Podcast appearances and mentions of dave chang

Summer rewind: Scott Demark, President and CEO of Zibi Community Utility, joins thinkenergy to discuss how our relationship with energy is changing. With two decades of expertise in clean energy and sustainable development, Scott suggests reimagining traditional energy applications for heating and cooling. He shares how strategic energy distribution can transform urban environments, specifically how district energy systems optimize energy flow between buildings for a greener future. Listen in.   Related links   ●     Scott Demark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-demark-83640473/ ●     Zibi Community Utility: https://zibi.ca/ ●     Markham District Energy Inc: https://www.markhamdistrictenergy.com/ ●     One Planet Living: https://www.bioregional.com/one-planet-living ●     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ ●     Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405    To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl    To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/  --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited    Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa    Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod  ---- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.   Trevor Freeman  00:55 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back one of the overarching aspects of the energy transition that we have talked about several times on this show is the need to change our relationship with energy, to rethink the standard way of doing things when it comes to heating and cooling and transportation, et cetera. This change is being driven by our need to decarbonize and by the ongoing evolution and improvement of technology, more things are becoming available to us as technology improves. On the decarbonization front, we know that electrification, which is switching from fossil fuel combustions to electricity for things like space and water heating, vehicles, et cetera, is one of the most effective strategies. But in order to switch out all the end uses to an electric option, so swapping out furnaces and boilers for heat pumps or electric boilers, switching all gas cars to EVs, et cetera, in order to do that in a way that is affordable and efficient and can be supported by our electricity grid. We need to think about multi strategy approaches, so we can't just continue to have this one way power grid where every home, every business, every warehouse or office tower satisfies all of its energy needs all the time directly from the grid with no adaptability. That isn't the best approach. It's not going to be affordable or efficient. We're not going to be able to do it fast enough. The multi strategy approach takes into account things like distributed energy resources, so solar and storage, et cetera, which we've talked about many times on this show, but it also includes approaches like district energy. So district energy is rethinking how energy flows between adjacent buildings, looking for opportunities to capture excess energy or heat from one source and use that to support another, and that is the focus of today's conversation to help us dive into this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Scott demark to the show. Scott has been a champion of sustainability, clean energy solutions and energy efficiency in the Ottawa real estate and development industry for over 20 years now, he has overseen many high performance development projects, and was one of the driving forces behind the Zibi development in downtown Ottawa, and most applicable for today's conversation the renewable district energy system that provides heating and cooling to the Zibi site. Scott is the president and CEO of the Zibi community utility, as well as a partner at Theia partners. Scott the Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks. Nice to see you. Trevor, so Scott, why don't we start with definitions are always a good place to start. So when we talk about a district energy system, give us a high level overview of what exactly that means.   Scott Demark  04:15 Sure a district energy system is, is simply the connection or interconnection of thermal energy sources, thermal energy sinks. And so really, in practical terms, it means, instead of buildings having their own furnace and cooling system, buildings connect to a hydronic loop. A hydronic loop is just pipes filled with water, and then the heat or the cooling is made somewhere else, and that heat or lack of heat cooling is in a pipe. They push the pipe to the building, and then the pipe extracts the heat, or rejects the heat to that loop. And so it's simply an interconnection of. Uh, as it forces in sinks for federal energy.   Trevor Freeman  05:03 And I guess one of the important concepts here is that buildings often create heat, not just through a furnace or not just through the things that are meant to create heat, but, you know, server racks, computer server racks, generate a lot of heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. So oftentimes we're cooling buildings to remove heat that's being created in those buildings, and then other buildings nearby need to be heated in order to make that space comfortable.   Scott Demark  05:31 Is that fair to say? Yeah, absolutely. Trevor, so, a an office building in the city of Ottawa, big old government office building, you'll see a pretty big plume on the roof in the wintertime. That's not just kind of the flue gas from a boiler, but rather it is actually chillers are running inside to make cooling, and they're just selling that heat to the atmosphere, even on the coldest day of the year. So it's people, you know, people are thermal load. Computers are thermal load, and so is solar gain. You know, January is pretty dark period for us, meaning low angle sun, but by this time in a year, you know, at the end of February, there's a lot of heat in that sun. So a glass building absorbs a lot of sun an office building will lead cooling on the sunny side of that building a lot of the time, even in the dead of   Trevor Freeman  06:18 winter, yeah. So a district system, then, is taking advantage of the fact that heat exists, and we don't necessarily need to either burn fossil fuels, or, even if it's a, you know, a clean system, we don't have to expend energy to create heat, or create as much heat if we could move that heat around from where it's kind of naturally occurring to where we need   Scott Demark  06:41 it. That's right at the very core of a district energy system. You're going to move heat from a place that it's not wanted to a place that it is wanted. And so in our example of the office building, you know, on the February day with the sun shining in and the computers all running, that building's getting rid of heat. But right next door, say, there's a 20 story condo. Well, that 20 story condo needs heating and it also needs domestic hot water. So year round, domestic hot water represents 30, 35% of the heating load of any residential building, so at all times. So a district energy system allows you to take that heat away from the office building and give it to the residential building, instead of making the heat and and dissipating that heat to the atmosphere in the office building. So, yeah, it's, it's really a way to move, you know, from sources to sinks. That's, that's what a district energy system does well.   Trevor Freeman  07:37 So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, et cetera, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?   Scott Demark  08:15 I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in that industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are, are just starting right? Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth, and so they don't have the same cost structure, and oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where, you know, you might want to go and and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it, but if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you. Establish that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings. What the source and what the source is doesn't matter. So you may have, at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy System is a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a co generation facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system Augment, not fully replaced, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't to rip up the pipes. They don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.   Trevor Freeman  11:08 So you mentioned, I want to pick on something you said there. You talked about a sewer heat energy system. They're pulling heat from the sewer. Just help our listeners understand high level kind of, why is there heat there for us to pull like, what's the what's the source there?   Scott Demark  11:26 Yeah, so when we shower, when we flush toilets, all, all of that is introducing heat into a sewer system. So we're collecting heat from everybody's house into the sewer system. The sewer system also sits below the frost line. So call it Earth coupled. You know, it's the earth in Ottawa below the frost line sits around eight, eight and a half c and so at that temperature and the temperature of flushing toilets we we essentially get a sewer temperature in the on the coldest day of the year, but it's around 1010, and a half degrees Celsius. And obviously, for lots of the year, it's much warmer than that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are kind of familiar with the concept of geo exchange energy, or that. Lot of people call it geothermal. But geo exchange where you might drill down into the earth, and you're taking advantage of that 888, and a half degrees Celsius. So you're exchanging heat. You can reject heat to the earth, or you can absorb heat from the earth. Well, this is the same idea, but you accept or reject from this sewer. But because the sewer is relatively shallow, it is cheaper to access that energy, and because it's warm, and on the coldest day, a couple of degrees make a big difference. Trevor and most of the years so much warmer, you're really in a very good position to extract that heat, and that's all it is. You. You are just accepting or rejecting heat. You don't use the sewage itself. It doesn't come into your building. You have a heat exchanger in between. But that's what you do.   Trevor Freeman  12:58 I agree. And we've talked before on the show about the idea that you know, for an air source, heat pump, for example, you don't need a lot of heat energy to extract energy from the air. It can be cold outside, and there is still heat energy in the air that you can pull and use that to heat a building, heat water, whatever. So same concept, except you've got a much warmer source of energy, I guess. Yeah, exactly. And you know, Trevor, when you look at the efficiency curves of those air source heat pumps, you know, they kind of drop off a cliff at minus 20. Minus 22 In fact, you know, five or six years ago, they that that was dropping off at minus 10. So we've come a long way in air source heat pumps. But imagine on that coldest, coldest day of the year, you're still your source is well above zero, and therefore your efficiency. So the amount of electricity you need to put into the heat pump to get out the heat that you need is much lower, so it's a way more efficient heat exchange. Great. Thanks for that, Scott. I know that's a bit of a tangent here, but always cool to talk about different ways that we're coming up with to heat our buildings. So back to district energy, we've talked through some of the benefits of the system. If I'm a building owner and I'm have the decision to connect to a system that's there, or have my own standalone, you know, traditional boiler, whatever the case may be, or even in a clean energy want to heat pump, whatever. What are the benefits of being on a district system versus having my own standalone system for just my building?   Scott Demark  14:30 Yeah, so when you're wearing the developers hat, you know they're really looking at it financially, if they have other goals around sustainability. Great that will factor into it, but most of them are making decisions around this financially. So it needs to compete with that. That first cost that we talked about the easiest ways, is boilers, gas fired boilers is the cheapest way. And so they're going to look to see it at how. Does this compare to that? And so I think that's the best way to frame it for you. And so the difference here is that you need to install in your building a cooling system and a heating system. In Ottawa, that cooling system is only used for a few months a year, and it's very expensive. It takes up space, whether you're using a chiller and a cooling tower on the roof, or using a dry cooler, it takes up roof space, and it also takes up interior space. If you do have a cooling tower, you have a lot of maintenance for that. You need to turn it on and turn it off in the spring, on and fall, etc, just to make sure all that happens. And you need to carry the life cycle of that boiler plant you need to bring gas infrastructure into your building. You generally need to put that gas boiler plant high in your building, so, so up near the top, and that's for purposes of venting that properly. Now, that's taking real estate, right? And it's taking real estate on the area that's kind of most advantageous, worth the most money. So you might lose a penthouse to have a boiler and chiller room up there. And you also, of course, lose roof space. And today, we really do try to take advantage of those rooftop patios and things. Amenities are pretty important in buildings. And so when I compare that to district energy at the p1 level p2 level in your building, you're going to have a small room, and I really do mean small where the energy transfer takes place, you'll have some heat exchangers. And small you might have a space, you know, 10 or 12 feet by 15 to 18 feet would be big enough for a 30 story tower. So a small room where you do the heat exchange and then Trevor, you don't have anything in your building for plant that you would normally look after. So when you look at the pro forma for owning your building over the lifetime of it, you don't have to maintain boilers. You don't have to have boiler insurance. You don't have to maintain your chillers. You don't have to have lifecycle replacement on any of these products. You don't need anybody operating, those checking in on the pressure vessels. None of that has to happen. All of that happens on the district energy system. So you're really taking something you own and operate and replacing that with a service. So district energy is a service, and what, what we promised to deliver is the heating you need and the cooling you need. 24/7 you second thing you get is more resilience. And I'll explain that a little bit. Is that in a in a normal building, if you if the engineers looked at it and said you need two boilers to keep your building warm, then you're probably going to install three. And that is kind of this n plus one sort of idea, so that if one boilers goes down, you have a spare and you need to maintain those. You need to pay for that. You need to maintain those, etc. But in district energy system, all that redundancy is done in the background. It's done by us, and we have significantly more redundancy than just n plus one in this example. But overall, you know, if you have 10 buildings on your district energy system, each of those would have had n plus one. We don't have n plus 10 in the plant. And so overall, the cost is lower, I would say, if you look at it globally, except the advantages you do have better than N plus one in the plan, so we have higher resiliency at a lower cost.   Trevor Freeman  18:26 So we know there's no such thing as a miracle solution that works in all cases. What are the the best use cases for district energy system? Where does it make a lot of sense.   Scott Demark  18:37 Yeah, in terms some, in some ways the easiest thing, spray work doesn't make sense. So, so it doesn't make sense in sprawling low rise development. So the cost of that hydronic loop, those water pipes, is high. They have to fit in the roadway. It's civil work, etc. And so you do need density. That doesn't mean it has to be high rise density. You know, if you look at Paris, France, six stories, district energy, no problem. There's there's lots and lots of customers for that scale of building. It doesn't have to be all high rise, but it does. District energy does not lend itself well to our sprawling style of development. It's much more suited to a downtown setting. It also kind of thrives where there's mixed use, you know, I think the first example we're talking about is office building shedding heat, residential building needing heat, you know, couple that with an industrial building shedding heat. You know, the these various uses, a variety of uses on a district energy system is the best because its biggest advantage is sharing energy, not making energy. And so a disparity of uses is the best place to use that, I think the other, the other thing to think about, and this is harder in Canada than the rest of the world. Is that, you know, it's harder on a retrofit basis, from a cost perspective, than it is in a in a new community where you can put this in as infrastructure, day one, you're going to make a big difference. And I'll, you know, give a shout out to British Columbia and the Greater Vancouver area. So the district, you know, down in the Lower Mainland, they, they kind of made this observation and understood that if they were going to electrify then District Energy gave economies of scale to electrify that load. And they do a variety of things, but one of the things they do is, is kind of district geo exchange systems, so, so big heat pumps coupled to big fields, and then bring heat a bunch of buildings. But these are Greenfield developments Trevor. So as they expand their suburbs, they do need to build the six stories. They very much have kind of density around parks concepts. So now Park becomes a geo field, density around the geo field, but this infrastructure is going in the same time as the water pipes. It's going in at the same time as the roads, the sidewalks, etc, you can dramatically reduce your cost, your first cost related to that hydro loop, if you're putting it in the same time you're doing the rest of the services.   Trevor Freeman  21:15 So we're not likely to see, you know, residential neighborhoods with single family homes or multi unit homes, whatever, take advantage of this. But that sort of low rise, mid rise, that's going to be more of a good pick for this. And like you said, kind of development is the time to do this. You mentioned other parts of the world. So district energy systems aren't exactly widespread. In Canada, we're starting to see more of them pop up. What about the rest of the world? Are there places in the world where we see a lot more of this, and they've been doing this for a long time?   Scott Demark  21:47 Yeah. So I'd almost say every everywhere in the northern hemisphere, except North America, has done much more of this. And you know, we really look to kind of Scandinavia as the gold standard of this. You look to Sweden, you look to Denmark, you look to Germany. Even there's, there's a lot of great examples of this, and they are typically government owned. So they are often public private partnerships, but they would be various levels of government. So you know, if you, if you went to Copenhagen, you'd see that the municipality is an owner. But then their equivalent of a province or territory is, is actually a big part of it, too. And when they built their infrastructure ages ago, they did not have an easy source of fossil fuels, right? And so they need to think about, how can we do this? How can we share heat? How can we centralize the recovery of heat? How can we make sure we don't waste any and this has just been ingrained in them. So there's massive, massive District Energy loops, interconnecting loops, some owned by municipalities, some of them probably, if you build a factory, part of the concept of your factory, part of the pro forma of your factory is, how much can I sell my waste heat for? And so a factory district might have a sear of industrial partners who own a district energy loop and interfaces with the municipal loop, all sort of sharing energy and dumping it in. And so that's, you know, that's what you would study. That's, that's where we would want to be. And the heart of it is just that, as I said, we've really had, you know, cheap or, you know, really cheap fossil fuels. We've had no price on pollution. And therefore what really hasn't needed to happen here, and we're starting to see the need for that to happen here.   Trevor Freeman  23:46 It's an interesting concept to think of, you know, bringing that factory example in, instead of waste heat or heat as a byproduct of your process being a problem that you need to deal with, something, you have to figure out a way to get rid of it becomes almost an asset. It's a it's a, you know, convenient commodity that's being produced regardless, that you can now look to sell and monetize.   Scott Demark  24:10 Yeha, you go back to the idea of, like, what are the big benefits of district energy? Is that, like, if that loop exists and somebody knows that one of the things the factory produces is heat, well, that's a commodity I produce, and I can, I can sell it if I have a way to sell it right here, you know, we're going to dissipate it to a river. We may dissipate it to the atmosphere. We're going to get rid of it. Like you said, it's, it's, it's waste in their minds, and in Europe, that is absolutely not waste.   Trevor Freeman  24:36 And it coming back to that, you know, question of, where does this make sense? You talked about mixed use, and it's also like the, you know, the temporal mixed use of someone that is producing a lot of heat during the day, when the next door residential building is empty, then when they switch, when the factory closes and the shift is over and everybody comes home from work. So that's when that building needs heat, that's when they want to be then taking that heat two buildings next to each other that both need heat at the same time is not as good a use cases when it's offset like that.   Scott Demark  25:10 Yeah, that's true. And lots of District Energy Systems consider kind of surges and storage. I know our system at CB has, has kind of a small storage system related to the domestic hot water peak load. However, you can also think of the kilometers and kilometers and kilometers of pipes full of water as a thermal battery, right? So, so you actually are able to even out those surges you you let the temperature the district energy system rise when that factory is giving all out all kinds of heat, it's rising even above the temperature you have to deliver it at. And then when that heat comes, you can draw down that temperature and let the whole district energy system normalize to its temperature again. So you do have an innate battery in the in the water volume that sits in the district energy system, very cool.   Trevor Freeman  26:04 So you've mentioned Zibi a couple of times, and I do want to get into that as much as we're talking about other parts of the world. You know having longer term district energy systems. Zibi, community utility is a great example, right here in Ottawa, where you and I are both based of a district energy system. Before we get into that, can you, just for our listeners that are not familiar with Zibi, give us a high level overview of of what that community is, its location, you know, the goals of the community, and then we'll talk about the energy side of things.   Scott Demark  26:34 Sure. So Zibi was formerly Domtar paper mills. It's 34 acres, and it is in downtown Ottawa and downtown Gatineau. About a third of the land masses is islands on the Ontario side, and two thirds of the land mass is on the shore, the north shore of the Ottawa River in Gatineau, both downtown, literally in the shadows of Parliament. It is right downtown. It was industrial for almost 200 years. Those paper mills shut down in the 90s and the early 2000s and my partners and I pursued that to turn it from kind of this industrial wasteland, walled off, fenced off, area that no one could go into. What we're hoping will be kind of the world's most sustainable urban community, and so at build out, it will house, you know, about six, 7000 people. It will be four and a half million square feet, 4.24 point 4, million square feet of development. It is master planned and approved and has built about, I think we're, at 1.1 million square feet. So we're about quarter built out now. 10 buildings are done and connected to the district energy system there. And really, it's, it's an attempt to sort of recover land that was really quite destroyed. You can imagine it was a pretty polluted site. So the giant remediation plan, big infrastructure plan, we modeled this, this overall sustainability concept, over a program called one planet living which has 10 principles of sustainability. So you know, you and I are talking a lot about carbon today, but there's also very important aspects about affordability and social sustainability and lifestyle, and all of those are incorporated into the one planet program, and encourage people to look up one planet living and understand what it is, and look at the commitments that we've made at CV to create a sustainable place. We issue a report every year, kind of our own report card that's reviewed by a third party, that explains where we are on our on our mission to achieve our goal of the world's most sustainable   Trevor Freeman  28:57 community. Yeah. And so I do encourage people to look at one planet living. Also have a look at, you know, the Zibi website, and it's got the Master Plan and the vision of what that community will be. And I've been down there, it's already kind of coming along. It's amazing to see the progress compared to who I think you described it well, like a bit of an industrial wasteland at the heart of one of the most beautiful spots in the city. It was really a shame what it used to be. And it's great to see kind of the vision of what it can become. So that's awesome.   Scott Demark  29:26 Yeah, and Trevor, especially now that the parks are coming along. You know, we worked really closely with the NCC to integrate the shoreline of ZV to the existing, you know, bike path networks and everything. And, you know, two of the three shoreline parks are now completed and open to the public and and they're stunning. And, you know, so many Ottawa people have not been down there because it's not a place you think about, but it's one of the few places in Ottawa and Gatineau where you can touch the water, you know, like it's, it's, it's stunning. Yeah, very, very cool.   Trevor Freeman  29:57 Okay, so the. The the next part of that, of course, is energy. And so there is a district energy system, one of the first kind of, or the most recent big energy. District Energy Systems in Ottawa. Tell us a little bit about how you are moving energy and heating the Zibi site.   Scott Demark  30:17 Yeah. So, first I'll say, you know, we, we, we studied different ways to get to net zero. You know, we had, we had a goal of being a zero carbon community. There are low carbon examples, but a zero carbon community is quite a stretch. And even when you look at the Scandinavian examples, the best examples, they're missing their they're missing their energy goals, largely because some of the inputs that are District Energy System remain fossil, but also because they have trouble getting the performance out of the buildings. And so we looked at this. We also know from our experience that getting to zero carbon at the building scale in Ottawa is very, very difficult. Our climate's tough, super humid, super hot summer, very cold, very dry, winter, long winter. So it's difficult at the building scale. It's funny Trevor, because you'd actually have an easier time getting to zero carbon or a passive house standard in affordable housing than you do at market housing, and that's because affordable housing has a long list of people who want to move in and pay rents. You can get some subsidies for capital, and the people who are willing to pay rent are good with smaller windows, thicker walls, smaller units, and pass trust needs, all those kinds of things. So when down at Zibi, you're really selling views. You're competing with people on the outside of Zibi, you're building almost all glass buildings. And so it's really difficult to find a way to get to zero carbon on the building scale. So that moved us to district energy for all the reasons we've talked about today already. And so when we looked at it for Zibi, you really look at the ingredients you have. One of the great things we have is we're split over the border. It's also a curse. But split over the border is really interesting, because you cannot move electricity over that border, but you can move thermal energy over that border. And so for us, in thinking about electrifying thermal energy, we realized that if we did the work in Quebec, where there is clean and affordable electricity, we could we could turn that into heat, and then we could move heat to Ontario. We could move chilled water to Ontario. So that's kind of ingredient, one that we had going for us there. The second is that there used to be three mills. So originally, don't target three mills. They sold one mill. It changed hands a few times, but It now belongs to Kruger. They make tissue there so absorbent things, Kleenexes and toilet paper, absorbent, anything in that tissue process. That's a going concern. So you can see that on our skyline. You can see, on cold days, big plumes of waste heat coming out of it. And so we really saw that as our source, really identified that as our source. And how could we do that? So going back to the economies of scale, is could we send a pipeline from Kruger, about a kilometer away, to Zibi? And so when we were purchasing the land, we were looking at all the interconnections of how the plants used to be realized. There's some old pipelines, some old easements, servitudes, etc. And so when we bought the land, we actually bought all of those servitudes too, including a pipeline across the bridge. Canadian energy regulator licensed across the bridge into Ontario. And so we mixed all these ingredients up, you know, in a pot and came up with our overall scheme. And so that overall scheme is is relatively simple. We built an energy recovery station at Kruger where, just before their effluent water, like when they're finished in their process, goes back to the river. We have a heat exchanger there. We extract heat. We push that heat in a pipe network over to Zibi. At Zibi, we can upgrade that heat using heat recovery chillers to a useful temperature for us, that's about 40 degrees Celsius, and we push that across the bridge to Ontario, all of our buildings in Ontario then have fan coil units. They use that 40 degree heat to heat buildings. The return side of that comes back to Quebec. And then on the Quebec side, we have a loop. And all of our buildings in the Quebec side then use heat pumps so we extract the last bit of heat. So imagine you you've returned from a fan coil, but you're still slightly warm. That slightly warm water is enough to drive a heat pump inside the buildings. And then finally, that goes back to Kruger again, and Kruger heats it back up with their waste heat and comes back. So that's our that's our heating loop. The cooling side is coupled to the Ottawa River. And so instead of us, we. Rejecting heat to the atmosphere through cooling towers. Our coolers are actually coupled to the river. That's a very tight environmental window that you can operate in. So we worked with the Ministry of the Environment climate change in Quebec to get our permit to do it. We can only be six degrees difference to the river, but our efficiency is on average, like on an annual basis, more than double what it would be to a cooling tower for the same load. So we're river coupled, with respect to cooling for the whole development, and we're coupled to Kruger for heating for the whole development. And what that allows us to do is eliminate fossil fuels. Our input is clean Quebec electricity, and our output is heating and cooling.   Trevor Freeman  35:44 So none of the buildings, you know, just for our listeners, none of the buildings have any sort of fossil fuel combustion heating equipment. You don't have boilers or anything like that. Furnaces in these in these buildings?   Scott Demark  35:54 No boilers, no chillers, no. that's awesome. And   Trevor Freeman  35:58 That's awesome. And just for full transparency, I should have mentioned this up front. So the Zibi community utility is a partnership between Zibi and Hydro Ottawa, who our listeners will know that I work for, and this was really kind of a joint venture to figure out a different approach to energy at the Zibi site.   Scott Demark  36:16 Yeah, that's right. Trevor, I mean the concept, the concept was born a long time ago now, but the concept was born by talking to hydro Ottawa about how we might approach this whole campus differently. You know, one of hydro Ottawa companies makes electricity, of course, Chaudière Falls, and so that was part of the thinking we thought of, you know, micro grids and islanding this and doing a lot of different things. When Ford came in, and we were not all the way there yet, and made changes to Green Energy Act, it made it challenging for us to do the electricity side, but we had already well advanced the thermal side, and hydro, you know, hydro makes a good partner in this sort of thing, when a when a developer tells someone, I'd like you to buy a condo, and by the way, I'm also the district energy provider that might put some alarm bells up, but you put a partnership in there with a trusted, long term utility partner and explain that, you know, it is in the in the public interest. They're not going to jack rates or mess with things, and then obviously just hydro has had such a long operating record operating experience that they really brought sort of an operations and long term utility mindset to our district energy system.   Trevor Freeman  37:35 So looking at a system like the Zippy community utility or other district energy systems. Is this the kind of thing that can scale up over time? And, you know, I bring this up because you hear people talk about, you know, a network of district energy systems across a city or across a big geographic area. Are these things that can be interconnected and linked, or does it make more sense as standalone district energy systems in those conditions that you talked about earlier.   Scott Demark  38:06 Very much the former Trevor like and that's, you know, that's where, you know, places like Copenhagen are today. It's that, you know, there was, there was one district energy system, then there was another, then they got interconnected, then the third got added. And then they use a lot of incineration there in that, in that part of the world, clean incineration for garbage. And so then an incinerator is coming online. And so that incinerators waste heat is going to be fed with a new district energy loop, and some other factory is going to use the primary heat from that, and then the secondary heat is going to come into the dictionary system. Disciplinary system. So these things are absolutely expandable. They're absolutely interconnectable. There are temperature profiles. There's modern, modern thoughts on temperature profiles compared to older systems. Most of the old, old systems were steam, actually, which is not the most efficient thing the world. But that's where they started and so now you can certainly interconnect them. And I think that the example at Zibi is a decent one, because we do have two kinds of systems there. You know, I said we have fan coil units in in the Ontario side, but we have heat pumps on the other side. Well, those two things, they can coexist, right? That's there. Those two systems are operating together. Because the difference, you know, the difference from the customer's perspective in those two markets are different, and the same can be true in different parts of the city or when different sources and sinks are available. So it is not one method of doing district energy systems. What you do is you examine the ingredients you have. I keep saying it, but sources and sinks? How can I look at these sources and sinks in a way that I can interconnect them and make sense? And sometimes that means that a source or a sink might be another district energy system.   Trevor Freeman  39:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, systems that maybe work in parallel to each other, in cooperation with each other. Again, it's almost that temporal need where there's load high on at one point in time and low on the other point in time. Sharing is a great opportunity.   Scott Demark  40:14 Yeah, absolutely great.   Trevor Freeman  40:17 Okay, last question for you here, Scott, what is needed, maybe from a regulatory or a policy lens to encourage more implementation of district energy systems. How do we see more of these things happen here in Canada or in   Scott Demark  40:32 North America? The best way to put this, the bureaucracy has been slow to move, is, is what I'll say, and I'll use Zibi as that example. When we, when we pitched the district energy system at Zibi, we had to approach the City of Ottawa, and we had to approach the city of Gatineau, the City of Ottawa basically said to us, No, you can't put those in our streets. Engineering just said, no, no, no, no. And so what we did at Zibi is we actually privatized our streets in order to see our vision through, because, because Ottawa wasn't on board, the city of Gatineau said, Hmm, I'm a little worried. I want you to write protocols of how you will access your pipes, not our pipes. I want to understand where liability ends and starts and all of this kind of stuff. And we worked through that detail slowly, methodically, with the city of Gatineau, and we came to a new policy on how district energy could be in a public street and Zibi streets are public on the Gatineau side today. You know, come forward 10 years here, and the City of Ottawa has a working group on how to incorporate District Energy pipes into streets. We've been able to get the City of Ottawa to come around to the idea that we will reject and accept heat from their sewer. You know, hydro Ottawa, wholly owned company of the City of Ottawa, has an active business in district energy. So Trevor, we've come really far, but it's taken a long time. And so if you ask me, How can we, how can accelerate district energy, I think a lot of it has to do with the bureaucracy at municipalities. And you know, we're we see so much interest from the Federation of Canadian municipalities, who was the debt funder for ZCU. We have multiple visits from people all over Canada, coming to study and look at this as an example. And I'm encouraged by that. But it's also, it's also not rocket science. We need to understand that putting a pipe in a street is kind of a just, just a little engineering problem to solve, whereas putting, you know, burning fossil fuels for these new communities and putting in the atmosphere like the genies out of the bottle, right? Like and unfortunately, I think for a lot of bureaucrats, the challenge at the engineering level is that that pipe in the street is of immediate, complex danger to solving that problem, whereas it's everybody's problem that the carbons in the atmosphere. So if we could accelerate that, if we could focus on the acceleration of standards around District Energy pipes and streets, the rights of a district energy company to exist, and not to rant too much, but give you an example, is that a developer is required to put gas infrastructure into a new community, required, and yet you have to fight to get a district energy pipe in the street. So there needs to be a change of mindset there, and, and we're not there yet, but that's where we need to go.   Trevor Freeman  43:54 Yeah. Well, the interesting, you know, in 10 years, let's talk again and see how far we come. Hopefully not 10 years. Hopefully it's more like five, to see the kind of change that you've seen in the last decade. But I think that the direction is encouraging. The speed needs a little bit of work. But I'm always encouraged to see, yeah, things are changing or going in the right direction, just slowly. Well, Scott, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, so as long as you're okay with it, I'll jump right into those. So the first question is, what is a book you've read that you think everybody should read?   Scott Demark  44:29 Nexus, which is by Harari. He's the same author that wrote sapiens. Lots of people be familiar with sapiens. And so Nexus is, is really kind of the history of information networks, like, how do we, how do we share and pass information? And kind of a central thesis is that, you know, information is, is neither knowledge nor truth. It is information, and it's talking a lot about in the age of AI. Uh, how are we going to manage to move information into truth or knowledge? And I think it, you know, to be honest, it kind of scared the shit out of me reading it kind of how, how AI is impacting our world and going to impact our world. And what I thought was kind of amazing about it was that he, he really has a pretty strong thesis around the erosion of democracy in this time. And it's, it was, it was really kind of scary because it was published before the 2024 election. And so it's, it's really kind of a, both a fascinating and scary read, and I think really something that everybody should get their head around.   Trevor Freeman  45:47 It's, yeah, there's a few of those books recently that I would clear or classify them as kind of dark and scary, but really important or really enlightening in some way. And it kind of helps you, you know, formalize a thought or a concept in your head and realize, hey, here's what's happening, or gives you that kind of the words to speak about it in this kind of fraught time we're in. So same question, but for a movie or a show, is there anything that you think everybody should watch.   Scott Demark  46:16 That's harder, I think, generally from watching something, it's for my downtime or own entertainment, and pushing my tastes on the rest of the world, maybe not a great idea. I if I, if I'm, if I'm kind of doing that, I tend to watch cooking shows, actually, Trevor so like, that's awesome. I like ugly, delicious. I love Dave Chang. I like, I like mind of a chef creativity partnership. So those kind of things I'd say more so if there was something to like that, I think somebody else should, should watch or listen to, I have, I have a real love for Malcolm Gladwell podcast, revisionist history. And so if I thought, you know, my watching habits are not going to going to expand anybody's brain, but I do think that Malcolm's perspective on life is really a healthy it's really healthy to step sideways and look at things differently. And I would suggest, if you have never listened to that podcast. Go to Episode One, season one, and start there. It's, it's, it's fantastic.   Trevor Freeman  47:26 Yeah, I agree. I'll echo that one. That's one of my favorites. If we were to offer you or not, but if we were to offer you a free round trip flight, anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Scott Demark  47:38 That's hard, so much flight guilt. You know.   Trevor Freeman  47:42 I know it's a hard assume that there's carbon offset to it.   Scott Demark  47:47 It's an electric plane.   Trevor Freeman  47:48 That's right, yeah.s   Scott Demark  47:49 My family, had a trip planned in 2020 to go to France and Italy. My two boys were kind of at the perfect age to do that. It would have been a really ideal trip. And so I've still never been to either those places. And if I had to pick one, probably Italy, I would really like to see Italy. I think it would be a fantastic place to go. So probably, probably Italy.   Trevor Freeman  48:12 My favorite trip that I've ever done with my wife and our six month old at the time was Italy. It was just phenomenal. It was a fantastic trip. Who's someone that you admire?   Scott Demark  48:25 I have a lot of people. Actually have a lot of people in this in this particular space, like, what would I work in that have brought me here to pick to pick one, though I'd probably say Peter Busby. So. Peter Busby is a mentor, a friend, now a business partner, but, but not earlier in my career. Peter Busby is a kind of a one of the four fathers, you know, if you will, of green design in Canada. He's an architect, Governor General's Award winning architect, actually. But I think what I what I really, really appreciate about Peter, and always will, is that he was willing to stand up in his peer group and say, Hey, we're not doing this right. And, you know, he did that. He did that in the early 80s, right? Like we're not talking he did it when it cost his business some clients. He did it when professors would speak out against him, and certainly the Canadian Association of architecture was not going to take any blame for the shitty buildings that have been built, right? And he did it, and I remember being at a conference where Peter was getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian architects Association. And so he's standing up, and people are all super proud of him. They're talking about his big life. And he. He, he, he kind of belittled them all and said, You're not doing enough. We're not doing enough like he's still he's still there. He's still taking the blame for where things are, and that things haven't moved fast enough, and that buildings are a massive part of our carbon problem, and probably one of the easier areas to fix. You know, we're talking about electric planes. Well, that's a that's a lot more difficult than it is to recover energy from a factory to heat a community, right? I admire him. I learned things from him all the time. He's got a great book out at the moment, actually, and, yeah, he'd be right up there on my in my top list, awesome.   Trevor Freeman  50:44 What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?   Scott Demark  50:48 You wished you asked me this before the election. I'm feeling a little dark. Trevor, I think there needs to be a price on pollution in the world needs to be a price on pollution in America, in Canada, and I'm worried about that going away. In light of that, I'm not I'm not super excited about different technologies at the moment. I think there are technologies that are helping us, there are technologies that are pushing us forward, but there's no like silver bullet. So, you know, a really interesting thing that's coming is kind of this idea that a small nuclear reactor, okay, very interesting idea. You could see its context in both localized electricity production, but all the heat also really good for district entry, okay, so that's an interesting tech. It obviously comes with complications around security and disposal, if you like, there's our nuclear industry has been allowed to drink like, it's all complicated. So I don't see one silver bullet in technology that I'm like, That's the answer. But what I do see, I'll go back to what we were talking about before is, you know, we had to turn this giant ship of bureaucracy towards new solutions. Okay, that's, that's what we had to do. And now that it's turned and we've got it towards the right course, I'm encouraged by that. I really am. You know, there are champions. And I'll, I'll talk about our city. You know, there's champions in the City of Ottawa who want to see this happen as younger people have graduated into roles and planning and other engineering roles there. They've grown up and gone to school in an age where they understand how critical this climate crisis is, and they're starting to be in positions of power and being in decision making. You know, a lot of my career, we're trying to educate people that there was a problem. Now, the people sitting in those chairs, it, they understand there's a problem, and what can they do about it? And so I am, I am excited that that the there is a next generation sitting in these seats, making decisions, the bureaucracy, the ship is, is almost on course to making this difference. So, so I do think that's encouraging. We have the technology. We really do. It's not rocket science. We just need to get through, you know, the bureaucracy barriers, and we need to find ways to properly finance it.   Trevor Freeman  53:22 Great. I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and shedding a little bit of light, not just on the technical side of district energy systems, but on the broader context, and as you say, the bureaucracy, the what is needed to make these things happen and to keep going in that right direction. So thanks a lot for your time. I really appreciate it.   Scott Demark  53:43 Thank you, Trevor, good to see you.   Trevor Freeman  53:45 All right. Take care.   Trevor Freeman  53:47 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss the Grizzlies' significant loss to the Timberwolves as the regular season comes down to the wire, and the most fun first round western conference matchups, and Luka Doncic returning to Dallas with the Lakers (2:16). Then Bill, House and Nathan Hubbard discuss Round 1 of the Masters, the top 4 gallery-favorite golfers this year, before trying to figure out who the golfer of the decade is (28:59). Finally Bill, Dave Chang, Cousin Sal, and James "Baby Doll" Dixon recount some of Thursday's highlights while they were at Augusta National, run through the greatest hits of Sal's many pranks, and dive deeper into the legend of Baby Doll (55:24). Host: Bill Simmons Guests:Joe House, Nathan Hubbard, Cousin Sal, Dave Chang, and James "Baby Doll" Dixon Producers: Kyle Crichton, Ronak Nair, and Jonathan Frias The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is in Augusta, Georgia, and he is joined by Joe House to discuss the Nuggets' shocking decision to fire longtime head coach Michael Malone and general manager Calvin Booth with a week left in the regular season (2:16). Next, Cousin Sal joins Bill and House to peruse some NBA playoff and NFL draft odds (23:51). Then, Bill, House, Sal, Nathan Hubbard, Dave Chang, and James "Baby Doll" Dixon do a quick 2025 Masters draft (57:14) before discussing walking Augusta National Golf Course and more stories from the week so far (01:09:16). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House, Cousin Sal, Dave Chang, Nathan Hubbard, and James "Baby Doll" Dixon Producers: Kyle Crichton, Chia Hao Tat, and Eduardo Ocampo Presented by the all-new 2025 Nissan Armada. Learn more at https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/crossovers-suvs/armada/html The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jordan and Max answer audience questions and it's all eating in beds, bribing Max to sauna and ice, Alinea LA, the caramel debacle, white wine talk, Max critiques a meal cooked by chef Jordo, what's going on with Leopardo, bang bangs and chubby tales, a night at RVR with more eating notes, "diners" in Los Angeles, Jordan thinks he's sober, Max's pod compensations, a Jodeci moment, dessert in Japan, caviar vessels, and Dave Chang crab comments.

We're back! It's the long-awaited return of Recipe Club, this time with some new rules. This season's host, extraordinaire Chris Ying, is joined by Chef and competitor Dave Chang to give an overview of how this season will be different: they talk about the new format, reveal episode themes, and Dave scopes out some of his competition. In this episode, the stage is set. In the next episode, the competition of Recipe Club Season 4 begins! Hosts: Chris Ying and David Chang Producers: Kelsey Reardon, David Meyer, Noelle Cornelio Director: Ira Chute Engineering: Victoria Valencia, Cory McConnell Editor: Ira Chute Production Coordinator: Molly O'Keeffe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Sheil Kapadia to ask the question "What is going on with the Eagles?" before Sheil gives his five biggest bummer seasons through three weeks (1:35), Then Bill talks with Dave Chang about Jayden Daniels's incredible performance on 'MNF' vs. the Bengals, finally having a QB in Washington, Joey Chestnut vs. Kobayashi, and more before Bill fires off some food takes (36:13). Finally, Bill talks with David Shoemaker about the making of the new Netflix documentary 'Mr. McMahon,' premiering Wednesday, September 25 (1:21:23). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Sheil Kapadia, Dave Chang, and David Shoemaker Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, writer (and Chris's first boss out of college!) Andrew Leland joins the pod to talk about his experience with retinitis pigmentosa and common misconceptions about blind people. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Andrew Leland Producers: Victoria Valencia, Gabi Marler, and Euno Lee Additional Production Supervision: Cory McConnell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, the creator of the captivating podcast turned TV show ‘Song Exploder' joins Dave and Chris to explore the kitchen equivalent of demo tapes, the as-yet-unrealized dream that is Cookie Exploder, that time U2 put an album on everyone's phone, eating like a Buddhist monk, disrobing at a dinner party, what makes great restaurant music, and Dave's unbroken record of never having watched 'The West Wing.' Listen to Hrishikesh's dinner party playlist here. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Hrishikesh Hirway Producers: Sasha Ashall and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, Dave Arnold joins Dave and Chris to talk about fat washing, which leads to a conversation about the merits of originality and innovation in the culinary world. Dave Arnold deciphers fancy-sounding bartending techniques and describes the “bar test” he uses to determine whether a bar's cocktails are worth ordering. Plus: an all-time rant about foams on cocktails, and top five fruits, including the best pears money can buy. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Dave Arnold Producer: Victoria Valencia, Gabi Marler, and Euno Lee Additional Production Supervision: Cory McConnell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, Dave and Chris sit down with 'Speed & Scale' authors and venture-capital veterans John Doerr and Ryan Panchadsaram to discuss what their new book has to tell the food world about climate change and what we can still do to solve it. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guests: John Doerr and Ryan Panchadsaram Associate Producers: Sasha Ashall and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, after appearing in one of our most popular episodes ever—“Debunking Microwave Myths”—Boston University professor Greg Blonder rejoins the show to discuss the science behind nonstick pans, stainless steel, and other household cooking items. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Greg Blonder Producers: Isaac Lee and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, Pulitzer Prize-winning art critic, beloved 'Dave Chang Show' guest, and 'Art is Life' author Jerry Saltz returns to survey the state of art and food in 2022, and deliver a bracing dose of motivation to Dave, Chris, and anyone else out there embarking on a potentially terrifying creative endeavor. Also: ancient DNA, private psyches, Chris Ofili, Laurie Anderson, zombie formalism, the end of linear time, dirty shamans, Jasper Johns, caveman cooking, F. Murray Abraham, Ai Weiwei, 'The Raft of the Medusa,' Dolly Parton, fighting your demons, Neal Brennan, Thomas Kinkade, art vs. craftsmanship, Cy Twombly, Jason Polan, and a Coen Brothers debate. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Jerry Saltz Producers: Sasha Ashall, Jordan Bass, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave is revisiting some of his favorite episodes and interviews for his ‘Best of Dave Chang Show' series. In this episode, Dave was joined by Pulitzer Prize–winning art critic Jerry Saltz to talk about the parallels between art and food in both abstract and concrete ways. Host: Dave Chang Guest: Jerry Saltz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Shelby and Andrew team up to introduce the world's greatest game show! Well, it's at least the world's newest game show if you listen to this as soon as it drops. We list popular travel places, guess how much it would cost to go there and then have a couple of minutes to try to beat that price! It's wild. We also talk about Dave Chang's Dinner Time Live and The Menu. Shelby spills her wine and Andrew has a major life change. This episode has it all!

One-on-one podcast today, Chris is in Stockholm, and Jason is home in Glendale. We chat about integrating expressions, you gotta fast car, Elordi on the lam, hey, can I ask how much you pay for rent? The hottest bedtime is 9 pm, a life-or-death Lyft Black, a rainy dinner at Matu, TJ went to the Mark Ronson W Magazine party, YSL lunchbox, we give a shout out to Dua Lipa, how to use any hotel bathroom, call me Bragg the way I trust my gut, Bob Dylan does not want to sing We Are The World, and Dave Chang's new Netflix cooking show. twitter.com/donetodeath twitter.com/themjeans Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Accelerators (Drs. Matt Spraker and Simul Parikh) host Radiation Oncologist and prolific X'er Dr. Dave Chang for a discussion of Small Market Radiation Oncology.We wax philosophical about the work and life of docs formerly known as #LittleRadOnc: radiation oncologists often under resourced and practicing solo, working miles away from large US cities.  Dave's personal stories emphasize that the reality of radiation oncology "maldistribution" is a lot more complicated than is often described by city slicker researchers. Simul and Dave close the episode by discussing practical problems faced by Small Market Radiation Oncology and potential solutions, including... of course... supervision policy! The only link for this show is the X announcement of Dr. Glaucomflecken's medical school.The Accelerators Podcast is a Photon Media production. 

The Ringer's Bill Simmons shares his thoughts on James Harden's decision to pick up his $35.6 million player option and reports that the 76ers are looking to trade him (1:05). Then, Bill is joined by Logan Murdock to discuss the Lakers' aspirations for the 2023-24 NBA season, their potential acquisition of Bruce Brown, and why Bill thinks they may be the second-best team in the Western Conference (13:15). They then discuss the new-look Warriors with Chris Paul, questions about who is making the critical decisions for Golden State, which of the Warriors veterans will need to take a pay cut to stay with the team, and more (35:28). Finally, Bill is joined by renowned restaurateur Dave Chang to discuss FX's 'The Bear,' how it depicted the perils of opening an ambitious new restaurant, the state of restaurants in 2023, food trends, and more (1:10:13). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Dave Chang and Logan Murdock Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jahadi White and Matt Modderno break down the Wizards' latest trades and draft picks and discuss what that means for their future. Jahadi gives a ringing endorsement to both Jordan Poole and Bilal Coulibaly and thinks they are the right pieces to start a rebuild with. Can Bilal Coulibaly play point guard the way the front office seems to believe he can? Jahadi explains why he can and why that makes them such an intriguing backcourt of the future. He also discusses an interesting rumor from celebrity chef Dave Chang about whether or not Allen Iverson used to sleep in class behind him. They close to the show by talking about the Wizards' Summer League team additions to date. Presented by Betonline.ag!

Dave's journey to culinary mastery and innovation was anything but ordinary. An early (and successful) pursuit of golf could have easily kept Dave out of the kitchen, but his desire to cook great food, and to do it in a new way, had him trading in his clubs and golf cart for spatulas and aprons, and never looking back.From betting his whole future on his first restaurant in 2004 to opening dozens of other restaurants since, the road of culinary innovation has kept him on his toes and unafraid to try new things. His pursuit has led him to critically acclaimed works in television, writing, and podcasting, and obviously, restaurants. Listen in on today's episode of Without Compromise to hear Dave's story and be sure to check out Dave's drink of the summer, Ripe Pursuit, a lemon-infused, radler-style brew at AthleticBrewing.com. 

The Ringer's Bill Simmons and Dave Chang get caught up in some Twitter beef and decide to open up their own pod truck after rewatching Jon Favreau's delightful road comedy ‘Chef,' starring Jon Favreau, John Leguizamo, and Sofia Vergara. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Arnold joins Dave Chang and Chris Ying to talk about fat washing, which leads to a conversation about the merits of originality and innovation in the culinary world. Dave Arnold deciphers fancy-sounding bartending techniques and gives his “bar test” that he uses to determine whether a bar's cocktails are worth ordering. Plus: an all-time rant about foams on cocktails, and top five fruits including the best pears money can buy.Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Dave Arnold Producer: Victoria Valencia, Cory McConnell, Gabi Marler, and Euno Lee Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Bill Simmons and Joe House discuss whether there's more pressure on the Suns after the KD trade with Mikal Bridges thriving. Plus, is the load management era devaluing the MVP award? Should the West actually be afraid of the Lakers? How did two of the league's biggest assets turn into two of the season's biggest disappointments? And more (2:57)! Then, Bill and House are joined by Dave Chang and Nathan Hubbard to recap their time at Augusta National for Day 1 of the Masters Tournament. They also discuss Tiger Woods's visible pain, Brooks Koepka's hot start, players with a realistic shot at winning the Masters, updated odds, and more (41:02). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House, Dave Chang, and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang joins House and Hubbard in Augusta after walking the course on Wednesday. They start by recapping everything they've eaten so far, then discuss their course observations and what they saw from certain golfers. Hosts: Joe House and Nathan Hubbard Guest: Dave Chang Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Bill Simmons sits down with Dave Chang, Joe House, and Nathan Hubbard in Augusta, Georgia, to discuss returning to Augusta National Golf Course, the biggest Masters Tournament story lines, food debates, favorite Masters bets, and more (2:07). Then Bill is joined by singer-songwriter Jason Isbell to discuss the new HBO Music Box documentary, ‘Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed'—premiering April 7 (51:26). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jason Isbell, Dave Chang, Joe House, and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave and Chris buckle in for an odyssey across southern California, from the potentially drug-addled haze of Joshua Tree to the deal-induced fervor of Costco. Other topics of conversation include Domino's Pizza, food health and safety standards, the opening of Torrisi in New York City, and whether it's okay to like tikka masala. Then, they discuss the differences between commercial truffle products and the real thing and how truffle has become more of a status symbol than a delicious thing to eat. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producers: Sasha Ashall and Aleya Zenieris Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang shares his New Year's resolutions for the upcoming year, then Dave and Chris swap stories about their holiday celebrations. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producers: Sasha Ashall and Noelle Cornelio Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Fill up your eggnog cup and start peeling those roasted chestnuts, because it's time for a guide to Christmas, the Dave Chang way: what to eat, what to avoid, and how to maneuver your way around hungry guests, restless kids, and the inner desire to spend several days prepping a duck. Assembled around the auditory Yule log: Rutger Hauer, hummus forecasting, Faviken tobacco, alternative GORP recipes, Inka Corn, how Keith Ying eats dumplings, Christmas cookies vs. gingerbread houses, huaraches that got away, pro-Scrooge attitudes, Dave's matzo ball soup, what Hugo wants for Christmas, mall Santas, advent calendars, and the worst holiday job to have in a restaurant kitchen. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producers: Sasha Ashall, Jordan Bass, and Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Wedged between a week of on-set cooking and the next wave of holiday meals, Dave, Chris, and Noelle reflect on reindeer snacks, chuck-roast frontiers, and the large-format meals for which the season provides a reason. Plus: Croatia vs. Brazil, geopolitical penalty kicks, Andrew Luck, Olivia Rodrigo, armchair therapist Chris Ying, home cooking vs. pro cooking, shioyaki fish, Yorkshire pudding, hot pot vs. fondue, anti-elf sentiment, dealing with a Christmas tree in NYC, FaceTiming Santa, the Feast of the Seven Fishes vs. Bò bảy món, abalone sauce, and another Chinese-restaurant-menu debate. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Noelle Cornelio Producers: Sasha Ashall and Jordan Bass Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

While other podcasts take a holiday, Dave Chang delivers a last-minute motivational episode covering everything the home cook needs to remember in the hours ahead—and then recruits Chris for the return of a classic 'Dave Chang Show' debate: how to navigate the extensive temptations of an L.A -area Chinese-restaurant menu. Plus: the state of the supermarkets, putting on the eye paint, teaching your children to swear, potluck dream teams, asking your guests to bring the turkey, buying the worst possible pumpkin pie, chasing your main course to the other side of fear, the Rambo mindset, Potemkin menus, top-tier Peking duck, skipping the abalone section, a solo order of fried bones, and a crispy-noodle secret. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producers: Mike Wargon, Jordan Bass, and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With the holiday just days away, Dave takes stock of his culinary game plan, and of the potential perils that still lie ahead—and then jumps into a gravy-soaked MOIF with Noelle and Chris. Included in the table-buckling spread: the full Dave Chang Thanksgiving Menu lineup, emptying the fridge by any means necessary, the six essential starches, za'atar-dusted kabocha with labneh, breaking down squash with a band saw, 'Dances With Wolves,' how Dave makes gravy, beurre noisette, the Big Aristotle, and taking a stand against appetizers. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Noelle Cornelio Producers: Sasha Ashall, Jordan Bass, and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave and Chris sit down with author and critic Hua Hsu to talk through his new book, 'Stay True'—a searing memoir of friendship disrupted by sudden tragedy, and (for Dave) an almost unsettlingly relatable portrait of 1990s life. Also: vocal aromas, circular breathing, feeling like the stuff you like is better than everything else, defining yourself through arcana, going on the internet for the first time, Berry Gordy's 'The Last Dragon,' East Coast Asian friction, distributed Chinatowns, raw marinated crab, teaching at a factory for hip young people, being really into quinoa, Dave Chang at 18, the doomsday outlook, Stephen Malkmus and George Clinton, EQ love languages, 'Gilmore Girls,' Gavin Rossdale, Y2K fears, and listening to the 'Pulp Fiction' soundtrack from beginning to end. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Hua Hsu Producers: Sasha Ashall, Jordan Bass, and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At T-minus ten days, Dave breaks down a few of his favorite Thanksgiving strategies—from turkey prep, to fridge logistics, to the exciting but unfairly neglected world of bonus proteins. With hard lessons drawn from both home kitchens and high-end ones, this is one to listen to as you build out your own battle plan—or as you sit back and feel thankful that you're going out to eat this year instead. Plus: Gus Chang's daily routine, sumo-wrestler stew, Dave's lost Budweiser commercial, styrofoam plates, spicy gravy, the spatchcock moment, basting vs. brining, honey-baked ham, expanding the turducken paradigm, and a Thanksgiving trend-forecast lightning round. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producers: Sasha Ashall and Jordan Bass Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He's been right (and wrong!) many times before, and now Dave's stepping up to the crystal ball once again. What sort of strategies, service styles, and so-stupid-they're-smart concepts will restaurants reinvent themselves around in the years to come? Tune in for the blizzard of predictions, and consider stealing an idea or two to make the prophecy come true. Discussed along the way: invite-only restaurants, the end of food photography, Dave's Korean-BBQ buffet, the point-forward model, convergent evolution, the sushi-bro scourge, eating good food while you're watching Tiesto, Charlie Chaplin, the dinner at the beginning of 'Goodfellas,' the 'Memento' approach to dating, the zhug moment, beef wellington, Oriental Garden, and throwing down the live-cooking gauntlet. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producers: Sasha Ashall, Jordan Bass, and Aleya Zenieris Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang, Chris Ying, and Bryan Ford consider the virtues of a humble yet beloved cut of meat and the post-revolutionary soup it serves so well. Find the recipes for this and every Recipe Club on The Ringer's website, watch the video version of this episode on Spotify, and join the conversation (and cook along with us!) on Discord and Instagram. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Bryan Ford Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With another new MDM show out on Hulu, Pizzana chef and 'Best in Dough' judge Daniele Uditi weighs in on great pizza, bizarro pizza, and pizza that should probably be called something else entirely. Then Dave, Chris, and Noelle dive into their own 'Best in Dough'-inspired pizza reveries. Plus, working in kitchens vs. working in TV, Manhattan cyclist Dave Chang, breakfast pizza, matzoh pizza, the wellspring of pizza authority, when a game becomes your life, dipping some bread in the Sunday gravy, the Neapolitan formula, sushi on pizza, baked-bean pizza, Daniele's inner Super Mario, why fermented dough is like a 5-year-old child, Anthony Mangieri, NYC water, and the Proustian pizza Dave still dreams of. 'Best in Dough' is out now on Hulu. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guests: Daniele Uditi and Noelle Cornelio Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Faithfully following doctor's orders, Dave Chang, John deBary, and Bryan Ford head to Trader Joe's to try out a weeknight meatless meatball recipe—and to contemplate a few of the plant-based delights they're still searching for. Find the recipes for this and every 'Recipe Club' on The Ringer's website, watch the video version of this episode on Spotify, and join the conversation (and cook along with us!) on Discord and Instagram. Host: Dave Chang Guests: Bryan Ford and John deBary Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A Cometeer-fueled trip to the Codfish State has Dave buzzing with new discoveries about how to make familiar things just a little bit better—and how to make the modern-day airport experience a good bit worse. Also covered: what to eat near Gloucester, Joe Versus the Volcano, Spider-Tracers, a shout-out to Claud, Tristar strawberries, Jimmy Nardellos, gourmet Cold Stone, Dave becoming a coffee taster, making miso in Kyoto, three-buck Chardonnay, Wrigley's gum, haddock bites, sublime Rhode Island chowder, and Dave Chang's seafood shack commandments. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang, Chris Ying, and John deBary tackle a Peruvian-Chinese double-starch delicacy—the steak-and-French-fry combo known as lomo saltado. Find the recipes for this and every Recipe Club on The Ringer's website, watch the video version of this episode on YouTube and Spotify, and join the conversation (and cook along with us!) on Discord and Instagram. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: John deBary Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There's no better way to celebrate Dave Chang's forty-fifth trip around the sun than an end-of-summer MOIF, featuring such hot-button topics as: Mike Birbiglia, a flawless visit to Providence, mid-meal malingering, touching the stew, Dion Waiters, dish traffic control, the In-N-Out-order phantom zone, shrimp heads, seasonal restaurants, Midwest supper clubs, fear of teenagers, and the farmers' market hummus guy Hydra. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Noelle Cornelio Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang, Rachel Khong, and Priya Krishna convene to consider a beloved homemade hummus recipe featuring a secret ingredient concealed (or maybe congealed?) within the chickpea can. Find the recipes for this and every Recipe Club on The Ringer's website, watch the video version of this episode on YouTube and Spotify, and join the conversation (and cook along with us!) on Discord and Instagram. Host: Dave Chang Guests: Rachel Khong and Priya Krishna Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On an episode for the ages, Dave Chang takes us through a full deck of unforgettable dishes—the ones he never stops thinking about. He covers 50-plus brushes with culinary perfection, from childhood up through trips to Tokyo and Texas and Sao Paulo and Mumbai. It's a core-memory highlight reel like no other, the benchmarks Dave uses to measure everything else, never assembled in one place beyond his brain—until now. Host: Dave Chang Producers: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In-N-Out Burger has had an almost unparalleled run as one of the most beloved operations in the western U.S., but there's still one holdout rolling doubtfully past the drive-thru. His name is Dave Chang. Dave, Chris, and Noelle break down what In-N-Out does so well, and why he can't just let love in. Also discussed: all-out waffles, North Korean noodles, Dave's Park's BBQ order, Southern California mumbo-jumbo, small-town athleticism, jalapeño poppers, the perfect iceberg lettuce, eating a hamburger at 10:30 a.m., Noelle's In-N-Out instructions, data-driven drive-thrus, faith-based French fry preferences, the world's tiniest toaster oven, orbital ordering systems, the In-N-Out Art of War, and the best thing to eat in your car. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Noelle Cornelio Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a brief respite between his travels, Dave Chang teaches you everything you need to know about making dashi at home, then decodes his interview with Chris Bianco. He explains the classic-to-modern chef spectrum, the significance of legendary chefs Roberto Donna, Jean-Louis Palladin, and David Tanis, Bianco's gumption in the face of titans of industry, the lifecycle of perfecting a new dish, and how failure is a crucial part of the creative process. Host: Dave Chang Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Chris Ying, Jordan Bass, and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the great quesadilla cosmos, there is one quesadilla that Dave Chang has never encountered before. Today, Dave, Chris, and Bryan Ford pursue a dish close to Bryan's heart: the Honduran quesadilla. Find the recipes for this and every Recipe Club on The Ringer's website, watch the video version of this episode on YouTube and Spotify, and join the conversation (and cook along with us!) on Discord and Instagram. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Bryan Ford Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With his trip to Italy in the rearview, Dave takes to the mic to break down the surprising highs and occasional luggage-related lows of a week or so overseas, as well as: hotel-room tipping, Italian airport food, looking at the countryside from a train, bringing salumi on the flight back, Friulian wine, simple trattorias in the middle of nowhere, Negroni spritzes, not taking photos, Vecchia Roma, carciofi fritti, Gambero Rosso, eating oxtail and antipasti at Cesare al Casaletto, wedding vongole, Safi Bahcall, sizing up the Sistine Chapel, gelato vs. ice cream, and a pizza-pocket meal at a Roman mall McDonald's. Host: Dave Chang Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do you do when your kid only wants plain rice—or worse, rice with American cheese? With the help of our friends at buybuy BABY, Dave and Chris kick off 'Clean Plate Club,' our new series on cooking for kids, with a conversation about the toughest diner out there: the picky eater. Also: going from dad of one to dad of two, unreliable advice, first-year fears, steel-wool slinkies, chicken nuggets and pesto macaroni, naturally occurring dinosaurs, the pain points of parenting, the pure joy of Gus, and what happens when a grain of rice touches the sauce. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave and Chris call up Acre Venture Partners co-founder Lucas Mann to talk about how a future-focused VC firm engages with the tough-to-change worlds of food and agriculture—and about why Dave and Acre decided to work together. Plus: Patagonia vests, alternative protein, brilliant and world-changing people doing totally off-the-wall shit, getting a degree in Tibetan Buddhism, pork cocoons, 3D-printed fish grown in a car trunk, Slow Food, the sugar-industrial complex, the Island of Dr. Moreau, and a last-minute shark-tank pitch from Dave Chang. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Lucas Mann Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Great Pizza Debate continues with Recipe Club veteran and New World Sourdough author Bryan Ford stepping up to contend with unrepentant homemade pizza skeptic Dave Chang—but when the doppio-zero dust clears, whose pizza path will the world choose to follow? Plus: haircut narcolepsy, pan de coco, Dave making Jamaican food, heirloom Hot Pockets, putting bread on a pedestal, pulling up to the retirement community with the wood-fired pizza oven, open-crumb shots, Brian Scalabrine, and an honest assessment of Chris's pasta salad. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Bryan Ford Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What was life like for a young New York chef chasing a dream in the early 2000s? Milk Bar founder and Dave Chang chosen-family member Christina Tosi was there to see it, and her latest book, 'Dessert Can Save the World,' relays a lot of what she learned then and since. Christina calls up Dave and Chris to consider what she and Dave were like in their 20s, the smile vs. the grimace, the power of not having a plan, barbecue soft serve, the everything-bagel influence of Wylie Dufresne, proving Dave wrong, rainbow sprinkles, work-life ratios, eating multiple bowls of Honey Bunches of Oats, Dave discovering chocolate milk, and what might happen if Christina Tosi faced off against the Wheel of Constraint. Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Christina Tosi Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With a crab-or-prime-rib-driven 80th birthday party to plan, Dave, Chris, and Noelle set out to survey the Southern California seafood-banquet landscape, and attempt to chart the ideal parameters of a celebratory family meal. Also explored: Dave's body falling apart, a real-life candy draft, whether Veggie Straws are vegetables, Brodard Chateau, Dave's thoughts on Renaissance architecture, Noelle's dinner at HaiDiLao, table-side cooking, and Recipe Club returning tomorrow! Hosts: Dave Chang and Chris Ying Guest: Noelle Cornelio Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Jordan Bass and Lala Rasor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices