Metamodern Spirituality

I'm joined by professor Gary Cziko, author of Without Miracles: Universal Selection Theory and the Second Darwinian Revolution, to discuss the universal learning process driving adaptive complexification across cosmic scales. We get into the issue of "puzzles of fit" and how they've tended to be accounted for, the scope and power of selectionist theories for understanding evolution and knowledge generation, and relationships of the theory to a number of important topics, including how we make meaning in life. 0:00 Introduction2:22 Puzzles of Fit and Universal Selection Theory8:55 A Metatheory for Meaningful Knowledge Generation16:23 The Universe Learning, & Learning How It Learns23:02 Transcending Constraints of Knowledge Structures31:22 History of the Theory40:31 Adjusting Experience for Meaning47:17 Piaget and Universal Selection Theory55:52 Hegel?57:08 The Miracle 'Without Miracles'59:44 The Existential Basis of Purpose1:06:27 Conclusion To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Oliver Griebel joins me to discuss the topic of the anthology he edited on the metaphysical relationship between the one and the many. To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Evolutionary spirituality writer Tim Freke joins me for a live Limicon event to discuss his take on the new form of spirituality emerging in metamodern culture. We explore a few topics together, then open the conversation up for Q&A from the rest of the attendees. Evolution, consciousness, death, mysticism--it's a good ride! To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Tony Wolf joins me to discuss his new book out from Sky Meadow Press: 'Poetic Faiths: New Religions and Rituals as Works of Living Art, Vol I.' First we tackle the idea of "Poetic Faiths" and what they are before going over what's in this new anthology of interviews with creators of such Poetic Faiths. Tony shares part of his story that led him to this work as well as some of the specifics of his own Poetic Faith, The Mysterium. Finally, we consider the significance and future of this form of spirituality. 0:00 Introduction2:02 What is a "Poetic Faith"?15:13 The Anthology18:53 Poetic Faiths and Metamodern Religion23:04 Tony's Story: The First of The Three Moments31:09 Tony's Poetic Faith: The Mysterium38:51 Mindful Ritual and Serious Symbols44:02 A Mycelial Network of New Faiths54:42 The Roles for Creators1:10:39 Conclusion To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Cheryl Armon joins me to talk about her work in the field of developmental psychology. After discussing how she developed a passion for moral philosophy, entered the field, and met Lawrence Kohlberg, as well as the important theoretical distinctions between "hard" stages and "soft" stage models which they published about, we dive into the data Armon has amassed over her career on how people's conceptions of "The Good" complexify across the lifespan. 0:00 Introduction3:07 Cheryl's Path to Developmental Studies11:30 Studying Complexification of the True, the Good, and the Beautiful17:15 Meeting Kohlberg22:16 The "Right" vs. the "Good"28:07 Asking People about the Good30:57 Hard Stage Models vs. Other Kinds38:24 Are There Domain-General Stages?Stages of the Good43:16 Stage 1. Egoistic Hedonism47:36 Stage 2. Instrumental Hedonism50:11 Stage 3. Altruistic Mutuality59:17 Stage 4. Individuality 1:10:07 Stage 5. Autonomy/Interdependence1:17:42 The Complexification of Value1:19:47 Doing the Work Right1:23:50 Taking Adult Developmental Reasoning Seriously1:30:37 ConclusionSOURCESCheryl Armon, "Ideals of the Good Life: A Longitudinal/Cross-Sectional Study of Evaluative Reasoning in Children and Adults." PhD Dissertation, Harvard University, 1984.Cheryl Armon, "Ideals of the Good Life and Moral Judgment: Ethical Reasoning across the Lifespan," in Beyond Formal Operations, ed. Michael L. Commons, Francis A. Richards, and Cheryl Armon (New York: Praeger, 1984), 357–380.Cheryl Armon and Theo Linda Dawson, "The Good Life: A Longitudinal Study of Adult Reasoning," in Handbook of Adult Development, ed. Jack Demick and Carrie Andreoletti (New York: Kluwer Academic, 2003), 271–300. To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Zak Stein joins me in a constructive discussion about our respective projects to reconstruct value after postmodernism. Having talked to Zak about his work with David J Temple, this time he responds to my work in the first volume of the Evolution of Meaning Series. Here we explore in greater detail his concerns about projects that would situate human cultural evolution within the broader cosmic evolutionary process more generally. How do we avoid reducing the human in the process? How do we properly understand what uniquely delineates human cultural processes from animal ones? What is the proper role of science in all of this?0:00 Introduction2:24 Irreducible Humanity: Continuity and Discontinuity15:34 The Role of the Philosopher: Translating the Sciences for Human Meaning20:34 Situating the Insights of Modern Science: Integrating Postmodern Critiques35:46 Interior vs. Exterior Accounts29:37 Metaphysics and Methodology: Religion or Radical Empiricism?41:58 Intersubjectivity and Universal Pragmatics1:04:30 Science after Postmodernism To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Layman joins me for further jamming on the human/biosphere relationship. We explore the idea of entropy reduction (negentropy) as a natural trajectory and its relationship to the evolution of consciousness. Folding in Nietzsche, we consider the "will to power" in terms of a natural drive related to such processes before turning to the "mereological question": Is humanity (the noosphere) part of the biosphere or is the biosphere part of the noosphere? This leads to further considerations of the unique human contribution to biospheric dynamics, and the question of anthropocentrism in how we frame such relationships. 0:00 Introduction1:28 Nature and Negentropy14:44 Towards a Qualitative Typology of Negentropic Systems25:00 A Natural Direction: The Role of Consciousness and Care35:41 Decentration and Ecologization 41:16 Negentropy and the Will to Power57:35 Mereology and Mutual Transformation 1:11:29 Art and Nature1:21:16 An Appetition for Noospheric Mapping1:39:44 Anthropocentrism and the Human Perspective1:57:43 Conclusion To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Cognitive scientist Anna Riedl helps me get a sense of the emerging paradigm in cogsci and beyond dedicated to understanding how we make meaning in an uncertain and entropic world. After that, we tackle ideas Anna is working on informed by her experience with and critique of effective altruism: a framework she provisionally calls "autopoiethics," which relates to the normative decision-making processes of autopoetic systems.0:00 IntroductionI. State of the Art in Meaning Studies1:22 Meaning, Relevance, and Rationality 11:28 Synthesizing Abstract and Particular 21:56 Metarationality and the Transjective Frame30:03 A New Paradigm?40:41 Related Fields and ThinkersII. Autopoethics52:11 Normativity and Collective Welfare57:06 Autopoietic Normativity vs. Effective Altruism1:15:05 Perspectival Values1:26:50 Function vs. Process1:31:44 Conclusion To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Here, Lene Rachel Andersen joins us to talk about her piece Polymodern Economics. Following the publication of the first issue of Metamodern Theory & Praxis, a new, anti-disciplinary journal dedicated to movements in metamodern thought, we will be inviting the various contributors for some discussion about their work.You can read this and the other works in issue 1 here: https://sts.williams.edu/metamodern/v1i1/ To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

On Saturday, January 18, Sky Meadow Institute hosted a virtual meet-up and open Q&A with Tim Freke, author of Soul Story and a leading thinker in the emergent spirituality space. For more upcoming events, check out skymeadowinstitute.org To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Layman and I dig into the distinctions between similar terms like "nature," "natural," "naturalization," and "natural order" in an effort to better realize the relevant shades of the biosphere.0:00 Introduction2:56 'Nature' vs.19:36 'Natural' vs. 40:41 'Naturalization' vs.1:08:39 'Natural Order' vs...1:25:03 Conclusion To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

I continue my discussion with Layman Pascal about the role of the human in/as/and for the biosphere. After an elegant summary and recap of the topic so far, Layman offers thoughts on specific roles and projects that might be undetaken through collective action to traverse along the negentropic course of the "ecodrome." We chat economics, ideology, ethics, and religion, and also tackle the question of biosphereic consciousness. 0:00 Introduction2:03 Layman's Recap: Sacred Naturalism and the "Ecodrome"18:26 Gaian Demography I: Eco-Heirophants23:30 Civics: Green Mobilization Efforts25:52 Economics: Negentropy as Currency35:03 Ideology: A Post-Neoliberal Spirit of Eco-Cultus43:59 Lower- to Mid-Scale Enaction47:49 The Ethics of Biosphere Extension and Reproduction1:03:53 Gaian Demography II: Roles and Tribes1:21:42 Waking Gaia1:34:44 Religion: A Planetary Devotion1:40:20 Looking Ahead To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

In the first of a series of discussions, Layman Pascal offers his thoughts on the role of humanity in the biosphere. What new ways are there for appreciating our place on/as the planet and in/as the cosmos? Here we focus primarily on the role of the individual in biospheric processes. How do religion-like activities and sensibilities serve ecological viability and flourishing? How can this vision unite various approaches to value and knowledge in the 21st century? Timeline:0:00 Introduction 3:16 The Role of the Human in, for, and as the Biosphere 7:48 A Biophilic Universe 14:51 A Comprehensive Story for Our Time 23:30 Nurturing Nature 27:28 Minds and Societies as Systems of Gaia 38:42 Contingency and Teleology, Problems and Progress 44:22 Religionizing Eco-Consciousness: Promise and Pathology 1:04:09 Psychotechnologies and the Biosphere 1:14:08 The Center of the Mandala 1:20:38 Moving out of Flatland To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Following the publication of the first issue of Metamodern Theory & Praxis, a new, anti-disciplinary journal dedicated to movements in metamodern thought, we will be inviting the various contributors for some discussion about their work.Here, Jared Morningstar joins us to talk about his piece A Metamodern Paradigm for Islamic Studies Scholarship: Evaluating and Extending Shahab Ahmed's Theorization of Islam and the Islamic.You can read this and the other works in issue 1 here: https://sts.williams.edu/metamodern/v1i1/. To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

James Cussen of @TheLivingPhilosophy joins me to discuss his probing 6-part critique of what "metamodernism" really is. We go deep into the strands of metamodern theory and discourse to debate the relative merits and demerits of various approaches to the topic. Along the way, we both explore various ways to clarify and nuance topics and ideas core to various metamodern projects.0:00 Introduction (and Name Change)3:29 Pulling the Thread8:23 Trend, Period, Episteme, Logic?26:35 The Problems of Stage Theories56:37 Who's Afraid of 'Postmodernism'?1:14:37 What the Hell is 'Modernity'?1:36:24 Culture and Complexity1:59:25 Telling the Story of our Stories You can read James's critique here: https://www.thelivingphilosophy.com/p/metamodernism-critique-introduction To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Jim Palmer joins me to talk about his work in "deconstructionology." After sharing a bit of his story, which includes movement from mega-church pastor to questioning Christian seeker to deconstructioning writer, Jim talks to me a bit about his ideas of engaging religion generally and Christianity specifically beyond superficial either/or thinking.How do we move past simple binaries of theism/atheism, for example, or different kinds of ideology? What container is expansive enough to hold religious questioning without simply leading to a) a lateral move or b) unmoored relativism?Timestamps:What might a God on the other side of deconstruction look like? 0:00Introduction 1:36Jim's Story 14:04Deconstruction Therapeutics 23:44Metamodernism and Reconstruction 30:56Towards Existential Health 36:29Between Binaries 52:41A Truly Human Jesus, and a Truly Divine Humanity 1:01:09Liberating Knowledge 1:05:38A God on the Other Side of Deconstruction Jim's Substack can be found here: https://jimpalmerauthor.substack.com/ To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

Jason Ānanda Josephson Storm and I announce the launch of the new academic journal for metamodern studies: Metamodern Theory & Praxis. The journal is open access and free to read online here: https://sts.williams.edu/metamodern/v1i1/ Print versions are also available for purchase. To hear more, visit brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com

After the re-election of Donald Trump to the Presidency of the United States last night, I check in with Layman Pascal to get his take on the political landscape. What can we learn from what's going on? How can we be more open across differences instead of closed and blaming? In fact, how much internal energy should we expend on such matters at all? And what should we expect about the future of the public sphere that might help us better orient to what matters most? 0:00 Introduction 3:27 Surface vs. Structure 10:08 What Can We Learn from the Trump Moment? 14:11 Placing Blame 20:44 Valuing Nonrational Collective Intelligence 26:46 Failures of the Democratic Left 33:26 It Matters, and It Doesn't 39:53 What Does a Progressive Revolution Look Like? 48:47 Towards a Metamodern Politics of Spectacle 1:00:41 A Future of Astonishments 1:13:33 The Coming Carnival of the Public Sphere 1:17:52 Approaches to Media Consumption 1:22:26 Finding Equanimity anf Value in Disruption 1:25:35 Conclusion

I'm joined by Doug Scott, LCSW, to discuss his SH!PS approach to interpersonal transformation and development. Doug is a clinical social worker with a background in ministry and has worked as a mental health counselor since 2001. Here we discuss the common pattern Doug has abstracted from his counseling and pastoral experience for achieving growth and connection, uniting spiritual and mental health perspectives. 0:00 Introduction 1:26 Doug's Story 6:47 A Praxis for Development and Transformation The SH!PS Approach 12:18 (I)nterview: Perspective-Taking 21:32 (S)olidarity: We're All in this Together 27:27 (H)ope: Cultivating Aspirational Purpose 56:55 (P)rocess: Honoring the Way Things Become 1:03:22 (S)ervice: How to Human Better 1:11:24 Conclusion

Gregg Henriques and I talk about the release of his new book UTOK: The Unified Theory of Knowledge through Sky Meadow Press. We discuss how this book is different from other works Gregg has written, its aesthetic nod to the classic alchemical tradition, and the arc of his journey from hard-nosed materialism to metamodern metatheoretical mythopoeia. We talk about UTOK through the lens of personal mythology and religio and the grand takeaway about the nature of meaning and the sacred from such a system. The book is available at https://www.skymeadowinstitute.org/press 0:00 Introduction 0:28 UTOK: The Unified Theory of Knowledge Published by Sky Meadow Press 2:56 An Accessible, Aesthetic Primer for UTOK 6:32 Big Picture Thinking and Metamodern Alchemy 16:27 From Modern Materialist Reductionism to Metamodern Emergent Mythos 22:20 Life and Calling: Personal Myth and "Building the Cathedral" 27:08 Avoiding the Pitfalls of Imaginal/Archetypal Projects 34:10 Relating to Meaning and the Sacred 38:32 Mythos and Logos: Waking up to a New Worldview 44:21 Ritual and Praxis in a Time Between Worlds 48:07 UTOK as Framework for Religio 50:44 Mythopoeia admidst the Desire for Tradition 56:46 UTOK...? So What? The Miracle of Self Knowing the World 1:07:09 Conclusion

Process thinker Matt Segall joins me again to continue our ongoing metaphysical exploration of a panmatheistic universe coming to self-knowledge. Here we discuss modern science's "blind spot" with regard to direct experience vs. scientific abstraction and the problem of "misplaced concreteness" before considering the proper understanding of the role of the human in the cosmos. 0:00 Introduction 2:02 "The Blind Spot": Mistaking Scientific Models for Reality 12:59 The Limits of Abstraction: From Idea to Feeling 34:18 Learning as Movement from Concrete to Abstract 46:00 Quantum Mechanics, Misplaced Concreteness, and Conceptual Prehension 58:16 The Will of the Universe to Wake Up: Towards Anthropos + Christ 1:11:03 Towards a 360° Platonism 1:20:50 Art, Incarnation, and the Face of God 1:33:09 Next Questions

Rafe Kelley and I discuss his recent transformational experiences with Christianity, then consider the best sense-making frames for such life-altering religious experiences. What are the role of Christianity's traditional propositional claims relative to direct experiential encounters with the Christ archetype? Can the activation of transformational memetic archetypes actually require acting "as if" some false claims are true? 0:00 Introduction 2:06 Character: Who Do You Want to Be? 7:08 Rafe's Background 30:35 The Christian Lure in the West 49:56 Mythos and Logos 1:03:25 Rafe's Conversion 1:16:45 Experience vs. Theology 1:26:17 Faith and the Transhistorical 1:39:22 Toggling into the Christ Archetype 1:47:17 Metamemes, Consciousness, and Believing "As If" 1:57:18 Building the Cathedral 2:03:58 Conclusion

Neil Theise joins me to talk about his book Notes on Complexity: A Scientific Theory of Connection, Consciousness, and Being. As a liver pathologist gazing daily through his microscope, Neil lives in an ongoing liminal state between scales: the micro cellular and the macro organismic. How is it, he asks, that any given "thing" seems to disappear when you zoom in or out? Neil brings a complexity science lens to this issue of lensing, which he synthesizes with his longterm practice of Zen meditation to interesting conclusions. Is this processual "no-thing-ness" what the Buddhists speak of as "emptiness"? What is the "I" if it can be similarly deconstructed? What insights can meditation add to the metaphysical picture once we appreciate the limits of other ways of knowing? 0:00 Introduction 0:57 Spark-'Notes on Complexity' 4:30 Neil's Interdisciplinary Background 14:33 Body or Cells? Scale, Process, and (Relative) No-Thing-ness 40:29 "Self" and Complimentarity 50:03 Self and the Limits of Science: Consciousness and Quantum Physics 56:24 Self and the Limits of Mathematics: Incompleteness and Intuition 1:08:45 Can Meditative Practice Reveal Metaphysical Realities? 1:26:51 No Separation

Philosopher and author Tim Freke joins me to talk about his conceptions of an "emergent spirituality." We discuss his 2017 book Soul Story, in which he lays out a vision for a developing cosmos leading to deeper self-realization. From there we discuss his thinking about the continuation of imaginal phenomena after the biological death of the individual. 0:00 Introduction 1:22 Soul Story and Emergent Spirituality 8:56 Is Consciousness Fundamental? Tim's Recent Move to Emergentism 9:25 card to Tim's video on emergentism of consciousness 19:59 The Profound Meaning within Emergentism 26:02 Psyche after Death? 36:11 Imaginal Information in an Inforverse 48:52 God as Real Dream: Temporal Holonic Emergence 56:57 Soul and the Redemption of Suffering 1:01:34 A New Understanding 1:05:57 Praxis: "Why Your Life Really Matters" 1:11:30 Conclusion

Layman Pascal joins me to discuss his new book, Gurdjieff for a Time Between Worlds. Who was G. I. Gurdjieff and why is he keenly relevant to our present metamodern moment? In what ways can we see in his work anticipations of contemporary spiritual modalities, such as sincere irony, integration of pluralities, immanent transcendence, and the mythopoeic construction of new imaginal narratives gesturing beyond modernity? With classic flare and verbal acuity, Layman unpacks his "hyperpersonal essays for the grandfather of metamodern spirituality." 0:00 Introduction 1:38 Who was G. I. Gurdjieff? 5:21 Gurdjieff and Metamodernity 9:29 "The Sly Man": Serious Play, Sincere Irony, Crazy Wisdom 20:04 Integrating Pluralities 31:04 Gurdjieff the Shamanoid 36:51 Real vs. Imaginal Mythos 51:35 Eso-, Meso-, Exo-teric 56:31 Pascal's Imaginal Gurdjieff? 1:05:25 Transcendent Immanence Get the book here: https://www.skymeadowinstitute.org/press

Catechism has meant "religious education," especially as a coming-of-age initiation into the fullness of spiritual community and engagement with its mysteries. It has to do with what sort of support and instruction young people and converts receive about their faith as they move into deeper spiritual relationship with God and church. Here I ask, What would a supportive catechism look like for Christians on the path towards a metamodern form of faith? How might religious learning unfold in healthy and sustainable ways such as would foster a kind of Christianity that is truly metamodern in outlook? What are the right developmental moments for literalism, doubt, even atheism, and conviction? 0:00 An Education for Faith 1:55 Grades or Phases of Spiritual Learning 4:32 Age 0-7*: Childhood Enchantment 9:20 Age 7-10: Mythic Literalism 15:12 Age 10-13: Symbolic Belief 21:03 Age 13-15: Reflective Religion 26:24 Age 15-18: Rational Meaning-Making 29:28 Age 18-23: Deconstructive Questioning 41:33 Age 23-27: Integrative Wisdom 50:13 What's Missing? 54:13 Invitation to Keep Learning *All ages are just rough approximations

Who is the Christ of faith? What if he is the telos of existence itself? the direction to which all of thought and action tend? What if Christ Consciousness is the goal of a more comprehensive, open, de-centered, contextualized, and other-sensitive perspective? What if we (you and me) actually participate in the unfolding of God in the world?... 0:00 "After Deconstruction Must Come Reconstruction" 6:34 Metamodernism and Relating to the Christ of Faith 9:18 Moving Beyond Postmodern Relativistic Perspectivalism 19:43 Metamodernism: Seeing the Pattern of Perspectives 34:28 Christ as the Aim of Sacred History 48:13 "Christ" as Expanding Consciousness 54:10 Idols vs. Icons: The Death and Resurrection of "God" 1:00:19 Metamodern Informed Naivete 1:03:07 Forking the Lightning of God

To get beyond the enduring impasse of the "science vs. religion" debate, let's give science its due—and then leave it in the dust! There's no need to affirm the historical basis of the Christian story to relate to the Christ of faith. If we can accept that the Gospels are prehistorical materials, we can get beyond the classic hangups and begin to see how "it's all made up" AND "it's all real!" are both true simultaneously. Here I frame the current debates around history and religion in light of the "pre/trans fallacy" so well described by integral theory. This framing, I think, helps position us to appreciate what a truly metamodern Christianity can look like. By accepting the historical Jesus account, we are freed to embrace the Christ of faith and tradition—not in spite of the facts, but because we have transcended them. 0:00 Introduction 2:01 Moving Beyond History 4:20 The Pre/Trans Fallacy 8:31 "Trans-" Demonstrates Capacity and Transformation 13:56 The Gospels and the History of History 21:05 Christianity and the Fallacy of Origins 24:38 Transcending the Claims History Makes on Us 39:11 Cultural Metamodernism and the Transhistorical 46:41 Owning Deconstruction without Equivocation 54:41 The Growth Edge of Christianity 56:31 Conclusion

Does the modern historical-critical lens on the Bible reject miracles on principle and thereby exclude in advance what it presupposes not to be true? Here I counter this critique by explaining how the miracles in the Gospels are problematized not by metaphysical prejudice but historical analysis. Taking the miracles in the Gospels at face value as historical events is problematic even if we work within a metaphysical frame that allows for miracles. Ultimately, it's a matter of historical reconstruction, not worldview, that forces us to rethink how much of the materials can be taken as reliable accounts of "what happened." 0:00 Does Modern Historical-Critical Scholarship Preclude Miracles on Principle? 2:23 A Metamodern Christianity Needs the Modern 3:59 Anti-Miracle Modernism: Steelmanning that Argument (Even Though It's Not Mine) 9:37 The Argument I Am Making: More Information Problematizes Naive Readings 13:09 Setting the Stage: Messianic Expectation and Prophecy Fulfilment Assessing Miracle Accounts in Light of the Historical Context 17:07 1. Jesus' Birth 29:15 2. Jesus' Calming of the Storm 36:00 3. Jesus' Crucifixion 39:38 4. Jesus' Resurrection 41:38 5. Jesus' Ascension 44:15 Other Historical Considerations 53:50 "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?" Misses the Point Entirely 58:10 Meta-Naturalism: Appreciating an Incomplete Scientific Paradigm 1:03:28 Metamodern Christianity Should Be Robust and Include the Modern Lens 1:06:38 Metamodern Christianity: Informed Naivete and Truth in Development 1:09:50 Conclusion

In this episode, I offer my own take on the "God Pivot" towards Christianity in the Intellectual Dark Web and adjacent communities (e.g., the liminal web, "This Corner of the Internet," and beyond). Reflecting on my recent interview with Jordan Hall, I see something glaringly absent from the broader conversation: the modern historical-critical perspective. Therefore, I ask: 1) How does the Traditional-Devotional perspective differ from the Modern Historical-Critical one with regard to the Old and New Testaments? 2) What might a metamodern Christianity look like that could successfully and syngergistically toggle between these different lenses to yield something progressive and robust? 0:00 Introduction 4:40 Hermeneutic Lenses: The Traditional-Devotional and Modern Historical-Critical Perspectives 7:46 Old Testament: Traditional-Devotional 13:13 Old Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 32:01 New Testament: Traditional-Devotional 37:53 New Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 47:58 Implications and Synthesis

Complexity scientist David Wolpert joins me to consider the idea of meaning at its most fundamental level. Historically, information theory has helped us quantify information (e.g., bits), but says nothing about the ways information might be useful, significant, relevant, or meaningful. Recently, however, Wolpert and colleagues have filled in what's missing from that account, offering a theory of "semantic" or "meaningful" information by showing how some information actually has causal power to influence the well-being and viability of systems in context. Here we explore this idea and a number of its implications for what's "meaningful" across the complexity stack, from a whirlpool to a bacterium all the way up to us. 0:00 Introduction 0:46 Meaning and Semantic Information 2:17 Background Context: Information Theory, Utility Functions, and Statistical Thermodynamics 14:03 Meaning FOR a System: What Information Helps One Stay Far from Equilibrium 21:54 Meaning: Mutual Information with Causal Power for Viability 27:57 Meaning and Meaurement up the Complexity Stack 33:42 Indirect Meaning, Chains of Significance, and Intelligence 37:20 A Semantic Information Theory of Individuality? 42:03 Relative vs. Absolute Semantic Information Metrics 49:52 The Complexification of Meaningful Information through Evolutionary Transitions 52:30 Layered Meaning through Evolution

Philosopher Zak Stein joins me to discuss the "the great post-postmodern project, the reconstruction of value itself," and get into the nuances of what his framework looks like as presented in his new co-authored book First Principles & First Values. What does it mean to say that value is both fundamental and relational? How does a metaphysics of value avoid premodern pitfalls (e.g., the myth of the given, a God's-eye view/view from nowhere, etc.)? What are the challenges posed by language when trying to track value across discontinuities in the complexity stack? Here we compare notes on our respective projects and try to clarify key points. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 Summary Overview of First Principles & First Values 7:35 The Project: A Post-Postmodern Reconstruction of Value 12:44 Is Positing Value as Fundamental a Premodern Move? 32:24 "Value": Avoiding Reification 39:11 Languaging the Reconstruction: Difficulties and Diversity 48:29 The Challenge and Importance of Modern Critique of Value 52:39 "Intimacy" or "Complexity"? Seeking Normative Terminology without Anthropomorphizing 1:03:07 Shifting the Paradigm: Translation or Equivocation? 1:06:25 Panpsychist vs. Emergentist Framings 1:10:26 Shifting Telos across Scales: E.g., Dissipative Structures 1:17:56 Value and Anti-Value 1:22:04 New God: Moving towards the Infinite Intimate 1:27:21 Building the Cathedral/Temple: Living with Sacred Purpose

Process thinker Jared Morningstar joins me to discuss the relationship of metamodernism to traditional forms of religion. How can engaging the traditional frame be done without losing hard-won gains in complexity and perspective-taking? Here Jared advocates for an open, flexible, and epistemically humble form of experimentation and participation in different religious modalities. We consider the role of 'causal opacity' in religious functionality and whether reflection is inherently harmful to generating emergent potential in religious contexts. We also explore the ways traditional faiths may be genuinely engaging with hyper-complex phenomena and how tradition-specific language can be helpful in extending faith into metamodernity. Finally, we discuss the role of plurality and singularity, the general and the particular, in what it means to engage religion from a metamodern perspective. 0:00 Introduction 1:34 Reaction vs. Reconstruction: Which Direction Is Calling? 10:50 Unseen Causes: Participatory Experimentation and Epistemic Humility 17:43 Breaking the Frame: Causation, Disenchantment, and Etic vs. Emic Perspectives 24:25 Moving In and Out of Tradition: Looking Back or Going Back? 35:24 Superstition or Super-Complexity? Parsing Tradition's Relationship with Hyperobjects 50:03 Beyond Perennialism: Religious Pluralism and Traditional Particularity 1:03:09 Living the Openness 1:10:59 Orienting Value in the Uncertainty 1:18:46 Integrating the General and the Particular: Heading Out and Coming Home 1:23:33 Conclusion

Integrative thinker Layman Pascal joins me to talk about the meaning of "God" from a metamodern perspective. How does thinking in terms of "surplus cohesion" point us to a helpful way of relating to all the meanings of the term? Why and when is a 2nd person relationship with Reality warranted? Who is this Face in the Universe summoning us to greater communion and transcendence? How do we communicate about all this across the various memetic sensemaking structures of culture (traditional, modern, postmodern metamodern)? Finally, what can folks expect about the upcoming metamodern spirituality gathering on the topic, which will be hosted at Sky Meadow in May and led by Layman? 0:00 Introduction 1:21 Layman's "Surplus Cohesion" Framework 4:48 God as Ultimate Reality in the 2nd Person 9:52 The Face of the Universe: Seeking the 2nd Person in the Complexity Stack 16:27 Some Framing: Reality as Dynamic Becoming, Not Static Being 21:36 Reflecting on the Alpha and the Omega: Problematizing the "Creator" Image 27:46 But Is This Still God? Communicating across Memetic Tribes 37:22 "Real in What Way?" across Levels of Memetic Complexity 45:05 Summarizing a Metamodern Sort of God 47:06 "God" in Quotation Marks: Moving beyond Totality 52:10 The God Encounter 1:08:12 The Divine Other 1:13:33 Praxis: Courting Visio Divina 1:16:41 Pluralistic Mysticism 1:23:10 Trinity as Dynamic Architectonic Plurality 1:27:08 Naturalism and Metaphysics 1:30:46 God is Love 1:37:20 Talking about "The G Word" 1:39:40 The Upcoming Metamodern Spirituality Lab on "God" at Sky Meadow (May 24-26) More on the metamodern spirituality lab at www.skymeadowinstitute.org

Process theologian Jay McDaniel joins me to discuss the contributions of process thought to the Christian tradition. What points of similarity and dissimilarity are there between process thinking and traditional, modern, and postmodern lenses? 0:00 Introduction 1:06 What Does Theology Look Like from a "Process" Lens? Relationship with Traditional Faith 5:44 A Feeling, Responding God 8:40 Not All-Powerful 14:40 A Dynamic, Living Whole Relationship with Modern Thought 19:41 The Naturalistic Paradigm and (the) Beyond 24:30 A Theology of Organism and Complexity 29:30 "God" as Counter-Entropic Lure and Preserver of Good 39:33 A Modern Gestalt for Christianity? 49:31 Looking Forward, Not Back 54:52 The Pathos of God Relationship with Postmodern Thought 1:04:38 Play, Beauty, Reality Relationship with Metamodernism 1:10:33 Lineages, Legacies, and Futures 1:14:40 Conclusion

Here I lay out my conception of what a metamodern version of Christianity looks like. Drawing on the insights of all the previous cultural paradigms, the revelation of God's nature and the deepening quality of the relationship between God and man can be understood as progressing through a series of covenants/dispensations that map to a learning process unfolding through time. Such a perspective helps us non-arbitrarily coordinate tribal, imperial, traditional, modern, and postmodern conceptions of God that have manifested across sacred history. All of these are necessary and contribute to a coherent story of deepening understanding about and relationship with the ever-transcendent Divine. 0:00 Introduction 0:56 "Metamodern" 5:50 "Christianity" 9:00 Sacred History as Learning and Expansion 11:43 Dynamics of Learning: Assimilation and Accomodation 16:47 Learning as Complexification of Thought 18:04 The Revelation of God as a Learning Process 24:34 1. The Sacred Relationship in the Tribal Epoch 26:12 2. Relationship with God in the Monarchy 29:02 3. Deepening Divine Relationship in the Prophets and Gospels 31:10 Recap: The Arc of Learning God Better 33:41 4. Revelation in the Modern Era 40:05 5. The Way of Jesus in Postmodernity 42:09 6. Metamodern Christianity: Embracing All Stages of Revelation 53:37 Conclusion

In this episode, I assume the modern historical-critical perspective with pastor and 'This Little Corner of the Internet' thinker Paul VanderKlay to explore the tension points it has with the traditional-devotional lens--and to consider if and how these impasses might be transcended. Does history matter to faith and to the faithful? If so, how, when, and why? Can we avoid equivocating discussions around the "reality" of Christianity? How crucial is the nonrational? Overall, we rehearse what challenges the traditional approach to Christianity faces as it develops into modern expressions and interpretations on the way towards a metamodern instantiation. 0:00 Introduction 0:55 The "God Pivot" and Metamodernism: The Missing Modern 7:39 How Does Faith Relate to Modern & Postmodern Critical Approaches? 24:30 The Reality of Religion in Different Psycho-Social Contexts 36:18 Reality vs. History: Language as Metaphor or Fact 52:38 Worldview, Rationality, and Projection 1:04:28 "Spirit": False Substance Reification vs. Real Transjective Relationality 1:07:22 Avoiding Equivocation and Taking Modern Science Seriously 1:20:59 Pragmatic and Developmental Hermeneutics 1:44:16 Nonrationality and the Meaning Crisis 1:59:15 Different Metamodern Spiritual Arcs: The Theological is Personal 2:16:00 Conclusion

In this episode, I offer my own take on the "God Pivot" towards Christianity in the Intellectual Dark Web and adjacent communities (e.g., the liminal web, "This Corner of the Internet," and beyond). Reflecting on my recent interview with Jordan Hall, I see something glaringly absent from the broader conversation: the modern historical-critical perspective. Therefore, I ask: 1) How does the Traditional-Devotional perspective differ from the Modern Historical-Critical one with regard to the Old and New Testaments? 2) What might a metamodern Christianity look like that could successfully and syngergistically toggle between these different lenses to yield something progressive and robust? 0:00 Introduction 4:40 Hermeneutic Lenses: The Traditional-Devotional and Modern Historical-Critical Perspectives 7:46 Old Testament: Traditional-Devotional 13:13 Old Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 32:01 New Testament: Traditional-Devotional 37:53 New Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 47:58 Implications and Synthesis

Following a recent conversion to Christianity, Jordan Hall offers his perspective on the Christian worldview, its orienting beliefs and how they inform (and affirm) ways of being in the world. Brendan brings his own background of being raised in and and leaving the church to the conversation, trying to gain deeper understanding about how one can affirm Christian doctrine in the context of a metamodern world. 0:00 Introduction 2:47 Faith and Understanding: Christian Propositional vs. Participatory Knowing 15:36 Beyond a "Religion vs. Reason" Debate 20:26 Jordan's Reasons to Believe: Scripture, History, 1st Person Experience* 30:36 Jordan Not Impressed by Naturalistic Challenge to the Resurrection 35:56 Notions of Gospel and Sin: Faith Changing Behavior --- For Good or Ill 41:53 Jordan's Rejection of Naturalism and His Faith in Christian Historicity and Ontology 52:21 (Brendan Has a Lot of Responses He Won't Get Into in This Context) 53:07 Self-Confirming Faith: Reciprocal Opening in Other Faiths? 1:02:32 Excursus: Historicity and Hermeneutics of the Doctrine of the Trinity 1:08:52 Self-Confirming Faith: Pathologies in Self-Justifying Beliefs 1:16:20 Self-Confirming Faith: Participatory Knowing and Confirmation Bias 1:27:53 Conclusion

Patrick Barry joins me to continue our discussion about the emerging contours of a metamodern wisdom school and the secular spirituality beginning to fill in the "missing tradition" between and beyond science and religion. 0:00 Introduction 0:34 Towards a Secular Spirituality 5:01 Awe and Mystery in Both Religion and Science 10:25 "Faith" in What Is 17:18 Being Naturally At Home in the Universe 27:08 Past Church and Academia: Forging a New Kind of Wisdom Institution 46:21 A New Story: A Self-Appreciating Cosmos 58:40 Meaning as Awe as Learning 1:04:18 Significance vs. Scale 1:09:58 Speculating on God and Telos: Finding Ourselves in the Depths of Being 1:24:23 Conclusion

Stephen Hicks, a professor of philosophy and author of Explaining Postmodernism, joins me to discuss the transformation of worldviews from the premodern to the modern and from the modern to the postmodern. After his incisive overview of these dramatic shifts, we discuss what it might look like to integrate the genuinely positive contributions of postmodern thought, and consider where we are headed in a post-postmodern world. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 How to Trace Philosophical History 4:15 From Premodern to Modern 15:56 From Modern to Postmodern 34:07 How Do We Move Beyond the Modern and Postmodern while Integrating Their Strengths? 43:28 Relativizing the Critique 51:14 Living After Postmodernism

Patrick Barry, a former science journalist and current coder for the popular Waking Up meditation app, joins me to talk about building wisdom communities and Stoas for secular spirituality. As those who claim no affiliation with organized religion (the "nones") are now the most populous religious identity in America, what institutions of meaning, virtue, and self-reflection might we see appear that can properly meet the needs of metamodern seekers? 0:00 Introduction 4:13 Stoicism, Empiricism, and Secular Spirituality: Towards a Sacred Naturalism 12:55 Science and the Sublime: Finding Significance in the Known 22:52 The Missing Tradition 27:02 Wisdom Gyms for Lived Philosophy: Adding 1st- and 2nd-Person Truths to 3rd-Person Fact 51:30 Know Thyself: A Second Curriculum 57:44 "Broicism"?: Shadow and the Developmental Conveyor Belt 1:03:27 Integrating Tradition and Myth 1:12:02 Stoicism in Metamodernity 1:15:15 Conclusion

I'm joined by Integral thinker, theorist, teacher, writer, and community elder Bruce Alderman to talk about the ongoing love/hate relationship between metamodernism and Integral Theory, especially as the debate has been stirred up anew by the publication of my new book Metamodernism: Or, The Cultural Logic of Cultural Logics. Here we tackle some of the ongoing controversies that continue to swirl in some parts of the metamodern discourse, especially around the degree to which Ken Wilber and his formulation of the post-postmodern does/does not, should/should not inform our understanding of theories of the metamodern. Given the relationship that does exist, how do we best acknowledge and utilize it in pragmatic and integrous ways? How do we properly parse and distinguish these post-postmodern paradigms? What are the genuine fault lines and distinguishing characteristics of each framework, and what's just meme fluff? 0:00 Introduction (1:16, 3:30 Bruce card) 1:55 Bruce's Integral Context/Background 5:06 Brendan's Metamodern Context/Background 8:07 Did Hanzi Just Rip Off Wilber? 13:03 Did Hanzi Just Steal the Term "Metamodern" for an Integral Framework? 25:26 Has the Ship Sailed? Could Metamodernism Be the Future of Integral? 42:48 Did Brendan Just Excise/Ignore Wilber? 51:33 Does Metamodernism Offer a Workable Social Science Where Integral Doesn't? 1:01:03 The "Woo" Factor 1:14:15 Conclusion

Embodiment practitioner and teacher Ēlen Awalom joins me to talk about the promise and necessity of bringing more embodied wisdom into our world and, especially, our online spaces. We consider some approaches one can use in the context of triggering or polarizing engagements in digital forums in an attempt to return the focus back to the body and lived emotional experience in very disembodied contexts. Finally, we talk in broad terms about the importance of increasing our somatic intelligence in all areas of life, whether that's in response to the meta-crisis or our own interpersonal relationships. 0:00 Introduction 2:00 Bringing More Embodiment to Metamodern Discourse 9:13 Responding with Somatic Intelligence: Step 1. Center Yourself and Feel the Emotion 16:47 Step 2. Respond with Open Questions 20:00 Step 3. Use "I Statements" 23:15 Step 4. Know When to Step Back 31:20 The Challenge of Bypassing 36:19 Intentions for Embodied Leadership 50:19 Conclusion

Whitehead scholar and process thinker Matt Segall joins me to deepen our conversation about responses to the meaning crisis as it relates to reconnecting cosmos, consciousness, and value. In this discussion, we dive into the topic of "prehension," an idea from Whitehead that posits an experiential component to all phenomena in the universe. 0:00 Introduction 5:08 Prehension: Not Interior, but the Interior/Exterior Bridge 12:06 Prehension and Panpsychism 16:27 Identifying Basal Experience: Subjectivity and Time 25:52 Experience and Complexity 33:40 Attempting to Describe Fundamental Experience 47:06 Is Time Subjective? 54:36 Metaphysics and Novelty: Evolving Laws? 1:00:16 The Spectrum of Consciousness 1:04:22 Whitehead vs. Anthroposophy? 1:10:28 Philosophy's Role in a Scientific Age 1:21:43 Next Steps

Matt Segall joins me to debate the relative merits of "anthroposophical" aproaches to addressing the meaning crisis, such as those adopted in the works of Steiner, Stein and Gafni, and, to some degree, Whitehead. 0:00 Introduction 4:15 Revisiting the Image of Nature: Revitalizing Romanticism? 12:00 Humans in a Cosmos or a Cosmos Known by Humans? 21:17 Is Mechanism Just a Part of the Process? Emergence All the Way Down 30:05 Advance or Regression? Thinking in Terms of Assimilation and Accomodation 38:13 Defining a "Mechanistic" Approach: The Minimal Need for Causality 41:17 Retrojecting Novelty into Primals? Positing "Prehension" 57:01 Upshot: So...Is the Universe Expanding or Not? 1:11:52 Against a Model--or ...Models? 1:17:13 What Does an "Emodied" Knowledge Entail? 1:25:25 Conclusion

Dr. Michael Mascolo is a developmental psychologist who has written on hierarchical complexity as well as "moral relationalism." In this conversation, we discuss the Dynamic Skill Theory of cognitive complexification before considering what it might mean for moral reasoning. We debate the normative implications of complexification itself, navigating the polar extremes of moral absolutism and moral relativism using a transjective framing. What value is there in tracing value itself down the evolutionary stack? What does this suggest about agency and free will? 0:00 Introduction 0:46 Hierarchical Complexity: Dynamic Skill Theory vs. MHC 9:48 Domains of Development: Particulars and Generalizations 16:00 The Moral Domain 19:47 What is a "Skill"? What is...Anything? 23:33 Is Complexity Normative? 32:48 Moral Relativism vs. Moral Relationalism 43:04 Ontological Normativity 55:30 Where Does "Morality" Emerge in the Complexification Process? 1:04:16 Agency, Emergent Causation, and Free Will 1:11:43 Conclusion

Jared Morningstar discusses the nexus of metamodernism and the Islamic tradition with me, using his recent essay for Emerge (linked below) as a way into the topic. We explore multi-perspectival approaches to traditionalism, and what it means to integrate its insights in a metamodern context. Jared also brings to bear his knowledge of process thought to the topic. 0:00 Introduction 1:43 Washing the Heel 12:06 Insight from the Past, or Salvaging from the Future? 15:45 Attractions to Different Religiosities Based on Biography 29:52 Pluralism and Dogma 37:10 The Dialectic of Autonomy and Constraint 34:52 Ritual and Ontology: Angels 46:42 Islam and Process Theology 57:23 From Traditional (+ Anti-Modern) to Modern to Postmodern 1:12:36 Towards a Metamodern Islam 1:18:30 Follow Jared's Work

Bonnitta Roy and I explore the meaning of complexification and the evolutionary narrative. After some introductory context on Bonnie's prior engagement in the "scene" of integrative metatheory, we find our way to the topic of teleology (i.e., the apparent goal-directedness of nature). From there Bonnie outlines some of the pivotal mutations in the evolutionary narrative that have increased organism's capacity for abstraction. We discuss whether the directionality of these processes is captured in models of hierarchical complexity, or if other sorts of maps are needed to appreciate the evolution of mind. 0:00 Introduction 1:37 Bonnie's Background in Integrative Metatheory 12:30 On Integral vs. Metamodern: Problems with Stage Theories 17:53 On (Apparent) Teleology 21:00 The Story of Pivotal Mutations Up the Evolutionary Stack 31:22 Teleology* towards Increasing Causal Power 41:09 Getting Beyond Thoughts: Pure Abstractions vs. Categorical Abstractions 45:30 Information and Pure Abstractions: Direct Perception of the Causal Manifold 49:55 Is Increasing Hierarchical Complexity Getting Closer to the Causal Manifold? 1:03:27 Complexification as Recursively Finding New Vantage Points 1:12:38 Increasing Degrees of Freedom without Increasing Complexity? 1:15:22 Intimations and Afterthoughts: Directions for Further Discussion

Could AI become conscious? Is it already? Everyone seems to be talking about this, yet little of the discussion is actually informed by grounded theories of consciousness and mind. In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Gregg Henriques, professor of psychology at James Madison University, originator of the unified theory of knowledge framework, and the author of 'A New Synthesis for Solving the Problem of Psychology' to talk about the prospect of consciousness in AI. After zeroing in on just what we mean by "consciousness" in this sense (to get past the endless equivocation commonly found in these discussions), Gregg and I get to the heart of the matter. 0:00 Introduction 2:00 The Question: Can AI Be(come) Conscious? 4:40 (Context: Gregg's Work to Address Confusions about Mind) Part I: What Do We Mean By "Consciousness"? 8:33 Three Definitions: 9:07 (1) Cognition 18:08 (2) Subjective Conscious Experience (The One I Mean) 19:57 (3) Egoic Self-Consciousness Part II: AI and Consciousness 23:08 Could AI Have (2) Subjective Conscious Experience? 29:00 Beyond the Turing Test Standard 33:10 Panpsychist and Idealist Challenges? 35:46 Functional Parallels Are Not Equivalence 37:50 Approaching the Fifth Joint Point 50:17 What Should We Value: Intelligence or Sentience?

Jason Ānanda Josephson Storm discusses conceptions of value after postmodernism. Is postmodernism a nihilistic relativism or an activist moralism? Critics have accused it of both. What values pervade the postmodern academic paradigm? How do value conceptions shift when the postmodern paradigm gets diffused in popular culture? Is the "is-ought distinction" actually valid? What would a positive value project look like, and what are its benefits? Finally, what comes next for metamodernism and Storm's work? 0:00 Introduction 0:52 Postmodernism: Relativist or Activist? Nihilist or Moralist? 9:11 Value vs. Critique 17:07 Politics and Academia 22:17 Postmodern Diffusions 31:04 Is vs. Ought: Who's Afraid of Normativity? 38:04 Systematic Metamodern Philosophy 43:08 Imagining a Positive Future: Ethics and Wisdom 55:55 How Can Academia Reincorporate Wisdom? 59:42:21 Towards a Paradigm Shift: The Future of Metamodernism 1:09:35 Paradigm Projects 1:14:49 What's Next?