Podcasts about tracy you

Reimagining Success: Unlocking Exponential Growth with Tracy PoiznerSummary:In this episode of the Stay on Course podcast, we're joined by Tracy Poizner, a visionary leader and expert in helping high performers achieve exponential growth. Tracy is the founder of Space Time Alchemy, a 12-month teaching program that helps individuals unlock their full potential and achieve remarkable success. Tune in to discover the key ingredients for success that Tracy has identified as essential for high performers. From understanding the difference between incremental and exponential growth to recognizing the importance of intuition and curiosity, Tracy shares her insights on how to achieve remarkable success and live a life of purpose and fulfilment.Main Article:Tracy's journey to creating Space Time Alchemy is a fascinating story of passion, dedication, and innovation. With her background in teaching and coaching, Tracy has developed a unique approach to helping high performers achieve exponential growth. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the difference between incremental and exponential growth, and how to cultivate the mindset and skills necessary to achieve remarkable success.Key Takeaways:Don't confuse incremental growth with exponential growth: Incremental growth is about making small, gradual improvements, while exponential growth is about making significant, transformative changes.Understand the power of intuition and curiosity: High performers are often driven by a sense of curiosity and intuition, which guides them to explore new possibilities and push beyond their limits.Recognize the importance of purpose and fulfillment: Exponential growth is not just about achieving success, but also about living a life of purpose and fulfillment.Let go of negative self-talk and self-doubt: High performers often struggle with negative self-talk and self-doubt, which can hold them back from achieving their full potential.Cultivate a growth mindset: Exponential growth requires a growth mindset, which involves being open to new experiences, embracing challenges, and continuously learning and improving.Connect with Tracy:You can find out more about Tracy and her work by visiting her website at tracypoizner.com. Follow her on social media(linkedin.com/in/tracypoizner) to stay up-to-date on the latest news and updates from the world of personal growth and development.About Julie RigaLearn More About Julie: Julie Riga Website / linkedin.com/in/julierigaJulie Riga is a certified coach, trainer, speaker and author with over 20 years of experience in the Pharma Industry. Julie's education is vast with studies that include business, communications, training and executive coaching.Julie started on this journey because she had a strong desire to pass on the knowledge and skills passed on to her by her father, Ennio Riga, and inspirational man who taught her how to keep going irrespective of the challenges that life may present you with.Based in New Jersey, Julie have travelled the world supporting corporations, business leaders and individuals on their journey of empowerment and growth.#ExponentialGrowth #HighPerformance #PersonalGrowth #Success #Fulfillment #Purpose #Intuition #Curiosity #GrowthMindset #SpaceTimeAlchemy #TracyPoizner #StayOnCourse #Podcast #Inspiration #Motivation

“Just updating your experience on your resume is no longer enough,” Tracy explains on this solo episode of BossMakeher. In order to be competitive in today's crowded job market, you need a resume that is going to penetrate through all the noise, grab a recruiter's attention and encourage them to keep reading. This starts with a crucial first step that too many female executives overlook but that Tracy will share today. She'll explain how to optimize your search and get the most from hiring a resume writer (which is non-negotiable), saving your time, money and frustration.  Tracy will explain the data you should be gathering about potential jobs, how to evaluate them based on your needs, skills and the requirements of your potential new employer. Learn how to create a balanced spreadsheet for a more targeted job search, what the most important part of your resume is and the step a recruiter will take if they want to learn more.  Resume-writing is a skill like any other, and seeking professional help can save you a great deal of whiplash. Join Tracy to learn the different types of resumes you'll need, the ideal amount of time to dedicate to job searching, what not to put in your headline in order to be considered by recruiters.  Quotes “Just updating your experience on your resume is no longer enough. The market is highly competitive, and so what you need to have is alignment to the role that you want, and a competitive advantage.” (2:32 | Tracy) “Isn't it the job of the resume writer, to know what the resume  needs to be? The answer is, actually, no. They're looking to you to tell them what the direction of your resume should be. And if you don't know, they can't know.” (5:21 | Tracy) “You cannot design a resume to do everything. What your resume needs to do is have irrefutable alignment to the role that you need or that you want such that the recruiter can basically grab the information and forward you along without hesitation.” (9:02 | Tracy) “You've got to be really clear on the role you want, the role and the role that will meet your needs. That is how you begin to put together a resume that will penetrate through.” (10:29 | Tracy) “I highly recommend not trying to do this yourself. You need eyes on this, you need support, you need expert opinions. But ultimately, there's nothing like a great resume writer. There are a lot of bad ones, but there's nothing like a great one who can make you stand up as the woman that you are on paper and just be more powerful than you ever could have imagined.” (21:08 | Tracy) Links Learn more about BossmakeHer here: www.bossmakeher.com  Connect with the BossmakeHer team for your free initial consultation here: https://calendly.com/madeline-bossmakeher/initial-consult-website Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bossmakeher/message

“Seriously? This is all we have to offer?” Tracy Harrison, principal instructor and founding CEO of the School of Applied Functional Medicine, found herself asking this question when her husband suddenly suffered a series of debilitating seizures and was a cocktail of drugs and very little information. This eye-opening incident spotlighted the current state of medicine which offers good disease care, but a major lack of actual health care, which Tracy says should address functional imbalances before such a major loss of vitality as to prompt a diagnosis and treatment. Patient and professional should engage in an ongoing, communicative relationship to maintain the patient's health long term. Not only does this allow a patient ownership and authority over their own health, but allows the practitioners to be actualized.    Incentive is key. People don't want to feel bound to a third party and a set of rules. Science shows there is no one path to health, and Tracy discusses the need to veer away from perfectionist mindset. At the School of Applied Functional Medicine, students' diverse backgrounds allow each to contribute their own unique genius to the curriculum.    The approaches discussed here present a significant potential unburdening of disease care. Moreover, reactions from patients remind Tracy and Lara why they are so dedicated to the good medicine movement. Quotes • “We need a whole separate initiative and system that promotes…functional balance that naturally repels disease.” (5:05-5:23 | Tracy)  • “The car parked at the top of the hill…If you let it pick up some speed going downhill, it's going to land in the ditch. It's going to go in the lake.” (7:07-7:25 | Tracy) • “You don't evaluate the function of a car outside of the state of the road, the climate, the environment…we can't separate the functional balance or lack thereof of a human system from diet, stress, sleep, relationships, personal fulfillment or belief systems.” (24:12-24:45 | Tracy) • “We're trying to tell people what the right answer is rather than partner with them to discover the right answer for themselves…no one will ever be sustainably healthy under that set of rules.” (27:09-27:33 | Tracy) • “The day you get that email that says, ‘Oh my gosh, I'm pregnant and I've been trying for years… for the first time ever, I have hope.' There's no greater feeling of fulfillment and satisfaction.” (51:46-52:16 | Tracy)   Links Connect with Tracy Harrison: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/schoolappliedfunctionalmed/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AppliedFunctionalMedicine   Connect with Lara:  Website: https://drlarasalyer.com Instagram: @drlarasalyer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drlarasalyer Linked-In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlarasalyer/ YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/DrLaraSalyer TikTok: @Creativity.Doctor   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

If you're new to the voice over industry, there's a lot to learn. Luckily there are plenty of resources out there that can help you get your bearings and start building your career. Anne is joined by special guest Tracy Lindley, a voice actor & expert on utilizing LinkedIn as a marketing tool for voice actors. On LinkedIn, it's all about relationships—and not just with other actors. Remember to focus on fostering genuine connections and optimizing your online presence to attract potential clients. With persistence and the right strategies, you'll be well on your way to establishing a thriving career in voice acting. Stay engaged, keep learning, and watch your network—and opportunities—grow.   Transcript   It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to bring very special guest, Tracy Lindley to the podcast. Hey Tracy.   Tracy: Hey Ann. How's it going?   Anne: It's going great. So a little bit about Tracy. Tracy's been a full-time voice actor since 2014 -- we are kind of twinsies on that one -- and regularly voices projects for clients like Hewitt Packard, Realtor.com, iHeartRadio, Health.com, and many others. She is a well known expert in the field of LinkedIn and finding clients and is also a mom to four kids, ages 7 to 13, who also do voiceover. And she lives in the Midwest area where it's very cold right now.   Tracy: Yes, I'm bundled up in a sweater.   Anne: Well, Tracy, I am so excited to finally have you here on the show. I feel like we're like ships that pass in the night because I've been following you for such a long time, and I've seen you at conferences, but we've just kind of like passed each other by.   Tracy: I bet I've been following you for longer because I remember when I was first starting out, you had a great interview on VO Buzz Weekly that I watched.   Anne: Oh, I remember that. Yeah.   Tracy: Yes. It was a wonderful two-part interview and I learned so much, and I was like, man, she is just dropping truth bombs on here.   Anne: Well, thank you that I'm very honored about that. My goodness. But you, I mean, my gosh, you are just blazing this path to the stars with your career, and really in the last couple of years, you are absolutely the known person outside of being great in voiceover and talented, but also all about marketing and LinkedIn. And so I'm excited to talk to you about that today, because I was much more involved in LinkedIn a few years back. And then my business kind of, I have separate paths. Now, I'm not as able to keep up as much as I'd like on LinkedIn, so I'm getting ready to learn a whole lot, and BOSSes, I think you're gonna learn a whole lot from this wonderful, wonderful talent here. So let's get going. Before we talk about LinkedIn, tell us a little bit about your journey into voiceover.   Tracy: Well, it started out with me just hanging out, washing dishes in my kitchen, listening to VO Buzz Weekly and other great podcasts like VO BOSS, which is on the resource page that I have on my website to recommend to other talent that are learning.   Anne: Thank you.   Tracy: Because you are always giving us value and you have since the very beginning, and I've learned so much from you. You are a wiz at marketing yourself and a great person just relationally. You know how to connect the dots and how to communicate very well.   Anne: Well, thank you for that.   Tracy: Oh, well you're welcome. I mean, part of the fun of being on podcasts is getting to tell people how much I enjoy them personally because I'm very relational myself, and I think think that if someone was just starting out in the industry, I feel like the best way to get started is to research. And that's what I tell everybody. Research, research, research. Read the articles, listen to the podcasts, watch the vlogs. Do all of those things. And there are some great paid courses too. I recommend all of that stuff because you can't just learn in bits and pieces so much. Sometimes you need to kind of put it all together, and we all connect those dots as we're going along in our journey. But I can't remember now what your original question is. Oh my. My journey.   Anne: Your journey. Yes. Your journey. Because you've been doing this a long time. I think we started around the same time actually, and I was working part-time for a little bit before I went into it full-time. Were you always in it full-time or did you?   Tracy: No.   Anne: Okay. So you started part-time.   Tracy: I was a claims adjuster for an auto insurance company. And I know you were, from your story, you were working on installing telephone systems, right?   Anne: Yep, absolutely.   Tracy: And that's how you got your start was hey, they needed a voice to be on the systems. And for me, I have a communication degree, and when I was in college, I had an internship at a cable company and one day the producer just handed me a piece of paper and was like, hey, you have a nice voice. Will you read this? I'm like, okay, sure. . So I read it, I get in there, it's no more than a small closet with foam in it in a microphone, right? So it's nothing fancy. So I go in there and I read it, and I just found that I have this natural sense of timing. I knew what 30 seconds should be. And that goes back even further to me just reading out loud to kids at the library when I was like 12, 13, 14.   I just volunteered my time, and I was always like the babysitter that everybody wanted to come and hang out with their kids. So I have read to kids out loud several years of my life and still love reading out loud to my own kids. Reading out loud is such a skill that we don't realize we need to develop. Because when we're reading a book, you know, we're not gonna typically read out loud to ourselves. So sometimes it feels weird and it feels strange, but that's one of the best skills that we can learn when we're getting into into the industry.   Anne: Oh yeah. That's like cold reading skills right there. And I remember myself as a youngster, I would always be that person that would raise the hand -- who wants to read out loud for the class?   Tracy: Yes.   Anne: Me. And I wrote books too when I was really young. When I was in kindergarten, I learned to write, and I started to write books and I read them to the first graders, and it was all about Nibbles the Bunny. But I think that maybe that was so long ago though.   Tracy: Okay. I feel like --   Anne: That was like my start .   Tracy: -- we have got to publish these books. The world needs to see Nibbles the Bunny.   Anne: I'm telling you --   Tracy: Have you considered that?   Anne: ? I wish. I wish that I had a picture of it or a record of what it was that I wrote, but I vividly remember drawing the bunny. I illustrated too. And then I wrote the books, and I was so proud to read them, and all of my career, and I know yours too, I think a lot of voice actors when they get into it, they're good cold readers, or they've always been like excited to read or perform in front of an audience. And it's wonderful for your cold reading skills. And then I think what happens is, as we really get into the acting of voiceover, then it becomes something where you don't wanna use that as a crutch. You wanna use it to get yourself to quickly get into the story, but then you need to act. And then if you're reading too much and then it's gonna sound like you're reading too much, but I digress. But I think it's a wonderful skill that everybody needs in order to just, you know, be quick on their feet. Once you get those script changes that come in like at the last minute, you've gotta be able to do a quick cold read and understand and comprehend that story so that you can then tell it back while you're voicing it.   Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. And it's really important to have that -- that child doesn't have those inhibitions that we do as adults. So I feel like if we could just tap into our inner child, we wouldn't be scared of it, you know, because we can all get performance anxiety, especially the more and more and more people come into the room to listen to us perform, it just becomes so scary. So it really all comes down to just reading out loud, having fun with it, telling a story. That's what we're here for.   Anne: Absolutely. Now this is a little earlier than I was gonna get into it, but you're a mom of four kids, so big family. I'm also one of four in the family. Actually through the pandemic I became one of six and that's just a whole 'notherpodcast where I found out I had a brother and a sister, which is a wonderful thing. But I loved being a family where we're close in age. Tell me about your family, 'cause they're also doing voiceover, and I love how you just talked about how we need to be kids, we need to feel uninhibited. And so do you work with your kids and then also learn from them as well or be reminded of that as well?   Tracy: Oh gosh, I'm always learning lessons from them. And a lot of those lessons involve being patient and being a good communicator, breaking down what I need from you and saying it nicely. .   Anne: Oh yeah. And hey, that works in marketing too, right? .   Tracy: Yeah, that's true. I mean direct communication, but doing it kindly is I think a big key to marketing effectively.   Anne: Yeah.   Tracy: But my kids are always teaching me stuff. Like last night, my daughter, she's nine, she's the middle daughter'cause I have a son and then three girls.   Anne: Okay.   Tracy: So the middle daughter is right in that sweet spot. You see a lot of auditions that come through 8 to 10, 8 to 10. So she's right there. She's also recently started taking vocal lessons. They do coach as well. Martha Khan is an excellent teacher for kids. Love her, my kids love her. But my daughters, all four of the kids actually take piano lessons, so --   Anne: I did too.   Tracy: Oh yes. It's great. We need that musicality.   Anne: It's so wonderful. Yes, absolutely. And I use that musicality when I coach as well because there's a melody to conversation. There's a melody in which most people are trying to achieve that natural, conversational, authentic, and there's a melody to it, believe it or not, if you break it down, so.   Tracy: Were you a vocalist as well? Or are you still?   Anne: Yeah, I mean I don't sing professionally, but you know, I sing in the shower, but for the longest time I was in choir for all four years of high school and went to the all-states and the all-counties and absolutely. I still love, love to sing. And it is something that, and playing piano, understanding where your notes are and being able to read music, it greatly helped breaking down the performance of a conversation. And so yeah. It's the basis of how I teach a lot actually. 'cause there's a lot of people who are musical that come into this industry. So piano's wonderful.   Tracy: Yeah, they really have an advantage. I took lessons, uh, piano lessons for seven years as well. And I definitely see a lot of legato, staccato.   Anne: Yes.   Tracy: Those are pretty big themes in what we do.   Anne: Yeah.   Tracy: And also understanding how to translate what the client is saying. I actually see sort of musically in my head.   Anne: Oh yeah, there's a rhythm. There's definitely a rhythm to it and a beat. And also the emotional part of it too, right, the emotion that gets put into it and the passion that gets put into it. Words are notes and really it's phrasing is very similar, right? We don't breathe in the middle of our phrases when we talk. It's not like I'm going to talk to you like this. You know, , it's, yeah. There's just a whole composition to it and, and I believe in my demo production too, it's a storyline from beginning to end. So it's amazing how much music plays into, at least how I identify and can work within voiceover and also coach it.   Tracy: Yes. Imagination too. We've got to again tap into that inner child where we're able to let ourselves go into the story and become the character.   Anne: Oh yes.   Tracy: My daughter and I both have -- my older daughter, my 11-year-old, she loves like fairy tales, princess stories, anything that involves, you know, that kind of fantasy world. And right now I cannot get her nose out of this book that she's reading. It's the Ella Enchanted author. I can't remember -- her last name is Levine. Anyway, caught her reading by the light of the nightlight last night when she's supposed to be sleeping. But that kind of joy for the story Yeah. Is what we need as adults. And that's another thing that I was talking to my daughter last night with the auditions is that --'cause they needed her to do some giggles. And sometimes it's hard to get kids to laugh on command, and I'll tickle 'emand I'll do whatever I need to, but I'm just like, pretend you're having fun with your friends. I want you to think about the best day. I want you to think about when you do your gymnastics and you just, you love life and let it bubble up and come out of you. So she's still working on that. She's a little nervous in front of the mic still. But it's all part of the journey. So I do learn a ton from my kids. That's a great question that I don't think everyone's ever really asked me before.   Anne: Oh, and you know what's so funny is that when I was teaching, of course I worked in high school, I learned so much, probably more from the kids than they might've learned from me. I mean, my hope was to inspire and motivate them, but boy did I learn a whole lot from them. It's why I coach today because I really feel that give and take, and I can completely understand when you're working with your children. Like it's such a wonderful give and take when you're experiencing that together, and you're learning together and you're guiding her and hopefully getting her super excited to just excel at voiceover, and so great for you. Now how do you find the time? There's the, the question probably everybody asks you, because I was part of a four child family and I know how busy my mom was. She was constantly carting me everywhere to my piano lessons or whatever that was. I also rode horses, but it was a crazy busy time for my mom. So how do you do it all?   Tracy: I just really think time management's important, but also just understanding boundaries. I have worked for many years without my kids being away and with having really limited childcare hours. Because I love my kids and I want to spend time with them. So everything I teach, I say do it in the cracks of life. There's always little windows and bits, and if you can take that, you can actually concentrate it and do more in that time. I've found that since my kids, all four of them, are in school full-time, I have to really reign myself in and plan my day more consecutively to where I'm using it more effectively. Because when I just had two hours and a day to work during nap time, boy, I really hustled. And I really focused on marketing on LinkedIn. That was the thing that I needed to do. I have not enjoyed endless auditioning. That's not something that really floats my boat. I don't love it.   Anne: I don't either.   Tracy: I do auditions. Yeah. And actually, actually I joined Bodalgo.   Anne: Did I say that? Yeah. Don't either.   Tracy: We have to do what we have to do.   Anne: I know.   Tracy: But I don't hardly audition on Voice123 because there's just so many and there's so many people. But I do love of course agents, I will audition everything that I feel is appropriate --   Anne: Yes. Absolutely.   Tracy: -- for my -- absolutely. So agents, current clients that maybe they need three choices to send to their end person. Yeah. Or some of the different production houses that I'm part of, they'll need auditions and Bodalgo. But really that's it. Most of the time it's directly communicating with the client 'cause that is where I really enjoy.   Anne: Yeah, I love that. And you know, that's so interesting 'cause I feel that we're kind of like soul sisters in that area because right now, the way that I have -- I'm doing a lot of things. I mean, I'm doing this podcast, I'm doing a VO Peeps group and I also coach and I do voiceover, so I don't have a ton of time to devote to auditioning. And so for me it was more about the direct marketing. One of the things that I developed because I didn't have a ton of time, was the BOSS Blast, which was a direct marketing to a list. And that makes total sense that for you, you would go and use LinkedIn or use whatever social platform that worked for you to get those jobs directly because that kind of bypasses a lot of times the need for an audition.   And also I, I would imagine, I'm gonna talk to you about that, like what search engine optimization has to do in LinkedIn that helps you get found, and people maybe reach out to you, and then if they hear your demo or you've got samples up there, I would imagine that then they just say, have an inquiry and say how much would it cost to do this? And for me that's the time saver where I don't have to audition. And it's not that I won't audition, but it's just that I don't have a ton of time. So I had to get more efficient at my marketing. So then let's talk about LinkedIn. Now, why LinkedIn, first of all for you and not some other social platform?   Tracy: Well, I mean the other ones are fun, but when people think about business, they think about LinkedIn. It is the number one most widely used business social media platform. So naturally that's where I was gonna go because I'm not interested in getting followers and being popular online. I'm just here to build those business relationships and grow my business. And I did it. I mean, I would market to as many people as I could. My goal was 20 people per day, new people that I would reach out to. As a young person in my career as a young mom of little kids, I knew my time was limited, so that's where I focused. I said I'm gonna market to 20 people per day. And I kept like a little, just a paper, like a written, handwritten notebook where I would write down names and dates, and then I would, you know, make a note back if someone contacted me back.   But it was just a visual tool to show me that I had actually accomplished something that day. And now I have a resource in my LinkedIn marketing course, the VO Edge, that's called Five Daily Reach Outs. Because 20 is a lot, and I realize that's a lot. So, but five, anybody can do five. And that's why over the years I've learned from people like you, people like Natasha Marcheska, people that know how to break a big task into little tasks. If you do that, you can accomplish so much more because you're not gonna get discouraged. And to have a plan. I guarantee that you don't wake up wondering, I wonder what I'm gonna do today. You know what you're doing because you are super organized.   Anne: Well, I think you have to be, right? And especially for us to be successful and to continue to grow in our businesses. I mean we have to be, because we've got a lot of things that we're doing. I mean, you're a mom of four, you're a voice talent, you're running a online -- is it an online course and is it live as well?   Tracy: No, it's just online.   Anne: That's a lot -- okay.   Tracy: It's online only. And I did that to save myself time. I really put a lot of thought into planning out the different modules and lessons and I tightly edited them so there's no wasted time because I don't like my time to be wasted. And I didn't wanna do that to anybody else. So it's about two hours of content overall. And I also do like a little introductory pump up video to kind of get people excited and motivated to do that module and that lesson. But yeah, it's totally, anybody can do it in their own time. It's on demand, and you can go revisit it anytime. It's all videos and there's some downloads too.   Anne: And I imagine 'cause creating curriculum, of course being an educator, right, for the longest time, I mean, it takes time to create good content. So for you to keep that up to date and keep that as a successful online course, congratulations. First of all, I know how much time that takes and how much effort it takes to get really good content and a really good course online that people can really get value out of. Now do you do any special coaching? I'm sure people are coming up to you and go, please, can you just help me with my profile, or do you do any type of individual coaching as well?   Tracy: Yeah. I'll do one-on-one and so I'll do like a private consulting session for an hour, and we'll go over, typically we'll start with the profile. And I always ask, Hey, please send me any questions in advance, the things you really wanna know because I'm not gonna waste your time and we're gonna go quickly during this hour.   Anne: Good.   Tracy: But I don't do a ton of that because the course is so comprehensive that most people get their questions answered through that.   Anne: Awesome.   Tracy: And I really do direct them towards the course because then it doesn't take up my time.   Anne: Right.   Tracy: But I love working with people as you know, it's so much more fun to get to know people individually during that hour. So I mean, I made a friend by the end of the hour and I love that.   Anne: Yeah. It is. The only thing is, is that as you keep trying to -- and for me, I'm, I'm very business minded, right? And for me, if I'm not growing then I'm stagnating and that's not necessarily where I wanna be. And so personally in my business, I'm always looking to grow in one way or another. And so every week, every month, every year, I'm looking at how can I grow my business? And so your personal time is probably the most precious time that you have. And so for example, I can't coach any more people. I cannot do any more one-on-ones because I'm one person, and I simply don't have the hours in the day to do everything that I wanna do. So it is important to be efficient. So let's talk a little bit more about the LinkedIn. You're using the free version of LinkedIn, right?   Tracy: Right. I've never done the premium.   Anne: Okay. You've never even tried it?   Tracy: No.   Anne: Okay.   Tracy: It's just so robust, I don't need it.   Anne: Okay.   Tracy: You do get limited on the number of connections, but what I've taught people is that you can put your searches in and then bookmark it. And that way you can just keep going back to that page, and it doesn't keep ding you for additional searches.   Anne: Oh, got it.   Tracy: So that's a big secret that a lot of people.   Anne: We can go home now. That's it. That's a . That's it. That's the nugget.   Tracy: But I mean, what you mentioned earlier about optimizing the SEO, so let's talk about that.   Anne: Yes.   Tracy: That is one of the key things. And you're great at that on your website. I know that.   Anne: Oh, thank you.   Tracy: Well, you come from a tech --   Anne: It's lot of work. Yeah.   Tracy: -- background. Yes. Yes. And it's additional content.   Anne: But it's worthy.   Tracy: Yes.   Anne: It's definitely worth it to spend the time on the content because it brings people to your site. And I imagine people on LinkedIn searching for voiceover talent, like you want them to reach your profile.   Tracy: Right.   Anne: So yeah, let's talk about what do you do to enhance your SEO for that?   Tracy: Well, so there are three steps in what I teach with LinkedIn. And the first step is optimizing your profile. So that's where you must start. Do not start reaching out to people if you haven't completely shined up your profile and made it the best it can be. So obviously that would be the base step in step one. So step one involves just putting yourself forward authentically. One of the things that I really harp on is how there's so much inauthentic, spammy marketing, and you can stand out by being authentic.   I consider my life messy. People know that I have four kids and I don't hide it. I put all over my Instagram, I just posted one recently about going Christmas shopping with the kids, and it was just, I did not wanna go. It starts off with me making a face, you know, like I don't wanna do this. And I used like the circus theme because sometimes that's how I feel like I live in a circus. So I allow people to get a glimpse into my messiness. And I feel like that's actually been a boost to my brand, because I'm relatable and we all have messes. So why pretend to be perfect? So when you create your profile, though, you are your most businessy self on LinkedIn. So I'm not nearly as messy there. I will be all kinds of messy on Instagram and Facebook. But here on LinkedIn we're a little bit more put together. We wanna make sure that people know we can handle the work. We're not gonna flake, we're dependable. So key words that emphasize those kinds of business ethics are key.   And also speaking from a one-on-one perspective, don't make it sound like, Tracy Lindley is a full-time voice actor, that kind of thing. You wanna say I am. So you're speaking to the first person. I tell people to look at it as if you were at a networking event and you're meeting someone for the first time and they say, what do you do? So you've got a big picture back here where you're giving an overall view of who you are, 'cause they asked, and if they're visiting your profile, that's kind of like asking what do you do? Let me get to know you a bit. And then when you get down to the experience section about being a voice talent, then that's when you get into more of the nitty gritty like clients, agents, those kinds of things.   Anne: Do you put examples and demos on there as well in your profile?   Tracy: Oh yeah. That's key.   Anne: Media?   Tracy: I mean, why would you wanna hire somebody that doesn't have any examples at all of their work?   Anne: Right.   Tracy: And don't make 'em go looking on your website. That wastes their time. Everything that we do needs to be client-centered, and it wastes the client's time to take them to your website or some other source. You should put it right there on LinkedIn. Put all your best examples. And a lot of times people are starting out brand new. Like if you've coached someone and they've just created a demo, and they have no body of work, they can take that demo that you've created with them and turn it into a video and display that on LinkedIn.   Anne: Videos are effective.   Tracy: Yes. And you can't really do an MP3 on LinkedIn. You have to do some sort of video. So sometimes people do SoundCloud, but I don't find that very effective 'cause it's just a static picture. And I think even a very simple video is fine. Some people do make it look like all these clips of commercials, which is really cool, but it's also costly. And if people are bootstrapping their business at the beginning, it's really easy to create a very simple video with your picture and just a few things, contact information on the back. Contact information is huge because that's our call to action is contact me.   Anne: What about your feed on LinkedIn? Are you posting to the feed on LinkedIn? Are you creating content? Because I know a big thing, gosh, a couple years ago when I was looking back into it was creating content and posts like short blog posts in LinkedIn. Is that still, is that effective? Is that, what are your thoughts on that?   Tracy: You know, video's really taken over. Blogs are still fantastic and also they can link back to your website, which boosts your SEO, but really video is king right now, and those are the things that are gonna get the most engagement. But you can't just get on camera and talk about nothing. You have to give people something of value. And you have to to keep it short. So when I post videos, I try to keep 'em less than two minutes, 90 seconds if I can. You know, it just depends. I'll do it in one, two, no more than three takes. And if I can't get it in three takes, just forget it. I'll come back later. Because mm-hmm. I want it fresh, I want it off the cuff.   Anne: Yeah. I agree.   Tracy: I want it to be as authentic as possible.   Anne: Yeah, I agree. And so the big question is, and I know most of, a lot of students will, well what do I post? Or what do I talk about? Like what do you talk about? Do you talk about voiceover? I don't think the intent is to do a hard sell on hire me, I do voiceover. What are your thoughts on creative videos that would bring value?   Tracy: Well, I'd say touch on things that make us human, touch on things that make us a business person. So one of the best videos I ever did was talking about how I am extra, and at my kids's school I was doing the announcing for the volleyball game, and I was told after that, hey, you know, you don't need to commentate so much about the volleyball game, you know, just do the sponsors and say something at the end of the match. Okay. But I didn't, I just would say something after like every point. I think it did get a little annoying. I did learn from that, but my point was I just couldn't sit there with this microphone and not say things. So I just realized I am extra and I made a little video out of that and about rejoicing in being extra. And so --   Anne: I love that.   Tracy: Yes. So many people relate to that. And that kind of thing that brings us together as humans. it makes us who we are. And I was the kind of girl that went door to door selling cookies in the neighborhood and asking if I could rake your leaves and things. I've always been a go-getter and I know you are too, Anne. And when you're a go-getter in this industry, you can't just sit back and do the minimum.   Anne: Yeah. Agreed.   Tracy: That was my video.   Anne: Agreed. Well, I love that. So now outside of LinkedIn, right, and of course BOSSes out there, I totally encourage all of you just go take the course, just do it. LinkedIn is just one of the best resources for getting work that I can think of. I guess my last question before I ask you, the big question, which is I will get to that, is let's talk about templates or how do you reach out to somebody in a cold contact? I feel like cold contacting people is difficult. That I know. And so how do you wrangle that in reaching out and not being considered spammy? Is there a tip or two or three that you have in reaching out to people?   Tracy: Sure. My biggest tip is to look for anything that you can use to find common ground. So when people are just starting out using LinkedIn, one of the best ways to reach out is by geographic area. So you could reach out to folks in LA, I can reach out to folks in Kansas City, and that way we have that in common already and we know that. And that's an easy thing to put into the search terms when we're using the search features of LinkedIn is geographical area. So that's one thing. But another thing, I encourage people to look through their profile and find something that they can relate to. Maybe they mention a cat or a dog or kids, or I like to watch the Chiefs, whatever. Find something. If they've written any kind of personal about section, usually you can find something interesting there to comment about. But as far as templates, I am pro templates within reason, I do think that it's good -- if you're gonna kind of write similar things each time, I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. So I do encourage people to write templates, but personalize like the first sentence and always say that person's correctly spelled name.   Anne: Oh yeah. . Absolutely.   Tracy: Like I bet people spell your name A-N-N. And you're like, uh...   Anne: Yes. All the time. All the time. They do.   Tracy: And I always get, yes, T-R-A-C-E-Y is how people end up spelling my name. I'm like, there's no E. . We don't like that.   Anne: There's no E. Absolutely. Well, what wonderful advice. Now in addition to LinkedIn, what would be your best business tip for people just getting into the industry on how to establish their business or get work and be successful?   Tracy: I would say the best thing is to start local. Start with who you know. I think I'm hearing from your story that people who were your first clients were people you actually knew in your life, and they were in mind too. So when you are truly ready to hang out your open for business sign, which means you've got a great website, you've got a great professionally produced demo, you have enough training to where if someone says, I need this, you can give it to them-- your sound quality has to be top notch, you have to have a low sound floor, no buzzing, no echo, all that stuff, and you know how to use your equipment, including source connect. If you say that you have source connect -- okay. If you have all that stuff, then you are ready to start hanging out your sign and telling people on Facebook and Instagram and whatever that you're doing voiceover. And chances are there's someone in your life who needs voiceover, especially if you have a decent personal social network. And that's kind of how it happened for me was I was personally connected to someone that owned a marketing firm, and he was one of my first clients. My alma mater hired me to do a short documentary. There were some little IVR things that I did, and it just kind of snowballs.   Anne: Absolutely.   Tracy: Yeah. And then I felt confident. I'm like, okay, I have a little bit of work here that I can showcase. It may not be any brand names that are super sexy, but it's work, and it sounds good and it looks good, so let's put it out there. So that's what I started doing. It builds on each other.   Anne: It's amazing how important local can be in establishing relationships. Also, relationships that keep coming back as you nurture it. I have so many repeat clients that I've had for years because like you say, communication is key, and nurturing those relationships are key. And a lot of them started off locally. And I think that that is something people don't think of. And that also locally helps when you're advertising like where you are voicing from, like voicing from Southern California or Orange County, California or Los Angeles area. Even just putting those words on your website help for people to find you because most of the times when people are searching using Google, it's automatically got localization turned on. And so if they're searching for voice talent, it's gonna search locally first. And so you wanna be up at the top of that search. So, great advice, Tracy. I wanna thank you so very much for joining me today. Yay. My bucket list checked off.   Tracy: Oh, me too. This is so fun. And I'll see you at VO Atlanta in March.   Anne: I know, I'm very excited. How can people get in touch with you and where can they go to get that course again?   Tracy: Okay, so my website, if people wanna check out me or my work or whatever, that's tracylindley.com. And the course is @thelinkedinedge.com. Or if you wanna just look at the one for voice actors, it's thevoedge.com and it'll take you right there.   Anne: Perfect.   Tracy: And I'm happy to answer questions. Contact me on Instagram. My handle is @TracyLindleyVO, pretty much everywhere.   Anne: Awesome. Tracy, thank you so much again for joining me. I'm gonna give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like a BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. And also, I want you to understand about your chance to use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to commit and find out more. You guys, have an amazing week. Tracy, thank you again, and we'll see you next week. Bye.   Tracy: Bye.   Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Decluttering Tips For Hoarders with Tracy McCubbin was my guest recently on my podcast, "The Joe Costello Show". She is a decluttering expert and she shared how she got started, what her business does and some tidbits that can really help you get started. Tracy's company has so many service to help people declutter their home, office, home office, etc. She also has other services such as closet audits, garage organization, moving services, senior downsizing, estate decluttering. Please go to https://dclutterfly.com/ and check out how she might be able to help. Tracy has also written a book called "Making Space, Clutter Free: The Last Book on Decluttering You'll Ever Need" which you can buy at Amazon or support this cool book website called BookShop.org. Here's the link to the book: Making Space, Clutter Free: The Last Book on Decluttering You'll Ever Need  Also check out OneKidOneWorld which Tracy plays an important role in as the Co-Executive Director     Thanks for listening! Joe Tracy McCubbin CEO & Owner of dClutterfly Website: https://dClutterfly.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dclutterfly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tracy_mccubbin Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thisistracymccubbin Private FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2036212949941199 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracy-mccubbin-566829b2/ One Kid One World: https://www.onekidoneworld.org/ Email: info@dClutterfly.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Tracy, welcome. I'm glad to have you on the podcast. I've been waiting to have you because clutter is is just the worst thing in the world. So I'm excited to talk to you. So welcome to the show. Tracy: Thanks, Joe. I'm super excited to be here, and it's always interesting to meet people sort of who have different expertise and different focuses like everybody have in common everybody. Joe: Yup, Tracy: So Joe: Yup. Tracy: It it's just I love talking to different people about kind of how they can manage their clutter, get ahead of their clutter and live their best life. Joe: Well, I'm excited and I, I follow a pretty strict format in the sense that I really like to know the person and I think my audience likes to know the person. And I think that's how they connect with you. I just don't want the end of this podcast to come and say other this really great woman that was on who understands how to do clutter. I want to know how you got into this and more about you. So can you kind of give us the background leading up to when you started to clarify? Tracy: Yeah, it's a very interesting subject, I like to say that I'm one of those people who all I had a bunch of jobs that turned out to not be my passion, but everything I did along the way brought me here. So I was a personal assistant for a very long time to two different people. I was a bookkeeper for small businesses. I was an administrative assistant to lawyers. I had all these various I took care of my grandmother, helped her manage her finances. So I had all these various kind of office centric jobs. And then when I was working for one of the people I was a personal assistant for, he was a television director. So when he had downtime, friends of his or he for, say, the friends of his oh, my assistant, she can handle anything. So I started helping other people. Somebody's grandmother had passed away and they need to clean up the house. They had a big accounting mess and all of a sudden people started to tell other people and I would get phone calls. And at first I wasn't charging. And then I was charging a little bit. And a friend of mine said, I think you have a business. And I was like, no, I'm just helping people. This is. And he's like, no, that's what a business is. And so I I'm like, all right, let me just see. And I made a little website and I put the word out. And that's fourteen years later at eight employees later and thousands of jobs and everything I did in the past, from acting in commercials to doing bookkeeping to taking care of my grandmother, it all led me to creating this business. And then the big piece of the puzzle, which I didn't even realize when I first started the business and I had to have a client of mine point out I'm the child of a hoarder. Tracy: So my dad is an extreme hoarder. And I have lived my whole life watching him struggle with his relationship to his stuff. So very acutely aware of our relationship to stuff is emotional and but I'm not kidding. It was like ten years into my business when this client of mine, who is a psychiatrist was like, that's so interesting. Have you ever thought of the connection? I was like, what? No, what do you mean? And then you're like, oh. So watching what my father went through and still continues to go through gave me so much empathy to people's struggle and how for so many people there's all this shame around it. I'm messy and I'm disorganized. I'm a bad housekeeper. And my goal and what I realized through clients of my dad is that that's not the case, that there is this emotional attachment. And if you're not aware of that emotional attachment, you're going to keep repeating the same mistake. So it's getting to the root of why you're hanging on to all the stuff and changing your relationship so you can have the home you want to live. So I'm a I'm late to this business. I opened this business in my forties, so I'm also a really good poster child for like if you have something you want to do, don't get stuck in the age. Don't think like I and get this done. My success is all coming my fifty. So I'm um like if you have a passion follow. It doesn't matter where you are in your life. Joe: Yes, and that's what's great, because my audience, at least what I think is my audience is really entrepreneurs like that's most of what I like, because that's where I come from. My heart is in that. So I like that. You said all of what you just said. I encourage people out there that have an idea that having made the commitment to go forward with it. So that was awesome. And I read the part about I didn't know what family, what person it was in your family, but I read that you had a family member who was a hoarder. So I'm glad you brought that up. But I wanted to know, like, what your trajectory was when you started. Like, did you what Tracy: Oh, Joe: Did you want Tracy: This is Joe: To do? Like. Tracy: Oh, this is this is even better if you if this is your conversation, I call myself an accidental entrepreneur, right. That I, I just I had no idea what I was doing. I was like, oh, let me just start a business. That'll be fine. Oh, let me just charge X an hour. Like I just made up some number which was clearly too low. And then I think about a year into my business, I read a book called The MF. That Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Right. Am Joe: Oh, Tracy: I getting Joe: Yeah, Tracy: The name of that. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah. Joe: It's a great Tracy: And Joe: Book. Tracy: I and I did the math and I was like, wow, I'm working for four dollars an hour. When I when I realized how much time I was putting in and what I was charging and another like I like when I say I had no business, I'd always work for other people, I'd always put things together. But I didn't I didn't go in with this. I didn't have a business plan. And I learned so much along the way. And every misstep was a giant step forward. And the biggest change for me, too, was when somebody said to me, you know, you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: And that just switched anything because I had a lifetime of dealing with someone and their staffs. And that just turned the light bulb on like, oh, right. It doesn't matter that this business has only been open for a year. I have 40 some years of doing this. And when I thought that and then I started to read more and realize and I hired a business coach and I started to really shift things around, that's when the business took off. That's when I was like, oh, stepped into the role of being an entrepreneur. And then I started to hire employees. And then I became a boss. Right. Which is a whole other thing. Joe: Yes, Tracy: And how Joe: It Tracy: Do Joe: Is. Tracy: You take care? How do you take care of your employees and how do you serve your clients and how do you not work twenty four hours a day. And so I love being an entrepreneur, but it was it wasn't an easy journey. It's not like, oh, just open your own business. I would do it no other way. And Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Had to stay really clear about because I fall a bit into the imposter syndrome, like who am I to open a business and who am I to do this? And if they want to know you've worked for work since I was 13. I've had job like I know how to do it. So I had to take all my past experiences and filter them in and realize that even though the path didn't look like a linear line, I didn't get an MBA, I didn't get venture capital. I didn't I have just as much experience, maybe more. So I always tell people, you know, in some ways you're not reinventing the wheel. A lot of people have done this. So gather information, listen to podcasts, read books. I'm a business coach if you need it. Like you can do it. If you have a great idea that know what it's done, you follow it through, follow it through. So Joe: So. Tracy: I feel I feel really I love it. I love running my own business. I love it. It's hard. Joe: Yes, Tracy: It's Joe: It is, Tracy: Hard, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You know. And some days I really I, I, I just got a text from a client. We helped them with this fundraiser that they were doing and it was a very emotional cause. And my team went and we kind of helped them organize all their stuff for it. And it was just a very grateful text. And when I get those texts, it's like, oh yeah, this is why we do this. This Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Is why we do this. So, yeah, I have a very funny like I it was not a straight line, but all roads have led me here. Joe: So I'm going to just that's where you have to bear with me for a moment, because I want to know more about Tracy, so I want to Tracy: Ok. Joe: Know, like, where you and the kid like like what Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Did you do? Like Tracy: That's Joe: Like Tracy: The Joe: So Tracy: Idea. Joe: I want you to go back a little further. So, Tracy: Ok, Joe: Like, Tracy: Yes, Joe: Go back Tracy: Absolutely. Joe: As far as you want. But I just want to know I want I think it's important because where I am today, everything. And you are saying all the right things for all of the listeners that will listen to this is that everything that you've done in the past just adds to who you've become now? Right. And it'll continue that way. And so many people lose sight of that. And at one point I did I was like, oh, I wasted so much time. And then I look back and I go, wait, that helped. And that helped. And that helped. And I learned a lesson there. And so what did you like? What was what did you want to do? Tracy: Yeah, you know, it's funny, I I was a neat child, I wasn't crazy, crazy, crazy organized, but I had a pretty between my dad being a hoarder and my parents getting divorced. I had a pretty California in the 70s. Like I had a kind of chaotic childhood. There was everywhere. Parenting was being reinvented. School was being we lived in a van for a year, traveled through Joe: If. Tracy: Europe. So I definitely like to make order out of chaos. I definitely like to know, OK, this is my space and I can live in it this way. And I also grew up very close to both of my grandmothers and my grandfather, but they came from the Midwest and Fresno and we're farm farmers. They came from and one of my grandmothers was an immigrant from Scotland and they all lived through the Depression. So my generational experience, the sort of generational trauma of living through the Depression, living through World War Two, you saved every yogurt container. You saved Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Every rubberband, learning how my ground both my grandmothers were. You don't put it down, you put it away and you fix. And I learned how to sew and I learned how to change it. I can change the oil in my car and I can change a tire. And I had all these really practical things. And also for me, I think one of the big lessons that really served me in opening my own business when I started working, I started babysitting when I was 12, 13, and I started making my own money and I was like, oh, I can buy that blue, shiny satin hang tan jacket that I really want. No one can tell me, like I learned, especially as a young woman, that money equated freedom. Right. That this money that I made also could make mistakes with it, rack up some credit card debt, like I could do that. But if I work and money comes and I have power over this and my grandmother and I, we bought some stocks and she kind of helped me figure that out. And so it was a really that was one of those life lessons that they don't teach you in school, that this is making my own money. I want to take a trip, then I can do it. And that was and I'm a worker bee hardwired that way. I like to work. So I think it was I think a lot of my childhood was trying to make order out of chaos and having control and having power, you know, and I was very blessed. Like I got to I went to UC Santa Barbara. I went to a great college. I had a lot of opportunities. My family was very pro education. So I traveled the world. So again, it's all these things that at the time like, I don't know, I'm going to live in Italy for a year to study art. The smartest thing. Yeah, it turns out it was Joe: Oh, that's awesome. Tracy: You Joe: When Tracy: Know, Joe: Was Tracy: Turns Joe: That? Tracy: Out I did that my junior year of college, Joe: Wow, Tracy: So. Joe: That was that's awesome. And Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Was there Tracy: So. Joe: Were you was there something that you were wanting to become like? Did you aspire to be or Tracy: You know, Joe: Was? Tracy: Yeah, it was funny, I never I for a while, I thought I wanted to be an actress, and so I took acting classes and I did that. I had to moderate, moderate success, but I didn't like the business side of it. And then I was so for me, it was a lot of figuring out what I didn't want to do. Joe: Uh huh. Tracy: Like I was like, oh, you know, and because I'm a hard worker and I'm industrious, kind of whatever job I had before, like, we'll promote you to manager, we'll make it up. And it was a very much a series of like, oh, I don't want to do this. I don't want to spend the day doing this. And when this business started, it was the first thing that I was like, I want to do this every day, like the rhythm of it, the helping the clients, the feeling of satisfaction when it was done. It was the first I mean, I liked other things that I did, but Joe: Mm Tracy: It Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Wasn't I was like, oh, I want to do this all day, every day. Like, I you know, technically the joke is I would do it for free. Well, there was like a year I did do it for free. It's literally like that is a brutal I'll tell anybody, the entrepreneurs, people starting a business, track your hours, track what you're getting paid, do that math because it'll gut punch you and it'll make you rethink everything. Like Joe: Goup. Tracy: When you realize, oh, I'm working for four dollars an hour. No, no, no, no, no. That's an important lesson for everybody and it makes you really rethink things. So it really wasn't until this until this business started that I realized my purpose. Joe: Right, and if I remember reading correctly, it came out of you being this service assistant to this, right? And then. Tracy: Director Yahya. Joe: Yeah, and then everybody you were helping, everybody saw all the stuff you were doing and it just went from there and then you realized. Tracy: And I'd always been, you know, it always been of service and my grandmother was there, like my grandmother was the lady at the church who kind of did everybody's books and she was a secretary at the church. And we were forever if somebody was sick, I spent a lot of time with her, we would drive over to somebody's house and we'd take them to the post office. So for me, helping people in sort of an admin sense was just a being of service. That's just what we did. We were a nice person. You help your friends. So I never thought about monetizing it. I never thought that it was a service that people desperately needed desperately. I was like, Joe: Right. Tracy: Well, of course, you know how to move yourself. You just pack your boxes. Now, people don't know how to do that. So when I realized that there were so many people that either didn't have the time or the inclination and there was a way to offer the service, get paid, help them know that was the perfect marriage, that was like, oh, this is a something that's desperately needed. And I feel like for kind of where we are in the world, it's interesting. But I think as we get further away from making things ourselves, knowing how to sew, knowing how to cook, that there are more and more people that I mean, they can do things for themselves. They just it's I Joe: I know. Tracy: You know, it's just it's just really interesting. I'm a little worried and I have young nieces and nephews, and so I'm very worried about what they can do. And so I it's just it's interesting that this has become very desperately needed service. Joe: Yeah, OK, so the name of the business is dclutterfly, right, Tracy: Correct, yep, Joe: That Tracy: DClut Joe: It's Tracy: ter Joe: A Tracy: fly. Joe: Mouthful, the cutter Tracy: Oh, trust Joe: Fly. Tracy: Me. Oh, and trust me, here's another thing I'll say to aspiring entrepreneurs. When you name your business, say it out loud all day. So it would be easy to come off the time and then try and spell the website, because that's something else I didn't think about. So when I give people the email, they there's D.. C. There's no Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Easy people leave it up. So do a little bit of market research. Go. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Can Joe: That Tracy: I, can Joe: It Tracy: I say this. Yeah. Joe: It's so funny, it's all those Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Little things you learn as you're doing it, you print your business cards and people, and especially you get older clients that want the help with some of these services that you have. And the prince too small and you're just like, oh, my God. Tracy: I went I went through that I rebranded the company about two, three years ago and the designers did a beautiful job and I was like, the font is too small and they're like white. And I'm like, oh, I'm like they're like we have like less tags, bigger font. Joe: Yes. Tracy: Like the bulk of my clients are over 50, like make it big. Joe: Right, right. That's awesome. Tracy: I, I just about a year ago I bought my first about a truck, a 17 foot truck because we're so busy and I got it wrapped and it's like my traveling billboard and I was like no bigger, bigger, Joe: Mm Tracy: Bigger Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Phone, no bigger. And the guy that the drug had the rapping place, like, are you sure? I'm like, bigger, bigger, Joe: That's Tracy: Bigger. Joe: Awesome. That's perfect. OK, so your your I know you have clients all over, but you're you're based out of California. Tracy: Yeah, and based in Los Angeles pre pandemic, we were I was in New York a lot traveling a lot post pandemic were starting to travel again. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: I'll go anywhere. But right now it's been the book is Los Angeles to New York. Joe: Ok, perfect. So I want to go through the services quick, because I want everyone Tracy: Yeah. Joe: To sort of understand. And so I want to start with the home, the home de cluttering and it also on on the website, his office as well. And that's that's an important piece for me. And I think the audience, because if there are entrepreneurs out there, like my desk was clean a couple of weeks ago and now I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of videos and I have research materials and now it's starting to become something that I can't look at. So. So Tracy: Yep. Joe: Let's start with that. The home deck fluttering, plus the office stuff. And and just a brief explanation of each so that at least we can get an idea Tracy: Yes, Joe: Of what that means. Tracy: That's great. Go home and office cluttering is if your space that you live in or work in is unmanageable. I always tell people the really good litmus test is if you can't tidy up a room and make it presentable where you have somebody else walk in in 20 minutes or less, you have too much stuff. So that services we come in, we help people sort through it. We help people figure out what they need to keep, what they need to let go of, and then creating systems for where it goes. So in an office, where do you keep your printer? Is it near the printer where you keep your paper? How much paper do you need to print out? Can we move you to digital? And if we move you to digital, how do you organize it? How do you find that is a really important thing in offices, in the whole home, but really in your offices, where do you put the things you need to keep so that you can access them when you need them, that you can go and buy? And don't tell me. I know there's people out there that are saying I know where everything is in my office. There's giant piles on their desk. I'm like, that doesn't count. You Joe: Right. Tracy: Can't point to a giant pile and say, oh, I know what's in there. First of all, you don't I'm talking about you won't be able to find it like, Joe: Right. Tracy: You know, creating filing systems or digital filing systems. And it's and again, the really underlying message is this isn't about creating a home that you can put on Instagram or Pinterest. You can if you want. It's about creating a space that works for you. And now if you are working from home pandemic, from home schooling, from home, all you got to make your space work. You just have to make your space work. They've done so many studies, they scientists about the effects of clutter and stress. It just this is all about that. It raises your cortisol so puts you in a fight or flight your brain. I'm sure you've probably talked about this on here, but decision fatigue, where you make so many decisions, your brain just shuts down. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Will every piece of clutter in your house is a decision? Do I need it? Do I not need it? Where does it live? So the physical and mental effects of clutter are very real, very, very, very real. So my purpose isn't, again, to create I'm not saying be a minimalist. I'm not a minimalist. You know, it works for you. But is your home is your office working for you? Is it working for you? Chances are for a lot of people it's not. Joe: Right. Tracy: And that's OK. You may not we don't know what we don't know. Right. So if it's not working and if you have an issue with that or if if it's tough for you, you know, it it's like I always say, if you didn't know how to play the violin, you have beat yourself up like I wasn't born knowing how to play the violin. You might not have been born organized. You might have spatial issues. You might have added. There may be a bunch of things. So let's not beat yourself up for it. Let's educate and get it working for you. Joe: Yeah, you hit it on the head because cluttered just causes me angst, like I hate my garage, I hate walking in my garage, and so I understand it, Tracy: Can you even walk in your garage because only 20. Joe: But it's lucky I can. There's so many of our neighbors that have their cars in their driveway, in the hot sun here in Arizona because they have so much stuff in their garage. And that was like priority number one. My Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Car has to go in the garage. It's one hundred Tracy: Only, Joe: And thirteen outlets like. Tracy: Yeah, only twenty five percent of Americans can park their cars in their garage. Joe: Really? Tracy: Seventy five percent of Americans who have garages cannot park their cars Joe: That's Tracy: That. Joe: Amazing. Tracy: I know, I always say I always say we put our forty thousand fifty thousand dollar cars on the street where we fill our garage with trash. Joe: That's you know what, and you might I don't want to put you on the spot, but I can't imagine what the statistic is of people that have storage units and how many times they visit that unit a year. I just Tracy: It's Joe: I, I could Tracy: It's Joe: Never bring Tracy: A. Joe: Myself to have one. Tracy: This is where I get on my soapbox, this is the thing I get on my cell phone calls Joe: I Tracy: About Joe: Knew this was Tracy: And Joe: Going to kick Tracy: I Joe: Something Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Off here. Tracy: It's a billion dollar industry, a billion dollars. I have been in no exaggeration, hundreds of storage units, hundreds. I have had clients who because I make them do it, I've done the math of what they've spent on that storage unit. Twenty thousand thirty thousand a hundred thousand dollars. I have never once and I say it is no exaggeration, I have never once been in a storage unit or what's in there is worth more than what they paid to store it. It is a colossal waste of money. You will never go there if you have something in storage that you can't access. Why are you storing it? Joe: That's. Tracy: There is it is. I like till I'm blue in the face, I'm like, get rid of it, get rid of it, get rid. I have had clients crumble to their knees when they open it up and see what they've been saving. There's no there's like one or two slight somebody sometimes doing a remodel. There's a few Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Where I'm like, oh no, no, maybe. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Let's Joe: It's. Tracy: See if we can find another way. It is, it is just take money and just burn it because Joe: Correct. Tracy: It is such a waste of money. Joe: Amen. I agree with Tracy: Yeah. Joe: You. I just it's so funny, and I just figured I'd throw that out because I, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: I knew that was going to trigger. Tracy: Yeah, I know, and it's people don't go there and they don't it's just really like if I can convince anything to anybody, just don't have it, don't Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Have it, don't Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Get it. Because once you get it, you're never going to empty. Joe: Ok, real quick on the on the topic of the home and office right now in your business, how much is home and how much is it? When I say office, I'm not talking about Home Office because I'm I would think because of covid home offices are on the rise because so many. Right. So Tracy: Yeah. Joe: But but do you actually go to commercial office spaces to help CEOs Tracy: I do, Joe: And. Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that in covid has just worn Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Down, Joe: Yep. Tracy: We haven't done any, but we have definitely we definitely will go in like work with big offices, like how do people use their space? How do people do that? I'm going to be really interesting to see if that. Comes back after covid, I Joe: Mm Tracy: Think Joe: Hmm. Tracy: We're going to get a lot of those calls, the way the business sort of shakes out now, I mean, right now we've just been trying to get everybody off. Does that how that was that was like how do you work from home? How do you go from home? That's been a big one, but it's probably it's probably a third of the business is senior downsizing. A third of the businesses are moving services and a third of the business is declaring Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Home declaring and then probably 20 percent that is office. I'm excited. I also think that when we go back, how offices work are going to change because everybody's like open floor plan. And now it's like, well, maybe not so much. So I'll be curious to see how that goes. I've also interestingly, too, I've had a couple calls lately about helping already offices, office companies that are moving small, 10 people, companies that are moving and setting up the office spaces before people even get in there. So that's a that's a thing that's starting to happen. And I think it's really how to keep people safe and covid and that kind of stuff. So that's that's always interesting to me. Joe: Perfect. OK, so let's go down the list here, so the next one that I have is closet audit. And Tracy: That's a good one. Joe: I Tracy: Yep. Joe: Know. Tracy: So, yeah, I have a couple of the people who work for me are like they can make it look like the Carrie Bradshaw perfect closet. So we come in, we help you figure out what you wear, what you don't wear. Get rid of the stuff that you don't wear. We donate everything. And then it's organizing like the like color coordinated matching hangers. Like it's really. And the thing first of all, it looks beautiful, but also your clothes are an armor that you go out into the world with. And if you have if you have a business where you have to meet with clients or you have to go in and pitch your services to another company, if you start your day off digging through the laundry basket to put something on, you're starting at a deficit. You're already starting stressed. I wear the same thing to work every day. I have 10 shirts from the same company, ten different colors. I have four pairs of jeans. I have my nice Nike shoes that are comfortable, but they're fashionable. I don't want to think about it. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: I want to get dressed. I wear a nice belt, I look presentable, but I look like I can roll my sleeves up. I figured out what works and I don't think about it. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Just don't think about it. And I start my day ready to go. It's not my morning isn't about like, oh, what am I going to wear? What am I. So people have to understand, if your closet is disorganized, it's not serving you right. You're already starting the day. Right? Where are my keys? I packed my lunch and what happens and what people don't understand is, OK, so you're taking your clothes out a laundry basket, you can't find your keys. You're running late. Oh, you didn't make yourself breakfast. So you're going to go through the drive thru. So you're going to eat Egg McMuffin and coffee like you've already set your day up so that you're not at your peak. Joe: He. Tracy: Right. You know, if you knew if your clothes were organized, you could get dressed, then you could make yourself that delicious smoothie that's healthy. You could start your day relaxed. And that's my whole I get out into the world ready to go, not frazzled. And especially if you've got kids like Model Man, those parents with the Zoom schooling like Joe: Oh, Tracy: To Joe: I know, Tracy: Have that, you Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Know, to have that extra to anywhere we can grab time. That's what the goal is. So if your closet's organized, you've just gained yourself fifteen minutes, right? Oh, those are my jeans are those are my shirts are great. Off Joe: Yeah, Tracy: We go. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So that's a really closet. We love deposits. We love it. We love it. We love it. And we do the really big fancy lady those. But we love closet. Joe: Let me before we get off the closet audit subject are what you do with closets, do you ever get in a situation where you go and and they not only want you to organize, but they want you to actually help design a more efficient closet, and then you Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Have to bring in Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Like a company that does all of the shelving and Tracy: Yep, Joe: Ok. Tracy: Yep, it's it's great, we've I've really started in probably about in the last three or four years of service, I'll consult on construction. So clients that I've worked with for a long time are building new homes or remodeling their homes. So I'll come in in the design phase and meet with the architect and the contractor and say, OK, look, this is how many pairs of shoes they have. This is how long this is. So I love doing Joe: Oh, Tracy: That. Joe: Cool. Tracy: It's I love it. It's a constant fight because architects do not believe people have as much stuff as they have Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Contractors don't listen to forever, like the person that's like there's no broom closet, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, Joe: Yep, yep. Tracy: There's no broom closet. They're like, what do you need? A broom closet for it? Like, we need a broom closet. Joe: Right, Tracy: We need a real good bit. Joe: Right. Tracy: So that's been really fun. I have been pitching it. I'm working on my second book, but I have been pitching for a little while. I want to do a book, so I'll probably be down the road a bit. But I want to do a book between myself, an architect, an interior designer and a cabinet worker Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: About how to remodel or build houses in the most efficient way. So that's Joe: Oh, Tracy: Super exciting. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah, it's super exciting. Joe: All right, cool. We've already touched upon this a little bit, but garage organizations, brutal. Tracy: Our favorite is Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Brutal, it's brutal. We we do it, we got we have packages one, two, three days a team goes in there. I'm at the point now where I don't do any more garages. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Never need to be in a sweaty garage Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Again. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: But my team's really good at it. It's a big and post covid this this one's been really people lots of people have been called in. They're like, we have so much toilet paper, we have so much canned goods. And that was one in terms of this is actually a great entrepreneurial point. This was one of the services that I realized. So one of the things I'm constantly balancing is how do I work on my business and in my business? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: In my business is a cult of personality. People want me. People will wait for me, people will pay for me. But I can only work so many hours so I couldn't grow the business if I'm doing it. So I had to find some of the services closets. I hired two people who are amazing at it. Garages are another way. It was a service that I could offer where people got the Tracy McCubbin experience, but I don't have to do it. So it Joe: So. Tracy: Was a way to go vertical. And that was a big learning like, oh right. This is something I can hand off, you know, get my team up to speed on it. And it's a good moneymaker for us and Joe: Yeah. Tracy: It's a really good moneymaker. So it's if you are starting a business and if you especially are sort of a consulting service, what are the services that somebody else can do? But your clients still feel like they're getting you. Joe: Yeah, man, you hit it on the head, it's so hard, they want they want you, you are the brand and it's such a hard thing to break away from and it's such a hard thing to hand over to trust other people. Tracy: Oh, yeah, Joe: Yeah, I get it. Tracy: It's Joe: I get it Tracy: You know, everybody Joe: Now. Tracy: Knows if, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You know, you know, it's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Really been in there and especially we were like, oh, wait, you're like it's a six week wait. And now, like, I don't care. And Joe: Yeah, Tracy: I was like, OK. Joe: Yeah, I know it's explain the moving services. Tracy: Yeah, that's been a big that's been our biggest thing during covid because we were essential workers, that we were able to do it and so I started when I started. This is another great entrepreneurial lesson. When I started, I just oversaw the move. So I would just take over, become the client, but the movers. And then we started offering de cluttering before people moved. So all the stuff you didn't want to take with you, let's get rid of it, not pack it up. Then we would unpack and organize into the new houses. So it was like, OK, we'd oversee. We get everything to the new house, we'd unpack and organize. And then I was like, wait, why? If we're doing the de cluttering and we're putting things in piles, why don't we just start doing the packing also? So it was another service that I could add that I didn't have to do. So we now did clutter pack, oversee the move and unpack into the new house. And we deal with very complicated situations like going to two houses or we do a lot after people, but people have passed away people's parents. So the grown kids have full time jobs. They can't be here for two weeks. So we'll empty the whole house, get everything shipped across the country. And so it's been a great. So that was another way to realize to go vertical. Right. Joe: Skep. Tracy: Here's another service I can offer. It doesn't take my time. It dovetails perfectly, we're declaring. So we might as well pack anyway. Know I bought a 17 foot truck. I hired a couple of expert packers and it's been a great part of the business. So I always invite people from my own experience to like, what's the what's the thing that you're outsourcing that could you move it in the house and make it part of your vertical? Joe: Yeah, yeah, it's such a great service because there's a huge gap there, there are great moving companies and they will provide Tracy: Oh. Joe: The services to pack stuff up, but it's just merely taking what's in a cabinet and putting it in a box and taping it up. There's no rhyme or reason. So when you get to the new property, you're like, where is this and where is it back? And you're moving Tracy: Yeah. Joe: A box from that landed in a bedroom that should have been in the kitchen and all. Tracy: And Joe: It's. Tracy: Look, I work with I work with moving companies all the time, I you know, they're amazing at what they do. Those teams work so hard. I have great relationship, about three or four moving local while I have about six and Joe: Mm Tracy: Everything. Joe: Hmm. Tracy: They're fantastic. But the story I always tell when people are like, well, why should I hire you as the movers? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: We're a little more expensive them and not much. Ten dollars an hour. And I tell the story of a client of mine who was a musician when on tour movers packed all our stuff up, put it in storage. We unpacked for her. And it was it was I unpacked a box and there were literally like a year old half-Eaten Sarcone and a Starbucks coffee. Joe: Oh. Tracy: And she was like she was like, oh, that's where that where the movers just pack everything Joe: Like, Tracy: In sight. Right? That's what they do there Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Based on time, their speed, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: They're doing it. So for us, we go in, we did clutter, we pack in an organized manner so that everything goes in room. So in a way, I tell people it feels like a more expensive service, but we actually save you on Joe: Mm Tracy: The other Joe: Hmm. Tracy: End Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Because it's super organized. We love it. It's one of my favorite favorite and especially the sounds so strange to say, but helping people after a family member has passed away Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Is it is one of my favorite services. It's so hard. It's so emotional. It's heartbreaking when the liquidation company comes in as your child is not worth saving your coffee cups, are they? They are. It's heart breaking. So to be able to honor the legacy of a family, deal with the, you know, not not pretty part. It's just it's one of my favorite things that we can do for people, Joe: Yeah, that's Tracy: Really, Joe: Really cool. Tracy: Is. Joe: So we can talk about that next sense, you kind of moved into that and then we'll get to the last one. So let's talk about the state. Kicklighter because Tracy: Yeah. Joe: That to me is that along with the other one, which is the senior downsizing, to me, those are both very, very sensitive type situations. Like you said, there's emotions that are involved in and these two things. So how do you deal with that? Tracy: You know, for me, it's I view it as such an important service. I know how difficult it is. I've had to do it for both. My grandparents like to I just know that it really providing a service that not many people do. And we my company is very special. There are a lot of organizing companies out there, but there's not I have been in this business longer than anybody. I, I know what's valuable. I know what's not valuable. I have the sensitivity. Everyone who has worked for me. We're all a little we're all a little damaged. We all have a little trauma in our childhood. We all have something to draw on. We've all been caregivers to family members. So we have so much respect. I just feel so honored that a family would trust us for this. And we just did a family. There were four children. Three of the children were on board. The parents lived into their 90s and it was taught it was time Joe: No. Tracy: For them to go. And there were three of the children were on the same page and one was an outlier and that that one person was making it very difficult for everybody else. And so to be able to step in and a little bit be the bad guy like these, these books aren't worth anything. Yes, they are. It is. It was like, OK, well, let's get the appraiser in. And then the appraisers, they're not worth anything. Joe: Right, Tracy: So being Joe: Right. Tracy: Able to sort of draw from my Rolodex and and my experience, like I've donated I've donated thousands of sets of China. It's not worth anything. I'm Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Sorry. I'm so sorry. It doesn't mean that your holidays when you were growing up weren't important. It doesn't mean that you have the memories that you have. And if you love that China and it brings back those memories, keep it. But if you are keeping it because you think it's the family fortune, then we're going to have a different conversation. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So I just feel so honored to be a part of it. I've met such interesting people and when this steps into the senior downsizing, when we move seniors from lifelong homes into smaller places, a lot of what we're facing when we declare in these phases is our own mortality, right? Oh, right. We're going to die someday. You know, did my life matter if I don't have the staff? Did I make an impact? So it's very I just feel very, very, very lucky that I get to be a part of this process with people. I hear amazing stories. I met amazing people. We always approach it with love and laughter and humor and respect. And it's just a nobody. Nobody does this. Nobody does this. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: I Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Know Joe: It's Tracy: I Joe: A Tracy: Get Joe: Great Tracy: Phone calls Joe: Service, Tracy: All the time. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: It's Tracy: It's Joe: So Tracy: It's. Joe: It's tricky, it's emotional and elderly people become a little bit they don't trust people. They don't know you're in their house Tracy: They Joe: Or. Tracy: Shouldn't, Joe: No. No. Right. Tracy: They Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Shouldn't, Joe: Right. And so Tracy: They shouldn't. Joe: That's a tricky balance. Tracy: We are one of our favorite things. We just did it last week. We've said we're now we've been working for so long, we're now helping parents of clients. Right. So kind of my mom died. I went to Nashville to help. I went to New York and doing that. But what we've been doing, a lot of which I love, is moving someone into an assisted living or community. So we like it. Like we feel like we're on a TV show. We're like, OK, we've got 12 hours until we get the apartment all set up so that when they're making the move, the drive from the old and they get to the new, their artwork is hung up. Joe: Oh, Tracy: The TV's Joe: That's cool, Tracy: Working, their bed is made Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tracy: So that they walk into this new experience with familiarity. And we love it. We're like running around sweating like they would do it, do Joe: Yeah, Tracy: It. But Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Then they walk in and they see their stuff and it's home. They're not stepping into boxes everywhere. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So this is this is it's my favorite part of what we I mean, I love everything that we do, but this one's really that's really important. Joe: That's very cool, just the way you describe. That was awesome. A couple of questions out of the way of the business. And then I want to get into the book and then I want to get into Tracy: If. Joe: The chair, the organization, and we're running out of time because this is I love this, but Tracy: It's great, Joe: It's Tracy: It's great. Joe: So if somebody wants to work with your company and in a sense you're based in California, let's just say somebody here in Arizona, I wanted to hire you to come in and clean out my crotch. How does somebody work with you that is in like how do you work in other states with people? Tracy: Yeah, we do it know we pay our rates, they just cover travel costs so we can make it sometimes. Sometimes if I'm in other cities, like in New York, I have two women who I can subcontract to sometimes all subcontract. I'll go myself and maybe bring one of my people and then subcontract to try and use the local companies that do that. I have I'm getting a pretty good network. I mean, I'm very I have very high standards, Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: So I'm pretty I need somebody to be tried and true. But I can I can make it work. But yeah, it's just it's the same rates. It's not more it's just the travel cost. So Joe: Perfect. Tracy: A lot of times when people they're realizing like, oh, it's actually, you know, the other thing I've started to do for clients to if they if they I got a client who had to go to Florida and they just didn't have a sister, their mom passed away. They didn't have the means to pay my travel costs. So I actually helped interview local people for him. So I'll do that for my clients. Like, let me let me make the first phone calls. Let me have the conversation. And I just because I'm I'm very mama bear about my client if I want Joe: The. Tracy: To and I want to just go to anybody. Joe: Perfect. All right. And you scared me for a moment because you almost sound like you're bleeding into my my last thing about the business, which is the virtual dcluttering. So how do you handle that? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Is that like Tracy: You Joe: A Tracy: Know, Joe: Face time walking around with an iPad? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Show me this Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Room. Tracy: Yeah, yeah, we do. So the virtual declaring, it's been a bit of an experiment to make it work. And what I've found is that we it's it's we have to set very specific goals. So oftentimes we break it up into half an hour sessions. One session is about right. Here's what you're going to get accomplished. Here's less paperwork. You have these four boxes of paperwork. What are you going to do with them? I don't as much sit there and sort of go through things with them. It's more about helping them come up with a work plan, what the traps are going to fall into, then a period of time, and then we come back and go over it and they ask me specific questions about what they got stuck at. So it's Joe: Got. Tracy: Really almost the virtual it almost becomes a little bit more time management focused help you come up with a work plan. How can you get it accomplished? I also have I have a private Facebook group called Concreter Clever with Tracy McCubbin. It's a free Facebook. I go live pretty much every Wednesday and people can that's a really great it's a very supportive community. Everybody's read my book. We're all so sometimes people would join their and the group will help them. So that's that's great. They're like, OK, it's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: A lot of accountability this weekend I'm going to tackle. And that's what the virtual turned out to be. Two is a lot of accountability. Joe: That's great. OK, cool. OK. The book came out in 2019 called "Making Space, Clutter Free" and you can get it on. I know you can get it on Amazon. I think I saw two other Tracy: Indie Joe: There was an Tracy: Bound. Joe: Indie Tracy: I think Joe: Band Tracy: It's indie band. Joe: Of. Tracy: Yeah, I send people to either Amazon, there's a really great website called Bookshop Dawg Joe: Ok. Tracy: And it connects all the independent booksellers. So you it's a clearinghouse. And so if you don't want to give the man who just went into space more of your money, bookshop dog is a great way. It's available on Kindle. It's available ebook. It's available as an audio book. I narrated Joe: Oh, great. Tracy: A lot of. Yeah, it was great. A lot of libraries have it. They did a really big push. So your local library has it and it's great. It's great. It's doing really well. It got to be an Amazon bestseller and it's an evergreen book. It is not going out of style, Joe: That's Tracy: So. Joe: Awesome, yeah. The reviews Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Are great. Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So making space clutter free. The nice thing about it is we really delve into the emotional part so very deep about the emotional part. And then there's an actual work plan, how you tackle the house room by room. So people are really it's just I'm very, very happy with that. And I'm in the process of writing the second book called Make Space for Happiness. And it's a it's about why we shop, why we overshot the holes in our lives that we're trying to fill by shopping. Joe: Mm Tracy: So Joe: Hmm, Tracy: It's a little Joe: That's called. Tracy: I love it. I love it. But it's going to be a little controversial. Joe: That's Tracy: I Joe: All right. Tracy: Feel like I feel like I feel like that man who just went into space is not going to like what I have to say. But, you know, Joe: Well, I like to think about Tracy: You. Joe: The closet that I saw one thing and one thing out, right? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: That's awesome. Tracy: It's very practical, it's very you know, there's a lot of oversimplified I think that part of the feedback I always get and I know from growing up with the parent that I did it. And also some people understand a lot of times reporting is generational. So Joe: He. Tracy: I my I had two other a great uncle. It's a genetic thing. It's a it's an anxiety disorder. I think it's a bit of an addiction. I think that people who hoard get a big dopamine hit when they find something. So there's just a lot of empathy. I'm not judging. I'm not shaming. I under I understand how hard it is. And Joe: Yet. Tracy: So people really respond to that. Joe: Yeah, OK, cool. One last question, I thought it was really cool you had the Clutter Block Quiz on your website and you talk about blocks, right? Clutter blocks. Tracy: Yep, Joe: Can you real Tracy: Yep, Joe: Quickly, can you just. Tracy: Sure, and this is the crux of the book. So basically a clutter block is an emotional story that we tell ourselves about why we can't let go of what we don't want or need. So it's so there are seven of them. And I witnessed this from working with clients for so long. I was like, this is that story again. This person is that same story. This is that. So it ranges everything from my stuff keeps me stuck in the past. Sentimental things that you can't let go of, the stuff I'm avoiding, which is your paperwork, which is me. That's my clutter block. I'm not worth my good stuff. So not using your nice things, saving Joe: Mm. Tracy: My fantasy stuff for my fantasy life. Oh, I'm going to become a rock climber. I'm going to knit, I'm going to buy all that stuff for this stuck with other people's stuff. And when in the book and in a Facebook group, I talk about it when you identify you're like, oh, this is a thing. The perfect example. Last Clutter Block No.7, the stuff I keep paying for, this is storage unit. You bought this stuff and now you're paying to store it. And when you see it that way, like, oh, I'm paying to store stuff I never use. Oh, it's like it's it's illuminated, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You're like, oh, this is why it's not I'm not a bad person. I'm not a bad person. This is just, you know, we're humans. We're meaning making machines. Right. We just rains on your wedding day that all that stuff. So we make all this meaning out of the stuff that's meaningless and it gets a hold on us. So the clutter blocks are really effective for people really, really affected, like, oh, this is real. This is you know, it's not just me. It's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Not just me. Joe: Yeah. All right, awesome. Before we move off of your business to the organization you're part of, because I think it's really important to talk about real quick. You've made incredible headway in the press, like being on the shows that you're on. And for the entrepreneurs that are listening to this, you could have just been another de cluttering company in California, right? You've said it yourself, Tracy: Amy. Joe: But you obviously you have a unique approach with all the different services you're passionate about. It's very clear by talking with you and everyone will pick up on that. When they listen to this and when they watch the YouTube video, they're going to tell that, yeah, this is this woman is really has the integrity and really loves what she does and it speaks to her. How did you get the the press and all of the stuff that has catapulted you to be the expert in this field? I mean, it's it's amazing, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: The Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Shows Tracy: Yeah, Joe: You've been on and the podcast Tracy: It's Joe: And. Tracy: Yeah, it's great. So I think the thing the first thing that I got really clear about was a couple of things. One, people need content, TV shows need content. Morning news means content, podcasts meet. Everybody needs content. So even if you have a product or a service, you know, there's a mission statement behind it. There's a reason that you're doing it. So what's the what's the story that you can tell about why your service is going to help? Or how can you tell your mission statement and not even mention your product? If you can talk about the service or what you're offering, you know, how can you talk about it without even mentioning it, then that's the content and people need it. And I'll tell you, you say yes to everything. I have been I mean, my favorite story is like morning news show in Temecula, California, like sandwiched in between the October Fest dancers and the like kid who won the spelling bee, like I said, yes to everything. And I worked on my media training. I worked on the messaging. I really understood that you have to be able to communicate it. And so I just started saying yes. And then it I got a reputation for being good and delivering and I did. I have worked with when the book came out, I did work with a publicist. I found the best person who specializes in non-fiction authors. That's the other thing about PR. If you're going to pay for PR and you sometimes you have to and you're the two things you're paying for someone's Rolodex. So who can they call? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Who do they have connections to? And also you need to find the person who understands what you do. Right? So let's say you have a company where you've invented a new kind of pool cover that will save children's lives, superimportant, Joe: Mm Tracy: Needed. Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Don't hire a publicist who works with beauty products. Joe: All right. Tracy: Right. Like really honed down on what you're offering and can that person help it? And sometimes you need to sometimes you need to pay a marketing person. Sometimes you need to pay a social media manager. We can't do it all. So it's really understanding, understanding how valuable those marketing and publicity dollars are. Right. Because they can get expensive Joe: Oh, Tracy: Fast. Joe: Yeah. Mm hmm. Tracy: You can turn around. And I mean, you people are out there and starting to look at that, you know, problems and say, oh, yeah, we have a ten thousand dollar per month retainer. You're like, oh, so what are their goals? What are their goals for you? How can you help? And I always say this. You can't for those kinds of positions. It's like if you have an agent, right? I have a literary agent. Help me with my book. She takes 10 percent of my money. She does ten percent of the work. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Still got to do the 90 percent. So you can't dump and run against. Oh, I have a publicist. I don't have to do it. Now you are working in conjunction with them. It's your product. No one's going to care more about your business than you are. So show up. Say yes to everything. You know, like be realistic. It's like I want to be on Good Morning America. OK, well, you start following the October 1st dancers. You just say yes, you say Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Because first of all, it gives you practice, Joe: At. Tracy: It gives you practice and you hone your message. And and this is where the Internet is fantastic. Reach out to podcasts, you know, get really clear about the content you have to offer. Just cold call people, cold email people. Here's what I want to say. Like people that you listen to where the message across, it's the biggest it's the least fun. The marketing and publicity is the least one part about running a business, I think. But the most important. Joe: Yeah, well, you've done great, it's amazing Tracy: No, Joe: And Tracy: Thank you. Joe: Yeah, it's absolutely awesome. Did I miss anything about the business that you would like to talk about before we move on to the organization? Tracy: The only thing I would say is that if you're out there and if you're struggling with your relationship to your staff, don't be afraid to find help locally. Joe: Love it. Tracy: There's lots of people who are opening this business. Reach out to me. I can give you some questions to ask. So don't be afraid to ask for help. Joe: Perfect. OK, one kid, one world. Tracy: Yeah. Joe: It's super cool. I went and I looked at the website, I watched the videos and can you explain what it does? You know, what what the the mission of it is? And then Tracy: Yeah, Joe: I Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Don't want to forget Tracy: So. Joe: After you do that. I want to understand when a volunteer goes, are they just volunteering their time and you get them there and you get them back or so let's start with Tracy: Sure, Joe: The organization Tracy: Yeah, yeah, Joe: First. Tracy: Yeah, so basically, quick story, my childhood friend of mine, our dads, went to law school together. He went to Darfor and he was in the volunteering in the refugee camps and he realized that the bulk of the people in the refugee camps were women and children and that they were setting up schools and setting up little shops, like trying to get normalise as much as possible and realizing, as we all know, that education is the key. So we ate on that trip. He met a Kenyan doctor, a nurse. They told him about this girl's school in Kenya that needed a science lab. The girls couldn't take their exams because they didn't have a science lab. So he said to me, it's twenty five thousand dollars. Want to help me raise that? Let's throw a party. You know, our our peers were all starting to make money and their careers were taking off. So we threw the party, raise the money. We're like, let's just go and see. Let's just go and see what this is. And we went and it was life changing. Joe: Mm Tracy: Here Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Were these girls. And in Kenya, most of them are orphans because HIV AIDS Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: And the desire for education. And so there's a lot of organizations that are curriculum based and this and that. And what we were like were like they don't have desks to sit in. There are no there's no room. There's not. So we started focusing on capital improvements. We built buildings, we built dorms, we put desks, we put bookshelves, we pay teachers salaries. We put nurses in the school. We just do the things that they need to stay open. We never build a school from scratch ever. We know nothing about what the community needs. We get in partnership with a community where a school has already been established. We do not affect curriculum, not for us to say Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: We try and work in schools that have at least a 50 percent girl population because girls education is much underfunded. A big part of what we do is we supplied feminine hygiene products to our girls school because that keeps girls out of school. So we're we work mostly in Kenya and then we have branched out to Central America of Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala. And, you know, it's an amazing it's amazing where we started the same year I started my business. So I did both of those. I think we're up to like twenty six schools we rebuilt. And part of our fundraising model is we do volunteer trips. So we go, for instance, to Central America. We fly for a long weekend. We rebuild a suite. We don't we do the big capital improvements before we get there. And then when we're there, we demolish bathrooms and paint murals and get very, very involved. And for us, what we found is that there's sort of two types of donors. There is the vicarious donors who your friend goes and see the work that the friends do and donate that way. And then there are the people who want to see where the money goes, really make a difference. So when you go on a trip with us, you you commit to raising a certain amount of money when you come back. And we always had our goals. We never operated a deficit. We don't ever take on projects that we can't finish. We're very lucky. Both Josh and I have other businesses that we work for free. We don't Joe: Mm Tracy: Take a Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Salary. So we're like we're at like ninety percent of every dollar we raise goes back. And not that, not that. I don't think that nonprofit workers should not be paid. They absolutely should be. But we choose for us. We choose not to. And it's been it's been great. It's been one of where a couple of years ago, our first round of girls started to go to college in nursing school and technical school. And it's it's really amazing. It's a really, really, really amazing covid has been really hard. We haven't been able to go. I think next spring will be our first trip if everything goes OK. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: But it's been a really amazing it's been an amazing thing to be a part of. It's been an amazing thing to be a part of. Joe: Yeah, it was really cool, I watched the video and I saw where there was a person taking Polaroids and then everyone and then the Polaroid was there was a square where the Polaroid would go on the piece of paper and each student had to say, I'm going to be a doctor Tracy: Yeah. Joe: There or I'm going to be a nurse, or it was a radical. Tracy: Well, one of the funny things I get I invented invented this exercise, I was realizing, talking to the girls in Kenya, that because they didn't have parents, so many of them, they didn't they never they didn't know how to make a business phone call. They didn't know how to apply for a job because it's like the teachers are teaching them. But there's not that. So I started to do this exercise where they would be the shop owner and I'd be like another volunteer. And I like I'd be the bad like I wouldn't say, you know, I'd say my name really quiet. I wouldn't shake a hand. And you just did these roleplaying exercises of how to apply for a job. When you realize, like, you have to learn that stuff, you don't know you don't know how to call someone and say, hey, here's my name or walk into a shop or say like, I'd like a job and walk in with confidence. And so now it's like day can't wait. Every time we go, we all line Joe: And Tracy: Up Joe: That's Tracy: And they Joe: Called. Tracy: All get to pretend. And, you know, it's such a it's such an amazing just right to have the self-confidence to get go in there and do that. And so it's very practical and we love it. We love Joe: That's Tracy: It. Joe: Awesome, Tracy: We love it. We can't wait to get back. So Joe: I'm Tracy: If anybody Joe: Sure. Tracy: Out there is listening and want to come on a trip with us, one kid, one world dog, tell me you heard me on here and would love to get. Joe: Awesome. OK, I've taken your time. I've gone over, I apologized, Tracy: It's Joe: But Tracy: All right, Joe. We're Joe: This Tracy: Having Joe: Is Tracy: A great conversation. Joe: This was awesome. So let's give everyone the and I'll put it in the show notes, but the website for your business did clarify. Tracy: Yep, yep, so the website is dClutterfly.com, so a d c l u t t e r f l y dot com. See, this is why you say it Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Out before you name your business. The clutter block places on there. You can sign up for my newsletter. It's a great place to find me. I'm very active on Instagram. So Tracy_McCubbin and then if you are looking for some extra love and support, the private Facebook group, which is called "Conquer Yo

Forbearance ends: Will Albuquerque homes come out distressed? (Transcript Snippet): " Tracy: We look at a lot of indicators. Right. And the thing came up yesterday. Someone asked the question about all of the homes in forbearance and that one. Yeah, there's that one too. That whole question of all of a sudden a forbearance. And are we going to have a ton of houses come on. The market distressed? And our answer is Tego: No. In fact, the latest stats that came out this week on the whole forbearance and forbearance plans at down below 2 million, it was almost 7 million. At one point. Now it's down to 2 million, probably going to have a lot more drop-off because there's a bunch of them that expiration that expire in the next few months. And so either those people will you know, go into loss mitigation, meaning they'll go into some sort of you know, foreclosure, or maybe you do some sort of workout with, with the bank or they'll just pick up and start making their payments or they'll refinance or they'll sell. It just looks like most of those people that got into those forbearance plans are going to be able to come out of them without much difficulty, if Tracy: You're a listener and you're in a forbearance plan, you know, and you have questions about it, give us a ring Tego, or I would be happy to talk to you, you know, call the four, four eight, eight, eight, eight eight number. And just say, you want to talk to us about it because most people that are in forbearance, their house value has gone up over the last two years, year and a half. Tracy: You know, if, if you're not going to be able to pay for your mortgage, you know, you probably have equity that Tego: We could help you with. And, you know, Tracy: There's a lot of options to one of them and just real quickly as it might be that investor could buy your house and you could rent from them and not even move and have some cash in your pocket from selling your house. And we're seeing that happen Tego: In New Mexico in the last year on average homeowners gained $26,000 in equity. Tracy: Where else can you get that? Right? You don't get it by putting it in the bank. Tego: And, and so anyway, that's that, that was just, you know, one thing to bring up. https://welcomehomeabq.com Tracy & Tego Venturi Venturi Realty Group Keller Williams 1119 Alameda Blvd NW Albuquerque, NM 87114 (505) 448-8888 info@welcomehomeabq.com

Albuquerque's Real Estate Market: It's still frantic out there! (Transcript Snippet): "Tego: It's still pretty frantic out there in the real estate market. Is that a fair word? Tracy: You know, Tego? I didn't think we were going to talk about this, but let me tell you about Wednesday this week. Right? So we had, well, Wednesday and Thursday, we had four open houses, midweek for homes that had just gone on the market with us. I'm on two, three of them were in the Northeast Heights. And one was in far Northwest. We Rio Rancho on Thursday from four to six. Okay. And the Wednesday three open houses. I was at one of them and other agents from the team were at others. The house I was at had over a hundred visitors now, individual groups. Sometimes it was one person, three people formed with their realtors. Some without some have realtors, but were on their own, whatever, just coming to see the open house. Well, and it was Tego: The first time in and we've been doing this, right? Yeah. Tracy: It was the grand open house. First time anybody could see it. Yeah. I'm sure we had over 60 individual, not individual, 60 groups of people through. I mean, it was well over a hundred people at the house that I was at. The house Jane was at same thing over a, well, over a hundred people through that open house. Corey held a house open on Saint. She's the one who started this conversation among our team. And she was like, we had over a hundred people there. I'm sure of it. So her seller went to the ring doorbell and literally counted all of the people. And the seller says they had 500 people through their house that day. Corey said it was crazy. And luckily one of our title reps stopped by to give her some bottles of water to hand out and he stayed. So she wasn't there alone. But even though one in Northern Meadows, which is far Northwest Rio Rancho, you have to want to go there. You don't run into those signs. Right. The reason Tego: That one was in such high demand is it was, it was a lower price point. And definitely below the median, you know, our median is now up over $250,000. So, Tracy: So in any event she was exceptionally well attended as well. So what, what does that mean? We still have a lot of buyers in the market. A lot of people looking for the right house. Yep. And you know, it's interest rates are low. There's a lot of reasons we talked about them last week, Tego: As demand has not dropped off, Tracy: I would say in our market, based on this week and the number of showings we're having on houses, we've listed, demand is not dropping. https://welcomehomeabq.com Tracy & Tego Venturi Venturi Realty Group Keller Williams 1119 Alameda Blvd NW Albuquerque, NM 87114 (505) 448-8888 info@welcomehomeabq.com

Albuquerque Real Estate Market: Multi-Generational Housing on the Rise (Transcript Snippet): "Tego: Tracy, I'm going to change the subject. And I want to ask you about this trend that we've been seen now for quite a few years, and it's really catching on and the thing that's interesting talkie, well, wait, hold on, hold on. I'm building it. I'm building or making us wait. It's the multi-generational housing and, and we've seen builders adjusting their, their products to this meaning that has a, you know, there's a lot of different terms for it in law suite, in New Mexico, it's the casita or it's the granny flats, or, you know, whatever, whatever you want to call it. It's, it's kind of like the second home within the home and, and the thing that's interesting. There were some interesting stats here. Tracy, did you see this one? I did not. Yeah, it's a, well, there we go. So the percentage of total home sold in 2020 that were this kind of multi-generational type type home, where again, it had one of those things the, what did they call it? ADU auxiliary dwelling unit is another term you hear sometimes too. 12% of the home sold. Well, that's a pretty big, pretty big move in there saying the spring of, of it hit it, it hit even higher. So yeah, Tracy: You know what I find interesting looking at this visual that you pulled up that I hadn't seen before is the most common age range of these buyers for these homes that have, that is 41 to 55. Now that's young. These are people who are being [inaudible], but and the second age bracket is 75 to 95 years old. So they're buying it and having a space for them and moving in one of their child, children or something. But it's interesting. Cause 41 to 55 is pretty young right together. It's really young and they're buying these houses with a Caseta or an in-law suite or an extra living area that  is available. So  Tego: Did you want to hit on the benefits that people are saying from it was that where you were going? Tracy: I wanted to just say, you know several years ago Dr. Horton and Pulte started adding that option into their floor plans and they had spectacular, they have spectacular floor plans that have that in, you know, the in-laws suite, isn't just a bedroom with a bathroom, right. It's typically on a main floor if the whole house isn't main one, one level. But it also has some sort of an extra living space. So you've got a little living room in addition to a bedroom and then a small little kitchenette in addition to the bathroom, separate entrance sometimes. So we've seen that lately in Abrazo homes where they're building in the new neighborhood in the parade, Tego: You know, what can we just sidebar here for a second? Because we, we, we overlooked it. And we were talking about the parade of homes this weekend and that Abrazo homes, which is a local locally owned home builder here. They have a neighborhood right by the balloon park. Just what would it be? Just West, North, Tego: South and West of the balloon park, if you can envision that and  Tracy: Behind the big horizon business building, https://welcomehomeabq.com Tracy & Tego Venturi Venturi Realty Group Keller Williams 1119 Alameda Blvd NW Albuquerque, NM 87114 (505) 448-8888 info@welcomehomeabq.com

EAFH35: Tracy and Sabrina Shares Social Justice Experiences in an Interracial Family Dr. Dave: Tracy Trace and her daughter Sabrina. Welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. How are you guys doing today? Tracy: You go first Bri. Dr. Dave: She's like ... Sabrina: I'm good. How are you all? Dr. Dave: You good?… The post EAFH35: Tracy and Sabrina Shares Social Justice Experiences in an Interracial Family appeared first on Leaders share how-to practices - KnolShare with Dr. Dave Podcast on GrokShare.com.

The Who What How When and Why of Error Correction - TranscriptionTracy Yu: Welcome to the "TEFL Training Institute Podcast." The bite‑size TEFL podcast for teachers, trainers and managers.Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone.Tracy: Hi, welcome to our podcast.Ross: A lot of the time when we're hanging out and we speak Chinese to each other, I often ask you to correct my Chinese if I make any mistakes. When you do, it's really annoying.[laughter]Tracy: Why is that?Ross: I don't know. It's like there's something about being corrected. You always feel that you're making a comment about how bad my Chinese is and it really annoys me. I don't know, it's funny. I always say, "Can you please correct me more?" but when you do, it's really annoying.Tracy: Do you think that helps you?Ross: Yes, but it's bad for your motivation because you feel annoyed by it.Tracy: What's the point? [laughs]Ross: The point is that today our podcast is about error correction and helping students and trainees and stuff learn from their mistakes.Tracy: As usual, we got three main questions or areas that we're going to discuss.Ross: First one is, why do students make errors?Tracy: The second one, should we correct errors?Ross: Finally, what principles are there in correcting students' errors?Why do students make errors?Ross: Why do students make errors?Tracy: One reason is, is an evidence of learning and is a part of the learning process. We learn how to drive and we learn how to...Ross: Swim. [laughs]Tracy: ...cook, how to swim and new skills. We usually make some mistakes and then from the mistakes, we can learn how to do it better.Ross: Yeah, no one does anything perfectly the first time.Tracy: The first time, yeah.Ross: That's impossible. Something I found really interesting about developmental errors is this thing called...we're not going to go too much into the weeds here with Second Language Acquisition, but I just wanted to mention this because I thought it was so cool.This is an example of U‑shaped acquisition from Rod Ellis' book, "Second Language Acquisition." Instead of me reading them out, Tracy, can you just make a sentence with each of them and I'll do a commentary?Tracy: Sure.Ross: This is for students acquiring ate, as in the past tense of eat.Tracy: I eat pizza last night.Ross: This is when you've not been able to mark the past tense, that's all, which is the first stage, and then...?Tracy: I ate pizza last night.Ross: Really interesting, right? The first type of past tense verbs that students acquire are irregular ones, which Tracy just learned. Next?Tracy: I eated pizza last night.Ross: This is after you've started to learn the past tense rule of adding ‑ed onto the end of things, but you've overused it. You've overgeneralized it.Tracy: I ated pizza last night.Ross: Here you've made some hybrid between the two, and the final one?Tracy: I ate pizza last night.Ross: Great.Tracy: Which is correct.Ross: Which is, yeah, you've now acquired it. Congratulations.Tracy: [laughs] Thank you, but the second and the fifth stage, I used the words correctly, but it doesn't mean I was at the same stage of acquiring the language.Ross: Yeah, which is so interesting. This is such a great example, because it shows how making errors is evidence that you're developing.Anyway, that was the developmental kind. What's the other main reason that students make errors?Tracy: Maybe they directly translate from their first language to the language they study?Ross: It's not always a direct translation, but yeah, call it L1 transfer.Tracy: Transfer, yeah.Ross: A long time ago, people thought that all the errors came from that. Gradually, they came to realize that that's not the case and a lot of the errors that students make are the same regardless of their first language. Part of the transfer errors, they're actually harder to get rid of than the developmental errors.Should teachers correct students’ errors in ESL classes?Ross: Let's talk about the next one. Should we correct errors? What do you tell teachers on teacher training courses?Tracy: I think it really depends. Sometime, I tell them to ignore that.Ross: Wow, OK. When do you say to ignore errors?Tracy: Two main scenarios. Number one, if it's not really in a learning setting. For example, you haven't seen the students for a while and saw the students, have a chat, and then students really talkative and very motivated and probably make some mistakes and then have errors in their sentences. Really, to be honest, I don't think that's a great context for us to correct their errors.Their motivation was not to learn much, they want to communicate with you. It's probably going to demotivate the students. The second scenario is if the error is really not impeding the communication that much, you probably want to ignore it.Ross: Yeah, right. Actually, I'm going to play you a little Jeremy Harmer quote about what you were talking about there, this process of deciding if you should correct an error or not.[pre‑recorded audio starts]Jeremy Harmer: Every time a student makes a mistake in class, you have to make a judgment. That's actually not true, you have to make about four or five judgments. The first judgment you have to make is, "Was it wrong?" The second judgment is, "Actually, what was wrong?" because sometimes it's not that easy to work out what was wrong.The third judgment you have to make is, "Should I correct it or should I just let it go?" The fourth judgment you have to make is, "Should I correct it or should somebody else correct it?" Suddenly in that one moment when students just make a mistake, you have to work out what to do.[pre‑recorded audio ends]Tracy: There are four main things that we need to consider immediately when the student make mistake. They are who, when, what, and how.Ross: What was the error? Yeah, because this is sometimes difficult to tell. Is it a pronunciation mistake or is it lexical or is it grammatical or...?Tracy: Who's going to correct it?Ross: It could be the teacher. You could try and do peer correction, you could try and get the person to correct themselves, I suppose.Tracy: Yeah, or even small groups some times. When? Should you correct the error immediately, or you're waiting? We always say delayed.Ross: The last one was?Tracy: How. What kind of techniques you are going to use?Ross: Good, hang on to that thought, because we'll talk about that in the next segment. I actually wanted to play another quote. This one's from Stephen Krashen. This is what Stephen Krashen thinks about error correction.[pre‑recorded audio starts]Stephen Krashen: Output plus correction. You say something, you make a mistake, someone corrects it. You change your idea of what the rule is. The six‑year‑old ESL child comes into the class and says to the teacher, "I comes to school every day."Teacher says, "No, no, I come to school every day." The child is supposed to think, "Oh yeah, that s doesn't go on the first person singular, it goes on the third person singular."I think that's utter fantasy, but that's the idea.[pre‑recorded audio ends]Ross: It's quite interesting. He thinks error correction is a complete waste of time. Dave Willis, the task‑based learning guru, pardon, he's someone else, just thinks error correction doesn't work.Tracy: Oh really?Ross: Not everyone says that but I just wanted to give an example of both.Tracy: That's quite confusing though. Should we correct or...?Ross: There's other research that says that you should and it does make a difference in some situations, but not in other ones. I think there's the research, not quite conclusive.Tracy: Definite law students haven't read about this research.[laughter]Tracy: They have really high demand in classroom from teachers to correct their errors, because otherwise, you don't think they learn anything.Ross: For me, that's true. That at least some of the value in coming to a language class is you get your errors corrected, because input, you can buy a book or you can watch TV. There's lots of ways you could get input, maybe not always great for practice. A lot of people in a lot countries do have opportunities to practice English.Here in Beijing, you could just go to a Starbucks and try and find a foreigner or some people might have to speak English for work. The big advantage of going to a language class is that you get correction.Tracy: This makes me think of the students actually, in my class which I just taught this afternoon. Is about some phonological aspects and she told me at the end of the class, she said, "Oh no, I've finally realized I have no knowledge, no idea and no awareness of the features of connected speech, because I study English for so long, but I always have trouble to understand people in the listening."If I didn't have that correction in my lesson, I think she'd probably not be able to aware of the features for a long time.Ross: Yeah, absolutely. Good, you should send that to Stephen Krashen.How should teachers correct students’ ESL errors?Ross: Let's talk about some principles for error correction. We'll just pretend that we've ignored Stephen Krashen, we've decided that when students actually made an error. What do you think are some good ideas or best practices or advice on correcting errors?Tracy: I will say, the first one is, don't correct all the errors.Ross: Yeah, it'd be way too many, right?Tracy: Yeah.Ross: That'd be really annoying.Tracy: [laughs] Yeah. They won't have much time to really practice.Ross: I think as well, we know from Second Language Acquisition that not all of the errors that you correct are actually going to help the students.Tracy: Just try to prioritize errors. Of course, again, the fundamental stuff. Was your lesson aims are and then what kind of language or skills that you are trying to focus on in your class. Stick to those. That should be prioritized.Ross: Another thing to add is correct errors that effect more students instead of fewer students. I agree, if it's in your plan, then correct it, but I also think if it's a problem all the students are having or most of the students are having, then it's probably worth correcting.That's a bit about what to correct, how about some how to correct? Actually, can I play you another quote? I want to make a record for the number of quotes, someone talked, it's number three.Tracy: OK, go on.Ross: This is Herbert Puchta, I think his name is, talking about an error correction technique.Herbert Puchta: Imagine a class where lots of students have problems getting the famous third person "S" right. Take a piece of paper and write an "S" on it. Stick it somewhere on the wall. When a student makes that mistake, point to the paper, wait and smile. Most probably, the student who's just made the error will notice what you want them to do and correct themselves.Ross: I thought that was interesting, he also chose the third persons "S" as his example. I think what he's trying to say there is that's a really in‑obtrusive way of correcting a student. You can correct someone as their speaking, by pointing at something, but you don't have to interrupt them.Another one for how, this may be also related to who, is to try and get the students involved in their correction.Tracy: Yeah, I get it, but sorry, I just feel like sometimes...We talk about who and we always want to encourage students themselves to correct themselves. The techniques in how teacher try to raise their awareness of their error is repeating the error.Ross: It's interesting that you bring that up because...or the other one is called a recast when the students said something wrong and you repeat it back to them, but they say it right. There's research that shows that when you do that, a lot of students don't realize that you are correcting an error. They just think you're repeating something.Tracy: Exactly.Ross: What are some ways of raising students' awareness that they've made an error?Tracy: What I experimented today was WeChat. Of course, I think there is...Ross: For those of you know in China, WeChat's an instant messenger type thing.Tracy: I ask the students to join the group.Ross: A group chat.Tracy: Yeah, group chat. Yeah, before the lesson started. Almost at the end of the class, I listen to what they said, I posted on four or five sentences into the group chat so everybody can see it.Ross: What's in these sentences? Mistakes the students have made?Tracy: Mistakes and also correct sentences together. Of course, I changed some of the words they are using or the pronouns or places. Yeah, I just, talk to your partners and then tell each other which one you think correct and which one is not correct and the then you think the one is not correct and then you can type the correct ones and then send to the group.Ross: I think you also hit on another thing there, that's something to get students involved, but another thing is that, the anonymity. Not singling someone out.Tracy: Another thing, I always tell teachers. There should be a correction circle. You raise their awareness, usually we stop and they move on, but not, there should be another step to complete the circle which is, give students another chance to use the language correctly by themselves. For example, the pizza mistakes.Ross: I ated pizza yesterday.Tracy: I mmm pizza yesterday.Ross: I ate pizza yesterday.Tracy: What did you have for breakfast today?Ross: I ate cereal for breakfast today.Tracy: Really? Do you really? [laughs]Ross: No, I actually drank coffee today, but...[laughter]Ross: ...this is a different verb. I didn't think it would fit your point.Tracy: You know what I mean, just...Ross: Yeah, give the students a chance.Tracy: It's something can be really simple. Just ask a similar question and they can answer.Errors Wrap upTracy: We talk a lot about correcting errors, but the examples we were using really focus on the language itself, but don't forget about error correction also related to performance or behavior in class.Ross: What does that mean?Tracy: For example, teaching young learners and if the student wasn't well behaved, I think we also need to...Ross: Give feedback.Tracy: ...give feedback on that.Ross: Yeah, good point. Bye everyone, thanks for listening.Tracy: Bye.

Your story doesn’t define you; it refines you into who you are meant to be In this episode, I introduce you to Jeremiah Campbell—a person you will fall in love with while listening to him speak his truth. His innate gift and ability to help people, to guide them towards their goals, and his journey from addict to entrepreneur will not only inspire and move you, but instill faith and motivation. Listen to this episode to hear a powerful story, advice, and insight on how to sustain a growing relationship, and how to commit to your own growth and personal development to be the best you can be. Listen to this episode now A standard of normal We open this episode with Jeremiah describing his ‘normal’ childhood—his mother was addicted to cocaine, his father to marijuana, and eventually his siblings to drinking and various drugs. Being an Enneagram type 7, his need to please people and feel accepted, along with his environment and people around him, led to his own addictions and abuse of alcohol and heroin. Becoming who he wanted to be Jeremiah describes the moment the drugs stopped working, how he hated them, hated doing them, and how they were no longer enough to take away from the feelings he felt about himself—self-hatred. It was during rounds of rehab that he was introduced to the 12 Steps, and to the person who would show him a new way to direct his excess energy. In the end, it’s about your perception and the story you tell yourself We dig into his relationship with his wife, Mallory, their interactions while growing up together, and the pivotal moment when it turned from friends to romance. Despite family members trying to tear them apart, rehab, and trauma along the way, we talk about their everyday commitment to each other, to grow, to build the life they want together. He offers insight into how to truly dig deeper, to know yourself, your motivations, your fears, what drives you at the core and how to channel that into becoming the best version of yourself. Jeremiah CampbellJeremiah Campbell is a serial entrepreneur, having built and managed several seven-figure businesses, and is the founder and principal disrupter of Brickworks Property Restoration. As a leader and most awarded company in the masonry construction industry, Brickworks strives to make a personal impact on its team members and the thousands of customers that engage with the brand daily. As a recovered addict and alcoholic, Jeremiah’s personal mission is centered around inspiring others to rebuild and achieve at the level of their true potential. Your reviews matter If this episode fell on your heart, it is important to please take a minute to share with friends, family, and those who may need to hear this message. If you can, please take the time to review and rate the podcast on Apple Podcasts! The more ratings and reviews there are, the easier it is for others to discover the show.· Becoming bulletproof means to stand on the front line of your life – 4:00 Tracy· You can always have a great childhood if you choose to remember it differently. 4:30 - Jeremiah· As I grew up, I always had this pull on me to want to be somebody different 5:15 – Jeremiah· I always wanted to make people like me. 6:50 – Jeremiah· There was nothing crazy that happened, it was all an internal job to become the person I am – 7:30 Jeremiah· I hated the way it made me feel, but I kept doing it. 9 – Jeremiah· The 7 on the enneagram is the most likely to become addicted 10:20 Tracy· The drugs and alcohol stopped working 13:25 - Jeremiah· I couldn’t get high enough to take away the feelings from what I felt about myself. 13:35 – Jeremiah· The gift of desperation hit me 15:10 - Jeremiah· What a healthy Enneagram 7 does, is they don’t think inside any kind of box. 25:00 – Tracy· I’m obsessed with becoming the better version of myself. 29:35 – Jeremiah· My number one thing in my business, is my culture. 30:05 – Jeremiah· I’m not that unique, I just give a shit and I pay attention and I celebrate the small wins. 30:35 - Jeremiah· I never expected to be successful 43:25 – Jeremiah· The reason we are still together because she is amazing and allowed me to build the business up. – 44:55 – Jeremiah· She is the reason for my success 45:15

Guest Bios Show Transcript Guest Bios Show Transcript Christians are divided over whether marijuana should be legalized. Some say the drug is an essential pain medication and even an aid in worship! But others claim it's a dangerous, unregulated, gateway drug. This week on The Roys Report, Jonathan Merritt, who supports legalization, will be joining me to share how marijuana delivered him from chronic pain.  But challenging his position will be Dr. Richard Poupard, an outspoken critic of legalization. I really hope you'll join me for The Roys Report, this Saturday morning at 11 on AM 1160 Hope For Your Life, and at 7 p.m. Sunday evening on AM 560 The Answer. This Weeks Guests Dr Rich Poupard Dr Rich Poupard Earned his Doctor of Dental Surgery from Northwestern University Dental School.  He practices as a Board Certified Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon in Michigan.  He has special interest includes medical ethics and Christian Apologetics.  It is this interest that led him to study and complete his Master's degree in Christian Apologetics at Biola University.  He is published in the Christian Research Journal on topics such as ethics of cosmetic surgery, abortion, gaming, pornography and marijuana use.  He has been hosted on multiple podcasts including The Bible Answer Man and Hank Unplugged.  He is married and has five children.  He enjoys reading, golf and board games.  Jonathan Merritt Jonathan Merritt is an award-winning writer on religion, culture, and politics. He serves as a contributing writer for The Atlantic, a contributing editor for The Week, and is author of several critically-acclaimed books and has published more than 3500 articles in respected outlets such as The New York Times, USA Today, Buzzfeed, The Washington Post and Christianity Today. As a respected voice, he regularly contributes commentary to television, print, and radio news outlets and has been interviewed by ABC World News, NPR, CNN, PBS, MSNBC, Fox News, and CBS' “60 Minutes.” Jonathan holds a Master of Divinity from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and a Master of Theology from Emory University's Candler School of Theology. He is the recipient of numerous awards and accolades including the Wilbur Award for excellence in journalism, the Religion News Association's columnist of the year, and the Englewood Review of Books “Book of the Year” award. David E. Smith David E. Smith is a Christian husband and father to eight children. He is also an experienced Executive Director of two non-profit public policy organizations, including the Illinois Family Institute. David works to educate and activate Christians in Illinois to "boldly bring biblical perspectives to public policy" for the welfare of families in the turbulent culture of Illinois. David also serves as a GOP Township Chairman and is an ordained minister and elder in his local church. Show Transcript Note: This transcript has been slightly edited for continuity. Segment 1 JULIE ROYS:  What should Christians think of marijuana?  Welcome to The Roys Report, brought to you in part by Judson University. I am Julie Roys. And today, we're going to be debating a hot topic in both the culture and the church. Some people say marijuana is a miracle drug that can bring relief for chronic pain and ease depression. Yet, others say it's a dangerous drug, especially for young, developing minds. Plus, marijuana can be a gateway to harder drugs, and legalization can lead to the proliferation of social problems. In Illinois, where this show originates, we just legalized marijuana, but the law hasn't gone into effect yet. That happens in January. But marijuana—both recreational and medical—is legal now in 10 states and the District of Columbia. And support for it is growing. In 1988, only 24% of Americans supported legalization. But in 2018, 66% of Americans supported it. And Christians, who once vehemently opposed the drug, seem to be softening. In fact, there's a prominent Christian leader who now openly admits he uses weed three-to-four times a week. And he claims it enhances his worship experience. So how do you think Christians should think about this issue and should they support legalization? This week, Judson University student Carista Richie asked people that exact question and here's what they said: STUDENT 1:  “I don't, okay, I don't know much about it but I have, I know that it helps people with some medical conditions. So I think that it should be legal in that way, for that, but otherwise no.” STUDENT 2:    “I think that, as Christians, we are supposed to not smoke marijuana. But I think that the de-criminalizing of marijuana makes the justice system more equal and more fair for people of color.  And therefore, we should support it.” STUDENT 3:  “In order to worship God and have God be the number one priority and thought in your mind, you need to be in the right state of mind. And you aren't able to control that state of mind whenever you are under the influence of a drug that is going to make you think, or hallucinate or whatever that may be. And you are not going to be in the right state of mind to focus on God one hundred percent. STUDENT 4:  “I think the Bible is very clear about not taking or using anything that is going to kind of change your state of mind.  But I do think that the laws need to be set in place to kind of differentiate between what recreational use and what medical use is. I think that saves a lot of benefits from using marijuana medically. So yeah, that's my answer. STUDENT 5:  “No.” CARISTA RICHIE:   “Okay. How come?” STUDENT 5:  “Because it distorts your perspective of reality and you shouldn't run away from the reality God gave you. STUDENT 6:    “I don't think they should support it. I think it's a gray issue in Christianity. I don't think it's a wrong, like a right or a wrong but I don't think they should support it, but if they do, then I think it's OK. JULIE ROYS:  Well, what do you think? The number to call is 312-660-2594. And I know there's a wide variety of opinions on this issue, even in the faith community. So I encourage you to call in.   But joining me today, I have guests on both sides of this issue.  Supporting legalization is Jonathan Merritt, an award-winning author on religion, culture, and politics—and someone who grew up as the son of a prominent Southern Baptist preacher. But Jonathan, I'm going to guess—you're no longer a Southern Baptist. Am I right on that?  JONATHAN MERRITT:  Well, I, in order to be a Southern Baptist you have to attend the Southern Baptist church and since moving to New York City, I'm at a non-denominational church. So the answer is no. But no ill feelings toward the tradition of my heritage. JULIE ROYS:  Sure, but would you say you've moved? Like if there were a Southern Baptist Church, do you think you'd attend that or do you feel like you've moved a bit from sort of that conservative foundation? JONATHAN MERRITT:  I've moved somewhat but the real  reason, I think, for my shift is that I love kind of a quasi-Anglican or more of a liturgical expression of worship. And so that's one of the main reasons why I attend the church I do today. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah and I know that this issue of marijuana is something that has shifted as you've grown. And I'm going to get into that in a second. But I want to introduce my second guest, which is Dr. Richard Poupard, a board-certified oral surgeon and member of the surgical staff at MidMichigan Regional Medical Center. And Dr. Poupard is a critic of legalization. So Dr. Poupard, welcome!  Great to have you. DR. RICHARD POUPARD:  Oh thanks so much, Julie.  It's great to be here. And hi Jonathan.  JONATHAN MERRITT:  Hi, hello. JULIE ROYS:  So Jonathan, let's just start with you because you have an interesting journey on this issue. Again, brought up Southern Baptist, brought up basically thinking marijuana is something that you shouldn't ever consider or touch. But that's changed over the years. So tell us a little bit about your journey. JONATHAN MERRITT:  Yeah, it was a view that I held growing up, that it was just sort of a an unmitigated moral wrong. And I had no reason really to challenge that view. So I held that view for decades. And in 2015, I developed a chronic pain disorder that doctors have classified in different ways. Some have called it fibromyalgia but, regardless, the kind of a nagging pain condition that prohibited me from working full hours of the day. Really, I think, was one of the impetuses for creating a lot of anxiety and depression and even, at the end, a little bit of almost suicidal thoughts. And so a couple of years ago, I was in California, and a friend of mine had urged me to go and see a physician there. And I did, and was prescribed medical marijuana. And even though I was very afraid to try it, I was sort of at the end of my rope. I tried every kind of medication known to man—pain killers, nerve pills, you know, anti-seizure medications and nothing had even come close to working. And so I tried it and found that because of medical advances, I was able, without really having the experience of a high. You know people talk about, you know, tripping over like almost like you would be drunk. I didn't really have that but I had a massive pain reduction. And it just brought me to tears and I think induced a real re-thinking about the morality of this issue, at least in some cases, for me. JULIE ROYS:  And can I ask what form you took the marijuana in? JONATHAN MERRITT:  Yes, it was an edible form. So it was almost like a piece of candy. It wasn't like smoked. It was like a something that you just sort of chewed up and swallowed. And then kind of over time, released into the body.   JULIE ROYS:  Okay. And do you know what the percentage of the THC was in that drug?    JONATHAN MERRITT:  You know, I don't know. I remember when I was picking it up—you sort of, you go to the doctor and then the doctor sends you to kind of like a dispensary, like a pharmacy. And I don't remember the exact percentages but I remember that you could kind of choose. And it was a lower percentage of THC, a high percentage of CBD. So he was like, you know, I said I want to be able to funtion. I want, I don't want to really want to get high. I'm taking it for pain. I kind of explained it and then he was able to kind of select and recommend a product to me.       JULIE ROYS:  Okay. Dr. Poupard, I asked all those questions because I've talked to you about this issue before. And this was, I think, a couple years ago, maybe 2017. And at that point there wasn't a lot of great labeling of the drug. And most medical marijuana, it was my understanding at that point, from our discussion, a lot of it was just the joint that you would smoke.  And you would get high and you'd call that medical because you got a prescription for it. Has it changed in the past few years? DR. RICHARD POUPARD:   In some ways it has, you know.  Obviously, even when I first wrote my article in the Christian Research Journal even five years ago. The comps, the CBD oil was just coming out. With Charlotte, who found that CBD, dissolved in oil, was an effective treatment for her seizures. And since that time, that then actually the FDA has approved medications that are enriched in CBD. I mean, now when it comes to the products that are available, it's widespread everywhere. CBD, obviously, is seen—that the health claims and it's really gotten out everywhere. And it's kind of on fire in terms of those that are claiming that it's going to pretty much fix everything. But in terms of, you know, I do believe that most of the, even though there's many other options, I find that in my studies, that those that are taking compounds from marijuana, for medical reason for pain relief, you know, tend to use more edible type of solutions because they are long-lasting. And those that are actually taking for more recreational reasons, still tend to smoke it because you can get the desired dose. And control the desired dose better that way—get a better and bigger hit as opposed to taking the edible. JULIE ROYS:  Yes, sorry about that. We have to go to break.  But when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about the difference between the recreational and the medicinal use of this.  But also, I want to talk about a pastor who says smoking marijuana, or taking CBD and THC, it actually enhances his worship experience. What do you think about that?  Again, you're listening to The Roys Report. We'll be right back after a short break. Segment 2 JULIE ROYS:  Well, can marijuana enhance your worship experience? Welcome back to The Roys Report. I'm Julie Roys. And according to Pastor Craig Gross, that's exactly what marijuana does. And we're talking today about marijuana—how people of faith should view this drug. And many Christians, especially conservative Christians are against using the drug. But Craig Gross, the founder of a ministry in Pasadena, California, that helps people overcome porn addiction, is a marijuana enthusiast. Gross says that he uses cannabis 3 to 4 times a week, and he says it's also an aid in his worship. On his website ChristianCannabis.com, he writes that in 2017, he discovered cannabis-infused mints, which contained about five milligrams of THC. He said this “microdose” was perfect for him. And shortly after he started using it, he said he had an intense spiritual experience. This is what he writes and I quote:  “There, in the midst of a break from a convention, at the Cosmopolitan Hotel, the Lord met me in ways more powerful than I have ever known in my 42 years on this earth. My head stopped spinning and I heard His voice. I got clarity. I got direction. I got out of my head, and I let God into my heart in a lasting, visceral way.” Interestingly, Gross, just last month, resigned from his ministry for porn addicts that he launched 17 years ago. He actually passed that on to someone who had found help through that ministry. And now he is giving a new cannabis business his full-time attention.  What do you think of that? Is Gross a little bit whacked out—or is he on target and enlightening his fellow Christians? The number to call: 312-660-2594. And before I go to my guests, I do want to go to our phone lines cause Tracy's on the line right now. And Tracy, from what I understand, you're for legalization of pot, not just medicinally but also recreationally? Yes? TRACY:   You know, I am but I think that we're really talking about two separate issues here. The first is the morality and the spiritual responsibility that a Christian has—to be true, honest, honoring of their bodily temple and these things. Right? The criminalization or de-criminalization—I think it's a completely separate issue. The people that are going to smoke pot, it's clear that they're going to do it whether it's legal or not. And when I say smoke, let's say take. People are going to take marijuana. JULIE ROYS:  Okay, so you're saying legalizations, let's put that on the side, okay? The legalization. So what do you think about Christians using it? Are you for that or against that? TRACY:  I believe that marijuana is an intoxicant like many others. I believe that, unlike some others, it is more possible to use this intoxicant in a responsible way—the way one would use wine with dinner. JULIE ROYS:  Okay, so just a little bit. Maybe get, you know, a little buzz but not intoxicating. And what do think about the worship experience thing? Enhancing your worship experience with marijuana? TRACY:  You know, and I think that sounds great and it's a really good way to make someone feel not horrible about what they're doing. And I don't know the pastor's heart. I don't know anyone's heart. The Lord knows their heart, not me. But I think . . . JULIE ROYS:  But you're cool with it. TRACY:  Well, it's disingenuous to say that, you know, I'm using this because it enhances my spirituality. I didn't begin living my life as a conservative Christian. I came to that through the grace of God, okay. And there was a time when I used intoxicants more than I would care to admit. JULIE ROYS:  So you think it might be a little bit of a rationalization for wanting to use it period. TRACY:  Absolutely. JULIE ROYS:  Okay. All right. Tracy thanks, thanks. I want to go to our guests and give them a chance to weigh in. I appreciate your comments.   Again, joining me today, Jonathan Merritt, a Christian author and advocate of marijuana—and Dr. Richard Poupard, an oral surgeon and critic of using the drug. So Jonathan, I'll throw that to you. Your thoughts on Pastor Craig Gross, or I should say ex-Pastor, I guess, and his enhancing worship experience with the drug. JONATHAN MERRITT:  Well, I think it strikes me as a little strange, right off the bat. I have a lot of friends who practice Easter religions, who make use of these kinds of things—psychedelics, psychotropics for spiritual enhancement. It's not something that's normally a part of the Christian tradition. And I don't have any real experience with it but I can tell you one thing in my experience. I grew up journaling, you know, just sort of writing down my thoughts from my quiet time and journaling. But I will tell you when I had my pain condition, I couldn't journal because I was so consumed with thoughts about my physical state that I couldn't quite piece my thoughts together to journal in my spiritual journal. But I will tell you that when I was able to kind of clear that out, just a little bit, I was able to journal. And I guess maybe if that's what someone says is an enhancement I suppose that's one thing. It's very different, I think, than someone using to quote “reach an enlightment,” kind of drawing from non-Christian traditions. And I feel like when I read Craig's words there, it kind of confuses me as to what side of the line he's on, I guess, in this discussion. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah, and, you know, I know for me it kind of sets off some red flags because I remember reading, and this is going to date me, but Keith Green—his autobiography, not autobiography, his biography—that was written after he died but Keith Green was a Christian artist who really stood out, I think, in those early days of Christian contemporary music. Very straight-up artist. If you don't know him, you should check him out. He's like my all-time favorite. But Keith wrote, I remember, talked about how, before he came to Christ, he would use a lot of drugs. And it became a portal not just for, you know, first it was like these very happy spiritual experiences. Then it became much darker and he began to suspect that this was really a portal for Satan to reach him. So it seems like it can open us up. Dr. Poupard I'd like your thoughts on that. Open us up to whatever influence can come in which could be light or dark. Correct? DR. RICHARD POUPARD:  Well, I think so and I think that's a great concern for when we have now this increasing popularity of marijuana. By the way, mentioning Keith Green also dates me too, so I'm with you with that. One thing about this topic and it's really a good example. We're talking about there's a big difference between using any medication for a treatment of a pathology, treatment of an illness. And, you know, returning the goal in that, of course, is to returning our body to its normal state. For someone who has neurogenic pain, chronic pain that's refractory to other treatments—to have something that can bring you back to where you can now be and worship God correctly and function well, you know. That's something that we absolutely need to celebrate. At the same time, there's that next step in which we think that in taking this medication, we can actually increase our worship. This is nothing new. This has been going on for millennia.  In Eastern religions and the like, where people want to become close to the higher power by changing our brain chemistry. I think it's pretty clear that we should be very concerned about that. And Craig Gross himself, I mean, he started out basically, once again, taking the medication for chronic migraines, I believe. But now is an advocate for selling and selling it actually on his web site.  Vape pens that have praise and persevere and peace on it.  And I think the peace that we get from our faith does not, should not be coming from, you know, the THC found in a vape pen. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah and it does make you a little bit leery when he goes from doing ministry and now he's in a for-profit business, you know. What's behind all that, you know?  I don't know but it does, sort of make you think about the interest, the heart with all of that. But I want you to just comment on our caller who said, “Why can't marijuana be a little bit intoxicating, just like say drinking a wine with your dinner?” Can it be used in that way? DR. RICHARD POUPARD:  Well, I don't have personal  experience but the research shows that an intoxicating dose of marijuana usually happens at basically like four puffs of a joint. And very few advocates of marijuana, that use it recreationally, use less than that. So, you know, the whole point of smoking marijuana, especially recreationally, is to basically dose yourself to a certain point in which you feel then good. And it's known that when you go past that point, then other things like psychosis and paranoia can kick in. So in general, I don't know anybody who uses marijuana recreationally as a non-intoxicating manner. Now when you're using it for medical purposes, if you're, you can do micro-dosing and things like that but that will bring us to the fact that whether or not research has shown that these things are, actually on a populaton level, effective for treating the things that are claimed to be treated. JULIE ROYS:  Well again, that's Dr. Richard Poupard, an oral surgeon and critic of legalizing marijuana. Also joining me today, Jonathan Merritt, an author and proponent of legalizing marijuana. Joining me in just a little bit will be someone who can talk about legalization laws, state legalization laws and if you don't want marijuana coming to your town, what you can do. Stay tuned. The Roys Report will be right back after a short break. 3rd Segment JULIE ROYS: Well, welcome back to The Roys Report, brought to you in part by Judson University.  I'm Julie Roys.  And today, we're discussing what Christians should think about marijuana. Is it okay for Christians to use marijuana? Does it matter whether they're using it medically as opposed to recreationally? And what about legalizing the drug? Should Christians support legalization or not? I'd love to hear your thoughts. The number to call is 312-660-2594. Also, joining me today to debate this issue are Jonathan Merritt, who's an advocate of marijuana—and Dr. Richard Poupard, who's a critic of the drug. And we'll return to that debate in just a minute. But I wanted to take a minute to discuss advocacy, especially in Illinois since this show does originate here in Chicago. And a lot of our listeners are in Illinois. Although I want to mention this week, kind of excited about this, we're adding a new station—WBIS Awesome Radio in Greenville, North Carolina. So welcome to all of you listening in North Carolina. We're so excited to have you as part of The Roys Report listening audience. And I should mention that in North Carolina, speaking of marijuana, marijuana is not legal, although lawmakers there have introduced a medical marijuana bill. And we'll see what happens with that bill when the state legislature re-convenes next year. But in Illinois, the question of legalization is somewhat of a moot point in Illinois. That's because earlier this year, the state legislature legalized marijuana. But now there's initiatives to ban dispensaries in certain towns. This is similar to what's been done across Michigan. There, the drug is legal, but more than 500 cities have opted out of the Marijuana Act and are banning marijuana businesses in their towns. So, joining me now is David Smith, executive director of the Illinois Family Institute. He's someone who has been very involved in this issue. And I believe he joins me now. Hi Dave? Can you hear me? Okay, looks like we weren't able to get him on the line. We will get him on the line before the end of this show. And I want him to comment on some of these issues of opting out and what your cities can do. But let me take it back to our guests Jonathan Merritt and Richard Poupard. Jonathan, before the break we were talking a little bit about medical vs. recreational use. How do you feel—I know you want it to be legal, you want Christians to be engaging on this issue and talking about this issue—but what do you feel about the recreational use? Do you think that there's a legitimate place for Christians to use marijuana recreationally? Wait, we lost Jonathan. Okay, well Dr. Poupard can you hear me?  DR. RICHARD POUPARD: Yes I can.  JULIE ROYS: Okay, all right so I guess we've lost a couple of our guests there. My apologies to those of you listening a few technical issues today but do you think I think it’s pretty clear you don’t think there’s any any place for using this drug recreationally. Correct? DR. RICHARD POUPARD: Well no, I think especially from a Christian standpoint, I don’t see an argument that can be laid across that says it is a good thing to use this drug as a life enhancer. And it’s interesting that the playbook that the pro-marijuana advocates have used extremely effectively in terms of beginning by talking about how it can be effective to treat illnesses and we should be able to have access to it for compassion. But frankly, I agree with in terms of treating patients with (inaudible) disorders. And then quickly turning to say that it should be completely legal for everybody to use because it's safe  and it’s a better intoxicant, say, than the ones that we currently accept. I think that’s been very effective. And that idea has been kind of pushed across our culture. And I think we should push back on that. I don’t imagine a better culture with more of us engaging with marijuana. And in fact, a lot of the proposed advantages of marijuana of over say alcohol have been shown really to not be effective. We thought that, for a while, that increased use of marijuana might decrease the opioid problem that we have. And some early data showed that might be the case. Well the latest stuff that came out, the latest studies show that it has a negative effect. The more people who smoke pot actually end up on opioids further. In things for instance with intimate partner violence. We used to think that well, it would be better if husbands, or partners, if they were high, maybe they’d be more relaxed and there would be less likely to abuse their families. Well, now it turns out that  even in terms of when we account for all the other variables, that those who smoke pot actually have a greater incidence of abuse even with controlling alcohol use and everything else. So I think that both in a spiritual aspect, which is what I’m concerned about as a Christian, but also the cultural effects I think are going to be great and, right now, unknown. JULIE ROYS: I think we have Jonathan back on the line. Yes? JONATHAN MERRITT:  We do! JULIE ROYS: Yay! Okay. Sorry about that friend. Didn't mean to drop you. But, so we've been talking a little bit about using marijuana recreationally as a post to medicinally. I wanted to know your input. Do you think it should be legalized recreationally as well as medicinally? JONATHAN MERRITT: I do. I do, and not because I think that recreational use is healthy or good or even advisable for a Christian. But simply because of all of the difficulties that have come with making it illegal. You know, I think I would make the same argument for other dangerous drugs—tobacco as well as alcohol, both very, very dangerous drugs—that there’s a difference between making it illegal and being able to sort of enforce those laws—and to do so in a just way—and also then encouraging people to use something responsibly that can be used irresponsibly. JULIE ROYS: I can understand that. And so Dr. Poupard, what do you think about that? Is this too hard to regulate at this point that we should just say, “yeah it should be legal, even recreationally even if we wouldn’t do it or advocate doing it?” DR. RICHARD POUPARD: I actually agree with Jonathan. I think it’s wise for us to look at the laws that we presently have. And in instances in which they have been unjust, we should look at changing them. But I don’t think that necessarily leads to a full legalization. Just as an aside, decriminalization of marijuana might be a good step. Instead of putting those with small amounts of possession in jail, small fines and the like, I think would be a next step that maybe we may consider taking. I think that’s different then making it legal. Now there’s an assumption, I think, in Jonathan’s comment that if we do make it legal, then people would be actually, you know, more apt to use it responsibly. And I would disagree with that. I think that even when we look at states that have passed medical marijuana laws, for instance, most—to be honest with you—most of the time that those with medical marijuana cards are not using it for legitimate medical purposes. JULIE ROYS: Okay, Dr. Poupard. We need to go to a break. When we come back, let's talk a little bit more about that. I also want to get to how this affects the developing brain of adolescents. And we do have David Smith on the line from the Illinois Family Institute. We will be right back after a short break. Again, you're listening to The Roys Report with Julie Roys. We'll be back.  Segment 4 JULIE ROYS:  Well, what should Christians think about marijuana? Is it a medically important drug and relatively harmless to those who consume it? Or is it a dangerous drug, especially for younger, developing minds—and maybe a gateway drug? Welcome back to The Roys Report. I'm Julie Roys. And today we are talking about this controversial issue with guests on both sides.  And I want to let you know that if you missed any part of today's broadcast, or just want to listen again or share it with friends, it will be available at my website today about an hour after the broadcast. So just go to Julie Roys, spelled ROYS, dot com and click on the podcast tab. That's Julie Roys dot com. I also want to let you know that next week, we're going to be discussing an extremely important topic—how churches should minister to abused women. Just this week, I published the first of two investigative articles about women who were in abusive marriages and sought help through the Soul Care ministry at Harvest Bible Chapel during the years 2012-2016. The women say the ministry failed to protect them, and instead protected their abusive husbands. If you'd like to read that article, it's available at my website, Julie Roys dot com. But on The Roys Report next week, Judi Noble, an experienced counselor of abused women, will be joining me. And she has tons of insight about how churches should respond to this issue. And clearly, churches need a little bit of help in this area. So I hope you'll make a point to join me next week on The Roys Report. But returning to the topic of marijuana again. Joining me Jonathan Merritt, an author and proponent of legalizing marijuana and Dr. Richard Poupard, an oral surgeon and critic of legalization. And also right now Dave Smith joins me, the Executive Director of the Illinois Family Institute and a good friend. So, David, so glad you could make it. DAVID SMITH:  Hello, Julie. Glad to be on The Roys Report. JULIE ROYS: Well, I am glad to have you. And I know a lot of people listening especially here in Illinois, again, where this show originates but I know there's people listening online in communities all across the country. But in those, in states where marijuana has been legalized, is this a moot point? I mean, is it water under the bridge? There's nothing that we can do? Or is there something people can do in communities if they're concerned about legalization? DAVID SMITH:  Well, here in Illinois, we have the blessing of having an option, in the law that they just passed, to be able to opt out our local communities, and even our counties, out of retail sales. So, in other words, use and possession of marijuana will still be legal, however, there will be no pot stores or retail sales of it in the community, if they zone it out. And we want to encourage listeners to consider this seriously and reach out to their local mayors, aldermen, their city council, their county board members and encourage them. You know, if you don't want to become a destination point, you know, for drug use and for marijuana purchases, you can opt out and you can encourage your lawmakers, your local officials, to pass an ordinance to ban it. Also, for your listeners in Chicago, while the city of Chicago probably won't consider such a ban, local precincts, each precinct within the city of Chicago, can ban the retail sales, just like they can with alcohol. They can make the precinct dry. While in this case, if you lived especially in a precinct that's near a business district, you may want to consider passing the local ban in the precinct to safeguard the community. JULIE ROYS:  And Dave, why would somebody want to do that? Why would a community want to do that? When you say a “destination point” what's your concern with it? DAVID SMITH:  Well, that's because especially when there's no cap on the THC levels. You know, the addiction levels, that can come with high THC levels, will bring in a lot of addicts. And we've seen in Colorado even. For example in Pueblo, Colorado, the homeless community has exploded in Pueblo, Colorado—a lot of people coming just for the pot. And being able to use the pot in that community. And so, we're also very concerned about people driving in and out of the community—your neighborhood, going to get their next, you know, stash of marijuana. You know, what state of mind are they in currently? We know that THC stays in your blood a lot longer than alcohol does and it could affect your fine motor skills. So who's on our roads? Who's driving through our communities? And in what state of mind and intoxication are they in?  JULIE ROYS:  Well, Dave thank you for informing us on those things. I appreciate it and I appreciate your work on the part of Illinois citizens. So appreciate you joining me. DAVID SMITH:  Thank you, Julie. JULIE ROYS:  Let me throw this to Jonathan Merritt. You're in, I know, in favor of legalizing. Do you share some of those concerns, about your community being a destination point for people that might come in, that might have THC in their blood? And the homeless, you know, some of these claims it's increased because of legalization. What do you say? JONATHAN MERRITT:  Yeah, I mean, I'd have to see some of the data on it. One of the difficult things, I think, for all of us who are trying to figure out what we think and what we believe about this. And I know this, just from being a journalist, is there's so much conflicting data out there. And so, you know, you can find a study that shows there's a rise in this or there's lower levels of this. I think one legitimate concern would be how safe the roads would be. And that's something that I just can't get away from even as a person who, you know, if you look at the whole issue, supports legalizing it. It seems to be quite a risk to road safety. Because it's difficult to test for, it's difficult to decide if there was really alcohol mixed with marijuana. It's difficult to know what levels of marijuana you've consumed. So is it safe to drive or not? And I don't think there's anyone in America that wants more unsafe drivers on the roadways, where their spouses and their children and their friends are also trafficking. So I think that's a very strong argument and that's one that I think we need to talk about. JULIE ROYS:  And also ER visits tend to go up in communities where they've legalized marijuana. Is that correct, Dr. Poupard? DR. RICHARD POUPARD:  Yeah, the latest study in Colorado, the ER visits have increased three times since this complete legalization has occurred, mostly for both hyperemesis as well as marijuana related psychosis. And anecdotally, a lot of my emergency room colleagues I've spoken to, even since we've legalized in Michigan, even though we don't have dispensaries yet, they've seen a significant uptick in problems in the emergency room. And my main concern is, also, there's no question that as we have increased access to marijuana, even though, obviously, it's going to be illegal for those under 21 to have, that our kids are going to have increased access to it. And not only that, at a much higher potency than we've had in the past. As a father of teenagers, that certainly is a concern, especially with the data known. We know it affects a developing brain in ways that can sometimes be irreversible—that between impairing function, processing speed, memory, and attention span, and concentration. And you can actually measure these changes with an IQ test. I hope Jonathan agrees with me in his article that, you know, we have to do try to do what we can to keep this away from kids. Most medical groups say, actually, under 25 but certainly those that have a developing brain.  JULIE ROYS:   Yeah, and that is such a big issue. But I know I talked to my daughter, for example, you know she's a teenager, about this issue, how she feels. And a lot of these talking points, that you hear from the marijuana lobby, they get right into the main stream, there's no doubt, and there isn't necessarily a lot of good education on these sorts of things. And a book that I read, you know, what is it, Telling the Truth About Marijuana to Our Kids, talked about even the link between violence and marijuana use, especially when it's introduced when these minds are developing. And isn't there a propensity, even if you've used marijuana, not a lot, it's in a small group of the population, but you never know who it is, where paranoia and some violent tendencies may come out if you're using marijuana? Is that correct, doctor? DR. RICHARD POUPARD:  Well, there's no question that marijuana has a positive correlation with psychosis, and psychosis has a positive correlation with violence. So that being said, as the book stated, that there is definitely, most likely a correlation between marijuana use and violence. At the same, you know, one of the concerns—the truth of the matter is that the majority of people who smoke marijuana and have in the past, smoked it when they're young and they kind of grow out of it. And that makes it seem like it's not dangerous. You don't have a lot, like a tremendous number of people, who are, you know, show addictive tendencies. But as we look at any drug, any medication, we can't just look at the average person. We have to look at what effect it has on even the rarer individuals.  JULIE ROYS:  Let me throw that to Jonathan because Jonathan you said you have friends, you know, that you were saying, that are into Easter religions, use some psychotropic drugs. But marijuana use—I'm guessing you have friends that have used marijuana and used it for awhile. I mean, what's your impression about did they start when they were young? Was it a gateway drug necessarily to harder drugs? What's your experience? JONATHAN MERRITT:  You know, I don't have any friends, now this could be more a statement, by the way, in my friend group than it is, you know, like a scientific sample size, but I don't have any friends who started out using marijuana and then transitioned to cocaine or heroin or something hard. But, you know, I live in a fairly affluent neighborhood in New York City where people are working and it's different. I would imagine it would be different in different communities. There's different levels of availability of certain things and so I don't know that that would be truly reflective. I do think that one thing that we need to talk about is when we talk about marijuana use, you almost have to explain which type of marijuana use you're talking about. Because I'm betting you have lots of people listening to this, who are Christians, who would say they don't want to legalized this.  They don't want this being used for recreational use but if you talked about my situation—a very serious Christian, who is trying his best to follow Jesus every day of his life, who came down with a disorder that he didn't ask for, who tried every legal medical remedy out there and found no help. Who really thought he was at the end of his rope. Who found some help using medical marijuana that did not make him high or incapacitated. I think there are a lot of people who'd be so sympathetic about that and would say I don't know that I can say that's a bad thing based on what it means for me to follow Jesus. And so it's a little different sometimes now we're having to figure out what we're really talking about when we are talking about marijuana usage.  JULIE ROYS:  Yeah, I know, personally, I don't have a problem with medical marijuana provided that it's truly medicinal. In other words, it's prescribed by a doctor for a legitimate medical condition and the amount of THC in each dose is clearly labeled. And there's controls in place to assure the consumer that what's stated on the label is accurate. I think that's another issue. It seems like in some of these states, there's not really good controls over these things. But I think if somebody has that medical marijuana, I think that's okay but I think what isn't okay and this is where I think the Bible is really clear. It's against intoxication of any kind. Ephesians 5 says, “Do not get drunk on wine . . . but instead be filled with the Spirit.”  Proverbs 20, verse 1 says, “Wine is a mocker and strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.” So I think that's pretty clear. So Dr. Poupard thank you so much for joining me. Jonathan thank you so much. I appreciate the discussion. And friends let's continue this discussion as we're in our churches. I think it's important that we talk about these kind of issues. So, I Peter 5 encourages us, “Let us be sober-minded and watchful.” God has important work for us to do. And the last thing we need as believers is another distraction. Thanks so much for listening today. Hope you have a great weekend and God bless.  Read more

This week I interviewed Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, a clinical psychologist and couples therapist based in Ottawa. We tackle everything from: How to get your partner to take your blog seriously What happiness in a relationship should look like What are the biggest planners in marriage Want to connect with Tracy? You can find her here: Website: www.drtracyd.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/dr.tracyd Facebook: www.facebook.com/drtracydalgleish What to listen to the episode? You can listen here: iTunes Podcast Google Podcast Spotify Grab the show notes here: www.mombreak.ca/episode6

In Gypsy Blanchard’s world, nothing is as it seems. For years, people saw her as a sickly girl plagued by medical issues. She was wheelchair bound. She suffered from mental delays. She had trouble breathing. Her life was marked by constant doctor visits and too-frequent surgeries. All the while, her doting mother Dee Dee was by her side. Then one day, someone updated the status on Dee Dee and Gypsy’s shared Facebook account. They wrote, “that bitch is dead.” Friends and neighbors were in for the surprise of their lives. Then Brandi tells us about four murders at a Chinese hostel. When police arrived at the crime scene in 1995, they had little to go on. The murders were as random as they were brutal. The few leads police developed were vague at best. The case went cold for nearly 20 years. Years later, with the help of DNA testing, investigators took another look at the crime scene. Their discovery led them to a surprising suspect. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The HBO documentary, “Mommy Dead and Dearest” “Gypsy Blanchard’s ex-boyfriend upset with his attorney as murder trial approaches,” Springfield News-Leader “Judge sets trial date for next year in Nicholas Godejohn case,” Springfield News-Leader “Charged with murder, Godejohn give his side of the story,” Ozarks First In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Anhui Author Detained for 1995 Quadruple Murder” by Fan Yiying, sixthtone.com “Farmer-writer-killer sentenced to death” by Ma Zhenhuan, China Daily “Killer author who murdered four people 23 years ago then wrote acclaimed novels ‘inspired by the case’ is sentenced to death in China” by Tracy You, Daily Mail “Crime writer arrested for four murders committed 22 years ago” The Punch “Chinese author of unsolved-murder novel arrested over unsolved murders” by Sarah Zheng, South China Morning Post  

Cognitive biases screw up our thinking. They make us make bad decisions, come to wrong wrong conclusions and for the most part we're completely unaware of them.Ross: Hi everyone.Tracy: Today we've got our special guest, Simon Galloway.Simon: Hello everyone.Tracy: Simon, do you want to...Both: ...introduce yourself?Simon: I'm mostly working with Trinity Diploma in TESOL, and Certificate in TESOL at the moment.Ross: You've done a bunch of other stuff before that, right? You were teaching in Japan, in China?Simon: Yes. I taught in Japan. I taught in China for several years. I was a director of studies and production...Ross: Regional manager as well?Simon: Regional manager for a while, yes.Ross: I remember years ago, Simon, watching you do a workshop for managers about how to do performance reviews. One of the things you spoke about was cognitive biases, right?Simon: Yes. That was focused on performance management, and all the things that managers tend to overlook when they're gauging the performance of their teachers. They might think they're giving a completely objective viewpoint, but actually these cognitive biases affect the way that they think.Ross: They don't just screw up managers thinking, they screw up everybody's.Simon: They screwed up everybody's thinking, yes.Ross: Screws up yours so much you brought a book about cognitive bias for your train journey on the way to Beijing.Simon: I did. It was quite good. It's "The Art of Thinking Clearly," by Rolf Dobelli. It's an international best‑seller.[laughter]Simon: I guess many of the people listening have also read this.[laughter]Ross: For those people that haven't heard of cognitive biases before, or don't have Rolf Dobelli's book, what's a cognitive bias?Simon: This is something that affects the way that we think and prevents us from thinking clearly, but we're probably not aware of it. As soon as we became aware of it, we gain a power over, or a power to stop it. It's usually something that we're not so aware of.Ross: Awesome. I guess over the next, whatever it is, 13 and a half minutes, we're going to try and give everyone a bit more power over their own thinking by talking about three things. First of all, cognitive biases for teachers.Tracy: Cognitive biases for trainers.Simon: And cognitive biases for managers.[background music]COGNITIVE BIASES FOR TEACHERSRoss: In terms of why cognitive biases are really incredibly important, here's a little quote from one of my favorite podcasts, which is Joe Rogan. He is interviewing, on this, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and they're talking about cognitive biases.Neil deGrasse Tyson: There should be a course called "Cognitive Bias 101". Forget college. Every high school should have a course "Cognitive Bias." The entire course should be about all the ways we fool ourselves, if we are going to emerge as adults no longer susceptible to charlatans, going forward.Joe: Yeah. We're thinking about just giving people facts instead of teaching them how to manage your mind.Neil: Yeah. Your head is your vessel, into which you pour information. Nowhere, and at no time, are we trained how to turn a fact into knowledge, knowledge into wisdom, and wisdom into insight.Ross: An example of a cognitive bias, confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when we have our assumptions about something.Simon: Sure. Yeah.Ross: We ignore evidence to the contrary, and only listen to evidence that supports what we already think, right?Simon: Yeah. I see this a lot with teachers reflecting on their lessons. You ask them at the end, "How do you feel about your lesson?" They'll say, "Yeah, I feel really good about it. I saw this and this and this."As an observer, I'm like, "I didn't see any of that." Then I try to second‑guess myself, then. I'm like, "Maybe I missed something," but I think, really, a lot of this is that the teacher knows what they're looking for.Ross: And ignores what students didn't say.Simon: Yeah, ignores what it didn't say, exactly. That's the key about confirmation bias, is that they only look for evidence that confirms their viewpoint. They don't look for any of the conflict in evidence.Tracy: You know, they call hot or cold cognition or something? I think the hot one is definitely influenced by the people's emotion and motivation, and the cold one doesn't have much emotion involved in it.Ross: I wonder if this then affects you also in that same situation that Simon just mentioned, where just after a lesson it's more like hot cognition, so you still feel emotionally attached to the lesson, but maybe days or weeks afterward you feel less like that.Simon: Somebody's TP journal should be more objective, right?Tracy: Yeah, yeah.Ross: You'd think so, right?Simon: You'd hope, wouldn't you?Ross: After you'd had time to...Another one I'd read about before, I think it's called fundamental attribution error, or fundamental attribution bias.Simon: Attribution error, yes.Ross: This is where, if you make a mistake, you do something bad, you say it's because of the situation. But if you see other people doing the same thing, you put it down to their personality.The classic example is, you're driving down the road and you're speeding because you're late for work and you go, "I'm only speeding because I'm late for work." Then you see someone else speeding past you the next day and you think, "Oh, that person is such a reckless driver," and you ignore the fact that maybe the reason that they're speeding is because they might also be late for work.I thought this was applicable for teachers, because maybe you teach a class and it goes very well and you think, "Oh, I taught such an awesome class. That was fantastic. I'm such a legend."Then you have the opposite experience doing a class and it was just utterly awful. You go, "Why? Well, the students weren't motivated, the students weren't interested in the topic, the students were at the wrong level." You make all these excuses about why it didn't go well, based on other people rather than based on yourself.Simon: Yeah. You've got to look at it more objectively. You've got to realize that the environment has a much bigger effect than you might immediately think, right?Ross: Yeah.Tracy: How can people realize that they are experiencing the cognitive bias? How can they prevent to have the bias?Ross: I think a part of it is just knowing that they exist, right?Simon: Yeah, I think so. Just knowing that these are ways that we think is a big first step to fixing them.[background music]COGNATIVE BIASES FOR TRAINERSRoss: Should we also talk about the trainers? What are some of the biases that you think we can fall prey to?Simon: I was thinking here about trainers observing lessons. I thought of a few things here. The first one is regression to the mean and anchoring. Two different biases here, if we're actually formally assessing candidates or teachers.With regression to the mean, it's this sense that, you can watch a teacher. Maybe they did a really bad lesson. You think, "I'm going to give a load of advice and all these tips." Then in the next lesson, they do much better. You think, "Well, I'm an amazing trainer."[laughter]Simon: "I've just changed their whole outlook on teaching. Really successful." Sometimes a teacher might do a really good lesson. You tell them, "That was amazing. That was really awesome."Then the next lesson, they do much worse. You think, "Huh, praising obviously didn't help this candidate. Obviously, if I give too much praise, the candidate gets complacent and they do worse." But in reality, perhaps in both of these cases, they're just regressing to the mean.Ross: They're just going back towards the norm.Simon: They're just going back towards the norm, right? Because there's a kind of a standard‑ish lesson, which might be just a pass, or that kind of thing. If the candidates are not amazingly proficient, or else not amazingly bad, they're going to tend to regress there, regardless of the trainer's feedback.Then of course, based on a fundamental attribution bias, we tend to think, "Oh, we're the trainer. We're changing their lives. We are the big changing point."Ross: Right. Yeah. "I have this huge influence over this teacher."Simon: "I can have a massive influence, a massive impact on these teachers," when in reality there's so many other factors affecting the quality of the lesson.Ross: Almost sounds like the over‑confidence bias, as well. Like my five minutes of feedback has completely affected this person for the next week.Simon: Changed their lives, yeah.Ross: Then anchoring is where, for example, you have an expectation of where the limits are on something, and you don't want to go move too far beyond that, right?Simon: Yeah. Sometimes in my experience, I've had cases where the trainer before me has observed a teacher and told me, "This teacher is amazing. See what you think about them." Or "Oh my goodness, that teacher was awful. See what you think about them."Then when I go in to watch them, got that in my mind. I'm thinking "OK. This teacher, I don't think they're that good, but yeah, that was quite good," so I give them quite a high mark. I give them a higher mark than I would have otherwise. Or I think, "That teacher wasn't great. Yeah, OK, the last trainer was right," and I give them a lower mark. But actually...Ross: Are you really looking at it objectively?Simon: Am I really looking at it objectively, right. If I hadn't had that piece of information from the other trainer, I may have given them a different mark, regardless.Ross: I'd read about this with Donald Trump speaking about, for example, immigrants to America and saying, "We're going to deport all illegal immigrants," and that's the sort of anchor for the conversation. The one extreme end.Simon: Yeah. Pushing it to the very extreme, yeah.Ross: Yeah. You're then framing the conversation as, "That's how far I'm willing to go." Then things move back from there.Simon: Yes, exactly. In that way, Trump changed the whole narrative of how things were talked about in America.Ross: Yeah.Simon: Marine Le Pen did the same in France. With Trump, somehow, he actually managed to get into power, but say you were Marine Le Pen in France. Even though she didn't get into power, she changed the narrative in France towards a more right wing bias, through anchoring.Tracy: I think there's something also related to the outcome bias. Another example, people probably got A for their TP lesson and they thought, "Everything I did for this lesson worked perfectly," and they kept using the same thing for the next TPs. But actually it didn't work very well for another group of learners.They didn't really realize or identify what worked and what didn't work, and just go in depth and reflect on what exactly students reacted, to the materials and the teacher's behavior. They just looked at the outcome because "I got an A."Ross: There was another interesting example about cognitive bias in a book called "Black Box Thinking" that I read about, which is prisoners going up for parole. The main thing which decided whether they got parole or not was whether it was the morning or the afternoon.Simon: Yeah, right.Ross: If it was after the judges had just eaten lunch, there was a high chance that prisoners will be allowed parole, and if it was in the morning when they didn't, then they wouldn't.Simon: Yes.Ross: This relates to trainers because...Simon: Yes, yes, absolutely. This is how we first got onto talking about the subject.Ross: Yeah.Simon: I did quite a lot of analysis on trainer observations on a teacher‑training course. After doing quite a thorough analysis, it was quite clear that the trainers gave much better marks in the morning than they did in the afternoon.It seems that the trainers were not taking a lot of time to eat lunch. They were often missing lunch, or they were just having a coffee for lunch, or this kind of thing. The result was that the afternoon lessons were 5 or 10 percent lower marks than the morning sessions.Ross: Yeah.Simon: To the point where significantly more afternoon sessions were actually failing than the morning sessions.Ross: What I think is fascinating about this is obviously taking a class and passing or failing it in a teacher‑training course is much lower stakes than getting released from prison.In those examples from capital punishment or from parole, no one was aware that those things were going on until someone actually collected the data. I suppose the takeaway here is, looking at the plain numbers and seeing what story numbers can tell us, as trainers.[background music]COGNATIVE BIASES FOR MANAGERSRoss: I remember years ago having a new teacher who I was training. I think they came in late, and they were dressed too casually. They didn't impress me in training.When I was talking to my boss about it, saying,"Should I pass on this feedback to this person's manager?" he said, "Beware of the self‑fulfilling prophecy," which is, you pass that information on and that the new manager hears that this teacher has turned up late and they wore the wrong clothes.They then start to look out for all those attributes in that person, and it very quickly turns into that person ends up getting fired, but maybe they didn't actually have to.Simon: There was a very interesting study done on this. They took a class of primary school students. They just took five students at complete random and said to the teacher, "Look, these students have been identified as very high potential." They took another five at random and said, "These five, you're going to have some problems with these students. Just find a way to deal with them."They came back a year later they saw the students that they had chosen at random as high performers actually had much higher results.Ross: I thought the take away from that was...Simon: Belief in those children can really make the big difference.Ross: Presumably, having higher expectations of the students is the key there. Tell us more about the performance management, and some of those biases for managers. How do those operate?Simon: If you're rating teacher's performance, as a manager, you can be prone to a lot of different biases. I was doing this kind of performance appraisals for teachers for a long time, and I realized that I was quite prone to a lot of these biases.[laughter]Simon: A lot of new managers, and even experienced managers, will make the same mistakes. As I've said before, when you realize that you're doing it, that's the first step towards changing it.On a rating of one to three for a lot of areas, you might just think, "Well, all right. They're not too terrible and they're not amazing at this, so I'll just give them a two." And you just give them twos.Ross: Two out of three is?Simon: There's a one, a two, and a three. One is below expectations, two, meets expectations, and three, exceeds expectations. Then, what the teacher gets is just a whole lot of twos.I've seen teachers also evaluate themselves this way. It's like, "Can you self‑evaluate?" I had a teacher before. I gave them some time to fill out their self evaluation. They took about 30 or 40 minutes all together. Finally, when they gave it to me, it was a line of twos, the whole way down.[laughter]Simon: There's that one. Then there's the other ones, where you can look at a halo bias, where you've got a teacher that you think, "This is my star teacher in my team. They're great," so you just give them a three for everything.I had a center director before who did this. Every single teacher that she liked in the school, she would just give them all threes. Then there was a teacher that she didn't like, gave them all ones. It's like the opposite of that, saying that if somebody is good, then everything is good.[background music]Ross: We talked a lot there about things that can go wrong. What could people do to get around those problems, to be less cognitively biased?Simon: As I've said before, I think just by knowing what will happen, you can start to stop it. With all learning, you can start by noticing and then turn it into action. If you know what these biases are, you notice yourself doing them, kind of stop yourself.Tracy: Thanks for listening everybody. Thanks, Simon, for coming to our podcast today.Simon: My pleasure.Tracy: Bye.Ross: Bye everyone.Simon: Bye‑bye.[background music]Tracy: For more podcasts, videos, and blogs, visit our website...Both: www.tefltraininginstitute.com.Ross: If you've got a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss, leave us a comment.Tracy: And if you want to keep up to date with our latest content, add us on WeChat at tefltraininginstitute.Ross: If you enjoy our podcast, please rate us on iTunes.

Tracy Lee: @ladyleet | ladyleet.com Ben Lesh: @benlesh | medium.com/@benlesh Show Notes: 00:50 - What is This Dot? 03:26 - The RxJS 5.5.4 Release and Characterizing RxJS 05:14 - Observable 07:06 - Operators 09:52 - Learning RxJS 11:10 - Making RxJS Functional Programming Friendly 12:52 - Lettable Operators 15:14 - Pipeline Operators 21:33 - The Concept of Mappable 23:58 - Struggles While Learning RxJS 33:09 - Documentation 36:52 - Surprising Uses of Observables 40:27 - Weird Uses of RxJS 45:25 - Announcements: WHATWG to Include Observables and RxJS 6 Resources: this.media RxJS RX Workshop Ben Lesh: Hot vs Cold Observables learnrxjs.io RxMarbles Jewelbots Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 91. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at The Frontside and your podcast host-in-training. Joining me today on the podcast is Elrick Ryan. Hello, Elrick. ELRICK: Hey, what's up? CHARLES: Not much. How are you doing? ELRICK: I'm great. Very excited to have these two folks on the podcast today. I feel like I know them… CHARLES: [Laughs] ELRICK: Very well, from Twitter. CHARLES: I feel like I know them well from Twitter, too. ELRICK: [Laughs] CHARLES: But I also feel like this is a fantastic company that is doing a lot of great stuff. ELRICK: Yup. CHARLES: Also not in Twitter. It should be pointed out. We have with us Tracy Lee and Ben Lesh from This Dot company. TRACY: Hey. CHARLES: So first of all, why don't we start, for those who don't know, what exactly is This Dot? What is it that you all do and what are you hoping to accomplish? TRACY: This Dot was created about a year ago. And it was founded by myself and Taras who work on it full-time. And we have amazing people like Ben, who's also one of our co-founders, and really amazing mentors. A lot of our friends, when they refer to what we actually do, they like to call it celebrity consulting. [Laughter] TRACY: Which I think is hilarious. But it's basically core contributors of different frameworks and libraries who work with us and lend their time to mentor and consult with different companies. So, I think the beautiful part about what we're trying to do is bring together the web. And we sort of do that as well not only through consulting and trying to help people succeed, but also through This Dot Media where it's basically a big playground of JavaScripting all the things. Ben and I do Modern Web podcast together. We do RX Workshop which is RxJS training together. And Ben also has a full-time job at Google. CHARLES: What do they got you doing over there at Google? BEN: Well, I work on a project called Alkali which is an internal platform as a service built on top of Angular. That's my day job. CHARLES: So, you've been actually involved in all the major front-end frameworks, right, at some point? BEN: Yeah, yes. I got my start with Angular 1 or AngularJS now, when I was working as a web developer in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at a company called Aesynt which was formerly McKesson Automation. And then I was noticed by Netflix who was starting to do some Angular 1 work and they hired me to come help them. And then they decided to do Ember which is fine. And I worked on a large Ember app there. Then I worked on a couple of large React apps at Netflix. And now I'm at Google building Angular apps. CHARLES: Alright. BEN: Which is Angular 5 now, I believe. CHARLES: So, you've come the full circle. BEN: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. CHARLES: [Chuckles] I have to imagine Angular's changed a lot since you were working on it the first time. BEN: Yeah. It was completely rewritten. TRACY: I feel like Angular's the new Ember. CHARLES: Angular is the new Ember? TRACY: [Laughs] BEN: You think? TRACY: Angular is the new Ember and Vue is the new AngularJS, is basically. [Laughs] CHARLES: Okay. [Laughter] CHARLES: What's the new React then? BEN: Preact would be the React. CHARLES: Preact? Okay, or is Glimmer… BEN: [Laughs] I'm just… CHARLES: Is Glimmer the new React? BEN: Oh, sure. [Laughs] CHARLES: It's important to keep these things straight in your head. BEN: Yeah, yeah. CHARLES: Saves on confusion. TRACY: Which came first? [Chuckles] BEN: Too late. I'm already confused. CHARLES: So now, before the show you were saying that you had just, literally just released RxJS, was it 5.5.4? BEN: That's right. That's right. The patch release, yeah. CHARLES: Okay. Am I also correct in understanding that RxJS has kind of come to very front and center position in Angular? Like they've built large portions of framework around it? BEN: Yeah, it's the only dependency for Angular. It is being used in a lot of official space for Angular. For example, Angular Material's Data Table uses observables which are coming from RxJS. They've got reactive forms. The router makes use of Observable. So, the integration started kind of small which HTTPClient being written around Observable. And it's grown from there as people seem to be grabbing on and enjoying more the React programming side of things. So, it's definitely the one framework that's really embraced reactive programming outside of say, Cycle.js or something like that. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, just to give a general background, how would you characterize RxJS? BEN: It's a library built around Observable. And Observable is a push-based primitive that gives you sets of events, really. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: So, that's like Lodash for events would be a good way to put it. You can take anything that you can get pushed at you, which is pretty much value type you can imagine, and wrap it in an observable and have it pushed out of the observable. And from there, you have a set of things that you can combine. And you can concatenate them, you can filter them, you can transform them, you can combine them with other sets, and so on. So, you've got this ability to query and manipulate in a declarative way, events. CHARLES: Now, Observable is also… So, when Jay was on the podcast we were talking about Redux observable. But there was outside of the context of RxJS, it was just observables were this standalone entity. But I understand that they actually came from the RxJS project. That was the progenitor of observables even though there's talk of maybe making them part of the JavaScript spec. BEN: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, RxJS as it stands is a reference implementation for what could land in JavaScript or what could even land in the DOM as far as an observable type. Observable itself is very primitive but RxJS has a lot of operators and optimizations and things written around Observable. That's the entire purpose of the library. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, what kind of value-adds does it provide on top of Observable? If Observable was the primitive, what are the combinators, so to speak? BEN: Oh, right. So, similar to what Lodash would add on top of say, an iterable or arrays, you would have the same sorts of things and more inside of RxJS. So, you've got zip which you would maybe have seen in Lodash or different means of combines. Of course, map and ‘merge map' which is like a flattening sort of operation. You can concatenate them together. But you also have these time-based things. You can do debouncing or throttling of events as they're coming over in observable and you create a new observable of that. So, the value-add is the ability to compose these primitive actions. You can take on an observable and make a new observable. We call it operators. And you can use those operators to build pretty much anything you can imagine as far as an app would go. CHARLES: So, do you find that most of the time all of the operators are contained right there inside RxJS? Or if you're going to be doing reactive programming, one of your tasks is going to be defining your own operators? BEN: No, pretty much everything you'd need will be defined within RxJS. There's 60 operators or so. CHARLES: Whoa, that's a lot. BEN: It's unlikely that someone's going to come up with one. And in fact, I would say the majority of those, probably 75% of those, you can create from the other 25%. So, some of the much more primitive operators could be used… TRACY: Which is sort of what Ben did in this last release, RxJS 5…. I don't know remember when you introduced the lettable operators but you… BEN: Yeah, 5.5. TRACY: Implemented [inaudible] operators. BEN: Yeah, so a good portion of them I started implementing in terms of other operators. CHARLES: Right. So, what was that? I didn't quite catch that, Tracy. You said that, what was the operator that was introduced? TRACY: So, in one of the latest releases of RxJS, one of the more significant releases where pipeable operators were introduced, what Ben did was he went ahead and implemented a lot of operators that were currently in the library in terms of other operators, which was able to give way to reduce the size of the library from, I think it was what, 30KB bundled, gzipped, and minified, to about 30KB, which was about 60 to 70% of the operators. Right, Ben? BEN: Yeah. So, the size reduction was in part that there's a lot of factors that went into the size reduction. It would be kind of hard to pin it down to a specific operator. But I know that some of the operators like the individual operators themselves, by reimplementing reduce which is the same as doing as scan and then take last, implementing it in terms of that is going to reduce the size of it probably 90% of that one particular file. So, there's a variety of things like that that have already started and that we're going to continue to do. We didn't do it with every operator that we could have. Some operators are very, very common and consequently we want them to be as optimized as possible. For example, map. You can implement map in terms of ‘merge map' but it would be very slow to do so. It might be smaller but it would be slower. We don't want that. So, there are certain areas we're always going to try to keep fairly a hot path to optimize them as much as possible. But in other spots like reduce which is less common and isn't usually considered to be a performance bottleneck, we can cut some corners. Or ‘to array' or other things like that. CHARLES: Mmhmm. TRACY: And I think another really interesting thing is a lot of people when learning RxJS, they… it's funny because we just gave an RX Workshop course this past weekend and the people that were there just were like, “Oh, we've heard of RxJS. We think it's a cool new thing. We have no plans to implement it in real life but let's just play around with it and let me learn it.” I think as people are starting to learn RxJS, one of the things that gets them really overwhelmed is this whole idea that they're having to learn a completely new language on top of JavaScript or what operators to use. And one of our friends, Brian Troncone who is on the Learning Team, the RxJS Learning Team, he pulled up the top 15 operators that were most commonly searched on his site. And some of them were ‘switch map', ‘merge map', ‘fork join', merge, et cetera. So, you can sort of tell that even though the library has quite a few… it's funny because Ben, I think the last RX Workshop you were using pairs and you had never used it before. BEN: Yeah. TRACY: So, it's always amusing for me how many people can be on the core team but have never implemented RxJS… CHARLES: [Laughs] TRACY: A certain way. BEN: Right. Right, right, right. CHARLES: You had said one of the recent releases was about making it more friendly for functional programming. Is that a subject that we can explore? Because using observables is already pretty FP-like. BEN: What it was before is we had dot chaining. So, you would do ‘dot map' and then call a method and then you get an observable back. And then you'd say ‘dot merge' and then you'd call a method on that, and so on and so forth. Now what you have is kind of a Ramda JS style pipe function that just takes a comma-separated list of other functions that are going to act upon the observable. So, it reads pretty much the same with a little more ceremony around it I guess. But the upside is that you can develop your operators as just higher-order functions. CHARLES: Right. And you don't have to do any monkey-patching of prototypes. BEN: Exactly, exactly. CHARLES: Because actually, okay, I see. This is actually pretty exciting, I think. Because we actually ran into this problem when we were using Redux Observable where we wanted to use some operators that were used by some library but we had to basically make a pull request upstream, or fork the upstream library to include the operators so that we could use them in our application. It was really weird. BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: The reason was because it was extending the observable prototype. BEN: Yeah. And there's so many… and that's one way to add that, is you extend the observable prototype and then you override lift so you return the same type of observable everywhere. And there are so many things that lettable operators solved for us. For example… CHARLES: So, lettable operators. So, that's the word that Tracy used and you just used it. What are lettable operators? BEN: Well, I've been trying to say pipeable and get that going instead of lettable. But basically there's an operator on RxJS that's been there forever called let. And let is an operator and what you do is you give it a function. And the function gives you the source observable and you're expected to return a new observable. And the idea is that you can then write a function elsewhere that you can then compose in as though it were an operator, anywhere you want, along with your other dot-chained operators. And the realization I had a few months ago was, “Well, why don't we just make all operators like this?” And then we can use functional programming to compose them with like a reduce or whatever. And that's exactly what the lettable operators are. And that's why I started calling them lettable operators. And I kind of regret it now, because so many people are saying it and it confuses new people. Because what in the world does lettable even mean? CHARLES: Right. [Laughs] BEN: So, they are pipeable operators or functional operators. But the point is that you have a higher-order function that returns a function of a specific shape. And that function shape is, it's a function that receives an observable and returns an observable, and that's it. So, basically it's a function that transforms an observable into a new observable. That's all an operator. That's all an operator's ever been. It's just this is in a different flavor. CHARLES: Now, I'm curious. Why does it do an observable into an observable and not a stream item into an observable? Because when you're actually chaining these things together, like with a map or with a ‘flat map' or all these things, you're actually getting an individual item and then returning an observable. Well, I guess in this case of a map you're getting an item and returning an item. But like… BEN: Right, but that's not what the entire operation is. So, you've got an operation you're performing whenever you say, if you're to just even dot-chain it, you'd say ‘observable dot map'. And when you say ‘dot map', it returns a new observable. And then you say ‘dot filter' and it returns another new observable. CHARLES: Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. BEN: So, this function just embodies that step. CHARLES: I see, I see. And isn't there some special… I feel like there's some proposal for some special JavaScript syntax to make this type of chaining? BEN: Yeah, yeah, the pipeline operator. CHARLES: Okay. BEN: I don't know. I think that's still at stage one. I don't know that it's got a lot of headway. My sources and friends that are in the TC39 seem to think that it doesn't have a lot of headway. But I really think it's important. Because if you look at… the problem is we're using a language where the most common use case is you have to build it, get the size as small as possible because you need to send it over the wire to the browser. And understandably, browsers don't want to implement every possible method they could on say, Array, right? CHARLES: Mmhmm, right. BEN: There's a proposal in for ‘flat map'. They could add zip to Array. They could add all sorts of interesting things to Array just by itself. And that's why Lodash exists, right? CHARLES: Right. BEN: Is because not everything is on Array. And then so, the onus is then put on the community to come up with these solutions and the community has to build libraries that have these constraints in size. And what stinks about that is then you have say, an older version of Lodash where you'd be like, “Okay, well it has 36 different functions in it and I'm only using 3 of them. And I have to ship them all to the browser.” CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And that's not what you want. So, then we have these other solutions around tree-shaking and this and that. And the real thing is what you want is you want to be able to compose things left to right and you want to be able to have these functions that you can use on a particular type in an ad hoc way. And there's been two proposals to try to address this. One was the ‘function bind' operator, CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: Which is colon colon. And what that did is it said, “You can use this function as a method, as though it were a method on an object. And we'll make sure that the ‘this' inside that function comes from the instance that's on the left-hand side of colon colon.” CHARLES: Right. BEN: That had a bunch of other problems. Like there's some real debate I guess on how they would tie that down to a specific type. So, that kind of fell dead in the water even though it had made some traction. And then the pipeline operator is different. And then what it says is, “Okay, whatever is on the…” And what it looks like is a pipe and a greater than right next to each other. And whatever's on the left-hand side of that operand gets passed as the first argument to the function on the right-hand side of that operand. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And so, what that means is for the pipeable operators, instead of having to use a pipe method on observable, you can just say, “instance of observable, pipeline operator and an operator, and then pipeline operator, and then the Rx operator, and then pipeline operator and the Rx operator, and so on.” And it would just be built-in. And the reason I think that JavaScript really needs it is that means that libraries like Lodash can be written in terms of simple functions and shipped piece-meal to the browser exactly as you need them. And people would just use the pipeline operator to use them, instead of having to wrap something in a big object so you can dot-chain things together or come up with your own functional pipe thing like RxJS had to. CHARLES: Right. Because it seems it happens again and again, right? Lodash, RxJS, jQuery. You just see this pattern of chaining, which is, you know… BEN: Yeah, yeah. People want chaining. People want left to right composition. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And it's problematic in a world where you want to shake off as much unused garbage as possible. And the only way to get dot chaining is by augmenting a prototype. There's all sorts of weird problems that can come with that. And so, the functional programming approach is one method. But then people look at it and they say, “Ooh, yuck. I've got to wrap things in a function named pipe. Wouldn't it be nicer if there was just some syntax to do this?” And yeah, it would be nicer. But I have less control over that. CHARLES: Right. But the other alternative is to have right to left function composition. BEN: Right, yeah. CHARLES: But there's not any special syntax for that, either. BEN: Not very readable. CHARLES: Yeah. BEN: So, you just wrap everything. And the innermost call is the first one and then you wrap it in another function and you wrap that in another function, and so on. Yeah, that's not [inaudible]. But I will say that the pipe function itself is pretty simple. It's basically a function that takes a rest of arguments that are all functions. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And so, you have this array of functions and you just reduce over it and call them. Well, you return a function. So, it's a higher function. You return a function that takes an argument then you reduce over the functions that came in as arguments and you call each one of them with whatever result was from the previous. CHARLES: Right. Like Tracy mentioned in the pre-show, I'm an aspiring student of functional programming. So, would this be kind of like a monoid here where you're mashing all these functions together? Is your empty value? I'm just going to throw it out there. I don't know if it's true or not, but that's my conjecture. BEN: Yes. Technically, it's a monoid because it wouldn't work unless it was a monoid. Because monoids, I believe the category theory I think for monoid is that monoids can be concatenated because they definitely have an end. CHARLES: Right. BEN: So, you would not be able to reduce over all those functions and build something with that, like that, unless it was a monoid. So yeah, the fact that there's reduction involved is a cue that it's a monoid. CHARLES: Woohoo! Alright. [Laughter] CHARLES: Have you found yourself wanting to apply some of these more “rigorous” formalisms that you find out there in the development of RxJS or is that just really a secondary concern? BEN: It's a secondary concern. It's not something that I like. It's something I think about from time to time, when really, debating any kind of heavy issue, sometimes it's helpful. But when it comes to teaching anybody anything, honestly the Haskell-isms and category theory names, all they do is just confuse people. And if you tell somebody something is a functor, they're like, “What?” And if you just say it's mappable, they're like, “Oh, okay. I can map that.” CHARLES: [Laughs] Right, right. BEN: And then the purists would be like, “But they're not the same thing.” And I would be like, “But the world doesn't care. I'm sorry.” CHARLES: Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of experiencing this debate myself. I'm not quite sure which side I fall on, because on the one hand it is arbitrary. Functor is a weird name. But I wish the concept of mappable existed. It does, but I feel like it would be handy if people… because there's literally five things that are super handy, right? Like mappable, if we could have a name for monoid. But it's like, really, you just need to think in terms of these five constructs for 99% of the stuff that you do. And so, I always wonder, where does that line lie? And how… mappable, is that really more accessible than functor? Or is that only because I was exposed to the concept of mapping for 10 years before I ever heard the F word. BEN: Yes, and yes. I mean, that's… CHARLES: [Laughs] BEN: Things that are more accessible are usually more accessible because of some pre-given knowledge, right? What works in JavaScript probably isn't going to work in Haskell or Scala or something, right? CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: If someone's a Java developer, certain idioms might not make sense to them that come from the JavaScript world. CHARLES: Right. But if I was learning like a student, I would think mappable, I'd be thinking like, I would literally be thinking like Google Maps or something like that. I don't know. BEN: Right, right. I mean, look at C#. C#, a mapping function is always going to be called select, right, because that's C#. That's their idiom for the same thing. CHARLES: Select? BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: Really? BEN: Yeah, select. So, they'll… CHARLES: Which in Ruby is like find. BEN: Yeah. there's select and then, what's the other one, ‘select many' or something like that. [Chuckles] BEN: So, that's C#. CHARLES: Oh, like it's select from SQL. Okay. BEN: Yeah, I think that's kind of where it came from because people had link and then they had link to SQL and then they're like, well I want to do this with regular code, with just using some more… less nuanced expressions. So, I want to be able to do method calls and chain those together. And so, you end up with select functions. And I think that that exists even in Rx.NET, although I haven't used Rx.NET. CHARLES: Hmm, okay. ELRICK: So, I know you do a lot of training with Rx. What are some of the concepts that people struggle with initially? TRACY: I think when we're teaching RX Workshop, a lot of the people sort of… I'll even see senior level people struggle with explaining it, is the difference between observables and observers and then wrapping their head around the idea that, “Hey, observables are just functions in JavaScript.” So, they're always thinking observables are going to do something for you. Actually, it's not just in Angular but also in React, but whenever someone's having issues with their Rx applications, it's usually something that they're like nesting observables or they're not subscribing to something or they've sort of hot-messed themselves into a tangle. And I'm sure you've debugged a bunch of this stuff before. The first thing I always ask people is, “Have you subscribed?” Or maybe they're using an Angular… they're using pipes async but they're also calling ‘dot subscribe' on their observable. BEN: Yeah. So, like in Angular they'll do both. Yeah. There's that. I think that, yeah, that relates to the problem of people not understanding that observables are really just functions. I keep saying that over and over again and people really don't seem to take it to heart for whatever reason. [Chuckles] BEN: But you get an observable and when you're chaining all those operators together, you're making another observable or whatever, observables don't do anything until you subscribe to them. They do nothing. CHARLES: Shouldn't they be called like subscribable? BEN: Yes. [Chuckles] BEN: They probably should. But we do hand them an observer. So, you are observing something. But the point being is that they don't do anything at all until you subscribe to them. And in that regard, they're like functions, where functions don't do anything unless you call them. So, what ends up happening with an observable is you subscribe to it. You give it an observer, three callbacks which are then coerced into an observer. And it takes that observer and it hands it to the body of this observable definition and literally has an observer inside of there. And then you basically execute that function synchronously and do things, whatever those things are, to set up some sort of observation. Maybe you spin up a WebSocket and tie into some events on it and call next on the observer to get values out of your observable. The point being that if you subscribe to an observable twice, it's the same thing as calling a function twice. And for some reason, people have a hard time with that. They think, if I subscribe to the observable twice, I've only called the function once. CHARLES: I experienced this confusion. And I remember the first time that that… like, I was playing with observables and the first time I actually discovered that, that it was actually calling my… now what do you call the function that you pass to the constructor that actually does, that calls next or that gets passed the observer? TRACY: [Inaudible] BEN: I like to call it an initialization function or something. But the official name from the TC39 proposal is subscriber function. CHARLES: Subscriber function. So, like… BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: I definitely remember it was one of those [makes explosion sound] mind-blowing moments when I realized when I call my subscribe method, the entire observable got run from the very beginning. But my intuition was that this is an object. It's got some shared state, like it's this quasar that I'm now observing and I'm seeing the flashes of light coming off of it. But it's still the same object. You think of it as having yeah, not as a function. Okay. No one ever described it to me as just a function. But I think I can see it now. ELRICK: Yeah, me neither. CHARLES: But yeah, you think of it in the same way that most people think of objects, as like, “I have this object. I have a reference to it.” Let observable equal new observable. It's a single thing. It's a single identity. And so, that's the thing that I'm observing. It's not that I'm invoking this observable to observe things. And I think that's, yeah, that's a subtle nuance there. I wish I had taken y'all's course, I guess is what I'm saying. ELRICK: Yeah. BEN: Yeah. Well, I've done a few talks on it. CHARLES: [Laughs] BEN: I always try to tell people, “It's just a function. It's just a function.” I think what happens to a lot of people too is there's the fact that it's an object. But I think what it is, is people's familiarity with promises does this. Because promises are always multicast. They are always “hot”. And the reason for this is because they're eager. So, by the time you have a promise, whatever is producing value to the promise has already started. And that means that they're inherently a multicast. CHARLES: Right. BEN: So, people are used to that behavior of, I can ‘then' off of this promise and it always means one thing. And it's like, yeah, because the one thing has nothing to do with the promise. It wasn't [Chuckles] CHARLES: Right. BEN: This promise is just an interface for you to view something that happened in the past, where an observable is more low-level than that and more simple than that. It just states, “I'm a function that you call. I'm going to be able to do anything a function can do. And by the way, you're giving me an observer and I'm going to do some stuff with that too and notify you via this observer that you handed me.” Because of that you could take an observable and close over something that had already started. Say you had a WebSocket that was already running. You could create a new observable and just like any function, close over that, externally create a WebSocket. And then everyone that subscribes to that observable is tying an observer to that same WebSocket. Then you're multicast. Then you're “hot”. ELRICK: [Inaudible] CHARLES: Right. So, I was going to say that's the distinction that Jay was talking about. He was talking about we're going to just talk about… he said at the very beginning, “We're just going to talk about hot observable.” ELRICK: Yup. CHARLES: But even a hot observable is still theoretically evaluating every single time you subscribe. You're getting a new observable. You're evaluating that observable afresh each time. It just so happens that in the lexical scope of that observable subscriber function, there is this WebSocket? BEN: Yeah. So, it's the same thing. Imagine you wrote a function that when you called it created a new WebSocket and then… say, you wrote a new function that you gave an observer object to, right? An observer object has next, error, and complete. And in that function, when you called it, it created a new WebSocket and then it tied the ‘on message' and ‘on close' and whatever to your observer's next method and your observer's error message and so on. When you call that function, you would expect a new WebSocket to be created every single time. Now, let's just say alternately you create a WebSocket and then you write a new function that that function closes over that WebSocket. So, you reference the WebSocket that you externally created inside of your function. When you call that function, it's not going to create a new WebSocket every time. It's just closing over it, right? So, even though they both are basically doing the same thing, now the latter one of those two things is basically a hot observable and the former is a cold observable. Because one is multicast which is, “I'm sharing this one WebSocket with everybody,” and the other one is unicast which is, “I am going to create a new WebSocket for each person that calls me.” And that's the [inaudible] people have a hard time with. CHARLES: Right. But really, it's just a matter of scope. BEN: Yeah. The thing people have a hard time with, with observables, is not realizing that they're actually just functions. CHARLES: Yeah. I just think that maybe… see, when I hear things like multicast and unicast, that makes me think of shared state, whereas when you say it's just a matter of scope, well then I'm thinking more in terms of it being just a function. It just happens that this WebSocket was already [scoped]. BEN: Well, shared state is a matter of scope, right? CHARLES: Yes, it is. It is. Oh, sorry. Shared state associated with some object identity, right? BEN: Right. CHARLES: But again, again, it's just preconceptions, really. It's just me thinking that I've had to manage lists of listeners and have multicast observers and single-cast observers and having to manage those lists and call notify on all of them. And that's really not what's happening at all. BEN: Yeah. Well, I guess the real point is observables can have shared state or they could not have shared state. I think the most common version and the most composable version of them, they do not have any shared state. It's just one of those things where just like a function can have shared state or it could be pure, right? There's nothing wrong with either one of those two uses of a function. And there's nothing wrong with either one of those two uses of Observable. So, honest to god, that is the biggest stumbling block I think that I see people have. That and if I had to characterize it I would say fear and loathing over the number of operators. People are like… CHARLES: [Chuckles] BEN: And they really think because everyone's used to dealing with these frameworks where there's an idiomatic way to do everything, they think there's going to be an RxJS idiomatic way to do things. And that's just patently false. That's like saying there's an idiomatic way to use functions. There's not. Use it however it works. The end. It's not… CHARLES: Mmhmm, mmhmm. BEN: You don't have to use every operator in a specific way. You can use it however works for you and it's fine. ELRICK: I see that you guys are doing some fantastic work with your documentation. Was that part of RxJS 2.0 docs? TRACY: I was trying to inspire people to take on the docs initiative because I think when I was starting to learn RxJS I would get really frustrated with the docs. BEN: Yeah. TRACY: I think the docs are greatly documented but at the same time if you're not a senior developer who understands Rx already, then it's not really helpful. Because it provides more of a reference point that the guys can go back and look at, or girls. So anyways, after many attempts of trying to get somebody to lead the project I just decided to lead the project myself. [Laughter] TRACY: And try to get… the community is interesting because I think because the docs can be sometimes confusing… Brian Troncone created LearnRxJS.io. There's these other visualization projects like RxMarbles, RxViz, et cetera. And we just needed to stick everybody together. So, it's been a project that I think has been going on for the past two months or so. We have… it's just an Angular app so it's probably one of the most easiest projects to contribute to. I remember the first time I tried to contribute to the Ember docs. It literally took me an hour to sit there with a learning team, Ember Learning Team member and… actually, maybe it was two hours, just to figure out how the heck… like all the things I had to download to get my environment set up so that I could actually even contribute to the darn documentation. But with the Rx, the current RxJS docs right now is just an Angular app. You can pull it down. It's really easy. We even have people who are just working on accessibility, which is super cool, right? So, it's a very friendly place for beginners. BEN: I'm super pleased with all the people that have been working on that. Brian and everybody, especially on the accessibility front. Jen Luker [inaudible] came in and voluntarily… she's like the stopgap for all accessibility to make sure everything is accessible before we release. So, that's pretty exciting. TRACY: Yeah. ELRICK: Mmhmm. TRACY: So funny because when me and Jen started talking, she was talking about something and then I was like, “Oh my god, I'm so excited about the docs.” She's like, “I'm so excited, too! But I don't really know why I'm excited. But you're excited, so I'm excited. Why are you excited?” [Laughter] TRACY: I was like, “I don't know. But I'm excited, too!” [Chuckles] TRACY: And then all of a sudden we have accessibility. [Laughs] ELRICK: Mmhmm. Yeah, I saw some amazing screenshots. Has the new docs, have they been pushed up to the URL yet? TRACY: Nah, they are about to. We were… we want to do one more accessibility run-through before we publish it. And then we're going to document. We want to document the top 15 most viewed operators. But we should probably see that in the next two weeks or so, that the new docs will be… I mean, it'll say “Beta, beta, beta” all over everything. But actually also, some of our friends, [Dmitri] from [Valas] Software, he is working on the translation portion to make it really easy for people to translate the docs. CHARLES: Ah. TRACY: So, a lot of that came from the inspiration from the Vue.js docs. we're taking the versioning examples that Ember has done with their docs as inspiration to make sure that our versioning is really great. So, it's great that we can lend upon all the other amazing ideas in the industry. ELRICK: Oh, yeah. CHARLES: Yeah, it's fantastic. I can't wait to see them. ELRICK: Yeah, me neither. The screenshots look amazing. I was like, “Wow. These are some fabulous documentation that's going to be coming out.” I can't wait. TRACY: Yeah. Thank you. CHARLES: Setting the bar. ELRICK: Really high. [Laughter] CHARLES: Actually, I'm curious. Because observables are so low-level, is there some use of them that… what's the use of them that you found most surprising? Or, “Whoa, this was a crazy hack.” BEN: The weirdest use of observables, there's been quite a few odd ones. One of the ones that I did one time that is maybe in RxJS's wheelhouse, it was just that RxJS already existed. So, I didn't want to pull in another transducer library, was using RxJS as a transducer. Basically… in Netflix we had a situation where we had these huge, huge arrays of very large objects. And if you try to take something like that and then map it and then filter it and then map it and then filter it, we're using Array map and filter, what ends up happening is you create all sorts of intermediary arrays in-memory. And then garbage collection has to come through and clean that up. And that locks your thread. And over time, we were experiencing slowness with this app. And it would just build up until eventually it ground to a halt. And I used RxJS because it was an available tool there to wrap these arrays in an observable and then perform operations on them step-by-step, the same map, filter, and so on. But when you do that, it doesn't create intermediary arrays because it passes each value along step to step instead of producing an entire array and then doing another step and producing an entire array, and so on. So… CHARLES: So, will you just… BEN: It saved garbage collection and it increased the performance of the app. But that's just in an extreme case. I would never do that with just regular arrays. If anything, it was because it was huge, huge arrays of very large objects. CHARLES: So, you would create an observable our of the array and then just feed each element into the observable one at a time? BEN: Well, no. If you say ‘observable from' and you give it an array, that's basically what it does. CHARLES: Okay. BEN: It loops over the array and nexts those values out of the array synchronously. CHARLES: I see, I see. BEN: So, it's like having a for loop and then inside of that for loop saying, “Apply the map. Apply the filter,” whatever, to each value as they're going through. But when you look at it, if you had array map, filter, reduce, it's literally just taking the first step and saying ‘observable from' and wrapping that array and then the rest of it's still the same. CHARLES: Right. Yeah. No, that's really cool. BEN: That was a weirder use of it. I've heard tell of other things where people used observables to do audio synchronization, which is pretty interesting. Because you have to be very precise with audio synchronization. So, hooking into some of the Web Audio APIs and that sort of thing. That's pretty interesting. The WebSocket multiplexing is something I did at Netflix that's a little bit avant-garde for observable use because you essentially have an observable that is your WebSocket. And then you create another observable that closes over that observable and sends messages over the WebSocket for what you're subscribed to and not subscribed to. And it enables you to very easily retry connections and these sorts of things. I did a whole talk on that. That one's pretty weird. CHARLES: Yeah. Man, I [inaudible] to see that. BEN: But in the general use case, you click a button, you make an AJAX request, and then you get that back and maybe you make another AJAX request. Or like drag and drop and these sorts of things where you're coordinating multiple events together, is the general use case. The non-weird use case for RxJS. Tracy does weird stuff with RxJS though. [Laughter] CHARLES: Yeah, what's some weird uses of RxJS? TRACY: I think my favorite thing to do right now is to figure out how many different IoT-related things I can make work with RxJS. So, how many random things can I connect to an application using that? BEN: Tracy's projects are the best. They're so good. [Laughter] TRACY: Well, Ben and I created an application where you can take pictures of things using the Google Image API and it'll spit back a set of puns for you. So, you take a picture of a banana, it'll give you banana puns. Or you can talk to it using the speech recognition API. My latest thing is I really want to figure out how to… I haven't figured out if Bluetooth Low Energy is actually enabled on Google Home Minis. But I want to get my Google Home Mini to say ‘booty'. [Inaudible] [Laughter] CHARLES: RxJS to the rescue. [Laughter] BEN: Oh, there was, you remember Ng-Cruise. We did Ng-Cruise and on there, Alex Castillo brought… TRACY: Oh, that was so cool. BEN: All sorts of interesting… you could read your brain waves. Or there was another one that was, what is it, the Microsoft, that band put around your wrist that would sense what direction your arm was in and whether or not your hand was flexed. And people… TRACY: Yeah, so you could flip through things. BEN: Yeah. And people were using reactive programming with that to do things like grab a ball on the screen. Or you could concentrate on an image and see if it went blurry or not. ELRICK: Well, for like, Minority Report. BEN: Oh, yeah, yeah. Literally, watching a machine read your mind with observables. That was pretty cool. That's got to be the weirdest. TRACY: Yeah, or we had somebody play the piano while they were wearing one of the brainwave… it's called the OpenBCI project is what it is. And what you can do is you can actually get the instructions to 3D print out your own headset and then buy the technology that allows you to read brain waves. And so with that, it's like… I mean, it was really awesome to watch her play the piano and just see how her brain waves were going super crazy. But there's also these really cool… I don't know if you guys have heard of Jewelbots, but they're these programmable friendship bracelets that are just little Arduino devices that light up. I have two of them. I haven't even opened them. CHARLES: [Laughs] TRACY: I've been waiting to play with them with you. I don't know what we're going to do, but I just want to send you lights. Flashing lights. [Laughter] TRACY: Morse code ask you questions about RxJS while you're working. [Laughter] CHARLES: Yeah. Critical bug. Toot-toot-toot-too-too-too-too-toot-toot. [Laughter] CHARLES: RxJS Justice League. TRACY: That would actually be really fun. [Laughter] TRACY: That would be really fun. I actually really want to do that. But… CHARLES: I'm sure the next time we talk, you will have. TRACY: [Laughs] Yes. Yes, yes, yes, I know. I know. we'll do it soon. We just need to find some time while we're not going crazy with conferences and stuff like that. CHARLES: So, before we head out, is there any upcoming events, talks, releases, anything that we ought to be, we or the listeners, ought to be aware of? TRACY: Yeah, so one of the things is that Ben and I this weekend actually just recorded the latest version of RX Workshop. So, if you want to learn all about the latest, latest, newest new, you can go ahead and take that course. We go through a lot of different things like multiplex WebSockets, building an application. Everywhere from the fundamentals to the more real world implementations of RxJS. BEN: Yeah. Even in the fundamentals area, we've had friends of ours that are definitely seasoned Rx veterans come to the workshop. And most of them ask the most questions while talking about the fundamentals. Because I tend to dig into, either deep into the internals or into the why's and how's thing. Why and how things work. Even when it comes to how to subscribe to an observable. Deep detailed information about what happens if you don't provide an error handler and certain cases and how that's going to change in upcoming versions, and why that's changing in upcoming versions, and what the TC39's thoughts are on that, and so on and so forth. So, I try to get into some deeper stuff and we have a lot of fun. And we tend to be a little goofier at the workshops from time to time than we were in this podcast. Tracy and I get silly when we're together. TRACY: It's very true. [Laughter] TRACY: But I think also, soon I think there are people that are going to be championing an Observable proposal on what [inaudible]. So, aside from the TC39 Observable proposal that's currently still at stage one, I don't know Ben if you want to talk a little bit about that. BEN: Oh, yeah. So, I've been involved in conversations with folks from Netflix and Google as well, Chrome team and TC39 members, about getting the WHATWG, the ‘what wig', they're a standards body similar to W3C, to include observables as part of the DOM. The post has not been made yet. But the post is going to be made soon as long as everybody's okay with it. And what it boils down to is the idea of using observables as part of event targets. An event target is the API we're all familiar with for ‘add event listener', ‘remove event listener'. So, pretty much anywhere you'd see those methods, there might also someday be an on method that would return an observable of events. So, it's really, really interesting thing because it would bring at least the primitives of reactive programming to the browser. And at the very least it would provide maybe a nicer API for people to subscribe to events coming from different DOM elements. Because ‘add event listener' and ‘remove event listener' are a little unergonomic at times, right? CHARLES: Yeah. They're the worst. BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: That's a very polite way of putting it. BEN: [Chuckles] So, that's one thing that's coming down the pipe. Other things, RxJS 6 is in the works. We recently tied off 5.5 in a stable branch. And master is now our alpha that we're working on. So, there's going to be a lot of refactoring and changes there, trying to make the library smaller and smaller. And trying to eliminate some of the footprints that maybe people had in previous versions. So, moving things around so people aren't importing stuff that were meant to be implementation details, reducing the size of the library, trying to eliminate some bloat, that sort of thing. I'm pretty excited about that. But that's going to be in alpha ongoing for a while. And then hopefully we'll be able to move into beta mid first quarter next year. And then when that'll be out of beta, who knows? It all depends on how well people like the beta and the alpha, right? CHARLES: Alright. Well, so if folks do want to follow up with y'all either in regards to the course or to upcoming releases or any of the other great stuff that's coming along, how would they get in touch with y'all? TRACY: You can find me on Twitter @ladyleet. But Ben is @BenLesh. RX Workshop is RXWorkshop.com. I think in January we're going to be doing state of JavaScript under This Dot Media again. So, that's where all the core contributors of different frameworks and libraries come together. So, we'll definitely be giving a state of RxJS at that time. And next year also Contributor Days will be happening. So, if you go to ContributorDays.com you can see the previous RxJS Contributor Days and figure out how to get involved. So, we're always open and happy and willing to teach everybody. And again, if you want to get involved it doesn't matter whether you have little experience or lots of experience. We are always willing to show you how you can play. BEN: Yeah. You can always find us on Twitter. And don't forget that if you don't find Tracy or I on Twitter, you can always message Jay Phelps on Twitter. That's important. @_JayPhelps. Really. TRACY: Yeah. [Laughter] BEN: You'll find us. CHARLES: [Chuckles] Look for Jay in the show notes. [Laughter] CHARLES: Alright. Well, thank you so much for all the stuff that y'all do, code and otherwise. And thank you so much Ben, thank you so much Tracy, for coming on the show. BEN: Thank you. CHARLES: Bye Elrick and bye everybody. If you want to reach out to us, you can always get in touch with us at @TheFrontside or send us an email at contact@frontside.io. Alright everybody, we'll see you next week.

This episode we look into the dark secret of the TEFL industry - teacher turnover. If you’re a manager, how many of these teacher turnover blunders are being made in your school?Tracy Yu: Welcome to the "TEFL Training Institute" podcast, the bite‑sized TEFL podcast for teachers, trainers and managers.Ross Thorburn: Tracy, how long have you worked in the same company for?Tracy: Almost 10 years. A long time.Ross: You must have renewed your contract a whole bunch of times then, have you?Tracy: Yeah.Ross: Can you tell me some of the reasons why you decided to stay?Tracy: I remember clearly the first time I renewed. I was really, really sure that I enjoyed the job teaching. I also enjoyed working with my colleagues and I liked the work environment. I listed the pros and cons and I think the schedule is not great but...Tracy: ...compared to some other factors, I think, yeah, I definitely want to stay.Ross: What about more recently?Tracy: For last two times, when I renewed contract, it's mainly because there were new challenges and the position has been changed. I can say got promoted or doing different role.Ross: When I do training with managers and I usually ask them, "What's the number one thing that motivates teachers?" Can you guess what they say?Tracy: Let me guess. I will say money...Ross: Yeah.Tracy: ...is one of them?Ross: Some people always say money and yet, again, there, none of the things that you said really were related to money. It was career development, it was your peers, it was enjoying teaching, all those different things.Tracy: I won't deny, salary increase would definitely going to be one reason why people, they are staying or they're changing jobs, but I don't think from my experience, that was the main reason why I did that.Ross: Today, we're going to look at teacher motivation and teacher retention and we've got three questions.Tracy: The first one, what are the common mistakes for teacher retention?Ross: What can managers and organizations do to retain teachers? Finally...Tracy: Why it's important for managers and organizations to keep teachers and to motivate them?What Are The Common Mistakes For Teacher Retention?Ross: Tracy, what do you think of some of the maybe common mistakes that managers and organizations make?Tracy: You mentioned earlier about money?Ross: Yeah.Tracy: I would say most people just assume, OK, no salary increase and compared to other organizations in this field, and the salary is not very competitive, that's why people leave because people live in the real world. They want to get more money, have a better living standard.Ross: Money is important, right?Tracy: Yeah. No one [laughs] is going to say no.[laughter]Tracy: Why do the managers still believe that's the main reason or the number one reason why people stay?Ross: Or why people leave? I think it's just a very 19th century, like a Victorian, very simple way of looking at motivation. A very capitalist way of looking at it. If you want people to do something, offer them money and they'll do it. I think the reason that doesn't work for teachers is because if you were someone that was really, really motivated by money, you wouldn't have become a teacher.Tracy: That's true. That's not the really wealthy industry, to be honest.[crosstalk]Ross: ...or you'd become a lawyer or you'd try to become a doctor, or you'd have become a sales person, but you wouldn't have moved to Prague and got a teaching job. At least for me, when I moved to China, I took a pay cut of about...I was getting paid, I think, a quarter or a fifth of what I getting paid before in the UK.That is not to say money is not important to me, but it's obviously not the main driving reason behind what I'm doing. Otherwise, I wouldn't take a 70 percent pay cut for a new job. I was sure that there was other factors that are important.Tracy: I think that will lead to the next one that I've been thinking about because a lot of time, the managers they believe what they believe. They never ask the teacher, "Is this the reason why you stay or is why the reason you leave?"Ross: There's a quote in the Bible, I think, isn't there? It's like, "Do unto others as you would have do unto you." Have you heard this before?Tracy: Yeah, I think so.[crosstalk]Tracy: It doesn't work...Ross: This is like treat other people the way you want to be treated.There's a quote from George Bernard Shaw who says, "Do not do unto others as they expect they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same." Obviously, different people are motivated by different things, but I think this is assumption that what motivates me must be the same as what motivates you.The big problem in organizations is that senior managers do get a high salary and probably are quite motivated by money. They may assume, "Oh, that must be the same for teachers," but it's not.Tracy: Yeah. That's a good point. A lot of managers of organizations don't really listen to teachers and what they really need and what motivates them because I think...We talk about sit down with teachers at different time, maybe before the probation or other probation six months or one year or different year before contract.You just maybe have a regular meeting or conversation with your teacher and just find out what's going on with them and what they really need.Ross: I think listening is the key thing there.Tracy: Exactly.Ross: If you're doing a review with someone after however long, that the main person speaking in the review to be the employee not the managers so you can find out more about what interests them, what their goals are, why they're doing the job. If you don't know those things, how can you expect to motivate someone?Tracy: A lot of teacher I talk to, at least, some teachers say, "Do you really think that I'm doing this job for money? No, because I want to really help people and to see my students develop, to learn something. I want to see their happy face at the end of the class." Don't assume people do or stay this job just because of money.What can managers and organizations do to retain teachers?Tracy: You've been a manager for a few years. What are the secrets for you as a manager to keep your staff?Ross: If you care for your staff and you say, "Oh, I know that you're going to leave one day. What I want to do in the next year, we want to give you some of the skills and things that are going to help you get to the next position, either on this company or outside this company."Say, you've told me you want to run your own center, school, or your own CertTESOL school, then great. "Great. OK, let's work on having a plan for you over the next year so that you can get skills, so that you'll be able to run your own school in a year's time, or two years' time." You're much more likely to stay with me for those two years.I think it's counter‑intuitive for people because I think people think, "Oh, I don't want to encourage my staff to leave." I think you want to encourage your staff to achieve their goals and those goals will probably usually be outside the company.For me, that secret is like listening to them, finding out what is it they want to achieve in the future, and then help them to make sure they get the skills in their current job that'll help them get there in the future. Your aim isn't to keep people until they're 65.Tracy: Yeah.[laughter]Ross: Your aim is to keep people as if keeping them for one year, keeping them for three years or four years.Tracy: That's an interesting point, though, because even for employee or for teachers and they stay longer and then automatically, we believe, "OK, the reason why I stay another year because I want to have a promotion." Of course, that's fine, but after what you mentioned, and then you think about, "OK, I'm going stay another year or two. What can I get out of it?"Ross: Yeah, exactly. That's why you want to talk to people about. What do you want to get out of staying here for another year and having that conversation with people?Tracy: That's my point. Just accept the position, the title, and the real skills and the competencies and knowledge and all that kinds of stuff, and people need to consider more. You know what I mean?Ross: I think that's something that managers need to help people to realize. For a lot of people, it's like, "Oh, I'm going to be standing up in front of a room of 15 kids again for a year teaching them ABC."[laughs] There's a lot more in a way of skills that you can get out of that that can help you to get a better job or something when you leave, or you can study a qualification or something that's going to help you get a different job when you leave.It's helping people realize what are the skills that you need for the future and then how can we make sure that you get those skills in your current position.Tracy: Yeah. In another word, I think, just to try to let them see their value in this team work, in this company...[crosstalk]Ross: It's just part, I think of recognizing people. I think it's about recognizing the right things. It's not about saying, "Well, well done. You got the most student retention, or you got the highest demonstration class conversion," or, "Well done. You came to work on time every day for the last month." It's about praising people for things that they want to be praised for.Tracy: Can I ask you here? I'm just confused that should we ask them or do you want me?Ross: You don't need to ask people like, "What do you want to be praised for exactly?" You can find out what people think that they're good at doing, and I think praising people for, "You made the most money for our company every month."That's great if it's a sales person because that is the role of a sales person, it's to make money. If it's a teacher and you praise them for making money, then you're not going to keep people who are very suited for the teaching profession.That all comes down to like you were saying at the beginning, getting to know people's motivation, understand...[crosstalk]Ross: ...and then sitting down with someone on the first day in the new job and say, "Why are you here? What do you want to get out of this?"Tracy: What if the teacher says, "I just want to come here to travel"?Ross: That's fine.Tracy: How can you help them?Ross: That was what I wanted to do in the beginning.Tracy: How can you do that to relate to their retention? Because you know they're going to leave. "I don't care..."Ross: I didn't leave. I came here to travel and I'm still in the same country, in the same organization 10 years later. People's motivations change and we know, again, from research that the majority of what's called Self‑initiated Expats, SIEs, so people who make the decision themselves to go abroad.One of the most common reasons, and the most common reason for language schools is, that they want to travel. Of course, give those people opportunities to do that but they might enjoy the job as I did. Like I really, really enjoyed teaching and as time has gone by, my motivations for staying in this profession, this industry have changed.Why it's important for managers and organizations to keep teachers and to motivate them?Tracy: We talked a lot about the common mistakes and how we motivate and keep teachers. Why do we do that? Why do we care about doing it?Ross: The main, I think, reason for big organizations is just it's very, very expensive to recruit teachers from abroad. You could save so much money by just keeping teachers in the same position for longer.That's the big picture. I think if it comes down to the small picture about teachers and students, then as a teacher, the most important thing you can do is understand and get to know your students.Tracy: Yeah, that's the common feedback that I heard when I met some students in the center and just say, "Oh, OK. After my six months alternative leave, I came back and there's no teacher in this school. I really know. They all left." I think that's a really, really bad effect on the students. It's definitely bad for the students.Ross: It's not necessarily saying that every teacher who's been teaching for five years is better than every teacher who's been teaching for six months. I think it's pretty much always true that you're a better teacher after five years than you were after one year. I definitely was.Tracy: Another thing is, similar to recruitment, is training, because we're doing training. [laughs] You know how much time and efforts we spend with the teachers and then they leave.That's the most frustrating thing for a trainer, at least for me. I have the teachers, I spend all the time, I'll be one or two weeks with them, and then you'll just see in six months or a year and they just left. They can do a really good job but...you know what I mean, and have to train new people again, again, again, and again.Ross: Which is really, really costly for organizations, right?Tracy: Yeah, exactly because they have to pay us to do training and stuff.Ross: This is something that's becoming more and more common not just in education but everywhere. If you look at my parents, they pretty much stayed in the same jobs for about 30‑something years. For your parents, how long did they work in the same companies for?Tracy: Their whole life, yeah.Ross: Yeah.Tracy: Definitely. More than 30 years.Ross: Right. I think now, things are changing a lot faster and I think the world average according to LinkedIn is only something like four years that people stay in the same company.Tracy: Of course, nowadays, we don't expect people to stay in the same company, same position 5, 10 years because that's unrealistic. Again, don't want to spend a lot of time and money, keep hiring new people and training them.Wrap UpTracy: Ross, you just started a new job. If you have a chance to tell your manager three things that can motivate you, what they are going to be?Ross: The team I work with is really important in my last job. I really loved all the people that I had worked with and that kept me there for quite a long time.As a manager, having control over who you hire is really, really important. Things like your work schedule and your work‑life balance is also super important especially nowadays. That's something that research has shown as important for every generation.For me, working overtime isn't a problem occasionally, but I know of some people and friends who've had to work six days a week and 12 hours a day every day for two years. Those people obviously quit.Making sure there's some work‑life balance. Professional growth and development, it might not be getting like doing tons of training courses or anything, but it might just be the opportunity to research and present at conferences.Tracy: That's very good advice.Ross: I hope she's listening.Tracy: [laughs] Good luck. All right. Bye, everyone.