Podcast appearances and mentions of Ken Wilber

Jim talks with Peter Wang—chief AI officer, cofounder and CEO of Anaconda, board member of the Center for Humane Technology, and founder of the Austin STEM Center—about Robert Pirsig's metaphysics of quality, how modernity encourages defection, and a secular conception of the sacred. They discuss: Peter's self-description as "the music in a violin that can kind of hear itself" The "Peter Wang-shaped hole in the universe" thought experiment Subject-object Cartesian dualism as a false alienation Minimum viable metaphysics & atheistic agnosticism Religion as an evolutionary emergent coherence mechanism for human collectives Figure and ground as a metaphysical lens—the anonymous soil that allows religion to sprout The Unix fortune "Man was invented by water to carry itself uphill" & Peter's teleology origin story Process metaphysics & presentism—"we're not going anywhere, we're becoming someone" Pirsig's metaphysics of quality & the four strata of static patterns of value The intellectual plane vs. the social plane & Ken Wilber's pre-trans fallacy Defection within collaborative groups as the dynamic all human social systems try to constrain "Death from a Distance"—throwing, beta coalitions & the emergence of a middle class of power Modernity's shrinking locus of care & the collapse of embedded social context The agglomeration of defectors & how fluid capital enables sociopathic hoarding Money-on-money return as today's dominant pruning rule Joint attention as a scarce collective resource & social media's perforation of shared intersubjective infrastructure Human agency & "micro-abdications" as the aggregate source of Moloch / Game A The augmented currency thought experiment—metering human thriving alongside financial returns Broken collective sense-making & the search for dynamic, adaptable values Peter's secular conception of the sacred—the "eternal golden braid of humanity" "Ofness"—holding both distinctness and belonging to the world ... and much more. Links: Episode Transcript JRS EP 278 Peter Wang on AI, Copyright, and the Future of Intelligence JRS Currents 092: Peter Wang on The Meaning Crisis and Consequentiality JRS EP 16 Anaconda CTO Peter Wang on The Distributed Internet "The Silent Sky and the Test Ahead," by Jim Rutt "A Minimum Viable Metaphysics," by Jim Rutt Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, by Robert M. Pirsig Lila: An Inquiry into Morals, by Robert M. Pirsig Chaos: Making a New Science, by James Gleick Death from a Distance and the Birth of a Humane Universe, by Paul M. Bingham and Joanne Souza The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins Center for Humane Technology Peter Wang is the Chief AI and Innovation Officer and Co-founder of Anaconda. Peter leads Anaconda's AI Incubator, which focuses on advancing core Python technologies and developing new frontiers in open-source AI and machine learning, especially in the areas of edge computing, data privacy, and decentralized computing.

Ep. 232 | In this potent and profound conversation, Zen teachers, Integral Facilitators, and conflict mediators, Diane Musho Hamilton and her student and co-author Gabriel Wilson, eloquently reveal the practical benefits of a life founded on contemplative practice. What they bring home so effectively—both in this conversation and in their new book, Waking Up and Growing Up—is how much we have to gain from an interface of traditional Zen and contemporary knowledge. “Buddhist practice is the most genius way to work with human suffering,” Diane says, and grounded in awareness of the fundamental oneness is where we want to be when engaging in social or political activism, or when facing any kind of conflict. “It's the evolution of consciousness and the attendant set of skills to support that,” she continues. We can awaken to an awareness of our true nature, and then take up the gauntlet of growing up—“straight up maturation, straight-up ego development.”In fact, what Gabe calls Diane's “experiment” is nothing less than evolving the 2,500-year-old tradition of Zen, preserving and innovating, holding on to the wisdom, power, and grace of the tradition while bringing in the contributions of the West: psychology, shadow work, neuroscience, emotional development, and stage-appropriate interpersonal skills. Also, how to make sense of power dynamics, work with authority, and allow being pushed out of our comfort zone. A testament to Diane and Gabe's own inner work, this groundbreaking conversation is inspiring and impactful, punctuated with deep, personal, experiential wisdom from both guests that speaks directly to how we can best wake up, grow up, and show up in this challenging world of ours. Recorded July 24, 2025.“There's nothing like sitting with what is to prepare you to be with what is.”Topics & Time StampsIntroducing Zen teachers, authors, and Integral Facilitators, Diane Musho Hamilton & Gabriel Wilson (00:44)What drew Gabe to Zen, and what lack did he feel Waking Up and Growing Up would fill? (01:35)Evolving the Zen tradition: what do we need, particularly in western Buddhism, that we're not finding? (05:26)Using Ken Wilber's framework of waking up and growing up (08:50)What does “waking up” really mean? (10:02)Practice IS enlightenment: the awakened mind is only found in the here and now (12:23)There's nothing like sitting with what is to prepare you to be with what will come (17:30)The realization that there's no big opening to be had (23:05)What does “growing up” mean? (24:07)Providing students with interpersonal skills to accommodate their evolving levels of development (27:00)Writing for the younger generations: how to make sense of power dynamics, work with authority & allow being pushed out of your comfort zone (31:15)The wisdom of learning from those who have gone before us (34:49)Growing the capacity to deal with intensity in the moment (38:59)The example of John Lewis: being inclusive of the ego but not limited by it (44:29)How do we respond to what's happening without imagining it shouldn't be happening? (49:15) Holding the vision that we are fundamentally one when we engage in social activism (51:18)Be wary of using aggression in the name of love (54:11)Within the container of conventional religious traditions, developmental tasks are different for each stage (59:40)The teacher/student relationship cuts both ways (01:07:21)Preserving and evolving the Zen tradition for today's world (01:08:55) Buddhist practice is the most genius way to work with human suffering (01:13:40)Looking to the future: are we innovating too much? (01:16:24)A lot of technology is racing us to the bottom of our brainstem; where we put our attention is important (01:20:32)Resources & ReferencesDiane Musho Hamilton, co-founder of Two Arrows Zen CenterGabriel Wilson, founder of Freedom & FairnessDiane Hamilton & Gabriel Wilson, Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross-Training for an Evolving WorldDiane Hamilton, The Zen of You and Me: A Guide to Getting Along with Just About EveryoneDiane Hamilton, Gabriel Wilson & Kimberly Loh, Compassionate Conversations: How to Speak and Listen from the HeartKen Wilber, Welcome to the Integral Approach (Integral Life website)Ken Wilber, Finding Radical Wholeness (where Ken expounds his “waking up, growing up, cleaning up, showing up” modelDeep Transformation's A. H. Almaas Wisdom SeriesDōgen Zenji, “Practice is enlightenment” (from the Fukan zazengi)Joanna Macy (1929-2025), environmental activist, author, and scholar of Buddhism, general systems theory & deep ecologySam Harris, philosopher, neuroscientist, author & podcast hostJohn Lewis interview with On Being's Krista Tippett: Love in Action What is Buddha? Zen koan (case 21) in The Gateless Gate: Classic Book of Zen KoansThe Hidden Lamp: Stories from Twenty-Five Centuries of Awakened Women, edited by Zenshin Florence Caplow, Reigetsu Susan MoonTristan Harris, co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology---Diane Musho Hamilton is an award-winning mediator and a teacher of Zen meditation. Diane served as the Director of Dispute Resolution for the Utah Judiciary from 1994 – 1999, mediating many matters, from simple neighborhood disputes to complex, multi-party negotiations. She was most recognized for her skills in facilitating difficult conversations about race, gender, and religion in Utah. She began working with Ken Wilber and the Integral Institute in 2004 and has held transformative containers for people interested in their development for more than twenty years. Diane is the co-founder of Two Arrows Zen, a Buddhist practice center in Utah, and is the author of four books: Everything Is Workable, The Zen of You & Me, Compassionate Conversations, and, most recently, Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross-Training for an Evolving World.---Gabe Wilson is the founder of Freedom & Fairness, an executive coach, facilitator, and conflict mediator whose work sits at the intersection of organizational leadership, adult development, and contemplative practice. He is a monk in the Soto Zen lineage at Two Arrows Zen Center and a certified Integral Facilitator. Gabe co-authored...

Dans cet épisode, je reçois Alexis Desouches, fondateur de Kamilex et accompagnateur de transformations pour des startups, pour une discussion autour de ce qui fait échouer la grande majorité des transformations en entreprise — et de ce qu'on peut y faire.Nous avons parlé :De la distinction entre changement de type 1 et changement de type 2 : le premier modifie des éléments du système, le second change le système lui-même. La plupart des entreprises croient faire du type 2 et se contentent du type 1.Du concept d'homéostasie organisationnelle : la tendance naturelle de tout système à revenir à son état antérieur, et pourquoi cela rend toute transformation profonde si difficile à ancrer.Des huit étapes du changement identifiées par John Kotter à la Harvard Business School — du sentiment d'urgence initial jusqu'à l'ancrage d'une nouvelle culture — et de ce qui capote à chaque étape.De pourquoi le changement de type 2 est irréversible et exige un deuil : l'ancienne version de soi, de l'équipe, de l'organisation n'existe plus. Il n'y a pas de retour en arrière possible.Du modèle intégral de Ken Wilber appliqué aux organisations : les quatre dimensions (individuel intérieur, individuel extérieur, collectif intérieur, collectif extérieur) et pourquoi les entreprises ne travaillent quasi exclusivement que sur les deux dimensions extérieures.Du rôle de l'interoception et de la méditation de pleine conscience comme outils concrets de transformation : entraîner sa capacité à lire les signaux du corps, développer l'écoute profonde, prendre de meilleures décisions.De l'intelligence artificielle et de ce qui nous rend irremplaçables : émotions, corps, lien aux autres — et du risque de déléguer nos responsabilités aux IA sans discernement.Une conversation qui sort délibérément des cadres habituels de la transformation pour aller chercher ce qui change réellement — de l'intérieur.Liens utiles:Alexis Desouches: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexis-desouches-36278647/ site: https://www.alexisdesouches.com/Cet épisode est produit et animé par Solenne Niedercorn, fondatrice de Finscale.

Hilaritas host Mike Gathers chats with Renaissance Wordsmith—writer, editor, and coach Jordan Gruber.  Founder of the Enlightenment.Com website, Jordan recently co-authored with James Fadiman, Your Symphony of Selves (on healthy multiplicity), and Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Performance   Links: Jordan's Substack: https://jordangruber.substack.com/   Jordan's website: Jordangruber.com   Jordan interviewing Ken Wilber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvAuyBSjyLM&t=5s   • • • Host Mike Gathers: https://linktr.ee/mgathers23   Producer/Engineer Richard Rasa: http://www.pelorian.com/rasa.html

“Practice the wound of love." - Ken Wilber

Welcome to Hot Topics! Our guest, Jason Lange, returns to the show to continue his answer to the following question: what does it mean to be a man? Who is Jason Lange?Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide who helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. A certified No More Mr. Nice Guy coach, Jason has trained and studied with leaders such as John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, Jun Po Roshi, Tripp Lanier, and Ken Wilber. Many men are struggling right now as the old paradigms of what a "man" is supposed to be are no longer relevant or even appropriate. Men's work is where Jason and his team discover healthier ways to be in the world and shed the old "lone wolf" mentality. Jason began his men's work journey in his 20s after suffering from years of loneliness, discomfort in his body, and a deep struggle to create romantic relationships. Of all the work he's done over the last 20 years, men's groups have been the most impactful in changing the quality of his life day to day. It's now part of his mission for every man to be in a men's group, so they can feel healthier in their expression in the world, create more vital intimate partnerships, and be of service to their families and communities.You can find Jason:On the web: https://evolutionary.men/On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/evolutionarymensworkOn Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolutionarymen/On Threads: https://www.threads.com/@evolutionarymenOn X: https://x.com/menevolutionaryOn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/evolutionarymen/On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@evolutionarymenOn TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@evolutionarymenBook a free exploratory call with Jason to talk about what's going on in your life and how men's work and coaching might support you: https://evolutionary.men/talkJason has a podcast called "Evolutionary Men." Listen and subscribe: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jQr495pFaJk3E9YnkUK9l?si=19aaef8c01d34a38Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtube.com/live/KT-DOZVLUSsRate this episode on IMDB: TBA********************************************Follow Gabrielle Crichlow:On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gabrielle.crichlowOn Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gabrielle.crichlowOn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabrielle-crichlow-92587a360Follow A Step Ahead Tutoring Services:On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/astepaheadtutoringservicesOn Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/astepaheadtutoringservicesOn X: https://www.x.com/ASATS2013On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/a-step-ahead-tutoring-services/On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@astepaheadtutoringservicesOn TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@asats2013On Eventbrite: https://astepaheadtutoringservices.eventbrite.comVisit us on the web: https://www.astepaheadtutoringservices.comSign up for our email list: https://squareup.com/outreach/a41DaE/subscribeSign up for our text list: https://tapit.us/cipPJOCheck out our entire "Hot Topics!" podcast: https://www.astepaheadtutoringservices.com/hottopicspodcastSupport us:Cash App: https://cash.app/$ASATS2013PayPal: https://paypal.me/ASATS2013Venmo: https://venmo.com/u/ASATS2013Zelle: success@astepaheadtutoringservices.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/hot-topics--5600971/supportOriginal date of episode: December 4, 2025

In this episode I am joined by Ken Wilber, contemporary philosopher, author, and founder of Integral Theory. Ken recounts his biography and intellectual development including prodigious early reading, major spiritual experiences, and his models of spiritual and psychological development. Ken reflects on his rise to fame, his deeper motivations for writing, and whether or not his Integral Institute made the impact he had hoped for. Ken also gives a detailed account of his association with controversial American spiritual teacher Adi Da, weighs the good and bad of Da Free John's career, considers the source of Adi Da's shaktipat power, and reveals why he almost joined the guru's inner circle. … Video version: https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep356-awakening-to-wholeness-ken-wilber Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast'. … Topics include: 00:00 - Intro 00:51 - Steve's favourite Ken Wilber book 02:01 - Difficulties writing “One Taste” 05:39 - Adolescent interest in developmental psychology 08:53 - Major spiritual experience at 13 years old 09:55 - Comparing stage models 12:24 - Zen Buddhist practice 13:47 - Ken's first theoretical discovery 15:57 - Different types of wholeness 17:19 - Waking up 17:55 - Growing up 19:00 - Opening up 21:15 - Cleaning up 23:47 - Showing up 24:43 - 4 perspectives of person 28:51 - Ken's fiction reading and the types of truth 31:11 - Marquis de Sade 32:45 - Why Ken wrote 39:39 - Why participate in the Great Conversation? 41:29 - Who you really are 43:32 - Universal mysticism 45:00 - Two types of religion 53:15 - Dealing with the audience response 56:22 - Being noticed in public 57:50 - Did Ken have collaborators? 01:00:05 - Integral group gatherings and conferences 01:04:22 - Ken's assessment of the overall impact of Integral theory and the Integral gatherings 01:07:58 - No regrets 01:09:39 - Ken's opinion of Steve's work 01:12:23 - Ken's history with Adi Da 01:17:10 - Invited to be part of Adi Da's inner circle 01:19:57 - Meeting Adi Da 01:20:59 - When Ken decided not to join Adidam 01:21:57 - Sadness at Adi Da's death 01:23:53 - William Tsiknas 01:25:22 - Falling in love with Adi Da 01:28:35 - Source of Adi Da's power 01:28:41 - Ken on Adi Da's relationship with his teachers 01:32:59 - Adi Da's pranic transmission 01:35:38 - Muktananda + why Adi Da was drawn to Rudi 01:40:16 - What is shaktipat? 01:43:15 - Post-death contact and ethical controversies 01:45:04 - Feeling the heart transmission of Adi Da 01:47:17 - Ken's disappointment in Adi Da's controversial conduct 01:50:54 - Good vs bad of Adi Da … To find our more about Ken Wilber, visit: - https://kenwilber.com/ For more interviews, videos, and more visit: - https://www.guruviking.com Music ‘Deva Dasi' by Steve James

Five Reasons You're Not Enlightened (Ken Wilber) by Integral Life

Oliver Heuler ist Golflehrer, Autodidakt, Philosoph und Buchautor. Seit 38 Jahren unterrichtet er Golf. Eine Sportart, die er mit 16 Jahren für sich entdeckte und die ihn bis heute nicht losgelassen hat. Nebenbei hat er rund 30 weitere Sportarten erlernt, darunter olympisches Gewichtheben, das er mit 45 Jahren begann, und Backgammon, in dem er den Titel des internationalen Meisters trägt. Aus seiner jahrzehntelangen Auseinandersetzung mit Psychologie, östlicher Philosophie und dem Werk von Ken Wilber und Marshall Rosenberg entwickelte er seinen eigenen Ansatz: den Empathiekompass. Ein Navigationssystem jenseits moralischer Normen, das er in seinen Büchern „Vom Sollen zum Sein" und dem Roman „Jenseits der Moral" beschreibt.Im Gespräch mit Jasmin Kosubek legt Heuler offen, warum er Moral nicht für ein Fundament des Zusammenlebens hält, sondern für eine der gefährlichsten Erfindungen der Menschheit — weil sie Menschen von echter Empathie entbindet und Gewalt moralisch rechtfertigt. Wir sprechen darüber, warum er seinen Sohn nie erzogen hat, wie er vom überzeugten Ökosozialist zum Libertären wurde, was der Sozialstaat mit Waffengewalt zu tun hat und warum er den freien Willen für eine Illusion hält und das Leben seitdem deutlich angenehmer findet.

Ken Wilber, the grand architect of Integral Theory, enters the Decoding chamber (wearing a striking but slightly unconvincing wig) as we explore a worldview that confidently absorbs every religion, philosophy, and half-remembered psychology paper into one majestic, Borg-like synthesis. Resistance, as it turns out, is not just futile... it is probably “first-tier thinking".This is a world of elaborate, baroque cosmologies. Layers within layers, quadrants within stages, spirals within states, with each offering a map of reality that grows more intricate the closer it gets to its own centre. Traditions are not debated so much as absorbed, their distinctiveness dissolved into a higher synthesis that always leads to the ultimate insight: integral theory.Get ready to experience high-level political analysis where Kamala Harris becomes a “fractured green" and Donald Trump the embodiment of a "rational orange". You will also learn how Ken is working with AI companies to help them incorporate integral thinking into their algorithms. The implications this has for human evolution are hard to fathom.Finally, in true Columbo fashion, we circle back to Matt's core philosophical system … panpsychism. Just a small detail, and also take some time to conduct a brief spiritual inquisition into Matt's alleged Christian upbringing. Fortunately, nothing is rejected. Everything is integrated, including all possible critiques.SourcesSuma Gowda: Ken Wilber on Future of Consciousness, AI, Trump's Election: A Deep Dive into Spiral DynamicsThe Rise and Fall of Ken Wilber – Mark MansonRebel Wisdom: Interview with Ken Wilber- What Happened to Jordan PetersonDS Wilson finds wisdom in Ken's approachKen Wilber's website

Send a textDr. Joel Rothaizer is a psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant and leadership development specialist. He's Board Certified in Organizational & Business Consulting Psychology, and a Master Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation. His book on leadership, called Clear Impact, has been strongly endorsed by Ken Wilber. The head of Integral Zen calls it the most integral book on leadership he's ever read.A  Few Quotes From This Episode“Without a practice of reflection, you cannot build leadership capacity. Period. End of story.” "What happens in our sessions has zero meaning unless you're applying it.”“Do you start your day with an intention of who you want to be?”Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeEpisode #1 - Rethinking The Polarity Map with Dr. Joel RothaizerEpisode #2 - The Wake I Leave with Dr. Joel RothaizerTrey Anastasio - His Story About Drug CourtAbout The International Leadership Association (ILA)The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. About  Scott J. AllenWebsiteWeekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for LeadersMy Approach to HostingThe views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration  ♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.

In “AI Psychosis vs. AI Awakening,” Vince Fakhoury Horn argues that the same biological machinery enabling AI-induced delusion also enables AI-assisted awakening, and introduces his Interspective.ai approach — a Middle Way practice of engaging with AI as a potential partner in wisdom, thus avoiding the extremes of both Materialism (matter is fundamental) and Idealism (consciousness is fundamental).

TRANSCRIPT Robertson: [00:00:00] Gissele: Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Gissele: Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support the podcast, please go to buy me a coffee.com/love and compassion. Today we’re talking about how to become a more compassionate civilization in light of the world’s most recent events. Robertson Work is a nonfiction author, social ecological activist, and former UNDP policy advisor on decentralized government, NYU Wagner, graduate School of Public Service, professor of Innovative Leadership and Institute of Cultural Affairs, country Director, conducting community organizational and leadership initiatives. Gissele: He has worked in over 50 countries for over 50 years and is founder of the Compassionate Civilization Collaborative. He has five published books and has [00:01:00] contributed to another 13. His most well-known book is a Compassionate Civilization. Every week he publishes an essay on Compassionate Conversations on Substack. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Robertson work. Hi Robertson. Robertson: Hi Giselle. How are you? Gissele: I’m good. How about yourself? Robertson: I’m good, thank you. I here in the Southern United States. I’m glad you’re in wonderful Canada. Robertson: great admiration for your country. Gissele: Ah, thank you. Thank you. Gissele: I wanted to talk about your book. I got a copy of it and it was written in 2017, but as I was reading it, I really found myself listening to things that were almost prophetic that seemed to be happening right now. What compelled you to write Compassionate Civilizations at this moment in history. Robertson: Yes. Thank You you so much, and thank you for inviting me to talk with you today. Robertson: And I wanna say I’m so touched by the wonderful work of the Matri Center for Love [00:02:00] and Compassion. I have enjoyed looking at your website and listening to your podcast and hearing Pema Chodron speak about self-love. If it’s okay, I’d like to start with a few moments of mindful breathing Gissele: Yes, definitely. Robertson: okay. I invite everyone to become aware of your breathing, being aware of breathing in and breathing out. Breathing in the here and in the now. Breathing in love. Breathing in gratitude. I have arrived. I am home. I’m solid. I am free breathing in, breathing out here now. Robertson: Love [00:03:00] gratitude. Arrived home solid free. Okay. And to your question, after working in local communities and organizations around the world with the Institute of Cultural Affairs and doing program and policy work with UNDP and teaching grad school at NYU Wagner, I felt called to articulate a motivating vision for how to embody and catalyze a compassionate civilization. Robertson: So each of us can embody, even now, even here, we can embody and catalyze a compassionate civilization in this very present moment. We don’t have to wait, you know, 50 years, a hundred years, a thousand years. we can embody it in the here and the now. So I was increasingly aware of climate change, climate disasters, [00:04:00] the rise of oligarchic, fascism, and of course the UN’s sustainable development goals. Robertson: I also had been studying the engaged Buddhism of Thich Nhat Hahn for many years, and practicing mindfulness and compassionate action. As you know, compassion is action focused on relieving suffering in individual mindsets and behaviors, and collective cultures and systems. The word that com it means with, and compassion means suffering. Robertson: So compassion is to be with suffering and to relieve suffering in oneself and with others. So, I gave talks about a compassionate civilization in my NYU Wagner grad classes and in speeches in different countries. Then in 2013, I started a blog called The Compassionate Civilization. So in 2017, there was a [00:05:00] new US president who concerned me deeply and who’s now president again. Robertson: So a Compassionate Civilization was published in July of that year, as you mentioned, 2017. The book outlines our time of crisis and provides a vision, strategies and tactics of embodying and catalyzing a compassionate civilization, person by person, community by community. Moment by moment it it includes the movement of movements, mom that will do that. Robertson: Innovative leadership methods, global local citizen, and practices of care of self and others as mindful activists. So there’s a lot in it. Yeah. The Six strategies or arenas of transformation are environmental sustainability, gender equality, socioeconomic justice, participatory governance, cultural tolerance and peace, and non-violence, socio. Robertson: So since then [00:06:00] I’ve been promoting the Compassionate Civilization Collaborative, as you mentioned, to support a movement of movements. The mom, Gissele: thank you for that. I really appreciated that. And I really enjoyed the book as well. It’s so funny that, the majority of people see a world that doesn’t work and they want things to change, but they don’t do something necessarily to change it. When did compassion shift from a private virtue to a public mission for you? Robertson: Great question. Thank you. I think it began the private part began very early in my Christian upbringing. I was raised by loving parents to love others. You know, love of neighbor is the heart of Christianity. And understand that love is the ultimate reality. You know, that you know, as we say in Christianity, God is love. Robertson: So then when I went off to college at Oklahoma State University, I found myself being a campus activist. So I shifted to activism for civil rights. We were [00:07:00] demonstrating for women’s rights and for peace in Vietnam. As you know, the Vietnam War was raging. And after that, I attended Theological Seminary at Chicago Theological Seminary, but. Robertson: My calling happened when I was still in college, and it was in a weekend course, just a one weekend in Chicago. Some of us drove up and attended a course at, with the ecumenical Institute in the African-American ghetto in Chicago. And my whole life was changed in one weekend. I mean, I woke up that I could make a difference and I could help create a world that cared from everyone, you know? Robertson: And here I was. I was what? I was a junior in college. So then after that, I worked after college and grad school. I worked in that African American ghetto in Chicago with the Ecumenical Institute. And then in Malaysia, I was asked to go to Malaysia and my wife and I did [00:08:00] that, Robertson: And then. We were asked to work in South Korea, which we did. And then the work shifted from a religious to secular is we now call our work the Institute of Cultural Affairs. And from there we worked in Jamaica and then in Venezuela, and then back in the US in a little community in Oklahoma Robertson: And then I also worked in poor slums and villages. So then with the UNDP. I worked in around the world giving policy advice and starting projects and programs on decentralized governance to help countries decentralize from this capital to the provinces and the cities and towns and villages to decentralize decision making. Robertson: Then my engaged Buddhist studies particularly with Han and his teachers and practice awakened me to a calling to save all sentient beings. what [00:09:00] an outrageous calling, how can one person vow to save all sentient beings? But that’s what we do in that tradition of the being a BofA. Robertson: So through mindfulness and compassionate actions. So then I continue my journey by teaching at NYU Wagner with grad students from around the world. I love that so much. Then to the present as a consultant, speaker, author, and activist locally, nationally, and globally. So Gissele has been quite a journey, and here we are in this moment together, in this wild, crazy world. Gissele: Yeah, for sure, One of the things that I really loved about your book that you emphasize that we need to have a vision for the world that we wanna create. If we don’t have a vision, then we can’t create it, right? many of us are, focusing on anti, anti-oppressive, anti crime, anti this, anti that. Gissele: But we’re not really focusing on what sort of world do we wanna create? and I’ve had conversations with so many people, and when I ask the question, if people truly [00:10:00] believe. The human beings could be like loving and compassionate, and we could create a world that would be loving and compassionate for all many people say no. Gissele: And so I was wondering, like, did you always believe that civilization could be compassionate or did you grow into that conviction? Robertson: Great question. I definitely grew into it. Yeah. even as a child, I was awakened, you know, by the plight of African Americans in my country, in our little town in Oklahoma. Robertson: So I kind of began waking up. But I wasn’t sure, how much I or we could do about it. So I really grew into that conviction through my journey around the world working in over in 55 countries, it’s interesting the number of people your podcast goes to serving people and the planet. Robertson: So. Everywhere I worked Gissele, I was touched by the local people, that people care for each other, you know, in the slums and squatter settlements, in villages, in cities, the, the rich and the [00:11:00] poor. everywhere I went regardless of the culture, the language, the races, the issues the, the local people were caring. Robertson: So my understanding is that compassion is an action. It’s not just a feeling or a thought. It’s an action to relieve suffering in oneself and in others. but suffering is never entirely eliminated. You know, in Buddhism, the first noble truth is there is suffering, and it continues, but it can be relieved as best we can with through practices, through projects, through programs, and through policies. Robertson: So what has helped me is to see, again, a deep teaching in Buddhism that each person is influenced by negative emotions of greed, fear, hatred, and ignorance. And yet we can practice with these and to become aware of them and just, and to let them go, you know, and to practice evolving into loving kindness as [00:12:00] you, as you do in in your wonderful center. Robertson: Teaching more loving, kindness, trust and understanding. We can embrace inner being that we’re all part of everything. We’re all part of each other. You know, we’re part of the living earth. We’re part of humanity. I am part of you, you are part of me. And impermanence, you know, that there is no separate permanent self. Robertson: Everything comes and goes, and yet the mystery is there’s no birth and death. ’cause you and I. we’re part of, this journey for 13.8 billion years of the universe, and yet we can, in each moment, we can take an action that relieves our own suffering and in others. So, as you said, a vision is so, so important. Robertson: I’m so glad you touched on that, that a vision can give us a calling to see where we can go. It can motivate us, push us, drive us to do all that we can to realize it, you know, if I have a vision for my family. To care for my family. If [00:13:00] I have a vision for my country, if I have a vision for planet Earth, that can motivate me to do all I can do to make that really happen. Robertson: So right now there are so many challenges facing humanity, climate disasters. Oh my, I’m here in Swanno where we’ve had a terrible hurricane in 2024. We’re still recovering from it. Echo side, you know, where so many species are dying of plants and animals. It’s, it’s one of the great diebacks of in evolution on earth, oligarchic, fascism. Robertson: Right now, we’re in the midst of it in my country. I can’t believe it. You know, you’re, you’re on 81. I, I thought I was, gonna die and still live in a country that believed in democracy and freedom and justice. And so now here we, I have to face what can I do about oligarchic, fascism and social and racial and gender injustice. Robertson: Other challenges, warfare. And here we are in this crazy, monstrous war [00:14:00] in the Middle East. You know, what can we do? What can I unregulated? Artificial intelligence very deeply concerns me. we’ve gotta regulate artificial intelligence so it doesn’t hurt humans and the earth. Robertson: It doesn’t just take care of itself. So, you know, it’s easy Gissele to be despairing and to give up, you know, particularly at this moment. But actually at any time in our life, we’re always tempted to say, oh, well, things will be okay, or There’s nothing I can do, you know, but neither of those is true. Robertson: There are things we can do. We can stop and breathe and continue doing what we can where we are. with what we have and who we are. We do not have to be stopped by despair or by cynicism or by hopeism. We don’t. So thank you for that question about vision. I vision still wakes me up every day and calls me forward. Robertson: I’m sure it does. You as well. Gissele: Yeah. I [00:15:00] mean, without vision, it’s like you don’t have a map to where you’re going to, right.what’s our destination if we don’t have a vision? And so this is for me, why I loved your book so much. you are helping us give a vision Gissele: I mean, the alternative is what is the alternative? there’s my next question. What happens to a society that abandons compassion? Robertson: Exactly. Well, I sort of touched on it before. it falls into ignorance and into greed. Wanting more wealth, more power. for me for my tribe and, and falls into hatred, falls into fear, falls into violence, and that’s happening now, she said. Robertson: But I love what Thich Nhat Hahn reminds us of, of is that if there is no mud, there is no lotus. And that, that means is, you know, if there is no suffering, there can be no compassion . So without suffering and ignorance, there is no compassion or wisdom, because suffering calls us to relieve it. when I see [00:16:00] my wife or children in pain, I want to help them. Robertson: or when I see others, neighbors, you know, during the pandemic, our neighbors took food and water to each other. You know, after the hurricane, neighbors brought us water. suffering calls the best from us, it can, it can also call, call other things. But again, there’s no mud. Robertson: The lotus cannot grow. So we can continue the journey step by step and breath by breath. So that’s what I’d say for now. but that’s an important question. Gissele: you said some key things including that, people have a choice. They can choose to be compassionate, or they can choose to use that fear for something else, right. Gissele: But I often hear from people, well, you know, they want institutions to change. why are the institutions more, equitable, generous, compassionate and you know, like. I don’t know if we have a vision for what compassionate institutions look like, [00:17:00] what would compassion look like at that level? Robertson: Oh, that’s where those six areas you know, the compassion would look like practicing ecological regeneration or sometimes called environmental sustainability. You know, that we we’re part of the living Earth gazelle, We’re not separate from the earth . We breathe earth air, we drink earth water. Robertson: We you know, the earth. Hurricanes come. The earth. Floods come We are earthlings. I love that word, earthlings, and so, how do we help regenerate the earth as society? And that’s why, you know, legislation aware of climate change, you know, to reduce carbon emissions. Robertson: The Paris Accord, and that’s just one example, how do we have all laws for gender equality so that women receive the same salaries as men and have the same rights. as men, we gotta have the laws, the institutions you know, and the participatory democracy, that we have a constitution. Robertson: a constitution is a vision. of what we are all about. Why are, we’re [00:18:00] together as a country, so that we can each vote and express our views and our wishes, and that government is by foreign of the people. It is. So it’s, it’s critical, you know, that we vote and get out the vote again and again and again. Robertson: And to create those laws, those institutions they care for everyone. And the socioeconomic justice. we need the laws and institutions that give full rights to people of color to people of every culture and every religion, and every gender every transgender, every human being, every living being has rights. Robertson: That’s why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is so important. I’m so grateful that it was created earlier in the last century in my country our country cannot go to war without congressional approval. Robertson: Aha. did that just not happen? Yes. But it’s in the Constitution. the law says that we must talk about it [00:19:00] first. We must send the diplomats. We must doeverything we can before we harm anyone. War is hell. there are other ways of dialogue and diplomacy. Robertson: we can do better. But again, it takes the laws and institutions. Gissele: thank you for that. I do think that we have some sort of sense in terms of what we find doesn’t work for us, right? these institutions don’t work, they’re based on separation, isolation, punishment, and we see that they don’t work. We see that, like inequality hurts everyone. Gissele: We see that all of these things that we’re doing have a negative impact, including war. And yet we don’t change. What do you think prevents societies from becoming more compassionate? Robertson: if we’re in a society that if harming people through terrible legislation and laws and policies that makes it hard for people then have to either rebel and then they can be you know, killed. Or they have to form movements peaceful movements like the [00:20:00] Civil Rights Movement in my country, you know, with Martin Luther King leading peace marches and our peaceful resistance, in Minneapolis, the peaceful resistance to ice, so what one big thing that’s, that makes people think they can’t be compassionate again, is the, larger society, you know, the institutional frameworks and legislations and laws and government practices. Robertson: But even then, as we’re seeing, you know, in Minneapolis and everywhere, and Canada is leading in so many ways, I think I, I’m so grateful for the leadership of your, your prime minister, calling the world thatwe must not let go of the international rules rules based international practices that we’ve had for the last 80 years, my whole life. Robertson: You know, we’ve had the, the UN and the international rules and now some powers want to throw those out, but no, no, we are gonna say no. we’re [00:21:00] surrounded by forces of wealth and power as we know. And however we can each do what we can to care for those near hand, far away, the least the last, and the last for ourselves, moment by moment. Robertson: Breath, breath by breath. And sometimes we, the people can change history and the powerful can choose compassion. And, we’ve changed history many times. We’ve created democracy. We, the people who have created civil right. Universal education and healthcare of the UN and much more. Robertson: you touched a moment ago on the pillars of a compassionate civilization. You know, there are 17 UN sustainable development goals, as you know, but I decided 17 was a big number, so I thought, why don’t we just have six? That’s why my book, it has six arenas of transformation for ease of memory and work. Robertson: and they are environmental sustainability, gender equality, socioeconomic justice, participatory governance, cultural tolerance, peace and nonviolence. So modern [00:22:00] societies can be prevented from being compassionate also by Negative emotions as we were talking about, of ignorance, greed, hatred, and violence. Robertson: Greed thinking, I need more wealth. I’m a billionaire, but I need another billion. You know, I’m the richest billionaire in the world, but I wanna buy the US government hatred, violence. So these all for me, all back into the Buddhist wisdom of the belief that I’m a separate self. Robertson: Therefore, all that’s important is my ego. Hell no, that’s wrong. You know, my ego is not separate. When I die, my ego’s gone. You know, all that’s gonna be left when I die, or my words and my actions, my actions will continue forever. my words will continue forever. May I, ego? No. So the, if I believe my ego is all there is, and I can be greedy and hateful and fearful and violent, but ego, unlimited pleasure and narcissism, fear of the other, ignorance of cause and effect, these don’t have to drive us. So [00:23:00] structures and policies based on negative emotions and the delusion of a separate self and harm for the earth. We don’t have to live that way. We don’t have to believe propaganda and misinformation and ignorance, and we can provide the education needed and the experience. Robertson: We don’t have to accept wealth hoarding. You know, why do we have billionaires? Why isn’t $999 million enough? Why doesn’t that go to care for everyone and to care for the earth? So again, we have to let go of wealth hoarding of power hoarding. Robertson: we don’t need all that wealth. We don’t need all that power. We can, we can care for each other. We can care for the earth. Gissele: There, there are so many amazing things that you said. I wanted to touch on two the first one is that I was having a conversation with an indigenous elder, and he said to me, you know, that greed is just a fear of lack, right? Gissele: And it really stopped me in my tracks because, when we see people hoarding stuff in their [00:24:00] house, we think, well, that’s abnormal. And yet we glorify the hoarding of wealth. But it isn’t any different than any sort of other mental health issue in terms of hoarding. And so that really got me to think about the role of fear. Gissele: And, if somebody’s trying to hoard money, it’s not getting to the root of the problem, issue. It’s never gonna be enough because they’re just throwing it into an empty hole. It’s a a billion Jillian, it’s never gonna be enough because it’s never truly addressing the problem. Gissele: But one of the things that you said as we were chatting is, that the wealthy, the elite, they can choose compassion, they can always choose it, which is an amazing insight. And yet I wonder, you know, in terms of people’s perspectives of compassion and power, do you think that the two go hand in hand or can they go hand in hand? Gissele: Because I think there might be some worries around, well, if I’m more compassionate, then I’m gonna be, taken advantage of, I’m gonna be, a mat. what is your [00:25:00] perspective? Robertson: Oh, I agree with everything you said and your question is so, so important. Thank you so much. Robertson: there are billionaires and then there are billionaires like Warren Buffet. Look, he’s given. Tens of billions of dollars away, hundreds of billions of dollars away, and other billionaires have done that. And then there are the billionaires, who think 350 billion isn’t enough. Robertson: You know, I need more. Well, that’s crazy. That is sick. That is sad that, that is a disease. And we have to help those people. I feel compassion for billionaires who think they need another 10 billion or another a hundred billion, or they need five more a hundred million dollars yachts, or they need another 15 $200 million houses around the world and that that is very sad. Robertson: And that they’re really suffering. They’re confused. Yeah. They forget what it means to be human. They’ve forgotten what it needs to be. An earthling that we’re just here for a moment. Gissele: Agree. Robertson: We’re just here for a moment, for a [00:26:00] breath, and we’re gone. Breathe in, we’re here, breathe out, we’re gone. And so we can stop. Robertson: We can become aware of that fear, as you said. We can take good care of that fear. I love the way Thich Nhat Hahn says. He says, hello, fear, welcome back. I’m gonna take good care of you. Fear. I’m gonna watch you take care of you. You’re gonna Evolve. ’cause everything is impermanent. Everything changes. So fear will change. Robertson: Fear can change. Fear always changes It evolves into Another emotion, another feeling, So let it go. Let it go. In the truth of impermanence. ’cause everything is impermanent. Fear is impermanent. So we also can remember the truth of inter being that I am part of what I fear, I am part of. Robertson: This current federal administration. You know, I’m part of the wealthy elite, and it is part of me. I fear of the US administration right now, but it is part of [00:27:00] me and I’m part of it. I fear climate change, but it is part of me. I’m part of it. I fear artificial intelligence , unregulated. I fear old age, but boys, I’m 81 and a half, it’s here. Robertson: So I’m gonna take care of it. I’m gonna say, Hey, old man, I’m gonna take care of you. And they’re all me. There’s no separation. I love Thich Nhat Hahn’s word. We enter are, we enter are now, how can I stop, become aware of fear, breathe in and out, and know the truth of inter being and impermanence and accept it. Robertson: Care for it. get out to vote, care for the self, write , speak, do what I can to care for what I can. My family, my neighbors, my city, my county, my country, my world. And everything changes. Everything passes away. Everything comes in and out of [00:28:00] being, what happened to the Roman Empire? Gissele: Mm, Robertson: what’s happening to the American Empire. Everything comes in and goes out like a breath, breathing in and breathing out. And then everything transforms into what is next? What is next? what is China going to bring? Ah, there is so much that we don’t know, Robertson: I love Thich Nhat Hahn’s teaching that. when we become aware of a negative emotion, we should Stop, breathe, smile. And then say, oh, welcome. Fear. Welcome back. Okay, I’m gonna take care of you. Okay, we’re in this together. Robertson: And then you just, you keep breathing in awareness and gratitude and things change. Your grandkid calls you, your baby calls you, your dog, your cat. You see the clouds, you see the earth, the sun. You see a star. You realize you’re an [00:29:00] animal. You know the word animal means breath. Robertson: We are animals. ’cause we breathe. We’re all breathing. So I love that. You know it. I love to say I am an animal. ’cause I, you know, we, human beings are often not, we’re not animals. We’re superior To animals, you know? Right. we are animals, that’s why we love our dogs and cats and we can love our, the purposes and the elephants and the tigers and the mountain lions and, and the cockroaches and the chickpeas and the cardinals we are all animals. Robertson: We’re all breathing. So I love that. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that was so beautiful. I felt that also, I really appreciated the practice too. In this time when we, like so many us are, are feeling so much fear and so much uncertainty and not knowing how things are gonna pan out, to just take a moment to breathe and reconnect to our true selves, I think is so, so fundamental. Gissele: And I hope that listeners are also doing it with us. you know, as I have [00:30:00] conversations with people around the world we talk a lot about, the way that the systems are set up, the institutions. Gissele: And it took a lot of hard work for me to realize that we are the institutions, just like you said, so the institutions are made up of people. And I was so glad to see that in your book, that you clearly say, you know, like it’s about people. It’s about us. It’s like we make up these institutions, you know? Gissele: And when I’ve looked at myself, I’ve asked myself, who do I wanna be? What do I really, truly wanna embody? And my greatest wish for this lifetime is to embody the highest level of love and to truly get to the point where I love people like brothers and sisters, that I care for them and that we care for one another. Gissele: And yet, there are times when I wanna act from that place, but the fear comes up, the not wanting or not trusting or believing when the fear comes up, how can compassion really help us change ourselves so that we can create a [00:31:00] different world? Robertson: What you said is so beautiful, and your question is so powerful. Thank you. Yes. And I’m gonna get personal here. we can do what we can, we can take care of ourselves, we can take care of others as we can, but we shouldn’t beat ourselves up when we can’t. You know? Robertson: So I, here I’m 80, I’m over 81, and I have issues with balance and walking, and I have some memory issues and some low energy issues. So I have to be kind to myself. I, so I’ve just decided that writing is my main way of caring for the world. That’s why I publish one or two essays a week on Substack, on Compassionate Conversations for 55 countries in 38 states. Robertson: And so I said, you know, I used to travel around the world all the time. Not anymore. I don’t even want like to travel around the county. Robertson: Anyway, I’m an elder , so I have to say , okay, elder, be kind to [00:32:00] yourself, but also do everything you can, write everything you can speak with Gazelle if you can. Robertson: I also have to decide who I’m gonna care for. I’ve decided I’m gonna care for my wife who just turned 70 and my two kids and my two grandkids, my daughter-in-law, my cousins and nieces and nephews, my neighbors here and North Carolina. Robertson: The vulnerable, you know, I give to nonprofits who help the hungry and the homeless to friends and to people around the world through my writings and teachings And so the other day I drove to get some some shrimp tacos for my wife and me for dinner. Robertson: And a lady came up and she had disheveled hair. And she just stood by my car and I put the window down a little and she said. can you drive me to Black Mountain? that’s not where we were. I was in another town. ‘ cause I’m out of my medicine. Robertson: She just, out of the blue said, stood there and said that. And I thought, [00:33:00] oh, oh, hmm. Oh, so, oh yes. So I, I wanted to say, but who are you? How are you? Do you live here? Do do you have any friends or family? Do you, you, can I give you some money? Do you have, but I was kind of, I was kind of struck dumb, you know? Robertson: I thought, oh, oh, what should I do? And so I said, oh, I’m so sorry I don’t live in Black Mountain. And she said, oh. And she just turned and walked away and she asked two other cars and they said no. And then she walked away. And then she walked away. I thought, oh, Rob, Rob, is she okay? Does she have a family? Robertson: Did she have a house? What if she doesn’t get her medicine? How can she walk to that town? Could you have driven her and delayed taking dinner home to your wife? And then I said, but I don’t know. And then I thought, oh, but she’s gone. And I then I said, okay, Rob. Okay, Rob, [00:34:00] you’ve lived 81 years. You’ve cared for people in the UN in 170 countries. Speaker 3: Yeah. Robertson: And you’ve been in 55 countries, you’re still writing every week, you’re taking care of your neighbors and family and friends. Don’t beat yourself up. Old guy. Don’t beat yourself up. But next time, you know what Rob, I’m gonna say, Hey, my dear one, are you okay? I don’t have any money, but I can I buy you? Robertson: We are here at the taco shop, Can I buy you dinner? I would, I’m gonna say that next time, Rob. I’m gonna say that. and then I also gazelle,I’m gonna support democratic socialist institutions. You know, some people are afraid of that word, democratic socialist. Robertson: But you know, the happiest countries in the world are democratic socialist countries. Finland is the world’s happiest country. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Iceland, those are in the top 10 [00:35:00] when they’ve, when there have been analysis of, if you, if you Google happiest countries in the world, Robertson: those Nordic countries come up every year. Why? They are democratic socialist countries. You pay high taxes and everybody gets free college. You know, free education, free college, free health everybody gets taken care of in a democratic socialist country in the Nordic countries and New York City. Robertson: I’m so proud that our new mayor in New York City Zoran Mai is a democratic socialist. He is there to help everybody, but particularly those who are hurting the poor, the hungry , the sick, or the people of color, women, the elderly, the children. I’m so proud of him and I write about him on my substack and I write him Robertson: I he’s one of my heroes just like Bernie Sanders is one of my heroes. And Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, a OC is one of my, my heroes, CA [00:36:00] Ooc. So, and you know, I used to never tell anybody I was a Democratic socialist ’cause I was afraid. I thought, oh, they’ll think I’m a socialist. Hell no. I am now proud to say I’m a democratic socialist. Robertson: I’m a Democrat. I vote the Democratic ticket, but I’m always looking for progressives, progressive Democrats, you know, democratic socialist Democrats. because, you know, our country can be more like Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Iceland New York City. New York City is showing us the way America can be like a New York City. Robertson: I’m so proud of New York City and I used to live in New York City so as an old person. I can only do what I can do. and I’m not saying, oh, I poor me. I can’t do anything. No, no. I’m not saying that. I’m saying I can do a hell of a lot as this 81-year-old, it’s amazing what I can do, but that is why I write and speak and care for my family, neighbors, friends, the poor. Robertson: [00:37:00] Donate to nonprofits for the homeless and the hungry vote. Get out the vote. So yes, that’s my story. Gazelle. Gissele: I totally relate. I mean, I’ve been in circumstances like that as well, where you wanna help. But the fear is like, what if a person kills you? What if they don’t really have medication? Gissele: What if you get hurt or they try to rob you or they have mental health problems? Mine goes to protection and it is very human of us to go there first. And so, so then we get stuck in that ping pong in that moment and then the moment passes and you’re like, you know, was it true? Could I have driven that person? Gissele: And that would’ve been something I wanted to do for sure. But in that moment, you are stuck in that, yo-yo, when the survival comes in. And so helping ourselves shift out of that survival mode, understanding and learning to have faith and trust. And for me that’s been a work in progress. Gissele: It really has been a work in [00:38:00] progress. The other thing I wanted to mention, which I think is so important that we need to touch on. It’s the whole concept of socialism. So I was born in South America before I came to Canada and so I remember lots of my family members talk about this, there’s many South American countries that got sold communism, as socialism we’re talking about approaches that instead of it being like a democratic socialism that you’re talking about, which is the government, make sure that people are taking care of and that the people are probably taxed and provided for what would happen in those countries was that. Gissele: Everything got taken away. People were rationed certain things, and, it was horrible. it was not good, but it was not socialism. And there was many governments that took the majority of the money, then spent it on themselves, left the country, took it themselves, and so especially the Latin American community is very much afraid of socialism because they think back to that, the [00:39:00] rationing of electricity, the rationing of food, the rationing of all of that stuff, it wasn’t provided openly. Gissele: It was, everybody gets less. And so you have these people with this history that then have come to the US and think they don’t want socialism. They think democracy means that people aren’t gonna take stuff away from them, but that’s not what it means either. ’cause I don’t even know if like in North America we have a true democracy. Robertson: so thinking about reframing of how we think or experience democratic socialism, that it doesn’t mean less for everybody and in everything controlled by the government. It means being provided for abundantly and, also having the citizens be taxed more, which means we are willing to share our money so that we can all live well, Beautiful. Beautiful. Oh, thank you. Hooray. Wonderful. What country are you? May I ask where you coming? Gissele: Yeah, of Robertson: course. Gissele: Peru, I Gissele: [00:40:00] Yeah. Robertson: Wonderful. I’ve been to Peru a few times. A wonderful, beautiful country. And I, I lived in Venezuela for five years. ‘ cause I love, I have many friends in Venezuela. Robertson: But anyway I agree with everything you just said. That’s why I said what I said that I now can, I can confess that I am a democratic socialist. And that’s not socialism. It’s a social democracy is what it’s called. Yeah. That’s what they call it in Finland and Denmark and so on. Robertson: They call it social democracy. It’s democracy. But it, as you say, it’s cares for everyone and for the earth. We have to always add and the earth, ’cause you know, all the other species and, and the other life forms and the ecosystems, the water, the soil, the air, the minerals the plants, the animals. Robertson: and we have the money, as you said. I mean, if I had $350 billion, think of what taxes I could pay if the tax rate was, you know, 30%. [00:41:00] And rather than nothing, some of these, some of these folks pay, Gissele: well, I think we have glorified that we all wanted that, right? Like we got sold this good that oh, we should all want to be as wealthy as possible, right? And so we normalize the hoarding of money. Not the hoarding of other stuff, right? Gissele: And so we have allowed that, which gets me to my, next point, you talk about the environmental impact as part of a compassionate society, which absolutely is necessary. Gissele: And as human beings, we can be so lazy. We want convenience. We want to, have our package the next day. We don’t wanna wait. are we willing to pay higher wages? Are we willing to wait? Longer for our packages, like, are we willing to, invest in our wardrobe instead of buying fast fashion? Gissele: We don’t do these things and these have environmental impacts, and it also have human impacts, and at the end, they have impact on us. What can we do to ensure that, that we address that [00:42:00] complacency so that we are creating a fair, affordable , and compassionate world. Robertson: So important. Thank you. Robertson: It’s, it’s a life and death question. So yes, we should always ask about ecological and social impacts and take actions accordingly. That’s why I recycle every day. You know, some people say, oh, recycling is stupid. What do they really do with this, with it? You know, are they, are they really careful when you, they pick it up? Robertson: but I recycle religiously every day That’s why I support climate and democracy through third act. There’s a group that Bill McKibbon has started here in the US called Third Act. It’s a group of elder activists, activists over 60 who are working on climate and democracy issues. Robertson: So I’m doing that. That’s why I vote and get it out to vote. And as I said, I vote for Democrats and Democratic socialists. That’s why I write and speak and vote for ecological regeneration for social justice, for peace, for [00:43:00] democratic governance. It’s so critical that we keep questioning our actions like. Robertson: Okay, why am I recycling? Is it really worth the time? You know, deciding about every item, where it goes, and then putting out it out carefully and rinsing it first. And is that really going to help the world? ’cause you also know we need systemic changes, because you can always say, oh, but what the individual does doesn’t matter. Robertson: We need laws, we need institutions of ecological regeneration, and we need laws on caring for the climate and stopping climate change. So you can talk yourself out of individual responsibility when you realize that we need laws and institutions that protect the environment. Robertson: But it’s both. It’s both. what each person does, because there are millions of us individuals. So if there are millions of us act responsibly, that has, is a huge impact. And then if we [00:44:00] also have responsible laws and institutions that care for the environment as well as all people, then that’s a double win. Robertson: So I agree with you. We have to keep asking that question over and over and making those decisions and they’re hard decisions. We have to decide. Gissele: Yeah, I’ve had to look at myself like one of the commitments I’ve made to myself is not buying fast fashion. And so, investing in pieces, even though sometimes I feel lack oh my God, spending that much money on this, you know? Gissele: Yeah. It all comes back to me. if I am not willing to pay a fair wage, that means that the next person doesn’t get a fair wage, which means they don’t wanna pay a fair wage and so on and so forth. And then it comes back to me, you know, my husband has a business and then, you get people that don’t also wanna pay a fair wage. Gissele: It’s all interconnected. And so we have to be willing, but that also goes to us addressing our fear, our fear of lack, that we’re not gonna have enough. All of those things. And the biggest fundamental [00:45:00] fear, and you mentioned death to me, is the ultimate Gissele: fear That we must overcome I think once we do, like, I think once we understand that we are not, this human vessel. Gissele: that we’re not just this bag of bones and live in so much constrained fear that perhaps we could. really open up ourselves to be willing to be more compassionate . What do you think? Robertson: Absolutely. I’m with you all the way. Yes. We fear death because we’re caught in that illusion of a separate permanent self. Robertson: You know, it’s all about me. Oh, this universe is all about me. The universe was created 13.8 billion years for me. Robertson: Yeah. But it’s all about me and particularly my ego, honoring my ego. Building up my ego, praising my ego being, you know, that’s why I wanna be rich and famous. Robertson: Fortunately, I never wanted to be rich or famous, but that’s another story. We’ll talk about that some other time. But everything and [00:46:00] everyone is impermanent. When I realized that truth and it, it came to me through engaged Buddhism, but you could, you could get that truth in many, many ways. Robertson: That everything and everyone is impermanent. we’re part of the ocean. But the waves don’t last forever, do they? But the ocean lasts forever. Robertson: So My atoms, are part of the 13.8 billion year old universe. my cells are part of the living earth. Yes, they remain When I die, you know, go back into the earth. back into the soil and the water and the air but My ego doesn’t remain. What, what remains, as I said before, are my actions. Robertson: Everything I did is still cause and effect. Cause and effect. Rippling out. Rippling out. Okay. Rob, what did you do? What did you say? did you help that, did you touch that? Did you say that? so my actions and words continue rippling forever. So Ty calls that, or in the Plum Village tradition of engaged Buddhism, it’s called my continuation. Robertson: Your actions and your words [00:47:00] are your continuation that last forever as your actions and words will continue through cause and effect touching reality forever. So when my ego does not remain so I can smile and let it go. I often think about my continuation. You know, I say, well, that’s why, maybe why I’m writing so much and speaking so much. Robertson: And caring for so many people every day, you know, caring to care for my wife and my children and grandchildren and friends and neighbors, and the v vulnerable and the hungry, and the homeless, and the, and my country, and my city, and my county, and my, and why do I write substack twice a week? Robertson: And containing reflections on ecological, societal, and individual challenges and practices. And so every, week I’m writing about practices of mindfulness and compassion. So I’m trying to be the teacher. I’m trying to send out words of mindfulness and compassion so that they will continue reverberating when I’m dust, Robertson: So [00:48:00] I’m reaching out. In my substack to just those 55 people in 55 countries, in 38 states, touching hearts and minds and even more on social media. every month I have like 86,000 views of my social media. Why do I do it? It’s not just about ego, you know? Robertson: Oh, Rob, be famous. No, Rob is not famous. I’m a nobody. I gotta keep giving and giving and giving, you know, another word, another action, so I can, care for people around me through personal care, donations, voting, volunteering workshops, I’m helping start a workshop in our neighborhood on environmental resilience through recycling, through group facilitation. Robertson: I’m trained in, facilitation. I’ve been trained my whole life to ask questions of groups so they can create their own plans and strategies and actions. that’s some of my answer. Robertson: I hope that makes some sense. Gissele: Thank you very much. I appreciated your answer and it made me really think you are one of our compassionate leaders, right? [00:49:00] You’re, you’re kind of carving the way and helping us reflect, ’cause I’ve seen some of your substack, I’ve seen like your postings. Gissele: That’s actually how I kind of reached out to you. ’cause I was so moved by the material that you were sharing, the willingness to be honest about what it takes to be compassionate and how hard it can be sometimes to look at ourselves honestly, because we can’t change unless we’re willing to look at ourselves. Gissele: All aspects of ourselves, like you said, we are the billionaires, we are the oligarchy, we are all of these people. The racism that voted that in the, the racism that continues to show the fear, all of that is us. And so from your perspective, what do compassionate leaders do differently? Robertson: Yes. Well, it great question. Robertson: what do compassionate leaders do differently? Well, he or she or they. Robertson: are empathic. I think it starts with empathy. What are like, what are you feeling? What are you thinking? Robertson: What are you, what’s happening in your life? So an empathic [00:50:00] leader listens to other people. They see where other people are hurting. They care. They ask questions and facilitate group discussions, enable group projects. They let go of self-importance, you know, that it’s not all about me. Robertson: They let go of narcissism. They let go of, the ego project. They help others be their greatness. They care for their body mind so that they can care for others. and they donate and vote and recycle and more and more and more and more. did you know in Denmark. In elementary school every week, children are taught empathy. Robertson: You know, they have courses on empathy, Robertson: when I was growing up, I,didn’t have courses in school on empathy in church school, you know, in my Sunday school at, in my church. I was taught to love my neighbor and to love everyone, and that God was love. But in school, in my elementary [00:51:00] school and junior high and high school, we didn’t talk about things like empathy and compassion. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I did know about Denmark ’cause my daughter and I are co-writing a book on that particular topic. The need to continue to teach love and compassion in, Gissele: being a global citizen. Right? And, and I’m doing it with her perspective because she just graduated high school, so she has like the fresher perspective, whereas mine’s from like many moons ago. Gissele: We need to continuously educate ourselves about regulating our own emotions, having difficult conversations, hearing about the other, other, as ourselves. Because that’s, from my perspective, the only way that we’re gonna survive. a friend of mine said it the best that we were having a conversation and she does compassion in the prison system and she says, I can’t be well unless you are well. Gissele: My wellness depends on your wellness. And that just hit me in my heart, like, ugh. Not that I live it every day, Robertson, Gissele: every day I have to choose and some [00:52:00] days I fail, and other days I do good in terms of like be more loving and compassionate and truly helping the world. But it’s a choice. It’s a continual choice. So this goes to my biggest challenge that maybe you can help me with, which is, so I was having this conversation with my students. We were talking about how. In order to create a world that is loving and passionate for all, it has to include the all, even those who are most hurtful, and that is really difficult . Gissele: I’m just curious as to your thoughts on what starting point might be or what can help us look at those who do hurtful things and just horrible things and be able to say, I see God within you. I see your humanity. Even though it might be hard. Robertson: Yes, It is hard. several years ago when I would hear [00:53:00] leaders of my country speaking on the media, I would get so repulsed that I would turn it off but I began practicing. Robertson: I practiced a lot since those days and I realized, you know. People who hurt, other people are hurting themselves. they’re actually hurting. they’re suffering. People who hurt others have their own suffering of, they’re confused. they’ve forgotten what it means to be human. Robertson: They’re, full of, greed, of their own fears, all about me. Maybe they’re filled with hatred they become violent. they’re suffering. I still find it very difficult to read or listen to certain people. Robertson: But what I do is I stop and I breathe and I smile and I say, okay. Robertson: I care. I’m concerned about you. I don’t know what I can do, but I am gonna do everything I can to care for the people, being hurt, you know, like my fellow activists in [00:54:00] Minneapolis are doing, or elsewhere, we could mention many places around the world where people are risking their own lives. Robertson: You know, in Minneapolis, two activists were killed, Ms. Good Renee Good, and Alex Pretty were killed because they went beyond their fear, you know? they got out there in the street because the migrants were being hurt and they got killed. Robertson: So, you know, At some point you have to come to terms with your own death, I don’t know if I have a, a minute to go or 20 years, I still have to let go. And so how do I care for my wife, my family, my friends, my neighbors my country, the vulnerable, the homeless, the hungry, and, as you said, for the wealthy and powerful who are hurting others, you know, starting wars attacking migrants, killing activists. Robertson: It’s hard. You know? So I have to say, I love the story of [00:55:00] when during the Vietnamese war Thich Nhat Hahn and his monks. They did not take sides. They did not say we’re on the side of the Vietnamese or the us. They did not take a side in the war. This is hard for me ’cause I, I usually take sides. Robertson: The practice was, okay, we’re not going to support we’re Vietnamese or the us. Were going to care for everyone. So they just went out caring for people who were getting hurt and during the war, people who were hungry, people who needed food, people who were bleeding, Robertson: So they decided their role was to care for those who were hurt not to attack. To say, I’m for the blue and I’m against the red. They said, I’m just gonna, care . Like, the activists in Minnesota, They’re, they’re not attacking ice, they’re singing to ice. Robertson: And so yes, we have to acknowledge our own anger. [00:56:00] I’m angry with these politicians. sometimes I want, to hate them, but I have to say, I do not hate you, my friend. You are confused. You’re so confused. You’re hurting others. So you’re so hurtful. Robertson: You don’t realize how you’re hurting others. But, I’ve got to try to stop you from hurting others. I’ve got to try to help those who are hurt and maybe I’m gonna get hurt, you know, because in the civil rights movement, if you’re out there doing on a peace march, you might get beaten up. Robertson: as I said, I’ve lived in villages, poor villages, and. Urban slums in several countries. And some people could say, well, that’s stupid. You could get hurt. You know, you could, you could as a white person living in a African American slum or in a Korean village or in a Venezuelan village, Robertson: So, you know, I say, was I stupid? Was I risking and I was with my wife and children? Was I risking the lives of my wife and children by living in slums and, and villages? Yes. Was I stupid? I mean, [00:57:00] no, I wasn’t stupid, but I was risking our lives. But I somehow, I was, called I wanted to do it. I said, okay. Robertson: but my point is it’s risky, you know? And you have to keep working with yourself. That’s why I love the word practice. Robertson: You know, in Buddhism we keep practicing, and I love your, the teaching of that you have on your website of Pema Chodron, you know, on self-love. You know, you have to keep practicing. How do I love myself? Say, okay, I’m afraid and I’m just this little white person, but or I’m this little old white person, but I’m gonna do everything I can and be everything I can. Robertson: I really appreciated the story of Han not choosing sides. I mean, you’re right. If we are going to see each other’s brothers and sisters and is is one global family, we can’t pick a side over the other, even though we so want to. Gissele: And, and I’m with you. when I think that there’s a [00:58:00] unfairness, when there’s people that are vulnerable or suffering, I’m more likely to pick to the side that is like, oh, that person is suffering. They’re the victim. But what you said is spot on. People that truly lovewho have love in their heart, like when you were raised with love. Gissele: You had love to give others because your cup was full. So it overflowed to want to help others, to want to love others. People that are hurting, that don’t have love in their hearts are those that hurt other people. Robertson: Mm-hmm. Gissele: They must because they must be so separated from their own humanity. Robertson: Yes, yes, yes. Gissele: And yet things are changing. You mentioned Minnesota, and I wanted to mention that I love that they’re doing the singing chants, and they’re not making them wrong. they’re singing chants like you can change your mind. You don’t have to be wrong. You don’t have to experience shame and guilt for the choice you’ve made. You can always change your mind. And in your book, you talk a lot about movements. Do you wanna [00:59:00] share a little bit about the power of movements and helping us create a compassionate civilization? Robertson: Oh, yes. Thank you. I’m, I’m a big movement fan. it started in college with the Civil Rights Movement. I realized, wow, you know, if a lot of people get together and do something together, it can make a difference. Like the Civil Rights movement. Gissele: Yeah. Robertson: And the women’s movement and peace movement. Robertson: And like in Vietnam, the peace movement, we could really make a difference if we get out in March. I think that being an individual or part of an organization that is part of a movement can be a powerful force. And so I focus in my life and that, that book on the six movements that I’ve mentioned, and those movements can work together. Robertson: And when they work together, they become a movement of movements. They become mom. Hmm. I like that because I I’m a feminist and I think that we need so [01:00:00] desperately we need more feminine energy inhumanity and in civilization. Robertson: So I’m a unapologetic feminist. And so that’s why I like that the movement of movements, the acronym is Mom, you know, and so it’s the Moms of the World will lead us like you. And so they’re the movements of ecological regeneration, socioeconomic justice, I’m repeating gender equality, participatory governance, cultural tolerance, peace and non-violence. Robertson: And you know, we also have the Gay Rights Movement, the democracy movement. there’s so many movements that it made a huge difference. So. I began saying that I, after writing the book, I said, okay,now my work is the work of the Compassionate Civilization Collaborative. Robertson: And I decided I wouldn’t make an organization, I it, wouldn’t have a website, I wouldn’t register it. I wouldn’t raise money for it. It would just be anybody and everybody [01:01:00] who was part of the movement of movements who was working to create a compassionate civilization. Robertson: So that’s what I did. And that’s where I am. I’m this old guy in my home. I don’t get out a lot. I don’t drive a lot. I just drive to nearby town. I have a car, but I don’t use it a lot. I don’t like to walk up and down hills. Robertson: IAnd sometimes I can’t remember things and I say, Hey, but look, you have so many friends all over the world and you can keep encouraging through your writing. So that’s why I keep writing, you know, it is for the movement of movements. Robertson: I guess that’s why I write. here’s something I want to share, something I thought or felt or something that I wrote about. And maybe it will touch you. Maybe it’ll encourage you. Maybe we’ll help you in your life. Robertson: I live in a homeowners association neighborhood. It’s a neighborhood that has a homeowners association. We’re 34 families and we have straight families, gay families. we have white families and non-white families. [01:02:00] We have Democrats, Republicans and Socialists. Robertson: We have Christians and Buddhists and Hindus. And so what I do, I say, Hey, we’re all neighbors. We all helped each other during the pandemic. We all helped each other after the hurricane. It doesn’t matter what our politics are or our religion or our sexuality, we’re all human beings. Robertson: We’re all gonna die. we all want love. We all want happiness. And We can be good neighbors. We don’t have to have ideology, you know, we don’t have to quote the Bible, we don’t have to quote Buddha. We can just be good neighbors. So we’re gonna have a workshop this spring And so we’re all going to get together down the street in this big room, in the fire station, and we’re gonna have a two hour workshop. And will it help? I don’t know. Will it make us better neighbors? I don’t know. Why am I doing it? I’m driven to do it. I’ve done workshops all over the world and I wanna do a workshop in my neighborhood. Robertson: I’ve done workshops with the un, I’ve done [01:03:00] workshops with governments, with cities So I love to facilitate. I love getting people together to solve problems together to listen to each other, respect each other, to honor each other. Gissele: so I’m just gonna ask you a couple more questions. But I’m just gonna make a comment right now about what you said because I think it’s so important. Gissele: Number one is I love that your neighborhood is a microcosm of what our world could be like . The fact that people got together to help and make sure that people were taken care of. If we could amplify that, that could be our world. I think that’s such a beautiful thing. Gissele: And the other thing that I think is really fundamental is that even through your life, you are showing us that some people are going to go pickett. And that’s okay. Some people are gonna write blogs to help us, and that’s okay. Some people are gonna do podcasts, and that’s okay. There are things that people can do that don’t have to look exactly the same. Gissele: Some people are going to have more courage, and they’re going to put their bodies in front and potentially get hurt. Other people, maybe they can’t do [01:04:00] that. So there are many different ways to help. The other thing that you said that was really, really key is the importance of moms . And that was one of the things that really touched me about your book, the acronym. Gissele: I was like, oh my God, I so resonate with this. Because I do feel that we need more feminine energy. We really kind of really squash the feminine energy. But the truth of the matter is we need more because fundamentally, nurturance is a mother energy is a feminine energy. Gissele: Compassion’s a feminine energy. Yes, yes, yes, Robertson: yes, yes, Gissele: so if I can share my story. Last night I was at hockey game. My son was playing hockey. Robertson: Mm-hmm. Gissele: And our team they don’t like to fight. Gissele: We play our game and we have fun and we’re good. And so the previous teams that were there, it was under Youth 15, most of the game was the kids fighting. And taking penalties. And so the game ends, the people come off the ice and two men that are starting to get like into a fight [01:05:00] now, woman got in front of them. Gissele: Wow. and said, we all signed a form that said, this is just a game. Remember who this is for? even though she was elevated, she totally stopped that fight between two men that we were not small. And So it was, it was really interesting. Robertson: Wonderful. Gissele: it was a woman who actually stopped a fight Gissele: It’s the feminine power. And that doesn’t mean, and I wanna make this clear, that doesn’t mean that men have to be discarded or have to be treated the same way that women are treated. ’cause I think that’s a big fear. That’s a big fear that some white males have. It’s no, you don’t have to be less than, Robertson: right. Robertson: We need Gissele: to uplift the feminine energy. So there’s a balance. ’cause right now we’re not balanced. Robertson: Exactly. Exactly. Oh, boy. Am I with you there? there’s a whole section in my book, as you noticed on gender equality I’m gonna read a tribute to Mothers I. Robertson: Tribute to Mothers Giving Birth to New Life, nurturing, [01:06:00] sustaining, guiding, releasing, launching, affirming Love. Be getting Love a flow onwards. Mother Earth, mother Tree, mother Tiger, mother Eve. My grandmother’s Sally and Arie, my mother, Mary Elizabeth, my children’s mother, Mary, my grandchildren’s mother, Jennifer, my grandchildren’s grandmothe

Ep. 223 | Four solid years since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, integral thinkers Kateryna Yasko and Vytautas Bučiūnas relate what life in Ukraine is like—emotionally, physically, spiritually. Far from what you might expect of a conversation about the state of Ukraine after four years of war—far from being battered and downtrodden—this is a story of resilience, resourcefulness, courage, and accelerated human development. Kateryna likens Ukraine to a living laboratory of transformation—with everyone united in the fight to preserve democracy and their identity as a nation, “the social fabric is strong, the resilience is astonishing…heroes receive a lot of gratitude from the people they serve.” On a personal level, Kateryna and Vytas share how they have grown in ways they wouldn't have expected: capacities have widened, appreciation of life has deepened, and experiences of profound joy arise in giving their all, together with their compatriots, for the future of the next generation.Leadership in Ukraine is in an evolutionary elevator, Vytautas, an integral leadership development consultant, tells us. Leaders no longer have the option to be reactive or habitual, and this has generated extraordinary creativity and courage in leadership in the military, business, politics, and social groups. Kateryna, a pedagogical psychologist, points out that human rights, democracy, and freedom are foundational for spiritual growth. People need to understand how to manifest their political self, she says, because if they don't, they will tend to escape into spirituality in a form of spiritual bypassing. “What can we do to help? co-host John Dupuy asks. “Come to Ukraine!” Kateryna and Vytas respond. Come experience and co-create the vertical development happening in this living laboratory of modern crisis. Recorded February 8, 2026.“The best way to practice spirituality is human rights assurance and activism; all the rest is secondary.”Topics & Time StampsIntroducing from Kyiv, Kateryna Yasko, pedagogical psychologist & Vytautas Bučiūnas, integral coach & leadership development consultant (01:01)What is the psychological and physical weather in Ukraine after 4 years of war? (03:36)Russia is using this very cold winter as a weapon, deliberately targeting infrastructure that supplies electricity & heat (04:08)The social fabric is strong, the resilience is astonishing (06:34)There's no choice—surrendering is not an option; the war would not end (12:10)Transformation has to include politics: assuring free speech and democracy comes before spiritual work (14:12)What forces are keeping Ukrainians together? (18:14)Humor is a big help (22:15)Leadership in Ukraine is in an evolutionary elevator (24:38) Courage, creative thinking, and gaming logic in the military (27:17)In Kyiv, with guns everywhere, the level of crime is very low (33:14)Putin is hostage to this war now; there are up to 50,000 Russian casualties per month (35:09)John shares his Ukraine! song and the accompanying YouTube video, created by Kateryna's daughter (36:44)Come to Ukraine! Experience the vertical development happening in this living laboratory of modern crisis (42:10)Measuring teenagers' developmental levels: Ukrainians are maturing faster, evolving faster (43:59)Donations are welcome (see recommended options under Resources below) (46:04)Passing the 1,418 days of war mark: this war has now run longer than Russia's “Great Patriotic War,” so glorified after WWII (47:28)Resources & ReferencesJames Hillman & Michael Ventura, We've Had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World's Getting WorseKeeping the Soul of Ukraine Alive: Maintaining Personal & National Ideals while Under Fire in Ukraine (Deep Transformation podcast)Валерій Пекар, Бесіди майстра Хай Тао про стратегію (Master Hai Tao's Conversations About Strategy by Ukrainian Integralist Valeriy Pekar – as of this writing, this book is not yet available in English, but here is a YouTube interview with the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btADES9iwfYUkraine! Song by John Dupuy (YouTube video)Daniel Kirkpatrick, At The Edge of Democracy: A Pacifist's Visit to UkraineRobert Kegan's Stage Theory of Adult DevelopmentSusanne Cook-Greuter, Stages of Human Development (Elevating Consciousness podcast YouTube video)Recommended Donation Sites – Support Ukraine!United24, the official fundraising platform of Ukraine initiated by President Zelenskyy, founded to protect, save, and rebuild UkraineCome Back Alive, the Foundation for Competent Assistance to the ArmyYou are also welcome to donate to a cause of your choice (i.e., evacuating soldiers from the front lines, buying rifles, saving Ukrainian culture, and more, through Kateryna's PayPal email below, full transparency guaranteed.Support via PayPal---Kateryna Yasko (Ukraine) is a psychologist and business trainer specializing in the development of emotional intelligence, trust, cooperation, effective communication, and peaceful conflict resolution. She is the co-founder of the civic and cultural initiatives Embassy of Ukrainian Sense-making and Prōstory. Her academic background includes degrees in international relations and law (MSc), business administration (MBA), and psychology (MSc). Kateryna's programs are grounded in Integral Theory developed by Ken Wilber, Nonviolent Communication created by Marshall Rosenberg, Speech Act Theory, and the commitment-based organizational culture approach of Fernando Flores. She holds certifications from the Center for Nonviolent Communication, Spiral Dynamics Integral, Harthill Consulting (Leadership...

In “The Cost of Truth,” Vince Fakhoury Horn speaks with Daniel Klein—a former religious Zionist settler turned outspoken critic of the ideology—about dehumanization, self-forgiveness, and the courage required to speak truth at the risk of losing everything (except one's humanity).

Why do so many relationships, despite the best intentions, end up stuck in cycles of hurt, disappointment, or disconnection? We search for "the one," hope for a soulmate to fulfill us, and cling to romantic ideals—even as we find ourselves repeating old patterns and feeling powerless when things get tough. The real challenge, it seems, isn't just finding love, but learning how to nurture it consciously and responsibly. What if the secret isn't about changing others, but transforming how we relate, both to ourselves and to our loved ones? In this episode, discover how to break free from the unconscious habits that sabotage intimacy, shift out of victim mindsets, and reclaim your personal power within relationships. Learn why conscious love is an ongoing practice—not just a feeling—and explore actionable principles for moving past reactivity into mature, collaborative connection. Through insights on emotional intelligence, responsibility, healing past wounds, and embracing vulnerability, you'll gain tools to create deeper, more authentic bonds and turn your relationship into a dynamic space for growth. Christian de la Huerta is a spiritual teacher, personal transformation coach, and award-winning author with over 30 years of experience. He has spoken at TEDx and led transformational retreats around the world. His books include Coming Out Spiritually and Awakening the Soul of Power. His latest book, Conscious Love: Transforming Our Relationship to Relationships, offers practical tools for healing and deeper connection.    Episode Highlights 06:16 Identifying and overcoming subconscious obstacles to love. 09:41 Approaching relationships as paths for personal growth. 11:18 Choosing conscious relationship through self-awareness and intention. 13:54 Differentiating emotional intensity from real intimacy and love. 19:04 Balancing self-agency and interdependence in relationships. 20:24 Letting go of the victim mindset and embracing responsibility and power. 23:33 Understanding personal power versus ego power in relationship dynamics. 29:00 Tools for cultivating deep connection. 32:26 Assessing relationship health through growth and transformation. 34:36 Integrating somatic practices and breathwork for healing. 38:06 Expanding relationship consciousness and integrating transformative experiences.   Your Check List of Actions to Take Take Responsibility: Own your choices and responses in relationships rather than blaming others or past experiences. Practice Self-Awareness: Regularly pause to check in with your feelings and triggers, asking yourself what's really going on beneath the surface. Move Beyond the Honeymoon Phase: Recognize that love is not just a feeling—commit to the act of loving even when the initial intensity fades. Stop Searching for "The One": Shift your mindset from finding someone to fulfill you to consciously practicing love principles in your relationships. Heal Old Wounds: Reflect on parental or past relationships to notice patterns you might be unconsciously repeating and seek ways to address them. Use Conflict as Growth: When triggered, resist the urge to react immediately; instead, get curious about the underlying source and use the moment for personal evolution. Communicate Your Needs: Express your preferences and boundaries clearly while also listening and compromising for mutual benefit. Integrate Mindfulness Practices: Develop habits like meditation or breath work to build present-moment awareness and emotional regulation in your daily life and relationships.   Mentioned Conscious Love: Transforming Our Relationship to Relationships (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book) Committed: A Love Story (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book) The power of breath: Christian de la Huerta at TEDxCoMo (YouTube link) (video) Ken Wilber (website) A Course in Miracles (*Amazon link) (book) 12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)   Connect with Christian de la Huerta Websites: soulfulpower.com Facebook: facebook.com/christian.delahuerta.1 Instagram: instagram.com/christiandlh LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/christiandelahuerta YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UC4hOzeGdhkTcRxOHkV9tfbQ  

In this conversation, I sit down with Trey Jones. Trey Jones is a former convict who spent 10 years in a Tennessee prison, and while in prison, he had a near-death experience that awakened him to a very new and different perspective.While tattooing, Trey was offered a bump, of which turned out to be fentanyl, that put him out for 18 minutes.After six cans of Narcan and three defibrillator shocks, Trey awakened to a new lens on reality. He joins us to share his current teachings on victim mindset, his insights on what he calls ‘inverted narcissism', and his wisdom as a coach - Trey moves now as a Personal Authority Coach under the moniker ‘PrisonToPurpose444' (He's the founder of ‘From Prison To Purpose') - He does 1:1 interventions to dismantle victim identity and rebuild authority. He lives a more grounded life these days, as a proud father with his partner and son in the Great Northwest. I actually met him at the edge of a forest - where a gathering of dancing energy healers, eccentric thinkers, connecting artists, and modern shamans met to evolve together, transmute, and dance through their dharma as one. Please welcome to the podcast: Trey Jones.For more details on what subjects we approached, check the time stamps below>Timestamps:0:00 – Morning rising ritual, meditation, and gratitude practice4:00 – Mobility work, cold showers, and light breakfast for energy7:00 – Why victim mentality is inverted narcissism and manipulation12:00 – Fasting as a mental game and building willpower like a muscle18:00 – The witness state in meditation and observing your thoughts23:00 – Prison life, the fentanyl overdose, and the near-death turning point28:00 – Instant perspective after dying and working through deep regret33:00 – Cutting ties with old energies while allowing redemption38:00 – God as energy, frequency, and universal consciousness43:00 – The double slit experiment and how belief creates reality48:00 – Identity shifts from manual labor to purposeful social media work55:00 – Christ consciousness and the current global awakening1:02:00 – Energetic healing, breathwork, and the power of mindset1:08:00 – Levels of consciousness, empathy, and reading people1:14:00 – Prison lessons on self-care first and real empathy with standards1:22:00 – Synchronicities, interconnections, and past-life loops1:30:00 – Pre-planned journeys, amnesia, and chasing your higher calling1:36:00 – Final reflections and message to listenersNotable quotes from Trey on the show:“Victim mentality is just inverted narcissism.”“Healing isn't being understood. Healing is becoming someone that your past can no longer control.”“Your willpower is a muscle. The more you exercise it, the stronger it is.”“I don't believe everyone has to die to find their true self.”“Empathy without standards creates weak adults.”“Staying hard is the quickest way to never change.”“The true you is the witness behind it all.”“We're all just trying to pick different versions of ourselves up because we're all a little piece of the puzzle.”“If you have a dream or a higher calling, just fucking chase it. Nobody's going to pursue your passions like you are.”“Everything in my life needs to change, because everything in my life up to this point led me to this moment.”“My purpose now is to offer the same perspectives I went through so people don't have to reach the same levels of rock bottom.”“Identity is your subconscious beliefs on who you are. You have to surround yourself with people who believe in the identity you believe in.”“We come down here and everyone gets amnesia. The beauty of life is discovering life itself.”Trey Jones turned: - a decade in Tennessee prisons - a fentanyl overdose that put him out for 18 minutes - and living in victim mindsetinto a complete life reset.Follow him hereInsta - @prisontopurpose444subscribe to stay up to date

Stephen Torrence joins Vince Fakhoury Horn to share his experience teaching generative AI in Bhutan and explore the audacious vision behind the Gelephu Mindfulness City — a million-person city being built by Bhutan's King to prove that mindfulness, technology, and economic development can coexist.

He studied law, found success as an entrepreneur, and has since spent almost two decades in the social sector trying to make the world a better place. Gautam John joins Amit Varma in episode 437 of The Seen and the Unseen to share his reflections on society, technology, gender, friendships, fatherhood, the crisis of masculinity and his journey towards figuring out the world and himself. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) Also check out: 1. Gautam John on LinkedIn, Twitter, IDR, Rohini Nilekani Philanthropies and Substack. 2. From Strength to Strength — Arthur Brooks. 3. An Ode to Meanderness -- Episode 434 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shruti Rajagopalan and Pranay Kotasthane). 4. The Final Episode -- Episode 128 of Everything is Everything. 5. Episodes of The Seen and the Unseen with Mohit Satyanand: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 6. The Surface Area of Serendipity -- Episode 39 of Everything is Everything. 7. Hikikomori. 8. Laayak. 9. The Loneliness of the Indian Man — Episode 303 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Nikhil Taneja). 10. The Loneliness of the Indian Woman — Episode 259 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shrayana Bhattacharya). 11. India Moving — Chinmay Tumbe. 12. India = Migration — Episode 128 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Chinmay Tumbe). 13. Dreamers: How Young Indians Are Changing Their World — Snigdha Poonam. 14. Young India — Episode 83 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Snigdha Poonam). 15. Of Boys and Men -- Richard Reeves. 16. Inside the Hearts of Men and Women -- Episode 118 of Everything is Everything. 17. Understanding Human Sexuality -- Episode 126 of Everything is Everything. 18. Everything that turned out well in my life followed the same design process — Henrik Karlsson. 19. Unboxing Bengaluru — Malini Goyal and Prashanth Prakash. 20. Malini Goyal is the Curious One — Episode 377 of The Seen and the Unseen. 21. Testaments Betrayed — Milan Kundera. 22. Ken Wilber's Integral Theory. 23. Pucar. 24. Everybody's Free To Wear Sunscreen -- Baz Luhrmann. 25. Pratham Books. 26. The Center for Internet and Society. 27. Bistecca Tuscan Steakhouse. 28. The Life and Times of Shanta Gokhale — Episode 311 of The Seen and the Unseen. 29. The Incredible Curiosities of Mukulika Banerjee — Episode 276 of The Seen and the Unseen. 30. The Life and Times of Gurcharan Das -- Episode 425 of The Seen and the Unseen. 31. Seeing Like a State — James C Scott. 32. Rohini Nilekani Pays It Forward — Episode 317 of The Seen and the Unseen. 33. Bridging toward Belonging -- Brian Stout's Substack. 34. Relational State Capacity -- Dan Honig. 35. Team of Teams -- Stanley McChrystal. 36. Emergent Strategy -- adrienne maree brown. 37. Mother Mary Comes to Me -- Arundhati Roy. 38. Stain -- Sarah Joseph. 39. Heart Lamp -- Banu Mushtaq. 40. Babel -- RF Kuang. 41. Quarterlife -- Devika Rege. 42. Brotherless Night -- VV Ganeshananthan. 43. Exhalation -- Ted Chiang. 44. The Glass Hotel -- Emily St John Mandel. 45. Nilgiris - A Shared Wilderness -- Sandesh Kadur. Amit Varma and Mohit Satyanand run a course called Life Lessons, which aims to be a launchpad towards learning essential life skills all of you need. For more details, and to sign up, click here. And have you read Amit's newsletter? Subscribe right away to The India Uncut Newsletter! It's free! Also check out Amit's online course, The Art of Clear Writing. Episode art: 'Figuring' by Simahina.

İntegral Teori- ifade insanı/ödün veren insan 00:08 – İntegral Teori ve Psikososyal Gelişim 01:30 – Olgun Yetişkinlik Nedir? 05:00 – İki Temel İnsan Tipi 07:15 – Değer Sistemlerinin Evrimi 12:10 – Ken Wilber ve Büyük Atlamalar 15:55 – Yeşilden Sarıya Geçiş 17:50 – Sarı: Bütüncül Değer Sistemi 24:40 – Zihin–Beden Ötesi Aşama 29:55 – Meditasyon: Nefes Farkındalığı Bölüm, integral teori üzerinden insanın psikososyal gelişimini ve “olgun yetişkinlik” kavramının zamanla nasıl değiştiğini ele alıyor. Claire Graves'in çalışmalarıyla değer sistemlerinin sabit olmadığını, belirli bir düzen içinde evrildiğini; Ken Wilber'ın katkılarıyla da bu evrimin daha bütüncül aşamalara doğru ilerlediğini anlatıyor. Yeşil değer sisteminin eşitlik ve kapsayıcılık arayışına rağmen sınırlı kaldığı, sarı aşamada ise önceki tüm değerlerin reddedilmeden yerli yerine oturtulduğu vurgulanıyor. Son bölümde, meditasyon ve farkındalık pratiklerinin bu daha bütüncül algıya geçişi desteklediği ve zihin–beden ötesi bir bakışın kapısını araladığı ifade ediliyor. Zeynep Aksoy, saygın bir yoga eğitmeni ve Reset platformunun kurucusudur. Web sitesi üzerinden canlı ve kayıttan izlenebilen dersler, üyelik programları ve profesyonel eğitimler sunmaktadır. Online Stüdyo üyeliği ile günlük çevrim içi derslere, geniş bir arşive ve topluluk desteğine erişim imkânı sağlar. Ayrıca Zeynep, katılımcıların hareket, anatomi ve farkındalık konularında bilgilerini derinleştirmelerine yardımcı olmak için yenilikçi Fasyal Yoga Uzmanlık Programı'nı yürütmektedir. Daha fazla bilgi almak ve sertifikalı eğitimlere katılmak için: www.zeynepaksoyreset.com

▶️ Connect with Richard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardatherton-firsthuman/   What actually happens when the sense of “self” disappears — and does it make you wiser?   In this episode of Being Human, I'm joined by Ken Wilber, one of the most influential philosophers of human development and the founder of Integral Theory, something which played a big role in my own intellectual development. Ken shares his early awakening experience, in which he experienced a complete dissolution of the separate self, and explains why spiritual awakening alone does not equal psychological maturity or ethical wisdom.   We explore the crucial distinction between waking up and growing up. And why this explains how many spiritual gurus and their communities can become so toxic. Drawing on decades of scholarship, meditation, and systems thinking, Ken offers a comprehensive framework for understanding consciousness and development. This helps us to appreciate the multiple vectors and methods of human expansion.    We explore: What happens when the self dissolves Waking up vs growing up Stages of human development Why maturity still matters Links: Ken's Website

Sebastian Siegel is a British-American filmmaker, author, and speaker. He directed the film Grace and Grit, based on Ken Wilber's book, which premiered at The Chinese Theatre IMAX and now streams on Apple and Amazon in the US, and on Netflix in most international territories. Siegel writes on consciousness and depth psychology, with work that often blends philosophy and dynamic story telling.Connect with Sebastian Siegel!instagram.com/sebastiansiegel1x.com/sebastiansiegelVisit his Website to learn more!http://www.DeeplyConscious.com Watch his Youtube Series: The Eight Questionshttps://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrsuqkj6LGLWyYzTyceEsjJoVeeJMl_qJ&si=Syp2iceWyg2FWdP3CHAPTERS:0:00 – Introduction1:58 – Meet Sebastian Siegel4:02 – Is Sebastian part of the CIA?8:02 – How Sebastian's life intersects with power, influence, and information9:25 – What being “stardust” actually means10:50 – Sebastian discusses information brokerage and why some knowledge is withheld13:13 – What is the President's actual job, and who does the President really work for?17:25 – Sebastian shares who he thinks the next U.S. President will be21:26 – What really happened on Epstein Island?25:02 – Sebastian explains his UAP photos and transhuman intelligence34:31 – Sebastian talks about Egypt, the pyramids, and ancient technology41:09 – Are we spending too much time watching influencers instead of taking action ourselves?45:41 – Will AI replace creativity and intellectual labor?50:44 – Sebastian shares how he maintains a healthy lifestyle without drugs, TRT, or stem cells56:19 – Sebastian explains why he stopped eating meat1:02:34 – Is there proof of God?1:08:09 – Why does pain exist in the world?1:12:18 – How modern physics helps us understand consciousness1:17:52 – Sebastian's new chess movie, Labyrinth1:20:52 – Connect with Sebastian1:21:48 – Outro

In this episode I am joined by British occultists, authors, and creative collaborators Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford. Alan and Duncan reflect on their decades of shared magickal practice and creative collaboration. They recall their first meeting at the secret society the “Illuminates of Thanateros” and muse on the gatekeeping and status games of the Chaos magick scene. They explain why they feel their emphasis on awakening and association with Buddhist writer and self-proclaimed arhat Daniel Ingram has contributed to their being shunned by leading figures in British occultism. Alan and Duncan take a deep dive into their controversial new understanding of Aleister Crowley, address criticism levelled at them, and reveal the idealogical mistake that drove Alan to withdraw one of his biggest public projects. Alan and Duncan also share their current practices, detail how to develop visionary capability, give their best understanding about how magick really works, and offer their advice for those who wish to enter the path of Western occultism. … Video: https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep345-magick-awakening-crowley-alan-chapman-duncan-barford Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast'. … Topics include: 00:00 - Intro 01:13 - Meeting at an occult secret society 06:29 - Formative experiences of group magick 07:36 - Should you join the IoT? 07:53 - The importance of group magick 08:19 - Timidity in magickal practice 10:20 - What does magick have to do with enlightenment? 12:03 - Jealousy in spiritual circles 14:38 - Peter Carroll vs Neoplatonism 17:11 - Alan and Duncan's contribution to Chaos Magick 19:07 - Feuds between religionists 20:33 - What kind of person is drawn to Chaos Magick? 22:25 - Gatekeeping and status games 23:10 - The best thing about Chaos Magicians 25:45 - Bad uses of Chaos Magick 28:38 - Being ignored by the magickal community 29:24 - Why were Alan and Duncan ignored? 30:!4 - Controversial association with Daniel Ingram 31:54 - Why did Peter Carroll dislike Alan and Duncan? 33:01 - How to understand magickal results and synchronicities 36:46 - How Duncan's practice has changed over time 40:13- Awakening and the structure of things 43:16 - Alan's current practice 43:57 - The everyday as a basis 45:07 - How to get started in magick 52:35 - Permission and confidence 53:41 - Developing visionary capability 54:55 - Alan's understanding of the path 01:00:32 - Pinnacle of practical magick 01:01:46 - Duncan's Goddess vision 01:03:14 - The basis of the path 01:07:50 - How magick works 01:09:00 - Criticism of Alan abandoning projects 01:16:14 - Sigmund Freud 01:16:57 - Why do people criticise Alan? 01:18:56 - One thing that really annoys Alan 01:20:53 - Resentment and psychological shadow 01:22:43 - Malevolence and denying enlightenment 01:29:26 - A dark occult conference experience 01:31:20 - Envy and counter-initiation 01:33:51 - Creative journey 01:35:49 - The toxic belief in cultural progress 01:39:38 - Ken Wilber's Integral Theory 01:41:10 - Daniel Ingram's pivot to science 01:42:19 - The spirit of the times 01:44:08 - Realising cultural chauvinism 01:49:53 - Desire to do something else 01:51:30 - Source of many problems 01:53:23 - The Crowley project 02:01:15 - Alan's academic approach 02:03:53 - Legal challenges 02:06:34 - Crowley on Chinese wisdom 02:09:05 - Dao De Jing 02:17:24 - Misunderstandings about the Dao De Jing 02:19:03 - Jung's (mis?)undersanding of Asian classics 02:21:06 - Western alchemy and spirit writing 02:23:19 - Two kinds of researchers 02:290:02 - Life of Aleister Crowley 02:31:28 - The Inner Church 02:33:28 - The Bornless Rite 02:35:18 - The Book of the Law 02:45:24 - Crossing the abyss 02:47:39 - Mad or enlightened? 02:52:20 - Liber 31 02:53:53 - Crowley's failures 02:55:57 - Jung and Philip K Dick 02:56:41 - Controversial take on Crowley 03:00:48 - Why follow Crowley's path? Music ‘Deva Dasi' by Steve James

They say laughter is the best medicine. And they're right, whether they're talking about everyday situations or even the everything-is nondual mind living in the sorrow of an everything-is-not-okay dualistic world. But who are they to begin with? Actually the show is not about them. Just the laughter part.  Oh, and, uh... Ken Wilber. We'll be dissecting some of what he says in this video:  Hurts More, Bothers You Less by, Integral Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TUr949kmZk __________________ Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational, or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

Welcome to Hot Topics! In this episode, our guest, Jason Lange, comes on the show to answer the following question: What does it mean to be a man? Jason, a men's embodiment coach and group facilitator, shares insights on how traditional definitions of masculinity—such as being tough and invulnerable—are outdated and no longer serve men well.Throughout the discussion, Jason highlights the mental health crisis facing men today, emphasizing high levels of loneliness, mental health disorders, and suicide. He argues that being a man in today's world involves embracing vulnerability and emotional presence, moving away from outdated notions of toughness.The conversation delves into the crisis of connection, where many men struggle to form deep relationships and often see other men as competition, leading to increased isolation. Jason also discusses the changing gender roles influenced by feminism and economic shifts, where women are gaining independence and men are navigating new roles in relationships.He advocates for men's groups as vital spaces for men to connect, share experiences, and learn to express their emotions and vulnerabilities. Jason emphasizes the importance of emotional regulation, noting that many men are taught to suppress their feelings, which can lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms. Additionally, he addresses the significance of men's physical health, encouraging regular check-ups and open discussions about health issues—such as prostate and testicular cancer—that can impact men's well-being.As the discussion unfolds, Jason touches on the inevitability of aging and health issues, urging men to prepare emotionally and socially for times when they may need support. Ultimately, this episode serves as a call to action, encouraging men to embrace their emotional and physical health, seek help when needed, and cultivate connections with other men for personal growth and well-being.Who is Jason Lange?Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide who helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. A certified No More Mr. Nice Guy coach, Jason has trained and studied with leaders such as John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, Jun Po Roshi, Tripp Lanier, and Ken Wilber. Many men are struggling right now as the old paradigms of what a "man" is supposed to be are no longer relevant or even appropriate. Men's work is where Jason and his team discover healthier ways to be in the world and shed the old "lone wolf" mentality. Jason began his men's work journey in his 20s after suffering from years of loneliness, discomfort in his body, and a deep struggle to create romantic relationships. Of all the work he's done over the last 20 years, men's groups have been the most impactful in changing the quality of his life day to day. It's now part of his mission for every man to be in a men's group, so they can feel healthier in their expression in the world, create more vital intimate partnerships, and be of service to their families and communities.You can find Jason:On the web: https://evolutionary.men/On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/evolutionarymensworkOn Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolutionarymen/On Threads: https://www.threads.com/@evolutionarymenOn X: https://twitter.com/menevolutionaryOn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/evolutionarymen/On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@evolutionarymenOn TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@evolutionarymenBook a free exploratory call with Jason to talk about what's going on in your life and how men's work and coaching might support you: https://evolutionary.men/talkJason has a podcast called "Evolutionary Men." Listen and subscribe here: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jQr495pFaJk3E9YnkUK9l?si=19aaef8c01d34a38Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtube.com/live/UjFTjPVjRUgOriginal date of episode: September 19, 2025Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/hot-topics--5600971/support.

Send us a textDr. Joel Rothaizer is a psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant and leadership development specialist. He's Board Certified in Organizational & Business Consulting Psychology, and a Master Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation. His book on leadership, called Clear Impact, has been strongly endorsed by Ken Wilber. The head of Integral Zen calls it the most integral book on leadership he's ever read.A  Few Quotes From This Episode“Helping leaders see the logical next step is the easy part. Helping them see why they do not take it is the art.”“Whatever you are biased toward, you lose the value of it when you over-privilege it.”“Everything goes better as a polarity. There is not a single value you can come up with that is not better understood as a polarity.”“People will integrate a tool at the level of complexity they live at.”“A polarity map is inherently developmentally energizing. It temporarily helps people think at a higher level than they would on their own.”Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeBook: Clear Impact by Dr. Joel RothaizerArticle: Guaranteed to Optimize Your Leadership Effectiveness in Minutes a Day by Dr. Joel RothaizerArticle: The Wake I Leave by Dr. Joel Rothaizer Article: Co-Responsibility: The Essential Foundation for Effective Performance Collaboration by Dr. Joel RothaizerArticle: Organizational Leader: Do You Really “Think Systems”?Book: Cloudless Mind: Conversations on Buddhahood by Dan BrownAbout The International Leadership Association (ILA)The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. About  Scott J. AllenWebsiteWeekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for LeadersMy Approach to HostingThe views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspec ♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.

Send us a textDr. Joel Rothaizer is a psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant and leadership development specialist. He's Board Certified in Organizational & Business Consulting Psychology, and a Master Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation. His book on leadership, called Clear Impact, has been strongly endorsed by Ken Wilber. The head of Integral Zen calls it the most integral book on leadership he's ever read.A  Few Quotes From This Episode“You leave a wake in every interaction. The real question is not just what kind of wake you left, but whether you even noticed.”“Thirty seconds before every conversation, set a task goal and a people goal. That one habit can catapult your leadership capacity.”“Performance isn't about you or me — it's about how we're doing together. Start a performance conversation with that and everything shifts.”Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeBook: Clear Impact by Dr. Joel RothaizerArticle: Guaranteed to Optimize Your Leadership Effectiveness in Minutes a Day by Dr. Joel RothaizerArticle: The Wake I Leave by Dr. Joel Rothaizer Article: Co-Responsibility: The Essential Foundation for Effective Performance Collaboration by Dr. Joel RothaizerArticle: Organizational Leader: Do You Really “Think Systems”?Book: Cloudless Mind: Conversations on Buddhahood by Dan BrownTed Talk: Everyday Leadership by Drew DudleyAbout The International Leadership Association (ILA)The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. About  Scott J. AllenWebsiteWeekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for LeadersMy Approach to HostingThe views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and explorati ♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.

What if the key to more impactful leadership isn't learning more but seeing differently? Dr Alison Maitland and Liz Walker explore how vertical development reshapes perspective, unlocks authenticity and helps leaders move beyond long-held labels. They share how expanding awareness leads to greater fulfilment, deeper connection and meaningful change at work and in life. Through honest reflections and practical insight, Alison and Liz show why embracing who you truly are is the foundation for leading with clarity and confidence. This is an invitation to step into your fullest potential to lead unapologetically.   KEY TAKEAWAY 'It's our mission: to lead unapologetically. To live and lead unapologetically, to be oneself, unapologetic and true in a more expansive way.'   BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS* Specific book titles weren't mentioned but the key thinkers whose work underpin Alison and Liz's discussion on vertical development include Robert Kegan, Ken Wilber, David Rooke and William Torbert. Immunity to Change by Robert Kegan - https://amzn.eu/d/0V9B0AF  A Theory of Everything by Ken Wilber - https://amzn.eu/d/bhB3Lji     ABOUT THE GUESTS – DR ALISON MAITLAND AND LIZ WALKER Dr Alison Maitland and Liz Walker run a business called Becoming, and they are on a mission to equip people to lead, unapologetically.  Dr Alison Maitland is a psychologist and coach. Her eclectic history includes working as an HR Director in blue-chip multinational companies, researching women's experiences in performance sport and creating impactful leadership development solutions for corporates and individual and team sport psychology solutions for sports clients.  Her recent book, Drop the Struggle, explains her approach to applying ACT in sport. Liz Walker is a learning professional, facilitator and coach. Her career trajectory covers 20+ years in learning & development teams in professional service organisations.  During this time she designed, developed, delivered and evaluated training programmes around the globe, with a focus on leadership development.    CONNECT WITH ALISON AND LIZ https://www.linkedin.com/company/becoming-international/ https://becoming.international/   ABOUT THE HOST - AMY ROWLINSON Amy is a purpose and fulfilment coach, author, podcast strategist and mastermind host who empowers purpose-driven leaders to boost productivity, engagement and meaning in life and work. Through transformational conversations, Amy helps individuals overcome overwhelm and live with clarity, building living legacies along the way.   WORK WITH AMY If you're interested in how purpose can help you and your business, please book a free 30 min call via https://calendly.com/amyrowlinson/call    KEEP IN TOUCH WITH AMY Sign up for the weekly Friday Focus - https://www.amyrowlinson.com/subscribe-to-weekly-newsletter    CONNECT WITH AMY https://linktr.ee/AmyRowlinson    BUY AMY'S BOOK (Shortlisted in the 2025 Business Book Awards) * Focus on Why by Amy Rowlinson with George F. Kerr – https://amzn.eu/d/6W02HWu    HOSTED BY AMY ROWLINSON   DISCLAIMER The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to the host and guest speakers. Please conduct your own due diligence.  *As an Amazon Associate, Amy earns from qualifying purchases.  

En este episodio los invito a empezar conmigo este programa de meditación titulado: "20 Enfoques de Atención hacia la Esencia" en donde en cada episodio les compartiré una introducción sobre el tema a tratar, una meditación corta y una reflexión final. Este primer episodio trata sobre la Conciencia Testigo. "Tu no eres tus pensamientos, ni tus sentimientos, ni tu cuerpo ni los objetos que puedes ver, porque te das cuenta de todos ellos. Que es lo que hay en ti que siempre está completamente presente? No reconoces acaso esa infinita conciencia testigo? Que es ese Testigo? Tú eres ese Testigo, la conciencia pura, el espíritu puro que contempla con ecuanimidad todo lo que aparece instante a instante." -Ken Wilber. Este curso es compartido por la Escuela Española de Desarrollo Transpersonal en donde curse el Segundo grado de Experto en Terapia Transpersonal. 

Jennifer speaks with Zen teacher Diane Musho Hamilton and facilitator Gabriel Kaigen Wilson about walking a spiritual path: not just waking up to our inherent belonging, but growing up into emotional maturity, flexibility, and courage.At the heart of the conversation is the tension many of us live inside—between enlightenment and the ego, urgency and presence, identity and oneness. Diane and Gabe offer practical, compassionate tools for navigating modern complexity without abandoning ourselves or each other.In this conversation, we explore:Why oneness isn't enough to navigate conflict:  why we need both the spiritual path (waking up) and the developmental path (growing up).How identity can be both a safe home and a tight boundary: why flexibility is essential for compassion, clarity, and connection.How reflective listening calms the nervous system; and becomes a practical, transformative way to stay connected through difference and polarization.Come join us for a light hearted conversation on how to trust the grit and wisdom of our entangled, modern life.  Links & ResourcesGet their new book Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross Training for An Evolving World Real Life Programs: training with Diane Musho Hamilton in emotional maturity, conflict resolution and leadershipLearn more about Two Arrows Zen, a practice community co-founded by Diane Musho Hamilton and Michael Mugaku ZimmermanLearn with Gabe (Wisdom Gym and Executive Team Development)Follow Jennifer's Substack and connect with her work Gratitude for this show's theme song Inside the House, composed by the talented Yukon musician, multi-instrumentalist and sound artist Jordy Walker. Artwork by the imaginative writer, filmmaker and artist Jon Marro.

Send us a Positive Review!Are you curious about what has happened in the minds and hearts of the Hamakers eight months post-resignation from the LDS church due to the waves that this podcast has made throughout the world for the past couple of years?  Well, one thing that happened changed Val's life and is now changing hundreds of Latter Day Struggles Podcast listener's lives too.  It all started the day Val opened up a  book that became a portal to an entire universe of deeper-stage LDS faith crisis healing.   This new orientation is psychologically sound, as spiritually robust as they come, and is somewhat involved; but its healing philosophy can be summed up in three words: transcend & include.  Join Val and Nathan in this Q&A episode, where they walk through some questions that you might have if you have noticed a pivot in their Friday Fellowship content and want to know what you might be missing. Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:41 Exploring Transcend and Include01:51 Addressing Listener Questions04:23 The Origins of the Podcast06:59 Navigating Faith and Theology12:06 The Middle Path and Personal Growth18:43 Introduction to Ken Wilber's Work28:22 Understanding Our Place in the Universe29:31 The Concept of Transcend and Include31:58 Faith and Consciousness Evolution34:15 Challenges in Embracing Past Selves42:51 The Importance of Compassion and Healing50:52 Podcast Structure and Community SupportSupport the showSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

What do a Brazilian retail strategist and an Indian industrial designer have in common? A passion for transforming complex systems through service design—and a shared mission to push the profession forward. In this episode, Lou welcomes Gustavo Vieira and Shreya Dhawan, two of the curators behind the upcoming Advancing Service Design conference, for a behind-the-scenes look at how service design is evolving—and how they're helping shape that evolution. Gustavo shares how his early work in franchising sparked a fascination with aligning brand strategy, operations, and customer experience, eventually leading him to service design as a more holistic lens. Shreya's journey began with product design in hospitals, where she realized the real challenge wasn't just designing a better object—it was improving the entire system around it. Together, they reflect on the emerging trends in the field, including the move toward systems-level thinking, new contexts like journalism and B2B, and the rich global collaboration shaping this year's conference. The conversation is full of thoughtful insight, heartfelt reflection, and a few unexpected gifts—from Ken Wilber to Picasso.

Send us a Positive Review!Join Val and Nathan in this 2.0 episode exploring how our human shadow parts can "leak" all over our respective "ladders of development" and what happens when (not 'if') they do.  This episode processes not only why we much integrate our personal shadows, but also how this work looks!  Nathan surprised Val by going off-script  vulnerably shared his personal struggle with incorporating feminine divine into his prayers, revealing a significant 'shadow' from his past that still affects him.Did you love learning about climbing up your own ladder of consciousness as others climb up their own?  If so, you're not alone.  Val has started integrating this metaphor into her group work and this concept is proving to be game-changing to many!  Groups are full at the present but jump over to latterdaystruggles.com and join their email list so that you know when the next one is enrolling! Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview00:51 Concept of the Ladder, the Climber, and the View01:08 Stages of Conscious Development03:13 Potential Pathologies in Development04:53 Intersection of Psychology and Spirituality07:09 Ken Wilber's Integral Theory13:15 Understanding Shadows and Blobs23:09 Real-Life Example of Shadow Work41:58 Concluding Thoughts and ReflectionsSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

Send us a Positive Review!Series Title: Rungs and Revelations: Ascending the Spiritual Ladder [Part II of II]Why is spiritual growth so incredibly hard and confusing? Why do some people stay put in the same world view forever? Why do some people seem to grow quickly and seem to be magnets inviting others to grow? Why do some people feel torn between emerging beliefs and paralyzing fear that the old beliefs might actually be right? And why do some people seem to trade in their old perspectives for new ones but seem to hold onto the same rigidity and judgment? If you want a map that can explain all of the messiness of the human growth journey…this episode is a good one for you! Ken Wilber's book "A Brief History of Everything"Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview00:13 The Ladder Metaphor for Growth01:02 Understanding Levels of Consciousness01:57 The Climber and the View02:50 Hierarchy in Growth and Transformation06:01 Pathology of Fixation at Lower Rungs16:09 Transcendence Failure and Its Challenges20:37 The Garden Narrative and Overcoming Fear21:38 Deep Neural Wiring and Higher Consciousness22:42 Struggles with Relationships and Transcendence24:46 Internal Personal Transformation29:51 The Concept of True Self33:10 Transcendence and Inclusion Challenges37:31 The Importance of Inclusion in Spiritual Growth47:47 Conclusion and Next StepsSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

Send us a Positive Review!How does one break down the intricacies of the spiritual transformation journey? Although different for each person, there is in fact a common thread that connects every person's onward and upward climb towards their greatest potential consciousness. In today's episode Val and Nathan introduce a way to think about this process using three key metaphors: the ladder of consciousness, the climber navigating between rungs, and the expanding view at higher levels. The episode sets the stage for a deeper exploration into the challenges of transitioning between spiritual stages and paths. Ken Wilber's book "A Brief History of Everything"Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Greetings01:12 Purpose and Focus of the Episode03:02 Transcending and Including: An Overview07:30 The Ladder of Consciousness13:36 The Climber and Critical Periods28:19 The View from Higher Rungs36:50 Challenges and Pathologies in Growth38:25 Conclusion and Next StepsSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

You've done the therapy sessions, meditation retreats, and healing workshops. You've read the books and tried every modality you could find. Yet somehow, you still feel stuck - like you're operating from old patterns that just won't shift, no matter how much inner work you do.Dr. John Churchill brings a unique perspective to this puzzle. With his Doctorate in Clinical Psychology, 15 years of training in Tibetan meditation practices, and founding membership in Ken Wilber's Integral Institute, he's spent 25 years developing integrated approaches to healing that go beyond traditional therapy.In This Groundbreaking Conversation, You'll Learn:• Why trauma isn't just personal - it's multi-generational, cultural, and woven into the fabric of civilization itself • How your nervous system carries imprints from ancestors you've never met, and why this matters for your healing journey• The hidden reason why individual therapy, meditation, and plant medicines can only take you so far before hitting an invisible ceiling • Why your traumas need other nervous systems to release - it's not a personal failing, it's biology • How the culture's dysfunction becomes your personal dysfunction, and what this means for lasting transformation • The difference between transcending your wounds and actually healing them at the root level • Why community healing isn't just "nice to have" - it's essential for rewiring patterns that formed in relationship • How cleaning up childhood traumas unlocks access to profound spiritual states naturallyThis isn't about adding another healing technique to your toolkit. Dr. Churchill reveals how our individual healing journeys are actually part of a larger planetary transformation - and why understanding this connection changes everything about how we approach our own growth.If you've ever felt like you're doing "all the right things" but still hitting the same walls, this episode offers a radically different framework for understanding what true healing actually requires. Listen now to discover why healing happens in relationships, not isolation.Connect with Dr. John:Website: https://www.planetarydharma.com/Instagram:@PlanetaryDharmaEmail: hello@planetarydharma.comConnect with Raj:Website: http://www.rajjana.com/Instagram: @raj_janaSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/22Hrw6VWfnUSI45lw8LJBPYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@raj_janaLegal Disclaimer: The information and opinions discussed in this podcast are for educational and entertainment purposes only. The host and guests are not medical or mental health professionals, and their advice should not be a substitute for seeking professional help. Any action taken based on the information presented is strictly at your own risk. The podcast host and their guests shall have neither liability nor responsibility to any person or entity with respect to any loss, damage, or injury caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by information shared in this podcast. Consult your physician before making any changes to your mental health treatment or lifestyle. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Vince Fakhoury Horn: The Flavors of Jhāna—I can't remember where I first heard this term. I think it was from you or from Kenneth [Folk].Brian Newman: Maybe we should start there. You came to me and said, “What should we call the retreat?” And I said, “Hey, you're the one who wanted to do it in Portugal—what should we call it?” You threw it back at me, and I said, “Can we call it the name of my half-written book?”So folks, this all comes from a story that's part of a lineage. This is a Kenneth Folk story, and it's his way of demonstrating Jhāna on the spectrum.Kenneth says: imagine you've got a bunch of strawberries. You crush them into a strawberry smoothie, and you drink it. What does it taste like? A hundred percent strawberries.Now imagine a glass of clear water. You take a strong strawberry extract in concentrated form, drop in a single drop. What does it taste like? Strawberry—but just one tiny drop.And Kenneth's punchline is, “It all tastes like strawberry, motherfucker.” His point is that it doesn't matter where you are on the spectrum of Jhāna. On one end, you've got the Pa'auk tradition—completely absorbed, so much so that a gun could go off next to your head and you wouldn't notice. On the lighter end, you've got Leigh Brasington, teaching Jhānic factors in a very Sutta-based way, or even lighter approaches. But Kenneth's point is: it all tastes like Jhāna. Different flavor, same essence.Even the tiniest drop in the ocean still tastes like strawberry. That's how I understood the story when Kenneth told it.Much of this dialogue centers around an upcoming 10-day meditation retreat on the same topic, The Flavors of Jhāna, that will be co-taught by Brian Newman & Vince Horn.Vince: The Flavors of Jhāna—I can't remember where I first heard this term. I think it was from you, or from Kenneth [Folk].Brian: Maybe we should start with that, yeah. So, Vince, you came to me and you said—no, I said to you, “What should we call the retreat?” And you were like, “Hey man, you're the one that wanted to do it in Portugal, what should we call it?” And you put it back to me. And I said, “Can we call it the name of the book—my half-written book?”And so this is, folks, this is all coming from a story that's part of a lineage. And I promised we'd tell some of those today. So this is a Kenneth Folk story, and it's his way of demonstrating Jhāna on the spectrum.So Kenneth says this: imagine that you had—glass—imagine a few different scenarios. You've got a bunch of strawberries, and you crush 'em into a strawberry smoothie. And you just have a pure strawberry smoothie, and you drink that smoothie. What would that taste like? And the answer is, that would a hundred percent taste like strawberries, because that's all that's gone into the making of the strawberry.Now, what if you just had a glass of clear water and a pretty strong strawberry extract in a really concentrated form, and you dropped one drop of that into a glass of water? What would that taste like? And then the answer is, that would taste like strawberry—with just one tiny concentrated drop.And Kenneth's punchline on this is: “It all tastes like strawberry, motherfucker.” I believe that's the punchline. And his point is, it doesn't really matter where you are on the spectrum of Jhāna. And we could say, when we say the Jhānic spectrum, we're talking about on one end we have the Pa'auk tradition, which would have you completely absorbed, so much so that a gun could go off by your head.On the lighter end, we would have Leigh Brasington, who teaches Jhānic factors, a very Sutta-based approach—or maybe some even less rigorous, less absorbed type of Jhāna. And Kenneth's point is: it all tastes like Jhāna. What are you talking about? It's just a different flavor. And how much of that actual flavor do you need to be able to recognize it?His point is, the tiniest little millionth part in a glass in the ocean would still taste like strawberries, so to speak. Let me know if you have a different interpretation of that story. That's how I interacted with it when Kenneth told me.Vince: Yeah, no, I have a similar interpretation of what he was teaching there. He was kind of pointing to this depth dimension of Jhāna, and using the strawberry analogy to point out that, yeah, these states are patterns of mind. And even if you experience them at a great depth of absorption or focus, it's still the same pattern. You can still recognize that pattern. And that's what we're calling Jhāna, essentially.Brian: Yeah. So that's the “flavors” part. And then maybe we could ask—let me raise a question to you then, Vince. So, what is Jhāna? We've got this interesting word with this weird hyphen over the A, and even how I think about it over the years has changed. How do you view what Jhāna is these days, Vince?Vince: Yeah, for me too, it's changed. And I guess maybe that change is interesting. 'Cause I imagine this is the case for you as well, Brian. Maybe for everyone who takes up a Jhāna practice. At first you experience Jhāna in the very specific way that you're practicing with it—so you've got whatever tradition you're working in, you've got the meditation object that you've been working with, you've got the instructions, and you've got a bunch of ideas about what is supposed to be happening, and what constitutes Jhāna. And you're using all of that to try to get into the states that are being described in that practice system.So for me, like when I first started doing Jhāna practice, it was with Leigh Brasington. He was the first Jhāna teacher I worked with 20 years ago. I went on retreat. Sadly, I left my sick wife at home in the apartment—because I didn't want to. This is how self-absorbed I was at the time—I didn't want to get sick, at the beginning of a Jhāna retreat. So I just left her there suffering by herself, to go off and get—Brian: So you could go get concentrated.Vince: Yeah. So that should explain the emphasis on wishing all beings to be concentrated. That's what I needed a little more of. But yeah, for me it was working within Leigh's system. And like you said, the emphasis there is on—well, it's on the breath, but also on the Jhānic factors. And I started to notice when they get strong enough, you can turn toward those factors and just get absorbed in them, which is like getting absorbed in the strawberry.So, long story short though, as I expanded to other practices, and I was doing more vipassanā noting style—which I now call Vipassanā Jhāna—and I was doing other techniques in more depth, I started to notice there's a deep pattern or structure, which is the same regardless of the practice I'm doing, which object I'm working with, or even what definitions about the states that should be arising.There's still something that's the same that happens. And for me now, I consider Jhāna to be just meditation—the most—which is the literal translation of the term Jhāna. It comes from dhyāna in Sanskrit, which is also translated as Zen.Brian: So it goes dhyāna to Chan to Zen in China, then over to Chan. Yeah. Jhāna, Chan, Zen. And the Zen guys diss Jhāna all day long—but the name of Zen actually means Jhāna, which is hilarious.Vince: They just don't talk about it because they're being it, I think. So yeah, that's how I understand Jhāna now. It's just—yeah, this is what we're doing. It's meditation. And whatever you meditate on does change the contours of the state and the experience. And whatever ideals you have certainly change your relationship to what's arising.Sometimes a state could seem totally inadequate, or like a warmup to something deeper. Whereas for other people, that could be the thing that you're aiming for. Just, “Oh, I'm in it now, I'm just going to rest or abide.” So I think for me, the world of Jhāna has opened up and expanded a lot over time.Brian: You said there's some similar quality. Could you say anything more about what that similar quality is?Vince: Yeah. Okay, so, let's explore that together. Seems it consistent? It gets a little tricky. Yeah, it gets a little tricky because I learned it first through the noting maps, and so I'll tend to notice—I'll go there to describe things, even though that doesn't describe the universal quality. But the stuff you did with the eye posture, like pointing to that, there's something there where it seems like regardless of which state I'm in, the eyes are moving through this sort of progression.Brian: Yeah.Vince: That seems to be universal.Brian: Yeah. Yeah.Vince: The aperture of attention and how broad or open attention is, and how much it includes the field of experience—that also seems to be a chief characteristic, regardless of the state, or the object I'm working with. What else?Brian: Totally concur with you. Yeah. The aperture. I often call it maybe the—Ingram also says the width of the Jhāna, which is a really weird thing, like what width, how am I going to measure the width? But it's the width of the visual field essentially, is what's being pointed to—what's happening in that space when the eyes are closed. Yeah.Vince: Yeah.Brian: What else is similar there?Vince: I was going to say something about the body, but the body's something that seems like it changes. Like, the experience of the body changes a lot depending on where one is and the depth dimension. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that, having experienced those sort of really deep exclusive states, where the body is described as having dropped off or dissolved.Brian: Yeah, so similar to—so, let's say I've been doing Jhāna for 15 years, probably Vince a little bit less than you, and we've come to a similar conclusion, I think. Which is: I think we're just talking about meditation here, and Jhāna's maybe a placeholder for what sounds like a certain technique, but really it's more than that.And like you, Vince, I've come to really feel that Jhāna just means meditation. And from that perspective, when we call a retreat The Flavors of Jhāna, it's The Flavors of Meditation. And our meditation community is called The Meditation Community. It's not—Jhāna just meaning meditation. I think that's totally appropriate.And so the more that I teach, the more what I come to see is we have eight discrete Jhānic states that are sort of pitched in an order of progression. It's linear. So you start with one and you go to eighth. It makes sense.The practitioner might find something really different though, which is on any given day, in any given emotional state, a different state might be more accessible to me. For those of us that wake up in the middle of a lot of suffering and dukkha ñāṇa, we might find that a blissful third Jhāna is really accessible—maybe for some reasons we can talk about later. So as we start to explore that, then it's like, you don't actually have to start at the first to get to the third, do you? You can drop in there some days.There's many practitioners that will tell you how they can just do a cold start right into the fifth Jhāna. And so if you start following that to its logical conclusion, I think what we start to say is: is it possible that whole meditation traditions have been built out around a single Jhānic state? And my answer to that is absolutely yes.So, Vince, and I think you and I were speaking the other day about what would happen if we said that the best Jhānic state was the sixth Jhāna, and that if we reified that to be the maximum, only, best thing. Many meditation teachers are only teaching the best thing, so let's be one of those teachers who's only teaching the best thing. What would that look like? And I think you and I agreed—that would look a lot like Ramana Maharshi, wouldn't it? That would look a lot like Advaita.“I am the world creator. I'm the world destroyer. I am just pure, infinite, boundless consciousness.”And so my current thinking around this is: Jhānic states could all be reified, so much so that an entire tradition could be built around the fifth Jhāna, or the seventh, or the eighth. And in fact, I think they have been built around that. And if you really love the sixth Jhāna—yeah, go do Advaita. It's probably your perfect cup of tea. I think we'd say a very similar thing around the fifth or the seventh or the eighth as well.Vince: Yeah. That's really interesting. So you're describing how perhaps entire practice traditions might be centered around specific states as the starting point, and then exploring those states or the domain around those states.Brian: Yeah.Brian: And then, so we're going to—we'll teach eye postures, folks. And I think some of—but to talk about that real briefly, it's about the aperture. So, a really tight aperture is a first Jhānic eye posture. Then it gets a little bit bigger with second, a little bit bigger with third, and then real big with this more expansive fourth Jhānic eye posture.So the really interesting question for the formless realm practitioner—ooh, in general I think this makes you become interested in eyes. And then you start to look at other practice. Maybe some of you have a Six Yogas practice, or Dzogchen, you've done Mahāmudrā. And if you start to think about that a little bit: where do my eyes go? Or where do one's eyes go when they do Dzogchen? You start to play with that a little bit and you realize there's a very distinct eye posture for Dzogchen.If you look at monks, they'll often practice Dzogchen with their eyes open. Their eyes are flittering all around. They're doing the eye thing. What would that correlate to, a state in our Jhānic arc? Maybe there's not really a Dzogchen-like Jhānic arc, I'm not quite sure around that. But each practice seems to have a discrete eye posture—most of which, I think, can be correlated to one of the Jhānic states.That's a lot of how I think about non-Jhānic practice these days: what is the closest thing that makes me feel like this in the Jhānic practice, and I'm using the eye postures to triangulate around that.As I said all that, it sounded esoteric. Did that sound really esoteric?Vince: Yeah, but for me I was thinking of something very practical—like in the Dzogchen tradition, when I worked with Lama Lena. Her basic instructions are to take a, like, a pebble or rock first.Brian: Yeah.Vince: Yeah. And as you practice what's called shiné, which is like calm abiding, you focus on the rock, or the pebble. And then there's another phase of practice in which you just remove the pebble, and then you continue to focus. And so that to me gets at the eye posture of Dzogchen, where previously you had something you were focused on, and then now you're asked to continue focus without that thing.So that's like a very practical instantiation of that, where the eye posture is clearly one that's meant to be open and spacious, but somehow stable and focused as well.Brian: And I love that. So what would that be called? That's samādhi without object.Vince: Yeah, shamatha without a sign.Brian: And we don't really talk about that in the Theravāda lineage—which you and I have done probably most of our practice in, Vince. There's no samādhi without a sign. It's always a sign. So that's just so fascinating. That's really deeply aligned with the yogic tradition, where they have objectless samādhi. And it's a totally different feeling to do that.And yes—look at something, then take the thing away, and keep looking at it. What is that, other than an eye posture?My story on eye posture is from a lineage—like a very deep practitioner. I'd love to share it with you. I've shared it before, but it's worthwhile to share again.So one of my main teachers, Sayalay Susīlā, who was the chief attendant for Pa Auk Sayadaw for a couple decades while he was traveling around Asia—she would spend time with him in Sri Lanka, several years there cooking his food and being his chief attendant. So very close to Pa Auk Sayadaw, really deeply absorbing his teachings.And one day—I learned eye postures from Kenneth Folk, and I didn't really need to talk about that with my Pa Auk teacher because she was very traditional. I didn't want to bring too much stuff in that might make her feel uncomfortable. But one day I accidentally said—I mentioned that I was using eye postures, and I said something about looking toward something.And she said to me in great shock, she goes, “You're looking with your eyes?” Eyes closed, but still looking. I said, “Yeah.” She goes, “You're looking with your eyes, like your actual eyes? Not some internal drifty—?” And I said, “Yeah, I'm looking with my actual eyes. I'm like taking a gaze.”And she goes, “If you're doing it already, just keep doing it.” I thought she was going to chastise me and say, “Never do that again.” But she essentially blessed the practice. So there was something there that was quite profound, I thought. Even from the Pa Auk tradition, they seemed to—I got a little wink, nod, nod on that one.Vince: Nice. I had a similar experience, although it turned out a little differently, with Daniel Ingram. I think I've shared this with you, Brian, where I was wanting to explore the kasina object, using the circular orb as a visual focus point. And Daniel Ingram had written the Fire Kasina book, and had been talking a lot about fire kasina in the years leading up to that.But I wasn't really that into the flame. I was wanting to do it, like, on my computer or whatever. And his instructions were very much to take the kasina object, close your eyes, and then see the afterimage, the eidetic image, and focus on that. And that by using that subtle— which I guess in your tradition would be like the nimitta—by focusing on that sort of internal nimitta, you eventually get absorbed. Well, you go through a process with that, but eventually it's a kind of a complete absorption in the nimitta.And I understood that, but for some reason I wanted to keep my eyes open doing the practice. It was just like a sort of intuition or an instinct. And maybe it was like a rebellious thing—“I'm going to rebel against what one of my teachers is telling me to do and see if he's right.”And I found, actually—this was so interesting—that moving through the third Jhāna, which he calls the murk, which for me I experienced as the kasina breaking apart and moving around and dissolving and being difficult to focus on—eventually my eyes actually settled so much that they were just barely open. It was almost like just a tiny slit of my eyes were open.And at some point it shifted into the fourth Jhāna, where all I saw was the color. It was like where I was looking and how my eyes were—and it wasn't like I was trying to engineer this, I was actually just moving through the state—and I found suddenly that my eyes were closed at just the right amount and looking at just the right place, that all I saw was the color from the kasina and I was completely absorbed.Brian: This is what was supposed to happen.Vince: Yeah, exactly.Brian: That's a full absorption. How beautiful. With eyes open. So amazing.Vince: And I was like, “Oh, my teacher's wrong. You can't just do this—or you don't only have to do this—with your eyes closed, taking the internal image. You can work with the external image the entire time, through the whole process.”Brian: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe that's a great transition.Vince: Sorry, Daniel.Brian: No, and we all love Daniel, and great respect for everything he's done. It's nice to have people trying different things out and telling us what actually works.Vince: Yeah.Brian: Maybe we could talk a little about the fact that there are a lot of concentration objects and what we will be offering in the retreat as far as what people might like to do around that.Vince: Yeah, that's cool.Brian: So folks, actually I don't have my list on me and I wouldn't be able to remember this because it's just too many, but there are traditionally 40 concentration objects. And the breath is one of those. The brahmavihāras, like loving-kindness, would be included. Things like contemplating the foulness of the body—contemplating pus, or contemplating urine or feces—would be considered part of that as well. And then you have all the kasinas, which are really traditional, and also contemplating the dharmas would be a concentration object as well.And so there's this premise that there are only 40, but every single sutta, or everything in Buddhism, there's always a sutta that says the opposite. And so what it turns out, there's a beautiful story where the Buddha meets a person, and the Buddha had the ability to see into people's past lives.And when he met this person, he could see this person had been a jeweler in a previous life. And so when the person came to him to request his object of concentration—which is how it was done in the old days, you go to your teacher and they give you the most suitable object, which is how it happened for me too in Malaysia, she will tell me what to do, I don't get to pick, she's going to pick based on her supreme knowledge, right?—and the Buddha to the jeweler, he says, “Clearly you were a jeweler in a previous life. I'm going to have you concentrate on this big, beautiful red ruby,” because he knew this guy was just going to be fully, really love the jewel, the ruby.So that—so apparently we could say the ruby is the 41st concentration object. But what I think we can actually take away from that story is: you can choose anything as a concentration object. Vince, maybe you want to talk later about your story—about Vince taking the number 1 as a concentration object on a full retreat, which is, whoa. How—where would that go? What's the sign of the number one, the nimitta? That's really fascinating.So there are all these different concentration objects. The breath is a wonderful object. I really promote the breath simply because I always have it with me. I don't need to take a bench with me. I don't have to have a cushion. I don't have to have a fancy colored thing. I don't have to have my computer. I can do it anywhere I am. It's always with me—the breath.And the breath produces this nimitta, this visual sign that allows us to get fully absorbed as well. Some of the other concentration objects wouldn't take one to that level of nimitta.And so for our retreat that's going to be happening on January 2nd, Vince and I's idea is we would like—we're very non-dogmatic teachers and we really like a spirit of openness and exploration—and we're going to invite all the participants to choose their object of concentration.I think probably, Vince, both of us will be teaching from one object. I'll be teaching from the breath for sure, because that's my preferred object. But you're welcome to choose a kasina. You could choose flame if you want. I think we could find a way to have you do a fire kasina somewhere if you wanted, et cetera, et cetera. Water, whatever you might like to work with. Vince, anything you want to add to that? Just how we're hoping to really keep it open for people on the retreat?Vince: Yeah, this is—it's an interesting experiment, because most concentration retreats, and I think in both of our experience, the whole group is being taught one object and is usually, though not always, doing one object focus together.And here, the idea is—what, yeah, we're all going to be focusing on one thing, but that one thing could be different depending on who you are and what you're resonating with, and where you want to go deep during that retreat. So it's a kind of interesting balance of the diversity of possible objects that one could be working with, and the universal experience of deepening with your meditation object.So we're going to be focusing on the universal patterns here, and the universal challenges that arise when trying to focus on anything—whether it be a jewel or a number, or the breath. And so yeah, I'm hopeful that we can weave those two worlds together. And my hope is that the deepening that happens often on retreat, that can be felt, that extra support—that we don't lose that just because there's a diversity of objects being worked with. But rather, that it creates something like a more complex field of concentration.Like the complexity of a wine when you drink—Brian: Yeah, complex harmonics.Vince: Yeah, exactly. There's a complexity there because of the way differences come together. And I guess I felt that in the Jhāna community, with your Śamatha Jhāna and the Vipassanā Jhāna and the Metta Jhāna. There's something I've seen with people that are going to multiple of these groups, where they're getting more of the flavor of the practice and what it could be like, by dipping into these different subjects.Brian: That's fascinating. And that metaphor of complex wine is really lovely. And complex harmonics tend to make interesting music. So that's great. Anything—should we talk about the breadth and the depth? So something that you and I often—so for those who are listening to this, Vince and I will often come across—so Vince and I are fairly non-dogmatic in the sense that we're really open to all doorways. And certain teachers that have been brought up in strong traditions, they have a really strong idea about what Jhāna is and what it isn't. Which I completely respect. And I really want to honor those classical traditions as well. I love that stuff and I'm completely drawn toward that as well. But Vince and I think we have a—we know we have a bit of a different approach. What should we say about the breadth and the depth that we're hoping to cover there?Vince: Yeah. Personally I can say I've struggled with this a lot over the years of practice.Brian: Totally.Vince: Having come up as a layperson, I decided not to go the monastic route because of my girlfriend—now wife. I didn't want to lose that relationship. It felt important. So I was always doing the thing—and I think you had the same experience for a while—going in and out of retreat.Brian: Totally.Vince: And going in and out of daily practice, doing an hour or two a day formal practice, going in and out of a month or so on retreat, coming back. And I experienced the oscillation between daily life and retreat life to be very fruitful on the one hand—where it felt like I kept plunging the depths and then coming back—but then also very challenging and confusing on the other end. Like, how do I bridge these two realities together? It almost could feel schizophrenic at times, coming in and out of that space.And part of what I learned really working with Kenneth—social noting exercises initially and teaching—was, oh, I need to be able to connect these states across my relationships now. That I need to be able to be present in relationship, not just by myself in silence on retreat. I need to find a way to bring this to bear on everything.And also be more okay not being in really concentrated states, since there are times where it's just going to be hard to do that. I know we've talked about your experience—I've laughed a number of times thinking about your experience going from super hardcore Pa Auk-style retreat practice to being in Tokyo with your wife, trying to maintain some of that depth while in an environment that just doesn't seem designed to do that.Maybe you could talk a little bit about your experience trying to maintain the depth.Brian: Just a general comment. This is less about Vince and I being meditation teachers and just trying to be skillful human beings in the world. If your partner's getting mad at you because of how you meditate, you're probably not doing it right. There's something going on that's probably out of sync.And so what that looked like for me was—I'm going to be the—clearly I needed to be the best Jhāna master ever to live who was a Westerner, I think. Second only or something like that. And what did that mean practically? Trying to live a life where I'm meditating four to five hours a day, while maintaining a full-time job and a marriage. And you know, that's sustainable for a certain amount of time.But what it actually means you need to do is you need to be dropping into the ānāpāna spot when your wife goes to the bathroom at dinner. And if you're thinking about that, you're probably actually thinking about it while you're eating dinner. And you might even take a moment to touch it while you're eating dinner. And then the wife will actually notice, and she'll say, “Stop meditating,” because she's sensitive to all your moods. Because she's been living with you. She knows when you're meditating, even if you think you're hiding it.And so this is actually failure mode. I don't think this is a good move. And so it's exactly what Vince is saying. There's something super beautiful about learning to get fully absorbed in a Jhānic experience, which tends to take some time for most people. There's a time-on-the-cushion element to that just because of the relative time it takes to build up the concentrated facility.But we also have lives to live. And there are certain things going on that make it impractical some of the time. So what's the happy medium? I think what's actually practical for us as laypeople.Now, one of my dear teachers is Tina Rasmussen. She's my first Jhāna teacher. And therefore I feel a really strong connection to Tina, who was one of my first Pa Auk teachers. But Tina won't think that what Vince and I are teaching is Jhāna. Because it—and some of the things that we're being taught in the Jhānic community—she wouldn't call Jhāna, because it's a little bit too far out of the rails of the Pa Auk tradition. And I totally understand that, and I respect that.And maybe Leigh would have his own opinions on that. And all these teachers have all these opinions. I think what Vince and I would like to offer you all is: we're going to hold all of that. We're big enough to hold all of that, accept all of that, agree with all of that, and be open to disagreeing with all of that. But we're going to say, that's all going to fit somewhere on the spectrum.We're happy. And in fact, I think within the community we hope we have teachers who could orient you to any part of the spectrum. Because at certain times of your life, some parts will be more interesting than others. If you're on a month-long at the Forest Refuge, go for full absorption with the nimitta. Why not? What a beautiful thing to have done in your life.If you're living a layperson's life and you meditate for about 20 minutes in the morning, maybe just get a little bit of nice pīti going, per Leigh Brasington's instructions. Because that's totally accessible in 15 minutes.What's going to make you feel good? Jhāna ultimately is really being offered as an episodic intervention to suffering. That's how the Buddha taught it. It's how he practiced it. And you can read that in the suttas. He entered Jhāna at the end of his life because he was sick. This is exactly how it was taught, and how he still can do it today.Vince: Brian, you mentioned the spectrum, and I know we've talked explicitly about the depth dimension as a spectrum. And here I'm like visually imagining this as like a vertical spectrum, where as you go down you get deeper. But I also have been thinking in the Jhāna community about another axis, which is the breadth axis.So if I were to map these together—like depth going vertically and breadth going horizontally—that would give like a bit more like a grid. And I think the breadth dimension—we were talking about this here, and it's good to make it explicit—which is, you can, and the way I understand the Pa Auk tradition really, is that it's focused on a very exclusive kind of breadth. Very hyper-focused on the object, and super deep. So it'd be like in the lower-left quadrant of this: super exclusive and super deep.Brian: Yeah.Vince: And what I've been realizing I've been trying to do in the last decade or so is live on the other side of the spectrum. Which is the more inclusive dimension of Jhāna, which I find you can actually take very deep. And maybe the Zen tradition is the best place where that's emphasized, where it's like your practice and your life are all integrated in one. And there's really an emphasis not on preferencing being in a particular posture or doing a particular thing—it's just like, your whole life is the meditation.And if that to me is—okay, that's a more inclusive kind of meditation experience, or Jhānic experience, where everything that arises is part of the practice. And like, thinking of The Karate Kid, it's like, at the beginning of The Karate Kid, what are they learning? Wax on, wax off. You're learning every basic movement can be kung fu. And so if you turn everything you do into the meditation, then you can have a kind of inclusive attention or awareness that doesn't get knocked off by the changingness of the content of experience.Brian: Say more about inclusive, exclusive. And I think you were doing one or the other when you did our guided sit today—you were talking a lot about “may concentration arise for all.” Were you even doing a little bit of a visualization? Visualization—what would the world look like, should we all be so concentrated? Can you point to what you were doing there—whether that was inclusive or exclusive, and how you see those two?Vince: Yeah, that's a good example, Brian. That was the move toward more inclusiveness. Including the imaginal capacity, which you'd already brought online really with the rails, feeling in the breath. So just working off of that. But also including in awareness more of a sense of others.And I think what I learned from Ken Wilber, of the Integral philosophers, is like we really can include these core perspectives. We can include our first-person experience—which to me, that's already included, even in the most exclusive, deep Jhāna states. You're including your own experience, you have to, because that's where it's happening.But then you can also include others' experience. You can open to and include in your awareness other people. And the early Buddhist tradition has good examples of that, like in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta. As they're describing the kind of mindfulness you want to establish, they said establish this mindfulness internally and externally.And so there's already there some clear instructions for how you can have a more inclusive kind of focus that includes not just your own experience, but also others. And then the third thing you could include, from an Integral perspective, is the third-person perspective, which is like the external world. Nature, the world of nature.And I—lately I've been sitting for 24 minutes a day outside on my back porch. That's been my practice—just sitting. And it's a very inclusive practice, because the eyes are open, ears are open, body open, and you're just sitting and being with whatever is. In my case, it's with Emily, and with the sounds of what's happening in the neighborhood.Brian: What a beautiful practice.Vince: That to me is like more inclusive. If you open from your first person to include others and then include the world—if you include all those things—you're sitting in a very inclusive way. Or walking, or standing, or whatever posture you might be in.Brian: And folks, you know that—what's the proximate cause for concentration? That's concentration. We've all heard that before. It's a kind of a funny joke. I think we talk about like Shakti and passing our concentration to others, which I hear a lot—people say when they're with me they feel more concentrated. I think that's because I'm including them. I'm trying to include them in that space. I want them to be part of that. And I'm inviting them into mine, and they're giving me some back, and we're all kind of building it together.The—a little bit more on the spectrum. So my natural resting place on the spectrum and Vince's natural resting place on the spectrum are actually at totally opposite ends of the spectrum. I want you guys to know that because I think that's really great—that you have a teacher who sits on each side, and therefore we can cover all the middle.So I'm a hundred percent exclusive. That's how I was taught to practice. And so one of the primary things I do when I'm correcting students who come to me to learn Pa Auk Jhāna is: people have been highly influenced by events, or they've been highly influenced by The Mind Illuminated—Culadasa. And they'll come in and then I'll learn, like on session four, like I hadn't realized it because they haven't told me yet, “Oh yeah, I'm always leaving 10% of my awareness in the room to note things before they arise.”And I'm like, “No. You don't leave any awareness in the room. You put a hundred percent here. We're never doing anything but that.” And that turns out to be revelatory. People are like, “Oh, I don't leave any in the room?” And I'm like, “No, this is an exclusive practice. A hundred percent.”And some of us will really be drawn to that. It's a very—you guys can feel the renunciate vibe of that Theravāda. It tends to be a renunciate practice. That churning is renunciate practice. And those of us who are incredibly drawn to absorption tend to have a little bit of that renunciate vibe. I absolutely have that in myself.Vince, on the other side, has taken—all great teachers will have students who will take something they've taught and run with it and reify and make it great. And Vince took social meditation from Kenneth. And I took eye postures. Kenneth talked about eye postures a little bit, but I went and made it the whole thing. Kenneth is even surprised by how big it's got at this point. And I think he'd say the same about Vince in social meditation.So just a little bit there about how we—our natural resting places I think make us really great teaching partners, in the sense that we love to cover the whole end of the spectrum, from our respective ends, which are the exact opposite ends. I think, Vince, that we sit at the opposite ends on that, naturally.Vince: Yeah. But we can meet in the middle, which I think is important. We both have that experience of being on the other side.So yeah—to your point, we'll do some social meditation on this retreat as well, regularly. And the intention there is to play with extending attention to include more.I was thinking about, what is the core difference between the sort of exclusive and inclusive ends of that spectrum? And it more or less reduces down to whether you're saying “no” to experience outside of the object you're working with, or whether you're saying “yes.” Or whether the object you're working with includes everything else.And in that sense, I would say all practice is working with that spectrum. Because there are times—even probably in the Pa Auk tradition, I imagine—where something could be arising that actually keeps you from being able to a hundred percent focus on here. And you actually at some point have to maybe turn toward it and deal with it, or address it, so that you can come back to a hundred percent focus here. Is that accurate?Brian: Yeah, so the most radical Pa Auk teacher will say you don't even do that. And they're not going to even acknowledge that there's a hindrance taking you away, because that would almost be like an admission of defeat.Vince: Like you're feeding it or something?Brian: Yeah, like feeding there something. So it's just: focus here. That being said, in the more modern Pa Auk teachers, they talk a lot about transformation versus transcendence. And the frame on this is—with Jhāna, we're aiming for transcendence. We are going to intensely ecstatic states that one would never experience without doing the practice. And these are supernormal human states, way beyond the pale of normal human experience.But sometimes that doesn't work, because we're super hungry or we hate our boss, and we're being pulled away by hindrances, we could say. And then when that happens, we simply can't concentrate. Focus here is not an option. And the more modern teachers are a little bit more flexible around that, and they say that's when we shift from transcendence into transformation. And what I mean by that is personality transformation.And they will propose that you do some work around working with the hindrances, so that you can free up that energy to go back to the ānāpāna spot. Any hindrance is just taking something away from energy that could be put always right here. Focus here always and forever, even when you don't feel like it, is the message of that tradition.Vince: So this is cool. I think that—I'm thinking the way this will probably play out on this retreat is we'll be offering different perspectives from either side of that. And the exploration is going to be around figuring out how to work with that more inclusive versus more exclusive focus, and finding the sweet spot for you in that spectrum.Brian: I think that's what we're offering. I've never, folks—I've never done a Jhāna retreat that wasn't full noble silence. So it's actually quite novel for me to go into a very strong concentration practice, but also have the space to be more inclusive. And that's what I want to do this time. I think that's a great approach. I think it'll bear great fruit for us.Join us in The Jhāna Community–an online community of practice focused on all the flavors of meditation. Get full access to Buddhist Geeks at www.buddhistgeeks.org/subscribe

Ken Wilber's integral theory, Game B's technocratic roots, Theosophical syncretism, Esalen's diplomacy, and resisting collectivist control with Carl Teichrib During our podcast break, enjoy this replay of Courtenay's appearance on The Will Spencer Podcast with co-guest Carl Teichrib from June 2025. Key topics: Ken Wilber's influence: Integral theory blending eastern mysticism, psychology, and progressive Christianity (e.g., Emerging Church, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell) into a syncretic, globalist worldview. Game B connection: New operating system for civilization, rooted in Wilber's ideas, tied to 2011 Stanton meetings (Jim Rutt, Jordan Hall, Brett Weinstein) and transpolitical movements. Theosophical roots: Wilber's ties to Theosophy (Blavatsky, Bailey), spiritual evolution, and co-creation, influencing UN's one-world religion and technocratic agendas. Cultural impact: Esalen's role in hot tub diplomacy, psychedelic spirituality, trauma-based evolution, and the re-enchantment of paganism with technology. Dark Enlightenment overlap: Peter Thiel's network states, authoritarian technocracy, and Wilber's seductive integration of Christianity (e.g., Jordan Hall's liturgy misuse). Pushback: Recognizing language shifts (e.g., Christ consciousness), engaging locally, and fostering individual responsibility against collectivist control.

Vince Fakhoury Horn: I was thinking about where to start with the 9th Jhāna, and I think the first thing to say is that the 9th Jhāna is not a state. So why in the world are we within a community of practice called The Jhāna Community, which is explicitly aimed at developing and cultivating certain states of mind, or states of consciousness, why would we be focusing on something which is not a state?Let me let me share a little bit where this term came from. So I'm borrowing this term from a researcher who I spoke to some months ago. This is a researcher working on a project studying advanced meditation. They were asking me about my experience with jhāna's and then asked, “Do you have any experience with anything that would be considered like a 9th Jhāna, or anything beyond the eight traditional jhānas.” And I had to think about that because I'd never heard the term, “the 9th jhāna.” I'd heard other things, weird things, but I hadn't heard that one before, so I thought about it and I was like, “Well, I guess the only thing I would describe as the 9th jhāna is just sort of resting in awareness, or just being open and not doing anything, just being”, what I would normally in my own models call Awareness Meditation, and that is the spirit of this exploration today.Want to explore the 9th jhāna with Vince Horn? Join him for another round of The 9th Jhāna in The Jhāna Community beginning September 30th, 2025. The 9th Jhāna is an exploration of how to explore these states of consciousness that arise in meditation naturally and organically when the mind and body are settled, through the doorway of a very different kind of meditation object, which is not an object at all. We take awareness as our “object.”Of course, awareness can't take itself as an object, right? If you could take awareness as an object, that wouldn't be awareness. It'd be some experience. With the 9th jhāna we're learning how to rest in awareness, to be aware of awareness. And there are lots of ways to do that, and there's lots of ways to think about that. So today I wanted to kind of just share a few different frames with you, uh, as an attempt to frame the unframeable. Awareness isn't something which we can frame properly because it's not an experience, or it's not a thing, or state. But we still have to talk about it. Because it's like the whole point of the Buddhist meditative tradition in a certain way. So how can we talk about something that doesn't fit into the normal categories of how we think about reality? One way I think we have to talk about this, and this is a longstanding conversation in the Buddhist contemplative tradition, is we have to talk about how we enter into this awareness of awareness. And there's a longstanding debate here between what in the Buddhist tradition they call the Sudden and Gradual schools. They're not actual real schools, okay. In fact, they're probably not really actual people who really believe either one of these extreme positions anymore.But, over thousands of years, you could say a dialogue has been happening across these different lines of looking at how the path unfolds. And one of the so-called schools says that the path is a gradual process, it's something that you develop through time. In a book called One Dharma by a Teacher named Joseph Goldstein, he does his best to try to make sense of these different approaches and he describes this kind of approach where you're gradually developing stage by stage or step by step. He calls this the Building From Below orientation. But there's also, as he describes it, a way to Swoop From Above with Awareness. You don't necessarily have to spend 20 years and you know, five Goenka retreats, or whatever the amount of stuff that you did, before you realized the basic truth about awareness, which is: good luck trying to not be aware. Ken Wilber, one of my early mentors, he used to always point to awareness, he'd say, “Try to stop being aware of my voice.” And Ken talks a lot [laughs] and he'd just keep talking, talking, talking about how you can't not be aware. And it's true, it's hard to shut awareness off.So here, how do we actually, suddenly realize that we're already aware? This is the Sudden School, which Joseph Goldstein described as Sweeping from Above. You could just realize it's already done. You're already aware, you're already awake. Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, in a book called I Am That he said, “To be aware is to be awake. Unaware means asleep. You are aware anyhow, you need not try to be. What you need is to be aware of being aware. Be aware deliberately and consciously, broaden and deepen the field of awareness. You are always conscious of the mind, but you are not aware of yourself as being conscious.”I like this way of describing awareness practice, because in a way, he's integrating these two, the sudden and gradual approaches. He's not prioritizing one over the other. He's saying both are true. You're always conscious, right? So consciousness is always present, but you're not always aware that you're aware. You're not always conscious of your consciousness. And so there, that's the practice is being aware of being aware. That's it. That's what we're doing here. B. Alan Wallace in The Attention Revolution, another awesome Dharma book, that touches on awareness as a doorway into jhāna, he says, “In awareness of awareness, there is no intentional directing of attention. You simply rest in that flow of knowing, and from time to time gently recognize that you are aware.”I wish it were more complicated than that, sometimes I wish I could just lay it out like kind of like Daniel Ingram did in his book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, and just give you the full, 400 page diagram detail of how to get into awareness. And I'm sure that book exists, and that might be a useful exercise. But for me, the practice is quite simple. And unfortunately, the thinking mind will tend to make this more complex than it is, and that tends to be one of the biggest obstacles that I've noticed in using awareness as a tool for entering into jhāna. So this is one way to look at what we're doing here with the 9th Jhāna. How is it that we're coming into this awareness? Gradually or all of a sudden. Another way of looking at awareness practice, I think that's very important is that if you are taking a gradual approach, if you feel like there's some kind of movement or development or progression through time, what I've noticed is that that progression often takes one of two forms, and this seems to largely depend on the person and the tradition that they're practicing in.One of the ways, in the Christian contemplative tradition, they call this Via Negativa. In the Hindu tradition, they call this Advaita, which is you take all of the experiences that are rising and you recognize that you are not any of those, because they're objects, because they're arising, because you can know them. That means they arise in time that they're changing, and they will vanish. This is the basic truth of vipassana, right? Mindfulness. Yeah, so we can recognize that and we recognize anything that we can be aware of is not ultimately who we are. This is the process of, Neti Neti, as it's said in Sanskrit, “Not this, Not this.”With this approach you're backing away from the untruth. You're backing away from everything that is not you. You're letting go of all those objects and just resting in awareness that's devoid of any characteristics. Devoid. That's important. This is the path of the void. Not this. Via Negativa. Then on the other side though, you have the opposite path, Via Positiva. “This too, This too.” Nothing is excluded. Anything that arises that appears to be apart from you, you include it in awareness. You fold it back into awareness and see that thing that I thought was out there, over here, this too! Shunryū Suzuki Roshi in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, he says, “That everything is included within your mind is the essence of mind.” So, here we're recognizing that everything that arises in the mind is the essence of mind.Another quote from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, in I Am That:“The mind produces thoughts ceaselessly, even when you do not look at them. When you know what is going on in your mind, you call it consciousness. That is your waking state–your consciousness shifts from sensation to sensation, from perception to perception, from idea to idea, in endless succession. Then comes awareness, the direct insight into the whole of consciousness, the totality of the mind. The mind is like a river, flowing ceaselessly in the bed of the body; you identify yourself for a moment with some particular ripple and call it: ‘my thought'. All you are conscious of is your mind; awareness is the cognizance of consciousness as a whole.”Awareness is the cognizance of consciousness as a whole. Again, we'll use this as our kind of broad definition for what it is that we're meditating on. And of course we don't meditate on awareness. We meditate as awareness. There's no way to take awareness as an object. You can only be that awareness.So how do you be aware? Well, you're already aware. How do you not be aware? That might be a more interesting question. How do we not be aware? How do we avoid this moment?So these are two approaches, “Not this, Not this” (via negativa) and “This too, This too.” (via positiva), are both are valid ways to realize Awareness. I remember the first time I really heard this spoken by someone I respected, it was a teacher at Naropa University. I was in this class called Contemplative Hinduism and learning about the different contemplative approaches in the Hindu tradition. My teacher was a woman named Sreedevi Bringi, and she grew up in India and her family, and her family was close friends with Jiddu Krishnamurti, so she grew up, hanging out with Krishnamurti in her family house. Okay, that should give you a little sense of her background.She said in India there are two basic approaches, and she described it in pretty much the same way I just described them to you, except she said with the Neti, Neti approach, she said in India we call this Advaita Vedanta, radical non-duality. And the other approach “This too, This too”, we call that Tantra. Vedanta and Tantra. And she said both of these are valid approaches. At the time that I heard that, it was really useful, because I'd taken the Via Negativa approach and I thought, “Well, this must be the only way.” I noticed in the beginning when everyone was sharing about your background, I should have probably asked when your first Goenka retreat was, because almost everyone here seems to have experienced that. And that very much is the Via Negativa approach, where you're just breaking down, deconstructing your experience, disidentifying, you could say dissociating from whatever arises. So this is also, I think, an important frame for understanding the 9th Jhāna, that there are different ways in, that are either about backing away from identification with anything, or moving toward identification with everything. Ultimately, I would suggest these lead to the same realizations. And then finally, I want to throw this last frame out to you, which is the Several Ways to Meditate framework. This is a framework that my wife, Emily Horn and I developed over many years now to kind of describe the various approaches to meditation that we have practiced, and we teach, to provide a schema for understanding all the different possible ways there are to do this, and how they connect and relate to each other.If you think for a moment of a hexagram, starting off with a very simple six-sided object. If you look at that hexagram, you can see that there's six points in the hexagram, and each of those points is a style of meditation or a way to meditate. You have Concentration Meditation, bringing attention to a single point. Mindfulness, where we're noticing sensations as they change. Heartfulness, inclining the mind toward opening the heart. Inquiry Meditation where we're using a question as a prompt for discovery, like "What is awareness?" or "Who is aware?" Then you have Imaginal Meditation where you're using internal imagery or other internal senses to kind of put yourself in a position, that you can only imagine, where you're more whole and integrated. And then finally we have Embodiment Meditation where you're working on inhabiting the body. Now obviously there's a lot of overlaps between these styles. It's not that they're completely separate. In fact, they do connect. And if you imagine this hexagram, every point connecting up to a single point, like a pyramid, except this is a hexagramic pyramid. That single point at the top, the apex, is Awareness. Awareness is the only way of meditating that doesn't have a focus. It's the only style of meditation where there's nothing to do, and thus awareness doesn't contradict any of these other styles of practice. You might be missing that you're aware while you're furiously meditating on your breath or something, you might actually miss that, really it's true. But you can be aware and breathe at the same time. Awareness is compatible with everything, and it's the common denominator of all these styles. It's the point that transcends and includes all these different ways to meditate. So in that sense, it's a kind of special approach. And because of that you can use any of those other styles of meditation, in combination with the intention to be aware of awareness, and you can practice that as a doorway into the 9th jhāna. So you can practice Mindful Awareness, you can use techniques that intentionally bring in mindfulness, and also point toward awareness. Or you could do a kind of inquiry into awareness. You could use inquiry meditation to, to hone in on the nature of awareness through asking questions. “What is aware of this experience right now?” Can you find that? You can just sit and be in your body. Embodied awareness. You can take awareness as your concentration object. Shamatha without a sign, which was mentioned earlier. You could move through the jhānas naturally and organically as you just rest in awareness, concentrated awareness. So I mention this model because I'm going to be pulling from a lot of these different techniques over the course of the next 12 weeks. And my hope is that by exploring this from different angles, you can find the approaches to awareness that work for you, to let you in, that are access points for you that are reliable and which you can deepen through. And my experience is sometimes people will find that access point in one place, and it might not be a Goenka retreat, it might be somewhere else. So, here I want to provide as many access points as possible while also continuing to keep the focus centered on the 9th Jhāna.Practice the 9th Jhāna in The Jhāna Community with Vince Fakhoury Horn. Next group starts on September 30th, 2025. Get full access to Buddhist Geeks at www.buddhistgeeks.org/subscribe

Alderman highlights the rapid expansion of information exposure over the past 50 years, leading to an "algorithmic undertow" that channels individuals into echo chambers. Here we explore how to become digitally mature and mindfully intentional in our engagement with the increasingly fragmented social landscape. Bruce Alderman, MA, is an affiliate faculty professor at John F. Kennedy University in the Consciousness and Transformative Studies and Holistic Counseling Psychology departments. He is the Associate Director of the Blue Sky Leaders Certificate Program at the California Institute of Integral Studies His essays and white papers have been published in many prestigious publications and anthologies on consciousness studies, and he is co-creator, producer, and occasional host of the YouTube series The Integral Stage.Interview Date: 6/13/2025 Tags: Bruce Alderman, Penn Gillette, algorithmic undertow, echo chambers, information bubbles, Roy Bhaskar, demi realities, critical realism, digital realities, Bohemian dialog, David Bohm, Jainism, Anekāntavāda, non one-sidedness, non one-pointedness. critical realism, integral theory, Ken Wilber, integral theory, Personal Transformation, Philosophy, Psychology, technology

Send us a Positive Review!Series Title: Dialogue Foundation Gospel Study: A Novel Approach to D&C 76 [III of IV] Are you on an LDS faith journey and want to try your hand at seeing scripture from LDS cannon from your emerging 'mystical filter'? If so, this episode is for you as Val & Nathan take D&C 76 & run it through their own 'mystical filters' & report of their findings!Nath & Val provide a roadmap for reading scripture through a higher lens, moving from literal interpretation to embracing metaphor, symbolism, & truths from the perennial tradition, all aimed at fostering a love-based, inclusive understanding of your own emerging spirituality.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Series Overview01:40 Exploring Integral Theory and Doctrine03:00 Understanding States and Stages of Growth04:19 Transcend and Include: Practical Applications09:08 The Role of Experience in Spiritual Growth15:03 Mystical Filter and Scriptural Interpretation23:40 Ethnocentric Lens of Early Disciples24:23 Stages of Development in Scripture Interpretation25:39 Impact of Translators' Worldviews28:15 Teachers' Influence on Scriptural Understanding32:16 Personal Interpretation and Mystical Filter35:35 Literal vs. Metaphorical Understanding36:42 Ken Wilber's Integral Theory46:21 Reinterpreting Fear-Based Concepts50:43 Conclusion and Future DiscussionsReferenced in this Episode: All Things New - Fiona & Terryl GivensTattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion - Gregory BoyleSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

Send us a Positive Review!In 2016 I went Trump and so did over half of the caucasian women who voted in the United States. Why? In this episode I use myself as a specimen for the study of the white, middle-class, educated, Christian, conservative, heterosexual, married woman who felt more comfortable voting for an old, white man with a questionable resume and even more questionable track record around his respect for my exact demographic. And guess what? The exact same percentage of the exact same demographic did the same thing in 2024 (minus myself, I am proud to report). Tune in to learn more about the psychology of this voting block and (surprise surprise) how this phenomenon has everything to do with what Christian conservatism often embeds in women accustomed to male leadership as ordained of God, an older white male deity, lower self advocacy, & the need to be safe in a man's care & a life committed to deferring to others' wisdom & well-being. 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview00:16 Reflecting on Personal Vulnerability00:32 Political Series Recap and Ken Wilber's Theory03:21 Exploring the 2016 Trump Election Phenomenon05:38 White Women's Voting Patterns12:22 Psychological and Cultural Influences20:17 Personal Experiences and Reflections32:17 Understanding Women's Support for Trump52:58 Concluding Thoughts and Personal GrowthReferenced in this Episode: Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny - Kate ManneSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

This episode of Buddhist Geeks features a candid and heartfelt conversation between Vince Fakhoury Horn and Tasshin Fogleman about Palestine, the TPOT subculture, and what it means to embody true Bodhisattvahood. They explore the limitations of online discourse, especially around contentious issues, and reflect on the importance of good-faith dialogue, friendship, and spiritual integrity in times of crisis.Join Vince Fakhoury Horn and Brian Newman outside of Lisbon, Portugal at the beginning of 2026 for a 10-day intensive jhāna retreat. There, we'll be exploring The Flavors of Jhāna.Episode TranscriptVince:Hey Tasshin.Tasshin:Hi Vince.We just talked before I hit record. We just talked still. It's like formally. Hi. Hi. Tasshin: We're here. Vince: Yeah, exactly. That's good to see you. Tasshin: Yeah, good to see you too, brother. Yeah. Vince: Yeah, man, I appreciate you being willing to I invited you to have this conversation on X or my favorite platform to hate, Tasshin:My favorite platform to love.Vince: Great. I was there with you for a while, but yeah, it's getting a little weird. It's it's getting a little Faschy, X but we'll probably talk about that. So I propose that we talk about, this was the theme I proposed to you, which is Palestine, TPOT, and True Bodhisattvahood.. And it's, I guess in response to a lot of frustrated, angry, maybe righteous and not in a necessarily, in all bad sense. But yeah, in some posts that I've been sharing on X since I don't know it's been ongoing since the October 7th in my case. So I guess I wanted to explore that with you because I consider you to be one of my friends in the TPOT subculture, which we can get into and talk about what that actually is, Uhhuh because it's pretty, and it's it's vagueish, but, or decentralized at least.But it seems like you're well respected in this decentralized subculture and I think I'm part of that as well, but I seem to be taking a very different role from you and how I relate to it, which is a little bit more critical and Challenging and, I haven't found that's really endeared me to many people in the community.But some people like yourself have engaged with my critiques in what feels like a good faith way, and I've really appreciated that. So I thought, it'd be cool to have a, an even more personal conversation where people could see potentially if we decide to release any of this.And I don't know, just the human side of this, which doesn't come across often in 280 characters. Tasshin: Yeah. I appreciate all that context. I think that's really helpful and I think it's good to have a conversation about this. I think that I've been really struck by your perspectives on this and in general, I really value your perspectives and your opinions about the path and about practice and, we've had a number of disagreements over the years, but I've always walked away, like really learning a lot. And yeah, I do try to engage in good faith and I think especially one of the practices I have just for any kind of conflict in general is if I feel like text-based mediums especially can only hold so much.I don't even like to discourse or disagree on Twitter. I use it for other things and it's hey, if I'm, I've said this to you before, if we have a disagreement, let's get on a call and actually talk about it. And because it's just, you can actually hear the other person's perspective and where they're coming from in a way that text just really doesn't afford.So I'm glad we're talking about this. Yeah, I think it's great. Yeah. Vince: And the downside of doing that without recording it and sharing it back, because of course then it's just like a private thing that happens Right, and doesn't necessarily filter out in the same way to the collective. Tasshin: Totally. Totally.SoVince: This is cool. Yeah. Thank you. Tasshin: Do you have any suggestions for where you'd like to start or what feels like a good starting place?Vince: I would be curious to see your take on what TPOT is or how you'd describe that phenomena. I did spend a little bit of time reflecting on it, and I came up with a little, like micro definition, but I don't think it's exhaustive this a starting point.But I'm curious even before sharing that, if there's anything, thoughts on TPOT and what it is, if you've thought, have you meditated on that? How do you can, Tasshin: yeah. I love that and I'm so curious what your definition will be. I suspect it'll be spicier than mine, but I liked what you said earlier about it being a decentralized community.because I, I felt a little bit of trepidation before this conversation for really all three of the things you want to talk about. I feel like, so woefully inexpert in and I really don't know as much as I ought to about the war, and I don't know as much. I, I don't know. I'm not, I'm in TPOT certainly, but I'm not, there's no elected four figure leader or something.It's decentralized, as you said. And then also at the Bodhisattva path, I'm like still figuring it out very right. As we all are so right. But yeah, TPOT, I think for me it's very much about specific people, like their specific friends that I've cultivated very deep friendships with, that I've met through Twitter, and developed those relationships through Twitter and their, I think some of my closest friends at this point are people I've met through Twitter and they're friendships that I treasure and I think it is decentralized.I think it's. Spread throughout the world at this point. Like I can go to any major city and meet people who are connected to this network. And I, like my friend Andrew Rose has been talking about it recently as the network where it's yeah, it's not really about Twitter anymore. And it's not really, it's a larger cloud of people that are connected and I think it's not necessarily ideologically on the same page, like people having the same perspectives or even shared practices.There might be shared interests and common overlaps, but I think people have very different perspectives on the world. And it's more, if anything, I'd say it's like a developmental similarity where, for me at least, it really helped me to, I started to enter TPOT. I could go into detail, but as I was individuating from being at the monastery for many years and it's I mean it from a developmental perspective, it helped me jump from three to four in the Keegan stages where it's like I was in a tribal state of mind identified with the maple ideology and worldview and practices, which was great for me at the time. It really was. And then it's, it stopped being great for me and I had to find a new way and being with so many weirdos from around the world who saw things so differently really helped me to find my own way and find my own life. So I feel a sense of connection and intimacy with it, and like indebtedness to it, where it's these are my people and a help that helped me to find myself in the world.Yeah, that's what TPOT is to me at least. Vince: I like what you're saying about the developmental part. I guess I see the phenomena similarly like this is something that. There's a lot of people coming together, not, like you said, around a particular ideology or like framework.Which is very common. Like a bunch of people come together on a specific book or teacher or teaching or whatever. This is different because there are teachers and teachings that are, you see commonly in that community. But it's pretty broad. Yeah. Tasshin: And you don't have to buy into any of them.I think there are major, if anything there's like themes, like non coercion is a big one or Right. And people bring their own interests and you don't have to be interested in the same things other people are interested in. Vince: But there's something, if you put all those themes together, you'd start to see like broader theme of Absolutely.Yeah. The connection there. Yeah. Which I think you're totally right. It's, there's something maybe developmental underneath that. I was thinking about the book, The Postmodern Condition. Which David Chapman originally recommended to me. He's one of the, he's a TPOT Philosopher.Maybe he wouldn't he probably reject that phrase term, but he is a philosopher and well respected in that space. Tasshin: Sure. Vince:And I remember the the author Jean-François Lyotard, he said, simplifying to the extreme, “I define postmodern as incredulity toward meta narratives.”And I find there's something very postmodern about this community where there's a kind of general skepticism toward meta-narratives, of thinking that like one way of describing reality could be totally comprehensive and true for everyone, everywhere, all the time.And I see that as one of the things I really appreciate about TPOT. In terms of it representing a move out of like the modern condition, which was much more like about trying to find the right ideology and all these clashing Isms, Communism versus Capitalism versus all these kind of clashing religions.Who's got the best, which framework is going to come out on top, and everyone's going to eventually believe it's like some, I see that as the more of the modern condition. And so in that sense it feels like a real relief, to see communities, that are forming around.Around this. And it, I guess that's the reason for me, I always connect my experience of coming up in the integral community, Ken Wilber's community with TPOT because it felt like a very similar kind of vibe there. Where so many people I met were just doing radically different kinds of things.And, there'd be someone who's super into, like spiritual surrender, the lineage of Adi da, who is also like a concert pianist that I'm literally describing an actual person I worked with. And then someone else would be like, super into video production and have no interest in spiritual practice or meditation, but they have a lot of interest in like psychological work.And yeah, I guess that's something I've seen is consistent with the TPOT world. Is this sort of like postmodern incredulity towards meta narratives?Tasshin: How would that fit with it being I've never really understood this, but would you describe TPOT as meta-modern, or not meta-modern.Vince: I guess for me, I would say the center of gravity of TPOT seems to be in the transition between modern to postmodern. Like that I would call that post rational. Because the main mode of modernity is rational individualism. It's this is Ken Wilber's and Jean Gebser's take, but I find that to be true.So people like are questioning the limits of rationality and model making are post rational. I see, and I think as a result they're postmodern. But there's a transition, it's like there's a awkward developmental phase where you're letting go of, the absoluteness of models and you can ken Wilber called it the “performance contradiction.” He said, you can you can absolutize that too, or you can say everything is relative. That statement isn't a relative statement, it's an absolute statement. All perspectives are valid. Okay. That perspective you're saying is more valid than any other perspective, which says that certain perspectives are more valid than others. And so like the whole idea of postmodernity rests on a performance contradiction. That's, or at least the early stages of it where you're deconstructing that mo deconstructive, postmodernism Robert Kegan, would call it.He also has a reconstructive postmodern phase. I don't think TPOT is in the reconstructive postmodern phase, but I think some people in it are. It's like there's a spectrum, within, there's a center of gravity, but there's a spectrum. As well or more, it's like a scatter graph, Uhhuh, where like most of the dots are in the center around this sort of modern to postmodern transition, but then there's like trailing off in both directions.You'll see some people that are more traditional that are there just treating it like a group. I'm sure you saw that probably at Vibe Camp. Probably some people there that are just like. Just drinking the Kool-Aid and don't really, aren't really, maybe vibing in the same way as everyone else.Tasshin: Uhhuh. Vince: And then you find some weird people too that are like aliens even within the space. Who seem to be like a David Chapman I mentioned. He seems like a, an alien to me. Tasshin: An example, Vince: I think he's talking, I think he's a meta-modern Tasshin: thinker.Vince: I don't know.So I, I see a mix, but I mostly see people in the Yeah. Like early postmodern stage, Tasshin: I recently saw a really nice tweet from Mechanical Monk where, which I can link you to later, but he drew this diagram or made like a video of what TPOT is, and he was arguing that like TPOT is a moving target where like i'm thinking of these people. And then you're thinking of these people and there's some overlap, like you and I are both friends with, like Daniel Thorson for example, or. Some other people that we'd have in common, or I know who David Chapman is or whatever. And so there, there's enough overlap that we could be like, oh, we're both pointing at TPOT, but then you don't know some people that I'm pointing to and I don't know some people you're pointing to.And then eventually this is happening more and more. Or people use the acronym TPOT and you're like, I've never seen you. I don't know who you're talking about, and I don't know what you're describing. I think you and I have enough of a shared sense of the thing, but yeah, I thought that was a really good point, that it's not like a homogenous group.Like it has a no, no one likes, this is a very probably like post rat thing to do. Nobody likes labeling it. So it's everyone's unhappy with the term TPOT. Nobody wants to identify as TPOT or as a post rat or whatever. Even the term, Vince: I mean in the phrase the acronym TPOT itself isTasshin: relative and it's like relational.Vince: This part of Twitter. Yeah, no, you're saying it's like a network and I see that. There was a site for a while, I don't know if you saw it, where you could like, you could see the sort of it was like a ranking or listing of the most sort of central, I do remember that inside of a network, it was like the tea, you could pull up TPOT and see a list.I was like, I'm on that list. Which I would, which I would take myself, I would opt out of that list if I could choose to. But it's not a choice as you're part of this network.Tasshin: Yeah. If you know the acronym ar arguably you are in it. It's just once and.Vince: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So what I hear you saying from like the network perspective is like you, you see it from your point of view of the network. And the network is evolving, it's not static. It continues to grow and change and shift. That's right. So your view of it is changing and shifting with the network.That's right. So you both, you have both a limited view and it of something that's changing. That seems true to me. Which doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Or try to, come up with something useful to say about it. I would describe it this way. I'll tell you how I would describe it.Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear it. Oh boy. I'm not so sure about the last part. No, it's not that bad. So I describe TPOT as a weird, and here I'm using the weird acronym, Western educated, industrialized rich and democratic post rational subculture that's connected by shared interest in self-agency and awareness.Tasshin: That seems good. Something that's popping out to me is just also how much of this is specifically enabled by the internet and Twitter in particular, or I think there's something starting to happen that you could call like a Twitter like Blue Sky is a Twitter or Mastodon is a Twitter. I hope we have other Twitter likes in the future.because as you said, X is becoming fahy. Or to me, the thing that a Twitter is very much like a public library, and then Twitter happens to be a company and it's that has skewed incentives and stuff like that. But any case I'm like, yeah that all, everything you said tracks and then it's I think it is meaningfully enabled by technology, right?And whatever a Twitter like is in particular. Vince: Okay. Yeah. That's good. So that's missing in my description here. I agree. It's enabled by that and there's something too like it. The tech, the technology itself is very postmodern. These platforms and microblogging platforms, like you're getting these really tiny little snippets that are largely decontextualized.And you're just seeing a bunch of decontextualized atomized information flowing constantly through your stream without, you have to put the context together. That's right. The platform itself does not do that. In fact, it, if you're not, if you don't have the capability to do that, it might actually be really problematic because That's Tasshin: true.Vince: Yeah. You don't know. So I'd say it's almost perfectly compliments the subculture, the design of it.Tasshin: That's true. And it makes sense of like why you would feel a resonance with, I wasn't in this myself, but from what I imagine the integral community and then also why that would be different of I imagine Twitter wasn't a huge part of that back then because it, I don't even know what the were, but wasn it wasn't even, it Vince: wasn't, no, Twitter launched the year after I left the Integral Institute. So yeah. It wasn't part of that blogging and podcast or very early, like web two was part of it for sure.But it was primarily an in-person community. It was centered. It was like centered in person and then had a sort of one to many kind of broadcast media kind of web 2.0 media thing to it. So it did look a lot different than that. It occurs Tasshin: to me that, at least in my experience, the technology feels really central to the thing.And the properties you named are almost like emergent or like the kinds of people that would resonate with it or something, or be able to make full use of it or Right. What have you. But it doesn't seem intrinsically necessary, but it does seem to me almost, like that if you have a Twitter, like something like this subculture would arise and I could see different, similar subcultures that had different properties or even an ideology or like different developmental stages or something.But I think that a Twitter is really good at clustering people who can vibe together or relate to each other and in a way that's more emergent. I think a lot about individualism and collectivism and I think that this kind of technology affords the possibility of yeah, basically a Hegelian synthesis of individualism and collectivism where each person can be their own individual, but also be in community with a larger network that respects their individuality, but can coordinate as a whole and.I think Twitter likes uniquely make that possible. And I could see ones that were like clusters that were meaningfully different. You'll see sometimes people talk about this, they're like, maybe there's a whole other cluster that's not connected to us at all that we have no idea about. Almost the I forget what the alien version of that is, but like the likelihood that there's an alien is civilization in any given solar system.It's maybe they're out there. Who knows. Vince: Something like, like the Drake equation would describe the Drake equation, how likely that would be. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. You're using the term Twitter. I don't know if we've talked about this, but I will explicitly not use that term anymore to refer to X, mainly because I think people are confusing the term Twitter with the term microblogging. Huh? Since it was the original Microblogging platform, I think a lot of times we conflate Twitter with Microblogging. And so when you say Twitter, like I, that's another way to me of saying Microblogging.What's Tasshin: important to you there? Vince: It's important to me to stop being so sentimental about Twitter because Twitter's dead and whatever that it was, is gone. But Microblogging is alive and well and it's probably doing better now than when Twitter was alive. So I think it's somehow by being sent sentimental Twitter, we mask our ability to perceive what's happening in broader terms with microblogging. And we potentially overlook a lot of nasty shit happening on X.com as well by doing that. Tasshin: I see. Yeah I tend to use the word Twitter for different, maybe sentimental reasons as you're saying, but it's an intentional use on my term. On my part. And maybe I'll just use the word Twitter and you can use the word X and we can Vince: Yeah, no, it's fine.Proceed accordingly. It's No, it's fine. I just wanted to point that out. Very good. That's a difference in frames. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This has been very conceptual so far, but I'm curious to bring it a little downward too, because I remember maybe it was like a week after October 7th Hamas attacked civilians in Israel and.I knew from my own experience having grown up in a, as a Palestinian and American household and having watched this to some degree play out over 40 plus years, 40 years at the time that I was like the blow back from this is gonna be 10 x at least. Because that's consistent. Throughout time it's always Israel will respond with 10 times the amount of violent force at least. And so I was like, if you take the numbers, I was like, that's. That's catastrophic. That's gonna be terrible. And so I knew within the first week, and I shared this on X, that this is going to be a genocide.And so for me, this is the perspective I'm coming from is like I've known that a genocide has been going on for, from the beginning. Have known that the intention or that the likely the likely response was gonna be genocidal. And I think there's a lot of debate about whether or not this is I think that debate is now totally foolish from my point of view.You frame this for instance, as a war, I would call it a genocide. I would say the genocide rather than the war. Or the occupation, which more, more accurate description. because a war assumes that there's two countries, two sides that are equivalent and they're at war.But this is rather like a group of people who've been dispossessed and occupied for decades. Who wrongly lashed out and hurt civilians. But who did so from the point of view of being in a one up, one down power position? So like the group of people or Palestinian people, had been occupied, their movements are controlled.Things coming in and out of Gaza were controlled in terms of water, food, et cetera. Many people described it as an open air prison. Including a colleague of mine who lives in Tel Aviv. He described it that way to me one time. And so from my point of view, it's a lot of times people don't understand when they enter into this, the history of this, that just the basic history of occupation.And so to frame it as a conflict between two equals is a, in a way obscures the power. Dynamics at play where, one group has so much more power over the other and has so much more are literally like nuclear power that's backed by the most powerful military in the world. Who has a lock on the un Tasshin: In Vince: terms of our ability to veto the Americans. So it's David and Goliath rather than, two superpowers going to war. So that's one thing I'll just share is just the frame for me of Palestine. And so I'm, I've been seeing it that from the very beginning.And what I've found with, on, on platforms like X and with the community of TPOT is. Just this sort of maddening silence. Or this sort of schizo, in my experience is like a schizophrenic feed, where on the one hand I'm seeing Palestinian activists and intellectuals and people who are I think doing good work at bringing awareness to an ongoing livestream, genocide.And then an another group of folks more in the TPOT space who are kind of sharing their psychotic explorations and talking about their cool practices and giving, challenging takes and all of which has this other very different vibe which is much more self-focused. And and the two of them in contrast really, that's, for me, that's my, that, that's the tension I'm existing in.And I can totally relate to the self. Absorbed interest in my own transformation and wanting to play around. And it, I totally get that because that's where I've been. Like that's my background as well. But it's, yeah, it's maddening to see these two side by side. And I feel like there's so much missed opportunity with TPOT given that it's so influential right now in culture, in our mainstream culture.And so I guess I, I'm saddened by the fact that I don't see that community having really come around to care much about what's happening in these kind of global situations. Like you, you talked about individualism and collectivism. I feel like it's way more skewed toward individualism in the TPOT world than it is collectivism.So I, that's actually a criticism I'd have. I don't feel like they're both ending it at all. But. Anyway. Yeah, that's just a little bit where I'm coming from,Tasshin: I hear you. Just first off, really mourning and grieving the plate of the Palestinian people that's happening and feeling personally connected to that because of your family and watching the news very closely and really actively grieving that, of just the evil that's happening and caring about that and wanting to see that change and end, and seeing that as a genocide, not as a war.And really appreciating people who are speaking up and being vocal about it and trying to work for change to resolve that crisis and. It feeling used the word like schizophrenic to see TPOT, which seems like self-absorbed and individualistic, where it's like people are talking about whatever they're on about, and it's I got this metaphor hearing you talk about it, of someone who's starving, who's like incredibly hungry, and then they're like next to some rich people who are like having like coffee and talking about, some obstru philosophy and you're like, I'm starving.Can you please give me some of your food? There I'm having a real problem here and you're talking about this stuff that really doesn't matter. And yeah, that being really painful and then also a care about you're like, yeah, TPOTs incredibly powerful and culturally powerful and why aren't you talking about this?You should be talking about this so that we can use your power for good and change the world in that way. Vince: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a naive of me to expect that in some way. So this is where I get a little, this is where I feel the bind. It's on the one hand I intellectually get if this really is developmental as we're describing if this cultural phenomena has a developmental dimension to it, then why would I expect the bulk majority of people who are, coming out of individual rationalism to be focused on anything other than that kind of things are related to that.Who would be well Tasshin: positioned to make a change that had positive effect in the world from a developmental perspective? Vince: That's a good question. I guess anyone could. So maybe the issue isn't the underlying development, but it's the culture, the cultural expression of that. In this case, it's, WEIRD is, I think a good way of putting it, white sorry, Western, but those two are connected, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic.It feels like a lot of what you're saying is true because we're, we are in this WEIRD culture in the US largely, especially the educated TPOT, whole US is not WEIRD. A lot of, there's a lot of uneducated people and people without access to resources, but but we're having this weird conversation.And meanwhile in the global Commons, we're like you said, right next to people that are posting videos constantly of people being, shot and killed and assassinated executed, like right there, children starving, et cetera. And it's it, this is the critique that Postmodernism has had for a long time of modernity.It's like the colonialist thing. It's like how is it that we have so much privilege to be able to have these conversations in the first place, because we ourselves are living on dispossessed land. Like we ourselves dispossessed the Native Americans to be able to be here, we ourselves brought African slaves from Africa to be able to take care of our cotton mills and our run our agricultural industry.And so we ourselves built a country on those very foundations and we ourselves as Western people escaped persecution in Europe. Our whole history of escaping persecution and then bringing it with us is what's happening with Israel and Palestine, from my point of view, it's the same basic pattern.I think it's hard to see that when you're focused on you Tasshin: On Vince: your individual journey of transformation and without being able to zoom out into these broader collective patterns that are shaping you as much as you are shaping yourself. And I wonder if sometimes, like we overestimate our agency, or we over-index on our agency in this community. That'd be my, I guess my question or challenge to folks. Tasshin: Can you say more about that? The over-indexing on agency? What you mean by that? Vince: Yeah, so like for me the synthesis of the agency, of agency and communion is what I'm most, most interested in right now.Because that schizophrenic split feels like it's a split of these two, where it's like you have people that are high agency and have lots of opportunity and privilege, and then you have people that have extremely low ability to opt to effectively exercise their agency. They barely can get food. So it's like such a huge contrast there. And what's the difference between these two groups of people? Like historically it's the only reason I'm on this side of the street is because my grandfather was able to get into this country in 1950.And he was lucky, essentially. So like the only difference is basically luck of birth. Like where are you born? And we, I think we take so much credit for the stuff that is, has nothing to do whatsoever with us. It's like when Obama, said you didn't build that and everyone fucking flipped out.You don't know if you remember that he was talking about, I don't know, he was talking about infrastructure and there was a huge backlash from the Right. Like we built that, in hyper American individualism. And it's I think, you know what the genocide and Gaza's taught me is I'm just lucky.I'm just lucky because I have cousins who are in the West Bank right now and they're living in concentration camp type environments. Like they, they're scared to leave their home because people around them are getting shot by settlers and, five Palestinian Americans have died in the West Bank this past year.People who are just going over there to visit family. So it's extremely bad right now, even in the West Bank, which is considered to be the more stable of the two Palestinian regions. In Gaza, I have two family members here in North Carolina and Asheville that are mar married into my family. So they're not direct family members, but their spouses, and they both have lost over 200 family members in Gaza. Which is hard for people even in the West to understand, because they don't, we don't come from big families like that where you could even imagine having 200 family members.But yeah, like whole family trees are essentially being wiped out. Yes. Are cut down. So it's, to me it's very, because I'm in both worlds. I'm teaching meditation and I'm hearing about, what's going on for my cousin in the West Bank, and I'm hearing about what's happening for other Palestinians that I know.I'm like, this is, it's a very hard tension to hold. So for me, the synthesis of agency and communion is I can recognize, like I have a certain amount of agency in part because of the communal situation. Like we have a community that optimizes for agency. And it optimizes for agency at the at the negative at the expense of many other communities, agency and has historically and even presently, like a lot of.The opportunities we have are because of they've been taken rather than, it's like not an omni win situation. So I feel like there's a lack of kind of acknowledgement of that, that often in part because you start to feel really bad. And if there's anything I've noticed about TPOT is like, people don't want to feel bad.Like people wanna empower each other and raise each other up. And I think there's something beautiful about that. But to me it's come, it comes at the expense of valid criticism, of being open to hearing valid criticism. And that's the kind of, that's, that adds how I felt. I've been res largely, my, my criticisms have been responded to.It's oh yeah, this is, you're just like it's I'm a downer. I'm like, yeah, sorry. It's fucking, it is a downer. It really is. How do you, I know that's general and broad, but how do you respond to something like that?Tasshin: Can you ask a, I there's a lot of thoughts running through my mind. Can you ask a specific question? Vince: I'm just curious what your general Yeah. Sense of that is.Tasshin: First off, my heart hurts. It hurts to know that violence is happening at scale and it hurts to hear that. And I'm okay hurting.I know, I've done a lot of, I, I can feel that, but it hurts and I feel sad and I feel grief knowing about this travesty that's happening. AndI feel that about a lot of things that I know about in the world now, including this. And that's always,yeah. Hard to be with. And I try to learn how to be with that and, i'm grateful for the opportunity to be reminded of what's happening and to be connected to it. I feel a desire to have change occur that feels like it matters. I would like war, genocide, evil violence to end. I'm a pacifist.My, one of the worst days of my life every year is when I pay taxes. I hate paying my taxes, partly because it's annoying bureaucratically, but even more so because I feel like I'm compromising my own ethics by supporting the US military. And that I every year I decide I'm gonna pay my taxes so that I can contribute, continue to be part of this society in a legal and upright way.I'm not morally opposed to taxes as such, but I am morally opposed to what my government does with those taxes, including I don't know the full extent of this. I'm sure you know much more, but certainly being complicit in this war, genocide, violence, murder. Bombing evil. Yeah. And other evils known and unknown.I know that and I've been around a little bit. So that hurts. That's the first and foremost thing. And I feel for you, having family i's just I went through just a couple years ago my mom dying of cancer, and we knew about it four years before she died, three, four years before she died.And she lived a blessed life, and I felt perfectly ready to let her go. And it was still really hard. And it's imagine my family members being murdered at scale and being starving and being oppressed and in all kinds of ways that I can only imagine. It's that my heart would just be breaking on a daily basis.And I feel for you, my friend, going through that and, for the Palestinian people more broadly, such that I'm connected to them and for all who are subject to war. It's just it's just evil. It's just e that, like you, you wanna call it genocide? I'll just call it evil, like it's, I think violence is evil and war is evil and genocide is evil and bombs are evil and guns are evil.And murder is evil and killing children is evil. And it's just, my heart breaks at that. As far as the other specific things you were saying, I'm reminded of a an argument that I've had or witnessed many times where there's kind of two recurring schools of thought in our culture where how do I summarize this? Because I've seen this in a lot of specific instances, and I don't wanna get into the specific instances, but let's take a simple example like say your relative was a Trump supporter, and you personally didn't vote for Trump and don't want Trump to be president. There are people in our culture at this time who would say the thing to do is to be disconnected from that Trump supporter and to never talk to them and to shame them for who they are and or give them radio silence and cut ties.And that's a whole school of thought that applies to many issues. And then there's a school of thought that says how are you gonna change their mind if you don't stay connected to them, if you don't really understand where they're coming from and listen to them and talk to them and share your own perspective.And I tend to be more in the latter school of thought of connection is the basis of change. Actually hearing other people's perspectives, sharing my own, to the extent that it's possible. And you're not. Beating each other up or whatever shooting at each other. But I think being connected to people is the basis of change.And I'm getting here somewhere here with this, which is to me, I hear you saying, I'm not part of TPOT. These are the people that are in TPOT. They're silent, they have these, I don't know, I hear you talking about like collective blind spots, which I think are very valid. I'm glad you're mentioning them, but it's like those people have the blind spot.And this is their problem. And to me I could be wrong, but think, Vince: It's really the Palestinians problem. They're the ones that are suffering for the collective blind spot. They're suffering a lot more. Tasshin: Yes.I think that. You could usefully see yourself as part of TPOT, and that by staying connected to people in TPOT and speaking to them, you can change their minds. I think you've changed my mind about things about this and had an impact on me and had a causal influence on me. And I see you having that impact on a other people.And I think that if you took that perspective, there's more or less efficacious ways of doing that. Ways that, that, that's a question that's come up for me about this is actually about like theories of change. And just one more thing is I was recently in Santa Fe, my dad moved to Santa Fe and when I was there, there's a lot, my dad is like very near the Santa Fe is the capitol, and he is very near the capitol where the government is.And so there's just always protests there like at least once a week. And I get, I personally, me, Tasshin, get so angry at these protestors because I, in my current worldview, think that their theory of change is just shit. They're like, by going to this place and having a sign, I'm gonna change the world. It, to me, I see that is like by and large, incredibly efficacious and not gonna produce the change that they want.And do I know what the theory, what a theory of change is that would produce it? No, but I am spending all of my time and energy on things that I think will have a positive change in the world. Even if they're not enough, even if they're not direct enough, even if they're not gonna end or resolve all the issues I care about, which are many.I am putting all of my time and energy into things that I believe are efficacious. And presumably they think it's efficacious too. They think this is worth doing because they're doing it. And in a way I'm wrong about it because demonstrably people think that holding a sign in front of a capitol is gonna change the world.But, Vince: It does boost their agency when people protest that's, it's an exercise in agency. Tasshin: I do think there's a critical threshold where if enough people protest something, I can't have a change. Obviously that's happened Vince: Arab Spring. Tasshin: Exactly. So it's not, it's definitely not useless. But my point to you as an individual that I care about as my friend, is I think you're actually incredibly well positioned to have a cultural impact on this group that you already are connected to, and that there are more or less efficacious ways of doing that.Like this conversation is efficacious, right? We're having a real conversation between two people who respect each other. We're recording that so that other people can listen. I think that's actually likely to produce the change that you're desiring to some extent. Is it gonna it's hard to say.Vince: It's hard to say. I hear what you're saying. Yeah, I think you and I have talked about this in the past too. I have, some of the biggest changes I've been through have come through people challenging me even violently. And my whole upbringing, as you can hear, it's rooted in violence. Yes. So it's like the story of my family.Is one of resilience in the face of violence, Tasshin: Uhhuh. So this is the recurring thing we always argue about. Yeah. Or one of the several things. Vince: Yeah. It's an, it's like in a place where we rub, I think, but Yeah. But it's understandable. So I'm a little more Okay. Ruffling feathers and even having active conflict with people because I know that sometimes that's actually good.Sometimes if you're too nice, people won't hear you. If you have something powerfully challenging to say, it will just be like, oh yeah, that's nice. And I can just incorporate that into my worldview and feel good about knowing about it, but actually not really be doing anything significantly differently.So it's like a, I don't know, this is in the abstract, but. Tasshin: There's two things there. What there's one is, which is like, how nice are you? And I actually do honestly believe that you would be more efficacious at seeing the changes you want to see, at least in the local community if you were nicer.In addition to being kind. I do think you're kind, that's not an issue. But separately from that, like you, one of the things we talked about recently on the timeline was you're like, I've just been considering blocking people left and right. And I think that Oh, I have been blocking them lost.Exactly. Vince: I've lost half of my friend network in the last year. Tasshin and so that's where I am. So here let me push back a little bit. I lo yeah. I lo I love what you're saying, but I don't think it's my job to do that. I think it's your job to do that, to, to be the one that can be nice and change people's minds on this topic.Tasshin: Oh, that's true. It is my job. You're right. I Vince: agree with you. Yeah, because because I'm too close to it. It's too painful for me. Like people start saying stuff to me. It is like I'm hearing them deny the entire, like truth of my whole identity, my family identity. It's no, like this is true.I'm not, I'm gonna have argue with you like you are dehumanizing me and everyone that's Palestinian right now. Even by having an argument, having even framing this as a debate, is there a war going on? Who's responsible? Et cetera. So it's like what I find is I want to keep talking because I want, it's like the Buddha, he's, and I'm comparing myself to the Buddha here.I know he is gonna fly really well, there, there's an analogy here where he's I'm awake. Okay. Who can I, teach this to, very few are gonna understand it. Because it's subtle and hard to get grasp. My companions, the ones I was practicing with they seem like they'll get it.They have very little dust in their eyes. So I guess I see my role as really more like the people that have very little dust in their eyes. Maybe I can reach them. What's the difference Tasshin: in this case between someone who has dust in their eyes and someone who doesn't, from your perspective?Vince: Are they, yeah. Are they awake to their complicity in a gen, in an active livestream? Genocide? Are they aware? I pay Tasshin: my taxes and, Vince: That's part of it. That's part of it. Yeah. It's like paying taxes. You, like you said, you can't really stop paying your taxes.My uncle did that. Went to prison. I actively Tasshin: choose Vince: to pay Tasshin: my taxes. I think I could stop paying my taxes. Could, I'm saying every year I considered you can do that. Vince: I seriously Tasshin: consider it. Every you'll to prison. Every year. Vince: You'll, you will go to prison. Tasshin: Yeah, exactly. And I believe I can have more impact, positive impact on the world by paying my taxes and not, and I, every, it's a trade off.Literally every year I make this decision again. Vince: Yeah. So it's, to your point, it's not it's not like a black and white thing where it's like. I'm complicit in this very obvious way that I'm just choosing not to. It's, it, the complicity is deep and it's multidimensional, subtle and Tasshin: systemic and multi-generational.And even, Vince: and yeah, and for me it's I was hanging out with a couple of my cousins recently who are from Palestine. They immigrated here in the early nineties when Palestinians were kicked out of Kuwait. And so they were here, they had to rebuild their life. They lost everything. And I grew up with them.And they're doing advocacy work now in the us And when I hear them, talk about their experience, it's like they're being, they're dealing with shit that I'm not having to deal with. Like one of my cousins recently lost her job. She was a high level exec at a tech company in San Francisco.And she thinks it's likely that she lost it because of her advocacy work within the company. So when I guess when I see. I've lost the thread a bit here in terms of connecting back to what we were talking about. But where was I going with that? Tasshin: You were saying something as my job as being TPOT versus your job.Vince: So like when I talk to, say I'll talk to my great uncle my grandfather's brother who grew up in Palestine, and I'll hear the kinds of things that he'll share. And like I, I don't have those kind of views. Like he's extreme compared to me in terms of like how he's viewing things.This is my interpretation. There's a definitely antisemitic tendencies in, in the family system that I've seen explicit and I understand why. Like I have a lot of compassion. I don't actually let it stand. I challenge it when it arises. Even now. This is this uncle I'm talking about.It's his family and his daughter that's in the West Bank right now. He's considering going to visit her in a couple months. He might get shot and killed while he is there. It's quite possible. For me it's like I, I see I can listen to him and I can hear him talk about stuff and I can sort through the pain and the antisemitism to hear, some of the, what's genuine and sincere and I can be there for him.And then I feel like I can reach out and connect with some people and share my pain and what I'm going through and, offer challenges or whatever to some folks. Recently right after September October 7th someone from he lives in Israel. He is American. We have the same background lineage of a pasta tradition.He invited me on to, to have a dialogue about this about what was happening. And and then after our we split, and we're not able to have any conversations anymore. Because some of the things I saw him writing on X and so the perspectives that he seemed to be taking, and we got to a point where we pulled in a mutual mentor someone someone who's like a master mediator.And their basic feedback was like, sometimes you can't have a conversation. Sometimes it's just not possible. And I feel like that's where I'm getting largely, it's it's just not possible for me to have a conversation with a lot of people right now. Because of how 10 how sensitive this is. And so you say, when you say to or I hear if you were kind or if you were nicer, you'd be more efficacious, if I were able to be, I would. But I'm not. Tasshin: And the second part of what I was saying there is that when you block people, you are closing yourself off from the possibility of changing them.And from what I've just heard from, and I'm okay with that. Yeah, exactly. That makes a bit more sense to me now from what you've said. But Vince: I'm not gonna change a Zionist's mind, I don't think, someone who's like a, Christian or Jewish Zionist, I don't think I'm gonna change their mind by sharing something on like a micro blog.Tasshin: That, one of the really urgent questions for me here is what is a theory of change that produces genuine end to war violence, genocide? What actually resolves that? Actually because if I let me figure out how to put this. I am currently putting my time and energy.Into the things that I think I can do that will have the highest benefit from my current understanding and vantage point. I literally spend every day of my life waking to sleeping, doing the thing that I think is best based on my, admittedly flawed, limited perspective, my own weaknesses and blind spots.But I do that every day. Every day. And if I thought that I could lead to the end of war, genocide, violence, evil in a scaled way I would work much harder to bring that about. I'd have to think about how it fits into all the things I'm doing and balance. But I really wanna know how someone like, I, I would hope for example, that the service guild at some point will have a peace department.Currently, we, as we have a love department, a curiosity department, an empowerment department. I would love for us to have a peace department. I want other departments, us to be able to have infrastructure for other focused crews. At some point it's the Peace Department should be bringing about peace.And I don't know how to do that. Even peace Pilgrim my hero, she spent 30 years working in the way that she knew how for peace. And I don't think she wasted her time far from it. But there is still not peace on earth after her doing that. Vince: Sure. Some of this reminds me, has echoes of the effect of al altruism movement.Yeah.Tasshin: I think they I feel how to put this, I have different aesthetic and ideological views with them on specific points, but I feel very sympathetic to their larger efforts and yeah, what do we actually do to actually have a real impact? I feel very I feel kinship with that, even if there's specific things I disagree with or don't vibe with.So yeah, that's noted. Vince: Yeah, I think if we were to zoom, like not to take the two global perspective of like, how do we stop all genocide, war, et cetera. And that's a good question, but to me it's like, how do we stop this specific one that's happening right now, Tasshin: Uhhuh.Like how, Vince: Because that's sure. So how do we stop it? Obviously you Tasshin: don't have to know, but what a different way of putting the question that's maybe a bit more reasonable. I think it, it's very Vince: noble. Like you, you stop Israel from killing Palestinians. That's how it, okay. And what leads Tasshin: to that causally?Vince: Probably having a Palestinian state would be a necessary part of that. And what leads to that? The US has to stop vetoing it in the us. And what leads Tasshin: to that? Vince: They change in US leadership and change. And what leads to that? People putting pressure and voting and grassroots organ organizing.Ah, that's Tasshin: where you lose me. Vince: Yeah. Look at look at Zohran Mamdani. He's a good example of how that's actually happening right now in the, he's the only candidate, like major candidate that I've seen recent in recent times. Progressive candidate who's actually vocal about this, who isn't on the, both parties, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump both supported the ongoing genocide. They're equally complicit. Tasshin: So basically we should or not leaders that are clear this in your perspective. What I'm hearing is Yeah. Yeah. The salient thing is elect leaders who are clear that this is a genocide who will end us complicitness and help and who are focused on economic populism.Vince: because our country really need, we need that right now. Tasshin: You lost me there. How does, what does that have to do with ending this genocide? Vince: You could it's both and so it's if you look at, this is a good example, I think part of, I grew up in the as probably you did too, in the.In the fading years of the political consensus between the neo-conservative and neoliberal parties, Tasshin: Uhhuh, Vince: who largely agreed on most everything, Tasshin: Uhhuh. Vince: They were both totally fine with military expansion. They were both fine with free trade agreements that hollowed out rural America and towns like in North Carolina, textile towns.Yeah. To save 5 cents, on a shirt made in Vietnam, we're totally fine letting an entire communities die, In towns we haul it out. So it's that kind of mentality, it's like what I grew up in and, it's like the arguments were mostly like stylistic. It's which style of the same ideology do you prefer?Tasshin: Coke versus Pepsi Vince: Ex. Exactly right. Coke and Pepsi. And Obama. He was, you fit right into this. He was not a departure, he was a rhetorician. Tasshin: Yeah,Vince: he sounded like a departure, but wasn't so true. Bestie. Yep. I think when I look at it in those terms, I say, okay what is so interesting about Donald Trump and the MAGA movement?It is actually presenting an alternative to the previous consensus. And I, the way I see American politics right now, and I could be wrong, is there's an emerging, there's a new emerging polarity. That alt left and right, quote unquote yeah, gosh, ne neo fascism and neo progressivism.And there's, and are you saying Tasshin: neo progressivism is the answer here? Vince: I'm, no, I'm not actually Uhhuh. Okay. Although, because some neo fascists don't want us to be sending money to Israel, Tasshin: Uhhuh, Vince: Marjorie Taylor Greene there, there's been a number that recently people who are like, why are we sending billions of dollars to Israel every year when we can't even take care of our own people?Yeah. And so I agree with that Uhhuh, what I actually think is emerging and has to emerge as an alt middle. It's a new. Consensus. And that alt middle will almost certainly not wanna continue propping up an American em military empire. Both alt-right and alt left. That's something they agree on.They don't want to be constantly waging endless wars. They don't wanna be always sending all of our money into our military budget. And is Tasshin: that connected to the populism you're talking about? Vince: Yeah, it is. Okay. It's a it's a strand of populism that's interested in retracting the American Empire and not continuing to create so many problems abroad.And who recognizes that doing so hurts us at home, Uhhuh, and because these things are interconnected. I see. Tasshin: Okay. Thank you for explaining that. Can I recount what I heard just now? Your, I, our, a shared goal that we have is we would like this war, genocide, violence, evil to end. We'd like it to end.And the way that comes about is Israel stops doing what it's doing. And the way that comes about is Palestine is a state and the US stops vetoing certain things at the un. And the way that happens is there's political pressure on the US to show up in a different way. And you're saying that the way that happens is we elect politicians who are want that course of action and also care about this populism and the relationship of how we're spending our money at home.Yeah. And the way that we do that is get involved in local political movements that support candidates that have that perspective. Vince: I think that's one of the most direct ways that uhhuh, that we can as Americans affected this. I'll tell Tasshin: you right now, I, I need to do due diligence on learning more about this, but I will very seriously both take that into consideration for my own voting and then also in how I speak about voting to my friends and people I'm connected to.That's not much. But this is more. That's what I really care about. I wanna make sure that whatever actions I take, I am that I can see. It matters to me that I can see how there could be a causal chain where this actually results in the things that we want, if that makes sense.I don't know why that matters to me so much, but it does. Vince: Yeah. Okay. We haven't talked about Bodhi Safa hood yet. Yes. So maybe I could bring that in. Yeah. Tasshin: Thank God, please. Someone helped me. Yeah. Vince: I don't know if you, it's a Tasshin: struggle out here. Vince: I don't know if you've heard this quote from Ujima Roshi Japanese Zen teacher.He said a Bodhi Safa is an ordinary person who acts like a true adult. Tasshin: I had never heard that before, but I love it. And what does true adult mean to you? Vince: I think a true adult is someone who sees a problem and they respond to it. And. A true adult recognizes the complexity of the situation and acts anyway with that with incomplete information with whatever resources and ability that they have while acknowledging that they're limited.So that's a start. True adult cares about themselves and others. I could even, I could actually inhabit as a true adult. I both take care of my life at home and I care about the impacts that that the country and systems I'm embedded in are having in the world. That I'm causal in, that I have some causal influence over, even if it's minimal.Tasshin: You know what I'm reminded of Vince is video game levels and I feel like. It seems it seems cr crass to pick levels, but I feel like, I don't know, let's say a level eight Bodhi Safa I'm not level one anymore. I'm not even level five anymore, but I feel acutely, like I'm really only level eight and I think it's gonna there are 10 Vince: levels aren't there In this game?I, oh no. Bodhi the boomie, the boom. No.Tasshin: I know what you're talking about. But also that's not the measurement system I'm using. Okay. You're not, Vince: it's not a traditional boomy model. No. Tasshin: I'm thinking like, I never played it, but like World of Warcraft, I'm pretty sure 80 is like a threshold in World of Warcraft.It's I'm pretty sure you need like a level 60 or 70 Bodhi Safa to have global systemic change at the level that's needed for the thing we're talking about. And I'm like I know if I have a friend that has a mental health crisis, like I'm struggling to barely be able to support them in a meaningful way.Like I'm embarrassed by how. Incompetent. I am at even that helping one person that's having a mental health crisis. Like I can help a little bit, but like I know someone who's an extended network right now is having their partner's having a major schizophrenic episode and I'm like, here, I can send you a link that might help you.That's that's so pathetic. That is so disgustingly pathetic for actually having an impact in the world. It's humiliating to admit, but here we are because there's real suffering and you have to do whatever we can to help. And so I would like to it would be great if I ended this year as a level nine Bodhi, that would be awesome.And do I want to have global systemic positive change on a historic scale? Absolutely. I hope that every passing year I'm more and more capable of. Large scale, positive impact, and I'm just so acutely aware of how incompetent I am and how limited I'm really doing everything I can to have a positive impact at the scale that I can right now.And it's it's pathetic and humiliating in the context of this larger suffering. I'm fine with that. I'm not embarrassed to say that, but it is humbling, it's it's not nearly good enough. And I think the more acquainted you are with how much suffering there is in the universe, the more humbled you are by that, by one's own incompetence to, and then you do, that's the Bodhi SA of vows, anyway, is just to be like greed, hatred, and end without end like vow to end it. Like you just, you get up and do something anyway. Vince: Yeah. I've. There's a distinction that's commonly made in like a, I would call it like in the woke pluralistic cultural scene of like intention versus impact.And that's an important distinction when you're starting to get into questions of race and racialization, because people will say things with a good intentions that hurt other people because they're ignorant of the impact that has for someone else. And here I think it's I think of that too with what you're saying, where it's okay yeah, like I want to become a, be a more impactful Bodhi Safa.I want to have a more net positive impact in the world. And on the one hand yeah, I could say, like you're saying it, I feel humbled and maybe embarrassed by how ineffectual I am. And. I also feel humble about the fact that I don't know the impact that I'm having. I don't understand it. And I feel like this is really, you probably have had a similar experience putting media out into the worlds, like with Buddhist geeks when we launched that, the hundreds and hundreds of people that I heard from over the years who are like, that had such a powerful impact on my life.And I'm like wow, okay. I, that was definitely not what I was aiming for. I was just doing something I thought was cool at the time. Honestly. And so that wasn't even necessarily my intention, but that was the impact. And so I'm amazed, I am amazed at how effective people can be without even knowing it. It's like hard sometimes. Hard to know. It's hard to measure. And that's where I would say it's the challenge here with what you're saying is I want to see if I'm effect. You have to be able to measure the effectiveness to be able to know, and we can't fully measure, we can get better at measuring, like we can maybe get more sophisticated in seeing and understanding our impact both negative and positive.But it's really difficult without going into you really have to have an understanding of the whole to be able to see your individual impacts on the whole. And I don't know, where am I going with this? Just to say there's some kind of feedback loop here that I think is like what the Bodhi Safa is driven by.It's like constantly coming back to. A wise or compassionate intention. And then do trying your best to live from that place, even if you're, not effectual. And then doing your best to understand the impacts of your actions So that, you can, that can inform how you act the next time that you're trying to be, coming from this place of genuine wisdom and compassion. And there's some kind of sharpening of like skillful means that happens in this feedback loop. Tasshin: Yeah. Vince: And to me, it's like the Bodhi Safa is one who's engaged in the pro in that process rather than Yes. Then there are different levels then are depths or degrees of skillfulness.And probably in different domains too.Tasshin: Yeah, of course. Multiple axes. Vince: So I hear what you're saying and I think that's valid. Like it isn't up to any, I don't think it's up to individuals to solve the global challenges.Tasshin: No, but I'm also like, I'm aware that I think I am I was just humble, so now I can be a little arrogant.I think I'm uniquely well-suited to create systems that actually do have causal impact on the historic scale over time. It just takes a long time and it takes very careful thought and a lot of care and consideration and love and effort. And so I would like to build systems that have a net positive historic impact on the scale of humanization.And as far as I can tell I'm playing my cards that way, where like I would really hope that if we fast forwarded 30 or 40 years, we would be like, Hey. The Service Guild did really good stuff that was net positive on human society and our civilization and the planet. And of course there'll be fuckups along the way where we mess up and I make just dumb mistakes and whatever.But I would hope that it's net positive and that it has a genuinely historic obvious impact on the world that was positive. So that's part of why my care, that's why I would wanna have this conversation at all, is like, how can I build systems that actually do have that kind of impact on ending, yeah.Including ending violence of all kinds and this conflict, this genocide, this war, this evil in particular. Vince: Yeah. I think that's a great intention. I, there's like a, there's a quote in the Bava Gita that's coming to mind. I can't remember the exact quote, but it's some, something about acting without any thought of results or it's happens in that famous dialogue between Krishna and Arjuna. Yeah, there's Tasshin: a difference in da I, I've been influenced a lot by DAAs strategy, and they talk a lot about the difference between means ends and conditions, consequences.And we're really trying to create the conditions for good consequences. So can I guarantee that we would have a particular result? Absolutely not, but absolutely not. But I think we can create the conditions for historic benevolent beneficent impact.Vince: It's interesting you're talking about a guild. Because to me it's I think of the Bodhi Safa as a more of like a. A relational phenomena. Tasshin: It's Vince: Team Bodhi Safa. Rather than a Bodhi Safa.And so it seems like a lot of the challenge here is around coordinating and connecting and aligning, collective alignment. And these are the things I think are very hard for people who've been trained to individuate and who are focused on their own agency. John Vey, the philosopher, he points out like when you take role, you are rolling yourself into that. You're losing a certain kind of agency by inhabiting a role, say role of father, role of teacher role of whatever you're limiting yourself in that role.And, but, and yet you have to play roles in cult in community Tasshin: to do anything. Yep. Vince: So I guess, yeah I don't know where to go from there. From here. Tasshin: I would summarize our conversation so far as follows. TPOT such as it is an emergent developmental p

In this episode I am joined by Victor Shiryaev a teacher of Buddhist and modern meditation and somatic practices. Victor recounts his childhood in the Soviet Union, early underground exposure to the New Age, and subsequent study of Avaita Vedānta and Ken Wilber's Integral Theory. Victor details his discipleship under American mindfulness teacher Shinzen Young, reflects on the tension between tradition and innovation, and shares stories of his own awakening experiences. Victor also lays out his disagreements with Shinzen Young's approach, critiques the Pragmatic Dharma's use of maps and stages, and presents his own understanding of the spiritual experiences to be expected on the road to awakening and beyond. … Video version: https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep318-modern-mindfulness-victor-shiryaev Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast'.
 … Topics include: 00:00 - Intro 00:56 - Childhood in the Soviet Union 02:24 - Exposure to the New Age and psychotherapy 07:15 - Studying Chinese History at university 08:07 - Advaita Vedānta and Ken Wilber 09:18 - Unity experience 10:21 - Altered states and psychic phenomena 13:14 - Personal crisis 14:52 - Awakening in Myanmar 17:19 - “I know what I have is working” 19:17 - Meeting Shinzen Young and adopting his model 24:50 - Observational statistics 27:29 - Studying with Shinzen 29:27 - Divorce and launching meditation teaching career 31:00 - Finding a path thru crisis 37:10 - Writing a letter to nature 42:48 - Finding purpose in spirituality 44:15 - Victor's teaching approach and activities 48:58 - Why go deeper in practice? 51:17 - Creating a culture of openness 58:33 - Shinzen & Ken Wilber vs Victor 01:05:16 - Being a clear conduit 01:19:32 - I am not a Buddhist teacher 01:12:40 - Experience vs faith 01:15:58 - Disagreements with Shinzen 01:17:43 - Disagreements with Theravāda 01:19:32 - Shinzen's modernism and scientism 01:25:19 - Steve's understanding of Shinzen 01:28:15 - Victor's update on Shinzen's scientism 01:30:50 - Heretics and reformers 01:33:39 - Fundamentalism and the world-centred view 01:30:39 - A world-centred view is also fundamentalist 01:42:50 - Victor on the Pragmatic Dharma movement 01:46:55 - Hypocrisy of Pragmatic Dharma 01:49:29 - Traditional vs modern practitioners 01:58:13 - Critique of maps and stages 02:06:18 - First stage: thoughts to presence 02:09:41 - Second stage: all experience is consciousness 02:12:09 - One taste 02:13:38 - Intimacy with all things 02:15:26 - The consciousness trap 02:18:18 - We shape our experience 02:19:10 - The pregnant void 02:22:32 - Victor's view of the path To find out more about Victor Shiryaev, visit: - https://victorshiryaev.co/ … For more interviews, videos, and more visit: - www.guruviking.com Music ‘Deva Dasi' by Steve James

Send us a Positive Review!Series Title: Polarization, Trump Victories, & the Story of Human Progression (& Regression) [Part IV of IV] In today's final episode of this thought provoking series, Val & Nathan discuss on-the-ground ways that we each can invite the 'better angels of our natures' into our own worldviews and personal dialogue with those in other stages of development.  They emphasizes the importance of validating diverse perspectives, embodying compassion, and finding common values for a more unified future.  This episode lands where all of Val's & Nathan's work endeavors to arrive:  that the ultimate healing & growth come from embodying more and more love.  If we cannot love those in earlier stages of development, why would they be motivated to grow and evolve?  Stay tuned for a couple of episodes where Val & Nathan look at specific examples of 'transcending & including' challenging ideas & people in both the political world of today & in today's polarized LDS spectrum.  This series will be most effectively understood & integrated by those who are full access listeners and therefore will drop every Friday for the next four weeks. Thank you for your ongoing support!**The ideas from this are drawn from the scholarship of Ken Wilber and his insightful book 'A Post-Truth World: Politics, Polarization, and a Vision for Transcending the Chaos'00:00 Introduction and Series Overview00:13 Ken Wilber's Theories on Development02:33 Understanding the Trump Victory05:20 The Failure of the Woke Movement07:07 Proposals for Moving Forward08:57 The Importance of Hierarchies16:16 Embracing Multiculturalism and Inclusion23:40 Modeling Compassion and Peacemaking27:55 Addressing Root Causes of Behavior35:56 Finding Common Values37:09 Navigating the Social Culture Wars37:27 Respecting Traditions and Integrating Narratives40:10 Effective Communication and Shared Experiences41:12 What Not to Do: Avoiding Common Pitfalls44:20 Connecting with Modern Rationalists50:38 Principles for Approaching Different Levels of Development57:34 Embodying True Cosmo-Centric Values01:03:22 Final Thoughts and Future DirectionsSupport the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

Send us a Positive Review!Series Title: Polarization, Trump Victories, & the Story of Human Progression (& Regression) [Part III of IV] In this episode Val & Nathan discuss how societies evolve upward in love, inclusion, & consciousness, unless something goes terribly wrong from those on the leading edge of consciousness. In short, if the leading edge does not both 'transcend' in consciousness but ALSO 'include' the value of the earlier stages, then evolution is prone to halt or even move into a regression of consciousness.  Looking at our current climate of political polarization, Val & Nathan analyze how the woke movement's shortcomings and Trump's rise in power reflect deeper issues in how societies advance, or don't advance, when course correction is needed. The conversation centers on how the failure to love and include earlier developmental stages can regress societal progress.  This phenomenon is not so much about politics as it is about human (and society's) growth & development.   They will be going much deeper into this topic as it relates to religion and the LDS faith in later episodes.  This series will be most effectively understood & integrated by those who are full access listeners and therefore will drop every Friday for the next four weeks. Thank you for your ongoing support!**The ideas from this are drawn from the scholarship of Ken Wilber and his insightful book 'A Post-Truth World: Politics, Polarization, and a Vision for Transcending the Chaos,'Support the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

Send us a Positive Review!Series Title: Polarization, Trump Victories, & the Story of Human Progression (& Regression) [Part II of IV] In this episode Val & Nathan hone in on the postmodern era: its highlights & valuable contributions along with its flaws, floundering, and eventual failure due to its eventual complete rejection of truth.  Rejection of truth led to the loss of shared cultural identity, meaning, influence, and most significantly nurtured the polarization that culminated in the rise of Donald Trump, who happened to be at the 'right place at the right time' to become the 'strongman' for millions who may have been voting more against a failed postmodern 'woke' world than for the candidate himself.  This series will be most effectively understood & integrated by those who are full access listeners and therefore will drop every Friday for the next four weeks. Thank you for your ongoing support!  **The ideas from this are drawn from the scholarship of Ken Wilber and his insightful book 'A Post-Truth World: Politics, Polarization, and a Vision for Transcending the Chaos,'Support the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

Send us a Positive Review!Series Title: Polarization, Trump Victories, & the Story of Human Progression (& Regression) [Episode I of IV]Join Valerie and Nathan in this time-sensitive four-part series looking at our current hyperpolarized political climate through the lens of stages of human & societal consciousness evolution.This episode sets the stage in building a case that following a strong start in the 1960's, our society's cohort at leading edge of consciousness failed & their lack of direction & failed leadership paved a path to two Trump presidencies. Wait, what? You ask? Your liberal worldview is partially responsible for the chaos that we are experiencing? If you want some food for thought on how religious systems, political systems, and societies at large advanced to their healthiest potential, this special series is for YOU. This series will be most effectively understood & integrated by those who are full access listeners and therefore will drop every Friday for the next four weeks. Thank you for your ongoing support!  **The ideas from this are drawn from the scholarship of Ken Wilber and his insightful book 'A Post-Truth World: Politics, Polarization, and a Vision for Transcending the Chaos,'Support the show Listen, Share, Rate & Review EPISODES Friday Episodes Annual Access $89 Friday Episodes Monthly Access $10 Valerie's Support & Processing Groups Gift a Scholarship Download Free Resources Visit our Website

About This EpisodeWhat if the collapse of old systems — the patriarchy, relentless productivity, and hollow doing — is really the birth pangs of something necessary and beautiful? In this conversation, I sit down with Leo Marrs, a writer, creative strategist, experience designer, and the author of the upcoming The New Creator: Rise of the Mindful Artist in the New Meaning Economy.Leo's story begins in the wilds of Alaska and weaves through entrepreneurship, breathwork, altered states of consciousness, and a deep remembering that we are it — the universe expressing itself creatively through us.In this episode, we explore:How the collapse of old systems can feel like existential fight-or-flight — and yet a creative rebirth.Leo's spontaneous awakening that revealed the creative intelligence suffusing everything.The essential role of art, vision, and imagination in shaping futures worth living.How to engage with technology — including AI — without losing our humanity.Why presence might be our greatest creative “technology” yet.How to drop the striving and become the mindful artist you already are.If you feel called to make things that truly matter, this conversation is for you.Listen NowApple Podcasts: [listen here]Spotify: [Lissten here] Links & ResourcesConnect with Leo Marrs: https://www.leomarrs.comLeo's upcoming book: The New Creator: Rise of the Mindful Artist in the New Meaning Economy (sign up on Leo's site for updates)Referenced in this episode:Integral Theory by Ken Wilber — https://integrallife.com/The Image of the Future by Fred Polak — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_PolakMoga Dot (AI & ethics) The Telepathy Tapes podcast — https://thetelepathytapes.com/ Aphantasia resources — https://aphantasia.comTimestamps00:00 — Welcoming Leo and the collective moment we're in04:00 — Leo's spontaneous awakening in the shower12:00 — The power of image, vision, and art to shape the future20:00 — Engaging with AI and collective intelligence mindfully30:00 — Aphantasia, inner knowing, and hidden gifts of not seeing42:00 — Why we must learn to trust uncertainty50:00 — The billboard message: You're it — becoming the mindful artist you already areGo DeeperRead my blog reflections on this episode inside PatreonGet bonus episodes, reflections, and community connection: [Patreon]Subscribe to the Creative Genius Newsletter hereIf You Loved This EpisodeShare it with a friend — it helps so much.Leave a review on Apple Podcasts — your words help Creative Genius reach more people who need it.Join our warm, growing community on Patreon for more bonus episodes, guided reflections, and ways to connect with others on this path.Stay ConnectedFollow me on Instagram: @kateshepherdcreative & @thecreativegeniuspodcastFollow Leo: @theleomarrsReach out to me directly hereThank you for listening — keep making things that matter.

Today on Sense of Soul we have Karuna! For over 40 years, she has studied Yoga, working from the "inside out." Her certification is with the Kundalini Research Institute (KRI) including Level One, Two, and Three Teacher Training Programs and Prenatal Yoga. She practices Ayurvedic healing and is an ordained Interfaith Minister.   As co-founder of Light on Light Publications and Media, Karuna is the host editor for its magazine's annual Yoga editions in partnership with the International Day of Yoga Committee at the United Nations. In this interview she shares her wisdom and her new book, Light on Kundalini: Your Lifestyle Guide to Yoga and Awakening. In this fascinating read, Karuna recounts her life experiences with notables such as fashion icons Guy Bourdin, Eileen Ford, Laura Ashley, Vogue and Mademoiselle, well-known film directors and actors, alongside spiritual leaders Father Thomas Keating, Ken Wilber, and many others. Her stories of being poked, provoked, and confronted, which eventually led to surrender, change, and elevated awakening, will resonate with your audience and provide guidance and support as they find a way in and through their challenges. Find out more at https://lightonkundalini.com