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Anytime there is any sort of issue in your business that's not quite going the way it should, don't sabotage your sales success. Instead, just ask yourself, is this because the process that I have in place is not working? Or is it because the person who is supposed to be following the process just didn't do it? David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and will be discussing How Businesses Sabotage their Sales. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Good to see you, David. How you been? David: Been doing great. It's good to see you too. Kevin: Yeah, for sure. I'm excited to talk about this. So, sabotaging sales, what do you mean by that, when you say businesses are sabotaging their sales? David: You know, I had some experiences recently and I'm like, did they intend to do this? Is this what they were trying to do? Did they set out to do this when they were doing it. One of the experiences I had recently was I was going to buy a pair of earbuds, right? And there's a particular brand of earbuds that I like. It's not the ones that would normally leap to mind. It's another one. But a good brand, they work really well. And I got a text from them saying that they were having a sale. And I was like, okay, cool. Maybe I'll buy an extra pair of earbuds even though I don't need them. And so in the link that they sent me, they said, click through and you get 35% off. I'm like, cool. So I click through the link and it takes me to a picture of what I think are the earbuds that they're selling, and it says 20% off, with a certain promo code. And I'm like, okay, well I'm looking for the 35% off, but there was a different promo code in the text, so I'm like, okay, I'll just plug the correct promo code and it'll work. Right? So finally figured out how to do that. No, it said this is not applicable to this particular product. So I'm like, okay. But they had some sort of chat person or chat being or chat AI, I don't know what it was. Kevin: Chat AI agent. Yeah. David: Yeah. Something not quite what I thought it might be, but. I thought, okay, well I'll ask the question. And none of the answers that I got were relevant to what I was asking. And I was like, I'm here. I've got my wallet open. Kevin: I'm ready to buy! David: I want to buy exactly the thing that you sent me a text to, and you're making it hard. Why are you making it so hard? Kevin: Yeah. David: And it replied quickly to a lot of questions and then, it was just like ghosting. It's like, okay, I didn't hear anything back. So I'm like, I'm like, are you AI? And I didn't get an answer. I thought if it was AI, it would at least tell me it was AI. So, I didn't get to order that day. The next day I tried again. I actually reached out to their customer support, had another non-experience there. But eventually I was able to figure out that apparently there were two sets of this earbud in a similar color, and the link took you to the wrong one and applied the wrong link. And so that's why it was saying it was wrong. And I didn't care about the color. I was like, I wouldn't have normally bought this color, but it was 35% off, so I was like... Kevin: Yeah, yeah, whatever. David: Right. Kevin: Earbuds. David: Anyway, long story short is what should have taken three to five minutes and been an exceptional experience took a whole lot longer and diminished my passion for this particular product. So I thought, you know, there are a lot of businesses that do this sort of thing, and the words that leap to my mind is that they're sabotaging their own sales, which is kind of the purpose of this conversation. Not for me to vent, but for us to talk about what businesses can do about it. Kevin: Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest, David. David: Thanks. Kevin: It's probably something you needed to do. David: I feel a lot better. Kevin: Good, good, good. Well,

It's not always easy to get information from clients. If you're in a situation where you have good relationships with your clients, but you're struggling to get the information you need from them, there are very specific things that you can do that will help you to accomplish that a lot faster and a lot more organically. It'll just feel better when you're doing it right, and they'll be a lot more likely to help you with it. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist, and I will be discussing getting information out of clients. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, welcome back to you too. I'm really excited to talk about this because let's be honest, like we're all very conscious of the fact that everyone wants our information, so it's a bit of a struggle sometimes. David: Yeah, it really is. And when we're looking at trying to extract information from clients, sometimes it's like trying to pull teeth. Or trying to get the information that we need to either advance the sale or to be able to get an order completed and that sort of thing. And it can definitely be challenging. Kevin: Yeah, no doubt. How much of it do you think is how people ask for the information? Instead of saying like, give me this. Is it better to kind of think about it in more of a storytelling narrative kind of way to pull things out? David: That's a great question. I think a lot of it depends on your personality and the way that you communicate with people. Many salespeople, many of the best salespeople, I think are natural storytellers. You ask them what time it is and it starts with a story. Right? So... Kevin: Well, it all started back when I was eight. David: Let's talk about time, shall we? Kevin: Yeah. David: Yeah, so I think it can take that form. I think there are also situations, a lot of times, where we know what we need to get from them, and sometimes if we're just going for it all the time, that can come across as a little too pushy in some ways. So I think there's a natural give and take that needs to happen, so that people can feel engaged with us. If they feel engaged in the conversation, if they feel that we're listening to them, paying attention to what they need, and that's woven in with getting the next piece of information that I need without coming across like an interrogator. Like I'm going to shine a light on you. It's like the third degree in the cop movies. Right? If it feels like that, they're gone. But when you're able to just engage them and let them know that you care about getting them a result, then they're a lot more likely to be free with the information. Kevin: Obviously at the front end of a sales cycle, it's more basic information and it keeps going, getting more detailed as things go on. Should people change their approach as they go on from first contacting someone to maybe having a warm or even hot lead? David: Definitely, and I think you raised exactly the right point there, which is that it does generally start out more general and then it gets more and more specific as you're getting down to it. Sometimes salespeople will lead with things like, what's your budget? Right? Which is kind of intrusive, right? Kevin: Yeah. That's the one, right? David: You don't need to ask me about my budget if I'm not buying anything from you, right? Kevin: Yeah, yeah. What's your budget? What's your timeline? Right? Isn't that what everybody always says first? David: Yeah. And that's not the kind of thing that generally needs to come first. Initially, what needs to happen is they need to feel some sort of connection. They need to have a clear idea of what you do, how you can help them, and all that sort of thing. So I think a lot of times, in the early stages of a relationship when we're first meeting a prospect, it is information gathering from us, but it's about trying to find out what they need, what they're looking for,

Kevin and Aislinn talk about Wanderstop, the new game from the creator of The Stanley Parable Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:11:58: Game News 00:29:07: New Games 00:31:44: Wanderstop 01:15:33: Outro Links Pixelshire Release Date Honeymancer Early Access Release Date Space Sprouts Release Date Dave the Diver “Ichiban’s Holiday” DLC Another Harvest Moon G-Mode Game Cattle Country Optional Combat Funguys Swarm Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Kevin: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Kevin (0:00:34) Aislinn: And my name is Aislinn. (0:00:35) Kevin: And we are here to talk about cottagecore games supposedly that’s a little box. It’s whoo (0:00:40) Aislinn: Woo! (0:00:42) Kevin: I forget about that. Well, I always try to be a bit of a smart alec and adding nonsense there, but whoo (0:00:49) Kevin: Although I’m although I don’t know how much I like wooing at this game. I’m very hesitant about whoo (0:00:50) Aislinn: Woo! It’s cute, I like it. (0:00:56) Aislinn: That’s true, that’s true, you make a good point. (0:00:57) Kevin: I’m kidding. I love I love (0:00:58) Aislinn: Spoilers! (0:01:00) Kevin: We’re here to talk about wander stop the tea shop game by the I forget the actual dead team name the Stanley parable people (0:01:09) Kevin: Brace yourself because anyone who’s familiar Stanley parable knows that means things (0:01:16) Aislinn: I wholeheartedly agree. (0:01:17) Kevin: But (0:01:18) Kevin: Okay, but before we get to those things let’s talk about other things (0:01:23) Kevin: Aisling what’s what’s up? What’s been going on tell me about your sky high life? (0:01:26) Aislinn: Um, I think you already know what’s been going on. (0:01:30) Kevin: You (0:01:31) Aislinn: We’ve been very busy with work and when not working, (0:01:36) Aislinn: I’ve been very busy trying to make as much progress as humanly possible in Wandershop. (0:01:42) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:42) Aislinn: And when I’m not doing that, then I’m doing the usual like dailies on my phone of like (0:01:48) Aislinn: Pokémon Sleep, TCG Pocket. I’m hard into Neko Atsume right now. (0:01:50) Kevin: Uh-huh (0:01:52) Kevin: Okay (0:01:56) Aislinn: It’s just the original, and I want to try and get everything in Neko Atsume as much as possible. (0:01:57) Kevin: Okay, wait, what is that one do tell the name escapes me (0:02:03) Aislinn: It’s a cat collecting game. It’s a cat collecting mobile game, (0:02:07) Aislinn: and it’s literally just cat collection, and it’s so cute. It’s so cute. And there’s a new Neko Atsume (0:02:08) Kevin: oh yes okay i’m familiar with this one yes it is (0:02:14) Aislinn: that came out somewhat recently, so I’m like, I’m not gonna play that until I finish the original. (0:02:20) Aislinn: So that’s what I’ve been doing. And then if I’m not doing any of those, (0:02:22) Kevin: Sure. (0:02:25) Aislinn: that I’m doing a lot of wedding planning. (0:02:26) Aislinn: So that’s pretty much what I’ve been up to, yeah. (0:02:27) Kevin: Ahhh! (0:02:29) Kevin: Has that been on the show? Wait, has that been discussed on the show at all? (0:02:32) Kevin: I don’t, I don’t know if it… (0:02:32) Aislinn: No, it has not been discussed in the show, so. (0:02:34) Kevin: Ahh, okay, how far are we? What’s, uh, what’s our target date here? (0:02:39) Aislinn: Our tar- actually, I have not announced to, like, everyone the target date. (0:02:43) Kevin: Oh! (0:02:45) Aislinn: I’ve been keeping that, like, more on a personal note, but I can tell you June. (0:02:47) Kevin: Okay, well you got a range? (0:02:49) Kevin: Sure. (0:02:50) Kevin: Okay. Okay. Well, sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. (0:02:52) Aislinn: Yeah, so we’re almost there. (0:02:52) Kevin: Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. Very, um, very, very, uh, impressive dedicated you to to playing your wedding during the, the, the Go Fest this year, or whatever the thing’s called. (0:02:56) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:02:57) Aislinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:00) Aislinn: Literally, we’re not quite there yet. (0:03:06) Aislinn: It’s, yeah, no, each month that progresses closer and closer. (0:03:08) Kevin: Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. Very, um, very, very, uh, impressive dedicated you to, to playing your wedding during the, the, the, the Go Fest this year, or whatever the thing’s called. (0:03:09) Aislinn: I’m like more and more just panic, panic, panic. (0:03:22) Aislinn: Well, that wasn’t that wasn’t in the works (0:03:22) Kevin: The, um, all right, but, uh, good stuff. Okay. So let’s see here. Okay. Just, just a side note on that. Have you, uh, I’d play a different kind of cat collecting game. Have you ever heard of the battle cats? (0:03:25) Aislinn: That wasn’t that wasn’t supposed to happen, but it just happened to happen and I was like well (0:03:29) Aislinn: We’re gonna see what happens with that (0:03:46) Aislinn: Um, no, what is that? I’m looking that up right now. (0:03:46) Kevin: Oh, I think I’ve talked to that on the show, but, um, (0:03:52) Kevin: you know, I’m going to tag you an image on the slack. I’m creating the, the live slack thread of me. (0:03:58) Aislinn: Wait, this looks so cute. (0:04:04) Kevin: What are you, you googled it. (0:04:04) Aislinn: I’m looking at it right now. (0:04:05) Aislinn: Yeah, of course I googled it. (0:04:08) Kevin: Okay. Because I was going to show all, but did you see the freaky ones yet? Um, yes, those are legs. Did you see the one with the buff one? That’s the last four legs. (0:04:10) Aislinn: Oh, those are legs. (0:04:19) Aislinn: I have not seen that yet. (0:04:22) Kevin: Yes. They’re kind of cute, but also terrifying. Like it’s, it’s a very cheek cheeky, like comical tone. Um, yeah. Yeah. There you go. There’s good old fish cat. And those are just the basics, right? Like this, it’s a gotcha game. (0:04:30) Aislinn: It’s a it’s a good aesthetic. I like, oh, I found the buff one. I found the buff one. (0:04:40) Kevin: So, and it’s, I think 10 years old now and they actually get a lot of crossovers. They’ve crossed over, they cross over like Hatsune Miku every six years. Um, Street Fighter was one. (0:04:50) Aislinn: Ooh. (0:04:54) Kevin: Um, Konosuba, I think lots of animes. I don’t know. Um, but it’s yeah. And on the best part, the best part about their crossover is you get both ways. You get Hatsune Miku as a playable character and then you get a cat that looks like Hatsune Miku. (0:05:00) Aislinn: You got me with Miku, that’s it. That’s the end-all for me. Miku or boss? That’s it. (0:05:13) Aislinn: Oh my god. That is wonderful. (0:05:14) Kevin: Here, I’ll see if I can find it. Um, I play that one on and off. My brother is a big, um, is a big, uh, (0:05:22) Kevin: battle cats fan more than ISO. Um, uh, but, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s a great one there. I posted a pic. You want to see it. Um, there’s your Hatsune Miku cat. Um, they literally just used the standard cat and put the costume on it. It’s, it’s hilarious. Oh, one of my favorite ones. They did Evangelion. (0:05:34) Aislinn: Oh my god! It’s so cute! It’s so good! (0:05:40) Aislinn: That’s wonderful! (0:05:46) Aislinn: Ooh, that’s sick. That’s really cool. (0:05:50) Kevin: That was a good one, that was a good one. (0:05:54) Kevin: Anyways, so anything else, I’m sorry? (0:05:55) Aislinn: Well, I will be checking out this game. (0:05:58) Aislinn: I will be checking out this game. (0:05:58) Kevin: Oh, it’s free, be warned. (0:06:02) Aislinn: Oh, perfect! That’s all I need. Free is for me. That’s it. (0:06:04) Kevin: There you go. (0:06:04) Aislinn: um that’s pretty much been it I guess actually one one little thing that I can kind of announce (0:06:06) Kevin: Aw, sick, I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Battle Cats. (0:06:08) Kevin: It’s pretty fun. (0:06:10) Kevin: Anything else you’ve been up to? (0:06:19) Aislinn: and we’re really really hoping the best so like you know how I kept saying for today like oh i (0:06:21) Kevin: Yes, to be fair, you’re always busy so that wasn’t out of the ordinary. (0:06:23) Aislinn: have i’m busy earlier in the day and that’s we’re recording at 9 p.m eastern um yeah but it’s more (0:06:33) Aislinn: fun news so hope (0:06:34) Aislinn: we will have a new kitty or two in the household here so that’s what we were doing earlier today so i’m like I i’ve been holding that like i’ve been withholding that just for like a I wanted to get your genuine reaction like first reaction to it so (0:06:42) Kevin: Oh, oh hot off the press (0:06:54) Kevin: Oh (0:06:55) Aislinn: pause cast exclusive (0:06:57) Kevin: Podcast exclusive you heard it first here. Oh, that’s okay. Okay. You said possibly multiple. Well, yeah (0:07:05) Aislinn: yeah we’re just waiting on what I i’m not saying too much just because there’s a lot of logistics which I can tell you about later there’s a lot of logistics that we’re currently figuring out but it should hopefully work out tomorrow question mark. (0:07:11) Kevin: Sure (0:07:14) Kevin: Okay (0:07:15) Kevin: Yeah as (0:07:18) Kevin: You know, well, that’s that’s exciting. I can’t wait to hear and see them and so on but but that’s good (0:07:22) Aislinn: yeah. (0:07:24) Kevin: There should be logistics involved unlike us who a guy just kind of said. Hey, you want a free cat and handed us two kittens? (0:07:26) Aislinn: absolutely. (0:07:33) Kevin: Okay, oh they they are very love yes (0:07:33) Aislinn: but they are loved and that’s all that (0:07:34) Aislinn: matters but otherwise that’s it no not by any means (0:07:40) Kevin: Yeah that and let’s be honest cats are not the hardest to take care of (0:07:44) Kevin: You know that the hard part is cat. No, no such thing as catproofing but bracing for the uncommon storm, but (0:07:52) Aislinn: Yeah, we are definitely bracing here. (0:07:54) Kevin: Oh (0:07:55) Kevin: That’s exciting. I can’t wait to hear more. Um, congratulations. Very very excited about that (0:07:57) Aislinn: Yeah! Thank you! (0:08:00) Aislinn: What about for you? (0:08:01) Kevin: Okay, um (0:08:02) Kevin: so I will (0:08:02) Aislinn: I like your just Chicago man. (0:08:04) Kevin: Yeah, so I I don’t know if I mentioned it on this show, but I started a new job (0:08:12) Kevin: About a month and a half ago started February (0:08:15) Kevin: and (0:08:18) Kevin: I’m hit the ground running. They sent me to a trade show to man a booth (0:08:22) Kevin: and that was (0:08:24) Kevin: I was there all week this past week (0:08:26) Kevin: my feet are dead (0:08:28) Kevin: I’m ready to be chopped off (0:08:30) Kevin: not my first time in Chicago (0:08:32) Kevin: I actually went to that same event (0:08:34) Kevin: two years ago but (0:08:36) Kevin: as an attendee, not an exhibitor (0:08:38) Kevin: so yeah (0:08:38) Aislinn: Uh-huh. (0:08:40) Kevin: my role is partially sales now (0:08:42) Kevin: so I actually have to go up (0:08:44) Kevin: and pitch and talk to people and so on (0:08:46) Kevin: and so forth and try to get leads (0:08:48) Kevin: so that was (0:08:50) Kevin: busy, excited, it was good work (0:08:52) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:08:52) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:08:54) Kevin: Um, I, I, I learned a lot trial by fire, absolutely, but good times. (0:08:58) Kevin: Um, and, and there was other enjoy it. (0:09:00) Kevin: Well, it was, it was like 90% work, but there were some nice dinners. (0:09:05) Kevin: One night we hit a piano bar. (0:09:07) Kevin: That was quite fun. (0:09:08) Aislinn: Ooooh, that’s really cool. (0:09:09) Kevin: Uh, it wasn’t, it wasn’t even, it wasn’t a super classy one. (0:09:12) Kevin: Um, it was very more bar than piano, if that makes sense. (0:09:15) Kevin: But you had the guy up there playing the songs and, and, and you can make requests (0:09:19) Kevin: and there was enough space to dance, which I did. (0:09:21) Kevin: I am a dancing machine. (0:09:22) Aislinn: Bye! (0:09:22) Kevin: fun fact. (0:09:24) Kevin: so yeah so which after a full day of standing and exhibiting wasn’t the best (0:09:30) Kevin: idea of my I pre bled my feet for the next day but but so worth it yeah yeah (0:09:34) Aislinn: Eh, it’s all in good fun. It’s all in good fun! (0:09:37) Kevin: um yeah that was uh that was fun I tried the deep dish that was good weather (0:09:44) Kevin: weather was insane it was it was snowing when I landed and like the next day we (0:09:50) Kevin: We hit 70 degrees and then two days later it hailed. (0:09:50) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:54) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:54) Kevin: It was a roller coaster. (0:09:56) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:56) Kevin: Oh, a life first. I had a hailstone land directly into my mouth. (0:10:02) Kevin: As I said, was that hail and the duke just right in there? (0:10:06) Aislinn: Why do I feel like that’s like such a you thing? (0:10:10) Aislinn: That feels like such a you thing. (0:10:10) Kevin: Yeah, that’s… that’s correct. (0:10:12) Kevin: That is 100% correct. (0:10:16) Aislinn: I’ve never heard that before. That’s amazing. (0:10:18) Kevin: Yeah. (0:10:20) Kevin: Yup. (0:10:20) Aislinn: So it sounds like you had a great time in Chicago. (0:10:24) Kevin: Yeah, it was a lot of work, but it was a legendary time. (0:10:28) Kevin: We’ll be back in two years. Next year there’s a different trade. (0:10:30) Kevin: So actually here, right here in Atlanta, home turf. (0:10:34) Kevin: So at least I don’t have to do the major travel bit, but I’m sure it will be just as busy. (0:10:40) Kevin: But yes, good times were had, success was had by kind of me. (0:10:46) Kevin: Baby salesmen on his training wheels did little salesmen. (0:10:46) Aislinn: I’m sure you did great. (0:10:52) Kevin: Aside from that, obviously (0:10:54) Kevin: not a lot of time for games. I snuck in a few of the regulars. Marvel, Snap, Rivals, Unite, here and there on different occasions and so on. (0:11:00) Kevin: That’s all fine and all. (0:11:04) Kevin: Wander Stop, like you said, trying to squeeze in as much time humanly possible. (0:11:08) Kevin: And not even just because I want to play for the show, because I just want to play more Wander Stop. (0:11:08) Aislinn: No, me too I feel that, which we’ll definitely get into. (0:11:16) Kevin: And also, for the Mario-verse over there on the other show of Rainbow Road Radio, (0:11:22) Kevin: I play (0:11:24) Kevin: I did the same Kingdom. That’s not the little Mexican (0:11:27) Kevin: Kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey good times (0:11:30) Aislinn: Oh, sick. (0:11:31) Kevin: Yes, good. I love you mate. It’s all a replay (0:11:35) Kevin: But super enjoyable. I’m Mexican. What can I say? I’m super biased. They did I did Mario, Mexico (0:11:38) Aislinn: that game in general was just fantastic so i’m glad to hear that too that that section is like (0:11:40) Kevin: I have no complaints. They got him into sombrero (0:11:45) Kevin: It is yeah like (0:11:47) Kevin: What can I say what? (0:11:48) Aislinn: enjoyable for you (0:11:49) Kevin: She’s shocking this revisit to Super Mario Odyssey. Yeah, I’ve determined. It’s a good game (0:11:57) Kevin: Alright. (0:11:58) Kevin: Speaking of good games, I say that with an asterisk, or you have no idea. (0:12:02) Kevin: laughs Let’s talk about some game news. laughs Let’s talk about some announcements and such. (0:12:05) Aislinn: yeah (0:12:07) Kevin: Alright, take us away Ace with our first one. (0:12:09) Aislinn: all right so in game news the first game that I am looking at is pixel shire that’s going to be (0:12:16) Aislinn: releasing on the 8th of may and from what i’m looking at on the steam page it says that it is (0:12:22) Aislinn: an adventure farming sim 2d single player game from the developer capibits and it it really does (0:12:30) Aislinn: seem like a adventure farming sim 2d single player 2d single player game it also has notes about unique (0:12:37) Aislinn: RPG sandbox. (0:12:38) Aislinn: Which mixes Lifesim elements with town building, exploration, and combat. (0:12:46) Aislinn: And you can trade, you can do all the things that are normally in most farming sim games. (0:12:53) Kevin: that’s correct (0:12:55) Kevin: uh… I would (0:12:55) Aislinn: But it looks really cute! (0:12:56) Kevin: okay cs the first of all okay up (0:12:59) Kevin: the name I would imply it’s to be pixel art and it is cute (0:13:02) Kevin: uh… it is a a bit more chibi ask or or eight-bit than say uh… (0:13:05) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:13:08) Kevin: uh… stardew valley (0:13:09) Aislinn: It’s more round. (0:13:09) Kevin: uh… so you know (0:13:11) Kevin: uh… it’s a it’s different flavor (0:13:13) Kevin: uh… but there are some actually notable elements I think in here that (0:13:16) Kevin: they were talking about on first of all like you mentioned (0:13:18) Kevin: uh… sandbox as in (0:13:20) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:23) Aislinn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s really, really cool. (0:13:24) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:32) Aislinn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. (0:13:53) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:53) Aislinn: Oh, I didn’t realize that about this game too! That’s awesome! (0:14:08) Aislinn: I agree. Yeah, I like the art style. I like the kind of, I guess you could say animal (0:14:14) Aislinn: crossing aspect, but more so, more generally, the sandbox aspect of being able to, as it (0:14:20) Aislinn: says, re-sculpt the world through terraforming. I think that’s really, really cool. And honestly, (0:14:23) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they they emphasize on the yeah, yeah, so. (0:14:25) Aislinn: any game that has animals that you can raise to, they are so cute in this game. I love (0:14:31) Aislinn: it. So, but it looks, it looks great. Like as someone, as someone has been in a stance (0:14:36) Aislinn: of like being overwhelmed constantly by (0:14:38) Aislinn: farming games. This is this is a farming game. I know. This (0:14:40) Kevin: Welcome, welcome to the show, Eastland. (0:14:45) Aislinn: is one farming game that actually does peak more (0:14:47) Aislinn: interest versus other farming games. So yeah, big props to (0:14:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:14:51) Aislinn: them. Looks really, really cool. (0:14:53) Kevin: I have not facepalmed the one watching the trailer. (0:14:56) Kevin: So good on you. (0:14:58) Kevin: That’s a thumbs up. (0:15:00) Kevin: No, and you know what? (0:15:02) Kevin: I’m, I may jinx it, but I didn’t see any romance in there. (0:15:06) Aislinn: I’m sure there’s romance. There’s no way there’s not. There’s no way there’s not. (0:15:06) Kevin: Free free from the shackles. (0:15:08) Kevin: No, well, either way. (0:15:13) Kevin: Oh, oh, okay. (0:15:15) Kevin: Wait, hold on one second. (0:15:16) Kevin: I just want to say, okay, sorry about that. (0:15:16) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:15:18) Kevin: The jaws theme played as my puppy entered the room. (0:15:21) Aislinn: Oh, no. (0:15:21) Kevin: Um… [laughs] (0:15:23) Kevin: Um… [laughs] (0:15:25) Kevin: Okay. Alright, what’s up next? Do tell me. (0:15:28) Aislinn: All right, so the next game that I’m looking at here is Honeymancer, and it’s coming soon to Early Access. (0:15:36) Aislinn: It’s currently on March 27th. (0:15:38) Aislinn: So, yeah, or actually, yeah, that’s what it seems to look like. March 27th, Early Access, coming soon, and also another Pixel 2D-looking situation, but this is more so the tags are Indie, RPG, Pixel Graphics, Tower Defense 2D, and it looks like this is not really a farming game at all. (0:16:01) Aislinn: And when I first looked at it with the just because of the art style alone, I was like, oh, it’s another far (0:16:06) Aislinn: I’m again, I’m like, oh, wait, no, it’s not. Wait, that’s really cool. And it’s got bees and we love bees here. So (0:16:09) Kevin: Yeah (0:16:12) Kevin: Yeah, all right, so there’s a few few things going on here right first of all the premise of bear wizard (0:16:19) Kevin: That’s pretty strong already right you’re you’re setting its own bear witch excuse me (0:16:25) Kevin: You have a one you’re shooting things in combat (0:16:28) Kevin: You’re fighting off robots invading the forest with other cute neighbor animals (0:16:33) Aislinn: which the robots look so cute by the way I just again the art style I’m just like gosh I love (0:16:35) Kevin: They do (0:16:38) Aislinn: this art style it’s so cute I’m such a sucker for good art styles yeah they do it’s so cute (0:16:40) Kevin: I (0:16:41) Kevin: Yup, it is a it is a very strong art style. Absolutely. I’m again 2d pixel, but it’s a very strong one (0:16:47) Kevin: I like how even the trees kind of look like beehives. It’s a very cute little touch (0:16:53) Kevin: yep (0:16:54) Kevin: there looks like there’s (0:16:57) Kevin: Management of some kind you’re growing flowers for bees making potions. So, you know, there’s elements of cottagecore stuff (0:17:03) Kevin: But it’s not your standard you have grandpa’s farm or whatever on which is fun (0:17:09) Kevin: Special shoutouts to the as they describe it the bee dog. There’s a large bumblebee flying you around. It’s more bee than dog (0:17:17) Kevin: we the the big question which (0:17:20) Kevin: You know, we’ll have to wait is where does it land on the Cody scale of acceptability? (0:17:25) Aislinn: I know, we’ll have to stay tuned to find out, right? (0:17:28) Kevin: Is it is it is it Cheeba fight is it cartoonified enough? (0:17:34) Kevin: But I mean, it’s a pretty big bee. So I think she’s gonna be on (0:17:36) Aislinn: It is a very big B. (0:17:39) Kevin: Bigger than you. So I think I think she’s gonna be on board with this one (0:17:40) Aislinn: It really is. (0:17:44) Kevin: But there are other non giant bees that you are helping raise. So that’s fun (0:17:49) Kevin: You know, it’s hard to tell how deep they’re going into it and unexpected to be (0:17:53) Kevin: You know for on be sim but but it looks good enough. It goes into the bear honey (0:17:59) Aislinn: Yeah, no, it looks it looks really cute. It’s hard to get much information based off of just (0:17:59) Kevin: So yeah (0:18:03) Aislinn: the Steam page, but like it looks generally really cute. We’ll see you soon in early access. (0:18:04) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:06) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:09) Aislinn: If this is your type of gameplay, I think it’s worth checking out because it just the (0:18:09) Kevin: March 27th (0:18:13) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:13) Aislinn: colors alone are like really pretty too. Yeah, I love that. Uh-huh. Yeah, they feel very anime. (0:18:15) Kevin: The colors are very well done (0:18:16) Kevin: I like the expressions on the characters and the little portraits when they’re speaking they get exaggerated in cartoonish. That’s that’s (0:18:24) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s fantastic (0:18:26) Kevin: I’m right because I think that’s probably a big criticism (0:18:30) Kevin: You have a lot of these cottage cores like the this character portraits are somewhat muted a lot of times (0:18:35) Kevin: I would say this one’s going for the anime eyes and everything (0:18:39) Aislinn: Yeah, I like it. I really do like it (0:18:39) Kevin: It’s great. I have one big criticism against it though (0:18:45) Kevin: And it’s nothing the game itself done, but unfortunately the title of honeymancer actually (0:18:45) Aislinn: Oh, okay (0:18:52) Kevin: I think it’s honey wizard has already been claimed by Winnie the Pooh in the Lorkana (0:18:57) Kevin: Card game have you okay? I posted it in the thread if you’ll take a look Aislin (0:19:01) Aislinn: Let me see. (0:19:02) Kevin: Lorkana the Disney TCG came out with a card called Winnie the Pooh honey wizard and (0:19:03) Aislinn: Oh my gosh, I’ve never, (0:19:07) Aislinn: I’ve never seen Winnie the Pooh look so magical. (0:19:09) Kevin: It’s pretty amazing. It’s (0:19:12) Kevin: Possibly the best card. They’ve ever come out with and so (0:19:15) Kevin: you know you do a lot of great things honeyman sir, but (0:19:16) Aislinn: Was that a pun? (0:19:20) Kevin: You got a tall tall bar or tall bear. I guess to cross to overcome there (0:19:24) Aislinn: What was that a pun though? Is that possibly you get it the pun because you said possibly possibly (0:19:28) Kevin: Do what oh (0:19:31) Kevin: Yes, yes (0:19:35) Kevin: Okay, I guess all right there all right beautiful (0:19:37) Aislinn: We got it we got we got there one way or another we got there (0:19:39) Kevin: I like this shot of the raccoon screaming in the trailer just eyes fisheyes in different directions with full vertical mouth. It’s great (0:19:52) Kevin: Yeah, all right (0:19:55) Kevin: What a speaking of moods. What do we actually I do have a mood. I don’t know what’s next. What’s next? (0:19:58) Aislinn: The next game is the next game is Space Sprouts, an exploration puzzle physics simulation 2D (0:20:01) Kevin: No, it’s (0:20:09) Aislinn: game are the tags, and it does primarily look like it’s a puzzle game where you bend the (0:20:17) Aislinn: rule of physics, experiment with unusual gadgets, and toss everything around. (0:20:23) Aislinn: I think out of the three games that we discussed so far, I think this game feels mostly up (0:20:28) Aislinn: because I’m always down for a good puzzle game, and the fact that there is physics in this too (0:20:31) Kevin: Uh huh. Yeah, in a good way. Yeah, that that that is a very specific alliterative title (0:20:33) Aislinn: really also intrigues me. It looks like it also kind of infuriates me, but I’m kind of, (0:20:38) Aislinn: oh perfect, cozy cosmic chaos feels like the perfect description for this game. (0:20:47) Kevin: and it works. Right, so space is the key thing right here, right? We’re not we’re managing (0:20:52) Kevin: a space station. And so you’re going to have gravity physics and light bending and all (0:20:56) Kevin: sorts of nonsense. There’s all in the trailer, you see the water floating around, you have (0:21:01) Kevin: a push it or whatever. So expect space shenanigans. Um, that sounds kind of cute. Like a very muted (0:21:09) Kevin: storybook looking design for these characters. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it is a very nice looking (0:21:12) Aislinn: Yeah, I like the colors. (0:21:15) Aislinn: I’m all about the colors of all of these games so far. (0:21:18) Aislinn: All of these games look really, really nice. (0:21:21) Kevin: game. Demo out now if you are curious and full release date in just a little over a (0:21:28) Kevin: for a week on March 31st. (0:21:30) Aislinn: Almost there! (0:21:32) Kevin: Yup, so, uh, good on you space sprouts. (0:21:35) Kevin: Um, yeah, I’m sure some people hint, hint on the show. (0:21:39) Kevin: Might like, I don’t, I, I have no idea who, but I feel like somebody (0:21:42) Aislinn: I mean, I like it, I’m interested in it. (0:21:43) Kevin: on the show will want to play. (0:21:48) Kevin: Well, oh, there we, okay. (0:21:49) Kevin: That’s one down. (0:21:50) Kevin: Let’s, let’s get another, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll see. (0:21:53) Aislinn: I might be infuriated, I don’t know, but I’m also like, it’s a good type of infuriating (0:21:57) Kevin: Well, yeah, and that’s fine. (0:21:57) Aislinn: and that’s what this game looks like, so I’m into it. (0:22:01) Kevin: I’ve had the bad period on the show many, many times, possibly more than not. (0:22:07) Aislinn: It’d really be that way. (0:22:11) Kevin: All right, next up. (0:22:12) Kevin: Ooh, this is a good one. (0:22:14) Aislinn: You take the floor. (0:22:14) Kevin: I think they’d announced it. (0:22:16) Kevin: Yeah, I think they announced it during the game awards or no. (0:22:20) Kevin: Was that the jungle DLC? (0:22:21) Kevin: I feel like this was announced at some point, but if not, we got a full, (0:22:25) Kevin: uh, a more proper breakdown of Dave, the diver DLC can’t. (0:22:31) Kevin: Stop won’t stop. (0:22:32) Kevin: I mean, I mean, they’re made by the maple story desk, so they have (0:22:35) Kevin: the money to actually never stop. (0:22:37) Aislinn: Just keep going. (0:22:37) Kevin: Um, yeah, basically. (0:22:41) Kevin: Um, and so it is a, not that it is the second, um, crossover DLC this time (0:22:46) Kevin: with the like a dragon series, AKA previously known as the Yakuza series. (0:22:51) Kevin: Um, you are teaming up with itchy bond, um, and doing all sorts of shenanigans. (0:22:57) Kevin: Are you familiar with like a dragon at all? (0:22:59) Aislinn: I am like not I’ve never played the games, but like I am familiar and I remember when I heard about this (0:23:05) Aislinn: Because I heard about this like a while ago. I don’t remember how long it was long ago. It was but I was like, what? (0:23:10) Kevin: Yeah (0:23:10) Aislinn: I was like, how did the two these two worlds collide? I need to know how these two worlds collided. This is so cool (0:23:15) Kevin: Well (0:23:19) Kevin: It is and at the same time that feels appropriate for both franchises how on earth did this happen (0:23:25) Kevin: Um, I have never played one myself, but I am also familiar very familiar with the series (0:23:30) Kevin: so introduced we have (0:23:33) Kevin: Included in all these features. We have a genuine 2d beat ’em up side scroller where you can play as Ichiban and (0:23:41) Kevin: Cobra yeah, I think it plays Cobra Wow Oh Cobra’s playable. I didn’t catch that. That’s so cool (0:23:47) Kevin: There is a karaoke minigame because if nothing else what if that was included how could this be called like a dragon? (0:23:56) Kevin: We have let’s see what else here (0:23:59) Kevin: We’ve got we got several characters from the like a dragon series as staff members for your restaurant. It’s fun (0:24:07) Aislinn: I like that there seems to be the karaoke minigame. I feel like that fear feels very, like, Yakuza-esque. (0:24:08) Kevin: Ah, junk. (0:24:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:24:15) Kevin: Oh, yeah, it is. (0:24:17) Kevin: Um, yeah, that land that launches, uh, April 10th, not terribly far away, about two weeks away. (0:24:26) Kevin: Um, so there, there will probably be a return to David diver sometime in the future. (0:24:32) Kevin: Uh, because I’m playing this. (0:24:34) Kevin: Absolutely. (0:24:36) Kevin: Um, that looks great. (0:24:36) Aislinn: It looks great, it really does look great. (0:24:40) Kevin: So I keep an eye out and then the jungle DLC is still being worked on and coming in the future. (0:24:45) Kevin: So again, can’t stop, won’t stop. (0:24:49) Kevin: Um, Dave keeps diving and doing everyone’s work. (0:24:52) Kevin: Um, all right, let’s see next up. (0:24:55) Kevin: Another series that has not yet stopped as of now. (0:24:58) Kevin: Uh, we’ve got story of seasons or I guess this one is like harvest moon proper because it’s, it’s in Japanese as of now, um, a harvest moon G mode game. (0:25:10) Kevin: Um, it, it is a port of a phone game from, what was it like 2008, I think on the harvest moon series. (0:25:16) Aislinn: Yes, it says 2008 on the Steam page, and yeah, it’s a port coming to Steam, but… (0:25:21) Kevin: Yup. (0:25:22) Kevin: Yup. (0:25:23) Kevin: So it’s a early mobile farming game and you know, that’s, that’s cool. (0:25:27) Kevin: You can see it, you can feel it kind of GBA S graphics, um, which is fun and cute. (0:25:34) Kevin: Um, you know, too bad it’s all in Japanese. (0:25:36) Aislinn: I, you know, cause I’ve been telling myself for the past like couple weeks, like I really (0:25:36) Kevin: So, this one I won’t be playing, probably. (0:25:45) Aislinn: should actively get back into learning Japanese. Cause I was learning Japanese at one point (0:25:50) Aislinn: when I was in like first grade and then I fell off cause I was a stubborn kid, long (0:25:54) Kevin: Hmm. Okay. (laughs) (0:25:55) Aislinn: story short, but like, I don’t know. Maybe if I get back into actually learning properly, (0:26:00) Aislinn: maybe I’ll pick up this game. It looks cute, but I don’t know anything about it because (0:26:02) Kevin: yeah it does (0:26:06) Kevin: yeah we can’t read a thing on it we just (0:26:10) Kevin: it’s all I can do is point and says that looks like a harvest moon game for a (0:26:14) Aislinn: I was like, “That’s a cow! That’s chicken! That’s all I’ve got!” (0:26:14) Kevin: phone (0:26:18) Kevin: there are anime pretty people that you can probably romance (0:26:22) Kevin: yeah uh… (0:26:24) Kevin: but uh… (0:26:26) Kevin: yeah uh… releasing on steam do we have a date for that (0:26:29) Kevin: And it’s coming soon. Yeah. (0:26:30) Aislinn: As of now, we do not have a date, but regardless, if you are interested in this and you can (0:26:33) Kevin: But yeah, we, yeah. (0:26:36) Aislinn: read Japanese, even if you can’t read Japanese and you are interested in it, it is coming soon! (0:26:41) Kevin: Oh man, go back to those early 2000s when you have the fan translation from GameFacts. (0:26:47) Kevin: Good times. (0:26:50) Kevin: But but yeah, you know, one thing to note, this is a second port that they’ve done in the series, (0:26:55) Kevin: which is interesting to me, suggesting that the first one was successful enough to warrant it. (0:27:00) Aislinn: I guess so. (0:27:01) Kevin: That’s pretty cool. (0:27:02) Aislinn: I’m glad. (0:27:02) Kevin: Yeah, I know nothing either. I should’ve picked up Japanese. I’m too big of a weeb not to. (0:27:03) Aislinn: I’m glad for the people that do care about this. (0:27:05) Aislinn: I know nothing about it, but I am happy for those that care about it. (0:27:12) Kevin: I mean, I know some Japanese words. I want to make them echo the journey one day, but in due time I guess. (0:27:20) Kevin: Alright, let’s see here. Next up we’ve got info on cattle country. Yes, not Kent County. Country bigger than that. (0:27:30) Kevin: We have got (0:27:33) Kevin: They say so what interesting thing (0:27:37) Kevin: The thing probably the biggest note is, you know, they’re talking about some features and whatnot, but combat is totally optional (0:27:44) Kevin: Which is kind of wild to see in these games right cuz (0:27:48) Kevin: You know most cottagecore games following the stardew template (0:27:53) Kevin: How you know have some kind of? (0:27:56) Kevin: combat stuck in there, right (0:27:58) Kevin: And it’s you know, just because it’s optional. It’s not bad here. I’m looking that you got bows and arrows (0:28:02) Kevin: And guns and all sorts of stuff (0:28:05) Kevin: But the fact that it’s optional and they’re advertising that that’s uh, that’s pretty fun (0:28:10) Aislinn: I think it’s great yeah I i don’t know why that would put that would it’s a great it’s (0:28:15) Aislinn: it’s a great thing honestly like I have nothing else to say besides like this is something that (0:28:19) Aislinn: is a great feature because if you want to do it you can do it if you don’t want to (0:28:22) Aislinn: you just ignore it’s a win-win (0:28:24) Kevin: Yup. Yup. This is another game where it looks like you can partner up with some of your neighbors or villagers and whatnot, so that’s, that’s fun. (0:28:32) Kevin: There’s, yeah, I think we’ve talked about it before, but there’s, if you look at the trailer, there’s square dancing. They’re playing a nice Western medley song. (0:28:40) Kevin: Um, you’re, it’s very, how, it’s, it’s HANU. Um, that’s what it is. We got state coaches, we got trains, all the good stuff. (0:28:40) Aislinn: Very, it’s definitely very howdy partner. (0:28:52) Kevin: Um, they’re good at ge– (0:28:54) Kevin: Hey, howdy, hey, get your snake in your boot and keep an eye out for cattle count–country. (0:28:57) Aislinn: I mean, there’s even a character named Bandit, so take that as you will. (0:29:00) Kevin: Um, again, I don’t– (0:29:02) Kevin: Yeah, there you go! Eyes required. (0:29:07) Kevin: Alright, next up, a new game, we’ve got, uh, okay. (0:29:10) Kevin: So I started looking at this, and, you know, pre-recording, you know, going over, preparing, whatnot. (0:29:15) Kevin: And I stopped because I just kept saying, “What is this?” I needed to– (0:29:20) Kevin: to put some of that energy into the recording. (0:29:24) Kevin: We are looking at a game called “Fungi’s Swarm.” (0:29:24) Aislinn: It’s so silly. (0:29:28) Kevin: Um, so, you know, G-U-Y-S, “Sworn.” (0:29:32) Kevin: Um, it is a bullet hell game. (0:29:36) Kevin: Um, it is their first dev, uh, like, dev blog. (0:29:41) Kevin: Um, and they are showing it’s– (0:29:44) Kevin: Kinda what the whole thing, right? It is a cartoony, survivor bullet hell, where you become a fungi, (0:29:49) Kevin: wield forest-crafted weapons and unleash bonkers powers against the fire killer. (0:29:54) Kevin: So you there’s a lot going on here. There’s a mushroom guy running around. There’s pumpkin vegetable monsters and bears and like vegetables. I don’t an apple bear and an apple. (0:30:08) Aislinn: There’s a there’s an easter egg for from Coral Island of a waterfowl and it’s the cutest thing I’ve ever seen (0:30:14) Kevin: What I didn’t see that’s incredible. That’s incredible. (0:30:20) Kevin: incredible you’re running around is your little fungus guy with (0:30:24) Kevin: giant watermelon acts like the waterman slice is bigger than you are (0:30:27) Kevin: it’s enormous there’s a great blaster gun thing you’ve got the powers like oh (0:30:34) Kevin: oh yeah that’s uh this is some good stuff there’s what is going on with this (0:30:40) Kevin: apple teeny it’s a half-eaten apple with a warm a very buff warm popping out of (0:30:45) Kevin: it you know there’s runs it’s oh it’s colorful it’s wacky it’s cartoony it’s (0:30:54) Kevin: magnificent I don’t what are these little for sanctuary pals you got like (0:30:58) Kevin: buzz balls with fruit stems there’s all block (0:31:00) Aislinn: I have no, not a single clue, but it looks like, it looks cute and fun, cozy and fun. (0:31:08) Kevin: yep yep (0:31:08) Aislinn: It looks like it’s a good balance of that, I feel like. (0:31:11) Aislinn: I feel like it does somehow fit into the Cottagecore game. (0:31:14) Aislinn: It just, it just somehow does fit, yes it is like a bullet hell game, but it still feels, (0:31:20) Aislinn: it feels like it’s going to be accessible enough to fall into the category of Cottagecore. (0:31:20) Kevin: Oh, yeah for sure. Um, it’s certainly caught my eye (0:31:27) Kevin: Obviously, we’re gonna be a ways off from this bad boy coming out, but I’m definitely keeping my out that is again fun guys swarm (0:31:35) Kevin: They’re good on you a lot of good news stories this week. Nothing. Nothing. Give me any heartache or anything (0:31:38) Aislinn: Honestly, yeah. (0:31:42) Kevin: That’s exciting stuff. Oh (0:31:45) Kevin: All right, and with that let’s talk about some let’s move on to something else exciting. Let’s talk about (0:31:50) Aislinn: Yeah. Oh my gosh. (0:31:50) Kevin: Wonder stuff, huh? (0:31:53) Kevin: Okay, so again, this is the tea shop simulator created by the Stanley parable dev team (0:32:01) Kevin: If you haven’t played Stanley parable (0:32:04) Kevin: You might want to pause go listen because I think we need to talk about it because that’s important for context (0:32:09) Kevin: and (0:32:10) Kevin: So important that acelin has actually played Stanley parable prior to the gay wonder stuff in preparation (0:32:17) Kevin: So let’s hear some thoughts (0:32:17) Aislinn: I did. Yeah, so I, yeah, once I found out that this game was being created by the people (0:32:25) Aislinn: that made Stanley Parable, I very much was like, I’ve always wanted to play Stanley Parable, (0:32:31) Aislinn: but I put that way up on my, I moved that way up for my backlog, because I knew and (0:32:35) Kevin: Uh-huh (0:32:37) Aislinn: I’ve heard great things about this game, which I think everyone knows about. If you haven’t (0:32:41) Aislinn: played the game, you still know the premise of the game and what the game is all about. (0:32:43) Kevin: John (0:32:44) Kevin: Yep for for (0:32:45) Aislinn: And I was very curious to check it out. (0:32:46) Kevin: Yeah for clarity. I have not played it myself, but as you said, I am very familiar (0:32:50) Kevin: I know all the secrets. I don’t feel free to let out whatever you want. Um, you just listener assume we’re spoiling whatever. Okay, it’s (0:32:53) Aislinn: Yeah, I played as many, spoiler warning for Stanley Parable, a very long time. (0:32:59) Kevin: Yes game that’s been out how long now (0:33:04) Aislinn: But the thing is, before I played Stanley Parable, I knew it was a strange game or a (0:33:08) Aislinn: very interesting game that a lot of people liked, but I didn’t know what the premise (0:33:11) Aislinn: of the game was. (0:33:12) Aislinn: So I went in pretty blind and it was an experience for sure. (0:33:17) Aislinn: It took me a while to get into because I was like, “What is happening?” (0:33:21) Kevin: Ha ha ha ha! (0:33:23) Aislinn: As I continued, I was like, “Okay, I’m starting to get it. (0:33:26) Aislinn: I’m starting to understand.” (0:33:27) Aislinn: And it was a very, very fun and fascinating and silly game. (0:33:33) Aislinn: And I did pretty much almost all of the endings except the ones like the, what was it, like (0:33:40) Aislinn: the baby one with like the dog and like the, you have to like stand up. (0:33:42) Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. (0:33:44) Aislinn: You know that one, that one ending, we have to like be in the game for like three hours (0:33:47) Aislinn: or something. (0:33:49) Aislinn: I refused to do that one. (0:33:49) Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. (0:33:50) Aislinn: I just watched it on YouTube. (0:33:51) Aislinn: I was like, “There’s no way I’m doing this.” (0:33:54) Aislinn: But just like that absurdity and like that confusion, I’m just like, “Yeah, no. (0:33:59) Aislinn: Okay. (0:33:59) Aislinn: I understand why people like this game now. (0:34:01) Aislinn: Like I have not experienced this in a game in a very, very, very long time.” (0:34:05) Aislinn: And it just took twists and turns and I was like, “Huh.” (0:34:09) Aislinn: And I was happy that I got to experience that before playing this game. (0:34:13) Aislinn: Cause I was curious if they were going to do things in this game that also (0:34:16) Aislinn: kind of caught me off guard and surprised me and that definitely did happen. (0:34:18) Kevin: All right, yep. (0:34:23) Aislinn: As a general notice, we’re not going to spoil like main plots of the game. (0:34:30) Aislinn: We may talk about a little bit of hint towards a little couple of things here (0:34:33) Aislinn: and there, but we’ll try our best to not spoil the game because both of us are (0:34:37) Aislinn: just about at the same point in the story and we both kind of share the sentiment (0:34:40) Aislinn: that we want y’all to check out the game and experience the not absurdity, but (0:34:47) Aislinn: just like the twists and turns of the game that also surprised me. (0:34:49) Kevin: Yep. (0:34:53) Aislinn: I was playing Wanderstop as I continued into it. (0:34:55) Kevin: Uh-huh. (0:34:56) Aislinn: Like it took me a while to get into Stanley Parable. (0:34:57) Aislinn: It took me a while to get into Wanderstop. (0:34:59) Aislinn: And as I continue, I was like start, I felt the same feeling that I felt when I (0:34:59) Kevin: Yeah. (0:35:03) Aislinn: was playing Wanderstop versus when I was playing Stanley Parable, but in just (0:35:04) Kevin: So. (0:35:07) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:35:08) Kevin: Right. (0:35:09) Kevin: Okay, so. (0:35:11) Kevin: Again, if someone who- so, that’s all great. (0:35:13) Kevin: And I appreciate you played it, ‘cause at least one of us can speak to it, but, um… (0:35:15) Aislinn: Well, you know about it too, you know. (0:35:19) Kevin: And so. (0:35:21) Kevin: Like. (0:35:22) Kevin: Maybe I don’t fully have heard everything, but the tone of Stanley Parable is almost… (0:35:29) Kevin: It’s very absurdist, very- almost adversarial in times, right? (0:35:32) Kevin: Like the narrator is constantly fighting against you, or you’re being sent down roads that are unpleasant, or so on and so forth, right? (0:35:39) Kevin: Like, it’s an enjoyable experience and a lot of fun, don’t get me, like, clearly, but… (0:35:45) Kevin: It is a very different vibe from a Cottagecore game, right? (0:35:49) Aislinn: Yes, very much so. (0:35:49) Kevin: So, when you- (0:35:51) Kevin: Right? (0:35:52) Kevin: And so when you hear they’re doing this- a tea shop simil- and they’re, you know, outright saying it’s gonna be a cozy game, like… (0:36:00) Kevin: What am I- what am I gonna do? I’m- I’m on guard, like, you’re the Stanley Parable people. (0:36:02) Aislinn: I know! (0:36:04) Kevin: I don’t believe a word you say, I am- (0:36:06) Aislinn: It literally says on the Steam page, “From the creator of the Stanley Parable.” (0:36:11) Aislinn: It’s the first line! (0:36:11) Kevin: Yep, so. (0:36:12) Kevin: Yup. (0:36:13) Kevin: So, I’m, you know, I’m coming into Wanderstop armed with a knife, just ready to fight back whatever this game’s- (0:36:19) Kevin: he’s gonna throw at me, right? (0:36:21) Kevin: Um… (0:36:22) Kevin: And, um… (0:36:24) Kevin: Well, I mean, shocker, it’s not the Stanley Parable, right? Like, some things carry over, like, it’s quality-quality writing. (0:36:31) Kevin: Excellent writing throughout, absolutely. (0:36:33) Kevin: There are some twists and turns, but it’s- it’s not in the insane, zany Stanley Parable way, it’s- it’s all, you know, in a narrative structure that- that fits it and whatnot. (0:36:46) Kevin: Um… (0:36:47) Kevin: I can confirm. (0:36:49) Kevin: I would call this a cozy game, but it’s a cozy game that sometimes pulls out a knife on you because sometimes I’m not ready for it. (0:36:54) Aislinn: Yes. (0:36:59) Aislinn: Yes. (0:37:00) Aislinn: Yes. (0:37:02) Kevin: I’ll get to that in a second, but the point being, there’s no secret endings, there’s no crazy insane tasks. (0:37:13) Kevin: And I tried, like one of the first things I did, like when you start the game you can run back into the force. I ran into the force like ten times. (0:37:19) Kevin: I was expecting something and nothing happened. I looked it up and there’s nothing, no insane hidden things like Stanley Parable, right? (0:37:30) Kevin: There’s some stuff, but nothing just completely insane. (0:37:36) Kevin: So yeah, it’s wild to see that they’re actually playing it straight. We’re getting a “cozy game”. (0:37:44) Kevin: So with that in mind, let’s talk about the premise, because I say (0:37:49) Kevin: “cozy” but there’s a big asterisk here because it is possibly one of the most “uncozy” openings to any game ever. (0:37:52) Aislinn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:37:57) Aislinn: But I loved it. I genuinely loved it. (0:37:57) Kevin: And yes, yep. So this is, and you’re not an avatar, you’re not a Stanley, a blankly avatar more or less, you are playing a character named Alta. (0:38:09) Kevin: She is a fighter, a warrior, goes into tournaments. The story starts with her description of her wanting to be the best. (0:38:18) Kevin: she’s undefeated for like three. (0:38:19) Kevin: and she just totally off her game so what does she do she seeks out help she (0:38:21) Aislinn: Very, very long time, but yeah. (0:38:45) Kevin: He seeks out Master Winters, a legendary warrior. (0:38:49) Kevin: Who she thinks can help her get a groove back. (0:38:52) Kevin: So, Alta runs through the forest, but then at some point, her body starts to fail her. (0:38:59) Kevin: She collapses, and she wakes up in this clearing in the forest, in front of a tea shop called “Wanderstup”. (0:39:06) Kevin: She meets the proprietor, a man named Boro, who is a fantastic… (0:39:10) Aislinn: Oh, he’s wonderful. I love him. (0:39:13) Kevin: He is the complete, I would say foil, like opposite foil to Alta. (0:39:16) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:39:17) Kevin: She is the most chills (0:39:19) Kevin: Zen just goes with the flow kind of guy. He’s happy. Good luck. He always cracking jokes and whatnot. Um (0:39:24) Aislinn: So sweet (0:39:26) Kevin: He’s a wonderful man. Um, he is the one who rescued Alta (0:39:30) Kevin: explains where she is and (0:39:33) Kevin: and basically suggests for her to take a break because (0:39:38) Kevin: One of the first thing she does is try to pick her her sword and she can’t (0:39:41) Kevin: Why meanwhile borrow can pick it up. No problem. And it’s just something (0:39:46) Kevin: Something going on with Arthur. She can’t fight. She can’t… (0:39:49) Kevin: She can’t lift her. (0:39:50) Kevin: if you run back into the forest like I did you just collapse and are sent back to the clearing so (0:39:54) Aislinn: I did too for context. I also did the same thing as you, because I was like, I just need to know. (0:39:57) Kevin: Yeah (0:39:59) Kevin: Yeah, it’s though it would be that (0:40:00) Aislinn: Especially again, coming off of Stanley Parable, I was like, I just need to know. (0:40:02) Kevin: it (0:40:04) Kevin: It would be the most Stanley peril thing in the world right the run out you get it ending (0:40:08) Kevin: like absolutely, so (0:40:10) Kevin: So yeah, so that um so with you know after repeated attempts if you do or you just give up (0:40:17) Kevin: Boro suggests to Ulta to just stay there (0:40:20) Kevin: and the tea shop to help out to try to rest and recover (0:40:23) Kevin: because she’s clearly suffering from over exhaustion. (0:40:27) Kevin: And and so that and already at this very 10 minute initial premise, (0:40:33) Kevin: the game is is is going at me like directly targeting me bullseye because. (0:40:39) Kevin: So, OK, you are a hard worker. (0:40:42) Kevin: You probably relate to this. (0:40:44) Kevin: I think a lot of people from our generation, how we were raised, like, (0:40:48) Kevin: you know, we a lot of people, (0:40:50) Kevin: we’re raising the very drive, like driven generation, right? (0:40:54) Kevin: Work hard, work hard, succeed, go to the next thing, right? (0:40:56) Aislinn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (0:40:57) Kevin: Be the top, be first in class, right? (0:40:59) Kevin: And and I personally like my I was in the warrior, (0:41:02) Kevin: but like I graduated salutatorian in high school. (0:41:05) Kevin: Like my academic pursuits were like everything to me. (0:41:08) Aislinn: Mm-hmm. (0:41:10) Kevin: So I can relate to that very much so. (0:41:13) Kevin: And then there comes a point when life just punches you in the face (0:41:17) Kevin: And you, you know, you just, you’re, you’re knocked out a few. (0:41:20) Kevin: Notches. So I get this and I’m already very not comfortable with how personal this story has gotten. (0:41:26) Aislinn: Yeah, yeah, I really felt the anger that Alta was feeling in the beginning, not to the fullest extent, because I’m just generally not a very like angry person. But like, what, like the underlying emotions of that anger, I genuinely felt because I definitely also feel that in the sense that as a person that considers myself very hardworking as well, to be working so hard, and then to be knocked down like that, it really, really, really sucks. I get that. (0:41:34) Kevin: Yeah. Right. (0:41:54) Kevin: Yep (0:41:56) Aislinn: I definitely really felt for her right off the bat. Like immediately, I was like, Oh, this is one of those games. Oh, no, my heart. I was like, Oh, no, they really did. (0:42:00) Kevin: Yeah (0:42:04) Kevin: Yup (0:42:10) Kevin: Yup, yup. Yup. They have set the stage (0:42:15) Kevin: and and and again in right there in contrast with Boro a wonderful truly cozy character and then also the most (0:42:24) Kevin: I have possibly seen in a cottage core game (0:42:28) Kevin: But (0:42:30) Kevin: Like for me that one of the bits that really resonated is just running through the forest right getting back up going back (0:42:36) Kevin: Like I relate to that very much so to to maybe not on well (0:42:42) Kevin: Okay, I’ll say someone on the healthy levels, but or it’s let’s say it’s affected me right like I’ve definitely (0:42:47) Aislinn: We all go through it. We’re human. We all go through it. (0:42:48) Kevin: Right, right. Yeah (0:42:51) Kevin: Um, and so being forced to stop. (0:42:54) Kevin: That out of your control, that’s something I wouldn’t handle. (0:42:57) Kevin: Well, I&am

We'd love to help you to get from here to there in terms of eliminating waste in your business. When you're focused on getting those things done and when you've got processes and procedures in place to allow you to accomplish it more quickly, then everything gets a whole lot better. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist, and I will be discussing eliminating waste in your business. Welcome, Kevin. Kevin: Great to see you. David. Excited to be here. David: I'm excited to have you here. Kevin: Yeah, so we're talking waste, obviously waste in business. There's different kinds of waste. A lot of people will immediately think of money, but that's not really what we're talking about, is it? David: Well, some of what we're talking about, I guess. Yeah. There's been a lot of talk about finding and eliminating waste in the news. So I thought, how does that really apply when you're operating a business? Kevin: Mm-hmm. David: Anyone in business, particularly small to medium sized businesses, must be aware of the fact that there is always likely to waste in the business. And as you pointed out, I mean, very often it starts with money. We're afraid that we might be wasting money, and in many cases we are. Kevin: Sure. David: But for most businesses who are reasonably run well, that's usually not the biggest thing. Kevin: What would you say is the biggest thing, or can you give me like your top three? David: Okay, sure. Yeah. I think for most of us it probably starts with time. Kevin: Yeah. David: Because the time that we waste is something that we can never get back. I think I heard Brian Tracy say this years ago. If you lose money, you can always make more, but if you run out of time, that's it. All the money in the world won't help you. That's pretty much how it went. Kevin: Yeah. I mean, there's no going back. So far they haven't figured out a way. David: No. We have not figured out a way to do that. So when we look at our days, weeks or even hours, we look at things like meetings. Are our meetings productive? Are our processes organized or disorganized? What are the distractions like during the course of a day? Because when we're focusing on one thing and then we're distracted and we have to switch back and forth, it requires flipping the switches in our brains and getting ourselves adjusted to the new thing that we're thinking about. All of those things consume time, which is, in many cases, even worse than money when we start wasting it. Kevin: You brought up a good one, meetings. And I think that's something, especially in this day and age of Zoom calls and all that stuff. I have a lot of friends who are in the corporate world or in the business world, and they talk about the needless meetings, the constant need for them, for people to feel like you got to get the crew together. Why are small businesses and medium sized businesses so focused on that and how can they like pull back? David: Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are some people who just feel like it's necessary. I think there are some business owners, some managers who feel like their presence in everyone's day-to-day life is critical Kevin: Right. David: And that's true more of some people than others. Some employees are happy to be able to just do their own thing and get everything done. Others do need more interaction. So it is an individual kind of thing. I think most business owners have to take a look at that and say, how much of me do they need? How much of their sales managers do they need? But being aware of the fact that each time we force everyone to get together, the clock is running. The clock's running on everyone. And when you have a bunch of people on one meeting, that means that all those people are tied up for that period of time. And if it's not productive for everyone on that meeting or in that meeting,

Kirby: "I always thought we'd be friends forever."Kevin: "Yeah, well forever got a lot shorter all of a sudden."Despite popular belief, the Brack Pack wasn't established with a John Hughes movie, but instead in the wake of a film about recent college graduates struggling to adjust to adulthood called ST. ELMO'S FIRE. Over the past 40 years, the film has been declared "one of the worst films ever made," despite a star-studded cast of all-time greats, including Academy Award-nominee, Demi Moore. Does the movie deserve the hate? What does the Brat Pack obsession say about us as a culture? The Wives Colangelo are diving deep into the 1980s to talk about a movie they weren't alive to see during its debut, and trying to make sense of how this movie and those who made it would change pop culture forever.---Become a Patron!https://www.patreon.com/thisendsatprom----Donate to The Okra Projecthttps://www.theokraproject.com/----Article ReferencedI Don't Think One 1985 Brat Pack Movie Deserves The Unfair Hate It Gets: https://screenrant.com/st-elmos-fire-criticism-reviews-negative-wrong/St. Elmo's Fire Might Be the Worst Movie Ever: https://consequence.net/2015/06/worst-movie-ever-st-elmos-fire/----Follow the Show: @ThisEndsAtPromBJ Colangelo: @BJColangeloHarmony Colangelo: @Veloci_trap_tor / @HarmonyColangelo on Bluesky----------Logo Design: Haley Doodles @HaleyDoodleDoTheme Song: The Sonder Bombs 'Title': https://thesonderbombs.bandcamp.com/

Summary This episode of "Coping" centers on the idea of 'Blue Christmas,' exploring how the holiday season can be both joyful and sorrowful for many people. Kathy and Kevin discuss how grief and joy can coexist during the holidays, particularly for those experiencing loss or major life changes. Kevin shares a personal experience from 2020 working as a bedside chaplain during Covid, while Kathy discusses her preference for Thanksgiving over Christmas due to its focus on gratitude. The conversation includes recommendations for grief support resources, specifically mentioning David Kessler's holiday grief support and Grief Share's 'Surviving the Holidays' program. The episode concludes with a suggested ritual of hanging a blue ornament and shares Jan Richardson's 'Blessing for the Brokenhearted' poem. Highlights Introduction to Blue Christmas Concept The hosts introduce the concept of 'Blue Christmas,' acknowledging that while the holiday season is typically portrayed as joyful, it can be a time of deep sorrow for many. Speaker0 emphasizes that it's acceptable to feel both joy and sadness during the holidays, whether due to recent loss or general struggles. Personal Experiences with Blue Christmas Kevin shares his significant Blue Christmas experience from 2020 while working as a hospital chaplain during Covid, feeling disconnected from the holiday spirit. Kathy reflects on her preference for Thanksgiving over Christmas, noting how commercialization has affected the holiday's meaning. Support Resources and Coping Strategies The hosts discuss two major grief support resources: David Kessler's holiday grief support sessions and Grief Share's 'Surviving the Holidays' program. Kathy shares a success story about someone who found community through Grief Share, even leading to social activities like cruises with fellow group members. Closing Ritual and Poetic Reflection The episode concludes with Kevin suggesting a ritual of hanging a blue ornament on the Christmas tree to acknowledge sadness during the holidays. The hosts share Jan Richardson's 'Blessing for the Brokenhearted' poem, which explores themes of love, grief, and resilience. Kevin Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Today we're going to center around a powerful theme that speaks to many during this time of year. Kathy Yes, today we're going to be talking about the idea of a blue Christmas, and this acknowledges that while the holiday season is often portrayed as joyful and celebratory, for many it's a time of deep sorrow, reflection, and longing. Kevin All right, let's get started. Kevin So this concept of a blue Christmas reminds us that it's okay not to feel cheerful during the holidays, whether you've experienced a recent loss or a major life change this last year, or you just simply find yourself struggling. The idea of blue Christmas creates space for all of those feelings to exist without judgment. And I would even say to coexist that you can feel both joy and sadness in this time of year. What do you think about that, Kathy? Kathy Yes. I think that we often associate it with Elvis Presley's famous song, but the significance of this of course goes deeper and is felt more strongly depending on what your circumstances are. Churches and communities sometimes hold blue Christmas services as a way to honor grief and create a sacred space for those who need it. Kevin Yeah, and you know, whether you are part of a faith community or have your own faith practices at home, these types of rituals often feature quiet reflection, soft lighting, and even specific practices that can validate feelings of sadness, but are intended to offer some hope and comfort in that sense of community and in those rituals that are offered. And again, they just remind us that grief and joy can coexist. And I think this is an often misconception of grief in general, that the experience of grief happens only one stage at a time, it's like it's a linear experience. And those of you that have been through grief know that the reality is you can feel many emotions within one day and within one moment even. And so this time of year can bring up all of those emotions, perhaps not just joy, perhaps not just sadness, but a good mix of both. Kathy You know, we talk about a season that's supposed to be merry and bright. But like you mentioned, sometimes there's a mix of different things that occur in happy or celebratory times for us. It's that bittersweet that we talk about. Have you ever had a blue Christmas? Kevin That's such a good question. I don't think that there is one year in particular that was more blue than others. Well, you know, actually, now that I think of it, I think 2020 is perhaps the pinnacle blue Christmas for me. Kathy Sure, sure. Kevin At that time, I was working as a bedside chaplain at a hospital that was overrun with Covid, like many were. And it was the first year that I felt like it wasn't Christmas, that the season really had no meaning. And I felt disconnected from some of the decorations I saw up and around, some of the attire that folks were wearing, like Christmas hats and red. It just felt so far from the reality of what I was experiencing each day that I didn't know how to feel merry and bright and filled with joy and celebration in that year. And so I think that was the year that was a blue Christmas because it was like a non-existent Christmas. The spirit of the season was just so absent for me. What about for you? Kathy I don't know if I could think of an actual blue Christmas, but there have definitely been Christmases that have been hard and heavy for certain, where it didn't feel like that everything, it didn't match the moment of what the season is supposed to be. But I mean, I think the truth of the true story of Christmas is also the same. We just have commercialized it to, with the Hallmark movies and all of the trappings of Christmas, especially here in this country, which is why it's not my favorite holiday, admittedly. It's why I like Thanksgiving because it's back to the --Thanksgiving focuses more on gratitude and family and meaningful things. And so-- Kevin You bring up such a great point about how, you know, if you're listening today and you don't have a specific loss that you've had this year or perhaps you can't even think of a major loss in your life, a blue Christmas can still be an experience that you're you're having and it may just be all of those little losses that we carry with us in our lives and the hardships that shape us through year after year and perhaps you're not even sure why you feel a little bit of that tinge of sadness and the invitation from this idea of blue Christmas isn't to to invite all of those authentic feelings that you're feeling this time of year and allow whatever color your spirit is right now that it's okay to feel those feelings in the midst of seeing decorations go up and celebrations go up that we each have to create space for that blue or create space for whatever other color our spirit is this season Kathy Yes, exactly. And there are some wonderful resources that can help guide us through the process of navigating grief through the holidays. The first resource we'd like to highlight is Holiday Grief Support with David Kessler. And some of you may know David is one of the world's foremost experts on grief. His free holiday sessions offer practical strategies to help you honor your loved ones and find meaning during this challenging time. Kevin So, David Kessler is a resource that we reference a lot here on this podcast, and I think what's really special about David's work and his approach is that he focuses on finding a balance between grief that is real and present, but also the season that calls for celebration. And he talks about creating new traditions that can honor the past while also embracing the present and still what is to come. And so I just endorse this holiday grief support group and resources that David Kessler and his team offers. And there's a second resource that is also really beneficial any time of year, but especially now. There's a grief support group called Grief Share, and they have a specific gathering and resources called Surviving the Holidays. Again, recognizing this idea that the holidays can be merry and bright, but also filled with sadness. And so their program offers workshops. They also have some specifically designed steps that you can take, strategies to navigate all of the complexities of the season and all the emotions that come. Kathy Yes, I've known quite a few people who have benefited from Grief Share in our community. Two of the things that -- two of their offerings that are particularly important: one is that they do offer seasonal holiday "coping with the holiday" type workshops, which I think is the importance of planning ahead for when you might be missing your loved one or you're facing a loss, whatever that may be. And then the second thing about Grief Share is that they exist with ongoing groups. And I personally know someone who lost their wife and grief share literally saved his life because he's able to connect with this community. Last I heard he was going on a cruise with his Grief Share people. So it just really was a place for him to find connection and hope again. So we highly recommend Grief Share. Kevin And before we close today, we have a little bit of a homework assignment for you all. If you want to create space for a blue Christmas, I want to encourage you to hang a blue ornament on your Christmas tree somewhere. Whether it's front and center, whether it's off to the side, or just in the background that's at the top or towards the bottom, you find wherever the placement feels right. We want this ritual of hanging a blue ornament to symbolize you creating space for sadness this time of year. Kathy Before we close, we want to share a beautiful reflection that ties into the theme of A Blue Christmas. It's Jan Richardson's "Blessing for the Broken-Hearted" poem, which offers a powerful message about the resilience of love and grief. Kevin "A Blessing for the Broken-Hearted: by Jan Richardson. Let us agree for now that we will not say the breaking makes us stronger, or that it is better to have this pain than to have done without this love. Let us promise we will not tell ourselves time will heal the wound when every day our waking opens it anew. Perhaps, for now, it can be enough to simply marvel at the mystery of how a heart so broken can go on beating, as if it were made for precisely this, as if it knows the only cure for love is more of it, as if it sees the heart's sole remedy for breaking is to love still, as if it trusts that its own persistent pulse is the rhythm of a blessing we cannot begin to fathom, but will save us nonetheless. Amen.

Summary Kevin and Kathy discuss the concept of 'soul care' and practices to nurture one's soul. Their discussion explores the importance of solitude, silence, and stillness as means to connect with one's inner self and find peace amidst the distractions and noise of daily life. Interspersed are helpful personal anecdotes, practical tips, and a poem that encourages slowing down and appreciating the present moment. Kevin Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Coping. We took off a few weeks ago, giving you all a vacation and we also took a vacation ourselves. Kathy Yes, and we thought it was a great time to begin a new series we're calling Summer Soul Care. I wonder, Kevin, what comes to your mind when you think about soul care? Kevin Well, I work in a hospital, and our department is called the spiritual care department. So I actually spend a lot of time thinking about spiritual care, soul care, and how to do that effectively, especially for those who are sick and in the hospital setting. So the first thing that comes to mind for me is something that's active, to make sure that when you care for either your own soul or somebody else's soul, it's an action that you do, a practice that you take, something that you offer that's tangible. Kathy Hmm. Yeah, that's a good and easy, practical way to think about it. And especially as we're thinking about our souls, we can link it to something that we'll be doing. So let's get started. Kathy So one of our favorite podcasters and authors, her name is Ruth Haley Barton. She writes this quote, I really love this thought provoking quote. She says, "losing your soul is sort of like losing a credit card. You think it's in your wallet or purse, so you don't give it much thought until one day you reach for it and you can't find it. Kathy The minute you realize it's gone, you start scrambling to find it, trying to remember when you lost it or last used it or at least had it in your possession. No matter what is going on in your life, you have to stop and look for it because otherwise there could be major damage done. Kathy Some of us know that we are losing bits and pieces of our souls every day and we are scared to death that we might be very close to going over an edge." So as a chaplain, how have you experienced this with those you serve? Kevin Yeah, this is something I help patients wrestle with on a daily basis. The reality is most people don't give a lot of thought to their spiritual life, to their souls. It's only when we are sick, when we are ill and in pain, that we look for strength and often look inward for that strength to be able to push through and to cope with whatever we're going through. Kevin And so what happens, like that analogy that's so vivid and so true about the credit card, if you haven't been investing into that fund, you don't have the funds to tap into on that card and that soul, then you find yourself not being able to use it when you need it most. Kevin And, you know, my belief is that we never lose our soul, we never go to a point where we don't have it. But if we're not investing in it, then it's certainly not going to be valuable to us when we perhaps need it most. And so when we encounter somebody who has deficient funds on their card or in their spiritual life, it's a chaplain's job to come alongside them and to help them tap into their strengths in their life, to help them connect to their faith practices, their rituals, the things that give their life meaning so that they could begin to cope with their illness and then find a pathway to healing that encompasses not just their physical body, but their emotional, spiritual mental selves as well. Kathy Yes, that sounds very practical and helpful. And like you said, it often doesn't happen until the body begins shutting down. A part of ourselves is not working, that we then begin to think about that. Kevin For sure that's exactly it. Whenever one part of ourselves feels deficient we tap into the other parts of ourselves to find what we're missing. I wonder for you as a coach where do you see this in the lives of your students? Kathy Well, I think they're like most people not thinking about their souls, like they don't have time to or they don't know what that looks like or what that means. And so if there's no awareness about soul care and practices, then you can't move forward. You can't, like you said, you won't have anything to show in those times where you need it the most. And so today we want to discuss the first three S's of soul care in hopes of beginning this discussion. Kathy So the first S is solitude. And we're going to define solitude as uninterrupted alone time in a distraction free environment. Uninterrupted alone time in a distraction free environment. It's kind of a joke where we think, what? Which environment is distraction-free these days? But what are your thoughts on solitude and how do you think that we can find this in the busyness of our world? Kevin Yeah, what you pointed out in that definition is what stood out to me is the distraction free environment. I can't think of an environment that is distraction free. Likewise, we fill our lives with a lot of positive distractions as well, friends, family, hobbies, things that we like to do. Kevin But solitude is that practice that we are intentionally letting go of those things that keep us busy, that keep us distracted from what's actually going on inside. And it becomes the way that we cope with our pain and our lives being the way that they are so hectic and crazy is by continually moving from one thing to the next to keep our mind busy so it's not flooded with those deeper, harder feelings that are conjuring inside. And so it's definitely a hard one. But something that comes to mind is the need to sacrifice something to find that solitude often will require saying no to things or to people and creating that intentional space for that solitude. Kathy And in our community, what we talk about that might be helpful is to actually schedule in times of solitude. One homework assignment – and our listeners can do this – this week is to schedule a soul date for themselves where they can enter into the solitude. I would say that doesn't have to be long. It can be 20 minutes. It doesn't have to be, oh, I don't have an entire day. It can be a short period of time. It could be 20 minutes. And the best thing about entering into solitude, the best benefit we have from solitude is that it allows us after we've been in solitude to be more present. Kevin And that leads us well into our next S of soul care, is silence. And so we define silence as abstaining from speaking, reading and noise in order to be quiet. Gosh, I'm thinking about how noisy my work is, how noisy the world is, the freeways are, the news is, my phone can be, gosh, Kathy, how do we find silence in this day and age? Kathy Another good question, the first thing I would say is I think everyone needs to stop and think about how they feel about silence. Does it make you nervous if things are too quiet? Are we okay with there being no noise or background music or background TV? We turn on all of these things to avoid the silence, so I think it's important to have a little conversation with ourselves to determine how we feel about the silence, and if we're giving ourselves permission to enter the silence, then silence practices will be beneficial to us. Kevin That's so true. And I think just from personal experience, learning to be comfortable with silence. For most people, I think they're adverse to being in silence because the silence isn't silent. When you're starting off trying to be silent, that's where all the noise comes up with your thoughts, your feelings, all of those fears and concerns, the worries, the to-do list, everything starts to rush in when you create that space and that silence. And so if you find yourself struggling to find that silence, even when you're being intentional about it, my encouragement is to keep trying. Kevin Keep creating that space for silence. You can keep a pad of paper next to you so that if thoughts and things that you need to remember flood in in those moments of silence, write them down and then move back to your silent place again. It's so important that we continue to practice silence, knowing that it's a hard thing to do and continue to go back to it again and again because after we move through all of that noise that floods in when we are silent, on the other side of that is that peaceful silence that I think that we're all craving. Kathy 100% true. And yeah, the notebook is a really good idea. And then if you like to be active when you're trying to enter the silence, this is one that I do often is you can go on a walk without any music. But what you can do is listen to the sounds that you hear on your walk. You can start counting them. You can start cataloging them. Really what you are doing is you are entering silence, even though it sounds like you're not because you're hearing noises, but you're allowing the natural sounds to enter in instead of what we typically have are the distracted noises of the world entering in. Kathy So if you're going on this walk, it's a very good way. Maybe it's like a bridge to entering silent places. This is like a really good way to do it as well. And the main benefit from entering into silence when you do these practices is that then we're actually attuning our ears to listen. Kevin And attuning our ears to listen to self, all of those things that we push down and we're moving away from, those difficult feelings and thoughts. But when we learn to listen to self, we then are better able to listen to others and what their experiences are and be present to them in their pain and their story. And that leads us into our last S for this episode. And our third S is stillness. How are we defining stillness? Kathy Stillness is defined as "to stop, cease, desist, and disconnect from the outside world". Kevin Man, these are getting harder and harder, aren't they? They seem to also be building on one another. How do we get to this third S of stillness? Kathy Well, there's I think something that's been the theme of our discussion today is that there needs to be a lot of intentionality around this practice. So believe it or not, you may or may not know about this feature on your phone. It's called Do Not Disturb. And guess what? We can turn it on. And one practice that you can do is to turn it on on your phone for an hour a day. Put on Do Not Disturb on your phone and allow the stillness to come in as you disconnect. Kathy It doesn't mean that you're just going to be still during that time, but you're disconnecting from that usual hustle, bustle, chaos, noise. You could do something else in the stillness. It's not that you have to sit still. Notice that's not what we said. But the major benefit from entering into stillness is that we can become better engaged after being still. Kathy So out of these three, solitude, silence, or stillness, which one do you think is easiest for you? Kevin Gosh. I've had a lot of practice with silence, learning to be silent, and to tune into that silence. So I think that that's probably the one that's easiest for me. It's the hardest to find, but when it's there, I feel very comfortable with it, if that makes sense. What about for you? Kathy Uh, the easiest, and again, these aren't easy, but they come more naturally if you keep practicing, um, I would say is solitude because I really now look forward to times when nobody is at home, like, um, I think it was an hour today of no one being here so that I can enter into the solitude. Kevin Right. And which one's difficult for you? Kathy I think stillness is still hard for me. I'm the one telling you to put on do not disturb. The reason is, is I am such a breaking news type of person that, and especially these days, we've had a lot of breaking news that has been very important to our world that I don't want to miss out. It's the FOMO, that's terrible. But like, you're gonna miss out on hearing something or a text message or someone was trying to call you, but in the days when we didn't have technology, we all just waited. Kathy I lived during that time period. It was totally fine that we didn't find out for three hours about the breaking news or whatever it was, nothing happened. And it was actually all better because then we were all more, we weren't on this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, nonstop, chaotic, stressful rollercoaster of what we all are living on right now. Kevin And so to end our podcast today, we'd like to invite everybody to take a moment to do their own soul check-in. And so I'm going to hand it over to Kathy, who will lead us through that. Kathy Yes, I just invite you now to think about the words of this poem and check in with your soul. It is called "On Time" and it's by Ruth Haley Barton. There have to be times in your life when you move slow. Times when you walk rather than run, settling into each step. There have to be times when you stop and gaze admiredly at loved ones, marveling that they have been given to you for this life. Times when hugs linger and kisses are real. When food and drink are savored with gratitude and humility, rather than gulp down on your way to something else. There have to be times when you read for the sheer pleasure of it, marveling at the beauty of words and endless creativity in putting them together. Times when you settle into the comforts of home and become human once again. There have to be times when you light a candle and find the tender place inside you that loves or sorrows or sings and you pray from that place. Times when you let yourself feel, when you allow the tears to come rather than blinking them back because you don't have time to cry. There have to be times to sink into the soft body of yourself and love what you love simply because love itself is a grace. Times when you sit with gratitude for the good gifts of your life that get lost and forgotten in the rush of things. Times to celebrate and play, to roll down hills, to splash in water or make leaf piles, to spread paint on paper or walls or each other. There have to be times to sit and wait for the fullness of God that replenishes body, mind and soul. If you can even stand to be so full, there has to be time for the fullness of time or time is meaningless.

New York international arbitration partner J.P. Duffy discusses the Singapore International Arbitration Centre's (SIAC) current accomplishments and future plans for the Americas with SIAC's registrar, Kevin Nash, and SIAC's director and head of the Americas, Adriana Uson. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Hello and welcome to Arbitral Insights, a podcast series brought to you by our International Arbitration Practice lawyers here at Reed Smith. I'm Peter Rosher, Global Head of Reed Smith's International Arbitration Practice. I hope you enjoy the industry commentary, insights, and anecdotes we share with you in the course of this series, wherever in the world you are. If you have any questions about any of the topics discussed, please do contact our speakers. And with that, let's get started.  J.P.: Welcome back to the next episode of Arbitral Insights, in which we'll discuss the Singapore International Arbitration Center's America Initiative with Kevin Nash, who is SIAC's registrar, and Adriana Uson, who is the SIAC's director and head for the Americas. Let me begin by introducing myself. I'm J.P. Duffy. I'm an international arbitration partner based in New York that acts as both counsel and arbitrator in international arbitration seated around the the world under a variety of governing laws and arbitral rules. I'm qualified in New York, England and Wales, and the DIFC courts in Dubai, where I previously practiced. I routinely represent clients in arbitrations involving India, the GCC, and East Asia, and I also had the good fortune to be listed on the SIAC arbitrator roster. As I mentioned, with me today is, first, Kevin Nash. Kevin is a Canadian lawyer and the SIAC's Registrar. As Registrar, Kevin leads the 25-member SIAC Secretariat in the provision of case management services. Over the course of the past decade, Kevin has overseen the administration of thousands of international cases under all versions of the SIAC and UNCITRAL rules. Under the Singapore International Arbitration Act 1994, Kevin is also gazetted as an appointing authority, serves as the statutory taxation authority, and is empowered to authenticate and certify awards and arbitration agreements. And last but not least is Adriana Uson. Adriana Uson is the director and head of the Americas for the SIAC, where she leads and oversees SIAC's activities in North and Latin America. In 2020, Adriana established the SIAC's first office outside of Asia in New York. She has more than a decade of experience in dispute resolution and and has served as counsel on international arbitrations, as arbitrator, and as the institutional representative. Adriana first joined SIAC as counsel, during which time she administered hundreds of cases across a range of seats and governing laws. She was also involved in the drafting of the SIAC Rules 2016 draft, SIAC Investment Arbitration Rules 2017, and the SIAC Practice Note on Third-Party Funding. Prior to rejoining the SIAC, Adriana was a disputes lawyer at a global law firm where she advised and represented clients in international arbitrations conducted under the auspices of the SIAC, the ICC, ICSID, and the HKIAC. So as you can tell, we have a wealth of knowledge with us today, and we're really, really fortunate to have both Kevin and Adriana with us today. So with that, let's jump right in and hear from our guests. So let me just set the stage a bit by giving some of the SIAC background, and then we'll have Kevin and Adriana chime in on that a bit. So the SIAC is a not-for-profit arbitral administrator that was established in 1994 in Singapore with the objective of providing a neutral, efficient, and reliable dispute resolution institution in Asia. Kevin, can you give us a bit of background on what's gone on with the SIAC over the last 33 years, I guess.  Kevin: Sure. Thanks, J.P. It's great to be here. Thank you to you and to Reed Smith. I'm actually a listener to this podcast, so it's really good to be here. Giving a bit of background, 33 years of operation, SIAC started as functionally a regional center, and you can really see a very compelling growth trajectory. The real proper administration of SIAC's cases started in 2007. You can then see sets of rules in 2010, 2013, 2016. And now we're in the draft public consultation for the seventh edition of the SIAC rules. Along the way, we went in the Queen Mary University of London White and Case Survey is the second most preferred arbitral institution in the world and the most preferred in Asia. And that's really what has helped bring SIAC to global prominence, that we have this expertise in Asia, but we also have parties from all around the world.  J.P.: That's great. And it has been meteoric growth. It's been really impressive to watch. The SIAC didn't exist, as you say, when I first started practicing, and now it's almost default in Asia, if not the default for most parties. And let's talk about that growth outside of Asia a bit. So while the SIAC began in Singapore and has had a lot of acceptance in Asian markets, it is not simply an Asian administrator, as you say. It's really accepted around the globe. What's really been the Singapore secret to that, Kevin?  Kevin: I suppose that's the million-dollar question, or when you look at some of SIAC's cases, is the $7 billion or $10 billion question, is what does Singapore and SIAC have been able to do to put itself at the forefront of international arbitration? When I look at the Singapore arbitration ecosystem, I see language from decisions like the rule of law is applied without fear or favor, and there is an unequivocal judicial philosophy of the facilitation and promotion of arbitration. So it's really the entire ecosystem in Singapore that has helped build up SIAC. One of the most important moments, and Adriana and I were quite involved in this, was in the SIAC rules 2016. Previously, it used to be a default Singapore seat of arbitration. So unless the parties otherwise agreed, if it was left silent, then it would default to a Singapore seat. But because of the popularity in the Americas, the then President Gary Bourne knew that for us to really grow as a global institution, that had to be left to the parties or to the tribunal to decide. So we've got the benefit of the Singapore ecosystem. So you have a very pro-arbitration bench. You have all of the hardware and software, modern legislation based on the UNCITRAL model law. And to a certain degree, it's based on where we are in the world. Singapore, much like New York, is an international center for finance. Singapore has that reputation of effectively being Switzerland in Southeast Asia. And maybe you just can almost encapsulate it by putting out a question that if you were a significant U.S. Entity, would you be comfortable being a moving claimant against a very prominent Singapore respondent? And I think that the answer is overwhelmingly yes. Parties know that they're going to get a fair adjudication of their dispute when they come to Singapore, and certainly when they file a case at SIAC. When I look at that 25 member SIAC secretariat, I am quite moved by the fact that we only have one Singaporean lawyer. So the rest of the Singapore SIAC secretariat are all lawyers qualified in 13 jurisdictions around the world. So I think that gives parties the confidence.  J.P.: Now, Kevin, where are some of those lawyers qualified in the secretariat?  Kevin: You know, I would have to run through the jurisdictions, India, Indonesia, United States, UK, Vietnam, Ecuador, Georgia. I feel like I'm missing a few, Canada, Malaysia. So anywhere in the world where we have our top jurisdictions and particularly where we have those applicable laws at play, we really need to have a lawyer in the secretariat qualified in those jurisdictions. I can think of five years ago in Vietnam, a very fast-growing jurisdiction, because there's a lot of procedural nuances in that jurisdiction, surely we need to have a Vietnamese qualified lawyer. China, we have a fair amount of Chinese language arbitration, so we need to have Chinese qualified counsel. And certainly, we have so many cases involving Indian parties, so we have three Indian qualified lawyers in the secretariat as well.  J.P.: Well, that certainly gives a good overview of the breadth that the SIAC covers. And I think just to reinforce that a bit, let's talk about some of the offices that the SIAC has outside of Singapore before we get to the one in New York. So, am I correct that in 2013, SIAC opened up its first overseas office in Mumbai and then Seoul? Is that right? Seoul, Korea?  Kevin: That's right.  J.P.: And then in 2016, SIAC opened up in Shanghai, correct?  Kevin: Yep.  J.P.: And then in 2017, SIAC opened up a second office in Gujarat in India, right?  Kevin: Also correct, yeah.  J.P.: Now, what was the impetus for opening all those offices?  Kevin: Really, it's to have a presence on the ground. So one thing that we do very well at SIAC is have a lot of analytics looking at economic indicators. We're looking at both sides of the contract. So you're seeing where, for instance, Indian parties, where those inflows and outflows of economic activity is happening. And I think that it matters to users to have a presence on the ground. I can see with the incredible amount of interest that we have in the Americas with Adriana on the ground here. So whether it's being able to call and say that you're filing a notice, I'm starting to think that notwithstanding the fact that I'm the Registrar, that more American users are actually liaising with Adriana. In fact, we had a purely European dispute where they were calling Adriana to say, hey, we filed a notice. So I think that it's made a difference to have that on the ground presence. And we're looking at perhaps a few other offices that are going to be opened up in the reasonably near future. I think what's important for the Americas and one thing that I've talked about publicly quite a bit is potentially that move to setting up a case management office in New York.  J.P.: Interesting. Well, let's talk about that New York office then. So now, Adriana, you opened up the New York, the SIAC New York office in December of 2020, correct?  Adriana: Yeah, that's correct, J.P.  J.P.: That's a challenging timing. How did you find that process?  Adriana: Oh, that was really a very challenging time. I think that was the height of the pandemic, if I wasn't mistaken, back in 2020. And so what we did was really to leverage off technology, J.P. I think that's even the first time where we met was by Zoom. So what we've done is that we've used Zoom, we've used webinar to engage with our users. I remember that time I probably had a Zoom meeting every single day for over a year or even two years. And really, the challenge was creating that rapport and that relationship to deepen those relationships during that time.  J.P.: Yeah, that was certainly a challenging time. And I do recall meeting for the first time by Zoom. Now, Adriana, does the New York office, I think Kevin just touched on this, but does Does the New York office administer cases as well?  Adriana: Not at the moment, J.P., but we're looking into the possibility of administering cases from our New York office to provide real-time access for our users in America. So that's something to watch out for.  J.P.: Good. Well, we'll keep a heads up for that one. Now, what then was the impetus for opening the New York office? What was its purpose when you decided to open it in December of 2020?  Adriana: I think really, J.P., it's because of the growing number of American parties that we have been seeing in our docket. So every single year for the last 13 years, American parties actually ranked amongst our top five users. And there are certain years where you'll see that American parties would even rank number one amongst our foreign users ahead of China and India, which is saying a lot. And that is without us even having any significant engagements in the US. So it was us ripe for us to open an office during that time. It just so happened that it happened right smack at the height of the pandemic. But apart from that, our relationships with the Americans or the US is quite strong. As you know, our immediate past president, Gary Bourne, is an American. Our current president, Lucy Reed, is also a New Yorker. The number three or sometimes fourth most appointed arbitrator by nationality with SIAC are Americans as well. We have American counsel qualified at the secretariat, and we've been really engaging with a lot of U.S. law firms in SIAC. So I think with all of these, it just made sense for us to open an office in New York.  J.P.: Yeah, I think it tends to give a lot of comfort to U.S. parties when they know they have a local contact that they can reach out to. And certainly that helps with with, you know, explaining to a US party, like, yeah, this is not this might be an international undertaking. But there's an office right here in New York. Here's Adriana, here's someone we can reach out to. Now with that, Adriana, what is your day to day look like in the New York office, if you don't mind sharing that with the audience?  Adriana: Oh, I mean, I wouldn't even know myself out my day would would go but typically it would be speaking with our stakeholders. So be it, you know, at a law firm or roundtable session with some corporates or lecturing in some universities. Mostly I'm traveling. So SIAC, New York office really covers from Canada all the way to Chile, including Caribbean, Central America. So then you'll find me in different parts of America. And I think that that's how it looks like at the moment.  J.P.: Yeah, I would imagine it's probably a pretty exciting and pretty action-packed day. Okay. Well, let me just transition a bit so that people in the audience can get a bit of a sense because we were talking about case administration and, you know, for instance, Kevin mentioned, you know, a purely European case in which people were reaching out to you. How many cases did SIAC administer in 2023?  Kevin: Yeah thanks, J.P. I should also say, reaching back to the past question that much of Adriana's day involves me reaching out to her, asking about US arbitrators, a filing that's coming in. But moving to the question, how many cases SIAC administered? So we had 663 cases in 2023. Our previous high had been more than a thousand cases. And this is really significant when you you think that we were starting from the place of two cases filed in 1991 when we first opened our doors. Unsurprisingly, both of those would have been ad hoc conversion cases. And you have some of these cases that might just be a few thousand dollars, two cases, some of the big major projects and giga projects in the mini billions. From a case management standpoint, what is critical for us, the independent and neutral SIAC secretariat, is you treat every case the same. Every case gets the same amount of care and attention. And that's what we've really tried to focus on when we've moved from a regional institution to a global institution. The idea of this accessibility, where we're still treating every case like it is the most important case on the docket. Counsel can reach out to us, certainly not ex parte, but can certainly reach out to us on matters of procedure, the same with arbitrators. And that's been really important to our growth. At any one time, we have more than a thousand active cases. And now in most years, we're getting more than 500 cases a year, which from an international caseload standpoint, really puts us at the top of the chart for arbitral institutions.  J.P.: Yeah, that's quite an impressive growth and impressive numbers. Now, are there particular industries that many of those cases come from, or are there particular industries that you see more cases come from? I'd just be interested to know.  Kevin: J.P., it really runs the gamut and our only limitation really is arbitrability. So you could have cases arising out of contracts, treaties, investment contracts, and it's a lot of mirroring with these economic corridors. So there's certainly a lot of international trade. I can remember during the pandemic, it felt like I was becoming an expert in the sale and purchase of masks. We had lots of those cases. We get some of the big construction and engineering cases, corporate, JV, maritime and shipping. Singapore has the second largest container port in the world. So we really want to be able to administer any kind of case with any type of law applying and increasingly in different languages of the arbitration.  J.P.: Well, that's interesting. It's unsurprising, I guess, that some of the caseload would follow economic trends. And it's also unsurprising that some of the cases would just follow what goes on in Singapore generally. Now, I think you mentioned earlier some of the top users for SIAC are China, India, the US. What countries were the top five users in 2023?  Kevin: In 2023, we had lots of cases from mainland China, Hong Kong, Americas, India. What I found very compelling in those 2023 statistics is that our fifth most frequent user was Emirati parties. And often we had Emirati parties on both sides of the contract. And it's really a hallmark of the flexibility of international arbitration. So you may have UAE parties on both sides. They may choose an onshore or offshore seat in the UAE. They may choose a Singapore seat. And then the rest of the top 10 and those users that are starting to really matter is really a balance between common law jurisdictions and civil law jurisdictions. And if you follow SIAC and if you chart SIAC, what we really try to do is give effect to both the common law tradition and the civil law tradition. What we have been seeing increasingly with US parties and in large part to the work of Adriana is some of those real chunky disputes are coming from the Americas. When you're looking at the highest summon dispute, the mean summon dispute, the median summon dispute, we are getting some of those very significant cases from the Americas.  J.P.: Well, that's really interesting. And before we move on to the Americas, I just want to hit on a couple of points. And I guess my first question is, are you seeing trends in where cases are coming from in countries? Like, for instance, you just mentioned the top five user being Emirati. Would that have been the case a few years ago as well, or is that a newer development?  Kevin: We've seen some signs of interest from Emirati parties and in MENA generally, but it is because of the amount of work. And it's almost like you can look at some of the fastest growing economies and some of those most dynamic economies, and then you will start to see SIAC's caseload increase. And as I mentioned earlier, what's important for us is to be able to market both sides of the contract and have the users have confidence on both sides of the contract. So a classic case involving the Americas might be a party from the U.S. And an Indian party, a party from the U.S. And an ASEAN party, and a party from the U.S. and a Chinese party. What place are both of those parties going to choose increasingly at Singapore and SIAC? J.P.: Yeah, that's great to hear and unsurprising, I guess. Now, are those transactions ones that would be, for instance, just global transactions, or are they ones that might have some sort of geographic center in Asia?  Kevin: One of my favorite disputes that we've had recently was a functionally domestic US dispute where there were parallel court proceedings in the Pacific Northwest. I was looking for an Asian nexus. I have still yet to find it. So most of these, I mean, I mean, obviously, arbitration is the preferred method to resolve cross-border disputes, but in the UAE, in the Americas, a lot of times in India, these are domestic disputes where they're choosing Singapore and SIAC. And J.P., you might remember that it took some time for the Indian Supreme Court to give clarification on whether two Indian parties could choose a foreign seat. That clarification has now arrived. But even before that, because of the power of Singapore as a seat and the trust and confidence into the SIAC, Indian parties were still using SIAC for functionally domestic disputes.  J.P.: Yeah, it's interesting because that has been the case for many, many years before the Indian Supreme Court clarified that, as you say, almost akin to the way that some Brazilian parties use other institutions as well as the SIAC for purely Brazilian domestic disputes. It's a vote of confidence in arbitration generally, I think, as well as the institution. Well, let's shift gears a bit and talk some more in a little more detail about the Americas. And Adriana, what, obviously, by opening an office here in New York, SIAC is targeting, you know, the US and New York in particular. But what other markets is SIAC targeting with its New York office?  Adriana: J.P., there's really a lot of ground to cover in terms of targets. And as a starting point, SIAC's choice to open our America's office in New York was important. And it was very consequential and sent a message about our future direction. As all of us who live in the city would be aware, New York is the epicenter of so many things. So international arbitration and legal services, banking and finance, international trade, retailing, media and advertising, and so many others. But our users come from all over the US and across various sectors. Let's see if I can recall all of them. So over the past five years, we have seen parties from California, Connecticut, Delaware. Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Massachusetts, Maryland, New Hampshire, I think New Jersey, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio. We've seen some from Texas, Virginia, and Washington, to name a few. We have been busy see deepening these relationships and engaging with the local arbitration communities, establishing partnerships such as with the Silicon Valley Arbitration and Mediation Center. But our New York office really covers the whole Americas from, like I said, from Canada to Chile. Latin America is especially exciting for us because of its increasing trade with Asia. Right now, we have cases coming from Belize, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador. We also have cases from Mexico, Panama, and Uruguay, and we are eager to further expand our reach in the Americas. In fact, one of the first few things we did, J.P., when we opened the Americas office was to enter into partnerships with local centers such as the Lima Chamber of Commerce, the Santiago Arbitration and Mediation Center, and the Quito Chamber of Commerce, to name a few. And we have been very active in the region since.  J.P.: That's really impressive. That's really impressive. And, you know, people, you know, think of the Americas and they, they sometimes think of a few large, a few large jurisdictions, but you're mentioning really a number of countries in the Americas that are seeing capital flows between, between their countries in Asia. Now, what are some of the, what are some of the largest, Latin American markets that you're seeing activity in at the moment, other than the ones, you know, I think you just mentioned a few, but are there others that you're seeing in particular as ones that are producing a lot of disputes?  Adriana: I would say there has been an uptick in our Mexican and Brazilian caseloads. Kevin, you've seen a lot of these cases coming in. I think there are queries coming in from Ecuador as well. That's an area that we're quite interested. In fact, we did hire an Ecuadorian counsel in our secretariat because of that.  J.P.: Impressive. How about jurisdictions like Argentina and Peru?  Adriana: Yeah, actually, Argentina and Peru, one of our main targets, especially Peru, I think in Peru, they've now mandated arbitration as part of their law for public contracts. There's a lot of arbitration going on in Peru. And just before actually this podcast, I was on a webinar for the Peruvian Institute. So we are very active in Peru as well.  J.P.: That's great. I would assume Colombia is an important market as well. well?  Adriana: Yes, absolutely. Colombia, Panama, because of the Asian trade, that's also a very important market for us.  J.P.: Interesting. And are you seeing disputes come out of issues involving the canal in Panama?  Kevin: We actually have J.P. And I should say, because Adriana has been in this role for, is it three years?  Adriana: Yeah.  Kevin: In or around. There is that sort of timeline when SIAC clauses go into contracts and when you get the eventual dispute. And we have very strong indicators for many of those jurisdictions that you named that some significant entities are starting to use SIAC as their preferred dispute resolution choice. And that's one of the challenges of marketing an institution because you actually don't want parties to go to dispute. You hope that that they don't have to go to an arbitration, but that they have confidence to use SIAC arbitration clauses. So we're just as happy when we know if it's an entity from Panama, Peru, Argentina, as the case may be, that they're starting to use SIAC clauses. And whether or not that goes to a dispute, hopefully it doesn't. Maybe they're able to settle on their disputes or because of the confidence in SIAC as an institution, the parties tend to keep to their bargains because they know if they go to arbitration, it's likely going to be very fast and very cost effective for the counterparty.  J.P.: Yeah, well, that is certainly the case. I think we all always hope when we're drafting arbitration clauses that they never get invoked. But, you know, it's certainly my experience, at least, that, you know, 15 to 20% of those will end up at a certain point in time in arbitration. And so it's good to see that SIAC clauses are being written. And I know certainly clients that we have are extremely interested in that. And not simply when there's any sort of, you know, Asian nexus. It can be just about anything at this point. Well, that raises a really good question, which is, what would you say, Adriana and Kevin, have been the biggest accomplishments that SIAC has had in the Americas since opening? I mean, it's been a really challenging time, but you've obviously put SIAC on the map even more so in the Americas. So what would you see as the biggest accomplishment in the last, I guess, three or four years?  Kevin: J.P., I might just start and then I'll pass it over to Adriana. So the joke that I always make internally about Adriana setting up the New York office is that she effectively came here with a paperclip and ended up bartering her way into having a very well-running office. So certainly that was a challenge for Adriana coming all the way from Singapore and being able to set up this vibrant office that is doing some really interesting things. Effectively just with a paperclip and bordering her way and navigating New York City to get this office up and running. But I'll pass it over to Adriana.  Adriana: Thanks, Kevin. I guess aside from what Kevin just said, I would say getting new users from new jurisdictions would be one of our biggest accomplishments, J.P. Since opening the New York office in December 2020, we have gained new users from places like Argentina with the first ever case from that jurisdiction filed just last year and Colombia, which we spoke about. What's interesting about the case involving Colombia is that the counterparty is from Switzerland, showing the potential for cases in the Americas with no Asian nexus. We're also seeing a rising trend in cases from Panama. I think we've touched on that earlier. And more and more of our clauses are also making their way into contracts across Latin America. Just yesterday, we received an email from a firm in Guayaquil and Quito informing forming us, they've included SIAC clauses across a suite of contracts. A Spanish law firm with Latin American clients recently also indicated they're trying SIAC, including us in contracts for the first time. Peru, like. I mentioned earlier, a Peruvian law firm also told us that they're currently handling a contract with an SIAC clause for the first time. So this could be SIAC's first Peruvian case if the clause is activated. There was also a prominent U.S. entertainment company that requested information on SIAC as it considers switching from U.S. arbitral centers to SIAC. And speaking on the U.S., we've seen a rise in filings since the launch of our New York office. Another notable trend is that But while SIAC is often chosen when Asian parties are involved in, you know, repeating what Kevin just said, we're now handling cases between American parties or between Americans and Europeans without any Singapore-Asian connection. And I think this trend really highlights SIAC's growing international reach and reputation.  J.P.: Well, that is certainly impressive meteoric growth. And, you know, it's an old, it's a trite old song lyric, but the song lyric that if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere really is true. And you certainly have. Let me ask then just a concluding question for you, Adriana. And obviously, Kevin, you should feel free to jump in as well. But where would you like to see the New York SIAC office in, say, five years? What would you think that looks like?  Adriana: I think in the next five years, we see SIAC becoming a major player in the arbitration landscape across the Americas. We're focused on establishing a strong presence and building solid relationships with businesses, legal professionals, and arbitration practitioners throughout North and South America.  J.P.: Good. Kevin, anything you want to add there?  Kevin: Maybe just that it almost goes to the mandate of an institution, is what is an institution really there for? And I think that we believe that we are there to promote the advantages of international arbitration and to really be a contributor. And that's what we've tried to be with the America's Office in New York, is to be a part of the international arbitration community. And one thing that I would say about where we want to be in five years or 10 years is from a case management standpoint, we just want to keep getting better and better. Arbitration is not like it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. You have to be fast, thoughtful, precise. The case management matters. And that's what we focus on. And we're going to continue to listen to our users and try to be updating ourselves for 2024 beyond.  J.P.: Well, those are all good goals to have. And I think we'll keep our ear to the ground for future developments on things like case management and new rules. And I think I'll exercise my prerogative to reserve my right to call you guys back to discuss those things in the near future, because I think there's been such incredible growth and so many incredible developments, and I'm sure there'll be more to discuss again in the near future. But with that, I think we should conclude our discussion. And I want to thank you both. I want to thank our guests, Kevin Nash and Adriana Uson from the SIAC for offering their invaluable insights. And I want to thank you, the listeners, for tuning in. You should feel free to reach out to Reed Smith about today's podcast with any questions you might have. I'll take the initiative and speak for both Adriana and Kevin and say you should feel free to reach out to them as well about any questions you might have. We look forward to having you tune in for future episodes in the series. So thank you again to Adriana and Kevin, and we look forward to having you back.  Adriana: Thank you, J.P.  Kevin: Thank you.  Outro: Arbitral Insights is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. For more information about Reed Smith's global international arbitration practice, email arbitralinsights@reedsmith.com. To learn about the Reed Smith Arbitration Pricing Calculator, a first-of-its-kind mobile app that forecasts the costs of arbitration around the world, search Arbitration Pricing Calculator on reedsmith.com or download for free through the Apple and Google Play app stores. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple, Google Play, Stitcher, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved.

Summary This episode of “Coping” discusses the concept of courage and introduces seven daily acts of courage as outlined by Robert Staub in his TED Talk. Kevin and Kathy engage in a thoughtful dialogue exploring each of the seven acts and share personal experiences and insights on how these acts manifest in their lives as well as the importance of practicing courage daily. At the end, you'll be given the opportunity to rate yourself on each act of courage to determine your overall 'courage quotient'. Kevin Oh, hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of “Coping”. Kathy Yes, welcome back, everyone. Today, we want to continue our discussion on courage that we started our last podcast. And I have a question for you, Kevin: would you consider yourself a courageous person? Kevin Well, based on our last podcast episode conversation, I've been rethinking my definition of courage, the models and myths that I've developed over the years. I would say that I am a risk taker. I like to take risks, I like that feeling of taking a leap of faith, and then that leap being met with some success or improvement. So I don't know if I would say I'm courageous, but I definitely am open to taking calculated risks. And what about you? Do you consider yourself to be a courageous person? Kathy I think the same applies to if I consider myself to be a creative person. The answer is traditionally no. But I think that if I look into my life, I see lots of acts of courage and risk-taking. So others would say that about me. So I think this discussion today is really going to widen and round out our view of what courage looks like. So let's get started. Kathy So as you all know, in a recent spring retreat, I shared about this topic of courage. And I also introduced executive leadership coach speaker Robert Staub, who did a 2016 TED Talk called Daily Acts of Courage. And there he talks about how we can practice small acts every day to strengthen the courage of our hearts. It's such an interesting concept. And there are actually seven everyday acts of courage we can all engage in every single day to build up our courage. Kathy So the first act of courage is the courage to dream and express it. Do you have visions, goals, and dreams, Kevin? How's that for you? Kevin Yes, ever since a young age, I was a dreamer, had big plans for my life, envisioned my goals and went after them. I would say I erred on the side of dreaming and didn't always have a plan to accomplish those dreams and goals. In our relationship, I'm definitely the dreamer, but you're the person that helps make those dreams and goals become a reality. So that's why I think we partner well together. What about you? How do you express your dreaming and goal setting in your life, knowing that you're a very practical person? Kathy So I would say, and I often say to students, it's okay not to be a dreamer, not to have a dream, but what happens though is that we do have to have a plan for our lives moving forward. And if you look into my life, you see lots of dreaming, lots of ideas being carried out. There's two sources. We have to tap into the sources of where our dreaming can come from. For me, it has been my faith, where I actively am listening. That would be the number one source. And the second place is for the needs of those people I serve, I'm always dreaming for them. And that is how the dream comes true for me. I personally still to this day don't have any dreams, but if I dream for those that I'm helping and serving, there's lots. And I can then take steps toward that, courageous steps towards that. So it's very untraditional. Kevin Yeah, and I think that that leads us to the second act of courage, which is the courage to see current reality. This is something that I see you do particularly well, especially for the students that you work with. Do you have the ability to see the truth and not have blinders on? How do you have that unique and innate ability to see current reality? How do you do that? Kathy This is a really hard one, especially in light of how difficult our experiences are, the world around us, the reality, the harsh reality that we all are living in right now. I think first of all is that the ability to see reality is to admit truth to yourself, to be open to truth. I think it's a gift. I think discernment is a gift that we are given. So I've had that from a young age, the gift to see things as they are. But that doesn't mean that I wanted to always step into that. There was a period of time in my life where I shut my eyes to the harsh reality and I lived in a fantasy world and a dream-like state of like, oh, everyone's helpful, everyone's nice, everyone has my best interest at heart. Kathy I don't believe that any longer, sadly. But I know that now we live in a broken world, but we're here to help redeem the broken places. So that helps me to embrace the truth of things because only when we can see broken things as they are can we actually move in to try and come alongside to help fix, support, et cetera. Kevin Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kathy And what about you? Do you feel like you have the ability to see truth without the blinders on? Kevin I've had to learn how to do this. I think the practice of seeing current reality and accepting it and not getting lost in the dream world like you said, is a practice I've developed in my work as a chaplain with other people, especially those who are sick and in pain in the hospital, getting new diagnoses. There's a sacredness and the ability to be present to somebody in their story and in their pain and not try to silver line their difficult and challenging experience. And so to support somebody who is struggling is the ability to see them and their pain and not trying to fix it. So I've, I've practiced that quite a lot in my work and gotten pretty good at it. Even though it doesn't come as naturally to me. Kathy Yes. To sit in the present reality with them, which is very bleak at times. Kevin Right. Right. Kathy And you know, that leads us to the third act of courage, the courage to confront. You know, truth has a lot to do with courage. So first we're talking about the truth of acknowledging reality. And then the second part is the courage to confront. And this one, as we know, is especially difficult. One I've had to work on over the years to be able to not only see the truth, but then confront it when necessary. I would say that I'm okay at doing it. I just know it's part of leadership now. And it's just one of those things, skills that you can have. It doesn't ever make it any easier, I would say, but I do have that skill now in my tool bag, but it's still really hard. How about you? Kevin Yeah, I think that when I think about confrontation it makes me a little bit nervous. I don't like hurting other people's feelings. I care way too much about what people think about me, how they perceive me, and I want everybody to like me. And so confrontation is a hard practice when you care a lot about those things and for me a little bit too much about those things. But I've learned in my life that the most meaningful relationships, the most meaningful experiences, are the ones where I'm willing to speak the truth, to tell the truth to somebody, to endure confrontation, and to face things head-on. And so I don't like to be the one to initiate the confrontation, but if somebody has something they want to tell me about that I've done, something that I did or said and wasn't aware of, I want somebody to point it out to me because I don't want to be, you know, hurting other people's feelings or to be doing something that I haven't given a lot of thought to so, yeah, confrontation is hard, but I've I've learned that there can be some good that comes from healthy confrontation. Kathy Yes, that's actually the fourth act of courage that you're talking about. So the third one is the courage to confront and the fourth is the courage to be confronted. Kevin Yeah, I think I find this one to be much easier for me. What about for you? How do you feel about confronting and being confronted? Kathy Yeah, so again, I think both these areas have had to work on a lot as a two on the Enneagram -- helper -- I didn't like other people's perception of me and that was very hard. I was very sensitive as a young child to criticism, to people saying things. As I grew older I began to understand the value of standing up for truth. I am an advocate. So being able to confront others, but then also having to be confronted. It works both sides of the coin -- If we can confront we have to be able to be confronted. So it's hard But I would say again, it's something that I'm used to doing fairly often. I had someone do it this week about an experience that they had in one of our programs and they're like, "Oh, sorry to tell you this" and I was like, "No tell me. I really do want to hear because I desperately want to improve and for us to get better." Kevin Yeah, and that leaves us perfectly into our fifth act of courage and that's the courage to learn and to grow. And so like you just said, we're open to confrontation because you and I both share a value of always learning and always growing, being open to new ways of seeing things, new perspectives. We want to know those hard truths so that we can improve all of the ways of being in the world. Have you always been the kind of person courageous enough to always want to learn and grow? Kathy No, I'm not a risky person. I don't like change. I don't like risks. I don't like things changing, no. And I think that's surprising for people who see the outer view of me, because they're like, "You're always changing. You're always pivoting." And I'm like, yes, but I had to, again, step into that. And for me, it is faith. That's the core of it, that if I feel like it's a faith move, then I can step into learning and growing, because I know that my faith is empowering me and those around me. Kevin Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you say that you're not the kind of person that likes change and risk. I know that to be true about you, but I also see it as somebody that does want to always learn and always wants to grow and is always taking in new information, new perspectives and so I wonder if you could say a little bit more about how you wrestle with that tension in your own life. Kathy Yeah, I was gonna say that just like we talked in our last podcast about fear and courage existing in the same moment -- Is this the same, right? It's okay to not like risks. It's okay to not like change but know that all of the change and the growth and dreaming is necessary to move us forward to higher versions of ourselves, our callings our service and so if you're not wanting to do that. That's okay. I don't think I want to do it either. I would rather just stay home all day and watch my favorite Netflix shows and not take risks and not move forward. Yeah, like we all -- I want everyone to understand. like even people like us that you all see that are doing that, I personally, it's not my favorite. But again, it's about in the end you have to determine what kind of life do you want for yourself? If it's a life of stagnation or a life of growth and a life of growth involves work, investment, constant sowing and discipline. So whatever life you want, you know, if you want to live a courageous life, you have to put the work into it. So that's just the bottom line. You don't have to like it. I don't necessarily like it all the time, but I know that it's necessary. That's where the tension exists. Kevin So what's number six? What's the sixth act of courage? Kathy So you already mentioned this one, but this is one that's I think is really interesting. Staub says that the sixth act of courage -- courage is the ability to be vulnerable with others and living the truth of your story and also asking for help, being able to ask for help. You shared a little bit earlier about the vulnerable piece. What about you? Kevin Yeah, I love the correlation between living your truth but also asking for help. I have learned over the years that vulnerability comes naturally to those who have had a lot of hardship and challenges in their life. And so that pain is very present to me in all of my experiences, even when I'm having my most joyous moments, that sadness is lingering right there. When I'm sitting with people in their pain, I'm feeling my own resonance with that pain that they've had because of my own history of pain and loss. And so I think vulnerability is that ability to tap into my own experiences of pain and express some compassion for people who are experiencing that themselves. But true vulnerability is not suspended on its own. Kevin And so true vulnerability is coupled with good systems of support. When I'm just vulnerable, I'm just feeling pain and feeling the person's pain that I'm with. But the ability to show up courageously and to be vulnerable with somebody is recognizing that, yes, I do have my pain, but I'm also walking down a pathway of healing. And because I know that healing from that pain is possible, I can convey that to the person that I'm with. So vulnerability is not just a feeling. The courage of vulnerability is asking for help and having systems of support in place to support my pain so that I can support others who are in pain as well. Kathy It's interesting that you're talking about vulnerability isn't a feeling, it's an action because that leads us to the seventh act of courage, which is the courage to act. In the end, courage is not a word, it's not a feeling, it's not a label, it's an action. So if you have practiced the ability to step up and follow through in your life, then this is what he says: the seventh act of courage is the courage to act. Kevin And I love how each of the acts of courage build on one another and lead to action themselves. When we think about courageous people and how they're brave enough to make change in their lives, to take those leaps of faith, we can see it's not just one isolated decision, it's a series of decisions, a series of acts, if you will, that lead to even more action in their life. Kathy Yes, I love that he's built this bridge of courage for us in these seven acts, and they're so practical. I just have loved learning about this. And to sum up basically what we've done today, one of the quotes he says, he teaches, "small daily acts of courage can develop the cardiovascular system of your soul". Small daily acts of courage can develop the cardiovascular system of your soul. So I wonder today, how is your soul doing with regards to courage? We thought we would help you figure out your courage quotient today. Kathy We're going to review the seven acts. And what I would like you to do now, if you'd like to join us, you would grab a piece of paper. I'll let you do that. While you're grabbing your piece of paper, you want to number from one to seven. The one to seven is going to represent the seven daily acts of courage that we just talked about. So you're numbering your paper one to seven and then here's what we're going to do. When we talk about each act, I want you to think about on a scale of one to seven, one being the weakest, seven being the strongest, you're going to rate yourself to find your courage quotient. Kevin Number one, do you have vision, goals, and dreams? Then you may have the first act of courage, the courage to dream and to express it. Kathy So go ahead and rate yourself on the courage to dream. Kevin Number two, do you have the ability to see truth and not have blinders on? Then you may have the second act of courage, the courage to see reality. Kathy Rate yourself from one to seven on the ability to see truth. Kevin Number three, do you have the ability to speak up, speak truth to power and confront? Perhaps you have the third act of courage, the courage to confront. Kathy What's your score on the courage to confront? Write it down. Kevin Number four, maybe you are able to take critique and constructive criticism well. Then you may have the fourth act of courage, the courage to be confronted. Kathy Rate yourself on how well you can be confronted. Kevin Number five, are you able to step into the unknown and take risks? Then maybe you're able to exercise the fifth act of courage, the courage to learn and grow. Kathy How do you score on stepping into the unknown and taking risks? Kevin Number six, perhaps you have the ability to be vulnerable with others, tell the truth of your story, and also ask for help. This exercise is the sixth act of courage, the courage to be vulnerable. Kathy Rate your vulnerability score now. Kevin And number seven, maybe you have practiced the ability to step up and follow through. Then you are exercising the seventh act of courage, the courage to act. Kathy Rate your score for the seventh act of courage, the courage to act. So good job, everyone. What's your overall courage quotient? As you score yourself, which act of courage came easiest for you? And which one do you need some work on this week? Thanks so much for joining us for another episode of "Coping" and whatever you may be coping with, blessings to you.

Kathy and Kevin discuss the topic of courage and explore its true meaning beyond the common misconceptions. Reframing the perception of courage as not just physical bravery but as the ability to stay true to one's desires and walk one's own path despite fears or external pressures is important on your path to becoming healthy. Kathy Welcome back everyone for another episode of “Coping”. Kevin That's right. So today we're going to talk about a new topic, something that we just explored in a recent spring retreat that you led. Kathy Yes, our spring retreat was titled, Take Courage. Kevin That's right. So I wonder, what comes to mind when we think of courage? What does that word mean? Kathy That's a great question. What do you think? Kevin Well, when I think of courage, I think about somebody who faces their fears. I also think about gladiators in ancient Rome, folks who were fighting for survival and showing brute force and physical strength, sort of like the idea that comes to mind for me. Kathy Yeah, there's so much to explore with this topic of courage. Let's get started. Kathy So, as we mentioned, our topic today is courage. A recent retreat was Take Courage. And when I did some research exploring the root of the word courage, I found something really interesting. So, the Latin word from courage comes from the word 'core'. And the earliest forms of the word, you know, courage had a different definition than it does today. Courage actually meant to speak one's mind by telling all one's heart. Kevin Oh, fascinating. I did not know that. So I guess that begs the question, how is courage related to telling one's story or, as the quote says, to speak one's mind and telling their heart? How are those things related to telling your story? Kathy Sure. So what I think is that the true definition of courage has to do with the ability of us being vulnerable and authentic in the telling of our stories. Kevin Say more about what it means to speak your heart. Kathy So I would say that when we speak our hearts, we're listening to what the truths are that we hold dear. But what often happens is the noise of our world clouds that out, other people's expectations, us wanting to people please, us not wanting to let others down. We don't get to live our truth because of all of the noise and the anxiety surrounding what other people want for us. But when we get to the core of what we actually desire and care about is being able to speak our truths. Kevin Hmm. What I hear you saying is that speaking your heart is getting honest with yourself about what your desires are, your hopes, your dreams are, as opposed to all the expectations, all of the outward distractions and things that pull us one way or the other, but to stay true to our path where we want to go, where we feel like we're being led. Kathy Absolutely. Has that been a struggle for you? Kevin I've definitely struggled with that I am the type of person that people pleases and lives a life seeking out external affirmation and wanting to please others around me and seeking that validation from others but in the in the times where I feel most discontent it's the times that I'm seeking the most external validation and approval from others and in the times where I've been most satisfied or have been most confident or have made the hardest decisions in my life and the best ones are the times that I decided to stay true to my heart to speak my truth and to walk that path. Kathy Mm-hmm, and that is the essence of courage is what you're describing Kevin I have a feeling there's some myths around courage. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the misconceptions and the myths surrounding the idea of courage? Kathy Sure, so the first myth that we often hear is, "I don't feel courageous." Kevin Right. Kathy And I can think back to times in my own life when I did courageous acts and in the midst of it, wasn't feeling particularly courageous or brave or strong, but I was still moving forward into those actions which others would describe as courageous. I wonder, I know that you have had many courageous acts in your life. Were you feeling courage in those moments and spaces? Kevin Hmm, In the times where I was appearing in the world as most courageous were the times that I felt like I had no other option, that I had to do the brave thing because it was the only thing I was faced with an impossible circumstance and was left with no other choice but to be courageous, that I had to face some of the challenges in my life and take them head on. I don't know if it was courage in my traditional understanding of courage of being brave and facing my fears as much as it was looking internally to my heart and coming to terms with what I wanted for my life and seeking that. So I think the definition that you described today, I would say yeah, I was courageous, although I didn't feel courageous. Kathy And you're explaining really well the truth that can debunk this myth that you don't feel courageous is that courage is an action, not a feeling. And one of my favorite quotes about this comes from Sir Winston Churchill who said, "Fear is a reaction, courage is a decision." Kevin Hmm, that resonates with the times in my life where I needed courage the most. There was less about me feeling it was the right thing to do or feeling brave or feeling strong or courageous It was more about I just I have to I have to move forward and I don't feel confident in this decision, but I'm gonna move this way in faith and just trust that I'm doing the best that I can with what I have right now and then looking back seeing how courageous some of those actions were even though the feeling wasn't there. It's almost as if to say I didn't have the feeling but once I took the action the feeling followed. Kathy Yes, so you've unlocked one of the keys to courage is at that moment of decision between fear and courage, you acknowledged the fear, but you set it aside because in your heart of hearts, you wanted to choose the courageous thing. Kevin Yeah, and I think that that leads us to another myth about courage, and that courage is the absence of fear. I think that fear and courage actually can coexist within us. We are complex beings. We're not feeling just one distinct feeling at a time. It's often layers and layers of feelings. And this reminds me of the quote from one of our favorite authors, Brene Brown, who says it best. She says, "courage and fear are not mutually exclusive. Most of us feel brave and afraid at the exact same time." This has been so true in my life. What about for you? Kathy I love this quote. It's so freeing for all of us because that means that I don't have to not be afraid to be courageous. I just need to acknowledge the fear, set that aside and take the step of faith. So when you described in your life feeling like you had another choice. Well, you did have a choice: you had a choice to stay in fear but instead you took the step and that just shows that fear and courage are in the same spaces and we think we don't have a choice, but we always do. Kevin I would even go further and say that it wasn't even a matter of setting the fear aside or choosing courage over fear, some of the cliches in our society around being brave. I think it was more about choosing action in the face of fear, that I wasn't going to let the fear paralyze me and hold me back, that in the face of fear, and because of fear, I was going to move forward and find a way to a greater sense of peace, that doing nothing was part of what was contributing to my fear and being paralyzed. And I would much rather be moving forward in pain and struggle than to be locked in fear, which is, for me, just as painful as the thing that I don't want to do. Kathy Yeah, it's a great way to explain it and I think speaking of fear and paralysis of fear another myth that we often hear is, "well, I don't like taking risks". So, if you don't like taking risks, how does courage play into that? I myself don't like taking risks. Kevin Yeah, no, I know that you are risk-averse, you're very practical and wanting to slow down, be methodical. It's what makes us great partners because I am the opposite. I'm ready to take a risk that's going to help us to level up and to better our circumstances. But based on what we're talking about today, risk taking as it relates to courage is more about getting honest with those fears inside of us and the things that are holding us back. Kathy Yes, I think that that allows courage to become more accessible for us when we frame it in that way. And so the last myth that we want to address today is the "I don't know how to be courageous". In other words, I don't know what everyday courage looks like. What do you say to that? Kevin Yeah, I think just based on our conversation today, it's time that we reframe our understanding of courage and the images of people that we have being courageous. I have a feeling my definition of courage in the gladiator in the coliseum is not the best picture of what real courage looks like and has looked like in my life. Kevin And so if I have that image of courage, I have a feeling that many people have these gladiator images of courage, and we need to have a different understanding of what courage looks like. And so if we get honest with ourselves and what's happening internally inside of us, and that's courageous, maybe we just look to the mentors in our life, the friends in our life who have made hard decisions, who have overcome their own insecurities and have walked their own path. Kathy Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. We began our Spring retreat with talking about the models of courage and thinking about your family of origin, what did you see, what did courage look like for you growing up? Kathy I think it's a really important piece to living a courageous life every day. And another answer to the question of "I don't know what courage looks like every day" is this quote from Maya Angelou that she says, "you develop courage by doing courageous things, small things, but things that cost you some exertion." So the good news is that courage can be practiced. And it's just one small step at a time. And I think that can bring us all hope today. Kevin And so today we'll end our episode with a peaceful meditation by one of our newest Be Well coaches, Felice St. John. And so wherever you are today, we say blessings to you. Felice St. John Sitting comfortably or lying down with your eyes closed, let's begin by becoming aware of the breath. Breathing in slowly through your nose and out through your mouth. Just taking your time to connect with your breath and be with yourself throughout this meditation. Feel the breath as it enters with a cool feeling and then warming as it gently travels down into the lungs. Fill the lungs with a deep inhale, bringing in energy, vitality, connecting you back to source energy, the life force, God, the universe. As you exhale, feel the body releasing toxins and stress and any negativity that has accumulated in your body. Stay with this breath, focusing on the feeling of deep peace, deep inhalations and exhalations at your own pace. Keep with your breath as we continue. What are you holding on to that you need to let go of and release? Conjure an image for that. See it clearly and then let it go. Maybe it's a specific image or a color or a feeling. Maybe you want to gently take that image from your mind's eye and crumple it up and toss it away to the side. Or maybe it's an image in a cloud and you want to give a big deep exhalation and let that image just blow away. Feel the energy of release in your body and how that creates new space for a new image of where you are heading. See that image brightly and vividly in your mind. Become aware of the warmth and tingling of every cell in your body as you focus deeply on that new image, that new color. Feel it in your body. Look at that image in your mind's eye, focusing on it. Feel the energy that is in the extended environment in every part of nature and in every living thing that is working for you and for what you are creating space for. Bring all those energies together and feel them as one. Visualize all of that thriving energy shining brightly as the sun. Bring the shining glow of bright energy over the crown of your head. Let it hover there for a moment and then feel it starting to travel down into your body from the top of your head. Slowly going down into your face and neck, traveling down into the shoulders all the way down into your arms and down into your fingers. Feel that healing energy and light going down from your chest all the way down your back, your abdomen into your hips. Feel it continue traveling down your legs all the way down to your toes. Your whole body is now filled with divine healing light and energy, thriving energy. Allow that healing energy to completely fill any physical area that needs healing energy anywhere in your body. Feel it warming, healing and expanding through that area with a bright glow. Allow the healing light to bring peace and healing to any emotional issues or traumas. Let it fill the gaps where the old image took up space. Bring your awareness to any intentions or desires that you may have to your new image. Holding the thoughts of those intentions or desires as you allow the healing energy to bring your deepest desires to life and your intentions into reality. Feel your connection to divine energy and light and know that all is one. Stay with this deep, relaxing, peaceful feeling of bliss. Inhaling and exhaling slowly. Knowing that you are at peace and that you can tap into this peace anytime you need to, it is accessible to you. Take a few more deep breaths and when you are ready, you may slowly open your eyes and feel this deep sense of peace that you carry with you.

Kathy and Kevin discuss overcoming common blocks people face in sharing their personal stories and why every human story matters. They address common myths that our stories are boring or unimportant, fears of revisiting the past or reactions from others, and the healing power of vulnerability in finding connection and give listeners advice about why each story matters and how to start small by sharing with trusted individuals to begin integrating past and present into an evolving narrative arc. Author Leslie Carcamo discusses the transformative power of writing her memoir, “Walking in Healing”. Kevin: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Kathy: Yes, welcome everyone. Today we want to finish up our story theme as we dive into asking the question, "Does your story matter?" Kevin: "Does our story matter?" That's a great question. Let's get started. Kathy: So In our Story Journey this year we are learning about our story myths, origin stories and now writing our stories. So as every author knows, you know, we have to wrestle with what we call writer's block. And whether you're writing your story or telling your life story, there are these blocks that arise. So we know that there are around three reasons why we experience blocks and sharing our own stories, but really at the core is this question we're diving in today: Does my story matter? Kevin: Yeah, it's a really great question. In my work as a chaplain spending time with patients in a hospital setting, most of the work that I do centers around meaning-making which happens through conversation and delving into patient stories, their experience both before being diagnosed and now with a new onset illness or medical crisis that's going on in their life and Sometimes patients will conclude sharing their story by saying something like, "Well I know that others have it way worse than I do" or they'll say something like, "Well, I don't want to bore you with my story." So it's interesting. There are these blocks in sharing our own story and that question arising, "does my story matter and what is it mean in comparison to other people's stories who perhaps have it worse than I do or have different experiences than I do? What value does my story have? And why should I share my story with other people?" Kathy: Yes, I've heard all of those. And I've experienced that as well. I know that when I was younger, I would say, like, high school and college years, I thought my life story was super boring. I didn't have any drama or crisis, you know, I was basically the good girl. So I thought that was very uninteresting and nobody would care to hear that story. Yeah, I just thought, "who wants to hear my story? My story doesn't really matter." Kevin: Right. And of course, I know most of your story you describe yourself as the good girl growing up but then life happened. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about how your life and story unfolded? Kathy: Yes, so some of our listeners already know that in my late 30s that we experienced a family crisis and I think of course it wasn't boring any longer I couldn't say that but I was I'll admit that I was ashamed to tell my story for probably about 10 years because there was a lot of judgment from different places about my situation and my choices and I would say maybe within the last seven years -- which is very recent -- I have embraced my story and integrated into the person that you know me to be now. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Yeah that integration piece is such an important part of processing our stories making sense of the things that have happened to us and then finding a pathway forward right? It's a journey, as you said. Yeah so I know that you are in the middle of a Journey with a group of students who are exploring their stories writing their stories tell us a little bit about what you're learning in that group and some of the lessons that we can learn about the types of story blocks that we all can experience. Kathy: Yes it's an amazing Journey and it hasn't been easy just like our lives right? The book we have chosen is Leslie Leyland Fields' "Your Story Matters" and in that, because she's an author and writer herself and a writing coach, she talks about the obstacles like the writing blocks to sharing your story and the first one she talks about is the one I mentioned earlier about me that I experienced and it's the one that says "my life is uninteresting". My story doesn't matter because my life is uninteresting. And while that might be factually true, let's say you are, in your estimation, leading a boring or uninteresting life, one thing to remember is that all of our stories are human stories. So that means that someone out there can always benefit from your story. Kevin: And say a little bit more about that. Why is it that somebody else can benefit from that? Kathy: So in our class, for example, we had a writing prompt called, "How I Got to School Every Day". And when I proposed this, they were like, that's a one word answer, Kathy: , how I got to school every day. I was like, "okay, well tell the stories surrounding how you got to school when you were younger." Oh my goodness, it opened up so much rich storytelling. and connecting where people would say, "oh, I took the bus too, but my bus ride was different" or "I walked to school too". We all connected around how we got to school. It was amazing. Kevin: Yeah, so what you're saying basically is that because our stories are human, it creates a opportunity for connection because we're all human and sharing our story creates that human connection. That's awesome. I know you've shared with me about some of these other blocks and that second block that we can experience in sharing our own story is the fear of the past. So basically this is the fear where somebody could say something like, "I don't want my past to define me. I'm moving forward. I wanna focus on the future. And I don't know how to reconcile my past with my present and where I'm headed with my future." This is one that I've definitely wrestled with in my life. Having come through a lot of hardship and overcome a lot in my life. A lot of people that I encounter in my life now can't make sense of my past and where I've come from and the story that somebody like me failed my senior year of high school and was a terrible student. So I've had to do a lot of work in my life to reconcile where I've come from to where I am today and make sense of what I've overcome to be able to articulate that to others and sharing my story, but then also for myself that it feels like two different lives that I've lived. Kathy: And how would you say that what were some of the things you did to overcome the fear that your past could define you or that people would not understand? They couldn't reconcile the two. Kevin: I think I had to get honest with myself about what the purpose of telling my story was. I think for a while, I would share my past struggles as a way to get sympathy and empathy, as a way to help bring some soothing to the pain that I had. And then as I got older, I think I started to share parts of my story so that people would be impressed with me. And I think I'm still working on that now as I continue to get older and evolve and recognize that as I share my story, perhaps the most powerful thing I can do in sharing my story is share it so there's that connection that we just talked about earlier, so that parts of my story can encourage and empower somebody who may have some similar experience that I do. So the story is mine, but it's no longer about me. Kathy: That's excellent advice, and thanks for sharing that. It reminds me of something that Leslie Fields says is that we can never be the hero or heroine of our own stories. And I thought that was very interesting. And what she means by that is that our stories are meant to serve the world. If our motive or our time is spent trying to win people of our story or to show all the things that we've overcome instead of figuring out what are the truths and lessons that we can pass on to others as a result, then we then take ourselves out of the main character role and that's when we actually find connection. Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Kathy: And so that brings us to our third block, which is very related to the last one, is "I'm afraid of telling the truth". Now that's not, you might be afraid of telling the truth, but regarding your story, it could be that you don't want to share your story because you're afraid of what friends or family members are going to say. You wanna stay in relationships. You don't want to disconnect as a result of sharing your story. And this is a very valid block. And the way that you can work through this, if this is yours, is to find a trusted person or group to share your true story. And if you are wanting to write like a memoir, you can always change names or change the events a bit or even ask their permission if that's an option for you. But regardless of how and when you share it, it is the act of sharing your truth that is most important. What do you think about that? Kevin: Yeah, I think that that's such good advice. And perhaps the only thing to add here is to start small with sharing your story. Start with telling that one trusted friend. Start with telling your therapist, whatever therapeutic relationship you find yourself in. Go find a therapist if you don't have one. And then maybe you're in a small group and you wanna share that with a group of trusted peers. And then you go from there. So it's so important that you're telling your story somewhere that you can be seen and heard somewhere and see where that story and that journey of telling your story takes you. Kathy: For sure. One of our favorite life coach, spiritual coaches, Iyanla Vanzant says, “when you share your story, you heal yourself and you heal others.” Kevin: Yeah, that's so good. Kathy: And that is the crux of why your story matters. Kevin: Yeah, yeah. And so to sum up our episode today, your story does matter. It's important that you share your story. If you find yourself running into some blocks, it may be one of these three: that your story feels uninteresting, that you don't really want to revisit the past because you're focusing on the future, or that you're worried about telling your truth because of how it may impact your relationships around you. I just want to encourage you, if you're facing any of these three blocks, that your story does matter. There is somebody that could benefit from hearing what you've been through and how you've overcome, and so share your story with somebody that you trust and see where that journey of telling your story might take you. Kathy: Yes, for sure. To end our podcast today, we're going to hear a story from one of our Be Well community members, Leslie Carcamo. I am interviewing her on her new memoir, "Walking in Healing". Leslie's book is available on Amazon. Kevin: Yes, let's listen now. As we end, whatever it is you may be coping with, blessings to you. Kathy: Welcome, Leslie. My first question is, what prompted you to write your memoir, your own story? Leslie: Well, I love to write. I just, growing up, I didn't know what exactly. I started when I was younger, like just writing in my journal because I did not know how to express myself. So the only way I could do it is through journaling. And then I discovered later on that I just love writing. I wanted to write a devotional because I felt like devotionals are so pretty. And so, you know, just something that I could write about God and not about me. But then once I started writing, the only thing I could write is my story and then God began to work there, so. Kathy: Okay, well you mentioned one obstacle already of wanting to write your own story. What other obstacles did you face in this project? Leslie: For sure, fear of a lot of things, but one thing that, because I started writing a few years ago, but I got stuck in the fear of being vulnerable. I felt that it was too much or too out there, and I just was thinking of "what if people say this" or like just focusing on that and I just didn't know how to be vulnerable. Kathy: And then how did you overcome that? It gets stuck there, right? We're like, oh, nobody cares about this or people are going to judge me or I'm telling too much. It's TMI. Leslie: I remember one day in particular that I was just wanting to write and then so I got it again and now I just kept writing and at that very moment God began to heal some of the things that I was writing and I realized that I was being healed while I was writing and I wanted to experience that and help someone else experience that. I knew that the smallest thing people can relate to so I felt like if I just write this and one person can relate then it'll be worth it. You know I'll write about my life and about healing but the healing part of writing this book was another level.

Al and Kev talk about Piczle Cross: Story of Seasons Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:12: What Have We Been Up To 00:07:30: News 00:27:50: Piczle Cross: Story Of Seasons 00:43:16: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley “The Laugh Floor” Update Notes Coral Island Updated Roadmap Ikonei Island Console Versions Farm Folks Conveyor Belts Farming Simulator Kids Trailer Minami Lane Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Al: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about Mario- wait, no, that was last week. (0:00:38) Kevin: and my name is Kevin yeah I mean we could no no we’re just waiting for Princess Peach since it’s the main thing um there’s a demo if you play it you know what it is and you can maybe have your fill okay well okay well okay all right well yeah all right well let me know when you do play though Thank you for the question. (0:00:46) Al: There’s not much to talk about just now. (0:00:56) Al: I still haven’t played Donkey Kong vs or Mario vs Donkey Kong yet. (0:01:01) Al: I’ve been busy with other things. (0:01:07) Al: I’ve bought the game. (0:01:08) Al: I have the game. (0:01:09) Al: It’s sitting here right next to me. (0:01:10) Al: I just haven’t played it yet. (0:01:13) Al: It actually arrived while I was in the US. (0:01:23) Al: I just need to add to the clip. (0:01:25) Al: Oh, well, dude. (0:01:28) Al: Don’t you worry, we need the content. (0:01:32) Al: Awesome. (0:01:33) Al: Hi, Kevin. Welcome. We, today, we’re going to talk about (0:01:37) Al: Pixel Cross Story of Seasons, which is the new story of season themed (0:01:43) Al: nonogram or pie-cross game, however you want to call it. (0:01:46) Kevin: Yeah, it’s it’s just a big cross it’s like it’s like Kleenex right the the brand name is the thing (0:01:52) Al: Exactly, exactly. So, I believe Nonogram is the non-branded generic name for it, (0:01:54) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:59) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:59) Al: and Picross is the standard one that people know, and Pixelcross is this series. So, (0:02:04) Al: just to be confusing. So, we’re going to talk about that. Before that, we have some news. (0:02:05) Kevin: This up start (0:02:13) Al: First of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:16) Kevin: uh mostly sweating from the toilet (0:02:22) Kevin: um uh no but um what have I actually been playing um I uh no oh oh actually no big big day today I have done it I have done 152 shrines every piece of armor every same quest (0:02:40) Kevin: tonight my final showdown with Ganon too but I closed the book on Gears of the Kingdom (0:02:43) Al: Nice. (0:02:46) Kevin: very excited for that um yeah yeah fun fact i’ve actually been through that before because I was just like i’m curious what what happens if I go down here and I made it all the way to Ganon but then I got what by the the actual fights going on so um so yeah I at least have an idea of what to expect but uh now that I have a whole crew good stuff i’m looking forward to it. (0:02:48) Al: Awesome, that’s exciting. (0:03:13) Al: Fair enough (0:03:16) Kevin: It’s in a good place right now, but yeah, that’s kind of all I’ve been up to a lot. (0:03:42) Kevin: a lot of tears of the kingdom and big crush, really. (0:03:44) Kevin: What about you, Al? (0:03:45) Kevin: What you been up to? (0:03:46) Al: Yeah, I have actually been playing Pokemon. I’ve been doing, yeah, dangerous. The edge for presumably Legends, Legends Arceus, rather than Scarlet and Violet. I have been playing, (0:03:46) Kevin: Okay, I mean, I’ve gotten the itch. (0:04:05) Al: I’ve been doing the Venusaur raids, that’s what I’ve been doing. (0:04:08) Kevin: Okay. I… yeah, I mean like, um, I don’t know what it means, but right, they just don’t say who, (0:04:19) Kevin: as in what they did in Sword and Shield. Um, I don’t know if it’s because it’s kind of just following on that act, or because of the performance issues, or okay, there’s a number of reasons, I guess, (0:04:33) Kevin: but, um, I, um… (0:04:38) Kevin: I probably will go… I don’t know, I’ve missed a few of them for that mark, the collector and whatnot. (0:04:44) Kevin: Um, maybe I’ll fire… (0:04:46) Al: Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of how Pokemon like your your fellow trainers Pokemon fainting means that you just lose quicker. It feels not great, especially if you’re going online with randoms and you get one person who’s at level 50 and they get knocked out every two rounds, you’re dead and you’re dead in 30 seconds. It’s like that’s not fun. (0:04:57) Kevin: - Ah. (chuckling) (0:05:05) Kevin: oh yeah oh yeah that’s uh that’s oh that’s true see I have my brother and we play (0:05:14) Al: I feel like it kind of. (0:05:17) Al: It stops you recovering from bad strategy, right? (0:05:22) Al: Like, or it stops you recovering from bad players with good strategy. (0:05:23) Kevin: yeah (0:05:27) Al: Whereas, you know, because it’s too fast for you to be able to do anything about that. (0:05:27) Kevin: yep yeah (0:05:32) Al: Whereas in the sword and shield ones, yet them being knocked out wasn’t helping you. (0:05:37) Al: It’s not great that they’re being knocked out, but, you know, (0:05:39) Al: it wasn’t causing you an actual problem in that it was reducing the number of turns or whatever. (0:05:46) Kevin: What? Yeah, it was. (0:05:46) Al: So, not in, yeah, no, no, not in sword and shield. (0:05:47) Kevin: No, no, I’m thinking of the adventures. No, you’re right. I’m sorry. No, no, I’m thinking of the dead raid adventures. (0:05:52) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um… (0:05:52) Al: In sword and shield you had, like, was it 10 turns in total, I think, to knock it out. (0:05:57) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. (0:05:58) Kevin: Huh. I never thought about that. (0:06:01) Kevin: That’s… (0:06:03) Kevin: That is a weird design choice. Like, I kind of get it. (0:06:06) Kevin: ‘Cause now that everyone’s kind of on their own turn and incentivizes people to, you know, actually carry their weight instead of just doing the thing. (0:06:16) Kevin: Although that might be more helpful in certain circumstances. (0:06:19) Kevin: Um, but, uh, I mean, yeah, there’s a whole discussion we could have about the design of those things. (0:06:25) Kevin: I… (0:06:27) Kevin: If they want to keep going with these raids and whatnot, I really feel they need to put a little more work into, uh… (0:06:35) Kevin: I don’t know how to best describe this. (0:06:38) Al: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like you can’t bring in a level 50 or whatever. Yeah. (0:06:39) Kevin: I guess just implementing limits or restrictions, right? Like… (0:06:44) Kevin: Rental Book. (0:06:46) Kevin: Yup, yup, you need to have a level 100 or whatever for this fight, yada yada. (0:06:52) Kevin: Um, there, yeah, there’s definitely a lot that could be done. (0:06:56) Kevin: Um, and we’ve had that conversation elsewhere, but Rental Pokemon would probably be the easiest thing to do. (0:07:02) Kevin: Here’s some Pokemon you can use for the rest. (0:07:02) Al: Yeah, I think it would be great to have not just rental Pokémon, but rental Pokémon that other people can submit. So like, you know, people like Steve and other like YouTubers and stuff could say these are the builds that I’m suggesting I think would be fantastic. (0:07:10) Kevin: Oh, that’d be great, yep. (0:07:16) Kevin: Influencers. (0:07:19) Al: But yeah, you’re right, we’ve talked about that over and over again. So I’ve been playing that and I’ve been playing Pixel Cross and that’s about it this week. Not much, not much. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yeah, alright. (0:07:30) Al: Should we talk about some news? (0:07:32) Al: So Disney Dreamlight Valley, the full patch notes for the laugh floor update right now. (0:07:33) Kevin: I guess so. We’re legally obligated to by no one. (0:07:43) Al: So we talked about this a little bit last episode, but just in that it was coming, and obviously it was going to have Monsters Inc. So they’ve detailed a bunch of stuff. The link is in the show notes. I guess a few things I’ll just pick out. They have included the two characters, Mike and Sully. (0:08:03) Al: There are a number of new items. (0:08:05) Al: They’ve got the partner statue. (0:08:08) Al: They start you with Walt and Mickey at Disneyland. (0:08:11) Kevin: Yeah. Oh, do they have it in now? Okay. (0:08:12) Al: They’ve added that in the game now. (0:08:15) Al: And of course, the armor. (0:08:17) Al: You’ve got Dreamlight armor outfit for some reason. (0:08:22) Al: A bunch of new customization, some new star paths and premium bundles. (0:08:29) Al: And Scrooge McDuck’s shop has been expanded. (0:08:32) Al: Absolutely. Yeah, one thing that really annoyed me about that game is you start up and then he’s like, “Oh, I need some money to expand my shop” and you’re like, “No, you don’t. Away and use your own money.” (0:08:36) Kevin: Give the rich duck more money. (0:08:50) Kevin: that’s on how you became a trillionaire don’t you know how capitalism works I need your money to make more money oh that’s a good one (0:08:51) Al: Ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And… (0:09:03) Al: And, of course, you can change your name in the game now. So, there we go. (0:09:10) Al: If you want the more detailed notes there in the show notes, there’s a whole bunch of bugs fixed as well, which is always good. (0:09:16) Al: Next, we have an updated roadmap for Coral Island. So, I actually coincidentally talked about this last episode as well, because I was like, “Oh, I’ve not seen the roadmap in a while.” (0:09:27) Al: They’ve detailed the next three updates coming. (0:09:32) Al: 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. (0:09:36) Al: They’ve given some detailed information on some of the things coming in 1.1, including the town rank will now go up to S, including some more story and questlines around that. (0:09:53) Al: The tourists are coming, which are the backers. (0:09:56) Al: There was a certain level of backer who could get themselves in as an NPC. (0:09:58) Kevin: Yeah, that’s, hmm, that’s, oh, I don’t, I don’t know if I like that, that’s a, that’s a weird discourse. (0:10:00) Al: coming as tourists. (0:10:02) Al: And, of course, they are not romanceable, which everybody on Twitter is mad about. (0:10:14) Al: It is a little bit, it is a little bit like, oh, these characters that are based on real people, yeah, that’s very, very weird. (0:10:23) Kevin: Mmm. Although I will say, for the people who made it in, they should be able to romance themselves. (0:10:30) Kevin: But that will stand behind. (0:10:35) Al: They’re also adding in the finale of the giant storyline, which I’m very happy with, actually (0:10:44) Al: has some story for the mare folk, which I’m very happy about because, come on, they’re adding hangouts where you can, it’s, I mean, it’s basically dates with NPCs, no, well, (0:10:52) Kevin: You couldn’t before with the mermaids? (0:10:59) Kevin: What was the point? (0:11:00) Al: with the mare folk, there was nothing, there was, you could barely talk to the mare folk, (0:11:03) Al: there was almost nothing. (0:11:03) Kevin: What was the point? (0:11:04) Al: And that was my biggest issue. (0:11:06) Al: They would just decided that was going to be post 1.0 content. (0:11:09) Al: And I don’t think it should have been, I think that this 1.1 update is what should have been (0:11:14) Al: update. That was my whole thing. (0:11:15) Kevin: Probably yeah. Oh my gosh. I’m just looking at the list. Holy mackerel. This should have been 1.0 (0:11:21) Al: I suspect it was a money thing, but. (0:11:24) Kevin: Probably in game dev money matters what? (0:11:32) Al: Yeah, and they’re adding Thai to the game as well. (0:11:38) Al: So I was going to say, if you speak Thai and not English, you’re not going to hear me say that. (0:11:40) Kevin: Okay, um (0:11:44) Al: But there you go. (0:11:45) Kevin: Well, yeah There’s one I have a question about what does what does (0:11:51) Kevin: improvements to the hat system mean what does that mean? (0:11:54) Al: So when you wear a hat, it’s limited on what hairstyles you can have for that. (0:12:02) Kevin: Oh gosh, I hate that. I hate that so much. As someone with long hair, I often get the short end of that stick in games. Sword and Shield, I could wear hats with my actual hairstyle and it killed me. They’re great hats. Unite, just inside. Pokemon Unite is really bad because and hats are considered the same thing, you can’t actually separate them. (0:12:03) Al: So, yeah. (0:12:32) Kevin: Um, save for a few instances, but a lot of the hats come with hair and you do. (0:12:39) Kevin: Oh, that that’s a, that’s one that that’s a very niche and specific thing that really gets under my skin. (0:12:44) Al: Yeah, it gets worse. So I believe until this new update, if you were wearing a hat, you just wouldn’t have any hair. So now they’re adding two hairstyles for hats. I’m quite happy about it personally, because the other thing that games quite often miss with hair is bald options. And they’ll go like, “Oh, here’s a buzz cut,” or whatever, but they’ll very rarely have bald, whereas this did have bald from the start. (0:12:51) Kevin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. (0:12:57) Kevin: Okay. Well, AB steps. I wouldn’t call it. (0:13:08) Kevin: Okay. True. True. (0:13:14) Al: And we’ll actually have bald for hats. So a rare win for the bald heads. Cool. So yeah. (0:13:21) Kevin: Okay, there you go (0:13:27) Al: Oh, they’re also adding ocean farming and ranching. I’m very intrigued to see what… (0:13:30) Kevin: That’s a big one. (0:13:32) Kevin: Wait, what are you ranching? (0:13:34) Al: I don’t know. They’ve not detailed that yet, so I believe they’re going to talk about that in the next monthly update. So we’ll bring that when it comes. But yeah, I’m intrigued (0:13:44) Al: to see what they’re adding there. Like maybe sharks? Do you get to ranch sharks, maybe? (0:13:47) Kevin: mmm merfolk well you’re not wrong or at least can we get a revolutionary merperson who’s against the ranching I want some you know a little mermaid under (0:13:52) Al: Sounds like slavery. (0:14:14) Al: ICONI Island, they have said that their PlayStation Xbox versions are coming at the end of March. (0:14:26) Kevin: alright that game has very pretty art style only to check it out and not check it out but uh… (0:14:34) Kevin: now that we get consoles uh… (0:14:36) Kevin: oh he’s already on switch and paid down (0:14:38) Al: it is already on switch I believe oh wait maybe it’s not no it’s not on switch yet but they haven’t said anything about switch so who knows if they’ll ever actually come to switch because the this console update just (0:14:47) Kevin: okay well I’ll take (0:14:52) Kevin: mop-mop (0:14:57) Kevin: well I still might there’s a better chance I’ll check it out stuff oh the art isn’t the in-game visuals don’t match the art I’m not 100% you know what I mean all right but either way I’m more likely for me to check it out I do like (0:15:17) Kevin: having from up in the background there (0:15:23) Al: FarmFolks, they are adding quite, I think this is quite wild, their conveyor system. (0:15:31) Al: Have you watched the video on this, Kevin? (0:15:33) Kevin: Yes, it looks awesome. (0:15:35) Kevin: It looks like a monorail system. (0:15:36) Al: Yes, that’s exactly what it is. (0:15:38) Kevin: That’s what I’d call it. (0:15:40) Al: It’s like a monorail system with these trays that are going along this insane monorail system. (0:15:47) Al: And obviously the one they’ve built in the video is not what you would actually do, because is very very long and it doesn’t go (0:15:53) Al: anywhere, it just wiggles around. But I think they’re just trying to show how big and expansive it can be if you want it to be. So I am suddenly very interested in this game. (0:15:55) Kevin: yeah (0:15:59) Kevin: Yeah (0:16:03) Kevin: Right now you design your own roller coaster system for your crops or whatever (0:16:10) Kevin: Making up for that awful name (0:16:13) Al: Well, yeah. There are worse names, but yeah, it’s not a great- (0:16:16) Kevin: Well, okay, yes, yes, you’re right but um, yeah - Yeah. (0:16:26) Kevin: Oh, yeah, that looks fun. (0:16:27) Kevin: That’s a great looking monorail mare system. (0:16:33) Kevin: Kind of like Southfield reminds me of just the openness of it, (0:16:39) Al: Yeah, yeah. I forget, is this game out at all yet? It is not. I was wondering whether it was an early access one. No, it’s nothing. Nothing like that. And I don’t think we have (0:16:52) Kevin: Oh, well, looks that’s a good. (0:17:00) Kevin: I like that. (0:17:06) Kevin: I like how it looks with the art styles okay the (0:17:11) Kevin: My I know I’m I’m taking some interest in this. Wow the the person on their website. That’s just tracer from overwatch. Wow. Okay, um (0:17:20) Al: But in Fortnite style. (0:17:22) Kevin: But (0:17:26) Kevin: When will we get disney dreamland across fortnite (0:17:32) Al: Which way round, like… (0:17:33) Kevin: it’s closer than you think but you know what it could (0:17:36) Kevin: be either and or I don’t think so because there’s an announcement that they made an agreement they’re gonna put a whole universe in it for it like (0:17:38) Al: Because I feel like there have been Disney characters in Fortnite. (0:17:48) Al: - Yeah, but that’s. (0:17:51) Kevin: I mean I guess there’s the Marvel and Star Wars stuff but I don’t know if Disney Cooper I don’t think Mickey Minuss has been in Fortnite (0:17:58) Al: No, it looks like you’re right. (0:17:59) Al: It looks like they haven’t actually got any Disney proper characters in there. (0:18:04) Al: Just just the other the other companies they own. (0:18:12) Al: All right, Farming Simulator Kids, we have a release date (0:18:16) Al: for this is coming on the 26th of March. (0:18:20) Al: So just just under a month to go. (0:18:24) Al: We also know we have this trailer. (0:18:26) Al: have some sort of (0:18:28) Al: idea of the actual gameplay and it looks kind of minigame-esque, very much definitely looks like a kids game, I can see why it’s farming simulator kids. (0:18:40) Kevin: Yeah, there’s, uh, there’s a lot we can talk about here in my, uh, I mean, okay, first of all, it does, it’s not your boring, realistic, uh, no, not boring, but it’s not the standard, realistic farming simulator, it actually has a good, friendly style. (0:19:00) Kevin: Um, I think this is actually a very clever idea. (0:19:05) Kevin: Um, I, I think it’s your towards. (0:19:10) Kevin: It’s like, particularly young kids, um, because there’s like, basic maths and, and sorts of mini games. (0:19:20) Kevin: It’s also very clearly designed for tablets, which is a very common kid. (0:19:26) Kevin: Here’s your tablet thing now. (0:19:28) Kevin: Um, uh, I, I appreciate when there are, you know, genuine efforts to make quality type game (0:19:40) Kevin: kids, even as young as this demographic. (0:19:43) Kevin: Um, and it feels like that’s, uh, that’s how it’s going on here. (0:19:48) Kevin: Um, and, uh, it’s a smart move. (0:19:51) Kevin: Hook ’em on, hook ’em early to the Farm Simulator brand. (0:19:52) Al: Yeah, on one hand, it’s definitely, it looks very kid-friendly and very, it looks like it could be fun, while kind of getting some kind of ideas towards realistic farming in that it taught, you know, it’s trying to show you like the different stages and then what you do with these things. But it feels a little bit weird in that farming simulators thing is they are the realistic farming simulator. (0:20:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I will say it is unexpected. I’ll say that. But I, I think it’s a clever. (0:20:22) Al: This is not in any way a realistic farming simulator. (0:20:28) Al: So, I don’t know, it feels a little bit weird (0:20:40) Kevin: I think it’s a good way of going about it right because like, I don’t think farming’s in the head. (0:20:48) Kevin: young, demographic feel, um, and there’s (0:20:52) Kevin: little bits like the actual farming aspects, right? (0:20:56) Kevin: The crops and the, and I’m on the livestock are relatively realistic, right? (0:21:02) Kevin: They’re not cartoony. (0:21:04) Al: Yeah, they’re oversimplified, though. That’s the point, right? I think it’s only as realistic as other farming sims, but I don’t know. I need to try it to see that, because I don’t know if that’s actually the case. (0:21:04) Kevin: Um, they’re in the, whatever art style it’s in, but it is still. (0:21:17) Kevin: I guess so. (0:21:20) Kevin: Yeah, I (0:21:23) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot going on here too. There’s the omics running shop you feed people sandwiches from (0:21:30) Kevin: Shirley violet those are the exact shippers early by the (0:21:36) Kevin: You do the farms you the you know the actual farming and livestock, but there’s like indoor games and things like that (0:21:43) Kevin: For some reason dragging a kid into a bathtub (0:21:48) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know there’s I’m not surprised right farming simulator clearly has money, so um (0:21:55) Kevin: and I still think it’s a (0:21:59) Kevin: Good idea, and I think it’s it’s a pretty alright looking kid’s game (0:22:04) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:22:05) Kevin: Although the the static followed by the aliens on the TV freaks me out a little that’s that’s some creepy harvest moon nonsense They’re pulling there (0:22:14) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:22:16) Al: I’ll need to try this out to get Craig to try it and and see what it’s like. (0:22:21) Al: And last but not least, in the news, we have a new game, Minami Lane. (0:22:28) Al: Do you think it’s Minami? (0:22:30) Al: Minami. (0:22:30) Kevin: Sure, oh wait, it’s not Miami, it is Miami. (0:22:33) Al: Yeah, it does. (0:22:34) Al: So this game has just come out. (0:22:37) Kevin: Yeah. (0:22:41) Kevin: It’s not the GTA VI simulator, farming simulator. (0:22:46) Al: It came out yesterday, I think, as we were recording, so a week ago. (0:22:51) Al: The little blurb on it is, “Welcome to Minami Lane. (0:22:54) Al: Build your own street in this tiny, cosy, casual management sim. (0:22:59) Al: Unlock and customize buildings, manage your shops, and maximise the happiness of your (0:23:04) Al: villagers to complete quests and fill your street with (0:23:09) Kevin: Okay, so it, uh, it feels very, um, it’s the, the bunny game and the can’t game. (0:23:19) Kevin: When would you guys talk about before or wherever you talk about? (0:23:20) Al: Mm. Yes. Um, Usagi Shima and, uh, what’s it called? (0:23:23) Kevin: Yeah. (0:23:27) Kevin: That goes on the, yeah, it feels very much in that vein, probably (0:23:32) Kevin: largely because of the art style and the kind of isometric view. (0:23:39) Kevin: I mean, it’s really just centralized on this one street, right? (0:23:43) Kevin: So, um, uh, overall, but you like how it looks overall. (0:23:51) Kevin: Um, I think the art style is, it’s charming. (0:23:56) Kevin: It’s kind of old story book-ish feel. (0:24:00) Kevin: I don’t know how to describe that better. (0:24:02) Kevin: Um, I like the customizability options it looks like, and there’s some goofies. (0:24:09) Kevin: Like a Capa walking around. (0:24:11) Kevin: There’s cats that you can pet. (0:24:13) Kevin: Um, I think it’s cute. (0:24:15) Kevin: This feels like what I would have wanted from Garden Galaxy. (0:24:19) Al: Yeah, I feel like this is kind of, because I’ve talked about how I used to really like (0:24:27) Al: city building games and stuff, but then they got really complicated and I don’t like that anymore. (0:24:29) Kevin: Mm-hmm [laughter] (0:24:35) Al: But this feels like it’s simple enough that I could enjoy it, but complicated enough that it’s yeah, not just Garden Galaxy, it’s not just like put things down where you want them to. (0:24:49) Al: Like there’s actually a purpose to that and you’re trying to do something. (0:24:50) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, there’s little bits of feedback like you’re customizing your ramen that you sell in the shop. That’s cute. Yeah, no, I agree. It’s striking a nice balance of actually having stuff to do or feels like but not overwhelming you with all the crazy, mighty aspects of those crazy city builders. (0:25:16) Al: - Yeah, and it’s super cheap. (0:25:20) Kevin: Let’s see, oh, it released, it’s already out, how much should we take? (0:25:23) Kevin: Wow, it’s like five bucks, yeah, you’re right, roughly, yeah. (0:25:28) Kevin: I’ll have to check that out, probably, maybe, I don’t know. (0:25:32) Al: No, no promises. Never any promises. Yeah, I’m very tempted to try this out. (0:25:34) Kevin: It looks cute, no promises. (0:25:42) Kevin: There’s a yokai tree, wait, what does that mean? (0:25:46) Kevin: Is that why there’s a cat by walking around? (0:25:46) Al: It’s a tree with yokai, obviously. I also like how it starts out small, and when it starts out small, it’s like the actual area you have is small. So you don’t have like, (0:25:48) Kevin: Bye. (0:25:58) Al: One of the things about city builders quite often is you have this massive area. (0:26:02) Al: But you can only use a tiny bit of it but you still have to see everything whereas this is like here it focuses only on the area you have and everything else is nothing right it’s like this is the only thing that exists to you this is this is your focus and then as more areas become available to you then they become visible in the game which I really like (0:26:04) Kevin: Mm-hmm, right? (0:26:16) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:18) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:22) Kevin: Right, right, yeah (0:26:25) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:27) Kevin: All the customization options too looks like (0:26:29) Al: Or you can build tree houses. (0:26:31) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s what the yokai trees for (0:26:37) Kevin: Yeah, oh there you go, there’s your Boba cafe, oh shoot they got tenuki it’s off brand (0:26:43) Kevin: Tom Nook was running everything (0:26:46) Kevin: I (0:26:50) Kevin: This is tempting me, I won’t lie. I might actually look into it. He’s on the steam probably on the steam. It’s clickin (0:26:58) Kevin: Let’s team game on the odd bet it to find an audience on switch (0:27:02) Al: It is, it is only on Steam, yeah. (0:27:03) Kevin: Developers names you (0:27:05) Al: I can’t see any indication. (0:27:06) Kevin: Yeah, all right (0:27:10) Kevin: They’re probably not planning it now until the money rolls in (0:27:16) Kevin: Yeah, but man check it out folks Minami Lane. It’s cute (0:27:20) Kevin: If you like the soggy, I think whatever the thing was (0:27:24) Al: Usagi, Usagi Shima and Neko Atsumi, which by the way, we should probably mention, I guess, Neko Atsumi, they’re making a new, a new one, a second Neko. (0:27:26) Kevin: Thank you, there you go you like those check it out (0:27:37) Kevin: Yeah, they said all mad people like that for those bunnies we can’t let them steal our thunder (0:27:42) Al: Cool. That’s the news. Woo. So we are going to talk about what is definitely a farming game. Pixel cross story of season. (0:27:48) Kevin: Whoo (0:27:58) Kevin: You’re making things grow in your mind, Al. (0:28:05) Kevin: Okay, so first off, I mean simple. (0:28:08) Al: Yes, how to explain this game. (0:28:14) Kevin: Okay, you do know Picross, okay now that, but now put Story of Seasons on it, there you go. (0:28:20) Al: Yeah, I mean, so, so, yeah, so let’s let’s start out with, I mean, it is what you think is it’s it’s a nonogram, it’s a pie cross, whatever you want to call it. That is what it is. That is the game. But what’s quite interesting is that they have built a kind of self-creating farm in. (0:28:21) Kevin: This is the game. (0:28:23) Kevin: Guess what, I like both of those, it’s a good game. (0:28:50) Al: I’m not 100% sure exactly what’s happening, but I’m halfway through summer and I’ve not done that many puzzles. (0:28:53) Kevin: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:29:08) Kevin: I thought it was one day per puzzle too, but you might be right. I don’t know. (0:29:18) Al: a few more days than I have puzzles done. (0:29:20) Kevin: Hmm (0:29:20) Al: But that aside, that aside, as you progress, you have your two, they’re like the horror, (0:29:32) Al: well, the story of seasons characters, the main ones. The harvest, yeah, but in 3D, (0:29:35) Kevin: the og harvest moon protagonists (0:29:39) Al: which is that they’ve recreated them in 3D, they are just going about doing a farm behind you. (0:29:45) Al: Now, they’re very slow, I would not take two seasons to start. (0:29:50) Al: Planting some seeds. But, I think it’s cute. (0:29:56) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:29:58) Kevin: OK, let me take this to the back here. (0:30:00) Kevin: How much experience do you have with pickers and all? (0:30:03) Al: Oh, pretty decent amount, yeah. I’ve played a good chunk of the official progress ones. (0:30:05) Kevin: OK. (0:30:09) Al: I’ve played some many other ones. I had an app on my phone for a while doing some nonogram. (0:30:12) Kevin: Mm-hmm okay okay um that’s uh well you know because yeah that that’s the game right so if you’re you listener enjoy it you will enjoy this game undoubtedly so I think there’s two things we can look at it here first all the the story of seasons aspect of it because yeah that’s going on in the background but you’re just seeing it whenever you go back to the main menu. (0:30:16) Al: Yeah, you know, the usual. (0:30:42) Kevin: You can imagine with these themed puzzle games, all the puzzles are story of season related, right? (0:30:44) Al: Yeah. (0:30:46) Al: No, I’m actually looking at it right now. (0:30:48) Al: It’s completely paused while you’re doing puzzles. (0:31:06) Kevin: Your puzzles are going to be turnip and watering cans and characters from the story of season games. (0:31:12) Kevin: In fact, they have what’s called an almanac where you can just basically go through all the characters and stuff once you complete their puzzles, you get art and information on them and whatnot. (0:31:26) Kevin: And so it’s very much a story of seasons celebration type game as well, right? A lot more condensed, but it’s a fun little Hall of Fame. (0:31:41) Kevin: And on top of that. (0:31:42) Kevin: When big advantage it has over other (0:31:45) Kevin: The cross games you get that wonderful wonderful story of season soundtrack. They have a (0:31:52) Kevin: sampling from different games (0:31:55) Kevin: Um, and I really enjoy it, especially the wonderful life ones (0:31:59) Kevin: those those (0:32:02) Kevin: I (0:32:06) Al: I’m shocked, I’m shocked. (0:32:06) Kevin: So, yeah, that’s right (0:32:10) Kevin: So, you know, I give it thumbs up on (0:32:12) Kevin: that aspect from this little tribute game, right? (0:32:16) Kevin: But now looking at it, getting a little more in depth here from the cross side of it. (0:32:24) Kevin: I’m actually really surprised and pleased by how much of a control you can have over there. (0:32:32) Kevin: They give you a lot of accessibility and options to help deal with the puzzles. (0:32:36) Kevin: There’s color indicators to help you kind of see. (0:32:42) Kevin: There’s a clue you can look at here, or you’ve completed this row, or autofill empty spaces, etc. (0:32:52) Kevin: There’s a lot of options in my opinion, or at least compared to the ones I’ve played. (0:32:58) Kevin: And I think that’s cool. (0:33:00) Kevin: Me being who I am, I turn them all off, and I have just the grid with black and white numbers, (0:33:06) Kevin: and I go at it like that. (0:33:10) Kevin: because that’s how I like to play playgrounds, (0:33:11) Kevin: but, (0:33:12) Kevin: what, for people who maybe don’t enjoy it as much like I do in my crazy, miserable style, (0:33:20) Kevin: they offer a lot for that and, in fact, it’s the default. (0:33:24) Kevin: They ease your way into it, which I appreciate. (0:33:30) Kevin: I don’t know how many puzzles there are, but I feel like there’s probably a lot. (0:33:35) Al: There are a lot because I think there’s is it 30 on the first screen and then there are multiple screens and then there’s also 25 on the first screen but then but then there’s a good like seven or eight pages and then there’s also the mosaic ones as well that you build up as you go so yeah there’s quite a few. (0:33:42) Kevin: I… yeah, I think it’s 25 on the first… is it 30? 25, 30, one of them. (0:33:55) Kevin: Yep, the collage ones where you, you know, you do your different pictures, or different puzzles that form one big picture altogether, and I appreciate that, right? (0:34:09) Kevin: I played Pokemon Picross, which did a similar mechanic, and I’ve always found that a lot of fun. (0:34:15) Kevin: A clever way of doing, you know, a nice big picture that you can’t quite see. (0:34:22) Kevin: I, um, yeah, I mean. (0:34:25) Kevin: I don’t know, it’s- the game maybe feels small because it only has like two screens, basically, the puzzle screen and the main menu, but… (0:34:34) Al: I think, I mean, if you’re not used to Picross games, I can understand why you might think it was small, right? But like, I don’t know about you, but like, compared to most Picross games, it feels pretty standard. Size-wise. (0:34:48) Kevin: I guess so like I’m trying to think maybe I haven’t played as many as I like I (0:34:55) Kevin: Say the 3d ones I played Pokemon pick cross played Mario’s pick cross I’m trying to think I can’t remember the last time I played up across like s game or whatever. Um, so maybe you’re right (0:35:05) Kevin: but either way, it’s not really necessary because (0:35:08) Kevin: It’s just (0:35:14) Kevin: I (0:35:16) Kevin: I’m curious to see if… (0:35:19) Kevin: you know, once you complete certain sections from the almanac or collections or whatever, I’m curious to see if there’s any more. (0:35:26) Kevin: But, you know, all that’s just sprinkles on top. (0:35:30) Kevin: Yeah, what can I say? Spoolcross is really good, right? Like, it’s hard to critique it because it is what it is, right? (0:35:36) Kevin: It’s like Tetris, you know, Tetris. (0:35:38) Al: Yeah, I mean I also I really like the characters building away your farm in the background. (0:35:49) Al: I think it’s a really fun addition that makes it, like this is what makes it a story of seasons one, rather than just it’s across but also they’re all farming related, right? (0:35:52) Kevin: It is. Yeah. (0:35:58) Kevin: For. (0:36:01) Al: I mean obviously they’ve got some of the characters as them but come on. (0:36:02) Kevin: For. (0:36:06) Kevin: Yeah, you know, okay. (0:36:08) Al: So, I just double-checked there are 270 main ones and then there are five more collages which all have like 10 to 20 in them. (0:36:12) Kevin: Okay, I do. (0:36:16) Kevin: - That’s okay, yeah, that’s a good chunk, I appreciate that. (0:36:22) Kevin: All right, the bunch. (0:36:29) Kevin: Yeah, it’s something like that. (0:36:32) Kevin: Okay, one thing I will say, I do wish, because you’re right, (0:36:37) Kevin: the building up of the farm in the background, I think it’s cute and charming, right? (0:36:47) Kevin: I do wish they put it a little more up front. (0:36:50) Kevin: Like. (0:36:52) Kevin: I don’t know like maybe clearly saying, okay, complete three puzzles and you upgrade your barn or you get a cow in the background or whatever. (0:37:02) Al: Yeah. I’m actually wondering whether it might be time based, like real time based, or like the number of days you go in, because I just feel like I’m halfway through summer and they’re still breaking rocks. And I just, I feel like, I mean, I’ve basically only been playing it today, right? I haven’t, I haven’t played it before today. It only came out, what, two days ago. So I didn’t play it yesterday or the day before I played it today. So I, and (0:37:07) Kevin: I’m, yeah, that’s likely. (0:37:23) Kevin: Yeah. (0:37:28) Kevin: Yeah. (0:37:33) Al: it’s like most of these games designed to be play a few a day, then put it down. And so therefore I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how they built up the farm is because that’s how they expect most people to play. It’s a couple of times a day. So each day the farm (0:37:39) Kevin: Yeah, I’m sure but those (0:37:52) Kevin: okay you know what that makes a lot of sense and you’re probably right and they’re also wrong because they should be wandering to the maniacs like me who just retreat and and just play pick rocks for hours and hours (0:37:56) Al: Yeah, I think this is the only game we could potentially cover this quickly after it came out, right? Two days. Two days and we’re already recording a podcast about it. I don’t think we’ve done that for any game. It is absolutely wild that we’ve done that. But it’ll be interesting. (0:38:16) Kevin: Well, when Story of Seasons Tetris comes out, we’ll do the same. (0:38:20) Al: We’ll check in. We’ll definitely check in. (0:38:26) Al: And in the future to see if it’s gone any further. Did you play in the last two days as well as today? What are your characters doing? Open up. (0:38:33) Kevin: Yes, I played. I haven’t played today, but I played yesterday and the day before um (0:38:39) Kevin: Um I think they’re roughly at the same place where you said I’m also I (0:38:44) Kevin: in summer I don’t recall how far I’m into it, but I spent some a lot of time in the (0:38:49) Kevin: the collage puzzle - (0:38:52) Kevin: But they’re I think they planted some seeds at this point (0:38:58) Al: See, mine haven’t. Nope, no seeds planted at all, so I, that does feel to me like it’s, (0:39:03) Kevin: I (0:39:06) Al: so I’ve finished. I’ve, yeah. (0:39:07) Kevin: Could be wrong. I might be misremembering um (0:39:11) Kevin: Like us like we said it’s only like when you go to the main menu when you see it right um so sometimes I’m not even paying that much attention. I’m (0:39:18) Kevin: They sometimes just looks like they’re just running around and just smashing stuff because that’s that was a lot of it at the beginning (0:39:25) Kevin: But I probably will stick with it, and I’m curious to see you know how big it will get (0:39:32) Kevin: It would have been (0:39:33) Kevin: I think it would have been a little fun to have a little more flourish during the actual puzzle - not inside the grid or anything But just maybe have the character standing around looking at the puzzle doing any moat or an action when something happens. You know what I mean? (0:39:48) Al: Yeah, yeah, that could have been fun. (0:39:50) Kevin: Just just a little something like that, right and and maybe introduce some other characters from the games Right because you have the almond I can that the puzzles or whatnot But it’d be nice to see him just hey walking by or saying hello or whatever (0:40:03) Kevin: But you know all that’s new thinking more or less because it’s pig cross really like it’s a double thumbs up for me (0:40:16) Al: No, I agree. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else we want to talk about this game. (0:40:16) Kevin: What the new Pokemon games pig cross sold [laughter] (0:40:28) Kevin: Uh, I mean, it was, yep, really simple, right? (0:40:29) Al: If you like Picross, you will like this game. That’s it. You should. (0:40:36) Kevin: And if, I will say, if you’ve never played pick offs, this is a fun one to get into. (0:40:42) Kevin: Yes, you should want to do it now to, uh, this is a good one to pick up. (0:40:48) Kevin: Like I said, there’s a lot of options and customizability and how you want to play. (0:40:53) Kevin: Um, and then I, I think it’s a very. (0:40:58) Kevin: Good entry point, not like that crosses anything crazy hard or anything, but it it makes you feel welcome. Let’s say (0:41:08) Al: I agree. It is definitely one of the most accessible ones, and it gives you it gives you an incentive as well. So if you do put on some of the hints and stuff like that, (0:41:12) Kevin: Yep, and the good music. (0:41:24) Al: it will indicate that that’s happened. It won’t penalize you, but it will indicate at the end that you used one of the specific things, which might give you an incentive to go, Oh, let me try doing it without those hints. (0:41:30) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yeah, yep (0:41:38) Al: I don’t like when they penalize you for doing stuff like that, (0:41:41) Al: but it’s fun to give you just a little bit of a nudge to be like, Hey, maybe try it. (0:41:44) Kevin: Yeah (0:41:46) Al: Maybe dry it, you know. (0:41:47) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and (0:41:50) Kevin: Something of really minor detail that I haven’t seen in any of the I don’t think I’ve seen any other pick cross games I played (0:41:57) Kevin: It will actually record your time Which I think is fun. If you want to go back and see if you’ve improved any I got some tricks and whatnot (0:42:06) Al: Yeah, I managed to get the first level down to three seconds. (0:42:07) Kevin: Oh (0:42:11) Kevin: Jeez jeez man (0:42:14) Kevin: I probably could but I’m so methodical about my across like I know I could just look at it and solve it But I want to do it robot once I normally do (0:42:20) Al: Yeah, well, the good thing about that one is it’s just like the top three rows are all full and then the middle column is full. That’s all you need to do. So it’s like you can immediately see because it’s like four, you see four fives. So you just go across the fives and that’s it done. (0:42:41) Kevin: yeah yep yeah yes alright well I guess that’s that huh cuz I got nothing else for it um it’s a good one pick it again that’s pick pixel like you know you like the the squares you get it you get it out pixel story of seasons (0:42:41) Al: It was fun. It was fun to see how quickly I could do that one. And it’s literally just the only thing that’s stopping me is the fact that the buttons take time to move across. That’s it. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah, that’s fine. Play the game. (0:43:10) Al: Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you, Kevin, for joining me to talk about Pixel Cross Story of Seasons. I’m sure Mika will be sad that he wasn’t here to talk about it as well. (0:43:12) Kevin: something like that go look up google is where joe fine is (0:43:27) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, we’ll get him on when we went to be the second harvest (0:43:34) Al: Game of the year 2020 (0:43:37) Kevin: Well, look if you get is both on there’s a more than a non-zero chance of that (0:43:42) Al: Where can people find you on the internet, Kevin? (0:43:48) Kevin: Find me at Cooper Press for my personal Twitter on (0:43:52) Kevin: We’re currently now posting a lot of good dank memes about Pokemon legends (0:43:58) Kevin: Find me at spreader square to gonna see my art or find me at Rainbow Road radio The Mario podcast that I do with in this case last week out you were on (0:44:10) Kevin: Where we went through some Mario questions and discussed Brie Larson and most importantly we casted the (0:44:17) Kevin: live-action Mario movie (0:44:20) Kevin: So, you know buckle in for that one. What about you out? Where do people find you? (0:44:26) Al: Well you can find me on last week’s episode of Rainbow Road Radio. (0:44:30) Al: You can also find me on Twitter and on Mastodon at thescotbot. (0:44:37) Al: You can find the podcast on Tumblr and Twitter at THSPod. (0:44:43) Al: You can find links to everything we’ve talked about in the show notes and also on our website harvestseason.club where we also have a feedback form if you want to send us feedback. (0:44:54) Al: If you do that, it’ll probably get mentioned on the podcast. (0:44:56) Al: You’ll also find a link to our Patreon, patreon.com/thspod, (0:44:57) Kevin: Hey, there you go (0:45:03) Al: where you can support the podcast. If you do that, you will get access to the Slack, (0:45:08) Al: where we love to mock me. And we have been admiring Cody’s Fox Craft Island. (0:45:17) Al: You’ll also find bonus episodes of the podcast called The Greenhouse, (0:45:22) Al: Where we talk about things that are not, CODGECORE GAMES. (0:45:27) Al: Including either already out or coming out soon, depending on if I have any time tomorrow, (0:45:33) Al: will be me and Kevin talking about the Pokemon Day Presents and some stuff that happened in that. (0:45:44) Al: I mean, one thing, right? That’s what we’re going to be talking about, one thing. (0:45:47) Kevin: All right. (0:45:48) Al: Unless you particularly want to talk about the master’s updater. (0:45:53) Kevin: This is Thank you. (0:45:55) Al: All right, cool. Wow. Thank you. (0:45:56) Al: Thank you, Kevin, again, for joining me. Thank you listeners for listening and until next time, have a good harvest. (0:46:03) Theme Tune: The harvest season is created by Al McKinley, with support from our patrons, including our pro farmers, Kevin, Stuart and Alisa. (0:46:18) Theme Tune: Our art is done by Micah the Brave, and our music is done by Nick Burgess. (0:46:22) Theme Tune: Feel free to visit our website harvestseason.club for show notes and links to things we discussed in this episode. (0:46:38) Kevin: I mean, I guess it was the Marvel and Star Wars stuff, but I don’t know if Disney for Looper I don’t think Mickey Minuss has been in for it not yet (0:46:55) Al: scrolling down a list now. Marshmallow, some DC characters. This is a very long list. Alien, (0:46:58) Kevin: No goofy, immigrative. (0:47:05) Kevin: I’ll mope. (0:47:11) Kevin: Too long, some would say. (0:47:15) Kevin: Oh my gosh, he was in that. (0:47:22) Kevin: Solid snakes in there. (0:47:24) Al: It’s just such a long list, I feel like it’d be quicker to google it.

Dive into the realm of digital marketing mastery with Kevin Daisey, Founder and CMO of Array Digital. This episode of the Hard to Market podcast peels back the layers on harnessing podcasting for organic leads, the power of niching down, and leadership in marketing. Get the inside scoop as Kevin unravels how to cultivate lucrative relationships and elevate your brand!Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.Podcasting is a key to organic leads.Importance of niching down.The art of lifting leaders.Building real connections through podcasting.Integration of AI in podcasting.Resources:Array DigitalPodcast ChefConnect with Kevin Daisey:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:18:51 - But you know, you could take an audio of yourself that you don't have a video of and create a video with AI so you can take some of the content you've created and use an AI, produce it as articles, social content, all kinds of stuff. And so we have such a library of topics and recordings that we've already done the work on, and now you can take that and repurpose and do things with it. But AI could be a huge part there to leverage.17:35 - That is, you know, AI-generated, or I saw a podcast between two AIs the other day, role-playing as like Einstein and Jean-Paul Sartre or something, and it was like, holy crap. So, I think it's important to understand that there's some meaningful distinctions there between the work that you do, the work that I do, and podcasting at large, particularly the entertainment style stuff.14:47 - Brian: So what I guess, what I want to hear next is a little bit more about what's next, right? So you talked about the amount of opportunity that is created and where it's going. What's next for your podcast? How do you view that integrating with the business even further? And where does it go from here?Kevin: Yeah, yeah, good point. Well, you know, I'd like to, you know, we're about to put some more energy and money behind promotion of the podcast to get it out to other, more people. Probably polish up some things. You can look at my background right now. It's, you know, so we're gonna put a little bit more spit shine on it, I guess.26:35 - But I think applying pieces of it and actually doing it over time, and there's no secret, there's a lot of little things you gotta get, right? So if you're running a business, there's lots of people that have done it. Talk to them, get mentors, talk to people, get a group mastermind, and just immerse yourself. But there's a lot of little things you gotta do. It's either hire people to do 'em or you gotta do 'em yourself. And that's what it takes. That's just it. There's no secret sauce here. That's a big lesson there.30:54 - We want things to be different. I mean, they said it in Age of Ultra, right? The Marvel movie, I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. They say it like, you want things to change, you want things to be different, but you don't want them to change. It's that, it's perfect, right? You keep thinking like, oh yeah, I definitely want this outcome, but you don't want to, you don't want the discomfort of change required to make that outcome occur. So do you really, you know, is it a wish at that point or is it a reality that you're willing to make happen? And I think you've encapsulated it very well. Like all of the stuff is out there. Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

This podcast episode features a conversation with Kevin Crispin, a mental health advocate and podcast host. Kevin believes that stories are a powerful tool for healing. He shares his own experiences with anxiety and panic attacks, showcasing his humorous and sarcastic approach to mental health. Through their discussion, Kevin and host Lisa Boehm emphasize the importance of humor in dealing with mental health challenges and finding joy in the midst of difficult times. ............................................................. Find Kevin here: www.sadtimespodcast.com @sadtimespodcast (instagram) Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/373292146649249) ............................................................. Rising Strong links: Get new episode notifications: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Follow us on Instagram: www.instagram.com/risingstrongpodcast Facebook page - send your reviews and comments via the 'comment' button here: www.facebook.com/risingstrongpodcast Email Lisa your ideas for solo episodes: https://www.lisakboehm.com/contact-lisa WIN SWAG: · Email a screenshot of your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode ............................................................ TRANSCRIPTS: Host/Lisa: If you think humor and mental health don't go well together, you're wrong, because today's guest is going to make you giggle and smile. Kevin Crispin is a mental health advocate and podcast host who believes that stories are the great healing currency of humankind. Kevin and I connected in the podcast space online, and a few weeks ago I was on his podcast, sad times. It turns out that Kevin and I have a lot in common, including a long history with anxiety and panic attacks. Now, don't let that scare you. I think you'll really enjoy Kevin's humorous and sarcastic approach to mental health. Welcome to the show, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, thanks for having me. And I do want to say at this recording, we did record a couple of weeks ago. We have not released it yet, but don't worry. Now, as I watch you and learn how to do social media, I will tag you once we do release yours in the upcoming weeks. Host/Lisa: Perfect. Look forward to sharing that to the internets. Yes, to the Googles and the internets. Kevin: And the chat gbts, who will then explain to us what we just. Host/Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So let's jump right into this. Kevin, you have, as I said, a long history with anxiety. Let's go back in time and tell us when that started. Kevin: Yeah. When we conversed a little bit beforehand, I did make an attempt at a pithy remark to say it started when I was born, but really, I would say it was about when I was four was when I really started to notice it. I was someone who would get very anxious and wanted to make sure everybody around me felt okay and was okay. The first time I had a knowing panic attack, or at least where I felt like this doesn't feel right. I was about five years old. I was staying in my grandparents, and I was sitting in the living room at their house, and it was almost as if the walls were closing in on me because I just kept having the same thought over and over again. I'm going to run away. I'm going to run away. I'm going to run away now. I didn't want to run away, but I was so afraid I was going to run away. And I became consumed with that fear. So I'm consumed with this fear, which is antithetical to what I want to be doing at that moment, which was sitting in that chair thinking about the cubs or something. And I was consumed by the fear. But also a part of me was thinking to myself, but I don't want to do this. Why am I so worried about it? And this was long before I had had any sort of mental health diagnosis. This is long, a couple of years before I started therapy, and I had no idea about what that disconnect meant or what my perception of reality when I am anxious meant. Like, I couldn't have dove down into any of those things, but at the time I was just very afraid and very confused. Host/Lisa: Wow, that must have been frightening, especially as a little kid. Kevin: Yeah, it's pretty hardcore. And I think this is true and maybe this will be true of some of your listeners. I had all these thoughts, I got through it, but I didn't know how to talk to anybody about it because I didn't know how to explain to them. I thought if I went up to my grandma and said, I'm afraid I'm going to run away, she would say something very loving like, well, you're not going to run away. We won't let you. You're going to be just safe here. But when I try to explain, I don't want to run away, that's when you get the perplexed look like, well, why are you afraid of it? And so I just kind of kept it to myself. And that's something that I've done a lot of my life, is I've kept my worries to myself because I didn't always know how to explain them to people, and often too, at no fault of anybody else's. If you start to have a long explanation about the struggles that you're having, that can cause the anxiety for them, like, we'll wait. I don't understand what we're talking about and all this stuff. So I think I learned early on self learning behavior. Nobody taught me this to keep it to myself and just get through it and make sure everybody else is okay. Host/Lisa: I know myself with anxiety in particular. I felt really stupid saying things, just. Kevin: Saying them out loud. Host/Lisa: Saying them out loud. As soon as I started saying them out loud, it just sounded ridiculous that I would be anxious about something and then I was self conscious and then I wouldn't want to embarrass myself. And like you say, it's just for a variety of reasons. It's sometimes easier to keep it on the inside. Not so much healthy, but easier. Kevin: Or what we think is easier. Right? Host/Lisa: You're right. Kevin: It goes to something else that I've learned over the many years that often what's going on? I'm a big believer in storytelling. I believe, as I have said a couple of times, stories are the great healing power of humankind. The more we hear, the more we heal. But there's an adverse to that. And there are stories we tell ourselves in our head that are, in your case, that you just said, that's stupid. Or I'm self conscious about that. That's a story where, let's just say it's you and one other person and you don't want to tell them. It's almost as if you're taking their agency away, too, without giving them the chance to say, well, no, Lisa, it's not stupid. Or Kevin. No, it's not weird that you are afraid. You want to run away, but you're not wanting to run away. Host/Lisa: Yeah, that's really interesting, too. And I know we had talked, know the quote unquote voices in our love. You call yours Frank. Tell us, what about Frank. Kevin: Frank's a ************. I do want to say where Frank's name came from. I'm a big Tom Waits fan, and he has a record from 1983 called Frank's Wild Years. And there's a song on there, I believe. No, I'm sorry. 1983 was swordfish Trump bones with a song called Frank's Wild Years. He then had a record called Frank's Wild Years in 1987. Anyway, the song Frank's wild Years is a spoken word song about this dude who's just a **** and crazy and likes to drink Mickey's big mouths and burns down a house. And so I thought, that seems like the type of voice I've got going on in my head. And it's not that I hear voices. I'm lucky that I do not struggle with that. It's that it's my inner critic. Right? Critic being the nicest word I could ever say about Frank because he's much worse than he. For example, many times I've talked to somebody and I'm talking to them, and Frank is literally saying, you ******* idiot. They don't care what you're saying. You're not saying it right. You said, um, too many times. What the **** are you not. Just shut up, Kevin. Nobody wants to hear from you. Why don't you just go over there? I mean, it's just constant, constant. Host/Lisa: Hey, I have a Karen. I have a Karen. Kevin: Karen. There you go. Host/Lisa: Yeah. And my apologies to any listeners who are named Karen, but, yeah, my voice is Karen, and she's really annoying. I wouldn't say that she's always in my head criticizing me, but she's. She's calling me a dumb *** quite often for a variety of things. And I don't know if that's normal. I'd like to know how many people have that negative self talk going on. Kevin: My best guess is this. I think that there are variations of it, just like there are variations on most things. And I think certain people, it's very quiet, right? And then certain people, it's very loud. And I think a good example of this is something I've noticed about myself the last couple of years. I'm holding up my phone here, and I misplace that thing all the time. And it doesn't help that when I'm on the phone almost all the time, I have my wireless headphones on. So I'm walking around, and often I say out loud to myself when I can't find it, I say things, and I'm not kidding, things like, Kevin, you're a failure. Kevin, you idiot. Out loud. And then I've learned to stop and say, well, it's just a phone, so maybe not. But even this morning, I'm currently in a hotel room. And even this morning, as I went to leave, I had left the bolt lock thing on. So I opened the door and it caught, and it gave me a start. And I said, before I even thought about it, I said, ******* idiot. Come on. About something like that, right? And I'm not saying, feel sorry for me. Please don't think that that type of negative self talk throughout the day about something as innocuous as a bolt lock. It adds up for people, and it really can be very difficult to deal with. Host/Lisa: And I think especially, we're talking about mental health here. To hear ourselves talking to ourselves. I mean, the person that we spend the most time with, that we should love the most, and we talk the trashiest, too. That's not good on a good day, when life is good, but when we're in the worst of it. Yeah. I can't imagine anything worse. And yet we do it all the time. All the time. Kevin: It's almost as if. Have you thought about why we do it all the time? Do you have any hypotheses about that? Host/Lisa: I do, and I don't know if it fits or not. I think growing up, I was the kid. I was never an outsider, per se, but I was never one of the cool kids. I was always on the periphery, moved around a lot. There was a variety of reasons, but I found that acceptance, a lot of times came from self depreciating humor. Kevin: Yes. I'm sorry. I'm nodding, but yes. Host/Lisa: Yeah. And I feel like that has just stuck. Even though logically, I'm a reasonably intelligent human being, logically, I know that that is damaging logically. I know that I'm not stupid. I flub up. I do silly things. I'm a human being, but I catch myself on the daily just trash talking myself. And that's why I wonder, does everybody do. Kevin: Very, I think it's got to be on a know and know. I've had therapists say to me, well, now I'll explain a situation to them and I'll be like, I'm so mad at myself about X, Y or Z. And they'll say, well, Kevin, what would happen if your good friend came to you and said that they were in this situation? I'd say, well, that makes sense. That's normal. They're going to be fine. And they said, well, what's the difference between them and you? And I say, oh, well, I can't give myself that break. I don't really know. The best answer I could come up with is I still think it's some form of control. I still think, think that I am in some way exercising control over the situation by putting myself down. And I think that's foolish. But I think that at some point these voices develop in our heads and maybe they had a small need at that time that they met, but these patterns develop in our brains and then we grow and they stay and they get larger and larger and larger and larger. And so getting out of those patterns is a whole other thing. Host/Lisa: Well, and I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I read something a month or so ago and it keeps coming up daily in my life because I think it's so true. We do more of what we do more of and we get better at what we do more of. So, for example, if you trash talk yourself on the daily, that's a habit, right? It's a habit and it's something that I'm guessing would be as hard to stop doing as smoking or going on a diet or changing your eating habits, whatever. And you'd think of, I've been doing this for a number of decades now, right? So this isn't going to be something that I just read about, think about, hear about and go, oh, I'm so done that, right. And I think, yeah, it's something that I would like to stop and I would like to see you stop and I would like to see everybody who's struggling with that because it doesn't help us. Right. And even I think about raising kids, our kids definitely will all the time follow what we do more than follow what we say, right? So if mom is constantly looking in the mirror. I'm too fat, I've got to go on a diet, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? Kids are going to probably start saying, particularly daughters. And same thing with the self depreciation, right? Kids are going to grow up hearing that, too. So, yeah, something that we've got to stop. But let's change direction a little bit here. You and I had talked about this a little bit before we jumped on, and I love your sarcasm. Honestly. Like your sarcasm and humor. What? Do you think that the place, or do you think that humor has a place with mental health and why? Kevin: Absolutely. I think that humor has a place most places in the world. And then I'm going to say the word place again. Place. Place. So humor, I had, a long time ago, I had a realization, which was the only thing, there's so many things befuddling in life and so many things befuddling in the world, that the only thing that seems to make sense in any situation is kindness every time, 100%. But I think a close second is humor. And humor absolutely has a place in mental health, because if we take ourselves, in my opinion, if we take ourselves too seriously, we're in for a difficult road, because you have to laugh at yourself. And the way that I get through all the painful things that I've been through in my life is dark humor. I have to laugh at it. And before we got on, I told you about that thing that my mom said. And basically, I said to my mom, oh, I know why I was around. So she has a very dark sense of humor. We're at the Mayo clinic, and she's here. She has cancer. And I said, mom, I'm thinking about writing a travel diary for this. And she goes, oh, you can call it before my mom died. And that right there is a home run to me. I think that's perfect, because, well, we're all going to die anyway, so humor has to be there, because humor also elicits joy. Humor makes you laugh. I think of the movie airplane a lot. That's my favorite movie of all time. And that movie makes more sense to me than most anything I've seen, because it's so absurd all of the time, and it's so funny. And if we take not only ourselves too seriously, but the whole world around us, again, it's going to be tough going. I think so. I think there is that line you have to walk with people, because some people are different steps in their mental health journey, and they're not comfortable with the humor around it. And so on sad times, we do have levity when appropriate. There are times where humor maybe is not appropriate, but most of the time, I firmly, firmly, firmly believe it is going back to the self deprecating humor that you were talking about a moment ago. The summer of 1995, I got really obsessed with David Letterman because I could stay up late. I didn't have to get up to go school so I could watch his show. And he is Mr. Self deprecation. That's, like, all his humor is. That and irony, all day, every day. And it really struck a chord with me, and I thought it was really funny because it also keeps people off guard. But it shows. I like that guy because he doesn't think he's better than anybody or any of that. Right? So humor is unbelievably important to me. Host/Lisa: Do you seek funny things out, or do you seek things out that make you chuckle or laugh? Kevin: Not as often as I should, actually. My favorite thing in art is sadness. And the reason I say that is sadness. When I see sadness being put back to me in art, it makes my life make sense. It makes me feel less alone. Now, I know a lot of people, they need only an escape, and their escape is, oh, I'm going to go watch a comedy. Makes sense. I think that I could do more of that. But then Frank comes in and says, well, you're not doing enough. Why are you watching that Instagram reel? You should be reading. You should be writing. Apparently arithmetic, too. Reading, writing, arithmetic. And I don't allow myself that break for that joy. But that's a mistake on my part, I think, and that's a pattern I've learned. So I do seek out certain things. I love comedy, but I think it has to be curated around what mood I'm in, if that makes any sense. Host/Lisa: No, I think I understand that completely. My thing is I don't allow myself to have fun until all the work is done. All the things on the list are all crossed off. The dishwasher is empty. Is that stuff ever all done? No. So I find myself always having a reason not to go and have the fun. So, a little bit different from funny, seeking out humor, but along the same lines. And not to blame anybody, but that was kind of ingrained in me growing up. To be successful, you got to work first and play when there's time. And I've kind of become an unfun person, I want to say. And I just wonder if, again, these are ingrained thoughts or if it's a control thing or why we get into those habits. Kevin: You. Host/Lisa: If you're loving the show, I want to hear your feedback. Take a screenshot showing your five star rating and that you're subscribed to us on Apple Podcast or are following us on Spotify. Then head over to the rising strong podcast Facebook page, hit the message button and send it my way. You'll be entered to win some rising strong swag. I will draw one name at the end of each month. Good luck, and thanks for listening. Kevin: Well, I think a couple of things. These couple thoughts come to mind with one, I think you're a fun person, so stop that bullshit. Two, the human condition. Everybody says human nature, human condition. I think one of the things in the human condition that we don't acknowledge often is overcorrection. So we see something and say, I'm going to do better or I'm going to do that more. And we overcorrect. And usually it's like a pendulum. We go way the hell over here, and then we're like, we beat ourselves up or whatever, and we start to realize through the mental health work, et cetera. Okay, we got to come back over here. Not everything's the end of the world, to use your example, if I don't empty the dishwasher before I have a glass of wine and watch airplane, the other thing is, I think I've lost it. So overcorrection is one of them. And I think that, oh, nuance. Nuance is a word that has a meaning, but that meaning does not seem to be appearing in a lot of the culture anymore. Nuance is. Do you know the US show Yellowstone? Host/Lisa: Yes. Kevin: So I watched the first episode of that, and that's all I've watched. And I got done with the episode. I said, you know what? That show doesn't have any. And it's nuanced. It's just beating you over the head with it, which is fine, but when having complicated discussions about mental health, about the way we treat ourselves, people forget about the nuance of it and that it's not all or nothing all of the time. Host/Lisa: Right? Kevin: Yes. I was told the same thing. You got to work hard to get ahead, et cetera. Yes, of course, but there are limits to that. And the easiest example I can do of that is I've got this bottle of water. There is a way that you can overdose on water. If you drink too much water, you drown your cells. So let me get back to work on that. I never learned to swim, so that'll help with that. Host/Lisa: There we go. Yeah. When we talked before as well. You said that you really struggle with self doubt and impostor syndrome. And I guess that kind of ties all into what we've been talking about here today as well. Like that Frank guy. Is he playing a role in that? Kevin: Oh, yeah. Frank is the president, CEO, CFO, COO of the Kevin Self Doubt Institute, and he has built quite a massive I. So I did a writing exercise a number of years back where I started to write a letter to Frank. Okay. So I'm typing it out, I'm writing it, and then I started to let Frank's responses get typed out. And I would quickly switch to italic and it would be Frank's response then back to me, non italic. By the end of the letter was like the last page was all italics, which is him just beating me down. Host/Lisa: Wow. Kevin: Yeah. And it went out with my Christmas card and I lost a lot of friends. I'm just kidding. I don't send Christmas cards. I've always wanted to send a Christmas card where it's just me looking very confused and angry and alone, and just send it to people and be like, happy holidays. Because I think that'd be ******* hilarious. But I digress. Host/Lisa: Well, honestly, yeah, I dare you. Double dog dare you. Kevin: I also was taught to save your money when I was a kid. So Frank says to me, see, Frank takes. Frank is not interested in nuance either. So Frank's like, you're not going to spend that money on that. What are you going to do? You're going to waste your money on a joke like that? Which wouldn't be a waste, as we just talked about for ten minutes, because it would make people laugh. And laughter is great. Host/Lisa: So true. Do you have this thought that you need to, quote unquote, fix your anxiety, fix your mental health, fix anything about you? Or have you kind of gotten to this place where this is me, this is Kevin, and I accept that. Here's me. Kevin: I think I'm probably more in the latter. I think I've spent a lot of my time trying to fix it or trying to understand it, and by understanding it, think that I have control over it, when really control is an illusion. So I think I mostly accept it. I think where that gets dangerous is. So I've been diagnosed with OCD. And to put too much of how you see yourself in your diagnosis or how you view yourself gets to be if you're accepting of it, but at the same time, say, I am OCD, Kevin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Again, nuance over correction gets you into trouble. I feel less about needing to fix it because I have done a lot of work through therapy, through medication, working out, et cetera. That helps me balance that. And it's helped me understand that who I am is not just my anxiety, but an anxiety. I've heard a lot of my mentors or people who I look up to call it a superpower, right? So my OCD, it can be debilitating, but it also has led me to accomplish a lot of stuff because it does keep me focused and driven and et cetera. So I don't think that I necessarily need to fix it as much anymore. Although Frank is telling me, and I'm not kidding, Frank is telling me right now, no, you do need to fix it. Be honest, Kevin. You always feel like you are not doing enough. So the version of me that I like, the non frank version, right, is saying everything's okay, but there's still work that I need to do to allow myself to sit quietly with that feeling that everything is okay and not have to immediately jump on top of it and make changes to it. Does that make sense? Host/Lisa: I think so. First of all, I think, can you fire Frank? He might be the CEO, but maybe it's time to give him the boot. Kevin: I've tried. The board of directors won't let me, which is just a bunch of mini franks. The ************ cloned himself, too. And look, he's not good company, and he's not funny, but it becomes so intense that I want anything but to feel that. And I think that is kind of one of the dirty little secrets about people with severe anxiety is they know they're not in their right mind when they think, I'll do anything to not feel this. But it is very. So uncomfortable that we just want to do anything. And so what we do, which perpetuates it, is we try to fight that thought or that feeling which invites the thought to stay. And then you just start doing this instead of just sitting with the thought, right. And then letting the thought dissipate on its own. I call it the voice, then I call it the anxiety, and then I call it a world. So what I mean is, the voice will say something. Here's an example. In a workplace, my boss comes in and says, kevin, can you pop in my office for a second? Right. My voice says, she's mad at you. You're going to get fired. Which causes a feeling of anxiety. That anxiety is that unease we feel, which is actually a. What's the word I want? Evolutionary trait. Right. To save us. But it is bastardized and magnified. So then you get that feeling which causes you to create a world to stop that feeling in your brain, and it happens in like 4 seconds. So it goes, Kevin, can you come step in my office for a second? I'm going to be fired. Oh, God, what am I going to do? You start to feel something, and then all of a sudden, in the world, you're walking out after having packed a box of your stuff and being ashamed as you walk by everybody because you've lost your job. And all that happens almost always way faster than we even know it's happened. And then what happens? What happens is we, I think at least I, more often than not in my life, have clung on to the world I've created and forgotten about which. He just popped her head in my office. Even so, in this example that I go into the office and I'm like. And not literally shaking, but very afraid, and they're like, oh, we just wanted to let you know that next Tuesday we're going to be closed, whatever it may be. And you're like, oh. And so it's like a push, pull, push, pull, push, pull. And that goes on for so many people all day, every day, and often, unfortunately, because so many people are parents and they're worried about paying their bills, and they're worried about, obviously, their children, maybe other members of their family, friends. They don't even have the time or the luxury to sit back and say, well, now let's follow that train of thought in my mind there for a moment. I did this, this, and this. Oh, wow. That's what happened. I created this whole world when that world didn't exist, if that makes sense. Host/Lisa: Yeah. Been there. Been there. You and I talked about this, I think, on your podcast, and I don't know if anybody else finds it helpful, but I would ask myself, is this the end of the world? Like this thought I'm having this worry I'm having. Is this the end of the world? And most of the time, the answer was no. The world will not end if I get fired. The world will not end if the garage doesn't get organized. I know. Yes. Talk about OCD. Yes, I've had panic attacks over. The garage will not be organized by this weekend like I had planned. Yes, this is true. But in my family, we've also had the worst possible thing happen to us. I mean, we've lost a child in a car accident. And that has also changed my perspective on things as well, because, frankly, I don't think anything can compare to that. So I feel like I've been through the worst. So other than, God forbid, losing another member of my family, my son, for example, anything else is survivable, but a lot of it is perspective. Kevin: Perspective. I love that word. I love the value in perspective. Having perspective, it's one of the most valuable things in the world, but it's really there on time. Host/Lisa: Oh, 100%. Kevin: And I think the way that you and I are saying that in a very solemn, accepting way says a lot about both of us. Right. To know that we are closer to forgiving ourselves for that than we may have been, as you said, 20 or 30 years ago. To say, you know what? I didn't do as well today. I'm going to try again tomorrow. Host/Lisa: Even just being aware of Frank and know, just being aware of the negative chatter, being aware of the habits, being, you know, even after you say it, Lisa, you dumbass. Yeah, okay. That's not serving me well. Awareness, right. I'm going to try not to say that anymore. Or being aware of just the terrible things that we do for ourselves and to ourselves. I think first we have to be aware, and then we have to believe that change is possible and that a change would be in our best interest. So, for know, kicking Karen to the curb when she shows up or being able to just have that perspective on the spot, which is really hard. But when Karen shows know, it's like, okay, shut up, I'm done. Kevin: I sometimes say that out loud. I don't know if you do. Oh, I do. You're not welcome here, or shut up. And that's why I can't go to Kroger anymore. But I say it out loud because it's almost as if it's like I'm now putting my foot down and we're moving forward. Right. Host/Lisa: Right. Kevin: I love what you said about awareness and then belief. And belief is similar to hope. And if you believe that things can get better, then I think the third thing is the actions and the work. Because the thing is, people always say, well, knowing is half the battle. To which I would say, well, often with my mental health struggles, I'm the Alexander the great of half the battle. But the other half, I don't have a ******* clue. I don't know how to change it. So awareness is the first step, and it's very difficult to have the awareness. But there's also that second step. Well, I guess third step, because second step is believing, and then third step of doing the work to make the change. So you can do it differently going forward, but it's hard, man. Host/Lisa: Oh, absolutely. I think that's why a lot of us are in this club. Right? It's because it's not easy. It's not something you can read one book about or listen to one podcast episode or go to one counseling therapy session. It's an ongoing process, but I think that segues perfectly into my next question, and that is, what do you do to help yourself? Kevin: Exercise. So, when the pandemic hit, I had been going to gyms for a while, and I would do, like, the elliptical or things like that for the cardio part. Well, all the gyms closed, and I had a very stressful job at the time. And I said, well, I'm going to lose my ******* mind. And I hate running. But I was like, I got to run. So I'd start running, and I became a bit of a runner. And that helps a lot. That helps me clear my head. It helps me organize my thoughts, and it kind of tires me out. I think what a lot of people maybe who aren't as anxious don't realize about anxieties, is it is exhausting. I know somebody who has a puppy, and one of the ways that she keeps her puppy calm, especially if the weather is bad, is she gives them little puzzles to try to get the treats out because it engages their brain and it wears them out. It's the same thing with anxiety. You could see somebody sitting there all day worrying, and then they're like, God, I'm exhausted. And they're like, you didn't do anything, but your body becomes so exhausted from the use of your brain. And so running not only enriches your brain, it allows your brain to reorient itself, very much like. And so exercise is a big one for me, writing. If I am able to get over the frank Hump, I guess we'll call it, which sounds terrible, if I can get over the frank Hump and actually write. I always write to figure something out. And one of my favorite things about writing is you start to write, and then it could be a couple of sentences or a couple of paragraphs. You're writing about something you had no idea you were going to write about, because it just comes because it's allowing those thoughts to flow freely. So exercise writing, and then mental health advocacy and making sure that people through the sad Times podcast, through motivational speaking that I'm trying to do, making sure that allowing people to share their stories and be somebody who can be there to listen and serve people that way is another good, positive thing for me, because when I was a kid, I had all these racing thoughts, and I really thought, nobody's brain is like this. I'm insane. I don't know what to do. I felt so isolated, so alone. And then I found out no other people go through this. And there was such an unbelievable relief to learn that I was not the only one going through this. And it wasn't relief that others were suffering. It was relief that I was not alone. And that's why I think stories are the great healing currency of humankind, because they help us feel less alone. So I guess those things. And reading, ******* reading. I'd always rather be reading. Always. And this phone ***** that up a little bit. But sometimes I'll put the phone in another room and I'll just sit with a book for an hour or whatever. People say, oh, I don't have time for reading, to which I say, well, you can make time for reading. Host/Lisa: Yeah. Kevin: Point for me to say, for somebody who has maybe two jobs and children, right? That's different. But somebody, maybe in my position, who has no children, you can always make time for reading. And I believe that we as a society, the greatest thing we ever did as a society was not invent the wheel, although that has helped. It was public libraries, because public libraries allow people to congregate. They allow people to understand ideas they'd never thought of. I think at the Chicago public library where I used to go almost daily, there was a quote from Oprah Winfrey on the wall that said something to the effect of getting my library card was like getting my citizenship. And so reading, understanding new ideas, being challenged by ideas, it is very good for me, and I think it's good for us as a race of people. Host/Lisa: Well, I think on some level, it circles back to what you had said earlier about the power of stories. And, I mean, to me, a book is a story, even if it's not a fictitious boy meets girl, whatever, or the three little pigs. A book is still a story, even if it's all based on fact. That's all about World War II or all about politics or all about whatever. It's a story. And I think our stories are very powerful. And what I have learned in the advocacy space as well is that when we tell our story, it allows other people to feel safe telling theirs. How many times have you shared a story where you've said, gosh, I really struggle with anxiety or this or that, and somebody else says, oh, my God, me too. Let me tell you about that. Yeah. Kevin: That's so well said. And one of the great parts of stories. And being human. Host/Lisa: Yeah. So I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to say that not the greatest thing is not maybe libraries, but the old campfire when we were cave people, instead of clubbing each other over the head at night, we were maybe grunting out a story or using our stick to draw a story in the dirt, because that's how the information was brought forward. Kevin: Yes, but to satirize the years I've spent in corporate culture. But is that scalable, Lisa? Host/Lisa: No, it is not. Kevin: Good Lord. Anyway, no, I think that's a very fair point. And I take your point. I think it's. Yeah. Instead of clubbing yourself over the head with it, using the club to draw in the sand or somehow to write on the wall with it. Right. Host/Lisa: There you go. See? Look at how far we've come. Look at how far. Yeah. Kevin: I mean, we've got bottled water. We pay like $3 for it, right? Yeah. Host/Lisa: What gives you hope, Kevin? Kevin: Kindness. Kindness gives me hope above all else. I think I'll use your phrasing. It's not the end of the world that gives me hope. I think for me personally, the more I learn about how the universe was made, the more I learn about my infantile spec spot in. It gives me hope. It makes me realize now, it makes you realize not everything is that big of a deal now. I still have my emotions, I still have my reactions, et cetera. So I still struggle with that. That gives me hope. Kindness, humor, gives me hope. The fact that we are able to change gives me hope. And I think mortality gives me some hope. And what I mean by that is if you read Walt Whitman, who I adore, it helps you focus on now instead of them. And that is hopeful to me. Host/Lisa: That is powerful. You're right. Kevin: I think I fail at that most of the time, but it does help me get there when I need to. Host/Lisa: What about resilience? What does resilience mean to you? Kevin: Resilience is, again, I'm going to go back to kindness. It's forgiveness. It's quite literally persistence. Maybe I use that grammatically wrong. Literally. I wrote it down on that sheet. What else did I put down? Host/Lisa: Trying to be more empathetic. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: Laughing at myself and the world. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: Trying to be kind to myself. It's not easy. Kevin: It is not easy. But as I've gotten older, as I've done some work in therapy, as I've tried to make changes to my patterns, I've learned that beating myself down is the opposite of resilience, and forgiving myself is kind of quintessential resilience. But, man, is it hard. It's very difficult, yeah. Host/Lisa: But it's like riding a bike, and only in the sense that we fall down a lot when we're first learning. And we just have to keep getting on that **** thing, right? Yeah, we're all scabbed up and scarred up. You just keep getting back on it. Right. A little farther the next time before you fall off. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: So, we haven't really talked about your podcast sad times yet. So before we wrap things up here, can you give us a little synopsis of sad times and what you do over there? Kevin: Sure. So, sad Times is a podcast that was actually born out of my one man show. I did that one man show in 2017. It was called invisible now from the Dylan lyric, you're invisible now. You got no secrets to conceal. And in the show, the idea of the show was, you know, it would be funny is if I did a show where I talked about all the weird **** I've been afraid of. And I'm talking about, like, when I was a kid, I was afraid I was going to stick my head in a tornado siren and lose my hearing, to which everybody goes, well, just don't stick your head in a tornado siren said, ah, you're missing the point. I was afraid for a good long while, I was going to die in the electric chair. I had a full on panic attack about that in Chicago. My poor dad didn't know what the **** to do. And the goal of the show was, here's my weird ****, very much like what you just said. Here's my story. And then people say, oh, my God, I feel the same way. And I partnered with a mental health organization in the city of Chicago, and I was doing the show. And after one show, I came out, there was a woman standing there with her daughter who was maybe 1819, I don't know. And she introduced herself, said, hi, my name is. And I. Shame on me. I don't remember her name. I work with Cathedral counseling, which is who I worked with, and said, this is my daughter. And I looked to my right where she was, and she had tears in her eyes. And she all. All her life, she's been trying to explain to me what's going on with her brain. And then at the end of the show, she pointed and said, that's what's happening. And that was one of the best moments of my entire life ever. Because again, it helps people feel less alone. It helps them feel less ashamed of what they're going through. And that was wonderful. So I did that show. And then a friend of mine approached me. He was trying to build a streaming channel on Twitch. He said, I want you to do your show. Said, you know, I've already done that. And then one night I got drunk and we stopped by his house. I said, all right, here's my idea. I want to have people come on the show, and I wanted them to talk about sad, difficult times in their life. And what I don't want to do is try to fix it. I don't want to diagnose it, and I don't want to judge it. I just want them to talk about it. And the goal here is to help people feel less. So it was originally a twitch streaming show, and then due to life changes having to move and stuff, we turned it into a podcast. And so each week we have a kind and generous guest come on and talk about those extremely difficult times in their life. And I know it's called sad times, but it's really about the stories and about listening, wherever you are listening to that story and hearing something and saying, oh, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. You can find us at wwW, which means worldwide web, sadtimespodcast.com or on Instagram at sadtimespodcast. At the website, you can listen all episodes. You can register to be a guest. There's some other cool stuff. We have a blog where we do guest blogs, et cetera. So that's what sad times is. Host/Lisa: Actually, I have to say, your website is very robust. Very robust. Kevin: Oh, thank you,. Host/Lisa: kevin, I have enjoyed this so much. Thank you so much for coming on today. Kevin: Thank you for having me. I truly appreciate it. And I love the work that you're doing, and you're just kicking *** and taking names. So congratulations to you and thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. So thank you. Host/Lisa: And to my listeners, stay well and be resilient, and we will catch you next time. In season two of the rising strong podcast, I'll be dropping two episodes every week. The first will be interview style, dropped on Tuesday, and the second will be a deep dive into a specific topic of mental health, which will be dropped on Fridays. So if you have a certain topic that you'd like me to discuss, please reach out. And if I use your topic or your idea, I will shout you out on social media and your name will be entered to win some sweet rising strong swag. So thanks in advance and thanks for listening!

Kev and Jonnie talk about a number of demos they have tried recently. Timings 00:00:12: Theme Tune 00:00:43: Intro 00:02:46: Feedback 00:07:29: What Have We Been Up To 00:25:41: News 00:33:12: Demo Bonanza 00:33:21: Lightyear Frontier 00:43:04: Southfield 00:50:19: Rusty’s Retirement 00:57:36: Mika And The Witch’s Mountain 01:04:11: Outro Links Rusty’s Retirement Vertical Moment Ikonei Island Info Update Kynseed Big Build Update Farming Simulator 23 Content Update #23 Outbound Steam Page Outbound Kickstarter Page Lightyear Frontier Southfield Rusty’s Retirement Mika and the Witch’s Mountain Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:00) Al: Just before we get into this week’s episode, I need to apologize. We had a few audio issues in this episode, so yeah, sorry for that. We’ll get them sorted for next time. (0:00:44) Kevin: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season my name is Kevin, and I’m joined by our beautiful co-host (0:00:55) Kevin: There you go and today we’re here to talk about the cottagecore games whoo and all that (0:01:03) Kevin: More specifically actually we have a sampling platter of (0:01:08) Kevin: cottagecore games today because we (0:01:11) Kevin: Went out and tried some demos (0:01:14) Kevin: You know we’re gonna have I think we played with two each (0:01:20) Kevin: So there’s gonna be a yeah a good just good amount of discussion on different games (0:01:26) Kevin: But before we get into all of that (0:01:30) Kevin: Transcripts are available in the show notes and on the website as per the always (0:01:35) Kevin: And of course we’re going to get to the news and all that stuff as usual (0:01:43) Kevin: Also, oh, we should note… (0:01:44) Kevin: that Al is here in America, where I am, so, you know, I’m looking forward to hearing his misadventures. (0:01:52) Kevin: I’m just assuming he’s just smothered in burgers right now, as is the tradition. (0:02:01) Jonnie: I assume he’s smothered in tipping eggs. (0:02:05) Kevin: Oh man, yeah that’d be good, he’s just not gonna go to any restaurants, he’s gonna stick (0:02:14) Jonnie: Honestly, it would so put me off of having to travel to America is like, ‘cause A, tipping is stupid, and B, the anxiety of it, I’m just like, “Nah.” (0:02:22) Jonnie: I don’t need to deal with that. (0:02:22) Kevin: See, look, the easiest way to do it, a pro tip for all, but, well, okay, sure. (0:02:26) Jonnie: It’s not Visit America. (0:02:30) Kevin: If you are, somehow, find yourself visiting America, the pro tip is just do the credit card if you can, because then you just write it in, and nobody has to see, nobody has to know, and it’s all there. (0:02:44) Kevin: And you’ll never see them again, so, you know, it’s fine. (0:02:46) Kevin: Okay. (0:02:47) Kevin: Let’s see. (0:02:48) Kevin: stuff though, um, we actually have some feedback? (0:02:53) Jonnie: - Yeah, some feedback from, or I guess a correction from, (0:02:56) Jonnie: or corrections were the wrong thing. (0:02:57) Jonnie: Something that Al and I missed last week when we covered “Turn Up the Boy Robs a Bank” (0:03:03) Jonnie: is that there are actually accessibility options. (0:03:07) Jonnie: Neither of us picked up that those were in there and it changes quite significantly, (0:03:13) Jonnie: I think some of my criticism of the game. (0:03:17) Jonnie: So I can’t remember all of the accessibility options off the top of my head, (0:03:20) Jonnie: but I talked a lot about how I really hated the way (0:03:24) Jonnie: that gaming works in the game. (0:03:25) Jonnie: And one of the accessibility options is automatic aiming, (0:03:28) Jonnie: which I think is a really good accessibility option for this game. (0:03:29) Kevin: Yeah, oh that is a good (0:03:32) Jonnie: If you’re into the “Turn Up the Boy” sort of law, I guess, (0:03:37) Jonnie: and want to experience it, (0:03:38) Jonnie: like it feels like a good option for that. (0:03:41) Jonnie: So just want to highlight that that’s something that we missed and it’s a cool thing that they have. (0:03:42) Kevin: Yeah (0:03:47) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely cuz like you mentioned the calm I I’m the claim I didn’t play turn of boy myself, but my brother played and I witnessed most of it (0:03:56) Kevin: the combat is the weaker portion, right the the highlights the humor and the (0:04:03) Kevin: You know the chaoticness going on so kind of sidestepping that that was a good call (0:04:09) Kevin: Yeah, so good good stuff turn it boy good on you first (0:04:14) Jonnie: Yeah, and the other thing that we’ve got to talk about, so Elle and I talked about this last week, Kiv, but it would be sacrilegious to not get your take on what you think about wildflowers being on the April 1st. (0:04:27) Kevin: Well, first, my reaction, and I think I put it in the slash, is 3 and a half grand! (0:04:35) Kevin: Oh my goodness, I had no idea, like, oh my gosh, I know Apple products are pricey/overpriced, but holy moly. (0:04:44) Kevin: Now, I didn’t, I have to see the, what the farming looked like. (0:04:50) Kevin: Looks like it’s an interesting way of doing it, but I think all in all that sounds good. (0:04:55) Kevin: It’s, it’s so weird though because like, Wildflowers is very narrative/character driven, right? (0:05:05) Kevin: Which isn’t generally speaking the focus in a first-person/VR type game, but like you guys said, it, (0:05:12) Jonnie: So have you seen have you seen how the implementation? (0:05:16) Kevin: here, let me look, I’m gonna look it up right now, but I mean, overall though, I think it’s (0:05:20) Kevin: good to do it. I do think VR/augmented reality is a good idea overall. I think we’ll get there eventually, and so, you know, each baby step like this in different formats or different ways is, (0:05:42) Jonnie: Yeah, because I guess how it works is it’s less first person and it’s more like having it up on a screen, you know, kind of like one of the many screens that you can place around with the (0:05:50) Kevin: Right. Okay. That’s what the farming looks like. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s what it is. Okay, that is (0:05:51) Jonnie: Apple Vision Pro and you can… (0:06:01) Kevin: It looks pretty cool. Um, I (0:06:05) Kevin: like the (0:06:07) Kevin: Yeah, no the farming bit look yeah, obviously like putting it in a (0:06:13) Kevin: On a screen like that is the way to go (0:06:16) Kevin: And the farming having the plots because it’s very the (0:06:21) Kevin: simple and very square slash grid like right so I think this is a good one for that (0:06:28) Kevin: because it’d be so easy to control you like it there’s not a lot of (0:06:34) Kevin: difficulties in in managing the farming aspect so that’s cool um and on top of that eventually you can automate some of that stuff so you can just skip it out right um but yeah now that looks uh Looks great. It’s I’m so happy (0:06:51) Kevin: Wildflowers is getting a second third win whatever whatever win we’re at (0:06:56) Kevin: With the the small DLC update and now this vision pro stuff (0:07:01) Kevin: I’m curious how much longer they’re gonna keep up the development (0:07:05) Kevin: But I’m here (0:07:08) Kevin: You know, I’m here for the long haul. I haven’t fired it up in a while immediately But I’ll wait till they announce maybe they’re done with everything and then see what’s going on (0:07:18) Kevin: All right (0:07:20) Kevin: Okay, so that’s that some of the (0:07:23) Kevin: House cleaning with the tend to from last episode, but now let’s talk about what we’ve been up to more recently Johnny I’ll let you go first. What have you been up to? (0:07:31) Jonnie: What have I been up to? (0:07:34) Jonnie: Because there’s been a lot of demos and trying out a lot of stuff, I feel like I’ve sort of reverted back to some comfy kind of nostalgia games in the past week. (0:07:43) Jonnie: I’ve been playing Diablo 4, partly because it’s something that I can play with friends and I moved countries recently, so it’s a nice game to do that. (0:07:54) Jonnie: But maybe more funnily, the reason we started playing Diablo 4 is because Diablo 4 has been the news a lot in the last week because they’ve been doing (0:08:01) Jonnie: very expensive cosmetic items that has generated a lot of media attention and I keep seeing headlines like Diablo 4 enters microtransaction hell and it’s silly things right like your town portal can change colour and I think it’s like you know 50 bucks or whatever for that cosmetic and it’s not entirely fair framing because I believe it comes with some of their (0:08:27) Jonnie: Premium or quite a bit of their premium currency as well (0:08:31) Jonnie: So you can can purchase other things but the thing that’s really kind of striking to me is the (0:08:38) Jonnie: The narrative around this is kind of describing it like it’s a bad thing look, if there are people out there that want to pay $50 for a (0:08:48) Jonnie: Cosmetic item that has like it’s not even on your character as you’re running around playing the game It’s literally the thing that you use to get to and from (0:08:56) Jonnie: locations. It’s not that significant in the game. And if people want to spend that amount… (0:09:01) Jonnie: for that cosmetic and that enables the developer. And I’m putting aside who the developer is and all of those sorts of things because I don’t really want to get into that discussion. But if this extends the life of the game and they’re doing seasonal gameplay and… (0:09:13) Kevin: What’s there to discuss about Activision Blizzard? (0:09:17) Jonnie: Yeah, let’s just avoid that one altogether. But if people want to pay a lot for those sort of things, and it means I as a casual player jumping in feel no need to spend money on any of that and it means I can keep investing in (0:09:31) Jonnie: developing new content for these games then great like I feel as a just for the campaign portion of the game it is fully justified as a full press game I had a lot of fun playing the campaign and if this is how they want to monetize the long life of the game go for it like the game is still very fun I have a good time of the I have a good time playing with friends I just find a lot of the narrative around ongoing monetization if we accept that that is part of the reality of games now this is (0:10:01) Jonnie: probably the least predatory way to do (0:10:04) Kevin: Oh absolutely. My two questions are, one, all the news I heard about what little I did was about the cosmetic stuff, but is there any stuff that boosts gameplay or effects mechanics or anything like that? Okay. Okay. Yeah. (0:10:22) Jonnie: no no so so it’s all yeah it’s all purchasable cosmetics yeah none of it really affects gameplay (0:10:34) Kevin: Okay, well then that’s yeah, all right who cares then also can you earn premium currency by playing or do you just have? (0:10:44) Jonnie: uh I feel like you can but I also feel like you earn even and I might be wrong um but I feel like even if you do earn premium currency it’s at a rate that’s so slow that you might as well not earn it at all because you would have to like I don’t know how you would actually save up enough of it to purchase anything uh but I can’t remember if that premium currency is actually locked behind um like a paid season pass thing so I can’t remember if it’s locked behind (0:11:04) Kevin: It’s a word. (0:11:14) Jonnie: a slightly different version of a paywall or if those are some of the the free tiers (0:11:22) Kevin: Right. Okay. Well, they, uh, like you said, who cares, right? It’s cosmetic. (0:11:26) Kevin: So whatever. (0:11:27) Jonnie: Exactly (0:11:29) Jonnie: And maybe i’m just like slightly biased, you know, because you and I both play marvel snap and that’s their approach as well Right you you generally you don’t pay to unlock cards Well, you cannot do like spending money on the game does increase the rate that you unlock cards somewhat, but not (0:11:34) Kevin: Yeah. (0:11:44) Kevin: Right, but it’s not explicitly you don’t pay money for a card exactly. It’s generally speaking just a (0:11:53) Kevin: cosmetic that happens to get you resources that can help you generate new parts, but (0:11:59) Kevin: But yeah, no, no. Yeah, I understand (0:12:04) Kevin: I guess like I think about you know Marvel snap is actually a very apt comparison because there’s (0:12:10) Kevin: Explicitly the price tag a hundred dollar bundles. I think there’s one going (0:12:13) Jonnie: Mm-hmm, yep. (0:12:14) Kevin: on right now. And yeah it doesn’t bother me like sometimes it’s a really cool one that I kind of wish I had but it’s not the end of the world there’s plenty the game is still fun doesn’t affect it and there’s plenty of other cool cosmetics I can earn but yeah no I get you um good yeah all right good way of doing it I (0:12:39) Jonnie: Yeah, and and like so to kind of come back to the actual game you know, I’m having a lot of fun with Diablo as just a thing to jump on with friends and kill a bunch of stuff and (0:12:48) Jonnie: You know have a good time. And I think the thing that I really appreciate about Diablo 4 is level scaling So the they have level scaling so it doesn’t matter what level you are. You can play with your friends and it’s a really nice version (0:13:03) Jonnie: Yeah, so you can play with your friends like when we’re playing, you know, one of our friends was level 90 I think I was the lowest level, I was like. (0:13:09) Jonnie: At level 90, he was significantly more powerful than I was even though the mobs were sort of scaled for us, as you would expect. (0:13:21) Jonnie: But I think that’s kind of fine, right? (0:13:23) Jonnie: We were able to sort of play together and not have it be where I wasn’t doing anything, but he was also able to enjoy the fact that he had put a lot more time and effort into building a more powerful character. (0:13:37) Jonnie: I thought it’s it’s a really nice (0:13:42) Kevin: That’s that’s pretty impressive because that’s a very difficult balancing act to do (0:13:47) Jonnie: Yeah. (0:13:51) Jonnie: Yeah, and then the other thing I’ve been dipping my toe back into is Old School RuneScape. (0:13:56) Jonnie: I played Old School RuneScape when it was just RuneScape, and I love dipping my toe back into it every once in a while. (0:14:00) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:14:05) Jonnie: It’s such a goofy game. I love it. (0:14:06) Kevin: Oh man. (0:14:10) Kevin: It’s such a very distinct flavor. (0:14:13) Kevin: I was actually thinking about dipping back in just last week. (0:14:17) Kevin: I don’t remember why, but I might do that then. (0:14:20) Jonnie: Do it, Kiv. (0:14:22) Jonnie: Send me your username and I will add you and we can see each other online and oh my god, okay. (0:14:26) Kevin: Yeah. (0:14:27) Jonnie: I don’t know that you were an old-school RuneScape person, but please, please. (0:14:30) Kevin: Yeah, the middle, that was definitive middle school gaming. (0:14:37) Kevin: Yeah, what’d you do in the computer lab when you had the time or nobody caught you or whatever? (0:14:37) Jonnie: Exactly, yep, that was that was the A draw. (0:14:46) Jonnie: Oh, well maybe at some point we should do a greenhouse episode on Old School. (0:14:47) Kevin: Yeah, good stuff. (0:14:50) Kevin: I was thinking that I was about to say that stay tuned for Stay tuned for our RuneScape greenhouse! (0:14:56) Jonnie: Oh, yes. (0:14:58) Jonnie: Great. (0:14:59) Jonnie: Cool, alright, we’ll leave that one there then. (0:15:02) Kevin: I have a few things to talk about in the next episode of the M1C, but the M1C will be in the next episode of the M1C, but the M1C will be in the next episode of the M1C. (0:15:04) Jonnie: Kip, what have you been playing? (0:15:08) Kevin: Okay, it’s been a minute since I’ve been on, so I’ve got a few things. Actually, all the stuff kind of was in the last week. (0:15:16) Kevin: I’ve been playing a lot of games, I guess. (0:15:18) Kevin: First, shout out to Rainbow Road Radio, the Mario podcast host with mutual friend Alex. (0:15:24) Kevin: We covered Mario vs Donkey Kong, which came out just yesterday, well, from the time of M1C. (0:15:30) Kevin: I did not purchase the game myself, Alex did, but I played the demo. (0:15:36) Kevin: Have you played any of the Mario vs Donkey Kong games at all, Jonny? (0:15:40) Jonnie: I don’t even think I’ve ever heard of a Mario vs Donkey Kong game. (0:15:46) Kevin: Okay. So, it is, so right, the original Donkey Kong arcade game, right? The debut of both Mario and Donkey Kong. (0:15:56) Kevin: If they reinvented re-imag- I won’t even say that. (0:16:00) Kevin: This game was originally on the Game Boy Advance. They did a remake for the Switch, that’s what we discussed. (0:16:09) Kevin: It is a puzzle kind of platformer game. Essentially, you’re presented with a level with platforms and obstacles like spike pits, jumps you have to make, switches, things like that. (0:16:30) Kevin: It’s not a horizontal scrolling type level like standard mario’s, it’s just one screen. (0:16:38) Kevin: And you have to figure out the puzzle of how do I get to the key, what order do I have to clear these obstacles or flip these switches, and then you get the key to the door. (0:16:50) Kevin: And that’s kind of the gist of the gameplay. It’s fairly straightforward, but they add a lot of depth, they add a lot of obstacles and stuff like that. (0:16:58) Kevin: Um, the Switch Remake specifically… (0:17:00) Kevin: It’s very nice presentation (0:17:04) Kevin: The the game is the premise is centered around these little toys called mini marios (0:17:11) Kevin: So a lot of the games (0:17:13) Kevin: Enemies and things like that are toy versions of Mario enemies very cute very reminiscent of Link’s Awakening remake art style (0:17:22) Kevin: very colorful and fun I enjoyed the demo Alex enjoyed the game that he played thus far (0:17:30) Kevin: Yeah, check that out. That was that’s a fun one (0:17:34) Jonnie: Nice. I might have to check that out. I love a puzzle. (0:17:34) Kevin: aside from that (0:17:38) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s great and they added new stuff for the remake right so it’s got a substantial amount (0:17:45) Kevin: It’s not just a short GBA (0:17:49) Kevin: Venture Yeah, I definitely recommend at least people should check out the the trailers and stuff just to see how the cute little mini marios are (0:17:59) Jonnie: or people should check out rich road radio rainbow road radio (0:18:00) Kevin: And (0:18:04) Kevin: That your rainbow Road radio, that’s correct. No, don’t worry. I’ll be plugging that later (0:18:12) Kevin: Aside from that Disney speedstorm have you heard of this one Johnny? (0:18:16) Jonnie: I have not heard of this. (0:18:19) Kevin: Okay, it is a (0:18:22) Kevin: Just came out last year. I believe it is Disney’s version of Mario Kart. Um, it’s part racing game with Disney (0:18:30) Kevin: here’s okay, so (0:18:33) Kevin: it’s (0:18:35) Kevin: It I’m two ways about it because on the one hand the actual racing is fantastic It’s a strong Mario Kart type game the if you’re a big fan of Disney, you’ll get even more enjoyment out of it (0:18:49) Kevin: With the music tracks the characters pretty wide variety of characters. They have Pixar and Disney, but here’s the kicker (0:18:57) Kevin: It’s free to play which do hey, that’s cool. You don’t spend money (0:19:00) Kevin: But it is slathered with loot boxes, season pass, microtransactions, just filled to the brim with it. (0:19:13) Kevin: And it’s not prohibitive, but you do have to know how to invest your resources. (0:19:23) Kevin: Because you get plenty of resources, basically the kicker is you have to level up your characters, (0:19:28) Kevin: racers that affects their stats and that actually (0:19:31) Kevin: does affect your performance in races, including the single player. (0:19:35) Kevin: In fact, I would say primarily the single player, which is what I’ve been playing. (0:19:41) Kevin: And so getting the resources is the challenge. (0:19:44) Kevin: You have to win certain races, do certain objectives, get from boxes, yada, yada. (0:19:51) Kevin: So it is a limited amount you get, at least like daily, but if you just invest them smartly, you can get through the races. (0:19:58) Kevin: Okay, but so you know (0:20:01) Kevin: That’s kind of a bummer how grindy you can feel at times But the grind is fun because the game itself is really fun They it as you can expect from disney money. The presentation is pretty stellar like I said the (0:20:15) Kevin: All the visuals the audio is good. They got (0:20:19) Kevin: Not every voice actor but a good majority of them. They didn’t get you know, john goodman for sully, but uh (0:20:27) Kevin: They got ariel’s voice actress, which is pretty cool. Um (0:20:31) Kevin: And i’m a big disney fan. So i’m uh, i’m thoroughly enjoying the game. Um (0:20:37) Kevin: and it’s like on every console or Platform whatever and you can move your account and all that good stuff. Um (0:20:46) Kevin: so I uh I I I enjoy I kind of recommend it if you’re a big disney fan in particular (0:20:56) Jonnie: This sounds like the sort of game that in a different stage of my life I would have got very into and it’s more that I just don’t have space for another like daily check-in game in my life at the moment. (0:21:06) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, now that’s understandable um I (0:21:10) Jonnie: And how would you say the racing compares to like a Mario? (0:21:12) Kevin: I think (0:21:14) Kevin: Overall the the pacing is faster in general. There’s a big emphasis on boosting and has a boosting mechanic (0:21:24) Kevin: The number of power-ups are (0:21:29) Kevin: They’re general. I don’t know if they’re smaller the actual amount, but they’re less impactful. Let’s say right (0:21:34) Kevin: There’s no blue (0:21:36) Kevin: Shell or lightning. There’s nothing super chaotic like the most (0:21:40) Kevin: There’s a shield you can get there. You can fire like a homing disc (0:21:46) Kevin: They do put some fun twists on it because the power-ups you can actually (0:21:52) Kevin: Have variations some you can charge up (0:21:55) Kevin: You can hold the button down and charge up the power-up to do something different some you can throw backwards others. You can’t (0:22:02) Kevin: uh… and most interestingly uh… every character (0:22:06) Kevin: has a unique uh… power-up uh… that matches their character right um… so for instance uh… ariel has a really fun one when you use her special skill she uh… (0:22:19) Kevin: these little uh… (0:22:21) Kevin: the trinkets and artifacts uh… just uh… spawn on the racetrack and if you collect them you get a higher top speed which is cute uh… there’s other ones like stitch he’ll just start blasting all her crazy like with his ray gun. (0:22:36) Kevin: Sully will roar at people and it’s just cute to see the ones that they do and how they match each character. (0:22:46) Kevin: But yeah, overall it feels less chaotic than a Mario Kart because Mario Kart is just utter chaos with everything flying around. (0:22:58) Kevin: It is a bit more straightforward racing but still enjoyable. (0:23:06) Kevin: And one more I’ve got to talk about, Moonstone Island. (0:23:10) Kevin: Funnily enough, you guys talked about the update last week. (0:23:16) Kevin: I was playing before the update dropped, I didn’t even know it was coming. (0:23:20) Kevin: You can see there was an update on Steam. (0:23:22) Kevin: I have actually not hit credits, I don’t know if you can hit credits in the game, but I completed a full year and defeated the final boss. (0:23:30) Kevin: I did a whole episode on that and I think my feelings are more or less… (0:23:36) Kevin: They added the marriage and that was fine, but it’s not enough to change the entirety of the game. (0:23:44) Kevin: There’s still a lot I like about the game, but there’s also a lot that it feels lacking. (0:23:50) Kevin: But hopefully they’ll keep updating it and we’ll see it get to a better place. (0:23:54) Kevin: The one thing I will definitely give them props for is the monster design. (0:24:00) Kevin: The hands down winner, the new ones they added, is called… (0:24:06) Kevin: …the bread mouse. It is a toaster with a piece of toast in it with a little face on it and the toast will pop out. (0:24:16) Kevin: But yeah, I still kinda recommend it. I went back to it, right? (0:24:22) Kevin: There’s enough for me to actually go through the whole year. (0:24:24) Kevin: Yeah. (0:24:26) Jonnie: And that’s a big thing, I guess, you know, in this year or, you know, in modern time. (0:24:32) Jonnie: Going back to a game is a really good sign, because there’s so many games that we get to play, (0:24:40) Jonnie: and you can try something and be like, “Oh, that was fun,” but you never really feel the need to go back to it, and you’ll be scrolling through your library, and you’ll be like, “Oh, (0:24:46) Jonnie: I never went back to that.” And you kind of realize, like, while it was fun, there wasn’t that hook to pull you back. So anything that can do that, I think, is a solution. (0:24:50) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yep, there’s something almost like I keep going back because I want it to be good right like I had fun going through the bosses and everything the last fight is actually very challenging but I just I still wish there was like a story giving me a reason that I’m hiding this thing. Oh, you know, I’m just gonna spoil (0:24:56) Jonnie: It’s kind of a pretty good game. (0:25:20) Kevin: it for anyone who cares the boss’s name is missing no actually just straight up missing no like Pokemon’s missing number but but yeah so that and hey I did I can pat myself on the back and close it for now unless something update comes. Ah, but yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to a lot of stuff and speaking of a lot of stuff we got news actually I don’t think it’s that much news but we got some items here so let’s let’s get into it first up. (0:25:50) Kevin: Alpone Island, yeah, console releases are still coming, but we don’t have any date yet, (0:25:57) Kevin: and they’re doing improvements to the UI, which is always good. (0:26:02) Kevin: I feel like, oh man, UI design, it’s so critical, but it feels so underappreciated, even just from the dev side, but you know, so I do appreciate them putting some effort on that. (0:26:20) Jonnie: Yeah, so I guess the key to this one is that they kind of recognize that their launch on Steam was a little bit rocky. (0:26:25) Jonnie: They got kind of hit with a few bugs that were probably unexpected. (0:26:29) Jonnie: And so they’re just calling out that they’re still fully intending to do their console launches, (0:26:34) Jonnie: but also recognizing that it’s probably going to take a bit more work than they initially intended. (0:26:38) Jonnie: So no official date as of yet, but I really appreciate this sort of communication. (0:26:45) Jonnie: and probably unsurprising that when you have a launch on Steam. (0:26:50) Jonnie: And you get hit with some bugs that you didn’t expect like, it’s not only that it can be disappointing sort of, you know, that that happens and disappointing commercially, but it could also be like it’s just hard right when you put a lot of time, effort and love into into a game like this. (0:27:05) Jonnie: And, you know, it’s very hard to predict we all know that building games is difficult. (0:27:11) Jonnie: So, I think it’s a good sign that they’re taking the time and not putting the additional pressure on to, to get the, to get those things done. (0:27:12) Kevin: Oh yeah, absolutely. (0:27:18) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely yeah, and even just in this (0:27:24) Kevin: Cottage cord subspace there’s plenty of games, so there’s definitely no need to rush (0:27:30) Kevin: I agree, it’s good for them to be clear for one to folk it to (0:27:36) Kevin: Plan things out like this right like they’re gonna delay it and to be clear about it (0:27:41) Kevin: So I (0:27:42) Kevin: Think that’s a sign of a good developer. So, you know, I hoped for that console release eventually (0:27:49) Kevin: Kinseed has a what they call the big build update Great. (0:27:58) Jonnie: Yeah, so the the big build update is hot now and I guess the key to this one is it introduces farm customization (0:28:06) Kevin: Yeah, uh (0:28:08) Kevin: So I have not honestly I have not seen that much about (0:28:13) Kevin: But boy that art is beautiful. It is wow that’s some lovely lovely pixel art (0:28:19) Kevin: Yeah farm customization is the big one. They have actually they have a big list of stuff on Steam you can see (0:28:27) Kevin: They even adjusted some of the story pacing (0:28:31) Kevin: Let me see. Oh, that’s cool NPC a talent system for NPC That’s really cool improvements to their progress screen (0:28:41) Kevin: You can (0:28:44) Kevin: Not just customize it not just not visual customization for the farm, but actual structures that can improve (0:28:52) Kevin: like your shelters for your animals and (0:28:57) Kevin: Things to make travel and commerce easier. Um, if this is a pretty hearty update. Oh batch crafting. There’s the (0:29:04) Kevin: That’s the one everyone loves (0:29:06) Kevin: That’s a lot of that’s a lot of that’s a big update. I appreciate that. I’m gonna have to check this out This is some really pretty art. I totally forgotten about this one I don’t like and like I said, that is out now already on Steam. Is it anywhere else? (0:29:18) Kevin: I don’t remember but at there at least on Steam, okay (0:29:22) Kevin: Let’s see next up. We have oh, this is fun one a game called outbound (0:29:31) Kevin: Let’s read the blurb shall we (0:29:35) Kevin: Build your own home (0:29:36) Kevin: Come on wheels and live sustainably off-grid Craft workstations and power supplies Source energy from the sun, wind, or water Upgrade and customize your vehicle Grow crops, automate your production, and explore a colorful world That’s a lot of stuff to do from a vehicle (0:29:54) Jonnie: look this game looks incredible so so I guess the the shorter summary we’ll keep just read out is you’re driving around in a in a minivan that you live in and you can customize I’ll put a note down here that I well I was on board before this but the moment that got Al was they built an insane structure on top of the campervan which I think is amazing from what they’ve shown you know being able drive around the world, dick out. (0:30:24) Jonnie: The game is a bit of a game, but it’s a bit of a game. (0:30:32) Kevin: Yeah, it’s a very pleasant visual style too, it’s full 3D cell shaded, I think is probably the best way, or closest approximation, I would say. (0:30:47) Kevin: This is very interesting, right? Because so many farm games, they’re centered around the farm or the base, right? (0:30:56) Kevin: But this one’s mobile, so, like, how, that will make sense. (0:31:02) Kevin: This will make, I assume, traversing between different little mini bases, because they show you can build structures on the ground and stuff, so I assume you can build little buildings and things like that. (0:31:13) Kevin: I wonder how big the map will be if you have a car, like, there’s a lot of potential there. (0:31:18) Kevin: It looks like wind turbines on the top of this thing. Oh, that’s great. I hope you can go really high, I want it to look absurdly ridiculous. (0:31:30) Jonnie: And it’s I guess in terms of like this game is being announced. They have a (0:31:35) Jonnie: Kickstarter page like but no no campaign launch or launch date. So probably just want to keep our eyes on (0:31:46) Kevin: Um, all right, so that is, again, Outbound, that’s a fun looking one. (0:31:52) Kevin: Um, and actually, that’s it. (0:31:55) Kevin: I think we’ve covered most of the news. (0:31:55) Jonnie: Oh we got one more one more (0:31:58) Kevin: Well, one more by yes, but I’ll let you take this one. (0:31:59) Jonnie: We’ve got farming some farming simulator farming simulator 23. Yeah, you scroll past it (0:32:02) Kevin: Wait, what? (0:32:04) Kevin: Oh, oh, I missed it. (0:32:04) Kevin: You’re right. (0:32:05) Kevin: I skipped it. (0:32:05) Kevin: Yeah, I did. (0:32:08) Kevin: Wait, they do content updates for these guys. (0:32:10) Jonnie: Yes, they do lots of content updates for farming simulator they’ve got all the farming freaks and (0:32:14) Kevin: I thought each year was the con- (0:32:16) Kevin: content of the- laughs (0:32:17) Jonnie: No, there are there are updates within the content updates (0:32:22) Jonnie: So this one introduces a new to. (0:32:25) Jonnie: a new video. (0:32:36) Kevin: And no (0:32:40) Kevin: I do enjoy seeing the reactions from the people who are fans, right like (0:32:46) Kevin: the I remember years back when they finally brought John Deere into farming simulator just the (0:32:54) Kevin: the (0:32:56) Kevin: The height was (0:32:58) Kevin: Through roof from the farm simulator community (0:33:03) Kevin: That’s that’s pretty fun (0:33:05) Kevin: All right, yeah, the boat (0:33:07) Kevin: I’ll put an exclamation point. I wonder if he knows who that is. I don’t know that company (0:33:13) Kevin: Alright, let’s just get into the demos Johnny. I’ll let you take the first one. That’s I chair to the class what what demos you’ve been (0:33:22) Jonnie: So I guess the first one that I’ll kick off with is Lightyear Frontier. (0:33:26) Jonnie: And as I wrote that down, I’m actually questioning, is that the name of the game? (0:33:29) Jonnie: Because we’re in the classic word salad of games where you start looking at things, (0:33:38) Jonnie: and then you wonder, is that right? Or is it something else? (0:33:42) Jonnie: It is… Yeah. Right. (0:33:42) Kevin: This is not one lonely outpost or whatever that one’s called. That’s the other space future one [laughs] (0:33:52) Jonnie: So yeah, so Lightyear Frontier is the mech space farming game. (0:34:00) Jonnie: And actually, having played the demo, I feel like farming or cottagecore game (0:34:05) Jonnie: is maybe not quite the right description. To me, it feels maybe more similar to (0:34:17) Jonnie: like a survival game. So the premise is you are dropped on a planet with (0:34:22) Jonnie: your mech and you are the only thing on there. I think part of it is the intent is maybe more for like do it with friends, right? So there might be three or four of you and you explore the planet and sort of build and establish a base more so than a farm. Like farming is definitely an element of it, but I guess that’s kind of the core base of the (0:34:42) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it definitely feels more, as you said, survival as great like no man’s sky or perhaps power. (0:35:00) Kevin: But okay, tell me how is the mech though, right? Because that’s that’s the differential to the star of the show How does it feel oh? (0:35:08) Jonnie: the mech is unfortunately disappointing and there’s one very clear reason for it and I get where they’re going I just don’t think it works in execution so what happens with the mech is you know it can jump higher you can get in and out of the mech so you’re not always in the mech and there are elements where you need to be outside of it but what happens I think in order to sort of limit traversal around the world as the mech is not great. (0:35:12) Kevin: No (0:35:39) Jonnie: If you are on unstable ground, it is highly likely to fall over and then you need to get out and you need to right the mech. (0:35:40) Kevin: Oh, no. (0:35:47) Jonnie: I get why they want to limit some of the traversal. (0:35:52) Jonnie: I assume it might be that you can get a higher jump or a longer boost later in the game, but it just doesn’t feel great. (0:36:04) Jonnie: You know to me part of what I want to feel when I’m in a mix is like I am like (0:36:08) Jonnie: Human plus and in many ways it feels like you’re a human - we (0:36:12) Kevin: Right, absolutely, like, I’m looking at the trailer and one thing I’m seeing is that the actions you do from the map feel very similar to what you could do in any other sort of survival game, right, collecting resources, planting, etc, etc. (0:36:36) Kevin: And, I mean, obviously the visuals match the Mac you’re using tools and gadgets. (0:36:42) Kevin: And what not to do it. But like you say, when you’re when I’m in a mech, I’d want to be more than human plus I want to be outrageously absurdly powerful and doing nonsense right like I just want to low, if I’m going to clear a lane, I want to do it just in till a field I want to do it in just one button push, you know, something like that, something absurd and over the top. (0:37:06) Kevin: And I’m not really seeing that, which is unfortunate. (0:37:08) Jonnie: Yeah, and I didn’t really feel that in the gameplay, so that was unfortunate. (0:37:14) Kevin: Yeah, what about the the rest of it right? (0:37:18) Jonnie: So I think the rest of it… So I think it’s well known that I’m not a particularly big fan of survival games, (0:37:24) Jonnie: but I even feel that in the realm of survival games, this one suffers from not really having a clear identity of what it is. (0:37:36) Jonnie: So if I think about something like you know the classic Minecraft, Minecraft is all built around the creativity aspect of what can you build and what can you do in this world. There’s no narrative element, it’s just come up with whatever narrative you want but this is the game which is great for what they’re doing. Something like Pylia is like hey go out into the world and beat these bosses right so there’s there is more of a here’s an objective of a thing to do. Now you can talk about how good it is at doing that but it’s (0:38:08) Jonnie: very clearly there. In Lightyear Frontier there is a narrative aspect that is so you’ve got an AI (0:38:22) Jonnie: counterpart that’s like watching over you and giving you guidance I guess is is probably the way to describe it and you’re landed on a planet there’s some allusions to you know like why didn’t humanity come here and you know explore this planet and you know you’re gonna clean up some of it (0:38:38) Jonnie: but it doesn’t feel particularly like the narrative doesn’t feel particularly compelling or strong like there was a few quests that kind of were meant to introduce it to you but they kind of just feel like they appeared and I didn’t really feel like I had a compelling reason to go and do those I didn’t care about completing the quests right like it was more just like here’s a task to complete and then on the other side I didn’t get that like the building side of it (0:39:08) Jonnie: and I didn’t feel strong enough that I was like oh but like that I could see how I want to build out this planet it more felt like kind of just standard base building stuff so to me it felt stuck between all of the different aspects of what a survival game could be and just wasn’t really (0:39:28) Kevin: Yeah, I again, looking at the trailer, I can I can get that like, I think a concern just from looking at it, the house you can build is like a little wood cottage type ranch home and in a mech game, you know, I’d hope for a big hulking metal robot base. (0:39:50) Kevin: So I can see that it feels like they’re trying to go in two different directions. They’re going through all the usual trappings of these survival. (0:39:58) Kevin: Type games, but they’re trying to do this next stuff, but not enough. So that’s that’s a tad unfortunate, like, honestly, just looks like a more colorful no man’s sky again. (0:40:11) Jonnie: Yeah. I don’t know that I have a huge amount else to say on this game, and I guess my takeaway is, (0:40:19) Jonnie: you know, sometimes you play a game and you’re like, “I didn’t enjoy that, but I know the sorts of people that would enjoy it, right? I know who I would recommend the game to.” Unfortunately, (0:40:28) Jonnie: with my time with Lightyear Frontier, I kind of left it thinking, “I don’t know who this game is for.” It feels too much like we built a thing where, you know, it’s sort of like Mad Libs. (0:40:41) Jonnie: And I guess that’s probably something we should say maybe not right up front, because now that we’re a little bit into the conversation, but there’s a huge possibility that these things could change, (0:41:09) Jonnie: All right, um (0:41:11) Jonnie: And I think for me the thing that would need to change with lightyear frontier (0:41:14) Jonnie: In order for me to go back in is I would want to hear about this game having a clear direction in terms of what it is whether that’s adding a lot more narratively or you know really going into what it means to clean up the planet and to (0:41:30) Jonnie: Build a base or do whatever the thing is that you’re aiming to do on this planet (0:41:34) Jonnie: Uh, I would just like to see more of a direct (0:41:40) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s unfortunate and they have the big hook they have the mech right like if they got in all in on that right like (0:41:50) Kevin: customize it to be just (0:41:52) Kevin: Ridiculously different builds or whatever right like I think of you know armor court six I don’t know if you’re familiar with that that was the big mech game from from software (0:42:01) Kevin: Like that’s the sort of thing. I want to see from Mecca’s (0:42:04) Jonnie: And I think that’s a really good sort of like point to raise is that, you know, and I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, the tools just kind of feel like the tools that you would have anywhere else like it doesn’t feel like they’re really taking advantage of the of the mech and some of the cool things that it could do, you know, you’ve got this big open game, give us a, you know, a super fast boost. (0:42:26) Jonnie: Like, I’ve not played Armoured Core 6, but I’ve seen the gameplay of Armoured Core 6, and you kind of take all of the aspects of that game. (0:42:31) Kevin: right like yep (0:42:35) Jonnie: And you delete them. And that’s what playing a mech in this game feels like. (0:42:39) Kevin: yep yep oh man that’s that’s disappointing but uh it is still technically early access so you know who knows maybe one day we’ll we’ll see improvements maybe they’ll hear this episode down the ground grapevine and then then then then they’ll go all day but um all right there you go Well, that’s lightyear frontier. (0:43:00) Jonnie: - Yes, that’s my first tempo. (0:43:01) Kevin: All right, I want to talk about Southfield. (0:43:02) Jonnie: Kip, what’s your… (0:43:08) Kevin: So we covered this relatively recently on the podcast last time I was on with Al. (0:43:14) Kevin: They’re hook, they’re premise. (0:43:16) Kevin: It is a physics-based farming, your cottagecore type game. (0:43:21) Kevin: It is, so if you watch the trailer, see the images. (0:43:25) Kevin: You can see just from the visual style what they’re going for. (0:43:28) Kevin: You’re playing as this very (0:43:31) Kevin: round colorful I call it gun gumdrop creature um with goofy cartoony eyes and and just like no fingers or whatever just brown ball hands and this demo is fascinating because (0:43:48) Kevin: unlike other demos it’s not a they’re up clear about it up they’re clear and upfront about it it’s not a like example of a level or whatever this is kind of a (0:44:01) Kevin: proof of concept they want to uh show what they want to go for that’s how they describe it now that said the it is a fairly robust and complete uh demo uh it is very large and the kicker is you can’t save but it yeah yeah it’s rough so like if you want to if you think you’d enjoy this you’ve got to clear a couple hours because it is a it is a very amply sized uh demo (0:44:17) Jonnie: Oh no! (0:44:31) Kevin: both in terms of like the area you can cover and the amount of things you can do it uh so going to the main hook of the the physics space portion so for instance right in your standard farming game when you want to harvest a crop you you just push the button and you collect the resource right maybe you put it down with a sickle or whatever right in this game you have to grab the fruit Whatever it is, and you actually have to pull that sucker out like it (0:45:01) Kevin: will stretch cartoon style and you have to yank it off in a very sort of satisfying way of doing it. It’s not all completely fixed space, for instance when you’re plowing the the ground it’s still a grid based sort of system as is the usual, but for instance when you’re watering it’s not just water square by square it’s like you’re you actually just can run around and just rush all and spray water everywhere as you’re doing it. (0:45:31) Jonnie: This game just looks incredible. I love this. I have like- I love the- (0:45:31) Kevin: The Legend of Zelda Series is a very bright, bouncy, colorful cartoon. It’s a dedicated combo button. You can just roll around and roll around. (0:45:38) Kevin: Everything about it, even as you’re playing the mechanics, all feel like how it looks. For instance, there is a dedicated combo button where you just kind of roll up into a ball and then you can just start rolling around like a Goron from The Legend of Zelda Series. (0:46:02) Kevin: It’s very fun, it’s very cute. There is a huge, like, 30 or something crops that you can grow in the demo. (0:46:14) Kevin: And they do get into some of the other aspects, like building and crafting and whatnot. (0:46:20) Kevin: In particular, the automation stuff where you can construct conveyor belts and things like that. You can see in some of the trailer, like, you can have these wacky… (0:46:31) Kevin: bouncing fruits on the conveyor belts as they’re moving along. So it can… the possibilities are… they’re vast. Like, I can’t even imagine the nonsense that will come out of this game. (0:46:44) Kevin: And overall, like I said, it’s a real… it sucks that you can’t say it because I want to play this more and more, but having to restart every time is a real bummer. (0:46:57) Kevin: bummer but yeah the whole demo as a whole is very sandbox (0:47:01) Kevin: like here’s the island go here’s basically all the things you can do and just go do whatever right I don’t know what the if they’re gonna try to go with a narrative thing because they have some other NPCs and characters which are fun in design and have personality so maybe they’ll lean into that I don’t know but it is still overall I think a great demo I’m excited for the game I’m glad the demo didn’t disappoint because just what looking at the. (0:47:31) Kevin: very excited by the visual style and I’m definitely keeping my eye out for this and you know, (0:47:40) Kevin: whenever how long it will take to get a big game actually done. (0:47:43) Kevin: So definitely a thumbs up. (0:47:45) Jonnie: I loved the look of some of the automation in the game where they set up the conveyor belts and like fans and was that in the demo? (0:47:53) Kevin: Yes, yes it was. I can’t remember fans, but I think it was. I didn’t fiddle around with the animation too, too much, but they definitely had a lot of different components that you could mess around with to basically achieve the sort of stuff you see in the trailer with fans pushing them and bouncing and things like that. (0:48:11) Kevin: Yeah, I’m definitely a thumbs up from me on Southfield. (0:48:16) Jonnie: game looks, it looks incredible. My feeling looking at this game is it kind of gives me the silliness that I feel like an Ooblets was going for and Ooblets massively failed to deliver on because it just tried to be absurd. This feels like absurd with a purpose, right? That’s, to me, that’s the appeal is like the ragdoll physics style element and what you’ve said about like it’s not everywhere, (0:48:27) Kevin: Yes. (0:48:42) Jonnie: right like the the hoeing being more grid-based as well. (0:48:46) Kevin: Yeah, it’s it’s still grounded. Yes, right (0:48:47) Jonnie: That to me says a lot because yeah it’s grounded there’s still intention behind it and doing that those things where it makes sense right here like Ublitz was just like we’re gonna make everything silly because that’s the thing we do we’re silly look at how silly we are and it’s like hey you kind of just cringe in lane right like whereas this looks just amazing. (0:49:06) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I I fully agree with that because (0:49:11) Kevin: Yeah, nothing felt nothing felt bad like for better lack of way of putting oh my gosh I think I’m looking at the trailer again I forgot there’s this fruit that will just start growing if you don’t harvest it quickly enough. It’s it’s pretty fun (0:49:25) Kevin: Yeah, they have the cannons. Yeah, all this stuff is in the demo looking at it. There’s not like your dog I don’t remember that but oh, yeah, I think the vehicle was in there, too (0:49:33) Kevin: But I agree like it’s very thoughtful (0:49:36) Kevin: in its design. It’s goofy as much as it can be but still absolutely grounds it with working systems. And honestly I had the same feeling of like this is kind of what I want Ooblets to be like because it’s bright and colorful but not ridiculously like I don’t I don’t know what it is about Ooblets something about the names that always throw me off about Ooblets but but here it’s just so much fun. I mean just looking at the (0:50:07) Kevin: It’s it’s great. Yeah, so I don’t think we have a any date or anything like that for Southfield yet, but (0:50:15) Kevin: Keep your keep your eye out for it because I think it’s gonna be a great one (0:50:20) Jonnie: Alright, so Rusty’s Retirement is a game I’m very excited about, I’ve been very excited about, (0:50:28) Jonnie: and I was very excited to try the demo. I feel like the idea of an idol-ish farming game that kind of just sits at the bottom of your screen is genius and something that I had (0:50:42) Jonnie: not considered and something I didn’t know that I wanted until I saw the trailer. (0:50:46) Jonnie: And I was like, yeah, I really want to play this. (0:50:50) Jonnie: Good. (0:50:51) Jonnie: And having played the demo, it seems like it’s exactly what I wanted it to be. (0:50:57) Jonnie: So you have your farming plots that sit at the bottom of the screen. (0:51:01) Jonnie: You select a crop, you plant it. (0:51:04) Jonnie: Rusty, he goes out and he’ll plant the crops, (0:51:07) Jonnie: or he’ll order them, he’ll harvest them. (0:51:10) Jonnie: You can purchase robots that will help with the automation, (0:51:14) Jonnie: effectively just increasing the number of tasks that you can complete. (0:51:20) Jonnie: The first crops you grow, then maybe they take a minute or two. (0:51:24) Jonnie: And then as time goes on, the crops take longer and longer to grow. (0:51:27) Jonnie: And you just need to grow more of them to unlock future stuff. (0:51:32) Kevin: You’re right. Okay (0:51:33) Jonnie: The demo has some pretty obvious blockers on it. (0:51:39) Jonnie: I assume you’ll be able to purchase more land. (0:51:41) Jonnie: There are some big bits on the screen that we just grade out with the words demo across them. (0:51:46) Jonnie: I’m sure there’ll be more buildings and stuff like you could buy. (0:51:50) Jonnie: a few buildings in this one, but nothing significant. (0:51:56) Jonnie: It was just kind of everything. I was hoping it was going to be. (0:52:01) Kevin: okay so the prison like the visual is very cute I actually like the style a lot um my question is (0:52:09) Kevin: how intrusive do you find it right like because it’s running at the bottom of your screen (0:52:16) Kevin: like how frequently are you checking in or how much is it distracting you (0:52:22) Jonnie: Yes, I don’t know if it’s fair to say, Chris, this is probably the thing that I hope changes the most as the game goes from demo to full implementation. (0:52:33) Jonnie: And I should call out that they’re very explicit that the demo is a work in progress and that a lot of things will change. (0:52:42) Jonnie: So in terms of how intrusive it is, I’m playing on a laptop with, you know, like a 15 inch screen and a monitor. It’s a textual monitor that’s like. (0:52:52) Jonnie: Maybe 27 inches and it does feel quite intrusive. They do have options where you can keep it up permanently or have it minimize, which is which is handy. (0:53:02) Jonnie: It did feel quite intrusive, but they’re one of the good things that I guess has come out of the demos. (0:53:10) Jonnie: They’ve announced that vertical mode is coming and I think the vertical mode would change it quite significantly. (0:53:15) Jonnie: I think there’s quite a difference to it being on the right of a screen versus. (0:53:22) Jonnie: It being sort of on the bottom in terms of the amount of screen real estate it will take up. (0:53:27) Jonnie: So I really like that change. I think that makes a lot of sense and it’s something that I’m very excited for because I think I would I would be much more likely to have it up permanently if I was playing in vertical mode versus horizontal. (0:53:40) Kevin: Okay. (0:53:41) Kevin: Yeah. (0:53:42) Kevin: I, I guess I can see that. (0:53:44) Kevin: I guess also like just how much like in terms of attention, does it, (0:53:50) Kevin: does it track from you, right? (0:53:52) Kevin: Like, is this something you would run while doing something? (0:53:56) Kevin: I don’t know, a work type task or, or is this something just while you’re watching videos or like, how, yeah, how much of your attention? (0:54:06) Jonnie: Yeah, so I think this is the other thing that I kind of hope changes in the full implementation is that it slows down a bit. (0:54:13) Jonnie: So I felt like it was requiring too much attention for what it was. (0:54:20) Jonnie: But again, that’s sort of a pass I’m willing to give it because it’s a demo. (0:54:23) Jonnie: And I think it felt like, you know, to me, it felt like that was intended because you kind of progress to purchasing some of the buildings and getting a lot of the resources. (0:54:34) Jonnie: what felt like very quick for a game of (0:54:36) Jonnie: this sort and I wouldn’t be surprised if in the in the full implementation everything else was slowed down so I feel like I did everything within the demo you know which which goes from starting with not a lot to generating you know thousands of gold within t

Join us today on “Coping” where Kathy and Kevin discuss the value of exploring personal and family origin stories. Learn how understanding where we come from fosters connection, perspective and empowerment to overcome current challenges and practical ways you can discover your origin story to help you adjust the path you may be on now as an adult. Kevin Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". We're excited to continue our conversation from our last episode. Kathy Yes, welcome everyone. Last podcast, if you remember, we began to discuss this interesting topic of story and the story myths that hold us back. And in this episode, we want to continue discussing the idea of how our past stories shape our current stories. Kevin That's exactly right. Our past reveals where we came from. In movies and comics, this idea is what's called an origin story. And some of the best movies are the movies that delve into those origin stories. What makes the character today who they were and that's where they came from. And so what's so fascinating is watching these backstories can actually provide us with insight into how the hero of the story or the narrator of the story acquires their superpowers, how they face loss and overcame that. And when they were dealt hardship, how they came out on the other side. And what caused them to become who they are today, flaws and all. Kathy Yeah, that's all so fascinating. I personally love all things history, past origin. So let's get started. Kathy Well, like I mentioned before, I have a fascination and love for things of the past and history. I loved history when I was a student in high school and college, almost considered majoring in it. I'm obsessed, sad to say, with ancestry.com and going through, clicking on those of you who know ancestry .com, you click on these leaves that are of the tree. You just keep clicking and clicking and I don't really allow myself to go on anymore because I'll just spend hours delving into the history. And a few years ago, we took a trip to New York City. Kevin Yeah, and I know that you love my family history because they came through Ellis Island. So there's a lot of documentation about their travels, clicking on those leaves and then being there, standing in Ellis Island, looking at the records where my great, great grandfather on my father's side traveled from Ireland and then signed his name in the book, for the records coming over to America. And then on my mom's side, my great, great grandfather also came over from Italy. And so, just to go from a website where you're searching and, you know, creating links for my family tree and then to stand there and to see the signature written and to see the pictures of the ships that they traveled on and to create literally stand exactly where they would have stood in line. Kevin There's something really powerful about that and how it becomes so real and so vivid. And for me personally, to connect my story back generations, fills me with a lot of meaning and connects me to my past in a way that I just didn't know existed. Kathy It's really quite powerful stuff. Yeah. We remember, those of you who have been to Ellis Island, there's a ferry that takes you and to think that we were seeing the Statue of Liberty just like they would have, was a very moving experience for both of us. And yeah, it just, it's about the power of connecting to your past. Kevin That's right. And I have a, you know, interesting family, immigration story of my grandparents coming from Italy and then also from Ireland. But you also have a really fascinating immigration story. Can you speak a little bit about that? Kathy Yeah. So my family did not come through Ellis Island. My parents immigrated to Florida in 1971 and that's how we came to America. They came by way of plane to this country. My dad had a new job at a brand new university and I was 18 months. So I am actually an immigrant as well. I was not born in this country and I became a citizen when I was 18. Why do you think, exploring the past is so important? Kevin Well, you are the history buff and I am the story buff, if you will. I think there's a few different things that make looking at our past and knowing our origin story so important. And the first thing is connection. Understanding our stories did not begin with us makes us feel less alone and helps connect us to the bigger story that's unfolding. And that's exactly what happened for me. I recognize that a lot of the struggles and hardships that I face in my life are generational. And I had a renewed sense of hope that if my ancestors were able to overcome the transition from what they knew to a new world and were able to build a better life to put me in the position that I am, surely I can overcome and deal with transition and hardship much like they did, that it's somehow in my blood, that it's in my lineage, that if they did it then I can do it too. Kevin And that story made me feel far less alone and really proud of what they did for me and that what I can then do in their honor in my story as it unfolds. Kathy Absolutely. The power of connecting to the past, that connection that you mentioned, is so crucial. We're all right now feeling like we're so disconnected and this is a very tangible way to try to find some connection in our lives. Currently we are in a story class journey with Be Well and we're reading Leslie Leyland Fields, "Your Story Matters". She has a very powerful quote about the past. She says, "the past is not done. It lives on in us no matter how cleverly we disguise ourselves, no matter how fast we try to run from it. When we don't turn and look behind us, we lose our way, even our very selves." Kathy And so I think the second thing that exploring our past does for us is it gives us perspective. So as you talked about connection, I'm sure part of that was also perspective. I mean looking into the story of my family gave me a lot of perspective. It's almost like looking into an old mirror. We see ourselves in an old mirror, but we also can see those who came before us and their experiences give us a new lens from which to look at our lives. How does it give us a new lens? Kevin Say more about that new lens. Kathy So for example, if I look through the lens of my life right now through the lens of my parents, again, it's a story of overcoming. It's a story of a new life, a new hope, a new future for the next generation. It's exactly what we hope for our children that my parents hope for us. And so this perspective is now connected to the story, the greater story of my family. And when I looked behind me, immediately I could see a lot of links that could frame my current perspective now. It helps diminish the feeling of being all alone and disconnected and it can provide, this new perspective can provide a lot of strength as well I would say. Kevin Yeah, and that leads us into the third thing that we gain when we take time to look at our past, and that's empowerment. Empowerment is all about getting us re-engaged with how our story unfolded and how it's still unfolding. And so what that did for me really is helped me to recognize that although in my past things happened to me when they were out of my control when I was young, as an adult, I can take my story, all that has happened, and be an active participant in writing my story going forward. And so there's a sense of empowerment that if this is what has happened behind me and I look at my life that's still ahead of me, if I want my life to be different, I can make those changes. And that's really empowering to recognize that the story is not over. What has been written is not gone. And if it's not gone, if it's still with me, I can continue to write a new story for myself going forward and reframe what has happened and how I got to where I am today based on where I end up. Kevin And that's what the origin story is all about. No matter where you came from in the hardship that you've endured, those things can propel you into the kind of future you want to have and give it that much more meaning. Kathy Yes, absolutely. It just is unlocking a lot of things for us when we go back into the past. And we want to be mindful that we understand that delving to things of the past can be hard. It can be painful. It can bring up a lot of trauma. As we embark on this journey to write our stories in our journey class, we have encountered that this past week when we began to map our stories. So mapping is this process of basically putting down all the highlights and the events and the key memories and it was hard. It was challenging. Our group was saying that they wanted to give up at some point and said they wanted to shut those doors. They didn't want to delve, go there, basically. Kevin Right. It's hard to look back. The origin stories are often filled with darkness. And like I said before, there's a sense of disempowerment that happened to you when you were too young to recognize that it didn't have to be that way. Kathy Right. Kevin And too young to have any sort of power to affect change. Often when you are delving into your origin stories, that kind of work is best done with, and within a therapeutic relationship that you're sitting with somebody who has the training to do some meaning-making, some conversational processing with you so that you can make sense of your past and you can delve through it in a healthy and safe environment and to gain the type of perspective, connection and empowerment that we're talking about. Kathy Yeah, absolutely. It is work that, what we wanna say is this isn't work that can be done alone. In our community, we are doing it together and we were able to reconvene and decide that we're gonna continue to move forward in finding a way to our past. We're gonna unlock those doors again, but we're just gonna find a different pathway there this next week. And what we have found so far is we have found these three keys that we just talked about, connection, perspective, and empowerment. Kathy And as I mentioned, from Leslie's book, "Your Story Matters", she has this quote which I think really sums up why, again, this is so important. It's a great summary for our discussion today. She says, "writing the stories from our past enables us to live them again, but this time we live them wiser and better." Kevin So good. And so we have these three keys, these three things that we gain when we look at our story and we know that we can live our stories again wiser going forward, but how would you suggest our listeners do that in their own origin stories? Where's the starting point for that? How do you begin that work? Kathy Yeah, this is a great question. This is a practical step that you can take if you're listening today. One would be if you do have any living relatives that have some stories that they can share with you about the history of your family. If you don't have any living relatives, you can go on to ancestry .com. This is not a commercial for them, but we wish they would reach out. But if you go there and you know some dates and names, and if your family has been here a couple generations in America, that would be the other thing I would say, at least two generations here in this country, you could just log on. And in the free version, you can find out a lot of discoveries. Everything from marriage certificates to census reports, ships registries; that's what Kevin found at Ellis Island. They're all online. Kathy It's so fascinating. So those are the two things that I would say is, reach out to a relative who can share stories, or you can also go online and look through that. Kevin Yeah, I think the other way that I mentioned before is, if you start diving into your story and you recognize that there's more darkness than you may be able to face on your own, turn to a therapeutic relationship, initiate a therapeutic relationship if you don't have one, or bring some of those stories to your therapist to help have a trusted person walk you through some of those difficult stories. I would also say, too, take your relatives' stories with a grain of salt. If you come from a family like mine, where there's divorce and division within the family, there's different versions of the same story that are being told. And so it's hard to know what is the truth. And the reality is that whatever story is being told by that person, that's their truth. Kathy Their perspective. Kevin And the work I've done with my therapist is to take parts of those stories to form my own. And know that the greater truth is that all of those things are part of who made me who I am and to work through each of those things individually, but then to make sense of them for how I want my story to unfold going forward. Kathy And I would say a final way for those of you who want to dive into your stories, in addition to what we said is a couple of episodes back when we were going through grief, we talked about this process of listing. And we are using it in our current class as mapping. So basically what you do is you take some sticky notes and a poster board and you are going to map out the different time periods of your life. It's a brainstorming exercise where you're able to list memories, events, highlights. Kathy We will be able to give you a link to a resource called Life Events that might be able to jog your memory. We'll attach that to this episode notes. And I just, I'm excited for you to dive into this because we just see the value of it so much. Kevin Yeah, so just to recap, we want to encourage all of you to take some time to delve into your origin story. What makes you who you are? Where have you come from? All of those things will inform where you are going next. We hope that as you delve into those stories you'll find some connection, you'll find some perspective, and gain some empowerment in that. Kevin And so to conclude our podcast today, I'd like to offer a traditional Irish blessing for the journey that you still have ahead. “May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. May the sun shine warm upon your face. The rains fall soft upon your fields. And until we meet again, may God hold you in the palm of His hand. May God be with you and bless you. May you see your children's children. May you be poor and misfortune, rich in blessings. May you know nothing but happiness from this day forward. May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. May the warm rays of sun fall upon your home. And may the land of a friend always be near. May green be the grass you walk on. May blue be the skies above you. May pure be the joys that surround you. May true be the hearts that love you. Amen.”

Al and Kev talk about Moonstone Island Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:05: What Have We Been Up To 00:14:27: News 00:54:26: Moonstone Island 01:47:58: Outro Links Spells and Secrest Update One Lonely Outpost New UI Sneak Peek Orange Season 0.11 Wylde Flowers Eury’s Salon Update Re:Legend News My Time at Sandrock Plushies Paleo Pines Plushie Tchia Soul Meter Update Spirittea News Stardew 1.6 News Southfield Sugardew Island Sugardew Island Kickstarter Sunkissed City Abyss: New Dawn Abyss: New Dawn Kickstarter Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kevin: I’m, well it says “blank” in the show now. (0:00:40) Kevin: That just reminds me of Pokemon Gold and Silver. (0:00:43) Kevin: I was one of those guys who named my rival question my question word question word. (0:00:47) Kevin: Hello everyone, my name is Kevin. (0:00:49) Al: And we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:53) Kevin: Whoo! (0:00:54) Al: So the behind the scenes on that is, was it last episode? (0:00:59) Al: Neither Johnny nor Bev knew how I traditionally introduce. (0:01:02) Kevin: Yeah, there you go, yeah, you know me, I’m going to. (0:01:03) Al: So I wrote it down. (0:01:05) Al: I wrote it down in the show notes so that people always have it now. (0:01:10) Al: And the first episode we have it in, Kevin comments on it. (0:01:14) Al: So, great. (0:01:19) Al: Well, as usual, transcripts for the podcast are available in the show notes and on the website. (0:01:26) Al: This podcast, this episode, this episode, we are going to talk about Moonstone Island, (0:01:33) Al: the creature collection farming, like there’s only one, one of the creature collecting farming games. (0:01:36) Kevin: Yeah… (0:01:42) Kevin: You don’t talk about religion? (0:01:44) Kevin: Is religion one of them? I don’t remember. (0:01:46) Al: I can’t even remember if that’s one other thing. (0:01:48) Kevin: I don’t know. I still- I don’t think religion exists. (0:01:52) Al: That game smashed together so many buzzwords. (0:01:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:01:58) Al: Before that, we’re going to cover news. It has been a busy news week, (0:02:03) Al: so we’re going to cover all of that. But first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:08) Kevin: Alright, so, uh, first of all, Tears of the Kingdom, I’m still- I’ve- (0:02:14) Kevin: I don’t remember the last time I talked about it here, but I’ve played it in the background kind of… (0:02:20) Kevin: …uh, on and off, um, I’m not a- I’m not going for completion, but I am trying to hit every shrine. (0:02:29) Kevin: Every light route, and all that stuff. (0:02:32) Kevin: Um, I’ve already finished the deaths, I finished all the main story beats except for beating Ganon, (0:02:37) Kevin: and I’m over 100, uh… (0:02:38) Kevin: Shrines at this point, so I’m nearing the finish line. I might finish by next week. (0:02:43) Al: You’re doing the sensible completionist, not the full completionist. (0:02:44) Kevin: You know… (0:02:48) Kevin: Exactly. That’s correct! (0:02:51) Kevin: And that game is a blast. You know, of course, needless to say. (0:02:58) Kevin: Small stories, spoilers for people who don’t want to listen. The Fifth Sage (0:03:03) Kevin: was a real surprise. I think that’s a giant robot, and (0:03:07) Kevin: Monero is a fun to- (0:03:08) Kevin: to- a blast to run around with, um, and I’m so glad I got her early on, her relative. (0:03:15) Al: Yeah, my fun fact about her is that I got her before any of the other sages, because I just happened across her and did it. (0:03:22) Kevin: Yeah. (0:03:24) Kevin: That’s… (0:03:26) Kevin: That’s so wild, that’s so cool. (0:03:29) Kevin: Um, my brother Calvin, he didn’t do her until like after he beat all the shrines, so… (0:03:35) Kevin: He just like, “Well, I got this cool run and I don’t have anything to do with it!” (0:03:40) Kevin: Um… (0:03:42) Kevin: But yeah, no, uh, Tears of the Kingdom, great game, needless to say. (0:03:45) Kevin: Um, I’m just, haven’t been having a blast at that. (0:03:47) Kevin: Um, I’ve picked up Smash again this week, uh, (0:03:50) Kevin: They are releasing some new spirit. (0:03:52) Kevin: It’s like the fifth anniversary, something like that. (0:03:55) Kevin: Sakurai refuses, cannot be stopped from working on that game. (0:04:01) Kevin: But a good reason to pick up again and smash a smash, always fun. (0:04:06) Kevin: Aside from that, the Rainbow Road obligatory shout out here. (0:04:13) Kevin: Rainbow Road Radio, some of the stuff I’ve been talking about on that show recently. (0:04:18) Kevin: Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga the game (0:04:22) Kevin: Boy Advance RPG. We did an episode on that and boy that game is amazing! I played it when I was younger, it was amazing back then and I’m glad that it is still fantastic now. (0:04:38) Kevin: Have you played any of the Mario and Luigi games? Al? (0:04:40) Al: I have not. That was the one you covered last week, in the last episode, right? Yeah. I enjoyed listening to that. It was good fun, but it did confirm to me that I probably don’t want to play it. So I’ve played a couple of the Paper Mario games, and I’ve played what was the Mario RPG last year, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t think I like turn-based battles anymore. And that’s fine. (0:04:41) Kevin: Yes. (0:04:52) Kevin: Yes. Mmhmm. Yep. Mmhmm. Sure. (0:05:10) Al: For that reason, I suspect I wouldn’t like this game, because that’s a huge part of the game, right? (0:05:16) Kevin: It is. Right, but like one of the joys in my opinion where it succeeds is it’s very dynamic even for turn based game because of the (0:05:28) Kevin: The counters and the the timing and jumping these it’s still repetitive (0:05:34) Kevin: actions (0:05:34) Al: So I understand that, but actually I think that makes it worse for me because it’s not turn-based battling then, right? (0:05:40) Al: Like it’s turn-based with a little bit of real time. (0:05:44) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:05:45) Al: So because I had that in Mario RPG as well, they did that. (0:05:46) Kevin: - Yeah? (0:05:47) Al: It’s like, oh, if you, if you, if you press the button at the right time, it increases your attack, or if you press it at the right time, you get, you take zero damage. (0:05:48) Kevin: They did that? (0:05:56) Al: And it’s like, okay, well, I need to do that then. (0:05:58) Al: And there are so many battles where you basically can’t win it unless you do, or you obviously (0:06:04) Al: have a ridiculous degree, unless you do those things. (0:06:07) Al: And to me, it just turns for, it just makes it annoying because it’s like, I can’t just do a turn-based battle. (0:06:13) Al: It’s turn-based battle, but I also have to have the right timing, which to me takes away the advantage of the turn-based battles. (0:06:14) Kevin: Yeah. (0:06:18) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:06:20) Al: So I understand why people would like that, but for me, it doesn’t, it actually makes (0:06:21) Kevin: Okay. (0:06:25) Kevin: Yeah. (0:06:25) Kevin: I- I get that, right? (0:06:27) Kevin: Because, yeah, one of the advantages of turn-based battles is definitely turn your brain off, sort of thing. (0:06:32) Kevin: Um. (0:06:33) Kevin: Yeah, no, I- I- I can see that. (0:06:35) Kevin: Um. (0:06:36) Kevin: But, uh, regardless, the game’s fantastic. (0:06:38) Kevin: It’s hilarious. (0:06:38) Kevin: It’s amazing. (0:06:39) Kevin: Uh. (0:06:40) Kevin: Go listen to that episode of Rainbow Road Radio if you guys haven’t heard it. (0:06:44) Kevin: And check out that game if you guys haven’t played it, it’s still a- or 20, whatever, however many years it’s been. (0:06:47) Al: It’s 20, 21. (0:06:49) Kevin: Um. (0:06:50) Kevin: No, I know. (0:06:51) Kevin: I don’t- I don’t know what it should be. (0:06:52) Al: No, it was definitely a fun listen to hear you two talk about it, even if I know I’m not going to play. (0:06:54) Kevin: Um. (0:06:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:06:58) Kevin: Thank you. (0:06:59) Kevin: I appreciate it. (0:06:59) Kevin: Um. (0:07:00) Kevin: And, uh, well, now talking about the episode that will be released out at the- when this episode is- of Harvest Season’s out. (0:07:08) Kevin: Um, I watched something called The King of Kong. (0:07:11) Kevin: Have you heard of this at all, Al? (0:07:12) Al: No, I thought you were just saying King Kong in a funny way. This is like an actual “I have not, what is this?” (0:07:18) Kevin: Nope. (0:07:19) Kevin: Yep. (0:07:20) Kevin: Okay. (0:07:20) Kevin: So, The King of Kong is a documentary from like, 2007, I believe it is. (0:07:26) Kevin: Um. (0:07:27) Kevin: It was- it’s- it- it’s not super high production. (0:07:32) Kevin: It’s not like a big m- Hollywood movie release. (0:07:35) Kevin: It was directed by, uh, Seth Gordon, who ended up becoming a successful big Hollywood director because of this documentary, actually. (0:07:44) Kevin: Um, but it is a smaller, uh, project, it is a documentary about, uh, a- I should describe this- a competition of sorts between- a rivalry, let’s say, between a man named Billy Mitchell and a man named Steve We- Weebie, uh, over getting the world record in Donkey Kong, the arca- original arcade game, um, right? (0:08:11) Kevin: And so the way– (0:08:14) Kevin: The way this documentary is filmed and presented, it’s a very underdog story because Billy Mitchell is a world champ and record holder in like 10 different games like Pac-Man, Mrs. Pac-Man, Donkey Kong Jr., etc., etc., right? (0:08:28) Kevin: And then Steve Weebie’s just like this teacher with just a dad and all of a sudden he comes and gets this record and there’s a lot of drama involved because Billy Mitchell is closely associated with the– (0:08:44) Kevin: It’s called Twin Galaxies, the group that essentially is the authority on the records at that time of these types of arcade games. (0:08:54) Kevin: So like, for instance, one of Weebie’s early record attempts, he sent in a tape and they didn’t accept it because they said they needed to see it in person, yada yada. (0:09:06) Kevin: And so he goes in person and creates a new record, but then Billy Mitchell sends in a different tape and that one gets accepted because– (0:09:14) Kevin: And so there’s a lot of back and forth and drama. (0:09:18) Kevin: And it’s a good watch. I recommend it to people who haven’t seen it. (0:09:22) Kevin: But it’s interesting because the story does not end there. (0:09:28) Kevin: We watched some follow-up documentary and actually there’s been some court cases in the news. That’s why we kind of brought it up now. (0:09:36) Kevin: So I won’t go too much into detail of whether you guys can listen to the episode over at Rainbow Road Radio if you want to hear it. (0:09:44) Kevin: But long story short, Billy Mitchell is an awful, awful person who wants to be number one and will stop at nothing and step on everyone and backstab and control the narrative to do so. (0:09:49) Al: Oh. (0:10:00) Kevin: That much you can easily see in the original King of Kong documentary, so that’s not a shocker. But seeing the extent of how that goes, it’s a wild story. (0:10:14) Kevin: So again, that is called King of Kong. That’s the original documentary, but there is even follow-up documentaries made by more amateurs and stuff investigating more about the story. (0:10:26) Kevin: So it is a wild tale over several decades. (0:10:30) Kevin: But yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to. What about you? What’s going on with you? (0:10:30) Al: interesting. Yeah just before that I noticed that the Seth Gordon the director he did he did the 2017 Baywatch film as well this is like yes yeah so like yeah when you say he’s done Hollywood stuff he’s at he’s done proper big Hollywood stuff as well (0:10:44) Kevin: Yeah, and he did Horrible Bosses, that comedy with, I don’t know what it’s called, but yeah. (0:10:52) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yep. And King of Kong was kind of his breakthrough. Everyone took notice. (0:10:59) Al: Well, what have I been up to? I have obviously been playing Moonstone Island quite a bit for the last couple of weeks. Yeah, the behind-the-scenes stuff is we were meant to do this episode two weeks ago and I messaged Kevin on this Friday and said, “Can we delay the episode because I’ve played like 10 minutes of the game?” I just had not… We’ll get into that with stuff but I just had not. (0:11:06) Kevin: Yeah, I played a good bit too. I didn’t play it the last week. (0:11:29) Al: Managed to push myself to properly play the game. (0:11:31) Al: So I have now played a decent chunk of the game. (0:11:34) Al: So, um, yeah, we’ll, we’ll actually talk about it. (0:11:37) Kevin: Now we can talk about it, yay! (0:11:39) Al: Um, I’ve also been, uh, trying to finish up Hollow Knight as well. (0:11:44) Al: So I managed to get back into it and I’ve defeated a big chunk of the bosses. (0:11:49) Al: And I think I’ve got two bosses left to go. (0:11:52) Al: Um, so I’m, I’m getting there, but, uh, yeah, we’re getting, we’re getting pretty difficult, getting pretty difficult. (0:11:57) Kevin: Okay, oh, I bet oh my gosh. I’ve seen some of those later bosses Jesus wheez that’s some nutty stuff That’s off to you Hollow Knight people (0:12:06) Al: Yeah, it’s interesting because the one I’m currently on is like, it’s not the actual individual boss isn’t difficult, but the difficulty of it is there are six of them. And you have to defeat like all of them before, yeah. And they’re all, and they can do up to two at a time. So like doing one of them at a time would probably be reasonably easy. I probably would have done it by now. But the problem is then they suddenly go, “Oh, and here’s There’s a second one you have to deal with at the same time. (0:12:18) Kevin: Oh! It’s a gauntlet. (0:12:36) Al: You’re like dodging one, but as you dodge one, the other one gets you. (0:12:39) Al: You’re like, no, so it’s like there’s so many times where it’s like, I would have definitely beaten it if it weren’t for the fact that I had two at a time and stuff (0:12:46) Al: like that. So, yeah, it’s it’s pretty it’s it’s interesting how you can have that. (0:12:51) Al: Right. Like it’s not it’s not a very difficult. (0:12:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh, yeah that sounds gnarly. (0:12:53) Al: They’re not difficult bosses, but putting them all together like that makes it very (0:12:58) Al: difficult. (0:13:00) Al: So, yeah, but it’s been good fun. (0:13:02) Al: I think I’ve managed to get, uh, like four of. (0:13:06) Al: Um, so I got pretty close that time, frustratingly close, but we’ll get, we’ll get there soon, we’ll get there soon. (0:13:11) Kevin: Dang oh my god (0:13:15) Al: Um, so yeah, no, that’s really, it’s really good fun. (0:13:17) Al: Um, I’m definitely at the point in that game though, where I do not want to explore anymore, I do not want to backtrack anymore. (0:13:23) Al: Like I have done all of that. (0:13:25) Al: I just want to get to the last boss and kill him and be done with it and get onto the next game when it comes out. (0:13:30) Al: Right. (0:13:30) Al: I, the becomes a point with those games where you’re like, I’m done exploring. (0:13:34) Al: Thanks. And the problem is… (0:13:36) Al: Obviously, Medtrivenia is the whole point of them is exploring and backtracking. (0:13:39) Al: So they don’t have a lot of fast travel. (0:13:42) Al: There is some, but it’s not a lot of it. (0:13:44) Al: So you still have to do a lot of traversal of the map to get from boss to boss. (0:13:48) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I get that. And Hollow Knight’s a special case because the DLC is just stuck in there, like, you can’t tell where the DLC is at a glance, right? (0:14:00) Kevin: There’s no DLC menu option, like, you’re doing over a hundred percent. (0:14:06) Al: Yeah, I haven’t, I haven’t even paid attention to what I’m doing there. (0:14:10) Al: I suspect at this point, I’m just, I’m going for the like final main boss. (0:14:15) Al: And if I’ve done any of the DLC stuff, then fine. (0:14:19) Al: But I don’t think I’m going to like focus on any of that. (0:14:22) Kevin: Yeah, no, no, yeah, that makes sense, it’s a wide one, it’s a big game. (0:14:26) Al: Super fun. (0:14:28) Al: All right. (0:14:28) Al: Awesome. (0:14:29) Al: Well, that’s what we’ve been up to. (0:14:30) Al: Let’s talk about some news. (0:14:32) Al: So first of all, we have just a couple of small things about spells and secrets. (0:14:36) Al: So their Xbox version is out now, and they have also said that they are not happy with the Switch version and they’ve fired their porting team and they’ve got a new porting team for the Switch version. (0:14:46) Kevin: Oh snap! (0:14:48) Al: The actual wording is we ourselves are incredibly unhappy with the Nintendo Switch (0:14:52) Al: version. This situation is incredibly frustrating for us to achieve the best possible results. (0:14:57) Al: We’ve decided to bring a new porting team on board. (0:15:01) Al: We would like to reevaluate the source code and are currently waiting for feedback on the current status of the source code. (0:15:06) Al: Well, we can’t make any current problems concrete promises at this moment. (0:15:09) Al: We remain optimistic about making positive progress. (0:15:13) Kevin: Well, I mean, hey, I salute them for wanting to improve the quality of the Switch ports aren’t always the best, so you know [laughs] (0:15:20) Al: One lonely outposts have posted a… post. They have updated us on what they’re working on and they have teased a UI overhaul. So the whole UI is getting an overhaul. (0:15:40) Kevin: That’s a big one. Probably respectable. (0:15:43) Kevin: And played it obviously. (0:15:44) Kevin: UI is a very critical… (0:15:46) Al: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’ve not played the game. So looking at the two, I’m like, I don’t have an opinion on which I prefer because I’ve not experienced them properly. But they definitely it feels like it’s of the same style. So it doesn’t feel completely different, but it looks like they’re exactly it’s all functional stuff. Yeah. So they’re making it look I suspect it’s like UX based stuff and and things like their newest update. They’ve got the patch as far there as well. (0:16:02) Kevin: Right, it’s not like visually aesthetically. It’s more functional. (0:16:16) Al: It’s all bug fixes and small changes. (0:16:19) Al: So the link to that will be in the show notes as well. (0:16:23) Al: Orange season. (0:16:25) Al: Now, this is an incredible patch note. (0:16:28) Al: So this is version 0.11, 0.11. (0:16:32) Al: And the patch note starts off with narrative, (0:16:36) Al: added a main story. (0:16:42) Al: And I am absolutely fascinated by this. (0:16:42) Kevin: Uhh… (0:16:44) Al: Like, does this mean there was no main story? (0:16:46) Al: Or is this additional main story? (0:16:50) Al: I mean, it says, “After settling in Orange Town, your new life seems to be going fine. (0:16:55) Al: However, the previous owner of your farm returns, and he wants it back on this journey to guarantee your future. (0:17:00) Al: Your new life will mingle with a cast of strange, friendly, and conflicting personalities. (0:17:05) Al: What kind of people will you and them be at the end?” (0:17:09) Al: So this sounds to me like the game up till this point was like the daily farming aspect of things, (0:17:15) Al: but without like an overall. (0:17:16) Al: Marking story, which is an interesting way to go about it. (0:17:19) Kevin: Umm… yeah. (0:17:22) Kevin: Umm… (0:17:24) Kevin: Spoilers, Moonstone Island could use an update like this! (0:17:26) Al: Yeah, it’s interesting. Neither of us have played it, so I don’t think we have, but there you go. If you’ve been playing the game and you’re like, “This game could do with story.” (0:17:28) Kevin: That’s all I wanted to say. (0:17:32) Kevin: But it is funny to read, just added a story. (0:17:48) Al: Well, have I got good news for you? (0:17:52) Al: Speaking of having good news for you, specifically Kevin, I’ve got good news for you. (0:17:53) Kevin: Oh! (0:17:56) Kevin: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHH! (0:17:57) Kevin: I just saw the news! (0:17:58) Al: Wildflowers, the Yuri’s Salon, I think it’s Yuri, we just think it’s Yuri. (0:17:58) Kevin: AHHHHHH! (0:18:07) Kevin: Yep, I think so. Hold on, I’m listening right now. It’s in the trailer. (0:18:11) Kevin: Yeah, it’s Yuri. Okay. (0:18:12) Al: Yuri’s Salon update is out today, if you’re listening to this on the release date, so 31st of January. (0:18:20) Al: And it brings a whole new, romanceable character, and the salon that she… (0:18:30) Al: I haven’t seen anything about pronouns, but I’m assuming she… (0:18:30) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t think so (0:18:35) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:38) Kevin: So that’s (0:18:40) Kevin: RAVERS! (0:18:40) Al: This is how you do updates, right? You go, “Hey, by the way, there was a tease, right? (0:18:47) Al: So they showed a tease of the outline of the character and said someone new is moving to Fairhaven, and then posted that yes, they are romanceable. And then the next day they were like, “Oh yeah, so the release is coming next Wednesday. Cheers.” (0:19:05) Al: Yep, good, good, good, good release in full. (0:19:06) Kevin: Umm… (0:19:10) Kevin: Yep, good reveal. (0:19:12) Al: Reveal, that’s the word I’m looking for. (0:19:12) Kevin: Like, it’s… (0:19:14) Kevin: First of all, adding a new character, that’s a big deal in any farming game. (0:19:18) Al: Yeah, especially Wildflowers, because it’s very character-based. (0:19:20) Kevin: Umm… Right… (0:19:26) Kevin: Yep, very character driven, right? (0:19:28) Kevin: Like, the setting is pretty small, so they compensated that by doing a lot of interactions with the characters. (0:19:34) Kevin: Um, so that’s… (0:19:36) Kevin: That is interesting to see, also like interesting to see added at this point, right? (0:19:44) Kevin: Because like it might say if I’m already married to Ray, I’m not gonna end that for Yuri. (0:19:46) Al: Yeah, I love how you’re not even saying Wesley, you’re just saying Ray. (0:19:48) Kevin: Sorry Yuri, I’m sure you’re fine, but you know. (0:19:50) Kevin: But that said, it will be interesting to see… (0:19:56) Kevin: It’s the reason I played the game! I’ll be honest! (0:20:04) Kevin: But… (0:20:06) Kevin: But yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I’m hopeful there will be other stuff sneaked in. I can’t wait to play it. (0:20:13) Kevin: I’ll fire up wildflowers again. Great, good excuse to do that again. (0:20:18) Kevin: One thing… Oh gosh, so it’s a salon, right? So you can redo… (0:20:26) Kevin: Yeah, Terry. Her name is Terry. Terry’s hair. It’s about to say Valerie. I’m mixing those two up now. (0:20:28) Al: Yeah. (0:20:32) Al: Quite a large selection of hairstyles, it looks like, and hair colors. (0:20:33) Kevin: But it’s I feel almost uncomfortable (0:20:36) Kevin: I feel so almost uncomfortable because I’m so used to that hairstyle it’s so iconic for the character whatever like you know it’s the look (0:20:44) Al: Yeah. (0:20:45) Al: Yes. (0:20:45) Al: It’s not like, it’s not like a game where you have a character customizer. (0:20:49) Al: Cause the whole point is it’s Tara’s story and you’re playing as Tara. (0:20:53) Kevin: Right. (0:20:54) Al: So like, this is the, I mean, can you change clothes? (0:20:55) Kevin: Yup. (0:20:57) Kevin: You can? Yes. (0:20:58) Al: Right. (0:20:58) Al: So there is at least some level of customization there. (0:21:00) Al: So, and it’s not like it doesn’t make sense to be able to change your hair. (0:21:01) Kevin: Yeah. (0:21:01) Kevin: Yeah. (0:21:05) Al: Like people change their hair. (0:21:06) Kevin: Yeah! (0:21:06) Al: That’s a thing that happens. (0:21:07) Kevin: Yeah! (0:21:08) Al: Uh, but I understand, I understand your concern. (0:21:08) Kevin: Yeah, you know, I… (0:21:11) Kevin: Yeah, I… (0:21:12) Kevin: Yeah, no, it makes sense. (0:21:13) Kevin: I… (0:21:14) Kevin: It’s… (0:21:15) Kevin: There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. (0:21:16) Kevin: I’m just uncomfortable with the change! (0:21:20) Kevin: I tear his blood, I don’t like it! (0:21:23) Kevin: But that said, hey, wildflowers in the news again, I’m very happy, happy day. (0:21:26) Kevin: Um, and boy, that r- that’s dropping soon, I like shadow drop like that. Good stuff, wildflowers. (0:21:32) Al: Yeah, good thing we’re doing this episode before it comes out. (0:21:37) Al: Awesome detail, we don’t have any like more details, but if we get them, we’ll put them in if there’s anything else coming in and it does, I actually didn’t check does it say, (0:21:47) Kevin: Heh heh. (0:21:48) Al: I think it’s a free update. I haven’t seen anything but it being DLC. Yeah, they’re called. (0:21:51) Kevin: I would assume so. They have not done anything paid as- (0:21:54) Al: Yeah, and they’re calling it an update. They’re saying the Wildflowers fourth update Yuri salon is coming next. I think that implies that it’s free. (0:22:02) Al: Hey, look, Re-legend. This is just a really small thing to say that they have said that they’re going to do more updates. That’s it. They’ve said that, oh, they got some money to work on the game more, so they’re going to do that. That’s it. That’s literally it. (0:22:09) Kevin: They’re going to add more buzzwords into the game. (0:22:28) Al: There was a bug fix update recently as well. (0:22:31) Kevin: I guess. (0:22:32) Al: I love some of these, I love some of these bugs in games. (0:22:36) Al: “Ensure the player’s character does not pass through the map when jumping off their magnus near the chest in the goblins resort in the desert biome.” (0:22:46) Al: That is so specific. (0:22:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:22:50) Kevin: Oh my gosh, that’s funny. (0:22:53) Kevin: Okay, what a, what a re-legend. (0:23:00) Al: The interesting thing is, I looked at the comments on Steam and they’re all positive. (0:23:08) Al: It’s like unexpected but not unwelcomed. (0:23:08) Kevin: Well, look, hold on. (0:23:10) Al: Surprising but fantastic news. (0:23:12) Al: Great news! (0:23:13) Kevin: Now hold on. (0:23:14) Al: Like there’s loads of like actual- and this is the first time I’ve seen like positive comments on anything for League of Legends for like five years! (0:23:24) Kevin: Well, I mean, you know, coming out was a good first step, right, in making positive comments, finally. (0:23:24) Al: Yes, that’s true. (0:23:32) Kevin: But, like, uh, look, alright, this is anecdotal, this is just my experience, I don’t know who anyone who’s played the game, so, you know, is it all just, uh, uh, uh, you know, fake town, and, uh, just the fake comment section by, populated by the devs, I don’t know, it’s possible, I’m just putting it out there. (0:23:40) Al: Does anyone? (0:23:54) Kevin: Did the game come out? I don’t have confirmation yet. (0:23:59) Al: And they do, there is one comment on it, which is just give them guns. (0:24:05) Al: So I think I know where that person’s, I think I know where that person’s mind is (0:24:08) Kevin: I wonder where… (0:24:10) Kevin: You know, did I tell you, or do you know why they added guns in Power World? (0:24:16) Al: That was that they’d said that they’d added it because they wanted it to be big in America basically, right? (0:24:22) Kevin: Yep, yep (0:24:23) Al: Which is like one of those things where it’s like, oh no, but also yeah (0:24:30) Kevin: They’re not wrong great like that’s the reaction like oh, but they’re not wrong (0:24:36) Al: Yeah My time at Sandrock They’ve got some plushies. So if you are really if you really love them my time at Sandrock characters (0:24:39) Kevin: Boy (0:24:46) Al: They have (0:24:46) Kevin: Wait that the characters they’re not creatures or animals (0:24:49) Al: They’re they’re the characters Logan and Fang just of course you don’t you’ve not played the game (0:24:57) Al: They’ve also got some figurines (0:25:02) Kevin: Terrawiobush, where’s that? (0:25:04) Al: Not on the my time at Sandrock page (0:25:09) Al: Speaking of plushies paleopines (0:25:12) Al: teasing some plushies Not out yet, but they teased our little foot (0:25:12) Kevin: What? What? (0:25:16) Al: of a plushie, a little foot and a back covered in spikes. (0:25:25) Kevin: I’m so excited. I wonder what dinos can’t tell based based off. Oh, I’m excited The dinosaurs are very well very likely get one (0:25:34) Al: Apparently, if you go on the on their link tree, they’ve already leaked what it is. (0:25:40) Al: It’s a carrot Anki. (0:25:42) Kevin: WHAT?! (0:25:42) Al: Anki, is it an Ankiosaurus? (0:25:44) Al: Sorry, Ankiosaurus. (0:25:45) Kevin: Oh yeah, probably ink. (0:25:46) Al: Anki-lo-saurus. (0:25:48) Kevin: Yeah, okay, yeah, oh, that’s a- (0:25:48) Al: Coming soon. (0:25:50) Al: I love that. (0:25:52) Al: It’s like they’ve got the link basically with the image, not the image of the actual plush, but the image of the what it is. (0:25:52) Kevin: Let’s make ship. (0:25:58) Al: And you click through it and it’s like, oh, campaign launches in four days and 19 hours. (0:26:10) Al: Thursday. Chia the game based on New Caledonia have released a cool new update or are going to release a cool new update in March which gives you well I guess let’s go let’s go the context of this game so this game is an explorationy type game but one of the big features of the game is you can jump into nature items so animals. (0:26:40) Al: animals and plants and stuff like that you can it’s called soul jumping and you have like a certain as you play the game you like build up your soul meter and you can use that to jump into animals and stuff like that. (0:26:53) Al: They are adding in the infinite soul meter so they say this comfort setting allows you to soul jump to your heart’s content without worrying about your meter depleting be a bird forever or a coconut or anything for that matter we’re happy. (0:27:07) Al: or if you like, it feels like a great. (0:27:10) Al: I mean, they say it’s not suggested for your first playthrough of the game, but. (0:27:16) Al: Do what you want. (0:27:17) Al: They’ve not stopped it. (0:27:18) Al: Like you can do it straight away. (0:27:19) Al: And if you just want to grab the jump in a bird and fly around this map forever, (0:27:24) Al: you can do that. (0:27:24) Al: And I think it’s pretty cool. (0:27:27) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:27:30) Al: Spirit tea, spirit tea, spirit tea have added item stacking. (0:27:36) Kevin: That feels like that should have been addressed a while ago. (0:27:42) Kevin: Don’t have that at the feet. (0:27:44) Al: really wanted to like this. And it’s good in some ways, but yeah, like there’s a lot of quality of life things that it doesn’t have that a lot of games have that makes me struggle, struggle to enjoy it as much. This was one of them, so they have removed it now, but I don’t know if I’m going to go back to it or not. They’ve also listed a bunch of stuff that they’re going to add. If you are enjoying the game. There you go. You can go. (0:28:05) Kevin: Whatever that means. (0:28:14) Al: Oh, look at the list of things they’re adding. (0:28:16) Al: Oh (0:28:16) Kevin: Speaking of enjoying games, uh, you know, Bev and, uh, Johnny enjoyed Stardew in last week’s episode. (0:28:25) Kevin: It was a great listen, good episode. (0:28:27) Kevin: And you know, I think some guy out there named Concerned Date saw that, I was like, “Oh, (0:28:33) Kevin: well if they harvest season reach 1.5, we can’t have them staying current!” (0:28:38) Kevin: So he drops the news! (0:28:40) Kevin: 1.6 is on its way, baby! (0:28:43) Al: Yeah, I mean, so like there’s not actually much news in this because we already knew it was coming. (0:28:48) Al: We already knew there was stuff in it. But he says 1.6 ended up being a little larger in scope than originally planned. Yeah, who knows what earth is happening here? He says this is the key bit here. (0:28:55) Kevin: little larger with concern to (0:29:05) Al: I’m done adding major new content to it now and it’s in a bug fixing and polishing phase until is ready for release. Thanks for your patience. (0:29:13) Al: It’ll be fun to see everyone play. He does say in the comments that it should come out, (0:29:18) Al: he says absolutely will come out in 2024. It will come to PC first. There shouldn’t be a big delay between PC and console/mobile. I think with the 1.5 update, it was a two-month delay between Steam and Switch, which is not too bad. The mobile one was the one that I think it was like three years to get for it to come to mobile. So hopefully that will be faster. (0:29:43) Al: He does say it will be fine to play this on an old save, but I’d probably recommend a new save just to experience everything in context, otherwise you’ll unlock a bunch of stuff right away when you load up your save. And I read that and went, great, that’s much quicker to cover all the new content for the episode! [LAUGHTER] (0:30:02) Kevin: Yeah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (0:30:05) Al: So there has been a bunch of things that he listed on, where is it? A new festival. (0:30:13) Al: Which I think we’re pretty convinced now that’s the New Year festival. Two new mini festivals. (0:30:19) Al: New late game content which expands on each of the skill areas. New items and crafting recipes. There’s a totem there, so presumably another warp totem of some kind or something like that. And what looks like a quiver, as in for archery. Georgia alternatives to some of the end game quests. 100 plus new lines of dialogue. Winter outfits for the villagers. (0:30:43) Al: New type of reward for completing billboard requests. Support for eight player multiplayer on PC. And I love right at the end he puts new farm type. Just casually adding that at the end of this massive list. Oh yeah, there’s going to be a new farm as well. I wouldn’t be concerned about him. He’s fine. He’s got a lot of money. (0:31:08) Kevin: I mean… (0:31:10) Kevin: No, I know he’s fine. I’m just concerned what he’s doing to him. Geez. (0:31:15) Kevin: Um, I can’t uh… (0:31:17) Kevin: But hey, 8-player farm. We can get all- we can finally have the all the harvest season hosts on one episode. (0:31:20) Al: Oh dear, yeah, so anyway, it’s coming this year and it’s feature complete, so hopefully it’s going to end up coming, releasing like when, during the month and the summer when I’m away, isn’t it? (0:31:24) Kevin: Live commentary as he started far. (0:31:43) Al: All right, so you might think that’s all the news. (0:31:46) Al: That’s not all the news. (0:31:47) Al: four new games as well to talk about. (0:31:51) Al: Oh yes! So, first of all we have Southfield. The little blurb for this one is ‘Weird farming meets silly physics in Southfield. Combine chaotic crops with unpredictable effects, (0:32:07) Al: build your dream farmstead and experiment with playful machinery. Wobble your way around an ever-changing island solo or with up to three friends and unearth its secrets.’ Now, we quite (0:32:21) Al: too many farming games and they don’t do interesting things. (0:32:24) Kevin: That’s true. Southfield said, “What if we do the exact opposite?” (0:32:25) Al: This game here does say that. So, this is this I love. I need to play this game. (0:32:33) Kevin: Alright, I do too. Okay, I’m gonna start with the big hook, and that’s the main character. It’s a (0:32:40) Kevin: big blue (0:32:43) Kevin: gumdrop head looking blob man with big eyes, and that’s kind of it. (0:32:49) Kevin: He’s humanoid he has arms and legs (0:32:51) Kevin: and a head with eyes and a little (0:32:54) Kevin: Pikmin type leaf on top just a little one little sprout (0:32:58) Al: Pretty generic. (0:32:58) Kevin: and he’s big (0:33:00) Kevin: Yeah, but he’s big and cartoony and the way he runs around his dynamic proportions and style fitting very much with the quote-unquote Weird there’s silly physics. It’s great. He does like big bounces spins, or he does like full-on tornado (0:33:16) Kevin: He rolls around in a ball at one- (0:33:19) Al: Yep, he rides on a quad bike you got quad bikes in this game (0:33:19) Kevin: Armadillo style. (0:33:21) Kevin: He does. (0:33:23) Kevin: Yep, he’s chopping down trees. (0:33:25) Kevin: The trees are actually falling. (0:33:27) Kevin: Not just poof, here’s your logs. (0:33:29) Kevin: They’re timbering over. (0:33:31) Kevin: Um… (0:33:32) Al: There’s an electric chicken that you’re carrying, you’re chasing and you get electrocuted by. (0:33:33) Kevin: logs you there they’re timbering over (0:33:40) Al: You can throw an axe to cut down fruit. (0:33:42) Kevin: You can get frozen into ice cubes. (0:33:45) Kevin: You can throw one of your fellow blob people full on hurricane spins rocks. (0:33:51) Kevin: There’s a fruit growing to gigantic proportions. (0:33:54) Kevin: I don’t know why. (0:33:56) Al: The machinery looks fun. (0:33:58) Kevin: So this is interesting because there’s conveyor belts and things presumably for automatizing things and whatnot. (0:34:05) Kevin: But because of the weird effects, they’re just this physics that like fruits and crops are just bouncing on the conveyors. (0:34:12) Al: And it’s a bunch of the machinery that seems to be like cannons as well So it’s like leaning into I just I love everything about this. This is fantastic. I need this game (0:34:12) Kevin: so, are you… (0:34:16) Kevin: yup (0:34:20) Kevin: it’s so good right and and like even and there’s crafting there’s you can build a house and other stuff um there’s you know your plots and your farms but like every crop I don’t think i’ve (0:34:40) Kevin: It’s big, it’s cartoony, it’s colorful, it’s fun. (0:34:44) Kevin: Southfield looks amazing! (0:34:46) Kevin: Um… (0:34:47) Al: There’s also some some buildings so you can like kind of, I guess, Fortnite-esque type building, right. You’ve got your your your wall, you put up your wall and you put up your roof properly designing your house how you want. (0:35:05) Al: Yep, this one is coming soon. And as of now, I only see information about it coming to Steam on Windows. (0:35:13) Al: Yep, this one’s going on the list, I’m definitely, I’m definitely playing this one. (0:35:17) Al: Next, we have, Sugar Dew Island, now, so, before, yeah, so the name, the name is terrible, (0:35:19) Kevin: Yup. (0:35:24) Kevin: Oh boy, oh boy, just they’re coming out swinging with that name. Oh boy. (0:35:32) Al: right? (0:35:33) Al: Let’s just get out of the way. (0:35:35) Al: It’s Stardew Valley versus Coral Island, right? (0:35:38) Al: Like it’s just, like where is all they, what’s, what’s with the name? (0:35:40) Kevin: No… (0:35:41) Al: It’s bad. (0:35:43) Kevin: I- (0:35:44) Kevin: Island’s overdone, but at least it’s an actual thing, right? (0:35:48) Kevin: I’m gonna put my foot down, draw the line in the sand. (0:35:51) Kevin: I don’t think any farming game should ever have the “do” in its name. Ever. Again. (0:35:54) Al: Whatever it is, is a bad name, right? Just whatever. One of the comments on YouTube is, (0:35:57) Kevin: Just… (0:35:58) Kevin: Just don’t try. (0:36:06) Al: “One might consider there’s a copy of Stardew, shut up.” So, one interesting thing just before we actually talk about the game is, I feel like this has been shared, it’s been advertised on every single Kickstarter game update. (0:36:24) Al: I have seen in the last one exactly every single one of them they seem to be talking about this. (0:36:26) Kevin: I saw it on a link on one of the earlier news article links I put and clicked on. (0:36:33) Al: I am fascinated about by this like what is the deal behind this game? (0:36:38) Kevin: Raid Shadow Legends. (0:36:39) Al: So let’s do the usual blurb in this cozy farming game you have to run your own farm shop take care of your animals and your farm sell your goods to the cute forest folk (0:36:51) Al: upgrade the island and fulfill smart. (0:36:54) Al: No, fulfill small orders from the Harmony Tree to fill the island with life again. (0:37:00) Al: Nothing about this seems unique. (0:37:03) Al: Comparing to the previous one, this just looks like it’s a farming game. (0:37:04) Kevin: nope I yep the the one oh gosh even the four quote-unquote force folk just look like harvest sprites the one thing I will say I I have one thing I’ve wanted is to run the shop the shipping bin that’s it I don’t know if (0:37:08) Al: Hey look, it’s a harvest moon. (0:37:30) Al: Yeah, this is the thing about those is, so Ooblets had a way to do that, and there’s been a couple of other games where there’s been a little bit of it, and it always just feels to me like it’s just a really inefficient way of selling things, right? Because you have to go in and you put a few things out in the shop, and then you have to like, you either, they either implement like a haggling thing, in which case I always feel like I’m not getting as much as I could, or it just ends up being why can’t I just throw these in the shipping box, right? (0:38:00) Al: I don’t feel like any of them have ever done it well, (0:38:04) Al: and I’m not sure I trust this. (0:38:06) Kevin: I I don’t think not off not what I’m looking because like you know thinking farms like you’re growing (0:38:13) Kevin: Huge amounts of crops rolling bulk and so like I don’t know but (0:38:16) Kevin: Yeah, the shop doesn’t need that’s the add more to that because otherwise boy This much like its name takes after a lot of other games a boy am I look (0:38:28) Kevin: Studio Ghibli has amazing art stuff, but boy. I’m I tired of seeing that (0:38:34) Kevin: aesthetic in these games. (0:38:36) Al: Yeah, it’s not like it looks bad or anything, but it’s not and and the game doesn’t actually look like the trailer Right the trailer is completely like just random animated stuff (0:38:36) Kevin: Um… (0:38:38) Kevin: No! (0:38:46) Al: Well, I know it does have some of the gameplay, but like it starts off with that style (0:38:48) Kevin: Well, presumably we’re not 100% sure, but (0:38:51) Al: It’s a completely different style than the I suspect actually (0:38:54) Kevin: Yeah, true true (0:38:56) Al: It looks fine. It’s not like it looks bad (0:38:59) Kevin: Yeah, it just (0:38:59) Al: But nothing about it can especially comparing it to what we just talked about nothing about this excites (0:39:05) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s it’s it looks fine, but not bringing anything new to the table. It’s a tough market (0:39:13) Kevin: Gotta do a bit more to (0:39:14) Al: Anyway, the Kickstarter is launching soon. (0:39:19) Al: Apparently, Steam says its planned release is Q2 this year, presumably that’s Early Access, (0:39:26) Al: but it doesn’t say on Steam that it’s going to be Early Access. (0:39:29) Al: I’m assuming they aren’t doing a Kickstarter to then release the full version in a matter of months. (0:39:37) Al: You would think not, but who knows. (0:39:41) Al: I noticed is Roca play. (0:39:43) Al: Uh, they. (0:39:44) Al: Are they a publisher or are they a developer? (0:39:48) Al: I’m not actually sure. (0:39:49) Al: They look to be both, but they did spells and secrets. (0:39:54) Al: They’ve done solar punk and they did, um, Oh, what was that one? (0:40:01) Al: There was another one that was like a, an island based one where you were like a pirate and you crashed into the island. (0:40:08) Al: And no, I don’t mean, and I realized that sounds exactly like the start of Dragon Quest Builders 2. (0:40:17) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t, um… (0:40:19) Kevin: Lose Lagoon? (0:40:21) Kevin: Castaway Paradise? (0:40:22) Al: Castaway Paradise. No, that’s not the one I was meaning, but that is another one that they’ve done. (0:40:25) Kevin: Stranded Sales. (0:40:27) Al: Stranded Sales. Yes, there we go. They did Strand- (0:40:29) Kevin: Oh my gosh, they… (0:40:31) Kevin: They actually have a game called Harvest Life. (0:40:34) Kevin: Oh my goodness. (0:40:36) Al: So, yeah, they did Beasties as well, which was the one that went on Kickstarter and then they cancelled the Kickstarter. (0:40:43) Al: And I don’t know, it’s a weird company. (0:40:46) Al: They have such an interesting mix of things that become really popular and things that are just really weird. (0:40:52) Al: Like Spells and Secrets has very positive reviews. (0:40:54) Al: It’s like 80% positive reviews on. (0:40:57) Al: And then Beasties has 50% rating. (0:41:00) Al: And she’s just like, that is such a big difference. (0:41:03) Al: They also have Super Dungeon Maker, which is like a… (0:41:06) Al: Zelda-style dungeon Mario Maker type thing, which has very positive reviews, it’s 84% positive. (0:41:17) Al: And Stranded Sales was… (0:41:19) Al: It was a game. (0:41:24) Kevin: That was a game. That feels like a few of these you could- (0:41:27) Al: Yeah, so like, you never quite know what you’re getting at Rokka Play. (0:41:31) Al: So, yeah, I guess we’ll see what happens. (0:41:36) Al: The punk hasn’t even come out yet, although it looks like they’re just publishing it, they aren’t… (0:41:40) Al: So I don’t… Yeah. (0:41:42) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’m not particularly excited about this one. (0:41:47) Al: But it is coming to Steam on Windows, Switch, PlayStation, and maybe Xbox. (0:41:53) Al: I don’t know whether that will be as a stretch goal, but it says Xbox question mark. (0:42:00) Al: So… (0:42:02) Al: Next, we have Sunkist City. (0:42:06) Al: life sim set in an upbeat sun-kissed seaside metropolis full of funky vibes and quirky characters. Stake out your new life in the city, tending to DIY gardens, learning new skills and making lifelong friends and help bring life back to its once vibrant streets.” (0:42:26) Kevin: I don’t know. (0:42:28) Kevin: I can’t tell if this game looks good or bad. (0:42:31) Al: So, well, let’s just put it, it is almost exactly this. (0:42:36) Al: Stardew style. Imagine Stardew, it’s that. It looks like that, but it’s based in a city, (0:42:47) Al: not a small village. Every single thing I see, it just looks, you could tell me this was a Stardew and I’d go, “Oh, they changed the UI at some point.” That’s what I would do. The keg looks almost identical and the cheese press looks very similar and like these things (0:43:06) Al: and that’s not necessarily a bad thing right like stardew did very well uh but I feel like (0:43:14) Al: what is this doing that would make me play it rather than stardew and i (0:43:19) Kevin: quirky character whatever they don’t seem particular one has blue hair they (0:43:22) Al: look characters are hard to do well and I the problem is that I i don’t think you can do i don’t think I don’t think many people could do stardew and I think many people could make stardew (0:43:36) Al: but not as well and that’s what this strikes me at it doesn’t look bad but I i’m really fascinated as to why I would want to play this rather than stardew is the story really good are the characters really good that’s what i’d probably be looking for (0:43:40) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a very good way. (0:43:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:43:54) Kevin: Mmm. (0:43:54) Kevin: Yeah, because you’re right, like, I… (0:43:57) Kevin: I see absolutely nothing… (0:44:06) Kevin: Asphalt in this setting like there’s (0:44:06) Al: Yeah, yeah. And some buildings that look run down. There’s a ramen place. Okay. (0:44:11) Kevin: Yep, it’s (0:44:13) Kevin: Yep, that’s that’s kind of it. I don’t mechanically. I don’t see anything. I see fishing There’s no some type of gardening slash farming you even carry the items over your head all a stardew [laughs] (0:44:26) Al: Yeah, like the last game someone said it looks like a copy of Stardew, now this looks like a copy of Stardew, right? I don’t, again, I don’t want to like harp on it too much because like I’m sure it would be fun to play and I don’t want to put people down and I hope that, (0:44:42) Kevin: Yeah, again, it doesn’t look bad, but just… (0:44:43) Al: I hope that they’re successful but I just, (0:44:47) Kevin: It’s not standing out, right? (0:44:48) Kevin: And again, this is very… (0:44:50) Kevin: The cottagecore farming space, getting all buzzwordy here. (0:44:54) Kevin: Like it’s, it’s flooded with starting. (0:44:56) Kevin: It’s bad. (0:44:58) Kevin: So you’re going to put one out. (0:44:59) Kevin: You really need roots of Pacha. (0:45:01) Kevin: Do it in the Stone Age. (0:45:02) Kevin: Okay. (0:45:02) Kevin: And that’s something different. (0:45:04) Kevin: And it mechanically affects it, right? (0:45:07) Kevin: You have mam and stuff like it’s appropriate, but here in the city, (0:45:12) Kevin: you’re really just not seeing anything, uh, and again, this is just based off a handful of, uh, screenshots. (0:45:18) Kevin: So, you know, I could be speaking a bit too early, but I’m just not… (0:45:23) Al: So the interesting thing is, this is this developer’s second game, their first game came out in 2016, with its last update coming out in 2018. (0:45:32) Al: So I feel like they finished off that game, they saw Stardew Valley, and they’ve been working on that since then. (0:45:38) Al: Because Stardew got really popular in 2017, so just as they were finishing off. (0:45:44) Kevin: yeah that looks that’s exactly what it looks like ‘cause this is and their first game is wildly different called wasted it’s a post-apocalyptic pub crawler it’s in 3d and it’s a very wild looking game it does absolutely one thousand percent not cottagecore at all but uh… (0:45:58) Al: That looks more interesting to me. (0:46:05) Kevin: different game [laughter] (0:46:08) Al: Yeah, I don’t. Anyway, it’s there. It’s coming to Steam on all the platforms. So we’ll see, (0:46:18) Al: I guess. And the final one is Abyss New Dawn. Names, really? Names again, right? Like, is this a… Abyss New… It’s just games in general. But this is the thing. Why is it abyss new dawn. This makes it sound like it’s a second (0:46:28) Kevin: Why did it have to be so bad in this space? Why? (0:46:38) Al: abyss game, right? But also secondly, this describes i

Summary In this episode of "Coping", Kevin and Kathy discuss personal stories and describe how to transform limiting self-perceptions. They analyze common story myths that reinforce feelings of inadequacy, loneliness or invisibility, and discuss remedies like sharing authentic experiences in trusted communities. While childhood stories can instill negative mindsets, reclaiming one's narrative by embracing the fullness of their story arc can foster growth and connection. Kevin Well hello everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back to a new episode of “Coping”. Kathy Yes, Happy New Year everyone. We're so excited to begin a new series this episode and it's movie award season in our household so what does that mean Kevin? Kevin Yeah it's movie award season in everybody's household but our household is special in that I am a Screen Actors Guild member which means that every year around this time we get a bunch of screeners. I used to get them in the mail as hard copies and now everything's digital so I get an awards pin and I get to sign in and watch all the movies that are nominated and it's a fun time of year because we watch more movies than we do the whole rest of the year combined and then I get to vote so it's been a really fun award season a lot of good movies this year. Kathy Yes! Speaking of stories, in today's episode we're exploring the power of story and I'm excited to dive into this issue. Let's get started. Kathy So I know both you and I love a good story. Why do you think that is? Kevin I think that our stories offer a window into our experience, into our lives, truths about who we are where we've come from and it connects us to one another because, although we may not have come from the same background, the same experience, there's this common or shared humanity that each of us has that connects us on a deeper level and our pursuit for meaning and for connection. Kathy Yes absolutely. I think that the power of story has the ability to change the way that we perceive ourselves, others, and to bring us together in a world that right now seems so divided. Kevin That's right. You know, both you and I are in the business of story catching. As a hospital chaplain, I spend my days listening to people's stories and their experiences with new diagnosis and illness and recovery. I spend a lot of the time listening and hearing their story, affirming them. You do the same work as a life and vocation coach. A lot of your time is spent listening and capturing people's stories. Although we do give counsel and we do give guidance and reframing to people's stories, a large majority of the time spent is listening and hearing people's stories. Kathy Yeah, 100%. I love Harry Johnson's quote. He says, "we are all story. We are the stories we are told and we are the stories we tell ourselves." So I wonder, how are you the story you were told? Kevin Gosh that is complicated, right? There's parts of my story that were told about me that I have spent a lifetime and a lot of therapy trying to overcome. Stories of being dumb, being not good enough. Stories of struggle and generational bondage, but then there's also parts of my story of being a leader, being a spiritual guide, being a compassionate human, being a support person and I think both of those stories are true, but it's complicated and easy to get stuck in the hard parts of my story and the tension of my story. But yeah, it's it's definitely complicated, and a story that continues to unfold to this day as I continue in therapy. What about you? How are you the story that was told about you? Kathy Sure, so I shared this at our retreat on Sunday as we're going to explore this in our podcast today, one of the stories that I was told was that I could never measure up; I was not good enough, especially academically, and always trying to perform, please in my family of origin, and even now feeling that I don't live up to those expectations, but there was a marked period in my life where I decided to let go of that. It's still, like you said, an ongoing struggle to not live into the story we're told, but there was a time in my life where I decided, made a decision that I was not that story that I was told, but that I would be working against the story that I was told into a truer story. Kevin Can you unpack that a little bit? Like first, like how did you become aware of that story that was holding you back, that was keeping you stuck as we've talked about before? Kathy Sure. Kevin And what is the process of getting unstuck? Kathy Well, it was clear to me early on, this was like in college, there's an incident. I knew that I had a problem. achieved the highest levels that I could academically, and I would bring the results back to my family, and they were negatively received or not received in the way that I wanted them to be. It kept happening again and again. And even though I was more than content and satisfied with my progress, they were not. And that's where there was, if you want to call-- it's a dissonance, right? So there are two competing stories and they kept conflicting with each other. Kathy And I had to decide which story I wanted to tell. So I began to realize, even in this story that I was told that there are three main story myths: limiting stories, stories that keep us stuck throughout our lives. And that, typically, most everyone can identify with one or more of these. Kathy The first step in broadening your story or the story you were told is to identify what story myth resonates with you. Kevin What are those three story myths? Tell me a little bit about those. Kathy Sure. So the first one is, "I am not good enough". And you and I have already talked about that story myth and how it resonates within our lives. The child that somehow cannot please their parents in whatever way, looking for attention, wanting to be a star student. Not that there's anything wrong with all of the things that we're talking about, but when that becomes your perpetuating motive in your life, you're not living into your true story. You are still trying to be good enough. So the first story myth is, "I am not good enough". Kevin And how do we overcome it? Overcome if that is our story that is holding us back. How do we overcome that feeling? Because I know there's been times in my life where that was the story that was told about me, but I believed it. And the evidence that I had in my life was that what I was doing wasn't good enough. I wasn't living to my fullest potential. So, like thinking back to my 18, 19 year-old self, what could I say to him to help him in that story that he was stuck in, that I was stuck in and believed about myself because it was largely true. Kathy Well, this is where the power of story does come in. Number one would be to acknowledge maybe the places where you aren't good enough and begin to step out of the thick story into a broader story that is more a story of growth and change. So for me, for example, if I continued to believe the myth that I just wasn't good enough academically, that mindset would not help me to achieve. Instead, I had to begin to consider the possibility that maybe I was good enough and that that could potentially spark more growth and more abilities for me to step into the power and strengths that I actually had in my life. Instead of being stuck in, "Oh, that's Kathy, she just can't make the grades." Kevin Yeah, the way that I think about it is sometimes the way that we tell our story is that it's set, that there's a finality to it, right? That this is who I am and I'm not going to change. I'm not capable of change. What you're saying is the power of story is considering the possibility that, although it may be true that I'm not enough or my grades are not what I want them to be or my life is not what I want it to be, considering the possibility that maybe the story isn't set, maybe it isn't finished, maybe it isn't the final chapter, that maybe it's true that it's not enough and I want something to be different. And so I'm living into a new story out of that truth of I don't feel enough, but I'm going to seek out ways to have that story unfold in a new way going forward. That's so good. I think that makes so much sense that would be super intuitive for my young self that there was a lot that was pointing to the fact that I wasn't good enough and I wouldn't really amount to anything. I don't really know how things turned around for me, but looking back, I didn't want that to be my story. Kathy So you began to surround yourself with people who would write a new story for you. That's what happened in your life. I was there. You were around people like me who said, "no, your story isn't the, 'I didn't graduate from high school kid'. Your story is the story of someone who has a dream to go to Los Angeles and dream bigger than you can ever imagine for yourself and for your life." Kevin But part of it, I don't know if this is another, if this is related to another story myth, but I also believe that I was the only one that was struggling in this way that everybody else around me had their life together. I was the only one that was struggling. And what I learned is that those people around me that had their lives on a different path had come through a lot of trials and challenges and had overcome those. And because I learned that that was possible, I believed a new story for myself. Kathy And so you're touching on the second limiting story myth and that is "I am alone". Kevin Oh wow. Kathy "I am the only one going through this. No one understands." And here's the thing. It's true that nobody has gone through exactly what you're going through, when you're going through it, how you're going through it. But it's not true when we take on a mindfulness perspective about our story that says, "Okay, I am broke. I don't have any money. I don't know, I'm gonna lose my house." That there are others going through that right now, even as you say these words, right? And the antidote to this is the power of story because then you connect. Feeling alone is disconnecting. Sharing your story is connecting. Kevin How do you encourage somebody who's stuck in the "I am alone" story? It seems as though with this myth, there can be like a catch-22 scenario where they're alone and they don't have anybody to share their story with. And if sharing their story is gonna make them feel less alone, how do they break out of that? How does one who is actually alone and feels alone start using the power of their story to be less alone? Kathy Sure, and we don't wanna minimize the loneliness. The surgeon general has said that we're in an epidemic of loneliness. He's declared it a national emergency. So we're not minimizing anyone's loneliness or feelings of alone today. We wanna tell you that it is real. And so as he said, and as we say it, Be Well, "the antidote to loneliness is to reach out", is to find community, is to join a class, to go to your faith center community, to join one of our groups. We have a story class starting Wednesday mornings and it's virtual so you can join from wherever you are to reach out, to dispel the idea that you are alone, you are feeling alone. And so of course that is your truth, but to dispel that is by reaching out and connecting. Kevin Yeah, and one of the things I've learned from you and your work with students over the years is that oftentimes the student will start with you in private coaching and then you'll funnel them into a group setting and that is where they start to see some major breakthroughs in their life and start to overcome some of the obstacles in their life. Why is that? Why is it that somebody who is alone feels that their life starts to change when they're in a group setting as opposed to getting that help from a coach individually? Kathy Because we were created for community and relationships. So the mere fact of being related and connected in community is tapping into the true story of ourselves, that the Creator created us to be in relationship, is a relational God and desires us to be in relation and when we're not, we are literally cutting off of ourselves to how we were created. Kevin Mm-hmm, and that's how we get stuck in our story. Our story stops unfolding because we're not in community, part of what we were created for, yeah. And you said that there's three main myths. What's that? What's that third myth? Kathy Sure, so to review, "I am not enough" was the first one, the second one "is I am alone", and the third myth is "I am invisible". So this one is if you grew up as an invisible child in your family, you may struggle as an adult with a need to be seen. You know, it's the "pick me, pick me" sort of like, "oh I am not chosen." It is sometimes related to issues with belonging and fitting in. These folks grow up as sometimes literally talking louder than most people in the world to be heard and seen. It's very interesting. Kevin Wow, and what is the remedy? How do folks who feel invisible and are stuck in the story that I'm invisible -- how do they overcome that? Kathy So the folks that are invisible oftentimes have trouble leaning into their authentic story because they're denying their origin stories. Ironically, they wanted to be seen and then because they weren't, they deny the origin story. So one of the antidotes is a telling of their authentic story, like all the good, the bad and the ugly and sharing that authentically with the world, and with that then comes like we've said before that then they're heard and seen through the telling of their authentic story. They connect with someone who says, "wow, that happened to me too. Thank you so much for sharing that. I had no idea." And then they're no longer completely invisible, at least for that moment in time and space when they're being acknowledged for the very thing that they were denying. Kevin Yeah, I can imagine the folks who are set in the story "I'm invisible" only wanting to share the positive aspects of their story because they're wanting people to see them in a positive light. Perhaps there's this underlying belief that the reason why I'm invisible is because there's nothing valuable about me and so let me highlight the good things and leave behind the things that are causing me to be invisible. And what you're saying is that the exact opposite is true. Kathy But the broken pieces are the ones, yeah, the broken pieces are actually the connecting pieces, the missing pieces of the puzzle to help us feel more empowered, more seen, more heard, more connected. Kevin Yeah, that's really good. Kathy And one caveat I would say to everyone out there as you're exploring your origin story and your story misses, be sure to share your story with a trusted person. Sometimes you perpetuate this whole myth when I know someone who is an invisible person and they go back to their family of origin that continually perpetuates the idea they're invisible and they share the story and they're like, "So Kathy, they just shot me down" and I was like, "Okay, because you need to go to a safe and trusted person to share the story." Kathy So just one caveat there, don't go back to the same places where those reinforced stories were and thinking that, "oh, I'm gonna share my authentic story and now it's gonna work." Anything to say about that, Kevin? Kevin Yeah, no, I'm thinking is that we often go back to the origin of where we adopted that limiting aspect of our story to try to remedy them and thinking that if they can, if they're the ones that gave me this limiting story, they're the ones that reinforced that I'm alone, I'm invisible, I'm not enough. If I can go back and convince them that I am enough, that I'm not invisible, that perhaps that will make me feel better. And what I'm hearing you say is that, going back there is what reinforces the hurt and reinforces the false beliefs about ourselves and reinforces these myths that we believe that keep us stuck and set in our stories. Kevin And so instead we need to find safe people, new people perhaps who can see us, hear us affirm our story and set us on a new path of telling a new story and believing a new story about ourselves. Kathy Right, we wanna add characters to our story and we want the cheerleaders, we want the teammates, we want all of those people cheering us on as we write the new chapters or our story. Typically we can't go back to characters that have been left behind in the script. There's new characters that are being written in to tell a new story. Kathy So today we've learned the power of sharing, telling and embracing our stories to release or begin to begin a new story from our story myths. And if you love this topic, please consider joining our small group journey Reclaim that is starting Wednesdays from wherever you are. We're actually gonna be telling and writing our stories, which is a very powerful and healing in a community, a safe community. So check out our website for information to join that and thanks for joining us today. Kevin And so to end our episode today, I'd like to conclude with a story blessing by Jan Richardson. "You might think this blessing is a blessing that lives in the story that you can see. That it is curled up in a comfortable spot on the surface of the telling. But this blessing lives in the story beneath the story. It lives in the story, inside the story. In the spaces between. In the edges. The margins. The mysterious gaps. The enticing and fertile emptiness. This blessing makes its home within the layers. This blessing is doorway and portal. Passage and path. It is more ancient than imagining. It makes itself ever new. This blessing is where the story begins."

Al, Kevin, and Micah go through the games of the year and crown their winner for 2023. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:42: What Have We Been Up To 00:27:56: 2023 Releases 00:34:54: Previous Winners 00:36:30: Our Nominations 01:53:00: GOTY Debate 02:08:06: Decision 02:15:50: Outro Games Mentioned Games released this year Above Snakes Before the green moon Everdream valley Fae Farm Farming Simulator 23 Flutter Away Garden Buddies Garden In Harvest Moon: The Winds of Anthos Hello Kitty: Island Adventure Homestead Arcana Innchanted Lego Fortnite Loddlenaut Mineko's Night Market Moonstone Island My Time at SAndrock Paleo Pines Roots of Pacha Rune Factory 3 Special Season: A Letter to the Future Silent Hope Smushi Come Home Spells and Secrets Spirittea Sprout Valley Steamworld Build Story of Seasons: A Wonderful Life Sun Down Tchia Terra Nil Wildmender EA released in a previous year, 1.0 this year Ikonei Island Moondrop Sun Haven Coral island DDV EA released this year Cornucopia Fabledom Moonlight in Garland One Lonely Outpost Research Factory Song of the Prairie Snacko Previous Winners 2019: Doraemon SoS 2020: Summer in Mara 2021: Spiritfarer 2022: Ooblets Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of The Harvest Season. My name is Al. (0:00:39) Micah: I’m waiting, I’m waiting for you. (0:00:41) Kevin: Oh, I was waiting for you, too. I’m Micah. (0:00:44) Al: And we are here today to confuse you a lot. (0:00:46) Micah: And I’m Kev. (0:00:48) Kevin: There we go. (0:00:52) Al: It says, “We’re to talk about cottage core games.” (0:00:52) Kevin: Well, I mean, that goes without saying. (0:00:56) Al: Whoo! (0:00:57) Kevin: Whoo-hoo! (0:00:57) Al: Just, just in case people don’t know who they are, the names were the wrong way around there. (0:01:03) Al: So you know, they’re good luck. (0:01:06) Al: This is the fun episode of the year where I get two people on and we argue about which (0:01:14) Al: is the best game. (0:01:16) Al: And most of the time we come to a conclusion where we’re all accepting that that is our combined game of the year. (0:01:22) Kevin: Not this year. I refuse already. (0:01:26) Al: We will see where this year goes. (0:01:29) Al: But oh boy, oh boy, do I have some opinions. (0:01:34) Al: We’ll get to that when we get to that. (0:01:37) Al: Obviously transcripts are available for the episode and the show in general in the show notes and on the website. (0:01:44) Al: The game of the year stuff, Micah, what have you been up to? (0:01:46) Micah: I have been playing Dragon Quest Monsters 3 and I have also been playing Starfield quite a bit. (0:01:48) Al: Shock, shock harder. (0:01:52) Kevin: Good stuff. How many slimes are on your teeth? (0:01:59) Al: Interesting. What do you think? (0:02:01) Micah: I… (0:02:03) Micah: Okay. (0:02:04) Kevin: This, this is the response I hear every time I ask about it. (0:02:08) Micah: I very much understand two things. (0:02:14) Micah: I am a fan. (0:02:17) Micah: I am a fan of Bethesda game design and have been for many years. (0:02:22) Micah: So there is a level of comfort that comes with it. (0:02:27) Micah: I also understand that it is kind of dated game design. (0:02:33) Micah: And it all sort of feels the same as far as Bethesda goes. (0:02:40) Micah: But because I like that, I appreciate it. (0:02:44) Kevin: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I’m a Tetris fan, and Tetris hasn’t changed once in the 40 years it’s been out. (0:02:52) Al: That’s not true! That’s not true, Kevin. (0:02:54) Kevin: Yeah, I know that’s not true. (0:02:56) Al: We know, you know, you know that Tetris has changed. (0:02:58) Al: It has improved. It has moved with the times. (0:02:59) Kevin: Yeah, it is. (0:03:01) Micah: Tetris Effect is one of the greatest Tetris games of all time. Tetris 99. I would say, (0:03:04) Al: Exactly. Exactly. (0:03:06) Micah: I would actually argue that Tetris has done more changing than most franchises do. It’s kind of impressive. I don’t know, it’s kids. It can be cozy, right? Tetris can be a cozy (0:03:14) Kevin: You’re right, especially one we’re a fan of in particular. (0:03:19) Al: You don’t come, we don’t come for Tetris here, Kevin. (0:03:22) Kevin: I mean, we could. (0:03:28) Kevin: We could argue which one’s the best shaped piece. (0:03:31) Al: They also have their scam game that Cody’s playing. (0:03:31) Micah: Their scam game? No. (0:03:34) Kevin: Ah, well. (0:03:35) Al: Oh, have you not heard this, Micah? She’s playing a game that, like, you get points and then apparently once you hit a million or two million points you can win a free cruise, (0:03:45) Al: and I’m convinced it’s a scam. I’m waiting for the day that she gets to the right number of points and then, like, we never hear from her again because she’s, like, shipped off to have our organs harvested or something. (0:03:45) Micah: What? That does sound kinda scary. (0:03:49) Kevin: It does. (0:03:57) Micah: Dear God, all because of Tetris. (0:04:03) Kevin: Well, at least she had fun getting there. (0:04:05) Al: Anyway, so Starfield. (0:04:06) Kevin: That sounds like the game of the year to me. (0:04:10) Al: So what you’re saying is, if you like Starfield, you’ll like Starfield. (0:04:13) Al: That’s what you’re saying. (0:04:14) Micah: Yeah, if you like Bethesda games, Bethesda RPGs, (0:04:20) Micah: then you’ll probably like Starfield. (0:04:22) Micah: I think that there’s a lot of really neat things that they do with the. (0:04:27) Micah: Like space travel portions of it, there’s there’s a lot of really cool the like ship combat, space combat and stuff like that is very, very interesting. (0:04:37) Micah: It’s fun and the more that you kind of get comfortable with the how things function in the world, the you know, the more comfy of a game it is to. (0:04:49) Kevin: Okay, serious question. Have you played No Man’s Sky? (0:04:52) Micah: I have. (0:04:53) Kevin: to that (0:04:55) Micah: It is like if no man’s sky. (0:04:57) Micah: I had way more polished and was much more fleshed out and had much more like story elements to it. (0:05:09) Micah: I think that like primarily my enjoyment of Bethesda games comes from their writing. (0:05:17) Micah: And because there are just as an example, there’s a quest that I stumbled on by… (0:05:27) Micah: killing a space pirate and when I looked in his inventory there was a note and when I read the note that it unlocked this huge side quest that was like hours long. (0:05:40) Micah: Which is like I could have very easily missed that. (0:05:44) Micah: And I love that there’s such depth to like how stories play, like side stories even play out in Bethesda games like that. (0:05:57) Micah: So many times in Elder Scrolls games and things, you know, I’ll just stumble onto a cave and there’s a really deep story that’s written into this group that moved into this cave or whatever and it’s something that you could very easily miss. (0:06:16) Micah: It really makes me appreciate how much effort they put into writing things that people could never play in their, you know… (0:06:27) Micah: They’ll play through the game but there’s plenty of that in Starfield. (0:06:36) Al: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I’ve have enjoyed seeing a lot of the stuff online about all the kind of like side stuff, which has been for me, probably more fun than actually playing the game would be. So like, I totally get if you enjoy the game, then it makes it so much more fun, right? Because you’re finding all these things and just kind of stumble across this. But yeah, for me, it’s like, yeah, I enjoy watching someone post about it online or post a video or something like that. I think I know the side story you’re talking about, because that’s that’s the one that most people tend to go to. (0:06:42) Micah: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:06:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:07:12) Micah: Yeah, it’s a pretty important one because it, especially early on it, it gives you access to things that you would not have otherwise, that are pretty important. (0:07:22) Al: Yeah, you just confirmed it’s the one I’m thinking of. (0:07:28) Al: OK, well, I’m glad you’re enjoying it. That’s the important thing. That’s what we play games for. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yeah, well, we, we actually could do greenhouse. (0:07:32) Micah: And you know, I could talk about Dragon Quest monsters endlessly, but I’ll save everybody’s. (0:07:37) Micah: I’ll save everyone’s ears for… (0:07:40) Kevin: I didn’t all gladly listen to Dragon Quest talk for. (0:07:42) Al: Let’s discuss that later. (0:07:44) Micah: Yeah, I think that’s probably what I’m gonna be hanging on to that for is the the later (0:07:52) Al: Awesome. Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:07:55) Kevin: So it’s been a hot mince I’ve been on I think and the biggest life update for people who haven’t heard I have kittens now (0:08:05) Micah: kittens? No. When you okay, when you say kittens, obviously plural, how many are we talking here? (0:08:06) Kevin: Have I not showing you the mic oh I will text you a picture right now (0:08:11) Kevin: Yes (0:08:15) Kevin: We’re talking too so We started off with one (0:08:20) Kevin: So we’re looking for a new place to move into and at one of the places we’ve kittens they were giving (0:08:25) Kevin: away and so we took one home and then after some discussions we said you know what I bet this kitten could use a companion so we went back and got one got one of her brothers and so we now went from no kittens to two kittens pretty much out of the blue their names are teddy and daisy (0:08:52) Kevin: They are about seven, eight weeks. (0:08:55) Kevin: They are about eight weeks old. (0:08:57) Kevin: This is my first time owning cats. I’ve had a dog before, but never cats. (0:09:02) Kevin: It’s been enjoyable there. (0:09:04) Kevin: Fun, energetic, Daisy in particular is a little gremlin who loves to run around. (0:09:08) Kevin: Teddy, the brother, he’s a lot more chill. (0:09:11) Kevin: He is, yeah, I’m loving them so far. I love animals, right? (0:09:15) Kevin: And they were so little when we got them. (0:09:17) Kevin: They were only like four weeks old when we got them. (0:09:20) Kevin: So they were really little. They were like tripled in size. (0:09:23) Kevin: I took them to the vet for the first time. (0:09:25) Kevin: Yesterday, and aren’t they precious I I will have to find of us an alpix so he can post it with the show (0:09:26) Micah: Oh my god. (0:09:33) Micah: Who who’s the which one is the white and gray one? (0:09:37) Kevin: That’s Daisy (0:09:38) Micah: That’s Daisy. (0:09:39) Kevin: Mm-hmm and then (0:09:40) Micah: Daisy looks very much like my brother’s cat, zero, who is 18 years old. (0:09:43) Kevin: Oh really, huh Wow Wow, that’s strong (0:09:48) Micah: But the like identical like pattern and facial structure and. (0:09:51) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, Teddy’s really cute. He’s got a tuxedo (0:09:55) Kevin: pattern. He’s got gray fur, but like little white paws and, um, and Daisy’s black or black gray spots. Yeah, they’re adorable. Um, so yeah, they can be a handful at times as I’m sure cat owners know they can get all over the place. (0:10:10) Kevin: But, um, but I’ve been enjoying. Um, so, uh, yeah, that’s the big thing really. But, uh, (0:10:16) Kevin: other than that, probably the biggest things I’ve been playing lately. Um, I’ve really been getting through Tears of the Kingdom finally. I’ve pretty much (0:10:25) Kevin: at the finish line I’ve done all the big quests I’m just kind of going around hitting up all the shrines and filling out the map and so on and so forth but I could go take on Ganon anytime. That game is phenomenal it’s great I mean I don’t have to go in-depth about it I’m sure everyone knows how good it is right right but yeah very good game I yeah not much I probably could add and then the The other one is a… (0:10:42) Al: Speaking of games that have secrets. (0:10:55) Kevin: Street Fighter 6 (0:10:58) Kevin: So I am a fighting game fan. I am bad at them, but I love them (0:11:03) Micah: Hey, me too. (0:11:04) Kevin: I picked it up. Yeah, yeah, you got right. I’ve only played two weeks (0:11:07) Micah: On both fronts. (0:11:10) Kevin: Have you picked up Street Fighter 6? (0:11:11) Micah: I have not. (0:11:12) Kevin: Micah, okay (0:11:12) Micah: I have some friends that I have watched play. (0:11:14) Kevin: Okay (0:11:18) Micah: And I have some friends that are extremely good at Street Fighter. (0:11:23) Kevin: Yeah, yeah good. Oh man, hats off to them. (0:11:24) Micah: So I’ve seen some, you know, stuff that I’ve seen gameplay that I don’t fully understand because it’s too… (0:11:33) Micah: high level for my small brain to comprehend, but… (0:11:40) Kevin: That’s fine, I’m playing it and it happens to me. (0:11:45) Kevin: So yeah, the two big things, I mean Street Fighter, right? (0:11:47) Kevin: It’s the iconic series, (0:11:48) Kevin: so I’m sure people know what it’s all about, it’s fighting. (0:11:51) Kevin: But the two big things that it brings, (0:11:54) Kevin: the first is called modern controls. (0:11:57) Kevin: They have a new control scheme (0:12:02) Kevin: that simplifies basically playing the game. (0:12:05) Kevin: So traditionally you’d have to do a motion on your control stick and a button and all sorts of crazy combinations to get moves out. (0:12:15) Kevin: But they simplified it, (0:12:16) Kevin: where you can get moves out with just the press of a button. (0:12:20) Kevin: It’s very beginner friendly. (0:12:23) Kevin: Because of the convenience of that, (0:12:25) Kevin: they balanced it by reducing the strength of the moves and things like that. (0:12:32) Kevin: I think it’s great. (0:12:33) Kevin: I don’t play it much myself, I like the classic stuff, (0:12:36) Kevin: but it’s fun to see people use it and be able to play, (0:12:41) Kevin: get in without having to worry about not being able to do the moves. (0:12:44) Kevin: I say that as someone who is not always able to do the moves. (0:12:50) Kevin: And the second big thing that they have is called world tour mode. (0:12:53) Kevin: Have you guys heard of this at all? (0:12:56) Kevin: Yeah, oh man. (0:12:58) Kevin: So World Tour Mode is their single player campaign. (0:13:02) Kevin: The real kicker is that it’s a create a character mode. (0:13:08) Kevin: So you create your own fighter, but they’re sliders to your physical attributes. (0:13:16) Kevin: So you can be as tall, skinny, short, whatever you want. (0:13:19) Kevin: You can make monstrosity looking characters and it will affect your gameplay. (0:13:24) Kevin: If you have long arms, you will be able to punch farther or whatever. (0:13:29) Kevin: It’s pretty fun making your own character. (0:13:32) Kevin: I love it. You can hang out with the cast, which are filled with fun dumb moments. (0:13:46) Kevin: You can text all the street fighters. It’s really funny. (0:13:48) Micah: I am a big fan of a really ridiculous character. (0:13:48) Kevin: It’s so good. It’s probably the most ridiculous one. Just today I saw somebody look like a spaghetti with arms. (0:14:02) Kevin: It’s so good. There’s an online mode where you can bring your creative characters. You can have your freak matches. It’s great. (0:14:10) Kevin: Everything about that game is fantastic. The presentation, the music, the online play works great. I rarely have any bad connections for matches. (0:14:22) Kevin: I’m the character I picked up. Her name is Manon. She is a French supermodel. (0:14:32) Kevin: She is also a judo wrestler. She throws all of that in her move. She does struts, she does pirouettes, and she’ll grow you around. (0:14:40) Kevin: She’s very fun to play. That’s what I’ve been up to. (0:14:44) Kevin: Alright, Senor Al, what about you? (0:14:48) Al: Not a huge amount. It’s been a weird week, but I’ve been playing a bit of a Highland song. So for Micah, probably, who isn’t aware, it’s a platforming game based in the Scottish Highlands, and part of it is rhythm based. And it’s absolutely gorgeous. It has great music. The story is really good, and I don’t play games with the sound on, but I… (0:15:18) Al: can’t play this game with the sound off. Like, it’s just even outside of the rhythm, but it’s just so good. Yeah. Like, a Highland song. And it’s fantastic. So, okay, yeah, (0:15:30) Kevin: Okay, what are the rhythm portions like, because I know it was the Scottish game, but I don’t know what it’s like. (0:15:36) Al: okay. That’s a fair question. That’s a fair question. So, to preamble to that, the idea is that you’ve got all these mountains, and you’re climbing over them, and you’re trying (0:15:48) Al: to get to specific points. And there are places in the game where, as you are walking, (0:15:54) Al: it will tell you to press B to run. And then as you’re running across a terrain, there are things in the way, and the rhythm bit is you have to press it in time to the music to keep going and jump over the rhythm. (0:16:08) Kevin: Okay, that’s fascinating. Huh. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rhythm platformer in the (0:16:19) Micah: This is beautiful. (0:16:20) Al: Right. Right. And the best thing is, so when you’re standing on, when you’re standing on a hill in the game and you can see all of the hills around you, all of those hills are hills you can go to in the game. (0:16:32) Kevin: Oh wow, that’s nice. (0:16:34) Micah: Wow. Yeah, this is a really pretty game. I’ve never heard of this. (0:16:38) Al: Yeah, it’s really I’m loving it. It’s great. Yeah, yeah, I came out a couple weeks ago. (0:16:39) Micah: Is it new? (0:16:44) Al: But it’s fantastic. And all the Scottish accents are legitimate. So no terrible Shrek voices. (0:16:50) Kevin: But, I mean, come on, don’t you want at least one Shrek in there? (0:16:52) Al: No, no, no. Definitely not. Never, never, never. Shrek is fine in Shrek. Not outside. (0:16:56) Micah: No, that was a very immediate no. (0:17:00) Micah: No, no, no, no, no, no. (0:17:00) Kevin: Ah, fair enough. (0:17:06) Al: We have enough fake Scottish. (0:17:08) Al: Voices in the world, there are very few things where we actually get proper Scottish voices. (0:17:13) Al: So it’s nice to actually hear some. (0:17:14) Kevin: Fair enough. (0:17:15) Kevin: Is David Tennant in it? (0:17:17) Al: I don’t think so, no. (0:17:18) Kevin: the- I’m sorry. That’s a missed (0:17:21) Al: His voice, there was something, I can’t remember what it was I was watching the other day and I was like, “Oh, that’s David Tennant.” Like I always, anytime I hear him doing his normal voice, (0:17:29) Al: it’s like such a distinctive voice for me that I’m like, “Oh.” It’s like, (0:17:33) Al: Every so often, somebody learns that David Tennant is Scrooge McDuck. (0:17:38) Al: And they’re like, “What? How’s David Tennant?” I’m like, “How could you not tell? His voice is just so distinctly his voice.” (0:17:39) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:40) Kevin: - That’s… (0:17:47) Kevin: I, I didn’t know, I mean, I, I watched, I’m a big fan of the reboot of DuckTales, but I didn’t know it was David Tennant till a little bit in. (0:17:48) Al: Maybe that’s a Scottish thing, I don’t know. (0:17:57) Kevin: Um, and I didn’t realize he was Scottish. (0:17:59) Kevin: That’s, it’s really funny. (0:18:00) Al: Yeah, he’s not putting on a voice. He’s slightly emphasizing it, but that’s basically just his voice. (0:18:04) Kevin: Yeah, sure. (0:18:06) Al: Yeah, don’t do that again, Kevin. (0:18:06) Kevin: I like how he says “Gad-age” in the first episode. (0:18:09) Kevin: I always remember that one. (0:18:13) Kevin: That’s how he says it. (0:18:17) Al: So yeah, I’ve mostly been playing that and also been playing Pokemon because of the Flubbebe outbreaks, as I said, in the show notes. (0:18:27) Micah: Oh, that’s right (0:18:30) Al: baby baby. (0:18:31) Micah: Forgot that was going on. I forget it’s uh, well baby now and then (0:18:39) Kevin: Milsory in the (0:18:42) Al: So it’s current Flababy in Poldea. It is… no, it is not. It is Litwick in Kitakami. (0:18:48) Kevin: 3 in Kitikami. (0:18:52) Micah: Mmm. Yeah, because milsry is not in the game. (0:18:53) Al: Milcery isn’t in the game yet. Milcery will be in the Blueberry Academy when it comes out. So that’s why it’s not Milcery yet. It’s because it’s in the new region in the DLC. I think it’s just called the Blueberry Academy. Yeah. (0:19:01) Kevin: I haven’t gotten the DLC yet. (0:19:05) Micah: So just the new region, do we know what the new region is called? (0:19:07) Micah: Other than just, it’s the Blueberry Academy, is it just Blueberry Academy? (0:19:10) Kevin: That’s it. (0:19:11) Kevin: Yeah, it’s like an- it’s a- yeah, it’s part of- it’s Unovan territory, I guess, I know, (0:19:16) Kevin: but it’s like an artificial island sort of thing. (0:19:20) Al: Yeah, they call it like the. (0:19:21) Kevin: Terrarium. (0:19:24) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:26) Micah: means I almost fear honest I mean it’s the like vibe that I got from it when I yeah we’ll see it’s always we’ll see (0:19:26) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:28) Al: Yeah, it is pretty much, hopefully less evil, but we’ll see. (0:19:29) Kevin: now. (0:19:31) Kevin: Yeah, [LAUGH] I might get the DLC finally, the trit look. (0:19:40) Al: Oh, they are calling it the ceranium. (0:19:42) Al: They are calling it. (0:19:44) Micah: I was just recently finishing up my Pokedex, my like living decks in Violet in preparation for the DLC, but (0:19:57) Micah: there’s a lot of just figuring out how to who I knew who had the other Sinnoh starters, because you only get the like one egg. (0:20:11) Micah: And it’s dependent on, I guess, dependent on what starter you picked for. (0:20:15) Micah: For scarlet or violet. (0:20:16) Al: I think it was, or maybe it was random, I can’t- (0:20:20) Micah: I feel like it was, yeah, it seemed like from trying to track down where I would find a Piplup, it was, it was through like deduction power, the power of deduction (0:20:34) Micah: through who had what starter from the, from Paldea. (0:20:38) Micah: So I don’t know if that’s actually the case or not, but that’s, that’s how I managed to figure out who had. (0:20:44) Al: Yeah, I could probably find out if I cared enough. (0:20:52) Al: I mean, I still like, I don’t, I’m still enjoying it and I’m really looking forward to the new DLC, but Kevin, you don’t need to play it. (0:21:00) Al: You can just not. (0:21:02) Micah: It’s true. It’s true. I will say that I felt. (0:21:02) Kevin: Look, I’m– (0:21:09) Micah: I think we talked about this the last time I was on, actually. (0:21:10) Al: We did. (0:21:12) Al: We had a whole greenhouse episode about it. (0:21:14) Micah: I finally finished the DLC, the first DLC, because that was the right. (0:21:18) Al: Oh, yes. (0:21:19) Al: Yes. (0:21:19) Al: Cause you hadn’t finished it when we did the greenhouse. (0:21:21) Micah: And that is like rare for me, because I I go (0:21:25) Micah: pretty hard into Pokemon stuff when it launches for the first time. (0:21:28) Micah: So to not do that is kind of a new. (0:21:32) Micah: New and weird thing for me, but I finally finished it and I did enjoy it, but I did feel that it was a very, I don’t know, I just, I’ve, I’m still feeling like I’ve kind of become disillusioned with modern Pokemon to some degree, but. (0:21:49) Kevin: I mean and okay like to not I’m you know, I (0:21:54) Kevin: Notoriously nag on the game, but to pull the veil down a little to be you the more genuine here. I (0:22:00) Kevin: Do think the trailer for the upcoming one part looks good. I’m a bit excited for what I see (0:22:07) Kevin: the only part that (0:22:08) Al: Careful. (0:22:10) Kevin: Yeah, I know the only part that really irritates me is the flying thing how it’s locked behind the DLC because (0:22:18) Al: Yeah, I agree (0:22:19) Kevin: It’s just with knowing how the development cycle works and the timing of everything. It feels very intentional. They put bad flying (0:22:28) Al: Well, here’s the thing, I don’t care if it’s like, “Oh, we couldn’t get it done in time for release,” right? (0:22:34) Al: You still don’t have to lock it behind the DLC. (0:22:34) Kevin: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Okay. But. (0:22:36) Al: They have updates. (0:22:37) Al: Every game has updates when there’s DLCs. (0:22:40) Al: So you absolutely don’t need to. (0:22:41) Al: It’s absolutely a very specific choice to lock that quality of life feature behind a purchase and that is bad and we should absolutely call that out. (0:22:49) Al: It’s not going to stop me buying the game though. (0:22:52) Micah: Yeah, I’m kind of in the same position. (0:22:56) Micah: I think there’s a lot of stuff that could just generally as far as the development cycle goes could have been changed for the better. (0:23:10) Micah: I had mentioned a little bit the like one time I’ve been on Twitter in the last like month after they talked about the they released. (0:23:22) Micah: It’s the new trailer this last week, I think. (0:23:24) Al: Yeah. (0:23:25) Micah: And they showed off the the like Pokemon control mode. (0:23:30) Micah: I forgot what they call it, but you can control the sync mode where you can control the Pokemon and run around as the Pokemon. (0:23:32) Al: Oh, yes, yeah, synchronize. Yeah. (0:23:32) Kevin: The sync mode thing. (0:23:40) Micah: And it seemingly has not much of a like use case other than you can battle Pokemon, but you just run around as a Pokemon. (0:23:50) Micah: And that to me, it. (0:23:52) Micah: Immediately, like I’d think back to when the games first came out and how much like disgruntledness there was with certain elements of the design that the games design, like how you couldn’t go into any of the houses. (0:24:09) Micah: But then they, you know, when they clipped out of bounds, then they found that there were like half designed internal locations like you could have gone into. (0:24:20) Micah: but it was very clear that they ran. (0:24:22) Micah: Out of time in the development cycle, just couldn’t, uh, so there are things like that where like I, it makes me feel like sync mode. (0:24:29) Micah: It was something that they just ran out of time on. (0:24:32) Al: So that’s possible, but I also think it could be along the lines of, like, let’s go Pikachu and Eevee to Legends, where we saw a clear direction they were moving. (0:24:43) Al: And it’s not necessarily, like, I don’t think anyone would say that the catching in Let’s Go was the way it was because they didn’t have enough time to do what they ended up doing in Legends, but it was more like a kind of moving in that kind of direction. (0:24:57) Al: And we see this with a lot of things in Pokémon where they do that, where it’s like, it’s It’s just a, it’s a. (0:25:02) Al: You’re prerequisite and the kind of like the game, it’s not like here’s a game, let’s build a game. Here’s another game. Let’s build another game, right? Like they’re constantly doing all these different things in these different games and having these different ideas. And that’s true. (0:25:04) Kevin: Yeah, baby steps. (0:25:16) Kevin: These I don’t think these are mutually exclusive either like (0:25:16) Micah: I think that I think that that I agree with that that makes sense. (0:25:22) Micah: But I do feel like there is a level of like (0:25:26) Micah: half baked development process for some of these things. (0:25:30) Micah: And I I am willing to, you know, give (0:25:30) Kevin: Oh, oh, they’re deaf at least. (0:25:34) Micah: well, for like like you said, for let’s go. (0:25:37) Micah: I think the the catch feature for let’s go was meant to more mimic Pokemon. (0:25:41) Micah: Go like it was very clearly there, like (0:25:46) Micah: the motion point between the main games and Pokemon go so that. (0:25:51) Micah: You know, catching style was intended to feel like I mean, it does feel like especially the motion control portion feels like Pokemon go. (0:25:52) Al: I mean, kind of, kind of, but I also like, with then we got only a few years later, legends, (0:26:05) Al: like it feels like it was what they kind of wanted to move towards and they were trying different things and this is what they ended up with. I don’t think it was just like, oh, (0:26:15) Al: let’s just make Pokemon go in a main series game. Like, I think it was, you know, they (0:26:22) Al: had a game which was legends where you were actually running around and literally just throwing Pokeballs at Pokemon, right? But, look, it’s not, yeah, I mean, it does show a flaw in how they developed their games and that these were almost certainly developed in parallel and therefore you can’t know what’s going to be popular and what’s going to end up working really well before you do it the next one. Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. (0:26:30) Kevin: And then they said, “Let’s go backwards at the next game.” (0:26:52) Al: I want that again. But anyway, we don’t need to keep talking about Pokemon. Let’s move on, shall we? This happens every couple of months we end up on another Scarlet and Violet delve. It did, it did. It did, but, you know, I need to save some of my Pokemon talk for a different podcast. Anyway, it’s, wow. Wow. (0:27:03) Kevin: But the trailer just came out. It was… it was gonna- (0:27:16) Kevin: We’re doing a worst games of the year pocket. (0:27:22) Al: Anyway, that’s what we’ve been up to. And I’m glad that we got a good half an hour out of that because there is no news because this is recorded out of time. Because I don’t know about you guys, but I did not want to record this on, you know, Hogman A. So we’re recording it a few weeks early. (0:27:46) Kevin: Where’s your dedication out? (0:27:49) Micah: What do you have things to do geez [laughs] (0:27:52) Al: So yes, yes, I do. So we are here to discuss our favourite games of the year and hopefully come to a conclusion on what the podcast’s game of the year is. So begins the part of the podcast where I read a bunch of words. So I am going to go down all of the games that were released this year. And at what point does this become ridiculous? I don’t know is this the most (0:28:22) Al: games we’ve had released in a year since we started the podcast? (0:28:24) Al: Yes, it absolutely is. (0:28:24) Kevin: Probably. (0:28:26) Al: Absolutely insane. (0:28:27) Al: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine. (0:28:29) Kevin: More than three, I’ll tell you that. (0:28:31) Kevin: I didn’t know Homestead Arcana- (0:28:32) Al: So 30, 30, 30 games, (0:28:36) Al: 31, 30, 35 games, and then one, two, three, four, five, six, seven released (0:28:42) Al: into Early Access. So was that 42, 42 games in this list? (0:28:47) Al: So this is the first list is the list of (0:28:50) Al: that were released. (0:28:52) Al: Not into early access and they previously weren’t in early access. (0:28:56) Al: This is brand new games this year. (0:28:58) Al: Brand new games not early access. (0:29:00) Al: I don’t know why I overcomplicated this, but here this is what we’re doing. (0:29:04) Al: So this is Above Snakes, Before the Green Moon, Everdream Valley, Fae Farm, Farming Simulator 23, Flutter Away, Garden Buddies, Garden Inn, Harvest Moon, The Winds of Anthos, Homestead Arcana, Enchanted, Loddle Knot, (0:29:20) Al: Maneko’s Night Market. (0:29:22) Al: And this is me just double-taking. (0:29:48) Micah: Now if you thought that was it. (0:29:52) Kevin: I’m gonna feel bad when one of the real games of the year is in here and the ones that I didn’t play. (0:29:52) Al: Well, this is part of the problem. (0:30:00) Al: So next we have five games that were released in 1.0 this year and early access a previous year. (0:30:07) Al: OK, so they were already out, but they came to their 1.0. (0:30:11) Al: They left early access this year. (0:30:13) Al: That’s a better way of describing it. (0:30:14) Al: These games left early access this year. (0:30:16) Al: And we have Icone Island, Mindrop, Sunhaven, Coral– (0:30:22) Al: Island, and Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:30:24) Al: And then we have the list of seven games that came into early access this year. (0:30:28) Al: And that is Cornucopia, Fabledom, Moonlight in Garland, One Lonely Outpost, (0:30:35) Al: Research Story, Song of the Prairie, and Snacko. (0:30:39) Al: Hey, Micah, is this the first time you’re learning that Snacko’s in early access? (0:30:42) Al: Or did you know that already? (0:30:43) Micah: Uh, no, yesterday when I opened Notion was the first time I learned this neck wasn’t really (0:30:50) Al: Well, surprise! (0:30:52) Al: in early access now. (0:30:55) Micah: I have I’ve played the betas or the alphas, sorry. (0:31:01) Micah: And I have decided that I don’t want to do much more with the game until it (0:31:10) Micah: they get a full release because I love it. (0:31:13) Micah: love it so far and I don’t want to overdo it. (0:31:16) Kevin: Yep, don’t burn yourself out on it. I know somebody who was a big fan of Hades, but they only played in the Early Access and they burned themselves out. (0:31:23) Micah: I don’t think I could burn myself out on it really as much as it’s just that like, I don’t want to miss out like because I backed it. And I want to, I don’t know, experience the full experience I’ve experienced so much of it at this point. (0:31:38) Al: I think that’s fair. I got to the same point with Coral Island last year where I was like, (0:31:43) Al: “And now I’m going to put it down into 1.0.” But I mean, that was like 40 hours or 50 hours or something like that. It was more than I play a lot of games, you know? And I didn’t feel like playing that much ruined the experience for me when I came to the final version, because I’ve put in more than… I’m up to 100 hours now in that game. So I think it depends on the game. (0:31:55) Micah: Mm-hmm. (0:32:07) Al: Uhh. (0:32:07) Al: Ah. (0:32:08) Al: But that is a fair point. (0:32:11) Al: I have not decided what I’m going to do with Snacko. (0:32:14) Al: I’ve not decided yet. (0:32:16) Kevin: Why did nobody tell me homestead arcana came out? I would have played it, I missed that. (0:32:21) Al: Kevin! (0:32:23) Kevin: I’ve been here. (0:32:24) Micah: Have I got news for you. (0:32:29) Al: Kevin, you literally, we literally have a shared list of all of these games and when they coming out, you can look at it all the time and I’m constantly updating it just to let you know that is a thing. (0:32:31) Kevin: Well, hey. (0:32:42) Kevin: You assume I read these even when we’re recording. (0:32:43) Al: Nope, I don’t assume that at all, but I will complain about it. (0:32:49) Al: So any thoughts before we get into listing our favorite games, any thoughts on the list as a whole? (0:32:56) Al: Here we go. (0:32:56) Kevin: Umm… (0:32:57) Kevin: Ugh… (0:32:58) Micah: It’s a good list (0:32:59) Kevin: It’s a very good list. It’s too good. (0:33:01) Micah: It’s a strong list that I (0:33:06) Micah: when I opened this this document and looked at it I was a (0:33:11) Micah: Surprised that so many games had come out this year and be a little bit (0:33:17) Micah: Concerned about how few of these games I actually played (0:33:20) Kevin: Exactly! (0:33:22) Kevin: Alright, time to strike out all the ones none of us have played. (0:33:26) Al: Yeah, no, that’s fair. And I think it is interesting, right? Because like, I’ve now been tracking these games. I think I have all of the farming games that have released ever now in my list. (0:33:36) Al: And so that’s 47 this year. Last year, there were 24. In 2021, there were 15. In 2020, (0:33:46) Al: there were nine. In 2019, there were 13. And then we’ve got like, between 2016 and 2018, (0:33:54) Al: were 16. (0:33:56) Al: So that’s like a three-year span, and they were the same number as they were in 2021. (0:34:03) Al: And then 2010 to 2015, there were 12 of them, half of which were just farming simulator, (0:34:10) Kevin: Yeah. (0:34:10) Al: and the other half were just harvest moon. (0:34:13) Al: That’s not true. (0:34:16) Al: There were three harvest moons, two rune factories in one story of seasons, and an animal crossing. (0:34:21) Al: So the rest were farming simulator. (0:34:23) Al: And then the five years before that, there were 17. (0:34:26) Al: It is wild that Stardew Valley is eight years old in February, just saying. (0:34:36) Kevin: Yup, thanks Stardew Valley. (0:34:43) Kevin: You changed the whole landscape of the genre of gaming, thanks. (0:34:50) Kevin: I thought it was older, to be honest. (0:34:53) Al: No, 2016. (0:34:56) Al: Right. (0:34:56) Al: Well, I mean, shall we get right into it then? (0:34:59) Al: Let’s go for one each around, what should we do around the table? (0:35:04) Al: One each. (0:35:04) Kevin: All right. (0:35:05) Al: And we can tell, say what the game is and tell me why you’ve got it in the list. (0:35:12) Al: And we’re not doing, no, it’s a terrible game. (0:35:15) Al: So Micah, would you like to go with your first one? (0:35:18) Micah: Uhhh… Can I go with my wildcard first? (0:35:20) Al: You can, you can go in whatever order you want. (0:35:22) Al: If you want to leave your strongest for last, go for it. (0:35:25) Al: if you want to start with your strong. (0:35:26) Al: Go for it if you want to do your crazy one first, do what you want. (0:35:29) Micah: I’m going to get my wild card out of the way because I know that it’s not going to go very far so. (0:35:31) Al: Let’s go for it. (0:35:34) Al: Never assume these things, you have no idea what’s going to happen. (0:35:37) Micah: OK, that’s true. You’re right. My my. (0:35:37) Kevin: I, I, yep, I. (0:35:39) Al: Oh wait, before we get into that, let me just quickly. (0:35:45) Al: I want to go through what we have had as our games of the year in the past. (0:35:51) Al: Last year, Ooblets won. (0:35:54) Al: 2022, Ooblets won. (0:35:57) Al: But it did. (0:35:58) Al: 2021 was Spiritfarer. (0:36:01) Al: 2020 was Summer in Mara. (0:36:04) Al: And 2019 was the Raymon Story of Seasons. (0:36:07) Kevin: Wildflower was robbed. (0:36:09) Micah: What year was Wildflowers? (0:36:11) Kevin: I don’t I (0:36:11) Micah: Oh. I mean. (0:36:11) Al: Yeah, Wildflowers last year. (0:36:13) Micah: Ooblitz though. (0:36:16) Al: None of the three of us had played it. (0:36:18) Al: And Kevin, you hadn’t played it by that point either. (0:36:20) Al: So… (0:36:21) Micah: Also- Also Ooblitz is- (0:36:21) Kevin: That is correct. (0:36:26) Al: Ooblets was the only… (0:36:27) Al: Well, you hadn’t played Ooblets, but me and Bev had. (0:36:30) Micah: Yes. (0:36:31) Al: And you had a wild card last year as well. (0:36:33) Al: So what’s your wild card this year? (0:36:35) Micah: What was my wildcard last year? (0:36:37) Al: Shinshan Summer Vacation. (0:36:38) Micah: Oh, I mean, that is actually I still stand by that. (0:36:44) Al: Look, I’m not saying it’s a bat, I’m just saying. (0:36:46) Al: Like it was a little bit out of life field, (0:36:47) Al: neither of us had heard of that game before you brought it up. (0:36:50) Micah: Well, let me tell you about my wildcard for this year, which I guarantee you have heard of. (0:36:55) Micah: There is absolutely no scenario where you have not heard of this game. (0:37:00) Micah: Are you ready? (0:37:02) Kevin: Is it the princess game? (0:37:03) Micah: It is Fortnite. (0:37:07) Al: OK, why? (0:37:08) Al: OK, so you– wait, no, no, right. (0:37:10) Al: OK, so, Micah, you’re telling me that over the past three days, (0:37:12) Micah: Uh-huh. Yeah. (0:37:16) Micah: Yes. (0:37:17) Al: you have played this game enough to consider it one of your favourite games of the year? (0:37:20) Micah: I would say that there’s a reason that it’s a wild card. (0:37:27) Micah: And I would say that it is probably the reason that it’s in my list is not because I would (0:37:33) Micah: personally consider it one of my favorite games of the year. (0:37:36) Micah: But I think that it is a very important bridge (0:37:42) Micah: for the wider Fortnite audience, which is massive, into the world of farming sims. (0:37:50) Al: Well, we will have talked about it in a previous episode, so. (0:37:50) Kevin: And hey, if we let them win… (0:37:52) Micah: For anybody that is confused by this and doesn’t understand why Fortnite is part of this conversation, (0:37:59) Micah: they just released… (0:38:02) Micah: Yes, the Fortnite, the LEGO Fortnite mode has been released as of three days ago. So… (0:38:10) Al: And for some reason, it’s basically Minecraft, but with more farming. It’s wild! (0:38:10) Kevin: Minecraft for tonight. (0:38:12) Micah: Yes, and also as Legos, and it’s in Fortnite. (0:38:15) Kevin: Yeah. (0:38:18) Micah: I don’t really know if there’s aside from skins and characters, there’s not. (0:38:21) Kevin: Wait, is it actually Lego brand? Lego? What? Holy moly. (0:38:24) Al: It is, it is. (0:38:25) Micah: Yes, it’s actually Lego brand. (0:38:28) Micah: And it’s you are just building Lego, (0:38:30) Micah: like a Lego like homestead basically of a village in the wild. (0:38:36) Kevin: That’s… (0:38:37) Micah: It’s essentially a survival, it’s more of a survival game than it is like (0:38:42) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:38:42) Micah: a farming sim. (0:38:43) Micah: So it’s more like you gotta eat and you gotta, there is, (0:38:44) Kevin: It’s all Minecraft. (0:38:44) Al: Yeah, but there does seem to be a decent amount of farming in it. (0:38:49) Micah: there is a decent amount of farming in it. (0:38:51) Micah: And I’ll say that I have played quite a bit of it because the team that I work with has been very into it. (0:38:59) Micah: So, and prior to that coming out, we had all been playing Ark, (0:39:06) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:39:06) Micah: the dinosaur survival game. (0:39:09) Micah: So we had a server that we were playing that on. (0:39:11) Micah: So when a new survive. (0:39:12) Micah: Survival type game released and it’s Fortnite and it’s free and it’s Lego then we were like, okay, well, let’s play this instead so we have been playing quite a bit of it and it’s I was a little bit shocked at how good of an experience it is because it’s it it’s just odd because it’s got other than the skins and the characters there’s and I guess the the game that it that you access it from there’s nothing related to Fortnite really it’s super obvious. (0:39:19) Al: suck (0:39:44) Al: No. Well, I think your character is in the beginning based on the main, the base Fortnite playable character, right? Yeah. It’s not Fortnite. It’s not Fortnite at all. So a couple of things I found interesting about this. So first of all, it made me realize that Fortnite is not just Fortnite anymore, right? Like Fortnite was just a battle royale, but that is just one of eight different game modes, right? Absolutely wild to me. (0:39:52) Micah: Yes. Yeah. So aside from the characters, I mean, it’s it’s really there’s not a lot of no, it’s not a (0:40:06) Kevin: Oh, it hasn’t been for a while. (0:40:08) Micah: Yeah. Right. (0:40:14) Al: That’s the point now. And second of all, not only is this, it’s like, it’s not just Fortnite, but Lego. It’s Fortnite, but Lego, if they made it Minecraft, but with more farming. (0:40:30) Al: And I am just, it’s just so fascinating. So I haven’t played a huge amount of it. I’ve downloaded it and I’ve started playing it and I’ve kind of done the first couple of things. And it’s not really grabbing me. I don’t think I’m going to spend a huge amount of time on it, but I think (0:40:44) Al: so. Minecraft, when we covered Minecraft on the podcast, it was, it was a bit of a stretch, (0:40:48) Al: right? There is farming, but it’s very limited. It’s like, it was four crops or something. There might be more now. Minecraft has done a lot since then, but it felt like a bit of a stretch. (0:40:58) Micah: Yeah, there is a significant differences between, you know, yeah, there’s quite a bit to do in Fortnite now, or in Minecraft, I mean. (0:41:05) Al: Yeah, but this feels like a legit farming game, but it’s not cottagecore. It’s survival farming game. (0:41:06) Kevin: Minecraft has not stopped growing, they do annual updates. (0:41:16) Micah: Mm hmm. (0:41:19) Micah: Yeah, so I guess it kind of it also is a little bit of like how you play it. (0:41:24) Micah: So like, granted, there is a survival aspect that needs to be taken care of. (0:41:29) Micah: But depending on who you’re playing with or the the you know, (0:41:32) Micah: there is a like peaceful mode that you can do similar to what Minecraft had, (0:41:36) Al: That’s a good point. (0:41:36) Micah: where it’s not really you don’t have to play the survival mode. (0:41:40) Micah: You can play it just for the sake of like, you know, (0:41:43) Micah: the kind of like sandbox aspect of it. (0:41:46) Micah: Where you’re building stuff and doing whatever you want. (0:41:46) Kevin: farming and whatnot. (0:41:48) Micah: Yeah. (0:41:49) Micah: But, you know, like with my group, I’m not as big into the survival aspects of it. (0:41:54) Micah: Like I don’t particularly care about, you know, min maxing food and water and so on and so forth. (0:42:01) Micah: I’m more into the like building and designing and, you know, farming and that stuff. (0:42:07) Micah: So I kind of take on that role while everybody else takes on the survival portion of it. (0:42:14) Micah: So there are different ways. (0:42:16) Micah: Is to be able to play it that make it a little bit more of like a comfortable experience. (0:42:22) Micah: I mean, I literally built a cottage, so I don’t know, you know. (0:42:25) Al: Yeah, that’s, I think that’s totally fair. I guess my point of what I was saying was, (0:42:26) Kevin: Nice. Well, there you go. (0:42:31) Al: was like, I think this is much more legitimate as a farming game than Minecraft was when, (0:42:38) Al: when we covered it. So I think it’s, it’s totally fair to count this as a farming game. (0:42:39) Micah: Right. (0:42:40) Kevin: Yeah. (0:42:42) Al: So maybe I should add it into the list as Lego Fortnite. Um, but here’s a question for you. Does this make Fortnite the most downloaded farming game ever? (0:42:44) Kevin: Oh, there you go. (0:42:54) Micah: That’s why I I’ve included it because I think it is important touchstone in the history of farming games where it (0:42:54) Kevin: Absolutely. (0:43:05) Micah: There’s a possibility I can see a world in which people who play this (0:43:10) Micah: Enjoy it enjoy the like farming aspects of it want more of that and branch out into other farming type games (0:43:17) Micah: because there is such a broad audience for fortnight that (0:43:21) Micah: You know and it’s there’s such a broad (0:43:24) Micah: Audience for Lego - that there is a good (0:43:30) Micah: Possibility that it creates more farming game fans, which I’m all for (0:43:35) Al: I’ve added it into the list and also I need to add one more that I forgot, which was Hello Kitty Island Adventure. (0:43:42) Kevin: Oh, yeah, well (0:43:42) Micah: I did see that that was missing from the list and I didn’t know if that was intentional or not so it just… (0:43:46) Al: Oh, you should have brought it up. Come on. (0:43:46) Kevin: Glaring a bit omission this entire show is a sham (0:43:51) Al: Look, look, we’re now up to 49 games, right? I’m sorry, I can’t keep track of the ball. (0:43:56) Kevin: It’s quick Somebody find one more quick Um one well, you know though what we have to do is we have to let fortnite win (0:44:03) Kevin: So we can get that sponsorship money. Welcome to the harvest season of fortnite podcast (0:44:06) Micah: - It’s true. (0:44:09) Micah: Of Fortnite, but I never, I just did not ever foresee (0:44:15) Micah: there being a scenario where in the farming game of the year discussion or just in general on a harvest season episode that I would be bringing up Fortnite in a like semi-serious way. (0:44:26) Kevin: Yeah, one thing I will I haven’t played Fortnite ever, but from what I understand, every time they bring in these new distinct modes or gameplay elements, it’s always very polished and good quality. (0:44:44) Kevin: Like they brought in Spider-Man swinging and Attack on Titan, so I’m not surprised that this is high quality and that’s a lot of money being thrown at this Lego money, Fortnite money. (0:44:57) Al: Alright, well, you’re probably right, it’s probably not going to win, but it’s there, (0:45:02) Al: it’s in the list, not many games get into the list. So, there we go. No, into the list of the two, there’s only nine. It’s only nine. Alright, Kevin, what’s your first? (0:45:06) Kevin: Nope just 48 others. Oh (0:45:10) Kevin: Our list, okay (0:45:15) Kevin: My first one I’m going to go with (0:45:19) Kevin: Manekos night market a shocker to everyone the game I’ve been pining for for how many years now. Oh (0:45:27) Kevin: gosh (0:45:28) Al: Like five, like maybe six. (0:45:31) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know something like (0:45:32) Al: I think it was six years ago it was first. (0:45:33) Kevin: well (0:45:36) Kevin: Yeah, I think it’s I’ve the fact that I waited that long and still was happy with what came out I think is a testament to how good the game is (0:45:48) Kevin: Obviously, I haven’t played all these other games and it probably not even the ones on your guys list but I (0:45:54) Kevin: Out of the ones I see here. I probably I would argue it has the most personality and charm (0:46:02) Kevin: the art, the sort of craft book art. (0:46:06) Kevin: It has gone very, very enjoyable. (0:46:10) Kevin: I haven’t beaten it myself, right? (0:46:12) Kevin: It loses some points because it came out with a handful of bugs and rough edges. (0:46:18) Kevin: But it’s still a game that makes me smile every time. (0:46:24) Kevin: So yeah, I gotta give a shout out to Maneko because I think it actually did deliver. (0:46:30) Kevin: Um, obviously, you know, it’s not the scale of tears that– (0:46:36) Kevin: Kingdom waiting six years for that or whatever, but for the get what it set out to be from all the trailers and whatnot, I think it delivered. It’s very cute, which I appreciate now. I have cats myself. Yeah. (0:46:48) Al: Yeah, totally fair, and it is still the wallpaper on my phone and has been for like seven months, (0:46:57) Kevin: Yeah, there you go. Also actually one thing I (0:47:01) Kevin: Yeah, that’s the good stuff (0:47:04) Kevin: one thing I do want to add (0:47:06) Kevin: Go on as we talked about in the episode. We talked about it. Um, the (0:47:11) Kevin: titular night market part of it is very fun (0:47:15) Kevin: Auctioning going into little bid war with customers to sell who and make profits and whatnot (0:47:20) Kevin: I don’t think a lot of these other games are focused on that like making money (0:47:26) Kevin: So that was (0:47:27) Kevin: a refreshing angle approaching the whole cottagecore thing. (0:47:32) Kevin: And again, just very fun points for that. (0:47:36) Al: Awesome. (0:47:36) Micah: Uh, I, are, are we just for the sake of the structure? (0:47:43) Micah: Are we just going through our picks and then discussing them or are we? (0:47:48) Al: If you have more to talk about that game just now, then feel free. (0:47:53) Al: We don’t need to discuss whether it’s the winner yet or not. (0:47:55) Micah: Sure, uh, oh (0:47:55) Al: And don’t say whether it’s on your list yet or not. (0:47:56) Kevin: Yeah. (0:47:58) Al: We’ll get to that. (0:47:59) Micah: Okay, I (0:48:00) Kevin: Alright. (0:48:03) Kevin: Michael, what’s next on your list? (0:48:03) Al: Right, we don’t want to look, Micah, we have a collapsed list for the suspense. (0:48:05) Micah: Didn’t didn’t say one way or another (0:48:05) Kevin: I’m kidding, I’m kidding. Ow, ow. (0:48:11) Al: We’re keeping the suspense, even if it might really be obvious now. (0:48:12) Micah: Okay, you’re right you’re right you’re right (0:48:14) Kevin: Alright. (0:48:16) Micah: It’s not though cuz I’m changing it at the moment I’m typing no, I’m just kidding [laughing] (0:48:18) Al: All right. I’ll go with my wild card. No, no, come on. I’m going with my wild card, (0:48:24) Kevin: Alright, ow. (0:48:26) Kevin

In this episode of “Coping”, Kathy and Kevin discuss the symbolism of lights during the holiday season, highlighting familial traditions around decorative lights and the spiritual meaning of light in the Bible. Light represents hope during dark times, and as people who are called to shine their light into the world, we can think about what type of light we are, and the need to plug into spiritual sources to refill our light when it dims. The conversation covers how illness, trauma, grief, exhaustion, and lack of boundaries can dim our light. Practices like reading, walking, and unplugging can refill us. Reflect this week on your current light using a 1-10 scale - how bright are you shining? Identify factors that may be dimming your light right now. Commit to one new practice this season to plug into spiritual sources and refill your light. Reach out to friends or helpers if your light feels dim and you need support. Intentionally shine your light this holiday season to bring hope to those in darkness. Kathy: Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Today's episode. We have a special advent holiday. Kevin: That's right today We're gonna talk a little bit about the theme of lights and what that means for this holiday season. Kathy: Okay, let's get started. Kevin: So it's that time of year; we start driving around the neighborhood at night and we see lights and people's lawns on their trees outside. We can see through their window, the Christmas tree is decorated. Even in our own home our Christmas tree is up and the lights come on automatically on a timer. It's such a beautiful time of year with all these Christmas lights. What was your tradition growing up? How did you guys decorate your house inside and out? Kathy: Oh, that's a really good question. So we grew up in South Florida so it was not cold and so there wasn't like snow and that whole part of the winter celebrations. Kevin: Right you almost have to decorate a little bit more just to bring in the Christmas season because you don't have the natural changing of the weather there. Kathy: Sure, so a lot of people in South Florida do lots of lights because we don't have those extra winter effects. So Yeah, we would put out the lights and then one of our favorite family traditions was to drive around and look at all the lights. When we were young our parents to drive us in the car around and look at all of the neighborhood or other little neighborhood pockets where people put on big light displays. Kevin: Yeah, so my brother and I, when we were older, took the initiative to decorate the house ourselves and so we would pull out those dusty boxes filled with old Christmas lights. And this was back in the day where you would test one light at a time when the strand was not working and we would try to find that broken light or the one that had you know blown and we would then use a little plastic pack with like three extra ones and then refill it in. Kathy: The fuses. Kevin: So we would be hours and hours just trying to get the lights to work and then we had the bright idea of, "man we've done all this work and it looks beautiful this year. Let's leave it up the whole year and see if we can just you know not have to go through--" Kathy: Oh you were one of those families. Kevin: We tried until just a few weeks later the lawn guys came and cut into the bushes and destroyed all the lights. I think that was the last year that we ever did Christmas lights. Yeah, well this episode it's our holiday episode so we're going to talk a little bit about lights this season and what the symbolism of lights are for us as we celebrate this holiday season. Kathy: So tell us a little bit about why lights are so important spiritually and the symbolism of that. Kevin: Yeah, that's such a good question. So I think from Judeo-Christian perspective, light is such an important theme in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Some of the very first of verses in Genesis talk about God's command, "let there be light." And then we see this certainly extended into the New Testament where light starts to become a symbol of people who are set apart in the world, but also an example of our call to shine our light. I'm thinking about John 1 1:7, where it says, "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another." And I think it's just such an important reminder that when there's so much darkness in the world, so much darkness around us and our personal lives, that we be a light, a light for other people when they're in their darkness. And when we shine a light, it's a symbol of hope, especially in challenging times in the world. Kathy: Yeah, it seems like every Christmas, things are getting darker and darker, not just outside, but in the forces that are working against the light. And we come to Advent and to this Christmas wondering, "is the light actually going to overcome the darkness? And what are ways we can be spreading more light since it's just so needed?" Kevin: Right. One of the teachings that we've done a few times with our community is to describe the kind of light that we are when we think about all the different kinds of light sources in the world. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about how you would describe yourself as a light? What kind of light do you see yourself as in the world? Kathy: Yeah, this is such an introspective, but very powerful and fun activity to think about all the different light sources around us from the lamps to the light bulbs to the matches to the campfires, to the lightning bugs. Yeah, there's just so many, and we take it for granted, I think that's something else you could say. Our power was out recently for 12 hours, and it was very, it was a wake up call to how much we rely on the light. Kevin: So much so we bought a backup battery just to make sure that we had a source to keep our light shining when we need it. Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. So when I think about the light source that relates to me, I think about lighthouses. I love the lighthouses, we visited some of them, but the idea that your light can emit far away to guide ships in, I think is one of the calls for me, and being a stable source of light people can come back to resonates with me. How about you? Kevin: Yeah, I see you definitely emit that kind of light in your work as a life and vocation coach, certainly within our family, just a very stable presence of light. That's definitely how I envision you and your light. I think for me, probably opposite to you, my light changes over time and in different seasons and depending on what's going on. And so there's times where I feel like I'm a bonfire, where my light is ablaze. Other times it feels really, really dim, almost like a nightlight. And so I think the best example of my source of light is more like a dimmer switch. There's times where I find myself shining really bright and that kind of bright light is needed if I'm teaching or speaking or leading some type of group and shining up bright light is important. And then having the ability to dim way down if I'm entering into a patient room in the hospital, sitting with somebody who's just gotten a new diagnosis and being present to them in their pain and their story. Kevin: And so I've developed over time this ability to toggle my light switch up and down, depending on the scenario, depending on the encounter that I'm having with somebody. So I think the best representative of my kind of light is perhaps like a dimmer switch. Kathy: That's really good. And you have to obviously be aware then about how your light source is emitting and when you need to turn it down. I grew up without dimmer switches. I didn't even know what that was, but it's such a powerful regulatory mechanism that we have now and for you to use that as a light. For you, I think that's really interesting, but it's very appropriate for the work you do. So you mentioned that sometimes your light is dim. I think that brings up a very good topic about what makes our lights dim. You're talking about the self-regulation of dimming, but a lot of times our lights are hidden, turned down, covered completely. What do you find often dims the light in others? Kevin: Yeah, that's such a great question. I think, as you're saying, the most important thing to do is to first be aware that your light is dim. Kathy: Awareness. Kevin: Yeah, awareness, yeah, exactly. I know in the work that I do, some of the obstacles or some of the ways that our lights are impacted is illness, trauma, pain, lack of support, those types of things can certainly impact somebody's level of light. I think for me personally the ways that my light dims the most is when I feel like I'm perhaps expending more energy or expending sending out more light into the world that I'm you know filling myself up with so I'm burning out quite literally emotionally, spiritually burning out and my light source is getting dim because it's you know the energy levels are pretty low. What about for you? What are some of the things that you feel like are dimming your light that that lighthouse that you are? Kathy: I think it's exactly the same right as helpers, we don't we're getting tired of turning our lights. We have been turning on our lights probably on maximum, full force since COVID because there's been so many needs for helpers, loss of jobs and illness and the level of crisis we've talked about through our season is very great in the world, so helpers are very tired. For me, it's exhaustion, a lack of rest and just feeling like I can't turn my light on anymore. I'm just too tired to. I can keep plugging back into sources, but it's just like not enough to light. The amount of power it takes, I think, for helpers and leaders, it's a lot. Kevin: Yeah, I'm even thinking about my source of light a dimmer switch often a dimmer switch is coupled with an outlet and so not only am I emitting light but I'm also an outlet for others to plug into and that can be exhausting I have to have double, triple, quadruple the amount of energy being poured in to me so that I can not only shine my light, but be a source of light for others. You think about a lighthouse -- I'm sure there's several outlets and other sources of energy for folks to plug into let alone helping them, guiding them to shore after a journey at sea, if you will. Kathy: Yeah, and I would say also that for those in our community, you mentioned illness, trauma, grief as dimming. I would also say related to that, you know, the lack of boundaries, what we're talking about, and the inability to pause, to rest, to reflect. And then not taking enough time to plug into the sources that fill us up in proportion to how much, like you said, the energy is going out. Kevin: Right. Tell me a little bit more about how you plug into sources of energy to keep your light bright. What does that look like for you and what advice do you have for other people that are assessing that their light is pretty dim at this time of year? Kathy: So one of the practices that we talk about and then I practice personally, I know you do too, is that we engage in what we call ING activities that are filling up and making us literally light up. For me, it's reading. I'm so proud to say I finished two books this week that I had started months ago, cooking, walking every day, napping. For some people, it's serving. For some people, it's cleaning. That's something that gets them filled up. There's endless possibilities. Kevin: Yeah, this teaching that we talk about a lot is making sure that your practices include that ING. What's the participle, what kind of word is that as an ING? I always forget. Kathy: That's a gerund. Kevin: A gerund. That's right. Kathy: Of course. Kevin: The English teacher in you is coming out, yeah. So basically ensuring that the practice that we have is something that we do and gives us not just something to strive for, but something to actually do practically. And so I have these ongoing practices, journaling, praying, fellowshiping, playing. I like to play video games as a complete breakaway, watching movies, that type of thing. But I think certainly this time of year, what I need more than just my ongoing practices of self-care and rest are practices, like my annual practices that disrupt the routines that I have, and so making sure that I'm taking time to reflect on the whole year. You and I have talked before on this podcast about our year in review workshop, but also when we talk about our favorite things from this past year, we have a journal that we do with that. Kevin: I also try to take some time away from work to completely unplug and to free up some mental space. So ongoing practices are super important, all those gerund words, the ING words. And then try to think at this time of year, ways to disrupt my normal patterns and routines so that I can do a real good assessment about where I'm at, how I'm doing, what I'm needing as I look back to start to envision what might be upcoming in this next year. Kathy: Yeah, so I think this is all very helpful, especially at this time of the year as we talk about lights and how we can dispel the darkness. The number one theme I think that we've emphasized today is to be sure that you're plugging into a greater source of light. Kevin: That's right. We have all these practices that we can do, activities that we can do, but the reality is that we may be a source of light, but we're not the main source. We have to plug into a source of energy bigger than ourselves so that that energy source can be filling us up as we're shining our light and being an outlet for other people's light to have energy as well. Kathy: And so to recap, step one, take a moment to think about the awareness of your light. How is it shining right now on a scale of one to ten? How bright is it? Step two, what is dimming your light? What is causing you to be not shining as brightly as the world needs you to be shining right now? And step three, plug into the source of a greater light source than yourself. We cannot get light from ourselves. Kevin: What are those sources of light that we can plug into when you think about a bigger source of light? What does that look like? Kathy: I think the bigger sources of life for most people are spiritual practices. For some others, it's faith, their deep faith, and all of the practices related to hearing from God and getting truth and light into their hearts and minds instead of believing lies and darkness. For others, it may be community and hearing how they're valued and seen from a group of people. So I would just challenge you out there. If you don't have any of those, please reach out to us at Be Well Resources. We want you to be shining your light brightly. the season and throughout the year. Kevin: And so with that, what I would like to do to close our time together today is to play one of the earliest episodes from season one of "Coping". It's a reflection on light and the type of light that we can shine amidst the darkness this holiday season. And so with that, whatever it is that you may be coping with, we want to extend this holiday season blessings to you. Holiday Lights Reflection Kevin: During the holidays, Christmas lights decorate our homes inside and out. We wrap our Christmas trees with lights and hang lights from the roof. These lights switch on at night so that they shine brightly and beautifully in the darkness. The prophet Isaiah spoke about light saying, People walking in darkness have seen a great light. On those living in the land of deep darkness. A light has dawned. Our small strung together Christmas lights not only display the beauty of Christmas, but also, as Isaiah teaches us, help dispel the darkness. As we celebrate with lights this season, let us intentionally shine our lights to illuminate the world around us. How has God's light dawned in your life? Where is he calling you to shine your light today? Let's pray. God, you are the light of the world. We hear your call to be light in the world. Help us to shine brightly this season, and give us the power to bring light where it is needed most. We pray these things in your name. Amen.

The first episode of the 4th season of "Coping" discusses practices for celebrating Thanksgiving and carrying gratitude through the entire year. Kathy and Kevin love Thanksgiving for the food, family gatherings, and chance to reflect on blessings because reflection can bring about new direction and understanding. Practices like daily celebration and reflection can build gratitude. Learn how you can turn your Thanksgiving into Thanks-living and join us on December 7th, 2023 for our "Review Your Year" workshop. Kevin: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to a new season of coping. Kathy: Yes, today we're pausing our series on rest to have a special Thanksgiving podcast. Kevin: Yes, we hope that you all are enjoying your Thanksgiving week. If that's when you're listening to this episode. We wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving. Kathy: What's your favorite part of Thanksgiving? Kevin: Good question. Okay, so this is going to surprise you a little bit. My favorite part about Thanksgiving is how much food is made and that it gets spread out over many more meals after the holiday itself. Which -- you know me really well --it's strange because I don't actually like leftovers other times of the year. It's really only Thanksgiving that I enjoy having the same food multiple days after the big feast. Kathy: And I'm the opposite. I love leftovers and I love spreading out all my meals. So I'm excited to talk about Thanksgiving, leftovers, pumpkin pie, I'm getting hungry already. Kevin: Yes. Kathy: Let's get started. Kevin: So this week we celebrate Thanksgiving and I know it's one of your favorite holidays. Why do you love Thanksgiving so much? Tell me about it. Kathy: Yes, I think I love Thanksgiving. Of course, it's always about the food on the foodie. But I think the deeper celebrations of gathering around tables, it is a holiday celebrated by most everyone. I like the inclusive nature of the holiday. And I love the focus on gratitude, celebration, Thanksgiving, and the gifts of this year. Kevin: I know also that your birthday, especially this year, falls really close to Thanksgiving. And so in our household, it's a really fun time of year where we get to do a lot of celebrations for you and then lead us right into Thanksgiving holiday meal and time with family. Kathy: And so let's revisit this concept of the leftovers that we discussed earlier. Talk to me a bit about that. What is this Thanksgiving leftover theory that you have? Kevin: You know, when I think about Thanksgiving and gathering with friends and family, and food being the centerpiece of that, the thing that gathers us together. And I love that idea that we have one big elaborate feast with friends and family for fellowship, but what we take with us is not just the food and a carryout, to-go bag, but we take with us those memories that shared time together, and then it rolls itself into the rest of the weekend, into the rest of the end of the year. And it's just a, I think, a great opportunity for us to remember that giving thanks doesn't have to be just one time a year, that we should have a practice of giving thanks. Kathy: Yeah, I really love this. One of my favorite authors Ann Voskamp says that, "our goal is to turn our thanksgiving into thanks-living." And we have done one of our previous podcasts on this, and we had a guest, Anleisha, who told us her story about that. But I think today's podcast, we wanna give some practices that will help turn this Thanksgiving into Thanks-living. Kathy: The first is celebration. How do you use celebration as a spiritual practice? Kevin: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Celebration is a big one. So let's start with the definition. Oxford Dictionary tells us that celebration is the action of marking one's pleasure at important events or occasions by engaging in enjoyable and typically social activities. And so we all do this in really natural ways, right? We have our birthdays and anniversaries and, you know, the holidays, it's on our minds, it's on our calendars. We gather and we celebrate these things. I think perhaps this year, more than most, the practice of celebrating in the midst of so much chaos in the world, so much upheaval in our personal lives, celebration may not feel like a natural thing. It may not be our natural inclination this year. And so what I want to call to mind is another type of celebration, another type of Thanksgiving in the midst of so much chaos. And I'm reminded of a quote from a dear friend of mine, Father Mark, who always likes to say, "it's always important to balance the bitter with the sweet." And what he means by that is to remember the sweetness of life when life feels especially bitter. And the best way to do that is with a piece of cake, a piece of pie, a little bit of ice cream or some candy, something just to savor and to enjoy in the midst of very unenjoyable times in our lives. And so I think maybe this Thanksgiving is where we take time to balance all the bitter in the world with a little bit of sweetness. And that's the food that's on the table, the friends that sit around the table with us and the fellowship that we get to share. Kathy: Yeah, that's such a wonderful practice, an idea. Speaking from my recent celebration experience of this past week, which was my birthday, it was a great pause in the midst of a very chaotic and difficult month, I would say, to focus on joy and gratitude. And it was uplifting. It didn't seem natural. It didn't seem like, "oh, let's stop and celebrate." But we did anyway. And we were all better as a result. I love Adele Calhoun in her book, Spiritual Disciplines Handbook. She speaks of celebration as one of those disciplines. And she says, “when we're able to set our hearts on this joy, it reminds us that we can choose how we respond to any particular moment.” When we can set our hearts on joy, that will remind us that we can choose how we can respond to any particular moment. Kevin: That's right. If we can choose to celebrate in the midst of chaos, that also teaches us how to respond in times of crisis. So we have this practice of celebration, and we know the importance of celebrating daily and weekly and monthly as we just talked about. What is another practice that we can do to extend thanksgiving to every day of the year? Kathy: Sure. The next one we want to discuss is the practice of reflection. So we just talked about celebration. And that is a pause. Reflection is also a pause, but it's the intentional practice of pausing to remember. We are doing the looking back in order to figure out how to move forward. And this could take the form of written, where we're doing like journaling, that sort of thing, or it can be oral where people are, even like if you think about reflection happens in memorial services, where we're doing a reflection back -- Kevin: Telling stories. Kathy: Telling stories. Correct. You and I do a year-end review with our family, where we actually look back. Kevin: Yeah. So we've developed this booklet, it's called Year in Review, that we do every year and as the kids have gotten older we've included them in this and it's kind of a fun ritual that we do in our family. But basically there's these questions that we look back on the year and talk about and write the answers down and some of the questions that come to mind are like your biggest accomplishment this last year, best new purchase -- Kathy: Favorite movie, best vacation -- Kevin: Best new hotel, best new restaurant, things like that. Kathy: Hardest challenge. Kevin: Yeah, there's a lot of really good questions to reflect on and to remember and I'm always surprised at the end of the year, the amount of things that we did. The year goes by so fast and I think I have developed a practice of forgetting in order to cope with all of the challenges in life. But when we choose to reflect and then remember the good things in the midst of all the hard things that have happened, it's always such a meaningful practice. And I always feel like the year feels a little bit more meaningful because we take that time together as a family. Kathy: Yeah, I love what you said about the forgetting part, right? So much is happening. We need the pause. And that reminds me of Emily Freeman's quote, where she says, "the problem isn't that we aren't learning. The problem is that we forget." So I think what happens is we're just going 24-7. And we're consuming a lot and we're never pausing to digest it and then also figure out what we have learned. Kevin: Right. Kathy: So if we don't take these pauses for reflection, we're not making the most of the opportunities that come our way when we can't reflect back on that. They just are just sort of like passing us by. So let's just say that we go through the whole we go through a year, years, not journaling or making note of or highlighting things. Then we turn around and years have passed and we're like, what did we even do? And what are we doing it for? Kevin: I know for me, especially in my line of work, I go from one crisis to the next. And the next thing you know, you look up and it's like the end of the year or like the middle of the year. And I'm like, wait, how did that happen? And what I hear you saying is that reflection helps get the control back of the time that feels like it slips away so quickly. But more than that, it's an opportunity to learn and to grow from all of our experiences so that we're living life, not just trying to cope and survive and deal with all the problems that come our way. We can actually take some of the control back, some of the slow the time down. just a little bit through taking that time to reflect. Kathy: It lifts us out of reflection, will lift us out of survival into significance. Kevin: Yeah, that's really good. So how do we do that though? Like life is chaotic, there are hard things. What does that look like to take time to reflect? Kathy: Yeah, so we can do a daily reflection practice, the practice of the examin, some of you may be familiar with, and that is a daily practice of looking back on your day. You're asking the questions, basically what happened in my day today? And where was I present? Where was I not? Oh, what happened at that moment? It's such a good reflection practice to do that daily. And then you can also go on to do this, of course, weekly and monthly. And it is just about stopping, pausing, recognizing the gifts of these days. Kevin: Yeah, so in chaplaincy we have this philosophy "Action Reflection Action", meaning with everything that you do, especially when you're first learning like clinical pastoral education, that everything that you do, you take time to reflect, to learn from and to improve the practice. But it's certainly a philosophy that extends beyond a residency into a full-time chaplain role, that you're taking time to reflect, to make meaning, and to improve your practices going forward. And I think for me, reflection is simply looking in the mirror. And instead of just seeing yourself in that reflection, you get to see your soul. And so reflection can be something that we do looking backwards, because a mirror only reflects backwards, it doesn't reflect forwards. But when we look backwards, that's the way that we're able to make sense of where we've come from, so we have a better idea of where we want to go. Kathy: Excellent. So, to sum it all up, we have some celebration and reflection practices that we're all going to begin to utilize. We hope that this has given you some small steps toward having thanks -living this year, instead of just Thanksgiving. And speaking of reflection, we have our annual Review Your Year workshop coming up on December 7th. Everyone is invited to this. It is a time of celebration and reflection, where we get to look back on this year, all that it brought to us. We talk about our word that we had, and we're also setting an intention. So if you are interested in that, please sign up on our website at BeWellResourcesLA.com, and we'd love to have you. To close our time today, Kevin:, would you lead us in a Thanksgiving meditation? Kevin: Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. Meditation: We're going to start with me asking just a few questions that I'd like you to reflect on. If you want to write your answers down, that'd be great, but if not, you can just call them to mind as well. So the first question is, what are two attributes of God you appreciate most today? The next question is, what's one thing you're celebrating today? The next question, what's one thing you're reflecting on today? And finally, name three things you're most grateful for today. So this meditation is a fill in the blank blessing. As I read this blessing, reflect on these things that you're grateful for. And when I pause, fill in your own words to complete the blessing. Let's pray. God, thank you for being _________. Today, I will choose to celebrate __________. Because I see this as a gift from you. Today, I will take time to reflect on __________. Because I'd like to remember __________. I thank you for all the blessings in my life, but today, I'm most grateful for these three. The first is _________. The second is _________. And finally _________. And so I conclude by simply saying, "thank you."

Kev and Kelly do a second harvest of Graveyard Keeper Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:17: What Have We Been Up To 00:06:11: News 00:34:56: Graveyard Keeper 01:14:29: Outro Links Coral Island 1.0 Moonlight in Garland Early Access Sun Haven 1.3 Update Fabledom Fairytales & Community Update Moonstone Island Eerie Items DLC Lonesome Village Physical Edition Garden Story Translation Update Fantastic Haven Graveyard Keeper Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Kevin: this is kelly ween this is kelly ween kelly ween kelly ween and in this show uh we talk about games that are filled with cottage gore yeah hi everyone welcome to the harvest season um with me today is kelly i’m kevin she’s actually gonna be here for well spoilers but then she’s gonna be on next week too she were on last week I bring it up because last year you were on for Halloween we did Cult of the Land. (0:00:47) Kelly: Hey. (0:00:57) Kelly: Oh, I forgot about that. (0:01:02) Kevin: And so, yeah, so, well, that’s exactly right. (0:01:03) Kelly: Is this just like my thing? (0:01:07) Kevin: Um, yeah, you’re Kelly our pumpkin queen. (0:01:10) Kevin: So here we are. (0:01:11) Kevin: Um, she’s all about this stuff. (0:01:14) Kevin: And so we are here today to talk about graveyard keeper, another, um, cottage gore game, um, technically this is a second harvest episode. (0:01:25) Kevin: Uh, Raschelle covered it way back. (0:01:28) Kevin: Like the first Halloween episode. (0:01:32) Kevin: And so I knew about it for years, but I didn’t get a chance to play it until recently. (0:01:37) Kevin: Um, and Kelly has played it significantly. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:01:40) Kelly: I only got out of it though last year. I was very new to it, so… (0:01:44) Kevin: Well, still more than I have. (0:01:49) Kevin: I’ve only played, uh, just a handful, relatively speaking. (0:01:51) Kevin: Um, but yeah, that’s, uh, we will get to that soon enough. (0:01:58) Kevin: Um, but before that, as always. (0:02:02) Kevin: Show notes and links and the transcripts are all available on the website for people to see and look at and on. (0:02:09) Kevin: Ooh, and whatnot. (0:02:11) Kevin: Um, and, uh, before the graveyard keeper will do news as always. (0:02:17) Kevin: And more importantly, what have you been up to Kelly? (0:02:19) Kevin: What have you been playing, watching, doing, yada, yada. (0:02:21) Kelly: Um, playing? I’ve really been slacking. I’ve been playing solitaire in Pokemon Go, which is not… It is, but I just… I get stuck playing it, and like, it’s fun, but I’m also like, I could be playing something better. (0:02:37) Kevin: Yeah, I mean it’s like comfort food sometimes it just it’s simple and I get it Exactly sometimes you just need a mindless game Okay, okay madman okay, I have not watched it. I’m familiar with it. That’s the one with That’s the one like 50s (0:02:37) Kelly: Um… [laughs] (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, thoughtless. Um… (0:02:50) Kelly: But I just… (0:02:51) Kelly: I rewatched Mad Men, so that I think is more exciting. (0:03:05) Kelly: yeah like 60s advertising, yeah. (0:03:05) Kevin: add agency right (0:03:07) Kevin: 60s okay all right how how mm-hmm how long is it like the whole thing oh wow that’s longer than expected well that’s cool yeah sure (0:03:07) Kelly: uh I was a big fan when it came out. (0:03:12) Kelly: uh it’s like seven seasons I think? yeah seven seasons. (0:03:18) Kelly: yeah when I first ran I jumped ship like I think after season five. (0:03:25) Kelly: uh I mean it’s not the worst last two seasons but they’re not as good. (0:03:32) Kelly: Good. (0:03:34) Kevin: Um, let’s see, uh, well, I’ve last week we covered paleo pines actually kept up with it a good bit after There was a patch that dropped It’s been a big dinosaur for a week for me. I watched Jurassic Park this week again - (0:03:35) Kelly: What about you? What have you been up to? (0:03:52) Kevin: Boy, that movie’s real good good other than that Yesterday I cried that Super Mario wonder it just came out yesterday (0:04:04) Kevin: the newest one for this switch and It’s a good one Um, I’ll plug the rainbow road radio the other show I do with our mutual friend Alex We did our first look at it on that show. We just recorded and that’ll be dropping soon It’s fantastic it’s There’s I’m only a little bit in like on the second world but like every (0:04:23) Kelly: What do you think of it? (0:04:34) Kevin: level feels like it is introducing something new and different and I mean classic Mario is good you know 2d it’s your standard 2d Mario and whatnot so the gameplay is good and it’s just filled with all sorts of fun surprises and delights I’m going to spoil people on probably the best part that I’ve experienced so far there’s this level it’s like the second or third level you can do. (0:05:04) Kevin: There’s a bunch of piranha plants popping out of the pipes and you run and jump past them and whatnot. (0:05:09) Kevin: And then there’s the Wonder Flower which changes the level in different ways or whatnot. (0:05:15) Kevin: So when you touch the Wonder Flower, it starts this musical production and all the piranha plants just start singing. (0:05:23) Kevin: And it’s incredible, you entice everyone to at least look it up. (0:05:29) Kelly: I actually, I saw it on TikTok this morning and I was like, hmm, okay. (0:05:30) Kevin: It’s just so much fun. (0:05:34) Kevin: It’s so, because it just, right? (0:05:37) Kelly: Very much unexpected. (0:05:38) Kelly: I thought it was like somebody made it at first, like, you know, somebody edited it. (0:05:41) Kevin: Yep, it’s so out of the blue. (0:05:42) Kelly: But no, it was real. (0:05:45) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s good. (0:05:48) Kevin: It’s really funny and yeah, the game just brings smiles to me every level with all sorts of unexpected twists and turns like that. (0:05:56) Kevin: So yeah, Mario Wonder, two thumbs up for me for sure. (0:05:59) Kevin: Like I said, people can go to Rainbow World Radio to hear more in-depth thoughts. (0:06:04) Kevin: But, yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been up to. (0:06:08) Kevin: And now, with that, let’s hop on over to the news. (0:06:15) Kevin: We have, as always, a handful of, mostly game updates. (0:06:19) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot of game updates for some reason right now. (0:06:24) Kevin: So we’re going to start off talking about Coral Island. (0:06:30) Kevin: Okay, the one, okay, this is a big one. (0:06:34) Kevin: For people who may not remember, Coral Island is your standard Stardew-esque, well, I say standard. (0:06:40) Kevin: It’s got all your fixings, your farming, and it’s on an island, hence the name, right? (0:06:46) Kevin: So it has the tropical aesthetic and whatnot. (0:06:51) Kevin: But the big news is the 1.0 version is launching on November 14th, which is exciting. (0:06:58) Kevin: They have a trailer, and it looks expansive. (0:07:05) Kevin: There’s a lot going on. You have your farm, you can go underwater, you can meet mermaids, you can do your romancing, (0:07:12) Kevin: you can do, I think there’s even a race in there somewhere. All that good stuff. (0:07:18) Kevin: It looks very polished and like a 1.0 game. You can also… (0:07:22) Kelly: Yeah, I was going to say, it definitely looks like there’s, it looks a lot different than like the first, you know, clips I saw of it. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it’s definitely a game now, for a better way of putting it. (0:07:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:07:37) Kevin: And you can also dress up as a panda or dinosaur, so you know, there’s a lot going on there. You also get your little animal crossing, you can redecorate your house wherever you want. (0:07:49) Kevin: Oh, you can even have a baby in this, that’s wild. Yeah, that is dropping on November 14th, (0:07:58) Kevin: just a couple of weeks and it will be dropping on Steam, Xbox Series X/S, and PS5 they’re hoping for a 2024 release for a Switch version. Do you think you’ll try Coral Island or look in its general (0:08:12) Kelly: I think I might. I think it definitely looks really cute. I think it depends on if I’m playing anything, you know, when it comes out. I’m trying so hard not to, like, backlog myself. (0:08:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s the hard part right too many games Yeah, no, that’s that’s a good idea I definitely have bought back So I respect that I think you can romance a mermaid so, you know, I’m not that going free I wonder how that’s gonna work. How are they gonna move up the land or vice versa? (0:08:43) Kevin: It’s a two-story floor but the bottom floor is underwater [laugh] (0:08:44) Kelly: just uh living in a two separate homes kind of situation there you go (0:08:52) Kevin: I’m down for that, um, yeah, right now it’s only 25 bucks, oh that’s not bad for this, that’s, that looks like a lot of content for 25 bucks, so, um, get excited. (0:09:06) Kevin: Um, oh, oh yeah, okay, sure, yep, that makes sense, that’s fair. (0:09:07) Kelly: Oh, it does say it’s going to release, I think, at $30, though. (0:09:11) Kelly: There’s a note about the price adjustment. (0:09:14) Kelly: But the diving looks really cool. (0:09:16) Kelly: I played a lot of Dave the Diver over the summer, (0:09:19) Kelly: so I feel like I’m still looking for games where I can go exploring like that. (0:09:19) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. (0:09:23) Kevin: Yeah, it does look good for like the animation stuff. (0:09:29) Kevin: I’m also a big fan of underwater type games and it looks very expansive down there. (0:09:35) Kevin: So yeah, there’s a post on Steam page with all the updates and everything. You guys can check it out. (0:09:44) Kevin: If you do have early access, it looks like there will be a save reset. (0:09:53) Kevin: So there is that. But, either way, November 14th, I look forward to it. I might actually check it out now. It looks pretty… (0:10:00) Kevin: So, next up we have Moonlight and Garland. (0:10:06) Kevin: I don’t know if this is a game announced, but it’s… (0:10:09) Kevin: Yeah, I guess it is, because they’re announcing their early access October 24th, which will probably already be out by the time people are listening to this. (0:10:18) Kevin: This is… here, let me read their, uh… (0:10:22) Kevin: The elevator pitch, where is it? (0:10:24) Kevin: A cozy open-ended life sim about finding your feet in the big city, decorate your apartment, make new friends, grow too many houseplants, and love your city life. (0:10:33) Kevin: Um, so it… yeah, it’s… it’s city-based, right? So you’re in an apartment, you’re not running a whole farm, but you can grow plants, you can have pets, um, make relationships and whatnot. (0:10:46) Kevin: The art style is… (0:10:48) Kelly: That’s the most realistic farming sim. (0:10:52) Kevin: » [LAUGH] (0:10:54) Kevin: » No, you’re right. (0:10:59) Kevin: » Yeah, yeah, Kelly can. (0:11:00) Kevin: Well, no, you’re in the house now, you’re not in an apartment anymore. (0:11:03) Kelly: No, but definitely, you know, went through that also, like, how do I keep my plans alive in my apartment when there’s no sun? (0:11:04) Kevin: But yeah, you know the feeling. (0:11:12) Kevin: Man, gosh, you’re super right. (0:11:16) Kevin: Boy, there’s a person showing an apartment with a lot of bunnies in their apartment, that seems difficult. (0:11:23) Kevin: You’re gonna have that many bunnies in an apartment. (0:11:26) Kevin: The art style is, it’s 2D pixelated, but it’s not Stardew-esque. (0:11:31) Kevin: It’s a little more cutesy than that, and I don’t know how to best describe it. (0:11:35) Kevin: And all the NPCs are kind of bobbing their head at the same time to some unknown beat, it is cute looking. (0:11:43) Kevin: And it’s only the early access, so I’m sure it’ll grow considerably more. (0:11:51) Kevin: That is, you know. (0:11:52) Kevin: October 23rd? 24th? I’m seeing two different days. (0:11:58) Kelly: I definitely want to follow up on it because just looking at the coming soon photo, it’s like why is there an iguana on the sidewalk? (0:12:06) Kevin: Hahaha! (0:12:06) Kelly: Can I have an iguana? (0:12:07) Kevin: Wait, you havin’ a guana? (0:12:08) Kelly: And then there’s also the bear man. (0:12:10) Kevin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me see, which one are you talkin’ about? (0:12:10) Kelly: I’m on the steam page, the early access release. (0:12:14) Kevin: What? (0:12:15) Kevin: Okay, okay, let me see… (0:12:17) Kelly: So in the coming soon photo that says steam early access, October 24th, whatever, wishlist now. (0:12:27) Kevin: Okay, okay. Oh, I’m looking at the wrong page. I would explain it wouldn’t it? Yup. There it is. Okay Yeah, I was looking the wrong page. There is a bear man. Why is there a bear man? (0:12:28) Kelly: There’s a bear man in the iguana, like do I get a pet iguana, do I get pet pigeons? (0:12:37) Kevin: Okay, I Okay, I want to mine a department full of pet iguanas that that I can do they’re pretty low-key There are pigeons. So, you know, definitely, you know, they’re hitting Oh, are they gonna have the the trash bags out on the sidewalk? (0:12:55) Kevin: Are they gonna go all in on the city? (0:12:57) Kevin: I don’t know if garland is a city name. It’s a city in texas. I know that much. (0:13:11) Kelly: Yeah. (laughs) (0:13:28) Kevin: But yeah, coming soon, early access. (0:13:31) Kevin: Next up, the clip side of early access, we got DLC patches, whatever you want to call it, for Sunhaven. (0:13:39) Kevin: This is the magical-esque farm where you do magic, there’s monsters, dragons, etc. (0:13:51) Kevin: It is patch 1.3, which includes new buildings. (0:13:58) Kevin: There are several that don’t look human, one is an angel, just straight up an angel. (0:14:04) Kevin: One guy is blue, he’s a moon attendant, whatever that means. (0:14:11) Kevin: You have to, they will be unlockable at some point, but that’s fascinating, dating non-humans like that. (0:14:20) Kevin: Oh, they will have a couple of other romancibles coming later this year. (0:14:28) Kevin: They will also have new farm structures and buildings. (0:14:32) Kevin: Greenhouses, silos, chicken coops, butterfly gardens, I like that. You don’t see that in farming games. (0:14:38) Kelly: That’s very unique, yeah. (0:14:40) Kevin: That’s cute, I love a butterfly garden. (0:14:44) Kevin: Monocyphoners, glorite siphoners, I don’t know what they are, workshops, and ticket counterfeiters. (0:14:54) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but you’re counterfeiting. (0:14:57) Kevin: They’re up to crimes. I like that. (0:14:59) Kevin: I want to know why you can do crimes. (0:15:01) Kevin: Tickets for what? (0:15:03) Kevin: I don’t think they’re concert tickets. (0:15:05) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:15:07) Kevin: But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff. (0:15:10) Kelly: A lot of stuff. There’s like a ghost shed kit? I want a ghost shed. (0:15:11) Kevin: What does that mean? (0:15:18) Kevin: Do you keep ghosts in there? (0:15:19) Kelly: You grow them in there, maybe? (0:15:21) Kevin: I don’t… (0:15:23) Kevin: Oh wait, there are variations. (0:15:25) Kevin: variations because there’s pumpkin and mushroom. (0:15:27) Kevin: It looks like a ghost, oh I see it. (0:15:29) Kevin: Yeah, it has the eyes, the windows look like eyes and the glow, okay. (0:15:29) Kelly: Oh! (0:15:31) Kelly: That makes so much more sense because I was like oh mushroom shed. That’s just a shed where you grow mushrooms, you know That’s and then I just took the rest of them like that [laughs] (0:15:33) Kevin: Um, sh*t skins, yeah it does. (0:15:36) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, okay. (0:15:44) Kevin: Um, oh that’s the butterfly, wow those are big butterflies. (0:15:47) Kevin: Um, oh those are fascinating buildings. (0:15:49) Kevin: Um, let’s see, player birthdays. (0:15:53) Kevin: There is the birthday, birthday celebration. (0:15:57) Kevin: There is a huge pinata that you can hit, so I’m already down for this. (0:16:01) Kevin: Um, geez that’s like a full sized lion looking pinata, that’s great. (0:16:06) Kevin: Um, that’s uh, so all that’s included in the patch. (0:16:10) Kevin: Aside from that there will be DLC available. (0:16:13) Kevin: Um, all six different packs, trick or treat, spirit battle, rock and roll, cyber pop, monkey monkey, and dreamy ram. (0:16:22) Kevin: They’re all, they contain different items, packs, outfits, items, whatever. (0:16:27) Kevin: You guys can check the Steam page for details. (0:16:30) Kevin: Uh, for, yeah, there’s more details out there than we talked about, but, uh, yeah, that seems like a hefty patch. That seems like fun. (0:16:38) Kelly: Yeah, there’s a lot in this. This page goes on. (0:16:38) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it does. Um… (0:16:41) Kelly: And there’s even a coming soon, so… (0:16:43) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they’re talking about future. (0:16:47) Kevin: Um, wow, new season of weather. Wow. (0:16:50) Kevin: Gloomy, what’s the difference between rainy and gloomy rain? I don’t know. (0:16:55) Kelly: Um, I think there’s I could I could understand that one (0:16:55) Kevin: But there you go All right, yeah, I guess. Okay, uh See like out here in Georgia. It’s a little more like rain. Not gloomy rain. Gloomy rains like hurricane force rain That’s what I think Wait no, yeah, okay. I get it (0:17:10) Kelly: No, I think gloomy rain is like when it’s kind of cold and like the sky is just dark and grey all day and it’s like just kind of constant. Like you could have nice rain, like you could have sunny rain, you could have like… (0:17:24) Kevin: Yeah, I do enjoy sun showers. (0:17:25) Kelly: It doesn’t have to be gloomy. (0:17:26) Kelly: Just like a normal rain shower isn’t always gloomy. (0:17:27) Kevin: You’re right. (0:17:28) Kevin: Yeah, no, you’re right, okay, um Yeah, so there’s all the whole bunch of stuff you guys can check that out Is that sorry? Yeah, when’s the release? I didn’t it’s it’s Oct they posted it October 20th It is oh, yeah, it’s already out on Steam. Yeah, so Now time this recording which means by the times you guys are listening. It is definitely available. That is again Sun haven (0:17:58) Kevin: Huh? Oh man, I’m just looking at the picture like a big tree man monster. I might have to check this out I like tree monsters. I I haven’t played a magic game in a minute. Well, I mean, well, maybe our keeper gentle notwithstanding Um, but it’s high, you know fantasy magic II I’m down for that. I could use that Yeah, uh, okay speaking of well, I don’t know more updates (0:18:04) Kelly: right? like i’m kind of like- i’m intrigued. i’m definitely very (0:18:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:18:18) Kelly: I feel like this is pretty different, yeah. (0:18:28) Kevin: We have so this is The what I refer to as not a city builder but a village builder because it’s medieval villagey themed But you’re helping build the whole village and run everything it is currently in early access and they are dropping a update for it I’m excited for this game myself. I’m gonna wait for the 1.0, but I love the art style. It’s cutesy and goofy (0:18:59) Kevin: and they are dropping all sorts of things in this update including a An encounter with a misunderstood Cyclops who’s very cute. His eye is just a dot His name is Eric one eye you can there will be a witch’s hut a red hooded girl Who’s looking for her grandma’s house? That that’s a speech. I don’t trust that at all. Oh, no, I don’t like that Hemisary gnomes (0:19:26) Kevin: It was seriously rare! (0:19:28) Kevin: And then a fawn with a really big nose and mustache. Oh, I like this guy. (0:19:33) Kevin: There’s a… and a few more. (0:19:36) Kevin: Well, those are fun characters that they’re adding. I love the art style and it looks really fun on these mythical, magical, whatever you want to call them. (0:19:46) Kevin: Cyclops and fawns. Gnomes. They’re fun looking characters. (0:19:48) Kelly: No, yeah, they look they look so cute. It looks very adorable (0:19:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:51) Kevin: Yep. (0:19:53) Kevin: There are, oh gosh, 50 new world events and 30 new objectives. (0:19:58) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but those are big numbers. (0:20:00) Kevin: Oh, there’s a magic bean. (0:20:03) Kevin: There’s monthly and yearly objectives. (0:20:06) Kevin: Hot weight. Positive and negative events. Oh, oh, they’re, they’re, they’re wild. Okay, I’m down for that. (0:20:15) Kevin: They have, let’s see, new buildings, a laborer guild. Oh, so you can hire better laborers. That’s fun. A bank. (0:20:24) Kevin: Oh, you can tax your villagers at different rates? (0:20:28) Kevin: Oh, that’s awesome. Grand theater? Oh, that’s a nice looking theater. (0:20:34) Kevin: Fisherman’s hut? Fish up stuff? All sorts of quality of life stuff? (0:20:40) Kevin: Well, there’s a lot of graphs in this game and things like that. I’m down for that. (0:20:45) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff coming. Like I said, I’m probably going to wait for 1.0 myself, but I’m glad that it’s coming along nicely. Yeah, that is again fabled. (0:20:57) Kelly: Is there any, is there any real estate or? (0:20:59) Kevin: Go. Oh, it is live. That update is already live as of this recording. (0:21:05) Kevin: So, yay. If anyone is playing the one point or the early access, first of all, (0:21:10) Kevin: somebody tell me if they are because I want to know about it. And it is out already. (0:21:15) Kevin: Um, yeah. All right. Good. Oh man. I’m just trying to fable them. It’s so goofy looking and the. (0:21:23) Kelly: Is there like an overall release date or no? (0:21:33) Kevin: uh not that i’m saying now um I have left here a quick glance um yeah so probably still a hot minute probably sometime in 2024 i’d hope but uh it’s not dead yet so i’ll take that let’s see next up we have uh moonstone island we have dlc for that this is which one’s this one okay all right we so we have dlc come (0:22:11) Kevin: Well, let me get to the details. Yeah, it’s the Halloween update right? That’s the key thing here. Um, (0:22:16) Kelly: I think so, ‘cause it’s for Halloween. (0:22:17) Kevin: We’ve got just a whole bunch of Spooky decors per their website gravestones skeletons a big old pumpkin house um Web’s five types of cobwebs. Oh Oh a rug. That’s just the tongue. That’s clever. I like that. Um, (0:22:38) Kevin: uh So yeah, there. (0:22:41) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:43) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:45) Kelly: I’m sorry, it’s actually not out yet. (0:22:45) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:47) Kelly: It’s not out, which I’m kinda… (0:22:47) Kevin: Um, there are n- some- the- so some of this stuff is DLC, which I’m assuming means purchasable separately, but there will be stuff included for free in the updates on the skeletons and things like that. (0:22:58) Kevin: Um, spirits are free- I don’t know what spirits are in the context of this game, but um, but they’re coming some out. (0:23:05) Kevin: Um, oh wow, I didn’t check- it’s got some good reviews. (0:23:09) Kevin: Um, I’ll have to check that out. (0:23:11) Kevin: Oh wow, what? Oh gosh, I forgot about- I’m remembering the game. (0:23:15) Kevin: There’s- you can fight like robots with a card battling system. (0:23:19) Kevin: They are… (0:23:21) Kevin: Yeah, oh man, oh gosh. (0:23:23) Kelly: These are really cute looking things, these creatures. (0:23:26) Kelly: I, yeah, like, I really like the style of it, yeah. (0:23:26) Kevin: This whole episode’s just me getting excited about games I forgot to get excited about. (0:23:31) Kevin: Um, as if I didn’t have enough already. (0:23:33) Kevin: There are really cute characters- there’s a fishbowl with legs. (0:23:36) Kevin: Um, I like that. (0:23:39) Kevin: that. And then at the end they just. (0:23:41) Kevin: Have a picture of a cat with like a sun hood. I don’t know but um, it’s very cute cat. (0:23:47) Kevin: That is Moonstone Island. That is already out, I believe. Why do we have a date for that? (0:23:52) Kelly: It is a very cute cat. (0:23:54) Kelly: The game is out, it says “NA” for them. (0:23:56) Kevin: Okay, thank you. But it says, while says it’s October 27th. I (0:24:06) Kevin: Couldn’t find that myself. Oh wait. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, October 27th. It’s only $4. (0:24:11) Kevin: Okay, that’s actually not bad at all and 10% off the first week. So there’s 46. (0:24:18) Kevin: Yeah, okay. Oh, it’s a new spirits must be a little monster buddies. That’s what it means. I’m excited. One looks like an apple with a worm through it. They’re just showing silhouettes. I’m just guessing. (0:24:23) Kelly: There you go. (0:24:29) Kevin: And yeah, I don’t know all that. Oh, I might check this out now. It’s a very cute game. (0:24:34) Kevin: Moonstone Island. Um Let’s see Next up we have oh, this isn’t an interesting (0:24:41) Kevin: one because boy, I never thought we’d see this this is Lonesome Village game that I notoriously advocate because the developers are from Mexico. It’s got the cute coyote as you saw puzzles in a tower. They’re coming out the fiscal edition. Pre-orders are live. You can check the show notes for the link. It is not from limited run games actually. A game a site called premium edition games. (0:25:11) Kevin: physical edition which includes all sorts of goodies including oh wow a full-color manual oh that’s exciting Wow a dog tag yeah they do um oh man a manual that’s exciting um yeah it’s great um yeah I I cover this game with Johnny, it was last year or year before, I don’t remember. (0:25:22) Kelly: Dude, the indie games always put so much into like what you get from… (0:25:32) Kelly: I love a manual. (0:25:33) Kelly: A full color manual too, that’s so nice. (0:25:41) Kevin: It’s a fun little game with lots of puzzles, and just very very cute little animal-closing-esque villagers. (0:25:47) Kelly: It looks really cute. The art style kind of reminds me of like Cult of the Lamb, but without the like paper feel. (0:25:47) Kevin: It’s actually funny because in the “story” of the game, so it’s called Lonesome Village because there’s a village and everyone’s kind of been turned to stone or disappeared. (0:26:03) Kevin: And the villains, they’re the people who did it very much look like Cult of the Lamb. (0:26:06) Kelly: Okay. (0:26:07) Kelly: Oh! Oh! It’s a cult! It’s a cult! What is happening here? (0:26:09) Kevin: Yeah. (0:26:12) Kevin: It came out around the time Cult of the Loom. (0:26:14) Kelly: I’m watching the trailer! Oh my god! (0:26:15) Kevin: It looks a lot like Cult of the Loom. (0:26:18) Kevin: The cult from Cult of the Loom. (0:26:20) Kevin: I think we made the joke in the episode. (0:26:22) Kevin: It came out around the same time too. (0:26:25) Kevin: Yep, yep, exactly. Yep. (0:26:26) Kelly: That’s so funny, ‘cause I was thinking it kinda like reminds me of the way they do the animals, like the style of the animals. (0:26:32) Kelly: But now that I’m watching this trailer, it’s like literally… (0:26:32) Kevin: It’s cult, it’s a lot like Cult of the Loom, Cult. (0:26:36) Kelly: That’s so funny. Oh, I gotta play this. (0:26:41) Kevin: Yeah, I have to check it out again. I still have it. (0:26:45) Kevin: It’s been a while. I’m sure they patched it up and done some stuff. (0:26:48) Kevin: ‘Cause I had a few rough edges back then, but I’m curious. (0:26:51) Kevin: I might do another look at it at some point. (0:26:54) Kevin: Because, yeah, props to–but, again, Mexican dev team, so I gotta shout them out. (0:26:59) Kevin: Ogre Pixel, that’s the name. (0:27:02) Kevin: But, yeah, that is a cute little logo of an Ogre–Pixillator Ogre. (0:27:07) Kevin: And again, this is the physical edition release. (0:27:11) Kevin: $40 for the premium edition, which seems to be their only version but includes all sorts of goodies. Um, I When do pre-orders end? I don’t know if I see that but the pre-orders are available now So you can check out the site and get it. Um Alright next up we have Not Garden Galaxy is perfect. We’re heading on the notes. That’s a different game that I was going to cover almost (0:27:42) Kevin: Garden story. That’s the one with the playable grape. That looks a lot like Stardew Valley a lot like It has It’s very cute though the grape that’s playable It is an update that has 11 new languages. Wow, that is a lot of languages I don’t know which ones they are. I just see the It’s out on Steam and switch already this update (0:28:09) Kevin: Very cool. Yeah, I actually don’t know what language is. I don’t know. (0:28:11) Kevin: Let’s see the details. But wow, that’s a big number. Good for them. (0:28:16) Kevin: Always props for making it more available for more people and whatnot. (0:28:19) Kevin: Yep. It is. The grape is very cute. (0:28:20) Kelly: Yeah, that’s always awesome. It really does look like stardew though. It’s cute though (0:28:25) Kevin: Next up, a new game announcement for as far as I can tell. (0:28:31) Kevin: This is called Fantastic Haven, which actually I find really intriguing. (0:28:36) Kevin: It’s the prime… (0:28:40) Kevin: Let me read the– (0:28:41) Kevin: The elevator pitch. (0:28:43) Kevin: So, this is a… (0:28:57) Kevin: Yeah, a Zook cheaper-esque type game, but they’re all magical creatures. (0:29:03) Kevin: Um, so you’re building big pens that look like circular homes more? (0:29:09) Kevin: Um, you alter the land and… (0:29:11) Kevin: It’s full 3D graphics, um, the… I think the actual designs of the creatures are actually quite nice, um… (0:29:18) Kevin: I like animals and critters and… (0:29:21) Kevin: …cheaping them and whatnot, so I’m already pretty interested, um, especially with the spin of… (0:29:26) Kevin: …like, they’re all magical creatures, I don’t see any other animals in here, I see like a griffin, uh… (0:29:31) Kelly: No, I’ve only seen, like, yeah, griffins and some weird frog with, like, horns and stuff. (0:29:31) Kevin: Yup, it’s a bullfrog, you get it? (0:29:36) Kelly: Ah, yes, yes, yes. (0:29:41) Kevin: The color shows a lot more, uh, it looks like you’re even busting some out of, like, cages and, like, carny… (0:29:46) Kevin: …you know, those carnival cages with the wheels, the cars, um… (0:29:51) Kevin: So that’s… that looks very fun, yeah, like I said, a lot of menus, probably, um… (0:29:57) Kevin: …very zookeeper tycoon-esque, um, but with the heavy, uh, magical fantasy paint over it, um… (0:30:06) Kevin: So that is right now the only release date planned is for Q2 of 2024 so it’ll probably be a minute but look forward to it I certainly am those are some fun designs yeah it’s it’s it’s charming enough for me I’m definitely interested um and then lastly okay this one I want to talk about in depth a little more because this one’s affecting me personally uh well actually there’s two me and my neck was night market once again got another patch that one. (0:30:41) Kevin: one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:48) Kevin: I’m not gonna go into the details because I don’t remember them but the other one I want to talk about because we just talked about last week is paleo pines. (0:30:53) Kevin: We just got yup okay so uh one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:54) Kelly: Which I still have to play, but I have not yet. (0:31:11) Kevin: We can change how quickly time passes in the game um oh gosh so one of the after I recorded last week with Spencer and we talked and played I was getting a lot of crashes. (0:31:23) Kevin: They had released a patch previously to fix some of that they said it was like a memory issue um but they were still experiencing it. (0:31:26) Kelly: Mmm. Okay. (0:31:31) Kevin: I felt like the more farther I got in the game the more I was crashed getting crashes uh they addressed some of that. (0:31:37) Kevin: that the game is still not free of crashes because (0:31:41) Kevin: we’ve been probably within an hour after downloading the update the game crashed on me again But it is better in general So they’re definitely aware and working on it at probably top of their list There is Also, there’s a whole list and you can check the show notes for them. I’m trying to look at which ones that are Stand out to me. Oh, there’s a cooking pot (0:31:46) Kelly: Oh, God. (0:32:07) Kevin: But it was weird because it was at some other guy’s house you have to go all the way to this other (0:32:12) Kevin: cook stuff but now you can buy one for your own ranch so that’s great oh here’s a fun one um so you can ride your dinosaurs because of course you can but the thing was whenever you got off of them they would just run away from you at max speed it was whole it was wild you could like try to stop them but um clearly not intended they have addressed that and and this definitely was an update needed and and it works um they will no longer run away from you when you get off of them (0:32:42) Kevin: um yes well luckily I think it was only in the ranch like your home base when it happened they wouldn’t leave you when you’re out in the wild oh my god that would be the worst yes but it’s still a pain because your character is a lot slower than the dinosaur so yeah yeah it’s just a pain having to go across the ranch to find them I mean it’s a pretty big ranch too um (0:32:44) Kelly: feeling it’s like okay nice I can I can get to the place I’m going to but once you’re there you’re stuck there now (0:32:56) Kelly: Oh, okay, okay, I was picturing like you, yeah, like you in the middle of like some field or something. (0:33:12) Kevin: uh there’s all sorts oh horse lock so there was a uh resource called forestwood that was needed for a lot of things it was pretty rare they increased the respawn on that that’s great um they did some ui improvements which were nice uh um lots of other things some oh there was a storage glitch spencer talked about think they fixed that um yeah just sort lots of little things (0:33:42) Kevin: because there were lots of little things that needed fixing um like I said still not 100 percent yeah yeah there is um where is it do they not have it um so there there is I read there is one glitch that they haven’t addressed yet um they know it’s an issue but for some reason at some point and it’s happened to me your game will reset to the first day of the game because there’s you know calendar like most farm. (0:34:12) Kevin: games and whatnot like you’ll keep all your stuff but somehow the calendar will just have reset to the very first game or very first day of the year which is wild um luckily I was able to get around that if you encounter it you can just reload an old save and it’s fine but um that was the wild glitch to see um but yeah that was I’m glad that came out because that addressed a lot of the little nitpicks Spencer and I had with the game and I’m sure (0:34:42) Kevin: they’re still working hard on that so good for you paleopines that update again is out already for switch and probably the other versions whatever versions it’s on all right so that was uh yeah the hearty helping of news and things but that’s now we’re doing that let’s talk about grave graveyard keeper yeah what’s what’s the tagline the most inaccurate medieval simulator isn’t that (0:35:09) Kelly: Something like that. I know inaccurate is involved of [laugh] (0:35:14) Kevin: Hold on let me look at it. Um the most inaccurate cemetery simulation game. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s what it is Okay Well Yeah, so again, um It and this game’s been up for years at this point. Um, I’ll covered it years ago Yeah. Yeah, there you go. That’s cute (0:35:24) Kelly: Oh, the most inaccurate medieval, yeah, cemetery sim of the year. (0:35:36) Kelly: Uh, they had their five year anniversary actually in August. (0:35:42) Kevin: There’s a bunch of DLC I bought the (0:35:44) Kevin: version with all the DLC I don’t know what the base game hazard does not have. (0:35:48) Kevin: I’ve only played it for an afternoon or two. I don’t think I’ve reached any of the DLC portions yet probably. (0:35:49) Kelly: Oh, did you? Okay. (0:35:57) Kevin: They’re all parody names there’s a stranger sins there’s breaking something (0:35:57) Kelly: Um, I’m trying to remember. I know the DLC… (0:35:59) Kelly: Yes, because there’s better save soul. (0:36:04) Kelly: Um, I did look into getting them, but I didn’t- I didn’t, because I think it was like- (0:36:11) Kelly: I feel like there’s- there’s so much going on in this game already. (0:36:14) Kevin: Even if it is, there’s a lot going on. (0:36:14) Kelly: Uh, that I was very happy to not have the added, um, things that like go along with the better save soul one. I heard that gets a lot of pretty tedious. (0:36:24) Kevin: Yeah, heh heh heh. (0:36:25) Kevin: Better save solo, that’s good. (0:36:29) Kevin: I don’t think that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:31) Kevin: That’s it? I don’t know if that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:32) Kelly: Oh, are you playing on Switch? I am not gonna lie. I have not. (0:36:36) Kelly: I’ve been so bad at playing my Switch this year. (0:36:44) Kevin: But, I mean, that’s fine, like, I know that the Switch port gets black for a good reason. (0:36:55) Kevin: There’s a Switch tax for sure, so I don’t blame you. (0:36:57) Kevin: But hey, at least we can compare notes on that. (0:37:00) Kevin: If you played on Steam, I would guess? (0:37:10) Kevin: Um, but okay, so let’s okay, let’s the elevator pitch Okay, first of all, I didn’t expect that this game’s an isekai That I didn’t expect at all so for people unfamiliar with isekai that is a genre of anime primarily where a character wakes up in a simulated often fantasy type world (0:37:38) Kevin: Sword Art Online and just… (0:37:40) Kevin: …other ones. It’s a whole trope now. (0:37:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:37:43) Kelly: I was gonna say it breaks the, you know, inherited your grandpa’s farm trope though. (0:37:44) Kevin: … (0:37:46) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. (0:37:48) Kevin: You’re just a guy who gets hit by a car cause he’s looking at his phone. (0:37:52) Kevin: Don’t look at your phone when crossing the streets. (0:37:54) Kevin: It’s dark in the rain, people. (0:37:56) Kevin: It’s not recommended. (0:37:58) Kevin: And he wakes… (0:37:59) Kelly: Poor dude’s just trying to give back to his girlfriend or whatever. (0:38:00) Kevin: …yeah, his love, as he says, and… (0:38:03) Kevin: …he wakes up in a graveyard area and… (0:38:08) Kevin: There’s a talking skull that talks to you. (0:38:10) Kevin: And he says, “Hey, welcome. You’re the graveyard keeper, I guess.” (0:38:13) Kevin: Um, more or less, and sure enough, you’re put in charge of this graveyard in this little medieval village area. (0:38:23) Kevin: And you’re trying to figure out how to get back home while managing the graveyard and all the stuff people are asking you. (0:38:32) Kevin: Because, of course, people are going to ask you to do everything around here. (0:38:35) Kevin: Uh… (0:38:36) Kelly: I mean, what would a game be without everybody asking you to do all these things? (0:38:40) Kevin: Right, right. (0:38:42) Kevin: Um, so, okay, hell, you beat the game, correct? What are your overall impressions? (0:38:50) Kelly: I really liked the game. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of stuff to do, (0:38:57) Kelly: like it can get a bit overwhelming, but I think, you know, it definitely involves, you know, (0:38:59) Kevin: Boy does it. (0:39:01) Kevin: Oh. Yep. (0:39:04) Kelly: looking things up online. But I will say there is an issue with how intuitive it is. (0:39:08) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:10) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:12) Kelly: I think I could have been further along in my gameplay if I understood some of the (0:39:20) Kelly: panics. A lot better. And I will say on that note, it was not always easy to find the answers on the internet. So that made it even worse. And sometimes if you did find an answer, (0:39:21) Kevin: Yep. Okay, so yeah, so. Mm-hmm. (0:39:31) Kevin: Oh yeah, the double whammy, oh yeah. (0:39:35) Kevin: Yup, it’s wild. (0:39:38) Kelly: it was from like 2018, so something got patched or didn’t work like that anymore. (0:39:46) Kelly: So, that was my biggest issue. (0:39:48) Kelly: Did it stop me from putting in, you know, (0:39:50) Kelly: 90 hours, I think, or whatever into the game? (0:39:55) Kelly: No, but there were definitely moments where I was frustrated. (0:39:59) Kelly: Or, like, again, just like, I was playing the game, I was enjoying myself, (0:40:03) Kelly: but I could have been further along than what I was. (0:40:07) Kevin: Yeah, um, okay. Mm-hmm Okay, yeah for sure they’re just Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for comparison I got the game Thursday I think today’s like Saturday. So two days ago So I’ve only played for and Mario wonder so I didn’t play as much yesterday So I played the game for an afternoon and then some um, I like the game a lot. Um, (0:40:07) Kelly: And not even in, like, a micromanagy, like, you know, whatever kind of way. (0:40:13) Kelly: Like, in, like, a… (0:40:15) Kelly: It would have made more sense. (0:40:26) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:40:37) Kevin: I think it is Almost minecrafty and how open it is and crafting and everything But I fully agree like that’s my biggest criticism there’s a lot that is not intuitive Or explained well Yep, yep, yep, I’m sure (0:40:50) Kelly: you haven’t even gotten or opened a lot of the, you know, different aspects of the game yet at this point, I’m sure, because it really expands. It expands a lot. There is a lot to do. There is so (0:41:03) Kevin: But I can imagine… I mean I see the skill tree. (0:41:07) Kevin: So… I can… I can… she’s… I can… (0:41:12) Kevin: So there’s a skill tree in this game, right? You have to get points to unlock your skills. (0:41:18) Kevin: And you can see how far it goes. And yes, I can see there’s a lot to unlock and do and whatnot. (0:41:24) Kevin: But… I think the skill tree is probably where I can direct my first criticism. (0:41:32) Kevin: Because there’s three types of points, whatever you want to call them. (0:41:37) Kevin: Red, green, and blue, and you need different amounts of each for unlocking each new skill, which lets you craft new things or do new things, whatnot. (0:41:46) Kevin: Um, the red and green work hard to get, but the blue, the blue is killing me because I hit a point where I had like one blue point overall and couldn’t figure out how to get more. (0:41:56) Kelly: You run out of them. (0:41:58) Kevin: Yeah. (0:41:59) Kelly: There’s a certain point where the game just stops you from getting more for a bit. (0:42:02) Kevin: Really? Wow. (0:42:04) Kelly: Not like stops you. (0:42:06) Kelly: There’s definitely a roadblock, I would say. (0:42:11) Kevin: - Yeah, okay. (0:42:14) Kelly: I struggled with that for so long. (0:42:17) Kelly: And then, of course, at a certain point, it’s like, oh. (0:42:20) Kelly: Now, actually, you’re out of red. (0:42:23) Kelly: Or now you’re out of green or whatever. (0:42:25) Kelly: And it’s like, oh, something that I– (0:42:26) Kelly: so I think one of them is done from manual labor, red, I think. (0:42:27) Kevin: yep yep your manufacturing and things yeah red okay oh you don’t get read from them (0:42:34) Kelly: Yeah, so at a certain point, you get helper zombies that you can assign to do things. (0:42:42) Kelly: So you’re no longer getting the red from those things that you would be getting red from. (0:42:47) Kelly: So it definitely makes you have to stop and think and watch everything. (0:42:56) Kevin: Yup, absolutely, um, it’s a very resource-manage-y heavy game and that includes your skill points or whatever you want to call them. (0:43:07) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:43:09) Kevin: Like I can see the blue are going to be very scarce. (0:43:11) Kelly: But I think it’s interesting because it does… (0:43:13) Kelly: Sorry, I was gonna say it just it does impact, I feel like, (0:43:18) Kelly: what you’re trying to do in that day. Because if you’re trying to get blue points… (0:43:19) Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. (0:43:22) Kevin: The nice thing, one of the nicest things about the game, (0:43:26) Kevin: there’s no real pressure. (0:43:28) Kevin: There’s no seasons or years or whatever. (0:43:31) Kevin: There’s a week. (0:43:32) Kevin: So like in six, seven, I don’t remember how long, how many days, (0:43:36) Kevin: but that’s the worst that you have to wait. (0:43:37) Kelly: It’s seven days Which and I liked I like I really like the fact that there was no pressure on the seasons or When you finished the game even or anything like that. I also liked the Each day is a different person You have to make sure that you’re getting the things you need to have done before that day so you can go and deal with that person (0:43:38) Kevin: Yep. Which go by quickly. (0:43:42) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:44:03) Kevin: Yep, he just gotta wait until… (0:44:03) Kelly: Because there’s definitely some weeks where if you miss that person you’re screwed (0:44:07) Kelly: Yup. And there is something later on in the game, you know, when things have slowed down in certain areas and you’re just like waiting for that one day where you can fast forward. (0:44:10) Kevin: Until that point. (0:44:21) Kelly: Yes, but I do actually want to say on that point, I think this is very interesting because there is no pause button. There’s no space yet. (0:44:21) Kevin: Yeah, sure that makes sense. Yeah, you can fast-forward at any point you should go to sleep and (0:44:32) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, even if you’re in your menus, time goes on. (0:44:37) Kelly: Yeah, you have to literally like go to the exit screen or whatever. Like the main menu page. (0:44:41) Kevin: Yeah Yep Yep, so if you’re looking through your notes here You know hemming and hawing at a menu thinking about where you want to spend your points that happened to me just just today When I was playing I cuz I finally got some blue points today. And so I was just like agonizing over I wanted where I wanted to spend them and before when I got out of the menu Oh, it’s evening already. Cool. The whole day’s [laughter] (0:44:43) Kelly: There’s a certain page that stops time, but the rest of them don’t. (0:44:48) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:09) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:11) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:12) Kevin: But they’re the kind of I mean, I don’t know if it was their intent or not But the way to combat that it’s very easy to reroll your did your save like you own there’s no autosave It just saves when you go when you wake up So most of the time you can say you’re pretty much have a safe at the start of the date or start of the day, excuse me, and You can just reload to that and have a plan or save yourself (0:45:23) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yes. (0:45:29) Kelly: I would just quit the game. (0:45:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:40) Kelly: Oh yeah, no, there was many times where I would either just, you would see like the NPC walking away from their post, and I would have to go and reset the game and then do the day over and make sure I got there early enough. (0:45:47) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:50) Kevin: Yep. (0:45:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:54) Kevin: That happened to me twice already when I go down and Snake is running away and like, “No, I need to talk to you, Snake.” (0:46:02) Kelly: oh god he’s so annoying he’s so annoying for the skill points though I think it’s like kind of fun like there’s some weird ones you can choose from uh-huh (0:46:05) Kevin: He is. (0:46:08) Kevin: He is. (0:46:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:46:13) Kevin: Overall, I’m a big fan of the Skilled Trees, umm… (0:46:17) Kevin: Because you can very much pick and choose if you want to focus on certain areas and whatnot. (0:46:23) Kevin: Umm, obviously like… (0:46:25) Kevin: To get green points, that’s the farming stuff, so you do want to invest in some of that stuff. (0:46:30) Kevin: Umm, but like, early on you can really get through a lot of the wood and metalworking stuff. (0:46:37) Kevin: Umm, and again, with almost no pressure on when to do it, umm, it’s… (0:46:42) Kevin: It’s very open and you’re very free to pick and choose as you want. (0:46:46) Kevin: You know, (0:46:47) Kevin: the limitations of how many skill points you actually have notwithstanding. (0:46:52) Kevin: I think it is a clever system. (0:46:54) Kevin: And because you get to see what’s coming ahead, that helps you plan that too. (0:47:00) Kevin: I really like that. (0:47:01) Kelly: Yes, definitely. (0:47:01) Kevin: Um… (0:47:02) Kelly: There was definitely some areas in the skill tree though where I did not understand what, (0:47:09) Kelly: like if you unlocked something, (0:47:12) Kelly: I didn’t understand how to access it afterwards, (0:47:15) Kelly: which then led to me diving down a rabbit hole, (0:47:18) Kelly: trying to figure it out. (0:47:18) Kevin: Yeah, sometimes that’s a little unclear most of the time When you look at the skill tree thing it says okay, you can craft at this bench or that bench or whatever But some are not very clear. Yeah Some aren’t super clear. Yeah But I do agree (0:47:27) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it definitely is pretty good. (0:47:30) Kelly: It’s pretty good. (0:47:34) Kelly: Can we talk about the main premise of the game, which I think is the most weird and fun part is, you know, collecting your corpses? (0:47:41) Kevin: Yeah, the it’s definitely yeah the differentiator the the the graveyard itself. Yeah, let’s talk about that (0:47:43) Kelly: Because you are, you are quite literally the graveyard keeper. So you get a (0:47:54) Kelly: Annoyed little donkey that delivers corpses to you. (0:47:56) Kevin: I’m red donkey from a leftist stable [laughter] (0:47:57) Kelly: And oh my god, there was so many times where I would hear that bell and just be so far away from home. (0:48:06) Kelly: And just go running because it’s like the second you hear that bell that corpse starts, you know, deteriorating. (0:48:12) Kevin: Yep Yeah, that’s that’s an interesting aspect that the forps is deteriorate and it affects a lot of things And yeah, they’re kind of deliver just at random times. It feels like I didn’t detect any pattern Umm… (0:48:22) Kelly: Yeah. (0:48:23) Kelly: Yes. (0:48:27) Kelly: No, they can definitely be whenever. (0:48:31) Kelly: And they can pile up too. (0:48:34) Kevin: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve had that happen yet, but I could see that happening. (0:48:35) Kelly: Yeah, no, they can definitely pile up. (0:48:43) Kelly: I mean, this game goes in depth. (0:48:48) Kelly: I have freezers for bodies. (0:48:53) Kelly: So, you know, it’s like you are literally treating it like a morgue, like… (0:48:57) Kelly: But I think one of the most fun parts is removing the organs, (0:49:03) Kelly: but also the most hard to understand initially. (0:49:06) Kevin: Right, so yeah, let’s talk about that because as very early on you’re introduced that you have options to do the corpse One you can bury them in your graveyard. It has a prettiness rating you how you decorate it Well, you bury them and whatnot You can even just throw it in the river or cremate them or You can take them into your morgan Do a little bisection, you know see what you can poke around and find in there pull out a skull some blood What? (0:49:36) Kevin: A bit of flesh. (0:49:38) Kevin: It’s fascinating that they gave you this option. (0:49:43) Kevin: There’s… (0:49:44) Kevin: I haven’t gotten too in-depth with the body parts. (0:49:47) Kelly: So, I’ll explain it. It’s a lot. (0:49:51) Kelly: Basically, your corpse, so when you bury a corpse, you want it to be as high rated as possible because it impacts your cemeteries overall like beauty rating, (0:50:05) Kelly: which is a whole different aspect. (0:50:07) Kelly: And that’s a big part of the game because it kind of roadblocks you if you don’t keep up with it. (0:50:11) Kelly: But so you want to make sure you’re removing. (0:50:14) Kelly: If you remove certain organs, it makes your corpses… (0:50:17) Kelly: …that’s how you can remove them. (0:50:19) Kelly: If you remove other organs, it decreases it, and they don’t really tell you at first. (0:50:23) Kelly: You have to unlock skills on the skill tree… (0:50:25) Kelly: …that tell you. (0:50:25) Kevin: Yeah, I mean they tell you like there’s bad organs, but you don’t you can’t tell which ones until you go get that later (0:50:29) Kelly: Yes. Yes. (0:50:34) Kelly: And so you can remove organs, and you can also try to put the organ back. (0:50:38) K

Kev and Spencer talk about Paleo Pines Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:21: What Have We Been Up To 00:14:37: News 00:37:08: Paleo Pines 01:45:09: Outro Links Garden Buddies Release Garden Buddies Release Trailer Ikonei Island Friends Pass Farming Simulator 22 Carrots Preview Garden Galaxy Autumn Update Mineko’s Night Market Patches Paleo Pines Patches Animal Crossing Lego Paleo Pines Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:31) Kevin: Welcome farmers to the harvest season! (0:00:48) Spencer: Spared no expense. (0:00:49) Kevin: Hello. See what I wanted… I would have preferred the kazoo version. Have you heard that one? The kazoo version of Jurassic Park? Oh, I’ll have to send you a (0:00:50) Spencer: I have not heard that version. (0:01:00) Spencer: Aha. (0:01:01) Kevin: link. It’s an amazing one. I’ll do that right now. But in the meanwhile, hello listeners, farmers. I’m your host, Kevin, and with me today is Spencer! (0:01:14) Spencer: Yes, they thought they could get rid of me after the last episode I was on, but I’m back, (0:01:21) Spencer: so deal with it. (0:01:22) Kevin: And why? Because dinosaurs, of course, um, we are here to talk about, uh, (0:01:32) Kevin: Heliopines and Spencer, our resident dinosaur lover, alongside me. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, I’m also a big fan. Um, we’re, uh, we were both very excited for this one. (0:01:46) Spencer: Yeah, I remember seeing it and I was like, “Oh man, I gotta wedge my way, force my way in with Al this time again.” (0:01:50) Kevin: Yeah. (0:01:53) Kevin: Yup, yup. (0:01:55) Kevin: But before that, um, you know–oh, see, I sent you the kazoo cover of Jurassic Park. (0:02:03) Kevin: Um, but before we get into paleopines, as usual, we’re gonna cover some news and other stuff. (0:02:11) Kevin: As usual, you can find the show notes and the transcript on the website, as always. (0:02:20) Kevin: Alright, but what we- (0:02:23) Spencer: Ah, games I’ve been playing. Well, I was playing Tears of the Kingdom for a while, and then, honestly, I’ve been playing a couple mobile games, so I started playing Monster Hunter now. (0:02:35) Spencer: Are you playing that? (0:02:36) Kevin: Oh, I am not okay first off for have you played Monster Hunter not mobile version Okay Uh-huh, right Okay Okay, but you hunted some things you have familiarity, okay, okay (0:02:37) Spencer: Oh, yeah. (0:02:45) Spencer: So I have Rise, and I also have Worlds, I think it is, for PS4. (0:02:51) Spencer: I just barely scratched the surface of both of them. (0:02:55) Spencer: I think it got a little bit farther in Rise than I did in Worlds. (0:02:59) Spencer: Oh yeah, I definitely hunted some things. (0:03:05) Spencer: See, the issue with me in those kind of games is like… (0:03:06) Kevin: Uh huh. (0:03:07) Spencer: The feedback loop for that kind of stuff is actually really… (0:03:12) Spencer: I like really enjoy it, but I get stuck on like (0:03:15) Spencer: the first level, because I’m like, “Oh cool, I hunted this monster. Let me like, hunt it again. Let me hunt it again.” (0:03:21) Kevin: Uh-huh, right. (0:03:21) Spencer: I just keep on hunting the same thing over and over again, and I never end up proceeding to the next level or the next area or wherever. (0:03:23) Kevin: I mean, that’s fine. You’ve got to do that at app points. (0:03:29) Spencer: Yeah, that’s true. So I am familiar with the series a little bit, but yeah, it’s been playing a lot of now. (0:03:41) Spencer: Well, I was playing a lot of now. (0:03:42) Kevin: Oh, okay, so tell me about now, because I’m fascinated how this works, but this is by Niantic, the Pokemon Go people. (0:03:43) Spencer: kind of… (0:03:49) Spencer: Yeah, so… (0:03:53) Spencer: So basically, like, while you’re walking around, you know, there’ll just be like, monsters kind of out where you are. (0:04:00) Spencer: Um, god, I think someone pointed out… (0:04:02) Spencer: It’s almost like the movie, in that it’s our world, but the monsters have now kind of like, invaded our world. (0:04:10) Spencer: Um, so you’re just walking around, there’ll be like, lesser monsters, you know, (0:04:15) Spencer: and like, ones that would actually be like, a hunt in the real game. (0:04:18) Spencer: And, you just fight ’em, you’re kind of timed, similarly to how you would do like a, say like a raid in Pokemon Go. (0:04:26) Spencer: Um, a lot more… (0:04:28) Spencer: Intensive than Pokemon Go, if you’ll believe that. (0:04:32) Spencer: You’re still basically clicking. (0:04:34) Spencer: But you can like… (0:04:35) Kevin: Okay, sure I right you’re you’re on mobile there’s only so much you can do right uh-huh (0:04:36) Spencer: Yeah, you can like, swipe to dodge. (0:04:40) Spencer: Yeah, you can swipe to dodge, you can get perfect, like, you know, perfect dodges and stuff. (0:04:45) Spencer: Um, and then there are some combinations. (0:04:48) Spencer: ‘Cause I’m using, um, what is it, Greatsword? (0:04:51) Spencer: And you can like, kind of do this thing where you like, if you start swinging and then you swipe, you’ll do kind of that shoulder, you know, shoulder charge attack. (0:05:03) Kevin: - Yeah, yeah, right. (0:05:03) Spencer: So there are definitely like, combos and stuff that you can figure out. (0:05:06) Spencer: It would benefit from a like, tutorial, you know, like in a fighting game, you have your little like, tutorial, you know, practice area. (0:05:15) Kevin: - Right. (0:05:15) Spencer: Or something like that, ‘cause you can like, then you could figure out, yeah, training room. (0:05:16) Kevin: - Oh, okay, yeah, training room, yeah. (0:05:20) Spencer: Um, but yeah, so you walk around, you fight monsters, you collect, uh, collect different resources, your little, um… (0:05:29) Spencer: What are the little cats called? (0:05:32) Kevin: Uh, the Palicos? (0:05:33) Spencer: Palakos, yeah, you have one, so it runs around and collects resources for you. (0:05:34) Kevin: Right, right. (0:05:38) Spencer: Um, it’ll also mark monsters too, so you can like, come back. (0:05:41) Spencer: back. Yeah, it’s pretty, my understanding is it’s a little bit more leaning. (0:05:45) Spencer: towards the world’s aesthetic. So the different monsters from there and stuff. (0:05:48) Kevin: Yeah, okay, sure. (0:05:50) Spencer: It’s fun. You kind of plateau a little bit if you aren’t able to go out and get resources. I’ve needed to upgrade like my weapons for a while now but I just simply can’t find find the resources I need. So it is what it is. But yeah, it’s been fun. (0:06:00) Kevin: Ahh. (0:06:02) Kevin: Okay. (0:06:04) Kevin: Have you tried any other weapons? (0:06:09) Spencer: Well, in Rise and in World I was using Swishax, which is not in this. (0:06:14) Kevin: Right what what (0:06:15) Spencer: Unfortunately. Yeah, they left it out. So I had to go with the next best thing. (0:06:22) Spencer: They do have, you know, your like kind of daily challenges that give you experience for your rank and some of the challenges will ask of you to do things with other weapons. So they do try to like kind of get you to branch out. It’ll be like, “Oh, (0:06:40) Spencer: kill three monsters with like a hammer or something like that.” So you will inevitably have at least one of each weapon somewhat, you know, upgraded and stuff so that way those little challenges won’t be such a pain. (0:06:40) Kevin: Okay. Okay. (0:06:52) Kevin: Uh-huh okay okay I I asked because so for people who aren’t familiar with monster hunter as the name implies right you’re just out hunting monsters but there’s different types of weapons and they all play significantly differently so I wonder like is that the same here does a bow hunt player feel different (0:07:20) Spencer: They definitely do. The, you know, like the sword and shield is a lot faster. You start off with that too. (0:07:27) Spencer: So you kind of like, I think you don’t even get to choose a different weapon until you reach rank 10. (0:07:33) Spencer: Which can go by pretty quickly depending on like the area you are and you know how close you are. (0:07:40) Spencer: Much like Pokemon Go, you know, it’s a lot of it’s dependent on how close you are to like stops and other points of interest, right? (0:07:46) Spencer: So, you know, if you’re close to things like that… (0:07:50) Spencer: …you’re ranking probably go up pretty quickly within the first day. (0:07:54) Spencer: And you can get to the other weapons. (0:07:56) Spencer: But yeah, there is definitely a different playstyle to each one. (0:08:00) Spencer: You know, for as much as it is just tapping and swiping. (0:08:04) Kevin: Okay, all right, that’s interesting, but the fact that they don’t have the Switch X weapon I’ve played for Decade Plus, yeah, I know that game goes in the trash. (0:08:18) Spencer: Yeah, it was kind of a bummer when I saw that, I was like, “Oh man!” (0:08:24) Kevin: Alright, what else have you been up to? (0:08:25) Spencer: Umm, that and, oh god, this is so embarrassing for me to admit, but have you ever seen the ads for uh, that mobile game, Raid? (0:08:35) Kevin: Rage Battle Legends! (0:08:37) Spencer: Shadow Legends, yeah! (0:08:38) Kevin: Did you get your 300 free heroes? (0:08:39) Spencer: I was just, I was like, I… (0:08:43) Spencer: I did not, I just downloaded it, I was like, “What is this game about?” I keep seeing (0:08:48) Spencer: it, let me just try it, you know, if, for those of you who don’t know me, I download too many mobile games, and then my phone is just like full of them, and I don’t play them, (0:08:59) Spencer: and it’s just, it’s a bad habit that I need to stop and break, but I was like, “Whatever, (0:09:04) Spencer: they have money to hire all these famous actors to promote their game, so maybe it’s good.” (0:09:11) Spencer: And it’s not bad, I’ll be honest, you know what, it’s not bad, it is definitely a mobile game. It has everything you’d expect from a mobile game. It has… (0:09:18) Spencer: you know, timed items, rechargeable energy, you know, all the little… that bombards you with buying packs and stuff, but you know, whatever. (0:09:30) Spencer: I’m not into PvP too much, so I’m not concerned about having the best champions right away and stuff, but you know, it’s a mobile game. (0:09:40) Spencer: I don’t know what else there is to say about it. You wait for things. (0:09:43) Kevin: Okay, like okay, what do the it’s a is it a it’s it a gotcha game? I’m assuming it’s a gotcha game right to get your (0:09:52) Spencer: yeah so there are there are these like hero crystals or something I’ve only been playing it for not too long so pardon me for any any hardcore raid players out there I just called the whatever you know these crystals and you like summon heroes and stuff and you know nine times out of ten you’re summoning one that’s gonna be used for fodder for something else but every once in a while you’ll summon some epic hero or whatever so yeah it’s a gachi game (0:10:01) Kevin: Okay [laughter] (0:10:20) Kevin: Okay, are there any cool designs? (0:10:23) Spencer: » They’re all pretty cool. (0:10:25) Spencer: If you are into like, you know, very like high fantasy and dark fantasy kind of stuff. (0:10:30) Spencer: They have some good stuff, you know, like Lord of the Rings or like, (0:10:34) Spencer: I don’t know what else, The Witcher. (0:10:37) Spencer: If you’re into that kind of stuff, then you’ll probably be drawn to the aesthetic. (0:10:39) Kevin: Okay, hi, Fanny. (0:10:41) Spencer: Yeah, there are, it is a little odd, some of the designs, (0:10:46) Spencer: cuz like they lean into like fantasy of multiple cultures. (0:10:52) Spencer: There’s like a whole subset of like, you know, (0:10:55) Spencer: clearly Asian inspired fantasy people and creatures. (0:10:58) Kevin: Oh, door. Okay. (0:11:00) Spencer: Which is kind of interesting to see with more European style, (0:11:05) Spencer: more medieval style fantasy. (0:11:08) Spencer: You know, you’ll have your like, knights of the round table style knight fighting alongside like a ninja, but I mean, (0:11:17) Spencer: I can see why they have enough money to make ads like that, so it’s very solid. (0:11:22) Kevin: Yeah? (0:11:23) Spencer: I will say that, yeah. (0:11:23) Kevin: And hey, now that it’s been brought on the podcast, I’m sure they’ll approach us for a sponsorship now. (0:11:28) Spencer: Hopefully, yeah, you’re welcome. (0:11:29) Kevin: There you go, Al. (0:11:31) Kevin: I can’t wait for Al to read how much he loves rage at relations. (0:11:37) Kevin: Um… (0:11:40) Kevin: Okay. (0:11:41) Kevin: Oh, hey- (0:11:41) Spencer: What have you been playing? (0:11:43) Kevin: Ugh… (0:11:45) Kevin: Mostly- (0:11:46) Kevin: Mostly paleopines, I don’t lie. (0:11:48) Kevin: Um… (0:11:49) Kevin: This week’s been a lot of paleopines. (0:11:53) Kevin: But, uh, before that, I’m going to plug the other show, Rainbow Road Radio, (0:12:01) Kevin: hosted by my- our mutual friend Alex, and I happen to be on it. (0:12:07) Kevin: We covered Luigi’s Mansion last week, we are back from our break. (0:12:12) Kevin: And, uh, to kick off Spooktober- (0:12:15) Kevin: Well, you know, Halloween, whatever. (0:12:18) Kevin: Uh, we played Luigi’s Mansion. (0:12:20) Kevin: Um, the original for the GameCube. (0:12:20) Spencer: Oh, okay, okay, I was going to ask, didn’t they re-release it for DS, correct, or 3DS? (0:12:22) Kevin: Uh, yeah. (0:12:24) Kevin: Yes. (0:12:27) Kevin: Actually, that’s interesting because Alex played it on the DS. (0:12:31) Kevin: He did the remake, I did the original version. (0:12:34) Kevin: Um, and it’s interesting to hear those comparisons, but I will say, overall, like, that’s still a really good game. (0:12:43) Kevin: I never ha- I hadn’t played it before, actually. (0:12:45) Kevin: This is my first time playing the original. (0:12:45) Spencer: Oh wow, really? (0:12:46) Kevin: Yeah, um, so no nostalgia rose-colored glasses or whatever. (0:12:52) Spencer: I think that was the first game I got for my GameCube. That and Wave Race, yeah. (0:12:52) Kevin: But I enjoyed it. (0:12:53) Kevin: Yeah. (0:12:57) Kevin: Ooh, waveries, that’s a good one. (0:12:58) Spencer: Yeah. (0:13:00) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it was a launch game, I think, for the GameCube, so that makes sense. (0:13:05) Kevin: Um, I was surprised- one thing I was surprised by, because I had seen- I played the second one, Dark Moon, (0:13:14) Kevin: and I watched my brother play Luigi’s Mansion 3. (0:13:18) Kevin: So what I didn’t expect is Luigi’s Mansion 1, boy that they… (0:13:22) Kevin: Saw Resident Evil and said “What if we do Resident Evil with the Luigi?” (0:13:27) Kevin: Um, because boy that feels like a Resident Evil game, both the tank controls and the aesthetic, um, but overall very fun. (0:13:36) Kevin: Uh, so yeah, uh, check that episode out if you want more details on that, um, (0:13:36) Spencer: Mm-hmm. (0:13:44) Kevin: But yeah, aside from that, uh, a lot of the usual stuff, uh, (0:13:50) Kevin: a holly right it’s october now so every (0:13:52) Kevin: thing’s getting spooky and whatnot masters has yeah masters has Pokemon masters has spooky costumes rock sand looks great in her witch outfit Pokemon unite is getting mimic you in a week or two and Marvel snaps getting all sort of spooky cards for this season and I love the dumb monsters that they have in Marvel so I’m really happy uh but yeah that’s what I’ve been up (0:13:55) Spencer: Yeah, all the spooky updates. (0:14:22) Kevin: to like I said though a lot of paleopines I don’t think I’ve played anything else on my switch this week of the paleopines right right ok and we’ll get into wide later but before that let’s talk about the news alright first up let’s see here garden buddies. This is… (0:14:31) Spencer: Yeah, that’s been consuming my time too, as far as actual console games go, it’s just (0:14:52) Kevin: This is our previously announced game, but regardless, we have a trailer for it. (0:14:59) Kevin: Let me actually take a look at it. We have it announced for October 20th. (0:15:05) Kevin: Oh boy, that’s quite an aesthetic. I don’t remember this game at all, but these are little (0:15:16) Kevin: crops and vegetables with faces… and a bat… uh… (0:15:22) Kevin: It’s really funny. (0:15:23) Spencer: Now I watched this trailer and the voices… Man, I don’t know if they’re gonna get a cease and desist from Rare, but boy oh boy do they sound like your typical Banjo-Kazooie, uh… You know, little babbles (0:15:37) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they do they do or for people who haven’t played rare on Animal Crossing pretty close to that, too Yeah, so you don’t remember this what is this game exactly? (0:15:45) Spencer: Yeah, yeah. (0:15:53) Kevin: yeah, because I don’t remember the trailer here, but it is releasing the 20th of October I said which oh my gosh actually that’s gonna be like almost (0:16:07) Kevin: These people are listening to this podcast. It’ll be out and it will be on Steam and on switch So you can look forward to that. Let me double check (0:16:19) Spencer: Yeah, I was curious too, because I mean, the trailer that I got here was just the release date and as far as I can tell, you’re the vegetables themselves? (0:16:26) Kevin: Yeah Yep, yeah, you are it’s a unique blend of cozy gardening simulator and mental self-care that’s Okay, that’s a lot of buzzwords The art. I don’t know how I feel about the art. I kind of like it. I kind of hate it (0:16:55) Kevin: The eyes are very (0:16:56) Kevin: Very very like Toa’i baby eyes Umm But there’s a little mushroom guy riding a frog So that looks cool Uhh (0:17:15) Kevin: heartwarming story, players accompanied by Mutzi will explore the magical world creating and building their plant sanctuary. The relaxing storyline will be filled with uplifting narration as well as unexpected twists and turns. They will make lots of friends with animals and plant creatures they encounter. (0:17:37) Kevin: So yeah, okay, it sounds like a lot, but they’re really emphasizing the de-stress and cozy feeling and whatnot, uh… (0:17:45) Kevin: I’m interested to see how this looks like. (0:17:48) Kevin: It’s definitely not your average farming game, it doesn’t look like. (0:17:54) Kevin: Just seeing, uh… (0:17:56) Kevin: From the perspective of being these little crops and things. (0:17:59) Spencer: it gives me kind of like a not to bring a prayer again but like almost like a view of a pinata vibe like you’re caring for these vegetables as like creatures (0:18:00) Kevin: Um, but, whoop. Yeah, go ahead. (0:18:03) Kevin: Yep. Yeah, it seems like that. (0:18:15) Kevin: I didn’t play Viva Pinata, and I heard it was the greatest thing on Earth, and I missed out on it. (0:18:19) Spencer: I only played it a little bit. I just… yeah. (0:18:20) Kevin: Okay. Okay, well… (0:18:24) Kevin: Regardless, people can find out more! (0:18:28) Kevin: Uh, again, October 20th. Very, very soon. (0:18:31) Kevin: Especially for the people who are listening to this. (0:18:34) Kevin: Okay, next up, we have… (0:18:38) Kevin: Ikone Island News. (0:18:41) Kevin: We have the Friend Pass release. (0:18:45) Kevin: It is out now as of recording. (0:18:47) Kevin: And so, you can… (0:18:50) Kevin: Ah! Friends… I thought it was like a battle pass. No. (0:18:54) Kevin: It is multiplayer co-op with three of your friends. You can do it online. (0:19:00) Kevin: And… Oh, what? That’s so cool! (0:19:04) Kevin: If one… only one person has the full version, everyone can play indefinitely. (0:19:10) Kevin: Um, there’s like a demo that you can find out about. (0:19:15) Kevin: Play co-op for a few hours. (0:19:17) Kevin: Uh, two hours of play, it looks like. (0:19:19) Kevin: But, uh, if you have the whole game, everyone can just play. (0:19:22) Kevin: And you don’t have to buy it or four copies to have four people playing. (0:19:28) Kevin: Uh, that is very cool. (0:19:31) Spencer: Yeah, that’s always nice when they do some kind of like, as long as just one person owns something, you know, then everyone has access to it, at least via online, you know, like connecting to each other for multiplayer or something like that. (0:19:47) Kevin: Yeah, that is cool. There is a large list of patch notes. (0:19:55) Kevin: I invite people to look at the link because they are pretty in-depth with their patch notes. (0:20:02) Kevin: But the big new other big news is that this will be launching the full 1.0 version on November 9th of this year, (0:20:14) Spencer: All right around the corner. (0:20:14) Kevin: which will only be two or three. Yeah, two or three. (0:20:17) Kevin: That’s really impressive. Wow. What a feel-good announcement. (0:20:23) Kevin: Everyone can just play together and you not having to buy the game for everyone. (0:20:31) Kevin: That’s great. And so to remind people, IKONOI ISLAND. Let me see, I don’t remember. (0:20:38) Kevin: I talk so many games, I forget which ones are which. This one is… Why is there a shark man in this? (0:20:48) Kevin: Okay, so yeah, no, it’s very Minecraft-y. Gather resources, craft tools, build your base and whatnot. (0:20:59) Kevin: So basically very Minecraft survival type game on an island. The art is cute and there’s like a shark man. (0:21:06) Kevin: That seems cool. That’s exciting though. You know, Minecraft is… or the genre, whatever you want to call it, is great for multiplayer. (0:21:16) Kevin: So this is this. (0:21:17) Kevin: It really is exciting. (0:21:18) Kevin: And yeah, November 9th, that launches on Xbox, Steam, Epic Games, and PlayStation. (0:21:26) Kevin: Yeah, alright, there you go. (0:21:30) Kevin: Good job, Ikune Island. (0:21:32) Kevin: That actually might get me to play with multiple people. (0:21:36) Kevin: Uh, that’s so cool. (0:21:39) Kevin: Next up, we have news on… (0:21:44) Kevin: Oh, do the King of Bar Mee- (0:21:47) Kevin: simulators farming simulator 22 is that a weight? (0:21:51) Kevin: Yeah, okay 22. I thought they could wind up with the years, but I guess not I’m wrong, okay Okay, so it is An expansion okay. This is an expansion that will launch on November 14th They’re adding carrots. Why were carrots not available before? (0:22:10) Spencer: That, yeah, very odd. I had to reread that to make sure that was correct, because carrots are like the most basic crop, right? In just things, in general. You got carrots, you got like potatoes, and like wheat. (0:22:17) Kevin: Uh, in life? I can’t, like, yep, yeah, yeah, that’s really surprising, um, and it’s surprising because, like, looking, all the detail they put into these other machines they’re releasing and stuff like that, um, it’s okay, but, uh… (0:22:47) Kevin: There you go, carrots, um, they’re adding a few other things, what is it, parsnips and a few other crops, but, uh, yeah, I’m curious, yeah, more machines, crops, uh, oh, and there’s, (0:22:57) Spencer: And some more machines too. (0:23:04) Kevin: yeah, there’s new machines that specifically help with these crops, like carrots, oh my gosh, like, oh, this, this is intense, like, they have real intense machine names and stuff like that. (0:23:17) Kevin: But, uh, oh, redbeat, yep, there it is. (0:23:21) Kevin: Uh, anyways, that again is November 22nd. (0:23:24) Kevin: That is the premium expansion, uh, for farming simulator. (0:23:29) Kevin: 20-20, er, just 22. (0:23:32) Kevin: Okay, next up, ah, now this is a game I do know. (0:23:35) Kevin: We have Garden Galaxy, uh, for people unfamiliar. (0:23:40) Kevin: We did an episode on it. (0:23:41) Kevin: It is, uh, you’re building a little garden, (0:23:48) Kevin: everything’s kind of randomly generated, the items you get. (0:23:52) Kevin: Um, so it’s an interesting loop of trying to expand your item and trying to get your garden and get the items you want. (0:23:59) Kevin: Um, but, uh, they’re getting an update. (0:24:02) Kevin: I am pleased to see this game, uh, continue getting support because it is a fun game. (0:24:06) Kevin: I need to go back to it probably now because on October 16th, (0:24:10) Kevin: which means when people are listening to this, it will already be out, (0:24:14) Kevin: There is getting an update with all of the other videos. (0:24:17) Kevin: Autumn themed items, we got pumpkins, jack-o’-lanterns, (0:24:22) Kevin: your fall leaves, and whatnot. (0:24:25) Kevin: So yeah, I think that’s the first set of seasonal items they’ve done like that before. (0:24:32) Kevin: Oh, no, that’s not true, they did a summer update. (0:24:34) Kevin: Either way, that actually might get me back in because I’ve been meaning to check it out. (0:24:42) Kevin: I’m sure they’ve done a lot of patches. (0:24:44) Kevin: the 10 months it’s been out. (0:24:45) Spencer: So I’m looking at this. Are you on like an island or something or are you what exactly it’s like you said Just randomly generated (0:24:50) Kevin: So, you… yeah, so it starts off… you’re basically on a floating island or set… (0:25:01) Kevin: it’s a tile-based grid-type game, right? (0:25:05) Kevin: And so it’s just floating out in space. (0:25:08) Kevin: It’s basically like an island. (0:25:10) Spencer: Okay, hence galaxy. (0:25:11) Kevin: And you’re… yeah, yeah, that’s the name, right? (0:25:14) Kevin: Yeah, Garden Galaxy. (0:25:15) Kevin: And you’re just… you’re generating items to decorate your garden, but that includes… (0:25:20) Kevin: like, new piles of terrain and land to expand your area. (0:25:27) Kevin: So yeah, it is… it’s a fascinating little game because it’s… at least when I first played it, (0:25:28) Spencer: Ah, okay. (0:25:36) Kevin: it requires some patience. (0:25:39) Kevin: I remember calling it the most frustrating, cozy, or relaxing game I’ve ever played, (0:25:45) Kevin: because the loop of how things were generated was… (0:25:49) Kevin: » Thank you. (0:25:50) Kevin: » I recommend people do check it out because it’s only like 10 bucks and it is relaxing. At least when it wasn’t frustrating. (0:26:10) Kevin: Again, that is October 16th for the autumn update. Go get your spooky garden on and whatnot. Uh, oh god, oh no. (0:26:20) Kevin: No, this next news. I don’t like it. No, that’s why I don’t like it. Go ahead. (0:26:24) Spencer: Oh, I saw it. I’m excited. You want me to announce it? (0:26:31) Spencer: Alright, well, our next thing, Animal Crossing LEGO sets. (0:26:38) Spencer: This is an audio podcast, but I’m rubbing my hands together. (0:26:41) Kevin: Can hear it I can oh we have Okay, you’re already a Lego man, okay See that’s that’s a thing right cuz I’ve managed to not dive into Lego Like it’s it’s always been there. It’s tempted me But this is the one that’s probably gonna break me I’m I’m gonna be in (0:26:43) Spencer: If there’s one thing I spend more money on than video games, it is LEGO sets. (0:26:51) Spencer: Oh yeah, I’m looking at the Rivendell set right now. (0:27:11) Kevin: So to get more specific, there’s been rumors and leaks of this and whatnot. (0:27:15) Kevin: But we have official announcements that it will be releasing on March 2024. (0:27:21) Kevin: We have a handful of sets. (0:27:27) Kevin: They are Bunny’s Outdoor Activities, Cap’n’s Island Boat Tour, (0:27:31) Kevin: Nook’s Cranny and Rosie’s House, Isabelle’s House Visit, and Julian’s Birthday Party. (0:27:36) Spencer: So, my understanding is that these sets are also modular, this is what I’ve heard through the grapevine, and they are meant to be able to essentially create your own island as if you were actually making an island in Animal Crossing. (0:27:42) Kevin: Yes. That is correct. (0:27:50) Kevin: Yes, that is correct. They come, all the sets come on this flat base or whatever and yeah, (0:27:58) Kevin: you’ll just be able to swap the positions or interlock them. You know, LEGO your way through it and whatnot. (0:28:04) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:28:04) Spencer: Yeah, I mean, they’re Legos, so, like, you know. (0:28:07) Spencer: Yes. (0:28:08) Spencer: But, uh… (0:28:10) Spencer: Which makes me feel like we can expect to see more than just what’s announced in the future. (0:28:15) Kevin: Yes, so one of the kickers the there’s minifigs right of course lego that’s one of the half the fun or whatever From what I saw they’re nothing too crazy. They all look pretty standard minifigs That look like Animal Crossing characters Okay, go ahead go ahead (0:28:26) Spencer: Yeah, now I have a gripe with these minifigs, I’m sorry, but the proportions look a little off in my opinion. (0:28:41) Spencer: When you’re playing Animal Crossing, the characters kind of look very like chibi-like and they’re very small, I guess. (0:28:47) Spencer: I mean, I guess they’re not small because your character also looks like it’s half the the size of a tree, but at the same time, everything is– (0:28:50) Kevin: Yeah. (0:28:56) Spencer: everything’s pretty trunk, you know, it’s just like you kind of have a big head, a little body, (0:29:01) Spencer: and they decided to make these regular minifigs size, so now this big head is on this kind of like elongated minifig body, and I don’t know, I think they should have gone with the shorter legs personally, or something, I just think they could have made it like half-sized minifigs. (0:29:11) Kevin: Yeah Okay I guess Yeah Well, I mean yeah, this is interesting because this is the merging of two very powerful vocal fan bases, right? (0:29:22) Spencer: I realized that would be an unpopular opinion. (0:29:39) Kevin: I will say though like I played since the original Animal Crossing right and they were even more chibi like back then they got a growth spurt (0:29:47) Spencer: Oh, for sure. (0:29:54) Kevin: So, I don’t know, maybe I’m just used to it because of that, but anyways, as for the sets, (0:30:01) Kevin: we have pricings for all of them. (0:30:05) Kevin: The most expensive one is Nook’s Cranny and the Rosy House, which is 75 bucks, which is forgiving for like, no sets, let’s say. (0:30:13) Spencer: Yeah, the LEGO sets are expensive now. (0:30:16) Spencer: So, 75 bucks for… (0:30:17) Kevin: Yeah. (0:30:19) Spencer: I mean you’re essentially getting two houses, right? (0:30:20) Kevin: Yes. More or less. (0:30:21) Spencer: Every other set is kind of more of one house, so… (0:30:24) Kevin: Yes. It’s still going to look small and I’m going to feel it’s way overpriced, but am I still going to get it? Probably. (0:30:32) Kevin: I want nookscranny. Oh, it’s not actually nookscranny. It’s one of the updated versions. It’s not the little shack. (0:30:37) Spencer: Yeah, it’s not the little shack, wow. (0:30:39) Kevin: Oh, that’s disappointing. Oh, well. (0:30:45) Kevin: But yeah, I’m really scared though, like, for myself because I’m worried. (0:30:54) Kevin: That this will be the gateway and I’m going to be buying my nookcranny set and I’m like, oh, you know what? There’s that Lego Green Hill Zone with Sonic. (0:31:03) Kevin: I could just put it right next to him, you know? Sonic could visit the cranny if I wanted to. (0:31:10) Spencer: You just, you know though, like in a year from now, they’re gonna have some, I’m gonna say almost $200 museum set, and it’s gonna have blathers, and it’s gonna have different sections of the museum, and little animals that you can put in there, little octopus, (0:31:23) Kevin: No! (0:31:29) Spencer: a little fish, a little frog, you know it’s in the pipeline. (0:31:33) Kevin: Why did you- I didn’t think about that. Why did you jinx me like this? (0:31:37) Kevin: No! That’s gonna be the best one! (0:31:40) Kevin: No! (0:31:41) Kevin: We don’t have Town Hall either. That one’s gonna be big. (0:31:41) Spencer: They go, “If it’s not in the pipeline, come hire me.” (0:31:44) Spencer: Ugh, yeah, town hall. (0:31:47) Kevin: Oh, it’s gonna hurt me. Okay. (0:31:50) Kevin: But, this is just the tip of the iceberg, because we’re talking Animal Crossing, right? (0:31:55) Kevin: There is very much room for the Animal Crossing blind bag minifigs or whatever. (0:32:01) Kevin: Um, or even furniture set. (0:32:03) Kevin: Animal Crossing has a lot of items, so I could easily dip into that. (0:32:07) Spencer: Yeah, everything in Animal Crossing could be a blind bag for this set. (0:32:08) Kevin: Right? And that terrorized me? (0:32:12) Spencer: It is a little, yeah. (0:32:15) Kevin: Oh, we don’t have a K.K. (0:32:39) Kevin: So yeah, stay tuned to see my demise as I finally dive into the LEGO world, and it all ends for me. (0:32:48) Kevin: All right, so again, that is 2024, still a few months before the end of that. (0:32:55) Kevin: Okay, you know what, I have a question for you. You say you’re into LEGO, (0:32:57) Kevin: I don’t know how hardcore you are, but do LEGOs run out of stock easily? (0:33:04) Spencer: Hear me sigh as I say that, um, trying to think. (0:33:11) Spencer: So in the past I used to just, you know, back, back in the day, you know, when they were still doing kind of just their, their own sets, which they still do. (0:33:20) Spencer: I know people complain that they have like too many licensed sets now, but they have plenty of unlicensed or, you know, only Lego sets. (0:33:29) Spencer: Um, you know, I kind of just got what was there. (0:33:32) Spencer: I was never particularly looking for any kind of (0:33:34) Spencer: set. There was this Mars like Mars set that they had that I really enjoyed that I did try to get like a couple of different sets from but nothing like you know going out of my way and stuff with the advent of the internet though and being able to look all this stuff up like I am now as an adult. There are definitely sets that do you know do just disappear because they’ve sold out of them or they just stop making them. I can’t imagine them doing this with the (0:33:46) Kevin: Okay. (0:33:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:34:04) Spencer: Animal Crossing set. You know I got to imagine that this is something that they’re planning to continue to release you know new sets for and keep updating with the old sets. For instance the Mario sets I think you can still get a lot of those you know at least if you look you might have to look a little bit harder but they’re generally like available. The set that I totally missed out on and just kick myself every time I think about it is they had a Voltron set and it came with all the different all different parts and they all like you know they all transformed into Voltron together and stuff. Yes it was and I saw that and I was like one day I’ll get it and then I just waited too long and that’s what happens but. (0:34:15) Kevin: Okay. (0:34:16) Kevin: Okay. (0:34:20) Kevin: Sure. (0:34:40) Kevin: You could, in fact, form the head. (0:34:52) Kevin: Oh, I know that feeling um well, i’m just worried because Like I said, I don’t know how the inventory issues are dealt with um in lego, but They’re drawing in the animal crossing nintendo crowd, right? We look what happened with van gogh Oh, come on Look what happened with Remember when julian was a commodity or not julian. Whatever his name was the Pat with the heterochromia (0:35:21) Spencer: Oh, yeah, yeah. (0:35:23) Kevin: And when new horizons drop If anyone could make this is the inventory problem, it would be these fans. Um, but oh boy, here we go uh but maybe the well the price isn’t even the worst for all of them, but uh We’ll see. Um I just want them to bring back by onical. That’s the only lego thing I ever really got those were cool little robot dudes (0:35:48) Spencer: Hmm, interesting. I was somewhat into Bionicle. I had quite a few, but not as much as the regular sets. (0:35:58) Kevin: All right, um, two other pieces of news album and put them on here, (0:36:04) Kevin: but I do want to mention them. (0:36:06) Kevin: I hope I, I listened to the last episode, but I hope I’m not repeating anything. (0:36:10) Kevin: Um, there have been patches dropped both for Meneko’s night market and paleo pines. (0:36:16) Kevin: Uh, last two, well, the last game I covered and the one we’re covering today, (0:36:20) Kevin: um, the Meneko’s night market. (0:36:23) Kevin: I don’t know all the details, but I’m very thankful that they’ve got these patches (0:36:28) Kevin: out quickly and, uh, and they’re already available for switch and steam versions. (0:36:34) Kevin: Um, I hope Al will find the links and maybe put them in the show notes, (0:36:39) Kevin: but, uh, go check them out. (0:36:41) Kevin: I will possibly fire up Meneko’s night market again, see how much it’s improved. (0:36:45) Kevin: Um, because I very much liked that game, just hoping for few fixes and well, (0:36:50) Kevin: they roll some out, uh, paleo pines. (0:36:53) Kevin: I read the patch notes and it’s fascinating. (0:36:57) Kevin: Uh, at least one of the items is fascinating. (0:36:59) Kevin: In general, they just kind of, you know, polished up a few edges and, and did nice things. (0:37:05) Kevin: No major updates. (0:37:06) Kevin: Um, but, uh, with that said, let’s, let’s just get on into it. (0:37:13) Kevin: Uh, let’s talk about paleo pines. (0:37:14) Spencer: Yes, paleopines. (0:37:15) Kevin: Okay. (0:37:18) Kevin: So this is available on steam switch. (0:37:22) Kevin: I don’t know what else it’s available on. (0:37:23) Spencer: I think it’s available on everything. (0:37:24) Kevin: Uh, is it? (0:37:27) Kevin: Okay. (0:37:27) Kevin: Um. (0:37:28) Kevin: So, for people who don’t know, the elevator pitch is pretty simple. (0:37:33) Kevin: It’s farming, but you have dinosaurs. (0:37:35) Kevin: Um, it’s what’s on the box, and it’s what you get. (0:37:38) Kevin: Um. (0:37:39) Spencer: It’s… exactly what you get. (0:37:39) Kevin: Yup. (0:37:44) Kevin: Alright, so let’s, before we get into the nitty gritty, what are your overall thoughts? (0:37:51) Spencer: My overall thoughts and opinions, it’s good to start off with this because I’m someone that kind of complains about things even if I like them. So I enjoyed this game. I did have a thoroughly good time myself playing this game. There are plenty of things I would change about it but ultimately this is probably a game I will come back to I might even play it after we stop talking to be quite honest. (0:38:14) Kevin: Okay, I probably will see [laugh] (0:38:17) Spencer: yeah the last episode I was on (0:38:21) Spencer: I talked about parkasaurus I don’t think I’ve touched that game since we stopped talking about it yeah but this game this game was definitely enjoyable it’s got a lot of charm you know using the dinosaurs for farming is different I guess I mean I’m not as big of a farming game player has you know you guys are so maybe this is just exactly the same you just skinned as dinosaurs but it was fun (0:38:25) Kevin: Hahaha, well there you go. (0:38:39) Kevin: » Yes, right, yeah, yep. (0:38:51) Spencer: it has a collection element to it very much kind of like Pokemon or something like that you know so it scratches a lot of different itches for a lot of different people and I feel like you can get yourself lost without necessarily doing the main kind of quest so to speak yeah there are missions that you do too in this game and you know I spent plenty of time just fumbling around doing my own thing. (0:38:57) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:39:21) Spencer: You know, ultimately that’s kind of what I like in games like this, so yeah, I had a great time playing it, great, great might be a little exaggerating, so yeah, what did you think? (0:39:30) Kevin: Mm-hmm, okay All right, um So overall it’s a definite thumbs up and recommend for me This is hard for me because I love dinosaurs very much I Was a dinosaur kid growing up. I watched Jurassic Park when I was little dinosaurs were my Pokemon before Pokemon and (0:39:57) Kevin: And so, obviously I’m heavily biased toward a game that… (0:40:00) Kevin: …explores that, but as someone who is relatively well-versed in farming games, I still think it’s enjoyable. (0:40:11) Kevin: All the points you made, I agree with. (0:40:15) Kevin: So, let’s get into the… (0:40:19) Kevin: But, overall though, I would recommend this to people to try out. (0:40:23) Kevin: If you enjoy farming games, I think there’s a good chance you’ll enjoy this. (0:40:27) Kevin: And if you enjoy dinosaurs, you will probably also- (0:40:30) Kevin: enjoy this. (0:40:31) Spencer: you might even enjoy it even more than if you were just a farming game person quite honestly. (0:40:32) Kevin: I actually agree, yes, because I do think the dinosaurs are done really well. (0:40:40) Kevin: Um, but okay, let’s start into this specific. (0:40:43) Kevin: So, I have three sections here. (0:40:48) Kevin: The bad, the good, and the ugly. (0:40:50) Spencer: OK. (0:40:51) Kevin: So let’s start with the bad. What complaints do you have? (0:40:51) Spencer: Complaints. (0:40:56) Spencer: So the biggest thing– my complaints are small things that add up, right? (0:41:04) Spencer: Accessing things. (0:41:05) Spencer: For instance, if you’re on a mounted dinosaur, (0:41:09) Spencer: for whatever reason– unless I’m just horrible at this game– (0:41:12) Spencer: you cannot access or interact with things other than the dinosaur’s interaction. (0:41:18) Spencer: So let’s say you start off with the parasaur. (0:41:20) Spencer: That’s just your dinosaur that you start off with. (0:41:21) Kevin: Right? (0:41:23) Kevin: Right (0:41:23) Spencer: And each dinosaur has a skill. (0:41:27) Spencer: They can clear debris, which is what the parasaur can do. (0:41:30) Spencer: And it can sprint. Two actions. (0:41:32) Spencer: But if you’re not doing that, you can’t interact with anything else. (0:41:38) Spencer: If you want to talk to someone, you have to get off your dinosaur. (0:41:41) Spencer: If you want to access your storage, you have to get off your dinosaur. (0:41:44) Spencer: Which just blows me away. I was like, (0:41:46) Spencer: “Come on, the person’s right there. Just let me talk to them. (0:41:48) Spencer: to them. Why do I have to get off my dinosaur? (0:41:49) Kevin: Yep, yep, absolutely, um Yeah, I I want to put just a little side note, um since we’re getting into it, uh Spencer and I are dinosaurs or nerds so we will be using dinosaur names Apologies if you if you listener might not be familiar. I invite you to look them up because dinosaurs are cool (0:41:50) Spencer: So, that would be one thing I would, you know, developers, if you’re listening, patch that, please. (0:42:17) Spencer: Indeed, and then you’ll see the name and then you’ll be like, “How do I pronounce that?” (0:42:21) Spencer: And quite honestly, we probably won’t pronounce all of them right, but it’s fun and trying. (0:42:25) Kevin: yep yes okay but um but yes that’s that’s a good point um that is annoying how you can’t talk to someone uh or gather certain points gather certain materials off foraging points and whatnot while on a dinosaur uh at the very yeah no judge say that I can kind of understand the the foraging part maybe you’re high up on a t-rex but come on (0:42:44) Spencer: That’s correct, because some… Oh, sorry, go ahead. (0:42:55) Kevin: can talk to someone while mounted on a t-rex I can say hey (0:42:59) Spencer: Yeah, I don’t really understand the decision, to be quite honest. (0:43:05) Kevin: Yeah, well, there’s a few things I don’t 100% understand, like, so there’s a handful of little things. I don’t know if they all add up to me something major, but like, one of my biggest gripes is inventory stuff. You can get big numbers of items, right? Like, you can get hundreds and hundreds of pieces of wood. (0:43:28) Kevin: Well, when you want to move between your bag and your storage or whatever, you don’t have the option of saying, “Okay, take out…” (0:43:35) Kevin: …20 or 30. You can only do the entire amount or half of it. And that’s frustrating. (0:43:38) Spencer: Yes, I was gonna ask this, I wasn’t sure if I was just like, not getting- (0:43:44) Spencer: Was there a tutorial I missed? Or if this is like, you know, just, but yeah, it’s only stacks, right? (0:43:47) Kevin: nope, or at least, I missed it too then. (0:43:51) Kevin: Yeah, you can, and what’s odd is, it exists because when you sell things at the trader or whatever, (0:43:52) Spencer: Like, I was like- (0:43:57) Kevin: you can select exactly how many you want to sell. (0:44:01) Kevin: But that’s the only time. (0:44:02) Spencer: Yeah, no, but then it’s and it gets even more deep than that because it’s Inventory management from your storage to inventory is only stacks, right? So like you have 300 wood in your storage and then you click on it and it’ll put all 300 in there but in stacks of a hundred and then now you have to go back in return 200 stacks, so you only have one stack and (0:44:23) Kevin: Yup, yup, exactly. (0:44:29) Spencer: Then when you go to sell that wood, here’s what get (0:44:32) Spencer: me. You go to sell that wood, and then you can select individually. You can select like I only sell two wood, right? And they do have a button for min and max. So like I want to sell the whole stack of wood, but they don’t have a button to increment it in tens. Also, which I feel like is something like, yeah, that really, that whole thing needs a lot of work. (0:44:56) Kevin: Yeah, it is wild and again, there’s even the trading like said it’s still missing that stacks of 10 which would be nice But the fact that that’s the only place where you can do Individual counts of whatnot. It’s baffling to me Let’s see what what other little complaints can you think of? (0:45:20) Spencer: So, I don’t know if this would be a little complaint. (0:45:25) Spencer: I don’t know where this falls on your good, bad, and ugly. (0:45:25) Kevin: Hehe. (0:45:29) Spencer: I will say there were a lot of things I was finding out about the game. (0:45:34) Spencer: I didn’t get, I’ll be honest, I didn’t get like probably end game, is there an end game? (0:45:39) Spencer: I don’t really know. (0:45:41) Kevin: I think there is. I mean, there’s the main quest. You have to find where the rest of the parasaurs are. (0:45:42) Spencer: There is, right? (0:45:44) Spencer: Yeah. (0:45:45) Spencer: Yeah. (0:45:46) Spencer: Yeah, you know, like I said earlier, I kind of… (0:45:50) Spencer: just ended up doing my own thing, which is, you know, it is what it is. (0:45:52) Kevin: Yeah. (0:45:53) Kevin: Uh huh. (0:45:55) Spencer: That’s kind of how it’s designed in the game. (0:45:57) Spencer: But so there’s a lot of things that I feel like I was finding out kind of on my own without… (0:46:06) Spencer: that would have been better maybe explained, you know, like I’ll be honest. (0:46:12) Spencer: I didn’t realize that holding what was the RZ was sprint for some of those dinosaurs. (0:46:18) Spencer: I was puttin’ around that whole area, and it was taking me forever. (0:46:18) Kevin: Yep Yeah, ha ha ha ha oh no Oh No Um, oh, that’s raw. I agree with you Um, this is a complaint I have about many games because I think it’s a critical thing to be clear and explain yourself well and whatnot Um, I am struggling to think of I had a specific example, but I can’t think of it right now (0:46:23) Spencer: It would take like a half day just to get across the place. (0:46:47) Kevin: The sprinting thing there is a (0:46:48) Kevin: prompt on the bottom of the screen, but if you don’t pay it, they don’t call it out or anything. (0:46:52) Kevin: So it’s easy to miss, because there’s other prompts that are there, (0:46:56) Kevin: and the sprinting prompt is added when you’re on the right dinosaur, (0:47:00) Kevin: but it’s not there when you’re not on it, so it’s easily missable. (0:47:04) Kevin: possible. (0:47:06) Spencer: Oh, and so here’s the thing with the sprinting thing, too. (0:47:12) Spencer: If you click on, I believe it’s just R, (0:47:15) Spencer: your character will auto run in that direction. (0:47:16) Kevin: Wait, what? (0:47:17) Kevin: I didn’t know that! (0:47:19) Kevin: She- what?! (0:47:19) Spencer: Yes, there’s an auto run button. (0:47:21) Kevin: Oh my goodness. (0:47:22) Spencer: So I was clicking auto run, and I was thinking it was the sprint half the time. (0:47:22) Kevin: Oh, there you go. (0:47:24) Kevin: Oh, case in point. (0:47:32) Spencer: And I was like, this doesn’t look any faster. (0:47:35) Spencer: I guess I don’t need to hold the button. (0:47:36) Spencer: I feel like there’s a lot of things that get fed to you at either inopportune moments or just as far as information goes. (0:47:50) Spencer: You’re just kind of like, “Huh, I could have used that information like three days ago.” (0:47:54) Kevin: Yup, there was oh the So there is I remember my example. Um, there is a help option in the pause menu and it does have some tutorials in there It doesn’t really let you know that they’re there Which is a shame because a number of them are very helpful. They explain how to use your tools The one I wanted to mentioned was the soil we’ll get into it into it in a bit but essentially how to properly fertilize and till the soil and stuff like that. (0:48:29) Kevin: That information, I didn’t realize how it worked until I happened to find it in the tutorial items in the help menu. (0:48:37) Kevin: It would have been nice if that had been called out earlier. (0:48:40) Spencer: It’s funny that you mention the soil because it wasn’t until only the other day that I was, again, I was just thumbing through the profiles of the vegetables and I was like, (0:48:51) Spencer: “Huh, they really want you to crop rotate in this game, don’t they?” (0:48:53) Kevin: Yep, yep. (0:48:55) Spencer: That would have been useful to know before I planted tons of vegetables in random areas. (0:49:01) Kevin: Yep, um, absolutely. (0:49:04) Kevin: Um, so yeah, that is a complaint, like I said, I have about many games, just lack of clarity or not explaining things well. (0:49:12) Kevin: Uh, one hopefully that can get updated because that’s not impossible to fix. (0:49:17) Kevin: Just add some more prompts at certain points, so. (0:49:19) Spencer: No. (0:49:19) Spencer: Yeah, and I will give them credit, right? (0:49:20) Kevin: Fingers crossed we get those patches. (0:49:25) Spencer: Like some games you sit through tutorials and they are like, you know, some omnipotent someone or other talking at you going, “Hit A to use the ox.” (0:49:31) Kevin: Yep, yep Yep Yeah, it does it is not very handhold be not at all you Yeah, that’s One of the pros in my book that it doesn’t really put any pressure on you in almost any way (0:49:35) Spencer: You know, and then you’re like, “Okay, like I get it.” (0:49:37) Spencer: And then you have to sit there for like an hour. (0:49:39) Spencer: Right? (0:49:40) Spencer: This game really does kind of let you play the game almost right away. (0:49:58) Kevin: And I’ll get into that later when we talk about quests I think in the more (0:50:01) Kevin: detail but one final item I wanted to add in the bad list well I guess this kind of goes in the ugly I’m not the biggest fan of the art style of the game so okay well let me be more specific I like the dinosaurs the dinosaurs look great they’re they’re very cutesy and the way they’re presented in this game where people are just hanging out they’re your pals and working with them (0:50:16) Spencer: Really? (0:50:31) Kevin: and they live on your farm they’re not intimidating or scary I think that was managed really well I think that works well and I think it’s fantastic my part problem is the people right the people also have this very cutesy art style and it’s this might just be a very personal thing but it is really (0:50:48) Spencer: Okay, okay. (0:51:01) Kevin: looks like a Disney Junior show basically that’s the way I describe it in fact I watch Bluey right so I’ve seen other ads for Disney Junior shows there is one actually called Dino Ranch and it looks a lot like this yeah (0:51:07) Spencer: Yeah, I mean (0:51:18) Spencer: Yeah, the people are, I mean, it’s an art style, that’s for sure. (0:51:24) Spencer: It’s a design choice that they made. (0:51:27) Kevin: Yeah, and everything is very saccharine, like very… (0:51:31) Kevin: Happy… (0:51:33) Kevin: No one gets angry or there’s big problems or anything like that. (0:51:38) Kevin: There’s a character who says “zippity” and it just feels very kid show… (0:51:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:51:47) Spencer: Yeah, well, eh. So there’s a couple characters. One that stood out to me as Pippin. (0:51:54) Spencer: He does kind of get a little grumpy. (0:51:54) Kevin: Yeah They they’re actually in be non-binary Which I just like a thumbs up. That’s all right. No, but I just thumbs up to the Devs for throwing that in there right and I’ll have Pippin Pippin’s a little bit of a gremlin Go ahead Oh, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that that. (0:51:57) Spencer: Oh, sorry. (0:52:10) Spencer: Ah, yeah, but they get a little like, onry about things if you ask them to make like a, they make these, yeah, they make these like treats that, that’s basically how you tame the dinosaurs and they have like very specific, “Oh, it’s my family recipe, like don’t, we don’t screw with it” and then you ask them to make other treats and then they kind of get all upset about it instead of like, “Ah, fine, take your, take your

Al and Kev talk about Mineko's Night Market Also, we talk about Stardew Valley 1.6, the recently teased Lord of the Rings cottagecore game, and a number of recent release date announcements. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:42: What Have We Been Up To 00:15:56: News 00:45:50: Mineko’s Night Market 01:32:52: Outro Links Mineko’s Night Market Release Dates Mineko Plush Coral Island PS5 Critter Crops Delay Sun Down Survivors Update Orange Season Update Travellers Rest Update To Pixelia Kickstarter Stardew Valley 1.6 Sneak Peek Stardew Valley Joja Parrot Tales of the Shire Teaser Tales of the Shire Site Mineko’s Night Market Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al And I am playing the neko’s night market as we speak Fantastic we are gonna have so much to talk about this game. I think it’s gonna be (0:00:36) Kevin: I’m Kevin. (0:00:37) Kevin: Um, excuse me, I believe that is Wormburger’s Night Market? (0:00:47) Kevin: Uh, you think the game that’s been in development for eight years and has been my most anticipated game of like two years running? [laughs] (0:01:00) Al: Funny because like yeah, so like this podcast I’ve been going for like nearly five years now, right? (0:01:04) Al: And this game had already been announced four years before the podcast started So quite a while Did neko just poop on the ground It just just sat on the ground and stood up and then it was a garden block (0:01:12) Kevin: 2015 baby that’s that’s wild like I don’t I didn’t (0:01:25) Kevin: Yeah, if that’s possible, yeah. (0:01:26) Al: I think Niko just pooped on the ground. (0:01:30) Al: To give me somewhere to plant, all right. Well let’s see what happens with that. (0:01:34) Al: We’re gonna talk about the Niko’s Night Market, because somehow we managed to play this game in the five days since it came out. (0:01:43) Al: Yeah, we’re gonna talk about it. Before that, we’ve got a bunch of news to talk about. (0:01:43) Kevin: Yeah, but I played a lot so I have things to talk about (0:01:57) Al: there’s stuff we need to talk about, there’s stuff we definitely need to talk about. (0:01:58) Kevin: Is there I don’t I don’t I don’t know Not really I like going in blind [laugh] (0:02:00) Al: Have you not looked through the news? (0:02:02) Al: Oh Kevin, right, that’s fine, let’s go in blind. (0:02:05) Al: Most of it is pretty small, pretty quick, still good, but we’ve got two really chunky bits of news at the end that we need to talk about. (0:02:11) Kevin: Wait, we haven’t talked about that one yet? (0:02:13) Al: We have not talked about that yet. (0:02:14) Kevin: I- (0:02:14) Kevin: Oh my gosh, okay, we do have things to talk about, all right. (0:02:17) Al: Yep, we have big stuff to talk about. (0:02:20) Kevin: I know- I like how you know exactly what I’m looking at. (0:02:22) Al: Well, of course, of course I know. (0:02:26) Al: So we’ve recorded the last episode, I think like the day before that news came out. (0:02:30) Al: Um, was it me and Cody? I think it was. Uh, we, we’d recorded really early that week and then they came out with our news and that was really frustrating. So anyway. (0:02:31) Kevin: was it okay yes yes I didn’t know it was it good good (0:02:39) Al: Um, uh, first of all, though, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:46) Kevin: Um, okay, so in the Good good old me decided to do a whole bunch of things before Monneko dropped so you know the Pokemon DLC has been out for a minute, there’s been a lot of talk and So I finally gave in and I started playing Pokemon, but I wanted to play a good one. So I’m playing sword and shield I started a nuzlocke (0:03:22) Kevin: And it’s it’s a fun one to nuzlock through Because there’s so many a wide variety of encounters and and It’s surprisingly challenging at times. There’s there’s some heavy hitters in the game One going back to that Jen Like all all joking aside I I This is a subjective opinion, but I think it looks better (0:03:31) Al: Mmm, yes. (0:03:52) Kevin: And then scarlet violet like maybe not technically there’s probably It’s… (0:03:54) Al: I mean, I don’t think I disagree with that. I mean, I’m definitely one of the Scarlet and Violet enjoyers and defenders, but I don’t think that as a game it looks better than Sword and Shield. Definitely not. But I think personally that’s generally a problem with open world games. I don’t think that any of them look amazing. Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have some moments where you’re like, “Wow.” But those are very few (0:04:09) Kevin: Yeah yeah. (0:04:19) Kevin: Yeah. (0:04:20) Kevin: Yes. (0:04:24) Kevin: You’re- you’re ner- yep, you’re right. (0:04:24) Al: and most of the time it’s just the same rocks and grass again. I think that is just a problem with them. So yes, I agree. (0:04:29) Kevin: Yeah. (0:04:31) Kevin: That’s fair. Yeah, no, that’s- that’s- I think that’s accurate. (0:04:35) Kevin: Um, so yeah, it is an uphill battle, I think, in that sense for Scarlet Violet, but… (0:04:41) Kevin: Even stuff like just the color palettes, I think they really, really pop in, uh, Sword and Shield. (0:04:43) Al: Oh yeah, especially Balonia. Amazing, amazing town. Just gorgeous, love it. (0:04:46) Kevin: Um… (0:04:50) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, the neon mushroom town, it’s awesome, yep, yep. (0:04:58) Kevin: And also one other comment, just like, again, looking back. (0:05:02) Kevin: The gym battles are just so good in Sword and Shield, (0:05:09) Kevin: like just this whole spectacle of a stadium battle and the chanting, (0:05:11) Al: Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. The music. (0:05:15) Kevin: which, you know, actually fits in on like Scarlet Violet. (0:05:20) Kevin: It’s so bombastic and thrilling, and again, (0:05:25) Kevin: just comparing to Scarlet Violet, like, because of the freedom, (0:05:30) Kevin: I don’t know, they just, it wasn’t as memorable maybe, but again, (0:05:35) Kevin: that’s something subjective, but point B, ultimately, (0:05:38) Kevin: Sword and Shield is still really good, really fun, (0:05:41) Kevin: and I’m enjoying going through one of those luck. (0:05:44) Kevin: Well, I was before Monetco dropped, um, aside from that, (0:05:49) Kevin: I have had a big fighting game, Inch, um, so I dusted off a game called Skullgirls! (0:05:56) Kevin: Um, are you familiar with this at all, Al? (0:05:58) Kevin: Okay, so Skullgirls was originally released in 2013-2014, (0:06:07) Kevin: and they are still developing new stuff for it. Um, not a sequel, like the same game. (0:06:14) Kevin: It’s wild, um, it was, uh, it’s no- (0:06:19) Kevin: notable in the fighting game community for a couple of reasons. (0:06:23) Kevin: One, I mean, it’s a good game, for fighting game reasons, um, (0:06:26) Kevin: but aside from that, um, it’s all hand-drawn art, so it looks really good. (0:06:32) Kevin: Um, it has like a very stylistic art deco thing going on with a lot of its environments and settings. (0:06:39) Kevin: Um, and as the name implies, Skullgirls, um, at least originally, the original eight, (0:06:46) Kevin: I believe we’re all female fighters, um, which was you know, obviously not the norm in gaming in general, right? (0:06:54) Kevin: Um, it’s an all female cast, um, and they’ve done rounds of DLCs since then. (0:07:00) Kevin: Um, I think it’s going to be up to 18 by the end of this year. (0:07:04) Kevin: Um, I think there’s two males, but the rest are all females. (0:07:10) Kevin: Um, well, I mean, there’s a robot female and an alien monster thing. (0:07:16) Kevin: Um, but so, you know, um, take that how you will. (0:07:20) Kevin: Uh, it’s, it’s dynamic. (0:07:22) Kevin: It’s fun. (0:07:22) Kevin: It’s like not even fighting game or not. (0:07:26) Kevin: It’s, it’s just very good writing comical and then vibrant. (0:07:31) Kevin: Um, so yeah, skull girls to anyone who enjoys fighting games. (0:07:34) Kevin: That’s a hearty recommendation. (0:07:36) Kevin: It’s basically out on anything and everything. (0:07:38) Kevin: Um, uh, but, uh, aside from, yeah, so those were the two things I did. (0:07:42) Kevin: And then, uh, Meneco Wednesday came and it’s been all Meneco since then. (0:07:47) Kevin: What about you? (0:07:50) Al: Yeah, well, I mean, I think basically Maneko is the only game I’ve been playing this week. (0:07:56) Al: Maneko, Maneko, Maneko. (0:07:59) Al: I did play some more Pokémon, so I think I got my… (0:08:03) Al: I can’t remember where I was when we last talked, or when I last said it on the podcast, (0:08:08) Al: but I have done… (0:08:10) Al: I’ve completed the DLC on both games. (0:08:14) Al: I decided just to do… (0:08:16) Al: So my scarlet was like basically I hadn’t done anything in it. (0:08:20) Al: So I did the DLC without having done any of the badges. (0:08:23) Al: And then I was like, I’m just going to do all the badges. (0:08:26) Al: So I just did everything on that one. (0:08:27) Al: So I’ve now completed that. (0:08:27) Kevin: Right at least it’s fast to do it unlike other Pokemon games you can just knock them out (0:08:29) Al: And then, yeah, certainly once you’ve got everything. (0:08:36) Al: And then what else did I do? (0:08:39) Al: I did the DLC on my scarlet, my violet as well. (0:08:43) Al: And I completed the decks on that. (0:08:46) Al: And there’s a couple of side quests as well in the DLC. (0:08:49) Al: I did those as well. (0:08:50) Al: And yeah, just a bunch of Pokemon stuff in there. (0:08:56) Kevin: Have you- have you not gotten a bit tired of Scarlet Violet after doing it like three four times? (0:09:03) Al: times, yeah. I mean the story, yeah, sure, right? Like, the story bit is not fun. I still enjoy playing those games. Like, I still enjoy the core loop of those games. I still enjoy collecting Pokémon, blah, blah, blah. I think I have decided that I’m not going to do the new Professor Oak challenge that I suggested. I think that’s probably going a bit far. And if I want to do a Professor Oak challenge. (0:09:30) Kevin: until the second DLC drops. (0:09:33) Al: Well, I was going to wait until that because if you’re going to do it, then do it all the way, right? (0:09:39) Al: But then I was like, actually, if I want to do it, there’s so many games I haven’t done a Professor Oak challenge of, (0:09:43) Al: just do another one. (0:09:45) Al: I’m thinking about maybe doing Legends Arceus 1, for example, which could be fun, (0:09:53) Al: because I don’t have a Legends Arceus save file just now. (0:09:56) Al: I was thinking when you were talking about Nuzlockes, maybe it would be interesting as a Nuzlock, (0:10:03) Al: because obviously you’re not using Pokemon, right? (0:10:05) Al: So they’re not going to die, but you can die in that game. (0:10:07) Al: You can get knocked out in that game. (0:10:09) Kevin: Oh. (0:10:09) Al: So doing like a no death Arceus run, that could be interesting. (0:10:10) Kevin: No. (0:10:16) Al: Yeah, that’s probably about games. (0:10:19) Al: I mean, Pokemon Go, obviously, but that’s probably about it with games. (0:10:23) Al: I have, however, been watching a couple of things. (0:10:25) Al: I’ve been watching X-Men 92 and the run-up to the new X-Men 97 coming out next year. (0:10:30) Al: And I. (0:10:30) Kevin: Alright, how’s that been? (0:10:33) Al: It’s it’s good fun. I’m surprised at how like quickly and succinctly they’re getting through X-Men story lines like Like in the first season they do like like five or six big X-Men stories Like just that’s it. Those ones are done now and you’re like, oh my word, right? Wow, that was fast Yeah Well, it’s (0:10:50) Kevin: Yeah, this was prime 90s Saturday morning cartoon stuff, so like, there’s no time for plots or build up. (0:10:58) Kevin: Go do your enemy of the week. (0:11:01) Al: That’s the thing and then there’s no (0:11:01) Kevin: You got toys to sell, man! (0:11:03) Al: There’s no filler episodes that are all action all the time So it will be interesting to see where they go because there’s still four seasons to go Just I’ve just finished the first season. So I’ve got four more to go and I’m like I feel like they’re running out of stories by now Although I do believe there is a crossover with the 90s spider-man as well that I’ll need to watch at some point Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I know but that’s my I need to watch that as well right because it’s a crossover (0:11:03) Kevin: The- (0:11:20) Kevin: There is, but that is under the spine. (0:11:31) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I If I assure you it does not matter Well, good luck with that because I’m sure it didn’t matter to the writers or whatever I will I will say like I (0:11:33) Al: I haven’t figured out where it lies in the timeline. (0:11:37) Al: I know it doesn’t matter. I know. I know it doesn’t matter, Kevin, but it matters to me. (0:11:56) Kevin: Was still pretty young when that X-Men first aired so I watched some of it (0:12:00) Al: Yes, in 1992, yes. (0:12:01) Kevin: but Yes, you know the year I was born I might be older than me So I didn’t watch it I Missed the boat a little on that one. I didn’t I watched it but just not like everything right but it’s still very much like many people was very iconic informative in my What I think of the X-Men right like that’s the theme the colors all the looks (0:12:05) Al: I was also quite young. (0:12:31) Kevin: It’s still my favorite beast of all time Yeah, but good stuff good stuff (0:12:40) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:12:41) Al: And then I also watched for the first time Scott Pilgrim versus the World, (0:12:46) Al: the film that is, the live action films. (0:12:46) Kevin: Okay, I have not watched this tell me tell me Wait we’re talking the live-action right? Yes. Yes. Okay, cuz the animated one’s not out yet Yes, okay. Yes, that’s right. Okay Okay, I hear a lot of love for this movie thing (0:12:48) Al: I thought it was really good. (0:12:50) Al: I think it does a good job. (0:12:52) Al: Like, obviously live action. (0:12:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:12:55) Al: The animated one, it’s not, it’s not a, yeah, and it’s a series, I believe. (0:12:58) Al: It’s not a film. (0:13:00) Al: But so like. (0:13:02) Al: I think, I think, yeah, so I think a lot of people like it and a lot of people (0:13:10) Al: thought it was fine. (0:13:11) Al: I will say that live action is difficult to do, like, a good kind of comic bookie style film, like most, most live action comic book stuff doesn’t try and be comic bookie, right? (0:13:25) Al: But Scott Pilgrim definitely does. (0:13:29) Al: And I think they did it really well. (0:13:31) Al: I think it works like that. (0:13:32) Al: Like you, it definitely feels like a comic book film. (0:13:35) Al: It’s like, you know how Into the Spider-Verse feels like a comic book film. (0:13:40) Kevin: Yes. (0:13:40) Al: It’s not live action, but it feels comic bookie, whereas all the other ones really just feel like superhero stuff, right? (0:13:40) Kevin: Yes. (0:13:43) Kevin: Yes, yes, I know. (0:13:46) Al: It’s, it, it feels like that. (0:13:48) Al: It feels, it feels like they wanted it to feel like a comic book. (0:13:52) Al: And I think it works really well. (0:13:54) Al: I think there are a few things in the story that feel a bit odd, but that just might be me being a bit weird around it. (0:14:01) Al: I’m not sure whether it’s, because I’ve not, I’ve not read the original comic run of this, right? (0:14:07) Al: So I don’t know whether it tells it some of the bits in it. (0:14:10) Al: In a better way, or whether I’m just kind of being a bit weird with it. I don’t know. (0:14:11) Kevin: Mm-hmm Yeah, okay. All right, that’s cool Yeah, I might watch it just speak for the animated series because the animated series looks very impressive (0:14:15) Al: But I enjoyed it. It was good. (0:14:25) Al: Yes Well, that was the other thing that was the other reason why I was watching it I was like, I know I want to watch this at some point You know what why not now, you know before the animated series comes out would be a good idea (0:14:35) Kevin: Yep, yep, all right, that’s good. (0:14:43) Al: I mean bits and pieces here and there. I’m about to start the newest series of Star Trek Strange. (0:14:56) Al: There’s a lot to watch. What can I say? Have you been watching Ahsoka? Of course, as well. (0:15:01) Al: I’ve been watching Ahsoka, which I’ve been enjoying. And Loki starts this week. (0:15:07) Kevin: Oh, I i’ve got to catch up on stuff before I watch loki like I mean like the required reading. I don’t watch ant man No, I don’t think so either ant man Yes Yes, i’ve watched the original ones. I watch one division watch loki season one. So just ant man Um, but I am going to do it because yeah, I do I do too which really means yeah I just need to watch ant man, um, which uh, but i’m excited for because it looks good. Um (0:15:12) Al: I don’t think there’s a lot of required reading. (0:15:16) Al: Yeah, I’d say Ant-Man, Lokey and Ant-Man, and presumably you’ve watched WandaVision. (0:15:22) Al: Yeah. (0:15:25) Al: I suspect that’s all of it. (0:15:38) Kevin: Owen wilson’s really good in it. And so is uh, (0:15:40) Kevin: Tom loki whatever his name is it’ll it’ll stand yes tom tom loki son. Um (0:15:43) Al: Tom Hiddleston and we’ve got Kehuquan coming in as well and his character looks very fun. (0:15:54) Kevin: Yep. (0:15:54) Kevin: Alright. (0:15:55) Al: Yeah. Awesome. Well, should we talk about some news? (0:15:56) Kevin: I guess so. (0:16:00) Kevin: Hey, you wanna talk about Moneko first though? (0:16:01) Al: No, no, I do not. Let’s talk about some news. (0:16:03) Kevin: Yeah, and what’s our first news item? (0:16:07) Al: Uh, oh yeah. Oh, I hadn’t looked yet. (0:16:13) Al: I wrote all this up like four days ago. So Maneko, there’s some Maneko’s night market news. (0:16:21) Kevin: Yeah. (0:16:23) Al: So the Xbox and PlayStation versions, we’ve got dates for them now. They’re coming out on the 26th of October and the physical Switch and PS5 versions are coming the 27th of October. (0:16:36) Kevin: Uh, is it? I didn’t realize it’s already on, is it on PS5 I assume? (0:16:40) Kevin: Or wait, no, no, sorry. I’m, no, you just said that. (0:16:40) Al: No, no, so that’s the PS. Please, it’s Xbox and- (0:16:43) Al: PlayStation versions, yeah. But I think, I think, I think the PlayStation version is for PS4 and PS5, (0:16:44) Kevin: My mistake. Yes. (0:16:50) Al: but the physical version is just PS5. Well, on Switch, obviously. (0:16:54) Al: So there is a PS4 version of the game, but not physical, if that’s clear. (0:16:59) Kevin: um yeah sure it’s look by the end of october it’s going to be everywhere that’s the main but you can get it on switch or pc (0:17:08) Al: You can. You can. (0:17:10) Al: And we have it covered because you got Switch. (0:17:12) Al: I got it on PC and played it on Steam. (0:17:14) Kevin: Yup, and if that’s not enough physical for you you can get a physical manneco Well, I think you can because I’m clicking on the link and it’s not working. I don’t know why Okay, anyways, um Okay, they’re doing Okay The manneco people are doing a plush (0:17:15) Al: Oh boy. (0:17:20) Al: You can. (0:17:23) Al: Yeah, there’s a new link. (0:17:27) Al: I’ve got a new link here as far as… (0:17:29) Al: Don’t worry, it still exists. (0:17:31) Al: There you go. There’s your new link. (0:17:39) Kevin: Run of manneco. It’s a good-looking plug. It is by the it is by the (0:17:39) Al: Is that good looking plush? It’s really detailed. (0:17:43) Al: Yeah. (0:17:44) Kevin: Company called make ship which I am familiar with this is basically what they do. They do limited runs of plushies you know even They did one for Baron breakfast and I missed it I’m so sad But that’s the that’s a kicker right that it is limited. I think turn it boy had like two plushies through that but anyways So yeah make ship rise of the time recording 20 days when it comes out That’ll probably even more like two weeks left on the campaign (0:17:47) Al: Yeah, they’re doing the ooblets ones as well, I think, and stuff. (0:18:14) Kevin: So check it out if you want. It’s $30 maybe a little pricey But if you love an echo like I love an echo It’s probably worth it because you will probably never ever see any mother physical manneco birch like this again Not yet, but I will so pay day when it gets But yes and minico’s art works really well with plush I think like the the the style (0:18:40) Al: Yeah, I’m just, I’m really impressed with how detailed it is, right? Like you’ve got the eye detail, the hair detail, and the clothing detail, the ear, the backpack, it’s just, it’s all so great. (0:18:44) Kevin: Yeah, got the little mark under the eye, yeah Yeah make ship I have had make ship products before and they are quality products and yes the detail is as good as You’d hope or want or the the creators want whatever and it’s a good quality plush a decent size to not one of those tiny little things (0:19:12) Kevin: Okay, so yeah, that’s Minneko (0:19:20) Kevin: So October 20th, roughly? (0:19:22) Al: Yeah, it does actually say that on the page, you don’t have to count it. (0:19:23) Kevin: Yeah, 19th. (0:19:26) Al: If you scroll down a little bit, it shows you the date. It’s got a timeline. (0:19:29) Kevin: um okay well there you go there the look the links on the show notes click on there yeah that’s the only thing right they take forever with these limited run things but understandably so yeah oh yeah you’re oh gosh no no no that’s too close 2024 is a year away no I know I went into lone the home depot the other day and there was all the christmas decor (0:19:30) Al: “Production starts 20th of October. Shipman estimated January 13th.” (0:19:38) Al: That’s not too bad. That’s not too bad. November, December, that’s three months. (0:19:48) Al: Christmas is less than 100 days. (0:19:59) Kevin: before october that’s the norm what what else is you know what else is october (0:20:06) Al: We’ve got, we’ve got Coral Island have announced their PS5 version is coming on the 9th of October. (0:20:14) Al: I will say, you know I love a conspiracy around dates. This is a suspicious date. (0:20:20) Al: This is suspiciously close because the next update for Coral Island is the 1.0 update. (0:20:27) Al: Just saying. Now we don’t know when that’s coming, but all I’m saying is they haven’t said the PS5 (0:20:37) Kevin: once you switch there’s no going back or wait oh they mean for version well either way that still sounds very uh and they have the wean (0:20:52) Kevin: There’s the art right there. It has the merfolk in it. It’s all that looks like a 1.0 or Like a game case cover Is it I don’t know I’m (0:20:59) Al: I mean, I think that’s the same artist they’ve been using for ages, but yeah, yeah, pretty sure I’ve had pretty sure I had that wallpaper on my phone for six months. (0:21:09) Al: Yeah, so we’ll see. We’ll see whether I’m right or wrong. It might be too soon after the most recent update, but they also could have been working on both of them at the same time. We’ll find out in like a week, because that’s like a week away. (0:21:27) Al: Next we have Crater crops have been delayed to the end of the day. (0:21:29) Al: We have so many more to delay. Keep coming with your delays please. (0:21:35) Al: There’s too many games. We still have like 30 games listed that’s coming out this year. Go and delay them please. (0:21:46) Al: Would you mean no? Man alive, Kevin. (0:21:49) Al: That’s all right. It’s all right. You’ve got two weeks till you need to do the Paleo Pines episode. (0:21:49) Kevin: I want, I just want Maneko, nothing else, and I’ll leave you alone, games. (0:21:57) Al: Sundown Survivors, they’ve got their 1.4 update, which they have named “The Final Boss”. (0:22:05) Al: And I think that the update includes “The Final Boss” of the storyline. Just a thought there. (0:22:10) Kevin: What that’s wild (0:22:16) Al: It’s like, what do they call it? Bullet hell? It’s a roguelike type game. (0:22:24) Al: I’m not playing this game. I don’t know. There’s some stuff. There’s some farming, (0:22:25) Kevin: But you have Pokemon. (0:22:31) Al: right? I felt like I needed to include it, but this is… (0:22:34) Al: It’s like three quid as well. It’s very cheap. (0:22:48) Al: Okay, I don’t know what that means. (0:22:52) Al: Or was that shoot him up? Right, got you. Orange season also have an update out. The festival’s season, that is out now, (0:23:01) Al: and it adds a tomato war, the summer festival and the chicken race. (0:23:06) Kevin: These are all good, good words. I like, especially “tomato war.” (0:23:08) Al: Yeah, so it looks like it’s a festival where you’re like trying to hit each other with tomatoes. (0:23:11) Kevin: What does that mean? Oh, oh, you thought- oh. (0:23:18) Al: During the event, you and three other competitors will throw tomatoes at each other, earning points for hits and losing points for getting hit. The one with the highest score when the time is over wins. Don’t worry, all the tomatoes used weren’t apt for consumption anyway. Like it matters, it’s a game. (0:23:34) Al: Oh, there’s a swimming… Oh, wait, swimming? That is the Summer Festival. They just called it different things. They called it Summer Festival at the top and then they called it swimming festival. (0:23:34) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:23:48) Al: Let’s use swim and then there’s the chicken race, which I feel like that’s probably self-explanatory as well. (0:23:50) Kevin: just it looks good though (0:23:54) Al: Also, is that a dino chicken? Look at the colors on that chicken. (0:24:02) Kevin: I don’t… I think it’s the green-ish chicken. I don’t know. (0:24:07) Kevin: Um, there’s a whole bunch of other… (0:24:09) Al: Yes, they have the key one, I think, being that they’ve added control support, so this is good. (0:24:14) Al: Yes, yes, I do. As someone with a Steam Deck, I very much like controller support on Steam Games. (0:24:21) Al: Next, we have another update. Travelers Rest have their drinks and staff update. So… (0:24:31) Kevin: Those sound important to a game where you’re running a tabber. (0:24:35) Al: Yes. Yeah, so customers can order drinks. (0:24:39) Al: You can serve them drinks, and then there’s also… you can employ employees. (0:24:46) Al: They also added seasons to the game. Like, I feel like what was in this game before now, right? (0:24:52) Kevin: You can hire a bouncer. (0:24:53) Kevin: I’m wondering! (0:24:54) Al: They’ve added the guest room system as well. Like, there’s a lot in this update. (0:24:56) Kevin: New beverage aging system was that… (0:25:00) Kevin: There- ooh. (0:25:02) Kevin: That you’d expect in a tavern. (0:25:07) Kevin: A similar game. (0:25:07) Al: To be fair, to be fair, isn’t it? (0:25:09) Al: access. So it’s 0.6.1 update. Right, next we have two Pixellia which we’ve mentioned before but they are now in Kickstarter. Now what I want to do is I want Kevin to go and watch the entirety of this video before we talk about this. (0:25:14) Kevin: It’s a fun idea, just a little more time in the oven and it looks like- (0:25:29) Al: So I will probably cut this out listeners but I want Kevin to go and listen and then tell us what his thoughts. (0:25:29) Kevin: Alright. Alright, here we go. (0:25:32) Kevin: Are you sh- (0:25:34) Kevin: Alright, you don’t want- I can do it live as I’m watching. (0:25:38) Kevin: Alright. (0:25:39) Al: I mean you can do it live if you want but you don’t need to. (0:25:40) Kevin: Alright, based on my true story, is that what it just said? (0:25:45) Kevin: Yup, on my true story. (0:25:48) Kevin: I can live my life how I see fit, okay. (0:25:50) Kevin: Pixelian is a whole awful word. (0:25:53) Kevin: Is this just Pixel Sims? (0:25:53) Al: I know, right? (0:25:58) Al: I mean, I don’t know, I don’t think it’s Sims. (0:26:01) Al: It feels more like Pixel’s Second Life. (0:26:05) Kevin: or that short yeah oh yeah I’ll look at there’s a fashion runway yeah there’s a lot going on here well you can really do anything you can be a band basketball farmer okay you can you can decorate your space yeah okay this is just Sick in life pixel version. (0:26:10) Al: Because like, you are playing, because you’ve got one character that you’re playing. And it’s like, there’s so much going on. (0:26:20) Al: This is the thing, it just keeps going. (0:26:34) Kevin: Um (0:26:35) Kevin: Let’s embrace the thrill what you can rob banks And a hack I saw a binary oh my gosh grand theft auto actual street traffic violations Of course build bonds, what could that mean? (0:26:40) Al: Uh-huh, you can rob banks (0:26:49) Al: Yeah, you know, and then. (0:26:55) Kevin: You can’t go to jail. Yeah, i’m sure there’s I hope that jail system’s innovative Or immersive (0:27:02) Al: Yeah, I don’t know. I wonder if you can break out of it or not. (0:27:05) Al: What isn’t there? What isn’t there in this game? Like when I first saw this, I just thought it would be like another like life sim, standard life sim, but there’s an insane amount in this. (0:27:06) Kevin: Oh, you can you absolutely can oh, well, there’s a nightclub. Can you do crimes at the (0:27:20) Kevin: I mean, it is a life sim, but it’s a lot of life. (0:27:22) Al: Yeah, you can be a boxer. (0:27:24) Kevin: They really, this really is everything. (0:27:28) Kevin: Yup. (0:27:29) Kevin: Fishing, oh, there’s our cottage core. (0:27:31) Al: There’s our farming. (0:27:31) Kevin: Yeah, but who’s gonna, who wants to do that when you can rob banks? (0:27:36) Kevin: What is that? (0:27:37) Kevin: Is that the UN? (0:27:38) Kevin: Look, they have the bank robber right on the cover art. (0:27:40) Al: I think so. (0:27:42) Al: This is absolutely wild. (0:27:44) Kevin: That’s, they know that’s the good one. (0:27:48) Kevin: All right, there you go. (0:27:50) Kevin: They can’t do anything. (0:27:51) Kevin: It is. (0:27:54) Kevin: Wow, and boy, they’re so- (0:28:00) Al: Yeah, it’s not a huge goal. But yeah, still, I mean, you’ve seen ones with small goals not get hit. (0:28:06) Al: So, yeah, it’s going all right. Well, yeah, this is 2Pixellia. 2Pixellia is a pixel art life simulator game set in the charming country of Pixellia. Your journey begins with a life-changing decision to start a new life from scratch, bleh. And as you step off the bus, your choices will determine what that life will become. I wonder how much of that is like actual choice. I wonder if there’s things that you can’t actually do. (0:28:11) Kevin: They really do have politics. (0:28:30) Al: Like, do they build in, like, privilege and stuff like that? (0:28:36) Al: Is it easier for certain people to do certain things? (0:28:36) Kevin: Oh Oh, that would I would applaud them so hard if they did oh my gosh Idol I would would it be fun playing the game. I don’t know but reading it and seeing it happen and the Twitter Tweets that would come out of that. Oh my gosh, that would be the best (0:28:47) Al: I don’t know if that would be fun or not, that’s my only question. (0:28:54) Al: Yeah, it would be great as an art piece, certainly, right? (0:29:06) Kevin: Oh my gosh Okay Yeah, yeah just like the South Park difficulty slider Oh My gosh, okay. Look, you know what? They don’t even have to put gameplay in it But you like just lean into it like you can do anything (0:29:07) Al: But yeah, would that make it a fun game? (0:29:09) Al: I don’t know. (0:29:15) Al: I’m probably going to cut this bit, but like, you know, hard. (0:29:17) Al: More does your black, right? (0:29:18) Al: Yeah. (0:29:35) Kevin: Right in there. They’re added. That’s what they’re saying (0:29:36) Kevin: in their campaign. They’re advertising right. You can do anything and you can have like you could be a boxer You can be a bank robber. You can be a farmer. You can have privilege as a person of color You can do anything Oh my god, I mean there’s politics so the anarchy might Anarchism whatever you want to call it might be in the cards (0:30:06) Kevin: Dismantle the establishment Um, wow, that’s really uh, we’re very big and ambitious. That’s the word ambitious. Um And it looks the trailer looks like a game and with that small of a goal i’m assuming they’re Basically done It’s more game than not (0:30:23) Al: Yeah, so it does say that they’re expecting the final version to be out in May next year, (0:30:31) Al: I believe with the alpha coming out in December. So, I mean, that sounds to me like they, yeah, (0:30:38) Al: they have the features, right? They have the game and the alpha and beta will actually be an alpha and a beta, which is like actually testing the stuff that you’ve done rather than just going, “Hey, here’s a game without the stuff!” Right? You know, it’s like… (0:30:48) Kevin: Yep, does it work cough travelers rest cough No, I know (0:30:53) Al: “Here’s a game that has some stuff!” (0:30:56) Al: Which is… Well, I mean, that’s early on. They’re not calling it an alpha or beta. (0:31:00) Al: I just… I find it really annoying. Anyway, we don’t need to get into this again. (0:31:03) Al: What have I written in it? Yeah. It’s going to be interesting. Interesting to see. (0:31:07) Kevin: Yes, it’s big while yeah, that’s that’s yeah, you can really do anything sailing still an awful name So the there are clouds in the sky the ocean is wet Go ahead go ahead (0:31:10) Al: So, we’re going to talk about Stardew Valley. Let me start off. Let me start this off. (0:31:20) Al: Let me start this off! (0:31:24) Al: Kevin! (0:31:24) Al: So, Concern Date, like just after we recorded the last episode, posted this image on Twitter of, (0:31:33) Al: so have you ever done any Ginger Island stuff in Stardew? That was in the most recent update. (0:31:39) Al: I haven’t either, but I know that on Ginger Island, there’s a bunch of like parrots that you can use to unlock a bunch of stuff. And then, so this is an image of a parrot that is like (0:31:53) Al: JoJo branding, JoJo? JoJo? Is it JoJo? JoJo, sorry, JoJo, the JoJo branding on it. And so I’m like, (0:31:56) Kevin: Jojo, not Jojo. (0:32:01) Al: oh, interesting. Is this like another like JoJo based thing? How does this work? It’s going to be interesting to see what this is, presumably it’s on Ginger Island, or it’s in a new place that we don’t know about, something like that. And then, Concern Date just like posts a list of the features coming up in the next update. (0:32:23) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay.” Which includes one of the bullet points is Georgia alternatives to some of the endgame quests. (0:32:32) Al: So what I’m guessing is if you go the Georgia route for the community center, when you go to Ginger Island, all the parrots are Georgia parrots. (0:32:39) Kevin: Yup. (0:32:40) Kevin: Yup. (0:32:44) Kevin: Aw, sick. (0:32:46) Kevin: You’re gonna… (0:32:47) Kevin: Deforest that island and put on a Joja Mart there. (0:32:51) Al: I mean, I actually, I mean, I really enjoy doing the Georgia way of doing things, purely because it’s like, I like being able to just like, be a filthy capitalist, right? And just buy everything, right? Like, I’m just going to make so much money and just buy everything I need, right? Like, that’s fun to do. I obviously, I’ve only done it once, but it was fun to do it when I did it. Like, obviously, I enjoy doing the other way. (0:33:17) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:33:21) Al: But, you know, there’s a lot of my words, right? (0:33:26) Al: Okay, so let me just, let me just, well, let’s just go through this list and see if we have anything to say about them. How does that go? Because this is a lot of stuff coming in the new update. And I feel like, yeah, can we talk about this? Can we talk about this? Because, like, when Concern Date initially announced the 1.6 update, let me actually find the tweet. Because I’m sure and I can find it because he doesn’t tweet very much. (0:33:28) Kevin: Okay. (0:33:33) Kevin: Shock or… (0:33:35) Kevin: Cornsturn Day has a big update. laughs (0:33:49) Kevin: It’s also really short, like two sentences. (0:33:53) Kevin: Update coming, no release date. (0:33:54) Al: Okay, so what he said in his first tweet about 1.6 which was “April of this year” okay? (0:34:06) Al: Five months ago he said “There is going to be a StarJ 1.6 update. (0:34:10) Al: It’s mostly changes for modders, which will make it easier and more powerful to mod, but there is also new game content, albeit much less than 1.5.” (0:34:22) Kevin: This- Look, it is much less for a concerned ape by his scape metrics. (0:34:22) Al: Now look at this list. (0:34:24) Al: We have one new major festival, and two mini festivals. (0:34:36) Kevin: Wow, mini, okay! (0:34:37) Al: Right, so that’s just three festivals, right? (0:34:42) Al: Let’s not list it. (0:34:43) Al: You just added three new festivals in this update. (0:34:45) Al: He has added new late game content which expands on each of the skill areas. (0:34:50) Kevin: There’s a lot of skills in this game, so that’s the… (0:34:51) Al: There’s a lot of skills in this game. (0:34:54) Al: New items and crafting recipes. Sure, fine. We don’t know much about that. One of them looks to be a drink. One of them looks to be another warp totem. One is either golf clubs or a bag of worms. (0:35:04) Al: I don’t know. I can’t tell. Oh, could be. Oh, interesting. Is that… I wonder if that would… (0:35:06) Kevin: Quiver arrow arrow quiver Weapon new weapon I could see that (0:35:14) Al: Well, you can… There is no bow and arrow, isn’t there? There’s just… There’s the… (0:35:18) Al: The… What’s it called? The little… The little… The little kind of… What’s Bart Simpson’s thing? (0:35:19) Kevin: And this last I checked, slingshot. (0:35:23) Al: you know the like slingshot. (0:35:24) Al: Interesting arrow. I wonder how much of this is come from like stuff he’s adding into haunted chocolate here and going actually I want to add that into Stardew Valley. (0:35:33) Kevin: Other way around he’s it just adding haunted chocolates here in the Stardew I made the joke on the slack. It’s to start a 2.0 actually (0:35:34) Al: I mean I actually wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up adding if haunted chocolate here was a DLC yes and then we’ve got like I mean honestly I would not be surprised if haunted chocolate here ends up being DLC for Stardew Valley like we’ll all buy it and we’ll all love it. (0:35:54) Al: A hundred plus new lines of dialogue. (0:35:55) Kevin: Yep. (0:35:55) Kevin: That’s a lot of dialogue. (0:35:58) Al: Georgia alternatives to some of the end game quests. (0:36:01) Al: That’s what we’ve already talked about. (0:36:03) Al: Winter outfits for the villain. (0:36:05) Al: Winter outfits for the villagers. (0:36:07) Al: That’s all of the villagers are getting winter outfits. (0:36:09) Al: Now, one could say they should have already been there. (0:36:12) Al: That’s fair enough. (0:36:13) Al: But like that’s not a small thing to add, right? (0:36:17) Kevin: Sure, yes, right. (0:36:17) Al: Unique clothes for every single villager in the game. (0:36:21) Al: New type of reward for completing billboard accrues. (0:36:24) Al: Adding in support for 8 player multiplayer on PC. (0:36:29) Kevin: Oh nothing nothing big there. It’s just a player multiplayer They only on PC to be clear What is left to fall it’s a new farm that specializes in chocolate actually (0:36:30) Al: Just doubling the number of people that can play the game at once. (0:36:36) Al: A new farm! Another new farm! (0:36:42) Al: I don’t… (0:36:51) Al: I just, like, you could say this was small. (0:36:54) Al: If you want, I think you’re talking nonsense, right? (0:36:57) Kevin: I genuinely believe Concerned Ape thinks this is small. (0:36:58) Al: Like… (0:36:58) Al: Oh, I’m sure he does! (0:37:04) Al: I think he’s talking nonsense though. (0:37:06) Al: Like, this is not a small update. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. (0:37:08) Kevin: And of course, he has the new secrets and more at the end, meaning there’s who knows what else. (0:37:14) Al: Yep. (0:37:16) Al: Do you know, I think he keeps doing this because it just keeps getting people back into the game because now I want to play stardom. (0:37:17) Kevin: It’s a blank check. (0:37:24) Al: So yeah, there’s a lot of stardom stuff coming. He says there’s no date for 1.6 yet and I believe him. (0:37:29) Kevin: Maybe. I mean, there’s winter outfits for you to celebrate. (0:37:39) Al: Well that’s exactly what’s going to happen right? Well for PC anyway, it’ll take a while for consoles but yeah, that’s going to be like “oh yeah, game’s out now”. (0:37:42) Kevin: Yeah, it’ll just look knowing him. It’s just he’s gonna have a tweet. So it’s out. That’s it Yeah (0:37:50) Al: But yeah, that’s going to be like, “Oh yeah, game’s out now.” (0:37:53) Al: You’re like, “Sorry, what?” (0:37:54) Al: There’ll be somebody who will load up Steam the moment it gets updated, (0:38:01) Al: and Concerned Date won’t have tweeted about it yet. (0:38:03) Al: Someone will be like, “Oh, he’s updated the game,” and then Concerned Date will announce it by retweeting that person’s tweet. It’s like, “Oh man, you don’t have to keep giving us this stuff for free right like I know I know we made a lot of money with stargy (0:38:04) Kevin: Oh, oh, oh, absolutely. (0:38:25) Al: right I know i’m sure he is but I mean you know dude’s working dude’s got to get paid like i’m just i’m sure he is (0:38:25) Kevin: I think he still is. (0:38:36) Kevin: I’m I’m not concerned about that. I’m sure he’s making good money Like you said like you said this every time he does this the new one point whatever number That’s that’s that’s sales. That’s absolutely sales Just you watch to just just you way you will eat (0:38:51) Al: I think I already own the game on everything. I don’t think I can buy it again. (0:38:55) Al: I just can’t decide what to play the game on again. Like, do I just continue on Switch? (0:39:03) Al: Do I play it on Steam Deck? Because the update’s probably going to come to Steam first. (0:39:09) Kevin: I don’t know. Well, I mean, yeah, it’s kind of just the first I don’t know. (0:39:09) Al: How good’s the controller I support on Steam? (0:39:19) Al: It was fine. (0:39:23) Kevin: I would like to see when (0:39:27) Al: Crazy. I’m presuming the new farm is to do with that, right? Like instead of four corners, it’s in eight corners. (0:39:33) Al: It does have full controller support on Steam. He did also say in his Steam update, (0:39:44) Al: which is different from the Tweet, he says, “I have no release date for it yet, but it will release it as soon as it’s ready. The content is pretty close to being finished, but then there will (0:39:59) Kevin: Yeah, because he’s on everything now, that tail end of development is a bit, it’s a, it’s a- (0:40:09) Al: Maybe I need to start soon so that I can actually get done with the 1.5 stuff. (0:40:13) Kevin: There you go, yeah, there you go. (0:40:16) Kevin: Look, okay, you’re debating where, here’s what you do. (0:40:18) Kevin: You have one on Switch, one on Steam Deck, (0:40:21) Kevin: one of them is the Jojo Route, one is not. (0:40:23) Kevin: There you go, problem solved. (0:40:28) Kevin: You know, look at that parrot, (0:40:31) Kevin: it’s on a stand with the J on it. (0:40:34) Kevin: You won’t get that if you don’t do Jojo Route. (0:40:41) Kevin: It’s a self-concerned game, not me! (0:40:45) Al: Also, we’ll see whether 1.7 happens or not. (0:40:48) Kevin: Oh, it… it… like… I… (0:40:49) Al: He’s only mentioned 1.7 once and that was in answer to a question as to whether there would be a 1.7 and he said, “Who knows?” (0:40:59) Kevin: I made- again I made the joke on Slack but this is almost as serious as it is a joke. (0:41:05) Kevin: It will outlive a lot of things. (0:41:08) Kevin: These Stardew updates. (0:41:09) Al: I feel like he said 1.5 was the last one, so he kind of already has failed at stopping. (0:41:11) Kevin: This man cannot stop. He’s just one of those people. (0:41:20) Al: Anyway, right, the other big news that we’ve got to talk about. (0:41:24) Al: Oh, so, Tales of the Shire. (0:41:24) Kevin: Something else that won’t stop, Lord of the Rings! (0:41:31) Al: Now, for some reason, and I think we all know the reason, the answer to that, the reason is money, right? (0:41:36) Kevin: money. (0:41:39) Al: But for some money-related reason, Lord of the Rings is making a cottagecore game based in the Shire. (0:41:49) Al: And that’s how you get the best of your own. (0:41:49) Al: I’m not. (0:41:50) Al: We know at this point. What I will say, what I will say is interesting. Weta Workshop are, (0:41:57) Al: it says to, it’s, what’s the other company? Sorry, I’m just trying to look at this again, (0:42:03) Al: because it, so Private Division, I don’t know who they are, but I know that Weta Workshop made physical props for the films. (0:42:17) Kevin: If you that trailer looks like it was filled not the set like I mean it’s a very short trailer just shows the book basically but like it you can see from that one shot like there’s a lot of love for Lord of the Rings here I am very confident that this will be a very good and Lord of the Rings. (0:42:20) Al: Yeah. (0:42:39) Kevin: Well actually actually I’m thinking about this now it’s all in the shire right like there’s a lot of important. (0:42:45) Al: Yes. (0:42:46) Al: Yes. (0:42:47) Kevin: The Lord of the Rings stuff not in the shire and how much of that is going to leak into here can you romance or on. (0:42:51) Al: Well, I’m presuming some people are coming to visit, right? (0:42:56) Al: No. (0:42:58) Kevin: I. (0:43:01) Al: So, games, the private division have worked on or with Hades. (0:43:12) Al: They worked with Supergiant Games on Hades. (0:43:13) Kevin: Oh. Oh boy. (0:43:16) Al: Ollie Ollie World. (0:43:17) Al: Skateboarding game. It’s very good. (0:43:22) Kevin: Okay, oh That’s a that’s a good one Good heavens these this is the good resume (0:43:24) Al: The Outer Worlds. (0:43:25) Al: Kerbal Space Program Enhanced Edition. (0:43:31) Al: And they’re making Tales of the Shire with Weta Workshop. (0:43:38) Al: Well, the interesting thing is, the point is, Weta Workshop have done Lord of the Rings stuff. (0:43:44) Al: Like they are, they did physically. (0:43:45) Al: This is supposed weird, they made physical, they’re not a game developer. (0:43:50) Al: They are so, so, so there we go. (0:43:51) Kevin: No, but they’re Lord of the Rings people. (0:43:54) Kevin: That’s what private division is for. (0:43:56) Kevin: They’re Lord of the… Yeah. (0:43:58) Kevin: Yeah, to be clear… (0:43:58) Al: Well, so it looks like Private Division are a publisher, not a developer. (0:44:01) Kevin: Oh, well, well, look. (0:44:03) Al: That’s fine. (0:44:04) Al: So they’re not, they are, that is correct. (0:44:05) Kevin: Weta Workshop is from New Zealand, I believe, if I’m not mistaken. (0:44:09) Kevin: Okay, well, New Zealand, I… (0:44:12) Kevin: I say somewhat jokingly, somewhat seriously. (0:44:15) Kevin: There is an appreciable amount of their GDP That is from Lord of the Rings! (0:44:21) Kevin: I am confident this will get the love and attention it deserves. (0:44:21) Al: I’m just, I am just fascinating. (0:44:26) Kevin: And it’s a lot of the rings, man. (0:44:35) Kevin: Well… (0:44:36) Al: Look, this is going to be dangerous, right? Because I love Lord of the Rings and I love Kochiko Games. I’m really worried about this. (0:44:37) Kevin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. (0:44:44) Kevin: I think the expression of “I just want to be a hobbit” in the last video is… (0:44:51) Kevin: A little shire is a very common sentiment among people in general. (0:45:04) Al: 2024 to PC and console. I don’t think they’ve said (0:45:12) Kevin: I like how we’re excited, we have no idea what it’s gonna be like, like, no! (0:45:14) Al: It doesn’t matter, we know, we know what, like I, I trust that this will be good. (0:45:17) Kevin: Oh, I do too? No, I fully agree, I just, I just think it’s funny, like, that’s how confident we are in this project. (0:45:25) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:45:28) Kevin: That we don’t need any details, we’re gonna get it, and it’s gonna be good, and… (0:45:28) Al: I mean, that trailer looked good. (0:45:33) Kevin: You alright? There you go. (0:45:36) Al: So, yeah. (0:45:37) Al: Hopefully, we’ll find out soon. (0:45:42) Al: I sincerely hope so. (0:45:43) Kevin: can you have second breakfast argue right right okay okay yes yes all right (0:45:48) Al: Oh, shall we talk about Meneko’s Nightmark? (0:45:59) Al: I realised I hadn’t actually written down what things were going to talk about, so I’m just like frantically thinking up things. (0:46:06) Kevin: Well, as always, let’s start with the context of where we’re coming from. (0:46:13) Kevin: As you said earlier, you’re playing on Steam Deck, I’m playing on Switch, I’m interested to hear the comparison there. (0:46:21) Kevin: What are your overall thoughts, opinions? (0:46:25) Al: Yes, I like this game. I have some comments on things I would improve. (0:46:37) Kevin: There are definitely issues… small, like… (0:46:39) Al: Well, small in so much as like, it depends how you define a small. So one of the things I have noticed is that every loading screen is very long. (0:46:53) Kevin: Okay, I okay. Are we just gonna get into this like the bad because like All right. All right. Okay. I was yes loading This is probably the number one big issue loading times are Atrocious like I thought I was wondering if it was just a switch port, but okay, so it’s not okay Okay, I want to My very first thought about this game when I played it (0:46:55) Al: Let’s just go for it. Let’s get the bad out of the way so we can talk about the good, right? Let’s let’s go for it. (0:47:02) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:47:09) Al: It is not. It is the same on Steam Deck. (0:47:23) Kevin: So when you started you get the loading screen and it’s like mineko running in the corner but there’s no music or anything and I Genuinely thought my game had frozen as I soon as I’d started cuz the necker stopped moving [laughing] (0:47:28) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there’s something weird in terms of like, there, (0:47:44) Al: cause yeah, there’s some freezes and stuff as well, which sometimes can be a bit stressful. (0:47:46) Kevin: Yep. (0:47:47) Al: We are like, Oh no, have I lost my day? No, I haven’t. I have not lost any data. Um, (0:47:48) Kevin: Ee-eesh. (0:47:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:47:55) Al: That’s not true, there was one, what happened? (0:47:58) Al: I can’t remember, there was one case where I had to restart and I lost the day, (0:48:01) Al: and I can’t remember what that was. Did I write it in Slack? (0:48:04) Al: Oh yes, no, I remember, I remember, I remember, there’s a button on the controller remapping where you can click it and it deletes all of your mapping so you can’t do anything with the game. (0:48:04) Kevin: I don’t… I mean, yeah… (0:48:08) Kevin: See, okay, my… oh, okay, so… (0:48:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:48:15) Kevin: Yes. (0:48:19) Al: So if you click that button, which annoyingly the button is labeled default, so I can– (0:48:21) Kevin: Oh my god, are you see… (0:48:28) Al: I kind of thought that would set it to the default, right? (0:48:30) Al: Because I’d changed a few things and I was like, “All right, well, let me reset it to the default.” (0:48:34) Al: But the default is nothing. (0:48:34) Kevin: Ohhh… (0:48:36) Al: But the problem is then, I have no controls. Nothing worked. (0:48:36) Kevin: Ohhh yeah! (0:48:40) Al: So thankfully, it didn’t autosave, right? (0:48:42) Kevin: Yes, witches! (0:

For more info on what is discussed in this epsiode, head to MarketPowerMethod.com Allen: Boom, welcome to another edition of the Options Genius Podcast! Today, as promised, in the last episode, we have an interview, an interview with a fellow named Kevin. And Kevin is one of our beta testers in the Market Power Program, Kevin has done an amazing 266% ROI, since he's joined the program earlier in 2003. So that's not even a whole year worth the results. And that is after fees. So after he took out his commission's after he took out his fees, that's how much money he put in his pocket. Or basically, he left in the account. I don't know what he did with it. But yeah, that's what he kept. All right. That is amazing. I wanted to share this with you, I wanted to get this to you. Because these type of results are uncommon. I think that's an understatement. You know, when you have most people trying to make seven 8% A year from the stock market, even though you know, the market, banks, banks are paying what 4 or 5%. Right now, that's wonderful, that's great. Stock market should be paying more, but nobody out there is getting 266%. So shake cheese, but we are doing it with the market power program, I wanted to share this because I want you to be excited, I want you to be happy for Kevin, I want you to know this type of stuff is available, it's doable, if you have success with trading. So that's like the goal. I mean, the goal shouldn't be 266%. But the goal should be that you have enough money coming in to pay for all your expenses that you could do that from your trading. So you have basically your financial independence, right? And then after that you keep adding more and more money to the accounts or to your savings account or whatever, so that the financial worries that you have in your life melt away and you don't have any financial work. Because the thing is like, hey, oh, I got a speeding ticket. Okay? Well, if you can write a check, to make your problem go away, you don't have a problem. And that's what I really want. That's the type of life I want to have for you. Okay, so the type of problem where he's like, Okay, if I can just write a check and make this problem go away, I don't have a problem, I have a money issue. And the money issue, we want to make it go away through trading, market power is going to be one of those ways this program is coming. It's exciting. It's amazing. I can't speak enough about it. I mean, it's just unbelievable. I haven't I lost sleep. When we first came up with this seriously, I lost sleep for days and days and days. And I just can't believe it. And even now, it's still unbelievable. 54 trades in a row that I have made with this program. I think Kevin, the one that you're going to see in the interview, I think he had one trade that went bad, and he had to adjust it. And so it still worked out. And it's phenomenal. It's amazing. And he's not the only one, I'm not the only one, we have 35 other people that are trading this, in our beta testing program. They're all doing phenomenal. We have case studies, we have screenshots, we have interviews, we have, you know, the emails from them, thanking us and saying how amazing it is. So it's just a matter of time before we can open it up for others join. And unfortunately, you know, we can't let everybody in the whole world join. So whoever gets in to get in, that's wonderful. You only help certain limited amount of people, because we still need to protect it and keep it somewhat secret in the sense so that it doesn't get diluted and it doesn't stop working. So that's the situation here. I'm gonna go ahead and stop talking and let you watch or listen to the interview. And then when market power, makes his official debut and launches to the general list, I will let you know on the podcast. Or if you want to get to know earlier, then you can go to OptionGenius.com and email us or contact us and say hey, I want to be on the notification list. I want to know more about Market Power. I want to know when it comes out. I want to be one of the first How do I get to the top of the line, right? So let's do that. And let's go ahead and let's get into this interview. Matthew: Alright. So today we're joined by Kevin Donegen, and he's a member of our market power program. And I want to thank you today for sharing your experience. And you know how the course has been going for you and the program, and just really appreciate having you. Kevin: You're welcome. Glad to be here. Thanks, sir. Matthew: You're welcome. So, I always ask people, you know, the first question is, how did you find Option Genius? So a lot of people find it by podcast or other means. So how did you find out Option Genius? Kevin: It's been a few years now, because I joined other, you know, the training portion of Option Genius a couple years ago, I think it was late 21. So almost two years now, I guess, you know, it's a good question, how I found Option Genius. I guess. I was exploring Option Trading, you know, on my phones, or searches and option genius. And I looked at a few mean, option, genius came up and I gravitated towards it. I don't know, I think I was just searching for option learning, training and learning kind of stuff and found it and it's been good. So I think I found it just by searching. Matthew: Just by discovery. Kevin: Yeah, research Matthew: Great. So you've been a part of our original market program. Call you guys kind of like the Founding Fathers, you know, you, you went in there and tried everything? And is there anything when you decided to join the program? Were you like, hey, you know, I want to be a part of this program that stuck out to you. Kevin: Boy, when Allen, when you all had that first introductory conference call regarding the program, and shared the historical back testing data about what the program was based on? I mean, that that clinched it right there, that historical back tested data, of, you know, the premise, and the process of the program, and how it looked back tested was just the results are just remarkable. Matthew: Excellent. Did you have any personal expectations before you joined the program, you know, as far as like a percentage goal or just to kind of get consistent? Kevin: I had been trading options, covered calls and in spreads before a little bit, I dabbled in it. So I guess my initial expectation for the program was to pay back my, the cost of the program. First, that was my first goal. And I did it pretty quickly. And by starting out slow, you know, I, you know, I started out real slow just to get the feel for the program. And as I traded more, and you know, the indicator came up, and I made a trade in one and one again, and one again, my confidence, says, Yes, this is real. And then I just started slowly, my trade starts slowly ramped up, and I think I paid for it. And depending on how slow or fast you start, it can be a fast payback. If you start with larger trades, but I think I paid mine back in a few weeks, like 12 weeks or something. Matthew: Wow, that's great. That's like, yeah, it's really important, what you just said, you know, a lot of people, you know, you're excited, and you can see things working. And a lot of times, you know, the human psychology gets involved, and we go too fast, right? You know, so it's, it's really kind of really great that you kind of measure yourself and start slow. So it's really great. For sure. Is there any kind of particular part of the program that you really like? You know, is it some people can say, oh, it's adjustment, or it's, whatever. Is there anything you can pinpoint? Kevin: Yep, the two things come, pop up in my mind, that the online forum of the group and the chats and the sharing of information amongst the market power group, I really enjoy that to get other people's opinion and take on the program in the market and when to trade, not to trade. So I really like that it's an open forum. And it's, it's welcoming, and no one's afraid to say anything. So I really liked that. The second tool I like is the trading log, the market power trading log that you all put together. It's well organized. I've been using that to track all my trades. Matthew: Great. Yeah. I mean, again, you hit on a really great point. I mean, that we have a group of people, you know, some people are just new to options. And you have some people I said in another interview that are looks like they take it to quantum physics. So it's like, you get all this range of knowledge. And it's really kind of, we're all here for the right reason. So it's really kind of great. It's almost like a family, if you will. Kevin: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Matthew: How has the support been? I mean, you kind of mentioned a little bit from Option Genius, but more like the people around you. I mean, I think you just alluded to that, that you have a good support system that If you want. Kevin: Oh yeah, whether it be a group member or yourself or Trish or an even Allen, it's been great. The communication has been prompt and, and timely and always answered. So there's always someone to answer a question or what have you. So it's been really good. Matthew: That's great to hear. You know, we really want people to feel involved and not feel left out. I'm, you know, there's nothing worse than feeling like you're alone, you know? Yeah. Kevin: So I don't, I don't feel that way at all.  Matthew: Awesome. Has your trading changed at all? Since you joined the program? Like, as far as I mean, can you talked a little about confidence, or, you know, some people? You know, a big main reason is confidence, I say, but how was it for you? Kevin: So, last year before the program, I had some success, just doing it myself, but then I got burned, and wiped away all my profits. So what I get out of the program is the discipline of the program. And, you know, when you have an indicator day, that's the day to trade no other. So, I'm more disciplined since joining the program. And I'm only trading when there's an indicator day, by and large. So the short answer is, I've gained a lot of discipline after joining the program.  Matthew: That's great to hear. So we're all shoot for that to be consistent, you know, and there's nothing worse than trading and winning than winning, and then giving it all back. I think it's like the, you know, it's the worst thing that can happen, right? Kevin: Anybody that's probably been in options have had that experience at one time or another? Matthew: Sure. So it's almost required. Kevin: Boy, it's a tough learning, but that's okay. Matthew: All right. So, um, how have your results been so far? For you? Kevin: I'm looking at my trading log right now, because I figured you'd ask that. And I've kind of added some features to it myself. But if you're interested in those, we can talk about that. But I've made what about 47 trades? Not counting yesterday. So I work off the two platforms. So I'd make trades in both one as is a smaller account, one's a bigger account. So I may duplicate a given day on two different platforms. But anyway, you know, 47 trades, I think I lost only one. And that was because of me. It wasn't because of the program. And I only lost like 600 bucks. So no big deal. And then I adjusted and made it back. So but that was my fault. And I bought too early in the day, basically. And I put notes out there, which is good. My average number of contracts, I would say is 20. So but you know, I've been up as high as 40 and 10. And 30. Just depends how I'm feeling. You know, like, like, yesterday, I did only 20. I don't know, I I don't know why I just didn't want to do 40. You know, and so long and short. I've made over a minute, I also back out the cost of trades to get a net profit, right? So my net profit is 226%. Matthew: Yeah, that's great. You mean, you're trading at a good amount? You kind of just talked to how a little bit can made me kind of feel how I trade you know, there's some days that, you know, you don't you have like kind of a hunch, you know, you're like, I don't really feel, you know, can be personal. It could be like something like, I just don't feel like trading today. And that's perfectly fine. And what I do love, and I think you'll agree is that some days, you don't have to trade, you know, it's like, you don't have to take every signal. Right? You can, you can wait and there'll be another one coming down the pike, you know? Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And that's why that's where the discipline comes in. You know, because you just got to be patient because the signal will come. And when it comes, that's your time. Matthew: So yeah, yeah, you kind of take it as a case by case basis. You know, that's great, for sure. Alright, so kind of a fun question. So a lot of people, they have different goals for their profits. And it's nice to good problem to have, you know, you're in your profit, you're making money. Some people do fun things like take vacations, and some people just roll it into their account. So what are your plans? Kevin: So I guess, on articulate or unstated two goals for the program and the profits that I earned from market power. First is to build up my account so I can grow the dollars in My Account for doing this so that I could keep slowly ramping up as I get more and more comfortable. But then I also, the second one is to take some of the profits and have some fun. And like you alluded to, I think maybe before we started the call, but, you know, I went fishing in Colorado, and virtually almost paid for the whole trip, in a day, at least a good portion of VRBO expense. And then, earlier in the year, my wife and I went to Paris, and I was trading when I was over in Paris, and helps pay for that part of the trip. So, you know, Matthew: It's great. I mean, it almost makes your trip more enjoyable. You know, you're over there, you're like, hey, you know, this is cash flow in this right now, you know? Kevin: Exactly. So it's, it's a great feeling. So yeah, two things, take a little profits, have some fun with it, and then keep growing the account. Matthew: Excellent. Excellent. So what would you say to someone that you were there in the original group, and a lot of people have apprehensions about joining programs, you know, whether it's true, we're kind of at a point now, where we've had many, many winners, and if not any losers on the track record, actually no losses on the track record. So it's almost too good to be true. So people are naturally skeptical. What would you say to someone that, you know, there's going to be next group and a group after that, and people join in this program? So what would you say to someone that's kind of on the fence about joining this program? Kevin: Well, if they see any of these interviews from the current market power group, I gotta believe take it from the member, the current members and what they're saying, and their results, trust, the back tested data is real. And ever since we, we joined market power, the program to your point hasn't had a losing trade yet. So it works. I mean, the data speaks for itself, and they can if they're apprehensive, start slow, kind of like what I did and get comfortable with it. And you'll quickly, quickly get more confidence in the program. Matthew: Excellent. Well, wise words, I mean, you know, it's really important, you hit on some really important points that, you know, patients taking your time, and really kind of just trusting yourself. I mean, give it you know, giving something a try and, you know, the worst possible thing that can happen, you know, so that's great. So I really want to thank you for taking the time today. I really appreciate it and you know, sharing your experience, so really great having you on. Kevin: Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you, Matthew. All right. Thank you. Have a great day. You too.

In this episode of "Coping," Kevin and Kathy delve into the concept of labeling emotions productively and destructively in the context of grief. They introduce a helpful tool, the Feelings Wheel, to aid in identifying and expressing emotions, which can help you to explore and acknowledge feelings related to grief. Kathy: Welcome back for another episode of “Coping”. Kevin: Last episode, we talked about ways we can begin to get our grief out, and we talked about the method of linking, linking our losses and the way that our brain naturally does that. Kathy: Yes, if you recall, we discussed the benefits of linking as well as externalizing our inward grief. And in this episode, we're gonna talk about another way we can begin to get the grief out. Kevin: Recently, we purchased a gift for our daughter and that gift is a label maker. She's become so preoccupied with this label maker, assigning all the different things in her room, especially her desk area, making sure everything in her room is neat and tidy, and she knows exactly where it is because of these labels that she's making. So in today's episode, we're gonna discuss this idea of labeling and see how it relates to our grief. Let's get started. Kathy: Yes, so when we were thinking about ideas for our daughter's birthday, she had come across a vintage label maker at her work, and then became very interested in an idea of having one herself. So that's what she's been doing since she's gotten it, making labels and labeling everything like around her room and all of that. Kevin: That's right. And you may be like our daughter obsessed with cleaning and organizing and even own a label maker yourself. I guess the question really is, "how does labeling relate to our grief?" Well, let's start with the definition of labeling. Kevin: Labeling is the simple act of noticing and naming something. I'll say that again. Labeling is the simple act of noticing and naming something. So for example, our daughter, she labels a bunch of things in her office. Like what? What do you see her labeling? Kathy: So she's labeling boxes and just items so that she knows what's in different things and then creating labels for all of us to put on our things as well. Kevin: Exactly. So the label maker is making it easy for her to know at a glance where something is. She knows what it is. She can notice it, name it and grab it right away. Kathy: Right, exactly. I have a question for you. Do you think labeling is always helpful? Kevin: You know, when it comes down to it, I think there's really two types of labeling. First, there's this productive labeling, which we'll call "naming", where you're naming something. This is pretty common in talk therapy where you're encouraged to name the emotions that you're having by noticing them and naming them and helps you get some. control back over those emotions perhaps, but there's also a destructive labeling and we'll call that "shaming." Kevin: So the biggest difference between naming and shaming is its effect on us and how we're using what we're labeling. So destructive labeling or shaming, Webster's dictionary says it's "assigning something to a category, especially inaccurately or restrictively." So this kind of labeling leads to prejudice and marginalization of entire groups of people, where we're using the labeling as a way to marginalize people. This is really like the root of racism, sexism, any anti-LGBTQIA views. It's really at its core, naming something or a people group as a way to shame and to "other" them. This shaming as it relates to grief is called grief shaming. Kevin: Grief shaming is the act of blaming, minimizing, or judging one's expression of grief. And this is pretty common in society. We've all heard this or experienced this in some way, but let's take some time to break it down a little bit. Kathy: I know we've all experienced some of these moments and phrases of grief shaming. Some of them sound like, "well, you weren't even married." "I thought you'd be over it by now." "Miscarriages happen all the time" and "you're still wearing your wedding ring." "Why are you so upset? You didn't even get along with your mom." Or simply grief shaming of silent treatment when a statement is made and there's dead silence. Kevin: What you can see from these phrases, not only does somebody who's grieving have the difficulty of the loss and the grief experience, they also have on top of that the negative experiences of others' negativity and comments or distance that can build their experience of shame and grief being harder than just the actual experience itself. Kathy: Right. Kevin: What I think it's also important to name here is that grief -shaming can also be initiated by us, that we shame ourself in the midst of our own grief, that we judge and blame and criticize ourselves for our experience of grief. Now, self -shaming is the act of blaming, minimizing, or judging one's self -expression of grief. So, you can take those same phrases that somebody's directing at you externally, and you can externalize those things and say things like, "why do I still feel this way?" "I just need to move on. We weren't even that close. Why am I sad that they're gone? Wait, am I sad enough?" Or "others had it way worse than me." My grief is nothing in comparison to what they've been through. Kevin: That type of labeling, it can be unproductive and really stunt your healing experience. You're placing this judgment and criticism on it, which really can stunt it and prevent it from being processed, as we've discussed in other episodes. Kathy: Yeah, both seem to be a cutoff, a cutting off of either you're being cut off by someone or you're cutting yourself off, not allowing yourself to process or have the feelings. You're not giving, there's no permission. Kevin: Yeah, it leads to unresolved grief symptoms in the body, in the mind, the heart, and the spirit. Kathy: Right. So when it comes to loss, what's the other side of this? What does productive labeling look like? Kevin: So one way we can productively label is by naming our feelings. Like I said before, naming feelings is something that we learn in therapeutic relationships where we're called to notice how we're feeling, how something made us feel, reflect on it, and name the emotion attached to it. Kevin: This term in psychology is referred to as affect labeling. In other words, putting feelings into words. Studies have shown that affect labeling reduces activity in our brain's amygdala. That's the part of the brain that has that fight or flight response. It really helps lessen the intensity of any experience, especially as it relates to grief. There's this one psychologist, Dr. Matthew Lieberman. He's a professor, but also an author of a book called, "Social: Why Our Brains Are Wired to Connect". Kevin: He says, “putting negative feelings into words can help regulate negative experiences. In other words, naming our feelings won't put the brakes on that emotion, but will help us get into the driver's seat of the experience.” I love that quote. So good. Kathy: It's very helpful. But I know as an introvert that I always have a hard time naming my feelings. So that all sounds excellent, but for most of us, I think that we don't know how to access that tool of naming our feelings. Do you have any tools or strategies? Kevin: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think whether you're introverted and you're not really sure what you're feeling, because the emotions are so intense. For extroverts like I am, sometimes you're feeling so many different things you can't quite pin down one feeling. You feel like you're feeling all of the feelings all at once. And so in our workshops we have used a tool called a Feelings Wheel. It's been such a helpful tool for us in our own individual lives, but also in the times that we've taught on the Feelings Wheel to help you articulate the specific emotion that you're having and then describe for yourself how you're feeling, but then also use that language to connect with other people to name how you're feeling. Kathy: Yeah, this Feelings Wheel is fantastic. It really helps. You go from that -- you start in the center and it will give you some main feelings and then you can work your way outward to identify more specifically what you're feeling and it really helps to name what we're talking about today, the feelings. Kevin: Yeah, exactly. And we've found this to be so helpful in our workshops. We want it to be a resource for all of you. So we're gonna put a link in the notes of the podcast so that you can get to it pretty easily but you can also just Google Feelings Wheel and I hope that it can be as useful of a resource to you as it has been for us. Kathy: Yeah, that would be excellent. Kevin: Yeah. All right, so let me just give a summary of what we talked about so far: When we notice and name our feelings, we connect our head, our thinking selves with our heart, our feeling selves. And this language, the naming of our feelings, the productive labeling, gives us language that allows us to articulate our experience to ourselves, but also to others. But most importantly, it gives us language to affirm the experience that we're having. When we can see the words on the page that describe exactly how we're feeling, it can be a very affirming experience. Kathy: Thanks, Kevin. This is super helpful. So to end this episode, we wanted to give you some time right now to think through your feelings as related to your grief. So would you pause with me a moment? Take a few moments to pause. Kathy: And I want you to narrow in on one particular loss for this exercise. Which loss is most prominent for you right now? in your life. I want you to begin to think now how it makes you feel. Why is the loss so heavy for you? Does the loss make you feel sad, angry, fearful? Sit with your loss for a moment and think about the main feelings that arise for you. you It's okay to have more than one feeling as you think on this loss. Kathy: Finally, give yourself permission to sit with the loss and the feelings that come up for you. you. If you need extra support and help with this process, feel free to reach out to us at Be Well, and most of all know that you're not alone. Thanks so much for joining us for this conversation, and whatever you may be coping with today, blessings to you.

Kevin: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Coping. Kathy: Yes. Welcome, everyone. Last episode we talked about the ways we can begin to get the grief out. Kevin: Yeah, that's right. So we discussed the benefits of list making and how externalizing our inward grief is a part of processing our grief and working through it. In this episode, we're going to go a little bit deeper and talk about another way to begin to get that reef out. And I think a good way to start is with a fun little game. If you'll play along with me, Kathy. Kathy: As long as you don't keep the score, you're pretty competitive. Kevin: Alright, no scorekeeping. But let's play a little game. So I'm going to say a word, and I want you to say the first word that comes to mind. It's like an association game, okay? Kathy: Okay. Kevin: All right, the first word is tea. Kathy: Scones. Kevin: Good. Alright. Movies. Kathy: Popcorn. Kevin: There you go. Beach. Kathy: Shade. Kevin: Shade. There you go. Kathy: Let me try. How about San Francisco? Kevin: Oh, trolley. Kathy: So I'm assuming that this fun game has something to do with grief and what we're learning about this week. Kevin: That's right. We're going to talk about how our brains are wired to link, and we'll talk about that. Kathy: All right, let's get started. So you mentioned that there's another process we can use to begin to get the grief out. Can you explain? Kevin: Yeah. So this process is called linking. Remember last time we listed our losses? This time we're going to take some time to learn to link those losses and see how our brain is storing those memories. So the next L of loss is Linking. Kevin: When we talk about our brains, we have to remember that every experience we have leaves its mark on our brain. So when we learn something new, the neurons involved in that learning episode grow new projections and form new links in our brain. These links allow for learning and memory and other complex functions of the brain. Kevin: So that leads us to our first principle, which is that our brains link on a cellular level. And this is especially true during difficult experiences. A recent study suggests that our brains recall bad memories more readily and with more clarity than good memories. And I think we all know this to be true in our lives, that we can easily recall those difficult days more than we can recall the good day that we had yesterday. Right? Kathy: Right. Kevin: And researchers say that this tendency has evolved as an evolutionary tactic to protect us against other future life threatening or negative events. So what we learn here is that repetition reinforces remembrance. So I guess that's like our second principle, which is that our brains learn through repetition. So if our brains are linking on a cellular level, our brains are also learning through repetition. Kathy: So I have a question. What about grief? What happens when the memory itself is what causes the pain? Kevin: Yeah, exactly. That's such a great question. Repetition is great when we're learning a new skill, right? If you're shooting free throws, you keep shooting again and again and again to try to learn that perfect repetition, that perfect flow, the stance, the way that the ball sits on the palm of your hand. Practice is so necessary, for when you're learning a new skill. Why doesn't it follow, then, that the more we experience loss, the easier grief gets? Right. If our brain learns through repetition, you would think that the more you lose, the better you get at grief, right? Kevin: And that's just not the way that grief works. And I think the answer to that lies in this third principle here and that's that our brains are wired to remember pain. So like when you burn yourself when you're cooking, you're like, oh ouch, that pan gets hot. I have to remember next time when I'm cooking with this pan, the handle will get hot. I need to be careful about that. And so experiencing loss and pain actually strengthens the brain's neural pathways, which essentially links every new loss to every previous loss we've ever experienced. Kevin: So our brains are quite literally linking our losses. That's our fourth principle here: Our brains are linking our losses. Kathy: That makes complete sense. Even if as I think about how I remember things that are very painful and how they remind me of other times that are painful and if someone talks about something, it will trigger a memory of that. So I'm wondering, how do you recommend that our listeners engage in this linking practice? Kevin: Yeah, that's really good. I think there's two things. One is just remembering when you're experiencing a new loss and you feel like the experience of that loss is way harder than what the event may call for, your brain is likely linking this loss to other previous losses. Kevin: So those of you that have had the terrible experience of being in a car accident may have felt, felt some other memories from your childhood or other losses. Breakups, broken relationships, those memories arise in those difficult experiences. And that's because that newer trauma can bring up experiences of past traumas and past losses. And so just the awareness that what you're facing today may feel heavier and harder than what it actually is, and that's okay. Kevin: And it's an opportunity to tend to what you need in that moment through that experience, but also the other pains that you've experienced in your life. So just being aware that your brain is naturally linking is probably a good first step. But there's also a spiritual practice that you can develop or an exercise that you can develop that will help you to show you visually the way that your brain is linking some of your losses. So those of you that participated in the listing exercise last time, if you want to grab that list out or listen to that episode and create a list of losses, you can build on that exercise, in this new exercise. Kevin: So as you're looking at that list of losses, what I would like you to do is to start thinking about the ways in which the list of losses are interconnected. That process may be natural for you where you begin to draw those connections quite easily and readily. Kevin: If you feel like you're struggling to think about how those list of what feels like random losses are connected, I want you to choose one big loss on that list of losses. Whether it's one of the biggest losses in your life or one of the most recent losses in your life, start there. Kevin: Write that word down in the middle of a blank piece of paper, and as you look at that word, start to. The other little losses that have come as a result of that big loss, and write those words smaller around that word that's in the middle of your page. Kevin: What will begin to develop here is a flowchart. What you can focus on is the size of the words that you're writing. The really big losses use a bigger font. Some of the other little losses, you can write them in a smaller font. You can start to connect them one by one, using lines or circles. However that starts to play out in your brain, start to make sense of it. Whatever that looks like for you and your experience, get creative with it. Kevin: There's no right or wrong way to do this, but what you should see by the end of it is a pretty messy page of losses that are interconnected by lines and shapes. And hopefully it begins to look on the page a little bit, like it feels in your brain and in your heart. Kathy: Thanks, Kevin. That was a very helpful activity. We just want to say if you're needing extra support and help through your grief, feel free to reach out to us and whatever else you may be coping with, blessings to you.

In this episode, Andy chats with Kevin Williams an expert in ChatGPT and A.I. ========== References: www.SprinklerNerd.com/inkworks www.InkWorks.ai ========== Kevin: You know, it's not going to be AI that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: Hello my friends. This is Andy. Welcome to episode 129. Of the Sprinkler Nerd Show, where it's my job to speak with world-class water and technology innovators from all walks of life so that it may inspire you and your business. My guest today is Kevin Williams. Who is Kevin Williams? Kevin has been featured in Inc.Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and even as a Shark Tank business. Before starting his current company, www.inkworks.ai, Kevin was the former operating partner and CEO of www.balls.co. And before that, Kevin was the founder and CEO of Brush Hero, which is the product you may have seen on shark tank. Our conversation today will be focused on AI tools like Chat GPT, and how you can implement these tools in your business. So with that, Kevin, welcome to the show.  Kevin: Thanks so much for having me, Andy.  Andy: I cannot wait to talk about AI and how service businesses, contractors, irrigators, and landscapers can learn a little bit from you, who has spent a lot of time, uh, really becoming an expert in this field. And I think that before we jump into that, I'd like to ask how you got your start in business and as an entrepreneur.  Kevin: It's, it's funny. I actually come from a family of entrepreneurs ever since I was about 10 or 12. My family was traveling all over the country with various business ideas and it was just part of the fabric of my life. Kevin: Sadly, that story doesn't actually end particularly well. So sometimes I, I, I glib about it that I come from a family of failed entrepreneurs because in a period in my adolescence, my parents lost their business, they lost their house. They lost their marriage, like all of this horrible stuff. So young Kevin decides that a good idea is to not be an entrepreneur and instead go be a chemist. Kevin: Well, fates have a way of, uh, of messing with plans like that. Um, I went on the straight and narrow path. I did a bunch of interesting stuff and I ended up at pretty good business school. And in business school, I entered a business plan competition just as a part of a, like an elective entrepreneurship class. Kevin: And I won. And I won a bunch of money that came along with it for seed funding. Um, so I ended up starting my first business having done everything in my power not to be an entrepreneur. I was like, oh heck, here's an opportunity. I'm just going to take a left turn in my life and chase this now. Um, that business didn't necessarily go anywhere, but it introduced me to the angel and venture community in my town in Washington DC and uh I ended up operating businesses for a high net worth, uh, individuals for a bunch of years and my own entrepreneurial journey kicked in again, where I saw that there was just so much waste in a lot of startup companies that people really didn't know how to demonstrate. Kevin: What we marketers would call product market fit, and instead they just dump bucket loads of money into things trying to prove a concept. Uh, and when I saw the rise of social media, I saw an opportunity to rapidly test concepts, um, without necessarily spending a lot of money. And that pivoted into a whole series of businesses where I would either license or buy intellectual property. Kevin: And my dirty little secret was that when a patent was pitched to me, I could go out onto social media and test some concept around that product. I could throw a bunch of traffic at it, see if anybody cared. If people cared about the idea, then I would license the patent and then I would already know that I could get on to first base with the product. Kevin: Was it going to be a home run? Who knows, but I could get on to first base. So that led to the Brush Hero product, which I had licensed. I'd licensed the underlying IP from a gentleman in the UK, um, and several other patents in homewares and kitchenwares. Uh, I sold, um, or I, yeah, I exited Brush Hero in about 2019. Kevin: And, um, then I ended up running, uh, a large international brand. Usually I don't say, but yes, it was Balls. co.  Andy: Fuck it, you can say it on this channel, on this show.  Kevin: Yes, I was a manscaper. Um, so Balls was the largest, uh, manscaping company in Europe. Uh, you can probably already tell I'm not the guy who tells Balls jokes all day. Kevin: So it was, it was pretty fun to dive into a brand like that. British sensibility, really cheeky humor. And, um, our goal was to drive it into, uh, the U S with that sort of humor. Um, the realities of running a UK European based business from the West coast of the U S not so great. A lot of early mornings, a lot of late nights. Kevin: So, mm-hmm. , in part when I saw just the I I, I, I like to think that I immediately saw the opportunities that generative AI would represent when G P T launched in November of last year, and I left and dove feet first into generative AI and practical applications of it. Um, And I've been rooting around for business models in my M. Kevin: O. You know, test some ideas, test a lot of different things, um, to see what might take root. And from there, ink works is one of several different products, projects that I'm working on, um, as well as doing executive coaching and executive coaching oriented around a I capacity development within organizations. Kevin: Because one challenge of all of this Is that coming up with a one size fits all solution just isn't practical. So business leaders need to develop a framework around the way that they think about AI and how they're going to safely lever it in their business. Um, as opposed to just looking for a magic bullet type. Kevin: Platform that they can just buy. That's going to solve all of their problems. Um, that's going to be very interesting to, to, to see how that develops. And it's been fun to, to, to work with other business leaders to try and identify how their particular business, be it, you know, in landscaping or direct consumer or. Kevin: Business to business SAS type stuff. Well, how can they actually deploy this stuff right away to make changes in their business? Because, you know, the, the adage has become. You know, it's not going to be AI that, that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: I love that. So there's a couple takeaways. I'm going to start with the last thing you said, because it reminds me of a great expression that I can't remember who the author is, but I use it all the time. And that is the company that kills you will look nothing like you. So when you said AI may not replace the person, it's going to be a company that knows how to use AI that becomes your competitor. Andy: That's a great example of another company that It looks nothing like you, but could end up killing your business and you were running balls. co and this is not the right time to talk about balls. co, but we don't actually talk about a lot of balls in this industry. We do talk about a lot of nipples though. Andy: There are many different types of nipples in the irrigation industry, believe it or not. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to put that out there inside joke for those that are listening. We don't talk about balls, but we like to talk about nipples, talk about  Kevin: turf.  Andy: And turf. Yep. Totally. You can talk about turf. Andy: There's a lot to, a lot to play with there. Not last week. It's been probably three weeks now. Kevin and I both went to a conference. I would say that's just for shark tank companies, just for those who have. been on Shark Tank, whether it aired or whether it was just taped, because we know that most of the businesses that tape don't actually go to air. Andy: So we were both at the conference, and that's when I was learning about what you were doing in the AI space, because Kevin was actually presenting at the conference. And I thought this would be great, Kevin, to have you come and share some of your Uh, real practical world experience with AI, you know, and how you are coaching people to use it, some of the value that it has, and maybe even some of the best practices or things you should do first, second, third, or even how do you optimize the responses of, let's say, chat GPT versus a beginner that just goes in and asks it a basic question. Andy: So very, very excited, and especially because this industry is tends to lag behind.  Kevin: So first, just to back up, I we were sort of operating on the assumption that everybody knows what this is, and I'm pretty sure everybody has at least heard of it at this point. That is this magic machine that can that you can talk to, and it can it can come up with responses. Kevin: Um, but it is actually a success story. That's it's one of those overnight successes. That's eight years in the making that billions and billions of dollars has been poured into what are called neural networks that allow So Uh, highly abstract patterns to to interact with each other such that the magic machine can output based on a predictive model. Kevin: What might come next from a thought? So that's essentially what it's doing. It's predicting from the sum of the human Internet knowledge. What? The next likely thought can be, and it is absolutely amazing what it can do, but the underlying fundamentals of neural networks have been around for a long time. Kevin: The novelty and what was just completely mind blowing for most of us was the Interaction, the interactive effect. Like if you leave a bunch of wonky people together who are studying neural networks, they know how neural networks work. They don't need this chat functionality. What the chat functionality did is it made it much more accessible for we mere mortals to be able to lever these tools, um, on on even on a basic level, as opposed to going through a whole machine learning type process. Kevin: So These are predictive models. They're taking the sum of human knowledge and they are outputting the next likely. So the first thing to understand about them is that They don't necessarily know or care if anything is particularly accurate. So, this is what you hear about in terms of hallucinations. And hallucinations are just wrong facts. Kevin: Like, the AI is not particularly good with facts. It's very good at expressing A dubious fact in a very convincing way, which should be a giant red flag for most of us who produce any sort of content that particularly in a subject matter that's relatively technical like what you guys are talking about, um, it could easily. Kevin: It could easily just lie to you. So the first thing that I tell people from a, from a mindset perspective is that you need to calibrate what you're doing with the AI based on who you are and what you know, so picture like a Venn diagram, you've got this. One circle, that's the size of my house, that is the sum total of human knowledge. Kevin: And then you have this intersecting circle that's much smaller, which is the sum total of who you are and what you know and what you know about irrigation and, uh, and lawn care and everything else. Right? And the intersection of those two circles is where the power really lies. So If you, the farther you drift away from that, the more likely you are to get into dangerous territory. Kevin: So, I know a lot about digital marketing. I know a lot about business operations and such. That is a core of who I am. But, if I drift away and I start talking with the AI about neuropsychology, I might get interesting results, but I have no way of calibrating whether or not those results are actually useful or, or practical or not. Kevin: I'm just leaving it to the AI. So when you say  Andy: calibrate, what does, what does that mean? What does calibrate mean? So  Kevin: it's you know what you know. So imagine, you know, most of us have have businesses that are large enough that you have developing staff like there. There are other people that are involved in the business and you you take, let's just say a new sales guy and You, The way If you're the senior sales guy or you're the business owner, you might tell the sales guy to go off and do X, Y, and Z. Kevin: And then you're going to look at the output and you're going to, you're going to coach them, you're going to push them towards an output that you know is going to work in because you have this expertise in the knowledge. It's the same as true for the AI. The AI doesn't necessarily know what it's talking about, but if you were to look at the output. Kevin: Your art as a business person and just as an individual is being able to identify the value in that output. And if it's something you don't know anything about, that's going to be really hard to do. So if you're, if you're looking at, at creating something that's entirely new that you don't know anything about, there are ways to use AI that you can do that. Kevin: But it's not as effective as Amplifying things that you already do know. So in a lot of organizations, let's just take a lawyer, for example, like you could you could call a lawyer and say, Hey, I need to set up a trust document and whatever. And right now the M. O. would be that lawyer would probably record the call or take notes on the call. Kevin: They would go to their associate. Their associate would look through their templates about it. Trust. They'd adapt it to Wyoming. They put it back to the senior attorney who would then approve it, edit it, give it red lines, hand it back to the guy or gal and then process it and then finalize it and then send it out because that senior attorney really knows their stuff or you hope they really know their stuff. Kevin: They can do that. That is their art. That is their job. That is their profession. But now you can bypass all of that, that associates job. Not so good for the associate, right? But you could output that document and be able to read it and have it done in 15 seconds, but you can't abdicate your professionalism and your art. Kevin: You can't just trust it. You're going to get 80% of the way there in 15 seconds, but that last 20% of editing and clarifying and redlining, um, you still own that at least at the moment. So. The lawyer knows a lot about law. The business guy has actually read a ton of contracts, right? Like, I've probably read a thousand contracts in my career. Kevin: I'm not a lawyer. I happen to be married to one. But, I... Not a lawyer, but if I need to create a new contract I can actually get 90% of the way there So let's just say 70% of the way there Because I know how contracts are written right and I can read it and I can interpret Okay, this indemnification clause makes sense to me The smart move is to then send it on to the lawyer, but I didn't have to spend the 500 for him to draft the first version. Kevin: I just need to spend the 250 for him to take a pass at it at the other side, because I know enough to be dangerous. Now, if it were to get into case law, statutes, regulations, things like that, it could easily lie to you, and that's out of my realm. Like the lawyer might recognize that that case isn't a real case or that that statute isn't accurate, but dang, if the AI isn't going to be very, very compelling in its, it's sort of its defense of its own facts that it's putting forward, but that's the. Andy: So, so would it be. Would it be safe to say that an attorney who uses Chet GPT, if Chet GPT or the AI can do the 70% as you describe, but because they're the expert in that field, they can review that 30% and get it right. So that if it's lying, they can correct it because they have the expert knowledge in that core business. Kevin: Exactly, exactly. And this is where I like to focus when I'm talking to people about it. There's a lot of water is wet out there. Oh, you can just. Have it write a giant blog post for you. Okay. That's cool. You know, it's cool to watch it do its output. It's like, it's sort of mind blowing if you haven't seen it by all means, totally go sign up and see that because it's really cool, but that doesn't allow you to abdicate from your art and your expertise. Kevin: So, you know, your audience knows a lot about lawn care and it like, like you can have it create a blog post about certain patterns of irrigation and you're going to be able to decide whether or not those are accurate or not. But if you want to reach into topics that you don't know much about, even if they're close to you, you can. Kevin: But you have to have either some sort of validation mechanism such that you can determine whether it's accurate or not, um, or not care, so. Because  Andy: then if somebody who is an expert in that category reads it, they may think, Oh my gosh, what is Kevin talking about here? He doesn't know what he's talking about. Andy: This is not accurate.  Kevin: Exactly. Like imagine, you know, I, as I understand it, that, uh, you know, grass varietals change by different continents and there's expertise in South America and they're, you know, sprinkler nerds in South America and like you pontificating about, you know, Argentine varieties of. Kevin: Bermuda grass, like that person is going to be able to smell a rat because that's their, their expertise. And worse, this is sort of meta as there's an industrial scale opportunity for content production. If all of us. I'm not going to get noble about this, but like if all of us are out there producing bad content, the AIs will be trained on the bad content. Kevin: So there is going to be value. Is that the  Andy: garbage in garbage out analogy? Yes.  Kevin: Garbage in garbage out. And at some point it all reverts to the mean. So from the segment of your audience that is out there and doing direct to consumer type marketing, don't be, don't be tempted to do just. Industrial scale output. Kevin: Your art has to be producing new information from somewhere. But what AI can do is it can make some of that new information really accessible. Like there's a lot of geeky in this sort of field, right? And there's scholarly articles about soil density and all this other stuff. One really cool use of AI is to be able to contextualize something like a scholarly document and make it accessible to people who have expertise that can do something interesting to it. Kevin: So, you know, somebody comes out with a paper from the university of Florida, as far as water absorption rates, whatever it is, and you can then use the AI to simplify that overly complicated document to a way that it falls into that zone of expertise and art. And then you can actually. Add to the corpus of information that's out there on the web in an additive way because that paper was never really going to get found. Kevin: It was somebody's PhD thesis or whatever. But now you Andy can like actually make that accessible in a way that increases the store of human knowledge and from a Strategic perspective, I do suspect that, that, that brands, particularly in the internet who can truly add novel value are going to be rewarded by search engines, by advertising platforms, et cetera, and that those who simply put it out like high volume garbage are going to get severely punished. Kevin: And, and I'm  Andy: thinking that likely the level one knowledge. Which may address the most frequently asked questions about lawn care on the internet will probably be garbage in garbage out and stuff that everybody talks about. I love what you said about finding a scholarly article and what came to my mind is that there actually are scholarly articles from, I believe, University of Florida on, you know, lawn care and let's say soil moisture sensor technology. Andy: And my question would be, number one, Perhaps this would be a great training example for us to do live like, Hey, let's grab a couple articles and use that to produce some really awesome content using AI. And could we do that? You know, could we take an article of a research on soil moisture sensor, not right now about soil moisture sensor technology, real case studies and recreate it in a, in a, in a way that everybody could understand it simplified, but on a deep topic  Kevin: like that. Kevin: So this is, let's walk through the practical example. The example is yes, that would be really cool, right? So first you're going to find the article and then let's just be practical. First, if you're not paying for GPT, pay for it. It's 20 bucks a month and it gives you access to GPT 4, but more importantly, it gives you advanced access to advanced processing. Kevin: So the, the 3. 5 was the first model 4. 0 is where it is now. 4. 0 is roughly 10 times. It's more powerful as far as the level of connections. It's also slower, um, which can be a little bit agonizing in a demo because it writes really slowly. Um, but it allows you to contextualize. These are, these are all terms that are going to be so common in the next few years, but right now we're all kind of bending our heads around it that you have to set context. Kevin: Like, uh, I like this particular example, like you go, you stand at the top of a, of a building at, uh, you know, Times Square, you stand in the middle of Times Square and you say, what should I read? And people are going to have all kinds of opinions. They're going to have like, Oh, you should read the Bible. Kevin: You should read, you know, Tom Clancy. You should read, you know, the, the sprinkler digest of 2022. The Idiot's Guide to Landscaping. But that's because, yes, of course, you know, scintillating reading, right? But that's because nobody knows anything about you. So one of the first keys here is you have to set the context of the conversation such that you're narrowing, you're narrowing what you're after. Kevin: So from a practical perspective in GPT 4, you can start out a conversation by saying, I'm a landscaping expert. Um, I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of lawn care practices using scholarly articles. And it's going to say something like, yay. Next you set the context for the conversation because you could just. Kevin: Continue. And this is where it gets dangerous. Like, let's just chat about lawn care. And you're going to come up with all kinds of interesting stuff. In the back and forth that it's, it's, as you're, you're expanding. It knows who you are. It kind of knows what you're looking for. But now, you want to refine that context further. Kevin: And the way that you do that is by contextualizing something like a scholarly article. And there are tools, they're called plug ins within GPT 4, that allow you to do that. And that's simply by Letting it ingest the PDF, and now this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about the body of the knowledge, of world knowledge about lawn care. Kevin: We now have established minimal context that you have expertise in lawn care, and now specifically what we're going to talk about is this scholarly article. Like, use, oh mighty GPT, use your chat based functionality to make this easy, but this is what we're talking about. So now you've set the context for it. Kevin: And you're going to do something like, let's ask for a summary, um, that would be applicable and interesting information for an audience that is focused in on lawn care science. And it's going to come up with a bunch of ideas. Okay, cool. Now. Let's say, oh, okay, I like idea number three, that, um, you know, I don't know, relative humidity and the impact of, uh, water absorption rates on whatever it is. Kevin: Now let's dive into that, and let's put a marketing hat on. Okay, let's produce content, a blog post about this that, that, that incorporates interesting facts from the scholarly, the scholarly doc, document, and dresses it up with a little bit of marketing speak. Okay, cool. Now, because we're a marketer, we need to put headlines on it. Kevin: So let's come up with 10 possible headlines for this. So now you have 10 possible headlines for the article. Now let's get a little bit wonky because this is a scholarly article. Scholarly articles often come along with data sets. Okay. So you could actually ingest a dataset using the, the, the code interpreter function within GPT and say something completely simple, like some giant dataset, and just say, help me visualize the data in this dataset in a few different ways that would be interesting to my audience, my audience. Kevin: Like you've already defined who your audience is, right? It's another cool part. Like it has permanence. Um, So it's remembering  Andy: what you gave it earlier when you said, you know, my audience is homeowners, you know, interested in black, it, it,  Kevin: it, it stores that. So we've, we all, we all, I'm not going to say the name because it'll trigger, but the S device on a, on an Apple, if I were to say the name and I would say, Hey, what's, what's the weather in park city tomorrow? Kevin: It's going to have an answer. And if I simply said, what's the weather on Saturday? It's going to say, what are you talking about? Because it has no permanence to it at all. You have to start over in that conversation. Permanence in GPT is so cool. So just a practical tip. You have chats. that maintain that context. Kevin: And some of my chats are now hundreds of pages along because I'm chatting through specific business models and it knows that that's what we're talking about. It doesn't need to like remind itself. I can go back months later and bring something up and all that context is set and you get much better results once the context is set. Kevin: So what you've done with that. So if you, if you have a  Andy: thought. Or you have another question, but it's really related to some other things you've already asked that you'll instead of starting a new conversation, if that's what it's called, you'll go back to your other one and add it into the dialogue. Andy: Yep,  Kevin: exactly. Just write, don't even need to be like, do you remember what we're talking about? No, of course it remembers what it's talking about. It's a machine, right? Um, but imagine you've put out that blog post and, um, somebody now in the community has some insightful question and you're like, I don't know what the answer is. Kevin: Dump the question in and say, this was a community conversation. Can you, can, can you come up with some sort of, can you help me answer this question? And it's going to use the context of your chat. The conversation you have, it's going to use the document that's been set as context. And it's going to try and answer that question within that much narrower context, um, than just the wild west of the internet. Kevin: So taking it like just taking it to the logical conclusion again, as a marketer, you need visuals. So now we haven't talked about the visual tools at all. I've been very GPT focused and GPT is not the only language model out there. I just, it currently is the strongest, but. In my opinion, but there will be many, there's no real barriers to this except gazillions of dollars, which people like Mark Zuckerberg have. Kevin: So you're gonna see a lot of different models and this is just, it's going, they're all gonna be out there. So people will choose their poison. Do you know,  top  Andy: of mind what a couple other models are that we could share list in the,  Kevin: so Google Bard is quite powerful, and it's not like Google wasn't working on this. Kevin: They missed a tick. They have business model problems with this that are pretty obvious. You know, they make 160 billion a year off of advertising. And what does advertising mean if. Like you get the answer, it's not so great. So they  Andy: also not perusing the internet and clicking lots of times and visiting lots of pages and getting served. Andy: Lots of visuals. We're  Kevin: in that space, right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's going to be an interesting existential crisis for them. They seem confident about it. So I think they have a plan, but they're constrained. My, my worry is big brands like that get more constrained by reputational impact. We all have heard the stories of the New York times, I think. Kevin: Kevin Roos, um, who like the AI tried to convince him to leave his wife and stuff. Um, like open AI, which is GPT can kind of get away with that with its. I'm a 10 billion startup thing, but Google has to worry about that. So naturally they've limited their model more. So there are all these instructions and there's a term that's, that's, that's. Kevin: It may be permanent, but at the moment, I'm not quite sure it's called a constitution. And it's this idea that there's, there's an operating, we call the, the, the, the, anytime you type something into a LLM, it's a prompt, but there are all these hidden prompts that are behind the scenes. And those hidden prompts are, let  Andy: me catch you right there. Andy: You, you, you mentioned a buzzword that I want to make sure everybody knows you said.  Kevin: Large language model. So a GPT is one of the large language models. Um, Lama from Meta and Facebook is another one. Um, Google has its own that, that underpins BARD. Um, these are all, they've all done the similar thing where they've subsumed. Kevin: The Internet and are making these connections. Um, and then, yeah, that's a GPT is not the generalized term term. It's that it has that has to do with technical language transformation. So GPT is actually a technical term. Yeah. So anytime you put a prompt into these things, that's a set of instructions that the AI is then trying to follow. Kevin: But there's a whole set of hidden prompts behind the scenes that are basically don't be psychotic, like Try not to say like racist stuff. Try not to like incite violence. Like, don't try, don't answer legal questions in a way that could be misleading. Like, it's, it's, it's like this whole giant set of things and, you know, building that constitution into the model, um, the, the, sort of the strength of that constitution ties into, this is slightly wonky, but it ties into the, the, the, how crazy the outputs can be. Kevin: And there's another term in there that's called temperature. So the higher the temperature, the more likely it is to go batshit. That it's going to start making And what does a high  Andy: temperature mean? What,  Kevin: what is that? So it's a, it's like a continuum, like low temperature is cold. Just the facts, man. And stick to the fact Right. Kevin: This is what Okay, I see. High temperature is, we're going to loosen up. That loose that that that neural network and you know, I'm being I'm trying to paraphrase a little bit But like it's gonna loosen up the neural network and allow the network to make kind of wilder connections between things  Andy: Okay, so it's called something that's extremely factual like one plus one is two would that be very very cold  Kevin: not factual So that you got to be super careful like it's pretty okay. Kevin: All right high level of probability that 1 plus 1 is 2, but, but some of these models are very bad at math. Um, because they don't, that's not what they do. They're, they're predicting that one thought follows the golden rule. Okay, we have a lot of information about the golden rule. We, we are really, really comfortable that the golden rule is due unto others, right? Kevin: So that low temperature, it's going to connect this extremely high temperature. It may come up with something like Hmm. Maybe that means something different. Hmm. Let's just like connect things. So it gets creative on its own? It's creative. Don't anthropomorphize, but it's, it's easy to do, but it is, um, it just gets looser in its neural connections and it can be very powerful in terms of being extremely creative. Kevin: There's an example that's, uh, I like that. So a high  Andy: temperature means more creative.  Kevin: Yes. And most of the models by default operate at a relatively low temperature because, That's where the you should leave your life wife and marry me stuff comes in where it starts like It's crazy. Like, don't get me wrong. Kevin: Like, researchers in this space, they anthropomorphize it because it's doing stuff that they don't understand.  Andy: Well, I'm just wondering, um, number one, I'll ask you, and you could answer it now or later, is this, is this regulated? Because if it's high temp and it's super creative, which means it may not be accurate, should there be a disclaimer in the response that must be included if you use the tool? Andy: Because the answer may or may not be correct because it's high temp and where, where do we draw the line? Or is there a line being drawn on telling someone disclosing the use of the tool?  Kevin: So this is where Europe is heading. Europe is heading to a disclosure of AI, and I think we may see something similar. Kevin: To this in the U S at some point, but it's a commons issue. Like that sort of disclosure is only as good as the compliance of the community and the enforcement mechanisms that make that happen. And I have doubts having lived in the digital marketing trends as long as I have that. If there's an edge to be had, people don't have to use these models. Kevin: So that's, we haven't really talked  Andy: about that. And right now I can write a blog post about whatever I want, factual or not. It's up to someone else to actually decide if it's right or not. I don't have to, there's no disclosure I have to put on it currently.  Kevin: And you bury it in your terms anyway, in the bottom of the fine print somewhere. Kevin: Yeah. It's like an affiliate disclosure that, um, it is possible that artificial intelligence was in some way used to construct this particular note, this particular route. Right. So maybe by  Andy: default, someone would have to trust the author, i. e. trust Kevin, trust Andy, trust the author. Then you'll trust the words, but don't trust the words. Andy: All by themselves, unless you trust the source, which is essentially where we're at today anyway.  Kevin: Yep, exactly. Do you trust the source? So authority, you have a lot of authority in this space, because you have such a great community, and you know, there's a lot of energy and output and such. That is why search engines reward you, or I assume reward you for that output. Kevin: Mm hmm. The same will be true in these models that, that, and that's the winners will be those who have a lot of authority and a lot of credibility and that will make it very hard for new entrants to, to batter through. In my opinion, there will always be shenanigans or tactics that are designed to like break through the model and try and get something that to get attention. Kevin: Um, but I think it's going to be a lot harder than it has been with a search engine optimization SEO over the years.  Andy: Let me ask you a quick question. Do you think a service business? Landscape contractor, landscape maintenance, service business, irrigation, you know, they could write an article about, let's say, turf grass management, and they could write that article with the audience being the world, yet that, with the audience being the world, that pool is extremely competitive, which makes me think that they should use That's AI to write something more hyperlocal so that they're found with somebody in their service area, and that's what matters. Andy: It's like lawn care maintenance in Peoria, Illinois, and being the expert there, but not Santa Fe, New Mexico.  Kevin: So I think, would that be the right way to think of it? I think it would. And you and I chatted briefly about Sunday. I mean, that might be a polarizing company in your world, but they do from a sales mechanism. Kevin: They're very, very good about using satellite imagery and sort of loose connections about soil density and soil construction in order to get you into their marketing funnel. And they can do that because they were extremely well funded. And, you know, they, they spent a lot of money trying to figure this out. Kevin: And the fact is there's really nothing right now preventing a Peoria, Illinois provider who knows about soil to be able to output like sort of micro geo content. Based on the information that they have to, to educate the Peoria, Illinois population about the very specific aspects of their soil on a level that someday can never touch because it's just microform. Kevin: They're too  Andy: big, right? Exactly. They're the authority in this particular area based on their experience just in this area, which someone who lives in that area, they would want to hire someone. That knows a thing or two about that specific location.  Kevin: So imagine you have your scholarly article, let's put a few of them in there that are about like how to manage, you know, pH, whatever it is, and then you can put a data set or even even sort of qualitative information. Kevin: Well, I happen to know that Be embarrassed to show you guys my lawn, but the, uh, like I happen to know I'm in a high clay area and like, I don't really know what that means, but like, you, if you feed all of this in, you could come up with a very practical micro guide that's very effective without necessarily having to do the whole lift of, of, of doing the brain dump. Kevin: Of everything, you know, about high clay environments. Um, you could use the AI as your assistant to relatively rapidly output that information. So, I mean, honestly, that's, that's very practical. Like anybody listening to this. If you're that hypothetical Peoria, Illinois, like provider, you should totally do this. Kevin: There's SEO value to that, like as far as having content that, that a local, like long care tips in Peoria, you know, right now you might actually find, if you were to type that in, there are all of the dynamically generated, like SEO articles about there that do that. But that's kind of crap content on the inside. Kevin: If you have authority as somebody who's in that community. Plus, you know, being a professional organization there, plus offering this micro content that's useful to people. You wouldn't have bothered before this. Now you can do it. You can do it this in like a half an hour. Like this is, it's, it's way easier than it, than it would have been. Kevin: And. Is it going to change your business, but is it going to, on the edges, allow you to build out just this, this corpus of credibility that, that in a very SEO sort of way can follow you over the years? Yeah, that's very plausible. Wow, this  Andy: is really hands on. I mean, I think we could, there could be a ton of value in actually doing a live workshop that could be recorded for people to see later, but take similar businesses, i. Andy: e. irrigation, contracting companies that number one, all have to have a website. I'll know exactly the type of work that they do and all know exactly their, who their best customer ideally is create some content, you know, copy pasted onto their blog, you know, know what the traffic is now. And then over. Andy: let's say three, six months, what happens after the end of six months? Could we get a cohort together that becomes like number one ranked in all of their local areas through a quick training demo seminar?  Kevin: There's value in that. I think that'd be  Andy: fun. Wow. Okay. Well, we can't show people actually how to use chat GPT today, but I love how you talked about some of the context because I feel like that's what I've had to learn the most about is not just asking it a simple question, but creating that frame. Andy: Um, and believe it or not, I learned it from my son, who was apparently was taught how to use this in college, and he's a computer science major, and you know, he uses it actually to correct some of his code when it doesn't work, uh, among other things, but he was the one that taught me you got to basically, you know, tell it who it is, what its job is, all those sorts of things to frame it. Andy: Which I had no idea about and I think that a lot of people may use again Just chat GPT and then say, you know, I tried it, but it didn't give me the results. So yeah,  Kevin: I'm done And so let's let's wrap a little bit of truth practical other practical ways that I think that everybody should be using it and cool, it's you know ranging from just dead simple to much more complicated but the Most simple bit is none of us have any excuse to have blank page syndrome again Like, some people are talented content creators. Kevin: A lot of people aren't. I am not. I, I actually can write, but it is an agonizing process for me. I'm not that guy who just can hammer something. And I have blank page syndrome. I sit there, I look at the page, and I kind of play with some words, and I'm like, eh. We  Andy: don't have that. Then your mind starts to hurt, and you'll go, eh, I'll, I'll try it again tomorrow. Andy: And then it's just repeat, repeat, repeat, and you never frickin do it.  Kevin: So now it's like I need to write a letter to X, Y, and Z client, and this is the sort of stuff that it can't contain, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and bam, you've got a draft. And then my art and my effort is spent on revising that draft and personalizing it and putting the me into that draft. Kevin: But I'm already, I've gone from zero to eight, like in 15 seconds or, you know, it's spending a little bit of time. Going back and forth with it working on tone, you know, bringing that down a little bit. So that's one It's just you you don't need blank page syndrome again Like you just start with something and then work them in related is a brainstorming partner is like Trying to isolate good ideas. Kevin: What's a bad omnipotent Personal assistant, um, next to you who knows everything about everything and occasionally lies to you, but they're very enthusiastic about it. So pretty cool to have like this brilliant thing that you can like bounce ideas off of and none of it's perfect, but boy, does it come up with some just interesting things, particularly if you, if it's like come 10 actionable headlines for this topic, like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Kevin: Like, Oh, that's neat. Let's explore this a little bit more. Um, also related. Um, you know, I think a lot of small companies struggle with creative design and creative development and are frankly beholden to a lot of creative like people and agencies out there that charge a lot of money for it. Being able to use this as sort of a creative designer assistant, again, you're not going to get to eight or nine in this case, if you're not already creative, but being able to use it to get to, you know, six, seven, eight, and like maybe script out a video or a piece of content and have an idea of what that's going to take to get it done. Kevin: Oh, you know, what sort of camera angles might I use? And then you walk into the conversation. with that creative partner, and you're way more equipped. You have a good idea of what the storyboard looks like and what it feels like. And then their art is layered on top of that because they don't know your business. Kevin: Like as much as we all love the idea of having a creative agency that knows everything about us, they're busy and they might know something about your business, but you will always know your business better than they will. So if you can kind of skip that phase and get to the, the, the creative production part. Kevin: That can be super, super useful, um, correcting documents, um, or assessing documents rapidly. Just, just being able to absorb information like in your guy's world, like every time a new regulation comes out or if, uh, you know, scholarly articles, if you're a real geek, you know, whatever it is, being able to rapidly ingest that information in a way that, that you just, you have it in your to do list. Kevin: Okay. Like I have family members who love to send me Atlantic articles. Like they're always like. 15 pages long and like, I just can't, I like don't have the bandwidth to read it. So I'll put the article in GPT. I'll summarize it. I'll frame who I am, uh, and like be able to come up with a summary that, uh, that, that, that is appropriate for who I am, that, and then I can decide if I'm going to engage in whatever, wow. Kevin: The first thing  Andy: I think of when you say that is, could we take, let's say the national plumbing code and use it to help understand what the requirements are for irrigators as it relates to the national plumbing code on what you can and can't do and what the laws and regulations are.  Kevin: Theoretically. Yeah, you could. Kevin: Wow. Your art. Don't forget your art. Like, you know, there's a code inspectors, like even you guys probably don't totally know, like, Where that line is, and it would make me a little nervous, um, to do that, but I bet you'd get some pretty meaningful output from it. Um, it would be an interesting test actually. Kevin: And just maybe  Andy: a summary format, like, Hey, can you summarize the national plumbing code and what irrigation companies should know are responsible for, you know, in a  Kevin: summary. So I literally did something like this. It was an OSHA regulation for scissor lift safety. And, um, I put in the OSHA reg and I asked it questions about like, this is not something I was doing as a hobby. Kevin: There's, I have a client who is in this world, just to be clear that I, yeah. You  Andy: weren't just going to rent a, yeah,  Kevin: a lift and go out there. But I was, I was, I was. Clean your windows. About like, you know, I have this situation, like there's a two 20, um, junction right here. Like how far away does the scissor lift need to be? Kevin: And it did an ad, it did a very good job. And I think let's think ahead a little bit. Well, what, like this is all cool. Right. But. Man, this is going to be powerful. Like you imagine that you're an onsite contractor and you've run into X, Y, and Z scenario, like right on your phone, like, Hey, I've run into this. Kevin: You know, there's a T junction of whatever flow rate. And how does this apply to, um, you know, the code of. Peoria, Illinois and flow rates that will yeah, no doubt about it. Right.  Andy: Exactly. So today, uh, we've got something called friction loss, uh, friction loss charts. So those listening likely know what a friction loss chart is. Andy: It'll tell you what the PSI loss is per hundred feet based on a specific flow rate and a specific pipe. And if somebody were out in the field today, it's very hard to have all of those things memorized. It's actually. probably impossible to have them all recalled in your head, but just to be able to ask, ask it, Hey, what's the PSI loss on 2. Andy: 5 inch PVC pipe or a hundred feet. Cause you want to make a change to your design. You need some quick engineering facts.  Kevin: Sounds interesting. That's going to be a thing. It will, it may already be like, that's, this is changing. So, so fast. I mean, I literally was in the middle of the presentation and when Andy and I were in Vegas and a new feature was released in GPT. Kevin: As I refreshed my screen, and I was like, Oh, that's new. Yeah, it's, it's very hard to keep up with. Um, and the possibilities are virtually endless. So, yeah. So what other things? So business businesses, you all have a bunch of customers. You could dump your customer data into it and ask it to visualize it and visualize where the clusters, you know, you have sales staff that are out and they're, they're covering things. Kevin: Um, It's a bit of a lift to do some sort of geographic sales analysis of how effective you're being. But if you dump the data in and you can tell it to visualize, um, where all your customers are, like almost do like word cloud type type. Deals, it'll do that. You can see that, you know, 85022, like you're doing really well in that zip code. Kevin: So kudos to that salesperson. But these other zip codes, you know, they're not, or maybe they have a lot of customers, but revenue is lower. Identify  Andy: opportunities. That was my next thought is I think that. Contractors probably have revenue per customer because that's the account. They may not have profitability per customer because they may not job cost down to that level of detail. Andy: But could you, you know, do what you just said? Say, show me geographically where, you know, a majority of our revenue comes from or where our profit comes from.  Kevin: You absolutely could, and easily, easily you could. Major caveat. You're putting your data out there, and you've got to decide if you care. Um, I have a very practical, uh, attitude about this. Kevin: That... There. The, the LLMs are not in the business of yielding your data, but there is evidence that they are porous at the moment. So if you put highly sensitive data in there that you know, the formula for Coke or something like that, it is possible that the MO model. maybe training itself on that. So if somebody somewhere then asks for the formula for Coke, um, since you've put it in there, it can connect the dots, but we're not talking about,  Andy: so you might not want to disclose the name or the address, but maybe just the zip code. Andy: And that might be good enough. The first column was a zip code.  Kevin: So, but I'm, I'm not too stressed about it. You can turn some of these tracking features off and the training features off. But somebody would have to. Like the data would have to be meaningful, right? That, that, that somebody would be interested in it and like be able to put it together and whatnot. Kevin: So know that and you're going to start to see micro LLMs develop. Um, I don't think in this scale of business so much, but in medium sized businesses, you're going to start to see captive this is just Kevin pontificating, but you're going to start to see captive LLMs such that they are walled. Such that the organization can play with the LLM, but it's not necessarily getting out into the corpus of the world. Andy: I mean, I think it, uh, you're right, is we don't know how the data could be used now, but if, if the engine, if that's what you call it, the, the machine ends up with, if everybody uploads all of their sales data by zip code, then potentially the machine knows where people are spending money on outdoor, you know, services. Andy: So if we had a new, business we wanted to sell into a brand new greenfield market. It's a startup and we could ask it, show me the areas that spend the most on irrigation systems and it could provide that to us. Then we would have a target on how to go sell holiday lights or ponds or landscape lighting or something else, patios. Kevin: Yeah, we could. And it's pulling from all kinds of different data sources as well. So, um, so other practical things. So let's talk about images.  Andy: I was gonna say, um, that's what I wanted to get into next, just briefly, because we are kind of running out of time. But could we talk a little bit about images? Andy: Sure,  Kevin: uh, so In much the same way that the language models can predict what word comes next, image models do the same thing on a pixel level. So they're predicting, based on their neural network, what could actually come out next. And this can allow you to enter prompts, in a similar way as GPT, into a model like MidJourney. Kevin: is, uh, the one that I prefer, but there's also Dolly, uh, stable diffusion. There's a few, a few others that are out there that allow you to visualize things. So here you've done your blog. Um, now you need, uh, an image to go along with the blog. You could go to Getty or one of the other image provider things and find a dude squatting next to a sprinkler. Kevin: Or you could ask the The image generator to come up with, you know, middle aged guy working on a sprinkler in their yard mountains in the background and come up with a plausible image that you can use very, very quickly. That's adapted to what you need on a professional and you and I did  Andy: this. Briefly, like with a five, a five minute, you know, demo. Andy: And I'm, I'm curious, do you still have the copy of that image that we created with  Kevin: AI? Which one that does the discord image? Yeah, I do.  Andy: Yeah. Cause maybe what we could do is if you could email that to me, I will, you know what, I may use it as the cover of this article. I'm not article, but of this podcast, uh, on sprinkler nerds so that you guys can see an example of an AI generated image that Kevin made with me with a couple prompts. Andy: So if we still have it, let's, let's  Kevin: pull it up on my screen. So it's, uh, yeah, cool. Um, so it's, it's like a guy, I think, what's the, what's the prompt? Let me read the prompt. It was, uh, If you're  Andy: listening to this on Apple podcast or Spotify or something to see the cover art, I think you will need to go to this episode on sprinklernerd. Andy: com. That's where you'll see the actual graphic that Kevin's talking about.  Kevin: So the prompt is 30 year old energetic man checking a sprinkler in a deep green lawn. Nikon photorealistic and the trigger there is I'm trying to get it. It knows what a Nikon photorealistic image should look like, so it's not going to be some wild cartoon like, you know, psychedelic type thing. Kevin: It's trying to get it to be as real as possible. And sure enough, there's a guy squatting next to a sprinkler that is pretty well unusable. Now, from a processing perspective, you know, just let's just talk more work a day like you don't know what's going on. I, I've always advised, so I guest lecture on the stuff, um, entrepreneurship in general. Kevin: And I've always told my classes that, you know, you need to know basic Photoshop if you want to be a, a group by base level entrepreneur, because if you're not a creative person, you're going to be beholden to those agencies and it takes a long time, even if you're outsourced. So you're waiting for the student. Kevin: So things like practical things, like I need to remove a background. So, you know, I see Andy's logo behind him. I need, I need a transparency of this logo. Like there's an app for that, that, you know, for basically nothing. You can go to remove BG and it's going to pull out the background or image correction or image resizing. Kevin: And what you're going to see is a lot of these tools are going to be baked into the image processing software, like. Photoshop and Illustrator. Uh, I highly recommend if you're graphically oriented that you check out Adobe Firefly, uh, because it is magic. Like. I want a picture of a deer. Okay, now let's put the deer in an alley. Kevin: Oh, let's make the alley dark and add a sign over this door. And it's just on the fly creating all of this stuff. Which should make any graphic design oriented person tremble in their boots because... The most graphic designers make their, most of their income off of the stupid little stuff. The image correction and things. Kevin: It's not the big creative projects. And you're going to see that's going to be an industry that's going to be highly disrupted as a result of this. But yeah, even  Andy: Canva today is really disruptive, but not nearly what you're talking about. But Canva  Kevin: will implement this stuff too. So you can also do video voiceover. Kevin: I mean, be very afraid about voiceover and deep fake potential. Like we're not going to get political, but the next few years in this country should be very, very interesting. That way it's an election cycle and we're going to see all kinds of crazy stuff. And just to get, you know, philosophical for a second, we're going to end up in a place where you can't trust things and that's not a good place to be at all. Kevin: But just know that you can replicate your own voice in 15 minutes. Like I do a lot of podcasts, my voice is out there. So I had this bit of an epiphany and I called my, you know, 83 year old mother and I said, look, it is entirely possible that somebody could call you with my voice and try and get access to your bank accounts. Kevin: Like. That is actually possible right now and I gave her a safe word, like, you know, if you ever feel weirded out, whether or not it's actually me, um, just ask and, um, you know, we can verify, right? Don't say your safe  Andy: word. Don't say it. Andy: That's a great tip, actually. I think I'll, I'll, uh, with my family, come up with a safe word for all of us in the event that somebody does this. I think that's a really good  Kevin: tip. And it's awful, but people, it's already happening where people will get calls from their kids. I've been kidnapped. You need to send, you know, 10 grand right now. Kevin: Like that is happening. Now the positive side is like you're very soon you're going to have the ability to have these virtual customer service agents that can actually talk to people. Um, it's also terrifying, but. Like that's, let's just stay on the positive, right? That these are, these are, these, we are going to be able to offer such a personalized experience to our customers that we are going to just be able to blow them away. Kevin: Like when you, right now you're busy, you're running around, you got all your crews, you maybe have one person answering your phone, maybe you have nobody answering your phone. The phone can be answered. Chats can be responded to like, this is an whole aspect of practical applications that you, you all should be thinking about that. Kevin: How can I, how can I create a better experience on a creepy experience, but a better experience for my customer using some of these tools to get them to what they need instead of the endless frustrating, like back and forth. So, so  Andy: this might be a good point. Two are a good time for me to mention. I would like to run an experiment. Andy: So if you've made it to the end of the episode here, I would like to run an experiment based on what Kevin just said about personalization. And I think I would like to I'm kind of just spitballing this as as I go. I'd like to put a form on my website. So let's just say I'm going to go with sprinkler. Andy: com forward slash Ink Works, I N K W O R K S. Ink Works. I'm gonna put a form there with a few questions, including your address and when you fill out the form, I'm gonna use one of Kevin's projects, ink works.ai to send you a personalized letter handwritten from me based on the input, personalized based on the inputs that you enter in the form. Andy: How's that  Kevin: sound? That sounds awesome. So, and that's, that's my, and  Andy: I'm going to pay for it. It comes with a fee and that's Kevin's project right now, inkworks. ai. So I'd like to actually test it in real time with you guys listening and, um, you know, give you, give you a taste of what Kevin's  Kevin: working on. So we do, we're using, uh, LLM technology to interpret messages. Kevin: And then we're using pen wielding robots to handwrite notes. So, let's imagine you did a big landscaping project for a customer. Like, you know you should send them a thank you note. Or a Christmas card, or whatever it is. But you never get around to it, because it's, it's, it's time consuming. Um, using Inkworks, you can produce that letter. Kevin: And it comes out handwritten, absolutely unique. Um, I of course have them piled around here. They look like they're written by... And, um, it's remarkable efficacy and very ironic that I'm using multiple layers of AI to create something that's so highly personalized specifically because people are craving that personalization that we're all bombarded by all of this information constantly with emails and SMS and all this stuff and people just ignore it and it's just going to get worse as AI continues to advance. Kevin: Um, so. Ironically that my, one of the first toeholds I have is doing something analog with something amazingly complex.  Andy: So great. So great. Can't wait to run this experiment. Uh, on that note, you know, Kevin does, uh, coach businesses in this field. If you would like to, uh, hire Kevin to, you know, help you with your business, coach your employees, give you tips. Andy: How can somebody reach out to you, Kevin?  Kevin: Yeah, the easiest is, uh, Kevin at www. inkworks. ai. Um. Or I'm relatively easy to find on, on LinkedIn. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm out there.  Andy: Very cool. Very cool. And hopefully we can maybe find a time to do a little online training as well. And again, visit sprinkler. com forward slash inkworks and let's test out Kevin's software. Andy: I'm really excited to do that. And. You know, Kevin, I think that from all the people who I have met that are into AI and use the tool, I don't think I've met someone as knowledgeable as yourself, and I really appreciate you sharing  Kevin: this with us today. Thank you. I'm clearly passionate about it. This is the future, guys. Kevin: Okay,  Andy: well, until our next AI conversation. Thanks so much, Kevin. Have a great one.  

Kevin: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Kathy and I are happy to be with you guys today. Kathy: Yes. So last episode, we talked about the ways we process grief stuffers and sharers. Kevin: Yes. And we talked about ways to process our grief rather than just stuff it or just share it. And so in this episode, we're going to go a little bit deeper and talk about one way we can begin to get that grief out, how we can go from dealing with grief to processing grief. And so the question we're going to begin with is, "Kathy, are you a list lover or hater? How do you feel about lists?" Kathy: I love lists, and I can't wait to dive into this. So let's get started. You mentioned that there's a process we can use to begin to actually get the grief out. Can you explain it a little bit more? Kevin: Yeah. So we all have lists that we have running, whether it's grocery lists or to do lists or goals that we have by the end of the year, lists of know, instructions from Ikea, whatever that may be. We have these running lists of things. One example of a list that I have in my new job, I keep a running list of all of the things that I need to do in a particular day or particular week, and I'm constantly adding and subtracting things to that list. What about you? What's one of the lists that you keep? Kathy: Oh, my goodness. I have so many. My funniest lists are related to shopping, like grocery, Christmas, birthday. That running. I have so many random items on there that for this episode, I was looking at my lists, and I have 181. Kevin: Oh, my gosh. Literally 181? Kathy: Yes. Kevin: Oh, my goodness. How is it possible? How is that even possible? How do you keep track of 181 lists? Kathy: I have no idea. But I do have them. Kevin: Well, that's why you have them, right? Because there's so many things to keep track of. Oh, my goodness. That's crazy. I didn't expect that. Well, maybe we don't all keep 180 lists, but we have lists that are running, and we have them for very practical reasons. But there's an aspect of that practicality that will help us in the process of processing grief. The neuroscience tells us that there are two main benefits when it comes to list making. No matter what kind of list you're making, the two main benefits are externalizing and focusing. The benefit of externalizing is to do away with mental juggling. I think we've all been there where we try to keep all of the dates and all of the times and all of the information in our head, and we just find ourselves struggling to keep all of it in our brains. And that's because the neuroscience says most people can only hold about four things in their mind at a time. And I'll be honest, four things sounds like way more than what I can handle. I can do maybe one and possibly two things, but I'm constantly having things fall through the cracks. Kathy: Yeah, that's fascinating. Only four things. I think I'm the opposite. I'm holding 181 things, apparently. But this is very important to understand that if our brain can only hold four things, for those of us who attempt to hold more, we are not succeeding, and we probably are facing other consequences for holding all that information in. Kevin: That's right. And it could be really mentally exhausting to hold all of that stuff in, and you're expending energy by trying to hold on to those things and not really accomplishing them. So it's a waste of energy. In addition to being challenging, it's a waste of energy. But the other benefit of list making is focusing. So keeping the list and making a list helps you to move from one task to another without wasting time. It ultimately makes you like a productivity ninja. If you have a list of things that you have to take care of instead of wasting energy and trying to remember all of those things, you can actually take time to accomplish each of those tasks one by one. Kathy: Yeah, I think that it's so interesting that you're pointing out the focusing. Studies show as I'm helping people with budgets, like in coaching, studies show that if you make a grocery list before you enter the grocery, you're less likely to spend as much money. And so just the five minutes it would take to sit in the car before you walk into the store helps you focus. And then, of course, then there are lots of financial benefits, as one example. Kevin: Right. Exactly. So we have these two benefits of list making externalizing and focusing. But it really begins to beg the question, "how will listing help with our losses?" Well, the reality is when we experience grief and loss, our subconscious mind creates a running list of all of our losses. And this list runs deep and wide all the way back to our childhood. Some of those ambiguous losses, our mind retains all of those things. And we talked last week about the stuffers and sharers and their attempt to deal with this grief. And the principle still that applies for this week is the need to seek out practices that promote externalizing and focus missing. And so when we are using the practice of listing, we can begin to externalize our loss and begin focusing on the pain to start processing that loss. When it comes to grief, then externalizing our loss and focusing on our pain will help us to begin to process that loss and help us to move forward. Kathy: How do you recommend our listeners engage in this listing practice for grief? Kevin: Good question. First, I want to say it may feel a little bit awkward at first to create a list as it relates to grief. It won't be as intuitive, but that's kind of the point, right, is to start using that part of your brain that wants to move through the grocery store really quickly and efficiently and budget consciously for your grief. There seems to be a disconnect, but if we can draw a bridge between those two parts of our mind, I think it will help engage our whole mind into our grief and help us to process it, which is really what the struggle is with our grief, is that we don't process it. It's just there. The encouragement then is just to start. And the best way to start is have a blank piece of paper with lines and a pen and something to write with. Or if you're more of an electronic person like I am, pull up notes on your phone and just start making a running list. You can start with the big things, work your way to the small things. You can start with the things that happened today, this week, since the beginning of the year. Just start writing down like basically a catch all list of all of the losses. What will begin to happen is some of those losses will relate to other little losses or there'll be subcategories of losses. You'll have some repeats of losses, but all of that externalizing of that loss will give you the opportunity to look at that list, to hold it in your hand, and to feel that affirmation of. No wonder I'm so tired, no wonder this has been so hard. Look at all that I've been through. And then that focus also gives you a new perspective to start to be more compassionate to yourself and helps you to focus in on where the pain is and where you need to be good to yourself and where you need to reach out for help and support. Kathy: I think from my experience personally, and also doing this with our groups, when we're listing, we start writing down things we didn't even know were lost or things we had forgotten. I know that happened with me. And then drawing some links and connections between losses that I hadn't thought about for decades. So getting it out, the externalizing is super helpful. We had one student say she didn't know that her job loss that happened six years ago was the cause of her depression. It's a simple but very, very effective tool. Kevin: Yeah. And that's what our brain does. Right. Our brain is wired to make connections. And so when we're creating a list like this and we're able to see it tangibly, the brain will start to naturally connect the dots of the losses that we've experienced and where a lot of our pain is coming from. We've talked about the 6th stage of grief before, and that's meaning making. So when we find ourselves in the process of grieving, meaning making is such an important practice that we need to include in the highs and lows of a loss. And we can begin the process of meaning making at any point during our grief experience. If you're able to see the list of losses and your brain's drawing connections about how the loss that you experienced this week is related to a loss you experienced in your childhood or related to the thing that you didn't think was a loss that happened two years ago. The brain can make meaning from that. And that's what the processing work really becomes fruitful and beneficial. Kevin: And so I think what I would like to do to conclude our episode today is to lead you all through a journaling exercise to begin the process of list making. If you're in a place right now where you're able to grab something to write with or you have a device in front of you that you can type on, I want to invite you to open that up, to pull that out and get yourself in the mindset in a space where you can practice some of that journaling right now. So with the piece of paper, with the device in front of you, I want you to just begin with the first thing that comes to mind when you think of grief, when you think of loss. What's that thing that happened to you that feels it's always there? It's the heaviest thing in your backpack. Write that thing down first. Maybe there's more than one thing. Go ahead and start writing down some of the things that come to mind as you continue to write. Think about the things that you may not traditionally think of as losses, but feel like pain points for you. So those difficult conversations that you've had recently, the time that somebody's at something that really hurt you, a time that something happened that made you upset in a way that you didn't expect, start writing down those things too. You think about the different phases of your life, your earliest memories, your childhood, your young adult life, and even just your recent experiences. What are some of those points in time that have made a lasting impression? A mark on you because of a loss, because of an experience, a difficult encounter? Write down those things too. You may be at a point in your journaling where you're getting stuck, and that's okay. You can look over your list and review and see what other thoughts comes to mind. Even if there's something that you're not sure if it should be on the list, just add it. Just write it down. If it keeps coming to your mind, just write it down. If you find yourself free flowing and writing a lot, go ahead and keep on writing until you get to a stopping point. Now that you're at the end and you're looking over your list, why don't you circle those things that feel most heavy right now? I'm only imagining what you've written on your list. Thinking of my own list. And let me be the first to say, my goodness. No wonder you feel the way that you do. No wonder this has been so difficult for you. Look at all that you've been through. So for whatever you may be coping with, we want to extend our blessings to you.

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, we discuss Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels, and the future of Meta, formerly known as Facebook.With TikTok taking headlines at the Mobile Apps Unlocked conference and Meta nowhere to be found, what does this mean for the future of tech companies? Can we really count them out? As Kevin says, "I think you can never ever count a tech company out, especially a tech company with tons of cash."They also delve into* The psychology behind contrarian marketing strategies * How Apple's VR headset might change the game for communication and productivity* Whether WhatsApp channels disrupt conventional brand marketing* If AI can change the playing field in searchJoin Kevin and Eli as they dissect these questions and much more!Transcript[00:00:00] Contrarian Marketing Podcast: Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels, and TikTok at Mobile Apps Unlocked[00:00:00] Kevin: Stop.[00:00:05] Eli: Hi, welcome to another episode of the Contrarian Marketing podcast where we give you ideas you might not be thinking about today.[00:00:11] Eli: We're talking about Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels and other news.[00:00:16] Eli: Eli, you just went to an event that is not the Apple WWDC.[00:00:21] Eli: Tell us about it.[00:00:22] Kevin: So I went to an event in Vegas call the Mobile Apps Unlocked conference and they did an interesting thing where they allowed all marketers who are not at agencies to go for free.[00:00:33] Kevin: So I'm not a big fan of paying 1000 $502,500 to go and attend a conference because if anything we've learned from the Pandemic, you could do a lot of learning without going anywhere.[00:00:44] Kevin: I go for the network, but I don't know necessarily if a network is worthwhile.[00:00:48] Kevin: So I don't really want to invest 1000 $502,500 in that conference because I can't go to that many.[00:00:52] Kevin: Like I would certainly do that for most the most awesome conference, but for a conference I've never heard of before or vaguely knew about, not sure I'd do that.[00:01:00] Kevin: But this conference was free for marketers.[00:01:02] Kevin: Obviously I had to pay my own travels in Las Vegas.[00:01:05] Kevin: It's called mobile apps.[00:01:06] Kevin: Unlocked.[00:01:06] Kevin: I think it was 1000 2000.[00:01:08] Eli: People talks about mobile.[00:01:10] Kevin: Of course, a lot of growth marketers there met fascinating people.[00:01:13] Kevin: But TikTok was a headline sponsor and they had dozens of TikTok employees.[00:01:18] Kevin: And they talked about all the things that TikTok does gaming, creative partnerships, a lot of things that go well beyond influencers.[00:01:26] Kevin: Dancing to the latest pop on TikTok videos, but really like how they integrate and how they monetize and how they can partner with creators.[00:01:34] Kevin: But what I felt was thought was fascinating was TikTok was headline sponsor.[00:01:38] Kevin: Facebook was not there.[00:01:40] Kevin: Meta was not there at all as a sponsor, as a booth, as anything, and they didn't even have any employees there.[00:01:47] Kevin: Now I get there are austere times at Meta, they're doing layoffs, maybe they are not out there as much as they used to be, but to not be there at all seemed fascinating to me.[00:01:57] WhatsApp and the future of Meta[00:01:57] Kevin: So we're going to talk today about WhatsApp which is a Meta company.[00:02:02] Kevin: But I think it's interesting that where Facebook is going and how they're going to retrench and how they're going to pivot.[00:02:08] Kevin: I think you can never ever count a tech company out, especially a tech company with tons of cash.[00:02:13] Kevin: Like how many times has Microsoft been counted out or how many times has even IBM been counted out?[00:02:18] Kevin: And then they came out there with Watson and you're like, oh, IBM is cool again.[00:02:21] Kevin: And people are saying maybe Google is behind the times because of chat JBT, lots of cash.[00:02:27] Kevin: So Facebook, certainly the usage of Facebook has been declining.[00:02:32] Kevin: I just saw this quote.[00:02:33] Kevin: I don't know if you watch Ted.[00:02:34] Eli: Lasso, of course, I just watched the last season of the third sorry, the last episode of the third season.[00:02:40] Eli: Yesterday.[00:02:40] Eli: I'm not going to spoil it.[00:02:41] Kevin: No, don't spoil it because I watched it.[00:02:43] Kevin: But we don't want to spoil it for our listeners.[00:02:44] Kevin: But did you see the part where Keeley got in trouble because she had a it wasn't a sex tape but it was just like a tape leak.[00:02:51] Eli: It was pretty close to sex tape.[00:02:53] Kevin: Yeah, close enough.[00:02:54] Kevin: Whatever.[00:02:54] Kevin: It's not real anyways.[00:02:55] Kevin: It's a show.[00:02:56] Kevin: And they told her that she had to put out her apology on the socials and they said you don't need to put it on Facebook because that's just for old people and rapists or something like that.[00:03:04] Eli: Pretty harsh.[00:03:05] Eli: Pretty harsh.[00:03:06] Kevin: That was pretty harsh.[00:03:07] Eli: I'm always a shoestring away from deleting my Facebook account and yet at the same time I am going to say that Meta's total number of users has gone to all time highs and I.[00:03:17] Kevin: Feel like Instagram and WhatsApp, but not through the Blue Facebook.[00:03:22] Eli: Well, not for us.[00:03:23] Eli: And I think even in the US they actually edit more Blue Facebook users.[00:03:27] Eli: But it's not our generation.[00:03:29] Eli: We're not the target audience of Facebook anymore.[00:03:31] Eli: I think it's I don't know about.[00:03:32] Kevin: You, but I am.[00:03:33] Kevin: I'm old.[00:03:34] Eli: Not that old.[00:03:35] Eli: Come on, it's not that bad.[00:03:36] Eli: We're going to talk a bit more about Meta in just a second.[00:03:39] Eli: There is some exciting news, especially for creators and for brands.[00:03:44] Apple Launches $3,500 VR Headset[00:03:44] Eli: But first we got to talk of course about the news of the day, maybe for me and not for Eli, which of course is that Apple has launched a $3,500 VR headset.[00:03:56] Eli: Now I got my own opinion about this, but I know Eli, you are the biggest Apple fan out there, so I'm going to let you speak first.[00:04:03] Kevin: So I used to be very anti Apple.[00:04:06] Kevin: I never purchased an Apple product, ever.[00:04:09] Kevin: I used a MacBook when I had a full time job because it was easier, of course.[00:04:14] Kevin: But when it came to purchasing products, I was never part of the cult of Mac or the cult of Apple.[00:04:19] Kevin: I've always had Android devices.[00:04:21] Kevin: My wife had an Apple device for some time and I didn't provide tech support for it when things happened.[00:04:26] Kevin: But I said if she was on an Android, I was going to be able to help it because I understood it.[00:04:29] Kevin: But I wasn't going to go learn an Apple system.[00:04:31] Kevin: So I've never purchased any Apple products.[00:04:33] Kevin: But I did recently purchase an iPad and this is my first Apple product and it's sucker man.[00:04:39] Kevin: I think it is a slippery slope to an iPhone, which is a slippery slope to maybe a MacBook, which next thing you know we're going to be doing this on a VR headset.[00:04:47] Kevin: So I typically think that a lot of what Apple does is extremely high end tech.[00:04:53] Kevin: It's not necessarily mainstream.[00:04:55] Kevin: That's my first opinion of the VR headset.[00:04:58] Kevin: I think it surprises me how many Apple watches have been sold because again, it's an expensive high end tool that you don't necessarily need if you're just trying to tell the time or get notifications.[00:05:10] Apple VR headset and its future impact[00:05:10] Kevin: Love to hear your thoughts on Apple VR headset and how you think it'll be used, especially at that price tag.[00:05:15] Kevin: I mean that price tag, it almost needs to be used expensed by companies rather than individuals.[00:05:21] Eli: The first thought is who is going to buy that?[00:05:25] Eli: And I think this is fulfilling a couple of purposes.[00:05:30] Eli: One is for Apple to have something out there.[00:05:35] Eli: I do believe that in the future we'll use VR and AR.[00:05:39] Eli: I don't believe that future is that close yet.[00:05:42] Eli: This is a high end consumer product for the richest of the rich, for maybe a few hotels or experiences that might provide this.[00:05:51] Eli: But this is not a yeah, you know, and maybe people said this about the $1,000 iPhone as well, but I don't see this being something that millions of people will buy just yet.[00:06:01] Eli: Maybe in the future when the price comes down and the price will come down.[00:06:04] Eli: The second thought is what's the use case here?[00:06:08] Eli: And it's really only a few use cases.[00:06:10] Eli: One of them is games.[00:06:12] Eli: And I don't think there is a killer game out there yet that you need these glasses for.[00:06:17] Eli: I might be wrong, I'll stand corrected.[00:06:19] Eli: I haven't tried them out yet, but I don't see this killer game yet.[00:06:22] Eli: The other one is sports events where you might be in the middle of a baseball field and that's going to be very attractive to people.[00:06:28] Eli: And then the third one, and that to me is the one that has the most utility and value is the office.[00:06:35] Eli: I think VR and AR is the best way to foster connections when people work remotely and that's where meta ism, is innovating heavily and I think that's their best trot.[00:06:46] Eli: Right.[00:06:47] Eli: I think VR and AR glasses are going to come through a work setting.[00:06:51] Eli: They're going to be a productivity tool to foster connection and to improve the experience you have when you communicate with people.[00:06:57] Eli: So that's kind of the first thought.[00:06:59] Eli: Again, the last thought that I'm going to say, which I think is a bit more contrarian, is typically innovation comes from the bottom up.[00:07:08] Eli: It's cheap and affordable, it comes from startups.[00:07:11] Eli: But I don't think startups are yet at a place to build affordable and good enough VR AR headsets.[00:07:18] Eli: So it has to be Apple.[00:07:20] Eli: And I think Apple actually has the best trot at making this a truly broad customer or consumer success.[00:07:28] Eli: But that time is not yet.[00:07:30] Eli: So I don't think they're going to make money on this in the next five years, but I think they're going to might set themselves up to crush it over the next ten years.[00:07:38] Kevin: Yeah, I think it's fascinating that they're trying this after Google failed.[00:07:41] Kevin: I mean, Google Glass failed is useless.[00:07:43] Kevin: Have you ever tried the google Glass?[00:07:45] Eli: I have not.[00:07:46] Eli: But Google is not a good hardware company.[00:07:49] Eli: They're not a consumer hardware company.[00:07:50] Eli: So this was a mood shot, and Apple has tons of experience in selling to consumers.[00:07:56] Kevin: Okay.[00:07:57] Kevin: And now Facebook tried, but Oculus is not saving Facebook as a company.[00:08:01] Kevin: So it's just interesting that Apple is trying this when there have been some notable failures.[00:08:08] Kevin: Oculus was not driven towards the business market, so maybe, maybe that's different.[00:08:14] Kevin: But again, $3,500 for a remote work tool when all of a sudden apple included companies are requiring that their employees come back to the office.[00:08:24] Kevin: Kind of interesting.[00:08:25] Kevin: It is.[00:08:26] Eli: I heard that the quality must be amazing.[00:08:28] Eli: It must be absolutely outstanding.[00:08:30] Eli: Again, I haven't tried it out yet, so I'm going to reserve final judgment, but those are the early thoughts you already started.[00:08:35] WhatsApp Channels: A New Way for Brands and Creators to Connect with Users[00:08:35] Eli: We mentioned Meta twice in this conversation.[00:08:37] Eli: Once with the TikTok event you went to, and the other time the Metaverse and all the hardware that they built with Oculus.[00:08:45] Eli: Now there's a new interesting development from the Meta side, which is on WhatsApp, and that is WhatsApp channels.[00:08:53] Eli: So in essence, WhatsApp channels are simply channels you can follow.[00:08:57] Eli: They're going to be interesting for brands and creators to basically broadcast their content.[00:09:01] Eli: And I think that could be an interesting channel for brands moving forward.[00:09:06] Eli: First of all, because WhatsApp has very broad adoption, I have to fact check myself and look at the latest numbers, but I think they're not too far away from a billion people.[00:09:15] Eli: And there are not that many channels out there.[00:09:19] Eli: We recently spoke about innovative marketing channels.[00:09:21] Eli: You're going to find the episode in the show notes, but there aren't that many channels out there that aren't super crowded.[00:09:26] Eli: And this seems to be more of a channel where you can select the content you get, but it is similar to an email where you get the content straight to your inbox, or in this case, straight to your WhatsApp phone.[00:09:38] Eli: So I'm bullish while there's not a lot of information out there, got to keep an eye on this one.[00:09:44] Kevin: Yeah, I think.[00:09:45] Kevin: WhatsApp is an underutilized asset for Meta?[00:09:49] Kevin: For Facebook?[00:09:50] Kevin: They bought it for 19 billion.[00:09:51] Kevin: I think it was 19 billion and everyone thought it was insane, but it was an amazing purchase.[00:09:56] Kevin: And they've really grown that platform.[00:09:59] Kevin: But the reason I say it's underutilized is because they're not monetizing it at all.[00:10:05] Kevin: They've tried to put ads, I think in India, maybe they injected ads, but they're not monetizing it directly.[00:10:11] Kevin: And there are a lot of different uses of it where they could inject themselves more into some sort of monetization strategy, but they're not at all.[00:10:19] Kevin: And then one thing that is interesting about the one way they are using it, of course, is backlash.[00:10:24] Kevin: But again, people are using the people that use Blue, Facebook.[00:10:27] Kevin: So when they log into the regular Facebook app and they're people you may what do they call people you may know, or people you should know or people you should connect with or whatever it is you get freaked out by who shows up.[00:10:39] Kevin: They're like, oh, that's my ex boss, or that's my ex girlfriend, or that's the person that tried to kill me, or something like that.[00:10:45] Kevin: That's actually feeding off the context that you've uploaded through WhatsApp.[00:10:50] Kevin: That's the way they're using it.[00:10:51] Kevin: And it's helping, in theory, build that social graph in Facebook and maybe in Instagram too, but otherwise they're not directly monetizing.[00:10:59] Kevin: So it's great to see an innovation within WhatsApp that allows them to do it.[00:11:03] Kevin: There are things within WhatsApp, like there are businesses that post statuses.[00:11:06] Kevin: They post the sales and you follow our business, here's our sale.[00:11:10] Kevin: Facebook is not injecting themselves into that process at all and trying to help promote that status, helping to gather followers for that status.[00:11:18] Kevin: There's so many things they could do.[00:11:19] Kevin: So it's great to see Facebook investing in there.[00:11:22] Kevin: And like we said earlier, don't count them out.[00:11:25] Kevin: They've got lots of cash, they've got a huge network between all of their different platforms.[00:11:29] Kevin: They have many, many billions of users.[00:11:31] Kevin: So lots of potential there.[00:11:33] Eli: Yeah, thanks for fact checking me here.[00:11:35] Eli: I just want to correct myself.[00:11:37] Eli: I said they're close to a billion users.[00:11:39] Eli: Actually.[00:11:39] Eli: They actually have over 2 billion users.[00:11:41] Eli: So massive channel, I'll be the first one to start broadcasting there because I'm hungry for a new channel where I can be early and where I can establish a a presence.[00:11:52] Eli: The thing that I'm going to be most curious about is the discovery aspect.[00:11:56] Eli: So how are people going to find new creators and brands to follow?[00:11:59] Eli: Because that will be its own little optimization game.[00:12:02] Eli: Call it WhatsApp SEO or maybe don't.[00:12:04] Kevin: Well, one of the things I love about Facebook is the ability to market and to use interest targeting.[00:12:11] Kevin: So I would love if they could plug that into WhatsApp.[00:12:14] Kevin: And you can get more followers for your channel.[00:12:16] Kevin: You can get more people to see your channel, or more people to see your statuses or add to your groups and do all that with just Facebook marketing.[00:12:23] Kevin: And I think that's great.[00:12:25] Kevin: Facebook is the number one channel for doing interest targeting because they've got so much information, except with the usage declining, it's harder and harder to target people.[00:12:35] Kevin: Again, like we said earlier, I don't log into Facebook that often.[00:12:38] Kevin: I don't use instagram.[00:12:39] Kevin: So yes, Facebook has my data.[00:12:42] Kevin: You can in theory target me, but I'm not seeing those ads if I'm not on Facebook.[00:12:45] Kevin: Facebook does actually have other ad or other ways of showing ads, and they have partnerships with apps, but it's far more limited.[00:12:53] Kevin: If you don't have those apps, you don't have those gains.[00:12:55] Kevin: But again, if they can get you on Facebook, they have almost everyone on WhatsApp they can get you on Instagram, then they can target you and maybe they'll revive Oculus now that Apple showed them there's potential there.[00:13:06] Kevin: And they can inject ads into Oculus too.[00:13:09] Kevin: And then you can have an immersive experience with an advertiser speaking about ads and broadcasting.[00:13:15] Missing the boat: GameStop and CNN's failed attempts to adapt[00:13:15] Eli: CNN just fired their CEO and there is another company who also fired their CEO, and that is GameStop.[00:13:22] Eli: And there are interesting similarities between both of them.[00:13:25] Eli: They both kind of missed the boats, but from different ends of the spectrum.[00:13:29] Eli: So GameStop, they tried too much contrarian stuff.[00:13:35] Eli: They tried to save their fading or eroding business with a crypto platform or a blockchain platform that went up in smokes.[00:13:43] Eli: Business has been dying for years and nobody has really been able to turn it around.[00:13:47] Eli: And then CNN, on the other hand, they've been moving too slow.[00:13:51] Eli: They weren't able to really establish themselves as a streaming platform.[00:13:55] Eli: They wrote off a 300 million US dollar check where they tried CNN Plus as a streaming platform and then overnight pulled the plug from that.[00:14:03] Eli: And now the CEO has to kind of pay the price for not establishing themselves and CNN on the streaming horizon.[00:14:10] Eli: Eli, how have both of these brands missed a boat?[00:14:13] Eli: I mean, from your perspective, what is your opinion?[00:14:16] Kevin: I'm going to be super contrarian here.[00:14:18] Kevin: I think both of these businesses don't need to exist at all.[00:14:21] Kevin: I think they're hanging on to an old vestige of something else that we just don't need.[00:14:26] Kevin: I mean, GameStop is a retail store in a world where many people buy things online.[00:14:31] Kevin: Do you need a GameStop when you can even go to GameStop.com?[00:14:34] Kevin: A Sharper Image, like they went out of business, but sharperimage.com still exists.[00:14:38] Kevin: You can still buy Sharp brand, it still exists as a brand, but you just don't need Sharper Image stores.[00:14:41] Kevin: I think the same with CNN.[00:14:44] Kevin: There's a lot you can say around the politics of CNN.[00:14:47] Kevin: I think they thrived on Trump.[00:14:49] Kevin: You wanted that narrative of anti Trump a couple of years ago already, that Trump has not been president.[00:14:55] Kevin: Now, is there a need for media?[00:14:58] Kevin: Is there a need for 24 hours media that you're going to watch and that's profitable now?[00:15:03] Kevin: I won't argue against the need for media in general.[00:15:05] Kevin: You're not going to have TikTok influencers and Twitter thought leaders and LinkedIn influencers flying to the interesting places in the world and riding in tanks alongside the Ukrainian army.[00:15:16] Kevin: That's not going to happen.[00:15:18] Kevin: You need the media.[00:15:19] Kevin: You need a funded, official, accredited, organized media to do that.[00:15:25] Kevin: So media should exist.[00:15:26] Kevin: But do you need to watch it 24 hours?[00:15:28] Kevin: Do you need a talk show to digest the latest thing that maybe happened in politics, when you can sit on Twitter and digest it just the same while you're multitasking, while you're supposed to be at work, you don't need to watch that online or on TV.[00:15:41] Kevin: Even worse, do you even need to watch it streaming?[00:15:44] Kevin: Do you want to catch up on the latest argument between two talking heads, five talking heads, or however many talking heads they have, when again, you could just go on Twitter and participate in it.[00:15:54] Kevin: So I think that CNN is they've been around for a very long time.[00:15:58] Kevin: They popularized the idea of 24 hours media when there was no 24 hours media.[00:16:03] Kevin: And I think now do you really need 24 hours media?[00:16:06] Kevin: So maybe that's what CNN struggling with.[00:16:08] Kevin: Is it's an entertainment platform?[00:16:11] Kevin: We had an episode on streaming.[00:16:13] Kevin: Look at what HBO did.[00:16:14] Kevin: HBO merged into Max and I just got a notification.[00:16:18] Kevin: Do you have Xfinity or what do you have for Internet?[00:16:20] Eli: There xfinity.[00:16:21] Kevin: Yeah.[00:16:22] Kevin: Okay, so did you get an email from Xfinity saying they're pulling peacock out of Xfinity?[00:16:27] Eli: No, but what is peacock again?[00:16:29] Kevin: Exactly.[00:16:30] Kevin: So there's a million streaming platforms.[00:16:31] Kevin: I got an email this morning saying, sorry to tell you, but you no longer get peacock for free.[00:16:36] Kevin: There's a good reminder that I even had peacock for free from Xfinity because they're both owned by NBC, owned by GE.[00:16:41] Kevin: I think it's a struggle, like all these streaming platforms, netflix, crackdown on, password sharing.[00:16:46] Kevin: So do you need a CNN subscription?[00:16:48] Kevin: Is there even a reason that you need to watch or even pay for a CNN streaming subscription?[00:16:54] Kevin: So I think that bigger question is, should they exist?[00:16:57] Eli: It depends on the content.[00:16:58] Eli: They had.[00:16:59] Eli: For example, one show with Scott Galloway, and I would have loved to pay for that because the guy is genius.[00:17:06] Eli: However, I think there's going to be consolidation at some point where all these streaming networks are going to be facilitated by YouTube, TV or someone else.[00:17:14] Eli: I don't think all of these are going to survive and people are not going to pay for all of them, at least not constantly.[00:17:20] Eli: You might pay for a show for a while and then you got to cancel your subscription again.[00:17:24] Eli: So that's going to be challenging.[00:17:26] Breaking News and Dopamine Addiction[00:17:26] Eli: But what's interesting, and one thing that I want to highlight is how breaking news and this kind of news real where you constantly have news and then a few ads in between.[00:17:36] Eli: There was the original dopamine factory before Twitter came out, before these social platforms come out.[00:17:43] Eli: And I'm just tired, man.[00:17:46] Eli: I'm tired out of the constant dopamine cycles.[00:17:49] Eli: I'm tired of Twitter, I'm tired of endless scroll.[00:17:53] Eli: And breaking news to me is just endless scroll once the news broke their old news.[00:17:58] Eli: And so basically, people watching that, I see it, I know people who watch that stuff constantly.[00:18:04] Eli: And are they younger than 80?[00:18:07] Eli: Slightly, but not much.[00:18:09] Eli: That's exactly the point, right?[00:18:11] Eli: That's kind of the dopamine addiction of the older generation and much older generation.[00:18:15] Eli: And so they're going to die out of it.[00:18:18] Eli: They're missing addressing younger audiences and bringing new audiences on board.[00:18:22] Discussing AI-Powered Search and The Future of SEO[00:18:22] Eli: So let's wrap up, speaking about one company that is struggling with something very similar, and that is Google and Alphabet.[00:18:29] Eli: Now, YouTube, to be fair, is incredibly hot with the teens and the young generation.[00:18:34] Eli: But Google is increasingly replaced by other platforms like TikTok.[00:18:39] Eli: I see.[00:18:40] Eli: It my fiance's sister, she's in her early 20s.[00:18:43] Eli: She searches so much more stuff on TikTok.[00:18:45] Eli: And I'm not here to say that TikTok is the SEO killer or the Google killer.[00:18:49] Eli: This platform is struggling to address and keep young audiences as well.[00:18:54] Eli: And they recently launched their search Genera Experience, which is based on AI, which we just recorded a full episode about.[00:19:01] Eli: But Eli, a lot has changed since we recorded that episode a week ago.[00:19:06] Eli: What's your freshest take on this?[00:19:08] Kevin: So I actually think that Google is going to win.[00:19:11] Kevin: I think because they own the platform, they have all the users, they can keep getting people back onto the platform from all their other, from Android, from Gmail, from Sheets and Docs and all the other things that Google does.[00:19:24] Kevin: But I'm very bullish on Google's future.[00:19:26] Kevin: I think what they're doing with Generative AI, it's buggy right now, but it will improve.[00:19:31] Kevin: They launched an update to Bard, which is what's powering Generative Experiences to begin with, which you can now do logic.[00:19:38] Kevin: And in this blog post, which we'll link in the show notes, they explain System One thinking.[00:19:41] Kevin: System Two, which is based on Daniel Kahneman's Nobel Prize winning economics theory, which is System One is your initial emotional response, and System Two is more thought out.[00:19:52] Kevin: So system one, where system two is more logical.[00:19:56] Kevin: So system one is barred.[00:19:58] Kevin: It's just language like it gives you a response, it may or may not be correct.[00:20:01] Kevin: System Two can do logic and that's where Google thrives.[00:20:05] Kevin: So Chat GBT is competing on the system one.[00:20:07] Kevin: It's just a large language model, can give an answer.[00:20:10] Kevin: System Two is where Google's been great at this for the last two decades.[00:20:13] Kevin: And they're doing logic like you can ask it math questions, it's pulling from knowledge graph, it's using the massive superpowers of Google.[00:20:22] Kevin: So I think that's where they win.[00:20:24] Kevin: I think there's no competitor right now that's as good at both of those as Google.[00:20:28] Kevin: It as long as they don't lose market share.[00:20:30] Kevin: I do think Google wins, even with their buggy product.[00:20:33] Eli: I think nobody can be Google and Search.[00:20:36] Eli: I much more think that other companies are going to try to fragment search and kind of break it apart.[00:20:42] Eli: For example, Microsoft.[00:20:44] Eli: I've changed my opinion.[00:20:45] Eli: I don't think they're trying to win with Bing.[00:20:47] Eli: I think they might have a chance to win with Chat GPT, which is a completely different experience that now also features Bing search results, or they're just going to bring the whole damn thing into the taskbar at the bottom of your screen.[00:21:00] Eli: They might break it out of the browser and bring it to the operating system level.[00:21:04] Eli: So there's a whole lot of interesting stuff going on with AI search and SGE.[00:21:10] Eli: But I think one of the biggest trends that most people don't have on the radar is that you might just not need the browser anymore.[00:21:16] Eli: It might live natively in an app, or in Google Sheets, or again in your taskbar.[00:21:21] Eli: And so I think the biggest chance for other companies is to change the game.[00:21:25] Eli: Instead of trying to beat Google ad it.[00:21:26] Eli: Google has one search period.[00:21:28] Eli: But the question is now, how can you change the field?[00:21:31] Kevin: How can you change the playing field?[00:21:33] Kevin: Absolutely.[00:21:34] Kevin: And you're right.[00:21:35] Kevin: I don't think anybody's going to be Google.[00:21:37] Kevin: I think the playing field is changing underneath Google, and they're now catching up and changing with it.[00:21:43] Kevin: A recent newsletter, I talked about how this is what Google's always been doing.[00:21:47] Kevin: These are featured snippets.[00:21:48] Kevin: These are knowledge graph.[00:21:50] Kevin: They had LLM to begin with, but they didn't want to release it for two reasons.[00:21:53] Kevin: One, innovator's dilemma, because they would kill their business model, and they're definitely hurting their ads for the people that are in the beta.[00:22:00] Kevin: And the second reason is that it's risky.[00:22:02] Kevin: I mean, when it comes to Knowledge Graph, most of knowledge Graph is correct.[00:22:06] Kevin: I know, like, you search certain people, like one search, I think Rand Fishkin, there was a picture of Neil Patel that was based on knowledge Graph is broken.[00:22:13] Kevin: But for the most part, knowledge Graph is accurate.[00:22:15] Kevin: It pulls off a structured data.[00:22:17] Kevin: LLM is not LLM can say offensive, wrong things.[00:22:21] Kevin: Like it can give you the wrong advice and you can follow and do serious harm to yourself.[00:22:26] Kevin: So they can't control it because they don't know what's out there.[00:22:27] Kevin: So I get why they didn't release it, but now that they are releasing it and they are working with it, I think they will win.[00:22:34] Eli: We're green too much, Eli.[00:22:35] Eli: We got to change that.[00:22:36] Eli: But one area or kind of one place?[00:22:39] Kevin: You're wrong.[00:22:39] Kevin: You're just wrong.[00:22:42] Eli: Do better now.[00:22:43] Eli: So much better.[00:22:44] Dealing with disagreements and building strong business partnerships[00:22:44] Eli: One area where we're not agreeing all the time, or where we disagree more, is our new Slack Group.[00:22:48] Eli: Eli, you want to talk about that secretly?[00:22:51] Kevin: Not secretly.[00:22:52] Kevin: We quietly discussed this a couple of weeks ago in an episode.[00:22:56] Kevin: We want to launch a Slack Group that would help consultants become better consultants.[00:23:00] Kevin: We have the slack group.[00:23:01] Kevin: We're going to put up a link where you can apply to be a part of this.[00:23:04] Kevin: We want to make sure it adds as much value to everyone that is in the Slack Group, and of course ourselves too, that we just want to have a high caliber of the best consultants out there.[00:23:12] Kevin: We have not yet defined what the cutoff will be, but this will be for really, the best consultants.[00:23:19] Kevin: And just to give a sneak preview to an upcoming podcast, the greatest of all time, the Goat of consulting.[00:23:26] Kevin: Alan Weiss, who published, I think, six best selling books on consulting, the Million Dollar Consulting or Consultants book, which is the first one he came out with in the late eighty s I learned everything from and he's had six updates to that book.[00:23:38] Kevin: So we just interviewed him for a podcast.[00:23:41] Kevin: This is our very first interview ever.[00:23:43] Kevin: So if you're not subscribed and you're just listening to this podcast for the first time, this one's coming.[00:23:47] Kevin: This is going to be the best episode we have.[00:23:49] Eli: Man, I'm still on a high from that conversation.[00:23:52] Eli: There's going to be so much we have to record an episode about that episode, just digesting and commenting on all the nuggets that he got out.[00:23:59] Eli: So, yeah, everyone look forward to this.[00:24:01] Eli: That was an absolutely mind blowing conversation with many things he never mentioned before, many fun stories about tanks and trains and jeopardy.[00:24:13] Eli: It's going to be a wild one.[00:24:14] Eli: So, yeah, Eli, this is a wrap.[00:24:16] Eli: Looking forward to talk to you again next week.[00:24:17] Kevin: Thanks, John.[00:24:18] Kevin and Eli Discuss Contrarian Marketing Strategies[00:24:18] Eli: And now it's your turn.[00:24:19] Eli: Head over to Contrarianmarketingpodcast.com and subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to get a summary of today's episode, key takeaways and community content.[00:24:28] Eli: And while you're there, go to today's episode and leave your opinion in the comments.[00:24:32] Eli: We'll feature the best thoughts in the newsletter and on the podcast podcast.[00:24:35] Eli: Also, if you like today's episode, please feel free to leave five stars on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcast.[00:24:41] Eli: As always, thanks so much for tuning in and here next week. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

Kevin: Well, welcome back, everybody, for another episode of Coping. Kathy and are happy to be here with you guys today. Kathy: Yes. So welcome everyone. Last episode, we talked about grief in the four parts of ourselves: our body, our heart, our mind and our spirit. Kevin: That's right. And in our quest for wholeness and reintegration, we begin coping with our loss in one of two main ways. And that's what we want to talk about today. Kathy: That sounds really interesting. I'm really eager to hear more. Let's get started. Kathy: So you mentioned that we often cope with our loss in one of two ways. Can you explain more? Kevin: Yeah. So in my work with families and individuals at end of life, I have begun to realize that there's two main coping strategies when it comes to talking about our grief. There are two types of grievers. The first are the stuffers. The stuffers are those that hold their grief inside. Now, they do this for all sorts of reasons, but some of the reasons I've heard include it's too painful to talk about. I'm afraid if I start, I'm not going to be able to stop talking about it. In my culture, my family, my religion, expressing emotion is frowned upon. And of course, there's those social stigmas like men don't cry or I'm trying to hold it all together and be strong for my family. Kevin: See, the main obstacle for Stuffers, their tendency is to internalize their loss through silence, hoping to digest their pain. In other words, if I hold in my pain. I can hold myself together. And of course, when it comes to grieving, this can be very counterproductive. Kathy: That sounds exactly like me. I know that I always go inward when I'm dealing with anything, but when there's a loss, since my brain is in overdrive, trying to figure out how to cope and find a way to move forward, I am, what you just said, attempting to digest my pain. And manage it. Right. Kevin: You're showing your strength through what you can handle. Kathy: Sure. Kevin: But the challenge with that is that grief needs to be processed. Kathy: So would you say that you're a Stuffer too? Kevin: Oh, that's a good question. Yeah. And actually, I am not a stuffer. I'm the other kind of griever. So the second kind of griever are the sharers. Right. So you're a stuffer, but I'm actually a sharer. So the sharer expresses their grief any chance that they can get. And they do this for all sorts of reasons. But some of the most common reasons or the ones that I've experienced myself or I've heard are “I'm being vulnerable and authentic. That's why I'm talking about my grief”. Or, “I don't want to be superficial. That's why I talk about the hard things”. Or, “I like connecting with people. We should all talk about this stuff more often”. Or, “sharing my story makes me feel less alone.” Kevin: You see, the main obstacle and tendency for sharers is to externalize their loss through story, hoping to diffuse the pain. In other words, if I get my pain out, I can get back to myself. So where you see, the main tendency of stuffers is to utilize silence and hoping that they can digest the pain, it's the sharer who tries to externalize their loss through story, hoping to diffuse the pain. What we need to move away from is the silence or the story. Move away from trying to digest or diffuse and try to rethink about how we can process our grief. Kathy: Right, but what I don't understand the question is what's wrong with sharing your story? Isn't that what the whole goal would be? Kevin: That's a great question. There's nothing wrong with sharing your story, but we all know those people who share the same story over and over and over again, especially as it's related to somebody that they've lost or something that they've lost or a change that's happened in their life. We refer to these people as being "story stuck". I think we've all been there in our lives, though there may be something in our life right now that we're stories stuck in. And what happens is that we're telling the story again and again, feeling the emotions, the highs and lows of the experience, but not processing the underlying pain and the trauma that that story caused in our lives and the identity shift that's come from that loss. Kevin: And so it really requires, whenever you're getting into story of stuckness, it usually requires some type of professional help so that somebody who's trained in processing that story to help really break it down and get you to that meaning making in order to find a way forward through it. Kathy: Okay, so that makes sense. So for the sharers, story stuck is the issue, but for stuffers like me, how do I break my cycle? Is there something that I can work on? Kevin: Yeah, so I think it's really just about building a practice of externalizing that pain, and a few simple ways to do that is through journaling. Oftentimes the stuffers are naturally introverted, and so journaling is a practice that doesn't feel so daunting and overwhelming to talk about your feelings. You get to process through writing. I think also stuffers can practice externalizing that loss through sharing with a trusted friend, inviting them to coffee or a phone call, just to say, hey, I want to share this thing going on with you. I just need you to listen. I'm not asking for advice or for help. I just want to take some time to share with you what's on my heart today. And I'm not even sure exactly what I'm feeling or how I'm doing. Kevin: I just want to tell you what's on my mind and have a space to do that. And I know that you're a safe person who could hold that space with me. So I think whether with a trusted friend or in a journal or if you feel like you've attempted those two things and you're still feeling a little bit stuck or feeling silent, reaching out for some therapeutic help might also be wise as well. Kathy: Wow, that's really helpful. And so just to clarify, what are the two main ways of processing, again? Kevin: The two tendencies of grief really are the stuffing and the sharing. Kathy: Is it a possibility to be a blend of both? Kevin: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. This is actually one of the most common questions that we get when we include this in a grief workshop. There's times in your life that you may be stuffing. There may be other times in your life, other types of losses that you share, and there may even be some spaces in your life that you feel comfortable sharing and other spaces where you decide to stuff. And that's natural. Kathy: That's helpful. And so remind me, what is the practice I can use as a stuffer? Kevin: So as a stuffer, the tendency is to internalize, and so the practice is to externalize. So what you want to try to do is get the story out. And you can do that through journaling, talking with a trusted friend or speaking to a therapist or a counselor, somebody who can walk you through that story. Kathy: And then for sharers like you? Kevin: For folks like me, we must seek ways to focus on our pain rather than the story so that we might begin to process the loss. So Sharers can also utilize journaling, and instead of journaling the story, we can hone in on the pain, hone in on the loss, hone in on the change that's occurring. So what I recommend for Sharers is to move away from narrative journaling and start doing bullet point journaling. And what I would like for Sharers to do in their journaling is to use a list in order to identify the list of losses that have occurred. That's going to help us focus in on the pain behind the story rather than just the narrative that can-- Kathy: Keep us stuck. Kevin: Yeah, exactly. It's going to actually help us feel less stuck because we're moving away from that story of stuckness. Kathy: Well, Kevin, this was all super, super helpful. As we think about the ways that we process our grief, I'm wondering, as we end our conversation, if we could all just pause for a moment and ask themselves this question: are you a Stuffer? Are you a sharer? If you are a Stuffer, what are you currently stuffing right now? If you are a Sharer, what do you need to focus on to process this upcoming week? Kevin: So whatever you may be coping with, blessings to you.

297: Freedom & Running [00:00:00] Angie: All right, so today we're continuing our series about how running is connected to our core values. And today we wanna talk about how we like to connect freedom to running because we believe that running can bring so much freedom into our lives and help us live a life without limits. But unfortunately, we see so many runners actually losing that freedom because they're training without intention and direction. They get caught up in the grind, shackled to a training regimen that isn't right for them. I had to say it for you there, guys. I think you did. It's a great line. tied to a goal that no longer matters, right? Like they're just tied to this goal and this training plan, and it doesn't bring them joy. They're not into it anymore and that can lead to feeling stuck or trapped, which is the opposite of that freedom that so many of us are looking for. Some people think that running with a plan restricts them, and today we wanna talk about how being intentional and creating a plan that's right for [00:01:00] you can actually bring so much freedom into your running and into the rest of your life. [00:01:04] Kevin: Yeah, I mean, you got so many good points there, angie, just in the intro, just in the intro, like , Angie put the, the outline for us together for us this time and, and your line that that gets me is, is shackled to the running. Like I just, it makes me think of, Christmas, Carol Uhhuh with Marley, like carrying around the chains behind us. Jacob Marley. Yes. Where it's . Is that, is it Scrooge McDuck doing? [00:01:28] Angie: I don't know. That was a really poor accent. Whatever was think was the pretty, that was Scrooge, I think it was, but I, I don't know what [00:01:34] Kevin: what we're going for there. Great. but that's what I picture is trying to run, which is, you know, physically taxing, but doing it well, feeling like you're literally dragging behind the, like the weight of, of the run itself. Not just like the physical challenge going out and running it, whatever, whatever the pace is, but just of like, you have to go out and do the [00:01:53] Angie: thing. Yeah. And that's not a good feeling. And I know that some runners definitely get to that point if they're in a [00:02:00] training cycle, whether that is a half marathon training cycle, a marathon training cycle, or maybe you're not exactly training for anything right now. And we're gonna kind of get into all of those points within the episode today. So we wanna start off by just. Making this point that running gives you wings. Like I know that's kind of the, old Red Bull. Is that still their slogan? I think that's still their slogan. Yeah. Yeah. slogan there. But like we, God, I hope they don't sue us. Oh, I didn't say Red Bull. I said running. Oh, okay. Running gives you wings. I hope they sue us [00:02:29] Kevin: and we get like super notoriety because of it. [00:02:31] Angie: Actually because of one line from a random podcast. Yes. Yeah. I just don't think we're on their radar. but we believe that running can give you that freedom. We believe that running gives us freedom in so many different ways. And the thing that we see a lot of runners. Doing here, like we said before, is like feeling stuck and why, what makes you feel stuck? What makes you feel trapped? A lot of times I think it's that feeling comes from focusing on what you can't do versus what you [00:03:00] can do, and also not realizing the progress that you've already made. Like, I think that we get into our running journey and we start setting goals, and we start following plans and we wanna just keep getting faster, running longer. All of those things are fantastic, but if we're not making that progress that we wanna see right away, or if we are just like looking at those goals and seeing how far away they are, like so that, you know, I've just, I can't do that yet, or I'm not able to run, you know, the pace that I wanna run. if we're focusing on the stuff that we can't do versus on the things that we can do, that can definitely lead to that feeling of stuck and trapped. [00:03:44] Kevin: Oh yeah. Cuz you feel like you're not actually making any progress. Yeah. Cause if all you do is look forward to goals that you haven't made it to yet it feels like you're always missing. Yeah. If you periodically take time to look backwards and you're like, oh wow, I've, I've done all of this. Like, I mean [00:04:00] this, this episode kind of makes me pause for a second of like, to think back of the years and years of running that I've got like , I remember my first run, I was like a mile into it and I'm like, This is really, really hard. And at the time I was basically running as hard as I possibly could. For as long as I could. Like, that was, I was 14 and just going for it. [00:04:19] Angie: Poor training philosophy. [00:04:20] Kevin: Poor training philosophy. I had no clue what I was doing. Like I had no coach. My dad got me shoes and said, all right, we're, we're gonna go. So I just took off. Yeah. but to see like the progress from there to here is, is crazy how far that is. Mm-hmm. so, well, there's goals that I'm like, man, I, I wish I was at that point to look backwards. It's, it's phenomenal how far I've actually progressed. [00:04:43] Angie: Yeah. And so we think it's really important to what, you know, when you're looking at the freedom that running can give you to really just stop and acknowledge yourself for how far you've already come. If you're stuck in this cycle of not feeling like it's enough or not feeling that like you're where you want [00:05:00] to be yet, just take a quick pause and look back on your running journey up to this point and think about where you used to be and think about how far forward you are now from that point, right? And acknowledge where you are and then kind of take stock and assess where you are right now. We've talked about the importance of this, previous podcasts, about the, you know, really understanding where you are in your running right now and getting clear on that before you try to set goals, before you try to make any plans to move ahead, you have to know where you are and what I would love to encourage all of you to do, and I would love for you to reach out to me on Instagram at real life runners and let me know what you come up with here. But I would really like for all of you to just take time to list three wins on your running journey and or ways that you're running has improved your physical or mental health. Because if you really think about it, you have come far. I don't [00:06:00] care if you started last week or 10 years ago, right? Like if you started last week, A win is, I started, right? Like I got out the door, I bought my first pair of running shoes. Like there are so many different things, right? Like if you think about it, how many pairs of running shoes have you gone through if you've been running for 10 years? Oh my word. Right. Well, I mean, that's always the fun thing of like the, the shoe that I'm in has a number on the backend, it says that version. Mm-hmm. . I've been in that shoe since before that shoe existed. Mm-hmm. . So the fact that it's on like the 18th version means I've been in that shoe for more than 18 years, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So, take time to do that. You know, I, I said come up with three, come up with as, as many as you want. You know, like 10, 20, 25, 30. I mean, you could probably come up with a lot, especially if you're looking at some of these little wins along the way, like we mentioned. I mean, [00:06:52] Kevin: you have a great one there. Like if you just started last week, getting out and running is a big thing. Going to like a specialty running shoe store [00:07:00] and talking to the people there and buying running shoes. Yep. You've gotta make this big acceptance thing of I'm going to financially invest in myself and put myself in a place where I might not feel super comfortable. Yeah. Because going into this store where there are quote unquote real runners mm-hmm. and what if they look down on the shoes that I walk in with? Yep. Like, do I have to have the right socks to even go into this store? Mm-hmm. , I don't even know what's going on. Right. Like that could be a big hurdle for some people's, even just trying to go through the process of buying appropriate running shoes. [00:07:30] Angie: Absolutely. And so if you have. Bought running shoes and have started out the door, those are both wins, right? And if you are much farther along in your journey, just kind of take time to look back on some of your favorite moments in your running journey and really look at all of the freedom that you really have gained in your running journey. Because what I want all of us to understand is that there is good and bad in all things, in all situations. So it all [00:08:00] depends on what you want to focus on. So if you. Right now are focusing on all the things that you haven't done yet, or the goals that you haven't achieved, or how long it's taking you to achieve these things, you're going to feel very negative. You're gonna feel very stuck and trapped and limited and restricted. Whereas if you look at all of the wins, all of the progress that you've already made, you can already start to see some of the freedom that running has brought into your life already. [00:08:27] Kevin: Yeah. I mean that that everything in life has both sides to it. Yeah. So being able to, to choose [00:08:33] Angie: life is 50 50. [00:08:34] Kevin: Right. And you get to focus with side which side you want to focus on. Which side do you want to give more attention to you could stare at the negative side or, or you could look at all of the positives going on. Look at all the progress that you have made. If you keep taking into account and being grateful for all the progress mm-hmm. , you're going to start seeing more progress. If you keep looking at things that you haven't made yet, I bet you can start adding to that list just almost [00:09:00] as easily and you're not gonna get to a happy place that direction. Yeah. So keep looking at the things that you can be grateful for, that you like, I've done this and this and this. Look at all of my accomplishments and it'll start the momentum going that direction. [00:09:11] Angie: Exactly. So it makes me think, you know, when I think about this idea of focusing on what I want or what I've already accomplished, focusing on more of the positive things it makes me think about training my dog. Okay, so we've got a miniature poodle. She's adorable. Her name is Indie and she is two years old. And we got her when she was about 12 weeks old, right? 11. No, yeah. We got, we got kind of got thrown like we were supposed to get her at one point it kind of got pushed back, but somewhere around that, around that range. I decided I was going to train her myself. And so I bought a dog training program because I knew nothing about training a dog. And so I found a fantastic dog training program. Shout out to Baxter and Bella. So those of you that if you have puppies, go check out Baxter and bella.com. I'm totally not being paid to say that they're just a [00:10:00] fantastic company and really helped me learn how to train my dog. but they focus on positive reinforcement. So their big thing is don't tell the dog what not to do because they don't understand that. Tell them what you want them to do instead. So if they are currently doing something that you don't want them to do, Give them something else to do. Tell them the behavior that you want for them. So say, you know, someone comes and rings the doorbell and the dog starts barking, instead of saying no or quiet you, I'm gonna tell them, go to place. Right? Like, we have a, a place where Indy's supposed to go when, the door rings. And so she's supposed to go to her place. And at first, when that happens, when you're trying to teach her this, you tell her what to do, and then you treat her, you give her that reward. So we're focusing and we're rewarding the behavior that we want. And so if we are as runners, like our minds, although we are much smarter than dogs, they still operate on similar principles. There are things [00:11:00] that we can use like opera and conditioning, classical conditioning, ways that we can reward ourselves to allow to create habits, to create new habits and new associations, positive associations with certain things in our brain. So if we are looking at our running and we're constantly focusing on the negative, we can understand why we're gonna start feeling negative about our running, but if instead we look at all the positive things and all the ways that running has brought more freedom to our lives, that's gonna be, you know, we're gonna have a lot more positive feeling toward our running. [00:11:31] Kevin: Yeah. I mean, that works with so many people. I think. Yeah. It, it works very much with runners. You know, we, you say that we're certainly smarter than a dog, but many miles into a long training run. Mm-hmm., I am Right on the same level. Like, tell me what to do and then give me a gel and I will just like, oh, and now tell me what else to do and gimme another gel. Yeah. And, you know, it's very, very similar. I don't think it's, it's all that different from the dog brain. [00:11:55] Angie: Well, and this is just habit formation. Yes. You know, like 1 0 1 habit [00:12:00] formation 1 0 1 is there's a cue, there's a behavior and there's a reward. That's how you create a new habit. Mm-hmm. . And so, yes, we can see it very clearly with dog training, but it also works with us as humans. [00:12:11] Kevin: Yeah. But the negative also works. Yes. Like if, if you. If you keep associating whatever the, the repetitive pattern is mm-hmm. with negative thoughts, you're going to just keep bringing up those negative thoughts over and over again. [00:12:24] Angie: Right. So, look at your running and decide which, what do you wanna focus on? Do you wanna focus on all the negatives and where you aren't? Or do you wanna focus on all the positives and how far you've come up to this point, do you think, which one do you think is gonna motivate you to actually get to where you wanna go? Because a lot of times people think that, well, if I'm hard on myself, if I tell myself that I'm not good enough, then that will motivate me to do more. And they've actually done studies that, and, and shown that that is not true. That more people are inclined to you know, continue forward, reach higher, do more when they [00:13:00] are built up along the way, not when they're pushed down. [00:13:02] Kevin: Yeah. I mean, this kind of reflects how we coach our cross-country team. Yeah. Like, At the, at the end of the race, whatever the times are that Kings come across with, we always are trying to get them to tell us something positive that happened out of that. Sometimes the answer is they ran their fastest time for a 5K ever. Yeah. But sometimes they didn't. Mm-hmm. and you can see it in on their face that they are pretty down on themselves. Yeah. And it's pretty easy to turn that around. You just ask them, what do you, what do you wanna remember about the, about this race? Mm-hmm. that you did really, really well. Yeah. And they can come up with it, you know, they might have to push a little bit, but if you do it after every single race, you do it after workouts, you do it after an easy run, after a long run, whatever, it'll start the brain thinking, Hey, what positive thing just occurred? Right. Because running has positive aspects to it. [00:13:48] Angie: Absolutely. I also like to think about running as giving us freedom to dream big, freedom to challenge ourselves and freedom to explore. Freedom [00:14:00] to explore on a couple different levels. Like, I like exploring, like in, you know, practical terms. Okay. Like actually exploring on foot, like going to new places and really exploring, new cities by running, you know, running around the new city and kind of just checking out different things. I think that that's a really fun way that we can explore just the world outside of ourselves. But I think that running also allows us the freedom to explore who we wanna be and, and what kind of a person we want to choose to be in this world. Because I think that a lot of times, you know, runner. Kind of limit themselves without even realizing it. Maybe they want to set a goal, but they end up procrastinating and just not setting that goal, not choosing a race, not, you know, really working towards something and not, not to say that you have to race to be a runner because you obviously don't, but. Someone that has this desire within them to do something with, they're running and they're just kind of not [00:15:00] committing to a decision. [00:15:01] Kevin: Yes. They have this idea that they'd like to run a marathon or a half marathon. Yeah. They even have a goal time, but they just keep putting off when they're going to actually start trying to directly chase that goal. Yeah. It seems like a good goal for a little bit later. Yeah. For down the road. Also, you're liking to explore new cities on foot. I, I cannot get on board with that one. Why? I've heard so many people on different podcasts, they're like, oh yeah, new City and then I like to talk around the city. I hate stoplights. Oh, okay. I hate stoplights. Yeah. It's honestly, it's why I like running so early in the morning cuz you get to a stoplight and there's no cars there. Mm-hmm. . So if you want to just go across the street, just go across the street. Okay. [00:15:40] Angie: Well what about if it's not a city, what if it's a more, suburban or like country type of area. Sure. Like more nature. Sure. [00:15:48] Kevin: Gimme As long as it's safe country roads. Yeah, I could, I could work that. Yeah. Exploring new cities just sounds like the worst way to try a new city. It's like, oh, one block at a time. . It's just not, it's not me. [00:15:59] Angie: Yeah. I [00:16:00] just like to see different forms of nature also. You know, like, because here in Florida we're so used to the beach and the heat and flatland, so when And the heat you go and the heat . So like I love running in California. Mm-hmm. because the terrain is so different, the weather is so different. Like I love, you know, running in the hills because down here we have none of that. So that to me is, sure we do, there's that overpass and the other overpass exploring on, but yeah. But a lot of times people kind of hold themselves back because they don't set a goal because they're not sure if they can achieve it. So we don't wanna commit to it because I don't know if I really wanna put it out there, I'm not a hundred percent sure if I'm going to achieve it. And that can lead to this feeling of like, Unsatisfaction and not feeling fulfilled because you never actually set a goal for yourself. You're never actually chasing something to see if you're able to accomplish that thing, or kind of the flip side of that people do set a goal and they end up chasing a goal that no longer [00:17:00] matters to them. Right? They just pick a goal to pick a goal so that they can just set like an arbitrary goal. And it doesn't actually mean anything. And then they just feel like, well now I've set this goal, so now I've committed to it, so now I have to continue down this path, even if I don't really wanna do it. [00:17:15] Kevin: Right. And that goal may have meant something when they set it, maybe didn't, maybe it didn't. Sometimes people just set completely arbitrary goals, but sometimes you start with a goal that really does mean something to you. Yeah. But over time, it turns out that, you know, maybe you grew, you evolved, maybe your life changed, life changes. Right. You just view running differently now. Mm-hmm. , like you found a different aspect of running that you like more, and that goal just doesn't it? It doesn't light the fire the same way that it used to. Yeah. So at that, Why are you still trying to pursue that goal? You probably are actually kind of halfway between these two things. You've got this goal that's kinda like pulling you sort of, but you're also not even directly aiming towards that goal. So you've got this goal, but you're not [00:18:00] working your way to it as a great way to feel unsatisfied and unfulfilled is there's a vague goal that you're not moving towards. [00:18:05] Angie: Right. And I think it often leads people to feeling very restricted also oh yeah. Because if they don't really connect with that goal anymore, whether they did in the past or never did you know at all. if they feel like now I'm just stuck chasing this goal, I'm restricted to like this one thing only. [00:18:23] Kevin: Ooh. Yeah. Like if your, if your goal was like a half marathon time. Mm-hmm. there's no point in trying to race for a really fast 5k. Right. Because how is that fast 5K going to perfectly set you up for the half marathon. Mm-hmm. . I just have to be so head down and driven. Half marathon only. Right. Maybe I run four half marathons during the year aiming for my best. Mm-hmm. . Takes away the chance to go have like a family fun run Turkey trot or like Right. The jingle Bell jog and L thing. They all seem to be holiday Racistly, . But you know, it takes some of that fun away or just you're out [00:19:00] on vacation instead of just being able to explore the trails of wherever you went to. Mm-hmm. , you're like, no, no, no. I've got this plan that I've gotta stick to because I've got the half marathon race coming up. [00:19:09] Angie: Yeah. Like, I have to do this tempo workout, Uhhuh because this is on my race plan. Yes. And that race plan ends up being very restrictive instead of giving you more freedom, which is what we're gonna talk about in our next section. But what we want you guys to realize here, if, if this is resonating with you or if you know people that you know might fall into this category, there's a saying that my friends and I use often , and it's one of those sayings that can apply to a lot of different situations. And that is, it's just running. Yeah. It's just running like this is a hobby that you've chosen for yourself so you can change your mind anytime you want to like, you don't have to be locked into one goal. If that thing no longer lights your fire, change it. Right? Go pursue [00:20:00] something else. None of this actually matters, and it all completely matters all at the same time. That's the weird paradox of all of this. [00:20:09] Kevin: Yeah, I mean that's the, it's just running is a great line. But the second one, I love this line is none of this really matters, but it's also incredibly important. Mm-hmm. because when you have a goal, it is super important. It's super important to you. Really important, but really important to you. Mm-hmm. in the grand scheme of the world and expand it, the universe, you hitting a PR is not actually changing the universe Right. All that much. So it really doesn't big picture matter, but to you and maybe to those people close to you, you know, we had our, our Family Connection episode last week. It might matter a lot to that group of people so it is something that helps drive you, that helps push you forward, that helps try to extend you outside of your, your current boundaries that you're putting on, on yourself. Mm-hmm so that does [00:21:00] matter a heck of a lot, the very specifics of what that goal is, and whether you do reach it or you don't reach, it does not matter. Right. Striving towards the goal matters a whole heck of a lot more than achieving it. [00:21:11] Angie: Yes. Having a goal matters, striving toward the goal matters. The person that you become in pursuit of that goal matters, but the actual goal itself. it doesn't really matter because that number is different for every single person. You might have a race distance, you might have a race time, and it's completely arbitrary. You're the one that decided that that was your goal, and that is a beautiful thing. So we are not saying that it doesn't matter because it does to you, and that makes it very important. But whether or not you achieve that goal specifically doesn't actually matter because it is in the pursuit of that goal that you challenge yourself, that you dream bigger, that you explore what you're actually made of, or who you want to be you. You [00:22:00] get an insight to how you deal with adversity, how to become more resilient, how to pick yourself back up when things aren't going well. Like all of the lessons that we learn in our running journey, we learn in pursuit of a goal, not by actually achieving that goal. So whether or not you achieve that goal means nothing about you as a human unless you want it to, like, if you decide this means that I'm this kind of person, okay, fine. You get to make that choice. But it doesn't actually mean that you're just the one that attached that meaning to that goal. And I would argue that it's not an a achieving that thing that you become that kind of person or that kind of human. It is in the pursuit of that goal that you become that kind of person. [00:22:47] Kevin: Yeah. I mean this is, there's a thing about like climbing a mountain. You spend most of your time on the side of the mountain. Mm-hmm. and very, very little time at the actual top of the mountain. Yeah. So you really gotta focus on the [00:23:00] whole climbing the mountain thing. Mm-hmm. not standing at the peak. Right. Like, it's great to have a goal, but you are doing a whole lot of steps. Mm-hmm. up the side of this, you know, mountain essentially. And then maybe you make it to the top or maybe you don't, but most of the journey is spent on the side. Yeah. So that's really where your focus needs to be. [00:23:19] Angie: Right? Because I think a lot of times, like if you've ever fallen into this trap or know anybody that has, where they don't, like, you're nervous to set a goal because you're like, well, I don't know if I can actually do it. I don't know if I can actually achieve it. Who cares? Who cares? If you set a goal and you don't achieve it, you do. That's it. You are the only person most likely that cares whether or not you achieve that goal. Your family, your friends, might be there supporting you and they might want it for you. Yeah. Right? Because they know it's important to you. So they're on board with you. Right. They're, they're supporting. Like if you, if you achieve it, they're there to celebrate you. If you don't achieve it, [00:24:00] they're there to try to pick you back up. Mm-hmm. . But they care about it because you care about it. So the only thing that you're actually worried about, if you really break this down, Is the judgment that you're going to place on yourself. You are going to judge yourself if you don't achieve that goal, that's what you are worried about. Like if you find yourself not wanting to set a goal because you're not sure if you're going to achieve it, the only thing that's there is your judgment of yourself. If you really start to dig really deep and get down to the core of it. So if you understand that it's just running and that you can choose to judge yourself or to not judge yourself however you would like, then running can give you the freedom to explore and set big goals and try new things and decide who you wanna become in the process. And that's what training with intention will give you the freedom to do. When you understand that, when you put an intention behind it, when you set a goal for yourself, when you have a direction for [00:25:00] your training, it allows you the freedom to like say, all right, this is where we're going. Like, let's see what happens. [00:25:06] Kevin: Yeah. And, and you can change your mind. Yes. And I mean, this is, when you started this, you said that there were, we gotta make sure I've got the, the wording on this right? There's, there's goals that might, might not matter to you anymore. And this is, this is a number that, it was a number goal that I put out there was running a marathon in 2 37 in Change. It's running a marathon at six minute per mile pace. Mm-hmm. . And for a long time, like I was pushing myself towards that goal, but. after really trying to figure out why and where that goal came from. I broke down all of these things that I had built up, that I had raised this 2 37 as some sort of like, if I can run that right, if I run it, then I actually have validated myself as actually a fast enough runner as actually good enough. Cuz it goes back to like this experience I had in college where I didn't feel like I was fast [00:26:00] enough on the college cross-country team. And there was, there was a long run that we were on and Coach said, you guys are on 2 36 pace for a marathon. And everybody else joked about it. Like, well, okay coach, but we're training for an eight K. And you know, to me that stuck with me of when I was there, I was that fast. So if I could be that fast, if I could complete a marathon in that pace, then I'm, then I'm good enough. Mm-hmm. , but I've given up that I need to hit that time to be good enough and I've just accepted that I'm good enough , so [00:26:35] Angie: I'm curious. What your thoughts are now, now that you've kind of broken this down and really examined this goal. Yeah. What are your thoughts on your marathon pr? Because what I want you guys to understand is that Kevin's marathon PR is only a minute slower than this. Like it is, he's run a 2 38, which is a 6 0 2 pace. Yep. Right. Which, and before was not [00:27:00] good enough. Right. Like, that was not your goal. You're like, that is not my goal, that's not what I was going for. So how do you feel about that now? Like that performance? I mean, obviously you didn't achieve that exact time, right? [00:27:11] Kevin: I didn't achieve the, the actual number, but I'm, the longer I run, the less connected I am to the actual numbers on the clock. Mm-hmm. . And it took a long time to get there, and I don't know if I'm ever gonna completely disconnect from the numbers on the clock. [00:27:24] Angie: I don't think you have to completely disconnect. I, I don't like it's just keeping them in perspective. [00:27:28] Kevin: Right. Yeah. And you know, it was, it was remarkably close. But I, if I look at it that way, I always think that it was close, but came up short when I think about it, of like, man, I really pushed myself, I really went really hard that day. I went out aggressive. I tried to stay up to the front. I pushed myself good pacing throughout. I wanted to walk and I just kept pushing and grinding. Like all, everything that should happen in a marathon, I'm getting exhausted. My legs feel like lead and I'm so [00:28:00] dragging myself. I'm catching up to half marathoners and I'm like, okay, just pass this person now, and now pass this person. I had a finishing kick in that race. Mm-hmm. , which I don't often have much of a finishing kick, like everything. [00:28:12] Angie: Which race was that one? Was that Space? Space Coast. [00:28:14] Kevin: Yeah. had an actual finishing kick in it. Like there are things that didn't go correctly in that race, correct. Fueling wise, ideally. Oh, okay. No, literally correctly. Oh, okay. Like there are things fueling wise that didn't go correctly cuz I, I checked out the map and went all the, like the gels and drinks and things. Oh, oh, right. I got to like, where I was gonna take my first gel and they didn't have them to pass out mm-hmm. , they gave me a cup of water and so it mess with my fueling pain. Right. So that also then just messes with my head, this was like, you know, I'm trying to figure out how to do this whole thing. Yeah. And I, that didn't have anything to do with it, but it does start you down a negative path. I mean, maybe it did. Sure. You know, there were, the, the little bit of energy would've been helpful. Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] or just knowing that I was staying on plan. Right. Would've also been helpful. Right. Either of those. [00:29:04] Angie: So was there a physical or a mental Or both. Or both, [00:29:07] Kevin: yeah. But either of those could have been enough to knock off Two minutes. So does that mean that I, I. at best, A 2 38 marathoner. No. I could probably go faster, but I don't need to go faster anymore. Mm-hmm. and a few years ago I literally, I needed to, like, if you asked me like, how, how much do you want this? I'm like, no, no. I need to go another minute faster than I've run before. Mm-hmm. . [00:29:28] Angie: Yeah. And so you have changed your goal Yeah. Over time into, I want to get faster into, I just wanna keep running longer and challenge myself in that direction. [00:29:40] Kevin: Yes. [00:29:41] Angie: So when, when you look at your one hi 100 mile goal now, , right? Because I know that when we talked about this before and you know, if you guys are curious about Kevin's journey to a hundred miles, we've did, we've done like a couple podcasts about that. When was that? Last year. We we're in 2023 now. [00:30:00] So he attempted his first 100 mile race in May of 2022. So you'd have to scroll back a while in our episodes, but there's some episodes that talk specifically about that, and like kind of everything that happened surrounding that race. But spoiler alert, he didn't get to a hundred miles in that first attempt. And so when you think about it now, I know that, you know, at that time you had thought of it as, I don't know if I can actually do this. Right? And that was the intriguing part to you is Yes. Is actually putting myself out there not knowing if I'm actually going to be able to do this thing, right? [00:30:36] Kevin: Like, I know that I can run 26 miles, I had to pick it to the end of marathon. How fast is it, is the question mark. Right? But can I actually make it the, the complete distance of a hundred miles? Mm-hmm. , that's a whole different, that was the question. That was the unclear. [00:30:49] Angie: So what are your thoughts on that now? [00:30:51] Kevin: That it's still an unclear mm-hmm. and that's what I find most exciting. Yeah. I find that more exciting than how fast can I run a marathon right now? Like [00:31:00] that right now is where I'm most intrigued. [00:31:03] Angie: Yeah. So I think that that's really important because, do you find a freedom in that? . I find excitement in that. Okay. I don't know if freedom is the right word for it. [00:31:13] Angie: But when you have a big goal like that, do you feel like it gives you the freedom to just like challenge yourself and try new things and like let's just see how this goes? [00:31:23] Kevin: Yeah. Like I don't feel. Restrict. I don't feel held back by that goal. Yeah. Because the goal's almost so big that it's like, well, I mean, let's just give it a shot. Mm-hmm. , like, it's, I think that's why everybody needs to have this, like, all right, here's what I think I could get, and if I followed a plan, I could probably get to this. Mm-hmm. , there's like your reasonable goal, but I think having the big goal helps you release the need for this, like step-by-step plan. Mm-hmm. , because honestly, the step-by-step plan, it's not perfect. It's not magic. Like there, there's not gonna be like, you know, input A, B, C and get the output of of X, Y, Z. Like that's not exactly how it [00:32:00] works. So sometimes having this goal that's so big that you're just like, I don't know. I think that if I do these things, I can get close to the goal. Let's give it a shot. That's where you get that excitement of. Let's, let's get so excited about trying to strive for that goal. Mm-hmm. that the goal is cool and if I get to the goal, awesome. And then I'll come up with some other crazy ridiculous goal. But the goal so far out there mm-hmm. that just chasing it seems so exciting that it's just like, I think these things are gonna work. I think this is my best way to go for it. And I mean, I've put in a whole lot of effort into trying to figure out what it is the best way to train for it. I think that you as, as much as you were very supportive of me in this, I think from a Angie is my coach perspective, she might have been more satisfied that I didn't get to the finish line on attempt number one because it's head to completely overhaul the way that I train. [00:32:55] Angie: Wow. Oh, I, I don't think that that's necessarily true. [00:32:59] Kevin: At [00:33:00] the time, you were totally supportive and, and super disappointed and like comforting and with me and like this is, you know, all along [00:33:07] Angie: I was disappointed because you were disappointed. Like I wasn't disappointed in you. [00:33:10] Kevin: No, not disappointed in, yeah, disappointed because I was disappointed. [00:33:13] Angie: Like for you. Yes. Yeah. Like I was sharing in your disappointment. [00:33:16] Kevin: Yes. But I honestly, I thought about this on my run today and I tell me, I was like, I'm gonna bring this up on the podcast. Oh, here we go, . I think, well, you know, I like putting people in uncomfortable situations, so Of course. and let's do it. And, and, and it's not uncomfortable. I just think that part of you was sort of like, I. Not like, haha, I was right. Mm-hmm. , but on some level, haha, I was right. You're not wrong. I know you're not wrong. I know, and it wasn't haha, but it was kinda like, because we have a different support level here, right? Like, but if we are, if I'm being completely honest, like yes, there was part of me that believe that you should have done different things in your training leading up to that point. Right. And so there was an element of like feeling [00:34:00] justified, which again, did not diminish my desire for you to achieve that goal at all. No, not at all. Like, like once I was like, okay, well we're going [00:34:11] Angie: for it. Once you were in, I was like, all right, let's go. Like we're all in. What can we do at this point to, you know, help give you the best chance to achieve that goal. Right. But it would've, it's not like I would [00:34:21] Kevin: sabotaged if you . No, God, that would've been awful. I mean, you could not have been more supportive. Yeah. But. . It would've been very interesting if I had made it to that finish line, if I would have changed my training plan the way that I have. Hmm. Or would I have essentially been like, look, I made it. Now I just need to do a little bit more of this. Mm-hmm. , which is su such a trap that we've talked about on so many podcasts, is I did pretty well with this training plan. I just need to do a little bit more of this training plan. Yeah. Instead of being, of taking the, like the brave jump of what if I did it differently? Yeah. [00:34:57] Angie: Well, and that's really hard jump to do. Like that's a [00:35:00] really hard leap to make for a lot of people. And I'll, I'll be honest [00:35:03] Kevin: with you. It's freeing though. [00:35:05] Angie: That's true. That's true. but I will be honest with you, part of me wished I was. Right? Yeah. Too, like part of me, , , [00:35:14] Kevin: the part that had to climb into [00:35:15] Angie: the car. So like, I'll tell you guys, like, you know, there's like a lot of behind the scenes that happens between Kevin and I. Like Kevin helps coach Kevin, coaches me, and I coach him. We coach each other and somehow we make that work, you know, with, with our marriage, thank God. and it's not, it's not an easy balance because there's, there are times that I'm like, can I speak to you as a coach, not as your wife, right? Yep. And I think that that was the big differences. And we had multiple conversations about this leading up to that 100 mile race of there are times that I'm gonna be coach and then there are times that I'm gonna be your wife. Yeah. And, and how do we know the difference and how do we na navigate that, you know, so that both of us are, are on board on the same page, understanding that, and that's all about [00:36:00] communication. and so there. , like in the discussion of Kevin's training for that a hundred mile, there was a big thing that you know about nutrition, about gaining weight, about gaining muscle. That I thought he needed to focus more on, more strength training, more weight gain to get him, more fuel reserves to before he got to that starting line. [00:36:20] Angie: Mm-hmm. . And that's not what happened. That's not how he chose to, to train. And that shows you that even if you've got a coach that is also your wife, you also get to make your own decisions. And that's what Kevin did, right? Like Kevin trained. in the way that he thought was going to best serve him to, to achieve this goal. Yep. And he and I happened to disagree on what that exactly looked like. [00:36:46] Kevin: Right. So then in the post race, we also slightly disagreed on why I didn't make it to the finish line. And I think we have, months removed from it, accepted that both of us [00:37:00] are right and neither of us are entirely Right. That's. I think that's what we've come [00:37:04] Angie: up with. Yeah. We're both right. We're both right. [00:37:06] Kevin: Yes. Yeah, Absolut, because afterwards I was like, oh, well it had to do with my hydration and my fueling strategy. And you're like, yeah. Or you could have lifted some weights beforehand and it's both. And that, that's the thing is it's both. It was entirely both. So, [00:37:20] Angie: and it's what each of us chose to focus on. Yes. Like kind of going back to what we were talking about before. [00:37:25] Kevin: Exactly. Right. Where do you, where do you wanna put your focus? Yeah. Because I would've seen that as my issue. And then just doubled down on that. Tried to fix more of the fueling and the hydrating strategy. [00:37:34] Angie: Well, and I agreed that fueling was the issue. You just thought it was during the race fueling. Yeah. And I also said it was your fueling in the months leading up to the race. Right. That you didn't put on enough weight, in my opinion, to, and, and who knows, maybe that's wrong. You know, like maybe this time around now that you're lifting weights, now that you're eating more. Will you be the same weight on the starting line? Maybe. We don't know. [00:37:56] Kevin: Right. I I think it's far less dependent on [00:38:00] the number on the scale at the starting line. Correct. Correct. And far more like overall fitness. Yes. Like bringing a certain level of strength to the starting line is totally different. So there's, there's that. But yeah, I think we, we dove down that, that rabbit hole for quite a while and [00:38:13] Angie: which is fantastic, you know, and I think that like, I don't know if there's a bunch of people out there that listen to the podcasts that are thinking about ultra-marathons, so maybe you can connect with one of my examples, which is my first half marathon. Like when I first saw Kevin run his first half marathon, that's what got me even remotely thinking that I wonder if I could do this right. And it was that big goal, being able to set that bigger goal for myself of, because at that time, you know, I had all these stories about the type of runner that I was and all these things, but setting that big goal for me of a half marathon, completing my first half marathon, was a very freeing experience because it allowed me to break down [00:39:00] some of my walls and some of the stories that I was telling myself about what I could or couldn't do. Yeah. And I think that that's one of the big things that setting that bigger goal will give you the freedom to do, to say, okay, well if I'm gonna set this goal, then I've gotta actually do the things that are going to give me the best chance of achieving this goal. And that means that I'm going to have to, you know, actually say that I'm a runner, actually follow a training plan, actually, you know, have structure to my weeks and try to get faster, try to run longer, like try to do these things. And it really helped to break down my beliefs about myself as a runner. It helped to break down my beliefs about what I could and couldn't do, what I was and was not capable of. And if I hadn't gone on that journey, I don't know if I would be where I am today. And ongoing on that journey, it then opened up even more freedom to challenge my, [00:40:00] my thoughts, challenge my beliefs about myself being a slow runner, right? Like I had labeled myself as a slow runner for a long time. Okay, now I can do a half marathon, but how fast could I get? Right? And so for me it was, can I break 24 minutes in a 5k? And I didn't know if I could do that. I was definitely not a hundred percent confident in my ability to do that. And, but I trained as if I was going to be able to, yep. And that's the key, is believing that possibility of that outcome in training. To give you the best shot to get there. And I'm happy to say that, that I did do that but again, it wasn't in the achievement of that, that achieving that goal. Yes, it did. Like crossing the finish line of that half marathon, crossing the finish line of that 5K under my goal time, like gave me that like shot of like, heck yeah, I did that. Right? It's that extra shot of confidence. I did that. But even if [00:41:00] I hadn't gotten that exact time, I probably would've kept working for it because I still had that goal. I still had that belief. And just because you don't get it that first time around, doesn't mean it's not possible. [00:41:12] Kevin: Excellent. For those of you keeping track at, at keeping score at home, the the examples Angie put in are her half marathon PR and breaking 24 minutes, and the examples that she put in for me are not running my marathon goal and not completing my hundred Mile race. Just for those of you keeping score at home, Angie did write the outline for this particular episode, just in case we're curious. [00:41:35] Angie: That's hilarious. I didn't even think about that. Okay. So what about a goal that you achieved that helped you? [00:41:40] Kevin: No, no, no. Let's move on to the next one because you discussed something that I think is super important. [00:41:44] Angie: Oh my God, that's so funny. [00:41:46] Kevin: In training for your half marathon in training to break 24 minutes. Yeah. You said, I've gotta start doing the things that, that runners do. That a half marathon does that, someone that a fast runner would do. And part of that is following a dedicated training plan. Yeah. [00:42:00] So you get all these runners outta here that are like, okay, but if I follow a dedicated training plan, then I've gotta, I'm, I'm trapped. I have to do this plan. Mm-hmm. I feel so shackled to the plan, shackled to the plan, restricted by the plan. I can't just go out and do whatever I wanna to do. Like what if I feel tired on this day, the plan says I still have to go out and run six miles. Right. Like, So many people don't wanna follow a plan because they feel the plan will hold them back. Because they feel restricted and shackled, if you will, by the, by the plan itself. Right. And that's just not the point that, it's just not how that works. [00:42:33] Angie: Yeah. Cuz they, they, instead of following the plan or having exactly everything planned out for them, they wanna just go out and do whatever they want on any given day and that leads to them not making the progress that they want, which actually makes them feel stuck and restricted. So it's like this vicious cycle. It's like, oh, I don't, I don't need a training planner, or I don't want a training plan because that feels too restrictive. I wanna be able to go out and do what I wanna do. But then you're not making the progress that you wanna make so [00:43:00] you feel stuck and restricted and. Round and round you go. Right? And so what we want you guys to understand is that a plan actually gives you more freedom. Yeah. [00:43:09] Kevin: Because a plan doesn't have to be, this is exactly what you need to do at eight o'clock in the morning. Yeah. And then this is what you're doing at nine 30. And like it depends on what works for you. Very good point is your plan needs to have enough structure that. it, that the structure actually gives you freedom. Mm-hmm. , it has enough kind of constrictions to it, enough rules that you're following that you're like, oh, well as long as I follow those rules over the course of the week, I can almost move things wherever I want. Mm-hmm. , like, I like It's is like matrix style. Yeah. Like there are certain rules that that exist and there's other rules that can be bent and there's some rules that can be just completely ignored. Mm-hmm. , but within some essentially framework, well, that's how training plans work. There has to be an overall framework, right? That everything exists in, but then you know, there's [00:44:00] some rules that you can bend a little bit and there's some rules that you can move and adjust some plans a little bit. [00:44:04] Angie: There is no spoon. [00:44:05] Kevin: There is no spoon. [00:44:06] Angie: Right. Because there is no hard, there are no hard and fast rules for what makes a perfect training plan. Okay? The perfect training plan for you is the one that makes you feel the most free, that gives you the most freedom to go out and actually see progress and actually work into your lifestyle and to with your priorities and with what you want to achieve because there is something so freeing about not having to figure it out every day, right? The, A plan can give you freedom of mind because you know exactly what you need to do every day. You don't have to try to figure it out. You don't have to think about it. You just need to go out and execute, and there are so many, there's so much freedom that comes from that. There's something, you know, there's so many different studies out there about how many decisions the average human makes per day, and it's somewhere between 6,000 and like [00:45:00] 80,000. Like the range of like number of decisions that we make, it's a lot per day's so huge, right? [00:45:05] Kevin: I try and make as few as possible. We've actually had this discussion this morning. , Angie makes all decisions as we're getting ready for school. She literally wakes up all the other humans in the house and then prepares food for the small people. I do nothing. Like I get my, you get yourself ready. I get my own food for lunch and breakfast and kind of say hi to everybody else in the house. That's it. That's my, that's what I'm responsible for. Angie's responsible for every other thing that takes place. [00:45:32] Angie: And it becomes a lot, you know, but like a lot, that's why I've also created a structure for school lunches. Yes. This is actually a, a perfect example, right? I know that every day my kids get a main course. So that could either be, you know, maybe it's chicken nuggets one day it used to be chicken nugget Friday, but it's lent now. So we have chicken nuggets on Thursday now, chicken nugget Thursday. We don't eat meat on Friday for the, the next six, six weeks. You know, ham, rollups, like [00:46:00] salami, they, they can like a little charcuterie in there, but they have like a main item that's, that's kind of the, the main, main event. And then they get a fruit and then they get a vegetable. And so I just have to like, okay, I have to just fulfill these three categories. Yep. And that makes it easier versus like, okay, I have to pack a lunch. What do we have? It's like boom, boom, boom. Check, check, check. Yep. So creating that structure makes the lunch packing process much easier and many less decisions have to be made. I have to make a couple, but [00:46:28] Kevin: You have to make a couple but you have a, you have a guideline. Yeah. Same thing happens with my particular training week. I actually don't have the, the laid out structure all week long of this is exactly what I'm doing on each day. Yeah. I know this is what I'm gonna accomplish over the week. Mm-hmm. , I know that I'm probably going to lift on Tuesday and Friday, and I don't, when I know that I'm lifting, I just follow exactly what the plan says. Mm-hmm. , like, I follow Angie's Lifting plan. I do this, this, this, and this. I have it listed. This is exactly what I lifted [00:47:00] last week, so this is what I'm going to lift this week. No thinking on that. But like my, my speed workout is gonna fall somewhere in the middle of the week. Mm-hmm. , depending on how other days go, depending on if I get enough sleep the night before, it can kind of get moved around. Mm-hmm. . And then what it is also kind of depends on how I'm feeling that particular day. Like, do I feel like my legs are gonna get some good turnover? Then I'm gonna push the higher end speed. Am I just dragging this week? Has it just been mentally a tough week? I'm gonna try some workouts that are mentally easier for me. Mm-hmm. , because I'm also kind of far removed from my next race also. So I have even greater freedom in that. [00:47:36] Angie: Right. You have more freedom because you don't have that like very specific race right now that you're training for. Like you're in more of a base building more mode. Right now you're in a strength building, so it's important for you to still maintain certain mileage, certain speed. Yeah. But that's not the focus of what you're doing right now, and it's more of that strength so you're, you're very closely following your strength plan. Yes. Because that is the focus. Yeah. So that's what you foc you [00:48:00] focus on executing. And so the beauty of this training plan, or any training plan really is that you just figure it out once and then you just have to follow it. Yeah. And you can modify. And so Kevin likes his to be a little bit looser. I am more structured with my training plan. I do an easy run on Mondays. I do a speed workout on Tuesdays. I lift on Wednesdays, I do a run on Thursdays. And depending on what I'm training for, like if it's a base building, it'll probably be just another easy run. if my legs are feeling really good and I wanna throw in some extra speed that week, I can do that, depending on what my training load looks like. Or if I'm training for a race. Then I'll throw a second speed workout in that week. And then, Friday's my rest day. Saturday's my long run, and Sunday is a strength day, so I know exactly what I'm doing every single day. I don't have to figure it out. I don't have to know, you know, well, okay, what am I gonna do today? Like, I already know, this is just my week. And that structure just gives me so much freedom [00:49:00] because I don't have to think about it all the time. And that's why I love following a training plan. I just look at it, I'm like, okay, well this is what I'm doing today, or this is what I'm doing tomorrow. [00:49:08] Kevin: Right. And then if something comes up because life comes up. Yeah. This is the real Life runners podcast stuff comes up. Having a, a more laid out plan for you actually gives you greater freedom to adjust. Yes. The more clear your plan is, like, oh, well I do this on Monday, I do this on Tuesday, do this on Wednesday. Tuesday just exploded in my life, so I don't have a run on Tuesday anymore. Mm-hmm. , I don't have a run, I don't have a time for a strength. There's like, the kids are doing this, this and the other thing, and this one is sick and I don't have Tuesday. Yeah. So now looking at my time, where am I gonna move Tuesday to, mm-hmm. I don't have to like, now guess my whole week. It's like, okay, do I move Tuesday or do I just skip Tuesday? and then, you know, it gives you some options that you can work with. Mm-hmm. , and then you go from there, like having the plan is you're set up to being able to make just one more [00:50:00] decision. Do I move it, do I skip it? [00:50:01] Angie: Yeah. Because you have guideposts Yes. You have guiding principles that allow you to make that decision and not feel bad about it. Right. Like if you do decide, okay, this one I'm just not gonna be able to fit in based on what else is going on the rest of the week, then I just have to drop this. You can let go of that judgment or of that guilt for skipping a workout and saying, okay, but I might miss this one, but I've got the rest of the week planned out. I'm, I'm good to go. I think that following a plan. also gives you the freedom of progress because you put in the work and then you get results. And those results are not always linear. Those, those results are not a math equation, right? It's not like if I follow this plan to the T, this is exactly what's going to happen. I'm for sure 100% going to run. That's sub two hour, half marathon. That's not what we mean, but if you're following a plan, you should be seeing results. And there's a lot of freedom in that, knowing that if I'm putting [00:51:00] in the work I am, Going to achieve a certain outcome. I'm, I'm actually going to see something. It might not be the exact result that I want. It might not be the exact timeline that I want, but I will still be moving in the right direction. [00:51:14] Kevin: Yeah. And you know, this leads to a couple of of good examples that you have put out here, which is another PR that I didn't get to. No, I'm kidding. [00:51:20] Angie: No, another good example of that, like smokes me in all prs. So, you know, [00:51:26] Kevin: it's fine. [00:51:27] Angie: There's always that. [00:51:28] Kevin: Not, not, if we tried to plank off against each other, that would not even be close. No, I've got you on that. All right, so great example here is a school handbook. I have been part of trying to recreate the school handbook at my school. I think you brought this one up on behalf of the girls, but within the school handbook. I think it's over a hundred pages. I think it's 146 pages long. Yikes. Because it provides very clear expectations. Mm-hmm. , all of the scenarios that could be laid out, they're all there. These the exact guidelines under this scenario. So there's no gray area. Yeah, there's no like, well, I wasn't quite [00:52:00] sure. Oh really? Because here on page 123, it says exactly what was supposed to happen. Mm-hmm. . It provides clarity. Yeah. And clarity. Well, people are like, oh, I feel super restrictive from that. No, no, no. Clarity means you don't have to think about it. That provides a whole lot of that freedom of mind that we've talked about here is it's very clear what it is that you are going to do or are not going to do. [00:52:19] Angie: Yeah, and I think that there are the, we still maintain a freedom of choice no matter. Plan we have in place good points. No matter, you know what expectations there are, we always maintain a freedom to choose. We always have the freedom to follow that plan or to not follow that plan. That is a given choice every single day. But if you decide, no, no, no, this is what I want. Now here's the freedom, you know that I just have to follow this and then I know that I'm gonna be not, I don't wanna say doing the right thing, but on the right path. [00:52:53] Kevin: In terms of like school handbook. Yes. Yes. If I would like to not get a detention, I just follow the rules, laid out in the handbook, boom done. [00:53:00] If I want to aim in the direction of a race pr, I'd like to run a farther distance. Here's the plan, here's the path. If I follow the steps, yeah, I might not get exactly to the goal, but I know that I'm gonna make solid progress towards that goal. [00:53:12] Angie: Yeah, and the other thing I think about too, when I think about how structure can provide freedom is like, A clear job description. Like if you are going into a job and you know exactly what you're responsible, responsible for, and you have clear markers of success, that's gonna be a lot easier for you to do your job and to have freedom within that job because you're like, okay, I know that I am responsible for x, y, z metrics, so how am I gonna get to that? And it, it, it kind of gives you that freedom again to maybe explore a little bit depending on what you're doing. Of course. Like if you're a factory worker on a, an assembly line, you, you not a whole lot not exploration there. Yeah. Like you're, you're responsible for that one thing. Right. But I think that it can make our jobs a lot [00:54:00] easier because you understand what you're supposed to do every day. So how would that job be if you didn't know what you were supposed to be doing every day? And I think that that's what makes entrepreneurship so tough. A lot of people go into business and wanna become an entrepreneur or start their own business because they think it's going to give them more freedom. And it does in a lot of ways, right? I have the freedom to choose what I do every single day. I have the freedom to help whoever I wanna help, but the choices are so many, so broad. A lot of people feel very like stuck and overwhelmed because it can be very overwhelming to try to just decide, okay, well what kind of business am I gonna start? Am I gonna have a coffee shop? Am I gonna start a coaching business? Like the possibilities are endless. And when possibilities are endless, though that seems like the definition of freedom. Of freedom, it can actually make you feel very stuck because you're not sure what direction to go. [00:54:59] Kevin: And you're [00:55:00] not very satisfied. Like this is something that I just read the other day and I tried to figure out where, like whose Instagram I, I saw this off of, but it was talking about like job satisfaction. And they said one of the biggest keys to job satisfaction is employees knowing what is expected of them. Mm-hmm. having a very clear job description is you're responsible for this, this, and this. And then, Not having managers just like hover over them and micromanage. Just saying, these are your responsibilities. And then having the expectation that those responsibilities are gonna get taken care of. And the opposite of it, having really vague boundaries of what, like success at this job does leads some of the greatest levels of job dissatisfaction. Some of the mm-hmm. The greatest, like burnout and, and desire to quit the job. [00:55:45] Angie: Yeah. But how do you think satisfaction links to freedom then? [00:55:49] Kevin: I think the more freedom you feel within your job. Like I, there are restrictions I have within my job. Mm-hmm. , like, there just are like, I have to be in the classroom. Like, I can't [00:56:00] just be like, eh, you know what? For a third period today, I feel like, coffee break. Like, that's just not how it works. Yeah. There's going to be kids that show up. So there are certain rules that I have to follow. There's state standards, so we have to be able to cover certain material and stuff like that. Right. But, outside of like, here's overall what needs to get covered. No one tells me what needs to get covered on Tuesday of the third week of school. Yeah. Like I don't have that. No one's checking in on me on like a daily basis to make sure that I've Oh, have you given, have you given your first test of the semester? Mm-hmm. , have you given your second at this point, like, that's not where it's at. It's you need to make sure that the kids learn this stuff. Go for it. Mm-hmm. And that's essentially what I've got. And then I have a lot of support coming from the people around me, which is, yeah, kinda the benefit of having a coach also is they kind of give you like a good path and then help support you when other issues come up. [00:56:49] Angie: Yeah. So apparently our, our wonderful dog here, if you guys can hear, I don't know if, because Zoom has a very good filter. Like I, hopefully there's not getting a lot of squeaks under the, we we record on Zoom our, our podcast. So [00:57:00] hopefully you guys aren't hearing all of the squeakiness. But of course our dog decided now is the time to, to play with this doggy toy. But anyway, I think it all kind of comes down to how you want to define freedom in your life and, you might think that freedom means having the choice to do whatever you want, whenever you want. And I mean, quite honestly, we all have that choice, right? Yes, we do. Like we all can choose, like you could choose not to go to work tomorrow. That's true. Like you have that choice, but then the consequences of that choice would come after it. Like, exactly. You would probably get fired, which means that you wouldn't get a paycheck, which means that that would affect, you know, the, our, our family's finances. Like there are consequences of all of those choices. [00:57:39] Kevin: I'm not gonna be p be able to pay, raise entry fees. [00:57:42] Angie: Ultimately that's what it comes down to is I can't pay the race entry fees. But you do have the freedom Yes. To make that choice. And I think that it's about how we look at freedom and how we find freedom in our life. And we think that running can help you with that freedom to give you the freedom to explore within yourself, the freedom to [00:58:00] explore the world around you, the freedom to set big goals and challenge yourself and that a plan can give you the freedom to go out and execute the freedom of mind that you don't have to think about it. The freedom, knowing that you are doing something that is good for you, that's going to help give you the great

We are all leaders in some area of our lives whether it's in the office or at home. How do we know if we are good leaders or the traits that could help maximize our strengths? Listen to this conversation to remove the limiting beliefs and define leadership for you. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:What does it mean to be a good leader? How you learn to be kind to yourself How to properly understand and utilize your Strength Finders resultsDefine your limiting beliefLearn to master your mindset and your heart set Episode References/Links:Strength Finder 2.0Kevin Kepple IGUnlock Your Freedom PodcastKepple Coaching Website  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyUse this link to get your Toe Sox!ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan  How do you say your last name Kepple?Kevin Kepple  Correct. I do that too.Lesley Logan  I swear I'm a professional.Kevin Kepple  I do that too. Like, "Oh wait." ....Lesley Logan  All right. So I'm like I'm just gonna tell you right now it was, this podcast is a party. And also our guests, Kevin Kepple has so many lines, so many words, so many nuggets, so many gems that I'm that I don't even know how we're gonna quote them all because there's so many good ones that I cannot wait for you to hear in your ears. So if you are listening to this while drafted an email, may I suggest that you hit pause on that email. And you take some time walking with this podcast or grab a notebook because Kevin Kepple is someone who like all of us, started off at one thing, is doing another thing and found, found the best way to be the person that he is. And y'all I'm going to tell you right now, one of those nuggets is about being more not doing more. Oh my gosh, I cannot wait to hear how you be more instead of do more after hearing his words, this podcast, our conversation. I have so much gratitude for Kevin and hope you enjoy this. Let me know how you take the this podcast away, what your test takeaways are. If you answer those questions he gave you at the end they're so great, they're so brilliant. In fact, they're questions you can like literally write down somewhere copy and paste every time you need them. They're freaking great. So without further ado, here is Kevin Kepple.Hey, Be It listeners. Okay, I'm super excited because this man who are you're about to hear is really awesome. Talk about being it till you see it, they have so many examples and that they truly are walking the talk. And so I have Kevin Kepple here and I'm really excited to share with you his amazingness. So Kevin, who are you? What do you do these days?Kevin Kepple  What? What's up, Lesley? As you said, Kevin Kepple, you know, I get to work with lots of different types of leaders, usually executives, or business owners, and really help them create more access to happiness and aliveness. And, you know, if we want more, it's not about doing more, being more as the goal and just really helping them be more of the natural genius that they have. And stepping into that so they can serve at really high levels and their own unique expression of amazing.Lesley Logan  Okay, so many things to love about that. And of course, you know, I love the being more like, I mean, you're at the right podcast for that. But how did you before we get into being more? How did you get into this? Like, was this something that you started out right away? Or how did you start to see that, like, leaders out there needed to stop doing so much and being more than they were doing?Kevin Kepple  Yeah, I mean, I woke up one day, when I was a kid, I knew exactly what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And it was so easy, and (Lesley: Who are your parents?) everything worked out perfectly. No, I wish. No, no that isn't true. You know, I, like a lot of people have had you know different jobs, I went to college, got out of college, and happily ever after. Right. And I got a job that I was good at, but then have a lot of joy in and expose lots of different types of leaders, you know, they're teachers, sports, corporate career, other jobs, and there's good leaders, and there's bad leaders. And I just remember being really frustrated when in one day, when I had a, the VP of the company was screaming at me and profanities. And I just feel like there's got to be a better way to lead people. And so I've got a lot of contrast of what not to be, which is great, right? Really grateful for that. And, he's doing the best he could with what he had. I worked in different types of professional sales roles for years. And I worked at enterprise software sales for a number of years and worked in financial services as well. And I was winning the trips and all that good stuff. And I got promoted, because that's what happens when you do well at a job right, you get put in charge of people like that makes you a good leader, for some reason.Lesley Logan  It's true. That's exactly how it goes. They just go, "Oh, this person sells a lot. So let's put them in charge of people."Kevin Kepple  Yeah. They must know how to tell people what to do, which is not leadership, right. And I've, you know, I figured out that I really enjoyed helping people, you know, like, be more without making it feel like less, like, that's always the goal. And you don't have to win my way to win. Matter of fact, you know, you're not going to win my way because we're never going to be creative making copies of other people. And I'd love to go further faster like whatever I'm doing, I want to maximize it. And so I was working with a coach. And I remember he asked me what I liked about my job. And this dude was awesome. He was in the Secret Service for almost 30 years. And he kind of looked right through, you know. (Lesley: Yeah.) And he's like, "What do you like about your job?" And I'm like, "Well, I love this. And I love that. And da da da." He's like, "Hang on, hang on." He's like, "Stop." He's like, "Dude, I don't think you'd like your job. You keep saying I love." He's like, "You're not even looking at me. Your body language is all wrong, your tone is all off." He's like, "Just one thing you like." And I had a lot of trouble getting there. And it's really like helping people, you know, the people that were on my team, I caught up in them just find the best, most authentic expression of themselves. And I'm like, okay, but that's such a small part of what I get to do, you know, like, and, like I really knew I was in the wrong place. I was on some trip, and there was like a teaching part we had to go to, and they were talking about tax codes. And I was, like, 30 seconds, I was ready to get out of there. I'm like, I think I'm really gonna slam my hand in the car door, then sit here and listen to this, because at least I have something to do think about ...Feel like I won a trip. And I've had to listen to tax codes, great.But I knew I was in trouble because I looked around and people were really excited. Like, everybody's like, engaged and into this and I was like, "Okay, there's definitely been some sort of a mixup." I'm not supposed to be here. And a coach is like, "Dude, what do you want to do?" I was like, "I want to help people." He's like, "Everybody wants to help people." And some form, he's like, "How do you want to help people?" And I had no idea and now he's like, dude, long story short, he's like, "I think you'd be a great coach." And then the limiting beliefs kick in and all the fear, right? I'm like, well, I don't really struggle because like, now if you throw a rock, you hit five coaches, right? Like they're everywhere. And you know, this was years and years ago, and ...Lesley Logan  Now if you throw a pebble, you'll hit seven coaches. (Lesley and Kevin laughs)Kevin Kepple  Yeah. Follow into. But, you know I really simple I just made it the intention, like, "Hey, you know, like, I want to find something that supports this dream." And there's a little bit more to it, but fairly simple. And I looked on LinkedIn, which I didn't do frequently, and I saw an opportunity with this international multibillion dollar company that's based in Dallas where I live, and for a national sales and leadership coach, and I'm like, "Hey, that looks cool." And so I took that job. And the only requirement was I had to move to Chicago. And I was really smart about it, though. I was like, oh, wait till after winter, and I moved in May. I didn't know Chicago does extra winter. So it (Lesley: Yeah.) was still snowing at May. It was really great. I worked for them for about three years. I got to really coach and train people all day, every day and work with powerful people. And I really learned how to do it, I do it at a high level and stepped over started my own thing years ago. And it's all good, now.Lesley Logan  Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's all it's got its own journey because working for yourself, it's its own thing to learn. But what I what I find, which I like love, like, "I want to work myself." And like it is actually as hard as working for someone else is just a different kind. But I what I love about this is like you, you challenge yourself to like put yourself in a position to be for someone to see you and to see like, what, like maybe what you weren't seeing because I think a lot of us talk ourselves into the jobs we're in, or like I'm just I'm really good at this and like keep getting promoted. I I literally had to quit a job. So they would stop promoting me because I like if they promote me one more time. I'm gonna say yes. I can't stop. I can't stop. So I think like, you know, I think it's I wish I had as a secret service person going you don't actually do you know, you don't like this job? Did anyone ever tell you? So when you sort of go into leadership coaching, what is it that you see? Because like, there's a lot of people in leadership roles who actually want to be in these roles. And there's a struggle because they want to they think doing more is the thing. So what do you think makes a good leader? And what is it different for each person? Or what what is this, what is something like a sign that someone should take like, "Oh, I'm a good leader."Kevin Kepple  Is anybody following you? Right. Like, because leadership's not a position like you can be the President of a company and not be a leader, you know, leaders like an action really. And, you know, leadership is different than management, management is telling people what to do. A powerful leader is going to inspire and empower people and inspire me, you stimulate me to action, you power me, you give me knowledge and tools of how to do it, you know, but winning with my gifts, not winning your way. And I think that just no, are you telling people or are you asking? It's probably the simplest way to know if you're exhibiting leadership or just simply management because you're telling me what to do this not leadership has told me what to do.Lesley Logan  That's so fas... that's the best description I've ever heard. I'm like thinking of every single, like, my brain just went to every single boss I'd ever. (Lesley laughs) And like, um, and it's so cool, because that means you don't have to get a promotion at work to be a leader in your in your role.Kevin Kepple  Yeah, and dude, anybody can be a leader, like, you know, like, god bless moms, like we wouldn't be here without moms, like one of the hardest leadership roles in the world. And you know, you're like, I went to a four year olds birthday party this weekend. I was like, man, it's like, they're all drunk and on drugs, like they were all over the place. And that Spiderman there and little kid walks up to Spiderman. And he goes, "My favorite superheroes is Batman." I was like, "Your, that's leadership right there, buddy. Speaking up for what you want." You know, but I just think it's, it's a behavior. It's not a position. And, you know, like somebody's watching you, period. And there's like, certain leadership traits for sure, you know, that you can pay attention to an increase, but really, it's just about, you know, how are you showing up?Lesley Logan  And so when you were stepping into this new role, was that an easy thing for you to figure out? Was that something natural for you? Or did you actually like have to, I don't know, like, get lessons on on and leading versus managing.Kevin Kepple  I think I'd spent so much time thinking about it, and just always really gravitated towards leadership positions, whether it was played baseball and hockey for a long time. And, you know, it's not always I don't need to be the one in charge. But, you know, quite often, you know, leaders are going to emerge just because of the behaviors they're exhibiting, etc, etc. I love to read, and I love to just study people who are successful and see what they're doing and how I can use that to help people you know, through my own style, and had some really great, so there was, of course, a learning curve, and they're always learning, right, like, I don't know, is the most powerful phrase I ever learned how to say it took me three decades, but I finally got there and learned how to mean it. But just watching other people, you know, like, what do they do well? Like, what are they doing that I shouldn't be doing? You know, that contrast is so powerful too. And just being really, I think just being really kind as opposed to right was one of the best things I learned how to do like kind of myself as opposed to right about what I was doing wrong or kind of other people and just learning to not need to be a certain way to be okay. I think that allowed me to evolve pretty quickly.Lesley Logan  Yeah, that kindness to ourselves, um, That's not something, I feel like, I feel like maybe going back to those little kids at a birthday party, maybe there's a natural kindness that they have. But somehow, at some point, we stopped getting, stopped being so kind to ourselves and we start putting others maybe I don't know, I've been out of the corporate world so long but putting other people and being nice to them versus being kind to them, but nice to them at least versus ourselves first and I wonder, I mean, you really can't be a leader if you're not being kind yourself because you're gonna make mistakes. So how did how do you learn to be kind to you?Kevin Kepple  I think it's, you know, the great skill, right? Choosing love over fear. It's like, you know, if I'm be in love, that's I'm gonna attract more love into my life, or that's like unconditional love. Not romantic, necessarily. But unconditional love. It's like not because like, everything we've ever done was motivated by fear, love, if you look at every decision you've ever taken, I guarantee you, you can boil it down to one of those two and fear can wear hats, right? Guilt, anger, apathy, shame, pride, all those are fear based, right? Forceful behavior. And love is love and unconditional love means like, I love me, no matter what happens. I love you, no matter what you do. Like, I don't have to like you to love you. Right. And that's, that's why we get married. So we can practice that with our in laws, right? I don't know how to ... (Lesley laughs) Yeah. That's a joke. (Lesley: One of my in laws listens to this podcast.) We're not talking about you.Lesley Logan  We're not talking about you. (Kevin: You're cool.) Other people's in laws, though, those ones. (Kevin: Yeah, on TV.) That is, well, thank you for sharing that, because what a great example of like, of a kind of love that we are practicing in our lives. Like, I think some people may I know some of my listener that can be so hard on themselves, they may not realize that they're actually practicing unconditional love in different ways. And, and there's a difference between liking someone and having love for them. And so giving ourselves credit for where we are in practice, and, and, you know, an honoring that because when you can see that you are in practice, and you can practice again, and you can show up another day. So when you work with leaders, like what is your what is your first thing? Do you observe them in practice? Do you like be a fly on the wall in their office? Or like, what's your process?Kevin Kepple  Here's what's wrong with you. (Lesley and Kevin laughs) And we're gonna need more than an hour, you know. No ...Lesley Logan  Just my assessment.Kevin Kepple  That's fun. That would be fun and really hard at the same time. But, the first was a start. So have a certified by Gallup with the Strength Finders tool, or ...Lesley Logan  Oh, we're gonna talk about that, that's my freakin favorite tool ever. Keep going. Keep going.Kevin Kepple  Yeah. It's so phenomenal like that right there. I mean, it's a cheat sheet into your elite levels. And it's not a complete portrait of your character. It's like, "Hey, here's what you do really well. But even maybe more important, here's what it looks like when you give all your power away." And like, what a cool gift, it's a cheat sheet into your, you know, extremely high levels of satisfaction and performance, whatever. And, like, we all know that everybody's different, right? But we always look, I'm gonna look at the world through her eyes, and you'd look at the world through her eyes as yourself, that's not gonna do you a lot of good. But if I can look at the world through your, like natural patterns of behavior and high energy, and you know, exceptional performance, like, that's really cool. And, you know, I think probably the greatest gift for Strength Finders was, if I had permission to be me, like I told you, I was working in finance, and I hated Excel. I hated it tax codes. Like, "I think there's something wrong with me." Like, "No, dude, you're just not built to like, that kind of thing." And that's totally cool. So I start with that, because, I mean, just one conversation with somebody, you can shift people so fast. You know, like, if I tell you, Lesley this, if I tell you, Lesley that, you may hear it, but if you see it differently from within, right, cite from within insight, like that's how you create lasting change. And, like, it's such a cool thing, because at this juncture, I've worked with 1000s of people with the Strength Finders assessment. And it's always like, so onpoint, people are like, sometimes when people get their results, like, "Well, this just isn't right." Like, it's usually because they don't understand it. And once I explain it, like, "Okay, that is me." And you know, we think we want or we don't have but then when you start looking at the things that aren't natural for people like, like, "Do you want to do that?" Like, you know, like, woo - winning others over is a strength, right? A lot of people who don't have it, like I wish I had woo. I was like, I have like an incessant need to talk to everyone shake every hand in the room, "Do you want to go talk to everybody in the room?" Like, "Oh." But people with woo like, "Yes," you know, and like, that's cool, man. There's nothing wrong with that. If you're built that way.Lesley Logan  I'm laughing because I'm 100% introvert and woo is in my top five. And it's exhausting because it's like, I can't leave. I need to go lay down.Kevin Kepple  There's somebody over there on the other side of the warehouse, I haven't talked to you. Yeah. You guys are so good because you protect the rest of us though. (Lesley: Yeah) Because y'all can actually get energy from that. And like, it's really fascinating to watch the people with woo work, and I was I use that specifically because I know I knew that you had to have it. As soon as we got on I was like, that's woo because you made me feel really good.Lesley Logan  Well, thank you and also I think like, also our strengths if we like leaning into them a little bit. Like I knew there was a time when like, I was not winning someone over. I was like, "I'm gonna stick around in this relationship till I win you over." And it's like, "Oh, actually, maybe it's just not that into me." Yeah, that's a, that's a story for another day, everyone. But here's what's here, you're gonna get a kick out of this. This is this is how much Strength Finders like matters to my husband and I. So we were on a first date that he didn't know he was on. And he just told me, he was going through a divorce. And I was like, "Okay, that's this person's not really going to be dateable." But then we started talking about, like, the businesses we ran and all this stuff. And he had a band. And he worked for a startup. And I had written a book. And he mentioned he's like, "Oh, have you heard of Strength Finders, 2.0." And I was like, "What are your top five?" And he pulled out his top five, I pulled up my top five, we've three that overlap different, different orders, and the top five, but three out of the five. And then he was like, "Do want to get out of here?" And so that was like, that was our way of getting together. (Lesley and Kevin laughs) But it is those in your you're correct in how it really makes you understand yourself. And like who you are so much better because I could not understand why there were certain things that would just like, I would go all end with light me up. And other things that I'm like this like, but like one of my top five is significance. So it's like, it has to matter. (Kevin: Yeah) It has to be important. And then I also have activator or positivity, woo and connector. And so it's like, those are I don't know which order they're in. But like, I feel like significant significance was in the top three and activator and connector on the top one up there. But like, I just I was like, oh, this is why like, I literally meet someone and I have to connect them over here. And I do like, I really love doing that. And my husband has told the story on the pod before. So if you've heard it before, I want your hearing again, but Kevin hasn't. He was trying to figure out how he like, why in the band he was the one making sure they all got paid and making sure all these things and he couldn't really figure out like, what, what like, made him up. And when he did that. He's like, "Oh, this is why I'm the person who does this at work. And this is why I do this." And it really helped him understand that he had transferable skills, not just in a band, but also in a business. And so now he's the CEO of our companies. But like how cool that a test like that could actually go oh, this is why you're so like, this is what you can do in another company. You don't have to just go while I'm in a band, you know.Kevin Kepple  Yeah, but that's such a great point you know, like, we're all different. We know that. But do we actually own that? And like, I have an older brother, he's two years older than me, but like, I always joke that like, "Dude you're born like 70 years old." He's like, "Always been like very wise and responsible. And just like, cartoons are stupid, that would never happen." Like, I'm like, "Dude, we're like four years old man ..." (Lesley laughs) And he's so serious. And I used to compare myself to him, right? The comparison game, we'd like to look at other people so we can feel inferior or superior, right? The worst game anybody ever plays? And I'm like, well, I can't do the things he can do because it's number one strengths, deliberative, it means he's slow. He's methodical. Assess every risk before I even start. And to you and I who have activator really high. We're like, dude, I got bored and quit listening. I just want to jump off the cliff, build the wings on the way down, right, whatever that looks like. (Lesley: Yes.) Don't give me instructions. Like that slows me down. I have to come back and ask for him later. But just don't give it to me up front. Just let me get started because ready, fire, aim is such an effective strategy for us. (Lesley: Yeah.) Just we're different ...Lesley Logan  Yeah. Oh, I hope my whole entire team listen to this because they I'm like, "I have this idea." And then they're like doing the whole project management. And I'm like, "I'm already, I'm already 17 steps ahead." I've already asked them. They said yes, these people are going to do this. And they're like, "Wait, you have moved to the process." And I'm like, "No, because I want to know quickly if this plane is gonna fly or not." Like, I don't want to build it (Kevin: Exactly.) and then it doesn't work.Kevin Kepple  ... with activator, what we get is that WTF look a lot because we start so far ahead of starting point is like, if somebody asks you to explain the alphabet, you're like, yeah, it ends with y and z. Like, wait, what? And it confuses people. And it's not like smart or dumb. It's just like, we're ready to get to the end. And we can begin with the end of mine really easily. And it's so powerful and so good to have people around you that can do the processes and support you and help you find the things that oh yeah, maybe we should get insurance but ...Lesley Logan  Well, you know what is also great about them because they are listening to us. Sometimes the idea is really fucking awesome. And it goes great. And then we need to fly again. So it's really nice when they're like okay, here we can just like repeat, rinse and repeat. (Kevin: Yeah.) Oh, this is so so okay, so people you have people do this and then you have them have them understand their strengths better. And, and then in turn, hopefully that helps them take these next steps as a leader just owning who they are as opposed to trying to be something that they're not in their role.Kevin Kepple  Yeah, absolutely. And really just helping, you know them understand like it's one of the cool things about strings like your natural sources of energy. And energies can be in different, right? Like it's power, it's our natural power. But, you know, gravity is super powerful, you know, you and I don't float away to the moon or whatever, right, thanks to gravity. But if we go up to the top of my house and jump off, we go crashing into the ground, right? It's not malicious, it's just going the way I direct it. So with my strings, I need to make sure they're pointed the way I want, you know, like, significant, you mentioned that one, I have that one fairly high too. And that's a really great strength, because it's about my make an impact, make an impact on other people, make an impact in the world, make an impact on ourselves. And that's the balcony. Right. The the good version, you know, that, that negative space on that the basement, if you will, you know, the basements like when I make things really important that aren't that important, right? And so, you know, maybe even making it all about me, right? The the the monster comes out, and then like, you know, just pushes people away.Lesley Logan  I feel like I'm getting a therapy session, everyone, because I'm like, oh, I do, do that. That is a bet. That is not so great.Kevin Kepple  But what's the wild with that assessment? Okay, so, Gallup, I love you guys. They're the ones who created Strength Finders, but like your marketing, people need to have a talk. I mean, you'd have a little heart to heart here.Same with their website.Yeah, their website, they just redid it a couple of years ago. I'm like, somehow it went regressed. But they rebranded Strength Finders to Clifton Strengths in the middle of the pandemic, because that's what you do when you have an assessment. Somebody's taken 30 plus million times you change the name to something even more obscure that nobody understands. Don Clifton was the guy who created Strength Finders, like thank you, Don in heaven. But you know Clifton Strengths assessment doesn't really help me understand what it is. And now it makes it harder to find for people. So StrengthsFinder is CliftonStrengths, same exact assessment. And they package it where you can buy the top five or all 34. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so like when I went to Gallup years ago, "They're like you have any questions?" I have lots of questions. And I'm like, "Why is competition not higher for me? I feel like I'm the best at Strength Finders." And they're like, "Yeah, it's number six." I'm like, "But it's not my top five." And so here's how you read the report just for you guys. Here's how you find your dominant strengths, your dominant strengths go all the way down to 10 11 12 or 13. Somewhere in those three numbers, like out of the again, 33 like plus million times I've done this. So you read when you read the top 10 in your head, you read the definition, it should sound like this. Yeah, that's pretty much always me. Either after 10, after 11, after 12 or 13, it stops and it stops. And it sounds like this, instead of being pretty much always meets. Well that sometimes me but not always. So you just draw a line right there. Everything above that line, those are your dominant strings. So even like 12 or 13 can be as strong as one sometimes. And just because of the way they package it though a lot of people don't understand that and myself included in the past. So ...Lesley Logan  That's interesting. I did the top 34 because I wanted to find a new assistant. And I didn't want to find another me because I knew I would like love someone else who was like me. I would love someone I got that'd be so much fun. But I'm an ideas machine. (Kevin: Yeah ... And what about the details?) Yeah, and those no details, correct. I mean, I married someone with a detailed up I thank God, but, um, but uh, but I made sure we have everyone who like has to be on my team. We like do their Strength Finders, and they have to like make up for the bottom. There's gonna be someone who can make up for the bottom. Because otherwise it's like, where's that thing? I don't I just threw up put in this folder. I don't even know. (Kevin: I got bunch of this.) Yeah, those folders.Kevin Kepple  It's funny, but you know, it's important to understand, it's not like a complete portrait of your character. It's your natural talents is all that this shows you and at the bottom is not weaknesses. It's just released express strengths. Like harmony is number 34 for me, like doesn't mean I can't get along with anyone. Right? It just means that I move fast. So I don't always wait for everybody to see what I'm doing. I see empathy at 34 all the time. And especially if it's a woman I'm working with the last, "Was that bad?" Like did that means you're a serial killer? It's really bad. Like really? Like, no, just like, super empathetic is not the end of the world. Does it mean you don't have empathy? It just means it's not like a dominant thing for you. (Lesley: Yeah.) And it's no big deal. And you know what, like, talent is not rare. Not at all. Like, I've never seen a blank report like nope, no talent for you. Sorry. Like, what's rare is people who have developed this talent into a genius they can leverage on demand. And genius has so much less to do with genetics than it does with habits. You know, get into the habit of being your most excellent self, whatever that looks like. And that's the trick right there. So simple, but not easy.Lesley Logan  So when you learned so far, because now everyone's taking this test while they're listening to us, and they don't do that you really want to be by yourself because they had to time test. But, but when you when you kind of like got into your strength, how did you lean into them without, you know like, is there is there a way of like leaning into them more or is their way of like, okay, I'm gonna exercise this strength more honoring those because I think you know, it's easy for people to go, oh, empathy is my worst one. I'm going to make that one better. It's like how did you stay in your in your zone?Kevin Kepple  That's a great question. There's probably a very eloquent way of saying this question that I get asked like, every time we were taught this or worked with somebody it's like, and like, so the basement is like our negative behavior, like when we're making it all about us with our strengths. Like, for instance, maximizer is my number one strength. Maximizer in the balcony is like, just fascinated with elite, like, whatever, like, mastery looks like in this, whether it's a person I'm working with, like, Lesley, like your champion is, I was so excited to be on your podcast, like I listened to it before I reached out, because I want to be around somebody, I feel like a master. And like, You're definitely a master at being with people and just do what you do. And that's really attractive to a maximizer, because I wanted to just be around it, so I can show you some of that for me and help people like her or whatever. And that's obviously really healthy getting to like just elite levels. The basement on maximizer is nothing's ever good enough, right? Like, well, let me just make it a little better and a little better. And it's like, how did you even get dressed today? If it's not like absolutely amazing, you know? And so it can be very picky. And so the question that people ask, like, how do I get out of the basement, once they understand the language, right? You know, it's like our blind spot. And like, man, it's really simple. Stop making it all about you, right? Because if I'm solely focused on me, then like, that gives the ego a lot of time to jump in. And, you know, the BCD is, you know, blaming complaint and defendant and fear and worry, and all those like, behaviors that take a lot of energy, but bring us little rights is an addiction, you know, like addictions all have the one thing in common, like repetition, but no payoff. And you know, people get addicted to that stress filled negative space of worrying, Kevin included in the past. And so the really the way that you can lean more into these is understand what good looks like, but also understand what you know, the basement looks like, so that, you know, what I'm aware of, I can actually do something about, you know, what I'm unaware of, that's the dangerous stuff is unaware behaviors that are just patterns in my life that take me away from what I want. And, you know, like, I can't give what I don't have, if I don't understand my strengths, and I can't use that not at the highest level. But Gallup has a great podcast, actually, if you can find it, like, they hide it somehow. But it's, it's phenomenal. I think it's called Clifton Strengths, they just rebranded that to after seven seasons. So they, they're really crushing it. But it's awesome if you do find it, because it's like 10 minutes of one strength. And you know, just like pick one a day a week. But I mean, like with anything else, like it's so important to make new decisions, like so often people make this judgment, like, oh, this is how it is like, even if it's a good thing. And whatever you like judged as being a certain thing, like you're no longer evolving there. It's like static, right? (Lesley: Yeah.) And so like, every time I go back and read about maximizer, I learned something new. Even though I've worked with this tool for years. It's still a new version of me. So I need to make new decisions, right? (Lesley: Yeah.) What, what is the next level of this look like?Lesley Logan  Oh, my God, I now have a new podcast. I'm gonna listen to it and be obsessed. But I also think that I've never heard of the terminology like the balcony in the basement. And I kind of love this because Brad's going to listen to this because we'll do a recap on you. We talk about you on air ... You have to listen to it. But like, now I can just go, "I'm in the basement. Leave me alone. I'm in the basement. I need to get out."Kevin Kepple  Sometimes we go into the basement, too.Lesley Logan  I feel that. I feel that. As an activator, I felt like that's really ... Oh my gosh. So this is I think this is really cool. So you, how many people are you like, coaching on leadership? And is this something you're doing all the time? Like is this like a you work with like one on one people? Are you just going over people's quiz like it's not a quiz? It's definitely a test. But like, are you are you going over these like individuals or with teams? How do you work with this?Kevin Kepple  That's a great question. So a few different ways, I do a little bit of one on one coaching, but not very scalable, because there's only one me. So I have actually some coaches that support the work that we do. So I have a good team underneath me that can extend out and do a little bit more one on one. But then I do a few different types of groups host a mastermind group for entrepreneurs and business owners that is really want to go further faster, you know, like minded people and like minded journeys, and I love that we're all co elevating together and also do some corporate work, I work with a couple of different CEOs, and then work with their leadership team as well. And just helping them really to, you know, be better, faster, smarter, and build a better, more powerful culture and really just lean into the gifts that God gave them to go out and create whatever their version of amazing is. And so long answer to a short question.Lesley Logan  No, but I find it fascinating cuz of course, my brain was like, well, do you like, do you make sure that there's a bunch of different strengths represented in your mastermind. Like my other and then another thought, because a bounce was like, are you ever do you ever do that with the CEO and their leadership team and realize, "Hey, you've got like these people doing like, the wrong roles." Do you ever like move people around so that they can be more aligned with their strengths or you kind of just help them find balconies in their roles with what they've got?Kevin Kepple  I mean, if they do internal shuffling, that's, you know, I don't really do the consulting piece as much as I have. But I really prefer just helping people figure out whatever it is that's, you know, stopping them slowing down standing in the way. Because it's like, when we're happier, we perform better period, right? (Lesley: Yeah) And we're all innately happy, we're just covered up with all this BS, it doesn't matter. And so a big part of what we do is know, like, limiting beliefs, right? So simple, but a lot of people just don't understand it. Even if they've heard the phrase, they don't, they don't know what's limiting them, right? And helping people learn to master the mindset and the heart set. Because so many people give away all that power, right? It's just the mindset, it's all they use, right? It's all logic and reason. I'm like, dude, your mind is a fraction of your being. Like, you don't have to use it all the time. Like when I sit down, I don't use my legs. Not much, right? I don't need to use my mind constantly. But if I'm trying to use reason and logic, where there's no risk and reason and logic, right, I'm eliminating all that. And I'm going to stick to the known and I'm going to crawl through life, like very slowly. But when I can go through the gut, right? That intuition, that knowingness, like, I know what's for me, like, I knew this podcast was for me. I knew the space was for me, right? And then I go into the heart, like, where's the energy? Where's the love? Like, dude, I love your attitude, your energy, the way that y'all do recaps. I'll heard y'all doing one. I was like, "Is that something they do all the time?" (Lesley: Oh, yeah.) Then the basement came out. And I'm like, "Hey wait, they're gonna do that about me." And I'm like, "Wait, that's awesome. I think it'd be really cool." And then like, go into the head for the planning, right? And then I did want to leverage that mind to create the plan. And then I use reason, then I use logic, right? Once I've already like, you know, gone through the, like, most infinite parts of me down here. And so if that makes sense ...Lesley Logan  Yeah, that's so far, there's, like, 17 things I wanted to touch on. But one of the things I love the beginning is you, you are not being everything in in that role, like, of course, you could probably consult for them, you can make it part of your package, but you are actually like, going, "This is what I actually do. This is what I really like to do. This is where I really excel and doing it." And this, and that's good. You know, I think a lot of times, I'm, as we coach people, they're like, "Well, I can do this, and I can do this, I'm gonna do all these things." And I'm like, "Okay, and you're gonna, that's exhausting. Do you really want to spend that much time with people do? Do you know how much time you just said, you're gonna make sure that person you're selling it to?" So I think that's because so because I think a lot of people would do that. So I love that you shared that because I hope it gives people listening permission to like, like, it's not limiting, because now you have like, it's like more energizing to do what you do by just giving yourself like, this is a thing I like to do.Kevin Kepple  Yeah, I mean, that's such a great point. You know energies, like, either there. It's not right. Like, we feel really good about things, or maybe they take our energy away. And that's a really cool thing again about this assessment. It just shows you your natural sources of energy. (Lesley: Yeah.) And you know, just like, "Hey, I've got this predisposition for doing this. So what does it look like when I invest time learn about it and actually using it?" And that's how your superpowers and it's so funny, like, I work with this tool, so many different amazing people and asked this question, probably 200 times, like, "Hey, tell me your top strengths." Like with somebody I've already worked with for a decent amount of time. They look at me, and I look at their phone, or they start going through their papers. Like waiting, waiting, and they finally fall, "Okay, oh my gosh, I can activate her and I got this. And I got that." I'm like, "Dude, do you think it would be awkward if we were walking down the street, we met Superman. And we asked him what his superpowers were. But he had to look at his iPhone and tell us he could fly like these are your superpowers? Don't you think you should just take the time to memorize them?" Like, and you know, like Kevin included because my coach will one point was like, "Hey, what are your strengths." And I pull it off the shelf? I'm like, blow the dust off.Lesley Logan  Yeah, I I love thinking of it like that. And I think I hope everyone listening goes and gives himself the test, if you haven't, or dusts off the strengths if you have and, and, and dive in and get to know yourself a little bit more. Because when we, the more we know about ourselves, the easier it is to, like, lean in and be ourselves and be that for others. And I think that's I mean, that's kind of how you be it till you see it.Kevin Kepple  Yeah, exactly. And know that so I read that in a good book once.Lesley Logan  All right, we're gonna take a quick break, and we're gonna find out how we can find out, how we can work with you more.So Kevin, where can people find you, follow you, share their superpowers with you?Kevin Kepple  @kevinkepple on Instagram or LinkedIn. Unlock Your Freedom Podcast with my name. Yeah, really any social media wherever you like to go. Yeah, just reach out if I can help and I love helping people. I've got a question. Let me know. If you're wanting to take the assessment by the way, it's kind of hard to find. We were talking about just Google Clifton Strengths Assessment purchase. That's what you put in like ... (Lesley: Put and purchase.) Yeah. It's gonna get you to the right place.Lesley Logan  We'll put the link below and if you don't know, everyone, it's really easy. You can just swipe on up and like my team puts all these links, including how to get to Kevin, how to get this podcast and all that. So but yeah, it's, it's also very interesting if you buy it for other people then you have to figure out how to find that purchase, but you can it's possible we we've done it. (Kevin: Yeah) So well have that their. So Kevin, we ask everybody be it till you see it. Bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted action steps people can take to be it till they see it.Kevin Kepple  Yeah, what a great question. I think like keeping it really simple, right? Leonardo da Vinci, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Like such good advice. So ask yourself two questions like, "What do I want? And why do I want it?" You know, what am I passionate about creating right now? What absolutely I love? And then why? How can I mix generosity into that? Because passion is a little selfish sometimes. And don't ask how. Because if you knew how you'd already be doing it, what do you want? Why do you want it? And you know, just without judgment, like what's slowing me down, what stand in the way was stopping me and find somebody powerful like Lesley pay her money so that she can help you go further faster, because you will always go faster with a really powerful coach. That is really really lethal, beautiful combination of a big heart and a big brain. And that's definitely what Lesley Logan is. And so I would highly suggest find somebody like her to take you wherever you want to go.Lesley Logan  Oh, my gosh, Kevin, well, like attracts like, so same to you. Thank you. These are great questions. Everyone, how are you gonna use these in your life? Let us know tag Kevin on Instagram, tag the @be_it_pod. Share this with a friend. Take your test, share your top five with us and your friends because the more we all know about ourselves, the easier it is to be it till you see it and if we're all doing this, I'm like, "What a better world we're all living in. So much easier." So thank you so much and until next time, Be It Till You See It.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

About KevinKevin Miller is currently the global General Manager for Amazon Simple Storage Service (S3), an object storage service that offers industry-leading scalability, data availability, security, and performance. Prior to this role, Kevin has had multiple leadership roles within AWS, including as the General Manager for Amazon S3 Glacier, Director of Engineering for AWS Virtual Private Cloud, and engineering leader for AWS Virtual Private Network and AWS Direct Connect. Kevin was also Technical Advisor to the Senior Vice President for AWS Utility Computing. Kevin is a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University with a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science.Links Referenced: snark.cloud/shirt: https://snark.cloud/shirt aws.amazon.com/s3: https://aws.amazon.com/s3 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at Datadog. Datadog is a SaaS monitoring and security platform that enables full-stack observability for modern infrastructure and applications at every scale. Datadog enables teams to see everything: dashboarding, alerting, application performance monitoring, infrastructure monitoring, UX monitoring, security monitoring, dog logos, and log management, in one tightly integrated platform. With 600-plus out-of-the-box integrations with technologies including all major cloud providers, databases, and web servers, Datadog allows you to aggregate all your data into one platform for seamless correlation, allowing teams to troubleshoot and collaborate together in one place, preventing downtime and enhancing performance and reliability. Get started with a free 14-day trial by visiting datadoghq.com/screaminginthecloud, and get a free t-shirt after installing the agent.Corey: Managing shards. Maintenance windows. Overprovisioning. ElastiCache bills. I know, I know. It's a spooky season and you're already shaking. It's time for caching to be simpler. Momento Serverless Cache lets you forget the backend to focus on good code and great user experiences. With true autoscaling and a pay-per-use pricing model, it makes caching easy. No matter your cloud provider, get going for free at gomomento.co/screaming. That's GO M-O-M-E-N-T-O dot co slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Right now, as I record this, we have just kicked off our annual charity t-shirt fundraiser. This year's shirt showcases S3 as the eighth wonder of the world. And here to either defend or argue the point—we're not quite sure yet—is Kevin Miller, AWS's vice president and general manager for Amazon S3. Kevin, thank you for agreeing to suffer the slings and arrows that are no doubt going to be interpreted, misinterpreted, et cetera, for the next half hour or so.Kevin: Oh, Corey, thanks for having me. And happy to do that, and really flattered for you to be thinking about S3 in this way. So more than happy to chat with you.Corey: It's absolutely one of those services that is foundational to the cloud. It was the first AWS service that was put into general availability, although the beta folks are going to argue back and forth about no, no, that was SQS instead. I feel like now that Mai-Lan handles both SQS and S3 as part of her portfolio, she is now the final arbiter of that. I'm sure that's an argument for a future day. But it's impossible to imagine cloud without S3.Kevin: I definitely think that's true. It's hard to imagine cloud, actually, with many of our foundational services, including SQS, of course, but we are—yes, we were the first generally available service with S3. And pretty happy with our anniversary being Pi Day, 3/14.Corey: I'm also curious, your own personal trajectory has been not necessarily what folks would expect. You were the general manager of Amazon Glacier, and now you're the general manager and vice president of S3. So, I've got to ask, because there are conflicting reports on this depending upon what angle you look at, are Glacier and S3 the same thing?Kevin: Yes, I was the general manager for S3 Glacier prior to coming over to S3 proper, and the answer is no, they are not the same thing. We certainly have a number of technologies where we're able to use those technologies both on S3 and Glacier, but there are certainly a number of things that are very distinct about Glacier and give us that ability to hit the ultra-low price points that we do for Glacier Deep Archive being as low as $1 per terabyte-month. And so, that definitely—there's a lot of actual ingenuity up and down the stack, from hardware to software, everywhere in between, to really achieve that with Glacier. But then there's other spots where S3 and Glacier have very similar needs, and then, of course, today many customers use Glacier through S3 as a storage class in S3, and so that's a great way to do that. So, there's definitely a lot of shared code, but certainly, when you get into it, there's [unintelligible 00:04:59] to both of them.Corey: I ran a number of obnoxiously detailed financial analyses, and they all came away with, unless you have a very specific very nuanced understanding of your data lifecycle and/or it is less than 30 or 60 days depending upon a variety of different things, the default S3 storage class you should be using for virtually anything is Intelligent Tiering. That is my purely economic analysis of it. Do you agree with that? Disagree with that? And again, I understand that all of these storage classes are like your children, and I am inviting you to tell me which one of them is your favorite, but I'm absolutely prepared to do that.Kevin: Well, we love Intelligent Tiering because it is very simple; customers are able to automatically save money using Intelligent Tiering for data that's not being frequently accessed. And actually, since we launched it a few years ago, we've already saved customers more than $250 million using Intelligent Tiering. So, I would say today, it is our default recommendation in almost every case. I think that the cases where we would recommend another storage class as the primary storage class tend to be specific to the use case where—and particularly for use cases where customers really have a good understanding of the access patterns. And we saw some customers do for their certain dataset, they know that it's going to be heavily accessed for a fixed period of time, or this data is actually for archival, it'll never be accessed, or very rarely if ever access, just maybe in an emergency.And those kinds of use cases, I think actually, customers are probably best to choose one of the specific storage classes where they're, sort of, paying that the lower cost from day one. But again, I would say for the vast majority of cases that we see, the data access patterns are unpredictable and customers like the flexibility of being able to very quickly retrieve the data if they decide they need to use it. But in many cases, they'll save a lot of money as the data is not being accessed, and so, Intelligent Tiering is a great choice for those cases.Corey: I would take it a step further and say that even when customers believe that they are going to be doing a deeper analysis and they have a better understanding of their data flow patterns than Intelligent Tiering would, in practice, I see that they rarely do anything about it. It's one of those things where they're like, “Oh, yeah, we're going to set up our own lifecycle policies real soon now,” whereas, just switch it over to Intelligent Tiering and never think about it again. People's time is worth so much more than the infrastructure they're working on in almost every case. It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense unless you have a very intentioned, very urgent reason to go and do that stuff by hand in most cases.Kevin: Yeah, that's right. I think I agree with you, Corey. And certainly, that is the recommendation we lead with customers.Corey: In previous years, our charity t-shirt has focused on other areas of AWS, and one of them was based upon a joke that I've been telling for a while now, which is that the best database in the world is Route 53 and storing TXT records inside of it. I don't know if I ever mentioned this to you or not, but the first iteration of that joke was featuring around S3. The challenge that I had with it is that S3 Select is absolutely a thing where you can query S3 with SQL which I don't see people doing anymore because Athena is the easier, more, shall we say, well-articulated version of all of that. And no, no, that joke doesn't work because it's actually true. You can use S3 as a database. Does that statement fill you with dread? Regret? Am I misunderstanding something? Or are you effectively running a giant subversive database?Kevin: Well, I think that certainly when most customers think about a database, they think about a collection of technology that's applied for given problems, and so I wouldn't count S3 as providing the whole range of functionality that would really make up a database. But I think that certainly a lot of the primitives and S3 Select as a great example of a primitive are available in S3. And we're looking at adding, you know, additional primitives going forward to make it possible to, you know, to build a database around S3. And as you see, other AWS services have done that in many ways. For example, obviously with Amazon Redshift having a lot of capability now to just directly access and use data in S3 and make that a super seamless so that you can then run data warehousing type queries on top of S3 and on top of your other datasets.So, I certainly think it's a great building block. And one other thing I would actually just say that you may not know, Corey, is that one of the things over the last couple of years we've been doing a lot more with S3 is actually working to directly contribute improvements to open-source connector software that uses S3, to make available automatically some of the performance improvements that can be achieved either using both the AWS SDK, and also using things like S3 Select. So, we started with a few of those things with Select; you're going to see more of that coming, most likely. And some of that, again, the idea there as you may not even necessarily know you're using Select, but when we can identify that it will improve performance, we're looking to be able to contribute those kinds of improvements directly—or we are contributing those directly to those open-source packages. So, one thing I would definitely recommend customers and developers do is have a capability of sort of keeping that software up-to-date because although it might seem like those are sort of one-and-done kind of software integrations, there's actually almost continuous improvement now going on, and around things like that capability, and then others we come out with.Corey: What surprised me is just how broadly S3 has been adopted by a wide variety of different clients' software packages out there. Back when I was running production environments in anger, I distinctly remember in one Ubuntu environment, we wound up installing a specific package that was designed to teach apt how to retrieve packages and its updates from S3, which was awesome. I don't see that anymore, just because it seems that it is so easy to do it now, just with the native features that S3 offers, as well as an awful lot of software under the hood has learned to directly recognize S3 as its own thing, and can react accordingly.Kevin: And just do the right thing. Exactly. No, we certainly see a lot of that. So that's, you know—I mean, obviously making that simple for end customers to use and achieve what they're trying to do, that's the whole goal.Corey: It's always odd to me when I'm talking to one of my clients who is looking to understand and optimize their AWS bill to see outliers in either direction when it comes to S3 itself. When they're driving large S3 bills as in a majority of their spend, it's, okay, that is very interesting. Let's dive into that. But almost more interesting to me is when it is effectively not being used at all. When, oh, we're doing everything with EBS volumes or EFS.And again, those are fine services. I don't have any particular problem with them anymore, but the problem I have is that the cloud long ago took what amounts to an economic vote. There's a tax savings for storing data in an object store the way that you—and by extension, most of your competitors—wind up pricing this, versus the idea of on a volume basis where you have to pre-provision things, you don't get any form of durability that extends beyond the availability zone boundary. It just becomes an awful lot of, “Well, you could do it this way. But it gets really expensive really quickly.”It just feels wild to me that there is that level of variance between S3 just sort of raw storage basis, economically, as well as then just the, frankly, ridiculous levels of durability and availability that you offer on top of that. How did you get there? Was the service just mispriced at the beginning? Like oh, we dropped to zero and probably should have put that in there somewhere.Kevin: Well, no, I wouldn't call it mispriced. I think that the S3 came about when we took a—we spent a lot of time looking at the architecture for storage systems, and knowing that we wanted a system that would provide the durability that comes with having three completely independent data centers and the elasticity and capability where, you know, customers don't have to provision the amount of storage they want, they can simply put data and the system keeps growing. And they can also delete data and stop paying for that storage when they're not using it. And so, just all of that investment and sort of looking at that architecture holistically led us down the path to where we are with S3.And we've definitely talked about this. In fact, in Peter's keynote at re:Invent last year, we talked a little bit about how the system is designed under the hood, and one of the thing you realize is that S3 gets a lot of the benefits that we do by just the overall scale. The fact that it is—I think the stat is that at this point more than 10,000 customers have data that's stored on more than a million hard drives in S3. And that's how you get the scale and the capability to do is through massive parallelization. Where customers that are, you know, I would say building more traditional architectures, those are inherently typically much more siloed architectures with a relatively small-scale overall, and it ends up with a lot of resource that's provisioned at small-scale in sort of small chunks with each resource, that you never get to that scale where you can start to take advantage of the some is more than the greater of the parts.And so, I think that's what the recognition was when we started out building S3. And then, of course, we offer that as an API on top of that, where customers can consume whatever they want. That is, I think, where S3, at the scale it operates, is able to do certain things, including on the economics, that are very difficult or even impossible to do at a much smaller scale.Corey: One of the more egregious clown-shoe statements that I hear from time to time has been when people will come to me and say, “We've built a competitor to S3.” And my response is always one of those, “Oh, this should be good.” Because when people say that, they generally tend to be focusing on one or maybe two dimensions that doesn't work for a particular use case as well as it could. “Okay, what was your story around why this should be compared to S3?” “Well, it's an object store. It has full S3 API compatibility.” “Does it really because I have to say, there are times where I'm not entirely convinced that S3 itself has full compatibility with the way that its API has been documented.”And there's an awful lot of magic that goes into this too. “Okay, great. You're running an S3 competitor. Great. How many buildings does it live in?” Like, “Well, we have a problem with the s at the end of that word.” It's, “Okay, great. If it fits on my desk, it is not a viable S3 competitor. If it fits in a single zip code, it is probably not a viable S3 competitor.” Now, can it be an object store? Absolutely. Does it provide a new interface to some existing data someone might have? Sure why not. But I think that, oh, it's S3 compatible, is something that gets tossed around far too lightly by folks who don't really understand what it is that drives S3 and makes it special.Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I would say certainly, there's a number of other implementations of the S3 API, and frankly we're flattered that customers recognize and our competitors and others recognize the simplicity of the API and go about implementing it. But to your point, I think that there's a lot more; it's not just about the API, it's really around everything surrounding S3 from, as you mentioned, the fact that the data in S3 is stored in three independent availability zones, all of which that are separated by kilometers from each other, and the resilience, the automatic failover, and the ability to withstand an unlikely impact to one of those facilities, as well as the scalability, and you know, the fact that we put a lot of time and effort into making sure that the service continues scaling with our customers need. And so, I think there's a lot more that goes into what is S3. And oftentimes just in a straight-up comparison, it's sort of purely based on just the APIs and generally a small set of APIs, in addition to those intangibles around—or not intangibles, but all of the ‘-ilities,' right, the elasticity and the durability, and so forth that I just talked about. In addition to all that also, you know, certainly what we're seeing for customers is as they get into the petabyte and tens of petabytes, hundreds of petabytes scale, their need for the services that we provide to manage that storage, whether it's lifecycle and replication, or things like our batch operations to help update and to maintain all the storage, those become really essential to customers wrapping their arms around it, as well as visibility, things like Storage Lens to understand, what storage do I have? Who's using it? How is it being used?And those are all things that we provide to help customers manage at scale. And certainly, you know, oftentimes when I see claims around S3 compatibility, a lot of those advanced features are nowhere to be seen.Corey: I also want to call out that a few years ago, Mai-Lan got on stage and talked about how, to my recollection, you folks have effectively rebuilt S3 under the hood into I think it was 235 distinct microservices at the time. There will not be a quiz on numbers later, I'm assuming. But what was wild to me about that is having done that for services that are orders of magnitude less complex, it absolutely is like changing the engine on a car without ever slowing down on the highway. Customers didn't know that any of this was happening until she got on stage and announced it. That is wild to me. I would have said before this happened that there was no way that would have been possible except it clearly was. I have to ask, how did you do that in the broad sense?Kevin: Well, it's true. A lot of the underlying infrastructure that's been part of S3, both hardware and software is, you know, you wouldn't—if someone from S3 in 2006 came and looked at the system today, they would probably be very disoriented in terms of understanding what was there because so much of it has changed. To answer your question, the long and short of it is a lot of testing. In fact, a lot of novel testing most recently, particularly with the use of formal logic and what we call automated reasoning. It's also something we've talked a fair bit about in re:Invent.And that is essentially where you prove the correctness of certain algorithms. And we've used that to spot some very interesting, the one-in-a-trillion type cases that S3 scale happens regularly, that you have to be ready for and you have to know how the system reacts, even in all those cases. I mean, I think one of our engineers did some calculations that, you know, the number of potential states for S3, sort of, exceeds the number of atoms in the universe or something so crazy. But yet, using methods like automated reasoning, we can test that state space, we can understand what the system will do, and have a lot of confidence as we begin to swap, you know, pieces of the system.And of course, nothing in S3 scale happens instantly. It's all, you know, I would say that for a typical engineering effort within S3, there's a certain amount of effort, obviously, in making the change or in preparing the new software, writing the new software and testing it, but there's almost an equal amount of time that goes into, okay, and what is the process for migrating from System A to System B, and that happens over a timescale of months, if not years, in some cases. And so, there's just a lot of diligence that goes into not just the new systems, but also the process of, you know, literally, how do I swap that engine on the system. So, you know, it's a lot of really hard working engineers that spent a lot of time working through these details every day.Corey: I still view S3 through the lens of it is one of the easiest ways in the world to wind up building a static web server because you basically stuff the website files into a bucket and then you check a box. So, it feels on some level though, that it is about as accurate as saying that S3 is a database. It can be used or misused or pressed into service in a whole bunch of different use cases. What have you seen from customers that has, I guess, taught you something you didn't expect to learn about your own service?Kevin: Oh, I'd say we have those [laugh]  meetings pretty regularly when customers build their workloads and have unique patterns to it, whether it's the type of data they're retrieving and the access pattern on the data. You know, for example, some customers will make heavy use of our ability to do [ranged gets 00:22:47] on files and [unintelligible 00:22:48] objects. And that's pretty good capability, but that can be one where that's very much dependent on the type of file, right, certain files have structure, as far as you know, a header or footer, and that data is being accessed in a certain order. Oftentimes, those may also be multi-part objects, and so making use of the multi-part features to upload different chunks of a file in parallel. And you know, also certainly when customers get into things like our batch operations capability where they can literally write a Lambda function and do what they want, you know, we've seen some pretty interesting use cases where customers are running large-scale operations across, you know, billions, sometimes tens of billions of objects, and this can be pretty interesting as far as what they're able to do with them.So, for something is sort of what you might—you know, as simple and basics, in some sense, of GET and PUT API, just all the capability around it ends up being pretty interesting as far as how customers apply it and the different workloads they run on it.Corey: So, if you squint hard enough, what I'm hearing you tell me is that I can view all of this as, “Oh, yeah. S3 is also compute.” And it feels like that as a fast-track to getting a question wrong on one of the certification exams. But I have to ask, from your point of view, is S3 storage? And whether it's yes or no, what gets you excited about the space that it's in?Kevin: Yeah well, I would say S3 is not compute, but we have some great compute services that are very well integrated with S3, which excites me as well as we have things like S3 Object Lambda, where we actually handle that integration with Lambda. So, you're writing Lambda functions, we're executing them on the GET path. And so, that's a pretty exciting feature for me. But you know, to sort of take a step back, what excites me is I think that customers around the world, in every industry, are really starting to recognize the value of data and data at large scale. You know, I think that actually many customers in the world have terabytes or more of data that sort of flows through their fingers every day that they don't even realize.And so, as customers realize what data they have, and they can capture and then start to analyze and make ultimately make better business decisions that really help drive their top line or help them reduce costs, improve costs on whether it's manufacturing or, you know, other things that they're doing. That's what really excites me is seeing those customers take the raw capability and then apply it to really just to transform how they not just how their business works, but even how they think about the business. Because in many cases, transformation is not just a technical transformation, it's people and cultural transformation inside these organizations. And that's pretty cool to see as it unfolds.Corey: One of the more interesting things that I've seen customers misunderstand, on some level, has been a number of S3 releases that focus around, “Oh, this is for your data lake.” And I've asked customers about that. “So, what's your data lake strategy?” “Well, we don't have one of those.” “You have, like, eight petabytes and climbing in S3? What do you call that?” It's like, “Oh, yeah, that's just a bunch of buckets we dump things into. Some are logs of our assets and the rest.” It's—Kevin: Right.Corey: Yeah, it feels like no one thinks of themselves as having anything remotely resembling a structured place for all of the data that accumulates at a company.Kevin: Mm-hm.Corey: There is an evolution of people learning that oh, yeah, this is in fact, what it is that we're doing, and this thing that they're talking about does apply to us. But it almost feels like a customer communication challenge, just because, I don't know about you, but with my legacy AWS account, I have dozens of buckets in there that I don't remember what the heck they're for. Fortunately, you folks don't charge by the bucket, so I can smile, nod, remain blissfully ignorant, but it does make me wonder from time to time.Kevin: Yeah, no, I think that what you hear there is actually pretty consistent with what the reality is for a lot of customers, which is in distributed organizations, I think that's bound to happen, you have different teams that are working to solve problems, and they are collecting data to analyze, they're creating result datasets and they're storing those datasets. And then, of course, priorities can shift, and you know, and there's not necessarily the day-to-day management around data that we might think would be expected. I feel [we 00:26:56] sort of drew an architecture on a whiteboard. And so, I think that's the reality we are in. And we will be in, largely forever.I mean, I think that at a smaller-scale, that's been happening for years. So, I think that, one, I think that there's a lot of capability just being in the cloud. At the very least, you can now start to wrap your arms around it, right, where used to be that it wasn't even possible to understand what all that data was because there's no way to centrally inventory it well. In AWS with S3, with inventory reports, you can get a list of all your storage and we are going to continue to add capability to help customers get their arms around what they have, first off; understand how it's being used—that's where things like Storage Lens really play a big role in understanding exactly what data is being accessed and not. We're definitely listening to customers carefully around this, and I think when you think about broader data management story, I think that's a place that we're spending a lot of time thinking right now about how do we help customers get their arms around it, make sure that they know what's the categorization of certain data, do I have some PII lurking here that I need to be very mindful of?And then how do I get to a world where I'm—you know, I won't say that it's ever going to look like the perfect whiteboard picture you might draw on the wall. I don't think that's really ever achievable, but I think certainly getting to a point where customers have a real solid understanding of what data they have and that the right controls are in place around all that data, yeah, I think that's directionally where I see us heading.Corey: As you look around how far the service has come, it feels like, on some level, that there were some, I guess, I don't want to say missteps, but things that you learned as you went along. Like, back when the service was in beta, for example, there was no per-request charge. To my understanding that was changed, in part because people were trying to use it as a file system, and wow, that suddenly caused a tremendous amount of load on some of the underlying systems. You originally launched with a BitTorrent endpoint as an option so that people could download through peer-to-peer approaches for large datasets and turned out that wasn't really the way the internet evolved, either. And I'm curious, if you were to have to somehow build this off from scratch, are there any other significant changes you would make in how the service was presented to customers in how people talked about it in the early days? Effectively given a mulligan, what would you do differently?Kevin: Well, I don't know, Corey, I mean, just given where it's grown to in macro terms, you know, I definitely would be worried taking a mulligan, you know, that I [laugh] would change the sort of the overarching trajectory. Certainly, I think there's a few features here and there where, for whatever reason, it was exciting at the time and really spoke to what customers at the time were thinking, but over time, you know, sort of quickly those needs move to something a little bit different. And, you know, like you said things like the BitTorrent support is one where, at some level, it seems like a great technical architecture for the internet, but certainly not something that we've seen dominate in the way things are done. Instead, you know, we've largely kind of have a world where there's a lot of caching layers, but it still ends up being largely client-server kind of connections. So, I don't think I would do a—I certainly wouldn't do a mulligan on any of the major functionality, and I think, you know, there's a few things in the details where obviously, we've learned what really works in the end. I think we learned that we wanted bucket names to really strictly conform to rules for DNS encoding. So, that was the change that was made at some point. And we would tweak that, but no major changes, certainly.Corey: One subject of some debate while we were designing this year's charity t-shirt—which, incidentally, if you're listening to this, you can pick up for yourself at snark.cloud/shirt—was the is S3 itself dependent upon S3? Because we know that every other service out there is as well, but it is interesting to come up with an idea of, “Oh, yeah. We're going to launch a whole new isolated region of S3 without S3 to lean on.” That feels like it's an almost impossible bootstrapping problem.Kevin: Well, S3 is not dependent on S3 to come up, and it's certainly a critical dependency tree that we look at and we track and make sure that we'd like to have an acyclic graph as we look at dependencies.Corey: That is such a sophisticated way to say what I learned the hard way when I was significantly younger and working in production environments: don't put the DNS servers needed to boot the hypervisor into VMs that require a working hypervisor. It's one of those oh, yeah, in hindsight, that makes perfect sense, but you learn it right after that knowledge really would have been useful.Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the terms we use for that, as well as is the idea of static stability, or that's one of the techniques that can really help with isolating a dependency is what we call static stability. We actually have an article about that in the Amazon Builder Library, which there's actually a bunch of really good articles in there from very experienced operations-focused engineers in AWS. So, static stability is one of those key techniques, but other techniques—I mean, just pure minimization of dependencies is one. And so, we were very, very thoughtful about that, particularly for that core layer.I mean, you know, when you talk about S3 with 200-plus microservices, or 235-plus microservices, I would say not all of those services are critical for every single request. Certainly, a small subset of those are required for every request, and then other services actually help manage and scale the kind of that inner core of services. And so, we look at dependencies on a service by service basis to really make sure that inner core is as minimized as possible. And then the outer layers can start to take some dependencies once you have that basic functionality up.Corey: I really want to thank you for being as generous with your time as you have been. If people want to learn more about you and about S3 itself, where should they go—after buying a t-shirt, of course.Kevin: Well, certainly buy the t-shirt. First, I love the t-shirts and the charity that you work with to do that. Obviously, for S3, it's aws.amazon.com/s3. And you can actually learn more about me. I have some YouTube videos, so you can search for me on YouTube and kind of get a sense of myself.Corey: We will put links to that into the show notes, of course. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah. Glad to spend some time. Thanks for the questions, Corey.Corey: Kevin Miller, vice president and general manager for Amazon S3. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, ignorant comment talking about how your S3 compatible service is going to blow everyone's socks off when it fails.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

In this special episode of The A to Z English Podcast, we talk with Jonathan from Costa Rica, a dedicated English student and an active member of our Whatsapp group. (Link here: https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7)Website Link: https://atozenglishpodcast.com/?p=1739It's a great conversation, so you won't want to miss it!Share your thoughts about today's interview in our Whatsapp group or tell us if you think you have something interesting to talk about. Perhaps you could be our next guest on the podcast!If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Full Transcript: Jonathan from Costa RicaKevin: Welcome to an A to Z English listener interview. Today we're talking with Jonathan Gutierrez who is in Costa Rica and is one of our listeners. And he's going to tell us today about his English learning experience using A to Z English and all of the other sources that he did. So Jonathan, nice to see you. it's night time there right?Jonathan: Okay, it's nice to see you guys. So um thank you for having me here.Kevin: Oh you're welcome. it's great to have you on the show. Jack: Yeah thanks for coming and I appreciate it. Kevin: Yeah it's already evening there. Did you have your dinner tonight?Jonathan: Uh not yet. I just arrived at home a few minutes ago.Kevin: Yeah?Jonathan: I was working today, so I just arrived at home maybe 10 or 15 minutes ago. But it's okay.Kevin: Well thank you for finding time to join us then for us it's Monday daytime of course time zones are funny, so Jonathan you're in Costa Rica.I've never been to Costa Rica though I have had a couple of friends that went there. Actually one of my good friends from university, he and his uh girlfriend at the time, now wife, they went to Costa Rica many years ago, maybe almost 20 years ago and they were teaching English for six months or a year, so I know English education is quite big in Costa Rica. How, where or when did you first start learning English? Was it in schools or did you have a tutor or just the internet or where did you start? Jonathan: Yeah I started when I in high school. Okay so I'm learning a few things in high school. Maybe I don't uh that I feel for example um I love the idiom or stuff like that. Sure maybe a couple years ago that I started to return again to learning English and I joined what's the room with Robin Shaw? So I started my new challenge. I changed my mind because I want um to get a bilingual job and I think I start to practice a little bit more. I forgot all the rules and English grammars. I love vocabulary so it was a little bit insane you know. Maybe not because I forgot so a lot of things um so it was something new for me. Let's start again. They start with uh maybe kids stuff um and it was pretty good. Robin helped me a lot. Kevin: I'm curious. if you said you started again because you forgot everything, I actually I know Costa Rica is a Spanish-speaking country and I used to speak a little bit of Spanish. I studied Spanish in university. But like you I stopped using it and I totally forgot everything once you started to study again. Was it easier than the first time? Did you start to remember things?Jonathan: Yeah it's quite something funny because when I'm trying to learn again um I remember oh I remember this but how can we use everything. So I forgot for example um singular verbs, plural, past tense and stuff like that. Yeah so it started again. I practiced a lot um every day and yeah I found a bunch of friends and I tried to do my best every day to learn English and my one of my goals was get bilingual because I am native speaker Spanish speaker all right good yeah. it was a big challenge you know. it was pretty awesome. I was excited to learn again English, so I decided to start again and practice and practice every day. Jack: That's great! Yeah do you use English in your job right now? Jonathan: Yes I've been working in a call center for around five months oh nice and is for um I am customer service agent for us company so it's something new for me and I'm taking calls every day for…Jack: So are the people that calling you are they they're Americans then?Jonathan: Yes.Kevin: And I know speaking another language over the phone can sometimes be more difficult than speaking together with a person because you can't see them. You don't know what their facial expressions or what their body is doing. What things have been the hardest for you doing a phone job where you're only listening to people speaking English and Americans have many different styles of English. Some are very fast. Some are very slow. What was what's the hardest thing for you in in your job?Jonathan: All right um I guess that's the listening stuff because when the customer speaks.Kevin: They start to speak and start to speak uh faster right?Jonathan: Faster and you need to get all the information in a few seconds and trying to avoid. Kevin: Do you mean trying umJonathan: Yeah trying I need to improve a lot my listening skills to avoid this kind of situation because it's a customer service job I mean right we need to focus on listening and try to get the best message with the customer and assist the customer and sometimes we can hear um maybe i'll set customers and we need to okay slow down, take it easy and assist the customer.Kevin: Well that sounds like our podcast would be helpful for listening skills. Then so I'm hopeful that we are helping you. There that's great yeah what was the…Jack: Uh could you could you give us an example of maybe like a very challenging phone call or a uh experience that you've had at the call center? Is there one memorable experience? Jonathan: Yeah we got a lot of accents from us so maybe for example when I try to speak uh when a customer uh he got access from example for Texas or um it's so hard to understand but I try to do my best and when decide to speak it faster and faster, it's hard to understand. But I always do my best every day.Jack: Yeah so like a southern Texas accent would be hard to understand but like in eastern in the east uh people speak quite quickly in New York and yeah Massachusetts in that area yeah people speak very fast, very quickly. Jonathan: You got it uh by the way um well our customers are from the east coast uh Massachusetts, Boston, New York and New Jersey yeah and Philadelphia um and I find that listening also can sometimes be more difficult than speaking because there's so many ways to say the same thing and one person says it this way, another person says it a different way and you know one way to say it and so you're correct you know how to do it but they use a different or a different way and so it can be very confusing. It's like oh I know what that means I know what you're saying but I don't know that way of saying it. Yeah all this comes with more and more practice. Kevin: Yeah exactly in the second part is the most important trying to explain the situation with the customer because it's a technical vocabulary so you need to explain some things from to someone that never uses uh technical vocabulary. That's really interesting. You need me to focus uh in something easy right to say to another person that's really interesting because then you are listening to an american a native speaker and you're speaking back to them and you're using words that they don't know so you know more English in some ways than they do. It's just that technical language. What a unique experience to know more English than a native speaker but having to change it for them to understand.Jonathan: Yeah it's a challenge because every day you need to focus on trying to explain yourself something easy about technical vocabulary so maybe it's easy, maybe sometimes it's uh difficult because you need to guess what the customer needs and sometimes it's hard because the customer is trying to explain something and you need to all right. Did you need uh this? You need this all right. I got it and this is the result.Jack: So uh you so you need to practice um your English and you use uh Shaw English and you listen to the A to Z English Podcast but um at your work do you also speak English to your co-workers, your colleagues. Do you practice even though you can both of you speak Spanish as a first language? Do you ever communicate in English with your colleagues just for practice?Jonathan: Yes a few things we need to uh speak English with another uh co-workers or maybe when you need to target another department, it's always speaking English and we always needs to be focused in speaking English together and it's more easy to end of the day for the end of the day. Yeah so when you go to work you basically switch your mind to English. You just say when I'm at work I'm using English and then when I get home I use Spanish.Jack: Is that right?Jonathan: Yeah but it's funny because for me I try to get involved um always in English environment so when I arrive at home I turn on my tv and find um series on Netflix and in English and or are you going to when i'm going to work i'm going to listen to music or listen to your podcast on my cell phone so I trying to always um thinking English, do something in English.Kevin: Cool! That's awesome! Yeah that's more and more practice. So of all of those things that you do the last question I like to ask people that we talk to is if you could give a tip to other listeners, what one thing do you think would be the most useful to practice English? Or what do you do that you think is the most useful? Jonathan: All right for me um I guess um you need to practice every day. It's not my magical poison you know or something like that but the first thing you need to change your mind, uh you need to start to focus in English uh think in English. Uh do exercise practice speak with friends uh maybe international friends is the best way because you never need to speak in another language, just holding in English because if I have a friend here, I can speak Spanish. But for example, if I got a friend on in Malaysia and another person doesn't know anything about the Spanish so you need to focus almost in English.Jack: That's a nice tip! Kevin: Nice! Well Malaysia is good. We talked to Mei Fong last week, so maybe if you talk to her, then you can practice as well. Yeah but that's a great tip getting your mind around English that's yeah a great thing. Just practice, practice, practice. Jonathan: Yeah a lot of practice and uh one thing, it's helped me a lot, is this shadowing technique.Kevin: Uh shadowing uh yeah watching videos on YouTube and practice is a bit aloud and yeah if you can't practice with a friend, you can still do something alone. Just listen and repeat and listen, repeat it does help. It helps you sound more natural in the language that's really fantastic.Kevin: You sound like you work really hard at your English and we're talking to you here, so it's having good results. Jack: Good job! Absolutely. Yeah thanks a lot Jonathan. We really appreciate it.Kevin: Yeah Jonathan. Thanks for sharing your story with us. It's very cool and now you've got to get some dinner. It's late there. You must be very hungry. Jonathan: Yeah a little bit. Kevin: Nice well thank you for coming and talking to us.Jonathan: Thanks to you guys. I really appreciate it. Jack: It's our pleasure. Kevin: Yyeah have a great evening.Jonathan: Same to you and take care and I hope I'll see you soon again. Kevin: All right thank you.Jack: Thanks Jonathan bye bye. Jonathan: See ya. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Kevin and Jack talk about going to camp as a kid. They share some stories and fun memories of things they did there. Share your answers to the discussion questions in our WhatsApp group chat! https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7Website link: https://atozenglishpodcast.com/did-you-go-to-camp/With listener mail from episode 6: https://atozenglishpodcast.com/do-you-have-any-pets/If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters:https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Key Words: Write the definitions of the key words. Dribble:Scrimmage:Camp Counsellor:Certificate:Skull:Discussion Questions:Did you go to summer camp when you were young?What did you do at camp?Describe your favorite activity at camp.Describe your least favorite activity at camp?Full Transcript: Kevin: Welcome to an A to Z English quick chat we're gonna surprise each other with a topic for the day and then see where the conversation goes. Check our website for a study guide with vocabulary notes, discussion questions and more as well as links to our Whatsapp, Facebook pages and other social media where you can join in the conversation. Our topic for today, Jack, I just yesterday I, I finished teaching a kids camp of an English kids camp and it got me thinking about camps that I did when I was a kid and you must have done some camps in school or in summer vacation or winter vacation.Jack: I did a lot of uh, I did summer camps when I was a kid, especially in elementary school. Yeah like a week or two weeks, something like that.Kevin: Oh two weeks. That's quite, that's quite a long one. I don't remember well I guess it depends on the camp. I can think of two that I did when I was young. One was a field trip camp. My school went to an island in California and that was probably pretty short, maybe three nights, three or four nights, yeah that's a pretty short one.Jack: Exactly.Kevin: Yeah, but then I did another. I did a basketball camp when I was in elementary school and that was probably longer. That was probably two or three weeks but that was not sleeping at the camp, you know, I'd go from my home to the school and play basketball and go home every day.Jack: Yeah, I did the same thing in elementary school and middle school. We had a uh, our high school basketball coach would run in a summer basketball camp, but yeah it was only…Kevin: You said you were a basketball player.Jack: Yeah, I played basketball in high school and in college, so um yeah, we would uh, we'd go learn the techniques and then play and then go home, eat dinner, sleep, and then go back again the next day. Basketball all day every day, yeah at that time, basketball all day every day was heaven for me you know. That's all we wanted to do. I mean, we, that's what we did when we couldn't get into the gym. We went to the park and we played basketball. I mean that's all we, that's all we wanted to do.Kevin: Yeah, and how, what did the coaches do to keep it fun for the kids all day. It's not just play basketball, it's not just go go go go go. Like they organized things. I'm sure they you have to organize things.Jack: It's more difficult, the younger, so for the younger kids, um, I think it's more, they can't do as much, so they, it's a lot of like technique and just dribble down, go between the cones, you know just zig zag and then come back and pass the ball to your friend and then that person runs a drill and they zig zag through the cones and then they come back and so it's just a lot of that kind of stuff, very simple games. But when we got older, um, the, all we wanted to do was to uh, I'll use a maybe a new word here for our listeners is scrimmage and scrimmage is a word that means to play a game. But it's not an official game. It's just a practice game so that's all we wanted to do was basically we do all the technique and the practice but what we really want to do is play basketball and play yeah yeah and so that would always come at the end of the day, so in the beginning, you do the annoying hard work stuff and then later as a reward, then you then you get to play, scrimmage, you get to or you get to scrimmage. You get to play games, okay yeah, with each other so that makes sense.Kevin: I mean the camp that I just did was an English camp of course and so they did the kind of similar things. We did the boring class in the morning for the kids you know. Let's learn English and let's listen to the story and blah blah blah but then the afternoon was the fun stuff with the teachers. It was go play a sport or make some pizzas or something you do. Some games, still English, for the kids to practice it's an English camp, but you know, do the boring stuff in the morning and have the fun stuff in in the afternoon before dinner. Did you ever go to any just like fun camps?Jack: I went to a couple summer camps that were just all about fun activities. There was no English. There was no basketball, um, you know. We could play basketball if we wanted to, but they weren't teaching us how to play basketball, and I remember going to one of those camps and that was really fun because we were yeah…Kevin: I want you to tell me a story from one because I can think of one like I said I went to an island in in California with my school when I was it was maybe fifth or sixth grade so like upper elementary school, I don't remember. This was a long time ago of course, but we went to this island with the class and that was just yeah, just a fun camp, and I remember, what do I remember, it was so long ago…I remember we went kayaking which was really cool because we were on an island, and then I remember also doing like a night hike like walking with all of your friends in the night time through the forest and that was really funny because it was kind of scary, and it was very dark, like some people had flashlights. But not everyone, and so I remember we were walking and we would hold hands of the person in front and behind you so that we wouldn't get lost of course because losing a kid in the forest in the dark is bad. Yeah, but we would um, when you're walking, you would have to be careful because there's many things in the forest to fall over, to trip over, yeah and so we would spend…we would send like a message back in the line saying like step up or step down or go right or things to tell the person behind you. Like what's about to happen, but because I was you know a little troublemaker kid sometimes I would just tell the person behind me, step up or step down, even though there was nothing, there's no rock or anything, and so they would almost fall over and then I would laugh and keep walking so that was their teamwork. Uh it was a teamwork exercise, but yeah.Jack You weren't being a very good teammate huh?Kevin: I was breaking the team. Um where did you go? What was your fun camp?Jack: My fun camp was called uh camp Shamineau, and there's a good Native American name because it's named after a lake, yeah.Kevin: Where was this?Jack: Um this is in northern Minnesota, so lots of forests and as I mentioned in one of our earlier podcasts uh Minnesota is famous for its number of lakes. It's called ‘the land of 10000 lakes' right? There's a lot up there. There are so many lakes, and there's a lot of camps uh that are on you know kind of built on lakes so that you can go, yeah, you could go swimming, and I remember uh there was a there was a uh a challenge. It's called the I swam sham challenge and so okay uh the um… what do you… I'm blanking on the word right now, counselors, the camp counselors, camp counselors yeah.Kevin: Like, high school kids right?Jack: Yeah like high school kids or college kids and we were in elementary school and they would uh, they'd take you on one side of the lake and then they're in a boat and then you swim across the lake and if you make it all the way across the lake without getting into the boat or asking for help or anything, then you get a certificate that says I swam sham and uh so a few of us that were…Kevin: Did you make it?Jack: I made it absolutely. Yes, I was, I'm a strong swimmer. Uh not a, I'm not a particularly fast swimmer, but I very, I'm very familiar with the water, so and comfortable in the water, so for me it was you know, it was pretty easy, but I just remember feeling you know quite proud to have swam or swum across a lake that was pretty cool. So yeah, definitely, and it's something that especially when not all the kids can do it, when some of the kids are going up into the boat and you're like I did it, yeah, they managed to finish. They didn't make it or they're too afraid to try or something, so right, yeah it was kind of a point. It's a good feeling.Kevin: Yeah? Nice. That's very cool. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. These kids camps are really fun. Swimming across lakes actually reminds me a little bit off topic, one day, I really want to swim across the Han River here in Seoul.Jack: Oh really? Is that something that you can do?Kevin: There's actually, there actually, are people who've done it. I've looked it up before, but you have to choose like when to go because before the rainy season, before it gets crazy, yeah, and under some people say things like that quite dirty and stuff, so, but I think that would be really fun because I love being in the water as well yeahJack: And you're a strong swimmer. That's something that you do as a hobby.Kevin: Yeah, swimming is my exercise, so that's what I would love to get into.Jack: Yeah, um, there's you know, another uh aspect of that camp that I remember was uh the night games.Kevin: Like you did a night hike?Jack: We would play a game called capture the flag. You have two teams and one team has a flag and the other team has a flag and they hide it somewhere in the forest or on the campgrounds and then at night, you have to go and catch the other team's flag. And I remember uh how exciting and scary and fun that was because it kind of kind of feels like you're part of a battle or in kind of a war zone or something like that. So it's a very fun.Kevin: Uh night time that would be really cool to do. Yeah I remember one of our things, I don't remember how it works, but with our night hike, what we did, the reason we did it so dark was because then at the end, we turned off our lights. And you know, um, lifesavers candy? Lkke it's a little like just chewable candy. It's like shaped like a circle. Something that the camp counselors gave us was like mint flavored candies, mint flavored lifesavers and there was something in the mint flavored lifesavers that when you would bite into it, crunch down into it, if your mouth was open it would actually flash like a light.Jack: Yeah?Kevin: And I don't remember how but I just remember this this this activity when I was a kid because all of us, all of our friends got in a big circle and they gave us each a candy and we would all just crunch down on this candy and all of our mouths were just going likeJack: So there's some kind of light or fluorescence like coming?Kevin: There's something in that candy at least there was maybe it was some crazy chemical that was okay in the 1990s and they took it out now but there was there was something in the candy that that made it light up and that was the really exciting part of the trip.Jack: Wow that's a fascinating…I did not expect you to tell that story.Kevin: So I yeah it's something I just remembered, candy, that just remembered.Jack: Yeah that's fascinating.Kevin: Other things those camps are always really fun because you do like science experiments or random things. Another thing actually I that I just remembered we opened up um what are they called owl drop not just owl droppings but like there's a specific word for it where when an owl you know would like eat a mouse or whatever and then they poop it out and it falls to the ground. It's not like normal bird poo where it's just you know like white splattering on your shirt. It's like a small, like it looks like a small piece of dirt but then you can open it up with some tools and inside it there's like a mouse skull and some other bones and things like that so you can see what the owl ate because when owls eat mice, they just basically gulp it whole down and then they digest itJack: But they can't digest the bones.Kevin: So right so then the bones just getting pooped out.Jack: Wow that's yeah those are the things that I really enjoyed about uh you know being in elementary school and going to camps and doing science experiments and you know just uh and playing those games. I don't think I as an adult I don't think I've ever had as much fun and joy as I'd had when I was just a kid you know, and that's what camps do I think is that they just they really bring a lot of joy and happiness to children and I think it's something that you have to that you can you can't really hold on to as you get older and…Kevin: So yeah, and there's definitely a lot of memories that the kids make, especially if it's one where you're staying there for two, three, four nights or longer. And I think you know like a good place to wrap up for here when I was just finishing these camps with these kids. At the last day of camp, some of the kids are really emotional. I got kind of emotional. Like you've been spending you know a week just with these same group of kids all day and then these kids also are with me, the teacher, but more so with our camp counselors. And some of the kids were really sad to go home they were like I'm gonna miss you teacher and especially to those who like, I'm the teacher you know, so I'm happy, I'm having fun of course but the counselors, they're like teacher slash friend and so some of the kids were really sad to go home because they really made strong memories and some good friends and hopefully, they had a lot of fun at our camp and hopefully they'll come back.Jack: Yeah, when I went to camp Shamineau, I just, I'll this would be my last statement here, but I cried twice: I cried the first day because I was going to miss my parents and I was feeling homesick, and I cried on the last day of camp because I didn't want to leave. I didn't want to…Kevin: Yeah, that's so, that sounds like a pretty perfect camp experience where you're nervous to go but then you have so much fun that you don't want to leave, that you just want to stay there to last forever. Yeah, nice that's, great yeah, camps are fun and I would love to hear what kind of camps our listeners are doing out there in other parts of the world, you know, what are they learning? What are they doing? What kind of activities do you do in camps or what memories do you have?Jack: Yeah, tell us about those.Kevin: for sure, yeah, it's a fun a fun thing to relive that that happy part of your life when you were a kid or it was just all fun and games. But nice! So, for today though to wrap up I know we've got some listener mail from a couple of our previous episodes so what have, we got for today, Jack, yeah so we have uh some discussion question answers from Anna Maria and Anna Maria is from Colombia and this one was about pets. And the question was, “Do you have a pet?” And Anna Maria says yes. She has a dog named Tomate which, help me out Kevin, is that uh tomato and…Kevin: I think that is. I think that is tomato.Jack: Yeah, okay, so her dog is Tomato.Kevin: That is a cute name for a dog.Jack: I agree. And the second question was, “Is uh is your dog a good watchdog?” And a watchdog is like a protector, and she says uh yes, he barks a lot when a stranger is close to my house and he's always alert with strangers, so she actually feels safer uh having Tomate you know in her life in uh in her apartment or in her house so I think that's uh that's pretty cool. So, we'll give a shout out to uh Anna Maria and Tomate.Kevin: Nice, and the pets episode, that was our Quick Chat number six for anyone else who wants to go back and check that one out, so yeah, pets are pets are great. Tomate I love I love the name yeah.Jack: I love different dog and pets. It's fun to hear the different names that people give their dogs around, especially in other parts of the world. It's really interesting.Kevin: Yeah yeah yeah, definitely some names here in Korea are like normal people names and some names are just totally random.Jack: If you name your dog Frank, uh it's not, it doesn't really uh you know doesn't capture that.Kevin: I don't know any Frank dogs. That's a bit funny, but anyway, that was a great one, so thanks Anna Maria and everybody, well thanks for tuning in. Please remember to leave us a review if you can on Apple Podcasts and a five-star rating. That would be, that would be super helpful and also you can check our Whatsapp group. It's linked on the webpage or down in the show notes where you can come and join us in the conversation, so we'll talk to you there have a good one all right.Jack: Bye bye!Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this special episode of The A to Z English Podcast, we talk with May, a dedicated English student and an active member of our Whatsapp group. (Link here: https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7)It's a great conversation, so you won't want to miss it!https://atozenglishpodcast.com/interview-with-may-fong/If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Listener Interview 001: May from MalaysiaFull TranscriptKevin: Hi everybody! Welcome to A to Z English. Today Jack and I are trying something new. We're gonna be starting to interview our listeners and we have our first listener today who is May Fong from Malaysia actually and May hi.May: Good evening!Jack: Hi!May: Good evening!Jack: Thank you for joining us. This is very cool.Kevin: Yes, thank you.May: Thank you for inviting me too!Jack: It's our pleasure yeah well yeah yeah.Kevin: I agree and because we are on an English podcast of course I'd like to know well how long have you been studying English for?May: Um yeah, obviously I'm learning English from school during my school time. That means from primary until secondary school but then um after study I have honestly I've forgotten most of my English like grammar tenses and all that okay and then I started to reinforce all my English language skills since 2020.Kevin: Oh, so just a couple years?May: Yeah. Where at that time I got a study grant from Malaysia okay it's it is basically a three-month English course so yeah I studied it and with one um e-learning company so okay yeahKevin: That's great and it's a Malaysian company?May: It is not a Malaysian company actually, it's um I can call it national company. Jack: So how long was the gap where you stopped studying English and then you started again? Was it like five years or longer than that?May: Honestly, I had not been studying English since the day I left school. I should say that so yeah I'm speaking English on a daily basis but then I just I just speak. I don't know whether what or whatever I speak is correct or not and why do we why do I say things in such a way, so yeah, I just speak English but uh I understand.Jack: So after school you continued to use English? You spoke English but you weren't studying formally until 2020? You started studying again more formally?May: Okay yeah for me I study again.Kevin: Okay and so you if you started studying a couple years ago again and first you started studying with that program right with that three-month course which is great, but now you listen to podcasts and thank you for listening to our podcast of course but what other, how do you self-study? What do you do to = help you improve?May: Okay. I will watch videos on YouTube okay basically where the moment I finished that the online class so I did I did not stop there so uh every day I will go to YouTube and then I will search for whatever video that I think interesting and important for me to learn.Kevin: Yeah and are these videos specifically English videos like English grammar pronunciation or is it just some other random video that you're interested in but it's in English?May: Um I started learning grammar learning then from there and then I search for also search for listening daily conversation vocabulary lessons and anything any I mean almost anything just anything that English language.Kevin: Sure okay and I'm curious to ask, you said you watch a lot of YouTube videos but something that you have told us is that you are visually impaired right? It's hard for you to see the screen and you have a voice screen reader reading to you which is very cool. So what do you find useful about YouTube? You're not really watching the videos, right? You're just listening to them.May: Okay on YouTube all the videos okay I can see all the video most of the video come with audio so I will just listen to the audio and then whenever there is a word that I don't understand I will read this subtitle. From there I can pick up the words. Then I will go and look into the dictionary. That's how I learn.Jack: Oh wow, so you as you watch the videos, everything that you understand you keep running the video but if you find a word that you that you're not familiar with you will look it up and find the definition and then go back to the video and then finish the video?May: Yes correct. I will pause the video and then I will check it out on the dictionary. I'll check it out in the dictionary then that's how I live.Jack: That's great! A great way to do it is checking the dictionary for anyone yeah.Kevin: Did you learn any interesting words today?May: Um not today.Kevin: That's okay, um but soon.May: Usually I will do my, I'll start learning at night time like um after 8 00 pm okay 8 pm so I'll go on YouTube and see what is interesting.Jack: And how many hours do you spend every day on learning English and watching videos or podcasts?May: Um I have no specific hours of day. About one or two hours.Kevin:  Nice! Wow, that's great. One or two hours every day is very good. I need to do more Korean every day, I do maybe two minutes, very small. That's funny, um, so May you're very busy on our Whatsapp group. How and and that's great we we love to encourage our listeners to participate I in the website. It's good to see.Jack: Yeah it's great to see and um how as uh um as a person who is visually impaired, how do you how do you do that? How do you participate do you um do you record your voice usually or do you type? I mean how does what does the what is the technology that you use to interact on our Whatsapp group?May: Okay there's a software. Basically, it's a screen reader okay um different type of software like on my laptop the software I use is called NVDA basically this this software will read whatever things appear on the screen okay. Let's say when I'm browsing a website so when I move the cursor around the software read for me okay what is currently showing on the screen whether it's a link it's a heading it's a there's some chat box of um something that I can click on to get more details things.Kevin: So, you move the cursor around the screen and it gives you a kind of uh um of mental a mental picture mental like information so you can kind of get an idea of what is on the screen well what about images. Does it also describe images as well?May: Okay it is depends on the website and the apps created by the provider. KSM created it in a very friendly way of redline user where they labels all the images with proper words so for that kind of a picture. Yes the system or the screen reader will describe but sometimes they are also challenges for me as a blind user where the I mean the provider did not label all the images graphic so that is the challenge for me.Kevin: Yeah may that's something that I've seen because for our website our A to Z English podcast website I'm the person who makes the website and so I've seen when I put up a picture or when I put something up it often tells me make a good description for blind people and so I have to remember so if if my website is not good enough yet please tell me and I will go add better descriptions but we don't have too many pictures yet.May: It is good if you can consider this people with disability. I mean the need of people with disabilities so that you know yes can also read whatever on your website.Kevin: So it is actually good. Yeah I will I will keep that in mind for people like you so thank you for the reminder.Jack: Yeah I noticed that you also like to post memes as well and uh is that is that a challenge to because uh it seems like you have you're really good at uh posting memes as well is that because the picture description is really good or okay?May: For the picture that I posted, I mean, they're all the pictures that I post every morning. I got it from a Facebook page okay yeah I mean on Facebook what I most of the picture and it can be I mean the screen reader can describe it properly so that's how I got it and I post it in the group. I share it in the group.Jack: So you search on Facebook and you find something that's funny and and interesting and then you put it into the Whatsapp group.May: Yeah I shared it if there was a group and also some of my friends like morning greetings.Kevin: That's great and why do you enjoy using our English Whatsapp group? How is that helpful for you?May: Every day okay actually I was learning English with Robin's channel. like Shaw English Daily English homework.Kevin: Yeah he's great.May: That's all very good. So from there I was you guys who always joined the what's up good job there was some bro so I I clicked the link to join the group and that's how I come into the group yeahJack: How do you uh how do you listen to the podcast? Do you listen to it on your smartphone or do you listen to it on the computer? I'm just curious. What's your favorite way to listen to a podcast?May: It can be done in both way actually but most of the time I'll listen at home. That means I will use my laptop to listen.Kevin: Uh so are you listening from our webpage?May: Yes from your webpage.Kevin: Oh that's great! That means I need to make the webpage better if you're using your own page.Jack: Blame Kevin blame Kevin.Kevin: Yes that's my um that's for me you you said that you have this special software that helps you describe the screen.Jack: And how like how long have like what was the process I I'm guess I'm wondering like when did you how long have you been visually impaired is this something that was from the time you were born or did it happen later in life? Did you lose your sight later?May: I was blind since I was born so that means when I was kid I started to learn I mean at that time there is no computer no internet right I think so we will learn for blind people. We will learn some uh braille. Have you heard about it?Kevin: Yes of course.May: Braille is a method for to assist blind people to read. It's a traditional way actually. It's a traditional way and actually it's um we are still using it until it until now the only thing is nowadays we have computer so we have um screen readers so most of the time we are using them.Kevin: Yeah and I know Jack and I talked in an episode not too long ago about technology and it's so amazing because when I was a kid the technology would be impossible for blind people to use the internet and now you browse the internet just as well as anyone else.Jack: You're a pro internet user and meme sharer and on social networks. I'm sure you're much better than I am at browsing the internet. I'm not very good with computers to be honest.Kevin: Yeah we're we're old people.May: Yeah okay they're actually this can do most of the things for blind like the light useronly sometimes there are challenges but of course overall it helps.Jack: Yeah that's what fantastic to hear. Yeah what is the what's maybe the biggest challenge um when using a screen reader? It's something that you if you if you could design your own software is there something you would change to improve it?May: The biggest challenge I could say will be when the provider created the website um as I mentioned earlier not friendly to blind users like they didn't label the image and the graphic and then one more thing is um they I mean uh for your information blind user doesn't use a mouse when navigate while navigating a computer all right so yeah so we use only keyboard only keyboard that means we have to remember most of the keyboard commands.Kevin: So you do know all of the pro commands, at least the main keyboard command the important ones?May: Right of course you'll need oh yeah when something is created on they created something where we can only click by the mouse or move around by the mouse that is the biggest challenge sureKevin: Interesting right yeah well May this is all very interesting to hear. It's so very cool that you're able even without being able to see the internet you're able to watch YouTube's from Robin's channel and you're able to listen to our podcast. That's so fantastic what the internet does for you today. I have one final question for you if because again we're an English learning podcast if you could give everyone a tip, what would you tell someone who wants to learn English how can they how can they learn what do you think was helpful?May: Um well there's a lot there's a there are a lot of free um learning channel learning tips learning exercises learning lessons on the internet so you just have to browse through it that's all you can learn okay actually yeah like The A to Z English Podcast.Kevin: Yep of course. Yeah that's great, so May, thank you very much for joining and for everyone else out there who's listening, we have a Whatsapp channel that we were talking about here and if you want to come and talk to us in our Whatsapp channel and maybe even talk to us here on an interview episode you can find all of the links and everything from our hopefully friendly website absolutely thanks very much nice to talk to you!Jack: thank you so muchWhatsapp Group Link: https://chat.whatsapp.com/H4LaiLAUc5SEiaxBp16aEpSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Kevin and Jack ask an important question about the universe: are aliens real? You have to listen to find out what their answers are.https://atozenglishpodcast.com/do-you-believe-in-aliens/Share your answers to the discussion questions in our WhatsApp group chat! https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Quick Chat Episode 15: Do you believe in aliens? Full Transcripts, Key Words, and Discussion Questions Kevin: Welcome to an A to Z English Quick Chat where Jack and I are gonna surprise each other with a topic for the day and just see where the conversation goes. Check our site for a study guide with vocabulary notes, discussion questions and more as well as links to our Whatsapp or Facebook pages. And you can join in the conversation there. So Jack what do you want to talk about today?Jack: All right, well I have a good topic for us uh Kevin. I want to ask you a question here: Do you believe in aliens?Kevin: Do I believe in aliens? And when you say let's define this. I think first, what do you mean aliens? Do you mean like bacteria living on another planet or like some creatures that are as smart as us traveling through space and visiting Earth…Jack: Yeah, I'm talking about uh life forms that are much smarter than we are um intel intelligent life forms that are advanced so uh advanced life outside yeah in in another universe or oh sorry in in the universe but in another galaxy um you know.Kevin: So maybe in our galaxy too. Our galaxy could be an argument right? Quite huge um yeah I mean I yes just to just to break it down I think definitely. I think for me I'm a big sci-fi fan. I know you are as well and although I've seen a lot of other science documentaries that talk about this from. Did you ever see the movie contact?Jack: Yes, I love the movie Contact.Kevin: Yeah, it's yeah, it's a really cool one and I think it was in the movie Contact where they looked up at the skies and they said you know is there life out there and they said more or less like if there's not, it's a waste of space.,Jack: True yeah.Kevin: That's a good, there's good, there's so many stars and galaxies and they're discovering more and more planets every day that it seems like how could there not be. I mean there's trillions and trillions and trillions of stars out there. Like it seems uh amazing to think that we're the only one in all of that.Jack: I agree and it's infinite. It goes on, it seems to go on forever and ever like there's, no there's no stop to the expanse of space and so if are you telling me that in all of that area that massive amount of just space, there's nothing, there's not, one of those stars is a sun of another uh you know uh planetary system that there are no planets that can uh sustain life and uh you know it might be there might be some that had like you said before that are just small organisms and it's not advanced life but if they have you know just simple life forms, then there must be planets out there that have advanced life forms are bound to happen.Kevin: If yeah and I think that simple life will have to exist and if simple life exists and eventually it will become not simple life like we are. The difficult or more interesting question is like do you think do you think aliens have ever you know so many people think that aliens have come to planet Earth and like abducted people and things do you think that that's happened do you think we've been contacted by aliens?Jack: Yeah, this is a very popular conspiracy theory in the United States uh the Roswell uh story right?Kevin: Area 51.Jack: Area 51, right, where supposedly an alien spacecraft crash landed uh in that area. Now is that in your, is that in New Mexico? Is that that's next to Arizona right? Yeah Roswell New Mexico okay and so there's also a big a large military installation around there right? I think there's, okay and so supposedly within this military base they have tried to reverse engineer a spaceship that is so far beyond our technological capabilities and so things that we are able to build. Our spacecraft are so much slower and so much less sophisticated than what this machine is and I think although the alien uh craft that crashed in Roswell doesn't work that was able to teach us some very sophisticated and advanced uh technology that we never even thought about using and so some people believe that's what some people believe right and so I'm probably I'm not gonna say I don't believe it and I'm not gonna say I do believe it. I am on the fence as we say in English. I'm on the fence. What about you? where are you?Kevin: I mean yeah, I can't say yes or no for sure on that one. I do think it's I'd say it's unlikely. I don't think aliens have actually come to Earth because if they have, I don't think it would could have remained a secret in the same way like if it happened, people would know about it. This isn't like a superhero movie where aliens come down and somehow no one knows about it for you know hundreds of years. like we would probably know and I do think alien life exists. Intelligent life probably exists somewhere in the universe but the universe is again so big that the odds of them finding us or us finding them are like finding a needle in a haystack. It's tiny that it's a you know 0.0001 chance of finding something because there's just so much out there you know they could point their telescopes like we are we're pointing our telescopes up into the galaxy and we find nothing because there's so much to look for and we're and we're constantly beaming messages out into space to see if we can get some kind of response or some kind of you know that signal will reach some intelligent life and it doesn't seem like we've ever gotten any definitive evidence of it. It's just there's been some strange things that have happened but there hasn't been that contact with an alien life form that would confirm, at least nothing that we know.Jack: Yeah.Kevin: I'm not sure if you've ever seen it. I'll have to try and find the map for you. There's um like you've been talking about, we've been beaming things out into space for 100, so years now with all of our TV and radio, but even all of that compared to the size of our galaxy let alone the universe, it's been going out for 150 years. It's a tiny amount like it's not gone very far right and so if there are aliens out there, unless they're very close to us which is possible, but who knows unless they're very close to us, they haven't noticed it yet you know. It's impossible for them to have seen it because it just doesn't go far enough right, so I think that there's aliens out there. I don't think they've been to Earth yet, and I don't know if they ever will be because it's just so big. it's like yeah trying to find one seashell, one specific seashell in all of the ocean.Jack: Yeah, you know, like I saw this show when I was five. Where did it go, the thing is, the thing I hope for is like just given enough time and enough effort that eventually something will happen where there will be some sort of intersection um or the other the alien species will be so advanced that they'll be able to travel at speeds that we cannot even imagine. Right now, um, you know I mean we've only been you know flight has only been possible for a hundred years. In America, I mean wasn't it the Wright Brothers who invented the airplane only 100 years ago.Kevin: Just over.Jack: Yeah yeah or just over 100 years ago, so the fact that we now have um you know little airplanes like Cessnas that can fly all over the place. We have giant jumbo jets that can transport hundreds of people.Kevin: To the moon.Jack: Yeah, then we can go to the moon. Um, it's really, it's amazing to think about what we've accomplished in just a hundred years so. If I fast forward two or three hundred years um, it makes me wonder if we're not going to, it just seems inevitable to me, like I just think that there will be we will at some point we find out that there is intelligent life but like you said, the ability for us to meet is so difficult because the distances are just, that's so incredible, but it's ridiculous yeah, the fact that space seems to go on infinitely makes me think there just have to be other places that are habitable for either human beings or other species of life form and so that's yeahKevin: There's two interesting thoughts about that that could take us a long time, but let's not do too long. One you said other species, other types of life, that's a very interesting one. Like for what we know, all life needs water for example right? But it's possible that there's some other crazy life that we can't even imagine that doesn't even need water out there, so maybe we're looking in the wrong place. But just to finish up, I've got one final question that to take this assuming that there is intelligent you know super advanced aliens out there Jack and assuming that eventually we will contact them do you think they'll be friendly? Jack: You know that's a good question. Again, I'm on the fence about this one. Uh I'm not sure if they look at what we're doing to our planet, the way we destroy our planet and the way we treat our planet so poorly. I wonder if they you know will look at us and say why are you not taking care of your planet um right? You know or the other side of that issue is maybe they did the same thing to their planet and they want to take our planet and use it for themselves, and so we become a lower species on the uh totem pole uh and so we become kind of working for them. So, it's kind of scary. I don't know what you know in the movies the aliens usually are the bad guys you know. They're coming to take our resources and they're coming to uh you know strip our planet of its of its natural resources and stuff like that and uh I prefer the other uh version where aliens just want to communicate with us and understand us and it's more like a they're just seeking information about the planetary systems and they come across Earth and they see human beings and they appreciate us for what we are you know um so we can we can only hope that they will be friendly because if they're more advanced than us, then if they're not friendly, we're in trouble.Kevin: Exactly, exactly. That's right, that's right all right well, yeah, I hope that they're friendly and let's see what happens. At least we do have some friendly people that we talk to in our chat room every day so have we got any listener mail.Jack: Um, yes, we want to talk to you today. We have some listener mail and I would like to talk about uh phobias. S, this one is from, let me see here, Layla. And Layla was talking about her phobias and she has a phobia of escalators which is interesting um and she says as soon as she, yeah, she says as soon as she thinks about escalators, her heart starts beating so fast And she says uh fortunately she has outgrown this phobia. Or at least she has tried to, I think. She's still, there's still a little bit of the phobia there, and uh she says in Dubai there are a number uh a big number of malls and they all have escalators and uh so she uses the stairs to go to the next floor the first floor the second floor and so uh or sometimes she says her sister-in-law will help her by holding her hands so that's the uh that's uh Layla's phobia. Yeah, so thanks for thank you for sharing that Layla.Kevin: Cool, all right well thanks everybody for listening, and we'll come back and talk to you more about aliens next time. Remember to check our webpage and our Whatsapp group for you to join in the discussion all right.Jack: Bye, bye.  Key Words:  Universe: all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos Bacteria: Microscopic single-celled organisms Expanse: the distance to which something expands or can be expanded. Sustain: support physically Intelligent life: beings that can learn and understand things Finding a needle in a haystack: The act of trying to find something very small in a very large area Infinitely: without limits; forever Discussion Questions:1. Do you believe in aliens?2. Do you think aliens have visited Earth?3. Do you want aliens to exist, or would you prefer humans to be alone in the universe?Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Kevin and Jack talk about what technology was like back when they were young! The conversation started to go long, so expect more discussions about tech from these two oldies later on. We also had some listener mail from episode 10 about your favorite things!https://atozenglishpodcast.com/technology-from-the-80s-and-90s/Share your answers to the discussion questions in our WhatsApp group chat! https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Full Episode TranscriptKevin: Welcome to an a to z English Quick Chat. We're going to surprise each other with a topic for the day and just see where the conversation goes. Check out our site for a study guide, for vocabulary notes, discussion questions and remember we've got links to Whatsapp, a Facebook page and all of our other social media where you can check in the conversation. So. Jack, we've been talking with a lot of our listeners in our Whatsapp group actually and something I've found interesting is that there's a lot of young people in there.Jack: That's right.Kevin: And we are old compared to some of them and it, I kind of think it would be interesting to talk about technology because even one thing in our Whatsapp group so many of our listeners are doing voice memos in there and I'm just not used to that.Jack: yeah right.Kevin: Like i do text like I like typing and that voice message is weird and it feels like that's where tech is going and so tech has changed so much in our lives, I mean. When we were kids, we had no internet.Jack: I didn't have the internet um even actually my whole uh school career you know elementary, middle and in high school.Kevin: Cool. So, when did you get? When did you get your first computer in your house?Jack: Oh, I never had a computer.Kevin: When you were growing up you never had a home computer?Jack: I never had a home computer. I had a word processor. So, imagine if you have a computer but you take away everything fun and interesting about it and just leave the whatever's left over the unfun part the you know typing and papers and printing papers and think documents, yeah that's what that's what I had was a word processor that was, it's basically a typewriter with a little bit of editing that you can do.Kevin: And just for everyone listening. Just so you know, Jack and I are both oldies, but Jack has me. He's older than me by uh five years so not a huge difference but when it comes to technology, we were both born right when you know home computers and internet and things were starting to move around the world, and so we're even though we're only a few years apart there's a significant difference because for me, Jack, we had a we had a personal computer in my house when I was in I'm pretty sure we had one in elementary school when I was when I was in elementary school and it was a very simple computer. It had like no Windows. it was a DOS system, so you know there was no graphical interface which most of our listeners probably can't imagine like if you wanted to play a game or if you wanted to open the word processor, you would have to type. You just come, you'd open it up and it would just be a black screen with the letter c colon forward slash and you would just type text and you would just go like you'd say like go to word processor folder. Open word processor, you know in different text but basically that you'd have to type theJack: Type in the command basically.Kevin: Right exactly! Yeah, yeah, so, we had that when I was in elementary school and then I do remember connecting not to the internet but I remember connecting to a BBC. It was a bulletin board, something not the BBC from England.Jack: Oh, okay a different BBC. I was thinking that…Kevin: Yeah yeah, no this is a different BBC. It was just basically a bulletin board and it was I don't even remember exactly how they worked. You would dial in with your modem, and so you'd use the phone line and dial in and you'd connect to someone's server where then sometimes they had games, sometimes they just had chat rooms where you could talk to your friends and like very simple stuff, but I remember doing that in in elementary school.Jack: Oh, I did that in elementary school with my uh, on my friend's computer. So, my friend had a computer, and he was talking about using expressions like the internet or uh and I didn't understand any of it. I didn't know what that was.Kevin: Yeah right.Jack: And so he we were able to uh like you said go to some uh someone's private server I suppose right? He would share some kind of game and it was always just like a very simple kind of like not even, not even Super Mario level, you know, grab, it was a couple squares actually.Kevin: Kind of you know speaking of that, did you have, did you ever have any video game systems?Jack: Yeah, we were, I was a hardcore video game guy, Like, I love the original Nintendo. So, I started with the uh, I can go, I can go back really far here for our listeners because I was there at the very beginning. I bought Pong at a garage sale when I was in elementary school, and my television and Pong is basically two… it's like tennis or ping pong, and you move the cursor up and down, and it knocks the ball back and forth that was it. That was like the first video game.Kevin: It really was the first video game. I mean if you bought it from a garage sale like you bought it obviously used of course because I think that came out in the 70s at some point originally.Jack: Yep, it was sitting in somebody's garage for a long time, and I just bought it for like a dollar or two dollars and brought it home.Kevin: Nice!Jack: And we had that for a little while, but it got boring quickly, and then my parents bought me an Atari which was very popular in the 80s as well. Um, I think Nintendo and Atari had kind of a battle and Nintendo obviously won, but uh yeah, it was uh you know it was one of those things where we didn't know at the time which one would be the uh you know the winner, so the Atari. I had like Pac Man and all and it was it was a fun. It was very fun. They had great games, so yeah.Kevin: I never had an Atari. My brother and I, we did buy the first Nintendo, the NES, the Nintendo entertainment system and we bought that not when it was, because again, we're a couple years younger, so we bought that like a couple years after it was first released. So, it wasn't a brand new product, but it was still the video game system, and yep, We had that with the original Mario and Duck Hunt of course.Jack: Yes!Kevin: Yeah, and yeah, so we had those original Nintendo systems as well, so I mean that's a computer. That's the original tech. Now I mean computer systems and video games today are obviously so much different.Jack: Yeah, and I think a lot of it has to do with if your parents are into you know uh computers and stuff like that, so when you're young, if you're you know in my generation, because I'm old. In the 1980s, some people did have computers, but it just wasn't very common. None of my friends, you know, other than my one friend who did have a computer, but even when we played games it wasn't computer games. We would play Nintendo or Atari, so yeah, they were separate. They weren't, it wasn't a gaming system.Kevin: It was a video game always, not a computer game, it was a video game.Jack: Exactly.Kevin: I guess that's a good point about if your parents were connected to it. I think although my mom and dad weren't super techy necessarily, they, my mom at least, had a connection with it because my grandfather way back in the day, he was one of the first binary programmers for Eastman Codex, so like my mom has stories of him bringing back you know like a book of ones and zeros and ones and zeros and ones and zeros and finding the problem in the code of the ones and zeros code.Jack: Wow.Kevin: So at least my mom like understood you know tech is a thing and computers are a thing and this will be the future, and we need to go from there.Jack: Yeah, yeah, I mean that that is really interesting because I you know as time went by um my friends, some of my friends started to get computers when I was getting into like high school and stuff like that okay um but my family just wasn't, we were not computer people. And so I was very much like kind of afraid of computers. They were too, they were just mysterious to me and I didn't know how to operate them, and so I would write my papers either by hand, so I would just write my essays you know handwritten, or I would uh type it on a word processor or a typewriter. So okay, yeah, I got and I took uh, even in high school, I took two or three typewriting classes, so like how to type basically, yeah, how to type. So, basically just a big room full of typewriters, and we would just type documents, just copy.Kevin: Oh wow!Jack: Yeah, look at it and then type it and I you know I kind of uh proudly can say I got up into I think I was 75 words a minute, something like that.Kevin: That's pretty good. That's, that's quite fast. I type I think I type around that speed now actually after years of practice, you know, like that's a pretty good speed. I learned that's funny to compare them. I learned typing from a program called Mario teaches typing, and speaking of Mario, because of course you know I was a Mario fan and so I had like you know on one of my early computers, we had a program that was Mario teaches typing, and it was like the original Mario game right where Marios is running from the left to the right side of the screen but for each Goomba or each bad person or each you know block that you have to jump or whatever it starts with a letter.Jack: Yeah.Kevin: You know so it's like you have to hit whatever and you're jumping over you jump on them and then it starts to get more complicated and faster. It becomes a word or a sentence or and it's faster and faster and otherwise Mario dies if you if you don't get it, so I learned typing not from just yeah copying text but from like a game basically. I gamified typing.Jack: Yeah.Jack: I'm kind of curious to our listeners out there um how did you learn to type? Like what you know, do they teach? You know, for the younger generation, I imagine that computers are in schools everywhere, so if you know go to school now, you have access to a computer. My daughter was uh using a computer from the time she was you know uh five years old, so she can you know scroll on a screen and she can do all kinds of uh you know computer you know things on a computer that I could never do even as an adult. Now I've learned to do it because I had to, but it was, it's just interesting to compare my childhood to my daughter's childhood.Kevin: So along with typing, I'd be curious how, it depends on the age of our listeners as well, like what kind of phone they first had when they had a cell phone because remember like you and I, we never had a cell phone until we were quite late. I had my first cell phone here in Korea in 2007 or 2008. And I remember original cell phones. They actually had like a keyboard right like actual physical buttons. You know the phones today. It's just all on the screen. But I remember teaching at an academy and one of my young students, she was probably like your daughter's age like 13 or 14 something like that and because there were physical buttons, it's like a keyboard. You can feel where your thumbs are on it. Uh, I remember I was teaching her something and I saw her hands under the table just going away and she was able to type very fast without looking at her phone keyboard as well, and like I asked, I was like get your phone really quick. I wasn't angry. I was like hold on. I looked at it and she had typed like a full sentence, a full paragraph, not looking at this little nine button keyboard down under her.Jack: Using the uh, is it called qwerty is that what the old text message?Kevin: qwerty, no qwerty is the keyboard that you use right now.Jack: Oh, okayKevin: Because look at your keyboard, Jack. The top and bottom that the keyboard is QWE.Jack: Oh, okay i thought qwerty was where you press the three times and it you get uh it's like yeah.Kevin: qwerty is your keyboard because if you look at the thing.Jack: I just noticed that it said, yeah I've never put that together before today.Kevin: No, I'm not sure what though. I don't know the name of that three like you know where the button has abc and then cef and yeah you have to like go through all of those, um, I don't know the name of that offhand, but yeah, it, she was using that system and it was just crazy quick and very impressive. But Jack, I mean this is this technology topic, I think we could carry this, we could talk about this for days, and we haven't even gotten away from our like elementary school let alone when we were in high school let alone when we actually had the real internet and things like that. I think we'll have to uh part two this one or maybe uh turn this into a multiple uh episode conversation. This is definitely gonna be a part two part three part four because I mean tech is such an interesting part of our lives and you and I have seen it from where there really wasn't any tech or very little at least to now most of our listeners just are you know have always had tech like always in their lives and the way that like games and things are all combined now with your computer and everything, and so in your smartphone.Jack: So, I think uh we covered video games we'll talk about uh some other uh examples of tech.Kevin: Yeah, we'll have to get back to the early internet. I mean just one last thing because the interesting thing about the internet is I remember going online right now you're just always online. you're always on the internet. When we were younger, it was like I'm gonna use the internet and you would have to go and log into it and turn it on and now even that is different. Like, internet is just everywhere, it's yeah ubiquitous…Jack: I don't know how yeah I lived without it for so, you know as long as I did.Kevin: And that's and that's what we can talk about because there's so many things that like our phones do today for us that we somehow did without many years ago, and it's interesting to compare because I remember doing without it, but I don't know in retrospect why exactly, yeah but let's come back to this later because we've got to get to some listener mail of course. We do have some listener mail, so you go ahead and get to that. Who have we heard from this week?Jack: So, today I'm going to read listener mail from one of our listeners named Salomeh and Salomeh writes in uh regards to the episode of uh what are your favorite things and so for her, she said, in the past few years my favorite things were reading pdf books from her computer and cell phone so that kind of goes along with our episode. Reading books on your phone, yeah reading books on your phone, reading books on your computer, she enjoys surfing the web, playing computer games and drinking coffee. So, I think surfing the net, you know surfing the internet and drinking coffee has to be one of the most fun things you can do.Kevin: They go together very well, coffee and the internet. Nice, and that was episode 10 right? what are your favorite things.Jack: Yes, that's right.Kevin: For now, let's go ahead and wrap up. So, for everybody, thanks for listening. Remember to go join our Whatsapp group. It's linked on the webpage. You can join in the discussion as well. Tell us what you think. Ask questions, reply to the discussion, or if you have any topics, anything that you want us to talk about, anything, we'll go from there. So, everybody thanks for listening and we'll see you next time!Jack: Bye, bye! Key WordsWord processor: a machine that lets users create, save, and print documentsCommand: an order or instructionGarage sale: a sale of used or unwanted goods; normally held in a person's garage or yardUsed: not new; an item for sale which was owned by a previous personBrand new: new; an item for sale which has never been previously owned Discussion Questions1. How did you learn to type?2. How old were you when you first used the internet?3. How old were you when you got your first smartphone?4. Do you enjoy playing computer games? Why or why not? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Kevin Roy, Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO based in Beverly, Massachusetts   Kevin Roy is the Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO, a full-stack digital ad agency, best known for search engine optimization but also providing paid media, Google AdWords, Facebook, and programmatic display services. Over the years the team has developed a number of internal systems to keep up with the work, including 24x7 online ordering system that funnels agency orders to his team and creates a workflow. Kevin says the agency always has more web development work than it can “keep up with” but over the past 15 years, it has always been a “loss leader.”  The agency's motto is “Page 1 or you don't pay.” Kevin explains that the agency does not guarantee the agency's services will get a client on Page 1. It's about whether the client pays. Unless we get our clients on Page 1 for the keywords that they pick, they don't pay us. If we don't get them ranked, they don't pay us. If we get them ranked and lose their rankings, they don't pay us. We have to get them ranked and keep them ranked Part of the “secret sauce” of the agency's success is a comprehensive understanding of Google's webmaster tools and its ever-changing rules. Websites are optimized “based on a few very important factors.” The agency has an 80-step process, which is frequently updated to adapt to Google's policy changes. As a recent example of a new Google requirement, Kevin cites desktop viewability. The agency has integrated this requirement into the websites it manages and tested the sites to ensure they meet “all those metrics.” Kevin warns against using “tricks” to “game the system” to get a site ranked. He says, “Google is always going to be bigger and have more resources” and will eventually figure out the “game.” “That's not a position you want to put your client in,” he says. He believes it is more important to “just try to provide quality and relevance” and then adds, “It does take people a little longer to get ranked when you follow the rules, but it also is harder to lose your ranking when you do.” When Kevin decided to start his agency, he offered to build websites and run SEO for three successful businesspeople on two conditions:  that they not tell anyone that he “did it for free” and that, if they were happy with his work, they would recommend him. The strategy worked. Today, the agency is 100% referral and “business just keeps coming in.” At the beginning of client engagement, GreenBananaSEO provides a free website audit and recommendations based on what it perceives to be a client's problem. Kevin says the agency is a “digital executioner” with an SEO division and a paid media division (focused on key performance indexes/conversions). He says the agency does “almost everything on a screen that's paid” including OTT (over-the-top) television, programmatic, geofencing, geotargeting, and addressable media. No billboards. No direct mail. “It's all paid media,” he explains, and the agency is “hired by people to make their messaging and their branding work.” Kevin can be reached on his personal page at: ijustmetkevin.com.or on his agency website at: greenbananaseo.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and my guest today is Kevin Roy, Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO based in Beverly, Massachusetts. Welcome to the podcast, Kevin.  KEVIN: Hey, thanks for having me. ROB: Great to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about GreenBanana and what you specialize in? KEVIN: We don't sell bananas. GreenBananaSEO is a full-stack digital ad agency, and we're primarily known for our search engine optimization, but we also have a significant portion of our clients run paid media, Google AdWords, Facebook, programmatic display. One of the reasons that a lot of people know us for search engine optimization is our mottol, which is “Page 1 or you don't pay.” So unless we get our clients on Page 1 for the keywords that they pick, they don't pay us. If we don't get them ranked, they don't pay us. If we get them ranked and lose their rankings, they don't pay us. We have to get them ranked and keep them ranked. And the big secret is there's no secret. You just do what you're supposed to do. Google publishes their webmaster tools. They're not fun to read. [laughs] We read them and we optimize people's sites based on a few very important factors that I could always touch on later. But you don't try to game the system. You just try to provide quality and relevance, and you magically rank. ROB: How do you think about socializing that knowledge across your team? Some people who are there might have an intrinsic knowledge of what it takes, they've digested the notes on what Google likes, what Google doesn't like. But somebody new comes in or somebody's new to the industry – how do you think about putting them on the path of not looking for tricks and of doing the right thing? KEVIN: That's a great question. We have a process. We have an 80-step process and we teach our members to follow that process. But we also have a hierarchy of SEO director-level knowledge that are always going and looking for the latest changes that Google has published that they made and how we have to adapt our process to that. Something that just came out recently was desktop viewability. It's something that Google is amping people for if they don't have the right desktop viewability, so we have to make that part of it, go in and test that, make sure their site is hitting all those metrics and adapting the site to that. ROB: That makes sense. SEO has a long history, and it's been through – you're making reference to tips and tricks, and there were all these conversations about “secrets.” There were tools people would provide that would tell you these secrets. Did you always come at it from the non-secrets angle, or was that an evolution and there were some tricks that once were kind of helpful, but have really attenuated as Google has evolved its algorithm? KEVIN: The thing that's always stuck in the back of my mind is how massive Google is. There are tricks and things that you can do to game the system and try to get the site ranked, but Google is always going to be bigger and have more resources, and they are ultimately going to figure that out, and that's not a position you want to put your client in. I always say, it's not if you get caught, it's when you get caught. So if you decide that's the game you want to play, then buckle up. Maybe that's something you want to do, but that's not what we do. It does take people a little longer to get ranked when you follow the rules, but it also is harder to lose your ranking when you do. It's a lot more beneficial. And our clients are real businesses that are really trying to promote their work, and they can't afford to get caught for something we did. ROB: Page 1, that's a great target. Are there ever keywords I would want to target where you would look at me as a client and say, “You know, I get it, but that's a no. We can't guarantee that”? Is there a target that's too high? KEVIN: There are two parts to that answer. Number one, we don't guarantee ranking. We guarantee that if we can't get you there, you don't pay us. So when people call and say, “Hey, GreenBanana, we need to get on Page 1 in a month for these keyword phrases,” I'm like, “Great. We have an AdWords campaign for that. I can guarantee you'll get on Page 1 with a Google AdWords campaign because we're going to bid higher than your competitors for that.” But there are certain things Google takes into consideration, like domain authority, how long the site has been living, how much content is on the site, and that a lot plays into how successful we think we're going to be before we start the campaign. So if you started a brand new dating website today and said, “I want to get on Page 1 for dating,” I would say, “Okay, it's going to take us about 18 months to get you ranked. This is what it's going to cost when we do get you ranked. Sign this contract.” And you'll probably say, “I can't afford this.” [laughs] Because eHarmony and Match.com and Plenty of Fish and those people have teams and teams of SEO people. So yes, we can do it, but a lot of times if it's a super broad term that is hyper, hyper-competitive, like – everyone calls us for mesothelioma. SEOs have been working on that for 15 years, so we have 14½ years of catch-up to do. It's going to be expensive. ROB: That all makes sense. Where did this whole thing come from, Kevin? What made you decide to start GreenBanana? KEVIN: I used to be the web director for a company called eRoom Technology that ended up getting bought by EMC. It's a workspace collaboration, kind of like – I don't know if you use Basecamp or Teams. ROB: I know all the stuff. ClickUp and so many things now. KEVIN: Yeah, all those collaboration spaces. The company got bought out, and I had a team of people under me, and next thing you know I was doing about two hours' worth of work doing web edit updates and going to the gym for the rest of the time and realizing my job was not going to last long. When my boss got let go, I went off and decided to start my own company. I got a good severance package, and I went around and found three people in the area that were really good, that I thought were successful businesspeople, and I said, “I'm going to build you a website for free. I'm going to do your SEO. You're not going to tell anybody that I did it for free, and if you're happy with it, you can recommend me.” That's legitimately how the business started. ROB: Wow. KEVIN: Two of them worked out. One of them, that company either moved – I can't even remember what happened. But two of them recommended me, and that started the spiral. To this day, I spend my time – we don't have an outreach program. We don't even do our own SEO. If you look at our SEO, it could be a lot better. I know the audience can't see this, but the left-hand side of this sheet, there's 30 RFPs that I had to write last week, and we're 100% referral. We just try to help people. We'll do free audits for people and say, “This is what we think you should do. Your problem may not be able to be solved by SEO” – for example, if it's a product that no one's ever heard of before, SEO Is not what you want. It's going to be programmatic or social to get in front of people that might like your product. So we spend our days doing that, and miraculously, business just keeps coming in. It's been like that for 15 years. ROB: When you mention RFP, is that an expression of interest from a client who needs a proposal, or more of a formal RFP, competitive…? KEVIN: That's a good question. I don't write RFPs. Actually, I did. I wrote two and spent weeks doing them and no one ever called me back, so I don't write RFPs. [laughs] People calling us and asking for quotes, that's what I call RFPs. ROB: Understood. So, you're turning around a proposal, someone says, “What does this look like?”, you do a little bit of discovery, “I want to rank for this, I want to rank for that,” you turn it around and tell them, “This is what it looks like.” KEVIN: Yeah. We do an audit and then come and tell them, “Hey, is SEO the right thing for you? If it is, we'll help you pick some keyword phrases.” Then we send it to them, there's usually a little back and forth, and then we decide if we want to move forward or not. ROB: You just mentioned programmatic. I know earlier you mentioned not just SEO, but paid search, and then you mentioned social, which I didn't hear you mention earlier. Scope of services is always an interesting conversation. Where do you draw the line? Are you doing paid social? Do you do organic social? Where do you say yes, where do you say no? KEVIN: It's all paid media. We do almost everything on a screen that's paid, like OTT, which is connected to television, programmatic, geofencing, geotargeting, addressable. What we don't do is anything print. We don't do billboards. We don't do direct mail. People hire us because we're digital executioners. We don't even do – if someone calls and says, “I want the sexiest branding of anybody,” that's not what we do. We're hired by people to make their messaging and their branding work. We have an SEO division and we have a paid media division. The paid media team is solely focused on KPI or key performance indexes or conversions. When someone comes to work for GreenBanana as our paid media side, especially if they're from another agency, I tell them, if you're really, really good at this job, you can sell reporting for maybe two to three months. But you can sell conversions and leads forever. So everything that you're doing, you should absolutely figure out in the very beginning. We don't start a campaign until we figure out what the goal of the client is, and then you take the media that you're serving and drive it to that goal and try to maximize it. Sometimes social, like Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, will outperform Google AdWords, or programmatic will outperform Twitter. A lot of our clients will come to us with, “Hey, I want to spend $5,000 in social and $2,500 in AdWords,” and we find out after running a campaign for 30 to 60 days, “You know what? AdWords is getting you double the amount of leads for the budget. We recommend you switch and pull your money from social into that.” And they always say yes, because the client doesn't care who we're giving money to; they just care about the success of the company. So that's how we do that. Our account execs are really well-versed in every single medium, and they're medium agnostic. They don't care if budget gets pulled from one medium to another, even if it affects our margin at GreenBanana, because our job is to get the campaigns to be most successful. Those are the clients that increase budget, that stay with us forever. We have a plumber that has been with us for 13 of our 15 years, and they went from spending $750 a month to $40,000 a month over that long period of time because the campaigns that we're working on are producing results. ROB: Right. It's an engine for their business now and would be a fairly terrifying thing to switch out, I think. Also hard to get too different – even if they wanted to test out a competitive firm, it's a little hard because then you're bidding on some of the same stuff, I would think. KEVIN: Oh yeah, that's a great point. You can't run two Google campaigns because if you have two firms running two Google campaigns, Google's only going to show one, and the one that's showing is going to actually be more expensive than the one that isn't. You just outbid yourself. So if you're a company ever trying to pit one agency against the other, don't have them run the same medium. Don't have them both run Facebook or both run AdWords. It's a terrible idea. ROB: That sounds like a good way to spend $80,000 a month instead. KEVIN: It's a good way to blow a lot of money, yeah. ROB: You mentioned you had this initial flywheel in the firm, three test subjects and some referrals, and still growing and spinning it by referrals. What was the moment – your title is co-founder, so where else did this start, and when did it start to expand beyond the co-founder territory? KEVIN: It got to a point where I was – we do web development in-house. We never talk about it because we have more than we can keep up with, and for some reason, in 15 years it's never been profitable. It's always this loss leader. So I was doing a lot of web development, and I was outsourcing the stuff that I couldn't keep up with. The outsource company that was local called me and said, “We can't keep up with the demand that you're sending us. Here's a guy we recommend you send some of this stuff to.” His name is Mark, and he's my business partner now. He and I really hit it off, and I said, “Let's just get in this together because we have complementary skillsets.” So that was the co-founder piece. When it went beyond it, we didn't have any money when we started. We didn't have any private equity. No angel investors. We would save a little and then hire an employee, and save a little and hire an employee. If you look at the trajectory of GreenBanana, we've always grown, but it's been a slow, steady organic growth to where we are right now. There are companies that have surpassed us that haven't done that, and you could argue that's a great way to do it, just got a big influx of cash and hired a team. But we said, no, we're just going to keep reinvesting the money we make and build and grow and learn. As we grow, we build. We have internal systems that we've built because we have a lot of other agencies that are clients of ours. We built an online ordering system so at midnight, an agency can put in all the orders and have it funnel to my team and create a workflow. But that didn't happen overnight. It took us a year and a half to build it. ROB: Right. You mentioned this commitment to steady growth. It can be tempting to push the fast-forward button. How, over this time, have you resisted the temptation to – whether it's to take a buyout and take some growth there, whether it's to take in some money and boost some hires – how have you been thinking about that as you proceed and stuck to the path of building growth organically? KEVIN: That's a great question. In the beginning, no one was coming and asking us, “Here's a bunch of money to go do something.” So that was easy. We did have some periods that we got a lot more customers than we could handle and we made mistakes. So that also made us nervous, and making sure that if someone just handed us a blank check, we probably wouldn't know what to do with it. If the opportunity came where someone said, “Here's a bunch of money and here's the 10 agencies that we've grown exactly like yours,” that would be a lot more attractive. Now that we're at the revenue that we're at, we're actually getting people that are asking us for that. But we haven't gotten anything attractive enough to have us say, “We'll give up half the business for that.” That's actually the answer. The answer is nothing's been attractive enough. ROB: That seems to be the case in services in general. I hear, at least, quite often that you're measuring the value of the business based on EBITDA, based on your actual earnings, and maybe you can back out some expenses that have been loaded onto the business, that kind of thing. But really, if you're healthy on EBITDA, then the business needs some cash to grow and some cash to distribute, and what's the hurry on the sale? The terms aren't usually enough to make you say, “I couldn't make that much profit in three years.” KEVIN: Right. Exactly. That seems to be what's happening. Also, I don't think digital's going away. I do think that certain mediums may come and go, but we're medium agnostic, so if Facebook blows up next month, it's going to stink, but we can shuffle. ROB: As you reflect on this journey so far – I guess you're about 12 to 13 years in – what are some things you've learned on this journey that you wish you could go back and tell yourself to do differently? It sounds like you wouldn't tell yourself to go take a check and get bought out, but I imagine there are some things you would consider doing differently along the way. KEVIN: I think a lot of it is psychological for me. If I could go back and say to 12 or 13 years ago Kevin, I'd say part of being an entrepreneur is there's a lot of times where you're taking three steps forward and two steps back. But the two steps back are never that bad. I've spent countless sleepless nights thinking of the worst thing that could possibly happen, and it's never happened. Not even kind of happened. It's legitimately never happened. So, if I could go back, I'd say stop worrying about that and focus on all the positive things because that thing's never going to happen. And if it repeatedly hasn't happened in 13 years, it's not a coincidence. So I think that's something I wish I knew a long time ago. But it's also something that I continue to wrestle with because it's kind of burned in the back of your brain. ROB: Absolutely. I needed that reminder from some other entrepreneurs yesterday. You have that moment, you have that day, where something small bad does happen. We had a job offer out that I was really excited about, and the last eight offers we put out were all accepted, and this person said no. I was like, oh man, that was not the answer I wanted. But same thing – you lose a client, but along the way, you've planted those seeds so that six months from now, you're going to say, “That was a speedbump. That was not the end of the world.” We grew from there. A lot of folks said their experience has been they hired somebody better right after they got a no. It's that long perspective, and I think planting the seeds and knowing you've done the work along the way. KEVIN: Right. There's a great quote – I don't even know who said it, but you don't find a way to go around the problem; you find a way to go through it. It seems to work out. We had an employee that stole almost a quarter of our business, left with that, and we made it back in a year. It's honestly the best thing that's ever happened. So things like that, at the time, horrible. And then I wouldn't change a thing now. ROB: [laughs] You might give them 50 cents to go do it. KEVIN: Seriously, yeah. ROB: They took maybe some customers that were more challenging to manage or maybe more loyal to a person than to the process. There's a lot to think about there. KEVIN: Yeah, and it makes you sit and evaluate and say, “What things do I have to do and what do I need and what are the things that are necessary?”, and you end up becoming better. That's what entrepreneurs do. People that aren't entrepreneurs don't understand it because those people are the ones that won't take that risk and say, “I've got to go. I can't do this. I can't handle this stress.” The entrepreneurs say, “I've got to figure out how to deal with it, because this is it.” ROB: Right. Kevin, as you look ahead to GreenBanana, the future of GreenBanana and the practice areas you're in – you mentioned maybe some channels go away, maybe there are some ways you're thinking about shifting the practice – what does the future look like? What are you excited about? KEVIN: I'm excited about – technology is increasing. Whether you find this good or bad, creepy or not, the amount of data you have on client behavior is only getting better and enabling us to be more accurate in helping our clients hit their conversions. So that evolution is really exciting. With the products that we have, like Google launching GA4 – they already launched it, but GA4 is better than Universal Analytics in how you can see data. Those things inside the products are great, and there's also all these other new products that are really exciting. I'm personally really excited about decentralized finance and crypto. We're trying to figure out a way to accept crypto payments. It's a pain in the butt to figure it out, but little things like that are fun for me, and I think as long as you're excited about learning about new tech, there's always going to be a business for a digital agency. ROB: That's interesting on the accepting crypto side. Even for existing financial applications – we had a client who wanted to pay us their discovery budget on I think Venmo, and getting a business account up and running on these services from a KYC perspective, instead of a personal account – half the time it's like they never even thought about it. There's a lot ahead of us on that front, I think. KEVIN: Yeah. That's the part we're having trouble with. If you want to send me crypto to my crypto personal wallet, it's easy. We can do it literally right now. But getting it into the business, getting it into QuickBooks, getting it to my accountants – I was like, whatever. Future Kevin will work on that. [laughs] ROB: Is there any particular business that you're seeing, some type of business that is perhaps most open to paying in crypto? What's that look like? KEVIN: None of the current businesses we're working with – I won't say none of them, but most of them wouldn't consider it. It's just something I'm personally interested in and I think it's going to happen. ROB: Absolutely. A lot of these things took some time, and then it's daily happenings. Pulling a little deeper into the topic, what are you seeing in defi and crypto? What direction excites you the most? Sometimes we're placing bets; sometimes we're just thinking about placing emotional bets with where we place our attention. What's drawing you as the most tangible next few things that are going to happen? KEVIN: I'm invested in crypto. The things that have done the best for me are Bitcoin and Ethereum. I do read some other defi newsletters, but full disclosure, none of them have done great. But I haven't really gone crazy into it. I spend most of my time on my company rather than researching that. I think the ease of transaction and the transparency of the transaction is so important, and I think that is what is going to – once people start to get more comfortable with decentralized finance, the ability to send money back and forth where there's a trackable ledger of it, I think that is really going to change business. I mean, for us to get a check from someone, for us to send money back and forth, for us to do an ETH transaction, it's our billing department on a phone call with someone, it's back and forth, it's waiting for 24 hours. Wallet to wallet is a QR code and a button, and it's there, and the ledger's there. I really think that's going to start to change the world if people can let go of the fact that they're not comfortable with it. ROB: There's a lot there and there's a lot to learn from all at the same time. Some of this stuff is kind of hard, some of the fees are kind of high, but you also see – I was just out at South by Southwest in Austin, and one of the most visible activations there was for an NFT collection called Doodles. They'd let you in the activation with your SXSW badge, but they'd let you in the VIP line if you could prove that you were a holder of a Doodles NFT. Which is about 12 ETH, so it's… KEVIN: Yeah, that's a lot of money. ROB: Absolutely. Looking at that, someone was like, “Could you just buy it and sell it?” I said, it depends on whether the thing's been pumped by the conference. If it's pumped by the conference, you're going to lose 2 ETH just because you bought it at a spiky time. That's bad news. KEVIN: I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the value of an NFT because it's a picture on a screen that everybody can take. I know you pay and it's yours, but you and I could take screenshots of each other right now. It's hard to tell who owns it. ROB: In this case they actually were validating ownership against the blockchain. To get in, they were actually authenticating the ownership. But definitely hard right now. KEVIN: Exactly. It's a currency that's validated, but it's like, what's the value of having that picture other than getting an entrance? I understand that piece of it, but sticking it on your computer and saying “I own this,” like the picture behind me – it's not really worth anything. I'm still trying to wrap my head around NFTs, and that's my fault because I know that they're really taking off. ROB: There's a lot to go there. Even in the judgment of art. I can buy art at IKEA or I can buy art at Sotheby's, and those are two very different things. But I can buy art at IKEA that probably looks like something I could buy at Sotheby's. The value there is subjective, and where it lands, who knows? KEVIN: Yeah, exactly. I heard this really interesting podcast about a guy that was spending – he's a wine collector, and some of those bottles of wine are hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he said, “I drank one and it really wasn't that good.” [laughs] “You can get a comparable wine for $28.” ROB: Absolutely, or $3 at Trader Joe's, right? KEVIN: It's like, is that $400,000 better than the $3 one? [laughs] Or is it 15 times better? ROB: Kevin, when people want to find and connect with you and with GreenBanana, where should they go to find you? KEVIN: I used to lose my business card all the time, so I bought ijustmetkevin.com. ROB: Nice. KEVIN: That'll take you to my page. Or you can just go to greenbananaseo.com ROB: That is excellent. Kevin, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your experience, your knowledge, things you've learned. I think we're all better for it. Thank you very much. KEVIN: I appreciate your time. This was wonderful. Thank you. ROB: Best wishes to you and the team. Take care. KEVIN: Thanks. Take care. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Kevin Blundell goes through 10 essentials from The Location Analyzer Checklist - the must haves for your next profitable martial arts location.IN THIS EPISODE:Using The Location Analyzer Checklist to pick the perfect martial arts locationPutting your passion for martial arts aside for clear business decisionsThe 3 most important things to consider when choosing your new locationWhy you should ‘visit for the vibe' of your chosen locationSetting up your school where people live vs where they workAnd more*Need help growing your martial arts school? Learn More Here.TRANSCRIPTIONWe found that the yoga studio was having an open day so we, ironically, had an open day at the same time. And yeah, we got quite a bit of interest from there and students who joined. GEORGE: Hey, George here. Welcome to the Martial Arts Media Business podcast. And today, I've got a repeat guest for the fourth time. I think this is a record, Kevin. KEVIN: Yeah, I think so, George, and I think it's about our fourth time we've had a chat. GEORGE: So just for a recap, way back, this goes a couple of years back, so the first episode was 20 – 100 New Martial Arts Students in 5 Weeks Without Sleazy Selling. We got back together on 115 – The Strategic Mindset Behind Running 23 Successful Martial Arts Schools. And then, 129 – Success By Design – Foundations Required To Setup Your Next Profitable Location. So today, we're getting back together and it's a bit of a follow-up from the process of talking about The Next Profitable location. And we were discussing The Next Profitable Location Blueprint. Today, we're going to do a bit of a deep dive. And one question that comes up a lot is, what are the things to look for when you set up your new location? And so, in the course that we created, The Next Profitable Location Blueprint, we've got a worksheet that you can download at this episode. So, depending where you're watching or listening, it's at martialartsmedia.com/131, the numbers 131. And it's called The Location Analyzer Checklist. We're not going to dive deep into Kevin's story. You're going to have to go through all those podcasts I just mentioned. So, we're going to dive straight into the good stuff. Are you happy with that, Kevin? KEVIN: That'd be great, George. GEORGE: All right, perfect. So, we've got The Location Analyzer Checklist in front of us, and these are 13 steps altogether, things that you should be checking out for when setting up your next location. And we're just got to go top to bottom. We'll probably have time for about the first 10. And we're just going to discuss them and jump straight in. All right. So, Kevin, so Location Analyzer Checklist, if we start from the top. Number one, think with my head and not with my heart...

Kevin Withane is the founder of Diversity-X: a community to help underrepresented founders who are trying to make a positive impact in the world thrive, scale, and grow. Chad talks with Kevin about giving underestimated founders connections and access, creating a venture fund, and creating a platform via DiversityX. Follow City DiversityX on Twitter (https://twitter.com/diversityx_vc). Follow Kevin on Twitter (https://twitter.com/KevinWithane) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwithane/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Kevin Withane, founder of Diversity-X. Kevin, thanks for joining me. KEVIN: Chad, thank you so much for having me on this show. CHAD: Kevin, I know you have deep expertise and background in law and ethics and compliance, particularly when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion issues. And that has led you to create Diversity-X. And so what is Diversity-X? KEVIN: Diversity-X is a community for underestimated founders trying to make a positive impact in the world. We're working on creating a VC fund for it. And also, it's an ecosystem to support those underestimated founders and help them thrive and scale, and grow. CHAD: That's great. What kind of support and community are underestimated founders lacking, and how does Diversity-X fill in that gap? KEVIN: I think it's a mix of connections and access. I use the term underestimated rather than what many people term as underrepresented because there are plenty of people of color founders, plenty of LGBTQ+ founders, plenty of female founders, disabled founders, veteran founders. There are lots of them in the world, so they are represented. They're just underrepresented in the equitable allocation of capital and particularly venture capital at early stage, which sees many of these founders not necessarily succeed or have to work that little bit harder just to get a starting place where many others get funding a lot earlier and a lot easier in their journey. And I'm not saying raising capital is easy at all for anybody, but it's easier for certain groups of people than it is for others. CHAD: What makes it easier? KEVIN: I'm going to be candid in my views. I think it makes it easier if you're a white male; nothing against white males, but it's easier. There's that privilege. But also, you look, sound, probably have a lot of similar backgrounds to the people who are allocating the money who have control over whether they invest or don't invest in the startups. And I think; also, they tend to have better connections or better ins. It is a generalized statement, but data shows that 93% of VC money typically goes to white male founders. So it's backed up by data to an extent. CHAD: Right. And it doesn't even need to be ill intent. In some cases, there might be, but it doesn't need to be. So much of the VC world is about connections, and what you've done previously, and who you know, and the intro you're able to get. And then, when you finally get the meeting, if you're out pitching something that just isn't even on the radar of the typical VC, they're not going to connect with your idea in the same way that you do. When we're building products, having a diverse team of people allows us to see all the different aspects of that product and have people saying, "Well, what about this? From my background or my perspective, I understand that this is a particular concern for women around the safety of this," or something. And people say, "Oh yeah, I didn't even realize that." KEVIN: Yeah, that's a great point. Within the Diversity-X community, very early on, I realized one of the probable flaws for VC is, let's be honest, it's a very male-dominated industry. I think they are making real strides to change it, make it more open, more accessible to females and people of color. But essentially, for the most part, it is people who look and sound the same and typically are a white male. And there's no disrespect, but sometimes you can get a pitch about femtech. And while she may go, "Yeah, I can see that this could be a problem," you don't know because the fact is you're not a woman. You just don't know. And I experienced that very early on speaking to a female founder who's part of the community, and she's really trying to do some amazing stuff. But at first, I was like, "I can empathize with the issues you're trying to address here and the problem, but that's as far as my knowledge goes." And it made me wonder if VCs who are getting this sort of pitch will probably turn them down. They can't understand the problem. So, therefore, they can't understand what the solution that the founder is trying to come up with is really trying to address. And so pushes it by because they don't have that expertise, and that's not their fault; it's just there's a lack of diversity in the VCs themselves to be able to address that. But then you hear these stories about male founders coming with a femtech solution almost on the back of a cigarette packet. And they're getting X amount of dollars to go and do some research and try and start building a product around what their idea is. And yet many of the female founders are scratching their head; well, we didn't have an in to that VC, so we never got in. And yep, so we don't get funding for what is a problem that we actually experience ourselves, and we're trying to address. CHAD: This conversation reminds me of a conversation that I had in 2018 in Episode 279 with Alex Friedman, the co-founder of LOLA, which is a feminine products company. And she talked about how it was clearly uncomfortable for the people that they were talking to to talk about these kinds of things. So even that can have an aspect to it where like...and then men may be more comfortable talking with men about feminine products than they are to women about them. And it just permeates the whole conversation when you're trying to launch a product that you need money for if it's uncomfortable, or it's foreign, or all of those things. KEVIN: Absolutely. The industry needs to change in a couple of ways, I see. There needs to be greater emphasis on VCs building networks and connections into the communities and to the founders that are underestimated people of color, female from different socioeconomic backgrounds that may not have been able to afford to go to MIT or Harvard but super-smart people solving real-life and real-world problems. And VCs themselves need to look at their own diversity, like, it is not diversity just for the sake of well, we need X number of women now with investing power, or we need more people of color to invest. It's because those people bring their lived experiences, which is the same for any business. It's no different if you're a big corporate. The reason for diversity is the same. It's to get that cognitive diversity, that cognitive difference of lived experience, which in the end, bring into your field. It's something as human beings we can't detach ourselves from. We can't detach ourselves from our lived experience. We take that everywhere we go. CHAD: So what's involved in creating a venture fund? KEVIN: A lot more work than I thought. CHAD: [laughs] KEVIN: I don't have a venture background, so I'm already 700 steps behind everybody else that is doing it. Even the good guys who are trying to actually address this problem, many of them actually come from a venture background. But I'm looking out there, and I'm seeing people like Matt the VC, Arlan Hamilton, and they inspire me that I can do this. Because, ultimately, I had a soft conversation with a family office just to try and explain what I'm doing and see if there'd be interest. And they actually liked the idea. But they said to me, "Who are your competitors out there?" And I said, "Look, you can think of me as naive, but the reality is I don't think I have any competitors." And the reason is because we have a mission. Our vision is a world where you don't have underestimated founders. Our mission is to grow the world's biggest community of underestimated founders and support those that are VC-ready and the right fit for funding that are going to be successful with capital. And whilst there are other companies and funds doing this, they have niches where they focus on certain areas. We're much broader. But ultimately, no matter how much I raised in the fund, it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be enough to meet the gap that there is right now and the opportunity. So when you say competitor, every time an underestimated founder gets funded and gets given the opportunity to really address the problem that they're trying to tackle, that's a win for me because it's helping my mission and the vision. So that's the way I look at it. And yes, that is a little bit naive, maybe. But you look at Elon Musk, and you look at founders who are trying to do amazing things. And you don't really knock them down for their grand visions. You have to aim high, and that's what we're trying to do at Diversity-X. CHAD: So I noticed that you are particularly focused on the UK and Europe. And in my experience, the investment community tends to be different between the United States and Europe. How have you found that, and has that been adding a challenge on top of a challenge? KEVIN: Yeah, it is adding a challenge on top of a challenge. It is different. I think the U.S., in some senses, is much more progressive, much more open. It's funny, I was talking to a friend, and I was saying...I can't really talk numbers because I don't want to get in trouble with the FCA. But I said to him, "This is the sort of size of the fund I'm looking to raise." And he is an American. And he just looked at me and said, "Why?" And I said, "Well, you need sort of skin in the game. You need this, this, and this." He looked at me and said, "You are the skin in the game. Your passion comes through." Guys in America, people will be looking at you, saying, "You're way too small. You need to go much bigger than this." And I said, "But skin in the game, skin in the game, skin in the game." He said, "Don't tell me about that. Go big and see if people will buy into it." And that's I think much more of the view across the pond. There's much more appetite. And I think for European VCs and particularly those probably starting out trying to address some of the issues that Diversity-X hopes to address, we've got to move probably and work hopefully in tandem with the more progressive, more open, more solution-oriented VC funds that are coming from the U.S. Because quite frankly, they are coming here now. They're coming to UK and Europe. But the reason I wanted to start in the UK and focus on the UK and Europe is that's where I'm based. That's where the best part of my knowledge is. Although interestingly, I guess my network is probably from the LP side, probably stronger in the U.S. So we'll see how that pans out. CHAD: I assume that there are some legal requirements to starting a venture fund. Or can anybody do it, I guess is the...[laughs] KEVIN: Maybe this is part of the problem as well as, the bar for entry just to start a fund is high, and it's expensive. So I guess I'm blessed that I've had the opportunities I've had in the past to be able to build something to be able to start this. But yeah, it's a myriad. And as a lawyer and someone who's even done transactional work on private equity and even helping some startups on fundraising and seeing how it works, it is very difficult. And you could be dealing with multiple jurisdictions depending on where your limited partners are. So there's a lot to factor in. And then it's not just the legal fees; it's the fund administration and the fund management. For instance, in the UK, are you going to be regulated if your fund doesn't need to be regulated? Or are you going to be authorized on your own, or are you going to use an umbrella? What does that mean? So it's a real steep learning curve. And I've got to admit, in my personal journey, there have been too few who have responded to my request just for help and advice, including what I would consider...I use this as the good guys, but the people trying to address the same problems that I am either focused on female. You reach out, but there's no return call. But there is one person who's a traditional fund; he is a white male VC. But honestly, he came back. We had a call. We talked about stuff. He said, "Keep in contact. Let me know how it's going," and he's tried to help me. A couple of weeks later, I didn't hear from him, and then all of a sudden, an email popped up, or a message popped up saying, "Oh yeah, sorry it's taken me a couple of weeks to get back to you. But I just wanted to make sure that here's an introduction. This could be the partner you're looking for blah, blah, blah." I was blown away by that, that kind gesture. Somebody who just literally could have had a call with me said, "Yeah, not interested in this, never going to go anywhere. Why exert any effort?" CHAD: That's great. You mentioned it is difficult. It's always difficult to start something new. But you're doing it alone. You don't have a partner. KEVIN: No. I'm on the hunt for a partner. It's like dating, I guess. You keep trying to kiss a lot of frogs to find that person. Ultimately, knowing that I'm going to get challenged, rightly so, on track record, I would like to find a partner who has VC experience, who buys in deeply to the concept, and the mission, and the vision that we have and is looking to build a VC firm, not a fund, i.e., this is not a one and done exercise. This is about creating over multiple funds and, hopefully, generationally growing this to something really special. CHAD: Well, if you're listening, and that describes you, get in touch with Kevin. [laughs] KEVIN: Absolutely. Mid-roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: In the meantime, while you're working on building this venture fund, you said, okay, I'm going to start building a community right away, right? KEVIN: Yep. CHAD: And when it comes to platform, how are you doing that? Are you using something off the shelf? Are you piecing it together? How's it going? KEVIN: It's such hard work. Who would have thought? My wife laughs at me because since she's known me, every time we go into a town, or a village, or a shop that has a community board, I'll stop and read it. And she would laugh. She's like, "It's such a geeky thing to do." And I was like, "I love community. I like to know what's going on, what's happening." I presumed that it's, therefore, relatively easy to build one. Then I was very nervous, and I was like, I don't know how to get started. And somebody who's in the community but also just an amazing person, Amy, she said to me, "Dude, just get started. Stop procrastinating. Just start a WhatsApp group," so I did. And then I invited a couple of friendly faces, i.e., friends, and said, "Please, can you join this group?" And then I invited a couple of founders that I had just connected with and just started having conversations with. And from that moment...and this was early October, and then my son went into hospital. But from that moment, it started growing. So beginning of October 2021 to date, we have about 60 founders, which I think is not bad. And we use a WhatsApp group. Then I had some conversations and got some feedback from the founders. And they said, "Look, we need some more organization because our feed is blowing up with the amount of traffic going through it. So we need some sort of structure. We need some resources and different things." So I was looking around, and I was like, by the end of day, what can I get for free? Because I'm not making any money on this. And what can I get for free? So we moved it...we didn't move it. We set up on Slack. But I've got to say despite having more organization, the bulk of the activity still works around WhatsApp. But I will say this; I'm not a tech person, so I do need support on this. So if there's anybody who wants to volunteer to give me some advice, or help, or just come onboard maybe in some capacity, I am trying to build a platform that's web-based, maybe even app-based, that can help facilitate conversations, learning, investor matching. Because part of what I'm doing, whilst I haven't raised a fund yet, is that there are members in this community who need support right now, financially. I can't give that to them, but there are good people out there, good angels, or even some of them, probably VCs that would. And so it's trying to create a platform where we can connect those founders, those underestimated founders, and I think predominantly angels. But if any VCs want to join, that'd be great too, just to help these guys get started. They need to start moving forward, and they can't wait for me to get a fund up and running. So whatever I can do. So I am looking at building a platform. It's just in the question of how do I do this? And is there anybody to help me? CHAD: If you're a founder who wants to get involved in this community and think it would be beneficial to them, where do they go to do that? KEVIN: I'll say reach out to me either email me kevin.withane@gmail.com or connect with me on LinkedIn, two best Places. We'll chat. But generally, the community is open. If you're an underestimated founder, if you just tick that box, you're in. Come and learn, grow, support, be supported. You'll see that. We've had some new members in the last week who have just said, "This is a really interesting community." And I spoke with one today that said, "I'm generally very wary, particularly about being around people who have similar businesses to what I have, you know, competitors." And I said, "Why? Why are you scared of competitors?" And she's in a field which relates to sustainability. I said to really deliver the sustainability you want to deliver, it's about collaboration, and that's what this group has. It has that in spades, people working together, people supporting each other, e-platform. They are going gangbusters on sharing information. This is what we use. This is a great book. This is a great resource. These are great people to go and speak to. And so it takes the pain and reduces the stresses of being a founder, which you've got to do so many different things. And generally, you've got to do all of those things on your own with a very few number of people supporting you. CHAD: And I imagine that a lot of the people in the community so far are people who invite each other in. KEVIN: Yeah, and there are other people that I've met who have contacted me and said, "Look, we've got this startup. We're looking for an advisor, or we're just looking for a bit of support," or even someone saying, "We're looking for investment." So I'm very upfront where we are at the stage we are. But I'll introduce him to the community, and they start embedding themselves in it. And it's growing. As I said, the mission I don't know if it's bold enough, but I think it is bold. CHAD: [laughs] KEVIN: It is to be the world's largest community of underestimated founders. And I actually asked a question with the group yesterday was, "How do I go from, say, 50 to 500 in a few months but real genuine people that want to be community members like actually contribute and be active?" I'm still waiting for the answer to that question. I'm hoping it's going to come next week. [laughs] CHAD: [laughs] So I'm curious, given your work in, and correct me if this is wrong, but I would say a more corporate space, in your work in international law firms and global public companies and that kind of thing. How has that experience either been different or the same as what you're trying to do now? And how do traditional companies approach issues like this? KEVIN: So I get to work with...I have a day job, as I call it, but Diversity-X and supporting diversity is my passion. To address some of the passions that I have, the reality is not every workplace can or chooses to allow that to happen for employees. In certain companies, your role is your role. And if you want more, then go outside. So for me, there are things I wanted to do that I don't get the opportunity to do in my workplace or in the way I want to do it in my workplace. So I started looking outside; well, who can I help that needs someone like me to help them with this sort of thing? And that's how I fell into helping startup founders. And that's where I found this absolute passion. I think everybody who works with founders and startups is always energized in a way that incorporates the energies that sits in pockets in my experience. And you don't tend to see huge organizations. And this is not to say they don't exist; there are some that do but who are energized and focused on a purpose. I think those that have purpose that's really, really clearly defined and embedded do have this energy of drive and innovation and disruption and even go as far as trying to have radical change. Others are trying to learn. And to be fair, to many organizations, some of this stuff is new to them. And they're learning, and it takes time, and you have to give them time, and you have to give them the opportunity to fail and make mistakes. So there are a lot of companies that are trying to do the right thing, trying to be better, trying to embrace their people and the issues, and the things that their people care about but as well as balancing with the wider stakeholders because they have multiple stakeholders; it's not easy. It's a tough balancing act for anybody in a leadership position in the corporate to say, "Well, look, we've got to deliver financial results. But also, we've got to think long term, but we're measured on short term." How do you do that? It takes a lot of work and effort, which is why I see the opportunity for startups, in particular, to operationalize this stuff early on. So that becomes embedded because retrofitting is very expensive and very time-consuming, and resource-heavy. CHAD: Having lived and worked in the UK, China, Hong Kong, Russia, The United States, how are things different in all those places when it comes to work and issues like this? KEVIN: Let me just quickly ask you a question see what you think. Where do you think was the hardest place of those locations to live and work? CHAD: Hmm. Russia? KEVIN: It's interesting. CHAD: I don't know. KEVIN: No, no, no. People would usually say, and people do say to me, "Oh, China must be really hard, or Russia must be really hard." CHAD: Well, I went to visit China about two and a half years ago. And it completely changed my perspective on what China is like, and so that's why I didn't answer China. But I don't want to invalidate your perspective if China was the most difficult place for you. [laughs] KEVIN: Actually, no. The United States was the hardest place, which is why in 2020, we made that decision, for multiple reasons, to return home back to the UK. It's the land of opportunity, but it's slipping by. They've got so much resource. They've got so much of everything. But there's such disunity in my perspective and in my lived experience. But if you're an American, you might see it differently. If you're someone, an immigrant who got naturalized there, you may see it differently. But in my personal experience, and that's all I can talk to, was that this is a deeply divided country that's frittering away the opportunity to truly be the greatest country in the world. And they talk about being the land of the free. I used to joke with my Canadian colleagues because I was in Detroit, so you look north. You look south, sorry, you look south to Detroit, which is the only place...and I use this as my pop quiz question of it's the only place in America, I believe, that if you look south, you're looking at Canada. But I used to say that's the land of the freer because truly, I actually felt more strict in the United States than living in Russia or in China. You get told what to do. It's just done in a different way in the United States, and that's just my experience. But look, I lived there for three and a half years. It's not a lifetime by any stretch of the imagination. And it was a time when I guess many of the people I love and care about in America probably said, "Kevin, you are here at the worst time to be here. CHAD: [laughs] Right. KEVIN: And this is not the real America." But unfortunately, that was the America I experienced. So it was the hardest place for me. CHAD: I think that that's actually where America gets into trouble is by continually saying, "This isn't the real America." And you can only say that for so long when we've been saying it for a long time. And so I think it's important to ask ourselves, isn't that actually the real America then? Sort of to your point of the VCs and not changing the demographics despite saying something is a problem and working at it over time. And, oh, we've made a percentage point of progress means that you're not really working on the problem or willing to change because you're probably not focused on the right things. KEVIN: Yeah. And you think about the United States of America it's funny, the house I'm living in is 172 years old. It is older than so many places in the States, and yet I remember someone saying, "Oh, you're living in a 1950s house. That's a really old house." [laughs] It's like, it's almost a new build in the UK. America has this rich history to still create. CHAD: And I think that's what lends us to being more aggressive when it comes to investment and more willing to take risks. So like you said, there are tons of opportunity and some tons of potential at the same time as there are probably real big problems. KEVIN: You know that saying about the rising tide benefits all? CHAD: Yeah. KEVIN: I think in VC, it has had a negative connotation because from the industrial gaslighting is yeah, there has been an increase in funding, but everybody got it. So the percentages of allocation didn't change. But also, America has that opportunity, in my view, to really rise everybody. Just take the education system; it should be the greatest education system in the world, bar none. The resources are there, the talent is there, the people are there, and they're hungry for that education. Heck, people from other countries scramble to get America to have a piece of that. But why is it not? And I think it's because there's too much protection of certain groups and an unwillingness to be more open. But the more open you are to the different ideas, to the different viewpoints, to then finding the best place for us, I think it presents America with a huge, huge opportunity. So, you know, I'm probably [inaudible 29:14] [laughter] because really you should be the best. You say you're the biggest and the best, but people don't care about the size of your army, really. The everyday Joe in the UK, we don't think about that. I grew up thinking America was paved with gold, and I got there, and it's like, this is not quite the way I grew up. [laughs] CHAD: Well, inside of America, there's a lack of that perspective, though, because when you can self believe that that's the case. And because you don't have a perspective on what it's actually like elsewhere, it's very easy to say, "Oh, we are the best." KEVIN: Yeah, that's true. And look, who cares what country is the best in reality? [laughter] Sometimes I like to think I've got these three children. Right now, as children, they don't care. They just want to get on with people and have more friends and more relationships, and that's what they care about. But at some stage, I don't know where it starts or how it starts; we lose that. We lose that. But you see that in founders, this ability to get past that, and they're trying to address it. At least the founders I'm trying to support they're really trying to break past these barriers of we're different, and we need to remain different to we are different. Let's embrace that. And how can we use that to our advantage? CHAD: Yeah. And I think that to take a step back, I'm a big believer in continuous improvement and always trying to be better. And I think that when you find yourself in a position where you've stopped doing that, it's no good for anybody. And it's very clear to me that there's the next frontier for improving ourselves, and the companies that we work at, and the world in which we live is all of these things that we've talked about today. And so I really wish you the best with Diversity-Xand with what you're trying to do. And please keep in touch, and we should talk further, maybe offline after this recording, about how we might be able to help more. KEVIN: Brilliant. And thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm so, so grateful. Thank you. CHAD: Kevin, if folks...you said your email address before, but do you want to say it again or other places where people can reach out to you? KEVIN: Yeah, so it's kevin.withane that's W-I-T-H-A-N-E @gmail.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm very visible there. CHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a transcript of this entire episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Kevin Urrutia is Founder of Voy Media, a “growth marketing agency” focused on helping marketing executives grow their online businesses – but not from the “ground up.” Voy Media does not help companies that want to get started in online marketing, build clients' businesses, or act as any client's marketing team. Instead, the focus is on scaling successful client companies and taking them to the next level, moving them from 6 to 7 to 8 figures in monthly sales . . . and doing it fast. These clients already know what they need to do to build a business and they're doing it. They already have mature systems and processes in place for emailing prospective buyers and getting online content and reviews. Voy takes this collected information, breaks it down, and uses it to feed the creation of new ads, new videos, and new images for clients' social media – their already existing Facebook pages, Google Ads, and LinkedIn, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, and TikTok accounts. Kevin's background is in computer programming. During college, he started a web development consulting company. After he graduated, he moved to Silicon Valley to work for Mint.com (Intuit). In that fevered e-commerce boom era (global e-commerce sales topped $1 trillion in 2012, up 21.9% from the previous year), “I kept building things. I kept going to hackathon startup events.” Frustratingly, all that “building” and networking did not result in sales.  Then Kevin discovered “marketing.” He researched SEO, found it “interesting,” and concluded that “Everything around you is really marketing, but it's great marketing when you don't think it's marketing.” He jumped to a startup called Zaarly, and then moved to New York and did what none of his programming buddies wanted to do: He started starting his own businesses. His buddies wanted “jobs.” He wanted to own something bigger and was willing to take the risk. Kevin started an online-scheduled cleaning company. and thereafter, a number of e-commerce companies, learning the lessons on switching products to drive sales and growing teams that he, today, passes on to his clients.  In this interview, Kevin discusses how the recent iOS update, iOS 14, allows individuals to turn off tracking and limits a lot of ad options that used to be available for advertisers. Now, instead of looking at the individual platforms to get information, companies must ask the questions: “How much revenue did we make from new customers this week? How much did we spend on ads? What is the ratio between new customer revenue with ad spend?” Kevin says things are more “fluffy” in one sense, but companies do have a better grasp on their profitability. He says, “People are actually building brands again, versus like, ‘Hey I just want to make quick buck online.'”  That's a good thing, he believes, because “Building a real business takes years.” Companies need to “reinvest into the branding. You got to reinvest into ads, copy, photography.” Kevin can be reached social platforms and on his agency's website at: https://voymedia.com/ where you will find case studies, courses, and Kevin's blog. Transcript follows: ROB: Welcome to The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Kevin Urrutia, founder at Voy Media, based in New York City. Welcome to the podcast, Kevin.  KEVIN: Hey, Rob. Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.  ROB: Great to have you on the cast. Why don't you start off by giving us an intro to Voy Media. What do you want to be known for?  KEVIN: Voy Media . . . we're growth marketing agency. Pretty typical, but the difference between us and other agencies is my background is in computer science programming. We'll talk about a little bit more of that later on. The way we help founders is by we come in to help you scale. We're not here to help you get started in online marketing. That's a different type of agency. We're more here for founders or other marketing executives that want help to grow their online business with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Creatives are also a big part. We're doing that now with the whole new iOS update and we're seen trying to switch around and again restructure agency to fit the market's needs too. ROB: (Laughs) I see. So, this is not, “I have an idea. I want to get the word out there.” This is “I know who my customer is but help me because I still don't know how to reach them.” Is that where you play?  KEVIN: It's a little bit after that, too, where you already spent some money and now you're saying, “Hey I have a marketing person in-house but we still need help because we want to scale” and you don't want to bring somebody new on again. So, I tell people all the time, we used to do what we said before . . . “Hey, you have a brand new idea. Let's help you” . . . and then it turned out that this was just a different type of client or customer that we didn't want to educate about what marketing was. It was just very difficult. I see some agencies do that. It's like I'm prey to you. Those clients, the ones that pay you that much, they're calling you every single day to give you an update. I think it's so funny, but like you've probably heard before, the more they pay you the less they call you. It's so true. ROB: That's amazing. What is it about a business at that stage that aligns with your talents? What's the playbook that starts to make sense at that stage that maybe isn't available sooner?  KEVIN: I think the playbook that's available is that these businesses already have systems on how to get content, how to get reviews, how to do all that stuff – just feeds our creative team to make new ads, to make new videos, to make new images for their social media, for their Facebook page. It's not like we're saying, “Hey, you should send an email out to get customer reviews.” They already are doing this, so their mindsets are already in this – “Yep, this is what we need to build a brand or a company.” It's just a different business shift of a person and for us, it's less pulling, like “Hey, we need this from you.” It's more like “Yep, this is already in our pipeline. You're gonna get it next week.” If we can, we get user-generated content every week – We just get that in the Slack channel – “Hey, guys. Here's this week's content.” They already have a process in place and we're here to help them. I tell people all the time – a lot of times business owners, in the beginning, want us to basically build their whole business for them. I say, “No, I'm your marketing team. I'm not here to build your company.”  ROB: This is our customer. What do you think? KEVIN: Yeah. I'm like, “I don't know. You have the product.” They're like, “Isn't your team supposed to do that?” Yes, but like, “I don't know exactly what you're doing” :Hey, it looks like this product. . . .like customers are complaining about this. Are you going to switch your product?” They're like, “No.” I'm like, “All right then. If your sales aren't going up, then you need to do something.” So, for me too, this comes from not just doing marketing, but because I've also had my own e-commerce companies too. So, I've had to switch products, I've had to grow a team, and that's where for me, it's like, I see you sometimes, I mean before like we work with founders, I'm like, “Hey, people are clearly complaining about this. Why aren't you switching or doing something?” And at least for me when I had my outdoor gear company – we recently sold it -- we made three to four versions of a trekking pole based on customer feedback because that's what you do as a business. You iterate over and over again. Sometimes people say, “Hey, this is a perfect product.” I'm like, “Is it a perfect product? You need to switch things around if people are complaining about it.” So, I don't know, for me, I'm trying to find people that, like I tell people all the time, the best people that we work with are people that have done it once, failed, and like, “Okay now. I know what to do because everybody has been through the trenches in the fire.” ROB: Sure. What it sounds like they have is they have a steady pipeline of content that speaks to their audience but . . . I think a lot of people's natural format is more long-form and not marketing copy, right? So, you can kind of take what they have, break it down, atomize it, align it to different channels, test some things, and then layer on a set of known tactics that work when you have legitimate content.  KEVIN: Exactly. That's what it is. It's like, “We're here to use tactics to help you grow versus help you figure out these tactics are. We can help somewhat but there's only so much time we can tell clients, “Hey, you need you see.” and they're like “Oh? why? I don't know how to go get it.” I'm like. “Send an email out.” They're like, “Oh okay I forgot this week.” I'm like, “All right. (sighs) I can't press this send button for you.” ROB: Right? Step 1 is send an email this week. Then come back and talk to me.  KEVIN: So yeah. I get it. I think for me, our agency – at least I tell people all the time – it just depends on what type of company or business you want to build. There's people that want to be in that zero to 1 stage, where it's like, “Hey, we're gonna build this system and process for you. But for me, I just don't want to be doing that. So, we're saying, we're shifting more towards – “Hey you have something and you have some sort of team. We're gonna come here implement, help you and supplement you and be that agency.” ROB: Sure. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention, I heard you mention briefly iOS 14. Obviously, the kind of individual targeting, opt-outs, all that is changing how ads run, how ads are tracked. What has been changing for you and how are you responding or suggesting people respond when it comes to the options that are no longer available to them due to those changes?  KEVIN: I think iOS 14 . . . it's interesting. I see both. For us, bad side for a lot of agencies like us is . . . I tell people, like we were, you could track everything. So, our incentives are very like, “Hey look! We spend more money. We make more money.” We see revenue going up, we can spend more money.” Because it's tracked and now that has really affected our ability to scale as an agency and again clients as well because they were spending 15k a month, now they're spending 20k, and they're just like, “Well, the results are even worse and we're not getting any sales.” So, I think, what has changed a lot is the way we're tracking because now we're so used to just looking at the platforms, Google, Facebook, say, “Yep, this is a 1 to 1 or at least pseudo 1 to 1, where right now it's even worse. I don't even know where it's coming from. So, tracking itself has changed and, at least for us, the way we're doing it now is like what people should have been doing or at least sort of had done. Which is like, “Hey, this week, how much revenue did you make from new customers? How much did we spend on ads? What is the ratio between new customer revenue with ad spend?” It's a bit more fluffy, but at least you're saying that, yes, you are profitable. So, more daily profitability sheets/ weekly profitability sheets or even monthly – like your P&L. Go into your account each month and say, “Yep, reconcile all the expenses. Were we profitable?” Great, business is still good. That is something that, at least before iOS 14, people didn't really know, which is interesting. I think any business, you have to know this stuff. People are getting a little more savvy with these numbers. At the same time, something that I've seen shift is that – I think it's good going back with my background. I think now people are actually building brands again, versus like, “Hey I just want to make quick buck online.”  ROB: Right.  KEVIN: That was something that we saw so much because it was so easy to track, like, “Hey, you like pet stuff, right? Let me make this pet niche store and for the next 3 months let me make 20K.” It wasn't like a brand where, right now, similar to any business like you probably seen . . . Building a real business takes years.  ROB: Right.  KEVIN: And there's gonna be years where you don't make money. Everybody had this weird mentality like, “Hey, if I spend a thousand bucks, I need to make 5k this month” . . . or else “You suck – not me.” This is not how you build a company. You got to reinvest into the branding. You got to reinvest into ads, copy, photography . . . I just saw this crazy, quick-flipping of businesses where ten years ago, you were actually okay, “I'm gonna mess with your cake(?) and I'm gonna make this thing a big brand and try to build something. I think that's coming back again, which is great because it's gonna be entrepreneurs that I think want to build true businesses for the long-term.  ROB: Right on. I think I may have heard this. I may have heard it wrong, but there's also an increasing challenge with now with the attribution window. Is that right? That there's actually a short, you can't, I think it's like used to be able to see if . . . so you ran an ad and somebody bought in thirty days. Mow you get what 7?  KEVIN: Yeah. You got like 7 or even like 1 day. Sometimes it's just so much tougher? Yeah.  ROB: So, it is more empirical. It's, “I spent money, am I making money? I increased my spend a little bit ago, am I making more money now?” It's trickier.  KEVIN: It's definitely trickier, like I said. I think you now need to have the stomach for it, like, “Hey, you're hoping to make money,” and I get both sides. You know there's always the side of like, “Hey, I'm not a VC-funded company.” I'm like, “Yeah, I know.” Most people aren't, but there's a reason why companies like Facebook and Google – obviously those are outliers, but other companies such as them that spend . . . like Uber, right? literally in business for ten years and every year lose money, right? There's a reason why it's like – again, that's a bigger scale but you sometimes need to think yourself as a smaller scale, say, “Hey, you're in this for the long run.” You're like, “There's a reason why everybody knows Uber, like, “Hey I'm gonna get a cab because all the brand equity of the advertising.” So, a lot of times you've probably seen business owners don't want to do that because like, “No I need to make money.” I'm like, “Yes, you should make money – but there is something to be said for reinvest into your business and saying, “Hey, I'm gonna do this as ‘quote-unquote' my life's work. It doesn't do your life, but like the next 5 to 10 years, right.  ROB: Sure. I think it's helpful. I think people are starting to get this understanding a little more – to know when you're doing brand marketing and to know when you're doing performance marketing because getting those things twisted is also a real source of misunderstanding if you . . . KEVIN: Oh yeah, there's definitely performance marketing everything and there's also brand marketing. A lot of people just want to do performance marketing but you still need to have great Instagram accounts, great Twitter accounts, great social media people. I tell people all the time, like, “Why do I need a social media manager– they don't make any money?” – But you still want people interacting with your community, talking to them. You know, some of the best companies out there do both performance and branding. Branding is one of those things that you see it when you see it. But when you're doing it, you don't see it. It's tough to put into a balance sheet but you know it when you see it. It's like Uber, you know? Lyft, you know? So it's hard. I know that for sure. ROB: And when sometimes it's even just a negative signal you're never going to see right? Somebody looks up your company. They look up your Twitter or your Instagram or your Facebook or your LinkedIn and if there's nothing there or if it's really dead, people judge that. I mean, they do. I do.  KEVIN: I know I do. I always think marketing is so funny because, like I tell people, “What do you do when you look up a business?” I know you're gonna go like look up reviews. I know you're gonna look at Instagram and then I'm like, “How come for your company you don't think you need to do that?”  ROB: Yeah.  KEVIN: They hate when it's like, “Oh, yeah. I don't know what I'm saying.” They feel dumb but I just hate saying, “I'm like you. You do this same thing, too. So why don't you do for your business? I'm like “Hey if . . . I also tell people this. I'm on calls. I'm like, “If you weren't on your website, would you buy?” And if it's a no, then, “Why do you think other customers would buy?” – So like, “I don't know.” ROB: Take us back a little bit in time here, Kevin. Where did Voy Media come from and what led you to jump off this company-building cliff.  KEVIN: Voy Media is my newest company that I started. Basically, my quick background is computer science. I was a programming major in upstate New York . . . Binghamton. All throughout college I knew I wanted to do my own startup – since I was17 – it's something I wanted to do for a long time. So, in college, I started doing one tiny bit which is my web building. I was 19 or 20. I had 2 employees working on web projects there. We were just getting customers through Craigslist – so developing stuff. For me it was mostly like I've always wanted to build a startup. After college I was like, “Okay I gotta go to Silicon Valley.” I went to work for Mint.com as a programmer and then I went to work for another startup there for 3 years. During this time, I wanted to build stuff so I kept building things. I kept going to hackathon startup events. One of the things that happened for me during this time – I have always was in this mindset of like, “Hey, if you build it, they will come.” Because, hey, if you have a great product people just naturally find you. That was the thing that programmers in Silicon Valley just said to each other. Like “Hey, if people build something great, people will just find it” is one hundred percent not true looking back – but the mindset was very different back then. So, I kept building stuff. Eventually, I was like, “Man, how come I'm not getting any customers?” And then, I started looking up “what is marketing.” I was like, “Okay, this is actually a thing.” That's when I started learning more about marketing. My initial foray into marketing was SEO, like black-hat, world-affiliate marketing, CPA stuff. That was for me very interesting. When I first discovered it, I was like, “Oh, this is very interesting.” The reason why I found it so interesting because these affiliate guys were getting these twenty dollars like, “Hey, you can make twenty dollars off this widget that you sell,” so they had to sell it for a hundred twenty bucks to make profit. So, I was like, “Oh, these guys are using cutting edge tactics.” You would join these underground forums or Skype groups of people saying like, “Hey, try this marketing message.” I was like, “Whoa!” I didn't realize marketing is like that – it was like performance for me. I always thought marketing was this branded thing. I didn't know there's this other type of marketing that was purely based on sales. That's what got me at least . . . at that point I wasn't doing ads. It opened up my eyes to this marketing world. I was like, “Oh, everything around you is really marketing, but it's great marketing when you don't think it's marketing.” Behind the scenes, there's guys pulling the levers that's doing the marketing. So, it's like one of those like realizations that you have. I was like, “Okay, this is kind of what I need to do anyways.” I came back to New York because I missed my family. I started my cleaning company called Maid Sailers and here, for this cleaning company, is where I did almost all the marketing. I did SEO. I did reviews, blogging, PPC, Yelp ads, kind of everything. I did that for about a year-and-a-half. I wanted to keep growing it but people that have a service-based company – even some like Moy media – service-based businesses can only grow as you grow people – humans, right? So, it's human capital intense kind of business, which is great to get started. So, I think I tell people, times like these are great businesses start. But if you want to grow it, I didn't think I could grow it that big. So, then I started ecommerce because at that time too I saw all my friends are doing FBA, Amazon, I was like, “I got to jump into this, right?” It's one of those things with FOMO -- I got to do it. Then I did my Montem, which is my outdoor gear company. This was more scalable because, at the time – it was much easier back then with e-commerce products like Amazon. You're selling. Then, again for Montem, when we did e-commerce, I learned so much more. This is kind of where I first started doing more Facebook ads, Google ads, review blogger reviews. We were like number 1 on Wirecutter, so we were able to do partnerships. We did retail. We were pitching retails with the events – kind of like everything involved and, at least for me, that's why I like entrepreneurship in startups because I like all this stuff I just described. If I worked for somebody, I would never be able to do it all. Because you're only stuck in 1 thing where it's like a founder you could just say, “Okay, I'm going to do it all like,” and you figured it out somehow, which is either exciting or not exciting for some people. For me, it's like, “Oh, this is awesome.” I went to China 3 times up to my factories. So that's kind of where the concept of Voy Media came – because I was doing this e-commerce stuff. And then I was like, “Okay, I want to help other founders achieve success,” – that's the inkling, the idea of Voy Media. Of course, what we are now is very different than what I thought initially because you iterate your business based on what you see. But that's how Voy Media started.  ROB: How did you navigate away from those assumptions of the business, from those predispositions that you had? I mean, candidly, folks who come from a software developer background a lot of time have a hard time taking their hands off the keyboard. They want to be writing code, right? So how did you kind of navigate to the truth of the business instead of where you started?  KEVIN: I always tell people that one of the main reasons why I always wanted to do a startup and it's something that I've always like wanted to do since I was 17. But one of the things when I was in Silicon Valley, at least for me when I was 21 or 22 – I don't know, I was probably 23 at the time – very naïve. I was looking at a lot of my friends in the space, like the programmers there, and they would just talk about stuff and I was like, “Oh, wow! These guys are really smart. I don't think I'll ever be that good. I need to do something else because these guys are just awesome programmers.” My roommate, his name was Adam. We worked at the same company and he would talk about a concept. I'm like, “Dude, I have no clue how you just got that!” I thought I was smart but that's kind of what for me I'm like, “I got figure out something else in my life because I want to make money but, clearly, you're on another level.” I was like, “Let me just do business stuff and that's kind of it for me.” Another relationship for me was that I would talk to him or talk to other people like, “Hey, why don't you start a company. You are really smart,” but they're like, “No, I just want to be an employee.” That made me think, “Hey, there's guys like me that want to have a company and then I can hire guys like him that don't want to take the risk,” and you're gonna hire these super smart people that are gonna work for you and that's where the realization came to me, “Hey, I don't have to be the smartest but there's a lot of smart people that don't want to take the risk I want to take, and they could just work for me. Yeah!”  ROB: Yeah, so that's a good lesson to pick up along the way. As you reflect on the journey so far in building the business, what are some other key lessons you might want to go back and just tell yourself if you were starting over? Some good advice.  KEVIN: Good advice is so obvious. But like hiring people – I think once you feel an inkling that a person's not going to work out, you really got to let them go because it's a drain on the company and drain on yourself. That's probably the one people always say but it's also the hardest because people with emotions and working with them. But that's really tough. I think it's getting better, at least for service-based companies, it's just getting really better at vetting the people you work with just because it's a really personal relationship and, if you already feel like they're gonna be a very demanding, upstart, they're probably gonna be demanding the whole relationship and it's just gonna be a battle to please them. That's something I tell my sales team all the time. Like any red flag. I could see an email and I'm like, “This is a red flag. I can tell already this is gonna be a terrible partner to work with. Let's not even sign them,” and they're like, “Why?” I'm like. “Trust me. This one word they said, I pretty much know what they're looking for.” I think another one that's super important, I think for me at least, it's like, “I couldn't do my theme(?) companies. Every company I've done it, it's been with a partner.” You need somebody there to talk to, to help you with the problem, because like any business they're gonna be high highs and low lows. Sometimes you need somebody else to talk to them about it because sometimes you can't tell your employees how you're feeling because then it's like, “I work for you,” and then they're like, “Oh well. If the founder's feeling this way, I can't feel that way either.” Having a partner that's on the same like equal level as you or around that area – you can like tell them the real issues and how you're feeling, so I think a partner is gonna be great. And again, it helps distribute the work depending on what you're doing and how you're splitting the stuff with the business because it's a lot of stuff to do.  ROB: Yeah, is that somebody that you had early in the business or is that somebody you brought in? Is that somebody outside the business for you? What's that look like?  KEVIN: For Voy Media, it's Wilson. I've known him since college. We've literally known each other for over ten years and we've going back to everything before like one tiny bit the Ruby on Rails company. He was my partner there, too, in Silicon Valley. When I moved there, he was in college and I just graduated. And I was like, “Yo, Wilson! I'm moving.” He's like, “I'll move there with you.” So I've known him for a long time. I tell people it really depends. There's these relationships are very . . . You need to be careful because there's a level of trust you already have so you can't really get mad at each other. But again, it's careful. Sometimes things go wrong, you get mad at each other but you know that “Hey, we're doing it because we both” . . . I I think you both need to know the goal of the business. So, it's like, “Hey, this is why I'm like upset with you. It's not that I'm upset about you personally, it's because I'm upset about the business and we both want to achieve this and we're not achieving it together. How do we get there?” So, it's a careful relationship, like any couple. Things are upsetting us. Why? Because we both want to be happy. How do we fix that issue so it's not like I'm attacking you personally? ROB: Right. And if you're partners on that, you got to solve it one way or another. You can't stay grumpy and you can't stay stuck in the mud. It can go sideways pretty quick. So, you had Wilson there really early on in the business.  KEVIN: Yeah.  ROB: What was another kind of key inflection point that you noticed, where you felt like you had to level up the capabilities of the firm? The people in the firm, the processes – were there any kind of chokepoints so far that you had to kind of reevaluate in a significant way? KEVIN: Yeah. I mean like honestly, at least for Voy Media, one of the biggest things that we made was hiring an operations person to really help clean up everything at the agency. Because from reporting to hiring, I think that really helped us. I think it's one of those things where . . . I consider one of those positions where you want to be so involved sometimes. But you need to bring on someone that can do the work for you, that's smarter than you, that you can give complete ownership. I think, with any business, that's probably the hardest part – giving up some part of the business to somebody else to run and just trusting them. That's probably some of the best things that we've done because now the agency has grown quicker. With that comes a few points. One is cash load. You have to have the money to hire somebody good or can you take a little hit on income? That way you know that this person is going to hopefully pay off in six months. As a bootstrap founder, you think about these things but hiring people like that is super helpful.  ROB: Where was the business in terms of size, however you think about it, when you made that operations move?  KEVIN: We were probably like 5 to 6 people. Now we're about 30 people. So, it's definitely grown a lot more now. But yeah, hiring those people – like higher level people are helpful because there's only so many people that are doing the work. Of course, you need those people as well. But you need people thinking about strategy, thinking about processes and systems and that's why it's helpful and again, at least for me, it's the biggest . . . honestly, one of the biggest things too is thinking about yourself as the founder, as the person running the company. What do you want to be doing? I don't want to be doing all this stuff. I want to hire somebody else to do it because that doesn't give me energy. It drains me. I want to be doing what gives me energy, which is podcasting, sales – that's exciting for me. So, I know I'm gonna do a better job and I know I'm gonna be reading books about it whereas like – “Hey, accounting, – I don't want to look this up.” Find somebody else to do it because it's going to drain you and that's going to affect your whole day.  ROB: Wow. That all makes sense. As we look ahead for Voy Media – when you look at either what the company's doing or what will be necessary in the types of marketing that you do – what's coming up that you're excited about?  KEVIN: What we're excited about right now I think, again going back to what I said before, we're working with founders building these great brands. Better for us to work with founders out in the long run – before I was quick. Like, “Hey this month sucked. You guys suck.” It's like, “Oh god, this is a stressful relationship.” It's more like, “Hey, let's build something big and great together,” and again a big thing for us too. It's gonna be the creatives. People are really open to having great images, great creatives. People are more open to trying new things now because they're seeing that Facebook isn't the only platform. There's now Facebook, there's TikTok, there's Instagram stories, like there's all this new stuff out there. It's exciting again to make content. I see that as exciting. Where before people were just like, “I just want to do Facebook ads. Okay.” “Well, TikTok.” “No, I don't know that platform.” Where people are, I think . . . I don't know . . . there's a shift there where people are more open to new stuff now.  ROB: Yeah, it's certainly a shift. It's certainly interesting in terms of openness. How do you think about the difference between what should be legitimately out of bounds for a particular brand versus what is their being flexible in a way that that is actually necessary? People have their experimental budgets. It can't all be experimental but some of it has to be.  KEVIN: I think it just depends what level you are. I think, for example, when we work with consumer companies, all the consumer platform is always great – TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook of course. But if you're a consumer company, Linkedin doesn't make sense because that's more like professional. So, there are certain industries where it's very clear cut like, “Hey, if you're a SaaS or software or marketing company, you should be on LinkedIn because that's where quote – unquote professionals are. We think about it like that. As you get bigger and you're scaling your business, you need to think about platforms outside – like billboard ads are something that's more branded but there's a lot of ways to access those now in like easy platforms stuff. Some of my friends do that because they raise money and they say it's not effective. But I think something that brands need to think about right now is that, before, it was “you just sell online.” Now I'm seeing a big shift of online plus retail as well. So, getting into the Walmarts, the Targets, the Amazon's, the stores – everything like that is so important because it's more omnichannel versus like, “Hey I'm only direct to consumer.” I'm seeing that big shift now, too.  ROB: Right on. When you say the billboard stuff is more accessible, what does that actually look like? Can I go like buy a billboard? Can I buy it where I want it? Can I set what time of day I want to see a digital like, I don't know . . . What can I do?  KEVIN: I forgot the exact website. I'll try to find it later. But yeah, basically you can do exactly that. I think it's ClearView, one of those company that owns it. They now have a website similar to what you said where you can just say like, “Hey, for 100 bucks I want an ad near Times Square.” It makes it super simple and easy. You can just upload your creatives. Before it was kind of what you were saying . . . even subway ads now in New York City, you have to spend 30K minimum to get like one car of subway ads, where it should be self-serve, right? “Okay, I want one car, one creative . . . how much is it gonna cost? All right?” Subway ads are harder because you actually need to print the thing, where some of these new billboards are digital. So yeah, you could do it. I forgot the exact platform but it's cool. I've seen some friends do it just for experimental. It kind of works but it's one of those things where you just try it out and see.  ROB: Sure. I've thought about it. There's some ways . . . maybe it's too creepy . . . but you can almost get account-based marketing. You know a bunch of people for this company come this way, light up this billboard during the commute, leave it shut down during lunchtime – like who knows, right? KEVIN: Yeah. It's funny you're saying that because there's this company . . . they were a remote job board, right? Facebook announced, I think a few months ago, that like, “Hey, starting in 2022, everybody needs to go back to work in the office.” So, then this company took out ads on that highway to say, “Hey, don't want to go back to work? Apply for new jobs here.” But exactly what you're saying. You can know where these things are, they'll pinpoint the area, and then you can do account-based marketing that way. People do this when they launch a Walmart or Target in the city. There will be billboards around there so say, “Hey, look! We're now available at Target down the street!” So, you can do that type of stuff.  ROB: Very interesting. So much to do. So much to learn. Still, Kevin, congrats on the journey so far. Thank you for coming on and sharing with us as well. I wish you well and I know our audience will enjoy what you had to share. KEVIN: Thank you Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.  ROB: Thanks, Kevin take care. Bye 

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Interview with Long Time Member Kevin Farrell (LA 1471) Transcript: Steven Jack Butala: Steve and Jill here. Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill Dewitt: I'm Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from Sweets. That's still Arizona. Steven Jack Butala: Today we have the greatest treat of all. We have a long time member, Kevin Farrell with us who is also Kevins- Jill Dewitt: Does consulting for us- Steven Jack Butala: Yeah, he does land academy consulting, he's a moderator in a couple of our forums on land investors specifically, and just always a treat to talk to Kevin because he brings a certain serious expertise, but also a certain sense of... I can't describe it. Well, you'll see it in a minute. This type of sense of humor, and this whole thing. Jill Dewitt: Welcome! We are Steven and Jill. Together, we've been buying and reselling land since the nineties. Steven Jack Butala: Our data-centric approach leaves our buyers asking, "How can you sell it so cheap?" Jill Dewitt: Here on the land Academy show- Steven Jack Butala: We answer that, and more. Steven Jack Butala: Kevin how have you been since the last Land event? Kevin: I've been well. I mean, the main word is "well" because we've gone through this crazy pandemic and you know, I'm glad I'm in the land business because I want to tell people that it has not affected my ability to acquire land or my ability to sell it, which is amazing. Jill Dewitt: I'm so happy. You know, I want to pause and say thank you, by the way, for all that you have done for us and our other members and the consulting and the hours and the time and the welcoming new people that you put in for us. I really, really appreciate it and I know it makes a difference and people connect with you. Steven Jack Butala: Yeah. Jill Dewitt: Thank you. Kevin: Yeah, thanks Jill. I appreciate it. It's I still enjoy doing it, so that's why I'm in there every day. Steven Jack Butala: Yeah. That's the same as for us here. I stopped telling people that the pandemic hasn't negatively affected us because they just... you never know how it's going to go. I don't want to, I don't want to make it seem like I'm bragging or anything, but we were just all really lucky. I can't think of anything else. Just purely lucky to be in this business when this thing rolled around. Jill Dewitt: That's true. Kevin: Yeah. Jill Dewitt: Right. Kevin: Yeah, thanks to this I don't [crosstalk 00:02:07]. Jill Dewitt: Catch us up. Steven Jack Butala: Perfect example. Jill Dewitt: Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, well, [crosstalk 00:02:15]. Jill Dewitt: What kind of deals are you doing? Catch us up in your world. Kevin: Yeah, I've been doing my version of the business, which is kind of laid back. When I speak with people and we're doing consulting calls, they want to know how much mail we send out, and what kind of targets to make. I said, "Well, I may not be your role model. I'm 64 years old, and if I work two days a week, that's a full schedule. I'm pretty good with that". We put ourselves in a position, financially, where our needs are not really that high, so I'm all about being comfortable with what I'm doing. I have also been trying to find my niche. I think all of us in this land business, we're always kind of trying to figure out where's our niche either geographically or property type. Whether it's desert or commercial or infill, et cetera, et cetera. I've learned some things. I've had some real good lessons the past year or two. Kevin: I would say the five anchor lesson is a big one that I want to pass on to experienced and new people. There's just something magic, Steve you've said it before. People want five acre properties. I don't care really where you are. If you're selling, what I call, small properties, if you're doing five acre properties that phone's going to ring more than if you had one to two acre properties or even 10 acre properties.

Interview with Long Time Member Kevin Farrell (LA 1471) Transcript: Steven Jack Butala: Steve and Jill here. Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill Dewitt: I'm Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from Sweets. That's still Arizona. Steven Jack Butala: Today we have the greatest treat of all. We have a long time member, Kevin Farrell with us who is also Kevins- Jill Dewitt: Does consulting for us- Steven Jack Butala: Yeah, he does land academy consulting, he's a moderator in a couple of our forums on land investors specifically, and just always a treat to talk to Kevin because he brings a certain serious expertise, but also a certain sense of... I can't describe it. Well, you'll see it in a minute. This type of sense of humor, and this whole thing. Jill Dewitt: Welcome! We are Steven and Jill. Together, we've been buying and reselling land since the nineties. Steven Jack Butala: Our data-centric approach leaves our buyers asking, "How can you sell it so cheap?" Jill Dewitt: Here on the land Academy show- Steven Jack Butala: We answer that, and more. Steven Jack Butala: Kevin how have you been since the last Land event? Kevin: I've been well. I mean, the main word is "well" because we've gone through this crazy pandemic and you know, I'm glad I'm in the land business because I want to tell people that it has not affected my ability to acquire land or my ability to sell it, which is amazing. Jill Dewitt: I'm so happy. You know, I want to pause and say thank you, by the way, for all that you have done for us and our other members and the consulting and the hours and the time and the welcoming new people that you put in for us. I really, really appreciate it and I know it makes a difference and people connect with you. Steven Jack Butala: Yeah. Jill Dewitt: Thank you. Kevin: Yeah, thanks Jill. I appreciate it. It's I still enjoy doing it, so that's why I'm in there every day. Steven Jack Butala: Yeah. That's the same as for us here. I stopped telling people that the pandemic hasn't negatively affected us because they just... you never know how it's going to go. I don't want to, I don't want to make it seem like I'm bragging or anything, but we were just all really lucky. I can't think of anything else. Just purely lucky to be in this business when this thing rolled around. Jill Dewitt: That's true. Kevin: Yeah. Jill Dewitt: Right. Kevin: Yeah, thanks to this I don't [crosstalk 00:02:07]. Jill Dewitt: Catch us up. Steven Jack Butala: Perfect example. Jill Dewitt: Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, well, [crosstalk 00:02:15]. Jill Dewitt: What kind of deals are you doing? Catch us up in your world. Kevin: Yeah, I've been doing my version of the business, which is kind of laid back. When I speak with people and we're doing consulting calls, they want to know how much mail we send out, and what kind of targets to make. I said, "Well, I may not be your role model. I'm 64 years old, and if I work two days a week, that's a full schedule. I'm pretty good with that". We put ourselves in a position, financially, where our needs are not really that high, so I'm all about being comfortable with what I'm doing. I have also been trying to find my niche. I think all of us in this land business, we're always kind of trying to figure out where's our niche either geographically or property type. Whether it's desert or commercial or infill, et cetera, et cetera. I've learned some things. I've had some real good lessons the past year or two. Kevin: I would say the five anchor lesson is a big one that I want to pass on to experienced and new people. There's just something magic, Steve you've said it before. People want five acre properties. I don't care really where you are. If you're selling, what I call, small properties, if you're doing five acre properties that phone's going to ring more than if you had one to two acre properties or even 10 acre properties.

The conversation covers:  Why Kevin helped launch Single Music, where he currently provides SRE and architect duties. Single Music's technical evolution from Docker Swarm to Kubernetes, and the key reasons that drove Kevin and his team to make the leap. What's changed at Single Music since migrating to Kubernetes, and how Kubernetes is opening new doors for the company — increasing stability, and making life easier for developers. How Kubernetes allows Single Music to grow and pivot when needed, and introduce new features and products without spending a large amount of time on backend configurations.  How the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted music sales. Single Music's new plugin system, which empowers their users to create their own middleware. Kevin's current project, which is a series of how-to manuals and guides for users of Kubernetes. Some common misconceptions about Kubernetes. Links Single Music Traefik Labs Twitter: https://twitter.com/notsureifkevin?lang=en Connect with Kevin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/notsureifkevin Emily: Hi everyone. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and my day job is helping companies position themselves in the cloud-native ecosystem so that their product's value is obvious to end-users. I started this podcast because organizations embark on the cloud naive journey for business reasons, but in general, the industry doesn't talk about them. Instead, we talk a lot about technical reasons. I'm hoping that with this podcast, we focus more on the business goals and business motivations that lead organizations to adopt cloud-native and Kubernetes. I hope you'll join me.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and today I am chatting with Kevin Crawley. And Kevin actually has two jobs that we're going to talk about. Kevin, can you sort of introduce yourself and what your two roles are?Kevin: First, thank you for inviting me on to the show Emily. I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit about both my roles because I certainly enjoy doing both jobs. I don't necessarily enjoy the amount of work it gives me, but it also allows me to explore the technical aspects of cloud-native, as well as the business and marketing aspects of it. So, as you mentioned, my name is Kevin Crawley. I work at a company called Containous. They are the company who created Traefik, the cloud-native load balancer. We've also created a couple other projects, and I'll talk a little bit about those later. For Containous, I'm a developer advocate. I work both with the marketing team and the engineering team. But also I moonlight as a co-founder and a co-owner of Single Music. And there, I fulfill mostly SRE type duties and also architect duties where a lot of times people will ask me feedback, and I'll happily share my opinion. And Single Music is actually based out of Nashville, Tennessee, where I live, and I started that with a couple friends here.Emily: Tell me actually a little bit more about why you started Single Music. And what do you do exactly?Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. So, the company started out of really an idea that labels and artists—and these are musicians if you didn't pick up on the name Single Music—we saw an opportunity for those labels and artists to sell their merchandise through a platform called Shopify to have advanced tools around selling music alongside that merchandise. And at the time, which was in 2016, there weren't any tools really to allow independent artists and smaller labels to upload their music to the web and sell it in a way in which could be reported to the Billboard charts, as well as for them to keep their profits. At the time, there was really only Apple Music, or iTunes. And iTunes keeps a significant portion of an artist's revenue, as well as they don't release those funds right away; it takes months for artists to get that money. And we saw an opportunity to make that turnaround time immediate so that the artists would get that revenue almost instantaneously. And also we saw an opportunity to be more affordable as well. So, initially, we offered that Shopify integration—and they call those applications—and that would allow those store owners to distribute that music digitally and have those sales reported in Nielsen SoundScan, and that drives the Billboard Top 100. Now since then, we've expanded quite considerably since the launch. We now report on sales for physical merchandise as well. Things like cassette tapes, and vinyl, so records. And you'd be surprised at how many people actually still buy cassette tapes. I don't know what they're doing with them, but they still do. And we're also moving into the live streaming business now, with all the COVID stuff going on, and there's been some pretty cool events that we've been a part of since we started doing that, and bands have gotten really elaborate with their live production setups and live streaming. To answer the second part of your question, what I do for them, as I mentioned, I mostly serve as an advisor, which is pretty cool because the CTO and the developers on staff, I think there's four or five developers now working on the team, they manage most of the day-to-day operations of the platform, and we have, like, over 150 Kubernetes pods running on an EKS cluster that has roughly, I'd say, 80 cores and 76 gigabytes of RAM. That is around, I'd say about 90 or 100 different services that are running at any given time, and that's across two or three environments, just depending on what we're doing at the time.Emily: Can you tell me a little bit about the sort of technical evolution at Single? Did you start in 2016 on Kubernetes? That's, I suppose, not impossible.Kevin: It's not impossible, and it's something we had considered at the time. But really, in 2016, Kubernetes, I don't even think there wasn't even a managed offering of Kubernetes outside of Google at that time, I believe, and it was still pretty early on in development. If you wanted to run Kubernetes, you were probably going to operate it on-premise, and that just seemed like way too high of a technical burden. At the time, it was just myself and the CTO, the lead developer on the project, and also the marketing or business person who was also part of the company. And at that time, it was just deemed—it was definitely going to solve the problems that we were anticipating having, which was scaling and building that microservice application environment, but at the time, it was impractical for myself to manage Kubernetes on top of managing all the stuff that Taylor, the CTO, had to build to actually make this product a reality. So, initially, we launched on Docker Swarm in my garage, on a Dell R815, which was like a, I think was 64 cores and 256 gigs of RAM, which was, like, overkill, but it was also, I think it cost me, like, $600. I bought it off of Craigslist from somebody here in the area. But it served really well as a server for us to grow into, and it was, for the most part, other than electricity and the internet connection into my house, it was free. And that was really appealing to us because we really didn't have any money. This was truly a grassroots effort that we were just—we believed in the business and we thought we could quickly ramp up to move into the Cloud. So, that's exactly what happened though. Like, we started making money—also, this was never my full-time job. I started traveling a lot for my other developer relations role. I worked at Instana before Containous. Eventually, the whole GarageOps thing just wasn't stable for the business anymore. I remember one time, I think I was in Scotland or somewhere, and it was, like, two o'clock in the morning at home here in Nashville, and the power went out. And I have a battery backup, but the power went out long enough to where the server shut down, and then it wouldn't start back up. And I literally had to call my wife at two o'clock in the morning and walk her through getting that server back up and running. And at that point in time, we had revenue, we had money coming in and I told Taylor and Tommy that, “Hey, we're moving this to AWS when I get back.” So, at that point, we moved into AWS. We just kind of transplanted the virtual machines that were running Docker Swarm into AWS. And that worked for a while, but up until earlier this year, it became really apparent that we needed to switch the platform to something that was going to serve us over the next five years.Emily: First of all, is ‘GarageOps' a technical term?Kevin: I mean, I just made it up.Emily: I love it.Kevin: I mean, it was just one of those things where we thought it was a really good idea at the time, and it worked pretty well because, in reality, everything that we did, up into that point was all webhook-based, it was really technically simple. But anything that required a lot of bandwidth like the music itself, it went directly into AWS into their S3 buckets, and it was served from there as well. So, there wasn't really any of this huge bandwidth constraint that we had to think about, that ran in our application itself. It was just a matter of really lightweight JSON REST API calls that you could serve from a residential internet connection if you understand how to set all that stuff up. And at the time, I mean, we were using Traefik, which version 1.0 at the time, and it worked really well for getting all this set up and getting it all working, and we leveraged that heavily. And at that time in 2016, there wasn't any competitor to Traefik. You would use HAProxy or you use NGINX, and both of those required a lot of hand-holding, and a lot of configuration, and it was all manual, and it was a nightmare. And one of the cool things about Docker Swarm and Traefik is that once I had all the tooling set up, it all sort of just ran itself. And the developers, I don't know around 2017 or '18, we had hired another developer on the staff. And realistically, if they wanted to define a new service, they didn't have to talk to me at all. All they did was create a new repo in GitHub, change some configuration files in the tooling we had built—or that I had built—and then they would push their code to GitLab, and all the automation would just take over and deploy their new service, and it would become exposed on the internet, if it was that type of a service, it was an API. And it would all get routed automatically. And it was really, really nice for me because I really was just there in case of the power went out in my garage, essentially.Emily: You said that up until earlier this year, this was more or less working, and then earlier this year, you really decided it wasn't working anymore. What exactly wasn't working?Kevin: There were a few different things that led us to switching, and the main one was it seemed like that every six to twelve months, the database backend on the Swarm cluster would fall over. For whatever reason, it would just—services would stop deploying, the whole cluster would seemingly lock up. It would still work, but you just couldn't deploy or change anything, and there was really no way to fix it because of how complicated and how I want to say how complex the actual databases and the data that's been stored in it because it's mostly just stateful records of all the changes that you've made to the cluster up until that point. And there was no real easy way to fix that other than just completely tearing everything down and building it up from scratch. And with all the security certificates, and the configuration that was required for that to work, it would literally take me anywhere between five to ten hours to tear everything apart, tear everything down, set up the worker nodes again, and get everything reestablished so that we could deploy services again, and the system was accepting webhooks from Shopify, and that was just way too long. Earlier this year, actually we crossed into, I want to say in January, we had over 1400 merchants in Shopify sending us thousands of orders every day, and it just wasn't acceptable for us to have that length of downtime 15, 20, 35 minutes, that's fine but several hours just wasn't going to work.Our reputation up until that point had been fairly solid. That issue or incident hadn't happened in the past eight months, but we were noticing some performance issues in the cluster, and in some cases where we were having to redeploy services two, three times for those services to apply, and that was sort of like a leading indicator that something was going to go wrong pretty soon. And it was just a situation where it was like, “Well, if we're going to have to go offline anyways, let's just do the migration.” And it just so happened that in April, I was laid off from my job at Instana and I was fortunate enough to be able to find a new job in, like, a week, but I knew that I wanted to complete this migration, so I went ahead and decided to put off starting the new job for a month. And that gave me the means, and the opportunity and the motive to actually complete this migration. There were some other factors that played into this as well, and that included the fact that in order to get Swarm stood up in 2016, I had to build a lot of bespoke tooling for the developers and for our CI/CD system to manage these services in the staging and production environment, handling things like promotion and also handling things like understanding what versions of the services are running in the cluster at any given time, and these are all tools that are widely available today in Kubernetes. Things like K9s, or Lens, or Helm, Kustomize, Skaffold, these are all tools that I essentially had to build myself in 2016 just to support a microservice environment, and it didn't make sense for us to continue maintaining that tooling and having to deal with some of their limitations because I didn't have time to keep that tooling fresh and keep it up-to-date and competitive with what's in the landscape today, which are the tools that I just described. So, it just made so much sense to get rid of all that stuff and replace it with the tools that are available today by the community and has infinitely more resources poured into them than I was ever able to provide, or I will ever be able to provide even as a single person working on a project. The one that was sort of lingering in the background was the fact that we have here recently started doing album releases, and artists are coming to us where they will sell hundreds of thousands of albums within a very short period of time, within several hours, and we were reaching the constraints of some of our database and our backend systems to where we needed to scale those horizontally. We had, kind of, reached the vertical limits of some of them, and we knew that Kubernetes was going to give us these capabilities through the modern operator pattern, and through just the stateful tooling that has matured in Kubernetes that wasn't even there in 2016, and wasn't something that we could consider, but we can now because the ecosystem has matured so much.Emily: So, yeah, it sounds like basically you were running up against some technical problems that were on the verge of becoming major business problems: the risk of downtime, and the performance issues, and then it also sounds like some of the technical architecture was limiting the types of products, the types of services that you could have. Does that sound about right?Kevin: Yeah, that's a pretty good summary of it. I think that one of the other things that we had to consider too was that the Single ecosystem, like the Single Music line of products has become so wide and so vast—I think we're coming up on five or six different product lines now—and developers need an 8 core laptop with 32 gigs of RAM just to stand up our stack because we're starting to use things like Kafka and Postgres to do analytics on all this stuff, and we're probably going to get to the point within the next 18 months to where we can't even stand up the full Single Music stack on a local machine. We're going to have to leverage Kubernetes in the Cloud for developers to even build additional products into the platform. And that's just not possible with Swarm, but it is with Kubernetes.Emily: Tell me a little bit about what has changed since making the migration to Kubernetes. And I'm actually also curious, the timeframe when this happened is really interesting, and you talked a little bit about offering these streaming services for musicians. I mean, it's an interesting time to be in the music industry. Interesting, probably in both the exciting sense and also negative sense. But how have things changed? And how has Kubernetes made things possible that maybe wouldn't have been possible otherwise?Kevin: I think right now, we're still on the precipice, or on the leading edge of really realizing the capabilities that Kubernetes has unlocked for the business. I think right now, I mean, the main benefit of it has been just a overwhelming sense of comfort and ease that has been instilled into our business side of the company, our executive side, if you will. The marketing and—of course, the sales and marketing people don't really know that much about the technical challenges that the engineering side has, and what kind of risk we were at when we were using Swarm at the time, but the owner did. There's three co-owners of the company, it's myself, Taylor, and Tommy. And Taylor, of course, is the CTO, and he is very well have the risk because he is deeply invested in the platform and understands how everything works. Now, Tommy, on the other hand, he just cares, “Is it up?” Are customers getting what their orders—are they getting their music delivered? And so, right now it's just there's a lot more confidence in the platform behaving and operating like it should. And that's a big relief for the engineers working on the project because they don't have to worry about whether or not the latest version of their service that they deployed has actually been deployed; or if the next time they deploy, are they going to bring down the entire infrastructure because the Swarm database corrupts, or because the Swarm network doesn't communicate correctly like it missed routes. We had issues where staging versions of our application would answer East-West traffic—like East-West request traffic that is supposed to go in between the services that are running in the cluster—like staging instances would answer requests that were coming from production instances when they weren't supposed to. And it's really hard to troubleshoot those problems, and it's really hard to resolve those. And so right now it's just a matter of stability. The other thing that is enabling us to do is handle the often difficult task of managing database migrations, as well as topic migrations, and, really, one-off type jobs that would happen every once in a while just depending on new products being introduced or new functionality to existing products being introduced. And these would require things like migrations in the data schema. And this used to have to be baked into the application itself, and this was really sometimes kind of tricky to manage when you start talking about applications that have multiple replicas, but with Kubernetes, you can do things like tasks, and jobs, and things that are more suited towards these one-off type activities that you don't have to worry about a bunch of services running into each other and stepping on each other's feet anymore. So, this, again, just gives a lot of comfort and peace of mind to developers who have to work on this stuff. And it also gives me peace of mind because I know ultimately, that this stuff is just going to work as long as they follow the best practices of deploying a Kubernetes manifest and Kubernetes objects, and so I don't have to worry about them breaking things per se, in a way in which they aren't able to troubleshoot, diagnose, and ultimately fix themselves. So, it just creates less maintenance overhead for me because as I mentioned at the beginning of the call, I don't get paid by Single Music, unless of course, they go public or they sell. But I'm not actually a full-time employee. I'm paid by Containous, that's my full-time job, so anything that allows me to have that security and have less maintenance work on my weekends is hugely beneficial to my well being and my peace of mind, as well. Now, the other part of the question you had, as well, is in terms of how are we transitioning, and how are we handling the ever-changing landscape of the business? I think one of the things that Kubernetes lets us do really well is pivot and introduce these new ideas and these new concepts, and these new services to the world. We get to release new features and products all the time because we're not spending a ton of time having to figure out, “Well, how do I spin up a new VM, and how do I configure the load balancer to work, and how do I configure a new schema in the database?” The stuff, it's all there for us already to use, and that's the beauty of the whole cloud-native ecosystem is that all these problems have been solved and packaged in a nice little bundle for us to just scoop up, and that enables our business to innovate and move fast. I mean, we try not to break things, but we do. But for the most part, we are just empowered to deliver value to our customers. And for instance the whole live-streaming thing, we launched that over the course of, maybe, a week. It took us a week to build that product and build that capability, and of course, we've had to invest more time into it as time has gone on because not only do our customers see value in it, we see value in it, and we see value in investing additional engineering and business marketing hours into selling that product. And so again, it's just a matter of what Kubernetes, and the cloud-native ecosystem in general—and this includes Swarm to some extent because we could not have gotten to where we did without Swarm in the beginning, and I want to give it its proper dues because, for the most part, it worked really well, and it served our needs, but it got to the point where we kind of outgrew it, and we wanted to offload the managing of our orchestrator to somebody else. We didn't want to have to manage it anymore. And Kubernetes gave us that.Emily: It sounds like, particularly when we're talking about the live streaming product, that you were able to build something really quickly that not only helped Single's business but then obviously also helped a lot of musicians, I'm assuming at least. So, this was a way to not just help your own business, but also help your customers successfully pivot in a time of fairly large upheaval for their industry.Kevin: Right. And I think one of the cool things that we experienced through the pandemic is that we saw a fairly sharp rise in sales in general in music, and I think it kind of speaks to the human nature. And what I mean by that, is that music is something that comforts people and gives people hope, and also it's an outlet. It's a way for people to, I don't want to say, disconnect because that's not really what I mean, but it gives them a means to experience something outside of themselves. And so it wasn't really that big of a surprise for us to see our numbers increase. And, I mean, the only thing that kind of did surprise—I mean, it's not a surprise now in retrospect, but one of the things that we observed as well, as soon as all the George Floyd protests started happening across the United States, the numbers conversely dropped, and at that point, we realized that there was something more important going on in the world. And we expected that and we were… it was just an interesting observation for us. And right now, I mean, we're still seeing growth, we're still seeing more artists and more bands coming online, trying to find new ways to innovate and to try to sell their music and their artwork, and we love being a part of that, so we're super stoked about it.Emily: That actually might be a good spot for us to wrap up, but I always like to give guests the opportunity to just say anything that they feel like has gone unsaid.Kevin: Well, I mean, one of the things I do want to talk about a little bit is some of the stuff that we're doing at Containous as well. As a developer advocate, I think one of the things that I really enjoy in that aspect is that this gives me an opportunity to work closely with engineers in a way in which—a lot of times, they don't have an opportunity to experience the marketing and the business side of the product, and the fact that I can interact with my community and I can work with our open-source contributors and help the engineers realize the value of that is incredible. A few things that I've done at Containous since I've joined is we are working really hard at improving our documentation and improving the way in which developers and engineers consume the Traefik product. We also are working on a service mesh, which is a really cool way for services to talk to each other. But one of the things that we've recently launched two that I want to touch on is our plugin system, which is a fairly highly requested feature in Traefik. And we launched it with Pilot, which is a new product that allows the users of Traefik to install these plugins that manipulate the request before it gets sent to the service. And that means our end-users are now empowered to create their own middleware, in essence. They're able to create their own plugins. And this allows them really unlimited flexibility in how they use the Traefik load balancer and proxy. The other thing that we're working on, too, is improving support for Kubernetes. One of the surprises that I had when migrating from Traefik version 1 to Traefik 2, when we did the Single migration to Kubernetes, was once I figured out the version two configuration, it was really easy to make that migration, but it was difficult at first to make the translation between the version 1 schema of the configuration into the version 2. So, what we're working on and what I'm working on right now with our technical writer, is a series of how-tos and guides for users of Kubernetes to be empowered in the same way that we are at Single Music to quickly and easily manage and deploy their microservices across their cluster. With that, though, I mean, I do want to talk one more thing, on maybe some misconceptions about cloud-native and Kubernetes.Emily: Oh, yes, go ahead.Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that I hear a lot of is that Kubernetes is really hard; it's complex. And at first, it can seem that way; I don't want to dispute that, and I don't want to dismiss or minify people's experience. But once those basic concepts are out of the way, I think Kubernetes is probably one of the easiest platforms I've ever used in terms of managing the deployment and the lifecycle of applications and web services. And I think probably the biggest challenge is for organizations and for engineers who are trying to adopt Kubernetes is that in some ways, perhaps they're trying to make Kubernetes work for applications and services that weren't designed from the ground up to work in a cloud-native ecosystem. And that was one of the things that we had the advantage of in 2016 was even though we were using Docker Swarm, we still followed something which was called the ‘Twelve-Factor App' principle. And those principles really just laid us out for a course of smooth uninterrupted, turbulence-free flying. And it's been really an amazing journey because of how simple and easy that transition from Docker Swarm into Kubernetes was, but if we had built things the old way, using maybe Packer and AMIs and not really following the microservice route, and hard coding a bunch of database URLs and keys and all kinds of things throughout our application, it would have been a nightmare. So, I want to say to anybody who is looking at adopting Kubernetes, and if it looks extremely daunting and technically challenging, it may be worth stepping back and looking at what you're trying to do with Kubernetes and what you're trying to put into it, and if there needs to be some reconciliation at what you're trying to do with it before you actually go forth and use something like Kubernetes, or containers, or this whole ecosystem for that matter.Emily: Let me go ahead and ask you my last question that I ask everybody which is, do you have a software engineering tool that you cannot live without, that you cannot do your job without? If so, what is it?Kevin: Yeah, I mean, Google's probably… [laughs] seriously, it's one of my most widely used tools as a developer, or as a software engineer, but in terms of, like, it really depends on the context of what I'm working in. If I'm working on Single Music, I would have to say the most widely used tool that I use for that is Datadog Because we have all of our telemetry going to there. And Datadog gives me a very fast and rapid understanding of the entire environment because we have metrics, we have traces, and we have logs all being shipped there. And that helps us really deep dive and understand when there's any type of performance regression, or incident happening in our cluster in real-time.As far as what my critical tooling at Containous is, because I work in Marketing and because I work more in an educational-type atmosphere there, one of the tools that I have started to lean on heavily is something most people probably haven't heard of, and this is for managing the open-source community. It's something called Bitergia. And it's an analytics platform, but it helps me understand the health of the open-source community, and it helps me inform the engineering team of the activity around multiple projects, and who's contributing, and how long is it taking for issues and pull requests to be closed and merged? What's our ratio of pull requests and issues being closed for certain reasons. And these are all interesting business-y analytics that is important for our entire engineering organization to understand because we are an open-source company, and we rely heavily on our community for understanding the health of our business.Emily: And speaking of, how can listeners connect with you?Kevin: There's a couple different ways. One is through just plain old email. And that is kevin.crawley@containous—that's C-O-N-T-A-I-N-O—dot U-S. And also through Twitter as well. And my handle is @notsureifkevin. It's kind of like the Futurama, “Not sure if serious.” I mean, those are the two ways.Emily: All right. Well, thank you so much. This was very, very interesting.Kevin: Well, it was my pleasure. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me, and I look forward to listening to the podcast.Emily: Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned just a little bit more about The Business of Cloud Native. If you'd like to connect with me or learn more about my positioning services, look me up on LinkedIn: I'm Emily Omier, that's O-M-I-E-R, or visit my website which is emilyomier.com. Thank you, and until next time.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

James: Hi, listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Valued Real Estate Investing Podcast. Last week, we had Rich Fishman(?) with 8,000 units. Almost half of which he owns by himself and he had bought over 20 years across five to six different states. And he gave us an outstanding overview of what happened during the crash of 2008. Was it true that everybody needs a roof above their heads? And that's what a lot of gurus are telling us in multifamily or is it true that multifamily has the lowest default rate? You will definitely need to listen to that podcast. Because he went through the whole downturn with all his multifamily(s) and came back up after the cycle and he gave a lot of awesome perspectives. Today, we have Kevin Bob. Hey Kevin, do you want to introduce yourself? Kevin: Hey James, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I'll give you the quick overview for sure. So, I have been investing full time in real estate going for on 20 years now and I got started like a lot of folks did with single-family investments. It was just what my mentor was doing. It's what he was good at and what he taught me and so I didn't reinvent the wheel. I did exactly what he told me to do and that evolved into multifamily investments and other types of commercial real estate. That led me up to the crash of 2008. That's a very challenging time. It kind of was reborn in 2011, 2012 and was introduced then to mobile home parks. Which is what we focus on today. So, for the past seven years now, we've been solely focused on mobile home communities. We own parks in thirteen different places throughout the US and that's our niche of choice as of now. James: Awesome. Awesome. I mean, Kevin is being very humble. So, just to give you guys some background when I was in my W2 job, one of the first podcasts that I listened to was Kevin's podcast. I mean, the podcast is called Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow With Kevin Bob and it's an awesome podcast. It focuses a lot on commercial real estate and I really learned a lot when I was in W2 and I was listening to it in the car. Are you still doing the podcast, Kevin? Kevin: I am. Absolutely. I do two podcasts. So, I do the Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow Podcast and then about three and a half years ago I thought it was a good idea to start a second podcast as if I wasn't busy enough already. And I started the Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast, which is specific to that topic. James: Got it. Got it. Kevin: James, I remember the first day we met. Not to interrupt you but I always joke with you every time I see you because I got a weird memory. I forget a lot of things but I remember the odd things and I do those free Friday calls. I've been doing it for like five years now. And I remember that's how you and I originally met. It was during one of those 30-minute calls on a Friday and I don't recall why I remember this part of our call but I had been making lunch with my Bluetooth in while we were talking about a multifamily deal that you were taking down in San Antonio, Texas. James: Yeah, it was my second deal. I was buying 174 and have you found it on our yellow letter marketing campaign. It is very interesting because when you had your podcast, you announced it that you're giving thirty minutes of your time and I was like, ‘Wow, that's awesome. I'm going to talk to a celebrity.’ Right now, I do offer like fifteen minutes of my time for whoever wants to talk to me. You just have to send me an email at jamesatachieveinvestmentgroup.com. We're not big celebrities.  We're just normal people. Kevin: I get as much value from those calls as the person on the other side. That's how I like to think and you just never know who you're going to meet on the other end of the phone, right? I mean, that's how I that's how you and I met. You just never know and so I think that you have to keep that normalcy in your life and I enjoy those calls. I’ve met a lot of great people on the way. James: Surprisingly, I still remember the day you called me and the moment you called me. I'm not sure why but that was like probably five, six years ago. And I don't remember my other calls. Kevin:  Yeah, yeah. I have been on for five years. Yeah. James: Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. So, I mean, I want to dive deeper into mobile home parks. I can see you have like a 150 million real estate transaction. Is it all mobile home park? How many parks do you own right now? And can you give those kinds of details? Kevin: No, we don't have. Our current portfolios are not 150 million. That's just that's like my transaction for the principal. You know, investments over the years. James: Thanks for being honest, Kevin. Because a lot of people misuse those big numbers to do their marketing and then we find out they don't have anything. They're probably on a passive investor and that's really awesome that you're being very upfront with that. Kevin: Yeah, I’m the majority principal in the parks we own as far as on the GP side and things like that. So, we'll get that clarity out there as well. James: Awesome. Kevin: We're not really sellers. So, to answer your questions about what we own today. We've been teetering around like the 2,000 mark. We go above it. We go below. We have a park that going to be closed in a week and a half. We sold a park earlier this year and then we're going be selling one in probably February next year. That's in contract currently. We got one that we're closing on in 45 days, which is 215 lots and so we keep teetering around this 1900-2000 mark. We've really been evolving our portfolio by selling off some of the smaller properties and by selling off some of the properties that we don't really have an interest in scaling in a particular marketplace or maybe it's just one that just doesn't fit our model moving forward. I don't know how else to answer it other than that. So, that's where we're at today. We're really long-term cash flow investors, though. That really is our business model. It just as far as the selling side of things I like to take advantage of an opportunity when it arises. That's one thing I did not do before 2008. I never would sell anything and it came back to bite me at that point. So, I am not a seller. However, I will sell when the timings right the price is right. James: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that experience. Because I heard about that in your podcast and so you are doing single-family homes before 2008 and you were doing very well. Kevin: And multifamily but mostly single-family was our focus. That was our business model. It's what we were very competent at. We had acquired a few hundred multifamily doors over the years almost by accident. We didn't really put much effort into it because deals would just come our way like small multifamily stuff. Thirty-six units forty-eight-unit type properties that we just kind of threw into our rental pool. However, the biggest part of our model and the thing that took the most time and energy was a single-family. You know, buying the single-family rental properties and managing a portfolio across multiple different counties was just very inefficient. And it's unfortunate because I think we just got very complacent with our model. You know, we were we felt we were really good at it and we never took the time to be honest with ourselves about how inefficient that was and that we should have just taken our efforts and converted them over to multifamily at that given moment. I think that we would have fared through the downturn a lot better. The single-family properties… it wasn't really the single family that sunk us during the downturn. It was a whole mixture of ingredients. You know, Florida was ground zero for the crash. A lot of our properties, not only did they lose within a year but they also were upside down. Our leverage point on the front side was originally somewhere in between the 65% to 68% range. So, we were very low leverage. Most of them were upside down underwater within a year. Another big thing in Florida that really was a major impact on us was there were a lot of speculative single-family builds happening back then. I don't know if you remember back in that heyday. I guess you could say that was back when a new build property in like Vegas or Phoenix or Southwest Florida would literally flip three times before it was ever even occupied. Before it was ever finished. It was crazy. There was like thousands of new home builds happening in Southwest Florida for a population that wasn't really coming in. So, the big nail in the coffin for us back then was a lot of these builders that had these properties who weren't selling and they started renting them out. And so now, they started pulling the populations away from our rental properties and they offered better incentives. Because what they had was a new product. So, we had an occupancy issue. We were under wonder water value and like it's just a perfect storm and it was ugly. It wasn't fun at all. And the banks at that point weren’t willing to work with us. This was like a year within entering into this downturn. The banks didn't have loss mitigation departments. They weren't prepared for this and so we struggled with a majority of our lenders to even do work out deals or loan modifications. James: Yeah, I read some books about how the lenders can be nasty during the downturn but now they're super nice. Kevin: I think they got a lot more flexible. Because they had to. In the first year of the downturn, no one knew how bad it was really going to get. It was like ‘Are we at the bottom? Are we at the bottom?’ I feel like that question was asked for many years before it's like, ‘wow, it's 2011 and it's still messed up like things are still fairly bad.’ You know, I think it took the bank's a while to realize that and they even put the infrastructure in place to manage all these defaults. It was a disaster for the banks as well. I mean, they had more defaults than… they had to build entire departments within their companies to manage this onslaught of default. So yeah, it was a challenging time for everybody. James: Do you think you could have done better if you had a lot of non-recourse loans? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as far as my personal assets being attacked and things of that nature absolutely. And I think there is also a lot more flexibility with the non-recourse lenders to work with a borrower because they have quite a bit of leverage. You know, another thing that hurt us pretty badly on our part was a lot of our apartment properties and a lot of the commercial loans and a lot of times we would package up like eight to ten or twelve single-family properties and put a commercial loan on and it takes money out. That was kind of our model. A lot of that debt was shorter-term recourse debt. It was five years,you know, either resets or five-year balloons, twenty-year [inaudible10:23]. What happens we didn’t default on multifamily. However, after all the credits were going bad on the single-family stuff and we started having issues there. We couldn't get new loans when the time came due for them a couple of years later. We couldn't get any debt in place. We had to sell things for basically fire sale prices and give them away. We basically either gave it back to the bank or did some minor workouts, did short sales or had to sell at fire-sale prices. It is what it is. I learned a lot from that period and things move on and I've learned a lot from it. And I think I'm a stronger investor and a better investor nowadays because of it. James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you brought up three or four cities that are very, very high growth right now.  We’re at the late stage of this cycle. Which is similar to 2008 before that. They are Phoenix, Las Vegas and Florida, right. So, do you think we're in the same stage right now because they are one of the highest growth rental rates for multifamily? I would say I'm not sure how much you would be able to compare multifamily at that time.    Kevin: I think the reasons behind the crash back then are a little different. I mean, back then the lenders were so loosey-goosey. Because anyone could get a loan and I mean anyone. Even a waiter who just started the job yesterday. Who had no provable income could get a loan on a property. You know that that's one thing that hasn't gone back to the way it used to be, lending restrictions are still very tight. So, I don't think that we have that fear. I'm not an economist and by no means am I an expert here but I don't think our fear should be related to anything that was similar to back in the 2007, 2008 crisis and what caused that. So, I'm not sure what it could be. I know that there's a huge demand for multifamily. There’s a pent-up demand for supply still in a lot of these markets based on population growth. I think that the bigger risk lies and like A class stuff or like some new developments as far as like, you know, the game of musical chairs. It’s about who's ultimately left holding the bag. I think that what you do as far as like BNC grade apartment complexes are very similar to our business and that as long as you provide a clean, safe and high-quality product at affordable prices. There's always going to be a demand for it no matter what happens. I'm a firm believer in that and that's played out time and time and time again and that you were making mention of the last guest you had on. I'm going to give listen to the show but what was his take? You know, what did he tell you was the ultimate outcome of his multifamily holdings through that downturn? James: Yeah, it was very hard for him during that downturn. I mean, He has to cut down a lot of it and if I remember correctly the default rate was pretty high. It was like almost 8% where a lot of people did lose their property to the banks. Kevin: I wonder if that was because they were over leveraged but I'm not talking about him though. I was talking about the operators. See that's it leading up to that recession and the last time people were overpaying for apartment complexes and if you recall one of the big the big hot trends were buying an apartment and doing a condo conversion. So, you saw people buying apartment complexes for valuations that had no relative nature to the actual NOI that was in place. It was all based on a pro forma exiting out as individual condos and a lot of those condo things failed miserably. Anyway, how did the guy you interviewed fare? James: I think he was not talking about condo conversion. He was just talking… Kevin: I mean as far as multifamily investments. How did he fare? How did his investment go? James: He did say that it was pretty bad for him and for a lot his friends and who were buying at that time. Kevin: Specific markets or…? James: Across the country and he has been down twenty years right now. I mean, he has like a thousand units right now. The key thing is I mean everybody says ‘everybody needs a roof over their head.’  But he's a says that people become creative on how to get a roof above that they’re head. They double up. They live in their basement. So, it's not like everybody's going… Kevin: Yeah. Well, I think another thing that changes is  the quality of your prospect changes as well. You know, people lose their jobs. People miss payments on their credit cards.  They get bad credit. They get into this revolving cycle or downward spiral. And so, although everyone does need a roof over your head, the quality of that prospect might change. It might actually deteriorate over time but what you can really get to fill that unit which a lower quality resident typically is going to equate in a higher turnover, rate higher expense and maintenance costs associated with running that property. So, I think that there are other factors that are derivative of a downturn  even though everyone does really need a roof over their head. James: Do you think the optimism that you had or the entire market had before 2008 crash like in 2006…  I'm sure everybody was optimistic. Nobody knew about the subprime mortgage. Because nobody really knew in detail, right? Do you think that the optimism that people had during those few years before the crash is the same as now? Kevin: There's some Deja vu that I've had and I think maybe a lot of that has to do with even just watching like social media feeds and things of that nature. A lot of the kudos and congrats are given to folks just because they like buy a property and that’s only a part of it. James: They just started running. They haven’t done the marathon yet. Kevin:  It not what it looks like today but it’s can you execute the plan accordingly? What does it look like three years from now? Because you bought something doesn't mean that you've won yet. It's easy enough to get on the front side. So, that's a different form of that optimism. James: Social media has increased the FOMO syndrome. Kevin: Yeah, that's it. Success seems to be equated on social media to actually just doing a deal. Whatever it means to get the deal done: overpaying for it, over raising investor capital, putting capital your investors capital risk. I mean buying bad markets and I think that was a very similar sentiment that was shared by a lot of people back prior to the crash. ‘If we don't buy now, there's like anything left. We’re going to get priced out of every market and then will never own real estate. Let's buy whatever we can. Let's get that 95% loan.’ So again, the lending standards have not gone back to what they were then. Which was a big cause of that crash. But I do think that there's some Deja vu that I've had.  You know, the FOMO thing… the fear that you’re missing out, that's real. We've seen things be much more competitive over the past year. We bought nine properties last year and we wound up buying two this year. So, we did get side-tracked a little bit this year with building a property management company. And we that's another discussion but even then, I don't think we would have bought more than maybe three or four properties. If that was our sole focus but we're very conservative. I think we had seven or eight deals in contracts that we ended up killing… for various reasons.  There just a lot of hairy things out there and you can make money with hairy deals but you got to really know what you're getting a deal go to. James: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that the experience of going through the crash will make you’re really a conservative person, right? Because people have never gone through it [inaudible17:59] including me. I didn't go through it. So, I didn't know how painful it was, right?  But I do read a lot of publications and try to feel the fear at that time. I mean, you can be too much of an optimist. I'm not so engaged in the height of optimism right now. So, you did single family and you went through this 2008 crash and suddenly you started doing mobile home park. Why that mobile home park asset class and why not go back to the single-family apartments? Kevin: Well, it's a great question. So, I answer the second part of that question first about why not go back to like single family properties. You know, I finally had an internal point of reflection probably like two years after the crash started. There were a couple years where it was pretty challenging to even think about what was happening in my life. So, there were a couple years, I don't like to say that I put my head in the sand and buried it. But somewhere around, 2010 to 2011 I would go through like a reflection point in my life where I tried to look back and just really be honest myself like, ‘what I should have done differently.’ What I ultimately felt went wrong and I came to a quick realization and I kind of knew it back then.  You know, you're comfortable and complacent you know we should have made the switch. Our model is very inefficient with the single-family properties. You know, running multiple maintenance crews and management crews amongst many different counties. You know, having a home here, a home over there, home over there, hundred something that way. It was incredibly inefficient and it was very hard to scale. You know like just going out and trying to buy one by one by one and buying a hundred and twenty, a hundred and fifty, two hundred single family properties is a lot of work. That’s two hundred individual closings. That takes a lot of effort to make that happen. And you'll being honest with myself, I knew that those same efforts could have been multiplied like 10 x but by actually putting that effort into multifamily and that multifamily is much more efficient to operate. It could truly provide that cash flow and help me get back on top much faster than trying to go back into the single-family space. I didn't have an interest in the single-family. It was what I was taught at a young age and I rolled with it and I did really well with it. And then now, I felt more grown-up and it was time to make a big change in my life and I knew multifamily is going be it. And so I went on this exploration journey, knowing that it was going to be multifamily. What I wanted to do, James, I wanted to go back and talk to everyone. I went on a six-month binge of interviewing and talking to everyone I could, locally and on the phone, who have either been in the multifamily and made it through the crash and you'll just get a sense from them how things have changed today?  How the landscape has changed? I always spoke to those who just got their start. You know, what's their perceived notion of the next couple of years? What the lending environment look like? Where are they finding opportunities? Where was the risk? I just wanted to get an update because I basically stepped away for years from real estate. And things had changed over those three or four years, right? And during this period, I was introduced to a guy named Randy through a mutual friend. And Randy had mobile home parks here in Florida. He owned three of them. He had been a banker for thirty years and I like meeting new people. So, I said ‘let's grab lunch. You’re local to me. So, let's grab lunch.’ And we did. I didn't go there with the intent of like, ‘I want to learn about mobile home parks.’ I just wanted to meet someone new who had been quite successful in their life. And that after like a two-hour lunch with Randy I walked away, saying ‘I'm going to buy a mobile home park.’ I need to either prove or disprove all these great things that Randy had to say about this niche and this asset class. And that's what I did. It took me about 12 months.  I bought a park up in Atlanta. We still own it today. It was a small part of a highly distressed Park and I bought that one and then I bought a second one and I bought a third one. I just spent a couple of years of my own money proving the concept. And then ultimately once we proved the concept and went full cycle on a few things. I went out and actually built a business out of it.  Where we started hiring multiple team members and investors into the game and that's where we're at today. James: What were the top three ‘aha’ moments from that discussion with Randy in that one-hour lunch that you had with him? Kevin: Yeah, and this isn't to compare multifamily to mobile home parks. I mean, but this is what he told me. This is how his conversation went with me. He was like ‘You know, the bottom line being C class apartment complex is great. Everyone needs to roof over their head.’ Just like we talked about. Affordable housing is in high demand and that demand… James: And what year was this? Kevin: This is in 2011. James:  2011 which is supposed to be one of the lowest and best times to buy. I guess, right? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely and so he went on to say that one of the big challenges with multifamily that he found in his career, and he wasn't a multifamily guy but from a theoretical standpoint was the turnover and you're turning 50 to 60% of your tenant base every 12 to 18 months. In mobile home parks, he's like, ‘95% of our residents owner their homes and it costs a lot of money for them to move their homes.’ So typically what happens, Kevin, is if they want to sell that home or they want to go somewhere else move. They don't move their homes. They just put their home up for sale and they move and go buy a home somewhere else. And basically, you never lose that lot rent. That lot rent continues to come in day after day and you don't have that down period like you might have an apartment and you don't have to that make-ready costs like you might have an apartment. So, that was one of the big ones. Another big one that really piqued my interest was the just really the barrier to entry and that there's really no new supply coming in the marketplace. You know, municipalities don't like our asset class. It's got a bad stigma attached to it. And so, no new parks being built and so if you find a good quality park in a great market, you don't have to worry about competition coming down the road. It’s not going to happen. It's just not a chance of it happening. James: It's not like a straightaway somebody can just come and build something in front of you. Kevin: Right. Right. Exactly. So, that was a big one. I liked that and then another big thing that he sold me on was just the management side of things. You know when the residents own their own homes you're not maintaining the roof, you’re not maintaining their plumbing, you're not maintaining their electrical. You’re not maintaining anything whatsoever that happens to their unit. They just like a homeowner, they call that vendor. They call the HVC company. They call the roofer. They call the plumber to fix it. You're not in charge of that. Our only requirement is to maintain the infrastructure. So, the roads, the water and sewer lines leading to the houses and the electrical infrastructure and that's pretty much it. And so I was like, ‘Wow, that's interesting.’ So, like low turnover, fairly lower management responsibility and very rarely is there ever a point in time where you have a down unit or a lot that's not paying you rent. So, the fourth, you asked me for three but the fourth big thing that really sold me on it was He's like Kevin there's a lot of first- and second-generation park owners still out there. Either they built these parks or their father built these parks and now they're aging out. All of these parks were built in the 50s and 60s and 70s and these owners are getting very old. You know, like five years ago the statistics were that 85% of Park owners only owned one Park. And so, to me that means they're a mom and pop, right? They're not a big professional or institutional operator. And so, his point that he made was that these individuals have been working these parks not like you or  I, where we run them like a professional company,  but with their bare hands. They are working these things from day to day. And they're either getting old or their health is becoming an issue. They're getting tired and they're aging out of these things at a very fast rate. And so, there's the opportunity to get in and run it like a professional. You know, get markets up to the market rate in the area and run it more efficiently and do a better job of collections and whatever they might be doing wrong there. So, that was a big thing that piqued my interest as well is working through that ‘mom and pop’ generation and finding opportunities that had a lot of meat left on the bone. Those were the big ones he threw at me and many others as well. But those are some of the big ones that just really sold me. I was like, ‘I’ve got to learn more about this.’ James: Yeah, that's awesome. When I learned about mobile home park, I went for like some three-day class and I really learned it. I love it. I mean, it's a really good asset class and I didn't want to do it because I believe in focus. I mean sometimes as entrepreneurs, we are like, ‘Oh, mobile. Oh, that's so cool. The self-storage let's go do this.’ Kevin: Shiny objects. James: And I realized that to be really good at something you have to have focus. So, that's the one thing I wrote in my book, right? Whenever a passive investor chooses your sponsor make sure that your sponsors focusing maximum to asset class. There are so many details in this asset class but with this market being hard a jack of all trades can’t really make money. Kevin: True. James: Some of their mobile home parks are a bit small, right? I mean, it used to be like 3 million for like a hundred parks or something like that. So, we were like all in doing like large deals and we thought, ‘Okay, we're just going to stick with apartments and stay focus and make sure we get good at it.’ So, that's important, I think. And so, at a very high level can you explain how the cash flow is generated in a mobile home park? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty straightforward. You know, we own the entire community and in a perfect world, this is how we’d like to own the community, where we own zero of the home. So, let's just give an example: we have 149 space mobile home park in Buffalo, New York. In that community, we own zero of the homes that are in there. There are 140 of those lots that are occupied with residents. Who again, they own their roof above their head and they pay us on average $428 a month in lot rent. They also pay their water and sewer; you bill it back for the trash usage. So basically, our job in that community is to maintain the roads and make road improvements as necessary. We cut the common areas of the grass. We trim trees throughout the community. Just making sure that the community or the subdivision is up kept and their responsibility is to pay us for the renting of the lot that they're homes are sitting on. That's it. We make money in that manner. That is the sole source of our revenue. Now I’d say, ‘In a perfect world, we don't own the homes.’ Unfortunate, we're not in a perfect world, James, are we? So, we have our portfolio of approximately two thousand lots that we own and it changes every day. In somewhere between two hundred and fifty and two hundred and seventy of the mobile homes and some parks we own zero homes and in other parks around twenty. It just really depends on how that older owner who we bought it from was operating it. And so, our goal with those homes that we own is to get out of the ownership as fast as possible. And so, what that means to us is that we'll go in and we'll do a very nice builder-grade renovation on them. We’ll sure make everything is operating as it should and make them look good and ultimately try to sell them at a breakeven or we'll even lose money on the homes if we can find a cash buyer, who will come in and purchase. Who we know once they own it outright that they will be a very sticky resident and they'll end up staying there for a very, very long time. And so, our goal is really good to get it back to the lot rental model. Because at that point our management and our maintenance responsibilities are incredibly minimal. James: Yeah, let me try to summarize this for the audience. It’s like a parking lot for a car, right? But it’s Just a car that doesn't have a wheel to move. Kevin: We’re the home parking lot specialists. James: You make a lot of money, right? Because I just own the land, right. The earth is one of the best business on earth. Kevin: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. We are definitely a parking lot.  Except the homes are very expensive to move… I don't want to say that's a great thing about our resident base because that's not the best way to put it. But typically we cater to workforce housing. That's what we have. You know, so good hard-working blue-collar folks. And the average single-wide cost about 5-6000 to move and reset in another the community and a double-wide 10-12,000 and the average folks who live in our communities do the average do not have that type of money lying around to move their home but some of them. And so normally, like I said what happens is that they sell it. Just like you would sell a stick-built home. They put it up for sale and someone else buys it and that person comes in and takes over the lot rent responsibility. So, it's a beautiful thing. James: Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. So, just in terms of the lot itself are there any other issues with the city? Or do you just own the whole lot? Kevin: Issues with the city meaning…? James: So basically, you own the entire park. So, that whole thing is an SL real estate, right. Kevin: That's correct. James: The city doesn't own any of the things inside. Kevin: Sometimes, every park is a little different. We have a few communities where the main road going through it is owned by the town or the city and we own the park. So, they maintain that one road. We have other communities where the water company direct build the water and sewer lines. So, when that park was built the local municipality handled the water and sewer and they literally put the lines and they own them. And we're not responsible for water leaks or anything like that. In most communities, we own the lines but there are some communities that are just anomalies. They are kind of stand alones, where we don't have to maintain them. Every park is different but normally, we own everything. For the most part, we own everything in the park and we have to maintain it. James: So, do you get a lot of depreciation because you just own the land? Compared to like multifamily? Kevin: You do. You do. You know, we did a bunch of cost ex studies last year and we were actually pretty shocked. In fact, Tom Wheelwright from Rich Dad Advisors… I didn't know that he's good friends with the person who does our cost ex studies. He personally reached out to me because he had never looked at a study from a mobile home park before and she shared one of ours with him. And he's like, ‘You got to come to my show. I'm actually baffled at the amount of depreciation that you guys able to gain.’ So, the infrastructure… So, all the improvements in the land. Most of the value of that property because we're not buying the homes. Most of the value is in the improvements of the properties. Because a lot of our property that we're buying it’s not like a path of progress. I mean, the dirt itself isn't worth the money. It's the infrastructure that's there that is really worth the money. And so I don't want to just off the cuff share with you some of the cost ex studies but it's a fifteen-year depreciation schedule.  And I think we've been able to, on a couple of our deals, depreciate it like upwards of 60% of the actual purchase price within the first year. So pretty significant. James: [inaudible34:57] the bonus depreciation. Kevin: With the bonus depreciation. James:  Got it. Got it. So, is it fifteen years or is it similar to like twenty or fifteen? So, mobile home parks[inaudible], okay. That's something that I didn't know. That's very interesting, Okay. That's really good and what about what is the primary value at the mobile home park? Kevin: Yeah, there are a couple big ones. I kind of classify them as like low hanging fruit, middle hanging fruit and then the high hanging fruit. Which is hard to get to. The low hanging fruit for us are simple operational changes. You know, the heavy payroll. We will go in and…  they’ve basically got their family members and their cousins and their brothers on payroll and we'll go in and chop it down to what it really needs to be. That's very low hanging fruit for us. Some other low hanging fruit for us are just your rent increases. There have been many communities that we have purchased that literally have not had a rent increase in fifteen years or twenty years that’s a long, long time. And so that's very low hanging fruit. Medium hanging fruit to us would be controlling the water and water sewer and other utility expenses. So, a lot of these parks when they were built back in, back in the day, water and sewer weren’t expensive utilities. They just weren't. It was included and was factored into the lot rent. You know, the infrastructure was new back then. So, there weren't leaks or wasn't waste or anything like that. Over time the infrastructure gets older and leaks that happen. People tend to abuse water. Water and sewer are expensive in most parts of the country. And that's normally a very large line on the PNL expense statement. And so, we'll go and we'll basically buy individual water sub-meters. They’re pretty advanced meters that are digital and have remote reads. And then we will install them to a lot and will essentially start building the residents back for their own usage. Proportionately speaking we will do the reads each and every month build them back. So, number one: we'll save anywhere from 20% to 40% of usage because people now get responsible very quickly when have to pay for it. And then they'll all those savings basically good to our bottom line. So, it costs us a little bit of money but typically in a normal-sized Park, we will recoup that entire investment of the water meters within like 12-14 months. It's pretty quick. And then the high hanging fruit of the value-add side is infilling of new homes on to vacant lots and so a lot of communities that we own they might have some vacant lots of them. Some more than others. So, I'll give an example: we buy a mobile home parks 100 lots in size. It's got eighty that are occupied with trailers that are paying. The other twenty they were fully developed when the park was built. They've got infrastructure there. However, they do not have a mobile home sitting on them. We've got dealers license in every state that we own a park in and so we can buy wholesale from the retailers and the manufacturers. And we’ll go buy brand new home inventory and we'll bring it in and will basically create a retail program and find buyers for those homes to infill those lots. So, we'll buy the homes. We’ll bring them in. So, I say that's high hanging fruit because it's very capital intensive. It costs money to purchase a home and that money is tied up until you sell that home. So, there are different programs out there that help you to facilitate that but it's still very capital intensive. And there are a lot of logistics involved with moving homes in and setting them up and things like that. So, those are the big ones of how we add value to communities. James: Got it. Got it and I believe the mobile home park homeowners compared to multifamily which are renters, right? So, it’s a completely different mindset when it comes to pride of ownership. Kevin: That's it. That's it. That's why we try to convert them to a homeowner as fast as possible. I mean, you still have your homeowners who you have to kind of kick in the butt every once in a while, to keep your house in order, to keep the yard in order. We’re pretty strict with our screening processes and for the most part, the homeowners within our communities have pride of ownership and take care of their units quite well. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So, let's go back to the property management side of it. Because I remember when I was listening to your podcast about five years ago, you were always saying or the apartment guys had it easy. Because they have their own property management. They are more professional. Finally, after five years you are going to be moving your property management company under yourself.  You going to self-manage, right?   James: Yeah. So, you guys do have it easy. All you have to do is pay it and just hand it off. Buy it and... Yeah, joking. I know there's more to it than that. So, up until a little over a year ago, we managed all our own assets in house. And unfortunately, the property management side of any business there's a certain size to where you can actually break even and we were nowhere near that size. And so, it was a losing endeavor for us. And so, sometime in the middle of last year we were introduced to a property management firm…. we’d never considered property management in the mobile home park space. Only because we were always told that the options of the companies that were out there were poor, very poor. And I was told so by many different people, many different veterans of the industry and so we never really explored it. And so, we always manage it ourselves but last year we were in contract to buy a property up in Michigan. It was in receivership and the bank had engaged this management company, a national management company, a property management company that were mobile home park experts in the business forty years. They were engaged to actually manage the day to day of this thing while it was in receivership. We were buying a note on this thing and we got introduced to this property management company. We got to see them in the real world. James: [barking] My dog has been like a... Alright, Kevin. So, one thing that I got to know since a long time ago is apartments have an easy way of getting into third party property management and buying it and giving it to third party property management. More recently, you have been trying to get your own property management company or maybe you already done it. So, can you explain why that is? Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. So, in our space it is not the norm to hand off to a third-party management company. I think we're like the redheaded stepchild or the anomaly of the real estate industry. Because pretty much every other asset class multifamily, office, retail, all of them have multinational property management companies and lots to choose from, right. They can choose from many different people in the space, best in class things of that nature. I had always been told in the mobile home park space by many industry veterans that it just doesn't exist here that there are only a handful of property management companies and most of them aren't very good. So basically, in the initial years of us owning parks, we managed it ourselves. However, in order to build an appropriate property management company that's profitable, you have to have a certain scale and we were never there two years ago. We just weren't large enough. And so, it was kind of a losing endeavour for us. We're okay with it. But it was prohibiting our ability to grow at the scale that we wanted to. We were good at finding great opportunities and we were good at raising capital. The roadblock was actually the operations of all these different parks were buying.   And so just by happenstance, we were buying a note on a distressed property up in Michigan and it was in receivership. And during that transaction, we got introduced to the management company that was running the show and it was this large group. They've been in this space for 40 years. They are the largest fee manager in our business and they've had a footprint nationwide. And I saw them first-hand and it seemed like they were doing a great job within the first couple of months of us being introduced to them and of them managing this asset that was not yet ours. And so, I flew up and met their team and flew my team up to meet their team. I got to see their operations. I got to learn about them and everything seemed great. I mean, I was impressed. Again, they had a lot of experience… way more experienced than us in this business. They knew everyone in the industry. They knew all the intricacies of the business. They had different departments to manage those things whereas we were basically were trying to wear a million different hats. And it seemed like a perfect match made in heaven. And so, after another month or two of kind of testing them out on this asset. We were buying this and we said ‘You know, let's hand them the majority of our properties and let's see how they do.’ And we kind of did it like two different chunks. And long story short, they're great guys. However, no one's going to ever manage your property like you would. No one's ever going to care as much as you do. And so within four or five months, we started seeing some pretty readily available signs that things were not going as planned. The promises weren't coming true. You know, decisions that should have taken three minutes to make were taking three months to make. Everything was moving like a snail's pace and nothing was getting done and we were actually regressing and it was frustrating. However, what happened during these first six months of us being with them is that we literally acquired like another nine properties. So, we doubled in size. So, unfortunately, it wasn't as easy as us making a decision saying, ‘Hey, we're going to give you our thirty-day notice and we're going to take it back in house.’ Because we surely did not have the infrastructure now to actually manage our assets because we literally doubled in size in a short period of time. And so over the last six months, we've been kind of behind the scenes building out a legitimate property management company with systems and processes and in hiring new team members. We didn't want to bring it back in and fumble. We want to make sure that we brought it back in, we basically built our own best in class operation that we could do it better than anyone else. Whether it be for ourselves or current assets or new assets that we were buying. If we woke up one day and we ended up going crazy. We thought that we wanted to do a third-party management for other people that we would be best in class. I don't think that's going to happen. But that's what we've done over the last five or six months and that's actually side-tracked some of our acquisitions we've only bought two properties this year. We probably could have bought a lot more but anyway I guess long story short, James, is I'm somewhat envious of you guys in the multifamily space. Because there's a bar that set with property management companies and if one company is doing poorly you’ve got other options to go to and typically they kind of keep each other in line a lot of times. And I know that they’re still never going to treat your property like you would yourself personally. However, You've got options and things that might not be working with one company you know that you could probably actually go and get served correctly at another company. We just didn't have that option. We just didn’t have that option. This was the once and done. There were other companies out there but these are the best in class and I'm like, ‘If these are the best in class, we got to build our own. Because there are other options for us.’ That's what we did. We brought it back and so that just happened on November 1st. That’s when we actually truly brought everything that had migrated back in was November 1st. So as of the time of this recording, it was like six weeks ago. James:  Got it. Got it. So yeah, it's a different ballgame, right?  of course, it's going to slow down in terms of acquisitions because now you're also managing the property management. But I think overall, in the long run, it’s much better for you. Right? Kevin: Absolutely, at the end of the day the amazing strides that we've made just in the construction side of our business and the marketing side of our business as far as like sales are concerned…like we've done more in the past two months then was completed in the past year. I'm not even joking. It's been absolutely amazing. So, I'm excited. I’m like, ‘Hey if I'm going to screw up, I want it to be my fault. I don't want it to be someone else's fault that our properties aren't performing.’ I'm okay taking accountability if they're not performing if it's me that's running the ship or driving the ship, right? But if it's another company and they're doing a poor job and we can't control it. I've got issues with that. So, that's kind of where we're at. James:  And I also think that when the market turns people with their own vertical integration will have a lot more leverage in terms of control, right? I mean a lot of property management companies are doing a mediocre job right now but they escape because the markets are super strong right now. Kevin: That's right. The market props everything up. James:  When the market turns then we will know how good they are. Because now we have to be answerable to our investors and we have to go to third party. So, one other thing that I want to touch on about the way you do business a lot of times you raise money and not deal by deal but you use fund model. Can you explain what's a ‘fund model’? And why is that beneficial? Kevin: Yeah, to keep it somewhat simple… I mean, it's really not much different than your deal-specific syndications other than the fact that we've got multiple properties that we're putting underneath that fund umbrella versus just one individual property. So, an investor is going to get their investment diversified amongst multiple properties and possibly multiple different markets rather than just one. So, simply put that really is the only true difference between probably how our business operates and how your business operates. The reason that we decided to go that route happened about three years ago…We were going into the end of the year and we had just founded Sunrise Capital Investors. As like a formal company, rather than just me and buying parks on my own. And we had a pretty stout pipeline and a lot of deals kind of fell apart. And we were like, ‘Oh, we only have two deals now. They're going to either going to close January or February next year. This is due to individual deal-specific raises.’ That's fine. And then all sudden like within like two weeks somehow all these other deals came back to life and we all of a sudden had five deals that absolutely looked like they're going to close. We had like four to five money that went hard and anyway we're like, ‘Okay, well now we have five and they're all going to end up dropping like in the same like week or two. Logistically speaking, it'd be an absolute nightmare to try to do five deals specific syndications. Because of the paperwork and logistics behind it and then the legal costs associated with it and that just didn’t make any sense.’ They're going to close right at the same time.  I think there's more of a benefit for our investors to give them diversification amongst all five of these versus just one. You know, one individually. And so we didn't know what the feedback was going to be and we put it out there and it was well-received. So, it was great for us. It gave us a little bit more flexibility on the buying side. Gave them risk diversification amongst multiple different assets and markets and so it's been a win. So, we did really well with that. That was kind of our test fund and you're last, actually about eighteen months ago, we launched our second Fund. Which is a little bit larger fund twenty-million-dollar fund and it did the same thing. So you know, we're a little different, though.  A lot of funds… a lot of institutional funds will go out and they'll get really aggressive. They'll raise all the money. Let's say it's 100-million-dollar fund to go out and raise I'll spend all their time and energy raising 100 million dollars. And once they've got the commitments for, let's say, maybe 75% or maybe more than that. Then they'll actually start going to buy it. You know, once that money's there and the costs of capital is very high. We didn't want the money sitting around idle. And so, we just continued our building our pipeline and we would only bring money in tranches. So, we'd only bring enough in during that fundraising that we actually knew we're going to need or the next like two months to close deals. So, although it was an eighteen-month buying period over the last fund, we would raise it in tranches. Which meant our investor capitalism is sitting around idle, not collecting a return. We weren't occurring pref on money on millions of dollars that were sitting being around idle. And it just held us accountable and it held everyone accountable which I like. Our interests were very much aligned with one another. James:  So, you basically do capital calls whenever you need the money.  Kevin: That’s it. That's it. James:  These are good capital calls, not the other bad capital calls.  Kevin: Right. Exactly. Like the verbal soft commitments are there. And some of them might not come through but the majority of them do.  You know, I think about 5% drop out of folks. James:  So, you basically make a verbal commitment. And when you have a deal, you say now let's make it hard. Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and each one of these two funds that we started, we actually already had deals and contract going into them. So, it wasn't like we were raising a blind pool like, ‘Oh, here's what we're going to do. We're going to raise this much money, and then we're going to buy.’ It's like we got X amount of properties in contract right now. So, while there might be more properties in this fund, you can physically see and see the performers in each one of these. These are going to be properties that are in this fund. So, there's something tangible there. That's another thing so different about us and how we do these funds. We don't go into it blind. Where we're just raising money and then we're going to go do what we say we're going to do. We're actually doing it simultaneously but we've got deals coming in. We've got deals in contract money hard--- James: ‘Semi blind’ I would call it. Kevin: Call it ‘semi-blind.’ That's a perfect way to put it. It sounds like a rock band. James:  Right, right. Right. Alright, Kevin, can you give some advice to people who are trying to start up in this business in real estate or even in mobile home park? Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Trying to get started up I'd say go try to mute a little bit of social media because everyone's on social media now, but I’d try to mute a little bit of that and go find the one individual girl or gal who is actually doing what you want to do. They can prove to you that they're doing what you want to do.  They're an actual GP. They're not they don't have five thousand units of very minimal shares as an LP and they're touting that. I know that's happening a lot out there. So, you know try to mute all that crap because I know it gives people anxiety. You know, like social media gives people anxiety because they see how everyone else is doing deals and ‘I’m like stuck here I can't get going.’ Just try to mute it out. Silence it and go find the James. Find guys like me.  We're very good with our time. We’re not going to just give everything away for free per se. We only have like so much time today but like find an authentic individual like us,  I don’t want to tout ourselves here, who will actually like give you some real advice that can give you some proper guidance or at least give you some nuggets get on your way and let all that other noise go. Because I think that that that that bottlenecks people a lot. That fear of missing out man. That anxiety creates just this internal turmoil of like, ‘I'm missing out’ and then like you get nothing done right. You’re like, ‘I'm going all these conferences and I'm reading all these books. I'm doing all these things.’ And you feel like a… James:  And you pay big money to some gurus out there. Kevin: Yeah and I think that a lot of folks’ mistake that with like productivity of …attending things like that. It's great. I do it all the time. You do it obviously. We're part of a mastermind together. But like you've actually got to like at some point get granular and you actually have to take some risk and take that leap. It's easier to do when you know someone like you or someone like me or there are other people like us. That one person who you can just kind of lean on and get some general advice from and get the real picture from as well. You know, what's real and what's not.  James:  Absolutely, absolutely. Kevin, why do you do what you do? Kevin: Why I do what I do? I really enjoy it as far as investing in real estate, I really enjoy it. I mean, I love the people I work with. I love our team here. I really enjoy being active and so everyone likes different parts of the deal like as far as what I do I'm not an Excel junkie. Not like my other partner he'll sit in from an Excel platform and run the model many different ways over like five hours. I want to shoot myself when I think of that. I'd rather be out in the field, I like executing on the plan. I like taking something from what it is today and actually seeing the end result of our hard work and effort over a period of six to twelve to eighteen, twenty-four months. And I also like seeing the smiles on the faces of residents. When we take something that's been blighted and actually make improvements to it. Especially folks who have lived there for many years. That's pretty rewarding to be seeing that kind of stuff. Especially, you get the one residence like, ‘God, I’ve been in for twenty years and this place over the last ten years was just scary and I didn't want my family to come over. Now, I have dreamt of the day that it will be the back to its former glory.’ And I like that kind of stuff. So, I like the lifestyle that that real estate provides, right? I get to spend a lot of time with my wife and my kids and friends and family and things like that. James:  Absolutely and was there any proud moment towards your real estate career that you can never forget? That will stay with you.  Is there one proud moment that you were like I’m so proud of myself. Kevin: Yeah, actually there is one. It was the very first mobile home park that we bought. If you got time, I'll tell the story. It's probably two- or three-minutes story but anyway, I'll try to keep it short. We were buying a very, very distressed park in Atlanta, Georgia. It was in a good little town but it was in the southern part of Atlanta. Which was got hit really hard with the recession and was slower to recover because there were a lot of the new developments that were out that way.  Anyway, we're buying this park that had been receivership for two years. It was fairly poor condition. Lots of squatters, all kinds of bad stuff happening there. The chief of police and the mayor's office were right across the street like a catty-corner. They had to drive past this place every day and we got it tied up and it was a small enough town and corporate town that we actually got a meeting with the mayor and this entire city council including the chief and everyone. And we went in there with his grand plan of how we're going to literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to clean this place up and to improve it and make it a proud part of their community.  And we gave this big sales pitch to the mayor's like this really tall guy with a bald head and the handlebar mustache. He is a really mean looking guy and this was in Georgia. He had like a rifle on the wall and a fox. He was a  very intimidating guy but he let us talk. Everyone's kind of looking like shaking their heads. I thought we were like getting their acceptance and he let us talk for fifteen minutes and then he looked at us and he said, ‘If you guys buy that park, you're wasting your money.  Get out of my town. I've been trying to shut that thing down for years now and I'm not going to stop until it's completely closed down. So get the hell out of here. Take your money somewhere else.’ So, we walked out of that room and we and I looked at my partner I said, ‘What do you think we should do?’ Because we weren't getting financing, we were paying all cash for this thing, too. Because it wasn't financialable. So, it was like basically all the money we had at that point. We bought it anyway. ‘So, let's buy it. I mean what are they going to do? Listen, let's just show them what we're going to do. I mean, how are they going to truly stop us, right? Let's do what We're going to do. We know we're going to clean the place up. He doesn't believe us but let's prove them wrong.’ We did that cleaned it up. We became really good friends with code enforcement officer that's kind of that was our like our foot in. We got her gift cards and made her like us and it was a very very open with our communication to her. So, if there was ever an issue, we addressed it right away.  Anyway, twelve months later I got a call from Mayor Bobby Carter's that his name and we got a call from him and I answered I didn’t know it him and he said, ‘This is a Mr. Bobby Carter.’ He has a southern accent. He said, ‘I just want to take a moment to apologize. I want to apologize for the way I treated you guys. I want to apologize for thinking that you wouldn't be able to execute on the beautiful plan that you have done over here.’ It was a long apology and he's like, ‘I just want to take a moment today. I've been meaning to call you over the last six months as I've seen progress being made but it's a year later and this place is great and actually, one of my staff members lives there.’ James:  He was holding it off until he had to tell you. Kevin: That was pretty cool. He literally wrote me a letter then he wrote a letter of recommendation to another Mayor who we were having an issue within another state in another town. Basically, saying like, ‘I thought mobile home parks were the problem. I thought this and the other and that's not the case. And these guys proved me wrong.’ And that's pretty cool. I'm pretty proud of that one. James:  Yeah. It's a big change especially with one of your first ones.  Kevin: He was the very first one. James:  You must have been really scared. I like how come the is not behind your back. Kevin: Well, we could lose that money either. I didn't have much at that point. In 2012, I was pretty broke back then. So, I had to make the money work. James:  That must be the fuel that launched your rocket and your motivation I guess. Kevin: Yeah, that's it. James:   So, why don't you tell our audience how to get a hold of you and your company? Kevin: Yeah, the best place to reach me personally is my website, Kevin Bob. You can find me on LinkedIn and Facebook as well. As far as our company if you want to learn what we're doing in the mobile home park space, you go to sunrisecapitalinvestors.com and get signed up there as well. We don't have an offering open today but get signed up. We have a secure portal and get updates from us when you know we have deals coming about and things of that nature. But other than I'm not too hard to track down. So, it’s pretty easy to find me on iTunes. I've got a couple of podcasts as we've mentioned earlier. You can find me in many different places. And now you can also find me on Jame’s show. James:  Yeah. So, thanks for coming. It was an awesome podcast. It was a lot of value that you gave us and I'm happy to have you on my show. Kevin: Thank you. Thanks for having me, James. And it's been a pleasure knowing you. I appreciate all you do with the podcast. I know how much work it is to put these things out. So, thank you for taking the time to get back to everyone. So much appreciated.  

Listeners of the podcast already know a great range of the kinds of businesses XR has applications for. But one business we don’t talk about a lot is the business of making movies. Filmmaker Kevin Kunze pops in to help fill that void, and talk about some of his adventures in XR filmmaking. Alan: Hey, everyone, this is Alan from the XR for Business Podcast. Today’s guest is Kevin Kunze, an award-winning interactive filmmaker based out of Berkeley, California. We’ll be talking about making an AR video with Will.i.am, creating art with Intel, and delivering on the promise of VR and AR with the San Francisco 49ers, San Jose Sharks, YouTube, and more. All that coming up on the XR for Business Podcast. Kevin, welcome to the show, my friend. Kevin: Thank you very much for having me. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. I’ve been so excited about this. You are making some of the coolest VR experiences. You’re an award-winning interactive filmmaker. I want to just give you the platform to tell us all the cool stuff that you’re working on. Kevin: Sure. So, over the past couple years, we’ve done a lot of different VR work, ranging from filming the 49ers — Colin Kaepernick’s last season with them — to the San Jose Sharks. Getting guys just like crunched against the glass in VR, seeing those front row seats. It’s something that’s many sports fans’ wildest dreams. We’re also currently working on projects that are more in the restorative justice side of things. I’m working on a VR series about an African-American filmmaker, Kevin Epps. He’s kind of like the Spike Lee of San Francisco, is what a lot of people say, but he works mainly in documentary. And three years ago he got involved in an incident that SFPD at the time said was self-defense shooting. And now three years later, he’s been re-arrested and they’re saying it’s murder. And he was recently got out of bail. I actually picked him up from the jail and drove him home. And so I’ve been documenting his experience and his family’s experience in VR, because it is the empathy platform and it’s the medium that many people will see things different. And basically, this is a series that can also be shown in standard video format. We plan to go online with it on Amazon or Netflix and present it like that, and then have it be an additional thing that maybe Netflix or Amazon has on their platform in the Oculus or HTC. And then you can see it in 3D and in full peripheral, and maybe giving people access to additional footage as well. For instance, I had the idea of making an interactive feature, where you are doing interviews with some of these high profile people. For instance, we have this great rapper, Mistah F.A.B., who we interviewed, and he’s known Kevin since he’s about like 18, 19 years old. And he is so eloquent with all of his language. He’s like one of the most interesting people that I’ve ever interviewed. And so giving the access of this footage that normally you would not use in the final product, this five-part series. And normally editors would put this on DVD deleted scenes or they just put in the trash, they put it on a hard drive. And it would never see the light of day. And instead, my idea would be that you take this footage and make an interactive app, where you’re in the headset and you actually have cue cards around you and can ask these questions. In a way you become the investigator; the interviewer. Alan: Cool. So how is it interactive? Is it just like a pop-up gaze control or…? Kevin: Yeah, I mean, maybe it could be gaze controlled if we want to go through like Yo

In today’s episode, we have the pleasure of featuring a well known & respected mobile home park guru, Kevin Bupp. He entered the real estate world at the young age of 19 where he started with single-family residential real estate. As time went on, he learned about commercial real estate and grew his portfolio- right before the crash of 2008. Like everything, you live and learn- and that’s what Kevin did. He did some soul searching and wanted to focus on his hobbies of health and fitness. He took some time off of real estate and built a company around custom cycling clothes and ran a social club 'Running For Brews.’ However, Kevin still had that real estate fire in him and his vision changed after a lunch meeting. Kevin became intrigued in mobile home parks and he owns several of them throughout the US. In today’s episode, he discusses how and why he chose mobile home parks in this second round of his career, the factors of a good deal & how to find them, and the importance of being in a good headspace.  Episode Highlights: How Things Affected His Business In The Early 2000s 2012 Tragedy And Onwards The World of Mobile Home Parks Where To Learn About Investing In Mobile Home Parks   Connect with Kevin Website: Kevinbupp.com Company Website: sunrisecapitalinvestors.com Podcast: Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, today I'm very excited to discuss one of the most intriguing asset classes and one that is known to have caught my attention at least. And of course, I'm talking about mobile home parks. Mobile home parks are one of my primary targets as an investor because I truly believe that to create long term wealth, there is nothing better than buying a piece of land. And if that land also happens to be a cash cow, then I'm all in. I think mobile home parks are just that. So, in today's episode, I'm going to host Kevin Bupp who has a truly remarkable story and is considered a guru when it comes to mobile home parks. So, let's get going. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Alright, hey, Kevin. Welcome to the show. Kevin: Hey, Don, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Don: Of course I was looking forward to it as well because I know you're one of the best mobile home park investors out there. So, I'm very happy to have you on the show because it's not a secret that I'm very interested in mobile home parks. But first, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your career and how you got started so my audience could get to know you a little bit better. Kevin: Sure. Mobile home parks have been our focus for the past seven years. However, it's not really where I got started. Like a lot of folks, I got started in single-family residential real estate. It was introduced to me or I was introduced to it back when I was 19 years old. Ultimately took me about a year and a half to buy my first property and spent the next couple of years following that introduction to residential focusing on building a single-family rental portfolio. And that's the direction of my mentor at that time. That's exactly what his business model was. So, I just followed it to a tee. We would only ever wholesale or flip a home when we needed to build up capital reserves. But the long term intent was to always build a portfolio for long term cash flow. At some point during the first couple of years, I was introduced to the world of commercial real estate more specifically multifamily property and so we started diving into the multifamily space as well. This is back pre-2008. This is back in 2002-2007, leading up to '08. So, we had built quite a large portfolio of single-family properties and instead of acquiring apartment complexes as well, along with other miscellaneous commercial real estate. Don: Sounds risky build up a big portfolio just before 2008. So, did it end well? Kevin: Well, if I had a crystal ball, I surely would have planned slightly differently, right? No, it didn't end well at all. We're down in Southwest Florida pretty much ground zero, one of the ground zeroes for the real estate crash and crisis. It was a very challenging time. The single-family market down here suffered greatly, not just from a value perspective, all of our properties have a lot of equity. We had a very low leverage point we thought was a very conservative leverage point in our single-family properties. But what we found is within a year period of time slightly less, most, if not all of them were upside down in value. Don: It's like the worst nightmare for every investor. What happened to you? You were investing in single families in Florida before 2008. That's the worst-case scenario. Kevin: Yeah, and it wasn't just the values it was a rental, the occupancy got affected, a lot of people are leaving Florida back then there weren't jobs, a lot of the jobs, were heavily relying on real estate, the growth of real estate, you know, building and development practices. So we had to hit to our rental premiums that were charged, and we had to start offering concessions, and your rents don't always continually go up, there are certain points in times where rents can be affected, and you might have a little more of a challenging time occupying your units will take longer than usual, you might have to give some concessions away, couple free months of rent or a discounted rent for the first couple of months. So, we had to do that, we had to do all the above.  It just was very, very hard to maintain the status quo when we had a portfolio that was underwater. In addition to that, it was negative cash flow, and it went from positive to a negative cash flow standpoint, you can't sustain that for very long least we couldn't. I didn't have $20 million sitting in the bank that could just keep feeding this beast and so we hung on for as long as we could. But ultimately, we were forced to essentially give back a lot of our portfolio to the banks. At that point, the banks didn't have the loss mitigation departments. This was very fresh. Most banks were forced to create those departments within their company to do workouts and loan modifications. However, that did not exist. The first year when things started going completely haywire, and so none of the banks were willing to work with us whatsoever. That's the last thing they wanted to discuss was that loan workout. We really did what we had to do and we tried to hold on as long as we could and ultimately had to get back a lot of what we had built over the years. Don: Okay, so when you say give back, I assume it was a deed in lieu? Foreclosure, right? Kevin: We had hundreds of properties. So, deed in lieu, some of the banks were so in disorganization at that point that they just didn't, there was a way we could speak with just ultimately went through the judicial process and went through foreclosure. We would short sell whatever we could just that we tried to work with the banks as much as possible. We were here, we were open, we're open-minded and willing to work with them. And so, some of the banks worked with us through short sales, we did that.  Others again, there was no communication, there was no dialogue and so, those ultimately went through the judicial foreclosure process somewhere deed in lieu or willing to do whatever we could to ease the process on both sides. But again, there wasn't much organization with a lot of banks in the first couple of years of the crash. Now every bank has a loss mitigation department. There are people, there's a dedicated department to deal with loan modifications and doing reworks with borrowers. That didn't exist. It just didn't exist back then. Don: Of course. Going a little bit forward, then it's 2012. I know you made your first mobile home park deal, right? Kevin: That's correct. Yeah, took a couple of years off a real estate. Well, I shouldn't have I kind of kicked myself in the butt now. But it was damage control for a number of years. It was very hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not a sob story. I've learned a lot from it. I lost my personal residence and got bank accounts got garnished. It was a very ugly personal time for me. I'm still young at heart today but I mean, I was in my 20s. And I'd never gone through something like this before. I've only ever experienced the positives of real estate. It was a lot to consume and to digest. I knew that I needed to focus on my health and fitness. And so, I started a few other businesses that were directly related to the health and fitness industry and that allowed me to number one, create some revenue and income for myself because I was broke. I mean, I'd have anything and my bank account got garnished.  Don: What kind of business? Kevin: I started two different companies. One was a custom clothing company. I was a big runner, and I'm a cyclist, triathlete. And so, I was already ingrained in that community. And there was a huge need for custom cycling clothes and also running clothes for big events that we got into the sublimation business. I knew nothing about it before just watch some YouTube videos and did a bunch of my research and ultimately built a printing company. In addition to that, I love craft beer, and I love running as well. I thought there might be a great marriage. This is back again in like 2009 craft beer was kicking off. It wasn't as big as what it is today, but it was on a roll.  So, I started a social running club that was called 'Running For Brews', and once a week and a set location, we meet for a social run. And afterward we have been at a local brewery and we ultimately ended up opening up 45 locations throughout the country. The bars we charge them for basically bringing people every week to the bar so we get paid based on the amount of attendance we had. It was a fun business. It was one allowed me to be in direct alignment with my interest and also stay healthy and fit as well. Because again, every week we were meeting and going for social runs, 5K's, 10 K's, what have you. And so, it didn't kill the world. We weren't making millions of dollars with it but it was a fun revenue-generating business for us. And then the printing company as well. So those two things allowed me to really tie together my hobbies, health, and fitness and also generate income while I was trying to work through the mess that I had been experiencing with the real estate downturn. Don: Nice. Yeah, I think it's very important to do things you love. I've had some rough times as well. And then I found out that my hobbies are the ones that really saved me and got me back to become a lucid person again. I like to skate, you would never know if you see me dressed up work, you'd never know. But if I need to clear my mind, I just go out and skate and do something. I'm sure you've done that and that helped you a lot with mood and willpower, right? Kevin: That's the one thing that I realized is that everything else was out of my control. My credit was shot, I was getting calls every day from creditors. There were a lot of things that were outside of my control. The one thing I could control was how I felt and how I dealt with these challenging times these days and months that were lying ahead. Being in peak shape, both mentally and physically surely helped me get through those times. I mean, if I had just sat around and ate a bunch of cupcakes and drank a bunch of beer and got overweight and lazy, I'm sure my mental fitness surely would not be in tip-top shape. Don: Let's talk about 2012, where you got back to real estate after the trauma that you've been through with establishing a very serious portfolio and then losing most of it in the crisis. Then you got back to real estate, which is I believe, you know, once you do real estate and you're successful, it doesn't matter what happened, you going to get back to it, right? Kevin: Yeah, that fire was inside me. I tried to pull out or once in a while during those tough years, and I wish I would have looked at it differently. I think if it ever happened again, I would have a different perspective. And everyone knows the old saying of ‘buy when there's blood in the street’, it's just really hard to put that theory to work when its blood that's out in the street, right? It's really hard to think about it when you're inside that bubble. But I think looking back I did the best I could. And I had that fire burning, things were looking better. I was in a better situation all around. I've gotten married to the love of my life, still married to her today, she dealt with me through those downtimes. We got married in 2010. So, she was with me during some really hard times. Life was looking great, didn't have good credit yet. Still, we're working through some financial challenges, everything else was just lining up perfectly.  I knew I would get back into real estate, I knew I wanted to get that fire just glowing again. I look back and reflect on what I would have done differently or what mistakes I might have made back during my earlier years prior to the crash. What would the second round look like? Was it going to look the same or am I going to change my business model a little bit? What I realized is that I put a lot of time and energy into buying 120 plus single-family properties for the rental portfolio. I wasn't married, enjoyed what I did, but I put a lot of long hours and which is fine. I mean, you got to work your butt off.  However, I knew there was a more efficient way kind of reflected back and I compared to my apartment complexes that we owned to the single-family properties and realize that we didn't put nearly as much effort into acquiring 500 doors, apartment doors as we did acquiring 120 single-family rentals and those apartments to seem to kind of chug along, whereas the rentals were scattered amongst three different counties. They were inefficient to operate. I just knew that moving forward, I didn't want to have to rebuild a single-family home portfolio. It wasn't a good fit. It wouldn't allow me to scale fast. I wanted to regrow things or rebuild things much faster than I had done it before. I knew that multifamily is a way to do that. I understood residential real estate.  I knew that apartments were going to be a good fit for me and during that kind of journey of learning how the landscape has changed even the apartment space, I got introduced to a guy by the name of Randy. Randy owns mobile home parks here in Florida. He owned three of them had been a banker for his entire life, did a lot of lending on mobile home parks here in Florida and ultimately retired from the bank and went out and bought three fairly large mobile home communities and had lunch with Randy were introduced by a mutual friend. I had lunch with Randy one day just not interested in mobile home parks, but just really to meet someone new and I left that two-hour lunch meeting with Randy with a newfound interest in the mobile home park.  He piqued my interest in many different ways that I had never even thought about as it relates to investing in parks and I left that meeting confirming that I was going to give the next 12 months of my life to learning everything I could about mobile home parks, not just learning it, but going on actually putting the use of buying a park. So, I was going to buy a park and either prove or disprove all the great things that Randy had said about the niche. So that's what I did. I went out and did that. So, this was like 2011 when I met Randy, and so in late 2012, bought our first Park up in Atlanta, Georgia still owns it today.  The smaller community, it's the smallest thing that we own. However, we bought it at the right price, it's a great location. And the thing kicks out money every month without fail, bought that one, really enjoyed how it went. Bought the second one, which up in North Carolina bought a third one bought the fourth one and the story evolves forward seven years later, got communities and 11 different states right now and this has been our core business for the last seven years. So really, it has been very lucrative for us, it has been a lot of fun. It's a phenomenal niche. You've come into it, Don. I know you're looking to buy your first park so there's been a lot of things that have piqued your interest in this niche. Same things that probably peaked mine seven years ago. And we just took it and ran with it. So that's where we're at today. Don: I could tell you what I'm thinking about mobile home parks and where I'm coming from, I'm coming from owning a single-family portfolio as well. I'm also developing 30 units here in Hollywood, Florida. I'm developing the entire thing from the ground, it's going to be in A-class building, it’s going to be great, close to the beach. So, it's a great area. But somebody had a discussion with me, which also piqued my interest in mobile home parks for a few reasons. I can tell you what I'm thinking, and I want to know what you're thinking about this because I know you're the expert of them. So, here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that there are a few reasons why I'm interested in them. The first one is because they're not zoning for them anymore. So, it's just a fundamental of supply and demand. That's like the most basic thing in the universe. Supply, demand. If you have something that has more demand than supply, then you should try to get that thing for a good deal. So, they don't zone for them because they don't make as well as an income for the cities, as much as the multifamily would as far as property taxes from what I understand, maybe there are other reasons. So that's one reason.  The second reason is that it's just not getting any cheaper and it's not getting any easier to find affordable housing in America. Some so many people have section eight vouchers but can't find homes and the population is growing. So, I don't see any stop to that, I just see how you know, we keep growing as far as that number and the gap between the rich and poor, that's not going anywhere as well. So, when rents are going to get compressed, how compressed are they going to get so that mobile home parks are going to go down in the price? That's the reason. The last reason is that its land. So, it's God's money. When bitcoins replace dollars and when the currency changes in the next 10 years or 20 years, the land is always going to be worth a lot of money. I think buying a mobile home park, close to downtown is a long term investment. It's the best investment you could make, because in cash flows and it's going to appreciate in a tremendous way. If somebody who owns a car dealership is going to want to buy our lot because there is no other land to buy it and they could pay you $15 million in 20 years in today's money. That's what I'm thinking. Am I right? Kevin: I think you hit all relevant points. And it's a great covered land play. We're not a speculative buyer. So, we don't buy our mobile home parks with the intent that there's going to be a higher and better use in 10 or 15, 20 years, we buy it for the income that's being generated as a mobile home community. However, we look at the higher and better use as icing on the cake. If you're within the path of progress or anywhere in its path, even if it takes 15, 20, 30 years to get to you, that land at some point in time should have a higher value than what it does today.  Having a mobile home or mobile homes on that site paying you lot rent. People need a roof over their heads. It's a great way to cover the cost of owning that land and generate some income until that higher and better use comes along. So now, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, it's a parking lot. It's kind of the same idea behind investing a parking lots like you see parking lots is urban core districts, downtown business districts. What a great covered land play. You've got basically a demand for parking, you got a prime piece of real estate at some point in time or another, those surface parking lots are going to have a much higher better using that could be high rise office building apartment complex, what have you, and I feel mobile home parks are very similar nature. Don: Okay, so let's talk about your criteria and your experience. So, what have you learned about investing in mobile home parks? What is it that you're looking for? Like when you see a deal, how do you know it's a good deal? Kevin: A good deal has a different definition for everybody. A lot of it depends on Is it a long term strategy, is it a short term strategy. For us, we like to look at things as though we're going to own them for 7 to 10 years if not longer than that, ideally longer than that, right? We have bought and sold things in the past. However, going into them, we pretty much decided that, that is that type of deal. Like we're going to get in here turn around, and we're not going to keep it for whatever reason that is we're going to look to flip it here in the next year or two. But as far as long term strategy, we know number one, speaking about the demographics, we want to be an area that is economically sound, that doesn't have a diminishing population to it, we want to be an area that has a strong median home price, strong median rental price as well, so that we know there's a demand for affordable housing.  You know, we wouldn't have been an area that's got a diverse employment base as well. We want to know there are jobs available for our workers. Generally speaking, that's the demographics that we're seeking. As far as the deal itself, there are certain targets we have investors that we have to meet the demands of and so for us, we look at what kind of cash on cash return in this park generate, not just from day one, but look at year one, year three, year five, you know, what does the long term projection look like in this community? Where can we get it to go, where's the value add components and what's realistic of what we truly achieve in that given time, and our target then between year one and year two, is to be somewhere in the 12% to 13% cash on cash range, so that number is kind of changed over time.  I could tell you that things have gotten a lot tighter, cap rates are going to press quite a great deal in our space, and the types of deals we were buying four years ago, you're not seeing as much of anymore back then we could easily be getting 15%, 16%, 17% cash on cash returns, sometimes upwards of 20% cash on cash returns quite often. It's getting a lot tighter lot harder to find those types of opportunities today, however, we still like to hit those lower double-digit cash on cash returns between year one and year two, and sometimes sooner, sometimes it might take a little longer. But that's really what the target is that we're reaching for. And that's a leveraged return, that's assuming that we're going to put some type of debt in place. The normal debt that we underwrite with is 70% loan to value 20-year amortization. Unless we know that it absolutely from day one will go either with CMBS or a Fannie or Freddie loan. In that case, typically, it's going to be in the 75% loan to value range in a 30-year amortization. Right now the rates are somewhere in the low foursome are actually below four, depending on what rate of an asset it is. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, Don, but what we're kind of looking for it doesn't mean that folks are out there hunting if it doesn't meet the criteria I just gave you, it's not a good deal because that just means it's a good deal for us and that actually fits our buying criteria.  As far as like quality of assets, I say the one big thing that's changed for us over the last couple of years, not that we would ever buy low-quality assets, however, we're much more picky with the great asset that will buy today than what it might have been maybe five years ago. It's one of those things from a bandwidth perspective, you're always you're buying or dogs wanting to start parks. it's manageable when you're small when you've got a few communities, but just know that those dogs, if they're in a primary that might be different because you can always change the tenant base if you've got just a phenomenal location area. But if you're an okay area, but you got a low demographic that you're serving in your park, it might not ever be more than what it is there today, you know, and so you might just have a little bit more of a challenging demographic that you're serving. And it gets to a certain point where that's just not scalable. At least that's what we found when you're putting out a million fires left and right because you got an older park, it's kind of got a rougher tenant base that is just very demanding.  You're always fighting them to get your payments on time. It's got a really old infrastructure that you're always repairing. Your bandwidth gets stretched very thin very quickly if you tried to own 10, 20, 30 of those parks, and so we're very particular nowadays with not just the quality the park itself above the ground, but also below the ground. What does that infrastructure look like, be very particular about what's the useful life that's there is there 10 years left in the water and sewer lines? Are there five years or 20 years? When was the park built? How about the roads themselves? What condition they're in? And how are they going to hold up over time? So we really put a lot emphasis on that, because we want to know that, number one, the tenant base that we're serving isn't going to be overwhelming for us that they're going to be just a good solid tenant base, but also the park itself, the infrastructure that we're not going to get surprised 10 years down the road with some major infrastructure improvements that we hadn't planned for. Lots of parks out there were built 60-70 years ago. Pipes don't last forever, sewer systems don't last forever, wastewater treatment plants don't last forever, and they're incredibly expensive to replace. Anyway, that's just some of the things that we look for out there searching. Don: I want to ask you a few questions about that. Because from the way you say it, it looks like you guys are looking to buy parks that are already established, occupied, are in good shape, but how could you get like that? Kevin: Yeah, give you an example. We got a parking contract right now, this is probably a perfect example for us. There's a park down in Texas, we're not closed yet, we're in contract for some I'm not going to mention the actual city and state or I'm not going to mention the city but it's in Texas. It's 204 lots and total. Still, this is a good example to use. So, this park, it's got 151 mobile home pads and then the remainder is RV pads, which is kind of a hybrid so it's not 100% mobile home. However, the RV-ers are long term. There are some folks that live there for like three, four years, it's very much a permanent type establishment. The mobile home lots of 149 of 151 are occupied and 26 of the RV lots of the 51 are occupied.  From a revenue perspective, the park is fairly stable, the lot rents are at 375 they could easily go to probably 450 so it's got some move to run on the rents already. It's got city water and sewer it's already being built back so there's not a lot of recapture or revenue to be had thereby building back the water and sewer. They do have some recapture issues but not big ones, you know, things that are fairly easy for us to go in and fix probably a couple of water leaks and a few people that aren't paying their bills as they should be. But generally speaking, that upside has been kind of removed as well. However, where the upside in this park lies, is it looks like crap. The infrastructure is good. The water and sewer are good. It was built to the right specs. It's laid out well, however, the family that's owned it for the past 40 plus years, they just haven't enforced any rules at all. These are all 10 own homes.  There are no park own homes here. I'd say maybe only a handful of homes have actual skirting and so the park looks loud. Hell, it looks horrible. The roads aren't in great shape against got good infrastructure there it was planned out well as far as layouts are concerned. All the lots are a big enough size to where they can fit. newer model single-wide some double-wide. It's got paved two car parking in each home. However, there are cars all over the place. It's more of a cosmetic type deal for us to go and improve other than raising the rents themselves. So, our intent with that one we're buying it for $5.65 million. More than likely what the first 12-18 months will look like there is trying to fix the minor water recapture issues that are going on.  There's about $65,000 of water and sewer that's going somewhere and it's not getting recaptured. I don't know if it's a big water leak or what but we're going to fix that. Normally, it's pretty easy to kind of narrow down what the issue is there either if people aren't paying it, or there's a water leak in the water is going into the ground, one of those two things. We're going to do that we're going to go in and skirt every single home. It's going to cost us $150,000 to do it, but it's going to make that park look like a completely different part just by doing that every home will have a new skirting unit the home itself looks kind of like crap. It will look a million times better with skirting around it. We're going to do a massive community cleanup. There's lots of untagged vehicles, lots of crap around the houses, we're probably going to spend upwards of $50,000 just by buying renting 30, 40 yard dumpsters to get in there, get some labor in there to help people clean your mess up that they've created over the past 10, 15, 20 years.  We're going to fix the roads by about $150,000 worth of road repair that is needed in that park and then the RV lots there's 25 that are empty right now all the hookups are there. I did some test ads to see what the demand was for a one-bedroom, one-bath park model home they'll park miles like one of the small little 99 square foot homes. Within 24 hours we had like 55 inquiries on Facebook so there's a great demand for that type of product in that marketplace. So, we're going to go by 26 park model homes and fill in those remainder of RV pads or if any of the other RV lots turn in the meantime we'll bring in a park model home. That way it looks more like a mobile home park then it does a mobile home park with an RV section with like fifth wheels and travel campers and things like that. So, we'll do that over this period of the first 12-18 months. We'll get rents up. I don't know if we're going to push them to $450 relegate but we'll get them over $400.  Now here's the best part about this. It's in the best part of town it's a right down the road from a Country Club. It's right behind. It's probably one of the nice neighborhoods in the area. All the major retailers are within a block away so if you got a good arm you can throw a stone that far. It's very close by so it's in the best part of town however it looks like death. But the revenues coming in such a desirable area and the schools are so good right there that the park is full the vans full however it looks horrible, and so it had been on the market for a while for a much higher price and it just hadn't sold because it looks scares people away. However, I can see the underlying beauty because I know that the location in the market changes everything. I can easily take what's there now because I know there's enough people that are banging at the door to get in saying, ''Hey, I would love to live here and raise my family here because it's such a great part of town and great schools," that if I lose some of the bad people that are there, I know I'll fill those places right back in with good people.  However, this park was in like the other side of town, it wouldn't be a good deal to me at all, I would never be able to make it look better than what it does today. Even if I put money into it, it would revert to its old self very quickly, and it would never be a strong operator. Collections are phenomenal revenues high, we can get the rents to $450 within the first two years will bail turn around and sell this market we choose to pry for slightly over $10 million is what the evaluation will come in at. If we fill in the park models, get the lot rents up to $450, fix the water recapture problem and aesthetically improve the park which will help drive down that cap rate on the sales side that it becomes all day every day at $10 million parks. Don: So okay, so let's talk about the numbers. So right now you're buying it based on the income I assume, right? Kevin: Yeah, it's about a seven cap. Now we're buying it out. Don: It's a seven cap. What would you say right now is the renovations that it requires as far as the dollar amount. Kevin: About a half-million dollars. Don: Half a million. So, you're buying it for 5.56? Right? Kevin: We're buying a 5.65. And then we got about a half million. Yeah. Don: Okay. You got to be a little bit over 6 million, right? Kevin: Correct. Don: Okay, so how are you going to bring the park into a valuation of 10 million? Is that because you're going to sell it on a lower cap rate? It's almost an institutional park. Right. The buyer for that is institutional. Kevin: So, it would it will be when we're done with it. Yeah, right now, not even close. But it will be when we're done with it. We evaluated a six and a half cap was where we ran it at. Don: That's your exit point? Kevin: Yeah, that'd be the exit point. Things in Texas right now in this market are trading for like five and a half cap. So, but we were low conservative with the exit there in case it fluctuates. Six and a half cap is what we used. Don: What's the NOI of the park if I may ask you right now. Kevin: Yeah, I don't know. Don, I couldn't do that. I'd be lying if I gave you a number right now. Don: But you're saying you could increase the NOI by roughly 35%? Kevin: That's correct. From a rent increase from a, there's like $120,000 worth of payroll in this park. So, there are lots of family members working there, there's a lot of expense line items that can be shaved down as well. Payroll being one big one. As I said, there's about a $65,000 water recapture issue that's happening. I'm not sure where it's going. It's either people aren't being charged, or there's a pretty massive leak.  Just between that and payroll alone, there's $100,000 of additional revenue to be had. Filling in the remainder of the RV lots that are there with park model homes is a major boom, thinking assuming that you're in the 450 range as far as lot rents are concerned. Adding those 26 homes there is a major boom for that park as far as revenue and then if you raise the rents on the remainder of the park, and you get to that $450 mark, which is $75 above where it's at today. Let's just say that on all 200 lots in that park that we were able to achieve another $75 of revenue so that's another $180,000 a year of annual income that doesn't have any costs associated with it other than a rent letter increase going out. There are no additional costs associated with achieving that additional revenue. So just between that and shaving off some of the lifetime expenses, there's $280,000 of additional revenue there to be had. Don: Okay, so I want to ask you a question regarding buying a park that is currently in such a bad situation and condition that it doesn't cash flow, or it does, but not enough. So, it could be, you know, sometimes don't have negative cash flow. So, is that something that you recommend if there's a solid value on them, or that's something you would never do? You always want to buy something that cash flows right now. And so, when you buy it from day one, you already make money? Kevin: This one will cash flow. So, this one will support itself. We're not going to pay for all these improvements out of the cash flow. That's just a bad plan altogether. So, we're going to put up all this capX money as of right from the get-go. This is going to be funded right in the beginning. So, this one, not that situation. This one supports itself. Would we get into it if it didn't support itself? Probably not. It's just there's a lot of risks there on that size of a deal. If it truly is a negative cash flow. I feel very confident about it, but the timing gets Off relatively quickly, when you have such a major renovation project, just lining up crews and contractors. Missing a year off deadline on a big project like this is not unheard of, it could be very commonplace.  So, it gets very expensive if you're truly losing money on a monthly basis, and you missed the target by a year of when these parks ready. So, if we're off by six months or a year, the park still makes money and still makes sense. It's still generating good levered cash on cash return while we're making these improvements. Now, there's a park we got in Georgia. Going into it, we knew number one, we didn't want to be in that marketplace. I didn't like the market all that well. However, what we're buying the park for, it was kind of like, there's no way we can lose here, especially based on the time that we can get the timing right of getting this place cleaned up and renovated, some of these homes so that we should be able to get in and get out and should have little to no risk associated with it. That's what we did took us about 18 months to get in and clean the place up.  We did it with the intent of not taking any cash flow out the place didn't pay for itself. I guess we probably could have taken some cash flow at some point or we just put it all back in property and got it cleaned up, got it stabilized, and then turned around and sold it to a cash buyer and moved on to the next. So that one, we felt confident we had such a low basis in it. However, it's your first deal, and you gotta make it work, I will probably move away from something like that, man, there's just so many things that can go wrong. And it's like you've got all your life savings sunken into this thing or if you got your money and your investors money, but yet, you've never actually done a deal like that before, and you don't have a plan B, then I think it's incredibly risky. I think there's easier ways to make money than to do that, the model I just shared with you. However, I've got experience doing it, I've done it before and allow the money than deal with my own money in a wouldn't have sunk me if that deal wouldn't have gone as planned. And again, our basis was so low that it would have been very hard for us to lose. Don: I understand. Okay, so let's talk about how you find these deals because I know that's a big deal. That's 200 and some spaces, it's more of the institutional buyers typically the people are going to look for that. So how do you find these deals? Kevin: We got a lot of relationships with brokers, but I will say that the majority of the deals that we own today and that we have in our pipeline are due to our efforts. And that is direct mail, pick up the phone and cold call owners. And we take on the role of a broker. I mean, we identify parks in certain markets that we like, and we try to build a rapport with the owner or someone in the family that has ownership of that property. And this particular deal in Texas I gave you, you say it's an institutional it will be. However, it's not today, no institution, the right mind would touch this thing in the current condition that it's in. However, I know that it will be an institutional play once we're done with it. So that's where we hope to get it but that one was found via cold call, it was listed when we called on it.  However, it was not listed on like loop net or any of the big commercial side that had a local commercial broker that had it marketed. I don't know where the heck he was marketing and Don, I'd never seen it before and normally I see pretty much everything that gets on the market. He had been asking, I think over $8 million for I think eight and a half million or something like that. He's not a mobile home park broker. He didn't understand the business. A lot of development happening right in this immediate area. I think that he's a little off what that lands worth. However, that's how he was marketing and it was like eight and a half million dollars. And we made a number of offers over the last six months and finally really took our offer knew we could execute on it. So that was a cold call.  We get a lot from the cold calls, we get a lot from direct mail. But our goal is to really build relationships with owners, not just send them a piece of mail saying, "Hey, we buy mobile home parks, you'll call us." That doesn't work all that well. You know, our goal with the letter is a very personalized letter. And then we typically follow up with a phone call and just say hi, say hello, go to the relationship. You get to meet these folks at industry events that they're going to be attending. If I'm going to be in the local area, if I'm visiting another property, I get on our spreadsheet, I see who else has a park in that area, how we communicate with them. So, I try to get together coffee, try to grab lunch, what have you. Just build these relationships doing the same things a lot of brokers do, but we do it on our behalf. The goal of doing that is that remove competition because as soon as it gets into a broker's hand, it's their fiduciary responsibility to get the highest dollar amount for it right even if it's a pocket listing, per se. More than likely that pocket listing is going to get handed off to a number of potential buyers. We've never sold a property directly to the owner we've always used the broker. I get their capacity and where they fit in. I just don't like being the guy on the buy-side that has to bid against five other people for the same property. So, we typically go right to the owners. Don: When you get into a mobile home park and you see that it needs a lot of work, what would you say the price per pad? Of course, I know it depends on many factors that condition but what would you say is the dollar amount you have to renovate in case you have to put roads, in case you have to work on electricity and work on the septic tanks? Kevin: I can tell you what we do as far as like setting reserves aside on an annual basis per lot per year, we set aside a certain amount of money for ongoing capital reserve items, right but as far as like day one, what's needed. It's all across the board. This park here in Texas is going to be half a million dollars, we closed on the park just a couple of months ago up in Indiana. Its pristine man. It's so nice. We're kind of joking with where do we spend 10 thousand dollars. There's not much to do at all and all the water and sewers directly built by the city, public utilities built by the city, the roads are the perfect shape, all the structures are in good shape. So, we are not putting hardly any money into and it's not because we don't want to because there's nothing to do to it, there are no improvements that make. Now that was a good deal. It's probably one of the nicest parks we own. It's gorgeous. It's an 85 lot park, 42 the lots are occupied. It's all double wides. Hundred percent double wides. We paid 750 for it. Lot rents are $317 a month in direct build city, water, city sewer. All the 85 lots are developed, all the infrastructure hookups are there for 85 homes.  However, there's only 42 in there. I'm not sure the story behind why it never really truly got off the ground, but it's a very high-end community. In fact, despite one of the nicer neighborhoods in this area to live even nicer than some stick-built homes. Some people just don't know what the heck they're doing. I mean, the guy was nice, the seller. He had known for seven years. There were three vacant double wides and then a fourth vacant double, which is the office. They have a nice office there, which will keep it as an office but it's a big double-wide so that came with the sales probably $50,000 home. And three other vacant double wides had over the last seven years, people had just abandoned. This guy never did anything with them. They have just been sitting there locked up, kind of preserved, you know, they all need some rehab. But we just got done rehabbing the first one couple weeks ago, we sold it for $23,900. Put about $9000 into it, and we got it for free. We're renovating the second one right now or I'll put about 10 or 11 into it and total renovation. And it'll probably sell for $24900. And then the third one about the same price point. So, the guy never does anything. He's double eyes. They just sat there money going down the drain. Yeah, yeah, that was a cold call effort. Don: You're going to fill out all the lots, right? Kevin: We haven't fully decided yet. I don't know what we're trying to wait and see. We bought it with the intent that it made sense even without infilling lots because it's a small town. So, we didn't run the performer based on Hey, we got to fill in X amount of loss per year because I just don't know what the demand. I'm not sure yet as to what that demand looks like and how many homes we could sell a year.  So, what we're trying to use as a determining factor is how fast he's used mobile homes will sell the ones that we acquired through the sale. As we renovate them, if I got people showing up left and right on these next couple of deals with $25,000 cash in hand, they'll tell me that there's at least a market for probably $25,000 to $35,000 homes. However, I'm still not dead set on that there's a market for $60,000 or $70,000 homes. So anyway, the next couple of months will tell us a lot as to what kind of money people have that live there. And then that will help us decide what the next steps are as far as in filling that community. So that's the plan. I just don't know how many homes a year will be that we bring in. Don: I also don't like specifically on mobile home parks talking to brokers. So, I'm also calling and doing cold calls and talking directly with sellers and I have found out that it's probably the best way to do this in this space. I don't know why, I mean in multifamily, it wasn't working quite well for me when I was trying to call the owners directly but in mobile home parks, it does. For some reason, you call people and they're nice. Why do you think that is? Kevin: I don't like being cold-called. I hate being cold-called. However, one of my business partners that I own some of my private portfolio with, he picks up the phone, anyone calls. He also talked about a lot of the owners are still of the older generation, like our parent's generation. They're nicer, they're friendlier. They're used to having conversations in person, not just on a text message. Back in their day, how they communicated, right, they spoke with each other, they had an open line of dialogue. So I think that's why 15 years from now, I think that you might find that a completely different story, as far as mobile home parks are concerned, like who the owners are on the other side and are you able to have good quality conversations with them or is it just going to be in order to take on the other side, and you will never be able to get to the decision-maker. Don: So, what do you think is the best way for somebody who's trying to learn that asset class? What do you think they should do? Is it listening to podcasts and reading books? Where do you think it is the best information? Kevin: Education is the start with everything right? Thank God today we have podcasts. There's so much free information out there. We've got a mobile home park-specific podcasts, we've got 100 plus episodes. Lots of our earlier episodes are very granular. They go into like the operational side, we go into very deep intricacies on the finding the value and underwriting a park. Go listen to, you know, the hundreds of hours where the podcasts that are out there ours and there are other ones as well that are good. There are places like bigger pockets that have a dedicated mobile home park section of their forum. There's another dedicated mobile home park forum out there, you know, so there are lots of places to get free information.  However, at some point in time, it's a matter of actively doing something. And sometimes it doesn't mean by yourself. I've always had partnerships, I enjoy it. I know what my strengths are, I know my weaknesses are. No one's good at everything. So being able to identify someone who's out there already doing it can help fast track your success in the space, find out what their weaknesses are. And maybe that's where your strengths lie, and your team up with something that's already got a little bit of traction, and has already done some deals or they're doing deals currently. You can kind of dive in and help them grow their business. That's a much faster way to do it then going at it all by yourself. However, some people don't want to partner they want to go at themselves, but you gotta take action some point of time. I'm going to buy a deal and everything that you've learned in theory, you know, will come into play. However, you'll learn things that don't pan out exactly how they did theoretically right? You learned by being in the trenches and doing a deal. Don: Of course. So, in case anybody wants to get in touch with you and kind of do something together, what is the best way to connect with you? Kevin: They can find me on my website. It's Kevinbupp.com. I do two weekly podcasts. One's real estate investing for cash flow. It's a commercial real estate investing podcast, you can find that on the kevinbupp.com website, or company website is sunrisecapitalinvestors.com. So if you want to see what we got going on the mobile home park space, that's where you can find that. And then we also have a mobile home park investing podcast. You can find any of our podcasts on iTunes, you just search my name, or search mobile home parks or real estate investing, you'll find it there. I'm not too hard to track down, Don. So, between a couple of those ways, yeah, they can't find me then they're not looking hard enough. Don: Okay. Well, Kevin, I want to thank you for being on the show today. And we appreciate all the insights you gave us. Kevin: Yeah. Thanks, Don. Thanks for having it's been a lot of fun. Don: All right. Thank you. Have a great day. Lady: Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time.