Podcasts about storythings

This is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! Featuring Jenai Auman, author of the recently released book Othered. We'll Cover: Question to ask yourself before going public with your storyThings to consider before going publicTips to mitigate your riskHOW to prepare IF you get suedWhat to expect from lawyersAnd More* Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! * Read this article, written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do. Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here. Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices.Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden's newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing's upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain.Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You.She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that.I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture.So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025. Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in theIt's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing. So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today.We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse.So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward.She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman Katherine: Hello, Janai. Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this. Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit.It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself. As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book. Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconverted altogether, I make space for the deconverted, and but also, I wrote this space reorienting, or I wrote the book reorienting, like, how I posture myself to Like the stories in the Bible and I weave in personal narrative.So this is what I experienced. How does that, how is that at all in accord with scripture? How, and it isn't [00:06:00] a lot of what I experienced while working on staff at a church, one of those churches that are often in those podcasts where they talk about the main guy who started the affiliation yelling at people.Like, I think people, I was a part of a very high control, very toxic masculinity church planting network. And I was ostracized and kicked out essentially othered in from my church because I wouldn't, I wouldn't shut up and I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop advocating for myself. And so I wrote othered.To tell my story and to essentially provide a road map to this is why I still am a Christian. I kind of detangled my experience of that space from the harm I experienced. And I have found a renewed relationship in God. However, it doesn't land per like I'm not in a church today. I'm not and some people, they are so mad that I'm not in a church today.Which, that's like a whole other thing. And then other people are going to be mad that Katherine: you still identify as a [00:07:00] Christian. Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. Like I'm not in a church. I still identify as a Christian. I'm in seminary. So that makes it like even kookier for people. And, and so I sit in a weird place where even as I tell my story, sometimes I still feel very othered because I haven't landed where other people wanted me to land.But that's kind of the whole point. Like I want people to feel free to land wherever, even my, like, I don't mention my husband very often, but even my husband has landed somewhere different in faith. And that's like much more toward deconversion. And so I hold space for a lot of different people. So anyway, I wrote other, I share, it's not a memoir.So it doesn't tell even people get mad whenever I say, I don't say everything that happened in the book, and I think we're going to talk about all of that and maybe why I didn't do that. A lot of that is just to protect myself. I think a lot of people want that, though, and they don't understand the risk that goes into telling everything like in a memoir style.I just use [00:08:00] pieces of the story. Like, my story is not up for debate. But I just used these instances, instances and moments to say, here's where something in me fractured and I had to find my way back to myself again. So yeah, I'm really glad to share. Katherine: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sort of setting things up and just kind of letting folks know like this is where I have landed.Yeah, I had space for other people for where they have landed. I think that's really helpful because I think a lot of folks from evangelicalism will, like, come on and talk about you know, what they believe. And there is this, like, very subtle agenda of, like, I want you to believe the same thing as me which comes straight out of, These toxic evangelical cultures of like, we can't interact with you unless you believe the same thing.And so I really appreciate that. You've set it up that way and that you have written the book that way pertaining to the subject that we're going to [00:09:00] discuss today. What did you, what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put it on all of the other public writing that you have written. You may already know this, but the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.And now back to the show. Katherine: what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put [00:10:00] it on all of the other public writing that you have written.Jenai: Yeah. Well, it was, I can imagine cause there was a lot of back and forth between me and the leadership of the church of like, what was wrong, what wasn't wrong. And, and I was watching them and this is probably something you, you resonate with also, but like watching them make it make sense in their heads, like take this really.dumb argument that they've made and they've kind of loaded it with a lot of Christian speak to somehow justify like whatever conclusion that they came to. So in short, I was terminated from my position. They never used the word terminated though. They always used transition out. That was kind of a part of the The Christian speak, you know, yes, it made it sound like more polite to them as if what they weren't what they were doing to me was not impolite or like rude or loving.They were like, Oh, we're just transitioning her out. We're just like jet [00:11:00] gently pushing her out and telling her to shut the hell up. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a you're allowed to pass. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: And so Yeah, I was like, you use these grace laced words and so I kind of started fighting back with no, you're not supposed to do this isn't so in many ways the book and the book's not an argument.It's not formatted as an argument. It is essentially kind of how I kept fighting back. And I don't even say this in the book. It's it was my resistance and how my resistance played out over the course of time Using the very scriptures that they were trying to use against me and I was saying no, no, no, no, no Like Katherine: yeah, Jenai: you know I think a big a big banner scripture and it's not in the book at all Ezekiel 34 like you are feeding on the sheep I am a sheep that was in your care and the ways in which I was treated wasn't okay And you're supposed to hear my voice And you didn't just not hear me.You like silenced me. And [00:12:00] so writing the book was pivotal for me because I think many other people are having to deal with that too. That doublespeak, duplicitousness. And they don't know how to combat it. And for whatever reason, maybe it's my stubborn, Filipina nature or maybe it's a little bit of like Texas stubborn in me as well, but I was like you You will not overpower me.You have done everything to like push me out, but I I will Like there was something stubborn in me that was like, I will dig down. Cause I know something in this is not right. And I'm going to keep speaking up. So yeah, I thought it was super pivotal to give people language. And I think some of that says that in my bio, like I want to provide people with language.I don't know what it is. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I want to give them language to say, this is what my resistance looks like, and Katherine: I Jenai: hope and healing, I think healing and resistance are both and and I think this is what you can envision for yourself also. Katherine: Right. I love that healing and resistance are both [00:13:00] and and for whatever reason that someone chooses to go public with their story.Part of that reason could just could be the healing reason like that. That is that feels important to me as a part of my healing. I need this story to be public. It could be just to teach people as you, as you chose to do just to sort of show people. Here are. other ways to interpret these things that these power hoarders are just, you know, funneling at you and there's so many of them and they're so powerful and they're so convincing and they're so nice when they say it, it's really hard to, to fight back even just in our own minds.So there's so many reasons why someone feels that it's important. to go public with their story. And what we're going to talk about today, folks, is how to protect yourself if you decide to go [00:14:00] public with your story. Disclaimer at the very beginning. Neither Janai nor I are legal counsel, we are not lawyers, we have life experience that we are going to share, we are going to give recommendations, but we encourage everyone to do your own research, look into this yourself, know what the risks are because there are risks.When you put your story of being abused in public and make the best wise decision for you and your health and where you are in your story. So with that disclaimer, we're going to kind of talk about two different parts in this episode. One, we're just going to talk about ways that you can safely tell your story that might mitigate your opportunities or the potential risk of being sued by someone.Yeah. That said. Someone can file a civil lawsuit for anything. They don't have to have corroborating evidence or anything. [00:15:00] They can make up a total lie to file a civil lawsuit. All they need is Money, really, that's really the only thing that they need. And so we're never going to be able to completely eliminate the risk for being sued, but there are some things that we have learned on our journeys that can help us navigate and protect ourselves in the event that that actually happens.So that's going to be the part two of this episode. jumping right in. If you have some things that you have learned in your process about ways to phrase things, how to phrase things, things that you learned while writing your book of, okay, I can't say that, but I can say this, would love to hear just a rundown of some stuff that you have learned in your process of telling your story publicly.Jenai: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say sometimes I share parts of my story on Instagram and no [00:16:00] one's really policing what I say on Instagram. But there was much more kind of like being cautious and careful in a publication, like a book. And so just before I wrote. Or finished the manuscript of Othered. I think it was Prince Harry's memoir.Yeah, his memoir came out. And I, and I was like, I want to read that. And I just read it before even finishing the manuscript. Just because I wanted to see, how does he tell this? And not have the power of the throne come down at him. And if anyone, I began paying attention, I mean the story is wild, but also began paying attention to how he told it, or how the ghost writer was telling it for him.And I don't know if anyone else has read it, but there's kind of like, sometimes you read like, him saying, did this happen? He's like self doubting. Yes. In, in the book. Did you pick up on that also? Huh. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like he was like, I, am I remembering this correctly? Almost as [00:17:00] if like, you can't come after me.I'm telling you that it's just my memory. It's just Katherine: memory. Jenai: So I learned that it is different to write something as 100 percent fact, even though there are things in my book that were 100 percent fact. This is what happened, but because I didn't have evidence or I didn't have like a screenshot or a recording of the meeting to say this is 100 percent fact, I had to say.And this is such, it's weaker. It makes for weaker writing, but it protects you more. I had to say, I remember this person saying, Katherine: yeah. Jenai: Whereas before I had it written in dialogue, like so and so said this to me, and I responded in this way, and they said, we need this corroborated, or we need evidence, or you need to re write it and say, I remember.this happening. I remember this happening. And I thought, man, like, it kind of sucks a little bit. It sucks the, like the, the wind from your sails. But I remember that being a [00:18:00] pivotal a pivotal point in like, Oh, then there were some things I do. And I, I remember, I don't know if anyone's in the middle of anything.And I'm in a one party state, meaning as long as one party in the conversation consents to a recording. You can record the conversation. And so long as I was a party, I, I, I was like, I give myself consent to record this conversation, something in my gut before I even left my position, something in my gut said, Start recording these conversations.And so I did. You're going to have to look up your own local laws to see if you're a one party or a two party state. Sometimes you need consent from everyone in the meeting before you can record. I know California is like that and maybe others. Yeah. And so I remember hitting record. And feeling a little bit bad about that.I'm like, this is, this is, this seems weird and creepy on my part at the time, but there was something in my gut [00:19:00] that was telling me, record this conversation. And I remember texting a fellow coworker who was also experiencing the same like mess that I was. And I texted her and I said, is it wrong of me to record this conversation?And she goes, Oh my gosh, yes. And I thought it was wrong. Yes. She, even she like, even in who, And even she couldn't, cause it feels that creepy. Yeah. Like even the people who are in it with you might think, oh, this isn't gracious of you. But I didn't listen to her and I thought I was going to keep recording.And now, like if I talk to her now. And I told her, Hey, remember when you told me I should stop recording? I didn't, she would probably say, I'm so glad you didn't listen to me. Right. I'm so glad you just kept doing it. And so I, I did have evidence. I did have evidence. I had screenshots. Instagram messages, or not Instagram, my goodness.IPhone, iMessage. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like they have like these settings where it says, you know, delete my messages after a month, delete 'em after a year or whatever. I [00:20:00] turn that feature off, so I have a ton of like, storage on my phone from all my stored messages, but that's really so that I have all the evidence.And so I took screenshots. Yeah. And I put all of that in a folder to send off. For those that don't know, when you read a, when you write a book, they usually do what's called a permissions read. Meaning if you added stories of other people your editor will go through and read to see who do you need permission from.And they'll give you like a form to send to that friend who says, I give permission for this story to be in the book. And for me, I thought, well, I don't know how this is going to work. I'm not going to get permission from anyone to tell the story. Katherine: Yeah, Jenai: and they emailed me back and they were like, congratulations, you don't need to get permission.However, we do need to do a corroboration read or a legal read of the book, and this is what our lawyer has flagged as like comments in the document for like, this is where you need [00:21:00] corroboration or change the word or evidence and Yeah, so that's kind of like an overview of the process. Katherine: And corroboration is another person saying, yes, that.Yes, Jenai: yes, that happened. Even, even though you don't have evidence, if someone else can say, yes, this happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I know that that is exactly how that it played out. They are kind of like your witness. It is not evidence. It's your witness. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And that is. For them and for you in the event that you do get sued.We already have this ready, we have to go, we have someone backing this up, we have someone that has verified that this is true for that again doesn't necessarily prevent the lawsuit from happening, but it is stuff that can just protect you in the event. Some other things that are helpful that you are.Probably alluding to saying things like allegedly, or it is my opinion [00:22:00] appeared to me that X, Y said this, or it seemed as if, and that feels so weird saying that when it's like your story and it happened to you, but it's also just kind of acknowledging. A human limitation. So just kind of putting it in that category.And, and memory memory does change over time. It doesn't mean that it wasn't 100 percent true, but it we're just we're just kind of acknowledging human beings have limitations and I am a human being, and it's and it's protection. It's okay to protect yourself. You are not being dishonest, but it is, it does feel so weird, especially when we come out of these environments where we have been silenced and our story and our narrative gets taken by other people and twisted and reframed.We just want to say it like this happened and this person was so horrible, awful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there are [00:23:00] spaces to do that. And. Maybe write the first draft with like every expletive you ever wanted to use, get it all out and then go back. and adjust it for public consumption. Maybe wait a few days.And so yes, those emotions need to be felt. Those emotions need to be gotten out and you also want to protect yourself. So both of those things can happen. And the importance of just the reality that the story is out there and there may be some things that just feel a little weird to say them a certain way, but it has a story out there.How do you navigate that of like, this wasn't the most ideal way to write this but it was the safest way to write this. How do you navigate that experience? Jenai: Yeah. I remember In, I think it's in the first chapter of the book, I am certain it's in the first chapter of the book, because I start the book with a story [00:24:00] of my first day of work that started with my executive director yelling Or, you know, whatever your definition of, yeah, I think it was yelling I called it not yelling, but he was raising his voice because, you know, there is no, I can't track the decibel level of what he's saying, and like, I don't want that to be a whole argument, but even that, I kind of cushioned and said, He wasn't yelling, but he was raising his voice to the degree that everyone in the building could hear him.You know what I mean? Katherine: Yeah, and so people are going to be like, he was yelling. Jenai: Yeah, he was yelling. And so it's subversive little things like that. And so. I, I kind of cushioned where I could, but then later in the chapter when I, my first chapter is kind of about giving people terms, because people use spiritual abuse in different ways, or church hurt in different ways, and so I kind of tracked with like, this is how I'm using them for the book.So I tell that [00:25:00] story, and then I share kind of my definition of these terms, and because I put some cushion in the story later when I talk about that experience, when I name what happened in that experience, I say, this was spiritually abusive. And I just say it. I felt like I had the confidence to say it there, because I had the allegedly in the cushion.I didn't, I didn't have to write this was a, I alleged that this was spiritual abuse. I could just say it with punch and power later in the chapter. And so there are kind of subversive ways like that, that you as a writer, or even if you tell your story because I know some people might be Not everyone's writing, some people are podcasters, some people are sharing their stories in different ways and so there are there are subversive ways to tell the truth, such that you are clever, and you can protect yourself as well.There's something, some verse in Matthew that's like, you know, be as wise as a serpent. But be as gentle as a dove [00:26:00] and I think I do that in the book like I had to navigate this I wanted the book to be compassionate, but I also wanted to be clever and I wanted to show like I could still tell my story and so yeah, there's places you can put cushion when you need to.And then if you're, if you're clever with your writing, the imagery and or the, you know, the imagination of the reader will fill in the gaps. Thanks. Yeah, Katherine: but then you are still protected. Jenai: Yeah. Katherine: Another, another thing that feels weird is when we're writing about someone who's not a public figure changing names, changing physical identifiers, that also feels super weird.Cause we're like, we just want them to know that it was this person. But the reality is that most people don't know that person. And so thinking of it as a wider. public facing thing rather than the 5, 10, 20, 100, or a thousand people within that space who would know who that is. And that vindication that we [00:27:00] would get from making it obvious who the person is versus protecting ourselves and, and just changing their name, changing physical identifiers.That's different if it is a public figure. When it's a public figure, you can phrase it. a way to phrase it is, or a way to, to angle it or approach it is to write it as if it is for the public good. Like, Hey, a lot of people are asking me about this person. And so I'm sharing this story so that the public will know that this happened, or it isn't, it is important to me that people know that this, you know, public figure.You know, Robbie Zacharias is a predator, you know, like, like stuff like that, where you are, you are saying you're doing it for the public good. And in essence, you are. So that is another way where they, again, they can still see you for [00:28:00] defamation and libel, all of the things. But when you're approaching it as I'm doing this for the, like, Oh, I'm just doing this for the public.And that's what, that's what journalists do. Like they, that's why they write, like, you know, Or that's the ethics that they are supposed to follow of this is important information. This is truth that the public needs to be aware of. And so that's another angle to approach it as and even a way to kind of approach the story as a, as a whole, as you, you did of It's important that people know there's a different way to interpret these verses and making sure that the public knows that there are other ways to say this.And that's another angle. And Jenai: that's why I actually don't use names or even fake names at all in my book. And I think that's a reason why I think people approach it. They're like, this is Jani's story. And I was like, this is really the story of my resistance. It's not the [00:29:00] story of like everything that happened.And so I think that might, like, you know, I think people want to hear like the nitty gritty and I. I would have had to use so much more mental and emotional labor if I was telling stories of how they allegedly kept using my social security number for their church credit card 18 months after I was fired.You know, like, I, I would have to, like, it would take so long. So much more mental labor for me to talk about, like how financial fraud came about or how, how all these other things happened and changing names. And so that's why I was like, I can't write a memoir. I'm not a memoirist. Katherine: Mm-Hmm, . Jenai: But I can tell my story of my resistance and in doing it, framing it that way, I could tell pieces of my story and then not use names.And so I say things like executive director. Yeah, or a senior pastor or lead pastor. And so the people who [00:30:00] are there who read the book will know exactly who I'm talking about. And another way that I've protected myself, and I don't know if a lot of people know this, is that I actually helped plant the church.And what I mean, what I say, what I mean when I say that is, In Texas, when you file for a non profit or corporate, a non profit corporation status with our state, you have to have three signing directors to kind of legalize this organization with, you know, the Austin. the state capitol. And I was one of the signers.So there, it was me and two other guys as signing directors that that stuff is open access. So if you go and Google that stuff, you find my name connected to that church. One way that I've protected myself is I don't write under my full name, Jani Amen. That's my first and my middle name. And When you, I mean, they could still probably find, if someone digs enough, [00:31:00] they can find it.But I can say I put, like, measures in place to not be connected. I don't name the church, that's another thing. I don't talk about even the neighborhood that it was in in the book. So people can't geographically locate it. So, in many ways, I have hemmed myself in from further harm that they could do, and I've just, I've provided cushion in other ways, not just in the book, but in how I approach telling my story, and a pen name, that's not deceptive to readers, that's like, pen names Yeah, pen names are, yeah, it's like industry standard people I mean, that's happened, pen names have happened for a long time.And so I didn't, I'm still writing under my genuine names. I'm just writing under my first and my middle name. Which is what a lot of people do. So yeah, that was just another way I protected myself. Katherine: Yeah. And then another [00:32:00] small detail that could play a role is the names of states lawsuits are, are usually organized by a state and it's called jurisdiction. So if it's if it's possible to remove even state identifiers and just use the area of the country or change the state or whatever, then that just that ties things up. Legally within the context of of a lawsuit and can make it like if it's outside of the, the person who did the wrong, allegedly did the wrong outside of their state and they have to sue across state lines or, or something like that.And, and there's no, indication that it actually happened within the state, within the writing then that can just make it a little bit trickier to file a lawsuit and to, to get it [00:33:00] through. And so it just makes it a little bit more challenging. So those are just some other things to consider as you're, as you're writing.I know when I write about my family, I always say the South. I never say the state. I always say the South. I've started doing very recently. And even if people ask me like in person where I grew up, I just say the South and they'll be like, where? And I was like, I just say the South. Just cause I don't want that connection to a specific state for those jurisdiction reasons.Another fun fact tidbit that is not legal advice. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash [00:34:00] support.Katherine: All right. Anything more we want to say about that before we jump into the experience of. working with lawyers and what what might happen on the other side of a lawsuit. Jenai: No, I, I think that kind of tidies up the I will say I have a very unique name.Not every, if you're like a Rachel Smith, You know, you probably have, if someone Googles you they're gonna find so many other Rachel Smiths. And so with the pen name thing, I don't want anyone to freak out or feel like they have to change their name, especially if your name means a lot to you. So please, I just want to be like really sensitive to that.As a Jani Amon, I, you know, or just a Jani in general, they're going to find me. I'm going to be on page one of the Google there, there are more of us than I realize, but the, there aren't as many who are public on the internet. And so, yeah, I would say that's the only thing I can say a Houston church and everyone's like Katherine: Yeah. We'll find you. People find you. And I mean, that is something that you can do. It's not, you know, [00:35:00] It's a it's an option for for protection using using the the pen name.And I think, as you said, if it's. very intentional that we're not trying to like go after this person and take them down. It, it helps. Those are just little things that can help. As we jump into talking about the bum, bum, bum, bum, what if you do get sued? Let's talk about some ways that We can protect ourselves in the event that that happens.It is not uncommon and just want to let folks know from where I sit in the work that I do, I am seeing, if you're talking about the spiritual abuse space and going public about abuse that pastors have done or denominations or whatever, I am watching pastors and denominations and organizations become more litigious.They are, they are fighting back. By filing civil suits. [00:36:00] Now it is my opinion. We need to also be fighting back and filing civil suits. But when you've been abused, a lot of times you don't want to do that. And that is it's over for you. You are moving on and health and you do not want to interact with that person anymore.But the, the increase of lawsuits and civil suits from. Pastors suing folks who have accused them of abuse that is growing and I project is probably going to continue to grow as they fight back and they lose power. So it is not. a unlikely event if you start going public and start talking about specific people especially and specific denominations especially.Very sad, just going to acknowledge that right here that that even needs to be a reality but as you absolutely quoted at the beginning Be Wise is Wise as serpents and gentle as doves and this is just a way to be [00:37:00] real wise when we start going public with our stories. Now, one thing to just be aware of, of I don't know that a lot of people know this but you can get Insurance for yourself for things like liable defamation, slander.And if you, I recommend talking to a local broker in your city and just say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I have a podcast or I put a lot of stuff on my website or I'm writing a book and I need coverage. What are your recommendations? The brokerage will do, broker will do the research for you and likely present you with some options of things that you can purchase for your own protection.When you do that, when you have insurance and if these, you know, alleged abusers know that you have insurance, it does increase the likelihood that you're going to get sued. And the reason why is because if you get [00:38:00] sued and you have no money there, you file bankruptcy and they get nothing. If you, if they see you and have insurance, then they are increasing the likelihood that they are going to get money because insurances can just decide.This is, it's more expensive to defend this case than to settle this case and they can make that decision that they're going to settle instead of defend. That's just a nuance of how the system works. It does not mean that you are admitting fault. You never have to admit fault. But if an insurance company is covering you, then they might make that choice on your behalf.They can do that. And lawyers know that and so if you have insurance, it does increase. slightly increase your chance of getting sued. However, the alternative is basically you don't have insurance and then you then not only are going through the horrendous [00:39:00] emotional stress of a lawsuit, you're also having to pay for it.So that is just something to consider. As you are going public with your story and something very simple that you can do to protect yourself. You can add it on to your renter's insurance. You can add it on to your mortgage. I think it's a, if it's something that you do regularly, like for you and I, or for myself forming an LLC, forming a nonprofit so that you have the insurance to cover that specific entity and you do all of the work under that entity.So then you are not on the hook should something happen because it's under that entity. Those are just real weird nuances and something that most people are never going to have to know or be aware of. But for this particular thing of going public about our story of abuse is something for folks to be aware of.Would you like to share about what someone might expect [00:40:00] when, if they have to interact with lawyers? Jenai: Yes. And that was hard. That was hard. I don't remember if we said this during the recording, but lawyers are not. Dental? Yes. They're not trauma informed.They don't really, their concern is, Like winning and not necessarily, I mean, that's kind of like what I feel like with pastors, pastors are so many pastors, not all pastors are concerned about like upping the numbers. And sometimes the spiritual abuse happens because they look at the metrics and not at the people.And in many ways, I kind of felt some of that with like, Katherine: Hey, Jenai: just want to make sure that they win, not necessarily that this person is cared for. That's someone else's job. I will say I do not have a lawyer. I had, I worked with the lawyer, the legal representation with my publisher, so when I, when they did that permissions read, that was [00:41:00] not a permissions read, and they transferred it over to a legal read the editor read through, but then the editor also had the lawyer read through.And the lawyer went through and commented on the document certain things. Sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to see these comments or if they were supposed to scrub them. And I, I, because in reading some of their comments, they're trying to think about how can this writer say this? So that really so that everyone is protected, but sometimes they write it as if the writer did something wrong here and it just lands on you kind of hard.And getting the email that said, you know, we need, we need you to provide corroboration. It felt a lot like, They don't believe me. Katherine: Yeah. You have to prove that this was true. Jenai: Yes. Katherine: Yeah. And Jenai: that I knew it was coming from other people I had spoken with and other writers and authors that I know of. I knew that this was coming, so it didn't [00:42:00] hit me too hard.Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . I Jenai: can imagine that it might if other, other people aren't experiencing that, and I think. Oh, I'm so grateful for my agent. So if someone, if you can work with an agent some people say find whatever agent that you can find. But really my encouragement is if you can land with an agent, not just somebody who will have you, but someone who will have your back.Katherine: Yeah, that Jenai: is pretty pivotal. And she was sensitive enough. She also, that was another thing, all my emails between me and my publisher go to my agent as well. My agent is a part of an agency who has a lawyer at the head. And so he kind of, he's not my agent, but he's connected. And so I, I feel very kept at that particular, like, and held.Katherine: Yeah at Jenai: that agency, but my agent was sensitive enough that she got the email and before I responded to the email Or before I even texted her she texted me I want to say five [00:43:00] minutes after the email hit my inbox and she said I want you to know This doesn't mean that they don't believe you. They're all everyone's just concerned about making sure The book is protected that you're protected.This doesn't mean that they don't believe you and I You I knew that it was just really nice to have someone else tell me that. And I know that depending on, I think self publishing is a totally valid journey especially after going through publishing. So not everyone has an agent, but even if you can get someone in your corner, who's a part of walking through the process with you, even if it's not an agent who can read this stuff with you and tell you the things that Even you yourself know, I know that this means that they don't believe me.Hearing it from another person really does help just take care of like your body, your nervous system. And so that, but it was a very hard thing to read. And then the comments from the lawyer herself were also really. really hard. I think [00:44:00] sometimes some people think it's the men and I'm like, no, not Katherine: really.No, no, no, no, no. It is not. It is not. And they, they, again, as you said, they want to win. And so they are thinking about this from a perspective of like, if we get into a lawsuit, how will we win? What are the things that we need in order to win? And so much of the civil lawsuit there are absolutely situations.I know someone who is suing someone for financial fraud right now and it is a genuine situation in which they should be suing that person, but this can also just be this very capitalistic way for power holders to just be bullies. There aren't a lot of like regulations about like, is this a legitimate reason to sue someone.And so. It's a game. A lot of it's a game. And the, the lawyers, a certain type of person ends up being a lawyer, and they are, they're, they're, they're about strategy and the game, and how do I win this game, and they are [00:45:00] not, thinking you are an abuse survivor who has been extremely traumatized and they're not thinking how is this going to land for you.They also tend to have very little other than just like very high level understanding of like rape is sexual abuse. They don't have a lot of understanding about the nuances of abuse and what exactly is abuse. And so. That when you've already gone through an experience of having to justify and defend yourself and, and convince yourself that this is real and this really happened and, and what you are experiencing and how you are navigating your trauma is real to then have this real life experience of people just like not believing you, even though that's not necessarily the case, but it feels like they don't believe you.It can be very re traumatizing, and so we're just, we're just sharing this to just like, just be aware. Make, make a wise choice of, of this with [00:46:00] awareness. And as Janai said, surround yourself with people, give yourself some good people who are going to be there to support you. Also, something to keep in mind, a civil suit is not a criminal suit.You are not a criminal. You do not commit a crime. It might feel like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. Again, people can sue for any reason whatsoever. They do not have to have any, any corroboration. All they have to do is be a bully and have a lot of money. Jenai: Yeah. I write in other actually, like if people, if people you are calling out someone for misuse of power, they will continue to misuse their power and abuse their power to silence you.And so they're going to be like, oops, my bad. They will keep doing it. They will keep coming after you. And I think really the only way to stop it from happening is you have to find your power back. And, and that can be through a number of things, [00:47:00] whether, like, people can corroborate your story, you've gathered evidence I will say for anyone gathering evidence or in the middle of that process, don't necessarily do everything under, like, if you get something to your work email and that work email is connected to the abusive situation, start forwarding everything to your personal email because they will close that email account eventually and you will lose evidence, that was in my case, I've also, there was a pastor in my story.It's not in the book at all, but who has been trying to meet with me or he has been meeting with me for coffee, trying to reconcile, and I feel safe enough to have these conversations with him and not feel talked down to, or not feel, you know, gaslit. I won't let that happen. But because he has extended an olive branch and has kind of admitted to some of the wrongdoing he's done in the corroboration process, I needed to corroborate that I was given, you know two severance options, and I didn't have that screenshot.It was in, [00:48:00] like, a slide. I have a Slack channel that I'm no longer a part of. It was in my old work email that I never forwarded to my personal email. And so I had to get corroboration for that. And I asked this pastor, I will say lawyer or the lawyer for the publisher, they said, if your husband can corroborate, he is allowed to corroborate for your story.Right. So that was super helpful. And I, but instead of in title, my husband did corroborate for some of the things, but for this severance option, I thought I'm going to ask the pastor, my friend to do this, my former friend to do this because he can use the one that gave me the severance options. And it was really like a, let me see the test of your character, whether you'll do this, and he didn't, he said, Katherine: oh, goodness, he Jenai: said, there's just so much more nuance.And I'm not saying whether or not there is nuance to the situation. And by the way, I reject his nuance. It was total crap. I was just saying, the [00:49:00] corroboration is. Did you or did you not give me two severance options? And he wanted to say, you know, he wanted to say, but this happened, like, and I was like, yeah.And I said, can you do this? Can you confirm this? And he said, no, I won't corroborate for you. And I was like, you dirty liar. I was like, fine. I, I, I wasn't upset. I was just like, okay. Katherine: You showed, you showed your colors. Jenai: Yeah, you are actually Like confirming that you are still in alignment with the character of the person that I knew before.And like my lack of trust with you is validated. Like I can no longer trust. I can't, like my, my gut is telling me the right things. I gave you an opportunity to mend some of that trust and you did not. So I still have it in the book that I was given two severance options because my husband was like, yes, you were given two severance options.And I remember that. And if it ever [00:50:00] goes to court and everyone gets deposed, that's what they're going to say, you know, like you, yeah, Katherine: you have to. Yeah. And exactly. I can cut this from the episode, but was one of the options, Like you have to sign an NDA and you get this? Jenai: No. Okay. There was no NDA.We can keep this in. I was given two severance options. Here's the thing, and this is how pivotal, I was the primary on the bank account. Like my, I could have done anything with the finding. I didn't. But that I, I had the passwords to everything. I was the primary check signer. I had a lot of things that I was responsible for.I had no power over because they, you know, kind of cuffed me in terms of like what did and didn't happen. And I was trying to follow the rules. But because I had the access and the responsibility to maintain everything, they couldn't just get rid of me super quick because they needed that access. And [00:51:00] so my severance options were two weeks notice and two months severance.Or I work for two months and I get another three months severance and I, this was 2020. This is when people are losing their jobs. And I thought I need, I actually asked, I said, can I have more severance? Like, this is, you are my brothers. Yes. You are, you are like, tying my hands behind my back.You have given me no voice and no choice, even though I have consistently told you that this man's harmful. Can I have more severance? They ignored that request. I actually met with somebody who, and I told him, I said, remember you were ignored this request. And he was like, did we? And I said, yes, I remember asking for six months of severance.Because they do whatever they can't have to in their mind to protect their male fragility that they've done something wrong my husband was there, but the severance thing was [00:52:00] really really hard The kicker is is they did eventually get rid of the senior pastor They gave him like nine ten months worth of severance His salary.I, his salary was six figures. My salary was in the fifties. Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I felt like I wasn't asking a lot. A lot. I wasn't asking for a lot. Katherine: Right, exactly. Jenai: They gave him my salary and then some through his severance, like later, and I thought. Man, like, I, whatever, this is obviously, like, here is another instance where you have made a value statement that one person was more valuable than another, and even in sending them away, you wanted to send him away with so much care, and you just freaking threw me off.Yeah. It threw me overboard. So, Katherine: yeah. Oh my gosh. I have heard so many stories [00:53:00] like that of just like, they'll be so stingy with the person who blew the whistle. And then when they, you know, get forced to like, get rid of the pastor because it's just, too much collateral to keep him on because so many people are leaving or for whatever reason and and then they just send him off with like a year of severance and like you know continue to pay his insurance and like all this kind of stuff and you're just like guys yeah it is not an equitable system in any way shape or form Jenai: i would say i probably if i had to venture a guess i will never find a civil suit filed against me because I in gathering evidence and in kind of trusting my gut.They didn't know that I was recording things after they let me go and terminated me. They began a quote unquote internal investigation. And if anyone knows, it's not really that much of an investigation where they investigate themselves, [00:54:00] you know, like, come on, man. But. In these internal investigation talks, I recorded everything, and I was kind of triangulating the information with some members.And I was asking them, what are they telling you? Because this is what I was told. And what are they telling you? And thankfully, some of those what they were telling the members, some of that's recorded in member meetings. And so I was like, okay. One way. I think we mentioned before pastors still feel like they are just leaders in general feel like they have power.That's why they keep coming after you. And then 1 way to prevent that is to get your own power back. Once I revealed to them that I had been recording things. and catching them in their lies. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: They realized, Oh, we can't just tell her one thing and tell the members another thing. Cause I remember, I remember them telling me, you know, pastors on [00:55:00] probation, pastors, this, I recorded that meeting without their, their knowledge, because it's one party consent.And then I heard from the member meeting that Pastor went on stage and he said, they've given me time off. Like he wasn't, he wasn't forthright with I'm on probation. They also gave him the power to tell the story himself. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Which I thought, don't you know? And they were like, we gave him like an opportunity to own.And I was like, no, you didn't. You gave him an opportunity to save face and Katherine: I Jenai: sent them an email. And I said, this is what you've done. This is what I was told. Here is the screen recording. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but there's an app called Loom, where I, I think they might have disabled this feature.This was early days, 2020, when people were figuring out screen recording and all that stuff. But Loom will record, did record my screen. And because I didn't do it through Zoom, it didn't let the person know that I was [00:56:00] recording the call. Katherine: And so, Jenai: I sent them that video that said, This is what you said. Here it is in the transcript.And they stopped. Like, they just, they realized, Oh my gosh, we have to be more careful with her. Katherine: Mm hmm. And then at Jenai: that point, they, I noticed significantly that they were mincing words with me. Because, Katherine: they knew. Jenai: Well, and because I got my power back, they just couldn't just tell me anything anymore.I was weighing and measuring it against everything else they were telling other people. Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And if you are still happen to be in your situation, your abusive situation, document, document, document, document, document. If you can't record it, you can, you can leave a meeting and you can write your own notes.You can save the emails, as you know, I was saying, save the screenshots. Have your have all of your things that feel so weird to do that. Like you're just like a double agent. But just think of it that [00:57:00] way. Like, like you are a double agent in a hostile regime, just like, like that person. And yeah. and protect yourself and give yourself what you need to survive that.Speaking of survival in the event that you do get sued it is a very traumatizing situation to, like, have to be interacting with this stuff again and to not have agency over when you interact with that stuff. And, and it can be very re traumatizing. Litigation abuse is a real thing, such as. A, you know, woman tries to leave her violently abusive husband, even has a restraining order out.And for that husband to just want, he just wants to keep controlling her and maintain contact with her. We'll just sue her for nothing just to, to maintain the contact. So litigation abuse is a real thing. And that might help to just kind of look at it. That way of like, I'm [00:58:00] being abused in real time and care for yourself.If that were true, surround yourself with people, take a lot of naps be in therapy, if you can and give yourself a lot of tenderness and care in that situation. And you don't have to be this strong, bad ass all the time. Like if it's hard for you and it is a struggle, that's okay. It's okay if that is a struggle for you and you and it impacts you.That's why they're doing it. Like they're trying to impact you and for it to actually impact you and actually be like real time abuse that you're experiencing and for that to have an effect on you, that's okay. And give yourself resources in that situation so that you are actually being supported.when that is happening. One final thought and then I'll let you share final thoughts [00:59:00] too. If you decide that you want to file a civil suit against against a perpetrator or an abuser and you got a lot of evidence and a lot of corroboration and you think you got a good case, there are lawyers that work on contingency who will look at your case and say, I'm going to defend this case for free and I get paid if you get paid.So that is an option to do your research and not legal advice, but I really hope more people will do that. Do that, do that thing and just let them know, Hey, you're going to sue us. We're going to sue you. Monique, any final thoughts or any other things that you want to add to something that we left out or holes to fill?Yeah, Jenai: yeah. I will say if you live in a two party state and you have to get consent before recording, that can still work in your favor too. So after my former leaders found out I was recording, they eventually asked me to partake in a reconciliatory meeting. And I, I know I was like, I [01:00:00] will, I will come to that.And I told them I will come to that on two conditions. I, I had already sat on one side of the table with all six of them before. And I said, I need advocates there for me. Beyond my husband, I, I, I want people there who are for there for us. And the second request was that I record the meeting.If you, I thought, well, it's going, they're going to be much more careful with their words when they record the meeting, but still in that meeting, there were still some tells. Katherine: Yeah. For Jenai: instance, one thing I wrote about in other, I think maybe it's chapter three about apologies. And how I'm sorry, you feel that way is different than I, I'm sorry, I did this to you.Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: And in this rec, like this meeting that they, that they, they said, yes, they let me record it. They still said, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm sorry. You feel like you, I would, I had dismissed you and I'm sorry. And like, they still [01:01:00] kind of tell on themselves. So if you live in a two party state and you feel like you can't do these clever one party things.You can still gather good information, even if you ask. And they will still, they show their colors, even if they don't think that they're showing their colors. Like, I really think sometimes, sometimes some people know what they're doing and I think sometimes the self deception is so deep, they just don't know how bonkers it is.Or they're Katherine: super arrogant and they, they really genuinely feel like they can do whatever they want. Jenai: Yeah, yeah. And so there are ways in which you can gather information, even if, like, you don't have a similar one party state situation, like I do. I will also say that when it comes time to providing corroboration, you know, Asking for corroboration, I mentioned, was really hard, but also going back through the evidence, some of my evidence was audio or video recording, and [01:02:00] I had to go back and listen to Jenai: Or watch the video and provide a timestamp.I had to send them the audio or video link and give them a timestamp, and I, that was very difficult. Very hard on me. I did it because I needed to, but if that sounds like something you don't want to do try to find you'll, you'll, if you want to write it the way that you have it and not say, I remember this, you want to actually use that.Just be gentle with yourself. That is a really hard thing. I think I needed to not look at the book for a while after providing evidence because that was listening to those voices and seeing those faces again. It was really hard. And so I just wanted, I didn't want to not say that because people think, Oh, I have all this evidence going back and looking at the evidence can be really, really hard on you.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important to just have our, our agency and interact with the [01:03:00] material in our own way in our own time. And when you have something like a book deadline, You don't always have that that capacity to just, yeah. You know, do it on your own time and just when you, when you feel good enough for it.And and a and a civil suit similar is there's deadlines, there's timelines, and you can't just like, oh, I just wanna block out this day and then the next day I'm gonna go get a massage. Like, you don't always have that agency. And just that, just that lack of control within that. Contacts can also feel retraumatizing.And so since we probably discouraged everybody listening to from going public with their stories, what let's remind folks again, like why it's sometimes important to go public with our stories. Jenai: I think it was important to me personally to keep my integrity. I did everything I could do to stop someone else from getting hurt.I, I stood up, I did exactly what my [01:04:00] faith had encouraged me to do. I did exactly the thing I, I believe. And I write this in the book sharing your story and telling your story and owning your story is a way to be like what I think the prophets of the old Testament did. The prophets, they didn't tell fortunes.They were calling people in power to account. I now realize the weight of that, like, oh my gosh, like that is, I did exactly, I spoke up and I don't, I know that not everyone will speak up, not everyone, you know, I had power, I had gathered all this evidence, I had the power to speak up because I had kind of things that bolstered me, not everyone has that, and I, I don't want anyone to feel shame If they feel like they can't tell their story because they don't have that same kind of support or evidence but keep telling your story to yourself so that you're validating yourself.If, if no one else will affirm you, there is still so much power in [01:05:00] affirming your own truth, your own story. No one can take that away from you, but they will do their damnedest to take it away from you. I will also say that it is. mentally grueling. It is I just want people to take care of themselves.Above all, just, just to, if you do and do this work and you know you're going to tell your story give yourself a lot of space and say no to other things that Yeah. Other expectations, other, you know, there are other friends who I'm promoting this book and it's a very vulnerable book. There are other friends who are also writers who also want me to write endorsements or who also in this particular time want me to do something for them and support them.And as much as I love them, I have had to say no to a lot of them as I promote this book or do this work because I'm trying to do it well and with capacity. And because the story is so vulnerable, it takes a lot out of me. So say like, just be [01:06:00] understanding that you have to say no to a lot of people that you love and like, that's okay.Yeah, the people who love you who hear no from you will still like acknowledge that this is okay. Katherine: Absolutely. Jenai: If they take offense to that, then maybe they aren't as big a support as you thought they were and just redraw the boundaries of that relationship, but make a lot of space for you and doing this work.Katherine: Absolutely. And the reality that it's really important to tell our story, to tell our version of the story, to reclaim our narrative, to reclaim our power post an abusive situation, but there are many ways to do that. And telling a story publicly does not have to be the only or only way. Or even an option like we it's important to tell those stories 100 percent highly encouraged finding safe places where you can tell your story.You don't have to go public with it. [01:07:00] Absolutely. And, and. There are things you can do if you decide that that's important to you to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and protecting yourself. Listen to this episode for that. As we wrap up, how can people find you, find your book, interact with you, and yeah, what are the easiest places for people to get in touch with you?Jenai: I am everywhere on the internet at Janiyah Amin. And I'm usually hanging out on Instagram, not really on Twitter or X or whatever it is anymore. It's getting more vitriolic over there. I also, what prompted this conversation was not only that I'm promoting a book, but I also wrote about this experience on Substack.And if you want, Catherine, I can send you the link and you can include that in any show notes on the website, but also what I've considered doing and wha

It's Friday, and here's everything you need to know about Cannes on the final day of the festival. Here's what's coming up:News on all last night's Grand Prix winnersVoice notes from the CroisetteTrevor Robinson OBE on his tools to help people come up with funny ideasThanks to all of today's contributors including:Deepak ChopraTrevor RobinsonCharles Georges-PicotLisa DelaneyHeidi ChristWe'll see you at the same time in 2025!Caught up on Cannes is brought to you by Storythings and proudly supported by UK Advertising.Get in touch with us via email hello@storythings.comSign up to all our newsletters at Storythings.comProduced by Hugh GarryHosted and Executive Produced by Chris Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's Thursday already! We're halfway through the Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity, but we've got more exclusive news from the ground including the latest award winners and of course, some special guests!Here's what's coming up:We have all the winners from last night's awardsThere's the return of Voice Notes From the CroisettteAnd we hear about what it's like to be in the jury room when the it's almost impossible to decide between two contenders for the Grand PrixThanks to all of today's contributors including:Rob MayhewMeera Sharath-Chandra Nazia DouboisKory MarchisottoWe'll see you at the same time tomorrow!Caught up on Cannes is brought to you by Storythings and proudly supported by UK Advertising.Get in touch with us via email hello@storythings.comSign up to all our newsletters at Storythings.comProduced by Hugh GarryHosted and Executive Produced by Chris Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In today's show, we have...News on all the awards from last nightVoice notes from the CroisetteWhy boring advertising must dieMunya Chawawa with advice for new creatorsThanks to all of today's contributors including:Gary VaynerchuckMunya ChawawaIan BoggsGwyneth PaltrowJon EvansAdam MorganLydia WintersEnjoy the show and we'll see you at the same time tomorrow!Caught up on Cannes is brought to you by Storythings and proudly supported by UK Advertising.Get in touch with us via email hello@storythings.comSign up to all our newsletters at Storythings.comProduced by Hugh GarryHosted and Executive Produced by Chris Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The first day is a wrap but the festivities and coverage continue! Day 2 is officially underway and we've got more exclusive news from the Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity in under nine minutes! Here's what's coming up:A quick rundown of yesterday's Grand Prix award winnersSimon Vicars, Jury President, on what impressed him about the award entriesManchester United and England superstar goalkeeper Mary Earps on entrepreneurship, personal values and brand partnershipsA preview of the Entertainment Lions for Gaming, for Music and for Sport. And craft awards for Design, Digital Craft, Film Craft and Industry CraftsThanks to all of today's contributors including:Joanna SouzaMary EarpsChristina (Tina) TaylorEd PalmerSimon VicarsAndisa NtsubaneWe'll see you at the same time tomorrow!Caught up on Cannes is brought to you by Storythings and proudly supported by UK Advertising.Get in touch with us via email hello@storythings.comSign up to all our newsletters at Storythings.com.Produced by Hugh GarryHosted and Executive Produced by Chris Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Join Loren Sofia, Functional Fertility Coach and founder of Innate Fertility, and Nick and Nathan of Mitigate Stress as they discuss the missing links to sustainable health and wellness.In this episode, you'll learn about:Nick & Nathan's personal storyThings that are draining holes in your health routineThe 4 pillars of their unique philosophy for achieving better healthHow to navigate what to actually eat in the complicated world of wellnessHow to hydrate the right way How to tell if you're exercising too much and not recovering enough How your fascia impacts your posture and beyondPractical things you can do daily that regulate blood sugarAnd more!Episode Links:Nick & Nathan's Website: mitigatestress.com/ (use code INNATE for a 10% discount)Nick & Nathan's IG: @mitigatestressMore Resources

We've landed in Cannes and the festival kicks off today. Here's your very first daily dose of all things Cannes! As promised, we'll have the latest news, reviews and gossip from the Cannes Festival of Creativity delivered to you in nine minutes or less. Here's what's coming up:A quick rundown on what happened yesterday including the names of some of the first award winners.Paddy Gilmore, creator of the awesome Brands & Humour newsletter, shares his take on the return of humour.Jennifer Quigley-Jones, CEO and Founder of Digital Voices, on why Cannes is paying more attention to creatorsUnedited's Bernard P Achampong shares his top tips on surviving Cannes for those coming for the first timeUK Advertising's Aisling Conlon gives us a rundown of her unmissable sessions this week.We'll see you at the same time tomorrow!Caught up on Cannes is brought to you by Storythings and proudly supported by UK Advertising.Get in touch with us via email hello@storythings.comSign up to all our newsletters at Storythings.com.Produced by Hugh GarryHosted and Executive Produced by Chris Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Here's a preview of what you can expect from Caught Up On Cannes, our daily download of all things Cannes Lions, hosted by Chris Mitchell.Whether you're at the festival or following from home, you can expect all the latest news, interviews and gossip (tea will be spilled!) as well as a hot take or two from industry leaders. All delivered in nine minutes or less. Episode 1 will be out on Monday 17th June 2024.Caught up on Cannes is brought to you by Storythings and proudly supported by UK Advertising. Get in touch with us via email hello@storythings.comSign up to all our newsletters at Storythings.com. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you want to connect with your audience in the here and now, you've got to lean into the moment. That's one of the key takeaways from this episode with Renee D. Edwards, Global Social & Brand Marketing Executive. Renee brings bags of experience and wisdom to this episode, having worked with huge brands like IBM, Intel, and Samsung.  Full Episode Details All brands want to build that all-important connection with the audience on social media. But it is definitely easier said than done. Luckily, we have Renee D. Edwards on the show to give us some pointers on embracing and building your community on social media. For Renee, sometimes social pros need to “color outside the lines” and try something a little different – whether that be spending extra time engaging in the comments or collaborating with brands and content creators. We hear in this episode how social comments are “the new Twitter,” and why social pros should spend time connecting with people and other brands via comments. Renee shares her take on why she values collaboration over competition. While social media is a highly competitive place, sometimes it pays dividends to collaborate with other brands to create fun, refreshing content that stands out on your audience's social feed. We also hear her thoughts on AI, authentic content, working with content creators, and more. In This Episode: 2:22 - Renee shares what she's working on and is most passionate about 4:05 - The themes Renee is seeing in the B2B space 6:57 - Leaning into the moment on social 8:35 - How B2B and B2C social strategies differ 10:35 - Being social savvy on LinkedIn as a B2B leader 13:27 - How AI is shaping how social platforms are used 14:18 - Why comments are the new Twitter 18:55 - Best practices for handling comments on social media 20:43 - How to balance collaboration with competition 22:40 - Renee's favorite campaigns as a Webby Awards judge 25:21 - Highlights from Renee's career 27:08 - Renee's experience being an advisory board member of Storythings 29:09 - What brands can learn from content creators 32:54 - Renee's favorite brands to follow on social media 35:44 - How to connect with Renee  36:53 - Renee's advice for those looking to become a social pro Resources Join the Social Pros LinkedIn community Connect with Renee on LinkedIn Visit SocialPros.com for more insights from your favorite social media marketers.

Almost eight years after the launch of its problem-plagued Phoenix pay system, the Canadian government announced some good news: it has been testing a new HR and pay platform with promising early results. Implementing the proposed Dayforce system would require simplifying pay rules and doing more testing. But as the government prepares for a years-long transition, public servants want to know: When will their pay issues be resolved? And who will be held responsible for the Phoenix disaster? Phoenixed: Inside Canada's Payroll Disaster is produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings. To find out more, visit our website: click here Time Stamps (00:00) The 8th anniversary (05:32) Dayforce SaaS (07:19) Karen Hogan - Auditor general (11:06) Learning the lessons of Phoenix (14:01) An incremental transition (16:08) Justine Janssen - Dayforce (22:16) Avoiding customisation (26:08) Graham Jenkins

Following the launch of the Phoenix pay system, the Canadian government's troubled payroll transformation became a major news story. In a scathing report, an auditor called the project “an incomprehensible failure.” Phoenix was a political football as the Conservatives and the Liberals shifted the blame for growing complaints from public servants. Who should be held responsible for Phoenix's problems? Phoenixed: Inside Canada's Payroll Disaster is produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings. To find out more, visit our website: click here

The Canadian government's botched payroll transformation has not only cost workers their pay, but also job opportunities, marriages and houses. The Phoenix pay system's issues even played a role in a death. Three former federal workers share their stories of being underpaid or overpaid thousands of dollars, recounting the frustration and financial uncertainty that ensued. Phoenixed: Inside Canada's Payroll Disaster is produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings. To find out more, visit our website: click here Time Stamps (00.00) Jennifer Carr (05:58) The credit card game (08:54) Blair Winger (12:27) Colin Cameron (16:04) Deciphering a Phoenix paystub (19:00) The death of Linda Deschâtelets (20:08) Canada Revenue Agency statement (22:00) Phoenix boils over…

As the Canadian government embarked on its payroll transformation project, IBM was tasked with customizing software for a complex public service pay system. Pressure to stay on budget led the government to defer or eliminate important functions and cancel a planned pilot test. In the months before the launch in 2016, there were many warnings that the Phoenix pay system wasn't ready—but the government pressed on anyway. Phoenixed: Inside Canada's Payroll Disaster is produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings. To find out more, visit our website: click here Time stamps (00.00) Intro (03:28) IBM/PeopleSoft (06:24) The sole bidder (07:37) Senate hearing (09:14) Justin Trudeau (13:56) Failure rates (18:34) Phoenix goes live (20:36) Complaints pour in

Amid the Canadian government's payroll transformation, a new federal pay centre was established in the quaint community of Miramichi, New Brunswick. Why was this sleepy city chosen as the base for hundreds of government payroll workers? Learn how political decisions after a tragedy in Montreal influenced the choice to place payroll jobs in Miramichi. Phoenixed: Inside Canada's Payroll Disaster is produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings. To find out more, visit our website: click here

After the Canadian government launched a new payroll system in 2016, many public servants were underpaid, some for months at a time. Civil servants who “got phoenixed” have lost job opportunities and lost houses. The Phoenix pay project started with good intentions — so how did it all go so wrong? Phoenixed: Inside Canada's payroll disaster, produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings, takes you inside the story in a six-part investigative series.   Episode One - timestamps (00.00) Intro (03:28) Place du Portage (05:15) Graham Jenkins (06:56) Payroll complexity (11:37) Why Phoenix failed (16:52) Parliamentary hearing (19:06) Union rep Chris Aylward (21:45) Still to come on Phoenixed   w: https://www.phoenixedglobalpayrollassociation.com/ e: info@phoenixedglobalpayrollassociation.com  

A new investigative podcast that dives deep into the Canadian government's botched payroll transformation project — a $3 billion problem that still hasn't been resolved. Phoenixed: Inside Canada's payroll disaster is produced by the Global Payroll Association and Storythings.

Today, why formats matter so much. If you want to get listeners stay engaged, for readers to finish an article, to resonate deeply and make work that matters, then we need to focus on formats. In this episode, we focus on why formats matter so much, how you can search them out for yourself and craft your own to hook an audience and get them to the end.We're joined by the most format-obsessed person out there: Hugh Garry, co-founder of Storythings. Hugh and his team write the newsletter, Formats Unpacked, diving each week into a format and why they love it so very much and why, maybe, you should too. DEVELOP MORE INSPIRING IDEAS & STORIES:Jay's free newsletter, with a new idea for communicating in ways that connect shared every other Friday: jayacunzo.com/newsletterThe Creator Kitchen: Jay's membership for quality-obsessed creators, built in partnership with Melanie Deziel (author, speaker, NY Times, TIME, HuffPost). Use code UNTHINKABLE for $100 off membership.Jay's 1:1 coaching: book an hour or a month of swapping voice memos -- or book Jay as your dedicated collaborator, coach, exec. producer, and creative partner to develop your ideas and tell more effective stories.***INSIDE THIS EPISODE:Hugh Garry: Director at  Storythings, writes the Formats Unpacked newsletterTone Knob newsletterBrands and Humour newsletter***PRODUCTION CREDITS:- Creator, host, writer, editor: Jay Acunzo- Producer and researcher: Ilana Nevins

Likes, Followers, Shares, Video Views: these are the currency of digital publishing. But as Matt Locke argues in today's conversation, change is coming.The importance of the Like as a metric of audience engagement is quickly diminishing. As the dominant social platforms are converging to become video-led TikTok clones, engagement metrics have shifted from clicks to viewing. From TikTok to Netflix, the most important numbers now are not the big ones, but the long ones - it's all about how long something keeps your attention, not if it inspires you to click a button.What does this mean for many of the biggest sports teams, athletes, leagues and governing bodies, which have sought to redefine themselves as entertainment companies. Social media follower numbers have become the basis of a football club's valuation, separating the so-called Super League clubs from the rest.And what are the lessons from the recent demise of Vice and BuzzFeed, two of the most influential digital entertainment businesses of the last decade or more? Matt Locke co-founded the strategy and content company Storythings in 2011 and is executive producer on projects for clients including BBC, PBS, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and Wellcome Trust. Before that Matt was Head of Innovation at BBC and Head of Multiplatform at Channel 4. Here are some details on his work on the history of attention metrics, How To Measure Ghosts and the Storythings newsletter, Attention Matters, referenced in the podcast.Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport. A mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations with a who's who of the global industry. To join our community of listeners, sign up to the weekly UP Newsletter and follow us on Twitter @UnffclPrtnrWe publish two podcasts each week, on Tuesday and Friday. These are deep conversations with smart people from inside and outside sport. Our entire back catalogue of 300 sports business conversations are available free of charge here. Each pod is available by searching for ‘Unofficial Partner' on Apple, Spotify, Google, Stitcher and every podcast app. If you're interested in collaborating with Unofficial Partner to create one-off podcasts or series, you can reach us via the website.

Faris Yakob, co-founder of the nomadic creative consultancy Genius Steals and author of Paid Attention, hosts a special three-part podcast series exploring human attention and advertising. In episode one, discussion focuses on the origins of the ‘attention economy', how it has evolved in the digital age, and how marketers can attract attention. Faris is joined by Zoe Scaman, founder of integrated strategy studio Bodacious, Matt Locke, partner at content studio Storythings, and Tony Haile, senior director of product at Twitter.

Hazel Ortega is a firm believer that sharing your story can change the world, that a fish can't grow big in a small pond. She shares that it wasn't that she wanted to be a psychologist, but that she didn't want to be homeless that she went to high school and college as a mom of three. Hazel and Lesley talk about replacing "goals" with "miracles," changing your environment, and celebrating the small wins.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:The challenge of staying in the mindset of your choiceIt takes an effort to build a communityChange the world by sharing your storyThings didn't change for Hazel until she changed her environmentA fish can't grow big in a small pondYou're not going to feel the same five years from now as you do today (and that's a good thing!)Episode References/Links:Hazel's IGHazel's LIHazel's FBHazel's websiteHazel's other websiteMaslow's hierarchy of needsDave RamseyRachel RogersGuest Bio:Hazel Ortega, who is open about coming from a rough childhood, tells her inspiring story on how she wentFrom:Growing up poorLiving in a rat-infested household, in a dangerous gang neighborhoodLiving on food stampsPutting higher education on the back burnerTo:Having higher education even in her late 20'sHaving a bestselling book on AmazonHaving several multimillion-dollar businessesFlying in private jetsHaving more than enough quality time for her familyLearn how having big goals, leveraging on the available opportunities, and surrounding yourself with good people can bring major changes in your life.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hello, how are you? Welcome back to Be It Till You See It. Ah, I just got off of the interview with Hazel Ortega, let me just tell you if there was never, if there was ever a Be It Till You See It story you had to listen to this, this is the one. This woman grew up in just grew up in a city that like many of us could never imagine or dream or picture. And it was hard times, I mean, she didn't get her high school diploma till she was 30. So spoiler alert there. And now she is I just hung up with her and she's gone off to a trip to Peru, and then she's going to Croatia. So, she is literally going to tell you how to Be It Till You See It. She's got a great vision for how this is, her tips are absolutely doable. And it's a challenge to live in this mindset. But it's like, every time I hear her story, I can't think of another way to live. I can't think of another mindset to have, it just makes so much sense. So if you have been struggling if you've been like, "Well Lesley, these stories you keep bringing on they're great, but I'm from a place that this doesn't happen. People don't leave my town like that, or, you know, I'm I'm in this relationship. And I this is how it's gonna be and I can't see a logical way out of it." Well, we're screwing logic this week, and we are talking about miracles. And so, I I really hope you listen to her whole story here and dive into the thing she's offering you there in the show notes below. And you know, do me a huge favor and let Hazel and I know how this episode changed your life or changed your mindset even for a moment. Because I think it's, I think it's like a really great way if we could just make this the other way that everyone's dreaming. Just imagine where the world would be and all the things that we're doing. So, anyways, y'all Hazel Ortega is with us this week. Oh, and also so exciting. If you love Joanna Vargas from episode one, I met this woman through Joanna Vargas. And so side note, just something I'd say, ask people you love to know about people they love. Because something I'm doing here in Las Vegas is asking people who I really love and enjoy who they love and enjoy because I'm building a network because I didn't have one when I moved here. I knew a couple people very tangentially like spent a little bit of time with them and we both loved Carbon 38 and everything has it's hard to meet people, it's hard to create a community, I'm not saying it's easy. So you know please know that I understand that that effort. But if you want to meet awesome people ask the awesome people you know who they love and your your awesome community and network will grow. So here we go after this message, Hazel Ortega.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Hello, Be It Till You See It listeners. I'm here with Hazel Ortega. Y'all, this woman I cannot wait for you to hear her story. I'm so honored because I know it already. But she was introduced to me by Joanna Vargas. You'll remember from episode one. So if you love Joanna and the force she is then you are going to love Hazel. And so here is Hazel! Hazel tell everyone who you are and what you're up to. And just thank you so much for being here today to shine your light and share your story.Hazel Ortega 3:59  Thank you, Lesley, thank you so much for letting me do that, right? That's my number one thing is to change the world by sharing my story. And who I am, I'm a I'm a mom. I have a 23 year old daughter who just graduated college and is a registered nurse. Yes ...Lesley Logan 4:18  That's amazing. The world needs more nurses. That's amazing.Hazel Ortega 4:22  Yes, I'm very happy that I created this human being to contribute to the planet. And my story, my story started off really rough growing up in the poorest neighborhood of Los Angeles. Not just poor but you know, gang members and growing up on welfare. My parents were immigrants from Mexico didn't even speak English. And having education was something that was not a priority. Surviving our neighborhood was (Lesley: Yeah) not ending up in what most people would end up in in those conditions like becoming pregnant as a teenager, becoming a drug addict, going to jail, getting into gangs or dying, (Lesley: Yeah) basically. So I that's the way I grew up. Ah ...Lesley Logan 5:17  Yeah, I mean, I think it's so interesting to hear you point out, like, that, that was... the thing was surviving. Because I think a lot of people who didn't grew up in that kind of environment, do not... do misunderstand, like, "Well, why don't they just go get a job?" And it's like, well, it's really not that easy when when everything around you is like, it's when you're in that Maslow's hierarchy of needs of like, "Where's your next meal? Where are you staying for the night?" Like that kind of stuff. It is hard to see a future ahead. And so did you, so can you tell everyone like, did you, did you go to college? I mean, your daughter went or like when what was your next step? Like, how did you get out of that neighborhood? Because I mean, if you're watching on YouTube, y'all she is living in a beautiful house. So with a gorgeous red hat. So like, how did you go from that environment to where you are now?Hazel Ortega 6:08  Yeah, well, when you say that environment, it means like an 800 square foot apartment, one bedroom, not having a future, defaulting into getting a job, not a job I love but a job because my cousin works there, right. And I need to pay my bills. So it was never a conversation of creating my life and going in that direction. I never had that conversation with anybody. (Lesley: Yeah) So, how did that that all change? I got a job because my cousin was working at a law office. And she brought me and she was the receptionist, and the attorney interviewed me, I probably was not going to get the job. He even asked me what gang I was from, because he could tell that I had like this tough, you know, demeanor, and like I know a lot of things from the streets. And he did ask me that about the gangs. And he knew where I lived. He asked me, you know, what Avenue I was living on, because the gang is a lot is called The Avenues. (Lesley: Yeah) And he did end up hiring me because, not only did my cousin recommend me for the job, but I also had a mentor in high school who was a judge in the workers compensation arena, and who this attorney knew. And because of that recommendation, I was able to start work at this prestigious law firm. (Lesley: Wow) And that's where everything changed. And Lesley, you know, the last time I was talking to your people, I was telling them, that things didn't change for me until I changed my environment. (Lesley: Yeah) Right ...Lesley Logan 7:43  That is that is the biggest key. I'm studying like, human behavior, with BJ Fogg. And he has said, the study show, if you don't change your environment it doesn't matter what you do, doesn't matter if you go back to school, or if you lose the weight, or if you get the gold job. If your environment is the same, you won't ... you won't get the benefits of those things.Hazel Ortega 8:05  Yeah, exactly. Like people tell me, "Oh, you were a big fish in a small pond." I said, "No, a fish can't grow big in a small pond." You have to change your pond. And getting this job at this prestigious law firm was a different pond.Lesley Logan 8:20  Oh, that is... I mean, I felt like Oprah, that's a tweetable moment. It's not... a fish can't grow big (Lesley laughs) in a small pond, you have to get a bigger pond. That's amazing. (Hazel laughs) Yeah. So so you know, you got this job. And I mean, so many people listening this are doing a job that maybe they got because someone recommended you should do this, or you should do this. And I think I think a lot of people, even in growing in environments that are not as tough as yours, are not living their purpose. They're they're doing what someone said they should do, or like, here's a job you can have. And so how did how did you? What was it like at that that law firm? And like what what was the next step? What was that launching pad for you?Hazel Ortega 9:03  First, I'll tell you, I got the job. And I felt out of place, like I didn't belong. And I worked with these attorneys that were making millions of dollars a year. It's such a prestigious law firm, right? And celebri... we represented celebrities who were injured while filming, which was really interesting, and NFL players. And I always felt really shy like I was not on the same level as them like there's a difference there. And I kept working there. Eventually I ended up getting injured on that job. The attorney that I worked for who encouraged me to go back to school because of my injury and just because I should. I didn't even have a high school diploma when he hired me at 24 years old. A couple years later, I became an injured worker. The attorney tells me now, "You really need to take school seriously. You need to go back to school," and I start to go back to school and I earned my highest diploma when I'm 30 years old, and then I kept going.Lesley Logan 10:05  Wow. You know, that's just like proof that it's never too late to go back. And then also, what, I mean I don't know this attorney, I don't know the whole story, but I feel like what a nice guardian angel, like just like a little, "Tap, tap, tap... You should really go back to school." And then like, you really have to take your education seriously. So you left the law firm after you got your high school diploma or what was what what did you do for work after after you went to high school?Hazel Ortega 10:31  So, I kept working with the attorney while I got my high school diploma and my college credits. I still I stayed there. And then eventually he looked at me and he said, "Oh, my God, I realized that you're go... you're going to leave me," because I was on track to become a psychologist. And, yeah, this is something that he recommended for me to do. Once I didn't know what to do. Like I got, I finished my associates degree. And he asked me, "What are you going to do next?" I had no idea what I was going to do next. And honestly, I was done. I didn't want to keep going to school. And he told me, "You you're going to be a professional, you better think about what you want to do." And I was like, "Oh my God, it was so hard to go to school." Honestly, I worked from nine to five as a secretary, I went to school from seven to 10 at night, and I went to weekend college, Saturday and Sunday ... (Lesley: and you had a daughter)Lesley Logan 11:25  And your three kids (Hazel: three kids at home, three young kids at home.) Wow! Wow! So okay. So I know the moms listening to this are like, how did you do that? Like, did you have help? Because I know childcare is really expensive and hard, like what... And also like, what was going through your mind that you made that a priority? Because that takes a lot of effort to make sure that you are you able to work, go to school and have your kids taken care of.Hazel Ortega 11:52  Yeah, and honestly, that losing the job that I currently had, where the where I was injured, was my push because I thought if I lose this job, I'm not going to get another job paying as much as this does. And mind you I was only getting paid $15 an hour is like I'm I'm afraid of losing this job. So I have to educate myself. So I get another job comparable to this job or better. (Lesley: Yeah) It wasn't I wanted to be a psychologist. It was because I didn't want to be homeless that I went back to school. Right? I didn't was not thinking of being a professional or, or living in a pimp daddy mansion. Like I didn't have those dreams. Okay, those dreams, I incrementally grew and grew. (Lesley: Yeah) So, I went to school and one of the things Lesley that a lot of people I realized is that they feel that the way you feel today is the way you're going to feel five years from now and that's not true. Along the way you add to your self esteem, based on what you're up to, right. Unless you don't grow and expand yourself, then you're going to have low self esteem in five years as well. There's no reason why your future should look any different. (Lesley: Right) If you personally read books, you change your environment, friends, and you learn about whatever it is that you're interested in, and go back to school and you start making changes, you're going to be a completely different person five years from now you will be and that's what happened to me.Lesley Logan 13:19  So, I couldn't agree more because I think often ... well, I said this, I've said this before, I'm not the first person to say it. But like we overestimate we can do in a day and we underestimate we can do in a year or five years. And I think, you know, we do take for granted, we think if we're feeling good, we're going to feel this good and five years, well, if you're doing the things you said you're gonna feel better, you're gonna feel even better. But if you are doing nothing, if you just stay status quo, you're gonna start to feel behind because the world's going forward, you know, so, um, so I love that you said that but so you you went to school, you change that. And then because I because I know the story and how it goes, I'm just gonna, how did you go from like, feeling like paycheck to paycheck and like being in school to being where you are now? Like, what were, what was the what was the impetus to even getting out of like, just doing the nine to five.Hazel Ortega 14:12  Okay, so I finished college, and I became a psychologist and I got a job, right? And so the college taught me how to do a new job and it was great. And it taught me how to think differently, and especially in psychology, think different and help others, right? So I'm learning that I can actually think differently and becoming educated gave me tools to react differently to the problems I was having in life. The problems never changed. I just react different because I learned to do better. So I got a job as a psychologist. I was still bouncing checks. I didn't work on that part. The ...Lesley Logan 14:48  Well, you didn't go to financial school, you went to psychology school, so you know. (Hazel: Exactly)Hazel Ortega 14:53  So, I was still bouncing checks negative in my account and feeling really like, I was going to live a life of poverty until the rest of my life and and Lesley, I'll tell you this, that people that don't have any money and people that have a lot of money can both have equal fear of not having enough money. (Lesley: Yeah) It's really as a mindset and something that everybody should work on. You could be, you could have a million dollars in the bank, and then feel like you're, you know, paying for dinner. And then people are not pitching in like, like, they're taking advantage of you, like you know ...Lesley Logan 15:30  Oh, 100 100%, that money mindset is so key because I mean, I know people who make millions of dollars, and they have the same fears that I do, and I'm not making millions yet. But, um, but like, you know, and I'm like, I like see that in them. And I'm like, "This is not something I want to grow with me. This, we need to take care of now."Hazel Ortega 15:51  Yes, and you can, you definitely can have freedom around money. So, what I did is I started to take personal development courses. And that is where everything changed exponentially for me, where I was starting to really learn about the way I think and why I think that way in and how can I think differently. And then you can have a mindset shift, like in a nanosecond, where once you see something new in a new way, you'll never go back to see it the old way. So it behooves all of us to master ourselves to learn about ourselves, and look at life in whole new different ways that this is a personal development seminar, I had a coach. And so I think that's really important for all of us to have coaches and mentors, because they see something in you that you can't see for yourself and they hold the space. Right? And my coach asked me, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" At the time, I couldn't think of anything that would be different in five years, then then what was happening in that moment. I still was the early stages of my personal development, and I call it my embryonic stage of personal development ...Lesley Logan 17:12  I love that so much, yeah, but I think, I think ... like so many people don't invest in a coach, because either they've never heard of one. Or even they may think they can't afford it or don't deserve it. So how did you like, how did you get to where you feel like, I'm gonna invest in this person?Hazel Ortega 17:29  I didn't actually invest in the personal development coach, that was something that was assigned to me. And that was my, probably my first exposure to having a coach, (Lesley: Okay, okay, got it) I'm having an ability, I became used to it. And then when I was done with the course, in my own personal life, I hired a coach for the first time for my business. Lesley Logan 17:51  Got it. Okay, I see that, thank you for sharing that. Because I think sometimes people like you did stuff to get there to get, to where you could. And so this person asked you to see yourself in five years, you couldn't do that.Hazel Ortega 18:04  I couldn't come up with anything, it was like the beginning, I was blocked, like kapow. And then I was, you know, very reasonable about everything at that time, in the sense of like, you know, based on my reality, like, what is, what's going to happen in five years, and I thought, well, in five years, me... well, I'll just be five years older. Like, there's no reason why anything should be, you know, very different. (Lesley: Right) Oh, she, you know, she asked me that, and I still couldn't come up with anything. So I'm sitting there, and she's holding space for me. I'll wait, you think about it, you know, and she gave me like, 10 minutes. And I knew I couldn't get away with like, I don't know. So I sat there and after a few minutes, I said, "Well, if I believe in God, and I believe in miracles, then what is possible for me in five years," and that opened up this world that I didn't have access to before I realized that I never dream. I'm all of us, a lot of us are mostly realistic. We're trained in school to be realistic, to be logical, to ... that, you know, two plus two is four, four plus four is eight. And that's the way it goes expert, you know, you get success as you build on it. (Lesley: Yeah) And trying to be a millionaire. If you have no money in the bank, it doesn't even seem feasible, or nobody else in your family has ever been a millionaire. It just ...Lesley Logan 19:21  That, that's exactly it. If you've never seen it, it's really hard to dream it. And if people around you are saying, "This is it, this is what you're doing." You know, like, cuz I definitely had those people in my family who were like, "Why, why would you do that?" Or like, "Don't do that, because like, you could lose everything." And it's like, "Well, I don't have a lot to lose. So I may as well cope," you know, go for it. But like it's hard if the people in your environment haven't shown you that there. It's okay, it's safe to dream and it's, it's powerful to dream.Absolutely. I mean, I'm divorced now. But when I was married, I changed jobs. And my my husband at the time, was telling me, "Why you changing jobs. What if, what if that new job, it doesn't work out and then you're gonna lose this other job that you have, and you've been there for so long." Unlike, what the other job pays more is it, I'm gonna have a better position. And I explained it to him and he was very scared for me. (Lesley: Yeah, yeah) and I did it anyway. But yes, he, you know, I could have thought to myself back then, like, "Oh, he's keeping me down, or he doesn't believe in me, he's always being negative." But now as I got my training these people in our lives, which are our mothers, our fathers, brothers and sisters, and spouses, and significant others, and everybody, they're afraid for us, right? They create these fears for us. And we're, you know, our we have a mustard seed of confidence. And we're like, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) you need a little bit that we have, and then they come in, they make us feel like, like, we should be very scared, and don't do it. (Lesley: Yeah) ... Feel the fe... you know, feel the fear and do it anyway. These people love us. They... I'm very clear about that. They don't want to keep us small, but what they want to do is keep us safe. Yeah, don't lose everything. You're gonna lose your money, don't invest in that, you're gonna lose this you all your time, you're gonna get sick. ... so that's you're free.I I love that. You said that because we have a mantra to Be It pod. It's like "Do It Scared." And so there's like all this, these clothes, this merch, like, "Do It Scared" because people ask all the time, like, "How did you do that? I'm so scared." Like, "I'm scared all the time. I'm just doing it scared." Like, I don't even like sometimes like in Cambodia, I try to learn to drive when I'm in Cambodia, on a moped, moped. And everyone drives in different, like, they're just going there's no streets like lanes, you just drive and you make a left hand turn, you make it into oncoming traffic. And then when you when it's safe, you merge over. And I literally just go, "Aaah," as I'm going in, I don't know. Somehow, it lets me like peddle. (Lesley laughs) So I love that you said that. So, I also just wanted to go back to you. So you came up with something to, you dreamt something up in five years, because you believe like, if I believe in God, if I believe in miracles, and I believe this. I think so many people are like you that they ha... they get stuck, they have a block, they're afraid. I do a lot of coaching people and I'm like, "Where do you want to be in 10 years?" And they're like, "I don't I don't even know I want to be next month." And I'm like, and then they're embarrassed by it. But that's actually not abnormal to not be able to think that far ahead. So I'm so glad you said that because a lot of people would just assume the like, "Okay, I wrote down I'm gonna do in five years," and you had a, you had a block. So how did what did you write down? How did you get past that block?Well, you know, your brain is this beautiful organ that keeps you alive. However, it also keeps you small and in fear, right? And so if you understand your brains, the way the brain works, you can outsmart your brain, right? And so when I said, you know, when I heard that question, I couldn't think of anything. I mean, I couldn't think of anything for five years. But when I said miracles, well, your brain is not, it's not programmed to make a miracle happen. So it allowed me to have that vision. That's why I think the miracle mentality miracle mindset is really important to to establish, because then you can really make miracles happen. You ...So you're replacing right miracles for goals, like your like, you put miracles in there. Because then your brain isn't like, "Oh, that's not actually logistically possible in five years." ... Because by miracle your brains like, "Okay, I'm willing to leave room for that." ...Hazel Ortega 23:31  Yeah. Imagine your brain, you put in there that you want to have a million dollars, your brain is faster than the calculator. It's already like, "No, not gonna happen." (Hazel laughs)Lesley Logan 23:42  It's so true. It's so true. You know, I'll think of things I'm like, "Oh, I wanna do that from 40." And then immediately my brain is like, "Well, where does that money come, where it's going?" And it's like, it's like, "No, stop. You don't have to worry about that. It's happening from 40." And I'm going to insert miracles, insert miracles, instead, I love it.Hazel Ortega 23:59  Yeah, do that. And even like, you could say, "I want to be in love. I want to have the love of my life." But you're married to a differ... to a person that you don't believe that that's the person, you know and you absolutely can fall in love and have the love of your life with the current relationship that you have even if you think like this person cannot change this, you know, miracles do happen, give people chances, and you'll see it, you'll absolutely see it. I wish I had this information on when I was a lot younger, my life would look even different, more different, and I would have avoided a lot of pain and suffering. But it's never too late and I'm still young. (Lesley: Yeah) You know, (Hazel laughs)Lesley Logan 24:39  You're still... well, we're also young. I mean, I mean, people are living to a 120 these days. So, okay, everyone's dying to know, what was on the thing and five years ago, what did you get all of it?Hazel Ortega 24:51  Okay, so I said, I wanted to have a life that look... like I was always on vacation ...Lesley Logan 24:59  Well, you do. You look like you're about to like go out to the pool right now. (Lesley laughs) YeahHazel Ortega 25:04  ... now at my house. (Lesley: Yeah) I'm, I'm living my dream every single day. I'm always in awe of how I manifest this into my life. But I'm always creating my life, right? So I could for the first time ever I created that I had a like, look like I was always on vacation. I said, I wanted to have a $3 million plus business. At the time, I did have my own business. I started it from my garage. Well, I grew it to be the largest company in California that offers counseling for injured workers. Then I said, I wanted to find the love of my life. I didn't even believe in that. I thought it was something you know, that was for people on television, because I, I didn't even see it in, see it in real life. My mom married and divorced many times and I was already divorced at this time also. So, I didn't believe that you could have the love of your life. And if you did, it wasn't sustainable. So it was all faced, not based on fear. I had fear but everything. (Lesley: Yeah) I also said I wanted to fly in private jets and I wanted to live in a pimp daddy mansion, the kind where music videos are filmed. ... I'll know that I had none of it at the moment when I said it.Lesley Logan 25:17  Right. And so are people filming music videos in your pimp daddy mansion? Is it happening?Hazel Ortega 26:21  Yes, it definitely happening and Grey's Anatomy is looking at my home to do a season here, filming here, (Lesley: Oh my gosh, stop!) (Lesley laughs) I tell you, I can't even invent this stuff. Like, I think you know, you when you create the life that you want. You not only get the life that you said you want, but you also get a bag of chips. That means it's even better than you created it. And you think it can't get better, but always can get better.Lesley Logan 26:49  I agree. I everything I've ever achieved that I wanted. It came with more than I expected and, and it's and it's true. Y'all, if you're listening, like, "How does she know the stuff." So, we had Hazel and as an agency, an agency for a webinar. And after a year you did your talk on, "How to like create your miracle mindset." Brad and I went for a walk and I had been struggling with like, because I'm building a business to sell. Y'all, I'm not gonna say which one but one of them I'm building to sell and I kept getting stuck on like, "Who's buying this? Like, who would buy this?" You know, not in like a negative, it's not worth buying because we have hundreds of members. So it's, you know, it's, it's everything people want, but like, "Who would who would buy it someday." And on the walk, I like got so clear on exactly who would buy it, how much they're buying it for all the things and I was like, and it was so funny because immediately Brad had that his brain was like, "What I was like, it's miracle time". It's miracle tell your brain, this is a miracle. This is not I got, this a miracle. And it was so fun and we have like got a dream board going on. So you can see it all the time. It's a really, I'm really excited about. So, I can't wait to get all that in a bag of chips, like, it is really fun.Hazel Ortega 28:04  You know, follow it up, follow it up with okay, so you created who is going to buy it and how much they're going to pay for it. Okay, so then and then what? What was was going to change for you. Now you're going to have more freedom. Now you're going to travel, you know now what, you now you're going to have a nonprofit. What benefits are there to selling your company? Like all of what your life is going to look like when you sell it? (Lesley: Ah) That's ... golden, the next golden step ...Lesley Logan 28:33  Okay, done. Don't worry, I'll do that homework this weekend ... (Lesley laughs) (Hazel: And that's so much fun) Oh, it's so much fun. Hazel, you're so fun. I just I'm so go... I really when I heard your story, I was like, "We have to have her on" because I just know that there are people sitting there listening and they're stuck. And they keep getting logistical on like logical on their on their things. And, and so they keep listening to inspo. And they're like, "Well, didn't works for them, didn't work for me." And I just had to have you on because like, you are a representation that like, if you put it out there and then and then this is this is like a fun thing. So people are like, so for the people who are being logical. You put this out, you put these miracles out. What is the first thing you did to get the ball rolling on the miracles?Hazel Ortega 29:22  Okay, so, I did these things, subconsciously, I didn't have like a to-do list that would make these things happen. I crea... I created my vision right in my brain. And then I drew it and it become to my house, my drawing is framed and it's in my dining room. And you can see this, it's like, "One day is going to be in the museum of Hazel," right? (Hazel and Lesley laughs) (Lesley: Yes.) And my statue is gonna be there too. (Hazel laughs)Lesley Logan 29:51  Absolutely, I hope it's wearing a red hat. (Hazel laughs)Hazel Ortega 29:55  Okay, so, I drew it and then what happened is that in my real life, I didn't have those things, right. So, I one of the things I also said I wanted was a relationship with my sisters that looked like we were in heaven. At the time when I drew it, I was fist fighting with my sisters. So, I did not have that relationship with them. I was a psychologist, fist fighting with my sister who was a police officer at the time. Okay ...Lesley Logan 30:23  So it's gonna be a TV show, just so you know, this will be a movie. (Hazel laughs)Hazel Ortega 30:29  Yes. And so, what I did was, once I saw it in my brain, when I what I saw in real life was not that and it made me take action. So in the area of money, I took a course, the Dave Ramsey course, I was tired of being broke and paycheck to paycheck. So, I took a Dave Ramsey course to bu... to budget, to learn how to budget, okay, and I even need budget anymore. But by ...Lesley Logan 30:58  ... now, so you know, probably is very helpful.Hazel Ortega 31:02  It was very helpful. And I created a group of women who also wanted to get out of the paycheck to paycheck barely (Lesley: Yeah) making that and start to budget. And then what's your budget? Why do you want to budget? Well, I want to budget because I want to save money. Okay, why don't want to save money? Well, because once I save money, that I want to invest money, I want my money to grow. (Lesley: Yeah) So, I had like the why, why, why? (Lesley: Yeah) became everything's I was doing ... So, and then I named the group of Millionaire Women of Whittier, the city that we live that, and the women in the group were very uncomfortable that I named it women, millionaire women, and they were like, "We don't want to be millionaires." I'm like, "How could you say that?" You know, and so I'm like, "It's just a game. It's just, you know, like for fun?" Well, they were not liking it right now. I started a new group called Billionaire Women's Club. And that one, too, I invited one of my friends to it, and and she's one of my wealthiest friends I have. And she said, "You know, I don't want to be a billionaire." I'm just like, "What is this all about?" ...Lesley Logan 32:02  Have you heard of Rachel Rodgers? She has these "Shmellies" like she millionaires? (Hazel: Oh, no) yeah, she calls these "Shmellies." I don't it's a group that she created. Because she, she wrote a book like, "Everyone's a Millionaire," or "We Can All Be Millionaires" or something like that. So it's, I think, I mean, that's a whole different topic for a different podcast, Hazel, that we could have all these women on to talk about, like, what are women afraid of about being millionaires and billionaires, and I think it's a lot of like, stuff that we were raised with the patriarch. So you know, but I think it's great, the work you're doing, you're doing the Lord's work there. Because it's like, if we can get more and more women to aspire and believe that they can be millionaires or billionaires, like, you know, just imagine what the little girls growing up, get to see as possible, you know, their miracles will be huge. They'll be bigger than ours.I'm telling you, so I learned this technology, right. And now, I, in the last 10 years, I just celebrated my 10 year business anniversary. And, number one, I am still in business, which I've you know, statistically most businesses do not do not last the first five years, (Lesley: Yup) then it's it's a multi million dollar business. So that statistically, is remarkable. (Lesley: Very right. Yeah) It's a miracle. I'm a woman business owner, a miracle, I'm a minority with miracle, you know, and I'm in workers comp... niche where there's, there's, it's a miracle. (Lesley: Yeah) And so I've been able to help 40,000 injured workers with through our counseling to train and get jobs, they love, 40,000. So because I learned this technology, and I changed my life. Now 40,000 people were impacted. And who knows ...Yeah, you're chaning them in bigger ways. So I mean, y'all, I hope you heard that. Like she, she did all this miracle work, miracle mindset. And then she took some action, which is possible. She's like, "Okay, if I want to get better with money, I need to actually know how to be better with if, I want to have money, I better know how to use it. If I want to have relationship with my sisters, I better work on that" like so, I think that's really cool. I mean, Hazel, have to have you back because I could just keep talking to you. But I feel like I'm really excited to go back to my journal and my picture and add to it. Okay, Hazel first before we get to the Be It steps. We're letting people get a pen and paper. How can people follow you, find you get to know, you work with you?I'm on Instagram, @hazelortega_official is my Instagram and a lot of people reach out to me there and ask me questions and everybody can feel free to do that. My website is themasteryofmiracles.com and I have a free visioning guide there that you can use to create your 10 year vision.Oh, I love it. We're gonna put all that in the show notes. So super easy for everyone to just link on through, get that get that freebie and also get mastering your miracles. And definitely follow her on Instagram because it's so fun. I follow you and it's it's it's inspiring. It's really, it's really fun to watch everything that you're doing. Okay, I asked everyone this, because I think it's great to be inspired. But take action is like my thing because messy action is where you know, all the good stuff comes from it allows you to be scared and do it scared because it's messy, don't be perfect. Perfect is boring. So, what would you say to someone who's listening to this? Like, what's the first thing? What's one or two things that they could do right now to have a miracle mindset?I have top three things, (Lesley: okay) okay. ... three things, even though my book has 15 things. (Lesley: Okay) Top three things right now, anybody can do wherever they are in their lives, is create the vision for your life 10 years from now, based on miracles, so miracles have nothing to do with you. It's completely to do with the divine. But you have to create that coming from your heart. What do you want in 10 years? And go big, big (Lesley: Yeah) because ... like, you can't ask for small stuff. (Lesley: Yeah) I mean, this guy did everything around us, right? So, go big. God wants you to have the first test tickets. He wants you to have the love of your life. And he wants you to have everything that you want and the bag of chips, okay? So don't go, don't ask for small things. You have a big God, though, that's one. And then number two, change your environment. So like those people that Lesley mentioned, and I mentioned that are naysayers. That's fine. You don't have to get rid of them. But you do need to find another environment to spend more time there. So if you want to have a successful business, that's over a million dollars, then find the group of those people and hang out with that group. If you don't know anybody in that group, Google them. I'm mentored by JLo. Okay, she doesn't know that but she mentors me. (Hazel and Lesley laughs) ...That's amazing! I want to have like, you need to have like a ... like a sticker or when you put those on the bumper sticker. It's like mentored by JLo.That's right. That's who mentors me ... JLo, Oprah and Jesus Christ. That's what mentors me. So ... (Lesley: It's a great mentorship group) not do that. And then your third, is celebrate your small wins, you, well, we are always evolving and expanding. So our goals change and grow. And then if you're always just changing, you're going up in it and up in it, then you never feel like you quite get there and that you're successful that (Lesley: Yeah) you've been successful. So celebrate the small things and if it is like opening your second location, then celebrate that you even had that creation of that thought, "Wow, I first I never even thought I could have one business. Now I'm thinking of a second business," celebrate the thought, celebrate with your friends.You are 100% accurate on that. I couldn't agree more. And there's so much studies on behavior science that like, "Celebration is so key," our brain pays attention to what we're excited about. The CEO for Pink, she, I just see her in an interview, and she was going in to an FDA approval thing for their, their product. And it was like they got rejected the first time, which was like, just so scary. And they went in they actually appealed it. And the day before the appeals where they had to be like ready to answer all the questions, they partied, they celebrated before. And so it is something that is so key. And y'all she sold that business for $15 billion. So and then got it back. Anyways, that's another story. But like miracle, this is the thing. Miracle mindset is like so so. Oh, we could just keep talking but I just want to ... do you have more things today. Sorry.You're really advanced there because now you're saying, "pre Party," which I love that. And I was saying celebrate. You know when you ...It's a thought. Yeah. And I'm like, "I'm like party before?" Sold! (Lesley laughs)I love it. Yes, yes. That's the advanced version. (Lesley: Yeah) ... we're where we're at, we're beginners, where we are creating a vision. Which we're adding a new environment and celebrating the small wins.Celebrate the small wins. I'm, I am so about that when OPC we just I like say just celebrate even logged in and press play. Even if your kids took you off your mat, or your dog went crazy, just celebrate that you actually open your computer, you logged in, you press play, you skipped all the websites and all the things that could have gotten you there. And that is worth celebrating because your brain will want to find ways to come back to that party. So Hazel, these are such great tips and also just an incredible inspirational story that that I can't wait to, I'm so glad I got to share it because it's really amazing. I'm grateful that Joanna introduced us. Thank you so much for being here. everyone listening please do me a huge favor, screenshot this tag @hazelortega_official, and @be_it_pod with your takeaways. Because the thing is, is if you're believing this way and you're dreaming this way and you get your friend to do it, and they're friends to do it then we stop having people who are scared all the time around us telling us we, we can't do it. (Hazel: It's very very true.) Thank you. Thank everyone for listening. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 40:45  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 40:52  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad Crowell 40:58  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 41:07  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 41:18  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

‘As long as you need to be able to draw a straight line, hopefully rulers will have a place in the world.' In the final episode, host Nihal Arthanayake is joined by Senior Production Manager at Ordnance Survey, Jim Goldsmith, and Copy Services Assistant at the National Railway Museum, Chris Valkoinen, to explore the long history of the ruler. Journey to ancient Sumer where you'll find the oldest surviving ruler, explore how measurements were a point of conflict in the French Revolution, and discover the role of Alexander Hamilton (from the musical!) in bringing technical drawing skills to Britain. This episode was inspired by some of the rulers in the Science Museum Group Collection. Our incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives. A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. Find out more about this episode on our website. You can discover more stories about the everyday objects around you in our Everyday Technology series, and find out why the kilogram was redefined in 2019 in this blog post. Follow the Science Museum on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. You can discover more about the history of Ordnance Survey on their website, and research our technical drawing archives at Search Engine at the National Railway Museum. You can pick up copies of Chris Valkoinen's Railways: A History in Drawings from late August 2021. Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. You can support this podcast and our museums by donating online. If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk.

They quietly whir and ping away in our kitchens, heating up food and the odd cold cup of tea - but behind these unassuming boxes of plastic and metal lies a remarkable story. In this episode, host Nihal Arthanayake is joined by food stylist and recipe writer Mima Sinclair to explore the rise of the mug cake, and curator Liz Bruton who reveals how the origins of the microwave are not so innocent… This episode was inspired by microwave ovens in the Science Museum Group Collection. Our incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives.  A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. Find out more about this episode on our website. You can discover more stories about the everyday objects around you, including the history of kitchen appliances on our website. This episode features an Amana Radarange Touchmatic microwave oven and Randall and Boot's original cavity magnetron valve. Follow the Science Museum on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. You can support this podcast and our museums by donating online.  If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk.

Around 800 million people across the world are menstruating right now, using a variety of products and methods to deal with their blood. But accessing these products can be a challenge, even today. In this episode, host Nihal Arthanayake speaks to curator Rebecca Raven about the fascinating stories behind the menstruation products many of us use, while Dr Suba Thiyagalingam discusses period poverty, taboos and why we should talk more about periods. From the Roman empire to the first world war and from sanitary belts to modern mooncups, you'll learn how people dealt with periods in the past, discover the impact of disposable products on the environment and hear about the possibilities of a more sustainable future.     This episode was inspired by a mooncup and tampon in the Science Museum Group Collection. Our incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives.  A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. Find out more about this episode on our website. You can discover more stories about the everyday objects around you, including menstruation products. Read about the sustainable items recently added to our collection and the life of sanitary belt pioneer Mary Kenner on our blog.    Follow the Science Museum on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. You can follow Dr Suba on Instagram and listen to her wonderful podcast In Hysterics.   Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. You can support this podcast and our museums by donating online.  If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk.

Household chores are an unavoidable part of everyday life. For thousands of years a broom was enough, but by using the humble vacuum cleaner we changed our homes forever. In this episode, carpet sweeper expert Laura Humphreys takes us on a journey through the remarkable history of the vacuum cleaner, while conservator Kate Perks describes the care taken to clean delicate items on display at the Science Museum. Hear how the first vacuum cleaner was invented, why we should call them Spanglers not Hoovers, how the spring clean began and what housework can tell us about the world around us. This episode was inspired by Booth's red trolley vacuum cleaner and the Hoover constellation in the Science Museum Group Collection. Our incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives.  A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. Find out more about the items in this episode on our website. You can also discover more stories about the everyday objects around you, including on vacuum cleaners. Follow the Science Museum on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. You can follow Laura Humphreys on Twitter and find out more about Globalising Housework, her fascinating book on housework. Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. You can support this podcast and our museums by donating online.  If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk.

Our guest is Matt Locke, whose previous Unofficial Partner appearance remains one of our most popular ever episodes. Matt is the co-founder of Storythings, a consultancy specialising in the understanding of audiences and the entertainment formats that attract them across a variety of spheres from entertainment to cause marketing and the public sector. Clients include the BBC, PBS and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Before founding Storythings in 2011 Matt worked for over a decade in senior digital roles at Channel 4 and the BBC, including as Head of Innovation at BBC and Head of Multiplatform at Channel 4. He also started the Public Media Stack project, and is writing a book about the history of attention metrics, part of which is the focus of today's conversation. Matt thinks we need a different way of thinking about personal data, starting with the metaphors we use to describe it. As ever with Matt, that's just a way in to a rabbit hole of a conversation that questions much of how we think about fans, digital platforms and the purpose of a football club.If you like the podcasts you'll love the Unofficial Partner newsletter, that goes direct to the inbox of thousands of senior executives across the global sports business every Thursday. To join them, sign up via unofficialpartner.com 

Microphones have changed the way we hear the world. From the experiments of Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Alva Edison, through the birth of rock and roll to the explosion of podcasts and video conferencing during the COVID-19 pandemic, microphones have become integral to our modern lives.   In this episode, National Science and Media Museum curator Annie Jamieson takes us on a journey through the surprising story of the microphone, while host Nihal Arthanayake and air traffic controller Adam Spink reveal how microphones are essential to their working lives.  Listen and discover how microphones changed the direction of pop music and amplified political voices, why smaller is not always better, and how spider silk might be used in the microphones of the future.   This episode was inspired by the BBC Marconi AXBT ribbon microphone in the Science Museum Group Collection. The episode also features a carbon granule microphone and lip microphone. Our incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives.  If you would like to uncover more about how sound is created, how it moves and how we hear it, explore the National Science and Media Museum's Sound Season this summer.   A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. Find out more about the items in this episode and read the transcript on our website, you can also discover more stories about the everyday objects around you. You can support this podcast and our museums by donating online.  Follow the National Science and Media Museum in Bradford on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. Follow @NATS or visit www.nats.aero to find out more about the work of air traffic controllers.  Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk.

The wonder material graphene can be found in any pencil, but for years scientists couldn't isolate its incredibly thin layers. Andre Geim and Kostya Novoselov won the Nobel Prize in 2010 for doing just that, using little more than their curiosity and sticky tape. In this episode Science and Industry Museum curator Sarah Baines reveals how thinking outside the box, making a frog levitate and sticky tape helped scientists isolate the thinnest and strongest material ever discovered, while luxury gift wrapper Rebekah Chol shares her advice on the best ways to wrap your gifts. Listen along with our host Nihal Arthanayake to the story of how graphene's incredibly thin layers were first peeled away and uncover how its remarkable properties might transform our world. This episode was inspired by the sticky tape dispenser used to isolate graphene in the Science Museum Group Collection. This incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives. A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. You can watch Andre Geim share his story in this talk recorded at the Science and Industry Museum and read about our graphene exhibition and Manchester's impact on the study of atoms on our blog. Find out more about the items in this episode and read the transcript on our website, you can also discover more stories about the everyday objects around you. You can support this podcast and our museums by donating online.    Follow the Science and Industry Museum in Manchester on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. Follow luxury gift wrapper Rebekah Chol on Instagram. Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk.

We know so little about the ocean, but a simple bath toy helped us understand it better. Dive into the story of what happened when 30,000 bath toys washed overboard and how these cute plastic critters helped scientists uncover the mysteries behind ocean currents with our host Nihal Arthanayake. In this episode, curator Alex Rose reveals the epic ocean voyage taken by ordinary bath toys, while beachcomber Tracey Williams shares her interesting finds on the Cornish coast. You'll hear stories of flotsam and the global beachcomber network and discover more about the ocean and our impact on it.    This episode was inspired by Friendly Floatee bath toys from the Science Museum Group Collection. This incredible collection contains more than 7 million items which illustrate the impact of science, technology, engineering and medicine on all our lives. Find out more about the items in this episode and read the transcript on our website, you can also discover more stories about the everyday objects around you. Follow @sciencemuseum on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for more insights into the collection and use #ABriefHistoryOfStuff to join the conversation on social media. Follow @LegoLostAtSea to see more of Tracey's fascinating beach-combing finds. A Brief History of Stuff is a Storythings and Science Museum Group production. Each episode features a story inspired by incredible items from the Science Museum Group Collection. Subscribe to A Brief History of Stuff wherever you listen to podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes. To help others discover A Brief History of Stuff, please rate our podcast. If you have an idea for a future episode or want to share your thoughts on our podcast, please email us via podcast@sciencemuseum.org.uk. If you've enjoyed listening, you can support this podcast and our museums by donating online. 

What are your desires, goals, and cravings? In this episode, Libby Swan takes over as host and brings four of us together to discuss our desires. Grace Steite is Head of Program Management at Square’s Creative Studio and has recently been working from Ireland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gsteite/ Anjali Ramachandran is the Director of Storythings and Co-Founder of Ada’s List: https://twitter.com/anjali28 Libby Swan runs digital agency PRDXN: https://prdxn.com/ ** Find the book "Strategy Is Your Words" and 100 strategy classes at Sweathead here: http://www.sweathead.com

A conversation with one of the Directors of Storythings, Matt Locke. We discuss digital audiences, attention patterns, formats, shifts in behaviour, and loads more.Matt has held senior positions at Channel 4 and the BBC, been a curator of a gallery, set up and run digital art programmes, and attend Glasgow School of Art in the early 90s. He has a fascinating perspective on content and audiences and his blog is well worth a read https://howtomeasureghosts.substack.com/

From sport and music, to films, radio or literature, every part of the culture industry is defined and shaped by the metrics we use to measure the audience for them. But who decides what metrics to use? This is a question posed by today’s guest Matt Locke, the co-founder of Storythings, and someone who I’ve been trying to get on the podcast since we started a year or so ago. Matt is one of the most interesting thinkers on our relationship with media, and he has written a series of essays called How To Measure Ghosts. Before starting Storythings in 2011, Matt worked in Digital Media for over two decades. He was Head of Innovation at BBC New Media from 2001, then moved to Channel 4 where he was Commissioning Editor, Education, and later Head of Multiplatform.

From sport and music, to films, radio or literature, every part of the culture industry is defined and shaped by the metrics we use to measure the audience for them. But who decides what metrics to use? This is a question posed by today’s guest Matt Locke, the co-founder of Storythings, and someone who I’ve been trying to get on the podcast since we started a year or so ago. Matt is one of the most interesting thinkers on our relationship with media, and he has written a series of essays called How To Measure Ghosts. Before starting Storythings in 2011, Matt worked in Digital Media for over two decades. He was Head of Innovation at BBC New Media from 2001, then moved to Channel 4 where he was Commissioning Editor, Education, and later Head of Multiplatform.

From sport and music, to films, radio or literature, every part of the culture industry is defined and shaped by the metrics we use to measure the audience for them. But who decides what metrics to use? This is a question posed by today’s guest Matt Locke, the co-founder of Storythings, and someone who I’ve been trying to get on the podcast since we started a year or so ago. Matt is one of the most interesting thinkers on our relationship with media, and he has written a series of essays called How To Measure Ghosts. Before starting Storythings in 2011, Matt worked in Digital Media for over two decades. He was Head of Innovation at BBC New Media from 2001, then moved to Channel 4 where he was Commissioning Editor, Education, and later Head of Multiplatform.

Season 1 is officially wrapped and we’re so overwhelmed by the wonderful feedback the show has received. Listen here as Laura and Ndidi share highlights and audience reactions to the season.     A special thank you to everyone that has taken the time to engage, tweet, rate and review us. We’ve seen all your comments and we’re excited that you love the show as much as we love making it.  Socials: Laura McInerney Ndidi Okezie Go With Me On This Credits: “Go With Me On This..." is a Storythings production   Series producer is Sarah Myles   Executive producer is Hugh Garry   Supported by Pearson UK Schools   Presented by Ndidi Okezie and Laura McInerney

The final episode of our pilot series is on the difficult and often taboo topic of Knife Crime. In this emotional episode, Ndidi argues that ’Schools cannot be expected to solve knife crime', whilst Laura passionately seeks to convince her otherwise. This episode throws up a few surprises for both Ndidi and Laura as they try to change each other’s minds. Which side of their fiery debate will you come down on? This episode is not to be missed. Listen and then tell us what you think on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram.    Our guest experts, helping Laura change Ndidi’s mind are multi-award winning entrepreneur and founder of The Safety Box, Nathaniel Peat, and Kiran Gill, CEO of The Difference, a charity that trains specialists leaders to reduce school exclusions. Socials: Nathaniel Peat Kiran Gill Laura McInerney Ndidi Okezie Go With Me On This Credits: “Go With Me On This..." is a Storythings production   Series producer is Sarah Myles   Executive producer is Hugh Garry   Supported by Pearson UK Schools   Presented by Ndidi Okezie and Laura McInerney  

In this episode it’s Laura’s turn to take the stand and defend what some see as unthinkable. In this heated conversation Laura believes that there are other ways to prepare children for the world of work than careers education, and that there are better ways to use the school's time. It’s a tough task, but Laura can be very persuasive, so will she be able to convince Ndidi and this episode’s guest to go with her on this? And will she be able to convince you? Listen to the episode and tell us on Twitter.       This week’s guest experts are Tristram Hooley, Chief Research Officer at the Institute of Student Employers, and Carl Fazackerley, Head of Sixth Form and Aspirations at the Ark Woolworth Academy.    Social: Tristram Hooley  Carl Fazackerley    Ndidi Okezie  Laura McInerney  Go With Me On This      Credits: “Go With Me On This..." is a Storythings production   Series producer is Sarah Myles   Executive producer is Hugh Garry   Supported by Pearson UK Schools   Presented by Ndidi Okezie and Laura McInerney

In this episode, Ndidi argues that the mainstream media are the biggest influence on the brand of teaching. Is Ndidi’s ‘brand’ of debate going to swing Laura and guests around to her way of thinking? And will she be able to convince you? Listen to the episode and tell us on Twitter.    This week’s guest experts are Lord Jim Knight, Chief Education Adviser at Tes, member of Lords and founder of Xrapid, and Hannah Wilson, Executive Head Teacher of Aureus High School and Aureus Primary School, co-founder of WomenEd, and co-author of the book 10% Braver.    Social: Lord Jim Knight Hannah Wilson   Ndidi Okezie Laura McInerney Go With Me On This   Credits: “Go With Me On This..." is a Storythings production  Series producer is Sarah Myles  Executive producer is Hugh Garry  Supported by Pearson UK Schools  Presented by Ndidi Okezie and Laura McInerney

In this episode, Laura argues that parents should leave the educating of their child to the school. Is she going to be able to sway Ndidi and guests around to her way of thinking? Will she be able to convince you?    This week’s guest experts are Mark Lehain, Head of Parents and Teachers for Excellence, and Sonia Meggie, award winning diversity consultant and founder of Inspirational YOU.    Social: Sonia Meggie Mark Lehain Ndidi Okezie Laura McInerney Go With Me On This   Credits: “Go With Me On This..." is a Storythings production  Series producer is Sarah Myles  Executive producer is Hugh Garry  Supported by Pearson UK Schools  Presented by Ndidi Okezie and Laura McInerney

Having previously worked as an assistant editor at publishing company Scholastic, in 2017 Aimée joined forces with co-worker David Stevens to launch their own inclusive, independent children’s publisher, Knights Of. With a focus on publishing books that reflect a more diverse spectrum of stories and characters, Aimée joins us on the podcast this week to talk about the journey they’ve taken so far, the realties and challenges of setting up shop, and share her advice on working as a creative partnership. ... This episode of Creative Lives was recorded at The Story, a one-day conference organised by content studio, Storythings. It was presented by Marianne Hanoun and the editor was Ivor Manly. Lecture in Progress is made possible with the support of a number of brand partners – they include Google, Sky Creative Agency, Colophon Foundry, G.F Smith and The Paul Smith Foundation.

Matt Locke tells a good story. He does, after all, run The Story conference, and his content studio Storythings helps businesses including Google and the BBC tell better stories. Right now he's fascinated by attention: how we measure it, and how it's changing.  In this episode we bring all that together. We discuss why stories are so important, how they work and how not to mess them up, and we talk about how attention is changing in the digital age and what that means for anyone creating content, particularly authors of books.  Intelligent listening, with a side order of practical inspiration.  

GeekGirl Meetup is very excited to bring you our first ever podcast, a new series called 'GeekGirl Meets', where we sit down with amazing women in tech to find out more about their careers, how they got to where they are and what inspires them. In our first episode, we were joined by Gemma Milne, Creative Lab Technologist for Ogilvy & Mather. Originally from Scotland, Gemma in her own words is a "creative science-nerd obsessed with technology, design, startups, Irn Bru and pi". Gemma is an ex-Maths Student, Investment Banker, Door-to-door Fundraiser and Chef. Blogging about science and technology and an active member of the Women in Tech London community. You can follow Gemma on Twitter at https://twitter.com/gkmilne1 Resources mentioned during the podcast: • Fraggl: http://www.fraggl.co.uk/ - daily, ad / tech / culture • Fish Food: http://www.onlydeadfish.co.uk/ - weekly, tech / culture • Other Valleys: http://tinyletter.com/anjali28/ - weekly, startups / tech • Brain Pickings: http://www.brainpickings.org/ - weekly, culture / inspiration / fun • Farnam Street Brain Food: https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter/ - weekly, culture / books / inspiration • 5 Things on Friday: http://whatleydude.com/tag/5things/ - weekly, ad / tech / culture • Storythings: http://storythings.com/newsletter/ - weekly, tech / culture / inspiration • Azeem Azhar: The Exponential View: http://azm.io/thenextnext – weekly, tech / culture / opinion • The Conversation: https://theconversation.com/uk/newsletter – daily, arts / business / tech / politics / academia • WIRED Awake: http://condenast.msgfocus.com/condenast/wired/awakesignup/index.html – daily, tech / science • WIRED Weekender: http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-weekender – weekly, tech / science / opinion • Tech City News: http://techcitynews.com/subscribe/ - Monday & Friday, tech / events / startups • Aeon: http://aeon.co/magazine/subscribe/ - weekly, tech / science • Kurzweilai Daily: http://www.kurzweilai.net/ - daily, science / tech • Charged: http://char.gd/ - weekly, tech / culture / startups • Nautilus (scroll to sign up bit): http://nautil.us/ - Thurs & Sun, science • Tech.London (scroll to sign up bit): http://www.tech.london/ - weekly, tech / startups / London community • Data Innovation Centre: http://www.datainnovation.org/about/newsletter/ - weekly, data / tech / policy • Real Future: http://tinyletter.com/realfuture - daily, tech / future / inspiration • Smithsonian Mag (scroll to bottom): http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ - weekly, science / innovation (you can choose other topics) • Dark Matter: http://www.bealmighty.com/dark-matter/ - weekly, insight / systems thinking / design / inspiration • Strands of Stolen Genius: http://strandsofgenius.com/ - weekly, inspiration / future / tech / insight • The One Thing: http://tumblr.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7f1173894d91ef410b1046b14&id=02890eceb9 - weekly, inspiration / future / creativity / fun

For this third episode I caught up with my friend and award winning media professional Hugh Garry in London. I met Hugh on a trip to Tanzania with The Great Football Giveaway a few years ago, and since then he organises a different adventurous and/or purposeful trip every year. He is a director at Storythings, a studio decidated to helping businesses and organisations find new ways to tell stories. Before that he worked at the BBC Radio 1 as a creative producer for a long time, and he was also a DJ for a long time. It was a great conversation and I hope you enjoy listening! A few links to some of the information mentioned, for reference: Hugh Garry Storythings The Great Football Giveaway & Our trip to Tanzania Stefan Sagmeister TED talks BBC Shoot the Summer Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull Royal Historical Society Hammer House of Horrors, The Silent Scream Information doesn't want to be free, Cory Doctorow Blendle, a radical experiment with micropayments in journalism Car Insurance startup charges by the hour Brewdog Nanny State John Ashdown, Guardian Sports Journalist (1 beer / day challenge for 365 days)