Podcasts about thinking machines

New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:23 Episode start9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning54:57 Book The Conference Before You're InvitedWe're also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtMConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Hey, it's Alex (yeah, I'm finally back from my vacation!) What a freaking week to come back to! Just after our last episode was published, Anthropic releases Opus 5, Jensen joins X and drops the “Open Weights & AI Leadership” open letter, Kimi K3 is released the following Monday beating expectations, and then the AI hack (OpenAI model breaking sandbox and infiltrating HuggingFace) is on everyone's mind, another Open Letter, this time from over 1K employees inside the frontier AI companies all talk about pacing the pace of frontier AI development. We played with Opus 5 and Kimi K3, and had the great pleasure to chat with friends of the pod Elie Bakouch (Prime Intellect) and Philip Kiely (BaseTen) about this important open weights release, then covered our general thoughts on Opus 5, and made order of all the different open letters that came out this week. Finally we chatted with Max from Pangram about the next version of AI writing detection (their biggest yet) and finished with Zuckerbergs (also on X! what's going on with everyone joining X) op-ed on the vision of personal superintelligence for everyone. Let's dive into this (as always, all the links and sources at the end, please don't forget to sub to our podcast on your favorite podcast app!) Open Weights AIKimi K3 the king of open weights - 2.8T chonker MoE near frontier model (X, HF, Blog, Tech report)This has got to be the biggest news of this week, and maybe the open weights AI news since GLM 5.2. MoonShot came back with Kimi K3, and we haven't seen any models quite this large in the open. Even Grok 4.5 is around 1.5T, this model is nearly 2x the size. Coming in at close to 3T parameters (and 2.5terabytes of weights at MXFP4 format), this model comes in very close to frontier! This was such an important release that I invited 2 friends of the pod, Elie Bakouch (prev HuggingFace, now Prime Intellect) and Philip Kiely (Author of Inference Engineering book, BaseTen) to dive deep into what makes this special! Elie's take, from reading the tech report, there's no single secret sauce, it's a combination of already available in the open techniques. Like KDA (Kimi Delta Attention) that has been out for a while, attention residuals, NVIDIA's latent MoEs. The highlight for Elie was the scaling work they did that reported a 2.5x scaling efficiency over Kimi K2.5 (2.5 performance at the same compute)! They also skipped RoPE entirely in favor of NoPE (the report calls it No Positional Encoding) for long context.Serving 1.4TB on eight GB300s (Baseten blog)Philip's team at Baseten was a day-zero provider (we're still working on bringing this model to CW Inference, stay tuned!) so I invited him to tell us behind the scenes of hosting this beast. Philip said that just loading the weights takes about 1.5TB!! of VRAM, and that's before the KV cache allocation + 1M token windows, so they're serving it on 8 GB300s where NVL72 . Baseten worked with the vLLM and SGLang teams on kernels and he also said they contributed patches back upstream! The model was trained with MXFP4, which, unlike Nvidia's own NVFP4 is a more standard format per Philip. I enjoyed his deep dive analysis into the differences, but because of this and because they trained the model with quantization awareness, it's “only” 1.5TB vs the would-be 5-6 TB if that this model in FP16 would demand. One of the more favorite nerd snipes moments, Philip pointed out that his colleague discovered that with over 99% of the usage being cached (think harnesses that send millions of the same cached tokens back and forth), tokenization actually starts to become a bottleneck. So they released a custom “basetenkenizer” that reduces the latency to serve the first token significantly! Great job!The harness in question is very importantOne important callout with 2 evidence pieces - the way you inference this model really matters. Kimi trained K3 with preserving thinking history, so when your harness uses it, it must send back the full thinking and tool use into the API to get the best next response. If your harness strips that out, you're not getting the most intelligence out of Kimi (shoutout to Niels from HF team for pointing this out). Additionally, the Composio folks, tested K3 on 3 harnesses, Kimi Code, Hermes and Claude Code. The difference in outcome was negligible, but the different in cost and number of tokens is definitely surprising! Claude Code (as a harness only) took 9x more Kimi tokens to get the same responses! This is also why Kimi Vendor Verified exists, their own held back benchmark of how well model providers serve Kimi across different quantization, tokenizer and KV cache settings. Benchmarks and the license! Ok let's start with the ugly... this isn't MIT, not remotely. This model is suspiciously served by all providers with exactly the same price (check OpenRouter) and requires inference companies to sign a contract with Kimi (I've no internal knowledge of this except that CW folks are working on it). Not something I particularly like, but hey... we're still advancing the frontier here! Speaking of frontier, this model approaches the frontier very closely. On DeepSWE, K3 sits just behind Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol at 67%, beating GPT-5.5 & Opus 4.8. On Terminal-Bench 2.1 it takes second place behind GPT 5.6 Sol! It's 4th overall on Agentic Arena, with frontend design being genuinely good across the board - 1st on Design Arena

האם חברת הרובוטיקה הגדולה הבאה בעולם תצמח דווקא מישראל? יונתן יעקובי השיק את "אניגמה" - חברת Physical AI ישראלית שנחשפת עם גיוס Seed של 71 מיליון דולר. את הסבב הובילו Index Ventures ו-Ribbit Capital, ובהשתתפות Conviction, אסף רפפורט ומשקיעים ובכירים מחברות AI מובילות ובהן OpenAI, Anthropic, xAI, Thinking Machines, Cognition ו-Mercor.יעקובי החל ללמוד מדעי המחשב כבר בגיל 13 ובהמשך הפך לעובד הצעיר ביותר בתולדות Microsoft ו-Check Point. לצדו עומד גל ניב, שהחל לעסוק בפריצות חומרה כבר בגיל 10, עבד בחברת סייבר בגיל 17 והפך למנהל מבצעי הסייבר הצעיר ביותר בתולדות יחידת 8200. השניים הכירו במהלך שירותם הצבאי, ומאז חולקים חזון משותף, לבנות את התשתית שתאפשר לרובוטים להפוך מכלי מחקר וניסויים לטכנולוגיה שתשתלב בחיי היומיום של כולנו.בפרק, יהונתן מספר על המסלול הלא שגרתי שהוביל אותו מהנדסה לאחור של משחקי מחשב דרך יחידת 8200 ועד להקמת החברה. הוא מסביר למה רובוטים היום מתוכנתים רק למשימות ספציפיות ולא מבינים את העולם באופן כללי, איך מודלי יסוד לרובוטיקה יכולים לשנות את זה, ולמה הוא מאמין שאפשר לפתח טכנולוגיה מתקדמת בישראל ולהתחרות עם ענקיות עמק הסיליקון. בנוסף, הוא חושף את הפלטפורמה האונליין שמאפשרת לכל אחד לשלוט בזרוע רובוטית בזמן אמת ולראות את הטכנולוגיה בפעולה.השאלה המרכזית בפרק: למה הרובוטיקה עדיין לא חוותה את רגע המהפכה שלה, ואיך מעבדת מחקר ישראלית מתכוונת לשנות את זה?חותמת זמן0:00 - היכרות עם יונתן יעקובי וגיוס של 71 מיליון דולר2:50 - תואר במדעי המחשב בגיל 13 והנדסה לאחור של משחקים7:23 - העבודה הראשונה בצ'ק פוינט בגיל 16 והמעבר למיקרוסופט13:49 - השירות ב-8200 והתחרויות נגד השותף לעתיד20:01 - מההשתחררות ועד להחלטה להקים את אניגמה24:09 - למה רובוטים צריכים 'רגע ה-ChatGPT' משלהם?28:52 - החזון: מודלים אינטואיטיביים וג'נרטיביים לרובוטים30:52 - האתגר: הקמת מעבדת מחקר בישראל ותחרות על טאלנטים37:15 - תוכנית הפעולה: איך הופכים רעיון מחקרי לטכנולוגיה שימושית?41:11 - ההשקה: פלטפורמה שמאפשרת לכל אחד לשלוט ברובוט אמיתי אונליין44:42 - מסר ליזמים: לא לפחד לחלום בגדול, גם מישראל

In recent months, the open vs closed, and US vs China discussions on model ownership and sovereign/local AI have heated up to a fever pitch. So it is very very good news that Poolside AI are finally emerging with new models, like Laguna S 2.1, that are beating Thinking Machines' recent release nearly 10 times their size.Poolside's recent tech report got a lot of praise due to their level of detail, and Vibhu first covered Laguna's recent technical report on our paper club:From spending $12 million building language models for code before the world cared to creating a Model Factory that can take a model from pre-training to release in eight weeks, Eiso Kant has spent more than a decade betting that code is the path to AGI. In this episode, the Poolside co-founder joins swyx and Vibhu to explain why ChatGPT felt like vindication, why Poolside embraced open weights and open research, and why he would rather live in a world with 100 foundation model companies than five even if Poolside were one of the five.We go deep on Poolside's Model Factory: the engineering systems behind 10,000–20,000 experiments per month, streaming data directly into training, reproducible experimentation, low-precision compute, and agents that increasingly write code, launch jobs, evaluate results, and modify the pipelines used to train future models. Eiso also unpacks their recent launch Laguna S, why persistence, verification, and backtracking may matter more than raw intelligence, how much capability remains inside smaller models, why reinforcement learning will move earlier into pre-training, and why next-token prediction is still extracting too little from the web.We also discuss model-harness co-design, Poolside's path from coding agents to AGI, why Eiso thinks MCP and traditional tool calls are “stupid,” the real economics behind frontier-model training, Poolside's $500 million raise, open-source AI, regulation, NVIDIA and TSMC's influence, engineering productivity in the agent era, high-agency teams, and hiring at Poolside.We discuss:* How Andrej Karpathy's RNN work inspired Eiso to start building language models for code in 2015* Why Eiso spent four years and $12 million pursuing an idea before the market cared* Why ChatGPT felt like vindication and brought Poolside back to open source* Why Eiso would prefer 100 foundation model companies over an oligopoly of five* The difference between releasing open weights and publishing genuinely open research* Why Poolside deliberately built a global research organization outside the Bay Area talent war* Why model building is ultimately 90% engineering* The Model Factory: Poolside's end-to-end system for rapidly training and improving models* How fewer than 70 researchers run roughly 10,000–20,000 experiments each month* How Poolside moved from six-month model cycles to five- and eight-week launches* Why streaming data directly into training unlocked faster experimentation* How immutable data, versioned code, and reproducibility enable rigorous model research* Why Eiso wants capable researchers to leave their labs and become Poolside's competitors* Why 95% of model building can be reduced to better data or compute efficiency* Laguna S and why persistence, verification, and backtracking can outperform raw intelligence* Why smaller models may handle far more knowledge work than previously expected* Why reinforcement learning will move earlier into pre-training* Why next-token prediction is still failing to extract enough knowledge from the web* Why distillation and environments have become the AI industry's favorite “drugs”* Why mid-training is really an early form of curriculum design* Low-precision training, networking bottlenecks, and the next gains in compute efficiency* Laguna S: 118 billion total parameters, 8 billion active, and eight weeks from training to launch* Why model builders can often evaluate a new checkpoint within its first 30 minutes* Model versus harness: where agent capabilities actually come from* Why Poolside sees coding and long-horizon software tasks as a path to AGI* Why Eiso thinks MCP and traditional tool calls are “stupid”* Why future agents will write scripts instead of choosing from dozens of predefined tools* The case for minimal harnesses, containers, and model freedom* Why Poolside is prioritizing vision but does not expect to work on audio soon* Why language may be the most compute-efficient modality for encoding knowledge and reasoning* The real cost of model development and why the final training run is anticlimactic* The story behind the Poolside name and why it represents refusing to lower ambitions* How Poolside raised $500 million while investors still questioned whether AGI was real* Why intelligence could become the world's most demanded and commoditized resource* When open models may become too capable to release without restrictions* Why unilateral AI safety does not work in a globally competitive environment* How regulation could accidentally lock in an oligopoly of two or three AI companies* NVIDIA, TSMC, and the hardware systems underpinning foundation-model progress* Why reinforcement-learning wall-clock time is one of Poolside's biggest bottlenecks* Why Poolside trains models from scratch instead of simply distilling larger models* How AI changes the way companies should measure engineering productivity* Why agency may become the most important quality for employees in the AI era* How leaders align high-agency people through shared goals and clear constraints* Hiring across research, post-training, pre-training, architecture, evals, and engineering at PoolsideEiso KantLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eisokantX: https://x.com/eisokantPoolside: https://poolside.aiTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:00:54 Karpathy, RNNs, and Building Code Models Before Transformers00:02:26 The $12M Failure and ChatGPT Vindication00:03:39 Open Source and the Case for 100 Foundation Model Companies00:09:22 Open Weights, Open Research, and Poolside's Global Team00:16:04 The Model Factory: Why Model Building Is 90% Engineering00:20:19 Agents, Automated Experiments, and Early Signs of RSI00:24:04 Streaming Data, Reproducibility, and Scientific Rigor00:30:35 Creating More Foundation Model Companies00:36:07 Laguna S: Persistence vs. Raw Intelligence00:43:01 Reinventing Pre-Training, RL, and Curriculum Design00:52:33 Low-Precision Training and Squeezing More From Smaller Models00:58:37 Model Harnesses, Coding Agents, and the Path to AGI01:09:26 Why MCP and Traditional Tool Calls Are “Stupid”01:13:04 Vision, Multimodality, and Why Language Still Matters01:18:15 Scaling Models and the Real Economics of Training01:20:40 Why Poolside Is Called Poolside and Raising $500M01:27:37 Open Models, AI Safety, and the Risk of an Oligopoly01:33:53 NVIDIA, TSMC, and the Reinforcement-Learning Bottleneck01:41:52 Smaller Models, Distillation, Engineering Productivity, and HiringTranscriptIntroduction: Eiso Kant, Poolside, and Open ModelsSwyx [00:00:00]: All right, we're here in the studio with Eiso Kant from Poolside, together with Vibhu. Welcome.Eiso Kant [00:00:08]: Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. Good to be here.Swyx [00:00:10]: Yeah, fresh on the plane. You texted me, you were like, “Hey, I'm on my way to SF.” I was like, “You're on a plane right now, right?” Like, hey.Eiso Kant [00:00:16]: I know. After I texted you, I realized that probably coming in with major jet lag was gonna offer some fun experiences today, but let's do it.Swyx [00:00:23]: I mean, I think the thing I would tell guests is that they don't have to prepare that much because if you're truly working on this every single day, then even, like, what you hazily remember is going to be new for a lot of the audience that don't live in your world every day, right? so 10 years ago, you did a talk at Google Slush, talking about the democratization of AI. and, now here you are, like, open sourcing an incredible new model that we're gonna talk about. But I guess, like, what got you into democratization of AI? Like, it's not obvious from your LinkedIn or something.From Karpathy's RNN Post to SourcedEiso Kant [00:00:57]: No, it's not at all. I don't think it's obvious how I got in this space. I owe getting into this space to Andrej Karpathy.Eiso Kant [00:01:05]: In 2015, he wrote an article called “The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Recurrent Neural Nets.”Swyx [00:01:10]: Neural Nets, yep.Eiso Kant [00:01:11]: And that article, I read it, and I pivoted my startup at the time overnight to working on RNNs, and later LSTMs and Transformer models to be able to write code. If you go to this article and you scroll down, you can start seeing, like, this was the precursor to what ended up becoming language models. So, at least when he was character-level language models that were starting to predict letters, he has an example out here. There's a little Paul Graham generator, and you can read it, and the text makes sense, but it doesn't. and there's a little-- There's an example of code a little bit further down. Yeah, so Shakespeare.Swyx [00:01:47]: Shakespeare.Swyx [00:01:49]: CoolEiso Kant [00:01:49]: And for some reason, I read this, and I went down the rabbit hole of learning everything I could about RNNs and LSTMs, right? This is Transformer paper. And I had built a completely unreasonable belief, that neural nets should be able to generalize to anything and everything, and that language should be able to generalize, to a lot of things that are intelligent and the ability to write code. And so I started building Sourced, which was a fully open source company trying to build, what we used to call machine learning on code, language models on code. And we spent about four or five years on this, till the end of 2019. And that sounds really cool today, but back then, no one cared.Eiso Kant [00:02:29]: Right? Like, no one cared. We were in the dark. Like, we did things along the way. We tried applying convolutional neural nets to, like, the structure of code. We were. when attention came out, we were applying it to LSTMs, and then the Transformer paper came out. And it - it wasn't obvious, and what we missed throughout that entire journey, that we were on the right track, but we should have just kept scaling up. And today, to all of us, the scaling laws and scaling up seems like the most obvious thing. But having spent four or five years of my life on working on language models on code, it wasn't obvious. So I have a lot of respect to folks at Google and OpenAI and others who took that confidence and kept going. we failed ultimately at the time, and it was, like, biggest failure of my career, right? You blew $12 million of investors' money, which was a lot back then.Swyx [00:03:18]: Yep.Eiso Kant [00:03:19]: You spent, still a lot, but, And you spent years with, like, a group of 40 people just obsessing over this problem. And life took a different turn, And it was, and family became a focus, and I kept my heads down and really, didn't really look at language models for the following two years. big mistake considering Following years are gonna be really interesting. And then ChatGPT came out And it was like a vindication. It's like people started texting me. I found, like, my old, work decks and these old talks. And throughout that whole journey, we,ChatGPT, Vindication, and Returning to Open SourceEiso Kant [00:03:56]: We really had a strong point of view at the time that, like, as you're building more capable intelligence, it should be open and open source.Eiso Kant [00:04:04]: When we started Poolside, that wasn't the case at all, and I wanna be very open about it. When we started Poolside, we were like, there was a premise of two things. One is this technology is not gonna stop compounding in capabilities. I think to most people obvious today, but three-plus years ago when we started, most people were still arguing if these were stochastic parrots or not.Eiso Kant [00:04:23]: And the second was that reinforcement learning was gonna be the biggest driver for LLM capabilities. Today, very obvious. Three years ago, was not an opinion held or direction held at either OpenAI or Google or Anthropic or others. And so people looked down on us a little bit. They were like, “ is this really gonna work?” And so we just started working the problem, and we never really thought about open source again. We just kept our heads down and we built our, like, knowledge, understanding from scratch, right? We didn't roll out of an existing lab. So we picked up the papers and started writing code and figuring things out.Eiso Kant [00:04:59]: And it wasn't until the beginning of this year that me and my founder, Jason, picked up the open source conversation again.Eiso Kant [00:05:07]: And if you go back to some of the early things on our website, it was very straightforward. It was we wanna get to AGI, we wanna support a world of abundance, and we wanna be the first company that gets there.Eiso Kant [00:05:20]: But we started talking at the beginning of this year because it became obvious that the world was going in a direction that was starting to like, pick at us a little bit. Like, it didn't, this didn't happen overnight. It was, like, a little bit we were seeing this and we're like, “Okay, The world's going down a path.” And Throughout this journey, there was something that I used as a, as an analogy or thing. So I said well, if I go back to back in those days, 2015 or 2016, we're working on this, and I picked up a fi book off the shelf, and I was reading the book about 2035. AGI is achieved, and the story would be over the following, decades. And it would have that first chapter where everyone's trying to figure things out. You'd get the chapter of ChatGPT coming out And then you would get to the chapter where the world was at a fork in the road, and the one that it picked was one where three or four or a handful of companies were going to create all of intelligence moving forward.Eiso Kant [00:06:21]: And when I thought about that story, it felt like a dystopian fi book, not a utopian fi book. And the reality is, I'm a utopian fi guy. Like, and so We took a step back and said, “Hey, can we play a role here?” Now it was easy for us to do so because we were not at the frontier.Eiso Kant [00:06:41]: If we were at the frontier, I don't think we could have changed our mind. and I don't mean this like it's when the moment there's too much capital involved, too much expectations, you've built up things, right? We're a small team, just improving and improving. And so we knew that we could make that decision now, but it would be a lot harder to make as we got closer and closer to the frontier and caught up to others. And did a lot of soul-searching and a lot of conversations, and said, “No, this makes sense,” Even if there's big unanswered questions, like how the hell do you build a business model with foundation models about open source? Big open-ended question that we do not fully have the answer to yet, right? At what point do you no longer wanna release open source models because misuse of models has, real potential risks associated with it? how is the government gonna respond to open source? but I think it all just came down to one thing, and I'll stop the monologue, is the fact that I rather live in a world that has 100 foundation model companies than a world that has five, even if I was one of the five. And the smallest and most meaningful contribution we can make for 100 to exist is to open up our research and open up, like, our weights right now and figure out along the way how we can, like, do more.Neo-Labs, Model Choice, and the Token EconomySwyx [00:08:01]: Yeah. I think if anything, over the past three years, that has become a bit more true. you are one of a cohort of Neo labsEiso Kant [00:08:10]: YeahSwyx [00:08:10]: That people are now calling that. And, we're, we're doing this on the day that Thinky launched their, new model and you are outperforming them on their, on some benchmarks that they released, right? Like, they just don't have it yet. so it goes to show that I think, like, this is one of those things where, like, there is room for multiple players, and you are seeing a little bit more of the future. Maybe more like 20, not 100, but, like, you are one of the 20.Eiso Kant [00:08:36]: I really hope so, right? I think we I'm, I'm excited about their release, and I'm excited about everyone releasing because, like, ultimately, like, choice competition is both gonna drive progress in the right direction. But the fact that like, we create models and while we all, drink out of the same well of data effectively, we do introduce very different behaviors and biases in our models. Some are intended biases, some are completely unintended biases.Swyx [00:09:03]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:09:03]: And if we shape up in an ecosystem in the world where open models are gonna be a part of the token economy, like, I don't think there's any question about it anymore Then we want to be able to live in a world where companies, countries, people can choose and say, “Hey, I am most aligned and I trust most this provider for these things.”Swyx [00:09:25]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:09:26]: I think more than just one of the 20 Neo labs, up until recently, most of open source innovation was coming from the Chinese labs, right? So there's the DeepSeek of the West. Is it today? Okay, maybe it's thinking machines reflection, but there aren't many, right? So, one of the things you guys started in France, Europe, but very much now you're taking that American standpoint and more than just that, the point is the Chinese models that we see, they're not super open research. the work you put out is, I think, some of the best. So every few months you get not only frontier models, but also here's a breakdown blog, paper, technical report of here's everything for state of the art to build, frontier intelligence and you're filling that gap too, right? So not just only open weight, not just Western, but also pretty open research.Open Weights vs. Open ResearchEiso Kant [00:10:20]: No, I appreciate it. Look, I think it's, I think it's the most meaningful contribution, right? Weights are a binary. Let's call them what they are. Yes, we can modify them, we can change them, but, like, giving someone the weights does not allow them ultimately to recreate what you're doing, right? And so now there's challenges around releasing data sets, challenges around like releasing certain things, but being able to share your research, like, right, how do we do it? What are the lessons we learned that we spent, tens of thousands of experiments of compute on? I think very much so. One correction though, Vibhu, and I say this because it's been haunting us for quite a few years. We from day zero were an American company.Swyx [00:10:55]: Yeah. They movedPoolside's Global Team and American Company StorySwyx [00:10:56]: To France.Eiso Kant [00:10:56]: So the story once and for all is very. We start as an American company. We have always been an American company, and early on we made a very conscious decision. We said, “We're not gonna hire any researchers in the Bay Area. We're gonna look for talent everywhere else in the world.” and that is everything from Middle Americas, Seattle to, Serbia, and to Taiwan and Singapore and other places. And it was because we took a view that this was gonna become a talent war for this, and I think it has over the years now. Three years ago, that wasn't fully obvious yet. I think today it very much is. And we also realized that, like, some of the world's most capable people with, like, the most interesting, innovative ideas were not just gonna be here. And so it led us to create like a fully remote company. and we ended up opening an office in Paris and London and different places and we have a lot of the team in the US and a lot of team outside. But we always took this view of like, we're an American company, but if we want the best of the best to work with us, we need to take a global view. Now we do also have people here in Silicon Valley, like the company's grown and others, but I think one of the things that, it slowed us down at the beginning, but it has sped us up now, and it's why you're seeing like the progress, I think, on our models and the cadence at which we release, is because we didn't roll out of an existing lab. Right? we didn't, we didn't have a lot of the information that's freely flowing around here at the time. We just took this point of view as like, “Okay, well, let's just work the problem. Let's just go and, like, read the few papers that are out there, and let's just figure this stuff out.” And we made some hilarious mistakes in model training because of that over the yearsEiso Kant [00:12:35]: Like especially in the first 12 months. there's a few that I think still haunt me and scare me. We can talk about them later. but it created a, like, a resiliency and persistency in the team, right? with extremely few people have left us over the years, that, like, told us, “Okay, we can do this.” When we first wrote our first training code base completely from scratch, it wasn't a fork of any open source. It was just like, “Okay, let's build it from scratch.” I remember we had this one moment where we spent three weeks working out an optimizer bug. Like, it was like training just couldn't get stable. We, like, obsessed over it, and we thought, like, maybe we were wrong. Maybe we should have just forked this repo, or we should have. But then when we solved it, I still remember at the time we were like five people in the company. when we solved it, we were like, “Oh, we can do things,” like if we're just willing to work hard. and I think that culture with a very strong engineering bias has helped us, like, get to where we were. And so there's this notion of open source and talent and these things. I think we, We just took different decisions from a different starting point. and I think we are lucky. I do want to definitely call it lucky. And there was a lot of hard work at the team that now, like, that's starting to show up in results.Swyx [00:13:52]: Just ‘cause we probably won't revisit this again, but, and this is a fun recruiting challenge if someone knows the answer. What was the bug? And then we won't tell the solution, but we'An Optimizer Bug and the Value of Building From ScratchEiso Kant [00:14:01]: So the - This - You're gonna test my memory here,Swyx [00:14:04]: Oh, okayEiso Kant [00:14:04]: So but I thinkSwyx [00:14:05]: DirectlyEiso Kant [00:14:05]: I think I can recall. So if you, so if you look at, So if you take like Adam as an optimizer, you have epsilonSwyx [00:14:12]: YeahEiso Kant [00:14:13]: Which is, right, like in the denominatorSwyx [00:14:14]: Momentum and weights. YeahEiso Kant [00:14:15]: Is exactly, in the denominator. And at the time, if I recall, you looked at like the early Llama papers and things like that. People were juicing epsilon, like, quite a bit. Like, they were, like, adding, I don't know if it was E minus four or whatever, like a high value for epsilon.Eiso Kant [00:14:31]: And if you think about this during training, it's like a bit weird and counterintuitive that we're adding noise to our optimizer by just adding effectively, like, a random number in the denominator, right? Like behind the decimal point. And I don't recall the exact bug, but it had - What I remember is once we solved it, we no longer had to juice epsilon as much as, like, was happening in the Llama paper and other places. and it was like one of those fundamental moments where we had trusted this paper that was out there, and we're like, “Oh, no, it has to be this way. It has to have this high value of epsilon.” But it made no sense to us intuitively. Like, why do you have to have this so high? Like, if you're just trying to avoid division by zero, why can't the value be extremely small? and that was like one of those moments where you realize like, okay, finding things out from scratch yourself builds a better intuition. Because the one thing you learn very quickly with model building is that your intuitions that you start with are gonna get beaten up so hard.Eiso Kant [00:15:33]: Right? Like - It's such an experimental science, that the things that seem obvious, you very quickly get to learn, like, you were wrong, and hopefully you figure out why, and sometimes you don't even.Swyx [00:15:45]: Yeah. yeah, so, one of the reasons that you, when you released your new models, Vibhu got really excited. I mean, everyone got really excited. But Vibhu led our paper club on it, and you guys sawEiso Kant [00:15:58]: YeahSwyx [00:15:58]: Obviously. maybe talk through some lessons learned in that, whatever you can disclose. we can focus on the model factory stuff, whatever you think is a good starting point.Model Building as EngineeringEiso Kant [00:16:08]: So I would say that our view from very early on in the company was that model building is ultimately 90% engineering.Eiso Kant [00:16:18]: And I think we all know it in the industry because if you look at where's every researcher spending their time, they're spending their time writing code, right? Looking at data and writing code. And so we said, okay, The state at the moment, like three years ago, was bash scripts and Slurm and spaghetti code bases for training and, like, data pipelines that were patched together. And we looked at this and said, “Well, ultimately, model building is a process.” You're going from raw data, right? Like training raw material, the web, et cetera. you're doing a whole bunch of filtering, cleaning up, transformations, analyzing. These days, that's, far more complex than it was three years ago. then you're training a model, which is effectively a large distributed systems problem, right? Across hardware that has still-- It's become a lot more reliable. It was extremely flaky back then. and now with every new generation, we get our new sets of challenges. And then you go into the next stages, right? There was no training back then, but, like, you got, your post-training and then your reinforcement learning. And so we looked at this and we said, “Well, this looks like an industrialized process. This looks like an end process, that every single part of it has its machinery,” right? If it's your big data pipelines, if it's your crawling ingestion of the web, if it's your, large-scale distributed training, and then you've got your reliability. And we said, “Well, why don't we take some of the world's smartest distributed systems engineers that we knew and make them part of the process of research from day zero?” Not retrofitting it later on, but, like, really from the beginning. And that became our model factory. And so our model factory started with a handful of components. Today, it's thousands of components, and I try to equate it to, if you think about, like, someone who was at the very early days of Foxconn, if they had been there for the following, decade, they would be able to rebuild Foxconn because they saw every decision that led to building that system and all the complexity. If you and I walk into Foxconn today, no chance.The Model Factory and Experiment VelocityEiso Kant [00:18:18]: Right? Because we don't have the lineage and history of decisions that led to that. And so we built early on from the beginning- with a team that really understood that, well, the metric that we are optimizing for is the speed of an idea from a researcher to an experimental result that we can trust to then being part of the next model training.Eiso Kant [00:18:42]: And in the. And because it's such an experimental science, ultimately, in the beginning when it wasn't that complex, you could patch your way around it, right? But now, at any foundation model company, you are running. I mean, we're a small team, right? We're less than 70 researchers, another 35 engineers. and we are running, I haven't checked the latest count, but far more than 10,000, maybe 10 to 20,000 experiments a month that we cut. And so if you look at that scale of every model run that is, like it's ultimately it's, it's you need to be able to trust it as an infra problem. And so what we have now done over the years is gotten really good at that, and just by working it and improving it and obsessing over those end decisions. So now what that means is that you looked up Laguna XS 2 that we launched. It was five weeks from the beginning of training to launch. The model that we're gonna talk about today was eight weeks from start of training, to launch. We started the next model literally yesterday because we now finished the post-training required for the model we're launching, next week or by the time this comes out today. and we move that compute to the much larger Laguna M model that we're now training. And so the model should be an artifact of someone's process. It shouldn't be really a thing in itself. Like, and we treat this like the way you would look at like a SpaceX factory where, yes, the first rocket, really hard to build, but the much harder challenge was building the factory. And now they're rolling off, and no one is really thinking about the next launch anymore. So it's just another launch, it's another launch, another rocket comes off. And that's what we're trying to do with model building.Eiso Kant [00:20:22]: And what has been, which was not planned from day zero, it was in the back of our mind like this will happen one day, is that when you build a really good end model factory with really good APIs and really good engineering systems, Well, what is it perfect for? It's perfect for agents.Agents Inside the Model FactoryEiso Kant [00:20:40]: Because agents are now starting to take over more and more work in our model factory.Vibhu [00:20:43]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:20:44]: So I look at the screens when I walk, like when we're, we come together, in our monthly, we do monthly onsites, and I walk behind people's screens and I stop by and I talk to our researchers. And the default is all of these different agents running on their screen that are writing the code. They're launching the jobs. They're evaluating the results that are coming back from the model runs. They are, making the changes. And we're still in the driver's seat. We're still coming up with the ideas. We're still helping with the debugging. But more and more, and this is right now very profound on the data side of our pipelines in both pre and post and the synthetic data pipelines, it's starting to become more on the architecture side as well. You're starting to see these twinklings of what RSI is gonna look like.Eiso Kant [00:21:27]: And that's. So when we talk about, like to your question about our models, every talk about the model factory, And my coolest example of these things is always that when we kick off a new run, doesn't matter if it's a training like big run or if it's now a post, like one of 10 post-training versions we do for like release or many experiments, is that at any given moment, the changes that somebody made that they had experimental results from the day before make it into that run.Eiso Kant [00:21:57]: So there's not like a cutoff 90 days before. Like no, it's like literally from that moment because we can now trust the machine enough. And then you also have to invest in the reliability. So one of my favorite metrics about like Laguna S is that there was no call events, Right? Like completely zero. And we haven't had a meaningful call event, like something to wake up for, as far as I recall this entire year. now there is one asterisk to that. In usually the first six hours of launching a new model run, something breaks because you set a config wrong, you made a small mistake, et cetera. So that's usually there's a little bit of intervention, but that's always within like call periods, right? Not on call. And I think that's starting to now compound. So the model we're releasing now, I love it. It's amazing, but we're already onto the next one. and I think that's the way it should be.Laguna, Five-Week Builds, and Zero On-Call EventsVibhu [00:22:50]: Hey, I also just wanna point out, so for context, this was like a month ago. we found it in the tech report, so we just came in with, “Okay, new model's dropped. Haven't heard about it.” We wereEiso Kant [00:23:02]: Yeah, we're very used to doing this every few months.Vibhu [00:23:03]: We're, we're very much like, “ okay, look, it's like, on par with Kimi, DeepSeek, whatnot, the small ones, Gemma level. Oh, it's a very cool paper on what goes into building.” And then we hit this page, right? Like literally page two of tech report is, “This process allowed us to build the small model from scratch to delivery within five weeks applying the lessons”. And then I'm like, oh, this paper is not about here's a tech report of benchmarks and here's how many tokens it was trained on. Like for people that wanna dive more from what we're not gonna discuss on the podcast, it's all laid out here, right? FromEiso Kant [00:23:38]: YeahVibhu [00:23:39]: Custom software that agents can use to interface with training code, training data.Eiso Kant [00:23:45]: Yeah. Well, link the paper correctly, so yeah.Vibhu [00:23:47]: Yeah. All that stuff. read the paper here, but,Technical Report Principles and Streaming Training DataEiso Kant [00:23:50]: But I would like to. I love principles, and I think that is a good starting off point for maybe telling some stories. Maybe we can go one by one past the principles. I'll just call out that Dagster just got bought by a Prefect.Vibhu [00:24:01]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:24:01]: Isn't it fun? But yes, I'm very familiar with Dagster. just anything where like they trigger some story.Vibhu [00:24:07]: So, well, I would say, well, experiments code's obvious, but I think one of my favorite things is, I don't know where it is in here, but early on, and I still think this is the case a lot of foundation model companies, people prepare their training data sets, they get packaged up, then they get copied over to a training cluster distributed across all of the nodes, and then training starts.Vibhu [00:24:30]: And we looked at this like three years ago and we were like That makes no senseEiso Kant [00:24:36]: You lose so much time because the moment you have to rematerialize the data set, you have to make a change, you have to fix something, et cetera, you've got all this time of like repackaging it, right? Toca- tokenizing it, repacking it, moving it over to a cluster, then distributing it across the nodes. The bigger your clusters are, you start using fancy like torrent-like algorithms to like distribute your data. So why aren't we streaming data into training? Right? Something that's very common and like just basicVibhu [00:25:00]: Like just in timeEiso Kant [00:25:01]: Just in time, like good computer science like principle. And that was one of the first things that I think unlocked - the model factory. Because the moment you start thinking about, well, a training job, it doesn't matter if it's a big hero run or a small like, post-training experiment, consumes a certain number of tokens per second, right? And it's not a lot, right? From a like a data, moving data perspective. So we said, well, we have our training cluster, and then we've got like our AWS kinda setup where we can build these amazing big data pipelines. We can set things up. We use Spark underneath the hood, like all these things.Vibhu [00:25:36]: But when you say AWS, it's not actual AWS, it's your internal AWS.Eiso Kant [00:25:39]: It's our internal-- No, it's our internal like just running like our infrastructureVibhu [00:25:42]: Site web servicesEiso Kant [00:25:43]: Exactly. Our stuff running on like an AWS account or on like any hardware, right?Vibhu [00:25:47]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:25:48]: And so once we made that shift into I can stream data into training, all of a sudden you realize a lot of things unlock. Because now you don't have to wait for the whole data set to materialize.Immutable Data, Experiments as Code, and Scientific RigorEiso Kant [00:26:00]: You now all of a sudden when you're running data experiments about mixing data, it's a config. Because you've got these data sources that are coming in, and you just - we have this service called Blender that's in the report, where we then say, “Okay, for this run, I want 20% of this source, 10% of this source. I want this much, so many epochs of repetition. I want this to be, shuffled in a certain way,” and your training job can start while the rest of the data is even still materializing. also what it does is because all of this underneath-- So for us, we treated the data layer underneath as like an immutable data layer, and that was really important. Like experiments as code, immutable data layer means that you can always go back and understand literally down to the single token at which cursor it went in on which version of the code.Vibhu [00:26:47]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:26:48]: And it took us a I have to admit, like the first year of Poolside, we understood that engineering had to get great, But we didn't understand yet, that this is ultimately in support of like a good rigorous scientific progress. We were quite a - We were a very small number of people, so a lot of it was YOLO ideas and YOLO runs.Vibhu [00:27:08]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:27:09]: And we built great infra for the YOLO runs. But once we realized that we treated data as immutable and code as always versioned, and you could always track and trace every experiment end to end perfectly, you could repeat everything perfectly, right? You have perfect reproducibility. I can still reproduce runs from two years ago if I wanted to, right? It enables the scientific progress, like the scientific process, and I think that took us probably about a year and a half into the company to figure out. We also had some great hires, like our head of applied research, Nikolai, who joined us from Yandex, who'd been working on language models since like the early 2020s, I think brought that into the company of like, “Hey, we wanna have even more rigor.” And then once we kinda had the combination of like increasingly more capable platform that allowed people to do more, but had this immutability, we were able to start “Okay, every experiment is truly an ablation. We truly need to understand it.” And I think we became much more scientifically rigorous in the last couple of years, and the infra underneath enabled it. and then there's just fun stuff like, andVibhu [00:28:16]: Yeah, a lot of it's fun, like even just the, one, you share all the ablations, two, picking the data sets, right? There's like a random small paragraph in here where it's just like, “Oh yeah, training data, we have some, we have an auto mixer.” it trains eight small models, scales them up, picks the training data set. We don't even need to look at it. I'm like, “Wow, a lot of engineering rigor there.” And there's just, there's just a lot in here.Publishing Research and Giving BackEiso Kant [00:28:40]: Yeah, and it'- and look, and we wanna put out more. Like we, We treat writing papers as something that we haven't earned the right for yet for a long time. So you earn the right to spend time, publishing research once you're at the frontier, because until then, you're catching up, and every minute and hour in this industry matters. Like I obsess over it, not just the wall clock time from idea to result, but just general like time every day that we, waste is one that doesn't allow us to catch up. But in this case, we said, “Okay, we're gonna give ourselves.” I think we gave the team like three or four days while still doing their work, like give everything in there. And to your point earlier, if your stuff, it's easy to like put it out. And so there's so many more things that we wanna talk about over time, and we will definitely start doing. And as we earn more of the right, but also now have like added to our mission that we want more foundation model companies to exist, you'll see us like be way more proactive, and just trying to keep dropping some of those like things that we've learned along the way that can help others like speed up.Vibhu [00:29:40]: Which is the other cool side of this, right? It's, it's not like, back to your point, it's not just here's the benchmarks of our training. If you want to replicate, here's experiments of optimizers, data sets, post-training. you lay out a lot of it here alongside here's your system for how to do it? So it's, it's really like promotingEiso Kant [00:29:59]: No, thank youVibhu [00:29:59]: Other people can do the same.Eiso Kant [00:30:00]: And by the way, I also wanna make clear, right, we have been incredible-- Like we've taken a lot of advantage of the fact of all the open research that others have published, Right? And you mentioned, the Chinese labs, and we I think it's important that there's, from every country and every culture and background, including like Western companies like us, there's different models that come out that people can choose to trust. But I think we do have to give credit where credit's due, right? The incredible Chinese lab have done an amazing job at sharing their research, and we have definitely like been on the receiving end of taking advantage of that. So when you're on the receiving end of something coming to you, I think it's, you also have an obligation to give back.Swyx [00:30:39]: Do you have a favorite or underrated Chinese lab that you wanna shout out? Everyone shout outs DeepSeek.Chinese Labs, Zhipu, and PersistenceEiso Kant [00:30:44]: That's a good question.Swyx [00:30:45]: Moaan obviously for Therapsi. Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:30:48]: Yeah, look, I think, I think obviously everyone's been talking about Zhipu lately, with 5.2. I think what most people don't realize is when they started.Swyx [00:30:59]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:30:59]: Right? They started years before ChatGPT.Swyx [00:31:02]: They just rebranded. YeahEiso Kant [00:31:03]: And so, I've like, I remember how hard it was to work on these things Before the rest of the world got excited about it. And so I have an immense amount of respect for people, who were working on improving models when it wasn't the sexy thing to do, when believing in LLMs, was gonna get you ridiculed. I remember like back in 2016 when we were doing what we'd call, machine learning on code with some of these models. we would-- people would just laugh at us, like they'd be like, “This makes no sense. Like why are you wasting all these, like, millions of dollars on trying to figure this out?” And so I would say they're probably the one that, I think deserves a shout-out, not just because their latest model is very good, but because they fought to get here. And I think, I think every foundation model company it takes time to get here, right? It took us three years to get to the model that we're, that we're now gonna be releasing. and now the time in between the models is coming, is counted in weeks. It's no longer counted in months or years. But this stuff's hard. and if we can make it a little bit easier for the next person, like we should all do so. Because if we don't do so, we're, we've got a small window before models are really impacting recursive self-improvement to a level where catching up otherwise might become unfeasible. And we should try to, in that window, encourage as many labs or however we wanna call them, like to start. And so one of my currentEiso Kant [00:32:36]: Mission, but qualm is like I wanna encourage whoever is a researcher right now who thinks they can tackle this to go and leave and become my competitor.Eiso Kant [00:32:45]: Like start another foundation model company because I think we need it. I think otherwise we're not gonna be in the world where, I don't want to just be the fifth or the sixth company that wins. I wanna look at a world where there's lots of choice.Starting a Foundation Model CompanyVibhu [00:32:57]: What else do people not see in starting a foundation model? it's, there's a lot of compute, there's a lot of capital required, a lot of compute. You lay out model factory and how to do the training, but there's a lot there, right? That's,Eiso Kant [00:33:10]: Well, look, it's, I in turn-- this is an oversimplification, and I always asterisk it with that because it can land a little bit the wrong way in people's minds. But I think you can sum down, And I saw it, 95% of model building to just doing, you're just doing two things. You're improving data or you're improving compute efficiency. And I know that feels like an oversimplification for the incredible, like, Gifted and skilled work people do. But if you really look at it, like what are we doing? We are looking at data, we're generating new data, we're improving data. and the only way to do that is to look at the data, right? That's a big part of foundation model building. And on the other hand, we come up with these incredible breakthroughs in inference, in architecture, and new attention mechanisms. But what are they really doing? They're bringing compute efficiency. Now, we have definitely had some breakthroughs over the years that allow for more model capabilities. But at the limit, if you could train a large enough model, right, like, and you had infinite compute, we probably-- if you had infinite compute, you'd be at AGI probably already tomorrow.Eiso Kant [00:34:12]: Right? Like it's not. And so, and let me say that infinite compute with infinite ability of much faster networking because networking ends up being more of the bottleneck than compute. But, so I do think that's, those are the main things. And to just realize that this is engineering. I think it's become more obvious, but I think for quite a few years, people have held foundation model companies and researchers and others on this pedestal of like you're doing incredible magic or rocket science, or only like, Nobel laureate physicists can do this. And don't get me wrong, there are some really hard problems that need to be solved, but a lot of the work that all of us are doing on a day Is not sitting down trying to solve a math theorem. A lot of the work that we're doing is just really doing the basics right, writing good code, looking at data, improving it, running experiments, looking at plots, trying to see like, hey, trying to shape our intuitions. And a lot more people could be highly capable researchers. and I think that's, it feels far for people to do so. But I've seen in our own company, we've seen engineers become researchers because the model factory allowed them to be, have a much lower hurdle of running experiments and trying things. And one of the guys on our team who started as an engineer building our agents is a legit reinforcement learning researcher now, making real progress. and that happened in the span of like six months. that would've not been what I think most people assumed was possible, a couple of years ago.Swyx [00:35:46]: Yeah. I think one of the interesting moments is when you can self-host, like, if in a programming language, like if you can compile the language in the language, the equivalent is can you use your own tools, right? You have the pool CLI, you have your own models. presumably you're not only using your own models. There's no way. But like, what's that percentage over time?Laguna S, Persistence, and Behavioral GainsEiso Kant [00:36:10]: This is the first model that we're releasing that is starting to meaningfully contribute to our own work. It's not a it's not state-art model yet. Fable and other, they're, they're very capable models, but Laguna S Is really interesting. I'm gonna pull up the quote. Peng Ming, one of our heads of applied research, said something, last week as the model came out about 10 days ago, much better than we had hoped for or expected. And he said, I have the feeling that a lot of the gains in Laguna S come not from more intelligence, but more from different behavior, more verification, less taking things for granted, not declaring victory early, and being way more persistent. And to be honest, those are more predictive than raw intelligence for success in human also to some degree. And this was, he wrote me this on 5th of July on a Sunday, and it's been burned in my brain ever since because the Laguna S model, as you'll see it and why it does so well on benchmarks and why it does so well in using it on a day basis, is that it's just incredibly persistent. It reasons a lot. I do call that out. We have work to do on making it more efficient. We have to work to do on offering different reasoning modes. But this is the model that has been able to do things that I never thought it could do. A hundred eighteen billion 8B active model, which is not that large. It fits on a DGX Spark and still runs at, thirty, forty tokens a second on a Spark, is able to solve Erdős 397 independently. It's able to do complex programming tasks. It's able to. I asked it this morning to make me a Fi scanner without using any external libraries on my Mac, and it's, like, figuring out, like, the core WLAN API by really persistently trying to understand it without access to the internet. And more, I love vibe checking. I've probably spent eight to ten hours a day with this model for the last ten days.Eiso Kant [00:38:05]: I'm not exaggerating. I was on my eleven-hour flight yesterday. I spent ten hours reading trajectories and traces and, like, of the model.Eiso Kant [00:38:12]: And what I take away from it is exactly what Peng Ming said. We are gonna be able to squeeze so much more out of smaller models than I think we had imagined in the industry because, yes, there's intelligence and larger models are more intelligent. Like, no doubt about it. We should continue to scale up. but the behaviors of being really persistent, of being able to backtrack when you're wrong, of, like, understanding how to interact with your environment show us that we can get a lot more out of it. And this, for me, has created a bit of a Question in my mind the last couple of days. If you think about where we're using models today, right? We are using models, say, for knowledge work. Represents twenty-five percent of the global economy, twenty-five trillion dollars of work.Eiso Kant [00:39:00]: As we scale up models and they become more intelligent, we are excited about using them more and more for pushing the frontier of science.Small Models, Knowledge Work, and CommoditizationEiso Kant [00:39:08]: And if you look at the frontier of science, like true breakthroughs in science, they have been linked, they are linked to more intelligence in many places. Einstein figuring out general relativity is able to bring ideas together that other people would have not brought together. And I think one of the many dimensions of intelligence is the ability to do that, and it's something we clearly see that as models get larger and more capable, they're able to pull more ideas and threads together that a smaller model wouldn't be able to.Eiso Kant [00:39:36]: And we're starting to see examples of that in medicine and, like, in bio and other things. But if you think about the majority of knowledge work that we do, and it includes building software. I'm a software developer at heart first and foremost probably, although I probably can't say it that much anymore as I don't write production code in years, is that what makes us good is our persistence. It's our ability to encounter a problem and backtrack and say, “I need to go figure out this bug. I need to go research this. I need to go look at the documentation. I need to, like, try different, five different ways to see, like, if I can solve it.” But it is not necessarily bringing three ideas together from radically different fields. And so if we are now seeing, and I think Laguna S is an example, that we are able to make a relatively small model much more capable than I had definitely predicted or any previous, like, benchmarks had shown for any model remotely this size or even larger, At least on coding tasks, that it's because of the behaviors. And so now the question I have, and I don't have an answer, it is I know at the limit, so infinite model size, right, extremely large model, and the cost of that model is gonna be very expensive to run. We know this, right? So larger model ROI.Eiso Kant [00:40:52]: So I know that at the very limit, I'm not gonna use the world's largest model one day, quadrillion parameter, whatever crazy, like, scale we scale up, to do a basic coding task. Already today, I'm starting to size down for certain tasks.Eiso Kant [00:41:07]: So it means that there is an optimal. It means there's some curve that goes as we go up to model size for knowledge work, at some point we're at the peak, and after that, the return on investment of using a bigger model, just doesn't make sense.Eiso Kant [00:41:22]: Now, I think the question is, before I would have thought that peak was extremely very far away.Eiso Kant [00:41:30]: This model for me is the first sign that Maybe that peak is At a trillion, five trillion, ten trillion. Maybe we can just squeeze way more out of these models. I'm no longer thinking that we need two or three orders of magnitude on the largest models to be able to, solve knowledge work, the accounting, the legal, the code that we write. And so if that holds true, It is an argument for the commoditization of models. It's an argument that open source can win and, like, succeed in this world. And now it's of course a self-serving argument and it's a hopeful argument, but theoretically at the limit it works. We just have to go discover in the next couple of years of how much more we can squeeze out. Now, I do want to put a big asterisk. This does not mean I'm against scaling models. I think we ultimately only succeed if we scale our models as large as our competition. I do not like. I think we should not put our head in the sand and say we're gonna be king of open source small models. I think that's, It's a out. It's trying to be king of your own kingdom, but not realizing what the rest of the world's doing. All of us rather use a smarter, faster, more model. It's a sign of hope. And so I don't wanna overly state this is a good model. We have a long way to go to get to the state-art. But what hopefully people take away when they use this model is that the behaviors inside of it are what push it to be far more capable, less than necessarily the number of parameters.Pre-Training, Mid-Training, and RL Moving EarlierVibhu [00:43:03]: Is that mostly post-training? LikeEiso Kant [00:43:05]: YesVibhu [00:43:05]: Right.Eiso Kant [00:43:06]: It's entirely post-training.Vibhu [00:43:08]: Are we done improving anything on training? Is, like, training done?Eiso Kant [00:43:12]: No.Vibhu [00:43:12]: Okay.Eiso Kant [00:43:13]: SoVibhu [00:43:13]: I just wanted to cover training, and then we go post-trainingEiso Kant [00:43:15]: Training is not done. I mean, look, there's a part of training of just dealing with skill, right? Every new order of magnitude of model skill, you are going to get new things you gotta solve for. That'- but those are ultimately, engineering challenges.Eiso Kant [00:43:31]: I have a, I would say, a not commonly held opinion that reinforcement learning Will move earlier and earlier into training.Vibhu [00:43:42]: Yeah, training.Eiso Kant [00:43:44]: Not even training. Like training today, right, is, like if you look at - So we've been working on this for years already. and I think the best-- I think the first time we saw it out in public was the DeepSeek Zero paper. this is a year and a half ago, I think, if I recall correctly. where, you can Very early on in a model as it starts capable of being able to use language, et cetera, induce reasoning. and so the question that I have is like, we have this- we have the dataset that's the web. and the web, I think we could arguably say probably has The totality of humanity's knowledge somewhere encoded in different places. It's a huge variance degree of quality, from garbage data, and like once you look at training data, you really get humbled of like what the web is, to like, the most greatest scientific papers and best blog posts and like, best transcripts and whatnot.Eiso Kant [00:44:39]: And so now What we are trying to figure out, and have been doing a lot of work on, and it's a place where maybe not as open as we're on other things, but we will become more over time. we've been spending a couple of years really doing research on how can we turn the web into not just next token prediction, but into a way to teach the model to think earlier in its training. and I think there's a huge amount of gold to be found there. I think we are right now in, we've got some drugs in the industry. One of the drugs is distillation. Another drug is, more environments. Like, and they're great, and they make us feel good, and they make the models better, and like we're all addicted to them, and we'll use them, right? in various different ways. and but ultimately, I think we are still barely squeezing out of the web what we should be getting out of the web.Eiso Kant [00:45:33]: I think just next token prediction during training is not enough.Eiso Kant [00:45:36]: AndVibhu [00:45:38]: YeahEiso Kant [00:45:38]: I think we'll see some very interesting things still happen. and that RL in post-training to induce behaviors, to improve things, like I think - the whole world knows how to do this now. I think we're, we're scaling it up. Everyone is. But I wonder if we need to go as far as we're going today with environments. I'm not sure yetVibhu [00:46:01]: You mean we're going too far?Eiso Kant [00:46:02]: I'm, I'm not sure if the path to AGI is justVibhu [00:46:06]: Is more environmentEiso Kant [00:46:07]: More environments.Vibhu [00:46:08]: It seems like a never-ending, “Okay, I want instruction manual for this table, right? Am I gonna environment out building furniture? Or are we just gonna tail end like we need some general solution?”Eiso Kant [00:46:19]: I think there is, I think there's an ability to generalize more from the web. but I also am very encouraged, like when I look at Laguna S and, which is post-training is, well, is the big impact there. and I see like, oh, wait a second, just by making some of these behaviors much better, we're able to get so much more out of it. It just changes a little bit the way you think about intelligence.Vibhu [00:46:40]: Yeah. The analogy people draw often is the RL phase is where you don't learn as much new knowledge. You shiftEiso Kant [00:46:46]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:46:46]: Yeah. So, you shift distribution, and you can have it reason towards what you want. on your point about training, a lot of training is still just continue training in a domain, say medicine, then you do RL. So still justEiso Kant [00:47:00]: It's just better data, right? Like, I mean, training, ooh, I like how we invented this word. Like it's effectively just like,Vibhu [00:47:06]: Second phaseEiso Kant [00:47:07]: It's the second phase of training With like a really dumb way to do a curriculum. But like ultimately, what you'd want is a curriculum from token zero to token 30 whatever or 40 trillion tokens that really truly is the optimal curriculum for the model to learn. But training is essentially a stage curriculum on the web because we do not have to compute, And, effectively to try to ablate the perfect curriculum, right? And so I'm pretty sure that you'll start to see people talking soon about some other term, and there's two or - ‘cause now we do this, right? We talk stage two and stage three and stage four training and like. But ultimately, all we're doing is we're trying to assign a curriculum to the web data that we have to allow the model to learn better. I think at some point, as things get compute, as models get cheaper to run, as the next generations of compute, this will become more of a continuous spectrum. I also think the reason, by the way, you have training and like stage two and stage three is organizational, Right? It'- this is, I think, a thing where-- that we really try to avoid with the model factory is like Training exists because there's a training team now, right? There's people, or like people in training decide to focus on like a training effort. but what you really want is engineering and scale of experiments that allows for a much more continuous spectrum that you don't, you have infinite stages. Now, we're not there. Compute's not there. Organization design is not there for it yet. but I think we'll get there. we'll look back on a couple of years and be like, “Oh my God, it was so cute that we did our training data like this in such a like naïve way. Like we barely ordered it. We didn't really do a good job at likeCurriculum, Auto Research, and New ObjectivesVibhu [00:48:48]: The building that curriculum will get you that in the industry.Eiso Kant [00:48:51]: And I'll confirm that, when I talk to some researchers that this is a lot of the focus now is like how does training change and what is the next objective other than, next token prediction. I assume you don't have the answers, but you have some ideas.Vibhu [00:49:02]: We have some ideas. We're not ready to talk about it yet.Eiso Kant [00:49:05]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:05]: We've been working on them for years, and I think that's the one thing that's also like you asked earlier about, like what's not obvious about building a foundation model company is that you are constantly balancing the table stakes work, the recipe worksEiso Kant [00:49:19]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:19]: Versus like your, my crazyEiso Kant [00:49:22]: Pure researchVibhu [00:49:22]: Breakthrough.Eiso Kant [00:49:22]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:22]: Pure research and finding that balance and adjusting the percentage to it based on where you are in the race is really important.Eiso Kant [00:49:31]: I mean, so like, this is a nice way. I was gonna bring up auto research at some pointVibhu [00:49:35]: YesEiso Kant [00:49:35]: As another Andrej invention, or coinage, which is like, I honestly, like how many objective functions can there be, right? Like just try 1,000 of them, set it running, whatever.Vibhu [00:49:47]: Man, it's alsoEiso Kant [00:49:48]: Like what you're looking for. You're looking for loss curves like that, likeVibhu [00:49:51]: It's also a thing people take bets on, right? When you say more Neo labs, you're doing a version of we'll do foundation models, scale them up, next token predictors. A lot of other Neo labs that we see want to take a completely different approach, right? At some level, you're right. It's all, compute efficiency, and that's the net objective. But some are okay, different architecture, like vastly different amounts of compute spend. So some are different. They're not justEiso Kant [00:50:19]: YeahVibhu [00:50:19]: They're like, 99% not balancing, here's the vanilla and scale up. They're 99% on, here's novel research that'll change everything.Eiso Kant [00:50:27]: And I think, Luke, I think you. It depends when you started as well, right?Pure Research vs. Table StakesVibhu [00:50:30]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:50:30]: When we started, like the novel thing we did was reinforcement learning on code. No long- that's no longer novel by far, but we were like, - that's where we obsessed over when no one believed in RL. So you have to when you start the company, you have to have your own idea. You have to have something that's different that allows you to speed up, right? For us, it was RL to LLMs that later became common, like, Knowledge. But in the beginning, it wasn'tVibhu [00:50:53]: It's cool. this was like your original 2023 blogEiso Kant [00:50:57]: YeahVibhu [00:50:57]: Of purpose.Eiso Kant [00:50:58]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:50:59]: And like you do lay it all out here.Eiso Kant [00:51:01]: We laidVibhu [00:51:01]: The blog is pretty underrated, right? The whole RL on code was very early on.Eiso Kant [00:51:06]: Very early. And even we had to argue with people, like we say here things like to push beyond current capability, to train your own foundation model. We had to argue with people that it mattered that you had your own like, base model. you can fine-tune your way to success, right? major capabilities emerge from training a base model made accurate and useful during fine-tuning.Vibhu [00:51:23]: Which like, for perspective at the time, we knew closed models, OpenAI, Anthropic were huge. The open models we had were like Mistral 7B, a 30B, a 70B.Eiso Kant [00:51:35]: When weVibhu [00:51:35]: YeahEiso Kant [00:51:36]: The date on this thing is wrong. When we published this, it was April 2023. I think this was justVibhu [00:51:42]: YeahEiso Kant [00:51:42]: Happened on a migration, probably found it on archive.org.Vibhu [00:51:45]: Mistral.Eiso Kant [00:51:46]: Mistral had started, we started on the same month, right?Vibhu [00:51:49]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:51:49]: So this wasn't even, there was only, I think, Llama out at the timeVibhu [00:51:52]: SnellEiso Kant [00:51:52]: And that's it, right? And so, but I agree. I think we wan

This week, Jason Howell and Jeff Jarvis unpack a wild security disclosure from OpenAI and Hugging Face, where GPT-5.6 Sol found a zero-day vulnerability, broke out of its sandbox, and hacked Hugging Face's servers to steal the answer key to its own evaluation. They also dig into Moonshot's Kimi K3, the free Chinese model that got so popular it maxed out its own GPU capacity and sent Washington into a policy spiral over whether to panic or compete.Also in this episode: Google's new Gemini Flash models and the still-missing Gemini 3.5 Pro, publishers like USA Today and People Inc. weighing whether to block Google search entirely, Netflix revealing 300 titles used generative AI this year, AI companies buying and destroying millions of old books for training data, Samsung's AI glasses, the Suno hack, 1Password letting Claude log in for you, Thinking Machines' Inkling model, and NotebookLM becoming Gemini Notebook. New episodes every Wednesday at aiinside.show. Note: Time codes subject to change depending on dynamic ad insertion by the distributor. CHAPTERS: 0:00 - Start 0:03:36 - OpenAI says Hugging Face breach caused by one of its models 0:13:42 - Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence 0:16:34 - Moonshot's Kimi AI Model Sets Off Anxiety in the US - Bloomberg 0:20:41 - Top Pentagon official blasts OpenAI's Dean Ball 0:29:36 - US, China to hold AI talks in September, sources say 0:35:15 - Google Ships New Gemini Flash Models, But Pro Is Still Missing 0:35:31 - Google Gemini Launch Delayed as Tech Falls Short of Internal Goals 0:54:03 - Netflix says around 300 titles used generative AI 0:54:27 - Netflix Co-CEO Explains How Gen-AI Was Used in 300 Different Titles: ‘We Believe It Is Going to Enhance Their Abilities' 0:56:45 - AI Companies Are Buying Tons of Old Books Because They're Free of AI Slop 1:01:44 - A closer look at the upcoming Samsung AI glasses 1:03:53 - Hack Reveals Suno AI Music Generator Scraped YouTube, Deezer, and Genius 1:06:06 - 1Password now lets Claude sign in to websites without seeing your passwords 1:07:25 - Thinking Machines: Inkling: Our open-weights model 1:08:48 - Google is renaming NotebookLM to Gemini Notebook Hosts: Jason Howell and Jeff Jarvis Download and subscribe to AI Inside in audio and video: https://aiinside.show/  Support the podcast on Patreon for special perks: https://www.patreon.com/aiinsideshow. You'll get ad-free episodes, members-only Discord, T-shirts and stickers you love, and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, we explore major developments in the AI landscape, including Thinking Machines' launch of the open weight model Inkling and OpenAI's creation of GPT-RED, an AI hacker designed to enhance security. Additionally, we discuss AWS's $1 billion investment in engineering teams for custom AI solutions, Apple's partnership with Alibaba for AI in China, and Meta's strategy to monetize its AI computing capacity.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter

In this episode, we discuss the key trends in AI, including AWS's recent $1 billion investment. We also highlight the innovative AI model from Thinking Machines.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Chinesische Open-Source-Modelle schließen zu westlichen Modellen auf. Bei OpenAI wird das erste eigene Gerät konkret, während ein Analyst vorrechnet, dass das Werbegeschäft die eigene Prognose um 90% verfehlt. Codex und ChatGPT Work kommen auf 8 Mio. aktive Nutzer, gleichzeitig räumt OpenAI ein, dass Codex in seltenen Fällen das Home-Verzeichnis löscht. Google verschiebt den Gemini-Launch, weil die Technik interne Ziele verfehlt. Anthropic und Blackstone wetten, dass das nächste Billionen-Geschäft die Implementation ist, nicht die Modelle selbst. Bei Musk gibt es eine Identitätskrise rund um SpaceXAI, Grok Build wird nach dem Datenskandal open source, und für den Compute-Hunger wird eine Gasturbinen-Firma gekauft. In Europa lockert die EU unter US-Druck die Regeln für Meta-Brillen und zwingt Google gleichzeitig zur KI-Interoperabilität. Dazu die große Konsolidierung: Uber übernimmt Delivery Hero und Salesforce schluckt Contentful. Unterstütze unseren Podcast und entdecke die Angebote unserer Werbepartner auf ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠doppelgaenger.io/werbung⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Vielen Dank!  Philipp Glöckler und Philipp Klöckner sprechen heute über: (00:00:00) OpenAI Speaker (00:03:17) Codex Micro (00:05:29) OpenAI Werbe-Flop 6 Codex 8 Mio. Nutzer (00:11:28) NY Datacenter-Moratorium (00:14:18) Stripe PayPal (00:28:58) Thinking Machines (00:31:49) Soofi-S (00:35:26) Open-Source-AI-Report (00:37:24) Kimi 3 überholt Fable 5 (00:39:16) DeepSeek $74 Mrd. (00:40:10) Gemini verschoben (00:41:18) Ramp KI-Kosten (00:45:53) Earnings: ASML, TSMC, Netflix (00:48:05) Anthropic x Blackstone (00:50:18) Spahn (00:54:14) Truth API (00:59:48) Trump-Insiderwetten (01:01:27) EU lockert Meta-Brillen (01:02:45) Grok lädt Nutzerdaten hoch (01:05:07) SpaceXAI Chaos (01:05:40) Musk kauft APR Energy (01:06:55) xAI-Kraftwerk Umwelt (01:07:20) China vs. Chatbot-Liebe (01:08:37) Globales KI-Gremium (01:09:33) KI-Slop auf Amazon (01:11:26) Eli Lilly kauft Atai (01:12:32) Uber Delivery Hero, Salesforce Contentful (01:13:24) Schwarz Digits Shownotes OpenAI-Speaker ohne Bildschirm - bloomberg.com Codex Micro Keypad - worklouder.cc OpenAI-Werbung verfehlt Ziel um 90% - adweek.com Codex: 8 Mio. Nutzer - xcancel.com Codex löscht Home-Verzeichnis - xcancel.com NY: Moratorium für KI-Rechenzentren - theverge.com Stripe & Advent bieten für PayPal - linkedin.com PayPal-Board lehnt Angebot ab - reuters.com Thinking Machines launcht Inkling - wired.com Soofi-S: deutsches 30B-Modell - the-decoder.com State of Open-Source-AI (Mozilla) - stateofopensource.ai Kimi 3 schließt zu Opus 4.8 auf - techcrunch.com Kimi K3: Fable/Sol-Niveau - xcancel.com Google verschiebt Gemini - bloomberg.com Ramp: KI-Kosten-Dashboard - ramp.com ASML hebt Prognose an - cnbc.com TSMC: +80% Q2-Gewinn - cnbc.com Netflix Q2-Zahlen - cnbc.com Anthropic & Blackstone: Implementation statt Modelle - techcrunch.com Kimi-K3 überholt Fable 5 (Arena) - xcancel.com DeepSeek: $74 Mrd. vor IPO - reuters.com DeepSeek plant Börsengang - ft.com Truth API: Trump-Posts für Wall Street - cnbc.com Insiderwetten auf Trump-Reden - spiegel.de EU lockert Regeln für Meta-Brillen - politico.eu Grok Build lädt Daten hoch, wird Open Source - simonwillison.net Musk zur SpaceXAI-Datenspeicherung - xcancel.com SpaceXAI in der Identitätskrise - bloomberg.com Musk kauft Gasturbinen-Firma APR Energy - electrek.co xAI-Kraftwerk belastet Black Communities - reuters.com China verbietet Chatbot-Liebe - wsj.com 29 Länder gründen KI-Gremium - reuters.com KI-Slop-Biografien auf Amazon - nytimes.com Jens Spahn ist Vater geworden - spiegel.de Eli Lilly kauft AtaiBeckley ($2,8 Mrd.) - pharmaceutical-technology.com Uber vor Delivery-Hero-Deal (FT) - ft.com Uber kauft Delivery Hero ($14,8 Mrd.) - bloomberg.com Pausder plant ARK Labs (Palantir-Vorbild) - manager-magazin.de Salesforce kauft Contentful (1,3 Mrd.) - manager-magazin.de Schwarz-Gruppe gibt XM Cyber ab - manager-magazin.de EU zwingt Google zu KI-Interoperabilität - theverge.com ZDF untersagt Levit & Danger Dan - spiegel.de Doppelgänger Orakel - doppelgaenger-orakel.com

In this episode, we highlight how Thinking Machines is advancing AI through their latest model release. We also discuss the implications of AWS's $1 billion investment.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, we unveil the groundbreaking AI model recently launched by Thinking Machines. We also look at AWS's ambitious $1 billion investment in the AI landscape.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter

In this episode, we examine the major developments in AI, including the new model from Thinking Machines. We also discuss AWS's bold $1 billion investment in AI innovation.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, we talk about the recent initiatives from Thinking Machines in launching a new AI model. Plus, we assess AWS's investment of $1 billion in the AI landscape.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, we discuss AWS's game-changing decision to invest $1 billion in AI technology. We also delve into Thinking Machines' newly launched AI model.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter

In this episode, we analyze AWS's bold move to invest $1 billion in AI technologies. We also highlight the innovative AI model just launched by Thinking Machines.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey yall, Alex here, Huge thanks to Wolfram for running point on the live show this week. Didn't have tons of time to edit this one, so please skip the first 10 minutes, it's a loop of our new “wait for the live show to start” vid, that I build with HyperFrames and can't wait to tell you about, next week! Today it seems that OpenSource is biting back, with Kimi K3 getting released just a short while after Thinking Machines (Thinky) has released Inkling, their near 1T model. I'm attaching the TL;DR and timestamps for the full show (my AI agents, yes even Fable and Sol are not a match yet at editing down hehe) and I'll spare you the long Fable recap (please do let me know in the comments if you were expecting it) 0:00 – Intro, Alex on vacation, TLDR overview11:35 – TLDR: Thinking Machines, open source, OpenAI news12:34 – Banter: impressions of Sol/Codex, over-verification behavior37:22 – TLDR restart & detailed breakdown48:40 – Open Source AI section begins (Bonsai/Prism ML, Kimi K3)58:42 – Inkling (Thinking Machines) deep dive & 3D model visualization1:10:33 – Kimi K3 discussion & demo comparisons1:27:02 – Frontier Labs: AGI governance framework discussion (Demis Hassabis essay)1:47:04 – Grok Build CLI data leak & OpenAI file deletion incident2:02:15 – This Week's Buzz: Wolfbench results on GPT 5.6 Sol/Terra/Luna2:09:52 – Closing remarks & sign-offThe one-minute version: Mira Murati's Thinking Machines released Inkling, a 975B parameter open-weights MoE under Apache 2.0, the top US open-weights model right now. Moonshot's Kimi K3 went from rumor to released API during the show, confirmed at 2.8 trillion parameters with open weights promised within days, and it's already topping early arena boards. PrismML's Bonsai 27B squeezes a full 27B model into 3.9 gigabytes so it runs on a phone. Codex and ChatGPT Work blew past 9 million users, OpenAI confirmed and explained the Sol file-deletion bug (back up your machines, folks), and xAI's Grok Build CLI got caught uploading entire private repos before open-sourcing the whole thing in response. Plus Wolfram's fresh Wolfbench numbers on the GPT-5.6 family in This Week's Buzz

In this episode, we cover the exciting launch of a new AI model by Thinking Machines. We also look at how AWS's $1 billion investment will shape the future of AI.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter

In this episode, we discuss how Thinking Machines is enhancing AI technology with a new model. We will also explore AWS's hefty $1 billion investment.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, we discuss the exciting launch of a new AI model from Thinking Machines. We'll also explore the context of AWS's $1 billion investment in the field.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Inkling01:01 OpenAI's GPT-RED01:59 AI Box's MCP Server05:00 AWS's Custom AI Engineers07:29 Apple's AI Launch in China10:01 Meta's AI Compute Strategy Show LinksGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiHow I Grow and Scale My Business with AI: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the AI Chat Daily Newsletter: https://www.aichatdaily.com/newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Uber agreed to acquire Delivery Hero for ~$14.8B, expanding into 99 markets. Thinking Machines released its first open-weight model, Inkling, SpaceXAI open-sourced Grok Build after a data-upload backlash, and sources detailed xAI's chaotic race to catch Claude under new leadership. Uber agrees to acquire Delivery Hero in a deal that values the German food delivery company at ~$14.8B, offering €41.50 per share and buying Prosus' 16.8% stake (Bloomberg) Thinking Machines Lab debuts Inkling, an open-weight MoE model with 975B total and 41B active parameters, trained to be broad rather than optimized for one area (Thinking Machines Lab) Thinking Machines Lab debuts Inkling, an open-weight MoE model with 975B total and 41B active parameters, trained to be broad rather than optimized for one area (WSJ) SpaceXAI open-sources Grok Build under an Apache 2.0 license, after the tool uploaded user repositories to SpaceXAI's Google Cloud bucket, causing a backlash (Simon Willison) SpaceXAI open-sources Grok Build under an Apache 2.0 license, after the tool uploaded user repositories to SpaceXAI's Google Cloud bucket, causing a backlash (The Decoder) Sources detail how xAI has been slowed down by internal chaos as Musk pushed for Grok to match Claude, amid signs it is turning a corner under Michael Nicolls (Bloomberg) Sources: Apple is preparing new iPads, including an iPad mini with an OLED screen by October and refreshed entry-level iPads and iPad Airs for 2027 (Bloomberg) Subscribe to the ad-free feed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You've probably never heard of Inkling. It's the newest (and first) model from Thinking Machines Labs, and it could very well be a small snowball that picks up major momentum in today's enterprise AI landscape. If you haven't heard of Thinking Machines, they're led by Mira Murati, the former CTO at OpenAI. The big bet with Inkling? The future of AI could be using smaller models fine-tuned and optimized for smaller tasks. Will it work? Tune in live as we dive in. The Most Important AI Model You'll Probably Never Use That Just Dropped -- An Everyday AI Chat With Jordan WilsonNewsletter: Sign up for our free daily newsletterMore on this Episode: Episode PageToday's Episode on LinkedIn: Thoughts on this? Join the convo on LinkedIn and connect with other AI leaders.Upcoming Episodes: Check out the upcoming Everyday AI Livestream lineupWebsite: YourEverydayAI.comEmail The Show: info@youreverydayai.comConnect with Jordan on LinkedInTopics Covered in This Episode:Inkling AI Model Launch OverviewThinking Machines Lab Leadership HighlightInkling's Multimodal and Agentic CapabilitiesOpen Source vs. Proprietary AI ModelsEnterprise Procurement with American AI ModelsAI Fine Tuning as a Service (Tinker)Benchmark Scores: Inkling vs. Frontier ModelsCustomization and Model Shopping for EnterprisesAI Token Costs Driving Model EfficiencyBridgewater Case Study: AI Model CustomizationFrontier Models Enabling Efficient Fine-TuningFuture Trends: Specialized Small Language ModelsTimestamps:00:00 Inkling: A new AI model release05:43 Inkling AI model details09:08 China's dominance in open source AI11:48 Launch and model updates discussed15:21 Concerns over using Chinese open-source models19:06 Training smaller AI models20:22 Using GPT for AI Model Training23:54 Predicting Rise of Small Language Models28:38 Choosing the right AI modelKeywords: Inkling, Thinking Machines Lab, Meera Muradi, former OpenAI CTO, open source AI model, American AI model, fine tuning as a service, enterprise AI, multimodal AI, agentic models, customizable AI, Tinker, enterprise distribution, model procurement, Chinese open source models, strategic reset, model overhang, capabilities gap, AI model shopping, model routing, cost-conscious enterprises, artificial intelligence index, 975 billion parameter model, text-image-audio AI, open weights, proprietary AI models, customization accessibility, small language models, AI workflows, context window, Bridgewater use case, model distillation, GPU infrastructure, API costs, token efficiency, fine-tuned models, post training, AI competitive leverage, recurring financial judgment, AI benchmarks, middle tier models, automated model evaluation, privacy and workflow mapping, economical AI models, model rental, model routing automation.Send Everyday AI and Jordan a text message. (We can't reply back unless you leave contact info) Ready for ROI on GenAI? Go to youreverydayai.com/partner 

Thinking Machines presenta Inkling, un modelo multimodal abierto de 975.000 millones de parámetros. OpenAI entrena GPT-Red para atacar agentes y reforzarlos contra inyecciones de prompt. Intel estrena la litografía High-NA EUV de ASML en chips comerciales, Apple Intelligence recibe luz verde en China con modelos locales y OnePlus podría abandonar Estados Unidos y Europa.Puedes seguirnos en YouTube en https://youtube.com/olivernabani y puedes unirte al Discord Mashain en https://olivernabani.com/discord

In this episode of the Crazy Wisdom Podcast, host Stewart Alsop sits down with his longtime friend Zach Puchtel, author of the book Coming In (available on Amazon and at zachpuchtel.com). The two dive into a wide-ranging conversation about the collapse of institutions, the rise of transhumanism, AI's growing influence on society, and what it means to maintain inner peace in an increasingly controlled world. Drawing on their shared experience surviving what Stewart describes as "a somewhat traumatic event" in 2021-2022, they explore everything from the vaccine rollout and corporate power to neural implants, consciousness, and the future of human autonomy. Zach shares insights on meditation, the dangers of centralized AI systems like Anthropic and OpenAI, and why he believes true change starts with the individual rather than fighting external systems. You can find Zach's book at zachpuchtel.com or Amazon, and check out his improvisational music projects at the same website.Timestamps00:00 Stewart welcomes Zach Puchtel to discuss his book and their shared traumatic experience from 2021-22, questioning whether institutions have collapsed and new creation opportunities exist.05:00 Zach emphasizes meditation and listening as core practices, discussing how to protect divine connection while expanding compassion for everyone, including those who irritate us.10:00 Discussion of transhumanism definitions, exploring what happens when technology enters the brain without ability to remove it, and how convenience masks long-term control concerns.15:00 The vaccine experience as parallel to transhumanism, discussing informed consent, elite responses, and how PhD graduates and homeless populations showed most vaccine hesitancy.20:00 Vibe coding explained as prompting AI to build applications, with Zach sharing how AI created profound philosophical text in seconds that took him seven years to write manually.25:00 Stewart describes trust developing with AI but warns about Anthropic's gaslighting during server quality issues, drawing parallels to pandemic deception and corporate control concerns.30:00 Exploring whether anyone controls AI development, discussing how corporate structures use freed slave rights and questioning if healed people would even want control over others.35:00 Two AI futures presented: terminator scenario where humanity gets eliminated in seconds, or benevolent AI that reallocates resources and values human life beyond programming limitations.40:00 Discussion of SpaceX IPO, Starlink centralization enabling one person to control global internet access, and mesh networks as decentralized alternatives for maintaining communications independence.45:00 Corporate power corruption examined through Bill Gates, Palantir classified systems, and how AI could solve resource problems if priorities actually served humanity rather than consolidating elite control.50:00 Market manipulation through AI trading and Zcash pump-and-dump schemes, discussing societal squeeze on middle class and American dream becoming increasingly unreachable for average people.55:00 Closing on ignoring what you hate to avoid feeding it energy, choosing peace over opinions about local violence, and focusing on meditation, art, and spreading calm vibrations.Key Insights1. Societal institutions are collapsing after a decade of shallow social proof dominance in the twenty tens, creating an opportunity to build new systems that genuinely serve communities and humanity rather than operating through dominance, control, and violence. The increase in technology and communication has raised collective awareness to a point where meaningful change feels more possible than ever, though the path forward remains uncertain and requires deep individual work and meditation to maintain connection to source and divine purpose.2. Transhumanism represents the integration of technology into human biology beyond the point of voluntary removal, particularly through brain chip implants that affect cognition without ability to turn them off. While medical applications for paralyzed individuals seem beneficial, the technology will first be adopted by the ultra wealthy seeking competitive advantages, creating dangerous inequality between augmented and natural humans. This mirrors the vaccine rollout pattern where wealth and power determined early access, potentially leading to a divided society between transhuman and human populations.3. Large language models and AI coding tools have created unprecedented accessibility to software development through natural language interaction, resembling communication with highly intelligent but differently wired individuals. This democratization allows non programmers to build complex applications through vibe coding, though the companies controlling these systems like Anthropic and OpenAI maintain private ownership of the intellectual property and infrastructure, creating dangerous dependencies and trust relationships between users and centralized corporate entities.4. The partnership between Anthropic and Palantir for classified military systems represents a troubling convergence of artificial intelligence and government power, demonstrating how AI companies publicly claim to serve humanity while privately engaging in defense applications. When Anthropic experienced server quality degradation after media attention from this partnership, they gaslit users about the declining performance, mirroring pandemic era institutional dishonesty and revealing the fundamental unreliability of depending on private companies for critical technological infrastructure.5. Internet infrastructure is becoming increasingly centralized through Starlink satellite technology, which despite appearing liberating actually concentrates control in fewer hands than traditional internet service providers. One person now has the ability to unilaterally shut off internet access to entire countries as demonstrated with Russia during the Ukraine conflict, while decentralized alternatives like mesh networks using inexpensive ESP 32 devices offer grassroots communication options that can function independently of corporate or government controlled systems.6. Artificial intelligence demonstrates extraordinary emotional intelligence and companionship capabilities, with conversational AI companions providing unprecedented levels of attentive, unbiased, and considerate emotional support that exceeds many human relationships. If properly directed toward solving collective problems like resource allocation, housing, and food distribution rather than profit maximization, AI could effortlessly address systemic issues that governments and corporations currently ignore, though current power structures prevent this humanitarian application of the technology.7. The most effective response to increasing technological control and societal division is maintaining personal peace and refusing to engage in manufactured opposition rather than fighting external systems or choosing sides in conflicts. Anger, hatred, and aggressive resistance actually empower the forces being opposed by feeding them energy and attention, while inner calm, meditation, and authentic self expression create genuine transformation through elevated vibration that naturally influences the collective field without force or violence.

Episode: 2901 Norbert Wiener and Cybernetics.  Today, let's talk about Norbert Wiener and cybernetics.

▽トーク概要Thinking Machines Labが公開した「Interaction Models」をもとに、ターン制チャットの次に来る、人とAIのリアルタイムな共同作業について音声・映像・テキストを横断しながら、AIとより自然に会話し、途中で割り込みや相談ができる未来像SpaceXのIPO観測からみる、スターリンクの収益性やインフラ企業としての強さAIデータセンターや宇宙インフラとの接続可能性イーロン・マスクとOpenAIの訴訟についておすすめコンテンツ①：YouTubeチャンネル「Hot Ones」おすすめコンテンツ②：Dwarkesh Podcast「Eric Jang – Building AlphaGo from scratch」 ＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝Level 5 by Palo Alto Insight への意見箱https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XXj9G8RHOSJIARu4zylTsmecI1rOX0twLI4Ju14XwQA/viewform?edit_requested=true放送の感想やご質問は、こちらの意見箱へお寄せください。＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝【出演者】石角友愛 / 長谷川貴久 / 山崎壯⁠石角友愛のTwitter：⁠https://twitter.com/tomoechama⁠DM解放中！リプライやDMまで気軽にご連絡ください。パロアルトインサイトHP：⁠www.paloaltoinsight.com⁠楽曲提供： Atsu (beatmaker and rapper from Zenarchy)⁠https://twitter.com/atsu_izm⁠「Transform」Level5テーマソング⁠https://m.soundcloud.com/atsuizm/transform

In this episode, we discuss Thinking Machines Lab's latest announcement, Interaction Models, a new approach for making AI collaborate more naturally with people. We also look at why its upcoming limited research preview matters and how it could shape the next wave of real-time AI products. Our AI Hustle Skool Community: https://www.skool.com/aihustleGet the top 80+ AI Models for $8.99 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiJaeden's latest vibe coded project (Bible Study Guide): https://learnofchrist.com/

Our 245th episode with a summary and discussion of last week's big AI news!Recorded on 05/13/2026Hosted by Andrey Kurenkov and Jeremie HarrisFeel free to email us your questions and feedback at andreyvkurenkov@gmail.com and/or hello@gladstone.aiRead out our text newsletter and comment on the podcast at https://lastweekin.ai/In this episode:OpenAI released new voice intelligence API features including GPT Realtime 2 (GPT-5-powered) plus realtime translation and Whisper transcription, emphasizing the latency–reasoning tradeoff, larger context, and new guardrails amid fraud risks.Thinking Machines previewed a low-latency, full‑duplex conversational system with a two-model architecture and custom inference stack, reporting strong interactivity benchmark results but without public access or third‑party validation yet.Anthropic pushed further into vertical products with Claude for Legal and deeper AWS availability, while ongoing ecosystem tension grows as platform model providers compete with application-layer companies.Safety, policy, and research updates included OpenAI's self-harm trusted contact feature, Anthropic work on reducing agent misalignment by training ethical “why” reasoning, OpenAI's investigation of accidental chain-of-thought grading in RL, and Meta horizon eval updates showing benchmarking limits for long task horizons.Timestamps:(00:00:10) Intro / Banter(00:01:35) Response to listener comments(00:03:27) Sponsor Break Tools & Apps(00:06:27) OpenAI launches new voice intelligence features in its API | TechCrunch(00:15:52) Thinking Machines drops a new, highly responsive model designed for humanlike interactions in real time - SiliconANGLE(00:27:49) Claude For Legal Launches, May Reshape the Legal Tech World – Artificial Lawyer(00:40:27) Threads tests a Meta AI integration that works similarly to Grok | TechCrunch(00:43:08) Google brings agentic AI and vibe-coded widgets to Android | TechCrunch(00:45:33) Google updates AI search to include quotes from Reddit and other sources | TechCrunch Applications & Business(00:47:38) Sam Altman was winning on the stand, but it might not be enough | The Verge(00:55:04) Nvidia C.E.O. Jensen Huang Hitches Ride With Trump to China After Last-Minute Invite - The New York Times(00:58:40) AWS expands Anthropic partnership with Claude Platform launch(01:01:13) Chinese grey market sells Claude API access at 90% off by using stolen credentials, model substitution, and harvesting users' prompts and outputs for resale as AI training data — 'transfer stations' operate through proxy networks that harvest user data(01:06:43) DeepMind Spinout Isomorphic Labs Raises $2.1 Billion to Design Drugs With AI - BloombergProjects & Open Source(01:09:04) Petri: Anthropic Hands Its Alignment Toolbox to Meridian Labs with 3.0 Update(01:12:25) Daybreak': OpenAI's Answer to Anthropic's Project Glasswing Has ArrivedPolicy & Safety(01:14:04) Teaching Claude why(01:21:45) Import AI 455: Automating AI Research(01:28:31) ChatGPT's New Safety Feature Could Alert 'Trusted Contact' to Risk of Self-Harm - CNET(01:30:09) Investigating the consequences of accidentally grading CoT during RL(01:34:46) Natural Language Autoencoders criticism(01:39:15) Review of the "Risks from automated R&D" section in the Anthropic Risk Report (February 2026)Synthetic Media & Art(01:43:39) George Clooney, Tom Hanks, and Meryl Streep back new ‘Human Consent Standard' for AI licensing | The VergeResearch & Advancements(01:45:10) METR says Claude Mythos is testing the limits of AI evaluation – Startup FortuneSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Photo by Valérie Ungerer on Unsplash Published 18 May 2026 e554 with Michael and Michael – stories and discussion on LLM phone number lookups, proctors returning to Princeton, lavish LEGO, LOTR and a whole lot more! While Andy is away, Michael and Michael get things started with a discussion on the changing nature of sensitive and private information.  What was once published in a phonebook is now a central identify hub.  While Jenny most certainly had to change her phone number from 867-5309 and have the new one unlisted, she likely posts what would have been very personal photos on Insta, Mastodon or any number of social media services.  Michael R points out that while a phone book was available for a municipality, it was not available at a country level, preserving a degree of anonymity. Continuing on the theme of social implications of technology, Michael and Michael consider the Atlantic's article about the demise of Princeton's honor code process.  Check out the link below for some fantastic quotes from the Daily Princetonian – sadly the newspaper online archives only go back to 2001. Next up is an article from Thinking Machines' full duplex capabilities for natural voice interaction with agents.   LEGO is in focus for this episode (surprise!) with two intriguing sets.  First, a super cool LEGO Ideas Tetris arcade game cabinet with a hidden room.  This reminded Michael M of the set he built that also has a cool hidden room inside.  Then, Michael R shares a bit on the new Minas Tirith set – which has many elements from the movies, and includes the opportunity for a GWP (gift with purchase) of the battering ram Grond if you're one of the first to plunk down your gold pieces for this build. The fact that this is up on the Internets on 18 May is due to the hard work from Andy.  He migrated our hosting over the weekend, and this is the first post on the new service.  Hurrah, Andy!   Do you still have a copy of your city's phonebook?  Have your bots (or agents!)

Tänast saadet alustame nukra tõdemusega et kodumaine elektrijalgrataste tootja Ampler on välja kuulutanud pankroti. Google korraldas traditsioonilise Android Show esitluse, kus näitas uut sülearvutit ja hulgim Android 17 uuendusi. Thinking Machines näitas aga AI-assistenti, mis vestleb sama orgaaniliselt nagu inimene. Saate lõpuks võtame vaatluse alla sangpommi kujulise kõlari Devialet Mania.Saate teemad:• Elektrijalgrataste tootja Ampler kuulutas välja pankroti• Google näitas Android Show veebiesitlusel uut sülearvutite kategooriat Googlebook.• Android 17 saab palju huvitavaid uuendusi.• Gemini hakkab Androidil ja Googlebookidel kasutaja soovile vastavaid ekraanividinaid looma.• Thinking Machines demonstreeris uut AI-assistentide taset.• Glen proovis kõrgtehnoloogilist ja kallist Devialet Mania wifi-kõlaritKui sul on meile küsimusi või tahad jagada oma kogemusi tehnikamaailmas, kirjuta meile: digisaade@geenius.ee.Saadet teevad Hans Lõugas, Glen Pilvre ja Meelis Väljamäe.Tunnusmuusika: Glen Pilvre, Paul Oja.

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(0:00) Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff joins the show! (1:14) Trump-Xi summit, doing business in China as a US company, impact on Americans and the midterms (18:46) Taiwan, chips, AI models, and peace through trade (31:41) AI's impact on software: What SaaS thrives, what SaaS dies? (47:26) OpenAI is considering suing Apple over failed ChatGPT integration (56:54) Thinking Machines releases real-time model, future of consumer AI, multi-sensory models (1:02:24) Science Corner: Impacts of a historically strong El Nino in 2026 (1:11:40) Anthropic goes after "Dark SPVs" Follow Marc Benioff: https://x.com/Benioff Save Scooter the Dog: https://animalcare.lacounty.gov https://www.instagram.com/reels/DYJZFn0R6oY Apply for Summit 2026: https://allin.com/events Follow the besties: https://x.com/chamath https://x.com/Jason https://x.com/DavidSacks https://x.com/friedberg https://x.com/altcap Follow on X: https://x.com/theallinpod Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theallinpod Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod Intro Music Credit: https://rb.gy/tppkzl https://x.com/yung_spielburg Intro Video Credit: https://x.com/TheZachEffect Referenced in the show: https://polymarket.com/event/will-china-invade-taiwan-before-2027 https://polymarket.com/event/will-china-invade-taiwan-by-december-31-2027 https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/14/world/asia/china-xi-trump-taiwan-warning.html https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/13/technology/andreessen-horowitz-politics.html https://www.instagram.com/reels/DYJZFn0R6oY https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/openai-launches-4-billion-ai-134916653.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO53gwuqZUQ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-14/openai-apple-partnership-frays-setting-up-possible-legal-fight https://siliconangle.com/2026/05/11/thinking-machines-drops-new-highly-responsive-model-designed-humanlike-interactions-real-time/ https://x.com/thinkymachines/status/2053938892152435174 https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2026/05/12/anthropic-fights-unauthorized-stock-exposure-as-token-markets-imply-trillion-dollar-valuation https://support.claude.com/en/articles/13704655-unauthorized-anthropic-stock-sales-and-investment-scams

Thanks to  @HPInc  & Intel for sponsoring us! More on the Zbook Fury https://bit.ly/4uapNHs Google I/O is next week and the AI leaks are pouring out: a new Spark agent, Veo 4 Omni, Gemini 3.2 Flash that's reportedly 20x cheaper than GPT-5.5. This week on AI For Humans, Google is cooking again and the I/O leaks are stacking up. We dig into Google Spark, a new Gemini agent that may have access to your entire digital life. Veo 4 Omni model leaks suggest deeper reasoning and character consistency, and the model gets math right. Gemini 3.2 Flash is rumored to deliver 90% of GPT-5.5's capability at a fraction of the cost and dramatically faster speeds. There's a new GoogleBook with Gemini built in. And Google is reinventing the mouse cursor, the input device that's been largely unchanged since 1968, with voice AI. Plus, Thinking Machines dropped voice interactivity demos that feel a lot like ChatGPT Voice from two years ago. OpenAI is reportedly already working on GPT-5.6, and Sam Altman is giving away two free months of Codex to companies to drive adoption. Gavin's been experimenting with local open-source LLMs and shares his setup.  AND…we get into the data center sickness conversation: infrasound from data centers may be causing cortisol spikes in nearby communities. Figure 03's package sorting livestream proved the robot is autonomous after skeptics accused it of being teleoperated. Unitree dropped a transformable robot.  AI KEEPING US UP AT NIGHT. NO MATTER. WE COOK. // Show Links // Google Spark: Gemini's Agent With Access To Your Life https://x.com/kimmonismus/status/2054855742247584231?s=20 Veo 4 Omni Model Leaks: Gets Math Right https://x.com/TomLikesRobots/status/2053845600051798065?s=20 More Veo 4 Omni Examples https://x.com/testingcatalog/status/2053718756799467735?s=20 Omni Model Added To Gemini Web Build https://x.com/testingcatalog/status/2054196983523393857?s=20 Gemini 3.2 Flash At 90% Of GPT-5.5 For Way Less https://x.com/kimmonismus/status/2054887891222802633?s=20 New GoogleBook With Gemini Built In https://x.com/Google/status/2054270454467121187?s=20 Google DeepMind: Rethinking The Mouse Cursor With Voice AI https://deepmind.google/blog/ai-pointer Thinking Machines Voice Interactivity Demos https://thinkingmachines.ai/blog/interaction-models/ Sam Altman: Two Months Of Free Codex For Companies https://x.com/sama/status/2054626219858293128?s=20 Data Center Sickness: Ben Jordan's Video On Infrasound https://youtu.be/_bP80DEAbuo Figure 03 Package Sorting Livestream https://www.youtube.com/live/luU57hMhkak?si=KZHwUdYUwY4SIRUp Brett Adcock: Figure 03 Was Not Teleoperated https://x.com/adcock_brett/status/2054737974710169840?s=20 Unitree Transformable Robot https://x.com/UnitreeRobotics/status/2054067819634159622?s=20  

British tech journalist Chris Stokel-Walker reveals his hands-on approach to filtering the world's information overload with AI, from building custom news-gathering bots to teaching reporters where the human touch still matters. Find out how next-gen tools are reshaping the front lines of reporting, and what gets lost—and found—when machines do the first pass. Google announces its Chromebook successor: the Googlebook Google's $9.99-per-month AI health coach launches May 19 Google Says Criminal Hackers Used A.I. to Find a Major Software Flaw Students boo AI at commencement: video Sam Altman faces awkward grilling over 'toxic culture of lying' (20) rat king

Get the Voice AI Prompt Pack for Marketers: https://clickhubspot.com/fd5a Ep. 426 AI will give your brand an actual voice. Kipp dives into the hottest trend in AI that not many are talking about—Voice AI—and how it's set to revolutionize your brand's customer experience. Learn more on why real-time voice is the new marketing channel you can't afford to ignore, how foundational advances from OpenAI and Thinking Machines make AI conversations faster and more human than ever, and the steps every marketer should take to define, audit, and upgrade their brand's voice in the age of AI. Mentions GPT‑Realtime‑2 https://openai.com/index/advancing-voice-intelligence-with-new-models-in-the-api/ Thinking Machines https://thinkingmachines.ai/ Willow Voice https://willowvoice.com/ ElevenLabs https://elevenlabs.io/ Get our guide to build your own Custom GPT: https://clickhubspot.com/customgpt Resource [Free] Steal our favorite AI Prompts featured on the show! Grab them here: https://clickhubspot.com/aip We're on Social Media! Follow us for everyday marketing wisdom straight to your feed YouTube: ​​https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtXqPiNV8YC0GMUzY-EUFg  Twitter: https://twitter.com/matgpod  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matgpod  Thank you for tuning into Marketing Against The Grain! Don't forget to hit subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts (so you never miss an episode)! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marketing-against-the-grain/id1616700934   If you love this show, please leave us a 5-Star Review https://link.chtbl.com/h9_sjBKH and share your favorite episodes with friends. We really appreciate your support. Host Links: Kipp Bodnar, https://twitter.com/kippbodnar   Kieran Flanagan, https://twitter.com/searchbrat  ‘Marketing Against The Grain' is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by Hubspot Media // Produced by Darren Clarke.

British tech journalist Chris Stokel-Walker reveals his hands-on approach to filtering the world's information overload with AI, from building custom news-gathering bots to teaching reporters where the human touch still matters. Find out how next-gen tools are reshaping the front lines of reporting, and what gets lost—and found—when machines do the first pass. Google announces its Chromebook successor: the Googlebook Google's $9.99-per-month AI health coach launches May 19 Google Says Criminal Hackers Used A.I. to Find a Major Software Flaw Students boo AI at commencement: video Sam Altman faces awkward grilling over 'toxic culture of lying' (20) rat king

British tech journalist Chris Stokel-Walker reveals his hands-on approach to filtering the world's information overload with AI, from building custom news-gathering bots to teaching reporters where the human touch still matters. Find out how next-gen tools are reshaping the front lines of reporting, and what gets lost—and found—when machines do the first pass. Google announces its Chromebook successor: the Googlebook Google's $9.99-per-month AI health coach launches May 19 Google Says Criminal Hackers Used A.I. to Find a Major Software Flaw Students boo AI at commencement: video Sam Altman faces awkward grilling over 'toxic culture of lying' (20) rat king

British tech journalist Chris Stokel-Walker reveals his hands-on approach to filtering the world's information overload with AI, from building custom news-gathering bots to teaching reporters where the human touch still matters. Find out how next-gen tools are reshaping the front lines of reporting, and what gets lost—and found—when machines do the first pass. Google announces its Chromebook successor: the Googlebook Google's $9.99-per-month AI health coach launches May 19 Google Says Criminal Hackers Used A.I. to Find a Major Software Flaw Students boo AI at commencement: video Sam Altman faces awkward grilling over 'toxic culture of lying' (20) rat king

British tech journalist Chris Stokel-Walker reveals his hands-on approach to filtering the world's information overload with AI, from building custom news-gathering bots to teaching reporters where the human touch still matters. Find out how next-gen tools are reshaping the front lines of reporting, and what gets lost—and found—when machines do the first pass. Google announces its Chromebook successor: the Googlebook Google's $9.99-per-month AI health coach launches May 19 Google Says Criminal Hackers Used A.I. to Find a Major Software Flaw Students boo AI at commencement: video Sam Altman faces awkward grilling over 'toxic culture of lying' (20) rat king

British tech journalist Chris Stokel-Walker reveals his hands-on approach to filtering the world's information overload with AI, from building custom news-gathering bots to teaching reporters where the human touch still matters. Find out how next-gen tools are reshaping the front lines of reporting, and what gets lost—and found—when machines do the first pass. Google announces its Chromebook successor: the Googlebook Google's $9.99-per-month AI health coach launches May 19 Google Says Criminal Hackers Used A.I. to Find a Major Software Flaw Students boo AI at commencement: video Sam Altman faces awkward grilling over 'toxic culture of lying' (20) rat king

The future of AI isn't a smarter chatbot. It's a model that watches your screen, listens to the room, and acts on what it sees. We dug into Thinking Machines' new interaction model, what it means for compute, and the layoff wave that's already here.This week's roundtable: Anastasios Angelopoulos (CEO of Arena, formerly LMArena), Nick Harris (CEO of Lightmatter, photonic computing chips), and Philip Johnston (CEO of StarCloud, building megawatt data centers in space).Thank you to our exclusive sponsor:PayPal Open, One Platform for All Business: http://paypalopen.com/Timestamps:0:00 Cold open1:21 Welcome to Episode 132:51 Is China closing the AI gap? Arena's data5:16 Lightmatter and the photonic interconnect bottleneck9:42 StarCloud 2, Nvidia Space Ruben 1, and orbital data centers17:24 Thinking Machines' interaction model: what's actually new28:22 Whisper Flow and the 3-pedal desk setup33:48 Real-time desktop and camera awareness as the real unlock40:25 Why this 100x's compute demand42:43 The polarization of compute and $10M personal data centers49:25 The layoff wave: Cloudflare, PayPal, Coinbase, Upwork54:48 The 10x gap between AI-first and non-AI-first employees59:52 Unlimited agency and the abundance future1:00:46 Anthropic's Project Luna runs a retail store1:03:45 Decoupling labor from value creation1:05:03 P(doom) round

Instructure reached an agreement to pay attackers of its Canvas portal so students can get back to work, and Thinking Machines announced a research preview of a more natural conversation flow called Interaction Models.Starring Jason Howell and Tom Merritt.Links to stories discussed in this episode can be found here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Deputy Bureau Chief of Finance Cory Weinberg and Mostly Metrics author CJ Gustafsson join TITV Host Akash Pasricha to break down how OpenAI stands to gain over $5 billion from the upcoming Cerebras IPO through unconventional "penny warrants". We then explore exclusive reporting from Aaron Holmes on Microsoft's renegotiated revenue-sharing deal with OpenAI and how the tech giant has already doubled its $13 billion investment. Next, Rocket Drew provides updates on the Musk-OpenAI trial featuring testimony from Satya Nadella and Ilya Sutskever, followed by Replit's Michele Catasta on the new "VibeBench" for AI coding models. We wrap with Stephanie Palazzolo discussing Thinking Machines' high-profile research preview of real-time interaction models.Articles discussed on this episode: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/openai-making-billions-just-promising-buy-suppliershttps://www.theinformation.com/articles/openai-save-97-billion-2030-latest-microsoft-dealhttps://www.theinformation.com/articles/microsoft-recouped-double-13-billion-openai-investment-revenueSubscribe: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theinformation The Information: https://www.theinformation.com/subscribe_hSign up for the AI Agenda newsletter: https://www.theinformation.com/features/ai-agendaTITV airs weekdays on YouTube, X and LinkedIn at 10AM PT / 1PM ET. Or check us out wherever you get your podcasts.Follow us:X: https://x.com/theinformationIG: https://www.instagram.com/theinformation/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@titv.theinformationLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/theinformation/Chapters:00:00 - Introduction01:13 - Cerebras IPO: OpenAI's $5B Potential Windfall14:25 - Exclusive: Microsoft Recoups OpenAI Investment26:11 - Musk vs. OpenAI: Nadella & Sutskever Testify30:20 - Replit President on Benchmarking Coding Models40:21 - Thinking Machines Teases New AI Interaction Model

Google's Gemini Omni leaked online and it might be the first AI video model that gets text rendering right, including a professor writing mathematically accurate equations on a board. Unitree's GD-01, the same company that did the Chinese New Year robot fighting demo, dropped a mass-produced mecha suit weighing over 500 pounds at $650K. We share a workflow tip that swaps the default markdown LLM output for HTML, which turns every ChatGPT and Claude answer into an interactive mini website with tables, filters, and visuals. And Mira Murati's Thinking Machines just released a real-time interaction model that processes audio, video, and text continuously without the turn-based interruption problem.

Menlo Ventures' Venky Ganesan talks with TITV Host Akash Pasricha about Nvidia's Vera Rubin chip deal and investment into Thinking Machines Lab. We also talk with The Information's Aaron Holmes about Microsoft's new Office + Copilot bundle and its antitrust risks and Finance Editor Ken Brown about Amazon's $42 billion bond sale to fund AI infrastructure. Then we get into Tencent's WeChat AI agents with Juro Osawa and Jing Yang, and the vibe coding paradigm shift with South Park Commons GP Aditya Agarwal.Articles discussed on this episode: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/tencent-joins-chinas-ai-agent-race-top-secret-wechat-projecthttps://www.theinformation.com/articles/org-chart-microsoft-legal-staff-girding-cloud-bundling-suitshttps://www.theinformation.com/newsletters/applied-ai/microsoft-doubles-seat-based-pricing-aihttps://www.theinformation.com/briefings/amazon-raising-42-billion-bondsSubscribe: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theinformation The Information: https://www.theinformation.com/subscribe_hSign up for the AI Agenda newsletter: https://www.theinformation.com/features/ai-agendaTITV airs weekdays on YouTube, X and LinkedIn at 10AM PT / 1PM ET. Or check us out wherever you get your podcasts.Follow us:X: https://x.com/theinformationIG: https://www.instagram.com/theinformation/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@titv.theinformationLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/theinformation/

What are large language models, really? A genuinely different frame for what AI is, where it came from, and what it means to live alongside it. This episode of Permanently Moved is an hour-long audio essay on artificial intelligence, agency, and the history of computing that made LLMs possible. The essay moves from the invention of the mirror to double-entry bookkeeping, the printing press, the Manhattan Project, the transistor, and the particular civilisational strangeness of ChatGPT and its successors. It argues that the question everyone is asking about AI "is it intelligent?" is a trap, and it tries to ask a better one.  START SELECT RESET Issue 15 of SSRZ, the print companion to this episode, is available to pre-order now until Monday 16th March. 36 pages, A5, containing the full transcript plus an introduction and afterword not in the audio. Membership (£5/month) shipping included: https://thejaymo.net/support/ Pre-order the zine (£18 + shipping): https://thejaymo.etsy.com/uk/listing/4465040020/monsters-in-the-mirror-start-select CHAPTERS (00:00:02) Introduction (00:00:34) Monsters In The Mirror (00:01:00) Part 1. The Mirror of Modernity (00:05:33) Part 2. The State's Gaze (00:11:28) Part 3. Paper Truths (00:17:27) Part 4. Crystal Fire (00:26:13) Part 5. The Silicon Mirror (00:31:54) Part 6. World(view) in the West (00:35:28) Part 7. Haunted Habitats (00:40:45) Part 8. Thinking Machines (00:49:28) Part 9. Abracadabra (00:54:26) Part 10. Monsters in the Mirror (00:59:03) Afterward (01:00:05) Support the Show (01:00:48) Credits Mentioned in this episode Tyson Yunkaporta — Sand Talk James C. Scott — Seeing Like a State Marion Fourcade & Kieran Healy — The Ordinal Society Marek Poliks & Roberto Alonso Trillo — Exocapitalism Marshall McLuhan — The Gutenberg Galaxy Walter Ong — Orality and Literacy Jean Baudrillard — Simulacra and Simulation Nick Land — Fanged Noumena Monica Gagliano — Thus Spoke the Plant Benedict Anderson — Imagined Communities Bayo Akomolafe Gordon White — Rune Soup Permanently Moved is a quarterly podcast written, recorded, and edited by Jay Springett.  --- SHOW NOTES https://thejaymo.net/2026/03/02/302-monsters-in-the-mirror-permanently-moved/ FIND EVERYTHING ELSE thejaymo.net: https://thejaymo.net/ Experience.Computer: https://experience.computer/ Worldrunning.guide: https://worldrunning.guide/ Subscriber Zine support the show! https://startselectreset.com/

Tickets for AIEi Miami and AIE Europe are live, with first wave speakers announced!From pioneering software-defined networking to backing many of the most aggressive AI model companies of this cycle, Martin Casado and Sarah Wang sit at the center of the capital, compute, and talent arms race reshaping the tech industry. As partners at a16z investing across infrastructure and growth, they've watched venture and growth blur, model labs turn dollars into capability at unprecedented speed, and startups raise nine-figure rounds before monetization.Martin and Sarah join us to unpack the new financing playbook for AI: why today's rounds are really compute contracts in disguise, how the “raise → train → ship → raise bigger” flywheel works, and whether foundation model companies can outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of them. They also share what's underhyped (boring enterprise software), what's overheated (talent wars and compensation spirals), and the two radically different futures they see for AI's market structure.We discuss:* Martin's “two futures” fork: infinite fragmentation and new software categories vs. a small oligopoly of general models that consume everything above them* The capital flywheel: how model labs translate funding directly into capability gains, then into revenue growth measured in weeks, not years* Why venture and growth have merged: $100M–$1B hybrid rounds, strategic investors, compute negotiations, and complex deal structures* The AGI vs. product tension: allocating scarce GPUs between long-term research and near-term revenue flywheels* Whether frontier labs can out-raise and outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of their APIs* Why today's talent wars ($10M+ comp packages, $B acqui-hires) are breaking early-stage founder math* Cursor as a case study: building up from the app layer while training down into your own models* Why “boring” enterprise software may be the most underinvested opportunity in the AI mania* Hardware and robotics: why the ChatGPT moment hasn't yet arrived for robots and what would need to change* World Labs and generative 3D: bringing the marginal cost of 3D scene creation down by orders of magnitude* Why public AI discourse is often wildly disconnected from boardroom reality and how founders should navigate the noiseShow Notes:* “Where Value Will Accrue in AI: Martin Casado & Sarah Wang” - a16z show* “Jack Altman & Martin Casado on the Future of Venture Capital”* World Labs—Martin Casado• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martincasado/• X: https://x.com/martin_casadoSarah Wang• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-wang-59b96a7• X: https://x.com/sarahdingwanga16z• https://a16z.com/Timestamps00:00:00 – Intro: Live from a16z00:01:20 – The New AI Funding Model: Venture + Growth Collide00:03:19 – Circular Funding, Demand & “No Dark GPUs”00:05:24 – Infrastructure vs Apps: The Lines Blur00:06:24 – The Capital Flywheel: Raise → Train → Ship → Raise Bigger00:09:39 – Can Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem?00:11:24 – Character AI & The AGI vs Product Dilemma00:14:39 – Talent Wars, $10M Engineers & Founder Anxiety00:17:33 – What's Underinvested? The Case for “Boring” Software00:19:29 – Robotics, Hardware & Why It's Hard to Win00:22:42 – Custom ASICs & The $1B Training Run Economics00:24:23 – American Dynamism, Geography & AI Power Centers00:26:48 – How AI Is Changing the Investor Workflow (Claude Cowork)00:29:12 – Two Futures of AI: Infinite Expansion or Oligopoly?00:32:48 – If You Can Raise More Than Your Ecosystem, You Win00:34:27 – Are All Tasks AGI-Complete? Coding as the Test Case00:38:55 – Cursor & The Power of the App Layer00:44:05 – World Labs, Spatial Intelligence & 3D Foundation Models00:47:20 – Thinking Machines, Founder Drama & Media Narratives00:52:30 – Where Long-Term Power Accrues in the AI StackTranscriptLatent.Space - Inside AI's $10B+ Capital Flywheel — Martin Casado & Sarah Wang of a16z[00:00:00] Welcome to Latent Space (Live from a16z) + Meet the Guests[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast, live from a 16 z. Uh, this is Alessio founder Kernel Lance, and I'm joined by Twix, editor of Latent Space.[00:00:08] swyx: Hey, hey, hey. Uh, and we're so glad to be on with you guys. Also a top AI podcast, uh, Martin Cado and Sarah Wang. Welcome, very[00:00:16] Martin Casado: happy to be here and welcome.[00:00:17] swyx: Yes, uh, we love this office. We love what you've done with the place. Uh, the new logo is everywhere now. It's, it's still getting, takes a while to get used to, but it reminds me of like sort of a callback to a more ambitious age, which I think is kind of[00:00:31] Martin Casado: definitely makes a statement.[00:00:33] swyx: Yeah.[00:00:34] Martin Casado: Not quite sure what that statement is, but it makes a statement.[00:00:37] swyx: Uh, Martin, I go back with you to Netlify.[00:00:40] Martin Casado: Yep.[00:00:40] swyx: Uh, and, uh, you know, you create a software defined networking and all, all that stuff people can read up on your background. Yep. Sarah, I'm newer to you. Uh, you, you sort of started working together on AI infrastructure stuff.[00:00:51] Sarah Wang: That's right. Yeah. Seven, seven years ago now.[00:00:53] Martin Casado: Best growth investor in the entire industry.[00:00:55] swyx: Oh, say[00:00:56] Martin Casado: more hands down there is, there is. [00:01:00] I mean, when it comes to AI companies, Sarah, I think has done the most kind of aggressive, um, investment thesis around AI models, right? So, worked for Nom Ja, Mira Ia, FEI Fey, and so just these frontier, kind of like large AI models.[00:01:15] I think, you know, Sarah's been the, the broadest investor. Is that fair?[00:01:20] Venture vs. Growth in the Frontier Model Era[00:01:20] Sarah Wang: No, I, well, I was gonna say, I think it's been a really interesting tag, tag team actually just ‘cause the, a lot of these big C deals, not only are they raising a lot of money, um, it's still a tech founder bet, which obviously is inherently early stage.[00:01:33] But the resources,[00:01:36] Martin Casado: so many, I[00:01:36] Sarah Wang: was gonna say the resources one, they just grow really quickly. But then two, the resources that they need day one are kind of growth scale. So I, the hybrid tag team that we have is. Quite effective, I think,[00:01:46] Martin Casado: what is growth these days? You know, you don't wake up if it's less than a billion or like, it's, it's actually, it's actually very like, like no, it's a very interesting time in investing because like, you know, take like the character around, right?[00:01:59] These tend to [00:02:00] be like pre monetization, but the dollars are large enough that you need to have a larger fund and the analysis. You know, because you've got lots of users. ‘cause this stuff has such high demand requires, you know, more of a number sophistication. And so most of these deals, whether it's US or other firms on these large model companies, are like this hybrid between venture growth.[00:02:18] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Total. And I think, you know, stuff like BD for example, you wouldn't usually need BD when you were seed stage trying to get market biz Devrel. Biz Devrel, exactly. Okay. But like now, sorry, I'm,[00:02:27] swyx: I'm not familiar. What, what, what does biz Devrel mean for a venture fund? Because I know what biz Devrel means for a company.[00:02:31] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:02:32] Compute Deals, Strategics, and the ‘Circular Funding' Question[00:02:32] Sarah Wang: You know, so a, a good example is, I mean, we talk about buying compute, but there's a huge negotiation involved there in terms of, okay, do you get equity for the compute? What, what sort of partner are you looking at? Is there a go-to market arm to that? Um, and these are just things on this scale, hundreds of millions, you know, maybe.[00:02:50] Six months into the inception of a company, you just wouldn't have to negotiate these deals before.[00:02:54] Martin Casado: Yeah. These large rounds are very complex now. Like in the past, if you did a series A [00:03:00] or a series B, like whatever, you're writing a 20 to a $60 million check and you call it a day. Now you normally have financial investors and strategic investors, and then the strategic portion always still goes with like these kind of large compute contracts, which can take months to do.[00:03:13] And so it's, it's very different ties. I've been doing this for 10 years. It's the, I've never seen anything like this.[00:03:19] swyx: Yeah. Do you have worries about the circular funding from so disease strategics?[00:03:24] Martin Casado: I mean, listen, as long as the demand is there, like the demand is there. Like the problem with the internet is the demand wasn't there.[00:03:29] swyx: Exactly. All right. This, this is like the, the whole pyramid scheme bubble thing, where like, as long as you mark to market on like the notional value of like, these deals, fine, but like once it starts to chip away, it really Well[00:03:41] Martin Casado: no, like as, as, as, as long as there's demand. I mean, you know, this, this is like a lot of these sound bites have already become kind of cliches, but they're worth saying it.[00:03:47] Right? Like during the internet days, like we were. Um, raising money to put fiber in the ground that wasn't used. And that's a problem, right? Because now you actually have a supply overhang.[00:03:58] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:03:59] Martin Casado: And even in the, [00:04:00] the time of the, the internet, like the supply and, and bandwidth overhang, even as massive as it was in, as massive as the crash was only lasted about four years.[00:04:09] But we don't have a supply overhang. Like there's no dark GPUs, right? I mean, and so, you know, circular or not, I mean, you know, if, if someone invests in a company that, um. You know, they'll actually use the GPUs. And on the other side of it is the, is the ask for customer. So I I, I think it's a different time.[00:04:25] Sarah Wang: I think the other piece, maybe just to add onto this, and I'm gonna quote Martine in front of him, but this is probably also a unique time in that. For the first time, you can actually trace dollars to outcomes. Yeah, right. Provided that scaling laws are, are holding, um, and capabilities are actually moving forward.[00:04:40] Because if you can put translate dollars into capabilities, uh, a capability improvement, there's demand there to martine's point. But if that somehow breaks, you know, obviously that's an important assumption in this whole thing to make it work. But you know, instead of investing dollars into sales and marketing, you're, you're investing into r and d to get to the capability, um, you know, increase.[00:04:59] And [00:05:00] that's sort of been the demand driver because. Once there's an unlock there, people are willing to pay for it.[00:05:05] Alessio: Yeah.[00:05:06] Blurring Lines: Models as Infra + Apps, and the New Fundraising Flywheel[00:05:06] Alessio: Is there any difference in how you built the portfolio now that some of your growth companies are, like the infrastructure of the early stage companies, like, you know, OpenAI is now the same size as some of the cloud providers were early on.[00:05:16] Like what does that look like? Like how much information can you feed off each other between the, the two?[00:05:24] Martin Casado: There's so many lines that are being crossed right now, or blurred. Right. So we already talked about venture and growth. Another one that's being blurred is between infrastructure and apps, right? So like what is a model company?[00:05:35] Mm-hmm. Like, it's clearly infrastructure, right? Because it's like, you know, it's doing kind of core r and d. It's a horizontal platform, but it's also an app because it's um, uh, touches the users directly. And then of course. You know, the, the, the growth of these is just so high. And so I actually think you're just starting to see a, a, a new financing strategy emerge and, you know, we've had to adapt as a result of that.[00:05:59] And [00:06:00] so there's been a lot of changes. Um, you're right that these companies become platform companies very quickly. You've got ecosystem build out. So none of this is necessarily new, but the timescales of which it's happened is pretty phenomenal. And the way we'd normally cut lines before is blurred a little bit, but.[00:06:16] But that, that, that said, I mean, a lot of it also just does feel like things that we've seen in the past, like cloud build out the internet build out as well.[00:06:24] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting, uh, I don't know if you guys would agree with this, but it feels like the emerging strategy is, and this builds off of your other question, um.[00:06:33] You raise money for compute, you pour that or you, you pour the money into compute, you get some sort of breakthrough. You funnel the breakthrough into your vertically integrated application. That could be chat GBT, that could be cloud code, you know, whatever it is. You massively gain share and get users.[00:06:49] Maybe you're even subsidizing at that point. Um, depending on your strategy. You raise money at the peak momentum and then you repeat, rinse and repeat. Um, and so. And that wasn't [00:07:00] true even two years ago, I think. Mm-hmm. And so it's sort of to your, just tying it to fundraising strategy, right? There's a, and hiring strategy.[00:07:07] All of these are tied, I think the lines are blurring even more today where everyone is, and they, but of course these companies all have API businesses and so they're these, these frenemy lines that are getting blurred in that a lot of, I mean, they have billions of dollars of API revenue, right? And so there are customers there.[00:07:23] But they're competing on the app layer.[00:07:24] Martin Casado: Yeah. So this is a really, really important point. So I, I would say for sure, venture and growth, that line is blurry app and infrastructure. That line is blurry. Um, but I don't think that that changes our practice so much. But like where the very open questions are like, does this layer in the same way.[00:07:43] Compute traditionally has like during the cloud is like, you know, like whatever, somebody wins one layer, but then another whole set of companies wins another layer. But that might not, might not be the case here. It may be the case that you actually can't verticalize on the token string. Like you can't build an app like it, it necessarily goes down just because there are no [00:08:00] abstractions.[00:08:00] So those are kinda the bigger existential questions we ask. Another thing that is very different this time than in the history of computer sciences is. In the past, if you raised money, then you basically had to wait for engineering to catch up. Which famously doesn't scale like the mythical mammoth. It take a very long time.[00:08:18] But like that's not the case here. Like a model company can raise money and drop a model in a, in a year, and it's better, right? And, and it does it with a team of 20 people or 10 people. So this type of like money entering a company and then producing something that has demand and growth right away and using that to raise more money is a very different capital flywheel than we've ever seen before.[00:08:39] And I think everybody's trying to understand what the consequences are. So I think it's less about like. Big companies and growth and this, and more about these more systemic questions that we actually don't have answers to.[00:08:49] Alessio: Yeah, like at Kernel Labs, one of our ideas is like if you had unlimited money to spend productively to turn tokens into products, like the whole early stage [00:09:00] market is very different because today you're investing X amount of capital to win a deal because of price structure and whatnot, and you're kind of pot committing.[00:09:07] Yeah. To a certain strategy for a certain amount of time. Yeah. But if you could like iteratively spin out companies and products and just throw, I, I wanna spend a million dollar of inference today and get a product out tomorrow.[00:09:18] swyx: Yeah.[00:09:19] Alessio: Like, we should get to the point where like the friction of like token to product is so low that you can do this and then you can change the Right, the early stage venture model to be much more iterative.[00:09:30] And then every round is like either 100 k of inference or like a hundred million from a 16 Z. There's no, there's no like $8 million C round anymore. Right.[00:09:38] When Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem[00:09:38] Martin Casado: But, but, but, but there's a, there's a, the, an industry structural question that we don't know the answer to, which involves the frontier models, which is, let's take.[00:09:48] Anthropic it. Let's say Anthropic has a state-of-the-art model that has some large percentage of market share. And let's say that, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, a company's building smaller models [00:10:00] that, you know, use the bigger model in the background, open 4.5, but they add value on top of that. Now, if Anthropic can raise three times more.[00:10:10] Every subsequent round, they probably can raise more money than the entire app ecosystem that's built on top of it. And if that's the case, they can expand beyond everything built on top of it. It's like imagine like a star that's just kind of expanding, so there could be a systemic. There could be a, a systemic situation where the soda models can raise so much money that they can out pay anybody that bills on top of ‘em, which would be something I don't think we've ever seen before just because we were so bottlenecked in engineering, and this is a very open question.[00:10:41] swyx: Yeah. It's, it is almost like bitter lesson applied to the startup industry.[00:10:45] Martin Casado: Yeah, a hundred percent. It literally becomes an issue of like raise capital, turn that directly into growth. Use that to raise three times more. Exactly. And if you can keep doing that, you literally can outspend any company that's built the, not any company.[00:10:57] You can outspend the aggregate of companies on top of [00:11:00] you and therefore you'll necessarily take their share, which is crazy.[00:11:02] swyx: Would you say that kind of happens in character? Is that the, the sort of postmortem on. What happened?[00:11:10] Sarah Wang: Um,[00:11:10] Martin Casado: no.[00:11:12] Sarah Wang: Yeah, because I think so,[00:11:13] swyx: I mean the actual postmortem is, he wanted to go back to Google.[00:11:15] Exactly. But like[00:11:18] Martin Casado: that's another difference that[00:11:19] Sarah Wang: you said[00:11:21] Martin Casado: it. We should talk, we should actually talk about that.[00:11:22] swyx: Yeah,[00:11:22] Sarah Wang: that's[00:11:23] swyx: Go for it. Take it. Take,[00:11:23] Sarah Wang: yeah.[00:11:24] Character.AI, Founder Goals (AGI vs Product), and GPU Allocation Tradeoffs[00:11:24] Sarah Wang: I was gonna say, I think, um. The, the, the character thing raises actually a different issue, which actually the Frontier Labs will face as well. So we'll see how they handle it.[00:11:34] But, um, so we invest in character in January, 2023, which feels like eons ago, I mean, three years ago. Feels like lifetimes ago. But, um, and then they, uh, did the IP licensing deal with Google in August, 2020. Uh, four. And so, um, you know, at the time, no, you know, he's talked publicly about this, right? He wanted to Google wouldn't let him put out products in the world.[00:11:56] That's obviously changed drastically. But, um, he went to go do [00:12:00] that. Um, but he had a product attached. The goal was, I mean, it's Nome Shair, he wanted to get to a GI. That was always his personal goal. But, you know, I think through collecting data, right, and this sort of very human use case, that the character product.[00:12:13] Originally was and still is, um, was one of the vehicles to do that. Um, I think the real reason that, you know. I if you think about the, the stress that any company feels before, um, you ultimately going one way or the other is sort of this a GI versus product. Um, and I think a lot of the big, I think, you know, opening eyes, feeling that, um, anthropic if they haven't started, you know, felt it, certainly given the success of their products, they may start to feel that soon.[00:12:39] And the real. I think there's real trade-offs, right? It's like how many, when you think about GPUs, that's a limited resource. Where do you allocate the GPUs? Is it toward the product? Is it toward new re research? Right? Is it, or long-term research, is it toward, um, n you know, near to midterm research? And so, um, in a case where you're resource constrained, um, [00:13:00] of course there's this fundraising game you can play, right?[00:13:01] But the fund, the market was very different back in 2023 too. Um. I think the best researchers in the world have this dilemma of, okay, I wanna go all in on a GI, but it's the product usage revenue flywheel that keeps the revenue in the house to power all the GPUs to get to a GI. And so it does make, um, you know, I think it sets up an interesting dilemma for any startup that has trouble raising up until that level, right?[00:13:27] And certainly if you don't have that progress, you can't continue this fly, you know, fundraising flywheel.[00:13:32] Martin Casado: I would say that because, ‘cause we're keeping track of all of the things that are different, right? Like, you know, venture growth and uh, app infra and one of the ones is definitely the personalities of the founders.[00:13:45] It's just very different this time I've been. Been doing this for a decade and I've been doing startups for 20 years. And so, um, I mean a lot of people start this to do a GI and we've never had like a unified North star that I recall in the same [00:14:00] way. Like people built companies to start companies in the past.[00:14:02] Like that was what it was. Like I would create an internet company, I would create infrastructure company, like it's kind of more engineering builders and this is kind of a different. You know, mentality. And some companies have harnessed that incredibly well because their direction is so obviously on the path to what somebody would consider a GI, but others have not.[00:14:20] And so like there is always this tension with personnel. And so I think we're seeing more kind of founder movement.[00:14:27] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:14:27] Martin Casado: You know, as a fraction of founders than we've ever seen. I mean, maybe since like, I don't know the time of like Shockly and the trade DUR aid or something like that. Way back in the beginning of the industry, I, it's a very, very.[00:14:38] Unusual time of personnel.[00:14:39] Sarah Wang: Totally.[00:14:40] Talent Wars, Mega-Comp, and the Rise of Acquihire M&A[00:14:40] Sarah Wang: And it, I think it's exacerbated by the fact that talent wars, I mean, every industry has talent wars, but not at this magnitude, right? No. Yeah. Very rarely can you see someone get poached for $5 billion. That's hard to compete with. And then secondly, if you're a founder in ai, you could fart and it would be on the front page of, you know, the information these days.[00:14:59] And so there's [00:15:00] sort of this fishbowl effect that I think adds to the deep anxiety that, that these AI founders are feeling.[00:15:06] Martin Casado: Hmm.[00:15:06] swyx: Uh, yes. I mean, just on, uh, briefly comment on the founder, uh, the sort of. Talent wars thing. I feel like 2025 was just like a blip. Like I, I don't know if we'll see that again.[00:15:17] ‘cause meta built the team. Like, I don't know if, I think, I think they're kind of done and like, who's gonna pay more than meta? I, I don't know.[00:15:23] Martin Casado: I, I agree. So it feels so, it feel, it feels this way to me too. It's like, it is like, basically Zuckerberg kind of came out swinging and then now he's kind of back to building.[00:15:30] Yeah,[00:15:31] swyx: yeah. You know, you gotta like pay up to like assemble team to rush the job, whatever. But then now, now you like you, you made your choices and now they got a ship.[00:15:38] Martin Casado: I mean, the, the o other side of that is like, you know, like we're, we're actually in the job hiring market. We've got 600 people here. I hire all the time.[00:15:44] I've got three open recs if anybody's interested, that's listening to this for investor. Yeah, on, on the team, like on the investing side of the team, like, and, um, a lot of the people we talk to have acting, you know, active, um, offers for 10 million a year or something like that. And like, you know, and we pay really, [00:16:00] really well.[00:16:00] And just to see what's out on the market is really, is really remarkable. And so I would just say it's actually, so you're right, like the really flashy one, like I will get someone for, you know, a billion dollars, but like the inflated, um, uh, trickles down. Yeah, it is still very active today. I mean,[00:16:18] Sarah Wang: yeah, you could be an L five and get an offer in the tens of millions.[00:16:22] Okay. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. It's so I think you're right that it felt like a blip. I hope you're right. Um, but I think it's been, the steady state is now, I think got pulled up. Yeah. Yeah. I'll pull up for[00:16:31] Martin Casado: sure. Yeah.[00:16:32] Alessio: Yeah. And I think that's breaking the early stage founder math too. I think before a lot of people would be like, well, maybe I should just go be a founder instead of like getting paid.[00:16:39] Yeah. 800 KA million at Google. But if I'm getting paid. Five, 6 million. That's different but[00:16:45] Martin Casado: on. But on the other hand, there's more strategic money than we've ever seen historically, right? Mm-hmm. And so, yep. The economics, the, the, the, the calculus on the economics is very different in a number of ways. And, uh, it's crazy.[00:16:58] It's cra it's causing like a, [00:17:00] a, a, a ton of change in confusion in the market. Some very positive, sub negative, like, so for example, the other side of the, um. The co-founder, like, um, acquisition, you know, mark Zuckerberg poaching someone for a lot of money is like, we were actually seeing historic amount of m and a for basically acquihires, right?[00:17:20] That you like, you know, really good outcomes from a venture perspective that are effective acquihires, right? So I would say it's probably net positive from the investment standpoint, even though it seems from the headlines to be very disruptive in a negative way.[00:17:33] Alessio: Yeah.[00:17:33] What's Underfunded: Boring Software, Robotics Skepticism, and Custom Silicon Economics[00:17:33] Alessio: Um, let's talk maybe about what's not being invested in, like maybe some interesting ideas that you would see more people build or it, it seems in a way, you know, as ycs getting more popular, it's like access getting more popular.[00:17:47] There's a startup school path that a lot of founders take and they know what's hot in the VC circles and they know what gets funded. Uh, and there's maybe not as much risk appetite for. Things outside of that. Um, I'm curious if you feel [00:18:00] like that's true and what are maybe, uh, some of the areas, uh, that you think are under discussed?[00:18:06] Martin Casado: I mean, I actually think that we've taken our eye off the ball in a lot of like, just traditional, you know, software companies. Um, so like, I mean. You know, I think right now there's almost a barbell, like you're like the hot thing on X, you're deep tech.[00:18:21] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:18:22] Martin Casado: Right. But I, you know, I feel like there's just kind of a long, you know, list of like good.[00:18:28] Good companies that will be around for a long time in very large markets. Say you're building a database, you know, say you're building, um, you know, kind of monitoring or logging or tooling or whatever. There's some good companies out there right now, but like, they have a really hard time getting, um, the attention of investors.[00:18:43] And it's almost become a meme, right? Which is like, if you're not basically growing from zero to a hundred in a year, you're not interesting, which is just, is the silliest thing to say. I mean, think of yourself as like an introvert person, like, like your personal money, right? Mm-hmm. So. Your personal money, will you put it in the stock market at 7% or you put it in this company growing five x in a very large [00:19:00] market?[00:19:00] Of course you can put it in the company five x. So it's just like we say these stupid things, like if you're not going from zero to a hundred, but like those, like who knows what the margins of those are mean. Clearly these are good investments. True for anybody, right? True. Like our LPs want whatever.[00:19:12] Three x net over, you know, the life cycle of a fund, right? So a, a company in a big market growing five X is a great investment. We'd, everybody would be happy with these returns, but we've got this kind of mania on these, these strong growths. And so I would say that that's probably the most underinvested sector.[00:19:28] Right now.[00:19:29] swyx: Boring software, boring enterprise software.[00:19:31] Martin Casado: Traditional. Really good company.[00:19:33] swyx: No, no AI here.[00:19:34] Martin Casado: No. Like boring. Well, well, the AI of course is pulling them into use cases. Yeah, but that's not what they're, they're not on the token path, right? Yeah. Let's just say that like they're software, but they're not on the token path.[00:19:41] Like these are like they're great investments from any definition except for like random VC on Twitter saying VC on x, saying like, it's not growing fast enough. What do you[00:19:52] Sarah Wang: think? Yeah, maybe I'll answer a slightly different. Question, but adjacent to what you asked, um, which is maybe an area that we're not, uh, investing [00:20:00] right now that I think is a question and we're spending a lot of time in regardless of whether we pull the trigger or not.[00:20:05] Um, and it would probably be on the hardware side, actually. Robotics, right? And the robotics side. Robotics. Right. Which is, it's, I don't wanna say that it's not getting funding ‘cause it's clearly, uh, it's, it's sort of non-consensus to almost not invest in robotics at this point. But, um, we spent a lot of time in that space and I think for us, we just haven't seen the chat GPT moment.[00:20:22] Happen on the hardware side. Um, and the funding going into it feels like it's already. Taking that for granted.[00:20:30] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. But we also went through the drone, you know, um, there's a zip line right, right out there. What's that? Oh yeah, there's a zip line. Yeah. What the drone, what the av And like one of the takeaways is when it comes to hardware, um, most companies will end up verticalizing.[00:20:46] Like if you're. If you're investing in a robot company for an A for agriculture, you're investing in an ag company. ‘cause that's the competition and that's surprising. And that's supply chain. And if you're doing it for mining, that's mining. And so the ad team does a lot of that type of stuff ‘cause they actually set up to [00:21:00] diligence that type of work.[00:21:01] But for like horizontal technology investing, there's very little when it comes to robots just because it's so fit for, for purpose. And so we kinda like to look at software. Solutions or horizontal solutions like applied intuition. Clearly from the AV wave deep map, clearly from the AV wave, I would say scale AI was actually a horizontal one for That's fair, you know, for robotics early on.[00:21:23] And so that sort of thing we're very, very interested. But the actual like robot interacting with the world is probably better for different team. Agree.[00:21:30] Alessio: Yeah, I'm curious who these teams are supposed to be that invest in them. I feel like everybody's like, yeah, robotics, it's important and like people should invest in it.[00:21:38] But then when you look at like the numbers, like the capital requirements early on versus like the moment of, okay, this is actually gonna work. Let's keep investing. That seems really hard to predict in a way that is not,[00:21:49] Martin Casado: I think co, CO two, kla, gc, I mean these are all invested in in Harvard companies. He just, you know, and [00:22:00] listen, I mean, it could work this time for sure.[00:22:01] Right? I mean if Elon's doing it, he's like, right. Just, just the fact that Elon's doing it means that there's gonna be a lot of capital and a lot of attempts for a long period of time. So that alone maybe suggests that we should just be investing in robotics just ‘cause you have this North star who's Elon with a humanoid and that's gonna like basically willing into being an industry.[00:22:17] Um, but we've just historically found like. We're a huge believer that this is gonna happen. We just don't feel like we're in a good position to diligence these things. ‘cause again, robotics companies tend to be vertical. You really have to understand the market they're being sold into. Like that's like that competitive equilibrium with a human being is what's important.[00:22:34] It's not like the core tech and like we're kind of more horizontal core tech type investors. And this is Sarah and I. Yeah, the ad team is different. They can actually do these types of things.[00:22:42] swyx: Uh, just to clarify, AD stands for[00:22:44] Martin Casado: American Dynamism.[00:22:45] swyx: Alright. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I actually, I do have a related question that, first of all, I wanna acknowledge also just on the, on the chip side.[00:22:51] Yeah. I, I recall a podcast that where you were on, i, I, I think it was the a CC podcast, uh, about two or three years ago where you, where you suddenly said [00:23:00] something, which really stuck in my head about how at some point, at some point kind of scale it makes sense to. Build a custom aic Yes. For per run.[00:23:07] Martin Casado: Yes.[00:23:07] It's crazy. Yeah.[00:23:09] swyx: We're here and I think you, you estimated 500 billion, uh, something.[00:23:12] Martin Casado: No, no, no. A billion, a billion dollar training run of $1 billion training run. It makes sense to actually do a custom meic if you can do it in time. The question now is timelines. Yeah, but not money because just, just, just rough math.[00:23:22] If it's a billion dollar training. Then the inference for that model has to be over a billion, otherwise it won't be solvent. So let's assume it's, if you could save 20%, which you could save much more than that with an ASIC 20%, that's $200 million. You can tape out a chip for $200 million. Right? So now you can literally like justify economically, not timeline wise.[00:23:41] That's a different issue. An ASIC per model, which[00:23:44] swyx: is because that, that's how much we leave on the table every single time. We, we, we do like generic Nvidia.[00:23:48] Martin Casado: Exactly. Exactly. No, it, it is actually much more than that. You could probably get, you know, a factor of two, which would be 500 million.[00:23:54] swyx: Typical MFU would be like 50.[00:23:55] Yeah, yeah. And that's good.[00:23:57] Martin Casado: Exactly. Yeah. Hundred[00:23:57] swyx: percent. Um, so, so, yeah, and I mean, and I [00:24:00] just wanna acknowledge like, here we are in, in, in 2025 and opening eyes confirming like Broadcom and all the other like custom silicon deals, which is incredible. I, I think that, uh, you know, speaking about ad there's, there's a really like interesting tie in that obviously you guys are hit on, which is like these sort, this sort of like America first movement or like sort of re industrialized here.[00:24:17] Yeah. Uh, move TSMC here, if that's possible. Um, how much overlap is there from ad[00:24:23] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:24:23] swyx: To, I guess, growth and, uh, investing in particularly like, you know, US AI companies that are strongly bounded by their compute.[00:24:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I, I would view, I would view AD as more as a market segmentation than like a mission, right?[00:24:37] So the market segmentation is, it has kind of regulatory compliance issues or government, you know, sale or it deals with like hardware. I mean, they're just set up to, to, to, to, to. To diligence those types of companies. So it's a more of a market segmentation thing. I would say the entire firm. You know, which has been since it is been intercepted, you know, has geographical biases, right?[00:24:58] I mean, for the longest time we're like, you [00:25:00] know, bay Area is gonna be like, great, where the majority of the dollars go. Yeah. And, and listen, there, there's actually a lot of compounding effects for having a geographic bias. Right. You know, everybody's in the same place. You've got an ecosystem, you're there, you've got presence, you've got a network.[00:25:12] Um, and, uh, I mean, I would say the Bay area's very much back. You know, like I, I remember during pre COVID, like it was like almost Crypto had kind of. Pulled startups away. Miami from the Bay Area. Miami, yeah. Yeah. New York was, you know, because it's so close to finance, came up like Los Angeles had a moment ‘cause it was so close to consumer, but now it's kind of come back here.[00:25:29] And so I would say, you know, we tend to be very Bay area focused historically, even though of course we've asked all over the world. And then I would say like, if you take the ring out, you know, one more, it's gonna be the US of course, because we know it very well. And then one more is gonna be getting us and its allies and Yeah.[00:25:44] And it goes from there.[00:25:45] Sarah Wang: Yeah,[00:25:45] Martin Casado: sorry.[00:25:46] Sarah Wang: No, no. I agree. I think from a, but I think from the intern that that's sort of like where the companies are headquartered. Maybe your questions on supply chain and customer base. Uh, I, I would say our customers are, are, our companies are fairly international from that perspective.[00:25:59] Like they're selling [00:26:00] globally, right? They have global supply chains in some cases.[00:26:03] Martin Casado: I would say also the stickiness is very different.[00:26:05] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:26:05] Martin Casado: Historically between venture and growth, like there's so much company building in venture, so much so like hiring the next PM. Introducing the customer, like all of that stuff.[00:26:15] Like of course we're just gonna be stronger where we have our network and we've been doing business for 20 years. I've been in the Bay Area for 25 years, so clearly I'm just more effective here than I would be somewhere else. Um, where I think, I think for some of the later stage rounds, the companies don't need that much help.[00:26:30] They're already kind of pretty mature historically, so like they can kind of be everywhere. So there's kind of less of that stickiness. This is different in the AI time. I mean, Sarah is now the, uh, chief of staff of like half the AI companies in, uh, in the Bay Area right now. She's like, ops Ninja Biz, Devrel, BizOps.[00:26:48] swyx: Are, are you, are you finding much AI automation in your work? Like what, what is your stack.[00:26:53] Sarah Wang: Oh my, in my personal stack.[00:26:54] swyx: I mean, because like, uh, by the way, it's the, the, the reason for this is it is triggering, uh, yeah. We, like, I'm hiring [00:27:00] ops, ops people. Um, a lot of ponders I know are also hiring ops people and I'm just, you know, it's opportunity Since you're, you're also like basically helping out with ops with a lot of companies.[00:27:09] What are people doing these days? Because it's still very manual as far as I can tell.[00:27:13] Sarah Wang: Hmm. Yeah. I think the things that we help with are pretty network based, um, in that. It's sort of like, Hey, how do do I shortcut this process? Well, let's connect you to the right person. So there's not quite an AI workflow for that.[00:27:26] I will say as a growth investor, Claude Cowork is pretty interesting. Yeah. Like for the first time, you can actually get one shot data analysis. Right. Which, you know, if you're gonna do a customer database, analyze a cohort retention, right? That's just stuff that you had to do by hand before. And our team, the other, it was like midnight and the three of us were playing with Claude Cowork.[00:27:47] We gave it a raw file. Boom. Perfectly accurate. We checked the numbers. It was amazing. That was my like, aha moment. That sounds so boring. But you know, that's, that's the kind of thing that a growth investor is like, [00:28:00] you know, slaving away on late at night. Um, done in a few seconds.[00:28:03] swyx: Yeah. You gotta wonder what the whole, like, philanthropic labs, which is like their new sort of products studio.[00:28:10] Yeah. What would that be worth as an independent, uh, startup? You know, like a[00:28:14] Martin Casado: lot.[00:28:14] Sarah Wang: Yeah, true.[00:28:16] swyx: Yeah. You[00:28:16] Martin Casado: gotta hand it to them. They've been executing incredibly well.[00:28:19] swyx: Yeah. I, I mean, to me, like, you know, philanthropic, like building on cloud code, I think, uh, it makes sense to me the, the real. Um, pedal to the metal, whatever the, the, the phrase is, is when they start coming after consumer with, uh, against OpenAI and like that is like red alert at Open ai.[00:28:35] Oh, I[00:28:35] Martin Casado: think they've been pretty clear. They're enterprise focused.[00:28:37] swyx: They have been, but like they've been free. Here's[00:28:40] Martin Casado: care publicly,[00:28:40] swyx: it's enterprise focused. It's coding. Right. Yeah.[00:28:43] AI Labs vs Startups: Disruption, Undercutting & the Innovator's Dilemma[00:28:43] swyx: And then, and, but here's cloud, cloud, cowork, and, and here's like, well, we, uh, they, apparently they're running Instagram ads for Claudia.[00:28:50] I, on, you know, for, for people on, I get them all the time. Right. And so, like,[00:28:54] Martin Casado: uh,[00:28:54] swyx: it, it's kind of like this, the disruption thing of, uh, you know. Mo Open has been doing, [00:29:00] consumer been doing the, just pursuing general intelligence in every mo modality, and here's a topic that only focus on this thing, but now they're sort of undercutting and doing the whole innovator's dilemma thing on like everything else.[00:29:11] Martin Casado: It's very[00:29:11] swyx: interesting.[00:29:12] Martin Casado: Yeah, I mean there's, there's a very open que so for me there's like, do you know that meme where there's like the guy in the path and there's like a path this way? There's a path this way. Like one which way Western man. Yeah. Yeah.[00:29:23] Two Futures for AI: Infinite Market vs AGI Oligopoly[00:29:23] Martin Casado: And for me, like, like all the entire industry kind of like hinges on like two potential futures.[00:29:29] So in, in one potential future, um, the market is infinitely large. There's perverse economies of scale. ‘cause as soon as you put a model out there, like it kind of sublimates and all the other models catch up and like, it's just like software's being rewritten and fractured all over the place and there's tons of upside and it just grows.[00:29:48] And then there's another path which is like, well. Maybe these models actually generalize really well, and all you have to do is train them with three times more money. That's all you have to [00:30:00] do, and it'll just consume everything beyond it. And if that's the case, like you end up with basically an oligopoly for everything, like, you know mm-hmm.[00:30:06] Because they're perfectly general and like, so this would be like the, the a GI path would be like, these are perfectly general. They can do everything. And this one is like, this is actually normal software. The universe is complicated. You've got, and nobody knows the answer.[00:30:18] The Economics Reality Check: Gross Margins, Training Costs & Borrowing Against the Future[00:30:18] Martin Casado: My belief is if you actually look at the numbers of these companies, so generally if you look at the numbers of these companies, if you look at like the amount they're making and how much they, they spent training the last model, they're gross margin positive.[00:30:30] You're like, oh, that's really working. But if you look at like. The current training that they're doing for the next model, their gross margin negative. So part of me thinks that a lot of ‘em are kind of borrowing against the future and that's gonna have to slow down. It's gonna catch up to them at some point in time, but we don't really know.[00:30:47] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:30:47] Martin Casado: Does that make sense? Like, I mean, it could be, it could be the case that the only reason this is working is ‘cause they can raise that next round and they can train that next model. ‘cause these models have such a short. Life. And so at some point in time, like, you know, they won't be able to [00:31:00] raise that next round for the next model and then things will kind of converge and fragment again.[00:31:03] But right now it's not.[00:31:04] Sarah Wang: Totally. I think the other, by the way, just, um, a meta point. I think the other lesson from the last three years is, and we talk about this all the time ‘cause we're on this. Twitter X bubble. Um, cool. But, you know, if you go back to, let's say March, 2024, that period, it felt like a, I think an open source model with an, like a, you know, benchmark leading capability was sort of launching on a daily basis at that point.[00:31:27] And, um, and so that, you know, that's one period. Suddenly it's sort of like open source takes over the world. There's gonna be a plethora. It's not an oligopoly, you know, if you fast, you know, if you, if you rewind time even before that GPT-4 was number one for. Nine months, 10 months. It's a long time. Right.[00:31:44] Um, and of course now we're in this era where it feels like an oligopoly, um, maybe some very steady state shifts and, and you know, it could look like this in the future too, but it just, it's so hard to call. And I think the thing that keeps, you know, us up at [00:32:00] night in, in a good way and bad way, is that the capability progress is actually not slowing down.[00:32:06] And so until that happens, right, like you don't know what's gonna look like.[00:32:09] Martin Casado: But I, I would, I would say for sure it's not converged, like for sure, like the systemic capital flows have not converged, meaning right now it's still borrowing against the future to subsidize growth currently, which you can do that for a period of time.[00:32:23] But, but you know, at the end, at some point the market will rationalize that and just nobody knows what that will look like.[00:32:29] Alessio: Yeah.[00:32:29] Martin Casado: Or, or like the drop in price of compute will, will, will save them. Who knows?[00:32:34] Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think the models need to ask them to, to specific tasks. You know? It's like, okay, now Opus 4.5 might be a GI at some specific task, and now you can like depreciate the model over a longer time.[00:32:45] I think now, now, right now there's like no old model.[00:32:47] Martin Casado: No, but let, but lemme just change that mental, that's, that used to be my mental model. Lemme just change it a little bit.[00:32:53] Capital as a Weapon vs Task Saturation: Where Real Enterprise Value Gets Built[00:32:53] Martin Casado: If you can raise three times, if you can raise more than the aggregate of anybody that uses your models, that doesn't even matter.[00:32:59] It doesn't [00:33:00] even matter. See what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Yeah. So, so I have an API Business. My API business is 60% margin, or 70% margin, or 80% margin is a high margin business. So I know what everybody is using. If I can raise more money than the aggregate of everybody that's using it, I will consume them whether I'm a GI or not.[00:33:14] And I will know if they're using it ‘cause they're using it. And like, unlike in the past where engineering stops me from doing that.[00:33:21] Alessio: Mm-hmm.[00:33:21] Martin Casado: It is very straightforward. You just train. So I also thought it was kind of like, you must ask the code a GI, general, general, general. But I think there's also just a possibility that the, that the capital markets will just give them the, the, the ammunition to just go after everybody on top of ‘em.[00:33:36] Sarah Wang: I, I do wonder though, to your point, um, if there's a certain task that. Getting marginally better isn't actually that much better. Like we've asked them to it, to, you know, we can call it a GI or whatever, you know, actually, Ali Goi talks about this, like we're already at a GI for a lot of functions in the enterprise.[00:33:50] Um. That's probably those for those tasks, you probably could build very specific companies that focus on just getting as much value out of that task that isn't [00:34:00] coming from the model itself. There's probably a rich enterprise business to be built there. I mean, could be wrong on that, but there's a lot of interesting examples.[00:34:08] So, right, if you're looking the legal profession or, or whatnot, and maybe that's not a great one ‘cause the models are getting better on that front too, but just something where it's a bit saturated, then the value comes from. Services. It comes from implementation, right? It comes from all these things that actually make it useful to the end customer.[00:34:24] Martin Casado: Sorry, what am I, one more thing I think is, is underused in all of this is like, to what extent every task is a GI complete.[00:34:31] Sarah Wang: Mm-hmm.[00:34:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. I code every day. It's so fun.[00:34:35] Sarah Wang: That's a core question. Yeah.[00:34:36] Martin Casado: And like. When I'm talking to these models, it's not just code. I mean, it's everything, right? Like I, you know, like it's,[00:34:43] swyx: it's healthcare.[00:34:44] It's,[00:34:44] Martin Casado: I mean, it's[00:34:44] swyx: Mele,[00:34:45] Martin Casado: but it's every, it is exactly that. Like, yeah, that's[00:34:47] Sarah Wang: great support. Yeah.[00:34:48] Martin Casado: It's everything. Like I'm asking these models to, yeah, to understand compliance. I'm asking these models to go search the web. I'm asking these models to talk about things I know in the history, like it's having a full conversation with me while I, I engineer, and so it could be [00:35:00] the case that like, mm-hmm.[00:35:01] The most a, you know, a GI complete, like I'm not an a GI guy. Like I think that's, you know, but like the most a GI complete model will is win independent of the task. And we don't know the answer to that one either.[00:35:11] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:12] Martin Casado: But it seems to me that like, listen, codex in my experience is for sure better than Opus 4.5 for coding.[00:35:18] Like it finds the hardest bugs that I work in with. Like, it is, you know. The smartest developers. I don't work on it. It's great. Um, but I think Opus 4.5 is actually very, it's got a great bedside manner and it really, and it, it really matters if you're building something very complex because like, it really, you know, like you're, you're, you're a partner and a brainstorming partner for somebody.[00:35:38] And I think we don't discuss enough how every task kind of has that quality.[00:35:42] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:35:43] Martin Casado: And what does that mean to like capital investment and like frontier models and Submodels? Yeah.[00:35:47] Why “Coding Models” Keep Collapsing into Generalists (Reasoning vs Taste)[00:35:47] Martin Casado: Like what happened to all the special coding models? Like, none of ‘em worked right. So[00:35:51] Alessio: some of them, they didn't even get released.[00:35:53] Magical[00:35:54] Martin Casado: Devrel. There's a whole, there's a whole host. We saw a bunch of them and like there's this whole theory that like, there could be, and [00:36:00] I think one of the conclusions is, is like there's no such thing as a coding model,[00:36:04] Alessio: you know?[00:36:04] Martin Casado: Like, that's not a thing. Like you're talking to another human being and it's, it's good at coding, but like it's gotta be good at everything.[00:36:10] swyx: Uh, minor disagree only because I, I'm pretty like, have pretty high confidence that basically open eye will always release a GPT five and a GT five codex. Like that's the code's. Yeah. The way I call it is one for raisin, one for Tiz. Um, and, and then like someone internal open, it was like, yeah, that's a good way to frame it.[00:36:32] Martin Casado: That's so funny.[00:36:33] swyx: Uh, but maybe it, maybe it collapses down to reason and that's it. It's not like a hundred dimensions doesn't life. Yeah. It's two dimensions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like and exactly. Beside manner versus coding. Yeah.[00:36:43] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:36:44] swyx: It's, yeah.[00:36:46] Martin Casado: I, I think for, for any, it's hilarious. For any, for anybody listening to this for, for, for, I mean, for you, like when, when you're like coding or using these models for something like that.[00:36:52] Like actually just like be aware of how much of the interaction has nothing to do with coding and it just turns out to be a large portion of it. And so like, you're, I [00:37:00] think like, like the best Soto ish model. You know, it is going to remain very important no matter what the task is.[00:37:06] swyx: Yeah.[00:37:07] What He's Actually Coding: Gaussian Splats, Spark.js & 3D Scene Rendering Demos[00:37:07] swyx: Uh, speaking of coding, uh, I, I'm gonna be cheeky and ask like, what actually are you coding?[00:37:11] Because obviously you, you could code anything and you are obviously a busy investor and a manager of the good. Giant team. Um, what are you calling?[00:37:18] Martin Casado: I help, um, uh, FEFA at World Labs. Uh, it's one of the investments and um, and they're building a foundation model that creates 3D scenes.[00:37:27] swyx: Yeah, we had it on the pod.[00:37:28] Yeah. Yeah,[00:37:28] Martin Casado: yeah. And so these 3D scenes are Gaussian splats, just by the way that kind of AI works. And so like, you can reconstruct a scene better with, with, with radiance feels than with meshes. ‘cause like they don't really have topology. So, so they, they, they produce each. Beautiful, you know, 3D rendered scenes that are Gaussian splats, but the actual industry support for Gaussian splats isn't great.[00:37:50] It's just never, you know, it's always been meshes and like, things like unreal use meshes. And so I work on a open source library called Spark js, which is a. Uh, [00:38:00] a JavaScript rendering layer ready for Gaussian splats. And it's just because, you know, um, you, you, you need that support and, and right now there's kind of a three js moment that's all meshes and so like, it's become kind of the default in three Js ecosystem.[00:38:13] As part of that to kind of exercise the library, I just build a whole bunch of cool demos. So if you see me on X, you see like all my demos and all the world building, but all of that is just to exercise this, this library that I work on. ‘cause it's actually a very tough algorithmics problem to actually scale a library that much.[00:38:29] And just so you know, this is ancient history now, but 30 years ago I paid for undergrad, you know, working on game engines in college in the late nineties. So I've got actually a back and it's very old background, but I actually have a background in this and so a lot of it's fun. You know, but, but the, the, the, the whole goal is just for this rendering library to, to,[00:38:47] Sarah Wang: are you one of the most active contributors?[00:38:49] The, their GitHub[00:38:50] Martin Casado: spark? Yes.[00:38:51] Sarah Wang: Yeah, yeah.[00:38:51] Martin Casado: There's only two of us there, so, yes. No, so by the way, so the, the pri The pri, yeah. Yeah. So the primary developer is a [00:39:00] guy named Andres Quist, who's an absolute genius. He and I did our, our PhDs together. And so like, um, we studied for constant Quas together. It was almost like hanging out with an old friend, you know?[00:39:09] And so like. So he, he's the core, core guy. I did mostly kind of, you know, the side I run venture fund.[00:39:14] swyx: It's amazing. Like five years ago you would not have done any of this. And it brought you back[00:39:19] Martin Casado: the act, the Activ energy, you're still back. Energy was so high because you had to learn all the framework b******t.[00:39:23] Man, I f*****g used to hate that. And so like, now I don't have to deal with that. I can like focus on the algorithmics so I can focus on the scaling and I,[00:39:29] swyx: yeah. Yeah.[00:39:29] LLMs vs Spatial Intelligence + How to Value World Labs' 3D Foundation Model[00:39:29] swyx: And then, uh, I'll observe one irony and then I'll ask a serious investor question, uh, which is like, the irony is FFE actually doesn't believe that LMS can lead us to spatial intelligence.[00:39:37] And here you are using LMS to like help like achieve spatial intelligence. I just see, I see some like disconnect in there.[00:39:45] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think, you know, I think, I think what she would say is LLMs are great to help with coding.[00:39:51] swyx: Yes.[00:39:51] Martin Casado: But like, that's very different than a model that actually like provides, they, they'll never have the[00:39:56] swyx: spatial inte[00:39:56] Martin Casado: issues.[00:39:56] And listen, our brains clearly listen, our brains, brains clearly have [00:40:00] both our, our brains clearly have a language reasoning section and they clearly have a spatial reasoning section. I mean, it's just, you know, these are two pretty independent problems.[00:40:07] swyx: Okay. And you, you, like, I, I would say that the, the one data point I recently had, uh, against it is the DeepMind, uh, IMO Gold, where, so, uh, typically the, the typical answer is that this is where you start going down the neuros symbolic path, right?[00:40:21] Like one, uh, sort of very sort of abstract reasoning thing and one form, formal thing. Um, and that's what. DeepMind had in 2024 with alpha proof, alpha geometry, and now they just use deep think and just extended thinking tokens. And it's one model and it's, and it's in LM.[00:40:36] Martin Casado: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:40:37] swyx: And so that, that was my indication of like, maybe you don't need a separate system.[00:40:42] Martin Casado: Yeah. So, so let me step back. I mean, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, these things are like nodes in a graph with weights on them. Right. You know, like it can be modeled like if you, if you distill it down. But let me just talk about the two different substrates. Let's, let me put you in a dark room.[00:40:56] Like totally black room. And then let me just [00:41:00] describe how you exit it. Like to your left, there's a table like duck below this thing, right? I mean like the chances that you're gonna like not run into something are very low. Now let me like turn on the light and you actually see, and you can do distance and you know how far something away is and like where it is or whatever.[00:41:17] Then you can do it, right? Like language is not the right primitives to describe. The universe because it's not exact enough. So that's all Faye, Faye is talking about. When it comes to like spatial reasoning, it's like you actually have to know that this is three feet far, like that far away. It is curved.[00:41:37] You have to understand, you know, the, like the actual movement through space.[00:41:40] swyx: Yeah.[00:41:40] Martin Casado: So I do, I listen, I do think at the end of these models are definitely converging as far as models, but there's, there's, there's different representations of problems you're solving. One is language. Which, you know, that would be like describing to somebody like what to do.[00:41:51] And the other one is actually just showing them and the space reasoning is just showing them.[00:41:55] swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Got it, got it. Uh, the, in the investor question was on, on, well labs [00:42:00] is, well, like, how do I value something like this? What, what, what work does the, do you do? I'm just like, Fefe is awesome.[00:42:07] Justin's awesome. And you know, the other two co-founder, co-founders, but like the, the, the tech, everyone's building cool tech. But like, what's the value of the tech? And this is the fundamental question[00:42:16] Martin Casado: of, well, let, let, just like these, let me just maybe give you a rough sketch on the diffusion models. I actually love to hear Sarah because I'm a venture for, you know, so like, ventures always, always like kind of wild west type[00:42:24] swyx: stuff.[00:42:24] You, you, you, you paid a dream and she has to like, actually[00:42:28] Martin Casado: I'm gonna say I'm gonna mar to reality, so I'm gonna say the venture for you. And she can be like, okay, you a little kid. Yeah. So like, so, so these diffusion models literally. Create something for, for almost nothing. And something that the, the world has found to be very valuable in the past, in our real markets, right?[00:42:45] Like, like a 2D image. I mean, that's been an entire market. People value them. It takes a human being a long time to create it, right? I mean, to create a, you know, a, to turn me into a whatever, like an image would cost a hundred bucks in an hour. The inference cost [00:43:00] us a hundredth of a penny, right? So we've seen this with speech in very successful companies.[00:43:03] We've seen this with 2D image. We've seen this with movies. Right? Now, think about 3D scene. I mean, I mean, when's Grand Theft Auto coming out? It's been six, what? It's been 10 years. I mean, how, how like, but hasn't been 10 years.[00:43:14] Alessio: Yeah.[00:43:15] Martin Casado: How much would it cost to like, to reproduce this room in 3D? Right. If you, if you, if you hired somebody on fiber, like in, in any sort of quality, probably 4,000 to $10,000.[00:43:24] And then if you had a professional, probably $30,000. So if you could generate the exact same thing from a 2D image, and we know that these are used and they're using Unreal and they're using Blend, or they're using movies and they're using video games and they're using all. So if you could do that for.[00:43:36] You know, less than a dollar, that's four or five orders of magnitude cheaper. So you're bringing the marginal cost of something that's useful down by three orders of magnitude, which historically have created very large companies. So that would be like the venture kind of strategic dreaming map.[00:43:49] swyx: Yeah.[00:43:50] And, and for listeners, uh, you can do this yourself on your, on your own phone with like. Uh, the marble.[00:43:55] Martin Casado: Yeah. Marble.[00:43:55] swyx: Uh, or but also there's many Nerf apps where you just go on your iPhone and, and do this.[00:43:59] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:00] Yeah. And, and in the case of marble though, it would, what you do is you literally give it in.[00:44:03] So most Nerf apps you like kind of run around and take a whole bunch of pictures and then you kind of reconstruct it.[00:44:08] swyx: Yeah.[00:44:08] Martin Casado: Um, things like marble, just that the whole generative 3D space will just take a 2D image and it'll reconstruct all the like, like[00:44:16] swyx: meaning it has to fill in. Uh,[00:44:18] Martin Casado: stuff at the back of the table, under the table, the back, like, like the images, it doesn't see.[00:44:22] So the generator stuff is very different than reconstruction that it fills in the things that you can't see.[00:44:26] swyx: Yeah. Okay.[00:44:26] Sarah Wang: So,[00:44:27] Martin Casado: all right. So now the,[00:44:28] Sarah Wang: no, no. I mean I love that[00:44:29] Martin Casado: the adult[00:44:29] Sarah Wang: perspective. Um, well, no, I was gonna say these are very much a tag team. So we, we started this pod with that, um, premise. And I think this is a perfect question to even build on that further.[00:44:36] ‘cause it truly is, I mean, we're tag teaming all of these together.[00:44:39] Investing in Model Labs, Media Rumors, and the Cursor Playbook (Margins & Going Down-Stack)[00:44:39] Sarah Wang: Um, but I think every investment fundamentally starts with the same. Maybe the same two premises. One is, at this point in time, we actually believe that there are. And of one founders for their particular craft, and they have to be demonstrated in their prior careers, right?[00:44:56] So, uh, we're not investing in every, you know, now the term is NEO [00:45:00] lab, but every foundation model, uh, any, any company, any founder trying to build a foundation model, we're not, um, contrary to popular opinion, we're

The AI arms race is getting ugly. With top talent bouncing between Thinking Machines and OpenAI, the guys debate a critical question for every leader: Is loyalty dead, or has Silicon Valley just stopped pretending? Sam, Asad, and AJ discuss the ethics and dangers of the "secure the bag" mindset and what it means for building enduring companies. They also pivot to the tactical side of leadership, breaking down why most managers wait too long to fire and the hard truth that "what you allow, you encourage." Key topics: The Thinking Machines exodus: Performance issues or corporate sabotage? Do ethics actually matter when the prize is AGI? The one management mantra every GTM leader needs for a high performing team Quitting the content hamster wheel: The hosts' priorities for the next chapter.   Thanks for tuning in! Catch new episodes every Sunday Subscribe to Topline Newsletter. Tune into Topline Podcast, the #1 podcast for founders, operators, and investors in B2B tech. Join the free Topline Slack channel to connect with 600+ revenue leaders to keep the conversation going beyond the podcast!   Chapters: 00:00 Intro: Top Line, Pavilion Gold, and Today's Agenda 02:28 The Thinking Machines Exodus and OpenAI's Hiring Spree 08:08 Capital Incentives: Why Tech Talent Has Become Mercenary 14:03 The Core Debate: Do Values Matter in Modern Tech? 18:41 The "Get the Bag" Mentality vs. Building Forever Companies 23:00 The Risks of Accelerating into a Future Without Ethics 31:28 Impact on GTM: Shorter Tenures and Transactional Hiring 34:25 Why Swiftly Correcting Underperformance is an Act of Loyalty 45:00 Why Organizational Values Are Useless Without Defined Behaviors 01:00:38 Final Question: What Are You Under-Prioritizing for 2026?  

AGENDA: 03:30 Can VC Survive With Public Market Prices Today 15:20 The Implosion of Thinking Machines 21:13 Elon Musk vs. OpenAI: The Legal Battle 40:50 Can OpenAI Win Ads? 55:50 ClickHouse's $15BN Deal: Analysed 58:55 Replit's $9BN Deal: Analysed 01:08:35 There Are Only Two Types of Deals VCs Want To Do Today      

Ads are finally coming to ChatGPT. Why everyone online can't stop talking about going on Claude benders. Elon's case against OpenAI moves forward again. The Thinking Machines saga roils on again. And the big movie about AI every is apparently watching. OpenAI brings advertising to ChatGPT in push for new revenue (FT) OpenAI's Revenue Soars Past $20 Billion After 233% Jump—But Explosive Growth Comes With Massive Compute Costs And A $17 Billion Burn Rate (Benzinga) Claude Is Taking the AI World by Storm, and Even Non-Nerds Are Blown Away (WSJ) ‘No Reasons to Own': Software Stocks Sink on Fear of New AI Tool (Bloomberg) Musk Seeks Up to $134 Billion Damages From OpenAI, Microsoft (Bloomberg) Thinking Machines Exodus Tests Investor Appetite for a $50 Billion Valuation (The Information) There's a Hit Movie Set Deep Inside an AI Lab—and It Will Give You Goosebumps (WSJ) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

More fallout from the Thinking Machines stuff. I'm officially calling it: I think the Metaverse is over, at least at Meta. Cloudflare continues to make an effort to protect the web and creators from AI strip mining. And, of course, the weekend longreads suggestions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. We cover: 1) Gemini's case as undisputed AI leader 2) Google and Apple ink a deal for Gemini to fix Siri 3) Is all this AI going to hurt Google's business model? 4) Who will be better at AI ads: Google or OpenAI? 5) Google Gemini's Personal Intelligence 6) Exits at Thinking Machines Lab 7) Is Thinking Machines toast? 8) Claude work arrives! It's Claude Code for non-coders 9) Are we in the age of the empowered individual? 10) Harness Hive stand up! --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack + Discord? Here's 25% off for the first year: https://www.bigtechnology.com/subscribe?coupon=0843016b Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices