Podcast appearances and mentions of Eric Topol

“We've been able to show that even by 30 days of age, we can predict with some accuracy if a child is going to have a diagnosis of autism,” says Dr. Geraldine Dawson, sharing one of the recent advancements in early diagnosis being aided by artificial intelligence.  Dr. Dawson -- a leading scholar in the field and founding director of the Duke Center for Autism and Brain Development – explains that an AI examination of a child's pattern of visits to medical specialists in its very early life is an objective diagnostic tool that can supplement the current subjective reports from parents which vary in reliability. Another objective diagnostic tool in development uses a smartphone app developed at Duke that takes video of babies watching images and applies AI-aided Computer Vision Analysis to measure for signs of autism. This enlightening Raise the Line conversation with host Lindsey Smith is loaded with the latest understandings about Autism Spectrum Disorder including advancements in early therapeutic interventions, the interplay of genetic and environmental factors, and the role of the mother's health and exposures during pregnancy. You'll learn as well about what Dawson sees as necessary societal shifts in how autism is perceived, the numerous factors contributing to a near tripling of diagnoses over the past two decades, and how early intervention and informed advocacy can make a meaningful difference in the lives of countless families.Mentioned in this episode:Duke Center for Autism and Brain Development If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

Everyone wants to live a long life, but no one wants to get old. Just over 15 years ago, cardiologist Dr Eric Topol went looking for genetic reasons why some people are able age into their 80's without the usual chronic diseases like diabetes or cardiovascular issues. Dr Topol the founder and director of the Scripps Research Institute in San Diego says genetics are not destiny and it's never too late to start taking steps to delay or even prevent disease.

In this conversation, Michael Shermer and Dr. Eric Topol discuss the realties of aging, with particular focus on the role of AI in enhancing patient care and disease prevention, the importance of lifestyle factors, and the limitations of genetic testing in predicting health outcomes. Topol also explains the dangers of ultra-processed foods, their link to inflammation, and the role of GLP-1 drugs in promoting healthier eating habits. The conversation also covers diet, particularly the differences between chicken and red meat, and the significance of sleep for overall health. Plus, consumption of microplastics, cholesterol management and statins, the critical role of social connections in maintaining mental and physical health, and the future of personalized medicine in cancer prevention. Eric Topol is a cardiologist and one of the top ten most cited researchers in medicine, known for his groundbreaking studies on AI in medicine, genomics, and digitized clinical trials. Topol is also the executive vice president and a professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research, the largest nonprofit biomedical institute in the United States. He was named one of the Top 100 most influential people in health in 2024 by Time. His new book is Super Agers.

"Burnout and trauma are not mental illnesses. They live in your physiology. They live in your biology. They live very specifically in your nervous system,” Dr. Rola Hallam says with a conviction rooted in her own successful journey to overcome the effects of chronic stress she accumulated during many years on the frontlines of humanitarian crises in Syria and other conflict zones. Out of concern for the multitudes of health professionals who, like herself, spend years carrying the weight of their traumatic experiences without seeking help, or who pursue ineffective remedies for relieving it, Dr. Rola -- as she's known – has shifted her focus to being a trauma and burnout coach. Among her offerings is Beyond Burnout, a twelve-week program that includes multimedia content as well as live coaching and teaching about developing nervous system awareness and regulation. “Most wellness initiatives fail because they're not rewiring the nervous system to come out of survival mode and back into what is called the ventral-vagal state, which is our state of social connection and of healing and repair.” She also stresses that healing is not an individual pursuit, especially for providers who work in a relational field, and teaches about the benefits of borrowing from a colleagues' state of calm and offering them the same. Don't miss this insightful and giving conversation with host Lindsey Smith that covers Dr. Rola's wrenching experiences providing care in desperate conditions, the critically important distinction between empathy and compassion, and how empowering frontline workers to heal their trauma can uplift individuals and empower entire communities. Mentioned in this episode:Dr. Rola CoachingBeyond Burnout AssessmentCanDo - Humanitarian Aid If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

Medicine stands at the threshold of a new era, where artificial intelligence and systems biology are working hand in hand to make care more personal, predictive, and precise than ever before. AI is already improving diagnostic accuracy, automating administrative tasks, and uncovering patterns in data—like retinal scans or genomics—that humans often miss. Rather than replacing doctors, AI enhances their ability to deliver more informed, precise, and efficient care. At the same time, individuals are gaining tools—from at-home diagnostics to wearable biosensors—that empower them to track and optimize their own health. This shift marks a move from reactive, disease-centered care to a proactive, data-driven model of scientific wellness. In this episode, I talk with Dr. Eric Topol, Dr. Nathan Price, Dr. Leroy Hood, Dr. Vijay Pande, and Daisy Wolf about how artificial intelligence, personalized data, and wearable technology are converging to radically transform medicine. Dr. Eric Topol is Executive Vice President of Scripps Research and founder/director of its Translational Institute, recognized as one of the top 10 most cited researchers in medicine with over 1,300 publications. A cardiologist and author of several bestselling books on the future of medicine, he leads major NIH grants in precision medicine and shares cutting-edge biomedical insights through his Ground Truths newsletter and podcast. Dr. Nathan Price is Chief Scientific Officer at Thorne HealthTech, author of The Age of Scientific Wellness, and a National Academy of Medicine Emerging Leader. He also serves on the Board on Life Sciences for the National Academies and is Affiliate Faculty in Bioengineering and Computer Science at the University of Washington. Dr. Leroy Hood is CEO and founder of Phenome Health, leading the Human Phenome Initiative to sequence and track the health of one million people over 10 years. A pioneer in systems biology and co-founder of 17 biotech companies, he is a recipient of the Lasker Prize, Kyoto Prize, and National Medal of Science. Dr. Vijay Pande is a General Partner at Andreessen Horowitz and founder of a16z Bio + Health, managing over $3 billion in life sciences and healthcare investments at the intersection of biology and AI. An Adjunct Professor at Stanford, he is known for his work in computational science, earning honors like the DeLano Prize and a Guinness World Record for Folding@Home. Daisy Wolf is an investing partner at Andreessen Horowitz, specializing in healthcare AI, consumer health, and healthcare-fintech innovation. She previously worked at Meta and in various startups, holds a JD from Yale Law, an MBA from Stanford, and a BA from Yale, and is based in New York City. This episode is brought to you by BIOptimizers. Head to bioptimizers.com/hyman and use code HYMAN10 to save 10%. Full-length episodes can be found here: Can AI Fix Our Health and Our Healthcare System? The Next Revolution In Medicine: Scientific Wellness, AI And Disease Reversal The Future of Healthcare: The Role of AI and Technology

Hello, friends! I'm celebrating my 39th birthday by giving you my top, best tips that have made me so much healthier and happier in my life – tiny tweaks that have made a HUGE difference. I share science-backed, expert advice I've tested for healthy eating, exercise, habit formation, career success, relationship success, gut health, energy, and so much more! You'll also get a peek into my daily, weekly, and monthly routines. Whether you're looking for actionable tips to improve your mornings, or make your meals simpler and more intentional, this episode has something for you! Check out the previous episodes of The Liz Moody Podcast discussed today: Want to Live to 100? Start Doing These 3 Things Today to hear Eric Topol on caffeine for longevity The 3 Simple Rules That Supercharged My Success to hear about my “Never be the one to say no to yourself” mindset EMFs, Microplastics, Red Light & More: The REAL Science Behind Today's Biggest Wellness Topics to hear Dr. Vivian Chen on red light therapy Your Trickiest Healthy Eating Qs, Answered: Weight Loss, Protein, Gut Health, Longevity, And More to hear Dr. Tim Spector on fermented foods 5 Tiny Wellness Habits I've Noticed The Healthiest, Happiest People Do Differently to hear easy tips for reading more The Novelty Rule: How To Use My Neuroscience Hack That's Changing Millions Of Lives to hear my most viral social media tip Match Theory: This Simple Mindset Hack Will Transform Your Relationships & Happiness to hear how to have authentic and deep relationships Why So Many Young People Are Getting Cancer + What You Can Do TODAY To Protect Yourself to hear from Dr. Sanjay Juneja Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Order Liz's book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  Connect with Liz on Instagram @lizmoody or online at www.lizmoody.com. Subscribe to the substack by visiting https://lizmoody.substack.com/welcome. To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to www.facebook.com/groups/thelizmoodypodcast. Use our discount codes from our  highly vetted and tested brand partners by visiting https://www.lizmoody.com/codes.  This episode is brought to you completely free thanks to the following podcast sponsors: Pique: go to PiqueLife.com/LizMoody for up to 20% off plus a special gift. Thrive Market: visit ThriveMarket.com/LizMoody and get a $60 FREE gift today & 30% OFF your first order Masa: visit MASAchips.com/Moody and use code MOODY for 25% off your first order. The Liz Moody Podcast cover art by Zack. The Liz Moody Podcast music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast.  This podcast and website represents the opinions of Liz Moody and her guests to the show. The content here should not be taken as medical advice. The content here is for information purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions. The Liz Moody Podcast Episode 354. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Seeing that you can get through the most difficult times in life, succeed, and then also return to your community and work in service to your community was a lesson that has stuck with me,” says Dr. Uche Blackstock, the Founder and CEO of Advancing Health Equity and our guest on this inspiring episode of Raise the Line with Osmosis from Elsevier. It was a lesson the Harvard-trained physician learned from her own mother – also a Harvard trained physician – who overcame poverty, sexism and racial bias to forge an inspiring path.  In her bestselling book, Legacy: A Black Physician Reckons with Racism in Medicine, Dr. Blackstock weaves her mother's remarkable story with her own and argues for systemic change in a healthcare system riddled with racially-biased practices and policies that impact patient outcomes. As she explains to host Lindsey Smith, Advancing Health Equity's work to drive measurable and sustainable change is focused on embedding equity as a core value in the leadership, strategy, and organizational practice of health systems. “We exist to challenge inequities, empower underrepresented communities, and help build a healthcare system where everyone can thrive.” Don't miss a thought-provoking conversation with a nationally respected voice that also addresses race correction factors that impact the care of Black patients, and the work required of health institutions to build trust in effected communities.Mentioned in this episode:Advancing Health EquityLegacy: A Black Physician Reckons with Racism in Medicine If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

This week, Kristen and I go full sci-fi (but, like, the real kind) with the one and only Dr. Eric Topol—cardiologist, author, and guy who's been yelling for years that the way we do medicine is… less than ideal. We talk about how AI could transform healthcare, whether doctors are finally ready to embrace empathy, and why the average hospital still runs on fax machines and vibes. Oh—and don't worry, I made sure to ask him if AI is going to come for my job. (Spoiler: probably.) It's a hopeful, sometimes uncomfortable, but deeply fascinating look at what medicine could be—if we don't screw it up. Takeaways: Why Dr. Topol believes the biggest failure in medicine isn't technology—it's the loss of empathy. How large language models (like ChatGPT) are already reshaping diagnostics and documentation. Why we should worry less about AI replacing doctors—and more about bad doctors using AI. The shocking inefficiencies still plaguing hospitals (hello, fax machines). What med schools might look like in the near future—and why humility should be part of the curriculum. — Want more Dr. Eric Topol? X: @EricTopol To Get Tickets to Wife & Death: You can visit Glaucomflecken.com/live  We want to hear YOUR stories (and medical puns)! Shoot us an email and say hi! knockknockhi@human-content.com Can't get enough of us? Shucks. You can support the show on Patreon for early episode access, exclusive bonus shows, livestream hangouts, and much more! –⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ http://www.patreon.com/glaucomflecken⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Also, be sure to check out the newsletter: https://glaucomflecken.com/glauc-to-me/ If you are interested in buying a book from one of our guests, check them all out here: https://www.amazon.com/shop/dr.glaucomflecken If you want more information on models I use: Anatomy Warehouse provides for the best, crafting custom anatomical products, medical simulation kits and presentation models that create a lasting educational impact.  For more information go to Anatomy Warehouse DOT com. Link: https://anatomywarehouse.com/?aff=14 Plus for 15% off use code: Glaucomflecken15 -- A friendly reminder from the G's and Tarsus: If you want to learn more about Demodex Blepharitis, making an appointment with your eye doctor for an eyelid exam can help you know for sure. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.EyelidCheck.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information.  Produced by⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Human Content Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Imagine a future where the aging process can be delayed and more people live active, healthy and disease-free lives well into their 90s. That reality may be sooner than you think, according to Dr. Eric Topol, author of the new book “Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.” Ali Rogin speaks with Topol about the rapidly advancing science of healthy aging. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

Imagine a future where the aging process can be delayed and more people live active, healthy and disease-free lives well into their 90s. That reality may be sooner than you think, according to Dr. Eric Topol, author of the new book “Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.” Ali Rogin speaks with Topol about the rapidly advancing science of healthy aging. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

Imagine a future where the aging process can be delayed and more people live active, healthy and disease-free lives well into their 90s. That reality may be sooner than you think, according to Dr. Eric Topol, author of the new book “Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.” Ali Rogin speaks with Topol about the rapidly advancing science of healthy aging. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

“Pandemics are a political choice. We will not be able to prevent every disease outbreak or epidemic but we can prevent an epidemic from becoming a pandemic,” says Dr. Joanne Liu, the former International President of Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders and a professor in the School of Population and Global Health at McGill University. You are in for a lot of that sort of frank and clear-eyed analysis in this episode of Raise the Line from Dr. Liu, whose perspective is rooted in decades of experience providing medical care on the frontlines of major humanitarian and health crises across the globe, as well as wrangling with world leaders to produce more effective responses to those crises and to stop attacks on medical facilities and aid workers in conflict zones. Firsthand accounts from the bedside to the halls of power are captured in her new book Ebola, Bombs and Migrants, which focuses on the most significant issues during her tenure leading MSF from 2013-2019.  The book also contains insights about the geopolitical realities that hamper this work, including lax enforcement of international humanitarian law, and a focus on national security that erodes global solidarity. Join host Lindsey Smith as she interviews this leading voice on our preparedness to meet the needs of those impacted by violent conflict, forced migration, natural disasters, disease outbreaks and other grave challenges. If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

On this week's Tech Nation, Moira speaks with Dr. Eric Topol, professor and executive vice president at Scripps Research, about his book, “Super Agers … An Evidence‑Based Approach to Longevity.” Then, Dr. Raza Bokhari, the CEO of Medicus Pharma, discusses an innovative treatment that could replace Mohs surgery for nonmelanoma skin cancer.

In part two of our interview with Eric Topol, author of the New York Times bestseller Super Agers, we cover how to get a good night's sleep, why one day everyone may take GLP-1s, and how AI is poised to transform medicine. 1️⃣ Missed Part 1? Listen now on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

“As parents dedicated to getting a treatment for our children in their lifetimes, we have turned the rare disease drug development landscape upside down and created a new model,” says Nicole Johnson, co-founder and executive director of the FOXG1 Research Foundation.  That's not an exaggeration, as the foundation is on track to make history as it begins patient clinical trials on a gene replacement therapy next year. The former TV news producer and media executive unexpectedly entered the world of patient advocacy and drug research after her daughter, Josie, was born with FOXG1, a genetic disorder which causes severe seizures and impedes normal movement, speech, and sleep among other problems. Johnson is also making an impact in another important dimension of the rare disease space in her efforts to educate parents, teachers, and students about disability inclusion through her Joyfully Josie book series and “Live Joyfully” education programs. Tune-in to this fascinating Year of the Zebra conversation with host Lindsey Smith to find out how the foundation is aiming to bring a drug to market in less than half the time and at a fraction of the cost than the industry standard, and how this model might impact research on other rare disorders. Mentioned in this episode:FOXG1 Research FoundationJoyfully Josie Book If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

On this episode of The Doctor Hyman Show, I sit down with Dr. Eric Topol—renowned cardiologist, geneticist, and founder of the Scripps Research Translational Institute—to talk about the future of disease prevention. From AI diagnostics to genetic risk scoring, we explore the tools that could help stop Alzheimer's and other chronic diseases before they start. This is one of the most hopeful conversations I've had about what's ahead. Watch it on YouTube here. We discuss: • How new diagnostics and AI tools could help detect Alzheimer's early • The key lab tests and biomarkers to know—and how to talk to your doctor about them • Why tracking your health data over time matters more than you think • What you can do to strengthen your immune system and lower disease risk We have more power than ever to take control of our health. This episode shows you where to start. View Show Notes From This Episode Get Free Weekly Health Tips from Dr. Hyman https://drhyman.com/pages/picks?utm_campaign=shownotes&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=podcast Sign Up for Dr. Hyman's Weekly Longevity Journal https://drhyman.com/pages/longevity?utm_campaign=shownotes&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=podcast Join the 10-Day Detox to Reset Your Health https://drhyman.com/pages/10-day-detox Join the Hyman Hive for Expert Support and Real Resultshttps://drhyman.com/pages/hyman-hive This episode is brought to you by Seed, Pique, fatty15 and AirDoctor. Visit seed.com/hyman and use code 25HYMAN for 25% off your first month of Seed's DS-01® Daily Synbiotic. Receive 20% off FOR LIFE + a free Starter Kit with a rechargeable frother and glass beaker at Piquelife com/Hyman. Head to fatty15.com/hyman and use code HYMAN for 15% off your 90-day subscription Starter Kit.Get cleaner air. Right now, you can get up to $300 off at airdoctorpro.com/drhyman.

Today's episode is the cheat sheet you've been waiting for.If you're confused by all the conflicting health advice – from keto to vegan, biohacking, to hormone tracking – this is your reset. Mel did the heavy lifting for you, analyzing 53 conversations with the world's leading health experts to pinpoint exactly what matters most for your health, energy, and longevity. The result? 3 simple, science-backed habits that every single expert agrees are the most important for your health and happiness.You'll hear directly from:-Dr. Eric Topol, one of the most renowned health researchers in the world, on how exercise can reverse your biological age. -Dr. Vonda Wright, top orthopedic surgeon and women's health expert, with a simple, no-cost workout plan you can do at any age with no gym required. -Dr. Shefali, top clinical psychologist, on how your devices are stealing your time, energy, and peace of mind, and what to do about it -Dr. Laurie Santos, the top professor at Yale and a happiness expert, on the surprising secret to happiness — and better health. Forget complicated routines or expensive supplements. If you've ever thought, "Could someone please just tell me what works?", consider this your answer. For more resources, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, you'll love the full episodes with each of the doctors interviewed today:Dr. Eric Topol: Advice From the #1 Longevity Doctor: Add 10 Years to Your Life With 3 Simple HabitsDr. Vonda Wright: Look, Feel, & Stay Young Forever: #1 Orthopedic Surgeon's Proven ProtocolDr. Shefali: You Learn This Too Late: This One Idea Might Change Your Entire LifeDr. Laurie Santos: The Science of Well-Being: Powerful Happiness Hacks That 5 Million People Are UsingConnect with Mel:  Get Mel's #1 bestselling book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel's personal letter Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-freeDisclaimer

On the Mike Hosking Breakfast Full Show Podcast for Tuesday 22nd of July, a new medical school in Waikato has finally been greenlit – the Waikato University Vice Chancellor and Health Minister discuss the course. Netball New Zealand is changing the eligibility rules to allow players to play in Australia for the domestic season and still represent the Silver Ferns. Longevity expert Dr Eric Topol talks our health habits, red wine, chocolate, and if blue zones are fact or fiction. Get the Mike Hosking Breakfast Full Show Podcast every weekday morning on iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

People are becoming increasingly more interested in living longer. Health, wellness, dieting, and fitness are more and more prominent on social media, and health monitoring technology are becoming increasingly popular. Cardiologist Dr Eric Topol has been researching longevity for decades, and is considered to be one of the top five voices on the subject. He's just released his latest book, ‘Super Agers', a detailed guide to living a longer, healthier life. Topol told Mike Hosking it's not necessarily about living longer, but rather extending the years someone lives with intact health. He says living to 90 and being perfectly health throughout ought to be more important than trying to live to 110 and having many years of dementia, or profound frailty, or poor quality of life. Although there are revolutions happening in regards to anti-inflammatory and hormonal medications, Topol says it's never going to be as simple as a pill. Things like lifestyle factors, environmental pollution, microplastics, and forever chemicals also need to be controlled, he explains. Listen to the full interview for a detailed explanation of health, longevity, and the new developments in the medical sector. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For years, cardiologist Eric Topol hunted for the rarest people in America: those over 80 who had never been sick. When he finally found 1,400 of them, he made a shocking discovery. It wasn't their genes. These "super agers" were often the last ones standing in families where everyone else died decades earlier. So what separates people who live into their 80s or 90s feeling great from those who battle chronic disease? In his new book, Super Agers, Eric reveals what the science actually shows, shares practical advice you can use at any age, and takes on the bro scientists selling false promises along the way. This is part one of our interview with Eric. Part two will be available right here next week. If you can't until then, you can listen now on the Next Big Idea app: https://nextbigideaclub.com/app/

Today on Raise the Line, we bring you the unlikely and inspiring story of a woman who was afraid of blood as a child but became an accomplished nurse; who struggled with learning disabilities but became an effective educator; and who, despite lacking business experience or knowledge of graphics, built a successful company that produces visually rich educational materials for nurses and other providers. “I think the theme of my life has been I have struggled with learning, and I didn't want other people to struggle,” says Jennifer Zahourek, RN, the founder and CEO of RekMed which has developed a sequential, interactive learning system that includes illustrated planners, books, and videos used by millions of students and providers. The initial focus was to provide nurses with everything they needed to know from “the basics to the bedside” but RekMed now offers content for medics, respiratory therapists, medical assistants, and veterinarians as well. Driven by her belief in the power of visual learning and her “just freakin' do it” attitude, Jennifer overcame her fear of launching a business and quickly realized just how well nursing had prepared her for the hard work and unpredictability of entrepreneurship. “Nursing teaches you how to just be resilient, to pivot, to delegate, to work on a team and to handle high stress. I think nurses could literally be some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet,” she tells host Lindsey Smith. Tune in to this lively and valuable conversation as Jennifer shares lessons from bootstrapping a publishing company, insights on the evolving landscape of healthcare education, and advice on embracing change in nursing, especially with the expanding role of AI. Mentioned in this episode:RekMed If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

Cardiologist and author Eric Topol discusses his article, "What super agers can teach us about longevity and health span," which is an excerpt from his new book, Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity. He introduces the critical difference between lifespan (total years lived) and health span (years lived in optimal health). Eric shares the surprising results of his "Wellderly" study, which sequenced the genomes of over a thousand healthy adults over age eighty. The study found that their exceptional health was not primarily due to protective genes, but was instead strongly correlated with lifestyle factors like being thinner, exercising more, and having robust social connections. Contrasting this group with the 60 percent of U.S. adults who have at least one chronic disease, he argues that the goal shouldn't just be a long life, but a long and healthy one. The conversation clarifies two paths to this goal—slowing aging itself or delaying disease—and makes the case that focusing on preventing and delaying chronic illness is the most evidence-based approach we can all take to maximize our health span. Careers by KevinMD is your gateway to health care success. We connect you with real-time, exclusive resources like job boards, news updates, and salary insights, all tailored for health care professionals. With expertise in uniting top talent and leading employers across the nation's largest health care hiring network, we're your partner in shaping health care's future. Fulfill your health care journey at KevinMD.com/careers. VISIT SPONSOR → https://kevinmd.com/careers Discovering disability insurance? Pattern understands your concerns. Over 20,000 doctors trust us for straightforward, affordable coverage. We handle everything from quotes to paperwork. Say goodbye to insurance stress – visit Pattern today at KevinMD.com/pattern. VISIT SPONSOR → https://kevinmd.com/pattern SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST → https://www.kevinmd.com/podcast RECOMMENDED BY KEVINMD → https://www.kevinmd.com/recommended

Eric Topol (00:06):Hello, this is Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I'm delighted to welcome Owen Tripp, who is a CEO of Included Health. And Owen, I'd like to start off if you would, with the story from 2016, because really what I'm interested in is patients and how to get the right doctor. So can you tell us about when you lost your hearing in your right ear back, what, nine years ago or so?Owen Tripp (00:38):Yeah, it's amazing to say nine years, Eric, but obviously as your listeners will soon understand a pretty vivid memory in my past. So I had been working as I do and noticed a loss of hearing in my right ear. I had never experienced any hearing loss before, and I went twice actually to a sort of national primary care chain that now owned by Amazon actually. And they described it as eustachian tube dysfunction, which is a pretty benign common thing that basically meant that my tubes were blocked and that I needed to have some drainage. They recommended Sudafed to no effect. And it was only a couple weeks later where I was walking some of the senior medical team at my company down to the San Francisco Giants game. And I was describing this experience of hearing loss and I said I was also losing a little bit of sensation in the right side of my face. And they said, that is not eustachian tube dysfunction. And well, I can let the story unfold from there. But basically my colleagues helped me quickly put together a plan to get this properly diagnosed and treated. The underlying condition is called vestibular schwannoma, even more commonly known as an acoustic neuroma. So a pretty rare benign brain tumor that exists on the vestibular nerve, and it would've cost my life had it not been treated.Eric Topol (02:28):So from what I gather, you saw an ENT physician, but that ENT physician was not really well versed in this condition, which is I guess a bit surprising. And then eventually you got to the right ENT physician in San Francisco. Is that right?Owen Tripp (02:49):Well, the first doctor was probably an internal medicine doctor, and I think it's fair to say that he had probably not seen many, if any cases. By the time I reached an ENT, they were interested in working me up for what's known as sudden sensorineural hearing loss (SSHL), which is basically a fancy term for you lose hearing for a variety of possible pathologies and reasons, but you go through a process of differential diagnosis to understand what's actually going on. By the time that I reached that ENT, the audio tests had showed that I had significant hearing loss in my right ear. And what an MRI would confirm was this mass that I just described to you, which was quite large. It was already about a centimeter large and growing into the inner ear canal.Eric Topol (03:49):Yeah, so I read that your Stanford brain scan suggested it was about size of a plum and that you then got the call that you had this mass in your brainstem tumor. So obviously that's a delicate operation to undergo. So the first thing was getting a diagnosis and then the next thing was getting the right surgeon to work on your brain to resect this. So how did you figure out who was the right person? Because there's only a few thousand of these operations done every year, as I understand.Owen Tripp (04:27):That's exactly right. Yeah, very few. And without putting your listeners to sleep too early in our discussion, what I'll say is that there are a lot of ways that you can actually do this. There are very few cases, any approach really requires either shrinking or removing that tumor entirely. My size of tumor meant it was really only going to be a surgical approach, and there I had to decide amongst multiple potential approaches. And this is what's interesting, Eric, you started saying you wanted to talk about the patient experience. You have to understand that I'm somebody, while not a doctor, I lead a very large healthcare company. We provide millions of visits and services per year on very complex medical diagnoses down to more standard day-to-day fare. And so, being in the world of medical complexity was not daunting on the basics, but then I'm the patient and now I have to make a surgical treatment decision amongst many possible choices, and I was able to get multiple opinions.Owen Tripp (05:42):I got an opinion from the House clinic, which is closer to you in LA. This is really the place where they invented the surgical approach to treating these things. I also got an approach shared with me from the Mayo Clinic and one from UCSF and one from Stanford, and ultimately, I picked the Stanford team. And these are fascinating and delicate structures as you know that you're dealing with in the brain, but the surgery is a long surgery performed by multiple surgeons. It's such an exhausting surgery that as you're sort of peeling away that tumor that you need relief. And so, after a 13 hour surgery, multiple nights in the hospital and some significant training to learn how to walk and move and not lose my balance, I am as you see me today, but it was possible under one of the surgical approaches that I would've lost the use of the right side of my face, which obviously was not an option given what I given what I do.Eric Topol (06:51):Yeah, well, I know there had to be a tough rehab and so glad that you recovered well, and I guess you still don't have hearing in that one ear, right?Owen Tripp:That's right.Eric Topol:But otherwise, you're walking well, and you've completely recovered from what could have been a very disastrous type of, not just the tumor itself, but also the way it would be operated on. 13 hours is a long time to be in the operating room as a patient.Owen Tripp (07:22):You've got a whole team in there. You've got people testing nerve function, you've got people obviously managing the anesthesiology, which is sufficiently complex given what's involved. You've got a specialized ENT called a neurotologist. You've got the neurosurgeon who creates access. So it's quite a team that does these things.Eric Topol (07:40):Yeah, wow. Now, the reason I wanted to delve into this from your past is because I get a call or email or whatever contact every week at least one, is can you help me find the right doctor for such and such? And this has been going on throughout my career. I mean, when I was back in 20 years ago at Cleveland Clinic, the people on the board, I said, well, I wrote about it in one of my books. Why did you become a trustee on the board? And he said, so I could get access to the right doctor. And so, this is amazing. We live in an information era supposedly where people can get information about this being the most precious part, which is they want to get the right diagnosis, they want to get the right treatment or prevention, whatever, and they can't get it. And I'm finding this just extraordinary given that we can do deep research through several different AI models and get reports generated on whatever you want, but you can't get the right doctor. So now let's go over to what you're working on. This company Included Health. When did you start that?Owen Tripp (08:59):Well, I started the company that was known as Grand Rounds in 2011. And Grand Rounds still to this day, we've rebranded as Included Health had a very simple but powerful idea, one you just obliquely referred to, which is if we get people to higher quality medicine by helping them find the right level and quality of care, that two good things would happen. One, the sort of obvious one, patients would get better, they'd move on with their lives, they'd return to health. But two and critically that we would actually help the system overall with the cost burden of unnecessary, inappropriate and low quality care because the coda to the example you gave of people calling you looking for a physician referral, and you and I both know this, my guess is you've probably had to clean plenty of it up in your career is if you go to the wrong doctor, you don't get out of the problem. The problem just persists. And that patient is likely to bounce around like a ping pong ball until they find what they actually need. And that costs the payers of healthcare in this country a lot of money. So I started the company in 2011 to try to solve that problem.Eric Topol (10:14):Yeah, one example, a patient of mine who I've looked after for some 35 years contacted me and said, a very close friend of mine lives in the Palm Springs region and he has this horrible skin condition and he's tortured and he's been to six centers, UCSF, Stanford, Oregon Health Science, Eisenhower, UCLA, and he had a full workup and he can't sleep because he's itching all the time. His whole skin is exfoliating and cellulitis and he had biopsies everywhere. He's put on all kinds of drugs, monoclonal antibodies. And I said to this patient of mine I said, I don't know, this is way out of my area. I checked at Scripps and turns out there was this kind of the Columbo of dermatology, he can solve any mystery. And the patient went to see him, and he was diagnosed within about a minute that he had scabies, and he was treated and completely recovered after having thousands and thousands of dollars of all these workups at these leading medical centers that you would expect could make a diagnosis of scabies.Owen Tripp (11:38):That's a pretty common diagnosis.Eric Topol (11:40):Yeah. I mean you might expect it more in somebody who was homeless perhaps, but that doesn't mean it can't happen in anyone. And within the first few minutes he did a scrape and showed the patient under the microscope and made a definitive diagnosis and the patient to this day is still trying to pay all his bills for all these biopsies and drugs and whatnot, and very upset that he went through all this for over a year and he thought he wanted to die, it was so bad. Now, I had never heard of Included Health and you have now links with a third of the Fortune 100 companies. So what do you do with these companies?Owen Tripp (12:22):Yeah, it's pretty cool. These companies, so very large organizations like Walmart and JPMorgan Chase and the rest of the big pioneers of American industry and business put us in as a benefit to help their employees have the same experience that I described to provide almost Eric Topol like guidance service to help people find access to high quality care, which might be referring them into the community or to an academic medical center, but often is also us providing care delivery ourselves through on-demand primary care, urgent care, behavioral health. And now just last year we introduced a couple of our first specialty lines. And the idea, Eric, is that these companies buy this because they know their employees will love it and they do. It is often one of, if not the most highly rated benefits available. But also because in getting their employees better care faster, the employees come back to work, they feel more connected to the company, they're able to do better and safer and higher quality work. And they get more mileage out of their health benefits. And you have to remember that the costs of health benefits in this country are inflating even in this time of hyperinflation. They're inflating faster than anything else, and this is one of most companies, number one pain points for how they are going to control their overall budget. So this is a solution that both give them visibility to controlling cost and can deliver them an excellent patient experience that is not an offer that they've been able to get from the traditional managed care operators.Eric Topol (14:11):So I guess there's a kind of multidimensional approach that you're describing. For one, you can help find a doctor that's the right doctor for the right patient. And you're also actually providing medical services too, right?Owen Tripp (14:27):That's right.Eric Topol (14:30):Are these physicians who are employed by Included Health?Owen Tripp (14:34):They are, and we feel very strongly about that. We think that in our model, we want to train people, hire people in a specific way, prepare them for the kind of work that we do. And there's a lot we could spend time talking about there, but one of the key features of that is teamwork. We want people to work in a collaborative model where they understand that while they may be expert in one specific thing that is connected to a service line, they're working in a much broader team in support of the member, in support of that patient. And we talk about the patients being very first here, and you and I had a laugh on this in the past, so many hospitals will say we're patient first. So many managed care companies will say they're patient first, but it is actually hard the way that the system is designed to truly be patient first. At Included Health, we measure whether patients will come back to us, whether they tell their friends about us, whether they have high quality member satisfaction and are they living more healthy days. So everybody gets surveyed for patient reported outcomes, which is highly unusual as you know, to have both the clinical outcomes and the patient reported outcomes as well.Eric Topol (15:41):Is that all through virtual visits or are there physical visits as well?Owen Tripp (15:47):Today that is all through virtual visits. So we provide 24/7/365 access to urgent care, primary care, behavioral health, the start of the specialty clinic, which we launched last year. And then we provide support for patients who have questions about how these things are going to be billed, what other benefits they have access to. And where appropriate, we send them out to care. So obviously we can't provide all the exams virtually. We can't provide everything that a comprehensive physical would today, but as you and I know that is also changing rapidly. And so, we can do things to put sensors and other observational devices in people's homes to collect that data positively.Eric Topol (16:32):Now, how is that different than Teladoc and all these other telehealth based companies? I mean because trying to understand on the one hand you have a service that you can provide that can be extremely helpful and seems to be relatively unique. Whereas the other seems to be shared with other companies that started in this telehealth space.Owen Tripp (16:57):I think the easiest way to think about the difference here is how a traditional telemedicine company is paid and how we're paid because I think it'll give you some clue as to why we've designed it the way we've designed it. So the traditional telehealth model is you put a quarter in the jukebox, you listen to a song when the song's over, you got to get out and move on with the rest of your life. And quite literally what I mean is that you're going to see one doctor, one time, you will never see that same doctor again. You are not going to have a connected experience across your visits. I mean, you might have an underlying chart, but there's not going to be a continuity of care and follow up there as you would in an integrated setting. Now by comparison, and that's all derived from the fact that those telehealth companies are paid by the drink, they're paid by the visit.Owen Tripp (17:49):In our model, we are committing to a set of experience goals and a set of outcomes to the companies that you refer to that pay our bill. And so, the visits that our members enjoy are all connected. So if you have a primary care visit, that is connected to your behavioral health visit, which is great and is as it should be. If you have a primary care appointment where you identify the need for follow-up cardiology for example. That patient can be followed through that cardiology visit that we circle back, that we make sure that the patient is educated, that he or she has all their questions answered. That's because we know that if the patient actually isn't confident in what they heard and they don't follow through on the plan, then it's all for naught. It's not going to work. And it's a simple sort of observation, but it's how we get paid and why we think it's a really important way to think about medicine.Eric Topol (18:44):So these companies, and they're pretty big companies like Google and AT&T and as you said, JPMorgan and the list goes on and on. Any one of the employees can get this. Is that how it works?Owen Tripp (18:56):That's right, that's right. And even better, most of what I've described to you today is at a low or zero cost to them. So this is a very affordable, easy way to access care. Thinking about one of our very large airline clients the other day, we're often dealing with their flight crews and ramp agents at very strange hours in very strange places away from home, so that they don't have to wait to get access to care. And you can understand that at a basic humanitarian level why that's great, but you can also understand it from a safety perspective that if there is something that is impeding that person's ability to be functioning at work, that becomes an issue for the corporation itself.Eric Topol (19:39):Yeah, so it's interesting you call it included because most of us in the country are excluded. That is, they don't have any way to turn through to get help for a really good referral. Everything's out of network if they are covered and they're not one of the fortunate to be in these companies that you're providing the service for. So do you have any peers or are there any others that are going to come into this space to help a lot of these people that are in a tough situation where they don't really have anyone to turn to?Owen Tripp (20:21):Well, I hope so. Because like you, I've dedicated my career to trying to use information and use science and use in my own right to bring along the model. At Included Health, we talk about raising the standard of care for everybody, and what we mean by that is, we actually hope that this becomes a model that others can follow. The same way the Cleveland Clinic did, the same way the Mayo Clinic did. They brought a model into the world that others soon try to replicate, and that was a good thing. So we'd like to see more attempt to do this. The reality is we have not seen that because unfortunately the old system has a lot of incentives in place to function exactly the way that it is designed. The health system is going to maximize the number of patients that correspond to the highest paying procedures and tests, et cetera. The managed care company is going to try to process the highest number of claims, work the most efficient utilization management and prior authorization, but left out in the middle of all of that is the patient. And so, we really wanted to build that model with the patient at the center, and when I started this company now over a decade ago, that was just a dream that we could do that. Now serving over 10 million members, this feels like it's possible and it feels like a model others could follow.Eric Topol (21:50):Yeah, well that was what struck me is here you're reaching 10 million people. I'd never heard of it. I was like, wow. I thought I try to keep up with things. But now the other thing I wanted to get into you with is AI. Obviously, that has a lot of promise in many different ways. As you know, there are some 12 million diagnostic serious errors a year in the US. I mean you were one, I've been part of them. Most people have been roughed up one way or another. Then there's 800,000 Americans who have disability or die from these errors a year, according to Johns Hopkins relatively recent study. So one of the ways that AI could help is accuracy. But of course, there's many other ways it can help make the lives of both patients helping to integrate their data and physicians to go through a patient's records and set points of their labs and all sorts of other things. Where do you see AI fitting into the model that you've built?Owen Tripp (22:58):Well, I'll give you two that I'm really excited about, that I don't think I hear other people talking about. And again, I'm going to start with that patient, with that member and what he or she wants and needs. One and Eric, bear with me, this is going to sound very banal, but one is just making sense of these very complicated plan documents and explanations of benefits. I'm aware of how well-trained you are and how much you've written. I believe you are the most published in your field. I believe that is a fact. And yet if I showed you a plan description document and an explanation of benefit and I asked you, Eric, could you tell me how much it's going to cost to have an MRI at this facility? I don't think you would've any way of figuring that out. And that is something that people confront every single day in this country. And a lot of people are not like you and me, in that we could probably tolerate a big cost range for that MRI. For some people that might actually be the difference between whether they eat or not, or get their kids prescription or not.Owen Tripp (24:05):And so, we want to make the questions about what your benefits cover and how you understand what's available to you in your plan. We want to make that really easy and we want to make it so that you don't have to have a PhD in insurance language to be able to ask the properly formatted question. As you know, the foundation models are terrific at that problem. So that's one.Eric Topol (24:27):And that's a good one, that's very practical and very much needed. Yeah.Owen Tripp (24:32):The second one I'm really excited about, and I think this will also be near and dear to your heart, is AI has this ability to be sort of nonjudgmental in the best possible way. And so, if we have a patient on a plan to manage hypertension or to manage weight or to manage other elements of a healthy lifestyle. And here we're not talking about deep science, we're just talking about what we've known to work for a long period of time. AI as a coach to help follow through on those goals and passively take data on how you're progressing, but have behind it the world's greatest medical team to be able to jump in when things become more acute or more complex. That's an awesome tool that I think every person needs to be carrying around, so that if my care plan or if my goal is about sleeping better, if my goal is about getting pregnant, if my goal is about reducing my blood pressure, that I can do that in a way that I can have a conversation where I don't feel as a patient that I'm screwing up or letting somebody down, and I can be honest with that AI.Owen Tripp (25:39):So I'm really excited about the potential for the AI as an adjunct coach and care team manager to continue to proceed along with that member with medical support behind that when necessary.Eric Topol (25:55):Yeah, I mean there's a couple of things I'd say about that. Firstly, the fact that you're thinking it from the patient perspective where most working in AI is thinking it from the clinician perspective, so that's really important. The next is that we get notifications, and you need to not sit every hour or something like that from a ring or from a smartwatch or whatever. That isn't particularly intelligent, although it may be needed. The point is we don't get notifications like, what was your blood pressure? Or can you send a PDF of your heart rhythm or this sort of thing. Now the problem too is that people are generating lots of data just by wearing a smartwatch or a fitness band. You've got your activity, your sleep, your heart rate, and all sorts of things that are derivatives of that. No less, you could have other sensors like a glucose monitoring and on and on. No less your electronic health record, and there's no integration of any of this.Eric Topol (27:00):So this idea that we could have a really intelligent AI virtual coach for the patient, which as you said could have connects with a physician as needed, bringing in the data or bringing in some type of issue that the doctor needs to attend to, but it doesn't seem like anything is getting done. We have the AI capabilities, but nothing's getting done. It's frustrating because I wrote about this in 2019 in the Deep Medicine book, and it's just like some of the most sophisticated companies you would think Apple, for the ring Oura and so many others. They have the data, but they don't integrate anything, and they don't really set up notifications for patients. How are we going to get out of this rut?Owen Tripp (27:51):We are producing oil tankers of data around personal experience and not actually turning that into positive energy for what patients can do. But I do want to be optimistic on this point because I actually think, and I shared this with you when we last saw each other. Your thinking was ahead of the time, but foundational for people like me to say, we need to go actually make that real. And let me explain to you what I mean by making it real. We need to bring together the insight that you have an elevated heart rate or that your step count is down, or that your sleep schedule is off. We need to bring that together with the possibility of connecting with a medical professional, which these devices do not have the ability to do that today, and nor do those companies really want to get in that business. And also make that context of what you can afford as a patient.Owen Tripp (28:51):So we have data that's suggestive of an underlying issue. We have a medical team that's prepared to actually help you on that issue. And then we have financial security to know that whatever is identified actually will be paid for. Now, that's not a hard triangle conceptually, but no one of those companies is actually interested in all the points of the triangle, and you have to be because otherwise it's not going to work for the patient. If your business is in selling devices. Really all I'm thinking about is how do I sell devices and subscriptions. If my business is exclusively in providing care, that's really all I'm thinking about. If my business is in managing risk and writing insurance policies, that's really all I'm thinking about. You have to do all those three things in concert.Eric Topol (29:34):Yeah, I mean in many ways it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is we're in this phenomenal era of information to the fifth power. But here we are, we have a lot of data from multiple sources, and it doesn't get integrated. So for example, a person has a problem and they don't know what is the root cause of it. Let's say it's poor sleep, or it could be that they're having stress, which would be manifest through their heart rate or heart rate variability or all sorts of other metrics. And there's no intelligence provided for them to interpret their data because it's all siloed and we're just not really doing that for patients. I hope that'll happen. Hopefully, Included Health could be a lead in that. Maybe you can show the way. Anyway, this has been a fun conversation, Owen. It's rare that I've talked in Ground Truths with any person running a company, but I thought yours.Eric Topol (30:36):Firstly, I didn't know anything about it and it's big. And secondly, that it's a kind of a unique model that really I'm hoping that others will get involved in and that someday we'll all be included. Maybe not with Included Health, but with better healthcare in this country, which is certainly not the norm, not the routine. And also, as you aptly pointed out at terrible costs with all sorts of waste, unnecessary tests and that sort of thing. So thanks for what you're doing and I'll be following your future efforts and hopefully we can keep making some strides.Owen Tripp (31:15):We will. And I wanted to say thanks for the conversation too and for your thinking on these topics. And look, I want to leave you just with a quick dose of optimism, and you and I both know this. The American system at its best is an extraordinary system, unrivaled in the world, in my opinion. But we do have to have more people included. All the services need to be included in one place. When we get there, we're going to really see what's possible here.Eric Topol (31:40):I do want to agree with you that if you can get to the right doctor and if you can afford it, that is ideally covered by your insurance. It is a phenomenal system, but getting there, that's the hard part. And every day people are confronted. I'm sure, thousands and thousands with serious condition either to get the diagnosis or the treatment, and they have a really rough time. So anyway, so thank you and I really appreciate your taking the time to meet with me today.****************************************************************Thanks for listening, watching, reading and subscribing to Ground Truths.An update on Super Agers:It is ranked #5 on the New York Times bestseller list (on the list for 4th time)https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/advice-how-to-and-miscellaneous/New podcastsPBS Walter Isaacson, Amanpour&Co Factually, With Adam ConoverPeter Lee, Microsoft Researchhttps://x.com/MSFTResearch/status/1943460270824714414If you found this interesting PLEASE share it!That makes the work involved in putting these together especially worthwhile.Thanks to Scripps Research, and my producer, Jessica Nguyen, and Sinjun Balabanoff for video/audio support.All content on Ground Truths—its newsletters, analyses, and podcasts, are free, open-access.Paid subscriptions are voluntary and all proceeds from them go to support Scripps Research. They do allow for posting comments and questions, which I do my best to respond to. Please don't hesitate to post comments and give me feedback. Let me know topics that you would like to see covered.Many thanks to those who have contributed—they have greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for the past two years. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

Daphne Koller, Noubar Afeyan, and Dr. Eric Topol, leaders in AI-driven medicine, discuss how AI is changing biomedical research and discovery, from accelerating drug target identification and biotech R&D to helping pursue the “holy grail” of a virtual cell.Show notes

“Very often, doctors try to suppress what they feel or don't even have the vocabulary to describe their emotions,” says Professor Alicja Galazka of the University of Silesia, an observation based on decades of work with physicians to enhance their emotional intelligence and resilience. Galazka, a psychotherapist, psychologist, lecturer and coach, believes this deficit is rooted in part in a lack of instruction in the internal and external psychological dimensions of being a medical provider. “There is not enough space created in medical school for teaching and training students about how to deal with their own stress and all of the skills connected to building relationships with patients,” she tells host Michael Carrese. Those same skills are also critical to working effectively as a member of a care team, which is an increasingly common arrangement in hospitals and clinics. Galazka employs simulations, dramatic role-playing, mindfulness, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and other methods in her work with an eye on increasing the emotional agility and sensitivity of her trainees and clients. Tune in to this thoughtful episode of Raise the Line to hear Galazka's ideas on how to reshape medical training, why she is a proponent of narrative medicine, and the merits of embedding psychologists on care teams as a resource for both patients and providers. Mentioned in this episode:University of SilesiaInternational Association of Coaching Institutes If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

When it comes to medical science, there's never been a better time to be alive than now… other than maybe a few months ago before the new Trump administration. Americans today are living longer than ever before, and that's owed in no small part to the National Institutes of Health—a government organization that has been responsible for some of the most significant biomedical advancements in the history of healthcare. Unfortunately, the Trump administration just virtually annihilated the NIH, and sentient gob of clay and anti-vax charlatan RFK Jr. is now in charge of the future of American health. To figure how how to navigate this insane dichotomy of medical potential and squandered medical possibility, Adam speaks with Dr. Eric Topol, a cardiologist and scientist, and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute. Dr. Topol's book, Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity, explores the cutting edge advancements in living longer, healthier lives—advancements which are now in jeopardy. Find Dr. Topol's book at factuallypod.com/books--SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Gil and Eric discuss Eric's book, Super Agers, and the inspiration behind it: a 98-year-old patient who exemplified healthy aging. They explore the five dimensions of healthspan optimization: lifestyle, omics, the immune system, and the role of data and AI in personalized medicine. Eric highlights how AI can analyze multi-layered data to provide personalized recommendations for preventing age-related diseases.The conversation also explores the importance of exercise, sleep, and social connection for healthy aging, as well as the risks associated with high-dose statins. Eric emphasizes the need for a shift towards preventative care, using data and AI to identify and address individual risks. He stresses the power of lifestyle changes, rather than supplements, in improving long-term health outcomes.  Guest-at-a-Glance 

Eric Topol (00:05):Hello, it's Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I've got some really exciting stuff to talk to you about today. And it's about the announcement for a new Center for pediatric CRISPR Cures. And I'm delight to introduce doctors Jennifer Doudna and Priscilla Chan. And so, first let me say this is amazing to see this thing going forward. It's an outgrowth of a New England Journal paper and monumental report on CRISPR in May. [See the below post for more context]Let me introduce first, Dr. Doudna. Jennifer is the Li Ka Shing Chancellor's Chair and a Professor in the departments of chemistry and of molecular and cell biology at the University of California Berkeley. She's also the subject of this book, one of my favorite books of all time, the Code Breaker. And as you know, the 2020 Nobel Prize laureate for her work in CRISPR-Cas9 genome editing, and she founded the Innovative Genomics Institute (IGI) back 10 years ago. So Jennifer, welcome.Jennifer Doudna (01:08):Thank you, Eric. Great to be here.Eric Topol (01:10):And now Dr. Priscilla Chan, who is the co-founder of the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative (CZI) that also was started back in 2015. So here we are, a decade later, these two leaders. She is a pediatrician having trained at UCSF and is committed to the initiative which has as its mission statement, “to make it possible to cure, prevent, and manage all diseases in this century.” So today we're going to talk about a step closer to that. Welcome, Priscilla.Priscilla Chan (01:44):Thank you. Thanks for having me.Eric Topol (01:46):Alright, so I thought we'd start off by, how did you two get together? Have you known each other for over this past decade since you both got all your things going?Jennifer Doudna (01:56):Yes, we have. We've known each other for a while. And of course, I've admired the progress at the CZI on fundamental science. I was an advisor very early on and I think actually that's how we got to know each other. Right, Priscilla?Priscilla Chan (02:11):Yeah, that's right. We got to know each other then. And we've been crisscrossing paths. And I personally remember the day you won the Nobel Prize. It was in the heart of the pandemic and a lot of celebrations were happening over Zoom. And I grabbed my then 5-year-old and got onto the UCSF celebration and I was like, look, this is happening. And it was really cool for me and for my daughter.Eric Topol (02:46):Well, it's pretty remarkable convergence leading up to today's announcement, but I know Priscilla, that you've been active in this rare disease space, you've had at CZI a Rare As One Project. Maybe you could tell us a bit about that.Priscilla Chan (03:01):Yeah, so at CZI, we work on basic science research, and I think that often surprises people because they know that I'm a pediatrician. And so, they often think, oh, you must work in healthcare or healthcare delivery. And we've actually chosen very intentionally to work in basic science research. In part because my training as a pediatrician at UCSF. As you both know, UCSF is a tertiary coronary care center where we see very unusual and rare cases of pediatric presentations. And it was there where I learned how little we knew about rare diseases and diseases in general and how powerful patients were. And that research was the pipeline for hope and for new discoveries for these families that often otherwise don't have very much access to treatments or cures. They have a PDF that maybe describes what their child has. And so, I decided to invest in basic science through CZI, but always saw the power of bringing rare disease patient cohorts. One, because if you've ever met a parent of a child with rare disease, they are a force to be reckoned with. Two, they can make research so much better due to their insights as patients and patient advocates. And I think they close the distance between basic science and impact in patients. And so, we've been working on that since 2019 and has been a passion of ours.Eric Topol (04:40):Wow, that's great. Now Jennifer, this IGI that you founded a decade ago, it's doing all kinds of things that are even well beyond rare diseases. We recently spoke, I know on Ground Truths about things as diverse as editing the gut microbiome in asthma and potentially someday Alzheimer's. But here you were very much involved at IGI with the baby KJ Muldoon. Maybe you could take us through this because this is such an extraordinary advance in the whole CRISPR Cures story.Jennifer Doudna (05:18):Yes, Eric. It's a very exciting story and we're very, very proud of the teamwork that went into making it possible to cure baby KJ of his very rare disease. And in brief, the story began back in August of last year when he was born with a metabolic disorder that prevented him from digesting protein, it's called a urea cycle disorder and rare, but extremely severe. And to the point where he was in the ICU and facing a very, very difficult prognosis. And so, fortunately his clinical team at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) reached out to Fyodor Urnov, who is the Director of Translational Medicine at the IGI here in the Bay Area. They teamed up and realized that they could quickly diagnose that child because we had an IRB approved here at the IGI that allowed us to collect patient samples and do diagnosis. So that was done.Jennifer Doudna (06:26):We created an off-the-shelf CRISPR therapy that would be targeted to the exact mutation that caused that young boy's disease. And then we worked with the FDA in Washington to make sure that we could very safely proceed with testing of that therapy initially in the lab and then ultimately in two different animal models. And then we opened a clinical trial that allowed that boy to be enrolled with, of course his parents' approval and for him to be dosed and the result was spectacular. And in fact, he was released from the hospital recently as a happy, healthy child, gaining lots of weight and looking very chunky. So it's really exciting.Eric Topol (07:16):It's so amazing. I don't think people necessarily grasp this. This timeline [see above] that we'll post with this is just mind boggling how you could, as you said Jennifer, in about six months to go from the birth and sequencing through cell specific cultures with the genome mutations through multiple experimental models with non-human primates even, looking at off-target effects, through the multiple FDA reviews and then dosing, cumulatively three dosing to save this baby's life. It really just amazing. Now that is a template. And before we go to this new Center, I just wanted to also mention not just the timeline of compression, which is unimaginable and the partnership that you've had at IGI with I guess Danaher to help manufacture, which is just another part of the story. But also the fact that you're not just even with CRISPR 1.0 as being used in approvals previously for sickle cell and β-thalassemia, but now we're talking about base editing in vivo in the body using mRNA delivery. So maybe you could comment on that, Jennifer.Jennifer Doudna (08:38):Yeah, very good point. So yeah, we used a version of CRISPR that was created by David Liu at the Broad Institute and published and available. And so, it was possible to create that, again, targeted to the exact mutation that caused baby KJ's disease. And fortunately, there was also an off-the-shelf way to deliver it because we had access to lipid nanoparticles that were developed for other purposes including vaccinations. And the type of disease that KJ suffered from is one that is treatable by editing cells in the liver, which is where the lipid nanoparticle naturally goes. So there were definitely some serendipity here, but it was amazing how all of these pieces were available. We just had to pull them together to create this therapy.Eric Topol (09:30):Yeah, no, it is amazing. So that I think is a great substrate for starting a new Center. And so, maybe back to you Priscilla, as to what your vision was when working with Jennifer and IGI to go through with this.Priscilla Chan (09:45):I think the thing that's incredibly exciting, you mentioned that at CZI our mission is to cure, prevent, and manage all disease. And when we talked about this 10 years ago, it felt like this far off idea, but every day it seems closer and closer. And I think the part that's super exciting about this is the direct connection between the basic science that's happening in CRISPR and the molecular and down to the nucleotide understanding of these mutations and the ability to correct them. And I think many of us, our imaginations have included this possibility, but it's very exciting that it has happened with baby KJ and CHOP. And we need to be able to do the work to understand how we can treat more patients this way, how to understand the obstacles, unblock them, streamline the process, bring down the cost, so that we better understand this pathway for treatment, as well as to increasingly democratize access to this type of platform. And so, our hope is to be able to do that. Take the work and inspiration that IGI and the team at CHOP have done and continue to push forward and to look at more cases, look at more organ systems. We're going to be looking in addition to the liver, at the bone marrow and the immune system.Priscilla Chan (11:17):And to be able to really work through more of the steps so that we can bring this to more families and patients.Eric Topol (11:30):Yeah, well it's pretty remarkable because here you have incurable ultra-rare diseases. If you can help these babies, just think of what this could do in a much broader context. I mean there a lot of common diseases have their roots with some of these very rare ones. So how do you see going forward, Jennifer, as to where you UC Berkeley, Gladstone, UCSF. I'm envious of you all up there in Northern California I have to say, will pull this off. How will you get the first similar case to KJ Muldoon going forward?Jennifer Doudna (12:13):Right. Well, IGI is a joint institute, as you probably know, Eric. So we were founded 10 years ago as a joint institute between UC Berkeley and UCSF. And now we have a third campus partner, UC Davis and we have the Gladstone Institute. So we've got an extraordinary group of clinicians and researchers that are coming together for this project and the Center to make it a success. We are building a clinical team at UCSF. We have several extraordinary leaders including Jennifer Puck and Chris Dvorak, and they are both going to be involved in identifying patients that could be enrolled in this program based on their diagnosis. And we will have a clinical advisory group that will help with that as well. So we'll be vetting patients probably right after we announce this, we're going to be looking to start enrolling people who might need this type of help.Eric Topol (13:18):Do you think it's possible to go any faster right now than the six months that it took for KJ?Jennifer Doudna (13:26):I think it could be. And here's the reason. There's a very interesting possibility that because of the type of technology that we're talking about with CRISPR, which fundamentally, and you and I have talked about this previously on your other podcast. But we've talked about the fact that it's a programmable technology and that means that we can change one aspect of it, one piece of it, which is a piece of a molecule called RNA that's able to direct CRISPR to the right sequence where we want to do editing and not change anything else about it. The protein, the CRISPR protein stays the same, the delivery vehicle stays the same, everything else stays the same. And so, we're working right now with FDA to get a platform designation for CRISPR that might allow streamlining of the testing process in some cases. So it'll obviously come down to the details of the disease, but we're hopeful that in the end it will be possible. And Priscilla and I have talked about this too, that as AI continues to advance and we get more and more information about rare diseases, we'll be able to predict accurately the effects of editing. And so, in some cases in the future it may be possible to streamline the testing process even further safely.Eric Topol (14:51):And I also would note, as you both know, well this administration is really keen on genome editing and they've had a joint announcement regarding their support. And in my discussions with the FDA commissioner, this is something they are very excited about. So the timing of the new Center for pediatric CRISPR Cures is aligned with the current administration, which is good to see. It's not always the case. Now going back, Priscilla, to your point that not just for the liver because delivery has been an issue of course, and we're going to try to get after a lot of these really rare diseases, it's going to go beyond there. So this is also an exciting new dimension of the Center, as you said, to go after the bone marrow for hematopoietic cells, perhaps other organs as well.Priscilla Chan (15:42):I mean what the expertise and feasibility, the immune system is going to be the next target. Jennifer Puck has been a pioneer in this work. She's the one who designed the newborn screen that will be the tool that picks up these patients as they are born. And I think the thing that's tremendous is the immune system, first of all is active in many, many diseases, not just these cases of children born with partial or absence of immune systems. And the course right now that these babies are left with is complete isolation and then a very long and arduous course of a bone marrow transplant with high morbidity and mortality. And even if after the transplant you have complications like graft versus host and immunosuppression. And so, the idea of being able to very specifically and with less the conditioning and morbidity and mortality of the treatment, being able to address this is incredible. And the implications for other diseases like blood cancers or other hematopoietic diseases, that's incredible. And that actually has an incredibly broad base of patients that can benefit from the learnings from these babies with severe combined immunodeficiencies.Eric Topol (17:10):Yeah, I think that goes back to a point earlier maybe to amplify in that previous CRISPR generation, it required outside the body work and it was extremely laborious and time consuming and obviously added much more to the expense because of hospitalization time. This is different. This is basically doing this inside the affected patient's body. And that is one of the biggest reasons why this is a big step forward and why we're so fortunate that your Center is moving forward. Maybe before we wrap up, you might want to comment, Jennifer on how you were able to bring in to build this platform, the manufacturing arm of it, because that seems to be yet another dimension that's helpful.Jennifer Doudna (18:01):Indeed, yes. And we were again fortunate with timing because you mentioned briefly that the IGI had set up a program with the Danaher Corporation back in January of last year. We call it our Beacon project. And it's focused on rare disease. And it's a really interesting kind of a unique partnership because Danaher is a manufacturing conglomerate. So they have companies that make molecules, they make proteins, they make RNA molecules, they make delivery molecules. And so, they were excited to be involved with us because they want to be a provider of these types of therapies in the future. And they can see the future of CRISPR is very exciting. It's expanding, growing area. And so, that agreement was in place already when the baby KJ case came to our attention. And so, what we're hoping to do with Danaher is again, work with them and their scientists to continue to ask, how can we reduce the cost of these therapies by reducing the cost of the molecules that are necessary, how to make them efficiently. We already, it's very interesting, Fyodor Urnov has toured their plant in North Dakota recently, and he found in talking to their engineers, there are a number of things that we can already see will be possible to do that are going to make the process of manufacturing these molecules faster and cheaper by a lot.Eric Topol (19:28):Wow.Jennifer Doudna (19:28):So it's a win-win for everybody. And so, we're really excited to do that in the context of this new Center.Eric Topol (19:36):Oh, that's phenomenal because some of these disorders you don't have that much time to work with before they could be brain or organ or vital tissue damage. So that's great to hear that. What you built here is the significance of it can't be under emphasized, I'll say because we have this May report of baby KJ, which could have been a one-off and it could have been years before we saw another cure of an ultra-rare disorder. And what you're doing here is insurance against that. You're going to have many more cracks at this. And I think this is the excitement about having a new dedicated Center. So just in closing, maybe some remarks from you Priscilla.Priscilla Chan (20:24):I just want to emphasize one point that's really exciting as we talk about these ultra-rare cases that they're often like one in a million. All these learnings actually help maximize the impact of lots of research across the sector that impacts actually everyone's health. And so, our learnings here from these patients that have very significant presentations that really can stand to benefit from any treatment is hopefully paving the way for many, many more of us to be able to live healthier, higher quality lives through basic science.Eric Topol (21:13):And over to you, Jennifer.Jennifer Doudna (21:15):Couldn't agree more. It's a really interesting moment. I think what we hope we are, is we're at sort of an inflection point where, as I mentioned earlier, all the pieces are in place to do this kind of therapeutic and we just need a team that will focus on doing it and pulling it together. And also learning from that process so that as Priscilla just said, we are ultimately able to use the same strategy for other diseases and potentially for diseases that affect lots of people. So it's exciting.Eric Topol (21:46):For sure. Now, if I could just sum up, this is now a decade past the origination of your work of CRISPR and how already at the first decade culminated in sickle cell disease treatment and β-thalassemia. Now we're into the second decade of CRISPR. And look what we've seen, something that was unimaginable until it actually happened and was reported just a little over a month ago. Now going back to Priscilla's point, we're talking about thousands of different rare Mendelian genomic disorders, thousands of them. And if you add them all up of rare diseases, we're talking about hundreds of millions of people affected around the world. So this is a foray into something much bigger, no less the fact that some of these rare mutations are shared by common diseases and approaches. So this really big stuff, congratulations to both of you and your organizations, the Innovative Genomics Institute and the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative for taking this on. We'll be following it with very deep interest, thank you.****************************************************Thanks for listening, reading and subscribing to Ground Truths.If you found this interesting PLEASE share it!That makes the work involved in putting these together especially worthwhile.Thanks to Scripps Research, and my producer, Jessica Nguyen, and Sinjun Balabanoff for video/audio support.All content on Ground Truths—its newsletters, analyses, and podcasts, are free, open-access.Paid subscriptions are voluntary and all proceeds from them go to support Scripps Research. They do allow for posting comments and questions, which I do my best to respond to. Please don't hesitate to post comments and give me feedback. Let me know topics that you would like to see covered.Many thanks to those who have contributed—they have greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for the past two years. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

Eric Topol es un reconocido investigador en EE.UU. que ha publicado varios artículos científicos. En su más reciente libro, se adentra en la ciencia de cómo envejecer mejor y ofrece un enfoque optimista.

We need to redefine what a vacation is and make certain it is something more than just a trip or time off. Let's get serious about supporting our well-being and creating the conditions so that we can grow our mind, body, spirit and soul. Join us as we reframe taking a vacation and create moments that just "take you away" from the things in life that don't add to who you are.   Books: Careless People, Sarah Wynn Williams On Character, Gen. Stanley McCrystal Casting Forward, Steve Ramirez Super Agers, Eric Topol  

“To navigate proof, we must reach into a thicket of errors and biases. We must confront monsters and embrace uncertainty, balancing — and rebalancing —our beliefs. We must seek out every useful fragment of data, gather every relevant tool, searching wider and climbing further. Finding the good foundations among the bad. Dodging dogma and falsehoods. Questioning. Measuring. Triangulating. Convincing. Then perhaps, just perhaps, we'll reach the truth in time.”—Adam KucharskiMy conversation with Professor Kucharski on what constitutes certainty and proof in science (and other domains), with emphasis on many of the learnings from Covid. Given the politicization of science and A.I.'s deepfakes and power for blurring of truth, it's hard to think of a topic more important right now.Audio file (Ground Truths can also be downloaded on Apple Podcasts and Spotify)Eric Topol (00:06):Hello, it's Eric Topol from Ground Truths and I am really delighted to welcome Adam Kucharski, who is the author of a new book, Proof: The Art and Science of Certainty. He's a distinguished mathematician, by the way, the first mathematician we've had on Ground Truths and a person who I had the real privilege of getting to know a bit through the Covid pandemic. So welcome, Adam.Adam Kucharski (00:28):Thanks for having me.Eric Topol (00:30):Yeah, I mean, I think just to let everybody know, you're a Professor at London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and also noteworthy you won the Adams Prize, which is one of the most impressive recognitions in the field of mathematics. This is the book, it's a winner, Proof and there's so much to talk about. So Adam, maybe what I'd start off is the quote in the book that captivates in the beginning, “life is full of situations that can reveal remarkably large gaps in our understanding of what is true and why it's true. This is a book about those gaps.” So what was the motivation when you undertook this very big endeavor?Adam Kucharski (01:17):I think a lot of it comes to the work I do at my day job where we have to deal with a lot of evidence under pressure, particularly if you work in outbreaks or emerging health concerns. And often it really pushes the limits, our methodology and how we converge on what's true subject to potential revision in the future. I think particularly having a background in math's, I think you kind of grow up with this idea that you can get to these concrete, almost immovable truths and then even just looking through the history, realizing that often isn't the case, that there's these kind of very human dynamics that play out around them. And it's something I think that everyone in science can reflect on that sometimes what convinces us doesn't convince other people, and particularly when you have that kind of urgency of time pressure, working out how to navigate that.Eric Topol (02:05):Yeah. Well, I mean I think these times of course have really gotten us to appreciate, particularly during Covid, the importance of understanding uncertainty. And I think one of the ways that we can dispel what people assume they know is the famous Monty Hall, which you get into a bit in the book. So I think everybody here is familiar with that show, Let's Make a Deal and maybe you can just take us through what happens with one of the doors are unveiled and how that changes the mathematics.Adam Kucharski (02:50):Yeah, sure. So I think it is a problem that's been around for a while and it's based on this game show. So you've got three doors that are closed. Behind two of the doors there is a goat and behind one of the doors is a luxury car. So obviously, you want to win the car. The host asks you to pick a door, so you point to one, maybe door number two, then the host who knows what's behind the doors opens another door to reveal a goat and then ask you, do you want to change your mind? Do you want to switch doors? And a lot of the, I think intuition people have, and certainly when I first came across this problem many years ago is well, you've got two doors left, right? You've picked one, there's another one, it's 50-50. And even some quite well-respected mathematicians.Adam Kucharski (03:27):People like Paul Erdős who was really published more papers than almost anyone else, that was their initial gut reaction. But if you work through all of the combinations, if you pick this door and then the host does this, and you switch or not switch and work through all of those options. You actually double your chances if you switch versus sticking with the door. So something that's counterintuitive, but I think one of the things that really struck me and even over the years trying to explain it is convincing myself of the answer, which was when I first came across it as a teenager, I did quite quickly is very different to convincing someone else. And even actually Paul Erdős, one of his colleagues showed him what I call proof by exhaustion. So go through every combination and that didn't really convince him. So then he started to simulate and said, well, let's do a computer simulation of the game a hundred thousand times. And again, switching was this optimal strategy, but Erdős wasn't really convinced because I accept that this is the case, but I'm not really satisfied with it. And I think that encapsulates for a lot of people, their experience of proof and evidence. It's a fact and you have to take it as given, but there's actually quite a big bridge often to really understanding why it's true and feeling convinced by it.Eric Topol (04:41):Yeah, I think it's a fabulous example because I think everyone would naturally assume it's 50-50 and it isn't. And I think that gets us to the topic at hand. What I love, there's many things I love about this book. One is that you don't just get into science and medicine, but you cut across all the domains, law, mathematics, AI. So it's a very comprehensive sweep of everything about proof and truth, and it couldn't come at a better time as we'll get into. Maybe just starting off with math, the term I love mathematical monsters. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Adam Kucharski (05:25):Yeah, this was a fascinating situation that emerged in the late 19th century where a lot of math's, certainly in Europe had been derived from geometry because a lot of the ancient Greek influence on how we shaped things and then Newton and his work on rates of change and calculus, it was really the natural world that provided a lot of inspiration, these kind of tangible objects, tangible movements. And as mathematicians started to build out the theory around rates of change and how we tackle these kinds of situations, they sometimes took that intuition a bit too seriously. And there was some theorems that they said were intuitively obvious, some of these French mathematicians. And so, one for example is this idea of you how things change smoothly over time and how you do those calculations. But what happened was some mathematicians came along and showed that when you have things that can be infinitely small, that intuition didn't necessarily hold in the same way.Adam Kucharski (06:26):And they came up with these examples that broke a lot of these theorems and a lot of the establishments at the time called these things monsters. They called them these aberrations against common sense and this idea that if Newton had known about them, he never would've done all of his discovery because they're just nuisances and we just need to get rid of them. And there's this real tension at the core of mathematics in the late 1800s where some people just wanted to disregard this and say, look, it works for most of the time, that's good enough. And then others really weren't happy with this quite vague logic. They wanted to put it on much sturdier ground. And what was remarkable actually is if you trace this then into the 20th century, a lot of these monsters and these particularly in some cases functions which could almost move constantly, this constant motion rather than our intuitive concept of movement as something that's smooth, if you drop an apple, it accelerates at a very smooth rate, would become foundational in our understanding of things like probability, Einstein's work on atomic theory. A lot of these concepts where geometry breaks down would be really important in relativity. So actually, these things that we thought were monsters actually were all around us all the time, and science couldn't advance without them. So I think it's just this remarkable example of this tension within a field that supposedly concrete and the things that were going to be shunned actually turn out to be quite important.Eric Topol (07:53):It's great how you convey how nature isn't so neat and tidy and things like Brownian motion, understanding that, I mean, just so many things that I think fit into that general category. In the legal, we won't get into too much because that's not so much the audience of Ground Truths, but the classic things about innocent and until proven guilty and proof beyond reasonable doubt, I mean these are obviously really important parts of that overall sense of proof and truth. We're going to get into one thing I'm fascinated about related to that subsequently and then in science. So before we get into the different types of proof, obviously the pandemic is still fresh in our minds and we're an endemic with Covid now, and there are so many things we got wrong along the way of uncertainty and didn't convey that science isn't always evolving search for what is the truth. There's plenty no shortage of uncertainty at any moment. So can you recap some of the, you did so much work during the pandemic and obviously some of it's in the book. What were some of the major things that you took out of proof and truth from the pandemic?Adam Kucharski (09:14):I think it was almost this story of two hearts because on the one hand, science was the thing that got us where we are today. The reason that so much normality could resume and so much risk was reduced was development of vaccines and the understanding of treatments and the understanding of variants as they came to their characteristics. So it was kind of this amazing opportunity to see this happen faster than it ever happened in history. And I think ever in science, it certainly shifted a lot of my thinking about what's possible and even how we should think about these kinds of problems. But also on the other hand, I think where people might have been more familiar with seeing science progress a bit more slowly and reach consensus around some of these health issues, having that emerge very rapidly can present challenges even we found with some of the work we did on Alpha and then the Delta variants, and it was the early quantification of these.Adam Kucharski (10:08):So really the big question is, is this thing more transmissible? Because at the time countries were thinking about control measures, thinking about relaxing things, and you've got this just enormous social economic health decision-making based around essentially is it a lot more spreadable or is it not? And you only had these fragments of evidence. So I think for me, that was really an illustration of the sharp end. And I think what we ended up doing with some of those was rather than arguing over a precise number, something like Delta, instead we kind of looked at, well, what's the range that matters? So in the sense of arguing over whether it's 40% or 50% or 30% more transmissible is perhaps less important than being, it's substantially more transmissible and it's going to start going up. Is it going to go up extremely fast or just very fast?Adam Kucharski (10:59):That's still a very useful conclusion. I think what often created some of the more challenges, I think the things that on reflection people looking back pick up on are where there was probably overstated certainty. We saw that around some of the airborne spread, for example, stated as a fact by in some cases some organizations, I think in some situations as well, governments had a constraint and presented it as scientific. So the UK, for example, would say testing isn't useful. And what was happening at the time was there wasn't enough tests. So it was more a case of they can't test at that volume. But I think blowing between what the science was saying and what the decision-making, and I think also one thing we found in the UK was we made a lot of the epidemiological evidence available. I think that was really, I think something that was important.Adam Kucharski (11:51):I found it a lot easier to communicate if talking to the media to be able to say, look, this is the paper that's out, this is what it means, this is the evidence. I always found it quite uncomfortable having to communicate things where you knew there were reports behind the scenes, but you couldn't actually articulate. But I think what that did is it created this impression that particularly epidemiology was driving the decision-making a lot more than it perhaps was in reality because so much of that was being made public and a lot more of the evidence around education or economics was being done behind the scenes. I think that created this kind of asymmetry in public perception about how that was feeding in. And so, I think there was always that, and it happens, it is really hard as well as a scientist when you've got journalists asking you how to run the country to work out those steps of am I describing the evidence behind what we're seeing? Am I describing the evidence about different interventions or am I proposing to some extent my value system on what we do? And I think all of that in very intense times can be very easy to get blurred together in public communication. I think we saw a few examples of that where things were being the follow the science on policy type angle where actually once you get into what you're prioritizing within a society, quite rightly, you've got other things beyond just the epidemiology driving that.Eric Topol (13:09):Yeah, I mean that term that you just use follow the science is such an important term because it tells us about the dynamic aspect. It isn't just a snapshot, it's constantly being revised. But during the pandemic we had things like the six-foot rule that was never supported by data, but yet still today, if I walk around my hospital and there's still the footprints of the six-foot rule and not paying attention to the fact that this was airborne and took years before some of these things were accepted. The flatten the curve stuff with lockdowns, which I never was supportive of that, but perhaps at the worst point, the idea that hospitals would get overrun was an issue, but it got carried away with school shutdowns for prolonged periods and in some parts of the world, especially very stringent lockdowns. But anyway, we learned a lot.Eric Topol (14:10):But perhaps one of the greatest lessons is that people's expectations about science is that it's absolute and somehow you have this truth that's not there. I mean, it's getting revised. It's kind of on the job training, it's on this case on the pandemic revision. But very interesting. And that gets us to, I think the next topic, which I think is a fundamental part of the book distributed throughout the book, which is the different types of proof in biomedicine and of course across all these domains. And so, you take us through things like randomized trials, p-values, 95 percent confidence intervals, counterfactuals, causation and correlation, peer review, the works, which is great because a lot of people have misconceptions of these things. So for example, randomized trials, which is the temple of the randomized trials, they're not as great as a lot of people think, yes, they can help us establish cause and effect, but they're skewed because of the people who come into the trial. So they may not at all be a representative sample. What are your thoughts about over deference to randomized trials?Adam Kucharski (15:31):Yeah, I think that the story of how we rank evidence in medicines a fascinating one. I mean even just how long it took for people to think about these elements of randomization. Fundamentally, what we're trying to do when we have evidence here in medicine or science is prevent ourselves from confusing randomness for a signal. I mean, that's fundamentally, we don't want to mistake something, we think it's going on and it's not. And the challenge, particularly with any intervention is you only get to see one version of reality. You can't give someone a drug, follow them, rewind history, not give them the drug and then follow them again. So one of the things that essentially randomization allows us to do is, if you have two groups, one that's been randomized, one that hasn't on average, the difference in outcomes between those groups is going to be down to the treatment effect.Adam Kucharski (16:20):So it doesn't necessarily mean in reality that'd be the case, but on average that's the expectation that you'd have. And it's kind of interesting actually that the first modern randomized control trial (RCT) in medicine in 1947, this is for TB and streptomycin. The randomization element actually, it wasn't so much statistical as behavioral, that if you have people coming to hospital, you could to some extent just say, we'll just alternate. We're not going to randomize. We're just going to first patient we'll say is a control, second patient a treatment. But what they found in a lot of previous studies was doctors have bias. Maybe that patient looks a little bit ill or that one maybe is on borderline for eligibility. And often you got these quite striking imbalances when you allowed it for human judgment. So it was really about shielding against those behavioral elements. But I think there's a few situations, it's a really powerful tool for a lot of these questions, but as you mentioned, one is this issue of you have the population you study on and then perhaps in reality how that translates elsewhere.Adam Kucharski (17:17):And we see, I mean things like flu vaccines are a good example, which are very dependent on immunity and evolution and what goes on in different populations. Sometimes you've had a result on a vaccine in one place and then the effectiveness doesn't translate in the same way to somewhere else. I think the other really important thing to bear in mind is, as I said, it's the averaging that you're getting an average effect between two different groups. And I think we see certainly a lot of development around things like personalized medicine where actually you're much more interested in the outcome for the individual. And so, what a trial can give you evidence is on average across a group, this is the effect that I can expect this intervention to have. But we've now seen more of the emergence things like N=1 studies where you can actually over the same individual, particularly for chronic conditions, look at those kind of interventions.Adam Kucharski (18:05):And also there's just these extreme examples where you're ethically not going to run a trial, there's never been a trial of whether it's a good idea to have intensive care units in hospitals or there's a lot of these kind of historical treatments which are just so overwhelmingly effective that we're not going to run trial. So almost this hierarchy over time, you can see it getting shifted because actually you do have these situations where other forms of evidence can get you either closer to what you need or just more feasibly an answer where it's just not ethical or practical to do an RCT.Eric Topol (18:37):And that brings us to the natural experiments I just wrote about recently, the one with shingles, which there's two big natural experiments to suggest that shingles vaccine might reduce the risk of Alzheimer's, an added benefit beyond the shingles that was not anticipated. Your thoughts about natural experiments, because here you're getting a much different type of population assessment, again, not at the individual level, but not necessarily restricted by some potentially skewed enrollment criteria.Adam Kucharski (19:14):I think this is as emerged as a really valuable tool. It's kind of interesting, in the book you're talking to economists like Josh Angrist, that a lot of these ideas emerge in epidemiology, but I think were really then taken up by economists, particularly as they wanted to add more credibility to a lot of these policy questions. And ultimately, it comes down to this issue that for a lot of problems, we can't necessarily intervene and randomize, but there might be a situation that's done it to some extent for us, so the classic example is the Vietnam draft where it was kind of random birthdays with drawn out of lottery. And so, there's been a lot of studies subsequently about the effect of serving in the military on different subsequent lifetime outcomes because broadly those people have been randomized. It was for a different reason. But you've got that element of randomization driving that.Adam Kucharski (20:02):And so again, with some of the recent shingles data and other studies, you might have a situation for example, where there's been an intervention that's somewhat arbitrary in terms of time. It's a cutoff on a birth date, for example. And under certain assumptions you could think, well, actually there's no real reason for the person on this day and this day to be fundamentally different. I mean, perhaps there might be effects of cohorts if it's school years or this sort of thing. But generally, this isn't the same as having people who are very, very different ages and very different characteristics. It's just nature, or in this case, just a policy intervention for a different reason has given you that randomization, which allows you or pseudo randomization, which allows you to then look at something about the effect of an intervention that you wouldn't as reliably if you were just digging into the data of yes, no who's received a vaccine.Eric Topol (20:52):Yeah, no, I think it's really valuable. And now I think increasingly given priority, if you can find these natural experiments and they're not always so abundant to use to extrapolate from, but when they are, they're phenomenal. The causation correlation is so big. The issue there, I mean Judea Pearl's, the Book of Why, and you give so many great examples throughout the book in Proof. I wonder if you could comment that on that a bit more because this is where associations are confused somehow or other with a direct effect. And we unfortunately make these jumps all too frequently. Perhaps it's the most common problem that's occurring in the way we interpret medical research data.Adam Kucharski (21:52):Yeah, I think it's an issue that I think a lot of people get drilled into in their training just because a correlation between things doesn't mean that that thing causes this thing. But it really struck me as I talked to people, researching the book, in practice in research, there's actually a bit more to it in how it's played out. So first of all, if there's a correlation between things, it doesn't tell you much generally that's useful for intervention. If two things are correlated, it doesn't mean that changing that thing's going to have an effect on that thing. There might be something that's influencing both of them. If you have more ice cream sales, it will lead to more heat stroke cases. It doesn't mean that changing ice cream sales is going to have that effect, but it does allow you to make predictions potentially because if you can identify consistent patterns, you can say, okay, if this thing going up, I'm going to make a prediction that this thing's going up.Adam Kucharski (22:37):So one thing I found quite striking, actually talking to research in different fields is how many fields choose to focus on prediction because it kind of avoids having to deal with this cause and effect problem. And even in fields like psychology, it was kind of interesting that there's a lot of focus on predicting things like relationship outcomes, but actually for people, you don't want a prediction about your relationship. You want to know, well, how can I do something about it? You don't just want someone to sell you your relationship's going to go downhill. So there's almost part of the challenge is people just got stuck on prediction because it's an easier field of work, whereas actually some of those problems will involve intervention. I think the other thing that really stood out for me is in epidemiology and a lot of other fields, rightly, people are very cautious to not get that mixed up.Adam Kucharski (23:24):They don't want to mix up correlations or associations with causation, but you've kind of got this weird situation where a lot of papers go out of their way to not use causal language and say it's an association, it's just an association. It's just an association. You can't say anything about causality. And then the end of the paper, they'll say, well, we should think about introducing more of this thing or restricting this thing. So really the whole paper and its purpose is framed around a causal intervention, but it's extremely careful throughout the paper to not frame it as a causal claim. So I think we almost by skirting that too much, we actually avoid the problems that people sometimes care about. And I think a lot of the nice work that's been going on in causal inference is trying to get people to confront this more head on rather than say, okay, you can just stay in this prediction world and that's fine. And then just later maybe make a policy suggestion off the back of it.Eric Topol (24:20):Yeah, I think this is cause and effect is a very alluring concept to support proof as you so nicely go through in the book. But of course, one of the things that we use to help us is the biological mechanism. So here you have, let's say for example, you're trying to get a new drug approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and the request is, well, we want two trials, randomized trials, independent. We want to have p-values that are significant, and we want to know the biological mechanism ideally with the dose response of the drug. But there are many drugs as you review that have no biological mechanism established. And even when the tobacco problems were mounting, the actual mechanism of how tobacco use caused cancer wasn't known. So how important is the biological mechanism, especially now that we're well into the AI world where explainability is demanded. And so, we don't know the mechanism, but we also don't know the mechanism and lots of things in medicine too, like anesthetics and even things as simple as aspirin, how it works and many others. So how do we deal with this quest for the biological mechanism?Adam Kucharski (25:42):I think that's a really good point. It shows almost a lot of the transition I think we're going through currently. I think particularly for things like smoking cancer where it's very hard to run a trial. You can't make people randomly take up smoking. Having those additional pieces of evidence, whether it's an analogy with a similar carcinogen, whether it's a biological mechanism, can help almost give you more supports for that argument that there's a cause and effect going on. But I think what I found quite striking, and I realized actually that it's something that had kind of bothered me a bit and I'd be interested to hear whether it bothers you, but with the emergence of AI, it's almost a bit of the loss of scientific satisfaction. I think you grow up with learning about how the world works and why this is doing what it's doing.Adam Kucharski (26:26):And I talked for example of some of the people involved with AlphaFold and some of the subsequent work in installing those predictions about structures. And they'd almost made peace with it, which I found interesting because I think they started off being a bit uncomfortable with like, yeah, you've got these remarkable AI models making these predictions, but we don't understand still biologically what's happening here. But I think they're just settled in saying, well, biology is really complex on some of these problems, and if we can have a tool that can give us this extremely valuable information, maybe that's okay. And it was just interesting that they'd really kind of gone through that kind process, which I think a lot of people are still grappling with and that almost that discomfort of using AI and what's going to convince you that that's a useful reliable prediction whether it's something like predicting protein folding or getting in a self-driving car. What's the evidence you need to convince you that's reliable?Eric Topol (27:26):Yeah, no, I'm so glad you brought that up because when Demis Hassabis and John Jumper won the Nobel Prize, the point I made was maybe there should be an asterisk with AI because they don't know how it works. I mean, they had all the rich data from the protein data bank, and they got the transformer model to do it for 200 million protein structure prediction, but they still to this day don't fully understand how the model really was working. So it reinforces what you're just saying. And of course, it cuts across so many types of AI. It's just that we tend to hold different standards in medicine not realizing that there's lots of lack of explainability for routine medical treatments today. Now one of the things that I found fascinating in your book, because there's different levels of proof, different types of proof, but solid logical systems.Eric Topol (28:26):And on page 60 of the book, especially pertinent to the US right now, there is a bit about Kurt Gödel and what he did there was he basically, there was a question about dictatorship in the US could it ever occur? And Gödel says, “oh, yes, I can prove it.” And he's using the constitution itself to prove it, which I found fascinating because of course we're seeing that emerge right now. Can you give us a little bit more about this, because this is fascinating about the Fifth Amendment, and I mean I never thought that the Constitution would allow for a dictatorship to emerge.Adam Kucharski (29:23):And this was a fascinating story, Kurt Gödel who is one of the greatest logical minds of the 20th century and did a lot of work, particularly in the early 20th century around system of rules, particularly things like mathematics and whether they can ever be really fully satisfying. So particularly in mathematics, he showed that there were this problem that is very hard to have a set of rules for something like arithmetic that was both complete and covered every situation, but also had no contradictions. And I think a lot of countries, if you go back, things like Napoleonic code and these attempts to almost write down every possible legal situation that could be imaginable, always just ascended into either they needed amendments or they had contradictions. I think Gödel's work really summed it up, and there's a story, this is in the late forties when he had his citizenship interview and Einstein and Oskar Morgenstern went along as witnesses for him.Adam Kucharski (30:17):And it's always told as kind of a lighthearted story as this logical mind, this academic just saying something silly in front of the judge. And actually, to my own admission, I've in the past given talks and mentioned it in this slightly kind of lighthearted way, but for the book I got talking to a few people who'd taken it more seriously. I realized actually he's this extremely logically focused mind at the time, and maybe there should have been something more to it. And people who have kind of dug more into possibilities was saying, well, what could he have spotted that bothered him? And a lot of his work that he did about consistency in mass was around particularly self-referential statements. So if I say this sentence is false, it's self-referential and if it is false, then it's true, but if it's true, then it's false and you get this kind of weird self-referential contradictions.Adam Kucharski (31:13):And so, one of the theories about Gödel was that in the Constitution, it wasn't that there was a kind of rule for someone can become a dictator, but rather people can use the mechanisms within the Constitution to make it easier to make further amendments. And he kind of downward cycle of amendment that he had seen happening in Europe and the run up to the war, and again, because this is never fully documented exactly what he thought, but it's one of the theories that it wouldn't just be outright that it would just be this cycle process of weakening and weakening and weakening and making it easier to add. And actually, when I wrote that, it was all the earlier bits of the book that I drafted, I did sort of debate whether including it I thought, is this actually just a bit in the weeds of American history? And here we are. Yeah, it's remarkable.Eric Topol (32:00):Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I found, it struck me when I was reading this because here back in 1947, there was somebody predicting that this could happen based on some, if you want to call it loopholes if you will, or the ability to change things, even though you would've thought otherwise that there wasn't any possible capability for that to happen. Now, one of the things I thought was a bit contradictory is two parts here. One is from Angus Deaton, he wrote, “Gold standard thinking is magical thinking.” And then the other is what you basically are concluding in many respects. “To navigate proof, we must reach into a thicket of errors and biases. We must confront monsters and embrace uncertainty, balancing — and rebalancing —our beliefs. We must seek out every useful fragment of data, gather every relevant tool, searching wider and climbing further. Finding the good foundations among the bad. Dodging dogma and falsehoods. Questioning. Measuring. Triangulating. Convincing. Then perhaps, just perhaps, we'll reach the truth in time.” So here you have on the one hand your search for the truth, proof, which I think that little paragraph says it all. In many respects, it sums up somewhat to the work that you review here and on the other you have this Nobel laureate saying, you don't have to go to extremes here. The enemy of good is perfect, perhaps. I mean, how do you reconcile this sense that you shouldn't go so far? Don't search for absolute perfection of proof.Adam Kucharski (33:58):Yeah, I think that encapsulates a lot of what the book is about, is that search for certainty and how far do you have to go. I think one of the things, there's a lot of interesting discussion, some fascinating papers around at what point do you use these studies? What are their flaws? But I think one of the things that does stand out is across fields, across science, medicine, even if you going to cover law, AI, having these kind of cookie cutter, this is the definitive way of doing it. And if you just follow this simple rule, if you do your p-value, you'll get there and you'll be fine. And I think that's where a lot of the danger is. And I think that's what we've seen over time. Certain science people chasing certain targets and all the behaviors that come around that or in certain situations disregarding valuable evidence because you've got this kind of gold standard and nothing else will do.Adam Kucharski (34:56):And I think particularly in a crisis, it's very dangerous to have that because you might have a low level of evidence that demands a certain action and you almost bias yourself towards inaction if you have these kind of very simple thresholds. So I think for me, across all of these stories and across the whole book, I mean William Gosset who did a lot of pioneering work on statistical experiments at Guinness in the early 20th century, he had this nice question he sort of framed is, how much do we lose? And if we're thinking about the problems, there's always more studies we can do, there's always more confidence we can have, but whether it's a patient we want to treat or crisis we need to deal with, we need to work out actually getting that level of proof that's really appropriate for where we are currently.Eric Topol (35:49):I think exceptionally important that there's this kind of spectrum or continuum in following science and search for truth and that distinction, I think really nails it. Now, one of the things that's unique in the book is you don't just go through all the different types of how you would get to proof, but you also talk about how the evidence is acted on. And for example, you quote, “they spent a lot of time misinforming themselves.” This is the whole idea of taking data and torturing it or using it, dredging it however way you want to support either conspiracy theories or alternative facts. Basically, manipulating sometimes even emasculating what evidence and data we have. And one of the sentences, or I guess this is from Sir Francis Bacon, “truth is a daughter of time”, but the added part is not authority. So here we have our president here that repeats things that are wrong, fabricated or wrong, and he keeps repeating to the point that people believe it's true. But on the other hand, you could say truth is a daughter of time because you like to not accept any truth immediately. You like to see it get replicated and further supported, backed up. So in that one sentence, truth is a daughter of time not authority, there's the whole ball of wax here. Can you take us through that? Because I just think that people don't understand that truth being tested over time, but also manipulated by its repetition. This is a part of the big problem that we live in right now.Adam Kucharski (37:51):And I think it's something that writing the book and actually just reflecting on it subsequently has made me think about a lot in just how people approach these kinds of problems. I think that there's an idea that conspiracy theorists are just lazy and have maybe just fallen for a random thing, but talking to people, you really think about these things a lot more in the field. And actually, the more I've ended up engaging with people who believe things that are just outright unevidenced around vaccines, around health issues, they often have this mountain of papers and data to hand and a lot of it, often they will be peer reviewed papers. It won't necessarily be supporting the point that they think it's supports.Adam Kucharski (38:35):But it's not something that you can just say everything you're saying is false, that there's actually often a lot of things that have been put together and it's just that leap to that conclusion. I think you also see a lot of scientific language borrowed. So I gave a talker early this year and it got posted on YouTube. It had conspiracy theories it, and there was a lot of conspiracy theory supporters who piled in the comments and one of the points they made is skepticism is good. It's the kind of law society, take no one's word for it, you need this. We are the ones that are kind of doing science and people who just assume that science is settled are in the wrong. And again, you also mentioned that repetition. There's this phenomenon, it's the illusory truth problem that if you repeatedly tell someone someone's something's false, it'll increase their belief in it even if it's something quite outrageous.Adam Kucharski (39:27):And that mimics that scientific repetition because people kind of say, okay, well if I've heard it again and again, it's almost like if you tweak these as mini experiments, I'm just accumulating evidence that this thing is true. So it made me think a lot about how you've got essentially a lot of mimicry of the scientific method, amount of data and how you present it and this kind of skepticism being good, but I think a lot of it comes down to as well as just looking at theological flaws, but also ability to be wrong in not actually seeking out things that confirm. I think all of us, it's something that I've certainly tried to do a lot working on emergencies, and one of the scientific advisory groups that I worked on almost it became a catchphrase whenever someone presented something, they finished by saying, tell me why I'm wrong.Adam Kucharski (40:14):And if you've got a variant that's more transmissible, I don't want to be right about that really. And it is something that is quite hard to do and I found it is particularly for something that's quite high pressure, trying to get a policymaker or someone to write even just non-publicly by themselves, write down what you think's going to happen or write down what would convince you that you are wrong about something. I think particularly on contentious issues where someone's got perhaps a lot of public persona wrapped up in something that's really hard to do, but I think it's those kind of elements that distinguish between getting sucked into a conspiracy theory and really seeking out evidence that supports it and trying to just get your theory stronger and stronger and actually seeking out things that might overturn your belief about the world. And it's often those things that we don't want overturned. I think those are the views that we all have politically or in other ways, and that's often where the problems lie.Eric Topol (41:11):Yeah, I think this is perhaps one of, if not the most essential part here is that to try to deal with the different views. We have biases as you emphasized throughout, but if you can use these different types of proof to have a sound discussion, conversation, refutation whereby you don't summarily dismiss another view which may be skewed and maybe spurious or just absolutely wrong, maybe fabricated whatever, but did you can engage and say, here's why these are my proof points, or this is why there's some extent of certainty you can have regarding this view of the data. I think this is so fundamental because unfortunately as we saw during the pandemic, the strident minority, which were the anti-science, anti-vaxxers, they were summarily dismissed as being kooks and adopting conspiracy theories without the right engagement and the right debates. And I think this might've helped along the way, no less the fact that a lot of scientists didn't really want to engage in the first place and adopt this methodical proof that you've advocated in the book so many different ways to support a hypothesis or an assertion. Now, we've covered a lot here, Adam. Have I missed some central parts of the book and the effort because it's really quite extraordinary. I know it's your third book, but it's certainly a standout and it certainly it's a standout not just for your books, but books on this topic.Adam Kucharski (43:13):Thanks. And it's much appreciated. It was not an easy book to write. I think at times, I kind of wondered if I should have taken on the topic and I think a core thing, your last point speaks to that. I think a core thing is that gap often between what convinces us and what convinces someone else. I think it's often very tempting as a scientist to say the evidence is clear or the science has proved this. But even on something like the vaccines, you do get the loud minority who perhaps think they're putting microchips in people and outlandish views, but you actually get a lot more people who might just have some skepticism of pharmaceutical companies or they might have, my wife was pregnant actually at the time during Covid and we waited up because there wasn't much data on pregnancy and the vaccine. And I think it's just finding what is convincing. Is it having more studies from other countries? Is it understanding more about the biology? Is it understanding how you evaluate some of those safety signals? And I think that's just really important to not just think what convinces us and it's going to be obvious to other people, but actually think where are they coming from? Because ultimately having proof isn't that good unless it leads to the action that can make lives better.Eric Topol (44:24):Yeah. Well, look, you've inculcated my mind with this book, Adam, called Proof. Anytime I think of the word proof, I'm going to be thinking about you. So thank you. Thanks for taking the time to have a conversation about your book, your work, and I know we're going to count on you for the astute mathematics and analysis of outbreaks in the future, which we will see unfortunately. We are seeing now, in fact already in this country with measles and whatnot. So thank you and we'll continue to follow your great work.**************************************Thanks for listening, watching or reading this Ground Truths podcast/post.If you found this interesting please share it!That makes the work involved in putting these together especially worthwhile.I'm also appreciative for your subscribing to Ground Truths. All content —its newsletters, analyses, and podcasts—is free, open-access. I'm fortunate to get help from my producer Jessica Nguyen and Sinjun Balabanoff for audio/video tech support to pull these podcasts together for Scripps Research.Paid subscriptions are voluntary and all proceeds from them go to support Scripps Research. They do allow for posting comments and questions, which I do my best to respond to. Please don't hesitate to post comments and give me feedback. Many thanks to those who have contributed—they have greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for the past two years.A bit of an update on SUPER AGERSMy book has been selected as a Next Big Idea Club winner for Season 26 by Adam Grant, Malcolm Gladwell, Susan Cain, and Daniel Pink. This club has spotlighted the most groundbreaking nonfiction books for over a decade. As a winning title, my book will be shipped to thousands of thoughtful readers like you, featured alongside a reading guide, a "Book Bite," Next Big Idea Podcast episode as well as a live virtual Q&A with me in the club's vibrant online community. If you're interested in joining the club, here's a promo code SEASON26 for 20% off at the website. SUPER AGERS reached #3 for all books on Amazon this week. This was in part related to the segment on the book on the TODAY SHOW which you can see here. Also at Amazon there is a remarkable sale on the hardcover book for $10.l0 at the moment for up to 4 copies. Not sure how long it will last or what prompted it.The journalist Paul von Zielbauer has a Substack “Aging With Strength” and did an extensive interview with me on the biology of aging and how we can prevent the major age-related diseases. Here's the link. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

"Older adults have this special clarity about who they are and what they want, which is incredibly inspiring," says Dr. Julia Hiner, explaining, in part, why she loves her work as a geriatrician in Houston, Texas. She also enjoys the challenge of the medical complexity these patients present and the opportunity it creates to see the patient as a whole person. In fact, as you'll hear in this upbeat conversation with Raise the Line host Lindsey Smith, there's almost nothing about geriatrics that Dr. Hiner does not enjoy, which explains her passion for teaching the subject at McGovern Medical School at the University of Texas Health Science Center in Houston and trying to convince more students to pursue it as their specialty.  The need is great, given that there are only 8,000 geriatricians in the US despite a rapidly growing senior population. Tune in to learn why Dr. Hiner thinks clinicians avoid the field and the steps that can be taken to improve the situation, including requiring courses in geriatrics. You'll also learn about the importance of capacity assessments, the troubling, and under-reported, problem of elder mistreatment, ageism among health professionals and much more in this super informative episode. Mentioned in this episode:University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston McGovern Medical School  If you like this podcast, please share it on your social channels. You can also subscribe to the series and check out all of our episodes at www.osmosis.org/raisethelinepodcast

Bruce the Bat Dog ‘swings' by Studio 1A with trainer, Josh Snyder to spread paw-sitivity – and love for Dylan. Also, NYT best-selling author Dr. Eric Topol delves into the science behind long, healthy living in new book ‘Super Agers.' Plus, Luna Blaise dishes on intense filming and muaythai boxing classes for ‘Jurassic World: Rebirth' role. And, 3rd Hour taps into summer plant care with propagation expert and author, Hilton Carter. 

What if we could delay--or even prevent--Alzheimer's, cancer, and heart disease? What if much of what you know about aging is wrong? Listen as cardiologist and author Eric Topol of the Scripps Research Institute talks about his new book Super Agers with EconTalk's Russ Roberts. They discuss why your genes matter less than you think, how your immune system can help prevent cancer and Alzheimer's, and why a simple shingles vaccine could reduce the risk of dementia. From the surprising anti-inflammatory powers of Ozempic to the critical importance of deep sleep for brain detoxification, Topol shares insights that can extend your healthy lifespan.

Ever noticed how some people get to their 80s and 90s and continue to be healthy and active? They spend their days playing mahjong, driving to lunch, learning shuffle dancing, and practicing Portuguese. Those are “super agers,” seniors who stay fit well into old age. How do they do it? Is it luck or genetics? In this live broadcast, Hosts Flora Lichtman and Ira Flatow discuss the science of aging with two experts on the topic, cardiologist Eric Topol and neuroscientist Emily Rogalski.Guests:Dr. Eric Topol is an author, practicing cardiologist at the Scripps Clinic, and a genomics professor at the Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, California.Dr. Emily Rogalski is a clinical and cognitive neuroscientist, and the director of the Healthy Aging & Alzheimer's Research Care Center at the University of Chicago.Transcripts for each episode are available within 1-3 days at sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

Americans are unusually overweight and chronically ill compared to similarly rich countries. This episode presents a grand, unified theory for why that's the case. Our food environment has become significantly more calorie-rich and industrialized in the past few decades, sending our obesity rates soaring, our visceral fat levels rising, and our chronic inflammation surging. The result is an astonishing rise in chronic illness in America. That's the bad news. The good news is that GLP-1 drugs, like Ozempic and Zepbound, seem to be astonishingly successful at reversing many of these trends. This episode blends two interviews with Dr. David Kessler and Dr. Eric Topol. Kessler was the commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration under the Bush and Clinton administrations, from 1990 to 1997. He helped lead Operation Warp Speed in its final months. He is the author of the book 'Diet, Drugs, and Dopamine.' Topol is a cardiologist and the founder and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute. He is the author of the book 'Super Agers.' If you have questions, observations, or ideas for future episodes, email us at PlainEnglish@Spotify.com. Host: Derek Thompson Guests: Dr. David Kessler and Dr. Eric Topol Producer: Devon Baroldi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cardiologist, scientist and bestselling author Dr. Eric Topol's new book "Super Agers" distills decades of research on how to make us healthier for longer. Topol says that humanity is on the cusp of developing treatments to help tame cancer, dementia and other chronic diseases… just as political forces in the U.S. are shutting down that research.

Our genes don't really determine how well we'll age in later life — and that's good news. Dr. Eric Topol is executive vice president and a professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research, the largest nonprofit biomedical institute in the United States. He's also a practicing cardiologist, and he joins host Krys Boyd to discuss the study of what he calls the “wellderly” – those people who age to 80 without chronic disease – and the findings that he says can help us all reach that milestone. His book is “Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.”  Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

How could Apple mount a counterattack against Trump and his tariffs? Bradley lays out a battle plan for the tech giant that revives the uncompromising tenacity of founder Steve Jobs — though it will almost certainly never happen. Plus, he updates his Non-Religious Ten Commandments for Kids, explains why attending the Indianapolis 500 restored his faith in America, and plugs Eric Topol's new book, Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.This episode was taped at P&T Knitwear at 180 Orchard Street — New York City's only free podcast recording studio.Send us an email with your thoughts on today's episode: info@firewall.media.Subscribe to Bradley's weekly newsletter and follow Bradley on Linkedin + Substack + YouTube.

What if we stopped trying to cure disease and started preventing it instead? In this episode, Eric Topol, founder and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute and a cardiologist, scientist, and author, joins a16z general partner Vijay Pande to unpack the future of aging, prevention, and precision health—as explored in Eric's new book, Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.Together, they discuss AI-driven risk prediction and next-gen immunotherapies — a roadmap for how we could eliminate age-related diseases before they begin. From the transformative potential of GLP-1 drugs to organ-specific aging clocks, this episode is about the innovations with the potential to expand healthspan, not just lifespan.Learn more about a16z Bio+HealthLearn more about & Subscribe to Raising HealthFind a16z Bio+Health on LinkedInFind a16z Bio+Health on X

Can you maintain good health into your 80s and beyond? Cardiologist Dr. Eric Topol says yes. He joins Dr. Sanjay Gupta explain why preventing the onset of major diseases is key to extending your life and health-span. And he shares the new screening tools that might help us do it.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Eric Topol (Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity) is a cardiologist, researcher, and author. Eric returns to the Armchair Expert to discuss being Monica's epilepsy consultant after their early interview, recent findings suggesting that AI aids doctors in providing better care, and an intense gag order suppressing getting a detrimental drug taken off the market. Eric and Dax talk about hospital beds that can monitor people as they sleep, no one having yet done a healthy aging study of genomics, and the true anecdote that inspired him to write his new book. Eric explains creating a segue to effectively prevent diseases we never could before, how Viagra was initially a failed blood pressure medication, and why despite troubling trends in diseases he remains optimistic about the future of aging.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Newt talks with Dr. Eric Topol about his new book, "Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity." They discuss the revolution in human longevity driven by medical breakthroughs, highlighting the importance of addressing chronic diseases like diabetes, obesity, heart disease, cancer, and neurodegeneration earlier in life. Dr. Topol emphasizes a broader definition of a healthy lifestyle, incorporating factors such as pollution, loneliness, and social connection. He advocates for personalized nutrition over a one-size-fits-all approach and warns against the dangers of ultra-processed foods, which contribute to inflammation and age-related diseases. Their conversation also addresses the role of artificial intelligence in transforming healthcare from a reactive system to one focused on prevention, utilizing AI to assess individual risks and promote healthy aging. Dr. Topol discusses the significance of deep sleep, nature exposure, and social interactions in maintaining mental and physical health. Their discussion concludes with a call to action for a healthcare revolution, prioritizing prevention and lifestyle changes to extend health span and reduce healthcare costs.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

American healthcare is in crisis—but what if we could change the system by preventing disease before it starts?In this episode of the a16z Podcast, general partner Vijay Pande sits down with Dr. Eric Topol, founder and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute and one of the most cited researchers in medicine, to explore the cutting edge of preventive healthcare and longevity science.Drawing from his new book Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Path to Longevity, Topol breaks down why understanding the biology of aging—not reversing it—is the key to preventing the “Big Three” age-related diseases: cancer, cardiovascular disease, and neurodegenerative conditions. The conversation spans AI-powered risk prediction, organ clocks, polygenic risk scores, GLP-1s, and the cultural and economic shifts required to move from a “sick care” system to one rooted in precision prevention and extended healthspan.If you've ever wondered how data, personalized medicine, and AI can add seven healthy years to your life—and what it will take to bring those benefits to everyone—this episode is for you. Resources: Find Eric on X: https://x.com/erictopolFind Vijay on X: https://x.com/vijaypande Stay Updated: Let us know what you think: https://ratethispodcast.com/a16zFind a16z on Twitter: https://twitter.com/a16zFind a16z on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/a16zSubscribe on your favorite podcast app: https://a16z.simplecast.com/Follow our host: https://twitter.com/stephsmithioPlease note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. a16z and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures.

What if the second half of life could be just as healthy, active, and fulfilling as the first? Drawing on the latest science, world-renowned cardiologist and researcher Dr. Eric Topol challenges outdated ideas about aging and reveals how factors like exercise, sleep, social connection and cutting-edge AI tools can help us extend not just our lifespan—but our healthspan. Dr. Topol joins The Excerpt to share insights from his new book "Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity."Episode Transcript available hereSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Want to live a healthier, longer life? The science of longevity is teaching us how to take steps in our twenties, thirties, and forties, to stay healthier into our old age. In today's episode, I'm speaking with longevity scientist Dr. Eric Topol about how to reduce inflammation to live a happier, healthier, and longer life.  Many of us will develop chronic diseases as we age, and these diseases can dramatically reduce our quality of life and end our lives early. These diseases are often preventable. Dr. Eric Topol and I discuss the steps you can start taking today to reduce your inflammation for disease prevention and longevity. 2:20 Why Should We Want to Live Longer? 7:44 Assessing Biological Age 11:46 The Blue Zones Myth 12:32 Slowing Rapid Aging 24:11 Reducing Your Inflammation  33:30 The Gut Microbiome & Your Immune System 38:07 GLP-1s and Obesity 47:09 Can You Be Healthy At Any Size? 53:35 Diets and Longevity 55:53 Caffeine and Healthspan  1:00:00 Heart Disease Prevention 1:07:17 Why Are Young People Getting Cancer? For more from Dr. Eric Topol, find him on Instagram @EricTopol1 or online at www.drerictopol.com. Subscribe to his Substack, Ground Truths, or purchase his book Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.  Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Order Liz's book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to www.facebook.com/groups/thelizmoodypodcast. Connect with Liz on Instagram @lizmoody or online at www.lizmoody.com. Subscribe to the substack by visiting https://lizmoody.substack.com/welcome. This episode is sponsored by: LMNT: go to DrinkLMNT.com/LizMoody to get a free LMNT sample pack with any order. AG1: visit drinkag1.com/lizmoody and get your FREE welcome kit, Vitamin D, and 5 travel packs today. Pique: go to piquelife.com/LIZMOODY for up to 20% off plus a special gift. Osea: get 10% off your first order at oseamalibu.com with code LIZMOODY10. Maui Nui: head to mauinuivenison.com/LIZ to secure your access to a limited collection of Liz's favorite nutrient-dense wildly delicious meat cuts and products. Wildgrain: go to Wildgrain.com/LIZMOODY for $30 off the first box - PLUS a free item in every box. The Liz Moody Podcast cover art by Zack. The Liz Moody Podcast music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast.  This podcast and website represents the opinions of Liz Moody and her guests to the show. The content here should not be taken as medical advice. The content here is for information purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions. The Liz Moody Podcast Episode 327. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

While promises of extending the human lifespan to 125 and beyond are premature, recent breakthroughs in the early detection of killer diseases of the major organs and brain offer a healthier old age – especially when paired with behavioral changes that Dr Topol calls “Lifestyle+.”

Medical science is advancing at an astonishing rate. Today we talk with leading expert Eric Topol about two aspects of this story. First, the use of artificial intelligence in medicine, especially in diagnostics. This is an area that is a perfect match between an important question and the capabilities of machine learning, to the point where AI can out-perform human doctors. And second, our understanding of aging and what to do about it. Eric even gives some actionable advice on how to live more healthily into our golden years.Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2025/05/05/episode-313-eric-topol-on-the-changing-face-of-medicine-and-aging/Support Mindscape on Patreon.Eric Topol received and M.D. from the University of Rochester. He is currently the Gary and Mary West Chair of Innovative Medicine in the Department of Translational Medicine at Scripps Research. He is also the Founder, Scripps Research Translational Institute, and Senior Consultant, Scripps Clinic, Division of Cardiovascular Diseases. Among his awards are the Hutchinson Medal from the University of Rochester and membership in the National Academy of Sciences. His books include Deep Medicine: How Artificial Intelligence Can Make Healthcare Human Again, and Super Agers: An Evidence-Based Approach to Longevity.Web siteScripps web pageGoogle Scholar publicationsWikipediaSubstackBlueskySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today's episode could change (or save) your life. It's a must-listen. You'll hear from the world's leading longevity doctor about the simple, proven changes that will help you live longer, feel better, and prevent diseases like cancer, heart disease, and dementia. Today, Mel sits down with one of the world's most respected scientists, Dr. Eric Topol — a pioneering cardiologist, longevity researcher, and one of the top 10 most cited medical researchers alive today — to reveal the real, evidence-based approach to longevity. This is the science and art of living better, longer. Forget the trendy anti-aging supplements, infusions, and miracle cures: Dr. Topol is here to give you the truth on exactly what the science says about how to reverse the biological age of your organs, add up to a decade of healthy years to your life, and avoid the biggest killers we all fear. You'll learn: -The #1 free intervention proven to slow aging -The three everyday habits that are aging you faster (and how to fix them) -How to exercise and eat for optimal health and longevity -The truth about supplements, IV drips, and anti-aging clinics -Why loneliness is as dangerous to your health as smoking -How exercise can be more effective than antidepressants -The breakthrough blood tests and tools that could predict — and prevent — diseases decades before they happen This conversation is full of science and hope, because as Dr. Topol says: “It has never been a more exciting time in medicine.” Whether you want to prevent disease, feel better, or just live a longer, healthier life, this episode will give you the real plan for how to do it. If you love someone, send them this episode. It could save their life. For more resources, click here for the podcast episode. If you liked this episode, and you'll love listening to this one next: Look, Feel, & Stay Young Forever: #1 Orthopedic Surgeon's Proven ProtocolConnect with Mel:  Get Mel's #1 bestselling book, The Let Them TheoryWatch the episodes on YouTubeFollow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast InstagramMel's TikTok Sign up for Mel's personal letter Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-freeDisclaimer