Podcast appearances and mentions of neil mcdonald

Originally issued - December 15, 2023In this episode, I talk to Neil McDonald about magic, megaliths and energy lines - amongst other topics.Neil has a great interest in our ancient and pre-history and has studied the subject for many years with a particular fascination with it's more unexplained aspects.For over twenty years, Neil has been leading groups of interested people on specialist tours of ancient, mystical and historical sites. TV and radio appearances have included; BBC Radio 4's ‘Excess Baggage', Edge Media TV's, ‘Now That's Weird', Glastonbury Radio's ‘Mysterious West' and BBC Radio Lancashire. Neil also runs the yearly, ‘Mysterious Earth Conference'. Find out more about Neil and his Megalithic tours at https://megalithictours.com/ and check out his youtube channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfOpskS3LYDmnwniW8aHjvgBuy Neil and Thomas's Book on Atlantis - https://amzn.to/3v4hROlBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-magical-world-of-g-michael-vasey--4432257/support.

Originally released - February 2, 2024As promised, I had Neil back and the timing was fortuitous as we could discuss the new book that he and Thomas Sheridan are about to publish on Berenger Sauniere - the Priest at the center of the Rennes Le Chateau mystery.In this podcast we start and finish talking about the book and wander off into topics like Templars, reincarnation, megaliths and more along the way. Neil has a great interest in our ancient and pre-history and has studied the subject for many years with a particular fascination with it's more unexplained aspects. For over twenty years, Neil has been leading groups of interested people on specialist tours of ancient, mystical and historical sites. TV and radio appearances have included; BBC Radio 4's ‘Excess Baggage', Edge Media TV's, ‘Now That's Weird', Glastonbury Radio's ‘Mysterious West' and BBC Radio Lancashire. Neil also runs the yearly, ‘Mysterious Earth Conference'.Find out more about Neil and his Megalithic tours at https://megalithictours.com/ and check out his youtube channel at @neilmcdonaldsmegalithictoursBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-magical-world-of-g-michael-vasey--4432257/support.

Gold Hydrogen Ltd (ASX:GHY) managing director Neil McDonald joins Proactive's Tylah Tully to discuss the company's expanded exploration footprint in South Australia. It has been awarded a new petroleum licence (PELA 792), adding approximately 1,900 square kilometres to its exploration footprint, which now spans 77,292 square kilometres. The licence includes three areas, one adjacent to PELA 688, held by subsidiary Byrock Resources Pty Ltd, and two sections on the Eyre Peninsula, close to the state's planned hydrogen power infrastructure in Whyalla and Port Bonython. The South Australian Government's Hydrogen Jobs Plan allocates A$500 million for a 200-megawatt hydrogen power plant and electrolyser near Whyalla, anticipated to be operational by early 2026. Additionally, the Port Bonython Hydrogen Hub, in collaboration with private industry, will support renewable hydrogen production, enhancing South Australia's hydrogen export capacity. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #ASX #Exploration #HydrogenPower #SouthAustralia #PELA792 #RenewableEnergy #HydrogenJobsPlan #NaturalHydrogen #HeliumExploration #Whyalla #PortBonython #ASX #ResourceExploration #GreenEnergy #EnergyTransition #HydrogenHub #SustainableMining #CleanEnergy #EnvironmentalStewardship #EnergyStorage

Gold Hydrogen Ltd (ASX:GHY) managing director Neil McDonald joins Proactive's Tylah Tully to discuss the company's latest discovery. In collaboration with Oxford University, it has identified Helium-3, a rare isotope essential for nuclear fusion, at its Ramsay Project in South Australia. Helium-3, which is valued at more than $2,500 per litre, holds critical applications in nuclear fusion, quantum computing and advanced cryogenics, given its neutron absorption properties. Previously, this isotope was only accessible via nuclear by-products or costly extraterrestrial mining initiatives. Samples from Ramsay, drawn from depths of 280 to 1,000 metres, showed Helium-3 concentrations reaching 901 ppt with purity levels as high as 36.9%, some of the highest globally recorded. This finding could provide an accessible, Earth-based supply of Helium-3, mitigating the need for costly lunar mining. Gold Hydrogen is furthering research on Ramsay's reserves, including flow rates and geotechnical analysis, with aims to enhance separation methods for Helium-3 and Helium-4. This development aligns with increasing global support for fusion energy, as commercial interest in this clean, sustainable power source accelerates. Strategic partnerships are underway to scale Helium-3 recovery, potentially positioning Ramsay as a premier site for fusion-related resources. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #Helium3 #NuclearFusion #RamsayProject #OxfordUniversity #CleanEnergy #QuantumComputing #RareIsotope #FusionTechnology #StockSurge #EnergyResearch #GlobalEnergy #RenewableResources #Cryogenics #IsotopeDiscovery #SouthAustralia #NuclearInnovation #EnergyFuture #SustainableTech #Fusion

Gold Hydrogen Ltd (ASX:GHY) managing director Neil McDonald sits down with Proactive's Tylah Tully to discuss promising results from testing at the Ramsay Project on the Yorke Peninsula in South Australia. Testing focused on natural hydrogen and helium extraction, with Gold Hydrogen recording helium purity levels as high as 36.9% at the well head, which are among the highest globally for a non-petroleum system. Additional helium purity levels between 20% and 25% were confirmed by the CSIRO noble gas laboratory in Australia. Highlights of the testing program include successful extraction of helium to the surface, further confirmation of the Kulpara Dolomite formation as a potentially prolific helium zone and positive results from 2D seismic surveys identifying future drilling targets. The company is preparing new drilling designs to optimise extraction and has begun analysis at specialist laboratories in Australia, London and Paris, with final results expected soon. The Ramsay Project has potential to become a commercially significant producer of both natural hydrogen and helium, supported by early drilling data and high helium purity levels, positioning Gold Hydrogen as a key player in this emerging sector. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #ASX #RamsayProject #HeliumPurity #NaturalHydrogen #KulparaDolomite #CSIRO #SeismicSurvey #WellTesting #HydrogenEconomy #HeliumExtraction #YorkePeninsula #ExplorationDrilling #NaturalResources #GasExploration #AustraliaMining #EnergySector #HydrogenResources #HeliumIndustry #GeologicalSurvey #ASX #GoldHydrogen #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews

Gold Hydrogen Ltd (ASX:GHY) managing director Neil McDonald sits down with Proactive's Jonathan Jackson to discuss the progress of its exploration of natural hydrogen and helium at the Ramsay Project on the Yorke Peninsula of South Australia. This quarter, the company completed Stage 1 testing and started the next exploration phase. High concentrations of both gases were confirmed in the Ramsay 2 well, with hydrogen purity levels reaching up to 95.8% (air-corrected) at approximately 531 metres deep. Helium levels during initial testing reached 17.5%, with recent results indicating an increase to 20%-25%. Stage 2 testing has begun, focusing on dewatering the well to enhance gas flow to the surface. GHY identified a 180-metre-thick helium pay zone in Stage 1, indicating significant potential for commercial extraction. A 2D seismic survey was also completed to guide future drilling targets and well designs. GHY holds one granted petroleum exploration licence (PEL 687) and has seven additional applications, covering about 75,332 square kilometres. The company ended the quarter with A$15.6 million, supporting its exploration and development plans, including establishing a contingent estimated gas resource for Ramsay. The project's 2U (best estimate) prospective hydrogen resources stand at 1.313 million tonnes with a 10% commercialisation probability (PC). The helium resource (2U prospective) is estimated at 41 billion cubic feet (bcf) with a 10% PC. These resources are conceptual targets requiring further exploration and evaluation. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #ASX #RamsayProject, #YorkePeninsula, #NaturalHydrogen, #HeliumExploration, #HydrogenPurity, #HeliumPurity, #Stage2Testing, #2DSeismicSurvey, #PEL687, #ExplorationGoals, #GasResources, #CommercialExtraction, #HydrogenResources, #HeliumResources, #EnergyExploration, #NaturalGas, #ResourceEvaluation, #AustralianExploration, #GasFlow. #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews

Gold Hydrogen Ltd (ASX:GHY) managing director Neil McDonald sits down with Proactive's Jonathan Jackson to discuss the progress of its exploration of natural hydrogen and helium at the Ramsay Project on the Yorke Peninsula of South Australia. This quarter, the company completed Stage 1 testing and started the next exploration phase. High concentrations of both gases were confirmed in the Ramsay 2 well, with hydrogen purity levels reaching up to 95.8% (air-corrected) at approximately 531 metres deep. Helium levels during initial testing reached 17.5%, with recent results indicating an increase to 20%-25%. Stage 2 testing has begun, focusing on dewatering the well to enhance gas flow to the surface. GHY identified a 180-metre-thick helium pay zone in Stage 1, indicating significant potential for commercial extraction. A 2D seismic survey was also completed to guide future drilling targets and well designs. GHY holds one granted petroleum exploration licence (PEL 687) and has seven additional applications, covering about 75,332 square kilometres. The company ended the quarter with A$15.6 million, supporting its exploration and development plans, including establishing a contingent estimated gas resource for Ramsay. The project's 2U (best estimate) prospective hydrogen resources stand at 1.313 million tonnes with a 10% commercialisation probability (PC). The helium resource (2U prospective) is estimated at 41 billion cubic feet (bcf) with a 10% PC. These resources are conceptual targets requiring further exploration and evaluation. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #ASX #RamsayProject, #YorkePeninsula, #NaturalHydrogen, #HeliumExploration, #HydrogenPurity, #HeliumPurity, #Stage2Testing, #2DSeismicSurvey, #PEL687, #ExplorationGoals, #GasResources, #CommercialExtraction, #HydrogenResources, #HeliumResources, #EnergyExploration, #NaturalGas, #ResourceEvaluation, #AustralianExploration, #GasFlow. #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews

The most enthralling conversation I've ever had with anyone on cancer. It's with Charlie Swanton who is a senior group leader at the Francis Crick Institute, the Royal Society Napier Professor in Cancer and medical oncologist at University College London, co-director of Cancer Research UK.Video snippet from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.Transcript with audio links and many external linksEric Topol (00:07):Well, hello, this is Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I am really fortunate today to connect us with Charlie Swanton, who is if not the most prolific researcher in the space of oncology and medicine, and he's right up there. Charlie is a physician scientist who is an oncologist at Francis Crick and he heads up the lung cancer area there. So Charlie, welcome.Charles Swanton (00:40):Thank you, Eric. Nice to meet you.Learning from a FailureEric Topol (00:43):Well, it really is a treat because I've been reading your papers and they're diverse. They're not just on cancer. Could be connecting things like air pollution, it could be Covid, it could be AI, all sorts of things. And it's really quite extraordinary. So I thought I'd start out with a really interesting short paper you wrote towards the end of last year to give a sense about you. It was called Turning a failing PhD around. And that's good because it's kind of historical anchoring. Before we get into some of your latest contributions, maybe can you tell us about that story about what you went through with your PhD?Charles Swanton (01:26):Yeah, well thank you, Eric. I got into research quite early. I did what you in the US would call the MD PhD program. So in my twenties I started a PhD in a molecular biology lab at what was then called the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, which was the sort of the mecca for DNA tumor viruses, if you like. It was really the place to go if you wanted to study how DNA tumor viruses worked, and many of the components of the cell cycle were discovered there in the 80s and 90s. Of course, Paul Nurse was the director of the institute at the time who discovered cdc2, the archetypal regulator of the cell cycle that led to his Nobel Prize. So it was a very exciting place to work, but my PhD wasn't going terribly well. And sort of 18, 19 months into my PhD, I was summoned for my midterm reports and it was not materializing rapidly enough.(02:25):And I sat down with my graduate student supervisors who were very kind, very generous, but basically said, Charlie, this isn't going well, is it? You've got two choices. You can either go back to medical school or change PhD projects. What do you want to do? And I said, well, I can't go back to medical school because I'm now two years behind. So instead I think what I'll do is I'll change PhD projects. And they asked me what I'd like to do. And back then we didn't know how p21, the CDK inhibitor bound to cyclin D, and I said, that's what I want to understand how these proteins interact biochemically. And they said, how are you going to do that? And I said, I'm not too sure, but maybe we'll try yeast two-hybrid screen and a mutagenesis screen. And that didn't work either. And in the end, something remarkable happened.(03:14):My PhD boss, Nic Jones, who's a great guy, still is, retired though now, but a phenomenal scientist. He put me in touch with a colleague who actually works next door to me now at the Francis Crick Institute called Neil McDonald, a structural biologist. And they had just solved, well, the community had just solved the structure. Pavletich just solved the structure of cyclin A CDK2. And so, Neil could show me this beautiful image of the crystal structure in 3D of cyclin A, and we could mirror cyclin D onto it and find the surface residue. So I spent the whole of my summer holiday mutating every surface exposed acid on cyclin D to an alanine until I found one that failed to interact with p21, but could still bind the CDK. And that little breakthrough, very little breakthrough led to this discovery that I had where the viral cyclins encoded by Kaposi sarcoma herpes virus, very similar to cyclin D, except in this one region that I had found interactive with a CDK inhibitor protein p21.(04:17):And so, I asked my boss, what do you think about the possibility this cyclin could have evolved from cyclin D but now mutated its surface residues in a specific area so that it can't be inhibited by any of the control proteins in the mammalian cell cycle? He said, it's a great idea, Charlie, give it a shot. And it worked. And then six months later, we got a Nature paper. And that for me was like, I cannot tell you how exciting, not the Nature paper so much as the discovery that you were the first person in the world to ever see this beautiful aspect of evolutionary biology at play and how this cyclin had adapted to just drive the cell cycle without being inhibited. For me, just, I mean, it was like a dream come true, and I never experienced anything like it before, and I guess it's sizes the equivalent to me of a class A drug. You get such a buzz out of it and over the years you sort of long for that to happen again. And occasionally it does, and it's just a wonderful profession.Eric Topol (05:20):Well, I thought that it was such a great story because here you were about to fail. I mean literally fail, and you really were able to turn it around and it should give hope to everybody working in science out there that they could just be right around the corner from a significant discovery.Charles Swanton (05:36):I think what doesn't break you makes you stronger. You just got to plow on if you love it enough, you'll find a way forward eventually, I hope.Tracing the Evolution of Cancer (TRACERx)Eric Topol (05:44):Yeah, no question about that. Now, some of your recent contributions, I mean, it's just amazing to me. I just try to keep up with the literature just keeping up with you.Charles Swanton (05:58):Eric, it's sweet of you. The first thing to say is it's not just me. This is a big community of lung cancer researchers we have thanks to Cancer Research UK funded around TRACERx and the lung cancer center. Every one of my papers has three corresponding authors, multiple co-first authors that all contribute in this multidisciplinary team to the sort of series of small incremental discoveries. And it's absolutely not just me. I've got an amazing team of scientists who I work with and learn from, so it's sweet to give me the credit.Eric Topol (06:30):I think what you're saying is really important. It is a team, but I think what I see through it all is that you're an inspiration to the team. You pull people together from all over the world on these projects and it's pretty extraordinary, so that's what I would say.Charles Swanton (06:49):The lung community, Eric, the lung cancer community is just unbelievably conducive to collaboration and advancing understanding of the disease together. It's just such a privilege to be working in this field. I know that sounds terribly corny, but it is true. I don't think I recall a single email to anybody where I've asked if we can collaborate where they've said, no, everybody wants to help. Everybody wants to work together on this challenge. It's just such an amazing field to be working in.Eric Topol (07:19):Yeah. Well I was going to ask you about that. And of course you could have restricted your efforts or focused on different cancers. What made you land in lung cancer? Not that that's only part of what you're working on, but that being the main thing, what drew you to that area?Charles Swanton (07:39):So I think the answer to your question is back in 2008 when I was looking for a niche, back then it was lung cancer was just on the brink of becoming an exciting place to work, but back then nobody wanted to work in that field. So there was a chair position in thoracic oncology and precision medicine open at University College London Hospital that had been open, as I understand it for two years. And I don't think anybody had applied. So I applied and because I was the only one, I got it and the rest is history.(08:16):And of course that was right at the time when the IPASS draft from Tony Mok was published and was just a bit after when the poster child of EGFR TKIs and EGFR mutant lung cancer had finally proven that if you segregate that population of patients with EGFR activating mutation, they do incredibly well on an EGFR inhibitor. And that was sort of the solid tumor poster child along with Herceptin of precision medicine, I think. And you saw the data at ASCO this week of Lorlatinib in re-arranged lung cancer. Patients are living way beyond five years now, and people are actually talking about this disease being more like CML. I mean, it's extraordinary the progress that's been made in the last two decades in my short career.Eric Topol (09:02):Actually, I do want to have you put that in perspective because it's really important what you just mentioned. I was going to ask you about this ASCO study with the AKT subgroup. So the cancer landscape of the lung has changed so much from what used to be a disease of cigarette smoking to now one of, I guess adenocarcinoma, non-small cell carcinoma, not related to cigarettes. We're going to talk about air pollution in a minute. This group that had, as you say, 60 month, five year plus survival versus what the standard therapy was a year plus is so extraordinary. But is that just a small subgroup within small cell lung cancer?Charles Swanton (09:48):Yes, it is, unfortunately. It's just a small subgroup. In our practice, probably less than 1% of all presentations often in never smokers, often in female, never smokers. So it is still in the UK at least a minority subset of adenocarcinomas, but it's still, as you rightly say, a minority of patients that we can make a big difference to with a drug that's pretty well tolerated, crosses the blood-brain barrier and prevents central nervous system relapse and progression. It really is an extraordinary breakthrough, I think. But that said, we're also seeing advances in smoking associated lung cancer with a high mutational burden with checkpoint inhibitor therapy, particularly in the neoadjuvant setting now prior to surgery. That's really, really impressive indeed. And adjuvant checkpoint inhibitor therapies as well as in the metastatic setting are absolutely improving survival times and outcomes now in a way that we couldn't have dreamt of 15 years ago. We've got much more than just platinum-based chemo is basically the bottom line now.Revving Up ImmunotherapyEric Topol (10:56):Right, right. Well that actually gets a natural question about immunotherapy also is one of the moving parts actually just amazing to me how that's really, it's almost like we're just scratching the surface of immunotherapy now with checkpoint inhibitors because the more we get the immune system revved up, the more we're seeing results, whether it's with vaccines or CAR-T, I mean it seems like we're just at the early stages of getting the immune system where it needs to be to tackle the cancer. What's your thought about that?Charles Swanton (11:32):I think you're absolutely right. We are, we're at the beginning of a very long journey thanks to Jim Allison and Honjo. We've got CTLA4 and PD-1/PDL-1 axis to target that's made a dramatic difference across multiple solid tumor types including melanoma and lung cancer. But undoubtedly, there are other targets we've seen LAG-3 and melanoma and then we're seeing new ways, as you rightly put it to mobilize the immune system to target cancers. And that can be done through vaccine based approaches where you stimulate the immune system against the patient's specific mutations in their cancer or adoptive T-cell therapies where you take the T-cells out of the tumor, you prime them against the mutations found in the tumor, you expand them and then give them back to the patient. And colleagues in the US, Steve Rosenberg and John Haanen in the Netherlands have done a remarkable job there in the context of melanoma, we're not a million miles away from European approvals and academic initiated manufacturing of T-cells for patients in national health systems like in the Netherlands.(12:50):John Haanen's work is remarkable in that regard. And then there are really spectacular ways of altering T-cells to be able to either migrate to the tumor or to target specific tumor antigens. You mentioned CAR-T cell therapies in the context of acute leukemia, really extraordinary developments there. And myeloma and diffuse large B-cell lymphoma as well as even in solid tumors are showing efficacy. And I really am very excited about the future of what we call biological therapies, be it vaccines, an antibody drug conjugates and T-cell therapies. I think cancer is a constantly adapting evolutionary force to be reckoned with what better system to combat it than our evolving immune system. It strikes me as being a future solution to many of these refractory cancers we still find difficult to treat.Eric Topol (13:48):Yeah, your point is an interesting parallel how the SARS-CoV-2 virus is constantly mutating and becoming more evasive as is the tumor in a person and the fact that we can try to amp up the immune system with these various means that you just were reviewing. You mentioned the other category that's very hot right now, which is the antibody drug conjugates. Could you explain a bit about how they work and why you think this is an important part of the future for cancer?Antibody-Drug ConjugatesCharles Swanton (14:26):That's a great question. So one of the challenges with chemotherapy, as you know, is the normal tissue toxicity. So for instance, neutropenia, hair loss, bowel dysfunction, diarrhea, epithelial damage, essentially as you know, cytotoxics affect rapidly dividing tissues, so bone marrow, epithelial tissues. And because until relatively recently we had no way of targeting chemotherapy patients experienced side effects associated with them. So over the last decade or so, pioneers in this field have brought together this idea of biological therapies linked with chemotherapy through a biological linker. And so one poster chart of that would be the drug T-DXd, which is essentially Herceptin linked to a chemotherapy drug. And this is just the most extraordinary drug that obviously binds the HER2 receptor, but brings the chemotherapy and proximity of the tumor. The idea being the more drug you can get into the tumor and the less you're releasing into normal tissue, the more on tumor cytotoxicity you'll have and the less off tumor on target normal tissue side effects you'll have. And to a large extent, that's being shown to be the case. That doesn't mean they're completely toxicity free, they're not. And one of the side effects associated with these drugs is pneumonitis.(16:03):But that said, the efficacy is simply extraordinary. And for example, we're having to rewrite the rule books if you like, I think. I mean I'm not a breast cancer physician, I used to be a long time ago, but back in the past in the early 2000s, there was HER2 positive breast cancer and that's it. Now they're talking about HER2 low, HER2 ultra-low, all of which seem to in their own way be sensitive to T-DXd, albeit to a lower extent than HER2 positive disease. But the point is that there doesn't seem to be HER2 completely zero tumor group in breast cancer. And even the HER2-0 seem to benefit from T-DXd to an extent. And the question is why? And I think what people are thinking now is it's a combination of very low cell service expression of HER2 that's undetectable by conventional methods like immunohistochemistry, but also something exquisitely specific about the way in which HER2 is mobilized on the membrane and taken back into the cell. That seems to be specific to the breast cancer cell but not normal tissue. So in other words, the antibody drug conjugate binds the tumor cell, it's thought the whole receptor's internalized into the endosome, and that's where the toxicity then happens. And it's something to do with the endosomal trafficking with the low level expression and internalization of the receptor. That may well be the reason why these HER2 low tumors are so sensitive to this beautiful technology.Eric Topol (17:38):Now I mean it is an amazing technology in all these years where we just were basically indiscriminately trying to kill cells and hoping that the cancer would succumb. And now you're finding whether you want to call it a carry or vector or Trojan horse, whatever you want to call it, but do you see that analogy of the HER2 receptor that's going to be seen across the board in other cancers?Charles Swanton (18:02):That's the big question, Eric. I think, and have we just lucked out with T-DXd, will we find other T-DXd like ADCs targeting other proteins? I mean there are a lot of ADCs being developed against a lot of different cell surface proteins, and I think the jury's still out. I'm confident we will, but we have to bear in mind that biology is a fickle friend and there may be something here related to the internalization of the receptor in breast cancer that makes this disease so exquisitely sensitive. So I think we just don't know yet. I'm reasonably confident that we will find other targets that are as profoundly sensitive as HER2 positive breast cancer, but time will tell.Cancer, A Systemic DiseaseEric Topol (18:49):Right. Now along these lines, well the recent paper that you had in Cell, called embracing cancer complexity, which we've talking about a bit, in fact it's kind of those two words go together awfully well, but hallmarks of systemic disease, this was a masterful review, as you say with the team that you led. But can you tell us about what's your main perspective about this systemic disease? I mean obviously there's been the cancer is like cardiovascular and cancers like this or that, but here you really brought it together with systemic illness. What can you say about that?Charles Swanton (19:42):Well, thanks for the question first of all, Eric. So a lot of this comes from some of my medical experience of treating cancer and thinking to myself over the years, molecular biology has had a major footprint on advances in treating the disease undoubtedly. But there are still aspects of medicine where molecular biology has had very little impact, and often that is in areas of suffering in patients with advanced disease and cancer related to things like cancer cachexia, thrombophilia. What is the reason why patients die blood clots? What is the reason patients die of cancer at all? Even a simple question like that, we don't always know the answer to, on death certificates, we write metastatic disease as a cause of cancer death, but we have patients who die with often limited disease burden and no obvious proximal cause of death sometimes. And that's very perplexing, and we need to understand that process better.(20:41):And we need to understand aspects like cancer pain, for example, circadian rhythms affect biological sensitivity of cancer cells to drugs and what have you. Thinking about cancer rather than just sort of a single group of chaotically proliferating cells to a vision of cancer interacting both locally within a microenvironment but more distantly across organs and how organs communicate with the cancer through neuronal networks, for example, I think is going to be the next big challenge by setting the field over the next decade or two. And I think then thinking about more broadly what I mean by embracing complexity, I think some of that relates to the limitations of the model systems we use, trying to understand inter-organ crosstalk, some of the things you cover in your beautiful Twitter reviews. (←Ground Truths link) I remember recently you highlighted four publications that looked at central nervous system, immune cell crosstalk or central nervous system microbiome crosstalk. It's this sort of long range interaction between organs, between the central nervous system and the immune system and the cancer that I'm hugely interested in because I really think there are vital clues there that will unlock new targets that will enable us to control cancers more effectively if we just understood these complex networks better and had more sophisticated animal model systems to be able to interpret these interactions.Eric Topol (22:11):No, it's so important what you're bringing out, the mysteries that still we have to deal with cancer, why patients have all these issues or dying without really knowing what's happened no less, as you say, these new connects that are being discovered at a remarkable pace, as you mentioned, that ground truths. And also, for example, when I spoke with Michelle Monje, she's amazing on the cancer, where hijacking the brain cells and just pretty extraordinary things. Now that gets me to another line of work of yours. I mean there are many, but the issue of evolution of the tumor, and if you could put that in context, a hot area that's helping us elucidate these mechanisms is known as spatial omics or spatial biology. This whole idea of being able to get the spatial temporal progression through single cell sequencing and single cell nuclei, all the single cell omics. So if you could kind of take us through what have we learned with this technique and spatial omics that now has changed or illuminated our understanding of how cancer evolves?Charles Swanton (23:37):Yeah, great question. Well, I mean I think it helps us sort of rewind a bit and think about evolution in general. Genetic selection brought about by diverse environments and environmental pressures that force evolution, genetic evolution, and speciation down certain evolutionary roots. And I think one can think about cancers in a similar way. They start from a single cell and we can trace the evolutionary paths of cancers by single cell analysis as well as bulk sequencing of spatially separated tumor regions to be able to reconstruct their subclones. And that's taught us to some extent, what are the early events in tumor evolution? What are the biological mechanisms driving branched evolution? How does genome instability begin in tumors? And we found through TRACERx work, whole genome doubling is a major route through to driving chromosome instability along with mutagenic enzymes like APOBEC that drive both mutations and chromosomal instability.(24:44):And then that leads to a sort of adaptive radiation in a sense, not dissimilar to I guess the Cambrian explosion of evolutionary opportunity upon which natural selection can act. And that's when you start to see the hallmarks of immune evasion like loss of HLA, the immune recognition molecules that bind the neoantigens or even loss of the neoantigens altogether or mutation of beta 2 microglobulin that allow the tumor cells to now evolve below the radar, so to speak. But you allude to the sort of spatial technologies that allow us to start to interpret the microenvironments as well. And that then tells us what the evolutionary pressures are upon the tumor. And we're learning from those spatial technologies that these environments are incredibly diverse, actually interestingly seem to be converging on one important aspect I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about, which is the myeloid axis, which is these neutrophils, macrophages, et cetera, that seem to be associated with poor outcome and that will perhaps talk about pollution in a minute.(25:51):But I think they're creating a sort of chronic inflammatory response that allows these early nascent tumor cells to start to initiate into frankly tumor invasive cells and start to grow. And so, what we're seeing from these spatial technologies in lung cancer is that T-cells, predatory T-cells, force tumors to lose their HLA molecules and what have you to evade the immune system. But for reasons we don't understand, high neutrophil infiltration seems to be associated with poor outcome, poor metastasis free survival. And actually, those same neutrophils we've recently found actually even tracked to the metastasis sites of metastasis. So it's almost like this sort of symbiosis between the myeloid cells and the tumor cells in their biology and growth and progression of the tumor cells.Eric Topol (26:46):Yeah, I mean this white cell story, this seems to be getting legs and is relatively new, was this cracked because of the ability to do this type of work to in the past everything was, oh, it's cancer's heterogeneous and now we're getting pinpoint definition of what's going on.Charles Swanton (27:04):I think it's certainly contributed, but it's like everything in science, Eric, when you look back, there's evidence in the literature for pretty much everything we've ever discovered. You just need to put the pieces together. And I mean one example would be the neutrophil lymphocyte ratio in the blood as a hallmark of outcome in cancers and to checkpoint inhibitor blockade, maybe this begins to explain it, high neutrophils, immune suppressive environment, high neutrophils, high macrophages, high immune suppression, less benefit from checkpoint inhibitor therapy, whereas you want lymphocyte. So I think there are biomedical medical insights that help inform the biology we do in the lab that have been known for decades or more. And certainly the myeloid M2 axis in macrophages and what have you was known about way before these spatial technologies really came to fruition, I think.The Impact of Air PollutionEric Topol (28:01):Yeah. Well you touched on this about air pollution and that's another dimension of the work that you and your team have done. As you well know, there was a recent global burden of disease paper in the Lancet, which has now said that air pollution with particulate matter 2.5 less is the leading cause of the burden of disease in the world now.Charles Swanton (28:32):What did you think of that, Eric?Eric Topol (28:34):I mean, I was blown away. Totally blown away. And this is an era you've really worked on. So can you put it in perspective?Charles Swanton (28:42):Yeah. So we got into this because patients of mine, and many of my colleagues would ask the same question, I've never smoked doctor, I'm healthy. I'm in my mid 50s though they're often female and I've got lung cancer. Why is that doctor? I've had a good diet, I exercise, et cetera. And we didn't really have a very good answer for that, and I don't want to pretend for a minute we solved the whole problem. I think hopefully we've contributed to a little bit of understanding of why this may happen. But that aside, we knew that there were risk factors associated with lung cancer that included air pollution, radon exposure, of course, germline genetics, we mustn't forget very important germline variation. And I think there is evidence that all of them are associated with lung cancer risk in different ways. But we wanted to look at air pollution, particularly because there was an awful lot of evidence, several meta-analysis of over half a million individuals showing very convincingly with highly significant results that increasing PM 2.5 micron particulate levels were associated with increased risk of lung cancer.(29:59):To put that into perspective, where you are on the west coast of the US, it's relatively unpolluted. You would be talking about maybe five micrograms per meter cubed of PM2.5 in a place like San Diego or Western California, assuming there aren't any forest fires of course. And we estimate that that would translate to about, we think it's about one extra case of never smoking lung cancer per hundred thousand of the population per year per one microgram per meter cube rise in the pollution levels. So if you go to Beijing for example, on a bad day, the air pollution levels could be upwards of a hundred micrograms per meter cubed because there are so many coal fired power stations in China partly. And there I think the risk is considerably higher. And that's certainly what we've seen in the meta-analyses in our limited and relatively crude epidemiological analyses to be the case.(30:59):So I think the association was pretty certain, we were very confident from people's prior publications  this was important. But of course, association is not causation. So we took a number of animal models and showed that you could promote lung cancer formation in four different oncogene driven lung cancer models. And then the question is how, does air pollution stimulate mutations, which is what I initially thought it would do or something else. It turns out we don't see a significant increase in exogenous like C to A carcinogenic mutations. So that made us put our thinking caps on. And I said to you earlier, often all these discoveries have been made before. Well, Berenblum in 1947, first postulated that actually tumors are initiated through a two-step process, which we now know involves a sort of pre initiated cell with a mutation in that in itself is not sufficient to cause cancer.(31:58):But on top of that you need an inflammatory stimulus. So the question was then, well, okay, is inflammation working here? And we found that there was an interleukin-1 beta axis. And what happens is that the macrophages come into the lung on pollution exposure, engulf phagocytose the air pollutants, and we think what's happening is the air pollutants are puncturing membranes in the lung. That's what we think is happening. And interleukin-1 beta preformed IL-1 beta is being released into the extracellular matrix and then stimulating pre-initiated cells stem cells like the AT2 cells with an activating EGFR mutation to form a tumor. But the EGFR mutation alone is not sufficient to form tumors. It's only when you have the interleukin-1 beta and the activated mutation that a tumor can start.(32:49):And we found that if we sequence normal lung tissue in a healthy adult 60-year-old adult, we will find about half of biopsies will have an activating KRAS mutation in normal tissue, and about 15% will have an activating mutation in EGFR in histologically normal tissue with nerve and of cancer. In fact, my friend and colleague who's a co-author on the paper, James DeGregori, who you should speak to in Colorado, fascinating evolutionary cancer biologists estimates that in a healthy 60-year-old, there are a hundred billion cells in your body that harbor an oncogenic mutation. So that tells you that at the cellular level, cancer is an incredibly rare event and almost never happens. I mean, our lifetime risk of cancer is perhaps one in two. You covered that beautiful pancreas paper recently where they estimated that there may be 80 to 100 KRAS mutations in a normal adult pancreas, and yet our lifetime risk of pancreas cancer is one in 70. So this tells you that oncogenic mutations are rarely sufficient to drive cancer, so something else must be happening. And in the context of air pollution associated lung cancer, we think that's inflammation driven by these white cells, these myeloid cells, the macrophages.Cancer BiomarkersEric Topol (34:06):No, it makes a lot of sense. And this, you mentioned the pancreas paper and also what's going in the lung, and it seems like we have this burden of all you need is a tipping point and air pollution seems to qualify, and you seem to be really in the process of icing the mechanism. And like I would've thought it was just mutagenic and it's not so simple, right? But that gets me to this is such an important aspect of cancer, the fact that we harbor these kind of preconditions. And would you think that cancer takes decades to actually manifest most cancers, or do we really have an opportunity here to be able to track whether it's through blood or other biomarkers? Another area you've worked on a lot whereby let's say you could define people at risk for polygenic risk scores or various cancers or genome sequencing for predisposition genes, whatever, and you could monitor in the future over the course of those high-risk people, whether they were starting to manifest microscopic malignancy. Do you have any thoughts about how long it takes for the average person to actually manifest a typical cancer?Charles Swanton (35:28):That's a cracking question, and the answer is we've got some clues in various cancers. Peter Campbell would be a good person to speak to. He estimates that some of the earliest steps in renal cancer can occur in adolescence. We've had patients who gave up smoking 30 or so years ago where we can still see the clonal smoking mutations in the trunk of the tumor's evolutionary tree. So the initial footprints of the cancer are made 30 years before the cancer presents. That driver mutation itself may also be a KRAS mutation in a smoking cigarette context, G12C mutation. And those mutations can precede the diagnosis of the disease by decades. So the earliest steps in cancer evolution can occur, we think can precede diagnoses by a long time. So to your point, your question which is, is there an opportunity to intervene? I'm hugely optimistic about this actually, this idea of molecular cancer prevention.An Anti-Inflammatory Drug Reduces Fatal Cancer and Lung Cancer(36:41):How can we use data coming out of various studies in the pancreas, mesothelioma, lung, et cetera to understand the inflammatory responses? I don't think we can do very much about the mutations. The mutations unfortunately are a natural consequence of aging. You and I just sitting here talking for an hour will have accumulated multiple mutations in our bodies over that period, I'm afraid and there's no escaping it. And right now there's not much we can do to eradicate those mutant clones. So if we take that as almost an intractable problem, measuring them is hard enough, eradicating them is even harder. And then we go back to Berenblum in 1947 who said, you need an inflammatory stimulus. Well, could we do something about the inflammation and dampen down the inflammation? And of course, this is why we got so excited about IL-1 beta because of the CANTOS trial, which you may remember in 2017 from Ridker and colleagues showed that anti IL-1 beta used as a mechanism of preventing cardiovascular events was associated with a really impressive dose dependent reduction in new lung cancer primaries.(37:49):Really a beautiful example of cancer prevention in action. And that data weren't just a coincidence. The FDA mandated Novartis to collect the solid tumor data and the P-values are 0.001. I mean it's very highly significant dose dependent reduction in lung cancer incidents associated with anti IL-1 beta. So I think that's really the first clue in my mind that something can be done about this problem. And actually they had five years of follow-up, Eric. So that's something about that intervening period where you can treat and then over time see a reduction in new lung cancers forming. So I definitely think there's a window of opportunity here.Eric Topol (38:31):Well, what you're bringing up is fascinating here because this trial, which was a cardiology trial to try to reduce heart attacks, finds a reduction in cancer, and it's been lost. It's been buried. I mean, no one's using this therapy to prevent cancer between ratcheting up the immune system or decreasing inflammation. We have opportunities that we're not even attempting. Are there any trials that are trying to do this sort of thing?Charles Swanton (39:02):So this is the fundamental problem. Nobody wants to invest in prevention because essentially you are dealing with well individuals. It's like the vaccine challenge all over again. And the problem is you never know who you are benefiting. There's no economic model for it. So pharma just won't touch prevention with a barge pole right now. And that's the problem. There's no economic model for it. And yet the community, all my academic colleagues are crying out saying, this has got to be possible. This has got to be possible. So CRUK are putting together a group of like-minded individuals to see if we can do something here and we're gradually making progress, but it is tough.Eric Topol (39:43):And it's interesting that you bring that up because for GRAIL, one of the multicenter cancer early detection companies, they raised billions of dollars. And in fact, their largest trial is ongoing in the UK, but they haven't really focused on high-risk people. They just took anybody over age 50 or that sort of thing. But that's the only foray to try to reboot how we or make an early microscopic diagnosis of cancer and track people differently. And there's an opportunity there. You've written quite a bit on you and colleagues of the blood markers being able to find a cancer where well before, in fact, I was going to ask you about that is, do you think there's people that are not just having all these mutations every minute, every hour, but that are starting to have the early seeds of cancer, but because their immune system then subsequently kicks in that they basically kind of quash it for that period of time?Charles Swanton (40:47):Yeah, I do think that, I mean, the very fact that we see these sort of footprints in the tumor genome of immune evasion tells you that the immune system's having a very profound predatory effect on evolving tumors. So I do think it's very likely that there are tumors occurring that are suppressed by the immune system. There is a clear signature, a signal of negative selection in tumors where clones have been purified during their evolution by the immune system. So I think there's pretty strong evidence for that now. Obviously, it's very difficult to prove something existed when it doesn't now exist, but there absolutely is evidence for that. I think it raises the interesting question of immune system recognizes mutations and our bodies are replete with mutations as we were just discussing. Why is it that we're not just a sort of epithelial lining of autoimmunity with T-cells and immune cells everywhere? And I think what the clever thing about the immune system is it's evolved to target antigens only when they get above a certain burden. Otherwise, I think our epithelial lining, our skin, our guts, all of our tissues will be just full of T-cells eating away our normal clones.(42:09):These have to get to a certain size for antigen to be presented at a certain level for the immune system to recognize it. And it's only then that you get the immune predation occurring.Forever Chemicals and Microplastics Eric Topol (42:20):Yeah, well, I mean this is opportunities galore here. I also wanted to extend the air pollution story a bit. Obviously, we talked about particulate matter and there's ozone and nitric NO2, and there's all sorts of other air pollutants, but then there's also in the air and water these forever chemicals PFAS for abbreviation, and they seem to be incriminated like air pollution. Can you comment about that?Charles Swanton (42:55):Well, I can comment only insofar as to say I'm worried about the situation. Indeed, I'm worried about microplastics actually, and you actually cover that story as well in the New England Journal, the association of microplastics with plaque rupture and atheroma. And indeed, just as in parenthesis, I wanted to just quickly say we currently think the same mechanisms that are driving lung cancer are probably responsible for atheroma and possibly even neurodegenerative disease. And essentially it all comes down to the macrophages and the microglia becoming clogged up with these pollutants or environmental particulars and releasing chronic inflammatory mediators that ultimately lead to disease. And IL-1 beta being one of those in atheroma and probably IL-6 and TNF in neurodegenerative disease and what have you. But I think this issue that you rightly bring up of what is in our environment and how does it cause pathology is really something that epidemiologists have spent a lot of time focusing on.(43:56):But actually in terms of trying to move from association to causation, we've been, I would argue a little bit slow biologically in trying to understand these issues. And I think that is a concern. I mean, to give you an example, Allan Balmain, who works at UCSF quite close to you, published a paper in 2020 showing that 17 out of 20 environmental carcinogens IARC carcinogens class one carcinogens cause tumors in rodent models without driving mutations. So if you take that to a logical conclusion, in my mind, what worries me is that many of the sort of carcinogen assays are based on driving mutagenesis genome instability. But if many carcinogen aren't driving DNA mutagenesis but are still driving cancer, how are they doing it? And do we actually have the right assays to interpret safety of new chemical matter that's being introduced into our environment, these long-lived particles that we're breathing in plastics, pollutants, you name it, until we have the right biological assays, deeming something to be safe I think is tricky.Eric Topol (45:11):Absolutely. And I share your concerns on the nanoplastic microplastic story, as you well know, not only have they been seen in arteries that are inflamed and in blood clots and in various tissues, have they been seen so far or even looked for within tumor tissue?Charles Swanton (45:33):Good question. I'm not sure they have. I need to check. What I can tell you is we've been doing some experiments in the lab with fluorescent microplastics, 2.5 micron microplastics given inhaled microplastics. We find them in every mouse organ a week after. And these pollutants even get through into the brain through the olfactory bulb we think.Charles Swanton (45:57):Permeate every tissue, Eric.Eric Topol (45:59):Yeah, no, this is scary because here we are, we have these potentially ingenious ways to prevent cancer in the future, but we're chasing our tails by not doing anything to deal with our environment.Charles Swanton (46:11):I think that's right. I totally agree. Yeah.Eric Topol (46:15):So I mean, I can talk to you for the rest of the day, but I do want to end up with a topic that we have mutual interest in, which is AI. And also along with that, when you mentioned about aging, I'd like to get your views on these two, how do you see AI fitting into the future of cancer? And then the more general topic is, can we actually at some point modulate the biologic aging process with or without help with from AI? So those are two very dense questions, but maybe you can take us through them.Charles Swanton (46:57):How long have we got?Eric Topol (46:59):Just however long you have.A.I. and CancerCharles Swanton (47:02):AI and cancer. Well, AI and medicine actually in general, whether it's biomedical research or medical care, has just infinite potential. And I'm very, very excited about it. I think what excites me about AI is it's almost the infinite possibilities to work across scale. Some of the challenges we raised in the Cell review that you mentioned, tackling, embracing complexity are perfectly suited for an AI problem. Nonlinear data working, for instance in our fields with CT imaging, MRI imaging, clinical outcome data, blood parameters, genomics, transcriptomes and proteomes and trying to relate this all into something that's understandable that relates to risk of disease or potential identification of a new drug target, for example. There are numerous publications that you and others have covered that allude to the incredible possibilities there that are leading to, for instance, the new identification of drug targets. I mean, Eli Van Allen's published some beautiful work here and in the context of prostate cancer with MDM4 and FGF receptor molecules being intimately related to disease biology.(48:18):But then it's not just that, not just drug target identification, it's also going all the way through to the clinic through drug discovery. It's how you get these small molecules to interact with oncogenic proteins and to inhibit them. And there are some really spectacular developments going on in, for instance, time resolved cryo-electron microscopy, where in combination with modeling and quantum computing and what have you, you can start to find pockets emerging in mutant proteins, but not the wild type ones that are druggable. And then you can use sort of synthetic AI driven libraries to find small molecules that will be predicted to bind these transiently emerging pockets. So it's almost like AI is primed to help at every stage in scientific investigation from the bench all the way through to the bedside. And there are examples all the way through there in the literature that you and others have covered in the last few years. So I could not be more excited about that.Eric Topol (49:29):I couldn't agree with you more. And I think when we get to multimodal AI at the individual level across all their risks for conditions in their future, I hope someday will fulfill that fantasy of primary prevention. And that is getting me to this point that I touched on because I do think they interact to some degree AI and then will we ever be able to have an impact on aging? Most people conflate this because what we've been talking about throughout the hour has been age-related diseases, that is cancer, for example, and cardiovascular and neurodegenerative, which is different than changing aging per se, body wide aging. Do you think we'll ever changed body wide aging?Charles Swanton (50:18):Wow, what a question. Well, if you'd asked me 10 years ago, 15 years ago, do you think we'll ever cure melanoma in my lifetime, I'd have said definitely not. And now look where we are. Half of patients with melanoma, advanced melanoma, even with brain metastasis curd with combination checkpoint therapy. So I never say never in biology anymore. It always comes back to bite you and prove you wrong. So I think it's perfectly possible.Charles Swanton (50:49):We have ways to slow down the aging process. I guess the question is what will be the consequences of that?Eric Topol (50:55):That's what I was going to ask you, because all these things like epigenetic reprogramming and senolytic drugs, and they seem to at least pose some risk for cancer.Charles Swanton (51:09):That's the problem. This is an evolutionary phenomenon. It's a sort of biological response to the onslaught of these malignant cells that are potentially occurring every day in our normal tissue. And so, by tackling one problem, do we create another? And I think that's going to be the big challenge over the next 50 years.Eric Topol (51:31):Yeah, and I think your point about the multi-decade challenge, because if you can promote healthy aging without any risk of cancer, that would be great. But if the tradeoff is close, it's not going to be very favorable. That seems to be the main liability of modulation aging through many of the, there's many shots on goal here, of course, as you well know. But they do seem to pose that risk in general.Charles Swanton (51:58):I think that's right. I think the other thing is, I still find, I don't know if you agree with me, but it is an immense conundrum. What is the underlying molecular basis for somatic aging, for aging of normal tissues? And it may be multifactorial, it may not be just one answer to that question. And different tissues may age in different ways. I don't know. It's a fascinating area of biology, but I think it really needs to be studied more because as you say, it underpins all of these diseases we've been talking about today, cardiovascular, neurodegeneration, cancer, you name it. We absolutely have to understand this. And actually, the more I work in cancer, the more I feel like actually what I'm working on is aging.(52:48):And this is something that James DeGregori and I have discussed a lot. There's an observation that in medicine around patients with alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency who are at higher risk of lung cancer, but they're also at high risk of COPD, and we know the associations of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease with lung cancer risk. And one of the theories that James had, and I think this is a beautiful idea, actually, is as our tissues age, and COPD is a reflection of aging, to some extent gone wrong. And as our tissues age, they become less good at controlling the expansion of these premalignant clones, harboring, harboring oncogenic mutations in normal tissue. And as those premalignant clones expand, the substrate for evolution also expands. So there's more likely to be a second and third hit genetically. So it may be by disrupting the extracellular matrices through inflammation that triggers COPD through alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency or smoking, et cetera, you are less effectively controlling these emergent clones that just expand with age, which I think is a fascinating idea actually.Eric Topol (54:01):It really is. Well, I want to tell you, Charlie, this has been the most fascinating, exhilarating discussion I've ever had on cancer. I mean, really, I am indebted to you because not just all the work you've done, but your ability to really express it, articulate it in a way that hopefully everyone can understand who's listening or reading the transcript. So we'll keep following what you're doing because you're doing a lot of stuff. I can't thank you enough for joining me today, and you've given me lots of things to think about. I hope the people that are listening or reading feel the same way. I mean, this has been so mind bending in many respects. We're indebted to you.Charles Swanton (54:49):Well, we all love reading your Twitter feeds. Keep them coming. It helps us keep a broader view of medicine and biological research, not just cancer, which is why I love it so much.******************************************The Ground Truths newsletters and podcasts are all free, open-access, without ads.Please share this post/podcast with your friends and network if you found it informativeVoluntary paid subscriptions all go to support Scripps Research. Many thanks for that—they greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for 2023 and 2024.Thanks to my producer Jessica Nguyen and Sinjun Balabanoff tor audio and video support at Scripps Research.Note: you can select preferences to receive emails about newsletters, podcasts, or all I don't want to bother you with an email for content that you're not interested in. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

This week on the pod, the gang settles in to the project and describes their experience with Gord's 3rd solo release, The Grand Bounce.Transcript:Track 1:[0:01] Hey, it's Justin. You know and love us on the Discovering Downey podcast, right? So come hang out with us in person for the finale. Join us for Long Slice Brewing Presents, a celebration of Gord Downey at The Rec Room in downtown Toronto on Friday, July 19th. Craig is coming from Vancouver. Kirk is coming from LA. I'm driving from Vermont. And JD is like walking down the street or wherever he lives in Toronto. Tickets are available now on our website at discovererndowney.com. And when you get your tickets, that means you can come hang out with us and our very special guest, Patrick Downey. And you can bid on some incredibly cool silent auction items, all while jamming along with tragically hip cover band The Almost Hip. And most importantly, helping us raise money for the Gord Downey Fund for Brain Cancer Research. Crack open a long slice, put on some Gord tunes, take a journey with us on Discovering Downey, and then crack open another long slice on July 19th and hang out with us in the 6th. I always wanted to sound cool and say that. For more information, follow us on all the socials and visit DiscoveringDowny.com. Cheers.Track 2:[1:23] Thanksgiving. Victims and their victim-ears sit down to Turkey hungry for punishment full of mercury fullimate, serene after the screaming. Grace makes the mouth make shapes it's never made before. We give thanks for the poetry we read and write all day. For freeing us to drink with impunity a toast to no punishment replaces Amen. The prayer is swallowed away for the silence and the quiet carving serene after the was screaming, a little violent, but turkey nevertheless.Track 1:[2:08] Welcome, music lovers. Long Slice Brewery presents Discovering Downey.Track 2:[2:16] Hey, it's J.D. here and welcome back to Discovering Downey. This is an 11-part opus with a focus on Mr. Gord Downey, the late frontman of the Tragically Hip, but somebody who also gave to the world an extensive solo discography. Eight records in total. But have you heard them? That was what I sought out when I enlisted my friends Craig, Justin, and Kirk to discover Downey. These three are giant Tragically Hip fans, but they had little to no exposure with Gord's solo oeuvre. So every week, we get together and listen to one of the records in chronological order and see what we think. Did we miss out? Or did we make the right choice? We're going to find out on Discovering Downey. This week, we're going to dive into Gord's third solo release. This, with The Country of Miracles, it is the grand bounce. Now let's go to the team.Track 1:[3:27] Justin St. Louis, how are you doing this week? Week i'm worn out man and uh i'm ready for this thing to to take over my life tonight and just be back in the normal and enjoy the music and enjoy talking about it with you guys love it yeah kirk where are you headed off to next yeah actually heading off to the big apple nyc i'm uh going to be chaperoning my uh my youngest and they're going to be performing at carnegie so very proud pops Pops. And, uh, we just got back from a really cool trip in Memphis and Nashville and they did really, you know, they did fantastic there. So I've been surrounded by music and, um, that's inspired me, but I'm gonna, you know, concur with Justin and say, I'm definitely looking forward to a discussion about this album. I mean, uh, it's been a pretty cool journey so far, but this, I think this is gonna, this album is going to spark a pretty good conversation in my opinion. So, but doing well and looking forward to traveling again. It'll be interesting for sure. Craig, how are things on the left coast, motherfucker?Track 1:[4:36] Not too bad. Just got back from a family trip to Disneyland that was six years in the making. We tried it, you know, in 2020 and it didn't work out. And so we finally made it down with the kids and spent a few days in LA at the end of the trip and was lucky enough to have Kirk from Chino drive all the way out to LAX and we hooked up for.Track 1:[4:59] Little conversation and yeah, it was cool. It was a good time. Yeah. So first time meeting in person, which was a great night. It was really cool. Yep. No, it worked out actually great. I just got back from that trip with a choir that I'd mentioned and then, uh, hadn't seen my mom in a bit and she was actually staying, um, uh, doing some pet sitting at a house in garden Grove that had some good memories. So it kind of was a half, half the distance to LAX. So it worked out perfect to go and meet you and and i appreciated uh appreciated you giving up some time from your family for a little bit to have a good conversation so and i know it'll carry over tonight well this week on discovering downey we're here to discuss and dissect the june 2010 released from gord and his band the country of miracles consisting of the usual suspects canadian musicians oh.Track 2:[5:48] Man i'm gonna butcher this julie duaron right is that right yeah so she's on vocals guitar and bass then there is gourd's frequent collaborator josh finlayson.Track 1:[6:02] Dale morningstar on lead guitar dave clark on drums and dr p on keyboards chris walla a former member of death cab for cutie turned the knobs on this release but where do you start with the grand bounce it's been seven years and three albums since Gord's last outing, and The Country of Miracles sounds as though they've been chomping at the bit to jam with Gord yet again. This album, to me, is a band album as much as it is a Gord solo affair. As a result, it sounds more cohesive than the previous two releases. While it rarely reaches the heights of Battle of the Nudes, it is a remarkably consistent effort. It's worth noting that the songs on The Grand Bounce seem more structured and maybe even more thought out as three to four minute rock songs that are reminiscent of Gord's day job, The Tragically Hip. There's an energy on this record that's palpable. Perhaps it's the shorthand of working with the same band for three consecutive records?Track 2:[6:58] I'm not sure, but it's there. Now, once we get into the songs on this 50 minute, 13 song opus.Track 1:[7:06] It's tough not to get caught up in the sonic presence that Walla brings to the table. There's a depth to the maturity, And I'll use the term again, a cohesiveness that wasn't as pronounced on the prior two efforts. While the grand bounce is a perfectly fine listen, it's only after letting it grow on you. For me, it sat growing on me since I did the fully and completely podcast. And that to me is when it shows its real prowess, creating earworms and hooks that reel you in and invite you over for dinner just to hang out with the music.Track 1:[7:40] But what do our friends Craig, Justin, and Kirk have to say about the Grand Bounce? Let's not waste any more time and get right to them. Kirk from Chino, talk to me about your first experience with the Grand Bounce. Yeah, well, after we had finished up talking about Battle of the Nudes, I had had some travel for work, and then I was getting some other stuff ready for a very busy week. So I didn't get to jump on to a listen right away. I mean, it was a number of days. But I was doing a walk at night and, you know, cool walk with the dog and had it in my AirPods. And just right away, I was really taken by it. I really felt the maturity of it, you know, very reminiscent of what you had mentioned, JD, in your lead up to, you know, the discussion about the album is it just had a maturity to it. The band, it felt like a band album, exactly what you said. and I, as much as I loved the first two albums, I just felt a comfort. Like the whole time I've listened to this album, which is, I don't know, maybe 15, 20 times at this point, it just, it's a warm blanket to me. It's like, it now is okay.Track 1:[8:57] It's okay, I can like Gord Downie as a solo artist. You know, I just had a great experience with it. I really, really loved it. I could spend a lot of time talking, but I want to hear what the other guys have to say about it. Well, Craig, what do you think? Yeah, this was really a grower for me. I wasn't sure when I first put this on. I didn't think I would like it as much as I do. And overall, I really love this album. I have maybe a couple of critiques, which we'll get to later. Later but my my journey with this album actually goes back to 2015 when you may remember jd that we had a bunch of target stores open in canada in whenever 2010 maybe and they only lasted about four or five years and they went went under and when they were closing down they had cds on sale for five dollars you can get any it could get any cd and i happened upon the grand balance and And actually the next album we'll be doing next week and pick those both up for five bucks. And they sat on open for many years and I just opened them for this podcast. So I I'm lucky enough to have an actual podcast.Track 1:[10:05] Physical copy and the liner notes that came in them so i may be able to offer a few little nuggets um one i would just want to mention off the top chris walla is actually mentioned as a member when it says the country of miracles are and it lists all the members plus him so i believe he was playing guitar on wow much of the album wow very cool some of those videos he was playing so that i'm not surprised by that and i love that thank you for sharing because this is actually the only album that I couldn't get. I tried to get vinyl of everything, but I don't have a CD. So everything has been streaming or online.Track 1:[10:41] And I watched several videos with interviews and he talked specifically about the inlet, the vocal or the lyrics. And you just showed a picture of it, Craig, and it's not the standard sizing that you normally get. So I appreciate you sharing that. That was pretty cool. And I think also what I learned with this album is again, just to trust Trust, you know, Gord, you know, you may not like it right away, but give this album a good listen if you haven't before. It took longer to grow on me than the other two, but highly recommended. Yeah i think a good strategy with this record is to listen the fuck out of it for like two or three days and then put it on the shelf for a week and then pick it up and there's something like kirk was saying that's comforting about it you come back to it and you're like whoa this is really fucking way more hooky than i imagined when i first listened to it but let's uh talk to our friend mr st louis what do you say on the matter of discovering downey v the grand bounce So I also had the word warmth written down, and I did take your strategy, JD, of I listened to it probably 10 times. I started immediately after recording our last episode, which is how I had done the previous. I was like, okay, this is not Battle of the Nudes.Track 1:[12:04] And I immediately heard what I thought was Bob rock sound. But then I realized this isn't Bob rock sound and neither were those other two albums. This is the era that Gord was in with the hip and all of the Bob rock haters probably owe him an apology because this is the type of stuff that Gord was writing at that time. And so it did feel familiar and it did feel comforting and it did feel warm and I liked it. I also, you know, during this time, um, when the album came out i was listening to kings of leon and mumford and sons and stuff like that and there's a lot of that in this in this sound and i you know i was a uh death cab for cutie fan at the time and you know postal service and all that stuff i mean so it was very contemporary for for when it came out and it felt like it belonged in that 2010 range but.Track 1:[12:58] For me, it was a big letdown after Battle of the Nudes, because that album was so damn good. And because we didn't have seven years between recording these episodes for our musical tastes to change, it was like, whoa, this is a massive shift from what we had just digested into this new album. I don't hate it, but I don't think I love it.Track 1:[13:20] Wow. Yeah. I don't see it as such a massive shift. It's going to be interesting as we get into the track by track. Should we do that now, gentlemen? Let's go for it. Let's do it. Okay, the first track on the record is a great one for me in the sense that winter has ended. But when I think about winter, I think about that. I think about Gord standing on the edge of Riverdale Park and having somebody discuss this east wind with him, this strong east wind that blows in and is very cold. And we're going to hear from Craig first on this one. So, Craig, what do you think of the east wind? This is the one song off the album I was familiar with. I had seen maybe a video, I'd heard it quite a few times, and I love it. I think it's a great opener. I want to point something out really quickly that you guys wouldn't necessarily know without the liner notes, but there are Roman numerals, one through four, throughout the album. And at first I thought maybe it was to do with the record I thought maybe the four-sided record which it is, I looked it up but the.Track 1:[14:29] There's three songs per side on the records, and it doesn't quite jive with the numbers in the booklet. So what I think is, I've come up with a little story around, this isn't a concept album by any means, but it's definitely got a story to it. And so I've actually listed what I think the story is about, and I think section one is about a move. And so you've probably done the research too and and gourd at the time was moving up to glenora on the um on the great one of the great lakes so this this first section i think all the songs kind of relate to moving uh the east wind maybe not as much but also interestingly enough the east wind is the only song that doesn't have lyrics printed out in the booklet and i'm not really sure why that would be what yeah so there's a quote at the top it does say the the quote about the east wind is the laziest wind, but right under that is track two. And if you saw some of the video research or YouTube, he talked about it was a neighbor who was a farmer who was describing the east wind, the laziest wind.Track 1:[15:40] So I found that very interesting, Craig, when you proposed the theory of the story. Because I could think to several of the different interviews and different discussions about different songs and how he's definitely pinpointing some real life things that are happening. Like you mentioned the move and, and, uh, obviously some discussions about relationships and, and then he's got his kids involved in some of these songs too. So you may be onto something, my friend. Another theory theory I have is that maybe this song is meant to be like a little bit of an introduction sort of before the story starts. And maybe that's why it didn't have the lyrics in here or maybe it's a misprint who knows, but the song itself musically is, is great. Uh, very much a band jamming again, like we're used to from the previous two albums, but just more layering, more production.Track 1:[16:30] I really love how the guitars are layered. From my count, there's five guitar players on this track, including one who I couldn't find any mention of anywhere on the internet. Someone named Edgar Lewis played guitar, and I believe he plays the guitar at the end, the little guitar melody, the sort of New Order style melody at the end. I couldn't find anything about who he might be. The name Edgar, of course, made me think of Gord's middle name. So not sure if there's a connection there. But yeah, I could not track this person down online. Anybody out there knows who Edgar, what his name is? I apologize. What's his name again? Edgar Lewis or Louie.Track 1:[17:10] Edgar Louie. If you know who Edgar Louie is, shoot us an email at discoveringdowneyatgmail.com. I wonder if he's an acquaintance of Chris Swala. Possibly. Although they did record in Kingston, so it would have been quite the trip for one little guitar melody. But yeah, maybe he was someone working in the studio. Maybe he's a friend of the band or who knows. But yeah, the Chris Walla production is very noticeable on this song. The way things are, you know, I think Gord even mentions in an interview, he just keeps layering things every few bars and very evident. The drums are a good example of this in the song. They come in kind of lightly, but they're still pretty intense. And then the toms come in, and you've got that really almost tribal beat for the first few bars once the whole band kicks in. And then you get just sort of a regular beat. But it's always driving forward. There's always momentum with the drums. It's always picking up momentum right through the end of the song and really strong playing all together. Such a solid song. I think the second part of that build, when I first heard it, was like, oh, this is sort of like maybe some of the tone that was on Battle of the Newts, where it was kind of subdued and subdued.Track 1:[18:31] Just there. And then there's this massive sound, which really works. I do love the song a lot. And I believe you that there's five guitars in it. Um, cause if you have earbuds in and turn it up, you, you feel it. Yeah. And while the chords are quite simple, when you really listen, there's actually a lot going on, even with Gord's guitar. And I feel like on this album, he has matured as a player. You can tell, you know, he's got another seven years of experience and we never did really talk about on the previous episodes his guitar playing but when he first started playing guitar in the hip it was a bizarre thing to watch his strumming patterns it was so awkward to watch him as a guitar player and i'm not even sure he was really too much in the mix back in the early days but he has grown so much as a guitar player he's playing a lot in open tunings i believe i've read that open c was his favorite so i think a lot of the songs on this album or an open C. I noticed in the videos he was playing a Tele for much of this session rather than acoustic.Track 1:[19:33] And yeah, there is a lot of subtleties to the guitar playing, even though it's basically two chords through the whole song. I was going to mention, Craig, and we've all obviously did our research and saw the YouTube, but the bathhouse sessions when they were recording. And, and I'm honestly, it's like, it's a question to this group. They, they were all isolated, but they were all playing live. And you had mentioned how much he was playing guitar. And in the, that little six part series, I loved how Gord was so committed to playing guitar, as you had mentioned. Like there was typically when you're recording an album like you want to do the the vocal and the guitar separately and he was nope i'm going to do it together because the guitar strumming was creating some of the cadence of the vocals and and i loved how or i felt like that was demonstrated there so i think that's a great point that you brought up craig that he was really focused on that playing yeah that makes this album easier to sing to we had mentioned whether i don't remember if it was on air or off air, but we had all had trouble singing along with the first two albums. And this one is much more poppy and rhythm driven. And I think you're absolutely right, Kirk, that him playing the guitar as he sings and it's in every take really kind of made that happen. I also did notice if you, it's really low in the mix, but when this track first starts, somebody says, no more takes.Track 1:[21:01] Like, we have to do it this time, you know? I really, I picked up on that and I enjoyed it, especially after watching that six part series. I'm gonna jump on your story theme, Craig, and Moon Over Glenora.Track 1:[21:14] The next song on the album.Track 1:[24:18] I absolutely love this song right and he talks about the ferry ride and that really goes along when you think of the east wind and being off the lake and then now talking about the ferry, uh justin what'd you think about this song oh man this song solidified my crush on julie this is, such a great track and the duet through every word and then the live performances of this song that i I was able to find on the, on the hips now for plan a record, there's one lyric that's, we don't want to do it. We want to be it talking about the music and they are absolutely the music while they're playing the song. And it's just a lot of fun. And it's like a, it's like going to a club show, which it probably was. I really did love the song. And for me, the ferry ride across Lake Champlain is just a part of life here when you're going over to New York and it just, just talking about the spotlight, finding the ice in the water. I've been on that ferry and the song is really, I think, about two people falling in love, not knowing that they're falling in love. And they're kind of bickering and arguing about it. And they get outside in the ferry and it's cold and it's terrible and you got to stay warm, so let's complain about something.Track 1:[25:29] And they talk about the wolf and they've killed the wolf by the end of the ferry ride. You know um it's the the imagery is really cool and the dead lake right isn't that the last the ocean is dead the ocean is dead yeah yeah it's a great little song i really do love it but i think the star is julie and this really she's fantastic yeah i uh story-wise i actually had almost the opposite thought to me it was maybe um a couple falling out of love and maybe this is the the cracks are starting to show. Like maybe it's not totally fractured yet. And again, I'm not saying that this is about Gord or, you know, I don't know too much about his personal life, but I do know parts of this are inspired obviously by true events, you know, the move to Glenora. Did anyone watch the interview with Gord with Kim Mitchell? If you guys even know who that is? Yeah, I did. Do you know who he is?Track 1:[26:26] Well i had to look it up i didn't know who he was immediately and i got confused because it was that little two-part interview and he had mentioned something about being and i think like saint paul minnesota and it threw me off because it said toronto but then in the second part they they confirmed they were talking in toronto um the one thing sorry and i hopefully i don't derail your thought but the one thing that i loved on that particular interview is the reverence that gordon had for that particular guy so i definitely had to look him up you know to see the songs that he was involved with and and he was uh you know as he mentioned in that he's a hero so sorry go ahead i just wanted to bring him up because he's a you know a classic canadian artist i'm wearing my my cancon shirt here and uh he was definitely a a big part of you know the music scene here in in the 80s and 90s i guess i brought it up because um this was a song that he mentioned really loving that you know kim really loved it also i found it really interesting I'd never heard this before, but Gord references a song that the two of them wrote together.Track 1:[27:29] And by the sounds of it, it's a song that was never released. So it sounds like Kim Mitchell had a song he wrote and then Gord wrote the words too. And so there may be an unreleased song out there, or maybe if a listener's heard this or has any idea how to track this down, I'd love to hear it. So that was my only thing I wanted to add. Oh, and also Dale does some really really cool guitar, little shots on, on this sort of beat two and four. And then he does these little muted scrub scrubs. I'm not even sure how to.Track 1:[27:58] How to put in words what that sound is i'm you know what i mean kind of like a pick almost like a pick slide into the the bends i mean i don't know it it's almost it's a it's a technique it's not it's a rhythmic pattern that he's doing yeah and with with some notes in there but they're sort of muted but anyways i thought that added some nice accent but i agree with with you justin that julie really steals the show on this one it's such a good song on many of the songs on this album that combination of voice, to me, that was what I had mentioned earlier about how much I enjoyed this album, is when you feel that the band is now a band and you feel that connection. But we are so used to hearing Gord as part of the hip and that amazing combination of vocals that he has, you know, with Paul and then obviously with the guitar phrasing and how the hip is the hip and you can hear that. And I think with the vocals that he has with her on many of these albums, but especially on this particular album and several of these songs, to me, that really solidified like, okay, this is a great combination of musicians that are doing fantastic things. So I so appreciated this song.Track 1:[29:19] Another, Gord has that ability to do like an upbeat rhythm and kind of like Pascal's Submarine that we talked about in the last album, where it's kind of a dark subject, but it's a very upbeat song. So I really felt that with this particular song. I couldn't help but think, as he said, the ocean is, as they were repeating, the ocean is dead at the end. I was just thinking about all the water songs that Gord has and how water must be his Roman empire. There are a couple things that come up on this album over and over. Water is one, color is another.Track 1:[29:57] Um, and day and night is a third thing. There was a fourth, I can't remember right now, but there was some definite themes through the entire album. Kirk, what did you think when you first heard as a mover? What I loved specifically about as a mover is the buildup. I think Justin may have referenced in, in some of the, those interviews where, um, how the production was every four bars, you got to get something new. So this really was uh okay you know you get the train feeling that's going on it's that moving it's the transformation it's the sorry not transformation but him him relocating to glenora as we'd mentioned now we're going into this as a mover and you know this these lyrics not just specifically for this song but for for this all album and i think in one of our messages together.Track 1:[30:53] It was hard to pin down some connections on some of these there there are some that are that are there but I agree with that that that guidance on that so as a mover to me loved it you know the sarcasm hey baby want to kiss closes it out with that that that particular theme and it's It's a driving, great rhythmic song. Another thing that was clear in my memory in some of the interviews that we got to see was he was so excited about this album in that it was genre-less, right? You can't just say it's a country album. You can't just say it's a pop album. You can't just say it's a jazz album. It has a little bit of everything. And he even talked about touring for this particular album, that they were doing a bunch of festivals and that they were jazz festival, a pop festival, a rock festival. It was different. So he was pretty proud of that fact. And I got that feeling with that as a mover. Justin, what was your take on the song? So I found a note somewhere that when Gord was writing this album, he was reading a book about Custer. And the title of the album, The Grand Bounce refers to a phrase that was coined during the Custer's involvement, whatever, in the 1860s. Whenever they deserted the cavalry, they called it the Grand Bounce. And desertion and moving and all this stuff really tie in together and –.Track 1:[32:22] This song is kind of what really sparked my thinking about that. Like, you know, this is, there's something happening here and yes, the, the train, you feel like you're on a train as soon as the song starts. And, um, it's definitely a different sound. This song is way different than anything that Gord had put out previously. And I know, again, I, it, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way a little bit. I mean, I've, I've come into all this with an open mind, but it was like, what is he trying to do here? It didn't, the production of this album, And the sound of the songs just did not match up with the first two albums. And this doesn't even match up with anything else that's on this album. And my first reaction was, is he trying too hard with this song to sound different? But it certainly has grown on me. But the theme of moving and desertion and the grand bounce itself, this song tied the album title together for me. Craig, what do you think? In the lyrics, you've got the wife, you know, not wanting to move and you've got the kids wanting to move all that, you know, wanting to go everywhere. And he says he's in the middle, he's got no opinion. So I kind of like that tension in here. I also love the line where he rhymes pressure and less sure. Oh, and he does it in this low register the second time through?Track 1:[33:44] I'm even less sure. And when he says it, he's almost talking it. It's so great. Yeah. And I know I mentioned to you guys in text that when I first heard this song, I was not a fan.Track 1:[33:58] And JD, you were a bit surprised by that. And then it just grew and grew and grew on me. Like more than any other song on the album. I love the song now. I really was not a fan at first. Just love the whole feel of it. And the little drum shuffle with the brushes. And i think what i didn't like at first was just the chorus there was something weird about just those words as a mover it's just not very smooth sounding it doesn't roll off yeah and so that that kind of bothered me at first but really it's whatever feelings i had about it have totally changed now i think it's totally yeah it's a really cool song i was with you that you know At first, I just didn't like it. But then I remembered the song is now 14 years old. And when it came out, I was listening to Mumford & Sons and I was into that sound. And this could be on one of their albums.Track 1:[34:50] And I had to force myself to transport back to that time period. And I would have loved the song back then. And also the, you know, the title as a, as a mover, it made me think like a double meaning could be like a mover is also a dancer. And the next song we have is the dance and its disappearance. And this was another song that I didn't love at first. It's still not one of my favorites on the album, but once I read the lyrics, once I got into the CD booklet and started trying to figure out what it was about, I started to appreciate it a lot more. And so I just want to read you this quick quote in the booklet. There's a quote from Crystal Pite, who I believe is a dancer. And she writes.Track 1:[35:38] It is an extreme expression of the present, a perfect metaphor for life. And it goes on. Once I kind of got what that phrase meant, it just started making sense. And when you watch the live videos of this song, every single performance of this, Gord has something to say about people in the audience with their cell phones. And he's very appreciative when there's not too many people with their cell phones. And he talks about, if you're filming this on a cell phone, you're getting 10% of the experience. Put it away.Track 1:[36:08] And there was one show in Victoria and I wrote down what he said. He says, you like that things disappear as they're happening. I don't see any phones in the air trying to capture 10%. Your brain can handle it. Let it resonate. Let it sink in. Wait till tomorrow, the day after, it'll be all right. Yeah. And I love that message. Yeah, me too.Track 1:[36:26] Fuck. Kirk? This song, when I first heard it, and we've had this discussion on some of the other albums, You know, can this be a hip song? And that opening little riff on this particular song was very hip-like. And there was another interview that I had looked up, I think Alan Cross was his name. And he had even had mentioned that on this particular, he wrote simply a hip-like song. So I think that was one thing that I appreciated is there was not any fear anymore. Like, it's okay because I am the guy who writes the stuff for the hip. So there's going to be songs that sound hip like, and I think he embraced it. But I think that I, the thing that I loved about this, and as I mentioned on the other songs and you guys as well is the, the harmonies with, with, with Julie on this, like that's okay. This is Gord Downie. This is that sound where with the hip it's, this is what I sound like when I sing with Paul or whoever's doing the backup. And I believe that he really captured that in this album, but that song as well. So that was one thing that I noted in my research on this particular song. I think this is my favorite tune on the record.Track 1:[37:41] Gord had that theme, let it disappear into the night and let it happen, use it up. That is a decades-long theme in whatever he's done, and I love the message. I also love the word a squirrel. Holy crap. What a great way to convey that you can't settle down. My mind a squirrel. Holy crap. Did anyone else look up Sudbury yellow? Speaking of colors, I mentioned earlier that color is a huge theme throughout the whole thing. Also tying into the cover art, which was actually a painting by Gord Downie himself. So I think art was much on his mind during the recording of this album. And there is different mentions of colours in so many different songs. So Sudbury Yellow references the colour of the staircase at Sudbury Hall in England. And when you look up a picture of it, it's a very striking yellow. It's actually pretty neat to look up. And also another great So he rhymes the word orange with door hinge. Yeah. Blood orange with door hinge. Yeah. That's great. And I did notice the color theme throughout this and, and art is again, a decades long theme with, with Gordon. And there are many more examples through and we'll get to that.Track 1:[38:57] Well, let's stick with you, Justin, and move forward to The Hard Canadian. When I think of this song, I always, I can close my eyes and I picture, this is going to be lost on the two Americans, I apologize, but I picture Relic from The Beachcombers as The Hard Canadian.Track 1:[39:16] Beachcombers was a CBC show based in the West Coast, and there were some hard-living fishermen type, and there was one character who was sort of a scoundrel, and his name was Relic, And he just looked like a hard Canadian. He looks like the lyrics to this song. But Justin, what do you think of the hard Canadian?Track 1:[39:34] So I had two trains of thought on this. And one was that I thought Gord might have been singing about himself and just the fuck you today kind of thing. But I also thought it was about the weather, maybe in the winter. And go out to the plains and it's brutal out there. And the hard Canadian weather doesn't care about you. You know, and yeah, so the hard Canadian in my weather theory is the hard Canadian don't give a damn about you. What's a windswept face to the elusive presence of the sun to the hard Canadian? Like, you know, it's winter all the time in some places. It's dark all the time in some places, you know, north of 60, right? And it's the line, whether he's just mean or willfully dense, like the weather is controlling itself. self. It was like Mother Nature or whatever is doing this on purpose to test you. Let's see if you come out the other side. Again, the art theme, there's the quote, and it's in quotations from life nothing to death nothing, refers to a piece of art by Frank Stella, which is, forgive my Spanish here, but de la nada vida a la nada muerte. Is that how you'd say it? But that's what it translates to, from life nothing to death nothing. And it's this massive piece of art that's It's very 1965 looking and it's just another theme in there. And I don't know how it ties in other than it's a.Track 1:[40:59] You know, foreboding dark quote. That's just my, I don't know. That's my interpretation of it. But you know, Gord obviously was going through some stuff too. And, and it, it felt like this was almost a third person narrative of a first person point of view. There was two songs on the album that I'm familiar with. The hard Canadian is the first time I heard it. I had definitely had heard it before, but had not, you know, process that it was not a hip song. I think I thought it was like a deep cut hip song or something when I heard it years ago. But the other one is, and I know we'll talk about it, The Night Is Forgetting.Track 1:[41:36] He would sing it when he would do hip songs. He would sing some of his gourd songs. So when I read that story or heard about that story, I'm like, I know I've heard that song before when they played out here in LA or whatever. So, but anyway, the hard Canadian, what he had mentioned was it was Mike, Mike Clattenberg trailer park boys. That's that, that's it's one of the series that I haven't watched. I've watched letter Kenny and I've watched, you know, several other Canadian, but I have not watched the trailer park boys. And he had mentioned that it was one of the guys I guess is one of the creators and he's like yeah I got this new thing and it's hard Canadian it's dope and and so when I'd heard that description I immediately thought of like if you guys are familiar with letter Kenny like Wayne is he's hard Canadian it's just gonna smoke a you know go out and smoke and have a puppers have a dart yeah having a dart exactly so that that was the imagery that I got from it I want to point out that this is the first song in section number two lyrically in the lyric booklet.Track 1:[42:39] And I just noticed that there's a quote here from Walter von Tilburg Clark, night is like a room. It makes the little things in your head too important. And I just realized that's the second verse of the East wind. And then I glanced forward section three has the lyric from the third verse. So the lyrics from the East wind are in here, but they're, they're heading each sections. And so in my mind, and they're quotes from other authors. Is that what it is? Yeah. It was, um, he said that song was made up of the East wind I'm talking about was made up of quote, like three quotes that he, that he loved. And I had seen that somewhere. Yes. And so the hard Canadian to me is like what JD said, like I'm picturing like a relic type. I had a baseball coach when I was a kid who he's this older guy and he always had like this about one inch left of a, of a homemade smoke. And, uh, and that, that line where he says, takes a puff of puff of nothing and pick something from his tongue. Like I just picture Mr. Heller, my baseball coach who, you know, for four years, you know, first 10 minutes of practice, you don't wear a glove. You're, you're passing the baseball just with bare hands and, and just thinking back to those, those times, there was another line that I want to bring up the silences.Track 1:[43:55] He don't listen to them. Do you think that's a reference to Pascal? Maybe that's interesting. Uh, I hadn't thought that, But because I'm thinking now my mind is a squirrel and I, I'm almost thinking this is about, you know, that, that, you know, rural Canadian, um, you know, like a relic type. And in my mind, Gord is trying to say maybe that, that there's more, more to that person than, than maybe meets the eye. I don't be so quick to judge when he says he, he blurs the image, drags his brush through the wet pigment. To me that line saying you know don't be so quick to judge the hard canadian well right at the end he mentions remembering someone too and that's absolutely you know makes sense and i know a lot of hard frenchmen that are from quebec that have been through hell and you get down to it and they're just you know beautiful soft men inside but you got to get through seven layers of onion to get there.Track 1:[44:56] And that really ties perfectly into the next song, which is Gone.Track 1:[48:41] Because it has a very similar story behind it, which I'll get into it a little bit. But Kirk, what were your thoughts on Gone? Yeah, no, I love that you actually had mentioned that you're going to get into more of the meaning of it. Because I have some thoughts and ideas, but what I really wanted to talk about on this particular one, from the musician side, that I absolutely loved about it is – I'll give the note that I wrote. And I can't remember exactly who it was that mentioned it to Gord, but he said it sounded like a moose in the distance.Track 1:[49:16] And when you listen to this tune, which is a beautiful tune, another great example of the harmonies, it's another one where you just hear the range of Gord's vocals that are just phenomenal and how he can cover the spectrum with that. But the fact that Dale Morningstar was using a theremin and had several different layers of the theremin recorded on that and you hear it. And then when you get confirmation of it, you go back and listen to it and you go, oh, wow. Right. Because there's only a few songs out there that we all know and love that have the theremin. Right. There's only what the Beach Boys and Led Zeppelin or the, you know, have have really pulled it off. So it's cool to see them jump out from a musician standpoint, musicianship standpoint.Track 1:[50:05] The other thing that I wanted to mention before, and I definitely want to hear Craig's thoughts on the meaning of it, was that Gord had mentioned in one of his interviews that this and I think The Night Is Forgetting, he called it the grandma and the grandpa. So he'd had these songs for a long time and he'd matured with them. And so I think that that anticipation of so much time between the two albums, but then having songs that came, you know, at different points along the way. And I just felt like this one had, it had marinated and it was, what was presented was what had, he had settled on, because I think that happens anyone who's done music creation. You're, you write it with a thought, a producer takes a look at it, an engineer takes a look at it, the rest of the band, and it becomes something different.Track 1:[50:55] Anyway, Craig, your thoughts on some of the meaning behind it. In the booklet, there's a quote from a Polish writer named Bruno Schultz. And it says, He had not been rooted in any woman's heart. He could not merge with any reality and was therefore condemned to float eternally on the periphery of life in half real regions on the margins of existence. And apparently this was in reference to his own father. So again, coming out of the last song, it seems to kind of tie into that idea of, at the end of The Hard Canadian, where there's someone he was remembering. So this idea of, there's actually the lyric in the song, gone and feeling half real on the edge of your life. And that ties directly to that quote. quote musically the bridge that there's a building bridge with uh julie singing backup and.Track 1:[51:48] Really really great songwriting and this was another song that really grew on me it's just such a catchy kind of fun fun song uh justin what did you think no i loved it right from the beginning it yeah it builds and it starts really slow and then it gets really slow again in the middle and it's quiet. I didn't dive too deeply into the lyrics, but there's definitely, you know, this is a life story kind of thing. And maybe at the end of it. Yeah. I just, I really love the way the song made me feel and that's only surface deep, but sometimes that's all you need in a song. And I don't know, I could listen to this one over and over. And I have. Okay. Kirk, how about the drowning machine? What are your thoughts there? I think we have another nautical disaster, could we call it, on this next song? Yeah, yeah. Through Drowning Machine. Drowning Machine. Until I actually looked it up, I didn't really know what it was talking about. But apparently, the Drowning Machine is like a common name for a weir, which is a low head dam, which if you've seen pictures of them, basically what happens is the water just cycles. And just if you get if you end up going over one of these dams you're.Track 1:[53:02] Pretty much not getting out and so gourd had apparently read a story about um about some girls being saved from the the bow river in alberta and um there was actually i i kind of looked up this this bow river and there's this this notorious um spot on the river where where i believe it said had 14 deaths in 30 years and they actually had a there one story there was there was actually a boom across so if you if you're totally out of you know if you miss all the signs and you you keep going down you can grab on to this boom at one point a storm had washed it washed it away and so a couple of men died in in i believe 2007 because the the boom had been washed out and so finally they did some construction and they and they have now made it into uh an area called the Harvey, this is called the Harvey passage. And apparently people go there to do white water rafting. And there's actually two kind of, um, passages that go through now two channels, uh, at different levels of, you know, for, for different levels of experience, um, for, for rafters. I had, I had done some research on the, um, Glenora song and there's a very treacherous river that it's like, Hey, don't go there, fly over it.Track 1:[54:20] And this reminded me of, reading about that, it reminded me of Niagara Falls, just the immense force of the water at the bottom. And you're not going to get out of there if you go over the falls.Track 1:[54:37] We had a deer camp when I was a kid on the Huntington Gorge here in Vermont. And there's a plaque with a list of 30 or so names of all the people that have died in the gorge. And our deer camp was the spot where the state police would fish the bodies out of the river every time there was one that ended up there you know we we couldn't get to the to the camp because they would use the front porch to be their their base of operations oh yeah wild and i i have to say at the end um there is some lead guitar at the end by dale that really at this point in the album when I was, especially on first listen, when I wasn't totally jiving with some of the earlier tracks, this song was the one that immediately I loved, like right off the bat. And hearing that guitar when Dale finally cuts loose and really leans into that dissonance, I felt like, okay, I'm starting to get this. And Kirk, what did you think of this? Yeah, I am fascinated, obviously, with Gord's fascination with water and the nautical side of things. But again, I think this song was just another great example of their time together and how they really... And I don't know if you guys noticed this.Track 1:[55:58] I don't think they played this on that six-part one, but I really enjoyed that it wasn't like a monarchy. You know, it wasn't Gord was given direction. It was everyone was involved. And I really loved the different parts that you would see with Chris Swala and his just subtle, nice guy production tips. So, um, I really love that interaction of, of how now that they've been done.Track 1:[56:25] A couple albums together and now it had been a little bit. And I also read something about how, yeah, they wanted to definitely get that indie vibe and they definitely wanted to have a variety of different styles of music, but how they also, you know, they're also very accomplished musicians and they've spent some time with some big bands and have played in some pretty, pretty big arena. So they could bring that to the songwriting and, and, and, and the music within this. So, and I really felt that too, moving into Yellow Days, which was the next one.Track 1:[1:00:51] I love this tune. This tune to me, and maybe I'm hearing something wrong, but there was almost kind of like a jazz bossa nova, just a real kind of amazing groove to it. And I also loved hearing about the story about Josie Dye, I think was her name. And they had had a passing at a festival way back when, when I think she was a hip fan and he was just walking around and that that that's That's actually part of the lyrics in this particular tune. But I love this song. He talks about it in some of the interviews and the descriptions about just the Canadian summers and how much the Canadians love that summer, but it goes by so quick.Track 1:[1:01:36] And so they're really just trying to make the most of every time they have good weather and they have a good moment and also keeping with Craig's color theme, which I love that you brought that up and along with the storytelling that's going on uh you know this is the here we are and and enjoying that summertime and almost reminiscent of them recording this album right for the two weeks i think in august and in 09 so justin did you dig this song yeah because we have the same summer and winter pattern that that you guys would up north today you know inside baseball we're not recording this in the summer when this is coming out we're recording it well before and it was the first warm day this year and I wore shorts and it was only 61 degrees outside. It was very windy. I shouldn't have had shorts on. But you take those moments and you wrap your life around them when you can get them. And 61 felt like 81 today. And I know the Canada gray because we have that here. It's Canada gray. Even as it's warm today, it's Canada gray outside. And just the imagery of it is wonderful. wonderful yeah and i mentioned the earlier the you know the theme of of days and nights so you know that's very obvious here uh and going into the next song and um.Track 1:[1:02:53] A couple of things, Kirk, when you were saying, you know, that beat at the start, I had the same thing. I was actually trying last night to figure out what type of beat this really was. The word that came to my mind was Calypso, but then I looked it up and it was not correct. But like this South American, like it's something I've heard. Bossa Nova was what came to my mind. So, you know, Calypso Bossa Nova, it's definitely a Caribbean feel. And, you know, the fact that it's on a Gord album, you know, again, just really talks to, you know, we had your hardcore on the last one and now we're doing Calypso Bossa Nova, you know, jazz type stuff. It's brilliant in my opinion. It reminded me of my grandmother's organ, you know, had those big tab buttons that there's a there's a pre-programmed beat and it's really bad not that the song's bad but on the organ it is yeah kirk your story about the you know everyone you know in this you know having so few.Track 1:[1:03:54] Summer days in certain parts of canada it reminds me of back in 96 my band was was in winnipeg we were playing you know this show at a you know the club that all the you know the all the decent bands played at and so we were really excited about playing this this club and uh it was on a weekend we thought like this is great and it turns out it was the the long weekend in august and everyone in town leaves for the for the lakes and there was nobody in town like not just for our show but anywhere it was just bizarre so those are the the yellow days of winnipeg well let's Let's continue on with you, Craig. Keep this wagon wheel going and talk about Night is Forgetting, which is a great title. Yeah. So, so again, the day, day and night theme and we go from yellow days and tonight is forgetting.Track 1:[1:04:46] And it was really bugging me this song because I'm like, I know that I know this song and I couldn't figure it out. And then I felt so stupid a week ago when I actually looked in my, on my phone and I had the hip version of this, which is from about, I think 2005, it was just a single. As far as I know, it was just released out of nowhere. It was, uh, I think it was left over from in between evolution. Okay. So, so I did have it. So I definitely been listening to it, you know, in the past, but it never was a song that, that interested me very much. So this one again, grew on me. I think I prefer this version now. It's, it's a little more upbeat. I love the piano. So, so shout out to Dr. P, John Press, who I don't think we mentioned last, last episode, but he is such a great player. I actually looked him up last night. I couldn't find too much about him online.Track 1:[1:05:38] And he is so tasteful. He never overplays until this is like, it was almost like someone said to me, you know, just, just let loose. And you can actually see, I'm sure you guys saw on the, on the bathhouse videos, you can see him rehearsing this on his own, kind of coming up with a part and man, he nails those, those runs. It's very impressive. It's so good. So I wrote, or I heard, and I could have definitely stole it, but I heard piano flurries. And that's exactly what it sounds like as a piano flurry when it starts driving. That's exactly what my note says. Yeah, piano flurries. And the one line that stuck out with me or to me was the dew drops on the luminous veil. And I know he mentioned this in the Alan Cross interview and the luminous veil being the suicide barriers they put up on the Bloor Street street viaduct in Toronto. I guess it was a place where there was just mass amounts of suicides, just 500 suicides and they finally put up this barrier.Track 1:[1:06:41] It's a 10 minute walk from my house, the Luminous Vale. When you guys come here, I'll show you the Luminous Vale. At night, it's very pretty, but in sort of a, I don't even know, like an eerie way because Because the sections that hold the guy wires up all look like crosses. Yeah, it's heavy, man. And so my last thing about this song, in one of the interviews, Gord, he mentions that he read a quote from, I believe, Thomas Jefferson saying something about war is forgetting another country's resources.Track 1:[1:07:19] And he said, I just replaced war with night. On the hip version of this, he actually does sing war is forgetting in the last chorus. us. So he changes that for this version. But I was actually looking up quotes from Jefferson last night. I didn't find anything that resembled such an idea. So if any listeners know what he was referencing here, I'd love to hear from you. So when Gord passed, there was an interview on some news, whatever, with Ron McLean from the CBC, or I don't know if he's the CBC anymore, more, but I knew him from Hockey Night in Canada growing up. And what I think was a quote that Gord said, but I've never been able to find it attributed to Gord, was, night takes the chances, day the reward. I love that quote. And he wrote an op-ed about Gord's passing that included that line as well. And it's just a beautiful line. And I sort of.Track 1:[1:08:19] Think of myself with my work that way. I sleep three hours a night just because that's how my body works. And I'm up till one in the morning and then I get up at 5.30. But I also love that forgetting and forgetting are really just a great sound in the song that can be interpreted in any possible way. Yes, I love that part of it. And as I mentioned earlier, this was one of the songs that I know I had heard before. And honestly, until I just recently had either read or heard that it was a hip song or that it was used on a couple of hip shows, I feel 100% positive that one of the shows that I saw, they played this. I haven't gone back and look at all the set list yet, but I feel pretty confident of that. So yeah. But just love the musicality of the song. I mean, that's the only thing I would add is just the musicality is insane. I have created this little thing that I've called Gord's Annunciation Era, where he's got a section of his career with a hip where he absolutely nails every letter in every word. And think of the lonely end of the rink, and it's a very hard – and this song is a great example of that. You know he says every letter in every word in every phrase and it's just a it's very distinct this this section of maybe eight or ten years of his career whether it's with the hip or solo.Track 1:[1:09:46] And I just love how he really makes his body be an instrument with words. And also the line, he says, weird undercurrent, we're undercurrent. And again, another reference to water in a way, but just thought that was a neat little turn of phrase there. Yeah, he's so good at that. And he changes just little tiny tweaks throughout this album in many different songs with words and lyrics and how he, it sounds the same on first two or three listens. And then you realize, oh no, this is a completely different set of words. Christmastime in Toronto, he did that too on the last album. And at the very end of this song, I love how he's singing over and over. Night is forgetting and then forgetting. And then there's one time when they totally phrase it differently. There's pauses.Track 1:[1:10:37] Do you know what I mean? I mean, the very last line, I think it is just a neat little, I love songs that have just one little quirk like that. Yes, yes, absolutely. You know what? It really goes back to, I'll be leaving you or I'll be leaving you tonight. I mean, right from the beginning, right? It's just a really cool trick that he's always done. Well, another, one of the other tricks that he's famous for is invoking his children and lullabying them. The next song, Moon Show Your Lashes, to me is just the process of writing some of these lullabies and things about his children. That's what it means to me. Mr. St. Louis, how about you? I took it as his battle with insomnia, you know, which is also a common theme throughout his career.Track 1:[1:11:25] And yes, I definitely picked up on the thing. Like, you know, there's a, there's a book that my wife and I love called go the fuck to sleep, you know, talking about your kids, like just give us a break, man. And tonight, in fact, before we recorded, my daughter was taking a bath and she's trying to speak Spanish and she's yelling it and asking my wife questions in the other room in Spanish. And I walked in and Linda looks up at me and whispers, she needs to shut the fuck up. You know, just those moments of give it a rest, kid. But I think that it could be interpreted either way that like, yeah, he's talking about his kids. Like just, okay, relax. We get it. moon slow your lashes.Track 1:[1:12:09] But, you know, I think, The way that I took it was more of Gord by the lamp with a notepad trying to come up with the next song and wondering, you know, there's the line, what must he think? And no more, I think he thinks. And kind of judging himself or his work before it's even completed and just not being able to reconcile that. For what it's worth, I love the lyrics in this song. I friggin' hate the tune. I hate this song.Track 1:[1:12:39] It's so annoying. And I don't know what it is about it. And it's such an earworm. And it's the one I can't get out of my head. I can't stand the song. Get out of here. Wow. Actually just blown away by what Justin said, because I absolutely love the tune. Me too. And I think it's that 2010s, as you mentioned, you know, like there's such a massive influence from all of them individually as artists, but obviously Death Cab and that influence, but I think what they were listening to at the time. And so I mentioned that I really liked this album. So, you know, there's, there's no real duds on it for me. So, I mean, there's little things of course that I could critique, but to me, this particular album and, and, and even this song like this, this one's really up there. For me you know i'm still trying to decide what's going to be my favorite song from this and it's the first time that i didn't know instantaneously i particularly i enjoyed you know again just how it made me feel it gave me that that just that cool this is where we're at in this this time in music like it was it was it had it has some heavy lyrics but it it's i mean not crazy heavy but it was an upbeat song, I think, overall. So I appreciated it. So there was a story, Gord, in one of the interviews online I found.Track 1:[1:14:01] Talks about a radio essay he was listening to by, by someone named Neil McDonald. And he was talking about a woman who would go up to a place called high level Alberta. So when they, when he says high level in the, in the book, in, in, in the song, I had noticed in the booklet, it was capitalized. So it actually is a place up in Northern Alberta. And this woman would go up to um, Northern Alberta and, um, make, make some money. You can probably imagine how she's making her money and, and she would do this in order to support her kids. And, uh, and then when she got back to her kids, I just want to want to hold and smell. And another crazy example of how Gord writes these like incredibly upbeat, like you hear it and you fall in love with it because it makes you feel good, but it's dark AF.Track 1:[1:14:52] It's just got some real, real, real just black undertones in some of it, but the music just keeps you going. And that line that says, when, not if, after, when I get out of high level, when, not if. Yeah. And forget the, in the bridge, I think it is the forget the hawks, jaguars, the knife lickers and creeps. And yeah, it just really changed my perspective of the song and and yeah that that juxtaposition between the the sort of cute music and the dark lyrics some some more themes of um you know burgundy the color burgundy dance dance so again dance is the the one earlier that i was forgetting when i was talking about themes so themes on this album water you've got day and night you've got color and you've got dance and this song has a couple of those things in it and and to me it was like you know the things we do for our family oh like i like i said i i really love the story in the song and the lyrics and trying to figure out what i think i thought but just the tune i can't do it i don't know why man i'm sorry i'm i'm i'm not totally crazy about this song uh it's not my lead i'm actually we passed by my my least favorite without me saying but but to me um The Hard Canadian is the weak link on this album. To me, it's just a... Oh, wow. Yeah, it's just... I think it's the chord progression has just so been done before. Yeah, I'm not in love with it either. And that's the one song that I was familiar with on this album. This song, I wasn't too much of a fan of at first, but I do really like it now. It has grown on me, especially I think hearing that story. Well, are we ready to jump into Retrace?Track 1:[1:20:11] This song, my note, it just says vocally amazing. That's the note I have.Track 1:[1:20:18] I'm sure there's an amazing meaning behind the whole song. I really don't care. I just want to hear Gord sing the main line. I retrace my steps. And it just puts me in this amazing, wonderful, just warm place like we talked about in the beginning. And even Gord in some of his interviews talked about how the process and these songs were company to him. And that's what I felt with this retrace, this tune. And again, another great pairing from harmonies and also great build. And also, as we'd mentioned before, where that whole theory of every four bars coming up with something new, the retrace song, it definitely had additions and installations to create this. I just, yeah, maybe I'm dating myself, but I don't know if you guys are familiar with the band, the Smithereens.Track 1:[1:21:17] Kind of had a Smithereens vibe to it. Had a Lou Reed vibe to it. I know that there'

Neil McDonald played top-flight football for Everton and Newcastle, but it was concluding his playing days at Deepdale which made a huge impact on him. The former defender speaks to Broadcaster Niall McCaughan and ex-PNE striker Neil Mellor about his story in the game and his time at North End working with David Moyes. This is PNE Pod - the official podcast of the one and only Preston North End FC. With a new episode of PNE Pod every fortnight, hit subscribe or follow now wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss one. Follow our socials here: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OfficialPNEFC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pnefcofficial X: https://twitter.com/pnefc TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@pnefc YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pnefcofficial Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Subconscious Realms Episode 269 - Mysterious Earth Conference 2024 - St Anne's - Neil McDonald & Sir Thomas Sheridan....

Host: Geoffrey D. CalhounGuest: Brock Heasley, Writer and Director of "The Shift"Episode Overview: In this compelling episode of "The Successful Screenwriter" podcast, Geoffrey D. Calhoun sits down with Brock Heasley, the creative mind behind the buzz-worthy film, "The Shift." A project that started from a small blog post during the MySpace era, "The Shift" has grown into a full-fledged cinematic experience, gaining traction across major social media platforms and starring renowned actors like Neil McDonald, Sean Astin, and John Billingsley.Key Topics Discussed:The Genesis of "The Shift": Brock shares the journey from a blog post to a feature film, highlighting the role of social media in its early promotion.Transition into Filmmaking: Brock recounts his pivot from a graphic design career to filmmaking, influenced by a lifelong passion for movies and a significant job loss.Collaboration with Angel Studios: The unique crowdfunding and guild-member decision-making process at Angel Studios that brought "The Shift" to a wider audience.Design and Casting Insights: Insights into the design process for the movie's iconic "Lancers" and the strategic casting choices that elevated the film.The Renaissance of Faith-Based Films: A discussion on the evolving landscape of faith-based cinema, emphasizing higher production values and a broader appeal.The Core Message of "The Shift": An exploration of the film's thematic focus on suffering, hope, and unexpected outcomes, grounded in personal experiences of loss and resilience.Watch "The Shift" on various platforms including Angel Studios' app, YouTube, Google Play, Amazon, Apple, and Voodoo to experience the multifaceted journey of its protagonist and the innovative storytelling that Brock Heasley brings to the screen.Subscribe for more insightful discussions with leading figures in the screenwriting and filmmaking industry.Conclusion:"The Shift" stands as a testament to the power of storytelling, resilience in the face of adversity, and the collaborative spirit of indie filmmaking. Brock Heasley's journey from a graphic designer to a celebrated filmmaker offers inspiration to aspiring screenwriters and directors, proving that with passion, creativity, and a bit of faith, anything is possible in the cinematic world.

Gold Hydrogen Ltd (ASX:GHY) managing director Neil McDonald joins Jonathan Jackson in the Proactive studio to discuss the recent “amazing” findings of natural hydrogen and helium at the Ramsay Project in South Australia. With hydrogen purity reaching 86% and helium at 17.5% air-corrected purity, these results are significant not just for Gold Hydrogen but on a global scale. McDonald emphasises the early success in recovering these gases from multiple formations at Ramsay 1 and 2 wells, highlighting the project's potential. This early testing phase is crucial, as it lays the groundwork for scaling up to commercial levels. Further testing scheduled for April is anticipated to provide more insights, supporting the company's progression toward establishing a pilot plant. This initiative aligns with Gold Hydrogen's strategy to leverage its significant resources of both gases within the Ramsay Project area. The market reacted positively to these developments, with Gold Hydrogen's shares surging almost 16%. This response reflects growing investor recognition of the company's potential in the emerging hydrogen and helium markets, underpinned by the promising early results and strategic project execution. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #ASX #Hydrogen #Helium #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews

Our Market Analyst, Grady Wulff, sits down over the next 6 minutes with 6 executives who are exploring all parts of the world from uranium to a gold and silver deposit discovered in Chile recently.Watch Grady catch up with the following executives:(0:42) Neil McDonald, Managing Director - Gold Hydrogen(1:45) Rowan Johnston, Executive Chair - Kin Mining(2:28) Chris Byrne, Managing Director - Legacy Minerals(3:37) Siobhan Lancaster, Managing Director & CEO - 92 Energy(4:16) Andrew Munckton, Managing Director - Talisman Mining(4:59) Ray Shorrocks, Executive Director - Mitre Mining CorporationThese exclusive interviews are provided to experienced clients trading with Bell Direct.

Subconscious Realms Episode - 254 Bérenger Saunière Priest Wizard of Rennes-le-Château - Thomas Sheridan. Ladies & Gentlemen, on this Episode of Subconscious Realms we welcome back one of our Extraordinary returning Guest's, Sir Thomas Sheridan to discuss his latest book he wrote with Neil McDonald; Bérenger Saunière Priest Wizard of Rennes-le-Château. In this Controversial new book by Thomas Sheridan & Neil McDonald Demolishes the Rennes-le-Château popular Myth & Mysteries. Everything you thought you knew was a distraction. Neil McDonald has had a deep personal connection to Rennes-le-Château and has been running tours to the area, studying the story and landscape deeply, as well as writing about it for many years. Thomas Sheridan, using his extensive knowledge of the occult and that of secret societies, as well as his understanding of the mysteries of the landscape, dove-tails his own insights into the story. The two men's combined research and discoveries have unearthed a spectacular new understanding of Rennes-le-Château and the story of the Abbé François Bérenger Saunière. Absolute Mind-Blowing Episode

Neil McDonald, Chief Executive of the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises, ISME

Gold Hydrogen Ltd chair Alexander Downer joins Jonathan Jackson in the Proactive Australia studio to talk about the final hydrogen results from the Ramsay 2 well at the company's flagship Ramsay Natural Hydrogen Project. Downer discusses the significant milestones the company has achieved in 2023, culminating in the confirmation and validation of historical results and the identification of multiple target zones for both hydrogen and helium. The results saw managing director Neil McDonald refer to them as “world-class” and “groundbreaking”. Downer also speaks to favourable conditions for the hydrogen and helium markets and outlines Gold Hydrogen's plans for 2024. #ProactiveInvestors #GoldHydrogen #ASX #energy #hydrogen #helium #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews

Coined in 2019 by Neil McDonald, Gartner defines single-vendor secure access service edge (SASE) offerings as those that deliver multiple converged-network and security-as-a-service capabilities, such as software-defined WAN, secure web gateway, cloud access security broker, network firewalling and zero trust network access.In today's hybrid multi-cloud environment where touchpoints comprise of fixed and mobile, virtual and physical, what is the value proposition of SASE?I had the good fortune of meeting Kunal Jha, Regional Director for Asia, Netskope and I took the opportunity to get clarity on the value proposition of SASE in a hybrid, multi-cloud environment.What follows is the dialogue I had with Kunal during his visit to Hong Kong.1.       What problems does SASE solve?2.       When do I need a Secure Access Service Edge (SASE)?3.       Does SASE make VPNs obsolete?4.       How has SASE evolved in the hybrid cloud and hybrid work environment?5.       Are all SASE solutions created equal? What to look for?6.       How does SASE enable business agility?7.       Can you avoid vendor lock-in with SASE?8.       Some say that delivered as a cloud is the single point of failure of SASE. Is this true?9.       What does a successful SASE deployment look like?10.   Where does SASE fit in an organisation that has decided to deploy zero trust?11.   In this hybrid cloud environment, would a SD-WAN or CASB approach make better sense to securing the enterprise? 12.   What is a cost-effective approach to integrating SASE into an existing network environment?13.   What advice would you offer CIOs/CISOs as regards SASE?

Morgans Analyst Max Vickerson interviews GHY's Managing Director Neil McDonald about Natural Hydrogen as a commodity and what exactly it is. Neil also discusses Gold Hydrogen's exploration licences over known occurrences of natural hydrogen in South Australia. "Gold Hydrogen is exploring the future of clean energy in Australia, looking for more affordable and sustainable ways to produce hydrogen power." - https://www.goldhydrogen.com.au/ Check out more from Morgans: Visit the Morgans website: www.morgans.com.au Check out our blog: www.morgans.com.au/Blog On Facebook: www.facebook.com/MorgansAU On Instagram: www.instagram.com/Morgans.Australia On Twitter: twitter.com/MorgansAU

On the 15th of March 2023, Morgans Financial was joined by Neil McDonald, Managing Director & Luke Titus, Technical Director of Gold Hydrogen who presented at the monthly Morgans Business Breakfast about their upcoming Natural Hydrogen project in South Australia. Check out more from Morgans: Visit the Morgans website: www.morgans.com.au Check out our blog: www.morgans.com.au/Blog On Facebook: www.facebook.com/MorgansAU On Instagram: www.instagram.com/Morgans.Australia On Twitter: twitter.com/MorgansAU

Subconscious Realms Episode 175 - Neil McDonald's Megalithic Tours. Ladies & Gentlemen, on this Episode of Subconscious Realms, we welcome Author - Sir Neil McDonald to discuss the Incredible Megalithic Tours that Neil has Organised & Run for past 20 years, a truly Phenomenal achievement indeed. Throughout Britain and Europe we have a wonderful heritage left to us by our ancestors from times when humankind had a real connection to the land. A rich history remains for us to explore from the varied past of these great islands. At Megalithic Tours we visit all sorts of ancient, mystical and historical sites from many time periods. The British and European landscape is awash with ancient sites, many forming whole landscapes of Stone Circles, Megaliths, Henges, Chambered Tombs and natural geological features. Megalithic Tours visit sites from the Neolithic/Stone Age to more recent historical sites, including the early Christian, Knights Templar and the myths and legends of King Arthur. Our ancient and historical tour groups also venture further afield and on the ‘Cathar Country Tour' to Southern France, we explore this centre of much interest and intrigue since the publication of the ‘Da Vinci Code' based around the fascinating story of Sauniere and Rennes-le-Château. On the ‘Magical Malta Tour', we wonder over the mystery of the earliest megalithic ancient sites in Europe set on this tiny island in the middle of the Mediterranean with a distinctive personality of its own. On our Santiago de Compostela Pilgrimage tour we experience this ancient route from the comfort of the Megalithic Tours minibus. Neil delivers conversation beyond Fascination...

Neil McDonald - chief executive of the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises, ISME

Full episodes info and Show Notes - www.wearelookingsideways.com To say that Neil McDonald is interested in skate history is a little like saying Capability Brown liked to dabble in the odd bit of gardening. Neil is a journalist, author, curator and archivist who is obsessed, to an awe-inspiring degree, with the tales and intricacies of skate history. It's a fascination he explores through his essential Science Versus Life Instagram account, and which he is developing on the grandest possible scale with his forthcoming history of UK skateboarding. For me, Neil's reverent take on the power and importance of skate history makes him more akin to a legitimate cultural curator. It's why I kept using the word archivist during our conversation, and why I think his work is so important and much more than the mere ‘scanning of old skateboard magazines', to paraphrase his Insta bio. Why? Because this stuff matters. It's important, like any history is important. It's how we define ourselves as a culture, and how we safeguard the uniqueness of these activities many of us have based our entire lives around. With Science Versus Life and his forthcoming book, Neil is doing nothing less than trying to preserve and present the entire pre-digital history of British skateboarding and, by extension, youth culture in this country. As you might imagine if you've listened to the show for a while, this mission is right up my boulevard, and I enjoyed our chat very much indeed. Hope you do too. Thanks to Matt Ward for the theme tune, to my editor Fina Charleson, and to Duncan Yeldham for production support.

Dog trainer Neil McDonald and cattle wrangler Joni Hall on their loyal, emotionally intelligent charges: outback working dogs

Dog trainer Neil McDonald and cattle wrangler Joni Hall on their loyal, emotionally intelligent charges: outback working dogs

Join us as we chat with Neil McDonald about his experiences working cattle, travelling doing both working dog and stock handling schools and so much more.

Educator, mentor, counsellor, motivator, mediator, and even friend. On any given day, school teachers and leaders wear many hats to fulfil the demands of their profession. However, with these different roles comes the toll of highly charged emotional labour.QELi is one organisation that has recognised the importance of growing emotionally intelligent behaviours in school teachers and leaders. Learn how they worked with Genos on implementing EI into their leadership programs to enhance culture, professional wellbeing, and student outcomes.Neil McDonald, Chief Executive Officer at QELi joins co-hosts Marie El Daghl and Genos International CEO, Dr Ben Palmer to discuss: The state of EI in the education sector. Why QELi built EI into its leadership development program and its impact. The role of EI across educational professions; from teachers and middle leaders to principals and system leaders. How the ability to manage emotions can improve colleague, parent, and student relationships. How QELi uses Genos Leadership Assessments to assess and develop emotionally intelligent behaviours. The opportunity for EI in student growth and development. Interested in Emotional Intelligence?Learn more about Genos Emotional Intelligence, become a Genos Certified Practitioner or enquire about the Genos Corporate Program. Have a question? Leave us a voice message, and have it answered on EI at Work.Enjoyed this episode?Leave a review below and let us know. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Yes after sticking with us for the season this is our present from the show to you, an exclusive first ever podcasting appearance from the man I now call 'Homer'. Mr Derek Holmes joined Skelly for a chin wag that offered a interesting insight into what it was like to be a apart of the back to back promotions winning Paul Simpson era squad. With mentions of Glen Murray, Michael Bridges, Karl Hawley, Paul Simpson, Neil McDonald and more Derek was an open book and a fantastic first ex pro guest for the show who spoke honestly about contracts and also had a laugh with some off the cuff questions at the end. Get your questions in for Derek's up coming part two the email is thebluearmypod@gmail.com or you can get in touch via social media on insta and facebook by search The Blue Army Podcast and finally if you want to get in touch with Derek and tell him you enjoyed this interview his Twitter handle is @homerholmsey  theme as always by Mangy Mangy Moose  and music from The Reptilians show hosted, written, edited and produced by Skelly.  

INTERVIEW + TRACKLIST > inverted-audio.com/mix/lord-of-the-isles As long time admirers of @lordoftheisles, we took the opportunity to reach out to Neil McDonald to discuss his project and talk past, present and future releases. For the occasion Neil has recorded a spellbinding mix, marking IA MIX 330.

Simon Pryde and Matthew Rasibeck reflect on Neil McDonald's time at St James' Park. We also hear from Magpies Wing-Back Matt Ritchie.

The Building Committee lays the cornerstone for the Fourth Church of Christ, Scientist, edifice at Eighth Avenue and Seneca Street on October 29, 1922. Miss Jessie Estep lends money. Mr. Neil McDonald prepares the basement for use as a temporary auditorium. Mr. Charles J. Whittaker gives a presentation for the Austin Organs company and Mr. John Hamilton Howe makes an expert recommendation. Modernist architect Mr. Robert G. Reichert writes an "Architectural Historiology" on the building. Visit CindySafronoff.com to learn more about Dedication: Building the Seattle Branches of Mary Baker Eddy's Church, A Centennial Story. Facebook: @DedicationCentennialStory

Mrs. Violet Webster Dunham oversees the launch of the construction by Mr. Neil McDonald on the second unit for Fourth Church of Christ, Scientist. Mr. Charles T. Hutson takes over the chair of the Building Committee, and Mr. Paul J. Jensen as secretary. Takes place at the Empire Building, the building site at Eighth Avenue and Seneca Street, and the Wilkes Theater Building at Fifth and Pine. Visit CindySafronoff.com to learn more about Dedication: Building the Seattle Branches of Mary Baker Eddy's Church, A Centennial Story. Facebook: @DedicationCentennialStory

Mr. Neil McDonald oversees construction of the walls and roof of Third Church of Christ, Scientist, Seattle. Mrs. Jean K. Cole organizes a night watch. Mr. Ralph E. Forbes shares his insights on building. Visit CindySafronoff.com to learn more about Dedication: Building the Seattle Branches of Mary Baker Eddy's Church, A Centennial Story. Facebook: @DedicationCentennialStory Photo credit: Third Church of Christ, Scientist, Seattle, Washington. Used with permission.  

Mr. Neil McDonald begins work on excavation for the foundation for the Third Church of Christ, Scientist, edifice at Northeast 50th Street and 17th Avenue Northeast. The Boston situation heats up. Mrs. Helen Lantz suggests a change of approach for the building committee.  Visit CindySafronoff.com to learn more about Dedication: Building the Seattle Branches of Mary Baker Eddy's Church, A Centennial Story. Facebook: @DedicationCentennialStory

17 year old GM Nicolas "Nico" Checa is one of the young stars of the American chess scene. He recently tied for first place in the 2019 National High School Chess Championship. With a 2617 USCF rating, he is #7 on the US Chess top 100 Under Age 21 List, and has beaten Fabiano Caruana in the Pro Chess League. On top of that, Nico is a regular 17 yr old, with other interests and activities competing for his time. In our interview Nico talks about how he finds time for everything, and shares a lot about his approach to chess and chess improvement. Read on for links and timestamps. 0:00- Intro. We launch right into a discussion of how getting the GM title has changed Nico’s tournament selection and preparation. Mentioned in this segment: GM Ruifeng Li, GM John Michael Burke, IM Advait Patel, IM  Praveen Balakrishnan 8:00- As Nico finishes his junior year at Dobbs Ferry High School, he touches on his after-high school plans, and discusses the reasons that he and his family never felt that home schooling was the right choice for him. 15:30- What “gaps in his play” did Nico need to plug in order to reach the strength to get the GM title? Mentioned in this segment: IM Alexander Katz, GM Jacob Aagard Game: Checa-Katz 2018, 2019 Philadelphia International , 2019 US Junior Championship 23:55- How did Nico discover and get so good at chess anyway? Mentioned: Marshall Chess Club  Books: Chess Secrets: Giants of Power Play by Neil McDonald,  Learn from the Legends, Chess Champions at Their Best by GM Mikahil Marin, The books of GM Jacob Aagard,Chess: 5334 Problems, Combinations and Games Games: Checa-Smirin 2016, Fischer-Byrne 1956 40:30- Who are Nico’s favorite chess players? Mentioned: Magnus Carlsen, Fabiano Caruana, Bobby Fischer, Botvinnk, 44:30- Fast chess vs. slow chess we settle the debate once and for all!! Just kidding, but Nico weighs in and shares his ideas about the roles of classical chess and rapid chess in the chess world. Mentioned: IM Greg Shahade 47:00- We discuss Nico’s interests outside of chess, including soccer and political science.  Mentioned in this segment: GM Parham Maghsoodloo 56:00- Goodbye! Keep up with Nico via Chess.com If you would like to help support the podcast, you can do so here:

Neil McDonald is a Grandmaster, a trainer for the British Chess Federation and  a prolific and accomplished author of 37 chess books! As you will hear, he has gathered some great stories to share in his decades in the chess world. His most recent book, Coach Yourself: A Complete Guide to Improvement at Chess is now available from Amazon and many other sellers. Read on for more details, links and timestamps. 0:00- Intro. Neil kicks off with a few great stories relating to chess history. The first connects his mom with a radio interview of former World Champion Alexander Alekhine. You can hear the interview in question here on YouTube. The second story describes an opportunity Neil had to travel to the Soviet Union in 1986 and play legends of the game like former World Champion Mikhail Tal, Oleg Romanishin and many others. Others mentioned in this segment include: GMs Polugaevsky, Vaganian, Portisch, and Spassky, . Ovidiu-Doru Foisor and Sabina Foisor. 22:00- Neil shares a few more stories from his travels, including tales of chess trips to Serbia, Hungary and the Ukraine, interweaving chess and world history. 28:30- Neil tells the story of meeting legendary GM David Bronstein in the mid 1990s. Find out the chess improvement advice Neil got from one the strongest non World chess champions in history. Books mentioned  in this segment: GM Genna Sosonko’s  The Rise and Fall of David Bronstein, and Irving Chernev’s The Golden Dozen. 35:30- Neil fields some questions regarding chess improvement from some of the podcast's Patreon supporters. They touch on selecting opening repertoires, the importance of doing “post-mortems” after a game, . Player mentioned include: GMs Kasparov, Karpov, Korchnoi, Botvinnik, Baskaran Adhiban, Richard Rapport, Chris Ward, John Nunn, Boris Spassky. Books mentioned:The Giants of Chess Strategy by Neil McDonald   Perpetual Chess Episodes mentioned:  Stacia Pugh 1:07- Another listener asks about which of the older authors like Reinfeld and Horowitz are the most instructive to read these days. Authors mentioned: Irving Chernev, Fred Reinfeld, Al Horowitz, Lev Alburt, Raymond Keene. Books mentioned: From Morphy to FischerThe Chess Training Pocket Book 1:17- We plug Neil’s books! Coach Yourself has a wealth of material for players of many levels. Other books mentioned: Chess Fundamentals by Capablanca  Chess Secrets: The Giants of Chess Strategy by Neil McDonald 1:24- Goodbye! Keep up with Neil’s works by following his publisher, Everyman Chess’s webpage or twitter account. If you would like to help support and sustain the podcast, you can do so here.

Welcome to Episode Na-Na-Na-Na-NINETEEN of the Loathed Strangers Podcast. The first 'Emergency Pod' recorded, literally, minutes after Swindon Town F.C. officially confirmed that Phil Brown and Neil McDonald had been relieved of their duties. Sacked. Crickey. Ben Wills kindly joins me and super-late notice to process our thoughts and feelings regarding this SHOCK announcement. Football is great, isn't it!? All of the #LSPod guests volunteer their own time to discuss football with me and I’m very much grateful for it. Thanks, as always, for listening and I really hope you enjoy! Rich Facebook: The Loathed Strangers Twitter: @loathedstranger Instagram: @theloathedstrangers loathedstrangers@gmail.com Music by Matthew Kilford Artwork by John Daglish Producer: K.P.

A quick Luas ride from Tallaght brought Shamrock Rovers' Sporting Director Stephen McPhail face to face with Dan and Johnny to discuss the Shamrock Rovers Project. As well as enlightening us on Damien Duff's exuberance for five a side games and Rovers' new Roadstone development, Stephen also told us about how well the league is doing compared to our European counterparts. On the line from Limerick, taking a break from house hunting was new manager Neil McDonald to give us his first impressions of the league and a brief overview of his career to date....Oh, and there may have been a "Home and Away" bit just for old times sake!

This week we break the new Limerick manager news as Neil McDonald takes the helm at Markets Field. The inimitable Ollie Horgan from Finn Harps joins studio guest Ger O'Brien from Saint Pat's to discuss all the latest news and results from the LOI.

Lord Of The Isles is the alias of British born producer Neil McDonald. Since 2011 the man delivered a steady amount of quality releases on labels like Mule, Permanent Vacation, Phonica and Unthank. Having just released his debut album “In Waves” on the acclaimed Californian ESP Institute label, run by Lovefingers, his contribution to our series comes at the right time. For his mix, Lord Of The Isles comes up with an hour long live set consisting of own tracks, which gives us a coherent insight into his musical mind.

Neil is a Toronto-based music producer, engineer, and soundtrack composer. Above all, Neil is a class-A music obsessive. If we somehow lost all records of music history, he would be an ideal man to hire to help us patch together what happened and how. I caught up with Neil at an interesting time. He had just been laid off from his job at a studio he worked at which helped financed his other projects. He called it a “ jolt to the system” but that was a good thing he said. It was forcing him to open up and look around for what else the world had to offer. He's been willing and wanting to discover what else was out there since he began listening and deconstructing to his brother's 70s hard rock record collection at the age of 5. At the age of 11 he embarked on a lifelong pursuit of new music through the the help of a very unique pen pal relationship. We cover that and more on this episode of Alice: The Creativity Podcast.

Jonathan Oakes speaks to Brighton manager Chris Hughton about setting the pace in the Championship. Neil McDonald explains what it means for Blackpool to get their first away win in 17 months and Leyton Orient's Mathieu Baudry talks about getting back on track following a blip after their perfect start.

Peter Parker, Mark Linch, and Neil McDonald discuss a motif in an atypical protein kinase that mediates interactions with cell polarity substrates and is mutated in some cancers.

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Nos adentramos en el mundo de la táctica con Neil McDonald. Adaptamos parte del primer capítulo de su 'El dominio de la táctica en ajedrez' (Tutor).