list. I've always wanted to go to Europe especially Italy and Spain. So I'm excited to get that one done.And I'd also really like to go to Africa and go on a safari and see, you know, lions, tigers in the wild, in their natural habitat. I've also heard that you could see sharks, Great White sharks in South Africa on the coast. I had some friends that went and sat in a cage in the water and had Great White swim by. That sounds like a terrifying and once-in-a-lifetime experience. I'm terrified of sharks but it would be quite amazing to see.Sarah: Yeah. I am terrified of sharks as well, so I probably will not be adding that to my bucket list. But yeah, I hope you get to do everything that's on your list there.Adam: Thanks. Me too!

Sarah: So Adam, today we're talking about do-overs. So what is something that you wish you would have done over? For example, maybe something in your university life?Adam: Yeah. There are a few things. I might change my major. I studied education, and while I enjoy what I'm doing right now, my free time I really like watching movies about science and astronomy. And if I would go back to school and start my studies over, I'd probably study something along those lines, astronomy and metaphysics or something.I think that those topics are really interesting and on the cutting edge of science and just fascinating to explore.Sarah: Interesting. Anything else you wish you would have done?Adam: I might have been more involved in the sports clubs at my school. For example, the American football team. I played in high school but in college, I wanted to play but I didn't have the motivation to push me over the edge to actually go out and really put my heart into it.I went to one training day and kind of tried out, but I didn't really pursue it as much as I would have liked. I think it would have been fun to be a part of that culture and that environment.Sarah: How about something that you did do that maybe now you wish you hadn't?Adam: I pierced my ears in high school because that was the cool thing to do. But now I don't wear earrings. And yeah, looking back on it, kind of just a silly thing to do that I'm trying to follow the trends, that, you know, trends usually pass.So yeah, that would be something that I wouldn't do again.Sarah: Nice. Anything else you would have changed?Adam: I might have made different decisions about my girlfriends at the time. I had a really good girlfriend in the beginning of college, and things didn't work out because of a variety of reasons. But I think if we would have worked on it, we could have. We could have made it, made it happen. So yeah, that's something I think about sometimes about life in college.It's always, you know, college love is kind of a crazy thing. So yeah, we're too much like kids, I guess, I think at that age.Sarah: Okay. Thanks, Adam.

Sarah: So Adam, today we're talking about do-overs. So what is something that you wish you would have done over? For example, maybe something in your university life?Adam: Yeah. There are a few things. I might change my major. I studied education, and while I enjoy what I'm doing right now, my free time I really like watching movies about science and astronomy. And if I would go back to school and start my studies over, I'd probably study something along those lines, astronomy and metaphysics or something.I think that those topics are really interesting and on the cutting edge of science and just fascinating to explore.Sarah: Interesting. Anything else you wish you would have done?Adam: I might have been more involved in the sports clubs at my school. For example, the American football team. I played in high school but in college, I wanted to play but I didn't have the motivation to push me over the edge to actually go out and really put my heart into it.I went to one training day and kind of tried out, but I didn't really pursue it as much as I would have liked. I think it would have been fun to be a part of that culture and that environment.Sarah: How about something that you did do that maybe now you wish you hadn't?Adam: I pierced my ears in high school because that was the cool thing to do. But now I don't wear earrings. And yeah, looking back on it, kind of just a silly thing to do that I'm trying to follow the trends, that, you know, trends usually pass.So yeah, that would be something that I wouldn't do again.Sarah: Nice. Anything else you would have changed?Adam: I might have made different decisions about my girlfriends at the time. I had a really good girlfriend in the beginning of college, and things didn't work out because of a variety of reasons. But I think if we would have worked on it, we could have. We could have made it, made it happen. So yeah, that's something I think about sometimes about life in college.It's always, you know, college love is kind of a crazy thing. So yeah, we're too much like kids, I guess, I think at that age.Sarah: Okay. Thanks, Adam.

Sarah: So Adam, today we're talking about do-overs. So what is something that you wish you would have done over? For example, maybe something in your university life?Adam: Yeah. There are a few things. I might change my major. I studied education, and while I enjoy what I'm doing right now, my free time I really like watching movies about science and astronomy. And if I would go back to school and start my studies over, I'd probably study something along those lines, astronomy and metaphysics or something.I think that those topics are really interesting and on the cutting edge of science and just fascinating to explore.Sarah: Interesting. Anything else you wish you would have done?Adam: I might have been more involved in the sports clubs at my school. For example, the American football team. I played in high school but in college, I wanted to play but I didn't have the motivation to push me over the edge to actually go out and really put my heart into it.I went to one training day and kind of tried out, but I didn't really pursue it as much as I would have liked. I think it would have been fun to be a part of that culture and that environment.Sarah: How about something that you did do that maybe now you wish you hadn't?Adam: I pierced my ears in high school because that was the cool thing to do. But now I don't wear earrings. And yeah, looking back on it, kind of just a silly thing to do that I'm trying to follow the trends, that, you know, trends usually pass.So yeah, that would be something that I wouldn't do again.Sarah: Nice. Anything else you would have changed?Adam: I might have made different decisions about my girlfriends at the time. I had a really good girlfriend in the beginning of college, and things didn't work out because of a variety of reasons. But I think if we would have worked on it, we could have. We could have made it, made it happen. So yeah, that's something I think about sometimes about life in college.It's always, you know, college love is kind of a crazy thing. So yeah, we're too much like kids, I guess, I think at that age.Sarah: Okay. Thanks, Adam.

This is the last week Marketing BS will be 100% free. Starting Monday if you want the full Marketing BS experience you will need to subscribe. You can do that here. Subscribers get a weekly essay, weekly briefing and a two-part podcast interview (and more). Free subscribers receive one piece of content from the week every Friday. Subscriptions are half price until Friday.Adam was the co-founder of UrbanSpoon, Dwelable and now FreshChalk. He comes from an engineering background, but he has done some incredible marketing to grow his businesses. This is a dive into some of those strategies and tactics he used at FreshChalk. Some highlights:* How FreshChalk solves the problems of Yelp/AngiesList/HomeAdvisor* How Adam thinks about building two-sided marketplaces* How SEO has changed, and how he does it now* How to engage small businesses (who usually don't have time for “marketing services”)Subscribe to the podcast: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. Private Feed.TranscriptEdward: This is part two of my interview with Adam Doppelt. Today, we're going to dive into his experience as founder of Fresh Chalk.Adam, could you start by explaining what Fresh Chalk is?Adam: To start up the Genesis story is always interesting. That's always the interesting part to me.For one of my prior companies, I had to move to Austin and it was one of those weird situations that probably nobody ever goes through, except for a couple of lucky or unlucky individuals. I had to move to Austin with a couple of weeks' notice, including my family, my wife, and my three kids, and my dog. One of those kids was actually a six-month-old at the time. It's very traumatic to have to move to a new place like that. We were settled in Seattle, we'd been here for a long time. It's great that we sold the company, but we were not super excited about moving to Austin.Our opinion changed once we've been there for a while, but the idea of packing up and leaving Seattle was very difficult for us. We arrived in Austin and we immediately bought a house right away within a couple of weeks, and I got a car and we moved in. We had to acquire a bunch of furniture on no notice. I had an intense need for professionals. I needed a house cleaner and a babysitter and an arborist to look after the trees. It wasn't a particularly nice house, but you're in Austin, there are trees everywhere. I also needed people in specialties that I had never even dealt with before. I needed a termite person and I needed a garage door guy. We needed all kinds of things.I worked quite closely with this team at HomeAway and I started asking them for recommendations. Does anybody have a good termite person? Does anyone have a realtor? Does anybody know a good arborist, a plumber, an electrician, a handy person? The list kind of went on and on and on and I amassed pretty quickly this little spreadsheet of recommendations of what I thought were the best people that have been recommended to me by my new co-workers at HomeAway.A funny thing happened, when I had that spreadsheet as part of the acquisition, a handful of people had moved down to Austin as part of the deal, and they started asking me if they could look at it. They said oh Adam, I know you care about these things. You built up this spreadsheet of these professionals. I need that stuff, too. I just moved here. I need a cleaning person. I need a babysitter. I need a handyman. Can I just look at your spreadsheet? At the time, I was very focused on vacation rentals. I didn't think much about it. But then when I was trying to figure out what to do next, I remembered that experience. I thought, there's probably something here after years of looking on Yelp and Angie's list and Googling for the best electrician in Seattle.That is a very annoying and difficult and unreliable process, I might say. I'd much rather have recommendations from friends. That simple idea turned into Fresh Chalk, which is recommendations for local professionals from your friends. I was very focused on home improvement. I thought home improvement is where it's at. That's the sweet spot for me. But as we talked to potential users of our products—consumers—we quickly realized that there were equal opportunities in beauty and wellness, and health, and healthcare, financial services.All of these things turned out to be really fruitful. As much as I needed a plumber, if you need your eyebrows waxed, your needs are just as intense. We built this product we're making. I would say great progress with it and people love it.Edward: Talk more about how it's different from Yelp. Because can't I go on Yelp and see how people recommend hairdressers and eyebrow cleaners and plumbers, and can't I even see if my friends recommended those things on Yelp?.Adam: To some extent, you can do that. You can look at Yelp and you can get recommendations. They're not going to be from your friends. I've never seen a friend's recommendation on Yelp. The reason is because there's no social experience on Yelp. It's a lot of strangers recommending things. I can say from my experience at Urbanspoon and after that at Dwelable, a lot of those reviews are fake.The best way to get great reviews for your business is to ask your friends and family to write great reviews of your business. A lot of those reviews are really not to be trusted. I think that's a problem with Yelp. That's a problem on Google My Business, which is what you see when you're Googling for businesses. I think to a lesser extent on Angie's list because Angie's list had a lot more validation of their reviews. But reviews, whether they're from strangers—trusted or not—are not going to be as good as reviews from friends.When you want a real recommendation, what do you do? You pick up your phone and you text your buddy. If you're considering a remodel, you want to talk to your friend who just went through a remodel. That's always the best place to get that information. The other thing I've learned is that I have a real love for the story. I think maybe even you and I have talked about this before. When you told me about your house, I wanted to hear all about it. I wanted to hear about how you found it and the work you did on it, who did that work, and what they did right, what they did wrong, what you learned. With my maximizer philosophy, it's just I'm intellectually curious. I want to hear about those things. It turns out that you can share those stories pretty broadly.And a lot of people find that stuff fascinating. Not just about home improvement, or doctors, or pregnancy or whatever, but like maybe even about products or travel. There's a human need to share these stories from friend to friend. I think that's where Fresh Chalk can really shine.Edward: Is Fresh Chalk a two-sided marketplace?Adam: Yeah, it definitely is. Like the other ones I've done, we have local businesses or small businesses on one side and consumers on the other. There is a marketplace. There's no transaction per se, so it's hard to really put the word “market” in there. We don't have a transaction yet might be a better way to phrase that. But it's definitely a marketplace and we have to keep both sides happy.Edward: Where do you focus then? Do you focus on the merchants or the users? How do you weigh those two?Adam: It is so hard. This has been a struggle with all the companies in this band that I've participated in. My philosophy, and I can't say whether this is right or wrong, but my philosophy is that I really want to focus on the consumer side of things. That's what I like to do.I think that if you don't have consumer interest in your product, then the merchants are not going to show up. Why would they show up to use Fresh Chalk? Why would restaurants be on Urbanspoon if there are no diners on Urbanspoon? They're just not interested. My purpose has always been to get consumers interested first. Once you have consumers, the businesses are always going to show up. If you don't have consumers, it's very difficult to get businesses to show up. But especially with something like at Fresh Chalk, a lot of what we're doing is social. It's friend recommendations.You can bootstrap just by having people coming out of the recommendations and then sharing it with their friends. That will create a distribution for your product, even without having a lot of businesses on the platform.Edward: So how do you get users? What have you found that's successful getting users onto your platform and using it?Adam: Fresh Chalk is interesting because it's a combination of—there's a social network component, so it's people creating and sharing in a similar way as they would do on Facebook, or Nextdoor, or places like that. I guess Nextdoor isn't particularly social, but there is a lot of sharing.And then there's a ton of SEO. We have landing pages for a lot of the businesses in the cities that we cover, especially places where we've gone deep like Seattle, we might have every business. We also have the categories. There's a ton of SEO traffic coming in. If you start Googling for businesses in Seattle, you're probably going to see Fresh Chalk showing up in the top 10. So there's an SEO component, there's a social or viral component, and especially in the beginning where you're tinkering with the product, there's a lot of manual outreach. You've got to reach out to users and say hey, can you, can you kick the tires? Just give it a shot.Some of these social networks, they really jump start with these massive marketing efforts. That's never been my way of doing things, especially I'm not into raising all this money to experiment. I'd rather experiment with small amounts of money, and then when you feel like you have a good story, then you can put some money on marketing to really expand your reach.Edward: Talk to me more about the SEO. What are you doing on SEO? You can build a directory and Google obviously likes directories, but a directory without any traction is not going to get very far on Google. Why are you ranking?Adam: There's something to be said for breadth. We have this great directory. The last few companies that are built, there's been a crawling aspect to them. Fresh Chalk aggregates reviews from other sites, and so we can actually build even without anybody.If you were to look at Fresh Chalk Atlanta or some arbitrary city like that, we probably already have a decent ranking for small businesses because we're aggregating reviews from other third party sources, and we can put stars on those pages and maybe even attract some links with our badge program. We reach out to small businesses and we say, hey, you're one of the best businesses in Atlanta, you should put this badge on your page. And it's true. They are one of the best businesses in Atlanta because we calculated it. We're pretty certain about it.It's not like it rings false and we've got this good looking badge, and a lot of these companies are very happy to put on their site that creates links for us and increases people's knowledge of Fresh Chalk. I think that SEO is always the long game. The way I talk about it is that it's like a garden and we have planted some seeds and the seeds are growing. I can tell you that yesterday was our best traffic day ever, and most of that is just organic SEO. We've been to the garden, we are watering the garden and some things are sprouting.Edward: Let's talk a little bit more about those merchants. How are you getting merchants to sign up?Adam: The easiest way to get them to sign up is there are some very simple pitches you can give them. I've always had good luck with really honest pitches. In fact, that's the only pitch that I can do.Edward: Adam, when you say pitches, is this like an email you're sending them or it's like you calling them up and talking to them?Adam: Direct outreach either through email or in some cases, phone. The things you say to these small businesses are honest. What you say to them are things like hey, we built this great page for you on Fresh Chalk and people are leaving reviews on Fresh Chalk. Would you like to be notified when you get a review on your page? People say yeah, of course I want to be notified. Then we go and collect an email address and they're on the platform. They're considered a verified merchant on the platform.The obvious backdrop to this whole conversation is COVID and lockdown and how that has affected small businesses in the US which is not good, in case anybody's been living under a rock. But if you put that aside, Fresh Chalk has had pretty good success with getting businesses to sign up on Fresh Chalk.Edward: Doing that way, doing the direct outreach, is that one of those things that don't scale, or do you think this outreach strategy is scalable?Adam: I've always had good luck with doing them in ways that don't scale in the beginning. So you try things. We may hire somebody, you just have to make a thousand phone calls. That's fine. If we measure the response rate, the commercial management, we may try a few different pitches. Maybe we hire somebody and have them send 1000 emails, handcrafted, and we measure the response rate. If it seems like it's working, we can always hire 10 people to do that. That's a playbook that has worked for me really well in the past.I have a high sensitivity to spam and people's time, and these small businesses are playing in an environment where all these small businesses really, really, really hate Yelp. I can't even tell you the anger that small businesses feel towards Yelp. They despise Yelp with the heat of 1000 suns. They really can't stand Yelp.In a way, Fresh Chalk through—I'd say some planning and a lot of luck—is the anti-Yelp. We don't have negative reviews. It's just recommendations. You can recommend a business. If you want to take a dump on a business and say I hated this place, you have to accumulate a certain amount of karma points on Fresh Chalk before you can even access that feature.If some electrician comes to your house and they blow your fuse and charge you $800, which by the way, has happened to me, and I want to leave a negative review, I can do that because I've been on Fresh Chalk and I've accumulated all this karma and I have access to the negative review feature. But you can't get these drive by negative reviews. These rants where people trash businesses, we don't have that feature. We didn't design it that way. It's supposed to be positive. We want to step away from all the negativity on the internet and get great recommendations from your friends. Sure, maybe your friends want to steer you away from businesses. But mostly, they just want to point you at the right electrician, not rant about the wrong one.When we talk to these small businesses, anybody who bothers to listen to us for more than about 30 seconds, they start to understand the Fresh Chalk is the anti-Yelp. It's social. It's positive. We want their business to succeed. It's free. It's a pretty good pitch. The trick is just getting past—if you can get them to pick up the phone and listen for a few seconds, you probably can get them to sign up. Edward: Right now, there's no monitor. As you said, it's free for users, it's free for merchants. Where is your monetization going to come from?Adam: I've had good luck with these businesses. Until you really know they've got some product-market fit and some usage and people are interested in what you built—if you built something compelling—that's always a good time to start layering on monetization, the kinds of products that I build. I'm very wary of trying to monetize too early. Obviously, if you build a platform where consumers are coming in to get recommendations for services, or products, or restaurants, or travel, the advertising revenue is obvious there. There's a very obvious play for businesses that just want to get more traffic. That's something that, if we had real traffic, I think we'd be looking into, once we get there.The other place that really stands out to me is referral programs. A lot of these businesses are already tracking referrals. If you use a particular service, they want to know how did you hear about us? Was it one of our existing customers? And then they kick them a $25 gift certificate or a free cleaning is something that dentists do sometimes. All of these businesses are looking for ways to increase their own businesses, and we're very receptive to that. Fresh Chalk, as a social platform for sharing recommendations, is really well suited to slide right into those referral programs and maybe take them over and start tracking them and doing rewards, and I could see that being a great way to monetize as well. But that's all down the road. Right now, we just got to make something that's fun, and then we can monetize it later. Edward: Transitioning from fun, you mentioned earlier that COVID has affected your business. You talk a little bit about how you guys responded to COVID.Adam: Obviously this has been a horrible time for everybody, particularly in the US, and if you're running a small business, it is so, so, so hard right now. We can tell that many small businesses are struggling or closing. The cities that have been hit the hardest and have locked down the best are the ones that are having the most trouble keeping their small businesses alive. The restaurant business is basically dead. Travel is toast. A lot of the services that people love on Fresh Chalk are really struggling.Our most popular category six months ago was probably nail salons, and people are not really going to nail salons at the moment, or if they are it's 1 out of 10 if they're going before. These businesses are on life support, Fresh Chalk is really well-positioned to, in some ways, be the voice of those communities. If you have something to say to your customers about what you're doing to be safe with COVID, Fresh Chalk is a great place to get the word out. We have a COVID status thing where any small business can say we're doing curbside pickup and we're all masked up. We do a very thorough cleaning each night with XYZ products. Fresh Chalk is a great place to say that to your audience.We've also advocated for a lot of these communities. We stepped in and we worked with some of these small business alliances to run surveys, to find out how small businesses are feeling about things. I have to say, it's heartbreaking. It's very sad. I didn't know this, but I am a lover of small businesses. I frequent a lot of small businesses in my neighborhood and around Seattle.I had a guy come to my house and his specialty was working on gas fireplaces. That's pretty much all he did and mine was broken and he fixed it, and then he spent half an hour rearranging the little fake embers so that it looks more aesthetically pleasing, which I didn't even know that I needed. But he was practically in there with toothpicks moving things around.When I meet somebody like that, it really makes a strong impression on me. Somebody who loves their work and it's not in technology and it is important and they're getting paid for it and they are enjoying it. I'm getting a lot of value out of it. I love businesses like that, and I want those businesses to survive COVID. A lot of them won't. I think it's incredibly sad. But Fresh Chalk is here to help some of them survive. We're doing our best.Edward: Adam, thank you. This has been fantastic. I like to end these interviews by asking you about quake books. But in your case, it's more of a quake genre. Is that right?Adam: Be more specific. What would you like to hear?Edward: I think you mentioned that science fiction has dramatically changed your life and how you think about things.Adam: I have read a lot of books that made strong impressions on me. Sometimes you read books, it takes you a long time to really internalize what they mean. Some of the books that I read as a kid, I think, are still resonating with me. Sidhartha made a really strong impression on me as a kid. I still remember very clearly, and more recently things like The Three-Body Problem which is a science fiction book.Occasionally, you read a book and you're just desperate for it not to end, and then once it's over, you close it and you think, I wish they had written another one, and they've been dead for 100 years. That's what a lot of my reading is like.I was reading a book the other day by Jack Vance who, I think, was a largely forgotten fantasy, science fiction guy. I was laughing so hard. I'm lying in bed, reading it on my phone. Shannon's asleep next to me, and I'm chuckling and the bed is shaking. It's the middle of the night and I'm cracking up. How often do you read a book like that? It's like my whole philosophy of life. I'm always going deep and looking for these hidden gems, and you know what? Sometimes you find them.Edward: We're going to end with that. Thank you, Adam. This has been fantastic.Adam: Thanks Ed. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

If you’re looking for insights into the trends of the eCommerce industry, look no further than Adam Rose, the Chief Talent Officer, of eCommerce Placement. Adam has had a long career as a recruiter, including the last decade at eCommerce Placement, the company he founded to focus on the industry he believed was the future. That bet has paid off, and as the eCommerce industry has grown and changed, Adam has been in the middle of it all. What are the skills eCommerce based businesses are looking for? Where are eCommerce leaders focusing their attention and investing in growth? How is consumer behavior leading the shifts we’re seeing in the industry and how can those working in the industry be successful using analysis of that behavior? Which industries and companies are emerging as big-time players in the eCommerce landscape? Adam has the answers to all of those questions, and he shared them with us on this episode of Up Next in Commerce.   3 Takeaways: Ecommerce offers positions of the future, and right now very few colleges are offering programs that prepare students for them. Those who want to get into the industry need to be lifelong learners and seek out new knowledge Consumer behavior has completely changed, and industries are seeing a shift that they thought they would have years to prepare for, happen in just a few months. That has led to a movement to build Ecommerce teams quicker than ever before CPG companies are starting to heavily invest in Ecommerce, which presents an opportunity for people who want to work in Ecommerce the ability to work in a newly-entrepreneurial environment but with more resources For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postals. And today I have Adam Rose on the show. How's it going? Adam: It's going great. Thank you. Really happy to be here. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here too. Tell me how did you first get involved in the world of e-commerce? What led you to create this company? Adam: Yeah. So eCommerce Placement, we are a leading e-commerce recruitment firm and what we do is we work with online retailers, e-commerce technology companies, really anyone that touches upon e-commerce. And we're recruiting across the full spectrum of e-commerce functional areas. So that's leadership roles, strategy and management, digital marketing across the whole channels, site merchandising, operations, analytics, logistics and fulfillment, creative technology, the entire gamut. And we've been doing this for 10 years and e-commerce as you know has been growing year after year. So we're just very fortunate to be in this space and one that's really interesting. Adam: Yeah. So, well I've actually been in recruitment my entire career. It is all I know and all I can do. But I went to school and I have a bachelor's degree from Rutgers in psychology and realized I didn't really want to be a psychologist, but I minored in labor and employment relations, which is essentially HR. And that got me into thinking about recruitment or HR as a career. And I ended up getting my masters in HR manager at Rutgers as well. And when I got out of school, I started in more of a generalist HR role at a financial services company doing benefits and compensation and recruitment. And the recruitment piece is what I really liked and decided that's what I wanted to stick with. So I was doing recruitment for several different financial services companies and then a little bit of pharmaceutical as well. And it wasn't until I landed a corporate recruiting position at Borderfree that I got into e-commerce. And Borderfree was a startup e-commerce software as a service company. Adam: And what they did was they allowed US-based online retailers to sell their products overseas to international customers seamlessly. Just like if they were here within the US, yes. And we had about 50 employees at the time when I joined and I grew that company to about 350 before it was sold to Pitney Bowes, much larger organization. Yes, but it was there that I saw that e-commerce was a really hot industry, that folks were still figuring it out. It was a really cool industry if you're an entrepreneur, if you like startup environments, which I did, very different from financial services and pharmaceutical. And I saw that there was a huge need for e-commerce specific recruiting agencies out there. We were working with some of the larger recruitment firms that were just very generalists. They didn't focus in e-commerce, but they were trying to help us regardless. Adam: And I saw that they just didn't have a good understanding of what we did, the types of candidates that we needed, where they'd be coming from, what they'll be doing. And after a while I said to myself that I could do that. I see what these agency recruiters are doing on their end and honestly it seems better than what I'm doing on the corporate side because they're not having to deal with a lot of the paperwork that I have to do, a lot of the internal struggles that I have. And they were doing the best part of recruiting, in my opinion, which is just proactively going out there and sourcing top talent. And that's what got me into recruiting in the first place and got me excited about it. I think it's one of the most strategic parts of business is bringing in the right talent, without that talent that your business may not be so successful. So that's really what got me thinking about making the switch and 10 years later I'm really glad that I did. Adam: And what we're really good at right now is just the fact that over the past 10 years, we've built this huge e-commerce talent network. We have our proprietary database of candidates, we utilize LinkedIn where we have a huge network and following there. And that's a differentiator that a lot of other recruitment firms don't have. And we're also building very longterm relationships with prospective candidates, following them throughout their career. Just being there for them, regardless of whether or not we have opportunities for them in providing advice around their resume, around their career goals and that playing the longterm game is, in this business, I think very important. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that's exciting. So how do you vet talent? Because it seems like, at least when I was at Google Day's interview questions were kind of hard to rely on because people would get through and you'd be like, "How did you get here? You definitely don't belong here." So what are some good tips that you could give to other e-commerce brands who are looking to hire? What kind of interview questions or tactics or strategies do you do to vet candidates to make sure that they're the right fit for the company and actually have the knowledge that's needed? Adam: Yeah. So the first thing is that the company itself really has to have a good idea of what their needs are. And that's our job too, is working with them initially to make sure that we're all on the same page. And a lot of times our clients don't even have job descriptions created. And then we have to work with them directly to create that job description and make sure that everything's buttoned up so that when we are going out there and trying to identify the right candidate and speaking with them, we have really good sense of what they're looking for. And I'm talking to them about what their day to day job looks like, the responsibilities, where these people should be coming from and what their soft skills are needed for these positions, everything. And then we go out there and we take a look and do some research to what similar companies, what are some of the competitors out there that maybe we should be tapping into? Adam: Job titles may differ between organizations too. So we'll make a list of all the different job titles that could potentially match this position. And then we'll do an extensive search on that end. And then once we get them on the phone, it's really just conversational. We don't do very hard hitting questions. Our goal is just to make sure that A, the candidate is interested, that this would be something that they could potentially see themselves doing in the future and that they also have the right skillset for it. And that comes out during a conversation when you're just asking them, tell me a bit about your experience. Walk through your background with me. Do you have experience on this side of the business? And if not, is that something that you think you could tackle in your next role? So it's really just getting to know the person. Adam: And then what we do is we send a summary of their experience, their resume, their compensation expectations over to the client and they decide from there whether or not they think this person might be the right fit and they'll get them on the phone and usually to do an initial phone interview and go from there. But what we aim to do is really focus on quality over quantity. There are a lot of recruitment firms out there that kind of give us a bad rap by sending over 100 candidates for a position and- Stephanie: These people I Googled and they're looking for work on LinkedIn. Adam: Exactly, exactly. And hoping that one of them sticks and they're just throwing them at the wall. But we don't do that. We send over three, four, maybe five candidates and these are all people that we feel you would at least benefit from by getting on a call with them. And our resume to hire ratio is insanely high. Our interview to hire ratio's insanely high and we're really proud of that. Stephanie: That's awesome. So are there any skills that these e-commerce company companies specifically are looking for that are hard to kind of find right now? Like there was a shortage and people who knew... engineers always refer to engineers out here, is there a skill where all the companies want this right now and if you had the skill you would get scooped up but I can't find it. Adam: You're totally right about engineering. Any technology position is incredibly valuable right now for e-commerce organizations. And that's everything from engineering to product management, which is a really interesting field for a lot of people to get into that really makes this business strategy and technology that I try to steer people into because they're always needed. Stephanie: And that's not actually a career path that you're told about in the early days. I know I heard about product management, I'm like, "What does that actually mean?" And then, well you kind of should be a little bit technical and you should also have a strategic hat on when you're thinking, I'm like, "I've never heard of this when I came out of college. Why not?" Adam: That's right, that's right. These are roles that people really just fall into. And that's across all of e-commerce. There are very few colleges out there that offer any type of program in e-commerce. So when you get a degree in marketing, you may not be thinking about e-commerce marketing. It's a very vast field and that's just an example. So these are positions of the future that I try to steer new grads into or those that are looking to make a career change because this is an incredible field. But getting back to your question, our hottest positions right now are anything related to Amazon. Companies are really doubling down on their Amazon business, whether it be a marketing or sales, channel management, Amazon is huge. It's the elephant in the room, right? So- Stephanie: It seems obvious, but when I hear that I'm like, "Oh, I wouldn't think about hiring for a role specifically focused on Amazon," but it makes. Adam: Yeah, Amazon, other marketplaces, retailer.com channels. If you're a brand or manufacturer of products that are sold on Overstock, Wayfair, Zulily, you need to manage your online sales strategy and execution on those sites. So there are roles that are specifically focused on doing that as opposed to their direct to consumer channel off their own website. It's a very vast and complex e-commerce industry. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's really interesting. How would someone develop skills for an Amazon specific role? It seems like you would have to maybe be a seller on Amazon and to know all the ins and outs. You would actually have to have been there, done that to be able to help another company? Adam: Yeah. So, yes. And part of what we get tasked to do is go out there and find individuals that have very relevant skill sets that can come in day one and hit the ground running. And that's what we're good at. But when I advise people on how to get that experience, you have to start small. You have to take on additional responsibilities. If you're in a direct to consumer role right now and you're specialist, start taking on more general generalist responsibilities, start dipping your feet into Amazon and just start asking questions and learn because this is the future and this is how you grow in your e-commerce career. E-commerce is really cross-functional. You need to work across all different departments. Across marketing and merchandising and promotions and fulfillment in no matter what role you're in. And you're going to have to deal with e-commerce metrics and web analytics in almost every role that you're in. Adam: So that's another question I get for individuals that are looking to get into e-commerce and they don't know how to do it and they don't know how to differentiate themselves. Maybe they've been working on the retail side, the retail brick and mortar side, and they're seeing everything that's going on now and they're like, "Oh, Adam, I really want to get into e-commerce. How do I differentiate myself? What do I do to get my foot in the door?" And one of the things I always recommend is get certified in Google Analytics. It's free. Google, they allow you to do this on their site. They have a program. And that's something that is incredibly important for you to know. Almost every company uses Google Analytics in some way even if they do have a more sophisticated web analytics software and it's free and you can put it on your resume and it's great to talk about during interviews. So things like that and I think are really important. Stephanie: Got it. Well, how do you see the industry changing? Seems like e-commerce, of course, is changing really quickly and when I think about having... I mean, I love Google, I work there. But I think having Google Analytics as a certification, what's next? Because I know at least on our side, when it comes to marketing campaigns and things like that, Google Analytics isn't somewhere that we utilize anyways even if we're not e-commerce. But I'm thinking about what's coming next after that? What are the next platforms or tools or technologies or focus areas maybe that would come after that that someone could dive deep into along with Google Analytics because they are a force used by everyone in the industry too. Adam: Yeah, no, it's a good question. And there are new platforms coming out all the time. There are platforms that are getting acquired left and right. There are tons of different marketing technologies out there, whether they're related to paid search or email marketing. What I find is that companies, for the most part, don't really care what you have experienced in as long as you have some sort of experience in these technologies because you can pick it up. It doesn't take a genius to figure these out, but it does take someone that has a digital mindset or somebody that really could tackle the complexities of these different programs. Adam: But if you've mastered one, it's really not that hard to master others. So yes, there are new platforms and new technologies coming out all the time and you really should do your best to update your skillset. But from my perspective, companies, in terms of what they're requiring, you don't need to have experience across all of these different tools. Which is good because how are you going to get your hands on Adobe Analytics if your company is not using it? It's very difficult, right? So I think it's important to demonstrate your ability to learn these new programs first and foremost. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. That's what we look for when... whenever I'm going through the hiring process here, I look for more of like, do you have the ability to learn something and you have experience showing that you've tried new things and learn new things. You don't have to know exactly how to use Adobe Audition, but could you pick it up because you've tried it? A different tool or something. Adam: Yes. Yeah, it's a bit of a balance and sometimes a bit of a fight when we're working with our clients and they want skill sets that are so specific and experience that is very specific to what they're doing currently. Where it's like, "Hey, do you really need that or can this person learn that?" And then they start thinking about it and we come to a bit of a compromise there. Stephanie: Yep. Cool. So I'm sure with all the companies that come to you for hiring right now, you might be seeing a different trend. Whether maybe it's online grocery picking up and people asking you for help there. What industries do you see growing the fastest right now with everything going on? Adam: Yeah. You're totally right and online grocery is huge right now and these are industries that were just novel, they were new. Online alcohol delivery, very new and that has been accelerated during these current times. And you look at pet food, you look at children's toys, you look at home improvement, furniture. These are areas that are doing very well. Consumer health and beauty. We're working with clients that are in these spaces right now that they're e-commerce volume is where they wanted it to be a year from now, but they haven't hired accordingly because who knew? And they're scrambling and that's very common right now. But they know that things are going to continue to spike even after everything's back to normal and digital transformation is going to be accelerated more so than ever before. Adam: There's going to be increasingly heavy investments in e-commerce and omni-channel. So we're still in a really good spot. Everything is still really new. E-commerce as a whole is surprisingly a very small percentage of overall revenue for a lot of retailers and every point that jumps up is a lot for these companies and we're going to continue to see that. So think about online furniture where consumer behavior has just completely changed where in the past people wouldn't do it. They wanted to go to a store and sit on a couch or try out a bed and now you don't need to do that. People are way more comfortable shopping online for these types of products without ever seeing it, without ever feeling it in person. And we're going to see that across many industries at this point. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. Do you think things will stay the same post pandemic because some things I'm thinking like furniture anyways, I would still want to try out and sit, whereas beds, I'm pretty used to buying a mattress and being able to send it back. But furniture, a lot of companies, anyways, you can't just send it. Are there certain industries that you think will kind of go through a dip period again after everything calms down and then maybe ramp back up or you just think everything's going to stay elevated at where it's at now? Adam: Well, some of the elevation right now is severely elevated just because of everything that's going on so we'll see a dip for sure. But overall across the board I do think e-commerce activity is going to remain... the volume is just going to be extremely high. And to your point with wanting to shop for a couch but still sit on it, yes. But companies are getting way better at returns, making that an easy process and deliveries. Consumers are demanding faster and faster and they're expecting faster and faster deliveries and companies are really working on that. And there are a lot of vendors out there that are 3PLs and similar to that are supporting them in getting those items up to these customers as fast as possible. And you're going to see an increase in online volume just due to the fact that it's becoming much easier. The barriers are breaking down. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. I just wanted to order something off Amazon, and I saw now that you don't have to bring a box back, you just bring it back to the UPS store and will ship it out with no box. And I'm like, "Oh, this is awesome." Because that is actually what has held me up from returning things is not being able to find a box and being lazy. But I can definitely see a lot of industry's changing and making that return process a lot more seamless. So then I will feel comfortable buying furniture or other things like that. Adam: That's right. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. So do you see any technological patterns or trends coming down the pipe that you're excited about because of this? Because I'm sure the underlying tech will have to change for a lot of these companies who, like you said, they weren't expecting this this year. They're maybe expecting a year, even five years down the line. Adam: Yeah, I'm a bit of a technology nerd, especially consumer technology, just personally. And what had really excited me prior to the pandemic was everything that was going on in regard to augmented reality and virtual reality and e-commerce. That was another field that was kind of teetering. We didn't know if it was going to be successful. We didn't know if that was going to be adopted. But now with people not going into stores as much, it makes a lot of sense. If you want to see what your beauty product looks like on you without even going into a store and you are able to do that just by holding your phone up. That is amazing. You can see your different hair colors, you can, going back to furniture, you can place that furniture in your room using your phone without even going into a store to see it. So there's a lot of really neat things that they can do on that AR, VR side that can make customers a lot more comfortable shopping online than ever before. Stephanie: Yeah, no, no. That's a really exciting space right now. Have you seen companies embracing that now? Companies who were not embracing it before actually starting to think about embracing it now? Because it still feels like a field that feels a little bit hard to break into right now, because it's like, "What tech do I need? How do I get started?" Adam: It is very, very new. And I think that most companies that are thinking about it are mostly in just the very early development stage where they're talking about it. They're putting in into some strategic plans, but still need to work out the kinks. There are very few companies that do it right, right now, but I it's I think an interesting field to watch. Stephanie: I'm still trying to think about too how the difference between how a company can use AR versus VR. Because VR feels easier to me because you're in that world and things don't have to be perfect. AR still has to be perfect. So I'm trying to think about, at least when we were trying to get things to work on Google maps in an AR version and it was really hard. I mean, it was snowing in Zurich and then the whole time the app would go down and some will change a piece of a building and put a sign on it and then the localization would be wrong and then it'd go down again. So I'm trying to think about which one would come first or maybe at the same time. Adam: So it's certainly not perfect and the technology is getting better every year. VR is very expensive. You need to have a complete headset and there are not a lot of freestanding headsets either. So it needs to be connected to a computer as far as I'm aware. AR is a lot easier. You can utilize your smartphone and the technology is a little bit more limiting, but it does allow you to do a lot more with it. So I think companies are probably better off investing in augmented reality to start seeing how that grows because consumer adoption of virtual reality headsets, it's just not there yet. But everybody has a smartphone. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. And I think I just saw maybe Magic Leap, I mean, other than having to lay off a bunch of people, they're shifting to enterprises now and they're not focusing on consumers. They're also wondering if there's going to be a hiccup there with the companies who were producing the big headsets that were more expensive if they're going to be there after all of this. Adam: Yeah. For consumers, I'm not really sure. But other industries, for the medical field, I can imagine Magic Leap being huge, right? So there's a lot of potential there and we'll see how it grows on the consumer side. Stephanie: Got it. Are there any industries in e-commerce that you're most excited about right now other than the ones that are popping up now. But before all this started, are there industries that you were focused in on? Adam: So it's interesting. When we first started, our business was very much comprised of fashion apparel companies, consumer electronics companies. It wasn't until the past two, three years that CPG companies started investing very heavily in e-commerce. They were a little bit late to the game and they realized it. They started figuring out e-commerce and we're talking food and beverage companies, we're talking consumer health companies. And it's very exciting times for them where they're figuring out direct to consumer, they're figuring out marketplace, they're figuring out retailer.com and did they have very large complex businesses. Adam: A lot of these are very omni-channel too where they have stores and they're incorporating their mobile application into their omni-channel strategy. So we're working with a ton of these and I think that the opportunity there is really interesting as they really focus more on the customer journey as well. That they can the customer... if you're going into a store, you don't really have the ability to customize an experience for that customer as they walk into a store and look at your product on the physical shelf but on a digital shelf you can do that. So there's a lot of opportunity there for emerging CPG companies to provide a really interesting customer journey to their experience that they otherwise couldn't. Adam: And that is beneficial if your product is a subscription based, right? How do you maintain loyalty in a subscription environment? How do you differentiate yourself from a lot of other CPG brands out there? Maybe even ones that compete on price. So these companies are really trying to figure it out and hiring very large e-commerce teams to do so. So for us it's been a lot of fun working with them and for candidates, it's if you want to work in a very entrepreneurial startup like environment, but still for a very large company that has a ton of resources to make it successful, CPG is the way to go. Stephanie: That's the most fun when you have resources to actually try something [inaudible 00:29:03]. Adam: Yeah, yeah. A little less risky, but still you get the benefits of that startup environment. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's fine. Are there any companies that you either hear your clients looking to as leaders to watch or that you advise them like, Hey, you should check out maybe this company because they're a leader with this, this and this. Is there anyone that we should look to either mimic or follow? Adam: Everybody wants to be the next cool startup in e-commerce. And everyone's like, we want to be the next Casper. We want to be the next- Stephanie: Dollar Shave Club. Adam: Dollar Shave Club or Harry's or whatever it might be. But this is where you have to level set with early stage startups and entrepreneurs. They think many times that they're going to be able to acquire top talent just because their idea is so cool. And that's often not the case and they're oftentimes looking to pay them more heavy on the equity side than base compensation. And they think that because of their idea's so cool that people are going to see the potential on this and that's going to be okay for them. The truth is that's not the case. That if you're an early stage startup or an entrepreneur, you have to pay market rates. You just do. That's the only way to be competitive. If you want top talent in the marketplace, you're going to have to do that on top of providing equity. So we have to level set sometimes and make sure that they understand that and it's a challenge, but you're talking about their baby when you do that but that's just what we see in the marketplace. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. Have you seen salaries grow over the past 10 years when it comes to what people are willing to pay e-commerce talent? Adam: Yeah. Yeah. E-commerce it pays well, it does because this is a huge revenue area for companies. They have a lot at stake here and these are roles that are highly specialized and there's not a huge talent market out there. If you want to remain competitive, you have to pay highly competitive rates. So companies know this, they get it, they understand it. We work with companies that are based outside of major cities, but for their e-commerce talent, they really want to pay city rates, city market rates just to remain competitive and for not just acquisition but for retention too. They don't want them jumping to another company. And this is going to be a significant factor going forward too with all these companies investing heavily in e-commerce and e-commerce teams growing and every company looking to hire e-commerce talent, how do you remain competitive? Adam: And that is, first and foremost in my opinion, compensation. And then companies are going to have to start thinking about remote or flexible work arrangements because this is what everybody wants. People reach out to me daily asking me if we have remote opportunities. This was before everything happened. And now I think that this is going to be front and center in people's minds and on their wishlist going forward and companies are either going to need to adjust to this or be okay with losing out on top talent. Stephanie: Yeah. And I think this might've been a good forcing function to get those companies to a place where they feel more comfortable as long as they see good results. A lot of people have been working from home now, I could see some companies seeing bad results and some seeing good ones so it all depends. Adam: I'd hate for them just to base it on this time right now because it is such an unprecedented time that people are... their kids are home. It is very difficult to get things done and have to figure out how to work remotely maybe when they haven't in the past. And it's just a very unique environment right now. Test it when everyone's back at work and things are a bit back to normal. That I think would be the true test. Stephanie: Yeah. Have you seen any of your clients adapting quickly to try and create good work from home type opportunities where maybe they're like, "Okay, I'm going to shift that job req to be remote now instead?" Or are they a little bit slower with that? Adam: Yeah. So certainly a lot of our clients have said, "This is the final straw. These roles are going to be remote. Don't worry about having people work in house for this or onsite." But what's happening now is that everything is remote where candidates are being interviewed over the phone and over Zoom. They're being hired over Zoom. They are getting onboarded over Zoom. They're going through orientation over Zoom. So everything is virtual and it's a learning curve for everybody. It's a learning curve for these companies. It's a learning curve for candidates. I've had candidates that had to do presentations, interview presentations over Zoom, and that's very unique and different and- Stephanie: Awkward. Adam: Very awkward. There are a lot of new challenges there. Stephanie: It's like, "Are you laughing over there? Oh, it's just frozen. Okay. Oh, awkward." Adam: Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. So we're all figuring this out at the same time. And I think that in a more normal environment that companies will see that this is the future, you can't stop it. Stephanie: All right, so towards the end of the interview here we do this thing called a lightning round sponsored by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where you can quickly answer whatever comes to mind and you have one minute and you have about five questions here. Adam: Okay. Stephanie: Are you ready Adam? Adam: I am ready. Stephanie: Okay, I'll start with the easier ones first and then we'll have a harder one last. All right. Since we were talking with you and our producer Hillary, that it's lunchtime for you guys. What's up next for lunch? Adam: Oh. So I am a big granola fan and I will eat granola for every meal of the day. And that's what I will probably hit up for lunch. Stephanie: Yum. I haven't heard your stomach rumbling yet so amazing. What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu queue? Adam: Interesting. I have had Ozark on there the new season for a long time. I just have not had the opportunity to watch it. But that is a really interesting show and I've been looking forward to it. Stephanie: Awesome. I see our producer, Hillary is in my dock right now in all caps saying, "I love granola too." That's good. Adam: I'm glad. Stephanie: That is a fan favorite. What's up next in your travel destinations? When you are allowed to travel? Adam: Oh man. I can't wait to get out of the house, first and foremost. But assuming we can get out this summer, Maine has been our favorite destination for summer trips. We go to Portland, Maine. Love it there. The restaurants are fantastic. It's on the water, there tons of parks to go to. We bring our kids, our dogs and the whole family goes and just they have a great time. So I'm hoping to still get there at some point. Stephanie: Awesome. Yeah, it sounds really pretty. What's up next on your reading list or podcast list other than this podcast or [inaudible 00:37:46]? Adam: So my favorite podcast probably have to be How I built This with Guy Raz. So I listened to that pretty religiously and I love hearing the stories of these entrepreneurs and how they get started and what they did to scale and the challenges that they did face. And one of my favorite questions that Guy likes to ask is how much of your success can be attributed to luck? And surprisingly, almost everybody says a lot. And I find that just a really interesting. And, again, we talked about being in the right place at the right time and I think that's really interesting. Of course, you make your own luck by getting yourself out there and working hard but the luck is certainly is a big factor. Stephanie: Oh yeah, completely agree. A lot of the reason we're here is because of luck for sure. And timing and being like, "Oh, glad that happened when it did, because if not, we might not be at this company right now." Adam: That's right, that's right. Stephanie: So completely agree. All right. The harder question. In your opinion, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Adam: For individuals in e-commerce? Stephanie: Yeah. Adam: What's up next? I think that we're going to be seeing a lot of activity, a lot of companies doubling down on e-commerce like I mentioned. And what they're going to be looking for are people that can understand the entire e-commerce ecosystem and that may be everything from retail, brick and mortar to omni-channel to direct e-commerce. Companies are going to look for people that can integrate their strategies and everything is becoming more integrated. There may not be different channels anymore. They're all blending together. So for people that understand the business, that is going to be critical for these companies, and that's where you should be really focusing on your skillset. If you're a specialist right now, start learning outside of your box and start thinking about the business and how it operates and how everything ties together, because that's what's going to be most important. Stephanie: Love it. Great answer. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Adam. This is fun. Adam: Is great. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.

The Henson Trust  Rob: Hey folks! Today we're talking about the Henson Trust and what you need to know, especially if you have a disabled child and you want to protect some of that wealth for them. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I'm joined today by Adam Buss. Adam is a Wealth and Estate Planning Specialist here at Canaccord Genuity. He's been on the show a bunch of times here and we're happy to have him today as well. Let's talk about the Henson Trust. First of all, where does the name originate? Adam: The name Henson Trust originates from a precedent that was created from an Ontario court case. I'm assuming the Henson family, that won their case. That's kind of where it came from. Essentially, it's a fancy name or an easy to know name for a disability trust. Rob: Tell me why they can be useful and how you would see it used in planning. Adam: It's certainly a big advantage. You should use a Henson Trust when, let's say a parent has a disabled child they want to leave money to, but that person's maybe not able to manage their own financial affairs or they're worried that a lump sum of cash might take away that person's disability benefits that they're getting from the government. A Henson Trust is a fully discretionary trust. the parents still need to name a trustee. Now this would be a trust that originates from a will. It would be a testamentary trust. Rob: Not an inter vivos trust. For those of you who didn't know, I was called to the bar. I'm a lawyer actually with my previous career, so I used to dabble in some of this stuff. But anyways Adam, you were saying… Adam: I was saying, it does come down to parents who want to leave money, but they're worried that the government benefits are going to get taken away, or the child can't manage their financial affairs properly. Henson Trust allows all the income to be generated within that trust to be sheltered so it doesn't affect their government benefits going forward. It also means that somebody else is in charge of managing those dollars so that they're well maintained going forward.   Rob: Okay, I have a disabled child and I pass away, for example, and in my will I leave, I set up a trust. I name any trustees I want. I can name my brother or siblings or aunts and uncles, whoever you trust it to kind of look after that pot of money going forward. They then have full discretion as to how and when to pay this sum to the beneficiary. And I assume there can only be one beneficiary for Henson Trust. Adam: It would only be the one individual who qualifies for it through the disability. Rob: Okay, now there's a fully discretionary trust. Money is pulled out from time to time, the income that's earned, that can be invested, the cash itself that can be invested. Adam: That can be invested. Again, it comes down to the investment powers assigned to the trust as a whole, but it would be, invested in a portfolio to generate income, but all that income being generated does not have to be paid to the beneficiary or taxed to that beneficiary on a go forward basis. Rob: And the trust itself, I understand one of the large advantages is the graduated tax rate of the trust, Adam: Yeah, most testamentary trusts have to be taxed at the highest marginal tax rate. But in this case, it gets to be taxed at the normal graduated tax rate as if it was the individual earning the income directly. Rob: A trust is effectively its own legal entity and its own personal tax rate. If the trust makes you know, $10,000 or $20,000 of income that year, it will be treated as $10,000 or $20,000 of income. Not $10,000 or $20,000 plus your income that you're generating outside. You would in theory pay very little tax on that. It is more efficient that way. And then the beneficiaries as well. Now let's talk about setting up an alternative beneficiary for a Henson Trust. Adam: Yes, let's say parents have three different kids. One of them has a disability. They want that individual with the disability to be looked after, but they want the money to flow to their other kids. If that person passes away, they can name alternate beneficiaries, saying if the child, the one with the disability passes away, the money can flow to the other two kids without having to go through other estates along the way. Rob: That's a neat tool, you get the full benefit of a marginal tax rate. You get to create the trust on death. It's a fully discretionary trust and you also have the advantage of not having the income impact your other benefits that you might be getting from the government. Adam: Correct. A huge advantage when it comes to that and often things that we see, maybe overlooked or not properly addressed when we look at estate planning for those families that have somebody who has a disability within it. Check out the videos on disability tax credit, registered disability savings plan, all of those different things we want to look at when we're planning for those with a disability. Rob: Yeah, this is a critical piece of estate planning tool. If you have a child with a qualified disability, this is something you should absolutely, unequivocally consider. Meet with your accountant, meet with your lawyer, meet with a group like us, your advisor, because what's really neat about these trusts is they can be invested, they can be invested with a longer term horizon. And it's really part of a holistic estate plan, especially if you have a child with a disability. Okay, folks. If this interests you, and you'd like to chat a bit more, go to speaktorob.com. We would love to set up a no obligation consultation.

RDSP (H1) Rob: We're talking about RDSPs today, Registered Disability Savings Plan. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com. Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisor Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Today we're here with Adam Buss, Wealth and Estate Planning Specialist here at Canaccord Genuity, to talk about the RDSP. The RDSP, so where do we begin? Adam: Well, it is specifically designed for those who qualify for the DTC, the disability tax credit. We do have another video on the disability tax credit, so please click and enjoy that one as well. But the RDSP is a savings plan to basically save for the financial future. For somebody who has a qualified disability,  it's a plan the government throws a pile of free money towards. So comparable to the RRSP and the RESP, because we love acronyms, we're going to throw all those out. But  basically, the contributions that you make towards this plan are not tax deductible. For example, you put $1,000 in, you don't get a tax receipt, unlike the RRSP's case. It's a bit like the RESP in that way. The government does throw in some matching grants on that, which can be quite favorable depending on your income level. Rob: Let's talk about those grants. Could I open an RDSP in theory, for a beneficiary, I would imagine? Adam: Yeah, maybe a parent opening one for a child who's a beneficiary, or an individual who has a qualified disability opening one for themselves. Rob: Okay, and then there's grants for the first $3,500, there are matching grants. So basically 300% for the first 500 dollars. Adam: You bet. 300% return on your first $500 of contribution. Rob: That means you're getting $1,500 not bad, 200% on the next thousand, that's another $2000. And then 100% for the last thousand. That is a lot of grants. There is a lot of grant money coming out and there's some family income rules with respect to that. You must be making less than $93,000 per year.  Adam: That's to qualify for those grants. Anything above that income level I'm pretty sure it's 100% matching only, which dollar for dollar on the first thousand dollars is still a pretty good deal. Rob: It's a pretty good return. That's not bad. Most portfolio managers would be thrilled with that return. Let's talk about the bonds themselves. I understand there could be even more money thrown at you if you make less than another threshold. Adam: Yeah. If a family has a lower income level, you can get additional bonds that are thrown into the account even without you having to put a dollar in. I think it's $1,000 per year up to a maximum of $20,000. Rob: Wow, that's very, very good. Okay, now we open this account. Maybe I had the DTC now for five years. Can I go back?  Adam: You can. Absolutely. Let's say for a couple of years, maybe you're in low income, you can't afford to put a lot of money into there. And you come into some money or you get a gift at some point and you can put a large amount in and make up for some of those unused years of room. You can get a big pile of grant money in one lump sum and carry forward up to 10 years. Rob: Okay. Now the DAP, the disability assistant payment, that's for age 60 and beyond. And then would that be taxable on the way out? Adam: Any money that you put into the plan you can take out tax free. It's your money. Any money that the government put in, or growth on the account, is all taxable when the money comes out essentially. It does provide you with an income for your retirement time. Rob: That's very similar to the RESP. Very similar in that regard for the grant and the growth are taxable in the individual who pulls it out in their name. Now, I guess the idea here for planning wise is that one, you're getting a ton of money upfront from the government. Two, It's growing tax free inside the account. That's a big part, right? You're not paying tax on the income that's being generated inside the RDSP. And I guess finally in theory, as you're withdrawing this money, you could potentially be in a lower tax bracket at that age, you've had all those years of deferred growth. Adam: Yeah, generally, maybe some individuals with a qualified disability don't have the same potential of earnings throughout their lifetime, but their family wants to make sure that they have the money come retirement to look after themselves. This is a great way to try to protect their benefits that they're receiving from the government on a regular basis, which is why all that income is sheltered within the plan. Rob: If you get started early here, I could just see these accounts could get fairly large. I would imagine. Adam: Which is probably why the government did put a cap on the contribution limit of, I think it's $200,000 for a lifetime contribution and up to $70,000 of grant money. Rob: Right. And the contributions, you can make them up until you're 59 and no more grants after you're 49. Adam: Yeah, you don't have to weigh the pros and cons. Does it make sense to put money in past the age of 49 or not, as you aren't getting any free government money? There are situations where it does make sense. Rob: Yeah, you're putting $2,500 and you're getting $3,500 in matching. That's pretty neat. Now do they count, do they affect any future government sponsored benefits? Adam: Typically not. I mean, every province does set their own rules as to what qualifies and what doesn't qualify as income for reducing the government benefits. But the idea behind it is hopefully that it doesn't affect your government benefits. Always recommend checking with your provincial governing body. Rob: Now they talk about bonds. Does that mean that in the investment account you have to have bonds or could you put whatever you want in that investment account? Adam: Now you have a few more investment options. It's not an actual bond. It's basically just a gift of money that the government's giving, but you do have a lot of investment options at your disposal. Rob: You open an RDSP, you can put effectively stocks, bonds, debentures, preferred shares, alternatives, equities, ETFs, mutual funds. You could put whatever you want in that portfolio. Adam: There's a certain limitation. There's a few providers out there that don't provide services for RDSPs. But the best place to get the answers is to come to Rob Tétrault and figure out what is the investment options that are available for your RDSP account. Rob: And to do that, you'd go to www.speaktorob.com, to book a no obligation free consultation. Adam, it's been a pleasure, a real pleasure chatting with you today about the registered disability savings plan.

The Disability Tax Credit  Rob: Hey folks! Today, Adam and I are chatting about the DTC, the Disability Tax Credit. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I should introduce my guest here today. Thrilled to have Adam Buss, Wealth and Estate Planning Specialist here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam, thanks for being here. The disability tax credit, how does it apply and what is it exactly? Adam: It's a non refundable tax credit for those who have a qualified disability. And it's basically meant to try to equalize the disadvantages and the added costs that an individual with a qualified disability may face. They've basically given them a little bit of money back on an annual basis. Rob: Okay, that would mean, for example, an adult with a disabled child, right? Adam: It could be an adult with a disabled child, an individual who's above 18 and has a qualified disability. Any of those things, and this is a tax credit that can kind of carry on for your lifetime if you're considered qualified, Rob: and the DTC is attached to that individual with the disability. Adam: It's attached to that social insurance number essentially. Rob: And when they are minor, their parents in theory could or would get the credit. And when they're an adult, potentially they would get the credit on their own. Adam: Yeah. Or even if they're an adult and they have somebody who needs to claim them as a financial dependent. That individual can claim that disability. Rob: Okay.  there's a bunch of different ways a person can be eligible for the DTC, you must meet some of the following criteria. What would some of those be? Adam:  You know, there is substantial criteria. It generally means that if you're blind. You have troubles with certain activities of daily living, and different restrictions. There's quite a lengthy list. Certainly recommend going to the CRA's website to look at the full definitions. But when in doubt, if you have any sort of disability that you think may be qualified, chat with your doctor, chat with your tax professional to see if you can get qualified for the disability tax credit. It's a huge advantage for your income tax return. Rob: And I see here that the disability, the impairment is a prolonged impairment. They're saying it needs to be for an expected continuous period of at least 12 months. Adam: It needs to be long term. I could break my leg and have a reduced lifestyle for the six months or whatever, but it's not long term. To qualify it needs to be something that affects your lifestyle and your life on a long-term basis. Rob: And it must be present substantially all the time, at least 90% of the time. Now the tax credit, does that just reduce your tax or does it reduce your income? And it's $8,000 per year? Adam: That's $8,000 per year, which I believe reduces your income. Again, I'm not an accountant. We always recommend reviewing these items with your tax professional to make sure that it's being properly applied to your situation.  Rob: If you have the DTC, if you have the disability tax credit, then you could check out our other video on this, but you could automatically qualify for the RDSP, is that correct?  Adam: qualifying through the disability tax credit is the prerequisite for qualifying for the RDSP, the registered disability savings plan, which you did a fantastic video on not that long ago that I recommend you check out. Rob: So the RDSP, the really neat thing about that one is, there's a ton of grants and potential bonds, you put a few thousand dollars in... $2,500 a year, and the government will match you $3,500 a year, for example. It's a great savings vehicle. Okay. if you do have the DTC, you're wanting to get the $8,000 tax credit, but you also qualify for the RDSP. make sure to talk to your advisor, a guy like me. And for that you can go to www.speaktorob.com and you can find out all about the wonderful ways to structure an RDSP, and how to actually build a portfolio for that.

How does a Harvard-trained digital marketer use statistical analysis to improve the results he's getting from pay-per-click advertising? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Nerds Do It Better (how great is that company name?!) founder Adam Lundquist pulls back the curtain on the process he uses to build, execute and test high-performing PPC campaigns. Adam started his career as a shock jock and when he saw the business of radio giving way to digital, he embarked on a new career path that had him attending Harvard to study digital media and teaching himself how to do everything from social media to digital advertising. In this episode, Adam shares the exact process he uses to create high performing ads. He covers everything from his tech stack to the frequency with which he reviews and adjust ad performance. It's a replicable process that any business can copy, so check out the full episode or the transcript below for details. Highlights from my conversation with Adam include: Adam says that the key to success with digital marketing is to understand statistics and human psychology. The work he does is inspired by the story behind the movie Moneyball and he believes that most marketers don't use data correctly so those who are able to do it right have a competitive advantage. Marketers need to understand the difference between digital marketing-based goals and profit-based business goals. Marketing goals are leading indicators - things like the number of clicks or the conversion rate, whereas profit-based goals have to do with sales and revenue. Adam focuses on profit-based goals. When developing an ad strategy, Adam suggest starting by going to the Google Ads search query report to look at what you're actually showing for. If there are search queries there that are not relevant, add them to your negative keyword list. When you have your list of desired search terms, put them each in their own ad group. Adam uses a combination of Zapier and Unbounce to do attribution reporting on his ads, but says you can use other tools like Click Funnels as well. Because he sets his ad campaigns up as single keyword ad groups in Google Ads, Adam is able to pull the keyword that drove a visit or conversion into Unbounce using a hidden form field. He then uses Google sheets to track and report on ad performance, and automatically pulls data in to Google sheets in real time using Supermetrics. This system allows Adam to track the return on ad spend (ROAS) of individual keywords. When he finds a keyword that is yield a 3x or 4x ROAS, he puts that keyword into its own campaign and sets the budget to unlimited (because he knows, with confidence, he'll see a positive return on that investment). Adam uses Unbounce's dynamic keyword insertion functionality to create multiple, customized landing pages from a single template. Adam reviews and adjusts the performance of his ads on a weekly basis. He recommends starting your ads with a top of funnel offer such as an ebook that people will be more likely to convert on. This leverages the principles of compliance psychology which dictate that once someone says a small "yes," they are more likely to say a bigger "yes" after that. All of Adam's ad groups are single keyword and set to exact match. Resources from this episode: Visit the Nerds Do It Better website Follow Adam on Twitter Read Adam's article in Search Engine Journal Listen to the podcast to learn how to create high performing Google Ads. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth and my guest today is Adam Lundquist who is the founder of, and I love this agency name, Nerds Do It Better. I just have to take a moment and tip my hat to you Adam for the best company name I've had on this podcast to date. It's awesome. Adam Lundquist (Guest): I mean, we do. You know, you got to be a nerd to be in this business. Adam and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I love it so much. So much. I kind of wish I had thought of it myself. But you're interesting to me and I'm excited to chat with you about some of the things that you guys are working on, specifically with pay-per-click advertising and leveraging, like, statistical analysis and, you know, all that nerdy stuff because nerds do it better. About Adam and Nerds Do It Better Kathleen: But before we get into that, can you do me a favor and just tell my audience a little bit about yourself and who you are and how you wound up where you are and what exactly Nerds Do It Better does? Adam: Sure. So, hi, my name is Adam. I recently moved to London, England but I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. Pretty average childhood, but in Boston, it's a little bit of a different area. Have you ever been to Boston? Kathleen: I have, I grew up in southern New Hampshire, so. Adam: Okay, so you know. Oh, by Salem? That's where I got my first car, I don't know if you knew that. Beautiful, tax-free Salem. But so it's not like in California where I ended up moving to, and Boston, really, the two big things were sports and radio. Like, when I was growing up either you wanted to be on the Patriots or the Bruins, which definitely was not going to happen for me. Or you could be on radio, were like kind of the two big dreams. So, I wanted to be on radio. I kind of wanted to be the next Howard Stern, was a person that I really idolized growing up. And kind of I was going to school in the mountains of Massachusetts in a place called North Adams and I just basically got tired of the cold and I moved to Santa Barbara and I kind of applied six or seven times to be an intern at the local rock station. Got the internship, worked my way up there and eventually got my own radio show. My morning show, just like I thought, would be awesome, and it was awesome. We became number one rated and things were going really well, but around 2006 or 7ish I started to see that our advertising revenue was going down despite the fact that we were the number one rated show. So, I kind of knew that there was a death knell of radio because radio was supported by ads. Public radio, terrestrial radio, whatever, it's all ad supported. I started to see that the ads were actually going towards more of the internet and this was still very early on. I think YouTube came out like 2006. So, I thought well, I better get involved in this internet thing and I wanted to have a viral video. I thought that would be a cool thing to do and I thought it would be easy and it was not easy at all. So, I tried my hand in it. I had an interview with this guy called Sam Cassell on the Clippers and like, just to let you know where I was at, like, I know eventually I learned all this stuff, but at the time, like, I knew nothing about the internet or really marketing. I had no money at all because the pay was terrible. I couldn't pay to promote it. And I was in like pretty much the most expensive place I've ever lived and keep in mind, I'm living in London, but Santa Barbara is incredibly expensive. I mean, I did have my successful radio show but, so I did this interview, I put it on YouTube and nothing happened. Literally, two, three views maybe. So, I started to learn how to work the internet basically. I learned about email marketing, finding the right blogs, getting in front of the right audience, compliance psychology. So, at first I was saying, "Hey, would you put this video on your website?" Which was way too big an ask. I had to kind of go down and use an easier thing saying, "Hey, would you watch this video?" And when people start watching it, they would then post it on their site. Eventually, the video got picked up. Its number seven on Sports Illustrated's Viral Videos of All Time. It's on VH1s Best Week Ever. It really blew up, which was great. I needed to use the internet. I then got picked up to run six radio stations on the Central Coast internet presence. Wasn't even on the air for much, just running their internet presence. And I just basically got tired of radio. They were asking for stuff that could definitely happen in the 70s but could not happen in the 00s/10s, like a country station asked me to get them a team of horses which is just not going to happen in this day and age. So, I went back to school. I got accepted into Harvard. I got a master's degree from it and then went to a start up and from there, it was a very small start up. I was maybe the fourth employee or fifth. We became the second fastest growing start up in San Diego. Our biggest client was a water proof cell phone case company. We took them from about 20,000 in monthly revenue to over a million. But at some point I realized I needed to start my own company because basically I'm just a control freak and I kind of have an independent streak. But my company has grown quite a bit. You'll see us run at PPC Hero, Search Engine Journal. I spoke at Philly Tech Week maybe a year or two ago and Hero Conf, whatever. And you know, things are pretty good. I mean, I live in South Kensington, England. Kind of travel wherever I want. My wife and I were just in Bali and it's just a very comfortable way to live. As long as you can understand statistics and human psychology, you can pretty much run your part of the internet. Kathleen: Yeah. Your story is so interesting to me for a number of reasons. I mean, when I read your bio and it talked about you being a shock jock, I was like, "Oh I want to talk to him so much about that." But I feel like we won't have time. That's like a whole other podcast. But now I'm curious because I have a theory and I want to see if it turns out to be true. What did you major in at Harvard? Adam: What was it? Digital Media Arts and Instructional Design. I thought that I was going to be part of those massive online open courses. And I actually did, one of my teaching fellows pulled me aside and wanted to do something with it, but the pay for those is pretty bad. You'd be surprised. So, they're prestigious like it's definitely prestigious, but it was not the pay that I was looking for. Kathleen: Yeah. No, I've had this theory that many of the best marketers are not actually trained marketers. You know what I mean? I have a graduate degree in marketing so maybe I'm taking myself out of the running for this, being one of the best marketers, but a lot of the greatest marketers I've talked to, they didn't study marketing. They came from other backgrounds but they are super driven learners. Like, they have this sensational curiosity and so they wind up in marketing because there's a challenge they're trying to figure out like you with your viral videos. And they kind of like sink their teeth into that challenge, they figure it out and then they kind of like follow the thread and that takes them into marketing. And it sort of sounds like that's what happened to you with like trying to figure out the video, leveraging the statistical analysis, trying to figure out pay-per-click and solve for this changing landscape of radio and such and such. It's just interesting to me that that's what your background is. And just how you kind of rolled your sleeves up and figured it out. I love that. Adam: Yeah, I mean, I kind of had to. I saw the writing on the wall. So, at the point I was doing radio, I was teaching a course at a city college and working the newspaper like, might as well have been working the silent film era. Like, I was like, "I am in some really bad industries. I need to get in some really good industries real quickly." You know, a lot of my radio friends have wanted to transition into this, but at this point it's a little bit late and they don't really, the background doesn't move as much as it used to, right? So, if someone comes to you and they say, "Hey, I'm in the radio. I can make you have a great internet presence," you know, maybe they can do good on the radio. They're probably good at podcasting but yeah, for me it was the challenge and then seeing how it could scale. Like, just taking that first company from like 20,000 to over a million and it probably took me two months. Like, I could not even believe how this stuff scales. It's worldwide, it's incredible. Kathleen: Yeah. Now, shifting gears for a minute. You're doing some interesting work at Nerds Do It Better with pay-per-click and again, when I read your bio, it talked about leveraging statistical techniques developed at Harvard to get better results with pay-per-click marketing. Can you just start by kind of giving an overview of that and then maybe we can dig a little deeper into exactly what you're doing? Using statistical analysis to get better marketing results Adam: Sure. So, a little bit of this comes from that movie and book, did you ever see Moneyball by Michael Lewis? Kathleen: Oh yeah. Yeah. Adam: One of my favorite authors, but also a really good book. So, the book was about how the Oakland A's -- they're like a major league baseball team -- how their front office hired this big nerd status statistician who kind of noticed market inefficiencies and how players were value based. I mean I won't get too, too into it but it was basically like batting average versus on base percentage. What you do need to know is that they took people who are undervalued and using that, were able to make the, I think it was like the ALCS, and they were able to basically, like, win way more games than the Yankees. That's the basic premise of it. Kathleen: And now all of baseball uses those same techniques, is my understanding. Like, that's not only baseball, but like, many sports have essentially adopted that approach of like, looking at the data and using more data-driven decision making because of that situation, that case. And it was so successful. Adam: Yeah. That's exactly right. They ended up hiring the guy for the Red Sox and he won the 2004 World Series. Football does it. I mean, Amazon does it. A lot of my friends who are stock brokers or financial people do it. Like, data is kind of like the new oil. Like, if you can really look at it and look at it correctly, which is what I want to talk a bit about, you can do amazing things because so many people are looking at it incorrectly. So, I kind of want to talk about the difference between a digital marketing-based goal and a profit-based business goal. So, a lot of times I'll have a sales call and people will be like, "Well, how many clicks can you get me?" Like, you really can't pay your workers in clicks or Facebook likes. So, what I try to look at and optimize towards is towards profit-based business goals rather than digital and marketing-based conversion goals. So, what I mean by that is a couple of things. So, a lot of what I do is lead generation for lawyers, hormonal therapy doctors, just a lot of lead generation. But every lead isn't created equal, right? So, I might have say a search query in Google which gets me 10 leads at a cost per acquisition of say 10 bucks a lead versus another one that will get me a CPA of 30 buck a lead, however if we're optimizing towards profit-based business goals, which is really what we want to be optimizing towards, you can handle the higher cost per acquisition because you're actually optimizing towards your return on ads then return on investment, whatever you want to call it. So, I really try to look at the gap between digital and the real world because well, for one, my clients wouldn't be around all that long if I wasn't actually tying it to real world profit. But also, people need to realize that the internet is amazing but it's not magic. Like, you still have to have good solid business principals and look at the statistics that way. Does that make sense? Kathleen: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and I love when you talk about shifting your focus with pay-per-click to having that more profit-driven approach because one of the questions I get all the time, all the time, and I come from many years in the agency world. I owned an agency for 11 years, I then worked in another one for two. And I can't tell you how many times people have said, "What should my budget be for pay-per-click?" And they think that there's some magic like aggregate number like oh, you should spend $3,000 a month, right? And you're right, it's exactly the opposite approach that you should be taking. It should really be how much are you willing to spend to get a new customer, and if it's working, and you're getting new customers, then your budget should really be limitless because there's that return baked in. So, I don't know, I've always thought that was really interesting that people think in terms of budgets instead of cost per acquisition and return on ad spend. Adam: Yeah. I do, too. And with some of the bigger companies I work for, like, it has to be because people have to sign off on it. But I did want to say, because I promised you when I came on I'd tell you how to make this actionable, so, let's talk about this in AdWords because there's a whole, obviously, variety of networks, Facebook, AdWords. But I want to at least give people something to walk away with. Getting better results from Google ads Adam: So, in AdWords, your keywords aren't actually like what you think they are. So, your keyword that you tell Google that you want to search for might be "DUI lawyer." That's an example, I have a lot of lawyers. But if you don't have the match type, that could match for things like "cool movies about DUI lawyers." So, the first thing you want to do is in AdWords, go to the search query report to look at what you're actually showing for. So, that's the first step and if you do that alone, you're probably going to save yourself a lot of money. Now, what you want to do is you want to take the search queries, which again are not keywords, and if they're bad, make them what's called a negative so they don't show. So, say you're a DUI lawyer and your keyword is matching for "cool shows about DUI lawyers." That is not going to be a profitable keyword ever. That's just not going to work. So, you want to negative out shows, you might want to keep cool, like, that's fine. Usually for my lawyers they want "cheap" removed or "free" removed. And then you want to put it in its own ad group. So, if it's a good one, say "best DUI lawyer," now you can show up for that. Of course you can't put that in your ads. Anyone who is a lawyer knows that any claim has to be verifiable. That's a tip for you. Don't put "best" in there. Kathleen: Don't lie. Adam: Don't get disbarred. Yeah. I mean you can say "best plumber" but you can't say that for a lawyer because lawyers will get disbarred. Kathleen: Right. Adam: Okay but so then you do that and what you can actually do, which is really cool, and a bit more advanced, but I know you have more of an advanced audience, is if you use something called Zapier, and I use Unbounce but I believe you can just use Click Funnels as well. You can pull the actual name with the actual search query and then follow it through. Now this works really well for, one, seeing the quality of the leads. But if you have a client who you can track to the end, which you can't do with the DUI lawyer or really any of my lawyers, but you can do that with other types of clients. you can see the return on ad spend on an individual word. So, what I do then, is what's called alphabeta. If you have a keyword that's, say, delivering you like a three or four times return on ad spend, I make its own campaign, which is where you allocate budget and basically set it on unlimited. You know, you obviously want to talk to your clients about it, but if it's coming in at four times, and you have the individual search query and you know that that's the case, I say that's a great series of steps to do to look at statistical analysis to then increase your actual real world profit. How to track attribution for your PPC campaigns Kathleen: So, I want to back up for a second. You talked about using Zapier and following the keyword all the way through to profit. Can you just get, like dig a little bit deeper in there and explain exactly how you do that? Adam: Sure. So, Zapier is a way to connect different apps. And anything I recommend on this program, I don't get a cut of any of it because- Kathleen: And Zapier is great by the way. I will second that. I've used it a lot. Adam: Yeah. I want people to know that if I recommend something, I don't think I get a cut of any of these. It'd be cool if I did. I once got a free Unbounce t-shirt. Zapier connects different apps. So, the way that I do it is I use Unbounce, which you can pull in the keyword from a hidden form field. And, if you have your single keyword ad groups, which is what I recommended from the search query report when it's good versus bad, it'll pull it into a hidden form field in Unbounce. Now, I do all my reporting in Google Sheets. I love Google Sheets. Again, don't get a cut of it but I just think it's the most amazing program. I use a program called Supermetrics to pull in data in real time. Clients love that. I guess not exactly real time, it pulls it hourly because that's the max Google's API will let you and Facebook. But that way you're not filling out things all the time. Now, Supermetrics or Zapier can pull in the keyword, the name which will typically be an email, which you want to use as the unique identifier into Google Sheets. Now, what I- Kathleen: And this is assuming so they've converted on the form. So, you said you have a hidden form field which, I've done that before with some things but I want to make sure I'm understanding directly and that listeners are understanding correctly. So, you have an ad that's associated with a single keyword. Adam: Right. Kathleen: Are you directing them back from that ad to a landing page that has a form and that form is specific to that keyword and that's why you're able to have that hidden form field that says, "this is the keyword"? Or is it somehow using the referral URL to populate that? Adam: Yeah. So, in AdWords when you have, well, really any ads, and they're auto-tagged, which it's set to by default, it has something called a GC, I think it's LID. Or GCID, I can't remember off the top of my head. But that pulls in the keyword. It's actually how Google does it with analytics. You might wonder how where do they get these keywords from. That's how. And then in Unbouce, I have that just pull in. Now, one of the cool things in Unbounce you can do is called dynamic keyword insertion. So, if I don't know, like, I have a long distance medical transportation company as an example, as a client. If someone types in "Alzheimer long distance medical transportation", that will show up in the headline just because it pulls in from the keyword which is a really cool trick to do. That way you don't have to make a million different landing pages. Also makes it easier to split test. But the keyword itself, you can pull in variables from the URL into your form field. SO, I mean, if you've ever filled out a form like on the, say, the first page like, "Hey what's your name?" And I put Adam. The next page is like, "Hey Adam. We'd like to know whatever, x, y, z." That's how it does that. Kathleen: Cool. So, they convert on the form, there's a hidden field that's the keyword that associates their conversion with the keyword that first brought them in. So, sort of that first touch attribution modeling. And you're then dumping that data into Google Sheets, from there you're automatically pulling it into Supermetrics which by the way, if you're listening and you want to learn more about it, I did just interview Anna Shutko from Supermetrics. I think that's my last episode actually. So, check that out if you want to learn more about Supermetrics. We're bringing it all full circle. So, you pull it into Supermetrics and then where does it go from there? What happens next? Adam: Well, actually, so Supermetrics pulls into Google Sheets. Kind of think of it like a database. So, everything I do is a hub-and-spoke model which, I don't know how much you want to get into that but that's a business model where these hubs and then little spokes that come out of it for a reporting basically. So, as far as Supermetrics, that's just really going to tell you your ad spend. It can also tell you how much that actual cost per click is if that's something you're needing to know. With lawyers it is, you know it can be 40, 60 buck a click. So, you would see, all right, so this single keyword ad group which is what we started with, let say it spends, I don't know, you want to look at things in a two week period generally, $40 just as an example and you see you got three leads and two of them signed up or a $3,000 product. Probably a pretty good keyword. And you're probably not going to be blasting through Google's entire search inventory with whatever it was, 10 clicks, whatever the example was. So, what you would do then is looking at that, and what you again want to do is use the email as the unique identifier because people use different first names, you know, Mike, Michael, whatever. If it's the kind of, say, software as a service, you can track lifetime value of that. So, if someone is on for a long period of time, you can track lifetime value to a keyword. And you really just want to stay on top of the value versus just the digital part. And the digital part matters, right? Like it's not coming into your funnel otherwise. But you just, from the point where it's in a Google Sheet, you just look at the data. It's simple but hard to do if that makes sense. Like, kind of like doing a bunch of pushups. Like, you know you could do this but you have to stay on top of it. How often should you adjust your ad strategy? Kathleen: So, what does that look like? When you say "stay on top of it," is there a certain cadence that you maintain as far as, like, how frequently you're watching the data? How long do you let an ad run before you make a decision to, like, keep or cut? And based on whether it's working or not and how often are you making changes? Adam: We usually make changes weekly. Depends a little bit on the size of the account and the size of the keyword. So, what I try to do is have multi ad group testing so that there'll be two ads but they'll be variations. So it will be just two variations but the headline will be dynamic based on the keyword. And generally two landing pages as well. Now one thing to think about is a local maximum verses a, I forget what the other one is called. But local maximum is like, I could change the font, I could change the color, whatever, I can do these little minor changes. The other one is I can change the actual offer. Now, where you're going to see the biggest change is when you change the offer. So, if you're looking at someone coming in through the display network versus the search network, you're going to want a very different offer, right? So, the search network you can go right for a consultation, it's not problem at all. For the display network, I typically recommend you start off at least your funnel with an e-book or something directly of value that's a low threat. Because while you think, and I like to think as well that my sales calls are full of value, and they kind of are, realistically the person seeing is like, "Oh, I don't want to like stop what I'm doing to get on a stupid sales call." But they may want to do it for an e-book and again, this is a bit of compliance psychology. I don't know if you have show notes but I wrote an article in Search Engine Journal for this a couple of weeks ago. Click here to read Adam's article in Search Engine Journal   Kathleen: Yeah, I do, so I'll put the link in for sure. Adam: Perfect. And that article did really well because it makes a lot of sense. So, again we're talking about compliance psychology. So, if someone takes a small step, they're much more likely to take a bigger step. It's like, BJ Fogg out of Stanford is doing this really interesting study on tiny habits. If you floss one tooth, you're much more likely to floss all your teeth. Intuitively that makes sense. I don't know if, intuitively, it makes sense to have someone downloads an e-book they're much more likely to sign up for a consultation, but they are. So, I mean I don't know how else to say it. Like, that's the basic gist of what I do. So, I would look at if I was going to be changing, which I do change. I tend to change the offer much more readily than I would change say something small like the copy of an ad. Kathleen: It makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. There's a great book called Influence and if people are listening and they want to learn more about compliance psychology, like that book is fascinating. It's not really about marketing, it's about how to get people to do the things you want them to do and all the different ways you can approach it. And they talk about that kind of like the little yes before the big yes. They also talk about the principal of reciprocity. It's a fascinating story in there about the Hare Krishnas and how they were struggling to get donations and when they started giving out, I think it was flowers, all of a sudden their donations sky rocketed because people felt obligated. They got a flower they felt then obligated to donate. Even if they then threw the flower in the trash right after getting it, they would still donate. So, you're absolutely right. There's concrete scientific evidence that these strategies work. We just don't always apply them in marketing. Adam: They're like timeless strategies. So, that's what certain people ask me. They're like, "What network should I use?" They can all work if you look at the strategies. I actually noticed this, so I was in Santa Barbara for my wife's 40th and there are people on the streets with clipboards, you know? And they say, "Hey, do you have a second just to sign something that says you care about the environment?" And I watched this and people would sign it and then once they signed it, which is the small commitment step, the next step is well, will you donate money? So, at that point they can't say no they don't care about the environment because they've already signed it and taken the small steps. If you start to learn this stuff, you start to see it all around you. And it's like seeing the matrix, it's really cool. And you're right, that book is like when I'm not doing good in marketing and I need to really think things through, I almost always come back to that book and I say all right. He had like six principals. I'm like what is it? Is there not enough authority? Is there not enough reciprocity? And that's usually what the issue is, or it's too big a step which is an internet thing. But is it too big a step is usually the other problem. But I mean those are the ones I look out for. Adam's results Kathleen: Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah, I could talk for hours about that book and just, you hope people are using it for good, right? And not evil because it is so persuasive, some of those tactics. So, let's talk a little bit about this in practice. You've discussed, kind of, how you do this and how often you watch it and make changes. Can you give me some examples of how you've used this strategy with pay-per-click to improve results and how quickly those results maybe happen? Adam: Yeah. So I'll give you actually an example with that last client I was talking about. So, they do long distance medical transportation. So there's a lot of ways to phrase that. So, the first thing I did is I asked, "What is your definition of long distance?" Right? Because for me it might belike whatever, Massachusetts to New Hampshire or even within Massachusetts because I don't like driving all that much. But for them it was 300 miles, right? So, that's the first thing we did is define. And then we started looking at the keywords. So, for them, there's two different options for a lead because we're only running the AdWords search network. So again, Google has a whole bunch of networks, but this is the one that you type in and it will say, you know, your ad will show up based on what you type in. So, they can either have a phone call which they would prefer because we're talking about business metrics again. And phone calls are statistically much more valuable. That's because someone's right there ready to answer, right? So, sometimes if you write back to someone they'll be like, "I don't even remember filling this out." And I don't know what to tell you. Tough luck, that happens. So, try to get back to people as quick as you can. Or you can also do chat. But in their case, it is not a chat thing. It is either a form fill or a call. So, what we did is we ran this for about two months as it was. I cleaned up their pages and we looked at it coming in. So, because it's in Google Sheets, and essentially everyone knows Google Sheets, right? So, this isn't like when it comes into Salesforce and you have to show someone Salesforce which is such a pain. I just have them put was it a good lead, was it a bad lead and why? This is good for me for a couple reasons. One, it keeps them honest about their follow up. I say if you don't follow up with someone four times before they're a dead lead then we need to talk because leads aren't magic. But it also lets me know, right? So, if somebody types in say "long distance ambulance transportation," is it a better or worse lead? If someone types in "state to state medical transportation," is it a better or worse lead? So, we did that for about two months and then we took the search queries that were the most valuable and by that we decided which ones produce the most good leads. We took those, we added them as negatives to one campaign and we created a separate campaign called an alpha campaign and that alpha campaign essentially had an unlimited budget. And we had very specific single keyword ad groups in them that went to very specific landing pages and basically all of those leads are good leads. Now, we ran into search inventory issues because I believe the top one was in fact "long distance medical transportation" kind of like you'd expect. But that's fine. Like, if we cap out in Google, then there's really not too much we can do about that. We can move to Bing possible. But we're still getting them all sorts of really good leads with that. And then we just repeat the cycle. So, we continue looking and mining. Getting granular is really important with this. So, we wouldn't do a multi keyword ad group, it's all single keyword ad groups in what's called exact match. When it's an exact match it has to be that, it has to be in that order. The ads are very specific, they'll say in the headline, it'll say in the display link, the display URL which people don't always know is actually, I guess I would call like a vanity URL but you can put in "long distance medical transportation" actually send it somewhere else. And then for the actual landing page, that also says "long distance medical transportation" in the title tag as well as the headline. Kathleen: So, okay, so you did these ads, you looked to see what was working, you implemented, you refined the campaigns to really focus on the things that worked the best. What kind of results did they see from that? Adam: The return on ad spend has been very nice and I mean, I guess I don't really know off the top of my head. I mean, I could tell you- Kathleen: Like what would be a good return on ad spend? Benchmark that for me. Adam: That's tough to say. So, I guess like kind of anything else, it's tough to say. So, my job stops once they get a good lead, right? So, I do help people with sales training sometimes but if you can't close the leads that we both agreed are good qualified leads, then you need sales training or something along those lines. So, there have been cases, I think I have the quotes on my website where I've gotten people like six times the amount of leads within the first month, triple the amount of leads within the first month just by cleaning it up. But those ones who were definitely quotes up on my website were really good at closing. Like, they're lawyers who are just, they know how to do it. So, I guess my answer is, I would want to define that with a client. For me, anything over what your getting, like what you pay is a fine return on ad spend but you know, people do see two, three, four. In the case of contested divorce lawyers, it's much more than that because contested divorce, not that I am, but I know this from doing this for so much, is incredibly expensive. So, I try to find niches for me where the return is very good for the client because then they stick around for a while. Like, my first client sold cookies online. So, basically every click had to be sale and that was just, it was untenable. I couldn't do that. So, that's why I work with lawyers, long distance medical transportation, hormonal therapy doctors. The return for them can be very, very high, in the thousands. Kathleen: So, you're focused on how you can increase lead flow. Can you give me an idea of like how quickly lead flow increases and by what volume? Is it like 2x, 3x, 10x? Adam: Kind of depends on what I'm inheriting. So, typically I take over accounts. People come to me because their accounts aren't doing well. They either read something I wrote or of course I run my own ads, too. But typically they've already tried it. Like, it's very rare, when I started this people would be like, "I've never tried it before." But that's just not the case with most businesses now. So, it can be definitely two or three, sometimes even six or seven times if I can see immediately, look, your offer is just we use a letter F, and if we simply just change your offer, then you're going to do much better. Like, that's a slam dunk. If it's something more along the lines of like, "Hey, look, we need to dig in and we need to see is it the ads? What's going on here?" It can be a bit murkier because often times when people come to me they say, "Look, I feel like this isn't working." It's a red flag. It's probably not because they're not tracking it appropriately. I mean, and this stuff can be a pain to track, right? Tracking phone calls, how do you do that? Kathleen: Right. Adam: How do you track your leads? I mean, we're essentially doing the whole show on that. And it is, it's hard. It's really hard and I'm not taking anything away from anyone, like it is really hard to do. But it's really necessary to do. Kathleen: Yeah. It's so funny, listening to you talk about like how you deliver the leads and it's up to the client to close it. I have a funny kind of anecdote around that. As I said, I owned an agency for 11 years and I actually had a second start up for a little while that was an online sales training business. And I started it because it was all inspired by this one client who I worked with for six months and he was early stage. And in a very short amount of time were able to deliver a very large volume of marketing qualified leads, his definition. And he didn't close a single one of them and he called me really angry and fired us. And I was like, "Wait, I delivered the leads you asked for. Like you still have to close them." And he was like, "I didn't get any customers." Like I can't deliver customers. I'm just your marketer. And so, I actually had this other company that I started that was to train people on how to follow up on those kinds of leads. So, I just want to say amen that that is totally true, that marketing is not a magic bullet for revenue, you still have to understand how to sell. Adam: And I tell people, and this is really important. Like, I sucked at sales calls, too at first. Like, my first couple sales calls were like George Costanza level awkward. Like, I got off and I was like "oh, that was bad for everyone." I took courses and courses and courses and courses and now they typically close but I think a lot of times people are used to hot leads coming in. So, say as an example, like I have dentists, you know, it's very easy to close someone when their friend is like, "Hey, you should check out my dentist," right? And that's what they're used to. But that's a really small, like you're' not going to get that many clients. Whereas cold leads which are what essentially paid search is, you have to do it differently and you have to really kind of see where the problem is and get them talking. And it's just like you said, like yeah, when that client cans you, it sucks, right? That's definitely happened to me. And that's kind of why I'm so paranoid. Not paranoid, what's the better word? So upfront about it where I say, "Hey, look, I'll get you the leads," I won't take on anyone I don't really think I can do it. And at this point I've done it so many times. But if you can't close them then like what's the point of even doing this? Kathleen: Yeah. Adam: You know, you need to follow up. And I found that in the bigger companies, maybe the person I'm interacting with isn't the person who follows up. Like, as an example with the lawyers, a lot of them are, what are they called? Paralegals at the front desk and they're not incentivized. Like, they don't want to call back people. So, it's a matter of really tracking it and having people fill in, like literally fill in, like I call them back at 1pm. Because I found if I didn't do that, well once I did do that rather, all of a sudden the leads got a lot better. Kathleen: Right. Adam: Which means they were calling them back. Kathleen: Yeah. I have a friend who is in the sales training world and he always talked about, like, you referred to them as hot leads. He always called those layups. He was like, "That's a layup, not a lead." Like, you have to work your leads. Adam: That's exactly right. Kathleen: Layups come to you and they want to buy from you and if you don't close them, shame on you because it's really easy. But yeah. Adam: I mean that's exactly what I talk about with the internet not being magic. Like, people think that look, we're going to post this, it always starts with, "Hey, I'm going to make a web page and everyone is going to come." Then everyone doesn't come. "Well, I'm going to spend money on Facebook." And then nothing happens. And then you know, I get them the leads and then if they don't know how to close them, or if no one warns them ahead of time, it kind of does them a disservice. Like, you know, that's why I'd rather work with a good business that wants to be great than like a business that's essentially bombing and I'm like their only hope. So, yeah, that's exactly it. If they're used to layups, you kind of got to get used to a jump shot from my sporty analogy. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, I love this whole approach and I appreciate you sharing a lot of these details. Shifting gears for a minute, there's two questions I always ask my guests and I'm really curious what you're going to say about them. The first is, we talk a ton about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a specific person or company that you think is really knocking it out of the park with inbound these days? Adam: Yeah, I think Drift is. And I will say, like, this is fair. I did just write an article for them, but I wrote an article for them because I found out about them and their book Conversational Marketing blew me away. So, I wrote to the head guy Dave, who actually just exited. I was like, "This is incredible. Like, I want to write an article about it." And again, they're a company I don't get a cut of, but the idea of it is that you should be hitting people basically as fast as you can. So, they're all about this chat bot which I actually have on my site. But their inbound marketing is just like mind blowing. It's just such good articles and such good content. Kathleen: They are the company that is named the most when I get answers to that question. And we actually had Dave Gerhardt as a guest on the podcast so I'll put a link to that interview in the show notes for anybody listening who wants to check it out. It's a really interesting story about leading with brand and some of the backstory on how Drift has used marketing to grow. Adam: Yeah, he's the guy I was referencing who actually just left. Kathleen: Yeah. Adam: I don't know what he's doing but he left. Kathleen: He hasn't said yet. He's starting somewhere new in January. Keeping it on the DL. I know. Second question is the world of digital marketing is changing so, so quickly. How do you personally stay up to date on everything? Adam: I'm kind of obsessed with education so I get here at five in the morning everyday and my first hour and a half is education always. And that's what I think is something really important just like, Adam piece of advice, right? I don't have any kids but if I did, I would tell them this. You know, you might have all the advantages and disadvantages in the world, right? But you can always show up on time and you can always learn stuff. Like, the only difference between me and everyone else is that I got obsessed with learning this stuff and I just do it. Like, you know, people are like, "It's so hard." I don't see anyone else here at five in the morning. So, it's like, you know, you're going to have as many advantages or disadvantages as you want, but like you can always learn the stuff. And I've spent more money on education than I would ever recommend anyone else to do actually. Kathleen: Same here. Adam: But it's worth it. Kathleen: Yeah. And the good thing actually in the world of marketing is that there are so many free educational resources. Like, so many that I don't think it's possible to exhaust them all. So, I don't think budget is ever a deterrent as far as staying up to date. There's so much you can do with no money if you just put the time in. Adam: Yeah. You got to put your excuses aside and just think of them as a challenge. So, you might say, "Look, I don't know how to make a landing page." Well guess what? I didn't either at one point. So, I went to the Unbounce Academy or whatever they called it years ago and learned how to make a marketing page. Like, I didn't know how to do things on any of the networks at one point. Like, I wasn't born on Facebook. When I was born I don't even know if the internet existed. I'm 37 so like it probably didn't. Adam: So, yeah, I would say to anyone who's interested, like, first read that book by Cialdini, we were talking about Principals of Influence to learn marketing. Like, that's basically a marketing degree. And then just do it. Be willing to lose some money, be willing to look stupid, and do it. Like, that's the only way to do it is to do it. Kathleen: Yeah. I love it. Just do it. It's like the Nike slogan but for marketing. Adam: Exactly. Exactly. How to connect with Adam Kathleen: Well, Adam, if somebody wants to learn more or connect with you and ask a question about this, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Adam: You can always go to NerdsDoItBetter.com. Like I said, we got that little Drift bot there. Or you can reach out to me on Twitter, it's definitely where I'm most active is @AdamLundquist. I also got a bunch of articles coming out to look out for in Search Engine Journal, PPC Hero, Drift. Kathleen: You're a busy guy. Adam: One more but I can't remember. There are more. You know what to do next... Kathleen: That's awesome. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. So, definitely head there to check it out and connect with Adam. And if you're listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new please head to Apple Podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review because that's how more people discover us. And I would be grateful for that. Kathleen: And if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, as always, tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. Thank you so much Adam. This was really fun. Adam: Yeah. Thanks for having me.