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Buckland Wood is no ordinary wood. This is magical temperate rainforest, a rare habitat not just in the UK but in the world. Cloaked in lush lichens and mosses, dotted with stone walls and bridges and with a beautiful river rambling through, it already looks and feels like a special place. But the Trust has big plans for its future. Join us to explore with rainforest guru Sam, who tells us about the bid to restore this globally important site and its huge potential to connect people with nature, store carbon and boost biodiversity. Hear why temperate rainforests are so special, along with pine marten reintroductions, backpacks on beetles and much more! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: For today's woodland walk, we are heading into the rainforest, but I am not going very far. Well, I'm going quite far, but not to the Amazon, or South America. I'm going to to the temperate rainforest, which isn't as well known, but is actually even rarer than the tropical rainforest. It's also known as Atlantic or Celtic rainforest. And as I said, exceptionally rare. You do find it on the West Coast of Scotland, North and West Wales, Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, parts of Northern Ireland, which sounds like a long list, but it really isn't. And what's wonderful actually is that Britain is really the place in the world to find these things. We have a very high proportion of the global area of temperate rainforest. I'm heading to Devon to see some temperate rainforests. Anyway, enough from me. Let's go talk to an expert about Devon's temperate and exciting rainforest.  Sam: So I'm Sam Manning. I'm the project officer for the Woodland Trust Rainforest Recovery Project. We are here in Buckland Wood, which is a new Woodland Trust acquisition on Dartmoor in the Dart Valley.  Adam: Fantastic. And it's it's super new because the place we came down didn't seem to have a sign on it or anything. So when did the Trust acquire this?  Sam: So we've literally just acquired this this month and it's an extension really of two other sites that we own in the Dart Valley, Ausewell Wood, which we bought about five years ago and Grey Park Wood, which we've owned for a couple of decades.  Adam: Right. And and what are we gonna do? Where are you taking me today?  Sam: So we're going to have a walk around the wood and I'm going to show you some of the aspects of the restoration work that we have planned here, we're going to go down to the Dart River, which is a really special river. It's 26 miles long. Very, very ecologically biodiverse, very important for, in terms of temperate rainforest, and look at how we can restore that through various different natural flood management methods.  Adam: Right. Lead on, Sir. So you already mentioned the keyword temperate rainforest. Is that what this is?  Sam: Yeah. So this is sort of prime what we call hyper-oceanic temperate rainforest.  Adam: You just have to say that slowly. Hypo what?  Sam: Hyper-oceanic.   Adam: Hyper-oceanic, OK.  Sam: Yes. So there's there's two different kinds of temperate rainforest broadly. There's southern oceanic, which is any rainforest woodland that receives over 1.5 metres of rainfall a year.  Adam: Right.  Sam: Or hyper-oceanic and that is 1.8 metres of rainfall and above, so slightly techy and scientific. But what it means is is that you get two distinctly different communities of lichens or lower plants, which is what makes these woodlands particularly special.  Adam: Sorry, I've already forgotten. Are we in the rain type of temperate rainforest that gets more rain or less rain?  Sam: More rain.  Adam: More rain.   Sam: Yeah it rains a lot here.   Adam: So that's the the non-oceanic one gets more rain.  Sam: The hyper-oceanic gets a lot of rain, yeah.  Adam: Hyper-oceanic. OK, so you can see I'm a poor student. OK. So, but luckily extraordinary, I mean, it's a bit there's a chill, but it's it has been lovely weather and it's definitely dry today.  Sam: Hmm yeah, this is this is quite strange for Dartmoor really, I think this is sort of the driest March in 60 years or something. So we are we are beginning to experience much, much drier springs and summers, but one of the functions of these rainforests is they are very, very good at producing their own rain and and in 2020, during the COVID lockdown, there was a real blue sky dry sort of drought level day in that March-April period. And I remember walking through this valley in the middle of the day and there was a thunderstorm and that was occurring nowhere else even in Devon or the wider country. And that's because they're effectively these sponges that accumulate a lot of rain in winter, store them, and then produce them more in summer.  Adam: Wow. And and I mean also we we think of rainforests as basically Brazil I suppose. But but we have temperate rainforests in the UK and my understanding is, I mean, they're extraordinarily rare on a, not just the UK, a global level. Just give us a sense of how special and unusual these environments are.  Sam: Yeah, that's right. So they're they're found only on 1% of the earth's land surface. So they are rarer by area than tropical rainforest.  Adam: Right. Do you happen to know? Sorry, are we going down there?   Sam: Down there yeah.   Adam: OK, so 1% temperate rainforests. Do you know what tropical rainforests are to give us a sense of proportion?  Sam: I actually don't know that, but I suspect it's probably around somewhere between 10-15%.  Adam: OK, well, I'm not gonna hold you to that *both laugh* but but that gives us a sort of sense of just how rare these are and tropical rainforests are fairly rare anyway, but OK. So these are very, very unusual environments. And what are you trying to do here then?  Sam: Well, a lot of these temperate rainforests are ancient woodlands, but they are plantations on ancient woodlands, so they are woodlands that have existed in perpetuity for as long as records go back. But a lot of them, as you can see here, have been coniferised, so they would have been cleared of their native tree species like oak, to be replaced by non-native timber crops from places like the Pacific Northwest, which which that's also ironically a temperate rainforest landscape, but those species are not co-adapted to the species we have here. So you you get these plantations that are very, very unbiodiverse, very dark, very shading and really don't work in tandem with a lot of the light-demanding rainforest species that we have, like rowans, hawthorns, oaks, that kind of thing. Of those sites I've talked about, almost half of it is conifer.  Adam: So your your first job, ironically, is to take trees out?  Sam: Well there'll be a sort of two-pronged approach really of using natural processes to diversify the forest, make it more structured, diverse. But we will need to intervene at certain times, particularly if we have really, really rare species. So in Ausewell for example, there's a species of lichen called bacidia subturgidula, so it's got a mad Latin name,   Adam: Wow, OK I'm definitely not saying that *laughs*  Sam: *laughs* But that species, for example, we have a quarter of the entire world's population of that species of lichen in Ausewell.  Adam: Right in Ausewell, which is quite a small place.  Sam: Yeah, exactly. That's about 100 hectares, so...  Adam: And that's a quarter of the global population of this lichen is in that...  Sam: Of that species, yeah. So when it comes to that, it's really about almost surgically intervening.  Adam: That's interesting. Let's let's carry on, you you better lead on, I've no idea where I'm going. So but that's interesting because I I can see planting trees, I've never heard of people actually planting like them, I didn't think that was even possible.  Sam: Yeah. So we call it translocation and and that's really only a last a last sort of nuclear option really when it comes to lichen conservation, if we have a tree where they have a really, really rare form of, a rare population of a species, then moving that to another tree may be the difference between that going extinct or not. But here now we've had this happen, what we're going to be doing is seeding it with those rainforest tree species to start to get that regeneration and there's loads over here.  Adam: What I'm still not clear about is why is the rainforest so special? It might be, oh it gets a lot of rain, who cares? A place gets a lot of rain, so does Wales, so does a lot of bits of London. It's clearly something special, it's not the trees, so what, why is having a temperate rainforest actually a good thing, what makes it special?  Sam: Well, there's there's there's a few different things. One of them is, and this is the real key one we focus on, is the biodiversity value. So the real bad, Britain in general is quite a wildlife poor place. We have quite a low species diversity, but these rainforests are absolute wells of biodiversity globally. The key ones are these epiphytes, so we're talking about lichens, bryophytes, so those are the mosses, liverworts and hornworts. Britain has over 2,000 species of lichen, it's one of the most biodiverse places on Earth in terms of lichen species, so we're really punching above our weight in terms of biodiversity in that sense, and they're only really found in these temperate rainforest habitats.  Adam: And lichen, I love lichen, and it's a real sign of air purity and everything, they're beautiful. How much do they support, like wildlife? I'm not aware of animals feeding off lichen very much, I don't think it has much nutrients in it?  Sam: Not too much at a macro level, but if you were to delve into that microscopic world, they are absolute keystone species in terms of forming the bedrock for so many invertebrates for so much sort of microbes. But they're also functionally, and this is something I'm I'm really passionate about, is looking at these forests in terms of what they can give to us functionally and the environment functionally, they are really good at fixing nitrogen. They're very, very good at fixing carbon, but but so in terms, that's what that's what makes temperate rainforest really good in terms of climate change mitigation is they hold that water, but they also are incredible carbon stores far more carbon is stored in these forests than traditional forests in the UK.  Adam: And that's lichens playing a big role in this?  Sam: A huge part, yeah, because of the pure, like the biomass of those lichens and mosses.  Adam: Ohh interesting. OK, so where are we going?  Sam: So I would quite like to go down to that river.  Adam: I'd love to go down to the river! Can I just ask, we're not going that way, are we??  Sam: No, I think we're gonna, that's one we may drive down, I think.  Adam: Drive down there?? No no we're not going to drive down there, that's not possible! *both laugh*  Sam: Yeah, we might have to go to a scenic detour around.   Adam: OK, well, there let's go down to the river. You have to lead. You look like...  Sam: So I think if we head up back to the car, shoot down, yeah.  Adam: OK. Ohh I see. OK, OK. But we're not driving down this this hill.  Sam: No, no, I think let's go down to the main Dart actually and then you can...  Adam: OK. And then get and get back, OK. Brilliant. We have come down to the river, remind me what the river is called?   Sam: This is the Webburn.   Adam: The Webburn, which leads into the Dart. We are on proper Hobbit territory now. A moss-covered stone bridge over the Webburn. We passed a little a beautiful little cottage, actually there's a number of beautiful cottages here. So explain a bit about where we are.  Sam: So we're stood on the Webburn, the Webburn watercourse and just behind us is the confluence of where it enters the Dart River and this kind of where it feeds into our aspirations for the restoration of the site. It's what many people would consider to be quite a natural looking river or natural looking watercourse. But this really as you can see it's very straight, it's very cut down into into the ground. So we call that incision and that's a product of centuries of draining and of artificial domestication of this watercourse to allow the land around it to be drier, which makes it more kind of productive for forestry.  Adam: So that's not natural?   Sam: No.  Adam: Are you gonna do anything about that? I feel like a teacher, ‘are you going to do anything about that?'!  Sam: *laughs* That that is the plan.  Adam: How how do you change, I mean, the river has cut, therefore quite a a deep edge into the land. What would you be able to do to to change that then?  Sam: Yeah. So a couple of years ago I went out to the Pacific Northwest, Canada, Vancouver Island to see their temperate rainforest and have a look at how old growth sort of ancient temperate rainforests function, but also how they restore them. And they, I asked them to take me to a river that was their best example of a really healthy rainforest river with really good salmon populations with great biodiversity that would have been unaffected by humans. And they took me to a place called Lost Shoe Creek. And and from the bottom of the watercourse where it entered the sea to the head waters, it was, you couldn't see the water. It was absolutely covered in wood, so huge trees that had fallen in, trees bank to bank, pinned against the bank. And what that does is it creates a much more dynamic river system that doesn't go in a straight line, but also holds back a lot of the gravel with the sediment and the silt that in this kind of river is making its way to the ocean. And causing a lot of damage.  Adam: So it's allowing or maybe placing actual dead trees into into the water and we can see one tree's already there, presumably that just naturally fell in.  Sam: That's right. Yeah. So if we left this for 1,000 years, it would fill, it would be effectively be a giant log jam, and we'd start to get a lot of that naturalised process happening. And then you get much more biodiversity because there's more invertebrates in the river, there's more shelter for fish and birds, there's more habitat. But what we're effectively planning on doing is is doing something what people call stage zero restoration, so taking,  accelerating that that thousand-year process and taking it back to a more naturalised river.  Adam: It's such a a spot. I think it's time for a bit of social media video, so I'll film that and you can see that on the Woodland Trust and my sites, and then we'll crack on. Sorry, I know this is really important, but this is an amazing fallen tree over a drystone wall covered in moss, I mean, I just had to stop for a moment. Look, you talked about lichen. I know, I ask you a question then stop you answering it *both laugh*. I love this lichen, it's all on this tree. It is really, really beautiful.  Sam: So this is called seastorm lichen which is one of the few lichens that has actually a romantic sort of English name that isn't Latin.  Adam: Wow. Well, very cool. Whilst you're talking, I'm gonna take a photo. OK. Yeah, go on, seastorm lichen.   Sam: Yeah, and and so a lot of the lichens will, as you can see, grow on the branches where the light is greater. So there's almost a canopy world of biodiversity up there, and what we're doing by increasing the light levels is, is drawing these lichens down to the forest floor by increasing the light levels. But this is a really, really good example of the kind of levels of deadwood we actually want to aspire to. So in, as you can see, in most of the forest, it's completely denuded of deadwood. So we'd be lucky if we get sort of 5 cubic metres of wood per hectare. In the forest of, the temperate rainforests of Canada, they have sort of 600 cubic metres a hectare of deadwood. So you you could barely even move through their forest.  Adam: And that's super, because often people want the deadwood cleared cause you go, ‘oh well it's untidy', but that's a sort of oasis of of biodiversity.  Sam: That's right. It's a whole layer of ecology that we're missing from our forests. And we recently did a study on something called the blue ground beetle, which is a an endemic rare species to temperate rainforests. We didn't know where they went in the day, so we didn't really know anything about them, they're very elusive. They come out at night, walk up the trees, and they reflect the moon off of their blue, kind of shiny carapace. They're our biggest beetle. So we did a study with Exeter University where we put GPS tracking backpacks on them.  Adam: On a beetle?  Sam: On a beetle, to find out where they went. And lo and behold, we found that they were going into these deadwood habitats and so it just it just shone a light on how important increasing deadwood in these forests is for all of those species.  Adam: Amazing. All right. I I do encourage you to follow the Woodland Trust's social media, Insta and all the rest of them and my Bluesky and Twitter or X or whatever it is you wanna do. And I'm now gonna take a photo which hopefully you'll see on any of that social media. So do follow them all. And we're going to take a pause as I pose *laughs*. Right, I'm back from my photographic expedition. Right. So you can answer the question again now about this public debate about access and and what have you. Go on, you lead on whilst we're talking.  Sam: So yeah, Dartmoor is really kind of the centre of gravity for a wider story around public, an increasing demand from the public to access land for wellbeing, recreation, connection to nature, that has been kind of growing here, particularly in this area.  Adam: Right.  Sam: There are, I think we actually sorry, we do need to go that way, I think they've blocked the path.  Adam: OK fair enough.  Sam: We're not having to scramble.  Adam: And I think we're going back to where we came from. Alright. Although that path there looks blocked.   Sam: This one looks good. Yeah.  Adam: Oh OK.  Sam: Go through this end.   Adam: Through the little stone wall. OK. Ruby's following doing social media. Ohh OK. Yeah, sorry, carry on.  Sam: So, I suppose the concern of some people might be that increasing footfall, public access to these really important fragments of temperate rainforest, it could have a damaging effect on the biodiversity here. But the reality is that in order for people to connect with, understand and care about nature, they need to have access to it. And so we need to bring people into these habitats in a sensitive and considered way to educate people about them, but the other key thing is we need to expand these habitats. So we're part of something called the South West Rainforest Alliance. And our goal collectively is to increase the amount of temperate rainforest in Devon and Cornwall, to triple it by 2050.  Adam: OK. I mean that's worth pausing on that for a moment. That's an extraordinary task. I mean it sounds a bit, I have to say I'm a bit sceptical about that, it sounds like you plucked that out the air. How on earth would you get to tripling the cover you've got?  Sam: Well, we think we can do that mostly through buffering existing temporate rainforest, so planting around them which can then make those bigger, better, more connected, but also just by introducing trees into farmed landscapes but not in a way that damages the farming. So agroforestry. But also the inclusion of hedgerows that connect up those fragments and there's been a lot of work that's being done currently in partnership with Plymouth University to model how we would do that effectively.  Adam: And the other thing that strikes me when we talk about ancient woodland, we're talking about, well, we can't create ancient woodlands, the clue's in the name, it's got to be ancient. It is different for temperate rainforests, isn't it? These things which I've heard about are achievable in a relatively short period of time. Is that right?  Sam: That's right. So we think we can create new temperate rainforest within our lifetime. So within a kind of 40-50 year woodland establishment phase and as part of the Rainforest Recovery Project, we have a strand of work that we're calling the temperate rainforest creation trials and that includes long term scientific research to tell us how best we can create rainforest the quickest. So is it doing closed canopy woodlands like this or is it individual trees in farmland? Or is it open space woodlands or maybe even natural regeneration?  Adam: Amazing. We're by the river. Let's move on with our tales from the riverbank. One thing I I wanted to ask you, I arrived here last night. And I met well, an old friend of mine called Chris Salisbury, who runs a local sort of adventure, an ecological company, taking people for adventures in the woods and telling stories and all sorts of really interesting things, and he was telling me two things that he's noted. One is the reintroduction of pine martens which I think is talked about, but also he's seen wild boar in these woods and I've never heard of that. Are those, have have you come across those stories?  Sam: Yes, so we were actually involved in the reintroduction of pine martens last year and that was a partnership between us and Devon Wildlife Trust and various other charities. And and that was a sort of very controlled planned, strategic reintroduction of a species that's been really successful. We've brought the public along with us, and they're now part of that increasingly biodiverse and resilient temperate rainforest landscape.  Adam: Right before we move on to wild boar, just educate me, what is a pine marten? Not sure, not entirely sure I know what one is.  Sam: A pine marten is a mustelid, so it's in the same family as sort of the badger, the stoat, the weasel.   Adam: Right, what's it look like?  Sam: It's it's sort of the size of a small cat, it's brown with a white bib and it looks quite a lot like a weasel, but it's larger, but they're very much arboreal mammals, so they spend most of their time in the trees.  Adam: And were they native to this land?   Sam: Yes they were.  Adam: Hunted out were they?  Sam: Hunted to extinction for their pelts and and things like that. Yeah.  Adam: So you're reintroducing them. How successful has that been?  Sam: That's been really successful. So we've reintroduced 15 animals to Dartmoor last year and we think that that will be enough of a seed population for them to start spreading naturally now.  Adam: OK. And I've heard about what, the reintroduction in other parts of the country of pine martens. Wild boar. A a harder issue I would have thought ‘cause these are quite big beasts?   Sam: Yes.  Adam: Did, did any, presumably the Trust didn't introduce them? No.  Sam: No. So they haven't been, in the same way as pine martens were, formally introduced. There's been more of a sort of natural creep, or in some cases, so there's a term that people use now called ‘beaver bombing', which which people use completely straight faced in a lot of circles now. And that is effectively guerilla reintroduction of species.  Adam: Right. OK. So these are just people who feel that they should be rewilded and just did it without any any authority or talking to the local community they just brought them in?  Sam: Exactly without going through that sort of more defined process.  Adam: And and look, clearly this is not a Woodland Trust policy, so I'm not asking you to defend it, but but the effect of that, I mean, have you noticed anything?  Sam: I think, I mean, it's a huge subject, but I think in general, if you don't bring communities along with you by educating them, by mitigating the effect of a species, it it can damage the movement in in the longer term. The other thing I'd say about boar and those larger sort of herbivores, which would have been a really important part of our ecosystem for diversifying them and keeping that process going, they will really struggle unless we have bigger, better, more connected woodlands that are more natural anyway.  Adam: Right. I understand. So we're just going through talking about this being the rainforest, but it has been amazingly dry in the spring and now you can hear that in the crunchy undergrowth of very dry leaves. You're gonna, I'm I'm an idiot anyway, but I'm concentrating on too many things so I've forgotten the name of the river for the third time *laughs*.  Sam: It's the Webburn.  Adam: The Webburn, why can't I remember the Webburn? All right. We've come down to the Webburn, to the riverbank side. It's beautifully clear this water, isn't it? There I mean it, it's it's wonderful clear. I so want to stand in that and then I'll have wet feet for the rest of the day and the journey back to London. So I'm not going to do that. How much of a threat is this sort of environment under?  Sam: So temperate rainforest once covered about 20% of the UK and they would have clothed our western seaboard which receives that amazing sort of oceanic rainfall and temperature we've been talking about. That's been reduced now to about 2% in the UK.   Adam: OK, from 20 to 2%?  Sam: From 20 to 2, so 90% loss.   Adam: Over what sort of period?  Sam: So we're talking about millennia really. So this is they would have been at their zenith about 5,000, 6,000 years ago during the Bronze Age and that progressive multi-generation story of increasing farming, of draining, of forestry, has led to the fragmentation that we see today. In Devon and Cornwall, we think it would have covered about 75%. That's now been reduced to about 8%. So a similar 90% loss both regionally and nationally.  Adam: And are you optimistic that that's about to change? Are we now seeing a different story?  Sam: I feel really optimistic, but mostly that's because I think we're facing a lot of these holistic problems at the moment around the biodiversity crisis, around climate change, and I think rainforests are an actually incredibly cheap, scalable way of restoring nature, which will help us with the biodiversity crisis, but also protect communities from climate change. By doing some of this rewetting work, by increasing increasing tree cover, we can massively reduce flooding and massively mitigate the effect of drought on our farming and on our communities as it gets worse. We are hoping to raise £2.8 million to help us achieve the goals we have here and and the site will be open once we've achieved that goal towards the end of the year. And people can go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest to find more about that appeal.  Adam: So just repeat that website again so if people want, if they, if you've got your pen or your computer keyboard ready, here is the website to go to.  Sam: Thats woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest  Adam: And they can learn learn more about it, but also contribute there can they?  Sam: That's right. Yeah. And if they want to learn more about the Rainforest Recovery Project, we are launching a website this week called rainforestrecovery.org.uk.  Adam: So by the time you hear this podcast, all of that will be available to you at the moment I can edit it all together. It is an amazing, amazing site. I am really privileged to be here. What a wonderful place. Sam, thank you very much indeed.  Sam: You're welcome.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Spring is in the air! Join us at Londonthorpe Wood, Lincolnshire to enjoy the wellbeing benefits of woods while using all our senses to check for signs of spring. We seek out frogspawn, song thrushes and blackthorn blossom for Nature's Calendar, a citizen science phenology project which tracks the effects of weather and climate change on nature across the UK. Keeping your eyes and ears peeled to record for Nature's Calendar doesn't just support science. Discover new research that shows how engaging all our senses on a woodland walk is good for our wellbeing, and how different levels of biodiversity in each wood can impact the positive effects of being in nature. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, this month I'm off to Grantham in Lincolnshire, which is a bit to the right of Nottingham and quite a bit below Sheffield, if you're not clear on your geography. Anyway, I'm here to investigate a Woodland Trust project called Nature's Calendar, which tracks how the seasons are changing over time and if, for instance, the timing of spring is starting earlier. Now, if that is happening, that's not a minor thing, because all of nature depends on, well, the rest of all of nature. So if one thing changes, it can cause big changes everywhere. Now, this is all part of citizen science, and if you don't know that phrase or haven't heard it before, it means the data is collected from people of all ages, backgrounds, abilities, not necessarily by scientists, in fact, probably not by scientists. Anyone can volunteer and the volunteering work is incredibly important. Volunteers have been recording the changing seasons with Nature's Calendar for 20 years, and the database they have built contains 2.9 million records. It's believed to be the longest written biological record of its kind in the UK, and it's used by researchers from across the world to explore the effects of weather and climate on timings in wildlife. And a brief word for those who like new words, here's one for you: phenology. That's what this project is all about. The study of seasonal changes in plants and animals from year to year. Phenology. Now, that word was invented by a botanist called Charles Morren in around 1849. But even before they had a name for it, people were busy recording what was happening in nature and Britain was really at the forefront of much of this work. Robert Marsham was Britain's first phenologist, doing his work before the name was invented for his field of study, and he recorded his quote ‘indications of spring' from around the year 1736. Anyway, all of that is a huge historical meander so let's get to the events of today with a real meander around Londonthorpe Woods with one of the Woodland Trust's experts. Here we are. Whenever you're ready! Sally: Okay, I'm Sally Bavin. I'm a monitoring and evaluation adviser for the Woodland Trust and we are currently at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham. Adam: Right, well, thank you very much for joining me here. It's a chilly day, but we're good on the, we're good on the rain for the moment. So what is the purpose of what we're doing here? Where are you taking me today and why? Sally: We've we've come out to the woods today to enjoy some of the wellbeing benefits of visiting woodlands and particularly looking out for signs of spring using all of our senses. So, yeah, it should be quite a quite an enjoyable one. Adam: Fantastic. And this fits in with part of a campaign the Woodland Trust is running. Is that right? Sally: Absolutely, yes, so we have at the moment we're asking people to look out for the vital signs of spring, as we're calling it. So we've picked out three things of interest that are frogspawn, the song of the song thrush returning for the spring, and the first blackthorn flower. Adam: Right. And that's what we're going to try and spot today. Sally: We will have a go. Yeah, we might be a bit early for some, but this is the the interesting thing to see what's out and about at the moment. Adam: And on a previous podcast we were here together looking to sort of identify trees. I'm going to be super impressed if you can identify birdsong as well. Are you good at that? Sally: Well, I know the song thrush. That's the one we're listening out for *laughs* so I'm not too bad. You'll have to test me as we go along. Adam: Okay, so we're at Londonthorpe Woods, which is, happens to be near Grantham, which is where the Woodland Trust is actually based. So all very lovely. Which way? Sally: I assume we're editing lots of… Adam: No, no, no, all this confusion is, is in *both laugh*. That way. Sally: Okay. Adam: Right. If you're hearing noises off, it's because Alex from the Trust is joining us. She's part of the brains of the operation and also doing social media videos. So I'm gonna look particularly daft with my, headset on, talking into a little box. Anyway, so, okay well, we're already leaving the woodlands. That was a quick visit. We're crossing the road. Is it because there's a pond over here? Sally: Yes. So the first thing we're going to look for, is frogspawn. And as we are walking towards the pond, I could tell you about some research that the Woodland Trust has funded, but let's wait till we get away from the road. Adam: I was gonna say we just crossed not a very busy road that got very busy as we were crossing it. Okay, let's go through here, away from the road and into another bit of woodland. Sally: So I think to get to the pond, I think it's that way. And then that way. Adam: Okay, you're not filling me with confidence. You've only taken two directions, and you're not sure of either of them at the moment, but okay *both laugh* Sally: Yeah. So as we're walking along, the idea is to be using all of your senses to engage with the landscape that we're in. So I've just seen a robin fly past there, but, yeah so… Adam: But robins aren't a sign of spring? Sally: They sing all year round, they're a good constant through the winter. Thank goodness for the robin otherwise we wouldn't really have much birdsong in the winter at all. Adam: And they look lovely, robins, but actually they're they're quite territorial, they've, a lot of them come to my bird feeder in my garden and they're, they're proper brave! I mean, I'll go out and the robin looks at me like, come on, get the nuts out, get the seed, they're not scared. They're quite territorial, looks like quite territorial birds, I think. But go on, you you were wanting to tell me? Sally: So one of the birds that we're listening for is the song thrush. That is because, it's a bird, which generally, it starts singing early spring, and it's a species that's been recorded for Nature's Calendar for many years now. So it's one that we're asking people to look out, to listen out for even, engaging all your senses, because it's quite a distinctive song, so if we do hear one, then that would be great. Adam: And then where do they go then, in the winter, then, migratory, migratory, oh, gosh, I can't even say that word properly. But anyway, they're not always here, perhaps is a better way to describe them. Sally: We do have resident song thrush, but it's the singing behavior that starts in the spring. Adam: Oh does it? And is that all about attracting, you know, mates? Sally: Yeah, yeah, it's the the springtime rush for romance, yeah. Adam: Right okay and is it the boys or the girls doing the singing? Or is it both? Sally: I believe it's the males, but, yeah, I'll have to check that one. Adam: Okay. I'll check. Sally: It's usually the males. Adam: Is it? Okay. Sally: But the robins are the exception where females and males both sing. Adam: Actually, do you know what? I've got such a bad memory, but I, we came here, and I remember stopping at this tree because I think you were explaining to me, was it, a little, I've forgotten the name, but the things that you crush up and make ink with that Shakespeare used to write in. Sally: Ah, oak galls. Adam: Oak galls! Oak galls. And I think they were around here. No, this is not an oak? Sally: No… Adam: Okay. But this is, that's right, I think oak galls, which was a great little episode all about, and I've got one on my desk still from this woodland. Sally: Oh, you've not used it for writing yet? Adam: I haven't ground it up to try and make ink, no. Anyway, sorry, I was interrupting. So yes so so the birds don't leave us, but they do start singing, right? A very muddy bit. Sally: Very muddy. Adam: Okay, you might hear some squelching. Oh, blimey. Sally: So that's some good sensory experience there as well all the squelchy mud. Adam: Okay, so tell me a bit about, this woodland that we're in whilst we're going up to find the pond. Sally: So this is Londonthorpe Wood. It's the closest woodland to our Grantham head office, which is lovely. It was it's a woodland creation site, but it's getting, on I think it's roughly about 30 years, probably since it was planted now. So, it's really, you know, well established now, we can start to see lots of different types of habitats. We've got some glades, which is open areas within the woodland, with some nice grassland habitat. There's some dense areas, like these sort of thickets of blackthorn, which we could be checking for blossom. I can't actually see any at the moment yet. I think we're perhaps a bit too too early. Adam: Well, we're going just off the beaten track a bit here into a lovely pond area where, oh, it's it's actually, this is an outdoor classroom it says, so we'll go through this gate and walking up here, there's a good sized pond and a platform, I've lost the word, a wooden platform so you can sort of stand out a bit and it's here that we're hoping to see frogspawn, one of the early signs of spring, even though it's a bit chilly today. So we'll have a, yeah, I'm already getting a shake of the head so okay. Which is a shame, because it looks like there are no frogspawn here at the moment. So one of the early signs of spring is not here. But I suppose just the absence of that spring, is itself interesting, I mean, and in itself, one observation, of course, isn't scientifically significant, but actually, I think what is perhaps really important is that, global warming, changing seasons aren't linear. So we're also getting we may be getting an early spring, but also we're getting more volatile periods perhaps. So it's just up and down. And perhaps that's what we're seeing anyway. No, no frogspawn today. Let's move on. Sally: It's an unusually hilly wood for Lincolnshire. Adam: Yeah. Oh, right. Is Lincolnshire, meant to be fairly flat? Sally: A lot of it's flat, yeah, but Grantham is on this, sort of geological feature called the Lincoln Edge, and it's sort of one big long hill that runs through the county, sort of south to north. And we just happened to be, have found it to climb. Adam: Right. So what is the purpose of this then? Presumably it's partly scientific because you're getting data from a from a lot of people around the country. Is it something else apart from that? Sally: Nature's Calendar as a project? Yeah, so, like you say, it's it's primarily it was set up to be a phenology project. So studying how the changing climate is affecting the changing seasonal events and affecting what time of year they occur. But it's also a really good opportunity for, because obviously it's volunteers that, you know, look out for these things and we need eyes and ears all over the country looking out for these things, and something that you get back from it as a volunteer, is that opportunity to have that bit of extra motivation to keep your eyes and ears out, looking at nature regularly, and with a sense of purpose to do that, which I think is a really good opportunity for people to, to help their own wellbeing. So it just kind of really fits well with what we know from research is, the way to get the most out of time in nature, which is using your senses to engage with it, finding meaning in it, and connecting with other people around it as well. So you become part of this, you know, community of people contributing and giving back as well. So you're providing your data that's, you know, an opportunity for you to, to contribute to something bigger than yourself and to, to have that sense of purpose, with what you're doing. So it just brings it more, yeah, it brings it alive for people, I think, because a walk in the woods, if you're not necessarily engaging with your surroundings, you could miss a lot of the beneficial species that that research showed when people engage with them, they really benefit from. Adam: Brilliant. Sally: I, I, one thing, oh, shall we sit on this log, that'd be a nice little, I mean, it looks a bit prickly around it, but nice to just sit and chat because we've had a lot of hills! Adam: It does have a lot of, yeah, we have had a lot of hills. Sally: So the research that the Woodland Trust funded, I just wanted to talk about what we're hoping to actually do with these findings and sort of why it's all important. So, the mapping that the researchers at the University of Kent have done, to identify those hotspots of, where woodlands are really rich in biodiversity and the biodiversity that people relate to for wellbeing experiences, it really it fits in with the Woodland Trust's focus on being really interested and driven to improve the quality of woodlands rather than just the quantity. So while we do need to increase woodland cover, as you know, just pure hectarage, we need more woodlands, it's really about the quality of those woodlands that we're creating and protecting and restoring woodlands that we already have. So this research really shows how it's important for people that the quality of woodlands is there. Just it just shows how important things like our new woodland creation guide are, which, set out guidelines for how to create a new woodland in a way that's most likely to help it develop into a woodland that's going to be thriving with wildlife in the future. Adam: And what sort of person gets that guide, is that just for professional sort of people who are setting up massive woodlands across the country, or is it something you you might be able to do as a community project or if you've got a large bit of land yourself? Sally: Yeah so it's available on our website so anybody can download it and it's aimed at anybody who's creating a woodland so the principles can be taken on board and scaled up or down to whatever's necessary. So, yeah, that's available on our website. Adam: And, and in the time that, that this Nature's Calendar has been running, have you noticed any differences? Sally: I've been with the Woodland Trust for five years, and so I've been recording frogspawn as my main… Adam: That's your, that's your go to. Sally: Yeah and I like it because it's very, well it's literally black and white *laughs*. You can, it's there or it's not there, one day it's there. So… Adam: And what, have you noticed anything in that time? Sally: Yeah, in my, I mean, a five year span, I suppose there's, there's quite variation and this is obviously just my one record, so it's anecdotal but but there are analysis provided on the website of all the woodlands, the, the Nature's Calendar data and yeah, so I think the first time I recorded it was about 10 March, something like that. And in some years I've recorded it as early as Valentine's Day so that's already past now so this year is obviously a later one. So you know, it, it shows that there is that, the the data from Nature's Calendar is part of it contributes to the State of UK Climate report and the JNCC Spring Index, which is the kind of, the measure that they use to look at the effect of climate change on biodiversity. Adam: Sorry what's the JNCC? Sally: JNCC is the… Joint Nature Conservation Council. That's probably, that might be wrong! Adam: Maybe, something like that. We don't guarantee that by the way, if you're listening, it's just what we think. Anyway, okay, the JNCC…*both laugh* Sally: It's a sort of government organisation. Adam: Doesn't matter, I'm sure they're very important. Anyway, the JNCC, I interrupted your your train of thought. The JNCC says what? Sally: The spring index has moved forwards by more than eight days over I think it's the last 30 years, I think is the data that they use. Adam: And is that a lot? Is that significant? I'm not sure? Sally: It's it's significant when you think that birds will time their nesting, to within a peak kind of abundance of caterpillars, which are all also dependent on the phenology of leaves emerging. Adam: And an eight day difference makes a difference? Sally: So yes, yes, studies of birds like blue tits, which we've said are, you know, so important for people's wellbeing to be able to see birds like that around, yeah studies have shown that they do suffer in years where, the, the leaves burst too early. That means the caterpillars come out too early, and then they are not in sync with that, pattern for when they're, raising their chicks in the nest because they need a huge amount of food to be able to raise to, to raise a clutch of, of chicks. And they do it over a spell of just, you know, 2 or 3 weeks. So a week is a big difference when you think that that's... Adam: Right so that makes it, okay, that's it in context. So they're they're really peak feeding for these young chicks is 2 or 3 weeks. So if, if spring is moving eight days that's over half your feeding time to get a sort of young chick away and stable, is actually there's no food. That's the difference between living and not living, presumably that's a big deal? Sally: Yep, yeah, exactly. And you know, the sort of potential knock on consequences of food chains being disrupted could go much beyond there but I think there's a lot more that we don't know yet. And that's probably just as concerning as what we do know. Adam: Okay, yeah, I didn't, I have to say when you say eight days over 30 years, I went, well, I don't know, how significant is that. But when you say they've only got two weeks to feed these chicks at their peak, that suddenly makes it much more worrying. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. Adam: Okay. All right we've had our little rest. Sally: I think we're getting rained on now aren't we. Adam: Oh are we? Oh no. Sally: I don't know I thought I felt a few spots. Adam: Right. Where to now? Now why am I asking you, you've no idea! Sally: I think this takes us to, this takes us back. Adam: You've no idea. I've got to stop asking you. Sally: We, I can remember on the… Adam: We're just going to go forward. And if you, if you find this at some future period, send our love to our families and loved ones. Sally: Yeah we're still wandering. Adam: Yeah we're wandering and we just left this under a tree. Sally: Oh, yeah, I definitely felt rain. Adam: Okay. A little bit more mud. Whoops. Yeah. My first slide. Oooh. Sally: Oh look at these. Look at the snowdrops. Adam: Oh yeah. Snowdrops. Sally: Now that's a Nature's Calendar event that you can record. But because they're already out we've missed it. Adam: Alright. Oh gosh I saw that little, there's loads of snowdrops! They're all over there. So that's an early sign of spring. Sally: Yeah so next year you have to keep an eye out before, you know, in like January. Adam: Oh so it's not a sign, it comes before spring really. The snowdrops end of winter really. Sally: Yeah. Well, it all depends where you sort of draw the line, doesn't it? It's all a continuum, really. Adam: Aren't they beautiful? Gosh. Sally: And for Nature's Calendar what you, the the key point at which you know, okay, they're officially open is when the flower is actually open like that and you can see in the middle, not, just when they poke through and they're still closed like that one. Adam: Right. Sally: Yeah. That's a lovely display of them. Adam: Yeah. All over. Look, they're on the other side of the path and all these brambles as well. Very nice. It's emerging now. Sally: Top of the hill, can see, we've got a vantage point now, see where we are, out of the woods. Okay. I think that must be about their peak. You know, we're seeing them on their best, best few days. Adam: So downhill now? He says hopefully. Sally:  Yeah. Downward stretch. Adam: Okay. All right. We're going downhill. And whoa ho ho ho ho ho ho! That's like the Vicar of Dibley when she just disappears down a hole, which is much, well it's not quite as dramatic as that, just my foot went into it, not my whole body, but, you know, I don't know if you can hear this, but there we are. It's going through my shoes. I've got wet feet. Whoa ho ho! *both laughing* Sally: This is a wet bit. We should have brought some tarpaulin just to slide down this hill shouldn't we. Adam: Sorry? Whoa! Okay, we're all going over. Oh ho ho ho ho! Sally: You're doing the splits. Adam: Give me a hand, I've got my legs going different directions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Whoa, oh whoa! *both laughing* Sorry! Sorry sorry sorry sorry about that. Sally: Oh, dear. Perhaps this was a mistake. Adam: It's not just me. Sally: I wonder if there's such a thing as mud skis. Adam: Yes. There we are. Go on then, so yeah, so what's the… Sally: What, why, why does it all matter? Adam: Why does it matter, all of this then? Sally: Well, for the Woodland Trust, it's really important to our vision and our mission, we want to create a world where woods and trees thrive for people and for nature. And so there's been quite a lot of work looking at the ecosystem services that are provided by woodlands in terms of carbon and flooding and all of those sorts of things. And a lot of mapping work has been done already to help us prioritise, you know, where is it best to create, protect and restore woods to deliver those particular priorities of different ecosystem services? But this is the first time that human wellbeing has been kind of mapped in that way, to be able to provide insight into, you know, these are the areas that need to be targeted and prioritised to increase biodiversity, particularly in areas where people have not got such high quality woodlands to visit necessarily. Adam: So an important piece of work scientifically, but a great thing for people to be involved in as well. Sally: Exactly. And and another thing that was really an interesting finding, so the researchers analysed their map of woodland wellbeing quality against the indices of multiple deprivation, which is some socio-economic data that's in a sort of mapped, format. And they looked to see whether there was a relationship between the quality of woodlands in an area and the socio-economic status. And they found that there is a relationship. So unfortunately, areas which are have a lower socio-economic status also tend to have the lower quality woodlands, which is, you know, it's not fair. And it's, something that, you know, it's opened our eyes to that to now allow us to think about, you know, how is it best to to sort of consider that when we're targeting where to create woodlands and enhance biodiversity in general. So, so yeah, it's really important for people I think, this is this is a really important piece of work, to help us deliver for, for people and nature. Adam: And if people want to get involved in spotting the early signs of spring, how should they do that? Sally: You can go to the Woodland Trust website and go to Nature's Calendar, you'll find the link on there, and there'll be all the information there about how to sign up and what different events you can record and how to do it. Lots of information on the website. *dog barks* Adam: Wonderful. We've got a keen dog who wants to get involved clearly as well. And so go to the Woodland Trust website and you can follow them on social media, Insta and the rest, no doubt as well. Thank you very much. Sally: Thank you for coming on a walk with us. Adam: Thank you. I returned to the car park muddier, a little wetter, but we have missed most of the rain so that is really good. Sally: It's just starting now. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us. And do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite Woodland Walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Grab your hot chocolate (or mulled wine!) and get into the festive spirit with our Christmas special as we meet some reindeer, talk Christmas trees and explore a small but mighty wood with huge value for nature in the snowy Cairngorms National Park. We discover fascinating reindeer facts with Tilly and friends at The Cairngorm Reindeer Centre, and step into a winter wonderland at nearby Glencharnoch Wood with site manager Ross. We learn what makes a good Christmas tree, how the wood is helping to recover the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, why the site is so important to the community and which wildlife thrive here. You can also find out which tree can effectively clone itself, and is so tasty to insects that it developed the ability to shake them off! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, today I'm in the Cairngorms in Scotland. In Scottish Gaelic, the area is called – I'm going to give this a go - Am Monadh Ruadh. Apologies for my pronunciation there, but we are in the midst of a mountain range in the Highlands, of Scotland obviously. Generally we're about 1,000 metres high here but the higher peaks I'm told get to about 1,300 metres odd, which is going on for, I don't know, 4,500 foot or so. So this is a very dramatic landscape. We have rocky outcrops, boulders, steep cliffs. It's home to bird species such as the dotterel, snow bunting, the curlew and red grouse, as well as mammals such as mountain hare. But the reason of course we are here this Christmas is because it is also home to Britain's only herd, I think, of reindeer. Now, the reindeer herder is Tilly. She is the expert here and I've been braving, I am braving the snow and icy winds to be introduced to her and the herd. And from there after that, we're going to take a drive to what I'm told is an amazing wooded landscape of Caledonian pine to talk all things pine, and of course, all things Christmas trees. But first of all, let's meet Tilly, who looks after the reindeer.  Adam: OK, we are recording.  Tilly: That's good. OK. I'd better not say anything naughty then.  Adam: I'll cut out any naughtiness, that's fine.  Tilly: This is a bit of a rustly bag. It's more rustly than normal but never mind.  Adam: What do the reindeer actually eat?  Tilly: Well, so. We're now up in their natural habitat and we're looking across a nice heathery hillside with sedges as well. You can just see them poking through the snow and they'll pick away at the old heather of the year and the sedges.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: But we manage the herd and we like to feed them. So what I've got in my bag is some food for them, which they love.  Adam: Right. And what's in your Santa sack of food now?   Tilly: Oh, that's a secret.   Adam: Oh, you can't tell me. Oh, God.  Tilly: No, no. I can tell you. So it's a cereal mix and there is something similar to what you would feed sheep. Bit of barley, bit of sheep mix.  Adam: That's awesome. So not mince pies and carrots? That's only reserved for Christmas Eve. That's probably not very good for them, I would have thought.  Tilly: Yeah, no, I hate to say this, but reindeer don't actually eat carrots.  Adam: Oh right okay, well, that's good to know.  Tilly: But if ever children bring carrots for them, I never turn them away because we're very good at making carrot soup and carrot cake.  Adam: Santa's helpers get the carrots.  Tilly: And I'm absolutely certain that Santa eats all the mince pies, so all good. So anyway, come on through here. We're going now into a 1000-acre enclosure. It just hooks on there, that's perfect, it goes right across. We could actually once we get close to these visitors are coming off from a hill visit this morning. So you'll be pleased to hear that I am the boss. I'm Mrs. boss man and I've been with the reindeer for 43 years. Now, their lifespan is sort of 12 to 15 years, so I've gone through many generations. I've known many lovely reindeer and there's always a favourite and you would have seen some real characters there today. And you couldn't see them in better conditions. Anyway, do get yourself down and warm yourselves up. Oh, you've done very well to bring a little one like that today.  Walker: He did pretty well until now!  Tilly: You've done extremely well. Of course they have. He's got very red, a bit like Rudolph. The thing is there's just that wind, and it's the wind that drops the temperature, that chill factor.  Adam: Yeah. So where are we going, Tilly?  Tilly: So we're heading out towards what we call Silver Mount. They're not in here all year. Different times of year, sometimes they're all free range, some of them are free ranging, some are in here.  Adam: When you speak about free range, literally they can go anywhere?  Tilly: Yes they can.  Adam: And they come back because they know where the food is?  Tilly: Yes they do. They know where the food is, they sort of know where the home is, but they do wander out onto the high ground as well, more in the summertime.   Adam: Right. And is that, I mean Scotland has different rules. There's a right to roam sort of rule here. Does that apply to reindeer? Is that the issue?  Tilly: That is a moot point.  Adam: Oh, really? We've hardly started and I've got into trouble.   Tilly: No. Well, we lease 6000 acres, right? So we lease everything out to the skyline.  Adam: So that's an extraordinary range for them.  Tilly: It is an extraordinary range, but they know no bounds. I have to say reindeer sometimes do just pop over the boundary.  Adam: And that causes problems with the neighbours?  Tilly: Well, some like it, some aren't so keen. And we herd them as well, so we can herd them home. And we herd them by calling them.  Adam: I was going to say, do you have a skidoo, or?  Tilly: No, no. Absolutely no vehicular access on the hill. It's all by Shanks's pony, everywhere.  Adam: Really. So you walk, and then you just ring a bell to herd them, or what do you do?  Tilly: And you ‘loooooow, come on now!' and they come to us.  Adam: Right. And so what was the call again?  Tilly: ‘Looow, come on now!'  Adam: Come on now, is that it? OK, very good. OK, I now move.  Tilly: Yes. But hopefully they won't all come rushing from over there.  Adam: I was going to say, yes, we've now called out the reindeer.  Tilly: We've just joined a cow and calf here, who have just come down to the gate, and you can see just for yourself, they're completely benign. They're so docile and quiet. There's no sort of kicking or pushing or anything. They're very, very gentle creatures.  Adam: And is that because they've been acclimatised because tourists come, or would that be their natural behaviour?  Tilly: It is their natural behaviour, bearing in mind that reindeer have been domesticated for thousands of years. We're not looking at a wild animal here that's got tame. We're looking at a domesticated animal.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: It's probably more used to people than some of the reindeer up in the Arctic. So we have domestication embedded in their genetics.  Adam: So what we're saying is, genetically, they're actually more docile. It's not because this particular reindeer is used to us. But originally then, if one goes back far enough, they were wilder?  Tilly: Yes so, it's a really interesting process of domestication of reindeer, which happened in the Old World, so Russia, Scandinavia, inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia. And that is reindeer and many, many reindeer in these Arctic areas, are domesticated. They're not wild.  Adam: And that started happening, do we have an idea when?  Tilly: Probably about 10,000 years ago. But if you go to the New World, to Alaska and North Canada, exactly the same animal is called a caribou. Caribou are never domesticated. The indigenous people of these areas never embraced the herding and enclosing of reindeer, which was caribou, whereas in the Old World it became very, very important to the men, the people's survival.  Adam: And then the caribou, do they have a different character?   Tilly: Yes, they're wilder. And it's a little bit difficult to show today – you see quite strong colour variation in reindeer, which you don't see in caribou, and colour variation is man's influence on selecting for colour. So you'd get very light coloured ones, you'd get white ones in reindeer, you'd get very dark ones, but in caribou they're all the same, brownie-grey colour. Yeah, they felt that the white reindeer were important in the herd for whatever reasons, Germanic reasons or whatever. Interestingly, the Sámi - and I'm not sure if there could be a white one up in the herd here at the moment - describe them as lazy reindeer, the white ones.  Adam: Why?  Tilly: Well, I didn't know why until I worked out why white reindeer are often deaf. So they sleep, they don't get up when everybody else gets up and moves, and this white reindeer doesn't realise that the herd has left them. So they're not all deaf, but certain white ones are.  Adam: Very important question, obvious but I didn't ask it to begin with because I'm a fool. Why are reindeer connected to Christmas?  Tilly: Well, that's a really good question, because actually they think it stems from a poet called Clement C Moore, who wrote a poem in America, he had Scandinavian Germanic connections, called The Night Before Christmas, where Donder, Blitzen, Cupid, Comet, fly through the air with Saint Nick in the sleigh, the little Santa.  Adam: Yeah.  Tilly: But, so that really set the scene of eight reindeer and the sleigh, and that was based on the Norwegian God Odin, who had eight legs and strode through the sky with these eight legs and eight reindeer. Then we have Rudolph, who turns up, but he doesn't turn up until the time of prohibition in America.  Adam: So Rudolph isn't in the original poem?  Tilly: Absolutely not. Rudolph is an impostor.  Adam: I didn't know that!  Tilly: He, so he, it was a marketing exercise for a department store during alcohol prohibition. And it was Rudolph with his red nose, and his red nose is because of alcohol.  Adam: Because he drank too much? So was it in favour of alcohol or was it going ‘what terrible thing happens to you when you drink'?  Tilly: I'm not terribly sure. But anyway, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer was the song, so that adds to it. And then along comes Coca-Cola who used a red and white Santa to promote Coca-Cola at Christmas time. So the red and white Santa is Coca-Cola.  Adam: Right. And the red-nose reindeer is from alcohol and reindeer comes from an actual American poem, of which Rudolph wasn't part of anyway. That's all simple to understand then!  Tilly: Exactly. Perfect.  Adam: Well, we're moving up to some of the more exposed slopes. Tilly has gone ahead. I'm just going to catch up back with her, and ask how she started as one of UK's first reindeer herders. Well, certainly, one of our few reindeer experts.  Tilly: I came up to volunteer and I met the keeper who was looking after the reindeer for Dr Lindgren, who was the lady who brought them in with her husband, Mr Utsi, and he was quite good looking.   Adam: Is this a revelation you wish to make to them?  Tilly: And the reindeer were endearing, and the mountains were superb, and so I married the keeper.  Adam: Right, you did marry him! I thought you were telling me about another man other than your husband.  Tilly: So I married Alan. We married in 1983 and I've been here ever since.  Adam: And so the purpose of having reindeer here originally was what?  Tilly: Ah, good question. Mr Utsi came here and was very taken by the landscape and the environment, the habitat, because it was so similar to his own home country of north Sweden. And he begged the question where are the reindeer? Why are there not reindeer here? And it was on that notion that he and his wife, Dr Lindgren, devoted the latter half of their lives to bringing reindeer back to Scotland.  Adam: So that's interesting. So, it raises the difference of ecological or sort of natural question, of whether these are indigenous animals.  Tilly: Yes. So it's an interesting idea. Certainly, the habitat's available for them and they live in their natural environment. But when they became extinct, or not extinct, but when they weren't in Scotland, some people say as recently as 600 years ago and some people say as long as 2,000 years ago. If it's 2,000 years ago, they're described as a past native.  Adam: So OK, I didn't realise that, but is there any debate around whether they were originally - whatever originally is –  Tilly: They were definitely here.  Adam: So they are native? They're not sort of imported, they have died out and been brought back here.  Tilly: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, they were reintroduced, but how, what that time span is, some people say sooner than later, and Mr Utsi certainly identified this as a very suitable spot for them.  Adam: Any idea why they might have died out? Do we know?  Tilly: Probably a bit of climate change and also probably hunting. Very easy animal to hunt. Are you OK with this chitter chatter going on?  Adam: Yes, it's all good, and a bit of, do you call it mooing?   Tilly: Oh no, the reindeer aren't making any noise, they're clicking.  Adam: Someone was mooing!  Tilly : I think it was the people.  Adam: I thought it was the reindeer making that noise.   Tilly: Not at all. They're very silent.   Adam: They'd have left this podcast thinking reindeer moo.  Tilly: They would have. Exactly. No, they are really, really silent animals.  Adam: There's a very large reindeer there coming down the road.  Tilly: Oh, that's OK, that's Akubra, he'll do nothing to you at all. He's an absolute genuine reindeer. He's lovely. But he listened to the clicking as they walk. You can't hear it because of your headphones.  Adam: OK, so I guess later on I'll put a microphone on a reindeer. That will be a first. One other thing I always imagined when you saw a set of antlers on a sort of grand Scottish mansion, I thought, oh well, they've killed that the reindeer. And actually, that's not true, is it? They fall off.  Tilly: They do. You're absolutely right. Having it depends how you see the antlers. If the antlers are still on a skull, that animal has been killed and there's nothing wrong with that. There is a, you know, the animals need to be controlled. But you're also right. Antlers are lost every year and regrown again, so they cast their antlers and they regrow their antlers. So in a reindeer's life, if a reindeer is 10 years old, he will have just grown his 11th set of antlers.  Adam: And the purpose of antlers is fighting? I'm a big girl, I'm a big boy, whatever.   Tilly: Yeah, mainly for fighting, a weapon. So for the big breeding males, it's for claiming harem for females, so in the breeding season. And those big breeding bulls will actually lose their antlers around about now, their antlers will fall off and then they won't regrow their antlers until next spring, right? The females, little females like this, keep those boney antlers all winter and they use them for competing for food, so they can jab another reindeer and push it off and they can get into the food as a result.   Adam: The other thing I can notice about some of them, but not the reindeer in front of us, but I think the one walking away, although this looks very bony, the other one has sort of felt on it, and what looks like blood. So what's going on there?  Tilly: Yes. So they are the velvet antlers on the Christmas reindeer that have finished growing, but they don't lose the velvet properly and there is still potentially blood in the bone, as it were.  Adam: So there's this sort of capillary underneath the felt.  Tilly: Yes, exactly, because the antler's a really interesting appendage because it grows from the tip. It doesn't grow from the base, so the blood supply has to go all the way to the tip to grow. And the velvet skin carries that blood supply.  Adam: Right. I see. So now the reindeer in front of us has no velvet so that can't grow.  Tilly: And no blood supply. Exactly. And the only way she can grow, get more antlers or bigger antlers, is to lose the whole thing and grow it again next year. Yes.  Adam: So any other serious facts we should note, to inform ourselves about reindeer?  Tilly: Oh, lots of serious facts. So they're the only deer species where the males and the females grow antlers. Every other deer species, it's only the males that grow the antlers. They are the only deer species that's been domesticated by man. All the other species of deer, we're talking about 40 different species, are all truly wild animals. They can survive in the coldest parts of the world, so in the middle of Siberia, the temperature can go down to -72 and reindeer are still living there quite happily.  Adam: It's cold today, but it's probably -2 or something.  Tilly: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Man cannot live in the Arctic without an animal to live by, and it's reindeer that he lives by. Man would never have gone into these areas. Obviously now they're all digging up, you know, getting the oil and the gas and everything. But indigenous man can only survive in these areas if he has reindeer as his farm animal of the north, so they're really important to the indigenous people of the north.  Adam: And in that sort of role, then, you can clearly eat reindeer. Then what else does it provide us?  Tilly: Absolutely. So it provides with meat. There are indigenous people that milk them in season. They have these tremendous coats that are used for covering tents and for people's, you know, clothing. And the antlers? Not now, but the antlers would have been used as tools in the past.  Adam: And have you ever had reindeer milk?  Tilly: I have tried, yes, we have milked the odd reindeer for one reason or another. It's very rich, very rich.  Adam: You have! Rich, is that good or quite fatty? Is it drinkable?  Tilly: That's good. Yeah, it's totally drinkable. Totally nice.  Adam: Yeah, I think yaks or a drink made from yaks, which was disgusting, I found in Mongolia, but I really found it difficult. It wasn't my thing.  Tilly: But it wasn't the fermented one, was it? Because in Mongolia they're into fermented mare's milk.   Adam: That might be what I had.  Tilly: And that is revolting.   Adam: Yes, OK, that's maybe what I had. How unusual is reindeer milk then?  Tilly: Yeah. It's got a very high fat content. They produce very little milk, because if you had a great big swinging under in in freezing conditions, you'd have ice cream, you wouldn't have milk.  Adam: The other thing I noticed that we haven't talked about is their hooves which look quite large and they look, I mean just from a distance, quite mobile.  Tilly: Yes. They are very, very, very flexible animals and their feet, their hooves are very big. Of course, for snow. Walking on the snow, spreading the weight, but also great shovels for digging. So they dig. You know, if you're in two feet, three feet of snow in north Sweden, you've got to get to the food underneath and to get to it, they need to dig. So they're great diggers.  Adam: And your life now here. It's quite a change from where you grew up, I appreciate.  Tilly: Certain years, a very rural life I had then. I have an equally country-wise life now. I will go to my grave with reindeer. They are my complete nutter passion. They are the most wonderful animals to be amongst, they put a smile on your face. They live in a beautiful area. They're just, they're just lovely animals and they give me a lot of pleasure. Yeah, yeah.  Adam: Fantastic. And if people are in the Cairngorms and want to have their own trip to see the reindeer, they call the what?  Tilly: They call the Cairngorm Reindeer Centre. You could do it on the website, you can ring us up and they need to dress up. I'm sure you appreciate you, are your feet cold yet?  Adam: No, look, I stopped off and bought extra thermals on my way.  Tilly: Very good.  Adam: Well, thank you very much. It's been a real treat, thank you very much.  Tilly: Brilliant. Oh, well, thank you for coming.  Adam: Well, I'm afraid I'm having to leave the reindeer behind because we're now heading to a little lower ground to see what I'm told is an amazing forest of Caledonian pine. And to learn a bit more about the trees and their relative, the other pine, which we all know as the Christmas tree. And we're off to meet a guy who looks after the Glencharnoch Wood in Carrbridge, near the River Spey and Dulnain. And now, despite it, it's a quite a small forest, I think. But despite that, it's quite well known for being really important, really big on biodiversity. And it's home to a number of species including, but not just them, but including the red squirrel and the crested tit.  Ross: My name's Ross Watson. I'm the site manager for North Scotland for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. Ross, we have come on an extraordinary day. It has snowed. It looks picturesque, chocolate box, shortbread box maybe, type stuff, so fantastic. So just tell me where we are.  Ross: Well, we're in Glencharnoch wood. It's a wood that the Woodland Trust owns and it's part of a series of little woodlands on the back of Carrbridge between Carrbridge and the railway. And the Woodland Trust has had it for a number of years. It's a little site, only 36 acres, but it's a pine wood site and a really important pine wood site at that, in that it's a small part of much bigger Caledonian forests.  Adam: OK. Well, I want to talk to you about pine wood, because I think it just sort of gets dismissed – ‘oh this pine wood, not important, not interesting'. Apart from Christmas, perhaps, when suddenly it becomes really important, but I want to unpack all of that with you, but just explain to you we're going to go on a little walk. Hopefully you know where you're going. Good. All right, so just explain a bit about where we're going, give me a sense of the pattern of where we're going.  Ross: Absolutely. We're going to take a circular walk around the woodlands. The woodlands here, it's all about community. Everything we do here is around that tree. We're going to walk through a piece of land that's owned by the local authority and then go through our own land and onto privately owned land and then come back to our own land. And it really shows the connectivity of all these different habitats, all the different landowners. But really the path network is there for the community that's here and they are involved in practice as well.  Adam: So. Pine wood. Yeah, it sort of gets bunched all together, and especially the Scots pine I hear a lot about. But there are there are big, big differences and varieties are there? Tell me a bit about them.  Ross: The Scots pine we are walking through are really special species. That's the only native conifer in the UK, right? And that's why they're so special here. Really these Scots pine provide their own habitat all of their own. They're incredibly threatened. As a habitat in Scotland, we've got just a number of Caledonian pine inventory sites. We've got ancient woodlands, designated sites.  Adam: Sorry, just to stop you - Caledonian pine, Scots pine, interchangeable words?  Ross: Yeah, good point. The Great Wood of Caledon was the reference of the name of the forest that was here, the old, the original boreal forest that gradually reduced in size. Partly through climate change as the country became cooler and wetter, but also through human intervention through felling, fires, grazing, all that kind of thing. So now we tend to talk about Scots pine and Cally pine which can be fairly interchangeable, but the Cally pine tends to be the bigger, grander kind of granny pines, these really lovely old things you see in some of the landscapes.  Adam: But that's sort of just the way people use the word. Technically, they're the same thing, but we refer to the Caledonian pine as the big grand ones, and it comes from… so I just want to make sure I understood what you said. The word Caledonian pine then comes from a Caledonian, a forest called Caledonia?   Ross: Yeah, the Great Wood of Caledon.   Adam: Isn't that a brilliant name? So mystical and it sort of talks of Tolkien and other worlds. Wow, wow. OK. So we have the great Scots pine, the Caledonian pine. If people have a general thing in their mind about pine trees, what is special about Caledonian pine? How that distinguishes from pines in other parts of the world.  Ross: Well, Scots pine, as we're walking through this woodland, just now as you look up the trunks of the trees, as you look up the bark tends to go from a kind of grey-brown to a real kind of russety red, like a red squirrel colour. And that's a lot of the red squirrel camouflage comes from that, that rusty colour. So they're skittering around these treetops and they can be jumping around and they're nice and camouflaged because of that colour. So is that redness that you really see? But what we can see in here, a lot of these trees are very even age, it has been quite heavily thinned in the past, but then you come across a tree like this that's got a very deep crown. So you see there's live branches more than halfway down that tree, whereas there's a lot of these other trees -  Adam: Yes, I was going to say it's weird that they've got no foliage until very high.  Ross: Yeah, so this tree here, and foresters may call this a wolf tree, a tree that has occupied a space and it's just sat there and doesn't allow anything around it.   Adam: It's called a wolf tree?  Ross: Some people would refer to it as a wolf tree. What we would refer to that is it's a deep crown tree, not very imaginatively named, but a deep crown tree is really important here because of capercaillie. Now, capercaillie, you imagine a capercaillie's a big bird, a turkey-sized bird, almost waist height, a male capercaillie. And in the winter it will walk out across these branches and it will nibble away at some of the needles, and it will sit there and it will rely on that during deep snow for shelter, security, food. So without these deep crown trees, there isn't anywhere for them to go. So if you imagine a plantation, a very dense pine that are much denser than this and they don't have the chance for any deep crown trees. Then the opportunity for capercaillie here is much reduced.  Adam: Right. So there's sort of, I mean, look the elephant in the room. Well, it's Christmas around the corner. People have Christmas trees. Sort of most people know anything about pine, it's because they have it in their house at Christmas. That's not a Scots pine.  Ross: No, your traditional Christmas tree is a Nordmann fir. A fir tree tends to hold onto needles a little longer than a pine tree. And if you look after the pine, it will retain its needles, but quite often the pine trees will grow slightly too quickly, so it'll be a bit bare as a Christmas tree, whereas a fir tree is kind of hairy enough to be a good Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. And do we have, do we have them planted in the UK as well? I mean just for commercial cropping?  Ross: Yes, as a Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. So the other thing, look, we're in a really lovely forest at the moment. We're the only ones here. But Scotland, the iconic pictures of Scotland, are bare, bare mountains, aren't they? They're not wooded, and yet I've always read that that's not how it used to be. It used to be a wooded part of the country. Why did it lose so much of its woodland?  Ross: Well, it's looking back to, what, centuries ago as the climate became cooler and wetter, the tree line reduced in height. But more recently in the 1800s the Cultural Revolution created huge periods of felling where they needed this timber for industrialization. Trees from the woodlands near here were cut down, they were floated down to the river Spey and then out to Spey Bay and the Moray coast. They were used for underground water piping for ship's masts. Because these trees are, as you can feel today it's a cold place to be, they've grown very slowly. So because they're nice and straight as we can see, they are, the rings are very close together, so they're very sturdy. They're an ideal timber source. But then we start to look at deer numbers increasing and sheep numbers increasing. The more mouths on the hill meant that once you cut these trees down, it was much harder for the trees to come away again. And really, that's the landscape we're in now really. And when we're talking about those very large, deep crowned trees on open hillsides, these kind of granny pines are so picturesque, and really a lot of these trees, there was no timber value in them because they were already so crooked and they were left, and this is almost a remnant that's showcasing the old forest that once was standing there.  Adam: A lot of times, site managers, they're trying to keep things steady in a way, I suppose. Just trying to maintain what's going, keep that going, that's hard enough. Is that the job here or do you have bigger plans? Are there, you know, times are changing?  Ross: Well, this is one of eight woodlands I look after across the north of Scotland. Whenever we're doing anything, no matter what the scale of it, it's not just how do we keep the site going and kind of steady. It's about when we are doing work, how do we add value to that to make it better for the people that are living here? And how do we use that to continue to showcase these sites as the shop window for the Woodland Trust?  Adam: And is the idea here to try and remove the non-Scots pine, so you'd have a pure Scots pine forest?  Ross: Well, the Woodland Trust works on a on a threat basis really. So any tree is better than no tree, right? But if you have got a lot of spruce regeneration that's threatening this ancient wood then we need to begin to remove that. And that's been the case here.  Adam: Sorry I'm pausing because there's a lovely spaniel who I can see wants me to throw a stick, but I won't throw the stick. Very cool dog. There we are. Sorry, we were saying yes, so any tree is better than no tree. But are the other trees a threat then or not?  Ross: Well, the Norway spruce here has been seeding regeneration into the woodland areas and over the last few years we've cleared a lot of that and in some of these nice young spruce, we've been able to provide to the community for Christmas trees, which has been really handy. But all of that is gone now and we're left with this core of, of mature Norway spruce, that a number of them have started to snap so are becoming a safety issue for members of the public using footpaths next to it. But also there's an opportunity there where before that timber dies, we can extract it and it can be useful for the community.  Adam: And you'd replace it with Scots pines.  Ross: No, we're going to replace it predominantly with hazel and aspen. Because one of the slight concerns in having a single species stand, like we have here, where it's all Scots pine, is that there's only one species for the likes of red squirrels or the crossbills. And on a day like today we might hear crossbows coming over. There's only one species here for them, whereas if we're planting hazel, which is under-represented species here, that provides a different food for red squirrels in a different part of the woodland. And aspen is one of the most biodiverse species that we would have in this part of the world. And there are very, very few aspen.  Adam: When you say it's the most biodiverse species, you mean it attracts biodiversity?  Ross: Absolutely yes. In terms of the lower plant assemblage that's on there specifically and insects. And aspen, their Latin name is Populus tremula and the tremula comes from the oval shape on the leaf. Just in the slightest breeze, it's adapted that to try and shake off the insect burden because the leaves are so palatable for insects.  Adam: So the shape of the leaf in wind -  Ross: The shape of this stock of the leaf is oval.  Adam: And that helps shift any insects.   Ross: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: It's interesting because aspen, in my ignorance, I associate with aspen in America, but it's a native UK tree.  Ross: It is, yeah. And it will be one of the first colonisers after the Ice Age. That's, an aspen will have, the seed will have blown down as the ice is receding. But some of the aspen that are here now will be some of the oldest trees that exist in the UK and aspen generally now grows rhizomatously, so you'll see the roots through the forest and all of the suckers will pop out. And the aspen that we can see in the woodland today, they could have been here for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and they've just, as the clone has marched through the landscape, it's just it's moved and colonised these different areas. They're fascinating trees. So when you look at some of the images in North America, you might see entire hillsides of aspen and that could all be the same tree essentially, they're amazing organisms.  Adam: That's amazing. So it's sort of cloning really.   Ross: Yeah, absolutely.  Adam: That's amazing. And also I can see right on the Scots pine behind you, beautiful lichen, which is just a real sign of the air quality here, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't grow and it's just often further south. We do see lichen, obviously, but often I see a bit. This is everywhere. It's a real sign this is good land.  Ross: Absolutely, yeah.  Adam: Good land, good air. Wonderful. Well, I'm going to take another shot of our colleague down below. Hello. Wearing a lovely red hat, almost looks like Santa. And then we'll move on. So we're going uphill a bit, you might just hear the snow crunching under my boots. So this is amazing. A wolf peeking out from the woods, which adds to the fairy tale quality of all of this forest walk. This is not a real wolf. This is carved in wood. It looks really beautiful and it's covered in snow at the moment, which maybe is why I didn't spot it at first. So what's the story here?  Ross: Well, the story here is that Carrbridge hosts the Scottish chainsaw carving competition every year at the end of August, and there are chainsaw artists coming from all over the world to compete here to do some incredibly elaborate carvings. They do benches and three-to-four-metre statues and it's absolutely incredible.   Adam: This is very delicate that I'm surprised this would be done with a chainsaw.  Ross: Yeah, it's a very specialist skill as you can see, and people have to be very artistic. You have to be very good with the saw, but also the bar of the saw is a specialist carving tool. But then they also can use all sorts of other implements to try and refine the artwork itself. And this is just one part of that much larger chainsaw carving trail that's in Carrbridge that really commemorates this annual event.  Adam: Amazing. Well, we'll leave the wolf. It's got even a little dark nose. Amazing. A little dog, a real dog this time. Well, yes, just to prove it. We've just seen some reindeer. Obviously they're a type of deer. Are they as much of a problem as the normal red deer that we know about? So what's your view on them?  Ross: Well, red deer, the numbers are extremely high in some places and in the Cairngorms, they're generally much better managed. But in other places where there just isn't that, that integration or the objectives are yet to be aligned with protected areas, the numbers in those places need to come down, but recognising that there are different objectives, there are different landowners who want to do different things with land. So in recognising and respecting those objectives, but generally, ideal numbers need to come down and they need to come down a lot in order for trees and woodland to recover.  Adam: But that's deer in general, just because it's Christmas, I just have reindeer on the mind. You don't see many reindeer here. Or any reindeer here?  Ross: No, you see them up in the Cairngorms, right?   Adam: Right. Another pitstop. I see some lichen with some snow on it. I should turn them into Christmas cards. I won't, but that's what I should do. So if there was a sort of a final thought you wanted people to take away about this forest or about Caledonian pines you're trying to protect and grow here, what might that be?  Ross: Well, for this woodland, and as I say, it's only 36 acres in size, it's a fairly small wood. But it's not to discount that, and we talk about the hundreds of ants nests, the crossbills, the crested tits, it's woodlands like this can punch way above their weight. But also woodlands like this connected together provide a much larger, integrated robust habitat. And it's just thinking along these lines that this, this woodland, although it has the A9 on one side, it's got roads on two other sides, it's got a forest adventure park there and to the other side, it feels like a woodland that could be squeezed, but it can also feel like a woodland that is a part of this much larger landscape and contributing to that. And I suppose in part it depends on how you view that, yeah. But the woodland is connected to its woodlands round about, so it's definitely playing its part and part of that recovery of the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, as small as it is.  Adam: It's been a real treat for you to guide us through it on such a special snowy Christmas-y day. So thank you very much indeed.   Ross: No problem.   Adam: Well, it's been a fantastic day. Which leaves me just say from the land of reindeer and Caledonian pine, can I wish you a very happy, peaceful and joyous Christmas and New Year? And I do hope that wherever you are, you are able to share the joy of this season and that you'll join us in the New Year for lots more podcasts and tree adventures. Until then, from all of us in the Woodland Trust podcast team, to all of you, can we wish you a happy Christmas and a great New Year and of course, happy wanderings.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Step into the heart of an ancient woodland as we explore Ashenbank Wood, a Site of Special Scientific Interest rich in history and teeming with wildlife. Woodland has stood here for centuries, but this haven is under threat. A proposed tunnel project, the Lower Thames Crossing, could harm the irreplaceable ecosystem and ancient trees here. Jack, leader of our woods under threat team, explains what's at stake and the challenges and strategies involved in trying to maintain a delicate balance between development and nature. A decision on whether the project goes ahead is due from Government in May 2025. We also meet estate manager Clive, who delves into Ashenbank Wood's history, tells us more about why ancient woodland is so important and shows us the unusual approach of strapping deadwood to trees. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Today I am at a site of Special Scientific Interest in the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is teeming with extraordinary wildlife, and I'm told you can stand in the shadows of gnarled veteran trees and even spot some shy dormice, rare bats, and woodland wildflowers if you're there at the right time of year. But it is also a site under threat. National Highways propose to build a new tunnel linking Essex and Kent under the River Thames, and many feel that that will create a threat to the trees and wildlife here. So I've come not just for a walk, but to chat to experts and the first is the man responsible for coordinating the Woodland Trust response to big infrastructure projects and to chat to him about how infrastructure and nature can live hand in hand.  Jack: So I'm Jack Taylor, I'm the programme lead for the woods under threat team at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. And we're at Ashenbank Woods?  Jack: We are indeed.  Adam: Good, OK, sorry, yeah *laughs* I know I should sound more sure, we are at Ashenbank Woods.  Jack: I think its full title might be Ashenbank Woods SSSI, site of special scientific interest.  Adam: Oh right yes, yes. And we're going to see a bit later a colleague of yours, Clive, who will tell us more about the details of this woodland. But the reason why I wanted to talk to you first as we walk through, what is a lovely, actually dappled, dappled bit of woodland here is about your role in protecting places like this from development because, so what, what is your job?  Jack: Yeah, it's beautiful. That's a good question *laughs* what is my job? I I suppose the the base of it, the basis of it, the foundation really is about trying to protect ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees from forms of development, but also from other threats outside of that as well. So non-development threats like air pollution, pests and diseases, deer overbrowsing. Most of my work does focus on working within the development sector and trying to protect against those development threats.  Adam: Right, and you're the project lead.   Jack: Yeah.  Adam: When I first saw that, I thought you meant you're the project lead for this woodland, but you are not. You are the project lead for all development threatening woodlands throughout the UK. This is an extraordinary, I mean that's quite a job.  Jack: Yeah, it's it's a lot. There are a lot of threats to have to deal with across the UK because we're always building always sort of growing as a nation. We always need sort of new forms of infrastructure and new sort of housing. We recognise that. But all of that does come with the added impact of having threats on our ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees, so we have a team of myself and my my wonderful team of four as well.  Adam: Alright. Yeah, it's not big.  Jack: No, it's not big, but they they are enthusiastic and they're great at what they do.  Adam: So this is quite a political area because we've got a new government which has promised to improve lots of things, get the country working, build lots of homes. I think, I think the Prime Minister only recently talked about, you know, we're going to get spades in the ground, we're going to be doing stuff. Well, is it your job to stop all of that, I mean, or how do you balance what needs to be done for the country and what needs to be done to protect woodlands?  Jack: Yeah. So it's so none of this is really about stopping development from from happening and we we have to be sort of quite clear that that's not what we're set out to do as an organisation. It's about trying to ensure that where development is happening. It's not going to impact on our most important and our most valuable woods and trees and that's why we do have a focus specifically on ancient woodland, but and then also on ancient and veteran trees as well, because we know that for the most part, there are lots of really valuable woods and wooded and wooded habitats and trees that are plenty sort of valuable and important. But we know that ancient words and ancient and veteran trees are likely to be our most important sites. We have to focus on protecting those. So we do have to object to some developments where we think the harm is gonna be too great, but we're never really looking to stop them from happening, unless the harm is too great.  Adam: OK. Which way?  Jack: Umm, I think right.   Adam: OK. So one of the things I've noticed before, I mean, when I was following the HS2 debate, was politicians were going ‘it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. We'll cut this down, we're going to replace them. I tell you what, we'll do you a deal, we'll plant two for every one we cut down.' On the face of it that sounds reasonable?  Jack: OK. Yeah, not to us.   Adam: Why not?   Jack: Well, I think if you're, if you're looking at ancient woodlands and ancient and veteran trees, you're looking at something that is an irreplaceable habitat. There is no sort of recreating that habitat in in one space again, once it's been lost and the reason for that is these things take centuries to evolve and develop to create those sort of vital links between animals, plants, fungi, the soils as well. So ancient woodlands are especially important for their soils. So you can't really just take those soils and put them elsewhere because once that happens you completely disturb the relationships that have built up over centuries within them. And ancient and veteran trees, so you're talking about trees that for the most part are going to be centuries years old. How do you how do you replace centuries of development creating these wonderful sort of niche habitats for different parts of our ecosystems?   Adam: And is it, you said quite clearly that it's not your job or the Trust's job just to stop development, just to sort of blanket go, ‘hey, stop building' so is it about going, ‘don't build here' or is it about saying, ‘if you're gonna build here, this is how to do it with the least amount of impact'? What's the sort of your approach?  Jack: Yeah. In some cases it is about saying not, not building here. It depends what we're dealing with, I suppose so it's different if you're dealing with, say, housing developments or leisure facilities as opposed to something like rail infrastructure or road infrastructure, which is quite linear in nature, so they can only really go in one place to deliver its purpose, whereas housing is not as locationally dependent.  Adam: I see. So you feel you've got a better argument if it's a housing project, cause you can go, ‘put it somewhere else', but the train journey from A to B has to sort of go through this area. You're you're on a loser there are you?  Jack: Well, sometimes, but there are there are ways of of getting around sort of kind of impact. I mean it doesn't have to go absolutely sort of A to B in one way. You can think very carefully about the design to try and minimise impact on ancient woods. You can also look at alternative solutions, engineering solutions like tunnelling for example, so HS2 is a good example of that. The Phase One section which is going ahead between London and Birmingham, they actually put in a tunnel under the Chilterns, which saved about 14 hectares of woodland saved these three really good prime areas of ancient wood. And of course the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty came into that in a way, and they were trying to protect that also. But that was one solution to stop wildlife and nature being harmed.  Adam: Right. So that's, was this, were you involved with that?   Jack: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: Amazing. So how difficult was that to get that that project through and try to avoid the destruction of all that woodland?  Jack: Well, a lot a lot of destruction still is happening from High Speed 2. So about 20 hectares of ancient woodland has been destroyed at this stage now. A lot of the sort of preparation works for the Phase One section, that London to Birmingham bit, are now complete. So it it was difficult, but it it the way in which we were involved is we really brought ancient woodland to the table and put it at the forefront of considerations and and gave it a voice I suppose. It's not that it wasn't being looked at at all, but not nearly to the degree that we thought it needed to be looked at. And so we sort of kind of introduced that idea of well look, there's ancient woodland here, you need to be thinking carefully about the design and, you know, you think you're talking about halving the impacts on ancient woodlands from from our sort of kind of involvement and involvement of other conservation organisations in there as well.  Adam: So a lot of it is trying to say, to make the argument, but also to raise the profile of that argument,   Jack: Sure.  Adam: To bring, population and say this is actually a loss. You know, cutting it down is is a loss. So how much harder or easier has it got for you to make that argument?   Jack: Well, do you know, interestingly, I I would probably say that projects like High Speed 2, where there is such a big argument around the ancient woodland has raised the profile of ancient woodland itself. That's one of the sort of silver linings of that project for us, it's put sort of ancient woodland on the map in terms of habitat that needs to and is worthy of protection. So I think a lot of people now understand ancient woodland a bit better and what it is. There's still lots of awareness to do, you know, people just think of ancient woodlands as bluebells, big large oaks and it's not quite there. I mean, they're all so kind of varied in their nature and geographically across the country, but it's got people thinking about them.  Adam: So that was something of a success, although I know more complicated than just ‘yes, we won that'.   Jack: Sure, yeah.   Adam: Any areas you feel you really lost that, you know, keep you up at night, you go, that was that was a failure and you know, we've lost that woodland?  Jack: Yeah. I mean, there've been, there've been some over the years. Back in 2012 a a large quarry was built on an area of woodland called Oaken Wood in Kent, probably taking about out about 30 to 35 hectares of ancient woodland which is massive, massive amounts, I mean, you're talking about in the region it's like 40 to 50 football fields and and and we're actually dealing with another threat to that woodland from an expansion of that same quarry. So yeah, you know that that one is one that gnaws gnaws at us, is that, you know, we don't want to see that happening anymore.  Adam: Are you getting more optimistic that you know the public are more on your side that this is at least something that plays in policymakers' decisions now?  Jack: I I actually think the public have always really been on our side. I think if you ask the the general public, they would probably say to you, we do not want to see ancient woodlands subject to any loss or deterioration, whatever the cause.  Adam: Yeah, I think you're right. But they also say, yeah, but we like cheaper housing and want better transport links so.  Jack: Yeah. Well, I mean the Lower Thames Crossing, which is going to be affecting this site that we're in now, Ashenbank Wood is sort of a prime example of that the the intention of that project is to relieve traffic congestion on the existing Dartford Crossing.  Adam: Which I think actually I can hear in my headphones this, although we are, I mean it looks beautiful, there's quite a lot of background traffic noise. So we can't be that far away actually from from transport, from big roads. So explain to me you say this this particular site, Ashenbank Woods which is a site of Special Scientific Interest, so it's not just any old woods, this is a really special place, is under threat. What is the threat here?   Jack: So the threat here is partially there will be some loss to the wider SSSI ancient woodland in the area when you're losing sort of kind of, Ashenbank Wood itself is not going to be subject to much loss, although there is a cycle route diversion going through the woods that might impact on some of its special features.  Adam: Oh one second just, we've we've just turned off the path, we're just, oops crawling under some trees. I don't quite know why we've come, we we seem to have chosen the most difficult route. Well, it is beautiful because we've come off the path right into a magic dell.   Jack: There we go.  Adam: Oh, look, there's obviously some, I think, probably some kids have built a sort of camp, tent out of fallen branches. OK, so sorry so I understand that this is under threat from development, the the development plan though is what? What are they trying to do here?  Jack: So so what they're doing is they're building a new crossing further to the east of Dartford Crossing, but that's going to involve connecting...  Adam: A river crossing, a tunnel?  Jack: Yes a river crossing.   Adam: But it's a tunnel.   Jack: Yeah, it's a tunnel.  Adam: Why would that? That's that's great, surely?  Jack: Well, the tunnel goes under the Thames. But in order to connect the A2/M2 to the to the sort of tunnel portal, they're going to be going through a lot of ancient woodlands as a result. So just down the way Clay Lane Wood is one that's going to be heavily impacted by by the proposals, you know several hectares of ancient woodland loss there, but in terms of our wood itself, you're you're gonna have impacts on some of the veteran trees from some of the works that are required in here. But you're also sort of increasing the traffic around the area on A2/M2. And as you can hear, there's already quite loud background noise from the traffic. If that becomes louder, it further reduces the suitability of this habitat for a lot of species.  Adam: Right. So what are your, what are you doing?  Jack: Well we're campaigning against it for one thing. So we've been campaigning against it since 2016, trying to bring those bring those sort of impacts down as far as possible. At this point in time, I would probably say that it's unfeasible, that it could go ahead without causing loss or damage to ancient woodland and veteran trees, and that's something that we have to oppose as an organisation. So we're working with other environmental NGOs, conservation orgs like RSPB, Buglife, Wildlife Trust, CPRE to to oppose this scheme.  Adam: So, and if people want to keep an eye on the sort of campaigns you're running, and the sort of live issues around the country, where can they get that information?  Jack: They can go along to woodlandtrust.org.uk/campaigns and they'll be able to find out about what we're doing in terms of campaigning for protection of ancient woods and veteran trees. We've got a really great campaign at the moment, all about protecting ancient and veteran trees and we're stood in in front of one of these at the moment, we call them Living Legends.   Adam: Right OK, what a lovely link, because I I was gonna say you've brought me to a stand. It looks like a sculpture this, so what, so let me just briefly describe this. I mean, it's a hollowed out tree. There's, it almost looks like there's 3 or 4 bits of different trees supporting each other, and you can go hide in the middle. I mean, there's, I'd, I couldn't spread my arms in the middle, but I mean almost, you know, there's probably, I don't know, 4 or 5 foot wide in the middle. It's most extraordinary. What is this? What's going on here?  Jack: So I would probably say this is an ancient ash tree. As trees sort of grow older, they they have to sort of kind of allow their heartwood to to rot away because that's what keeps them sort of stable and secure and in doing so that creates really important habitat for wildlife. And so this is what has happened to this ash tree effectively, its heartwood has sort of rotted away, it's still got this kind of all important surrounding ripewood to be able to support the rest of the tree.  Adam: That's extraordinary. So the the, the, the wood at the centre of the tree, the heartwood has gone?  Jack: Yes, yeah, yeah, cause it it's not it's not really useful for for trees at that sort of point. It's it's no longer the part of the wood that's carrying the sort of the water and nutrients up the tree. That's what the sort of outer ripewood does. So the heartwood decays away as they as they grow older.  Adam: And that's just ash trees is it?  Jack: No, that's that's pretty much all. Yeah.  Adam: How ignorant am I? OK, fine. OK. I didn't realise that that happens to all trees. And it looks like that would cause an instability problem, but this looks actually fairly fairly stable, it's fine.  Jack: It it's it's actually it's actually the other way they do it because it allows them to remain as stable as possible. And I I mean this one it doesn't, it doesn't look in the best sort of structural condition does it, but they need to do that for their sort of physiological condition because if they have if they're trying to support too much sort of heartwood then it affects the trees energy balances. And I mean that there's actual sort of scientific things here between the kinetic and the potential energy in a tree and why why they do this but all old trees do it and in turn it creates this amazing habitat, so you can see all these little holes in the in the sort of kind of inside wood and the decaying wood as well, where insects have sort of burrowed into it, where birds would be, woodpeckers, you know would be would be accessing that as well.   Adam: Yeah. Amazing   Jack: Amazing structures, aren't they?  Adam: And so I'm going to meet now, one of the people responsible for actually managing woods such as Ashenbank, and he's waiting for me a bit further into the woods.  Clive: OK, I'm Clive, Clive Steward, I'm one of the estate managers for the Woodland Trust working in the South East.  Adam: So what is important about this site? What makes this wood special?  Clive: What makes this site special is that it's ancient woodland or partly ancient woodland, but it's also managed as a wood pasture or has been managed as a wood pasture in the past, and because of that habitat it has lots and lots of old trees and old trees is very important in terms of what they support in terms of dead and decaying habitats.  Adam: Right, so well we're standing by this extraordinary ash tree, I mean, it's extraordinary that there's an ash tree at all, given ash dieback, but it's extraordinary for all sorts of other reasons. But is ash a big part of this woodland?  Clive: In terms of its name, Ashenbank, you you think it should be but but it's it is a component of the site but it's not, the majority species is not ash.   Adam: What is this site then?  Clive: So mostly sycamore and we're in the northern part of Ashenbank where we've got a lot of sycamore and we've got some really big old sweet chestnuts, but there are lovely old oak trees and hornbeam trees.  Adam: Right. And so when we talk about ancient woodland, it's always worth, I suppose, explaining a bit about what we mean because clearly will go, well, that's old. But old for trees can be a whole different sort of thing. So how, what, what, what do you mean when you're talking about ancient woodlands?  Clive: Well, when we say ancient woodland ancient woodland is defined as areas which have been permanently wooded since 1600AD. That's the sort of the the the date.  Adam: Oh right, I didn't realise it was that precise.  Clive: Well, it well, yes, it's roughly when big old estates used to produce maps, so they discovered paper and started drawing maps of what they owned but prior so before this this, the assumption is that if it's wooded then it would have been wooded ever since the Ice Age retreated but managed by mankind for for thousands of years.  Adam: So we're, we're assuming actually that ancient woodland is all it's probably been here since the Ice Age?  Clive: Yes. Yeah.  Adam: So that's why I mean that's it's worth I think pausing on that because it's why when we're talking about ‘oh, we'll have to destroy a bit of woodland for a tree, for a road' sorry, we're talking about taking away a bit of the landscape, which has been there since the Ice Age probably. So that's quite a big deal to have done that.  Clive: Yeah, yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. The the other part of Ashenbank, which is the bit we're in is a more recently wooded area, probably about 200 years old. I have a a map here which is not good for a podcast, but I can show you a map.  Adam: Go on go on, we can describe this. Hold on. I'll hold the microphone and you can describe what we're seeing. So go on, yes.  Clive: So we have a a map here of Ashenbank Wood dating from 1797, which shows the woodland it used to be. I have another map showing the wood as it is today. So here's a map from a couple of years ago, but we're we're actually up here, which in the 1797 map shows fields. And now, now, now it's woods. So so basically, what's happened this Ashenbank used to be owned by Cobham Hall, which is a big estate to the east of Halfpence Lane, so this used to be partly of Cobham Hall Estate and in 1790, as many of these big old estates houses used to do, they used used they they employed a landscape architect to make their their grounds nicer as it were. So it wasn't Capability Brown, but it was a chap called Humphrey Repton who worked on this site from 1790 to about 1880, when he died 1818 when he died. And he landscaped the estate and the view from the house over to here looking west to what is now Ashenbank Wood was obviously important to him. So they actually planted a lot of these big old chestnuts which we walked past, which date from 200 years ago.  Adam: Which is very nice and we often hear about cutting trees down and looking at old maps going ‘oh, we've lost all that wood', here's an example of the reverse to actually that's a good nature story.  Clive: Yeah, yeah, definitely it is. Yes. As you get older, as they get older, these trees there are microhabitats which develop rot pockets, branches fall off, they they rot, big holes develop and that that's these microhabitats which are home to what's called saproxylic species.   Adam: OK, that's a new word, saproxylic?  Clive: Saproxylic. So saproxylics are are basically insects and beetles and flies which only exist in dead and decaying wood. So if these big old trees weren't around, they've got nowhere to live.  Adam: Right, which is why it's useful to have deadwood on the ground. It's not so, it looks untidy, but actually that's often the richest place.  Clive: Indeed. Yeah, yes, but often, but often these insects and beetles are actually in the living tree, not in the in the horizontal, dead and dying stuff. And it's the living trees, which are are why this habitat is so important.  Adam: But I thought you said you said they're living in the living trees, but but saproxylic means they're living in the dead trees?  Clive: But within these big old trees, there are these rot holes and pockets and little microhabitats within the tree...  Adam: Yes, which are dead and that's where they live?   Clive: Where they live yeah that's right.  Adam: Right OK. Yeah, very interesting. OK, very interesting. Now, there's also, I knew I was told, but I'm completely confused by, an idea that I'm told that goes on here of strapping deadwood to live trees. Did I did I misunderstand that?  Clive: No, no, you you didn't misunderstand it. No.   Adam: OK and you're going to show me where this is ?  Clive: Yep. Shall we shall we go, we'll we'll walk there, have a look.  Adam: Alright. Brilliant. So you've taken me to this tree, a very substantial tree, but next to it, this is the a bit of, what, you better explain, because this is really odd and I don't really understand what I'm looking at.  Clive: Right. Well, going back to 1999 when High Speed One was being built, they took out three hectares of Ashenbank Wood along with lots of other woodland in the area. And fortunately, somebody had the idea of of suggesting that we could save some of those big trees they felled and reerecting them against living trees to help them degrade and and become part of the habitat.  Adam: So I mean to describe this, we've got a very big tree. What sort of tree is this?  Clive: So you've got a big, big oak tree.  Adam: That's a big oak, and next to it is 6, 12, I don't know, 30 foot, 40 foot high dead tree, bit of bark. But it's it's not like a small, it's a 40 foot bit of bark which you have propped onto the living tree. Why is it better to have done that than just to leave it on the ground?  Clive: Well, it's about these microhabitats. So I mean, it's not just propped up it's actually strapped to it, so it's actually quite secure.  Adam: It is secure, that's y your health and safety hat on.  Clive: We had to make sure it was strapped up, but vertical dead or decaying wood is equally as important as horizontal, dead and decaying wood.  Adam: OK. Is it different? What, does it do different things?  Clive: The wood doesn't but it attracts different insects and species so that that that's why so. But in most in most woodlands you'll see deadwood as being felled trees which are lying or windblown. You don't often see dead vertical trees.  Adam: I've never seen that.  Clive: Well, they're often well, they're often felled and taken out for firewood or something but they are important as as a sort of microhabitat for these saproxylics. That that's purely why.  Adam: So the saproxylics which are insects which live on deadwood prefer, some prefer the high rise living of the vertical tree rather than the low level bungalow type living. But what what sort of, do you do, don't worry if you don't know, but do you know which insects prefer living vertically?   Clive: I I don't know that.  Adam: You don't. Somebody will, somebody will.  Clive: Yeah somebody will. But if you look at that tree, you'll see that it's a there's a there's a U-shaped crook 2/3 way up and in that there's there's a there's a hole which has probably got water in it. So water gathers from rain and that's that that little microhabitat will be, something will live in it. And if that was horizontal, it wouldn't be there.  Adam: Right, yes, yes. Well that I think this must be, I mean, we've been doing this for a few years. I've never seen that. So that is amazing. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. So I know that the history of this site goes back quite a long way, not just the natural history, but the human history as well, and am I right in saying there's quite quite a lot of sort of Bronze Age heritage here?  Clive: Well, we've got a Scheduled Ancient Monument which has been dated to between 2000 and 1500 BC, which is a big burial mount and it is scheduled and it's, you know, English Heritage monitor it and we have to make sure it's free of trees and it's there to see.  Adam: Right. Wow. And it's interesting you talk about it's there to see because we came and parked in the Woodland Trust car park. Free parking, as is normal in Woodland Trust places, first time though a full car park. We are here midweek during the day. I was surprised to see it's full so talking about visitors, this is clearly a, I mean have I just come at a weird time, have they all come to see the Woodland Trust podcast being made, it's right, it's a popular site. That always feels like contention to me because I know you want to encourage people to come, on the other hand, coming in a sort of, destroys a bit of what we see. How much of a problem are the level of visitors?  Clive: Well, we basically have a path network through Ashenbank Wood which we maintain, we mow, we make sure it's open and safe. So most people walk on those those paths which steers people around the the wood, as it were, so and we we don't stop people from walking off the path but most people don't cause it's, you know, nettles or brambles or whatever. It's difficult to do.  Adam: Right, yes. And keeping dogs on the lead and everything. You've been with the Trust for a long time, haven't you, really. What sort of change have you seen in the the the debate around the natural world in your time here?  Clive: That's a big question.  Adam: Have you, I mean, sort of, it assumes you have seen a change, you might not have seen a change. I mean I the reason I ask it is because it feels to me it's gone up the political agenda, that it's not just, you know, people dismissively talking about crazy tree huggers and let them onto their own thing. It's become more mainstream. Do you think that that's it's become more optimistic, do you think it's become more pessimistic, do you think, you you know, it's become more informed, I suppose?  Clive: Well, I think there's a growing recognition that ancient woodland is a special habitat, but it hasn't quite gone far enough to get total protection. But I think there's a growing realisation that ancient woodland is special and we need to look after it. And I think the politicians probably do understand it, but maybe can't quite make that move to legislate against total protection.  Adam: Yeah. And I think that's part of the Living Legend campaign that the Woodland Trust is organising, isn't it?  Clive: Definitely is. Yeah. Yeah, very much so.  Adam: Well, there were two websites we talked about today. So if you want to get involved in a local campaign, search for ‘Woodland Trust campaigns' and you can find out more about the attempts to get better legal protection for ancient and veteran trees by searching for the Living Legends campaign and of course I hope you get a chance to visit Ashenbank Woods yourself. So until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Did you know oak supports over 2,300 species of wildlife? Discover this and more fascinating facts in our episode dedicated to the nation's favourite tree. We join Trust experts, Jules and Kate, at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham, to find some fascinating growths on oak trees, known as galls, and learn why hunks of deadwood are so important.  We then visit the star of the show and 'Lincolnshire's best kept secret' - the astonishing 1,000-year-old Bowthorpe Oak. It's one of 12 amazing oaks in the running for 2024 Tree of the Year. Which one will you vote for? Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, in this podcast, we're looking at the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year competition, which is all about oaks and is on a quest to find the nation's favourite one. And there are lots to choose from. There is the Elephant Oak in the New Forest, the Queen Elizabeth Oak in West Sussex, the Darwin Oak in Shropshire, the Capon Oak on the Scottish Borders and plenty of others to choose from across Wales, Somerset, County Fermanagh, Cheshire and well, lots of other places as well. And you can vote for your favourite oak by going to the shortlist of them at the voting site woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote, so that is woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote and we'll repeat that again at the end of this podcast.   Well, today I'm going to see one of the oaks in contention for the Tree of the Year, the Bowthorpe Oak in Bourne, in Lincolnshire, a tree which has a hollow interior and had previously, that interior had been fitted with seats and had been used as a dining room for 20 people in the past, 20 people! It must have been an enormous oak and that's not a practice I think that's recommended these days. Well, certainly not. But nonetheless it's a great oak which has played a great big part in the local landscape and is much loved, not just in the UK but attracts plenty of visitors from abroad as well. Now, oaks have an amazingly important part in our culture and in days gone by were, I think, central in Druid folklore, for instance, in fact one amazing fact I have learnt making this podcast is that the name Druid comes from druer, the Celtic for oak for the word oak and wid means to know, so Druid means oak-knower, so there's a good fact for you. Anyway, enough of me. I'm off to meet some people who know all about oaks and unusually I am not starting by a tree. So, unusually, we're starting in a car and I'm joined by two women from the Woodland Trust. So first of all, introduce yourselves.  Kate: I'm Kate Lewthwaite. I am citizen science manager at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Wonderful. And our driver for the day is...  Jules: Hi, I'm Jules Acton. I'm a fundraiser with the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So we're going to look at a few oaks today, one of which is actually in the running to be the Tree of the Year, and you can vote on that still and I'll give you details a little later on on how to do that. But first of all, you were telling me that you have a little present for me. I always like to start the day with a little present.  Jules: It's always good to start the day with a little present, I think and here's a little one for you.   Adam: Oh, and it's wrapped up in tissue paper. It's an early Christmas present. How very good. So what is that? OK so do you want to describe it?   Jules: OK so it's a little, it looks like a little woody marble really, doesn't it? And it's got a little tiny hole you can see just there and some extra other little tiny holes. That is an oak marble gall.  Adam: An oak marble...ghoul?  Jules: Gall.  Adam: And how do you spell that?  Jules: G A double L.  Adam: G A double L and what what is it?  Jules: So this is this is incredibly special, so this has in many ways changed human culture, this little tiny thing. Certainly amplified human culture. So this is a gall, which is made by, and it's made by a little tiny wasp. And the wasp lays a an egg in the in the bud of the tree of the oak tree. And it makes the oak change and it sort of changes chemically. It's really strange. And it makes the the oak form this little marble shaped thing on the end of a twig. And that becomes home for the gall wasps' larvae, and so that the little larva grows up inside it and it has this its own special home, but it's also full of lovely food. So that's interesting itself and that it's it's it's it's got this sort of little little home but it what's particularly interesting human, from the human perspective is that these kind of galls were used to make ink for about 1,000 years and the the kind of ink that they made, it was used, I think, until the middle of the 20th century. So kind of until quite recently. So Shakespeare's plays were written on oak gall ink, Newton's theories, the American Declaration of Independence, huge amounts of historic documents.  Adam: So just trying to understand that, Shakespeare's plays were written on ink created by this thing?  Jules: By a gall like, yeah, this kind of thing by by a gall. Yeah. But you can you can still now you can make gall gall ink from these little little things here. So it in many ways it it amplified, this little tiny thing we've got here, amplified the whole course of human history, culture, etcetera in our part of the world.  Adam: Quite an extraordinary place to start our journey today. Wonderful. So, OK, so we're, yes, we'll put that away nice and safe and we'll start our journey. Kate, do you just want to start by telling me what we're going to do when we get out of the car?  Kate: We're going to have a walk round Londonthorpe Wood, which is one of the Woodland Trust sites, one of our thousand woods that we own and we're going to see an oak tree that Jules has found for us to go and talk about.  Adam: Fantastic. All right, well, let's go.  Jules: Well, well so we've just seen some amazing galls on what looks like quite a young tree, it's probably about 30-years-old, would you say, Kate, this one?   Kate: Maybe, yes.  Jules: And, yeah, they're they're bright red and they're on the underside of the oak leaves and they look a bit like cherries and   Adam: I was going to say, the one you showed me was all grey, you gave me an old rubbish one, didn't you? This is what they look like when they're on the tree. It's red, it does look like a cherry.  Jules: Yeah, this is a particularly stunning one, isn't it? And they they are literally called cherry galls. And they again  Adam: They're called cherry balls?  Jules: Cherry galls.   Adam: Galls, cherry galls.  Jules: And they're about the same size as the marble gall that we saw earlier. And I believe they are also caused by a gall wasp. And but what is good about these kind of galls is that they're relatively easy to spot. So once you get your eye in, you start seeing them everywhere, so it's a really lovely thing to start doing, you know, with children or just looking yourself when you're out on a on a walk, you know.  Adam: Wow. So that shows that a wasp has formed that?  Jules: Yeah  Adam: And these are non-stinging wasps, aren't they?  Jules: These are non-stinging wasps. They're teeny, teeny, tiny wasps. They don't look like your your black, you know the big black and and and yellow stripey things that come at your ice cream, not that there's anything wrong with those wasps, they're lovely too.  Adam: Inside that gall is baby wasps? Is that?  Jules: There will be a little larvae inside there.  Adam: And that's what they're using as as food, or is it?  Jules: Yes, that's their home but it's also their food source. And I'm not at some point in the year the the the little tiny wasp, once it's developed, will will kind of drill its way out and then be set free to the to the wider world. But I think we'll find some other kinds of galls, actually. So it might be worth us moving on a little bit and just see if we can.  Adam: OK. Moving on, yeah, that's politely telling me to be quiet and start walking.  Jules: Oh sorry *laughs*  Adam: Sorry, there's a, oh it's a tractor going up and down the field next to us. So that's what the noise is in the background. But the fact that we we sort of just held a branch here and and Kate was already, you know, lots of wildlife, jumped onto her jumper, does raise the issue about how many, how much wildlife an oak supports. And I was hear some fantastic number. Just tell me a little bit about that.  Jules: We know that the oak supports more than 2,300 species and that they could be species that that feed off the oak, that live inside it, that live on, on, on or or around it, that you know they perch in it. So species using the the oak tree in all different ways and they are, they they they're birds and mammals, they're lichen, fungi, invertebrates. All sorts of different kinds of species, but what's important, I think, is that they're only the species we've countered, and I think there are a huge number more that we just haven't got around to counting would, would you agree, Kate? You probably know more about this than me.  Kate: Yes, definitely. And some of those species can live on other types of tree, and some are only found on oak trees, so they're particularly important. And of course, we haven't started talking about the value of deadwood and all those wonderful rare beetles whose larvae live in the wood. So there's lots to be said about that as well.  Adam: I'll tell you what, let's just walk all further away from this tractor, which sounds closer than it is, and you can tell me about the importance of the deadwood.  Jules: Well we might see some spectacular deadwood.  Adam: Oh well, we might see some, OK. OK, so we have stopped by some deadwood and you're going to explain why, is that right? Right. OK. Kate is going to explain. Well, why have we stopped here, Kate?  Kate: Because deadwood is absolutely fantastic and we have a history of a nation of being a little bit too tidy and taking it away and using it for firewood and other things, when actually it's an amazing habitat in its own right. I'm just looking at the variety of rot holes, of larval galleries where the insect larvae have fed, and then the adults emerged. And it is like a whole habitat in its own right. And actually deadwood is really rare. Much of the woodland in the UK is not felt to be in good ecological condition and one of the reasons for that is a lack of deadwood. So it's incredibly important habitat and we don't have enough of it.  Jules: One of the things I didn't understand until recently and Kate, you might know more about this than me, but there's there's different kinds of deadwood. So if you have, it's important to have deadwood in different formats, so standing deadwood so when the old tree is still standing upright, and and deadwood that's lying down on the ground.  Adam: Right. What what why, so it matters if it's vertical or horizontal?  Jules: It it it matters that you have both kinds.  Adam: And why?  Jules: Because, I feel like I'm at the edge of my knowledge, so it's because about it's about different habitats, isn't it Kate, is that right?  Kate: Yeah, I think so. And the the wood will rot at a different rate. It's quite ironic because the one we're standing at now is actually at a 45° angle. So it's neither vertical nor nor horizontal. And of course, oak trees are absolutely full of of tannins, which I think are the same compound you find in the oak galls that enable the writing. But they also mean, you know this huge, great piece of deadwood here could be around for hundreds of years because it won't, it will rot very, very slowly.  Jules: And and one of the great things is when you have deadwood right next to living wood as well, because that creates all these different conditions which will suit different kinds of invertebrates and fungi as well, so that that's really important to have this collection of of different kinds of wood in in you know in a similar area.   Adam: Excellent. OK, we've, we've stopped. We've stopped Kate, and you've got very excited.  Kate: It happens quite easily when I'm out in nature. And there's a whole pile of knopper galls on the floor here, and they're black. You know, they've dropped off the tree. They've done their job. The the wasp has flown off. But I wondered if we could, I've no idea if this is gonna work, I wondered if we could actually try writing with them because they are oozing black.  Adam: Oh my, right, this is so exciting. OK, so this is like this is a modern day Shakespeare. Have you got? OK. The line is to be or not to be. I see. Hold on a second. So you've picked it up, right, I I think you might do something to it.   Kate: Well, I might have to. Shall we see, shall we see if it just?  Adam: Right, but you're not, you're just gonna?  Jules: Ohh there we go.  Kate: There is a brown ooze and it's I think it's not just from the path.  Adam: I was going to say, it's not just mud.  Kate: It's not. It's this kind of coffee colour.  Adam: Wow, OK. And you are writing to be or not to not be.  Kate: I am writing to be or not to be, I I don't know if I break it open a bit more if you might get. Ohh. This is gonna stain my nails, isn't it?  Adam: OK. Ohh dear, don't worry I'll I'll pay for the the visit to to the nail parlour.  Kate: *laughs* I shouldn't worry. Yes, we are actually getting some.  Adam: To be or not to be. Well, I'm sure that would have actually been mixed with water or something.  Kate: Most likely  Adam: Or some alcohol and put into a quill, but that does what hold on, let me just rub it, see. Well, I can confirm that is not just what we have now created ink. Proper exciting.  Kate: Absolutely.  Adam: Thank you very much. Well, we're heading away from our ink gall-bearing oaks to see the main attraction of the day, which is a short drive from here. It is the Bowthorpe Oak, one of the contenders for Tree of the Year. It is rooted in a grass paddock behind the 17th century farmhouse nearby. In 2002, the Tree Council, in celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, designated the Bowthorpe Oak one of 50 great British trees. One of the 50 greatest British trees in recognition of its place in our national heritage. And I'm meeting the current custodian of the oak who runs the farm in which it lives.  George: My name is George Blanchard and I am one of the family members here that farm at Bowthorpe Park Farm.  Adam: Right. And you have, we're standing by this famous tree. People come here to see this tree?  George: They do, yeah, we get them from all over the world. A lot of lot of UK, obviously, Europe and America, we get a lot of interest from America.  Adam: Well, tell me a bit about this tree.  George: So this tree, the Bowthorpe Oak, is the UK's largest girthed oak tree. It's absolutely stunning as you can, as you can see, fully in leaf at the moment it looks amazing and yeah, that's it's claim to fame.  Adam: Right it's wide the widest I think it was the second widest tree in the UK. Is that right?  George: We know it's the largest largest oak tree in in terms of it's it's the most complete, you know. So I think there could be wider ones, but not quite as complete.  Adam: Not quite as good as your tree!  George: Yeah, exactly. This is yeah *laughs*  Adam: No, I agree. And and is is this a family farm? Is this?  George: It is yeah.  Adam: Right so you've grown up, you've you played under the boughs of this tree.  George: I have. Yeah, yeah and and inside it as well. Remember it is hollow so.  Adam: Right. Yeah. So tell me a bit about the sort of the folklore and the stories around the tree.  George: Yeah so oak trees naturally start to hollow at around 500 years old, but this one was hollowed even further, back in the 1700s by a chap called George Pauncefort and  Adam: It was, it was, it wasn't naturally hollow, he hollowed it out?  George: They they do, they do naturally hollow, but he hollowed it even further. And you can tell this when you're looking inside it, because the the sides are quite flat. It's very unnatural. You can see so the hollowing has been done by by tools. And so he also put benches around the inside of it and a and a doorway on on the west side and even even sort of paved the flooring but and and put a pigeon loft in the crown, which I think, I think back in the day in the 1700s, if you had a pigeon loft in your tree, you were somebody *laughs*.  Adam: Ohh really that's like Lamborghini time, right? OK, forget your Lamborghinis, I've got a pigeon loft in my tree.   George: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he would have parties in there as as you would, wouldn't you?  Adam: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you've gone to all that trouble. Was he a member of the family? Was this being passed down?   George: No, no, there's no there's no relation, no relation. We've we've only been farming here since the sort of late 40s.  Adam: Right. OK, amazing. Amazing stuff. And I mean, and it looks in fairly, I mean as you say, it's in good leaf, it's in also just it looks to the untutored eye in good nick as well, generally healthy.  George: It is yeah. Really good really good condition currently. We lost a a limb off the back and that was that was quite concerning because it's it's quite dramatic when they shed a shed a limb, but it is what they they naturally do. We have an inspection done on the tree annually, but at the time of losing the limb, we were, we were quite concerned. So we upped the type of inspection we had done. And they were quite, quite invasive, I say invasive it was, you know, using really small drills, to see if there's any adverse rotting in any places. But no, they were really happy with the condition of the tree and and how healthy it is so other than any sort of man-made issue, I don't see why it shouldn't carry on growing as it is.  Adam: And it's amazing because, I mean, you know, it's taken us quite a while to get here and people come here all this way just to see this tree.  George: They do, yes, yes, seek it out, we call it Lincolnshire's best kept secret.  Adam: Right. Amazing. From all over the world?  George: They do yeah yeah. From all over the world. Like I say, a lot of a lot of Europe people come from Europe and a lot of people come from America. We find that the two two types of people from America, those that really appreciate it and those that just can't get their head around it because it's nowhere near as big as their redwoods *laughs*  Adam: Right? Call this big. Call this big, you should see...  George: Exactly. Yeah, call this big, we've got bigger.  Adam: Yeah OK. Brilliant well thank you very much, I will take a tour round it.  George: Thank you.  Adam: So one of the other, now I have to say, first of all, let me have a look at the front front, we've taken a book with us because Jules has published a book called Oaklore and you've brought it out here because there is a poem about this oak in your book.  Jules: There is and it was written well over 100 years ago by a poet called John Clare and but the interesting thing is when he wrote this poem this would have already been an ancient tree, so it's it's quite an interesting record that he was standing in awe, looking at this tree, just like we are now really.  Adam: Right, right. So when did he write this?  Jules: I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I know it's over well over 100 years ago.  Adam: OK, well over 100 years and you're going to put on your best poetry reading voice.  Jules: *laughs* I'll have a go.  Adam: Go on, give us, I always love, I mean, we did this in the Sherwood Forest podcast where we took a book about Sherwood Forest and a book about a tree to the tree it's about. So we're now going to read a poem about the tree we're standing by. So this poem by John Clare.  Jules: And it's called Burthorp Oak. So here we go. Burthorp Oak.   Old noted oak! I saw thee in a mood  Of vague indifference; and yet with me  Thy memory, like thy fate, hath lingering stood  For years, thou hermit, in the lonely sea  Of grass that waves around thee! Solitude  Paints not a lonelier picture to the view,  Burthorp! than thy one melancholy tree  Age-rent, and shattered to a stump. Yet new  Leaves come upon each rift and broken limb  With every spring; and Poesy's visions swim  Around it, of old days and chivalry;  And desolate fancies bid the eyes grow dim  With feelings, that earth's grandeur should decay,  And all its olden memories pass away.  Adam: Brilliant. That's that's a lovely poem to read by by the tree.  Jules: I think it's quite interesting that he says age rent and shattered to a stump so it it sort of suggests that the tree is in a worse condition than now, wouldn't you say so Kate? And it looks like it might be happier now than when Clare saw it.  Kate: I was just looking at it and I mean it looks like some of those shoots have put on a good foot of growth this year. So that's the amazing thing about ancient oaks is they they so-called retrench. So all the limbs, the limbs drop off, they become shorter and and and wider and then they might all just start to sort of grow again and it sort of goes through these amazing cycles. Certainly there's a lot more vegetation on it than when I last saw it 15 years ago. It looks fabulous.  Adam: And also a lot of oaks grow very tall. This isn't so tall it it is wider, isn't it? It's a squatter tree. Is that because it's actually not had to compete, because it's actually in a field by itself isn't it? It's not competing for light with lots of other trees.  Kate: Yes, maybe. And also trees like this do, the really ancient trees they do tend to become short and squat and it's part, and hollow, and that's part of their survival strategy is that they'll shed some of these top branches and they'll, they'll shorten and and widen.  Adam: Right. I mean, oaks are really important, aren't they in the UK especially, they're part of the national identity, really, aren't they? And and a lot of that's got to do with folklore, which I know, Jules, you've written about as well.  Jules: Yeah, I mean the the oak has been part of our culture well, as far as as, as as far as we know as far as written records go back and even we we believe that the the Druids themselves were very also very interested in oak trees and they worshipped in oak groves and they particularly worshipped mistletoe, the rare mistletoe that came off off oaks. Of course, we don't have written records on the the Druids, so we don't, we know very little about them, but that's certainly what we believe. And then it's been threaded throughout our our history and our culture that the oaks right up to the present day, you know people are still writing about it and painting painting oak trees and you've got wonderful ambassadors like Luke Adam Hawker who is very inspired by oak trees and goes out drawing them.  Adam: Why do you, I mean I don't suppose there's an answer, but do you have a take on why we've landed on the oak as such a a central part of our mythology and identity?  Jules: Well, I I think I think all of our native trees will play a role in that in our folklore and our mythology and and our culture, I think the oak is is is a particularly impressive tree isn't it, especially when you're standing next to a tree like this that that is so majestic and and you know the words like majestic, kingly, queenly, grand, they they just sort of pop into your head. There is just something incredibly awe-inspiring about the oak tree. And then, as we've we've seen before it, it just has such a huge impact on our ecology as well. So I think I think it's just something it it does a lot of heavy lifting culturally and also naturally the oak tree.  Adam: And almost every pub is called the Royal Oak.  Jules: Yes, yes, I think there's at the last count there's well over 400 pubs called the Royal Oak.  Adam: And you know that personally by visiting them?   Jules: Well, I've yes, I've I've tried to count them all. I've still got some way to go *both laugh*  Adam: Yeah. OK, OK, alright. Well, it's it's a good project to be having.  Jules: So there's an interesting story behind the that name the Royal Oak. And the reason the pubs are called that relates back to a very special oak tree, the Boscobel Oak. Now we have to go back in history a few hundred years. And it takes us back to the Battle of Worcester and the son of Charles I was in in battle with the with, with, with the parliamentarians, and he took a drubbing at the Battle of Worcester, and he needed to escape. And he reached this place called Boscobel House, and he was going to hide out in, in that house and try and escape the the soldiers, the the enemy. But it was very insecure and one of his advisers suggested he, instead of hiding in the house, he hid in the oak tree. So they spent the whole night in the oak tree, which subsequently called called the Boscobel Oak, and this and and and they escaped capture and the king spent the whole night with this chap called William Careless as he as he was called   Adam: William Careless?  Jules: William Careless who turned out not to be careless at all because he actually saved the king. And apparently the king sort of curled up with his head on Careless' knee and and he, they they got away. They got away with it and because of that you know that then obviously led into a whole series of events which ultimately led to the restoration of the monarchy and said King became Charles II and and because of that there was an enormous celebration of oak trees. So they they they were raised in status even further. So we've got all the Royal Oak pubs which are effectively commemorating that occasion. But there's also a great day of celebration was declared. It was the 29 May. I think that was the King's birthday, and it was 29 May. And it became oak apple day. And that was when we would all when people across the land would would gather and and celebrate the restoration of the monarchy. And one of the things they used to do was they people would bring branches with oak apples, which is another of those amazing galls. And the more oak apples you had on your branches, the better the better you were, you know, the, the, the cooler you were at the party. And if you didn't bring oak branches with you, apparently people would be mean to you and they'd whip you with nettles.   Adam: Blimey, this story took a turn!  Jules: Yeah, these parties got these these parties got quite out of hand. I actually think we should bring these days back. Not, no nettles. But I think actually wouldn't it be great if we spent every 29 May celebrating our amazing oak trees and and and also the wider nature around us.  Adam: Yeah, we've missed it this year, but I'm putting a date in for us to meet at a Royal Oak somewhere between us on 29 May.  Jules: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. Yeah. And maybe drink a glass of oak flavoured wine or whisky.  Adam: OK, never had that, but I'm I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Kate, this is also important because this is in the running for Tree of the Year.  Kate: Absolutely. So the Woodland Trust hosts the UK Tree of the Year competition, and this year we've focused on oak trees.   Adam: So so they're all oaks.  Kate: All of them are oak trees this year, so we've got 12 candidates from across the UK and the wonderful Bowthorpe Oak here is one of them. It's my local tree so I'm a little bit biased, but these trees all tell amazing stories. We've got one that's shaped like an elephant in the New Forest. We've got one that has survived being in the middle of pine plantation in the Highlands of Scotland and we've got one that's sadly under threat from a bypass in Shrewsbury. So we've got some amazing stories from these trees and the public can vote. So voting closes on the 21 October 2024 and you can go to the Woodland Trust website so it's woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote.  Adam: There were some cow noises just as you said that in the background! Just to prove that we're in a farm *all laugh*.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Join us for a jam-packed visit to Frodsham Woods, Cheshire, where 80 volunteers were planting thousands of trees to help transform a former golf course into a fantastic new space for wildlife and people. We visit the neighbouring ancient woodland and admire hilltop views with site manager Neil and chat to Tim, supervisor of this army of tree planters, about how the new wood will develop. We also meet Esther, lead designer of the project, hear from comms guru Paul about the Trust's #plantmoretrees climate campaign, and speak to the volunteers about what the day means to them. Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire, overlooking Liverpool. Not far away, in fact. And the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadleaved woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wildflowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's running all the tree planting there is also in a band, and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later. It's called Frodsham Woods, and it's near the Frodsham train station. Guess where? In Frodsham. Well, today we are starting, I'm starting sitting down with Neil Oxley, who's the site manager here. Hi Neil. Neil: Good morning, Adam. Adam: Good morning. So, just explain where we are because we are, well, I'm not gonna take away your thunder. Explain. It's an unusual location. Neil: So, we're sat on a bench overlooking the River Mersey and Liverpool. We're on the old golf course that was closed about three years ago. Adam: Yeah, well that's what I think is unusual – sitting on a golf course. I gotta take, it doesn't look like a golf course. They, the greenkeeper would have had a heart attack seeing the state of this place. But what's amazing is, well, I'm looking over a forest of planted trees. I mean, just within 10 yards, probably a couple of hundred of them, just been planted. So, this has got to be unusual. Take buying a golf course, turning it into a forest? Neil: It is, yeah. I think it's probably the first golf course that the Woodland Trust has taken on and it's just a great opportunity, though, that when it became available, it's adjoining some of our existing woodlands, including ancient woodland. And it's given us an opportunity to plant lots of trees and work with local people and engage the community in doing something good for the climate. Adam: And we're sitting down, looking over what might be, I don't know. Is that a bunker? Do you think that's a bunker? Neil: It is, yep. So, there there's probably about 40 bunkers on the golf course and we've kept them all, so some of those old features are still here. Adam: And I saw one, some gorse growing, just naturally growing in the bunker there. Neil: There is. Just in the two or three years since it stopped being maintained. There's gorse, there's silver birch, there's all sorts of trees and plants that are now appearing. Adam: I love the gorse. It's bright. It comes out early. Bright yellow. Real splash of colour in early spring. It's really. Neil: It is, yeah, it's lovely and colourful. Adam: And we're looking over a range of wind turbines. And is that the Mersey ahead? Neil: That is, that's the River Mersey. Adam: Although there's not much river, it looks, it looks like it's out. It's mainly mud. Neil: It's probably low tide at the moment. Yeah, and Liverpool just beyond the other side. Adam: Very nice. So, you're going to be my main guide today. We've got lots of people to meet, I know. Alright. Brilliant. So, explain to me the plan for the day. Neil: So, we're gonna have a walk round and look at some of the tree planting that we've already done here. We've got some groups of corporate volunteers and Woodland Trust staff here today also who are planting trees. So, we'll go and see them later on. But I thought maybe to start off with we could go and visit some of the ancient woodland that borders the site and show you sort of why it's important that we're doing what we're doing today. Adam: Brilliant. I'm of an age where sitting down is quite nice, but that's not going to get, that's not gonna get nothing made, is it? It's alright. We better get up and you lead on. Neil: OK, let's go. This lady, by the way, coming with the pug. She's up here all the time. She's really lovely, friendly, always talks to me and Paul. And we've already said hello to her, but he... Adam: Oh, this dog wants a lot of attention. Neil: He loves that. He loves that, yeah. Adam: We'll let the rest of the team pet the dog. You know, you've paused here for a special reason. Why? Neil: Yeah. So, this area, we're on the edge of the ancient woodland now and the part of the site in front of us is going to be left for what's called natural regeneration to develop. So, that will be where trees can self-seed and set and grow naturally. So, we're not actually planting any trees in this area in front of us. And you can see there's some silver birch trees there that probably self-seeded five or 10 years ago on the edge of the golf course. And they're growing quite well already. Adam: So, and what's the advantage of that? There's a big debate about rewilding and all of that. So, why has that become an important issue? Neil: It is, I mean to different people it can mean slightly different things as well. But basically it's leaving the land to develop and rewild itself, you know, for nature to colonise it. It's a slower process. Adam: So, because if you're planting them yourself, you're planting all the trees at the same time. They're all the same age, so they get wiped out. Everything gets wiped out. Neil: Potentially yes. You could lose a lot more. Adam: Actually, I'm surprised those are natural regeneration because they've, it's very regimented. Those silver birch, they've all come up in exactly the same space, very close together. It looks like there's been some thought behind that. Neil: It does. It does and again nature can do things very similar to how people plant trees. You know, you often can end up with them very densely packed, more densely packed than we're planting them, actually. Adam: Yeah, OK. Well, we're still surrounded by these young, young trees. So, you lead on. Where are we heading off to? Neil: So, we're just walking into, towards the ancient woodland area. So, this this is called Woodhouse Hill and it's mostly oak and some silver birch, some holly growing in here, plus a few other species as well. Adam: And wonderfully of you, you've taken me to the muddiest bit of land there is. Are we going through this? Neil: This, well, we can do. It's unfortunately because of the winter we've had, some of the paths are very wet and muddy around here now. Adam: So, I have my walking boots on. You squelch ahead and I'll squelch behind you. Neil: OK. We'll carry on then. Adam: So, we're heading up, give us a better view of the Mersey, a better view of Liverpool. Neil: That's right. Just around the corner, there's a really good viewpoint where the view will open up and a sunny day like today get quite good views. Adam: And is it used by the locals a lot? I mean, it's relatively new then. I mean, presumably a lot of locals don't know about it. Neil: Well, I mean since, the golf course was closed down during the pandemic, and at the time the owner allowed the public to come and walk on the site. So, suddenly from people being not allowed to use it unless they were playing golf, local people were allowed to come and walk the dogs or just walk themselves around with the family. So, people did get to know the site and start using it, but it also borders some existing woodlands with footpaths, which is where we are now. So, these existing woodlands were already well-used. Adam: Right. And what's the reaction of the locals been to the development here? Neil: Very positive. Yeah. I mean obviously there's always a fear when a piece of land is up for sale that it might go for some sort of development, housing or be sold to a private landowner who fences it off and stops people using it. So, people have been, yeah, really positive, really supportive. The consultation that we did before we started anything was all very much in favour of creating woodland and allowing public access. Adam: I think we're coming up to a viewpoint here where there's a bench. Neil: There is, we should have another sit down. Adam: And it's very steep here. You wouldn't want to be falling off that, but this is a beautiful view. Neil: Yeah. The weather today is just great for the view. Adam: We've been blessed. Look at this. And then you look across a sort of flat valley floor with some wind turbines, which some don't like but I always think they're really majestic. And beyond the wind turbines, the Mersey, where the tide is out. And beyond that, that's Liverpool. And is that Liverpool Cathedral? The grey building in the sort of middle there. Neil: That's the main Anglican cathedral, and then the Catholic cathedral is just off to the right and beyond in the far distance is North Wales, so that low line of hills you can see is just within North Wales. Adam: Oh, that's, those hills over there, beyond the chimneys, that's Wales. Neil: Beyond the chimneys, yeah. Adam: And some other lovely gorse and, whoops don't fall over, I thought it was going to be me that would be falling over, not the site manager. Neil: Mind the rock. Adam: Ice and sea. So, we've come to the sign. ‘The view from Woodhouse Hill holds clues to the distant past, the Mersey Basin and Cheshire's sandstone hills were both shaped by advancing ice sheets during the last Ice Age.' Do you know what? I wanted to say that because I remember from O-level geography, I think a flat-bottomed valley is a glacier-made valley. But I was, I didn't want to appear idiotic, so I didn't say that and I should have had the courage of my convictions. So, this is an ice-formed landscape. Neil: It is. It is. I understand that the ice sheets came down to this part of the north of England back in the Ice Age. And there's some interesting features that are found here called glacial erratics. Adam: Right. Neil: Which is rocks from other parts of the north of England and Scotland that were brought down on the ice sheets. And then when the ice sheets melted, those rocks were left behind. But they're from a different geological area. Adam: Right. Amazing. Neil: So, around here it's sandstone. The erratics are all kind of volcanic rocks. Adam: Brought down from the north, from Scotland. Neil: Lake District and Scotland. That's right. Adam: Beautiful. We were with a few other people. Neil: I think they couldn't be bothered to come through the mud, could they? Yeah. Adam: We seem to have lost them. OK, alright. Well, maybe we'll have to, we've lost our team, our support team. Neil: We'll head back, but yeah, no, this was the view I thought we'd come to. Yeah, because it is a nice view. Adam: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me take a photo of you, for the Woodland Trust social media. Neil: Thought you were gonna say falling over the rock again. No, no, I'll try not to. Adam: Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, so to explain, you're running me across the field for some... Neil: Walking fast. Adam: Well, for you walking fast. I've got short legs. Why? Neil: Well, we've walked over now to where we've got the people who are helping plant trees today with us. So, we've got a mix of corporate volunteers, Woodland Trust staff and some of our volunteers here to help us and we're gonna go over and meet Tim Kerwin, who's in charge of the tree planting and supervising the tree planting with us today. Adam: Oh right, so these are, this is his army of tree planters. Neil: It is, yes. Tim keeps things in check and makes sure they're doing the right thing. Adam: OK. I mean, let's just look, there's scores of people I've no idea of who Tim is. Neil: Tim? Tim, can we get your attention for a few minutes? Tim: Yes. Adam: Hi, nice to see you, Tim. Tim: I've seen you on telly. Adam: Have you? Adam: Well, Tim, as well as being in charge of everyone planting the trees today is also the sax player in a band. And of course we have to talk about that first and he very kindly gave me one of his original tracks, which is what you can hear right now. A first for the podcast. *song plays* Tim: You know, you know what? We probably do about eight gigs a year, right? But we're trying to find venues where people like jazz. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to do Oasis. That's not what we're about. There's plenty of bands like that. We play music for ourselves, and if people turn up and appreciate it, those are the people we want. I'll play for one person. Adam: You know, I was in a wood a few years ago and, can't remember where it was, and we just came across a violinist, just playing to herself. And it was just like can I record it? And it's like, just playing amongst the trees, and I thought it was really lovely. Tim: You know what? I would, I would do the same. I mean, the places I like to play, like churches are fantastic because of the acoustics. Adam: So, you might play that under this chat and what's the name of the band? Tim: The Kraken. Adam: The Kraken? Tim: Yeah. Adam: OK. Alright, The Kraken *laughs* So, all of which is a bit of a divergence. Tim: I know, sorry *laughs* Adam: So, I'm told you're in charge of this army of tree planters you can see over here. Three men having their sandwich break there. So, you've been working them hard. Tim: We have been working them hard, indeed. Adam: So, just explain to me a little bit about what's going on here. Tim: So, today we can almost see the finishing line for our 30,000 trees. So, this morning we've actually planted just shy of 2,000 trees with the group that we've had, of which there's about 80 people. Adam: That's a lot of trees. People always talk about how long does it take to plant a tree? It's not that big a thing is it? Tim: No, but what we're keen about is it's not about necessarily speed, it's about accuracy. We want quality. So, what we're asking people to do is plant each tree really well. So, today I have to say the standard of planting has been amazing. From the first to the last, I haven't found one that I'm not happy with. Adam: So, explain to me, and we're standing by a tree that's just been planted. It looks like they've scraped a bit of the grass away. So, explain to me, how should you plant a tree and what goes wrong? Tim: OK, so what we've done here, we took the grass off before the guys came, so that's called scriefing. So, the purpose of that is the tree needs water. And this grass also needs water. So, we take that grass away, and the competition's gone away for the tree. So, it won't be forever, because within two years, that grass will have grown around that tree. But those first two years are quite critical. So, if we can get the new roots from, so those trees and little plugs, new roots which are going to come out in the next couple of weeks because the soil's warming up. I mean, the air's warming up, but the soil's warming up. Those will send out shoots. They're already starting to come in to leaf, which is why the urgency to get these trees in now. They will take in the water around them and then keep on spreading with that root system. Enough root system will go out there and it will then not be competing with the grass because in fact the tree will be competing with the grass and actually taking over. So, eventually that grass will probably die because it will be shaded out in the future. Adam: And talking about shade, I'm surprised how closely planted these are, about five foot apart or thereabouts. If this was a forest in 20 years', 30 years' time, it's exceptionally dense. Or are you expecting a lot of them to fail? Tim: So, imagine you've got an oak tree and that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So, it doubles its weight above ground. Adam: Sorry, 40,000? Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah. Adam: It's worth pausing on that *laughs* A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year? Tim: Every four years, roughly. Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they? Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance. So, they can now flourish. In time, so within sort of 10 to 12 years, we're going to start to be sending this out. So, you won't see this line. There are other parts on this site, 23 years old, and we've done a lot of filling through that. You wouldn't know it's been planted by, in a plantation. Adam: So, what would you, what's the failure rate? What's a good failure rate to stay with? Tim: It can really, really vary. I have to say that the soil here is tremendous. It's very rich. I'd be very surprised if we have a high failure rate. It could be 95% take. Adam: So, that's really interesting. And what are you planting then? I've seen some oak. I've seen some silver birch. What are you planting? Tim: So, Cheshire is all about oak and birch. So, 25% of these trees, so 7,500 are oak. And then 10% are silver birch. So that's 3,000. And then there's another 18 species that are all native to the UK that we're planting in here. So, things like rowan, holly, Scots pine and then we've got hazel, some large areas of hazel on this site that we've put in and then we've got hawthorn, blackthorn, couple of types of cherry, and then some interesting ones as well. So, we're putting some elm in and, specifically for a butterfly. So, there's a butterfly called white letter hairstreak. And the caterpillar feeds on the leaves of that tree. So, we've got those in Cheshire, but we're trying to expand it. And we've been working with the Butterfly Conservation group to get it right. So, they've given us some advice. Adam: I thought elm was a real problem with the Dutch elm disease? Tim: It still is. It still is. Adam: There was some talk that maybe some had found some natural resistance to Dutch elm disease. Tim: There are some resistant elm. And so, the plantings that we've done on here are what's classed as wych elm. It will still get Dutch elm disease, but it can last up to 16 years. And then there's always the opportunity to replant so we can get elm established. Then we can carry on spreading that through the site, so it's a starting point for that species we have. So again, we're trying to increase the biodiversity of the site by having specific trees for specific species. So, it's exciting. I mean, a lot's been lost and it won't become a beautiful wildflower meadow, although we are going to be doing some wildflower planting. We've already bought the seed. And in the next couple of weeks as it gets a little bit drier and a little bit warm, we're going to be, we're going to be sowing that in and that will come through the spring and summer. So, we've got lots to happen here as well. Adam: Oh brilliant. Well, it's so nice to see it at an early stage. I'll come back in a couple of years. Tim: It's probably one of the most exciting projects, tree wise, in Cheshire in a long time, because I've been doing this for a long, long time and these opportunities don't come up. So, for this to happen. And for the size of it as well. I mean, you're talking about a huge area of woodland now, over 180 acres. So, the second biggest area of woodland in Cheshire, so it's amazing. It truly is amazing. Adam: Well, I'm walking away. In fact, all tree planting has stopped for lunch. What is the time? Yeah, it's 12:45. So, everyone has stopped for sandwiches and teas, and they're spreading branches of some trees. And while they're doing that, two people are still working. That's me. And Paul? Hi. Paul: Hi. Adam: So, just explain to me what you do, Paul? Paul: I work as the comms and engagement manager for the north of England, so this is one of the best tree planting games we have had in a long time. Adam: And the people we've got here today, they're just locals? They from any particular groups? Paul: No, the Woodland Trust staff as part of our climate campaign now get a day to come out and we've got various corporate volunteering groups out also planters. We've got about 80 people out planting today. Adam: Well, that's amazing and we've just paused by this gorse bush. I'm rather partial to the gorse, so we'll take some shelter there. So, you talked about that this is part of a bigger campaign. What is that campaign? Paul: It's our climate campaign. And very simple hashtag plant more trees. So, trees are one, probably one of the best things we've got in the battle against climate change to help. And they have the added benefit that also they're good for biodiversity as well. So, twin track approach if you plant a tree. Obviously they're not the solution to everything, but we're hoping, as the Woodland Trust just to get more people planting trees. Adam: What is the target then? The sort of tree planting target you have? Paul: Well we have a target to get 50 million trees planted by 2030. Across all of the UK, so quite, quite a number. Adam: 50 million trees by 2030, so six years? Paul: Yeah, yeah. And we've, I think we've planted 6 million trees, 2023, yeah. Adam: Why is everyone taking a break? They've got millions to get in. That's quite an ambitious thing to get done, isn't it? Paul: Yeah. And we need, we need to plant billions of trees longer term. So, it's really important we get everyone planting trees, but it's all that message as well, right tree in the right place, and get trees planted where they're needed. Adam: And this is an unusual project, not least cause it's on an old golf course, which I've never heard of before. Has it attracted much interest? Is there a lot of engagement from the media and the public? Paul: Yeah, this site has had a remarkable amount of attention from the press. It started with local radio, then regional TV and then we've had things like Sky News Climate Show out here and then even international press coverage looking at rewilding of golf courses. CNN covered it alongside international golf courses and here in the UK, Frodsham. So, it's been amazing how it's captured everyone's imagination and it's been such a really positive good news story. It's a site that's a key site within the Northern Forest. So, the Northern Forest is another project that I'm involved with in the north of England, but. Adam: Did you say a little project? *laughs* Paul: Another, another project. Adam: Oh sorry. I was gonna say, a massive project. Paul: That's a massive project, which is again stretching, looking to plant 50 million trees from Liverpool to Hull and we're working with the Community Forests in each area, in this case the Mersey Forest and again just promoting grants and support to landowners and communities to get more, more trees planted and to help acquire land for tree planting and give the grants for tree planting. Adam: It must give you a warm feeling that your communications are actually being so well received that there is, it's not just you pushing out a message, that people want to hear this message. Paul: Yeah, it's really, really good to not have a negative message. Generally it's a really, really positive message that people wanted to hear because it's great for the community. They're getting some amazing green space with stunning views of the Mersey on the doorstep. It's interesting story about how we're changing from a golf course to a woodland site. We've got the ancient woodland, got natural regeneration. And just the fact that everyone's smiling, everyone's really happy and just so pleased that they're playing their small part in helping us create this new woodland site. Just great to be part of that, that positive good news story. Adam: Well, I'm going over to a group of people who have been busy planting all day but are now on their lunch break, just to bother them and ask them how their day has been and why they got involved in this. Adam: OK, well, you can, first of all, you can just shout out so, well we've, you all are hard at work I hear, but I've seen very little evidence of it cause everyone's sat down for lunch now. Have you all had a good day? Everyone: Yes. Adam: That would have been awful had they said no. Anyway, they all had a good day. So, I mean, it's lovely that you're out. You're all out here doing, I mean, very serious work. You've all got smiles on your face and everything. But this is important. I wonder why anyone's getting involved, what it means to you. Anyone got a view or get a microphone to you? Adam: So, what's your name? Volunteer 1: Rodon. Adam: Rodon. So, why are you here? Rodon: Well, nature, wildlife, planting, and I know the area quite well, so it's nice to see being developed in a sustainable way and being something for nature. It's a great place to come and visit, not far from the sandstone trail. I visit lots of Woodland Trust sites. I live in Warrington so it's sort of down the road, and it's, as I say, with the old wood over there that's quite an adventurous path. It's got lots of like sandstone sort of steps and little caves, and it's on the side of a cliff. So, this has kind of extended that over here as well. Adam: It would be a lovely thing to return to in a few years. Rodon: Well, it's a nice place now to be honest. Adam: Brilliant. Volunteer 2: My name is David Mays. I'm also from the from the town of Warrington as well. I'm an MSC and BSc student from local Hope University. I've finished both of them now, thankfully. I'm trying to get a job in the ecological management sector and I feel doing this working with people like Tim and Neil will help me massively get a, you know, it looks good on my CV. Most importantly, I really enjoy being out here and getting to know how the areas of ecological development, particularly in the woodland industry, is developing over the past few years and what are the plans for the future and what they hope to achieve in the long term and short term. Adam: That's very good. So, it's also very innovative of you putting out your CV live on air there. Good. Hopefully someone needing a job, with a job to offer will contact us. Good luck with that. So, oh yeah, we've come under another lovely tree. I mean it looks set. I was just saying to Kerry, it's so beautiful here. It looks like we've set this shot up. Really, you know? But here you are with your spades behind you taking a break from the trunk. So, first of all, have you, has it been a good day? Volunteer 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has been. It's been dry. Adam: It's been dry. OK. Alright. Well, let's get, so, the best thing about today is that it was dry. Volunteer 3: It's one of the positive points. Definitely. Yeah, after the trees. Adam: Yeah, with experience. So, why did you want to come out? What made you want to be part of this? Volunteer 3: Well, I think it's because we are having a bit of a push with the climate change agenda at the moment, so it's, working for the Woodland Trust it's just a nice opportunity to get away from the sort of the day job for me and get out into the field and actually do something practical and help towards that. Adam: Yeah. Did, I mean, has it been very physical for you today, has it? Volunteer 3: It's not been too bad, actually. It's been fine. Yeah. No, it's been OK. Ask me tomorrow, but yeah *laughs* Adam: Have you done this sort of stuff before? Volunteer 3: No, this is my first, this is my first planting day with the Trust. Adam: Yeah, and your last? Volunteer 3: No, no, I'll definitely no, it hasn't put me off. We'll definitely, definitely be back out again when I get the opportunity. It's been great. Adam: So, go on. Tell me what's all been like for you today? Volunteer 4: It's been really good. Yeah. I just can't believe we've covered so much ground in so little time, really. Seems we've only been here a few hours and because it's, I've been quite remote working from home, so it's quite nice kind of seeing some people I've met on screen, so it's nice to now, yeah, meet people in the real world and yeah, give back. I've never, I've not done anything like this before. Adam: So yeah, so is this your first time planting trees? Volunteer 5: It's not my first time planting trees, but it's my first time planting with the Trust. I was planting trees in my garden on the weekend, so I've done my back in. So, I've not quite got the planting rate of everyone else today I don't think, but you know, as the other guys were saying, we work office jobs really rather than on the front line of the Trust. So, it is good to get our hands dirty and to get involved with what we're supposed to be all about and contribute to our climate change campaign. So, hashtag plant more trees. Adam: Yeah. There we are, on message as well. Volunteer 5: I work in the brand team *laughs* Adam: There we are. There we are. Thank you. That's excellent. Adam: Now, really I should have started with this because we're nearing the end of my morning in the forest. But I've come to meet Esther, who's really one of the big brains behind the planting scheme. I know a bit modest about that, but tell me a little bit about what your involvement has been with this project. Esther: I've been a lead designer on this project, so I've been putting together the planting plans and lots of maps and really working with Neil, he's the site manager, to make sure that we make this the best scheme that we can make it. We've included coppice coupes for biodiversity and. Adam: Right, what's a coppice coupe? Esther: A coppice coupe is just an area of where you're planning to coppice. So, cut a tree down to its very base and then it grows back up as shoots. So, it only works with a few species and the species that we've chosen is hazel. So, those areas are 100% hazel. And it's great for biodiversity because you sort of go in a rotational like a 10-year cycle or something like that and you cut back say 10% of your trees in that year and then you get a lot of light to the ground and then you get hopefully a lot of floristic diversity coming through. Adam: And so, is that a job that, it sounds terrible the way I'm saying it – is that a job? Is it a job that you sit down and you go, you have a piece of paper or computer and you go, this is where we're, how we're gonna design the forest. We're gonna put ash over there. We're gonna put oak over there. Is that what you do? Esther: Yeah. Yeah. So, we use something called GIS. So, geographical information systems which basically let you draw shapes on a map and then you can colour code it and basically make a really coherent design of something to tell people, you know, what you're trying to achieve. What's gonna go where. Adam: And it's not every, it's not like building an extension to a house where you go well, there's probably thousands and going on all the time. There can't be that many forests being planted each day, so this must be a significant thing in your career I would have thought. Esther: Oh yeah, this is my first woodland creation scheme that I've seen from pretty much the start to the finish, so I've been working on it for 18 months and then an awful lot of hours gone into it. It's been really enjoyable and it's just a wonderful, wonderful to see it coming together. And yeah, and we're nearly finished now, so. Adam: And I know people often think, oh well, I'll come back in 100 years' time and you know, my great grandchildren might see these trees. But actually, within your career, you will see a forest here won't you. Esther: Yeah. So, I think within 10 years it will look like a woodland. It's had, this site has a history of agriculture, so it should in theory have a lot of nutrients in the soil. So, the trees should grow really well. So yeah, I would say within 10 to 15 years, it should look like fully fledged woodland, if not a bit young, but yeah. Adam: And are you optimistic about really the change that you and your colleagues can make? Cause there's a lot of pessimism around. What's your view? Esther: I think it's a really exciting time to be working in the environment sector and there's a lot of enthusiasm for making big changes in our lives and big changes in our landscape. I think there's a lot of hope to be had. And yeah, just seeing like the amount of enthusiasm on a planting day like this really fills me with a great deal of hope, yeah. Adam: Yeah. Have you planted any trees yourself? Esther: I have, yeah. Adam: How many of these have been yours, you reckon? Esther: We have 15, probably not that many *laughs* Adam: Oh, that's not bad. I thought you were gonna be like The Queen. I planted one. There was a round of applause and I went home *laughs* Esther: No, I put a lot of guards on, but yeah, not planting that many trees myself. Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me. Our half day out here and I'll definitely return. It's amazing, amazing, positive place. Esther: Wonderful, yeah. Adam: And the sun has shone on us. Metaphorical smile from the sun. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Esther: Thank you so much. *song plays* Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to The Woodland Trust website which is www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Industrial Talk is chatting with Adam Pierno, Brand Strategy Leader at Arizona State University about “Understanding Yourself from the Customers' Perspective”.  The following is a summary of our conversation: Industrial IoT security and marketing strategies. 0:00 Palo Alto Networks offers industrial IoT security solutions with improved ROI and reduced complexity. Scott MacKenzie interviews Adam on industrial talk, discussing marketing, sales, and leadership in the utility industry. Adam shares insights from his book on branding and marketing, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and education. Brand strategy and customer insights. 5:51 Adam is a brand strategist at Arizona State University, where he practices and teaches data-driven audience and brand strategy. Adam's work involves figuring out the complexity of the Sun Devils brand across academics, athletics, and lifelong learning, and helping mid-sized and small businesses with similar challenges. Branding and marketing for a university. 8:18 Scott MacKenzie asks Speaker 2 about differentiation at Arizona State University (ASU), with a focus on brand and how it relates to the school's charter. Adam explains that ASU's brand is built on the idea of providing opportunities for everyone who wants an education, regardless of who they are or where they come from. Adam highlights the importance of understanding the customer's perspective when marketing a business, emphasizing that the customer's needs and wants should be the focus of any messaging. Adam and Scott MacKenzie discuss the potential for a manufacturer to be passionate about their product, but the messaging may need to be adjusted to better resonate with customers. Understanding customer base for business growth. 13:23 Adam identifies two groups of customers: "best customers" who buy high-margin products and "light buyers" who are new to the category. Adam creates a Venn diagram to balance messaging that retains current customers while attracting new ones. Scott MacKenzie emphasizes the importance of thorough persona development for businesses, using customer interviews and geographic research to gain insights into customer preferences and behaviors. Market research and customer insights. 18:02 Adam explains that customers often don't know how to identify their competitors, and it's not always clear-cut. Adam uses interviews with customers to gather insights on their competitive landscape, but it requires asking the right questions and building rapport with the customers. Scott MacKenzie: "The number one output of research is more research." Adam : "It's like mining for gold, you usually find a big deposit, and then you're chasing dust." Involving stakeholders in research and addressing conflicts. 23:46 Scott MacKenzie and Speaker 2 discuss the importance of involving all stakeholders in the research process to ensure buy-in and success. Adam uses workshops and active listening to address...

Welcome to Count Me In, with your host, Adam Larson. In this episode, Adam is joined by Tim Hedley, the Executive in Residence at Fordham University and Shari Littan, Director, Corporate Reporting Research & Thought Leadership at IMA.  Join this thought-provoking discussion as they delve into the importance of internal controls, the evolving landscape of sustainability reporting, and the challenges and benefits organizations face in adopting sustainable business practices.Discover how the COSO framework, the gold standard for reliable reporting, has been adapted to include non-financial reporting objectives, aligning with the rise of sustainability and ESG reporting. Explore critical trends in the world of ESG reporting, from increasing regulations to stakeholder engagement and supply chain transparency.Learn from Tim and Shari as they share their insights on the challenges organizations face in implementing sustainable practices and balancing short-term profits with long-term sustainability goals. Understand the significance of internal controls in providing a basis for external assurance and building stakeholder trust in reported information.Join Tim and Shari for a live event Nov 30 - Dec 1 in NYC. Register todayFull Episode Transcript:< Intro > Adam:            Welcome to another episode of Count Me In. In today's episode, joining us are two guest experts. Tim Hedley, who is Executive-in-Residence at Fordham University, and Shari Littan, Director, Corporate Reporting, Research and Thought Leadership at IMA. Our discussion revolves around the importance of internal controls and sustainability reporting. And how they enhance trust, accountability, and reliability of the reported information.  Tim and Shari share insights from the COSO framework. Which was developed to help improve confidence in all types of data and information. The landscape of sustainability reporting is constantly evolving, with shifting regulatory requirements and increased stakeholder expectations. We explore crucial trends; such as the focus on materiality and risk assessments, stakeholder engagement, supply chain transparency, and evolving reporting metrics. Let's get started, with this enlightening conversation.  < Music > Adam:            Shari, Tim, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We're really excited to be talking about COSO, internal control, and everything in that whole ESG world. But just for our listeners, who may be unfamiliar, you could've, probably, have heard the term COSO, or ICSR, and those things before, but maybe you're not familiar with those terms. Maybe, Shari, you could take a little bit of time and define, maybe, a high-level overview of what COSO is, the significant, internal control framework, and the purpose of the new documents. Shari:             I'd be happy to, thanks, Adam, it's great to be here. So COSO stands for Committee of Sponsoring Organizations and it came about in the late 1980s. It is a collaboration of five accountancy and auditing organizations. There's the American Accounting Association, which is an academic organization, primarily. AICPA, everyone is familiar. IMA, where we sit, and we primarily focus on the accountants and finance professionals in business, the in-house folks are ours. Institute of Internal Auditors, and FEI, Financial Executives International. So those five organizations make up COSO. COSO came about in the late 1980s, amid what was then the savings and loans crisis, and there was concern that the profession needed to do better. That we were starting to see major accounting failures, disclosure, litigation, regulation, questions. Are we doing the right things in the profession?" So the five accountancy organizations got together, and they said, "How are we going to resolve this? How are we going to promote trust and accountability in what we do, as a profession?" The focus became on this concept of internal controls, which we'll get to.  So in '92, after that, the COSO, as an organization, produced its first internal control framework. And then we can move forward to 1990s, late 1990s, 2000, the Enron, WorldCom's era, which led to Sarbanes-Oxley. And Sarbanes-Oxley, rather than looking at the substance of what a company needs to disclose, again, looked at the idea of governance process, auditing, and said, "In order to produce financial reports to the markets, you need to focus on your systems and your controls. You need management to speak to it, in your reporting system. You need auditors to address controls." We had the PCAOP. So we have this Sarbanes-Oxley, which created this idea of internal controls over financial reporting. And, although, Sarbanes Oxley didn't specifically say, "You must use the COSO framework." It was considered the best thing around, and it's become the gold standard in how to produce reliable financial or corporate reporting in more general. Now, in 2013, the framework was refreshed, we got a new internal control framework. And what it did, in the 2013 refresh, is it added the idea of non-financial reporting objectives. That was around the same time, about 10 years ago, when we started to see all kinds of sustainability integrated, ESG, reporting frameworks. And, so, though not express, what the framework did, in its refresh, was say "Yes, this is completely applicable to these types of activities and reporting." And, so, that leads us to where we are, today. Where, earlier, in 2023 we issued the internal control over sustainability reporting publication. And what the authors did, in that publication, was we looked at the existing internal control framework and said, "Okay, now we're seeing an acceleration of ESG or sustainability reporting and activities, performance and activities.  And that means we need good information, and that means we need quality information and transparency. Let's look at the COSO Internal Control Framework, and see how we can interpret it and apply it to these new forms of reporting. Adam:            Shari, I think that's a great overview. And, as you mentioned, there's the ever evolving nature of this new type of non-financial reporting, ESG reporting. There are shifts in regulatory compliance. We were just speaking before we started recording how this could change, or that could change, or this regulatory body can make a statement, at this moment, at this time, how this is constantly changing.  And, Tim, maybe, I'll ask you, how do you see this landscape changing? And what should organizations be, particularly, aware of, especially, with the ever evolving nature and things constantly moving? Tim:               Well, Adam, thank you, and thank you for having me here. The sustainability reporting landscape has rapidly changed, particularly, recently, to meet stakeholder expectation, and government regulations. And, Adam, your question could be an entire podcast, or a big section of this podcast if we had that kind of time, but I do see some critical trends, just some of the ones, from my perspective.  I mean, many people are out there, I'm sure Shari's got all kinds of ideas of what those trends might be. But there are some that just come to mind, for me. I think the biggest one that I think about a lot, and certainly what I experience in the classroom, and then talking to people who are in the field of sustainability reporting, some of the people I work with in different contexts, I think the first one is increasing regulation.Regulatory bodies, worldwide, are increasing their focus on sustainability reporting. And, personally, I think we should expect ever more stringent reporting requirements. And an interesting case in point, I think, is under the new California Climate Corporate Data Accountability Act. U.S. companies with annual revenues of $1 billion or more, in the State of California, for report both their direct and indirect greenhouse gas emissions, in the next few years. I think that's a huge change and really indicative of the kinds of things that we can expect going forward.  I think next is, probably, increased investor pressure, I have no doubt about that. Institutional investors are placing more emphasis on sustainability factors, while making investment decisions. And, actually, I just saw an actual run of this, recently, last month, actually, they are employing very structured analysis using very detailed sustainability factors. So I think there's going to be more and more demand for increased disclosures, and that's not going to go away anytime soon. I think we're going to see more focus on meaningful materiality and risk assessments. People are paying a lot of attention to ensuring there are robust materiality and risk assessments, that identify and prioritize issues that are most relevant to businesses and to stakeholders. Stakeholder engagement will increasingly be more important.  Engaging with stakeholders now is critical, but, I think, it's only going to become ever more so, as we move through this process. There appears to be a much keener focus on greenwashing, and I, personally, think this is a huge problem for us. I think it's actually gotten to the point, where it seems that the perception of greenwashing is causing some pushback in this space and, actually, almost threatening the integrity of the effort. I think we're going to have to think a lot more about honest transparency, in this process. Do we want people to actually buy into this and trust the process, and the kinds of things, this year, I was just talking about? I think I'm leaning directly toward that notion of more honest transparency. I think there's going to be a greater focus on supply chain transparency. Particularly around human rights, DEI, environmental impact, all these kinds of things. I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg in this space. I think reporting, metrics will continue to change. The metrics that investors and stakeholders focus on are changing really fast. We are seeing a great deal of movement in the EU, in particular. For example, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, which went into effect this past January, it's extending the requirement to report on sustainability management from a select number of companies in the EU to nearly all companies in the EU. Except these little micro companies, I guess. So, again, a lot of movement here, a lot of stuff is changing. My bottom line, I mean, I could keep listing these things. But my bottom line is that sustainable reporting is dynamic, it's always changing, and, as professionals, we must stay informed about changes in regulations, investor perceptions, and societal expectations.Shari:             Can I add just one thing to what Tim said, and that is we tend to focus, or we have tended to focus, when we think about corporate reporting on public companies. Because naturally there are securities regulations both in the U.S. and in various jurisdictions around the world. But one thing that we are seeing in the world of sustainability, or ESG information, is that it is going to affect small and medium-sized companies. Maybe not direct corporate disclosure, but to their commercial customers into supply chain. We're actually seeing where a large public company, for example, has made net-zero commitments or other kind of commitments. And they talk about that in their public materials, and it goes into their ratings, et cetera. Well, they turn around and turn to their suppliers and say, "If you want to sell to us, we want your carbon footprint data. We want your modern slavery DE&I data. And we're seeing, in a positive way, in certain places, where the large commercial buyer is working along with the smaller suppliers. The component, the agricultural companies, to say, "Let's find ways that we can work together."  And it has become a competitive advantage for non-public companies to be able to say, "Not only can I deliver your components, but I can deliver your components along with quality information." We're seeing supplier audits in this area starting to come up, or industry collaborations where they're setting standards. So it's not only public companies to think about. Tim:               It's not just the public companies, because I've had conversations with a lot of organizations, they're asking for my help in responding to their customers. And if they're part of the supply chain, they will, certainly, have to disclose Scope 1, 2, & 3 emissions. Shari:             Exactly. Tim:               And one of the problems they have is they have no clue, what in the world that company is talking about. They don't even know what the starting point is. We're talking about internal controls over sustainability reporting, this is wonderful stuff. But if you're a small organization, that's never even heard of this space, that has no idea how to report. A lot more education is going to be necessary for that upstream and downstream indirect emissions providers. I've had people call me up and say, "They're asking, now, my employees, how far do they drive to work? What kind of a car do they drive?" And all of these kinds of things, and it's very confusing for, in particular Scope 1, Scope 3, emissions information providers. Like "How in the world do I capture this stuff?" And, Shari, you're absolutely right, large organizations can't get where they want to get to with their reporting, unless the entire value chain comes on board. Adam:            That makes a lot of sense, and there's going to be so much pressure from the consumers and regulatory bodies. And I can imagine it's overwhelming for any organization. Maybe somebody is listening to this and saying, "I know I need to do something." And, so, maybe, we can define what some of the benefits are to organizations and some advantages, if they can apply the sustainability business, the internal control integrated framework, to their organization.Shari:             Well, I will say that, first of all, one of the great benefits of looking to the COSO framework, or ICSR as we're referring to it in shorthand, is that we already know how to do a lot of this. We have the ability to leverage what we already know about building good governance systems, and controls, and processes, and oversight into our company systems, and looking at the information flow. We can train, think about training our board, and our members, but we already have a lot of the tools, and the know-how to address the concerns. It's not as esoteric or new, it really can be rooted in what we already do. Second, another great benefit is that, although, we think about COSO Internal Control with respect to external financial reporting. When you actually get into the framework, it is enterprise wide, it is holistic.  If you want good reporting, well, then, you need good information, and that means you are tracking your activities, and what your company is doing. And if the company is taking steps to actually become more sustainable in their performance. Of how they source energy, and how they human resources, and take care of waste, and all of those things. So it runs throughout an entire organization.  And the thing that I find is that when you think about it holistically, you start with the concept of purpose. So if you look at the publication, you look at the framework, you look at principle one, a commitment to ethical behavior, of being a good corporate citizen. And what is your purpose?  Why does your company or organization exist in the world?  What are you aiming to achieve? Why should all of your investors, and stakeholders, and employees, stay with you?  What are they going to get out of this; with respect to performance, and activities, and returns? So it leverages a reexamination, it leads to a reexamination, I should say. Why does our organization exist?  What are we doing, and are we doing these things efficiently? Are we doing them effectively? When I first started writing this publication, when I was tapped to become part of the authorship team. I said, "Internal controls and sustainability, well, that feels a little apples and oranges, to me." But, in fact, it's really about focusing on goals. It's focusing on purpose, and objectives, and how the company achieves those, and the information that it uses to decide how it's going to use these resources. Tim:               And I think I'll add something because I thought that was a great explanation by Shari. The bottom line is, from my perspective, I think the framework we're dancing or advocating and what has been put together with respect to internal control and sustainable reporting, it's comprehensive. It has widespread acceptance, it focuses correctly, in my belief, on risk management. It's very adaptable. When I read the publication that Shari co-authored, it's absolutely adaptable. We had with the internal control, the Internal Control Integrated Framework, absolutely adaptable, and it works perfectly here. And, really, most importantly, it has absolute global applicability Shari:             Yes, when I hear Tim say that global applicability is that there are so many regulators, and policymakers, and standard setters, and all sorts of organizations that are saying, "Here's what you need to report." It's a lot on the what to report, but this gives a framework of method of how. Tim:               Yes, and it does a good job with that. Adam:            I think you've given a great explanation about all the advantages and how it benefits. But I can't imagine that it's an easy process, and there are got to be challenges that people can encounter along the way. Maybe we can discuss a few of those challenges, to help people feel at ease. Tim:               When I was thinking through this, you can talk about some of the challenges. But, I think, it might make sense to talk about what some of the benefits are before we got to the challenges, perhaps, because I found that significant. I think the first, at least, from my perspective, the first benefit is enhanced reputation. A commitment to a purpose-driven business can enhance an organization's reputation, there's very little doubt about that. And there's a fair amount to thought leadership research, and surveys, and what have you, that support what I just said. If you look at GM, you look at Procter & Gamble, those are great examples of companies, in their sustainability report that have detailed their corporate purpose in very explicit ways, and easy to read, and make a lot of sense. And really I tell you in this space, there's been a paradigm shift. From just being a shareholder-first mentality, to say, "Hey, well, you know what, there are a lot of stakeholders." I think through this process you can gain a competitive advantage. Gain business practices, it can help recruit, and retain talent, just for one example. They can foster innovation. They can lead to development of new products and services. Think about electric vehicles, think about solar, think about power storage. These are all kinds of industries that we were not even really thinking much about not that many years ago, at least, not in a serious way. They can provide access to new markets and opportunities. And one thing I found very important, certainly, as my work over the last 25 years in the governance space and what have you, I can go a long way to increasing stakeholder trust and engagements. It can also have significant cost savings. Case in point is 3M's, 3Ps-Pollution Prevention Pays.And if you look at a sustainability report you'll see that, "Hey, this has saved billions of dollars since its inception." And they do a good job now of highlighting it, even though this was before we were really talking about sustainability, and ESG, and these things, and they were on top of some of the stuff. Risk mitigation, sustainable practice if well executed, it can mitigate environmental, social, and governance risk, ESG risks. It can help avoid costly reputational damage, integrity breakdowns, governmental scrutiny, fines and penalties, all kinds of benefits. Help provide access to capital, companies that demonstrate strong sustainable performance. Can often find it easier to access capital from socially responsible investors and from institutions that prioritize sustainable investments. Can lead to long-term value creation by producing a more stable and sustainable business model, less risk, and what I would say are higher valuations. And I think that's the greatest selling point for, actually, doing this stuff in a very serious way. It really is all about long-term value creation. And, of course, finally, I would say it can differentiate your brand. If you embrace sustainability and corporate purpose, you can distinguish yourself from competitors and build a brand that resonates with your consumers. Remember, it's all about the consumers in the end. There are some challenges which you had mentioned earlier, when we talked about it earlier. I think one of the biggest ones, the initial investment costs for sustainable products and efforts can be very expensive. Perhaps beyond the grasp of some, but well worth the investment for many. Understanding shifting consumer preferences is not always straightforward. Encouraging consumers to choose sustainable options over conventional ones can be slow and a challenging journey. Sometimes these sustainable options are perceived, sometimes, as being more expensive. Regulatory compliance can be demanding. It may require continuous adjustments to business operations. Clients with changing environmental regulations and standards can require continuous adjustments to your business operations. Which may pose significant operational challenges. Another big one is balancing short-term and long-term objectives it's often tricky. Organizations may, counter a lot of pressure to prioritize immediate profits over long-term sustainability, creating both internal and external pressure. And some may, I'm afraid, think you have to sacrifice one for the other. And, Adam, I don't buy into that, I don't believe that. But a lot of people do believe that, it's an either/or kind of thing. There are significant resource limitations above and beyond the budget I mentioned earlier. Things like renewable energy sources, sometimes, are hard to find. Sourcing sustainable materials can be really difficult, not to mention human resources and talent acquisition can be very difficult. Complex global operations are challenging. Multinationals might face headwinds in implementing uniform sustainability standards across diverse regulatory environments, cultural norms, socio-economic situations. Further global supply chains are incredibly complex. Much more so than domestic organizations, and requires a great deal of collaboration to make this work. And, then, finally, in this area, I would say the greenwashing concerns, we kind of touched upon it earlier. But with the focus on sustainability, there is a risk of an organization engaging in greenwashing. Where they make misleading claims about the environmental benefits of their products or operations. Such practices can lead to reputational damage and loss of trust among stakeholders.  I know I've talked twice about greenwashing, but it is a huge problem. And it really is undermining a lot of the good efforts taking place in this area. So to help ensure long-term viability and success, I think it's important to develop a comprehensive strategy that aligns sustainability goals with the overall corporate purpose. Shari:             Listening to Tim, I'm reminded of a story that was shared with me a few years ago, now. It was my colleague in an agricultural company. And, of course, the questions came to them about carbon footprint, "Are you measuring greenhouse gases, et cetera?"  And, so, they started to do that measurement, the inventory, instituting their processes. And in doing that what they discovered is a huge waste of water because they were looking at how they produce and operate in a more holistic, as you say, totality.  And, so, in trying to quantify and measure their carbon footprint they ended up changing their entire system of water and reduced it by a lot. So they ended up having gains, by extension, to new streams of information, that they hadn't been looking at before. Tim:               It really is an exercise in navel-gazing, looking deep inside yourself, to actually do this stuff. And it's not an easy process, but that's a great example of where there are all kinds of benefits, well, and it's unintended benefits, from actually going through this process, and a lot of discovery takes place. You learn a lot about yourself. Adam:            It really sounds like you can learn a lot. And I think you've kind of illustrated, my last question was going to be around, how does this framework play a crucial role in ensuring effective governance, and rules, and internal control systems. Especially, concerning sustainable business practices, and what you just displayed there, Shari, for us, was a great example of that. And if there are any other examples you guys can share, I think that would be really helpful, and encouraging as people are thinking about this and looking at it. Because it's inevitable that it will be affecting every organization. Shari:             Yes, here's another example that I thought of, when you're getting more into the risk and the overall reasons, to think about sustainable business. But I do remember if you drive along highways now, how often do you see charging stations. In fact, I saw, not far from where I live, a former gas station had completely changed into an electric vehicle station. And I thought somebody else in that supply chain, if you create fuel pumps, you might want to think about changing that business model, and that's what the information can bring forward. Tim:               Yes, earlier I had mentioned that notion of a robust, risk, and materiality assessment. And just adding on to what Shari was saying, I had a conversation not long ago with a tire manufacturer. So they were doing deep dives and taking it very seriously. But they started understanding things that were hugely important and material, they'd never thought about before. For example, when you drive down the road, your tread wears out of your tire. You don't think about, "Where does that rubber go?" Maybe it goes in the atmosphere, it goes on the street, it goes on the side of the road. And suddenly, wow, they're materiality mapping and that process is hugely dynamic. The risk assessment is dynamic, and I think people are looking for that dynamic approach to these kinds of things. You can be an energy company just delivering electricity for a municipality, and suddenly you start getting into solar panels. And, suddenly, "Wow, we got new risk, where are they sourced? Where is this stuff coming from? What does that supply chain look like?" So a lot of interesting things that actually pop out of going through this process. And a lot of it leads to much better decisions and also uncovering important things and cost savings, it's all there. Adam:            Tim, Shari, do you have any final thoughts for our audience? Shari:             Well, as we wrap up, I want to just bring it back to why the internal control, and the COSO framework, and that publication, in thinking about all these new types of activities and new types of information, that has risk associated with it. And there are business risks, but there are also risks in the information. For example, we talk about supply chain, so in order to account for Scope 1, not Scope 1 because that's your data. But Scope 2 and Scope 3, you, by definition, need to get information that doesn't come from your system that you're responsible for, it has to come from a third party. So there's risk in that information. So we need to think about other controls. We need to think about affiliates, or other investees, or companies that we outsource to, that we used to consider immaterial for financial reporting purposes, but now we need their information. Green Bonds, is another, where we're affirming to our lender that we are in compliance with certain ESG metrics and then they lower our interest rate, that's informational risk.  We also have the risk of estimation and expectations, and how we measure prospective assumptions and leads to that kind of reporting. I think that's really huge because so much of sustainability reporting, including some of the mandatory disclosure requirements coming out of Europe, double materiality, impact accounting, it means estimating the future. That's what sustainability is all about. Do we have the resources made available to us in the future? Can we count on that?  Are stakeholders willing to make those available? So, anyway, it goes to the question of estimating the future, which makes many, in traditional accounting, uncomfortable. They don't like to disclose and report on the future and our assumptions. But that's a necessary part of creating the measurement techniques in order to effectuate all these new demands, for reporting all these new KPIs. What I'm saying is that by following what we already know how to do, By leveraging the frameworks that we already have, it can highlight and help direct us address the innovative areas, the information, the use of digital technology, perhaps, to bring this about in a reliable way, and avoid the greenwashing that Tim has highlighted for us. Tim:               Yes, I think the things that you talked about resonate with a lot of things we talked about earlier. Those things are all about long-term value creation. Shari:             Agreed, absolutely. Tim:               You got to be thinking about the future. And, also, one of the things that I see from the work you've done here and the internal controls of sustainability reporting. I think it's going to go a long way to helping with the notion of external assurance of this information. Because now we'll have internal controls in place that make some sense, that can be tested in and of themselves, it gives a lot more confidence in what's being reported. Because stakeholders are going to take some of this stuff with a grain of salt. Unless someone actually opines it, "Hey, wow, you know what they're telling you it seems accurate enough. It's doing what it's supposed to do."  I think that's going to be a huge underpinning for the document we've been discussing here. Because I think it's going to go a long way to enabling that. And unless you have that third-party attestation, the trust may not be there until we get to that point. I don't know, that's just my prediction. Adam:            Well, I appreciate you guys sharing your final thoughts and sharing all your insights with our audience, today. And thanks so much, again, for coming on the podcast. Shari:             Thanks so much, Adam. Tim, it's been a pleasure.  < Outro > Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders, from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting in finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imainet.org.

Welcome to the Count Me In podcast with your host Adam Larson and special guest Dan DeGolier! In this episode, Adam and Dan, founder and CEO of Ascent CFO Solutions, dive into the fascinating world of AI and its application in the finance and accounting sectors. Discover how AI is enhancing efficiency and reducing errors, while also exploring the potential challenges and ethical considerations it presents. Join us as we explore the evolving landscape of AI in fractional leadership. Tune in now for an engaging discussion you won't want to miss!Full Episode Transcript: Adam:            Welcome back for another exciting episode of Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson, and today we have a special guest joining us, Dan DeGolier. The founder and CEO of Ascent CFO Solutions. We start off by exploring current use cases of AI in the industry. Such as coding transactions and streamlining forecasting processes.  But as Dan points out, we're only scratching the surface of what AI can do. The potential for growth and efficiency is immense. But it's important to proceed with caution and be aware of the biases and ethical considerations that come along with it.  Throughout this episode we highlight the evolving role of finance and accounting professionals, in the age of AI, and how they can adapt to leverage its benefits. From bookkeepers, to CFOs, to fractional CFOs, AI has the power to enhance efficiency and transform the way we approach financial management. So grab your headphones, and join us as we uncover the exciting world of AI in accounting. Let's dive in. < Music > Well, Dan, we're so excited to have you on the podcast today, as we're going to talk about AI and fractional leadership. And just to get started, as we think about AI, how is it currently being applied to finance and accounting sectors? Obviously, it does things like enhance efficiency and reduce errors, but how is it being applied in those areas?  Dan:                Yes, thanks for having me on, Adam. It's a pleasure to meet you, pleasure to be here. I think we're just getting started, for one thing. AI, even though it's been around for a while, ChatGPT, GPT 4, and all those things, are relatively new to the mainstream. And, so, a lot of this stuff we're just starting to figure out right now.  Definitely, in the accounting side, we're starting to see some use cases for coding transactions and things like that. I think there are a lot of opportunities in our world, in the finance realm. When it comes to forecasting, to be able to streamline multiple scenarios and make iterations to financial models and forecasts.  I think that's an area that we're starting to see develop. And, then, things like pricing strategy and looking at different ways to price and run different scenarios around that. Using large language models, and data, and being able to bring in data and run multiple scenarios and see what things look like there. I think those are all some areas that we're starting to see.  But, honestly, because it's so early, what is really going to be the biggest use cases, two years from now, is probably something we haven't thought of. Or somebody's thought of but hasn't really been implemented, yet. Adam:            Yes, that's a great point, that we're so early in the generative AI phase that some organizations are adapting quickly, other ones aren't. And software companies are trying to integrate it into there but it's still in the early phases. So our traditional role- Dan:                And it's still prone to errors as well. Adam:            Exactly. Dan:                Yes, we've all read the articles about the lawyer who tried to use it for briefs and got in huge trouble, and the hallucinations are still rampant. So I think proceed with caution, but recognize that it has enormous potential and don't be left behind.  I was going to say, I've heard that it's been compared to if you look at Web 1.0, the emergence of the Internet, and commercial use, that this could be a 10x-type of opportunity. From a growth potential, from an efficiency potential, et cetera, it's just fascinating to me, just how massive this could be, and how life-changing this is. Adam:            Well, and also the bias that's implicit in there, in the AI. Because there are so many biases among how people think, wording, that's out there in the Internet and how it's learning. There's going to be that bias that you have to get over as well. Because it's going to be embedded in there because of how it is societally. Dan:                Correct, yes, I agree with that. I think one other ethical consideration that needs to be taken into account, when you're implementing AI, is things around copyright infringement, and intellectual property, and protection there. I think the chatbots aren't necessarily aware of what's IP and protected and what's not.  And, so, it's important that we take into that, that there's a human overseeing that, and making sure that there's nothing being taken out of context or being utilized improperly. And along the same lines, research is another area. Tax research and other types of accounting research is a place where there is a lot of use cases for AI.  But, again, this is where you need to be very careful around trusting that research and validating that it is accurate. So we don't end up in a situation, where something that's not valid is being utilized. Adam:            It's going to be very difficult to understand what has been verified and what hasn't, and as you're doing research and as you're looking at things online. I imagine new tools are going to have to be developed to verify, "Yes, this is valid." Or "No, it's not." And how do you trust those as you go forward? Dan:                Yes, that's really important, and there are going to be mistakes made. As we start to adopt this, we're going to see mistakes being made. And, as humans, we need to learn from our mistakes and learn from others' mistakes, that's how we evolve. Adam:            Mh-hmm. Do you think that the traditional roles in finance and accounting are going to change because of these? I mean, obviously, they are. But how can we adapt as we go forward? Dan:                Yes, I think, first thing I would suggest is pay attention to what's going on, see what's evolving, see where things are taking it. I think it's going to definitely change the accounting side, the day-to-day transactional stuff. There's a YouTuber out there, Hector Garcia, who has done some demos of how you can plug in a ChatGPT tool into QuickBooks Online, and how that can help ease the coding of transactions and things like that. So it's definitely going to change that bookkeeper and junior accountant role significantly, I think it'll change all aspects. The CFO's desk, it's going to still require somebody with experience, and knowledge, and understanding, to validate what's coming out of it. Just like in any other industry, there's a lot of need to confirm, and double-check, and be heavily involved at that strategic level. But I think it'll make us more efficient. Adam:            Yes, I definitely agree with that. And as you're talking about things like analysis and looking at it from that higher level. I mean, obviously, the AI has a better computing power, but we still need that human element. And how does that traditional human analysis going to affect, as we look at the output from the AI? Dan:                Yes, that it's still going to be critical. Machines are going to do a lot of the analysis and it'll find pattern. It's better at pattern recognition than us, especially. with large data sets. But when it comes back to that human element of truly understanding, and the uniqueness of certain things, it's going to require a human element.  In preparation for this call, I was thinking a lot about fraud detection, and you got large data sets out there. I think, again, back to pattern recognition, AI can be really good at identifying things that stand out and look unusual. I mean, if you think about, maybe, purchase orders or sales orders that look unusual.  Maybe have overrides from managers and they can look for patterns there, where particular users, within an accounting system or ERP system, might see that something that a particular manager might tend to override things more often. Or looking at addresses, and zip codes, and understanding if there might be some inappropriate payments made that match up to addresses, vendors matchup to employee addresses or things like that. So that could be bogus, that could be fraudulent.  I think those things are going to be a huge area for auditors, both, internal and external auditors starting to use those data sets. Where that AI tool can go in and start digging around and finding some unusual patterns.  Adam:            Yes, and thinking about implementing AI, within your organization, if you're really considering this, you've done all the research. What are some challenges or ethical considerations that should be addressed, when implementing it? Dan:                The first thing that comes to mind is security. Right now, I've been reading some things that we're trying to be able to bring it inside your intranet, bring in those tools inside your internet. But you don't want to have breaches of data, things that go out, where the chatbot is getting a hold of your corporate data and then utilizing that in the greater universe. And, so, that's going to be really critical, is that we solve for security concerns where things stay within the four walls very clearly. That's the first thing that comes to mind.  And I think the other one is touched on earlier, which is just trusting it too much and seeing that something that comes out of it is just trustworthy, as opposed to really validating it. Whether that's research around case law, when it comes to tax law, or whether it has to do with... Just what comes out of a financial model, and what's practical from a pipeline perspective and things like that, when you're forecasting your financials. Adam:            Yes, so as we look to the future, when it comes to AI. What are some of the breakthroughs that you think will happen within the finance and accounting industry, as we look to the future with AI? Dan:                Automation, in general, and that can take multiple forms. We touched on the accounting coding of transactions and things like that, I think that's a big part of it. There can be a lot more automation around all of the accounting cycles. Whether it be payroll, invoicing, accounts payable, there can be a tremendous amount of automation on that side.  Variance analysis when it comes to your soft close of the books, your initial review of a month-end close. I think there can definitely be an analysis and digging in a transaction, and looking for those variances to prior periods variances, to budget variances, to forecast, and pulling those out. So I think there can be some automation around that. And, then, again, on the financial modeling piece, the forecast piece, there will be automation there as well. Adam:            So one area of expertise that you have a lot of expertise in, is the fractional leadership, the fractional executive, and especially the fractional CFO. And as we're talking about AI and the changing of how that CFO looks. How do you see the ability to have this AI as a fractional CFO? How does that really enhance your ability to help the organizations, that you're within that fractional capacity? Dan:                Yes, well at our firm, we're technology first, and we've always been focused on automation where we can. So I think for us, it's going to be those same types of approaches. Where we find ways to be more efficient, to be more cost-effective, to really implement these tools. Identify the best use cases for these tools, kind of trust but verify. Make sure that you still got that adult supervision, with that AI tool. But really leaning into it and making it a tool that speeds up data for the C-suite.  The faster you can close your books, the faster you can update your model, the faster you can make adjustments. When you see something change with your pipeline, I think, more agile executive team can act. Adam:            So when you're coming in as a fractional executive, a lot of times the best place for that model is an organization in transition. And, so, that's what I've been reading when I've had other conversations. It seems like it's organizations that are in transition, and when you're in that transition, it seems like you would be looking at all your systems. But how do you come in and say, "Hey, I want to have this technology first and utilize these tools." But they have never used those before. How do you bridge that gap? Dan:                Yes, it's an incremental process. I mean, when we look at working with a company, they are often going through a transition. Maybe, they're looking to raise an additional round of capital. They've recently raised another round of capital. They've got a new board reporting requirements. They need better discipline when it comes to forecasting their cash flow.  So if they're a little behind the 8-ball, when it comes to technology, it's going to be incremental steps. You first have to get a really solid ERP, or accounting system in place that is trustworthy and fully GAAP. Whether they're audited or not, you want them to be fully on accrual GAAP basis.  Once you have that, then, you start to put in place those data visualization tools. That's something we've been leaning into really heavily the last year or two, is creating really robust dashboards and data visualization, that not only show your historical financials, but your forecast, and your HR, and your payroll, and your sales pipeline. And, so, those technologies first need to have really reliable actuals, before you can lean heavily into some of the other newer technologies, and more robust technologies. Adam:            That makes me think of how important it is to have good data. Because you don't want to have garbage in, then, it'll just be garbage out. So you have to really make sure your data is in a good spot. Dan:                You don't even want to start to forecast or implement those better tools until your historicals are accurate, for sure. And it's not just plain GAAP financials, it's also what your KPIs look like. What are the real drivers of your business? And that's one of the things we look at when we come into a new client, is really take the time to look at the true drivers of the business.  They may not be obvious at first, every company is a little bit different. What's driving their growth, and their revenue, and their cash flow. So we really lean into that. And, so, we'll often start with what we call an assessment phase. We'll spend 20 to 40 hours just really digging in deep, to understand every component of the business. Adam:            Do you think that all businesses would benefit from some a fractional executive coming in and relooking at things? A lot of times people bring in consultants to do that. But it's just like they look at everything, give you a PowerPoint, and head out the door. But that fractional seems to be like that person who partners with you for a period of time. Dan:                Yes, definitely, our model is based on long-term but part-time. So we're, generally, looking at companies in the SMB market. So, generally, we work with companies between 2 million and 100 million in revenue.  And, so, as that company scales, some companies are too quick to hire a full-time CFO. Where they might really just need a full-time controller, a really solid controller, and an accounting team. And, then, a fractional CFO for a couple of days a week, who's extremely well qualified and very experienced, could be a great fit for them. To bring in that true executive-level oversight, with decades of experience, to help them navigate, again, what those critical KPIs are. Where the holes are and the different strategies that are being considered and things like that.  So, yes, companies that are worth 75 or 100 million very likely to have a full-time CFO, a very qualified CFO. But companies under 75 million or depending upon the transaction complexity, and transaction volume, companies that are small and medium-sized businesses can really benefit from having a top-notch CFO on their team. But it may not need to be a 40-hour or 60-hour-a-week job. It can maybe be a 20-hour-a-week type of engagement. Adam:            So you get that full-time experience, that experienced person there. But you may not, necessarily, be able to afford the salary that would require to have that person on full-time. Dan:                Yes, and there may not be enough, truly strategic, CFO-level work for that person, that you need to have someone on a full-time basis. That's what our whole model is based on. As you grow and evolve, you get the resources you need on a fractional basis.  Our team is CFOs, and VPs of Finance, and controllers, accounting managers, financial analysts, senior accountants. So we've got a full stack of people with different levels of experience, who can come in and support a company during its growth phases, and you pay for what you need. As opposed to having a real heavy fixed cost on your G&A budget, G&A financials. Adam:            Yes, that seems like a really good benefit, especially, for the small to medium-sized businesses. Is it beneficial for a startup? If a startup is just getting going; as an entrepreneur, is it good to bring in fractional folks, or do you think full-time would be more beneficial? Dan:                Yes, fractional makes a lot of sense for an early-stage company. I look at as a step function. You start out maybe you just need a part-time accountant to make sure things are being coded properly. Once you have revenue and you're ready to raise around the capital, then, you probably want a strategic fractional CFO or VP of finance, who can help you with that capital fundraise, help you with a really robust financial model, and understanding what your KPIs and drivers are.  And, then, over time, you start to fill in some of those roles on a full-time basis, as you get a growth cycle. So it's not uncommon, maybe, you start with a fractional senior accountant and a little bit of oversight, from a fractional controller. And then that evolves into one or two full-time accountants and, then, a fractional CFO, and, then, eventually, you get a full-time controller, and it just builds as you go up the ladder in revenue, and fundraising. Adam:            So this does not have to do with fractional CFO. But I want to throw this question out there and you feel free to answer it or not. But do you think that the evolution of AI will help bridge the gap between US GAAP and IFRS, to make it a more international accounting standard? Dan:                I think it definitely has potential to. I think that there's logic in the way that things like RevRec and other things are being handled, between IFRS and US GAAP. So, I think, there's definitely some good potential there. Adam:            Yes, I don't know. Because I just feel like as we become a more global world and how we would do business and everything. It would make more sense to have a globally recognized accounting standard, so that everybody's doing the same, has the same standards that they live up to. Obviously different countries have different beliefs and stuff like that, but it would make sense for us to think globally. Dan:                Yes, I like that. I hadn't given that a lot of thought before, but that does make a lot of sense to me. Adam:            Mh-hmm, well, Dan, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great talking with you. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise with our audience. Dan:                My pleasure Adam. Really it was fun to meet you and fun to discuss these emerging technologies with you. < Outro > Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders, from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting in finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imainet.org.  

This was certainly an episode with a difference - we begin in a Natural History Museum packed with 4,000 taxidermy animals! The Woodland Trust site and museum now share space once owned by the famous Rothschild family who collected stuffed species, as well as live exotic animals that roamed the park. We tour Tring Park's fascinating historic features, from the avenue named after visitor Charles II to the huge stone monument rumoured to be for his famous mistress. Beneath autumn-coloured boughs, we also learn how young lime trees grown from the centuries-old lime avenue will continue the site's history, how cows help manage important chalk grassland and the vital role of veteran trees and deadwood in the healthy ecosystem. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Today I'm heading off to Tring Park, one of Hertfordshire's most important ecological areas. It's filled, I'm told, with wildflowers and some really interesting historic features, as well as some stunning views. But first but first, I was told to stop off at the Natural History Museum at Tring, which is really a very, very short walk from the woodland itself. I was told to do that because they said it might surprise you what you find. It definitely did that. Because here are rows and rows of what I'm told are historically important stuffed animals. So I'm at the the top bit of the the galleries here at the Natural History Museum at Tring and well, bonkers I think is a probably good word to describe this place and I mean, I feel very mixed about it. So we're, I'm passing some very weird fish, that's a louvar, never heard of that. But there's a a rhinoceros, white rhinoceros, a Sumatran rhinoceros. There's a dromedary, a camel. There is a rather small giraffe. There is a head of a giraffe. Coming round over here, there is an Indian swordfish from the Indian Ocean. Goodness gracious, it looks like something from Harry Potter. That's an eel, very scary looking eel. And then there is a giant armadillo and it really properly is giant, an extinct relative of the living armadillos, known from the Pleistocene era and that's the period of the Ice Age, from North and South America, that is absolutely extraordinary. And there are some very, very weird things around here. Anyway, that's certainly not something you'd expect to see in Tring. Goodness knows what the locals made of it back in the Victorian ages, of course this would have been their only experience of these kind of animals. No Internet, no television, so this really was an amazing insight into the world, beyond Britain, beyond Tring. There is something here, a deep sea anglerfish which looks like it's got coral out of its chin. I mean, it's properly something from a horror movie that is, that is extraordinary. Claire: My name is Claire Walsh and I'm the exhibitions and interpretation manager here at the Natural History Museum at Tring, and my job involves looking after all of the exhibitions that you see on display and any temporary exhibitions such as Wildlife Photographer of the Year. Adam: So this is a rather unusual place. I have only just had a very brief look and I've never seen anything quite like it. So just explain to our listeners what it is that we're seeing, what what is this place? Claire: So the Natural History Museum at Tring is the brainchild of Lionel Walter Rothschild, who was a member of the Rothschild banking dynasty. Walter Rothschild, as as we call him, was gifted the museum by his parents as a 21st birthday present. Adam: That's quite a birthday, who gets a museum for their 21st? That's quite something. Claire: Yes, yeah, so, so the family were a hugely wealthy family and Walter's parents owned Tring Park Mansion, which is the the the the big house next door to the museum, which is now a performing arts school, the land of which was formerly a a big deer park, and the Woodland Trust land and our museum is all part of that sort of estate. Adam: And so this is a Natural History Museum. But as I was saying, it's not like when I've seen normally. So explain to me what it is that differentiates this from other museums people might be acquainted with. Claire: So we have over 4,000 taxidermied animals on display from all over the world, some of the finest examples of Victorian taxidermy in the world and you can see everything on display from dressed fleas all the way through to wallabies, large deers, birds from all over the world. It really is an absolutely amazing place. Adam: I've never heard of the species called dressed fleas. Is that a species or is it fleas which have got frocks on? Claire: So these are fleas that have little outfits on so our our particular dressed fleas have little sombreros. They're from Mexico dressed fleas. We're very fortunate to have them on display and they're they are some of the most popular things in the museum. Adam: *laughs* Extraordinary. Yeah, I'll go stop and have a look at those. Now, but there was, am I right in saying that that Walter Rothschild in the sort of posh manor, actually had weird animals rolling around, these aren't just stuffed animals, you know, live weird animals, unusual animals, just part of the park? Claire: Yeah, so to take you back a little bit, Walter Rothschild first became really interested in natural history when he was about 7 and and he then decided to set up the museum. So throughout his teenage years, he started collecting different animals, living and dead. And the park at Tring was home to a lot of the animals so in in the park were lots and lots of living animals that he he kind of just kept there roaming free, so he had things like rheas, cassowaries, ostriches, emus, kangaroos. Adam: I, I've seen a picture, I think I've seen a picture of him in a sort of horse drawn carriage, except it's drawn by zebras. Claire: Yeah, so so he decided to train zebras to draw his carriage. So he started off with one zebra and then sort of moved on to having three zebras and a and a pony and he actually took the carriage along Regent Street all the way through the mall in London to Buckingham Palace where where the zebras met the Queen, which was a bit sort of worrying for Rothschild because actually zebras are really difficult to train and quite flighty sort of animals so he's a bit worried about the Queen petting his zebras and and something going wrong, but fortunately it was all fine. The zebras did come out to Tring when they retired as well, so they were also sort of roaming about. I think what you need to imagine is Tring at the time was a really kind of provincial country town, there was a lot farming going on and the Rothschilds came with this, massive amounts of wealth, but they really embedded themselves within the local community and and did lots of, you know, really helped people out. But Walter then started introducing all these animals into the park. He was really interested in adaptation of of different species of animals, so he actually rented out the island of Alhambra in the Seychelles to protect the giant tortoises, but also in Tring you have all of these different exotic animals from all around the world and I can't imagine what it must have been like to just be an ordinary agricultural labourer living in Tring and having the opportunity to walk through the park and just se all these amazing animals that you wouldn't have had the opportunity to see because there's no television. Adam: It's a really interesting back story to it, but I wonder what you feel about the purpose of the museum and this collection now, when there's a sense I already feel a bit uncomfortable going, is this quite right to be watching stuffed animals, is this in keeping with our modern sensibilities? What's your view on that? Claire: So our mission really is to educate people about biodiversity and to to ensure that our future generations become advocates for the planet. So we do this by, you know, trying to instil the importance and the wonder and beauty of nature within our collections and tell people about the things that are vanishing. We have lots of extinct and endangered animals on display, which we highlight to our visitors and and you know, to try and get them to understand that they need to look after the natural world today, and obviously our collections are incredibly scientifically important. We have researchers come from all over the world to visit Tring and to study their collections and you know, really make a difference to to our planet in terms of understanding how populations of animals have increased or decreased through time. You know, sort of engage with people and educate people so they look after the planet going forwards. Adam: And explain to me a little bit about your relationship or the museum's relationship with the Woodland Trust, then. Claire: So we have a really good relationship with the Woodland Trust. We work hand in hand with them, we share our our sort of knowledge between both of our organisations and advocate for, for you know, the good work that we both do. Adam: I'm going to have a quick look around before we go off to the to the woodland itself. What's your favourite animal here? What's the favourite thing you think you'd direct me to? Claire: Oh my goodness, you've put me on the spot there. I mean, I really love all the animals in the museum. I think the thylacine is really worth going to have a look at. Adam: OK, thylacine, never heard of it. Claire: So the thylacine is an extinct animal. It's an example of something called convergent evolution, where it looks very much like a dog, but it's actually a marsupial. It lived in Australia. So that's upstairs in gallery 5. Adam: OK, that's where I'll be heading next. Thank you very much. Well, having finished my tour inside the museum, I'm off, it really is just across the road, to the woodland itself to meet my guide for the day. Grace: My name is Grace Davis, I'm an assistant site manager at the Woodland Trust, I help to manage our woods in Hertfordshire and Essex. Adam: So we're very lucky. It was raining when I left home. It is not raining, so I don't want to tempt fate but I do want to offer my thanks to whatever power that be. Where are we? Why are we here? Grace: We're at Tring Park in Hertfordshire. It's just next to the town of Tring. It's 130 hectares of grassland and woodland. It's famous for its chalk grassland and has been designated a SSSI. Adam: Right. And we were just walking down an avenue really weren't we and you were telling me they're lime trees because I couldn't spot it, but I did have a quick look on my app and just, maybe everyone else knows this, but apparently the nickname for Brits is the limeys, I think Australians call us limeys and it was because the lime trees were made, were used to make ships. And I think the Australians thought they weren't great wood for trees and sort of nicknamed us limeys. Anyway, there's a little bit of a side note. We passed some cows, rather docile cows. What what are they doing here? Grace: We've got a a number of cows that graze here most of the year, so they really help us to manage the scrub on the chalk grassland. If nature had its way, the the grassland here would eventually convert to be woodland, which isn't a bad thing but because of the SSSI designation of the chalk grassland here, and because it's a very rare habitat internationally, we really need to manage the scrub and any trees from from taking over, so the cattle are here to browse, to keep the the growth in check of the hawthorn, the blackthorn, the the scrubby species that really want to take over. Adam: And we passed, just a bit of practical information with people, we passed a little area where I saw a lot of tree planting going on, but also that's going to be a new car park is that right? Grace: That's right. So we've actually got Tring Park itself on a 400-year lease from the council after it was threatened in the nineties to be turned into a golf course, but we've also invested in this site by converting a patch of land to a car park for 50 spaces, and we hope that that car park will be open soon, very soon, and the one of the real benefits of it is it will provide a level access into the into the grassland, whereas at the moment people generally have to walk over the bridge across the very busy A41 but with the new car park, people will be able to park and walk straight into the grassland. So it will be great for anyone with a pushchair or mobility scooter. Adam: Fantastic. Now we're we're on a bit of a hill on this path going towards, past the cows on my right, going towards the trees themselves Right just before we head off there here's a Woodland Trust little bit of signage which I don't quite understand, it's a wooden post with a foot cut out of it. It is Walter's Wander. Walter moved into rooms at Magdalene College with a flock of kiwis, which were soon rehoused and cared for by a local taxidermist. Yeah, I'm not sure a taxidermist cares for animals much. I'm sure he cares, or she cares about her work, but I'm not sure that's the the verb of the job of a taxidermist. Anyway, yeah, so this is Walter's Wander, and it is Walter Rothschild. Grace: That's right yeah so this is this is showing a link between Tring Park and the museum of which Walter Rothschild is famous for having his his taxidermy there. Adam: I mean, he proper barmy. He, Magdalene College, he was a student at university and he brought with him a flock of kiwis. I mean, my kids went to university, they weren't allowed to have a kettle in their room, let alone a flock of kiwis. Better times, eh, let's bring those back! Right off we go. Let's go. This is this is, look, I'll get this wrong, is this hawthorn on the left? Grace: This is hawthorn, yes. Adam: Ohh top marks for Adam *laughs* Top marks for Adam, OK. Grace: We've got dog rose on the right, hawthorn again. Adam: Oh you see, you're you're showing off, just cause I got one right, you've gotta get more right than me. *both laugh* OK, off we go. Grace: So some of the plants that we have here growing on the chalk grassland have got fantastic names such as fairy flax, birdsfoot trefoil, lady's bedstraw, salad burnet and you know they've all got different colours, so white, yellows, purple. So if you visit here in spring or summer, there's just beautiful shades of colour all around the park. Adam: They're wildflowers are they? Grace: Yes, that's right and they're they they they they're specialist to chalk grassland. In fact, up to 40 species of chalk grassland plants can grow in one square metre, which is quite astonishing. Adam: I was taken by lady's bedstraw. Did ladies use it for their beds? Grace: I believe it was dried and used in mattresses. Adam: Blimey. Not just for ladies, gentlemen too, presumably. Grace: *laughs* Maybe Adam: Who knows, maybe it was only for ladies. Let's do some research. OK. So we're heading uphill as you can probably hear from my laboured breathing to a wooden gate up there and that that leads us into a more densely wooded area does it? Grace: Yes, that's right so that's the mature woodland up there. And we'll be we'll be leading on to the King Charles Ride, which is quite interesting for its connection with King Charles II. Adam: So what tell me whilst we're walking up, you can talk which will mean people can't hear me panting. Tell tell me about King Charles Ride. Grace: So Tring actually used to belong to King Charles II's wife. Catherine of Braganza, I think was her name. So King Charles is known to have visited the area and the avenue was named after him, and it's also heavily rumoured that his famous mistress Nell Gwynn came here with him on certain visits. She may well have lived in Tring during a typhus outbreak in London. There's also a monument here that is rumoured to be dedicated to her, which would make it the only public monument in the country to be dedicated to a royal mistress. Adam: Wow, good knowledge. Grace: I've got my notes *laughs* Adam: If only this comes up in Trivial Pursuit. I go where's the only monument to a royal mistress? And I'll get, I'll astound people at dinner parties. Good stuff. So we're taking a little break and I've turned around and actually it's it's beautiful looking back, we're up at the top of a a small valley we can see a road ahead of us that will be the A something, A41 says my expert and the sun is cutting through greyish clouds hitting the fields, green fields and the hills beyond the A41. And it looks really pretty. I mean, it's an interesting point, isn't it, that that people, the clue's in the name, the Woodland Trust, people feel it's about, get as many trees in the ground as possible. But it's not quite like that is it, because here in this particular patch you're doing what you can to prevent trees growing? Grace: That's right. I mean, scrub, scrub and woodland are obviously fantastic habitats for a range of species. But but chalk grassland really needs a low, low, low sward so a short height of the, Adam: Low sward, what's sward? Grace: Sward is the height of the the grass and the plants. So you can see it's quite low because the cattle are browsing it. So we need to keep that low. And the cattle will browse, they will eat like the young hawthorn and blackthorn and things coming through. They won't touch, really the the bigger, more established patches. But they'll keep the young stuff from coming through, and they'll reduce the competition of more dominant weeds like dandelion and things from from coming through. They they grow very fast and they will shade out and outcompete the slower growing rare chalk grassland species. Adam: And I mean, as we're sitting here and it's sort of mid-October-ish. We're starting to see the trees change colour aren't they, you can see in the lower bits they're not this uniform green. We've got reds and yellows and coppers just coming out. It is this time of change in the year, isn't it? Grace: That's right, yeah, it's quite beautiful, actually, at this time of year. Although we're saying we don't have the colours of the of the chalk grassland plants at the moment, but we do have the lovely changing colours of the trees. Yeah so this area here was enclosed about 300 years ago by by fencing, presumably, which which meant that a lot of the habitat was kept intact. It wasn't developed on and it's preserved the historic landscape as well of the area, and in fact it's, Tring Park is a Grade II historic parkland because of the ornamental park and garden features, which we'll we'll we'll see some of as we get to the top. Adam: Lovely. Have we rested enough? Grace: Yeah, let's push on. Adam: Push on. Grace: It will be muddy this next bit, but it's not for very long. Adam: OK. Ohh you can, you might be able to hear the sound effects of this getting very muddy. Grace: Yes, claggy. Adam: We've come into well, we're on a path, a little clearing and there is a mighty, mighty tree. But it's it's certainly dead. But it looks like something from a Harry Potter movie, The Witches or Macbeth, something like that. What's the story there? Grace: Well that's a tree perhaps it was struck by lightning, or it's just decayed you know, with old age. That's what we would call a veteran tree. So it's got wonderful cavity at the base there, it's got fungi growing on it. It's got the the top is all split off. It's open, open at the top for birds to nest in. You know, we we really do like to keep as much deadwood on a site as possible. It's just fantastic for invertebrates, bugs, beetles, fungi. There's about 2,000 invertebrate species that are reliant on dead or decaying woods, so you know, we're really working at the at the base of the ecosystem to get those small creatures into the woodland ecosystem for, you know, birds, mammals to to then eat and forming the wonderful woodland ecology that we that we need. Adam: So it it's not a good idea to clear away these things and make everything look neat. It's actually it's part of the ecosystem. There's it's funny cause you can't see anything that you know, there's no leaves on it or anything, but you're saying there's lots of animals actually dependent on that dead wood. Grace: That's right. Yeah. Really, it's really. That's right. If we had a closer look, we'd see all sorts of small bugs and beetles and crawly, creepy, crawly things. There may well be bats that roost in there, birds that nest in there, probably fungi around the base and at the cavities. Adam: Right. And that's supporting other animals who need to eat on that and and the soil itself obviously, which is increasingly a big issue, isn't it? Grace: That's right. Yeah, of course, well that, that, that tree will eventually decay into the soil and the soil health of woodland is really really important. Adam: Yeah, I mean, that's an increasingly big issue for people, isn't it? We don't we don't think about much about the soil, we look above the soil, but the soil health is a huge concern and and increasing issue for people to maintain, isn't it? Grace: That's right. I mean, the trees will come and go over hundreds of years but the soil will remain, and it's got those nutrients that have built up for hundreds and hundreds of years, especially in an ancient woodland, so it it's really the soil that is the most important thing in an ancient woodland. Adam: And remind me this is something I definitely should know but, is is there a definition of ancient woodland? Is there a cut off period? Grace: Yeah, it's trees that date back to the the 1600s, which is really when records began of mapping out the country and what the land uses were. Adam: Right, OK. And we're just going up, here are two or three felled trees. We've gotta turn right here have we? Grace: That's right yeah. Adam: They look like they've been cut down just left or no, they're very black. Is that fire or something? Grace: I think that's just water from the, from the rain, because that tree there is very dark isn't it. Adam: Right, oh yeah, that's dark. So we've come up to the top of the hill, or is there much, is there another hill? Grace: No, no, no, no more hills. Maybe just gently undulating, but no more hills. Adam: OK, right. So we're at the top of the hill. But I see a regal path ahead. I can imagine myself in my zebra drawn carriage riding down here, waving, if not at my people, then at my trees. So is this all in my imagination or is this is this the King Charles road? Grace: I'm not sure if the zebras made it up here, but this is known as the King Charles Ride, named after Charles II, we're also on the Ridgeway Trail, which is Britain's oldest road. Adam: Sorry, this this road I'm standing on now? Grace: That's right yeah, this, this, this stretch is part of an 87-mile national trail that stretches from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire. It would have been used by drovers, traders, soldiers for at least 5,000 years. Adam: Gosh, that's extraordinary. Grace: So if if if, if, if one is so inclined, you can walk from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire, or do it in reverse, taking in wonderful views, and you know, walking in vhy many hundreds of years of ancestors' footprints. Adam: Yeah. And and how many times have you done that walk then? Grace: *laughs* Zero. But I would like to do it one day. Adam: One day. OK. Well, you could do it in bits. I'll do I'll do the first kilometre with you. Grace: Lots of people do do it in bits. They park up, they walk a stretch and they get somebody to pick them up at the other end and take them back to their car. But actually I was I was on site here in the summer and I heard some like tinkling bells and looked up and it was two guys with huge backpacks and they were walking from the start of the Ridgeway Trail all the way to the Avebury standing stones in Wiltshire for the summer solstice. Adam: Blimey. How long would that, do you know how long that would have taken them? Grace: I don't know actually. Maybe a couple of weeks. Adam: Wow. And they had tinkling bells. I think you just sort of threw that in, which I think is that might get on my nerves with two weeks of walking with someone with a tinkling bell. Any idea why they were, were they just magical folk? Grace: They looked a little bit magical, but also I think it was day one so they might have ditched the tinkling bells after day one. Adam: Well, and actually we should, that's extraordinary, but I want to stop here because there's another felled tree and you were talking about the importance of actually decaying wood and even to the semi untrained eye like mine, we've got a tree trunk lying on its side and the roots of a tree still embedded covered in moss, but also fungi all over the place here. I mean, this is it's not a dead bit of wood at all really is it, it's hosting a huge amount of life. Grace: Yeah, it's absolutely living. Numerous fungi, species and bracket fungi here on the side. Smaller, smaller ones down there, you can see like the holes where beetles and different invertebrates are getting into the deadwood, what what, which is getting softer and softer over time. Ahhuge cavity over there, which could be used for all sorts of species. Adam: Looks like an elephant's foot at the bottom, doesn't it? Really does, amazing. Amazing that. Ah, OK. Back to the path. And we are, I mean, look, it's actually quite nice weather at a time of year where the weather isn't going to stay with us much and we are the only people. And I can see all the way down the King Charles Avenue and yes, just us, just us. All right, now we've had to stop because you got very excited about something you said ‘Stop!'. So why? Grace: That's right yeah so these are young lime trees that have originally come from the veteran lime trees we saw at the avenue at the start of our walk. So we've we've propagated, we've taken the seed from those veteran limes and we've grown them on into these young lime trees which we've planted up here because those those lime trees on the lime avenue they're not gonna live forever. They've hopefully got many hundreds of years left, but we want to continue their historic link to the site so this is seed from those very trees that we've planted up here on the King Charles Ride. Adam: And since, I mean, lime is obviously there's a lot of lime trees we've already been talking about that here. Just give me a as part of our online tree identity course, how do you spot a lime? Grace: So you you can tell a lime generally from the quite heart shape of its leaf, and they do also have quite quite unique looking seed pods as well. Adam: They've got little things on them. They flutter around to help them fly, like I always think of them as mini helicopters but anyway. OK, great. Grace: There's a word for those things I can't think what they're called. Adam: Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll call them mini helicopters and see if it catches on. Grace: Yeah, yeah, yeah *laughs* Adam: Yes, it's getting spookily dark under the canopy here, so these are clearly not lime trees. What sort of trees are these? Grace: We've got a lot of mature yew trees here which are causing quite a bit of shade at the moment across the ride. Adam: Yeah. So you showed you showed me how to spot a lime. How do you know these are yew trees? Grace: So yews have got these needle-like leaves a little bit like a Christmas tree sort of leaf. But but needles and they also have usually very sort of gnarly, flaky bark and red berries. Hopefully we'll see some, that would be quite fun, they're quite a quite an interesting shape. Adam: And yew trees are some of the oldest living trees, aren't they? Grace: They can live a very long time, yes. Adam: I thought, is it, I might be getting confused but I thought is it yew trees that often get planted in graveyards. Grace: Yeah, that's right. Yes. Adam: And I think, I mean, who knows? I think I've heard examples, you know in the thousand, 1,000 year old or or even more which is properly ancient. Grace: Yes. I believe they were there before the graveyards, Adam: Ohh I see it was the other way round. Grace: Yeah, that's what I've read because the yews were connected to Paganism and the, the, the, the, I believe the churchyards were built on these sort of sacred or spiritual sites where the trees were already in place. Adam: Right. Yes, must have something to do with rebirth or longevity of, you know, I'm I'm sure I've heard of a yew tree being 2,000 years old, so you're thinking, God you know, there's a yew tree from the age of Jesus Christ which really think, makes you ponder doesn't it, but that's I didn't realise you thought it was the other way around, I thought they planted yew trees in graveyards rather than they built graveyards around yew trees, but it makes more sense in some ways. So we're taking a little path to the left. I say little it's also rather grand, to be honest. But I know why I'm being taken down here cause at the end I can see a stone monument of some description. So I'll see what it is when I get there and you can hear the time of year, the leaves are falling, you might be able to hear that rustle. So this is an unexpected find, we come into another clearing and there is a huge stone monument. Grace, what on earth, what is this? Grace: This is the obelisk. It's a it's one of two Scheduled Ancient Monuments here, we'll see the other one shortly. It was built in in the early 18th century, so it's contemporary with the the the start of the parkland here. And probably designed by the architect James Gibbs. And it's said to be dedicated to Nell Gwynn. Adam: I mean, there's nothing on it, when you said you were taking me to see something dedicated to Nell Gwynn, you'd think they'd have a blooming statue of Nell Gwynn. It's, I mean, but it is huge and it's got a a round bauble at the top, I'm just going round it to see if there's any markings on the base, which there isn't. So maybe maybe this was a sort of you know, I'm going to publicly recognise you with this enormous monument, but because you're not the queen, I can't put your name on it. Amazing. Oh, my goodness, I'm turning around and there's another stunning thing at the end of this pathway, it's just full of surprises. So this looks like a Palladian villa at the end of this pathway, so is this also to Nell Gwyn but says nothing about her on it? Grace: No, I no, I don't think so. This is the summer house. The other Scheduled Ancient Monument here, again designed by the same architect. Well, we'll see when we get there, but it it looks certainly very impressive from the front, but we'll see more up close what lies behind. Adam: Ohh, you see, you're teasing me now *both laugh* Why she goes ohh what's, what does lie behind that villa? Alright. Let's go find out. You said go go at the back. There's something. It looks like it's very crowded at the back. Let's have a look. Ohh, there's nothing to it. There isn't a back. It's just a facade. Grace: That's right. The facade is all that remains now. Adam: There, there, there was more to it was there? Grace: There was more. It was it was an actual building, it was lived in by a gamekeeper and and his son in the 19th century. Adam: What a house for a gamekeeper. It's fit for a king. That's extraordinary. Grace: But it was demolished to make way for the Wiggington Road, which you might be able to hear in the background. Adam: Oh, how disappointing. Nonetheless a very nice pied-a-terre. Grace: It looks like an ancient temple from the front. Adam: It does. I just need a bit, you know, 4 foot at the back, I'll move in. Very nice. Now this has properly been a real treat, but modern life is intervening not only in the shape of the cars you might hear in background, but I have a Teams call with some TV producers I have to meet in about half an hour and they will be not and they will not be amused if I say I'm lost in a wood. So modern life as ever drags you back, what's the way home Grace? Grace: I'll I'll I'll walk you back, don't worry. Adam: Thank you, thank you, you're not going to just leave me to follow a trail of breadcrumbs back to the car. Well, that was quite a trip. If you want to visit Tring Park, it is on the A41, 30 miles North West of London and if you go to the Woodland Trust website, type in Tring Park, you'll find lots of other ways of getting there by bus, by train, on foot, by bicycle and even the What 3 Words location to use as well. And if you want to find a wood nearer you than Tring Park, well type into your search engine of choice Woodland Trust find a wood and you'll find one near you. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Sheltering from the rain under a yew tree in a Shrewsbury churchyard, we chat to 'Tree Pilgrim' Martin Hügi, the Trust's outreach manager in the South East. He's taken a four-month sabbatical to walk from Land's End to John O'Groats and visit thousands of incredible trees along the way. Hear Martin on awe-inspiring trees that have rendered him speechless, the vital Ancient Tree Inventory that helped plan the route, the value of ‘plugging in' to nature and what's in his kit bag! We also hear from Adele, who explains that old trees like those on Martin's pilgrimage are not protected or prioritised like our built heritage. Find out what you can do to help. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Today I am off to meet the Tree Pilgrim, which is the moniker of Martin Hugi, who is doing a proper marathon pilgrimage from Land's End to John O'Groats using the Woodland Trust's Ancient Tree Inventory, so you're gonna visit a huge number of ancient and veteran trees, something like 6,500 of them he's expecting along his walk and I caught up with him in Shrewsbury in Shropshire, which is just on the River Severn about 150 miles or thereabouts, north, north west of London, and I caught up with him at a rather rainy churchyard. This is very unusual because normally I join people on walks, but actually you've been walking for what, what day is it?  Martin: I'm on day... 79 today   Adam: You had to think about that!  Martin: I had to think about that.  Adam: Yeah. So this is so you've actually taken a break and you've come into Shrewsbury and we're, we're we are in a green space in a churchyard where, now we're we're here for a special reason. Why?  Martin: So last night I was giving a talk, talking about ancient trees and the the need for greater protection and just telling my story of what I've been up to.  Adam: Right, well, first of all tell me a bit about this pilgrimage you're going on.  Martin: Yeah. So I'm calling it an ancient tree pilgrimage and it is a walk from Land's End to John O'Groats and I spent 12 months planning meticulously a route between some of the most amazing trees that I could fit into a north-south route and working out the detail of how I wassgoing to get to those trees via other trees on the Ancient Tree Inventory.  Adam: So the Land's End to John O'Groats, which that walk, famous sort of trip which is called LEGO for short, is it?  Martin: LEJOG, or JOGLE if you go the other way.  Adam: LEJOG, right OK, LEJOG.  Martin: Land's End to John O'Groats.  Adam: OK. It's long if you do it straight, but you've gone, gone a sort of wiggly woggly way, haven't you? Because you're going actually via interesting trees. So how many miles is that gonna be?  Martin: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, it's if you're going to go a sort of more classic route, it would be something like 1,080 or 1,100 sort of miles. The route that I've planned is 2,077 miles.  Adam: Wow.  Martin: So it's double.  Adam: 2,077 mile walk.  Martin: Yeah, I had estimated doing 18 miles a day. That would be, that was my average. I'd sort of planned rough stops where I thought I might be able to get to. I'm more doing about 13 miles a day, which is not a lot less, but it's, I'm spending more time with the trees. And I, we also we lost our our dog on the day that I was setting off. We went down to Penzance to start and we took our our old family dog with us and he was very old and and elderly and he actually died on the morning that I was going to set off. So we just drove back home and didn't fancy starting again for another couple of weeks. So if you can be behind on a pilgrimage, I was already 2 weeks behind, but actually, I'm on a pilgrimage, so it's it's it's about the journey.   Adam: Would you say you're a religious person?  Martin: Not in the classic sense of an organised religion, but I, I do have a spiritual side to me for sure. Yeah.   Adam: And what difference then, you you talk about this tree pilgrimage and it not being about the distance, it's about the journey, which, you know, one often hears. What, if anything, have you learnt about your feelings for the natural world, or what you think it can offer you, or what you can offer it during this journey so far?  Martin: Yeah, I think I'm learning about my connection with nature and ancient trees and the sites that they sit in as being good places to access that connection. So one of the stories that I tell is about meeting the Majesty Oak in Fredville Park in Kent. And we went with a conservation trip with work and it's just such an incredible tree at it's 12.5 metre girth and a maiden oak. And it just goes straight up and it's just it's, it's, it's bulk, it's sheer dominance and size literally blew my mind to the point where I was speechless for a couple of minutes and I wasn't the only one, and because I think it it just it takes you out of the ordinary state of ‘this is what a tree is' and it put me into a state of, this is something different, and it was a a real feeling of awe and I get that from ancient trees, I sometimes I will feel awe and that's a a rare feeling in my life and potentially a lot of people's lives. And I think that's well, that's what I'm seeking, I suppose, but it's almost like a gateway feeling for other potential feelings that you can cultivate around nature and trees. Just things like respect and gratitude, and I've actually found myself thanking some of the trees because of, they're just full, so full of life and and they're persisting and the resilience and feeling actual gratitude that they persist and doing what they do.  Adam: And you must meet a lot of people on your walk. 70 odd days in so far, they must ask you what on Earth you're doing and must give you some sort of response. What, have people been surprised, shocked, do they think you're nuts? Do they go ‘can I join you'? What's been the response?  Martin: All of those things, I suppose. Yeah, I'll, I'll sort of tell them what I'm doing and and as soon as I get to Ancient Tree Inventory, I get a blank look.   Adam: OK. Well, you say lots of people don't know about this, let's talk about this. First of all, what is it, and then how do people get involved?  Martin: Yes. So it is a citizen science project, it's an open publicly accessible data set of ancient trees across the UK.  Adam: And so I could, I mean, for instance, today if we think we found this ancient tree, we would go on the register and go, here it is, we think it's a, you know, a an ancient oak or what whatever it is and we measure its girth, its its width at about do you do it about 3 metres high? Is that what you meant to do?  Martin: It's 1.5 metres.  Adam: So only twice wrong *laughs* there we are, well a good margin of error. Yeah, 3 metres is too high. No, I'm short as it is, overblown idea of how tall I am. So 1.5 metres high you sort of take a tape measure and you measure it and you say you you think you you know what it is, you give it a good go and there's lots of online apps you can help you. And you sort of make comments about the tree. You sort of say it's in this sort of condition, but you don't have to be an expert, it is just fine to give it give it a go.   Martin: Absolutely and and actually you don't need a tape measure, you can you can make an estimate and if you don't know what the tree is exactly or don't know what it is at all, you can still add it to the inventory and it will, it won't appear as a public facing record at that point, but it will show up to an ancient tree verifier, a volunteer ancient tree verifier. It will show up as an unverified tree and and I I am an ancient tree verifier, since 2008, and I'll be able to see that there's an unverified tree here and I can go along, I can say, well, it is an oak and I can measure it if I can measure it, if it's possible. And I can record other details about the tree like its veteran characteristics.  Adam: So already, I mean I don't get too bogged down into all of this, but I get notable trees like an event has happened under them, and there's lots of amazing trees where the Magna Carta was signed under one the Tolpuddle Martyr, the first ever union was created under a tree, so there's lots of historically important trees like that. But the the difference between veteran and ancient, is there a clear distinction between those?  Martin: No, in a way it's a subjective thing, but there is guidelines. There are, for different species, there are graphs saying if it's over this sort of girth you you would, it would be erring into an ancient tree. And and different species and different growth rates so there'll be different sizes. My, so a sort of colloquial definition is it's a tree that makes you go wow, would be an ancient tree and be that awe inspiring sort of feeling. But then also an ancient tree is one where you can see that it's been through multiple stages of growth, and what you'd say as a development phase for a tree, so an oak tree for example, you'd be able to see that it's it's, it's gone up and it's done it's mature oak, it's lost limbs and then it's shrunk back down again and then it's gone back up again and then it's come back down again and it's gone back up again and you can see that history in the shape and form of an ancient tree. So an ancient tree is a veteran tree. It's just that it's been a veteran multiple times and it's gone through them.  Adam: And presumably it's different for different species, because I mean, we're looking at a couple of yews, I mean, a yew tree can last 2,000 years. So what might be old for a yew tree is very different, might be old for a cherry tree, for instance. So you you can't apply the same rule for all trees, presumably.  Martin: You can apply that same thinking and principle to all trees that, has it been through multiple stages of life and development. Yew trees for sure are some of the oldest living trees. Something that's really stood out to me in Powys, in Wales and, is how they will put roots down into the inside of their decaying stems. Roots go down, they're called adventitious roots, and it's literally feeding off of the decaying body of itself and then those adventitious roots become stems, and I've seen this over and over, and again in some of the oldest yews that, the internal stems are adventitious roots and the outside of the tree is decayed and and hollow and and so in theory a yew tree is potentially immortal. You know, they just go on and on because you you can see some of these big stems that will have adventitious roots inside them, but that big stem might have been an adventitious route originally, so they're just incredible trees and and all trees will do that.  Adam: And so why is it important that this thing exists? I mean, why why make a register of ancient trees, apart from the fact you might want like quite like an excuse to go around the country listing them, which I I get that might be fun, but why is it important?  Martin: I think there are, there's there's several reasons, really. I mean, apart from, I mean a simple one would be cultural and social history and the heritage as part of our our common collective heritage. But then there's also from a some more sort of biological view, they are old genetics, they're old genes that have persisted, so they're adapted to their conditions, who knows how many offspring they've generated and the genetics that that tree came from, you know, going back into millennia, so I think they're an important reserve of genetic history. They're also nodes of undisturbed soils, so they obviously clearly have been there such a long time that the roots and the mycorrhizal associations under the ground and the complexity of life that is in that area, it's like a node of of life and of part of our landscape that hasn't changed and that is an incredibly important place, akin to ancient woodland soils.  Adam: And the whole the whole idea about ancient woodland itself is that you can't replace tree for tree, you can't knock down an ancient tree and and put in a new tree and it be as environmentally beneficial, so it's surely it's important because if we know about how to modify our landscape, if we're, whether where we should build new homes or or or anything, then actually it's important to know what we're disturbing, you can only do that if you know what's there.  Martin: Absolutely, yeah and I mean *church bells ring* sorry that's just distracted me *laughs*.  Adam: That's fine, distracted, distracted, slightly by the the ominous bells of the church in whose yard we are sitting in at the moment. So, you know, we're we're under a beech, you might hear the rain. We're cowering from sort of fairly light rain and in this churchyard and just listening to those those bells, anyway, they've they've gone, they've gone so.  Martin: It's where Charles Darwin was baptised.  Adam: In this church? Charles Darwin? Well, that, that raises a really interesting point, because also I know the local community were trying to protect an oak. And they called it the Charles Darwin Oak. You know, it's always good to have a name, isn't it? And they called it that because they think, well, you know, Charles Darwin could legitimately have played under this oak. It's old enough, and it's where he was baptised and everything. And it raises this issue, doesn't it, about people's connections to trees and local communities' connections to trees and it, I mean, I, from, as an outsider, it feels that that is becoming more a thing more a thing that people talk about, just regular people do feel it's important to have this connection.  Martin: I I think it's it's it really is yeah. I think people are now realising much more how the trees and the ecosystems around them actually provide us with the atmosphere and the our ability to live on this planet. It really is such a fundamental part of being human and survival to look after these green spaces that it's it's, you know, people are, people do realise that I think people do recognise that.  Adam: It it brings us on to the debate about the environment and protection. It was interesting, on the way here, I was reading an article by Jonathan Friedland, the great writer, who was talking about the ecological debate, saying they've said the the ecological sort of lobby group have the argument right, but they're using the wrong words and and he was saying that you know that that their argument isn't framed in the right way, but it feels like this is a super important moment, maybe a flex point, one doesn't want to overemphasise these things, sort of, but does feel that, I mean, right this week we are seeing heatwaves, I mean sort of properly dangerous heatwaves in southern Europe. Flooding, there was flooding on the motorway as I came here, so we have extremes of weather which feel very unusual for this sort of early summery type period. How worried are you about the environment and our ability to actually do something to protect it and our place in it?  Martin: I am confident that we have the know-how and the ability as humans to change our ways to a more sustainable way of living in harmony. I think that is changing. I think the economics has got to be part of this debate and the conversation, I I read a fantastic book in 2008 by Eric Beinhocker, The Origin of Wealth. I don't know if you've heard of this and looking at the environment as complex adaptive systems, but he was also saying how the economy is a complex adaptive system and evolution of economy, evolution is a, you you can't predict a thing what's going to happen sometimes and  Adam: No, I understand. And that's interesting to the, that the economy is itself an ecology and it adapts to the environment that it's facing. And I agree, I used to do a series for the BBC called Horizons when we travelled the world looking at technology. And I tend to the panicky, I have to say, and I thought this wouldn't be good for me when I'm looking at big challenges facing the world. And actually, I was really drawn to the fact that there are tech solutions to all sorts of issues, and it's often the money that's preventing, you go, ‘we can fix it, it's just not commercially viable'. No one wants to pay to do this at the moment, but if oil prices went through the roof, suddenly this alternative would be commercially viable. So it was, we talk a lot about technology, sometimes it is the economics of it which are preventing us from doing things and the economics change, don't they? So that that might be.  Martin: They do and it's something that is not predictable because there's so many moving components, there's so many interactions, there's so many feedback loops that, I mean, that's something that intrigues me about complex systems is that, the more complexity you have, the more feedback loops, the more agents that are interacting with each other in a system, the more resilient it is to change, but it can shift if if you if you get some events that are just too too much or you you degrade the amount of complexity then that system becomes less stable and that's the, that's the danger with, potentially what we're doing with trees and our environment, our, if you like a tree is an emergent property of the soil, it's it's an expression of of of what, of plant life and it's it started as algae coming out of warm freshwater, sea, freshwater in, 600 million years ago and and partnering with fungi to make, to have lichens. And then you get soil and then other things, other more complex plants evolve and then we've ended up with trees and they're like the, an emergent property of complex systems of the soil.  Adam: So we're talking about people's interaction with the environment. I should explain some of the symphony of sound we're hearing. So we we had the church bells, we had the rain above us. And I think there is a charity Race for Life with, thousands of people have emerged, in in a bit of green land we were going to actually walk through. And I think there's a sort of charity run going on, which is why you might hear, some big blaring music in the background, which is not as quiet a spot as we thought we might have ended up with, but does show the amenity value of these open green spaces. It's just rather a lot of people have chosen to use it on, on this particular day. One of the other things I just want to talk to you about as well while we're talking about this debate, and I know you talk on on behalf of yourself, not the Trust, and you're taking a sabbatical so these are your views, but given the debate we're all having, it feels to me that we talk a lot about armageddon. And I know from talking to people, you know, my family, they they sort of just disengage with after a while it just becomes background noise. And I wonder if you have an idea or an insight into how to talk about these issues to explain that they are potentially the difference between humans surviving and not surviving and yet not just sound like, some crazy guy screaming into the wind and also to stop people going ‘well, if that's the way it is then you know what am I gonna do I, I just better carry on because I can't do anything about it'. Is there a key that we're missing you feel, or an emphasis that we have wrong in engaging with this topic?  Martin: I don't know if I would say I have an answer to whether it's wrong or not, or the way we engage with it, but I think for me the the key is connection to nature and encouraging people and you've got to start young, I think, getting children through forest school perhaps, getting them out outside and experiencing nature because that's where nature connection comes from. And you don't need a, you don't need an ancient tree to to give you a sense of awe. I mean you I I can and ppeople can find awe in a tiny flower, but it's just a case of looking and spending time plugging in if you like.  Adam: You're right. I mean, I'm not sure I'd quite describe it as awe, but I often have in my car like a a little bit of a berry or an acorn and and you know, sometimes, it's going to sound weird now I'm describing it *laughs* but if I'm in a traffic jam or something and I look at those things and go actually, do you know what, if that was a piece of jewellery that was designed almost identical, we'd pay a lot of money for it and we'd go, ‘isn't that beautiful?' And you'd hang it around your neck in a way that you probably wouldn't hang an acorn around your neck or most people wouldn't. And yet you look at it and you go, it's quite extraordinary when you take time to look at these things a leaf or something, and I don't want to sound, you know, too Mother Earthy about it and people to, turn people off about that. But taking the time just to look, sometimes, you go, the wonder is in the detail. It is there actually it's quite fun and it's free.  Martin: Yeah and and I think when we when we go into a potentially, you know an undisturbed habitat like an ancient woodland where there is complexity and and you you immerse yourself in those areas, that's that's where you you you you can see, you can feel life.  Adam: Let me take you back to your walk, because, from which I have dragged you. A hundred odd days planned on the road, carrying all your own stuff. That means you have to find a place to sleep. Wash every now and then. I mean you you smell beautiful so I'm I'm assuming you've found some magic trick or you are washing and carrying clothes. What, just what is the trick for doing that? Because sometimes I go away for the weekend and I feel I'm already carrying far too much. How are you doing a hundred odd day walk carrying everything. What's the trick, what's your sort of kit list?  Martin: Yeah, I I did spend about two years actually building up different kits and trying different things to be as lightweight as possible. But that's in a way that, the whole having to find somewhere to camp, having to find water, these are basic simple things that take you away from all the other stuff that is going on you know, in my life sort of thing so I can actually immerse myself into the flow of of that journey.  Adam: So, but just because you, look, you're wearing a lightweight top, it's it's raining. No coat at the moment, I mean, but sort of how much clothes are you taking? And you know, yeah, how many, how, how many shirts? How many socks? How many pairs of pants? I've never asked this of another man before *laughs* How many pairs of pants do you have?   Martin: Right. Well, I can answer that *laughs* I have five pairs of pants, five pairs of socks, three pairs, three shirts, three T-shirts and just one top that I'm wearing now, a rainjacket and some waterproof trousers and some walking trousers and a pair of shorts. That is actually my clothing list. The the socks, the pants and the T-shirts are all merino wool essentially so they're very lightweight, they're very thin, very lightweight. Don't, merino wool or wool doesn't pick up smells and odours readily. The socks have got silver woven into them, so they're antifungal, antibacterial, and they're pretty amazing socks, actually. And they they dry as well. So the T-shirts are very thin merino wool T-shirts. I can wash them and they'll be dry in a few hours, especially with the hot weather that I was having in May and June.  Adam: Not, not the rain, nothing's gonna dry in this rain, although this tree is providing some amazing cover for us. So look, you've come into Shrewsbury to to to meet me to have a look at this ancient tree, which I I might leave you to measure yourself given the the increasing amount of rain that is pouring down on us. And I stupidly did not bring a coat because I just thought it was such nice weather when I left. Anyway, what is, when I leave you, where are you off to? Where is the next sort of part of this walk taking you?  Martin: Well, I am, will be taken back to my tent, which I've left at a campsite in, near Brecon and and then I am heading north to some yew trees and then to, up to Welshpool and Oswestry and then across into, towards in between Liverpool and Manchester and then north, Cumbria, Scotland. We'll see how, how, how far we get.  Adam: I know you thought the first bit of the trip you've you've not been on pace to actually complete it, but you never know, it, you might pick up, it might might get easier going.  Martin: I've actually slowed down and I thought I would speed up as I went along and as I got fitter and stronger I thought I would speed up but actually I've started to slow down and go at the pace, at a pace that my body wants to go at as well as the time and mental space that I wanted to to have from this trip. Yeah.  Adam: That's the difference in us. You're you're going to go off and measure a tree, and I'm going to find a coffee *laughs* some, somewhere dry. Look, best of luck, an amazing journey. Thank you very much. Thank you. And if you've been inspired by Martin's journey and want to help protect veteran and ancient trees but don't want to take a marathon walk the length of the country, there is still something you can do from the comfort of your armchair.  Adele: So, I'm Adele Benson, I'm a campaigner at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So what can people do to actually help?  Adele: We're running currently the Living Legends campaign to secure better legal protection for our oldest and most special trees. Because ultimately we are seeing some of our oldest trees with, you know, immense ecological wildlife and historic value being felled, or the value of them is not being fully appreciated in law. We've got a petition with almost 50,000 signatures and and we're trying to ultimately get to 100,000.  Adam: So if anyone is interested, they can search the Woodland Trust's Living Legends campaign on their computer and you can sign that online. Great, great stuff. I I think people might be surprised to learn that buildings often, or perhaps most of the time, get better legal protection than trees, even if the trees are older and actually more significant than the built structure next to it.  Adele: Yeah. So in Hampstead Heath, there's a, it's approximately 300 year old beech tree. And and it was planted next to a fence that had just been erected so think back 300 years ago. Now this fence has a Grade II listing on it, but the beech tree doesn't have any legal protection at all. So when they were found that the roots of the beech tree and the trunk was sort of impacting quite heavily on the fence, they were very, they wanted to essentially cut down this tree and remove it. However, that's not now happened luckily, but it's essentially having that equivalent of protection that is so desperately needed because we're valuing this this built heritage but we're not valuing this natural heritage that we have such a wealth of in the UK. The Woodland Trust celebrated its 50th anniversary last year and in that time, it's been working considerably to protect some of our oldest and most special trees and woodland, and ultimately I think it's now a time for action.  Adam: So let's just remind everyone that is the Living Legends campaign, which you can search for online if you want to sign that petition. And if you just want to find a woodland near you to walk in, just go to the Woodland Trust website, type in, find a wood that will come up with a whole range of places near you that you can visit. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Discover the fascinating ancient art of coppicing as we visit Priory Grove in Wales' Wye Valley, where the technique is still practised on a small scale to benefit both people and wildlife. We meet site manager Rob and contractor Joe to learn more about the coppicing carried out here, and how this interaction between people and nature has enabled the two to develop and evolve in tandem. Also in this episode, find out how an unfortunate end for ash trees resulted in a fantastic sea of wild garlic, the team's efforts to encourage dormice, bats, pine martens and other wildlife and which tree to identify by likening the trunk to elephants' feet!  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, today I am off to Priory Grove, which is next door really to the River Wye near Monmouth in Wales to meet the site manager Rob there who's gonna give me a bit of a tour. It's predominantly made up of ancient woodland and provides a wide range of habitats for wildlife. Things like roe, fallow deer, they're known to forage throughout the area, and a wide variety of bird species, including the tawny owl, sparrowhawk, and the great spotted woodpecker, which can all be seen on the wing here. All very exciting and I've just got to find it and find Rob.  Rob: Hello, I'm Rob Davies, site manager, South East Wales.  Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we are and why this is significant.  Rob: This is Priory Grove woodland. It's quite a large site on the outskirts of Monmouth, but nobody really knows what its history is. It's it's called Priory Grove, presumably because it was attached to one of the monastic estates round here. And that probably accounts for its survival as one of the one of the largest ancient woodlands next to Monmouth. And it did retain a lot of its coppice woodland, which is quite important for biodiversity.  Adam: Right. And what we're, I mean, we're standing by some felled, are these oak?  Rob: These are oak. Yes, oak, oak in length.  Adam: So why why have these been felled?  Rob: This is part of the coppice restoration programme, so coppicing on this site has been a management tool that's been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in this area and it's used to produce products like this, this oak that will go into timber framing and furniture and all those good things. And also, firewood is part of the underwood and the the the hazel and the the the understory coppice. So products for people and in the past it was used for all kinds of things before we had plastic. But it's still very useful, and so because it didn't cease until recently on this site, the animals and plants and the fauna that relies upon this method that have evolved with it essentially in the last 10,000 years or so since we've been managing woods in this way, still are present here on this site or in the local area. So if you continue the cycle you continue this interaction with the wildlife and you can help to reverse the biodiversity declines. So it's very holistic, really this management technique. But it does mean that to make space for the coppice regrowth, because trees don't grow under trees, you know it needs the light. The light needs to be there for the coppice to come up again. You have to take out some of these mature oaks that were planted 150, 200 years ago, with the intention of being used in the future. So we're planting things and we're carrying out the plans, we're bringing them to fruition, what people enacted a couple of hundred years ago.  Adam: It it's interesting, isn't it, because it it it is an ancient woodland, but that doesn't mean it's an untouched woodland, because for hundreds of years it's it's been managed. Man has had a hand in this and not only that, commerce has had a hand in that, so often I think we think of these things as a dichotomy. You have ancient woodland, nice, pristine sort of nature, and then you have sort of horrible invasive commerce. Actually, I think what's interesting about this site is that there isn't that dichotomy. They both work in tandem, is that fair?   Rob: That's right, it's a false dichotomy. So the reason these woods have survived is because they were used for people, and because of the way they're managed, coppicing and thinning is quite a sensitive technique, it allows space for nature to be present and to develop and evolve in tandem, so they're not mutually exclusive.  Adam: Yes. So tell me about coppicing is an important part of this site, tell me a little bit about what you're doing at the moment with that.  Rob: Yeah, so we've had a grant actually from the Wye Valley AONB from, supported by the Heritage Lottery Fund, to to do some coppicing work on stands that were coppiced about 20 years ago. So we're continuing that cycle. And we've been working with a company called Wye Coppice Community Interest Company, Wye Coppice CIC, and they're quite developed in, in the Wye Valley area. And we formed a good relationship with them and through them we've been able to do half a hectare of coppicing up on the other slope higher up in the site there. If you like we can go up and meet Joe?  Adam: That would be wonderful. Yeah. You you lead on I will follow. Well, you can hear from this I'm a bit out of breath, we've claimed, OK, I'll be embarrassed to say it's a hill, a small incline, but we've come across this stand of of felled trees. So just tell me a bit about what's going on here.  Rob: Exactly. So all these stumps you can see scattered throughout the stand. This is the coppice, so it's cut down to just above base ground level there now and it will just regrow. So it's kind of a natural defence strategy that we're just exploiting. So it's it's been used to, it's, you know, since it evolved things like hazel especially, it‘s used to being browsed off by animals, the animals move on and then the tree just comes back. So it's like a phoenix strategy it comes back, back up again. We're just exploiting that. So we'll cut the tree to base and then we'll protect the regrowth from the browsing animals and then the tree will come again.  Adam: Right, and this is the work done by Joe?  Rob: Yeah, this yeah so this is the work done by Joe Weaver. Joe's just down the end there actually if you want to come and meet him.  Adam: OK, let's go have it let's go meet him. Ohh I've got stuck. OK, so Joe, this is all your handiwork.  Joe: It is, yes.  Adam: Tell me a bit about what what it is you do then.  Joe: So I run Wye Coppice CIC, we're a coppice contracting company and working with Woodland Trust, Natural Resource Wales and Wildlife Trusts throughout the Wye Valley and we're embarking on a project to restore areas of the Wye Valley to restore, do a coppice restoration project for for various organisations throughout the Wye Valley. The what you see, what you see here is about 1 1/2 acres of cut down trees with 7 or 8 standards.  Adam: What are standards?  Joe: The standards are the trees that we've left behind, so, so they're the large, they're the larger trees.  Adam: Oh, I see right. So you wouldn't be coppicing, these are very well established big trees, you don't coppice trees like that, you coppice quite small trees, don't you?  Joe: Yes, so all the small diameter understory trees we've cut down to ground level and and they will, they will resprout and grow back again. We can then come back in 10 years and recut them and have a healthy supply of continue, a continual healthy supply of pole wood.  Adam: And yeah, so what you're trying to get with coppicing is sort of quite it's quite small diameter wood, is that correct?  Joe: Yes, generally speaking, so this is a restoration project you can see this first cut is fairly large diameter. And so most of this will go to make charcoal but generally speaking after 10, maybe 15 years of growth, we'll have poles about sort of thumb size and maybe up to about 50 pence diameter.  Adam: Right. And that's ideal size, is it?  Joe: And that's a really good size for products like bean poles, hedging stakes and binders that go on the top of naturally laid hedging and then various other pole wood applications.  Adam: And and when you see a coppiced tree, evidence that it's been coppiced, there's, I'm trying to look over there, is is this where you see lots of different branches actually coming out from the stump in the ground? That's evidence that's been coppiced, cause it not just one thing grows, lots of them?  Joe: That's right. So you can, if you have one birch tree standing up, for example, you can cut that down to the ground, and when you come back in a few months' time, you'll notice about 5 or 6 shoots coming from that one stump at the bottom of the ground. So if we can protect that from deer browsing and rabbit browsing, then those stems, those five or six shoots will grow up into individual stems that we can then use use in pole wood products.  Adam: It's odd, isn't it that that happens, though, that you chop down one sort of main stem and you get four or five coming back, that's sort of an  odd natural thing to happen, isn't it?  Joe: It is. I think it's the tree's response to the stress of being cut down. So it sort of puts out a lot of it puts a lot of energy into regrowing new growth to try to survive because essentially these broadleaf species, trees, they're they're forever growing, you can cut them down they'll regrow, cut them down again, they'll regrow again. So it's a constant cycle of of regrowth.  Adam: Yeah it's it's like sort of, you know, thumbing their nose at you isn't it, going well, you cut me down well I'm gonna come back fivefold. You know, that's it's a sort of really funny response.  Joe: Indeed. But we can reap the benefits of that.  Adam: Yeah no, no, it's, I get, I get why that's good. And coppicing itself, that, and that's an ancient art, isn't it?  Joe: It has, certainly here in the Wye Valley it was practised at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to produce charcoal to power the Industrial Revolution until coal was iintroduced and so it happened for hundreds and hundreds of years here.  Adam: Right. So you think, do you think I mean there's no need for you to be an historical expert on the history of coppicing, but do you think that's the first big sign of it happening, sort of Industrial Revolution time?  Joe: Certainly around here it is yeah, and there's some of the coupes that we've cut, some of the coppice areas that we've cut here, we've found evidence of charcoal hearths. So you can see flat areas with bits of charcoal sort of sliding down the bank.  Adam: So that would be ancient sites in here, well, ancient, I mean, a few 100 years old of them actually making charcoal in this woodland?  Joe: Yes, in this woodland, throughout the Wye Valley all the way throughout the Wye Valley here, yes.  Adam: Amazing. Now so your company, it's not just a traditional sort of private business, it is a a different sort of form. Just explain how that works.  Joe: So we run a community interest company and that allows us to access grant funding if we need to. Essentially, we're run as a private business, but we are able to do community outreach work as well and that's part of what we do is to try to educate people about sustainable woodland management.  Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this then? Did you grow up as a boy going I want to chop down trees to make fences.  Joe: No, I didn't. I was walking in the Dolomites, I saw two stoats fighting and thought woodland life is for me *laughs*.  Adam: Ok, well, fantastic, never heard that, so inspired by the the battle between two stoats and the and and the Dolomites. That's fantastic, but a hard life, I would have thought to run a business to, I mean it's physical work anyway, but that's my perception from the outside, is it hard work?  Joe: It it can be very difficult, it does have its benefits. Obviously it keeps you fit and it gets you outside but yes, it is a hard life and and you know it's it's quite a technical job as well and the training is expensive so we're trying to introduce a training programme as well through through our through our business Wye Coppice to try to get young people interested in woodland management.  Adam: And do you find that people sometimes don't understand or or perhaps disagree with the fact that commerce and nature can be actually mutually beneficial? Do you find that an issue at all?  Joe: Yes I do. Yes, and we're we're we're always willing to stop and talk to dog walkers especially. Shortly after COP26, we had two dog walkers come past and shout at us for chopping the trees down, after sitting down with them and having a cup of tea, they bought a bag of charcoal off us.  Adam: Right ok very good there we are. You're bringing them round one by one, one by one, those customers are coming over. Well brilliant and we've had not a bad day. I thought I might have to put my wet weather gear on, but it's been it's been OK. Anyway well, that's brilliant thank you very much. That's been really interesting.  Joe: Thank you.  Adam: So we've got this stand of trees we're looking at Rob. A couple couple of oak. Did you say that was a lime?   Rob: That's a lime yeah.   Adam: That's the lime, that that one with lots of ridges in it is that the lime?  Rob: That's it, yeah.  Adam: That's the lime. So why have you left these trees? Is there particular reasons you didn't take these ones out?  Rob: Yeah. So these as you can see, these are all mature trees and so you don't take these decisions lightly. So when we coppice this sort of half a football field area here, there were thirteen of these big mature trees, trees you can barely get your hands around as they're so large, taken a couple of hundred years to grow, so you've got to be quite careful and quite selective, although you need the light. There's an old adage about oak trees, it goes something like this that to fell an oak tree you need three things. You need a good eye, a sharp axe and a cold heart because these trees, you know they've been grown and nurtured and developed, and they're impressive life forms. And so it's not something you do without considering it very carefully so so you can see a couple of trees in here which are a couple of oaks, good size, but they're full of ivy, very dense ivy and that's very good for wintering bats. For hibernation, or for potentially summer roosting.  Adam: So the bats would live just amongst the Ivy, they'd sleep amongst the ivy?  Rob: Yeah when it gets as dense as this, when it's really all knotted, entwined, there's lots of gaps behind it. You could stick your hand in and find little cavities and several species of bat, especially pipistrelle, they they will hibernate over winter in this kind of growth. So you really don't want to be disturbing this.  Adam:  Right. And and what what's, is there something specific about lime that wildlife like is there any particular wildlife?  Rob: Well, it's good for bees. It's good good good pollen.  Adam: You get beehives in there? Oh I see, the pollen itself is good.  Rob: They like the flowers. Yeah yeah it produces lots of the small leaved lime it produces lots of good flowers and and it will attract aphids which is actually a food source for for dormice in the summer. So they they feed on the feed on the lime sap, you know if you park your car under a lime tree, you'll get this very sticky kind of substance coming off it.  Adam: Yes, yeah, yeah. Of course it does. Yes. Yeah, yeah.  Rob: So that attracts aphids, attracts the dormice, it's good for insects who like nectar as well. So it's a it's a very valuable tree and and you know  Adam: So interesting it's it's not valuable commercially, it's valuable for nature.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite it's quite a special tree in the in the Wye Valley, it doesn't occur much outside this area naturally, and it's kind of an ancient woodland indicator in this part of the world, perhaps not officially, but it's a.  Adam: OK. Any other trees we've got here?  Rob: Yeah. The rest of the trees, then are beech.  Adam: Right and you've kept those why?  Rob: Yeah, because you can see if you look at this one here, it's got quite a few cavities in it at the base at the top, beech tends to do that. It tends to take, form little cavities, rot holes and ways in, and that's ways in for fungus and then they eat out and hollow the tree. So the potential for harbouring bats again is very high in these trees. Without sort of going into them, doing some invasive exploration, you can't tell, but it's it's very high potential for bats. So again, bats, all species of bats in this country are protected under law because they've had massive declines like a lot of woodland species. And so we'll do everything we can to retain that habitat.  Adam: It's it's the Field of Dreams, philosophy. You you build it and they will come.  Rob: Yeah, yeah. This as long as it stays there, it'll always be valuable as habitat and so at least then, there are future sort of veteran trees within this stand.  Adam: It is interesting you you've already, I mean, we've only done a short part of this walk so far, but you talked about whoever was managing this woodland 100 years ago knew what they were talking about. And I think that's fascinating that we don't know who that person is or who who they, who those people were. And in 100 years time, people won't know who you were p.sumably, but the the evidence of your work will be here. They'll go yeah, that was a good bloke who did all this and left us with something.  Rob: That's it, you you don't plant trees for yourself, you plant trees for the future generation so you know, I won't see the oaks I plant develop. I'll be dead long before they mature and it's the same for the person who did this. But you can see the ones we took out, the ones I took out and selected were tall and straight. And that means that the coppice is well managed, because there was enough light for the hazel in the understory to come up straight away. If you cut hazel to the ground and you protect it, in a couple of years, it'll be way above six, eight foot and it'll just continue to get higher and higher over the next few years. And what that does is it shades the stem of the oak and it prevents side branching. So you get this very tall initial first stem. And that's what you're looking for. And that's what these trees had. So this would have clearly been cared for and these trees have been selected, they were on a journey from the moment they were planted.  Adam: OK. And just on my journey of education about trees, how do, what, they're beech, I wouldn't be able to spot that myself, what tells you they're beech?  Rob: It's a smooth trunk. If you look at this one here now you can see I always think of them as sort of elephant legs. They're grey and they're tall and they're smooth and they quite often have sort of knobbly bits on the base like an elephant's foot. And if you go through a stand of pure beech, it looks like it looks like a stand of elephants' feet, really tall, grey stems and these big huge buttress roots.  Adam: Fantastic. I am never going to forget that and I will always think of elephants when I look at a beech, a brilliant brilliant clue. Thank you. Right. So where we off to now?  Rob: We'll walk around so you can see the top of the coupe and just see the extent of it and and then we'll walk back down perhaps and have a look at this oak.   Adam: Brilliant. Well we've come to the, over the brow of the hill and along this path, there's a tiny little path for me to walk, and on either side there's a carpet of green. And I think I know what this carpet of green is. Rob, what is it tell me?  Rob: This is wild garlic.   Adam: Yeah. This is the time of year, is it?  Rob: Yep, you can see the flower heads. Ramsons it's also called, it's just about coming into flower now.  Adam: Sorry they're called what?  Rob: Ramson.  Adam: Ramson. Is that the flower itself is called ramson, or is that?  Rob: Well, just the plant.  Adam: We call it wild garlic but it's it's real name is ramson?  Rob: Well some people call it ramson too.  Adam: Right OK. And I never, I mean I have never picked and eaten anything from a forest because I am sure I will kill myself, but all of this, I mean, I've seen loads of people do that, pick wild garlic and it's, I mean there's there's acres of the stuff here.  Rob: It can it can yeah any kind of wild plant comes with the caveats that you need to know what you're doing.  Adam: Yes, which which I don't.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny yeah, this site is quite well known for its ramsons, for its wild garlic carpets. This this is in response to something here, quite a sad thing actually. We're right next, you can probably hear the road noise there, we're right next to the main road from Monmouth into the Forest of Dean, Staunton Road there, and unfortunately, a lot of the trees along the road edge were big, big, mature ash trees. And they all had dieback and they were all dropping limbs and about to crush a car. And so, you know, we take that very seriously in terms of health and safety so the trees just along the road edge, we left the ones in the wood, just the road edge trees we had to do something about them, so they've either been reduced or felled and what that's done in this woodland where in the last 60 years, you have had very little management, like most woods, post war, very little has happened. So it becomes very high, very closed canopy, very dense. And what's happened, because of the ash felling is, you've got this pocket of light here and the ramsons have immediately responded to that. So this wasn't here last year. This carpet like this.  Adam: What so this is this is brand new?  Rob: This is brand new. It was the odd plant coming up every year, patches of it.  Adam: I'm shocked because this looks like something from the Wizard, if this was yellow, this would be we'd be in the middle of the Wizard of Oz set here, the yellow brick road. It just I mean it it's just a beautiful, winding, lush, dense path of wild garlic. It looks like it's been here forever.  Rob: And in a sense it it was. It was just waiting for the opportunity, waiting for that temporary disturbance caused by the ash felling. And so like with the coppicing, that's what we're trying to recreate essentially, is these temporary pockets of disturbance where you you break up the canopy, you get this flush of greenery and then until the trees recover it and regrow again. So you don't want this homogeneous block of woodland really. You want, you want variation, because that's the key to success for, for wildlife and biodiversity, different niches, different ages. If you look closely, you can see it's not just the garlic either. You can see wood anemone, you can see greater wood vetch, you can see little violets. So, you know, quite quite a lot of species are now taking advantage of this temporary light that the ash felling's produced.  Adam: It is a nice positive message, isn't it? Because ash dieback has been a real tragedy. But even in the midst of problems there are opportunities which nature comes back with, it's an optimistic sign.  Rob: There is and so this as I say, you know these these trees would have coppiced without us because you know when animals browse them, they they they they come back after that so all we're doing is sort of recreating these natural processes through the management of the woodland. A once in a lifetime storm might have knocked these ash out or a hurricane, something like that, could have felled the whole area and then temporary open space, the plants capitalise and then the wood comes back again, so we're just just mimicking what nature does anyway.  Adam: I'm going to take a photo of this, put it on my Twitter feed. It's fantastic. So we've just taken a little stop on this path of wild garlic. So over to the right is well, I thought it was a bird box, it's a large bird box. You tell me it's actually something very specific.   Rob: Yeah, this is a pine marten nest box cause there was there has been a big release of pine marten. Pine martens are native to this country. It's kind of like a large weasel that lives in the trees. That's a really bad way of describing it, but it's a it's a mustelid. It's a large, impressive, intelligent animal and they were sort of pressed to persecute, to extinction, with persecution in the past. But they're very important in these woods for regulating, you know, the biodiversity, they, they prey on the grey squirrel especially, and they'll regulate bird numbers like any predator does. So it's it's great to see them coming back and it's a success story actually, because a couple of years ago now there was a release programme where captive animals were put into the Forest of Dean which is just over that direction. And so we put up some boxes and monitored them and pine martens are moving back into this area now. Whether they're using the boxes or not, we're not entirely sure, but they are moving in, so it's a, it's a really good story. So we'll do whatever we can to sort of encourage them because we've we've lost a lot of this old growth woodland that we're trying to protect and so they haven't got the nest cavities, so temporarily we'll provide this habitat.  Adam: And over the other side of the little dip, there's another pathway and it looks like the bank has been cut away and it's very black so that it doesn't look quite natural. What's going on there?  Rob: Well the the track that's been put in there is exposed, an earlier industry, so that's that's a charcoal platform. See what is it about five, five metres in diameter. Sort of sort of circular and very, very thick layer of charcoal. A huge fire has been there, but that's that's lots and lots of fires, one on top of the other.  Adam: So this is this is not current, this is probably a couple of hundred years old?  Rob: I think the last burn in this woodland would have been before the Second World War.  Adam: Oh right, so not that old.  Rob: Well, I mean, if they were still burning, they would have had the odd one, but this probably dates to sort of the the height of the the periods of the the late 19th century. So this here, it's been buried and forgotten about. But it shows you as Joe was saying earlier, at one point this was a managed wood and quite a few woods in Wales if you look on the maps you'll see things like coed poeth, which probably roughly translates as sort of hot wood or or burning woods, very roughly, probably, which gives you, may may give you an indication that these woods were worked and if you came here, you would have probably seen people living in the woods with the charcoal, tinner and charcoal workers, especially in the the 19th century, would have moved in in the summer to do the charcoal production with their families.  Adam: Just living in a tent or something?  Rob: Living in on site yeah, because then you know you don't want to move products, move things twice. You know, it's it's an economic, so you bring your family in, you produce your product, and then you come out with it at the end of the season so it's very peaceful here today. You can hear the birds. It's great for wildlife, but it would have been a managed landscape and we're trying to introduce a little bit of that. Obviously not people living in the woodlands anymore, but there's space for both here within this woodland, a bit a bit of coppicing a bit of management and reserve areas.  Adam: And I mean, I I hadn't quite noticed it while we were walking, but now we're we're standing here on this green carpet, there is an overpowering smell of garlic, it's quite extraordinary. It's very fresh, you know, sometimes when you're in the kitchen and the garlic it's it's, it's not fresh, it's pungent, but this is, you know, it's mixed with the sort of cool air, it's a really lovely smell.  Rob: It's making me hungry, actually.  Adam: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I was thinking whether I should pick some for dinner.  Rob: Chop some up. Pasta sauce. It's lovely with that.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely. And and there's another one amongst this wild garlic, it's clock, what was it?  Rob: Yeah, this one here, it's the town hall clock or moschatel as it's known.  Adam: Town hall clock that's it. So just, what's the what's its proper name?  Rob: Moschatel. Well, that, that's it's another acronym, ah pseudonym really it's moschatel.  Adam: Moschatel.  Rob: Or town hall clock. I forget the Latin actually, to my shame.  Adam: Is moschatel the Welsh word for it, or it's not  Rob: No, it's not. It's a general general word, just a colloquial local term.  Adam: And why is it called the town hall clock?  Rob: Look you can see these four, the flowers have four sides to them, like an old town hall clock would.  Adam: Right, lovely. It's really quite, quite a rich path we're wandering down.  Rob: You see the the bluebells are out look just now, if you look up into the wood there you can see them. In Welsh they're called clychau'r gog, which is the cuckoo bell.  Adam: Wow. Cuckoo bell.  Rob: Because it comes out when the cuckoo comes. Apparently, the grant paid for like a fence, contractors to fence off that, this boundary here, stop the deer coming in from the Dean. To stop the wild pigs actually, pigs are a  Adam: You get wild pigs here?  Rob: They're a nuisance round here, yeah.  Adam: Wild pigs?  Rob: They call them, they're not really boar, because a boar will produce like, I don't know, maybe a litter of six, and these pigs will do 22.   Adam: Right. Blimey. And how big are they?  Rob: They look like boar.  Adam: So and boar can be quite violent, can't they, quite aggressive.  Rob: Yeah, they're sort of half breed, half pig, half boar. They're big animals, got a cute little stripey piglets, just like a boar does. But they, you know, they're exponential in their reproduction, so they're  Adam: And and they're around this wood?  Rob: They're here.  Adam: So do they cause a problem with eating or do they nibble on the new trees and stuff?  Rob: Yeah, yeah, well, they sort of rootle, I mean you want boar, because they were here originally. You want boar, like the deer, you want them in sustainable numbers, they're all sleeping now.  Adam: Do they come out at night?  Rob: They only come out at night yeah.  Adam: I'll have to return.  Rob: Yeah. I mean you'd see them if you went up to the top path up there.  Adam: We haven't done a night podcast. I think we should do some bats and.  Rob: You can do bats, if you wait, while you're waiting for the badgers to come out, you can do the bats. There's a few sites around here where you can watch them.  Adam: OK, well maybe  Rob: I'm sure there's other Trust sites where people know.  Adam: Maybe I'll come back.  Rob: One summer when I was doing my bachelor's degree, I was working in Llanelli in like a, just a café just to get some money. I was working with the local girls there, I'd been out surfing in Llangennith on the Gower the day before and I was like just telling her how the seals came in because they chased the mackerel in just beyond the surf line and I was sitting there and the water just boiled with the stench of of fish and mackerel and I looked around and two seals popped up and they were driving the mackerel into the back of the waves to hunt them. I was telling her this and she was like, what, you're telling me there's seals in the water here, in Llanelli, where? I said just in the Gower. Seals? Like seals seals, like live in water? I said there's seals there, yeah, they've always been there, we just don't value what's around us.  Adam: We don't notice it.  Rob: We don't notice because you can't see it, you don't see it, yeah.  Adam: It's interesting, isn't it, Attenborough has done a series recently on the UK and you go, you don't have to go to Africa or Latin America to see these things.  Rob: There you go. I was in West Wales last week in Aberaeron, and you can see bottlenose dolphins. Increasingly under threat there's that number of point but yeah, but they're there. You can see the seals, you can see them all around us, yeah. This is doing well.  Adam: Well, I'm going to have to leave our little trip down the Wye Valley with some rather unexpected chat about seals and bottlenose dolphins and a promise to return one dark night to meet some bats. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

On this week's show, Adam Leventhal posed questions from Hacker News (mostly) to Oxide founders Bryan Cantrill and Steve Tuck. Stick around until the end to hear about the hardest parts of building Oxide--great, surprising answers from both Bryan and Steve.They were also joined by Steve Klabnik.Questions for Steve and Bryan:[@6:38] Q:Congrats to the team, but after hearing about Oxide for literal years since the beginning of the company and repeatedly reading different iterations of their landing page, I still don't know what their product actually is. It's a hypervisor host? Maybe? So I can host VMs on it? And a network switch? So I can....switch stuff? (*)A:Steve: A rack-scale computer; "A product that allows the rest of the market that runs on-premises IT access to cloud computing."Bryan: agrees[@8:46] Q:It's like an on prem AWS for devs. I don't understand the use case but the hardware is cool. (*)I didn't understand the business opportunity of Oxide at all. Didn't make sense to me.However if they're aiming at the companies parachuting out of the cloud back to data centers and on prem then it makes a lot of sense.It's possible that the price comparison is not with comparable computing devices, but simply with the 9 cents per gigabyte egress fee from major clouds. (*)A:Bryan: "Elastic infrastructure is great and shouldn't be cloistered to the public cloud"; Good reasons to run on-prem: compliance, security, risk management, latency, economics; "Once you get to a certain size, it really makes sense to own"Steve: As more things move onto the internet, need for on-prem is going to grow; you should have the freedom to own[@13:31] Q:Somebody help me understand the business value. All the tech is cool but I don't get the business model, it seems deeply impractical. You buy your own servers instead of renting, which is what most people are doing now. They argue there's a case for this, but it seems like a shrinking market. Everything has gone cloud. Even if there are lots of people who want to leave the cloud, all their data is there. That's how they get you -- it costs nothing to bring data in and a lot to transfer it out. So high cost to switch. AWS and others provide tons of other services in their clouds, which if you depend on you'll have to build out on top of Oxide. So even higher cost to switch. Even though you bought your own servers, you still have to run everything inside VMs, which introduce the sort of issues you would hope to avoid by buying your own servers! Why is this? Because they're building everything on Illumos (Solaris) which is for all practical purposes is dead outside Oxide and delivering questionable value here. Based on blogs/twitter/mastodon they have put a lot of effort into perfecting these weird EE side quests, but they're not making real new hardware (no new CPU, no new fabric, etc). I am skeptical any customers will notice or care and would have not noticed had they used off the shelf hardware/power setups. So you have to be this ultra-bizarre customer, somebody who wants their own servers, but doesn't mind VMs, doesn't need to migrate out of the cloud but wants this instead of whatever hardware they manage themselves now, who will buy a rack at a time, who doesn't need any custom hardware, and is willing to put up with whatever off-the-beaten path difficulties are going to occur because of the custom stuff they've done that's AFAICT is very low value for the customer. Who is this? Even the poster child for needing on prem, the CIA is on AWS now.I don't get it, it just seems like a bunch of geeks playing with VC money?(*)A:Bryan: "EE side quests" rant; you can't build robust, elastic infrastructure on commodity hardware at scale; "The minimum viable product is really, really big"; Example: monitoring fan power draw, tweaking reference desgins doesn't cut it Example: eliminating redundant AC power suppliesSteve: "Feels like I'm dealing with my divorced parents" post[@32:24] Q (Chat):It would be nice to see what this thing is like before having to write a big checkSteve: We are striving to have lab infrastructure available for test drives[@32:56] Q (Chat):I want to know about shipping insurance, logistics, who does the install, ...Bryan: "Next week we'll be joined by the operations team" we want to have an indepth conversation about those topics[@34:40] Q:Seems like Oxide is aiming to be the Apple of the enterprise hardware (which isn't too surprising given the background of the people involved - Sun used to be something like that as were other fully-integrated providers, though granted that Sun didn't write Unix from scratch). Almost like coming to a full circle from the days where the hardware and the software was all done in an integrated fashion before Linux turned-up and started to run on your toaster. (*)A:Bryan: We find things to emulate in both Apple and Sun, e.g., integrated hard- and software; AS/400Steve: "It's not hardware and software together for integration sake", it's required to deliver what the customer wants; "You can't control that experience when you only do half the equation"[@42:38] Q:I truly and honestly hope you succeed. I know for certain that the market for on-prem will remain large for certain sectors for the forseeable future. However. The kind of customer who spends this type of money can be conservative. They already have to go with on an unknown vendor, and rely on unknown hardware. Then they end up with a hypervisor virtually no one else in the same market segment uses.Would you say that KVM or ESXi would be an easier or harder sell here?Innovation budget can be a useful concept. And I'm afraid it's being stretched a lot. (*)A:Bryan: We can deliver more value with our own hypervisor; we've had a lot of experience in that domain from Joyent. There are a lot of reasons that VMware et al. are not popular with their own customers; Intel vs. AMDSteve: "We think it's super important that we're very transparent with what we're building"[@56:05] Q:what is the interface I get when I turn this $$$ computer on? What is the zero to first value when I buy this hardware? (*)A:Steve: "You roll the rack in, you have to give it power, and you have give it networking [...] and you are then off on starting the software experience"; Large pool of infrastructure reosources for customers/devs/SREs/... in a day or less; Similar experience to public cloud providers[@01:02:06] Q:One of my concerns when buying a complete solution like an iPhone (or an Oxide rack

Join us as presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble guides us through magical ancient woodland near her remote Wales home in the Wye Valley. With infectious enthusiasm and occasional impressions, she tells us about the plants and animals along our route as well as the story of her accidental career, becoming host of nation's favourite Springwatch having never wanted to be a TV presenter! Kate also talks worldwide travels, access to nature and planting trees with the Woodland Trust on her smallholding. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts we of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.   This is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault *laughs* So Kate sent me a pin, she said look this is going to be hard to find my place, she sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look I'm here I don't know if you can hear this you probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course there is no phone signal, so I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal. And I'm already late.   OK. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate and Kate *laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and told me to give up and she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house. But I really am nowhere near her house, so I seem to have broken Google which well, that's a first. Anyway I've got a banana here, so if she's a long time, I have dinner and I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen.   Well we've found Kate. We've found a whirly country drive lane. Feels a bit like rally driving. It's like, I mean, I don't understand why my map wouldn't find it, but this is certainly a bit of rally driving we're doing here getting to her house. My goodness. We found her house.   OK. Well, we're here. Which I never thought I I really thought it was really lovely. The idea was nice, and next time I'm in Wales, I'll give you a call so really, it's it's better than I thought better than I thought. Anyway, so you're leading me off with your two dogs.  Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful I think I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the lower Wye valley, so we are the the the the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid Wales, about 136 miles from here. I know that cause I've walked the whole route.  Adam: Really, we're not doing that today, are we?  Kate: No we're not no I promise. I promise Adam. So yes and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel and the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleaf, so we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?  Adam: You are lucky.  Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year. Which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift, because we are coming into spring, and if we actually just stop just for a second. You can hear that's a blue tit calling *imitates sound* and I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong was really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodland. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these words is *imitates sound* that's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker.  Adam: OK, I'm glad you. I I was guessing it might be a woodpecker, but I didn't want to.  Kate: So they start to drum around about sort of late January, they'll be drumming. And and then as the and we also have tawny owls, lots of tawny owls in these woods. We've got an owl box and we used to have an owl that we called Percy who we have no idea whether it was a boy or girl.  Adam: I was gonna say it was, a reason it was called Percy?  Kate: Don't know, just it just it looked like a Percy.  Adam: Just fancied the name. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.  Kate: But we have lovely tawny owls here. So, you know, at dusk and and when when I take the dogs out sort of last thing at night round about 10 o'clock 11:00 o'clock at night we walk down this track and and you stand here and you hear this wonderful and everyone thinks you know, tawny owls go toowit toowoo. They're the classic toowit toowoo owls, but actually you've got 2 owls calling, so you've got the male going *imitates noise* and then you have the females going *imitates noise*. And they're calling each other, establishing territories or going ooh I like the sound of you, there's a bit of flirting going on. So these are, as I say really it's it's just the biggest treat to live with this on my doorstep.  Adam: Right, so fantastic. You you clearly I mean, you've launched into a sort of fantastic description and detailed knowledge, but you are not a country girl by birth are you?  Kate: No, I am a country girl by birth.   Adam: Oh you are? I though you were born in London?  Kate: I am. No. Well, I was you're right, I was I was  Adam: Sorry, do I know where you were born and you don't.  Kate: Well, being born and where you were brought up is different.   Adam: Yeah, OK. OK, fair enough.  Kate: So I was, you're absolutely right, I was born in London. I was born in well, I was born in Wimbledon in fact. This is my neighbour by the way.  Adam: Right. Right. Wow. I didn't, we're in the middle of nowhere I didn't know there'd be a neighbour.  Kate: I know, but I know. But there are other people mad enough to live in these woods, and he's particularly mad.  Adam: OK. Does he mind you saying that?   Kate: Not at all. Not at all. No. He's absolutely used to it. Hello. Come and say hello to the Woodland Trust podcast.   Adam: No. OK, I'm just checking. OK. Hi, I'm Adam. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah, I hear you're her neighbour.  Kate: This is this is this is writer Mark Mccrum and his dog Jabba. Yes. So I'm just dragging Adam down to take a look at the ponds and talking about the ponds down there.  Mark: Oh lovely. Which ponds?  Kate: The ponds down there.  Mark: Oh those ones? Yeah, very good. I might see you on the reverse cause I'm gonna go all the way round.  Kate: Oh you're gonna go round. OK, fine. Lovely.  Mark: These are lovely woods cause you never see anybody here. *all laugh*  Adam: I'm sorry.  Kate: Apart from you   Adam: I was gonna say, and me, I've ruined it.  Kate: Yeah we're the only people who see each other aren't we.  Adam: So you were telling me you are you are born in Wimbledon, but you you grew up in the country then?   Kate: Yeah. So I was I was born in Wimbledon and yes. So after about, I think I was about six months old, my mother always says that she realised that London was clearly not the place for me and   Adam: From six months? Outward bound baby were you?  Kate: Yes! She said she said there basically wasn't enough space in London for me. So so yes, so I was brought up in Berkshire, right? And I was brought up next to a farm. So I was always a sort of vicariously farming kid. Even though my parents weren't farmers and and spent my childhood looking after various animals of various descriptions, and I think the wonderful thing about being the age I am, so everyone bemoans being old, but I think I just I I am so thankful that I was born in the sixties.  Adam: Why?  Kate: Because no one had invented health and safety, climbing trees, no one had climbing frames, you climbed trees. And I think the trees enjoyed it, and so did you. And if you hadn't fallen out of quite a lot of trees by the time you were 10 and had various, you know, scars or broken bits as proof of a proper childhood, it wasn't a proper childhood.   Adam: Right. OK.   Kate: So I had a lovely proper childhood of, you know, not being plonked in front of a screen of some description or another. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.  Adam: OK, I'm is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes and?  Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might yes, you might. It's quite a steep descent.  Adam: OK just as long as my, my face is my fortune though, as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. Lots of leaves around. Yeah.  Kate: Of course it will be a soft landing whatever you say. Lots of leaves. One of the nice things again about broadleaf woodland. And as you can see, I'm sure your leaf identification is brilliant, but we've got a lovely mix of oak here and beech, as well as the evergreen so the hollies and lovely, lovely mosses. But yes, what you're walking on is is a sort of glorious mulchy carpet, but we have a profusion of bluebells.  Adam: Already they've come up?  Kate: Well the bluebells, the the plants themselves have come up so the leaves are up and there are one or two I'm going to show you, is it, will it be your first bluebell of the year?  Adam: It, almost, almost we we can pretend it is for dramatic purposes. Let's let's go along.  Kate: OK, OK. They are, they're just, they're just starting to come here now and and you get that lovely moment. It'll be about probably about three weeks or a month's time, slightly depending on on what the weather does, where you get the, the unfurling of the beech trees. So that glorious kind of neon green which when the light goes through you get that sort of wonderful, almost disco light effect show.  Adam: And aren't they in Welsh, aren't they called cuckoos? The Welsh translation for bluebells is cuckoo clock. I think it's because it's like it's a harbinger of spring along with the cuckoo.  Kate: Oh, I didn't know that.  Adam: Oh my God, I found something you didn't know.  Kate: You know, you know, you'll know lots, I don't know, but  Adam: No, no, let's hope that's true that's that's I'll have to go check that. Do check that before you tell anybody.   Kate: Well, I'll just blame you.  Adam: But no, I do think in Welsh the translation for Bluebell is is cuckoo clock or something like that because it is this harbinger of spring and I think that's it's a really nice I I won't even try the Welsh but in Welsh it sounds very so I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This is this has been a constant in your life?   Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.  Adam: Except, I mean, you didn't choose a a nature career, did you? I mean, you you're involved now we can talk about that. But first, what was your first career?  Kate: Well, I mean. Career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.  Adam: Yeah. OK, so your accidental career.  Kate: So my accidental career, well, I had this idea that that I that I wanted to work in television, although again I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a a safari guide.  Adam: Good. I can see the appeal of that.  Kate: I went to I when I was 19 having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course. So I went to Africa when I was 19 and.  Adam: Sorry we're not talking on a holiday?  Kate: No it was a well it was a it was probably a rebellion.   Adam: Right. You went as far away as your your parents as you could. I'm not going out for the evening I'm popping off to Africa?  Kate: Yes, yes. I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.  Adam: Right. Yeah, good. Good exit line. So where, where, where in Africa were you and what were you doing there?  Kate: So I I started in South Africa. I ended up in Egypt.  Adam: Right, just bumming around doing sort of bar work or doing something more serious?  Kate: I did I did I was a waitress for a little bit, but I was very, very bad and was sacked. I I was a model for a little bit, also very bad, very bad at that too.   Adam: Why were you so bad at that?   Kate: Because because I really don't like having my photograph taken and I really like food.  Adam: Yes, OK well I would I would have guessed I could have advised you that wasn't the career for you.  Kate: So so the two things, yeah, didn't really weren't terribly compatible to that. But I then got a job as a cook and a driver on a safari, and I drove a truck aged 19, having never really been out of Berkshire, from Cape Town, through Botswana and into Zimbabwe. And and then I hitched back to Cape Town. So I had a a real adventure. But what I what it really did for me was, having had this very sort of unconsciously wild childhood, I don't mean you know lots of parties and taking drugs I mean, a natural wild childhood, I then went to a place where the natural world was was so extraordinary and so mindblowing, and on a scale, you know, everything was was was like technicolour. You know, the birds were amazing. The the you know the the the size of the animals, the proliferation of the wildlife, the size of the landscapes, the emptiness and I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think it's, you know, it's extraordinary, it's it's mind blowing in every way and so even though I then came back and thought I want to have this sort of career in telly what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.  Adam: Right. And is that what you did?  Kate: No. Not initially anyway.  Adam: OK, but you have done, I mean you've done nature programmes, lots of nature programmes. What did you first start doing?  Kate: We're going down here. I have. So I first started sweeping streets in the East End.  Adam: In EastEnders?  Kate: No, in the East End, no. I was a runner so I basically got jobs wherever I could get jobs and I got a job on a commercial that happened to be shooting in the East End and they needed the streets swept and so that was one of my jobs. But had no plans to be on the telly that that really did happen by mistake.  Adam: I think you know my first job in telly. I don't know if you remember That's Life with Esther Rantzen. Do you remember they she always had rude, funny vegetables?   Kate: I do, yes  Adam: That was my job to find them, yeah so only only marginally above the street sweeping.   Kate: Oh my goodness!  Adam: So you got how did you get picked there? I mean, we gotta get back to the natural world. But you've had such such a fantastic life. So I mean, I think people will be fascinated to know you have not much of even a vague plan about what you're doing. You're fumbling about a bit.  Kate: None, yeah. Living in a squat. Eating crisps.  Adam: So yeah, right. So not many models will be will be living like that and eating crisps, I get that You're sweeping streets as your way into telly, all of a sudden you're on telly. How did that happen, was that more of a plan or did someone just turn around and go, hey, you, street sweeper, you'll do?  Kate: No, it wasn't. So I had I had graduated from street sweeper, so it took about probably four four or five years I have become by now a sort of senior researcher. And I got a job at the BBC. My first job at the BBC on a programme called Animal Hospital.  Adam: Right. Yes. And you were still a researcher there or presenter?  Kate: Yeah, as a researcher. And and I think the reason that I got the job was actually my childhood. Because I think it was the first series, in fact, I think the only series that they did of Animal Hospital in a rural practice. So we went to a practice that didn't just do small animals, pets type animals, but also bigger animals like farm animals and horses and I think the only reason I got the job was that I was the only person they interviewed who knew what to do with something bigger than a hamster.   Adam: Right ok great.  Kate: And I had my own wellies.  Adam: Oh good. Always important for a career in telly, your own wellies, see these are the secrets people wanna know. Good. So you've got your wellies?   Kate: Always really, really important. They are. So I got that job I got that researcher job. And at the end of it, the BBC do this appraisal thing. And they said we thought you were alright, you did OK, will you come back and do the next series and I said I'd absolutely love to. I'd really loved it, absolutely loved it. Can we just pause here a minute because this,  Adam: A sea of wild garlic?  Kate: No, these are bluebells.  Adam: These are bluebells? Oh, sorry. Look at the ignorance here.  Kate: These are bluebells. Well, those white flowers let me show you these because they're beautiful.  Adam: I thought like I I think that's what I thought was wild garlic shows you *unintelligible* OK, we've got a proper safari expert.  Kate: No. So look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, first bluebell starting to unfurl except my dog's just walked all over it. Come on you're not supposed to walk on there.  Adam: So this is, all of this is bluebells?  Kate: So all of this will be bluebells and in about 3 weeks time you get this absolutely, it's so blue it's like the colour actually detaches itself from the flowers and floats above it in this sort of glorious mist, it's beautiful. But this these flowers here I love. And these are these are one of the flowers along with celandines which are the kind of waxy yellow flowers that people will see in woodlands and even in their gardens at this time of year, these are wood anemones. And they are lovely, very delicate white flowers with these slightly sort of hand-like leaves and the lovely thing about these, they're not looking at their best at the moment because it's been quite a wet day. But when the sun's out, they open to the sun like these brilliant white stars. And sometimes there are areas around here where you'll see carpets of wood anemones and they're one of the first I've seen these as early as January, although not this year because we had lots of frosts.  Adam: It's funny you, you, you, you use the word magical I'm just looking at this tree with covered in moss and everything, there is something magical about these sorts of places, a sort of sense of, sense of, a Tolkien type moment isnt there?.  Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I I don't think it is a coincidence that lots of fairytales are set in woodlands because there is something otherworldly about them. We're going to head keep heading down just so that you have a really good climb on the way up.  Adam: Yeah, I was gonna say I'm fine going down, I'm assuming you're sending a car to pick me up? It's well a little, a little Uber will just I'm sure,   Kate: Nice try, Adam! Lots of Ubers around here. Look, look, look.   Adam: Oh look now that is OK that's a proper bluebell.  Kate: That is a, a, a bluebell that's a proper bluebell.  Adam: Yeah, that is my first proper bluebell of the year.  Kate: And you can see all the others are just starting to come.  Adam: And that's and it is lovely because clearly so few people come here that's the problem often with bluebells is when people trample all over them. And we've got just one clean path down here and it's completely undisturbed for as far as the eye can see. So yes, we OK, we we did a little pit stop for bluebells. We're back on and the what was the programme, animal?  Kate: Animal Animal Hospital.  Adam: Animal Hospital. So they wanted you back as a researcher. I'm interested in the jump from behind the screen to on screen.  Kate: So so they basically said lovely we'll see you in four months and I said oh well, I've got a landlord and rent to pay, I can't not work for four months. I'm going to have to get another job and it may mean that I'm not available. And they said ohh well, maybe we can find you something else within the BBC as a stopgap. And I had also at that point, so this is the mid 90s now, started writing. I was writing travel. And I'd spent at the the a end of a a, the second Africa trip that I did between 94 and 95, I'd spent the last two months of that in Madagascar.  Adam: Right.  Kate: Madagascar was a place that I was obsessed with because of its wildlife because it has unique flora and fauna. I came back and got an article commissioned to write about it, and it was the first,  Adam: Your first commission?  Kate: Yes, my first commission and my first article, and it was in a broad a broadsheet newspaper, and I was very excited and very proud about that. And so when I was asked by the series producer of the BBC Holiday programme, whether I would consider coming to work for them because I was a travel writer,  Adam: Right OK, yeah, you're now a travel writer because of your one article.  Kate: I am I am now a I am now a travel writer on the strength of one of one article.  Adam: Whoa oh Kate, I'm so glad you were the first person to sort of go over *Kate laughs* That was before me I just want that on record.   Kate: Yeah.   Adam: OK so I haven't gone over yet.   Kate: You haven't got over yet.   Adam: OK. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.  Kate: Yes. So I got a job on the BBC Holiday programme. Anyway the next day I got called into the big boss's office. And I assumed that my short lived career at the BBC Holiday programme was about to be ended because I wasn't quite sure why, but perhaps because I hadn't been taking the producers guidelines as seriously as I might and that also I had smoked on a fire escape, which probably wasn't a good idea. And instead I was asked to do a screen test and I assumed that this was the sort of common test that the Holiday programme did and I tried to say I really don't want to be a presenter thank you, I love doing, I love making the programmes, I love the research, I love talking to people, I love putting things together. I'm quite, I like logistics. I'm quite, you know, I like all that stuff I don't want to be a presenter. And they went well do a do a screen test. So at this point I just thought I've just got to get out of this office because I feel very embarrassed by the whole situation. So I will just nod smile say yes, do it, it'll be a disaster, and then everything can go back to normal. So that's what I did. Three weeks later, the boss came into the office,  Adam: Sorry, we have to stop. This is a story that's gonna last all day, cause I keep stopping because your dog is posing or it was posing beautifully by this river.  Kate: Well, so this river is an important, one of the sort of parallel streams that run into the River Wye for this is the Angidy, we are in the Angidy Valley, surrounded by amazing woodland on both sides, it's a very steep sided valley. This river is particularly good for dippers, which are those lovely chocolate brown and white birds, they look like little waiters.  Adam: Right *laughs*  Kate: And they and they, they're called dippers because that's exactly what they do. So we'll keep an eye out because we might see some, but they'll sit on a stone like that exposed stone within the waterfall there and they will jump into the water and literally completely submerge. They'll disappear completely and they're looking for things like caddisfly larva, which is what they feed on, and then they'll bob up and come back up and they're they're just these wonderful, perky, very smart little birds.  Adam: Brilliant, OK.  Kate: They're the only British songbird that is also a water bird.  Adam: Wow, OK, good. All right.   Kate: There you are, little bit of, little bit of,  Adam: No, I like these these these sorts of diversions we take, it's it's almost like doing a stand up routine, so we're gonna go gonna go back to the story now. So you thought everybody in the world gets a screen test. So I'm just doing this and then they'll leave me alone.  Kate: Yes, yes. And and then the boss came into the office about 3 weeks later. And she said, can you go to France tomorrow? And I said yes, of course, assuming that they needed somebody to carry the heavy stuff. Bhcause carrying heavy stuff is the other thing that I am good at. I can whistle very loudly and I can carry very heavy things and those are really the only two things that I can offer the world.  Adam: OK, I I you, you have set yourself up for a big whistle at the end, so we'll we'll wait for that then let's hold out.  Kate: It it will blow your ears well, that's all I'm saying. So she said, we want you to present a film on a barge in Normandy, could you please do something about my hair, she said. My own hair.  Adam: I see she didn't ask you to be a hairdresser? Also could you cut my hair?  Kate: Yes could you cut my hair *laughs*. No, could you do something about your hair, she said. I thought she's been talking to my mum, who constantly despairs of my lack of my lack of grooming.  Adam: Right, also right at this point of hair hair disasters, we have to pause because we've come across as you may hear an extraordinary small waterfall, it's a weir, really, isn't it?   Kate: It is really.  Adam: I'm gonna take another photo of this before we get back to the life and misadventures of Kate Humble. So I'm just gonna take a photo. You'll find that, no doubt on one of our Twitter feeds. Oh, I know beautiful, oh no the dogs disappeared, the dog doesn't like posing for me. But all right, so now, you're off to France. You need a haircut and,  Kate: So I'm off to France. I need I need I need to basically smarten myself up. Off I went to France and presented my first film.  Adam: Right. And that was, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but that was the beginning of that was the beginning of this, the story. OK, well, amazing.  Kate: Yes. My first job for the natural history unit came in 2000. And I was asked to do a programme, which was a sort of, was made in response to Blue Planet. So the very first series of the Blue Planet, which I think everybody watched with their mouths open because we had never seen the oceans in that way before, particularly the deep ocean. And there was a phrase used which I have used many, many times since, which was that more people have been to the moon than there have been to the deep ocean. And people were fascinated by these, they were they were creatures that looked like they might have been designed for Star Wars. They were so extraordinary.  Adam: These sort of angler fish which have which have this light don't they.  Kate: That sort of thing, and these these, you know, these astonishing, you know, plankton with flashing lights, there were Dumbo octopus with, you know, little octopus with these sort of literally did look like Dumbo the elephant, you know, deep water sharks that people had never seen before that were really slow moving and and, you know astonishingly well-adapted to live at depths and in in at water pressure that no one thought anything could exist in and come on dogs we're gonna keep, do you wanna have a,  Adam: And so yours was a response, in what way?   Kate: So we did a live,  Adam: The dogs keep looking at me like they want me to throw something for them is that what's going on?  Kate: They do, and I'm going to just try and find a, here let's try let's try this, here we are.  Adam: Look, they're very, oh you've thrown it into the river?   Kate: Go on, in you go.  Adam: Oh, look at that go!  Kate: Come on Teg, do you wanna go in as well? Here you are. This one's going to sink, go on. Ready? Go. Good girl. Where's it gone? Teggy, it's just there. That's it. Well done, well done, dogs.  Adam: Oh they like that.  Kate: Well, I can't go and get it, you have to bring it here, that's the deal with sticks *laughs* So we did a live programme from a boat in Monterey Bay. I made some films to play into that live show. So I went to the Cayman Islands, which is a rotten thing to ask anybody to do, can you imagine?  Adam: Terrible, terrible. You wanted to be back in the East End really.  Kate: I did really, sweeping streets and instead there I was, doing films about coral reefs and this is the one of, this is the wonderful thing about the natural history unit or just about making films with animals is the lengths that you have to go to to be able to capture the natural world in all its wonder. And so I was asked to go and film a shark called a six gill shark that lives very deep and only about 10 people in the world had ever seen. And I was sent to go and find this creature. You know, I can't I can't even now I can't really believe that I was asked to do that.   Adam: And did you find it?  Kate: Eventually. We had to do two, we did one trip we failed to find it,   Adam: How how long was that?  Kate: So that was, we did 6 dives. It was an amazing trip. We didn't get the shark on the first trip. We went back for another trip. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. We finally got it and it was incredible. Incredible moment. And that was the first job that I did for the natural history unit and there was then somebody who came up with the idea of doing British wildlife life live at kind of springtime, like kind of now.   Adam: And this was Springwatch was it?  Kate: This was the precursor to Springwatch.   Adam: Oh I didn't know there was one.  Kate: There were two!  Adam: What were they called?  Kate: So the first one was called Wild In Your Garden. So I'm just going to put the dogs on a lead here. Hold on, poppet. Just hold on my poppet. That's it. We've got to take Adam up the hill now. So yes, so the first one was called Wild In Your Garden and it was Bill Oddie and Simon King and me. And we did two shows a night, from gardens in Bristol, and it sort of worked as an idea.  Adam: Right. OK.  Kate: It worked well enough or it wasn't so much of a disaster that there wasn't a thought of let's try it slightly differently, maybe on a farm instead of in the garden, and we went to this wonderful organic farm in Devon and basically made camp for three weeks. And made a series called Britain Goes Wild. And Britain went a tiny bit wild. And so the following year we thought, well, we'll do it again, but maybe we'll just call it something different.  Adam: Right.  Kate: And someone came up with the idea of calling it spring watch and everyone said, and it always went out at the same time as it does now, sort of end of May and people go, it's not really spring though is it? And we're like, well spring enough, still spring things happening and Springwatch seemed to capture everybody's imaginations and and I presented that for 10 years.  Adam: And you presented that for how many, how many years?  Kate: Ten.  Adam: Blimey! That's a long,  Kate: Yeah, I know. I've just grown old on telly and then Autumnwatch came into being and then Winterwatch and I did Seawatch. So I did a series about British Britain's seas and and marine life. Yeah. So I did eventually get my wish of working for the natural history unit.  Adam: Oh, that's very good. The fairy godmother in the form of the BBC descended and granted your wish. And now from all of those adventures abroad and on TV and everything you then said, I'm gonna move to this really quite, there's another car coming, quite quite remote parts of Wales. Why that?  Kate: We're going to head up here. Hold on, dogs. There we are.  Adam: Oh there's some steps. Hallelujah.  Kate: OK, only for this little bit.  Adam: Look, stop stop taking away the hope.  Kate: *laughs* So so I we moved,  Adam: Yes so you you picked up sticks and then moved to Wales. Perhaps it's not such a big move because the natural world has seemed to be always the centre of things for you. So but why Wales in particular?  Kate: Well, that is a curious question. I had no connection with Wales as far as I was aware. I honestly honestly can't tell you why I felt this extraordinary pull to live here. But it really was it was like a magnetic pull. There is actually a a Welsh word and I'm not sure I'm really allowed to use it in my context, but I can't think of a better word to use for the feeling that I had. And it's hiraeth and is a word that it's sort of more than home sickness. It's like a deep longing for the place that you belong. A yearning, a pit of the stomach emptiness for your home.  Adam: You felt this was a spiritual home, did you?   Kate: I don't know I really don't know, Adam. I, as I say I just had this extraordinary pull to live here. And yeah, I would look at the, there are these old fashioned things called maps, and I would look at the A to Z of Great Britain. And you know, there I was in the South East and if you look at a thing called a map,  Adam: Yes, sorry is this a point about me getting lost on the way to you.   Kate: No no not even remotely. No, it's the fact that no one uses them anymore, and yet, they're the greatest treasures we have. So if you look at a map, the South East of England is just this chaos of colour and roads and towns and names. And it's just, you know, there's not a square millimetre that hasn't got a name in it or something in. The further west you go, the browner the map becomes, and when you go over the border into Wales, it's mainly brown and green and it's got beautiful lyrical names like Abergavenny and and it's got mountains and mountains, when you've been brought up in Berkshire mountains are the height of exoticism. To live in a in a country that had mountains all of its own just struck me as being remarkable. I still, 15 years on, find it remarkable that I can I can get up at breakfast, not go terribly far, and climb a bona fide mountain. I love that. And that's what I love about Wales.  Adam: And and you've done more than, I mean, people might feel that and move to a beautiful part of the country and live there and more or less carry on with their ordinary life. But you've not done that. I mean, you're not just you don't just go for walks, the natural world is something you've created a a new career out of as well. Is that fair?  Kate: I wouldn't call it a career.  Adam: OK but you're very much well, but you make money from it and it fills your days.   Kate: Well, no, no, I don't think I don't know I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. I think you know I my working life is peculiar. I've I still am involved making television programmes, some of which involve the natural world. I still write, some of that's about the natural world, but not all of it. The natural world for me is nothing to do with making a living. Making a living. But it is about living. And it was one of the things that I was acutely aware of when I lived in London was I felt cut off from the seasons. This year you know, I know I can tell you that I didn't hear a skylark until the middle of March last year it was Valentine's Day. I can tell you that because that's what I'm experiencing. And I love feeling that instead of the natural world being something I watch on the television or I read about in a book that I am able to be part of it. And that's one of the big problems I think that we face now with trying to engage people with the importance of things like biodiversity, species loss, habitat loss. None of those things sound very sexy, and none of those things appear to matter to us because we as a species so weirdly and inexplicably view ourselves as a species separate from the natural world and the natural world has become something that we just watch for our entertainment. But we are just another mammal in this amazingly complex, beautiful, brilliant web that is the biodiversity web, where everything fits in and everything works together, and one thing feeds another thing and you know, until we feel properly part of that, immersed in it and and wrapped up in it, why are we ever going to worry about the fact that it is now a biodiversity net that's full of holes, and those holes mean that the net becomes less and less effective and the less effective that net becomes, the more it affects us, but we see ourselves as somehow immune from that process and we're not. And what I love about living here, what I love about walking in this area every day, twice a day, is the fact that I feel that I can, I'm I'm more in tune with our natural world and that is sadly, it shouldn't feel a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it is.  Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you're you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?  Kate: Yes.   Adam: So what do you, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?  Kate: I wish it didn't, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.  Adam: Do you do you feel that's an unfair question? Or do you think there's?  Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't perhaps don't experience it experience the advantages of the natural world, or they haven't been they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean, there's loads of science. And you know, it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, sing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online and and we forget that actually all we need is right here. And, you know, it's a hard sell for some to to somebody who's never experienced this, who hasn't had the privileges I've undoubtedly had, you know who have not grown up in the countryside, who find it fearful or boring or inexplicable, don't understand where they fit in.  Adam: And I think one of the perhaps growing debates, I think or interesting ones anyway for me is is the balance between trying to either scare people or make them aware of the environmental challenges and potential for disaster. And then so to sort of go engage with the subject it's really it's really newsworthy, it's it's it's imperative people do things and actually turning people off going well we're we're all going to literally burn, enjoy the party whilst it lasts. So what what do you feel about that?  Kate: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all all, all you have to do, all you have to do is watch Don't Look Up. Have you seen that film?   Adam: Yes.  Kate: And and and that, you know, absolutely embodies what you have just said.  Adam: So what do you think about that? Because I think there's a balance between going, offering hope, the power or audacity of hope is a phrase one hears as opposed to the sort of potential to frighten people into action. Actually the opposite, don't frighten them into action. Offer them hope of change. And I wonder where you feel that, if we've got that balance right, or whether,  Kate: No, we haven't got it right and I, but I don't know what the balance is because I think there's a real, I think that a lot of programmes that are made about natural history now have become so glossy and so beautiful and and so almost otherworldly that they don't actually reflect the reality of the natural world. And a lot of them again show the natural world without the context of people. And of course, that's sort of how we want to see it, we don't want people muddying those pictures. We don't want, as you say, the kind of the awful stories of the litter and the, you know, the the, the, the negative impact that human have humans have had on the natural environment. So we kind of don't want to see it, but equally if we don't see it, we don't engage with it and we kind of can watch one of those documentaries and even if David Attenborough is telling you that, you know, this is a habitat that's in peril or this is the last animal of its type that you will ever see, you don't really take that in because you're looking at these really stunning pictures and you think it's kind of OK. But I don't know what the answer is because I also know that as you say, if all you peddle is hopelessness and helplessness, no one's going to engage, they're going to stick their heads in the sand and just hope that it all goes away and pass it on to the next generation. So somehow we as communicators need to find a way that really does cut through. That really does make people feel, genuinely feel part of the natural world, that it isn't just another thing. I had the great joy of interviewing Tim Peake not that long ago, and I was interviewing him for a book that I'm writing about the concept of home. And I thought he would have, of anybody, a really unique idea of home having not just left home but left the planet. And he told me that he did a spacewalk, he was out in space for over four hours, and he said the blackness is like a blackness you cannot imagine. But he said, you know, you see Mars and Jupiter and Venus and you see Earth. And he said, when you're there, amongst the planets in that way you see that Earth is, as far as anyone's experience, and any telescope has been able to tell us, unique. You look at it and he said there it is, this colour, this blue and green planet, whereas everything else is, you know silver and and ghostly, ours is a living planet and he said he had this, he had this sort of feeling when he was there looking at Earth and imagining somebody, some other being coming up and tapping him on the shoulder and saying hey, hi,  who are you? I'm Tim. And he'd say oh hello so where are you from then? And Tim said I felt this enormous swell of pride to be able to point to our planet and say I'm from that planet there. I'm from Earth. I'm an earthling and I thought if all of us had that experience, could understand what it was like, how special our planet is in a universe that is infinite as far as we know and that we have, we have no idea what's out there, but what we do know at the moment is that our planet is unique and I think we would treasure it that much more and have moments like this of just standing amongst the trees and midges coming out, the drizzle, the mud and go, this is our home, this is where we live. It's really special. Aren't we lucky?  Adam: You're taking me uphill again aren't you.  Kate: I am taking uphill, but you've done the worst bit and you and and actually you marched. I was impressed!  Adam: Oh OK good. You know I'll fall apart after, I'm just doing it so I don't embarrass myself too badly.  Kate: *laughs* I'm afraid it is going to get very, very muddy, so you're going to have wet socks, mud up to your knees, you know, that's why I spend six months of the year in wellies.  Adam: Right OK. But you know, that is the privilege of being an earthling, isn't it?   Kate: It is it is.  Adam: So you've been you've got involved with the Woodland Trust.  Kate: I've been involved with the Woodland Trust for quite a long time, but it really started when we took on a farm near here.  Adam: What's this an arable farm?  Kate: No, it was a small council farm. It belonged to the council and people are not really aware that there are such a thing.   Adam: I've never heard this one.  Kate: No, but there used to be about 16,000 council farms throughout Britain and they were set up as part of the 1906 Smallholdings and Allotments Act and they were there, low rent, small areas, usually 30, 40 acres that sort of size and they would be available to rent for farmers who for whatever reason, didn't have a farm of their own. And over the years, as farming practices have changed as economic models have driven farmers to need to to produce things on a bigger scale, small farms have been basically relegated to either hobby farms or they've been broken up and sold to land that's been added to bigger farms. So we've lost an enormous number of these small farms and with them an enormous opportunity for people with farming skills to stay on the land and produce as food. And that's what was going to happen to this farm. And for whatever reason, I just felt this was not the thing to do and to cut a very, very, very long story short, we ended up taking over the farm and setting up a rural skills centre o prove that a small farm, ours is just over 100 acres, could still be viable. It supports itself and that's really important. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we were really interested to do when we took it over was to add more trees. It's it's got some wonderful ancient trees. There's an oak tree on the farm that we call Old Man Oak, as did the tenants before us. They introduced us to him and we think he's about 600 years old. And but we wanted to plant more trees. But we had this conundrum of how do we increase the tree cover on the farm without taking away the pasture because obviously we needed the pasture for the livestock and it was the Woodland Trust that helped us with that conundrum. So they looked, together we walked round the farm and we identified either areas where there were small copses or where there was a bit of a hedge. So what we did with the Woodland Trust's advice and input was to put in trees as shelter breaks, so not actually impinging on the pasture, just or very much, but adding a kind of a thicker bit of hedge if you like, or making a copse a little bit bigger and in that way we've planted over 1,000 trees on the farm in the last decade that we've had it. And then at home we have a four acre small holding and and so at the beginning of last year I started thinking maybe it's an age thing, you start thinking about legacy and when you when you take over a piece of land, what you start to understand actually very quickly is that you will never own it, that you are simply the caretaker of it for the time that you are around. And I think we've got cleverer now. Our knowledge has become greater. We understand that just planting trees isn't the answer. We need to think about we need to think of landscape as a mosaic and so what we wanted to do was to create a little mosaic. Plant trees, create water or make a space for water, make sure that there was going to be areas that had glade that was good for insects, that was good for wild flowers. And so I talked to the Woodland Trust and said, are you going to be into this idea, because it's not just planting trees and they went, that's exactly what we're into. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to create habitat. It's not about blanketing a landscape with trees. It's about planting the right trees in the right places at the right density to create something that you know, in a generation's time will have real lasting value, and that's what's been so wonderful about working with, you know, an organisation like that that sees big picture, sees longevity as as an advantage rather than as a disadvantage. And and that's what's been so lovely is that, you know, I can go to them and say so I've got this plan. I mean, I'm not even going to be alive to see it kind of come to fruition but do you care? And they went, we don't care, do you care? No. Let's do it. And that's wonderful.  Adam: Wonderful. OK sorry, this is a bit, this is the bit where I'm going ohh well, I'm swimming effectively swimming now.  Kate: Sorry. This is a very wet bit.  Adam: Hold on a second. OK. Right. That's a very Norman Wisdom walk I seem to have. OK. Yeah. OK, so ohh sorry, hold on.  Kate: It gets, that's the that's the wettest bit now, now we're now we're more or less home and dry.  Adam: Oh well you know what we we might be home, but we are not dry. That would be inaccurate at this point. So well, that's a neat story to bring us back to home with isn't it. So you know things are looking good. It's all hopeful. A a long journey and a long one ahead, you know, not just for you, but for that natural world you're creating.  Kate: Well, I hope that you know the the I I think going back to to what you said about how we can, we can help us all feel that we are actually, you know part and parcel of the natural world rather than observers of it or visitors of it and things like planting trees or being aware of the seasonal joys of the bluebells coming through, or, you know the leaf fall in the autumn and the colour, all those things if if i you know if we can build that awareness that brings with it huge joy and reward, then maybe we'll start to cut through again and people will start to feel more like the natural world is their world and not just another part of the planet that they live on.  Adam: Well having arrived back at Kate's home, let me just say there are lots more woodland walk podcasts for you to enjoy wherever you get your podcasts from. And indeed, if you want to find an actual wood near you well, you can go to the Woodland Trust website www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Specright and Packaging InfoMeyers Sustainable Packaging Guide eBookSponsor information!If you listened to the podcast and wanted to connect with Specright to rid the world of waste. Let's go! www.specright.com/pkg. Prepare your company for the world of EPR laws and be the sustainability hero! Make sure you check them out and join them on their mission to have a world where people are free to make amazing things!SupplyCaddy is welcomed on as the latest packaging podcast sponsor! SupplyCaddy is a leading global manufacturer and supplier of packaging and disposables for the foodservice industry. With headquarters in Miami, Florida, and manufacturing facilities in North America and Europe, SupplyCaddy is able to provide high-quality, affordable products for restaurants, chains, and foodservice brands globally. For more information, visit SupplyCaddy.com.[SUMMARY]:Circularity 2021 was a two-day conference that brought together people from various industries to discuss sustainability. Corey and Adam attended the event and shared their experience. They met new people, made new connections, and attended some great sessions. One of the highlights of the conference was the US Plastics Pack presentation of the awards, which attracted a crowd of around 1200 people. The event also had micro-presentations lasting one to two minutes, which allowed small companies to present their ideas quickly. Corey and Adam attended a recycling conversation featuring representatives from the Recycling Partnership, Eureka Recycling, Nestle, a sustainability consultant, and a PCR or Virgin plastic manufacturer. The discussion focused on why sustainability goals were not being met and the roles that different stakeholders could play. Adam asked a question about the impact of labels and RFID on recycling, which led to more follow-up from the panel. Corey had lunch with a group of people discussing repair and sustainability, which led to a conversation about packaging. They also met with the R Cup people who were doing reusable cups at music venues and sports venues. Adam met with Nashil Sony, who's building a whole startup around software and pet recycling, and was able to make connections for him with some other folks. The conference had a pre-competition collaborative energy, with companies like Mattel, Hasbro, Lego, Coke, and Pepsi working together on sustainability initiatives. They discussed standardizing packaging and using technology like near-infrared handheld scanners to test materials for recycling. Overall, Corey and Adam found the conference to be informative and a great opportunity to learn from people who are smarter than them. **Guest Introduction**​In this episode of the Sustainable Packaging Podcast with Cory Connors, Cory and Adam are coming to us live from Circularity 23 in Seattle. Cory and Adam are two of the most influential voices in sustainable packaging and they share their experiences and insights from the conference.​**Overview**​In this episode, Cory and Adam discuss their experience at Circularity 23, the largest circular economy event in North America. They share their highlights from the conference, including the US Plastics Pact presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair. They also discuss the importance of making new connections and the role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goals.​**Timestamped Chapter Summary**​- 0:00:00 - Introduction- 0:00:27 - Overview of the conference- 0:01:11 - Highlights from the conference- 0:02:30 - The US Plastics Pack presentation- 0:03:41 - The recycling conversation- 0:05:15 - The impact of labels and RFID on recycling- 0:06:38 - The importance of repair and sustainability- 0:07:35 - Making new connections- 0:08:20 - The role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goals​**Links and Resources**​- US Plastics Pack- Eureka Recycling- Myers Printing- iFixit​**Quotable**​- "It's been a tiring day as I think most conferences get on day two. Lots of great sessions, lots of great people, lots of great energy." - Adam- "One of the best conferences I've ever been to. So well put together. The food is amazing, the people are amazing, and the press are the best." - Corey- "I love being able to listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen, get a different perspective on why our goals are not being met and the roles that we look at, that the goals aren't being met and the roles that we can all play." - Adam- "It was just quick and it felt like TikTok sessions." - Corey​**Social Media Handles**​- Corey Connors: @coreyconnors- Adam: @adampackaging​**Conclusion**​Corey and Adam share their insights from Circularity 23 and the importance of making new connections and playing a role in achieving sustainability goals. They highlight the US Plastics Pack presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair as some of the key highlights of the conference. With the right mindset and collaboration, achieving sustainability goals is possible.Guest IntroductionIn this episode of the Sustainable Packaging Podcast with Cory Connors, Cory and Adam are coming to us live from Circularity 23 in Seattle. Cory and Adam are two of the most influential voices in sustainable packaging and they share their experiences and insights from the conference.OverviewIn this episode, Cory and Adam discuss their experience at Circularity 23, the largest circular economy event in North America. They share their highlights from the conference, including the US Plastics Pact presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair. They also discuss the importance of making new connections and the role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goals.Timestamped Chapter Summary* 0:00:00 - Introduction* 0:00:27 - Overview of the conference* 0:01:11 - Highlights from the conference* 0:02:30 - The US Plastics Pack presentation* 0:03:41 - The recycling conversation* 0:05:15 - The impact of labels and RFID on recycling* 0:06:38 - The importance of repair and sustainability* 0:07:35 - Making new connections* 0:08:20 - The role that everyone can play in achieving sustainability goalsLinks and Resources* US Plastics Pack* Eureka Recycling* Myers Printing* iFixitQuotable* "It's been a tiring day as I think most conferences get on day two. Lots of great sessions, lots of great people, lots of great energy." - Adam* "One of the best conferences I've ever been to. So well put together. The food is amazing, the people are amazing, and the press are the best." - Corey* "I love being able to listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen, get a different perspective on why our goals are not being met and the roles that we look at, that the goals aren't being met and the roles that we can all play." - Adam* "It was just quick and it felt like TikTok sessions." - CoreySocial Media Handles* Cory Connors: @corygated* Adam: @packagingpastorConclusionCorey and Adam share their insights from Circularity 23 and the importance of making new connections and playing a role in achieving sustainability goals. They highlight the US Plastics Pack presentation, the recycling conversation, and the roundtable discussion on repair as some of the key highlights of the conference. With the right mindset and collaboration, achieving sustainability goals is possible.[TRANSCRIPT][0:00:00] (Adam): Hey, you are live so we don't our audio. Oh, testing. Guys, listen, it's been a long day, the audio is not working, laptops aren't getting hooked up to the internet. We're rolling on the cell phone. Coming to you live from circularity with the band end.[0:00:27] (Corey): Backstage. All access.[0:00:29] (Adam): Yeah, look at that, all access pass speaker with the DJ press. Anyway, apparently we're live now. My iPad hasn't for me.[0:00:41] (Corey): Corey, we did it, we're exhausted. I still have another half day tomorrow but it's been an awesome time. I'm so thankful that you were here. We met a lot of great people and connected with people a lot for the first time, which is not normal for us usually we know most people, but to make some new connections, some brand new people, brand new companies, very excited, no doubt.[0:01:11] (Adam): Yeah, it's been a tiring day as I think most conferences get on day two. Lots of lots of coffee being consumed by myself and lots of great sessions, lots of great people continued, lots of great energy. Corey is going to be here tomorrow. I'm on a flight back home to Salt Lake City so if you are able to watch us right now, that's great. I know it's like 07:00 on the east coast, hopefully you're not watching us, hopefully you're spending time with your family and you see this on replay and you decide to comment on or whatever. But corey.[0:01:49] (Corey): What's?[0:01:49] (Adam): Maybe a highlight or two from the day. I'm going to pretend like we have a microphone. This microphone doesn't work. But Corey, why don't you talk about the copy that you don't really have to pretend.[0:02:08] (Corey): We got to experience the largest crowd I've ever seen in my career. I think it was probably 1200 people listening to the US Plastics packed presentation of the awards up on the 7th floor. Did you go up there for anything?[0:02:29] (Adam): Wow.[0:02:30] (Corey): We've been saying that there's four floors of presentation there's four floors and seven years ago.[0:02:38] (Adam): Yeah. Is what I think is the way it is.[0:02:41] (Corey): That was Abraham Lincoln.[0:02:44] (Adam): Oh, never mind.[0:02:45] (Corey): Yeah, nothing to do with nothing to do.[0:02:47] (Adam): I mean it could be well, nice.[0:02:49] (Corey): Hat, he liked boxes. But to watch Emily Pauldo and the team from the US plastics Pack present percent and to see the award winners which I have got the honor to interview them all yesterday for my podcast. Sustainable Packaging podcast with Corey Connors was amazing and to get to see that many people and I think what was cool in addition to that, John SME and team at Circularity 23, they had these micro presentations like two minutes or a minute and a half and I just thought that was really cool. They let small companies come up and present, this is our idea, this is what we're doing.[0:03:41] (Corey): Here's why it's great, here's why it's important. And it was just quick and it felt like TikTok sessions and I think this is a lot of the problem with these advances. Some of the presentations can be very long and very uninteresting and uninformed and.[0:04:01] (Adam): Not ours when we present the best. No, we're clearly right, Chris.[0:04:05] (Corey): Yeah, we're perfect. But no, most have been incredible here and one of the best conferences I've ever been to. So well put together. The food is amazing, the people are amazing, and the press are the best.[0:04:21] (Adam): I think clearly the social media influencers are top their game.[0:04:25] (Corey): Two of the best in the building.[0:04:27] (Adam): Yeah. Obviously, Corey and I got to sit in on a recycling conversation. It was the recycling partnership, eureka Recycling. Chastity from Nestle was there. There was a sustainability consultant and then a PCR or Virgin plastic manufacturer, I believe, and that was fantastic. I love being able to listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen, get a different perspective on why our goals are not being met and the roles that we look at, that the goals aren't being met and the roles that we can all play.[0:05:15] (Adam): I thought that was a really well done, well worth it. 1 hour of time. I got to ask a question about the impact that labels and RFID might have and actually have gotten a lot of more follow up from that from the panel. So we're going to be kate Davenport is up at Eureka Recycling in Minneapolis. And so Myers Printing, where you should go for all of your printed packaging and label needs. We're going to go see the facility and check out what they're doing and just get an even more better understanding of what our products actually do in the recycling stream.[0:05:58] (Adam): And then what was really cool I don't know. We haven't connected since then. But at lunch, were you at a table with a, like, a roundtable discussion?[0:06:09] (Corey): I met no, I was at a table, but eating. But no, it was rectangle.[0:06:18] (Adam): So I went into a room and they had these table tents, and it was like, here's the conversation. So mine was this guy from I fixit, I fixit.com these guys. And I thought, what am I doing here? Why did I sit down?[0:06:36] (Corey): What happened here?[0:06:38] (Adam): There are people who are there. And I was like, you all are so smart. And what was really cool about it was just listening to why repair is sustainable and why that is struggling to get traction. And then they started asking me questions about packaging, and I was like, thank you. I can finally right.[0:06:58] (Corey): Something in mind.[0:06:58] (Adam): I don't know about electronics recycling, right. But it was a phenomenal conversation, one that I was not prepared for. I sat down to eat, and all of a sudden, I'm in the middle of the repair manifesto conversation. But it was fantastic. I learned a lot. It's one of my favorite things about hosting the podcast, is just being able to learn from people who are smarter than me. So if you've been on my podcast?[0:07:22] (Corey): No.[0:07:23] (Adam): You're smarter than me, except for Corey. We're unequal. We're equally at the bottom. But we're most smarter than Avalio. Yeah.[0:07:31] (Corey): Sorry, Avalio. When you're not here, we get to make fun of you.[0:07:35] (Adam): It's quite true. But yeah. So, day two, I thought I was only in the one session and then had some stuff with work that I was doing. And then I had the roundtable lunch. And then subsequently I met with the R Cup people who were doing Reusable cups at music venues and sports venues. And that was fascinating. I'm super excited to keep following what they're doing. They've got a partnership with you, too.[0:08:03] (Adam): I met with my friend Nashil Sony, who's building a whole startup around software and pet recycling, was able to make connections for him with some other folks. And it was just a very dynamic day.[0:08:16] (Corey): I connected with him. He said, Adam said that I should talk to you. And I said, okay.[0:08:21] (Adam): Yes.[0:08:22] (Corey): Great.[0:08:22] (Adam): Perfect. Yeah. That's kind of what this whole thing is about. I heard a term I'd never heard before, which was and then I've forgotten it. Pre competitive or pre competition. So there was somebody there from, like, Mattel, and then he said, yes, we would love to work with Hasbro or Lego on these sustainability initiatives. Or it was mentioned about Coke and Pepsi working together on sustainability initiatives.[0:08:53] (Adam): There's very much that kind of energy here. This pre competition collaborative. Let's work on some stuff.[0:09:05] (Corey): What if packaging was standardized? What if Coke and Pepsi had the same shape bottle? Why not? We know what the label means. We know that the label differentiates it.[0:09:15] (Adam): It's clearly the most important. I mean, everyone loves labels.[0:09:17] (Corey): Yeah, labels are great.[0:09:19] (Adam): If you love labels, you should buy.[0:09:20] (Corey): Them from Label Company. Let me know.[0:09:22] (Adam): Yeah. Wow.[0:09:25] (Corey): It's a fantastic concept, and I think it's a part of the future.[0:09:30] (Adam): Yeah. The other booth that I saw that I actually made a TikTok video about. Was it B-A-M-F? That's bad. No, that's not. They're one of the largest companies in the world and I chemical Company. The chemical company. But they have a little spin off where they have near infrared handheld scanners that any company can have or really any person could have. It's $120 a month. You can take the scanner and you can scan your material and see if it's going to pass the near infrared technology when it goes to the murph.[0:10:10] (Adam): And so I thought that was pretty BAMF when it comes to recycling. Yes, exactly. No, that was really cool, though, to see that there's technology that's available for regular people.[0:10:27] (Corey): Well, and as a packaging supplier, aurora would be very interested in that. We want to be able to show our customers that, look, here is a test that says this material will get recycled. What a cool concept. What an important concept to be able to standardize that to test it, to show the result, and it produces a graph and really cool.[0:10:55] (Adam): Yeah.[0:10:56] (Corey): And what he was showing us was how this Htpe bottle had a shrink graph sleeve and those materials were different and the scanner could tell the difference between the two. Fascinating.[0:11:12] (Adam): Yeah. I thought that it was super informative, and that's kind of been the general feel. It's just like, let's help each other, let's inform one another because this is a conference about Circularity, and GreenBiz has done a phenomenal job, incredible with it. It's like the Marcos Pizza of conferences.[0:11:33] (Corey): It might be. Why do I keep the Pizza Hut?[0:11:37] (Adam): Bring up Marcos Pizza. Well, it doesn't look like anybody wanted to comment, and that's okay.[0:11:42] (Corey): That's all right. We're fine, if you will.[0:11:44] (Adam): We do. And if you catch us on replay, please feel free to comment and we'll try to jump in and answer anything. Corey, any last Monday?[0:11:52] (Corey): Yeah, we'll see you Monday. Stay tuned for four podcast episodes, at least from this. Actually, it'll be five by the time I'm done. And then we did our live yesterday. So thank you all for listening and for participating in our content. We truly appreciate it. We love what we do.[0:12:10] (Adam): And if someone who is here from Spec right, watching this, I got a ton of questions about Spec right. You should be at circularity. There's a lot of people ask me questions I'm like, I mean, I know enough to be dangerous, but you got to talk to the people. There lots of data questions, lots of EPR questions. So. Adam laura matthew ah. Simon hyman. Yeah, we'll make sure that you get out here next year, but it was great. Thanks, everybody.[0:12:36] (Adam): Appreciate it. And like I said, feel free to drop some comments in and we will do our best to answer them. Goodbye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.packagingisawesome.com/subscribe

I met the Yonder Oak Wood team back in March to discover how this landscape will be transformed for people and wildlife, and what designing a new wood involves. The vision is to attract plentiful wildlife with healthy habitat that offers refuge from weather extremes and fights climate change. The local community has been involved from the off - volunteer Sally Burton joins us to explain what she gets up to, how excited everyone is about the future and what volunteering means to her. We also hear of efforts to make the site more sustainable, from re-usable fences to tree guard trials, and I get my hands dirty planting a tree. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to, well, the wonderfully named Yonder Oak Wood. And although it's called a wood, it's not really a wood yet. This is a very exciting project, but it's in the very early stages of creation. It's near Exmouth in Devon. The Woodland Trust plans on planting, I think something like 13,000 trees there, creating a new environment for nature and wildlife to bounce back. Sounds a great place to go, I'm going to meet a few people there. First off, though, is my contact at the Woodland Trust today, Rachel Harries. Rachel: So this site is Yonder Oak Wood, it's not quite a wood yet, as you can see, but the Woodland Trust bought it in March last year with the aim of creating, creating a new wooded landscape here. So it's 54 hectares, we think it is the biggest woodland creation site that the Trust has done in the South West in in 20 years, so 54 hectares, that's equivalent to about 100 football pitches, and it sits on the sort of two sides of a hidden valley, just a couple of miles inland from the South Coast of Devon. So where we're stood, we can actually see out to the mouth of the Exe estuary, to Dawlish and and possibly to Torquay there as well. Adam: I I think you can just see the estuary over there can't you, just beyond that last bunch of trees is that right? Rachel: You absolutely can, yeah, you absolutely can. And actually the other day when I was here, I saw a white bird fly over that was an egret that was obviously based in the estuary, so really exciting. Adam: And why, now this site, I happen to know is, it it's quite important because of the anniversary and just explain to me, explain to me a little bit about that. Rachel: That's right. Last year was the 50th anniversary of the Woodland Trust and the first site that our founder Ken Watkins ever bought was in Devon. So it's really emblematic that we are now creating a new woodland, probably I think it's about 30 miles away as the crow flies from the Avon Valley Woods where we were started. But we're now creating a new woodland in the county of our birthplace, which is incredibly exciting, and we wanted to create something that would have meaning for local people and it would like, it would be tied into the local environment, so we did things like we looked at the name of the stream, we looked at old field names and we came up with a shortlist of names that we could then offer out to the local community and ask them which one, which one they wanted and what they wanted to call this new site. And one of the field names was Yonder Oak Park. And that's really quite special because as you look across the site, you can see all these incredible old oak trees over yonder, off in the distance. So I have to admit that was my favourite but we let the community choose and they voted for Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Right well you're gonna take me on a little walk around here, so just explain to me a little bit about what we're gonna see. Rachel: OK. Well, we're starting here on a sloping field that has old oak trees dotted about the landscape. Some of these are a couple of hundred years old and there's one in particular which we can see just off in the distance, which is one of my, one of my favourites that is standing almost on on stilts. And the stilts are actually its roots that would have once been embedded in a Devon bank, which is a sort of a solid hedgerow that we find in Devon that has trees planted on the top and the hedgerow and the bank has been taken away. So the tree now kind of stands about a metre above the height that it would have once been. Adam: Which one, I can't tell which one that is? Rachel: So can you see there's two in that field over there, we'll walk past it so we can have another look at it. Adam: Yes, I see that, I see that. OK, maybe my eyesight's not very good. So and this goes, these are currently separate fields and there's what a field and then a hedgerow, another field, then another hedgerow, then the tree supposedly on stilts and beyond that what looks like a solar panel farm. So is this the, what will be the new woodland all the way up to the solar panels? Rachel: We've worked to design a mixture of of habitats here, so we have about 5 different fields where we're doing much more intensive planting and that's what people would kind of imagine that would grow into what people would imagine a woodland would look like, but then in some of these other fields, so the field that we're stood in and a couple of other fields that you can kind of see off in the distance there, we're going to do a mix of open space, glades and groves. We'll plant some more of these kind of trees that will be allowed to to thrive and to spread on their own, but we'll also plant a mixture of of scrub and shrubs, so that's more lower growing trees, things like blackthorn, hawthorn dogrose, spindle, just to create a really good mix of habitats for all the birds and insects and bats that we, you know, we know are going to thrive here. Adam: And you, you've arranged for us to meet a a couple of people, haven't you? Rachel: Yeah. So we're going to be walking around with Paul Allen, he's our site manager and we're going to meet Sally Burton, who is one of our volunteers here. Adam: The weather's been kind to us so far, but it is a little nippy so we shouldn't keep them waiting. So do you wanna lead on and we'll go meet them. Rachel: Yes, let's go. Adam: And I'm told there there was some sea shantying going on here, which strikes me as odd because we're not, we're not in the middle of the sea or anything. So what's the story behind that? Rachel: Well, we're not far from the sea. We can see, we can see the, we can see the sea here. But we were contacted by a a group of local acapella singers who were inspired by what we're doing here and had decided to take some modern folk songs and to rewrite them to to reference the wood. So they came out one weekend and they sang to our to all of our planters, but we also talked a little bit about sea shanties, which I like the idea of becoming tree shanties. So they took a traditional sea shanty and they changed the lyrics. So we now have a song all about Yonder Oak Wood that we could sing along to. Adam: Great. And that we're going to hear that now from from you. So here's Rachel with her tree shanty. Is that right? No? Rachel *laughs* I don't think so. Adam: Do you have a recording of it? Rachel: I we do have a recording of it actually, yes. Adam: You never know. I don't know. Maybe a couple of teas or beers later, I might persuade you to sing. Alright. Brilliant, Rachel. Thank you very much. Rachel: Thank you. That's great. So here's Paul. He's the site manager and he's going to take us on a little walk down through Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Paul, thank you very much. Nice to see you. So you are the site manager. Paul: Hello there. I am. Yes, I'm responsible for turning these fields into a wild, wildlife rich area. Adam: OK. Well, go on. Let's lead on. We can have a chat about that. Brilliant. So yeah. So these are early days, Paul. I understand you you are responsible for designing the woodland. What does that actually involve? Paul: So really, I mean the the the first place you you start is is kind of kind of getting a sense of where the place is and what the place is and the the key bit here as we walk through it is you can see these big old oak trees and so we've based a lot of the design on that. So you can picture in the future lots more of these big old trees that will have lots of deadwood, lots of rot holes where birds can nest, and invertebrates burrow in. And the way we're kind of going to maintain it is we're we're going to put animals in and have low intensity grazing and then you kind of build in where the views are. Adam: I mean it must be really exciting because it can't be that often that you you get actually a green field or literally a greenfield site. But it's more or less bare. It's a plain piece of paper for you to design. That's quite, I mean, it's exciting, quite an honour, perhaps a little daunting? Paul: I've I've done probably 30 years of nature conservation and most of what you do is you take bits of habitat and you try and restore them, you try and protect them. You very rarely get a chance to actually create something brand spanking new. It is really phenomenally exciting for all of us, because if you think about it in the future, 100 years time, this place will be on maps. It will be on aerial photographs, you know so not only are we doing stuff that's great for wildlife and great for climate, we're effectively creating history as well, which is an awesome thing to be a part of. Adam: Yeah, so on the map it should say Yonder Oak Wood, brackets Paul Allen. *both laugh* Rachel's in the background going it's my wood, it's my wood. There might be a battle for the name. Paul: I'm I'm doing the design that says it from the sky it'll say Paul was here. *both laugh* Adam: Yes, yes very good, on Google Maps you can, you know, in 100 years time they'll go well how did those trees get planted in the shape of Paul? *laughs* So, OK, look, we're, we're, I've paused because we're at the we're at the top of the hill, almost. So what will happen around us? At the moment there are three or four trees in a line and not much else. So what will be here? Paul: So if you if you picture it in the future, what we'll have is we'll have a a, a a scattering of big old oak trees like we can see across the site and if you look over to our left, you can see an area that actually was the former quarry on the site. But if you look at it, you can see gorse that's currently in flower, even though we're in a freezing day at the beginning of March. And all of that is really good for wildlife. It's got lots of pollen and and nectar and lots of edge that birds and insects really like. And essentially what we're gonna get in the future is a combination of these big old oak trees and that lovely scrubby stuff that's great for wildlife. Adam: So here not too dense? Paul: Not too dense here no, not at all. Adam: So you get the view, you get a nice view and it's a mixed habitat. Paul: You, you, you, you get a view, it's it's very, we've we've constantly said we're creating a kind of a wooded landscape not a wood. Adam: Right. Well, we should carry on walking out, I have a tendency, just not to walk. I can see right over there some white poles which look like tree guards. Which does raise this issue I mean of how you're going to protect the trees because plastic tree guards have become quite controversial. Do you have a plan around that? Paul: Yeah, so we've got we've got, last year the the Woodland Trust decided that it would stop using the virgin plastic tree guards on its sites, which is actually a bit problematic because there aren't really any other types of tree guard that are commercially available at scale, so we're doing a combination of things here. The the main way is we're going to deer fence the site to stop the deer coming in and then we're also in some places we're trialling different types of tree tubes, so we're looking at one at the moment that bizarrely, has been made of sugar beet so it smells like golden syrup when you walk up to it, which is quite weird, and the ones you can see over there are actually recycled from another site. So we're, we're still, we're still using the tree guards that are effectively usable. Adam: Right. You talk about trying to protect the trees from deer. Which does raise the issue of other wildlife. I mean, clearly, we're gonna be hoping that wildlife get attracted into the area once this starts growing. At the moment though, have you have you seen much evidence of sort of new wildlife or any wildlife? Paul: It's still very early days yet. But we've seen lots of buzzards there's there's actually quite a lot of hornets nests in, in the existing oak trees. Adam: Is that a good thing? That sounds terrifying. Paul: *laughs* I I I personally I quite like it. Adam: You're pleased about that, OK. I think a lot of people always feel it takes generations and generations to plant trees. I know I have been at planting events where some young people have planted and said, oh, I think my children and my grandchildren might come to see this tree and then are surprised, actually, they come back to see their own tree and it grows quicker than they might expect. How quickly is this going to develop into anything recognisable as woodland? Paul: So I mean, with within 10 years, it will absolutely look like a woodland, although obviously still a young woodland and different tree species grow at different rates. So the silver birches and the rowans will actually be 6 foot high within two or three years potentially, whereas the the oak trees clearly will grow a lot slower. Adam: Wow, silver birch and rowan, 6 foot high in how long? Paul: Two or three years, if they if they take well. I mean it it it it varies depending on the soil type and all that sort of stuff, but they do grow very, very quickly. Adam: Blimey. And tell me a bit about how you got into all of this. I mean, I know you say you've been doing this a while. Paul: I started well I started off volunteering actually with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers a long time ago, and I got known by the Norfolk Wildlife Trust and rather randomly, I was having a beer in a pub and they went, do you fancy a job, and I went, alright then. Adam: Very good. So you've learnt on the job about trees? Paul: I I reeducated a few, some time ago but yeah a lot of it was learned as I went along. Adam: I've been very insulting, you've you've probably got a PhD in trees or something. But I do like the idea of, I got my job from a pub, I think I think that's always, I remember a story, so I don't know if you remember a film critic called Barry Norman, he always used to say, I I remember him telling a story, there's a pub around the BBC called, I think it's the White, White Horse or something like that. And he went when he was unemployed, he used to sit there pretending he was writing scripts so that BBC producers would come in for a lunchtime beer, which they don't do anymore, but they used to and they would go, oh, Barry, yeah there's a job we have and he wasn't working at all, he was just trying to be in the pub around and that's how he got his work, so that's clearly not just media, it's it's the tree world as well. Paul: It's it's it's very much very very clearly, a lot harder now than it was, because at that point in time, I guess nature conservation really wasn't a career. Adam: Yeah. We've come across a locked fence, but Paul has a key, there we are. There we are. Into the next next field. Ah, right away. Here's a very different type of fence, and I presume this is to keep the deer out. So first of all, massive fence, is this to keep the deer out? Paul: This is to keep the deer out. Yes, absolutely. And what will happen where we're standing, the hedgerow will creep out into the fence and obviously the wood that we're planting inside will also start to hide the fence. So the fence over time will disappear apart from the gateways. Adam: So I mean, there's a good 7 odd foot here between the hedgerow and the fence. You're saying that that hedgerow will naturally grow another 7 foot? Paul: Yep. So what what what we've got in this hedgerow, actually it's it's it's quite specific to this area is we've got a lot of a lot of small leaved elm and we've also got a lot of blackthorn in it and both of those sucker. So as as we've taken the the the intensive farming off the land the the shrubs will just sucker out and gradually spread into the field. Adam: And look, and we're standing by the main gate and there's a huge tree trunk here, which is holding the post. And I can see the bark coming off. Now is that is that deer trying to get in there do you think? Paul: No, that that's actually that's just part of the process of actually creating the post. Adam: Ohh, that's just that's just me being an idiot. OK, I thought I was being a clever nature detective *laughs* Paul: I mean what one of the one of the key bits about this fence though, is that that the Woodland Trust is now focusing very heavily on sustainability with everything it does. The, the, the reduction in use of plastic is one of those key bits. But these are sweet chestnut posts, so they there's no chemical preservatives in them or anything like that, and they're kind of the the the main posts at the corners, if you like, of the fence. And then we're using a metal fence with metal posts and and the idea is that when the trees have grown up after 20 years and they're no longer a threat from the deer, we can take this and reuse it elsewhere, so we're constantly thinking about that sustainability stuff all the time. Adam: Right. So we're in this more protected field. Which I can see has been laid out actually. Is this for the planting scheme, little posts and sort of lines of rope? Paul: Yeah. So one of the issues with going plastic free is it becomes very difficult to actually see what you've planted. Because if you look at here it just still looks like a field but actually there's somewhere in the region of well around 2 to 3000 trees already in there. Adam: Oh gosh, I didn't realise that. So yes, with the plastic safe, plastic guards on a tree you see these white telescopes sticking up all over the field, so there's thousands of trees here, we just can't see them. Right and a a lot of that has been planted by volunteers? Paul: We've had somewhere in the region of 400-500 members of the public come over four days, so we've got a a set of volunteers who have who've have have they've been brilliant actually, they've come and they've helped kind of manage all the public and they've helped work with the schools, they've helped us set out where the trees are going, we couldn't have done it without them at all. And here is one of our volunteers now, here's Sally. Adam: Brilliant. Alright, well, let's go over and chat to Sally. So Sally. Sally Burton. Hello. So I've heard lots of lovely things about you. So just tell me you're a volunteer, which in this context means what? Sally: Hello. That's nice. All sorts of things. I've helped this in during February with the public planting days and with the school planting days, helped children dig holes, some of the children are too small to get the spade in the ground very easily. I've planted quite a lot of trees myself. Adam: And why why did you get involved? Sally: I'd been looking for a while to volunteer for an organisation that does things outdoors and something a bit physical and so when the Woodland Trust appeared in the village hall I just went up and said do you need volunteers and they said yes please so I signed up straight away. Adam: And I mean, what does it offer you? Why is it a fun thing to do? Sally: I enjoy working with the other people. The staff are great and the other volunteers have been great fun. In fact, I've reconnected with someone I knew a few years ago and she's been helping up here as well, so that's been great. I like being outside, I love being outdoors. I don't mind about the weather. I like doing physical things and it's it's great to see, to make a difference. Adam: So yeah, so what what sort of difference do you feel you're making then? Sally: Well contributing to turning this basically what looks like an empty field into a forest. That's really amazing. People have been very excited about it. Lots of local people came up and planted on the public open days. Everyone's looking forward to being able to come up here and experience it themselves and enjoy the trees and the views obviously the views across the estuary and out to sea are beautiful. And there are lots of birds already. It's a very beautiful place. Adam: And so how much of your time does it actually take up? Sally: Well, during February and the beginning of March, quite a lot, I've been coming up for days, getting here about 8:15 and going home about 4 o'clock. Adam: Right. So why is that, why is that the the busy period? Sally: Because that's when the tree planting has been going on. Adam: First time you've ever planted a tree? Sally: I've planted a couple on my allotment, but certainly the first time I've planted on such a scale. Adam: Right. Have you kept count, how many trees are you in? Sally: No. Well, on one of the public planting days, I'd finished registering people and I planted 25 I kept count of those and on Wednesday this week, a school was in and when they cleared off, I finished planting the trees in their little area. And I think there was about 30 there. I'm not sure I lost count after about 12. Adam: There should be scouts or sort of brownie badges, shouldn't there, I'm I'm 100 tree-er, you know. Very good. Fantastic. Well, look, thank you very much. I can't believe this is the the the the field in which you've planted. Sally: It is, you can't see many of the trees. Adam: I I can't see any of the trees, what do you mean many of them. Ohh a couple yes. Sally: Across there you can see some with leaves on those are sessile oaks which were planted a little while ago, and they show up. Adam: Any of those yours? Sally: Possibly *laughs* They show up because of the leaves. But over there, most of the area there is planted. Adam: OK, brilliant. You're talking about planting, Rachel has appeared over the hill. She's brandishing a erm Sally: A spade. Adam: A spade *laughs* I forgot the name. You can see how ill equipped I am to do this. I forgot the name of what she's, so I think she's tempting us to go plant so let's go off. Adam: *coughs* Sorry, I'm already having a heart attack from the idea of physical exercise, I haven't done anything yet. OK, so we we have a spade and this is a virgin bit of land, no, no trees planted yet? Sally: No trees in this section yet. Adam: So I get the honour of planting the first tree. Sally: The first one. Adam: So you're gonna talk me through this and I'm gonna. Sally: So the first job... Adam: Oh yes alright, I'm already jumping ahead of myself. Sally: The first job is to screef? To screef the area... Adam: What what is what is screefing? Sally: ...which is where you do this to kick away the grass with your shoe to make a square or an area to get rid of the grass, doesn't have to be too big, not much wider than the blade of the spade, put the spade in there, and then don't lift it yet come round that side and make a square on that side. Yeah, cut it down. Then on that side... Adam: I feel I've hit the... Sally: One of the pebbles. And then the final side and then you could probably lever out a lump of turf. Adam: Then I can lift it out. Sally: OK, here's a tree. And we need to make sure when it's in the hole, the soil covers up to just above the top of the the highest root. So if we test that, that's not deep enough, so need to go deeper. Adam: It's not deep enough. Overall, I'm not doing particularly well I have to say. Sally: Let's have a look. That's looking good there. Adam: You think that's all right? Sally: Yeah, that's OK. So the next job is to crumble the soil. Adam: With our hands? Sally: With our hands, back into the hole, loose bits first. Adam: They didn't say I was actually gonna get my hands dirty. Sally: *laughs* And then if you've got any clods that have got grass on them make sure they go in with the grass facing down. Adam: Ok do you know why? Sally: So that the grass will die and then it won't be in competition with the tree as the grass uses a lot of the water. Adam: It's a bit leaning a bit, isn't it? Sally: It is a bit, let's push some more soil in. Adam: You see, it's fine now, in 20 years time, someone will come and go, who the hell planted that tree, it's at 45 degrees! Sally: Then the last job is you stand up. Adam: Yeah, stand up. Sally: And use your heel to press the soil down to push out all the gaps so that it doesn't dry out if it's sunny. Adam: And how compact, we don't want to make it too compact. Sally: Quite firm, quite firm. Adam: Yeah? Do you know what I don't, I feel that's leaning, that's no good. Sally: Don't worry, it'll straighten itself up. And the final thing is you do the tug test. Where you just get hold of it and just pull it gently. And if it stays where it is, then it's planted properly. Adam: I name this tree, well and truly planted. Sally: Congratulations. Adam: Thank you very much. Very good. That's brilliant. Well, I have to say although me and Sally were planting, Rachel and Paul were looking were looking on. So Paul's still here, how did I do? Paul: Well, let me just check, shall I? Adam: *laughs* You're doing the tug test. Paul: It's it's been really fun actually with with, with the the the public when you come and kind of just check it, you can see them all hold their breath to make sure they're doing it right. Adam: And it comes out *laughs* Is it alright? Paul: No, it's grand. Absolutely brilliant. Dog rose it, it's a little bit crooked, but you know dog rose will naturally straighten itself up. Adam: Will it correct itself? Paul: Yeah and it's kind of you can already see it's a bit of a straggly thing and it'll do its thing and it'll be fine. Adam: Fantastic. What is your sense, really, of of what this might be in the future and how exciting is that for you? Paul: I think in the future, you know, we're we're we're we've got something here that at the very beginning that is gonna be hopefully really important for wildlife and that most of the design is about trying to get as much wildlife here as possible because we're close to the pebblebed heaths it will it will act as a little bit of a refuge in the heat as potentially the climate heats up in the future and that's all really brilliant. And then the other exciting bit is the fact that we've started from the beginning with people involved. That, that, that scenario, but when you look in the future, the you know the the trees that we're planting today are going to be like these big old oak trees in 3-4 hundred years time that when you get your head around it is really quite amazing. And these trees and this wood will be on maps in in the future, and you know, we're creating history, we're changing landscapes and it's all such a a positive thing to be involved in. Adam: That is amazing that in 3-4 hundred years there'll be a woodland here, the history of who planted it, the history of us being here today will be lost. They won't know who planted these trees perhaps, they won't know the story, but the trees will be here. They'll be there, they'll tell their own story in the future. It's an amazing thing to be part of isn't it. Paul: Yeah and you know if if you think about how many times do you get to do something that will still be here in three, four, 500 years time? That's just incredible. Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you and don't have any idea of where to look, do go to the Woodland Trust website and its woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, so that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Did you know we have rainforest right here in the UK? Visit magical Bovey Valley Woods in Devon with us as we walk alongside a babbling brook and over a Tolkien-esque stone bridge among trees dripping with lichens and mosses and learn all about it. Site manager David Rickwood describes the features of UK rainforest, some of the fantastic species that live here and why this habitat is so important as he takes us on a lichen hunt, shows us an otter holt and much more. Find out what a rapid rainforest assessment involves with Tom, and meet Eleanor who is working hard to create a powerful alliance to protect rainforest in the South West. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees, for people, for wildlife.  Adam: When most people think about rainforests, they're imagining the tropical, densely overgrown jungles of, well, mainly of our imagination, because so few of us have actually been there. But what they don't think about is the rainforests of places as close to home as a Devonshire cream tea. And that's what's so shocking because Devon and some other parts of the UK have in fact some of the most important temperate rainforests the world knows. And it's shocking not only because it's a bit of a surprise that we have these rainforests, but we've not really been taking much care of them. The ecologist Dominic DellaSala said that today's European rainforests are mere fragments, a reminder of a bygone era when rainforests flourished and they're now barely hanging on as contemporary rainforest relics. Well, I'm off to see, well, I hate to describe it as one of those relics, but one of those jewels that remains with us in Devon to see what a British rainforest looks like, why it's important, and what's fun about it.   Well, I've come to Bovey Valley Woods, which, unsurprisingly, I suppose, lies in the valley of the River Bovey on the South East side of Dartmoor National Park, and rather close to Newton Abbot. You might have heard of that. There are lots of trees and there are lots of wildlife here, brimming with spring migrant birds, so we might come across the Dartford warbler, the brightly coloured kingfisher or the pied flycatcher, which arrives from Africa each spring to breed. We might come across some rather tiny hazel dormice, which I understand are here as well. I'm not here at night, but apparently if you are, there are lots of bats which hunt on the wing. And of course there's the Dartmoor ponies, which graze in the wildflower meadows around here, but we are planning on heading into the wood itself.  David: My name is David Rickwood and I work for the Woodland Trust and I'm a site manager here at Bovey Valley Woods.   Adam: Well, just describe to me sort of what we're looking out at now. We can, I can hear a stream somewhere nearby. So there's clearly that down in the valley, but describe what, what's going on around us.  David: Yeah. So we're on the eastern edge of Dartmoor. There are 9 river systems that rise on, on Dartmoor. They carve these kind of deep valley systems off the edge of the moor. So a lot of people, when they imagine Dartmoor, they're thinking about the big open expanses of the moorland, but actually all of these river valley systems are where the concentrations of ancient woodland and temperate rainforests sit. You know, they have this kind of ambient temperature all year round, so we don't have these extremes of heat and cold. And they provide those kind of perfect conditions really.  Adam: Yeah. I mean, when one thinks of Dartmoor, it is those, those bare sort of rather dramatic landscapes. But you were saying hidden in the creases around those are these, these rich temperate rainforest environments.  David: Absolutely. You see so although people think of the open moorland of Dartmoor and the high moor, actually, a lot of that biodiversity and a lot of the diversity is around the edges in these wooded valleys. So woodland bird assemblages is particularly important in this part of the world, so species like pied flycatcher, wood warbler, invertebrates like blue ground beetle, and, of course, all of these lichens, mosses and liverworts that are, you know, in these sort of niches in these temperate rainforests.  Adam: Right, so we've jumped into this discussion about rainforests. And we're in a temperate rainforest, but I'm still not sure what a temperate rainforest is, because it conjures up this image, sort of, of jungle, doesn't it, of hacking back dense forestry, of the Amazon, of sort of Victorian explorers, that's not the environment we're in, which leads, I think, me to a confusion, I think lots of people are confused about what it is we're talking about. How would you define a a rainforest?  David: OK, so in visual terms, a lot of the trees around here have what they call epiphytic plants. There's things growing on the trees, there's things growing on the rocks. There's things growing on other plants and you get this lush abundance of particularly mosses.  Adam: Yeah. So sorry, the epiphytic, it means it's living on it, but it's not actually taking its energy from that. It's quite a beneficial relationship?  David: Yeah. So if you were to go and look at a tree branch in, say, central London, you're not going to see it carpeted in mosses and lichen. So here the air quality is very high and so you get this abundance of of plants growing on other plants. And because it's so wet, moist and damp throughout the year, those plants can survive actually quite high in the canopy.  Adam: So the sorts of things that you're seeing in a rainforest are lichens. The trees aren't particularly different from trees you'd see elsewhere are they? The oaks and all of that. So it is, lichens are a big identifier and the amount of rain presumably?   David: Absolutely yeah. So we're we're talking about sort of 200 days a year where rainfall is occurring in some form that might actually be cloud, just wet mist, not necessarily pouring down with rain. And we're also talking about rainfall in excess of say 12 to 1400 millimetres a year.  Adam: And we're very lucky that we're in a rainforest and it's not raining. Well, it's lucky for me. So now this is a tell me about this piece of woodland itself.  David: And we're right on the edge of the moorland. And so the woodland here is gradually creeping out onto the edge of the moor, and it's spread out from these kind of core areas in the valley. Now, that's brilliant in terms of renaturalising the landscape. But actually it can be quite problematic for some of the species in temperate rainforests, so in particular on this site here we've got lots of very old veteran trees and ancient trees that grew in a landscape that was a bit more open, had a lot more light. And it's those trees that often have some of these really key species assemblages on base rich bark or what they call dry bark communities. So it's all quite niche in terms of the conversation. But those trees are really the stars in this valley and so whilst we're kind of managing the woodland here, we need to give, you know, conscious effort to kind of manage around some of those key areas.  Adam: So look, let's go off into the woodland, but just to tell tell me a bit about what we're gonna see the plan for the day.  David: OK. So the plan for the day is we're going to just walk down this track here and we're going to drop down to a place called Hisley Bridge and that crosses the River Bovey. And that in itself is a very enchanting and beautiful place, and I think probably some of this mystery around temperate rainforest will start to fall into place when you see that.  Adam: Well I tell you what, let's go, let's go off before we, before we go off on that adventure just, just pause for a moment to listen to that babbling brook. So we're talking about this rainforest in recovery or trying to build a rainforest here almost. How delicate is this environment?  David: It's interesting, I think probably in the past five or ten years, I think we've become increasingly aware, particularly through working with partners like Plantlife, actually how vulnerable these sites are and, and how the changing climate is going to be a real threat to sites like this. And whilst we're doing our best in terms of managing the site and trying to restore it and trying to create the right kind of conditions, there are some aspects about climate that we cannot manage. And so resilience is really this much sought after objective and I think on a site like this, it provides an interesting template because over the past 100 years this site has kind of spread out into the wider landscape. That expansion has created an element of resilience for us.  Adam: I'm not sure I fully understand, you're saying there is some resilience because of the expansion of it, but well, how does that create resilience?  David: So things like lichens, so so this, this site in particular is really important for lichens and Hisley Wood on the other side of the river is probably one of a handful of sites in England. As this woodland has expanded, it's allowed some of those species to actually move into the wider landscape. So instead of there maybe being 3 or 4 oak trees with a particular species here, there might be 100 oak trees with those species.  Adam: So the fact you've got more of them makes the whole thing more resilient, if something happens to one, it's not a disaster. Understood. So given, my feet are very wet, I I need new boots. Just just tell you if I'm grimacing, it's nothing to do with you. Oh, I was going to talk to you, but look at this. That is a bridge straight out of The Hobbit! Just, this is extraordinary! Tell me about that.  David: So this here is a historic bridge that would have provided the access to Boveycombe farmstead. So Boveycombe farmstead probably is mediaeval in origin, but the the structure that there's now is abandoned.  Adam: This is I mean just describe it, it's it's made of rocks and it looks so haphazardly done. It's straight out of, you do it in a film, isn't it? It's very high up, very slumped down. It is absolutely beautiful. I'm going to insist I take a photo of you on it. And and it's a lovely flowing river right underneath it as well.   David: Yeah so this is the River Bovey and about 200, 300 hundred metres upstream there's a confluence of the River Bovey and the Becka Brook. And these are sort of torrent rivers so they go up and down really quickly with the rainfall. So this area here and the bridge, in fact, at times becomes an island because the river comes up so high.  Adam: What where we are now, underwater?  David: Yeah so if you look at all of these stones, they're all water washed and you can see the sand from the riverbed that's been washed out here.  Adam: Oh, I can. Yeah, I can over there. It's amazing.  David: So coming here, you know, particularly in the autumn last year, November, December or the late autumn when we had a lot of rain yeah this was kind of underwater at this point. But these rivers are really important, or really important for things like salmon, spawning salmon, sea trout, yeah. So these, it's these kind of rivers that really would have had an abundance of salmon and sea trout in the past.  Adam: Do you still get some?  David: Yeah, we still get some now. And interestingly, even though it was super dry last July, the salmon numbers were the best they've been for probably 5 or 10 years.  Adam: I have many things to ask you, but we are gonna have to take a pause here as I take a photo. OK. Yeah. So the salmon, what other sort of wildlife have we got here?  David: So I don't if you can just look across the river there, but there's an oak tree and underneath the oak tree, the root plate has been hollowed out by the river.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that. Yeah, it almost looks like there's, it's nothing supporting that tree.  David: Well, interestingly it does flex up and down, but that actually is an otter holt. So the otters move through this area on a regular basis and we've got a great little bit of footage actually of a mother with two kits in there and they're in there for a brief while. But these rivers are really good and things like otters are a really good sign that the fish population's good. So there'll be dippers on the river here, kingfishers, grey wagtails...  Adam: I, I got distracted by the beautiful bridge, but it's all, what I wanted to ask you about, this is such a sort of, environment on the edge that you're trying to protect, but at the same time it's Woodland Trust policy to encourage engagement, people to visit. In this particular area and this particular circumstance, is that a very difficult decision because actually you're going, hold on a second, you do want people to engage. On the other hand, this is an environment which really needs to be left alone for a while. Do you feel that tension at all?  David: Yeah, that's, that is an ongoing issue and so, for example here, one of the things we try to discourage, and we do that by just felling trees or putting in what you might describe as natural barriers, is we try and discourage some access to the river in certain areas. For example, like dogs, so dogs and the otter holt etc is not a great mix. And then you've got species like dipper that are nesting in these tiny little, really, balls of fern and grass along the edges here. And it's very, very easy for both a person, let alone a dog, to just flip those chicks out of that nest.  Adam: A black Labrador just dipping into the river there. I mean there, there's this sense of, you know, sort of called honey pot, sort of attractions and that was an issue I think, particularly in Dartmoor, over lockdown, wasn't it, where it's, sort of places became overwhelmed and I suppose again there's a tension, isn't there on the one hand, they can get overwhelmed. On the other hand, if you manage that well it drags people to the big, famous place and leaves the quieter places on their own. So it's a 2 sided coin. Do you think that's a, a good argument or not? You're smiling at me, almost going, no, no, it's, talking rubbish, no.  David: No, on the contrary, I think we have got to learn to manage it. And I think there's a number of aspects to that. I think we can try and draw people away from areas that we consider to be more sensitive. I think we need to engage people and try and broaden everybody's understanding of what's important about these places because the more people that appreciate them, love them and understand some of the nuance, and it is nuance, the more likely you are to be able to protect these places in the future and you know, for them to be sustained.  Adam: We've got a lot of travelling to do and not much time, so let's cross the bridge and you're taking me to some, some lichen. Oh, God, I'm just tripping over there, OK, right. We're we're we're going lichen hunting.   David: We are going to go lichen hunting. Although this isn't actually the best example, but there you go. Can you see these? There are these little teeth.   Adam: Little teeth underneath the lichen, and so that's why that's called dog lichen.   David: Yeah, and that's, it's part of a group of lichens that that behave in that way and they use those to actually attach itself to the moss or the rock.  Adam: That's not the nicest lichen I've seen, it looks very crumbly to me.   David: It looks a bit dry  Adam: It does look a bit dry, is that how it's meant to look?  David: Well you know, obviously we've had a very long dry spell.  Adam: Now I've just picked up a stick and this is covered in the lichen I love, but what is that? Do you know what, do you know what that's called? Now you see, I'm sorry I've embarrassed you.  David: No, no.   Adam: No don't worry about it, you don't have to know every bit of lichen.  David: No, it's palma... something or other, parmelia that's it.  Adam: It's parmelia, parmelia you see the noises are from his lichen advisors. Parmelia, I think it's so pretty. It's nicer than jewellery or something, you know, I think that's very nice. So OK. So we're heading down the other bank of the river and where are you taking me Dave?  David: Well, we're going to head down to a meadow that was cleared of conifer about 20 years ago, and so that's where part of this site has been restored. But on the way, we're going to have a look at a big ash tree and an oak tree that overhangs the river and that has a particular type of lichen called the lungwort growing on it.  Adam: Horrible name the lungwort. And was that, tell me if this is true, that, was it the Victorians who gave them these names, oh no actually it would have been before that, wouldn't it? Because it looked like an organ and they thought it, therefore, it was medicinal. Oh, well, it looks like a lung, therefore, if you've got a lung disease, you should eat that.  David: Yeah so that's exactly what, what it was. So this one looks like the inside of the lung, so it looks almost like the alveoli of the inside and people thought it was some kind of medicinal kind of treatment for any kind of ailment.  Adam: We should tell people don't eat this stuff.  David: No, don't eat it and certainly don't cut it or pick it, because it really is quite a rare species.  Adam: And that's this?  David: Yeah so there's, there's, there's several little pieces on this tree here.  Adam: I must be careful because I'm right by the river holding my phone, my recorder and if you hear a big splash, that'll be me going into the river, right? Yeah. Also I don't want to tread on all the lichens. Yeah, go on.  David: It's this one here. Which is looking a bit dry and crusty at the moment. So this is the, this is the lungwort. But if you look carefully this is an ash tree and this ash tree actually is dying.   Adam: I was going to say is this ash dieback?  David: Yeah so this is one of the trees that really will probably succumb to ash dieback in due course, but this one, thankfully, is leaning into this really big oak tree next door and the lungwort has managed actually to migrate across onto the oak. Can you see there's some small fragments here? And further up there's more fragments. So this is where potentially the loss of 1 species may be quite significant for the for the lichens that are growing on it.  Adam: And do you get involved? Do you give it a bit of a helping hand and sort of pick one up and put it over on the oak? Does, is that a thing that happens?  David: So we haven't done here, but that kind of translocation approach is being practised in some areas, particularly where the sites are almost pure ash. So this site here, we've got a range of species that lungwort can probably actually grow on. So we probably don't need to go down that route yet, but on some sites it's really critical. So they are translocating it.  Adam: I love that, I go ‘pick it up and put it down' and you very neatly go ‘that's called translocation', but you did it politely, so you didn't make me sound an idiot, and I tell you what I can't, I can't, I want a photo of the lungwort, but I'm, I can't come over that close. I'm going to fall in, so I'll give you my phone, and you can take a picture. That way I won't be climbing all over the place. Well, joining us with our band of merry men and women is actually someone who's responsible for a lot of work behind the scenes and actually bringing people together to make projects like this, this rejuvenation of this temperate rainforest possible.  Eleanor: So I'm Eleanor Lewis and I am the South West partnership lead for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: I know one of the big problems with these projects is that the Woodland Trust can't, perhaps doesn't even want to do them by themselves, so actually bringing in local communities, other organisations is super important.  Eleanor: Yeah, absolutely. I think the enormity of the kind of crises we face in terms of kind of climate change and biodiversity and nature just mean that no single organisation can do it on their own. And we can be so much more powerful and have far greater impact if we join together and create kind of partnerships and work at a landscape scale. So that's a fundamental part of my role really is identifying those kind of opportunities and working with other organisations to basically amplify all of our kind of organisational objectives. So at the moment we're seeking to kind of establish an alliance for the South West rainforest, so that's everyone from kind of Devon Wildlife Trust, Somerset Wildlife Trust, the National Trust and then you've got kind of Plantlife, RSPB, there's too many kind of to name, but a really kind of good mix of environmental kind of charities, but also those kind of policy makers. So we've been having conversations with Natural England and the Forestry Commission.  Adam: So what are you trying to get out of that association?  Eleanor: I think there's a number of different things, so there is already an existing alliance in Scotland, the Alliance for Scotland's Rainforest and I think one of the key things that has demonstrated is actually the power of having a kind of a coherent communications plan and therefore having a kind of 1 voice that is coming from all of these organisations  saying this is important, this is under threat and this is what we need to do is a really kind of key aim of the alliance.  Adam: Well Eleanor, thank you very much indeed. I do, I mean, I really do understand that sort of better together spirit really does help to achieve amazing things, so best of luck with that. I'm going to go off,  Dave is down there and I can see he's he's joined by a colleague I think there, so I'm going to go back and join them. But for the moment, thanks, thanks very much indeed.  Tom: So my name's Tom, Tom Pinches and we're contractors and consultants who work in the countryside.  Adam: And you're brought in to sort of identify trees that, it's called what this rapid, it sounds very flashy, so it's like you're the SAS of tree men, rapid reaction force. What is it called?  Tom: It's called the rapid rainforest assessment   Adam: Right and what is the rapid rainforest assessment?  Tom: The assessment formerly known as the rapid woodland assessment, it went through a little bit of a rebranding exercise.  Adam: Right, so what is it?  Tom: So the keyword there is rapid, so it's basically a toolkit which was developed by Plantlife to to easily identify temperate rainforests. I mean, my role as as a consultant really was to work with the volunteers.  Adam: Right. So showing them how to use this toolkit.  Tom: Yeah. So in theory it can be used by people with with less experience of ecological surveys. But there is some nuance there which requires a little bit of, a little bit of knowledge.  Adam: And so what sort of things are you testing? What, what are the the characteristics you're trying to find to identify this, this temperate rainforest?  Tom: So it it can be quite difficult to identify habitats and and that's something which ecologists have been struggling with for a while because there's no single identifying feature. So historically it was done by identifying indicator species. In certain habitats you tend to get communities of of species which which you find in that habitat. The problem with temperate rainforest is that those indicator species are plants like bryophytes, lichens, liverworts, mosses, which are very specialist, not not that many people can identify them, but the other things you can do are identify characteristics of the habitat. So these communities of species tend to be found in certain certain types of places. So one of the things we were looking at was was the structure of the woodland. We were looking at the age structure. We were looking at the amount of canopy cover, so those things are really important in temperate rainforest.  Adam: OK, so that's really critical, so this isn't Amazon rainforest transplanted to Devon tea land. This is, it does look different from a a jungle type Amazon.  Tom: So absolutely so the similarity is that they both require high rainfall, which is why you find them on the on the western edge of the UK where there's a lot of rainfall.  Adam: OK. And I don't wanna get obsessed by this, but why is it important that we identify this as rainforest, it looks just a very nice forest to me. The fact whether we call it temperate rainforest or just a bit of forest, doesn't seem to me to be that important. Why is it?  Tom: I mean, so temperate rainforest is is an incredibly rare habitat. So you could ask, why should we be conserving any incredibly rare habitats, I think, as a as a society, as an as a, as a, as a population, we all agree that that rare plants and rare habitats should be conserved, and so it's really important to identify them in order that we can conserve them. You know, we talk about diversity, we talk about diversity of species, biological diversity, diversity of habitats. And each of those sub habitats have their own biological diversity, biological uniqueness, and it's really important that we that we can identify as much nuance within those habitats and within that biological complexity as we can. So we can kind of save as much as we can, that's sort of under threat.  Adam: And it's beautiful as well as isnt it.  Tom: It is, yeah, it's really beautiful. They're some of the, I think some of the most beautiful habitats in the country, certainly in the country, maybe even the world. Very Tolkienesque, you know.  Adam: It is, as we crossed that bridge, I said if you're making a film of The Hobbit, that's what you put in The Hobbit.  Tom: Absolutely. And and and and you know these are habitats that inspired people like Tolkien to write about woodlands.  Adam: There is something mystical about them, isn't it? They do feel sort of magical places, little weird stuff could happen like stories.  Tom: They feel they feel timeless and ancient, and that's because they are ancient right and that's why they're so important because they're so old and they're so ancient. You know these really valuable habitats they're there because they've had so long such a long amount of time undisturbed to develop the diversity that they have.  Adam: Well, that is a fantastic point to end on Tom. And we are right in the middle of the woods right now and I have a train to catch, so I've got to make my way out to this place. So Tom, thank you very much, of course, my thanks to Eleanor and Dave and even the birds, the trees, the muds and the rivers which have given us our wonderful soundtrack for today. Thank you for listening. If you want to find a wood near you be it a temperate rainforest or something a little less exotic even, you can find a wood near you by going to woodlandtrust.org.uk forward stroke find a wood that's woodlandtrust.org.uk forward stroke find a wood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.   

Adam Carroll has spent the last decade studying human behavior, particularly as it relates to leadership and personal finance. He's an internationally recognized financial literacy expert, a two-time TEDx speaker, and the author of four Amazon best-sellers. Today, Adam joins the show to share his passion for helping people create financial freedom through unconventional financial strategies. Jonathan and Adam discuss how our relationship with money has changed over the last two decades, what it takes to change financial habits, and the importance of architecting the life you want to live.

Leading a single team has plenty of challenges. In the franchise world, you're working with multiple teams, including the franchisees, the company stores, and the team back at the home office. Each group brings its own unique set of challenges.Today's guest, Adam Sutton, is president of RNR Tire Express, a rent-to-own tire and wheel concept with stores and teams across the country.  On this episode of The Clarity Advisors Show, Adam talks with host Ken Trupke about growing the company after taking the reins from his legendary father, Larry Sutton, and the challenges of working with multiple teams in different locations.Episode Highlights: How to grow large, qualified teams quickly.The importance of being the guide of the organization.How to find the right people for the organization. Timestamps:[01:12] Adam's path to RNR.[02:42] Growing RLS.[07:37] Lessons learned from growing his teams.[11:00] Finding qualified people.[14:32] Growing the team at RNR.[16:43] The size of the team.[17:14] Adam's role as president.[20:19] The franchisees.[23:06] Transitioning from his father.[26:41] Lessons learned from making mistakes.[30:40] Adam's recommended content.Episode Quotes:“Surround yourself with smarter people.” (Adam)“It's OK to make mistakes, as long as you learn from them.” (Adam)“Your time is the biggest investment you have. Don't waste it.” (Adam)Adam's Recommended Reading and ListeningThe Bible"Road to Power" by Laura Colby.The Sales Edge podcast with Joe PiciBusiness Movers podcast from WonderyAmerican Innovations podcast from WonderySecret Sauce podcast from WonderyThe Way I Heard It podcast with Mike RoweSmartLess podcast with Jason Bateman, Sean Haynes, and Will ArnettConnect with Adam Sutton:RNR Tire Express company websiteRNR Tire Express franchising websiteAdam Sutton on LinkedIn

Much as I love a woodland walk, my tree identification skills leave a lot to be desired, so I travelled to Londonthorpe Wood, Grantham for a lesson from the experts. We join tree ID guru Sally to learn how to recognise common trees from their leaves, catkins, bark and berries. From apple and ash to hawthorn and hazel, she also tells us more about the trees' value for wildlife. I learned so much during this episode, and I hope you do too. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Do you know what? I have been wandering around woods for many years and I've been doing so rather ignorantly. I mean, I like it and everything, but I actually don't know the names, or the histories, or the importance of a lot of the trees I am passing. So, I've tried to correct that, and to do that I'm taking a little lesson. I'm going back to school, and I'm doing that with the assistance of Sally Bavin, who is the assistant conservation evidence officer at the Woodland Trust. And we're going to Londonthorpe Wood, which is near Grantham, which is in fact near the headquarters of the Woodland Trust. And she's going to run me through some of the key things to look out for in trees. Now, of course, we're coming to the end of the easy season to identify trees because leaves are a big clue. Leaves are falling off the trees, as is their wont at this time of year. But nonetheless, there are still enough of them around for me to make a good guess and I thought it was high time I learn something and hopefully have a bit of fun and share that insight with you. So, off to Londonthorpe Wood, it is! And I'm gonna meet Sally Bavin from the Woodland Trust. So, Sally, hi! We've met under a tree. Look at… I can tell straight away it's an apple tree because it has apples on it! [Laugh] Sally: Yes! Adam: But I come for some lessons – gone back to school. You know, how to identify trees when they don't have apples on them, so they are not as easily identifiable. So, is this what you do at the Trust? Go around identifying trees? Is this what you do normally? Sally: [Laugh] Not all the time, but a small part of my role is, erm I lead a tree ID course. So, it's just an afternoon, we run it about every six months. Adam: Yes, I have to say, I mean I was very keen to do this, well, because I've gone to lots of woodlands, I am very ignorant about identifying trees. And I was thinking, we've gotta rush before all the leaves fall off, because then it's a lot harder, but they're still, there are trees that have got lots of leaves.  So, before we start the course. Why is it important to know what a tree is – what species of tree you're looking at? Sally: Yeah, well, I think it depends. It depends on who you are as to what your interest is in the trees. I think generally for just the public it's a nice thing to note, help you understand your surroundings of a lot better and it's a sort of the first step into connecting with nature, at a bit of a deeper level than just enjoying the greenery. Because you can then look for the specific things about different species that changed throughout the seasons, and you can be expecting the apples and looking out for them in summer when they're only just appearing. That sort of thing.  So, it's good for helping people to connect with nature on a more personal level. Because the type of trees in a woodland can tell you a lot about the sort of story of the woodland. So, it could help indicate whether it's ancient woodland. It could tell you about what sort of soil types underlying the sites are and that kind of thing. What ground flora, therefore, you're likely to sort of expect and indicate the condition of the woodland in terms of ecological health. So, if you've got lots of non-native tree species there that could tell you that the woodland's perhaps degraded and in need of restoration, that kind of thing. Adam: Okay, fantastic, and you're going to take me on a little journey and we're going to identify some trees. Now, I have to say first of all, about me personally, and I think others as well might find this whole thing rather daunting because there are probably thousands of tree types, and you think how on earth am I going to get to know any trees? Really as I'd have to go back to university really. Is it as daunting as it sort of first sounds? Sally: No, definitely not. There's only a handful really of really common species. So, for example, maybe sort of ten of the most common would be oak, ash, hawthorn, birch, beech, Scots pine, rowan, hazel, blackthorn and willow. And then you get to know those and then you sort of gradually pepper some more interesting species in between.  Adam: Right, so that's very manageable. Super! There are sort of 10 of some of the most popular, well-known, widely dispersed UK native trees, the list of which I've already forgotten. But if you know those ten you can sort of work your way around the woodland fairly well. Sally: Yeah. And it depends on where you are coz you won't necessarily see all of those even. Adam: No, okay, very good. Well, let's not where we are. This is clearly an apple tree because it's got nice… got a very good harvest of apples on it. If it didn't, how do you spot an apple tree? Sally: Okay, so yeah, so first of all it is important to note that this is an apple tree, it is a domesticated apple variety of some description, this one, and the reason why it's here at Londonthorpe, though it's not a wild tree, is to help with the sort of engagement with visitors.  So, I think the idea when this wood was planted back in the 90s, was for it to, be very much, to engage people. That people could have a snack as they went around and have that sort of engagement with nature. If you wanted to have a taste of one, although they are a bit higher up [laugh], you'd know that it tastes a lot different to the crab apple that we'll see later on, which is very much… Adam: The crab apples are tiny, aren't they?  Sally: mmmm. Adam: I didn't think they were edible?  Sally: Well, the wild ones are, yeah, I think that they're edible, they're just not very palatable…  Adam: Not very nice, okay.  Sally: So, our ancestors bred them to be different [laugh]. Adam: Okay, alright. So, but anything about the sort of branches or leaves one could look out for. Sally: So, yes, so. A lot of fruit trees are members of the Rosaceae family, so the Rose family. And quite a feature of those is that they tend to grow these sort of short woody spurs from the twig, which then have a spray of leaves all emerging from a kind of cluster. Adam: Right, right. Yep. Sally: Which is one characteristic of an apple tree. The leaves are simple leaves that are oval, and they have some tooth edges as well. So, they're generally kind of slightly glossy and darker on the top than they are on the bottom. Adam: Right. Sally: So, in the spring, obviously you wouldn't have the apples on there. Adam: No. Sally: You'd have the blossom which is a white, with a slight… Adam: It's beautiful isn't it, apple blossom, it's beautiful.  Sally: Yeah. A slight tinge of pink to the petals. Adam: Okay, well, wonderful. And [inaudible] to be honest, I never eat anything in the wild because I'm terrified of killing myself and I don't think I should. Because I'm with an expert, I feel much safer, so is it okay if I grab… Sally: You can grab… Adam: I mean neither of us are particularly tall, but there are a couple in about stretching height here, so hang on a second…  Sally: Yep, go for it. Adam: I'm getting stuck on this already. Sally: I have to say, I definitely agree that if you're not 100% confident, definitely don't eat anything. But this is definitely okay. This is definitely an apple tree. Adam: Oh ooo look I've got one, I've got one. Sally: [laugh] Go on. Adam: Okay. Sally: Not the biggest. [Laughter] Adam: It's not, it's, I haven't had breakfast. And I don't think lunch is on the menu, so this might be it, okay, hold on a second, you'll hear this. [Chomp] Sally: Fresh as anything! Adam: Mmmm [chomping] – I can tell you it's lovely. Mmmm okay that was very good, very good. Okay. So, that's our first tree, lead on and we shall find our second! Sally: Let's go this way So yeah, you're tasting the sweetness that our ancestors bred into it. [Chomping] Adam: Do you know what type of apple this is? Sally: [Laughing] I've no idea.  Adam: No idea.  Sally: No. [laugh] Adam: It's a tasty one that's all. Mmmm very nice! Sally: Okay, we've come to a… Adam: Well hold on hold on a second, I've gotta finish this mouthful. [Laughter] Sally: We'll see lots more, so carry on chewing. Adam: Okay, Let me just finish this before – I'll spit apple all over you otherwise. [Chomping] Sally: So, we're reaching another tree here, that's again one of the really common ones that you'll see in lots of woodlands across the UK. So, this is an ash tree. Adam: Okay. So first, well can you describe it for us? Sally: So, this one's a fairly young tree. It's only maybe seven centimetres in diameter on the trunk. It's got really quite pale bark, which I would say is quite characteristic of ash, a sort of ashen colour.  Adam: Also, as opposed to the apple tree, which is really broad, had lots of leaves. It was really sort of dense-like bush-like.  Sally: Yeah.  Adam: This one, you see the main trunk, which is very thin and only a few branches and a few leaves. It's much more minimalist. Sally: Yes. So, these, so, ash trees are one of the most common trees in this area that you find in hedgerows. When they're mature, they can be, you know, really have a good size trunk on them…  Adam: Right…  Sally: and a real spreading crown. But this one's young, it's not reached that size yet, but the main ID feature at this time of year I'd say is the leaf, which is very characteristic. So, experts describe it as a compound. They're a bit far away, but we can get the idea from here. So, it's a compound leaf because each of those leafstalks has pairs of leaves coming off it.  Adam: Right. One to the left, one to the right. Sally: So those, what look like small leaves, are actually leaflets and the whole thing is a leaf. So each thing is um, each whole leaf emerges from the stem and has a green leafstalk. The whole thing is shed in the autumn and then comes back. Adam: Right, we've gotta go back over this. So, what I think is a leaf, you're telling me is not a leaf, it's a leaflet. Leaflet, have I said that right?  Sally: A leaflet, yep. So, you've got pairs of leaflets. Adam: So actually, there's sort of one, two, three, four… four pairs and one at the end. So, there's eight, nine leaves, what I think of as leaves. You're saying technically that's one leaf actually.   Sally: Exactly. And that's because the whole thing emerges from one bud. And is shed as a whole thing in the autumn. Adam: I see. Now, the ash, obviously one hears a lot about this, ash dieback. So, this tree looks quite healthy though. Sally: Oooer Adam: No, well okay, it doesn't look healthy. Sally: No, if you look at the top you can see the leaves the left on it are only really in a sort of central area. All of these branches which are extending to the edge, to the extremity, of the tree are bare already. Adam: Yes, so it's not healthy. I'm a complete idiot. It doesn't look healthy at all. It looks very sick. Sally: Sadly, the fact that it has dieback is now one of the key, sort of, features to ID ash, which is very sad. [Adam: right] If you see a tree that looks like, you know even in the height of summer, that it's lost quite a lot of its leaves, quite often that will be an ash tree with ash dieback. [Break] Adam: So, you've stopped underneath, this tree, much darker bark. So, what is it? Sally: So, this is a wild cherry. Adam: Okay, so, no cherries on it. So, before you sort of explain the defining feature, can you just describe the tree generally? Sally: Yes. So, it's another member of the rose family. So, leaves are kind of similar to the apple in that their ovals and they sort of emerge in these sprays, but they're a lot more pointed. And the teeth around the edge, I would say, are a lot more defined. And this one's sort of a medium-aged tree, I would say – like many in Londonthorpe as they were planted in about the 90s, so. Um, the bark has these, sort of, horizontal lines across it which are very characteristic of cherry. And as you say, it's a dark colour. This one's not as red as they come – they sometimes look a bit redder than this.  Adam: Right. You can see, I think some of the branches have been cut off, haven't they? And there it looks red. Sally: Yeah, yes, you can see the sort of red tinge to the wood inside there. So, you mentioned it doesn't have any cherries on it – we're a bit late for cherries, ‘cause they're something that's in season in the midsummer. That time of year, and the birds absolutely love them, so they get hoovered up as soon as they're on the tree, basically as soon as they're ripe. And that's reflected in the name, the scientific name of the trees. Prunus – so that means they're part of the plum and cherry family – and then avium is the species name, obviously referring to birds there – so how much they love the cherries. Adam: So, so it's a good thing for the wildlife. Sally: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Adam: Very nice. And then, so the leaves now. So, I know that you were previously telling me what I thought was a leaf was a leaflet – these, each individual one here is a leaf? Sally: Yeah, these are simple leaves. So, yeah as you'd expect the stalk joins directly to the woody stem and the whole leaf beyond that is one single leaf.  Adam: So, the definition of a leaf is something that, sort of, sprouts from a bud? [Sally: Yes, yeah] So each leaf will come from its own individual bud on this cherry. Brilliant! Sally: Let's head on. [laugh] [Walking, crunching of twigs under foot]  Sally: We're coming up to the crab apple here. Adam: Oh, oh, ok. So, this is a tree loaded with fruit – these tiny, tiny, mini apples. So, this is, this is [Sally: this is a crab apple] a crab apple.  Sally: So, if you look at the leaves again, they're very similar to the apple tree that we saw before, not much difference in the leaf. Pale on the underside, and glossy on the top [Adam: right] and arising in these little sprigs, but the apples are tiny. Um, and if we try one [laughter] they're… I'll try one, I'll take one for the team.  Adam: yeah, you take one for the team [laughs]  Sally: and you'll tell by my reaction… Adam: Oh okay, go on then… [Laughter, inaudible]  Adam: It's a lifetime of going ‘never eat anything', well together. Sally: Together. Adam and Sally: Okay. One, two, three… [Crunch, chomping] Adam: Urgh, not keen on, I dunno its unusual.  Sally: It's the aftertaste.  Adam: It's unusual. It… hmmm.  Sally: It gets more sour, I think, the more you chew it.  Adam: It does. It does a bit.  Sally: Not as nice as the one that has been bred.  Adam: It's not as nice. It's a bit odd in a sense that no one ever sells crab apples. You know, I mean. Sally: Yeah. You can make this jelly.  Adam: crab apple jelly, I've heard of that.  Sally: Anything tastes nice when you bung a load of sugar on top.  Adam: Yes, that's true, that's true. [Laughter] Adam: [joking] You could just eat the leaves, take the leaves and chuck a load of sugar on, I don't know why. Now, I think I've had my fill… Sally: Strangely morish.  Adam: No, not for me. I'll stay with my apple. [Laughter] Sally: They've definitely got a bitter sour kick, haven't they?  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sally: Not as sweet.  Adam: Is it okay if I just throw this into the verge for the animals?  Sally: There's lots of windfall ones down there anyway.  Adam: I can see. Yeah, you don't have a cup of tea to take away the taste, do you? [Laughter] No, no. So, there we are.  Sally: So, that was to demonstrate the difference between a domestic apple and the crab apple. Which of course, is one of the ancestors of the domestic apple. Adam: Is it? [Laugh] I've been offered a polo to take away some of the taste. Oh, go on, go on, I will have one. I said no, I will have one. That's very kind, thank you. [Unwrapping a polo, laughter] [Walking] Adam: Right, we've come up to a very different looking one, which has got very particular leaves and tiny little red berries. I know that you don't like to reveal the tree at the beginning because we love the drama of it! Go on then, you talk me through this tree.  Sally: Okay, so this one's hawthorn. [Adam: Ahh right.] A common component of hedgerows up and down the country. Also known as quickthorn, sometimes, because it does grow very quickly. This shows an example of how they can grow if they're not kept trim into a hedgerow. So yes, there's that shrubby growth habit, even though it's not being cut. And the leaves are very small. Yet another member of the rose family and the leaves are, we describe as lobed, so it has these, sort of, sticking out sections.  Adam: They're much smaller. How ignorant a statement is it that there's a similarity between this and an oak leaf?  Sally: Yeah, not too ignorant.  Adam: Not too ignorant.  Sally: Not too ignorant because they're both lobed, both lobed leaves, but the size is very different. Adam: This is much smaller. Sally: Um. So lovely autumn colour as you can see, they're going yellow in colour. So, if you're thinking about managing a hedgerow for wildlife. You want to make sure that the tree is allowed to produce its flowers and then later in the year produce berries. And hawthorn and another hedgerow species in the UK, like blackthorn, which we might see some later, they produce their flowers only on the previous year's growth of wood. Which means if they're flailed annually – every year that new bit of growth gets chopped back to where it was at the beginning of the year, and therefore it's never allowed to flower and therefore set berries. So, the pollinators suffer from that, and the birds suffer because they don't have the berries. The berries are a really important winter food. Adam: So, it's important actually, from a nature point of view, for this to be a bit untidy. If you keep it too manicured, it'll never flower, it will never have berries. Sally: Yeah, and you can. The advice is that hedgerows – if you cut them every three years, but you don't have to let them go out of control, you can cut one side one year, and then the top and then the next side, so that every year there's always some availability for wildlife. Adam: Okay that's a good idea. [Voices] Adam: I think there's a dog called Ian that's got lost [Laughter]. So, if you've just heard that? Come here, Ian. Either it's a wayward husband or a wayward dog [Laughter]. Either of which we're going to pass them shortly… Ian, Ian looks like a dog! What an unusual name for a dog… Hello Ian! [Laughter] No, Ian's not interested, he's off!  [Laughter, voices, walking] Adam: So, we've made another stop. So again, very different look. So, do you want to describe it before we get to what it is? Sally: Okay, yeah, this might be one. This is a very common one. I'd say this is in the top two, top three. Adam: It's so embarrassing, I don't even know what it is.  Sally: You haven't got a clue, no? Adam: I'm an idiot, so no… Sally: So, if I if I say it's silver does that give you an idea? Adam: Birch! Sally: It's a silver birch! Adam: Aww, yes, that helps me along, if only you were there during my O levels. [Laughter] Adam: So yes, so it's got a very, it's got this very slender, it's got one very small, sort of, main trunk, which is silver. It's got, are they called catskills?  Sally: Catkins!  Adam: Catkins! Sorry! Catkins, how would you describe these then? Sally: Yeah, I guess it's like a little sausage shape hanging down. The ones that we're looking at are from the previous year so they're very, sort of, dried up. Adam: And these are the seeds are they or… Sally: Yes, yes. So, they're the flowering part. In the spring they look, sort of, yellow and fresh. They release their pollen, so we've got a little gust of wind to demonstrate how the seeds disperse, and how the pollen is dispersed as well in this species. So, a wood that is dominated by a lot of young, densely populated birch trees - you can kind of get the idea that's probably a naturally regenerated woodland because it's a good pioneer at covering new ground. Adam: And again, does it fruit or anything? Is it good for wildlife if there's something for birds and wildlife to eat off this? Sally: It's a really popular one with blue tits because… not because of the fruit, but because it's really popular with insects. So, after oak, birch supports lots and lots of different insect species. Oak supports the most, and ash as well, and birch is definitely up there. Adam: But why? Why is it? Why is it so supportive if there…? I mean, if there's no fruit on the thing? Surely something like cherry or apple – that would support most because it's easy to eat? Sally: Yeah. Well, the insects are after the leaves and the sap and that sort of thing. So like aphids, caterpillars… [Adam: They like this.] So, for the birds that eat aphids, caterpillars – like blue tits – especially in the spring when they're feeding their chicks it's a really important species. Adam: Okay, onward. [Walking] Sally: Hello again, so you can't see a huge amount of acorns on this one. Adam: Oh well, you've given it away! You always like keeping us in suspense, but I know therefore we are looking at an oak. So, the oak leaf is, sort of, our national symbol. I mean it's a symbol of Woodland Trust anyway. [Sally: Exactly] You might as well describe them though, for those that don't know much about the oak.  Sally: So, in this part of the country, we're in the East Midlands, you're likely to see English oak, and that's characterised by a leaf, which goes all the way up to the woody stem. There isn't any exposed bare leafstalk in between. And on the acorns – the acorn comes with a stem. Which is, that is the peduncle. Hence peduncular oak. [Laughter] Adam: That just reminded me of my French and German lessons. I'm feeling a bit lost, but okay, but lots of other people won't be lost.  [Walking] Adam: So, we've come across a clump of trees that are very similar. Ah, they've all got little red berries on. An erm, I'm trying to see. Ah, lovely little leaves. Now! Hold on a second. Hold on a second here, see I am already learning. I would say this was ten leaves, but actually, this is one leaf, and these are leaflets, aren't they?  Sally: Indeed, yep, you got it!  Adam: I've jumped to the top of the class! Okay, so that's very good. So, there's a, there's a stem leading from the main woody, woody branch and on that has a little collection of little leaves, which are called leaflets. So what tree is this? Sally: So, as you really correctly described that it's very similar in leaf shape to the ash that we saw before. Which gives rise to one of the common names of this species, which is mountain ash, sometimes people describe it. But the most commonly used name is rowan. [Adam: Right] So, it's a small tree. As we looking around here, it's kind of, it's really standing out as part of the understory here, under these taller ash and birch trees, because they've all gone this really lovely orangey russet colour in their autumn glory. [Inaudible] Adam: Yes, they're turning quicker than the other trees, aren't they?  Sally: Mmm. And their really bright berries stand out as well in these lovely clusters of red… Adam: I've seen, I've seen rowans that looks a lot nicer. These look a bit bedraggled. Is that part of this particular tree or is that the nature of the rowan?  Sally: I think it's because of the situation they've grown in here. They're under quite a bit of shade under other trees. Adam: So, we've got these leaves, they have little red berries on them and the main trunk thin, and well here, it's sort of, a rusty green colour. Is that fairly typical? Sally: Mmm. Quite a pale, sort of, colour, and quite smooth. Erm but, they never grow into a big tree I would say, is one of the key features of them.  Adam: And er, good for nature? Sally: Yeah, so we can see all the berries here, loved by blackbirds. They are quite a common tree for people to plant in their garden coz they don't grow too big. So yeah, lovely for attracting the birds.  Adam: Very good. [Gap] OK, so we've come to another oak – very low. Now, this is interesting, isn't it? So, you can tell it's an oak – very big substantial leaves.  Sally: Mmm, it looks very healthy, doesn't it?  Adam: It does, except what's odd is that all the branches start really low down. [Sally: yeah] It feels like, I dunno, has man got involved here, so has it been cut back? This is odd! Sally: Yeah, well, it's a really interesting point that you make because it shows how the situation that tree is growing in really affects its growth habit. So, the oak that we saw before was growing in woodland in dense situation with other trees in. Adam: So, you have four, five foot at least of tree trunk before you got any branches?  Sally: Yep.  Adam: This branch starts about ten centimetres off the ground. Sally: Yeah. So, because that one that we saw before was growing in the woodlands. It's grown competing for light. So, it's put all its energy into growing upwards – tall and thin – which is good for timber. That's what a forester would appreciate in a tree.  Adam: This has grown out. Sally: Whereas this one, because it's in an open space, it's had space to spread its wings as it were, to spread its branches out and to really create this kind of bushy habit. And although this is, this one's quite young, this is almost, I would describe it as like a proto-ancient tree. It could, this one has the potential because it's grown in this open situation and with a real sort of broad base, stocky, stout growth habit, it has the potential to get a lot older.  Adam: This is gonna be very stable.  Sally: Yeah. Adam: It's also a fun tree, to go… I mean I could climb to the top of this tree, almost… just, because it's about five foot high. [Laughter] This is sort of fun. I could imagine kids hiding in there, really lovely.  So, I didn't realise, so, if you happen to be planting trees, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a garden where you can plant trees, and you wanted this sort of thing, you'd put it in by itself. And it'd grow nice and short, big round and lots of bushy sort of stuff, because it's not competing, it's putting its energy elsewhere. Sally: That's it. It's, sort of, characteristic of a type of habitat that we call wood pasture, which is often… you'll see at stately homes like in the nearby Belton estate, you get a scattered collection of usually oak trees in an open grazed landscape, and they're… usually, they're very old because they were planted or established a long time ago. And because they grow in the open area, they've withstood the test of time, so if they're tall and spindly they get blown over a lot more easily. But they last a lot longer when they're grown in the open.  Adam: Fantastic, okay, I'll… I'm just going to take a photo of this as well. [Gap] There we are. You've gotta stand there so I've got something to scale [laughter]. Otherwise, it could be thirty foot high! There we are, there we are, got it. [Laughter] [Pause] So, loads of trees, you've stopped by another one, which is very, I mean it's very low. I can't even see the trunk here because of the leaves. But it also stretches quite high, very bush-like, quite large leaves. I'll, I'll let you do the rest [laugh]. Sally: Mmm, do you have any clue on it? Adam: It's got these things that I'll mispronounce, I'm going to mispronounce again. Catkills?  Sally: Catkins.  Adam: Catkins. So, these are the seeds, but these are much prettier. Very small, delicate ones, umm err, there are individual quite large hand-shaped leaves. [Sally: They're broad.] Yes broad leaves.  Sally: Shall I put you out of your misery? Adam: Yeah, go on then… [laughter] Sally: It's hazel, this one [Adam: Right] So, you're very correct to observe that it's growing in, again, a shrublike habit. Adam: That's normal… that's not just because of the way this tree is?  Sally: Yeah, they have the habit of growing in that, kind of, [Adam: Very low down] shape. They're quite often coppiced and if you go to an ancient woodland the traditional management practice of managing a woodland would be coppicing the hazel.  Adam: Don't you get hazel that you make fences out of and stuff? Sally: Yes. Yeah, that's it! Adam: Is it very bendy, the wood?  Sally: Yes so, the young… the reason why they would coppice it is to get the regrowth that sprouts back. It's then in narrow, sort of, poles [Adam: Right] and has that flexible property. Um, yeah, so also good for hazelnuts – your Ferrero Rocher [laugh]. I don't know if we are allowed to advertise on this [laugh].  Adam: Yes, that's fine… The ambassador likes them, and other nut-based chocolates are available, I suppose we should say. Okay no hazelnuts at the moment, too early for that, or too late?  Sally: I would say that it already is probably, you have to look on the bottom of the branches… Adam: It's the right time but someone has nicked them all.  Sally: It's the right time but it could be the squirrels.  Adam: The squirrels have been here before us.  Sally: Yeah! Grey squirrels will take them even before they are ripe. They will take them when they are still green. So, it's quite often a bit of a challenge to actually find any nuts, but if you do, they're in a little cluster, usually of three and they have a kind of, little frilly outer case to them and then a hazelnut, well you know what a hazelnut looks like?  Adam: I do know what a hazelnut looks like! Well look, I think you promised me ten trees, but we're just not going to have time to do them all. So, we might have to do another podcast. We won't get another one in this year. We'll have to wait until the next leaf season.  Sally: We could do a winter, a spring… Adam: I'd have to say I'd love to do a winter one, but aren't you just looking at bare trunks? Sally: Winter is, yeah, next level up [laugh]. Adam: Could you identify the trees in winter?  Sally: Yeah, [inaudible] Adam: Ah you see now; you see you shouldn't have said that! [Laughter] You shouldn't have said it, because I will come back then, and we'll see how good you are at identifying completely bare trees. I'd think that'd be quite an interesting thing to do. Sally: I'd have to brush up. There are keys and guide that can help you do it. Adam: Well, and you say that, and of course the Woodland Trust has its own tree identifier app [Sally: it does] and there are others out there, there are books as well, you can use… as well as the blog that goes along with this – photos will be on there!  Sally: In fact, um, if you become a member of the Woodland Trust, you get a free little swatch book, which is like a pocket guide with the most common trees that you are likely to see on there, so you'll be always armed, always armed! Adam: Do you know I'm not sure I got that? Maybe, I don't know! An outrage! [Laughter] I probably got it and lost it is the truth! Probably got it and lost it. [Laughter] Anyway, well look…  Sally: Perhaps we'll try and find you a new one.  Adam: Okay, that will be very kind. Okay good, so look I have learned a properly enormous amount, I'm not just saying this, a properly enormous amount today. I'm gonna listen back to what you say and make some notes as well, because I don't know, I don't have a professional interest in this at all, but I think it's quite nice not to wander around ignorantly, and just go ‘oh that's a hazelnut, that's ash and there were lots of things you were saying about why that's good for birds'. And it's, I mean your background is science and you work for the Woodland Trust, but how difficult is it for people to get a working knowledge of this stuff?  Sally: I don't think it's too difficult to get to a point where you feel familiar with your local collection of trees that you see on a regular basis in your landscape and I think even if you take from this session that we've done – if you take a couple more that you knew before that's getting you towards know a higher proportion of them and then you'll know which ones you can rule out if you're looking at something different, erm so yeah I think it's very doable, and I agree that it makes it a lot more… your walks, they have an extra layer of meaning and you can read the landscape a bit more.  Adam: [inaudible] And of course, I mean if you are new to the Woodland Trust or not a member, new to woods, and you want to find a woodland near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, which is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, and you can find a wood. Thank you very much, it's been a fantastic, fantastic day out.  Sally: You're very welcome, Adam I'm pleased you've learned something.  Adam: Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating.  And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Today's Gospel instalment- 10-02-2022--Sermon Title- -The death of the High Priest---Text- Numbers 35--1. The matter of the who, the how and the when of salvation is a matter that God already spoke to in the scriptures.--2. That is what the scriptures are there to declare to any who seek understanding of God's RECIPE OF SALVATION.--3. What is the real matter that affects every sinner born in Adam- It is justification. --4. What does that mean- IT means their need to come out of that legal state that God put them in through Adam.--5. Every person who is saved is saved from something. They have to pass through a state in which they needed redemption and justification. And this was necessitated largely by what God purposed in salvation-the praise of the riches of His grace. --6. And much of religion has all kinds of formulas to the matter of the justification of a sinner. But God only accepts one and He determined that the justification of anyone, even if He loved them from before the foundation has to happen at the death of the High Priest.--7. The death of the High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ on Mt Calvary, is the most important subject there is to God. Thus, it must be the center of our understanding of all matters of salvation. The cross was not an enabler of justification. IT was God justifying all His people from all their sins by reason of Christ's surety and representation, imputation and propitiation. -8. And it is free.

Today's Gospel instalment- 10-02-2022--Sermon Title- -The death of the High Priest---Text- Numbers 35--1. The matter of the who, the how and the when of salvation is a matter that God already spoke to in the scriptures.--2. That is what the scriptures are there to declare to any who seek understanding of God's RECIPE OF SALVATION.--3. What is the real matter that affects every sinner born in Adam-- It is justification. --4. What does that mean-- IT means their need to come out of that legal state that God put them in through Adam.--5. Every person who is saved is saved from something. They have to pass through a state in which they needed redemption and justification. And this was necessitated largely by what God purposed in salvation-the praise of the riches of His grace. --6. And much of religion has all kinds of formulas to the matter of the justification of a sinner. But God only accepts one and He determined that the justification of anyone, even if He loved them from before the foundation has to happen at the death of the High Priest.--7. The death of the High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ on Mt Calvary, is the most important subject there is to God. Thus, it must be the center of our understanding of all matters of salvation. The cross was not an enabler of justification. IT was God justifying all His people from all their sins by reason of Christ's surety and representation, imputation and propitiation. -8. And it is free.

Today's Gospel instalment- 10-02-2022--Sermon Title- -The death of the High Priest---Text- Numbers 35--1. The matter of the who, the how and the when of salvation is a matter that God already spoke to in the scriptures.--2. That is what the scriptures are there to declare to any who seek understanding of God's RECIPE OF SALVATION.--3. What is the real matter that affects every sinner born in Adam-- It is justification. --4. What does that mean-- IT means their need to come out of that legal state that God put them in through Adam.--5. Every person who is saved is saved from something. They have to pass through a state in which they needed redemption and justification. And this was necessitated largely by what God purposed in salvation-the praise of the riches of His grace. --6. And much of religion has all kinds of formulas to the matter of the justification of a sinner. But God only accepts one and He determined that the justification of anyone, even if He loved them from before the foundation has to happen at the death of the High Priest.--7. The death of the High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ on Mt Calvary, is the most important subject there is to God. Thus, it must be the center of our understanding of all matters of salvation. The cross was not an enabler of justification. IT was God justifying all His people from all their sins by reason of Christ's surety and representation, imputation and propitiation. -8. And it is free.

About AdamAdam is an independent cloud consultant that helps startups build products on AWS. He's also the host of AWS FM, a podcast with guests from around the AWS community, and an AWS DevTools Hero.Adam is passionate about open source and has made a handful of contributions to the AWS CDK over the years. In 2020 he created Ness, an open source CLI tool for deploying web sites and apps to AWS.Previously, Adam co-founded StatMuse—a Disney backed startup building technology that answers sports questions—and served as CTO for five years. He lives in Nixa, Missouri, with his wife and two children.Links Referenced: 17 Ways to Run Containers On AWS: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/the-17-ways-to-run-containers-on-aws/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/aeduhm Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/adamelmore TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while, I encounter someone in the wild that… well, I'll just be direct, makes me feel a little bit uneasy, almost like someone's walking over my grave. And I think I've finally figured out elements of what that is. It feels sometimes like I run into people—ideally not while driving—who are trying to occupy sort of the same space in the universe, and I never quite know how to react to that.Today's guest is just one such person. Adam Elmore is an independent AWS consultant, has been all over the Twitters for a while, recently started live streaming basically his every waking moment because he is just that interesting. Adam, thank you for suffering my slings and arrows—Adam: [laugh].Corey: —and agreeing to chat with me today.Adam: I would say first of all, you don't need to be worried about anyone walking over your grave. [laugh]. That was very flattering.Corey: No, honestly, I have big enterprise companies looking to put me in my grave, but that's a separate threat model. We're good on that, for now.Adam: [laugh]. I got to set myself up here to—I'm just going to laugh a lot, and your editor or somebody's going to have to deal with that. And maybe the audience will see—[laugh].Corey: Hey, I prefer that as opposed to talking to people who have absolutely no sense of humor of which they are aware. Awesome, I have a list of companies that they should apply for immediately. So, when I say that we're trying to occupy elements of the same space in the universe, let me talk a little bit about what I mean by that. You are independent as a consultant, which is how I started this whole nonsense, and then I started gathering a company around me almost accidentally. You are an AWS Dev Tools Hero, whereas I am an AWS community villain, which is kind of a polar opposite slash anti-hero approach, and it's self-granted in my case. How did you stumble into the universe of AWS? You just realized one day you were too happy and what can you do to make yourself miserable, and this was the answer, or what?Adam: Yeah, I guess. So. I mean, I've been a software developer for 15 years, like, my whole career, that's kind of what I've done. And at some point, I started a startup called StatMuse. And I was able, as sort of a co-founder there, with venture backing, like, I was able to just kind of play with the cloud.And we deployed everything on AWS, so that was—like, I was there five years; it was sort of five years of running this, I would call it like a Digital Media Studio. Like, we built technology, but we did lots of experiments, so it felt like playing on AWS. Because we built kind of weird one-offs, these digital experiences for various organizations. The Hall of Fame was one of them. We did, like, a, like, a 3-D Talking bust of John Madden, so it was like all kinds of weird technology involved.But that was sort of five years of, I guess, spending venture money [laugh] to play on AWS. And some of that was Google money; I guess I never thought about that, but Google was an investor in StatMuse. [laugh]. Yeah, so we sort of like—I ran that for five years and was able to learn just a lot of AWS stuff that really excited me. I guess, coming from normal web development stuff, it was exciting just how much leverage you have with AWS, so I sort of dove in pretty hard. And then yeah, when I left StatMuse in 2019 I've just been, I guess, going even harder into that direction. I just really enjoy it.Corey: My first real exposure to AWS was at a company where the CTO was a, I guess we'll call him an extraordinarily early cloud evangelist. I was there as a contractor, and he was super excited and would tweet nonsensical things like, “I'm never going to rack a server ever again.” And I was a grumpy sysadmin type; I came from the ops world where anything that is new shouldn't be treated with disdain and suspicion because once you've been a sysadmin for 20 minutes, you've been there long enough to see today's shiny new shit become tomorrow's legacy garbage that you're stuck supporting. So, “Oh, great. What now?”I was very down on Cloud in those days and I encountered it with increasing frequency as I stumbled my way through my career. And at the end of 2016, I wound up deciding to go out independent and fix… well, what problems am I good at fixing that I can articulate in a sentence, and well, I'd gotten surprised by AWS bills from time to time—fortunately with someone else's money; the best kind of mistake to make—and well I know a few things. Let's get really into it. In time, I came to learn that cost and architecture the same thing in cloud, and now I don't know how the hell to describe myself. Other people love to describe me, usually with varying forms of profanity, but here we are. It really turns into the idea of forging something of your own path. And you've absolutely been doing that for at least the last three years as you become someone who's increasingly well known and simultaneously harder to describe.Adam: Yeah, I would say if you figure it out, if you know how to describe me, I would love to know because just coming up with the title—for this episode you needed, like, my title, I don't know what my title is. I'm also—like, we talked about independent, so nobody sort of gives me a title. I would love to just receive one if you think of one, [laugh] if anyone listening thinks of one… it's increasingly hard to, sort of like, even decide what I care most about. I know I need to, like, probably niche down, I feel like you've kind of niched into the billing stuff. I can't just be like, “I'm an AWS guy,” because AWS is so big. But yeah, I have no idea.Corey: Anyone who claims, “Oh, I'm an expert in AWS,” is lying or trying to sell something.Adam: [laugh]. Exactly.Corey: I love that. It's, “Really? I have some questions to establish that for you.” As far as naming what it is, you do, first piece of advice, never ever, ever, ever listen to someone who works at AWS; those people are awful at naming things, as evidenced by basically every service they've ever launched. But you are actually fairly close to being an AWS expert. You did a six-week speed-run through every certification that they offer and that is nothing short of astonishing. How'd it come about?Adam: It's a unique intersection of skills that I think I have. And I'm not very self-aware, I don't know all my strengths and weaknesses and I struggle to sort of nail those down, but I think one of my strengths is just ability to, like, consume information, I guess at a high volume. So, I'm like an auditory learner; I can listen to content really fast and sort of retain enough. And then I think the other skill I have is just I'm good at tests. I've always said that, like, going back to school, like, high school, I always felt like I was really good at multiple-choice tests. I don't know if that's a skill or some kind of innate talent.But I think those two things combined, and then, like, eight years of building on AWS, and that sort of frames how I was able to take all that on. And I don't know that I really set out thinking I will do it in six weeks. I took the first few and then did them pretty fast and thought, “I wonder how quickly I could do all of them.” And I just kind of at that point, it became this sort of goal. I have to take on certain challenges occasionally that just sound fun for no reason other than they sound fun and that was kind of the thing for those six weeks. [laugh].Corey: I have two certifications: Cloud Practitioner and the SysOps Administrator Associate. Those were interesting.Adam: You took the new one, right? The new SysOps with the labs and stuff I'd love to hear about that.Corey: I did, back when it was in beta. That was a really interesting experience and I'll definitely get to that, but I wound up, for example, getting a question wrong in the Cloud Practitioner exam four years ago or so, when it was, “How long does it take to restore an RDS instance from backup?” And I gave the honest answer instead of the by-the-book, correct answer. That's part of the problem is that I've been doing this stuff too long and I know how these things break and what the real world looks like. Certifications are also very much a snapshot at a point in time.Because I write the Last Week in AWS newsletter, I'm generally up-to-the-minute on what has changed, and things that were not possible yesterday, suddenly are possible today, so I need to know when was this certification launched. Oh, it was in early 2021. Yeah, I needed to be a lot more specific; which week? And then people look at me very strangely and here we are.The Systems Administrator Certification was interesting because this is the first one, to my knowledge, where they started doing a live lab as a—Adam: Yeah.Corey: Component of this. And I don't think it's a breach of the NDA to point out that one of the exams was, “Great. Configure CloudWatch out of the box to do this thing that it's supposed to do out of the box.” And I've got to say that making the service do what it's supposed to do with no caveats is probably the sickest shade I've ever seen anyone throw at AWS, like, configuring the service is so bad that it is going to be our test to prove you know what you're doing. That is amazing.Adam: [laugh]. Yeah, I don't have any shade through I'm not as good with the, like, ability to come off, like, witty and kind while still criticizing things. So, I generally just try not to because I'm bad at it. [laugh].Corey: It's why I generally advise people don't try, in seriousness. It's not that people can't be clever; it's that the failure mode of clever is ‘asshole' and I'm not a big fan of making people feel worse based upon the things that I say and do. It's occasionally I wind up getting yelled at by Amazonians saying that the people who built a service didn't feel great about something I said, and my instinctive immediate reaction is, “Oh, shit, that wasn't my intention. How did I screw this up?” Given a bit of time, I realized that well hang on a minute because I'm not—they're not my target audience. I'm trying to explain this to other customers.And, on some level, if you're going to charge tens of millions of dollars a month for a service or more, maybe make a better one, not for nothing. So, I see both sides of it. I'm not intentionally trying to cause pain, but I'm also not out here insulting people individually. Like, sometimes people make bad decisions, sometimes individually, sometimes in a group. And then we have a service name we have to live with, and all right, I guess I'm going to make fun of that forever. It's fun that keeps it engaging for me because otherwise, it's boring.Adam: No, I hear you. No, and somebody's got to do it. I'm glad you do it and do it so well because, I mean, you got to keep them honest. Like, that's the thing. Keep AWS in check.Corey: Something that I went through somewhat recently was a bit of an awakening. I have no problem revisiting old opinions and discovering that huh, I no longer agree with it; it's time to evolve that opinion. The CDK specifically was one of those where I looked at it and thought this thing looks a little hokey. So, I started using it in Python and sure enough, the experience was garbage. So cool, the CDK is a piece of crap. There we go. My job is easy.I was convinced to take a second look at it via TypeScript, a language I do not know and did not have any previous real experience with. So, I spent a few days just powering through it, and now I'm a convert. I think it's amazing. It is my default go-to for building AWS infrastructure. And all it took was a little bit of poking and prodding to get me to change my mind on that. You've taken it to another level and you started actively contributing to the AWS CDK. What was your journey with that, honestly, remarkable piece of software?Adam: Yeah, so I started contributing to CDK when I was actually doing a lot of Python development. So, I worked with a company that was doing—there was a Python shop. So actually, the first thing I contributed was a Python function construct, which is sort of the equivalent of the Node.js function construct, which like, you can just basically point at a TypeScript file and it transpiles it, bundles it, and does all that, right? So, it makes it easy to deploy TypeScript as a Lambda function.Well, I mean, it ends up being a JavaScript Lambda function, but anyway, that was the Python function construct. And then I sort of got really into it. So, I got pretty hooked on using the CDK in every place that I could. I'm a huge fan, and I do primarily write in TypeScript these days. I love being able to write TypeScript front-end and back, so built a lot of, like, Next.JS front-ends, and then I'm building back-ends with CDK TypeScript.Yeah, I've had, like, a lot of conversations about CDK. I think there's definitely a group that's sort of, against the CDK, if you're thinking in terms of, like, beginners. And I do see where, for people who aren't as familiar with AWS, or maybe this is their entry point into cloud development, it does a lot of things that maybe you're not aware of that, you know, you're now kind of responsible for. So, it's deploying—like, it makes it really easy to write, like, three lines of TypeScript that stand up an entire VPC with all this configuration and Managed NAT Gateways and [laugh] everything else. And you may not be aware of all the things you just stood up.So, CloudFormation maybe is a little more—sort of gives you that better visibility into what you're creating. So, I've definitely seen that pushback. But I think for people who really, like, have built a lot of applications on AWS, I think the CDK is just such a time-saver. I mean, I spend so much less time building the same things in the CDK versus CloudFormation. I'm a big fan.Corey: For me, I've learned enough about JavaScript to be dangerous and it seems like TypeScript is more or less trying to automate a bunch of people's jobs away, which is basically, from I can tell, their job is to go on the internet and complain about someone's JavaScript. So great, that that's really all it does is it complains, “Oh, this ambiguous. You should be more specific about it.” And great. Awesome. I still haven't gotten into scenarios where I've been caught out by typing issues, and very often I find that it just feels like sheer bloodymindedness, but I smile, nod, bend the knee and life goes on.Adam: [laugh]. When you've got a project that's, like, I don't know, a few months old—or better, a few years old—and you need to do, like, major refactoring, that's when TypeScript really saves you just a ton of time. Like, when you can make a change in a type or in actual implementation stuff and then see the ripple effects and then sort of go around the codebase and fix those things, it's just a lot easier than doing it in JavaScript and discovering stuff at runtime. So, I'm a big TypeScript fan. I don't know where it's all headed. I know there's people that are not fans of, like, transpiling your Lambda functions, for instance. Like, why not just ship good JavaScript? And I get that case, too. Yeah, but I've definitely—I felt the productivity boost, I guess—if that's the thing—from TypeScript.Corey: For me, I'm still at a point where I'm learning the edges of where things start and where they stop. But one of the big changes I made was that I finally, after 15 years, gave up my beloved Vim as my editor for this and started using VS Code. Because the reasons that I originally went with Vi were understandable when you realize what I was. I'm always going to be remoting into network gear or random—on maintained Unix boxes. Vi is going to be everywhere on everything and that's fine.Yeah, I don't do that anymore, and increasingly, I find that everything I'm writing is local. It is not something that is tied to a remote thing that I need to login and edit by hand. At that point, we are in disaster area. And suddenly it's nice. I mean things like tab completion, where it just winds up completing the rest of the variable name or, once you enable Copilot and absolutely not CodeWhisperer yet, it winds up you tab complete your entire application. Why not? It's just outsourcing it to Stack Overflow without that pesky copy and paste step.Adam: Yeah, I don't know how in the weeds you want to get on your p—I don't know, in terms of technical stuff, but Copilot both blows me away—there are days where it autocompletes something that I just, I can't fathom how—it pulled in not just, like, the patterns that it found, obviously, in training, but, like, the context in the file I'm working and sort of figured out what I was trying to do. Sometimes it blows me away. A lot of times, though, it frustrates me because of TypeScript. Like, I'm used to Typescript and types saving me from typing a lot. Like, I can tab-complete stuff because I have good types defined, right, or it's just inferred from the libraries I'm using.It's tough though when GitHub is fighting with TypeScript and VS Code. But it's funny that you came from Vim and you now live in VS Code. I really am trying to move from VS Code to, like, the Vim world, mostly because of Twitch streamers that blow my mind with what they can do in Vim [laugh] and how fast they can move. I do—every time I move my hand, like, over to the arrow keys, I feel a little sad and I wish I just did Vim.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lambda Cloud. They offer GPU instances with pricing that's not only scads better than other cloud providers, but is also accessible and transparent. Also, check this out, they get a lot more granular in terms of what's available. AWS offers NVIDIA A100 GPUs on instances that only come in one size and cost $32/hour. Lambda offers instances that offer those GPUs as single card instances for $1.10/hour. That's 73% less per GPU. That doesn't require any long term commitments or predicting what your usage is gonna look like years down the road. So if you need GPUs, check out Lambda. In beta, they're offering 10TB of free storage and, this is key, data ingress and egress are both free. Check them out at lambdalabs.com/cloud. That's l-a-m-b-d-a-l-a-b-s.com/cloud.Corey: There are people who have just made it into an entire lifestyle, on some level. And I'm fair to middling; I've known people who are dark wizards at it. In practice, I found that my productivity was never constrained by how quickly I can type. It's one of those things where it's, I actually want to stop and have my brain catch up sometimes, believe it or not, for those who follow me on Twitter. It's the idea of wanting to make sure that I am able to intelligently and rationally wrap my head around what it is I'm doing.And okay, just type out a whole bunch of boilerplate is, like, the least valuable use of anything and that is where I find things like Copilot working super well, where I, if I'm doing CloudFormation, for example, the fact that it tab-completes all the necessary attributes and can go back and change them or whatnot, that's an enormous time saver. Same story with the CDK, although with some constructs, it doesn't quite understand which ones get certain values to it. And I really liked the idea behind it. I think this is in some ways, the future of IDEs, to a point.Adam: Oh, for sure. I think, like, the case, you call that with CloudFormation, you don't have really typeahead in VS Code, at least I'm not using anything. Maybe there are extensions that give you that in VS Code. But to have Copilot fill in required prompts on a CloudFormation template, that's a lifesaver. Because I just, every time I write CloudFormation, I've just got the docs up and I'm copying stuff I've done before or whatever; like, to save that time it's huge. But CodeWhisperer, not so much? Is it not, I guess, up to snuff? I haven't seen it or played with it at all.Corey: It's still very early days and it hasn't had exposure outside of Amazonian codebases to my understanding, so it's, like, “Learn to code like an Amazonian.” And you can fill in your own joke here on that one. I imagine it's like—isn't that—aren't they primarily a Java shop, for one? And all right. It turns out most of my code doesn't need to operate the way that there's does.Adam: I didn't know that they were training it just internally. Like, I'm assuming Copilot is trained on, like, Stack Overflow or something, right? Or just all of GitHub, I guess.Corey: And GitHub and a bunch of other things, and people are yelling at them for it, and I haven't been tracking that. But honestly, the CodeWhisperer announcement taught me things about Copilot, which is weird, which tells me that none of these companies are great at explaining this. Like I can just write a comment in this of, “Add an S3 bucket,” and then Copilot will tab-complete the entirety of adding an S3 bucket, usually even secure, which is awesome. They also fix the early Copilot teething problems of tab-completing people's AWS API credentials. You know, the—yeah, they've fixed a lot of that, thankfully.Adam: Yeah.Corey: But it's still one of those neat things that you can just basically start—it gets a little bit closer to describe what you want the application to do and then it'll automatically write it for you on the back-end. Sure, sometimes it makes naive decisions that do not bear out, but again, it's still early days. I'm optimistic.Adam: Yeah, that reminds me of, like, the, I mean, the serverless cloud, so serverless framework folks, like, what they're doing where they're sort of inferring your infrastructure based on you just write an app and it sort of creates the infrastructure as code for you, or just sort of infers it all from your code. So, if you start using a bucket, it'll create a bucket for that. That definitely seems to be a movement as well, where just do less as a developer [laugh] seems to be the theme.Corey: Yeah, just move up the stack. We see this time and time again. I mean, look at the—I use this analogy from time to time from the sysadmin world, but in the late-90s, if you wanted to build a web server, you needed a spare week and an intimate knowledge of GCC compiler flags. In time, it became oh, great, now it's rpm install, then yum install, then ensure present with something like Puppet, and then Docker has it, and now it's just a checkbox on the S3 page, and you're running a static site. Things don't get harder with time, and I don't think that as a developer, your time is best spent writing by hand the proper syntax for a for loop or whatnot.It's not the differentiated value. Talk to me instead about what you want that thing to do. That was my big problem with Lambda when it first came out and I spent two weeks writing my first Lambda function—because I'm bad at programming—where I had to learn the exact format of expected for input and output, and now any Lambda function I write takes me a couple of minutes to write because I'm also bad at programming and don't know what tests are.Adam: [laugh]. Tests are overrated, I don't spend a lot of time writing t—I mean, I do a lot of stuff alone and I do a lot of stuff for myself, so in those contexts, I'm not writing tests if I'm being honest. I stream now and everyone on the stream is constantly asking, “Where are the tests?” Like, there are no tests. I'm sorry. [laugh]. Was someone else's stream.Corey: Oh yeah, it used to be though, that you had to be a little sneakier to have other people do work for you. Copilot makes it easier and presumably CodeWhisperer will, too. Used to be that if AWS launched new service and I didn't know how to configure it, all I would do is restrict a role down to only being able to work with that service, attach that to a user and then just drop the credentials on Twitter or GitHub. And I waited 20 minutes and I came back and sure enough, someone configured it and was already up and mining Bitcoin. So, turn that off, take what they built, and off the production with it. Problem solved. Oh, and rotate those credentials, unless you enjoy pain. Problem solved. The end. And I don't know if it's a best practice, but it sure was effective.Adam: Yeah, that would do it. Well, they're just like scanners now, right, like they're just scanning GitHub public repos for any credentials that are leaked like that, and they're available within seconds. You can literally, like, push a public repo with credentials and it is being [laugh] used within minutes. It's nuts.Corey: GitHub has some automatic back channel thing—I believe; I haven't done an experiment lately, but I believe that AWS will intentionally shoot down the credential as soon as it gets reported, which is kind of amazing. I really should do some more experiments with it just to see how disastrous this can get.Adam: Yeah. No, I'd be curious. Please let me know. I guess you'll tweet about it so I'll see it.Corey: Can I borrow your account for a few minutes?Adam: Yeah. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, it's fun. Now, the secret to my 17 Ways to Run Containers On AWS is in almost every case, those containers can be crypto miners, so it's not just about having too many services do the same thing; it's the attack surface continues to grow and expand in the fullness of time. I'm not saying this is right or wrong; it is what it is, but it's also something that I think people have an understated appreciation for.Let's change topic a little bit. Something you've been doing lately and talking about is the idea of building a course on AWS. You're clearly capable of doing the engineering work. That's not in question. You've been a successful consultant for years, which tells me you also know how to deliver software that meets customer requirements, as opposed to, “Well, the spec was shitty, but I wrote it anyway,” because you don't last long as a consultant if you enjoy being able to afford to eat if that's the direction you go in. Now, you're drifting toward becoming a teacher. Tell me about that. First, what makes you think that's something you're good at?Adam: So, I don't know. I don't know that I'm good at it and I guess I'll find out. I've been streaming, like, on Twitch just my work days, and that's been early signs that I think I'm okay at it, at least. I think it's very different, obviously, like, a self-paced course are going to be very different from streaming for hours, so there's a lot more editing and thoughtfulness involved, but I do think, like, I've always wanted to teach. So, even before I got into technology—I was pretty late into technology; it was after high school. Like back in high school, I always thought I wanted to be a professor.I just enjoyed, I guess the idea of presenting ideas in ways that people understood. And I live in an area—so I live in the Ozarks, it's not a very tech literate area. It became, like, this thing where I felt like I could really explain technology to people who are non-technical. And that's not necessarily what my course—what I'm aiming to do. I'm trying to teach web developers how to leverage AWS, and then sort of get out of the maybe front-end only or maybe traditional web frameworks—like, they've only worked with stuff that they deploy to Heroku or whatever—trying to teach that crowd, how to leverage AWS and all these wonderful primitives that we have.So, that's not exactly the same thing, but that's sort of like, I feel like I do have the ability to translate technology to non-technical folks. And then I guess, like, for me, at this stage of my career, you know, I've done a lot of work for a company, for startups, for individual clients, and it feels very, like—I just always feel like I'm going in a hole. Like, I feel like, I'm doing this little thing and I'm serving this one customer, but the idea of being able to, I guess, serve more people and sort of spread my reach, the idea of creating something that I can share with a lot of developers who would maybe benefit from it, it just feels better, I guess. [laugh]. I don't know exactly all the reasons why that feels better, but like, at the end of the day, my consulting kind of feels like this thing I do because I just need money.And now that I need money less and less, I just feel like I'd rather do stuff that I actually am excited about. I'm actually really excited about the outcomes for creating a course where, you know, I think I can maybe—my style of teaching or something could resonate with some group of people. Yeah, so that's it. It's AWS for web devs. The thought is that I'm going to create courses after this. Like, I hope to move into more education, less consulting. That's where I'm at.Corey: I would say you're probably selling yourself fairly short. I've seen a lot of the content you've put out over the years and I learned a lot from it every time. I think that there are some folks who put courses out where, one, they don't have the baseline knowledge around what it is that they're teaching, it just feels like a grift, and another failure mode is that people know how to do the thing, but they have no idea how to teach it to someone who isn't them. And there's nothing inherently wrong with not knowing how to teach; it is its own distinct skill. The problem is when you don't recognize that about yourself and in turn, wind up having some somewhat significant challenges.Adam: Yeah. No, I know that one of the struggles is, I work with pretty obscure technologies on AWS. Not obscure, but like, I have a very specific way I build APIs on AWS and I don't know that's generally, if you're taking a bunch of web developers and trying to move them into AWS is probably not the stack that I use. So, that is part of it, but that's also kind of to my benefit, I guess. It works for me a little bit in that I'm less familiar with maybe the more beginner-friendly way to enter into AWS.It's been years, so I think I can kind of come at it a little fresh and that'll help me produce a course that maybe meets them where they're at better. Yeah, the grifting thing, I'm definitely sensitive to just this idea of putting out a course. It was hard for me to really go out there and say I was making a course, even on Twitter, because I just feel like there's, like, some stereotype—I don't know, there's an association with that, for me at least, for my perception of course creation. But I know that there are people who've done it right and do it for the right reasons. And I think to the extent that I could hit that, you know, both those things, do it right and do it for the right reasons, then it's exciting to me. And if I can't, and it turned out not good at teaching, then I'll move on and do more consulting, I guess, [laugh] or streaming on Twitch.Corey: You are very clearly self-aware enough that if you put something out and it isn't effective, I have zero doubt that you won't just stop selling it, you'll take it down and reach out to people. Because you, more so than most, seem very cognizant of the fact that a poor experience learning something does not in most people's cases, translate to, “Oh, my teacher is shitty.” Instead, it's, “Oh, I'm bad at this and I'm not smart enough to figure it out.” That's still the problem I run into with bad developer experience on a bunch of things that get launched. If I have a bad time, I assume it's, “Oh, I'm stupid. I wish someone had told me.”And first, they did, secondly, it's the sense that no, it's just not being very clearly explained and the folks who wrote the documentation or talking about it are too close to what they've built to understand what it's like to look at this thing from fresh eyes. They're doing a poor job of setting the stage to explain the value it brings and in what scenario, you should be using this.Adam: It's a long process. I want to launch the course in the fall, but in the process of building out the course, I'm really going to be doing workshops and individual—like, I just have a lot of friends that are web developers and I'm going to be kind of getting on with them and teaching them this material and just trying to see what resonates. I'm going to a lot of trouble, I guess, to make sure I'm not just putting out a thing just to say I made a course. Like, I don't actually want to say I made a course, so if I'm going to do it, it's like most things I do I really kind of throw myself into. And I know if I spend enough energy and effort, I think I can make something that at least helps some people. I guess we'll see.Corey: I look forward to it. Any idea as far as rough timeline goes?Adam: Yeah, I hope to launch in the fall. But if it takes longer, I don't know. I've heard people say, to do a course right, you should spend a year on it. And maybe that's what I do.Corey: No, I love that answer. It's great. You're just saying I want to launch in the fall, which is sufficiently vague, and if that winds up not being vague enough, you could always qualify with, “Well, I didn't say what year.”Adam: [laugh].Corey: So, great you know, it's always going to be the fall somewhere.Adam: [laugh]. I just know, like, when someone says you should spend a year I just do things very hard. Like I really, like, throw a lot of time and obsess, like, I'm very obsessive. And when I do something, it's hard for me imagine doing any one thing for a year because I burn myself out. Like, I obsess very hard for usually, like, three months, it's usually, like, a quarter, and then I fall off the face of the earth for three months and I basically mope around the house and I'm just too tired to do anything else. So, I think right now I'm streaming and that's kind of been my obsession. I'm three weeks in so we got a few more months and then we'll see, [laugh] we'll see how I maintain it.Corey: Well, I look forward to seeing how it comes out. You'll have to come back and let us know when it's ready for launch.Adam: Yeah, that sounds great.Corey: I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time and taking me through what you're up to. If people want to learn more, what's the best place for them to find you?Adam: Yeah, I think Twitter. I mean, I mostly hang out on Twitter, and these days Twitch. So, Twitter my handle—I guess you'll put it, like, in the thing description or something. It's like the phonetic—Corey: Oh, we will absolutely toss it into the show notes, where useful content goes to linger.Adam: [laugh]. It's like A-E-D-U-H-M. It's like a—it's the phonetic way of saying Adam, I guess. And then on Twitch, I'm adamelmore. So, those are the two places I spend most my time.Corey: And off to the show notes it goes. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate it, Adam.Adam: Thank you so much for having me, Corey. I really appreciate it.Corey: Adam Elmore, independent AWS consultant. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an insulting comment that attempts to teach us exactly what we got wrong, but fails utterly because you're terrible at teaching things.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Adam Kenney is Chief Product Officer at Numerated, which helps banks and credit unions transform how they lend to businesses. Chad talks with Adam about what institutional banks and credit unions are like as a market and customers and what sales cycles look like, going from 17 to more than 130 customers quickly, and the scaling challenges they faced, and how the pandemic affected them as a company. Numerated (https://www.numerated.com/) Follow Numerated on Twitter (https://twitter.com/numeratedgt), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4igz9AZqOXJlZxtXUBO-1Q), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/numerated/). Follow Adam on Twitter (https://twitter.com/ademski) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-kenney-ab-cmu/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me, today is Adam Kenney, Chief Product Officer at Numerated, which helps banks and credit unions transform how they lend to businesses. Adam, thanks so much for joining me. ADAM: Thank you, Chad. Thanks for having me. CHAD: Let's dive into Numerated a little bit more. How do you help banks and credit unions lend to businesses? ADAM: I think we're in the middle of what is a pretty meaningful transformation in terms of how businesses are expecting to get access to credit. Really what they want is something that is fast, easy, convenient, largely driven off of the change that has happened in the retail space over the last 10 to 15 years. And in many ways, business lending is still catching up to that, and so our focus is doing that. It's helping the banks and credit unions really change how they interact with their business customers. We use a combination of data and great experiences to make that process as seamless as possible. We've been noted to, using the combination of data and technology, help banks increase the number of loans that they can do with their existing staff by as much as fourfold. We are also noted for inventing what we like to refer to as the three-minute business loan. It's one of the things we were written up on in the Wall Street Journal back in our days in Eastern Labs, where we've been able to get businesses from the point of application all the way to a funded loan in less than three minutes. And that's a process that historically has taken as long as three weeks. And so really excited by the ways that we're able to really help change how banks themselves can look at their operations. But more than anything, it's how banks are able to rethink and change how they interact with businesses and help the businesses in your communities grow and get access to the credit that they need. CHAD: So from a digital product perspective, there's a piece of a product there that banks are actually taking on and white-labeling that provides a lending experience for their clients, right? ADAM: That's correct. I mean, we're a cloud-based SaaS system. But you're right; they branded as their own. And so if you're going to Eastern Bank's website and clicking through and ultimately going through the application process with us, it's going to look and feel like it's just Eastern's website. And all of the interactions that you have with Eastern or any of our customers are going to feel that way as well. So yes, it is a white-label solution that we sell to the banks, and they provide to their customers. CHAD: The actual banking industry is not one that I've had a lot of experience in. And so I'm curious what institutional banks, credit unions, that kind of thing what they're like as a market or as customers and what the sales cycle looks like and those kinds of things. ADAM: It's about as varied as an industry can get, I'll tell you that. [laughs] You have to remember that banks and credit unions can be as small as having a few hundred million dollars in assets, maybe as small as 100 million. And in some of our customers' cases, they're de novo banks, and they're just getting started. And they range up to multiple billions of dollars in assets. And so, these are organizations that scale dramatically. Each of them have their own problems. They're also going to be made up of very different tech-minded individuals. You're going to have some smaller institutions that are basically managing a book of business that's been a book of business for close to a century and are interested in how technology can make them more efficient. But they are not the technologists that you and I would be used to working with on a day-to-day basis. And then, of course, you have people like ourselves who are really trying to, from inside the bank, change what banking is to their customers. And so, it's a very diverse industry in terms of what they're looking to accomplish. We've even come up with recently this framework around how we think about and really talk to our customers about how they transform and the levels of transformation that they can go through. And for us, it's essentially a four-level transformation starting with very small and pointed technology innovations that allow them to drive innovation in very fragmented bits and pieces, for lack of a better term, up to and including they're going to transform everything or become a digital bank. And you can imagine there are lots of stops along the way in terms of where a bank is and where they want to end up as part of their strategy. CHAD: From a product perspective and managing change, do you get a lot of custom features from individual, either clients or potential clients? And how do you manage that if you do? ADAM: The way I think about it is that we certainly get a lot of requests from our customers, and every customer likes to think that they are different and unique. In reality, there's a strong theme to almost all of the requests that we get. And personally, I think that's part of what our job is as a product leader is to really understand how to create themes out of the individual requests and provide a platform back to the market that addresses as many of those in a more holistic way and drives value across not just the individual asks but across all of the customers. And so yeah, there's some uniqueness. And certainly, we need to provide a platform that allows for that. So as an example, every bank has a slightly different view into how they want their credit policy to work and be implemented, but the framework around how you make credit decisions, how I get data into the platform. How do I create a credit matrix? And how do I then decide the exact offer terms to drive out of that? Like, that's a standard capability. And so we're innovating on that based on the individual features, but it's really not with an eye towards providing a specific custom feature to individual customers. It's more providing a flexible platform that allows them to configure the nuance but in a general theme that's going to help them be a better business. CHAD: So in the U.S., we had a specific program launched, PPP loans, in the pandemic to help support businesses. And I know thoughtbot we participated in that and went through that process. I don't think our bank was using Numerated. But I know that the bank really maybe...because they weren't using Numerated, [laughs] they needed to bring together an entirely new application interface very, very quickly in order to be able to take our application to that. And I think that Numerated was right there at the start of that. ADAM: Yes. CHAD: Talk about something custom maybe quickly. ADAM: [laughs] CHAD: What did pulling that together look like? ADAM: So maybe to take a step back if I could first and just paint a picture for you because you're right, it was kind of a unique and incredible period of time. We were fortunate in our line of work because we are all about helping banks transform how they lend to businesses. We had the base platform already built and established that allowed businesses to apply for loans on our platform. Even before the pandemic, we were one of the leading technology platforms for processing SBA loans. So we were uniquely positioned for the opportunity as it results to PPP. At the start of the pandemic, we had approximately 17 customers using our platform. Fast forward six months later, we had 135. And so, to your point around there were a large number of institutions looking for a new application solution overnight, I think that shows you how aggressively banks needed a solution. And there was an opportunity for us to offer our platform to be that. I think the other thing to recognize as part of the backdrop anyway is this was a crazy time if you think back to where we were in the pandemic. No one knew what life was going to look like in a week. And most businesses, especially smaller ones, didn't know if they were going to have a business. And so for us, that also provided the opportunity and maybe a little bit of the confidence in saying, "You know, we have nothing to lose. We're well-positioned. And what else are we going to do? Because it's not like people are making other loans for the next couple of months. Let's just go own this". And so I think it was the combination of us making that recognition, having a really good base platform that had familiarity with the SBA, had familiarity with business lending, and with a team that then could really acutely focus on solving this one problem for as many customers as possible. And by the way, have the emotional impact of not only helping banks but knowing that we're basically helping hundreds of thousands of businesses stay afloat through probably the craziest time in our country's history. And so that's really what got us going. And then there was a ton of work to your point around customization around building out the platform. But the one thing we've tried to do from the beginning is hold true to some of the foundational vision that I mentioned earlier. Like, we don't want to be in the business of custom software. That's not a winning proposition for us or our customers. And so, as much as it was maybe hard at times, throughout PPP, we were always thinking about okay, so we have to make these changes to support this crazy never-before-seen lending program. But how can we do it in a way that's going to set us up to serve the businesses in a year or two when this whole pandemic thing is over? Because PPP is not going to last forever, but our customers are. The businesses are still going to need credit. So whatever we're doing as much as possible, let's be building a foundation that gets us well beyond PPP. And so we were using it as really a catalyst to build a bigger business even while we were helping customers through the pandemic. CHAD: One of the things that I really appreciated, and I have an outside perspective on it, but I really...and people can always do better. ADAM: Yes. [laughs] CHAD: But I thought it was one of the rare circumstances where everyone realized the urgency of the situation: government, banks, everybody. And there was a real willingness to realize, well, we've got to do something. If we try to figure it out all right now, it's going to take too long. So let's just do something, and we'll work out the details later. And so I think there was a willingness, and from a product perspective, my guess would be that allowed you to work iteratively too. ADAM: It did. It was [laughs], I think in some ways a blessing and a curse. CHAD: [laughs] ADAM: Because I can tell you that the number of times my team would get a set of new capabilities, which listen, were great for the customers. It made everything better for the businesses that needed help, so I would never want it any other way. But the number of times that those new capabilities were announced by the SBA on a Friday night and were expected to be live on Monday morning, let's just say it was more frequent than I would ever like to relive. [laughs] And I can remember, especially going into the second round of PPP, it just so happened that all that was happening between Thanksgiving and Christmas in a year where all families wanted to do was spend time with each other after a crazy year had gone by. But we didn't get that luxury, unfortunately. We had a job to do, and that was to make sure that we were ready for the next round. And so it did come with a lot of cost in terms of we had to work really hard to make it happen. But to your point, it allowed us to iterate. And I give the government credit, too, particularly the SBA. They could have, for example, just launched the program and then launched more money into it and stood still, but they didn't do that. To your comment, they had to get live as quick as possible. And so that first round of PPP, there were more technology hiccups. The SBA had some volume constraints. They couldn't really handle the performance. We ended up having to govern our application submissions because otherwise, the SBA couldn't handle it. There were other challenges in terms of how we were validating data. But that got better month by month. And certainly, by the time we got to the forgiveness part of the process and then the next round of PPP the following winter, they actually invested in completely ripping out their legacy API and providing us in the tech community a modern RESTful interface that was much easier, much more performant. And so, even though the volume got even crazier as we went through the program, it actually became easier for us to deliver. The first round, we were literally working around the clock because the SBA was having issues. We couldn't get enough documents through DocuSign and whatever else. We did, I want to say, close to 3 times the volume in the next round a year later but at about 15% of the energy because we had just improved that much in less than a year. And it wasn't just Numerated; it was Numerated working with our partners in government and elsewhere to just get the process that much smoother for our customers. CHAD: Were there things that you needed to do at Numerated? I mean, to go from 17 customers to more than 130 that quickly, I assume that there were some scaling challenges for you along the way. ADAM: There was. And I will say this: we were blessed to have a really good technical infrastructure in place that allowed us to scale on the infrastructure side without a ton of problems. We were able to essentially stand up new environments in our infrastructure relatively quickly and easily and even handle the peak volume of PPP, which was exponentially higher than anything we had ever done on the platform. That was not a problem for us. Where we had to scale is in two areas, one from a technical standpoint was how we were interacting with our technical partners. I mentioned already the need to govern how we were submitting applications to the SBA. We worked very closely with DocuSign to essentially put rate caps on how many documents we were generating at any given time and essentially spread the volume because none of us had dealt with that or dealt with that kind of volume before. And that's where we had technical challenges were in the interfaces and working with partners to make sure everything lined up well. So that was one area, got through it pretty well. And ultimately, like I said, for the second round, we were smooth sailing. The other area to your point around standing up all the banks was how we implemented the customers. Our typical implementation cycles going into the pandemic were multiple months. We had to stand up all over the PPP banks in less than two weeks. And so that took a combination of...I'll call it technical delivery. So we essentially created a cookie-cutter deployment and then used a deployment strategy to push that to all of the new customers all at once that we didn't have before. And we were able to create that relatively quickly. The other was we had to take a much harder stance with our customers than we had ever done around look; everyone's getting the same thing. It's government-mandated anyway, but it's going to be exactly the same. And other than the white-labeling that we, of course, gave everybody, you might want slightly different process around the workflow, around the approval. You're going to have to take the same thing that everybody else is because we just don't have time to configure the nuance across 100 banks. And so luckily, to your earlier comment around, everybody just realized we were in this unique time, we do what we have to do, and we got through it. Our banks were very willing to do that. But that was the other change we had to do to really see this scale through. Mid-Roll Ad: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoff CHAD: If you're comfortable talking about architecture a little bit, do you have a shared sort of platform that everyone is on? Or, for each of the customers you have, do they have their own instance? ADAM: So we've made the decision, mostly because of our regulated industry; we felt like it was safer, so each customer gets their own database. We do keep everyone's data completely isolated to protect their information and give them the utmost confidence that it is protected. But we have a shared application layer. And so, our web servers are shared multi-tenant instances. And so it's essentially a combined environment where we're both sharing some resources but then also deploying individual databases and then the configuration because outside of PPP, it is unique bank by bank. And so, the configuration gets deployed within each bank's individual environment. CHAD: Cool. I've worked on systems like that before, and they can certainly present...especially when you need to scale them quickly, and you've got a lot of new customers being added. You better hope that it's been automated. [laughs] ADAM: Yes. And luckily, we had a good amount of automation in place during PPP or even going into it, I should say, but of course, PPP stretched that. And so we've just continued to get better and better as a couple of years have gone by. CHAD: So the second PPP came through. It's in the forgiveness period now, so that's winding down. So Numerated were at that point you alluded to earlier, which is when you were doing PPP, you realized it's not going to be around forever. Let's lay the groundwork now to help customers in the future. We're sort of at that point now, right? ADAM: Yes. CHAD: So what does that look like for you? ADAM: So it's essentially expanding the portfolio of loans that our customers can leverage our platform to execute. And maybe to say that better, if you look back prior to PPP, we got our start with small small business lending. And what I mean by that is loans under $250,000 that can be highly automated. That's where Numerated got its start working with Eastern first 15 customers, saw the value in getting extreme efficiency and delivering essentially capital to their businesses in a number of days instead of weeks. That's what we were great at, very similar to what PPP was, by the way, which was getting money to people in a number of hours in some cases. But we knew that that was never the vision for what we wanted to be or what our banks needed in the business banking segment. Ultimately, they want that same level of use efficiency experience for all of their business loans. But in order to support that, there are a number of capabilities that we needed to build into our platform to handle that. Underwriting gets increasingly complicated when you are underwriting loans at 500,000, a million, or $5 million. The businesses get more complicated. The collateral gets more complicated. The entire process just becomes more sophisticated. But that's what banks want, and by the way, that's what businesses want. They don't want to have a great experience when they're a little bit smaller, and they've taken out a $100,000 loan and then have the experience be crap two years later when they come back, and they've taken out a million-dollar loan. And so, that has always been our vision. We've had the fortune of being able to do really well on PPP and essentially just accelerate that vision. And so that's what we're working on right now is really building a loan origination system that allows our customers to transform how they lend to businesses in entirety. We have been building out all of the sophistication I mentioned around underwriting. We have recently acquired a company called Fincura based out of the Boston area. They automate spreading. If you're not familiar with what spreading is, it basically takes either paper or PDF versions of a bank's financial statements, and it turns them into really critical financial ratios that help banks understand the creditworthiness and the risk associated with the business. So you can imagine what that is. It's taking OCR, technology, AI, and basically taking what were PDFs and converting them into scores that can then be used to automate and drive efficiency in the credit decision, again, all part of being able to then really transform how banks are doing all of their business lending. But that's what we're working on now, converting all of the PPP customers to use the non-PPP, for lack of a better phrase, parts of the platform and really helping them change how their businesses look at them in terms of the opportunity to access credit. CHAD: So I think it's probably worth noting you made the decision to join Numerated right before the pandemic hit. ADAM: That's correct. CHAD: And so you joined when? ADAM: My last day at my previous company happened to be the day we closed the office due to the pandemic. I had obviously made the decision prior to that. But then, my first day on the job at Numerated was the second day of PPP. So essentially, you know, call it a week after everybody had gone home for what became the better part of the next year to two years. CHAD: So I assume making a decision to join a new company, you're going to be the chief product officer. You've had a lot of conversations about what the vision is and what you're going to do. And you're going into a business where hey, there are 17 customers, and we're going to scale. But you probably didn't guess what was going to happen ended up happening. ADAM: No. [laughs] CHAD: So I imagine like part of your vision for what you were going to do both as a company and as an individual must have gotten put on hold. ADAM: It's funny, yes and no. So I will say no to your lead in there. There were certainly times before I started where I was calling Dan our founder and CEO. And I was probing him and pushing him like, is this still a thing? [laughs] Are we really going to go do this? Not realizing what PPP was and really what it was going to mean for our business. So there was that period of time where I wasn't sure. I knew it was going to be different, but I didn't know what that meant yet. Once I understood what was happening and what we were doing, I actually never felt like it was putting anything on hold. And I can come back to the fact that it put some elements of our business on hold. But for me and why I joined and the vision I had, I was coming to help the team really expand what the platform could do for banks and their business customers and to accelerate the number of ways we could help. I have prior experience working at Capital One and Pegasystems with a lot of the systems and the processes that we were helping to reinvent at Numerated. And so, my vision was always to come and build off of those past experiences and accelerate what we were doing in this specific small business segment. PPP, in a lot of ways, just accelerated that. It took what would have probably been three to five years' worth of market adoption in terms of understanding what digital transformation was going to look like, getting customers fully comfortable with a more digital experience, getting comfortable with a more data-driven approach to decision-making. And the pandemic forced all of that to happen in weeks. CHAD: Well, people couldn't even go into the bank to turn in their paperwork. It had to be done remotely. The staff wasn't there either. ADAM: And the staff no longer could look at paper financial statements because they couldn't get paper financial statements. And so everything changed overnight. One of our customers has told us at multiple customer events since he's like, "You guys, you let the rabbit out of the hat, and it's not going back." It just changed overnight what was happening in the industry. And then, for us, it gave us all of this extra opportunity to invest and invest more in what we wanted to go do. Our team, when I joined, was about 40 to 45 people. Our team now is 145 people. And our engineering team went from a little over 20 to just under 60. So we have exponentially changed the rate in which we're innovating and going after things. And so, for me, it's just accelerated and made things more exciting. The one other comment I'll make in terms of putting things on hold it did put some elements of the business on hold because every one of our customers stopped thinking about what I'll call traditional business lending and focused 100% for the better part of 18 months on getting through the pandemic. And even once PPP was done, there was another six to nine months where banks were trying to figure out, are we really out of the pandemic? Are we ready to start lending the way we used to? Do we need to rethink risk? Because these businesses are all different now than they were two years ago. The things that made a business risky two years ago are different now. And so there was also a little bit of a hangover as our customers internalized within their own walls what it meant to get back into lending. And so, it did put some elements of that on hold. We were fortunate, though, that we grew so much through PPP. And we actually kept adding what I'll call core customers, not just PPP customers, during that period that our growth actually accelerated. And it's been really good for us. CHAD: That's great. You mentioned the team growth that you've had. Different companies are organized in different ways. As Chief Product Officer, where do you sit within the organization and relative to the engineering team? ADAM: So at Numerated, my responsibility includes all of the product management as well as the engineering organization. So I'm responsible with my teams for everything from initial product strategy, the product design. I have all of the UX and design team as well as then all of the execution, the delivery of the platform as well. CHAD: So does that mean that there's VP of engineering in your organization or some sort of person like that that's working closely with you? ADAM: Sort of. So I have...basically, it divides more at the director level. So I have a couple of VPs that work for me that have a combination of product and engineering, both experience, expertise, and responsibility. But then their teams have product managers, and then we have directors of engineering that then manage their individuals from teams. I also have a group of former bankers. They're product managers but act as consultants to those organizations. And that's where we get all of our industry expertise. They've worked with the SBA. They've worked in credit offices, and they really help to influence the product roadmap across those teams as well. CHAD: So the entire engineering structure also being under the chief Product Officer, I would say that and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's probably not how the majority of companies organize it. Do you agree with that? ADAM: I have seen both, but I would agree that it is not the majority. CHAD: I would say if there is a majority, and I agree, I've seen both too, but you might have a CTO and then VP of engineering. And so, the engineering organization goes all the way up to the C-level. And then there's a Chief Product Officer. And here's the product management and product underneath them. Was this an intentional choice from the beginning as you scaled out the team for you to have it all live under you? ADAM: It was intentional. I will give my personal view on it. I think that as we continue to evolve as technology companies, one of the hardest things for us to achieve is alignment around vision and purpose. And that drives a level of focus that I think maximizes the ability to move the business forward. And based on that premise, the places where I've seen things work the best is when there is a focal point across product and engineering within specialization underneath. Because it drives, I think, the best alignment across the organization. I will acknowledge, however, that finding leaders that can actually operate effectively in that combined role is extremely difficult because you need people that have a high degree of engineering experience so that they actually know how to build for quality, build for scale, even for things that don't immediately impact the bottom line while having enough business acumen to understand the demands of the business and how to balance those priorities against what we need to grow the business at the same time. And so, it does create a little bit of a snowflake challenge. I cannot find or replace those roles as we grow and scale nearly as quickly as I can in a divided organization. But I have found that it does help me drive clarity of priorities and purpose and ultimately focus in the organization versus the places I've worked where that hasn't been the case. CHAD: So I guess given that, then I assume you're hiring. [laughs] ADAM: We are always hiring. [laughs] We are definitely in growth mode. And we are looking for great people that can help us to build a platform and really transform how our customers are thinking about how they lend to their businesses. CHAD: Well, I agree. I think there are different structures then that can achieve it. And also, a lot of it comes down to the people but that alignment and that understanding of design, and product, and development or engineering. And ideally, people and all of those skill sets and all those teams who get it and can balance those different priorities with the business is really important, and that alignment of vision. And so there are probably different structures to get it, but that's what you're aiming for. And I think that the structure that you've set up is one which is very helpful to getting that alignment. ADAM: Agreed. Agreed. I think that while we're on the topic of the team and the culture we're trying to build out, I'll maybe use that as a way to share a few more things that we're really driving towards. You can imagine a company that has scaled the way we have and continues to grow. That presents some other organizational challenges as well. One of my firm beliefs is the fastest way to scale is to create really strong, empowered, decentralized teams. That, again, gets back to the whole vision and focus thing. They have to be rowing in the same direction. But they have to be really independent in the day-to-day. And so we've really spent a lot of time over the last, I would say, year and a half shifting to that kind of a model to where each of the teams is really embracing what their individual accountabilities are. They are really focused on how they're delivering success for the business and are able to make a lot of the day-to-day decisions. But then it falls to management, leadership, myself to make sure that when they make those decisions, they understand the context in which we're trying to drive the business so that we can do as much as we can as fast as we can but in a way that's high quality and delivers value. CHAD: Awesome. Well, I sincerely wish you all the best in that. I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing. Thank you. ADAM: Yeah, my pleasure. I appreciate the time, and good to get to know you a little bit, Chad. CHAD: If folks want to find out more, maybe apply, follow along with you; where are all the places that they can do that? ADAM: Yeah, sure. So numerated.com is where they can go and learn more about the business, and they can learn more about where we're hiring. People should check me out on LinkedIn. That's probably where I'm the most active these days. And feel free to message me as well. I'll also give you my email address if anybody wants to reach out. It's pretty simple. It's adam@numerated.com. Whether it's opinions, thoughts, or reactions to anything that I've shared today, or you just want to build a relationship, I'd love to hear from people and get to know you a little bit better. CHAD: Wonderful. You can find links to all those things, probably not Adam's email address, in the show notes. ADAM: [laughs] CHAD: We want to protect him from those spam crawlers. But you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Adam Kenney.

Charity Wakefield's passion for the natural world shone through when we caught up at her local green space. I met the actor, environmentalist and Woodland Trust ambassador at Peckham Rye Park to talk about trees, wildlife and acting. Charity explains how nature has made her happy since the tree-climbing, den-building days of her childhood. She is concerned that people have lost their connection with the environment, but is hopeful for the future and encourages us to recognise that we can all make a difference. She believes in ‘people power'. We also talk eco-friendly fashion, filming comedy-drama The Great and climbing a tree to learn her lines in Lewisham! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Charity Wakefield is an actor, environmentalist and Woodland Trust ambassador. She starred in BBC One's production of Rapunzel, Constance in The Three Musketeers at the Bristol Old Vic, and Elaine in the Graduate at the New Vic. She had a lead role as Marianne Dashwood in Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility and has been in Doctor Who, the Halcyon, Bounty Hunters, amongst other productions. And she's now starring in the TV series, The Great about Catherine the Great. Well, I met her at her local park to talk about acting and the importance of the natural world. Charity: So now we are at Peckham Ride Park, which has been my local park for most of my time in London. I now have a baby so there's lots of kinds of mother and baby groups around the area. I have lots of friends here still. Adam: Are you a country girl or did you grow up in the city, or? Charity: Erm, I, I never thought of myself as a country girl. I did grow up though in and around East Sussex. I used to live in a couple of different places down there. We moved a bit as a kid. Adam: Sorry, why don't you, you grew up in the country, why did you not think of yourself as a… Charity: I don't know Adam: You know you thought of yourself as you felt your inner urban woman early on? Charity: I just don't think I grew up with any sense of identity if I'm honest, because I also live a little bit in Spain when I was very small. And like I said we moved around quite a lot. So actually I'm an actress and I trained at drama school and going to drama school at the time of going to university for most people if you do that, that was the first time I really had this interest to work out where I was from, or you know you kind of try to identify yourself by telling each other, and also drama school, in particular, you're looking at different kind of life experiences and personality traits, because it's material for you, right? So, you start kind of realising ‘oh I that this background or that background'. Yeah, for me, being from the countryside just meant desperate driving as soon as I can. I could drive about a week after my birthday because I had secret driving lessons with friends and my dad and stuff. Yeah, I guess I have always loved the countryside and I sort of you know had friends you know the family were farmers and we used to go and make camps in the woods. Adam: Well, that's good, and talking of woods we seem to be, what's down there? That's a very wooded area, shall we go, you lead on, but shall we go down there? Or Charity: This is the Common, this is Peckham Ride Common, and erm I think it was, has been around for at least a couple of hundred years and it's a really big open space with some really huge trees in the middle. They're probably like, lots of them are London planes and oak trees, and I think this section we're about to walk into was actually sort of closed off at the beginning I think it was a big common and this was owned by an estate. A sort of family estate and then opened a bit later which is why as you can see it is much more formal Adam: I was going to say, so we are leaving a sort of really a very large green area with the Shard poking its head above the trees, so your urban environment, but walking into this much more formal sculptured… Charity: And actually you can walk the whole perimeter of this, and this is quite close to the road here but the other side is as you can see really big open and free, so it must have been quite weird at sort of the end of the 1800s, I suppose that kind of bridge between a really rich family that owned this huge part of the park in the middle, so this is yeah, now we are under these beautiful red-leaved trees, you probably know what that tree is? [Laugh] Adam: No, no, no, no, let's not embarrass each other by [Laugh] Charity: [Laugh] Okay no tree testing Adam: No tree testing [Laugh] Charity: Okay Adam: Well, this is, this is beautiful, so let's… there's a lovely, lovely bench with a dedication actually, some flowers connected to that. So why don't we have a sit down here and just have a chat? So, first of all, you mentioned you went to drama school, what drama school was it? Charity: I went to the Oxford School of Drama, which was the smallest, most obscure place I could have probably have found [Laugh] but it probably was the best place for me actually. It's funny, sometimes what's for you won't pass you as they say, erm a tiny drama school in the middle of the north of Oxfordshire. Acting is really hard and part of it is the marathon of it and the difficulties of getting jobs and everybody says this but failing continually and feeling like you haven't actually achieved things perfectly. In the theatre that means doing a show and there being some moments during the night where you think ‘uh that didn't work out right' and you have to be that kind of person that is interested in those kinds of faults and failures and wants to try different things and fix things and part of gaining that resilience is what I think drama school is all about. Adam: I mean apart from, I do want to talk to you more about your acting, but apart from that you do have what I see as quite a close connection to nature, reading a lot of your social media and learning about your activities, so tell me a bit about that, what is it? What is that connection and why do you feel it? Charity: I think growing up, albeit in a kind of little village or a town, but kind of in the countryside it was quite… it was a bit freer back then, I think it was different days, the early 80s. being allowed to sort of wander off, with friends and go into kind of woodlands and stuff. I think, I just feel very happy when I am in nature and I am interested in the differences, everything is growing and changing all the time. And it was interesting I went to LA once, and I thought this is so strange to me because the seasons aren't so apparent. Particularly when you live in the countryside your so kind of affected by those changes and erm I really love animals and I love knowing the circle of life, like where those animals came from, how they're are fed, what they do naturally, and then getting older you start to understand a bit more about the history and human history and how we have you know got to where we are today the kind of beginnings of farming and how society functions and unfortunately we are at a point now where we've outgrown ourselves, and how do we kind of pair that back? How do we get back? Adam: When you say we've outgrown ourselves what do you mean? Charity: I think humans have outgrown ourselves in a sense I think Adam: In what sense? Charity: In the sense that we've lost track I think of the essence of how you, I think yeah, we've lost track of how life is interconnected with nature. Because we're pushing technology further and further and some people are saying the answer is to eventually get into space rockets and go and start a new community on Mars and to me that's mad because I feel like we have everything that we need on this planet. And we just need to reconnect everything. Adam: Why do you think that disconnection has happened then Charity: Yeah well, I think it's a big question. Because I think it happens on so many levels. I think that there is a disconnect with people who are very very fortunate and have a hell of a lot of money, and in some ways don't notice the effect that their companies or their personal lives might be having on the environment because they are so loaded that they get given their food people and they probably never see plastic packaging to know that it exists because they are just delivered things Adam: Right Charity: and they don't really realise the impact that they're having, they're living kind of you know the high life Adam: Sure, do you think we're all living that sort of life? Charity: No, I don't Adam: Or it's just the 1%, or the quarter of the 1%? Charity: No, I don't, I think there are lots of people that are the absolute opposite. They haven't got the time, the money and the education to be able to do anything about it even if they did notice that there is an issue. Adam: And yet it is curious that isn't it, because and yet David Attenborough the national hero, his television programmes are all watched, and you know Charity: But they're not watched by everybody. Adam: They're not watched by everybody but there seems… I mean I get the feeling that you know there's this weird thing where everybody's talking about the environment and very concerned about it, even if perhaps if we're not changing our lifestyle, but my, my sort of view is that people do get it even if they're not changing their behaviour. You, you feel differently, I think. Charity: I think that there's, I think there's lots of people on those both extremes that don't get it at all and I also see lots and lots of people living on the poverty line, particularly where I live in the Borough of Lewisham, who are, and I know some people are working crazy hours and don't have time to think about it. About any kind of impact, and certainly don't have time to do complicated recycling or and they don't have the budget to be able to shop in a kind of, what we would probably on our middle-class wage perceive as a kind of eco conscious way. And because what's difficult is even if you do do that it's very hard to sort of balance what is the best consumer choice to make. As we all know, so we're in a difficult way, but what I do believe is that I believe in people power, and I as you say David Attenborough has made a huge impact and it is much more in the mainstream, hugely so in the mainstream in the last couple of year, and I do think its down to kind of lockdown and people staying at home and having the chance to stop and think and reconnect with their immediate environment but whether that's in a high-rise flat looking out listening to the lack of airplanes, being able to hear nature more, or somebody that's got, you know, fifty acres and has decided to buy a diamond Jubilee woodland for the Woodland Trust, you know, that there, I think we are kind of you united as we are the people who had a chance to stop and listen and look and then it's about people that are in positions of power and money to give us a direction to go in. to give us a positive idea Adam: So, apart from being intellectually being engaged with this, you're worried about it, you're clearly worried about it, you do a lot of things. Charity: mmm Adam: actually, so tell me about the lots of things you do Charity: err well I really love… I've always…So, fashion is a part of my job in the sense that I have to wear lots of different clothes, and um for my work Adam: well then you were recently in The Great Charity: That's right so I do a TV show, period TV show, and so I Adam: So, there's lots of costumes Charity: there's lots of costumes, I don't really have control over where those costumes are made and bought, but sometimes I do so, for example, if I'm producing a film or if I'm in a low-budget theatre production, I might provide my own clothes for that theatre production, and if producing then I am certainly in charge of deciding where we can get clothes, so for example, we go to charity shops and second-hand places because there is so much stuff in the world already. And I try to do that in my personal life. Adam: But do you have a label, a fashion label? Charity: No, nothing like that no Adam: But you, but you talk a lot about conscientious fashion on social media Charity: Yeh, I do because erm, …. Erm I am looking for the word, influencers! And stuff like that because I get approached for things like that and so I'm very conscious that If I am going to be in front of any kind of camera people are going to make a judgment or think that might be a good idea to wear, so I try to conscious about what I'm wearing if in the public in any way. And really that's just an extension of my real life, I've always shopped in charity shops, when I was growing up that was because we didn't have any money, so my clothes were given to me by other families, or when I first started to work, which was around fourteen, I worked in a strawberry farm – that was my first job! And my second job was in another strawberry farm, picking strawberries and my third job was the same strawberry farm but in the grocery shop. Adam: Okay, you got promoted! Charity: Promoted Adam: Promoted out of the fields! Charity: Absolutely, literally up the hill Adam: and Charity: I've become extremely aware of how difficult it is to manage woodland, and I didn't even know that as a concept, I just thought that big areas or parkland or woodland or farmland, I had not concept really of how that was looked after, and that's one thing that I think is I don't know, its both inspired me and made me realise what a huge challenge it is to be able to reforest large areas and the other fact of everything being so slow – trees reaching their maturity at such a slow rate – and that being a very difficult kind of challenge to sort of ask people to become involved with because I think when you're asking people to you know kind of sympathise with a charity or donate money to a charity in some ways its more difficult to say this is an extremely slow process but we need your help urgently… so it has been interesting to learn about that side of things. And I've also been deeply shocked and saddened about how many of our ancient woodlands and hedgerows and trees that are still being cut down in this country, partly for huge roadways but partly for new buildings and farmland and that does feel quite urgent to me. But yeah I've learnt a lot. I think one of my favourite things has been seeing the tree listening which I put on my Instagram if anyone wants to have a look Adam: So, tell me about tree listening. Charity: so, there's a way to hear the water being filtered up and down trees and it's the most beautiful sound and to me, it's a sound that I could go to sleep to. I keep thinking, I must try and find if there's a recording online that I can grab and put on my phone to listen to at night-time. And it gives you that sense of the tree being alive in the here and now. Trees grow so slowly it's sometimes quite difficult to think if the as, as kind of, living in the same time zone as us. So, hearing that, that's a very present sound really, I don't know, it makes you… it makes you want to hug the tree even more [laugh] Adam: Are you a bit of a tree hugger? Charity: Yeah, yeah, I am! Adam: Do people spot you in Peckham? Strange woman hugging trees? Charity: I do sometimes do that, the weird thing is, this was, I was in a different park in Lewisham, and I'd actually climbed the tree because I just felt like it and I also had some lines to learn. And it was quite an empty park and I thought well this is fine, and I was in a tree learning my lines and a lady came and she saw my bags on the floor and she was so freaked out she just looked up and saw me in this tree, and I have to say it was a weird sight. I have to really say Adam: [Laugh] Charity: This is so weird, I'm an actress and I don't know what I'm doing, sorry Yeah, I just, yeah, I love…I think it was also, when I was growing up, a bit of a place to kind of go and hide, you know if you're kind of stressed out or worried as a kid, and rather than run away, go and climb a tree and be up really high – it completely changes your perspective. Adam: Has having a child changed your perspective at all? Charity: I think it just strengthened my love of nature because it's the first thing that you teach kids about. All of the books that people give you are all about spotting different animals and trees, and the sunshine and the bees, everything he loves is related to outdoors, I mean that's, it's his first summer, he's fifteen months old and erm I've moved to a new house recently and been trying to work the garden a bit because it was very very overgrown. So, it's been my great pleasure to be outside and doing lots of digging and his first proper words has been digging, dig, dig, because he heard me say digging and he just started saying dig, dig, dig. [Laugh] Adam: Fantastic Charity: He said that before mummy or daddy. Adam: So, are you optimistic, I mean all those things you talked about erm are you optimistic that the world for your child will actually, things will get better during his early life? Or not? Charity: I feel burdened with the worry of it, and I try to not think about it, because the world is huge and there's only so much, I can do. I do feel optimistic in the human endeavour and human invention and ingenuity. But I am sad that it's going to get to a point of huge environmental catastrophe before real change is made by our governing bodies. But then if you look back at the pictures just pre-industrial revolution of these thousands and thousands of huge billowing chimney pots in London and you know, they're not there now, and the world is a lot greener than it was then, at least in cities. So, I kind of, yeah, I have hope otherwise you know… what's the point? Adam: I mean it's interesting isn't it, there's… I often think about how to shape the narrative here because I think often the narrative of ecology and the environment is one of ‘there's an impending disaster' you know ‘it's all terrible' and I'm not saying that's not true, but I think it's hard for people to engage with because it's like ‘well what, what can I do about that?' and I think it was, hopefully, I got this right, I think it was Barrack Obama who wrote a book on it called the Audacity of Hope and you talked about hope and it is this sort of weird thing, actually to be hopeful is an extraordinary thing, it is audacious to be hopeful and that might be, might be a better message actually, that there is this big challenge and actually the audacity of hope in what can, can we do, individually? Individuals can make a difference. You know yes joining the Trust and what have you, and doing other things, and planting a single tree Charity: I think you also have to look after yourself as a human in the world. Try to give yourself time and love and energy. Then you'll be in a really good spot to be able to help other things and other people and the environment. It's very difficult like I say if you're on the breadline and you're exhausted to actually have the headspace and the energy to do stuff. And you know, and so those people that are unable to do that we need to, I do believe, socially we need to enable people to be able to care for the environment. If you're in a position where you do have enough money, and you do have enough time, and you still feel worried, then there's tons you can do on a day-to-day level. And I actually think that action is much more infectious than talking. I know we're talking here today, but the best thing that I have probably ever done is about two or three years ago I just wrote on Twitter I'm giving up plastic for the month of January, this was before it was kind of fashionable to that and rather than saying everyone should do this, everyone should do that, I just said ‘this is what I'm doing'. I didn't even talk about it. I just said ‘I'm gonna do this' and so many of my friend's a couple of months later said ‘oo you said that and actually, I tried it as well', they didn't even talk to me about it they just kind of tried it. They started, whenever they came over, they said ‘we I didn't bring, I didn't buy any plastic because I knew you weren't interested' I thought wow! You just actually have to put a stick in the mud sometimes and say this is what I'm doing, and try to have the energy to stick to it, and of course, we have… we can't be perfect… the world is set up in a certain way at the moment as consumers, as everything is wrapped in plastic, it's very difficult to get around without, you know in lots of places, without a car because public transport has a lot to be desired and it's expensive, but if you can try to support things that are doing the right thing, that will slowly, slowly build, and if you can have joy in that, that builds as well. Adam: It is interesting to me, we tend to do what our friends do, or people we know do, so, and that's why a single person can make a difference isn't it because, a friend will copy you. And suddenly what you do isn't a single thing, it's a big thing. That's, that's amazing. So, look we're in this park which is very nice. I'm not sure I've met one leaf yet; we're meant to be walking around and I lazily dragged you to this chair! But, have you, I mean there's lots of Woodland Trust places outside of London, they are quite close but also quite far. Have you been to many? Are there any that stick in your mind? Charity: I've been to Hainault, and I've been to Langley Vale. What I would love to do is go to Scotland, I know there's lots of work happening there at the moment and I'd really like to visit, it's really interesting to see the difference between a very very ancient woodland and something that's quite newly developed, and I know that there are some places that the Woodland Trust are trying to connect two different forests, and I think, is it the pine martin (?) that they are trying to get to, sort of, repopulate? And it's very difficult to do that because they like travelling and so you have to have a long distance in between, you know, one dense forest and another dense forest for them to actually want to stick around. So, I would kinda like to see that in action. Adam: Well, the Langley Vale Forest, I have just been to, and it features in our previous podcast. All the commemoration of the First World War. Which I think was one of the most interesting and sort of, I don't know, shocking, I don't know, because there's a lot of… it commemorates really terrible events, but in a sort of, living memory, which I thought was really forceful. And that's I think one of the more interesting podcasts so if you listen to this one, but also that one, I also thought that one was great. So, it's amazing to sort of talk to you about this, but as you were saying, you are an exceptionally busy actor as well, so you're doing… is The Great still in production? Charity: It is, we're filming season three at the moment. Adam: Wow, so how many programmes in a season? Charity: so, there's ten episodes in each season, and the first two have come out via Hulu, and, in America and STARZPLAY, the first season was out on Channel 4 a couple of years ago and the second season is coming out this summer, on Channel 4, and we're filming season three. So, um, it's a lot of fun, it's very silly and it was lovely to be doing something, I was so lucky to be working during the last lockdown, albeit with really rigorous Covid protocols in place, we managed to get it done. Adam: Well fantastic, I will watch out for the next season! And all of your stuff on social media and everything. It's been a real pleasure talking to you Charity, thank you very much! Charity: Thanks. Well thanks to Charity for taking me on a tour of her local small, wooded area in South London, and do remember if you want to find a wood near you, well the Woodland Trust has a website to help. Just go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Langley Vale Wood is a really special place. Created as part of the Trust's First World War Centenary Woods project, it's a natural living legacy for the fallen that symbolises peace and hope. Memorials offer space to remember in an evocative and moving tribute. As well as these important reflections on the past, the site has a bright future. Previously an arable farm that became non-viable, nature is now thriving, with butterfly, bird and rare plant numbers all up. Join site manager Guy Kent and volunteer David Hatcher to explore the ‘Regiment of Trees', the ‘Witness' memorial and Jutland Wood. Discover too how the site is being transformed into a peaceful oasis for people and nature and why some of these fields are internationally important. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Hello! I've got to start by telling you this. I have driven to Langley Vale today and I've been driving through suburban London, really not very much aware of my surroundings, and you come up this hill and suddenly everything falls away and you burst out onto the top of the hill and it's all sky and Epsom Downs. And the racecourse is just ahead of you! And it dramatically changes. So, it's quite, it's quite an entrance into the Langley Vale forest area. I've come to meet, well, a couple of people here. I've drawn up next to a farm, I don't really know where they are, but it gives me a moment to tell you a little bit about the Langley Vale project which is amazing. It's a lovely thought behind it, because it is about honouring those who died in the First World War, and of course, there are many ways in which we honour and remember the people whose lives were changed forever during that global conflict. There are war memorials, headstones, poetry and paintings – and those man-made accolades – they capture all the names, the dates, the emotions and the places. And of course, they are vital in recording and recounting the difficult and very harrowing experiences from that conflict. But, what this venture, I think, wanted to achieve with its First World War Centenary Woods Project was a natural, living legacy for the fallen. Flourishing places that symbolise peace and hope, as well as remembering and marking the dreadful events of war, but doing that in the shape of nature and hope for the future. Both now and for many, many generations to come, providing havens for wildlife and for people – and I'm one of those people – and so it's a great project, it's in its very early stages, but it's a great opportunity, I think, to have a look around today. So, oh! There's two people wandering down the road there in shorts, I think they're hikers, I don't think they are who I am seeing. [Pause] Adam: So, Guy you're the site manager here, just tell me a little bit about the site. Guy: So, we are on the North Downs here in Surrey. It's a huge ridge of chalk that runs along southern England and down through Kent, it pops under the channel and pops up again in France. And this chalk ridge has got very special habitats on it in terms of woodland, chalk grassland, and we're very thrilled here that we've been able to buy, in 2014, a formerly intensively managed arable farm that was actually not very productive. The soils are very thin here on the hills the chalk with flints, so, pretty poor for growing crops, and we were very lucky to buy it as part of our First World War Centenary Woods project as England's Centenary Wood. Adam: So, tell me a bit about the Centenary Woods part of this. Guy: So, the idea of the project was to put a new woodland in each country of the United Kingdom, that being Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. This is the England site, and it is the largest of the four sites. We've actually planted 170,000 trees here. We did go through a full Environmental Impact Assessment and this enabled us to find out where we could plant trees because there are some special habitats here, and there is a national character to the North Downs – national character being that much of the woodland is planted on the high ground and much of the lower land is actually open space, be that for arable use or pasture. Adam: This is a Centenary Wood, so, is this just an ordinary woodland planted in the name of those who died during the First World War? Guy: Yes. The difference is… one of the reasons this site was selected was because we do actually have history here from the First World War. We've got a number of memorials that I hope to show you today. One of which commemorates a day in January 1915. Lord Kitchener inspected 20,000 troops here that had gathered and recently joined, taking up the call to join his new army. So, there were many sorts of civilians here in civilian clothing. They got up at 4am in the morning, I'm told, to all assemble here for him arriving at 10am with his equivalent French minister, and they inspected the troops for a very short period of time because they had other troops to go and inspect nearby. But many of those 20,000 actually then ended up going over, obviously, over to the frontline and many were not to return. Adam: Shall we have a walk down? And what is there then to commemorate that? Are there, are these just trees planted in memory of that occasion, or have you got a sort of statue or something? Guy: Yeah, well, the Regiment of Trees as we're just about to see, as you go around the corner… An artist, we commissioned an artist called Patrick Walls who has actually created some statues for us replicating that event. So, we have men standing to attention carved out of sandstone… Adam: Wow, yes. Just turning around the corner here and you can see this, yes, individual soldiers standing proud of a field of, actually, white daisies just emerging made from that sandstone you say? Guy: Yes sandstone. Adam: Sandstone soldiers. We are just walking up to them now, but behind that is all, I mean, I'm assuming this is a statue, but a statue made of trees. Guy: Indeed, what you're looking at there Adam is a memorial that we've called Witness. It's actually created by an artist called John Merrill and it is made up of parts of oak trees that have been assembled and it's inspired by the World War One painter Paul Nash, who was a cubist artist, and a particular painting of his called ‘Trees on the Downs' and that's inspired by that. And we're very lucky to have included within the memorial part of an oak out of Wilfred Owen's garden. Adam: Wow! Guy: Yeah so it's constructed to look like trees that have been obliterated, effectively, on the frontline, very evocative. Adam: Yes, you get very evocative pictures of a single tree either, you know, scarred black or sometimes actually still alive in a field of chaos. Guy: That's right yeah. And that's kind of trying to illustrate that in our memorial here, and what you can do, the public can actually walk through it. We've got a couple of benches within it, actually, where people can sit and contemplate, and actually written on the inside of some of these beams that go up are actually excerpts from poems from First World War poets. Adam: So, this first statue we're actually standing by it's sort of transformed in the flow of the statue – so it comes out of the ground as a sort of textured rock and as you go up 5 foot, 6 foot the statue also transforms into a man, but this man is wearing a suit and flat cap, so is a civilian. Guy: Indeed, and that's kind of trying to illustrate the fact that many of them are just joined up and a number of them haven't even got their uniform yet. Adam: So, let's move on, ahead of us, there's this sort of city gent on the left but looks a bit grander, but on the right, there are obviously… these look like officers. Guy: Yeah, the best, how I can best describe this is, that we've actually got 12 statues here and they're actually sitting among standard trees that were planted. So, we've got birch here, we've got beech, we've got whitebeam and we've got maple. But, these statues, the twelve of them, are in four lines. The guys at the back have only just joined up and they haven't had their uniform yet. And what the artist wanted to illustrate was the fact that all classes joined up at the same time. So, we have a working-class guy with his flat cap down the end there, we have our middle-class guy here with his hat on, and then we have the upper classes as well – it's meant to illustrate that everybody was in it together and joined in. Adam: I thought this was an officer, but I can see from his insignia he's a corporal. Guy: Indeed, and if you look at the statues Adam, as we go nearer the front to where Kitchener would have inspected, they all put the guys at the front who had all their webbing, all their uniform already, and as we move back through the lines it was less and less uniform and equipment. Adam: It's very evocative, I have to say, it's much more emotional than I thought it would be. Shall we go over to the sculpture? Guy: Yes let's. Adam: So, this is called ‘Witness'. Guy: So, this is ‘Witness' yes, and this is… John Merrill created this, he's got a yard in Wales where he works wood of this size. As you can see, it's quite a structure. Adam: So, yes as you say this size… So, I'm very bad at judging, six… I am trying to think, how many six-foot men could you fit under here? Six, twelve, I dunno thirty foot high? Was that fair? Guy: I tend to work in metres, I don't know about you, but I'm going to say about six metres at its highest point. Adam: So, it's made of, sort of, coming into it… it's… actually, it's quite cathedral-like inside. Small but is that a fair description? Guy: Yeah, I think so. Adam: *inaudible* Now, every second tree here has a line of First World War poetry etched into it rather beautifully. Do you want to read just a couple out for us? Guy: Yes… so here we have one saying: “And lying in sheer I look round at the corpses of the larches. Whom they slew to make pit-props.” [editor: Afterwards by Margaret Postgate Cole]. “At evening the autumn woodlands ring with deadly weapons. Over the golden plains and lakes…” [editor: Grodek by Georg Trakl]. Adam: Amazing, it's an amazing place. There are a couple of benches here and these are… Guy: These are the names of the poets. So, we have W Owen here, we have E Thomas, J W Streets, M P Cole, amongst others. Adam: Very moving, very moving. Okay, well it's a big site isn't it, a big site. So, where are we going to go to next? Guy: Well, we can walk through now Adam, we can see a new community orchard that we planted in 2017. Adam: So, we've come into, well a big part of, well there are a huge number of trees here. So, is this the main planting area? Guy: Yes, this is the main planting area. There are approximately 40,000 trees in here. Adam: We're quite near a lot of urban areas, but here they've all disappeared, and well, the field goes down and dips up again. Is that all Woodland Trust forest? Guy: That's right, what you can see ahead of us there is actually the first planting that we did on this site in 2014, on that hillside beyond. Adam: 2014? So, eight, eight… Guy: Eight years old. Adam: [laughs] Thank you, yes mental maths took me a moment. So, the reason I was doing that, is that they look like proper trees for only eight years old. Guy: It just shows you that obviously, you think that when we're planting all these trees now – that none of us will perhaps be here long enough to enjoy them when they're mature trees, but I think you can see from just by looking over there that that woodland is eight years old and it's very much started to look like a woodland. Adam: Very much so, well, brilliant. Well, very aptly I can see, starting to see poppies emerging in the fields amongst the trees. They do have this sort of sense of gravestones, in a way, don't they? They're sort of standing there in regimented rows amongst the poppy fields. So, where to now? Guy: So, we'll go to Jutland Wood, which is our memorial to the Battle of Jutland. Adam: The famous sea battle Guy: Yes, it was the largest battle of the First World War which raged over two days, the 31st of May to the 1st of June 1916. We're going to meet our volunteer, lead volunteer, David Hatcher now, who's been working with us on the site for a number of years, and he's going to tell you about this memorial that we've got to the Battle of Jutland. Adam: Right, I mean, here it's, it's different because there are these rather nice, actually, sculpted wooden stands. What are these? Guy: Yeah, these are… actually commemorate… we've got what we call naval oaks. So, we've got a standard oak planted for each of the ships that were lost in that particular battle and we've also, between them, we've got these port holes that have been made by an artist called Andrew Lapthorn, and if I can describe those to you, they are sort of a nice piece, monolith of wood with a porthole in the middle of…, a glass porthole, that indicates how many lives were lost and it has the name of the ship. Adam: So, this is HMS Sparrowhawk where six lives were lost, 84 survivors, but HMS Fortune next door, 67 lives lost, only ten survivors, and it just goes on all the way through. Guy: As you walk through the feature Adam, the actual lives lost gets a bit more, bigger and bigger, and by the end it's… there were very few survivors on some of the ships that went down, and they are illustrated on these nice portholes that commemorate that. Adam: And this is all from the Battle of Jutland? Guy: Battle of Jutland this is yeah. Adam: And just at the end here HMS Queen Mary, 1,266 lives lost, only 20 survivors from 1913. Very, very difficult. [Walking] Guy: This memorial, actually illustrates…, is by a lady called Christine Charlesworth, and what we have here is a metal representation of a sailor from 1916 in his uniform. And that faces the woodland here, where you can see ancient semi natural woodland that would have been here in 1916. So, this sailor is looking to the past and our ancient woodland. If we look to the other side of the sailor, we have a sailor from 2016 in his uniform and he's looking in the opposite direction, and he's looking at our newly planted trees – looking to the future. Adam: Let's walk through here, and at the end of this rather… I mean it is very elegantly done but obviously sombre. But, at the end here we're going to meet David who's your lead volunteer. So, David, so you're the lead volunteer for this site? And, I know that's, must be quite a responsibility because this is quite a site! David: That's very flattering - I'm a lead volunteer - I have lots of brilliant colleagues. Adam: Really? So, how many of you are there here? David: About seven lead volunteers, there are about one hundred volunteers on the list. Adam: And what do you actually do here? David: Ah well it's a whole range of different things. As you know this was an intensively farmed arable site. And there were lots of things like old fences and other debris. It was also used as a shooting estate, so there were things left over from feeding pheasants and what have you. Adam: Right. David: A lot of rubbish that all had to be cleared because it's open access land from the Woodland Trust, and we don't want dogs running into barbed wire fences and things like that. Adam: And it's different from, well I think, almost any other wood. It has this reflection of World War One in it. What does that mean to you? David: Well, it actually means a lot to me personally, because I was the first chairman of the Veteran's Gateway. So, I had a connection with the military, and it was brilliant for me to be able to come and do something practical, rather than just sitting at a desk, to honour our veterans. Adam: And do you notice that people bring their families here who have had grandfathers or great grandfathers who died in World War One? David: Yes, they do and in particular we have a memorial trail in November, every year, and there's a wreath where you can pick up a little tag and write a name on it and pin it to this wreath, and that honours one of your relatives or a friend, or somebody like that, and families come, and children love writing the names of their grandpa on and sticking it to the wreath. Adam: And do you have a family connection here at all? David: My father actually served in the, sorry, actually my grandfather served at the Battle of Jutland. Adam: Wow and what did he do there? David: He was a chief petty officer on a battleship, and he survived I am happy to say, and perhaps I would never have been here had he not, and all of my family – my father, my mother, both my grandfathers were all in the military. Adam: And do you remember him talking to you about the Battle of Jutland? David: He didn't, but what he did have was, he had a ceremonial sword which I loved, I loved playing with his ceremonial sword. Adam: Gotcha. And you are still here to tell the tale! [Laughter] David: And so are all my relatives! [Laughter] Adam: Yes, please don't play with ceremonial swords! [Laughter] That's amazing. Of course, a lot of people don't talk about those times. David: No. Adam: Because it's too traumatic, you know… as we've seen how many people died here. David: Yes. Adam: Well look, it's a relatively new woodland and we're just amongst, here in this bit, which commemorates Jutland, the trees are really only, some of them, poking above their really protective tubes. But what sort of changes have you seen in the last seven, eight odd years or so since it's been planted? David: It's changed enormously. It's quite extraordinary to see how some trees have really come on very well indeed, but also a lot of wildflowers have been sown. We have to be very careful about which we sow and where because it's also a very valuable natural wildflower site, so we don't want them getting mixed up. Adam: So, what's your favourite part of the site then? David: Ah well my favourite part…, I'm an amateur naturalist, so there's the sort of dark and gloomy things that are very like ancient woodland. We call them ancient semi-natural woodland. So there is Great Hurst Wood which is one of the ancient woodlands. Adam: Here on this site? David: Yes, on this site. It's just over there, but we have another couple of areas that are really ancient semi-natural woodland, but actually, I love it all. There's something for everybody: there's the skylarks that we can hear at the moment; the arable fields with very rare plants in; the very rare fungi in the woods. Actually, that line of trees that you can see behind you is something called the Sheep Walk, and the Sheep Walk is so-called because they used to drive sheep from all the way from Kent to markets in the west of the county, and they've always had that shelterbelt there – it's very narrow – so they've always had it there to protect the sheep from the sun, or the weather, or whatever. And it's the most natural bit of ancient woodland that there is, even though it's so narrow and it's fascinating what you can find under there. Adam: And I saw you brought some binoculars with you today. So, I mean, what about sort of the birds and other animals that presumably have flourished since this was planted? David: It's getting a lot better. The Woodland Trust has a general no chemicals and fertiliser policy and so as the soil returns to its natural state then other things that were here before, sometimes resting in the soil, are beginning to come up. We, I think, we surveyed maybe 20 species of butterflies in the first year… there are now over… 32! And there are only 56 different species over the country, so we have a jolly good proportion! We have two Red List birds at least here – skylarks and lapwings nesting. It's all getting better; it's getting a lot better under new management. Adam: [chuckle] Fantastic! Well, it's a real, a real joy to be here today. Er so, we're here in the Jutland woodland. Where, where are we going to next do you think? Where's the best place…? David: We're going to have a look at one of the wonderful poppy fields. Adam: Right. David: Because the poppies come up just as they did in Flanders every summer and it's, it really is a sight to behold. Adam: And is this peak poppy season? David: It's just passed… Adam: Just passed. David: So, we hope they are still there and haven't been blown away. Adam: It would be typical if I have got here and all the poppies have gone. Forget it, alright, let's go up there. So, well this is quite something! So, we've turned into this other field, and it is a field, well never in my life have I seen so many poppies! Mainly red poppies, but then there are…, what are these amongst them? Guy: Yeah. So, what you can see is a number of species of poppies here. The main one you can see, it's the red Flanders poppy. Adam: And is this natural or planted because of the First World War reference? Guy: No, it's mostly…, we did supplement this with some…, we've actually planted some of these poppy seeds, but most of them are natural and it's a direct result of the fact that we continue to cultivate the land. One of the most important conservation features we have here on site is rare arable plants. Bizarrely, these plants were once called arable weeds, but when intensification of farming began in the mid-20th century, the timing of ploughing was changed, the introduction of herbicides, all these things meant that these so-called arable weeds actually became quite rare and they were just hanging on to the edges of fields. What we've been able to do here is to continue to cultivate the land sympathetically for these plants and we now have much, much better arable plant assemblages here. We have rare arable plants here now, that mean that some of these fields are of national importance and a couple of them are of international importance, but a by-product of cultivating the land every year for these is that we get displays of poppies like this every year. Adam: And when you cultivate, you're talking about cultivating the land, you're planting these poppies, or what does that mean? Guy: No, it's almost like replicating the fact…, it's as if we're going to plant a crop, so we actually plough the field and then we roll it as if we're going to prepare a crop. Adam: But you don't actually plant a crop. Guy: No, no exactly. And then we leave it fallow and then naturally these arable plants tend to actually populate these fields. Poppies are incredibly nectar-rich, they're actually quite short-lived… Some of you may know poppies that grow in your garden, and they could be out in bloom one day and completely blown off their petals the next day. They don't, like, last very long, but they do pack a powerful punch for nectar, so definitely invertebrates… Because we don't use chemicals here anymore which would have been used constantly on this farm – and what that means is that many of these arable plants, they require low fertility otherwise they get out-competed by all the things you'd expect like nettles, docks and thistles. So as the land improves so will hopefully arable plant assemblages making them even more impressive than they already are. Adam: But actually, as the, as the soil improves isn't that a problem for things like poppies ‘cause they'll get out-competed by other plants which thrive better? Guy: It's a fair point, but what is actually crucial – is that to actually increase biodiversity in these fields it actually requires low nutrients. In terms of a lot of these fields, as well, we have, from years of chemical application, we have a lot of potassium, we have a lot of magnesium in them, and they have a lot of phosphorus too now. Magnesium and potassium tend to leach out of the soil so they will improve naturally, phosphorus tends to bind the soil and sticks around for a long time. So, we're trying to get these chemicals down to acceptable levels to make them more attractive for rare plants and therefore increasing biodiversity. Adam: Well, it is, it is like a painting and I'm going to take a photo and put it on my Twitter feed. I just, [gasp] so if anyone wants to see that, head over there. But it is beautiful, properly beautiful. I mean, so we were walking by this extraordinary painting of a poppy field to our right. It's a site which has been revolutionised because it was all arable farming less than a decade ago. What has that done for biodiversity here? Guy: Well, as we can imagine these fields, it's quite difficult to imagine them as we walk through them now, but these would have all been bare fields that were basically in crop production and there's clearly been an explosion of invertebrate activity here. We've got increasing butterfly species every year, our bird numbers are starting to go up, but also importantly we've got certain areas where habitats are being allowed to develop. So, we have a former arable field here that is now developing, it has been planted up with hazel coppice in a system we call ‘coppice with standards', where we plant… Adam: Coppice with standards? Guy: Coppice with standards yeah. Adam: Oo, well very grand! Guy: It is! It's an old forestry practice where they planted lots of hazel trees that would have been worked and then periodically in amongst them, there will be oak trees that would be allowed to grow longer and then harvested at a later date. What this has meant is that we've got long grass now that is growing between these trees and that's making it much more attractive for small mammals on site. Adam: Like what? What sort of small mammals? Guy: Things like voles, wood mice, field voles, these sort of things that make sort of tracks and sort of tunnels within the grass. And what that has meant is, as we go up the food chain is, that that's become more attractive now on the site for raptors. A nice story from two years ago - we have a volunteer that works with us who is a BTO bird ringer, and he sort of approached us to say “you've got barn owls nearby and your site is starting to develop nicely. How do you fancy putting up some raptor boxes to see if we can attract them in?” So, which was great, and we managed…, the local bird club donated some barn owl boxes, we put the barn owl boxes up in this field we have just talked about – the hazel coppice field – and the expert said “well they probably won't nest in it this year. They'll come and have a look…” Anyway, we put it up…, two months later… it was being used and we were able to ring those three chicks that came from that and they've been breeding ever since. Adam: Wow, how amazing! Must be very heartening to be working on the site which is growing like that so quickly. Guy: It is, it's amazing and when you consider that we're within the M25, we're very close to London, but we've got this site that is growing and it's only going to get better as we manage it sympathetically for the wildlife that it hosts. Adam: We're just coming round the bend and back to almost where we started into this field of standing soldiers amongst the growing trees, and the cathedral-like tree sculpture there which will take us back to the beginning. So we've just done a little tour… Guy: Yeah, Adam: So, I dunno half an hour, 40 minutes or so. Presumably, we skirted the edges of this… Guy: You certainly have Adam! It's a fraction of the site. We are 640 acres in size and we're just at the top part of it. This area that we've largely walked around today is very much focused on World War One and our memorials, but much of the rest of the site is, actually, is quite a bit quieter, there are fewer people around and the focus is definitely more on wildlife. Adam: Yes, well, it has been an amazing trip, I have to say, I've been to lots of different Woodland Trust woods all the way up the country, to the far stretches of Scotland. I have to say I think this is my favourite. It's quite, quite a site! And the memorial is done really tastefully and fits in with the landscape. I think this is quite, quite a site for you to manage, it's quite a thing. Guy: It's incredible and we are just so proud of it and we just can't wait to be able to open our car park and invite people from further afield, and not just locals who get to enjoy it as is the case at the moment. Adam: Absolutely. Well look, thank you! It started this morning, bright sun, it looked like I shouldn't need to bring a coat then all of a sudden, I thought “Oh my goodness”, we're standing under a completely black cloud but it has not rained, it is not raining, we're in running distance of the car so… Guy: Somebody's looking down on us Adam, at least for a couple of hours. Adam: They are indeed, well thank you very much! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Join us at Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Wood, Leics to discover a thriving 10-year-old wood, chat royal trees and celebrate the Platinum Jubilee. We meet with site manager David Logan to explore the site's connections with the royal family, its special art features and some of the wildlife, sights and sounds you might encounter on a visit.  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk. Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, like all good podcasts let's start with a story and this one obviously is about a tree. It stands in a quiet part of central London called Lincoln's Inn Fields – the centre of the legal profession. It sits, well, just outside of a gated 11-acres of parkland in one of the otherwise busiest and noisiest parts of the country. It was planted in 1953 and since then the well-heeled men and women of the legal profession, who worked there, often sheltered under its branches, passed it by, both ignoring it and perhaps enjoying it. In the 70 years that tree has been growing, there have been many monumental events and world figures who have both entered and left the stage. When it was first planted, Winston Churchill was Prime Minister. Since then, entering and often leaving the limelight – Elvis Presley, Martin Luther King, Yuri Gagarin, The Beatles, Marilyn Monroe, John F Kennedy, video players were invented, personal computers and mobile phones were created, and there have been 15 prime ministers. But in all that time, as a living witness to that history of the new Elizabethan Age, there has been only one monarch – Queen Elizabeth II. No one has played such a long-lived part in the nation's history as the Queen. The tree that still stands by Lincoln's Inn Fields is one of literally millions that have been planted in the name of the Queen. Trees, of course, have an even longer perspective on time than Her Majesty but both stand as witnesses and part of history stretching back and reaching forward far beyond the timescales most of us live by. It's very fitting, therefore, that on this Platinum Jubilee the Woodland Trust has partnered with the Queen's Green Canopy Project to invite everyone across the UK to plant a network of trees, avenues, copse, and whole woodlands, in honour of the Queen's service and legacy From a single sapling in a garden to a whole wood, the aim is to create 70 Platinum Jubilee Woods of 70 acres each – every tree bringing benefits for people, wildlife and climate – now and for the future. And so, I took this opportunity to visit the Trust's Diamond Jubilee Wood in Leicestershire, where I met the man responsible for looking after the woodland, David Logan. David: So, this is Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Woods and it's a flagship site of a scheme that the Woodland Trust has to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So, what we endeavoured to do, and we've successfully done. We created 75+ woods of 60 acres or more and they were the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Woods. And, this is the flagship one of those woods, making it the largest single-owned block of native broadleaf woodland in the National Forest area. Adam: What immediate, I mean, we've not really gone in yet, but what immediately surprises me is this is really quite, well, it's a very young wood. Yet, it already but quite mature I mean, were these species, was this all planted? David: You're looking at a hedgerow and beyond that are the trees at the same height as the hedgerow. So yeah no, it is to me, you know, a refute to people who say 'why bother planting woods because you never get to walk under the bows of the trees' but these, only ten years ago this was planted and when you get into the site, you're definitely in a wood now 10 years later. Adam: those trees are all on the quite tall… David: They must be 10-12 feet tall. Adam: Yeah, looks even taller to me but then I'm unsure. Okay, go on, lead on. Tell me a bit about then what this site sort of is, why it's special, you know, biologically special? David: Because of, it's big! You get that really wild feeling when you're here. So, you know, 267 hectares are completely devoted to nature. There's not, well, I don't think there's anywhere else particularly like that in this part of the country. And, so yeah, it does stand out. We get lots of different wildlife: lots of birds, lots of invertebrates, butterflies and a really good show of wildflowers as well. We will see some of them. Adam: And what was here before? Was it just an empty field? David: No. So, it was an open cast coal mine. So, the whole lot was owned by UK Coal and then the central part of it where the lake is was the largest hole in Europe! When it was done 750,000 tonnes of coal came out. Adam: Wow! So, I mean, there's no sign of that at all, because open cast mining can be a real scar on the land, can't it? I mean, it doesn't look pretty and then yet is there still a hole, was that all backfilled? David: That's all backfilled yeah so all of the substrate that wasn't coal will have been stored around the site and then all put back in the hole. Adam: How long have you been here then? David: So, I've been site manager for three years now, so.... Adam: Right. David: Yeah, seen it develop.  Adam: So, what sort of, I mean, three years is not a long time, especially in the life span of trees, but what sort of changes have you seen over that period? David: I think the biggest one recently is we took away all of the tree tubes and the fencing that the original kind of planting scheme relied on to protect it from deer and rabbits. Yeah, which has completely changed the way the site feels. So, no more sea of plastic tubes and no more fences to get in the way. So, you can get to walk where you like now, as well as the wildlife can get around the site a bit easier, and it really has changed the way it all feels Adam: In terms of the local community engagement and their use of this wood, what's that like? David: It's been great. Yeah, been great right from the outset, so, we had a lot of community involvement with the original planting and then again with extensions, voluntarily. Adam: And how well used is it by the locals then? David: Yeah, yeah, very well used, very rarely do you ever come to the car park and there's less than five cars in it. Adam: We're coming to, I can see... what's that building over there? That looks very pretty! David: So, that is what we call the welcome barn. So, I've got two buildings I've got on this site. I've got the welcome barn and I've got bird hide as well. Adam: Wow! So, what happens? Is there someone with tea and crumpets in the welcome barn for us? David: Unfortunately not no, but there are some interpretation panels that tell you the story of the site and a nice mosaic that was made by the volunteers as well, at the beginning of the site. And then a little compost toilet round the back! Adam: Laughs Okay that's good, good to know, good to know! And tell me about the bird hide then. David: So, the bird hide is yet another lovely building overlooking a lake. So, the lake was kind of formed by the sinking of the coal mine and the soil around it, and yeah, so just a nice bird hide, we'll go and look at it. Adam: What sort of birds do you get? David: The most exciting bird that we've had here is a hen harrier.  Adam: Right! Wow! And look, and this welcome barn, this also seems to be unusual for a Woodland Trust site? You don't normally see these things. David: Don't normally get a building no, I'm lucky to have two! Adam: And look at... really, really lovely sort of mosaic on the floor – Woodland Trust mosaic which sort of looks quite 1950s like... Do you know how long this…? This can't be that...? David: No no, that was built when the barn was built and the site was created in 2012 and it's meant to, kind of, reflect the Roman history of the site. So, we've got a Roman road that we just crossed over there, and then we've got two areas of our underlining archaeology which we know are Roman on the site. And so, we know there's certainly a lot of Roman activity, hence a Romanesque kind of mosaic. Adam: So, just explain a bit about where we are. David: So, these are called the groves – The Royal Groves – as part of Royal Groves Walk, and as part of the creation of the site. There was a royal Grove created for each year of the Queen's reign, so, they're in a series of circles and each one has a post and people can sponsor the grove and the post and then they get their little plaque added to the grove post for their year. I believe that certain years become more popular than others for various reasons and, but yeah, you'll see all these names. My favourite one, I think, is just this one. This grove is dedicated to the dahlia. Adam: That's fantastic laugh dahlia appreciation society sponsors. So, tell me a bit about the trees we're seeing here, there's clearly a whole mixture. David: Yes. So, they're all native broadleaf trees. We have got birch and oak going round. There is no ash in this part of the wood because ash dieback was kind of discovered just as the planting was going ahead and so we're lucky. There is a compartment in the north which got ash put into it. You might see the occasional ash tree that's self-set. So, we've got a Jubilee Grove Trail going on at the weekend for the... to celebrate the Platinum Jubilee that's coming up, encouraging people to, kind of, wander around the trails, and we're going to have these tree rings, sections of a tree... one per decade of the Queen's reign and with various large events that happen within that decade there will be a tree ring. Adam: Will that be permanent? David: No, it'll just be for the month of June and there will be a large wicker crown somewhere onsite as well. Adam: That's all happening next weekend? David: Well, late this week, next weekend. Adam: You've got a lot of work to do. I'm amazed you've got the time spare to wander around with me. David: Yeah well. Yeah, yeah there's always... it's always a rare commodity time I'm afraid Adam. Adam: Now you didn't design this here? You're a new boy! David: I am a new boy here! Adam: So, who actually designed it? David: So, it was a lady called Kerrie who is here, here now. She knows lots more about the groves than me as the designer and helped put it all in. Adam: Brilliant, hi Kerrie! Kerrie: Hi Adam. I think I don't think I want to say that I designed the wood but... Adam: I was building you up! Kerrie: You were, thank you, but the layout of the groves and... I was certainly involved in the design of the concept and then how we spoke to individuals about whether they would like to be involved in this. So, it was an opportunity for families to dedicate their own acre of woodland and help us develop this wood, as well as being part of a feature that enables you to walk through the Queen's reign. Kind of, physically walk through every year of the Queen's reign, so it's really special. Adam: Which is amazing, isn't it?  Kerrie: Yes, it is.  Adam: Tell me a bit about this royal connection because this wasn't, sort of, just a random, sort of, marketing idea. There's a really good basis for this royal connection isn't there? Kerrie: Absolutely, yeah so, at the Woodland Trust in 2011 we started a project to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee – so, sixty years of the Queen's reign – and we wanted to enable people across the country to plant trees and create woodland. We did that in a number of ways. So, we had this aspiration to create sixty Diamond Woods each of 60-acres in size, which is a big, really big commitment! And we also encourage people to create Jubilee Woods which were much smaller copses of trees in community spaces. And we distributed trees to schools and communities all across the country. Actually, it was hugely successful so the wood we are here at today is the Woodland Trust's flagship Diamond Wood. And then we had landowners and organisations and local authorities who also wanted to be involved. We needed to create 60-acre woods, we didn't know if we'd get to sixty actually inaudible we did get to sixty, we surpassed that, we had seventy-five woods at that scale created! Adam: So, seventy-five 60-acre wood Kerrie: Plus woods yeah, amazing, so, it's the first sixty of the Diamond Woods and then we have fifteen woods that we call the Princess Woods. Adam: Amazing, and so this was to commemorate that reign, and this is a lovely theme though! You can wander through the years of the Queen's reign. But the royal connection to woods is long and deep, isn't it? Kerrie: It is yeah. So, we were really fortunate that Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal was patron of that project. But there's a long and well-established connection between the royal family and tree planting, and as part of the project that we did we wanted to map all the woods that were created, and the trees that were planted. So, we copied... Adam: So, for the, for the queen? Kerrie: For the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So actually, we took inspiration and sort of copied the Royal Record that had been done previously to mark a coronation. So, we actually have physically created and produced, published a Royal Record which is a huge red tome and that charts where all those trees are. And this is something that had already been done before the Queen's father. It's actually very heavy and so we have a copy at our office in Grantham, there is a copy in the British Library, and we gave a copy both to the Princess Royal and to the Queen.  Adam: There are lots of royal connections to trees and tree planting even beyond Queen Elizabeth. So, tell me a bit about that. Kerrie: That's right, yes. So, in the 1660s Charles II commissioned several avenues of sweet chestnut and elm in Greenwich Park and in 1651 he hid from pursuers inside an ancient oak during the English Civil War. and I think that's one of the reasons actually that you see so many pubs called the Royal Oak. Adam: Right okay because he hid in one? Kerrie: He hid in one yeah. Adam: Now you came... when did you see the hole in the ground? This was an open cast mine? Kerrie: Yes. Adam: You saw that? Kerrie: Yes, before any trees were here. So, I can't believe it's been several years since I've been here today, and it is now it's a wood! Adam: Yeah, there is no sign of that is there? Kerrie: No absolutely not, a complete transformation. Adam: It is amazing, isn't it? How quickly really that the natural world can recover. I mean, it needs a bit of help obviously and certainly in this circumstance. But no sign of what must have been really quite horrific bit of landscaping. Kerrie: Yeah. I think given how stark it felt at the beginning and when we first saw all trees grow in the ground here. It is genuinely remarkable for the transformation in a ten-year period of time! You can hear the birds, the trees are overhead, you know, we've seen butterflies, caterpillars... It really feels like nature has reclaimed this space it's really really exciting Adam: And when you start, I mean, look it's already done! It's a success! It looks fantastic, but when you started was this always a ‘this is gonna work' or at that stage did you think ‘this looks horrible, this might be a disaster, no one might come, no one might get on board with this project'? Kerrie: Well. I think we all had the vision, we all had hope. There are colleagues of mine that have been working at the Trust for longer than me who knew how this would look. I just didn't know that. This is one of the first projects I worked on so, to see it within ten years, the change that's the thing that I find you know really amazing! I thought I would have to wait much longer, and I'd be coming back with grandchildren to say look at this, but actually, here we are within a decade and it is transformed. Adam: Brilliant! Alright, well let's move on, let's find David again. Kerrie: Well, David on a previous visit has actually shown the Princess Royal around this wood. So, in terms of royal connections David has been a royal tour guide. Adam: Okay, so we have a living royal connection here? Kerrie: We do. Adam: Look here's a little bench, I might just sit here for a while. Brilliant, ah there's a dedication, what does it say? 'In honour of Sally Whittaker who believed in the beauty of wildlife and protecting it'. I have to say I always do like stopping at a bench and reading those dedications. Brief pause So, David, I'm not the only super important person you've taken around this woodland, am I? David: You're not the only super important person maybe, you are charming Adam! Adam: Ahhh thank you that's very sweet, very sweet laughs come on tell me about the even more important people you've taken around! David: So, yeah well, the most important person I guess would be Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, alongside Darren [Moorcroft] the CEO of the Woodland Trust. So, I was pretty nervous that morning, to be honest. The CEO, I'd never met him before and obviously a member of the royal family! But yeah no, I remember being nervous at the beginning, and then by the end of the day when I finally said goodbye to Princess Anne I was longing to spend a bit more time with her. She is incredibly charming, yes. Adam: Yeah. So, we come to a waymark, which? It's left, is it? David: Follow the blue and white arrows. Adam: Right so, if there are... there two different paths? Does blue and white mean anything or? David: Yeah. So, there's three waymarked trails around the site and we just happen to be happening on a little bit that's on two of those. So, there's the woodland walk which is the longest walk around the whole of the wood, and then there's the Royal Groves Walk. And then there's the lake walk as well Adam: Right so, explain a bit about where we're heading off to. You're taking me into the centre of the woods, it feels like? David: Yeah. So, we're continuing along the groves and eventually, we will get to a broad open vista, and you will be able to see most of the features of the site. Adam: So, we are already walking out to what looks like a less wooded area. David: Yes, we're kind of skirting the western edge of the site now and then... Adam: It's a big site, isn't it? how long will it take to walk over the whole thing do you think? How long are these paths? David: Like a good tour of every feature of the site here's looking at half a day really, probably, and that's with a bit of pace on. Adam: I've only got short legs laugh so I'd add a few hours. So, there's another one of these posts. Shall we just have a look? 1985 were through to, anyway so... David: Green woodpecker there, did you hear? Adam: Oh no wow! I missed out, I've been looking out for posts, I missed the green woodpecker. So, we're just coming out of a rather wooded area into – it suddenly opens up very dramatically – and look at that it's a very different view! So I can see a lovely wildflower meadow almost and then at the bottom a huge lake! A huge lake. So, this is where the old open cast mining just sunk down a bit and has since got naturally filled? David: Yeah. So, what you're looking at now is the epicentre of the open cast coal mine and obviously the wider landscape around it. So, yeah that's our lake and the end of the groves walk. So, you can just see the final three or four grove posts just heading off down the hill. And then this was an open area left to retain the view and then on the other side of the lake we've got a 5-hectare exclusion zone so there's no paths in that area. Just, no paths in the area, just to allow nature to completely have five hectares for resting birds et cetera. Adam: Let's go down because I think... David: We've got something else to show you. Adam: Sorry go on, rushing ahead, what is it? David: So, we got this piece of land sculpture that was created by an artist called Rosie Levitan and there are calls every now and again. We get somebody asking if we can put some kind of panel up to explain what it's all about, but the artist herself expressly asked that not to happen. So, I think she is more inclined to allow you to kind of figure it out for yourself or come to your own conclusions as to what it's all about. So, it was created with money from the Arts Council at the inception of the site. So, no money that could have gone into conservation went into creating this piece of art. But yeah, I'll leave you to... Adam: Sorry, this is it? This is it? David: This is it; I'll leave you to come to your own conclusions. Adam: So, when you said a piece of art, I thought you meant like a large statue of something out of wood, but actually, this is a sort of an earth tiered... almost like amphitheatre going downwards counts I think 5 tiers there. David: It's in a spiral so you can walk around the outside which takes a lot longer than you think! Adam: Laughs Yeah right I think I might take the direct route down, but to be honest, it seems like a brilliant place to put on a play! David: Yes! That's my thoughts as well, yeah I'd love to get a play here. Adam: Yeah! Have you ever gone down then done a soliloquy? David: Errr not, well, do you want me to? Adam: Yes, if you if you've got a piece ready laughing David: Unfortunately, I haven't. I mean I could maybe do a jaunty jig or something like that? Adam: Yes, well look, we're recording. David: Yes, well, no let's not! Adam: That's a shame laughing I think you probably come down when there are not many people around. So, if you ever do see a man in Woodland Trust clothing doing a jaunty jig at the bottom of this amphitheatre-like piece of art you know who it is and that he just wouldn't do it for us laughter very nice, very nice. Adam: So, you're gonna take me down to the lake now? David: Yeah, take you down to the lake. Adam: And it's there that we are going to meet one of your volunteers, is that right? David: That is right yep, a chap called Gerald. So, he's been volunteering with us on the site since the site was created and in various different roles Adam: And I've just gotta say it is beautiful walking down here because there are just huge numbers of buttercups aren't there? David: Yes, it is stunning, isn't it? Adam: It is stunning, it's like a sort of it's like a painting! It's like a painting, brilliant! David: This is our pond dipping platform. Adam: There's a cuckoo Bird song Adam: That's very good, so Gerald, sorry, we're distracting you. I can see you distracted by some swans coming over with their little babies. They're coming over to investigate you think? Gerald: I think they are yes! It's good to see it, I, they must be relatively young because a few weeks ago they were they weren't about so it's... Adam: Right. We'll let these swans investigate us as I chat to you so tell me. I'm told you do tonnes on this site. What was the local community's feeling when the trust took over this site and sort of explained what it wanted to do? Gerald: Generally, really good because you can imagine if you've got an open cast colliery on your doorstep a wood is a big improvement! Adam: Well, that's what I was going to say, because sometimes there is, sort of you know, some resistance or sort of misunderstanding about what is trying to happen. But here you go ‘surely this is going to be better for everybody'? Gerald: Yeah, so I think, overall, the mood was very good. There will be people who say yes but why don't you do this because this is better? We had some debates about whether we could put in some fruit trees, for example, and because we're in a sort of prime growing area in Leicestershire here. And there were debates about whether that was acceptable, whether they were native trees or not. But it was all good healthy discussion and it's interesting to see how the trees have grown and they have particularly grown well on this area here which was the open-cast. When you think – this all was disturbed ground that was put back – the trees have grown probably better here than they have in parts of what was the agricultural land. Adam: I have to stop because the swans have properly come up to us now. There they are! How involved do you get now, now it's well established what do you actually end doing? Do you come down here most weeks or? Gerald: It's a couple of times a month at least now. During the pandemic, it was sort of very limited of course, and well before that time, I used to do a monthly walk which was really... Adam: This is your guided monthly walk? Gerald: Yes guided, with a series of friends and colleagues. Adam: Do you have a favourite part of the wood? Gerald: Actually, probably near the bird hide just along from there. Adam: Why? Gerald: I don't know really. It's gotta mix, you got a mix with the water, you got the mix of the trees, a bit of the open meadowland here, and yes, the bird hide does add a bit of character to the place. I think we're lucky to have that there. Adam: I think David's waiting for me there. Shall we go over and have a chat with him? We've paused for a moment because we're just passing a black Poplar and a little plaque next to it saying it was planted by BBC Breakfast on 1 June 2012 in celebration of Her Majesty the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. Gerald: Yes, we have the two black poplars here. Adam: There's another one here. Was that planted by ITV for balance? Laughter Gerald: Oh no much more prestigious. Adam: Oh sorry, yes it was planted by Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal who is patron of the Jubilee Wood Project on the 1 of June 2012. And doing very nicely! Gerald: Yes, they are indeed! They've both grown quite a bit in the last year, I think. Adam: Very nice! So, what's the way to the bird hide? Is it round here? Gerald: Just go up to post on turn left. It's at the moment, hidden by a willow screen. It's a piece of willow art, although it's not particularly obvious Adam: You can see they've been bent over at the bottom haven't they to form a sort of willow fence. Gerald: If you were to look down on it from a drone it will be an outline of a skylark. It's a little bit overgrown and that's on our task list for next winter to prune that and try and weave in the lower bit. So, it's going to task our skills! Laughter Adam: We're going into the bird hunt now. We're in the bird hide. David, ironically having seen lots of birds the moment I get in here actually I can't – oh I think there is one over there – but do people, is this a good actual spot to be watching birds from? David: Yeah, yeah because it gives you that cover so the birds don't necessarily know you're here. It is quite a light bird hide though but it was created in conjunction with the Leicestershire Wildlife Trust, so they must have built a few bird hides, but yes. Adam: To be honest it's lovely weather today. But if it was raining a little bit this would be a fantastic place just to sit down for a while, wouldn't it? David: Yes, it would yeah. Just get out of the rain, I've done that a couple of times! Adam: Right, fantastic, alright well where are we going to next? David: So, there's just one last thing I would like to show you onsite which is just a short walk back up the hill. Adam: Okay, what is that? David: It is called the photographic plinth and so it's basically some encouragement for people to keep on visiting the site year after year. So, what we've got is we've got a plinth that you put your camera on and then a brick area that you supposedly stand on so you can get exactly the same photograph every year. You can visit the site and you can watch your family grow as the wood grows around you Adam: What a brilliant idea! What a brilliant idea. Okay, okay so David so there is a plinth. David: Yes, this is our photographic plinth. What it needs is updating, because obviously when this was made smartphones didn't exist and now you wouldn't really get a smartphone balanced on that! Adam: Yes, that's true David: It needs a little block bit putting on so you can rest a phone on it. Adam: So, it's not only the trees which have changed, it's the technology that it's referring to. I'll tell you what, I mean, obviously I'm going to have my photo taken aren't I? Can I give you my, I haven't got a camera, I do have my smartphone, so I'll go stand... I'll go stand here, and in a couple of years I'll come back and I'll have even less hair. Hold on a second – do I look better with my hat off or on? Pause Neither. I feel that was an undiplomatic pause I felt. David: What I was thinking is that I need to see both to answer correctly, that's why I was thinking. So, I'm gonna take it from the correct position. Click There you go Adam: I'm not confident that looked any good from the look on your face. I'm not going to look at it now I'll check it when I'm home. There is clearly a lot more to it than I've managed to explore today but what a wonderful treat, on a lovely, beautiful Monday, in this very special royal year! To come and celebrate that here! thank you very much David. David: that's quite alright Adam it's been a pleasure Footsteps Adam: Well, that was a great walk and thanks of course to everyone who arranged that. It's a fantastic place to visit especially in this Royal Jubilee year. If you know about these things, you can find it at grid reference SK 390132. The nearest train stations are Burton, Tamworth and Loughborough, although they're all a bit of a car journey, I have gotta say, from each of those stations. But if you're looking for a woodland perhaps nearer to you do have a look at the Woodland Trust website which has a special site to find a wood near you it is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that until next time happy wandering. Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Lying next to the River Avon just inside the Cotswolds, Avoncliff Wood is no ordinary wood. The site hosts one of the biggest trials in the UK to find biodegradable alternatives to plastic tree guards. As if that wasn't enough, it's also a living laboratory, revealing how ash dieback will really affect nature. Site manager Joe gives us a special behind the scenes tour to learn more. We also meet volunteer wardens Kay and James, and catch up with TV presenter Alice Beer who lives nearby. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, I've changed trains at Bath Spa for what appears to be a very small train which is taking me to Avoncliffe. Now, in fact, the train conductor has told me the platform is so short when I get there only one door is going to open. He came through asking “Is anybody getting off?” and I'm the only one, the only one. Well, I have to tell you, the station here is straight out of a 1930s style Agatha Christie film, that's what it screams to me. Beautiful signs, beautiful flowers, the River Avon just almost next door to the station, a great looking pub and down at the end of the platform one single man who I'm assuming is Joe Middleton with the Woodland Trust, site manager here and the guy who's going to show me around. Joe: So, welcome to Avoncliffe Wood in the Avon Valley just in between Bath and Bradford-on-Avon. We just crossed over the famous Avoncliffe Aqueduct and just followed the River Avon until we hit even Avoncliffe Wood which carpets the side of the valley across this area of the Cotswolds AONB, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, right at the southern end of the Cotswold AONB. Adam: There's very little woodlands right here, so what's going on in this first field? Joe: So, we're just at the edge of our woodland creation. So we bought 20 hectares, about 40 football pitches, of ancient woodland – untouched for generations – and to buffer that, to try and expand carbon storage and fight climate change and the ecological decline we're seeing we actually bought another 10 hectares, another 20 football pitches, worth of agricultural fields essentially and meadows which were very intensively grazed and we've planted that up with over 5,000 trees to try and get the next generation of trees in here. Adam: Wow, okay so shall we go through, have a look? Thank you. Joe: So just next to us as you can hear the birds singing away, there are blackbirds, robins and blackcaps in there. There's one acre, here, just on the right-hand side, which was actually planted up 25 years ago by a neighbour. So, the very small one acre square now 25 years later is teeming with you know 30-40 foot birch trees, willows, hazels and hawthorns, full of cherry blossom and hawthorn blossom, and birds nesting, tweeting, and insects buzzing all around us! It's quite rare these days! So hopefully we think everything we planted up here, all 5,000 trees would look like that in 25 years. A proper young woodland. Adam: And you've clearly, I mean, they're not uniformly planted so there's a big patch in the middle which you've got nothing and they seem to be done in clumps, so why have you done it like that? Joe: Do you want to know what that patch in the middle is? That's a sledging lane. Right well so we carried out community consultation when we first bought the woodland. We asked all the locals, we said look there's this really lovely kind of big expanse of fields all around the wood, we want to buy it, we want it to, you know, fight climate change, we want to try and do our bit for wildlife. And they said whatever you do leave us a sledging lane because when it snows here this hill is perfect for tobogganing down. Adam: laughs you see I thought it was going to be for some really technical reason! You need to do that for a very specific reason, I didn't realise it was gonna be sledges. Joe: There are also wide rides, you know, big areas that people can walk through. We've created a really good path network in here as well in some areas and natural regeneration so there are areas unplanted and there are areas purely for tobogganing fun in the middle of snowy winters. Adam: And why not? It's very important. Now, the thing that we can see in this immediate field is a lot of tree guards and well I'm also standing by a little sign which says biodegradable tree shelter. I always call them tree guards, but this was called tree shelter. Now that is not by coincidence. The tree guards are a huge issue, aren't they? Joe: Yeah, I mean with governments pledging to plant millions if not globally billions of trees to fight climate, you know hold onto carbon, stop floods, we have to be able to do it without using oil-based plastics. For the last 35 years people have just, every tree that's gone in you know, not every one, but most trees that've gone in have been planted with a giant plastic tree guard which doesn't biodegrade, it litters, it causes microplastics, and people… Adam: And are they reusable those plastic guards? Joe: They are to a certain degree, they're not easy to recycle, there are some better recycling schemes now just starting. But actually, probably one in three are reusable. But a lot of places are too far to go and get them, people don't bother they get left and derelict and are expensive to go and collect every single one, especially when you're planting hundreds of thousands. So the biodegradable alternative is the absolute key. Find something that naturally, you know, biodegrades away back into the soil, doesn't harm anything, it doesn't use oil. Adam: Right, I'm just going to go up to… So, this is a biodegradable one? Joe: Exactly. Adam: It looks sort of yellowish and quite canvas-like but it's very it's very firm, it doesn't feel, I mean that feels a sturdy old thing this. Joe: Yeah so, we've got 5,000 trees we put in. We are using some old recycled plastic ones, so we've been given a few, but actually we've got 16 different types of biodegradable alternatives to plastic here. So, they range from cardboard, you know, made from paper or mulch to biodegradable plastics, which the jury is out on at the moment, to actually resins and oils from things like cashew nut shells and pine resin. We've got a train coming past us! Train noise Two and a half years ago, when we planted the 5,000 trees in all these biodegradable guards, we launched something called Big Climate Fightback, a big Woodland Trust campaign to bring people out to help plant trees and do their bit. And actually, we ended up with over 250 people arriving one Saturday – spades in hand – on the trains in all the train stations. And the people in Bath, and Bristol and Bradford-on-Avon must have thought “what on earth is going on?”, with over 250 people arriving with spades on the platforms. And they came in here, they planted trees en masse – school kids, families, local groups. Everyone came here to try and plant trees and with that we, you know, told people about the problem of plastics and we've basically now got one of the biggest sites in the UK for trialling an alternative to plastic – to try and protect these trees so they get to five, seven years to get to a good height where they're no longer susceptible to browsing by deer, by rabbits, by voles, which is the main reason the shelters and guards are here to protect them. Adam: And correct me if I'm wrong but there is a sort of school of thought saying well don't use any guards. I mean it's now sort of established practice that you've got to use a guard otherwise the tree won't survive, but there is this sort of vague thought we never used to use guards in the distant past, so why have we suddenly got obsessed with them? Joe: I mean deer numbers are higher than they've ever been, it's a huge amount of browsing by deer with no natural predators, so it's complicated, that is the simplest answer, but putting up a giant 6-foot fence is probably you know the other solution which is in a lot of cases, depending on size, it can be much more economic, more practical. Very small areas – probably not massive areas, but medium sized – deer fencing is probably the answer, but then you've still got rabbits and voles you've got to fence out. So, doing nothing, over-planting, natural regeneration – we've got an area if you look up to the edge of the woodland we've left the buffer zone of about 20-30 metres around lots of this woodland, all around it, with nothing, we've just fenced it off and we're just going to allow the woodland to expand – every one of those berries and those nuts and seeds that drops into the ground will hopefully just have a, you know, wild natural generation. Like Knepp with a huge rewilding – that hope of what happens there doesn't happen as easily here but can take a long time. Hopefully that will establish woodland itself, but it may take 50 years. At the moment we've got a climate emergency on us and amongst us, so we have to do something now so planting trees is a very good quick solution. Adam: A huge issue because if we are planting for ecological reasons what we don't want to do is every tree comes with its own polluting plastic. I mean that's not the future. So, the answer to that question may well lie in the thousands of experiments you're carrying out in this field we're standing in. Joe: Absolutely. Adam: Right, well I've stopped us walking. We better… I better get my steps in. So, let's carry on. Where are we heading to now? Joe: So, we're gonna go and find our two volunteer wardens in a minute. Adam: So, we've got two volunteers hard at work. I can see just up the hill a bit. Joe: So, this is James and Kay who are both our two volunteer wardens. They've been working now replacing broken, rotted, fallen biodegradable tree guards, replacing the trees as they die as well, and these two have been working hard to help keep an eye on them for the last few years for us. Adam: It's got them hard at work! Joe: They are incredibly hard at work. Hey guys how you doing? Kay and James: Alright? Hi! Hello. Adam: They do have you hard at work! So Kay and James, so first of all before we get to what you're actually doing, why have you been doing it? What's your interest? Why did you volunteer to do all of this? Kay: Well, you've been a volun… a member of the Woodland Trust for about 25 years. James: Well, it's about 35 years now. Kay: Since this is really on our doorstep, this is a perfect opportunity to get really involved with the Woodland Trust. Adam: James, I mean, you've been a Woodland Trust member for a very long time. And, ah the debate around trees has changed enormously. Hasn't it? James: It has, and I am glad that people have suddenly valued trees. I was in the military but, before that, I was out of Kent, out near Canterbury and my uncle was a farmer with orchards and basically from the earliest days I knew about the trees, the names of trees. The pollards at the end of the field as windbreaks, the various wetland trees down in the floodplains around the Romney Marsh area. But I already had a fascination for the massive oaks, the spectacular deciduous trees on the horizon I think made this this countryside look like it does, so British, and so English, with these gorgeous round shapes, compared to a lot of conifers you see in all the European places I've been to. Adam: Okay, talk me through a bit about what you're actually doing here – I mean, you know, hammer in hand I can see. Kay: Hammer in hand, we're replacing some of the tubes that haven't stood up to the wind and the rain. We found that circular rather than rectangular and… Adam: works, circular works… Kay: circular works, because otherwise if it's square they act as a flag, especially cardboard ones. When they get wet, they just disintegrate – as you can see there's lots of bare sticks around here, so yeah, we're going through and replacing them with circular ones. Adam: Fantastic, now I know that the local community were very involved with the Trust, sort of when the Trust took over and sort of designed this site. Tell me a bit about what the local community feel. Kay: That was a great day. We had two schools frog marched in, and yeah, with their teachers and staff and they planted the whole area, which was lovely – they were naming the trees as they were planting them. I know the whole village got involved with planting 5,000 trees over a progressive few weekends and subsequently James and I have been replanting the failures. Adam: And James I mean very clear how engaged you are with this sort of issue but to tell me about the feelings then of the local community and what they what they felt when Woodland Trust first came here and how involved others are apart from you two. James: So, I'm very pleased that people are actually accepting, on the whole, that their backyard has been filled with trees and shrubs which are growing up for their children's lifetime. Kay: We have had some objections to this, but they haven't given their reason why. I assume it's because it's used when we do get snow, which is very rare, it's the sledging field. The Woodland Trust have kindly left a gap for sledging but then they moan that the grass is too long so you can't please everyone all of the time. Adam: But when it was first thought about, and I think it's really interesting isn't it, that you say the community are largely behind this, but I think if others are listening to you now where they may be talking about a woodland on their doorstep created by the Woodland Trust or their own sort of organisation – I wonder what people's first reaction, what were their concerns and hesitancies that you heard about that may have been overcome? Kay: People don't like change do they? And at the moment it's, yeah, it doesn't look picture perfect with the stakes and the guards on, but you've got to envisage what it will look like in 10-15 years' time. You've only got to look at the hedgerow, which is behind us now, and at this time of year which is beginning of May, it's absolutely gorgeous. The blossom's out, the fresh burst of the leaf is so colourful and vibrant, what's not to like about having a wood on your doorstep? And we were very lucky. Adam: Okay, well brilliant, well thank you very much. Look I don't want to disturb you anymore but that's brilliant. Thank you very much. Kay: Thank you! Adam: So, we're gonna head up now to the ancient woodland. Now this is certainly unique in any of the Woodland Trust sites I've been to, because normally the Trust actively encourages people to come in, but this is the only site I've been to where the ancient woodland bit you stop people from coming. Oh, look this is… Joe: This is our nifty little fenced area which… Adam: We're going through the barbed wire so just be careful going… So, explain to me why you've unusually actually kept the public out of the ancient woodland. Joe: Ash dieback really is becoming a huge problem across a lot of woodlands I manage. I manage about 30 woods across the West Country and every one of them has large amounts of ash that really grows really well on these sort of limestone soils and in these hills around the Mendips, the Cotswolds. Gosh there's a huge Buzzard just soaring over the edge of the woodland there. So, ash dieback is killing off essentially all our ash trees. Estimates vary at the moment. You know recently it was about 95% and then people said it was around 60%. So, the latest estimate is that about 60% of our ash trees will die over the next 50 years. How fast they die is the worrying thing but when we bought the wood in 2019 ash dieback was blowing across the landscape. It is a fungal disease. It naturally spreads. It came over from Asia originally in infected stock of nursery trees being planted out. So, no one's been able to plant any ash for the last three years. It's now being reported all the way from the east of Great Britain, all the way to the west, every year, until it's spread and spread and spread now our mature ash trees – whether they're in a hedgerow, along roadsides and country lanes, whether they're in woodlands – ash trees are essentially dying en masse, and this is killing off everything that lives and breathes on those ash trees. Adam: And the reason you're keeping the public out is because the trees are dangerous, are they? They might fall? Joe: Yeah exactly, so where you have a path or road or property you have to maintain, you know, what's reasonably practical safety for people to be able to walk under it. We realise if we were to create a load of paths, allow a load of people into now what is a fantastic ancient woodland, but it has never really had any paths in, it's been undisturbed for generations – over 100 years now – we don't think anyone set foot in it. So, we didn't want to create any paths because we didn't want to fell any trees, so we've kept it shut and all the locals have seemed to have bought into that and are really pleased this is just a woodland for wildlife. They're happy enough to walk around the fields where we've created woodland. Adam: And is it also something of a laboratory to see what happens to ash dieback? If you really don't step in and try and do anything? Joe: Exactly yeah, so, in so many woodlands across Britain because of the large amount of public footpaths, people are having to fell for health and safety reasons, so there's not very many examples where if no one goes in and nothing happens, what happens to that wildlife? Does it also dramatic- dramatically decline, with the trees losing? Or are there some winners? So, are there some decay species? Some fungi species? Some insects, beetles that love decay rotting wood that increase? So we don't really know. So, this site we've turned into a living laboratory, this is a unique case of where we are monitoring the species within the wood, how they react to ash dieback over time. Adam: We're now going into the bit of ancient woodland which the public are locked out of and so we have got this big “keep out, closed due to ash dieback” (sign). Joe: You have exclusive access! Adam: Brilliant, now I gotta say, I mean I've got to take a photo of this because this is a sea of amazing plants. I'm really, I want to be careful where I tread, I don't want to disturb anything. Because I'm completely ignorant, what are these plants? Joe: Can you smell it? Adam: Yeah sure, it's extraordinary! Joe: This is wild garlic. Adam: Is that what it is? Joe: Ramsons are all in flower at the moment and now we can see for literally, well, hundreds of metres is the white snowy tops of these wild garlic flowers that are just coming up across the thick green leaves and when there's no path in sight you have to be careful where you tread. So, luckily wild garlic's quite prolific, so we'll tread carefully, but an undisturbed wood looks like this. It's like a sea, or a carpet of sort of snow. Adam: That is extraordinary, isn't it? Yes it is a sea of snow and that's the advantage of actually having undisturbed places. Is that it, I mean, yeah sea is exactly what it looks like. These sort of white foaming tops to the rolling green waves of vegetation. Quite amazing. Joe: All you can make out are the occasional tracks of foxes, badgers, stoats, weasels, that have gone through it, maybe the odd deer as well. But insects seem to be declining catastrophically. The ideal analogy is, you know, people used to drive around even in the 80s and you get windscreens splattered with bugs and insects. It just doesn't happen anymore and that massive decline of insects, it's unknown the reason, it probably doesn't help with, you know, when people are using lots of pesticide sprays across the countryside, along with climate change, but as all those insects decline so do our birds that feed on them, so are our bat species – so they're not fat enough to basically get through the hibernation and then when they come out of hibernation and the young are born there are just not enough insects so they don't make it through the summer essentially, and they don't have another generation that makes it. So, yeah, bat species are declining at the moment, so that's one of the first things we've noticed, and well ash are declining en masse. There were a lot of these species of ash that we're monitoring that are all dying en masse. Adam: I mean so that, I mean, …you're telling me all these terrible things Joe: Yes, I know. Adam: But I mean that's important it's still amazing landscape still isn't it? Joe: Absolutely. Adam: And that's always been true with woodlands. That decay brings its own new life and decaying trees are very important parts the of the ecosystem, but even given all of those challenges that you talk about are there any, are there any high points, any reasons for optimism? Joe: Well, wild garlic's obviously doing really well in this particular wood! But there will be some species that do, really, there will be some species of butterfly that you know do really successfully with the increased amount of light. But one of the best success stories, the best things you can do to feel positive about it is to go back out into those fields, plant the trees, the next generation, so that if some of these woodlands do suffer for whatever reason then we've got far more woodland habitat. We need to increase our woodland cover from about 13% to 20% fast and then if we get 20% – we've got the shrubs, we've got the tree species, got the rewilding areas – to be able to provide those homes for the species that aren't doing so well. That's the key I think is to plant the next generation, get there quickly. Our woodlands have a fantastic history and have been managed over time. This is just the next phase in the management to basically keep an eye and ensure our guardianship secures for that next generation in the next 50-100 years. Adam: Well I'm going to leave Joe to smelling his wild garlic, because TV presenter and journalist Alice Beer, who I used to work with, I know lives not that far from this woodland. Now I know she's out and about today so I'm going to call her on her mobile to discuss what the countryside around here means to her and her family. Okay, so just Alice first of all we should explain a bit about our history, so everybody… Alice: Oh must we tell everybody? Do you think we should? Adam: I think we should share a little bit. I used to open letters on Watchdog which was a massive massive programme at the time and I can't, do you remember how many people watched it? I can't Alice: Well I don't know I'd come to watchdog from That's Life and That's Life, which was before you were born Adam I'm sure, had 15 million viewers in its heyday and I think Watchdog was around 7 million viewers, which now is completely unheard of, but then you know it was just 7 million people watching it and more importantly 7 million people putting pen to paper. No emails, pen to paper, and thank God Adam Shaw was in the post room! Adam: Yes I was opening the 7 million letters with one or two other people and Alice was much more senior, so we would come to pass those stories onto Alice and of course, you are now, what's your official title? Alice: I suppose I'm actually probably daytime television presenter but I'm far too much of a snob to say that! I kind of dip in and out of various things trying to still help the little guy or pass on information. Adam: You have a regular spot on a very big programme, This Morning? Alice: Well, This Morning, yes, it's every day, it's now two and a half hours, they keep extending it! I am waiting for it to bump up against the Six O'Clock News soon! But This Morning it was, “can you do a piece on brisk walking and the health benefits”, as a result of some survey that came out, so here I am for the second time today brisk walking and broadcasting at the same time which is fantastic! Adam: Very good! Don't trip over! You've got a couple of dogs with you haven't you as well? Alice: I have, I've got Stanley who's my five-year-old schnoodle and his girlfriend Tilly and there are times when they become quite amorous in the long grass but I'm going to try and keep it clean for your sake! Adam: I knew you when we used to work in Shepherd's Bush in London, but you are now a country girl aren't you? Alice: Yeah, wellies welded to my feet! I grew up in suburbia and in North London suburbia and the countryside wasn't really important to me, but my parents took me out, took me and my sister out walking quite a lot. There was always “shall we do the walk through the woods”, “should we do the walk through the bluebell woods” which is slightly longer or “should we go up and round” which involved the hill. So, there was always a consciousness of walking in the countryside as a pleasant thing to do, but as we've got older, the countryside has become more important to me and we have been doing that thing, my partner and I have been doing that thing where we're trying to move out of London and we've settled on this beautiful village, beautiful functional village not far from Malmesbury in Wiltshire, which is where I am now, walking alongside the River Avon. So not too far from Avoncliff and the same body of water sort of flowing past me which is rather nice. Adam: How lovely. I know, I've seen you on This Morning as you're talking about wellbeing, and in terms of actually, with your consumer journalist hat on talking about the gadgets you could buy to help with wellbeing and having lights I think that show, sort of, natural light. I mean, how important do you feel it's been for you and your family during these rather difficult times to have access to nature and the outside? Alice: It's been everything to me. Everything. I've got teenage girls in fact it's their birthday today, their 19th birthday today, so for them probably it spells isolation for them because they didn't grow up in the countryside, or this this particular part of the countryside, so you know this means being away from their friends, but for myself and my husband it's been, it's been really important. For me to leave the house and walk in space because in London everything has felt very close and very claustrophobic and I'm mentally not good at that at all! So, I'm incredibly lucky to be able to breathe and give myself sort of mental and physical space away from other people. I was able to work from here, so I did sixty live broadcasts from, in effect, my back garden during lockdown. Adam: It's really interesting that you talk about your girls sort of feeling a sense of isolation because they came from the city and now are in a very rural area. I often find that it's a curious thing to get one's head round because really the nature debate about sustainability and trying to be better for the world is often very strongly led by young people. Alice: Oh it's theirs, it's completely their campaign! But I'm not sure that they associate it with, I mean, I feel like I'm treading on dangerous territory speaking, you know, putting words into their mouths because they're both very eloquent, quite passionate girls. I feel that I'm not sure that they would stand out in a field and say “we must protect this”. Probably coming from the city, they feel more that they see stuff, they see things going into bins, they see landfill, smoke, pollution. So, they see the big preservation of our world from a city perspective, probably more than standing in a field and thinking “oh this must never have, you know, thousands of houses built on it”, which is what probably makes me panic as much as anything. Adam: Do you get a sense of a change in people's attitudes in the way they behave, I mean, I think people talk about the need for ecological sustainability. I see amongst my friends and family, I have to also be careful about what I'm saying, I see less actually willingness to change personal behaviour than a willingness to say it's important, but they don't do an awful lot. Do you see that real difference? Alice: I'm a huge hypocrite, but I am now suddenly, it was probably about six months ago I was putting something in the bin, and it sounds like a strange Greta Thunberg epiphany, but it slightly was. I was putting some plastic in the bin, and I was trying to clear out a room and I was thinking this is going nowhere! This can't be recycled. This has to go underneath the ground, and this is not going to break down. I had a sort of panic about the fact that well if I was doing this and everyone was doing this and though I sort of have had that epiphany and I am changing my behaviour, and nothing particular triggered that, apart from me clearing out a bedroom and realising I had too much stuff. You know, which is odd, but you know, in terms of the big picture in the world I think it's very hard to make individuals feel responsible when we see big companies not taking responsibility. It's that sort of, well what difference is little me gonna make? And I've sort of had that, well I'm going to make a difference, so I will. I've had that moment and I think we have to all have that moment and I'm just about to fall into the River Avon, which could be interesting! I'm trying to encourage the dogs to have a drink. There you go guys, come on, look Tilly have a drink! Yeah well they're sort of having a drink, but I'm the one that's most likely to go in here. Adam: Well look, Alice, I feel split because I quite like the sound effect of you going in to end this, it'd be a great end wouldn't it! But on the other hand not a great way of re meeting after all these years. Look I will let you get on with your walk but thank you very much, thanks a lot. Alice: Thank you, thank you. Adam: Well, let's leave Alice Beer there and indeed all our friends at Avoncliff Woods. I do hope you enjoyed that and if you want to find a wood near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood and you can find a wood that's local to you. So that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that. Until next time happy wandering! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Welcome to Ticket To Gamehendge! The podcast where we discuss our favourite band, Phish, and our ultra top secret mission.. On this episode we discuss: - TAB and how they are the best Phish cover band of all time - '94 has been calling Adam - It's crazy how different Phish was to all of the other 90's bands - Who invented the type II jam? - Is type III jamming even a thing? - Cow funk? - The Undermine Podcast - And, much more...

How to turn your passion for visiting yard sales and thrift stores into a profitable side hustle. - FREE WORKSHOPWhat's up, guys? Today, we have the honor of introducing and interviewing Adam Smith, who has just recently within the last year jumped into flipping, but he's made some, sweet flips and he's made some awesome progress towards this reselling a side hustle, or profession, whatever you want to call it. So we're very honored, very glad to have Adam to the show. Adam, welcome. Thank you so much for jumping on here.Adam: Oh, thank you, Rob and Melissa. It's great to be [00:01:00] here.Melissa: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little background of you.Adam: Well, sure. I'm 41 years old. I have two young children, and two and four months, and I work a boring corporate job.And about a year ago, I, got into flipping, with the help of my mother who's been selling on eBay for years and years as a hobby and having fun. And she came and visited, for the holidays and we've said, well, let's sell some of this stuff around the house. And that's how I kinda got going, just selling stuff around the house.And, I had so much fun with it that I said, well, I'm going to start going to the thrift store. And I started selling stuff from the thrift store. And then, you know, I like to research stuff and I started a, what the heck is this reselling stuff? What the heck is flipping? And then that's how I found you guys and your videos on YouTube.And then that's really where it [00:02:00] launched, there. You know, a couple months after I started with my mom, I had found you guys. And I said, wow, we can really, I can really make some extra money at this. And this is really super fun. So that's probably more than you wanted in introducing myself, but...Rob: No, that was great. That's exactly what we want. We want your backstory, what you're doing, kind of how you found this career, this side hustle, whatever it is for everybody. So no, that's great. And you said one thing that throws a wrench into anybody's flipping business. You have young kids, you have a full-time job and you're still out there and you're doing amazing at flipping.So, yeah, that's awesome. Very, very exciting that, that is part of your journey and that's where you're at right now. So, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.Melissa: The kids take a lot of time. We know, very well, how much they take from your time, and we love it obviously, but it there's a lot less time left in the day to do anything else. So.Rob: The other thing I liked about what you said is you started from the stuff that's in your house. And a lot of people they find out about flipping and they think they have to go out and invest all this money, and then they have to have [00:03:00] all this inventory that they're not sure if it's going to sell, but you started with stuff that you had. That's kind of the way we teach people as well, stuff that you have sitting around the house, that you're not using anymore and start selling it, learn how to do the flipping and then you can actually expand and get bigger and go buy stuff that, you know, that's going to sell. So, yeah. That's awesome that that's how you started, for sure.Adam: Yeah, like I...Melissa: Go ahead. Sorry.Adam: Yeah, just having, you know, when I started, we had one, our first child, who was about two. And so I had quite a bit of extra time still, compared to what I have now. Now we have a four-month-old baby around the house, so it's really put a crunch on the amount of time, free time that I have to go out, you know, yard saling or thrifting, or just, you know, searching on Facebook marketplace for items. But I'll say it, it's still, I think the max I put in on a weekly basis would be 10, you know, 15 hours at the most. And I'm able to squeeze that in, you [00:04:00] know, after everyone's in bed, I'll, you know, do some listing of items or packaging up of items and stuff at night.So I, and I still get to bed at a reasonable hour. And then of course the kids have me up at 5:00 or 6:00 AM or something. So yeah, I think my sales in the first month, half of the year, we're really, really strong before baby came in June. And then it really tanked from June, July, and August. I really didn't have a lot of time cause baby was so young.But now that we've kind of settled into a routine and I can have that time at night and a little bit in the early morning to do flipping stuff, I'm right back to where I was in the beginning part of the year.Melissa: Awesome. So when you, you're saying around 10 to 15 hours, when you're on your kind of normal schedule, so what is that usually average a month when you're on the normal schedule?Rob: Income wise, that, that brings up a great point because a lot of people want to know if I can throw an extra 5 hours, 10 hours at this business, what can I expect? And you're like you said, you're [00:05:00] a new flipper within the last 12 months you've been actually doing this. So, kind of give us some numbers, you know, maybe averages, that you've been able to do on the selling side of it.Adam: Yeah, my average sales per month are around I think between $5,000 and $7,000 a month, I would say.Rob: That's awesome. I love it.Adam: Some months are better than like I said, June, July, August was a little, a little slow just because I didn't have a lot of time to list and, and stay on top of it. But I have, I have no doubt that if I, if I went full time at this, I could completely replace my corporate income and more. So like, this is my first year.I think I will end up around $70,000 to $80,000 in total sales and that's with just starting slow too. Cause I didn't find you guys until January or February of this year and that's when things really took off.Rob: Dude, you're you're, you're blowing my mind and I have so many questions [00:06:00] right now about just this $5,000 to $7,000 a month. The next question is kind of what's your niche? What, how are you getting to that's a substantial amount of money for a side hustle. What exactly are you doing? Like, what is your niche that you're doing to get to move the mountain on that? To make that money?Adam: I would say the two categories I do the most are appliances, you know, cooking cooktops, ranges, and then Sleep Number beds is probably the, the second category where I do really, really well. And what I've kind of moved into now, especially after, baby came in June is it's been harder to move larger items like ranges and stuff like that. So I started parting out cooktops and ranges and stuff that, cause it's so much easier to ship, you know, a small switch or a burner, and the money, the return is really good on those. Cause you can [00:07:00] often pick up a little bit older appliances that all the components still work, but you know, they're not the newest model or whatever, all the switches and valves and stuff like that still work on them.And I just part them out in the garage at night and then I list all those items and I sell them for a really good profit, you know, so I can take a range that I pick up for free or for less than a hundred dollars and, you know, flip it and make $500 to a thousand dollars on the parts off that range. So that's where I'm really kind of niching down into right now is, is, is the parting out appliances.Melissa: That's funny. We actually just went to dinner with one of our other course members the other day, and she brought up a point. She had a cooktop and it was or a range, I don't know if it... was it a range? She got it and it was missing one knob. She's like, it's fine. I'll go. I'll just purchase the knob. And she went to go purchase the knob and it was $300.Rob: $300.Melissa: And I think that's what she paid for the whole thing. And she's like, all right, well now, but then she ended up selling the [00:08:00] other three knobs for $300 or $400 each. So she was like, she just parted it out. It's like that. There you go.Rob: And I want to call attention to this. This is a great point. Some of you guys that do know Melissa and I, we do large items and it sounds like Adam does some larger items too, but he's also found a niche where he can part out items, sell smaller items and still make great, great money at it. So, yeah, that that's really, really an awesome point.Melissa: Sky's the limit.Rob: It is. You do not have to do super large items. And that's the big thing Melissa and I found with what we do, it's less time than selling tons and tons of small items. But if you're getting into these smaller items that have a higher profits on them, because...Melissa: Your knob is worth $300.Rob: Exactly. Adam's probably talking about appliances there, you know, maybe anywhere from 5 to 10 years old and people have one thing goes bad on it and Adam's got the replacement for it for a good price underneath what it would be for a retail price, if they had to go and order it from Whirlpool.Melissa: And half the time you can't find them anymore because they're older.Rob: Exactly. Exactly. So that's a great, great piece of advice, Adam. I love that, that you're actually thinking [00:09:00] outside the box and you're making some great money on smaller items, but higher profit, smaller items. So that's awesome. Great tip.Adam: Yeah, it's kind of enabled me to, to also limit the amount of time you spend listing and cleaning up some of those older items. And so now with the appliances, if I'm going to sell it and flip the larger cooktop or a full range, I pretty much will, I want to make sure they're in good condition when I buy them. So I still go for that, whatever profit I want to make, you know, 10 times profit is kind of what I look for, based on your advice.But if it's going to take me five or six hours to clean up that older thing, it's, it's just, doesn't become worth it. So I'll just part it out, it's easier to just tear it down. I can do that in an hour. I can tear down range an hour and, you know, to spend less time on it. I don't know if that makes sense.Rob: It does. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Categorize it and take it that tear down. There's only so many pieces to these, these appliances that you're working with. You, you know, you have wires, you have boards, you [00:10:00] have knobs. So there's only so many pieces that are really worth the money to flip. And it's another point to it that you didn't even say you, once you do it, you tear it down.You can get rid of the big components. You're not even storing that stuff. You take it to the scrap yard. You throw it away, whatever you do. So it is a lot easier in some aspects to do that. So, yeah. That's awesome. I love how your brain's thinking and working this whole, this whole process out. Cause you're doing yeah, you're doing amazing. So I'm super excited.Melissa: That's funny.Adam: That's another fortunate thing is my local community has a waste diversion center where I can recycle all the other components for free. I just dropped them off, you know, all the big metal components. So that's, that's worked out really well.Rob: I love it. I love it. That is that's amazing.Melissa: So if you have to reflect all the way back for this last year, I think it's awesome that you've only been at it for a year. What would you say are a couple of things that have contributed to your finding success, maybe like habits?Rob: Great question.Adam: That's a good question. I think [00:11:00] just kind of the discipline of, of even though when you're tired and, and, and don't want to go out to the garage and tear down a range or whatever, just making sure I, you know, you set goals of, I want to list one item per day. That's one thing the group has been really helpful with holding me accountable. We have a lot of challenges in the group, you know, we have the 30-day listing challenge, so that sticks in my head. I'm like, well, I got it. I don't want it, but okay. I gotta go out and do that cause I want to be able to post in the group that I made my listing for the day. Staying positive too, because there are challenges that have come up this year where, you know, for example, I had someone return a thousand dollar cooktop.They returned a different one than I had sent them. And, you know, they had, you know, it was a big scam. They were trying to, you know, it was fraudulent of course. And that was really stressful because it was, you know, I had paid the shipping. I had had to pay for them to ship it back to me cause I, [00:12:00] and so there was a lot of money on the line.So working through that, staying positive, knowing that everything can be kind of figured out and like it'll work out, in the right way in the end. That's not really a habit though. You can take that part out.Rob: But it's good. No, no, no, I like that. That's good. That's honest. We're working through a return right now, and that's one of the things that people, it does happen. There's bad parts to business. There are, there are bad parts that you do not want to deal with. And we're doing the same thing right now and you have to figure out the best way to do it, the best way to do it ,the best way to work it. And then you learn from every single situation.So even that return that you did, I guarantee you learn some stuff out of that return that you're not going to do the next time around. You're going to do it differently. So sometimes, I mean, we call it. It's not our coined phrase, but stupid tax to where you maybe acted quick out of something or you did something you learn from that, and I do the same thing every time I have something like this happens and you learn for the next [00:13:00] situation, how to handle it better.Melissa: To know is that those things they don't happen very often. Unfortunately, that's what keeps people from doing a reselling side hustle, because they'll think, oh, I don't want you know, to lose money on returns, but like that's the first return we've had in a year and a half.Rob: Yeah.Melissa: You're going to have that part of business in any business you do.Rob: And I'm sure you're the same way as a $1,000 cooktop, if you're making $5,000 $7,000 a month, you're not dealing with these all the time.Same with us. We've made probably $150,000 and ours was the same thing. A thousand dollars. A $1,300 that we're dealing with. And we'll come out okay with ours because I'll have insurance claim on it because it was damaged. But at the same time, it's just a little bit of red tape that you have to go through.So, I think that's great advice for people listening. This is not all hunky-dory. You still will have to work in there's some, some situations that will come up. It's how you shine through those situations and how you learn from them.Adam: Yes. Yeah. I would agree with that. That maybe the discipline or the habit there is just treating each situation as a, as a learning. You know, really, [00:14:00] since I'm in my first year, It's really, I've done a lot of stuff like that, where I'm going to just going to try this because I want to learn what it's like. You know, I want to learn how to do this. I obviously, I didn't try to do a return or a, a scam, but,Rob: You learn how to handle it though. You learned that it is, that stuff happens. Not that often. Trust me. I've never had,Melissa: I've never heard that with that big of a cooktop.Rob: No.Adam: It was a pretty gutsy move by them to return a completely different, it was the same model. Thankfully, I, I had taken pictures of the serial number and those were in the posting and, you know, we had to go, I had to go through the whole thing of filing a police report and all of that.And eBay did refund me. I did, I do think the buyer did probably, he got refunded automatically, you know, when, when he returned the thing. So, I don't know if he got flagged in the eBay system or not, and taken out, but they did refund me as well after I filed the police report and gave them the evidence. It all worked out in the end, you know, it was, you know.Rob: And that's, [00:15:00] that's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. You might've done a couple of things different than you did, but you had the proof that it was a different cooktop that he returned. You filed a police report, you got to the end of it. And you got your money back on the situation, on the, on the sale. Trust me, it's a headache, but everything is a learning experience. So like I said, you probably would do a couple things different or you probably know next time it happens.Melissa: But he had the pictures that was a big part of it.Rob: Exactly, it's huge to be able to have that. So, no, I, I kudos to you. I think that's awesome.And you're in your first year. A lot of people will roll over when something like this happens and go, oh, I'm outta here. I'm not flipping anymore. I can't do it when this is the result. And, it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen sometimes. You have to be able to roll with the punches.You have to learn from it and you have to move forward. So, that's awesome that that's, that's your mindset and that's where you're at right now. I, yeah, I applaud you for sure.Adam: Yeah. I did feel that way that week, you know, I had several returns that we could, another damaged cooktop and it was, it was pretty low point and it was thanks to the group too, you know, Stacy,I don't know if I can [00:16:00] say her name on this public... Stacy really helped me through both of those events. And if it weren't for the group, I think, you know, I really would have considered like, maybe this isn't for me, but yeah, she really supported me a lot of time on Facebook messenger. Like, this is how you do that.This is, you know, this is what you should do, a lot of great advice. So, I'm Immensely grateful for not only Stacy but the whole group too on getting through stuff like that.Rob: Good, andMelissa: something to say about having a like mind, like just encouraging people to do it at the same time. So when you do something like that, or have something like that happen, then you do have people alongside of you and you can figure it out.Rob: And some of you guys not know the group he's talking about. We actually have Flipper University. We have a core members, a members group Flipping For Profit, that everybody who goes through our university, we have a free members only group, and that's what he's talking about. We have close to a thousand people in there. Like-minded people that do exactly this, [00:17:00] they're flippers. So it's really, really cool just to be able to interact and I'm sure there's other groups out there like this, guys. Well, ours, isn't the only one, but get involved in one, if you can. That's, that's one of those things is being around like-minded people who can help you. You know, we have all different stages in our group, people that are just starting, and then professional flippers, like us, that are doing it full time. So you have great advice from everybody, which is awesome.Melissa: Yeah, so let us know what is one of your more memorable flips aside from maybe that cooktop?Adam: Let me see. More memorable flips. I think you guys have asked me this question before, too. I don't know that this is a great one for me, because everything seems so boring. You know, it's all like,Rob: Yeah, maybe a high profit, one of your highest profit flips. That, I mean, that's what sticks out to me when I think about stuff.Adam: Well, I think you guys both know about this one, but, one of, one of a more recent one that was really fun is I picked up a cooktop for a hundred dollars on a [00:18:00] Sunday afternoon. And it was in great shape, hardly had any use. I, I brought it home, wiped it down, took my 12 photos, posted it on eBay. It sold the next morning for $1,300. I shipped it out like two days later. So like turning around $1,200. Well, it wasn't all $1,200 profit, but turning that around, within like a couple of days, it was pretty amazing. That was one of my fastest flips I've ever seen.Rob: I love it. That is a great one. And it is memorable that when you make those flips, yeah. You're, you're proud of yourself. I mean, you found a good deal you got it on, you gave somebody else a really good deal for the cooktop. So, no, that's awesome. I love it. And yeah, cooktops, are they're a lot of fun you, if you know what you're doing, and you find those right cooktops to flip, you can make some serious, serious money as Adam's showing us right now, for sure.Melissa: If you had to have, like, if you wanted to give a tip or two, like for somebody just getting started in this, like what would be like one thing that you maybe wish you would've known when you first started that like, [00:19:00] okay that you would give to somebody?Adam: A good tip, I think it just, you know, find the reseller community online, whether that be Flipper University and the group that we're in or whatever it is. There's so many resources out there available for free to get you going. That would be my first bit of advice, beyond the standard of, you know, start with stuff that's in your house and that will help you learn the process of eBay or whatever platform you're using to sell on. And it's low, really low risk. And then, but finding that online community of support. It is priceless. It's gonna, they're going to help you through everything from listing to shipping, to dealing with difficult customers or difficult returns and, all of that stuff. So, that would be my, if someone's serious about it and really wants to do it, it's find the community.Melissa: Awesome.Rob: That is great advice because it is, it's not, you're not doing this alone. And you've learned that. When you have people around you who are there to [00:20:00] build you up, when you're having that bad day of, hey I had a return or even a bad week of I had a couple returns and I'm trying to figure out what's the best, what's the next step in these returns, you have those people around you that are building you up and helping you stay focused and work through these situations. So you get past them, you get through them and then you just can keep going on. So a community is a huge thing and that's really cool that you've seen that.Because it does, it helps a ton in this business, if you have the like-minded people around you. For sure. So a great, great tip. Great advice for sure.Melissa: I'm not sure if we asked this though, before, what are your major platforms that you're selling on?Adam: Pretty much, I would say 90% on eBay. I do sell a little locally off of Facebook Marketplace so or OfferUp, and that's mostly items I don't want to ship, or it's just easier to flip locally. So yeah, 90, 90%, 95% on eBay.Melissa: Yeah. That's about ours, same.Rob: Awesome, same as us. Yeah. eBay's our main go just because of the people that it reaches, that's it. And then local. So awesome. Well, [00:21:00] Adam, thank you so much for jumping on here and giving us all this great information. You are, you know, you are, you're a year into it, but you have so much wisdom and knowledge in that year.I'm super excited to watch your, your journey unfold, and all the flips that you're gonna make in the next year. So. Congratulations. Thank you so much for, just giving, everybody, some great, great tips and some great advice on how to, how to further their reselling business. So thank you, thank you.Melissa: Thank you.Adam: Thanks Rob and Melissa. It was great to be on. Thanks for all you've done for me too.Rob: Of course, of course. All right. Have a great day, Adam. Thank you so much.Yup. Thanks guys. Bye.

Worried about Ai? Your emotions are your job security, and working with technology will be key to future success in voice over. In this bonus Voice & Ai episode, Anne chats with Ryan Hicks and Adam Fritz of Pozotron - an audiobook proofing service. Listen as they dive deep into the future of audiobook production, and discuss how the connections between human emotion & AI is a voice actor's greatest ally… More at https://voboss.com/voice-and-ai-pozotron-with-ryan-hicks-and-adam-fritz  Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Welcome, everyone, to the VO BOSS podcast, the AI and Voice series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited and honored to bring you very special guests Adam Fritz and Ryan Hicks of Pozotron, a powerful AI software that helps audiobook professionals make their audio productions more accurate, efficient, and profitable. Adam is the COO of Pozotron and leads the operations and business development arms of the company. And Ryan has a 10-year history in the audiobook industry, having spent eight of those years as a proofer and editor with Deyan before coming over to Pozotron. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure. Both: Thanks for having us. Anne: So if you don't mind, I'd like to start off with serving the need for having a wonderful piece of software like Pozotron. So I'd like to ask, Ryan, since your background as an editor and proofer at Deyan probably gave you lots of reasons to want to have things that would make your job easier. So tell us a little bit about what you did on a day-to-day basis and what type of tools you use to do your job, and then what your pain points were. Ryan: Oh man. So proofing and editing at Deyan. So we, wow. How do I even turn that into something small? Anne: Well, so there were a lot of were a lot of pain points. I would imagine -- Ryan: I mean the whole thing, the whole thing is a pain point. So we would get professionally recorded material and try to make it more professional quickly, in the door, out the door. So we had a series of steps that we would go through to kind of standardize the process of editing and proofing at the absolute highest level. And we had some fantastically intricate manuals about spacing and noise floors and RMS and mastering techniques and what you had to use for all of these things. And then add that to the fact that we're just listening for everything that possibly could be going wrong. Misreads, noises, thunks in the background, wrong character voices, anything that you would have to give a note back to the narrator, that was my job for eight years was finding all of those notes and giving them back. Anne: Wow, so let's just say then for an average size audiobook, how long would it take back and forth between you and the author before you were able to resolve all of these issues? Ryan: So we were super compartmentalized at Deyan. I never talked to an author. I never talked to a rights holder. There was a production manager and a head of post that would take those projects and give them to us. And we gave those projects back to the head of post. Anne: Got it. So how long would you say, do you have an idea of how long it might take? Is there so many days of revisions back and forth or was it weeks before you would finally get the edited version that you needed? And that was correct? Ryan: So it happened a couple of different ways. If narrators were coming in house to the studios at Deyan, they would record during a six-hour session. And at the end of that session, they would send three hours of audio to the editors. And we basically had that day to try and get it done. Anne: Wow. Ryan: So three sessions from a narrator would be about a whole book. And so during that period, we would be editing, and then someone would be proofing after us. And then hopefully within a week, that would be back to that narrator to do the pickups and then finish it up. So we would have anywhere between a 14 and 21-day turnaround. Anne: Got it. Ryan: And we just kept trying to tighten that down further and further and further and make it as efficient as possible. Anne: And I think that there, this is my own experience. I am not an audiobook narrator, however I narrate corporate and long form narration. And so for me, my editing, I can only get it so efficient. There is an amount of time in terms of listening to it to make sure there's no errors as well as the time it then takes to edit those and then go back into the studio and rerecord and then come back and check it again. And so there's a certain amount of time, and I wish I could get it faster, but I just can't. And so I know it must be completely frustrating in terms of having, you know, hours of book material to be able to prove and edit. And I'm just talking, like, maybe my maximum would be, you know, an hour module at a time, and I would do maybe eight or ten modules, but still the process to me, I never got it to a point where I was as quick as I wanted it or needed it to be. And so fast forward to the future, how did you find Pozotron or how did they find you? Ryan: Jamie, my boss, and correct me if you know this part of the story, Adam, it was Jamie that found Jake, right, at a conference? Adam: I believe so, yes. Anne: And Jamie is Deb's right-hand man. And Jamie came to me and said, "oh my gosh, you have to look at this. You have to see what this company is doing." And when he showed me, I'm like, this is ridiculous. We don't need this. I've been doing this for seven years. I don't need some computer program checking my work. I'm fine at what I do. And we set it through dozens of tests. And this is early in Pozotron when they were still kind of working the kinks out. And I never beat Pozotron. I would check my work as soon as I did my foolproof, and I would run it through the software, and there was always things that I missed. Anne: Wow. Ryan: And so I finally, you know, as much as I shook my fist at it, suddenly I had a backup, right? I had a backup, and as soon as I was done, all we had to do was upload the files. And 20 minutes later, I would get a chance to scan through. And there it is, there's those three things that I missed. Anne: Wow. Ryan: There's those five things that I missed. And so we would add that onto my proofing report, and suddenly pickups that were coming back from the publisher, not just from me, but through all of our proofers were coming back in the single digits. And it was, it was awesome. That transition was great. Anne: That's incredible. So you were kind of a, you're a believer now. Ryan: Yeah. Having that safety net when you're -- Anne: Yeah. Ryan: -- when you're tired -- Anne: Absolutely. Ryan: -- when you've been working for eight hours already having that backup was fantastic. Anne: Awesome. Okay. So Adam, let's talk a little bit about Pozotron and how did the company come about? Adam: Like any good software company, you know, the, the core software is designed to solve a pain point. Anne: Yeah. Adam: So it's actually almost reversed. A lot of software companies see, okay, here's problem X, how do we create a solution to solve that problem? But in this case, it was almost backwards. Jake Poznanski, our CEO and founder, really wanted to get into AI. He'd exited a gaming, a mobile gaming company and was looking at AI and machine learning, and really liked some research going on about forced alignment. That's basically matching text and audio files together, and basically came up with the idea of the technology and then went about trying to apply that technology to a problem to solve. So he almost went around it backwards, um, came across the whole concept of audio -- he was a big listener of audiobooks and just how -- manual isn't the right word, but how time-consuming it was to prove an audiobook. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I mean, when I describe it to people who are not at all involved in the industry, you basically sit down with a PDF and headphones -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- and have to listen and read at the same time, which is tremendously difficult. So basically he designed it as not a way to replace a proofer, but designed this really fantastic and unique tool as a way to add that kind of extra set of eyes. So really the whole goal of Pozotron on the proofing side, that is our core technology, is to get the ratio of time spent proofing to the actual time of the audio or as close to one-to-one as possible. Anne: Yeah, right. Adam: So it should take an hour of time to proof and report on the pickups for an hour of audio. Anne: Makes sense. Adam: Without Pozotron, I think that's certainly a much higher, probably a two to one or three to one at least ratio. The goal with Pozotron is still -- Anne: Oh, absolutely. Adam: It's going to take you an hour to listen to an hour of audio, but instead of doing that, and then spending 20 minutes or half an hour putting together a pickup packet by copying things -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- out into an Excel spreadsheet -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- you click two buttons, and that pickup packets ready to go, and you just email that to your narrator, and they start recording right away. So that's really the goal is to get that ratio as close to one-to-one as possible. Anne: Yeah. And I'll tell you, that's very interesting because, for as many years as I've been in the industry doing long form narration editing, I have never been able to get quicker than one to three, and I am a stickler. You know what I'm like, no, I can do it. I can, I can get better than that. And I just can't, and it's, it's frustrating. And it's time-consuming, and it's also, it's very tedious. It's one of the, I would much rather be in the booth doing the creative, doing, you know, what I like to think I do best, you know, the artistry of it all to be in the booth and do that. And many people will outsource their work to an editor, but I always like to have the first check for myself. And it's not that I wouldn't outsource it, but that still, even if I outsourced it to an editor, it would take the editor just as much time as me or probably a little less, if that's all they do. But there was always that time element. And I could never get things back as quick as I really needed them or my client wanted them to be. And also if I had like a quick pickup to do, and I had an editor and I had outsourced it to an editor, they usually put their own filters on it that they don't necessarily tell me, or they might be using a different software. And so therefore, if I needed a really quick pickup, it was one of the things where if I outsource to an editor, it became a little awkward if I couldn't get that editor like right away, you know? And a lot of times the client would be like, well, look, it's just one sentence. Why is it taking you two days to get me that sentence back? And it just might be because I'm trying to tie in the editor's time as well. So that just added to it all. So I can absolutely see the pain point of needing something, or it would be wonderful to have something that could get it down to a one-to-one ratio. So tell me a little bit about how your software does that or how it works, kind of on a step-back scale. Adam: Yeah. So basically the end goal is if you've never seen how Pozotron works, you press play, you upload your manuscript, you upload your audio, our forced alignment algorithm basically pairs the two and gives you essentially what -- to simplify it, it's kind of like a spellcheck for recorded audio. It gives you an output of what we call annotations, which are things Pozotron thinks are a missed word. So a word that you, in the manuscript, you didn't say it during the narration, an added word, which happens a lot. I have two young kids and I read them a lot of stories. And it's amazing how often I just add words for no reason -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- mispronounced words, as well as extra long pauses. So really the goal is what it does is it gives you an output saying, hey, you just put an hour of audio in. Here's the 32 things that Pozotron thinks are incorrect. What you need to do then is as you're going through, we recommend that people continue doing their full listen. So listen to every second recorded. Um, but what it does is allows people to decide, hey, Pozotron thinks that I mispronounced the word microphone because I'm looking at the word microphone on my computer right now. And you need to listen to that and say, yes, that's a mispronunciation or no, it's not. If you click pick up, it automatically goes onto your pickup report and eliminates all that manual time of creating those reports. But at its core, we have a forced alignment algorithm based on tens of thousands of hours of audio data that basically take the spoken word, compare that to the text word. And then using a probability matrix, says, we believe that this was correctly pronounced or incorrectly pronounced, as close to a 100% accuracy as you could ever get. Anne: Got it. How does it handle like words like names and how does it, how does it handle accents and different languages too? Adam: So I'll answer the last part first 'cause that's the easiest. Anne: Okay. Adam: Uh, we currently support English, Spanish, Swedish, and then French and German are in beta right now. Anne: Okay, okay. Great. Adam: So we do support them, but they're just not at the level of accuracy of the English or Spanish, primarily just because we don't have that volume of data -- Anne: Okay. Adam: -- to continue training our algorithm on. In terms of names, really, as long as it is a phonetically pronounced name, Pozotron will be able to handle it. In the name of like, what's a good example of -- a word that is spelled one way and pronounced something completely separate. Um, Pozotron will occasionally have trouble with that because what -- the way Pozotron works is, if it is phonetically correct, it will mark it as correct. But if it is, um -- Ryan, do you have a good example of a word, of a word like that? I can't think of one off the top of my head right now. Ryan: I mean, we keep using lagxoor as our sci-fi name. Anne: Lagxoor. Adam: So that would be spelled L-A-G-X-O-O-R, but pronounced L-A-G-Z-O-O-R. Pozotron will mark lag sewer as an incorrect pronunciation of L-A-G-X-O-O-R because phonetically it's incorrect. So that's why Pozotron a lot of the tools we have, our pronunciation analysis tool, our character voice guide is great to help narrators, authors, production managers, anyone involved do their preparation before the project even starts. So our proofing tool's designed to catch pickups after they happen. Our prep tools are designed to stop pickups from before you've even started recording. Anne: Can you train it for a specific name somehow or phonetically spell it so that it can then, I guess, mimic or figure out if that's correct or not? Adam: So there's a couple of things. One, yes, every time we retrain our algorithm, it gets more and more accurate. But what you can do is we have a -- let's say that Lagxoor, for example, say it's a main character, and Pozotron for the 200 times it's mentioned in the book -- Anne: Right. Adam: -- Pozotron thinks, "we think this is incorrect." Anne: Right. Adam: We have a filter out button that basically is like the ignore all in Microsoft word when you're doing spell check. "This is not a mistake. Pozotron, I know you think this is a mistake because it's phonetically wrong." You click filter out, and it will ignore every other mention of that word. Anne: Got it. Interesting now, okay. Here's a question just because I do a lot of work in medical, and a lot of times in medical, like, I don't know the word enough, so that each time it occurs in the instance of my script, that I can pronounce it exactly the same, unless I go, and I mark up my script, and I phonetically spell it each and every time, I might forget like that 10th time to emphasize the middle syllable, rather than the other syllable. Will it catch those? Or is that something that we have to just, you know, we're on the lookout for that? Adam: So again, two answers there. So the first one is we have a tool called scan occurrences, which we should probably rename it, something a little, a little better than that, but scan occurrence is what it allows to do. So let's say for example, "doliosolaphic," um, which I, I mispronounced, I butchered that, but I named that because it came up in a demo I did the other day. You can choose that one word and click scan, and it will play every single mention of that word in the audio, back to back to back to back to back. Anne: Nice! Adam: You can listen to that straight through for consistency. It's great for character names as well. Anne: Oh, that's fantastic! That'd make my life easy, a live. Adam: I have an example of a customer the other day, who was doing a book, and the word shaman, S-H-A-M-A-N, which could be pronounced "Shaw man" or "shay man". Anne: Right. Adam: He pronounced shaman nine times as "Shaw man" and one time -- Anne: Right. Adam: -- for "shay man." So he used that feature to catch that, and then you can select individual ones and either mark those individual examples of that, mark those as a pickup in your audio, or you can just export a DAW file to put a marker -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- in every mention of that word in your, in your DAW file or your DAW session to help your editor. Anne: Got it. So then at the core of all of this is AI, right? Adam: Yes. Correct. Anne: That is, it's learning. So when we upload our manuscripts and we upload our audio, is that going into help the model become more intelligent, or do you have a model that exists already and you're feeding it other data? Adam: We started by bootstrapping with publicly available data, whether it's Librivox or any of those other things. Anne: Sure. Adam: But when someone uploads audio, it's very spelled out in our terms of service, and we're going to be redoing our website right around Halloween. We'll be launching a new, just explaining exactly what we're using data for. But essentially what we do is we take random snippets of audio, audio and text paired together. And we feed those into our algorithm to train it. And this is not training it to replicate the human voice. This is training it to better recognize the human voice and the exact thing that is spoken based on the text. Anne: Got it. Adam: So it's basically just, it's almost like every bit of audio is like another drop in the swimming pool. None of it is -- you can't identify a single drop of water in a swimming pool. It all gets aggregated. Yeah. That's what we do. We basically make it so it's completely non-identifiable from an individual voice or anything like that perspective or personal identified information. But what it does is it just continues as we feed more and more data in and retrain, it just makes it more and more effective because we have more examples, more different accents, more different dialects to improve the accuracy of our algorithm. Anne: Got it. So now, do you have any plans to ever like create voices at all in your software in order to like maybe help with pickups? Or is that something that you're not really looking at? Adam: So I'm going to start with what exactly what it says in our terms of service, which is we can never do that -- Anne: Okay. Adam: -- without the express written consent of the person who uploaded the audio. Anne: Got it. Adam: So currently it is not in our plans, even from, from a business perspective. Even if we wanted to, there are companies out there that have a four or five-year headstart on us. Anne: Sure. Adam: So it would be kind of a dumb, it would be a dumb business decision. Um, I could see a future where maybe there would be a feature where you could say, say, you said, Anne instead of V, you could have a, you know, basically copy and -- Anne: Paste. Adam: -- copy and paste that word. But from a, from an AI perspective, we have, we'd have to be pretty careful on how we manage that and negotiate that with our customers -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- because we would never do it in the way that is looking to replace that customer in full. We'd just be using that -- or that narrator in full -- we'd just be using anything that we ever did, which is quite a ways out, based on the current product roadmap. Um, it would be an assist to that narrator and not be to replace that narrator. Anne: Got it. So, in terms of, let's say AI, AI in general, people fear it because I think for the most part, a lot of that fear is based on, they don't necessarily know exactly how it works or -- and they're probably very fearful that it's going to take their job away, which is not a surprise that people in the voiceover industry are afraid that AI is going to take their job away. And so what is your outlook on that? What do you, what do you say to that in terms of your software? And I know that you're not creating voices at this moment, but you are using AI technology. Adam: Yeah. So AI by itself is not Skynet from Terminator. It's not something to be feared. It's kind of like AI does what it is designed to do. So if it is designed to replace a narrator, that's what it'll do. In our case, if it is designed to be an assist to a narrator, that's what it'll do. So AI by itself is not something to fear. Reality is the companies that are creating AI voices are getting better and better. I've listened to a couple of samples lately, and some of them are really good, but the human narrator will always have that lead in terms of the humanness of the voice that -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- no matter how much -- it's like that Tom Hanks movie, "The Polar Express" a while ago where it almost got to the -- the animation was so accurate, it got weird. It was -- Anne: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam: I think it's called the -- Anne: Uncanny valley, right? Adam: Uncanny valley, that's it. Anne: Yeah. Adam: It's the same thing with AI narrators is -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- I don't think no matter -- it'll never get all the way there, but the advantages the AI narrators have over humans is they're faster, they're more accurate, and they're cheaper. So people -- we basically say, look, Pozotron is a tool. Anne: Oh wait! Say that again, please. That I, you know, how many people are going to love to hear you say that? That humans are cheap -- you know, in reality, I think they are. Adam: Yeah. So I think that's the advantage. The advantage is not that the AI narrators are better than humans, human narrators, because that's not. Anne: Exactly. Adam: But they're faster -- Anne: yeah. Adam: They're faster, they're more accurate, and they're cheaper. They're most of the time more accurate, I should say. Anne: Yeah. Adam: So using a tool like Pozotron, humans will always have that lead -- Anne: Yes. Adam: -- in the humanness of their voice -- Anne: Exactly. Adam: -- but using tools like Pozotron or many other things out there, or even just a better workflow, will help humans catch up to those AI narrators in terms of speed, accuracy and efficiency. So we kind of pitch our tool as it's almost a way for narrators to stay ahead -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- of the AI voices that aren't going anywhere. So that's really what we're trying to do is, you know, use the same tools to help narrators rather than take over some of this stuff out there. But I will say one thing, I think, no matter how good these AI voices get, there will always be a place for human voices. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I think and a lot of these companies are saying, look, we're just narrating the backlist or, you know, it'll be great for a history textbook. Something that's a thriller or a romance that requires that human emotion -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- to really make it a piece of art that audiobooks are rather than just something to listen to. One of -- our CEO said the other day, "look, if I wanted to listen to a cheaper, crappier audiobook, I'd say, 'Alexa, read me my book.'" Anne: Interesting. Yeah. And you expect it, and I think when you hit that uncanny valley where it becomes too human, you're right. It kind of, there's a point where you believe, you think it's human, then all of a sudden, maybe you'll hear that note that kind of doesn't sound right. And it'll be like, "ooh, did I just get duped? Is that a person? I thought that was a person." And then I think there's a whole trust factor when that hits. And so I agree that I think when you need that human element, I think we'll always need that. And I think in that respect, that is quicker than AI in terms of, you know, some of the companies that I've been talking to and what I've seen right now, out in AI, while these voices are great or they can sound pretty human, I think they're only human in one instance. So if you ever had to go back and redirect, right? Adam: Yeah. Anne: You know, that emotion that they just emoted, it's the same, no matter if you put it at the front of the script or the, in the middle of the script of the end of the script. And I think if you have a human that you can redirect and have a slightly different nuance of sad, I think that's where humans are quicker and can actually -- I don't know if you can say it can be cheaper because I think these AI voices, they're on computers. They basically are generated by engines. And so somewhere in the ethers, you know, there's a computer out there creating that job or creating that audio for the job, and there's money, you know. Adam: For sure. Anne: There's -- that costs money. And so I feel like the human will always be there. What type of audiobooks -- both, I'd like to get both of your opinions -- what type of audiobooks do you think an AI voice is appropriate for? Or is it not? Adam: Appropriate is a -- appropriate is a different word. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I think instead of using appropriate, I would say acceptable maybe. Anne: Okay. Adam: Anything that's not going to require huge conveyance of emotion or feeling. So that's where I think, you know, educational materials, textbooks, things like that, where you're just absorbing information, I think it is less problematic than if you're reading a book, and there's a scene where a family member dies, and it's really important that that narrator captures that sadness and all those emotions and the subtleness -- subtlety of emotions. Whereas, you know, an AI narrator probably -- or even if the AI narrator can do that, my understanding is currently there's a lot of manual work in the backend essentially saying on this syllable, AI narrator be sad, on this one, pick it up a little bit. Anne: Sure, sure. Adam: So my understanding is currently there is some manual stuff that needs to happen for it to work -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- entirely properly. Anne: Yeah. And I think that it starts to take as much time if you need to dial that emotion to a certain way or dial the speed or whatever, you're, you're changing in that AI, I think you're going to spend more time post-processing to get it to sound more human. And then it ends up taking possibly longer than a human, you know, utilizing something like Pozotron to help, right, proof and get their job done faster. Interesting. So what do you think then is the future of AI for, let's start with what would be the future of AI and how it's being used at Pozotron? And then also, how do you feel AI will ultimately be in five years or ten years? Will it take over the voiceover industry? Or what do you, what are your thoughts? Adam: I'd like Ryan to talk to his -- Ryan's got a really, I mean, we all share it, but Ryan's got an interesting vision on kind of the future of audiobook production with human, with human narrators. I'd like you to go into that, Ryan. Ryan: So as far as the future of AI in Pozotron, I don't even think of it in terms of AI, as I'm working through my day, as I'm doing my testing. That doesn't enter into much of my thought process. Having spent thousands of hours looking for misreads and doing reporting, those two things were the absolute worst part of my job. They are the hardest to do consistently. It's the easiest to make mistakes. And the fact that there's a tool, whether it's AI or not, that makes that part easier, that's my push. That's my function. The fact that AI is there helping make that part better for the proofing process, for the scanning of scripts, for all of that, it's that way to make things easier for people, and the, the AI part of it, the mechanics behind it, don't concern me all that much as a technician. And on the creative side, I would love to see AI be that tool that makes the performance go to that next level. You know that you have an AI behind you telling you when you make your mistakes. So you don't have to worry about it. Anne: Yeah. Ryan: As a narrator, okay, you have these seven pages to do and "oh, am I going to make any mistakes? How long is it going to take, you know, my engineer to get that back to me, who do I have to turn it into next? How do I note it?" All of those things are going to be in your head, but if you have a complete set of tools that look for those things, you can be absolutely peaceful and zenned out, knowing that you have this extra set of eyes and ears and knowledge behind you. And so the future to me as a performer, being able to come to their tools, their microphone and their computer, and do an entire production on their own and have it not just a one-to-one ratio with editing or proofing or -- but a one-to-one production of the whole thing, how they want it, how they love it, how it's supposed to sound. So that's what I see in a few years is a set of tools that allows you, Anne, to go up to your station and make an audiobook. Anne: I love that. Ryan: That's what I see. Anne: Yeah. Ryan: That's what I'm excited for. Anne: Yeah, it gives you the time and the peace of mind to go and be an artist -- Ryan: Yep. Anne: -- which is what you are meant to do, and not necessarily worry about how long it's going to take to edit. I love that outlook. That's wonderful. Thank you for that. Absolutely. Adam: From the AI side of that, it's really just taking either algorithms we built or algorithms we are building to basically make all of the work around audiobooks easier. So an example right now is in our next step of this character voice tool that we're using, we're building an algorithm that will score, yeah, every single mention of a character's name based on two attributes. One of them is that character. So let's take, for example, Sherlock Holmes links to a verb denoting speech also modified by an adverb. So it'll take every single mention of that character's name and the book, and give you an output of the top 20 examples of that character speaking, where there is a description about how that character spoke. So when you're putting together your character voice prep -- Anne: Wow. Adam: -- and deciding as a narrator, hey, this is the voice I'm going to use -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- you can use our tool scan to through the top 20 mentions saying Sherlock spoke aggressively, Sherlock spoke in a high tone, Sherlock spoke, exclaimed sadly, or something like that. Where you can basically use this tool to easily figure out all the cues from the book and then plan out your character's voice. Anne: Wow, that's great. Adam: And then the other side of it, so really instead of having to do what they're currently doing -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- which is reading the book with a highlighter and taking note of everything they're doing, you can parse an entire book and take all those cues in a fraction of that time while still getting the same high quality work. And then the next step of that, that we've already built into our pronunciation guide, is once you've done your work, you've created your pronunciation list. You've created your character voice guide. You can currently export that into a marked up PDF where every word in your pronunciation guide is automatically highlighted in your script with a call-out box saying this is the phonetic pronunciation -- Anne: Wow. Adam: -- or this is your note saying how, how that voice should sound. And then in the future, it's going to be a teleprompter where instead of just seeing a call-out box, you click play, and you listen to yourself speaking in that character's voice. You pause your recording, listen to yourself, and then click record again and start going. So removing all of those -- Anne: Oh, that's wonderful. Adam: -- switching between apps. Anne: Yup. Adam: And, you know, some people have their character list on their iPhone in a note -- Anne: Yup, yup. Adam: -- or something like that, everything is centralized and that takes -- gets us closer to that one-to-one recording time to finished hour of audio time. Anne: Right, so you can get right to the point in your wav file that you need to be. Because when I go back in and have to do pickups, I have to hunt for where was that? You know, where was that part in my, in my single wav file there that I said this particular thing that I have to do the pickup. So that's, that's phenomenal. I, I think what a wonderful tool. How can BOSSes out there get in touch with you, find out more about your software, maybe -- is that a subscription based model? Adam: Um, so first, uh, they can check us out at www.pozotron.com. That's P-O-Z-O-T-R-O-N.com. Um, or email us at hello@pozotron.com. Uh, we have a number of pricing plans from pay as you go, which has absolutely no subscription. You pay $10 per hour of audio you upload, all charged down to the minute, but it's easier to say $10 per hour than 16.667 cents per minute, but all the way up to, you know, we have some, some of the biggest publishers are putting six, 700 hours of audio a month, and you're getting, and you're paying a much reduced per hour rate based on whatever volume you're doing. So we have very flexible plans from literally you put in 10 minutes of audio a month up to thousands of hours of audio a month. Um, we're very flexible and our subscriptions are only ever month to month. So if you have a big, either increase in volume, you can jump up to a bigger plan. If you have a lull over the Christmas season or holiday season, um, you can go down, 'cause we never want people to be paying for something they're not using because we're a believer in, you know, we'd rather lower our revenues from a customer for a month to make a happier customer because that customer is going to stay with us over the longterm. Anne: Fantastic. And I'm going to push for anybody that does long-form narration, really. I can absolutely see this as being a tool that can really help us, so fantastic. You guys, thank you so very much for joining me today. It has been amazing, and BOSSes out there, make sure to check out Pozotron. I think it's going to really help you do your job better, and thanks again for sharing your time with us today. And I am going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL that allows us to connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Thanks again, Ryan and Adam. It's been a pleasure. Ryan: Thank you. Adam: Thank you very much. This was, this was really fun. Anne: Awesome. Alright, BOSSes. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye. Adam: Bye! Ryan: Bye! >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

About AdamAdam Zimman is a start-up Advisor providing guidance on leadership, platform architecture, product marketing, and GTM strategy. He has over 20 years of experience working in a variety of roles from software engineering to technical sales. He has worked in both enterprise and consumer companies such as VMware, EMC, GitHub, and LaunchDarkly. Adam is driven by a passion for inclusive leadership and solving problems with technology. As an Advisor he works with a number of startups and nonprofits. His perspective on life has been shaped by a background in Physics and Visual Art, an ongoing adventure as a husband and father, and a childhood career as a fire juggler.Links:Twitter: https://twitter.com/azimman TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at VMware. Let's be honest—the past year has been far from easy. Due to, well, everything. It caused us to rush cloud migrations and digital transformation, which of course means long hours refactoring your apps, surprises on your cloud bill, misconfigurations and headache for everyone trying manage disparate and fractured cloud environments. VMware has an answer for this. With VMware multi-cloud solutions, organizations have the choice, speed, and control to migrate and optimizeapplications seamlessly without recoding, take the fastest path to modern infrastructure, and operate consistently across the data center, the edge, and any cloud. I urge to take a look at vmware.com/go/multicloud. You know my opinions on multi cloud by now, but there's a lot of stuff in here that works on any cloud. But don't take it from me thats: VMware.com/go/multicloud and my thanks to them again for sponsoring my ridiculous nonsense.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and periodically I like to talk to people about different aspects of the industry. One that I think is interesting that doesn't get spoken about a lot directly is the idea of leadership. My guest today is Adam Zimman, who's a startup advisor providing guidance on—as mentioned—leadership, platform architecture, Product Marketing, and GTM Strategy—GTM, of course, standing for go-to-market. Who goes to market? That's right, little piggies. Adam, thank you for joining me.Adam: Thank you, Corey. It's a pleasure to be here.Corey: I imagine that you usually don't advise your clients to call their GTM execs, little piggies?Adam: Well, I mean, I guess it depends. You know, if you're actually a bacon manufacturer then that might be actually a reasonable thing to do.Corey: Yeah, that's a level of investment in the product that you usually don't see in most environments, but we take what we can get. So, snark and cynicism aside, what is it you do?Adam: Ultimately, I look for ways in which I can add value. And I've had the privilege in my career to be exposed to a lot of amazing companies, and I look for ways to be able to take the lessons that I've learned, mainly through mistakes and failure, and be able to translate those into success for others.Corey: Most recently, you were at LaunchDarkly for a while, taking a number of different VP roles. While you were there we spoke, back in 2017, briefly while you were in that environment. And in fact, my first guest on the show was one of the folks on your team, Heidi Waterhouse, who has been back at least once since then, and hopefully more than that. But it's been an interesting ride there. Before that you were at places like GitHub—or JIF-ub as I insist on pronouncing it—EMC-slash-VMware—where does one start and the other stop? Hard to say, it's sort of a giant corporate shell game—but you've spent a lot of time in large companies and small ones as well, and now you're effectively hanging out your shingle as a strategic advisor.Adam: This is true. I mean, I think that one of the things that I've found is that doesn't really matter what size of company you're at; you're going to find new and interesting challenges, and you really don't have to look that hard. And so one of the things that I found consistently, and I would say that this was most pointedly phrased for me by Emily Freeman in the context of, “DevOps is this amazing thing of people, process, and technology. And the reality is, is the only one that's complicated is the people.” And oddly enough, small companies, you still got people; big companies, you still got people. So, therein lies some of the challenges.Corey: And people are inherently non-deterministic; you never know what you're going to get by applying the same input, even to the same person just separated out by time. It's a challenge, and the problem that I see across the industry is that very often, you'll have a team of engineers and you'll pick the best and brightest one of those engineers, and, “Congratulations, you manage the team now.” Now, management's inherently orthogonal skill, and what you've simultaneously done is gotten rid of a great engineer and introduced a terrible manager. And that's through no fault of this person's own. But when I started managing teams, I got surprisingly far by just doing the exact opposite of all the stuff that my previous terrible bosses have done.And that works really well right up until it doesn't in a variety of probably fairly easily predictable ways. And the challenge that I'm seeing is that there is no book on how to do these things. If you want to climb an engineering ladder, great; there's a bunch of very qualified people who will tell you how to go from wherever you are technically, to where you want to go, and what you have to demonstrate, and what you have to do. Leadership is squishy, in that sense. At least it always has been to me.Adam: The interesting part that I would challenge you a little bit on is that there are thousands of interesting books on leadership, even smaller subsection on management specifically. I think one of the challenges there is that they're not well circulated within tech as an industry. I think that there are a few that people come back to, like Andy Grove's book on his experience building Intel. There are a lot of books out there that have done a lot for talking about how to manage people and how to think about what are the specific tactical things that you do. It's having one-on-ones, it's having meetings with clear agendas, it's being able to look for ways to set expectations with your organization.I think one of the challenges that I see pretty consistently, is the fact that that effort to be able to go out and find that information or to learn those skills is something that is put on to, as you said, this individual who is coming to management through punishment. They've been extraordinarily successful and now you will punish them by putting them in a role where they can no longer do all the things that they enjoyed, that made them successful. And I think that you see time and time again, where organizations put people in these roles, but they don't do anything to either prepare them for it or do anything to continue that notion of professional development or training for those individuals once they're in those roles.Corey: There are a lot of books out there for any discipline under the sun; some are good, some are terrible, most are somewhere in the middle of the road law of averages winds up working out. I think a key difference, on some level, is I can take to Twitter, or a forum, or something like that, and complain about software; the computer isn't doing the thing I think the computer should be doing. And that's great. I can't very well go and complain about managerial issues while actively having a team and not find myself no longer having managerial issues, if you catch my meaning. It's hard to find communities around this stuff.Adam: I think that you're right. And I think that this is one of those things where not only that, but I think that we also in tech have predominantly taken a very hierarchical structure to the way that we think about management and leadership, to the sense where oftentimes, it is not only discouraged but downright forbidden for an individual contributor to challenge their manager if they want to continue to have gainful employment. And I think that this is a cultural thing that, you know, it's funny; I know that you recently did an episode with John Allspaw and were talking about incident remediation. And I think that one of the things that I've always tried to do as a manager, as a leader, is think about opportunities for being able to do that type of incident response, for people. If you have a person that leaves, whether that is forced attrition, whether that is voluntary attrition, whether that is something that you wanted to happen, something that you didn't want to happen, what are you doing from a perspective of kind of a post-incident assessment to learn from that? And I think that the next level that is, how do you do it so that you actually, in some way, incorporate that for the individual that's actually leaving. Because ideally, they're learning from that experience, as well.Corey: Back when I was a generally terrible employee, I decided at some point, I was tired of dealing with computer problems and wanted to deal with people problems instead. Now, let's be clear, I found a path to do that in a very different direction than I expected at the time, but at the time, it was, “Great. I'm going to go ahead and become a manager of a team.” And I talked to a number of folks about all right, what is the path to go from decent technical engineer—I was a senior SRE type at most of these places—into management. And not just talking to people at the companies I was at, but talking to people in the larger community, and every engineering manager who I respected and talked to about, it always seemed like they got this lucky break at just the right time and that made them a manager for the first time.And once you have a track record of having managed people, then you're in. You can go back and forth between IC and management roles. But, “Well, you've never managed people before, so we're not going to take a chance on you to manage people.” The way that I did it, honestly, was I—a few times—I wound up joining startups where I was effectively the only ops person; we suddenly started scaling and having fun problems, and well, I did negotiate for that director title, so all right, I have teams now. I was more of a team lead than most things, in some cases.But it led to a really pretty interesting evolution in how I approach these things. I find now that the right answer is for me not to manage people at all because what I fundamentally do here at The Duckbill Group is basically become the loud, obnoxious center of attention. And I think that what managers need to do is showcase their people instead. And those two things, at least in my view, are opposed. And it's very challenging to do both of them, let alone well. For me at least, I tend to back away from the management side of things almost entirely and abdicate the role. Which is great. People self-manage, right?Adam: Well, I mean, I think that there are individuals who definitely will take—have the ability to self-organize and self-manage to a degree. I think that the challenge that you run into is, as the organization scales, as the nature of their role tends to change with that scaling organization, it becomes more challenging for them to navigate through those changes. A great example would be, I have had the pleasure and the privilege a number of times in my career of managing extraordinarily senior individuals; these are individuals who, to your point, don't need a whole lot of care and feeding. But what they do sometimes need is they need someone who is able to be in rooms that they're not in, whether that's from a higher-level leadership meeting understanding larger organizational goals, or they need someone that's going to check them; they need someone that they can trust, someone that they can bounce their ideas off of to know is this something that's going to be perceived value or something that's going to actually take me in the wrong direction, or somebody that's, kind of like, paying attention to the work product that they're doing and giving them some coaching, whether that's cheerleading or whether that's connecting of saying, “Hey, there's also this other person you should talk to.” Those types of things are really valuable for those individuals who are, to your point, a little bit more self-sufficient.Corey: On some level, I ran into this trap a lot, and having over drinks conversations with a bunch of people who went on similar paths, it's blindingly obvious that it's a dumb move in hindsight, but an awful lot of us did it, where we're sitting there as engineers with the belief of, “Ah, if I can make my manager—or beyond, several skip-levels up—look incredibly foolish in the middle of a large meeting, they will inherently see the value of what I have to say and will thus elevate me to management.” As it turns out, they elevate you to customer because you're not working there anymore, in many cases. And when I talk to people about this, it usually has that lightbulb coming on moment of as soon as you hear it, of course, it is blindingly obvious that you aren't going to sarcastically obnoxious your way into being management. Instead, the path there—in hindsight, also blindly obvious—is act as if: act managerial; help to effectively carry on your manager's message to the rest of the team, and when you have reservations or whatnot, talk to them in private rather than calling them out. And it's the obvious stuff of who gets promoted to management? Well, the people that look managerial. And that is what that looks like, in many respects.Adam: And this is one of the reasons why, when I talk about management I like to separate the notion of management from leadership. Because I think that anyone can be a leader. You don't actually have to be the administrative manager of an individual to be a leader to them.Corey: I saw a great poster once when I was younger. “Leaders are like eagles. We don't have either of them here.”Adam: [sigh]. Yeah, yeah. Ugh. I do miss good motivational posters.Corey: Oh, yeah.Adam: You know, I think that there's some truth to it. I think that finding people who are genuinely invested in being able to enable the success of others—which is how I define leadership—is challenging. I think that, especially in rather capitalistic-type industry like we're in, there is a lot of measurement of people's success by their own personal achievements and by their ability to beat their own drum. And I think that it's something that is, frankly, a failing of our industry, where we don't do a better job of encouraging folks, and rewarding folks that actually look out for others and enable the success of others. Because I think that's something that is—ultimately you think about how you build strong teams, and it's not about getting a bunch of individuals who can do amazing things individually. It's about getting individuals who are capable of working together and being able to do more than they would be able to if they were simply working individually.Corey: Do you ever find that people are chasing management in many respects because they think that it's something very different than what it is, and then find themselves in situations where well, I'm the dog that caught the car that I was chasing and only now do I realize that I have no idea how to drive the thing?Adam: Oh, absolutely. So, this is something that has been interesting me a lot recently, in the sense that I think we as an industry also do a very poor job of measuring management, measuring leadership. We give a lot of power to managers through performance reviews to measure their individual contributors, but there are very few companies who actually efficiently do things like 360 reviews, which has always confused me because I think that implies that you're getting feedback from all around you, as opposed to what you really want is you want feedback pointed back at you, which would be 180. But maybe that's just—Corey: Let's be clear, that was also pioneered by the German [Wehrmacht 00:13:48] in World War II, which is yeah, basically how some people I've worked with do tend to manage.Adam: Yeah. I think that if we can think about how do we measure the success of a manager, is it simply a function of the output of their team, or are there other efficiency metrics that you should be looking at? Very obvious one is how efficient is a manager from a perspective of the utilization of their resources? And when I think about that, I think about are they actually able to effectively hire? Are they able to effectively retain the people that they hire?What does it look like for the people on their organization from a promotion perspective in terms of skill growth? Do they become more valuable over time? Those are ways in which we can think about how we measure the manager, potentially, directly. And then there's indirect things like what's the qualitative aspect of those individuals that work for them? Are they people who are enjoying the work that they're doing?Are they motivated to continue to work towards the company's vision and mission, to be able to actually make their manager look good, but also make the company successful?Corey: A challenge, too, because I've seen this myself is, all right, you're not elevated to manager. Congratulations. It's not really a promotion. It's a lateral move. However, a lot of companies don't treat it that way.They don't compensate it that way, et cetera. And oh, okay, management, it turns out is not for me. There's no real good way to say, “I'm going back to being an IC,” especially at the same company, without it being perceived by many—rightly or wrongly—as a demotion or a failure.Adam: This question of, like, motivation to people, why do they want to go into management? I think that oftentimes this is misplaced. A lot of times the number one motivation that I've heard has nothing to do with wanting to actually help people or solve people problems, as you said earlier; it has to do with I want a bigger paycheck, I want more seniority, I want more responsibility, and therefore the only path available to me is management. In fact, many career ladders at organizations require an individual contributor to go to a management position before they can become a principal or a staff-level engineer, which is nonsense. First of all, why would you torture the individual to do something that is so completely and utterly outside of where their interests are? Secondly, why would you just decimate your lower-level individual contributors, your newer individual contributors by having someone who is completely non-inclined towards management be responsible for them? Oh.Corey: Oh, yeah. Used to be your peer; now they manage you, and great. I think people underestimate exactly how broad the blast radius of a manager is.Adam: Yeah. Talk to anyone, and they'll be more than happy to tell you the worst manager that they've ever had. At the same time, they'll also probably be able to tell you the best manager they've ever had.Corey: Oh, yeah. I called both of those out—only one the one of those by name, by the way—in conference talks that I've had because it's—yeah, you can probably guess which one I would call out and which one I would not name publicly—yeah—Adam: It depends on the conference, I guess. But yeah.Corey: Oh, yeah, absolutely. If it was you-know-what-your-problem-is con, yeah, it went super well.Adam: [laugh].Corey: It was fun. And management, especially in the current era is getting interesting, as we're seeing the heating up of the market in a bunch of different ways. And I understand, to be clear, that Twitter is not a perfect microcosm of the industry, but there's a recurring theme that I'm seeing among a number of engineering types that seemed to get—and again, I don't want to get letters for this, so if I misstate it, audience, please go ahead and be kind—but there seems to be a certain thread running through engineering communities that the purpose of a company is to provide a utopian work environment for its staff. Now, as someone who runs a company myself, yeah, I absolutely want to provide the kind of working environment I wish I'd had in a bunch of different environments. And that's not going to work for everyone, but that's okay.But fundamentally we're here to make money, and ideally, enough monies that we can keep the lights on. And that does mean that, however, we want to treat our staff that has to be subordinate to can we continue as a going concern? So yeah, it turns out, we can't—sustainably—outbid Netflix on every hire that we make and we aren't able to wind up having three catered meals a day as a full remote company delivered to everyone's house. Now, I'd like to, in a world where money flows like water, but it doesn't. For better or worse, there are constraints, and constraints shape us.But there's a thread that I'm starting to see of… I hesitate to call it entitlement, but it trends slightly toward the direction of folks who are in tech, and in some ways seem very far removed from business realities—now, let's be clear in the FAANG world, yeah, it's pretty attenuated. And in startup land where well, we're the VC backed, so we're losing money by the billion but we're making it up in volume. Great. That is not necessarily what I'm talking about here. I'm seeing a thread where, oh, engineers are clearly the smartest people in any company, which means that every other department should defer to them. I disagree with that position.Adam: I want to follow that thread a little bit with regards to engineers. So, I've worked as a software developer—Corey: My condolences.Adam: Yeah. I've worked as a technical salesperson. I've had the opportunity to work in pretty much every department with the exceptions of HR and finance. So, that has been part of my career of jack of all trades, master of none, but it has given me some interesting insights in terms of the value that different organizations, different individuals, bring to a company. And I think that—one of the things that I will say is that for the longest time, in large organizations, especially non-tech industry organizations, the engineer or the developer was at the same expectations or the role as someone in the janitorial staff.It was basically, “You're part of the plumbing. You just do the things so that the tech just works, and we're going to have the other business folks that are more responsible for actually making decisions that are going to make our business money.” The quintessential example is someone like Kraft Foods or someone like John Deere, right, where you're building tractors; for the longest time, the guy who ran the website wasn't going to be the guy who was going to make or break John Deere's quarterly earnings. Now, you've got tractors that literally are more computers than they are mechanical devices and so you suddenly have this change in dynamic with regards to the importance of that developer. But I think that something that's interesting, also, is that those other people who worked at the company didn't go away.They're still there; they're still important. In fact, they're still oftentimes making the buying decisions on behalf of the developers. The developers aren't the ones that are making those choices. And so you need to figure out, how do you actually make the technology choices and the technology outcomes accessible to individuals that are in roles that were, historically, had nothing to do with tech.This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: I've always been a big believer in the idea that if you're going to transition into a new field, be it into tech, out of tech, et cetera, great. In almost every case, you should find ways to do that laterally. I think that this idea that, oh, you're going to go ahead and just start over with an entry-level job after you've been in a field for five years—no. Find the position that's halfway between where you are and where you think you want to go next and start getting exposure there. In time, it's those niches that add value that distinguish you from other folks.It turns out that they don't generally want to hire someone in almost any role that comes from Central Casting, where it's alright, give me a standard MBA with the following pedigree and drop them in as my new executive, whatever. No. They want to see things like industry experience; they want to see things that distinguish folks, and having experience in industries that are not traditionally, purely what this role is, is super helpful in a lot of different ways. What I do pretty clearly blends finance and tech; that goes reasonably well. Increasingly it starts to blend media, which is something I don't pretend to understand. But here we are, he said into the microphone.Adam: Yeah. Well, as long as you're not starting the next Fox News, I'm fine with that.Corey: No, no. Generally not.Adam: Okay, fair enough. But I think that you're right. This is one of the things where, trailing back, we've throughout this conversation to the notion of leadership, this is something that I found extraordinarily rewarding and empowering that I've done with individuals that I've brought into new organizations, either through initial conversations during an interview process, or during, as part of their onboarding, is I sit down, and I actually talk to them about what are their plans? What are their expectations? What are their goals, not only for the next 30, 60, 90 days in this role that we're talking about but what are they thinking about from a perspective of what do they want to do in the next year? In the next three years? Five years? Ten years? What are those checkpoints of what do you want to do in this role? What do you want to do at this company? What do you want to do with your career? Like, where do you see it headed?And it doesn't mean that you're writing this in stone, or that I'm going to hold you to it, but I think that one of those things that's really empowering for a leader is to be able to help those individuals find those connective threads that tie one position to the next and help them get there. If they're somebody who is saying, “Hey, look, I'm currently a developer, but I really wish that I could give more talks.” Okay, well, that's great for me to know. Let's put you on some projects that maybe actually would result in great content for a talk that you could give at a conference. And then we'll figure out, how do we work with the marketing department to be able to help you bring that to fruition?There's a lot of ways to be able to leverage this experience that you have as a leader, as a manager, to an individual who's coming up in their career and saying, “Hey, look. This is how some more ancillary things are connected.” And being able to bring those back to them.Corey: I really wish, on some level, that there was a more defined path toward a lot of these things, where the stuff is explained to folks. So often, I had terrible managers that, in hindsight, weren't that terrible. Because I didn't understand where the role started and stopped, I tended to view the role of the manager is there to protect the team. The end. And be our advocate in the organization, and get us the thing that we want, and what do we want? Comfy chairs.And it turns out that isn't ever how it really works. If I had to define management, it would basically be, balancing competing priorities more than it is almost anything else. And counterintuitively, the higher you rise in an organization, the more responsibility you have, and the less you can actually directly do. Everything you do drives influence. And that's it. That's how it distills down.Adam: You talk about the engineer that wants to move into management role because that's how they see their career progressing. This is a close corollary to the engineer that wants to move into a product management role because they want to have greater oversight into the decisions that are being made about what's getting built. And what you come to realize, for any engineer who successfully made that transition, is it's really complicated and difficult to be able to have that mental switch take place between this is how I'm going to build it versus this is the priority of what needs to get built next. And all too often you see engineers that land in product management roles that are dictating how something should be built, and suddenly the engineers are just like, “No, I have no respect for you. Because that's not your job.”And likewise, in a management role, oftentimes people view that as an opportunity for them to make all the choices, make all the decisions, and suddenly lose sight of the fact that they used to be on the other side of that outcome themselves, and were disappointed when they weren't included in some way, shape or form, or their priorities weren't taken into consideration.Corey: As you look at your own career, what is the worst job experience you've ever had? Or the worst job you've ever had? Or the worst boss you've ever had? That's always a good one to do.Adam: [laugh].Corey: Pick a superlative and not the good kind. Hit me.Adam: Yeah, no, I mean, look, I think that probably the worst… experience that I ever had with a manager, with a boss, was actually when I was first a software developer. And my manager would occasionally just come up behind me and just stand and watch me code. And we're not talking about peer programming, where it was just like, we're working together. No, it was, literally would come up, stand behind me on my shoulder, and just stand there. Not saying anything; just watching me write Java code. And that was probably the most disconcerting experience that I've ever had in a job ever. I lasted about six months and then I was just like, “I need to move on to something else.”Corey: It turns out one of my failure modes was that I was great for the first three months in new ops roles because things were invariably a fire, and—Adam: [laugh].Corey: —I know how to solve those things. And then it becomes a maintenance role, and I'm bad at that. For longest time, I thought I was just a crap employee. And I am, but for different reasons. Instead, though, for me, it turned into a, I need to find the thing that I'm good at and embrace that. And I have to say, it was not being, basically, a cloud comedian on Twitter where my primary means of communication is shitposting. But you know, here we are, and this is how we've gotten there.Adam: I mean, know your strengths, man. Know your strengths.Corey: Yeah, lean into it. I mean, you went to college in Maine; you know what it's like there. It's dark and cold nine months out of the year, so all we do is sit inside and develop personality disorders. And well, here we are.Adam: Well, hey, I mean, I took a break from tech after that first job in software development and I actually went back and worked for a guy that I met while I was in school, and I worked for him, he was a general contractor. So, I have an appreciation for Maine winters in a way that I never gained as a privileged college student, when I was actually digging snow out of ditches to be able to pour concrete at six in the morning and then later in the day, I got to go up and use 80-pound weight shingles to reshingle the roof in 20-degree weather. So, it was an eye-opening experience. But I'll tell you, I learned pretty much everything that I know about how to build infrastructure from that eight months that I spent doing everything from framing, ditch-digging, to electrical, and plumbing, and roofing.Corey: Kind of fun how often is that we wind up trying other things. And this is part of it, too. As much fun as it is to complain about various jobs and whatnot that we have, let's be very clear here for a minute that I'm not dealing with hot tar, being paid seven bucks an hour. There are advantages to the [unintelligible 00:28:08] jobs I have.Adam: I mean, that was a number of years ago, but I still got ten bucks an hour.Corey: My first job at the University of Maine call center working in tech, in those days, I think I was being paid something like $5.35 an hour. To answer phones, which again, not that hard of a job. I made a lot more money a couple years later when I moved to construction. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend any of those things for me these days, but it was instructive.Adam: But at the same time, I would argue that you also have benefited from those experiences in the way that you approach the things that you do now. And I think that's one of the things that I've tried to bring forward in my career is look for those opportunities to make those connections, and understand the value of those experiences, and be able to help to enable other people because I've had those experiences.Corey: To me at least, the answer is to turn whatever you've done or whatever happened to you into some form of empathy. The idea of well, I had to struggle coming up, so you should, too. Let's instead focus on making it better for people who follow us. Send the elevator back down, as it were.Adam: I mean, I think that's great advice, and I think that it's something that's done far too infrequently. One of the things that I've noticed is that that aspect, unless somebody has actually been through the experience where somebody has done that for them, it is oftentimes something that is a lot harder for people to see. This goes to your earlier statement around the expectations that maybe are changing, and they're not such great ways with regards to what people are expecting from companies, what people are expecting from managers. I think that there is a distinct lack of expectation setting that takes place at companies in terms of what is the role of the company, what is the role of an employee, and how can those two come together to still have a positive interaction, but aren't overstepping on either side? Because that's really where you get into problems. That's where all of a sudden you have these companies that are looking to fill the role of, I will take care of all aspects of your life, when in reality that's not a very healthy relationship for an individual to have with a company.Corey: So, I want to thank you for coming and speak to me. What are you up to these days, and where can people find you? And why should people find you?Adam: Well, I don't know that anybody should find me.Corey: “I hope this email finds you never. I hope you're free.”Adam: Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, I would love to find folks that I can add value to and help out. It's easy enough to find me on Twitter. It's just @-A-Z-I-M-M-A-N—azimman. And they're welcome to reach out to me there. My DMs are open—much to my displeasure sometimes—but happy to help people who are looking for help. I'm particularly interested in spending my time with those individuals who maybe are coming from underrepresented backgrounds in tech and looking for ways to be able to either get into tech or to move up within leadership roles in tech.But I'm spending a lot of my time doing a lot of coaching, doing a lot of advising for small startups, and then also just as a small side project have been working pretty extensively with James Governor and a woman by the name of Kim Harrison on this little thing called Progressive Delivery, which is, as far as we're concerned, it is the next iteration of the software development lifecycle that we've written about and talked about pretty extensively. James and Kim and I are working on a book together to be able to capture all those ideas and bring them and coalesce them for people, to make more consumable. But ultimately, we're trying to say, “Hey, look. The way that we've done things leading up till now, moving from waterfall to agile to continuous delivery into what's next?” And look at some of the market conditions that have changed. A lot of stuff that you talk about. I think that you would be the first to point out how things have changed since the launch of AWS.Corey: Oh, yes. It's more confusing now.Adam: Oh, way more confusing. And the ways in which people consume cloud-based services has radically changed. And so I think that the way that we are building software and the way that we're consuming software is something that we need to put some serious thought into. And the players that are—you know, as I spoke about earlier on this talk with you—are different. It's no longer just your developers that care about your AWS choices or care about the cloud service choices that you're making.You've got other individuals, whether it's the finance side you focus on or thinking about it from the perspective of the marketing team, or the HR team that's thinking about which cloud service HRIS are they going to use. There's a lot of people that need to be party to those choices that you're making and how you build out your company stack, as it were. And the Progressive Delivery model looks to take into consideration that changing and evolving group of people.Corey: And we will, of course, have links to that in the [show notes 00:32:46]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Adam: Corey, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.Corey: Adam Zimman, startup advisor, and oh, so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a scathing comment telling me why you as an engineer are best suited to be the manager of everything.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Background is in hotel operations. Started in western Canada. Knowing Hospitality came about after Adam was furloughed and saw that there was a need for independent hotel owners that didn't have the capability, bandwidth or desire or to run their own hotels anymore. It's helpful to change the view of restaurants and hotels from profit centers to looking at it as more of an amenity. Is this something that will drive room revenue? Will it build room occupancy? What can you build as a story around the restaurant in your hotel? How do you capture the people that live 5 or 10 blocks around you, especially in an urban community? Lifestyle hotel brands - Moxy, Aloft, Even Where can hotels find incremental revenue? Food tribes - if you find a restaurant that's doing this well and meets your needs, you'll go back time after time. In-room dining - offer things that enhance their experience Quotes “The thing that hotel restaurants have working against them primarily is you've got a perception issue a lot of the time”  -Adam “It's a lot easier to tell a story through design rather than trying to have a generic room that is applicable to the widest audience” -Adam “Ideation becomes a lot more natural and innovation becomes more comfortable when there's a very clear brand strategy that people within the organization and on the teams fully understand and adopt” - Joseph “This is where leaders get into a lot of trouble is they think of ideas as right or wrong or good or bad…. The question becomes what lens are you using to evaluate whether that merit fits the concepts that you're building?”  -Joseph “People need to do a better job of allowing or empowering patrons to quickly position and categorize the restaurant in their world” - Joseph “You can't complain about falling sales in your restaurant and do nothing to try to elevate the experience and make it a place that people actually want to go” -Adam “You can't just sell all the time, you've gotta create value for people” -Adam “Hotels have gotten really good at ticking boxes and not good enough at making some statements” -Joseph

Oxide and Friends Twitter Space: August 16th, 2021The Showstopper ShowWe've been holding a Twitter Space weekly on Mondays at 5p for about an hour. Even though it's not (yet?) a feature of Twitter Spaces, we have been recording them all; here is the recording for our Twitter Space for August 16th, 2021.In addition to Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal, speakers on August 16th included special guests G. Pascal Zachary (see gpascalzachary.com), and Jessamyn West (see jessamyn.medium.com), as well as Dan Cross, Tom Lyon, Josh Clulow, and others. (Did we miss your name and/or get it wrong? Drop a PR!)Some of the topics we hit on, in the order that we hit them: G. Pascal Zachary's “Showstopper! The Breakneck Race to Create Windows NT and the Next Generation at Microsoft” book Tracy Kidder's “The Soul of a New Machine” book [@0:46](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=46) “The endless debate of NT vs Unix.” Bryan: My whole career was kind of defined by going where Windows wasn't. I don't know what I was expecting, but what I found was a real time capsule from software development in the 90's. [@2:46](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=166) Jessamyn: There was some familial impact (from developing DG Eclipse) that wasn't mentioned in the book. “O, Engineers!” retrospective from wired [@6:30](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=390) What was Kidder's process? “He lived in my house!” [@8:32](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=512) Zachary interviewed family members extensively. > People couldn't leave, they were staying at the office all the time. [@14:23](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=863) I do feel this is a time capsule. A time before two mega-trends hit: the Internet and open source. [@17:33](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1053) Microsoft was kind of a joke software company in the early 90's. > Dave Cutler was a force of nature. [@19:59](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1199) No one understood why someone was good at coding. It was a mystery to everyone, why there was such a wide stratification of coders. > There were projects that never saw the light of day.  Ashton-Tate, dBase > There was a sense from Cutler and Perazzoli, that leadership of the team, > that these guys at Microsoft really didn't get how serious the process > of building this battleship was. I think the level of anguish did surprise me. [@23:59](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1439) In “Soul of the New Machine,” the machine was the star, and people served it. East Coast vs West Coast attitudes. > On the West Coast, the personal computer were supposed to help you > actualize your counter-cultural values.  Ken Olsen of DEC > Computing is equivalent with IBM. There was no software industry > so long as IBM gave all the software away for free. [@26:09](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1569) Crashes. > Wozniak dreamed of owning > his own PDP > computer, which cost as much as a house. So he was aware of the robustness > of the minicomputer, and by contrast, the puny power of a personal computer.  Thirtysomething > Dave Cutler was not cuddly. He was menacing, he could lose his temper. > And I tried not to get to close to him physically for that reason. > There were two looming father figures in Cutler and Gates. > And I think it created a lot of anxiety. [@29:52](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1792) The stakes for NT at Microsoft were high.  Fred Brooks' “The Mythical Man-Month” book > It was a watershed moment in the history of computing. > It was more like the last battleship, rather than the next frontier. Bryan: I didn't realize this, that Gates was arguing against memory protection with Cutler. From our perspective, shipping an operating system without memory protection, in an era when microprocessors supported it, is malpractice. [@33:14](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1994) Cutler's vendetta against Unix. > Conflict was at the heart of innovation at Microsoft at that time.  Mitch Kapor of Lotus. > These early personal computer innovators were dismissed and sometimes > humiliated by mainstream big iron people of the 60's and 70's. Bill Gates' “The Road Ahead” book doesn't mention the internet. Zachary's “Endless Frontier: Vannevar Bush, Engineer of the American Century” book > Computers on the West Coast were seen as extensions of your creativity, > and a tool for liberation. And for a long time that dominated the horizons. In 2005 Gates and Ballmer don't want to do cloud computing. “Who's gonna want to put their stuff in the cloud?” We've found that computing is a collective experience. [@38:28](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=2308) Email and personal messaging  Sun Ray thin client computer Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson's “The UNIX time-sharing system” paper > Unix was an experiment in collaboration. RSX-11 for the PDP-11. And VMS for the VAX. > The attitude of looking down on Unix (as undesigned, academic) is > carried forward by Microsofties today. Tom: You can forgive Cutler's misgivings, because Unix pretty much stole the thunder out of VMS. [@42:24](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=2544) Interviews for the book. Family members perspective on workplace behavior.  Betty Shanahan, Society of Women Engineers. Brief Q&A EAGLE (Eclipse Appreciation and Gratitude for Lonely Evenings) award > Betty's husband got an award for having to do his own laundry… Jessamyn's “Women in Early Tech” blog entry about Shanahan [@48:10](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=2890) Where did these engineers end up? They are broadly no longer engineers. This project burned people out.  Short 1993 article by Zachary: “After two years in ship mode… a lot of people are angry, tired, and burned out.” Johanne Caron, linkedin Pascal: Kidder was like a fly on the wall. I was doing reconstruction as well as observation. I talked to family members to get the whole picture. [@53:20](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=3200) Cutler got to run his own show. > Ken Olsen was like the LBJ > of the computer industry: he's waist deep in the big money.  Corporate culture. Hotshot coders. Renegades, rebels, hero programmers. > It's the majesty and mystery of code writing, that there's such a wide > range of performance. Pascal: I wasn't invited to the 25 year anniversary of the NT team.. [@1:01:47](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=3707) Journalists and companies. > Soul of a New Machine was very flattering to the company.  Jobs backdated stock options, in violation of clear federal law. Gates repeatedly stole things. > The hobbyists were a small market, Microsoft needed to sell to corporations. Zachary's “Software, the Invisible Technology” 2016 essay > Where we used to relate to programs, we now relate to services. I think there needs to be a greater literature of software: the making of it, its purpose, its vulnerabilities, its values.Tom: It's because us practitioners are too embarrased about it all.. [@1:05:49](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=3949) Josh compares and contrasts. > Coders don't have to test their own stuff. The second stringers do that.  Pascal: I would encourage people to write more about software and how it's created. Zachary's “Code Rush” film ~56mins about Netscape. [@1:08:58](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4138) The rise of open source. Software as immutable artifact: once it's written, it's written. > Amazon, Google, Netflix are not possible without open source. [@1:10:50](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4250) Jessamyn on helping people use tech. Accessibility > I'm a service oriented person. I work with > people who are struggling with technology. [@1:15:24](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4524) Agency of users. > Bryan: Without memory protection, you would lose hours of work. > One bad application could cause the computer to reboot.  Open source tools, and user accessible scripting/modding. Gary Larson's “The Far Side” comic “Blah blah blah Ginger” Tweet series about Internet Explorer's 25 year anniversary [@1:22:01](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4921) Pascal's parting thoughts. > The transformation of software from artifact into service, > is both fabulous and also scary. It changes all the time. > When NT was done, it was a fixed unchanging thing.  Bryan: The darker side to services is people need to attend to it whenever it breaks. Adam: It's the death march with no end. > Pascal: Thanks everyone, I'd love to hear from you individually. > I'm interested in why people continue to turn to Showstopper > and find some value in it. Pascal: I encourage you to think about the literary aspects of software. I think it's valuable for society and civilization, for our culture, because there really is an artistic, artisanal side to software. Thanks again for including me. If we got something wrong or missed something, please file a PR! Our next Twitter space will likely be on Monday at 5p Pacific Time; stay tuned to our Twitter feeds for details. We'd love to have you join us, as we always love to hear from new speakers!

Parshat Shelach - Geoffrey Stern with Rabbi Adam Mintz, visit with Rav Abraham Isaac Kook, Rabbi Yitz Greenberg and listen to a live recording or Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach.  We explore what the story of the Biblical Scouts teaches us about whining, Jewish Power, Jewish Nationalism, Zionism, Jewish Renewal, love and respect for authority? So gird your loins and take a deep breath as we Get Guts. Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/327812 Transcript: Geoffrey Welcome, everybody, to Madlik, our weekly disruptive Torah, four o'clock Eastern Time on clubhouse and later published as a podcast. If you do listen to this as a podcast and you want to like us or give us some stars, that would be well appreciated. Today, we are going to discuss, the following narrative.  Picture the Jewish people in the desert coming out of Egypt. They're getting close to the border with the promised land, literally the land that was promised to them. And they sent out 12 either spies or scouts to scout the land. And there's one scout from each tribe and they're instructed to go to the country (Numbers, Chapter 13 and 14) to determine whether it's strong or weak, few or many.  Are the people that dwell in there, good or bad are the towns they live in open or fortified. Is the soil rich or poor? Is it wooded or not? Really a total fact-finding mission.  And the story recounts how they get there. And it's harvest festival and they harvest some grapes that have become almost iconic in terms of how large they were. And then they lodge their report "and ten of them say, we came to the land you sent to us. It does indeed flow with milk and honey. And this is its food." And they showed them the grapes. However, and here's the however, the people who inhabit the country are powerful and the cities are fortified and very large. Moreover, we saw anakites (giants) and they go on as they're talking. The other two was Joshua and a guy named Caleb, and he hushed the people before Moses and he said, let's just go up. We shall gain possession of it. So Joshua and Caleb were enthusiastic about going ahead to the Promised Land. But they continued speaking and they said we cannot attack that people for it is stronger than we. It is one that devours its settlers, Eretz ochelwet yoshveha... a land that literally eats its inhabitants and then they go back and they say the final punch line and it says, and we looked like grasshoppers to ourselves and so we must have looked to them. And ultimately the story ends with obviously God being extremely upset. Here is a people that he took the trouble of redeeming from slavery to freedom, and it ultimately is mired in a slavery; exile mentality. And can't make the switch. And they want to go back to Egypt. They would rather be taken care of and be slaves. And this story ends with God saying, let me get rid of them all, right, now and Moses, I will take you and Joshua and Caleb and the believers into the land. And Moses convinces him not to do that and God forgives them. And the language that he uses to forgive them is the penultimate forgiveness verses of the Torah that we use on Yom Kippur. And ultimately, that whole generation is to die out and a new generation is to come into the land. So I'm going to stop right here and ask you, Rabbi Adam and anyone else who wants to participate, what is the takeaway from this story at even the most superficial level? Adam There is so much. Thank you, Geoffrey, for the for the introduction and for just kind of the background of the story, You know, at least one piece of the take away is that you need to trust. You need to trust in God and you need to trust in ourselves that the mistake that the people, the Jews made the desert was you know, there were a lot of different ways to understand the report of the spies, but they chose the way that it was the most scary, the most intimidating. They didn't trust in themselves. They didn't trust in God. And that's what got them in trouble. So I think the first lesson is a lesson about trust. Geoffrey  And faith and confidence Adam Trust and faith I'm putting together correct That's my first take away Geoffrey But of course, to move you forward, there is that kind of telling comment where they said they didn't say we'd looked like grasshoppers to them. They said we looked like grasshoppers to ourselves, and we must have looked like grasshoppers to them, too. What is that add? Adam That means that if you're insecure, then, you know, that's your downfall. If you think that your grasshoppers, then other people can pick that up in a minute. And they saw themselves as being weak. And the minute they saw themselves as being weak, they were weak and they'll be able to take advantage of them. Geoffrey So it's really as much about faith in God as it is about faith in oneself.  Self-esteem. Adam Right. And I'm a big believer that this story is not only about faith in God, it's about faith in oneself. Geoffrey So to raise the bar a little bit, the midrash seems to have the consensus that this took place on a very perspicuous day in the Jewish calendar. It took place on Tisha B'Av and it's recounted Tisha B'av, as you probably all know, is the day the greatest calamity in the history of the Jewish people occurred.  When the temple was destroyed.  According to tradition, both temples were destroyed on the same day. And the midrash and the Mishnah gives a long list of other calamities that either foreshadowed or followed afterwards. But this took place on Tisha B'aV.  And the Midrash says that when the people cried after hearing the report from the scouts, the Midrash says it was a Bechi Shel Chinam... It was an unjustified crying... a whining if you will. And because they cried, the Jewish people in the desert cried for no good reason. They would be destined to cry for good reason for the rest of the generations. And those of you who know Jewish tradition about Tisha B'av, cannot fail to hear in the bechi Shel Chinam...  this crying for no reason, an echo of the traditional reason that the temple was destroyed. And that was because of sinat chinam.... of hatred that was unjustified .... person to person. So what do you make of this counterpoint between these two various reasons for the beginning of all the calamities of the Jewish people beginning at that moment and both using this unjustified emotion? Adam  Let's take that midrash, that Midrash that you quote, Geoffrey, that you cried for no reason. Great phrase... you whine because you whine, I'm going to give you a reason to really cry. What does that mean? What that means is that we need to take a certain amount of responsibility. And if we're going to whine, God is going to give us a reason to whine. We can't whine, we need to be strong, and we need to have courage. We need to have faith in ourselves and in God. And if we can't do that, then God is going to punish us. He's going to give us a reason to cry. I think that's such a strong idea. Geoffrey And then all that is true. But I want to set it up as a counterpoint to "sinat Chinam". to blaming the destruction of the temple on the sins of the Jews. And what I'd love to do is to paint a picture that was inspired to me by Rav Abraham Yitzhak Kook, the first chief rabbi of the State of Israel, who actually took this midrash of baseless crying. And remember, this is an ultra-orthodox rabbi who breaks with the rest of the ultra-orthodox who believe that it is not up to man, it is not up to us to fabricate of faith and to take our land and to take the initiative. And he says, no, absolutely not that it is it is ours and it is our responsibility not to be small, but to be great. And this baseless whining, if you will, was the core of not only the narrative that we're reading about this Shabbat in this parsha, but is the core of the narrative of exile, of diminution, of oppression of the Jewish people through the ages. And I think if you add on to that context, part of that context is that the Jewish tradition for 2000 years of exile said that the Jewish people were exiled because they did something wrong. And this was something that was begun by the Jews, themselves in the prophets, Jeremiah and others, but clearly something that was literally embraced by the non-Jews who said if you are stateless, you must be deserving of this punishment. And so, in a sense, this baseless whining, this baseless diminution of yourself, I think is a counterpoint. And I don't want to focus less on the sin of hatred one against another and more on the fact of it's a sin that's keeping us away and that somehow or other we have to do something, maybe go to synagogue and pray, as opposed to taking our future into our hands and doing what Joshua and Caleb said, which is let's get up and go and take this land. Do you see that counterpoint Rabbi? Adam [That's a very interesting counterpoint. And I think that that's really the lesson of the whole scary counterpoint is the lesson. Right? Geoffrey I think so. I think so. It's one also of sadness and joy and so Rav Kook, when he describes this, he describes it in the context of we should be rejoicing on Tisha B'av, because one day Tisha B'av is going to be the happiest day. And that day will happen when we take our fate into our own hands. Adam I want to know what that means, taking fate into our own hands. What does that mean to you? Geoffrey So I'd like to move forward to answer that question to another theologian who's actually still alive, named Yitz Greenberg. And Yitz Greenberg talks about the Third Era of Judaism. And he actually describes that before the Holocaust, we lived in a world where we were waiting for divine redemption, and we were trying to make ourselves purer so that we would deserve divine redemption. And he says after the Holocaust, many people would want to talk about the "hester Panim", the fact that God's divine presence was hidden. And he says that's the wrong syntax. He talks about after the Holocaust we now have to talk about "was man missing" and that man now has to take into his or her own hands their future. That's his takeaway from the absence of God, which is the positive flip side of that, which is the ultimate responsibility for the presence of man. Adam What do you make of that? Let me turn it back to you, Geoffrey. What do you think about Yitz Greenberg's comment? Geoffrey Well, I agree with him very much. And when I kind of felt it in my gut because I truly believe that the renaissance of the Jewish people and the revival of the state of Israel is not simply like the meraglim, the scouts, a story, an episode. I think it is the essence of the culmination of Jewish history. And so I try to make sense of it in terms of the arc of Jewish history. And actually, Greenberg talks in terms of what happened after the Holocaust, in terms of the UN and human rights and national movements and all that. He makes the context even larger. But it really does speak to me and it speaks to me in a sense that is core to who I am as a proud Jew. So it really does resonate. Adam It's a great I think it's a fantastic argument by Itz Greenberg. And maybe what makes it the most powerful is it is kind of surprising you wouldn't have expected it. Geoffrey In terms of who Yitz Greenberg is as an Orthodox Jew, Adam correct, Geoffrey I mean, I think in a sense what we're talking about is not something that we're kind of creating out of nothing. The truth is that Ralph Kook and especially but also Yitz Greenberg coming out of an ultra-orthodox background, saw it. They saw the real tension between the Judaism of the galut... of the exile and a new Judaism born after the ashes, so to speak, and the revival of the Jewish nationalist dream. It lived itself out, in other words. And I also came from a very ultra-orthodox background. And these are things that you study, and you learn.  They're very much alive. This this sense of you talk about trust. It's a different type of trust and faith. It's a faith that God will take care of us. God will provide the answer. And it's ultimately one that I think I really do. I feel like I have to reject. And it's not almost a nostalgic old faith as opposed to a new one.  it's a new faith that has an emphasis and an imperative to it. Adam Yeah. That that idea of a new thing I think is very, very powerful. And that's really what Yitz Greenberg is talking about, is that we have to create for ourselves a new faith and that new faith is a faith that requires a tremendous amount of strength and courage. Can you imagine creating a new a new faith? Well, something that's so counter to everything that we were bought up with in our very orthodox backgrounds, isn't it? Geoffrey Well, I mean, you know, we listen to whether it's the song of the parting of the sea where we say lo b'bekochi, that it is not with our power, not with our might, that we will survive, but only through God. And Greenberg has an amazing quote that is a variation on something I believe Santayana said, and its "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But absolute powerlessness corrupts the most". And I think what he was saying here is the powerlessness .... the lack of willingness to accept one's own fate, to accept power, to be a victim, to be a martyr, to play that role is really antithetical to the world and the renewal of Judaism and the state of Israel that we see. And I think it comes up in our discussions today, and I'm not preaching to anyone. I'm preaching to myself here. You know, as we see the discussion about Israel, especially in the last month, rive up and we feel, do we have to stand up for it or do we have to? What is the right balance between empathizing with the poor people in Gaza and the Palestinians and their national dream and ours? And I think that part of what this message told me this week as I studied it and as I read it, is you can care for other people, but you first have to care for yourself. You have to be in touch and understand your national dream before you can embrace someone else's national dream. You have to respect yourself. You can't be a grasshopper or a cockroach. That was the message I took away. And literally I was on the fence in terms of...  Let this pass and do we really need to to stick up for ourselves and and make a scene and the take away from this parsha is that, you know, if not us, who then? Adam Do you think that we all have to share the same dream? Geoffrey No, no, absolutely not, and I think, if I hear you correctly, you know, would we ever want to totally lose the message of a Jeremiah who says if bad things happen to you, you need to be introspective and you need to look to see what you can do better with your life, both morally, ethically and spiritually? I hope we never lose that. But certainly when it goes to the extreme, when  bad things happen to good people, it must be good people's fault. And we have to check on Mezuzahs. I think it is is a sickness. And I do believe we have to be comfortable in saying, damn it, we deserve a full life, too, and we deserve to live out our national and lifelong [national aspiration]. I was at a wedding earlier this week and I couldn't but stop to listen to all the words about one day we will be dancing in the streets of Jerusalem and the broken glass over Jerusalem. And I said to myself, we've been doing this for two thousand years. This is not a political statement. This is who we are. We are those scouts. We are that generation outside of the promised land. And we've got to fight for it.  We'll be respected. I think this was one of the messages of the Zionists, and it's only partially borne out... We'll be respected when we respect ourselves and when we stand on our own two feet and when we have our own army and we have our own language. Adam Yeah, I mean, that was you know, that was the lesson of the state of Israel that we have to believe in ourselves if we're going to have our own state. If we don't believe in ourselves, then we don't have a chance. It's not that people have to believe in us. We have to believe in ourselves. I mean, that's really nice, Geoffrey because what you're really in this week of the elections and everything, in Israel and they make a government. And what you're really saying is that it's not about people believing in us. It's about us believing in ourselves. Geoffrey And then I think it's like they always say, "Ve'ahavta l"rayacha Kwemocha" , love your neighbor as yourself. I really do believe that we can we are better when we respect ourselves. And it's trite, but I think it's true. I'd like to go on to another thought leader who is not normally considered a thought leader. He's thought of more as the Singing Rabbi. His name is Shlomo Carlebach. And a few years ago, I came across a recording of him talking about just this parsha. So I'm going to try something new on Madlik Clubhouse. And since it is an audio only platform, I'm going to try to play Shlomo Carlebach...  I'm going to invite him, so to speak, on to clubhouse. And I think you'll all be as excited as I am to see the personal direction that he takes this into, because we've been talking a lot about nationalism and movements and he goes in a different direction that I think relates more to Jewish renewal. So let's see if I can get this to work. Speaker Shlomo Carlebach  I just want to give you a little vitamin pill and strength, everybody talking about the Meraglim so much and I'm sure it sunk into you. Anybody who comes back from Israel and tells anything bad about Israel, tell them, my dear brother, the spies destroyed Israel and they didn't lie it's true. Moshe Rabenu says to Yehoshua (Joshua) "God should give you strength not to listen to them. Now, listen to this. Who are the miraglim? The miraglim were the biggest Rebbes of the world 10 big Rebbes. Just imagine yourself, little schmendrick, like you and I. We're going on a mission ... 10 big rabbis. And Yeshua was mamash a pupil of Moshe Rabbenu. The most humble person in the world. Right. All the rabbis sit there, and they say, listen, I want you to know they tell each other it's a bad scene to go to Israel, forget it "A land that eats it's people" don't go there. Do you know, according to the Torah, the majority decides? The Torah! You ask a yid, Torah... right? I want you to know, friends, thousands of Jews would have stayed alive if they would have not listened to a lot of rabbis. I know a Yid in Williamsburg. He lived somewhere, had a wife and 12 children, 1937. He asked a Rebbe: "Should I go to Israel?" He says: "God forbid, Israel is not frum" . He would have had his wife and 12 children. You know why Yehusha is the one to conquer Israel? Because Moshe Rabbenu gave them strength not to listen to anybody. Have enough guts! if the Ribono shel olam shines something into me, that's it. I want you to know there is prophecy .. Eretz Yisrael is deeper than prophecy. Prophecy means I know what's happening. What will happen tomorrow. I know which gilgil (re-incarnation) I am in. It's all cute. It's not what I need to know? The greatest light of Eretz Yisrael is to have enough guts to listen to the deepest depths of my heart, the deepest, deepest depts of my heart. My friends, I bless you and me. If you and I want to conquer Israel, want to make our way to the Holy Land, make our way into Yiddishkite, let's have the guts not to listen to anybody. I want you to know something else. The saddest thing in the world is... I want you to know everybody when they get married, they built their Eretz Yisrael. The Huppah is their Jerusalem. I want you to know, you know, the walking to the Huppah, it's like Avraham Avenu, is walking in Eretz Yisrael. The standing under the Huppah is like Yerushalyim, As it says: Omdos Hayu Ragalenu Yerusalim..." I bless you, friends. Whenever you find your soulmate, please don't ask anybody. Conquer your Eretz Yisrael! Just listen to the inside of the inside. Listen to the great rabbi ... the Mraglim... you know what they said they felt like cockroaches and mamash a giant. Right? I thought you're the greatest rabbi in the world. You afraid? Yeah. To the truth. Jacob teitz, this is my Rebbe? I don't want a Rebbe who's afraid. I don't a Rebbe who's afraid of anything in the world. I need a rebbe who's not afraid. And you know something in exile. It's a cute Rebbe'la. He's afraid of this one. Afraid of this one .. in Exile you can make it. You can even make to receive manna from heaven. Eretz Yisrael, No! Friends, I Bless you to have guts. inside. Inside, inside, inside. When you find your soul mate, just do it. Friends, I tell you something. If you would have asked all the Rebbes. Should we make a little ruach here, a little get-together. They would have asked how big is the mechitza, where do you get the meat. And who is Gedalia, who is Noami? Who is Meyer? Forget me, I'm treif anyway. Hash V'shalom... you're not permitted to do it! and the meantime, Baruch HaShem, Gedalia had the privilege of bringing together 100's of thousands of people. OK friends, Good Shabbos Good Yontov and I bless you to make it to Eretz Yisrael this summer. Don't ask questions, just go Good Shabbos Good Yom tov. Geoffrey Yeah. So had you heard that before? Adam That was amazing. Geoffrey Thank you. I was I was blown away. And by the way, it's edited. He also talks about women learning Torah and he says, are we going to ask a rebbe if we can study Torah? Women can study Torah. It really bridges the divide to the personal, personal, spiritual growth, and it bridges the divide to renewal of Judaism. And I was just blown away by it. So I. I just today came from a funeral of a Holocaust survivor. And her name is Esther Pederseil, and she was ninety-five and she had guts. And if we're talking about guts, I think that we have to definitely reference people like her who are survivors, they're not victims, they're survivors. And when her children spoke, they talked about her love of fashion and style, and they said that was her. That was her not.... Not her revenge, but her way of living. She wanted to live her life to the fullest and as much as she could she, showed that she was in the camp of Joshua and Caleb. And I just think that the lesson is really universal at the end of the day, it's a lesson for us personally. It's a lesson for every people who want to renew their future and get to their promised land. But it's certainly a lesson for us. And I think we should never whine, and we should only choose to conquer what we can conquer and to think highly of ourselves Adam And to listen only to ourselves, not to listen to others. What a powerful idea. Geoffrey Yeah, I, I when he kept on saying over and over again, I don't need a rebbe who's afraid, I mean  it was very powerful. And he touched thousands, tens of thousands of people with his music but also with the message of renewal and renewal Judaism. And as you said before, what our promised land is, is open to interpretation. But I think the message that one has to grab that and to actively aspire and engage. That is a universal truth. Adam Couldn't agree more. That was beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Geoffrey OK, well, Shabbat shalom, everybody. Adam  Shabbat Shalom everybody. Looking forward to next week.    

Oxide and Friends Twitter Space: May 31, 2021Silicon CowboysWe've been holding a Twitter Space weekly on Mondays at 5p for about an hour. In addition to Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal, speakers included Steve Tuck, Tom Lyon, Dan Cross, and others. The recording is here.(Did we miss your name and/or get it wrong? Drop a PR!)Some of the topics we hit on, in the order that we hit them: Silicon Cowboys documentary Open by Rod Canion Portable before Compaq, Silent 700 Osborne Effect PBS Silicon Valley documentary IBM's role in Compaq history 80's Ads: John Cleese, Charlie Chaplin Compaq and iPhone? Decline and Acquisition Something Ventured documentary PRs welcome! [@1:25](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=85) Bryan: Have you listened to the Reply All episode “Is the Facebook Microphone On?”The truth is actually scarier, Facebook doesn't need the mic to be on … to read your mind.Silicon Cowboys[@2:46](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=166) The 2016 documentary “Silicon Cowboys” follows the rise of the Compaq computer company. (IMDb) (Watch the trailer ~3mins)I was trying to watch “Halt and Catch Fire” with my kid … and there's a lot of spontaneous sex breaking out…Fastest to one billion in revenue… fastest to Fortune 500… a meteoric riseOpen by Canion[@7:05](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=425) The 2013 book “Open” by Rod Canion (cofounder and CEO of Compaq): “How Compaq Ended IBM's PC Domination and Helped Invent Modern Computing.”[@10:02](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=602) Steve: Ben Rosen was the venture capitalist who wrote the first check to Compaq, really got them off the ground. On the board for 20 years.Their timing was right. The way they did the company was right. And they executed really really well.To go from zero to 50 thousand units, of almost anything, in the time span they did, is incredible.[@14:40](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=880) Tom: The thing that really put them on the map was having the portable when nobody else did. And being 100% compatible.Those portables were barely luggable, they were huge!Back in a time when there was no network. Being able to pick up your computer and take it to a place, was your network.[@16:47](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1007) Steve: A big catalyst for their success was the channel. People were able to pick it up and go, they didn't need special training.[@19:25](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1165) Dad used to bring home the luggable so I could play Space Invaders, and he would work on spreadsheets.Portable before Compaq[@20:49](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1249) There were portable solutions before Compaq, but for timesharing.You had the T.I. Silent 700, in the 70's, you could tote that home and plug it into the modem.Osborne Effect[@22:41](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1361) Tom: They killed their company with the famous Osborne EffectBryan and Steve (clearly excited): What was the Osborne Effect!? Tom: Pre-announcing the next machine.Telling customers: man, if you love the Osborne 1, just wait till the Osborne 2… So they did Bryan: Something I found surprising about the history of Compaq was the different organizational approach that they had.Early on, before even thinking about what to go do, they were talking about the kind of company they wanted to build.PBS Silicon Valley[@26:14](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1574) The 2013 PBS documentary “Silicon Valley” tells the story of Fairchild Semiconductor. (Watch chapter one ~17mins)[@28:14](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1694) We ask people, when they apply to Oxide, when they've been most unhappy in their careers. And it all boils down to people not feeling listened to, not having agency.IBM's role[@29:41](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=1781) How much of Compaq's success is just pure mis-execution from IBM? IBM inadvertently creates this pseudo open architecture, and makes exactly the wrong move in trying to reproprietarize it with the PS/2 and Micro Channel architecture; which is an absolute disaster.In many ways the story of Compaq is as much the story of the failed PS/2.It was such a mis-execution to do this analysis on the market and say: we need to grab our existing customers and lock them in, before they slip through our fingers, and in doing so, just hasten their departure. And Compaq was in the right spot to pick up the pieces.MCA (Micro Channel architecture), ISA, EISA[@33:22](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=2002) We were ripping out a bunch of ISA and EISA drivers..I am a sacrificial sheep, I can't possibly go. You are a sacrificial lamb.The machines themselves are anemic, if you want any functionality you go to a third party.. There were magazines filled with advice on which sound-generating card you should buy.IBM PC XT – Hercules graphics card[@37:00](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=2220) Driver for Token Ring.PCI – SBus – VME – VLB – AGP[@40:20](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=2420) Speaking of Intel, a big part of the Compaq story is what happens with the 386.IBM clearly thought Intel would never give some clone manufacturer the first rights to the 386.They went from fast follower to innovator.OS/2 supported both 16 bit (for the 286) and 32 bit.[@42:07](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=2527) One of the headwinds working against IBM was that all the software companies wanted to see more competition in hardware vendors; they wanted to see the clones become real companies.Certainly Microsoft aided the rise of Compaq, no question. Compaq turned Microsoft into a real believer.80's Ads[@43:11](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=2591) I loved the 80's ads.John Cleese: Compaq Portable vs a Fish ~2minsCleese: I suppose the fish could give you a mega-bite! (laughs hysterically)Cleese: The Compaq Portable 2 however can run all IBM's most popular software, 30% faster than IBM can! (dryly) HA HA HABryan: Absolutely no joke, I knew Charlie Chaplin first through the IBM PC ads. I didn't even know they were making a reference!IBM Charlie Chaplin ads compilation ~9mins. (Aside: these are new to me. For me it painted the computers as accessible/approachable, something anyone could do; even a clumsy Mr. Bean character)You guys need to stop mocking the Chaplin ads. They were marketing gold and as a 5 year old watching bunny rabbit ear TV seeing those ads in the middle of Scooby Doo, I was begging my parents for an IBM PC Adam: My parents got a free Mac Plus when they opened a bank account! I know it's crazy anachronistic.Adam: In '86 we had a Commodore 64 and then upgraded to a Mac Plus. Bryan: That's a big upgrade! Adam: It was incredible.MacPaint – ImageWriter II – Dot matrix printing – The Print ShopWith the banner program, you could print “Happy Birthday”, and probably other messages, but it never came up..Compaq and iPhone?[@50:59](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=3059) Book and documentary ask: What if Compaq had made the iPhone?I think it cheapens the whole thing. No one should feel an obligation to claim their role in history by connecting themselves to the iPhone. The iPhone is not the pinnacle of human history.Just take your wins, and there are many of them. But, the time that they were dominant, that's the story.Decline and Acquisition[@53:24](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=3204) The movie ends when Canion is fired, by Rosen, which is pretty amazing.To be fair, DEC killed DEC.Tandem ComputersI feel like the later history of Compaq is this sugar high of sales continuing to spike, but then ultimately it's the ruin of the company. The company ceased to be an innovator.Compaq is acquired by Hewlett-PackardCompaq systems, at this point, were very expensive. And this was part of the controversy of Rod getting run out, was not wanting to go down market.[@59:51](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=3591) Speaking of HPE (Hewlett Packard Enterprise) and Compaq, they just relocated their headquarters to Huston.I feel like HP hasn't been a Silicon Valley company in a long long time.This was like the animals walking upright, where Compaq became a lot like IBM in a lot of their sales tactics.Something Ventured[@1:02:41](https://youtu.be/faY7kWHQuNE?t=3761) The 2011 documentary “Something Ventured” investigates the emergence of American venture capitalism. (Watch the trailer ~2mins) (Watch the documentary ~85mins)Tandem ComputersA 7 million dollar iceberg sitting in the datacenter, this Tandem. They were so reliant on it, they had another shrink wrapped just sitting on the datacenter floor, in the event that the first one ever went out.Jimmy Treybig is a super interesting character. Very iconoclastic engineer.I didn't realize that Tandem made KP. If it weren't for Tandem, Kleiner Perkins wouldn't have risen as a VC firm. They went all-in on Tandem, and Tandem had an outsized result.Our next Twitter space will be on Monday at 5p Pacific Time. Join us; we always love to hear from new speakers!

This is the last week Marketing BS will be 100% free. Starting Monday if you want the full Marketing BS experience you will need to subscribe. You can do that here. Subscribers get a weekly essay, weekly briefing and a two-part podcast interview (and more). Free subscribers receive one piece of content from the week every Friday. Subscriptions are half price until Friday.Adam was the co-founder of UrbanSpoon, Dwelable and now FreshChalk. He comes from an engineering background, but he has done some incredible marketing to grow his businesses. This is a dive into some of those strategies and tactics he used at FreshChalk. Some highlights:* How FreshChalk solves the problems of Yelp/AngiesList/HomeAdvisor* How Adam thinks about building two-sided marketplaces* How SEO has changed, and how he does it now* How to engage small businesses (who usually don't have time for “marketing services”)Subscribe to the podcast: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. Private Feed.TranscriptEdward: This is part two of my interview with Adam Doppelt. Today, we're going to dive into his experience as founder of Fresh Chalk.Adam, could you start by explaining what Fresh Chalk is?Adam: To start up the Genesis story is always interesting. That's always the interesting part to me.For one of my prior companies, I had to move to Austin and it was one of those weird situations that probably nobody ever goes through, except for a couple of lucky or unlucky individuals. I had to move to Austin with a couple of weeks' notice, including my family, my wife, and my three kids, and my dog. One of those kids was actually a six-month-old at the time. It's very traumatic to have to move to a new place like that. We were settled in Seattle, we'd been here for a long time. It's great that we sold the company, but we were not super excited about moving to Austin.Our opinion changed once we've been there for a while, but the idea of packing up and leaving Seattle was very difficult for us. We arrived in Austin and we immediately bought a house right away within a couple of weeks, and I got a car and we moved in. We had to acquire a bunch of furniture on no notice. I had an intense need for professionals. I needed a house cleaner and a babysitter and an arborist to look after the trees. It wasn't a particularly nice house, but you're in Austin, there are trees everywhere. I also needed people in specialties that I had never even dealt with before. I needed a termite person and I needed a garage door guy. We needed all kinds of things.I worked quite closely with this team at HomeAway and I started asking them for recommendations. Does anybody have a good termite person? Does anyone have a realtor? Does anybody know a good arborist, a plumber, an electrician, a handy person? The list kind of went on and on and on and I amassed pretty quickly this little spreadsheet of recommendations of what I thought were the best people that have been recommended to me by my new co-workers at HomeAway.A funny thing happened, when I had that spreadsheet as part of the acquisition, a handful of people had moved down to Austin as part of the deal, and they started asking me if they could look at it. They said oh Adam, I know you care about these things. You built up this spreadsheet of these professionals. I need that stuff, too. I just moved here. I need a cleaning person. I need a babysitter. I need a handyman. Can I just look at your spreadsheet? At the time, I was very focused on vacation rentals. I didn't think much about it. But then when I was trying to figure out what to do next, I remembered that experience. I thought, there's probably something here after years of looking on Yelp and Angie's list and Googling for the best electrician in Seattle.That is a very annoying and difficult and unreliable process, I might say. I'd much rather have recommendations from friends. That simple idea turned into Fresh Chalk, which is recommendations for local professionals from your friends. I was very focused on home improvement. I thought home improvement is where it's at. That's the sweet spot for me. But as we talked to potential users of our products—consumers—we quickly realized that there were equal opportunities in beauty and wellness, and health, and healthcare, financial services.All of these things turned out to be really fruitful. As much as I needed a plumber, if you need your eyebrows waxed, your needs are just as intense. We built this product we're making. I would say great progress with it and people love it.Edward: Talk more about how it's different from Yelp. Because can't I go on Yelp and see how people recommend hairdressers and eyebrow cleaners and plumbers, and can't I even see if my friends recommended those things on Yelp?.Adam: To some extent, you can do that. You can look at Yelp and you can get recommendations. They're not going to be from your friends. I've never seen a friend's recommendation on Yelp. The reason is because there's no social experience on Yelp. It's a lot of strangers recommending things. I can say from my experience at Urbanspoon and after that at Dwelable, a lot of those reviews are fake.The best way to get great reviews for your business is to ask your friends and family to write great reviews of your business. A lot of those reviews are really not to be trusted. I think that's a problem with Yelp. That's a problem on Google My Business, which is what you see when you're Googling for businesses. I think to a lesser extent on Angie's list because Angie's list had a lot more validation of their reviews. But reviews, whether they're from strangers—trusted or not—are not going to be as good as reviews from friends.When you want a real recommendation, what do you do? You pick up your phone and you text your buddy. If you're considering a remodel, you want to talk to your friend who just went through a remodel. That's always the best place to get that information. The other thing I've learned is that I have a real love for the story. I think maybe even you and I have talked about this before. When you told me about your house, I wanted to hear all about it. I wanted to hear about how you found it and the work you did on it, who did that work, and what they did right, what they did wrong, what you learned. With my maximizer philosophy, it's just I'm intellectually curious. I want to hear about those things. It turns out that you can share those stories pretty broadly.And a lot of people find that stuff fascinating. Not just about home improvement, or doctors, or pregnancy or whatever, but like maybe even about products or travel. There's a human need to share these stories from friend to friend. I think that's where Fresh Chalk can really shine.Edward: Is Fresh Chalk a two-sided marketplace?Adam: Yeah, it definitely is. Like the other ones I've done, we have local businesses or small businesses on one side and consumers on the other. There is a marketplace. There's no transaction per se, so it's hard to really put the word “market” in there. We don't have a transaction yet might be a better way to phrase that. But it's definitely a marketplace and we have to keep both sides happy.Edward: Where do you focus then? Do you focus on the merchants or the users? How do you weigh those two?Adam: It is so hard. This has been a struggle with all the companies in this band that I've participated in. My philosophy, and I can't say whether this is right or wrong, but my philosophy is that I really want to focus on the consumer side of things. That's what I like to do.I think that if you don't have consumer interest in your product, then the merchants are not going to show up. Why would they show up to use Fresh Chalk? Why would restaurants be on Urbanspoon if there are no diners on Urbanspoon? They're just not interested. My purpose has always been to get consumers interested first. Once you have consumers, the businesses are always going to show up. If you don't have consumers, it's very difficult to get businesses to show up. But especially with something like at Fresh Chalk, a lot of what we're doing is social. It's friend recommendations.You can bootstrap just by having people coming out of the recommendations and then sharing it with their friends. That will create a distribution for your product, even without having a lot of businesses on the platform.Edward: So how do you get users? What have you found that's successful getting users onto your platform and using it?Adam: Fresh Chalk is interesting because it's a combination of—there's a social network component, so it's people creating and sharing in a similar way as they would do on Facebook, or Nextdoor, or places like that. I guess Nextdoor isn't particularly social, but there is a lot of sharing.And then there's a ton of SEO. We have landing pages for a lot of the businesses in the cities that we cover, especially places where we've gone deep like Seattle, we might have every business. We also have the categories. There's a ton of SEO traffic coming in. If you start Googling for businesses in Seattle, you're probably going to see Fresh Chalk showing up in the top 10. So there's an SEO component, there's a social or viral component, and especially in the beginning where you're tinkering with the product, there's a lot of manual outreach. You've got to reach out to users and say hey, can you, can you kick the tires? Just give it a shot.Some of these social networks, they really jump start with these massive marketing efforts. That's never been my way of doing things, especially I'm not into raising all this money to experiment. I'd rather experiment with small amounts of money, and then when you feel like you have a good story, then you can put some money on marketing to really expand your reach.Edward: Talk to me more about the SEO. What are you doing on SEO? You can build a directory and Google obviously likes directories, but a directory without any traction is not going to get very far on Google. Why are you ranking?Adam: There's something to be said for breadth. We have this great directory. The last few companies that are built, there's been a crawling aspect to them. Fresh Chalk aggregates reviews from other sites, and so we can actually build even without anybody.If you were to look at Fresh Chalk Atlanta or some arbitrary city like that, we probably already have a decent ranking for small businesses because we're aggregating reviews from other third party sources, and we can put stars on those pages and maybe even attract some links with our badge program. We reach out to small businesses and we say, hey, you're one of the best businesses in Atlanta, you should put this badge on your page. And it's true. They are one of the best businesses in Atlanta because we calculated it. We're pretty certain about it.It's not like it rings false and we've got this good looking badge, and a lot of these companies are very happy to put on their site that creates links for us and increases people's knowledge of Fresh Chalk. I think that SEO is always the long game. The way I talk about it is that it's like a garden and we have planted some seeds and the seeds are growing. I can tell you that yesterday was our best traffic day ever, and most of that is just organic SEO. We've been to the garden, we are watering the garden and some things are sprouting.Edward: Let's talk a little bit more about those merchants. How are you getting merchants to sign up?Adam: The easiest way to get them to sign up is there are some very simple pitches you can give them. I've always had good luck with really honest pitches. In fact, that's the only pitch that I can do.Edward: Adam, when you say pitches, is this like an email you're sending them or it's like you calling them up and talking to them?Adam: Direct outreach either through email or in some cases, phone. The things you say to these small businesses are honest. What you say to them are things like hey, we built this great page for you on Fresh Chalk and people are leaving reviews on Fresh Chalk. Would you like to be notified when you get a review on your page? People say yeah, of course I want to be notified. Then we go and collect an email address and they're on the platform. They're considered a verified merchant on the platform.The obvious backdrop to this whole conversation is COVID and lockdown and how that has affected small businesses in the US which is not good, in case anybody's been living under a rock. But if you put that aside, Fresh Chalk has had pretty good success with getting businesses to sign up on Fresh Chalk.Edward: Doing that way, doing the direct outreach, is that one of those things that don't scale, or do you think this outreach strategy is scalable?Adam: I've always had good luck with doing them in ways that don't scale in the beginning. So you try things. We may hire somebody, you just have to make a thousand phone calls. That's fine. If we measure the response rate, the commercial management, we may try a few different pitches. Maybe we hire somebody and have them send 1000 emails, handcrafted, and we measure the response rate. If it seems like it's working, we can always hire 10 people to do that. That's a playbook that has worked for me really well in the past.I have a high sensitivity to spam and people's time, and these small businesses are playing in an environment where all these small businesses really, really, really hate Yelp. I can't even tell you the anger that small businesses feel towards Yelp. They despise Yelp with the heat of 1000 suns. They really can't stand Yelp.In a way, Fresh Chalk through—I'd say some planning and a lot of luck—is the anti-Yelp. We don't have negative reviews. It's just recommendations. You can recommend a business. If you want to take a dump on a business and say I hated this place, you have to accumulate a certain amount of karma points on Fresh Chalk before you can even access that feature.If some electrician comes to your house and they blow your fuse and charge you $800, which by the way, has happened to me, and I want to leave a negative review, I can do that because I've been on Fresh Chalk and I've accumulated all this karma and I have access to the negative review feature. But you can't get these drive by negative reviews. These rants where people trash businesses, we don't have that feature. We didn't design it that way. It's supposed to be positive. We want to step away from all the negativity on the internet and get great recommendations from your friends. Sure, maybe your friends want to steer you away from businesses. But mostly, they just want to point you at the right electrician, not rant about the wrong one.When we talk to these small businesses, anybody who bothers to listen to us for more than about 30 seconds, they start to understand the Fresh Chalk is the anti-Yelp. It's social. It's positive. We want their business to succeed. It's free. It's a pretty good pitch. The trick is just getting past—if you can get them to pick up the phone and listen for a few seconds, you probably can get them to sign up. Edward: Right now, there's no monitor. As you said, it's free for users, it's free for merchants. Where is your monetization going to come from?Adam: I've had good luck with these businesses. Until you really know they've got some product-market fit and some usage and people are interested in what you built—if you built something compelling—that's always a good time to start layering on monetization, the kinds of products that I build. I'm very wary of trying to monetize too early. Obviously, if you build a platform where consumers are coming in to get recommendations for services, or products, or restaurants, or travel, the advertising revenue is obvious there. There's a very obvious play for businesses that just want to get more traffic. That's something that, if we had real traffic, I think we'd be looking into, once we get there.The other place that really stands out to me is referral programs. A lot of these businesses are already tracking referrals. If you use a particular service, they want to know how did you hear about us? Was it one of our existing customers? And then they kick them a $25 gift certificate or a free cleaning is something that dentists do sometimes. All of these businesses are looking for ways to increase their own businesses, and we're very receptive to that. Fresh Chalk, as a social platform for sharing recommendations, is really well suited to slide right into those referral programs and maybe take them over and start tracking them and doing rewards, and I could see that being a great way to monetize as well. But that's all down the road. Right now, we just got to make something that's fun, and then we can monetize it later. Edward: Transitioning from fun, you mentioned earlier that COVID has affected your business. You talk a little bit about how you guys responded to COVID.Adam: Obviously this has been a horrible time for everybody, particularly in the US, and if you're running a small business, it is so, so, so hard right now. We can tell that many small businesses are struggling or closing. The cities that have been hit the hardest and have locked down the best are the ones that are having the most trouble keeping their small businesses alive. The restaurant business is basically dead. Travel is toast. A lot of the services that people love on Fresh Chalk are really struggling.Our most popular category six months ago was probably nail salons, and people are not really going to nail salons at the moment, or if they are it's 1 out of 10 if they're going before. These businesses are on life support, Fresh Chalk is really well-positioned to, in some ways, be the voice of those communities. If you have something to say to your customers about what you're doing to be safe with COVID, Fresh Chalk is a great place to get the word out. We have a COVID status thing where any small business can say we're doing curbside pickup and we're all masked up. We do a very thorough cleaning each night with XYZ products. Fresh Chalk is a great place to say that to your audience.We've also advocated for a lot of these communities. We stepped in and we worked with some of these small business alliances to run surveys, to find out how small businesses are feeling about things. I have to say, it's heartbreaking. It's very sad. I didn't know this, but I am a lover of small businesses. I frequent a lot of small businesses in my neighborhood and around Seattle.I had a guy come to my house and his specialty was working on gas fireplaces. That's pretty much all he did and mine was broken and he fixed it, and then he spent half an hour rearranging the little fake embers so that it looks more aesthetically pleasing, which I didn't even know that I needed. But he was practically in there with toothpicks moving things around.When I meet somebody like that, it really makes a strong impression on me. Somebody who loves their work and it's not in technology and it is important and they're getting paid for it and they are enjoying it. I'm getting a lot of value out of it. I love businesses like that, and I want those businesses to survive COVID. A lot of them won't. I think it's incredibly sad. But Fresh Chalk is here to help some of them survive. We're doing our best.Edward: Adam, thank you. This has been fantastic. I like to end these interviews by asking you about quake books. But in your case, it's more of a quake genre. Is that right?Adam: Be more specific. What would you like to hear?Edward: I think you mentioned that science fiction has dramatically changed your life and how you think about things.Adam: I have read a lot of books that made strong impressions on me. Sometimes you read books, it takes you a long time to really internalize what they mean. Some of the books that I read as a kid, I think, are still resonating with me. Sidhartha made a really strong impression on me as a kid. I still remember very clearly, and more recently things like The Three-Body Problem which is a science fiction book.Occasionally, you read a book and you're just desperate for it not to end, and then once it's over, you close it and you think, I wish they had written another one, and they've been dead for 100 years. That's what a lot of my reading is like.I was reading a book the other day by Jack Vance who, I think, was a largely forgotten fantasy, science fiction guy. I was laughing so hard. I'm lying in bed, reading it on my phone. Shannon's asleep next to me, and I'm chuckling and the bed is shaking. It's the middle of the night and I'm cracking up. How often do you read a book like that? It's like my whole philosophy of life. I'm always going deep and looking for these hidden gems, and you know what? Sometimes you find them.Edward: We're going to end with that. Thank you, Adam. This has been fantastic.Adam: Thanks Ed. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

We bring you: secret societies, Victorian antagonists and plenty of viewpoints to fit the topics in the Victorian Companion book. Enjoy!CreditsWritten by:Ann Sullivan Braidwood (Victorian Characters)Mark Cenczyk (The Twilight Globe)Genevieve Cogman (The Stories of the Age)Daniel L. Quackenbush (The Practical Arts)Mikko Rautalahti (The Night Society and Beyond)W. Van Meter (Behind the Façade) VampireWorld of Darkness created by Mark Rein•HagenAdditional Material by Adam Tinworth (Docks: The Lifeblood of Civilization)Storyteller Game System Design: Mark Rein•HagenDeveloped by: Bruce BaughEditor: Janice SellersArt Director: Richard ThomasLayout & Typesetting: Ron ThompsonInterior Art: Mike Danza, Guy Davis, Matt Mitchell, Christopher Shy, and Andrew Trabbold Front Cover Art: Christopher Sh Front & Back Cover Design: Ron ThompsonAcknowledgmentsKen “Hey There” Cliffe and Justin “Kick Some Ass” Achilli for the totally unexpected opportunity.Bryan “Have a Cookie” Armor and the usual gang for encouragement at just the right times.Adam “It’s Not In Yorkshire” Tinworth and Alejandro “He Wasn’t That Bad” Melchor, for comments on Chapter Two.WVM and JR thank Critter Casaubon and Kram Diotallevi for invaluable research assistanceWawa and the Happy Ninja for energyMike for having dual citizenship.Purchase it here: Victorian Age Vampire CompanionSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/25yearsofvampirethemasquerade/posts)

If you’re looking for insights into the trends of the eCommerce industry, look no further than Adam Rose, the Chief Talent Officer, of eCommerce Placement. Adam has had a long career as a recruiter, including the last decade at eCommerce Placement, the company he founded to focus on the industry he believed was the future. That bet has paid off, and as the eCommerce industry has grown and changed, Adam has been in the middle of it all. What are the skills eCommerce based businesses are looking for? Where are eCommerce leaders focusing their attention and investing in growth? How is consumer behavior leading the shifts we’re seeing in the industry and how can those working in the industry be successful using analysis of that behavior? Which industries and companies are emerging as big-time players in the eCommerce landscape? Adam has the answers to all of those questions, and he shared them with us on this episode of Up Next in Commerce.   3 Takeaways: Ecommerce offers positions of the future, and right now very few colleges are offering programs that prepare students for them. Those who want to get into the industry need to be lifelong learners and seek out new knowledge Consumer behavior has completely changed, and industries are seeing a shift that they thought they would have years to prepare for, happen in just a few months. That has led to a movement to build Ecommerce teams quicker than ever before CPG companies are starting to heavily invest in Ecommerce, which presents an opportunity for people who want to work in Ecommerce the ability to work in a newly-entrepreneurial environment but with more resources For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postals. And today I have Adam Rose on the show. How's it going? Adam: It's going great. Thank you. Really happy to be here. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here too. Tell me how did you first get involved in the world of e-commerce? What led you to create this company? Adam: Yeah. So eCommerce Placement, we are a leading e-commerce recruitment firm and what we do is we work with online retailers, e-commerce technology companies, really anyone that touches upon e-commerce. And we're recruiting across the full spectrum of e-commerce functional areas. So that's leadership roles, strategy and management, digital marketing across the whole channels, site merchandising, operations, analytics, logistics and fulfillment, creative technology, the entire gamut. And we've been doing this for 10 years and e-commerce as you know has been growing year after year. So we're just very fortunate to be in this space and one that's really interesting. Adam: Yeah. So, well I've actually been in recruitment my entire career. It is all I know and all I can do. But I went to school and I have a bachelor's degree from Rutgers in psychology and realized I didn't really want to be a psychologist, but I minored in labor and employment relations, which is essentially HR. And that got me into thinking about recruitment or HR as a career. And I ended up getting my masters in HR manager at Rutgers as well. And when I got out of school, I started in more of a generalist HR role at a financial services company doing benefits and compensation and recruitment. And the recruitment piece is what I really liked and decided that's what I wanted to stick with. So I was doing recruitment for several different financial services companies and then a little bit of pharmaceutical as well. And it wasn't until I landed a corporate recruiting position at Borderfree that I got into e-commerce. And Borderfree was a startup e-commerce software as a service company. Adam: And what they did was they allowed US-based online retailers to sell their products overseas to international customers seamlessly. Just like if they were here within the US, yes. And we had about 50 employees at the time when I joined and I grew that company to about 350 before it was sold to Pitney Bowes, much larger organization. Yes, but it was there that I saw that e-commerce was a really hot industry, that folks were still figuring it out. It was a really cool industry if you're an entrepreneur, if you like startup environments, which I did, very different from financial services and pharmaceutical. And I saw that there was a huge need for e-commerce specific recruiting agencies out there. We were working with some of the larger recruitment firms that were just very generalists. They didn't focus in e-commerce, but they were trying to help us regardless. Adam: And I saw that they just didn't have a good understanding of what we did, the types of candidates that we needed, where they'd be coming from, what they'll be doing. And after a while I said to myself that I could do that. I see what these agency recruiters are doing on their end and honestly it seems better than what I'm doing on the corporate side because they're not having to deal with a lot of the paperwork that I have to do, a lot of the internal struggles that I have. And they were doing the best part of recruiting, in my opinion, which is just proactively going out there and sourcing top talent. And that's what got me into recruiting in the first place and got me excited about it. I think it's one of the most strategic parts of business is bringing in the right talent, without that talent that your business may not be so successful. So that's really what got me thinking about making the switch and 10 years later I'm really glad that I did. Adam: And what we're really good at right now is just the fact that over the past 10 years, we've built this huge e-commerce talent network. We have our proprietary database of candidates, we utilize LinkedIn where we have a huge network and following there. And that's a differentiator that a lot of other recruitment firms don't have. And we're also building very longterm relationships with prospective candidates, following them throughout their career. Just being there for them, regardless of whether or not we have opportunities for them in providing advice around their resume, around their career goals and that playing the longterm game is, in this business, I think very important. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that's exciting. So how do you vet talent? Because it seems like, at least when I was at Google Day's interview questions were kind of hard to rely on because people would get through and you'd be like, "How did you get here? You definitely don't belong here." So what are some good tips that you could give to other e-commerce brands who are looking to hire? What kind of interview questions or tactics or strategies do you do to vet candidates to make sure that they're the right fit for the company and actually have the knowledge that's needed? Adam: Yeah. So the first thing is that the company itself really has to have a good idea of what their needs are. And that's our job too, is working with them initially to make sure that we're all on the same page. And a lot of times our clients don't even have job descriptions created. And then we have to work with them directly to create that job description and make sure that everything's buttoned up so that when we are going out there and trying to identify the right candidate and speaking with them, we have really good sense of what they're looking for. And I'm talking to them about what their day to day job looks like, the responsibilities, where these people should be coming from and what their soft skills are needed for these positions, everything. And then we go out there and we take a look and do some research to what similar companies, what are some of the competitors out there that maybe we should be tapping into? Adam: Job titles may differ between organizations too. So we'll make a list of all the different job titles that could potentially match this position. And then we'll do an extensive search on that end. And then once we get them on the phone, it's really just conversational. We don't do very hard hitting questions. Our goal is just to make sure that A, the candidate is interested, that this would be something that they could potentially see themselves doing in the future and that they also have the right skillset for it. And that comes out during a conversation when you're just asking them, tell me a bit about your experience. Walk through your background with me. Do you have experience on this side of the business? And if not, is that something that you think you could tackle in your next role? So it's really just getting to know the person. Adam: And then what we do is we send a summary of their experience, their resume, their compensation expectations over to the client and they decide from there whether or not they think this person might be the right fit and they'll get them on the phone and usually to do an initial phone interview and go from there. But what we aim to do is really focus on quality over quantity. There are a lot of recruitment firms out there that kind of give us a bad rap by sending over 100 candidates for a position and- Stephanie: These people I Googled and they're looking for work on LinkedIn. Adam: Exactly, exactly. And hoping that one of them sticks and they're just throwing them at the wall. But we don't do that. We send over three, four, maybe five candidates and these are all people that we feel you would at least benefit from by getting on a call with them. And our resume to hire ratio is insanely high. Our interview to hire ratio's insanely high and we're really proud of that. Stephanie: That's awesome. So are there any skills that these e-commerce company companies specifically are looking for that are hard to kind of find right now? Like there was a shortage and people who knew... engineers always refer to engineers out here, is there a skill where all the companies want this right now and if you had the skill you would get scooped up but I can't find it. Adam: You're totally right about engineering. Any technology position is incredibly valuable right now for e-commerce organizations. And that's everything from engineering to product management, which is a really interesting field for a lot of people to get into that really makes this business strategy and technology that I try to steer people into because they're always needed. Stephanie: And that's not actually a career path that you're told about in the early days. I know I heard about product management, I'm like, "What does that actually mean?" And then, well you kind of should be a little bit technical and you should also have a strategic hat on when you're thinking, I'm like, "I've never heard of this when I came out of college. Why not?" Adam: That's right, that's right. These are roles that people really just fall into. And that's across all of e-commerce. There are very few colleges out there that offer any type of program in e-commerce. So when you get a degree in marketing, you may not be thinking about e-commerce marketing. It's a very vast field and that's just an example. So these are positions of the future that I try to steer new grads into or those that are looking to make a career change because this is an incredible field. But getting back to your question, our hottest positions right now are anything related to Amazon. Companies are really doubling down on their Amazon business, whether it be a marketing or sales, channel management, Amazon is huge. It's the elephant in the room, right? So- Stephanie: It seems obvious, but when I hear that I'm like, "Oh, I wouldn't think about hiring for a role specifically focused on Amazon," but it makes. Adam: Yeah, Amazon, other marketplaces, retailer.com channels. If you're a brand or manufacturer of products that are sold on Overstock, Wayfair, Zulily, you need to manage your online sales strategy and execution on those sites. So there are roles that are specifically focused on doing that as opposed to their direct to consumer channel off their own website. It's a very vast and complex e-commerce industry. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's really interesting. How would someone develop skills for an Amazon specific role? It seems like you would have to maybe be a seller on Amazon and to know all the ins and outs. You would actually have to have been there, done that to be able to help another company? Adam: Yeah. So, yes. And part of what we get tasked to do is go out there and find individuals that have very relevant skill sets that can come in day one and hit the ground running. And that's what we're good at. But when I advise people on how to get that experience, you have to start small. You have to take on additional responsibilities. If you're in a direct to consumer role right now and you're specialist, start taking on more general generalist responsibilities, start dipping your feet into Amazon and just start asking questions and learn because this is the future and this is how you grow in your e-commerce career. E-commerce is really cross-functional. You need to work across all different departments. Across marketing and merchandising and promotions and fulfillment in no matter what role you're in. And you're going to have to deal with e-commerce metrics and web analytics in almost every role that you're in. Adam: So that's another question I get for individuals that are looking to get into e-commerce and they don't know how to do it and they don't know how to differentiate themselves. Maybe they've been working on the retail side, the retail brick and mortar side, and they're seeing everything that's going on now and they're like, "Oh, Adam, I really want to get into e-commerce. How do I differentiate myself? What do I do to get my foot in the door?" And one of the things I always recommend is get certified in Google Analytics. It's free. Google, they allow you to do this on their site. They have a program. And that's something that is incredibly important for you to know. Almost every company uses Google Analytics in some way even if they do have a more sophisticated web analytics software and it's free and you can put it on your resume and it's great to talk about during interviews. So things like that and I think are really important. Stephanie: Got it. Well, how do you see the industry changing? Seems like e-commerce, of course, is changing really quickly and when I think about having... I mean, I love Google, I work there. But I think having Google Analytics as a certification, what's next? Because I know at least on our side, when it comes to marketing campaigns and things like that, Google Analytics isn't somewhere that we utilize anyways even if we're not e-commerce. But I'm thinking about what's coming next after that? What are the next platforms or tools or technologies or focus areas maybe that would come after that that someone could dive deep into along with Google Analytics because they are a force used by everyone in the industry too. Adam: Yeah, no, it's a good question. And there are new platforms coming out all the time. There are platforms that are getting acquired left and right. There are tons of different marketing technologies out there, whether they're related to paid search or email marketing. What I find is that companies, for the most part, don't really care what you have experienced in as long as you have some sort of experience in these technologies because you can pick it up. It doesn't take a genius to figure these out, but it does take someone that has a digital mindset or somebody that really could tackle the complexities of these different programs. Adam: But if you've mastered one, it's really not that hard to master others. So yes, there are new platforms and new technologies coming out all the time and you really should do your best to update your skillset. But from my perspective, companies, in terms of what they're requiring, you don't need to have experience across all of these different tools. Which is good because how are you going to get your hands on Adobe Analytics if your company is not using it? It's very difficult, right? So I think it's important to demonstrate your ability to learn these new programs first and foremost. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. That's what we look for when... whenever I'm going through the hiring process here, I look for more of like, do you have the ability to learn something and you have experience showing that you've tried new things and learn new things. You don't have to know exactly how to use Adobe Audition, but could you pick it up because you've tried it? A different tool or something. Adam: Yes. Yeah, it's a bit of a balance and sometimes a bit of a fight when we're working with our clients and they want skill sets that are so specific and experience that is very specific to what they're doing currently. Where it's like, "Hey, do you really need that or can this person learn that?" And then they start thinking about it and we come to a bit of a compromise there. Stephanie: Yep. Cool. So I'm sure with all the companies that come to you for hiring right now, you might be seeing a different trend. Whether maybe it's online grocery picking up and people asking you for help there. What industries do you see growing the fastest right now with everything going on? Adam: Yeah. You're totally right and online grocery is huge right now and these are industries that were just novel, they were new. Online alcohol delivery, very new and that has been accelerated during these current times. And you look at pet food, you look at children's toys, you look at home improvement, furniture. These are areas that are doing very well. Consumer health and beauty. We're working with clients that are in these spaces right now that they're e-commerce volume is where they wanted it to be a year from now, but they haven't hired accordingly because who knew? And they're scrambling and that's very common right now. But they know that things are going to continue to spike even after everything's back to normal and digital transformation is going to be accelerated more so than ever before. Adam: There's going to be increasingly heavy investments in e-commerce and omni-channel. So we're still in a really good spot. Everything is still really new. E-commerce as a whole is surprisingly a very small percentage of overall revenue for a lot of retailers and every point that jumps up is a lot for these companies and we're going to continue to see that. So think about online furniture where consumer behavior has just completely changed where in the past people wouldn't do it. They wanted to go to a store and sit on a couch or try out a bed and now you don't need to do that. People are way more comfortable shopping online for these types of products without ever seeing it, without ever feeling it in person. And we're going to see that across many industries at this point. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. Do you think things will stay the same post pandemic because some things I'm thinking like furniture anyways, I would still want to try out and sit, whereas beds, I'm pretty used to buying a mattress and being able to send it back. But furniture, a lot of companies, anyways, you can't just send it. Are there certain industries that you think will kind of go through a dip period again after everything calms down and then maybe ramp back up or you just think everything's going to stay elevated at where it's at now? Adam: Well, some of the elevation right now is severely elevated just because of everything that's going on so we'll see a dip for sure. But overall across the board I do think e-commerce activity is going to remain... the volume is just going to be extremely high. And to your point with wanting to shop for a couch but still sit on it, yes. But companies are getting way better at returns, making that an easy process and deliveries. Consumers are demanding faster and faster and they're expecting faster and faster deliveries and companies are really working on that. And there are a lot of vendors out there that are 3PLs and similar to that are supporting them in getting those items up to these customers as fast as possible. And you're going to see an increase in online volume just due to the fact that it's becoming much easier. The barriers are breaking down. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. I just wanted to order something off Amazon, and I saw now that you don't have to bring a box back, you just bring it back to the UPS store and will ship it out with no box. And I'm like, "Oh, this is awesome." Because that is actually what has held me up from returning things is not being able to find a box and being lazy. But I can definitely see a lot of industry's changing and making that return process a lot more seamless. So then I will feel comfortable buying furniture or other things like that. Adam: That's right. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. So do you see any technological patterns or trends coming down the pipe that you're excited about because of this? Because I'm sure the underlying tech will have to change for a lot of these companies who, like you said, they weren't expecting this this year. They're maybe expecting a year, even five years down the line. Adam: Yeah, I'm a bit of a technology nerd, especially consumer technology, just personally. And what had really excited me prior to the pandemic was everything that was going on in regard to augmented reality and virtual reality and e-commerce. That was another field that was kind of teetering. We didn't know if it was going to be successful. We didn't know if that was going to be adopted. But now with people not going into stores as much, it makes a lot of sense. If you want to see what your beauty product looks like on you without even going into a store and you are able to do that just by holding your phone up. That is amazing. You can see your different hair colors, you can, going back to furniture, you can place that furniture in your room using your phone without even going into a store to see it. So there's a lot of really neat things that they can do on that AR, VR side that can make customers a lot more comfortable shopping online than ever before. Stephanie: Yeah, no, no. That's a really exciting space right now. Have you seen companies embracing that now? Companies who were not embracing it before actually starting to think about embracing it now? Because it still feels like a field that feels a little bit hard to break into right now, because it's like, "What tech do I need? How do I get started?" Adam: It is very, very new. And I think that most companies that are thinking about it are mostly in just the very early development stage where they're talking about it. They're putting in into some strategic plans, but still need to work out the kinks. There are very few companies that do it right, right now, but I it's I think an interesting field to watch. Stephanie: I'm still trying to think about too how the difference between how a company can use AR versus VR. Because VR feels easier to me because you're in that world and things don't have to be perfect. AR still has to be perfect. So I'm trying to think about, at least when we were trying to get things to work on Google maps in an AR version and it was really hard. I mean, it was snowing in Zurich and then the whole time the app would go down and some will change a piece of a building and put a sign on it and then the localization would be wrong and then it'd go down again. So I'm trying to think about which one would come first or maybe at the same time. Adam: So it's certainly not perfect and the technology is getting better every year. VR is very expensive. You need to have a complete headset and there are not a lot of freestanding headsets either. So it needs to be connected to a computer as far as I'm aware. AR is a lot easier. You can utilize your smartphone and the technology is a little bit more limiting, but it does allow you to do a lot more with it. So I think companies are probably better off investing in augmented reality to start seeing how that grows because consumer adoption of virtual reality headsets, it's just not there yet. But everybody has a smartphone. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. And I think I just saw maybe Magic Leap, I mean, other than having to lay off a bunch of people, they're shifting to enterprises now and they're not focusing on consumers. They're also wondering if there's going to be a hiccup there with the companies who were producing the big headsets that were more expensive if they're going to be there after all of this. Adam: Yeah. For consumers, I'm not really sure. But other industries, for the medical field, I can imagine Magic Leap being huge, right? So there's a lot of potential there and we'll see how it grows on the consumer side. Stephanie: Got it. Are there any industries in e-commerce that you're most excited about right now other than the ones that are popping up now. But before all this started, are there industries that you were focused in on? Adam: So it's interesting. When we first started, our business was very much comprised of fashion apparel companies, consumer electronics companies. It wasn't until the past two, three years that CPG companies started investing very heavily in e-commerce. They were a little bit late to the game and they realized it. They started figuring out e-commerce and we're talking food and beverage companies, we're talking consumer health companies. And it's very exciting times for them where they're figuring out direct to consumer, they're figuring out marketplace, they're figuring out retailer.com and did they have very large complex businesses. Adam: A lot of these are very omni-channel too where they have stores and they're incorporating their mobile application into their omni-channel strategy. So we're working with a ton of these and I think that the opportunity there is really interesting as they really focus more on the customer journey as well. That they can the customer... if you're going into a store, you don't really have the ability to customize an experience for that customer as they walk into a store and look at your product on the physical shelf but on a digital shelf you can do that. So there's a lot of opportunity there for emerging CPG companies to provide a really interesting customer journey to their experience that they otherwise couldn't. Adam: And that is beneficial if your product is a subscription based, right? How do you maintain loyalty in a subscription environment? How do you differentiate yourself from a lot of other CPG brands out there? Maybe even ones that compete on price. So these companies are really trying to figure it out and hiring very large e-commerce teams to do so. So for us it's been a lot of fun working with them and for candidates, it's if you want to work in a very entrepreneurial startup like environment, but still for a very large company that has a ton of resources to make it successful, CPG is the way to go. Stephanie: That's the most fun when you have resources to actually try something [inaudible 00:29:03]. Adam: Yeah, yeah. A little less risky, but still you get the benefits of that startup environment. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's fine. Are there any companies that you either hear your clients looking to as leaders to watch or that you advise them like, Hey, you should check out maybe this company because they're a leader with this, this and this. Is there anyone that we should look to either mimic or follow? Adam: Everybody wants to be the next cool startup in e-commerce. And everyone's like, we want to be the next Casper. We want to be the next- Stephanie: Dollar Shave Club. Adam: Dollar Shave Club or Harry's or whatever it might be. But this is where you have to level set with early stage startups and entrepreneurs. They think many times that they're going to be able to acquire top talent just because their idea is so cool. And that's often not the case and they're oftentimes looking to pay them more heavy on the equity side than base compensation. And they think that because of their idea's so cool that people are going to see the potential on this and that's going to be okay for them. The truth is that's not the case. That if you're an early stage startup or an entrepreneur, you have to pay market rates. You just do. That's the only way to be competitive. If you want top talent in the marketplace, you're going to have to do that on top of providing equity. So we have to level set sometimes and make sure that they understand that and it's a challenge, but you're talking about their baby when you do that but that's just what we see in the marketplace. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. Have you seen salaries grow over the past 10 years when it comes to what people are willing to pay e-commerce talent? Adam: Yeah. Yeah. E-commerce it pays well, it does because this is a huge revenue area for companies. They have a lot at stake here and these are roles that are highly specialized and there's not a huge talent market out there. If you want to remain competitive, you have to pay highly competitive rates. So companies know this, they get it, they understand it. We work with companies that are based outside of major cities, but for their e-commerce talent, they really want to pay city rates, city market rates just to remain competitive and for not just acquisition but for retention too. They don't want them jumping to another company. And this is going to be a significant factor going forward too with all these companies investing heavily in e-commerce and e-commerce teams growing and every company looking to hire e-commerce talent, how do you remain competitive? Adam: And that is, first and foremost in my opinion, compensation. And then companies are going to have to start thinking about remote or flexible work arrangements because this is what everybody wants. People reach out to me daily asking me if we have remote opportunities. This was before everything happened. And now I think that this is going to be front and center in people's minds and on their wishlist going forward and companies are either going to need to adjust to this or be okay with losing out on top talent. Stephanie: Yeah. And I think this might've been a good forcing function to get those companies to a place where they feel more comfortable as long as they see good results. A lot of people have been working from home now, I could see some companies seeing bad results and some seeing good ones so it all depends. Adam: I'd hate for them just to base it on this time right now because it is such an unprecedented time that people are... their kids are home. It is very difficult to get things done and have to figure out how to work remotely maybe when they haven't in the past. And it's just a very unique environment right now. Test it when everyone's back at work and things are a bit back to normal. That I think would be the true test. Stephanie: Yeah. Have you seen any of your clients adapting quickly to try and create good work from home type opportunities where maybe they're like, "Okay, I'm going to shift that job req to be remote now instead?" Or are they a little bit slower with that? Adam: Yeah. So certainly a lot of our clients have said, "This is the final straw. These roles are going to be remote. Don't worry about having people work in house for this or onsite." But what's happening now is that everything is remote where candidates are being interviewed over the phone and over Zoom. They're being hired over Zoom. They are getting onboarded over Zoom. They're going through orientation over Zoom. So everything is virtual and it's a learning curve for everybody. It's a learning curve for these companies. It's a learning curve for candidates. I've had candidates that had to do presentations, interview presentations over Zoom, and that's very unique and different and- Stephanie: Awkward. Adam: Very awkward. There are a lot of new challenges there. Stephanie: It's like, "Are you laughing over there? Oh, it's just frozen. Okay. Oh, awkward." Adam: Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. So we're all figuring this out at the same time. And I think that in a more normal environment that companies will see that this is the future, you can't stop it. Stephanie: All right, so towards the end of the interview here we do this thing called a lightning round sponsored by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where you can quickly answer whatever comes to mind and you have one minute and you have about five questions here. Adam: Okay. Stephanie: Are you ready Adam? Adam: I am ready. Stephanie: Okay, I'll start with the easier ones first and then we'll have a harder one last. All right. Since we were talking with you and our producer Hillary, that it's lunchtime for you guys. What's up next for lunch? Adam: Oh. So I am a big granola fan and I will eat granola for every meal of the day. And that's what I will probably hit up for lunch. Stephanie: Yum. I haven't heard your stomach rumbling yet so amazing. What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu queue? Adam: Interesting. I have had Ozark on there the new season for a long time. I just have not had the opportunity to watch it. But that is a really interesting show and I've been looking forward to it. Stephanie: Awesome. I see our producer, Hillary is in my dock right now in all caps saying, "I love granola too." That's good. Adam: I'm glad. Stephanie: That is a fan favorite. What's up next in your travel destinations? When you are allowed to travel? Adam: Oh man. I can't wait to get out of the house, first and foremost. But assuming we can get out this summer, Maine has been our favorite destination for summer trips. We go to Portland, Maine. Love it there. The restaurants are fantastic. It's on the water, there tons of parks to go to. We bring our kids, our dogs and the whole family goes and just they have a great time. So I'm hoping to still get there at some point. Stephanie: Awesome. Yeah, it sounds really pretty. What's up next on your reading list or podcast list other than this podcast or [inaudible 00:37:46]? Adam: So my favorite podcast probably have to be How I built This with Guy Raz. So I listened to that pretty religiously and I love hearing the stories of these entrepreneurs and how they get started and what they did to scale and the challenges that they did face. And one of my favorite questions that Guy likes to ask is how much of your success can be attributed to luck? And surprisingly, almost everybody says a lot. And I find that just a really interesting. And, again, we talked about being in the right place at the right time and I think that's really interesting. Of course, you make your own luck by getting yourself out there and working hard but the luck is certainly is a big factor. Stephanie: Oh yeah, completely agree. A lot of the reason we're here is because of luck for sure. And timing and being like, "Oh, glad that happened when it did, because if not, we might not be at this company right now." Adam: That's right, that's right. Stephanie: So completely agree. All right. The harder question. In your opinion, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Adam: For individuals in e-commerce? Stephanie: Yeah. Adam: What's up next? I think that we're going to be seeing a lot of activity, a lot of companies doubling down on e-commerce like I mentioned. And what they're going to be looking for are people that can understand the entire e-commerce ecosystem and that may be everything from retail, brick and mortar to omni-channel to direct e-commerce. Companies are going to look for people that can integrate their strategies and everything is becoming more integrated. There may not be different channels anymore. They're all blending together. So for people that understand the business, that is going to be critical for these companies, and that's where you should be really focusing on your skillset. If you're a specialist right now, start learning outside of your box and start thinking about the business and how it operates and how everything ties together, because that's what's going to be most important. Stephanie: Love it. Great answer. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Adam. This is fun. Adam: Is great. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.

The Get Options Podcast – Episode 135 Life Updates Kyle: I've been doing some long-distance running. Adam: It. Is. Done!  Launched the new site! BackupSpeaker.com  Good night!  😉  / Taking time off — I think.   News Google Delays mobile indexing to 2021  Changes Jeremy Ward joins Rocket Genius Matt Medeiros leaves Pagely. Heads to CastosHQ…

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt Pt.1 Sunday, July 26, 2020 Matthew 4:17 NKJV 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”… 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. 24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. 25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. ”I believe revival will be sparked and marked by healing, but Not just God supernaturally healing everyone. Believers growing in and learning to receive their healing by the finished work of Jesus and in turn flowing in the power that is available to them to from the finished work to heal others. This will spark revival and lead to true awakening. When I say healing in this sense I’m talking about healing, deliverance, miracles, etc... The signs that Jesus said would follow believers who... well believed.” Beyond a reasonable doubt is a legal standard of proof required to validate a criminal conviction in our legal systems. It is a higher standard of proof than the balance of probabilities (commonly used in civil matters) and is usually reserved for criminal matters where what is at stake, someone’s liberty, is considered more serious and therefore deserving of a higher threshold. This phrase kept coming to me over the last couple of weeks as I’ve been thinking on the subject of healing. It is not that difficult to convince most believers that Jesus healed the sick while He was on the earth. The more difficult questions are; Does He still heal? Who does He heal? How does He heal? From what does He heal? Is divine healing for today? This is what I am going to attempt to establish, from a biblical standpoint, prove the following beyond a reasonable doubt; Healing is for today. Healing is always God’s will. The authority and power to heal has been given to every believer. Today we are going to establish some foundation. We must be willing to repent. Metanoia: literally means to change your mind. Not just to think different thoughts, but to change your entire thought process by changing what you believe about reality. For most believers, repentance is asking for forgiveness of sin because you are sorry for your actions. We were taught that to repent is to turn from sin. In reference to sin, repentance is thinking about the sin differently. Turning from sin is the fruit of repentance. “Re” means to go back. “Pent” refers to top, like penthouse is the top floor of a building. Means to go back to the original way of thinking, to God’s perspective on reality. Repentance means to go back to God’s perspective on reality. It means to return to our original way of thinking which was God’s way of thinking. (Adam) It means come “up” to God’s original design for your way of thinking. Going back to God’s perspective on reality and living as if we really believe it. Jesus said, “repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand” The focus of repentance is to change our way of thinking until the reality of His Kingdom fills our thought process. Romans 12:2 NKJV 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. AMP 2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be [a]transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind… TPT 2 Stop imitating the ideals and opinions of the culture around you, but be inwardly transformed by the Holy Spirit through a total reformation of how you think…. Transformed; from the Greek word meaning “metamorphosis.” Refers to an internal transformation that leads to an external manifestation. When we change the way we think about healing it opens us up to receive healing. Remember, Perception determines reality. Something can be completely and readily available to me, but if I don't perceive it to be true I can not receive it. Perception vs Perspective. Perception is what you interpret - it is your understanding of a given situation, person, or object. It is the meaning you assign to any given stimulus. Perspective is your point of view - it's the lens you see the world through and determines how you view yourself, others, and everything else around you. It’s fair to say, your perspective will determine your perception and your perception will determine your reality. If my perspective on healing is based on my experience, lack of experience, negative experience, secular teaching, cessationist teaching, etc… my perception of healing may be that it is not for today or its only by God’s choice or… fill in the blank. Then I will not have the faith to pursue healing for myself or anyone else. Why? Because my perspective (the lens I'm looking through) is distorted so my perception (my personal understanding) of healing is it may or may not happen so my pursuit of healing is passive. If my perspective (the lens looking through) has been transformed, not conformed to the world any longer, but in line with God’s perspective, then my perception of healing will be in agreement with His word which will cause faith to rise within me to actively and aggressively pursue healing for myself and others! This is why it is important that from the beginning of our study we must be willing and open to allow Holy Spirit to identify why we believe what we believe, expose any lies we have believed and reveal truth to replace those lies. (STOP AND PRAY) (In order to make sure our perspective is correct) We must establish a standard by which everything else will be judged. Your experience can not form your belief system. Jesus life and what He did and accomplished is the foundation for everything that we believe. It is where we must put our faith. No matter what we are talking about, Jesus is the reference point. We can not lower the standard of Jesus to explain or justify our lack or results. We must begin to see things through the finished work of Jesus and the example He gave us until our results are raised to His standard. If Jesus is the example, the standard If what we believe does not line up with what He taught and what He demonstrated, then we have believed a lie. If we have believed a lie, we must identify it, reject it and replace it with truth. Is healing a peripheral issue or a central issue to the Gospel of The Kingdom? In 37 recorded “miracles” in the Gospels performed by Jesus, 28 of them were physical healing or deliverances! 76%! There are a lot of things that Jesus taught and modeled that we for some reason exclude or dismiss from our lives today. Healing and deliverance chief among them. Healing was a major part of the ministry of Jesus. 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. 24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. 25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. Why did Jesus heal? To establish the dominance of the Kingdom of god. Jesus taught the gospel of The Kingdom. That message releases the Kingdom through miracles! The gospel of salvation is contained in the gospel of the Kingdom. The good news of the kingdom is the proclamation that God’s dominion is in effect now! The message of he Kingdom is the message of the King’s domain that is in effect here and now. Whenever Jesus proclaimed this message message, miracles followed. Jesus understood that there were two conflicting kingdoms at war on the earth; The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of satan. Jesus came with a mandate to restore the dominion of The Kingdom of God. 1 John 3:8 …For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Acts 10:38 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. TPT 38 “Jesus of Nazareth was anointed by God with the Holy Spirit and with great power. He did wonderful things for others and divinely healed all who were under the tyranny of the devil,[a] for God had anointed him. Practically speaking, God’s Kingdom advanced through healing and deliverance. Luke 13:16 Jesus dealing with religious leaders (often its the “religious” that are opposed to the supernatural because it introduces people to a power greater than their own!) said; “So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?” 17 And when He said these things, all His adversaries were put to shame; and all the multitude rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by Him. Matthew 12:28 28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” TPT 28 “On the other hand, if I drive out demons by the power of the Spirit of God, then the end of Satan’s kingdom has come!” To prove that he was the Messiah, the coming king. Healing offers scriptural proof of Jesus’ clear identity as the Messiah. The Savior! In Isaiah 61, the prophet describes the coming Messiah’s healing ministry. Luke 4:18:19 NKJV “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” Luke 4:18–19 TPT “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, and he has anointed me to be hope for the poor, freedom for the brokenhearted, and new eyes for the blind, and to preach to prisoners, ‘You are set free!’ I have come to share the message of Jubilee, for the time of God’s great acceptance has begun.” Luke 19-22 TPT “19 So John dispatched two of his disciples to go and inquire of Jesus. 20 When they came before the Master, they asked him, “Are you the coming Messiah we’ve been expecting, or are we to continue to look for someone else? John the prophet has sent us to you to seek your answer.” 21 Without answering, Jesus turned to the crowd and healed many of their incurable diseases. His miracle power freed many from their suffering. He restored the gift of sight to the blind, and he drove out demonic spirits from those who were tormented. 22 Only then did Jesus answer the question posed by John’s disciples. “Now go back and tell John what you have just seen and heard here today. The blind are now seeing. The crippled are now walking. Those who were lepers are now cured. Those who were deaf are now hearing. Those who were dead are now raised back to life. The poor and broken are given the hope of salvation. John 14:11 TPT 11 Believe that I live as one with my Father and that my Father lives as one with me—or at least, believe because of the mighty miracles I have done. John 10:38 TPT 38 But if you see me doing the beautiful works of God upon the earth, then you should at least believe the evidence of the miracles, even if you don’t believe my words! Then you would come to experience me and be convinced that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” SIDE NOTE; John 10:38 and Acts 10:38 point to the same thing! Jesus, out of His own mouth, said believe because to the miracles you have seen! Healings, miracles, etc…. Proved Jesus was the savior… Correct? Jesus expects us to reveal to the lost He is the savior, correct? Why would Jesus demonstrate one way of proving who He was and then send His followers out to win the lost without the same power can authority. Why would miracles not be needed or used today too prove Jesus is who. He we say He is? “Now we have the Bible”. Why would an atheist believe what the Bible says?

The Henson Trust  Rob: Hey folks! Today we're talking about the Henson Trust and what you need to know, especially if you have a disabled child and you want to protect some of that wealth for them. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I'm joined today by Adam Buss. Adam is a Wealth and Estate Planning Specialist here at Canaccord Genuity. He's been on the show a bunch of times here and we're happy to have him today as well. Let's talk about the Henson Trust. First of all, where does the name originate? Adam: The name Henson Trust originates from a precedent that was created from an Ontario court case. I'm assuming the Henson family, that won their case. That's kind of where it came from. Essentially, it's a fancy name or an easy to know name for a disability trust. Rob: Tell me why they can be useful and how you would see it used in planning. Adam: It's certainly a big advantage. You should use a Henson Trust when, let's say a parent has a disabled child they want to leave money to, but that person's maybe not able to manage their own financial affairs or they're worried that a lump sum of cash might take away that person's disability benefits that they're getting from the government. A Henson Trust is a fully discretionary trust. the parents still need to name a trustee. Now this would be a trust that originates from a will. It would be a testamentary trust. Rob: Not an inter vivos trust. For those of you who didn't know, I was called to the bar. I'm a lawyer actually with my previous career, so I used to dabble in some of this stuff. But anyways Adam, you were saying… Adam: I was saying, it does come down to parents who want to leave money, but they're worried that the government benefits are going to get taken away, or the child can't manage their financial affairs properly. Henson Trust allows all the income to be generated within that trust to be sheltered so it doesn't affect their government benefits going forward. It also means that somebody else is in charge of managing those dollars so that they're well maintained going forward.   Rob: Okay, I have a disabled child and I pass away, for example, and in my will I leave, I set up a trust. I name any trustees I want. I can name my brother or siblings or aunts and uncles, whoever you trust it to kind of look after that pot of money going forward. They then have full discretion as to how and when to pay this sum to the beneficiary. And I assume there can only be one beneficiary for Henson Trust. Adam: It would only be the one individual who qualifies for it through the disability. Rob: Okay, now there's a fully discretionary trust. Money is pulled out from time to time, the income that's earned, that can be invested, the cash itself that can be invested. Adam: That can be invested. Again, it comes down to the investment powers assigned to the trust as a whole, but it would be, invested in a portfolio to generate income, but all that income being generated does not have to be paid to the beneficiary or taxed to that beneficiary on a go forward basis. Rob: And the trust itself, I understand one of the large advantages is the graduated tax rate of the trust, Adam: Yeah, most testamentary trusts have to be taxed at the highest marginal tax rate. But in this case, it gets to be taxed at the normal graduated tax rate as if it was the individual earning the income directly. Rob: A trust is effectively its own legal entity and its own personal tax rate. If the trust makes you know, $10,000 or $20,000 of income that year, it will be treated as $10,000 or $20,000 of income. Not $10,000 or $20,000 plus your income that you're generating outside. You would in theory pay very little tax on that. It is more efficient that way. And then the beneficiaries as well. Now let's talk about setting up an alternative beneficiary for a Henson Trust. Adam: Yes, let's say parents have three different kids. One of them has a disability. They want that individual with the disability to be looked after, but they want the money to flow to their other kids. If that person passes away, they can name alternate beneficiaries, saying if the child, the one with the disability passes away, the money can flow to the other two kids without having to go through other estates along the way. Rob: That's a neat tool, you get the full benefit of a marginal tax rate. You get to create the trust on death. It's a fully discretionary trust and you also have the advantage of not having the income impact your other benefits that you might be getting from the government. Adam: Correct. A huge advantage when it comes to that and often things that we see, maybe overlooked or not properly addressed when we look at estate planning for those families that have somebody who has a disability within it. Check out the videos on disability tax credit, registered disability savings plan, all of those different things we want to look at when we're planning for those with a disability. Rob: Yeah, this is a critical piece of estate planning tool. If you have a child with a qualified disability, this is something you should absolutely, unequivocally consider. Meet with your accountant, meet with your lawyer, meet with a group like us, your advisor, because what's really neat about these trusts is they can be invested, they can be invested with a longer term horizon. And it's really part of a holistic estate plan, especially if you have a child with a disability. Okay, folks. If this interests you, and you'd like to chat a bit more, go to speaktorob.com. We would love to set up a no obligation consultation.

The Disability Tax Credit  Rob: Hey folks! Today, Adam and I are chatting about the DTC, the Disability Tax Credit. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I should introduce my guest here today. Thrilled to have Adam Buss, Wealth and Estate Planning Specialist here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam, thanks for being here. The disability tax credit, how does it apply and what is it exactly? Adam: It's a non refundable tax credit for those who have a qualified disability. And it's basically meant to try to equalize the disadvantages and the added costs that an individual with a qualified disability may face. They've basically given them a little bit of money back on an annual basis. Rob: Okay, that would mean, for example, an adult with a disabled child, right? Adam: It could be an adult with a disabled child, an individual who's above 18 and has a qualified disability. Any of those things, and this is a tax credit that can kind of carry on for your lifetime if you're considered qualified, Rob: and the DTC is attached to that individual with the disability. Adam: It's attached to that social insurance number essentially. Rob: And when they are minor, their parents in theory could or would get the credit. And when they're an adult, potentially they would get the credit on their own. Adam: Yeah. Or even if they're an adult and they have somebody who needs to claim them as a financial dependent. That individual can claim that disability. Rob: Okay.  there's a bunch of different ways a person can be eligible for the DTC, you must meet some of the following criteria. What would some of those be? Adam:  You know, there is substantial criteria. It generally means that if you're blind. You have troubles with certain activities of daily living, and different restrictions. There's quite a lengthy list. Certainly recommend going to the CRA's website to look at the full definitions. But when in doubt, if you have any sort of disability that you think may be qualified, chat with your doctor, chat with your tax professional to see if you can get qualified for the disability tax credit. It's a huge advantage for your income tax return. Rob: And I see here that the disability, the impairment is a prolonged impairment. They're saying it needs to be for an expected continuous period of at least 12 months. Adam: It needs to be long term. I could break my leg and have a reduced lifestyle for the six months or whatever, but it's not long term. To qualify it needs to be something that affects your lifestyle and your life on a long-term basis. Rob: And it must be present substantially all the time, at least 90% of the time. Now the tax credit, does that just reduce your tax or does it reduce your income? And it's $8,000 per year? Adam: That's $8,000 per year, which I believe reduces your income. Again, I'm not an accountant. We always recommend reviewing these items with your tax professional to make sure that it's being properly applied to your situation.  Rob: If you have the DTC, if you have the disability tax credit, then you could check out our other video on this, but you could automatically qualify for the RDSP, is that correct?  Adam: qualifying through the disability tax credit is the prerequisite for qualifying for the RDSP, the registered disability savings plan, which you did a fantastic video on not that long ago that I recommend you check out. Rob: So the RDSP, the really neat thing about that one is, there's a ton of grants and potential bonds, you put a few thousand dollars in... $2,500 a year, and the government will match you $3,500 a year, for example. It's a great savings vehicle. Okay. if you do have the DTC, you're wanting to get the $8,000 tax credit, but you also qualify for the RDSP. make sure to talk to your advisor, a guy like me. And for that you can go to www.speaktorob.com and you can find out all about the wonderful ways to structure an RDSP, and how to actually build a portfolio for that.

Why You Should Get Life Insurance    Rob: Why should you get life insurance? Today I'm chatting with you with none other than our Senior Wealth and Estate Planner, Mr. Adam Buss. First of all, tell me about the different types of life insurance that exist. Obviously, the question today is why should you own life insurance?   Adam: Well, there's two major types of insurance that we'll kind of cover. There is term insurance and there is permanent insurance and there are a variety of different contracts under each of those. A term insurance generally is meant for those who want to replace their income, to make sure that their surviving spouse is taken care of, their families are taken care, and their debts paid off if they pass away. And then there is permanent insurance. Permanent insurance is designed for a long-term need, leaving money for your estate, your beneficiaries, charitable donations covering large tax bills such as a family cottage, as an example. These are a few of the different types of things we often see.   Rob: Okay, now why should you have life insurance?   Adam: Why not? That's probably the better question. But it's probably the most selfless thing you can purchase in your lifetime is to make sure that your family's taken care of in the event that you pass away. Let's say, Rob, you had an ATM in your house that spit out $60,000 a year. Would you put insurance on it?   Rob: Absolutely.   Adam: Who wouldn't put insurance on it? You are that ATM. You are the one that has that earning power every year. Whether it's $40-100k dollars a year of salary, if you were to pass away prematurely, that just disappears. Who wouldn't want to make sure that that continue to make sure that your family's taken care of financially?   Rob: Now what about someone who says that, you know what, I'm just going to save that money and I'm just going to of a self-insure. Why would you not want to do that?   Adam: Some people may have a large amount of wealth and be self-insured, but you know, do they want to transfer that wealth to their family? Or do they want to have to spend it all just to afford to put food on the table and have nothing left for their family long-term to accomplish their goals.   Rob: Okay. Let's start with the term insurance. Term insurance as I understand, is effectively renting, right?   Adam: Precisely. Yeah.   Rob: Who would that typically be suited for?   Adam: That would be suited for, again, anybody who's looking to replace their income coverage, shorter term need – you are renting the coverage; therefore, it is cheaper than owning it long term. It is fairly affordable, and a great way to protect your family, while also covering your debt in a very affordable manner.   Rob: Okay. And then the permanent coverage, there's a few different types of that as well?   Adam: There are a few different types. There's the universal life and participating life. The idea is that it's a whole life, meaning it's around for your entire life. It is guaranteed to pay out at some point in time, hopefully many years down the road. But it is there to ensure that the long-term needs are there as a protection. I like to consider it a part of your investment component. It is a piece of the puzzle. You're investing in that long-term growth of that policy.   Rob: We do that here. It is part of the complete holistic investment picture. And if you're not sure about that, please don't hesitate to go to speaktorob.com and to book a consultation. Let's get back to this. The whole life that pays when I die. Correct?   Adam: Correct.    Rob: Does it also pay if my wife dies before?   Adam: It depends on how you structure the policy. You can have one just on your life. You can have a joint one with your spouse. Often for those for estate planning purposes, we're going to set it up as a joint last to die policy. There, both husband and wife are insured on one policy and it pays out when the second person passes away. Full Video & Blog Article on Financial Help for Widows – Top Things to do After Spouse Passes Away    Rob: What about a joint first to die policy? When would you be using that?   Adam: Those are often used for making sure that either surviving spouse is looked after financially, and there's money to pay off debt. Those are often things that we kind of see that when the first person passes away that those needs are looked after.   Rob: Okay. And the joint first to die versus the joint last to die, which one would be more expensive?   Adam: First to die would be more expensive.   Rob: Alright. Now we're insured. We're protected until we die. Now the permanent insurance you talked about – we talked earlier about cottages and stuff. Give me an example of how insurance could be potentially used to protect a cottage, or to make sure that a cottage can stay in the family.   Adam: Sure, great question. Often cottages have a large capital gain at the time when the second person passes away. Let's say you bought it for $100,000 20 years ago and 30 years from now it's going to be worth half a million dollars. That's a $400,000 gain in value that the government is going to want their share of tax on. Do you want to leave your kids a financial burden by having to either get a mortgage on that property just to pay the tax bill or having to sell the property just to pay the tax bill? Often a cheaper way is to use a permanent life insurance policy to pay out to the estate to pay that tax bill. Full Video & Blog Article on Inheritance Tax  That way the family cottage and all the memories that go with it can stay in the family   Rob: Because otherwise, if mom and dad pass away and the cottage goes to a younger child who might not have the net worth to be able to pay the tax bill, because the tax bill's payable. Whether or not the cottage is sold or not, the tax bill is payable.   Adam: Yeah.   Rob: It is a deemed disposition. I mean, whether or not they want to put a mortgage on it, maybe they can't get a mortgage on it. All of a sudden now you're left with a situation where, you've got to sell the cottage because you can't pay for it.   Adam: That's right.   Rob: Now what about individuals who built up assets and value through real estate?   Adam: That'd be a very similar concept. We do come across a lot of clients that have large rental portfolios, where they bought them at a great deal. They've grown in value over time and now there's a very large capital gain at the time of death because the real estate has also grown in value. They've also depreciated along the way to help offset some of their income tax on annual basis. Those are all things that we want to look at to come up with a solution, which is often life insurance as a way to create the liquidity for the estate instead of a having to go and sell the entire rental portfolio or have to go and get the additional unnecessary debt on that.   Rob: Okay. The one you rent, a term insurance, and the one you own permanently permanent insurance, whole life, et cetera. A lot of times this will be used in tax planning, if I understand correctly, right?   Adam: Yeah. Often one of the overall most overlooked, but most valuable tax tools is using a whole life insurance policy as a tax strategy. Those policies grow tax exempt behind the scenes. It's a great place to park money, surplus non-registered money using as a strategy within the corporation, which is a much bigger topic. But those are things that we work with our clients on a daily basis, coming up with the right strategies to put in place to save them the most tax.   Rob: It's not just to protect the risk of you or me dying. It's not just to pay a tax bill potentially or debt. That's not just to make sure the cottage stays in the family. It could also be used as a tax planning tool.   Adam: Exactly. Is absolutely a tax tool as well.   Rob: Okay. Adam, real great to chat with you. We appreciate the time today talking about life insurance and why you should have life insurance. If you do have further questions on this aspect or anything involved in financial planning, please go to speaktorob.com and schedule a free, no obligation consultation.  

How RESP Grants Work  Rob: Hey guys, today we're talking about the RESP grant, how it works, when it makes sense, how much you can get, what the limits are, and how to take advantage of it. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. To my right, your left is Adam Buss, Senior Wealth and Estate Planner here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam, we're thrilled to have you. Thanks for coming in.   Adam: Thanks for having me again.   Rob: Alright, RESP grants. Adam, first of all, how do they work? What's the basic percentage and what do you get when you make an RESP contribution? Or first of all, what is an RESP?   Adam: Whoa, that's a great question. So Registered Education Savings Plan, the grants is kind of the whole concept as to why you should put money into an RESP. You get 20% of free government money added to the RESP account for every contribution that you make.   Rob: All right, so I put 1000 bucks in…   Adam: They'll throw on $200 extra for you, added to the pot to use towards future education.   Rob: Do I get that as cash or does that go into the account?   Adam: Goes into the account.   Rob: Okay, I knew that. Just testing!   Adam: But it's good. But, of course there's maximums. They're not going to say, oh, okay, well Rob put a hundred thousand dollars into the RESP, let's give him 20 grand. That's not how it works.   Rob: There's a maximum per year.   Adam: There's a maximum per year. And there's also a lifetime maximum.   Rob: The maximum per year is…    Adam: Is 20% of up to $2,500 contribution.    Rob: $500 in grants.   Adam: $500 per year. However, you can make up for past unused contribution room of up to $5,000 that you put in, the government will throw in $1,000.   Rob: All right, so that's per child.   Adam: Per child.   Rob: I'm lucky I have four kids. I could in theory put $10,000 into my RESP per year and I would get $2,000 of grants every single year.   Adam: Correct.   Rob: And if I forgot to do it last year, I could do $20,000 this year,   Adam: Absolutely.   Rob: Okay. And I'd get $4,000.   Adam: But if you decided to do $21,000, they would not give you any additional grant money on that extra thousand dollars.   Rob: Now how would that be set up for me if I wanted to do it that way. That would likely be set up as a RESP family plan.   Adam: Correct.   Rob: We put all the four kids – Alexandre, Arielle, Angéline, Aubrie – all in one plan and then they all get to use the grants effectively.   Adam: Yeah. The best part is any of the children can use that grant money when they go to post-secondary education.   Rob: If one of your, kids decides they don't want to go to post-secondary education, you don't lose that grant.   Adam: Don't lose it.   Rob: Very interesting. I'm sorry, go ahead.   Adam: Yeah, sorry. I did mention there is a lifetime maximum as well. It's up to $7,200 of grant money per child.   Rob: Okay.   Adam:So they do cap it.   Rob: Oh, okay. So $7,500, that'd be like $37,500 of contributions. Okay. So that's quite a bit of contribution amount. Yeah. All right. Clearly this can't be tax free, right?   Adam: It's after tax dollars that go into the RESP account.   Rob: Okay.   Adam: You pay tax on it and then you put the money into it. Unlike in RRSP, which is often confused. And when you take the money out down the road is when it's taxable as withdrawn. So your money you put in is withdrawn, tax free. The government money and any income or growth has been generated in the account is taxable to the beneficiary when withdrawn.   Rob: We always like to say the grants and the growth.   Adam: Grants and the growth.   Rob: The grants and the growth are taxed. In theory, the way this works out is, in my mind anyways, is hopefully the kids have a much lower income bracket than you do. And when they're pulling it out, most of it is likely tax-free.   Adam: Yeah. Ideally they're in university, they're poor students and don't have necessarily that income level. And they also probably have additional write-offs from education credits.   Rob: Right, right.   Adam: Essentially, they hopefully will pay as close to zero taxes on that money as possible.   Rob: Okay. It's the first year, my son's in university, we submit a confirmation of enrollment. This could be for pretty much any post-secondary education.   Adam: Yeah. There is a list on the government of Canada website as to qualify post-secondary education institutions. It was a little bit more limited when the program came out, but it's pretty wide variety now, including some international schools as well.   Rob: International, some trades.   Adam: Yeah.   Rob: Some traditional universities, colleges, those are all candidates.   Adam: Fairly flexible.   Rob: And I know there's a limit in your first 13 weeks.   Adam: I think it's $5,000 if I remember correct.   Rob: $5,000 bucks your first 13 weeks, and after that effectively the sky's the limit. Let's talk about the Canada learning bond and how that works. So that would be for lower income families?   Adam: Yeah. So that is additional money that they throw into the pot. It has nothing to do with your contributions, so it doesn't even matter if you throw any money into it. They will add money to the RESP free of charge based on your income level.   Rob: If you open the RESP,   Adam: If you open the RESP, and they'll continue to do so and as long as your family income is within a certain level.   Rob: How long can I contribute for my kids RESPs, does it end at some point? Can I contribute all the way until they're 18?   Adam: Generally, you would contribute to the end of the year that they turned 17 because that is the last year that you can qualify for the grant money. Really you can contribute beyond that. But what's the point if you're not going to get the government money?   Rob: Absolutely. How long do these things last? I imagine I have to pull the money out at some point.   Adam: There are different restrictions in place. It depends as to when the plan was established, how old the kids are. Those are all different things that we want to work with our clients on. Hopefully take out the money early on when the first child goes to school, and that way we can close it later on. Full Video & Blog Article on How an RESP Works, and RESP Withdrawal Rules    Rob: It's basically a really neat tax arbitrage strategy.   Adam: Absolutely is great.   Rob: Yeah. What happens if none of my kids go to university?   Adam: Okay, well if none of your kids go to school, you still get your money back. You essentially get all the growth and income that was generated on your money. All the government money goes back to the government. That's only fair. Your kids didn't go to school. There is a penalty that the government does charge, which is approximately 20% which equates to the growth on the government money as they put in 20%... anything that you take out and you get your money back, tax free, any income is you can either roll to your RRSP if you have the enough room in your RRSP, or where you take it out as taxable income.   Rob: The RESP grant, pretty neat stuff. Makes sense for a lot of families out there. Some of them super important to consider too. I would say be an important part of a financial plan, right? When you're building a financial plan, you want to factor in this and any other education goals, right?   Adam: Yeah. If the goal is to help the kids pay for post-secondary education costs is a fantastic program to do so.   Rob: All right. Adam, thanks so much for joining us today. Adam Buss, Senior Wealth and Estate Planner here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. If you have questions on this or your portfolio, go to speaktorob.com, and book a no obligation consultation.

Networking with Local Nonprofits in Central Virginia Read the Transcript Hugh Ballou: This is a special edition today of The Nonprofit Exchange. I am attending a nonprofit trade show and networking event, Central Virginia Business Coalition. I'm here with Heather Alto. Heather, what's your vision for this event today? Heather Alto: Basically, our vision for this event, we decided to put about a community event focused on nonprofit organizations because they don't really have the avenue to get out and do bigger business expos due to the cost. We wanted to have a one-stop shop where people could come in and learn about the nonprofits in our area. A lot of this is about awareness, but also it's a place where people could bring donations today, whether it's food or coats or household items. Anything like that. This is the place to do it. A one-stop area where you can learn, volunteer, and donate. Hugh: We've just gotten acquainted. I'm going to go around and visit with some of the nonprofits here. Thank you, Heather. Heather: Thank you. Hugh: I'm going to let them tell a little bit about what they do and why they're doing it. Here's Tracy. Tell them who you are and what this organization is that you represent. Tracye Dixon: I'm Tracey Dixon. I'm executive director at Lynchburg Daily Bread. Hugh is my friend from the rotary club. My real job is a soup kitchen in downtown Lynchburg. We are looking for canned sweet potatoes, green beans, and gravy for our Thanksgiving meal. If anybody would like to help with that, we would love and appreciate it. Hugh: Tracey is a legend here. She's very active. We happen to be in the city that's got some of the highest poverty in the commonwealth of Virginia. Tracey: It's true. Hugh: We have a lot of hungry people. She and her team and a whole lot of volunteers are very active all the time. Tracey: Every day. We are open every day of the year. We'll be open on Christmas because people need to eat on Christmas, too. Grateful for your support, Hugh. Thanks for being here. Hugh: Blessings. We have people watching from all over, wondering what's going on here. So we're going to go to another one. Hope for today. Help and Hope. Tell us who you are and what your organization is. This is our first time we've met. What is this organization, and who are you? Sam: This is World Hope. I'm Sam. Sarah Johnson: I'm Sarah. Sam: And we are a humanitarian organization raising money to sponsor kids, get them education, clean water, clothing. We help build churches and schools, bring clean water to villages. Sarah: Our biggest thing that we do is child sponsorship. People can rescue a child out of poverty and get them education, clean food, and water for $35 a month. We have children in over 20 countries. 11,000 children right now. Hugh: How many? Sarah: I think it's between 10 and 11,000 children in our programs around the world. Hugh: Around the world? Sarah: Yes. Hugh: We're in central Virginia. This is Lynchburg. We are reaching out to the world. SynerVision Leadership Foundation supports charities all over the world. We support with the infrastructure of leadership development, board development, funding. I'm going around the trade show and giving you some exposure. This is a show we do every week called The Nonprofit Exchange. Thanks for sharing your ideas. Somebody somewhere will know somebody in one of your areas. Where do they find you? what's the URL? Sarah: WorldHelp.net Hugh: WorldHelp.net. Thank you for sharing. Let's see who else is here and what they're doing. I talked to you all before. These couple charming ladies. Tell me about this charity. It's really special. Claire Parker Foundation. Bethany Egland: I'm Bethany, and I'm the director of programs and family services at the Claire Parker Foundation. We support families that have children with cancer and have partnered hospitals all across the region. We're in 15 different ones from Tennessee to Texas, which is pretty incredible. We have different programs that we provide from the beginning of the diagnosis to the end. A bunch of different programs to keep kids occupied in the hospital and to support families through the journey financially, emotionally, and even to the end, if they end up losing a child, we have support in that areas as well. Hugh: We have wonderful gift kits here for the children and families. Bethany: This is their care box they get right after diagnosis. This is our birthday box to celebrate birthdays. They get a banner, a birthday pillowcase, and a gift card to Amazon. Hugh: Where can they find Claire Parker on the Internet? Bethany: ClaireParkerFoundation.org. We're on Facebook and Instagram. Hugh: I just captured somebody you may know also. Jessica Arrington. What's the organization that you work with? What do you do there? Jessica Arrington: Patrick Henry Family Services. I am the volunteer coordinator. I help with all our program ministries to make sure we have the support we need and our mission and vision stay going.   Hugh: What do you do? Who do you do it for? Jessica: Volunteer coordinator for Patrick Henry Family Services. I work with all the volunteers, with every program ministry. Hugh: Tell us about Patrick Henry. Jessica: We have several program ministries such as Save Family for Children, expanded families, Vision 30, that makes sure every child is in a safe home, in a safe environment wrapped around by the community by 2030. We believe that can happen with your help, partners, agencies, churches, and families. We also have our Hat Creek Camp and our counseling services and so much more. Hugh: Jessica is also a friend from the local rotary. She's been on our show before with the program Power of We. Jessica: Power of We Lynchburg. Hugh: Let's go look at your banner for Patrick Henry. Who's this person? Jessica: This is Nicolette. Nicolette: Nice to meet you, Facebook. Jessica:  She works with our girls' and boys' homes. We have Lisa. Hugh: What does Lisa do? Lisa: I'm the case manager for residential care.   Hugh: And this is Patrick Henry Family Services. They can find you online at PatrickHenry.org. Thank you. Here's Billy. Billy was on The Nonprofit Exchange recently. Billy told the story about the sports outreach. They know your story. Thank you. Here is Humankind. Do you want to share? Tell us who you are and what Humankind is. Tiffany Rodriguez: I am Tiffany Rodriguez. I am in the treatment foster care. Humankind has over 20 different programs. We are community outreach. Our main office is here in Lynchburg, but we also service other areas throughout Virginia. We have anywhere from counseling, treatment, foster care, community outreach. We work with kids who have autism. There is also a daycare. This is one of our new treatment foster care case workers. This is Ashley, and we are very happy to add her to our team. We are excited to be part of this opportunity as well. Thanks so much for having us. Hugh: Where can people find Humankind online? Tiffany: If they go to Humankind.org, then you'll be able to see all of our resources that we have. If you have any specific questions, you can always email us. Hugh: It's a worthy work place. Thank you for sharing with us. Why don't you tell people who you are and what is this organization that you represent? Sandra Bermudez: I'm Sandra Bermudez. I am representing Braley & Thompson Foster Care in central Virginia. We have over nine offices in the state of Virginia. My office is in Lynchburg. We have been in business for over 30 years in Virginia for children and families. We work with children 0-17 and provide foster families. If you are interested in becoming a foster family, you can visit us at BraleyThompson.com.   Hugh: Love it. Thank you for being here today. Here's one called Well of Grace. Who is this back here? Susan. What is this organization, and what does it do? Susan: Well of Grace helps ladies who have had breast surgery. We help with items their insurance may not pay or does not totally cover. That could be a lymphedema sleeve, whatever they need. We help them get those items.   Hugh: This is a lot of good people doing good work here. Where can they find Well of Grace online? Susan: They can find it at WellofGrace.org. They can also go through Absolute Perfection, who are the people who support our nonprofit. Hugh: WellofGrace.org. Thank you, Susan. Amazement Square. I've been to your organization with grandchildren. Tell them who you are. Jamie Shetley: Sure. I'm Jamie Shetley. I am the manager of donor and member relations of Amazement Square. We are here today talking about the 50% of work that we do that people don't know about, which is outside of the museum. We are talking about sponsorships for school programs. We are talking about our new initiative, Amazing Children Smart Beginnings, which is sponsored with a grant from the Institute of Museum and Library Services. We are talking about our new education center. All sorts of things going on. Hugh: Amazement Square is in what used to be a old warehouse. One time, Lynchburg was the second wealthiest city in the country. We had a lot of tobacco and leather warehouses in town, which are now dormant. Now, there's a bunch of new things. One of them is quite amazing. I have been there twice at least with grandchildren, which was an excuse for me to play. It's quite an amazing thing. Sometime, Lynchburg Symphony will do something musical with you. Jamie: Our new education center is open now. It has a huge exhibit space. It can seat over 350 people. We have the space for it. We just want people to know this space is available. Hugh: Where can people find you online? Jamie: AmazementSquare.org. Hugh: Tell us who you are and what do you represent? Susan Campbell: I'm Susan Campbell, the executive director of the Blue Ridge Pregnancy Center. This is Julia and Julie. They're both on staff at BRPC. We are a crisis pregnancy center. We help the woman who is in crisis and in need for options and counseling for unplanned pregnancy. Hugh: A lot of important work. Where can people find you online? Susan: BRPCFriends.org. We are located right next to Lynchburg General Hospital, one street over on Thompson Drive. Hugh: Thank you. There is quite a few amazing people doing amazing stuff. This is Elise. tell them who you are and what the organization is about. Elise Spontarelli: Elise Spontarelli with Vector Space. We are a community maker space. We have 12,000 square feet of tools: woodworking, blacksmithing, metalworking, 3D printers, laser cutters, sewing, all the tools. We do membership for adults so you can use those tools. We do safety training, and then we set you free on the tools. We do workshops to teach the tools. We do STEM education with high schoolers. Some cool projects. Hugh: I only found out recently about maker spaces. Describe what a maker space is. It's quite amazing. Elise: Thank you. It's a space for people to collaborate. A lot of folks have maybe a woodshop at home or some welding equipment or a 3D printer on their desk, but nobody has all of the tools together. Our members are everyone from engineers to fine artists. We have teachers and entrepreneurs and all sorts of folks with different backgrounds and different skills, coming together and learning together and teaching each other. A big part of our membership is member meet-ups and peer learning. Folks are teaching the skills they know and learning from other people new skills. We bring those together in cool ways. And teaching kids how to use these tools, too. Hugh: They're super cool. It's part craft, part art. Where can people find Vector Space online? Elise: Vector-Space.org. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. If they want to come out and see us, the first Friday of every month, we do an open house from 5-8pm. Hugh: We're in Lynchburg, Virginia. Every first Friday, it's a happening place downtown with art galleries and the craft space and maker space is beyond that. Thank you for sharing. Elise: Thanks, Hugh. Hugh: That's quite an amazing entity. Let's find somebody who's free. Hey, there. I've seen you before. But I forgot. Can you stand up and talk? She has healthy options. Everyone has sugar-loaded candy. Tell people who you are and what is it you're doing here? What is this organization? Jane Massey: I am Jane Massey with the Alzheimer's Association in Central and Western Virginia. This is Ginny Simmons. Ginny serves on our walk planning committee. The Alzheimer's Association is a nonprofit that is trying to find a cure for Alzheimer's. That is basically our vision: a world without Alzheimer's Disease. Hugh: Say your vision. Jane: A world without Alzheimer's Disease. Hugh: I was just working on vision statements for my nonprofit. It's really hard. That is a picture: a world without Alzheimer's. Here's a lesson right here. A vision is a picture of what it looks like. You can say that without reading it. Jane: Yes, I can. It's a really important vision statement. The Alzheimer's Association, we are the largest nonprofit organization in the world providing research. We are only #3 behind the Chinese government and the U.S. government in funding research. Our goal is to fight a cure, sustainable ways to live with the disease by 2025. We have an aggressive format going on. Our goal is to do it. We currently provide international research as well as local programs and services. One of our biggest events to raise awareness and funds is our walk to end Alzheimer's. That's where Ginny comes in. Ginny is our logistics chair. Want to share your experience about being on the committee? Ginny Simpson: Sure. I have been on the committee now with the Alzheimer's Association for probably 15+ years or so. I've been very involved. I don't have a personal connection, but I professionally work with those affected with dementia and Alzheimer's. It's been a joy and a pleasure working and serving the community trying to find a cure for this terrible disease. Hugh: There are probably walks all over the country. Ginny: Yes, there are. Hugh: Where can people find out more about Alzheimer's Association? Jane: Alz.org. One of the things I do want to share that a lot of people don't realize is that the Alzheimer's Association not only covers and manages Alzheimer's, which is the most common form of dementia, but we cover all dementias. We have an award-winning website where you can find information about vascular dementia, Parkinson's disease because those are forms of dementia. Hugh: If people don't know if they have something, can they or their family go and find out? Jane: Yes, they can go to the website. One of the things, if somebody is concerned about having some forgetfulness that is affecting your daily life, the first thing we recommend is seeing a doctor. Sometimes, it's not Alzheimer's. It can be something as easy as an infection, or it might be some drug interactions that are not working properly. That can cause memory issues. It's really important to get that checked out. Hugh: Great, thank you. Go to Alz.org. Easy. Thank you for your good work. Who are you? Here is their banner. Tell us who you are. What is this organization about? Andy Cohen: I'm Andy Cohen. I'm the executive director of Harmony Day Support. We have services for adults with disabilities all throughout the day so they can live as autonomously as we do every single day. We're excited about the opportunity to help them grow socially, academically, athletically, spiritually, all over. We have about 9,600 individuals we serve here locally. We are in the process of implementing and adding new services daily. Hugh: Is this a local organization? Andy: Local. Hugh: We're in central Virginia. You might know somebody here. It's HarmonyDaySupport.org. Thank you. Tell us who you are. What is this organization? Why does it exist? Adam Pavao: My name is Adam Pavao. I am the executive director of foster care services at Impact Living Services. We exist to serve youth aging out of foster care and youth in foster care. We're a relatively young nonprofit. Started in 2012 just in Lynchburg, Virginia to work with those kids aging out. Youth aging out of foster care have really bad outcomes. One in four are incarcerated before 21. One in five are homeless within a year. 71% of girls get pregnant before the age of 21. Less than 4% graduate from college. We have apartments and town homes we place them in. We get connected to employment and education and teach them how to be adults. We also have a foster care program where we work with teens in foster care. That population has a hard time getting placed with families. We believe kids should be with families and kids should have connections. We work with those families to train them, to provide support to them to make sure those kids and teens are in the home. We have offices in Lynchburg, Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Richmond. Hugh: Those are Virginia cities. This is a nice banner they have. A little bit about what they do here. What is the URL for your website? Adam: It is ImpactLivingServices.org. Hugh: Thank you, sir. Allison Zuba: These are some of the best nonprofit leaders in Lynchburg. Hugh: Who are you? Allison: I'm Allison Zuba. Hugh: Who are you? Linda Bright: I'm Linda Bright, the program manager for Bedford Ride. Vicky Craig: I'm Vicky Craig, the public relations coordinator for the Central Virginia Alliance for Community Living, your area agency on aging. Hugh: Whoa, my peer group. Allison: I'm Allison Zuba. I'm the executive director at the Adult Care Center, the best place to spend your day in Lynchburg. Hugh: Adult Care Center. Do you all work together? Or I just happened to catch you together. Allison: We don't get to work together a lot, but we certainly support each other's organizations. Hugh: Tell us about Adult Care Center. Tell us about CVACL. Allison: The Adult Care Center has folks who need a little extra help and still want to live at home, but have a great place to be during the day. Folks come to us Monday through Friday, play games, have great food, and enjoy themselves immensely. Laughter is the key to the day here. Hugh: My wife might be calling you. Tell us about this organization. Linda: Bedford Ride, we are a program of the Central Virginia Alliance for Community Living. We do non-emergency medical training and transportation for Bedford residents who are unable to drive. All of our drivers are carefully vetted volunteers. We have over 90 volunteers, 20 wheelchair accessible vans, and five cars. Hugh: We are in central Virginia. Bedford is the next town over. Look at this. Be a Santa to a Senior. Vicky: Right now, at the Central Virginia Alliance for Community Living, we are doing a Be a Santa to a Senior program. That is when we provide Christmas presents for our clients and others throughout the area. We do need people to come and take our tags. This is how we provide Christmas to seniors who otherwise wouldn't have Christmas. Hugh: Where can they find you online? Vicky: CVACL.org. Hugh: And where can they find Adult Care Center? Allison: AdultCareCenter.org. Linda: And Bedford Ride is BedfordRide-CVACL.org. Hugh: Those are places you can find these ladies. Do you want to talk about Meals on Wheels? People have heard of Meals on Wheels but may not know much about it. Tell people who you are and what you're representing here. Janet Lomax: I'm Janet Lomax. I am representing on Meals on Wheels of greater Lynchburg. Hugh: People may have heard about it, but they don't know what Meals on Wheels is about. Janet: Meals on Wheels delivers hot meals every day, Monday through Friday, to home-bound individuals who cannot prepare a nutritious meal for themselves or who do not have a person who can prepare nutritious meals for them. This Meals on Wheels delivers those meals for them, filling the gap for them. Hugh: We do have a pretty large need. We have a segment under the poverty line in Lynchburg, don't we? Janet: Yes, we do. Hugh: Where can people find you online? Janet: They can to go MealsLynchburg.org. Hugh: Thank you for standing up and telling your story. Let's see who I haven't interviewed yet. Tell people who you are and what's this organization you're representing. Teresa: Thank you so much. I'm Teresa Davis. I'm the communications director at Gleaning for the World. We are located in Concord, Virginia. We focus on disaster relief and humanitarian aid locally here in Central Virginia, and nationally and internationally as well. Hugh: Gleaning for the World. What is it about? What do you do? Teresa: Our mission statement is to share the love of God at home and around the world. That's what we're doing. We're sharing God's love by meeting tangible needs to people in need. Hugh: Like what? Give me an instance. Teresa: For example, right now, we have a truck on the way to California to help the people staying in shelters because of the Kincaid wildfire. This morning, they are back at the warehouse loading a truck headed to Jordan to bring clothes and basic materials to the refugees there. Hugh: Wow. Where can people find you online? Teresa: GFTW.org. Hugh: Thank you for sharing your story. What are you doing here? Connect Networking Group. Who are you, and what is this organization? Elizabeth Snyder: I'm Elizabeth Snyder. I am with the Connect Lynchburg Group. I like to say we are the Angie's List of Lynchburg because we have our businesses that we refer each other out and we do networking. The reason why we're here today is we also do a lot of work in the community. That's part of being a member of Connect. We do community work. Hugh: Love it. Where can people find you online? Elizabeth: We have a website. We're on Facebook. Our web URL is LynchburgConnect.com. Hugh: I think I've made the rounds. Thank you for coming by! Tell others the story of some of these great nonprofits and what they're doing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

HEB | HEPP Pensions   Rob: If you're a healthcare provider in Manitoba, this is for you. I'm Rob Tétrault, Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group from robtetrault.com, here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I'm here with Adam Buss here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam, thanks for coming today.   Adam: Thanks for having me, Rob.   Rob: You are the pension expert, so I'm super thrilled to have you here. You've seen a ton of these. We're going to have a good time today talking about these Manitoba health care provider pensions. All right Adam, first of all – HEB and HEPP. A bit of a tongue twister.   Adam: It certainly is. And I would view those as rather interchangeable.   Rob: Yeah?   Adam: A lot of people deal with the HEB, the health care employees' benefit side on a regular basis. The one that we often work with is HEPP, which is health employees' pension plan. It really comes from the exact same place, but we're actually dealing with the pension plan side of the business majority of the time.   Rob: Okay. So these are health care employees in Manitoba. They have a pension. What kind of pension do they have?   Adam: This is a defined benefit pension plan. So there's two different types of plans out there, a defined contribution plan where you put the money in and choose kind of the investments that you want to deal with. And there is a defined benefit, which is you still have to contribute, but it results in a, you know, a guaranteed payment stream for the rest of your life, which is what this is a defined benefit.   Rob: Okay. So with respect to these pensions, how are they calculated? I mean, I know that t's probably a tough question, but I assume there's a formula with respect to years of service income.   Adam: Yeah. So it's years of service. It's generally your best five years. Some plans are the best 10 years of your income, multiplied by a pension factor. In this case the health employees' pension plan is a 1.5% up to YMPE and I know you're going to ask what is YMPE...,   Rob: That's the song, right? Where they go …   Adam: It's not the YMCA song, but they do get confused rather often. YMPE is yearly maximum pensionable earnings.   Rob: Okay.   Adam: That is basically the number is to what level of earnings do you pay Canada pension plan premiums on?   Rob: Okay. Okay. Right now, that would be…?   Adam: $57,400 I think is the magic number this year. It does change every year. So based on your pension, the health employees' pension plan is a lesser amount up to that. And then over that amount, it's a 2% factor.   Rob: Once we get one and a half of the first $56 K and 2% above that.   Adam: Exactly.   Rob: And that's your factor. That's multiplied by your years of service   Adam: Correct, you do years of service, times the average pensionable income and that equals your guaranteed payment stream for life. There's added complexities. When you get your pension options, it's going to be 10 different options. Okay, well what happens if you choose a guaranteed survivor option, you know, 100% or a single life or a 66% to survivor or you want, you know, a 10 year guarantee period. All of these different options effect that number as to what is going to be in it.   There's probably a baseline and then they adjust, whether or not you're guaranteeing it or you're not.   If you did the simple math, that's called a straight life, which is basically just for one person saying, okay, this is your payment stream guaranteed for the rest of your life. If you want to add the bonus aspects of leaving money for a surviving spouse or in a state for the beneficiaries, that's where that number starts to go down a little bit.   Rob: Okay. Now, if I'm an employee, how do I know when I can retire? Is there a formula for like a magic number or something like that?   Adam: Yeah, most of these plans do have a magic 80, which should be once your years of service plus your age equals the total number of 80. That's when you generally can retire without an unreduced pension. Some plans also have a minimum age of 55 years, which is when you're allowed to start drawing from your pension. Every plan is slightly different, but we certainly want to a work with our clients to identify what that looks like.   Rob: Okay. Let's say I'm retiring in a year or two. And I'm a little stressed about these options. What should I do, and how do I know what option is for me? And is there are another option.   Adam: There certainly are many options. All we do with our clients is we work with our them to pick A, the best option, which isn't necessarily A, but it's trying to determine what is the best option on their pension for what their needs are. Hopefully you're coming to us to kind of navigate what some of those options are. There is also the option of taking a commuted value for your pension.   Rob: Now that's interesting.   Adam: Yeah. So commuted value is the lump sum of money behind the scenes that is being exchanged for that guaranteed payment for the rest of your life. So, Rob, you have the option of transferring that commuted value out of the pension plan into your own investment choices. And then you get to pick as to how that money's invested. When do you want to draw from it? Do you want to take more upfront in more and less than the later years, you have a lot more options available to you and it's guaranteed to leave any money that's left to your beneficiaries.   Rob: Basically, you own those assets.   Adam: You own that money, not the pension plan.   Rob: So contrary to, you know, you contribute to this pension, take the money out, you give it to them, they give you a stream forever. If here you say, give me my assets, I will put them in a locked in retirement account and maybe I can roll some of that to an RRSP and then that becomes my assets. Those are my assets, my pension. I can have quite a bit of flexibility on it because I can draw more or less. But more importantly, the big one is, it's in my name. If I pass my estate gets it, my spouse gets it, it goes onto my beneficiaries. Full Blog Article and Video on Pension Tax Credit    Adam: That is often the number one thing when we meet with clients is their goal is they want to make sure the bulk of that pension that they worked so hard for their entire career actually goes to their family if they pass away.   Rob: Yeah.   Adam: Right. Instead of that guaranteed payment stream, it's making sure that 100% of whatever money is left goes to what's most important. Their families.   Rob: Makes a ton of sense. Talk to me really quick about the bridge benefit.   Adam: Some pensions do have a bridge benefit, which gives you a little bit extra money prior to age 65 which is to bridge you until you start your Canada pension plan or your old age security. So it gives you a slightly higher pension until that point in time and then it drops your pension. But then your CPP and your old age security kick in, which boost up your income back to where it should be.   Rob: It's an advantage.   Adam: It is an advantage, right? It's extra money that you're getting to try to smooth out your income throughout retirement.   Rob: Okay. And what about cost of living adjustments? Are there any for costs of living.   Adam: When it comes to that, the HEPP pension plan, it is on an ad hoc basis, which means they will give you the cost of living increase when they feel they have the money to do so. There are no guarantees in place that your pension is going to keep up with the cost of living increases.   Rob: Historically, some of them have happened, some of them haven't.   Adam: Yeah, they do it on a year by year basis. Depends on how the pension's funded. Depends on all the performance has been a variety of different factors that may only be partially indexed to inflation or cost of living on a year by year basis. But of course, there's no guarantees.   Rob: That's called COLA.   Adam: COLA, Cost of Living Adjustment.   Rob: All right, perfect. Well thanks Adam. I really appreciate your time. It's great to have you here live from downtown Winnipeg talking about the HEB and the HEPP pensions. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam Buss, Senior Wealth and Estate Planner at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management.  If you have questions on this or on your portfolio or on your planning, or if you're retiring soon and you're not sure what to do, go to speaktorob.com, we'll book a consultation free, no obligations. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for tuning in. Have a great day.

Corporate Owned Life Insurance (H1)   Rob: Corporate owned life insurance is a neat way to save some taxes inside of your corporation while also protecting any and all risk inside your corporation. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. This is Adam Buss. He's a really smart guy and we're thrilled to have him here.   Adam: Thanks for having me.   Rob: A bit of a superstar. All right, Adam - corporately owned insurance. Where do we begin?   Adam: Well first of all, who doesn't love talking about life insurance; it doesn't get any more exciting of a topic than that! But there's a variety of reasons that somebody may want to have corporately owned life insurance. Often, we see buy/sell agreements, which are a great way of kind of protecting the corporation.   Rob: Okay. So, you and I are partners in a business. We put in our shareholders' agreement, and there's an agreement where if I pass or if you pass, you're buying out my shares.   Adam: I'm going to buy your shares from you. It's pre-agreed upon that this is what's going to happen. But I don't want to go to the bank and borrow, let's say half a million dollars to buy you out from the corporation.   Rob: Right.   Adam: I'm going to put life insurance on you, and if you pass away, that guarantees that there is cash in place for me to buy your shares …     Rob: And then that money goes?   Adam: To your estate.   Rob: To my estate, to my family, and that just comes out?   Adam: Yeah. It's guarantee that that is going to happen. It gives the liquidity; your family has the peace of mind knowing that the cash is there for that transaction.   Rob: Okay. For that, I assume you'd have to factor in growth of the company and that would be like the corporation would pay for both of our policies. I understand.   Adam: Yeah. It's much more efficient if you have the corporation own the policies, as it's paid with after tax corporate dollars instead of after-tax personal dollars. As we all know, the corporate tax rate is a lot lower than the personal tax rate if you had to pay for that policy yourself.   Rob: We're chugging along, we're running our business, and the corporation has a monthly expense or an annual expense for insurance. But you and I don't suffer as a result in our day to day salary or anything. And if ever anything happens to me heaven forbid, you get the company; you get ownership of it and my family gets the wealth.   Adam: Exactly.   Rob: It's a neat way to structure something to protect ourselves and our interest. Because you know, if there's no USA in place, maybe my wife now gets the shares or my partner or my estate gets the shares. Maybe they don't know anything about our business. It could be complicated. That's very important to look at.   Adam: Absolutely, it's a key component.   Rob: That's one. You could do buy/sell agreement. What else could corporately owned insurance cover?   Adam: Well, a lot of corporations have debt within the corporations; whether it's buying real estate or operating loans, it's nice to have that debt paid off in in case of one of the key owners of the corporation passing away. Often banks require that the loans have adequate insurance coverage on it as well to give them the peace of mind that if the key employee, let's say Rob, passes away, that they're going to get their money to pay off that loan.   Rob: Okay. You're covering the debt much like you would like on a mortgage or personal debt.   Adam: Yes.   Rob: Okay. You're covering the debt now. What about a key person - you hear that term a lot for sure?   Adam: Yeah. A key person is basically there to make sure that any lost income for that corporation could be replaced if that key individual was to pass away. There's also such things as key person for critical illness or disability coverage. It's a way of the corporation protecting its earnings in the event that that key individual passes away or experiences and unfortunate illness.   Rob: That would likely be for a corporation where there's potentially one or two individuals that are driving most of the revenue in the corporation.   Adam: Yes.   Rob: A trade perhaps, or a consulting business where one individual is driving a lot of the revenue.   Adam: Absolutely.   Rob: Okay. And then you insure the protection. That person's no longer to drive the revenue. You insure that. And then the corporation still has the assets. And the estate benefits from that.   Adam: You bet.   Rob: Okay. What about these tax planning strategies that I hear about where you're using corporate dollars to pay for a policy to effectively protect some wealth long-term, and to pull some money out of the corp effectively tax free?   Adam: Absolutely. It is a great strategy we talk to clients pretty much every day about which is using a whole life insurance policy owned by the corporation, paid for by the corporation. Again, it's paying for it with after tax corporate dollars. And the idea is to try to get some of that cash out to the beneficiaries tax-free, or maybe to pay a tax liability on the disposition of your corporate shares when you pass away, maybe a large real estate tax liability, or you just have far too much money in your corporation, which is a good problem to have. But we want to try to get that out tax free to your beneficiaries as much as possible. And whole life insurance is one of the best strategies to do that.   Rob: Okay. So let's talk about that last scenario. You've got too much money in your corp; great problem to have by the way. Super fun problem. So you've got a ton of money in your corp. You're not going to be able to spend it all. You're in the kind of high net worth ranking - you would consider yourself to be high net worth. There's a lot of money built up in the corp, but you do it through an operating company or a holding company. So, you've made profits in your operating company. Maybe it's moved to the company. Now there's wealth that's accumulated there. You're never going to spend it. You've got RRSPs, you've got TFSAs. Is that a situation where you could potentially consider a whole life policy?   Adam: It's certainly something that we take a deep dive into every client's unique situation. I want to address and see, okay, how much of this corporate cash is actually needed to fund your lifestyle over time? Is any of it earmarked for a particular corporate project? Maybe the person wants to go and buy a new rental property in the near future, but we want to look at how much of that cash is surplus and is just sitting there. You're having to pay tax every year on the investment growth and we want to see how we can try to make that a bit more tax efficient moving forward. We're basically going to take some of that corporate cash every year and shift it from pocket A to pocket B into a tax-exempt life insurance policy where all of the growth is tax sheltered. Down the road when you pass away, it pays out to the corporation 100 percent tax free and then it pays out to the beneficiaries of your estate through the CDA credit.   Rob: The CDA would be the capital dividend?   Adam: The capital dividend account, which is a tax-free amount that can come out of the corporation.   Rob: The corporation pays the insurance policy, correct? I pass away the corporation gets it tax free. Yes, the million or 2 million or whatever it may be. Absolutely. And then it also comes out of there completely tax free through the CDA.   Adam: Yes. So generally it is going to be completely tax free. There may be a portion which is taxable, but it's very minor by comparison and generally the tax savings is huge by comparison to not having the strategy put in place.   Rob: This would not be a situation like we've done in some other videos where we've talked about protecting risk through insurance. This would not be a situation where you're trying to protect the risk. This would be a situation where you're trying to optimize your estate for...   Adam: Optimizing your estate. You're optimizing your tax efficiency for your corporation. Some people will use it as a tool to avoid the small business deduction. The grind on the small business tax rates since they implemented the passive income changes. Any income generate within the life insurance policy does not apply towards the passive income.   Rob: It's exempt from that $60 grand rule?   Adam: Yes.   Rob: The passive income grind, if you make more than $50 grand of passive income annually in your corporation, your small business tax rate exemption gets grinded away. And this income would exempt that.   Adam: That's correct.   Rob: Okay, so just another way to shelter income. All right, we've talked about a whole bunch of different things – we talked about protecting debt, we talked about key person insurance, we talked about the tax efficient strategies, and we've talked about the buy sell agreements. Anything else you can think of that would make sense for a corporately owned policy? Full Blog Article and Video on How to Prepare a Sound Retirement & Estate Planning Strategy  I guess the key thing we're taking away from all this is you're not paying this with after tax dollars, right?   Adam: Yeah. You're paying it with after tax personal dollars. It's maybe costing you, you know, 90 cents on the dollar instead of more because you're using after tax corporate dollars and you have a fantastic low corporate tax rate. The other thing we often look at is which corporation, if you have multiple, should these policies be owned. Again, that's something we look at with our clients to make sure we find the right fit.   Rob: Many times, we'll meet a client and their insurance is either not owned by the right corporation or we're being paid by the wrong corporation or its own personal when it should be owned corporately.   Adam: Yep.   Rob: This is stuff that I feel is fairly high level and you probably need really good advice on this. If that's something that's on your mind, make sure to go to speaktorob.com to get a free consultation with us. Adam, I thank you for your time today. We looked at a lot of really neat things. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Today I had with me Adam Buss, Senior Wealth and Estate Planner here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management.  

Your Marriage Has An Impact!!! Join the Marriage After God movement today. https://marriageaftergod.com"A husband and wife chasing after God knows every aspect of their marriage is for proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are not ashamed to share about it, and they are confident in the impact they are making in the world around them." - Marriage After God book"The two of you serving God together will always make a greater impact than the two of you could make alone striving for your own accomplishments and happiness."Marriage After God bookPrayer:Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of companionship. Marriage is such an intimate friendship that blesses us. We desire to draw closer to each other and to use this intimate bond to bless your name. Thank you for being intertwined in our relationship and at the center of it. You are the reason we are stronger together. Please continue to strengthen us as a cord of 3 strands. We pray that you would use us to do hard things as we build up your body and build up your kingdom. Be our strength as we persevere. May we be intentional in encouraging each other in marriage so that we do not grow weary. We pray against the enemy. We pray against his evil ways. Thank you for being our refuge and our shield. Thank you for equipping us and empowering us to stay strong and to fulfill your will. May your will be done in us and through our marriage.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today, we're in part 15 of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Adam and Katie Reid about how we are stronger together. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith everyday. - [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - Love. - And power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you guys so much for joining us on this podcast today. We wanna encourage everyone listening to just leave us a star rating review, that just helps the podcast get out into the world. And so, if you wanna support this podcast and you've been inspired by it, would you take a moment just to leave that review? Because it helps people find marriage after God. - [Aaron] Also, and we also wanna let you know the whole reason we've been doing these interviews, the whole reason this podcasts exists is because we wrote a book called Marriage After God, my wife and I and we're excited to get it in your hands. If you would take a moment after this podcast is over or take a pause in between and just go shop.marraigeaftergod.com and pick up a copy of the Marriage After God book. It's our newest book, we've written it together and we wrote it for you and your marriage and we're excited to get it in your hands and hear what you think about it. - [Jennifer] So, today, our special guests are Adam and Katie Reid. Hi you guys, thanks for joining us. - [Adam] Hey, thanks for having us. - [Katie] Thanks so much, we're glad to be here. - [Jennifer] So, why don't you just take a moment to introduce yourselves to our listeners, I'm sure a lot of them already know who you are, Katie, and your book. But just touch on that and then how long you've been married, how many children, what you guys do together, that kinda thing. - [Katie] Yeah, well, we're Adam and Katie Reid. I mean, Adam can probably share some things about himself too. But he's the lead pastor at our church, I'm a speaker and writer and we have a marriage show we do together called Stop Hammock Time on Facebook Live. And we have five loud and wonderful kids, we are not usually bored. - Awesome. - [Adam] Yeah, no, we stay busy and did you say that we've been married for 17 years? - [Katie] No, I did not. - [Adam] Yeah, we've been married for 17 years, it'll be 18 this summer and five kids ages ranging 14 to 2 1/2, almost three. And so, yeah, we definitely stay busy. - [Katie] Lots of life experience. - [Aaron] Yeah, that's awesome, we're aspiring to that. We're on our way, we're at year 12 and we got-- - Four. - Yeah, four kids. So, we're on our way. - Yeah. - Okay, guys, so, we always like to start with an icebreaker, this just helps everyone get to know you just a little bit more, so we're going there. What's your guys' most embarrassing marriage moment? - [Katie] Oh, man, so-- - [Adam] How do we choose? - [Katie] How do we choose? So we were part of a discipleship program at a Christian camp and there was a guy on staff that looked a lot like Adam and sometimes Adam let his twin, named Matt, borrow his vehicle. And one day, I was at the grocery store and I saw Adam's vehicle there. I'm like oh my goodness, I am going to totally pull the best prank. So I climbed into the back, like the trunk area of the car. And I'm like I'm gonna jump out, like maybe after he's driving, this is gonna be so funny. Well, all of a sudden, I'm kinda peeking and it's taking forever, it's really hot. And all of a sudden, I see our friend Matt walking towards the car and I'm like oh, this is gonna be awkward. And so, I'm like how do I get out of the truck area before he gets there? And so, I can't get out but I'm like hey, I thought you were Adam and I was gonna jump out. That was definitely embarrassing. - [Adam] Yeah, that was-- - [Aaron] That's really funny. - [Jennifer] What a terrifying prank. - [Adam] It was a great story to hear when she got back to the house. But another one that we just had happen just a couple days ago, we've been getting a bunch of snow and ice here in Michigan. So a lot of ice the last few days and I was watching something online teaching you how to walk on ice. And how when it's icy out, you should walk differently than your normal stride and keeping your center of gravity over your feet. And they said you should walk like a penguin because the penguins, they kinda have things figured out and they're on ice and snow often. And so, we were going to a funeral, Katie and I and we dropped our kids off at our in-laws. We walked out and the driveway was really slippery and so, I said, hey Katie, walk like a penguin. And so, we're both kinda waddling with our heads down and our center of gravity over, our toes turned out walking like penguins. And we look up and there's a guy walking his dog right at the end of the driveway and he kinda looked at us like we were really nutty. And Katie says, we're trying to walk like a penguin, trying that technique out on the ice. And he just kinda like okay. Just kept walking. - [Aaron] No context, no context. - [Adam] Yeah, we got in the car and laughed really hard about that one. - [Jennifer] That's awesome. - [Aaron] That would have been awesome to see. - [Adam] You guys gotta be able to laugh at yourself. - [Aaron] Yeah, being able to laugh is joy, that's joy. Being able to laugh at yourself, that's good. So, we're gonna go into, thanks for sharing those embarrassing moments. Adam, I just really wanna, I think that was an awesome prank you played on your wife, that you-- - [Adam] Best prank. - [Aaron] In the car when she was with, that's funny. - Yeah-- - So, we're gonna go into-- - [Adam] Didn't know if she said but it was a Jeep. And so, she wasn't climbing in the back of a car and closing the trunk on herself but it was the back of Jeep and it was so hot and she was dripping with sweat and that made it even more funny. - [Aaron] So we're gonna get into a quote real quick from the Marriage After God book in chapter 15. So we're gonna share a quote from chapter 15, Stronger Together in the Marriage After God book and this is the quote, the two of you serving God together will always make a greater impact than the two of you could make alone striving for your own accomplishments and happiness. So, real quick, we can just talk about that for a second, do you feel like this, do you see this in your own marriage? - [Adam] Absolutely, yeah, I look back at my life before marriage and completely different person, different way of doing life and different way of ministering and that definitely comes from learning and growing because of being married to Katie. And I think, I don't wanna speak for you, but I think you can say the same thing, Katie. She has strengths that I don't have and I have strengths that she doesn't have and that's the beauty of marriage and God's design For that is making each other better and not really making each other better, I think, but the husband and wife combination there, not just husband and wife but male and female combination there, I think, gives a much clearer and more accurate picture of God's character and who He is. And so, there are things that Katie is very good at that I am not and she fills in those gaps there and vice versa. We are much better person together than we are apart. - [Katie] Well, I think we learned this over time too because at the beginning, I'm a very driven person, semi-organized, getting more organized since we're trying to implement some of the tidying up techniques in our home. It used to drive me crazy that he wasn't like me in that area, it's like I just thought you see the world through your own lens. And so, to me, the thought of not turning a paper in in time in college stressed me out so much that I think I wrote his paper for him because he's just gonna turn it in the week it was due. - [Adam] It may have happened once. - [Katie] Just one time. But then there's things that he is really good with people. I can sometimes be too blunt, he has a great way of making people feel like they're important. And so, we've learned over time to appreciate the strengths in others instead of just trying to wish we were more like, they were more like us. I think we've looked at, okay, I have weaknesses and strengths, you have weaknesses and strengths and how can we blend these together to be more effective? - [Jennifer] I love that picture of complimenting each other in that way. And how God, He has a mission for all of us to do and work for all of us to do and each one of our marriages is so unique and yet, paired together, we compliment each other for all of those things and to be able to fulfill them. - [Aaron] Yeah and your guys' marriage doesn't seem anything like ours. I'm making a joke 'cause I, Jennifer is always like why won't you just, I do it this way, why don't you do it that way and we've had to get to this point of, well, I might do something differently and that's gotta be okay sometimes. Now-- - Learning to appreciate, knowing the value of that is really important. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] And I think that a marriage after God definitely has their eyes open to those differences and sees the value in them. - [Aaron] Yeah and also growing in them like there's some things that we do need to change in, for sure. But that's a really good testimony. Has there been any standout moments in your marriage? We're talking about this stronger together, the unification, us moving in the same direction in one mind, one spirit in our marriage, has there been any standout moments in your marriage where you realize the two of you were stronger together? Any personal stories-- - Well, for us, we are in vocational ministry, I know that's not the case for everyone but we have led multiple camps together, like a youth camp. We do cousin camp with our nieces and nephews and just being able to tag team. If I just did it by myself, I'd be completely burned out by the end of the experience and same with him. But learning, I think, to let each other lead and we are not perfect at this by any means, we're both first borns and a lot of times, stubbornness or determination, how ever you wanna spin it, comes with that. - Determination, so. - Yeah. So there are times when we butt heads and somebody bends so the other can lead but we kind of do this clumsy dance and learn how, are learning how to do that more and more. So I think, for us, ministering to kids has been a way that we've been able to do that. But I was just telling someone the other day, now that Adam is lead pastor, there are some changes we're implementing at church but we also need mindful of the culture. But my tendency is like sweet, we can change a hundred things at once, won't this be great? Well, it won't be great because there's a culture and you wanna respect that. And so, Adam's help reminded me let's celebrate the one thing that we're doing right now. And so, for me, kind of my side writing and speaking thing gives me creative outlet to drive and go and get it done without driving him crazy that I'm putting all that energy into what he and I are doing together. - [Aaron] I like that. You guys have recognized that in the pursuit of what God's doing, you're stronger together when you allow the other person to operate in the strengths and gifts that they've given them in that proper order, I love that. And you also finding out, as a team, ways that you can have the other outlets in ministry so it's still working together but even if it's in different ways, does that make sense? - [Katie] Right, and like if I'm gonna go speak somewhere, do something outside the home, like a lot of times, Adam will watch the kids. And so, sometimes I think ministering together doesn't always look like side by side, we're both doing everything together-- - [Adam] In the same physical space, yeah. It can be her, the things that God has called us to as a family, when she goes and speaks, we are ministering with her by allowing her to go do that and vice versa. Katie and the family allow me to go and minister to people by picking up and doing things that need to be done. And so, ministering together, again, I think that's a good point. Ministering together doesn't always mean that you are right side by side with each other but more allowing each other to minister within the calling that our family has and within the good things that each of have individually. - [Jennifer] That's great, so for people listening, just as an encouragement to them, could you guys share maybe like one or two practical ways that a husband and wife can support each other in whatever thing that God is inviting them to do? Specifically, like how can a wife support her husband, how can a husband support his wife, practically? - [Adam] I mean, I think we're walking through that right now, Katie writing and speaking is a relatively new thing over the last few years, three years maybe. Me and the kids supporting her looks like allowing her to have the time to go write and it's our expectations, we take those expectations on, we take those things on so that that frees up her time to be able to go write. And there were multiple times when she was writing the book that she would just go away for the weekend and she was able to accomplish a lot of things and it was really time for her writing when she was able to do that. So trying to pick up some slack and take some of the responsibilities on so that she was allowed or able to go do that. And then also with her speaking now, it's hey, we'll be home, I've got the kids while she's allowed to, she's able to, not allowed to. It's not like I'm giving-- - That sounds-- - [Adam] I'm giving permission to go do this. But she's able to go do that and not have to worry about getting kids to soccer practice and swimming and these types of things where she can just go and focus on what God's called her to do ministering to other people through the book and through speaking. - [Katie] And I think a big part of it is communication. It's sitting down together as a couple and saying, what does God want our family to be about? I mean, Aaron, Jennifer, you guys are a great example of this, of you clearly know the mission God has put before you, it takes different forms at times, whether through podcast or encouraging people one on one or retreats or books or all of those kind of things. But I think asking God to help give you a vision for your family where He comes first, your marriage comes right under that, right? Marriage after God and-- - Yeah. - [Katie] And communicating what is God calling us to and how do we pursue that in this season? I think there are different seasons in lives too where it can look differently. We've had an elderly friend and they had a vibrant prayer ministry and they did it from their recliners in their living room. And would call people and wish them a happy birthday and they were literally side by side in their living room doing that. But earlier on-- - [Jennifer] That's awesome. - [Katie] When they were younger, it looked like doing that in person. So I think knowing the vision for your family and then communicating what does this look like practically? If we're gonna do this, what are we gonna say yes to and what are some things we're gonna say no to so that we can serve together? - [Aaron] So, what you guys are saying right now is so perfect in the whole message of what we're talking about in Marriage After God. And I just wanted to go back to, you were talking about how right now, this new season, and we love the seasonal mindset knowing that there's gonna be seasons and like the Bible teaches us this and learning how to operate within seasons. And you guys were talking about right now, Katie, you're writing and speaking, and Adam, you'll stay home and let her go do that. And that only works, and I'm assuming 'cause, Katie, you brought up communicating but you guys sat down and said, what is that God wants to do? But then, are we in agreeance? It's not like, Katie, I'm gonna be a speaker and a writer, let me do my thing. And, Adam, I'm gonna be doing this ministry over here, let me do my thing. That would conflict, you guys wouldn't be able to get anything done which goes back to the quote of you guys being on the same page, communicating what's the Lord doing right now this season? Writing and speaking and Adam's like Amen, I agree and I'm gonna participate where I can to make that happen. Versus you both pursuing your ministries-- - [Jennifer] Individually. - [Aaron] Individually in this heart of you're in my way. And I love that you brought that up because some might be listening right now thinking God's put this thing on my heart and I need to do it. And I don't care if my husband, if he's drug along or is out of the way or vice versa. No, I'm doing this thing over here and I don't care what my wife's at. Rather, hey, let's lay it on the table, what's God doing and let's be on the same page with each other. 'Cause then you can work as a team, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. And we just had a conversation yesterday, right outside the door here at church. And I had felt like God was leading me to write another book but Adam and the kids were not ready for that. And so, that was hard because sometimes you do feel that pull of God, sometimes it's like I think God wants me to do this. But I talked to some mentors in my life and they said, you know, Katie, you have a Godly husband, Godly family, I don't think that he's gonna ask you to do something if your family's in opposition. Like that doesn't follow the model that God has laid out. Not to say that there's definitely, everything's not black and white. But so, my friend encouraged me like with Nehemiah, right? When he saw that the wall was broken down, he went and fasted and prayed before he went to the king. And so, my friend encouraged me like Katie, if you're really feeling like God is wanting you to write this book, why don't you fast and pray and then when you feel clear what God's saying, go to your husband and talk to him about it, ask him what he thinks. And so, we just had this conversation yesterday because if your family isn't on board, you are not gonna be stronger together, it's going to be divisive. But when you're on the same page, I mean, there's a difference. There's been times when we had adopted our fourth child and, I, again, felt from the Lord like we're supposed to do this. But Adam was praying, he's like I just don't have a peace about it yet. For us to just go ahead and do that, like we would have been divided and disjointed but when the time was right and Adam's like yes, I'm confident that we should do this. It was so much sweeter because we had that unity and that's a picture of Christ and of the Trinity and what, He once used marriage as a picture that the world will know Him. - [Aaron] Yeah and I just, it's perfect, it's a beautiful illustration of what we're talking about. Because to be honest, God could have put on your heart, might have put on your, did put on your heart that He wants you to write another book. But at the end of the day, He wants us to do the things He's given us to do His way. - [Jennifer] And in His timing. - [Aaron] And in His timing. So it could have simply been, you're gonna go this but I want you to walk this out well. And so, His challenge to you is to do it right versus, no, God's told me to do something, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it my way, I'm gonna do it and everyone's gotta get outta my way or jump on the train. And any one of us could do this, Adam could be walking this, I could be walking this, Jennifer could be walking this but God's like just because I have something for you, doesn't mean I have that thing for you right this moment. And we see that all throughout the Bible with Moses and the people of Israel. With all of the prophets not being able to see what they were promised. - [Jennifer] David anointed-- - [Aaron] David and his anointing as a king. Like we see like, so it doesn't mean it's a no, it might mean it's a yes but later. And I love the process that you guys walk through and we can all take from this example. Saying, okay, Lord, I feel this is something You put on my heart but even though You put it on my heart, I'm still going to offer it to You and ask that You show me how You want it done and when You want it done. And a part of that is getting counsel like you said and then going to your spouse and saying here's what it is, what are we gonna do about this? - Fasting and praying. - Let's pray about this together, let's be on the same page. I wanted to encourage you, that was really good, I love that. - [Jennifer] So you've given us this picture of unity, you said being on the same page with each other makes us stronger together. Can you guys just talk a little bit about oneness and unity and how that makes us stronger for the ministry that God has for all of us? - [Adam] I mean, again, I think unity is so important in marriage, the enemy uses little things to drive wedges between us. And in Song of Solomon, I'm loving the Song of Solomon right now, that book is fantastic. There's this message of catch the little foxes, it's sometimes just the little things in a marriage that the enemy uses to drive a wedge between us and it's important that we are communicating often and on the same page. Recognizing little things that we say, hey, this is something that we might wanna look at and pray about and talk about and maybe even we gotta get rid of this because it's driving a wedge between us. There are things that we need to recognize and remove or at least be aware of and be communicating about to be able to stay unified. The other thing I was gonna say is, again, marriage being a picture of the church and Christ. And Christ being the bride/groom and the church being the bride and Christ wanting perfect unity between Him and the church. And, again, we're sinful people. And so, that some day will be accomplished but that unification, that pure unadulterated unity is something that like Katie said before, the world is going to see Jesus by the way we do our marriages. And if we're divided, that says something to the world about God and about Jesus and vice versa. If we're unified and we're on the same page and we're communicating, that communicates something very important as well. - [Katie] I was just gonna add too, the other day, we had a really hard conversation because honestly, we are both tired, we have busy lives. And so, we would just kinda zone out on our phones at night and we are kind of slipping into this pattern of kind of coexisting, doing things during the day, kinda saying a few things and then like zoning out, escaping on our phones and then going to bed. And we had a hard conversation where there was lots of tears. Honestly, Adam, he's a go with the flow guy but I know when he brings up something that I need to work on, it's a big deal 'cause he waits a long till we have to say it. But we were just realizing like I could almost see this path we are going down of like had we kept going down that path, we would have lost a lot of that unity and oneness. Because honestly, unity and oneness is hard work. We have the Holy Spirit, obviously, to help us but it's those hard decisions that aren't always convenient and aren't always comfortable but they bring him the most worry. - [Aaron] So, I was just thinking, Jennifer and I literally just had a conversation similar a couple nights ago. And with this book coming out and the podcast and all the things that we're trying to be obedient in lately and with God. I was just mentioning to her, I was like hey, Jennifer, we need to be extra protective over our intimacy, over our time alone. Because in these seasons of us walking in obedience and chasing after these things, this is where we're gonna be attacked, this is where we're gonna lose focus. Is in our physical intimacy, in our spiritual intimacy, in our times alone when we should be recharging each other, being recharged in the word. And so, I just mentioned to her, I was like we need to be extra vigilant in protecting this part of our unity because if that goes, it doesn't matter what else we do. And so, it sounds like we were on the same journey. - [Jennifer] Well, I think everyone listening too can relate to this 'cause as you were talking, Katie, I think I can picture all the listeners on their end looking at each other if they're listening together as a couple. Well, with these downcast basis, like yeah, that's us. Everybody has access to social media and their phones and other things too that get in the way of that intimacy-- - [Aaron] That take our attention from each other. - [Jennifer] That take our attention away from each other and I love that you brought that up just as a reminder. So if everyone can just drop this note down, it would be to get our eyes off of our phones, off of the things that draw attention away from each other, look to each other and look to God of what He is doing. 'Cause He is doing something in this world and He's doing it through His people, He's doing it through us. So I love that you brought that up and I appreciate the encouragement to other people. My next question for you guy, oh, go ahead. - [Adam] That's not something that is kind of a one time conversation either, that's something where sometimes-- - Right. - It's continual. - [Adam] Those conversations happen often because we can easily slip back into old patterns, we can easily slip back into things that are just easy and avoid the tough conversations and honestly, tough change and tough challenging. Katie, part of the reason Katie is in my life is to challenge me and make me better and vice versa. I believe that God brought me to her to make her better and together, we're better. But changing the way that we are and changing the things that are easy takes work and it's not fun. And so, a lot of times it's easier just to escape into something else and just avoid those conversations. And that is a conversation, obviously, that could probably happen more often than it even does and would make us better, so. - [Aaron] Yeah, so, thinking about those conversations, those corrective course changing conversations that need to happen often. Our pastor always says in conversations about raising our children, 90% affirmation, 10% correction, those 10% corrections need to happen. Like you said the other night, you just were like hey, we're at a point where this needs to be addressed and changed tonight. But the 90% affirmation side, how important and how integral has affirmation played a role in the building of unity in your marriage and for those listening that we need to be recognizing that affirmation is important? How does that look? - [Katie] Well, one example that comes to mind is actually with our kids, so I'm not the most tidy housekeeper as I may have alluded to early on. And so, when it's time to clean, I kind of turn into like housezilla. It's just like I'm barking orders, I'm like come on everybody! 'Cause I'm so stressed by the amount of what needs to get done. So, my son, he's 12, sometimes he'll just stop and go, mom, you're so beautiful. And later on I thought he's being manipulative because it would change my attitude and all of a sudden, I would stop and realize how horrible I was being and when he pointed that out, it made me feel good inside. And so, the picture when, if Adam sends me a text just saying I appreciate you, I love you, period. It does, it builds into that and I'm more guilty of saying, hey, could you pick up this on your way home? And hey, how about this? But even when he goes and cashes his paycheck, trying to say thank you for working hard to provide for our family, just those little things in texting can be great with that. Sometimes even when you're at your house, of course you wanna talk face to face but if you're in the other room, just say, hey, I love you. I think that's huge because those corrective things, if that's happening all the time, it wears us down and we get discouraged. But building into our marriage in those ways, I don't think can happen enough. - [Adam] That's a good point, I think we can put so much weight and a burden on each other when we're heavy on the corrective side of things and vice versa. We can really lighten things up and make things more alive and life-giving when we're heavy on the affirmation side of things. And so, yeah, I think we both, that scenario, we can both grow in, for sure. - [Aaron] Yeah, us too. And it makes for, and so, affirmation is proaction and I see correction as reactive. So it's the thing like well, when it's necessary, we should do it 'cause correction needs to happen. But the affirmation makes a lot of the correction much less because we're being affirmed in the correct directions. We're being affirmed in the word of God, we're being affirmed to continue in the faith and to continue in what we believe and what's true. And how, like you said, you're beautiful. And you're like oh, I am beautiful and I need to be acting like what I am. Yeah, the affirmation is so important to us, just continue to move the right direction and keep our marriages and our ministries full of life and full of love and peace and joy. So, Jennifer, why don't you ask this one last question and then we'll get to the last last question. - [Jennifer] The last last question. Okay, so, in this chapter of Marriage After God, we share this idea of contrasting, what the world says about love. That you and me against the world so it's kind of like internalized love versus God's picture and desire for the mission of our marriage which is you and me for the world. What does this look like in your guys' marriage? - [Katie] Well, first of all, I just love that idea, it's powerful. And it reminds me of like let's say you're trying to push a big wheel, like if we're pushing against each other, we're gonna get nowhere. But if we get on one side of that wheel and push it, like my kids were helping me push my van that was stuck in the driveway this morning. - Oh no. - Oh no, 'cause the snow. - [Katie] You're combining your strengths and I think there's so much hostility and division out there in the world. I think, again, back to Nehemiah when they were trying to rebuild the wall, they said fight for your families. And I love the picture, it was all the people that were building this broken down wall, were doing it, it said, shoulder to shoulder. And I love that picture in marriage, are you serving shoulder to shoulder? Again, whether you're in the same room or not, are you going towards one goal which is to honor God? - [Aaron] Yes, yes. - [Katie] Because we've had friends recently die, like several and it's reminding of how fleeting life is. And God has given each marriage a purpose and that purpose could look different but all of purposes combined are to advance the kingdom. And like you said, husband and wife for the things of God. - [Adam] I think what I would say to that is it sometimes take a change of mindset as well. Because we as Christians, it can be very easy to slip into a mindset of oh, the world is attacking my faith, the world is attacking my God, the world is attacking me, the culture is doing these things. And so, it can be very easy to get defensive and put walls up and say, okay, you're attacking me, I'm coming after you. When really the mindset that God has given us is He said don't be surprised when this stuff happens, they hated Me. Jesus said they hated Me and they're going to hate you because you're aligned with Me. But He also said lay down your life for those people, sacrifice for those people, serve those people. And so, it could just take, again, conversations, how are we becoming more passionate to be like Jesus in loving and laying down our life for the world? As opposed to how do protect ourselves against the world? - [Jennifer] I love that perspective. And I also can't get that imagine of pushing a wheel out of my mind, I love imagery. And so, that's really powerful to me and I just think of husband and wife on either side like you said, Katie. And as pushing with all of our force and using all of our strength and then feeling super defeated because it has not moved at all, it doesn't work. And so-- - Well, actually, to take that analogy further, when one does get weak, what happens? The wheel rolls right over 'em. And so, we harm our marriage and instead of working in the same direction and actually getting somewhere, we also don't destroy our marriage. We don't destroy our partner, our spouse, the one that God's given us to be one with, so those are great-- - Perspectives. - Perspectives, yeah. So let's get to this last question, we've asked this to everyone. In your own words, what is a marriage after God? - [Katie] Rock, paper, scissors. - [Adam] We're both playing it to tell ya, hey, you take the part of this one. But I think, again, I love the duality of the title there, a Marriage After God, meaning we're seeking to follow God, we're seeking to be in alignment with His design for marriage, we're seeking to be in alignment in His purpose for marriage. But we're also, lost my train of thought there, but-- - [Katie] Well, that we want our marriage to be, go ahead. I was just gonna say, we want God to be first, right? Our marriage comes after God but then we also want our marriage to pursue God and the things of God. 'Cause like bed, this life is but a vapor and there's eternity if we are in Christ, we will live eternally with Him but we really have a limited time on this Earth. And there's so many petty things, I think Elizabeth Elliot, I've heard through the grapevine she had said this. That I think Jim Elliot, her husband who is martyred, he used to snore. Well, that could have been the thing that just drove her crazy but then afterwards, when her husband wasn't there, she missed that snoring. I always joke with Adam that he's gonna miss when I'm gone because I fall asleep during movies and he's not convinced that he will miss that. But I think it's do you want an internal perspective-- - [Aaron] Jennifer, you fall asleep during movies too. - [Katie] Is God the head of our marriage? Is He giving us our directives and are we going after the things He's laid before us? - Amen. - Amen and amen. That is so awesome, thank you so much for answering that. And just so you guys know, we're super encouraged by you and the ministry that is coming out of your marriage. You guys compliment each other so well and the Lord's using it to impact this world for His kingdom. And so, we're cheering you on and we just wanna give you an opportunity to share a little bit more about where people could follow along, you guys do these awesome interviews together. So why don't you share a little bit about that. - [Katie] Well, first of all, thanks so much for having us and I hope everyone gets a copy of Marriage After God, I know it's gonna be a wonderful resource to strengthen marriages, so-- - Thank you. - You're welcome. So we do a live show called Stop Hammock Time, 9:00 p.m. on Wednesday evenings on Facebook Live and you can find that if you go to Katie M, M as in Martha, Reid, R-E-I-D on Facebook. And we do those, and sometimes it's just Adam and I, sometimes you interview people. We have a great interview with you guys on there but it's a way to encourage marriages. And then we also have a Facebook group called Hammock Time Hangout Hub and we just kind of go a little deeper with the people in that group and share things like about your guys book or about an article we read or a question. But we just wanna encourage couples to grow closer in the relationship with the Lord and the relationship with each other. - [Aaron] Awesome, we thank you guys and we're gonna go into a time of prayer for a second and then we're gonna close out. - [Adam] Yeah. - [Aaron] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of companionship. Marriage is such an intimate friendship that blesses us. We desire to draw closer to each other and to use the intimate mind to bless your name. Thank you for being intertwined in our relationship and at the center of it. You're the reason we are stronger together. Please continue to strengthen us as a chord of three strands. We pray that you would use us to do hard things as we build up your body and build up your kingdom. Be our strength as we persevere. May we be intentional in encouraging each other in marriage so that we do not grow weary. We pray against the enemy, we pray against his ways. Thank you for being our refuge and our shield. Thank you for equipping us and empowering us to stay strong and to fulfill Your will. May Your will be done in us and through our marriage in Jesus' name. - [All] Amen. - [Aaron] Hey, so we just wanna thank you guys for joining us. And we wanna thank everyone that has been listening. We pray that this conversation has blessed you and your marriage and we pray that your conversations will be fruitful from this conversation. And you know what, we have one more episode in this series. So please stay tuned and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Adam Biehler, VP of Partnerships and BD at mParticle, and Matt McRoberts, SVP of Global Alliances at Braze, join me in San Francisco to discuss the current state of the marketing ecosystem. Matt and Adam provide a brief history on the evolution of data platforms and the shift toward customer-centric strategy.       TRANSCRIPT: [0:00:18] PJ Bruno: Hello again, welcome back to Braze for Impact, your MarTech Industry Discussed Digest. This is PJ Bruno, and I'm also with two titans. Adam Biehler, VP of partnerships and BD at mParticle. Adam, how's it going buddy?   [0:00:32] Adam: Great, how you doing there PJ?   [0:00:34] PJ Bruno: I'm doing real well. And also our very own Matt McRoberts, SVP of global alliances at Braze. Matt, thanks for sitting down with us buddy.   [0:00:41] Matt McRoberts: PJ, always a pleasure.   [0:00:43] PJ Bruno: And now here we are a week out from MAU. How did it go all-in-all Adam, you felt good about it?   [0:00:48] Adam: Yeah, it was definitely a fire conference this week. Not a fire festival, though.   [0:00:54] PJ Bruno: Right. Not a fire fest, let's not confuse those. You guys were the presenting sponsor, right? That's kind of a big deal. That's the top-top.   [0:01:01] Adam: Yeah, yeah I mean ... You know, we want to make sure our brand is associated with some of the more up and coming businesses for consumer experience, right? And from our standpoint we look at, you know, the attendees of MAU and ... Really just the thought leadership that comes out of that conference as blazing a path for mobile and for what the next generation of the day-to-day and how we as individuals interact with digital technology and devices.   [0:01:31] PJ Bruno: It was buzzing in there, man. There was a lot of great energy. And also as the presenting sponsor, what are the perks with that, is it dinner with Diplo, did you get anything, do anything?   [0:01:40] Adam: Oh, you're looking for that type of perk.   [0:01:43] PJ Bruno: Fun times. All right well what this really is, this is a partner spotlight episode. So we're really eager to kind of like get into it with Adam and mParticle. Adam I'd love for you to just kind of like give us the backstory. Like I've heard a little bit about the Cats brothers, how you guys are kind of forging the way with CDP. I'd love to hear a little bit about that story, what took you guys here.   [0:02:01] Adam: Yeah. I mean I think that the team here all kind of come from the same belief system around, you know, a couple core aspects of what's going on in the industry today. Data is kind of at the core of everything. What we're also seeing is as cloud and SAS are just continuing to manifest themselves in multiple capacities from like, an application standpoint, that the number of silos that get created just continue to proliferate. And so we've got, you know, a team of people that just believe that business users should be able to take advantage of this wealth of customer data to create competitive advantage; as opposed to being in its place where they know they've got these tools that they potentially could be taking advantage of, but because of some of the past investments or legacy investments you may have made, you're actually more hamstrung and you're watching other businesses that are smaller, more nimble, just pass you by. So ultiMattely, kind of simplifying all that. It comes down to like we want to empower business users to take advantage of customer data they have access to, and we want to allow the developers and engineers of businesses to focus on the core competencies of their business, not worrying about building and maintaining integrations, which are, you know not necessarily the core of their business.   [0:03:10] PJ Bruno: Right. Just Band-Aids all the time.   [0:03:12] Adam: Yeah.   [0:03:13] PJ Bruno: Was that the vision pretty much from the start?   [0:03:15] Adam: I mean, again, I think like even when you look at us in day one we were mobile-centric and, you know, really most of our customers were only doing things on mobile at that point. And, you know, people talk about all the other use cases and, you know, [inaudible] and all this stuff. And it's not about that. It was about the ability to collect customer data for our customers for their ability to collect their customers' data from the place that's as close to the customer as possible, and the most relevant, and to use that to power marketing with great tools like Braze,. And the story is evolved because the channels have evolved. And, you know, web has always been there, but we saw the next generation of customer experience really stemming from mobile. And so you see a lot of investment around OTT and voice. And so all of these other places that, you know, are the next generation, the modern customer experience that we want to be delivering.   [0:04:03] PJ Bruno: It's an exciting time and people are finally starting to catch on, I think.   [0:04:06] Matt McRoberts: Yeah, no, they very much are. Very much.   [0:04:09] PJ Bruno: So Matt, this article you wrote recently "The Six Pillars of the Ecosystem", is there a reason that data and infrastructure is number one? Was there a method to the madness there, or?   [0:04:19] Matt McRoberts: Great question. And Adam addressed a lot of the rhetoric. It's like the idea of silos and keeping your data beholden to different legacy systems. It's prohibitive to really the times of transforMattion. It's now about speed to market, speed to insight, speed to business value. Where CDPs have assumed this position within the new ecosystem it becomes quite critical. Because what they allow in concert with the Brazes of the world is this idea around agility, and agility, it obviously is synonymous with speed. Being able to be agile and focused and democratize that data across all those systems. So if anyone's putting together an ecosystem strategy, they have to look at "How do they standardize data?" "How do they break down the silos?" "How are they able to pump that data into the key parts of their business?" And I think the place, the position, the power that CDPs provide is quite impressive in terms of where they sit today in this ecosystem.   [0:05:18] PJ Bruno: And last we spoke you mentioned about us being in a wash of data. And I guess a CDP could be number one because you need to get that stuff in order, you need to clean house.   [0:05:26] Matt McRoberts: Yeah, I mean think about the integrations, the depth of integrations that a provider like mParticle is going to need to promote. You know, you've got ad ecosystems, you've got martech ecosystems, you have proprietary data warehouses. And to be able to, again, is get that data to work together in concert so you can get to market faster, you can uncover insights, drive business outcomes. Without that layer within the ecosystem it becomes quite difficult. So you can see, like, you know Adam and I joke quite a bit, is the legend and lore and thought leadership and content that is come ... It's a brand new category, it didn't exist, right? And so I think it shows just how quickly this idea around breaking down silos becomes the future is here, and it's now, and we're in a wash of data.   [0:06:17] Adam: Yeah. It, I mean, putting a pin in some of this, like what the CDP ... The Brazes of the world in today's ecosystem are enabling, it's instead of building your business based on what, you know, the technology that you've decided to use, unlocks for you, it's more about build the customer experience that you want to deliver. And then, you know, work into the technology that supports your use cases. So it kind of flips the paradigm for how you actually think about what's important to your business. Not just tech for techs sake, it's tech because it supports an outcome that we know we want to go deliver. And, you know, I think, again, it's all about data, so [inaudible] CDP, CRM, whatever acronym you want to use, I don't care. Let's talk about what you want to do and which tools are going to get you there. And there's always going to be a great tool that can get you there. You know there's this notion of foundational CDP which is where ourselves and a couple others in this space play, and yeah, I think essentially it, again it kind of comes down to we're never going to have an application. We're all about making it super easy for business users to take advantage of data associated to a customer. Because that's what unlocks true business agility.   [0:07:22] Matt McRoberts: Spot on.   [0:07:22] Adam: I talk about customer data agility as a big aspect of where, you know, we help businesses kind of put this foundational piece in place that they now can respond to changing consumer behavior and not have to go, you know, unpack you know, twenty years of legacy investment. They are able to operate nimbly, kind of on top of their stack and bring in the technology that's going to get them to the next generation of growth and compete with, you know, a startup that doesn't have that legacy investment. Like, I don't care what the acronym you want to use is, like what are you here to do? Right. What's the job you perform? What are you unlocking for the business, and it's infrastructure. Some of the guys in the CDP space tend to say that like they've got built in modeling and use cases. That's great. I mean are you really unlocking agility or are you just solving a point application for somebody? And that's a lot of what we say. You know, are you focused on the right systems, the right outcomes for the business that's like ... That's what it all starts with, so let's not talk about tech for tech's sake. I'd kind of just like to get away from that in my perspective. Ecosystems are important because there's so much technology but, you know, they've got to be the right partners and they've got to be the right use cases and the right outcomes that you're trying to drive.   [0:08:29] Matt McRoberts: To Adam's point, being consumer, customer-focused, business outcomes focused, you hear about the retail apocalypse, you hear about disruption, you hear about transforMattion. And then just the associated fear mongering around that, I think we all get our fair share of subject lines that are quite startling in nature, you know, every category is under some massive disruption. And I think with any disruption comes opportunity. And I think, to Adam's, is helping customers understand and educate themselves on these literally new age paradigms around the idea of an ecosystem. I mean we've long talked, I loved Adam's point around what's the acronyms come with a tremendous amount of equity, and they also come with a tremendous amount of debt, right? CRM, right place, right channel, right time, has been around for generations, right? Decades. People have been talking about the construct of what CRM really is. I think Adam hit it on the head is like you can't deliver against that in days of old. Batch data, not in the right channel, not orchestration across channels. And now you have this expectation, especially from the consumer, is like there's all the importance of getting it right, but there's also the importance of getting it wrong, as well, as we will all talk about experiences as consumers, as well as business professionals, where we feel the experience was broken. And Adam hit it on the head. If you're data strategy is standardize, is uniform, is agile, then you're just inherently going to be able to deliver against these higher expectations with, as it relates to consumers. And so I think there is fear, right? It's like we've all seen the social amplification of a poorly executed campaign that consumers will again, is will very much put you out into their domain and talk about what went wrong. There's the idea of the death of retail and how over-pronounced that is. The evolution of direct to consumer brands, is like all that can be quite startling and scary to the traditional marketing organizations. So I think the opportunity for, that I think is incumbent upon out organizations, "How do you educate customers in a really powerful way?" "How do you make them feel informed, derive insights, so that they can start to make the best decisions, the best investments?"   [0:10:54] Adam: It's an interesting dynamic, too. Because, you know, as we look at just how this all plays out, you know. There is so much noise. And, you know, our opinion on all of this is like, we've got to just cut through the noise. Like we're going to help these businesses understand that this is not a threat or a risk, this is actually your opportunity to take your business to the next level and become the leader. It's' a competitive advantage, if done right. And so from us it's about how. We all know, that everybody wants their customer 360. You've got data silos, that's been around forever. The reasons are because the channels continue to proliferate. The platforms are continuing to proliferate. So what do you need? You need to have people that have really good understanding of the data that powers these different pieces, and great technology that can scale with your business, and then that can help you get to the end state that you want to get to. Label it whatever you want to.   [0:11:42] Matt McRoberts: Now it's a really good point is where CDPs have assumed a position of prominence is in the fallout of DMPs, right? Like [crosstalk]   [0:11:50] Adam: Take us back there.   [0:11:51] Matt McRoberts: Yeah, and like Adam, I'll kind of borrow from his story, right? Like see whether it's customer data platform or see whether it's customer relationship management. Like customer's at the forefront of that, and I think where DMPs lost their way was third party data. The world has very much calibrated around the power and the prominence of first party data. And I think, the idea of probabilistic models, that it's like "Ahh, I think maybe PJ is this person?" Is very much moved into this idea of really deterministic, and like the lifeline of that is literally around first party data. And so whether it's a CDP or a, you know, a new-age CRM tool like a Braze, is the literal lifeline is the ability to leverage first party data and it's been startling to see how quickly the concept of a DMP has distilled away into, again, the power of a CDP and again the juxtaposition is the data set. Like, how do you start to really leverage first party data, as opposed to make assumptions off dated antiquated third party data, which was historically the foundation of the DMPs of the worlds.   [0:13:01] Adam: The stakes if you do it wrong are just too high at this point. Like we talk about CX and customer experience, you know it definitely starts there. And that has business impact. But when you start talking about, you know, compliance and regularity impact and how you market to customers. And you look at GDPR and CCPA and just [inaudible] that's not going to stop either, right? So, again, when you kind of talk about the customer ... Centricity aspect of it, you have to have data at the core of how you build your business. And DMPs, they just didn't have those challenges. And again, they were great, and they still have some very applicable use cases. Not going to say like, you don't need a DMP for a lot of things. Like there's a lot of things they do do really well, but they weren't built to give you a framework for how you associate customer data to a user profile and to dynamically be able to use identities that are those customers that are provided in a compliant and regulatory safe way, with your first party marketing systems. It's' a very different challenge. And they're also not built in a way where it's like "That's going to change again". Like, what you got today is absolutely going to be different six months from now [crosstalk], twelve months from now. And so, do you want, yeah, kind of like your insurance layer, to a [crosstalk]. You've got to future proof, right? That's the move.   [0:14:14] PJ Bruno: Right on.   [0:14:14] Matt McRoberts: Yeah, no, I mean picking up on that, you know the kind of ongoing compliance environment is again is that in itself to be scary, right? Because it comes with the consumerization of that. There's a more pronounced understanding at the literal consumer level, right, like I know "Hey listen, as a consumer I want to be sensitive to what type of data is being tracked regarding me." And then you have this regulatory fear that if you get it wrong is like there's tremendous fines associated with that. So I think that kind of fear mongering, you can flip that and make that empowering and how do you help enterprises understand this ongoing onslaught of compliance evolution. And how are we all good corporate citizens to advance an all boats rise philosophy. We're dropping it.   [0:15:00] PJ Bruno: Dude, you guys are just firing shots across the table right now. So since we're in the way back machine a little bit here talking about DMPs, Adam I'd love to hear a little bit more about ... You know, what brought you to mParticle? Some of your time at MuleSoft, how did that world compare to this? Even like, three or four years ago, it seems like it was an entirely different business, right?   [0:15:18] Adam: Yeah. I mean if you look at even, yeah, probably the last eight years at this point. If you go back, this notion of you know, API led approach for how connectivity is accomplished for businesses, you know some companies were thinking about it, APIs were starting to be more proliferated in the ecosystem, but you weren't seeing the rapid adoption, you weren't seeing standardization around how people build APIs and all that. So, you know, we'll go back to that world where, you know, there's a lot of on premise technology and it's very much the world we still live in. So when I say go back, this is very much ongoing. I came from a place where as an operator I'd actually, I was doing a little bit of the marketing, we were 25 people, I was doing some of the sales, I Was doing some of the post sales. And I'm working across our marketing autoMattion system, Amarcetto, and then I've got Salesforce. Again, this is like almost pre-MuleSoft at this point. We've got ZenDesk for case management. And so I'm thinking about all these things, and, you know, I'm 24 years old, kid out of college, I don't really know what's going on here. I'm like "There's got to be an easier way to get the data to flow versus me manually sitting here." Fast-forward a couple years, I'm at MuleSoft, talking to these companies about how the challenges they have at scale, like you're an enterprise you have, you know, 50,000 people that are using employee management systems, Legacy SAP on prem ERP, right? You might have a custom database from IBM. And those challenges are very very different than the world we live in today. That challenge still needs to be accomplished. Nobody's ripping out those, you know, billions of dollars of investment where your data sat on premise and you've fell like you've got, you know, the right level of control over it. But you need to be able to augment that and compliment that. But I look at MuleSoft and you know, I think that they were kind of paving the way for what customer experience can be today, and they still do, right? Like they are helping businesses that have traditionally been very much kind of these on premise oriented businesses that didn't have a digital presence, you know, digitize their offline assets and you know make them available to the cloud through APIs. And what ends up happening is now you have a new breed of developer in the world. And the developers of today can take advantage of the assets that are in these systems that a 21 year old kid out of college would have no idea how to go program against this on premise system, to build a new cool cloud app. But because you've got these APIs that are exposed from the back end, you can now start doing that. Use that data to expose new applications. You know, fast forward a couple of years, you start thinking about "Okay, well there's this next generation of what is the customer experience connectivity challenge look like?" Because the proliferation of all the on prem systems and then these SAAS systems in the platforms that are actually where customers are engaging, it's the same kind of variation in terms of like where data's coming from, where data needs to get to. But the differences now we're thinking about it from a very customer-centric perspective. It's not about just developer re-usability. You know there's a, absolutely a place where [inaudible] compliment a company like that. Like, they're not even in the same space from this standpoint. Like, I know this better than anybody. But I get asked this all the time. Like, they're an unbelievable company and where we think about it it's about "Okay, how do you take it a step further and break down the customer data connectivity challenges?" And so insuring that the integrations that you're unlocking are oriented around the notion of a customer.   [0:18:27] PJ Bruno: It's just, it's just as silly to talk about customer centricity as kind of a new thing or like a pivot for companies as a focus. But ...   [0:18:36] Matt McRoberts: And that's been our thing, we've been saying that for years now, haven't we? You know that's been our-[crosstalk]   [0:18:41] PJ Bruno: I remember the first breakfast we had, it was like week one. Talking about customer centricity.   [0:18:45] Matt McRoberts: It seems so [crosstalk] two point, it seems so simple. Yeah. Literally our first breakfast talking about, we're BD guys, like how do you help kind of effectively, again, build an ecosystem strategy manager channel. And I thought, you know I'll give Adam the credit. It was like "Hey the lens should be what's best for the customer." Everyone wins. That's the reality. That's what's driving this growth. This kind of constant evolution of tech and kind of where it sits is like if you run it through the lens of the customer, you know, provides a natural north star, a natural compass for success.   [0:19:15] Adam: Yeah, otherwise we just make our own consumer experience shit. [crosstalk] Frankly, right? [crosstalk] Like the term CDP sounds big, it sounds scary, you know at the end of the day it's not about the acronym it's about the outcomes you can deliver for our company. And like [crosstalk] we just, we think about it very much from that standpoint. And ... You know everybody can build software today. Like, there'll be another CDP tomorrow that's claiming it. It's not about that. It's about what're you here to solve for the customer, you're here to unlock the ability to take care of data. That's ... That's what we're here to do. You know I think we've kind of blazed the trail in terms of how for this next generation of consumer facing brands they can do that. Buy you've got to start small, too.   [0:19:55] Matt McRoberts: I think you're right, though. The idea of transforMattion is a journey. It's going to be measured, and it's like it gets back to your point around agility, is like the concept of a platform allows you to fail face to iterate SAAS just inherently, because it's high growth, it's sell sell sell. But you also have to be quite realistic in terms of some of these transforMattive agendas are three, four, five years long. They're being driven by a new age services organization [inaudible] management consultancies, the next iteration of SIs. And I think you're right, you know. Again, I'd go back to that customer centricity. But being agile, being realistic, helping people to make those right decisions. Because you're right, if it's about understanding a CDP it's not the right dimension, it's about understanding how you can make your business more flexible, more agile, in these transforMattive times.   [0:20:46] PJ Bruno: Adam, Mattt, thanks for being with me today.   [0:20:48] Adam: All right, thank you.

Adam Croft is an Indie author and a counterpoint to anyone who says you can't make a living through Indie publishing. He's sold more than 1.5 million books and once bumped J.K. Rowling off the USA Today bestseller list. His ‘Knight and Culverhouse' thrillers have sold more than 250,000 copies worldwide, and his Kempston Hardwick mysteries have been adapted as audio dramas starring some of the biggest names in British TV. He's also published several books in his Indie Author Mindset series, a great tool for Indie authors. https://writerontheroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Indie-Author-1.jpg ()https://writerontheroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Indie-Author-2.jpg ()                       In this episode we discuss the following: Professionalism as an Indie Business & Creative hats Kindle v’s Wide Bookbub, FB & Amazon Ads Vellum & formatting Pre-orders, discounting and other stategies Thinking longterm Never giving up Levelling up & aiming higher Launch Strategies Branding & Marketing Keywords, tags an keeping your website up to date and more…   You can find out more about Croft and his books https://www.adamcroft.net/ (here.) And don’t forget, if you haven’t subscribed to Author Success Magazine, you can check it out here. Read Full Transcript Mel Adam Croft is an Indie author and a counterpoint to anyone who says you can't make a living through Indie publishing. He's sold more than 1.5 million books and once bumped J.K. Rowling off the USA Today bestseller list. His ‘Knight and Culverhouse' thrillers have sold more than 250,000 copies worldwide, and his Kempston Hardwick mysteries have been adapted as audio dramas starring some of the biggest names in British TV. He's also published several books in his Indie Author Mindset series, a great tool for Indie authors. Adam, tell us about your success. Adam I think you covered it pretty succinctly there! I've been doing this for ten years now. It's interesting that, as you say, people think you can't make a living Indie publishing, when all the data points to the fact that, on the whole, Indie publishers sell more books and earn more money than traditionally published authors. Research last year showed that the average traditionally published author makes about A$16,000 a year. That's remarkably low, and that's for an author with a long sought-after publishing contract from one of the big houses! The misconception that Indie publishing is a fallback option is completely false. I turn down up to half a dozen publishing contracts a year – just by looking at them, I can see that they're not going to earn me nearly as much as I can do myself. There's nowhere else I'd rather be! I have had a traditional publishing contract, and tried to get out of it as quickly as I possibly could. Mel I wanted to talk to you about taking control of your own career and owning the rights to your intellectual property. Adam It's vital, especially these days when things move so quickly. Handing over the rights to something for even a couple of years, let alone for life, is just barmy. There's just no reason to do it, because things change so quickly and you need to be agile. That's one of the problems with big publishers at the moment. They're not agile. They're still doing things the way they've been doing them for years. That's why I write a lot about mindset for Indie authors, because that's what stays relevant. Mindset is the bones of the matter. It's also something people skip over when they get too much into the detail of whether Facebook ads or BookBub ads are better, or whether it's this new thing. There's always new stuff coming out in this industry. Yes, you need to be able to be agile and respond to those things when they happen – but it's not all about the details. Getting the basics in place first is...

Adam Whiting, now a well-known yoga teacher around the world for his smart sequencing and anatomical focus in class, was at one time just trying to understand what was going wrong in his body. After seeing doctor after doctor in Manhattan, trying to diagnose massive dizzy spells, headaches and seemingly random spouts of numbness throughout his body, he was told by all accounts that his body was "fine." "I was diagnosed with having anxiety disorder and panic attacks," Whiting told me. "And it didn't fit for me, because it wasn't presenting itself as anxiety. I wasn't stressed. I wasn't depressed. And in my mind, at that point, my knowledge about anxiety disorder was so limited that I was sort of in denial." At that time, Whiting was working in New York as a musician. But in order to pay the bills, he worked nine-to-five at an insurance agency - a job which, he describes, was a major catalyst for his anxiety disorder and also the catalyst for him finding what he was truly meant to be doing. "A friend introduced me to asana, to postural yoga. After several months of just doing yoga...I could feel the anxiety start to unwrap itself. It was just the most amazing feeling of actually feeling safe in my own skin again." After feeling how yoga helped and healed him, he knew it was something he wanted to teach. From that point forward, he launched into his first teacher training. He began teaching right away, supplemented that with playing music, and didn't look back. And even though it became a greater hustle to make ends meet, it was all building towards a greater purpose, or Dharma, as you'll hear Whiting describe in the episode. He started teaching more and more classes, then began traveling for workshops, and then started running trainings and retreats, all in addition to playing music on the side and weaving it into his teaching repertoire. He describes it as all part of a tapestry in "whatever this career is." Whiting sums it up nicely, but his tapestry is composed of many moving pieces that all move him in the direction where he wants to take his career and his life. From moving to Australia to lead trainings alongside owner of Power Living Duncan Peak, to hosting retreats across the world, to moving back to the U.S. to lead his first 200-hour yoga teacher training on his own, Whiting lets meditation be his guide in setting goals for his future. And rather than setting traditional, tangible goals, Whiting is focused on following his Dharma. He sees those action items to achieve more as the logistics to align in order to go after something bigger. "I absolutely do have goals of running more teacher trainings, of having my advanced 300-hour training up and running, of having a tour in Australia and running retreats in Australia and Bali. But in my mind, I sort of think of them as logistical things to align so that I can look out past that and set my sails towards that journey with the knowledge that the winds are going to blow me somewhere completely unexpected, but also with the the trust that wherever I end up is where I'm supposed to be." Listen to Adam Whiting’s episode of the #WeGotGoals podcast to hear more about how he views Dharma, his purpose and duty in life, and the way he views goals that ladder up to that. Thanks to Cody Hughes for the photo used in this post. You can listen anywhere you get your podcasts (including Spotify!) and if you like what you hear, please leave us a rating or a review. And stick around until the end of the episode, where you’ll hear a goal from one of you, our listeners. (Want to be featured on a future episode? Send a voice memo with a goal you’ve crushed, a goal you’re eyeing, or your best goal-getting tip to cindy@asweatlife.com.)   --- Start transcript: [0:00] Jeana: Welcome to We Got Goals, a podcast by asweatlife.com, on which we talk to high achievers about their goals. I'm Jeana Anderson Cohen with me I have Maggie Umberger and Cindy Kuzma. Cindy: Good morning Jeana. Maggie: Morning Jeana. Jeana: Good morning. Maggie, this week you spoke to Adam Whiting. And you actually got to do that interview from home. Maggie: I did. I talked to Adam who is a yoga instructor. Who I think started teaching in Charlotte, North Carolina. Where I am from. And then has since moved to Australia and then back to North Carolina. But he continues to lead trainings and retreats and experiences across the world. In Bali. In Sri Lanka. In throughout Australia. He's taught at Wanderlust. He teaches in a lot of places. I've always just really respected his classes. I have loved them and I wanted to know a little more about his journey to yoga. How he got to the idea of wanting to teach internationally. Because that is a whole other track of teaching that I don't know a lot about. So I was really excited to get to talk to him and then I was home. So I got to do it in person before taking one of his awesome classes. Cindy: Oh, that's so great and it sounds like not just what he said but how he said it left an impact on you. Maggie: It did. And I didn't even say this to him after. So if he listens to this episode he'll be like, "Oh, she didn't tell me that." But I was noticing how mindful he was as he was answering any of the questions that I asked. Or response to something he would say. And thinking about that a little bit more. And even like closing his eyes. Taking time to answer mindfully. I don't do that always. And so I think we don't always love silence and we kind of mumble through things until we get to the point. But he was just really thoughtful about what he wanted to say. And then speaking to that versus talking around the point at all. So I thought that was probably a testament to, in general, his journey toward mindfulness as a teacher. He didn't begin teaching yoga with this meditation center. He actually talks about this in the episode of being very anxious and having anxiety attacks and not really sure of what was going on in his body. He was a musician in New York. Doing that grind of working other jobs. Sitting at a desk while he was trying to have gigs at night and make it as a musician in New York. He was getting beat down through that grind. And so meditation actually, when he was introduced to it just had him sitting with his thoughts more. And he didn't really like that. And so the Asana practice, the movement piece of yoga was what keyed him into a different way of life. Or a different kind of thought pattern. And that he could get out of that anxiousness mode. So the meditation piece came later as I learned. But it really is like a stronghold to his practice and how he teaches now. Jeana: And Maggie, Adam almost didn't do this interview at all, right? And this isn't the first time this has happened to us. Can you talk a little bit about why he sort of has trouble with the concept of goals? Maggie: Yeah, he asked me like, "Is it okay if I don't really have goals. If we do this interview?" And I always think any input on how people view goals is beneficial. However, you see it. Whether you notice or, you know, want to kind of go down the path that one of these goal-getters goes down. Or you kind of take that at face value and choose something different. That's what's cool about this podcast is there's so many different viewpoints. And he said that he's worked with brands and at companies where setting goals has been a central piece of the puzzle. And so he understands it. And he knows that there's benefits to setting a ten-year vision and going after it. And then really executing on your one-year goals to make that ten-year vision a reality. But for him, what's he's found along the way is that he is much more in tune with the idea of dharma. Dharma he says is widely known as your calling but really it's more like your duty. Like your purpose. Why are you put on this earth? And you've got to find that. You've got to search for that. And then you've got to do it. And so that's really what leads him. And that seems ambiguous. And that can be scary. Like that's scary for me to think about. Just, oh my god, what is the one reason I'm here on this earth. But that doesn't really scare him. That's more of like what lights him up. And I think when he speaks about that you'll hear just how much of a guiding force that is for and all of the teachers he has learned from and how teaches now. Jeana: Well what a mindful way to think about goals and we're so excited to hear this interview with Maggie and Adam. Keep those earpods in goal-getters. There's more to this episode at the end. We'll hear from people just like you out there achieving big goals or trying new things or maybe just setting big goals. [4:56] Maggie: So I'm here with Adam Whiting. Who I have had the pleasure of taking class from many times before he moved to Australia. He's a yoga instructor traveling around the world teaching yoga. Also a musician. You're many things Adam and I'm really, really excited to get to talk to you about your journey as not just a yoga teacher but I mean really as a teacher. For a lot of different people across the world. It's a pleasure to have you on our podcast. So thank you for joining us. Adam: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. It is completely my pleasure. Maggie: So I did take your class probably first six years ago. Before you moved. And I remember it was like a Wednesday night, 8-9pm or something. And it was a class that I felt like changed my life. I loved it. Adam: Oh wow. Maggie: Yeah, it was just like the transitions were so interesting and you had such a unique perspective. And I remember the savasana was like 15 minutes long. And I had never had that before. And I so appreciated it. So before we jump into talking all about goals. I would love for the listeners at home to just get to hear your journey to yoga, just really briefly. [6:14] Adam: Yeah, absolutely. The story sort of starts in New York City. And I was living there. I moved up there in 2001. And lived up there for a few years. While I was up there I started getting some pretty massive dizzy spells. Some pretty massive headaches. Some random parts of my body, my arm, my face, my legs, were going numb at random times. And I really wasn't sure what was happening. And after taking a tour around several medical professionals, neurologists, doctors, general doctors, MRIs, spinal taps, blood tests. They basically all came to the conclusion that my body was fine. And I was diagnosed with having anxiety disorder and panic attacks. And it didn't fit for me because it wasn't presenting itself as anxiety. Like I wasn't stressed. I wasn't depressed. And in my mind at that point, my knowledge about anxiety disorder was so limited that for me I was sort of in denial. Saying no these are physical symptoms. These are symptoms that I'm getting headaches, I'm getting dizzy. This is physical things. Something has to be physically wrong with me. And it took this really compassionate doctor speaking to me about. Well, she actually made a bargain with me. She's like listen. I understand where you're coming from but let's put you on these anti-anxiety medications for just a little bit. And if your symptoms go away then we can talk, right. Then if you come in believing that this is actually what's going on with you then we can work around different ways to sort of treat the symptoms. So I agreed. And lo and behold she was right. And immediately, I started sort of seeking different ways to address the issues. Medication worked wonderfully for me but I also knew that it wasn't something that I wanted to be reliant on long-term. And I knew that there were other answers out there for me. So I started looking at meditation as the means to heal and to move on from this. And to be completely honest with you, meditation in and of itself actually made it worse. Because I was at that point, just in this state of just. I didn't realize how stressed I was. I didn't realize how just overflowing with anxiety I was. This was just post September 11th and the city was in turmoil. And the world was in turmoil. And to be there during that time. I didn't really realize how deeply those rivers of anxiety were flowing. So when I was asked to sit in the stillness of meditation it actually triggered more anxiety. And it triggered more panic attacks. So I moved away from that. And then finally, you know, a dear friend of mine introduced me to Asana, to a postural yoga. And after several months of just doing postural yoga I could finally start to feel that sort of barbed wire of anxiety, you know, start to unwrap itself from my being. And it was just the most amazing feeling of actually feeling safe in my own skin again. But like I said, not realizing how unsafe I felt. And then I started exploring more meditation with the postural yoga. And immediately when I felt how amazing this practice was. And how much it served to help me and heal me. I knew it was something that I wanted to teach. Pretty immediately, I knew that this was calling out to me to share. So after getting my first yoga teacher training certification. I just jumped into teaching right away. And, you know, I was young and fresh and so passionate about it. It's funny looking back on those first classes those, you know, six, seven, eight years ago. I sort of shake my head a little bit. Of like, oh my god those classes must have been awful. But I think that's sort of true in any sort of medium you care so much about. And as you grow and evolve and mature, your teaching and your skill and your craft evolves and matures. So hopefully, eight years from now when I look back at the classes I'm teaching now I'll be appalled because I've learned that much more in the eight years. So after teaching. I was in Charlotte, North Carolina for a few years teaching. And I got this amazing opportunity to teach in Australia. This wonderful man, teacher, business owner. His name is Duncan Peak, owns Power Living Australia Yoga. And that is a group of nine studios around Australia and New Zealand. And after some sort of back-and-forth and a wonderful trip to Australia. I agreed to move out to Sydney and help coach their teachers and lead their teacher trainings. And travel around to the cities in Australia where they have studios. And teach classes, run workshops, run teacher trainings and, you know, also run retreats in Bali for our teacher trainings. So it was an amazing few years of really quick growth. Really rapid education on my part. And just to be in that part of the world was unbelievable. It's still some of the most beautiful places I've ever been are there. So I lived there for a few years and it was absolutely amazing. But towards the end of those few years, I could feel these little strings pulling my heart back to America. My family's here and we'd always been really, really tight. And in Australia, just being able to come back once a year was amazing but it wasn't quite enough. And there were some issues with family stuff that were really pulling me back to be home. To be closer with family. And it also sort of aligned really beautifully with my desire to be an independent yoga teacher. Working out in Australia was absolutely amazing but I was also working for another brand. And it was an amazing brand but it was a brand that wasn't Adam Whiting or Adam Whiting Yoga. It was another brand. And there's always been a craving inside of my journey and my career to just speak from my own voice and teach my own trainings in the way that I've learned. And the way that I want to share. Without really, it might sound blunt, but without really having to answer to anybody else. So in moving back to America and back to Charlotte. And running my first teacher training here which is an independent Adam Whiting Yoga Teacher Training. It feels amazing to be able to, you know, put my stamp on the certificates. And say that, you know, these students learned from me. And to be able to craft my own calendar and run my own events. And just sort of again, it sounds blunt, but not to have to answer to anybody else. To be able to craft my own future in the way that I want it is really encouraging and I'm really excited about the next few years. Maggie: I hear probably something that a lot of people would nod their head at and say that they want to be in charge of their own destinies too. Adam: Absolutely. [14:28] Maggie: And that's a huge, like. I can imagine that feeling, that calling inside you. Cause I feel it in me. And I feel like so many people. Especially now, that there are so many avenues to create your own path. That it isn't the 9-5 structure of jobs as much as it used to be. Especially in the recent years. So I wonder, what for you was some of the helpful guides in pushing along this path. To create it for yourself. Because while I know a lot of people want it. It's another to actually go for it and do it. [15:02] Adam: Yeah, absolutely. It's I think my journey is not quite a typical journey. My journey started playing the guitar. As you said, I'm a musician. And I started playing the guitar when I was eleven or twelve. And I was only playing it for a couple of years. And just by sort of coincidence and I think we'll talk a little bit more about coincidences later. The guitar teacher that I had was graduating from college. And he said, "Okay. I'm leaving you. I can't teach you anymore. But there's this amazing school. And I want you to go down for a summer session." So and that was University of North Carolina School of the Arts. And it was between my eighth and ninth grade year. And I studied there for a few weeks. And it was my first sort of time away from home. And I remember I was really homesick. And I think I cried a lot on the phone with my mom. It was terrifying being away from home that young for me. But then basically by the time I got back home from the training or the summer session, the guitar teacher at this university had called my mother. And said that he wanted me to study there full-time. So I studied at this university, at this conservatory for seven years. Through high school, through my undergrad. And immediately that's when I moved up to New York City. And when I got to New York was the first time I ever had that real 9-5 job. And, you know, like any musician in New York, especially. You're a musician which means you're unloading trucks. Or you're a waiter. Or you're, you know, working data entry at an insurance agency. Which is what I was doing in a cubicle from 9-5. And I think that working that job was one of the catalysts for one. One of the catalysts for my anxiety disorder and my stress because I was so deeply unhappy there. But because of that was the catalyst for me getting out. You know, and I remember the day that I quit and it was. I remember walking around. It was in downtown New York, in Manhattan. And I remember walking around after I had resigned. And I was sort of like halfway smiling, halfway crying, like halfway like I don't know how I'm going to make a living now. But I had no choice. It was one of those things that comes up with me quite often is I don't have a choice right now. So this is the path that I'm going to walk down. So from there on out, I pretty much just started hoofing it as a musician. I started teaching lessons. I started performing as much as I could. I recorded an album. And I was still unloading trucks at a Crate & Barrel in midtown at the same time. So I was still working jobs to pay my rent. But there was always this sort of, just this hustle, of you've got to do this. Because you don't really have a choice. And then I moved back to Charlotte. And when I moved back to Charlotte from New York. One, the cost of living was significantly less. So I was really surprised that I could make a living as a musician at that point. You know, gigging on the weekends and teaching lessons. And then teaching yoga. And all of a sudden teaching yoga so sort of started to take precedence. And I started teaching more and more classes. And then I started traveling for workshops. And then I started running trainings. And then retreats. And it was sort of this beautiful crescendo where more and more yoga opportunities were coming and the music opportunities were sort of fading away. And what's beautiful now is that they've both sort of come together. Like I'm still playing music, we're running Kirtans. This, you know, traditional chants in yoga. And recording a cd. And it's sort of come together in this beautiful tapestry of whatever this career is. But I think what you said is really important. Is that I think the definition of career is really changing. That the idea of that 9-5 job that my dad had where he worked for Federal Express from out of college until the day he died. Really it still exists but it's not. I don't think it's really the stronghold that it used to be. And now there's sort of this freedom of creating what you want to create for your life, for your job, for your career. And it still terrifies me. Because I'm sitting here. You know, meandering into my late thirties. And really happy with my career and really happy with where everything is right now. But I'm also thinking about retirement funds and do I want to be teaching yoga when I'm in my fifties. Or what's going to happen and how am I going to create this financial stability that. You know, if I did follow the path of my father or my grandfather that they had the retirement funds and the IRAs and all of this stuff set up which I don't have. And part of me gets really terrified about that and then part of me also is just sort of trusting, right? Part of me just sort of thinks. Okay, well here we are. And this is the path that I'm moving through in this lifetime. And, you know, these first few decades I've figured it out. So hopefully I'll continue to figure it out. Maggie: I think it's a good mentality. I mean if your past is any track record for the future, you will figure it out. So let's talk about big goals. The biggest question that we ask on the podcast is what's one big goal that you've accomplished that you're proud to say that you did and how you got there? [21:07] Adam: It's interesting. I knew that you were going to ask this question and I've spent some time these past couple of days sort of hovering around that question. And I really didn't come up with one goal. Because I'm not really the type of person that sort of makes a goal list. Or a vision chart. And, you know, through my teaching and yoga I've interacted with several brands who have put me through that sort of, you know, vision statements and ten-year goals and five-year goals and one-year goals. And I think that's very helpful and I think there's a lot to be said for that. But at the same time even when I was doing it. It wasn't really lighting me up. Like it wasn't inspiring me for the future. For creating something that moved me closer towards whatever those goals are. It actually sort of intimidated me a little bit. So I was like well I don't know. I don't want to set this goal that I'm not sure of this house or this family or this career. Like I want these goals and I want these visions but I also want to be able to flow. And if I didn't have that idea of flow in my life. I wouldn't have ended up in Australia or Bali or back here. And I don't think I'd be where I was right now. So there's something to be said for. In yoga, we call it Sankalpa and Sankalpa means intention. In yoga, we speak towards the word dharma a lot. I think it's softly and steadily turning into a phrase that might be a bit overused these days. Or maybe mistranslated is a better way of saying it. But in dharma, a lot of people think of dharma as being your calling. But the more accurate translation actually means your duty. I think that's a little bit more accurate because it's not just what am I inspired to do. It's like what do I have to do? Like why was I put here on this earth? And I have to with everything that I have and with my entire being and with my entire life I have to find that. I have to find my calling. Why I'm here. It's my duty. And for me, instead of charting out ten-year, five-year, one-year. The way that I've sort of navigated through it is more silence. More meditation. More introspection. And when I sort of back away and take those times of stillness and of meditation. I feel like I'm shedding away the layers of the external thought patterns. Of my doubts and of my worry. And of that constant negative chatter that lives in my head and a lot of other people's heads. To just sort of sit in my center. To sit in my being for a little while. And to actually listen. And to listen to what my heart truly wants. And it's in that listening that my compass sort of sets itself. And what the yogic tradition believes is that once you find that connection to your source. That connection to your calling. And you notice, we could several words here. We could use the word the universe, we could use the word divinity, we could use the word grace. But when you start to notice the essences of that force, that power, that energy resonating in your life. That energy starts to notice you noticing her. And she begins to unfold for you. And what I mean by that. One of my favorite quotes which may or may not be tattooed somewhere on my body in some way. Is an Emerson quote which is, "The world makes way for the man who knows which way he is going." It really resonates with the Vedic knowledge, with the yogic knowledge of once you have discovered your dharma. Your path down this life and you set your sails and you start moving in that direction. The world has a beautiful way of creating the path for you. And it's not going to be the path that you think it is. You know, it's not going to be the route that you think you should be going down. But it is a path that if you trust it, it will lead you to somewhere beyond your wildest expectations. So in goals, I absolutely do have goals. Goals of, you know, in 2019 running some more teacher trainings. Of having my advanced 300-hour training up and running. Of having a tour in Australia. And running retreats in Australia and Bali. And these are sort of, I guess we can consider them short-term, one-year goals. But in my mind I sort of think of them as logistical things to align. So that I can sort of look out past that. And like I said set my sails towards that journey with the knowledge and the expectations that the winds are going to blow me somewhere completely unexpected. But also with the trust that wherever I end up is where I'm supposed to be. Maggie: I have a two-part question. Or maybe two separate questions. Adam: Okay. Maggie: First, do you know what your duty is now? [26:55] Adam: Okay, interesting. So good. I'm leading a teacher training here in Charlotte. And we just, and I think a couple weekends ago we just had this conversation. There's this beautiful book. It's called The Great Work of Your Life by Stephen Cope. And it's this modern sort of retelling. Not necessarily retelling but a modern analysis of the Bhagavad Gita. And it talks about all of these characters who've found their calling. And they pursued it. And we had this big conversation with our trainees. And some of them knew and some of them didn't. And some of them were really stressed out that they didn't know. And some of them were really disappointed that they didn't. And some of them weren't sure that it was right. And it was really revealing. And we have a retreat coming up in a couple of weeks where we will go through a process of finding their dharma. Or I don't know that puts a lot of pressure on the retreat. Let's say getting closer to discovering it. In my journey in discovering it and what I've found. And this is through working with an amazing book called the Four Desires written by an amazing yoga teacher named Rod Stryker. He puts you through several writing exercises. In several different manners which pulls away sort of this layered thought of what dharma really is. And I think in Western wrapping we often think of dharma as your career, like your job. And if not that, maybe it's your family. And if not that, maybe it's something along those lines. And when I went through this, these exercises through this book and through working with Rod Stryker. I came upon what he calls your dharma code. And it takes several sort of drafts. And several pages of writing and crossing out and editing and writing and crossing out and editing. And I came upon one, and the person I was working with had me read it out loud. And as soon as I read it out loud. I looked and she looked at me. And she said, "Nope, that's not it." And my feelings were really hurt. And I was like what do you mean, this is it? And she asked me, "Were you editing yourself along the way when you were writing? Were you trying to steer the ship in a different direction? Were you editing along the way?" And I was like "No...yes." And I looked back at what I was writing and I was like totally I was. Because I thought I knew the answer already. And I wasn't leading myself into being vulnerable and open. So we tore it up. We started over again. Rewrote it all over again. And then at the end of this process. She said, "Okay, read it to me again." And the dharma code that I wrote was, "I share my story with the world without hesitation or doubt." And as soon as I said that I saw her face light up. And my face lit up. And she said, "Did you feel that?" And I was like, "I don't know what it was but I felt it." And it was just as soon as I read it, it was this surge of energy running through every cell in my body. You know an energy that we call alignment. And I was like oh, it totally redefined this idea of dharma for me. It's that I've always been a storyteller. As a musician, as a songwriter, as a yoga teacher or a workshop and a training facilitator. It's always been about a story. And sharing a story. And when this dharma code came about saying I share my story with the world without doubt or hesitation. It landed in a way that it didn't define me. In a way of putting boundaries around me. But it defined me in a way of lifting me up and giving myself permission to pursue these dreams with everything that I have. And that's the second teaching of the Bhagavad Gita which we said before. You know, the first teaching is find your dharma. Find why you were put here. Because you being in a body that is breathing and alive right now is nothing short of a miracle. And there's a reason for it. So step one is to find that. And then step number two is to pursue it with everything that you have. With absolutely every cell of your body. And in finding this dharma code. That little, short little sentence. It was, it felt like somebody put a match to my fuse. And all of a sudden just this rocket was about to go off. It felt unreal. Maggie: Like you could almost get out of your own way. Adam: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I was in my way more than I wasn't. And I still am, right? It still happens where I'm just like tripping over myself. Because my mind and my chatter and my doubt gets in the way. But, you know, all it takes is that, those moments of daily meditation and coming back to that dharma code. Which is like, oh yeah. I get it now. Maggie: That actually is a good segway to my other piece of the question. Because I'm interested in hearing you talk about the space in between where you went from being anxious by sitting with yourself and trying to meditate. And then to having such solace with meditation and really cherishing that time. How did you find that? Or how did that progression in your life happen? [33:09] Adam: Yeah, absolutely. For the first several years of my yoga practice, it was really predominantly a postural yoga practice. It was an Asana practice. And meditation was an off and on thing. You know, I would do meditation when I was in teacher training or when I was studying or when I was on a retreat with my teacher. And it was something that I always knew the benefit of. But never committed to a daily practice. And then several years ago, I made a trip to India during a pilgrimage called the Kumbh Mela. And the Kumbh Mela is every twelve years. It's this pilgrimage at the banks of the Ganges River. In a little town Allahabad. Not that little. But it is the biggest gathering of human beings in the planet. I think it's some 80 million people make the pilgrimage to what's known as the Sangam. And the Sangam is the confluence, the joining together of the Ganges River, the Jamuna River and the mystical Sarasvati River. And every twelve years, it's the alignment of the planets is said that that spot in the planet is the third eye of the planet. And every twelve years, the third eye opens. So if you are lucky enough to bathe yourself in the Ganges at this time. It's said it's so holy that your sins are forgiven, your children's sins are forgiven and your grandchildren's sins are forgiven. It was beautiful. It was amazing. It was one of those pilgrimages that words can't really capture. We were staying, our campgrounds for this pilgrimage was about a kilometer downriver from the actual Kumbh Mela. But there were millions and millions and millions of people in this festival ground, pilgrimage grounds and there were 24-hour chants happening. Fires burning. Just millions and millions of people. And that energy was just rolling down the Ganges. The smoke was rolling down the Ganges. You could hear the chants. And it just sounded, in the middle of the night you would wake up and you would just hear [...]. Of just these chants happening and the energy was palpable. It was amazing. And I was there with Rod Stryker and another great teacher. His teacher, Pandit Rajmani Tigunait. And it was there that I really found my meditation practice. We worked a lot with mantra. We worked a lot with different sort of meditation techniques. That finally just sang. You know, it felt like music to me. It felt like a song. And I think, you know, in the years prior when I was working in yoga and trying to find this meditation practice. I couldn't really find it because I didn't really have a teacher. Like I didn't have someone to teach me the technique. You know, it's like trying to do a handstand but you're just alone in your room. And you're just flinging yourself up and down. And there is nobody there to tell you the technique to get into it. Meditation was the same way. So I finally had found a teacher. I had found somebody to lead me into the technique and to guide me and to answer my questions and to relieve my doubt. And so for years after that, I was meditating in this japa mantra practice. Which is a repetition of a mantra. And it's the practice that I've relied on heavily throughout these last several years. And then when I was in Australia I met another amazing yoga teacher, meditation teacher. And his name is Jonni Pollard. And his organization is called One Giant Mind. And his manner and his way of speaking about meditation and teaching mediation is profound in it's simplicity. What he is doing now is he working to strip away all of the pretenses, all of the structure on meditation. That for a lot of people can seem really daunting and really intimidating. And his technique is so simple but it's so refined. So I've started studying with him. And I'm actually right now moving through his teacher training to become a certified meditation teacher in One Giant Mind. And it's this very simple mantra. It's this very simple beautiful process. That you just sit down for twenty minutes twice a day. And right now, that's the practice for me that's having the most profound effects. You know, I will always be a fan of postural yoga. I will always be a fan of moving my body and finding freedom through that movement. But right now, in this sort of journey through the meditation practice which is now spanning a couple decades. Meditation is where I find the clarity, the peace, and the reconnection to myself that I'm so often missing. And in trying to teach others now. In my teacher trainings and in the retreats, the skill and the craft of meditation. It really is learning a new practice and it's creating and cultivating these new habits. But without fail if I can get one of my students to sit down for 30 days straight of meditation, then they're in it. They're in it for life. Because within those 30 days they have noticed such a profound shift in their connection to joy, in their calmness, in their balance, in just their way of being. The way that Jonni Pollack often says it, "You know those points in your life where, you find yourself just happy for no reason. Like you're sitting and watching a sunset. Or you're walking your dog. Or something beautiful happens and just this like really gentle wave of contentment and happiness sort of waves over you, washes over you." He says that's your natural way of being, right? That should not be an anomaly. That should be your regular state of being. And connecting to a meditation practice lets you access that state of being with such ease. And it's been a practice that has saved me several times. And like I've said, I love Asana and I love moving my body and I love sweating. But for me now, the postural yoga practice and the meditation practice are two sides of the same coin that I don't really want to live without either of them. [40:34] Maggie: So the last question which you sort of touched on. And I think maybe it wraps up a lot of the things that we're talking about of kind of getting out of your own way. Or being able to sit to really know where you want to go and where you can live out your duty or your dharma. Maybe that kind of comes up in this question of what's a big goal that you see for the future, that you want and why do you want it? Or how do you plan on getting there? [41:01] Adam: Yeah. About a year ago. Or it's been a little bit more now. A year and a half to two years ago. I had a pretty catastrophic injury. My L4/L5 disc blew and the extruded disc actually wrapped around one of my spinal nerves. And I lost function of my left leg and I lost feeling in my left leg. And coming from a state of yoga aware and movement where I really define myself as a mover. As a postural yoga practitioner. To have that taken away from me was heartbreaking. I mean the pain was excruciating. But it also forced me to redefine where I stand as a teacher in this practice. And after the surgery. And after the rehab. And reintroducing my body into this movement practice was so enlightening. One in terms of what my body was capable of doing. Or more accurately what it's no longer capable of doing. How to be okay with that. But also looking back over the past ten years of moving my body in Asana and being able to see really clearly with. Hindsight is 20/20. Being able to see really clearly the movements that I shouldn't have been doing. The transitions that I shouldn't have been doing. The fighting my body to try to get deeper mobility. To try to get a deeper forward fold. To try to get the legs behind my head. That, you know, in hindsight really was just ego. It was really me just fighting to prove something that was really pointless in the first place. And what I find now that I'm back on the mat, back in my practice. Is that I'm still so inspired by the movement. I'm still so inspired by the Asana. And it is an exploration and it is a joy to find new ways to move. It's an art. It's just like music. It's like songwriting. It's creating a sequence and moving your body through the sequence. It's dance. It's songwriting. It's poetry. But what I've found is that there needs to be science behind the art. There needs to be knowledge behind the art. And in all bluntness and in all openness. I think that is lacking, that knowledge is lacking. Especially in the new yoga teachers around today. Which we were all there. I was a new yoga teacher. And I was just sort of making it up as I went along. But one of my goals now is to. Number one always keep refining the way that I teach. And to keep building my knowledge base so that my knowledge of anatomy, of the biomechanics of the body, of how bodies are supposed to move and how to keep people safe is always growing. But now on top of that. Now that I've become. I've been teaching teachers how to teach. My goal is to educate yoga teachers in how to keep people safe. In how to try to in as many instances as possible avoid the injuries that we all get so often. I mean, yoga is movement and in movement, there is inherent risk. Right, there is inherent risk in hamstring pulls or wrist injuries or shoulder injuries. Like it's going to happen. And, you know, if you compare yoga to American football the risk level is quite low. But what I see is that the level of injuries in this practice is much higher than it should be. And it's much higher than it should be because I think there are inherent flaws in the structure of how we train and certify teachers. Which is a really long conversation probably for another day. But I think it's really important to, number one allow the people who are so passionate about yoga and who really want to teach the yoga to allow them to teach. But I want to in my trainings guide them to teach in a way that is knowledgeable and educated and is capable of moving people through their practice in a safe and empowering way. So in creating my 200-hour program and in 2019 unveiling my advanced 300-hour program. That's really the goal of it. Number one, get people meditating. And as always learn about the philosophy, the vedas, the mantra, learn about the heart of the yoga. But at the same time heavily immerse them in anatomy, in functional anatomy, in alignment. In getting people to understand what safe movements are. What aren't safe movements. What transitions we shouldn't be combining. And how we can continue to watch this beautiful methodology of yoga grow in the amazing expansive way that it has been growing. But to ensure that it's growing in a mindful and responsible way. Maggie: So Adam, how can people find you and listen to you through your new cd? And keep up with where you are and where you're going? Adam: Yeah. So the website is adamwhitingyoga.com and everything on social media. Well, Instagram and Facebook is Adam Whiting Yoga as well. So Adam Whiting Yoga and you can find me anywhere. And the new cd is hopefully coming out sometime in 2019. Fingers crossed. I'm really excited about that. But the partners that I'm working at are touring musicians in Australia. So we have just a little bit to go. So hopefully the stars will align and we'll be able to get that sooner rather than later. Maggie: Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast, We Got Goals. And it was an honor to have you. Adam: The pleasure was all mine. Thanks so much. Cindy: He goal-getters. It's Cindy Kuzma. Just checking in to let you know that we're about to play another goal from one of you, our listeners! If you would like to be featured on an upcoming episode of We Got Goals here on A Sweat Life. You can record a voice memo with a goal you've set, a goal you've achieved, just maybe your dharma, your purpose. Whatever you want to tell us about that's related to goals. Record that, send it to Cindy@aSweatLife.com. And we could feature you on an upcoming episode. Thanks for listening and here is one of your goals. Britney: I am Britney and I am from Southern Indiana. One goal getting strategy that's worked very well for me is keeping my goals to myself. Which is a little different then what some people do. But I've found that it helps me because it helps me make more attainable goals rather than goals I share on social media that maybe are a little more grandious then they should be or aren't quite as fleshed out as they should be. You know, we're in the age where we want to share everything with everyone on social media. And sometimes in my experience, it's worked best for me to just keep it between me and myself. A really good example was when I was finding my new job. I kept it kind of vague when I talked to people about it. And I just said you know I'm hunting. And I wrote down everything I wanted out of my job. I wanted very specific benefits and I wanted a very specific atmosphere and culture. And I just kind of went after it and found it. And it was nice because I wasn't cluttering it with other people's kind of input. And it was just me and my goal. [50:00] Cindy: This podcast is asweatlife.com production and it’s another thing that’s better with friends. So please, share it with yours. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts including on Spotify. And while you’re there if you could leave us a rating or a review we would be so grateful. Special thanks to Jay Mono, for our theme music, to our guest this week, Adam Whiting, to TechNexus for the recording studio, and to Kathy Lai for editing. And of course to you, our listeners.

Well, the marketing people. I was stumbling over my words, but, you know, it’s the greatest thing in the world and we all fall for marketing. You know, a huge buck, gorgeous green field, and you got too have X. If you have X in this bottle, if you put this on your thing, or you plant with Y, you’re going to have…you know, you’re going to have Booners, you know, out the network. I’ll guarantee you if there’s no sperm, there’s no studs in the forest that have 180-class genes, you ain’t going to have it. Adam: That’s right. That’s right. And, you know, I’ll add to that. You got to give them what they want, but you also got to give them what they need, and then you got to give them what you can provide them. I mean if they need carbs and you don’t have any open ground, as far as you can’t give them corn or you can’t give them soybean. So we’ll digest this, I guess, the best we can from you got to give them what they want and you got to give them what they need. And, as we talked pre-recording, I think one of the biggest things we see with our Land & Legacy consulting business is looking at something and going, “Okay”… When we look at food plots, 9 times out of 10 we’re planting food plots because we want to have more hunting success. We want to be able to at least attract more deer on the property. Maybe we’re not hunting over it, but we know that there’s more deer in the area because that food plot is there. 9 times out of 10 that’s why we’re planting food plots, is just so we can increase our hunting success. Now when it comes to “give them what they want,” let’s look at it and say, “Okay, what do they want? What do they need?” And when we look at what’s in the neighborhood, that’s one of the biggest things. I hunt…one of the properties I hunt is a working cattle farm and there is alfalfa fields, I don’t know how many acres. Lots and lots and lots and lots of acres devoted to alfalfa because the farmer bales it for hay. So it’s food for the cows, but it’s also a great lagoon so it’s great forage for the deer. But if I was to plant a clover food plant, which is right there providing the same thing, it’s providing protein, I’m not going to have very good success hunting that because they have 200-plus acres of alfalfa that they can go eat on. And so coming in that little clover patch isn’t doing them any good. So look at what’s lacking in the neighborhood as far as what the deer need, and then try to fill that void. Don’t look at it as, “Well, this is just what I’m going to plant and let’s hope that it’s fantastic,” and expect to see the same food plot that you see on the bag and the same buck standing in it that you see on the bag. Bruce: Because that just doesn’t work. And, as we said before… It might work, I better put a comment in there. Adam: It might work. Bruce: It might work, it might work. That was my disclaimer, it might work. But, you know, you think, about things and, you know, every…you know, July comes and everything has grown and Deer are out there, their coats are slick and they’re looking good, and the fawns are romping and stomping, and some bucks are starting to, you know, grow out. And you’re getting some, you know, what’s coming along and you start dreaming about your hit list and August comes, and then all of a sudden something changes. And in your opinion what changes? It’s at that magic time all of a sudden, “Where did all the deer go?,” sort of kind of. Adam: Well, I think I know where you’re going with this because we talked about it a little bit, but for me in the Ozark Mountains of Southern Missouri, notorious…I mean just as the sun comes up every morning, the same thing happens almost every single year. Every single year, I guess I should say and clarify that. But every single year, early fall

Interview Transcript Available Below Adam McHugh is a spiritual director, chaplain, speaker, and retreat leader. The author of Introverts in the Church: Finding Our Place in an Extroverted Culture, he is an ordained Presbyterian minister, having earned a Masters of Divinity and Masters of Theology in Greek New Testament from Princeton Theological Seminary. He is also the author of The Listening Life: Embracing Attentiveness in a World of Distraction, and lives in Santa Barbara, California. Episode Highlights 4:30 Becoming an ordained minister 7:30 What led to writing Introverts in the Church 10:50 Explanation of introversion and extroversion 16:00 Problems that introverts experience at church 19:00 Understanding the discomfort of personal vulnerability and sharing beliefs as an expression of faith 22:00 Introverts generally prefer depth over breadth 24:00 The power of listening: experience at a hospital 30:00 Introverts and small talk 34:00 How introverts approach dealing with conflict and decisions 40:00 Silence, reverence, and the internal experience compared to active social environments 45:20 Cultural clash of introvert and extrovert leaders: overcoming stereotypes and encouraging introverts to be leaders 48:50 Reaching out to invite introverts to participate Links Adam's Website Introverts in the Church: Finding Our Place in an Extroverted Culture The Listening Life: Embracing Attentiveness in a World of Distraction Interview Transcript LS: Today we are communicating with Adam McHugh in California. How are you, Adam? ADAM: Doing very well. How about yourself? LS: Very good. Did I say your last name correctly? ADAM: You got it. LS: All right. Very nice, very nice. Now, you are, tell us (00:04:00) a little bit about what we need about know about you. The big thing I guess on this podcast we generally have LDS or Mormons on as guests, but you are not a Mormon. So what are you? ADAM: It is true. I am an ordained Presbyterian minister. Though in truth I go to an Episcopal church. LS: Nice. ADAM: But I was ordained in the Presbyterian church about 12 years ago. LS: Nice. And so what is the, when you say you're ordained, (00:04:30) what does that mean? Does that mean you went to seminary for awhile or what does that even mean? ADAM: It means they made me jump through about a thousand hoops, is basically what that means. I went to Princeton theological seminary and that is required for ordination, not Princeton. But going to seminary, getting a master's of divinity. I also stuck around for another year and got a masters of theology and Greek New Testament as well and had to do 2 church internships and one internship at a hospital as a chaplain, was actually (00:05:00) very instrumental in my future calling. And yeah. And then I had to go to about a thousand meetings in order to get approved. LS: Wow. Wow. Intense. ADAM: It was a, I would never do it again. I'm glad I was young when I went through all that because now it sounds exhausting. LS: So does that mean, I mean, your day to day or are you some type of pastor to a church or what's your day to day job now? ADAM: I have the title now, you know, writer and speaker and retreat leader (00:05:30) is really how I identify myself and certainly connected to churches and all that. So certified spiritual director as well, but I don't have a formal preaching ministry or not working full time. LS: And is that the typical path for someone who's gone through the different education you've gone to, that they end up with, some, running some type of a church or ADAM: Usually or else, you know, working as a chaplain of some kind, which I did for a few years. But generally, you know, a Presbyterian minister is going (00:06:00) to be a minister at a particular church and you're, it's not like other denominations where you move around from church to church, you sort of stay in one place and you're hired more like a ...

I want to talk about the word Alcoholism, more specifically, the tail end of that word, the ISM- Incredible Short Memory, the painful acute memories are sobriety fuel.  We cannot do this alone.  Adam, with 57 days since his last drink, shares his story   SHOW NOTES   [8:50] Paul Introduces Adam.  I’m 36; I live in New Hampshire, married with 2 awesome sons and a beautiful wife.  I love being outdoors.  I began drinking in my early twenties.  I was drinking to get away from stress problems.  It got to the point where I was drinking everyday.    [15:05] Paul- What was different on July 17th?  Was it a shift in mindset? Did you go to an AA meeting?   Adam- It was more of a mindset.  Everywhere I looked there was something about recovery.  It was my mind putting it out there.  I created the accountability, and it made it harder to go back on.   [21:40] Paul- Was there some sense of discomfort before you quit drinking?  What was the source of pain?   Adam-  It wasn’t anything huge.  I called myself a high bottom drunk.  There wasn’t anything that set it off.  I was sick of relying on it everyday.  Waking up every morning sleepier than I should be.  It became too much a part of my life, and I didn’t want it there anymore.    [23:56] Paul- What was it like the first 24 hours? The first couple of days, the first week?   Adam- It was not the easiest time in my life.  I had a little bit of the shakes, some headaches the first 3-4 days was the worst of it.  I remind myself how great I feel now.   [26:53] Paul- What’s on your bucket list in sobriety?  What do you want to achieve with this new life you’ve been given?   Adam-  I want to spend more time with my family Instead of playing with the kids, the first thing I would do would be to grab a drink.  They are 3 and 7 years old right now.  Be closer to them.  This time of their life I really want to remember.     [29:45] Rapid Fire Round   Did you ever have an “oh-shit” moment?  Just realizing that everyday that was the first thing when I got home from work that I wanted to do. What’s your plan moving forward?  Just to keep enjoying life, get to know my kids better, and getting healthy. What’s your favorite resource in recovery? It’s the Recovery Elevator Podcast. What’s the best advice you’ve ever received (on sobriety)? The accountability.  Creating that accountability and making it a real thing. What parting piece of guidance can you give listeners who are in recovery or thinking about quitting drinking?  Suck it up and talk to somebody.  It has to be someone that you care about and trust and respect.  Once you make it a real thing, you will not want to let them down. You might be an alcoholic if you lie to your wife when you are sick as a dog, because you know she will say you don’t need that beer tonight.   Resources mentioned in this episode: Connect with Cafe RE- Use the promo code Elevator for your first month free Sobriety Tracker iTunes Sobriety Tracker Android Sober Selfies! - Send your Sober Selfie and your Success Story to info@recoveryelevator.com     “We took the elevator down, we gotta take the stairs back up, we can do this!”