Disorder

In Alex's penultimate episode as an official Disorder cohost, she and Jason discuss her decision to step back from co-hosting due to the overwhelming chaos in the world and the emotional toll it takes. Plus: they unpack the struggle to maintain empathy in a disordered world, the rising fear of deportation, cancellation, political violence, censorship, enemies lists, and their implications for democracy. And – as they Order the Disorder – they look at the importance of maintaining professional integrity, while dealing with emotional challenges. They also explore strategies for coping with the chaos of modern life. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Read about Georgia's struggle for democracy and slide into authoritarianism and how it mirrors our own in the USA: https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/06/08/i-was-not-fierce-enough-georgian-activists-brutal-confession-as-democracy-collapses/ Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc Read ‘Donald Trump's Los Angeles Military Deployment Is an Assault on American Democracy' - https://bylinetimes.com/2025/06/10/donald-trump-los-angeles-military-deployment-assault-on-american-democracy/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Lenin apparently never said, ‘There Are Decades Where Nothing Happens and Weeks Where Decades Happen'. We are clearly living through the latter. Arthur and Jason attempt to untangle the latest: from the Iranian attack on the US airbase in Qatar to Trump's declaration of forever peace to end what he is cleverly calling the 12 Day War. Arthur and Jason rally in violent unity for Mega Ordering -- whether you advocated for Obama's ‘Iran Deal' or supported Trump's tearing it to shreds, whether you love Benjamin Netanyahu or think he is an evil genius, whether you supported Trump's Beautiful Bunker Busting against Fordow or see it as an illegal and reckless gamble, all sane centrists must now advocate for Western unity in ending the wars in Gaza and Iran. The power balance of the Middle East has been fundamentally reconfigured. It is uniquely favourable for peace. As Arthur and Jason try to Order the Disorder, they discuss if the Europeans can help get us there and why Bibi appears hellbent on spoiling his own achievements. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Iran fires missiles at US base in Qatar, Trump calls for peace: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-weighs-retaliation-against-us-strikes-nuclear-sites-2025-06-23/ Watch How The Iran Israel War Could End - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fymBJbsBDfI  Arthur's excellent substack Time to learn about Iran's separatist movements: https://substack.com/home/post/p-166505834    And our Substack, Were the Iranians forewarned? why are the markets so placid? What happens if Hormuz is closed? https://natoandtheged.substack.com/publish/posts/detail/166535764?referrer=%2Fpublish%2Fhome  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Trump promised to end the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, yet here we are – months later – and seemingly no real progress has been made towards peace in either regions. In the meantime, Trump and co were also seeking deals across the Middle East, including a new nuclear deal with Iran. How did that go? It ended in full scale War! Is the Art of the Deal dead? Is Trump a fool? Or is he more of a master negotiator than is immediately apparent? Did he actually manipulate the Iranians in a way that Biden never could have? To discuss this – and the intricate relationship between human psychology and the politics of negotiations – Jason was joined on June 10 by Ken Dekleva. A former senior US Dept of State physician-diplomat, CEO of Blackwood Advisory Solutions LLC, and Author of The Russian Diplomat's Wife. Ken and Jason discuss the role of human psychology in Trump's negotiations involving Ukraine, Russia, and Iran. Plus: they unpack the influence of Steve Witkoff within Trump's inner circle, the complexities of negotiations in the Middle East – and whether Team Trump is likely to get any sort of deal with powers like Iran who wish to appear uncompromising. Listening to this discussion post Israeli Attack on Iran is actually super interesting as it shows the interplay btw negotiations and war in that region. And as they Order the Disorder, they touch on the future of U.S.-China relations in the context of AI and global power dynamics, and the need for a strategic approach to negotiations. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Ken's Book, The Russian Diplomat's Wife - https://www.thecipherbrief.com/book-review/i-spy-a-love-story Listen to our previous episode with Ken - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/94c9f3ec23902d3f606bffb43dc39928  Watch Does NATO Have A Future? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ouF6cVUJjY  Read profile of Steve Witkoff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/05/steve-witkoff-putin-russia-ukraine-diplomat/682805/  Read Arthur Snells Substack on the Ukraine drone attack - https://arthursnell.substack.com/p/operation-spiders-web-opening-pandoras?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=web  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the weekend, waves of missiles were launched back and forth by Iran and Israel – killing civilians, damaging oil refineries, and causing tremendous humanitarian disaster. Iran willy nilly lobbed bombs at population centres while the Israelis targeted key bits of infrastructure. In either case, the international community stood by – seemingly unable to stop the Disorder. So what can be done? In this episode, Jason Pack and Jane Kinninmont recap the weekend's events – exploring what role the key international actors like, Trump, the G7, or India can play in providing an off ramp. Jane and Jason discuss the contradictions in Trump's stance, the role of the G7 and India as potential mediators, and the risks associated with a full regime change in Iran. Plus: could Israel actually lose this war or its population tire of being confined to bomb shelters at night?  Then as they Order the Disorder, Jane and Jason provide their predictions on how it all might end. They disagree agreeably on whether Israel's war aims of destroying the enrichment facility at Fardow now need to be achieved first or if it is possible to go back to the negotiating table directly. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Sohrab Ahmari - Iran's Devastating Hubris - https://unherd.com/2025/06/irans-devastating-hubris/  Analysis for Ynet by Raz Zimmt who is one of Israel's leading experts on Iran, at INSS - https://www.ynetnews.com/opinions-analysis/article/rj6csjsqeg  Richard Nephew: Can Israel Destroy Iran's Nuclear Program? Foreign Affairs - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/can-israel-destroy-iran-nuclear-program  An initiative by 21 Iranian and Israeli scholars, writers and artists calling for a ceasefire - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1DmH16adeqbmc3FO1596QVYf0PnVYfr_TDG2pc2njobk/edit  Israel-Iran War: 10 Dead, Around 200 Injured In Iranian Strikes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKsJQW4uWxY  Will The U.S. Deal Iran its Final Blow - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000713035101 Explainer: what we know so far in the Israel-Iran conflict - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/16/israel-iran-conflict-what-we-know-so-far-explainer   Markets are shrugging off the Israel-Iran conflict. Some strategists warn of complacency - https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/16/markets-could-be-underpricing-risks-of-israel-iran-conflict.html  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Overnight, Israel attacked several of Iran's nuclear sites and killed the Islamic Republic's top military leaders, as well as assassinating the Supreme Leader's key advisor on nuclear issues, Ali Shamkhani. This comes two days before the US and Iran were supposed to resume direct talks on finding a diplomatic agreement to curb Iran's nuclear programme, which Shamkhani had publicly supported. Jane Kinninmont and Jason discuss why has war come now, in the middle of Trump and Witkoff's diplomacy? Jason explains: it is likely because surprise and going on the offensive are more beneficial now than they have been in the last century. The duo break down the big picture implications of how the recent Ukrainian strikes on Russian nuclear planes and the ongoing Israeli strikes on Iran showcase how warfare has just rapidly changed from a period which favours static and prepared defense (the Cold War and Post-Cold War periods) to a period (The Enduring Disorder) in which warfare has changed to favours creative and imaginative offense. Our current military technology and intel (esp AI) will promote more instability and favour aggression over defense. Also the key thing to keep in mind is that the Israelis had prepared this attack for years and had actually delayed it and felt they needed to get it done before it was too late. Jason also predicts Iranians will have to asymmetrically retaliate... could be against US or Sunni Gulfi targets in the region (refineries/embassies) or Jewish/Israeli targets in Europe/the Globe. In short, we are entering a new phase of the Wars of Disorder. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: For the NYT's coverage of kinetic developments and Overviews: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/06/12/world/israel-iran-us-nuclear  For an excellent audio overview of what sites were attacked and why now-- Emergency Episode: ISRAEL AT WAR WITH IRAN - With Ronen Bergman: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000712721731 This attack has been long prepared: CIA analyst who leaked Israeli military plans gets three years in prison - The Washington Post https://apple.news/ABFn0haZjROuV8HqU_Ezsug Why can't we just have global order, and civility on the Tube: https://www.ft.com/content/cfb73bfe-fb42-4fd1-8b73-a125fd35e1a0?accessToken=zwAGN3LKTcoYkdPPtzv--0JP0dOLc6El_TXhoA.MEQCIG07rU5VCnoJ70yjPQ85Yr2K3YVq65g_R1jNE0NXa1dyAiBuosNEkyWwxJu499tazJwRojNLWZgq9iJmfvfLfBN5tQ&sharetype=gift&token=8dc84b36-5e95-4856-9c28-e6d884595132 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At different engagements throughout the month, NATO allies will meet in Brussels and the Hague to discuss Ukraine and defense spending – with Trump's team putting pressure on the Europeans to up their spending to 5% of GDP. But with the Americans wavering on the alliance as a whole, and these unrealistic spending targets: Can NATO survive? To find out, Arthur Snell speaks with Sten Rynning, professor and director of the Danish Institute for Advanced Study, University of Southern Denmark, and author of ‘NATO: From Cold War to Ukraine, a History of the World's Most Powerful Alliance'.  The duo discuss the origins and evolution of NATO, the significance of Article 5, NATO's complex relationship with France, and the challenges faced during the Afghanistan mission. Plus: the contentious issue of NATO's eastward expansion in the wake of the fall of the Soviet Union, and the Alliance's role in maintaining Order in the Post-War era. And as they conclude the discussion, they explore the future of European security architecture, the importance of America's role in NATO, and – to Order the Disorder – the need for a cohesive European defense strategy. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Sten Rynning's book, NATO: From Cold War to Ukraine, a History of the World's Most Powerful Alliance - https://www.londonreviewbookshop.co.uk/stock/nato-from-cold-war-to-ukraine-a-history-of-the-world-s-most-powerful-alliance-sten-rynning  Watch The Paradox of the Anti-Semitic Boulder attack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7zAO_5CtfE  Listen to Arthur's Behind The Lines Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell/id1704344656  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From Gaddafi's Green Book, to Mao's Little Red Book, to Hitler's Mein Kampf, ideological autocrats have frequently spelled out in plain sight their perverse world views and long-term plans to confront their adversaries and upend global order. Rather than engaging in deep study of the thoughts of Qadhafi, Saddam, the Ayatollahs, or Mao, our leaders have traditionally not taken the statements of our ideological adversaries seriously enough. From Obama, to Biden, and even Trump – leaders in the West have long misunderstood what drives Putin's Russia. They have wondered about Putin's hidden agendas and secret plans, rather than reading his published ones. Putin essentially told us he was going to invade Ukraine in his writings and statements. How is it then, that major leaders throughout the West could be caught off-guard and surprised when he did? There is actually a manifesto of the Russian deep state's ideology – a collection of books called Project Russia. And yet almost no one has heard of it and it is not yet translated into English. It might be the clearest indicator of Putin's ultimate goals. To find out more, Jason is joined by Dave Troy, an investigative journalist covering the intersection of technology and democracy. He is currently the publisher and editor of America 2.0, a news site focused on the future of democracy. Dave also hosts the podcast Dave Troy Presents. Jason and David discuss the continuity of Russian intelligence networks from the Soviet era to the present and the incompatibility of oligarchs and democracy. Plus: they unpack 'Project Russia'-- an ideological framework that outlines strategies for undermining Western democracy, the concept of Russian Cosmism, how these ideas intersect with Silicon Valley futurism, and are shaping the West in unexpected ways. Finally, as they Order the Disorder, David suggests a new coalition of democracies united behind promoting Order and confronting the Deliberate Disorders. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Watch Does Germany need to embrace Nationalism? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIwVwI7mP5E Watch Will German defence spending make Trump happy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVwZsukFK9g Basic stuff on Project Russia and its origins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Institute_for_Strategic_Studies Visit America 2 News - https://america2.news David's Writing in the Washington Spectator https://washingtonspectator.org/category/wide-angle/ David Troy's Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dave-troy-presents/id1610914569 Clarence Streit - Union Now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Now https://dn790008.ca.archive.org/0/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.262135/2015.262135.Union-Now.pdf Marlene Laruelle - Russian Nationalism: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/oa-mono/10.4324/9780429426773/russian-nationalism-marlene-laruelle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Friedrich Merz officially at the helm, Germany is entering a new era. But with the AfD breathing down his neck – the country is actually more internally Disordered than outsiders may realise. We ask: could the answer be a new – inclusive – brand of nationalism?To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Will Wilkes: Bloomberg News correspondent in Germany and co-author of ‘Broken Republik: The Inside Story of Germany's Descent into Crisis'. The pair discuss the current state of Germany, discussing how Germany's historical context – not just WWII but also the impact of the financial crisis and the refugee influx – has shaped its present situation. Plus: Germany's role in European security and the challenges posed by the rise of the far-right party, AFD.And as Jane and Will Order the Disorder – they discuss how to create a cohesive German national identity – could it be fostering unity by creating new community celebrations? Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Check out our recent YouTube ‘The DC Jewish Museum shooting: The Disorderly illogic of it' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BaWtQ5bH-Q&t=2s  Show Notes Links: Broken Republik (English edition): https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/broken-republik-9781526679161/  Totally Kaputt (German edition): https://www.piper.de/buecher/totally-kaputt-isbn-978-3-492-07328-8  Friedrich Merz is no unifier – he may deepen Germany's divides (The Guardian): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/05/germany-unifier-chancellor-divide-friedrich-merz  Germany's identity crisis is 80 years in the making (Bloomberg):  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-10/germany-s-political-center-challenged-by-afd-russia-china-and-trump?sref=ttOZ5TVM Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Disorder is a show where we look for historical parallels to better understand our current age of Global Enduring Disorder… It is also a show where once and a while we stumble across novel and yet explanatory parallels like the idea that the problems of Weimar Germany have gone global and sometimes we even get to interview world famous scholars who have come up with these novel parallels and have brilliantly extracted useful kernels about the interconnectivity of different crises, especially as pertains to institutional weakness, deliberate disorderers, and the rise of populist would-be strong men. Today, Jason Pack is joined by Robert Kaplan: a New York Times bestselling author whose famous books Balkan Ghosts, the Coming Anarchy, the Arabists, and The Revenge of Geography have been extremely influential in developing the concept of the Enduring Disorder. As part of our partnership with the New Books Network, we discuss his latest book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis. Robert and Jason discuss the rise of populism, the impact of globalization, and the decline of institutions and leadership. Plus: the significance of constitutional monarchy and the current decline of the major global powers. And as they Order the Disorder – they look at how the failure of the neo-populists will hopefully lead to more trust in experts, and how the Weimar republic can teach us lessons. Quote of the episode ‘The more abject the disorder, often the more extreme the tyranny to follow, and that brings us to Weimar's last chapter' Producer: George McDonagh Disorder is also now part of the Evergreen Network! For more visit https://evergreenpodcasts.com/disorder Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links: For more on the New Books Network visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder  For more on Robert visit https://robertdkaplan.com/  Get Robert's book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis https://www.amazon.com/Waste-Land-World-Permanent-Crisis-ebook/dp/B0D2W1B519/  Listen to Ep3. The Rise of the Neo-Populists https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/0c55bf63f1175d94d6a508eb72e8a84f  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

To best Order the Disorder, we love hosting live shows with our partners at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) and showcasing the great range of talent that they have on staff. Jane and Jason were joined for a live recording on May 14 by TOM KEATINGE, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRE FOR FINANCE AND SECURITY AT RUSI. The trio started off tackling Sanctions: the role and use of Western Sanctions before Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022; how the use of sanctions has changed since Russia's full-scale invasion, particularly on this side of the Atlantic; what does this mean for the rest of the world; and how this expansive use of sanctions is reordering global finance.  And then moved on to the question of Markets…. and how they hold governments to account. Jason genuinely believes that the markets may be our last hope to save American democracy and that they can do what the supreme court and congress are supposed to do but cannot.  Finally, we couldn't discuss finance and security without mentioning the Donald's favourite word in the English language that word that he seems not to realize comes directly from Arabic, *Tariffs*.  We tried to unpack what really are tarriffs; how we know they didn't work with Smoot Hawley; what does Donald Trump think tarriffs are. The main take away of the discussion overall was: The failure of economic tools of coercion such as sanctions and tariffs to achieve their stated aims and the power of 'markets' to reassert order.  It was a well attended live show with over 75 guests in RUSI's beautiful library… pls come join us for the next one in the Autumn. And more importantly right now! Pls pls join our paid for substack to hear all the beautiful listener questions! Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work and to listen to the listener questions which are cut from this free episode - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links:  We are trying to grow our YouTube channel. Pls check out this rather racy video and subscribe to the channel, Is Gary Lineker an Anti-Semite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdi4vVGyCkM  Relevant RUSI sanctions work can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/projects/sanctions-and-illicit-finance-monitoring-and-analysis-network-sifmanet  A recent article challenging the Russia maritime sanctions status quo can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/tapped-out-it-time-revisit-oil-sanctions-russia  A recent article arguing for action on the Russian central bank assets can be found here: https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-central-bank-assets-ukraine/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

FIRSTLY, PLS COME TO OUR LIVE SHOW. NOW OPEN TO ALL DISORDER LISTENERS Wednesday MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. You can sign up here: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html  NOW TO THIS EPISODE: In Trump's first 100 days he has disordered almost everything: from freedom of speech on campus to global trade to affairs of war and peace. And yet, despite his threats to abandon Ukraine, and actual denials of provision of certain forms of intelligence and anti-aircraft equipment, the frontlines have largely held. In fact, it now appears that Trump lacks the ability to force Ukraine to make concessions that it doesn't want to make, namely over Crimea. So, is there more Order and hope to be found in Ukraine than is immediately apparent? To find out, Jason Pack is joined by Mark McNamee. Mark moved to Kyiv in October 2023 in order to start the Ukraine Business News (UBN) Network, with the mission to aid foreign investors in navigating the business environment of Ukraine and drive Ukraine's economic recovery and reconstruction. He is also host of the podcast "History in the Making: The War in Ukraine”. Mark and Jason discuss: the current state of the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War, with a particular focus on the resilience of Ukraine's economy, its innovative use of drone technology and how Ukraine could become a global leader in defense technology going forward.  Plus: the implications of the U.S.-Ukraine minerals deal as truly game changing, the role of Europe in supporting Ukraine, and whether Ukraine's potential EU membership can offset lack of potential for it to become a NATO member. And as they look to Order the Disorder, Mark proposes the creation of a European Defense Tech Fund to support Ukraine's recovery and defense capabilities. Producer: George McDonagh Executive Producer: Neil Fearn Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links:  Read this new report, just published by international human rights foundation Global Rights Compliance, exposing Russia's disinformation campaign - https://globalrightscompliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Manufacturing-Impunity.pdf  Read more about the minerals deal https://www.politico.eu/article/us-donald-trump-volodymyr-zelenskyy-ukraine-parliament-minerals-deal-approved/  Ukraine Business News - https://ubn.news UBN Network - https://ubn.network/  Podcast History in the Making: The War in Ukraine - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/history-in-the-making-the-war-in-ukraine/id1752915858 The Ukrainian Action Heroes Rehabilitation Program teaches Ukrainian veterans with PTSD to ski and provides psychological support:  You can support their work with Ukrainian veterans at: www.UkrainianAction.com Arthur Snell in conversation with Romeo Kokriatski: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ukraine-and-america-the-great-betrayal/id1704344656?i=1000706415200 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

FIRSTLY, PLS JOIN THE SUBSTACK TO COME TO OUR LIVE SHOW NOW OPEN TO ALL DISORDER LISTENERS Wednesday MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. You can sign up here: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html     NOW TO THIS EPISODE: As Russia seeks a maximalist deal to secure its gains in Ukraine via negotiations with the Trump Administration, Putin is still trying to spread even more Disorder globally.     Are the Russians, in fact, the top table Disorderer globally? And if so, why? What internal domestic politics are driving that Disorder?    This week, Jason Pack is joined by Emily Ferris, a Senior Research Fellow in the International Security Studies department at RUSI, specialising in Russian domestic politics. Before joining RUSI in 2018, Emily worked at Control Risks - a London consultancy firm - as a Russian security and politics analyst, advising clients conducting business in Russia.     Jason and Emily discuss the complexities of Russia's internal dynamics, its infrastructure conundrums, its role as a disordering power, and whether there is genuine domestic opposition within the country.    Plus: Railways, Ports, Siberian governorships, Putin's negotiation tactics with the Trump administration, Russia's territorial ambitions, and the ideological components driving its actions on the world stage. And as Emily and Jason close the conversation, they discuss the future of Russia post-Putin and – to Order the Disorder – Emily explains her view on importance of cultivating serious academic expertise in understanding domestic Russian affairs.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For a special edition of the podcast, we hear a conversation between Jason and Andrew Keen on his KeenOn podcast. They discuss: is the American Dream Dead? Can you truly reinvent yourself in the US compared to Europe? And is there still hope for America going forward?    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  To get tickets to our RUSI event on 14th May visit: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html     Get the KeenOn podcast at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keen-on-america/id1448694012   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

JOIN OUR SUBSTACK TO COME TO THE DISORDER LIVE SHOW MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. INFO IN THE LINKS BELOW   NOW TO THIS EPISODE: Alex and Jason take listener questions that explore the chaotic political landscape shaped by Trump. Our brilliant Mega Orderers have asked about: What are Trump's true goals and how aligned are they with Russia; where is this going to end; and how should functioning democracies respond?     Bouncing off listeners' ideas, Alex and Jason discuss: new forms of ‘spheres of influence' imperialism; how Trumpian advisors, like the influencer Rasputin Laura Loomer, recycle Russian talking points;  could Canada, the UK, New Zealand and Australia work together to forge an alternative order? Is crypto just a vehicle for corruption? And how do you deal with switching from driving on one side of the road to the other?    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:    Disorder Podcast Live: Ordering the Global Financial Disorder  17:30 – 20:00 BST;  14 May 2025     Join us for a live recording of the Disorder Podcast with Tom Keatinge, Director of the Centre for Finance and Security at RUSI IN LOND AT 61 Whitehall  To attend become a paid for member of the Ordering the Disorder Substack here and then follow the RUSI prompts to attend: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-1730-may-14?triedRedirect=true    Listen to Arthur Snell's podcast, Behind The Lines, with Jonathan Terra: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-crisis-in-the-atlantic-alliance-ep-2/id1704344656?i=1000702371956   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As Trump's trade war heats up and his anti-NATO rhetoric continues, America's allies are having to face a new reality: the global superpower can no longer be relied upon. As core allies like the EU, UK and Canada recalibrate, what does that mean for America? And what does that mean for America's traditional European allies who rely on the U.S. for their defence?    To discuss the future of NATO and Five Eyes, Jason is joined by longtime friend of the Pod, Kori Schake. She has lived her entire professional life advocating for the Transatlantic Alliance and American global leadership. She started her career as NATO desk officer at DoD under GHW Bush and is now Director of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).    Kori and Jason look at what might happen if America further withdraws from the world and abandons its traditional allies; what happens next in Ukraine; if Trump has a real peace plan; and how his cabinet members are acting like a megaphone rather than as genuine advisors. The duo look at scary scenerios: like what happens if the US tried to kick Canada out of the Five Eyes Intelligence sharing partnership and why Trump's allies drive his policy choices towards the extremes.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support us as we try to support NATO and Five Eyes - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  Hear Kori previously on Episode 6 NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9472a8b7d262dd9fb0cd9827e8947964     Read Kori's piece in The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/02/intelligence-agencies-weakened/681711/     Check out her views on Signalgate: https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/the-wrong-signals-the-proper-role-of-a-defense-secretary/     And hear her on AEI's ‘What the Hell' Podcast talking US Defence policy: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wth-a-european-supreme-allied-commander-of-nato/id1467993804?i=1000701043889   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Europe and the US are increasingly having differing approaches to everything from free trade to free speech to combatting disinformation to defence to the role of the judiciary. What does that mean for Global Order? Or rather – in our mad mad mad mad world – what does this mean for the extent of Global Disorder?    In this episode, hosts Alexandra Hall Hall and Jason Pack are reunited in person in DC. Jason talks of his misadventures on Capitol Hill – and relates anecdotes he has picked up about the DOGE sledgehammer, Republicans bullying Canadians, and the post-apocalyptic feeling of the place. Jason and Alex anchor the episode around the divergence btw the US and Europe on issues of: Democracy, Misinformation, Corruption and Fraud; National Security/Foreign Policy; and Economy/Tariffs.    They delve into the way the political climate ‘feels' in the US under Trump's administration, and the differences in judicial accountability of major political figures between the US and Europe – looking at the Le Pen case in particular. Jason expresses his mad admiration of France and Sweden.    Plus: could civil disobedience grow in the US? Are Trump's policies being decided by non-experts who launder Russian misinformation like Laura Loomer – a new Tiktok influencer Rasputin? And can Kier Starmer be bold enough to help us Order the Disorder? And what can Sir Keir learn from Canada's Mark Carney who seems naturally gifted at standing up to Trump. So, ELBOWS UP, dear Mega Orderers.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support what we do - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  Read Alex's interview with Tom Malinowski: https://bylinetimes.com/2025/03/22/why-the-democrats-must-start-fighting-back-against-trump-and-musk/     Read Trump's firing of NSA chief is ‘rolling out the red carpet' for cyber attacks: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/04/trump-fires-nsa-cyber-command-timothy-haugh-00273859     Read Trump Has Already Botched His Own Bad Tariff Plan https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/04/trump-negotiation-tariff/682300/     For more on Laura Loomer: Far-right activist who met Trump before he fired NSC officials: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly8y27dwgpo   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Corruption, corruption, everywhere corruption. And no attempt to stop it in sight. As Trump and his cronies get rich from cypto, dismantle government, and propose their companies fulfilled outsourced contracts, the meta analysis of the new administration appears plain and simple: The tariffs, the strategic crypto fund, meme coin, it is all just corruption out in the open.     If it is so plain for all to see, how are they getting away with it?    To find out, Jason is joined by Frank Vogl. Formerly a foreign correspondent for The Times (UK), and then a senior official at the World Bank, Frank set up Transparency International in 1993, and then co-founded the Partnership for Transparency Fund in 1998. These two global organizations are at the forefront in the fight by civil society against corruption. Now, Frank is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and the author of many articles and two books on global corruption – ‘The Enablers' and ‘Waging War on Corruption'.    In their discussion, Jason and Frank delve into the overt corruption of various decisions early in the 2nd Trump Administration, providing a focus on the role cryptocurrency plays in this corruption. Then, they look at the dismantling of anti-corruption mechanisms, and the transformation of the Republican Party into a vehicle for Trumpism and mafioso crony enrichment of Trump's allies. Then: they analyse the complicity of Western nations in enabling corruption, and the economic implications of these actions.    Finally, as they Order the Disorder, Frank pushes for the establishment of an international anti-corruption court, and argues that European governments can and should step up to help fight back against this corruption.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  For more on Frank's work visit - https://www.frankvogl.com/news     For more on Transparency International - https://www.transparency.org/en/     Get Frank's book The Enablers: How the West Supports Kleptocrats and Corruption - Endangering Our Democracy - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enablers-Kleptocrats-Corruption-Endangering-Democracy-ebook/dp/B09JGL62L1/     Get Frank's book Waging War on Corruption: Inside the Movement Fighting the Abuse of Power - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waging-War-Corruption-Movement-Fighting/dp/1442218533/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On 3 June 2024, Synnovis, a provider of pathology services to the NHS in London, detected the first stages of a ransomware attack. The ransomware quickly spread through Synnovis' networks, encrypting systems and stealing sensitive data. Not for the first time, a ransomware attack had become a matter of life and death.       The attack, which was later claimed by Qilin, a Russian-speaking cybercriminal gang, was a stark example of how cybercrime has become a national security threat. Attacks against hospitals, schools and businesses of all shapes and sizes have normalised what should be intolerable: cybercriminals, in many cases harboured by hostile states, regularly disrupting and extorting victims, causing misery in the process and creating disorder for the UK economy and society.    To help us understand this challenge, and as part of our ongoing series of episodes featuring top experts from the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), Arthur was joined by Jamie MacColl, a Research Fellow in Cyber and Tech at RUSI. Jamie's research focuses on the national security implications of cybercrime, including the relationships between hostile states and cybercriminals. He has given evidence on ransomware on more than one occasion to the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy and also represents RUSI at the Counter Ransomware Initiative, a multilateral grouping of more than 80 countries committed to combating ransomware. Prior to working at RUSI, Jamie worked as a cyber threat intelligence analyst in the private sector. When not working on cybercrime, he is the guitarist in the British band Bombay Bicycle Club.      They discuss the current state of ransomware, its scale and impact, the role played by rogue states such as Russia and North Korea, and the reasons for the lack of coordinated international  progress in combating the issue.   Finally, as Jamie and Arthur order the disorder, Jamie proposes moving our response to ransomware from the current failing law enforcement model, to an intelligence and counter-terrorism led approach.    Producer: George McDonagh   Executive Producer: Neil Fearn     Show Notes Links:    More on the RUSI Disorder partnership - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast     Become RUSI members for more of their brilliant content:  https://my.rusi.org/membership.html     Follow Arthur's pod Behind The Lines: https://open.spotify.com/show/4bpdB1iEN3irFueS5CMuq5     High-level summaries on ransomware as a national security threat: https://www.economist.com/international/2023/12/31/how-ransomware-could-cripple-countries-not-just-companies     Read RUSI piece The Rise of Ransomware as a National Security Threat:  https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/organised-cybercrime-rise-ransomware-national-security-threat     Read RUSI piece Beyond the Bottom Line: The Societal Impact of Ransomware: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/beyond-bottom-line-societal-impact-ransomware      Read about the links between cybercrime and state threats:  https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/issue-brief/untangling-the-russian-web/     Read RUSI article Ransomware: A Life and Death Form of Cybercrime https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ransomware-life-and-death-form-cybercrime       Read about the impact of ransomware on the UK: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/occasional-papers/ransomware-victim-insights-harms-individuals-organisations-and-society     Read Ransomware: A Life and Death Form of Cybercrime from RUSI: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ransomware-life-and-death-form-cybercrime   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can Britain and the EU step up to Trump's bullying and order the disorder via increasing sanctions and possibly confiscating currently frozen Russian assets and using them to fund Ukrainian defence? This is certainly the question of the day and we at Disorder tackle it via our first live show recorded on March 21 at the famous Frontline Club in London. Jason Pack was joined by Sir Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker, author of Punishing Putin.     The trio discussed the role of sanctions in deterring Putin, and whether the West can finally go further and use seized Russian funds. Plus: Trump's role – and if Europe (alongside Starmer and Carney) will finally step up to the plate. And they finish with listener questions addressing everything from what happens when Putin dies to if sanctions even work in the first place.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:    Hear our other recent episode with Sir Bill https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/84604876351c72eed9ce64fd4031a343     Hear our previous episode with Stephanie Baker https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/d478c812a95d36c7ee6bf7c7beef4ccf     For more on Stephanie visit https://stephaniebakerwriter.com/     Read Sir Bill's piece calling for Russian asset seizure:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14418689/UK-Europe-Russia-frozen-billions-Ukraine-noble-cause.html     And his article co-authored with a leading Ukranian lawyer, Yulia Ziskina calling for seizure of Russia's state assets: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-22/if-trump-cuts-ukraine-aid-the-west-should-seize-russian-assets     Watch United States has ‘abandoned Ukraine' | Bill Browder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImN1fFJKHIc  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the second part of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.    Please listen to Part 1 before coming to this episode.  In this conversation, Julia and Jason focus on how extreme ideas enter the mainstream and the implications of the concept of the ‘Overton Window' [more on that in the links below] for how the boundaries of acceptable political discourse change as ever more extreme ideas are articulated. Jason pushes Julia to draw on her undercover work among the incel community to explain their worldview and the centrality of the concept of being red-pilled.     And as they Order the Disorder, they discuss the importance of defending expertise in public discourse and Julia proposes an institution that could prevent people from falling into conspiracy theories.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  For an explanation of the Overton window visit https://theweek.com/102517/the-overton-window-explained   For more on Julia visit https://www.julia-ebner.com/speaker   For a great video about her life and experiences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4Kv6P6VII   Get Julia's book ‘Going Mainstream: Why extreme ideas are spreading, and what we can do about it' - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Mainstream-extreme-ideas-spreading/dp/1804183784   Read Jason's article, ‘A lizard person's guide to US election conspiracy theories' in the New European: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/   Listen: Episode 77 - The System is Rigged: Conspiracy theories and the revenge of the losers https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/cc41cbf3e1c05fb8a696e0faad151283 This is the second part of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.    Please listen to Part 1 before coming to this episode.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Extremist ideologies and the conspiracy vehicles that carry them are now heard throughout mainstream social and political discourse. Whether it's Trump parroting falsehoods about migrants eating dogs and cats or Robert F. Kennedy Jr. parroting debunked claims about how vaccines cause autism, extreme viewpoints cloaked in conspiracy theories are now frequently articulated by those in offices of power.     How has this happened? When did the extremes become mainstream? And what draws people to these radical ways of thinking in the first place? Then as we delve deeper why do extremists so frequently rely on conspiracy theories to articulate their political programs? Why don't they come out and just voice the radical or exclusionary political program directly? Why do they conceal it via complex conspiracy theories about Lizards, Pedophilia rings, and a Jewish plot to dilute the purity of the white race?    This is the first episode of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.    The duo delve into the intricate relationship between conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies. Analysing how conspiracy theories serve as a unifying force among various radical groups, by providing a framework for scapegoating and explaining grievances. Plus: the psychological appeal of conspiracy myths, their role in modern political movements, and the historical context that shapes these narratives    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  For more on Julia visit https://www.julia-ebner.com/speaker   Get Julia's book ‘Going Mainstream: Why extreme ideas are spreading, and what we can do about it' - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Mainstream-extreme-ideas-spreading/dp/1804183784   Read Jason's article, ‘A lizard person's guide to US election conspiracy theories' in the New European: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/   Listen: Episode 77 - The System is Rigged: Conspiracy theories and the revenge of the losers https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/cc41cbf3e1c05fb8a696e0faad151283   For a great video about her life and experiences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4Kv6P6VII     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special episode of Disorder, you can hear some of the highlights from our first ever live show event at RUSI. To start things off, Jason Pack was joined on stage by his fellow co-hosts, Alex Hall Hall, Jane Kinninmont and Arthur Snell. The panel discussed how they experience Disorder in their own lives, as well as what they perceive makes this historic period novel.     Then, Jane and Alex departed the stage, while Arthur and Jason were joined by Neil Melvin, RUSI's Director of International Security. The trio investigated if Trump actually has a grand strategy and is deliberately accelerating the long durée US pivot to Asia or if he is merely a strategic-less deliberate Disorderer. Then the trio looked at the role Europe plays in global security, while Neil and Jason had an agreeable -- and not even staged -- disagreement about the ideal position the UK can play in global security  – should the UK continue cozying up to the US? Or seek to counterbalance it by forging new relationships and convening a coalition of orderers?    Lastly, the recording ends with a Lord of the Rings-themed question from a Mega-Ordering audience member.  If you would like to hear the rest of the audience questions and have access to the full recording, please join the pay for substack.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (paid members can listen to the whole unedited event including listener q and a): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  More on the RUSI Disorder partnership - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast     Become RUSI members for more of their brilliant content:  https://my.rusi.org/membership.html     And From Neil Melvin Read:  Europe's attitude to Trump is dangerously naive. He demands action, not words: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/21/europes-attitude-trump-dangerously-naive-he-demands-action/     And for more on Neil's bio: https://www.rusi.org/people/melvin   Read Jane's piece about OSCE's potential role - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/its-time-to-use-the-osce/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Forget Christianity, Judaism, New Age Spirituality, and Buddhism, a new type of religion drives 21st century Western thought. It goes by the shadowy name of Neoliberalism: the commodification of everything; Markets and the private sector ascendent; The deliberate attempt to reduce – especially through privatisation and austerity – state power, regulatory capacity, and government's ability to influence the economy. Over the past few decades, from Thatcher and Reagan, to Blair and Clinton, the whole world was incentivized to embrace neoliberal reforms. The result? Our public services are crumbling. Governments have lost the ability to build roads and hospitals. Governments are no longer driving cutting edge innovation. And a new class of super rich neoliberal oligarchs – Musk, the Koch brothers, Bezos, Zuckerburg, and the cryptobros – are spreading Disorder.    To help us find governmental Order amidst all this privatized Disorder, Jason is joined by George Monbiot -- Guardian columnist and co-author of ‘The Invisible Doctrine: The Secret History of Neoliberalism (& How It Came to Control Your Life)'.    In their conversation, the duo chart the evolution of neoliberalism and how it has shifted core governance functions (like transport, health care, and security) from the public sector to private enterprises, leading to a new form of oligarchy. Plus: they look at the failures of centrist politicians to come up with compelling alternatives and they hypothesize about the psychological motivations of the wealthy elite.    Finally, as they Order the Disorder, they put forward the need for a new political narrative that emphasises community and solidarity - especially on a local level.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  Get George Monbiot and Peter Hutchison's book The Invisible Doctrine: The Secret History of Neoliberalism (& How It Came to Control Your Life) - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455534/the-invisible-doctrine-by-hutchison-george-monbiot-and-peter/9780241635902     For more on the New Books Network which runs lots of podcasts about every sort of topic - https://newbooksnetwork.com/     And for an NBN podcast on the historic origins of neo-liberalism check out: https://newbooksnetwork.com/neoliberalism       Read George's piece - Trump and Musk have launched a new class war. In the UK, we must prepare to defend ourselves - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/19/donald-trump-elon-musk-class-war-uk-us-oligarchies-democracy     Listen back to our episode with Harvey Whitehouse (start with P1) - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/36cb340116979a4aa2dfdca524988d27     And buy his book out now in paperback: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/451443/inheritance-by-whitehouse-harvey/9781529159158   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When it comes to Russia, Trump's America appears on the verge of a major foreign policy U-turn. A couple of weeks ago, Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator and lyingly claimed that Ukraine had started the war. Then there was the February 28 ‘Oval Office Ambush' heard round the world. Don't forget that after years of isolating and sanctioning Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, Team Trump met face to face with the Russian Foreign Minister in Saudi and now appears ready to do direct business with Russia and to be actively seeking to humiliate the Ukrainians.   Despite these worrying moves, at the moment, the U-turn remains hypothetical… all words, not yet binding actions. So… how seriously should we take this perspective shift? Does the ‘Vance/Trump Oval Office Ambush' change everything? And what are the implications for Europe and its allies if America actually switches sides to support Russia long term?   To discuss this perilous moment, we're joined again by Sir Bill Browder, a successful investor, a globally acclaimed author, and a famous philanthropist/humanitarian advocate. Browder's tireless advocacy for holding dictators and their henchman to account is widely known. He was a guest on the Disorder programme in Ep 26, a few days after his friend Alexei Navalny was murdered by Putin. [NB: the interview at the core of this episode was recorded on Feb 26 before the Oval Office Trump/Zelenskyy/Vance meeting.]     Today, Jason and Sir Bill discuss the transactional nature of Trump 2.0 and the seek to work out whether the recently announced Ukraine mineral deal actually amounts to a hill of beans. Browder emphasizes the unpredictability of the situation, the moral implications of Trump's proposed U-turn.   Finally: as they Order the Disorder, Bill and Jason discuss the practicalities of how to turn confiscate currently frozen Russian assets and use them to fund Ukrainian defence.   Producer: George McDonagh Executive Producer: Neil Fearn   Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to attend our March 11th event at RUSI): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/   Show Notes Links:   Jason's substack on the the Oval Office Trump/Vance ambush of Zelenskyy: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/he-may-not-be-a-russian-agent-but   For a podcast produced out of Kyiv and dedicated just to the War in Ukraine: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/history-in-the-making-the-war-in-ukraine/id1752915858   Watch Bloomberg Editor Javier Blas on the fact that Ukraine doesn't have any significant rare earths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=nqJ6Vgetyn8&t=23s&fbclid=IwY2xjawIuZ8ZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfHqQQ2oA1u0f9dwlY57utRKDAlMk3uustcJ_QaiEBTeO2Duhzu5d1guUA_aem_CogDpEa6G7WcwC-7R5q6DQ   Read the FT explainer of the US-Ukraine Mineral deal: https://www.ft.com/content/1890d104-1395-4393-a71d-d299aed448e6   Listen to our previous episode with Sir Bill Browder: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece    Read Sir Bill's piece calling for Russian asset seizure: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14418689/UK-Europe-Russia-frozen-billions-Ukraine-noble-cause.html   And his article co-authored with a leading Ukranian lawyer, Yulia Ziskina calling for seizure of Russia's state assets: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-22/if-trump-cuts-ukraine-aid-the-west-should-seize-russian-assets   Watch United States has ‘abandoned Ukraine' | Bill Browder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImN1fFJKHIc   For more on illicit funds and foreign interference, listen to our recent episode with Peter Geoghegan: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a7b4de27e0e05e297d97a505357d7050   Part 1 & 2 with Tom Burgis on the issue of UK's permissiveness over foreign political financing https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/e003625c25e8ce63dda398369bfea54b / https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/2ccf0f088b7679b5b053679466f6a42d Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, Jason and Alexandra answer some probing listener questions. They discuss the role of the UK in global politics, and the implications of Brexit. Dissect the challenges of maintaining progressive values amidst backlash, and the potential for Keir Starmer's leadership in navigating the UK's future relationship with the EU. They finish by talking about tax breaks for billionaires, and why following the money is important to understanding the Disorder we are living through.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack to get details of our March 11th event at RUSI: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:  As Trump and his cronies attempt to tear down all the checks and balances which have traditionally governed how the Executive relates to other branches of American governance, especially over the issue of impoundment, will the Courts or Congress genuinely stand up? If they don't, or are unable to, is America facing a genuine constitutional crisis? Or is the issue not so much a constitutional crisis but a coordination one - and because we're in an era of peak disorder – Congress, the Courts, the Dems, popular opposition, protesters, Lincoln Project people, business advocates of non-monopolistic competition – aren't able to coordinate coherently enough to make a difference? Also why are there not massive popular protests across America, or is now not the right time for them?    This week, Jason and Alex unpack these issues and more as they try to navigate listeners through the choppy seas of peak Disorder washing over the world. They reflect on the impact of recent Trump policies to defund USAID and undermine Ukraine, debating whether there's any real coherent end goal to these radical policies beyond strewing Disorder. They also debate whether Trump's America First agenda makes America stronger or weaker. Jason explains the importance of Russell Vought within Trump's team, while arguing that Neo-populism isn't actually about any real solutions or making America Stronger, but is merely about increasing the ‘Disorder and Distraction quotient' to keep the Neo-populists in power.    Meanwhile, Alex and Jason argue that the Democratic Party needs to coalesce around a single ‘leader of the opposition' type-figure to prosecute the case against Trump's actions. They also dive into Lala-land with their alter-egos, Xela Llah Llah and Nosaj Kcap. They finish not by Ordering the Disorder, but by diagnosing exactly why the world is living through peak Disorder.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to attend our March 11th event at RUSI): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  To examine the real architect of the Disorder, listen to the Today Explained episode about Russell Vought https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/today-explained/id1346207297?i=1000693687429     To grasp the constitutional implications of what is transpiring, listen to the excellent 538 podcast with Galen Druke interviewing constitutional law professor Peter Shane https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trumps-theory-of-presidential-power/id1077418457?i=1000693800713     Read more from RUSI: by Jack Watling ‘US Clarity Underscores Ukraine's Peril', https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/us-clarity-underscores-ukraines-peril    Also by Jack but in the Guardian: ‘As the US walks away, Europe needs to step up for Ukraine. But does it have the will?', https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/16/us-europe-ukraine-russia-peace-analysis     And from Neil Melvin (our guest on our March 11 live recording) ‘Securing Ukraine is the UK's Challenge, but It Needs to be Done Right', https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/securing-ukraine-uks-challenge-it-needs-be-done-right  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In Munich last weekend, J.D. Vance shocked Europe with his speech castigating Europeans as having the ‘wrong values' and not being ‘democratic'. Meanwhile, Trump and co. are doing the very democratic thing by being in Saudi Arabia and negotiating with Putin over Ukraine behind Zelenskyy's back – possibly presaging ‘a deal' that will be struck excluding Ukrainian input at all.     As this episode drops, European leaders are finally trying to get out in front of events by meeting in Paris in an emergency summit, to counter with their own ‘peace proposal' that would actually be beneficial for Ukraine's future. Disorderly much?    In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont tries to navigate these complexities in conversation with Jason Pack, as she brings us her personal reportage from last weekend's Munich Security Conference. During her visit there, we hear three on-the-spot interviews (Serhiy Leschenko, advisor to Zelensky's chief of staff Andriy Yermak; Todor Tagarev, former Bulgarian defence minister; and Ottilia Anna Maunganidze, head of special projects at the Institute of Security Studies) - discussing the shifting dynamics of US-European relations, the implications of Trump 2.0 on the Ukraine conflict, and the urgent need for Europe to reassess its defense priorities in light of potential US unpredictability. Plus: in an attempt to Order the Disorder, what can be done to foster unity among European nations?    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    Read more from RUSI: by Jack Watling ‘US Clarity Underscores Ukraine's Peril', https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/us-clarity-underscores-ukraines-peril    Also by Jack but in the Guardian: ‘As the US walks away, Europe needs to step up for Ukraine. But does it have the will?', https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/16/us-europe-ukraine-russia-peace-analysis     And from Neil Melvin (our guest on our March 11 live recording) ‘Securing Ukraine is the UK's Challenge, but It Needs to be Done Right', https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/securing-ukraine-uks-challenge-it-needs-be-done-right  For more on Jane's interviewees and their outputs:  Serhiy Leschenko, advisor to Zelensky's chief of staff Andriy Yermak - https://x.com/leshchenkos?lang=en  Todor Tagarev, former Bulgarian defence minister: his bio here - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/person/todor-tagarev/   And see his recent ECFR piece “prepare for the worst - four scenarios for Ukraine under Trump 2.0” -https://ecfr.eu/article/prepare-for-the-worst-four-scenarious-for-ukraine-under-trump-2-0/    Ottilia Anna Maunganidze, head of special projects at the Institute of Security Studies, headquartered in South Africa with offices in Senegal, Kenya and Ethiopia -  https://issafrica.org/author/ottilia-anna-maunganidze  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With a major war raging in Europe, a seemingly more expansionist Trump in the Whitehouse, and China's long held desire to invade Taiwan, is Britain prepared militarily?     It's hard to tell. The current Labour government is still refusing to set out in detail its plans for Defence, including when it might increase spending to 2.5% of GDP. Instead, we are left waiting for the publication of a new Strategic Defence Review. So are Starmer and co missing an opportunity to be mega Orderers?    To understand these issues and more, for our first episode in partnership with the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), we're joined by Matthew Savill. He's the Director of Military Sciences at the London-based defence and security think tank. His team focusses on understanding trends in modern warfare and its impact on military strategy, capabilities and planning. Before joining RUSI he spent over 20 years in national security roles in government, starting as an intelligence analyst, and later moving on to policy and operations, working in both the Ministry of Defence and the UK Cabinet Office, and on deployments in Iraq, the Middle East and Afghanistan.    Jason and Matthew discuss on the UK's role in defense and security, the challenges faced by the UK in military procurement and capabilities, and the need for the UK to maintain its status as a major global player. They compare the approaches in France and the UK, and whether we're in a potential pre-war era, and whether Britain needs to maintain independent military capacities.    As they Order the Disorder, they look at whether AI could be the way Britain becomes Mega Orderers, and Matthew leaves with a message for Starmer: invest in people.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  More on our partnership with RUSI - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast     Read Matthew's analysis, Starmer's New National Security Adviser: A Consequential Choice   - https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/starmers-new-national-security-adviser-consequential-choice     Read Matthew's piece, A Hollow Force? Choices for the UK Armed Forces - https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/hollow-force-choices-uk-armed-forces     Read The Disintegrated Review? Britain and the Ukraine Crisis by Matthew https://wavellroom.com/2022/03/14/the-disintegrated-review/     Our episode on AI with Marc Warner - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/3f615a6ab068a88f5dcd8d444dbbb60f     Our episode with Jonathan Powell - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/94c9f3ec23902d3f606bffb43dc39928   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We're entering a new age of political influence, where money generates attention, and attention generates influence. In this meta-verse, old fashion regulations about lobbying and advertising are no longer suffiecnet and people like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg rule the roost. So, what can be done?    To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by returning guest Peter Geoghegan, an Irish writer, journalist, and director of Democracy for Sale. The duo discuss: the pervasive influence of money in UK politics, how money buys attention and then indirectly influence, and this constellations implications for democracy. Peter tells Jane about the rise of super donors in UK politics and how social media algorithms spread Disorder.    To finish, they look at how to Order the Disorder. Peter pushes for transparency in governance, and tells Kier Starmer to put a spending cap on individual's political donations.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    Hear our Previous episode with Peter - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a50fd0d6c8ad45567cac6b47cf060d4e     Peter's website - https://www.petergeoghegan.com/     Peter's substack - https://democracyforsale.substack.com/     RUSI's Centre for Finance and Security specialises in the intersection of finance and global security. Their research includes work exploring the nature of the threat from global illicit flows, the harm they cause and how best to respond - https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/research-groups/centre-for-finance-and-security     Listen to Ezra Klein talking about the attention cycle - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/democrats-are-losing-the-war-for-attention-badly/id1548604447?i=1000684362481     Read Anne Applebaum's piece on Musk and political interference in Europe https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/03/musk-tech-oligarch-european-election-influence/681453/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Disorder is a podcast where we hate being right. Totally hate it. Jason truly loves being wrong.  But fudge and fiddlesticks. Seems he is right again. The thing with neo-populists is that they don't so much have policy agendas and goals, they just seek to disorder the universe by say – proposing to fire in a haphazard way 2 million U.S. government employees, or forcing out top FBI officials, or appointing officials for Senate confirmation to head government agencies that have overtly said they want to dismantle those specific agencies, or by randomly proposing to deport Palestinians from Gaza to Jordan against their will.    On today's Emergency Cast, Jane and Jason spontaneously convene to deal with peak disorder and delve into all the interlocking crises, dead catting, plane crashing, impounding, tariff barrier erecting, and AID stopping that has come to a head during Trump's Second Week of his Second Term.    In the Ordering the Disorder segment, Jane wonders how much of the world will respond by trying to figure out how to decouple - slowly, gradually, cautiously – from the U.S. because U.S. politics does not exactly seem at its most stable. And Jason muses that Canada, Mexico, the UK and the EU could have chosen to present a united front to Trump, but appear to have elected not to.        Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links       This is a most compelling podcast from the 538 about the ways in which the Trump Presidency threatens the constitutional balance of powers and how the issue of Impoundment is at the very core of the structural and legal threat of Trumpism to 're-do' the underlying structures of America: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/fivethirtyeight-politics/id1077418457?i=1000687276109     From the Washington Post, ‘Senior U.S. official exists after rift with Musk Allies of Payment System': https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/01/31/elon-musk-treasury-department-payment-systems/    From CNN, ‘Inside 45 hours of chaos: The brief life and quick death of Trump's federal spending freeze': https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/29/politics/inside-brief-life-trump-federal-spending-freeze/index.html    From CNN, ‘Trump suggests his plan for Gaza Strip is to ‘clean out the whole thing”':   https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt/index.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawIJDhZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfyYNmWDBz3iKiscGQHjvHQx_ZfwOPriV_8VGZmlxTh1JhZ-_NiNKbntsw_aem_rjBE8gcyRVXKVXMhTc-mAQ     From Congressional Democrats, ‘Background on Unlawful Impoundment in President Trump's Executive Orders' https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/news/fact-sheets/background-unlawful-impoundment-president-trumps-executive-orders   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Jason and Alex tackle some probing listener questions. They return to a theme from previous episodes (especially the previous episode with Marcel Dirsus): whether today's autocratic regimes (China, Russia, Iran) are actually as strong as they appear or might be weaker than we imagine. In response to multiple listen questions on this theme, Alex and Jason debate the cultural and economic missteps of the center-left and the importance of addressing real voter concerns about the pace of social and culture change in the face of rising populism.    Then the Disorder programme pushes out the envelope a bit exploring: the significance of secrecy in intelligence and diplomacy, the political realignment of blue-collar workers, and the looming threat of a cryptocurrency bubble.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    For more on our Partnership with RUSI: https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast     Alex's article on the resemblance of Donald Trump to a Tituskhy: https://www.bylinesupplement.com/p/donald-trump-is-assembling-a-titushky     Listen to our episode on China's economy: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/eaa3d94ed88eb3142a9f4ed571fe4a1f     Listen to our episode with Marcel Dirsus: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/bcd89a117331e217c82af1d018e28d9e     Hear Jason on The Bunker talking about post-Assad Syria and the Middle East in the age of Trump - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bunker/id1496246490?i=1000685022934   Jason was interviewed about backgammon and Gambling regulation by Sigma one of the leading Magazines in the e-gaming space, Sigma: https://sigma.world/news/the-art-of-risk/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

During his second inaugural speech, Trump declared January 20th, 2025 as Liberation Day. His indoor inauguration kept the hoi polloi of the MAGA world literally out in the cold. Inside, the Rotunda was filled with billionaires and family members. Trump's speech screamed performative sound and fury. "For many years, a radical and corrupt establishment has extracted power and wealth from our citizens, while the pillars of our society lay broken and seemingly in complete disrepair." He then said without a hint of joking, “I was saved by God to make America great again.”  But beyond the pomp and circumstance, what meaningful actions is Trump taking in his first days in office?     Here at the Disorder programme, we try to help Order the Disorder by separating the performative sound and fury of Trump 2.0 from its actual meaningful actions. Jason's hunch is that much of Trump 2.0 will be Kabuki theatre, as many of Trump's so-called signature policies are things that he cannot enact as they violate the constitution, but a large implication of his overall programme is to foster deliberate disorder making the US completely different from other markets on things like EVs, oil and gas exploration, manufacturing, worker safety, and regulation, in general.    To break it all down, in this episode, Jason and Alex reflect on the implications of Trump's pronouncements, the combination of lofty Presidential rhetoric mixed with Trump's standard American carnage imagery, why previous POTUSs and VPs showed up for the Inauguration, and the impact of Trump's executive orders. They also look at the ceasefire in the Middle East and examine if similar tactics might actually work with Russia/Ukraine.     Plus: the depressing and corrosive precedent of Biden's pardons, the shift in Silicon Valley's political allegiance, the role of BitCoin and AI on the American economy, the dynamics between the UK and US, and the role of the UK in a Trumpian World… Why can't Starmer step up and be a mega Orderer?    To Order the Disorder, the pair suggest that Europe and aligned powers get their act together and start mega ordering, without the US in tow. The show concludes as Jason and Alex postulate that constraining Trump will not happen from external forces, but maybe just maybe there is a potential for the excesses of Trumpism to be contained or managed by internal forces within the Republican Party.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    For more on our Partnership with RUSI: https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast     More on Trump's pardons for Jan 6th rioters https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/23/opinion/trump-pardons-bolton-jan-6.html     More on the Hamas-Israel ceasefire https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/23/world/middleeast/hamas-gaza-israel-cease-fire.html     Hear Jason on The Bunker - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bunker/id1496246490?i=1000685022934     Jason was interviewed by Sigma one of the leading Magazines in the e-gaming space, Sigma: https://sigma.world/news/the-art-of-risk/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 2022, Nina Jankowicz was appointed to a brand new role within the US Government – Executive Director of the DHS's Disinformation Governance Board, tasked with tackling disinformation. Within weeks, she was the target of a mass disinformation campaign – driven primarily by Fox News – that put her life, family and career at risk.    In today's episode, Nina joins Arthur Snell to tell that story – and look at the role of dis- and mis-information around the globe. If the US under Trump turns into a deliberate disorderer in the information space, who will be left to order? There is an argument that medium powers like the UK, Brazil and the EU will hold the key to stemming the tide.    Nina is an expert on Russia, Eastern Europe and Ukraine, but in the early 2020s,  she became better known as an expert on disinformation. In 2022, she was appointed by  the Biden administration to the Disinformation Governance Board, part of the United States Department of Homeland Security. But after Fox attacked her personally, the role was pulled. Since then, she has worked in various NGOs and in other foundations, and her current work is with American Sunlight, which tries to counteract disinformation by providing clear information and research to Americans.    In her conversation with Arthur, she shares insights into the challenges of combating misinformation in the current political landscape, the role of media and big tech in amplifying disinformation, and the implications for democracy. Plus: the duo discuss shifting dynamics within the Republican Party regarding Russia, Elon Musk's influence, the rise of deepfake technology, and the gendered dimension to the violence that permeates online spaces.     And then as they try to Order the Disorder, they look at Brazil as a place where disinformation regulation is starting to work, the importance of information literacy, and what's been done educationally in Ukraine, plus – could smaller, stronger online communities be the answer?    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  For more on Nina visit https://www.ninajankowicz.com/     For a CBS explainer on what happened to Nina and the role played by Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=64&v=z6havT5C9_M&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2F     Follow Arthur's pod Behind The Lines https://open.spotify.com/show/4bpdB1iEN3irFueS5CMuq5     Read recent report from the American Sunlight Project on Deepfake Pornography Targeting Members of Congress https://www.americansunlight.org/updates/deepfake-pornography-targeting-members-of-congress     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A tentative ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas has been announced by the US and Qatar.  The deal would see a phased release of Israeli hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and an end to Israeli bombardments. If the first round of conditions are met, the cease fire should continue and culminate in further negotiations for additional swaps of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners. But what's next? Will it hold? And how do we get from this transactional bartering to longer term stability in the region?    To discuss this and more, Alex Hall Hall and Jane Kinninmont final co-host a podcast of their own. They (who both have on-the-ground experience in Gaza) discuss: the challenges of establishing trust between the conflicting parties; the fragility of the deal that is currently being agreed; and the need for Western leaders who are trying to leverage the sides for further progress to also emphasise with local populations' concerns.    Plus: does Trump's strongman diplomacy actually work?    As they Order the Disorder, the ladies discuss the potential for a new Palestinian leadership, the importance of political will/brinksmanship, and the need for a comprehensive approach to rebuilding Gaza – including addressing economic dependencies.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  Jane's Nov 2023 analysis on need for Europe to chart a political pathway out of the violence - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/europe-and-gaza-political-pathways-out-of-the-violence/    Jane's 2020 article on virtual dialogue with Palestinian youth - https://theelders.org/news/palestinian-perspectives-future    Jane slags off Jared Kushner's approach to “peace” in an oped for Haaretz during Trump 1 - https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2019-06-16/ty-article-opinion/.premium/jared-kushners-paradigm-busting-mideast-peace-deal-just-wont-work/0000017f-e9a9-d639-af7f-e9ffd4e00000    Read What Gazans Really Think of the War, Who They Blame, and What They Want to Happen Next by Alex https://bylinetimes.com/2024/09/20/gaza-hamas-israel-opinion-poll/     Polling from a youth-led Palestinian polling organisation:  https://institute4progress.org/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 2024, the Disorder podcast looked a lot at Ukraine, Syria, Israel-Palestine, India, Bangledesh, and even north Africa… but we didn't devote sufficient time to sub-saharan Africa. So what does Africa look like in the Age of Disorder?    To find out, Jason is joined this week by Professor Clionadh Raleigh. Cliona created Armed Conflict Location & Event Data (ACLED) which is a US-based NGO. She is also Professor of Political Violence and Geography in the School of Global Studies at the University of Sussex in the UK.    The duo discuss, how the Second Trump administration with its proposals for tariffs and increased tensions with China might affect Africa. And then muse on the roles of middle powers like Nigeria and Ethiopia in a disordered world, highlighting their internal challenges and regional influences.     Then they turn their attention to the civil war in Sudan, the impact of external forces like the Wagner Group in that region, and the future of American policy towards Africa amidst these challenges. And as they Order the Disorder, Clionadh suggests that we need for a nuanced understanding of local politics and the impact of external influences on African stability, and that women and girls need to be supported as part of this.    Plus, we announce the start of our new partnership with the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI). The world's oldest and the UK's leading defence and security think tank. As part of that partnership we will be featuring research and guests from their network, and regular live events at their base in Whitehall. To attend the first event on March 11th, pay for a Subscription to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  Read: Did Wagner Group prove an effective tool for Russian foreign policy? By RUSI https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/external-publications/did-wagner-group-prove-effective-tool-russian-foreign-policy    Read Has Sudan's Conflict Reached a Turning Point? By RUSI https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/has-sudans-conflict-reached-turning-point    More on Professor Clionadh: https://acleddata.com/team/prof-clionadh-raleigh/     Read ACLED's Raleigh Report from December 2024: https://acleddata.com/2024/12/19/the-raleigh-report-december-2024/    Read Semafor's Predictions for Africa in 2025: https://www.semafor.com/article/01/02/2025/africa-in-2025     RUSI experts in this region are, Dr Joana de Deus Pereira https://www.rusi.org/people/de-deus-pereira, Christopher Hockey https://rusi.org/people/hockey , Michael Jones https://rusi.org/people/jones    Read RUSI's paper, Conclusions Paper: Thematic Research Meeting on the Impacts of Disinformation Campaigns in the Sahel (Southern Neighbourhood) and Effects on Radicalisation and Extremist Movements in the EU: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/external-publications/conclusions-paper-thematic-research-meeting-impacts-disinformation-campaigns-sahel-southern   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With Trump due to be inaugurated in less than 15 days, it is high time to come to grips with his foreign policy vision as it can be gleaned from his cabinet appointments. The incoming cabinet appears isolationist, transactional, and lacking a coherent view of what an American-led global system should look like.     This begs the questions: Could Trump 2.0 symbolise a shift in the Republican foreign policy establishment away from the neoconservatism which has dominated it for four decades and towards a novel and novel approach to American foreign policy? Is this new approach filled with internal contradictions? And what do these countervailing wings of Trumpism mean for Trump 2.0 Administration's approach to American adversaries such as Russia, China and Iran?    To investigate, Jason is joined by Dr Alan Mendoza, founder and Executive Director of The Henry Jackson Society -- a Westminster think tank known for proposing bold and neo-conservative solutions to the crises facing Britain and the world.    The duo begin by reflecting on the historical significance of figures like Senator Henry “Scoop” Jackson(D-WA) and the historical inversions represented by Trump's isolationist and transactional approach to global order. Then: Alan and Jason embark on an around the world tour investigating the current structural weaknesses of Russia under Putin, the fragility of dictatorships in general, the growing threat posed by China, strategies for confronting it, and the importance of deterrence in global politics.    After the ad break Alan and Jason look at: Britain's historical and current role in the Middle East, asking, could Britain compensate for Trumpian aloofness by seeking to reassert a leadership in the MENA region? They explore the influence of Iran as a destabilizing force, the situation in Gaza, the challenges posed by Hamas, and the need for an activist and bold British foreign policy to draw on Britain's unique strengths and secure her interests.    As the Order the Disorder, Alan proposes that Britain should invest more in cultivating hard power, while Jason stresses the need for upping Britain's capacity in the sanctions space. Finally, if he were King for a day, Alan would established a new international institution just for functioning democracies – that could work adjacent to the UN – and act as a coordinating forum for the world's ordering powers.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  In this week's substack we will have extra audio content about Hamas disinformation about Gazan civilian casualties during the Israel-Hamas war    Show Notes Links    Watch/read interview with Alan about Putin: https://www.the-sun.com/news/13187114/putin-rule-power-russia-mafia/amp/     Read Restoring Deterrence: Destabilising the Iranian Regime by the Henry Jackson Society https://henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/restoring-deterrence-destabilising-the-iranian-regime/     Read Timothy Snyder on Trump, Russia and Ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/jan/01/timothy-snyder-trump-musk-russia-ukraine-putin     Listen to our episode on Canada's role in the world: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/601e6a1721995fa854010c309c11ab24     Listen to our episode on China's economy: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/eaa3d94ed88eb3142a9f4ed571fe4a1f     Listen to our episode with Marcel Dirsus: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/bcd89a117331e217c82af1d018e28d9e     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the Trump election win to the ongoing conflicts across the Middle East, Sudan and Ukraine… 2024 was certainly a year full of Disorder. But what about 2025? Is there any realistic hope that it could be more orderly? Well maybe there is! And maybe the time has come to take more seriously the *potential* advantages of certain Trump policy proposals. (or maybe not? hahahah)    In this episode, we continue our spotlight on Hebrew music as it is still Hannukah and the tune we start out with asks the question ‘What will happen in the new year? We have to wait and see'. Jason is joined by fan favourite Jane Kinninmont to discuss the past year: reflecting on the myriad challenges faced by Orderers. They dissect the most Disordering events of 2024 as well as providing some hypotheticals like the various dogs that didn't bark: the assassination attempt against Trump leading to an American civil war or a hot war between Israel and Iran emerging due to a miscalculation.    Plus: what is the background of Susan Wiles, who is she, what stock does she come from, and what is her likely role in the incoming Trump government (could she be a power behind the throne and a real orderer)? We also discuss the centrality of the immigration issue to the global neo-populist movement.    Meanwhile, Jason wonders: has the center-left got it all wrong? Have we been too biased on the pod in 2024 in cheerleading for Starmer and American centrists? This chain of thought culminates in some musings on Angela Merkel's leadership, and her missteps, and the influence of conspiracy theories in popular culture. The show ends predictability by our discussing how each of us can help to order the disorder in 2025, emphasizing the importance of civic engagement and individual empowerment to help drive positive policies.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/      Show Notes Links    For more about our Glaswegian Fan Favourite Jane Kinninmont: https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/person/jane-kinninmont/     And her recent fascinating article in The Times of India ‘Ayatollah after Assad': https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/ayatollah-after-assad/     Alex has written this great overview article about the situation in Georgia from her recent trip:  https://bylinetimes.com/2024/12/17/the-west-will-regret-abandoning-the-georgian-people-to-the-clutches-of-russia/    If you like the way the Disorder Pod sounds check out ‘Can a steel town survive if its furnaces are turned off? – podcast'  where the reporting and the audio production are done by our producer George McDonagh: https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2024/dec/19/can-a-steel-town-survive-if-its-furnaces-are-turned-off-podcast      For more of Yoav Oved's music visit his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/YoavSings/?locale=en_GB     Or instagram https://www.instagram.com/yoavsings/?__d=1       Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As 2024 draws to a close, Jason and Alex celebrate Chrismukkah (when Christmas and Hanukkah fall on the same date, which is actually a rarer occurrence than you might imagine). They feature some cantorial Hebrew music in the intro and some choral Christmas jingles in the outro. They share their families' Christmas traditions, exploring the differences between American and British celebrations. They also explore the make believe of the contrasting Christmas celebrations of their alter egos, Xela Llah Llah and Nosaj Kcap.    Plus:  Alex's recent trip to Georgia, highlighting the protests against the Georgian Dream government's cancellation of EU membership, and how the West should respond. Also: the plight of the Kurds in Northeastern Syria, the need for a jamboree international conference of aid and capacity building support for Syria, the importance of proactive Western leadership on issues like Georgia and Syria and the potential profound consequences of inaction.     And as they Order the Disorder, they express hope for positive change amidst global disorder. For Xmas Jason wishes for ‘Two NATOs on climate change, one NATO on tax havens, and a partridge in a pear tree,' while Alex wishes for ‘the EU to come up with a way to bypass Hungary and Slovakia and put sanctions on Georgia before the end of the year.'    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  Read more about the plight of the Kurds of Northeastern Syria- https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/16/world/middleeast/kurdish-forces-syria-turkey-isis-america.html    Alex has written this great overview article about the situation in Georgia from her recent trip:  https://bylinetimes.com/2024/12/17/the-west-will-regret-abandoning-the-georgian-people-to-the-clutches-of-russia/    And Arthur Snell has interviewed one of the leading experts on HTS and the Syrian anti-Assad jihadi landscapes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/inside-hts-what-does-al-jolani-want-and-how-will-they-rule/id1704344656?i=1000680598620    If you like the way the Disorder Pod sounds check out ‘Can a steel town survive if its furnaces are turned off? – podcast'  where the reporting and the audio production are done by our producer George McDonagh: https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2024/dec/19/can-a-steel-town-survive-if-its-furnaces-are-turned-off-podcast     For more on Evoke visit https://www.evokemusic.org/     For more of Yoav Oved visit his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/YoavSings/?locale=en_GB     Or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/yoavsings/?__d=1   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From its important but underrecognized role in the World Wars of the 20th century to its key advocacy for the UN system, humanitarian aid, peacekeeping, and international treaties, Canada has been a major player in the global ordering sweepstakes.     So what does Canada do when the world's largest trading relationship (Canada's with the United States) no longer necessarily connects it to a trustworthy nation? Can Canada step up and present itself as an independent leader of the free world and a ‘coordinator-in-chief' for other Ordering nations? Will hosting the G7 give Canada some stealth mega ordering mojo?    To discuss that and more, Jason is joined by Marci Surkes, Surkes served as Executive Director of Policy and Cabinet Affairs in the office of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. This turned out to be a very timely conversation as Canadian PM Justin Trudeau visited President-Elect Trump in Mar-a-Lago in late November and noted that Trump's proposed 25% tariffs would decimate the Canadian economy. In response Trump suggested that Canada was ‘ripping off America' to the tune of a 100 billion USD a year and that if Canada wanted tariff free trade it could become the 51st state. This sparked many viral memes.    Amidst this bizarre and yet terrifying backdrop, Jason and Marci explore the upcoming 2025 Canadian election, which may actually play out as a referendum on Trudeau's handling of the Trump presidency. They also discuss leadership challenges to Trudeau within the Liberal Party and the fraught relationship between Canada and India and the pivotal role Canada could play in Global Ordering as it takes on the presidency of the G7 in 2025.     Plus: could there be a budding bromance between Starmer and Trudeau? And as Marci and Jason Order the Disorder, they explore the need for more gender equality across politics and why medium powers like Canada can play a pivotal role on issues like security guarantees and NATO.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    Listen to an explainer on why Canadian politics has ground to a halt: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/stalemate-why-the-house-of-commons-has-ground-to-a-halt/id1621425319?i=1000677888744  Listen to Marci's appearance on a panel discussing what Trump means for Canada: https://paulwells.substack.com/p/the-panel-what-trump-means-for-canada?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=804175&post_id=151283084&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1ruvru&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email  Listen to our Ben Ansell episode about other elections: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/50e9a35e0737bb9d0ddf29460a199c37   Read profile of Melanie Joly: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/04/world/canada/melanie-joly-foreign-affairs-profile.html   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Assad has fallen! The Tyrant is no more! Long live the revolution!    There has been a genuine outpouring of jubilation among Syrians at home and abroad - even the ones working at the Syrian embassy in Moscow who ‘chose' to fly the rebel flag. But the international responses are messier - regional players talk of maintaining Syria's territorial integrity, while several countries welcome the new order with bombing raids (especially Turkey and Israel who are now operating inside Syria to weaken their enemies and occupy buffer zones). Meanwhile, even as Europeans ask whether jihadis will dominate the new Syria, the same European governments (notably Austria) are simultaneously drawing up plans to deport the Syrian refugees seeking asylum in their country -- because it must be safe now, right?    In this bonus episode examining the Post-Assad Syria: From Euphoria to Uncertainty, Jason is joined by our returning Glaswegian champion, Jane Kinninmont. She is just back from an international conference in Doha where she sat one row behind Russia's FM Sergei Lavrov.    Jane and Jason tell stories from their times in Syria… about sweets and about being spied on. They break down all things Syria. Trying to draw lessons from a disorderly past to an orderly future.    We examine: did Russia and Iran throw Assad under a bus? Several things changed in the regional calculus but - primarily they realized the game was up for Assad domestically. To save him they would have needed to commit major forces, and at a time when Israel might well have willing to join the fight to make sure that Iran lost - at least if Iran sent troops. And while those were clearly the major calculations, the “benefits” part of the Russo-Iranian cost-benefit analysis of propping up Assad had also dwindled.   Iran wasn't actually getting so many benefits from Assad -- who spent most of the year trying to stay out of the regional war, avoid confronting Israel and pursue normalisation with Arab states.     The episode ends with Jane and Jason Ordering the Disorder by concluding that the West and the Middle East alike were caught horribly unprepared. Still wounded by the experience of Iraq and Afghanistan, Western countries may shy away from lending serious capacity building assistance to a democratic Syrian led transition process - but fatalism is the wrong approach - the transition is more likely to be more peaceful and more successful if more political and economic resources are invested in it - especially by democratic countries willing to use carrots and sticks.     Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    The David Runciman Pod that Jane mentions explaining linear vs cyclical and non-linear conceptions of history: https://www.ppfideas.com/episodes/the-history-of-bad-ideas%3A-the-end-of-history    Jason's appearance on Monocle's The Globalist talking more about the Alawites: https://monocle.com/radio/shows/the-globalist/3495/play/     A great Special Briefing from my former colleagues at MEI about what's next in Syria: https://www.mei.edu/blog/special-briefing-after-assads-fall-whats-next-syria-and-region    Israel, Seeing an Opportunity, Demolishes Syria's Military Assets: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-strikes-syria.html    A visual timeline of the events: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/10/world/middleeast/syria-civil-war-rebels-timeline-assad.html     While international support is crucial, Syrians must lead their country's political transition: https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/12/while-international-support-crucial-syrians-must-lead-their-countrys-political-transition    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week was par for the course… We are living through Peak Disorder. Two democratic capital cities were convulsed by demonstrations trying to oust their governments. One Middle Eastern regime collapsed, while a neighboring war was paused.     We at the Disorder pod believe that events like the Israeli-Lebanese ceasefire, the fall of Syria to the rebels, the street protests in Georgia in response to claims the election was rigged, the protests in South Korea opposing attempts to impose martial law, the battleground issues of the Irish elections, the spontaneous collapse of the French government, and the pardoning of Hunter Biden are all interrelated. We are most certainly living through the Global Enduring Disorder. In this historic era, events in one part of the world ping pong around and interact in unforeseen ways with events elsewhere, without sufficiently coordinated responses from potential Ordering powers.    On today's episode, we're joined today by friend of the pod, fellow Georgia enthusiast, and former British Diplomat Arthur Snell. Arthur has recently hosted excellent pods on events in Syria and Georgia on his Behind the Lines podcast. (Links below) We recorded most of the episode after the Fall of Aleppo but before the fall of the Assad regime in total. Therefore, we will be having a bonus episode with Jane Kinninmont on Thursday delving into that in specific.    In this ep, Arthur and Jason survey all of these topics, explaining that because of the fundamental principles of our era of Global Enduring Disorder, previously stable looking places like South Korea, are becoming Disorderly. They discuss how memes and themes that are playing out in the UK and US are also rehashed in Ireland. They finish the show by trying to Order the Disorder – contrasting developments in South Korea with those in Georgia, concluding that state capacity and cultural solidarity is more vital now than ever.    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    Listen to Arthur's podcast episode about Georgia: https://pod.link/1704344656/episode/a654b790f75542d26710235d05c378d7     And his episode on The Fall of Aleppo: https://pod.link/1704344656/episode/08772c26e60e40496a2a235b491f561b     For deeper background to the Syrian Rebel's offensive: https://www.syriaintransition.com/aleppoherewecome     And how events in South Korea are connected to developments in Trump world: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/12/south-korea-martial-law/680864/     And the Irish elections:   https://www.breakingnews.ie/general-election-2024/hutchs-dail-bid-ends-with-him-running-away-from-pandemonium-at-count-centre-1702711.html     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do elections work anymore? 2024 was the biggest year of elections in human history. Major contests were held in the UK, US, EU, France, India, Japan, Moldova, Georgia, and elsewhere. Did these elections work? Were they free and fair? Did their outcomes actually represent the authentic will of the people? Is genuine electoral democracy with its checks and balances even possible in the mid-21st century?     Today's guest on Disorder, Ben Ansell holds the contrarian view that democracy is actually alive and well. He asserts that even if we are not happy with recent outcomes, we should still trust the process.     Ben Ansell is Professor of Comparative Democratic Institutions at the University of Oxford and Nuffield College. He was the 2023 BBC Reith Lecturer and the presenter of ‘What's Wrong With Democracy?' by Tortoise Media and ‘Rethink' on BBC Radio 4. His most recent book is ‘Why Politics Fails' and he writes the Substack 'Political Calculus'.     In the episode, Jason and Ben embark on an around-the-world tour to survey this epic year of elections and analyse the state of democracy globally. They look at the key features that have defined this cycle, especially anti-incumbency sentiments.     QUOTE OF THE SHOW ‘This is the only year, 2024, where in every single MAJOR WESTERN country, the incumbents lost votes. They didn't always lose office, but they often did, because when you're losing 5 or 10 % of votes in competitive systems, you're a goner. First off… it looks, if you look at John's FT graph [in the shownotes], things have just got more volatile over the last decade or so anyway. And so that might be just a change among voters, that voters have become more like consumers. I mean, we are all consumers [in our mind sets]. And in most of the countries that have elections in capitalist markets, we [are used to] switching goods all the time. And I suppose there's reason to believe that [moving forward] we might switch parties all the time.'    Jason and Ben delve deeper into the unique case of Georgia, where incumbents have managed to increase their majority despite global trends. The duo also cover the outcomes of the European elections, the implications of criminality as a feature rather than a bug of global neopopulism, and the roles of Russian and Chinese influence operations in election results across the world. The episode concludes with Ben – an optimistic mega-orderer by temperament and intellectual conviction – genuinely Ordering the Disorder by saying that Trump can, and will, be contained and that the institutions of American democracy can actually withstand another Trump term.    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    FT anti-incumbency graph/article: https://www.ft.com/content/e8ac09ea-c300-4249-af7d-109003afb893     Why Politics Fails https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/444113/why-politics-fails-by-ansell-ben/9780241992753     Rethink: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08gt1ry     What's Wrong With Democracy?: https://www.tortoisemedia.com/listen/whats-wrong-with-democracy/     Ben's Substack: https://benansell.substack.com   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Amidst post-election malaise and seasonal depression, Jason is thankful for the Mega-Ordering listeners who sent in their questions to his new address in a bunker underneath the hills of Hampstead (you can reach it by writing to him @ Disordershow@gmail.com). Esther asked ‘To what extent did the Dems actually pander to the woke agenda? Or is that just made up and trumped up by the Republicans since it helps them win points'; Annabelle in Atlanta, Georgia asks ‘Could Taylor Swift solve all the disorder?' while Kerry in the Republic of Georgia asks ‘despite being from rural Vermont, I now feel these days like I barely know America. I do not understand Trump voters. How do we bridge this divide on a practical level?'    Jumping off from these prompts Alex and Jason cover myriad topics including: the potential for conflict between China and Taiwan, whether JD Vance could become President before 2028, the ways we can incorporate the lessons of behavioral economics into political decision-making, and the role of the transgender issue in the recent election campaign. Plus: the challenges for liberal elites in truly understanding Trump voters, if Taylor Swift and other celebrities actually helped or hurt the Dems, and why even in these dark days, we can remain optimistic about the potential success of a collective effort to preserve democracy.        Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links    Learn more about the history of Thanksgiving: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thanksgiving-Day     And the Origins of Turkey: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/why-americans-call-turkey-turkey/383225/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have crossed through the looking glass – Up is Down, Disorder is Order, Vice is Virtue, Felony is a Positive, and Rape Convictions are a reason to get a cabinet position. With Trump unsurprisingly appointing disruptors to his administration, Global Disorder beckons. How did we get here? Seemingly because Biden wasn't bold enough in trying to assert order. Is Starmer making the same mistake?    In this episode, Jason and Alex discuss what will happen to the ongoing legal cases against Trump, the forthcoming Trump administration's attempts to disorder and dismantle American institutions and checks and balances, and the likely evolution of the Supreme Court. After a lengthy discussion of the initial proposal of Matt Gaetz's as Attorney General and his subsequent withdrawal, Alex introduces listeners to Xela Llah Llah, her Trump-voting alter-ego who lives on the other side of the looking glass and who will occasionally be coming on the podcast to explain politics from her point of view.    After some wise words from Xela which ‘help us empathize with the other side', Jason and Alex turn their attention back to the UK, looking at whether Starmer's appearance at COP means anything, and how (if at all) he can push to become a more prominent global leader on a range of issues. In a rather downbeat and informal Ordering the Disorder segment, we examine the future of multilateralism and the global political order (is there any such thing anymore?)    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  Matt Gaetz's Bio and why Criminality leads to loyalty: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000677307816     On Matt Gaetz's replacement Pam Bondi: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/21/us/politics/pam-bondi-attorney-general-trump.html     And for a Trump Cabinet Tracker: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/politics/trump-administration-cabinet-appointees.html     Also a link back to last week's episode discussing how Starmer should be bolder: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ep83-trump-derangement-syndrome-with-the-two-matts/id1706818264?i=1000677421360   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Post-Mortem autopsy continues. How could liberal elites have had eight and half years to prepare for the twenty thousand tonne train barrelling down the tracks right at them and not been able to take sufficient evasive action? Who are these clowns? Do they deserve what is coming? What can studying years of Brexit Fatigue, Orban Exhaustion, and Netanyahu Nihilism, teach us about both how this Trumpian travesty has happened and the likely disorderly evolution of peak Neopopulism in America? And what is the antidote to Trump Derangement Syndrome?  Jason needs a double dose.    In this episode, Jason is joined by Matt Kelly and Matt d'Ancona – the hosts of The New European's ‘The Two Matts' podcast. They discuss the abysmal state of the world and Keir Starmer's inability to lead with vision. They review and assess the rise of neopopulism in both the UK and the US. The conclusion is that the goose is cooked. Complacency and a lack of bold messaging has led to the evisceration of the centre-left globally. Jason even questions if he is of the centre-left anymore, concluding he may simply be a disillusioned and increasingly radical centrist. While the Two Matts share bon mot about recent horrific developments in Britain, Jason explores some lessons from Hungary and Israel, which may possibly shed some light on the likely future trajectory of neopopulism in America. Delving briefly into the shocking and depressing cabinet appointments trickling out of MAGA world, the Two Matts and Jason also reflect on the social legacy of the Trump era and its lasting impact on Western political discourse. In place of Ordering the Disorder (which may no longer be possible as Disorder has already won), The Two Matts answer lightening round questions about the most macabre moments of Trump-iness and some of the humorous aspects of the challenges ahead.    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  Get the Two Matts podcast - https://podfollow.com/2matts     Read the latest edition of the New European here: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/edition/the-beast-unleashed/     Read Jason's article, ‘A lizard person's guide to US election conspiracy theories' in the New European: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Disorderer-in-Chief is now President-Elect. We can't say we didn't see it coming. In fact, we predicted on the pod and on the substack that he was favourite to win. But as the post-mortems are bouncing around the internet, we must ask what one factor most led to this outcome: was it the economy, was it woke gone overboard, was it misinformation, was it the anti-incumbency mood? Which factors predominated in making Harris unelectable? And how did the Democratic party allow itself to be fooled again and fight the election on losing issues? And Were Americans fooled by false promises? And duped by misinformation about the issues?     And given Trump's resounding victory what is next – will he deport millions of Americans, launch a trade war that drives inflation skywards, and give Musk the keys to the regulatory castle to endlessly enrich himself – and will the American electorate care in 4 years' time?    In this episode, Alex and Jason discuss the major reasons underpinning Trump's win. Including: the cultural shifts in the United States, the fact that Trump's criminality and venality may actually be seen by many of his voters as a positive (i.e. they voted for him not despite the fact that he is a convicted felon but BECAUSE OF IT), and how the Republicans were brutally effective in their advertising and narrative crafting.    Amidst all the tumult, the Disorder pods co-hosts attempt to take stock globally and personally. Alex – a Brit turned American – and Jason – an American turned Brit – reflect on their own changing identities and how the result makes them feel in their guts. Plus: listener questions tackle topics like the future of Europe and NATO, could Trump change the constitution, could Trump actually deliver what people want, what about Bitcoin, and whether America could become yet another Russia-style oligarchy.    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links  Read Alex's Byline Times Article - ‘Democrats Need to Stop Blaming Trump's Voters and Admit the Party Must Change': https://bylinetimes.com/2024/11/07/democrats-need-to-stop-blaming-trumps-voters-and-admit-the-party-must-change/     What the Founding Fathers Would Say About Trump's Win  “I told you so.”: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/11/08/what-the-founding-fathers-would-say-about-trumps-win/?tpcc=editors_picks&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Editors%20Picks%2011092024&utm_term=editors_picks     Trump's Historic Chief of Staff Pick, and What Elon Musk Wants Now: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/08/podcasts/trump-chief-of-staff-musk.html     Amsterdam bans protests after 'antisemitic squads' attack Israeli soccer fans:  https://www.reuters.com/world/israels-pm-aware-very-violent-incident-against-israelis-amsterdam-his-office-2024-11-08/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After a night of trepidation at Jason's watch party the results came in faster and more furiously than expected… Trump crushed Harris – not just in rural areas or in Red States, but in many middle-class suburbs/exurbs and even with Latino and Black men. This 2024 Trumpian landslide is the biggest re-alignment in American politics since Reagan crushed Carter in 1980. The ‘lumpenproletariat' Trump coalition of 2024 is actually highly dissimilarly economically, socially, ideologically and ethnically to the ‘whitelash' coalition that took him to victory in 2016. How will that affect its Disordering impacts on the global stage?    Jason is joined by party guests -- FP deputy editor Sasha Polakow-Suransky and Jane Kinninmont -- to break down what the results mean for global order.    Sasha shares insights into anti-immigrant sentiment and attempts to channel the angry anti-system voters from his home state of Michigan, while Jane discusses European defense arrangements and is pressed by Jason to provide a sliver of Celtic optimism. They attempt to explain the implications for the rest of the world: the transatlantic relationship, European security, Ukraine, tariff wars, the Middle East (Iran/Gaza), and China. Jason ends the episode with a forlorn farewell. He sees no silver lining, only peak disorder ahead.    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  And Pray that the Disorderer-and-Chief doesn't cancel American democracy    Show Notes Links    To Get Sasha's Book ‘Go Back to Where You Came From': https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/sasha-polakow-suransky/go-back-to-where-you-came-from/9781568585932/     Check out his debate-style podcast Counterpoint: https://foreignpolicy.com/podcasts/counterpoint/     On the Demographic shifts and the re-ordering (or rather re-disordering) of American politics from racial/ethnic cleavages onto class lines    On ‘Defending Europe with less America': https://ecfr.eu/publication/defending-europe-with-less-america/?amp     ‘There is hope [maybe if you are Celtic but not if you are Anglo-American] — 10 ways to be prepared and grounded for another Trump presidency': https://wagingnonviolence.org/2024/11/10-things-to-do-if-trump-wins/    On Michigan's Arab voters: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/10/28/election-michigan-harris-trump-arab-americans-lebanon-war-israel-gaza/?utm_content=gifting&tpcc=gifting_article&gifting_article=ZWxlY3Rpb24tbWljaGlnYW4taGFycmlzLXRydW1wLWFyYWItYW1lcmljYW5zLWxlYmFub24td2FyLWlzcmFlbC1nYXph&pid=OC20506955     And the ‘Uncommitted' movement: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/08/21/michigan-biden-harris-gaza-uncommitted-arab-vote/?utm_content=gifting&tpcc=gifting_article&gifting_article=bWljaGlnYW4tYmlkZW4taGFycmlzLWdhemEtdW5jb21taXR0ZWQtYXJhYi12b3Rl&pid=OC20506955   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do professional ‘futurists' think about global disorder? With our current world seemingly in never ending Disorder that won't be immediately cured by the election results, it can be hard to put your head above the parapet and try to see into the future. Furthermore, given the rapidly changing pace of technology, the 2050s, 2070s, and 2100s feel a long way out. Is it worth trying to forecast and plan for the future? If countries started planning now, could we see an Ordered future?     In this episode of Disorder, Jason opens with his feelings about election day and then hands over to Jane Kinninmont to host Cat Tully, who works with governments, civil society and young leaders around the world to facilitate structured conversations about what the future could and should look like. She is the founder of the School of International Futures, and has previously served in the UK government, working on strategy in the prime minister's office and the Foreign Office.     Jane and Cat delve into the complexities of forecasting the future, discussing the importance of collective foresight in navigating global disorder. They discuss what was and wasn't achieved by the recent UN Summit For The Future, the role of strategic foresight in preparing for potential shocks, and how people around the world are working to push governments beyond short-term populist priories. Finally, they Order the Disorder by talking about the importance of youth engagement, and using futures and foresight methodologies to build a better future rather than viewing the future through the lens of panic and polycrisis.    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  And Pray that the Disorderer-and-Chief doesn't win    Show Notes Links    The School of International Futures' Implementation Handbook for the wellbeing of future generations: https://soif.org.uk/implementation-handbook/    UK Government's brief guide to futures thinking and foresight: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/635931b18fa8f557d066c1b1/A_Brief_Guide_to_Futures_Thinking_and_Foresight_-_2022.pdf    A great book by Jane McGonagal on training your imagination to think about the future: https://janemcgonigal.com/2021/12/17/imaginable-how-to-see-the-future-coming-and-feel-ready-for-anything-even-things-that-seem-impossible-today/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

To celebrate Halloween, Jason goes on the Keen On show hosted by friend of the Disorder Pod, Andrew Keen, to talk about America's spooky election and the crazy conspiracy theories that are floating around this election cycle. What does it really mean when people say the 2020 election was stolen or that Bill Gates implants people with microchips via their Covid Vaccines?      Conspiracy theories are not only, not new, they are a core part of how campaigns of social change are articulated. The more radical the change – the French Revolution, the rise of Hitler, or Trump's election—the more paramount the need for conspiracy theories to motivate the required action need to bring it about. Given his recent study of the phenomenon, Jason articulates his view that the conspiratorial rhetoric around this election embodies a new ‘us vs. them' turn in American political life. He urges Andrew and listeners to Read beneath the surface! And Unpack the True hidden meaning of the conspiracy!    Pointing to his New European Article (published this week), Jason concludes: Conspiracy theories are a socially acceptable way of articulating a Politics of Ressentiment – of pitting groups against each other. Just like Brexit, Trump has signalled that he will ‘take back control' from the minorities, Jews, uppity feminists, transgender activists, immigrants, urban lawyers, and all the other groups you hate and feel have too much power. Spooky indeed!    Show Notes Links    Read Jason's New European Article here: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/     And revisit last week's Disorder episode 76, ‘The System is Rigged: Conspiracy theories and the revenge of the losers' with Joe Uscinski here:  https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nvlI3hR1VFyMbgKaZddyi    Check out Andrew Keen's Substack here: https://keenon.substack.com/     Listen to Andrew podcast on Spotify here: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kkWdvi3xdG7JvTbQ0l9Ho     And one of his fun episodes on Intellectual Objectivity here: https://keenon.substack.com/p/in-defense-of-geeky-intellectuals   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether it is solar panels or steel, clothes or tech, many of the world's manufactures are made in China. But did you know that the Chinese manufacturing sector is not really supply and demand driven and tends to produce far more than the rest of the world demands? Now… with a faltering post-COVID recovery, a housing market collapse, and worsening relationship with the West, is China's economy in a genuine state of crisis? And could a troubled Chinese economy, unable to be buoyed by the recently announced stimulus, spread more Disorder globally? And what should the US and UK do to contain China's disordering potential? And how are different approaches to the Chinese economy a key electoral issue in the upcoming US Presidential election?    Jason Pack is joined by Zongyuan ‘Zoe' Liu, the Maurice R. Greenberg Fellow for China Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, and author of Sovereign Funds: How the Communist Party of China Finances Its Global Ambitions. Jason and Zoe discuss how China's economic policies – characterized by a motley mix of market-driven and state-controlled elements – have led to both tremendous Chinese excellence in manufacturing and also oversupply. The duo also discuss: the changing US-China relationship, the implications of Chinese overproduction on the global economy, and the role of massive Chinese provincial government debt.    As they Order the Disorder, they suggest how existing institutions like the World Trade Organization could work better, and how to patch up the failing marriage between China and the West.    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/      Show Notes Links  Read Zoe's article ‘China's Real Economic Crisis: Why Beijing Won't Give Up on a Failing Model' https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/chinas-real-economic-crisis-zongyuan-liu  Read more on why ‘China's economic ills are serious but not incurable'https://www.ft.com/content/553b106c-2bba-4f90-86d6-8496fc9cf902  On the Chinese hacking of Trump and Vance's phone's: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/25/politics/chinese-hackers-targeted-trump-and-vances-phone-data/index.html   For more on China's government is about to spend big on stimulus – can it turn around the country's sluggish economy? https://theconversation.com/chinas-government-is-about-to-spend-big-on-stimulus-can-it-turn-around-the-countrys-sluggish-economy-241260  To get more on Zongyuan Zoe Liu https://www.cfr.org/expert/zongyuan-zoe-liu  Watch US Ambassador to China Nicholas Burns explain The China Challenge https://foreignpolicy.com/live/burns-china-us-competition-diplomacy/  Read George Manus' piece ‘China's plan to boost flagging growth is the very definition of economic insanity‘ https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/oct/13/chinas-plan-to-boost-flagging-growth-is-the-very-definition-of-economic-insanity  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From immigrants eating pets, to Jewish space lasers starting wildfires, to 9/11 ‘trutherism', our disordered world – and particularly the rhetoric surrounding the 2024 US Election – is awash with conspiracy theories. Are these theories: ways of venting anti-establishment anger, merely entertaining distractions, dangerous socially acceptable ways of conveying hate for minorities, or do they actually convey meaningful calls to revolutionary political action? What is the hidden meaning encoded in the plot lines and specific tropes of particular popular conspiracy theories? And why do neo-populist leaders push – and anti-establishment voters believe in them? Are conspiracy theories inherently ‘disordering' and do they make it more difficult for today's politicians to solve pressing challenges?    To explore this complex world, Jason Pack is joined by Joseph Uscinski. He is an Associate Professor of Political Science at the University of Miami, author of ‘Conspiracy Theories: A Primer', and editor of Conspiracy ‘Theories and the People Who Believe Them'.    Throughout the episode, Jason engages in a conspiracy to come up with a unified field theory of how to unlock the meaning of conspiracy theories. Joe rains on his parade, rejecting most of Jason's pet theories, while unsurprisingly approving of his own pet theory: ‘Conspiracy Theories are for Losers and express a coherent world view that suits those without economic or political power'.    Jason and Joe discuss how conspiracy theories have become intertwined with certain types of modern political movements (especially disordering neo-populist ones), the psychological and social factors that motivate belief in conspiracy theories, the role of antisemitism throughout much conspiratorial thinking, and how these theories often target marginalised groups. The show closes with various sharp debates like over whether entertainment value or calls to political action have key roles to play in the spread of conspiracy theories. Lastly, when they Order the Disorder, Jason and Joe disagree vehemently over the role of global institutions should play in curtailing the spread of conspiracy theories.    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ to get the special substack-only second episode on Backgammon and Politics with former World Champion of Backgammon Sander Lylloff which drops tomorrow October 23rd      Show Notes Links    For various experts who think Conspiracy Theories entail and motivate actions: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/marianna-in-conspiracyland/id1690561703?i=1000616687886     Get Joseph's book, Conspiracy Theories: A Primer: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/conspiracy-theories-joseph-e-uscinski/1133459048     Listen to Joseph explain conspiracy theories and the people who believe them: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dr-joseph-uscinski-conspiracy-theories-and-the-people/id1599806986?i=1000549404259     Listen to Joseph on confronting conspiracy theories:  https://www.podcastone.com/episode/Episode-8---Confronting-Conspiracy-Theories-with-Joseph-Uscinski     Read how conspiracy theories have taken hold in far right communities: https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/i-went-undercover-among-the-fascists-and-this-is-what-i-found-rd5o5whq     Read the definition Jason uses for popular conspiracy theories: https://allthatsinteresting.com/popular-conspiracy-theories     Read definition of the 6 types of conspiracy theories: https://www.forbes.com/sites/traversmark/2024/02/25/a-psychologist-explains-6-types-of-conspiracy-theories/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices