Podcasts about southern baptist church

On today's show, episode 179, I'm speaking with David L. Jones, who grew up under the umbrella of the Southern Baptist Church in North Carolina, USA. I had a wonderful conversation with David about his spiritual journey, from his vocation as Pastor of an Independent Sunday-keeping Baptist Church to pastoring a Seventh-day Sabbath-keeping fellowship located in a high concentration area of the North Carolina Bible Belt. The area has a strong presence of Protestant evangelical and fundamentalist Christians who collectively maintain a strong influence on religious beliefs based on social and political life. I'll be speaking with David about his spiritual journey, leading both he and his wife into pursuing a lifestyle according to the Laws of the Mosaic Torah, especially that of observing the Seventh-Day Sabbath and keeping biblical festivals in harmony with the teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls Zadokite Ecclesiastical Calendar and faithfully adhering to the Torah's clean and unclean food laws. David and the Baptist Church he was pastoring stopped putting up Christmas Trees and partaking in whole-hog barbecues, the eating of pork shoulders, bacon, and a unique blend of seafoods such as oysters, clams, and shrimp. With all these changes, we'll learn how they affected not only his immediate family but also how the biblical Torah amazingly touched and changed the lives of the congregation he was pastoring as an Independent North Carolina Baptist Church. Further, we'll also learn about the Jones Family singers and their love for music in the genres of Southern Gospel and Bluegrass. Please, join me now for my interview with David L. Jones.

Please, feel free to send a text message here and give us feedback. Also, you may send a text msg or leave voicemail (425) 550-6670. Please DO NOT ask questions here because I have no way to respond to your questions. If you have questions, please send an email: questions@cominghome.co.ilOn today's show, episode 179, I'm speaking with David L. Jones, who grew up under the umbrella of the Southern Baptist Church in North Carolina, USA. I had a conversation with David about his spiritual journey, from his vocation as Pastor of an Independent Sunday-keeping Baptist Church to pastoring a Seventh-day Sabbath-keeping fellowship located in a high concentration area of the North Carolina Bible Belt. The area has a strong presence of Protestant evangelical and fundamentalist Christians who collectively maintain a strong influence on religious beliefs based on social and political life. I'll be speaking with David about his spiritual journey, leading both he and his wife into pursuing a lifestyle according to the Laws of the Mosaic Torah, especially that of observing the Seventh-Day Sabbath and keeping biblical festivals in harmony with the teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls Zadokite Ecclesiastical Calendar and faithfully adhering to the Torah's clean and unclean food laws. David and the Baptist Church he was pastoring stopped putting up Christmas Trees and partaking in whole-hog barbecues, the eating of pork shoulders, bacon, and a unique blend of seafoods such as oysters, clams, and shrimp. With all these changes, we'll learn how they affected not only his immediate family but also how the biblical Torah amazingly touched and changed the lives of the congregation he was pastoring as an Independent North Carolina Baptist Church. Further, we'll also learn about the Jones Family singers and their love for music in the genres of Southern Gospel and Bluegrass. Please, join me now for my interview with David L. Jones. Support the show

Hosts Pastor Vincent Fernandez and Pastor Lloyd Pulley Question Timestamps: Esteban, Australia (1:34) - Can you clarify Leviticus 19:28, does it apply to wearing a wristband in remembrance of a friend? Bob, PA (5:25) - Why are there three extra books in the Catholic Bible? Jay, email (8:28) - Did God call Paul the apostle to preach to the Gentiles and then the Jews? Did he obey that order at the beginning? DM316, YouTube (10:32) - Can you help me understand why someone would experience extreme highs and lows in their life as a Christian? Eileen, email (16:28) - How would you talk with someone who believes that all religions lead to God? Reyna, MA (22:29) - How do you deal with the realization that you are more sinful than you thought?  David, GA (25:47, continued after break 33:30) - Are there any particular differences I should be aware of when attending a Southern Baptist Church? Is there an issue with having an image of Jesus? Leila, NJ (36:54) - What would you suggest for stopping my anger towards another Christian that I've had issues with? Pam, MA (43:22) - What needs to happen prophetically for the last days to come about? Brad, TX (47:37) - Is it up to us to follow up with people who claim they are "once saved, always saved" but still live in sin?  Jeanine, SC (52:56) - Is it correct for a church to have a "deliverance ministry?" Ask Your Question: 888-712-7434 Answers@bbtlive.org

Southern Baptist Convention membership has dropped to its lowest level in over 50 years, falling from nearly 13.7 million in 2021 to just over 12.7 million in 2025. While leaders tout rising baptism numbers, critics say this masks the real issue—declining relevance and aging congregations.The Non-Prophets dive into what this means for American Christianity, global religious trends, and why the church's cultural power may not be fading as fast as its pews.News Source The Friendly Atheist, by Hemant Mehta, May 1, 2025https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/southern-baptist-membership-hitsThe Non-Prophets, Episode 24.19.4 featuring Kelley Laughlin, Eli Slack, Jason Friedman, and Jonathan RoudabushSouthern Baptist Membership Plummets to 50-Year Low

On this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, Brenda speaks with Chasity Lourde Wright. Chasity is inventor and founder of Infiltron  Software Suite LLC. Infiltron operates in the cybersecurity space; a Service disabled-Veteran owned and women-owned small business. Infiltron offers quantum-resistant cybersecurity solutions for decentralized digital identity, digital assets, and AI governance, utilizing proprietary post-secure encryption. Its patented technology integrates AI, blockchain, and quantum-resistant encryption to provide advanced cyber resilience, compliance enforcement, and real-time threat mitigation across multiple industries, including aerospace & defense, fintech, smart cities, and EVs.   Chasity, as inventor, speaks about her team and how creativity in the work place is necessary for  enhancing innovation on really tough problems like Cybersecurity. As the CEO of Infiltron, Chasity Lourde Wright is also a former USAF Aerospace Engineer, Intel Officer, and Cybersecurity Instructor with extensive experience in cybersecurity, AI governance, and national security. She was part of the team that developed reconfiguration capabilities for the USAF C-130 and contributed to the creation of the CMMC framework since its inception in 2019. Additionally, she has engaged in high-level cybersecurity and AI governance initiatives, including industry collaborations, government advisory roles, and proprietary innovations in quantum-resistant encryption, AI security, and blockchain-based compliance solutions. Her expertise extends beyond participating in NIST challenges, encompassing leading-edge cybersecurity development, policy influence, and defense sector innovations. You can find out more about Chasity and Infiltron at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/infiltronsoftwaresuite/ https://infiltron.net/     Transcript: 00:04 Hi, I'm pleased to announce something very special to me, a new subscription-based service through Next Act Advisors that allows members exclusive access to personal industry insights and bespoke 00:32 corporate governance knowledge. This comes in the form of blogs, personal book recommendations, and early access to the founder's sandbox podcast episodes before they released to the public. If you want more white glove information on building your startup with information like what was in today's episode, sign up with the link in the show notes to enjoy being a special member of Next Act Advisors. 01:01 As a thank you to Founders Sandbox listeners, you can use code SANDBOX25 at checkout to enjoy 25% off your membership costs. Thank you. 01:19 Welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe, your host of this monthly podcast in which I bring entrepreneurs, founders, corporate directors, and professional service providers who, like me, want to effectuate change in the world by building resilient, scalable, and purpose-driven companies. I like to recreate a fun sandbox environment with my guests. And we will touch on not only their purpose, 01:47 and what has driven them to create their own businesses. But also we're going to touch upon topics such as resilience, purpose-driven, and scalable sustainable growth. Today, I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest Chasity Wright. Welcome, Chasity. Hey. Thank you for having me. 02:13 Super excited to talk about how Infiltron has evolved and the lessons learned and how we're preparing to relaunch in 2025. Excellent. And it's perfect timing because I've known you for a couple of years now. Yeah. Right. So Chasity is CEO and founder of Infiltron Software Suite, a company that's headquartered out of Atlanta. 02:40 She is oftentimes in Los Angeles because she's working largely in the defense market and cyber security. So I wanted to have you on my podcast because you have gone further in building your business. So you and I met, I want to say back in 2022, you came out of the Women Founders Network cohort. 03:08 kind of very early stage. One of the events that I was a host of was the Thai So Cal Women's Fund. And you weren't yet ready for investing, but we struck up, I would say a friendship and I admire many things about you as, and we'll get into it in the podcast here, but you touch. 03:35 quite a few or check of quite a few boxes for my podcast. You says, so you are a woman owned veteran and women owned business. You are a veteran of the Air Force. You're in deep tech and you're by park and queer. And so there's many many boxes that you check and it was difficult to kind of hone in on what I really wanted to bring into the podcast today, but we're going to we're going to start from here. 04:05 I always like to ask my guests to start with kind of their origin story. I, when I first met you, right, in private conversations, got to hear your origin story and why you do what you do, what your firsthand experience while on missions, right, that really informed your aha moments to create infiltrant. 04:33 as a cybersecurity company. So tell us a bit about your origin story, Chasity. So, I mean, my origin story has, if you can imagine all of these different paths kind of streamlining into one path. So one of those paths would be a little black girl born in Georgia, still seeing dirt roads and... 05:01 being able to go to the country and work on a farm and, you know, just still having that connection to the past, you know, and not necessarily the past in a bad way. So athletic, played ball in college, went to Clark Atlanta University, you know, the HBCUs are a big hurrah right now, but they've always been one. 05:29 I grew up with one in my backyard, Fort Valley State, which is in Fort Valley, Georgia. So, you know, roughed it with the boys, played in the backyard with the boys, always been a boys girl, cousins, neighbor. We're all still close. We all still play sports when we meet. So it's like an adult play date, so to speak. But also, you know, 05:58 raised religiously, you know, I'm in Southern Baptist Church, two parent household, maybe lower middle class, but middle school was very transformative for me because they decided to mix in everybody. So it was my first time, you know, being in a more diverse population in school. 06:25 And, you know, music is a big thing for me as well. I DJ, I make music. That's the creative part of me. And I found a lot of people in deep tech to do something with music. So, yeah, so, you know, that's my like early years background. And then coming through, I decided to go into the Air Force. I actually took off between my junior and senior year at Clark Atlanta. 06:52 Um, there I was majoring in global leadership and management. Okay. And went in and I was in for eight years. I was an aerospace engineer, uh, got deployed several times, uh, to different places, and that kind of brings us to why Infiltron exists and, um, on one of those deployments, I was a part of a network takedown. 07:21 And it was, whoo. I mean, I don't mean to quote the pitch deck story, but it is what it is. I wrote it because that's the way it felt. It was catastrophic. So just imagine the city of Los Angeles losing power out of nowhere. The rail stops working, Sinai has no power, so all of the medical equipment is no longer working. 07:49 The internet's completely gone and not rebooting like it normally would. Your energy grid is down. That is what I experienced in one of those deployments. And I was a part of Iraqi freedom and Afghanistan. I was a part of both of those wars. And when we came, you know, we got everything back. Thank God we were smart enough to ship. 08:19 brand new equipment. Okay, you know, so you know, we weren't able to get there. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's part of our job. We're engineers. And when you're in the middle of nowhere, there's no calling HP. There's no calling Cisco. Like you got to know how to do what needs to be done. There was there was a lot of makeshifting. I can be I came out of Air Force, I could be a mechanical engineer to 08:45 because we had to figure out how to make components on the fly. It was just so many things. Innovation, right? Like you had to be innovative. You had to be adapt quickly while keeping the mission as a focus. So just imagine something that catastrophic and something similar has happened. I feel like Colonial Pipeline was something that is known now in the US for sure. 09:15 that had similar elements of what we experienced in being deployed. Yeah, and that was two years back. And SolarWinds is another one. I generally refer to those because people generally gasp, even non-technical people, because they know how damaging it was. So we can reuse. Normally, when the equipment goes down, 09:44 Unplug, right? Plug back in. Reboot. Yeah, reboot. But that was not happening. And what we found out in the debrief was that quantum was used. So quantum simplistically is about frequencies in this context. It's about frequencies. And frequencies matter in so many aspects of life, from spirituality all the way through tech like what Infotron has. So... 10:14 What they did was they basically zeroed out the frequencies of our satellite communications. And I believe that they created some frequencies that damaged other equipment. So these are things that again we found out in the debrief. And I wasn't really able to talk to that probably when we met because I wasn't sure if it was unclassified yet. 10:42 But as soon as Biden started talking about quantum initiative, which was back in 2022, when we were in, I was like, everything's hitting it the right time because we were literally in Techstars LA space. And Biden pushed the quantum initiative. And I'm like, see, told you, because a lot of people, a lot of people doubted what I was saying because of the year that I said it had happened. And as. 11:09 we started to grow out our team. There are other veterans on our team from different branches. And of course we war story swap all the time. And those other two people work for like NSA and they did kind of the same thing, telecommunications. And I'm telling the pitch desk story and they're sitting there like, yep, yep. That happened to us too. And I'm like, when? 11:38 And they're saying different years. So at that point, we understood it. It happened more than once. So that's why Infiltronic. So what's Infiltronic? So let's bring it back to, Yeah. So you leave, you leave service after eight years after also experiencing that. I still feel like I'm a part of it because I do consult them still. Right. So it'd be great. So. 12:08 And once in the Air Force forever? Always. Well, I really would have been in Space Force. Yes. Yeah. Well, you heard that here on the Founder Sandbox. The next, yes. So for my listeners, again, you check a lot of boxes. Deep tech, women in STEM. What is it exactly that? 12:37 your suite of services. All right. So Info-Trans software, right, has two patents now. And on your landing page, it says, our patented solutions, solutions utilize adaptive artificial intelligence, advanced quantum encryption and blockchain technology to deliver real-time cybersecurity for a wide array of applications. Later on, we'll get into smart cities, but 13:06 including the internet of things, smart devices, legacy systems, hybrid data, signals and devices. All pretty, pretty understandable, but what is it that Infiltrion software is able to do that others are not? So we're able to create a easier way for businesses to migrate their devices. 13:36 and their software, so their applications that they use, maybe they've developed them themselves, we provide a way for them to easily migrate those entities over into a more quantum-proofed infrastructure. So we created what we've trademarked as quantum encapsulation. So just imagine something being encapsulated. And basically we've created, 14:05 a brand new method of leveraging quantum, the AI, we leverage it for the pro-activeness. So in lieu of just waiting for threats to happen to our clients, we go look for the threat. So we want to go be where the bad guys are and find out and bring that information back and update the solution in real time to provide protection for all of our clients in real time. 14:33 That's how we leverage the AI. The blockchain is kind of leveraged to kind of make sure that people, things like devices, aren't on networks that shouldn't be. So it's kind of, I mean, we use it for what blockchain was pretty much basically developed for, and that's a ledger. So keeping up with the transactions of what's happening. 15:03 in a client's infrastructure. Fantastic. So it's largely a B2B business, yours, right? We do. We have B2B, but we've been approached several times here recently by consumers. Because now, because of the biometric protection aspect of our solution using the quantum encapsulation, we can protect, say, 15:32 Halle Berry from deep fake, being deep faked, or, you know, protecting her likeness from being used without her knowledge in movies, CGI'd into movies. So it's kind of getting a little bit more consumerish as we iterate, right? Yeah, and we were briefly speaking before the podcast recording, Chasity and I, and... 15:59 I've known her for years. She's a very private person, would not allow photographs. So I told my producer, I'm certain Whitney Chastity's not going to be sending us a picture, but you said yes, that you might, because you do have biometric, artificial intelligence, safeguards that can actually discover deep fakes, right? Yes, yes. Yep, if it didn't come from us, if it wasn't checked back from us, 16:29 It wasn't approved by the person. So it's kind of pretty much that simple. Amazing. Well, later on in the show notes, we will have how to contact you at Enfield Tron. So you are in the startup ecosystem. Again, you travel a lot. You're between Washington DC, Atlanta, Los Angeles, and actually the Bay Area. Yeah, the Bay Area. Right. So. 16:58 Revenue can be elusive, right? How? Especially in tech, and especially in these really large markets that I call deep tech. Deep tech and leading edge, bleeding edge, right? People don't know what they're actually buying, right? Or what they don't even, they probably don't even know that they have a need, right? What's been your strategy at Infiltron to keep the revenue flowing while maintaining also a pretty playful, innovative culture? 17:27 You talked about your team and so talk, that's kind of two questions. So how have you kept revenue coming, right? While not going out for dilutive funding yet, but tell us a little bit about how, what's your business model? So the business model in itself is set up for B2B and we also have a licensing element there. So if they, for instance, 17:56 a Fortune 500 company who has a cyber team, right? They have an internal cyber team. If they want to license out the patents that we have and kind of customize it or create or build off of those, use it as a baseline for what they need for their systems, we offer that as well. But let me just put it out there. But back to your question, how do we keep it fun? So the team... 18:25 The original team members, should I say. So we met about seven years ago at a place called the Gathering Spot in Atlanta. So the Gathering Spot is a community and they just opened one in LA and I do go to the one in LA too when I'm there. But it's a community of people, creatives from creative people to deep tech people like myself and everything in between. 18:55 We went to a black tech event at the gathering spot and found ourselves not being able to get into the actual room. So we ended up, because they have a bar and everything at the gathering spot. It's a social club too. It has a club aspect to it too, but you can network there, have meetings there, meet all types of people. I mean known people, I mean it's a great 19:25 great concept, shout out to Ryan. But we found ourselves at the bar, and we're looking at each other. We knew each other because we had been introduced by the Hellbrella person, Tracy. Yes, yes. Because they had done some things for her with a previous startup that she had, development-wise. So we're all sitting at the bar, and we're looking at each other like, but we're the real tech people. 19:55 We do it. It's like we don't really take people. Um, we can't even get in there. We like, we know the organizers and personally and everything. So let's start a company. Well, what we did was we launched, um, what we launched kit labs. And it was literally right down the street from the 20:23 and connect to the community. So we had, it's not far from the AUC and the AUC is where Morris Brown, Morehouse, Spelman and Clark Atlanta are. Got it. So a lot of times you would come in there and find some of the founders, cause this was founded by myself and like six or seven other black tech founders. The ones that were outside. Drinking like, you know. 20:53 That's where we had that conversation. You know, the conversation started at the bar, being outside of that first Black Tech meetup, so to speak, with Joey Womack, who is a part of Goody Nation, who we did get a 50K grant from back in 2020 through Google for Startups. Let me just say this so much. We were so interconnected. I mean, Atlanta is Wakanda. Don't let anybody tell you anything different. 21:21 It's definitely Wakanda. But literally, not even a mile away from the Gathering Spot, we opened up Kit Labs. It's a smart lab where we can tinker with stuff. We're engineers. We're tech people. We need something. We need a makerspace. We don't necessarily need a space that is compared. The Gathering Spot was a little bit more buttoned up. 21:46 And then what we needed, we needed to be able to throw things and make things. We had everything from like 3d printers to, um, VR, AR headsets. I mean, you, anything in tech. Innovative fun. It was in, is in that lab. Um, but that's where around today. So we dissolved it. So it's been dissolved. What one of, one of the founders, he unfortunately transitioned. Um, 22:15 So, you know, and he was kind of like the pillar of it. And it kept going for a while, but it was just a lot of people like myself, it was two female founders, Dr. Nashley Cephas, who herself is from Jackson, Mississippi. I'm shouting out everybody, right? She's from Jackson, Mississippi, and she bought 10 acres in downtown Jackson, Mississippi and started a nonprofit called Bean Pad. And he basically took the concept of what we were doing at Kit Labs and brought it to our hometown. So. 22:44 Um, and it's so funny. She actually founded it on my birthday. So I was like, okay, I can dig that. Um, uh, but, but no, but we're still connected. Everybody still works with each other. You know, if I have to come in and do some things around cyber for a contract or, you know, commercial or whatever client that they have, I do like we, we all kind of still work together on each other's things. So that has allowed you to bring in some revenues, right? 23:14 through its service context. Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. Consultant wise, cause they're like, I think people may look at Infotron and think that there's not a human touch piece there, but if you're dealing with me, there's always gonna be a human touch point there because we have to consult the client. We can't assume, you know, we cannot assume. 23:41 what you need, we have to actually have a conversation with our clients throughout the process, even after we possibly have set up the platform for you, trained your people on it, there still needs to be an element of communication, human communication, right? But the team, we've been working together for about seven years. Yes. 24:10 Infiltron has been around for five, going on six years now. So, you know, I mean, respect, mutual respect, we're still kids at heart. I mean, we grew up wanting to be engineers. So, you really can't take the light of innovation out of an engineer unless they're just at the point of not wanting to do it anymore. So we're always, what I've found is most people in any engineering discipline are very, 24:39 curious and forward thinking. So we, and we kind of, we're kind of like a community. We are community and not kind of like, but we are community of folks that contribute to each other's, you know, projects. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And not just, not just business-wise, but personally, like we, I mean, we've been around each other for almost a decade, so. 25:04 there's been kids born and like I just said, one of our founders transitioned, like we've been through some things together that have brought us closer together. And you can, I believe when you have a team like that, and we're all diverse, you know, we have a team like that that cultivates innovation, for sure. You know, I've had a few guests to my podcast and I also write about this, 25:35 Creativity is only possible or it's greatly possible when you create a fun environment and make games out of things and have, right? And set up teams. So I think a shout out to you and what you've set up at Infiltron and in its earlier rendering at Kit Labs, just creating an environment that allows for what ifs, right? Is key. There are a lot of what ifs in cyber. 26:04 I bet you there. So I have a boatload of questions here. One is, before we get into your fundraising path, again, I mentioned earlier you have two patents that have been issued. What is post-quantum encryption technology in layman language? Post. 26:32 Quantum encryption technology. So there is definitely confusion out there that has been addressed. And because there is a difference between post secure quantum and encryption. There's a difference. So. Excellent. 27:02 Post quantum encryption, it is designed to protect data from quantum computers. So. And that's done through the encapsulation? For us, that is how we provide the protection, the encryption. That is the quantum encapsulation is a method of encryption with Involtron. So the current encryption. So you have things like RSA. 27:32 elliptical curve, which elliptical curve is more widely used and kind of being marketed as quantum encryption. It is, it is, it's on the list of quantum protections, right, or quantum methods of encryption protection. So companies like Okta use ECC a lot. But what's happening is that quantum computers are being built now. Yes. Like right now, there's no... Yeah, the cost is going down. 28:02 Yeah, there's no waiting five years from now. Like I urge anyone under the sound of my voice to prepare now for quantum computer attacks. The same thing that I describe happening to us when we were deployed, it's gonna happen. And again, I alluded to feeling like 28:33 situations like Colonial Pipeline and SolarWinds were, I feel like they were tests because there were so many different elements of what we saw in the deployment that happened in those two cases. Yeah, because I'm sitting there and think it's like 2020, 2021, 2019 actually, it started. I think this didn't know, but. 28:59 And it's still going like 20, SolarWinds was still going, the last time I checked SolarWinds was still unraveling. Like it's still, still going. But back to the question. So for us, quantum encapsulation for us is breakthrough. So NIST has had these challenges, right? Where they put out bidding for companies, 29:27 researchers, because a lot of people that are in the quantum space, whether it's physics, mechanics, are generally found in academia. They're not at Infiltron. They're not at QED. They're just not there, right? It's very far in between, and we generally have to lure them. Or we have to do something like partner with them on... 29:53 grants, like the STTR grants. Like that's the only way, generally the only way that we can probably connect with the academia or pierce them and have them work with us. And they usually through that take all the funding, but it's, you're still. Exposed, right? You're exposed, but you're also getting the expertise that you possibly need and can't rightly find in the freelancing world. Yeah. So it generally works out in the long run. 30:23 Um, but so our encapsulation is a, is a breakthrough method because I look at it like this, NIST is holding these challenges and nothing against NIST. We're connected. I contribute to NIST and everything, but they are holding these challenges. And basically they're telling the hackers what people are going to the framework. 30:49 what people are gonna have to adhere to when they create their quantum algorithms to protect their devices and data. You know, you're giving away the secret ingredients. So like, even if they don't know specifically your algorithm, they know what you've based it off of. And that gives it like a tiny thread can unravel a whole t-shirt, right? So I look at it like that. So... 31:15 And even before, you know, we were already developing things before NIST put out these challenges. We are in alignment. We can adhere and do it here to the framework that they're putting out because, you know, you have the DOD space who definitely follows their framework, especially when it comes to the risk management framework. So they're going to follow NIST regardless. They're going to follow their framework, whatever they put out about cybersecurity protection. 31:44 The DOD space and all of its agencies are gonna follow that. However, being in the cybersecurity space every day, seeing what is happening and knowing that you've given some clues, some contextual clues to the malicious hackers about what you're using as a baseline to build your algorithms will, guess what? What we have is not that. Like we are... 32:12 One of the things that differentiates us right now, because I'm sure as quantum cybersecurity continues to grow legs, so to speak, people are gonna start using the more, less susceptible to hacks by quantum computers method. So you have things like multivariate hash code. So these are some of the 32:40 quantum properties that you can use that are not generally hackable by a quantum computer. They won't be hackable by a quantum computer. So we leveraged some of that. It was like, if I'm built, I looked at it like this, I've been in cyber, I've been in tech for almost 20 years. I know I don't look it. I get it all the time. You don't have to say it. I've been in tech for almost 20 years. I've been, and when I was in the air force, we call it InfoSec. It's the same thing. And that dates me. 33:08 If I say, if you hear somebody say InfoSec, trust me, they've been in cybersecurity for at least 20 plus years. So, but it's cybersecurity, that's what it is. And I've seen the changes and I've paid my dues too. Like I didn't, when I got out of the Air Force, I was just, side note, like I cut grass and loved it. I would go back and do it if I can make these results. So then like, it's very, it's very fulfilling. Don't let anybody fool you. Like I love, but I like being outside, but. 33:38 Um, my first tech job though, I literally went through the phone book. Cause this is like still, you know, internet was not quite what it is now, of course, but it was like still growing. And I went through the yellow pages and went through the aerospace companies and called all of them and was like, Hey, let's just get out of the air force, look for a job. I don't care if it's an intern or co-op and L3 L3 before they merged with Harris. Uh, 34:08 they created me a co-op. And, but again, still in touch with, cause you know, L3 is a huge government contracting company, right? And in the satellite communication space, cause they're in line with my background. And so I've seen it all. I've seen the changes of InfoSec into cybersecurity. And now we're entering a new frontier with quantum cybersecurity. So I've been here, 34:37 maybe at the latter part of the info set, but definitely through the cybersecurity and here for and to forge some guidelines and pathways in the quantum cybersecurity space with Inflotron. So when you know Inflotron was founded in 2019, I was like, okay, if I'm gonna start 35:03 something new in cyber and we hadn't even gotten to the quantum piece yet. They hadn't even gotten to me yet. Like it started like I was getting downloads. Yeah. Because I'm, I always, I'm a reader. I wake up looking at cyber news and just staying in the know because I need to know what's going on so I can protect my clients, whether that was me in a government contracting position or me as a consultant in my businesses. So. 35:33 I need to know what's going on. And if I'm going to build something new, why am I going to build it with compromised parts? Right. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah. Forget the tech. It didn't make logical sense. If I'm going to build something new, a SaaS product that's going to integrate and be flexible and adaptable and proactive. 36:01 Why would I use RSA encryption when I know what's coming? Got it. That will be one of the snippets that I share in my YouTube channel as well as the podcast. That is excellent. Why build something with compromised parts? Frontier technology, quantum cybersecurity is what Epfiltron is about. 36:30 Next generation. Talk to me a little bit more for us, less tech savvy listeners about the use of Infiltron in a SelleGov's program for smart cities. That kind of brings it more home and more tangible. How is technology used for smart cities? So first, SelleGov through leading cities. Yes. 36:59 It connects companies like ours with municipalities to tackle urban challenges. So for us, it's infrastructure, security, and sustainability. So we were a finalist in leading cities global competition back in 2021. And we've worked through them. You know, we've been able to work with city leaders to secure IOT systems and critical infrastructure. 37:28 And quick shout out to Michael Lake. Okay. He's the founder of Leading Cities, amazing guy. Another keep in touch, answer the email quickly person. He's based in Boston, but he's built a very supportive ecosystem. So shout out to Michael Lake. But as a part of this program, 37:56 We're offering smart cities our enhanced quantum vulnerability assessment. And this is to help the smart city leaders identify areas that need better quantum protections now. We've just had a session on November the 11th, Veterans Day. And the second one is coming up December the 5th. So you. 38:24 If you're a smart city leader or see so small, medium, large enterprise, no matter what market you in, you're in, definitely tap in. You can register for it on the leading city's website or on our website at Infotron.net. Yeah, that's on December 9, 2024 at 1pm. Is that Eastern? December 5th. December 5th? No, it's the 9th, because I have it here. And that's my cousin's birthday. So yeah, it's December 9th. 38:53 Did you get to influence those dates? Yeah. So let's jump into your startup. You've taken in very little dilutive funding. How much money have you raised to date? And how have you, what is the next phase, right? In terms of outreach for fundraising. So we've raised 120K and that was through Techstars, LA Space. 39:23 Still counting. I do not take a salary. I could take one, but I'm just, it's the long game for me. And I still consult. Don't let these people tell you not to quit your job and be an entrepreneur. Don't let people do that. Especially if you have a family. Don't let these people, don't let these people try to guilt you or shame you because you still have a job while you're building your startup. Don't let, don't do it. 39:53 Because I do have a company that I started called Right Tech Solutions and we still, that's why I said I still feel like I'm in the Air Force because I still consult them. So I can, you know, the revenue that we do and we've hit 500K in revenue. So you know, I could easily take a salary, right? But I just, it's the long game for me. It's the global expansion. 40:22 um, you know, more IP and patents, uh, protections, right? Because we do have global count clients. And, um, one of the things that I wanted to make sure of before we even took on the clients was that we had legal backing there. So IP trademarks, um, at least patent, at least the application is pending, but you know, like I want to, I want to, I want it to at least have that. And we have great attorneys. Um, shout out to Malika Tyson. 40:52 and Matthew and Dorian who have, they took over because I had a, I had an attorney, IP attorney that would, had her own boutique firm and then she had to go back, you know, she just couldn't do the entrepreneurship, it's not for everybody, but we still stay in contact as well. But she introduced me to McAndrews, they're based out of Chicago. 41:20 And they are the legal team for Impletron. I always tell them that when we're on calls, like you are the legal team. Like, yeah, anything that I need from them legal, legal wise, they do it. I literally just sent a partnership NDA over to Malekka this morning and she just sent it back to me. So like, that's not IP and trademark, right? But they do, they do it. And I always tell them how much I appreciate them because... 41:49 IP and trademarks are not free and they're not inexpensive. So, and then imagine, you know, we have one pending now in Japan. We just got one in Canada. So yeah, like it's expensive, you know, it's expensive. So a lot of the funding that we get now is going to be allocated to pay them, you know, even though they work with us. But it's going to be paying them. 42:18 doing some iterations, we have a partnership where there's some hardware that's gonna be involved. We're definitely tapping into the hardware. So we'll be forging our way there because people like things they can touch. SaaS isn't necessarily something that you can touch, although put it into a platform makes it a little bit more tangible for people, visual at least. So in the- 42:48 Yeah, I mean, hardware has always been a part of the vision. FBGAs, we have another colleague of mine, he has developed a cryptocurrency mining machine, and it leverages quantum. So it's mining at exponential speeds, right? Because generally what quantum does is speeds things up. It speeds exactly, in simplified terms. 43:18 Definitely still going after Sivers traditional government contracts globally. We participated in Fintech down in the Bahamas last October. Cause we are in the Fintech space and there's a lot of similarities between Fintech and Space Tech. Because when you're talking about fault zeros and being able to detect anomalies. 43:46 both of those markets need that and they need it quick. So we've been able to, yeah, like we've been able to leverage some of the things that we're learning in both of those for each other. So we've been able to participate in some conferences. We actually getting ready to go to Barbados in January for Fintech Islands, I'll be speaking about 44:14 the kind of the intersection of the quantum age and what's coming in respect to the fintech space, cryptocurrency, web three, traditional finance and AI, because we do leverage AI. And we've been in the AI space, Impletron has been in the AI space from the beginning. One of our advisors is an AI evangelist at AWS. I did say her name earlier on this podcast, but. 44:42 She's amazing. She's a Georgia Tech grad. We do have a few Georgia Tech people on the team, but she's amazing. And I'm able to tap her. I've been able to tap her because she was one of the Kit founders. So I've been able to tap her about AI and machine learning very early on. So all of the LLMs and the SLMs that everybody's kind of talking about, we've been doing. 45:11 Like even as small as we are, we've been. 45:16 Yeah, so, Chasity, how can my listeners contact or get information about Infotron? So, yeah, of course the website. So, infiltron.net. You can follow us on all of our socials at Infotron Software Suite. It might be, I think on Twitter is Infotron app. We wanted to keep it short. 45:41 And then, or you can email us at mfultronapp at gmail.com. And I know people are gonna be like, why you use Gmail? That's another filter. And that's an email that everybody on the team can look at and not be bombarded with, cause spam and it's just, everybody has their own email address, but. So you probably, it's a test environment for all of you. 46:09 beautiful quantum encryption that you're working on. Yes. And that's it all. One better way to start. Yeah, Gmail, right? Google knows a lot more about us than we'd like them to. Oh, Google knows everything. That's tough. Even when you turn location off. Oh, Instagram. I just posted something about Instagram. So Instagram's new. They just updated their policy maybe a month ago, maybe. 46:38 Okay. Whether you want to or not, they now have access to your photos, your GPS location, everything even if you say no, even if you turn it off, they still contract. 47:00 Just putting it out there guys. Yeah. So if you do platform. So there's cause to the platform. Right? Yes. Thank you. All right. We're coming down to the section of the podcast where I like to ask each of my guests what the following three words mean to you. Because this is what I do with my consulting business. 47:24 In addition to my podcast, I work with founders that are really building resilient, purpose-driven and scalable businesses. What's resilience mean to you, Chasity? Man, that's a word that I use. Uh, I mean, I'm, I mean, you gotta think about it. I'm black trying to raise money. It's hard for black people to raise money on top of that. I've been, you know, um, I've come face to face with people that didn't believe that I wrote my own patents. Like. 47:53 you know, as if black people didn't invent a lot of things, like that we still use today. Like, come on. I mean, it's just the truth. Resilience. Resilience for me is bending, but never breaking. Bending, but never breaking. Yeah. It's about, you know, adapting to challenges. I just mentioned some and facing them. Like you can't, you can't, and I'm about to sound 48:23 run from the pain, you gotta run towards it. So you can come out stronger on the other side. And it's not necessarily about survival, it's transformation. That's transformation. It's transformation. And that transformation is preparing you for what's next. And you'll be standing taller than you were before. Amazing, thank you. Purpose-driven, what's a purpose-driven? 48:53 Enterprises or? Yeah. I'm a visionary. So like, there's a lot of founders that I've met. If I have the opportunity to get close to them or kind of hear them speak about what they're building to include myself, because I do talk to myself about the things that I'm building. I counsel myself. I'm sure my ancestors are around me. 49:23 Purpose is, it should be intentional. I think that it's kind of interchangeable for me. But in the context of the question that you asked on purpose driven enterprise, so it's the heartbeat in what we build here at Infotron. I can definitely say that. It's creating meaningful solutions that solve real problems. And in solving those real problems, 49:52 you're still staying true to the mission. I still bring the aspect of the military into Infiltron. We are mission focused. We have fun. We do all the fun things, right? Because again, that cultivates innovation too. And it keeps it spicy. You need to let things be spicy because in a regular deglar cybersecurity job, you're probably bored. Like. 50:19 I mean, let's just be real. Like you're probably bored. You're probably looking at Excel spreadsheets and creating a report by hand from that. Like it's boring. Like, but you know, it's also making moves that matter. And it's solving problems that for me leave a legacy and just never losing sight of why we started in the first place. 50:48 So never lives in sight. Excellent. What about scalable? So how does- That's one of those BC's favorite words. That's right. Because that's what they want to see. How will you scale? That's right. I mean, I'm an investor too guys. Don't get it twisted. Like, I think that was a question that I did ask with one of the investors I had. Like, how are you going to get over that challenge? Like, before I give you this money. 51:18 Scalable. So growth, like we can think about growth in so many different ways, like growth, personal growth, because if you embark on the entrepreneur trick, you are going to be, and need to be open to growth. To me, entrepreneurship is a spiritual journey. Beautiful. 51:45 about the Southern Baptist roots, but I'm not spiritual. I'm a yoga, meditating, put my feet in the sand, grass grounding person nowadays, but still bringing that element of praying. And it's all the same to me. They just changed the name of God, right? Just that's my perspective, but growth isn't just about getting. 52:14 bigger. It's about getting better. And me speaking about the personal aspect, that is what growth is. It might not feel good, you know, while it's happening. But, you know, once you get through it and you can get in a reflective mindset and look back with what you just came through and be grateful, like find gratitude in it, you know. 52:43 That's how I look at growth. It's expanding mindfully and staying grounded in your values and making sure that every step that you take going forward strengthens the foundation that you've already built. And it's... 53:11 Like I said, it's moving with intention. And while you're moving with intention, you're also preserving the quality and the vision that define you. Which goes back to purpose-driven. Yes, thank you. Last question, Chasity. Did you have fun in the sandbox? Oh yeah, I mean, it's you. You know, we already have a great rapport. 53:38 I'll say this, one of my favorite memories of you is when you brought Ty to the table to kind of see if they were, could invest in Infiltron and it was too early. But we had to sign an NDA, it was some type of contract, but it was during Mercury retrograde. You said it before I said it, I was like, I wonder if she's onto this type. 54:05 Cause I wasn't going to sign it. I was going to try to delay it as much as possible, but you're like, no, let's wait, let's wait. So after Mercer, that's your great. Well, I was like, oh, these are this. She's my people. And I was like, and I think I responded like, let's wait five days. So it is no, it's like clear. So, um, that's a little fighter for me with you. Oh, I love it. I love it. Generally hear that in business. No, no. 54:32 And the Founder Sandbox again is a pretty eclectic podcast, bringing in deep tech founders like Chasity Wright that are on the frontier, bringing in what the future, will, it's the future's here. It's here. That's right. So to my listeners, if you like this episode with Chasity Wright, CEO and founder of Infiltron, sign up for the monthly release of 55:01 this podcast where founders, business owners, corporate directors, and professional service providers share their own experiences on building with strong governance, a resilient, scalable, and purpose-driven company to make profits for good. So signing off for this month, thank you, Chasity. Thank you, Brenda, so much. I hope to see you soon.  

On today's episode, we discuss the ways our faith has changed as we've grown in discipleship and justice work. Our spiritual practices, as well as our relationships with church, God, and the non-Christian world have all transformed over time, sometimes in surprising ways that would have made us uncomfortable in our earlier years as followers of Jesus. It's a personal and instructive conversation on how to grow up with Jesus that we know will be helpful for a lot of people. Plus, after that conversation we get into the war in Sudan and why it's an important topic for us to learn about and engage with.Mentioned in the episode:-            The episode of the Movement Memos podcast about the war in Sudan-            The link to donate to the Sudan Solidarity Collective via PayPalCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jonathan Walton: I'm trying to live in the reality that God actually loves me and he actually loves other people, and that's just true. And to live in that quote- unquote, belovedness is really, really, really difficult in a extractivist, culturally colonized, post-plantation, capitalistic society.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's really, really hard when every single thing that I was raised to do goes against, just receiving anything.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: This week we have a great conversation. There's no guest this week, it's just Jonathan and I. And we are actually going to be talking about something that we originally were gonna talk to Lisa about in the last episode, but we ran out of time [laughter]. And we thought it would be, actually it was worth taking the time to talk about this in a full episode format. And the topic is basically this, as people grow not just normally in their faith, but also in the kind of work that we're doing, resisting the idols of America and confronting injustice and that sort of thing in their faith, your personal spiritual life tends to change [laughter], to put it mildly. And we wanted to talk about that.It's something that we don't necessarily hear a lot of people talking about as much and I think it's something that people are kind of concerned about. Like it's in the back of people's heads when they start to dive into these justice issues. It's something that I think conservative Christianity has put in the back of your heads [laughs], like your personal walk with Jesus, or your something like that is going to falter if you stray down this road. And so we wanna talk about how things have changed with us, and be as open and honest about that as possible, with our spiritual practices, with our relationship with God, with our relationship with church and kind of the world outside.And then we're gonna get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week, we will be talking about a really fascinating and informative podcast on the war that is currently happening in Sudan that has been going on for about a year and a half. If you don't know a lot about that war, or if you just want some more insight into what's going on there, please stay tuned for that. It'll be an interesting conversation, for sure. So we're going to get into all of that in a minute. I think this is gonna be a really fruitful and helpful conversation for a lot of people. Before we jump in though, Jonathan,Jonathan Walton: Hey friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and everything we do at KTF Press. We're creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics and culture and help you seek Jesus and confront injustice, that's so desperately needed today. We're resisting the idols of the American church by elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who might narrow it to sin and salvation or some other small, little box. Jesus' gospel is bigger than that. The two of us have a lot of experience [laughs] doing this in community and individually.We've been friends for a good long time, and so I hope that you can come to us and trust us for good conversation, dialogue and prayerful, deliberate action. So become a paid subscriber, and get all the bonus episodes to this show, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats. You can comment on posts and a lot more. So again, go to KTFPress.com, join us and become a paid subscriber. And if you really wanna double down, become a founding member. Thanks, y'all.Sy Hoekstra: You get a free book if you're a founding member. So that's…Jonathan Walton: You do get a free book.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Because we publish books too. I guess we didn't… we have to tell people that.Jonathan Walton: That's true.Sy Hoekstra: If you're listening, if this is your first episode, you didn't know that. We've published a couple of books.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Alright Jonathan, let's dive in. Let's talk about, as you have grown over the past however many years since you've been doing this kind of work, which for you is what now, 15? No, almost 15.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: More than 15. It's more than 15 years.Jonathan Walton: It's more than 15. It'd probably be like… I was trying to reflect on this. I think I seriously stepped into this stuff in 2005 when I wrote that first poem about child soldiers and sex trafficking victims and was like, “I wanna do this, because Jesus loves me, and Jesus loves all people.” And so yeah, almost 20 years.Sy Hoekstra: Was that “Decisions?” Is that the poem?Jonathan Walton: I think it was actually “Invisible Children.” That poem.Sy Hoekstra: Okay. Literally because of the documentary Invisible Children.Jonathan Walton: Yes. That was the first advocacy poem that I wrote.Sy Hoekstra: So since then, how have your individual spiritual practices changed your scripture reading, that sort of thing? The kind of thing that at one point we might have called our quiet time, or our daily whatever. Where are you at?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Absolutely. So I do not have daily quiet times. How do I explain this? When the Psalms say, “write the words of God on your hearts that you might not sin against him,” I think with all of us, it's kind of like building a habit. So I read a lot of scripture when I was a kid. I read a lot of scripture when I was a college student. And I think it was because I literally needed flesh and bones on just the air of my faith. And I think literally sitting there and listening to sermons for hours as I go about my day in my room and not study in college, or me and my brother would do [laughs] these weird things because we lived in the South and had nothing to do on this 30-acre farm, is we memorized the entire Charlton Heston film, The Ten Commandments.So me and my brother literally memorized the entire six hour epic that is The Ten Commandments. And so I just had this desire, and I think habit of just like memorizing and learning about God because the context that you're in. And so I think that there was a season in my life where sitting in the word of God was just a regular practice. And now I would say, just to overtake scripture, scripture is for me a process of recall and reflection. Like I have to give a talk next week on racism and racial reconciliation and justice. And if you had said to me, “Jonathan, what passage are you gonna speak from?” Like, because I've studied Genesis 1, because I've studied Isaiah 61, because I've studied Isaiah 58, because I've leaned into John 4, because I'm leaning in to Luke 4, I can grab from any of these places because it's almost like riding a bike in that way. I don't have to ride a bike every day to know how to ride a bike.And so I think if you're sitting there thinking to yourself, “I don't do a daily quiet time,” I don't know that you are negatively impacted. I know that you may be shaped differently, but we don't lose God, just like we don't lose the knowledge of something in that way. So I think Scripture for me has become more of a remembering and reflective process, rather than an active like, “Oh man, I need to know more.” And I think if we do scripture prayer, so let's talk about prayer, liturgy has taken on a more significant part of my life.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Partially because I've stepped out of the, “let's prioritize this as better” box. So when I grew up in the South, I was like, oh, I go to a Black southern Baptist church, not a Southern Baptist Church. Let's be clear about that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Spontaneous worship was quote- unquote, the best in my mind. Then I come to InterVarsity and more quote- unquote, evangelical spaces, and then it's like, well, popcorn prayer. Every single person goes individually and we all listen and try not to fall asleep.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And then I go to another place and it's like the quote- unquote, warrior prayer. Like this lion's war prayer. Everybody's praying at once. And that was amazing.Sy Hoekstra: Charismatic.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it was amazing, but overwhelming. And I would go to these places and say, oh, one is better than the other, when in reality, these are just expressions of God's faithfulness to different parts of his body. And so I think the season I'm in now, I've leaned into the prayer without ceasing, where it's like I am in conversation with God. I can be in prayer just going about my every day, similar to scripture with the riding the bike thing. These are things that I've marinated in, and so I'm riding the bike all day. I might get on the bike in the morning, I might not, but God is an active part of my day. And so I think the last thing just about church and preaching. This is hard [laughter].And some people might get upset with this, but church has taken, the institution; going to, sitting in. That's probably the last thing that I'm still processing. My children don't want to go to church some days, and I have a high value for that. And I have to ask myself, why do I have that high of a value? And Maia asked me, because she was crying, she didn't wanna go to church. She said, “Why do you wanna go?” And I told her, I said, “Maia, sometimes I have a really hard week, and I go to hang out with other believers because they encourage me that God is faithful and I can make it through.” And I said, “Some weeks are good for me, and then I go to church, and someone may be having a poor week, and then I'm able to encourage them to make it through and center ourselves on Jesus.”And I said, “In that way…” I didn't say this this way, but we bear one another's burdens with love. We are able to come alongside each other. And she didn't get it, and that's fine, she's eight.Sy Hoekstra: [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But I recognize that that's actually what I'm looking for when I go to church. And so if that's what I'm looking for, how can I have that in other spaces that my family also feels closer to God as well, so that we can grow together in that way? So I've stopped expecting the pastor to serve me a platter of spiritual goodies every week. [laughter] I've stop expecting this community in some way to be the buffet from which I gather my spiritual authority and intimacy with God. And that didn't used to be the case. It was like, “I got to go to church or I'm wrong. I got to be in the building, or something's messed up with my faith. I might be falling away.” And that's just not true, because I don't forget how to ride a bike. Like it's just not a thing.So, yeah, I would say those big three things of prayer, scripture and going to church have changed. And later we could talk about justice stuff, but those things around just our relationship with God have changed for me.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's funny you said the thing that was a big deal to you, the second one was about like the spontaneous worship is the best, or this kind of prayer is the best or whatever. And that it's just so cultural and stuff because I never had any of those.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I was like it's whatever. Nobody taught me that one… maybe somebody tried to, but it never got really inculcated in me that one kind of prayer or something was better than the other. But the daily scripture reading thing was so… Like you saying, “I don't read scripture every day,” there's still some little part of me that feels like, “Ooh, should he say that?” [laughter]Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right, right.Sy Hoekstra: And it really just depends on where you grow up. Because a funny thing, like part of the scripture thing for me is, at some point I realized, I was like, “Hey, wait a minute [laughs], for the overwhelming majority of Christians who have ever lived, they A, could not read…”Jonathan Walton: [laughter] Right.Sy Hoekstra: “…and B, did not have access to the printed word.” The only time they were getting scripture was at mass on Sunday. And it's just one of those things where it's an enormous privilege, and we should, I'm not saying take it for granted, but it's something that has not only been not necessary for discipleship, but literally impossible for [laughter] most Christians who have ever lived. It's just an enormous privilege that we treat like a necessity or we treat like an imperative. And the distinction between those two things can be subtle, but it's real. They're not the same thing [laughter].Jonathan Walton: True.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so for me, I've talked about this in one of the bonus episodes we did, but I'll make a slightly different point about it, which is, I used to, like you sort of alluded to, I used to come at daily scripture reading and prayer and everything from a place of deep anxiety. Constantly trying to stay up on whatever I had decided was the requirement for the day, and then falling behind and becoming anxious about it, and just getting on this treadmill of trying to catch up and then being anxious again. And a funny thing happened when I got into, as we were talking about on our recent subscriber call, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality [laughs] and learned about that anxiety and where it was coming from, and tried to change my relationship to it, and it decreased a lot, I realized when the anxiety went away I started to feel like my love for or even just my care for God, was going away.Jonathan Walton: Huh.Sy Hoekstra: Like if I wasn't anxious that I was reading scripture every day, it's kind of like what I just said, like there's still some part of me that feels like ugh [laughter]. If I wasn't anxious, then I didn't love God, which is kind of dark.Jonathan Walton: It is. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You know what I mean? It's like putting yourself in a sort of abusive relationship with God and saying, “If you don't keep up with me, then I'm gonna punish you in some way,” or something negative is gonna happen. It was never entirely clear what negative thing was gonna happen to me.Jonathan Walton: Just a threat. Just a threat.Sy Hoekstra: That something was bad. I was gonna backslide in some way. So, yeah, but the amount of time, like on a daily basis, that I spend praying or reading scripture has also decreased, and then anxiety went away. And then I had to get used to the anxiety not being there and being like, “Hey, that's okay. This is actually a reflection of the fact that I now on a much more embodied level, understand that God loves and accepts me.” [laughter] That's a good thing.Jonathan Walton: That is a great thing. Yes, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: Another big thing for me was, this is my change with regard to scripture, is letting the Bible be what the Bible says that it is, as opposed to what the spiritual authorities in my life told me that it was supposed to be. And so that's things like, I had a really interesting experience where I went through this thing called the Academy of Christian Thought. There was this three-year read-through-the-Bible program. It was run by this scholar named Ron Choong, a Malaysian guy who's really incredible. But one of the things he talked about was the idea that every word of the Bible is literally true. And he would go through it and he would say, “Okay, so there are these stories that Jesus tells, that when he tells them, like the parables.Like say, The Good Samaritan or whatever. We understand that Jesus is telling a story here, and whether or not the story itself is true doesn't matter. He's making a point.” It's a sermon illustration, effectively. And Jesus never claims that the stories are true. We're all fine with that. We're not saying if the guy didn't actually get beat up on the road to Jericho, then the Bible's integrity is in question. And he was like, “Okay, so how about the book of Jonah?” He's like, Take the whole thing with the fish and the spending three days in the belly of a fish, which seems scientifically impossible, and then you get… like without dying, whatever. It could be a miracle. But does the Bible ever actually say, does the book of Jonah ever actually say, “The following is a true story?” The answer is, no, it doesn't [laughter].And can you still learn all the same lessons about faith and everything from the book of Jonah if it's not true, like the parable of The Good Samaritan or any other parables Jesus tells? Yes, you can.Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: So does it really matter [laughs] whether the story in the book of Jonah is true? No, it does not. It affects nothing [laughter]. And by acknowledging that, you're just letting the Bible be what it is, which is, it's here's a story. It just told you a story, and whether or not it was true or not is not a point that the Bible makes, and therefore is not a point that matters.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] And so there were a lot of just simple things like that. He was like, The book of Revelation, you do not have to have a perfect understanding of what every twist and turn in that bizarre apocalyptic dream meant. You don't. You don't you don't have to have it. Because the Bible never tells you that you had to have it [laughter]. It just says, “Here's a dream from John,” and then it tells you a bunch of stuff that happened [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. It's true.Sy Hoekstra: And so it's like there was a lot of that that I thought was extremely helpful and allowed me to then use my mind. And then people would come back with the verse in 2 Timothy, “All scripture is God breathed,” and et cetera, et cetera. And [laughs] Ron would just be like, “That was literally written at a time when the New Testament was not canonized, and half of it was not even written yet.” [laughs] So it's like, what scripture is God breathed, you know what I mean? [laughter And also, does God breathed or trustworthy for instruction, does that mean the book of Jonah's literally true? No. [laughter] Like letting the Bible be what the Bible is was important to me, and understanding…We talked in that episode with Mako Nagasawa about how sometimes translations of the Bible differ from each other in significant ways, and we picked which one we followed, and that's just a reality [laughs]. And you can still have a very high view of the authority of Scripture, it can still guide your life, it can still be an authority, it can be all those things, and you can acknowledge realities, and your faith doesn't fall apart. That was a big one for me [laughs]. A lot of that also has to do with letting go of the need to have everything under control in a perfect little box.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is a very… was just a real White way of thinking about it to be frank [laughs]. We must have our systematic theology, and everything must be clear and tied up neatly. So the last thing for me, I think, is just knowing that the way that God speaks to people changes over time. And so like I know there are ways that I could be going back and trying to find the things about my early faith that were really exciting and new and gave me these big spiritual highs, and a lot of those things just don't happen anymore. And I see that as I get older, there are so many people I know like that. And there are so many, there's such a range of reactions to that from people who are like, some people are totally comfortable with the fact that God changes how he talks to people over time.And that even happens in the Bible. People hear from God in different ways, in new ways. And there are some people who are like, can lose their faith over that. They can panic, and it's like, “I'm not hearing God the way that I heard got at one point,” and I guess the possibility of change is not there [laughs]. And so it's like, if I'm not getting that same experience, then something has gone terribly wrong or whatever, and I need to get back there. I would just really encourage people to drop that way of thinking [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: It is okay if your relationship with God changes, the way that you communicate with God changes.Jonathan Walton: There's nothing healthy about a plant that stays the same size over year's time.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly.Jonathan Walton: Man.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan, you talked about this one a little bit already, but I wanted to talk about our relationships with churches and the institutions of churches. Did you have more to say on that, or was…?Jonathan Walton: Well, yeah. I think something that is intriguing to me, and I dabble in thread and Facebook debates sometimes just to ask questions.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And just as an example, and friends, I again, in the just modeling the growth and change and willingness to ponder in a way that doesn't shake my salvation, I'm gonna try to model that. And so a question that came up for me yesterday while I was on threads, there's a man named Eugene Kim, who I've just followed for a little while.Sy Hoekstra: He's a pastor, right?Jonathan Walton: He was a pastor, and he is a pastor now, but they just launched this thing called the Wild Fig organization. And so essentially, they're trying to decentralize the church and say, there are lots of people who follow Jesus and wanna organize in ways that are transformative and help for them in their walks with God. And we just need to figure out a different way of credentialing people than getting folks organized around this man who we believe is God named Jesus.” And there's another thing like this out in Seattle called Dinner Church, where a church sold their building, and they have 25 dinner churches where people come to church to have dinner, and they just eat and talk about God, almost like they did in Acts. Whoopitty.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And so that's what they're doing, and they're actually putting pastors in these house churches just to be present at these dinner churches. And so there are people who would say, “No, we cannot do that.” Like, I remember sitting down with a pastor in New York City who was just like, “Jonathan, I don't think that you should do campus ministry, because it should be done in the church.” And I was like, “Oh, well, I think this meeting is over.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: “And I hope you pay for this food.” But all that to say it's like, that was one conversation. Another conversation was like, “If you do that, what about the traditions of the church?” All of these things. And I'm like, I hear you on the tradition, but why are we choosing to model some things from Acts and then saying other things we can't do anymore? Seems like the Great Commission commissioned all people to baptize. Seems like the Great Commission commissioned all people to… like 2 Corinthians and the model about how to take communion. I don't see where that says I can't do that at home, because they were done in homes. So all of this. Some people say that's great, some people say you can't do that.But when I was specifically looking at the Wild Fig network yesterday in this threads conversation, someone said, “You're doing a heretical thing, you're breaking off. And if you wanna join anything, just go back to the Catholic Church, because that is where it all began.” And I thought to myself, and this is a genuine question, and I haven't seen his response yet, but I said, “Did Jesus come to build the Catholic Church?” There may be, very well be an argument for that that I'm not aware of because I'm not Catholic. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, there definitely is [laughs].Jonathan Walton: There definitely is [laughter]. And so I am wondering what that means, as someone downstream of colonization, abuse, violence and oppression, coupled with the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, and every other Western faith, political faction that decided to join themselves on the colonialist project, I wonder if Jesus came to build the Catholic Church. And there's 1500 years of arguing about that and making that case to be true. At the same time, I'm like, 1 Corinthians one, when Paul is writing to the church at Corinth, he says, “Some might be for Paul, some might be for Cephas, which is Peter. Some might be for Apollos, but the reality is, we all need to be for Jesus.”So if this person is making an argument against pastor Eugene Kim, I'm like, “Why are you saying he can't go do that? What's the goal?” Because if Eugene goes and baptizes a thousand people, and all these people come to faith and it's an amazing thing, what is the loss for the kingdom? You know what I mean?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Well, so here's the loss. I still don't think this is correct, but the loss from the Catholic perspective is you only can experience the fullness of the revelation of the Spirit of God within the Catholic Church. That is where it happens, and it happens nowhere else, and it cannot happen anywhere else.Jonathan Walton: Now see, okay, this is where I would push back ridiculously hard.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, me too, but yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and using Peter, Peter in Acts chapter 10 has a very specific way that he thinks the Spirit of God is being revealed. And God blows that wide open first with a vision for him. The sheet comes down, look at this three times, three times, three times. Then the same thing for Cornelius. And so if we try to limit the spirit or movement of God, we will fail. So why do that [laughs]? There's so many points in scripture where God is breaking through in ways that we cannot fathom or recognize.Sy Hoekstra: Amen to that.Jonathan Walton: And so, I think the thing about the church, I'm like, it's evolving for me, not in the Darwin way, but just like a development. Because to be like, “Oh, evolution,” because we have these wrong conflations in our brain. But my faith is evolving, but I'm not moving farther away from Jesus, and that includes the church. Because similar to you, I would say I am closer to Jesus than I was when I was 17 years old… 16 when I got thrown across the parking lot on a motorcycle, or 19 years old when Ashley told me to follow… Ashley Byrd, me and Sy's staff worker for InterVarsity, invited me to follow Jesus. I'm still close, I'm closer to Jesus than I was then, and I've been a part of very different churches and all those things.So my relationship with God is predicated on my adoption into the capital “C” Church, not the specific church on my block in my neighborhood, or where I gather with folks. And so I'm grateful that the rapture catches all of us and not just insert your denomination here.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So for me, I am less engaged than I used to be, but that's because what I used to do was let Christian community and Christian programming activity take up the vast majority of my free time, because I thought we had something to prove as a community. You know what I mean? Like, I thought you had to be, it's a little bit vague what I thought I think, or a little bit blurry to me now. But it was something along the lines of, some interpretation of the idea that we're the hands and feet of Jesus, or we are here to testify to him and his goodness as a community. That meant that you had to be super involved in your community. You had to be something to prove the worthiness of God, basically.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is completely the opposite of what I now think, which is that no matter what your community is, the fact that God loves you is the proof of the worthiness of God [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to prove nothing. Similar to my quiet times and everything, it took a lot of the pressure off of my need to be involved in religious activity, and therefore it decreased, but not in like a I'm leaving the church way, just in what I think is a healthy way [laughs]. I am now very suspicious if I go to a church and the consistent thing that they are telling people to do in terms of discipleship is just get more involved in that church's programming. As opposed to being something in their neighborhood, or trying to turn outwards in some significant way. That, to me, is a big ol' red flag. I'm constantly now thinking about what is reasonable to expect of a church, versus what I would have want a church to ideally be.I think this happens to everyone as they grow up a little bit, is you start to see the inner workings of a church and how just very ordinary and sometimes petty and gross, it can be.Jonathan Walton: [laughter] Ordinary, petty and gross.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's just another fallen institution [laughs]. And people have all their own little individual problems, and some of those problems are big and some of them are small. And it's just not that different than any other organization. And that is disappointing if you think it's supposed to be this shining beacon on a hill, which is actually a metaphor for the kingdom of God, and not your individual neighborhood's church [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes, yes.Sy Hoekstra: Scripturally speaking. I think about that balance more, like what can I reasonably expect versus what would I ideally want this institution to be? And from what I've talked to, like Christians who are much older than me, that never changes. That's the mature way to go about [laughter] looking at a church. You just, you have to do it that way, and not just think of the church as this thing that needs to be something that is like this shining example to the entire world of how to do or be something. And this is especially true in a context where we have the idols of empire built in. I have to go to my church in New York City in 2024 and I have to recognize this is a culture that is filled with greed and self-interest.And so odds are, this church is also going to be filled with greed and self-interest. So what can I reasonably expect from this church [laughter]? That's part of it. And again, it's just reality. It's sad. It's a thing that I had to work through emotionally. But it is also a reality that you have to come to terms with.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: I'm much more ready to walk out of a church when I hear nonsense than I used to be [laughter].Jonathan Walton: I'm just willing to go. Thanks.Sy Hoekstra: Which I don't necessarily… that doesn't even mean like leave the community and turn my back on everyone. I just mean if I hear some nonsense from the pastor, I can go home, and that's okay [laughter]. And I've done that a few times. I had this one pastor a while back who just got on a streak. I don't know what happened, man, but it was this one month where at maybe two or three of the sermons he just said some stuff that was super ableist. I don't know what happened. He never even talked about people with disabilities before, and all of a sudden it's like, got to bring disabled people up all the time. You got to say really nonsense, insensitive, ridiculous stuff.And there was one time I just left. I was like, “I'm gonna go to the bathroom.” And then I came out of the bathroom and I was like, “Actually, I'm not going back in there.”Jonathan Walton: [laughter] Right. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I just remember looking at the door back into the service and the door to leave the building, and the choice could not have been clearer [laughter]. It was like a hundred percent of me wants to go this way, zero percent of me wants to go that way.Jonathan Walton: Brunch with Jesus. I'm gonna leave now. Yeah, that makes sense.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Last question. How have things changed between you and the rest of the world [laughs]? The people outside of the church? How are you thinking differently? I'm sure there's a lot to say here, but…Jonathan Walton: Lord have mercy. Okay, so I can be friends with non-Christians…Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Not every woman in the world, their primary relationship to me is I shouldn't sleep with them.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I see.Jonathan Walton: So either this woman is my wife or a temptation. Like that…Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I got you.Jonathan Walton: This is a human being made in the image of God that I am incomplete without on this side of heaven [laughs]. Like God desires shalom between me and her or them. It's a group. Also, it's very possible to be generous to people, and if it doesn't go against my taxes, it's still a great thing to give to. Friends, there's so much crap in that, and I wanted to say the other word.Sy Hoekstra: Churches make a big deal out of that your gift here will be tax deductible or whatever [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And institutional giving or whatever, and you're just like, “No, actually, I can tithe to the guy on the corner who needs a sandwich.”Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. I also think that, along with the every, I can be friends with non-Christians, and this is still actually hard for me, is I can learn from people that don't believe in Jesus the same way I do.Sy Hoekstra: Is it hard for you? Because I think sometimes, like we were talking about Valarie Kaur the other day, the seek prophet who says amazing things and you were…Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes, yes. So here's what I mean by that. And I think my wife is the one who challenges me on this.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: It's very different to learn from someone online and through their books, but she said, “Jonathan, when you have relationships with people, intimate relationships with them,” she said, “It doesn't register for me as you're talking with them, Jonathan, that you want to learn from them.” And I'll also be really honest, my pastor told me this. When I first met him, he invited one of his friends over, and we wanted to have this conversation. And I asked him, I said, “What was that like for you?” And he said, “Well, it seemed like you were not interested in getting to know us. You just wanted to know what we thought about these things.” And that to me, is something that I'm like, oh.I believed, past tense, and I'm still working through that, I think my relationship with God is based upon my utility to people around me, and if I'm not useful, then I'm not valuable. And if I believe it about myself, I'm gonna reflect that outwards.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so, something that bothers me that I'm still working through is, how can I be in relationships with people and learn from them, and not require them to change or grow in some way or become or believe like me, those things would probably be the biggest, but that last one is probably… I mean, all of those I'm still working through, but that last one is the most potent right now as I try to make friends and be in community with people. What about you? Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, the friends with non-Christians thing is funny to me. The specific thing for me is that I'm not trying to, it's similar, I'm not trying to convert and change everybody. There was a while when I was young kind of late teens or early 20s, where I literally thought just every interaction I had with a non-Christian had to be toward the end of making them a Christian at some point.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And I now realize that ensuring the salvation of anyone, including myself, not my job [laughs]. No one ever said that was my job in the Bible, at least. And my job is to talk about the truth, like talk about what has happened in my life, but that's all I got to do. Just talk about it [laughs]. I got to testify to the truth, and that does not mean that I need any individual person ever changes as a result [laughter]. That is not part of my job. I want people to know Jesus, but that's different than thinking that everything I do must be toward some end of like, honestly kind of manipulating people into [laughs] that, which is the constant evangelical tendency, hell being the biggest manipulator. “Do this or you will be tortured forever,” and framing it that way.We're constantly framing things in terms of manipulating people to just be one of us. I don't do that anymore. Thank goodness [laughs]. And stuff like that that makes me, I look back and I'm always like, I don't think that anything I was involved in actually meets the definition of a cult. But there was some cult-y aspects of it, for sure [laughs]. There was some stuff in there that was [laughs]9 weird in terms of how you related to other people. I'm much less suspicious to the rest of the world. I don't think the rest of the world, kind of like you said about women, just anybody in general, isn't trying to tempt me out of something or send me down a wrong road, which then allows me to enjoy, not just learning from people like you said, but also just beauty and joy in places that I couldn't, I wasn't allowed to find it before.A result of all that is people are no longer projects to me. This is all very similar to what you said, actually. So I think those are my main ones. And I said the last thing was the last question, but I actually did have one more question written down here. Do you wanna [laughter] go through that one too, or no?Jonathan Walton: I mean, I think we've talked about this a lot where it's like, your last question being, how has my relationship and view of God changed?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And what I would say is… and you said this way back in the podcast already. I'm trying to live in the reality that God actually loves me and he actually loves other people, and that's just true. And that can be my posture bent orientation to the world at all times. And to live in that quote- unquote, belovedness is really, really, really difficult in a extractivist, culturally colonized, post-plantation, capitalistic society.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's really, really hard when every single thing that I was raised to do goes against just receiving anything.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I mean, that's why the grace of God is confounding. But all that to say, I think I'm trying to live in that. And I think teaching my children that has taught me that more than anything.Sy Hoekstra: Early on in my faith, one of the seeds that I think God planted really early on was, and I've talked about this before. I had a lot of trouble with the idea of hell when I was considering following Jesus. And the way that that got resolved for me was to stop, I stopped asking questions about the unfairness of the idea of hell, because I came to trust Jesus as a person and say, “Whatever thing is going on there with these problems, with the unfairness of hell that I have, Jesus did something to himself. God did something to himself in the form of the cross that was also extremely unfair [laughs], actively harmed himself in order to get us to trust him.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Actively harmed himself, is maybe a weird way to put it. Like, lived in such solidarity with us as humans, and especially as oppressed and vulnerable humans, that he died and had some terrible spiritual fate that people characterize in different ways, depending on what denomination you're from or whatever, happened to him [laughs]. And that then makes me trust him and ask questions about, why would God do this to God's self?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Why would God do this to himself, as opposed to, why would God do this to us? And I decided to follow and trust Jesus before I really had answers, or had passed through all the different theologies of hell or any of that stuff. And so the seed there is talking about truth and talking about faith as trust in a person, and not as belief in specific doctrines or trust in specific doctrines. And I've leaned way into that. That's the thing that has grown over time and has replaced a lot of the anxiety and trust that I was putting in other things that were either of my own effort, or what other people told me I had to believe or whatever, is trust in God the being, like the spiritual entity with which I have actually interacted and I know and I love.And that part of my faith has just grown, I think, exponentially, and has allowed me to be okay with things I don't understand. And I have long term things that I don't understand, that I do not have answers to that make me uncomfortable. And still be okay with that [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, because it's about a relationship, not perfect understanding at all times.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And if you trust God, you don't have to understand all things, just like we trust people, even though we don't understand every single thing about them.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, which is different than trusting God as a replacement for understanding [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So let's get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletters. And remember, you can get our newsletter for free just by going to KTFPress.com, and signing up for our mailing list. You'll get recommendations on articles, podcasts and other media from both of us on things that will help you in your political education and discipleship. Plus you'll get reflections to keep you grounded and hopeful as we engage in this challenging work together, news about what's going on with KTF and a lot more. So go get that free subscription, and if you want to, you should become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com.So this week, Sy, we're gonna be talking about the war in Sudan. Can you summarize the main points for us?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. And I know there are some people who know nothing about this war, so I will give kind of all the basics here. Basically, Sudan has been at war for about a year and a half, since April of 2023. And it's between two state-armed factions, one is the regular military, and the other is kind of a paramilitary force that was set up at one point that were supposed to kind of integrate into each other, and instead they were fighting over power. But what they had done previously together was to suppress the popular uprising that began in 2018 and it was to oust the longtime dictator Omar al-Bashir, and it had started as these organizations called neighborhood resistance committees all over the country.It's a little bit tough to document how many of them there are, but they're these highly localized, very fluid groups that don't have a single leader who are doing all kinds of political organizing at a local level all around the country, coordinating with each other incredibly well, and also providing mutual aid and humanitarian aid as this war goes on. They basically organized these sit ins where they had, I mean, I don't remember the numbers, a ton of people in Khartoum trying to get rid of, Khartoum is the capital, trying to get rid of al-Bashir, and they successfully did it. And then they had a whole plan to transition to an actually civilian-led democratic government, but they were sort of beaten back by military and this other paramilitary group in a coup in 2021.So there was an attempt for a couple of years to really transition Sudan to a democracy government accountable to the people, and it did not work because of this counter revolutionary coup. And so the resource that I had was this podcast from Truthout that's called Movement Memos, and they were talking to two members of the Sudanese diaspora in Canada who, one of the main points they were trying to make was that this is a counter revolutionary war. A lot of the media will portray it as a civil war, and really it is forces fighting over who gets power after basically pushing people down. Racism is a big part of the context of this too, because a lot of the elites, the military and the paramilitary elites, and everybody who's in charge of the country are Arabic. Like ethnically or racially Arabic. And a lot of the people from the South and from the resistance committees who are part of the revolutionary groups are Black.So I think a lot of the reason that we haven't talked about this is the US is not directly involved. There are things that the US does that create some problems, like the sanctions that we still have on Sudan. But the reason everyone needs to care about this is, first of all, about fifteen or sixteen thousand people have died, which is not on the same scale of death as Palestine exactly or whatever, not to minimize those deaths or anything, but they have created the largest displacement crisis anywhere in the world. There are more than eight million people who have been displaced by this war. There's famine and starvation happening. Surrounding countries are refusing refugees. In some cases, Egypt has been doing this for some time.The guests of the podcast are really saying that these neighborhood committees are the people who need outside support the most, because there's, a lot of the NGOs and everybody have fled. So amidst this humanitarian crisis, these people on the ground doing this mutual aid are the only people keeping people alive. And they actually gave a link, which I will provide, to an organization called the Sudan Solidarity Committee I believe. I can't remember the last word. Sudan Solidarity something, where you can just donate money directly to these resistance committees. They're getting it to them via PayPal, and people are just dispersing it as needed. And it's direct giving. It's nothing paternalistic.You're just giving them money, and they're doing with it what they need. And apparently a lot of the Sudanese diaspora is trying to support this group, but they can't do it on their own, and a lot of them are struggling with their own, all the financial issues that come around immigrating to other parts of the world. So yeah, we'll have the link for that in the show notes. Jonathan, that's a lot of information I just gave. I just kind of wanna know what it is that you think about this whole situation, your reaction to it, anything about the podcast that you thought was interesting.Jonathan Walton: So one thing that's really important to me is history. And fortunately, whether we're talking about Gaza, whether we're talking about Haiti, whether we're talking about Hawaii, whether we're talking about any of these places, really anywhere that colonization has touched, there's a history.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. They get into that in the podcast too.Jonathan Walton: They do. They get into it in the podcast, because history, we need to understand how we got here to be able to make something different. And what I thought was normal and revolutionary is what the scholars who are participating and being interviewed and things like that, have done with their education. So the folks they're interviewing got their education here in the West with a mind for liberation of their own people, but not their own people, understanding how this racially assigned group downstream of colonialism called Black is basically undergirding the entire economy in the world for the last 350 years. We have to engage with that as a reality, that Africa as a continent can hold the United States, China, Russia and Europe in it with room to spare. The second largest rainforest in the world is in the Congo.We've got these huge, massive amounts of resources in Africa, not just but also including its people who have been enslaved in various ways by various groups for the last 400 years. So it's helpful just that background that was provided, and then how that trickles down into then conflict in Sudan.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Can I just note one interesting fact that they've mentioned?Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: That I don't think we think about a lot, is when the colonial government left Sudan, they just vacated 800 government administrative positions or something. I can't remember what the exact number was. It was hundreds. They just vacated them. They did nothing to transition them. They didn't find people to fill them. They just left them empty [laughs]. And what do you think is gonna happen when you just create a massive power vacuum like that, with no transitional plan? You get a dictator, shocking. You know what I mean [laughs]? You get a dictator doing the exact same thing that the colonialist government that came before it did, which was effectively be a dictator.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. Because whoever had access to power post the colony is the people that colonizers empowered the majority of the time. Those educated folks, those are the people with power and resources. And so what do they do? We do what's been taught to us because we're hundreds of years removed from our own ways of leadership, our own matrilineal, patrilineal, or communal ways of governing and dividing ourselves and working together. And so all we have is the master's tools, as Audre Lorde would say. And so I think that connection to history, the connection to globalized blackness, and then just the ridiculous amount of coordination that I think, in the United States and in more resource places gets minimized, but in order, and this is where I might, “Oh, Jonathan, you're a Marxist,” and da da da.But let's lean on the reality that something Ta-Nehisi Coates said, and something will come up in the newsletter is, the way that we organize ourselves and the way that we exist together in the world is not inherent. We need to have nations that do X, Y and Z. That's a young system. Sharing is as old as we are, and so could we as followers of Jesus, as people who want to see beauty, love, justice and all these things flow in the world, just connect with our neighbors in ways that are transformative and helpful to say, “You are going through something, let me leverage my creative capacity and imagination to create ways that you can get what you need?” And I shared a video on Instagram today of a young woman named Taylor was sharing from North Carolina.She said, “If we can precision bomb people in a building a world away, we can precision guide food to people who need it.” We can do that. And so what I am empowered by, Munther Isaac said this similarly with what's happening in Gaza, when you are forced to be creative, that is where Jesus is, and that's where we can learn. And I think followers of Jesus like me in Bayside, I'm like, “Oh it's so hard for me to buy nothing and figure out this free thing and do this and do that.” And it's because I could just go to Target. I could just order on Amazon, but we don't have to do that. And I was emboldened and encouraged and empowered by the creativity, because I wonder what would happen if we learned from these people.Instead of creating a new way to do things when there's a crisis, we could actually create new ways to do things before the world is just destitute. And so I'm praying for the folks of Sudan. I wanna share [laughs] the ways to give. I'll probably sign up to give myself and then just would God move in us the way he has moved in them to mutually help and care for one another amid such destitution.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. One of the things that the guests said about the neighborhood resistance committees, that I thought was really interesting was, they were like, these committees are running services. Like they're providing food. In a couple cases, they actually took over abandoned hospitals and reopened them, found doctors and staffed them and get supplies there, whatever. They are running the country in a way that these paramilitary organizations are not. And they are out there actively proving we don't need these people [laughs]. We don't need these people, we can run the garment ourselves[laughs]. We can run the country ourselves. We have the energy to do it. We need the resources to do it. We could do so much more if there wasn't so much violence and displacement and poverty and famine.But yeah, that kind of imagination, that kind of, you're right. That kind of necessity has created in them just an incredible capacity to share and to love each other, frankly. And I also hope that we learn from that. But at the same time, that's why they've seen so much violence and repression, is because they are threatening the power structure. And not only that, but when they were doing the sit ins a few years ago, and they ousted Al-Bashir, there were other countries starting to look to them for similar resistance. There are people in, like they mentioned specifically in the podcast, there're people in Lebanon looking at Hezbollah and going, “Could we do something about this?” [laughs]People in other countries are actually looking to these Sudanese organizations. And so the ruling power structures have to shut that down. And it means that there are other countries involved in helping them shut it down. So it's like the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other countries that are not interested in seeing revolutions like this [laughs] are involved, are providing weapons, are doing all kinds of things and just interfering in a regional way, in the way that we as the US are used to doing globally all the time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: This particular conflict, the US doesn't see as being as closely aligned with its interests as say, defending Israel, or now empowering Israel to go invade other countries.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Which is what has just started as we are recording this. I'm sure we'll have more to say about that.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So go listen to this podcast. Go read more about this conflict in the media. The reason we wanted to bring it up is, I didn't wanna become the thing I'm critiquing and not talk about Sudan just because it doesn't affect the US. But man, the media is not talking about Sudan when we should be. So please go listen to this podcast. The link will be in the show notes, please just go learn more. Give if you can. They're asking for 10 Canadian dollars a month, which is like 7.50 US [laughs]. So please, if you have some money to spare, there are people in desperate need of it who are doing very good things with it. Alright, I'm gonna wrap us up there. Thank you so much for listening today. Jonathan, thank you for a great conversation, as always.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale. Editing by Multitude Productions. And the producers of this show are the lovely paid subscribers. Again, please consider becoming a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, get all the bonus episodes of this show, join our monthly Zoom calls, comment on our blog, on our Substack, and more. Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you in a couple of weeks for what I think will be the… yeah, will be the last show that we do before the election. So we'll be talking more about some current affairs then, and doing a great interview. So we will see you in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Stay blessed y'all.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Jonathan Walton: That was the first advo—like [sound of something repeatedly hitting the mic hard]whoa, hit the mic [laughter]. My first quote- unquote, advocacy poem that I wrote, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: But can you say that again, just without laughing or hitting the mic [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and slapping the mic? Yeah. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Grammy Award Winning ProducerMy guest is a Grammy Award-winning songwriter and producer Carvin Haggins.  Carvin is best known for receiving two Grammy awards, collaborating with such artists as Chris Brown, Justin Timberlake, Jill Scott, Patti Labelle, Mary J. Blige, Music Soulchild, Rick Ross, Mario, Ace Hood and many others. The multi- platinum producer / songwriter has received over 25 Grammy nominations and 10 ASCAP writer awards.He was named Philly 360 Creative Ambassador of Philadelphia. Also he serves on the Board of Directors for the Community Angel Foundation; and he is often invited to speak to young people about his life journey and experiences at various nonprofit organizations and functions. In addition, Haggins is also a Minister and Sunday School teacher at the Southern Baptist Church in North Philadelphia.Haggins states, “My greatest influence is Jesus Christ and I now understand my mission in this life is to be subservient to my calling to help others through his nameHe is also a leader in 360 Entertainment International (360EI). Don Fryson, President & CEO of 360 Entertainment International; Founder and originator of 360EI Records / Clean Money Music stated, ʺwe believe Carvinʹs work ethic and concern for todayʹs music falls in line with our vision. His dedication to the community, artist development and bringing a different perspective to the music industry makes him a perfect choice to head 360EI Records, and lead the Clean Money Music movement that is gaining traction across the nation.”Clean Money Music™ a healthy lifestyle, the new generation of hip hop – features male and female artists who take responsibility to improve the conditions around them. Clean Money Music™ returns rap music to its original hip hop roots, with social commentary, lifestyle, culture, and fun as it's basis. We feel the use of foul language, violence, misogynistic images and lyrics has created an environment that has undermined our communities for far too long. The purpose of the Clean Money Music movement is to bring a different dynamic to the way people and the media perceive the hip hop artist and the communities they represent.Carvin Haggins, says ʺI had no choice but to take the position of President. The world needs and wants change. Clean Money Music is that change.ʺ© 2024 Building Abundant Success!!2024 All Rights ReservedJoin Me on ~ iHeart Media @ https://tinyurl.com/iHeartBASAmazon ~ https://tinyurl.com/AmzBASAudacy:  https://tinyurl.com/BASAud

Rina shares her journey from being a professional dominatrix to becoming a vulnerability coach and Shibari practitioner. She explains that as a vulnerability coach, she creates safe spaces for people to fall apart and discover their true selves. Rina's path to becoming a vulnerability coach started when she became a dominatrix and realized that she was already providing a form of vulnerability coaching to her clients. She eventually felt the need to evolve and explore a more holistic and spiritual approach, which led her to Shibari and tantric bodywork. Rina's clients now seek transformation and growth through intentional experiences. Rina shares her experience of falling apart and the journey of self-discovery and healing through Shibari. She emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for people to fall apart and be vulnerable. Rina discusses the role of community in providing support and acceptance during challenging times. She also highlights the need for authenticity and surrounding oneself with people who support personal growth and authenticity. Rina believes that falling apart is a natural part of life and that having a supportive community can help navigate these transitions. Creating safe spaces to fall apart and finding beauty in transformation is a crucial part of life. The process of death and rebirth is inherent in eternal life. Developing internal safety through spiritual practices allows for surrender and connection to something greater. Exploring different mystical traditions and finding beauty in brokenness can lead to profound experiences. The Southern Baptist Church is an example of creating beauty and ecstasy out of a painful history. The ask for the audience is to consider creating more beauty and safety in their own lives. www.vulnerabilitycoaching.com IG: @rina_trevi

Southern Baptist Church sex abuse - OPPERMAN REPORT EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEWDec 11, 2023US Southern Baptist churches facing ‘apocalypse' over sexual abuse scandalA report named hundreds of church leaders accused or found guilty of abusing children and says survivors were mistreated.America's largest Protestant and second-largest Christian denomination is being roiled by a sexual abuse scandal that casts a harsh light on one of the most politically powerful religious groups in the country as well as renewing a focus on its racist past.The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a collection of loosely affiliated member churches, boasting just under 15 million members, and is dominated by white members, who are usually deeply socially conservative. The convention has often been a powerful tool for rightwing organizing in recent years, especially on issues around abortion.But the SBC is now so mired in scandal that one recent former top official said it faced a “Southern Baptist apocalypse”.The issue at hand is the release by the SBC of a 205-page document naming hundreds of Baptist leaders and members accused or found guilty of sexual abuse of children. The list, which includes 700 entries on cases between 2000 and 2019, was released after a bombshell third-party investigation by Guidepost Solutions said the convention's leaders in its executive committee failed the public and its community by mishandling sexual abuse cases and mistreating victims and survivors.SBC leaders Rolland Slade and Willie McLaurin issued a statement saying the list “reminds us of the devastation and destruction brought about by sexual abuse. Our prayer is that the survivors of these heinous acts find hope and healing, and that churches will utilize this list proactively to protect and care for the most vulnerable among us.”This exclusive interview examines the truth first hand, and it's only available here, on Opperman Report Patreon.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.

This week's episode is coming out on Juneteenth, a federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the United States. But before we can get to our discussion about it (including how JD Vance recently introduced a “Dismantle DEI” bill to roll back Biden's diversity programs), it seems there's always more reproductive healthcare news to talk about. Last week, Senate Republicans blocked a bill to protect the right to IVF, and the Southern Baptist Church just voted to oppose IVF as well. And that's not even the only repro news to talk about, because the Supreme Court just rejected a challenge to mifepristone, the abortion pill, saying there was no standing to sue. This is good news... but (there's always a “but”!) this decision allows them to delay a merits decision on this issue until after the election. The fight is far from over.Then Jasmine sits down with Dr. Kaye Wise Whitehead, a professor, author, and leader who is also known as the #BlackMommyActivist. Dr. Kaye is an incredible storyteller and walks us through the origins of Juneteenth, how being a mom has inspired her activism, and how it's not just famous leaders but also everyday people who have done the hard work to make real change. We encourage everyone to learn more about her work with the African American Policy Forum and Critical Race Theory Summer School, as well as read her book Letters to My Black Sons: Raising Boys in a Post-Racial America.Finally, Amanda and Jasmine raise a glass to fathers and family reunions in this week's Toast to Joy.It's hard to believe, but this Monday will mark 2 years since the Dobbs decision overturned Roe v Wade. If you want to learn about how you can fight for reproductive freedom, we invite you to join Red Wine & Blue and Sister District for a virtual event this Monday June 24th at 8pm Eastern.And don't forget to sign up for our Substack newsletter! It's free and we'd love to hear from you in the comments.For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue. You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Today, we discuss the recent confession of "inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady" from Pastor Robert Morris of Gateway Church. The alleged victim, Cindy Clemishire, claims the abuse began when she was just 12 years old and Morris was 21 and lasted for more than four years. What does this mean for Christians, particularly in light of Pastor Tony Evans' recent resignation over sin? Are all Christians qualified to be teachers? And how can victims of abuse find solace in Scripture? Plus, the Southern Baptist Church recently voted on an amendment concerning female pastors. We discuss the outcome and what this means for the SBC. Get your tickets for Share the Arrows: https://www.sharethearrows.com/ --- Timecodes: (01:10) Introduction (03:15) Introduction to Robert Morris (16:00) Church response / statement (28:30) Reason for his sabbatical (33:49) Commentary on X (38:47) Morris's past sermons & my experience in the SBC (52:53) What Scripture says about this (01:05:03) SBC votes on female pastors & IVF --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — Change the way you buy meat today at GoodRanchers.com with code ALLIE to claim your $100 off and free smoked brats for a year.  Get free shipping on all your orders and make this Independence Day one to remember.  Jase Medical — get up to a year's worth of many of your prescription medications delivered in advance. Go to JaseMedical.com today and use promo code “ALLIE". Pre-Born — will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to Preborn.com/ALLIE. Covenant Eyes — protect you and your family from the things you shouldn't be looking at online. Go to coveyes.com/ALLIE to try it FREE for 30 days! --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 1020 | Botched: The Brutality of Trans Mastectomies | Guest: Soren Aldaco https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1020-botched-the-brutality-of-trans/id1359249098?i=1000659311855 Ep 1017 | Dr. Tony Evans Steps Down Over Secret Sin https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1017-dr-tony-evans-steps-down-over-secret-sin/id1359249098?i=1000658686225 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Liam Adams is Religion Reporter at The Tennessean joins Tom and Megan to recap the Southern Baptist Church Convention and the take on in-vitro fertilization.

Kevin and Bill Jack discuss the issues of feminism and women pastors in American churches. This program includes: 1. The World View in 5 Minutes with Adam McManus (Supreme Court allows Abortion Kill Pill to be sent through mail, North Korea sent 1,400 helium balloons with manure and trash to South Korea, God sent two rescuers to save father and 2 boys in Colorado River) 2. Generations with Kevin Swanson

The Southern Baptist Convention has historically been one of the largest conservative Christian organizations within the country. We're currently seeing another battle occur within the convention over feminism and women pastors. The battle isn't over yet. Feminism and egalitarianism are gigantic forces in America, and they're affecting the churches. Kevin and Bill Jack discuss the issues of feminism and women pastors in American churches on this edition of the program.

The Southern Baptist Convention has historically been one of the largest conservative Christian organizations within the country. We're currently seeing another battle occur within the convention over feminism and women pastors. The battle isn't over yet. Feminism and egalitarianism are gigantic forces in America, and they're affecting the churches. Kevin and Bill Jack discuss the issues of feminism and women pastors in American churches on this edition of the program.

Kevin and Bill Jack discuss the issues of feminism and women pastors in American churches.--This program includes---1. The World View in 5 Minutes with Adam McManus -Supreme Court allows Abortion Kill Pill to be sent through mail, North Korea sent 1,400 helium balloons with manure and trash to South Korea, God sent two rescuers to save father and 2 boys in Colorado River---2. Generations with Kevin Swanson

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Women Pastors in the Southern Baptist Church – Giving in to Feminism Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 6/14/2024 Length: 35 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Women Pastors in the Southern Baptist Church – Giving in to Feminism Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 6/14/2024 Length: 35 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Women Pastors in the Southern Baptist Church – Giving in to Feminism Subtitle: Giving in to Feminism Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 6/14/2024 Length: 22 min.

Today, we discuss some news in the Baptist church — Pastor Tony Evans has decided to step down due to a "secret" past sin. Is he obligated to confess his sin? In related news, the Southern Baptist Church is expected to outlaw female pastors and issue a resolution urging the government to limit IVF. We discuss what these votes mean for the future of the church. Plus, more of Cru's LGBTQ curriculum recently leaked, and we go through some concerns we have with it. Get your tickets for Share the Arrows: https://www.sharethearrows.com/ --- Timecodes: (00:00) Introduction (01:09) Tony Evans steps down (13:09) SBC to vote on female pastors & IVF (29:29) Cru LGBTQ Curriculum Update (57:31) Announcements --- Today's Sponsors: Range Leather — highest quality leather, age-old techniques and all backed up with a “forever guarantee." Go to rangeleather.com and use coupon code "ALLIE" to receive 15% off your first order. A'del — try A'del's hand-crafted, artisan, small-batch cosmetics and use promo code ALLIE 25% off your first time purchase at AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Pre-Born — will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to Preborn.com/ALLIE. Carly Jean Los Angeles — use promo code ALLIE50 for $50 off your order of $100+ at carlyjeanlosangeles.com. --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 669 | My Thoughts on Matt Chandler & Baptist Theology https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000577833389 Ep 607 | John MacArthur, Hillsong Documentary, & SBC Drama | Guest: Megan Basham https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000558899144 Ep 765 | Can Women Be Pastors? | BSC vs. Saddleback | Q&A https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000603031549 Ep 960 | Unraveling Cru's Troubling LGBTQ Curriculum https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000647583878 Ep 908 | Calling Out Cru's LGBTQ Compromise https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000634953278 Ep 796 | Former Lesbian Activist Calls "Soft" Christians to Repentace | Guest: Rosaria Butterfield https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000610921016 Ep 782 | 'Pronoun Hospitality' Is Sin: Rosaria Butterfield's Confession https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000607404995 Ep 896 | From 'Trans Men' to Transformed by Christ | Guest: Laura Perry Smalts (Part One) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000632613519 Ep 897 | A Detransitioner on the Lie of Trans ‘Joy' | Guest: Laura Perry Smalts (Part Two) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-897-a-detransitioner-on-the-lie-of-trans/id1359249098?i=1000632747460 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Pastor Danny continues his conversation with Cindy Asmussen, GHBC member, SBTC Public Policy Advisor, and SBC Board of Trustees member of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. In this episode, Cindy shares about her work in the Southern Baptist Church, her conservative political activism, and what she thinks about key current issues, including how Christians ought to vote.

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ok7qRXGZYroFor nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn't back down. And on this edition of The Roys Report, you'll hear her story. Joining host Julie Roys is Christa Brown, an abuse survivor who overcame the odds in pursuit of justice. As a 16-year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her never to speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belonged to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence—and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing. But instead, they attacked her. That began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention—and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. She recounts it all in detail in her just released memoir, Baptistland. Christa found her voice, rising above her past trauma to become a leading voice in the national and global abuse survivor community. She speaks with unrelenting honesty about the patterns of abuse in evangelical churches—and the necessary steps to bring reform. Guests Christa Brown Named as one of the "top 10 religion newsmakers" of 2022, Christa Brown has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy sex abuse and coverups in the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. As one of the first to go public with substantiated child molestation allegations against a Baptist minister—and documentation that others knew—she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. She is the author of Baptistland and This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang. Christa, who is retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma, lives with her husband in Colorado. Show Transcript SPEAKERSCHRISTA BROWN, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04For nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down and on this podcast, you’ll hear her story. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Christa Brown, someone who’s become a sort of legend in the abuse survivor community. As a 16- year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her to never speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belongs to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing, but instead, they attacked her. And that began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. Joining me is Christa Brown, someone who for decades fought to expose sex abuse and cover up within the Southern Baptist Convention. She has been dubbed the mother of all abuse bloggers, and also is named by the Religion News Association as one of the top 10 religion newsmakers of 2022. She’s also a retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma. So Christa, welcome. It is such a privilege to have you on this podcast.   CHRISTA BROWN  03:22 Thank you, Julie, I really appreciate it. I’m so glad to be with you.   Julie Roys  03:26 And you’re kind of like a legend. I don’t know if you recognize this, but you have been at this a very, very long time and the persistence that you have had to expose what’s been going on within the Southern Baptist Convention, it didn’t just happen to you, it happened to so so many women and men who have been victims. And so just as somebody who’s been in this space for a really long time, not nearly as long as you, I just really appreciate your work. So thank you.   CHRISTA BROWN  04:16 Thanks. And of course, this is something that is still continuing to happen too.   Julie Roys  04:21 That’s true. So I just finished your book, Baptistland, and really emotionally, still wrestling to come to terms  with everything I read. I think there were several things that really struck me from your book. Of course, the horror of the sex abuse that you had at the hands of your own youth pastor, somebody that you trusted, and the spiritual abuse involved in that was just absolutely horrific. But I think too, the abuse within your own family and the psychological and emotional abuse that was there and kind of how that conditioned you for the abuse and to kind of keep secrets. And so it kind of contributed to everything that happened. But I think lastly, was your resiliency, which is amazing in the face of what you encountered, your resiliency. And I don’t know how you did that. I mean, what do you attribute the resiliency that you’ve had to overcome so many hurdles in your life?   CHRISTA BROWN  05:26 I don’t know. In part, I think I’m a little stubborn by nature. I think that is there. In part, I think I had the enormous good fortune to encounter a wonderful husband and wonderful spouse, who has been nothing but supportive. And I think, when someone has that kind of support in their life, I mean, that came, of course, later as an adult, but that too, of course, has just been an enormous source of stability for me. So yeah, I’ve had those things. And in that sense, I’ve been very, very fortunate.   Julie Roys  06:10 If someone has just even one person in their life that’s advocating for them, that’s behind them, it makes a huge difference. And I know my spouse has been with me 100% in the work I’ve done as well. And I credit him for a lot of what I’ve been able to do as well. So I can relate to that.   CHRISTA BROWN  06:28 Yeah. I mean, he’s a behind-the-scenes kind of guy. No one knows my husband, but he is very much there for me.   Julie Roys  06:38  You divide your memoir into four different deaths, as you call them. And of course, there’s an element of resurrection and all of that, too. But your deaths start, the very first death that you write about is the abuse that you suffered by, again, your own youth pastor. But as I mentioned, there was some dysfunction in your own home, that kind of conditioned you to be able to have this abuse, and maybe to keep it quiet. Would you talk a little bit about that, the home situation that conditioned you to stay quiet about the abuse?   CHRISTA BROWN  07:19 Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the sort of home that it’s like, we all pretend we’re happy. What happened didn’t happen. And when someone blows up and throws plates across the wall, we clean it up, and we act like nothing ever happened. When my father explodes, we all just go on. My father had serious PTSD problems, but back then, we would not have even had that acronym PTSD, we didn’t know what to call it. We just all, as with many families across America, when war veterans come home, we all just do the best we can. But that very dynamic of never talking about it, and just always putting you in the background and moving on, conditioned me to keep quiet and to not talk about things in the family. We did not talk about the family with outsiders. That was for sure. And so all of that, I think is part of what conditioned me. Then when I was abused by the pastor, why would I talk about it? I had no experience in talking about anything troubling in my life, None. What was normal was never to talk about things. And I hope people will see that because of course, that’s one of the very common questions that people often ask, Well, why didn’t you tell someone sooner? Why didn’t you talk about it? I hope people will see in my book, the only rational question is, why would she have ever talked about it? And then, of course, the fact that I did try with a couple people and that only made things worse.   Julie Roys  09:08 Yeah. And there was also this element of spiritual abuse, which honestly, when I was reading your book, and I’ve heard a lot of spiritual abuse, but I would say this was almost just so wicked, because in your case, you were so trusting, you had such a childlike faith in God. And he just completely exploited that. Would you talk about the spiritual abuse and how that how that really gave him power over you?   CHRISTA BROWN  09:40 Oh, it gave him enormous power. And I hope people will see that the enormous power that earnest that a person’s faith can hold when it is weaponized against them, because that is what gave him power. I mean, I think there are many people who would wish to believe that this happens to kids who are in some way, oh, morally lacks or they want to blame the kid for some reason, that the reality is what made me vulnerable? What made me a target? What made me easy prey? was the very fact that I love God so much. My faith was earnest and pure and that is precisely what was weaponized against me literally. I was raised from toddlerhood to believe that you trust these men who carry the voice of God, that they are men and God. In the framework I held in my mind at that time., there was no other possibility other than to obey.   Julie Roys  11:00 You know, it’s interesting, because I just had a conversation with my daughter this morning. And I feel kind of bad sometimes because of the work that I’m in, that they’re exposed to the evil of it. But at the same time, I realized this morning, as we were talking about some things, she knows to be skeptical, that trust is earned. I don’t care what title someone holds. She knows that you still need to know that this person may not be trustworthy, you need to watch them over time. But I think especially in our generation growing up. I mean, I never would have dreamed that a pastor could be involved in any kind of wrongdoing. It just wasn’t in my worldview. So I totally get that. And the other thing is, and this is probably the most wicked is the way that he made you feel then that you are somehow evil because you had participated in this and even did like an exorcism on you or something, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  12:05 Yes. After this had gone on for months and months, seven, eight months. And it escalated, of course, and got worse. And then toward the end, he began to tell me that I had harbored Satan. And I was a temptress. And finally, then he called me into his office one day and made me kneel. While he, with one hand on my shoulder and one hand raised, stood over me as I was kneeling, praying on and on for God to cast Satan from me. But as a kid. I mean, that was just, that was terrifying. I mean, I didn’t know how I had let Satan in, and I didn’t know what I had done. If I didn’t know how I’d let Satan in I didn’t know how to make Satan leave me. And the very thought that I held Satan within me, made me think I was going to hell, which, as a kid, I was raised with a very literal version of hell, where you burn forever with no reprieve. This was absolutely terrifying. And of course, in hindsight, I think that’s exactly what he wanted was to put this enormous, just exponentially greater shame onto me, so that I would not talk about it. Because why would I want anyone to know that I harbored Satan?   Julie Roys  13:36 Unbelievable And yet when you did speak, like you referenced, nothing was done to help you. And you initially spoke with it was your music minister, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  13:49 Yes, that’s right. And he was also my piano teacher. I always had my piano lessons in the church sanctuary on the baby grand there. He was the music minister. And it was because I had just developed this enormous fear that I must surely be going to hell. And so one day at my piano lesson, I just, I mean, psychologically, I was at a point where I was just breaking then, and I just completely froze. I mean, my hands literally would not move on the keys. And I told the music minister that I was afraid I was going to hell, and I asked him, “Am I going to hell? Then I told him that I’ve had an affair. And that was my own word an affair with the pastor. And he basically just told me to never talk about it again, at all. And he said, I wouldn’t go to hell, but it wasn’t much comfort, really, at that time. He told me never to talk about it. He did nothing. And many, many years later, I learned that he had already known even at that point in time, because the youth pastor himself had talked about it with him.   Julie Roys  15:00 That level of complicity and silence, I just I don’t understand like, do you have any idea why he would do that? Why would a music minister say nothing about a pastor that he knows is sexually abusing a teenage girl?   CHRISTA BROWN  15:26 It’s very hard for me to explain. He was a father himself. He had a young daughter at that time. And so it’s hard for me to understand why he couldn’t think about his own daughter and imagine how he would feel if it were her. And it’s very, very hard for me to comprehend. I think that instinct among some religious leaders who kind of circle the wagons and protect themselves is very, very strong. Also the sense of protecting the institution, the sense of not doing anything that would bring, that would hurt the cause of Christ that would hurt the witness. I think all of that is a part of it. And yet, of course, none of that excuses it.   Julie Roys  16:21 No, and it’s not really biblical. I mean, Scripture tells us to confess our sins, not to bury our sins, and yet, that’s what the church has been doing for so long. Not all churches, but certainly within the Southern Baptist Convention this has been a widespread problem. So Tommy Gilmore, who was your youth pastor,, did eventually leave the church, was given what I understand sort of a hero’s send-off. Yes. And then, which I just can’t even imagine you as a kid, like, you have to go through an exorcism. Meanwhile, your abuser gets a hero send-off, and then you go home to live like, just go on, right? Like nothing’s happened, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  17:07 That’s right. He did indeed have a hero sendoff. He went to a bigger church; I was told that he would have a better salary. The senior pastor praised him for the pulpit and talk of how fortunate we all were, how blessed we were to have had such a man of God in our midst for so long, there was a big church reception where everyone brought their casseroles and stuff. And in hindsight, I don’t know how as a kid, I could have thought anything else. I mean, here was a great man of God, praised by everyone. I was the girl who harbored Satan.   Julie Roys  17:43 Just awful. And when you did go home, you did confess to one of your sisters what had happened. Her response was pretty horrific.   CHRISTA BROWN  17:53 Yes, she called me a slut.   Julie Roys  17:55 Unbelievable. And so the shame that you must have felt that you shouldn’t have felt but I’m sure you did, must have been just just awful. But you were given, I mean, sound like the pastor then arranged for you to have a job at the library. And your mother kind of encouraged you for this maybe? What was it he said that he thought you should be busy or something? Or I mean, kind of like he knew what had happened.   CHRISTA BROWN  18:23 Yeah exactly. None of this was really explained to me. But my mom said, Brother Hayden thinks you need to stay busy. And so they set me up with a job at the Farmers Branch Public Library, which I started immediately, which turned out to be even though I had never sought this job. But it turned out to be a very, very good thing. I loved working at the library.   Julie Roys  18:52 And you even said, I think later on your book, you credit some of your ability to come through all this to the books that you read, which opened your mind to a whole new world, which what a beautiful thing that in the midst of all of this awfulness, there was this oasis right?   CHRISTA BROWN  19:09 Oh, absolutely. The library was very much my safe place. Books were my safe place, always my refuge. A library has a certain kind of orderliness about it, and the neat rows and every book has its place. And that brought a level of comfort to me.   Julie Roys  19:28 Yeah. And one of the great things was that you were a very studious person, it sounds like, and that ended up being a route for you kind of out of some of your home life. But initially, you thought you would go off to college when you graduated from high school. It didn’t really turn out that way. Kind of like your mom sabotaged that. Is that a correct way of putting it?   CHRISTA BROWN  19:51 Yes, that is she did sabotage it. She wanted me at home for her own reasons, and I wound up staying home and commuting to college, and it was a very, very bad year, because she was struggling enormously. And both of my parents were struggling.   Julie Roys  20:13 The second death that you described is when your sister Rita was separated from her husband, Richard, and something happened. I’m gonna let you describe what happened, but also how that played out within your family and your family relationships.   CHRISTA BROWN  20:31 Well basically, I had gone over to babysit their young two-year-old daughter, and he made a move on me. Told me that he had married the wrong sister. That he should have married me. He picked the right family but picked the wrong sister. And I felt very trapped at the time. I did leave, of course. But I mean, this was someone I had grown up with. This was someone who was like a brother to me. This was my oldest sister. And so he had been a part of our family, since I was like 12 years old. So, in that sense, it just felt incredibly wrong and bizarre. But the one thing I knew with absolute certainty was that if I talked about it, I would be blamed for it. That even at that young age, I knew that for sure. And so ever after this was, again, another great secret that I had the key. It really kind of, I think, warped some of the relationships in our family. For every Thanksgiving, and all sorts of family gatherings thereafter, every single time, I would always try very, very hard to make sure I was never alone in the room with him. And yeah, that was the death of that kind of view of my family. I think.   Julie Roys  22:14 One of the things I’ve noticed just from my experience in ministry is that often a child that’s raised in a dysfunctional home, even though they recognize it’s a dysfunctional home, has trouble breaking those patterns, and often picks a spouse that is often very much like the dysfunctional parent or one of the dysfunctional parents. And yet you did the exact opposite. I mean, you turned down one proposal from someone who you didn’t love. And your mother pressured you quite a bit to marry because he had an engineering degree with some financial stability there. But instead you met a guy, Jim. What was it that really drew you to Jim, someone who was completely other than your family, and so healthy in so many ways? What really made you fall for Jim?   CHRISTA BROWN  23:13 Well. Initially, it was just that he had these gorgeous blue eyes.   Julie Roys  23:18 That helps, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  23:21 But it was just a connection there that I could not deny. You know, and with Jim, what you see is what you get. He is who he is, and there is never ever any kind of hidden agenda, any dagger behind that smile. That’s it. He is up for and in true. And that was always very clear to me. That mainly, it was just this connection that I felt with him. So much so that, I mean, it felt so powerful. And I felt fearful of it because I think I recognized immediately that this was something powerful, life-changing potentially. And so initially, what I did was to tell him that I could never be serious about someone who hadn’t read Anna Karenina.   Julie Roys  24:18 Well, of course! Who of us hasn’t said that, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  24:24 That was my effort in escaping because I was so afraid of this. But Jim proceeded to read Anna Karenina. So I had no excuse. And so we’ve been together ever since.   Julie Roys  24:37 That’s so funny. And then you went on to do something that nobody in your family thought possible. You went to law school, and even the application process and everything. I mean, to have the gumption to do that. Despite the fact your mother said you’re gonna fail. You’re not going to do well. Again, this incredible hurdle, what made you feel like you could go to law school?   CHRISTA BROWN  25:07 You know, I really only had, I came from a blue-collar family. And I really only had one friend at that point in time, who had been to law school. And I kind of thought, Well, I think I’m as smart as him. And he was a good deal more assertive than me by temperament. But I thought I could give it a chance. And initially, I really was very tentative about it. I kind of just kind of tip toed in and told myself, well, I’ll try it for one semester and see how it goes. But I did well, so then I continued. And with my family, I did not tell anyone I was even applying until I was already in, already accepted, already had my financial aid lined up. Because I was fearful of what the reaction would be. I was fearful of how negative it would be. And even intellectually, knowing that maybe that’s not right, your family’s words still carry power. And so I made sure I had things in place before I even told them.   Julie Roys  26:21 So true and so important. But yeah, I mean, even if  intellectually, that’s a lie. Or even if they’re saying this because of their own issues, right? It’s still hard to overcome that. And so the fact that you did, again, amazing resiliency. And then you had a daughter, which is just so beautiful. I have one daughter, I had two boys, and then my daughter. But daughters change us in remarkable ways. And you, even though you really didn’t have a model for healthy parenting, sounds like you did a really great job, and you broke some of those patterns of behavior that you saw in your family. What do you attribute that to?   CHRISTA BROWN  27:09 I attribute it to letting my daughter herself educate me, being observant of her, trying to attune myself to what’s going on with her. And recognizing that and trying to be sensitive to that. I do think that breaking long established patterns or familial dysfunction is very, very difficult. I mean, lots of people would like to make a decision and say, Oh, I won’t do things like my parents did. But the thing is, it’s not just a one-time decision. It’s something that has to be done in 1000s, of tiny, tiny little decisions, to choose to pause in the moment, to pay attention, to think about what’s happening. And that kind of attentiveness takes effort. And I think I attribute it to that. Also books I write,I don’t feel that I had a good roadmap to follow from my own upbringing. But  I was big on books.   Julie Roys  28:29 And that guided you. One book that you mentioned, you read your daughter was the Bible, but  chose not to raise her in the church, understandably because of your experience. But you decided to have her explore that herself with just reading her scripture and telling her Bible stories. As I was reading that, I just realized that my own experience within the church when I think of like your experience, my experience, things that for me, certain songs that for me are very comforting to you probably have a totally different connotation. Like for me, Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus is a beautiful song that reminds me of a wonderful, idyllic, really in comparison childhood that I had growing up in the church, where people were trustworthy, and people weren’t hypocrites. But yet for you were, how do you come to terms with that, and with what the church did? with God? with faith? How do you come to terms with that?   CHRISTA BROWN  29:53 For me, it’s very, very different. Because things like that. Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus. No, it was not sweet for me. Because trusting in Jesus, that was exactly what I did as a kid. That was my whole heart was to put every bit of trust in Jesus. And that led me down a very, very dark road. And that’s not the kind of thing that I can cognitively reason my way out of. Because the reality for me is that things like that, hymns like that, all sorts of Scripture like that, that for me now is kind of physiologically, neurologically networked with child rape. And that’s not something I can just say, Oh, no, I’m gonna think about this and not choose for it to be that way. No, that’s the way it is. And I accept that that is how it is. And I live with that. So yeah, for me, I mean, and that, I think, is what people need to realize is the enormous if you value your faith so much, then you need to be implementing serious accountability measures to make sure that these kinds of men do not church hop from church to church, because look at the damage that is done.   Julie Roys  31:20 Well. And that’s why I think spiritual abuse, and especially when it’s coupled with sexual abuse, has to be about the most profound harmful abuse there is, because you’re not just harming the body, but the soul in such a profound way. And it really is, I mean, that spiritual leaders or people who purport to be spiritual leaders, aren’t just horrified and wanting to root this out. I mean, says to me a lot about what they truly believe.   CHRISTA BROWN  31:55 Exactly. It is very, very hard. Certainly, for me, it is very hard to feel safe in faith, when faith itself has been used to eviscerate. And that doesn’t mean feeling safe in a church. That means feeling safe within myself in faith. It’s a very hard thing now,   Julie Roys  32:19 The shame that you felt as a kid, as I talk to you now, you seem to be very clear on the fact that you should have felt no shame, that you did nothing wrong. At what point did you get to that point where you realized this is not my fault? This is has been put on me by evil people. But it’s not my fault. I’m sure it was a process. But were there any points at which like, kind of a breakthrough where you’re like, this was not me?   CHRISTA BROWN  32:55 Yes. It was really my daughter who saved me, I think. Because when she was approaching the same age I had been at the time that the abuse, it was as though something exploded in my head. All these dark dusty boxes that were on the back shelf of my brain, that I had shoved back there and ignored for so long. All of a sudden, I kind of had to pull those boxes down and look at them and see what was in them. And that shifted thing. Suddenly, I saw things through the eyes of a mother in imagining what if someone did to my daughter what was done to me? And that was something I could not live with and could not accept. And really, that was  the singular kernel of truth from which everything else flowed. Because the one thing I knew for sure, and I didn’t know very much for sure. But I knew this, if someone did to my daughter what had been done to me, I would not blame her for one second, and I would be absolutely furious. And that shifted everything.   Julie Roys  34:20 Hmm. And so you did. You did at the age of 51, right? You publicly spoke out and really you talk about this as sort of the third death when you spoke about what had happened because of the response that you got. Although, before we talk about the response, just the fact that and I read in your book that the average age of someone coming forward is 52 which is insane to me, I would have guessed, like maybe late 20s early 30s you begin to sort of grapple with what had happened in your family or whatever. Why is it so late that people come forward about their childhood sexual abuse?   CHRISTA BROWN  35:13 I think the shame is so enormous. And as a kid, we absorbed that shame, and when we ossify into a few of what happened that blamed ourselves and we absorb that, as a kid, we solidify that view. It’s horrifying, we put that view, we put that into a box, put it up in their head, and put it on the back shelf. And we never want to look at it again, although, of course, it’s there. And it affects us in enormous ways. But I think it then just takes a very, very long time. And then there are these triggering events, like having kids of our own, to begin to understand, because we formed that view when we were young. And it impacted our whole identity.   Julie Roys  36:09 So when you did come forward, you spoke to your church, your childhood church. I’m not sure why you had optimism about that.   CHRISTA BROWN  36:19 I’m an optimistic person by nature.   Julie Roys  36:22 Yeah. I mean, you must. But I mean, when I read that I also thought,  when I first blew the whistle at Moody, I naively thought when I went to the trustees with the information I had, they would do the right thing. And that was not my experience. But I think we still hold on to this view that, man, these authority figures, they must not know. And so if I tell them, they will do something. Explain what happened when you did come forward to your church, and then I believe to, the Baptist Convention there in Texas as well.   CHRISTA BROWN  36:58 I was in my 50s,  early 50s. And I absolutely believe that they would do the right thing, that they want to help me. I was adamant about it. The same music minister who had known when I was a kid was still there at my same childhood church. I was absolutely convinced; I knew that he had raised a daughter by then. I thought he’s older now he will know better. He’ll wish he had done things differently. He will have learned some things; he will want to help me. And I have never been more wrong about anything in all my life then I was about that. Because the church’s first response was to threaten to seek legal recourse against me if I talked about it. And yeah, that was fairly intimidating. Even as someone who is a lawyer, I thought, whoa. And of course, you have to realize, I think, even as I’m doing this, at that point in time, I’m still trying to work through this process in my own mind, of unpacking everything that was done to me, of just dealing with it, of coming to terms with it. And that is a long emotional process because it was very traumatic. And at the same time then having the church threaten me, and try to bully me, that was just absolutely devastating. And then eventually, of course, yes, I also talked with people at the Baptist General Convention of Texas. Again, thinking these will know something. And I’ve contacted 18 Southern Baptist leaders in four different states, thinking surely there would be someone and there was no one. Absolutely no one who would do anything to help.   Julie Roys  38:59 One of the things that I thought back on when I was reading your book is about totalitarian states; that one of the things that a totalitarian state has to do is take over the press. And in Baptist land, they had their own press. Yes. And that was also weaponized against you, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  39:22 Yes, exactly. The Baptist Press published an article in which they said that I made false accusations, which, again, that was just absolutely devastating. But they’re in control of their own press, which gives them the ability to control the narrative, to present the picture that they want to present. That’s a very, very powerful tool.   Julie Roys  39:47 Although they don’t control all of it. And this is the thing that I have been so grateful for before the internet. Really, you had to go through all the gatekeepers, and I know, I couldn’t have done the reporting I’ve done had I had to go through the gatekeepers of the major Christian publications because they didn’t want to report half of this. Right. And I think the whole ME-TOO movement has taken off because of that. The Church TOO movement has taken off, because now, we have our own platforms, we have our own megaphones. And we can expose this stuff, and you did not stop. You just kept coming. And I’m guessing that that you’re one of so many, and so many people who have been suffering the same way as you have. But you went to the Southern Baptist Convention, you spoke out. Talk about your literally decades of advocacy, and what has kept you going through that.   CHRISTA BROWN  40:56 What has always kept me going has been the stories of other survivors, the very awareness that I wasn’t alone, and that there were so many others who did not have the ability, the resources, the educational background, the stamina, or maybe they just had toddlers under foot at home, they didn’t have the energy available for this. Back in 2006, I managed to publish an op-ed piece with the Dallas Morning News. And that was very early for me in this process. And it was after I did that, and I had my email address at the end of it, I was just flooded with emails. And that was when I really began to understand how pervasive this was. And most of those voices, most of those people are stories that no one ever hears about. And so that is always what has been a very powerful, made me feel a powerful sense of obligation. Because I’m very aware of those people. And I also want to say, the name of my book is Baptistland. And yes, I think there is this overarching kind of inculturation that this authoritarian type of Baptistland influences in our culture. But as you say, way back when, one of the earliest news media sources to begin reporting these stories was Associated Baptist Press, which is not affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, they’re Independent Baptist press. And they were some of the very first. We would not have some of the history we have and the documentation of this long problem if they had not been doing that work. And it continues today with Baptist News Global, which again, is not affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. I frequently write for them. So, yes, there have been other avenues, kind of on the fringes of Baptistland, that have been helpful in documenting this problem. And for that, I’ve been enormously grateful.   Julie Roys  43:14 So much has happened, especially in the past five years. The Houston Chronicle. That report showing literally hundreds of Southern Baptists leaders and volunteers engaged in credible abuse, effecting we know now over 700 victims. And again, that’s probably a fraction of it, because so many don’t speak, so many don’t come forward. We have Guidepost Solutions, who did their review, independent investigation of the executive committee the way that abuse survivors were treated. We know now that you were treated horribly, not just you, although you’re mentioned quite a bit in that report. But many survivors have been treated this way. SBC has initiated seemingly some reforms, the Caring Well Conference. But when it comes to substantive reform, have we seen substantive reform in the SBC?   CHRISTA BROWN  44:22 No, we have not. In my view, almost everything that they have done has been performative in nature. They still have no  names of credibly accused pastors on a database. They have talked and talked and talked. We’ve seen committee after committee, taskforce after task force. But no institutionally, they are not making progress. If they viewed this as a high priority, things would be very different. And you’re right. It is such a tragedy. It has been five years now since the Houston Chronicle Abuse of Faith series. It’s been two years since the Guidepost Report. That is enough time that we should see a great deal more change then we do. And yes, I’m named 70 times in that Guidepost Report, precisely because the executive committee treated me so terribly, and that’s now documented there. And that is just one report about one small entity of the Southern Baptist Convention, the executive committee. And what it reflects is pretty incredibly awful. And yet, the executive committee itself, it doesn’t make amends for its wrongdoing. It doesn’t impose consequences on those who treated me so terribly. No. And so what kind of example do they set for the rest of the Southern Baptist Convention? And they could take responsibility and accountability for their own wrong without anything to do with local church autonomy. They could do that themselves. No, they do not.   Julie Roys  46:15 And that was the big excuse for so many years was the SBC saying, listen, we’re a denomination that really honors local church autonomy. So we can’t really impose anything on these local churches. And you are asking for very common-sense reforms. I mean, a list for example, of all of the credibly accused or convicted pastors or leaders within the SBC. We just want a database, right? asking for this and them saying, oh, we can’t do that because of autonomy. And yet when this Guidepost Solutions report comes out, we find out they’re keeping their own list.   CHRISTA BROWN  46:52 Yes, they’ve been doing it all along, ever since 2007, while simultaneously claiming that they can’t keep a list. And of course, keeping records and sharing information on credibly accused clergy sex abusers, there’s nothing about that, that intrudes on the autonomy of local churches. To the contrary, that kind of information-sharing system could provide local churches with the resources that they need to exercise their autonomy more responsibly. That’s not on behalf of the local churches that their doing that. It’s on behalf of the larger denominational structures of the Southern Baptist Convention, that they’re protecting themselves.   Julie Roys  47:49 Wow. And we still don’t have it. We still don’t have a good database. This is not brain surgery, folks. This is really, really simple. But it shows the lack of will on the part of the Southern Baptist Convention. I think I just tweeted something out, not tweeted, posted on X. I can’t get used to that. But something recently; Southern Baptist minister saying, hey we’ve got the sex abuse crisis and everything else. But we need to get back to the really important things of winning people for Christ. That, to me is so infuriating that we don’t see, Jesus cared for the least of these, throughout Scripture talks about the least of these. How do we think what are we winning people to if our churches don’t reflect the heart of God? It’s so perverse and so frustrating. And I’m curious at this point, I mean, do you have hope for reform within the SBC? or do you feel like it’s a lost cause?   CHRISTA BROWN  48:56 I certainly don’t think that we will see meaningful reform in my lifetime. I really don’t. I just don’t think this institution is going that direction. They’ve given us no evidence on which to believe that they’re serious about this at all. And they have had multiple opportunities over the past 20 years to reckon with this, really serious opportunities, when they could have chosen to do so. And again, and again, they do not. So no, I do not hold hope for the institution. I do hold hope for individuals. I think there is value in putting the truth out there, regardless of what the Southern Baptist Convention may or may not ever do. Thank goodness, my hope does not rest on them.   Julie Roys  49:48 Amen. I mean, honestly, I think the truth has its own power and how it works itself out. That’s not in our hands. There’s nothing we can do about it. We’re not that powerful. But I know there’s a lot of different ways to look at this. I mean, some people come up to me and they’re like, Well, why is all of this being exposed now? What is going on? You know, it’s something awful in the church. And I’m like, Well, what we’re exposing most of what we’re exposing is decades old. Some of its recent, but a lot of it is decades old, that just hasn’t been exposed. And I do think God’s angry about it. I mean, that’s my personal belief on this. And that some of this is being exposed, that there is judgment coming. And there’s a reckoning coming. I do take heart in the fact that at least the truth is getting out there. But what people do with it, pretty tough. But I do think it will be a decade’s-long process, I thought at first it’d be a year or two few years. It’ll be a decade’s long process of this being exposed. But I do pray that something, some good structures grow out of it.   CHRISTA BROWN  51:13 I do believe that in years to come, and maybe decades to come, that ordinary human beings will look back on all this. Which is why I’m so glad things are being documented. We’ll look back on all this, and it will be so aberrant as to be almost inconceivable. And they will say, you? a multibillion-dollar tentacular institution? used this excuse of church autonomy to avoid protecting kids against clergy sex abuse? really? And it will seem so horrifying as to be almost inconceivable. I think that will happen. And this institution is on the wrong side of history.   Julie Roys  52:02 I agree with that.100%. And I’ll also say that when I talk to abuse survivors, it’s often not the abuser. I mean, the abuser obviously does horrific harm. But it’s the protectors, the allies, the bystanders that do nothing, or worse than that actually contribute to the crime by covering it up. That is what really, really causes the harm. And so I mean, to Southern Baptist leaders who probably won’t listen to this podcast, but if you do, shame on you! do something. I mean, this is unconscionable that you call yourselves Christians and you don’t do anything about abuse survivors. That is, to me, a test of the authenticity of your faith.   CHRISTA BROWN  52:52 You know you’re absolutely right Julie. This is perhaps the single most universal commonality that I find in survivor stories is almost invariably, as awful, and horrific as the sexual abuse itself is, what does even greater damage is how terribly survivors are treated by religious leaders, by churches, by people of faith. That is hard to reckon with and hard to come to terms with. It is one thing to come to terms with the evil that one man can do, but it is quite another thing to try to come to terms with, And everyone else acts as though it’s okay. And this kind of systemic institutional problem does not come about without the complicity of countless others who enable these things. And that is where the real problem lies.   Julie Roys  54:00 The fourth death that you talk about in your book is when your mother died, and your own sisters cut you out of an inheritance. And a lot of it though, based in the fact that your family didn’t want you talking about this. I can only imagine. I mean, I felt it as I read the book, but the pain that I’m sure you still carry from that. Why is it that your family wanted to silence you so much on this issue, so much that they would retaliate in this way?   CHRISTA BROWN  54:45 I think because they felt it brought shame onto the family. And because I grew up in a sort of family that says you pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You never talk about difficult things. You never talk about the family. My sister blamed me for what they said was making mom feel guilty because I had talked about this. Mom herself before she died, as I was speaking out numerous times would tell me that she thought I needed to own my part in it. Even though of course, I had been a kid. But she too had been, I think, misled, and manipulated by Brother Hayden, the senior pastor of our church at that time. And he’s now deceased. Because years later, many years later, I learned that he had told her that I would just forget about it. So that was a way of silencing my mom as well. And on some level, I think my mom must have felt guilty for that. As many mothers would feel guilt if something really terrible happens to a kid.  But I think she felt an enlarged level of guilt, which she could not really process. And it’s not as if people in my family went to counseling, right? And then because my mom felt guilty, my sister, I never put blame on her. I never ever put blame on her. But nevertheless, my sisters blamed me for making mom feel guilty. But, in some way if I think that’s all , scapegoating is something that human beings do. It’s something as old as time. And I think that’s what my sister did to me. Wrong. And in some ways, then they scapegoated me, and that was just kind of the rationalization for legitimizing what they did. And yes, to say it was painful, would be a real understatement. It was extremely painful.   Julie Roys  57:01 So sorry. You end your book with an afterword to childhood or clergy sex abuse survivors. And I know, our podcast, many survivors listen to this podcast. What message do you have for them?   CHRISTA BROWN  57:21 First and foremost, you are so worthy, you are a human being of infinite value. Whatever has been done to you within this faith community, it does not define who you are. Whoever you are at this point in your life right now, whether you are a person of faith or no faith, I don’t care. You are of infinite value and all of this other stuff that the faith community has communicated to you. Which abuse does this to people. It inculcates in you this notion that somehow you are not worthy. And that is a lie. That is a lie. So that would be the first thing I would say. And secondly, I would say, to all survivors and advocates, and really almost anyone out there, cultivate your skepticism. And sadly, when we see that faith itself is weaponized for power, that the accoutrements of faith are used to help propagandize and the perpetuation of status quo power structures, then it behooves us to apply our skepticism even to matters of faith. And I say, do not feel guilty for skepticism; not one bit. People need to earn trust. There’s nothing wrong with you for, for holding doubt.   Julie Roys  59:10 And I believe that if God is God, that he can handle our doubt, he can handle our hurt, he can handle our anger. And it’s justified in these cases. And it’s one of the greatest conundrums of the human experience. If God is great, and God is good, how do these horrible things happen to innocent people? It’s above my paygrade; it’s certainly one question that I’ve wrestled with an awful lot in my life and continue to, but I appreciate so much Christa, you’re honest, you’re honest  recounting your story and where you’re at, and you are a hero to the survivor community. And again, you have been in it so much longer than I have been. And I just look to folks like you who have really blazed a trail. And just so, so, so grateful for your work. So thank you.   CHRISTA BROWN  1:00:21 Thanks, Julie. Thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it.   Julie Roys  1:00:28 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’d like a copy of Christa’s book called Baptistland, you can get one when you give $30 or more to The Roys report this month. As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors, we simply have you, the people who care about exposing abuse and corruption in the church so she can be restored. So if you’d like to help us out and get a copy of Baptistland, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys report on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. I hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

For the last six weeks we've examined, and we've talked about the armor of God from the standpoint of having our loins girt about with truth… Having on the Breastplate of Righteousness… And our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. And then, we looked at the last part of verse 16, and talked about an important piece of our defensive weapons, the shield of faith. Now tonight, we'll continue on examining the whole armor of God, we'll pick it up in the first part of verse 17, the Helmet of Salvation. So grab your KING JAMES BIBLE, some coffee, and join us on our Thursday Night Bible Study. This is a modern podcast, best enjoyed with a modern podcast app like Fountain, Podcast Guru, or TrueFans… https://modernpodcastapps.com/  Or pick one from https://episodes.fm/1654620696  With one of these apps you can: Tune in to the LIVE episodes! Enjoy chapters, transcripts, music references and more… Send me a boost (which is a small amount of bitcoin, with a message. Don't worry, these apps make it easy) Enjoy, learn, and let me know what you think! This very modern podcast is hosted on https://podhome.fm/  - The most modern and easy way to create and host your podcast. Try it 2 months for free (on top of the 30-day trial) with promo code ABOUTPODCASTING You can support me and the show by: Sending me a boost (or stream sats) with a modern podcast app Making a donation on my website Sharing this show with your family, friends and followers on your social media. (00:00:57) Introduction to the Sword of the Spirit podcast with host Joseph Russiello. (00:02:49) Discussion on Benny Hinn's repentance and criticism within the church. (00:31:33) Southern Baptist Church ordaining a woman as an executive pastor, contrary to traditional beliefs. (00:44:38) Bible reading and prayer before delving into Ephesians chapter 6 for a Bible study on the whole armor of God. (00:49:27) The importance of the helmet of salvation for a soldier (01:32:22) Prayer for salvation and blessings (01:33:59) Introduction to break and upcoming segments - Joe Russiello - Claud Chereji https://getalby.com/p/sotspodcast  https://www.swordofthespiritpodcast.com 

We have a nice chat with our friend Russell, board member of The Clergy Project. He shares his story of being a believer, becoming a preacher in the Southern Baptist Church, and then losing his faith. Great conversation! The Clergy Project: https://clergyproject.org/ Want to be a guest on the show? Fill out this form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf6XzjOzMDJN_EcTNT6PBZsG_OTa5qnWS--HjzmNO3h2_la6A/viewform?usp=sf_link Support us on Patreon!: ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/burningeden666⁠⁠ Check out the Merch Store!!: ⁠⁠https://the-burning-eden-podcast.myspreadshop.com Helpful resource if you're deconstructing:⁠⁠ https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org Registers to vote!: https://www.vote.org  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/burningeden666/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/burningeden666/support

We have a nice chat with our friend Russell, board member of The Clergy Project. He shares his story of being a believer, becoming a preacher in the Southern Baptist Church, and then losing his faith. Great conversation! The Clergy Project: https://clergyproject.org/ Want to be a guest on the show? Fill out this form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf6XzjOzMDJN_EcTNT6PBZsG_OTa5qnWS--HjzmNO3h2_la6A/viewform?usp=sf_link Support us on Patreon!: ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/burningeden666⁠⁠ Check out the Merch Store!!: ⁠⁠https://the-burning-eden-podcast.myspreadshop.com Helpful resource if you're deconstructing:⁠⁠ https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org Registers to vote!: https://www.vote.org  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/burningeden666/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/burningeden666/support

I recently came across the content of Dr. Andrew Bauman, a licensed mental health counselor whose mission is to provide high-quality experiential, narrative-based psychotherapy from a Christian worldview. His writings display eye-opening perspectives on religion and relationships that we aren't used to hearing from a male Christian leader. I'm joined by Dr. Andrew to discuss how the church gaslights women and much more. Join us! Show Highlights: ●      Dr. Andrew's path from Southern Baptist Church pastor to therapist as he deconstructed his faith and faced stark realizations ●      The big, red-flag problems in what some churches teach and practice about women, leadership, sexism, and abuse ●      The facts about sexism and abuse experienced by women in the church ●      “How we are in our sexuality is how we are in our spirituality.” ●      Many churches demonstrate benevolent or ambivalent sexism. ●      Thoughts and feelings about I Timothy 2:11-12 being weaponized against women ●      Dr. Andrew's thoughts on how the church weaponizes forgiveness ●      The correlation between pornography and violence against women ●      The biblical account of Jesus and the woman at the well—and how He broke decades of prejudices and sexism in His own culture ●      Other examples in scripture of how Jesus valued women—and how the church “gets it wrong” so often ●      Understanding sexuality and consent   Resources and Links: Connect with Dr. Andrew Bauman: Website/Blog/Resources, The Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health & Trauma Recommended Reading: books by Natalie Hoffman, Sarah McDugal, and Sheila Gregoire  Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook Get KC's book, How to Keep House While Drowning We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

Marie Griffith, PhD, John C. Danforth Distinguished Professor in the Humanities at Washington University in St. Louis. She served for 12 years (2011-2023) as the director of the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics and the editor of the Center's journal, Religion & Politics. Her research focuses on American Christianity, including the changing profile of American evangelicals and ongoing conflicts over gender, sexuality, and marriage. Author of several books, including Moral Combat: How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics, the book discussed in this episode. Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos or misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Hello. How are you? How are you hanging in there? I hope you're doing okay. I'm doing semi okay. It's been a lot inundation with this very real, very damaging type of abuse. One thing that you may or may not know is folks who have experienced spiritual abuse and folks who have experienced sexual abuse.They're very similar to each other. Spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are very, very similar. The impact is very, very similar because it is so, so vulnerable. You are so vulnerable when this happens and it violates our intimacy and it violates our very souls in a way that maybe other abuse doesn't. So if you are traumatized.By the abuse that you experienced in a church [00:01:00] or a high control environment or religious environments in your family. There's a reason for that. It makes a lot of sense. It's very, very serious trauma. So one of the things that we discussed in this episode is how the folks who. experience sexual abuse when they go to the religious institution where they experience that abuse and say, Hey, help me, this happened, this was awful, please help me.When they get dismissed or falsely accused or sidelined or silenced, that that is sometimes worse than the sexual abuse that they experienced in that institution. This episode is with Marie Griffith. She is the author of Moral Combat, How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics. It's an intense book.A lot of research went into this book. She's also a scholar [00:02:00] and a professor of religion at Washington University. And one of the things we will also discuss in this episode is how she literally taught a class on abuse in the church in a secular university. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. Great conversation, lots of mind blowing moments about the connection between sex and sexual abuse and the rampant abuse that is happening in the evangelical church right now.Enjoy, or don't enjoy, but take it in for sure. And as always, take care of yourself, get some rest, give yourself some time after this episode to go for a walk, take a sip of water, breathe. You're okay, wherever you are, you are okay, take a deep breath, you are safe, you are here, you are now, you are present, you're going to be okay.[00:03:00] Here is my interview with Marie Griffith. Katherine: Hi, Catherine. Oh, how are you? How are you? And I have your big book here. This was a lot of work. She took this.Marie: And that was like I don't even want to tell you how many years. I mean, it was really sort of 15 years. I did other things as I was doing that, Katherine: but yeah. Yeah, just like the amount of research that went into just like one chapter I was like, this was a very large endeavor. But how are you this morning? How are you doing? How is your writing? Is it like a writing sabbatical? Is that kind of what this season is called?Marie: Yeah, I'm on, I'm on research leave. You know, it's just a standard leave that scholars get every few years. So but yeah, it's focused on working on this book about sexual clergy, sexual Katherine: abuse. Oh, my gosh. Did I know that? Did you tell me about that? I don't know if I knew from Marie: that [00:04:00] I had taught that course on the abuse crisis in modern Christianity.And so the reason I taught the course was because I started doing research on clergy sexual abuse in both the U. S. Catholic Church And evangelical groups, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention, although not only Katherine: the Southern. Okay. I don't know if I knew that the book itself was about clergy sexual abuse.So I definitely want to hear so much about that. Really excited to talk to you. I'm just like, as I'm like reading this book, I'm like, okay. We just need to be friends because I like everything that you research and everything that you're, I'm like, it's all like stuff that I'm like thinking about constantly.And then just like even reading your book. And then when Megan told me that she literally had a class on like abuse that is happening in the church, I was like. Wait, who, like, led this? Whose idea was it to have this class? Like, tell me, tell me so much more. And so that's why I was, like, very [00:05:00] interested to talk to you.And so I would just love to hear very just to start how you got into doing what you're doing and how this became important to you. Marie: Sure, sure. Yeah. And thank you so much. I really love your podcast and admire the work that you do too, Catherine. So thank you. Well, I am from Chattanooga, Tennessee originally.I was raised Southern Baptist. I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s. So as you may know, that was a time of just tremendous change in the culture, but also for Southern Baptists in particular, and within evangelical Protestantism more generally. The church I grew up in was a really, I thought of it as just a very kind of, you know, ordinary.Church, it was 1st Baptist Church Chattanooga, you know, the kind of flagship Southern Baptist Church of the city. But the, the kind of tensions in the Southern Baptist Convention. Between, [00:06:00] you know, for shorthand, let's say the fundamentalist and the moderates, because that's, you know, what they called each other, at least at the time was really strong.And my mother was the pastor's secretary over a number of years, and she cared deeply about these issues. My dad was the deacon chair for a number of years. So this was dinner table conversation. What was happening within the denomination and. My parents were both moderates. And so I kind of heard that side of it.And it was really painful. A lot of the pastors that I had that worked at our church felt very betrayed by things that happened, convention politics and all of that. And when I left for college, I thought I left it all behind. I mean, it was really painful enough that I just turned my back on a lot of that.But I found myself studying religion and really sort of wondering how all of that came to be. So in some ways, I mean, I think that has, explains a lot about my career, why I became a [00:07:00] scholar of American religion. I've focused on evangelicals. I focused on women. I focused on debates over women's roles, sexuality, and sex.And now clergy sexual abuse. So it really is. There's a personal story behind that, as I think it is for so many scholars. Katherine: Absolutely. And then have you been able to trace? So you're working on a book right now about clergy sexual abuse. And then your book that I was reading before we interviewed.Moral combat. The subtitle is how sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. Have you been able to trace? The link from this divide to clergy sexual abuse, is that pretty, a pretty clear link for you? Marie: I think so. And, you know, I, critics may argue with me, and they have every right to argue with me, but what I see from the sources, the [00:08:00] long historical sources that I've looked at over many archives that really begin in the really the late 19th century, but certainly by the 1920s and the birth control movement has been a real power struggle within American Christianity, Catholicism as well as, as, as Protestantism, I should say over leadership, over theology, and maybe more than anything else over the appropriate role of women and, and how to think about gender, how God created men and women.and what their appropriate roles are supposed to be. I think we can see that debate starting with The birth control movement, really going back before that, but my book started with the birth control movement, moving through debates over literary censorship sex education in the public schools, homosexuality, same sex rights, abortion, reproductive rights, sort of all the way through.And so, you know, that's, that's an [00:09:00] oversimplification to some degree, but I do think that those wars over sex. over gender, over, over women and, and women's roles in the public sphere and in the family explain an awful lot of our conflicts culture wars conflicts as they are. And, and I do think that's what's led us to the current moment and the, the real fervor over clergy sexual abuse.Katherine: Yeah, and just all of it packaged together when you, and when you put sex sexual abuse itself, and you, and you realize that sexual abuse itself is really not about sex, it is about power, and you, and you see the power dynamic happening in these debates, and like, it's about who's going to get it. To be in charge, basically and, and then you add that in with this dynamic of sexual abuse happening and like less about just [00:10:00] urges that need to be fulfilled, but more about like who gets to be in charge and who gets to have a say and who gets to decide.It makes so much more sense through that lens than just like. Sex addiction which is what it sometimes gets boiled down to, but it's, but that's, it's way more than that one. It's something this rampant. And so I see the connection. And it's, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty clear to me. But I would love to hear So you taught a class and what was the class called?Can you confirm the name of Marie: that? Sure. Yeah. The class was called the abuse crisis in modern Christianity. Katherine: Okay. And what led you to teaching that class? And then what were, what were the, the, what was the process of getting that class to Marie: be taught? Yeah, yeah, no, and it's maybe my favorite class I've ever taught, so I just want to say that at the outset, which sounds strange [00:11:00] because it was also the most painful class I've ever taught, the most difficult class I've ever taught.You know, you all, this sort of Me Too, Church Too movement that's been so extraordinarily important over the last, seven or eight, 10 years, again, going longer than that, even, but really these this past decade. I have so many undergraduate students who have come to me with stories of sexual assault or sexual abuse, and I realize it's something that college students are grappling with.All the time. But there are, at least in the institutions where I've taught, there are almost no classes, you know, that address that it's it's sort of we're expecting our student life personnel and our R. A. S. And people who aren't even trained in some cases to kind of be the ones to manage. sex on campus or the sexual lives of our students.And so, and as I was doing the research on clergy sexual [00:12:00] abuse and just realizing how rampant some of this has long been and still is, it felt like something that I thought students would take a real interest in. So I taught the course, I put it on the books for fall of 2022. I limited it at first to 15 students and I immediately, when registration opened, it immediately filled up and I had.double that number of students on the wait list. And so I wound up with about30 students that, that were there off all undergrad, except for one graduate student. And that was, that was Megan. Katherine: And then and so you didn't have any trouble like hot, like saying, Hey, I want to offer this class. Was that something that you did you have any hurdles with the institution offering the class?Marie: Well, that's that's a very good question. You're the first person to ask me that. As it happened, I was at the time the director of the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics, which is our unit. And [00:13:00] so I was able to just offer the class and it really didn't go through any kind of Katherine: formal approach.I could do whatever I want. Marie: if I teach the course again, which I definitely plan on doing, it's possible that I would get some pushback. But the course really it was, it got very high course evaluations. I think the students were saying, these are conversations we all need to be having, and we're so thankful to be having it.So I think I would be able to make the argument that this is an important course Katherine: to keep on the books. Absolutely. And then you had, I know that Megan had mentioned I think like a former nun and like a former prosecutor that you had in. Was it more of a like a, a workshop style, lecture style, or was it more like you teaching and then you would occasionally have people come in?Marie: Yeah. Well, the course met twice a week for an hour and 20 minutes, and I did very little lecturing. I mean, I would set out the context, you know, for a short period [00:14:00] at the beginning. But as you say, I brought in a lot of experts. I brought in lawyer, a lawyer who has prosecuted these cases and worked a lot with sexual abuse survivors.I brought in Catholic survivors. I brought in a Catholic survivor who is now working for the Catholic church on prevention programs. You know, and has very much considers himself a devout Catholic still archivist, just a whole range of different types of people. We talked to journalists. I just wanted them to really see Things from a wide range of perspectives.I will say that when I started the course, most of my research until then had focused on the Catholic Church. So it was maybe overly focused on Catholicism. And I wish I had had time to do more. with evangelicals, with Mormons their orthodox Jewish cases and coverups of sexual abuse. Muslim communities in [00:15:00] the U.S. have grappled with this. So, you know, it's almost an overwhelming amount of material and WashU is a very multicultural, multi religious university. So, you know, I think covering these power dynamics, as you say, this is not just about sex, it's really about power and gender. Covering these across different religious traditions, I think is a really important, Katherine: you know, thing to do.Absolutely. And I still think that the Catholic church is the most well known. I was at a, I was at a class. Sunday night and I had your book with me to just like read while when there was like not stuff going on or while I was like waiting for people and and somebody was like, Oh, what's, what's that book about?And so I like, I talked a little bit about the book and then said, I was interviewing someone who taught a class and abuse in the church. And they were like, Oh, like the Catholic church. And I was like, well, I was like actually like I focus on like the evangelical church. And the person that I was talking to you was actually someone who like attends.Church [00:16:00] and and so it was almost like they just like had no idea that that, but that was like happening within the actual like regular everyday evangelical churches, I think a lot of evangelicals will still try to like, think, oh, that's a Catholic church problem and that happened over there in the Catholic Church, when it is.very rampant in the evangelical church across every denomination. Like I haven't, I have not met or encountered the denomination yet. That was like, Oh no, we're good. We don't have that. That doesn't, that doesn't happen. And so I'm really, really grateful that you were teaching that class and just like thinking of the students that got to be in there and be a part of it.And I got to have that conversation. I'm just like. Woo, would I, would I love, you know, I went to seminary and I'm like for grad school and I'm like, would I have loved to have a class like that in seminary? Yes, but they're not going to have that kind of class in seminary. Like critiquing the church that they're like creating ministers for.[00:17:00] And, and someone asked me that the other day of like, did you ever have a class on like abuse in the church? And did anyone ever talk about like clergy abuse or spiritual abuse or anything in seminary? I was like, no. It was like it did not exist. It was like that didn't happen at all. Marie: Well, I think, I think you're absolutely right.I am hopeful. I feel like in a lot of the conversations that I'm having now, and I, you know, I'm doing interviews with survivors, but also with. Pastors with people working for the church, developing curricula and training programs, you know, for pastors in seminary. I mean, I actually feel some hope that there's so much energy around bringing some of that knowledge into the seminary classroom requiring.No, in some way, either at the local church level or at seminary. Now it's difficult because as you know, church autonomy is a hugely important principle for groups like Baptists [00:18:00] and other, a lot of other evangelical groups. And so requiring a church. To have a training or requiring certain courses, even in seminary is it's it's hard.And I think a lot of these denominations right now are debating this issue. But still, I think people realize more and more. I mean, the Southern Davis Convention has had Terrible PR over the last several years around its own cover ups of sexual abuse. It's starting to look as bad as the Catholic Church's cover up, right?And so I think Southern Baptist leaders I've talked to, they know they've got to do something. And not just for optics, they've really got to do something, you know big to, to bring knowledge to this issue. So I am hopeful that some of that, what you didn't have in seminary You know, the next generation is going to have some version of Katherine: it, at least.Absolutely. Yeah. Cause I just, I mean, you can't ignore it at this point. It's, it's everywhere. It is everywhere. What was the response? [00:19:00] So you said that you got a really good response from your students in terms of just like evaluations at the end. What was some of like the personal response of students within the class?Marie: Yeah, and I want to say, you know, I gave a lot of trigger warnings at the outset. In the course description, I said, if this is a personal issue for you, Really think hard before you take this class, but come talk to me and I can help you find resources if you want to find resources, but I warned people we're going to read graphic, you know, accounts of sexual abuse.It's hard, even for those of us who are not survivors and I do not consider myself a survivor. It's still it's grueling. It's wrenching it. Keeps you up at night when you read the stuff. So I, I really warned students and I warned them on the first day of class and, and all of that nonetheless, you know, kind of midway through, I knew that I had three or four students who were struggling they [00:20:00] were not getting their work in, you know, I reached out to them and they admitted to me, like this was bringing stuff up for them.So I found myself just saying, don't worry about deadlines. Like take care of yourself, you know, and I told students in class if you need to take a break when we're in class, you know, I've never said this in any other class, but I'm going to tell you now you can walk out and walk around and get a drink of water and come back when you can.And I'm not going to penalize you for that. I, you know, your mental health. is most important here and come talk to me. So students expressed appreciation, you know, in their evaluations that I had been flexible about that as I think anyone should be. One suggestion they did have for me about changing in the future is that my very first minister probably should have been a counselor, probably should have been someone who could come in and talk about trauma and not just the trauma that abuse survivors that we're reading about have suffered, but trauma that you might feel.You know, absorbing [00:21:00] these stories. And so I take that to heart. And I think when I teach the class again, I teach the class again that I'm going to do that first and make sure that I've got better supports set up for students. If, if the, the sort of secondary trauma or tertiary trauma of reading and absorbing all of this gets Katherine: to be too much.Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I can imagine that that would be, that would be. A great idea. To start it out that way. What were some of the people that you brought in, was there someone that like really stood out to you that a story that they told really resonated with you? Marie: Yeah. Well, you know, they, they all stand out for me, but I'll just tell a couple of stories that I think the students found particularly meaningful. And I should say again, to go back to the personal and the student said, it wasn't just hard for them. You know, they loved the class.They loved getting to think about this and process this. And I think they all. felt that this would really shape them going forward. Help [00:22:00] them be better friends and, and helpers of other people who've gone through trauma. You know, I think for a lot of us who aren't survivors, we don't realize how deep the trauma goes until you read and learn.You've got to be educated about that. And I think these guests really helped do that. So I had guests two of the guests have been. Leaders in an organization called snap the survivors network of those abused by priests, which was founded primarily as a Catholic organization for Catholic survivors of clergy abuse, and they really went back into first kind of realizing that the abuse that they had experienced, trying to tell going to church authorities and having in their cases door slammed against them over and over again.And that the trauma of that was worse than the original sexual abuse itself. Right. I'm sure you hear this over and over again. Very Katherine: common. Very common. [00:23:00] Marie: And I think for students to hear their story, but also, you know, they helped create SNAP. They've been public spokespeople across the country. They have helped so many people, so many victims.And, you know, I think educated so many of us who are not victims. about this, that the students found them really inspiring. That was, that was really great. And David Clossie, who was the longtime leader of the SNAP, I'm just lucky because he lives here in St. Louis. And so he was able to visit our class in person along with Barb Doris who was also a SNAP leader, but he's a very emotional person still.And he cries a lot and he'll tell you that. So he'll tell stories and he is, his emotions are right there. But he has also processed it. He has sort of come out on top of it and he's just a really inspiring figure. So students really loved hearing from him. Another standout, I'll just mention just one more.We had a local lawyer and I won't mention her [00:24:00] name because she's really had a tough time. She has worked on a lot of different clergy, sexual abuse cases in the states of Illinois and Missouri primarily, and the laws here. are really, really tough. I would say they are stacked against victims in a lot of very concrete ways.And she talked to us about that and really educated us about the law. And it got so bad for her that after 25, 30 years or so of practicing and working in that area, she just was burned out. She realized that she She could even be a suicide risk after all that she had to leave. And so she went and is now in a completely different field of law.And the students were really, I think, moved by her. Some of my students want to go to law school. They want to work in that area, but they also recognized, you know, what she had to say about the toll that this can take on people. Who really try to find justice for survivors, because it's a lot [00:25:00] harder in some states than others, but it's hard everywhere.Yeah. Katherine: You know? Yeah. It's just, yeah. It really, the justice system doesn't work in favor of of someone coming forward and saying, this happened. Especially if there's, if there's not like, Capturing physical evidence of something like that is just not easy. If it if it even is possible. Yeah, that is, that is really really incredible.Did you have anything else to say about the class and then I would love to just talk a little bit about book. Marie: . No, I would just say that I would encourage if anybody is interested in thinking about teaching a class like this for undergrads, for grad students, seminary students, feel free to contact me, rmg567 at gmail.com. And also I'll just say, I'm still, you know, interviewing survivors and people and would love to hear from folks, but I would just really encourage people to consider doing it. I think. Think it's a very, I, I'm so glad that I was able to do it, [00:26:00] and I will keep teaching that class until I can't teach anymore in retirement.Katherine: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm really, really glad that there are dozens and dozens of more students who are going to get that class so I'm really glad to hear that. So switching to talking about this book, Moral Combat that I mentioned.Earlier, the subtitle has sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. And then I want to hear about a little more about the current book that you're working on as well. But my main question about this book is why sex? Why is sex such a big deal? What is it about sex that is making it this thing that divides people?Marie: Catherine, that is the question. That is absolutely the question. That's really the question that sent me on the journey to write this. And I don't know if even now I have an answer to it. And really, I came to it thinking like, you know, sex is not a big [00:27:00] topic in the New Testament. It's really not compared to caring for the poor.Caring for the poor, caring for people, helping the world, helping those in need, visiting the prisoner, feeding the hungry. Those are the themes, right? Those are the crucial, crucial themes. They're not the only themes, but that, to me, is so obviously the core that Jesus taught, that that should be the obsession.And it's not. It's, it's not, it's not to say churches don't care about those things, of course they do. Catholic, Protestant, they all care about those things, but the thing that has seemed to be the obsession is around disciplining people for their sexual behavior. And that just struck me and, and it was true in my Southern Baptist upbringing.I mean, that was just like, you know, a very strong theme in life generally. So I think I've always wondered. Why is something like [00:28:00] that so important? And you know, it's partly, I mean, our sexuality goes to the core of who we are, right? In every aspect of our lives. And if we wanna discipline people into being certain kinds of people, that's sort of a really key area.You know, that, that the rules need to be sort of upheld and abided by. But to me, I honestly feel and I know a lot of folks would disagree with me on this, but I think a lot of Christian leaders have really gone way beyond anything, you know, biblical to create systems and structures and rules. That, that weren't really of, of great interest or concern to Jesus or to to any of these early teachers.The early church fathers, you know, once Jesus is dead and Paul's dead and the kind of church is sort of coming into being in the early centuries, those leaders carried up, cared a lot about sex and disciplining the flesh and celibacy of [00:29:00] course, and, and thought the body was evil and thought sexuality was sort of this evil demonic force.That's kind of where a lot of this influence comes from. If, if you, if you're more interested in going back to a biblical view of Christianity, I just think a lot has been invented, has been weaponized, has been interpreted a specific way to make sex more important than it, than it really ought to be for, for Christian for Christians generally.Would Katherine: you say if... If it's about power, let's just theorize that it's about power. Is there a possibility that sex is just an easy thing to control? And it's more just like open and, you know, like, you can hide it but like something like, attracted to the same sex and you want to have that kind of relationship or, or like that physical act of Being with someone and having [00:30:00] intercourse and like, like those are just like physical things and it's just like an easier thing to control and because it's more like out there could that be a reason why this is the thing if it's about power?I don't know.Marie: No, I think that's definitely part of it. And of course, sex is tied to reproduction, too, right? So it's not just about sexual behavior. It's about, you know, women bearing children and whose children will they be bearing. So, you know, we know that in cultures all across time and place that we've been able to study, sex is also very important in societies.It's not just Christians who have made sex important. So I want to be clear about that. And part of that is because it is still, in many cases, about power. Men want to know that the children their wives are bearing are their children. Like, that's, that's one thing that anthropologists have, have a lot of times talked about.Kinship relations and, you know, these kinds of things. So, sex has been important in part because it is... [00:31:00] deeply tied up in in reproduction. And, and I think our reproductive politics today, a lot of the, you know, the, the refusal to see that the way to reduce the abortion rate is to make contraception more available to prevent problem pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies.But you don't see this huge push on the part of Christians, mostly. To provide free birth control and to make sure that there's sex education in the public schools of a certain kind, those issues often, you know, are still kind of, you know, forbidden and go with anti abortion politics. So I think the reproduction part is really a key part of this, but, but yes, I think it is also about power and.restricting women's movements, restricting you know, this huge portion of their lives and, and, and making a certain model of marriage, you know, seem like the norm, seem like the God ordained norm. There's one norm for marriage and, and that's [00:32:00] it. And you know, really, I think there's had to be a lot of.Inventiveness to make that seem like, you know, something that God so deeply cared about right, Katherine: right, right. So would you say that aside from it being a sex thing, that it really is a gendered thing? I know you had mentioned that earlier and like more about dare we say it's control of women and it's not just about.celibacy and like purity. It's really about the purity of women. Oh Marie: yeah. I, I, I think the sources bear that out very, very clearly that the, you know, the, the sort of purity obsession has always been the purity of women. It's not to say men's purity hasn't been talked about and emphasized to a degree, but men have been far less punished for sex outside of marriage and sometimes not punished at all compared to the, the sort of discipline.of women for, for, for that. So [00:33:00] I think it's very much about gender. The book, Moral Combat, you may remember, you know, I start the book with the suffrage movement, the women's suffrage movement, because that, to me, in some ways, is, is one of the, the kind of, of the core culture war issue we we almost think now so women got the right to vote in 1920, of course, and we kind of think of that as like, Okay, well, that happened and then everything you know, everybody accepted that.But in fact, there was so much energy against allowing women to vote, you know, it was very close that the, you know, the states had to ratify, you know, this amendment Tennessee my home state was the final one to ratify it. I'm proud to say. My grandmother was a suffragist who, who marched for that, but it wasn't easy.And the animus against women voting or women having something like equal rights, at least in that one sphere, you know, that animus didn't go away. And so I think a lot of what [00:34:00] you see in these later movements against birth control. Against homosexuality, against sex education, against reproductive rights.The roots are there in the anti suffrage movement. So it's very much about women, about a desire for women to stay in their place. And let me say clearly, it's not just men who have wanted that. I don't write this as a men against women yeah.just as many women are invested in that kind of patriarchal hierarchical system because they benefit from it in some way economically, socially. And so patriarchy, or I want to say misogyny, these are systems held up, I think equally by men and women in many, many cases. And and that's a crucial part of the story that we also sometimes I think tend to forget.Katherine: Yeah. And I think it's a, it's harder. , I would just say from just like [00:35:00] purely from a personal personal perspective to see women fighting so hard for these things. And when I see women upholding it and defending it just it feels very different and it lands very different than like a man.Upholding it and and defending it as well. But it's also true. It's also very, very true. And, and I, and I learned that very quickly working in and very patriarchal spaces that just because there was a woman in the room didn't make it safer and didn't necessarily mean that women were actually respected in that space., and yeah, absolutely. And then I don't remember the name of the person, but the person that was fighting for Susan's Someone maybe fighting for contraception and like the main argument was that it was gonna allow women to be loose and, and have sex with anyone they wanted. And, and she was just like, give us a, give us a break.Maybe we just like, just want to have freedom. Maybe that, [00:36:00] maybe that's what it, maybe it has nothing to do with promiscuity and just like, just like that being the argument, like, and that is. It's still the argument and that's why I like the church isn't, you know, pushing contraception and making contraception available as a, as a potential solution to mitigating abortion is because it's, it's that same thing, like present day, that same argument is just going to give them license.Yet we're not talking about that for men, like men who don't have to most of the time. deal with a fear of getting pregnant. Like that's not something that men have to carry. So we're not worried about them. We're not worried about it in that, in that context. And so, oh my gosh, there's so many, so many things.Is there anything else you want to say about that? And then I'd, I'd love to hear about your, your latest that you're working on now. Marie: Sure. I think you're right. I mean, just. stress. I think what [00:37:00] you're saying is we're still having the same debates that we were having in the 1920s.It's a maybe a modernized version of it. But I do think our contemporary debates over abortion and and even to some degree, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, you know, I write about Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas and also about Paula Jones and Bill Clinton, the kind of sexual harassment wars of the 1990s, some of which has been a little bit Thank forgotten.Those were really critical to because it was about how are women treated in the workplace and what is okay and what is not okay. And it's shocking to think what we used to tolerate. You know what? I mean, my mother, who's now in her eighties, she'll tell me what she tolerated as a secretary, you know, in the 19 sixties and seventies and in the church.Well, yes, in the church and outside the church, both the kind of soft sexism that we all accepted. Not so soft sometimes. So anyway, I would just say that I do think we learn a lot from history [00:38:00] and that reading up on these earlier debates, I think really sheds important light. On the kinds of arguments that we're still having now, both within the church and within our larger culture.Yeah, Katherine: and then just like the context of history about just like history just like repeats itself and then repeats itself and repeats itself and, and it's typically about one group of people or one set of people wanting to be in charge, and in America, it's about like the religious right. It seems wielding Christianity and this war for morality as the way to have power and be in charge and just even just thinking about like very recent election and political figures who, who didn't give a shit about, actual Christianity.They just got people. You know, whipped up into a frenzy and made them fearful of, , the trans, the trans [00:39:00] agenda, the figurative trans agenda. And before that it was the gay agenda, and then the feminists, and the feminists are after your children, and and then, and then now, like, making abortion the thing and it's about, like, saving children, but it's not about saving children, it's about this, like, control thing and so that to me is, I mean, just intersects with my work, and is, is pretty scary to me that this, And there was kind of just this out of body experience a little bit just like reading the book and thinking about that and then I'll have those moments at times of like, this was the sect, and I came from a very fundamentalist world that was, was very militant in fighting abortion and getting, you know, Christian people that they claimed were Christians into politics and fighting, against like sex, sex education in school because it would just give people license to promiscuity.They were very, very militant and it's just a very out of body experience to think like that was a sect that I used to be a part of. And I believed they were good people, and [00:40:00] some of them are very good people and, and that the outside world was bad, like those, those bad people that are pro abortion or pro, pro same sex marriage, and to think just like how militant it was.Now, like looking back on it and just like how just active it was and genuinely good people within it. Absolutely. 100 percent at the same time, people who are just wielding this for power and, and wanting to like claim all of this power in the name of Jesus. And it's, it's scary. It's, it's real.Marie: I would just say I, yeah, that is, that's it's so true. I, I see it as a true tragedy that Christianity has been so weaponized in this country and elsewhere, not just in the U. S. And all the time and energy and money that has gone into some issues at the [00:41:00] expense to, in my mind.Of the poor and the suffering and other, you know, really critical issues and how blase we are about economic inequality in this country and, and the state of the poor and suffering of many kinds. To me, it's a tragedy, you know that that we allowed ourselves to get so hung up on particular issues, and have just been almost blinded.To what I see is really the core message, Katherine: In the Bible. How does that. Message tie in with what you're working on right now. Marie: Yeah. Well, it's you know So now this is a hard it's a it's an even more grueling Project as you can imagine because a lot of my sources now are interviews And I really spent a few years now and i'm really in the thick of it now that i'm on leave Interviewing, you know, survivors mostly, but also family members, pastors, you know, people, as I said earlier, just like [00:42:00] my class, different visitors coming from different places, but the vast majority are survivors, survivors of childhood sexual abuse, of abuse when they were teenagers, and also adults, you know, adults, largely women I've interviewed so far, but of course there are men too, you know, who have been abused as men sexually abused.And abuse happens everywhere. You know, abuse happens absolutely everywhere. The church is not, you know, the only place it happens. But cover ups feel different in different spaces, I think. And the, the degree of the cover up in the church, Is so disillusioning for so many people, the spiritual abuse, the spiritual damage that that has caused people in many ways.That's sort of the big takeaway for me right now is just how profoundly damaging. Sexual abuse is for people when they are not believed, when they are not treated with love and care. [00:43:00] And, when they are prevented from seeking justice, it's crazy making. I mean, people can just go absolutely crazy.And the degree, you know, the levels of substance abuse and all kinds of. You know, self destructive behaviors that emerge from that is just stunning. And, we've learned a lot about this since 2002. And that 2002 is an important year because that was when the Boston Globe broke the big stories, the early stories about abuse in the Catholic Church in the, in the archdiocese of Boston.And, you know, that kind of began this trajectory of attention to the abuse crisis, at least within the Catholic Church, and then more recently in Protestant groups, too. But I think we still have no idea the scope, the scale, the damage that has been done and is still being done because of the cover ups, because of bullying by pastors who refuse to acknowledge this problem [00:44:00] and women who enabled them pastors wives or, or church staff or others who just don't want to believe this is true.And so really, enable abusive environments to thrive. It's a hard subject. And, you know, I want to write a book people want to read. So I've got to find a way to be, you know, I want to say Here's what we do, like here's where hope is because otherwise who wants to read a book that's such a downer? But I think we all need to be better educated about the realities out there so that we can be equipped to know what to do about them.Katherine: Mm hmm. Is there any Distinction made or is this part of the scope of the book where you're outlining just the difference between someone who experiences that sexual abuse and cover up within a spiritual context versus. Or, you know, Hollywood, is there a distinction made at all?Marie: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the guests who came to my class, we asked them this and I asked [00:45:00] survivors this, I think so because so let me separate out Catholics and Protestants here because one, one big difference between, I think what Catholics are taught about priests and what Protestants are taught about ministers is the sort of stature of the priest.So traditionally Catholics were really taught that priests. It's were of a higher order, almost a human being, they, they had a sacramental status closer to God. They were the closest thing that anyone was going to get to God. And the kind of deference that that created is part of why children felt they couldn't tell if a priest abused them, because it was, this was God.And I think the damage for them, it was as if God Had done the abuse and that's very hard to get over and I've heard this from some Protestants, too I think evangelicals at least for me don't have quite the same, you know, the the pastor is still a human being He's perhaps been called, he's [00:46:00] got a calling.And so there's still, you know, a lot of deference given to him. But I thought when I started this project, okay, there's a difference in how pastors are viewed. But I am coming to realize that in a lot of these evangelical churches, It's pretty close to the same as the Catholics were taught that pastor.He's on a higher level And what he says, people believe there's been a lot of abuse of women working for churches. You probably know if I had a lesson for listeners right now, I would say if any pastor comes to you And asks you to come work for his church A red flag up in your mind because he, if, if the pastor needs a new church staff, they need to open the search.They need to go through HR. They need to have a whole process like companies have, like universities have not, you are being targeted. I think in many, many cases, if someone comes to you and says, Hey, you know, you're doing a great job in the church. Come work for me. I have heard so many [00:47:00] stories from women now.That's where it starts. Or, or maybe she was already being grouped, you know, she's come to the pastor for counseling, she's having difficulty in her marriage or some kind of difficulty with her children. And just, there's a certain kind of pastor who will target the vulnerable in that way.Now, let me say clearly the vast majority of pastors are not abusers, I definitely believe that. But. There, there are a lot more than I think most of us are aware of people or maybe that because once they reach that position of power, they become sort of convinced of their own authority in a way and they become abusive.I don't know the psychology of it. I don't know how all that works. But I think that's really critically important for people to, to recognize. Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, and I would say like maybe the distinction between like the Catholicism, the elevation of a priest is it's elevated institutionally, whereas, at least what I have seen [00:48:00] when it's a pastor in that place they've sort of put themselves there, and it's not necessarily.Institutionally across the board, that's what the institution is pointing people towards, but they have managed to get into that position and created that for themselves. Marie: That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. And I think that's a very good point, but the ones who are best at it, they persuade everyone in the congregation that they deserve to be in that place.Right. But you're right. It's the kind of, the, the charismatic leader, you know, the Ravi Zacharias or, you know, at the local level, whatever, you know, person that is. But you're right. They managed to kind of accrue that charisma and that sense of leadership themselves. Katherine: Yeah, and maybe the institution comes after in terms of picking it up and not addressing it and not feeding into it.Chicken or egg. I don't know which comes first. Well, this has been really great and I'm just, I feel like there's so much more to talk about, [00:49:00] but I will wrap us up there. Is there anything else that you wanted to share as we Wrap up the interview part. Marie: No, I would only ask if anyone listening is interested in talking to me.I really am. I am trying to interview as many people as I can survivors, but also people who want to work for reform in the church and don't know how family members. friends of people that they worry are being abused. Counselors, anyone, if you are interested in speaking with me, my email is open. R. M. G.567 at gmail dot com. And I would welcome correspondence with people. I am willing for anyone who wants to be anonymous, to be anonymous. I'm keeping confidentiality from people. A lot of people have very good reason to be confidential. They have children. Sometimes an abuser is, is someone's spouse or ex spouse, and they really don't want their children to know, right?There's all kinds of reasons. And I'm sensitive to that and we want to protect anyone and not [00:50:00] re traumatize them. But yes, I welcome anyone to contact me who would be Katherine: interested and your timeline for. When they hear this episode versus when your book is coming out. So timing, when is, when are you hoping to finish?Marie: Well, I'm a scholar, not a journalist and scholarship is slow. So this book is going to be, you know, a few years in the making realistically. So it's not like I've got a deadline, you know, of the end of October or something, I I'm on leave all of this year, the 2023, 2024, I could. Here and Katherine: anytime. All right, great.And I will put that information in the show notes so people can easily access and thank you so much for your time and all of the work that you're doing. Marie: Thank you, Catherine, for all the work you do. Yeah, I love your work and you keep at it. Katherine: Thank you.Thank you so much. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is [00:51:00] from the band Green Ashes. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

I am not a religious person, but I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church, so it's not as if I don't have a decent grasp of the values of the white evangelical voting bloc. So how do we square Donald Trump taking 53% of Iowa's white evangelical voter support last night - and since that's actually being a dip from his 2020 and 2016 numbers, is that a harbinger for his prospects this November? That got me to wondering just how we are where we are - in an era where the white evangelical voter supports politicians who come nowhere near their moral realm? Like when Texas' governor defends letting migrants die as his forces block federal border patrol agents from doing their job. With that taking the conversation towards immigration (and how the Bible commands God's children to treat them), I had to share what I learned yesterday: that the Biden/Harris administration has been quietly working on addressing 'root causes in migration' from Central American countries. Dealing with root causes vs slapping band-aids (like walls & detention)? What a concept! But get this: also quietly, in Guatamala, where a progressive just won that nation's presidency, a former Trump Cabinet official has been down there stirring up near-insurrectionist obstacles to that inauguration even occurring. Could it be that Republicans want to keep the invigoration crisis going because it's a useful problem to drum up votes?

Pastor Jeffery talks with Pastor Stuart Amidon about moving to the CREC from the Southern Baptist Convention; paedobaptism and paedocommunion; dealing with significant theological changes; the meaning of “dual practical” baptismal ecclesiology; cultural issues in the modern church; seeker-sensitivity and consumerism; church-hopping; red-pill masculinity; Biblical masculinity; the strengths of rural Louisiana culture; work ethic; modelling […] The post A Southern Baptist Church heads towards the CREC | Stuart Amidon appeared first on .

Can deeply entrenched religious beliefs inadvertently shield and even perpetuate abuse? This perplexing question arose during a recent episode of the "Hidden Killers Podcast" with Tony Brueski. He invited Dr. Laura Anderson, a prominent psychotherapist and religious trauma consultant, to demystify the layers surrounding religious trauma.    In the discussion, Dr. Anderson sheds light on a crucial distinction: "Trauma is not the thing that happens to us, but it's the way that our body responds or our nervous system responds to the thing that happens to us." This means that while abuse might be the root cause, it doesn't necessarily equate to trauma. Instead, trauma stems from how individuals internalize and react to abusive incidents.    One could wonder, how do religious organizations inadvertently or even actively contribute to this dynamic? Dr. Anderson pointed to several red flags typical of high-control religious groups that can pave the way for trauma. These range from isolation, where individuals are urged to associate only with those deemed appropriate by the religious hierarchy, to strict information control, where members are told what they can read, watch, or listen to.    Furthermore, in many high-control religions, rigid definitions of gender and sexuality exist, typically placing men in power roles above women. This often leads to abusive behaviors, backed by justifications of doing it "in the name of God." Spiritual abuse takes many forms, with threats and accusations being commonplace. For instance, if one strays from the religious path, they may be warned that they are now susceptible to harm, both in the physical and spiritual realms. One stark example is Scientology's "fair game" concept, where those who leave the Church become targets for various forms of harassment.    However, the insidiousness of religious trauma often lies in its subtlety. As Dr. Anderson states, "Oftentimes there's consequences for saying no to those things." A church's seemingly benign requirements, like donating a certain amount or adhering to specific dress codes, may seem trivial at first. Yet, over time, these "tiny things" accumulate, gradually chipping away at an individual's autonomy and identity.    Taking a more specific example, Brueski brought up the controversial case of the Duggar family, members of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. The incident involved Josh Duggar's sexual abuse of his sisters, with his parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, seemingly dismissing the severity of the situation. One might ask: how could seemingly moral parents act this way, seemingly prioritizing their faith over the well-being of their children?    Dr. Anderson's answer delves deep into the foundational beliefs of many high-control religions: the idea that humans are born sinful or evil. In this perspective, sin is expected, and when one sins, it's a "God problem" and not necessarily a legal issue. Dr. Anderson elaborates, "When you sin, then it's a God problem. It's not a legal problem." Consequently, the solution is often sought internally within the religious community, sidelining the legal and societal implications of the abusive action.    This protective stance isn't unique to the Duggar case. From the Catholic Church to the Southern Baptist Church, many religious institutions have grappled with scandals, often opting to "deal with it in-house" rather than confront the issue openly.    Concluding their discussion, Brueski and Anderson highlighted the broader implications of religious trauma, urging society to be vigilant and question the structures that may enable such behaviors.    So, we return to our initial inquiry with a twist: how can society recognize and address religious trauma effectively while respecting the sacredness of individual beliefs? Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Awaiting Admission: BTK's Unconfessed Crimes, Delphi Murders: Inside the Crime, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Malevolent Mormon Mommys, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com

Can deeply entrenched religious beliefs inadvertently shield and even perpetuate abuse? This perplexing question arose during a recent episode of the "Hidden Killers Podcast" with Tony Brueski. He invited Dr. Laura Anderson, a prominent psychotherapist and religious trauma consultant, to demystify the layers surrounding religious trauma.    In the discussion, Dr. Anderson sheds light on a crucial distinction: "Trauma is not the thing that happens to us, but it's the way that our body responds or our nervous system responds to the thing that happens to us." This means that while abuse might be the root cause, it doesn't necessarily equate to trauma. Instead, trauma stems from how individuals internalize and react to abusive incidents.    One could wonder, how do religious organizations inadvertently or even actively contribute to this dynamic? Dr. Anderson pointed to several red flags typical of high-control religious groups that can pave the way for trauma. These range from isolation, where individuals are urged to associate only with those deemed appropriate by the religious hierarchy, to strict information control, where members are told what they can read, watch, or listen to.    Furthermore, in many high-control religions, rigid definitions of gender and sexuality exist, typically placing men in power roles above women. This often leads to abusive behaviors, backed by justifications of doing it "in the name of God." Spiritual abuse takes many forms, with threats and accusations being commonplace. For instance, if one strays from the religious path, they may be warned that they are now susceptible to harm, both in the physical and spiritual realms. One stark example is Scientology's "fair game" concept, where those who leave the Church become targets for various forms of harassment.    However, the insidiousness of religious trauma often lies in its subtlety. As Dr. Anderson states, "Oftentimes there's consequences for saying no to those things." A church's seemingly benign requirements, like donating a certain amount or adhering to specific dress codes, may seem trivial at first. Yet, over time, these "tiny things" accumulate, gradually chipping away at an individual's autonomy and identity.    Taking a more specific example, Brueski brought up the controversial case of the Duggar family, members of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. The incident involved Josh Duggar's sexual abuse of his sisters, with his parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, seemingly dismissing the severity of the situation. One might ask: how could seemingly moral parents act this way, seemingly prioritizing their faith over the well-being of their children?    Dr. Anderson's answer delves deep into the foundational beliefs of many high-control religions: the idea that humans are born sinful or evil. In this perspective, sin is expected, and when one sins, it's a "God problem" and not necessarily a legal issue. Dr. Anderson elaborates, "When you sin, then it's a God problem. It's not a legal problem." Consequently, the solution is often sought internally within the religious community, sidelining the legal and societal implications of the abusive action.    This protective stance isn't unique to the Duggar case. From the Catholic Church to the Southern Baptist Church, many religious institutions have grappled with scandals, often opting to "deal with it in-house" rather than confront the issue openly.    Concluding their discussion, Brueski and Anderson highlighted the broader implications of religious trauma, urging society to be vigilant and question the structures that may enable such behaviors.    So, we return to our initial inquiry with a twist: how can society recognize and address religious trauma effectively while respecting the sacredness of individual beliefs? Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Awaiting Admission: BTK's Unconfessed Crimes, Delphi Murders: Inside the Crime, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Malevolent Mormon Mommys, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com

Have you ever wondered why we recite the Apostle's Creed? Does it seem like it doesn't fit in a Southern Baptist Church? Did you know the Apostle's Creed pre-dates Roman Catholicism? This is the first episode of a series on the Apostle's Creed and what it means and why it is so important. Give this podcast a listen as an introduction to this new series.

The unsettling rise in hatred and antagonism towards Christians in America can no longer be ignored. Shockingly, the reactions to recent violent attacks on Christians across the nation have been equally alarming, with some progressive activists and media figures mocking calls for prayer and healing in these times of crisis. We explore examples such as the Umpqua Community College shooting, the Southern Baptist Church shooting, and the Nashville Christian School shooting, to portray the grim reality of the current situation. Join us as we navigate through the biases of the media's portrayal of these incidents, underscoring the need for empathy, prayer, and a return to God and Christ in such trying times.Being proactive can make a significant difference in combating the persecution of Christians in America, and that's what we are urging you to do. We encourage you to share our podcast, in an effort to raise awareness and garner support. By subscribing and spreading the word, you become an integral part of this cause. Let's remember to keep our families, marriages, and our country in our prayers as we stand united against this rising tide of hatred. In the face of turmoil, we affirm our faith and the power of prayer to heal and unite us. Tune into this enlightening episode of the American Soul podcast - it's time we took a stand.Support the showThe American Soul Podcasthttps://www.buzzsprout.com/1791934/subscribe

Even though the Southern Baptist Church was established on slavery, their theology has always been built around the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine. Although the Word of God never teaches this, I sure wish they were right about it! https://www.paypal.me/Catholic4redneck?locale.x=en_US

We discuss the dangers of modern ecumenical religious movements, syncretism, apostasy, compromise in the Southern Baptist Church, another gospel of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis saying evangelism is pagan, and the deception of Padre Pio. 

Our Vigilance Committee gathers 'round the table once more to chat about their experience playing The Between: Ghosts of El Paso. CW: coarse language, sexual innuendo, alcohol, references to: suicidal ideation, ghosts, death, urine, violent ends, deep sadness, Christian imagery, the Southern Baptist Church, drunkenness, bathing [ 0:03:49 - System reflection ]  [ 0:25:14 - What we got wrong ]  [ 0:29:07 - Stars and Wishes ]  [ 0:53:23 - Behind the scenes, F*ck Marry Kill, alt. theories ]  [ 1:07:48 - Listener questions ]  [ 1:36:11 - What's next, a word from our sponsor ]  Featuring:  | David as the Keeper |  | Dave as Brother Gideon |  | Emma as Lorelai Chambers |  | Gwynn as Angel McCoy |  | Pat as Marshal Jefferson Stockley |  Grab some tea/coffee from Many Worlds Tavern! Use our code TOTA23 at checkout for 10% off!  - https://manyworldstavern.com/discount/TOTA23 - Follow our live show on YouTube! Now streaming June 17th and 24th at 2pm CST!  - https://www.youtube.com/@trialslive - Follow us for show updates!  - https://twitter.com/TotaPodcast - - https://discord.gg/gpkdFtDqye - Get a copy of Jason Cordova's The Between!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/360858/The-Between - Get a copy of Daniel Qualls and Jason Cordova's Ghosts of El Paso!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413131/The-Between-Ghosts-of-El-Paso -   This arc of Trials of the Apocalypse is an actual play podcast of The Between: Ghosts of El Paso.

It's Tuesday, June 13th, A.D. 2023. This is The Worldview in 5 Minutes heard at www.TheWorldview.com.  I'm Adam McManus.  (Adam@TheWorldview.com) By Kevin Swanson Christian persecution in Tajikistan Persecution against Christian churches is on the rise in Tajikistan.   In May 2022, Sulaymon Davlatzoda, a Tajikistan senior state religious affairs official, told Protestant church leaders that the government would no longer register new churches. Plus, anyone under 18 years of age is prohibited from practicing the Christian faith or taking part in church activities.  America's burdensome debt Does the U.S. government have a big debt problem? In the last 12 months, President Biden has racked up another $2.1 trillion in federal debt. That's up from a $438 billion deficit in 2015 when Barack Obama was president which is a 5-fold increase.   And that's up from a deficit of $22 billion back in the year 1997, when Bill Clinton was president, representing a 120-fold increase.  Regardless of what modern economists say, the wisdom of God in the book of Proverbs reminds us that “The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.” (Proverbs 22:7) Indictment of Trump didn't decrease popularity The present controversies do not appear to be hampering Donald Trump in the Republican race for the presidential nomination. Real Clear Politics has the former president at 53.6% up from 44% back in March.  That's a 31.8% lead ahead of Ron DeSantis. And Joe Biden and Donald Trump are neck and neck on the un-favorability rating — both at 55%. Rick Warren objecting to Baptists cutting ties over women pastors The Christian Post reported on Rick Warren's campaign to allow for women pastors in the Southern Baptist Church. Warren's Saddleback church is appealing the Southern Baptist Convention's decision to cut ties with the church over the issue. Christianity Today claims that 73% of American Evangelicals are okay with women preaching in a Sunday service.  And a recent survey conducted by Lifeway Research found that 55% of Evangelical pastors are okay with women serving as a senior pastor in a church. And the trend continues. Research conducted in 2016 found 21% of professional clergy in the US were women, up from 2.3% in 1960. 57% of Protestant churches prepared for active shooter A Lifeway survey discovered that 57% of American Protestant churches have prepared for an active shooter incident on church premises. And 54% claim to have armed church members as part of the plan. That's up from 45% claiming to have armed church members attending services back in 2019.   However, 21% of  Protestant churches do not allow firearms on church property at all. The survey did not ask if the church was ready for spiritual attacks.  Ephesians 6:13 says, “Take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” And 1 John 4:4 reminds God's people that “You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.” 100 African leaders to U.S.: Respect our Biblical values Increasingly, African nations are the target of the Western woke, pro-abortion, and anti-family agenda through U.S. foreign assistance programs.   Representing Bethany Christian Services, American Red Cross, Oxfam, International Rescue Committee, Islamic Relief, Catholic Relief Services, Care USA, Save the Children, and World Vision, an organization called Interaction.org lobbies the federal government for diverting funds towards these types of programs. InterAction explicitly promotes a universal “right” to abortion and increased funding for “women's rights and feminist organizations.” Last week, in light of these Western commitments, more than 100 African parliamentarians and religious leaders from 15 countries sent a letter to the U.S. Senate and House leadership, requesting that Africa's pro-life and pro-family values be respected.   There was special concern about President Biden's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief funding. The U.S. spends $40-$50 billion per year in foreign aid. Fox News trying to censor Tucker Carlson on Twitter And finally, will Twitter replace Fox News as a go-to for conservative Americans?   Tucker Carlson has topped 115 million Twitter streamings or downloads for his first commentary on Twitter. His second commentary, issued on June 8th, is pushing 55 million. After booting Carlson from their Fox News prime time programming, the self-styled conservative news organization experienced a prime time ratings drop of 37%, according to Deadline.com. Fox News is registering at 1.42 million views now -- down from 3 million when Tucker Carlson was on his game.   Axios reports that Fox News has responded to Carlson's Twitter activity with a cease and desist letter. Carlson's lawyers have responded with this statement: “Doubling down on the most catastrophic programming decision in the history of the cable news industry, Fox is now demanding that Tucker Carlson be silent until after the 2024 election. Tucker will not be silenced by anyone. ... He is a singularly important voice on matters of public interest in our country, and will remain so." Close And that's The Worldview in 5 Minutes on this Tuesday, June 13th in the year of our Lord 2023. Subscribe by iTunes or email to our unique Christian newscast at www.TheWorldview.com. Or get the Generations app through Google Play or The App Store. I'm Adam McManus (Adam@TheWorldview.com). Seize the day for Jesus Christ. Print story CA eager to call parents “abusive” who don't affirm transgender kids California AB 957, now before the State assembly, would amend the code to give the state the authority to remove children from their homes if their parents refuse to “affirm their gender,” reports LifeSiteNews.  Those parents would be categorized as “abusive.” It would also require schools, churches and other organizations to follow suit or face repercussions for 'impacting the health, safety and welfare of [a] child.' Nicole Pearson, founder of the Facts Law Truth Justice law firm, told the Daily Signal: “This is a horrifying bill for children, and for parents and guardians not just in California, but across the country. Gavin Newsom is gunning for president in 2028. If he signs this bill into law, here, it will be headed to every state if he wins.

The Vigilance Committee bring the Ghost-Be-Gone threat to a violent end. CW: graphic violence, eyes, dismemberment, gore, coarse language, ghosts, death, urine, bereavement, snake oil, alcohol, references to: loss of agency, violent ends, bondage, deep sadness, Christian imagery, the Southern Baptist Church, drunkenness, bathing, blood, marring of flesh [ 0:07:43 - Unscene 1; Lorelai proposes a game ]  [ 0:14:52 - Ropes, chains, cords, barbed wire; Unscene 2 ]  [ 0:19:46 - Ropes and Masterminds, the Marshal inside ]  [ 0:28:26 - Unscene 3; A game of chess ]  [ 0:44:29 - 'A meeting, some discussion' ]  [ 1:10:32 - Unscene 4; Individual scenes ]  Featuring:  | David as the Keeper |  | Dave as Brother Gideon |  | Emma as Lorelai Chambers |  | Gwynn as Angel McCoy |  | Pat as Marshal Jefferson Stockley |  Reviews us on Podchaser!  - https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/trials-of-the-apocalypse-1581506 - Support us on Patreon!  - https://www.patreon.com/totapodcast - Follow us for show updates!  - https://twitter.com/TotaPodcast - - https://discord.gg/gpkdFtDqye - Get a copy of Jason Cordova's The Between!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/360858/The-Between - Get a copy of Daniel Qualls and Jason Cordova's Ghosts of El Paso!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413131/The-Between-Ghosts-of-El-Paso -   This arc of Trials of the Apocalypse is an actual play podcast of The Between: Ghosts of El Paso.

The Vigilance Committee uncover the dark designs of Dr. Clarkson as they lay out their plans for the night. CW: coarse language, ghosts, death, urine, bereavement, snake oil, alcohol, violence, references to: loss of agency, violent ends, deep sadness, Christian imagery, the Southern Baptist Church, drunkenness, blood [ 0:02:35 - Answer a Question: Ghost-Be-Gone ]  [ 0:13:16 - Integrate clues ]  [ 0:21:27 - Answer a Question: Bounty Hunter ]  [ 0:29:19 - Paint the Scene: Rio Grande in El Paso ]  Featuring:  | David as the Keeper |  | Dave as Brother Gideon |  | Emma as Lorelai Chambers |  | Gwynn as Angel McCoy |  | Pat as Marshal Jefferson Stockley |  Reviews us on Podchaser!  - https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/trials-of-the-apocalypse-1581506 - Support us on Patreon!  - https://www.patreon.com/totapodcast - Follow us for show updates!  - https://twitter.com/TotaPodcast - - https://discord.gg/gpkdFtDqye - Get a copy of Jason Cordova's The Between!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/360858/The-Between - Get a copy of Daniel Qualls and Jason Cordova's Ghosts of El Paso!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413131/The-Between-Ghosts-of-El-Paso -   This arc of Trials of the Apocalypse is an actual play podcast of The Between: Ghosts of El Paso.

The promised tour of Dr. Jebediah F. Clarkson's operation finally arrives. The vigilance committee members are made offers they absolutely can (and do) refuse. CW: coarse language, ghosts, death, urine, bereavement, snake oil, alcohol, violence, references to: loss of agency, violent ends, deep sadness, Christian imagery, the Southern Baptist Church, drunkenness, bathing, blood, strangulation [ 0:03:00 - Arriving at the warehouse ]  [ 0:09:42 - Angel pokes around ]  [ 0:30:41 - All convene, offers are made ]  [ 0:58:26 - Begin dusk phase ]  Featuring:  | David as the Keeper |  | Dave as Brother Gideon |  | Emma as Lorelai Chambers |  | Gwynn as Angel McCoy |  | Pat as Marshal Jefferson Stockley |  Reviews us on Podchaser!  - https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/trials-of-the-apocalypse-1581506 - Support us on Patreon!  - https://www.patreon.com/totapodcast - Follow us for show updates!  - https://twitter.com/TotaPodcast - - https://discord.gg/gpkdFtDqye - Get a copy of Jason Cordova's The Between!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/360858/The-Between - Get a copy of Daniel Qualls and Jason Cordova's Ghosts of El Paso!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413131/The-Between-Ghosts-of-El-Paso -   This arc of Trials of the Apocalypse is an actual play podcast of The Between: Ghosts of El Paso.

We are back with our Church services series! This time hosts Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell are joined by another great return guest, Dr Peter Beck! Pastor Dr Beck speaks with us all about how his Church, a SBC church, runs their service and why they do it the way they do! How often should we do communion? What liturgy do Baptists follow? How should our worship in songs be structured in our churches? Can I expect the same things at any Southern Baptist Church or are they all different? What do Southern Baptists believe? Why does the Southern Baptist Church put the Bible at the center of their services? How does the Southern Baptist church service compare to other styles of worship? What are church services called in their church? What theology informs the structure of Dr Peter Beck's church? Do Baptists recite any creeds? We discuss all this and so much more in this one! Join in our conversations on our Discord Server and Facebook group!.Check out our upcoming convention and buy your tickets now!https://thewholechurch.wixsite.com/onechurchconference.Check out our online store:thewholechurchpodcast.com .Please consider sponsoring our show on Patreon, here, for access to our extra content like our "Too Long; Didn't Listen" series, our "Pet Peeves" series, and our "Whole Church News" episodes!.Make a one-time donation, here..Subscribe to our show, here..Rate us & leave a review, here.Mentioned in this episode:the EVERY TRIBE, (denomi)NATION, & TONGUES conventionCome join us for games, live comedy, live podcasts, Q&As, sermons, worship, food trucks, italian ice and more! (There is also a virtual option for the event!) Event site: https://thewholechurch.wixsite.com/onechurchconference Buy Tickets Direct: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-every-tribe-denomination-tongue-convention-tickets-455239382247

A new threat emerges as the Vigilance Committee investigates the effects of Ghost-Be-Gone on the town. Marshal interviews his prisoner, Gideon sniffs and scratches, Lorelai looks into a dead man's eyes, and Angel does some chemistry. CW: coarse language, death, dead human bodies, bereavement, guns, snake oil, alcohol, violence, references to: loss of agency, violent ends, deep sadness, Christian imagery, the Southern Baptist Church, drunkenness, bathing, blood, strangulation [ 0:02:51 - The Bounty Hunter threat, planning the day ]  [ 0:18:19 - Lorelai by the river, meetings in the Jailhouse ]  [ 0:41:10 - The third cell, introducing Del Sol ]  [ 0:51:31 - Gideon, Lorelai, and Penelope Prior ]  [ 1:24:17 - Analysis in Angel's saloon ]  [ 1:30:49 - Del Sol II: Ropes, chains, cords, barbed wire ]  Featuring:  | David as the Keeper |  | Dave as Brother Gideon |  | Emma as Lorelai Chambers |  | Gwynn as Angel McCoy |  | Pat as Marshal Jefferson Stockley |  Reviews us on Podchaser!  - https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/trials-of-the-apocalypse-1581506 - Support us on Patreon!  - https://www.patreon.com/totapodcast - Follow us for show updates!  - https://twitter.com/TotaPodcast - - https://discord.gg/gpkdFtDqye - Get a copy of Jason Cordova's The Between!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/360858/The-Between - Get a copy of Daniel Qualls and Jason Cordova's Ghosts of El Paso!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413131/The-Between-Ghosts-of-El-Paso - Listen to Two Weeks One Shot!  - https://linktr.ee/twoscast -   This arc of Trials of the Apocalypse is an actual play podcast of The Between: Ghosts of El Paso.

I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama during a time when the Civil Rights Movement had made historical progress. But that doesnt mean that every community was embracing Blacks. Most things were still pretty much segerated, especially in the churches. Most Christians do not realize the the Southern Baptist Church was founded so that their Clergy could own slaves. Things were slowly changing, but they werent changing at church. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/anchorfm22/support

The players receive a variety of rewards for completing the Lady in White threat.  CW: coarse language, ghosts, weddings, references to: marriage, Christian imagery, the Southern Baptist Church, drunkenness, bathing, death [ 0:03:07 - Rewards from the Lady in White ]  [ 0:10:26 - Award experience ]  [ 0:18:59 - Select Dawn Questions ]  [ 0:21:41 - Evaluate lingering conditions ]  Featuring:  | David as the Keeper |  | Dave as Brother Gideon |  | Emma as Lorelai Chambers |  | Gwynn as Angel McCoy |  | Pat as Marshal Jefferson Stockley |  Reviews us on Podchaser!  - https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/trials-of-the-apocalypse-1581506 - Support us on Patreon!  - https://www.patreon.com/totapodcast - Follow us for show updates!  - https://twitter.com/TotaPodcast - - https://discord.gg/gpkdFtDqye - Get a copy of Jason Cordova's The Between!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/360858/The-Between - Get a copy of Daniel Qualls and Jason Cordova's Ghosts of El Paso!  - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413131/The-Between-Ghosts-of-El-Paso -   This arc of Trials of the Apocalypse is an actual play podcast of The Between: Ghosts of El Paso.

On this episode: Elizabeth and Jamilah are joined by friend of the show, Travis Nichols. Travis is a writer and editor from Georgia and recently wrote an interesting piece about his experience trying to find a youth basketball league for his daughters. Other parents pointed him towards an affordable, accessible option. The catch? It was run by the Southern Baptist Church. Which begs the question—should you still sign your kids up if you don't agree with the church's values and prayer is built into the program.  Recommendations:  Jamilah recommends baking a chocolate strawberry cake.  Travis recommends revisiting The Diaries of Franz Kafka as a parent.  Elizabeth recommends a good ole sing-along and dance party in the car.  If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you'll also be supporting the work we do here on Mom and Dad are Fighting. Sign up now at slate.com/momanddadplus to help support our work. Join us on Facebook and email us at momanddad@slate.com to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today's show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes. You can also call our NEW PHONE LINE: (646) 357-9318!  Podcast produced by Rosemary Belson and Maura Currie. Make an impact this Black History Month by helping Macy's on their mission to fund UNCF scholarships for HBCU students. Go to macys.com/purpose to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode: Elizabeth and Jamilah are joined by friend of the show, Travis Nichols. Travis is a writer and editor from Georgia and recently wrote an interesting piece about his experience trying to find a youth basketball league for his daughters. Other parents pointed him towards an affordable, accessible option. The catch? It was run by the Southern Baptist Church. Which begs the question—should you still sign your kids up if you don't agree with the church's values and prayer is built into the program.  Recommendations:  Jamilah recommends baking a chocolate strawberry cake.  Travis recommends revisiting The Diaries of Franz Kafka as a parent.  Elizabeth recommends a good ole sing-along and dance party in the car.  If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you'll also be supporting the work we do here on Mom and Dad are Fighting. Sign up now at slate.com/momanddadplus to help support our work. Join us on Facebook and email us at momanddad@slate.com to ask us new questions, tell us what you thought of today's show, and give us ideas about what we should talk about in future episodes. You can also call our NEW PHONE LINE: (646) 357-9318!  Podcast produced by Rosemary Belson and Maura Currie. Make an impact this Black History Month by helping Macy's on their mission to fund UNCF scholarships for HBCU students. Go to macys.com/purpose to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We discuss the dangers of modern ecumenical religious movements, syncretism, apostasy, compromise in the Southern Baptist Church, another gospel of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis saying evangelism is pagan, and the deception of Padre Pio. 

Episode Summary"In the Beginning, God created male and female." Evangelicals have used this one verse as a weapon in their war on transgender individuals. But a closer look offers a far more inclusive interpretation. It is true that God made both male and female. God also made light and dark, the land and sea, skies and earth, and guess what? God also made EVERYTHING in between like rivers, lakes, valleys, hills, and mountains.The diversity of life that lies in these in-between spaces is what makes the world rich, beautiful, and complex. Otherwise, the world would be a pretty boring place if it was neatly divided into dualistic choices. The same is true for gender and sexuality. As Father Richard Rohr reminds us, "It seems that everything we put in a neat and tidy package must eventually be allowed to come undone, including our understanding of our bodies, gender, and attraction." Even if you do not identify as transgender, all of us have these shards of identity in us, whether it's our sexuality, our gender, our faith, our age, our cultural identity, our personal trauma histories—all of those things that are part of who we are combine to create our whole identity. The more complex the identity, the more beautiful our lived experience. In this deeply personal episode, we talk with Dr. Roberto Henderson-Espinoza about what it means to live on the borderlands of gender, sexuality, and race and how that place on the periphery of culture has given them a unique lens through which to see themselves and the world. Being transgender isn't a problem to overcome, but an opportunity to embrace and we come to realize it too is an original part of God's very good Creation. BioDr. Roberto is passionate about the politics of radical difference and the ways that our collective differences might shed light on how we become a better body together. Dr. Roberto Che Espinoza has been described in a myriad of ways: a scholar-activist, scholar-leader, thought-leader, teacher, public theologian, ethicist, poet of moral reason, and word artist. Among these ways of describing Dr. Roberto, they are also a visionary thinker who has spent two decades working in the borderlands of church, academy, & movements seeking to not only disrupt but dismantle supremacy culture and help steward the logic of liberation as a non binary Trans Queer Latinx. He enfleshes a deep hope of collaborating in these borderland spaces where their work seeks to contribute to the ongoing work of collective liberation. Dr. Roberto is the Founder of the Activist Theology Project, a Nashville based collaborative project that is dedicated to social healing. He is also on faculty at Duke Divinity School teaching at the intersections of queer theory & theology/ethics. Dr. Roberto was named 1 of 10 Faith Leaders to watch by the Center for American Progress in 2018. He has been featured in fashion magazines and appeared on many different podcasts, including Pete Holmes' You Made it Weird. As a scholar-activist, he is committed to translating theory to action, so that our work in the borderlands reflect the deep spiritual work of transforming self to transforming the world. As the Founder of the Activist Theology Project, Dr. Roberto is committed to the work of social healing through the politicizing of public theology initiatives, and writes & creates both academic & other valuable resources, including digital resources. He is a non-binary Transman; Latinx; and, adult on the Autism spectrum who calls Nashville, TN home. They are the author of Activist Theology and Body Becoming: A Path to Our Liberation. Dr. Roberto's next book-length project focuses on Belonging & Freedom.Quotables“I wake up every morning and there is something new for me to discover, and yet, I feel like I”ve spent a lifetime ignoring my body.”“Here in the United States, gender and sexuality has been so politicized in negative ways.”“In the past six months, I've been targeted three times, this most recent time by Matt Walsh and company.”“I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, and I saw up close the vitriol and hate of ‘difference.'”“Gender is a category that was created during the Enlightenment, and if you look at pre-modern history, you can see a variation of gender and a fluidity of gender.”“Biology exists in a social world.”“There is a thread of anti-intellectualism throughout the Right.”“If we are going to be faithful in the small things, we have to begin to listen to stories of people.”“We know that something other than male and female exists, and we can point to it in real time.”“Figuring out how to move in the world as a mixed race person…how do I live my story faithfully?”“As a transman, as a non-binary man, is part of my work to actually plant seeds for a different kind of masculinity.”“How do we build bridges together to create pathways for ethical futures, because it's not just me who needs freedom, you also need freedom.”“The center, those in dominant spaces, they also need freedom>.”“We need to recognize that their are people who believe that this country should be distinctly Christian. There is a move, globally, to create theocracies.”“How do we unhinge religion from politics, and can we do that?”“The thing is that is so frustrating, is that the Right is so organized.”If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and a review

Our Church Trauma Series continues with the massive nationwide abuse scandal and cover-up by America's largest protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Church. Plus, our Heretic of the Week is Professor of Religion at Princeton and author Elaine Pagels.

A new report commissioned by the Southern Baptist Convention found that "survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved, or discredited." Even some convicted molesters continued as ministers, without the SBC informing their congregations. The report's bombshell is that the SBC had compiled its own secret list of alleged abusers – and still took no action. This report was commissioned in response to a series of newspaper articles investigating sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Church. Published in 2019, the series was a team effort by reporters from the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News. We'll talk with one of the lead reporters, Robert Downen.John Powers will review the new British medical series This is Going to Hurt.