Podcasts about paso robles

Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage, discuss key grape and wine industry trends, from oversupply and vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts, and future trends, emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. 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Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. [00:00:11] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with the Vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard, and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Audra Cooper, director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, central Coast Grape Broker At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:41] they discuss key grape and wine industry trends from oversupply to vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts and future trends. Emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. [00:01:01] If you love infield education and are on California Central Coast on April 25th, 2025, please join us at the fungicide spring tailgate hosted at Cal Poly. In San Luis Obispo, California, Dr. Shunping Ding will share updated results from a 2024 study on fungicide programs using bio fungicides and their impact on grape yield and berry chemistry. Then we'll visit the Cal Poly Vineyard to explore new powdered mildew management technologies and discuss fungicide spraying programs. With farmers from throughout the central coast to register, go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes. [00:01:44] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper. She's Director of Grape Brokerage with Turrentine Brokerage. And also, Eddie Urman, who's Central Coast Grape Broker with Turrentine Brokerage as well. And thanks for coming back. This is part two of a, of a, of an episode here. So, I really appreciate you folks making time to come back. [00:02:00] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us back. We're excited to join you once again. [00:02:04] Eddie Urman: Yeah, thanks for having us. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So Audra, let's start with you. In our last conversation . [00:02:17] And that was kind of where we left it that then started a conversation amongst the three of us afterward. We were like, okay, there's a lot more to talk about here. So let's do it. [00:02:24] Can you give some examples of what you mean by getting ahead of changes? [00:02:30] Audra Cooper: I think it's a sound business strategy to always try and stay ahead of the curve regardless of what component of business or what industry you're in, right? It's just a, a good strategy to have and a good philosophy to have. It's really important in this industry to continue to stay relevant and in order to stay relevant, you have to stay within the trend or ahead of the trend. [00:02:51] Being behind the eight ball is, never a good thing . You need to be ahead of the curve. A good example of that is sustainable certification. And we still have these discussions on the daily and Eddie, you can talk to this too about how often we have to talk about if you're not sustainably certified, you are cutting your buyer pool, probably roughly in half, as I mentioned in the previous podcast, and you're limiting yourself. [00:03:18] And the majority of the practices, most growers are probably already doing, and they're just not going through the certification process and getting that done. And if you look back a little over a decade ago, it was something that wineries were paying, you know, 25, 50 per ton more for, they were paying a premium. [00:03:36] And then it became more of a, this is really nice to have. And so more and more growers We're doing it as a point of differentiation in their marketing. And now today it's almost a necessity. It's no longer something that's necessarily going to get you a premium price for your grapes. It's also not necessarily a point of differentiation any longer. [00:03:55] It's a need to have. [00:03:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Eddie, do you have anything to add to that? [00:03:59] Eddie Urman: No, I think that's a great example. , Audra offered up. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: So there's, trends around that, and there's a lot of certifications now, and I agree, I think a lot of folks don't need to be afraid of whatever the certification is, because you're probably doing a lot of those things already, a lot of common practices. [00:04:13] I think that's an interesting insight that now it's kind of becoming expected or certainly a requirement for a lot of wineries. [00:04:19] Let's talk about changes in acreage. That's where we left off last time when we were talking about the difference between vineyard removals, which have been suggested, recommended, et cetera, by a number of folks in the industry as we just are in oversupply period I've heard estimates that we may have 30 to 35, 000 acres of grapes, more than we need based on current demand. [00:04:40] how accurate do you think that is? , how bad is it on the supply side? [00:04:45] Audra Cooper: Well, I think you have a couple parts to that question, right? Let's dissect that a little bit and start with, we just got back from the Unified Wine Grape Symposium in Sacramento, and of course, during the State of the Industry, Jeff Bitter gave his annual synopsis of the nursery survey that they do annually on how many vines were sold, and they do a, A lot of data work in regards to what were removals and his number that he reported over the last two years was 37, 500 acres have been removed from the state of California. [00:05:15] He believes based on their research that another 50, 000 acres need to be removed to reach the point of balance, assuming that consumption stays at its current rate or drops just a tiny bit. [00:05:29] And when we look at our information internally, now we don't do a survey like Allied does, but we're tracking a lot of information, both with our winery partners as well as our grower partners in regards to who's doing what, and our number's a little bit higher, but we also go back four years technically going back to 2022, our number for the state of California is closer to about 50, 000 acres that have been removed, and, you know, I would argue that If consumption stays flat, certainly there will need more removals, but I don't know about 50, 000 acres more. [00:06:04] That seems like an awful lot of acres that need to be removed. If his numbers are right, that would put us back to Basically global recession numbers, which would be around 500, 000 acres bearing.  [00:06:16] Craig Macmillan: right. in the Grape Crush Report, which is an annual report that's put out by, uh, California Department Of Food and Agriculture and the National Agricultural Statistics Service, there is a non bearing acres section in there, which I always find very interesting. Are we able to glean anything from that data in terms of what's been sold, what we think's gonna go back in, et cetera? [00:06:39] I want to put a timestamp on this. So this is being recorded first week of February, 2025. So the unified was in 2025. The report that's coming out is going to be for the 2024 year. [00:06:48] What can we learn from that non bearing acreage report?  [00:06:51] Audra Cooper: So there's two different reports. the acreage report will be coming out a little bit later in the year. We're going to have our crush report come out on February 10. I think you can glean two pieces of information, but both are very similar. And that is how much acreage has actually been removed and how light the crop truly was, particularly in the coastal regions for 2024. [00:07:10] And so when we look at, for example, a 23 bearing and non bearing acreage information from the state of California they're reporting 446, 000 acres of bearing wine grapes. And if you take that at, say, 7 tons an acre, that's 3. 12 million tons. And we know with certainty at 7 tons an acre, That acreage seems pretty low. [00:07:35] It doesn't seem realistic. So unfortunately, because it's a voluntary report when it comes to bearing versus non bearing acres, I do think that the state's probably about two years behind on real data trends. And so unfortunately right now, if you were to use that report as, you know, an analysis of the industry, you'd probably be a bit off. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: got it, got it. Are there trends in what varieties are coming out and what varieties are going back in? Because that's often been the driving force for removals and replants, is chasing the marketplace. Are we seeing that kind of thing in California? [00:08:11] Audra Cooper: Yeah, you know, I'll I'll touch on this a little bit and then turn it over to Eddie. It's, it's really difficult to predict in our industry how and what and when to plant, right? Because you are following a trend and a trend that you're going to be lagging behind in trying to meet because of the amount of time it takes to get a crop and a crop that is productive. [00:08:31] And so oftentimes we're abridged, Yeah. Yeah. too far behind in regards to consumer trends. When we look at the central coast as a whole, there's certainly some segmented dynamics on what's being removed versus planted. And, you know, a good place to start, of course, is Paso. Eddie, do you want to talk a little bit more about that? [00:08:51] Eddie Urman: Yeah we do see some trends of, varieties, being pushed out more frequently than others. You know, for the Central Coast, a couple that come to mind are, Zin, Pinot Noir Merlot is one that historically came out. If it's still there, still going out, and then more specifically, old vines is probably the more specific categories. You are seeing a lot of Cab being pushed, that are old vines, but likely to go back into Cab if it gets replanted. [00:09:17] Audra Cooper: that's an interesting trend, because when we're looking at what was purchased based on the survey numbers that Jeff Bitter reported, he was talking about 12, 000 acres being planted based on their survey in 2024, and an overwhelming percentage was still red varietals, which really bucks the trend on what we're seeing observing boots on the ground. [00:09:41] What we've mainly been seeing planted are more alternative whites and niche whites like Grenache Blanc, Pinot Grigio Astrotico, you know, very specific alternative whites in which they're trending with DTC and kind of smaller producers. Certainly we still see some redevelopment of Cabernet as well as Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, not so much on the red blender side or Merlot. [00:10:06] Those seem to be being pulled out and not redeveloped. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: Are we seeing any changes or trends around Okay, I'm pushing out Cabernet. I'm going to replant Cabernet. , am I going to replant the same amount of Cabernet? Am I using this as an opportunity to plant new ground? Do we have any information about that kind of thing? [00:10:24] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, to give you hard data would be challenging. I don't know that anyone really has, a hard, fast calculation of what they do and don't do in regards to, the varietal makeup of a redevelopment. And I do want to clarify, I think there's a common misconception, particularly in the coastal regions that This is new net acreage. [00:10:43] It's not new net acreage. A lot of this is redeveloped acreage, but it will be higher in productivity based on, you know, better vines, healthier vines, better spacing, new farming technology, and so forth. And so we'll have new net supply based off that acreage. In full production. When you look at the new developments, though, and it was save paso cab, for example, it's really difficult to say, Oh, well, let's do 50 percent cab and 50 percent red blenders. [00:11:14] I mean, that's a tough decision to make. And you're really making a a pretty risky bet. I think for most people, they're going to plant to the site and also to the trend in the market. And so oftentimes, for example, again, Paso Cab, you're still going to have Cabernet largely go back in on those redevelopments. [00:11:31] When you look at Santa Barbara County, I think they're diversifying a little bit more than they had been in the past. You're not largely just Chardonnay Pinot Cab. You're also seeing alternative reds and whites being planted in that area. Monterey County, when you look at that region, it tends to be a little bit more mixed bag, but still largely chardonnay then in the southern Monterey County area, cabernet and red blenders. [00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Eddie? [00:11:56] Eddie Urman: As far as the rate of what's going back in the ground, you know, in acres. I think as far as East Paso goes Monterey County, Santa Barbara County, we're seeing contraction as far as more acres coming out that are going back. The only area we do see more plantings that are new, it is in the West side of Paso. And it's substantial. I think there's a good amount of acres that have gone in the West side. [00:12:17] Being from the growing side, I think we always wanted to diversify away from Cabernet and Paso Robles specifically, but the reality is the majority of people still want to buy Cabernet. So if anything, I'm worried that growers expect other varieties to try to diversify their portfolio that might not match the demand. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. And speaking of demand. , we're talking about land and grapes, what's the current state of the, the bulk wine market where you'd expect a lot of the sovers to go where are we kind of at and what do you think are going to be the impacts on the bulk wine market with the replanting? [00:12:53] Audra Cooper: currently right now, listed available with us is about 28 million gallons. We anticipate that it will climb to probably 30, maybe past 30 million gallons at the peak of listing this year, which is typically early summer. In large part, that's still 2023 vintage. However, we do still have some 21, 22, and of course now new 24 is being listed. [00:13:18] The rate of listing is not being eclipsed by the rate of, you know, attrition decline in regards to bulk wine being removed from the market, whether that's through sales or higher and better use internally for those who are listing it. So we still have an off kilter balance there and certainly dramatically an oversupply and that dynamics likely to continue for the next couple of years until we see consumption increase and, and therefore increasing demand for new products. [00:13:45] Typically when we've seen these large increases in availability, what's gotten us out of it is the negotiants who are developing new brands, particularly when we look back to the premiumization sector. We saw a lot of middle tiers, you know, the likes of Duckhorn and Joel Gott and several others who were growing programs that they may have had for a couple of years, but they were very small and they've broadened those to other Appalachians or California and went to the bulk market first to kind of grow those programs before they started grape contracting. [00:14:16] So we're going to need to start seeing that trend in order to clean that market up. [00:14:19] Craig Macmillan: And so that's, that's basically good news, you think, for the bulk wine supply going down the road. [00:14:23] Audra Cooper: I think. In the future, it is in the short term. It's rather painful to have that amount of availability, right? We've been tracking this for the better part of three decades, and there's never been a single calendar year in which we've carried this amount of inventory, particularly going into last harvest, it was the highest inventory we'd ever seen in our tracking. [00:14:44] Keep in mind that this is what's listed available for us. This is not going out and taking inventory of what everyone has in tank that they're not necessarily going to bottle or they don't have a program for. So you can easily maybe double that number and that's what the likely availability is. [00:15:03] Craig Macmillan: Eddie what do you think is going to happen with pricing on on bulk wine? Yeah, I know that you're a specialized in grapes. But obviously those growers are concerned about what's going to happen to those grapes. From the grower side, how attractive is it right now to turn product into bulk wine, do you think? [00:15:21] Eddie Urman: I would say it's very, very, very much not attractive. Uh, we would. Not advocate for that in most scenarios for growers at this time regarding bulk pricing, you know, bulk wine, obviously we have bulk people who have better insight than Audrey, but in general, it's not going to be good. We don't, we don't foresee an increase in price as. we're obviously seeing an increase in supply of bulk wine, that typically is going to still have more downward pressure on price. And as far as growers bulking wine, it's, I think, a very risky game right now. You know, bulk wine does have a life expectancy, to Audra's point earlier. And, know, if you bulk it now, you have to sell it eventually to make your money back. [00:16:02] And then on top of that, you have to carry those costs with today's interest rates.  [00:16:06] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. So, prices for bulk wine right now, I'm guessing have been on the decline for probably a couple of years. Is that accurate? [00:16:13] Audra Cooper: Yeah, that's an accurate statement. If I were to really think about how long they've been on the decline, I would say probably mid, mid calendar year 2023 is when we start to see the downturn of the market be very, you know, impactful on pricing and overall demand. And of course, increasing inventory is really when that trend started. [00:16:34] I want to kind of go back to what Eddie was talking about regarding you know growers making bulk wine and and how risky that is, you know, we have a saying internally and it's so Elementary, but it's so applicable to these times. Your first loss is typically your best loss or your least loss and so it's really important when you're looking at alternative to market Whether or not you're actually going to be able to optimize how much investment you have in that product, and more often than not, when you're making grapes into bulk wine as a grower, you're not going to have the wherewithal to compete with a competitive set, other wineries, or large growers whose business models incorporate making bulk wine as a producer. [00:17:15] So you really end up being on the losing end of that game. [00:17:19] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you see price pressure on growers? Are prices being negotiated down or contracts being changed or not renewed? And if so, does that vary by region, do you think? I know you specialize in the Central Coast, but just from what you know. [00:17:34] Eddie Urman: I think for the Central Coast, it's easy to say that there's still unfortunately more cancellations or evergreens being called and their contracts being executed. There is some activity of people being willing to look at stuff and even make offers, which is good news, but typically it's at a lower pricing. [00:17:51] Craig Macmillan: This is for both of you if I'm a grower and I'm facing this situation both what I can get for my price and then also what the chances are of me selling my stuff on the bulk market, is this a situation where we're maybe better off not harvesting all the crop or mothballing some vineyards for the short term? [00:18:08] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the less we pick this upcoming season that doesn't have a home, you know, the better off if it's picked for, uh, a program where it's actually needed, that's great, but bulking one on spec or taking in more fruit because it's cheap or very, you know, very low cost is not going to be a good thing. good overall thing for the industry. [00:18:30] As far as mothballing, we've talked a lot internally. This is where the conversation came in last time about making tough decisions and being intentional about how you're going to farm or you plant going into the season as a grower is, you know, mothballing is very controversial. [00:18:45] I think for our team, as far as whether it truly works and can you truly come back after it's done, if you're mothballing a Vineyard that's at the end of his life expectancy. You're probably just delaying your pain one more year. Cause it probably will not come back. If you're mothballing a five year old vineyard, maybe it's something that's a different story, but a real tough decision. [00:19:06] Mothballing a young producing vineyard most people are not in that situation. [00:19:12] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I want to expand a little bit on the, the mothballing and not harvesting fruit. I think it's really important that, you know, while this is a rather negative time in the industry and it's really easy to be very pessimistic. I do want to be optimistic about the needed outcomes and the solutions and the pain that's still rather prevalent in our industry to get kind of to the other side of being healthy. [00:19:36] I do want to be optimistic about some of the newer plantings that we've seen basically since 2012. There is a lot of new to middle aged vineyards that I really hope continue to stay in the ground. They need to stay in the ground because they are the highest and best fit for some of the newer style products in wine. [00:19:54] And we need to be able to continue to keep our wine quality elevated. And so while certainly there's vineyards that need to be removed or, or mothballed and taken out of production, there's also the flip side of that where there's a huge need for some of the. better vineyards and the more sought after vineyards or the vineyards that are priced right for the program that they're going into. [00:20:16] So this is kind of a double edged sword in the sense that yeah, we need plenty of production to be pulled out of the supply chain, but at the same time there's a huge need for very specific supply. So I want to be very careful in classifying those items. [00:20:30] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that brings me to my next question Audra there must be regional differences. Yeah. Yeah. In these patterns, I would assume some areas maybe are a little bit more protected from this kind of contraction or, or expansion over supply and others probably really bearing the brunt. I would guess. Do you see patterns at the state level? [00:20:48] Audra Cooper: I see patterns at the state level, but I can even bring it down to the central coast, even so far down to like even Paso right now. And Eddie and I have been talking about this a lot. You know, we saw a huge uptick in available inventory for east side AVA Cabernet and red blenders and even some of the white. Over the last two years, particularly last year in 2024, [00:21:11] and now we're seeing that dynamic shift from the east side climbing and available inventory. And now the west side is where we're seeing most of our listings come from over the last couple of weeks. And so we're now seeing it kind of push into more of the premium luxury tiers as far as this oversupply and the contraction and the kind of the pain points. [00:21:29] And so we are moving through the channels. Which I know again is, is difficult to hear and it's a very negative position to be in the industry, but it's also a sign that the market and the supply chain is moving through what it needs to move towards in order to come out the other side of this thing on a healthier end. [00:21:48] We comment on this a lot where. You know, it's going to get worse, dramatically worse for a short period of time before it gets better. And we're starting to see kind of the beginning of that position. [00:21:58] Craig Macmillan: What about the San Joaquin Valley? San Joaquin Valley? [00:22:02] Audra Cooper: is actually typically leading the charge in regards to our market, particularly our supply aspect of things, both in grapes and bulk wine. And so when we see A retraction in our industry or oversupply. We typically see it in the interior of the central valley first And when we see kind of a new, Growth stage we see it over there first as well And so they're ahead of us by one to two years Currently and then it kind of follows into the central coast and then up into the north coast and what i've seen Historically when you look back at markets and you look at kind of the time horizons of these things how? Long they live and what pushes the momentum of these markets. You'll typically see it last longer in the Central Valley, tiny bit shorter in the Central Coast and a lot shorter in the North Coast. The North Coast usually doesn't see quite as long of a pain period as the other two regions do. And there's, there's a lot of reasons that we probably shouldn't get into today because it would be a whole nother topic of conversation. [00:23:00] But I do think that the Central Coast right now has got another challenging year ahead of it. But also I think that the on ramp to a more positive industry is a little shorter than what I think people are giving credit for too because a lot of the work is being done, we just got to get through these major pain points first. [00:23:19] Craig Macmillan: We know that consumers drive demand for wine and hence wine grapes but are there other economic forces or political forces or regulatory forces that put pressure on this grape market aside from just consumer demand? [00:23:32] Eddie Urman: again, but 1 of big 1s is, put, it could put pressure to the positive or negative on our industry. We don't really know yet. It's still to be determined. when I read this question, the other thing came to mind to me is, is from a grower's perspective ensuring that you're growing. The compatible correct grapes for your region or varieties or it's staying within where you need to be. If the market for, for example, Chardonnay went through, went to the moon, it doesn't mean everyone in Paso should plant Chardonnay, [00:24:00] even though that's the hot variety, right? [00:24:02] It wouldn't be the best variety for most areas of Those are some of the quicker things that come to my mind. I'll probably elaborate. [00:24:10] Audra Cooper: I think to expand upon that, certainly regulations regarding, you know, water usage and irrigation is is a huge factor. And, and Eddie, you could probably do an entire podcast on that particular topic. And I'm sure that you guys have actually, Craig in addition to that, you really look at the economic environment in which people are growing grapes and producing wine. [00:24:32] And the economy of it is getting, you know, more and more difficult. The margins are getting much smaller. You can argue that more often than not people are taking losses year over year. And that puts a ton of pressure on their cash flow. In addition to that, when you look at the lending environment as well, that's become a lot more say, non conducive to being able to continue with business. In a lot of cases, [00:24:57] we have a handful of clients, if not more, who are questioning, do I prune because I don't necessarily have the same operational loan that I've had over the last couple of years and I've been taking low grape prices in order to survive to the following year, but you can only do that so long before it catches up to you. [00:25:14] And then we have another group or another segment of clientele who will prune, but may end up having to throw in the towel sometime, you know, mid summer or sooner because they don't have enough capital to continue with the grapes or you know, not sold. And then you look at the producer side on the winery side, and, and they too are getting crunched. [00:25:32] You know, we often talk about how low grape prices are, but we forget that, you know, wineries are getting crunched on their bottle price as well in order to nationally distribute. You know, what you see on the shelf as a price point does not necessarily mean that that's a price point to that producer. So the economies of this industry are getting more and more difficult every single year. [00:25:52] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, especially, are you seeing trends towards things like mechanization to try to keep costs down? [00:25:58] Eddie Urman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean mechanization and then automation and the vineyard or two, the , you know, hottest topics so here. And people were definitely making the efforts to try to implement those as they come available. The difficult thing can be oftentimes it's investment in equipment. That's very expensive and you have to truly consider is it going to, is it economically feasible to invest in that equipment and what's the payout time going to be based upon the amount of acres you're farming or how many passes you can do with that piece of equipment. So we're, we're seeing it happen, which is great. [00:26:31] It's innovation and it's heading us in the right direction, but at this point, a lot of it is still quite expensive and not everyone could participate for cost reasons. Yeah. [00:26:41] Craig Macmillan: Going forward, we've talked about this a little bit in terms of how different regions are kind of more paying for longer and some a little bit less and et cetera. And this then translates into the wines that are out there. Audra, you'd mentioned you know, the potential of negotiants to come in and help to alleviate the market. [00:26:59] That's definitely what happened in the nineties from my memory. We saw a lot of negotiate brands pop up because there was a plentiful supply for some of those years. Are there things that companies or government or grower associations, are there things that organizations could do to advise growers or help move people in the right direction in terms of kind of what they need to do? Is the viticulture consulting community? Taking these things into account Eddie, let's start with you, [00:27:29] Eddie Urman: that's a big question. there are plenty of people giving good advice in the industry and growers do have resources to reach out to, but it's very difficult to hear information that doesn't. Align with what you would like to do, right? So taking out our emotions from this from the equation and say, okay, does it really make sense to do this or to do that? Where where's that going to leave us and is that going to be in a position? To move forward in a better, know in a better new industry or new, you know New time in this industry when things rebound there's information out there, but it is difficult extremely difficult right now for growers and wineries to make decisions [00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. That's the challenge when you have something like this, where it's individual decisions that lead to mass outcomes. It's hard for me as an individual to say, okay, well, I'm going to do my part. I'm going to keep these 10 acres out of production. Especially when I can see that I could sell to somebody. It's a tough go. Go ahead, Audra. [00:28:24] Audra Cooper: So I'm gonna go off on a tangent here a little bit. [00:28:26] Craig Macmillan: do. [00:28:28] Audra Cooper: I don't know, you might not welcome this one. So, you know, some people know this about me. I'm a pretty big Tony Robbins fan. And, You know, for some of you who don't know who that is, he's a self help guru that does a lot of different events and has written a lot of books and he has a philosophy and a saying that he utilizes through most of events, which is where focus goes, energy flows. [00:28:51] And unfortunately, we have not done the best of jobs being positive about ourselves in the industry, out there in the media, that ultimately is consumed by the masses. And so, I've been on this huge bandwagon about, when we're talking to the media, obviously we need to be rooted in reality, but we need to be as optimistic as we can about who we are and what our why is. [00:29:16] And I think oftentimes when we have these downturns, and this one's a pretty deep one, admittedly. That's the rooted in reality, right? But in these downturns, we tend to turn very, very pessimistic and we fail to remember that to some degree or another. We've been here before, and there have been a lot of innovations and activities and work and leadership that have pulled us out of it, and so we need to remember our history a little bit, I think would be my recommendation there, and I think a lot of the associations do a great job In reminding everyone what the historical background is and in some of our why Paso Robles Wine Country Alliance is a great example of what an association can do for a region on a national and international level. [00:30:03] I will continue to sing their praises because I think they've done a beautiful job in what they've done over the last 15 years. When you look at You know, what's happening from a government and regulation standpoint, you know, we have to band together as a community and be loud voices. We can't just rely on our neighbor or our representative to be our representative voice. [00:30:25] We need to make sure that we continue to be out there and loud. The other thing too is. We have a community, but we have a tendency to not keep collaboration consistent, and I would love to see our industry collaborate a little bit more, particularly on social media. I know that there's a lot of people probably listening to this right now thinking, why is social media even a remote solution? [00:30:48] But the amount of consumption from the younger generation that are now of drinking age that have not adopted wine as a beverage of choice, consume a huge amount of social media, more than they do TV, more than they do reading, more than any other culture. aspect of information gathering or any other platform that's available to them. [00:31:10] And we have an opportunity to band together and collaborate and change the algorithm regarding wine on social media. And I love to see us do that. We haven't done it. And there's various methods of doing that. And again, could probably be another podcast. I'm by no means the foremost expert on that, but our collaborative efforts. [00:31:27] We'll just drop that because I don't even remember exactly [00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: I think that's sound advice And it's always been a challenge. We do have some statewide Organizations that have that mission. They have a lot on their plate But I agree with you. I think that that is definitely the route or it seems to be the route There's more more research coming out that's showing that Not just the time but also like where people get their news You know, it shows you how important that is to them, how important , that venue is to them. [00:31:55] Eddie Urman: 1 of the things for me to extrapolate on that a little bit. What Audra was talking about is unified at the industry hot topics. Um. Rock mcmillan talked for a minute. The ceo of silicon bank about the wine industry Not itself and taking market share from itself, but taking market share from wine from beer from spirits They've clearly done that to us. [00:32:18] I mean It's a competition. It is what it is, and we've not done a great job marketing To younger, younger generations, everybody knows that everybody repeats it, but what are we going to do about it? And how can we as an industry figure out how to do a better job getting people exposed to wine, getting people to enjoy wine? [00:32:37] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I like that, Eddie. It's time to get aggressive and it's time to re enter wine in the conversation of culture and being part of the daily lifestyle. We've let it kind of fall by the wayside and it's time to get aggressive about what wine can be and was and should be here in the near future. [00:32:57] Craig Macmillan: right. You'd mentioned, you know, what's happened in the past. Audra, are there lessons that we learned that we are forgetting from 20 years ago or lessons that we should have learned 20 years ago that might help us now? [00:33:11] Audra Cooper: it's, that's an interesting question, and I think it is a great question of merit, because history does tend to repeat itself I think we need to get better about predictive trends, and I don't know what the answer is to that, I just know that we need to do that and again, we, we kind of talked about it early in the podcast here that, you know, it's really hard to plant a trend, because you're usually behind the eight ball on it. [00:33:38] And I think that we need to get better about how we plan for the future. I think we forget that, you know, Robert Mondavi and the Gallo's and, and countless others who came before us really went out. To the masses and marketed wine, not just their brands or their programs. They were out there to make sure that they were representing the wine industry and the product that we produce first and foremost. [00:34:06] And so I think there's that element. It's not necessarily missing, but it's not loud enough and it's not aggressive enough. And so we definitely need some leaders to come forward in that regard and really push the initiatives. That we fought so hard to stay in business for. When you look back historically to, I think we have a tendency to kind of do the blame game a little bit. [00:34:28] Like, you've planted too much over there on the coast and you've removed too much of the northern interior and you're charging too much up there in the north coast. And the reality is there's a place. For everyone to play and instead of being the competitive set that we are, again, to Eddie's point that Rob McMillan made as state of the industry, we should be looking at how do we take market share from our competitors, which are beer and spirits, RTDs, and so forth, not from each other. [00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like it's a time when we need to see some new leadership step up or some folks to take leadership roles which is always kind of scary. [00:35:08] Audra Cooper: It is. It's, it's, you know, here's the, the beautiful thing about emotion though. It's usually a call to action. So if we get scared enough. Someone will do something and I think we're just about there, and, and there's probably people working in the shadows that we're not aware of that will probably come forward here soon, you know, there's great leadership at CAWG level with their association as well as the Wine Institute, they're working hard every single day to be lobbyists , for our industry and to be making sure that they're representing our issues and finding solutions, solutions. [00:35:40] You know, one of the big things that I've learned over the last couple of years, particularly this last year, is, is that we are all responsible for our future and making sure our future is compelling. And so we need to be supporting those associations and paying attention to the relevancy of the information that's out there. [00:35:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's excellent. This is a, again, kind of a, kind of a tangent and it may not lead anywhere, but I, I just had this thought. You were talking about sustainability certifications and how important they are for growers now. Do you think that communicating the sustainability story of wineries and probably done at an individual level and then spreading out from there do you think consumers would respond to that? [00:36:17] Eddie Urman: Yeah it's hard to say because marketing is not my forte, but I, it sure seems like with the trends as far as health conscious and all this, I think it would resonate with them. It really should. And it's something we should probably capitalize on more as an industry in general. Yeah. [00:36:33] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Well do you have, does anybody have like a final message or one thing you would tell growers on this topic? Audra, [00:36:40] Audra Cooper: Well, we covered a lot of topics today, and I think I'll leave everyone with the same thing I said earlier, Where focus goes, energy flows, and if we're focused on the negative, and we're focused on how tough the industry is right now, that's where we're going to be. If we're focused on solutions, we'll find one that works, and it's going to be different for everyone. [00:37:04] Everyone's solution may look a little bit different. This is both an individual and industry wide issue that we're facing currently. with the downturn in the industry and the extreme oversupply. But I have faith that the work that's already being done will pull us out of this. We just need to get innovative in how we market to new consumers. [00:37:26] Craig Macmillan: That's great. Where can people find out more about you folks? [00:37:29] Eddie Urman: on our website. , you can get our information on there and reach out and contact us. Anything else Audra. Right. [00:37:44] Audra Cooper: Year you can go to our social media Turrentine Brokerate or you can find me at GrapeBroker on Instagram. You can also call us or email us or text us if you'd like, or smoke signal us too, although please don't carry fires. [00:37:50] Craig Macmillan: Anyway, right. Well, thank you so much. I guess today we're Audrey Cooper she is a director of great brokerage at Turrentine. Brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is the central coast, great broker Turrentine. Thank you both for being here and having such an interesting conversation. It's an important topic with a lot of question marks, lots and lots of questions, but I think we had some good things come out of it and I really appreciate it. [00:38:11] Audra Cooper: All right. Thank you.  [00:38:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories. Operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling, custom panels, and special projects. Their customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed companies, backyard gardeners, researchers, and more. [00:38:45] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turntine brokerage. Their previous interview on the Sustainable Winegrowing podcast, that's number 259, wine Grape Market Trends for 2024, plus other sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, including 265. How to stand out on social media in 2025 and 268 how to tackle leadership transitions successfully.   [00:39:10] If you'd like this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. [00:39:16] You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org/podcast and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

April is National Poetry Month, and we invited Caleb Nichols, the Poet Laureate of San Luis Obispo County, to gather local poets from the region to do a poetry reading session at our studio. Caleb hosts the segment. Mira Honeycutt, host of Wine Country, speaks to winemakers Edgar Torres and Enrique Torres about their journey to making Spanish wines in Paso Robles. Then, the San Luis Obispo Film Festival starts April 24th and continues until April 29th, with encore screenings from May 1st to the 5th at the Palm Theater. Skye McLennan is the Executive Director of the festival and the SLO Film Center. She talks to me, Meher Ali, about what she's most excited about for this year's festival and why a theater is the best place to watch your favorite horror movies.

Helen Keplinger is one of the most sought-after winemakers in Napa Valley, but she's taking a break to take us on a California road trip with her Vermillion wine. Vermillion, sourced from the high-elevation Sierra Foothills to the sea-sprayed vineyards of Santa Barbara, captures the diverse terroirs that make this state so special, and we pop a bottle with Helen to identify how each component plays a unique role. She fills us in on why one of her secret, prized grape sources is like Wagyu beef and why Paso Robles might just be the most exciting region in wine. Plus, we reveal the one “can't miss” event in Napa Valley that Helen's been attending for over a decade—and how you can get in on the action as well! 

Paso Robles, Hands On, another dog friendly winery, anaesthesiologist and interview with Jordan Collins, winemaker, Lone Madrone Winery in Paso Robles. ON THE ROAD with mrCAwine is about California's cool, aspirational lifestyle and awesome wines hosted by Chuck Cramer, a California native, living in London and is the Director of European & Asian sales & marketing, Terlato Wines. This is a wine journey covering the hottest topics in the business of California wine, chatting along the way with the people who work in wine, and make it all happen. This week's episode includes an interview with Jordan Collins, winemaker at Lone Madrone Winery. 

The Pour with Adam Montiel is Recorded Live at The Timbre LoBroStudios, thanks to Timbre Winery.On this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, Adam sits down with Debby Baldwin Mann, a true pioneer of Paso Robles wine country. Debby co-founded Justin Winery as well as channeled her innovative spirit into creating two standout destinations: Paso Market Walk and Coast Village Walk in Montecito.Paso Market Walk is a vibrant gathering spot on Spring Street between 19th and 20th, showcasing the very best of local flavor and craftsmanship. The market offers a thoughtfully curated mix of artisanal food vendors, boutique shops, restaurants, and locally sourced goods, all housed within a beautifully designed space that embodies the charm and spirit of Paso Robles. Both locals and visitors, as well as those in the industry, can enjoy a unique experience here - from gourmet treats and handmade products to comfortable, high-end accommodations - while savoring the region's renowned hospitality and warm sense of community.In this candid conversation, Debby reflects on her experiences navigating the early days of Paso's wine scene, the monumental sale of Justin Winery, and the personal and professional transitions (and headlines) that followed. She also opens up about the lessons she's learned from her health challenges and how those experiences have reshaped her perspective on life, community, and success. Packed with insightful stories, humor, and heartfelt wisdom, this episode celebrates the life and legacy of a woman who has profoundly shaped her community, the industry, and those around her.Find Debby Baldwin Mann online:Website: pasomarketwalk.comInstagram: @pasomarketwalk*****Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Follow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

This week, we're on location at the 46th Annual Vancouver International Wine Festival at the Vancouver Convention Centre. We'll talk with many international wine personalities, including John Kane, Head of Winemaking at the hyper organic Bonterra Organic Estates. Then we head to the Naramata Bench to chat with winemaker Ross Baker for an update on the La Frenz Winery wines. Some 40 minutes north by car we stop in West Kelowna, to speak with Kailee Frasch, winemaker at Quails' Gate Winery and discuss her new lineup of Field and Flight wines bottled to fill the gap caused by recent shortages in the vineyard. Then it's off to California for a visit with Shaune Zeleny, VP, International Sales, J. Lohr Vineyards & Winery, and a Paso Robles wine country discussion. The wines we spoke to on the show this week from Bonterra Organic Estates and J. Lohr Vineyards are available at select Private Liquor stores across the Province including Everything Wine, Marquis Wine Cellars and Vessel Liquor in Victoria. The wines of Quails' Gate Winery are available at BC Liquor stores and other select retailers across BC. La Frenz wines are available at the winery and select wine stores across the Province, including Everything Wine and Marquis Wine Cellars in Vancouver.

Send us a textFinding exceptional wine values under $10 feels like discovering buried treasure, and the Lazy Bones Paso Robles Cabernet Franc 2023 is exactly that kind of remarkable find. Available exclusively at Trader Joe's for $7.99, this bottle consistently delivers quality that belies its modest price tag.What makes this wine special starts with its pedigree. Crafted by the Miller Wine family, who have been producing Trader Joe's exclusives for over 15 years, this Cabernet Franc benefits from serious winemaking expertise. The Miller family owns some of Central Coast's most prestigious vineyards, and while we can't confirm which specific vineyard sources were used, their experience and connections clearly translate to quality in the bottle.The wine itself showcases classic Cabernet Franc characteristics with a California twist. Dark fruit flavors of blackberry, plum, and blueberry mingle with hints of dried strawberry and oak spice. Most impressive is the tannin structure—present enough to provide authentic varietal character and food-pairing potential, yet remarkably smooth and sweet rather than harsh. This creates a versatile bottle that works beautifully for casual sipping or alongside burgers, tacos, and other outdoor dining favorites.Even the label stands out with its artistic flair reminiscent of 1890s France. Longtime fans might notice the evolution from previous vintages' black-and-white nude figure to this year's more modest, full-color rendition—a small change that doesn't diminish the bottle's eye-catching shelf appeal. As summer approaches and outdoor entertaining season begins, this Cabernet Franc deserves a spot in your regular rotation. Give it a try with your next casual meal and taste for yourself why we're so impressed by this overachieving budget wine.Check us out at www.cheapwinefinder.comor email us at podcast@cheapwinefinder.com

This is a way for our community to help finance Nature's Neighbor - Growing From Our Roots. This a video / Audio Podcast that Melanie created many years ago.  With the help of many community members it has blossomed into what it is today .  From 2007 -2009, Earth Talk Radio broadcasting our of KVEC in San Luis Obispo, California to 2009- 2021 the show named changed to Nature's Neighbor - Growing From Our Roots.  Broadcasting live from KPRL in Paso Robles, California.  2021 to present it has been a Podcast.  Now with the opportunity to make this a video / audio live show.  Where we as a community have  A show where we talk everything about Food, Farming, Family and Home. Home is always the Central Coast Of California. Always, using methods and practices to mimic nature as close as possible. Hoping to stimulate the conversation of how we eat our politics everyday. With the biggest political act we do everyday is what we put on our in our mouth.   To always remember, what we stand for is what we stand on. BUY, EAT, LIVE LOCAL. EVERYDAY. To have the conversation of health through food and environment.  To understand the feelings of seasons and understanding what weather really is.  It is not just a raining day, what does this really mea?  What moon phase are really in?  so many questions that we as a community will get to answering all these questions.Support our show.  The seed money planted here will help this program grow. Sponsorships are available - Call Melanie 805-712-3478Donations are appreciated  www.naturestouchnurseryandharvest.store 

A dog friendly winery, Paso Robles, Malbec and interview with Damian Grindley, Owner & Founding winemaker of Brecon Estate in Paso Robles. ON THE ROAD with mrCAwine is about California's cool, aspirational lifestyle and awesome wines hosted by Chuck Cramer, a California native, living in London and is the Director of European & Asia sales & marketing, Terlato Wines. This is a wine journey covering the hottest topics in the business of California wine, chatting along the way with the people who work in wine, and make it all happen. This week's episode includes an interview with Damian Grindley, Brecon Estate in Paso Robles. 

Paso Robles is celebrating Cab Franc with a special #CabFrancMasters event at Cass Winery, Sunday March 16th! This immersive event features global tastings, food pairings, and insightful discussions on Cabernet Franc's evolution and Paso's role in its future. Dive into this magical grape AND event with Neeta from LXV Wines and Bill from Mid-Point. Neeta calls it “rad dad” and while it might sound funny, it's pretty accurate. Learn why in this new Paso Wine Hour with Suzanne and two guests who bring lots of fun, knowledge and passion bug for Cab Franc to the studio! Follow @cabfrancmasters on Instagram and get tickets at cabfrancmasters.com! Check both of these amazing family owned and operated brands! * lxvwine.com * midpoint.wine Thanks to Krista at Paso Wine for connecting this great conversation. For more on the Paso Robles Wine Country Alliance membership and happenings go to pasowine.com.

We have a brand new segment here on Issues and Ideas! It's called Wine Country and it's hosted by wine journalist Mira Honeycutt. Mira is in conversation with Paso Vintners Gary Eberle, founder of Eberle Winery, and Jerry Lor, founder of J. Lor Vineyards and Wines, about Cabernet Sauvignon from Paso Robles. Sarah Mason, founder of the nonprofit Infinite Music, talks to KCBX Programming Intern Sam DJ about the long-term learning benefits of music education. Jim Dantona, host of Working Lunch, speaks with Sue Anderson, CEO of Dignity Health Central Coast Facilities about the specialized care they provide and the future of healthcare in the region.

Ancient Peaks Renegade Red Wine In this episode, Rob and Scott review a red blend from Ancient Peaks known as The Renegade.  So come join us, on The Wine Vault.

Paso Robles is set to shine a spotlight on one of the most fascinating and underappreciated varietals in the wine world—Cabernet Franc. Cab Franc Masters is a two-day event happening March 16-17, 2024, dedicated entirely to this complex and elegant grape.Joining Adam today are Neeta Mitral of LXV Wines and Damian Grimley of Brecon Estate. We talk about what makes Cab Franc special, why it's gaining momentum, and what guests can expect from this first-of-its-kind celebration.If you're a Cab Franc fan—or just looking to expand your palate—this is an episode (and event) you won't want to miss!Event Details: Cab Franc Masters 2025Dates: Sunday & Monday, March 16-17, 2025Location: Paso Robles, CATickets & Info: www.CabFrancMasters.comThis event is the first of its kind and a must-attend for wine lovers looking to experience the depth and beauty of Cabernet Franc in all its forms.Featured GuestsNeeta Mitral – LXV Wines (Website)Damian Grindley – Brecon Estate (Website)Social Media Links:Cab Franc Masters – InstagramFollow LXV Wines – InstagramFollow Brecon Estate – InstagramFollow The Pour with Adam Montiel – InstagramSponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Links & Shoutouts:Presqu'ile Winery: presquilewine.comCenter of Effort: centerofeffortwine.comSolterra Strategies: solterrastrategies.comTin City Distillery Private Barrel Club: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-clubWorld of Pinot Noir: worldofpinotnoir.comFollow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

Chris Terrano stops by to talk to Andy Morris about some upcoming events with Paso Robles Wine.

Zinfandel has been in America since the early to mid 1800s and was once the most popular wine grape in California. It is known for its old vine wines.In fact, in the past it was a victim of its own popularity, and became known as a common cheaper wine. A lot of Zinfandel juice kits were sold during prohibition which also hurt its reputation.However, in the 1980s and 1990s it gained in sales and acreage because of the popularity of White Zinfandel. Currently Zinfandel is the third most planted wine grape in California behind Cabernet Sauvignon and Pinot Noir and just ahead of the fourth most planted wine grape Merlot. California is the world leader in Zinfandel. Most popular regions in California are Sonoma, Napa, Paso Robles, and the Sierra Foothills. Many old vine Zinfandels are also found in Lodi. Other regions includes the Languedoc, South Africa, and Australia. Additionally, Puglia, Italy, grows the same grape, where it is called Primitivo., and in Croatia it is called Tribidrag.Zinfandel is known as a medium-body, higher-alcohol wine. According to “Wine Folly,” it is commonly produced into two types of red wine: a lighter style with lower alcohol and flavors of raspberry, rose petal, spice cake, sage, and black pepper, and a richer style with higher alcohol and flavors of blackberry, cinnamon, caramel, jam, chocolate, and smoky tobacco. Tonight, we are enjoying two California Zinfandels including: 2019 Kirkland Signature Old Vine Zinfandel. Purchased at Costco for $9.99. This wine comes from Sonoma, CA. 2019 Seghesio Family Vineyards Zinfandel. This wine was purchased at Costco for $16.99. The wine comes from Sonoma County, CA. Next week we will learn about Fume Blanc.2023 Ferrari-Carano Fume Blanc. This wine was purchase from Costco for $10.99.

It's Monday, Let's raise a glass to the beginning of another week. It's time to unscrew, uncork or saber a bottle and let's begin Exploring the Wine Glass!  Today, we're diving deep into the world of Cabernet Franc. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Neeta Mittal, the powerhouse behind the Cab Franc Masters in Paso Robles. If you're a fellow Francophile, this is an episode you won't want to miss! We talk about our shared love for this incredible grape, how it thrives in Paso's diverse terroir, and the upcoming two-day event in March that's an absolute dream for any Cab Franc lover. So, grab a glass of your favorite Cab Franc, get comfy, and let's talk about why this variety deserves a spotlight of its own! While you are listening, it would be greatly appreciated if you could take one minute to subscribe, rate and review. It takes only a few seconds of your time but means so much to the show.  Also, please be sure to check the box for automatic downloads so that new episodes of Exploring the Wine Glass show up in your “next up feed.” The next best way to support Exploring the Wine Glass is to tell your friends. If you enjoy the podcast, your wine loving friends will too. Follow me on all the socials and finally, don't forget to head to the website, Exploring the Wine Glass.com to read the blog, and sign up for the newsletter to keep up with all the happenings.  Slainte!    Find out more about Cab Franc Masters here  Music: WINE by Kēvens Official Video Follow me on Instagram!   Follow me on Twitter! Subscribe to my YouTube channel SIGN UP FOR EXPLORING THE WINE GLASS NEWSLETTER SUBSCRIBE ON iTUNES STITCHER | iTUNES | YOUTUBE | SPOTIFY | PODBEAN | AUDIBLE | BOOMPLAY Even ask your smart speaker to play Exploring the Wine Glass GIVE US A RATING AND REVIEW Thoughts or comments? Contact Lori at exploringthewineglass@gmail.com. Please support our sponsors Dracaena Wines - Our Wines + Your Moments + Great Memories Use code 'Explore' at checkout to receive 10% off your first order GET SPECIAL OFFERS FOR DRACAENA WINES

Winegrowing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils, to low organic matter, to nematodes. Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA-ARS and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. They are testing a variety of management strategies including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt build-up, mowing for weed management, compost applications and synthetic fertilizers, and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling, Devin explains X-ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure and organic matter from soil columns and aggregates. X-ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. Resources:         80: (Rebroadcast) The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management 90: Nematode Management for Washington Grapes A workflow for segmenting soil and plant X-ray CT images with deep learning in Google's Colaboratory Devin Rippner, USDA ARS Functional Soil Health Healthy Soils Playlist Red Wine Fermentation Alters Grape Seed Morphology and Internal Porosity Soil Health in Washington Vineyards Vineyard soil texture and pH effects on Meloidogyne hapla and Mesocriconema xenoplax Washington Soil Health Initiative Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Wine growing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils to low organic matter to nematodes. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA ARS. [00:00:41] Devin and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. [00:00:49] They are testing a variety of management strategies, including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt buildup, mowing for weed management, Compost applications and synthetic fertilizers and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. [00:01:08] Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling. Devin explains X ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure in organic matter from soil columns and soil aggregates. X ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact that grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. [00:01:28] Now let's listen in. [00:01:29] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with the USDA agricultural research service. He's based out of Prosser, Washington, and he's also an adjunct in the department of crop and soil sciences with Washington state university. [00:01:46] Devin, thanks for being here. [00:01:48] Devin Rippner: Absolutely. Pleasure to be here, Craig. [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: You are on the leadership team of the Washington State Soil Health Initiative. I think it's a pretty cool little program. Tell us what it is and what it's all about. [00:01:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So the Washington State Legislature allocated funding to study soil health and soil health building practices in a variety of agricultural systems and so to access that money a number of groups put in competitive proposals at the Prosser Irrigated Agriculture Research and Extension Center, we put in a proposal to study soil health in wine grape systems. [00:02:24] Originally, we actually had it in juice grapes as well, but we were not able to get enough funding for both. Juice grapes are actually a big product out of Washington. [00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: I did not know that. That's interesting. What varieties? [00:02:34] Devin Rippner: Mostly Concord? [00:02:36] I'm less familiar with it. It's something I would, I would like to work in cause they have different constraints than wine grapes. [00:02:41] Ours is focused on wine grapes, but there are systems looking at tree fruit, at potatoes, at small crane cropping systems. There are a variety of systems that are being evaluated. [00:02:54] Craig Macmillan: I looked at a flyer that kind of outlined some of the ideas and issues around , the Wine Grape part. Can you tell us a little bit about that? [00:03:01] Devin Rippner: we have fairly unique soils. We have pretty alkaline soils here in Washington. We're on the arid side of the Cascades. So think Reno rather than like Seattle. we tend to accumulate salts. We also have very coarse textured soils. So a lot of sands to sandy loams or loamy sands. Very little clay. [00:03:23] We have typically under 10 percent clay in a lot of the grape growing regions of washington. we also have low organic matter, because it doesn't rain much here. There has never been a chance for a lot of plants to grow. And so we just have never really built up organic matter. So we typically have about, let's say, maybe 1 percent to 2 percent organic matter in our soils. [00:03:44] That's about half a percent carbon to 1 percent carbon, which is typically it's pretty low for a lot of soils. [00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: It is. [00:03:51] Devin Rippner: those are some of, some of the like unique challenges around soil health. There's also problems with pests. Haven't had too much of an issue with Phylloxera. That's changing. [00:04:01] There are a variety of nematode pests that cause problems in grapes here. When you plant a vineyard into an old vineyard, you're basically putting baby vines into a place that might have a bunch of pests that aren't a big deal for really mature vines. [00:04:14] But as soon as you put a baby in that environment, it does not thrive. [00:04:18] Finding ways to deal with nematode pests, things like that over time , is really important. So those are kind of the things that we are, we are looking at, at our site. [00:04:27] Craig Macmillan: What kind of practices are you investigating to address these things? I hadn't really thought of that about it till now, but nematode is a good one. that's a tough pest. [00:04:37] Devin Rippner: funny thing is this is a long term site, right? So, so our practices for those will really come later. I had a nematologist that worked for me. And she evaluated our soils for for the pathogenic nematodes for wine grapes, and we don't really have them but the thing is they build over time, right? [00:04:52] Just because there might be a few in that soil But when they start colonizing the grape roots over time, they can become problematic We functionally have a rootstock trial at the end of all of our experimental rows and, and rootstocks have been found to be very effective at preventing nematode problems or decreasing the severity of nematode problems. [00:05:13] We will be able to kind of look at that with our rootstock trial. [00:05:17] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any of the GRN stocks in that? [00:05:19] Devin Rippner: We don't, so we have own rooted vines and then we have Telekey 5c 1103p 110r. Let's see then I think St. George [00:05:30] I'm trying to remember what, what the last one is. It's escaping me right now. I apologize. [00:05:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, it's all right. Some of the more common root stocks, basically the ones that are very popular. [00:05:39] Devin Rippner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:41] The reality is that a lot of the like vitis rupestris, vitis riparia, , they are less prone to nematode parasitism. Than Vinifera. , that's the reality of it. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Less susceptible. I think it's probably the best way to put it. Nothing's bulletproof when it comes to this, this problem. [00:05:57] Devin Rippner: And Michelle Moyer in Washington has been doing a lot of work with this, with Inga Zasada, who's a USDA scientist. And their, their results are really cool. They're finding that when you try to fumigate, it helps for a little while, but the rebound is bad, and it's just easier to just use rootstocks. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about, you said salinity can be an issue [00:06:19] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: So here's the, the back and forth on that. You would think that a, a coser, your textured soil salinity would be less of an issue, but you don't get the rain to take advantage of that. Is that , the issue here? [00:06:30] Devin Rippner: 100%. That's exactly it. We build up layers called caliche layers, which are evidence of a lack of water moving downward. [00:06:38] So it's, it's really evidence of water moving down and then back up due to evaporation. We get big buildups of carbonates in our soils and carbonates are a type of salt. [00:06:48] So as you apply other chemicals, Salts, a salty irrigation water , we tend to build up salts in our soils. A lot of our irrigation water comes from the Yakima River or other rivers in the area, columbia River. But there are places where people are on deeper wells and they are seeing salt accumulation in their vineyards. [00:07:06] And it's, it's really challenging to deal with. [00:07:09] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any strategies that you're looking at? Anything you're trying out? [00:07:13] Devin Rippner: at our site over time, we're going to look at higher irrigation volumes versus lower irrigation volumes and seeing if that will change the accumulation of salt at our site. , that's kind of the main experiment around that with our soil health vineyard. [00:07:27] Craig Macmillan: Obviously you're doing this with some pretty salty irrigation water and you're comparing that to less salty water. At one site, you're only gonna have one type of water, right? [00:07:36] Devin Rippner: Right. That's not something that we'll be able to do, but one of the interesting things is we are applying compost and. Our compost can be pretty salty. [00:07:45] So we'll, we'll be getting compost. That'll be kind of four decisiemen per meter. I I'm sorry to use those units and so that, so that is salty. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's salty. [00:07:55] Devin Rippner: Young grapevines, if they grew only in that, they would really struggle. It's over the, the two deciSiemen per meter kind of threshold for grapevines. That's something where we're, you know, we are using clean irrigation water, but some of our amendments coming in can be saltier. [00:08:10] When we have kind of a, a low and high irrigation treatment, we can evaluate the salt accumulation in the root zone. From that particular amendment, right? [00:08:19] Craig Macmillan: What about other types of fertilizer? Are there organic fertilizers or something like that that might be less of a salt contributor than let's say a traditional nitrate based fertilizer? [00:08:28] Devin Rippner: As it turns out, at least for us, we don't apply. a massive amount of nitrogen to our grapevines, so we're often applying between 20 and say 60 pounds of N per year which is not a lot compared to say corn or, tree fruit or, or hops or things like that. [00:08:45] And so we, we don't, Exactly. Expect to see a buildup of, of those salts over time. Honestly, some of the organic amendments end up being saltier than our fertilizer. [00:08:55] That's something when we do a high and low for irrigation, we will be able to look at the accumulation of, of nitrates and things like that. [00:09:02] Cause in our arid environment, you do get accumulations of nitrate, which is kind of funny. [00:09:06] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's interesting. You also mentioned the soil pH, alkalinity. What, what's going on there? How bad is it in different spots? What can you do about it? I, I'm fascinated by this because like when you look at viticulture, you have like a lot of knobs on the mixing board, right? You got a lot of sliders and, Soil , you can't slide it very well. It's like very hard to make changes to soil over time. [00:09:33] Devin Rippner: it is. [00:09:33] Craig Macmillan: very slow and very difficult. So I'm very interested in , this issue here. [00:09:39] Devin Rippner: It's funny at our site, the soil pH isn't too bad. It's about 8. Across the board, from the, from the top that so, so we've been measuring from the top of the soil down to about 90 centimeters. About three feet. We do see a pH tick up in our sub soil, but still it's, it's around the eights. [00:09:56] We actually have a lot of carbonates in our soil. There's only more organic carbon in the top six inches of our soil. And from that point on, most of our carbon is in the form of carbonates. [00:10:06] Which is kind of unique. And so once you get down to like 60 to 90 centimeters, so two to three feet in the soil, functionally, 90 percent of the soil carbon is carbon from carbonate. [00:10:16] So dealing with that in the region there's wide variation, so people that are planting into old wheat ground where they've used a lot of ammonium based fertilizers or urea, the pH can be in the fives. And then I, I mean, I've measured soil pH is up to about 9. 8 around here. So, so quite high. [00:10:35] Those soils are hard to deal with. So these are carbonate buffered systems. So to try to lower the pH, you basically have to get rid of all the carbonates. And that is not really feasible. We do see in some of the vineyards that we work in. And again, a lot of this data is preliminary. [00:10:51] I'm trying to get stuff out right now. Getting the vineyard set up has been a massive undertaking. And I've been lucky to work with a great team to, to get it done, but it has taken a lot of my time. [00:11:01] Um, but we, we do see seasonal fluctuations with irrigation. So soils might start off with a pH around eight drop over the course of the growing season into the sixes and then as they dry down for winter time. So we cut irrigation. The pH will start to rise back up as the carbonates move from the subsoil to the surface. [00:11:21] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. Interesting. Let's talk about your vineyard. If I understand correctly, you have a research vineyard there in Prosser that you are building from scratch or have built from scratch. Is that true? [00:11:30] Devin Rippner: Yes. . It is a new vineyard to study soil health building practices. We just finished our second season. And we were very lucky. Vina Matos which is a company out of Portugal. They mechanically planted it for us. [00:11:45] Scientist, so it's, it was, yeah, it was a bit of an undertaking. Even now I've gotten a lot better on a tractor than I was. And, you know, I like to run, like, I'd like to do x ray stuff. And then I'm out there on a tractor, like, yeah, doing stuff. It's a unique challenge. [00:11:59] So we do have a vineyard manager Dr. Liz Gillespie is the vineyard manager. , she honestly does most of the tracker work. I only sub in when she's down with an illness or something like that. [00:12:09] It's been a team effort for the last couple of years. [00:12:12] Craig Macmillan: What are you doing in there? You've talked about a couple of topics, but, and how big is this, this vineyard? [00:12:17] Devin Rippner: It's not that big. It's about 4. 1 acres. , [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: that's, you know, for research, that's good. [00:12:22] Devin Rippner: yeah, yeah, it is good. We functionally have a business as usual. So we call it our Washington 2021 standard. So it's kind of what growers just do. So that's spraying undervined for weed control and then just let resident vegetation pop up where it may and mow it down. [00:12:39] Most people don't spray or till , their tractor rows. They just. Kind of let it go. We don't get that much rain. You end up selecting for annual grasses it's actually a pretty good weed composition for a tractor row. So then we start building from there. [00:12:52] One of our treatments is what if you just mowed everywhere, right? The goal is to select for annual grasses everywhere over time. [00:12:59] And then we have another treatment where we're mowing everywhere. But we're applying compost for fertilization. Our other treatments get synthetic fertilizers for fertilization, and then we have our compost treatment where we're mowing. [00:13:12] Then we have an undervined cover crop, so that's like our cover crop treatment. [00:13:16] We're curious about undervine legume cover crops. So we have a short subterranean clover that , we've seated in to hopefully eventually start adding nitrogen to the system and, and hopefully we'll be able to back off on more of the synthetic fertilizers over time in that system, but we'll let the vines guide us, right? [00:13:35] Craig Macmillan: What species of clover is that? [00:13:37] Devin Rippner: I'm not sure the exact, so it would be like Dalkey. [00:13:39] it's a clover that basically has low flowers and shoots seed downward. And so , that allows it to replant itself really effectively. [00:13:47] The flowers tend to be below the foliage. So we won't have to worry about mowing them down too badly. , they stay low. And so that's why we selected that. just to try to keep the flowers low and keep foliage away from our vines. [00:14:01] Craig Macmillan: Anything else? [00:14:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, so then we have our aspirational treatment, which is kind of a mix of the subterranean clover cover crop. And then we have compost fertilization and then kind of breaking the full factorial. We're actually changing what's in , , the tractor row. We're planting an intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:20] We started with crusted wheatgrass. It's so funny with these experiments. , we seeded in crusted wheatgrass a couple of times and just did not take it's not very effective for competing against other weeds, and it's not very good with traffic. And so now , we're seeding in intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:35] , it is more traffic tolerant and is more weed tolerant. So we're hoping that we'll be able to outcompete all the other annual grasses and just have kind of a perennial grass cover crop. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: Is it on these courses? So is this camp is compaction less of a problem? I would think. [00:14:53] Devin Rippner: We do have some compaction. That we've seen out there. Certainly mechanical planting can cause some extra compaction. It, it takes a lot of force to, you know, rip a giant hole in the ground to drop the vines into. And so we do see some compaction from that. [00:15:06] We have taken bulk density cores from all over the vineyard. And we're hoping to see changes over time in that compaction. So we've done bulk density course from under vine and then in the tractor row. And so we're hoping that over time, these various practices will alter the bulk density, hopefully lower the bulk density in the tractor row. [00:15:27] Craig Macmillan: And then I'm assuming that you're also keeping track of costs for these things. [00:15:32] Devin Rippner: yes, we have been keeping track of costs. We are keeping track of the hourly labor , for mowing. Honestly, we've, we've purchased some undervine mowers and , we have really struggled to find a good solution for our young vines. [00:15:45] We're going to, Purchase another one soon. The biggest thing is that if you have a swing arm on it, it's got to be gentle enough that it, it'll push out of the way , with a bamboo stake in the ground. [00:15:55] And a lot of the existing swing arm mowers for orchards and vineyards it takes a lot of force to move that swing arm. [00:16:03] It's been a real challenge for us. So, so we ended up having people go out with weed eaters, which is super expensive and is actually something that some vineyards do either biodynamic vineyards in the area that they'll send people out with weed eaters to go control the weeds under vine. [00:16:17] I don't want this to be just like a hyper specialized science experiment. If we're sending people out with weed eaters, it sounds a little bit ridiculous, but there are folks in the industry that do it. So it's not. It's not that ridiculous. [00:16:28] Craig Macmillan: It's not that ridiculous. It's legitimate. [00:16:31] Whatever tool that you can make work, depending on the size of your vineyard and depending on what your conditions are. But yeah, you're in row mode. That's going to be an issue until these vines are mature to no doubt about that. I hope you still have a vineyard after knocking down these bamboo stakes. [00:16:44] You don't have like real results yet. You've only just gotten started. [00:16:47] Devin Rippner: We've only just gotten started you know, some of the results that we got were prior to our planting, there were no differences among our treatment blocks for our treatments across the site. So that's nice kind of starting at a, a pretty even baseline. [00:17:03] We're going to track the changes over time. Honestly. I hate to speculate, we don't have the data for it yet, but we've been applying, our synthetic fertilizers based on our like compost mineralization rate. And one of the things that's pretty obvious when you walk out there is that weed competition is brutal for young vines. [00:17:23] So where we're spraying with herbicide under the vines, there's less weed competition. Those vines are just bigger., [00:17:28] we're going to up the amount of fertilizer that we apply next year to try to, like, get around that. And it's one of the challenges at our site is that for long term research, we have to manage our vineyard in a way that kind of limits how many comparisons that we can make. Functionally, two out of our three rows are buffers. It just eats up an enormous amount of space and I'm, I'm hesitant to start putting other treatments into those areas. Like, oh, what if we vary the fertilizer rate to see what the effect is with relation to mowing, right? [00:18:01] So can we get over the weed pressure by, Applying more fertilizer. One of my main takeaways is that a lot of the recommendations that you might get for like, for conventional management won't necessarily work if you're trying to change your system [00:18:16] That's where, you know, growers are going to have to play around and understand that if they're mowing under vine, there is going to be more weed pressure and those weeds take up nitrogen. [00:18:27] You may have to fertilize more. I mean, that, that's just a consequence of, of weed competition. [00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. And in irrigation water too, [00:18:37] Devin Rippner: Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. They use a lot of water. There's no doubt about it. [00:18:42] Craig Macmillan: Which actually brings me back to the clover. I planted crimson clover in my yard once and I irrigated it and it was really pretty and I actually put two and a half foot, three foot high risers off of my lawn sprinklers to get a sprinkler high enough that I could keep growing it. And I was able to grow it up to about three feet tall and it was gorgeous. It was absolutely amazing. But it does make me wonder if, what's a subterranean clover? It's a low growing clover, but how much effect does irrigation have on it in terms of making it taller or taller? [00:19:13] Devin Rippner: That's a good question. I haven't looked into it that much. I consulted with some colleagues here. Who've done work with a variety of cover crops, and they were the ones that recommended the subterranean clover. It has a short stature and part of it is because of how it flowers and seeds, it can't get that tall because it's, it pushes its seeds into the ground. [00:19:32] And so there's no real benefit for it getting taller because then it will be farther away from where it needs to put its seeds. [00:19:39] That's a real concern. I mean, I've learned so much by , having a vineyard gophers, voles, rats, mice, they can be problematic. Right. And if you have a tall cover crop, that's getting into your vines, like that's an easy pathway up. [00:19:52] Keeping the, those undervine weeds and cover crops short is really important. [00:19:58] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. It's also really important for the success of your predators. [00:20:01] Your barn nows and whatnot. They can't really do much when things are tall. So keep going, keep good luck. You're in it. You're in it now, Devon, [00:20:09] Devin Rippner: Oh, yeah. No, that's what it feels like. I feel like I jumped into the deep end of a pool, but didn't realize it was so deep. And so, yeah, I'm learning. [00:20:17] Craig Macmillan: Because prior to a few years back, cause you were, you were at Davis and you were at the Oakville station. Is that right? For a little while. [00:20:24] Devin Rippner: I pulled some samples from Oakville, but no, I was mostly on main campus. I'm a soil chemist by training. Grapevines are relatively new for me. I worked for Andrew McElrone, who , does some great work a lot of my previous work did not involve grapes, and it was mainly, like, tomatoes or other annual crops, and often, like, pretty lab based stuff. [00:20:47] And so this has been a real deep dive for me to do something different. [00:20:53] Craig Macmillan: which is an excellent transition to some of your work which you did at other crops, but you also did some other interesting things related to vines and to soil. And that is x ray CT imagery. You were the first person to introduce me to this concept. I I had no idea I guess I should say X ray micro CT imagery. What, what are the exact terminology? What is it? What can it do? What can we learn? [00:21:20] Devin Rippner: Thanks for bringing this up. Let me just try to keep it simple and I'll build out from there. Just like a doctor's office where you can get an X ray you can actually X ray soils. And plants and look inside of them. X ray computed tomography is where instead of just taking one x ray, maybe you take 1000 x rays as the sample is slowly moving. And what you end up with is the ability to make a three D reconstruction of that sample. Where you're able to look inside of it. [00:21:50] Materials that absorb x rays look different than materials that don't absorb x rays. And so you're able to start Teasing apart structures that are inside of plants and soils [00:22:01] There's different levels to that. Humans have X ray computed tomography done on them, right? You can go in and have that procedure done to look inside of you. It's very much like an MRI there are some tools that it. look at very big volumes. And then there are some tools that look at very small volumes. [00:22:19] That's where there's the x ray microcomputed tomography is looking at very small volumes. And a lot of times those instruments they're low often located. With synchrotrons. So a synchrotron is a particle accelerator that moves electrons at about the speed of light. And then as they're going at the speed of light, , it bends them, it shifts the path of the electrons. [00:22:43] And in doing so , Theory of relativity says that when you have a big shift , in the direction of these electrons they must lose energy. And so they lose energy as the brightest light that we know of in the known universe. And so some of that light are x rays and those x rays are very tunable, and there's a lot of them. [00:23:03] And so we can basically focus on a really tiny area. And still have a lot of x rays. That lets us look at really small things and still have like good contrast and be able to image them relatively quickly. This field is advancing quickly. I know it sounds pretty crazy to talk about x raying soils and plants and things like that. [00:23:23] But the reality is these x rays can also be used to identify elements. And so you can do elemental speciation. So you can be like, Oh, all of the phosphorus there is as phosphate rather than some other form or it's calcium phosphate, not magnesium phosphate. That's called x ray adsorption, near edge structures. [00:23:42] That's how people do that. A long time ago, these instruments used to be unique. You do like a tomography and then you do like these Zains do elemental information, but those things are converging. Now it's possible to do like x ray CT and also do elemental analysis and speciation on the same sample. [00:24:01] in 100 years, that may be how we do our soil testing is you literally have one of these instruments on the back of a tractor. You pull a soil core. You do a quick scan and you say, here's our structure. We can also see the organic matter inside of the soil column. And then by inference from the outer edge of the soil column, we can get What elements are there and what form they're in and then make predictions on their availability. [00:24:27] Were very far from that, but that's like the vision that I have in my head is that at some point, , these will be sensors that people can just use in the field. Will they use an enormous amount of energy? Absolutely. Technology has, shifted in my lifetime and a lot of things that have seemed absurd in the past are now commonplace. [00:24:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things, and it can be other crops as well, but in particular, there was one you did with, I think, grape seeds. Those are the things that can do what, what have you actually. Zapped [00:24:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah. [00:24:59] Craig Macmillan: a better word. [00:25:01] Devin Rippner: You know. [00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: mind here. Okay. So [00:25:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah. So I work with a lot of folks at different national labs. So the Pacific Northwest National Lab is a lab I work at a lot. And we've done a lot of imaging of soil cores and they're big soil cores. So three inches by 12 inch soil cores and to look at soil structure and we're working on segmenting out organic matter from them. [00:25:22] That's something that was not previously possible, but with modern neural networks and deep learning, we can actually train. Neural networks to identify specific compounds in the soil and identify them. We've done it with soil columns. I've done some work with soil aggregates. [00:25:38] So we can look at very small things as well. I've looked at grape seeds, so we had a little study where working with some folks at Davis they pulled out grape seeds, before, during and after fermentation, functionally, and we looked at how the structures of the seeds were changing. [00:25:58] The idea here is that grapeseeds provide a lot of tannins and they're not necessarily like the best tannins for wine, but they do provide a lot of tannins. [00:26:07] People have always wondered like, why do grapeseeds kind of supply a constant amount of tannins during the fermentation process? And as it turns out, it's because the structure of the seeds is changing during fermentation, [00:26:18] They start cracking. And so the internal structures become more accessible during fermentation. [00:26:23] And so that's what we were seeing using x ray tomography is these internal changes that were happening inside of the grape seeds that could potentially promote tannin extraction. [00:26:32] Craig Macmillan: That is fascinating. That explains a lot. I'm just thinking through, Tannin management. The date currently is in the beginning of November 2024. So we're just wrapping up a harvest here in the Paso Robles, central coast area. And so I've been thinking a lot about tannin management last couple of months on behalf of my friends who make wine, not myself. That's not entirely true. Is there a practical application to that in terms of like timing or conditions or things that would contribute to the, the cracking breakdown of these seeds that you identified? [00:27:05] Devin Rippner: We weren't able to go like that in depth and it's some, it's an area that I would like to build on. But the idea is that. The fermentation is a pretty harsh environment. You have a massive change in pH. Microbes are working hard. You have the production of ethanol, which allows the extraction of different compounds. [00:27:24] The seeds are seemingly being modified during fermentation. There needs to be more work done in this area in terms of seed tanning management. We now have kind of a, the more physical. Explanation for why those cannons are coming out of the seeds. [00:27:39] If you are able to pull your seeds earlier from fermentation, I mean, that's like a ridiculous thing to say, but you know, [00:27:45] Craig Macmillan: no, I mean, winemakers are very clever there's a lot of techniques that have become more prominent, I think, in the last 10, 15 years in terms of things like pressing off early, so getting your extraction fast and then finishing out the fermentation off of skins, off of seeds, you know, that's one way that you can do it really using seed maturity as a major variable in your pick decision is another one that I've seen people really draw to. [00:28:09] I remember people crunching on seeds and going, yeah, that's mature. Now I'm seeing people reject a pick date based on that. [00:28:17] Like we were going to wait for these seeds to mature fully before we pull because of, because of these issues with a seed tannin. So just knowing that I think is fascinating. [00:28:28] And if we can put some time and pH things on that, that would be really cool. Are you going to be using this technology with the with the research plot for anything? [00:28:36] Devin Rippner: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we [00:28:39] already have started that. We've already started down that route. Shortly after planting we collected soil cores from, , the vine row. And then from where the, the planter tires were functionally running just to look at changes in bulk density. So like kind of how compressed the soil is and then trying to get at changes in porosity. [00:28:58] We looked at these cores relative to , a field next door. That has had very relatively little disturbance in the past, like 4 to 10 years. It's kind of variable but has had less disturbance than say, like, right after planting a vineyard mechanically. Some of the things we see are you know, when you mechanically plant a vineyard, the bulk density , in the vine row is much lower than where the tractor tires are running that intrinsically makes sense. [00:29:26] And they're kind of both different than a place that's been no till or low disturbance for four to 10 years. Some of the things that are most interesting, and, and again, this is preliminary, it's got to go through peer review. . But when we look at the CT scans, you can actually see where worms have been moving, [00:29:45] In these, like, low till and no till plots or this field that has just not really been disturbed. [00:29:51] , so worms are actually making sizable holes in the ground, and those holes contribute to the porosity in these, like, low disturbance soils compared to these very disturbed soils. And that was a really interesting thing to visually see. You can see the worm castings in the scan. [00:30:10] I don't know if you've ever seen worm castings before, but they kind of, they're these little, like, kind of football shaped Things that are all clumped together our soils don't really aggregate. [00:30:20] We don't have enough organic matter and we don't have enough clay. And so that's like driving force behind aggregation in our soil seemingly is worm castings. For me, that was just mind blowing. [00:30:31] I was not expecting to see that. I think I was expecting to see a lot of roots or like root channels and they're there, but the worms are like following these roots and root channels around. [00:30:41] I'm a very visual person. And so when I do CT stuff, it's like, Oh, wow. Like I can see it with my eyes. If I can't see it with my eyes, it's hard for me to believe. But when I see it with my eyes, , it's believable. [00:30:52] Craig Macmillan: We've done a number of interviews recently around so the microbiome and just soil biology kind of in general, , is that gonna be part of your analysis as some of these projects go forward? [00:31:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So we've done something called phospholipid fatty acid analysis. [00:31:09] So that gives us an idea of kind of, The microbial consortium that's there right when we sample phospholipids don't really stick around in soils. They're quickly degraded. We would like to do some sequencing challenges. We don't have a microbiologist on the team. And, and so we would, we would have to pay for the sequencing. [00:31:28] And even then sequencing is really interesting because, you could be like, oh, we did say 16 S-R-R-N-A sequencing. And that's like, that's a particular like region or a particular type of sequencing that is, that only picks up on say bacteria. [00:31:47] Whereas if you want to see fungi, maybe you need to do something called ITS sequencing. And so unless you do like all of the sequencing, you can get an idea of what's happening to the bacterial communities or the fungal communities. But unless you do all of them, it's really hard to get a more holistic picture. [00:32:05] And then, a lot of the sequencing that we do or is done we're missing things. If the regions analyzed aren't big enough, like we can be blind to specific things that we know are there. And so things like my understanding is that fungal mycorrhizae can actually be hard to detect by sequencing. [00:32:21] And so even if you visually see them in the roots by staining, you may not pick them up by sequencing. It is a challenge. Now, I, you know, I think that certainly studying the microbiome and understanding its relationship , with vine performance and soil health is, is crucial and is really, you know, one of the things that it's kind of the Holy grail [00:32:41] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. [00:32:43] Devin Rippner: We're trying to get there. [00:32:44] Craig Macmillan: We're trying to get there. That is definitely the message, but it also, there's definitely the potential. I think that there's a lot of people working on this. I think we're going to get there. It's, genomics is so big. I've talked to people that are like, at some point we, we, we will probably be able to get down to species, so we will know the bad actors from the good actors, we'll get a sense of what the real ecology is. [00:33:05] That's a decade plus away still, but we're going there. Right? We're we're gonna figure it out. We're gonna figure it out at some point. We're gonna get there. [00:33:14] Devin Rippner: Yeah, I agree. And there's, there are some techniques. There's some really cool techniques. So Jennifer Petridge at Lawrence Livermore lab does a lot Carbon 13 labeling of root exudates. So she basically gives plants, she treats them with carbon 13, enriched CO2. And then she looks at how much of the carbon 13 is then incorporated into the DNA of microbes to try to get at how well associated they are with plants. [00:33:41] I think that work is just incredible. And there's some folks at Davis that are, are working that in that area as well. That's kind of the stuff that gets me really excited to seeing when people are trying to really tie it into what's feeding on root carbon, , who's getting these exudates, things like that. [00:33:59] , that to me is one of the, One of the ways that we'll be able to, like, get at these questions is to, to start differentiating, the bulk soil microbiome from like the, the real rhizosphere associated microbiome. [00:34:11] Craig Macmillan: so you got a lot going on. You got , you got a bunch of different things happening. What's the path ahead look like for you? [00:34:17] Devin Rippner: Sure. So, and with with the soil health vineyard. I mean, I'm very excited to keep that going. We'll do another large sampling event in 2027 or 2028. We'll start making wine from our grapes. Not next year, but the year after that. So we'll be excited to see how our different management strategies influence our wine. [00:34:40] The wines that come out of the vineyard, or the wines made, made from the grapes that come out of the vineyard. So those are some of the things , I'm most excited about with regard to the vineyard. [00:34:50] Otherwise, I have a lot of data that I need to process and get out. That's something that's next. [00:34:56] I, I'm collaborating with some folks from the University of Illinois in Berkeley lab to look at changes to the Moro plots in Illinois over time. So that's the oldest agricultural experiment in the United States. The plots there have been in experimental treatments for 149 years. [00:35:15] And the reason I'm involved is because vineyards can be very long lived things, right? I mean, there are vines in California 100 years old. [00:35:23] This is one of the few experiments to me that's like comparable to what we see in vineyards. And so I'm really curious about, you know, how do, how do management practices influence soil structure, microbiome, the metagenome, the metabolome, things like that, on these century long timelines. [00:35:43] That to me is like some of the really interesting questions. If you have a vineyard for, for a century, or if you want a vineyard for a century, what do you need to do? How do you make that work? Knowing that it's going to take 20 years to have your vineyard be profitable. [00:35:57] I mean, you're already on a different timescale than annual crops, right? yeah. And so it's just like, how, how do we make our, our vineyards as sustainable and long lived as possible? Because , that, that initial investment is huge. It is so much money. [00:36:13] Craig Macmillan: I think that's really great. I think coming up with findings on other crops, but with practices that could be transferable is really great. You know, we don't need to be in our little grape silo. All the time. And in fact some of the soil microbiome stuff have been with interviews with people that had no connection to vineyards whatsoever. And it was great. The things that they were learning, they were absolutely transferable to this crop as well. That hasn't gotten that kind of attention. Grapevines are tough little suckers, really from an evolutionary standpoint, they're pretty rugged and so we can kind of get away with a lot just because of that. [00:36:48] And now I think the margin for error is less and less, especially when we get into tougher and tougher sites like you're talking about and different conditions, especially if you've farmed it for a while and things have changed. Being able to look at other, other systems and see what's there. [00:37:03] What is one thing that you would tell growers around this topic of research? [00:37:09] Devin Rippner: vineyard is very informed by grower practices. We have a grower board that like helps us make decisions. A message that I will say is like science is science and science is often pretty, you know, Like straight laced and rigid because it must be. know, We're going to find things and those results hopefully will be interesting. [00:37:27] But it's not the be all and end all . of science and research. Growers continuing to try innovative things push the boundaries of what they think is possible is really how we get progress. And I am hopeful , once this vineyard is more established to start going back out and working with growers. [00:37:48] When I first started in Prosser, I sampled from probably 40 different vineyards around the state just to get an idea of what the soil properties were like. And we've done some, some experiments with that. Some of our results are that permanganate oxidize oxidizable carbon. So this POC C classically it's been called active carbon. [00:38:08] There's some new research that suggests that it's, that's maybe a misnomer and it's really, often plant derived carbon. [00:38:15] It seems like there are some effects from that, that suppress disease. And I think that , that's an area where growers can really kind of play around and see if there's , waste from their vineyard and applying it to their vines trying to look at what that does to their, POC C values and also try, just getting in trying to look at some of the past issues that those vines may have and see if there's any decreases. [00:38:41] A lot of observational science is really important. I like hearing from growers that, yeah, I did this thing and it looks like it made a difference. There's a lot of value in that and, and I don't discount like grower knowledge in any way, shape, or form. Like it is deep knowledge growers know things that I don't, and I find that out all the time. [00:39:02] I value those observations. They they give me guidance on how I want to do my work. And we do try to incorporate that stuff into the soil health vineyard. Over time we are going to have to figure out like, You know, can we sustain funding for a vineyard for, say, 50 years if all we're doing is like a cover crop, some compost, and then a mix? [00:39:23] That seems like it's maybe not the most sustainable thing. Science requires that type of stuff, but it's just not that sustainable. So finding ways to make use of our, border rows and stuff like that is going to be important. And a lot of the research that we do is going to be informed by grower observations. [00:39:39] Craig Macmillan: Yep. Yep. Exactly. Where can people find out more about you and your work? [00:39:44] Devin Rippner: Sure. So you can look me up online. Devin Rippner a lot of stuff will pop up. There's a USDA website that has a listing of my publications and things like that. I also have a personal website. So those are some places to, to check out my work. [00:40:00] I try to make sure that my stuff is open access and usable. So, like the deep learning code, the image segmentation code that I co developed for X ray ct work is now being applied to like other types of imaging on. So people are using it at hops and a variety of other things on. [00:40:18] So that code is online. Like you can find it it's associated with my papers. You can play around with it and try it with your own stuff. Mhm. And, and, and that's a big thing for me is like open data. I, I love sharing a lot of the, the data that I have and the code that I have so that people can, repeat what I did. [00:40:35] Look me up online and yeah, you'll be, you can find that, find those resources. [00:40:40] Craig Macmillan: we will have links to a lot of that on the show page. So please visit the show page and check this stuff out. I was really happy to hear you use the word repeatability. [00:40:49] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:40:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. And I also was really, it's hard. it's very, very hard and it's often overlooked. You know, the, , the scientific methods we know today was all built around the idea of repeatability. That's how you demonstrate whether something's real, real, or if it's only real under certain conditions, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's really great. I'm glad you're doing that. [00:41:08] Well, I want to thank you for being on the podcast. This is a Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with USDA agricultural research service and an adjunct position with the crop and soil science department at Washington state university. Really fun conversation, Devin, lots to think about. I will be following this closely. Or annually, probably [00:41:31] Devin Rippner: Cool. [00:41:31] Yeah. [00:41:32] Craig Macmillan: these things are slow. I'm not going to be checking every week. But I just think it's really cool project and is real inspiration. And I would love to see the same kind of thing replicated in other places. [00:41:41] Devin Rippner: Great. Thanks Craig. That was really fun. [00:41:43] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:41:49] If you enjoyed this podcast, Vineyard Team has a couple of in field tailgate meetings coming up this year that you won't want to miss. [00:41:56] The first is on February 20th in Paso Robles, and it is a dry farming grower around table. Now you don't need to be a dry farmer to enjoy this event. There'll be a number of different growers here talking about their experiences, trials, challenges, and successes. [00:42:13] The second event is on March 12th, and it is Grazing as a Sustainable Practice for Vineyards, taking place in Los Olivos, and we hope to have some adorable sheep on site. [00:42:24] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Dev lots of research articles, plus, sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 80. The Goldilocks principle and powdery mildew management, 90 nematode management for Washington grapes, plus a whole healthy soils playlist. [00:42:42] Now for the fine print, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of the USDA ARS. As such, the views, thoughts, and opinions. Presented by the speaker do not constitute an official endorsement or approval by the United States Department of Agriculture or the Agricultural Research Service of any product or service to the exclusion of others that may be suitable. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. [00:43:14] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam. org. [00:43:28] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

For over 50 years Cakebread Cellars has been making premium Napa Valley wines.  For the first time, they are expanding their expertise to San Luis Obispo Coast and Paso Robles to produce a new wine called Bezel.  While the popularity and iconic brand of Cakebread Cellars will attract new buyers and consumers, the wine's high quality will have them coming back to buy again.  Bezel is focusing on the four most popular varietals in the US, and maintaining their very high standards for quality, green farming and great marketing. Nick Poletto is the Vice President of Education at Kobrand Corporation. Kobrand has been importing fine wine into the US since 1944. Kobrand is a family owned importer with quality wine as its main focus. Nick Poletto travels around the US teaching sales teams about wine and the many different producing regions. Nick has visited all of these properties around the globe and brings you the most complete information with the most important sales tips. For more information, visit our website at https://www.kobrandwineandspirits.com  Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/kobrandwines  For more wine education visit https://wine365.com  or view Nick's Wine Journal https://www.youtube.com/@nickyvino1  Good selling!

Is cheap auto repair is costing you more? In this episode of the LIFT Your Shop Podcast, we sit down with Jimmy Purdy, owner of Shift'N Gears Auto Repair in Paso Robles, CA, and host of The Gearbox Podcast. Jimmy shares his insights on the true cost of discounting services, how to build a profitable auto repair business, and why there's more to business than making money—it's about supporting your employees and giving back to your community. We discuss: The importance of pricing correctly to provide for your team Effectively working with your marketing company The mindset shift that helps shop owners grow and thrive Tune in for a real talk episode packed with valuable insights, recommendations, and ownership takeaways for auto shop owners. Stay Connected: Find Jimmy on Facebook or on The Gearbox Podcast, available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Justin Drinking Justin@TablasCreek @JustinVineyards @DaouFamilyEstates #PasoRobles #WineLovers #podcast #radioshow #host Co hosts : Good ol Boy Justin, Made Man Maury, Made Man BobSIPS – Paso Robles Uncorked! Get ready to uncork the hidden gems of Paso Robles in this special wine episode. Join the good ol' boys as they explore the vibrant wines of this lesser-known Californian wine region. Immerse yourself in the stories behind these wines, with insights into the winemaking philosophies of these winemakers. Discover the rare varietals like Vacarese and the meticulous craftsmanship behind the Soul of Lion 2021. It's a wine journey filled with rich flavors and engaging banter. Whether you're a seasoned wine enthusiast or a curious newcomer, this episode offers a delightful exploration of Paso Robles, with wines that promise to surprise and satisfy. Raise a glass and join us for a sip-worthy adventure! We will be discussing these wines and rating them from 1-5 with 5 being the best:11:20 Tablas Creek Esprit Blanc de Tablas 2022                           4 SIPS13:48 Tablas Creek Patelin de Tablas Rose 2023                           4 SIPS19:11 Tablas Creek Vaccarese 2023                                            4 SIPS23:57 Justin Sauvignon Blanc 2023                                              3 SIPS29:02 Justin Rose 2023                                                                   4 SIPS32:29 Justin Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon 2021                           5 SIPS38:13 Justin Isosceles 2021                                                           4 SIPS43:46 DAOU Soul of a Lion 2021                                                  5 SIPSinfo@sipssudsandsmokes.com X- @sipssudssmokes IG/FB - @sipssudsandsmokes Sips, Suds, & Smokes® is produced by One Tan Hand Productions using the power of beer, whiskey, and golf. Available on Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, Spotify, Pandora, iHeart, and nearly anywhere you can find a podcast.Enjoying that cool Outro Music, it's from Woods & Whitehead – Back Roads Download your copy here:https://amzn.to/2XblorcThe easiest way to find this award winning podcast on your phone is ask Alexa, Siri or Google, “Play Podcast , Sips, Suds, & Smokes” Credits:TITLE: Maxwell Swing & FlapperjackPERFORMED BY: Texas GypsiesCOMPOSED BY: Steven R Curry (BMI)PUBLISHED BY: Alliance AudioSparx (BMI)COURTESY OF: AudioSparx TITLE: Back RoadsPERFORMED BY: Woods & WhiteheadCOMPOSED BY: Terry WhiteheadPUBLISHED BY: Terry WhiteheadCOURTESY OF: Terry WhiteheadPost production services : Pro Podcast SolutionsAdvertising sales: Contact us directlyContent hosting services: Audioport, Earshot, Radio4All, & PodBeanProducer: Made Man Bob

In this episode of 'The Biggest Table,' I welcome Neeta Mittal, co-founder of LXV Wine, to discuss her unique journey from growing up in India to establishing a prestigious winery in Paso Robles, California. Neeta shares insights about her upbringing surrounded by diverse culinary traditions and the influence of her meticulous mother. She recounts her educational path at UC Berkeley, the serendipitous discovery of Paso Robles, and her deep passion for wine culture inspired by European traditions. Neeta explains LXV Wine's focus on creating textured, age-worthy wines with a blend of global spices, aimed at fostering a shared, immersive experience. The conversation delves into her advocacy for innovation, community involvement, and the meaningful connections formed through wine. Additionally, Neeta reflects on her role in a predominantly white male industry, embracing her distinctive background as an advantage. She concludes by highlighting the significance of wine as a rich, sensory-driven journey intertwined with history, culture, and personal experiences.Born in India, Neeta Mittal grew up immersed in tradition, creativity, and a drive for excellence. After graduating from UC Berkeley and honing her storytelling craft in Hollywood, Neeta channeled her passion for wine into founding LXV Wine with her husband, Kunal. LXV pairs premium wines with globally inspired spices, creating immersive experiences that celebrate flavor and terroir. Named one of USA Today's Top 10 Wine Tasting Experiences in America, LXV reflects Neeta's philosophy: “Double down on who you are.” As a leader in Paso Robles, she champions innovation, community, and a legacy of connection through wine and storytelling.LXV Wine websiteFollow LXV Wine on InstagramThis episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com. 

The Rotary Club of Paso Robles will be accepting scholarship applications until midnight on February 13th, 2025 for the $100,000 in scholarships to be distributed this year to Paso Robles students. Rotary Club of Paso Robles City: Paso Robles Address: P.O. Box 3641 Website: https://www.pasoroblesrotary.org/

Got big goals for your shop this year? Shop Boss can take them to the next level!Todd Westerlund is an industry vet. Over 15 years of technical experience and more than 18 years in the repair shop coaching. Todd is a believer in opening your shop seven days a week for ultimate customer service. He also shares advice on how to make your processes more efficient. 00:00 Industry Insights & Training07:25 Technician's Journey: 15 Years Experience10:46 Hands-On Training Initiative20:16 Flexible Work Schedules Benefit All23:15 Balancing Technician Ego and Client Needs29:42 Problem Solving in Auto Repair33:42 Overwhelmed by Work Demands38:17 Investing in Employees' Future42:25 "Streamlining Inspection Process"47:43 "Confession About Car Brake Negligence"56:42 "Prioritizing Morally Right Hospitality"58:03 "Open Invitation despite Poor Reviews"01:05:55 Welcoming Shop Tour Experience01:12:05 Call Center Amplifies Pre-booking Revenue01:16:06 "Shops Boost Sales with Callbacks"01:19:14 Bones: Protection Against Slips

With a second year of volume declines, 2024 has been challenging for the wine industry. Digging deeper into what trends are shaping the wine industry's malaise, Cathy and Chris Huyghe, founders of sales analytics software platform Enolytics, have uncovered important insights into the US DTC wine market, including the decline of women and the divide between the affluent and middle class in wine purchasing. Enolytics has also developed a free service for the industry called EnoInsights, which is worth checking out.  Detailed Show Notes: Enolytics launched b/c no one in wine knew what to do with their data Builds sales analytics software for the wine & spirits industry for both DTC and wholesale depletion dataCustomers primarily small (

Step into the eerie world of Chelsea, whose childhood home in Paso Robles was a hotbed of paranormal activity. But the chills didn't stop when she moved away—these entities seem to have followed her into adulthood. As Chelsea unravels her family's history, she uncovers a dark secret: her grandfather's involvement in occult rituals might be the key to her lifelong connection with the supernatural. Join us as we explore her strange haunting experiences and dive into the generational mysteries that may have unleashed something beyond our world. blurrycreatures.com/members

In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any will grow there at all. Joel Harms, Ph.D. student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow pinot noire in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. The project mapped 1,300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a crucial role in identifying the winegrowing regions of tomorrow. Resources:         207: Managing Catastrophic Loss in Vineyards: Lessons from Cyclone Gabrielle in New Zealand Cal-Adapt Development of a generative AI-based model for guiding grape variety selection under contemporary climate dynamics Generative AI for Climate-Adaptive Viticulture Development Joel Harms Google Scholar Page Mapping Global of the Potential for Pinot Noir Cultivation under Climate Uncertainty using Generative AI University of Adelaide Wine Economics Research Center Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any, will grow there at all. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Joel Harms, PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia. [00:00:42] Joel is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow Pinot Noir in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. [00:00:52] The project mapped 1, 300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data. including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a critical role in identifying the wine growing regions of tomorrow. [00:01:07] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start? Become a member of the Vineyard Team. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community today. Now let's listen in. [00:01:34] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Joel Harms. He's a PhD student in the Department of Bioresources Engineering at McGill University. And today we're going to talk about mapping global future potential for Pinot Noir cultivation under climate uncertainty using generative AI. [00:01:51] Bye. Bye. This is a really interesting topic. I came across an abstract from a recent ASEV meeting and I was like, I just have to know more about this. This just sounds too interesting. But welcome to the podcast, Joel. [00:02:04] Joel Harms: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. [00:02:06] Craig Macmillan: What got you interested in this topic in terms of this wine grape region? Stuff. [00:02:12] Joel Harms: I think it was more about I wanted to build models that are useful, I guess, broadly useful in vineyard management and like establishing new vineyards and like kind of covering some of the base problems. Initially, my thought was, how can we. see which grape varieties are alike. [00:02:32] How can we like make a representation of them in like a latent space. But then I found out , if I do that, that's, you know, somewhat useful, but if I take that just a step further, I could just connect it with climate data already. And then we would have a model that could, be used for prediction and it would be so I guess. How do I say like broad or general enough so that you could apply it in any environment. So like any climate can be used to predict any grape suitability matrix, which is quite nice. And so then I thought, no, let's do it. Let's try that. [00:03:11] Craig Macmillan: So your colleagues and yourself did some simulations, as we just mentioned specifically around Pinot Noir and the potential to grow it in different parts of the world that currently are considered too cool. Tell us exactly how you went about this. [00:03:25] Joel Harms: The abstract is kind of a case study on one application of, These models that we built. So we built very general grape variety recommender systems based on climate. And so we wanted to show a cool application globally. This can be applied to find regions that will be too hot in the future. [00:03:43] So we built the AI models first starting from looking at where grapes are grown and tying that together with what climate is there regionally. Unfortunately, you know, we can't use like very precise climate data because we don't have the exact location of each grape variety in each region. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: hmm. Yep. [00:04:03] Joel Harms: Yeah. So therefore, we use larger climate data. So like at 50 kilometer resolution, which is still helpful to, I think, gather overall trends, not so much, you know, to plan an individual vineyard probably, but just to see like in which areas maybe there would be. in the future interesting vineyard sites. [00:04:23] Just like kind of as like a pre guidance sort of model. And then we, tested it. We tried to validate this model and then we presented a first case study with Pinot Noir because we were presenting in Oregon at the ASEV conference. So I figured, you know, might as well do Pinot Noir if we're already in Oregon. [00:04:43] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain to me the artificial intelligence piece of this? I mean, you hear about it and you know, kind of what different types of AI do. I don't think a lot of people realize that, you know, that's a very general concept and people have designed particular tools for particular reasons. [00:05:01] So, in this case, what exactly was the AI component? What's inside the box, basically? How does it work? [00:05:07] Joel Harms: First off, I guess to explain for listeners , cause AI does get thrown around a lot and it's hard to know what that actually means. So when we're talking about AI, it's usually we're tying some sort of input data to some sort of output data. And we're teaching a very complicated mathematical function to map one to the other. [00:05:25] So like kind of a correlation. But it's not a simple correlation. That's why we need these models and that's why they're pretty fancy. [00:05:31] So in our case, we're using an AI that was inspired from the community of medical science, where similar models were used to connect, for example, the ECG measurements of a heart with like scans of the heart. [00:05:50] And then Trying to tie both of those datas together and to reconstruct them again to see if, like, you could find correlations between those and maybe if one of them is missing, you could, , predict what it would look like. And so, since this is a very similar problem, , and we have similar input data in the sense of, we have grapes, which grapes are grown where, and we have what is the climate there, roughly. [00:06:13] So we can tie that together and try to connect both of those types of data and then get an output of both of those types of data so that we can go from grapes to climate and climate to grapes in the same model. So we have these , you could say like four models. that are tied together at the center. So input grapes, input climate, then in the center where they get tied together and then output grapes, output climate. And so we train it to, reconstruct it from this combined space where we like, Scrunch it down, which is what the autoencoder does. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: So if, if I understand correctly, what we're talking about is , we know that we have the data and we know where wine grapes are grown, different types for different climates. Then we have the climate data in terms of how things may change over time. And then we're creating a prediction of. How those climates change, and then translate that into what we already know about wine grapes. [00:07:09] Joel Harms: Sort of. Yeah. But in our model for training, we just use the existing ones. So historical climate data and historical grape variety data. Once we have that model trained, we just apply it for new climates that come from like other climate models. So we don't do the climate modeling ourselves, but we extract that information and feed that into it and get the grape varieties output. [00:07:31] Craig Macmillan: So you look specifically, at least reported on areas that currently are considered too cold for growing a high quality pinot noir or growing wine grapes in general. What did you find out? What Parts of the world might be the new leading Pinot Noir regions. [00:07:46] Joel Harms: . So that depends a little bit on the exact scenario and how much the climate is supposed to warm. We have like two scenarios is what we looked at. We looked at a 8. 5 scenario and a 2. 6 scenario and going by the 8. 5 scenario, some of the regions that are improving are for example, Western China. And also Southern California, actually, and Quebec, , like Southern California is in Santa Barbara. I guess that's technically Central Coast, [00:08:17] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, well, that's interesting There's a lot of Pinot Noir in Santa Barbara County in the in the coastal zones Any other regions that popped up? [00:08:26] Joel Harms: Yeah, a lot of Australia seems to be doing better and like Northern France, [00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Yeah pushing it to the north. Did England pop up? [00:08:35] Joel Harms: England, yes, but England seems to like stay the same in compared to historical. So not like as if it's improving, at least like from this, like rough map that we made. What we want to do is do it a bit more finely. The, this prediction, because we currently just used regions where wine is already grown, but then try to like interpolate just for calculation efficiency. Outward. So like our maps are created not only by the model itself, because that would be too calculation intensive. So for the, for the sake of simplicity, we did it like this, but we're still writing the final paper. So, you know, don't invest just yet, wait a little bit and then, [00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: I was gonna bring that up. Where should I put my money? [00:09:19] Joel Harms: Exactly. So don't do that yet. Wait for the final paper and then we will double check everything over. Oh yeah. Arkansas was one that was improving too. Very interestingly. Yeah. [00:09:28] Craig Macmillan: I was kind of surprised because having talked to guests, many guests from, you know, New York, from Texas, from people who consult in the Southwest Northern California, which can get quite warm. What we've talked about is the question of it getting too hot to grow quality wine grapes. [00:09:49] You know, wine grapes will grow to tolerate quite high temperatures. So, for instance, the San Joaquin Valley in California, produces a lot of wine grapes. They're not considered to be very high quality compared to coastal zones. So the vines do great and produce good crops and all of that. So there's concern that areas that have been kind of in the sweet spot, kind of in the, we call it the Goldilocks phenomenon where climate, soil, time, everything just all kind of fits together. [00:10:12] It sounds like this idea would be applicable to predicting what areas might become too warm for high quality wine [00:10:19] Joel Harms: Yes. Yes. It's definitely the case. Yes. And in our maps. You can see both at the same time because it sees like relative change, positive, relative change to, to negative. Some areas that look like they're not going to do so well in the future or less good in the future, even though they're like really good right now is like Oregon, unfortunately. [00:10:39] And the Azores or Northern Spain, even in Eastern Europe, a lot of areas. Seem to be warming up like in Romania at the coast. Not necessarily just the warming up part, but also because we consider 16 different climate variables, it could be the warming up part, but it could also be, you know, like the precipitation changing things like that, you know. [00:10:59] Craig Macmillan: You said 16 variables, we talked, you got temperature, you got precipitation, what, what are some of the others? [00:11:04] Joel Harms: Yeah, we got the growing degree days, the winter index, we got the Huggins index, we have radiation. Diurnal temperature range, the annual average temperature, for the precipitation, we have it like a three different scales, in the harvest month over the growing season and also throughout the whole year same for the temperature. And then we have the, growing indexes [00:11:26] Craig Macmillan: do you have plans to do this kind of thing again? Or publish additional papers from the work you've already done, because I think, it sounds like you've got a lot of interesting findings, [00:11:35] Joel Harms: Oh yeah. Yeah. The results only came in like right before the conference. We're still analyzing everything, writing everything. So the first thing that's coming up is a paper just on , how did we build the model and like all the validations and does it make sense with like expert classifications of how experts classify suitability for grapevines and things like that in the past to see if. That lines up as it should yeah, and then after that we'll publish some of these predictions and what we can learn from these and more detailed than how we did it right now where, most of it's like interpolated because we couldn't predict for every location, so like we predicted for some locations and interpolated. Just for computational efficiency, I guess, but you know, we're, we're getting there. Unfortunately, academia is quite you know, a slow profession. takes a lot of time. [00:12:24] Craig Macmillan: Yes, yes it does. And then getting it published takes a lot of time with reviews and whatnot. And so I just want to put a time stamp on this. This is being recorded in October of 2024. So, Give it some months, at least several, several, several, several. But it's exciting. This stuff's coming out. It'll be in, be in the literature. That's really, really great. [00:12:43] Joel Harms: And soon what we're trying to do is also release like a tool or something that, you know, where people can input their location and we can, our climate data, like call out the climate data and see what, what some of the predictions would be. Yeah. [00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that's neat. [00:12:59] Joel Harms: I might've done that for Niner Vineyards just now to see, to see what, what's a suitable there, but only the current ones. [00:13:08] So I mean, it's kind of is exactly what you're growing. [00:13:10] Craig Macmillan: Funny. You should mention that. There is a a website called CalAdapt that allows you to put in some ranges and some variables specific to your location, you put your location in, and then there's a number of different models that you can run. Some are very conservative, some are not in terms of what the predictions are for climate change globally. [00:13:31] And then gives you a nice report on what the average temperature change might be in degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius also takes a stab at precipitation, although I talked to somebody who was connected to that and they said the precipitation is always kind of questionable. And also looks at things like heat waves, how many heat waves days over 100 or days over 95, you might expect because those can be quite fluctuating. [00:13:55] damaging. Even, even though vines can tolerate heat, if they're not acclimated, getting these big stretches of over a hundred, for instance, can be kind of stressful. I did that and kind of looked at it myself and thought, huh, I wonder if we had better, more, um, detailed information, what that might look like. [00:14:12] Another tool that was mentioned that you used was a deep coupled auto incoder networks. What are those? [00:14:18] Joel Harms: So that was what I described earlier, like these component models , where we have a. The encoder and decoder part, the input part is the , encoder and the output part is the decoder. And in the middle of these we have a latent space and then the coupled part means that we're having multiple of these that share their latent space. [00:14:38] So that's , where we're tying them together so that we can input either climate or grapes and get as outputs either climates or grapes. So it's like very, very flexible in that way and so I quite like that. And it turns out it does better than even some more traditional approaches where you just feed in climate and get out grapes like from a neural network or something like that. [00:14:59] Just like a neural network, because we have technically like four neural networks and all of them have three layers. So that's three layers or more. And so that's what makes them deep. [00:15:08] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:15:09] Is this your primary work as a PhD student? [00:15:13] Joel Harms: Well, as a PhD student, I'm still working on modeling. But not so much with grapevines, unfortunately. I'm looking at still climate models. How can we adapt for example, now we're looking more at the Caribbean. There's flooding issues. Particularly in Guyana. And so we're trying to, you know, help maybe the government to plan land use better in order to avoid, you know, critical areas being flooded, agricultural land being flooded and these type of things. [00:15:41] So it's more looking at flooding modeling, there's definitely some overlap in that sort of work, it's definitely still like in the area of using data science to help decision making which is the overall theme of this work. [00:15:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, and that was something that also came up in my little mini project was the potential for massive storms and also the potential for drought. Which, wasn't part of your work at this stage. Is that something that you would be able to find a way of including in your modeling that might give you some idea of how things might change? [00:16:15] And it's specifically what I'm thinking of is Cyclone Gabriel, I believe it was called, Gabriella just devastated parts of New Zealand. And raised a lot of concern about how, you know, when we were in these coastal zones, we go, Oh, yes, it's mild. It's great. But we're right near the ocean. [00:16:33] Right. And in October between 24, we've seen a very active hurricane season in the Caribbean and on the East coast and the Gulf. Do you think there's potential for this kind of thing to give us more of a heads up about what might be coming our way in terms of massive storm events? Cause that might affect how and what I do. [00:16:52] Joel Harms: I guess this wouldn't depend really on the grape variety itself. That would be more like a citing issue, right? Like where do you plant? [00:16:58] That's what we're looking at now with the like flooding mapping if there is a storm, where does the water collect? Which roads are cut off? Or, I mean, I guess in the case of vineyards, you could look at like, what would be the likely damage would there be now saltwater maybe even if you're depending on where you are. That's definitely something to look at. [00:17:17] All you need is sufficient, like past data points. So you can calibrate your models and then. You know, look at different future scenarios and what will be important to for the future is to look at what's kind of the certainty of these predictions, right? Like, what are your error margins? What's your confidence interval? [00:17:33] Because that might drastically alter your decisions. If it says, oh, it's probably not going to be too bad, but you're very uncertain about that, then you're probably going to take some more precautions than, you know, not because usually now we have A lot of models where their prediction is very, like is deterministic. [00:17:50] So they say, this is how it will be. And it's hard to tell where, you know, where those margins are of error, which is something to look at in the future for sure. [00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that is a challenge in the the model that I did for a Paso Robles vineyard Precipitation didn't really change very much which I was surprised by so it wasn't gonna become like a drought area completely but the potential ranged from five inches of rain a year to 60 inches of rain a year, which is why I was asking about these massive storms. [00:18:21] Maybe our averages, continuous to what we have now, but it may be a bunch of craziness year to year around that. And I think that is interesting and useful to know. So you prepare for it. [00:18:34] Joel Harms: that's something people are looking at, I think cause you can use some models to calculate sort of new climate indices. To see like from daily data train, like new climate indices to see these big storm events and things like that, and maybe incorporate that. That could help, , maybe with that sort of analysis of where even if it's the same average, the index is different because it measures something else. [00:18:59] Yes, I wouldn't know what they're called, but yes, I believe this already exists and is being improved. . [00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Yeah. With your experience so far, what do you see? Because everybody's talking about this. It's like the future in a world of artificial intelligence and this and that. In this particular area where you're, you're tying one set of variables to climate variables and also to historical weather. [00:19:23] In the big picture, beyond just wine grapes, but in the big picture, any topic, where do you see this kind of work going? You touched on it a little bit, when you close your eyes and open your mind what does the future look like? What, kind of tools are we going to have and what kind of things are we going to be able to find out? [00:19:38] Joel Harms: Yeah, that's interesting. I think it, it really depends on the data we have available and it looks like we'll have more and more data available. [00:19:47] So better disease models, location specific disease models to plan spray schedules better and things like that, they seem to be coming. I think I've seen parts of that already from some companies rolling out. [00:20:00] It's all about kind of the creatively using the data that you have available, because a lot of like my data, for example, that I used for this. This isn't necessarily new data, right? This comes from the University of Adelaide who collects where, which grape varieties are grown all over the world. [00:20:17] And then just historical, climate data. It's not very new, but just to put these together in a meaningful way with AI, that's going to be the challenge. And then also to test, is this reliable or not? Because you could theoretically predict almost anything, but then you need to check, is it just correlation? [00:20:39] Am I taking all the important variables into account? And we're developing AI very, very fast. But maybe we need to spend a bit more time, you know, trying to validate it, trying to see how robust it is, which is a major challenge, especially with these complicated models, because, I heard about this example. [00:20:57] Where in the past, for some self driving cars, their AI that recognized stop signs could be tricked if there was a sticker on the stop sign, and it would ignore the stop sign. Even though there's not a big difference, but you can't test for, you know, all of these cases, what might happen. And that's kind of the same for, , what we are doing. [00:21:17] So improving the testing, that would be, I think, a major A major goal to make sure it's robust and reliable or that it tells you how, how certain it is, you know, then at least you can deal with it, you know, and not just make a decision off of that. Yeah, [00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. What the level of uncertainty is. That's always the getcha. [00:21:33] Joel Harms: yes, [00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: That's always the hard part. If you had one thing that you would tell growers on this topic, what would it be? Mm [00:21:43] Joel Harms: Specifically for my models, it would be to take the current results with a grain of salt. And then to sort of use this to, narrow down like a selection of grapes and to still run tests and things like that. Cause it's regional data, right? It's not going to tell you exactly what you should grow in your location. [00:22:02] Cause it's, you know, the weather data is based on four to 50 kilometers around you. You know, that's where we're like assembling the data from. [00:22:10] Craig Macmillan: that a 50 kilometer quadrant? [00:22:12] Joel Harms: yes. Yeah. [00:22:13] Craig Macmillan: Yep. Okay. Gotcha. [00:22:14] Joel Harms: Yes, exactly. So this tool is mainly used or useful if you use it to like pre select some varieties so you can see what might be good, you know, and then decide for yourself what you want. [00:22:27] The take home message is like, it's not supposed to take away grape growing experts and things like that, or replace them in any way, but it's supposed to like support it because. There's so many grape varieties and if climate regions or like regions where we're growing grapes are changing, where the climate is changing, we want to get the best choice. [00:22:47] And so we should probably look at all of them, all of our available options and see what we can do. It will narrow it down for you. And then, you know, you'll still have to see what works exactly for you. What wine do you want to produce? I mean, it doesn't take that into account, right? It just gives you what probably would grow well here. [00:23:03] Craig Macmillan: . [00:23:03] Yeah, then I think that there's going to be a future also in bringing in some either hybrid varieties or varieties that are not terribly well known. I've talked to people from Texas and from Michigan Pennsylvania, where the traditional vinifera only varieties don't do pretty well. Terribly well, often because of cold hardiness because of cold winters, they don't handle it, but there's hybrids that do great and make interesting wine. [00:23:27] And I think that would be an interesting thing to include in a model or if it came out kind of like the winner was something we don't normally [00:23:33] Joel Harms: Right. Usually we have a lot of hybrids in this because we have 1, 300 varieties. [00:23:39] Craig Macmillan: wow. Oh, I didn't realize that. [00:23:41] Joel Harms: so I think we have most of the. commercially used grape varieties, like in all aspects. [00:23:48] Craig Macmillan: yeah, probably, probably. [00:23:49] Joel Harms: Yeah. So it's quite, quite far ranging. We only excluded some where it was never more than 1 percent of any region, because then like our model couldn't really learn what this grape variety needs. [00:24:00] Right. Because it's like too small, even in the largest region where it we cut those out. So, cause else we would have 1700. But then like the 1300 that actually get used commercially at a significant scale. Those we have. The model is actually built like we have a suitability index. [00:24:18] But we're still trying to, , fine adjust so that we can rank not just what's popular and like how much will grow. Cause then you'll always get, you know, the top, the top 10 will look very similar for any region. But then through the suitability index, we actually get a lot of these smaller varieties that would fit very well also ranked in the top 10 or in the top 50 of varieties. [00:24:41] Craig Macmillan: They've mentioned fine tuning the model at this point. Is this particular project or this particular model, is this gonna continue on into the future? It sounds you have ideas for improvements. Is this number one gonna continue on into the future and is there gonna come a point when This will be available for the industry, industries internationally to do their own trials. [00:25:03] Joel Harms: Yes, I think so. So I think when we're publishing the paper latest at that point, we'll have the tool set up where people can try it out, put in, in their location. And I guess we're publishing the methodology. So you could build like a version of this yourself. It's not too crazy. Probably code will be published too. [00:25:24] So, you know, you could build this yourself if you wanted to, or you could just use the models we have trained already. Okay. And just apply them to your case. That's what the tool is for. . Right now it's like all code based. So like, it's not, not so easy where you just, drop your pin, like where you're at and then it gives you some predictions, , that's what we're aiming for. [00:25:44] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. So our guest today has been Joel Harms. He is a PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill. University. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is really fascinating. I'm really looking forward to how this work progresses. And I think it's very eyeopening for us. [00:26:01] Again, you know, one of the things I thought was fascinating is I've had all these conversations about areas that would no longer be suitable, but a flip on it and say, well, areas that might be suitable in the future. I hadn't thought of that. [00:26:12] Joel Harms: Why not? You [00:26:13] Craig Macmillan: why not? You know, that's, that's, that's a very interesting question, and it applies to other crops as well. [00:26:18] I just had never really thought about it like that. You know, maybe you can grow oranges in Iowa at some point. [00:26:23] Joel Harms: That, that would be nice. I guess. [00:26:25] Craig Macmillan: maybe [00:26:26] Joel Harms: maybe see. [00:26:28] Craig Macmillan: we'll see. We'll see. You never know. Anyway, Joel, thanks for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. [00:26:33] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Cal West Rain. Since 1989, Cal West Rain has served growers on California's Central Coast and the San Joaquin Valley. As a locally owned, full line irrigation and pump company, they offer design and construction experience in all types of low volume irrigation systems, whether they're for vines, trees, or row crops. [00:27:03] In addition, CalWestRain offers a full range of pumps and pump services, plus expertise in automation systems, filtration systems, electrical service, maintenance and repairs, equipment rental, and a fully stocked parts department. Learn more at CalWestRain. com. [00:27:23] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Joel, his research articles, plus sustainable wine growing podcast episode 207. Managing Catastrophic Loss in Vineyards, Lessons from Cyclone Gabriel in New Zealand. If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. [00:27:44] You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to demand. At the time of this recording in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Audra Cooper Director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage discuss the challenges ag faces from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions to inflation. To remain viable, they stress the importance of farming a quality product that can be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. Resources:         185: Why You Need to Talk About Sustainability 221: Future Proof Your Wine Business with Omnichannel Communication Turrentine Brokerage Turrentine Brokerage - Newsletter United States Department of Agriculture Grape Cruse Report Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to consumer demand. At the time of this recording, in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. [00:00:23] I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director at Vineyard Team. And in today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker. At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:45] They discuss the challenges ag faced in 2024 from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions, to inflation, to remain viable. They stress the importance of farming a quality product that could be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. [00:01:04] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start? Become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam.org To become a member today. [00:01:25] Now let's listen in. [00:01:31] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper and Eddie Urman. Audra is director of grape brokerage with Turrentine brokerage. And Eddie is a grape broker for the central coast, also with Turrentine. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:01:42] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us. We're excited. [00:01:44] Eddie Urman: yeah, thanks for having us, Craig. [00:01:46] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is a wine and grape brokerage? [00:01:49] Audra Cooper: It's a really fancy term for matchmaking and finding homes for supply. Whether that's through growers having fruit available and needing to sell in a specific year or finding multi year contracts, or that's bulk wine that has been made in excess or maybe a call for a winery needing to find a way of A pressure release valve. [00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: And so you match buyers with sellers, basically. [00:02:13] Audra Cooper: Exactly. [00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: On both sides of the fence. Both the wine and the grape side. Do you have specialists for the grape side? Specialists for the wine side? [00:02:21] Audra Cooper: We do. , you're talking to our newest hire on the grape side, Eddie, who's going to be focused on the Central Coast. We also have Mike Needham in the Central Valley on grapes. Christian Clare in the North Coast specializing in Napa, Sonoma, Lake, and Mendocino on grapes. And then we have three bulk wine brokers, Mark Cuneo, William Goebel, and Steve Robertson. [00:02:40] Craig Macmillan: Your world is very dependent on the marketplace. Obviously, that's what you do. You're brokers. The simple model of quote unquote the market. I think for most people is that you have a consumer who buys wine, wineries make wine, and they sell it to those people who buy it. Vineyards grow grapes up to wineries. [00:02:57] So if there's more demand from consumers, that means there's , more grapes in demand, there's more wine in demand, and there should be higher prices. Or the opposite. That's probably really oversimplified given the unique nature of the wine industry, because , it's not a widget, you know, I don't make a widget, sell it, then go, Ooh, I can make more widgets. [00:03:16] So because of the nature of the business things are on much larger timeframes, right? Audra, [00:03:23] Audra Cooper: They are. I mean, agriculture by nature is, a little bit more of a, what we call an on ramp and off ramp. There's kind of that distance from the time that something is needed versus the time it can be produced. And in the wine industry, it's really difficult to plant to demand. And oftentimes we miss the boat regards to meeting demand with our current supply needs. [00:03:44] So it's really difficult to not only predict, but figure out where consumption is going. And you talked about kind of the simplicity of it and it is true. You can kind of look at the macro market in a very simplistic way, but the reality is in particularly with California, it's very segmented. From value tier up to premium to ultra premium to luxury, and all of those different tiers have different timelines, and some of them converge at moments, depending upon whether there were oversupplied or undersupplied, . So yeah, it can get really complicated and very, very multifaceted. [00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: What's your comment on that, Eddie? [00:04:21] Eddie Urman: Well, I think Audra summed it up pretty well, but yeah, it's a very complex integration of all these things, and planting grapes oftentimes, like Audra said, we tend to overdo it. And we then tend to overdo pushing them out. And it's just kind of a cyclical thing through history where we go from undersupply to oversupply. And right now we're obviously in a pretty large state of oversupply. [00:04:44] Craig Macmillan: Over supply in terms of grapes? [00:04:46] Eddie Urman: Correct [00:04:47] Audra Cooper: and bulk wine. [00:04:48] Craig Macmillan: And bulk wine [00:04:49] what are the kinds of things that are going to lead to a market correction there? Are people going to have to pull out vines? Are they going to have to say, Well, I was planning to sell this wine for 20 bucks a gallon, now I'm going to sell it for 10. [00:05:00] What are some of the dynamics that are going to happen during this time? [00:05:04] Eddie Urman: Well, I think the third rung is consumption, right? Unfortunately the trend over the last two years is consumption is going down in general. And we don't see any signs of it at this time. That's showing it's necessarily going up. We're optimistic and hopeful that it will. And we look forward to seeing the data after the holiday season, but that rung is going to be really important. [00:05:25] The other part is still supply. So pushing vineyards. And we are seeing a lot of people push vineyards. There's no clear number yet of what's been pushed or what will be pushed, but it does seem like there's a lot of parties that will be either ceasing to farm or will be removing vineyards. [00:05:41] Craig Macmillan: This is for either of you to pick up. Are there particular segments where we're seeing this more than in others? Premium versus luxury example. [00:05:48] Audra Cooper: The removal seemed to be really heavily weighted towards the Valley specifically, more of the value tier, because that's our largest volume by far. So we see a lot of removals, particularly in the South Valley that really started to occur even before we felt really oversupplied, and then it started to move north from there, pushed into the Central Coast and even to some degree the North Coast as well. [00:06:10] So you're seeing removals throughout the state of California, and you could even argue that you've seen removals in the Pacific Northwest as well, there's been an oversupply position there, particularly in Washington, and the only two areas that we don't see that dynamic is perhaps Texas to a degree, as well as Oregon. [00:06:27] But there again, they're starting to feel oversupplied as well. They're kind of on the back end of this [00:06:31] the Central Valley is the furthest ahead. And so we may actually see a little bit of a slowdown in removals. They're coming up after the 26th vintage. However, it remains to be seen. I mean, water , constrictions and regulations are going to play a huge factor in that as well, as it will be in the central coast in the near future. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Are there alternate or other crops that may go in, into place instead of grapes? [00:06:53] Audra Cooper: Unfortunately, right now, there's not a good answer for that. In the past, you'd say yes. And there were several alternative crops, particularly in the valley and the central coast, especially when you think of Santa Barbara and Monterey County. Paso Robles is in a little bit of a different position without, you know, a true crop to turn over to. But all of agriculture in California is struggling and has been really affected in the last 24 months, [00:07:16] Craig Macmillan: why the last 24 months, do you think? [00:07:18] Audra Cooper: you know, that's a good question. Part of it is kind of weather patterns in regards to some larger crops and oversupply consumers have certainly had some. Tighter budgets in a lot of respects to the economy. Inflation has played a huge role in that. When we talk about the wine industry, the wine industry is not a necessity as far as the goods. There is certainly a movement towards, you know, what they call no amount of alcohol is healthy for any individual of drinking age. So that certainly has affected our industry, but it's also affected other crops as well and other, other beverages, specifically alcohol. [00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, in the Central Coast, what, what have you been seeing? [00:07:56] Eddie Urman: As far as vendor removals or as [00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, as far as vineyard removals, things like that. [00:08:01] Eddie Urman: I mean, there are a large number of vineyards that are being pushed out. It's substantial both in Monterey County in Paso Robles, there's parties we're talking to that are also talking about pushing. This upcoming year and not replanting for a year or two. Some are potentially considering alternate other options where they can. But to segue on that, unfortunately it is exceedingly difficult right now to go to any other crop. Cause none of them are necessarily performing super well. [00:08:28] Craig Macmillan: Right. One thing that I'm kind of surprised by based on what you said, Audra, was that we're having the most removal in that value segment where we have the most supply. It would seem to me that if demand out there in the marketplace and folks don't have a lot of money, it seems like there'd be more demand for those value products. [00:08:48] Like, I would think that the contraction would be at the higher level, the expensive level, as opposed to the lower price level. Is there a mechanism there that I'm missing? [00:08:56] Audra Cooper: I think there's not necessarily a mechanism per se. I think there's a layer of complication there that doesn't make it a simple apples to apples position in regards to where consumers are spending their money. A lot of consumers who are brought by, you know, ultra premium to luxury, they may have not been as affected in a relative sense by the economy and inflation is someone who is perhaps playing in more of that value tier. [00:09:21] Okay. Whether it was bag in a box, larger liter, whatever it may have been, you know, that tier that's 12.99 and below had already started to see some impacts during pre immunization. And that was from 2012 until about 2020. And then it's just been really wonky since 2020 in our industry and really difficult to read the tea leaves and as far as where things were going. And I think a lot of the new plantings that we did, In 2011 through 2016 really came online in the central valley as well. So it just, it was almost a perfect storm, unfortunately, for the value tier. But that's not to say that these other tiers haven't been impacted as well, just to a lesser degree. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly. Is this also true on the bulk wine side, Audra? [00:10:04] Audra Cooper: Oh, certainly. I think anytime that you look at our industry, the bulk wine market actually leads the trend in regards to the direction we're going. So anytime we start to see multiple vintages, Or one vintage really start to increase in volume and availability in all likelihood. We're about 12 months, maybe eight behind the market with grapes. [00:10:25] So bulk will start to kind of slow down, stack up on inventory. Prices will start to drop. We'll still be doing just fine on grapes. We'll get multi year contracts. Prices are at least sustainable, if not profitable. And then suddenly we'll start to see the same trend on grapes. [00:10:39] Craig Macmillan: How many, or, and Eddie might be able to answer this for the Central Coast. How many folks on the grape side are having wines made from their grapes? Like under contract strictly for bulk. I've got a hundred tons of Sauvignon Blanc unsold. That's a lot, but unsold. I'm going to go ahead and take my chances on the bulk market. [00:11:00] Eddie Urman: you're saying Specking it. [00:11:01] So yeah, crushing it and specking it on the bulk market. Surely there are parties that did that, but I would say there is definitely a lot less parties that did that this year. In 2024 specifically. multiple reasons. One, specifically in Paso Robles, the crop was quite light which increased some late demand for some Cabernet specifically. [00:11:22] Sauvignon Blanc was one of the other varieties that was , in demand because of how light it was. Monterey in Santa Barbara County, it seems like there were parties that decided to just leave grapes on the vine. even in internal vineyards for companies that produce their own wine rather than turn it into bulk. And Audra, please add anything if you feel. [00:11:43] Audra Cooper: I think from a specific standpoint, you know, that was a great way of answering that. I think one of the things to keep in mind is I, I know that we should definitely be mindful of educating and being informative in a general sense, right? The rule of thumb when you're a grape grower and you're trying to sell fruit is if it is difficult to sell as grapes, It will typically be exponentially more difficult to sell as bulk wine. [00:12:07] And so taking that position as a way of bringing profit back , to your vineyard, nine times out of 10 is not going to work out. And that one time is technically a lightning strike and it's extraordinarily difficult to predict that [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: So not a lot of folks wouldn't be wise to do that for a lot of folks. [00:12:23] Audra Cooper: generally. No, I mean, I think most growers, particularly independent growers do not have the wherewithal or the risk adversity to be able to play the bulk market in any significant way. Okay. Mm [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's talk about wineries playing the bulk market. I've got extra stuff. Now, if it's all internal, if I'm growing my own grapes and turning them into my products, it sounds like I would want to maybe leave things on the vine, or just simply not put my investment into producing those wines. Where do bulk wines come from if they're not coming from spec grower spec operations, if they're coming from wineries in particular? [00:13:01] Things that are cut out for quality, things that are cut out for volume [00:13:04] Audra Cooper: Yeah, a multitude of reasons. I mean, the wineries typically use the bulk wine market as what I had alluded to earlier, which is a pressure release valve, right? When they are short or they are long, they're looking to the bulk market, whether that's to buy or sell. Now, that's certainly not every single winery that does that. Particularly some boutique operations, or even a lot of the DTCs would prefer not to play on the bulk wine market, but at times dabble in it. [00:13:27] Another reason to go to the bulk wine market as a buyer is to start a program. If you've gotten, you know, interest from a retailer, for example, for, you know, a control label that's an easy way to research whether or not it is an economic profitable project for your winery, as well as whether or not you can actually find the varietal. And the volume needed for that project. [00:13:49] So there is a multitude of reasons for the bulk wine market to essentially exist and be utilized. But the traditional model is to sell excess on the bulk wine market to someone else who actually needs it. The challenge right now is, we hit about 29 million gallons of actively listed bulk wine for California back in April or June, and that number really didn't decrease until recently. It's the highest inventory that we'd ever seen going into harvest, and when we have those dynamics, that bulk wine market's utilization becomes a little bit, shall I say, sludgy, in the sense of, Most everyone's trying to sell they're not trying to buy. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you have anything to add? [00:14:30] Eddie Urman: no, I think Audra summed it up pretty good. I mean, you asked, how does it end up on the bulk market? I don't think at this point, there's a ton of players that are planning to put it on the bulk market per Audra's point, but wineries are in their best faith trying to secure the amount of fruit they need to then make wine. That they have a home for IE sale, you know, some sort of sales, but as we've seen contraction in sales, unfortunately for some parties, they're forced to make decisions to put it on the bulk market. That'd be correct. Audra. [00:14:59] Audra Cooper: be a correct way of saying it. And also to have to remember, we're essentially making wine for the future when we're harvesting fruit, right and putting it in tank. And so it's really difficult to predict exactly how much 2024 someone's actually going to be able to put out on the shelf and ship. So I think that's the other element to is, by their model , what they purchased and what they received now, of course, 24 is going to be a poor example of that with how light the crop was, but in general, they're buying for what they predict to be their demand and needs [00:15:30] and in all reality, when it's bottled. Packaged and shipped out, those numbers may look dramatically different. Hence the reason why it's going to end up on the bulk market. If it in fact is already in excess. There are some negotiants that may actually in some years where they think the market's pretty good and they can be profitable, we'll go out and spec, but that kind of business model is few and far between compared to say 15 years ago, [00:15:54] Craig Macmillan: Interesting and that kind of leads us to where we are now. You've already touched on it a little bit. We just finished, this is November of 2024, we're just wrapping up the harvest in California. Obviously it's a crystal ball thing, but basically, at the moment, how are we looking? It sounds like we had a light harvest. I'm going to ask you about that. A light harvest. And it sounds like that was pretty much true throughout the coast of California. Is that right? [00:16:20] Audra Cooper: generally, yes, there were regions and AVAs that did better than others. For example, parts of the North Coast with the exception of Sonoma and Napa, so Mendocino Lake and Sassoon, they were not as light as, say, Paso Robles on Paso Robles Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc, but they were still below expectations in most cases. There's just certain areas that were impacted further. far more and may actually be at historical low yields. And I'll let Eddie touch upon kind of his experience specifically in Paso, because I think it's one of the more impacted regions in California. [00:16:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Eddie. [00:16:56] Eddie Urman: Yeah. I think kind of extrapolate on what Audra was speaking to. Paso Robles was exceptionally light last year. I think, you know, our numbers are fluctuating and we'll, we'll see what was actually processed, but potentially 50 percent down from the five year average on Paso cab. And potentially one of the lightest crops we've seen in, potentially 20 years, or at least for sure in my career. Luckily 2024 for Paso was light. And because of that, there were people trying to secure extra cab and South Blanc towards the end of harvest. Unfortunately to, to Audra's point, the rest of the state wasn't as light in other areas. It's going to be pretty interesting to see how it all unfolds because it's probably more regional. [00:17:39] Craig Macmillan: And so we're saying fortunately light because the longterm impact would be that we will have less wine going into an already crowded marketplace. [00:17:50] Eddie Urman: But we also came off 2023, which was probably historically one of the largest crops we've ever seen in the state. So if we would have had a crop like that back to back, that would have been devastating. [00:18:01] Audra Cooper: Yeah, man, that's, that's so very true. And I think it's really important too, to hit upon, you know, the late season purchasing and the run that we saw on grapes. specifically in Paso for Cabernet and to some degree Sauvignon Blanc as well. But I'm going to really kind of lean towards Cab and even some of the red blenders. A lot of that was replacement demand. So it was demand that had been met by a current contract, but because the crop was so extraordinarily light, It had to be made up for somewhere. So there was a need for the fruit that was contracted, but if we didn't have that dynamic with available grapes, we probably would have had grapes left on the vine. [00:18:38] And we did to some degree, but just far less than what was predicted in 2024. [00:18:44] Craig Macmillan: This reminds me also of the, the concept of volatility. How volatile is the bulk wine grape grape market? We talked about these long time frames, which means your price changes you would think would be slow. Is, is there a lot of jumping around just in the course of a calendar year? [00:18:59] Audra Cooper: Yes and no. It really depends on the year. I would certainly say that in very light years we will see more volatility on price. Then in years where it's way oversupplied, or we have a large crop that creates more stability, good or bad, with a heavier crop. But it's not as volatile as maybe some other markets that people are trying to, you know, short on, for example, with the Wall Street guys. It's not quite like that either. So there is a little bit more stability built into it. [00:19:27] I think the challenge Happens often is a lot of people build their business models off of the district averages and the district averages don't show as much volatility as the, you know, yearly spot market does. [00:19:40] And unfortunately, it used to be a rule of thumb that about 10 percent of California supply was on the spot market every single year. Now I think that's closer to probably 30 something percent. I mean, it's really jumped in the last few years. [00:19:54] We have to remember our industry has been in a really interesting and an unfortunate position of retracting over the last couple of years with consumer demand declining, with the economic impacts with inflation, with lack of, you know, operating loans being readily available like they were. [00:20:10] I mean, things have changed pretty dramatically. I have a strong belief. I won't even say hope because hope's not a strategy. I have a strong belief that, you know, as we go through some of these challenges, We'll essentially build back and we'll get to a healthier position. And I do think that some of the worst things are some of the bigger pain points we either, recently have gone through and are over with or that we're in currently. So I don't think it's going to get much worse, but it remains to be seen. That one's a hard one to kind of figure out. But my, my thought is that with the lighter crop, it's certainly going to help the bulk wine market, not stack up, you know, a large fifth vintage, cause we have currently five vintages stacked. Stacked on top of each other in bulk wine market, which again, is the most amount of vintages I've seen in the 18 years I've been doing this. And that does show, you know, we met with a client yesterday and they said, our industry is sick. And I think that's actually a really great way of putting it. We're we're kind of in a sick position and we just need to figure out how to get to a healthier spot. [00:21:10] Craig Macmillan: five vintages stacked up that, so we're talking, there's like 2019 that are still in the market. Then [00:21:16] Audra Cooper: There is a little tiny bit of 2019, there's a tiny bit of 2020, and then you get into 21, 22, 23, and then the 24s are starting to come on. [00:21:25] Craig Macmillan: is there a home for something that's that old, even [00:21:30] 2020, [00:21:31] Audra Cooper: I mean, 2022 is about the oldest vintage back that I would say, in all likelihood, there's a reasonable wine based home, and even that's starting to get a little bit long in the tooth when we talk about 21 and 2020. Forget about 2019, that should have gone somewhere at some point long ago. Those vintages in all likelihood, again, they're smaller amounts, I think they're less than 100, 000 gallons each. [00:21:57] They're gonna have to go somewhere, whether it's destroyed or they go to DM. [00:22:01] Craig Macmillan: right? What's DM. [00:22:03] Audra Cooper: Distilled materials. [00:22:04] Craig Macmillan: There we go. Perfect. [00:22:06] Eddie, if you were advising a grape growing, what is your view? Looking ahead, what's your crystal ball say as far as removals, planting, varietal changes, clone changes, rootstock changes, anything like that? [00:22:20] Eddie Urman: Yeah, well we get that question a lot and it's pretty difficult to answer. At this point, you know, growers should really be considering which blocks they should be farming. They should be strongly considering pushing out blocks that are older or have no chance at receiving a price sustainably farm it. economically. And as far as planting goes right now, it's all over the board. It depends on the region, you know, where you're at within the central coast. That's which is my region specifically. And even then it's pretty hard to justify to somebody right now. It's a good time to plant. [00:22:56] That's [00:22:57] Craig Macmillan: that does make sense, I am thinking about other interviews that I've done with, with plant, plant pathology. Where it seems like everything is going to someplace bad in a hand basket because vines are dying. Do I replant that? You would think that diseases, like trunk disease, for instance, would alleviate some of this. [00:23:15] Vines would need to come out of production. Do you see that kind of thing happening? Do you think people are picking not just older, but maybe damaged or diseased or infested vineyards, taking those out of production and then not replanting those? [00:23:27] Eddie Urman: Yeah, they definitely are. The, difficult thing with vineyards compared to certain other crops is the fixed costs that go into installing a vineyard, which has gone up drastically in the last 15 years. So it's really difficult for a grower to push a vineyard you know, spend $2,000 an acre to push a vineyard or whatever it may be, and then decide, okay, we're just going to replant next year and spend 45, 000 or 40, 000. On reinstalling a vineyard. It's, it's a lot of money. Especially if it's on spec and, and honestly, sometimes it can't even get financing to do it. [00:23:59] So unfortunately, a lot of these players will need to say, we'll try to stick it out and say, okay, what if we just weather the storm one more year, the eternal optimist, the eternal optimist. View. I think we're finally starting to see that some people are, are making some tough decisions and it's, it's sad to see, but it's what needs to happen as far as pushing some of these vineyards that are diseased or too old to be productive. [00:24:20] Audra Cooper: I think he did a, you know, a service to everyone by talking about that, because the older plantings for as long as people had to hold on to them you know, we, talk a lot about, you know, oh, the 1990s plantings and they need to go away. Well, that's really easy to say it's a little more difficult to do, particularly again, if you're an independent grower. Relatively small, maybe your 20 acres, you know, the likelihood of you being able to get a planting contract and or getting financing to redevelop is slim to none. So you're going to hold on as long as you can. And that really has kind of added to the bottom line of supply as well. We have a lot of acreage that is finally starting to get removed that should have been removed years ago. [00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: And again, thinking in like classical high school economic terms It seems like grape prices have been going up, at least on Paso and some of those kind of more luxury areas. Is that true? Or is there a real cap on price compared to what it could have been? Or are we in decline? What, what's, what's happening right now? [00:25:24] Ha [00:25:24] Audra Cooper: I think that's actually a very loaded question in some respects because [00:25:30] Craig Macmillan: yeah, it [00:25:31] Audra Cooper: It's highly dependent on what we're talking about, right? If we're talking about Westside and we're talking about some of the Rhone Whites that are now in vogue, yeah, their pricing has started to increase even in spite of the market, right? Because they are in demand, but they're more of a niche market as well. They're not part of the macro market. Whereas you look at Paso Cab, The district average was starting to kind of climb back up again, but if you look at the spot market, it has declined dramatically over the last two years. And I think we're in our third decline now, as far as per year per vintage you look at, for example, Monterey County, Pinot, and I think you can easily make the argument prices dramatically decreased over the last several years. You know, it had a great run post sideways and unfortunately we way over planted and we planted it in a time where there was a lot of virus material that unfortunately got put into the ground and then we oversaturated the market on the shelves as well from a national distribution standpoint, if you want to talk about maybe some cool climate, Sarah, yeah, pricing continues to go up, but they're again, very nichey. So I guess the long winded thing is macro sense. Prices have been on the decline. Niche, it depends on what it is and where it is. [00:26:46] Craig Macmillan: And I, I got this from you, Audra, from another interview you did. What is the difference between a light harvest and a short harvest? And the reason I ask this is because it, on the wine side, talking to people, it's like, Oh, it's going to be a short harvest, coming up short. As in, I don't have enough. [00:27:02] I'm coming up short. It's like, I don't have dollar bills in my pocket. That's totally different than having not a lot of grapes. [00:27:09] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, from a market perspective in which we operate, those two words have very different definitions. Light to me is regarding your yield per acre, your production. It's a light year. We're below average thresholds. Short on the other hand is more of an economic demand supply term that we utilize when The actual crop being delivered falls short of the actual demand. And that's a little bit tricky this year because a lot of people were saying the crop is short. Well, it was in only some cases. For example, Sauvignon Blanc, specifically in Paso, it was short. There's, I don't think there's really any arguing that. Paso Cab, I think it depends on what winery and which grower you are. There were growers who were sold out and fully contracted that were not able to meet their contracts and their wineries would have taken every single time they could have delivered. That's a short situation. Now, on the other hand, I've got some other stuff that say is like a 1997 planting that, you know, didn't have a whole lot of demand. They were light in their crop yield, but they were not short in their supply. [00:28:18] Craig Macmillan: What are things that growers in particular can do to set themselves apart in the marketplace? You mentioned niche, we've mentioned county average pricing, wherever you would like to be selling their grapes for more than that. And they do. What are things that people can do to kind of set themselves apart? Eddie. [00:28:35] Eddie Urman: That's a great question. It's a very difficult question. I think I'll start on the other end of the spectrum. You hear somewhat frequently people talk about minimal farming, or can they do just to get you by this year, get you into the next year what we've discussed with multiple people and what my belief is, unfortunately, if you decide to minimally farm or do the absolute bare minimum, you're boxing yourself into a area of the market. Where there's no chance you're gonna get a price that's really gonna even break even. I think most parties would agree to that. The best thing for our industry, and specifically Paso Robles, the Central Coast, is we need to continue to deliver quality products that, you know, a winery can make into good wine and sell at a good price. Right. So we need to continue to improve on our farming techniques, improve on our utilization of the resources we have to provide that product and reach a sustainable point of price to where vineyards can sustain, growers can continue to stay in business, and wineries can then take that product and sell it in a bottle profitably at a store or restaurant or whatever it may be. [00:29:45] So I kind of danced around your question, but my personal opinion is, if you want to be in this business and you want to create a product, you know, create a grape that people want to buy, you have to put the money into it to farm it. It sounds easy to say it's extremely difficult for the people making these decisions right now. [00:30:03] Craig Macmillan: You may have to spend a little money. [00:30:05] Audra Cooper: you definitely do. I mean, I think, Anytime that you slow down on what you spend, unfortunately you start to decrease your marketability. And that is so difficult in years like this, where as a broker, you watch someone cut their budget and their spending in half and you immediately notice, I can't sell your fruit. And that's a difficult thing because you can't necessarily guarantee that you can sell their fruit either. So how do you justify someone spending, you know, their normal budget? [00:30:37] One of the things that growers specifically can do is they can identify their value proposition. And for many, it's going to be unique, and some of them are going to have similarities. Part of that is, and I'm probably going to get myself in trouble a little bit here, the old kind of lead with, you know, I've gotten these gold medals for the wine that I produced off of my vineyard at these, you know, county fairs or this competition. Unfortunately, they just don't count anymore with marketing winemakers that are, you know, new on the scene, or perhaps with a new corporation, or, Somebody who's been through kind of the ropes, these things don't have any weight anymore. [00:31:17] But what does have weight is understanding what your buyer's needs are and how your vineyard actually fits those needs. So really understanding, where you fit into the market. Not everyone's going to have the best grapes in the region. And that's okay because maybe that is already oversaturated. [00:31:34] Maybe you need to hit a middle tier winery that's selling at 15. 99 and you know that you can be sustainable at $1,500 because this is your budget XYZ and it fits. You know, you don't necessarily have to be the 3, 000 or 4, 000 guy on the west side in Adelaide or Willow Creek. That's not going to be for everybody. [00:31:54] So really finding your position is really important and also what you provide to that buyer. And it's really simple, and I know it's actually probably very elementary to say, but what can you do to help make the people you work with at that winery make them look good? Because they'll also do that for you in return. [00:32:11] Craig Macmillan: and specifically in your experience, especially to start with you Eddie are there particular practices management styles, management philosophies that seem to be attractive to wineries that they're more likely to maybe buy from that grower? [00:32:25] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I'll just probably give a little more detail here, but my experience comes mostly from larger scale farming. At the end of the day, I think the more you put into farming it appropriately, IE you know, good pruning techniques good cultural practices, whether they be shoot thinning leafing, depending on your trellis style wire moves second crop drop or, or green drop. Those are all things that, you know, wineries are going to think are a positive thing. [00:32:54] Now, is it going to match every single program to Audra's point? And you don't always have to be the person selling $3,000 per ton cabernet. Some people can make just fine in those middle tiers. [00:33:03] And we need those people too, because there's bottles that need to go on the shelves there. So if you can have an open, reasonable discussion with your winery and what their expectations are and what you can actually provide at a certain price point and yield I think that's really important place to start. [00:33:18] Craig Macmillan: Audra? [00:33:18] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I think there's a couple things. Again, this is very elementary, but say what you do and do what you say. Following through with your word and what your plan is, is very, very important and being very consistent with your practices and the end product that you try to provide. I mean, consistency in agriculture, particularly in growing wine grapes, is very difficult, but those who achieve it are the ones that typically don't have as much volatility in their ability to sell fruit. on, you know, a term contract, typically. [00:33:46] I think the other thing, too, keeping in mind is managing personalities, too, and understanding, you know, who's the right fit for each other. I think that's really important, I think, from a practice's standpoint and I think this is becoming more and more commonly acceptable, but shoot thinning, when I first arrived in Paso even Monterey County, for that matter, is, was not very common. [00:34:10] It's becoming more and more common, and I think it's actually very important. And Eddie has kind of reaffirmed and reassured me since he started with Turrentine Brokerage, and I kind of failed to remember my basics. Pruning is everything. And I think sometimes often more than not, you know, pruning actually kind of gets It's in my mind kind of degraded and, you know, people try to make up for things later on and we start with the right foundation, usually have some consistency. [00:34:36] Craig Macmillan: So that's somewhere you may want to pay more attention and spend some more of your money there than in some other things. [00:34:42] Audra Cooper: Well, and your plan starts there, right? [00:34:43] So whatever you start with at pruning, that's your beginning plan. In all likelihood, you need to write that out. [00:34:49] Eddie Urman: , be intentional with your pruning plan. From the time you start the season, you should have a plan. Okay. This is what we're going to target this year and you got to stick to it. . [00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: What about, , certifications? There was a time not that long ago when going for whether it's SIP or organic we've got regenerative now a lot of folks looked at that and said, hey, this is going to help set me apart. This is going to help and with buyers, buyers are going to be interested in wanting these types of products. [00:35:18] Have you seen that take place? [00:35:20] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I have a really, really strong opinion on sustainable certification. And I'm sure a lot of our clientele is probably tired of me hitting this drum too loudly, but the reality is at one point, sustainable certification, regardless of which it is. Was a nice to have and the occasional request now. It's a it's a need to have must have [00:35:39] if you are not sustainably certified you are cutting your marketability I wouldn't say in half but pretty close now a lot of our buyers are requiring it and even if they don't require it suddenly asking at the end of harvest Oh, did they have a certification? and then the answer is no well now you may be on the chopping block of we may not re sign that fruit because Our retailers are asking us, what are we doing in regards to, you know, our kind of our social impacts in our economic and our environmental impacts? And it may not be on the bottle per se, but it's in the conversation. And so to be able to provide that information to the end user is really important [00:36:19] when it comes to the other certifications. Certainly organic is trending. It is trended off and on in our industry. Unfortunately, we don't see a big premium being paid for, for grapes that are organically certified with some exceptions. [00:36:33] And so that's really hard, I think, from an industry to, to really grow in that manner. Regenerative is certainly another trend. I think we're on the beginning cusp of it, so I don't see it as, you know, impactful as sustainably certified on macro level. As I do sustainable. So it'll be interesting to see where that goes. [00:36:53] I think organic those probably going to trend a little bit more in 26 and 27 just based on the players that are currently asking about it. [00:37:01] Craig Macmillan: What do you have to add, Eddie? [00:37:02] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I think Audra's absolutely right. We are in a state of excess or oversupply. So wineries are more intensely looking at. How can we differentiate one vineyard or one grower versus the next? And sustainability comes up in most conversations regarding that. So it's turning more from an option to more of a necessity. [00:37:24] I think one thing that there's a trend for unfortunately too, or it can be unfortunately for some people, is they're herbicide free. So there are some people that are interested in herbicide free. It's not a certification, [00:37:34] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, just simply as a practice. Yeah, I, agree with you. I'm hearing more and more about that all the time. And that's a, that's a big shift for a lot of growers. That's a very costly change to make. But you're absolutely right. That is a topic of conversation. That is definitely something that people are talking about in, in the broader world. There's a lot of news attention to that, especially around places like France and stuff, or that's going to be kind of a requirement probably in the future. [00:38:01] Audra Cooper: I just want to add really quick. One of the challenges that we see is Oftentimes wineries will come to the market requesting these differentiation points, right, in regards to practices, and it's really difficult because when they come to the market, a lot of these processes and procedures needed to have already been put into place, right? They would have already had to be intended or implemented in the field. And so we're, again, almost a bridge behind in regards to what demand currently is and, and this particular trend. Especially when we talk about organic herbicide free. These are very intentional, time intensive planning processes that we've got to get ahead of. [00:38:43] And I don't have a great answer because the market doesn't support a higher price per ton right now. And the reality is there are capital intensive changes in farming, but we're going to need to find a solution here soon because I do see this as a challenge in the market moving forward. [00:38:59] Craig Macmillan: and I think there's some research that kind of bears that out even at the consumer level where if I'm presented with two products that are the same price and one has a desirable quality, whether it's a practice or certification or something like that, you would say, you know, Which one would you like? [00:39:14] You say, well, I want the sustainable one. And then you ask the consumer, well, how much would you pay? And there's very little willingness to pay difference in some of these studies. In others, they show a meaningful amount, but a lot of them, a lot of the studies don't. And so I think we're kind of moving towards a standard operating procedure that's gonna be around these things and that's gonna raise costs and that's gonna be a real financial challenge for people, I agree. [00:39:38] Eddie, what is one thing you would tell growers around this topic of the market and everything else? [00:39:43] Eddie Urman: I think it was , the statement I made earlier is be intentional, like have a plan going into this year. We farmers tend to be optimistic and we tend to just think, okay, well, this year it's going to turn, you know, we've had a couple of bad years. It's going to get better this year. There's no guarantee that's going to take place this year. And we'd love to sit here and say it will. So make sure you have a plan that makes sense. And has a reasonable chance at having a positive outcome. If it's farming your 30 year old vineyard, 35 year old vineyard, that's for sure, only going to get three tons an acre or less on a best case scenario, no weather influences, no outside factors, no heat spells, and it's going to cost you 5, 000 an acre to farm it. You're not going to make your money back in most instances, unfortunately, not even break even. [00:40:29] Craig Macmillan: Audra, what is one thing you would tell growers? [00:40:31] Audra Cooper: That's a good question. And I think it's highly dependent on the grower and the clientele and where they are and what they have. I think that planning for your future is critical right now, not taking it year by year. And making changes in advance of needing to make changes is a huge one. Honestly, it's really getting sharp with your business pencil and in your business intention, your business plan. It's not just farming right now. I think you have to plan on how do you survive the current marketplace and how do you get to the other side? And unfortunately, it's not a cookie cutter plan for everyone. It's very customized and it's very specific. [00:41:11] And the other thing that I mentioned earlier, really understanding your value proposition in the market. That is critical because I can't tell you the number of times I've had people And very wonderful, good growers who are very intelligent, but they were very misguided by whether it was, you know, a real estate agent or a consultant or just people surrounding who also had good intentions, but they weren't knowledgeable about the marketplace. And, you know, those growers either planted wrong, entered the market wrong, had to have high expectations built into their budget on the price per ton long term, all these things matter. And all these things really matter for success. [00:41:48] Craig Macmillan: Where can people find out more about you two? Audra. [00:41:51] Audra Cooper: Yeah you can go to our website, www. TurrentineBrokerage. You can of course call myself or Eddie or email us. You'll often see us up on, you know, a stage or in a room speaking on behalf of the marketplace. I've got something coming up soon in February as well. Yeah, there's, there's a multitude of ways of getting a hold of us. [00:42:10] Probably our website's the easiest because it has all the information. [00:42:13] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Well, thank you both for being on the podcast. Really interesting conversation. lot to think about. A lot to think about. Intentional farming, I think that's one of the key things we're taking away here is what's your intention. And that's not always such an easy thing to decide upon. You know, it's tough. [00:42:31] Audra Cooper: It is tough. We thank you and we appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking with you as well. [00:42:36] Eddie Urman: yeah, thank you very much, Craig. [00:42:37] Craig Macmillan: You bet. So our guest today, Audra Cooper, she is director of grape brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is central coast grape broker for Turentine brokerage. Thank you both for coming out and to our listeners, keep downloading those episodes. There's lots of great information there. Check the show page or there's lots of resources and look for other podcasts. [00:42:55] We have tons and tons of episodes on all kinds of topics and please keep coming back and thank you. [00:43:01] Audra Cooper: Thank you. [00:43:02] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turrentine brokerage crush reports, and sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 185, why you need to talk about sustainability. And 221 future proof your wine business with Omnichannel communication. [00:43:27] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam.org. [00:43:40] Until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Welcome back to another episode of Beats Vines & Life! I'm your host, MJ Towler, and today, we have a fascinating guest joining us: the acclaimed wine critic and editor at Vinous, Eric Guido. Eric is not just a wine connoisseur but also a man of many talents with a rich background in music and an active lifestyle. Throughout this episode, we delve into Eric's candid perspectives on the wine industry, where he emphasizes the importance of honesty in writing and critiques the often superficial trends on social media.Eric's love for wine goes beyond just tasting; he shares his journey from his early encounters with wine to memorable experiences like savoring a 1990 CInIello Barolo, which deepened his appreciation for the intricacies of wine. You'll also hear about the dynamic changes in wine regions and the need for consumers to explore beyond the popular labels to discover hidden gems, especially in regions like Barolo and Paso Robles.But that's not all—Eric's life is a blend of passions. He talks about his days as a goth music enthusiast, his transition to culinary arts, and how his martial arts training shaped his approach to life. We'll touch on his unique experiences with music production and promotion in New York City's vibrant club scene and explore his transformative journey from the military to becoming a respected figure in the wine world.So, tune in as we unpack these captivating stories with Eric Guido and gain insights into the essence of wine, music, and life. Don't forget to check the show notes for details on the wines discussed, Instagram links, and where you can follow Eric's extraordinary work. Let's get started!---A Massive THANK YOU to ERIC GUIDO and MIKHAIL LIPYANSKIY!!! For more information about Vinous Media click the link!!Follow Eric on IG!Follow Vinous on IG!Follow Lipyanskiy Photo on IG!____________________________________________________________Until next time, cheers to the mavericks, philosophers, deep thinkers, and wine drinkers! Subscribe and give Beats Vines and Life a five-star review on whichever platform you listen to.For insider info from MJ and exclusive content from the show, sign up at blackwineguy.comFollow MJ @blackwineguyFollow Beats Vines and Life @beatsvinesandlife Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Since we are nearing the end of 2024, this episode is a light-hearted conversation between four viticulture friends. As some of you may know, I started my career in viticulture in 1999. Three of my friends also began their grape growing journey that same year: Erin Amaral, Paul Crout, and Randy Heinzen. In this episode, I'm joined by Erin, Paul, and Randy for a conversation about our experiences in the vineyard industry over the past 25 years. Listen in to this fun episode as we talk about how the industry has grown and changed and share our favorite stories over the last two and a half decades. In this episode, you will hear: What the viticulture industry used to be like back in 1999 What has changed in the past 25 years Technological advancements and research improvements What we can expect for the future of viticulture Follow and Review: We'd love for you to follow us if you haven't yet. Click the ‘+ Follow' button in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second, and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Resources: Register for Fritz's FREE virtual live learning event, Breaking Bad Pruning Habits on January 8th at 5 pm CST: https://www.virtualviticultureacademy.com/breakingbad. If you have questions about today's episode or ideas for future episodes, go to VineyardUndergroundPodcast.com and click the Ask Fritz button.  Today's Guests: Erin Amaral is a vineyard manager for Pacific Coast Farming in San Luis Obispo, California and a licensed Pest Control Advisor. Connect with Erin at Pacific Coast Farming or via email at erin@pacificcoastfarming.com.  Paul Crout is a Pest Control Advisor and Certified Crop Advisor, and one of the foremost experts on wine grape nutrition and spray adjuvants. He currently works as an Agronomist with Helena Agri-Enterprises in California. Connect with Paul on LinkedIn or via email at winepca@gmail.com.  Randy Heinzen is a global vineyard management expert who has worked with some of the world's most sought-after vineyards. He is the owner and president of Vineyard Professional Services (VPS) in Paso Robles, CA. VPS currently manages over 4,000 acres across three counties along CA's Central Coast. Connect with Randy at Vineyard Professional Services.com or via email at rheinzen@vineyardpro.com. Episode Sponsor: Thank you to our friends over at SensorInsight for sponsoring today's episode. SensorInsight is a leader in vineyard soil moisture and weather monitoring.  SensorInsight designs state-of-the-art, remote satellite monitoring of soil moisture and weather, bringing actionable information for your vineyard operations straight to your phone, with real-time data so you can best decide when to turn on your irrigation, how long to run the system, and learn how the dynamics of soil moisture can change over a given season. Visit them today at https://sensorinsight.io. And don't forget to mention the code Underground to receive a discount on your SensorInsight solution. Episode Credits If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com. Let them know we sent you.

It's Monday, Let's raise a glass to the beginning of another week. It's time to unscrew, uncork or saber a bottle and let's begin Exploring the Wine Glass!  Today, we're diving into a story as rich as the wines it produces. From the halls of hospitals to the vineyard rows, my guest has traded her stethoscope for pruning shears and embarked on a journey of blending passion, family, and the art of winemaking. Joining me is Serena Friedman of Four Sisters Winery, nestled in the east side of Paso Robles. Serena and her family's inspiring leap from the medical field to the wine industry is a tale of passion, creativity, and connection. We'll discuss what it takes to navigate this career shift, how they're making their mark in Paso's vibrant wine scene, and, of course, the incredible wines they craft. While you are listening, it would be greatly appreciated if you could take one minute to subscribe, rate and review. It takes only a few seconds of your time but means so much to the show.  Also, please be sure to check the box for automatic downloads so that new episodes of Exploring the Wine Glass show up in your “next up feed.” The next best way to support Exploring the Wine Glass is to tell your friends. If you enjoy the podcast, your wine loving friends will too. Follow me on all the socials and finally, don't forget to head to the website, Exploring the Wine Glass.com to read the blog, and sign up for the newsletter to keep up with all the happenings.  Slainte!    Find out more about Four Sisters Ranch and Winery here Music: WINE by Kēvens Official Video Follow me on Instagram!   Follow me on Twitter! Subscribe to my YouTube channel SIGN UP FOR EXPLORING THE WINE GLASS NEWSLETTER SUBSCRIBE ON iTUNES STITCHER | iTUNES | YOUTUBE | SPOTIFY | PODBEAN | AUDIBLE | BOOMPLAY Even ask your smart speaker to play Exploring the Wine Glass GIVE US A RATING AND REVIEW Thoughts or comments? Contact Lori at exploringthewineglass@gmail.com. Please support our sponsors Dracaena Wines - Our Wines + Your Moments + Great Memories Use code 'Explore' at checkout to receive 10% off your first order GET SPECIAL OFFERS FOR DRACAENA WINES

This episode features Patrick Brooks of Tin City Distillery. Tin City Distillery, In Pasa Robles, CA, is "in the heart of a drinking town with a farming problem". After you make world class wine you distill it into brandy. The idea for the distillery came way too late at night while drinking wine. They decided that instead of dumping all of the grape juice down the drain they were going to create brandy from it. The next step was create their own brand and their own distillery. Their still originally came from a 55 gallon Fuji film canister. Today their on their forth still iteration a 375 gallon copper pot still. What you will discover ,when you visit, is a plethora of craft and artisan spirits made collaboratively in and around Tin City. 3064 Limestone Way, Paso Robles, CA 93446 - (805) 286-4453 www.TinCityDistillery.com - Instagram Highlights From our Discussion: Turtle Rock Vineyards Saxum Vineyards George Washington's Mount Vernon Distillery Tin City Documentary BarrelHouse Brewing Co. Firestone Walker Brewing Company Greenspot Whiskey Quick and Dirty History

The Vikings keep rolling and win their White Out game on Monday night. And another glorious road trip for Craigers up the California Coast including stops in Los Olivos, Paso Robles, Carmel and Montecito. Plus a visit to one of John Steinbeck's old haunts - the Forge in the Forest in Carmel. Added bonus: Kilby keeps giving with 5 movies you can watch over and over and never get bored. Let's go. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Peter Danzig hears a disturbing banging sound while flying his Bonanza A36 near Paso Robles, CA, and decides to make a precautionary landing at a small private airport. After landing, he must contend with less than ideal conditions in which to depart again.

Seth and Josh are joined by another Josh on the pod this week…Josh Brolin! He talks all about growing up in Paso Robles, CA and living out his teen years in Santa Barbara, surprise trips with his mom, backpacking with his son, his surfing group, AKA the "Cito Rats,” his love for California, his new memoir, “From Under the Truck,” and so much more!   Follow Family Trips on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok! Head over to our YouTube channel and hit subscribe so you never miss a new video episode! Supports our sponsors:NissanSo thanks again to Nissan for sponsoring this episode of Family Trips. Adventure calls in the first-ever Nissan Rogue Rock Creek. Learn more at NissanUSA.com AirbnbThanks to Airbnb for their support of Family Trips.  Visit Airbnb.com today and book a guest favorite.  These are the most beloved homes on Airbnb. Aura FramesSave on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35-off Aura's best-selling Carver Mat frames by using promo code TRIPS at checkout. Delete MeToday get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to join deleteme.com/TRIPS and use promo code TRIPS at checkout. Rocket MoneyStop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/trips #familytrips #sethmeyers #joshmeyers #joshbrolin Executive Producers: Rob Holysz & Jeph Porter Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Coordinating Producer: Derek Johnson Mix & Master: Josh Windisch Episode Artwork: Analise Jorgensen

Barrel-aging is nothing new for Firestone Walker's (https://www.firestonewalker.com) Matt Brynildson. He got his first exposure to the process while working for barrel-aging pioneer Goose Island in Chicago, and for the better part of two decades has been exploring the impact of wood, aging, and blending in the development of beer flavor at Firestone Walker. A post-pandemic initiative at the Paso Robles brewery, the Brewmaster's Collective (https://www.firestonewalker.com/brewmasters-collective/), has created new occasions to explore processes and approaches through collaborations with a range of brewer friends, and in this episode Brynildson is joined by two collaborators—Henok Fentie of Stockholm, Sweden's Omnipollo (https://www.fraugruber-craftbrewing.com), and Enzo Frauenschuh of Gundelfingen, Germany's FrauGruber (https://www.fraugruber-craftbrewing.com). Together, they take a look at the similarities and differences in barrel-aged stout brewing in the United States and Europe. Along the way, they discuss: building recipes that can support strong flavors finding the balance between sweetness and drinkability artful flavor composition maintaining some semblance of house character through collaborations expressing barrel notes cleanly through lean and well-attenuated beers temperature impact on barrel expression varying ingredients based on the continent developing flavorful bases both through English malts and with blends of Pilsner and Munich malts managing barrel-entry gravity for long term success planning for adjuncts in recipe design adjunct addition processes and extraction efficiency And more. Note: Firestone Walker is a media partner of Craft Beer & Brewing This episode is brought to you by: G&D Chillers (https://gdchillers.com): At G&D Chillers they always strive to Build Great Chillers. Partner with them as you Build Great Beer. Choose G&D Chillers on your next Expansion or Brewery start up and receive 1 free year of Remote control and Monitoring of your new G&D Chiller! ProBrew (https://www.probrew.com) “ProBrew is excited to now offer 2-4 week lead times on all in-stock ProFill Rotary Can Filler and Seamers. This special lead time is only while supplies last, so send us an email at contactus@probrew.com or call us at 262-278-4945. ProBrew, Brew YOUR Beer.” Old Orchard (https://www.oldorchard.com/brewer): Berry Blend, Blood Orange, Lemonade, and Tart Cherry are the latest additions to our lineup of flavored craft juice concentrate blends. To learn more and request your free samples, head over to oldorchard.com/brewer (https://www.oldorchard.com/brewer) Omega Yeast (https://omegayeast.com): Experience distinct transparency and juiciness with Omega Yeast's DayBreak-V. We've genetically eliminated haze in the popular British-V strain, allowing you to preserve the fruit-boosting prowess while achieving crystal clarity. Learn more at info@omegayeast.com. Five Star Chemical (https://fivestarchemicals.com) Our cleaning solutions are specifically formulated to meet the unique needs of breweries, ensuring that your equipment stays clean and free of harmful bacteria and contaminants. From cleaning fermenters to kegs, we have a solution for every step of the brewing process. RSS Maclin (https://RSSMACLIN.com) provides the training and resources breweries of all sizes need to ensure the exceptional quality of your product remains the same from beginning to end. For more information, visit RSSMACLIN.com or email Service@rssmaclin.com Indie Hops (https://indiehops.com) breeds new hop varieties to help brewers captivate beer lovers. Brewers worldwide trust Indie's unique varieties — Strata, Lórien, Luminosa, Meridian and Audacia — to modernize, brighten and diversify their beer lineup. Visit indiehops.com/podcast to discover what's new in hop flavors. Berkeley Yeast (https://berkeleyyeast.com). Superbloom strains make classic hops flavor; Fresh strains keep diacetyl low even with large hop additions; Tropics strains make a tropical bouquet reminiscent of the finest southern hemisphere hops. Mention this podcast for 20% off your first order.

Graham travels to California for a sitdown with one of the most successful actors of the 21st century, Josh Brolin. Part of massive franchises like The Avengers and Dune, Brolin remembers the struggles of making it in Hollywood before his breakout role in No Country for Old Men. He shares stories from the set, like almost getting in a fight with Denzel Washington and how Quentin Tarantino helped him with an audition. The son of actor James Brolin, Josh recalls an interesting upbringing in Paso Robles, CA where he grew up around wild animals that his mother fostered. Brolin also talks about his sobriety and how it changed his relationship with his children.