Podcasts about 18so

12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. 14Do everything without grumbling or arguing,15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.[a]Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky16as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

Dual Use, Space and Ocean Tech...NY Tech Summit (Feb. 25, 2025)SUMMARY KEYWORDSDual use technology, space tech, ocean tech, cyber security, AI disinformation, Elon Musk, Ukrainian defense, naval drones, autonomous weapons, national security, public-private partnerships, ocean habitats, acoustic technology, geopolitical tensions, investment opportunities.SPEAKERSElena Anfimova, Gator Greenwill, Tony Cruz, Lisa Marrocchino, Speaker 5, Jaha Cummings, Carl Pro, Robin Blackstone, Speaker 4, Andrew Fisch, Mark Sanor, Dan BrahmyMark Sanor  00:00So Gator is with a family office investing in this space for a long time, with natural resources and minerals heritage. And Dan I met with Josette Sheeran at her office, otherwise known as the Carlisle hotel, who said, "You got to meet Dan", and now here you are on one of our panels. Thank you. So I think it's better, if you might share the "Harry Met Sally" story of how you met Dan Gator Greenwill  00:49That's a pretty good story. So Dan literally sent me a cold LinkedIn request. Yeah, there was a cut. Yeah, there were a couple of them. Mark Sanor  Wait, let's go back further. How did you identify him for that LinkedIn request? Or is it random? Or is it random? Give them the micDan Brahmy  01:15again, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So as part of being a founder who has lived in Israel for the last 19 years, I've learned to be a relentless a**hole. And so it's kind of this skill set that you need to have in order to get to a certain point in life. And I saw I heard about Gator, and then I was like, you know, maybe I'll just try and find his email address, and then I've had a lot of success is just reaching out to people on LinkedIn, you'd be surprised, like former head of Senate Intel Committee, folks like guys that you would never dream of even talking to. And I was like, hello, I'm Dan, can we talk? And they're like, Okay, whatever. So it just worked out in that Mark Sanor  01:57In that same spirit, how did you How did you land Elon Musk as a client. Dan Brahmy  02:04Well, that's a long story. So, so I'll let you go into the things you wanted to Mark Sanor  02:10say. Oh, he doesn't want that question. Gator Greenwill  02:15So anyhow, Dan, Dan did a cold LinkedIn email. It was persistent, but the area that he was exploring was of already significant interest to the investment fund that I was working for. We had long had the thesis that one of the fundamental risks of AI before we even make it to anything like artificial general or artificial super intelligence was the risk of an explosion in disinformation, an explosion in cognitive biases being worsened by tribalism on the internet. And so Dan had obviously been building the company for a couple of years when he reached out to us, he was beginning to do a raise for series, a had, you know, a very reputable Israeli VC fund that was looking for an American co investor, and we negotiated term sheet, and the the rest is history. Now we are sitting here before you today. So that's the the one minute version. There's obviously more twists and turns along along the way, we've ended up supplying probably 20 to 30, like 20% of your capital stack, maybe something like, something like that. So ended up being a significant portion of, you know, raise capital for for si Amber, before the the pre IPO and the IPO. So Mark Sanor  03:39now just want I'm getting, I want to ask more unfair questions, but, but as you look at the landscape, right? That's this is a one, just one example. What do you what excites and scares you in this? Well, Gator Greenwill  03:52a lot of things scare me. A lot of things also excite me. So the rising geo political tensions between the US and the EU certainly scare me, as well as you know, the US and at least a few members of the of the five eyes, given how important that's been to the defense posture of the United States historically, by the same token, it is causing a much needed re evaluation in Europe of spend by the government sector in the defense space, there has already been a number of very promising start ups actually being founded, even in Ukraine, but also in Estonia, Germany, France, that have been started for funding due To the government just under investing in the sector. So I'm excited about the prospects for investing in Euro zone companies. Aside from Israel, we've also invested in several Euro zone companies. So one thing that distinguished us from early on was we looked at dual use as being not just about American innovation, but American and partners innovation, including. Between Israel and the Euro zone especially. Mark Sanor  05:04And so, I guess from your perspective, Dan, maybe tell a little bit of your some interesting stories. I do want to hear this Elon Musk story, if you don't mind. Dan Brahmy  05:18So just to give a quick background, I'm Dan. I'm one of the co founders and the CEO of a company called Sara, which is cyber security in abracadabra, which kind of reveals what we do. But the truth is, we've been out there for seven years. Raised money from from gators Firm A couple times, and the value has been actually much more than just the capital. Usually, we've raised money from Founders Fund a couple times, which is Peter thiel's fund as well in the valley. So the guy who created PayPal and Palantir and all these other names out there, and for four years, we've actually done the typical mistake of the tech very geeky founders, which is building, building, building, building, and not getting enough feedback from the market. And so for a very long time, we were at that stage where we were trying to prove to the world by building the best possible tech. And I think we had, we still have, actually, it gave us a crazy advantage, but not within that four years time period, because we were just building that technology, which is in a nutshell, able to distinguish between real bad and fake for the online realm, social media and traditional media outlets, right? We want to be that, that sort of stamp of trustworthiness for the conversations that we all witness on a daily basis, on a minute basis, maybe at this point. And then, because of the Peter Thiel relationship, and because we were a tiny Israeli start up with no presence whatsoever, you know, two years ago, two and a half years ago, and we landed an article in the Wall Street Journal and forms, because we made so much noise about the stuff that we were solving. Some day, we received a call from a lawyer who was like, the pit bull is pit bull I've ever seen in my life. Scaries guy I've ever talked to sends me an email like, we need to talk now my client. I'm like, who's your client? It's like, sign this 19,000 pages. NDA, that if you say anything, you'll die tomorrow. I'm like, All right, well, we'll try, you know, we'll just sign it and and then he it's true. I mean, he told me about this story, and so he's like, this is Elon. I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. What does he want? It's like, well, you know what he wants? He wants to buy Twitter, right? He wants to take the price lower, and he feels like there's a gap between what Twitter is claiming about the bots and the sock puppets and trolls and the fake accounts and their impact. And so what's what they are stating about themselves as a company, what is truly happening? They're claiming that it's less than 5% has no impact over the conversations that we see over Twitter X, and he feels like it's more and he wants to use your tech. So I'm thinking this might be the first little star on our shoulder as a tech company, right? You want to start building credibility. It's kind of a deep, deep tech, a dual use technology, serving, you know, defense organizations and national security. So I said, interesting. So I mean, obviously I would do it for for a penny, right? But we didn't ask for a penny. We asked for much more, and he paid. And at the very end, I think we did a very good job. And, you know, same pit bull at the end was, I was like, Hey, can I be honest? You know, it would be great if you'd allow us to, you know, we're small company, maybe, maybe, maybe you'd allow me to go to the press, because we did such a great job. And, you know, I think his thought process was, what would a 15 people team from Israel could probably do in the press. What are the odds of these folks making noise? Wrong assumption. We very wrong assumption. So within two weeks, I received another call, after we published 1000 articles in the press, it's just like CNN, all that stuff. And he was, like, a so my client is not happy, because now he's the owner of Twitter. I'm like, okay, and well, now it reflects really badly on him, because now he's the owner of Twitter, and you're bashing the head of Twitter itself. He's the owner my Yeah, but I mean, I, you know, I saved him a billion dollars. So should be happy like, Yeah, I think you should stop now with the press. You know, it's enough and say, Well, you know, we also lined up like the BBC and stuff like that. But it will stop at 1000 articles from that moment onward. So it was November 2022 as a small company, literally, with almost no revenue at that. Point, I think we were like 300,000 in annual revenue. In two years, we ramped up to 6,000,006 point 1 million. So we blew up, and today we serve I'm not saying it's all about the musk story, but I think that a lot of startups are just completely, completely disregarding that credibility and that and that brand recognition, because, though, because we not that we we're all about the tech and the tech and the tech and and eventually, and I'm saying this as a as a tech company in the field of AI combating bad AI with good AI. And I'm going to be shooting myself in the foot as a soon to be CEO of a publicly traded company. Don't hate me when I say that. But I think people don't buy technologies. I think people by people, and people by trust, and we, I guess we prove that with time, and this equation proves to be the worthy one. That's the route we're going to be taking. And two thirds of the companies, like R and D people, I don't understand half of the shit that they're saying to me, and I'm like, Oh, very interesting. And we just move on to other stuff. But the truth is this, what we see, it's, it's, it's incredible technology being leveraged by people who want to trust you, like, that's pretty much that. So that's the story about which Mark Sanor  11:13has, which has lots of use cases, right? Not just dual use, not just forensics, but we, Dan Brahmy  11:20serve. I mean, we're on a, this is a do use technology panel. Is this a panel? If it's two people, yeah, Mark Sanor  11:28it says it's a duo, duo, dual use, the finalist Dan Brahmy  11:33of the panelists. Yeah, we work a lot with national security folks. Mark Sanor  11:38So why do you want to go public? Why? Because he wants you to go public. Do you Gator Greenwill  11:46sure I'll so I think what we found, and I've been discussing the IPO option with Dan, actually from fairly soon after he invested, after I invested, sorry, when he began discussing with different bankers about that option, and our conclusion, based on conversations with a number of VCs, was that even with a relatively depressed IPO market, the cost of money for a compelling company in the public markets is significantly cheaper than what you were seeing from VCs, post SVB bank collapse, term sheets got especially outside, if you were not a kind of golden circle Silicon Valley, you kind of Blessed from above. You know, start up. You know, no offense against, you know, friends of mine that run companies like that. You know, the types of term sheets that you get, you know, from VCs, you know, are typically fairly onerous. And so that was where, you know, we said, hey, you know, this is going to give a, you know, a multi year pipeline to the company, you know, add a, add a valuation that is has lots of room to grow, but is not overly dilutive to the existence. And I know Mark Sanor  12:59we're not pitching, but I think there's an opportunity for us to get it before the IPO. Right? All right, we'll come back to that, all right, other than his space, 13:12not a technical Mark Sanor  13:14one, a personal one, what kind of answer? Dan Brahmy  13:16I was born in France, so I'm romantic by default. Okay, I've lived there. I've no, it's true. I Yeah, so this is the beginning of the story. So 50, I live 15 years in France, right? And everything's about, like cheese love and Eiffel Tower and whatever people like about France. But there's something true about it. And I mean, I could be talking about the VC and the term sheets and the limitation preference and all the stuff that everybody knows about that probably more than I do, as a matter of fact. But the truth is, I think that we're solving one of the most complex and interesting challenges that we're facing at least nowadays, maybe in seven years will be different. But for sure, for the last two, three years and for the next couple of years ahead of us, we are in really deep, muddy waters, and the way that I want one of our, one of our board members is Mike Pompeo, the former secretary of state and head of CIA Jos about to be coming in as a post listing board member. You already know that one of the one of my ways to pitch it to them was not telling them about the technicalities of becoming a NASDAQ publicly traded company, because they know everything about complexities. While I was running in diapers, the guy run the CIA, so obviously he knows more than everything that I would do in life. But I told him, I think people need to perceive that opportunity at being a shareholder at Sara some point in time, in the next couple of years, as maybe I should invest in Batman, like if we are Batman. Mark Sanor  15:01It, and you guys are running this, the French, the French coming out, and you the romantic Dan Brahmy  15:08stuff, very geeky. But the truth is, like, if we're Batman and Batman has technologies, all I'm saying is, I think people should see this as the opportunity to potentially invest and help us build the technology that can be the arsenal to bring back a little bit of more transparency for this democracy. Because right now, Gotham City is running on fumes and is looking really bad, and the and and it feels like people are losing trust, slowly losing trust. And I got, I got two children, the two boys, four and two years old. And I'm saying, Damn, by the time they became they become teenagers. What are they going to be trusting? What they'll never trust the media. They'll never trust social media. They'll never trust things that they see online. Because Mark Sanor  15:49every single No, their dad is Batman, Dan Brahmy  15:53right? So that's Batman, exactly. I don't know who's Batman son in the show, but, but that's, that's the way I that I sold it to Mike Pompeo, like I want people to invest in Batman's also Mark Sanor  16:04so questions for Batman, yes, Tony Cruz  16:13as Iron Gate Capital Advisors looked at you. Have you talked 16:15to Hamlet you save? Or Gator Greenwill  16:20I know Hamlet, I'm not sure if he's under in this specific deal. I mean, some of the, you know, some of the companies that, some of the funds that, Iron Gate is an investor, and I'm almost, like 99.9% they have evaluated. Now, obviously it's a different, you know, it's about to be a different deal than it was, you know, before an IPO. So always could be worth revising that discussion with Ty and Hannah, Mark Sanor  16:48I've got two more panelists for you. So their space is up there as well. And there's ocean space and ocean we're talking about explain, and then ELA as a fund that focuses on dual use technologies as well. So just introduce yourself. Let me start with Elena. Elena Anfimova  17:14Thank you, Mark. Hello everybody. My name is Elena, and I do Ukrainian defense technology. You probably know that Ukrainian defense Tech is a world class innovation, and the gap the capital requirement for it is massive, and the challenge, in addition to capital, is how this startups access global markets. So this is what my team is working on, how to integrate the start ups in the domestic defense ecosystem, Mark Sanor  17:52which some are calling like the new Israel of sorts. And we were just having, oh, Patrick's here. We were having lunch, and I said, Do you know who Jacques Cousteau is? And he goes, Well, yes, I've been and I invested in his films. So his grandson, Fabian, has been with us, the CEO of his company. We've invested a lot in space, but we can gain a lot more cheaply and investing in ocean based research. So maybe it's explain. Hello. Lisa Marrocchino  18:27I'm Lisa March, you know, thank you for having me join. I was just in Davos, in Ukraine, cyber tech, and technology was a big topic there, so that was super interesting for me to be there was an AI cyber conference that I attended, but what we're doing at Fabien Cousteau was the first grandson of Jacques co he. His grandfather was an ocean pioneer. I'm missing the word ocean tech from this conference. However, we need to change that. I also do believe that ocean tech is going dual use because of, well, lots of geo political reasons. So we are focusing on national security as well, and I'll explain a little bit of that. But Jacques Cousteau developed some of the first technologies to spend more time in the ocean and habitat. So he built some of what are called Ocean habitats, or really ocean research stations. And we have one in space, but we don't have any in the ocean, because the space race took off and got and left ocean behind. And as Mark mentioned, in the last 10 years, you have invested $270 billion in space and private creating a private space industry, and created, really 1700 new companies. So we really are poised to create that same kind of phenomenon in ocean tech. It reminds me I was at Goldman Sachs in technology research, and this really reminds me of, kind of the early days of technology. So his grandson kind of picked up the torch, and in 2014 lived under water for. For 31 days with five scientists did not come up to the surface because of what's called saturation technology. So he was fully saturated and lived at 20 meters or 60 feet, and did not come up to the surface for 31 days. So what happened were some phenomenal things under water. There were science experiments and kind of an acceleration of that, because you were able to dive 10 to 12 hours a day. So what we can't get back is time. We know we're at the precipice. I mean, someone mentioned a meteor here that almost hit us. I think we should be much more worried about climate change and some cataclysmic issues that are we're on the precipice of then, uh, then the media are hitting us. So I, I do believe that we we're not focused on climate change and maybe this administration and where we are today. We won't be so we will use acoustic technology, sensor technologies we've evolved from just, not just a habitat, but really thinking about an ocean technology platform where acoustics and all of those national security issues do come into play, so I'll stop there. Mark Sanor  21:08Excellent. All right, so you got a cornucopia now, space slash ocean tech we'll use and let's open up for questions. I Andrew Fisch  21:24Yes, Lisa, this is completely anecdotal, so you'll have to answer the question, and in for me, a lot of call them drums. You know, a lot of devices are being now, roaming the oceans, gathering data of all types. Is this advancing what you do as opposed to having literally people in one place? Is it complimentary? Is replace anything? Lisa Marrocchino  21:53That's a great question. We really believe that you can't just do it alone with robots, but robots are essential to amplifying and extending the reach of humans. So and this, and NASA is really studying this a lot as well, kind of this human robotic interface, if human interface, and we really, if it were true that robots could do it all, they would be the only thing on them, you know, in space. So I do believe that you really need that human interaction with robots, and we can really amplify so yes, we'll be looking at robotics, a U V S, R V s, all of those in surrounding the habitat. If you think about the habitat, is almost like the smartest node on this kind of technology ecosystem platform. So that's how we're really looking at it. There's some super cool technology that can be, that's not even out there yet, right? That can Yes, absolutely. Then they have to come back, right? And then you have to interpret the data and AI, you know, one i We heard a lot about AI, and that's one thing I'm really optimistic about. AI in ocean, there is a flood gate of so if you send out all those robots and all those sensors, are going to come back with a flood gate, even with hydro acoustic modems, there's so much information to be processed, and we know nothing about our ocean. You know, 5% has been explored. So how can we gather all that data to do to make better decisions? And that's where robotics and AI, I think, is going to make play a major role in so we're looking at all of that technology. 23:24Thank you. Other questions, Robin Blackstone  23:28yes, you know, it occurred to me that one of the factors in the ocean as well as space, is that a lot of it's not own by anybody, and so it's essentially available to be used by anyone. And it's kind of an interesting advantage. Planets would be another space like that. So in a world that's carved up already on land, there's these vast spaces which are not carved up. I was just wondering what advantage that might confer on the work that you guys are doing. Lisa Marrocchino  24:06Yeah, that's also a really good question. So we work with governments and create public private partnerships. So right now we're working in Curacao, Portugal, cap of ver very talking to people in the Middle East as well. And it is interesting. And I don't know if anyone saw there was recently an article about China having a habitat. So there is an interesting phenomenon happening, going back to dual use and national security. All of a sudden, China is interested in creating habitats at very deep levels and to do all kinds of things. So it is an open space, and I think legal will probably play a big role in this. But right now, we haven't had any issues with putting a habitat in waters outside of Curacao, Cabo Verde, Portugal and the Red Sea even there's no been no issues with like, you can't go there or you can go here, but it is a. Question, the ocean is even bigger than lots of spaces, and it's right in our back yard. So as long as we all play nice, I think, for a while, and if China accelerates what they're doing in the ocean, I hope and pray that that will help the US come to terms with investing more and the ocean, 25:27just Jaha Cummings  25:32on the question of, I guess, areas for American city research, if you consider micro Nisa, I lived there for 20 years, and the whole northern Pacific we have our contact agreement, which pretty much denies rite of passage to anyone else, right? Lisa Marrocchino  25:45I love that. Yeah, all areas are open, or we're open to any area really that would that where we need to study the ocean, and really that's almost everywhere, because we haven't studied it at Gator Greenwill  26:00all. On the question of geo politics and the ocean, one I think still under sung aspect is that right now, an enormous amount of the world internet traffic travels underneath the sea, and we've already started to see Russian and Chinese vessels in the Baltic and the South China Seas, you know, imping upon Japan, or in some cases, it seems, even sabotage cables running into various countries that they have issues with, so that, you know, that's a live area, and sort of, you know, the oceans have Been a commons for the transmission of data and information for a long time that now seems to be more and more contested in the current moment of power competition, Mark Sanor  26:53one second, and you could just say, What? What? What's the technology or company in Ukraine or related to Ukraine, because you're not all investing in Ukrainian companies that you think is most exciting we should be aware of. Well, 27:10naval drones. Elena Anfimova  27:21Oh, yeah, they're Ukraine is the first country in the world to sort of create effective naval drones. And on December 31 actually, Ukrainian naval drones. Magura down two Russian helicopters, the first presidents in the world. Hard to say it's a record. It's still loss of life, and it's still horrible, but technologically speaking, a very cheap drone, comparatively to any missile destroys a helicopter to helicopter, and the third was damaged, but made it be back to the base. Another case, one Ukrainian drones destroyed $130 million missile system. So the mind boggling phenomenon about these drones and the drone warfare is that this very cheap, again, comparatively speaking, devices destroy multi, sometimes 100 million dollar systems I just came back from the Emirates, I went to this I deck, if you guys know, it's like the largest defense exhibition. And there were all these massive, shiny toys. And I was walking, walking by and thinking, you know, like a 10,000 drone can destroy it. So I guess what we're still grasping is how war far has changed, and dominating military stockpiles are still kind of the World War Two, slash Cold War technology, and what needs to happen right now is restocking in pivoting to defense technology right now in Ukraine, the war that's happening is a war of drones. It's not even people anymore. I had a like innovative aim in system for guns, you know, for actual soldiers to do something with. And I had to drop it because there were no soldiers anymore fighting, you know, each other. It's drones and swarms of drones. So. Boom, and there is a Ukrainian company called swam. I did not invest in it, but that that's a really break through technology. Then another, and pretty much like the group of tech that's really promising, is autonomous weapons. So it's autonomous remote control weapons that you can control from 1000s of miles, and they help to save lives and pretty much like it's equipment destroying equipment. Given how horrendous the concept of physical warfare is in 21st century, it's still better than you know this mince meat attacks, I think it's called that Russia really prefers and practices to this day in Ukraine, we do not have the human resources to sort of mimic this strategy. And we value human life, so we really prefer robots to fight. So it's autonomous weapons, autonomous drones, and also electronic warfare, because what's happening is that when you face a technologically advanced enemy is that there is this jam in spoofing and GPS de night environments, so the navigation systems become very prominent anti drone electronic warfare. So how do you protect your drone from being jammed and spoofed so that it completes its mission. The interesting part is that American drones did not do well in Ukraine at all. They were expensive and glitchy because they could not perform with that kind of electronic warfare that Russia has, and let's say, out of 10, Mission only two mission are complete, whereas Ukrainian drones can complete eight out of 10. There is one. Mark Sanor  32:14Compare that to the US technology today. How far are we? Because we haven't done this every day, every hour, like you Elena Anfimova  32:21are well. So this is what I'm saying, and a lot of feedback is kind of just like a second hand information, right? Because it's not published anywhere. The only sort of public media account of this that I found is a Wall Street Journal article about that, how glitchy and how ineffective American drones were tested in Ukraine on the battlefield. Because you see, the thing is, is even for AI to function well, it needs to be fed lots of data. Ukraine is pretty much the only place where you can get the data, and that pretty much accounts for why Ukrainian drones are so much more efficient than any other drones unless they are tested on the battle field in Ukraine. So for any drone company right now to be you know, anything, they have to be there, there. So is 33:21this something you're looking Gator Greenwill  33:22at? Absolutely. We're active investors in the conference system space, happy to discuss more especially Speaker 5  33:32so we are almost ready for breakouts and refreshments. Carl Pro  33:37But I had a quick question on the what I call your misinformation or BS software, I spent my lunch time reading through like 25 or 30 websites to try to pick out the same story and read them and all to find out where the truth is. Your system would probably be great to have some independent calculation of current events, without the biases. Dan Brahmy  34:10We have been, not we've been we've been dreaming of eventually creating that stamp of trust within us that we that we spoke about. So the short answer, what you said is, this is exactly what we're aiming at, which is being able to understand whether the source, so the actor who's pushing and propagating a certain narrative or a certain angle, whether it can be a trusted source. So is it a is it a real person? Is it a real journalist? Is it a fake journalist? Is it a but a sock puppet patrol, a spam account, you name it. There's another 10,000 we don't need to get into all the categories, but, but I think that that gives you know one portion of the answer that you're looking for, and and then we explain, just to give you slightly longer answer, we we sort of decipher what we call the behavioral patterns. So. So think about an MRI that says, how, how powerful and how fast does a piece of information fly out over social media? Is it only within the social media realm, or is it flying from social media, from Twitter to The Wall Street Journal and then back to Facebook, and then going back to tick tock. And then what kind of formats, right? So the speed and the strength, and then the third part of your question would be about the authenticity and the nature of the content itself. So not just the similarity, and is it copy paste, but actually, is it? Is it a deep fake? Is it is, you know, is a computer generating the pictures and the videos that we're looking at right now, and then you aggregate all this sort of answer into, should you ignore what you're seeing, watching, reading? Should you track it closely, because it might become a threat, slash an opportunity, depending which side you're on the scale, or the last point, which is, should you be so worried that you need to mitigate against that immediately? We you know you spoke about the drones, and we spoke about the the the Navy and how we could potentially leverage the unexplored territories. We've talked to three and four star generals, and we've talked to Secretaries of Navy, and we've talked to all these incredibly smart and powerful people that have the almighty power to shift territories and shift decision making process. And the funny thing is, they have made very costly decisions based on misinformation. They shifted entire armies, not small military operations. They have shifted dozens of planes, dozens of naval ships and 1000s of soldiers. What Mark Sanor  37:01so the first, so the first saner. His name was Sanor, who was Prussian. You know, we had a lot of hessian troops. So Michael Sanor was the aide de camp. Eventually, he was known as the Flying Dutchman. He stole the white horse. But for the battle of York title, it led to the victory, partly, where the French, because they were in New Jersey, where I live, their ovens kept baking the bread, and that was that deception to the troops. They fell. They're clearly still still up there. They're still eating when instead they they moved around and caught them by surprise. So we love the French information. And it was interesting that Macron came over to see Trump. But they will talk about these things, the breakouts. This is how we do breakouts. This comes this is a slide from 2011 12, when I would do these breakouts for Dennison. Anybody from Denison? You're close enough Denison people here, usually there's always one Michigan room makes little sister Council. But we would get together in round tables and then, and it would be the round table for fashion in New York, or for finance. And then we eventually get 300 people. And there were segments that we now have a round table for each of these panels. And like one physically is over there. It's probably a popular one next to the bar. Another one's over here, and we have the ones out there, out first, mingle, you know, stretch, move around again, and then I'll put on the screen where the round tables will be. And they will the format is basically no one dominates the conversation. There's no like alpha that just takes over. It's a round table. Everybody should introduce themselves what they're doing so that everybody knows and we all try to help each other. It's the same thing we did for the alumni. No one's asking for money. The school isn't asking for money. We're here to help each other. The same spirit here and for our family office world. So if someone's got some insights, you want some questions, let's ask the panel a little more information. You know, Alyssa, like you're in the ocean world, right? You should be a guest in this, well, deep tech, ocean tech world. And, you know, everybody should know each other. And and then we come back and we say two things, what did you learn? What are your takeaways? We'll come back here one more time, and one or two people will speak about it. And one of those takeaways is like, or is like, is there something we should do? Should we do a deep dive on ocean tech? Should we do a deep dive on, you Speaker 4  39:50know, may I say one more thing, just to give plug the ocean short time you don't Mark Sanor  39:55have a chance to do that. Okay? This is just the principles of it. Okay? And you want to know more about ocean Tech, I think Lisa will be near that bar over there. And so let's let's break. I'll come back to Mike 10 minutes or so. Let you know where the breakouts will be. Do the breakouts meet the people who are relevant to you. And that's that magic for what we do. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Panel. I'm joined our 361 firm community of investors and thought leaders. We have a lot of events created by the community as we collaborate on investments and philanthropic interests. Join us. You. You can subscribe to various 361 events and content at https://361firm.com/subs. For reference: Web: www.361firm.com/homeOnboard as Investor: https://361.pub/shortdiagOnboard Deals 361: www.361firm.com/onbOnboard as Banker: www.361firm.com/bankersEvents: www.361firm.com/eventsContent: www.youtube.com/361firmWeekly Digests: www.361firm.com/digest

· Philippians 4:4 – Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again, Rejoice!· Why should I choose joy?· John 14:1-4 - Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”· Heaven is living in the presence of God.· Heaven is not just a place to go when you die; it is a Kingdom you experience as you follow Jesus.· Isaiah 65: 17For behold, I am the creator of new heavens and a new earth;And the previous things will not be remembered and will come upon the heart.18So then, rejoice and be excited forever for what I create!For behold, I am the creator of a rejoicing Jerusalem and her people of joy!19And I will be excited with Jerusalem and I will rejoice with my people;And in her will not be heard again weeping or crying.· Revelation 21:1-4 - Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from theireyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”· If you do not want a relationship with God on earth, you will not be comfortable in heaven.· We need to live to get ready for heaven.· Do you hate?· Do you lust?· Do you treat marriage as sacred?· Are you trustworthy?· Do you let go of hurt and bitterness?· Do you love your enemies?· Are you generous?· Are you developing a conversational relationship with God?· Do you trust God with your worries and anxieties?· Do you judge others?· Are you building your life on Jesus or on your own wisdom?· 19And I will be excited with Jerusalem and I will rejoice with my people…· Following Jesus means doing life with God right now.· Church is to be a preview of heaven.· Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.· The more the church looks like heaven, the more people want to know what makes us that way.· When we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be.· When we all see Jesus, we will sing and shout the victory.LIFE GROUP DISCUSSION QUESTIONSStarter: Have you ever known someone who lived like they were already in heaven? What were they like?Discussion:1. Read Isaiah 65:17-192. Read Revelation 21:1-43. What are the parallels you see between these two passages, written over 600 years apart?4. A new heaven and a new earth refers to God creating a new reality. What would you like to see in God's new reality?5. What do you think it means when the passages refer to “the previous/former things?” How does it change how we live if no longer let “the previous things” lay on our heart?6. In the Isaiah passage, God is described as “excited” and “rejoicing.” What picture does your mind paint? What does God look like when he is rejoicing?7. The message referred to a “getting ready for heaven” and using the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount as a guide. How did you feel when these questions were asked? Which one pricked your heart most?8. In your opinion, what could we do to make our church more like heaven?

Daily Anglican Prayer – Sunday Holy Eucharist at home – 12th January 2025 Readings. Isaiah 43. 1-7 Psalm 29; Acts 8. 14-17; Luke 3. 15 -16. Led by Felicity Scott, an Anglican lay minister in Queensland, Australia. The full prayer transcript is available by going to this episode on the Podcast website. https://dailyprayeranglicanprayerbookforaustralia.podbean.com   Welcome to Sunday Holy Eucharist for you at home from the Anglican a prayer book for Australia.   Preparing for this Eucharist: During this service you can minister Eucharist to yourself and your gathered family members. Place on your table if you have them, a Bible, a small glass of red wine or grape juice, pieces of bread or wafers, one piece for each participant, a lighted candle and a cross. Gather all who are to partake in the Eucharist around the table.   The majority of the words of this eucharist are available from page 119 in the Anglican a prayer book for Australia or use the episode link to view the words.   We gather together to celebrate God. The Good News We proclaim the Good News of our Lord Jesus Christ: GOD in his infinite mercy, forgives all sins, and through our baptism in the name of our Saviour, Jesus Christ, we are given a rebirth into new life, free from the burden of all sin. ALLELUIA With faithfulness we respond to the good news: We acknowledge Christ as our saviour and accept with gratitude, that we are forgiven for all wrong doings, past and present. To honour the gift of forgiveness, we release our burden of guilt and rise up to live in the glory of God forever more. Blessed be God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Blessed be God forever. Let us Pray.   The greeting The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. And also with you. The Sentence if required The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.' The prayer of preparation. Let us pray. Almighty God, To whom all hearts are open, All desires known, And from whom no secrets are hidden, cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of your Holy Spirit that we may perfectly love you, and worthily magnify your holy name, through Christ our Lord.  Amen   Hear O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. Jesus said: ‘This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: you shall love your neighbour as yourself.' The Confession Our Lord Jesus Christ said: Lord, have mercy on us, and write your law in our hearts by your Holy Spirit. Let us confess our sins in penitence and faith confident in God's forgiveness.   Merciful God, our maker and our judge, we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed; And in what we have failed to do: we have not loved you with our whole heart, we have not loved our neighbours as ourselves; we repent and are sorry for all our sins. Father, forgive us. Strengthen us to love and obey you  in newness of life; through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Amen. The Assurance of Forgiveness Almighty God, who has promised forgiveness to all who turn to him in faith, pardon you and set you free from all your sins, strengthen you in all goodness and keep you in eternal life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. Lord have mercy Christ have mercy God have mercy The Gloria, we say together Glory to God in the highest and peace to God's people on earth. Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, we worship you, we give you thanks,  we praise you for your glory. Lord Jesus Christ, only son of the Father, Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world:  have mercy on us; you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer. For you alone are the Holy One; you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.     The Collect of the Day – Year C - Luke The Collect of the day. Eternal God, at the baptism of Jesus in the river Jordan,  you proclaimed him your beloved son, and anointed him with the Holy Spirit: grant that all who are baptised into his name  may keep the covenant they have made, and boldly confess him as Lord and saviour; who with you and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, one God, in glory everlasting. Amen. The Prayer of the Week First Sunday after Epiphany Almighty God who anointed Jesus at his baptism with the Holy Spirit and revealed him as your beloved son: inspire us, your children, who are born again of water and the spirit, to surrender our lives to your service, that we may rejoice to be called your children; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen The Old Testament, Scripture Reading 1 Isaiah 43:1-7. 1But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. 2When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. 3For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in exchange for you. 4Because you are precious in my sight, and honored, and I love you, I give people in return for you, nations in exchange for your life. 5Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you; 6I will say to the north, “Give them up,” and to the south, “Do not withhold; bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the end of the earth— 7everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”   Hear the word of the Lord Thanks be to God. The Psalm Psalm 29   The New Testament, Scripture Reading 2 The Second Reading, is from the New Testament, Acts 8:14-17. 14Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit 16(for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). 17Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.    The lord be with you. And also with you.       The Gospel reading. We welcome the gospel: Alleluia, Alleluia. We welcome the gospel, Alleluia.   The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to Luke 3:15-22   As you make a small cross signs on your own forehead, left cheek and upper chest, we say together ‘Glory to you Lord Jesus Christ'.   Glory to you Lord Jesus Christ.   15As the people were filled with expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Messiah, 16John answered all of them by saying, “I baptize you with water; but one who is more powerful than I is coming; I am not worthy to untie the thong of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” 18So, with many other exhortations, he proclaimed the good news to the people. 19But Herod the ruler, who had been rebuked by him because of Herodias, his brother's wife, and because of all the evil things that Herod had done, 20added to them all by shutting up John in prison. The Baptism of Jesus 21Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”   This is the gospel of the Lord, Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ.           A short homily on todays gospel. Luke 3:15-22   When Jesus was baptised, the heavens opened, yet for others, heaven remained closed. Jesus up until that point had not yet openly started his ministry, had not started to carryout God's intentions through him. So what had Jesus done at the point of being baptised that He was treated differently by God? Belief and faith were the difference, Jesus was already deeply committed to being one with God.   From a small child, Jesus had shown commitment and steadfast obligation to remain in God's presence in all he did. Little wonder then that at that baptism moment, the scales tipped, and the heavens opened, because Jesus had done something he didn't need to do.   Because despite Jesus', already accrued knowledge and pledge in God, he then lowered himself to be the same as everyone else and he went to John for baptism. Jesus was already fully dedicated in serving God and so in that moment, God announces his intention for him by naming him ‘The beloved Son of God'.   While ascending the dizzying heights of faith in God, we can sometimes forget that God needs us on the ground with the people. Then God's intention for us through our commitment to Him becomes clear.   Let us pause for a moment to reflect.   The belief and principle is said I believe in God, creator of heaven and earth, whose love and merciful forgiveness endures everlasting. I believe in Christ the saviour, whose example of love and compassion, taught us a restored way to live, in collaborative unity with all people. I believe in the Holy Spirit, whose divine guidance brings us together to be one with the Holy Trinity. The Nicene Creed We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in Jesus Christ, Son of God, God from God, Light from Light, of one Being with the Father. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.  On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who has spoken through the Prophets. We acknowledge the forgiveness of sins and the life of the world to come. Amen. The Prayers Let us pray for the world and for the church. God, we give you thanks for opening our eyes to witness your hand at work in the gifts that surround us. Thank you for your continued love and blessings in abundance throughout our lives. Bless us with your generous nature good Lord, as we answer your call to minister to your will. Guide us to walk before you in faithfulness, in righteousness and in upright honour towards you. God of Love we ask you.      Hear our Prayer   God, we offer thanks for your blessing of peace across all countries and continents. Give all your servants an understanding mind, able to recognise between good and evil. Give us all wise and discerning minds, that we might know how to honour God in our life. God of Love we ask you.      Hear our Prayer   God, we thank you for the church leaders in Australia, teach them to refresh us through their leadership. Guide our bishops, ministers and lay people and renew our courage to proclaim the good news of Christ in our schools, workplaces, and homes. God of Love we ask you.      Hear our Prayer   God, we pray thanks that with your guidance we live in your light and go out in your name to help others who are less fortunate. We pray that through our reverence in the name of Christ, we become new and maintain our light even when surrounded by darkness. God of Love we ask you.      Hear our Prayer   Heavenly Father, we thank you that through your Son Jesus Christ, you have shown us the way to live and breathe in your righteousness. Give us the strength to remain in your presence in all we do. Help us to be willing advocates of your work, guiding our actions to a better life for all. God of Love we ask you.      Hear our Prayer   We pause for a moment for you to pray for your own petitions.     Almighty God you have promised to hear our prayers. Grant that what we have asked in faith  we may by your grace receive, through Jesus Christ our lord. Amen   The greeting of peace: We are the body of Christ. His spirit is with us.   The peace of the lord be always with you And also, with you.   Let us all exchange a sign of peace. The Preparation for the Lord's Supper We do not presume to come to your table, merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in your manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under your table. But you are the same Lord whose nature is always to have mercy. Grant us, therefore gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of your dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that we may evermore dwell in him, and he is us. Amen. The thanksgiving: Lift up your hearts. We lift them to the Lord. Let us give thanks to the Lord our God. It is right to give Him thanks and praise. All glory and honour be yours always and everywhere mighty creator ever living God. We give you thanks and praise for our saviour Jesus Christ who by the power of your spirit was born of Mary and lived as one of us. By his death on the cross and rising to new life he offered the one true sacrifice for sin and obtained an eternal deliverance for his people. Therefore, with angels and archangels, and with the whole company of heaven, we proclaim your great and glorious name, forever praising you, and saying: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, Heaven and earth are full of your glory.  Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he that comes in the name of the LORD. Hosanna in the highest. Merciful God we thank you for these gifts of your creation, this bread and wine, and we pray that by your word and Holy Spirit we who eat and drink them may be partakers of Christ body and blood. On the night he was betrayed Jesus took bread and when he had given you thanks he broke it and gave it to his disciples saying ‘take eat. This is my body given for you do this in remembrance of me.' After supper he took the cup and again giving you thanks he gave it to his disciples saying drink from this all of you this is my blood of the new covenant shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me. The memorial acclamation: Christ has died; Christ is risen; Christ will come again. Therefore, we do as our saviour has commanded proclaiming his offering of himself made once for all upon the cross his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension and looking for his coming again we celebrate with this bread and this cup his one perfect and sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.   Renew us by your Holy Spirit, unite us in the body of your son and bring us with all your people into the joy of your eternal Kingdom, through Jesus Christ our Lord with whom and in whom, in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, we worship you father in songs of never ending praise. Blessing and honour and glory and power are yours for ever and ever.  Amen. The Lord's Prayer As our saviour Christ has taught us, we are confident to pray, Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your Name your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.  For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and for ever. Amen. We break this bread to share in the body of Christ. We who are many are one body, for we all share in the one bread. Jesus Lamb of God, have mercy on us. Jesus bearer of our sins, have mercy on us. Jesus redeemer of the world, grant us your peace. The gifts of God for the people of God. Come, let us take this holy sacrament of the body and blood of Christ in remembrance that He died for us, and feed on Him in our hearts by faith, with thanksgiving. As we minister the bread to each of the people gathered, we say: ‘The body of Christ, keep you in eternal life', and they respond with: ‘Amen'. As we minister the cup to each of the people gathered, we say: ‘The blood of Christ, the cup of salvation, keep you in eternal life'; and they respond with: ‘Amen'. Please pause the recording while you minister the gifts and offer personal prayers of gratitude. On Continuing: Living God, in this holy meal you fill us with NewHope. May the power of your love, which we have known in word and sacrament, continue your saving work among us, give us courage for our pilgrimage, and bring us to the joys, you promise.   We say together: Most loving God, you send us into the world you love. Give us grace to go thankfully and with courage, in the power of your holy spirit. The Final Blessing The peace of God which passes all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God, and of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord; and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, be among you, and remain with you always. Amen. The Dismissal We have today proclaimed the message of Christ in our homes, go forth and proclaim the message of Christ in your streets, towns, cities and countries, that all are saved by the death and resurrection of our saviour. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord. In the name of Christ, Amen.  Music by John Keys – Anglican Chant Canticle organ accompaniments. A reminder disclaimer to the listener. The readings in the podcast may include ancient and old-fashioned sayings and instructions that we do not in any way condone as in use or to be used in today's modern world. The readings have not been modernised to reflect todays thinking, instead the readings remain from the old version of the NRSV bible. The podcast owners explicitly declare that each listener is responsible for their own actions in response to the bible readings and the podcast owners bare no responsibility in this sense.  

In episode three of Iron Lab's Perfectly Unfinished Conversations podcast, Coach Jo and Coach Kim discuss the dangers of perfectionism, our relationship with mirrors, and its impact on self-worth. From cultural expectations to social media pressure to generational attitudes, both Jo and Kim unpack their hang-ups about body image. By sharing impactful childhood memories and discussing the negative effect these experiences have had on their perceived self-worth, they give listeners practical advice for pushing past the negativity and learning how to love and look after themselves on a daily basis. Listeners will hear about the crucial role of self-love and acceptance in personal growth and transformation. Coach Jo and Coach Kim emphasize how when we focus on appreciation for our bodies—no matter what stage of life we're in—we gain the opportunity to love, nourish, and grow our minds and bodies so we can become the best possible version of ourselves. This episode is a must-listen for anyone struggling with body image and self-esteem. Jo and Kim give practical how-to advice for making consistent, positive mindset changes and help listeners understand they are not alone in their struggles.--Contact Joely Churchill and Kim Berube | Iron Lab: Website: IronLabLacombe.comInstagram: Iron.Lab.LacombeFacebook: IronLabLacombeCoach Jo Instagram: @CoachJoChurchCoach Kim Instagram: @CoachKimBerubeCourse: Metabolic Blueprint--Transcript Coach Jo 00:09Welcome to Perfectly Unfinished Conversations, the Iron Lab podcast with Coach Jo… Coach Kim 00:14…and Coach Kim… Coach Jo 00:15Where you ride shotgun with us as we have raw, real, unfiltered, and unfinished conversations about trying to eat, sleep, train, and live with some integrity in a messy, imperfect life. Coach Kim 00:27We're all about creating a strong support system taking radical personal responsibility, having fun, and being authentic. And one of the most common themes you're going to find in this podcast is the idea that we create positive momentum in our life, by doing what we call b-minus work. Coach Jo 00:45We're making gains and getting ahead and loving life without self-sabotaging our goals by striving for perfection. We get it done by moving ahead… Coach Kim 00:55…before we're ready… Coach Jo 00:56…when we aren't feeling like it…  Coach Kim 00:58…and without hesitation. Coach Jo 1:00Be sure to subscribe now on Apple or Spotify, so you don't miss a single episode. It's good enough. Let's go. Coach Jo 01:10Welcome back guys to episode three of the perfectly unfinished conversations podcast with Jo… Coach Kim 01:16Hi, my BFF! And coach Kim. This episode is all about making peace with the mirror. So, we want to have a discussion about the importance of this practice. ‘Cause it's a practice. Coach Jo 01:30So, what, why would it be an important conversation to have? Because I think behind closed doors, 80% to 90% of the female population probably deals with this. And it's not talked about enough in my opinion. Coach Kim 01:42Yea, I would agree. And I'm always kind of blown away. Because if I do have a conversation with somebody, and they're like, Yeah, I just, I'm totally good with the way I look. I'm always like, hands up, sister. I don't know how you got there. But I would love to know how you have been able to, like, put zero energy or attention, and this is kind of what we're talking about, put zero energy or attention into critiquing, criticizing, examining yourself in the mirror, most often with kind of some sort of negative feedback to yourself. Coach Jo 02:19And that negative feedback sounds like it spirals down into this rabbit hole of negative self-talk and negative emotions and the stories that we say in our brain that keep happening to us. And the more you speak this in your brain, the more we just start living that way, right? you view yourself as a story in your head. Coach Kim 02:37Where have you noticed this, in conversations either, like we're going to talk about ourselves, but where have you noticed this in particular with clients? In client conversations? Coach Jo 02:45I'd say over the last decade working with clients, I have learned that most people don't deal with, like, a weight issue, they deal with a self-worth issue. Because once the self-worth issue is solved, then usually the weight issue gets solved alongside the process, right? Because it slows down the main process of losing weight because a lot of it's attached to perfectionism. And they're not good enough because they didn't do it perfect, or this way or that way. And then that just slows, like that, just slugs it right down to a slow halt. Coach Kim 03:18So, as you're saying that I'm like geez, you know, I've never thought about it specifically like that, which is why it's so good to have this conversation. For me when I think about, like, how my relationship with myself in the mirror. I've never looked at it as being related to perfectionism. But maybe that's what it is. You know, like at the root, maybe that's what it is. But definitely, the self-talk that comes with that is slow or self-defeating or self-sabotaging, you know, as a result. Coach Jo 03:55Yeah, exactly. I think self-sabotage is one of the number one symptoms of someone who deals with perfectionism, it's just never good enough. And when they're, if someone's trying to go on any type of journey, and if they look at themselves in the mirror and they're having this battle with a mirror, it's always going to be some form of self-sabotage, negative self-talk, because they're not. They're not what they think, as in their image in their head is perfect. Coach Kim 04:16Yea, true. So where have you struggled with your own reflection, appreciating your body, being able to recognize, yeah, just the way you feel about your body, when you look in the mirror?  Coach Jo 04:28You know it I think for me, it started like maybe like most girls, maybe not like most girls, but it started with the scale, actually. And the scale was always in front of the mirror in the bathroom growing up. And I was raised that every morning, you're supposed to get on the scale and see how much you weigh. As a woman. I, my brother never had to do that. But I had to do that. And I probably did not have to do that. But I thought I had to do that. Because you know, that's how my mother was raised, maybe. And I don't look at it as...

In an empowering episode of Sweet on Leadership, host Tim Sweet sits down with Erin Ashbacher, a highly accomplished CSEP-certified personal trainer and Senior Health Advisor. Tim and Erin delve into the crucial intersection of health and leadership development, with Erin emphasizing the need to view health as a dynamic lifestyle change rather than a time-consuming endeavour. As a powerlifter and former dancer, Erin draws on her expertise in cardiac rehabilitation, challenging common excuses with a focus on small, consistent steps and flexibility in workouts. Erin emphasizes intentional movement, goal-setting, and the creation of personalized fitness programs. The episode explores overcoming the common “no, but” mindset with the mindset of yes, and. They emphasize the evolving nature of fitness journeys and the positive impact of investing in health on professional success. Erin's unique approach combines her expertise in listening, goal-setting, and life balance, positioning her as an invaluable resource for clients seeking personalized fitness and coaching services. The episode encourages leaders to prioritize preventative wellness and provides the resources to start your journey to a healthier work-life balance. About Erin AshbacherErin Ashbacher, a distinguished Senior Health Advisor and CSEP-certified personal trainer, is a driving force in health, wellness, and fitness. Armed with a Bachelor of Kinesiology from The University of Calgary, Erin, a powerlifter and former dancer, seamlessly combines expertise in movement, nutrition, and motivation.As the owner of ERA Fitness, Erin boasts a top 10 industry performance since 2016, offering personalized training and coaching services. Her approach, emphasizing life balance and aligning health with professional goals, positions her as a key collaborator for leadership development clients in Calgary and beyond. Erin's superpowers encompass listening, goal-setting, movement expertise, and the ability to create customized programs, both in-person and online. Rooted in a famous Alberta rodeo family, she brings a unique appreciation for farming and ranching to her multifaceted lifestyle, which includes enjoying outdoor activities with her partner, Doug.Resources discussed in this episode:Julie Freedman Smith--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Erin Ashbacher | ERA Fitness: TWE: teamworkexcellence.com/aboutEmail: erashbacher@yahoo.ca--Transcript:Erin 00:01There's definitely been a lot of people who think that being busy is really, you know, the gold standard and you know, making sure that we do it all. And it's hard when you're working in cardiac rehab, and you see people that have all of a sudden just been stopped in their tracks. And it made me really realize that preventative medicine, preventative wellness is where we want to be. Tim 00:25I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership podcast. This is episode 29. Tim 00:59Hey, everybody, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership. Today, I am thrilled to introduce to you somebody that I've known for years now. I mean, I think we've known each other since 2014. Or maybe even before that 2013, 2012? This is Erin Ashbacher. Erin and I met years ago when Erin was my trainer at a gym. And I would say it's been a friendship I value more and more every year that I know you. So, welcome, Erin. Erin 01:29Oh, thanks, Tim. That's so sweet of you, I very much value our friendship as well. So, thank you.  Tim 01:36And for those of you that work with TWE, you'll know that Erin is our in-house trainer. Fun stat is about 90% of the executives that I work with rank their health and their balance as one of the things on the life side of the work-life equation that always needs work. And so recognizing this, I'm not qualified in this area but I sure as heck know somebody who is. Erin is part of our team and as well as running your own business, ERA Fitness. Erin is our key associate in this area. So, happy to have you as part of that team There.  Erin 02:12Yeah, I'm super thrilled to be part of the TWE team as well. Yeah. Tim 02:17So, Erin, why don't we just take a moment and besides what I know about you, why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself to everybody that's listening today? Erin 02:25I'm a Kinesiologist and went to school at the University of Calgary for Exercise and Health Physiology, started my career in cardiac rehabilitation, which was the scary side of being in kinesiology right, like people have already done and experienced a really traumatic thing and now they're super grateful to have a second chance. It was a really great learning experience for me and it was where I wanted to start my career. And then I eventually brought myself back to Calgary where I got to work downtown, and I went into kind of the corporate world and got to work with ton of wonderful, wonderful clients from all walks of life, you know, and got to experience what it's like to work hard, not only from like, I want to complete this race on the weekend, but just like a stress management perspective with my clients of getting them to be able to kind of add that health and wellness into their world. Yeah. And then I've gotten a chance to be part of a little bit part of everything that interests me, I've got my mountain bike coaching certificate, and I've been doing that for the last few years, worked with snowboarding and got my coaching with snowboarding. Although, I will admit I'm a horrible snowboarder. I just really love doing it and I enjoy coaching. Yeah, so that's my kind of professional career. And yeah, I grew up in rural Alberta, part of a big family on a ranch with cattle and sheep and I still to this day, well along with a lot of help from my parents run 100 head of meat breed sheep, which is super exciting, to just continue to be part of that. Tim 04:09And for those listeners that are listening from around the world, you may know that Calgary and the Calgary Stampede is a big part of our heritage here. We are an agricultural province besides oil and gas, that is one of our key areas. And of course, the Ashbacher family is renowned as being one of the big rodeo families in the province. And so something that I always think it's such a neat aspect to your life and what a thing to be involved in as well. I mean, you're a powerlifter, I think that's important to mention. And you're an award-winning trainer. You're not just a kinesiologist and a trainer run of the mill, you are award-winning.  Erin 04:47Yeah, I was recognized for I think four years in a row with my company as being the top trainer. It's interesting because it was never something I was really necessarily aiming for. But when you're doing what you love and things are just kind of clicking in place, it just made sense to me that all of a sudden, I found myself on top. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of cool. Like who knew? Yeah. Tim 05:07And I love when you talk to me about what you're learning and where you're going, that you're so active in that space. I mean, you're still attending conferences, you're still up on the literature, you're not passive when it comes to continuing to grow and to develop and to learn and to stay on the cutting edge of what it means to help others be healthy. Erin 05:25Absolutely. Our industry is constantly evolving, and there's constantly new evidence-based research out there that can be implemented. And I think it's really important to understand like how our society is evolving, and how the people around us are evolving, and how we can continue to make sure that, you know, health doesn't come in a bottle, that health is one of those things that we need to continue to invest in. And knowing how I can help assist my clients with that is really important. So yeah, continuing education is a big part of that. Tim 05:59Yeah, and I think for anybody listening, many people will have been exposed to trainers. And a lot of trainers are kind of fly by night, it's something that they're doing in the part-time, it's something that they do just so that they can, you know, I don't know, they don't tend to be educated much beyond what they're getting on the job site. For those of you listening, Erin is not that, okay? This is somebody who I admire because professionally, you are gripping and ripping it. I mean, you are always expressing yourself to the utmost of your potential. And that's something that I find inspiring. So again, just happy to have you here. And I can't wait till we get into what we're talking about. So, when we thought of having you on the show, we're really thinking about this balance that I see so many of my clients have, which is although they're excelling in their professional lives, and they're shooting for higher and higher levels of impact with their teams, perhaps going on promotions, and they tend to be you know, these are really leaders in whatever industry that they're in, they can still struggle with health. And an interesting stat, as I say is 90% of them will have health concerns. They don't feel like they're quite as balanced as they want to be in that area. And the other part is any of them with kids also tend to have 90% of people with kids had family concerns, which is why as you know, we have Julie on the other side with the family expertise. But for you, when you come through cutting your teeth with cardiac rehabilitation, and having been around business stress and professional stress, a lot of my life, we're no stranger to seeing people go down from that as a problem. Because it's often one of the things that people who work too hard and don't look after themselves have to face. How does that ready you or lead you towards your thoughts on the importance of one's leading their own health? Can you speak a little bit to that for me? Erin 07:59Yeah, I mean, there's definitely been a lot of people who think that being busy is really, you know, the gold standard, and you know, making sure that we do it all. And it's hard when you're working in cardiac rehab, and you see people that have all of a sudden just been stopped in their tracks. And it made me really realize that preventative medicine, preventative wellness is where we want to be. And I've always kind of said to my clients, like, let's try and make small steps for a better, more active, healthier lifestyle today, so that we don't get that big stop of, oh, gosh, we've had a cardiac event and now we need to change your life completely, right? When you're all of a sudden taken out of work and being able to care for your family because you've had this serious cardiac event. We don't need to get there, we can pull it back. And we can take care of it right now in small doses, that compound and build on each other in a really positive way. So, you know, making sure that we're taking care of our stress and taking care of our physical health as well as our mental health. Absolutely. Tim 09:06There's no shortage of examples of people who don't even get the chance to second crack, they work their entire lives, and they can often be very successful. They don't get a chance to enjoy retirement, they don't get a chance to see what's on the other side of all that hard work. They're always waiting for tomorrow, aren't they? And I speak from experience here. You're always waiting for tomorrow. Erin 09:27I don't have time today. I'll do it tomorrow. Yeah. Well, even some of my clients that have reached retirement, and they've had a really successful career, and now that they're retired, they're like, oh, now I'm going to take care of my health. But maybe they have an ailment that has been kind of creeping around on them. And so they just feel like they're starting at a really deep bottom. Like, oh man, if I would have just started going to the gym or being a little bit more active in my 40s or my 50s. Now that I'm in my 60s, I wouldn't have to deal with this big mountain, right? And then it can be a bit discouraging to people when they kind of thought that their retirement was going to be one way. And their health and physical limitations are creating some a different story for them. Right? So yeah, let's take care of it today. Tim 10:14I was facilitating and teaching a room of about 40 Higher Education executives last week. I was sharing with them, you know, we often think about how are we going to empower our staff, or our faculties, right? And the interesting thing about that is I was showing them how often when people start a job, they are never going to have more potential, they're never going to feel more optimistic about growth. And then we start to scuff them up. And the leader can inadvertently push that person down and liquidate that person's sense of potential and sense of growth. And then we're in a position where we have to build it back up. And I'm reminded of that as you're speaking, because we would never knowingly want to liquidate someone else's health and then have them have to try to on the back foot, get it back. We wouldn't let an employee do that. That would be outside the value set for so many of the people that I work with. But we seem awfully comfortable letting ourselves liquidate our health and then having to find ourselves on the backfoot trying to gain back our health, right, trying to gain back our fitness or trying to gain back because we had an event or where we've now had a nagging injury that's gotten worse and worse and worse. We would never treat anybody else like that. But we seem quite comfortable letting that be the standard of our self-care. Is that something that you see, too?  Erin 11:43Yeah, absolutely. Like, like you said, you would never let your spouse treat you that way. But yet you're willing to treat yourself that way. You'd never let your leader treat your employees like that, right? Tim 11:55Yeah, there's people that will take their dog for a walk because they don't want their dog to be overweight, right? But they won't make the time to take themselves for a walk. To keep themselves in fitness.  Erin 12:05I think some of the limitation on that too comes from there's this idea that taking care of your health and being physically active is a bit of a luxury, right? It's a luxury in time. It's a luxury in finances if you're paying for a gym membership, or whatever. And so this idea that I'm being selfish if I'm carving out this time for my health, and so I don't want to be selfish because I want to make sure I'm giving to my team or giving to my family. And so we kind of easily just kind of, you know, sweep it under the rug. I'll do that tomorrow. Right? And yeah, it's something that we are saying to ourselves that we really need to change in my opinion. Tim 12:48Erin, I want to play you a little clip here and get your thoughts on it as we continue here. If you don't mind? Audio Clip 12:52Baby, I feel sorry for you. Did you forget your headphone? Stop being a girly man and work out. I don't have enough time. Which of course the biggest bullshit I've ever heard because we have 24 hours a day. You didn't have time for working out, you're not having time for taking care of your body, are you out of your mind? You don't have time. Manage your time better. Okay? The gym is too busy, well then go at five in the morning, you forehead. Okay? Have you ever seen a gym at five in the morning? There's almost no one there. So, just get up early and go to the gym early. Tim 13:28So, Erin what do you think when we hear Arney speak there? Erin 13:31It's a bit tipsy. Right? But I mean, it makes you laugh. And there's so much truth to it. I mean, we do, we have a ton of time in our days, you know, are we scrolling for an hour? What are we doing that we can put something more positive in, you know, we get so much more out of it. Right? So, stop making excuses. If you need accountability, find someone that can keep you accountable, right? Whether that's your trainer, right? Well-educated trainer, or whether that's a good friend, that you guys are making a commitment to each other. But yeah, he's not wrong. Take care of your body. Tim 14:05It's funny because he talks about, you know, I love how he uses the term, you know, get up at five in the morning, you forehead. And I don't know if this is what he means. But I feel like half the time we're in our own brains. We talk ourselves out of stuff. Practically most people know why it's important to work out. Most people understand why it's important to put in the effort and put in the time and not slack on that, like we understand, theoretically, that people have to exercise. We've received all of the information for the most part. Very few people can claim to be ignorant, that it's not important to you know, at least be active if not engage in resistance training or do something cardiovascularly. So, we don't need a lot of science to tell us that's important. And in many cases, we know we feel better when we go and we do it. So, why in your experience, do people find it so hard? What are some of the excuses? Or baby excuses that you hear? Erin 15:05So many baby excuses. Yeah. I mean, one of the big ones is, well, I just don't have a full hour to dedicate, or like, you know, an hour and a half to dedicate, by the time I get there and then get back to the office. Yeah, so I just like to tell people like stop making it so rigid. Like nobody said, your workout has to be an hour, you have 20 minutes, go for a really nice brisk walk, call it a good one. Try again, tomorrow, right? Doesn't have to be this rigid time interval. So, that's definitely a big excuse that I've heard. The other one that I've heard is always this. Well, you know, my boss won't let me get away from the office. And I'm at the office for nine hours a day. And then there's an hour commute. So it comes down to that, I don't have time. Yeah. But then they tell me about all the TV shows that they watch when like, maybe you can be working out while you're watching those TV shows, I don't know. Tim 15:53Yeah, or they take a bunch of time to record a podcast. When Sandra Sherry and Arnold Schwarzenegger mean. You know, if we think about the time issue, and we think that really we could break it up into different choices, 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there. Another team I'm working with, when we went through, and we were looking at getting back a sense of camaraderie and teamwork that they seem to have lost. We talked about one of the traditions that they had lost, one of their senior leaders or senior colleagues had always gone around and tapped everybody on the shoulder and said, Come on, we're going for a walk for 15 minutes. And then as the group got younger, and he started to question whether or not he was sort of had the same sway or, because it was lateral. He wasn't their boss, he was their colleague, he stopped doing it. And he assumed that nobody wanted to be bothered. And he felt like he was bothering people. But the interesting thing was, is that I talked to those younger staff, and they were all like, Man, I sure miss when so and so would tap me on the shoulder and say, Come on, let's just go for a walk. And I really miss that. And so it's funny how we talk ourselves into these excuses. And look, I'm no expert here, you've heard me talk myself into excuses all the time. I was dealing with a knee replacement but I had focused because I knew that if I didn't get that movement back, and it's turned out well. But if I didn't get it back in six weeks, I was not going to see significant improvement. But since then, like I fell on my can over the Christmas holiday and so I had a sore butt. That sore butt has been a pretty convenient excuse for not getting up and moving. Right? And it's really late at home to me just how rampant sitting disease or I don't know what we call it officially. But you know, spending a lot of time sitting in an office, working virtually, working on technical things, is such an easy way to see yourself slip. So, very quickly. And then the little pains in the age start to come in. And we have reinforcers that oh, you know, it's hard. And you know, I've talked about this, but why is that such a flawed formula? You're hard on me, I'm alright with it. Erin 18:24That's loaded. I mean, it is hard. But I feel like most of us when we think about okay, we need to go back to the gym. Like I said, it comes back to that rigidity, if it has to be me lifting weights at my max capacity, it has to be me going to the pool for an hour, it has to be right and it doesn't have to be. It's so easy to just say this is going to be hard, and I'm going to be in pain and I won't be able to sit properly for a month after I start. So, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that pain, right? And I think that like I said, your physical fitness needs to be and your physical health needs to come in as a lifestyle change, right? Go for a 20-minute walk. I am stressed out about all the things that have been flying at me on my keyboard today. I'm just going to take a moment and go for a 15-minute walk. And it might be brisk, or it might be strolling. You need to choose your own adventure in that right but stop getting wound up and all of the things that you think it has to be. Tim 19:25And it's so counterintuitive, because if I feel really stressed, often it can be like Oh, I'm stressed I got so much to do. I better stay at my desk and slug it out, versus saying you know what? If I went for a 15-minute walk I'd probably come back and be even more productive.  Erim 19:41Absolutely, and there's there's tons of research that shows that that actually happens right? Even me, I had something come up just recently super stressed. I didn't know where to turn I needed to talk it out. I phoned up my bestie and I'm like we need to go walk the track because it's winter so we're walking the track instead of outside and you know we're gonna go do a workout. And we got five ways around the track. And I said, No, I still need to keep walking and venting. I can't I'm not ready to lift weights yet. And it was great. We had a, you know, short impromptu weight session after that, but there was no intention of doing weights. I just wanted to go for a walk and get it out. Right? So yeah, we just need to stop. And then just do. Yeah. Tim 20:24You forehead. Erin 20:25Yeah, I have one of my clients, they put a sticky note on their computer. And just when it gets hard, go for a walk, right? Or do 10 Push-ups, right, like, get away from that stress thing, the oh my gosh, my to-do list is 150 things long. And I only have 10 hours to do it in and just take 10 minutes, 15 minutes to yourself. They'll come back better. Tim 20:49Yeah. Julie has this thing. Again, Julie Freedman Smith is on the parenting side of our association here. But she talks about not having to be rigid around, Oh, we had a good day parenting and if in the first, let's say you have a messy morning, and then you know, the breakfast was kids were fired up. And it was they were whining and whatever. And then you're like, Oh, my whole day is shot now. She's like, What are you talking about? Like, there's another interaction coming around the corner, do well in that, like, start granulating your day down to saying, I can't get away for an hour, you've told me this, I can't go to the gym for an hour. So, I'm not gonna go. It's like, well, whatever, go to the gym for 20 minutes, or don't go to the gym, go to the grocery store and buy a couple of four litres of milk and walk home with them or do whatever, right? And it doesn't have to be fancy. Focus on the outcomes, not the definition of this is the only way to do it or your window is closed. Often it just we have to consider, is it our own limiting belief or our own definition of what things have to be that is flawed? There's a bunch of different ways to do it. And I remember seeing how people who are training for long-distance running. When you look at the much less affluent teams in Africa, when they're training distance runners. They have training regimes and equipment and stuff, which people would think comes from a junkyard half the time, it doesn't matter because they're focused on what's the roots of what they're trying to do. And what are the outcomes that they're seeking? They're not worried about how it shows up. It's just about getting it done in a way that's always moving towards progress. Because if they were locked into that they had to, you know, you're part of some community that doesn't have a lot of money and you're locked into some thinking that you have to have the latest and greatest equipment or you can't compete, they would never be showing the way that they're showing in the Boston Marathon or anything like that. They would be so paralyzed by all the things that can't be.  Erin 23:00Yeah, we need to we need to practice I feel being more a yes and when it comes to our fitness. Like, oh, my days crazy busy. I have to run to this meeting. And then I have to run with my kids. Yeah, and? Where can we put in 20 minutes of exercise? You dropped off your kids at the center, so they can go do their thing. And there's a gym right there that you have access to go spend 30 minutes, why not? Right? Yes, and, instead of the no, but.  Tim 23:27Yeah. I think of Gabby Reese, right? Gabby Reese is an Olympic volleyball player, married to Stuart Laird, the championship surfer. And I've talked about this before, she talks about this going first mentality where it's just like, sometimes you just need to risk it. Get off your biscuit and risk it. Right? So, what really makes it hard? Does life make it hard? Or the way we perceive life makes it hard? Erin 23:58Oh, the way we perceive it for sure. Right? That's a no-brainer to me. Tim 24:04One of the things I love about these conversations is I get to put myself forward as a proxy for the audience. You and I've had a lot of these conversations in part before, but it's always a rediscovery. I mean, and I'm being sincere here when I say every time I talk with you, it's enlightening. And I can't wait for other people to experience this when they get you one-on-one. But one of the emotions that this raises for me is I start to get really frustrated with myself. I start to be like, You know what, sweet, you know better than because right now, like I've told you, I mean, I'm dealing with a bit of back pain and the rest of it, but I know darn well when I was working at that university and I chose to walk back to the hotel instead of getting a cab and I'm rigged to walk back to the hotel, I wear certain shoes and I wear a backpack so that I can walk if I want to and I made that choice. The next day was better. I know what the math says. But I still, despite the knowing I managed to slip in behind and have to keep sort of vigilant about this stuff. Erin 25:07It doesn't easily become our lifestyle change, right? But giving yourself the opportunity to be ready for it right like wearing the right shoes, I have a backpack too, I'm ready to walk anywhere for any amount of time. And you know, it's late at night, I'll just hop in a cab instead, right? It becomes easy to like, take that second to stop and be like, No, I am equipped to walk back, I can do this, right? Any habit change is hard. So, when it comes to our fitness, just being able to give ourselves the best opportunity to just take that pause and say, Yeah, I'm gonna walk or I'm gonna do 10 Push Ups before I sit on the couch, or whatever it is, right? I like to give my clients these like tiny little challenges which amount to a lot when they stick with them. I think I've given you this one before Tim or like, I want you to go for at least a 20-minute walk every day. Tim 25:58Or intentional movement 20 minutes a day. Erin 25:59Intentional movement for 20 minutes, right, gives you a lot of opportunity to choose what that is. I've also given you the opportunity to do 50 pushups a day, they don't have to be all at once do 10 in the morning, before you get out of the bedroom and to the kitchen and do 10 more before, you know, sit back down at your desk, right? But eventually, I want you to do 50 in one day, and, and they can look all sorts of different ways. People say to me, I can't do a push-up. Great, but you can do a wall push-up. So, let's start there, right? Tim 26:31You can do a push-up against the stairs if you need to. Erin 26:35Yeah, so, when I'm working with my clients, I try to find, talk to them and find ways that we can add more movement into their day. So, that when they get to that one training session, or two training sessions, or three training sessions a week, they're not feeling like I haven't done anything since the last time I saw you. Right? Like, I want to give you that ability to just pause and say yes, and, every time you can.  Tim 27:00I like that, because it's you know, we often talked about pattern before perfection. I remember listening to one guy say, you know, even if you get in your car, and listen, he was talking about the gym, but he says even if you get in your car and you drive to the gym, you sit in the parking lot, you decide you're not going to go in, you drive home that it's still better than having stayed in bed. Right? Because sooner or later, you're gonna figure out well, I'm already here, I'm going to go or whatever. And I think it doesn't have to be that complex. But like before you get nailed that, oh, I need to be cracking off 50 pushups the way I did when I was 18. Which I will say there's one thing that I think is really interesting, and that is for people who have been athletes in the past. And then if let things slip, I do believe there's like a mental barrier to come through because I've been a high performance, not professional, but I've been a high-performance high school athlete where I was, you know, captain of teams and wrestling and training all the time before my knees were shot. And I remember what those days were like, and I remember what it felt like, everything was in flow, and it was working. And then you know, you're like, Okay, well, I'm gonna try to do this again. And suddenly, it's like, well, wait a minute, guess what? You sit on your can for 20 years and yeah, burpees aren't gonna be that easy. So, we kind of disappoint ourselves. And then we get all in our heads. Erin 28:26So many of my clients have had this experience, like when I was 20. And like, yeah, you've sat on your butt for 20 years, right? Or I've even got the privilege of training some ex Olympic athletes, right? And they do the same thing. Oh, man, when I was training and like we always remember ourselves at our peak, we always remember what it felt like and how good we felt and how good we looked. When we are at the peak of our performance. We rarely ever remember what the first day felt like, right? And even myself, a competitive powerlifter, a couple of years, 2020-2021. I didn't train, I just wasn't lifting weights. It was not a possibility for me in my life and man got back into the gym and immediately wanted to go right back to Okay, this is where I stopped/left off training two years ago. Like, wait that's not where we start. And I was fortunate enough that I went through a back injury, which is what got me into powerlifting that I could remember, remember how crappy that felt when you started powerlifting. Let's go back to not the back injury, but just easing my way into it and giving myself the grace to come back to where I want to be, right? And like just because you were competitive 20 years ago, doesn't mean you to be competitive today. It's not necessarily about the competition, right? It's about making the best choices for yourself and your body so that you can make the best choices for your life. Tim 29:53So, one thing is that there's if we were to make sure we have that in the notes. The one thing is it's not about necessarily turning back to what you were capable of before. But accepting what means progress today. I think there's a counterpoint to that, that I'd like to talk about a little bit. And that is, sometimes we get very complacent about, we may be stuck with what we've got as well. So, then there's the other side of that, which is to say, it doesn't have to be what it was when we were 20 but there's lots to work on. And I'll give you a little story, when I was going through just recently here and getting a checkup on my knees and whatnot. So that involves getting a lot of X-rays and things like that. I was flipping through and researching, you know, this back issue and looking for, what does the skeleton look like? Just to educate myself. And I ran across some photos, and I'm gonna share one with you now. And I am going to put it in the show notes so that people can see it, and I'll put a link to it on the website, so people can take a look at this. And what this was, is I was going in for something called a scattergram, I used to have a leg that was almost three-quarters of an inch, but a centimetre shorter than the other, just through fluke or tremendous skill of my surgeon, now the Delta, the distance between leg length is less than two millimetres. And so I've got almost an equidistant leg length. And that's great, because my mechanics in my body are a lot more in line, although my body's getting used to it, which, you know, is still happening two years later. Anyway, I'm looking at these X-rays, and I'm gonna show these to you. One was sort of an illustration, the other was a full-body scan. And it was, you know, of people of various widths, I will say, I looked at these X-rays, you can see, well, the ones in illustration, you can see a simulation of two skeletons, which are the same skeleton. But one is showing a person that's carrying about 50 pounds, 80 pounds of extra weight, but the skeleton is the same size. And then when you look at people that might be the on the much more heavy, morbidly obese side of things, their skeleton is the same size as anybody else's. But sometimes in my mind's eye, and I'm a big guy, and you know, it's like, I'm more of a cartoon skeleton like we would have seen in WALL-E or something where this is all bone under here. Well it's not. I mean, my skeleton is still my 20-year-old skeleton, in a sense, it might be a little more beat up. But I've hung a ton of stuff off this frame. You know, I've hung sure muscle and stuff. But I've also hung a–Erin 32:39A little bit of adipose tissue. Tim 32:40A little bit of pasta on some you know what it means, beer, is hanging off of there a little too much cheese and whatever. But you know, when I showed this to my wife, we were like, you know, this is actually quite a powerful image to have in your head to say, there is a delta here, there is a gap that we can close that it's possible, there's still this skeleton, this smaller form within us that we've decided to surround with things. So, from a weight loss perspective, because some people deal with that. There's so much potential, there's so much, so much can happen. And maybe for some people, it's more running distance, or cardiovascular or putting on muscle mass, or bone strength and bone density or whatever their particular gap is that they're closing. But it's not so much that you have to shoot for the old 20-year-old version of yourself. But what can you do today? Where's the potential? Because there's that saying, you know, if you want to know what you're committed to look at what you've got. And at the end of the day, there's only so many explanations for why a person could find themselves out of their own version of optimum health. People have different challenges in the rest of it. But are you doing the best with what you've got? Yeah, maybe you've got an endocrine issue, or you've got whatever, but are you doing the best you've got with that?  Erin 34:19Yeah, well, and I mean, there's this. Yeah, there's this evolution, right? I think that it's important for people to remember that. I mean, when I think back to when I was in high school, I was a competitive dancer, and I loved dancing. It was it was amazing. And, you know, I went to university and that wasn't an option anymore for me. And so I casually went to the weight room because I thought that should be something I was doing. And, you know, and then got into running when I came back from Australia because I was broke and I needed to do something physically active. Which by the way, I'm like, I admire runners because I ran every day or every six days a week for over a year, and I still don't enjoy running, so go runners. Good. Good on ya. Yeah, and then, you know, I after a back injury fell into powerlifting. And I mean, can I lift my leg over my head? Like I could and do the splits? Like I could when I was a dancer. Absolutely not. I cannot do that anymore. But that's okay. Because I became a runner for a short period of time I became a powerlifter. I took up mountain biking in 2020. And now I get to be a mountain biker, and I love cycling. So, I can bemoan the things that I don't have. And like, oh, well, I used to do this. And I used to love it. And my body used to be able to do this. Or I can say, Yeah, and I get to do this today, I get to fall in love with a new sport, a new activity, a new social engagement, right? So, I think that it's super important for all of us to just kind of be like, Yeah, we could do that. And that's okay, that this is where we're starting today. Tim 35:57So having that optimism and that openness, and that idea that things are possible, is important. And then there's the just, let's take a step.  Erin 36:09Yeah, let's let's put our heads down and be a bit serious about the fact that this is important to you, it's important to the people around you, and you need to get it done. Tim 36:18So, for people that are leading others, let's go back to this. That is our core mandate here, although we serve everybody, but for people that are leading others, maybe they're parents, maybe they're teachers, maybe they are working as leaders in a business, what would you like them to focus on when it comes to their particular set of excuses? If you could boil that down to sort of three key things that you think they should be taking away? Erin 36:45Three? Only three Tim?  Tim 36:46Okay, well, let's remove the number. What would you like people to think about? Erin 36:51I want people to think about the fact that when they're investing in themselves, in their health, in their wellness, it's not selfish, right? Like, this is not that you're taking away time from your team or taking away time from your family, it's that you're giving yourself back in an even better way. Right? Be a bit hard with yourself about making sure you're being active, there's so much benefit to being physically active. We have so much research to support that. Make sure you carve out that time, right? Whether it's daily, this time works for me 5 am, every morning, and let your spouse know that and you don't get into the office until seven, if that happens, or whatever time it is, right? I don't like daily, my schedules change every single day. So, I like sitting down on Sundays and planning weekly. But you know, you have to find out what works for you. Right? And then yeah, whatever excuse there is, find a best friend, whether it's yourself or whether it's an actual best friend to say, okay, yeah, that's just a roadblock that you're putting in the way let's find a way around that. Right? Tim 37:55When we deal with personal achievement, or making change in an organization or making change as I work with people around their careers, and coach them, it's important that one person's incentive is not necessarily going to work for somebody else. Do you understand yourself because if we think about some of the key ways in which a person is gonna see success, can they translate that into some into a currency that works for them? Some people, it's going to be achievement, it's going to be, you know, running a race or getting a bucket list thing off their life list. For other people, it will be social. For other people, it's going to be doing it because it's logical, and they enjoy the science behind it or something along those lines. Other people will be witnessing their own improvement. And other people, it'll be that sense of control, like so much today, we can trace back to longevity efforts, and those kind of things. And I mean, it's a million other things. But it's not all about you, sport. And it's not about like, No, all of those things can make us not just better for ourselves, but better for everybody that cares about us and the people that rely on us. And you know, that idea of it being just selfish. What a cop-out because it's like, what's really selfish is the fact that you're willing to liquidate yourself, you know, nobody will enjoy you and you won't be nice to be around and you'll be frickin miserable or whatever. You know, find your currency man. Holy moly, maybe that's money. I did this exercise and I remember telling you about it. But I figured out that every pound I carry that's extra costs me I figure and if you ever want to know the formula, feel free to give me a ring. But I figure costs me about $2,700 in productivity and marketing potential. And I've got real justifiable reasons for that. I actually think that it limits my market potential, I think it limits my productivity and confidence and everything that a person in my position who motivates others and has to inspire others can't afford. You cannot give away what you don't have. As we wrap up here, tell us, what's one thing that you're working on that's got you really excited? What's something that's coming up in your future? What's on your Horizon that fires you up, personally?  Erin 40:28Oh, for the first time, no, that's not true. Not the first time, I've put my entire summer towards coaching mountain biking and training clients exclusively. And so it's been this really fun balance of figuring out where I'm going to be on my mountain bike, but also having access to my clients when I need to be with them. And so I'm really excited about my summer I have coming up. For me, any day on my bike, it's a good day, except that one time, no, I'm kidding. Yeah. So, I'm really excited about my summer. It's kind of a bit of an experiment to kind of juggle this mountain bike coaching gig and my business. So yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to. TIM 41:14You know how deep TWE is in that. So, stay tuned, everybody. If people want to get in touch with you, where should they look for? Erin 41:21Right now I'm working on a new website. It's not up yet. But as soon as it is, I will send it to Tim, best way to get a hold of me is my email address, which is EARashbacher@yahoo.ca. Fire me an email and I'll get back to you right away, we can set up a virtual call and or an in-person call if you're in the area, and we can get you rolling on whatever questions you have, or whatever fitness journey you're wanting to embark on, for sure. Tim 41:49And for any of you that are already under contract with me, remember that Erin is part of the TWE team. And so, I'm not trying to be possessive there. I'm saying until you get your website up and we link to it. You can always find her at TWE.teamabout and take a look at everything awesome about Erin there. So, you are easy to get a hold of we're gonna make sure all of those dates are in the show notes. Okay, tell me a little bit about, if there's one takeaway that you could say, everybody here and you mentioned it a little bit earlier. But recap for me at this point in the conversation for everybody listening? What do you hope for them? What's your wish for them?  Erin 42:31Yeah, my wish is that everyone knows that investing in their health and their wellness is going to always give back in so many new ways, and so many different ways and all other aspects of their life.  Tim 42:46So, like any other change program, or investment we would make in business or any institution that we're working on. Let's take a look at this is not an area of cost. This is an area of investment. And we have to see it that way. And recognize it. Recognize it for all the good stuff it gives us back. Okay, awesome. Erin, I just want to tell you how happy I am that you took the time with me today to go through this and I know it's going to do a lot of good for a lot of people. And I can't wait to see how the world opens up for you. And for everybody that you help. Erin 43:21Oh, thanks, Tim. Super appreciated being on today and I had a lot of fun. Tim 43:25Thanks so much for joining us. Tim 43:33Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading. Tim 44:12Hey, did you have fun? Erin 44:17I had a ton of fun, Tim.  Tim 44:19Awesome. We've got some great people coming up. If you were to give me a question to pose to them that I guarantee I will ask them what would be a question you'd like me to throw by other leadership experts?  Erin 44:32Yeah, I want to know when does the imposter syndrome stop as a leader? Yeah. Tim 44:37Yeah. We'll make sure to talk about that. Newsflash. It never stops. Erin 44:41Oh, good. I'm not alone. Tim 44:42No, that's fine. But we didn't learn to deal with it in a much different way. And it can actually believe it or not, can be something that's an area of strength for you. So, stay tuned. We're gonna get somebody else to weigh in on that question. Thanks again, Erin. Erin 44:58Thanks, Tim. Tim 44:59Okay, Big hugs

Discover the powerful parallels between poker and leadership as Tim Sweet engages with Erin Lydon, President of Poker Power. Erin, with a Wall Street background, shares insights into teaching poker for leadership excellence. The discussion explores vital skills like courage, risk-taking, and resilience, drawing parallels between poker strategy and effective decision-making in various contexts. Erin highlights poker as a confidence and negotiation tool, especially for women in business. The conversation delves into key poker strategies, emphasizing their practical applications. Erin also discusses Poker Power's impact on corporate programs and its mission to empower young women early in their careers. The episode concludes with Erin's advice for leaders: embrace change, say "yes" more than "no," and recognize the transformative power of taking risks.About Erin LydonErin Lydon, President of Poker Power, is a finance industry veteran and advocate for workplace equity. Fueled by her early challenges on Wall Street, Erin founded Poker Power to empower women through poker-based leadership training. With a background at JPMorgan and as a strategic advisor to Evil Geniuses, a global e-sports organization, Erin brings extensive experience to her mission. Recognized with the Global Gaming Women “Women of Inspiration–Woman to Watch” award, she holds an MBA from Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management and a BA from Bates College. Erin is a sought-after speaker, having graced prestigious stages like TEDx and Money 20/20 RiseUp. Erin's dynamic leadership journey, commitment to workplace equity, and pioneering efforts at Poker Power showcase her as a trailblazer, inspiring women globally to harness the strategic prowess of poker for personal and professional success.Resources discussed in this episode:Inventures: Inventurescanada.comDuncan Wardle: duncanwardle.comDon't Just Do Something, Stand ThereJPMorgan: jpmorganchase.comContact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Erin Lydon | Poker Power: Website: pokerpower.comInstagram: @joinpokerpowerTwitter: @joinpokerpowerFacebook: Poker PowerTikTok: @joinpokerpowerLinkedin: Erin Lydon Transcript:Erin 00:00So often at a poker table, nobody has a made hand, you know. So, it really is going to come down to the person who's going to play their chips most aggressively and get the other players to fold. That person is going to win the hand. That is something you have to practice, shoving your chips all in, when you have imperfect information, you don't know the cards still to come. And you certainly don't know what the other players have. That's a learned skill. Because it's scary. Tim 00:30I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to the 24th episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 01:03Welcome back, everybody. Thanks again for joining us for Sweet on Leadership. My name is Tim Sweet and this is my special guest Erin Lydon. Erin, thank you so much for joining us today. Erin 01:11Delighted to be here, Tim. Tim 01:13Well, you and I had a chance to meet last summer here in Calgary as we were both presenting at Inventures, which was a tech and startup conference here in the city. And that sure was a lot of fun. I remember we first met sitting at a table on the very first day during the keynote. Erin 01:29We did and actually, I thought you were one brilliant, two really funny, and three really easy to talk to. So, it was a great first experience for me at Inventures. Tim 01:39Well, I thought you were absolutely welcoming. You were game for anything. And we just took the challenges of the speaker and it was Duncan Wardle, I remember. And he was giving us games to play. And we just jumped right in. And it was so much fun. So, I knew right away that I had a person next to me who loved to play games. And what you might not know about me is that I actually have a long history and a love for Dungeons and Dragons of all things. Because it teaches people, well, a. it's role-playing. So, you're allowed to go and have a different experience and get out of your own head. And at the same time, it's like improv. So it's several people sitting around, and I played with my kids now. And it's like you're writing a story together. So, you learn to pick out people who are game, who are ready to just, you know, drop all the pretense.  Erin 02:33Yeah, I take that as a huge compliment. Because during that session, we really did have to put down our barriers and get very vulnerable. And remember, we had to draw, you are much better at illustration than I was, but there was just there's a lot of connection that happened quickly through that session. So, I'm thrilled we're back together for another conversation. Tim 02:51Oh, that's wonderful. I think for everybody listening here, it would be remiss of me to not give you a chance to just explain who you are. I mean, I know. And the really exciting thing that you bring and that you brought to Inventures and that you're bringing here today. Erin 03:07I am Erin Lydon, and I'm the president of Poker Power. I've been in this role for almost four years. We are a startup, I say we're a long-standing startup at this point. So, we have made it we're over those initial barriers of startups. But that's really not who I am, you know, deep down or for most of my life. I was not a poker player. And I'm sure we'll get into that. But I have been in startups since 2012. I love the chaos. I love the energy. I love the success and the failure that comes with being in startups. But prior to that, I was on Wall Street. So, I had a very serious corporate job at JPMorgan. I worked with many clients, I traveled three or four days a week. And the only reason I left that job truly was because I had a young daughter, I was getting into my late 30s. And I really struggled on how to be on that very fast track career, and also have a newborn at home. And for listeners who are much younger than I am. This is in the 2000s. And we really didn't have the programs and the policies and the opportunities that now so many firms are making available to working parents and new parents. But before all that I grew up in Maine, so a long way from Calgary, but somewhat similar weather I think. Truly, I just had a terrific childhood. You know, I spent most of my summers on the ocean, on the main coast, on a sailboat, and went to college in Maine at Vates and then moved to Chicago, and shortly thereafter went to business school at Northwestern, and everything started from there.  Tim 04:29That's excellent. And when you think about an industry and a location to cut your teeth, in the professional world, I can think of few examples that are more aggressive than Wall Street. So, I mean, you were in with both feet. This is not for the faint of heart. Erin 04:48No, and I didn't go into it with eyes wide open. I'll be honest, I had been in healthcare previously before going to business school and actually expected to go into healthcare management. I loved, I was a fundraiser primarily raising money for cancer and women's health programs. And really saw that as my career path forward when I was in my mid-20s. What happened in Business School is one, I figured out that I was very bad at consulting interviews, because that's the direction I was heading down. So, when I failed at those, I had to pivot pretty quickly. And it was actually one of my dear friends, he said to me, one evening, early in September of our second year, he said, Erin, you should go into banking. And no one had ever said that to me. And my dad's the CFO, you know, he'd worked with nurses his whole career, but I literally had not had a math class in years. And so in order to really make that change, for a career pivot, I had to get a lot of classes, I took a lot of finance classes, in my first semester, and I got very good at interviewing for the banks, and interviewing for the banks is a whole different experience than interviewing for consulting. And it turned out that I was very, very good at solving the questions that they were asking. And so when I, you know, hit Christmas time of my second year, I had eight banking offers. And I really had my choice of where to go next. And I always say I picked JPMorgan because, during my holiday break, my future boss called me one time over the holidays. And he wished me a Merry Christmas and said he hoped my family was well. And the competing firm called me every single day of my holiday break and started to badger me about why I had not accepted the offer. And what that taught me, this was an early tell that I picked up on, is that I am not the type of person who's going to call you every single day and try to make a sale, that would never have been me. So, I realized pretty quickly that I'm not going to fit there. And I fit very, very well at JPMorgan. Tim 06:34There's two things I love about that scene that you've painted for us. The first is that you're not going to be the one that's going to be pushing rope, you want to be pulled into something and you want others to be pulled into something. The other thing is you dropped the word tell. That was an early tell that they gave you which I think pulls us right towards the knowledge that a game like poker can begin to give us. You're in Wall Street, you start your career there. How then does that take you to now? Can you give us a bit of a sense of what the travels were at that point? Erin 07:08It was not at all a linear progression. And truly when I say I would still be at JPMorgan, I would still be at JPMorgan if I had been able to solve for the early motherhood challenges that I experienced. But it ended up being you know, as so many times in life, you know, when the door closes, the window opens. And I think you know, several windows opened for me. The first is that I was able to move into startups. And then secondly, one of my original, very early clients at JPMorgan, I had stayed in touch with all those years. And she had this idea around teaching teenagers how to play poker, particularly teenage girls. And she shared it with me over the holidays in 2019. And I said that's a really stupid idea. And I really meant it. Because my whole time on Wall Street, there was always a poker game going on. And I never felt included. But worse, I never felt like I could ask to sit at that table. I just didn't see myself there. And so poker was always on the periphery. But I was never a part of that game. So, once you have this idea, and what the reason I said it was stupid is because I couldn't fathom outside of you know, James Bond, Hollywood movies, and basement really gross places where men play poker. I couldn't fathom what this could become. Fortunately, she laughed too. And she came back a few weeks later. And she said, No, I really think you need to get involved with this. And that was three weeks before the pandemic. And if you can remember in February, and going into March, none of us thought this pandemic thing was going to last very long. And at that time, when you think about poker, you think about real humans, real chips, real cards, it's very hard to imagine this game in a virtual world, especially when you don't know how to play it. But that's exactly what we had to figure out. And the pandemic was our perfect storm. Because while the teenagers went the wayside because they were so overwhelmed by their new virtual lives, suddenly, every single company around the globe was looking for a way to get us to turn our cameras on, and to engage with each other. And just at that moment, we had created a virtual curriculum. We had a poker app to play on. And we were able to really break down the barriers of bringing the game into companies first in America, and now globally.  Tim 09:17When you think about breaking down barriers, that really is one of the key parts of this, and I thought you'd been in Wall Street, there was a poker game going on all the time, but you were never at the table. And women and even men, often the challenge that they come to me with is I want to go up in the organization, I want to be in with the senior team, how do I get invited to these tables? How do I position myself so that I can, you know, get behind those closed doors so that I can be part of things and that's a huge progression that when leaders are wanting to really accelerate their career up into senior leadership and executive leadership. That's a skill that many people have to stumble upon, and not necessarily learn. So at this point, you've got this, this app, perfect storm, things are rolling. I mean, I remember that wasn't that long ago. But I remember myself getting involved in virtual social activities, just so that we didn't feel like we were going crazy. When we were in the middle of lockdown up here in Canada. You were positioned there. And so what was the initial reaction? Were businesses clamoring to get on this? Was it individuals? Were you originally marketed as this way to get women involved? Erin 10:39We were as soon as we pivoted to corporates. And we actually started with Morningstar. So, a very well-known financial firm headquartered in Chicago. I think back to 2020 and them being willing to take a risk with us because we were clunky. Like every other business that was now a virtual business and trying to figure out how to, you know, engage across the screen. What we figured out pretty quickly though, is 1. Poker has to be fun, doesn't matter who the players are, you have to think this theme is fun in order to want to come back. And then 2. because poker is such an intimidating game, for so many people. It's the jargon, it's the rules, it's the math, all these things prevent people from wanting to engage with the game. We knew very early on, we had to make it highly accessible, and very bite-sized. And if we could get those two things, right, make it fun, so you want to come back, make it approachable and quick to learn, so you only have to remember two or three things in every one of our classes, then you're going to start to engage with us. And that was the secret sauce is exactly as you described him. During that first year, the pandemic, people were looking for regular touch points with other humans. And we were a little tired of talking to the ones that were living in our homes at that point. And so the opportunity to be in a classroom setting, playing a game, getting better at the game. And best of all, in a competitive game, there is something that brings you back. And you have to understand what Poker Power, there's no money transacting. So, there's no gambling, there's no money put into the app, it is truly competing for bragging rights and a leaderboard. And that was enough, it's still enough that you know, you want to see your name at the top of that leaderboard. And that's what we figured out. And then we were able to package it up as leadership development, professional development, and started first with financial firms because that's where we have so many good relationships. And now we have 230 corporate partners. So, we have expanded across industries, all sizes of firms, and women at every level. You know, as much as I love having interns and associates. I also love having the C-suite learn to play this game.  Tim 12:37Yeah, for sure. Okay, so let's get a little bit into, there's two things that I want to know when I'm trying to decide what order to hit them in. I want to understand why this speaks to you. And when you were going out for funding, what was the personal skin you had in the game? Right? Why was this particular venture so compelling for you to get involved in? And then I want to get into a little bit about the mechanics and what a person can actually learn in poker that they can't learn otherwise. Erin 13:06During my time in banking, during that first year, at the end of the first year, you all get a bonus. The firms done well, your team has done well, you've done well, you get a bonus, and it's a large number, it's usually more than just your salary. And when I received my first bonus, it was a really big number for me, because I was coming from a nonprofit background. And I received it, I shook my boss's hand, and I adored him. I learned so much from him over the last year. And I just said thank you very much. And I walked out of the room. This is at a time when there were paced secrecy rules. So, you were not allowed to share your numbers. Some of that has gone away, a lot of it truly hasn't. But as often happens, you know, it gets late at night and all the new cohort gets together and you share. And in that moment of sharing, I learned that I was paid significantly less than a male colleague to the point that it was 1000's of dollars, not hundreds of dollars. And my response to that was, how did you get that? It was a genuine question. How did you get so much more? And his answer was that he had asked. And for me, it had never crossed my mind. I was supposed to ask for more. And that sounds crazy to me now because now I know how to negotiate and so many people know how to you have to ask in order to receive. But I truly was just in a position of being grateful. I went on with my career, things got better. I'm glad I learned that lesson early on. However, it always stuck with me as why didn't I already know how to ask? Why wasn't comfortable? I didn't have the confidence, the courage, the background, and what was holding me back? And if it's holding me back, it's probably holding back a lot of other people, especially a lot of other women. And so fast forward almost 20 years later, I do a TED Talk and the TED talk is all about equal pay. Because truly from that day of not receiving the bonus I wish I had I got on to the Equal Pay bandwagon. And in that talk, I have five really great solutions for equal pay, none of which are poker because I didn't know about poker yet. But I say if I were to do that same talk today, I would only say the answer is poker. And the reason for that is through learning poker and playing poker, you are honing the skills that you need for negotiation in a really critical way. And you're building confidence and you're building confidence certainly in the game, which then translates to more confidence. All of those things will be done at the poker table. So, it is very personal to me because while I missed out on an opportunity, you know, early in my career, I don't want other women to miss out on it.  Tim 15:29What are some of the key skills that poker teaches? Could you give us some of the highlights? Erin 15:35Our curriculum has 12 leadership lessons. So, each one of our weekly lessons has one of the skills as the theme. The first lesson is courage, it takes a lot of courage to sit at a poker table. The second one is bold, and the word bold really is slash aggression. So, the word playing aggressively the word aggression in a poker game is a really strong positive. And the reason I say that is and you've played poker Tim, so you understand, is so often at a poker table, nobody has a made hand, you know, so it really is going to come down to the person who's going to play their chips most aggressively, and get the other players to fold, that person's gonna win the hand. That is something you have to practice, shoving your chips all in, when you have imperfect information, you don't know the cards still to come. And you certainly don't know what the other players have. That's a learned skill. Because it's scary. Like the first time I ever did it, I had butterflies and I wasn't even playing for real money, and I still had butterflies. So, lesson number two is being bold and aggressive. And then we go on with risk-taking. With every hand that you play in poker, it's a risk because you don't know the outcome. One of the great things about playing a poker game over and over is you get immediate feedback on your risk-making decisions. There aren't a lot of areas in life where you get that immediate feedback, like that was the right decision, you won the pot, that could have been a better decision had you made some different decisions along the way. We continue with resilience, perseverance. We do teach poker math, it's a really important part of the game. A quick story about poker math is that it used to be lesson three and it was our most skipped lesson during the pandemic. And we couldn't figure out why. We're like, Why is no one showing up for poker math, until of course, a marketing person said, Well, you're calling it poker math. Tim 17:16Poker math. You said the “M” word. Erin 17:18So, we moved it to Lesson Seven, because I know once you've already taken six lessons, you're probably gonna come back for lesson seven. And we now call it calculating. It's really about the calculations and the equity and the probability of the game that we want to teach. Tim 17:34The thing that really resonates with me is this idea of aggressiveness and boldness. And, you know, when we think about… I think I can't remember what the number was. But when when we have a reaction to men, or women being aggressive in the same situation, 76% of the time, women will be seen as too aggressive. When they're right at the same level, when only 26% of men will be accused of being too aggressive. And there's all sorts of labels. And there's all sorts of mechanisms in place, cultural mechanisms, and whatnot, that really work against women in the boardroom, where they're written off, or they're talked about as being too emotional, or they're talking about, you know, all sorts of manner of degrading assumptions can be made. You know what I mean? This is very common. I've seen this happen firsthand, where women are made to feel not enough in the situation when they push their chips all in. So, focusing on that for a minute, when we think about the kinds of lessons that you teach in that first or second segment, what would be one of the key messages that you draw out of that? Erin 18:49You know, it's actually fascinating to watch a total novice play this game, in the early days, because typically, in the beginning, there is a lot of hesitation to push the chips all in to shove. And the reason is, even though there is no monetary value, is that a woman will say during the game, that's so many of my chips, can I just hold back a few of them?  Tim 19:13Ah, scarcity mentality?  Erin 19:14Yes, and I have now played poker with a lot of men, and I have never, ever seen a man say, can I hold back a few of my chips? And I think it's that pattern of behavior that we are trying to change. And so if I can get you to practice, it's a physically doing the move. It's physically feeling what this feels like to have something at risk. And it's also getting that, you know, did you win the chips, or did you not win the chips? It's often good that you don't win the chips and you lose, because then we pause, and we talk through what happened. And so there's this learning element to decision-making that is so critical to making better decisions. And so one of the things that you will see with professional poker players is they write down their hand histories so they're, you know, if they're on their phone, they might be surfing but they're probably write down their hand histories, so they can go back and study points in the game where they made a misstep. It's a very analytical game from the sense of you can improve game after game, day after day, week after week. And you can see that improvement. Yeah, I've now been playing almost four years, and I play a lot of poker now both do in our app, and I also play in Vegas. And I know I have better. Am I great at this game? Absolutely not. But has it given me a new framework and a new method of problem-solving, and thinking through situations where there's a number of different outcomes that could occur? Absolutely. It's changed my perspective. Tim 20:34It's funny to talk about hand history because often one of the coaching techniques that I'll use is to have people even write down and observe, what are they feeling in the moment. How are they playing this situation with a staff member, or with a boss, or with a partner, or a customer? At one point, you have to be there, you have to be present, you have to be authentic, you have to be building trust, but at the same time, you have to be fluent in how do I typically react in this situation? And what is that like? And is this, am I feeling the pressure or the tension with a belief of what I'm capable of or not capable of? And is that pulling me towards a certain behavior? And can I resolve that tension? So, I can act in the manner that's needed in the moment? And you know, hearing you speak about poker and I remember, I believe it was when we were in Inventures, or maybe it was your presentation. But it was the notion of, yes, I feel this way. Yes, I feel nervous or whatnot. But now I can shelve that. And I can make the right move. And I can essentially, observe my own behavior and get out of my own head and say, What is the situation require? And how am I going to behave in this situation? Right, so that it can become somewhat, not careless, but in fact, very, very intentional. And it's like I'm about to make this move. And it may not be comfortable. And that's not the issue, the issue is, what's the right thing to do in the moment?  Erin 22:06Right, and it's the repetition because one of the great things about poker is it's a very fast-moving game. And so yes, you lose a hand, you give up some of your chips, but the cards are already getting redelt for the next hand. And it is because of that practice, you get to do, you know, in an hour playing poker, you can play 10, 15, 20 different hands. And so you're getting to make a number of decisions, with all these different inputs that are always evolving, you know, as the cards come out in the center of the board on the other table, your decision-making is going to change based off of new information, and based off of what you're observing from the other players. So, it's a very dynamic game from that standpoint. And you have to keep rethinking, what do I do next? You know, how big is my chip stack? How big is your chip stack? What are the patterns that I've observed with you over the last half hour and what do I think you're going to do next? And all of those characteristics make it such a fascinating game, to practice because it is the boardroom, it is the interview room, often it is the classroom. And so if you can get better in a simulated scenario, you're going to be able to translate the gameplay from the table to the gameplay in your real life. Tim 23:14Yes, and I think and you'll be able to carry that metaphor back into your real life. Whereas when you're learning it in that metaphoric sense, in this arena that's taken away from the regular work world, you're able to approach things with a lot less fear. And I think what's important here for people to realize, too, is that it's not just an app, yes, you're training people on the app, but you're also running live events. And you're working with corporations, and you're working with higher education institutions. And you're able to bring this into a very real situation where you have colleagues playing together, and they're able to pull out of that. And if I go back to that D&D thing, we have a program called Budgets and Boardrooms, which is based on it's a D&D module that we play in a business sense, and it's pretty–Erin 24:00Oh, I love this. Tim 24:01Oh, yeah, it's a lot of fun. But, you know, when we think about these opportunities that leaders have to build teams, or to impart skills, or to really challenge limiting beliefs, you know, Poker Power gives us an example of that, in that there are some characteristics that leaders should be looking for, and you've spoken to a lot of them already, where they're able to be in this sandbox. They're able to experience the consequences of their decisions very quickly, far more quickly than you would get in normal life. So, that they can practice, and they can see themselves, and they can have this iterative type of development experience. And those are very important. What would be some of the other things that just generally you think that a good off-site or development session has, naturally I appreciate that Poker Power would be demonstrating that but on a wider contextual basis, what should leaders be looking for?  Erin 25:00Stay with poker for just a moment, but then I will go from there is the poker table of being a meritocracy. And I think that is a critical factor when you gather people together of all different levels. And the reason it's meritocracy is if no one really knows how to play this game, then it doesn't matter where you went to school, doesn't matter what your title is, doesn't matter how big, or strong, or tall you are, all of those things typically designate winners in our culture, in our businesses. And all of that goes away. Because at the poker table, the only thing that matters is how you play your cards. And that's all up here, that is inside your head. And for women in particular, it levels the playing field immediately. And in fact, one of the best things about poker is you actually don't ever have to speak. And the reason I highlight that is so often in a boardroom setting, in a meeting setting, a woman will contribute an idea or plan, and she will be overtalked, or the idea will be taken and put into the mouth of someone else. And this is a real pet peeve of mine and something that I care a lot about women being able to reclaim their words and their ideas. So, they do own them. That happens at a poker table because you don't have to speak all of your decisions, all the way that you show value is through how you maneuver your chips. And it's like a light bulb, you know. And so I like to take the scenarios that happen within a poker game, and then translate them to the real-world scenarios that you know, all of us are experiencing in our business lives. I think another thing that is really important, is enabling women to feel that they can take a risk. And it is, okay, if it fails. You know, so often like you think about when women apply for jobs or promotions, will only do it if we literally tick every single requirement that's been put into the job description, and then men only need five or six, if that and they're going to apply. So, women are more hesitant in many scenarios to take that risk. When you are playing poker, unless you literally plan to fold every single one of your hands at some point, you're gonna have to put chips into that pot. And that's a risk. And so I want you to know that even if you lose the hand, there's a lesson and a learning that's going to come to that, that as you start to piece together these different learnings from the poker table, they're going to start to make sense and how you interact and behave within a business setting. Tim 27:21That I think is such a great takeaway from this in the sense of, you know, it is two things there. One is what do we do in the face of risk? And are we able to translate that risk into opportunity? Is it the risk itself that creates the differentiator that allows one person to move forward or not? And how we handled I think that's a great part. The other thing is, and I know this as a coach, and learning and development specialist that facilitates a lot of these team sessions. Primarily, the tools we give people are verbal in nature. And so, you know, you've really got me thinking what a bias that immediately imposes that we talk our way out of situations, or we do these kinds of things. Whereas the physical, and the ability to let you know, even for myself when I'm say facilitating a strategic session, or if it's a conflict resolution or something, silence is such an important skill for me. There was a great book back in the day that was for facilitators called, Don't Just Say Something, Stand There. And it was like, just let the room breathe and see what they're going to do. And that silence is a very real power. And sometimes the person who speaks first truly does lose, wow, that's not entirely true. But it's like, you know what I mean that you need to you need to use it, and you need to use your physical presence as well. Erin 28:47There are certain moves in poker, in the actual gameplay that we talk a lot about, just as you have said. So, the move that you just described that pause, and call it the power of the pause, that's the check move. So, when you're playing a hand of poker, it's your turn, and you're the first to act. And so you have a decision to make, you can put chips into the pot, you can raise the amount of chips in the pot, or you can literally tap on the table or verbally say the word check. And what that does, is it gives you that breathing space so that the gameplay moves to the person who is to your left, and they will then make their decision. If they decide to put chips in, it's going to come back around to you. But in that moment of checking, you're saying, I'm just going to observe what's going on here. I'm going to step back for, it could be seconds, it could be you know, 30 seconds, and really think through my next move here. That's huge. That's huge that you can play a game where you get to actually control the tempo of the game and how you play your moves. Because that's what you want to do in a negotiation. You don't always want to be the first to speak, you want to state you know what you want. You want to give the breathing space for someone to respond to you. Tim 29:50You don't want to set an anchor. Erin 29:52Yeah, you've gotten them to speak first and then you can take that moment of pause and I think so often we are, and partly, it's just, you know, having spent so much of our time now in a virtual world and we have so many digital inputs that come to us, is we feel this need to respond immediately, to a slack, to an email, to that text message. And in fact, I use the power of the pause, that check move in just my day-to-day interactions with my team, with other people within the firm. Like, I actually don't have to answer this right now, I can pause and I can think through what I want to say, that's empowering to know that you can do that. Yeah, and then I think the other move that's so important that follows that that check is the power to raise. So, to really put a lot of value into a poker game, and say that you're dominant, to tell the story because so much of poker is telling a narrative of strength or weakness. And so you put a lot of chips into the pot, and you are telling everybody else that you'd like your hand. Now, you might be bluffing. And bluffing is a really important skill in poker. Or you might actually have, you know, those two kings are those two aces and a really strong hand. But you're able to decide how you're going to maneuver and push around other people at the table. And I always say that when women get a big chip stack, so they have a lot of chips in front of them more than anyone else at the table. We always say you're now you're the bully. And that's a real like, you will see women actually sort of recoil at that word or like pause, like, why are you calling me the bully. And I'm saying in a really positive way, you're the bully at this table because you have the most value in front of you. And you can push other people around. And so infrequently do we get into those positions of power that we can make in the workplace, doing it at the poker table is incredibly enlightening. And it also helps you understand being on the other side of that when you don't have the big chip stack and you're being bullied around, what does that feel like? Tim 31:42We're talking about bullies, and we're talking about the ability to force people's hands or anything along those lines. Poker is naturally an adversarial game. And so I mean, it is really us against the table. But I think it's important for the listeners to realize that even though we're testing it, we're testing ourselves in that form. It doesn't preclude us from being collaborative, it doesn't preclude us from coming together and accomplishing something. However, when it comes to getting your thoughts across, or being as influential as you need, or having that confidence, or being able to articulate and represent an idea, without softening or stepping back on important issues, and the rest of it, that's when these skills come in. So, they're not absent in a collaborative sense. I mean, obviously, we're not going to bring a bully methodology into a team environment. But they do exist. And it's not about always seeking a win-lose. It's about making sure that you advocate for yourself and advocate for your ideas. And, you know, sport teaches us so many good things about this, but not everybody has had the experience of having to be in an aggressive competitive environment, be it sport, or dance or gymnastics, or Taekwondo or whatever they're doing. Fencing, you know? Erin 33:01Yeah, no, so many young women drop out of sports once they hit high school, you know, 13-14 years old, and they and they stop. And one of the surprising things that has happened in our games is that, yes, it's a zero-sum game, just as you describe, one person is going to win the pot, everyone else is going to lose, and you don't want to play again. But in that moment of someone winning, what is happening at the table is very fascinating to me, because the person who wins is, she feels like a rock star, like literally feels like a rock star. And she's often you know, taking pictures and selfies of herself, scooping those chips in. But the other thing that's happening at the table is those eight or nine other women that she's seated with, they're celebrating her, and that I do think is a very uniquely female characteristic is you just took all my chips, but I am so incredibly proud of you, I am so happy for you. And the reason this is so important at our poker table is our tables feel good. So, even if you lose all your tips, you're doing it in a setting that feels very collaborative, very supportive. And one that you want to be back in again, like women tend to like those types of environments, we're willing to play the game. But we also want to make sure that we're all feeling really positive about the game. And I think that then lends itself to the poker table being a place where networks are formed, relationships are built, deals get made, we know that's what happens, you know, at or at real poker tables. And we want to give women those same spaces and environments to experience them. Tim 34:28It's got me thinking back to, you know, when you see these caricatures of people, when you watch professional poker on TV, oh, and by the way, I mean, there's a reason it's on a sporting network and not on something else, right, because it really does have this competitive edge that you don't find in a lot of cerebral games. You know, but you see these caricatures and these archetypes of like the Phil Hellmuth where he's just, you know, the biggest whiner when he's losing and so arrogant when he's not versus other players that come to the table. And at least they're controlling it that way. But they want to have fun. And they're trying to encourage, you know, they're wanting to make it jovial. And notice the others that sit there and say absolutely nothing. What a way to be able to explore who we are, and really test ourselves and become fluent in how we're going to approach certain situations and gain some awareness and face up to some potentially challenging facts about ourselves, and maybe how we were raised or what beliefs and identities we hold. And we have accessible to us so that we can fill our toolbox with other options. So, I mean, this is really exciting stuff. Erin, I hope we get another chance to talk and see how this goes. I think it's absolutely fascinating. And I can't wait to hear a little bit more. But in the meantime, let me ask you a couple of questions. When it comes to Poker Power or your life in general, what's the most exciting thing that's happening for you right now? What do you have going on? Erin 36:03Well, I'm in a state of transition personally, in just that my children are grown, life is going to probably take me in a different direction. Certainly where I live is changing. I actually live in North Idaho of all places. And so I think, you know, there's a personal transition that will happen in my life, and I'm really excited about that. I love change, I thrive on change, so it doesn't scare me. And when people say, Well, what's next, I'm like, I don't know, it's gonna get figured out, you know, the cards aren't all dealt yet. So, we'll just wait and see. I think for Poker Power, we're also in a state of transition, you know, we've been a startup, successful startups are very good at trying a lot of experiments or pilots, things that you fail at, you know, that's what makes a really good start, because you've failed a lot. And you've learned from it. And you've been able to pivot and really focus on what is working for the business. We're at that stage now. So, our corporate program is fantastic. You know, we have inbounds from corporates all over the globe. And we work in 40 countries virtually. And so we feel that's a really strong part of the program. What's coming next, though, is I need that teenager, and I need that young woman who's in college, because if we can get her to start to think and strategize and negotiate like a winning poker player today, you know, when she's 20 years old, not 40 years old, she is going to enter the workforce on a more level playing field, at our origin, at our most important mission at Northstar, that's what we're trying to do is get the skills and strategies into the hands of young women as early as we can, because we really do think it's going to have a generational impact on leadership and success. And then I think, what's next, I'm hoping to get to the beach in a couple of weeks. You know, it's been a long year. So, I'm not heading back to Canada, as much as I like to ski and as much as I love Calgary. I'm heading to the beach, here in a few weeks.  Tim 37:53That's great. If people want to get in touch with you, where can they reach out?  Erin 37:56Yeah, so pokerpower.com is our website, you can access our app there. And you can also get it from any of the app stores. It's called Poker Power Play. And that's how you can start your poker journey with us, you can also register for virtual lessons that we offer every week, you can do that on the website. And if you just want to reach out to me personally, please do so on LinkedIn, I'd be happy to DM with you and learn more about, you know, any of the interests that you may have.  Tim 38:20We'll put all of those links down in the show notes. Last question here. If you were to have a wish, for one of the leaders listening today, what would it be? Erin 38:31I would say to say yes, more than no. And the reason I say that is for about 25 years that has really been my life motto is that I say yes to everything. And that gets me in trouble, absolutely. I get myself into situations that I don't know how to solve, necessarily. But I figured them out, you know, with a lot of effort. And you know, a lot of us sort of self-awareness, I figure things out. I think leaders have to fail too, they have to say those yes's, and then they have to have mistakes that are made and lessons that are learned you can't ever stop, you know, those experimentations and taking the risk. And I love being around people who say yes, instead of no, in all parts of my life, I find that very energizing. Tim 39:11You can't lead from the room that you've closed the door on yourself. Right? But you can certainly lead when you've said yes and you're on the other side of the door and then we'll take it as it comes. Right? But anyway, Erin, this has been absolutely fascinating. I am just tickled that you and I had a chance to talk again, and I can't wait for the next opportunity. So, thank you so much. Erin 39:32All right. Great to see you, stay warm up there. Tim 39:35Will do. Okay, see you soon. Tim 39:38Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rate rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

The devotion for today, Monday, January 01, 2024 was written by Jonathon McClellan and is narrated by Larry Carter. Today's Words of Inspiration come from 2 Corinthians 4.18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. Support the show

In this episode, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with fellow Oxford alumni, Rachael Patel, to discuss integrated project delivery (IPD). With a background as a registered nurse, Rachael brings her unique expertise to her current role in the health sector specializing in strategic planning and execution of health services, research and infrastructure projects in North America. The pair discuss the impediments and challenges of adoption of the IPD model, specifically how it relates to private and public healthcare major infrastructure projects and the procurement process.“You add an integrated project delivery, where the idea is risk sharing and then you use that same methodology to calculate value for money, IPD will never win because IPDs base core base is sharing risk. It's two issues in our procurement, it's the idea of what value for money is and how we calculate money.”– Rachael Patel Key Takeaways: The origin of IPD and how its optimizing project design and construction Why value for money is problematic for IPDFinding a better way to allocate risk, relational over transactional  The policy associated in procurement and how it is hindering the marketplace shift to alternative models Links Mentioned: A critical perspective on Integrated Project Delivery (IPD) applied in a Norwegian public hospital projectBenefits and challenges to applying IPD: experiences from a Norwegian mega-project If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Navigating Major Programmes PodcastRiccardo CosentinoRachael Patel Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino  00:00If you're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of major programme management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford Universities they business group, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as a press the industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.  Racheal Patel is an Associate Vice President and senior project manager at a global architecture and engineering firm. She's a registered nurse, and also the Master of Science in major program management from the University of Oxford, and a Master of nursing from the University of Toronto. Racheal is a skilled leader in the health sector specializing in strategic planning and execution of health services, research and infrastructure projects in Canada and the United States. Her expertise includes guiding organization for the initial strategic planning phase, through detailed planning and design to the implementation of transformative and innovative capital projects. Hello, everyone.  Welcome to another episode of navigating major programs. I'm here today with Richard Patel. I met Racheal at Oxford University when we were completing together our mastering major program management. And I asked Racheal today to join us on the podcast to discuss her dissertation, which is quite interesting and very relevant to the topics that we've been discussing on navigating major programs. How're you doing, Racheal? Racheal Patel  02:00I'm good Ricardo. And thanks for having me here. I'm excited to have a platform to talk about my dissertation and you providing that platform to talk about major programs. So thank you very much for having me.   Riccardo Cosentino  02:14It's my pleasure. So maybe since I've tucked up your dissertation a little bit, well, what was the topic of your dissertation?  Yeah, so my topic was actually looking at the challenges of adopting integrated project delivery in health infrastructure here specifically in Ontario. And I kind of was interested in this because here in Ontario, as you know, we've been in a transactional type of model for some time, and I wanted to see could we push the boundary and look at other project delivery models that would achieve the the goals of infrastructure for healthcare in a different manner? Interesting. And you talk about transactional contracting, and you talk about IPD, can you maybe explain for some of our listeners the difference or what was in the context of your, your research, what those terms mean? Racheal Patel  03:20So when we when I say transactional, it's more of a contractual obligation. So it's what we see today, like a p3, you know, alternative delivery model where you have a relationship based on some terms and conditions. Relational, it's a similar idea in that more, they're not similar, but it's a similar idea, in that it's a relationship based model where you're working together as a team, there's no one, you know, a buyer and a seller you are, I guess, in a way, a group or collaborative, all working towards the same goal and you have incentives and so forth, in a nutshell, that it's different. We in transactional, as you know, you have contractual requirements, you're obligated to meet certain things, whereas in relational, it's really about the relationships and the collaboration and the people and people organizations that come together to deliver. So it's, it's harder, sorry, relational is more softer compared to transactional in my non legal way of trying to explain. Riccardo Cosentino  04:41So another way of putting that is an is one that of an example that I use in the past is that transactional contracting or is more of a zero sum game where there is a party, a winning party in the losing party. We're in relational contracting. We're all on the same table, we all have one common goal, one common incentive. And all of the incentives are aligned providing a more collaborative environment.   Racheal Patel  05:11Yeah, yeah, that's probably more eloquent and articulate in the way I'm trying to explain it. That yeah, like, with relational, and specifically with IPD, you have everyone coming together with a common goal objective, and you're all measured on that same group of objectives or metrics metrics. And I would say transactional is a very much risk transfer moving risk to one party to hold that and your obligation to meet those risks, that transfer of that risk. But yes, I would say what you what you said is more eloquent than how I'm trying to explain it. Riccardo Cosentino  05:54No, yours is more is more detailed and more accurate by this very broad strokes. But maybe maybe for again, for our listeners, I know, in your research, you know, part of your literature review you you actually had a bit of a dive into IPD, which means integrated project delivery. And I actually cover some of that in my dissertation. So in a previous podcast, where I talked about IPD, Alliance and collaborative contracting, maybe just for those listeners that didn't listen to that podcast. Can you talk a little bit about the origin of IPD?  Yeah, no problem. So IPD, which is integrated project delivery is the definition. It's kind of vetted by the American Institute of Architects, or specifically the California Council that came up with this notion of IPD. Being that it's a project delivery model that integrates people, businesses, and legal structures into a process that drives collaboration, while it optimizes efficiencies in the design and the construction phases of a project. So what that really means is that your you know, you're kind of like a temporary project organization, or a temporary organization all set to one vision, a shared vision, purpose, and a goal. And you're all working together, in, in what we work in organizations to achieve that. And each part like, you know, you have a joint management decision making where you come together. It's not one party oversight on one, you have key party members within your organization that sit together make decisions, for the best project outcome, you agree on the targets and goals. So what what are we trying to like? What is our project mission values, but what are we trying to achieve with this, you bring everyone to the table. So it's early engagement of parties, like in our current models, or in some of the models, we're all used to, you know, you have owner, you know, their designers are the design team, and then they work together, then you bring in somebody else later in the game, whereas in this one, everyone's sitting at the table on day one, working together to achieve the vision. The other thing with integrated project delivery is that you're sharing the risks and rewards. So it's not self interest driven. It's more we work together, and we share the risk of the solutions we put together or the rewards of the solutions like we work together to do that. So it's a pain share gain kind of model, where if we all do it together, and we're successful, we profit in it together. If we made some bad judgments, we all suffer together in a nutshell. And then the other thing that's different than probably an alliance model, is that our life, reduce liability exposure. So there's no blame game, you know, you're waiving claim and liability between each other. I mean, I'm sure there are legal mechanisms that if it's willful, or negligent, like in that way, that it's purposeful, there's repercussions. But basically, what you're trying to do is create an environment that has trust or respect. And in order to do that, you don't have legal mechanisms that will point to someone and say, Well, you did this, now you're a blame because you all are all on the same page or sharing that reward or the risk or making the decisions.  Yeah, that's why I was That's why I was talking about a zero sum game, because I think what you described it, you know, I think the legal recourse creates a situation where there's going to be a winner and a loser in case things go wrong. I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, my my experience is that yeah, a contract. If a project goes well a contrast is on the shelves and nobody looks at it, but is when things start to go wrong, that you take out the contract. Look what the contract says and you pursue your legal remedies. I think what what you did ascribe to the IPD. And to a certain extent, even the Alliance model, or any relational contract allows for that. You know, if the project starts going badly, you don't reach for the contract to start appointing blame, but you actually have to sit at the table and come up with with a solution from the project team, rather than from the contract. Racheal Patel  10:25Yeah, like it's very much in this type of model. It's working together, you know, and in my experience, too, on the other types of contracts, if a project goes well, right, yeah, you're never gonna, you're never going to open it up and blame game. But I think, as the complexities of health infrastructure continues, and I'm talking health infrastructure, like continues to grow, I think we're more heading down the line. And I've seen it going down the line where that contract is open, and that blame game starts. Whereas an IP D, and what I like what I've seen in the industry, and those that have used it, you don't see those levels of escalation, or you don't hear about yourself as an escalation, because everyone that's in this delivery in this project are working together to achieve the same thing. So if, you know if blame is shared, everyone shares I mean, if blame is to be shared, everyone shares that blame. And so that that's the difference in this model, for sure.   Riccardo Cosentino  11:28Okay, so I think I think we've set the scene and we talked about IPD. So hopefully, people listening who are not familiar with a Marvel getting a sense. So like to take you back to your dissertation. And, you know, ask, I'd like to ask you, what were the key findings of your, of your, of your research. Racheal Patel  11:52So my, just to kind of give your listeners a little bit of context. So what I was trying to understand in this in this research is, what are the impediments or the challenges of adoption of this model? And so when I looked at, when I looked at, you know, how, how I would identify them, I interviewed individuals in Ontario, both in the public and the private end of health infrastructure, that are decision makers in the process and have been involved. And, you know, we looked at different categories. So is our market even ready to accept a model? Right? Like, are we are we in Ontario, even willing to say, hey, let's look at different project delivery models? You know, what's the impact of culture and environment? The legal ramifications, financial procurement, because we work through a different procurement body? And is there any impact of our regulatory authorities on how we go through it? And so I think, overarching, like one of the biggest findings, and the resounding is, the individuals that I interviewed, were all were like, We need a different model. So it was a resounding yes. The marketplace is saying we need to look at different ways to deliver these infrastructure projects. Because the complexities, the cost they're increasing. And the current models we have, while they deliver an amount saying that P3 are not good, but they do deliver. But for what we're delivering, it's not the best solution. And from a culture and environment, I think, you know, with integrated project delivery, it's about trust and collaboration. And our environment has a huge impact on trust, how we work together and so forth. So I think, I don't think are the culture we work in or in the environment. Everyone's like, it's going to be difficult to apply this model. And I think from a procurement perspective, one of the biggest, you know, ideas that came out was, you know, our procurement, the way we procure projects, that whole process, not necessarily, the broader procurement of the BPS has to change but we have to look at it in a different way to apply this type of model. I think those were some of the key big findings. Riccardo Cosentino  14:22Okay, so I think in your, your dissertation, you you talk about some of the challenges and some of the findings and I think procurement challenges is the one that I found quite interesting. And you talk about how the how the the process to secure funding for the developing new or new health infrastructure. creates challenges in adopting IPD. And also you look at the the value for money analysis used when procuring new infrastructure now that could be a barrier for the for the deployment of integrated project delivery. And so I'm very curious to draw upon your knowledge of what the MO Ministry of Health process is, and why is it detrimental? Racheal Patel  15:18So, I mean, it comes back to so the Ministry of Health process, if we look at, you know, how hospitals kind of work within our system, the hospitals are within, you know, the Ministry of Health. And it's not that they're regulated by the Ministry of Health, because each hospitals, independent corporations, they have their own board of directors, but they're tied to a lot of the operational funding the capital funding come through the Ministry of Health, so you have to work with them in order to get funding for whether it's a renovation or a new build. And so the capital, the health capital planning process, and I know they've changed it in in the last year, or they've added some different nomenclature of stages. But basically, it's separated into two different stages, in that you have your early planning, that talks about, you know, what is the infrastructure proposal how you're going to address it. And that then is requires approval to proceed further into the actual development of the health infrastructure structure project you want to actually implement. And so there's two different approval process within the government through the Treasury Board that your project has to go through. And then during that those approval processes, set dollar amount, whatever that is, whatever is established for that project, and that includes, you know, transaction fees. And so all the other fees that are held, that number is carried across the process. And that kind of is you're upset value or your total value of the project. But when you look at the process, the duration of this process is so long, and you know, healthcare projects can take 10, to, you know, 13 years to get through this process, where you actually go to a part where you go to RFP and start to bid and build, that there's such an evolution, the way we deliver healthcare, because it's rapidly changing with technology operations, and so forth, and different models of care, that what you first envisioned in your project, maybe you're one and where you ended up, when you're about to go to bed could change, but that number doesn't change. And so it's not agile enough to respond to the market. Riccardo Cosentino  17:36I guess another challenge is that when you know, because of the planning process, you develop a design and a solution. And you develop it to probably award 5% design completion. And so you lock in in certain certain things with your, with your master planning, you block schematic as you go through the approval process. And obviously, you wouldn't be able to have an IPD contractor on board, that early on to start that collaboration is that one of the findings, one of the challenges, Racheal Patel  18:11it is a challenge, but I think if you look at the way the US where IPDS is predominantly used for healthcare, you can have your business case written and your idea written, but then you know, when you get into blocks, or schematics, you engage that contractor into the process, right. And then together with the designer, the owner, the and the contractor in some of their sub trades, you start to build or design and plan for that future facility. So in the US, they do do that. Here in Ontario, we have a very process driven stream that contractors are not engaged and their value is not added until they get the bid documents. And so could the contractor come in earlier in the process? I believe it could. But that means you're procuring certain things earlier in order to have those conversations at the table. And they would have to be integrated into this. I don't see it being a barrier. I think it's a shift in mindset and how we approach it. And if this is the what we have to do with the ministry's process and Treasury board's approval for release of funding, then I think we have to look at, you know, when does a contract or when does the sub trades When did those key individuals get involved? Riccardo Cosentino  19:33Well, yeah, because what we have is a very linear process, you know, you have all these stages and you know, you can only is a Stage Gate approach. Well, I think without with IBD, you want a more fluid, more fluid approach that creates collaboration and interaction as early as possible because that's where that's where the value is created. And that's where optimization has appearance is it's at the early stages of the project. Racheal Patel  20:02Right. And it's also where the innovation happens, right? Like with the optimization, but it's innovation and maybe how we address mechanical I mean, you look at healthcare, mechanical, maybe 45, to, if not 50, but close to 50% of the value of our healthcare project is the engineering systems that run, not a name, excluding the equipment that you know, that it's put into the organization. But when you have such a heavy value of your costs sitting, like and you don't have those players that are going to build it at the table, it's a huge detriment, right. And we ended up having issues going down. And I think that's the benefit of this process of IPD. Everyone comes to the table early in design, so you can work out those solutions and the problems, say, you know, what's the best approach for, you know, air handling? What's the best approach for, you know, feature flexibility of data and so forth? I mean, I'm not an engineering to talk technical, but, you know, I've worked in situations where you have everyone at the table, and you can create something more efficient in its operation, but also in the price. Riccardo Cosentino  21:11Yes. Yeah. You know, enough to be dangerous. That's the mean. So, touched upon value for money. So let's, let's jump on to that. Because I think that's the other that, you know, and I worked for infrastructure, Ontario, and I know the value for money methodology. But, again, I think in your findings, you describe it beautifully. Why is problematic, so I won't steal your thunder. I leave, I leave you to explain why the VFM methodology is problematic. Racheal Patel  21:52Yeah, so So you, I get in trouble and not you. Alright. So I do believe that the value for money calculation that we use in Ontario is problematic, because the way we calculate value for money is that, and, again, I've listened and not at Infrastructure Ontario. So I can't say that with certainty. But my understanding of it is that when so let me take a step back when the idea of I think it's the idea of value for money first is problematic. When we think of value for money, we think of lowest price in Ontario. But when you look at what really value for money, it's the best, it's the best solution based on financial and non financial objectives. That's what value for money is value for money is not finding the cheapest bid. And I think, in Ontario, and I'm not just talking p3, but in Ontario, whether it's through supply chain procurement, so if we always look for this lowest price, because we believe that that is value for money, that itself is problematic for IPD. Because in IPD, its value for money is based on a number of other things, right? Value for money is on the team, it's on. It's not on a fixed price, it's how the team works together, right? Like, that's, you know, when you procure IPD, you're not procuring a fixed price, what you're procuring is the team that comes to the table that will work with you to develop the solution for what you're coming together for, you know, their qualifications, their experience, how they work together, their behaviors, that is what you're evaluating how you choose a team. It's not like, here's my lowest bid. And so I think that's one of the biggest challenges in Ontario is that we had this idea of low bid is the right solution. And then sorry, go   Riccardo Cosentino  21:52yeah, I was gonna I was gonna, you seem reluctant to come to the punch line. So I was gonna I was for you, in case you're too scared. Racheal Patel  24:00Scared, so but I just wanted to say, you know, like, so when you get to value for money calculation, and the way we do it is that it's about transferring the risk, right? So when you look at the value for money calculation, and how, you know, how one thing is, like one procurement model, p3 is better. It's because they're seeing the risk allocation, the transfers of the risk to the private sector is value for money for the public sector, because they're not burdened by that risk. And so that's kind of the premise. And I don't think that's correct, because you're measuring, you know, p3, the risk transference and against a traditional model where there isn't a risk transfer. So that's kind of the issue with the value for money calculation. Now you add an integrated project delivery, where the idea is risk sharing, and then you use that same methodology to calculate value for money IPD will never win because it's IPDs base core base is sharing risk. Because, you know, the definition is if you share a risk, you share solutions, right? Like you're working together to problem solve, as opposed to transferring that problem to somebody else doesn't get to the punch. Thank you. I'm not afraid to say it. But I just wanted to kind of, you know, I think it's two issues in our procurement, it's the idea of what value for money is and how we calculate money.   Riccardo Cosentino  25:26Okay, so I think I think that paints a pretty good picture of what what are the, in my mind, I mean, I'm your research talks about other challenges. And I think there's there's most the softer type challenges, which is, you know, resources, availability of resources, and culture and environment, which you talked at the beginning, but I'm a commercial person. So I always gravitate toward the heard liabilities and the heard numbers. So not that's not the sort of stuff but you know, the soft stuff is important. And yeah, I agree with you, I mean, value for money as to be and it to be to give credit to Infrastructure Ontario for for new projects. Now, on the civil side, they are starting to use more collaborative model, the studying to assess cognitive they do cognitive behavioral assessments for all the people that work on those project, because at the end of the day, there needs to be a culture of fit of everybody's at the table, because otherwise, you're not going to achieve the collaboration that you need. Racheal Patel  26:29100%. And, you know, I, I've spoken to people at Metrolinx, as well about the different ways they're trying to approach project delivery, civil projects are so complex, I would say probably even more so than a hospital delivery. You know, I think the hospital itself is a complex, but what Civil Works does, that's even more complex, but they're willing to try different models. And so if our partners here at Metrolinx, or other organizations are looking at different models, why can't we apply that? That's kind of also why I'm driving this idea. Like, let's look outside the box of what we've traditionally done here, Ontario. Riccardo Cosentino  27:06Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Okay. So jumping on, I wanted to maybe ask you more of a broader question, which, if you have actually had the chance to look at some case studies when you were doing your research, and if there's anything that that jumped out, you might you might have not actually looked at case study, because I know your literature literature review was a bit broader than that. But any, any anything that jumped out and key successes that jumped out,   Racheal Patel  27:34you know, IPD, in general, is permanently used in the US, but I think other countries are looking at it. So when I was doing this study, specifically, I was trying to find public hospitals or public systems that have applied integrated project delivery. The one organization I found was an I'm going to pronounce this wrong, because there is a lot over one of the letters, but it's in Norway, is the Songa project. And so the Norwegian government decided they've had enough with cost overruns, scheduled delays, adversarial relationships. And they actually implemented integrated project delivery in the redevelopment of hospitals, specifically one in this specific region and can't remember the name, but I can get you the reference or anybody that wants to know it after. And so they applied integrated project delivery, because they wanted more of a collaboration and a different approach to public infrastructure, it's probably the closest thing that you would see to a true definition of integrated project delivery, with the exception is that there is no multi party contract. So in integrated project delivery, all the individuals are under a multi party contracts, you all signed together. And so in this public project, that was the only key characteristics of a true IPD. That wasn't in there. But all of the risk sharing the reduced liability, not waiver of liability was there, you know, the the key concepts were there, with the exception of the multi party agreement. So that was probably the only one. There's still in the middle of the build stages. And if you do look it up. It's multi phase project. It's very complex redevelopment in this system. But they've just started issuing case studies or publishing case studies are starting to talk to the public or the global public about this specific example. And it's successful because they have delivered and they've achieved what they've wanted to they've had innovations through the process. But it's the first example of public system using integrated project delivery for health infrastructure. Riccardo Cosentino  29:43Interesting. Okay, I'll try. I'll try to get the details. We'll put in the shownotes. Search it up. Okay, so I guess, as maybe as a final question, probably quite a challenging question but are going to have Is there any way? What will be your recommendation to Ontario policymakers? entities like MOH, or Infrastructure Ontario? To what what would they have to do to embrace IPD for future projects? How can they navigate these challenges? Effectively?   does. I think, I think if I can paraphrase. I mean, there's a there's a need for a shift for a fundamental shift in the policy, because as you describe the fact that hospitals are risk averse, and they can't really absorb too much or cost overruns, or, you know, as lower risk. But that's a funding issue. Right? That's a policy issue there. I mean, at the end of the day, hospital are a creature of the Ministry of Health, right. So ultimately, the governance could allow could be put in place to allow a hospital to to have a different approach a different commercial approach. So it is it is within the gift of the policymaker and the politicians. Racheal Patel  33:45Yeah. And 100%. And I think, you know, when you're paraphrasing it better than I wrote it, I think, but I'm trying to put, you know, 60 pages into small answer. But if you look at you know, just even the allocation of how hospitals have funding for resources to do infrastructure. In the study, a lot of individuals brought up that thing that goes, there's not even enough money to do the current projects that we have with the lack of funding, you know, because they get a certain percentage of ancillary funding in order to pay their staff. But in this situation, when we do IPD, you're going to have a plethora of individuals and experts and stuff that have to sit in the hospital organization to do this. And a hospital isn't an infrastructure professional, right? They bring in the resources to do what they need to but they're they're there to deliver service and care to their community. And so they need to bring all these specialists in but if our if our ancillary costs are how until your cost is given and or funding is given to the hospitals to have the resources doesn't meet the need of these comp, this type of project delivery, you're never going to be able to add execute it. Right now, it supports more of the transactional. So yeah, to your point that also has to be done from a ministry level saying we need to look at how money is given the allocation of funding for these types. Riccardo Cosentino  35:15Okay, so I mean, if I gonna, I'm going to try to summarize I mean, I think my three takeaways is having the there needs to be a change in changing culture, and environment. In order to bring a different type of behaviors to the table, there needs to be a change in the way that risk is allocated, or better, we need to find a better way to share risk. We need to we will need to change some of the policies associated with procurement and project development. And if all this was to happen, then potentially we could have a rich IPD market in Ontario.  Yeah, I think you separated and I think maybe IPD, just in its and probably negate everything I just said about why I'm passionate about IPD. But I, I, I think this would be true for any relational type of contracting like Alliance, Alliance, as well as IPD. They have similarities as we talked about earlier. But what you've summarize are critical for our marketplace to allow for different models. And I think that's kind of the crux of the issue is that we have a marketplace that's set up for one specific type of delivery model. And if we need to look outside the box, we need to look at these issues. Okay, now, you said it better than me, well, Racheal Patel  36:44play off of you. Riccardo Cosentino  36:47Okay, I think I think that's all we have time for today. Thank you very much for joining me today. Racheal. This was a fascinating conversation about our own province, our own in our own country. So thank you for joining me and all the best for your future endeavors. Racheal Patel  37:02Thanks, Riccardo and thank you for the platform to talk about this right now. Riccardo Cosentino  37:08That's it for this episode on navigating major problems. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to Navigating Major Programmes and I look forward to keeping the conversation going  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this powerful episode, Tim talks with Debbie Potts of DAP VA Limited about her inspiring story of resilience. Debbie describes how she kept her dreams alive by keeping her anchor or north star in view at all times, even while adapting to remote work during the pandemic, battling ovarian cancer (twice!), and navigating the chaos of moving to a new country. Her tenacity, vulnerability, and never-ending positivity will both inspire and motivate any listener who needs encouragement to pursue their dreams without letting obstacles get in the way or define them. Debbie's story shows listeners how powerful you can be when you advocate for yourself, discover your goals, and trust your instincts. Tim shares the main lessons he's learned from working directly with Debbie and following her achievements, including how to keep your vision clear, break down impossible tasks into manageable pieces, and keep your momentum going against the odds. You'll learn about the importance of positivity and a little bit of Swedish coffee culture along the way. About Debbie Potts | Founder of DAP VA LimitedDebbie Potts is the entrepreneurial force behind DAP VA Limited, where she stands as an Online Business Manager and Executive Virtual Assistant. With a rich tapestry of experiences spanning over three decades in the corporate legal sector and educational management, Debbie's multifaceted expertise is matched only by her grounded, go-the-extra-mile ethos and her passion for the Swedish concept of 'fika'—taking a break to savour coffee and company.Debbie's philosophy centers around the notion that exceptional business support should be within reach for every entrepreneur and business owner. She extends this support across the globe, offering services that include website redesign, social media enhancement with a particular knack for leveraging Pinterest for Business, and comprehensive executive assistance—all tailored to help her clients reclaim precious time.Beyond her professional endeavours, Debbie dedicates her energy to advocating for two cancer charities. As a survivor herself, she generously shares her journey to uplift others and advance the mission of these organizations, which provide crucial support to those touched by cancer.Resources discussed in this episode:Working Genius - Patrick LencioniVA Mastery Course - Amanda JohnsonMacmillan Cancer SupportDebbie's Story on The Royal Marsden Cancer Charity WebsiteBBC Interview Highlighting Challenges of Cancer Patients During the Cost of Living CrisisIndividualism vs. Teamwork with Rita Ernst Part 1 (Apple)Individualism vs. Teamwork with Rita Ernst Part 2 (Apple)Individualism vs. Teamwork with Rita Ernst Part 1 (Spotify)Individualism vs. Teamwork with Rita Ernst Part 2 (Spotify)--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Debbie Potts | DAP VA: WebsiteLinkedin: DAPVA--Transcipt:Debbie 00:01We need to believe that we are stronger than we think. We are more resilient than we think. And we absolutely can achieve. Yes. It's hard as you said, yes, the trajectory to the dream is tough. And I was pushed down that mountain 1000 times that I got up, I kept going. So it isn't so much about failing, because I did. But it's how do you pick yourself up after failing?Tim 00:31I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, or a leader, and this show is all about an all for you. Welcome to our 20th episode, this is the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 01:04Hey, everybody, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership. Thank you very much for joining me, I am absolutely over the moon to be talking and bringing to you one of the most amazing spirits that I have encountered on this planet. She is somebody that I have a great deal of love for. I never knew when we met how much I would jive with you and how much I would feel an immediate connection with you. And I really just can't wait for everybody else to experience a little bit of Debbie because it's the vitamin D and never knew you needed. And that's coming at you today. So welcome Debbie Potts, to this podcast. And thank you so much for taking the time to join me and sharing your amazing story. Debbie 01:49You're welcome, Tim. And thank you for inviting me. This is amazing. And yeah, I jive with you, too. So it's, it's mutual. And I have a lot of love and respect for you, too. So great. Let's let's do this. Tim 02:04Oh, yeah. So Debbie, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself, let people know what you're all about. And then I've got some really big curiosities as we talk about your journey. And so yeah, please let everybody know who you are. Debbie 02:19Oh, sure. My name is Debbie Potts, as Tim said, and I am the director of a virtual assistant business, which is a business based in the United Kingdom. And registered in the United Kingdom. I serve my clients in all sorts of ways I provide services, to help them run their businesses, I do social media for them, I've fixed their websites, I redo their websites. Basically, I turn my hand to anything. I really plus myself as not only a business owner, but also a survivor and a conqueror of two-time ovarian cancer. So for me, that's kind of my biggest achievement. It doesn't define me, but it is something that has made me who I am today, and I'm so happy to join you. Tim 03:07I appreciate it. And in case you're wondering, dear listener, Debbie helps me all the time, and she's brought an entirely new level of control, and he's around my own business. But that's not why we're here. Today, we're not to talk about the power of an amazing assistant, although that is something we're going to get into. And I don't even think of it as an assistant, I think of a power of an amazing collaborator who rounds off your edges and supplements, your leadership style or your business in ways that you can't even imagine. Okay, that's part of it. But let's talk about the journey I'd love you to, to lead us into the story of The Red House. And I think for all of the leaders that are listening, this is an amazing parable around or amazing example of what happens when you set a vision and you achieve it and how it can have what I see from the outside being a profound effect on a person's trajectory. Notwithstanding Yeah, notwithstanding the the battles that you've been through, and I think that's part of the story. But the metaphor of the red house to me is just so inspiring. So that's what I'm really hoping that we can get into today. So could you give us a little bit of a background in terms of what the red house is, take us up to the lead-up of what was happening where you first had this dream. Debbie 04:36Okay, so basically my dream about living in a red house in the middle of the countryside near the forest and near the sea, started way back decades ago, really, when I first came to Sweden, and we took a trip into the countryside and I saw all these little red houses dotted around everywhere and the colour of these red houses is specific only to Sweden and it's called “Falu Röd” (Falu Red). So I had a dream to live in a follow red house. So there so at the time, Dan and I, my partner were living and working in London. And I thought, How on earth am I going to make this happen? I work in a school, I don't work remotely, I have to go to school every day. I can't, you know, work in London and live in a red house. It's just not going to work. What should I do? It was a lot, a lot of knockbacks. At first, I applied to many positions here in Stockholm thinking, Okay, I'll just change my job. But of course, not speaking the language was a big sort of negative. So every job that I applied for was a “no.” Tim 05:49Just to back us up. When did you have this vision? What year was that?  Debbie 05:54Oh, my gosh, that would have been 2009.  Tim 05:552009? Debbie 06:02Yes. The way I sort of drifted was after my visit to Sweden, I went back home and I printed a picture, any picture Tim of any red house, and I stuck it on the wall above my computer. And obviously, I would look at this, whenever I came to sit at my computer, I would see this. And it would just keep sort of the cogs turning. Okay, so how do I turn that picture into a reality? First, was job so that I could work in the country that I want to live. Second was, while I need money, houses don't fall from trees? Yeah, I've got to have some money. And of course, I'm working with my partner, Dan, on this dream. So you know, we decided to for now do sort of a feasibility study and look at where could we possibly live? Because a dream can only become reality to me when I physically see the possibility rather than think it or see it virtually. Tim 07:08In the late 2000s, you start to think of this. And you when you put these pictures out behind your computer as a bit of a vision board, you're approaching it practically you're not approaching it with a distant dream, you're bringing it close saying, ‘Where could this exist?' The default being Sweden, obviously. Debbie 07:28Absolutely. And I did have that dream aspect as well. I mean, I would go to sleep dreaming about The Red House, I would talk about it at work with my colleagues, I would talk about it with my friends and family. So and that's all I was obsessed by. Everybody kind of knew, ah, what does Debbie want? She wants to live in a red house that's been known for years. Tim 07:49So the red house was this picture, this avatar for something. What did the Red House represent to you?  Debbie 07:56Oh my gosh, it represented freedom, it represented achievements. It represented living life on my terms. And obviously, I love nature, as you do. And it just represented, you know, being able to be close to nature and, you know, completely do a 180 turnaround of my life. You know, I lived in a big city, London, full of people full of traffic full of everything. And I've now completely reversed that. And you know, I've told you about this before in our conversations, there's, you know, this little village I live in, there's 10 plots, but only eight houses. And that's us.  Tim 08:40And eight families that are collectively a community. When you think about that, then the red house was such a clear delineation, was such a clear, step off what you knew. It there was a polar opposite from that perspective. I do remember you sharing with me at one point, the red house was just a representation, and you'd identified all of those outcomes you were looking for. That could have manifested in a bunch of different ways. Right? You could have found nature somewhere else, you could have found peace somewhere else. Debbi 09:12Yea, but it also was my love of Sweden anyway. And because I love the country, and because, you know, so it was a whole mind shift change, because not only did I have the picture of the red house above my computer, but I also enrolled myself in London to have Swedish lessons. So then I could start learning the language. Okay, so sort of ticking off all the things that I needed to do for myself to be able to achieve this dream.  Tim 09:42So you were putting in the small things in place. Debbie 09:45All the little bits and pieces. Yes.  Tim 09:49Okay. So, late 2000. You're coming up with these plans. You've got this vision, you're starting to tick off the small items. What happened then what was the next thing that happened? Debbie 09:59It just became an impossible dream. If I'm honest with you, if I'm genuinely honest. Yeah, prior to the pandemic, it became an impossible dream.  Tim 10:09It was never gonna come close.  Debbie 10:10No, I could not see myself finding a job that would, you know, give me enough money to achieve this dream, nor could I see myself finding a job in Sweden and then achieving the dream. Tim 10:23The clarity around it started to take you farther away from it. The reality starting to pose, you know, real concrete frictions with your current life. Okay, all right, so, so you went through these exercises, then you faced this hero's journey of now the challenge was starting to appear as impassible. Debbie 10:46Absolutely.  Tim 10:47This is pre-pandemic. And pre-battle with ovarian cancer.  Debbie 10:54Pre-battle. I was healthy, Debbie, you know, working living in London enjoying life. And what I decided to do was I thought, okay, I'm not going to give it up totally. Because it's, you know, when you really want something, and you just are not prepared to kind of compromise or give it up. I thought, okay, these battles are here for now. Let me just plod along with my work. And you know, think about how do I overcome this obstacle of living in London, but I really need to be in Sweden? And there's a lot of little things you've got to do. I had to research, how do I get a Swedish visa? How do I you know, legally, all of these other little things? How do I get a bank account? How do I do this? So I thought, let's just do those little things. I started a spreadsheet and, I'm a spreadsheet queen, and honest, I had all the things I needed to achieve with a box, you know, tick off, okay, that done and then notes on the side that tell me, okay, so for a visa, you need to do this da-da-da-da-da. And I just sort of left that slide and kept going. I also subscribed to a property selling website marketing site, and they would just, yeah, I'd just look every morning. That's the first thing I did. I didn't check my work emails, I didn't do anything, I would just spend 15 minutes looking to see what's on the market.  Tim 12:18So, even though part of your conscience was telling you that this is not gonna, let's say the logical part of your brain is fighting you, saying this is not logical use that okay, broke it down to the little tasks, you know, you could action. And I mean, for any of you who've worked with me on Working Genius, which is Patrick Lencioni's new piece. This is very clearly the genius of tenacity, right? It's pulling things into manageable chunks that we then are going to accomplish, Debbie 12:50But also not giving up Tim. Because lots of people give up. And they just say okay, it's not gonna happen and they shelve it. Tim 12:58And where you disaggregated it down to its constituent parts that could start, instead of going for that great big island off in the distance. You swam to this sandbar, and then this sandbar, and then this sandbar, and slowly the island is coming a little closer and a little closer.  Debbie 13:17That's right, yeah. And in English, the saying, you know, I had all my ducks in a row. So I spent nearly five years putting all these little ducks in a row, you know, finding out okay, how, you know, what do I do to get a bank account? Okay, if we lived in this area, how far away is it from the airport? You know, in case I've got to travel back to London or anywhere, for that matter. How do we get broadband or internet connection to a house that's in the middle of the forest? What do I do? Tim 13:46I don't want to get into this too far. Because I think that's fodder for another conversation. But this is so you. I mean, this is what you do for me all the time. When I'm feeling, when I'm feeling overwhelmed. And I've got too many things on the goal. You're like, stop, Break it down. Let's get this into into the easiest thing you can do next, what's just the one easiest step you can take? Which is...  Debbie 14:11Can I just add a little bit more, just so that we can get to the Red House now. Tim 14:16You got it, go for it.   Debbie 14:17So far, all of this happened and I sort of like okay, I'll just do these bits and find out so that I'm totally prepared. If and when they're… not even if, when the time comes. So fast forward to 2020. 2020 Okay, it's 20th of March 2020. The whole of the UK shut down completely. And I was like, oh, now I have to work from home for my school. This is great for me who absolutely loves tech, and absolutely loves working from home. Now my red house popped up front and center because it's, I soon clocked on that, oh my god, if I can work from home for my school, I can work from anywhere. This is it, I got my answer. It's, it's that's it, I got my answer. So in the middle of the pandemic, I decided, okay, I had a conversation with my executive head. And I said to her, Would you be happy? They knew I go to Sweden, you know, six, seven times a year, would you be happy for me to work remotely, from Sweden, for the schools? I supported four schools at the time. Of course, she said, “No, we need you here, Debbie physically.” So that's a no. So I thought, okay, what do I do then to make this remote working dream become reality? Since we're in a pandemic, people have now understood that you can work remotely globally, as you and I do. Yeah. And I decided, what job can I do that will allow me to be able to do this? And I researched, I Googled, I watched so many podcasts, or listened to so many podcasts, watched videos. And finally, yeah, why don't you be a virtual assistant on your own terms? So on the fourth of August 2020, during the pandemic, I started my own business. Tim 16:24You had to step away from your…  Debbie 16:27No, I did it simultaneously, because I needed the income. But I started because I don't know if my business is going to be a success. Of course, I'm going to put everything into it. But I thought, okay, I can do it on a part-time basis. I was lucky enough to have fantastic training, I found this amazing VA Mastery Course, with this lady called Amanda Johnson. I absolutely adore her.  Tim 16:48We can put a link to that. Debbie 16:50Yeah, totally. Yeah, I did her course. And that's what changed everything for me completely. It then made the steps to the Red House, achievable. And I knew it's gonna happen, there was absolutely not one iota of doubt in my mind that this was going to happen in the next two years. Tim 17:11Okay, so 2020, lockdown happens, suddenly we have this new reality of working remotely, and that opens a door that you're ready to step through. Debbie 17:21100% I stepped through it. My business did take off really well, which was great.  Tim 17:30Right, I remember that's when we met.  Debbie 17:32Yes, something had to give because I couldn't continue with my full-time school job, and run DAP VA limited. So I had to, in February of 2021, I then handed in my notice, and the period of notice I had to give was six months. So, I said to them, You know what, don't worry, I'll give you until the end of this academic year ie July 2021. And then I'm gone. Not only will I work full-time on my business, but I'll also be leaving the country to move to Sweden. So up pops another spreadsheet, because now I have to do all the removal costs and all that sort of you know, get the van or the lorry come and take all what will we be taking them since we are left Europe and and you know, Brexit happened. So we classed as a third country to Sweden, so I have to pay import charges, all of these things. Whereas before you could just literally drive your whole house to Sweden, and that would not be a problem.  Tim 18:34So what's amazing about this to me is you made this decision, the move starts the unhooking from life, as it was, begins. Although I mean, you still do have deep connection to London. Your Hill was getting steeper, not more shallow. I mean, Debbie 18:52Yeah. But it looks achievable to me. I don't know.  Tim 18:55Oh absolutely. It was achievable. What I mean is that the difficulty level went up. That didn't stop you. It wasn't as easy as it would have been a few years prior. But that didn't stop Debbie  Debbie 19:09That's true. This point actually, is spot on Tim, because a few years prior, I wouldn't need a visa nor would I have needed to pay all those 1000s of pounds in imports. Tim 19:19You had momentum at this point. And that inertia was carrying you up that change curve. That wasn't the end of your struggles.  Debbie 19:29No, not at all. So obviously, you know, the beginning or the first half, I'd say of 2021 I was working so hard with two jobs and being a school business manager is a stressful full-on job even though my contract was term time only. So I thought okay, you know, I will have vacation time or holiday time and I will work on my business during those times and I'll make it work somehow, Tim, I always make it work. So it was full of excitement, anticipation. If I could literally, you know, see and touch the dream. I'd set up house viewings for Dan and I to go, and you know, view all these beautiful houses. The next visit we had to Sweden. So it became it started becoming, you know, when you can just taste something and you just have a little taste. It's so nice. You want to eat the whole thing. That's what was happening. So we did all these house viewings, and we listed the our favorites and blah, blah, went back to the UK, started winding down, packed up all our stuff in boxes that we wanted to bring to Sweden. Found a company that was great that would come and pick it off from door to door. And literally, one day before we were due to fly to Sweden, or the move, I'd applied for my visa at this stage as well. And they said, Look, you can come to Sweden anyway, even if it's isn't quite granted yet. Because, you know, you can stay on the 90-day rule that the UK nationals are allowed to stay in Sweden for 90 days per year. And your visa should come during that time. So it all was good. So you can come now, I was like, okay, great. Everything's great. One day, Tim, the fourth of August 2021. We had our British Airways flights booked on, on Thursday, the fifth of August, we were going to meet the removal van in Stockholm on Friday, the sixth of August. But on the fourth, I should just back up a week or so I went for what I thought was a routine scan and had the scan and left it and it usually takes about 10 days before you find out the results. I got a call from my GP on the fourth of August, saying the morning of, no sorry, she found me on the Monday. So that was the fourth was a Wednesday. She phoned me on the Monday and said, Debbie, I don't think you'll be going to Sweden. And I said now of course I'm going everything's sorted. We flying on Thursday. She said no, we have your scan and it's you have cancer basically. So I'm like “What? No,” she goes just to be sure. Let me do another scan. So I said okay, can you do it before Wednesday? Because I'm flying on Thursday. She said I really don't think you're flying. But yes, we'll see you on Wednesday. So still, I didn't believe it. Tim, I just thought nah, it's a mistake. And you know, these scans are misread sometimes. But anyway, I'll go on. I'll go on Wednesday. Yeah, so off, I went alone. Had a more detailed scan. First I had just a pelvic ultrasound. And then I said I can't wait for the results 10 days because I'm flying tomorrow. So can you just tell me what's on your screen? And he said, I remember the radiologist saying, see these dark clouds over here. And on both sides here. That's your left ovary. That's your right ovary, these dark clouds covering both ovaries. That's cancer. See these other dark clouds? That's your upper abdomen? Yep. See all how they floating looks like a skyline? That's cancer. You have cancer. Yeah, we don't know the staging yet. Because we've got to do more details. And I was like, oh, shock. I'm alone. What do I do? So I asked them, what would happen next? They said, Okay, we do an MRI, which is more detailed. And that will definitively tell us what's going on. So I asked if they could fit me in that afternoon. And they did. It was about 2:30. I had my scan on the fourth of August. After the MRI. straightaway. Yeah. Confirmed. So obviously I was a little bit. Yeah, I was in shock. I was numb. I was, it when I'm telling you this. Now it doesn't even feel like it's me I'm talking about, but it is me, though. I called Dan. I actually didn't even call him first. I called Dan's best friend. And his name is Anders. And I said, Look, I'm probably going to die. So I need you to take care of them for me. So can you do that? And at this point, I was crying. He couldn't even hear me. And I'm you know, so I just said, just promise me that you'll do this for me because, you know. It's important. Yeah, of course, whatever you do, blah, blah, blah. Then I phoned Dan. I told him, he came over straightaway to the hospital, along with my two daughters. And yeah, we just were a little bit in shock. The doctor came, spoke to us all. And it was at that point I knew well, we're not going to Sweden. So we went home and we played a board game and ate sandwiches. That's the first thing we did, which ,I don't like, I'll tell you why.  Tim 24:57That Red House that was so close. You could almost taste it. Debbie 25:00I was on my way.  Tim 25:02And you wanted more suddenly was suddenly like it was right there. And suddenly, it's just now thrust farther and farther away. It's not about the house. It's just that, you know, as the as a backdrop to your cancer journey, that you weren't going to Sweden.  Debbie 25:16Not at this time. Tim 25:18No, but you went home and you ate sandwiches. Debbie 25:20And played a board game. God knows why. Tim 25:22Played a board game. What happened next from now you're redoing all the math. This point was, Debbie 25:31No, I didn't even. Now I thought about life and death. So now my, my whole... Tim 24:33Your spreadsheet changed, now it had two columns.  Debbie 25:36I didn't even look at that for about a year. Actually. Tim 25:42If you know what I mean, is if you may have met one, it would have been pretty stark it would have been like, yeah, that's it.  Debbie 25:48Yea, so I just decided to, again, because I'm such a practical organized person. Okay, now death is coming. Let's get all my ducks in a row before I die. You know, so I need to do this, this, this, this and this. Okay, what should I do? Well, I didn't have a will, believe it or not. Okay, I need to get a well done. And even then, kind of, you know, Dan would say, Look, that's not priority. Right now, we need to see what can we do about this disease, we have an appointment in two weeks' time, everything in the UK is two-week wait under our national health system. And I said, I'm sorry, I can't sit here or lie here, knowing I have ovarian cancer and wait two weeks to hear how they can help me. Anybody at all who's had any kind of diagnosis of a terminal illness, it does not just cancer loads. You can't wait, Tim, two weeks and just stew over all the sooner you know, and the most dangerous thing is you go to Google and you start Googling. And Google is the worst thing you can do when you've been diagnosed, because the results it gives are not your results. They could be someone else's. And you know, you could be reading into it in the wrong way, which I did. I Googled how long can people with ovarian cancer live? And they, you know, maximum two years is what I was reading, and I'm like, Oh my God, I've got two years to live. No, I can't. Tim 27:21So you were literally Doom scrolling? Well, like without, we use the term Doom scrolling, like lightly now. But you were. Debbie 27:29Yea, I was.  Tim 27:30You were building up the doom. Debbie 27:31I decided to try and speed up things again, make it happen, you know, using my power. And I just woke up one morning, and after two days, I think from diagnosis, so this would have been a Saturday morning. I woke up at 5am. And I said, Dan, I'm getting dressed. I'm going to the hospital. He goes, baby, it's 5am Where are you going? I said, I'm just gonna sit there until I can speak to someone. I'm not waiting two weeks, I really can't. And that's exactly what I did. I woke up. He came with me. We'd sold our car as well by this time. So we because we were moving to Sweden, so we didn't have a car, got an Uber to the hospital. Tim 28:09And all your stuff is in a truck as well. Right? Debbie 28:10Well, it's in Sweden. It's already made the journey. We had to get Anders and other friends to come and offload for us. It was a nightmare, an absolute nightmare. And so at the hospital, I just waited. I went in there six o'clock, as soon as the oncology department opened, I just there was sort of seating just outside. And I sat there and waited for a staff member that came through. I'm like, I need to speak to someone right now. Tim 28:41Right? So you were advocating for yourself, you're advocating for knowledge for not being left in the lurch. And saying Debbie 28:48I'm also knowing, I need to know, you know, is this? You know, I know that there are so many advances in, you know, the treatment of cancer today, it's not as it was 20 or 30 years ago. It's far advanced. So I just want to know, will I live? Or will I die? Can you put a timeline on it? Or can you not? What's the deal? And so yeah, I did actually happen to speak to a really nice oncologist who looked at all my sort of notes and my scan results and everything. And he said, and this is where it got even worse. It's it. This looks so complicated. We actually can't treat you in this hospital. So we need to refer you to one of my colleagues. Her name is Angela. And she's, you know, the hospital just 20 minutes down the road. It's one of the best cancer research hospitals, certainly in the country and certainly in the world. And you'll be in good, good hands. I'm making you an appointment for Monday. So yeah, go go and see. No, no, he saw kind of the distress and then sometimes I'm Tim, you have to go with your feelings. You have to trust what you feel like doing rather than keep second-guessing yourself.  Tim 30:08Yeah, you weren't on anybody else's schedule. You weren't in anyone else's rules.  Debbie 30:12Yeah, I was on my own. Yeah. So that's another good sort of characteristic to develop because, you know best and you know how things should be. So yeah, I will just fast forward. I went to see Angela, Dan and I, it was our first time ever stepping over the threshold of a cancer hospital. Surprisingly, it was a lovely place. Even today, it's still my happy place. And saw Angela, she did more tests looked at me and said, Debbie, I'm so happy to tell you that we have developed a curative care plan for you and that word curative. I will never forget the emotion. The rush of emotion, our shoulders, both Dan and I, our shoulders dropped. We just breathed, exhaled a deep breath out. We both started crying. But smiling at the same time, because now I knew I'm not gonna die. So now I was... Tim 31:22Knew, not hoped.  Debbie 31:26Knew. 100% knew. Yeah, she said curative? While I was talking to Dr. Angela. George. I googled her just to see. And I saw that wow, this woman is, she's a kick-ass boss lady. I mean, she is like, head of genomics head of research. She's fabulous. She's known the world over. So when I saw her credential, I almost then and I still joke with her today I say, Oh my God, you're a goddess. She's from New Zealand. And I always say to her, I didn't see her for two weeks one time, and because she was on vacation, and when she got back, I was like, Oh my god. Dr. Jordan, I missed you. Where have you been? Oh, I went home to New Zealand. Ah, great. What did you do there? You know, my mom had a long list of chores for me to do. What? Does your mother not know who you are? You are Dr. Angela? Can I, I need to speak to your mom. You should be home eating grapes with somebody standing fanning you and you know caring to your every need and whim. And she's like Debbie, I'm a human being just like you are. Tim 32:27It's funny when I wouldn't give to hear Dr. Angela's perspective and perception of you through all of this. Man, that would be would be something to hear.  Debbie 32:38Yeah, I have heard it. Yeah, that's for another time. Okay. Anyway, so once she said that, and we knew both Dan and I, almost in unison, said, Okay, what should we do? Tell us what to do, and we will do it. And that was our mindset going forwards, even till today. It's tell us what to do. We'll do it. And of course, by they then you know, just to speed it up to them. Otherwise, we'll be here forever. She put a you know, six months chemo, followed by surgery, followed by monitoring tests. And basically, that's the plan. Yeah. And, you know, had all sorts of ups and downs during that time had nearly had my right leg amputated. I reacted badly to my first chemo drug. Paclitaxel, I'll never forget that I'm allergic to Paclitaxel. And on a scale of one to five, one being the not-so-bad. I'm a five. So basically, I passed out and woke up three hours or four hours later, with all these things attached my beautiful red dress split in half, because time was of the essence. So they have no time to, oh, let's not spoil her dress. And, you know, I'm here. I'm a fighter. I'm here. I'm resilient. Tim 33:54You gave yourself over to the process. That process was a curative process. That process was one more thing that you needed to do…  Debbie 33:59To achieve my red house. Tim 34:05To achieve this red house. Debbie 34:09So I had to also have some psychotherapy whilst I was being treated for cancer because, yeah, it's an aggressive cancer that I have and it's also an aggressive treatment for it. So, during my, one of my therapy sessions, I remember my therapist said, Debbie, you need an anchor, you need something to hold on to throughout this process. And we call it an anchor and that's going to anchor you and keep you steady. And so what is your anchor, and immediately I blurted out, The Red House. That's my anchor. I'm just going to live and fight this battle for the Red House. Of course you do it for your, you know, my beautiful partner, Dan, for my children, and for the grandson I didn't yet have at that time. So you know, I'm doing it for all of them. But I'm also doing it for the Red House. Tim 35:02And the Red House is so much more than just a building. I mean, it is an expression of everything that you were heading towards, what an optimum life looked like for you. I mean, often when we're doing, we're doing career, when I'm coaching, and we're looking at somebody's career, I ask them the question, “What is what is this all for? What's your future look like?” And when it comes to a job, I'll say, “What is the best day of the last year you're ever going to work look like?”, or the last year of your career going to look like, and then that's our North Star, that's the one that we're going towards. And this Red House was your North Star. Debbie 35:42It was indeed, it was indeed. But also it was place, because both Dan and I are very sociable people. We are gregarious we are. We love friends and family. And we said, we're not going to get a little red house that just fits us too. We're going to get a red house where everybody can come our friends, our family. It's just a place of community and socializing, and fun and laughing and enjoyment and love and sitting around the fight. It's all of that, Tim. So the red house is that red house, but it is a bigger vision than just the red house. Tim 36:22Let's maybe use this then to talk about and, and like not to gloss over this. You have still, you still had to battle. You've still had other aspects when it comes to the cancer journey. You are thankfully healthy now. But it has come at no small amount of effort, right? At the same time, you are now in the dream. You are, the dream is now reality. So give us a sense of what were the surprises? What were the surprises, the little things that this house has meant to you, that this new life has meant to you, that achieving this goal has meant to you? And also, perhaps the things that you never thought were going to happen that suddenly are realities. What does life look like now in the dream?  Debbie 37:06Oh, it's wonderful. I can't… I actually have another dream because I can't live without a dream. We always have to have a dream. But that's something else. I'll tell you at the end. Remember to ask me what my dream is now. It's wonderful. I really cannot stress enough how as human beings, we need to believe that we are stronger than we think we are more resilient than we think. And we absolutely can achieve. Yes, it's hard, as you said, Yes. You know, the trajectory to the dream is tough. And you know, I was pushed down that mountain 1000 times, Tim. But I got up. And I kept going. So it isn't so much about failing, because I did. But it's how do you pick yourself up after failing? Do you hold on to that North Star, that anchor? What do you do? And that's exactly what I did. I held on and held on. And you know, I made sure I shared my dream with everybody. I came in contact with Dr. Georgia. And when I had my second, my recurrence, my cancer came back after five months of being clear. And she knew I had this dream. And she said, Debbie, don't get the stress because we can we can treat this by surgery. So look at this as a big boulder in you, going along the road to your dream, all of a sudden a boulder comes and gets in your way. What do you do? Just go around it and then continue. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to go around the bouider and put you back on your road. And yeah, again, you know, that was so close, Tim. We came back in June of 2022. After being given the all-clear. We were here for days, the surgeon in London phoned and said I'm sorry, we your scan you had two weeks ago showed two masses one, seven and a half centimetres, one three and a half centimetres. Do you need to come back? For days, Tim? Yeah, I went back and then in February of this year, it all came to be I didn't wait for the all-clear. I made an arrangement with my hospital in London that, you know, I'll come back every three months for treatment and tests and scans. So in February, we looked at 13 houses in two days. And it's a big area that we had to cover. Everything is like 30-40 minutes apart. And we looked at thirteen. I actually got sick from looking at so many, all the houses and then went back to London and packed up the few things that we could now bring with us. By this time we bought another car so we packed the car up, drove to Sweden from London with our stuff, put an offer into the house that we saw, which was this one. It was accepted by the lovely Gustaf, who is the developer, and he built this house with his own hands. And when we finally met, we shared our story with him. He started crying, we started crying. He goes, as I was building this house, I was hoping that it would go to someone with love and who saw it for what it was. And he goes... Tim 40:19He had no idea.  Debbie 40:21Yea, he had no idea it was for me or for us. He even said I was going to paint it white because I'd ordered the red paint. And then I thought,  no, all the other houses are white, I need to paint this one white. So you phoned the company where he ordered the paint from and said, look, can I change from red to white? And the company said, sorry, no, we've already mixed your paint for you. It's coming. So he said oh, okay, don't worry, I'll just paint it red. How about that? Tim 40:52Well, it's, you know, we can talk about serendipity for sure. But I'm sure Gustaf, he had no idea of when he was looking for somebody that would love that house, just how much meaning it would represent. Debbie 41:04Oh, he said that. And we actually invited him back after we'd moved in and, you know, changed things. That garden was developed. And it's now furnished, and it's got our stamp on it. And he came over, and again, he was filled with tears. And he's like, this is exactly what I had in mind that you would do in this room when I built it. This is how I, you know, our open plan kitchen and living room has a Fika area. Remember Fika? Very important. He actually said I want this to be the heart. And where we all gather? And for sure, Tim, everything happens in the Fika area. Tim 41:41Yea, and Fika, for those that don't know, what's the word? Debbie 41:44Fika is the art of Swedish coffee, drinking, where you go, you take time to be in the moment with friends, colleagues, family, whoever, no electronics, nothing, you just are present, and enjoy each other over a cup of coffee or tea, and a bun or a sweet treat. Tim 42:03I think I think that's really interesting to think I see you living always in two zones, you were very clear about what your vision was. But you didn't step too far away from the moment. Because you were always working. You were always working in the moment you worked. Not in somebody's two-week timeframe. But you said no, I gotta go advocate for myself, and you did. And then and then everything for you has been a balance between things being far away and having that Northstar, but then doing what makes immediate sense in order to leverage the situation that's in front of you. Debbie 42:39But I think it all circles back to what you said in the very beginning. You know, the Red House signifies this dream or vision or lifestyle that I wanted to have. And without that clear, definitive dream or vision, I don't feel I could have achieved it. So if I've said, Well, I could live in a red house, maybe a green one would do. Oh, I don't mind if it's close to the city or, you know, maybe it can just be in a field. I'm so sort of wishy-washy. Tim 43:11But but in this case, you did not compromise.  Debbie 43:15No, it was a definitive kind of vision where it had to be. And the picture said it all I wish I knew whose house that was, but it was, you know, close to water with the forest. There, right there and clearly in the countryside. And that is that's how I wanted to live. Yeah, Tim 43:33Yea, it will be a question whether or not that was predetermined? Or if that is something that you made the most likely most statistically possible.  Debbie 43:44I think it's a bit of both. Yeah, I think it's a bit of both because I believe this is my path. And you know, throughout it, I didn't sort of say I'm the cancer person, even though I introduced myself as that. But I always do put a caveat that cancer has never defined me, I still worked on DAP VA limited during my chemotherapy, I'm in the hospital. And, you know, I still did all the things I could do until I couldn't. And when I couldn't I took an eight month break because I had to focus on my recovery and beating this disease. But as soon as I was able to, I came back, and here I am. I've been working ever since. Tim 44:24And it's a life without compromise in many ways, is what I see, like there's of course you make small adjustments. But would you say that through all this, your ability to yes, both flow with things and move around the boulders as you need to. That's a skill that you've obviously developed but also, you're not living by anybody else's rules. Would you say that anything's changed from you and just that level of sort of determination of? Debbie 44:53I've gained a resilience I never thought I had, you know before a pre-cancer, you kind of or even pre-DAP VA limited, you kind of hear the word resilience, people talk about being resilient. And it kind of sort of doesn't settle. But since I've now had to prove resilience, I feel that now I totally understand what that word means. I also understand what self-discovery means. Because never did I look inward, I would always just do things and never sort of think, how am I doing this? And what's my driver? What's the goal? I would just do it, you know. And so, this whole becoming a business owner, having this dream, having cancer has taught me and showed me that yeah, I'm sorry to use the cliche, but we are so much stronger than we think. Tim 45:51You have to be careful not to believe what you think. That's so yeah. Debbie 45:55Yea, and I kept sort of feeding my brain with positive things. You know, funny thing is Tim, this house before we even moved, or even had viewed it, in London, I bought all the soft furnishings, for a four-bedroom house. And, you know, Dan was like, You're crazy. You don't even know it's gonna have three bedrooms or four. But I said, No, I know, I'm just buying this room, this room, this room, I bought enough stuff for two bathrooms. It's like, we don't know if we can have two bathrooms, baby. I said, no, I know. Tim 46:30Not everybody is going to always understand. And I think for those of the people that are listening, if this story doesn't give them some perspective, in terms of just how, you know, if you think your life is difficult, take a look, take a look at what Debbie's overcome and adopt some of her principles. And I mean, what I'm what I've jotted down here, as we've been talking is that North Star, that vision is, among the first the ability to break things down into into manageable chunks, the ability to then build a momentum. That's just incredible. And I remember back in the day, we used to say, you know, put yourself between the immovable object and the irresistible force, right? And then, you know, you know, Your situation may change and you're ready to be resilient for what unknowns are going to come up or what things how the environment or how the situation is going to change. You need to flow with that.  Debbie 47:27And I think it's also the power of positivity, you know, I read her book at the time that I was actually I was staying in hospital. And you know, it's just that positivity, Tim, I know, it sounds like nothing, but oh, my God, the power of positivity is a force that you cannot reckon with. I'm sorry, it's staying positive. That's also another thing I learned. You know, I did consider myself a positive person before cancer, pre-cancer, but I didn't realize that positivity actually can change your life. Tim 48:06Well, I'm for those of you that are interested. Read has been on the show a couple of times, or we've got two episodes with read on it. We'll put links to those in the shownotes.  Debbie 48:12Yeah, definitely.  Tim 48:15Your story about how you're able to advocate for yourself is one of the things that I love most about that is just when you are willing to stand up for yourself, how many people will then stand up with you. Whereas if you're willing, if you're just going to relegate yourself to you know, being part of some predetermined process, people will keep moving the way they were moving anyway. And I think back to Dolly Parton, she had this saying if you don't like the road, you're on pave a new one. In your story, I just so many times you found yourself on a road more rocky than perhaps you had anticipated. Debbie 48:56Yea, so true. Dolly's words.  Tim 48:59Yea, as we wrap up here, let's, let's talk a little bit about some of the amazing things that are happening now. Your story has inspired many other people. Debbie 49:08I'm filled with gratitude, really, Tim. You know, every day I wake up, I'm alive, I'm healthy, I can do all the things that I could be for my cancer, despite having body parts missing, ie, I have a stoma, that colostomy bag on my left side. And I can still do everything. So I'm really grateful. So then I just kind of thought, now I'm on my feet. I'm back at work. You know, I'm enjoying working with my clients, who I love and adore all of you, all of them. And how can I give back? How do we, what do I do? What should I do? I can't just sit here and bask in the glory of the grid house. So I decided to put myself in the most uncomfortable position ever, which is speaking in public. And so I share my story wherever I'm invited. In order to you know, spread awareness that we can achieve that getting a terminal or a serious illness diagnosis perhaps is the better term is not the end of the road. There is light at the end of the tunnel. And you know, just maybe adjusting our mindset a little because you do have to contend with dealing with your illness as well. But you know, within that, try your hardest to see the positive side of these things. For example, having Chloe, that's the name of my stoma. Chloe, the colostomy, gives me priority boarding on any flight. So wow, I love, I love Chloe and airport security. I just go present myself at the fast track with my little badge. And there I go on the fast track. I never queue. Tim 50:55There you go, so many silver linings. Debbie 50:58They are so yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also, I enjoy speaking, one on one like this. Very nervous about speaking in public. And so yesterday, I was invited to speak for a charity that actually helped us, Dan and I in 2021, when we were down and out, it's called the Macmillan Cancer Charity, based in the UK. I love them to death. Well, no, I love them not to death, but I love them. And so I love them to live. And they said, would you come and share your story as our away day so that, you know, all the people who support and donate and work in this charity understand, and just are reminded of why they do the job they do. It's because of people like me, they literally gave me life. They supported me when I was in my darkest moments in so many ways, Tim. And so I thought yeah, of course I'll do it even though my stomach was doing somersaults the whole time. And I felt like throwing up and pay off with me lunch and I couldn't eat. But I just thought now I've got to do this. And you know, there was not a dry eye in the room. And I didn't do it to make them cry. I said to them, no, I'm I'm emotional. Because I'm so grateful to have this platform, not only to share, but also to actually thank you, each and every single one of you, how much you, you know, helped us to thank you for, you turned our lives around. And so, you know what you do, please do not minimize it. You actually do change lives.  Tim 52:38Again, it's a story for another time, but we can talk about, you've shared with me how influential you're being locally around local government and other areas. You're exercising your advocacy  Debbie 52:45My a voice.  Tim 52:49Yeah, yeah, your voice without making it too cute. If you weren't operating from this dream achieved, in a sense, you're in the red house. Now if you, if you didn't have this new these set of of traumatic and like, this amazing, but very treacherous journey that you've been on. You're seeing things with new eyes. If you if that hadn't happened? Would you have the voice you have today? Debbie 53:19No, absolutely not. I'd be on the treadmill that I had been on for 34 years. Same old, same old, nothing new. Tim 53:26So I'm gonna ask you two things. One is, let people know where they can connect with you.  Debbie 53:35Absolutely.  Tim 53:36Where would you like them to connect with you? And the second thing is, if you had a wish for people that are listening to this today, what would that wish be? Okay, so where can people find you? Debbie 53:44where can people find you so people can find me? I'm on LinkedIn. So it's just Google Debbie Potts. My company is DAP VA Limited. They can also just Google DAP VA Limited. Tim 53:58We'll put those in the show notes. Debbie 53:59Perfect. So yeah, I think my one wish for everybody who's listening and facing any kind of challenge, uncertainty, you know, indecisive. Don't give up; find your anchor, find your north star and work towards it. Because you'll get there. Tim 54:22And every step towards that star is going to be a discovery about who we really are. Debbie 54:29Absolutely. But it also takes you that one step closer. No matter what it takes you step, it takes you closer, so please don't give up whoever you are, wherever you are. Tim 54:40Keep coming back to that even when it seems that it's pulled away from you a little further, you know? Debbie 54:45Yeah, totally. Oh, you got it, Tim, you understand. Tim 54:49Right. Well, Debbie, love you so much. And thank you for spending time with me.  Debbie 54:55That's okay.  Tim 54:56Okay. Well, Debbie 54:57You're so welcome. Thank you very much Tim 54:58Till next time. Buh-bye  Debbie 55:00Bye.  Tim 55:01There's so much more we could talk about. We didn't even get to talk about your next dream.  Debbie 55:07Well, Do you want to know what it is, Tim?  Tim 55:09Yea, I do?  Debbie 55:10It's a Yamarin, six and a half foot, boat, speed boat. It has a sundeck at the back enough for six to seven people. It's got a little table so we can have our dinner in the middle of the archipelago in the ocean.  Tim 55:20There we go.  Debbie 55:22It's got to cover so that Dan and I can go and camp out in the archipelago should we wish. So I have a picture of a boat. So I'm working towards it. I'm close. I'm very close. The deadline or the timeline is March 2024 to purchase it. If not before. And then they will put it in the water. So I've been to speak to them. I've spoken I'm a regular visitor, I go sort of every two weeks, and they all know my name. They go ideally, you ready to buy the boat? I go no, no, no, not yet. But I have a question. So they're gonna put it in the water for us in April next year, already and good to go. And then we're going to use it throughout the summer season. And then in September, October, they're going to pick it up and store it for us. Ready for the following year. And they're going to clean it services, fix it and we don't even have to worry about any of that. So in order to achieve that dream, I first need a spot to moor my boat during the summer season. So, before I can buy the boat, because it's pointless having a boat and got nowhere to put it. During the summer season. I had to go and find the spot and of course all the spots are taken because we live close to the water. And you know, everybody has the boats in the summer. So everyone was like no, the spot is a two-year waiting list. Now I can't wait to use that spot. There's no hardly anybody changes. You know what I did? I went old school Tim. I typed on a piece of A4 paper. And we invite everybody new to the area. We live in (area of Sweden) and we're looking for a spot to moor boats. If anyone knows of anybody who's giving up this spot and will please remember this number. Old guy rang the number. And he says, oh, yeah, I know a spot over, maybe it's a five-minute drive from us that okay? And we go absolutely. We got a spot.  Tim 57:24There you go.  Debbie 57:26Got a spot. Tim 57:29So Debbie's next dream is the boat. The boat, the blue boat. What color is it?  Debbie 57:38It's white. It's called a Yamarin. I'll send you a picture after this. Tim 57:42Sounds great. All right. Can't wait to hear about Debbie's next adventure soon. Tim 57:53Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word to by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading 

Acts 4: 13-22 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.” 18So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, 20for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” 21And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened. 22For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old.

1. Introduction (00:19): - Title: "Understanding Mindfulness and Conscious Living through Buddhism" - Introduction: Matthew Hawk Mahoney, host of "The Imperfect Buddhist," delves into the significance of patterns in mindful living.2. Mindful Living and Recognizing Patterns (01:07 - 02:34): - Understanding the role of mindfulness in recognizing and altering life patterns, fostering conscious decision-making and personal growth.3. Understanding Life's Cycles and Patterns (03:17 - 04:18): - Highlighting the concept of interconnectedness and life cycles, emphasizing the significance of patterns in mindful and Buddhist philosophies.4. Cultivating Present Moment Awareness and Mindfulness Practice (04:18 - 06:32): - Emphasizing the importance of mindfulness and present moment awareness as fundamental practices in conscious living and Buddhist teachings.5. Mindful Relationships and Conscious Communication (06:32 - 09:45): - Applying mindfulness to foster healthy relationships, emphasizing the importance of conscious communication and understanding patterns in interpersonal dynamics.6. Transforming Patterns through Mindfulness and Gratitude (09:45 - 11:56): - Exploring methods for transforming deep-rooted patterns through mindfulness and expressing gratitude, aligning with Buddhist principles and conscious living practices.7. Conclusion: Embracing Mindful Living for Joy and Fulfillment (11:56): - Encouraging readers to embrace mindful living and conscious awareness, fostering joy, love, and well-being in alignment with Buddhist teachings and principles.Transcript00:19Welcome to the Imperfect Buddhist. My name is Matthew Hawk Mahoney, and today's episode is titled Buddhism and Patterns.01:07Patterns have been a key theme in my life lately. Particularly patterns that I would like to cease or change or augment. Maybe I'm halfway there. Maybe half the battle is knowing that I have patterns. Patterns have been playing an important part in my life right now, in my marriage and my personal life. Decisions I make with my health, how I spend my time, how I show up in my relationship.01:35Do I show up with a approach of love and growth and wanting to learn about myself and my partner? Or do I show up with feelings of jealousy, of control, of needing things to be a certain way? How does my partner show up? Is my partner showing up with patterns she created in her past? Certain family dynamics that shaped her at a young age? Is she showing up to me with those patterns?02:04or she's showing up with a mindset of love, growth, honesty. And let's not forget fun. My dad, of all people, because he has some serious habits and patterns in his life, he told my sister, I don't know if he told me, I think he told my sister, but it's a thing that we bring up every now and then in the family where he said, you know, Amanda, everything's a pattern, everything's a circle. When it comes to our habits, seems to be the case, seems to be true.02:34When we're unconscious, as can happen with anybody, even the most serious meditators in the world, we find ourselves at the end or the beginning or the middle of a habit. We ask, how the hell did I get here again? Some of us might believe we have no control, that this is just how it is, this is just my life, and it's your fault. It's her fault, it's his fault, it's their fault that I'm acting this way.03:17Patterns are a part of life. And to try to say that we should be devoid of patterns, goes against human nature, goes against nature itself. Look at the sun, look at the moon. They rise and they fall, usually around the same spot in the sky depending on the time of year. It rains, it's sunny, trees grow leaves and the leaves fall down to the ground and nourish the soil and the soil nourishes the tree. The tree makes new leaves.03:47The leaves fall down and nourish the soil. Our bodies, we inhale. Our lungs fill with air and pulls oxygen into our bloodstream. And we exhale that carbon dioxide. We inhale again. Our digestion, we get hungry. We eat food. Food goes in, it's digested, and it comes out as poop. It's all cycles. Everything is patterns. Experts will tell you it's good to have a healthy routine, a healthy pattern.04:18So how does Buddhism or mindfulness, present moment awareness, play a part in any of this? A friend and I were talking, and this is one of my best friends in the whole world, and my friend had been at the bar, just taking a little bit of me time, doing some journaling, reading some self-help books, trying to just figure out how they were feeling, what was going on with them. And I met up with them after they'd done this soul-searching session.04:47They were talking about how they wanted to start doing like these self check ins with themselves. They asked themselves like, how am I feeling? What am I doing right now? And we started talking about it and they asked me, how do you start with these patterns, either making new patterns or changing old patterns? The truest answer I could say was present moment awareness. And does it matter if you're Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Catholic, Satanist? The present moment is a real thing. It's right here in front of us. And05:15Being in the moment, being present is not a religious belief, it's just an act. It's a habit to focus. If we want to work on our patterns in life, we have to start where we're at. We have to start where the patterns start and start paying attention. Present moment awareness is the key to having some authorship to get our hand on the wheel of our life a little bit and to steer a little bit consciously. Like we're in a Tesla05:45car and it's autopiloting towards the ultimate destination of our life and we're like watching YouTube on the screen or playing one of those Tesla video games that comes with the car and then we like look up and we start looking around and we're like wait a minute do I want to go here? Do I want to go to Chuck E Cheese for the 50th time this month? I'm kind of sick of Chuck E Cheese. I haven't liked Chuck E Cheese since I was five years old. I am a 55 year old man.06:14Why do I keep going to Chuck E. Cheese? Do I like Chuck E. Cheese? I think I'm gonna turn off autopilot and maybe go to Olive Garden. What's more mature than Olive Garden?06:32So the core teaching in most meditative traditions is mindfulness and present moment awareness. And there's a reason for that. It is the key to deeper states of awareness, to augmenting habits, changing habits, engaging in new habits that hopefully benefit our well-being, feeling a freedom in life, joy, relationships.06:57Relationships and patterns seems to be one of the areas where patterns become most prevalent, most hurtful, most painful. Whether that's our own patterns and the way we are in relationships or the way other people are with us based on their patterns. And I'm guilty of it. I can admit that I have my patterns that are not so helpful. In this particular situation with this person I was with, she got home after work. I had made a nice meal.07:27I noticed a tightness in their face, like a little crease in between the eyebrows, usually a sign that something's going on. My partner had signed up for a book reading group and I said, oh, that's cool. I'd like to go. And they said, no, I don't really want you to go. I want to do this on my own. Sometimes you have a habit of talking over me or I feel like I can't express myself fully when you're around. And that was hard to hear, but I understood where they were coming from.07:57was much more quiet and there had been talks about how sometimes I could overpower them or talk over them. So yes, I totally got where they were coming from. I said, okay, I understand. As we sat on the couch, I said, hey, let's talk. Let's just connect and do a little check in. And it started pretty positive. But as we talked, that tightness on my partner's face came back and they had this crease between their eyebrows and I could sense.08:23It was getting heavy again. We eventually got to the bottom of it, and my partner expressed to me that she felt embarrassed by jokes I would make. And that was really hard to hear. And I felt sad that we had to dig so much to get to the bottom of what was going on. My partner expressed to me that, oh my God, this was a pattern. That she, in some ways, was projecting some of my responsibility on how she should feel or not feel when it comes to being.08:53embarrassed or not. The bigger pattern here was maintaining the status quo. So instead of telling me and really sitting down and expressing to me how serious this feeling of embarrassment and my part in bringing that up in them was, she decided to avoid that, maintain the status quo, and then begin to exclude me from certain social events. For her it was a moment of revelation of this is09:23points of contention out of fear of upsetting the person in my life. It was something that they learned early on with their family, their parents, and it was a pattern that was brought into our relationship.09:45I used to do these quick tip things and who knows, I may bring it back, but really there's only one tip and that is to be present. To do the practices that bring your attention and focus your mind on what's happening right now in your body, in your mind, in the environment around you. And that's really the only tip I can really give is that we can cultivate our present moment awareness through practices like mindfulness, meditation, and we can use the...10:14present moment energy that we cultivate through this to work with the patterns in our life. Sometimes noticing a pattern is all it will take to change it. Noticing a pattern though, sometimes it stays the same. It may even increase for a time. But usually through the simple noticing of a pattern, when we see it in the totality that is available to us as much as we can, we see what does it create? What is it creating in our lives and our relationships? Is it...10:41Is it bringing us closer to people? Is it pushing people away? Is it bringing us closer to a feeling of wholeness, of health, of love? Is it pushing those things away? We see the result and sometimes that's enough to completely change the pattern. With other things that are deeply ingrained, like my partner's habit of maintaining a status quo, or my patterns of jealousy or worry, it takes more time, it takes more work.11:10We've learned these habits to survive and we can honor them. We can get real self-help you with it. Say to these unhelpful habit patterns during meditation, thank you. Thank you, worry. You've helped me survive probably some situations, whatever reason, you're probably going to stay around or stick with me, but let's try to switch things up a little bit because it's not as helpful anymore. You can think the patterns and let them go and maybe they'll come back expressed in a new healthier way.11:56Wonderful week ahead and whatever patterns you experience. I hope that they bring you more joy, love, health, and just an awesome fricking life. I look forward to talking with you next time. Thanks, bye.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-imperfect-buddhist/donations

Matthew Week 24 Righteousness From the heart Updated: 5 days ago       “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”   Ephesians 2:10 NASB1995       “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,”   2 Corinthians 5:17-18 NASB1995   ““Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.””   Matthew 11:28-30 NASB1995       ““Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”   Matthew 5:17-20 NASB1995                     10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.   2Peter 3:10-13     19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matthew 5:19     9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.   2 Corinthians 5:9-10   5“And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!   Matthew 18:5-7     1 Corinthians 6:19-20   19Or do you not know that your body is a [l]temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from [m]God, and that you are not your own? 20For you have been bought for a price: therefore glorify God in your body.     1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.   Romans 6:1-4     6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.   Phillipians 1:6           20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.   Matthew 5:20     1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.   Matthew 23:1-7       Isaiah 29:13   13Then the Lord said, “Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,     1 Samuel 16   7But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”       Luke 18:9-14   9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”     Isaiah 64:6-7   6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.   7There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.       Jeremiah 17:9-10   9“The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?     Romans 5:16-19   16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.   18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.       2 Corinthians 5:21   21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.     Ezekiel 36:25-27   25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.     Jeremiah 31:33   33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.     Romans 12:1   1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.   We worship our God by obeying him knowing that we are already and are becoming Righteous.   Hebrews 10:12-18   12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,   16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,” He then says,   17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”   18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.  

1 Peter 3:15 “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you.”THE DOCTRINE OF MAN“the doctrine of humanity (man) sees the human person as made in God's image, either man or woman by God's making, fallen through Adam's historical sin, formed for vocation (work) unto God, and redeemable in and through the God-man, Jesus Christ.“- Owen Strachan“Humanity is the race made for God; humanity is the race fallen from God; humanity is the race made whole by God in Christ. In God's plan, everything bends towards Christ.“-Wayne Grudem“the only way we can ever really find out who we are is from God. The best place to find out begins in Genesis.“-David Guzik“Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.26 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them.27” Genesis 1:26-27“…In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.1 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.2" Genesis 5:1-2“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.7” Genesis 2:7“And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.21 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.22" Genesis 2:21-22#1 Who are we? We are image bearers“Hitherto God has been introduced simply as commanding (“let there be light, and there was light” Genesis 1:3). Now, when he approaches the most excellent of all his works, he enters into consultation… for the purpose of commending to our attention the dignity of our nature. He, in taking counsel concerning creation of man, testifies that he is about to undertake something great and wonderful.“-John CalvinThe Hebrew word for image is Tselem (t-sell-em) and is derived from the words “to carve” or “to cut”.The Hebrew word for likeness is demuth (d-ma-th)“When scripture reports that God said ‘Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness' it simply would have meant to the original Hebrew readers, ‘let Us make man to be like Us and to represent Us'“-Wayne Grudem“….Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth6- Everyone who is called by My name, whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him.7” Isaiah 43:6-7We bear God's image in “tri-unity”2. We represent God's likeness in our authority/dominion“Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.26. Genesis 1:26“that man was made last of all the creatures, that it might not be suspected that he had been, anyway a helper to God in the creation of the world: that question must be forever humbling and mortifying to him, ‘where wast thou, or any of thy kind, when I laid the foundations of the earth?' Job 38:4”-Matthew Henry“Man created in God's image was placed in sovereignty over the earth, crowned with glory and honor, yet subject to God his creator.“- Scofield study Bible3. We bear God's image in morality“you shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.” Leviticus 19:2So, who are we? First, we are image bearers because we are triune beings with dominion and a moral character#2 Who are we? We are fallen“1Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3  but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'” 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. 8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hide myself.” 11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” 12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?“” Genesis 3:1-13“There is none righteous, no not one” Romans 3:10“For there is no difference. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:22-231.   Their sin gave a different answer to the “who am I?” question“Then the serpent said to the woman, ‘you will not surely die. For God knows in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-52.   Their sin gave a different answer to the “whose authority?” question“So when the woman saw that tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave her husband with her, and he ate.” Genesis 3:6“Let Us make man in our own image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, over the cattle, over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26“For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.13 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?14 And how shall they preach unless they are sent….15”. Romans 10:13-15“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.13 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.14 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.15 Let your light so shine before men, they may see your good works and glorify your father in heaven.16" Matthew 5:13-163.   Their sin gave a different answer to the “what is true/right?” question?“It is precisely because people have abandoned the truth of Genesis that society is in such disarray.“- David Guzik“The first couples' sin is our sin, furthermore: we do not trust and obey God's word, worshipping him through obedient following, but rather trust and obey ourselves obediently worshipping as we do.“- Wayne GrudemSo who are we? Secondly, we are image bearers who now bear a fallen image#3 Who are we? We are a restored image“The human race as presented in scripture is primarily a history of man in a state of sin and rebellion against God, and of God's plan of redemption to bring many people back to himself…In the fall God's image was distorted but not lost.“- Wayne Grudem“And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled21 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.22” Colossians 1:21-22“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.22" 1 Corinthians 15:22“Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away16….But we all, with unveiled face, (those who have turned to the Lord/saved) beholding as in mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the spirit of the Lord.18” 2 Corinthians 3:16,18So who are we? Lastly, we are image bearers, who serve a God who made a way to redeem our fallen, distorted image back to his created intention!

Romans 1:16-17For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew and then to the heathens. 17. For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written "The righteous will live by faith"Habakkuk 2:4Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.2 Corinthians 5:7For we walk by faith, not by sight.Hebrews 10:38But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”Romans 14:23:Whatever is not from faith is sin.Ephesians 6:16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;Hebrews 11:8By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.Matthew 17:20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."Mark 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can'! All things are possible for one who believes.1 Corinthians 2:5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.Hebrews 4:1-2Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.Philippians 4:19And my God will supply all your needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus.Matthew 21:22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.Mark 10:52 Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.Romans 14:23: Whatever is not from faith is sin.2 Corinthians 4:16-18So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.Proverbs 3:5-6Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.Hebrews 10:35-36So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.James 4:7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep His promise.1 John 5:4 - For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faitSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/622a9079e8fb640012cb94f3. I pray that God would "give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18I, pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance" https://plus.acast.com/s/blueprint-of-faith. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

September 13, 2023Today's Reading: Luther's Small Catechism, the Lord's prayer: Fifth PetitionDaily Lectionary: 1 Kings 8:22-30, 46-63, 2 Corinthians 4:1-18So we too will sincerely forgive and gladly do good to those who sin against us (SC, LP, Explanation to the Fifth Petition)In the Name + of Jesus. Amen. Forgiveness is at the heart of the Christian Faith. No forgiveness, no Christianity. If Jesus does not take all our sins upon Himself in order to crucify them in His own body, and then deliver forgiveness to us in His resurrection life, there is no Christianity. That forgiveness is not conditional. He gives it freely, just as the master freely forgives the enormous debt owed by the servant in Matthew 18:23-27. This is what the Kingdom of Heaven is like: a master forgiving a debt that the servant could never repay, no matter how much time he had.But then that same servant goes out and uses his new-found freedom from debt to force someone else to pay him. He won't even give the second servant some more time, although the second servant is far more likely to repay the first than the first would be to repay the master. In other words, the first servant refuses to extend the gigantic gift of the master to the second servant. Jesus concludes the parable with the words of the master: “Should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?” And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart” (Matthew 18:33-35). Why are Jesus' words so harsh? Simply for this reason: if God's forgiveness in Christ is not big enough to cover the sins of  those who sin against us, then it is not big enough to cover our sins. It is all or nothing with God: either His forgiveness covers every single person, or it covers no one. So how do we learn to forgive others? Only by being forgiven. Our forgiveness of others is not actually ours; it is God's. It does not come naturally to us; we often find it difficult, or even impossible. And, in fact, it is–for us. But the entirely undeserved forgiveness that God gives us in Christ not only covers us, but it covers those who sin against us. When we forgive, we are forgiving with Christ's forgiveness. We're playing with house money. All for us, and all for others. Forgiveness is everything. In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.“Forgive our sins, Lord, we implore, That they may trouble us no more;  We, too, will gladly those forgive Who hurt us by the way they live.  Help us in our community  To serve each other willingly” (LSB 766:6).- Pastor Timothy Winterstein is pastor at Faith Lutheran Church, East Wenatchee, Washington.Audio Reflections Speaker: Pastor Jonathan Lackey is the pastor at Grace Lutheran Church, Vine Grove, Ky.Study Christ's words on the cross to see how you can show more Christlike grace in your life. Perfect for group or individual study, each chapter has a Q&A at the end, and the back of the book includes a leader guide. Available now from Concordia Publishing House.

In this week's episode, Riccardo switches chairs and guest host, Jim Barnard, asks all the questions. Riccardo shares insights from his Oxford Saïd Business School dissertation on the use of collaborative contracting into major programmes, specifically PPP structures. Riccardo and Jim delve into the complications and complexities of risk management, adversarial situations, stakeholders and shareholders and private financing.   “When you have collaborative contracting, you almost waive your legal rights or your rights to pursue legal remedies. And so, all of the parties are around the table. There are many advantages of collaborative contracting, but the simplest one is, instead of hiring lawyers to sort out disputes, you're redeploying those resources to actually solving project problems.” Key Takeaways:  The price of winning contracts in the PPP market and how the public sector entity comes into playWhy collaborative contracting provides better odds for finishing on time and on budget, but equity has to take more riskPPP and politics, how do we navigate it?  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community: Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInJim Bernard on LinkedIn Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino 00:05You're listening to navigate the major problems, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversationshappening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'myour host, Riccardo Cosentino brings over 20 years of major product management experience. Mostrecently, I graduated from Oxford University Said business school, which shook my belief when itcomes to navigating major problems. Now, it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode, as I pressthe industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends andthe critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see what theconversation takes us. Hello, and welcome to a new episode of navigating major programs. Todaywe're going to be doing things a little bit differently. My friend, and one point guest of the show asagreed kindly to be hosting this podcast. And we'll do a role reversal where I'm going to be doing thepresenting and Jim Barnard is going to co-host the show. And today we're going to talk about a topicthat is very close to my heart, which is the use of collaborative contracting into major programs,especially into PPP structures. I've done a full dissertation at Oxford as part of my master, majorprogram management, and I decided that it'd be good to walk you through my findings and myconclusion. Anyway, let me introduce the host for today. Jim Bernard. How you doing? Jim?Jim 02:00I'm great. Riccardo, thanks for having me. Big fan of the podcast, obviously had the chance to be on apreviously so very much appreciate the opportunity to be host this time.Riccardo Cosentino 02:11So today, as I said, I'll be a be doing the talking. And you'll be doing the asking. Maybe I can start? I'lljump right into it unless you have a specific question for me. And maybe I can give a bit of a bit of anoverview of my research thesis and some of my findings and some of my conclusions.Jim 02:34 2Transcribed by https://otter.aiYes, summary will be great, a perfect place to start. But some of our folks listening may not becompletely familiar with even the concept of collaboration. And I know having read your dissertationthat you get into some fairly technical and detailed topics relative to finance and how structures are setup and that type of thing. So for those of us either less familiar or kind of new to the topic, if you don'tmind, let's start as basic as possible.Riccardo Cosentino 03:03Okay, well, let's start with, let's start with what prompted me to research this specific topic, the probablya good place to start here. I you know, I'm a professional the work in public private partnership over thelast 20 years. So again, a lot of knowledge about the topic, I have structured and finance manytransactions that use non recourse financing. And a couple of years ago, my company decided to exitthe what we call the lump sum turnkey business, which is the type of contracting where a private sectorentity commits to deliver a project on time and on budget and every any cost overruns. And at any cost,and any time overruns are absorbed by the entity that has committed to deliver the project. So mycompany has been losing a lot of money with the stock form a contract. So in 2018, we decided toexited. However, this type of contract is the cornerstone of non recourse financing, recourse financingis financing that doesn't, doesn't lean on the asset of the parent company, but the only leans on theasset of the other special purpose vehicle that is delivering the project,Jim 04:26basically. Project.Riccardo Cosentino 04:29Yes. Right. So it's basically the future revenues, that that's the only recourse available to lenders debtand equity lenders is access to, to project revenues rather than corporate revenue associated with theentity that is delivered project.Jim 04:49Right.Riccardo Cosentino 04:50And because my company exited this business lumpsum turnkey, indirectly we also exited theconstruction portion of public private partnerships were where entities or companies, contractors arehired to deliver the project under the structure. However, we still wanted to stay involved in contracting.So what we started researching is different types of contracts and collaborative contracting, came upalliances IPD all forms of contract that they include a large component of collaboration. In this type ofcontracts, the risk is not transferred to the product to the contracting entity is the risk of on timecompletion and on budget completion stays within the project sponsor. There is a Pain Gain sharingmechanism, where the contracting entity, the contractor that is delivering the project puts their fee risk,but they're not taking on the cost of around burden that is typical of lump sum turnkey. So once westarted researching this, the question that I was asked many, many times, being the expert in publicprivate partnership is can we convince clients and lenders to use collaborative contracting within thenon recourse PPP structure? And intuitively, I didn't think it was possible, I did some preliminary 3Transcribed by https://otter.airesearch as part of my job. But I couldn't really find conclusive answers of why collaborativelycontracting could or could not be used within a PPP structure,Jim 06:45where I take a step back down, how did you do your preliminary research was at a qualitative research,quantitative research and kind of benefits of both detriments of both How did you choose what methoddid you use and how did you choose it.Riccardo Cosentino 06:58So during what while I was still working, so before I use an academic method, I, I just looked at thecommercial parameters, I just look at the commercial framework and in the legal framework, and I justtried to see if the economic principle of the commercial principle would support these type ofcommercial and legal structure, right. And based on my understanding of the commercial principle, nonrecourse financing, where risk has to be transferred, and where lenders that especially debt lenders,needs to be kept whole in the PPP structure, the only entity that can keep the lenders or is thecontractor delivering the work? I mean, no, it's not the only way. But it's the most economical way. Andthe cheapest way of implementing a project finance structure is to have the contractor guaranteeing thedelivery of the project by putting up the balance sheet and by taking on the cost of Iran in a lump sumturnkey model,Jim 08:07but the fee, the fees at that point are fixed, right. So you're really talking all downside, fixed upside inthat structure. I mean, it sounds not just unpalatable, but somewhat dangerous for the contractor to getinto that arrangement.Riccardo Cosentino 08:23It is and they think he has worked in the past to a certain degree where Contractor have been able tomanage that risk the took on. But I think over the last 15 years, the market got so competitive, thatcontractors have been racing to the bottom sometimes fixing the cost of the project to a level too low toactual deliver and then end up absorbing all of the losses at the back end or the contraction period. Imean, that's definitely what happened to our company we overcommitted in order to win the contract,and then we ended up with a lot of the losses. However, there are instances where the model works.It's just you know, I think you the model can work if you have a healthy competitive process, if you havean unhealthy race to the bottom is probably dangerous, dangerous territoryJim 09:23that can open up even getting into different ways of gaming. Bidding processes itself is a massive topic,I'm sure that gets into behavioral economics and how people bid and upsides and downsides andpsychology and all this other stuff. So we probably want to table that for a future episode because wecould spend hours just on that aspect of it. I'm sure. So, but I guess the conclusion is at some point inthe market, the bids got so tight in the market, the fees got compressed, so low that the people who arewinning the bids were just really behind the eight ball at the beginning. I mean, it was it was almost Iwant to say it was, you know, failure was baked into the to the process. But it sounds like you're in areally tight spot straight out of the gate. 4Transcribed by https://otter.aiRiccardo Cosentino 10:13That's correct. And it's not unlikely It's not unlike the, you know, bid low claim high model that westudied in, at Oxford, right, I think there was a case about how the it's, we live in an industry wherethere's a lot of, you know, contractors make their money through the claims. And then and I think that'swhere the PPP market got to where, you know, companies bid low in order to secure the contract, andthen then trying to deal with the consequences afterwards,Jim 10:46by claim process, you're talking going to court litigation,Riccardo Cosentino 10:50eventually. Yeah, that's where he ends up. I mean, you can try and settle. I mean, there are settlementalong the way that you can do there are but you know, ultimately, yeah, you go to court, and, you know,20 to 30 cents on the dollars if you're lucky when you play.Jim 11:05So that whole system sounded like from the day that they decided to race to the bottom of the wholesystem seems like it's building upon a weak foundation to start. And it's crumbling from there. I mean, ifyou're going to court to deal with inevitable complexity of a major program seems like somethingstarted wrong. I mean, it's not in it's not within the project itself, which obviously has its own complexityfrom a cost standpoint, engineering standpoint, and construction execution stakeholders, and then wehave this whole network of influencers within any major program. But this is like on top of that, this is awhole kind of external integration challenge. That, before you even get to the complexity of the project,you're kind of off off center to begin with that fair.Riccardo Cosentino 11:58That's, that's very fair. And, and but that's probably not something caused by the PPP structure or thenon recourse financing structure is more caused by, you know, public sector entity, especially beingsubjected to optimism bias and strategic misrepresentation in order to get these projects off the ground.And I think we PPP that problem is accentuated by the fact that there's a bit of heuristics, which is theprivate sector can do it better. So we don't have to develop the project to you know, 50% 60% design,in order to get to get bids in, we're gonna put out a 5% design, the private sector will take a developergive us a fixed price. And, and we'll go from there, which breeds a situation where you have contractorcommitting to a fixed price contract with only 15 20% design done. Because that's the nature of PPPwhere, you know, the government or the public sector doesn't want to develop the project, becausethey don't want to stifle the innovation that the private sector could bring. But on the other hand, theydon't really give a lot of opportunity to the private sector, to develop the design, to you know, 60 70%,which is what you need to have certainty, and then an ability to commit to a fixed price.Jim 13:28So are sort of back to that master, the opposite of the master builder heuristic. We're not planning longand or planning slow and building quickly, we're planning quickly and just accumulating delays and costoverruns. 5Transcribed by https://otter.aiRiccardo Cosentino 13:41Absolutely, absolutely. And then, you know, and you know, we seen this, because these projects are solong. And by the time that all the problems actually materialize, it's probably six, seven years down theline. So nobody worries about that at the beginning, and you will worry about that at the end. And youalways people somehow scratch their heads is that how do we get here, but pretty simple how we gothere.Jim 14:07So not to not to necessarily prompt a sales pitch for collaborative contracting. But how do you see orhow what did your research determine the benefits of collaborative contracting? We're, and then howlikely is it that it's going to become part of part of the industry?Riccardo Cosentino 14:31So my research was wasn't so much about collaborative contracting. So I took I took the benefit ofcollaborative contracting as a given and I said, you know, if collaborative contracting is such a goodway of delivering projects, How come is not used in PPP structures? What are the limiting factors thatdon't allow the implementation of collaborative contracting into PPP P. So my starting premises wascollaborative contracting is good. It is the way forward, and how do we how do we roll it out in differentparts of the industry?Jim 15:12Can we explore that just for a second? What is it about collaborative contract? And what benefits? Doyou believe that delivers to the industry?Riccardo Cosentino 15:21Well look, to me, just the fundamental principle that when you have collaborative contracting, youalmost you're almost waive your legal rights or your rights to pursue legal remedies. And so all of theparties are around the table. So the, you know, there are many advantages of collaborative contractcontracting, but the simplest one is, instead of hiring lawyer to sorting out disputes, you redeployingthose resources to actually solving project problems. So if you think of the litigation costs in thesemajor, major programs, if you just take those costs, and you were to use that financial resource toactually solve actual problems on the project, I mean, it doesn't take a lot of research to know thatanecdotally, that that's a good thing. Developed with all due respect to our attorney friends out there,your role may not best to be solving problems after the fact. Right? I mean, that's kind of the idea.Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, a claim against the client doesn't get concrete poured faster. Right. Okay.Fair point. You know, a few extra engineers and a few extra project resources could get that concretepoured faster, or figure out a way to pour the concrete faster.Jim 16:56Yeah, have the magic communications better to when you're not having to run it through attorneys andlegal filings?Riccardo Cosentino 17:02 6Transcribed by https://otter.aiYeah, I mean, I use I use that example. Because it's, you know, we just talked about claims we justtalked about, you know, ended up in court. So that's, that's the thing that comes to mind. But, you know,in general, I think we can all agree that a non antagonistic environment is more conducive to betterworking relation and better outputs. It's just anecdotally, we intuitively we can all see thatJim 17:34Sure.Riccardo Cosentino 17:35That we all want to work in a collaborative space, because, you know, when you bring the intellect ormultiple people together, and you foster that, you definitely want to get a better outcome.Jim 17:47Right, more rewarding toRiccardo Cosentino 17:48Yes. So that's, that's why I've took that I took it as a dogma, I said, collaborative contracting, is the rightway forward,Jim 17:58okay.Riccardo Cosentino 17:59So, okay, so why can we use that in PPP structures. And so, this is where it gets a little bit technical.Where, you know, PPP are really know nothing more than non recourse financing or project financing.That was it was a financing mechanism that was developed in the 70s. for oil exploration in the NorthSea, there weren't enough oil and gas company, there wasn't a big enough oil and gas company toabsorb the risk of oil exploration in the North Sea. So, they came together and came up with thestructure, which basically insulate the parent companies for the loss from the losses of the project. Andso, you know, if you take all exploration, and you lend him money into oil exploration Norh sea lenderscan only go after the asset to the oil platform or the future revenues associated with the asset. And thatbasically insulate the parent company for wo po things go really wrong,Jim 19:11but is there is there a completion guarantee built into this? I mean, the contractor can't just walk awaywithout recourse, can they?Riccardo Cosentino 19:18So, sorry, what I was describing is the is the is the structure or the client level? Yes.Jim 19:25Got it.Riccardo Cosentino 19:26 7Transcribed by https://otter.aiSo at the at the contractor level, yeah, absolutely the contractor. So that's what I was saying that inthese non recourse structures, the completion guarantee comes from the contractor. So ultimately, theback so although the project itself is non recourse, the contractor does put up guarantees becauseultimately the guarantees are in favor of the project sponsor and the project lenders right debt thatlenders, right? So the equity lenders is typically the developers, obviously they take equity risk, so Theyhave high amounts of risk or high amount of returns. So the first one, they get wiped out if the projectdoesn't do well. However, the debt lender has less, you know, these are big institution, they don't likerisk, they want to be insulated. So if the project was in to reach substantial completion, the contractorwould keep the lenders whole up to a point. And there's this is, this is why collaborative contracting isnot quite easy to implement in the structure, because the debt lenders always looking to recover themoney, right? And if the risk hasn't been transferred to a contractor, where the lender is going torecover the money for right,Jim 20:47where does it go, because it doesn't leave the project, just because nobody raised their hand to take it,it's not going away.Riccardo Cosentino 20:55So it's a Series is brought by non recourse financing PPP, these a zero sum games, where either thecontractor loses money, or the client loses money. And so that that creates the adversarial situation,especially if you haven't bid the job properly, you're going to be losing money, you're going aftersomebody because nobody likes to lose money, you're going to go after the client, and then theadversarial scenario sets in.Jim 21:24So the most important relationship, the most important relationship between the client and thecontractor for the project success is immediately set up on a weak foundation, like, yes. Okay. Thatexplains anything.Riccardo Cosentino 21:40And it will be, you know, is not impossibly, you could implement a collaborative contract between theclient and the contractor. However, the lenders need to get repaid, and the lender is only going to getrepaid when you reach substantial completion, you start extracting oil, you start selling the oil, and thatgenerates the revenues that are then used to repay the debt lenders, right? Yeah, so we couldimplement collaborative contract between the contractor and the project developer. However, in case ofcost overruns, the developer would pick up those costs. And because obviously, the lenders are still,you know, they still have debt service that you have to repay. And so somebody's got to pick up theircosts. And if he's not, there is not the contractor for a lump sum turnkey, then is the developer. Andhowever, that is not then becomes a more expensive structure, got a sense that you now have to putthe equity in. So now, it's very, very technical.Jim 22:55So maybe complex is that is that a good way to put it? 8Transcribed by https://otter.aiRiccardo Cosentino 22:59Is the well yes, complex, as actually complicated. It's very mechanical, there's no complex, it's theJim 23:07Swiss watch. It's not the flock of birds,Riccardo Cosentino 23:11which is basically, you know, when you inject equity, you know, when lenders lend you manage for aproject, that lenders lend you money for a project, they want to know that they're going to get paid back,right? And so they are going to look at the cost overruns. And they're going to look at who's going toabsorb the cost overruns. And so if the contractor is not going to pick up the cost overruns, becauseyou now have a relational contract in place, then the sponsor will, however, the sponsor has norecourse, there is no recourse to anybody above, right, typically, the contractor provides a parentcompany guarantee, and as the recourse to the parent company, but a developer because there's norecourse is not providing that they're there for they have to actually inject all of the equity upfront, rightto cover potential cost overruns. So you now have cash injected into the project, even though you mightnot need it, which makes it very, very expensive.Jim 24:08But you also have the benefit of big contingency.Riccardo Cosentino 24:11Absolutely. Absolutely. So, again, it's not is not impossible, this is just gets to the conclusion of mydissertation, which is it's possible to have relational contracting, it's going to be more expensive.However, the flip side, if we believe that collaborative Contracting is the way forward, you're going to bemore likely to finish on time and on budget, through collaboration that adversarial relations.Jim 24:38It's a funny, it's a funny perspective, to me having been involved in some complex projects, and itseems a little bit short sighted that somebody would really object to a 200 basis points or 2% increasein their cost of capital. Over massive cost overruns in the back end, huge attorney He's fees, delays,which we know costs money, I mean, time is actually money in a major program. So it's always justshocked me how everybody wants to bid to be as low as possible. Everybody wants to make sure thatthat interest rate is just as thin as they can possibly get it without giving any consideration to the factthat you're not saving anything. Because when you set up the program, that way, you're justguaranteed you're going to be over budget far more than you would ever save, and then add thelitigation on top of it that delays everything else. I mean, it just seems short sighted to me,Riccardo Cosentino 25:35unfortunately. So I'm, I specialize in public sector infrastructure. So I deal mostly with municipal, stateand federal government projects. And unfortunately, in the public sector, you have to demonstratevalue for money. And, you know, I think PPP is, it's particularly, the value for money analysis makesthings even worse, because what you end up now with is, private sector financing is more expensive inthe public sector financing a public, they know, the United States government can borrow at a cheaper 9Transcribed by https://otter.airate than any other corporation. So if you have a federal project, you're now adding, you know, 100 150bips to the cost to the cost of that because you have the private sector taken. So you now have a valuefor money analysis that already starts with you being in a hole. Because you now they Yeah, are goingto do it for a PPP are going to use private finance, but it's more expensive. So how do I balance thevalue for money? How do I justify that this is good value for money. And, you know, that's where youare starting play with risk transfer, you start quantify, the more risk you transfer, the more able you'regoing to be to show value for money, the lower the cost, the better because then again, you're going tobe able to show value for money. And as I said, The problem is that you're starting in a hole, right,because you already have to demonstrate why are using private finance. And then, and thencompound, the problem is, the way you justify private finance is by transferring risk, that are going totransfer more risks to the private sector are going to pay them more, you know, are going to pay theirhigher cost of capital. But that will bring me benefit because I have transferred to them the risk ofcompletion.Jim 27:37So you've got a, you've got a problematic paradigm may not be the it's a bit overused word, but you'vegot a problematic equation at the front end, which is creating some pretty significant adverseconsequences at the backend. Before you even get in to start talking about planning fallacy andstrategic misrepresentation. I mean, it, it sounds like the entrenched thought process behind howprojects should be evaluated, needs some work. And a fundamental understanding of the flaws in valuefor money might help. Because we know the results. I mean, there's plenty of data out there that showsI mean, independent of structure, how badly these projects perform. It's astronomical. But but it seemslike there's still some pretty heavy resistance to changing a perspective or methodology on the frontend to try to make up for some of that stuff. Is that fair?Riccardo Cosentino 28:35Yeah. I mean, you're also dealing with politicians right at this point. So it makes things even morecomplex. I think it's important that we talk about the I have other theory evidence, I guess it's furtherarea research, maybe for my PhD. But in my mind, PPP is our Chem, there is a role for PPP. So whenyou have low complexity projects, where you can actually define what you want, and you have very fewstakeholders. It's not it's not a bad model. So in Canada, various jurisdictions have had a lot of successwith hospital building, procuring them and building them using the PPP structure and as being as beingpositive as being a positive experience for all stakeholders. And this bill because it's a box, right, youbuilding a building, and it's any, you know, you can define what you want, and contractors are fairlyexperienced. And you know, it's a it's a Vertical Box. I think we're a falls apart where the PPP falls apartis when you have linear project and you start having more complexity in terms of many morestakeholders Many more moving parts in terms of you know, if you're building a railway, you now needto choose the technology, you go for different jurisdictions. And so the PPP, so having the privatesector lenders into a PPP structure creates more complexity, because he adds an additionalstakeholder and shareholder into the project. And it makes things a bit more complex, especially whenyou when you hit in problems.Jim 30:30 10Transcribed by https://otter.aiSo there's a every program has got a certain complexity threshold, that it cannot pass, it sounds like soif it's going to be, or if it's simple, from an engineering design perspective, single site, you know, squarepiece of property, whatever it can tolerate, and maybe even benefit from a certain addition ofcomplexity on top of, you know, in this case, the private sector provides access to resources thatmaybe the public sector doesn't have or can't appropriate. So the project can kind of hit that threshold.Whereas a complex project, just in the engineering and design side, may already be at that threshold orpast it. So adding another layer of financing complexity sounds disastrous,Riccardo Cosentino 31:18that's certainly the anecdotal evidence I have that especially so the way we differentiate is linear versusvertical. Right? When you have a linear project, yeah, the complexity is too high. And the benefit is,because you remember, the argument of bringing private sector lenders is that you have additionaloversight, you have an additional layer of oversight, you're going to use, the private sector lender isgoing to keep all the other stakeholder honest. So we're going to keep, let's say, the hospital ownerhonest, in terms of change order, they're not going to be able to halfway through the process, that issuechange order change in their mind, or what the scope of the project is, right? There's, you know, withthe with the design, build, finance, maintain and operate, you're actually maintaining the hospital for 30years. So you have now forced the Minister of Health to ring fence, the money required to maintain theproject for 30 years, because you're sending up a contract upfront, right. And if you if you know, publicsector, you know that the first thing the public sector cuts is operating budgets, right, so the PPP bringsbenefits. So the additional layer of complexity brought in by the private sector lenders iscounterbalanced by all these other benefits that a private sector lender brings in on a linear projectwhere the complexity is much higher, the benefits are outweighed by the negative of adding additionalcomplexity to something that cannot absorb it like you describe it very well.Jim 32:50So what conclusions did you draw from the research? I mean, PPP, the resistance to PPP,collaborative contracting, and PPP sounds fairly high. Yet the benefits seem fairly easy to argue. Andcertainly, anecdotally, we've got enough evidence where things don't work that you'd like to think afresh approach might be warmly received. But what are the impediments? What are the realistic optionsas they are today, relative to how successfullyRiccardo Cosentino 33:19I you know, can be my conclusion was pretty straightforward. It's actually it's the money issue, right? Imean, it's you, you could have collaborative contracting, it means equity has to take more risk. Andtherefore the project is going to be a little more expensive to finance because equity is taking more risk.However, if truly collaborative Contracting is the way forward and can actually deliver better on timeand on budget outcomes, then the additional cost of the private finance, to have collaboratedcontracting is, is insignificant. I haven't quantified it. But you know, you know, several basis points,compared to hundreds of millions of cost overruns. Yeah, I think if we were to do a back of theenvelope, we'll probably come to the conclusion that it's the cost benefit analysis, justify the additionalcost of financing,Jim 34:20 11Transcribed by https://otter.aiwhat's there, there's some and I'm going to get it wrong, but there's some colloquialism about steppingover dollars to pick up pennies kind ofRiccardo Cosentino 34:30Pound Foolish Pennywise PoundJim 34:32Foolish Yeah, the British the British version of the same sentiment. I keep having to remind myself thatwe went to went to graduate school in the UK, butRiccardo Cosentino 34:42yeah, so that's, you know, it'd be interesting it'd be a be interesting. The problem is PPP is a politicalbeast. I mean, the reason PPP was created, it's a political tool.Jim 34:55I mean, it to your point, it serves a purpose. It is a tool that has An application. But they the othercolloquial, I mean God, there's so many colloquialisms we could use. But if all you've got as a hammer,everything starts to look like a nail. I could go on, I'll spare the listeners, too many mixed metaphors andbad analogies. But the it sounds like your research is, or the conclusion is, it's got its place, it can bevery effective. But don't over rely on and the industry really should be open to a candid and evidencesupported discussion about alternatives.Riccardo Cosentino 35:32And it's admitting that to private finance, add an additional layer of complexity. And then the private Jimis that most practitioners don't understand complexity don't understand my major program is complexsystems. So it's not understood that you can't keep adding complexity and, and not not having negativeoutcome. Right, the more complexity you add, the more likely you have to have negative outcome, andadding a private sector lender is adding. So if you if you understand that, then you can manage andmitigate it. But if you don't even understand that private sector lending is additional complexity, thenthen you findJim 36:17that that may be the message or the beginning of the next research project or the next mission,understanding the level of complexity and how major programs are, in fact, complex adaptive systems,maybe we can take that step to your point, everything else will start to improve as well.Riccardo Cosentino 36:35So maybe we should start published, shared that complexity tool that we used complexity assessmenttool,Jim 36:46I'm sure Harvey Mahler would be thrilled if you would post a link to his research on complexity. Well,this has been fascinating. Riccardo, I certainly appreciate it. I've learned a lot. I really enjoyed readingyour research. I do think that there are opportunity. I mean, we've got enough evidence that the PPP is 12Transcribed by https://otter.aidon't work that well outside of some pretty specific application. So I think the work that you've done willcertainly push that conversation forward. And I, you know, I appreciate the opportunity to talk with youabout it.Riccardo Cosentino 37:21Thank you very much, Jim. And thanks for hosting the episode today. And hopefully, I'll have you backover guest in the foreseeable future.Jim 37:28That'd be great. I'd certainly appreciate the chance. Thank you.Riccardo Cosentino 37:32Thank you. That's it. For this episode, we'll navigate the major problems. I hope you found today'sconversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, pleaseconsider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue theconversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the nextepisode, where we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major programmanagement. Our next in depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such asleadership, risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's aconversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to navigate major problems. And Ilook forward to keeping the conversation going Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

This morning rant deals with God answering the deepest call of mankind. A why to be intimate with God his creator. Romans 3:23For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,Romans 7:24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.Luke 1:77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,2 Corinthians 6:2 for He says, “At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you.” Behold, now is “the acceptable time,” behold, now is “the day of salvation”—Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,Hebrews 2:15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.2 Timothy 1:9Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,Ephesians 2:5Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—Acts 4:12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”Acts 11:14He will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'Psalms 111:9He provided redemption for his people; he ordained his covenant forever— holy and awesome is his name.Ezekiel 36:29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.2 Corinthians 5:16-18So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:…Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/622a9079e8fb640012cb94f3. I pray that God would "give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18I, pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance" https://plus.acast.com/s/blueprint-of-faith. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to The House of Mario! The South Australian Nintendo podcast that is backed by a 120 Power Star Rating!G'day everyone! The House of Mario is back after an unexpected hiatus! I (Drew) am stoked to be back and can't wait to share my thoughts on The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom and how it helped me through one of the toughest moments of my life.House keeping - 00.10.46.20Where I've been and Zelda - 00.12.41.00Gaming 2023 backlog challenge - 00.41.10.16Guru geek out - 00.53.46.18So many games to be excited about - 01.03.22.05The doors are open! GURU GEEKOUTAvcon Anime & Video Game ConventionThe Pun RunnerLISTEN TO OTHER IDREWBY STUDIOS PODCASTSEncore At The House of Mario (The After Party Nintendo Podcast)A Drew Story (A Conversational Interview Podcast)Crackin' Furphys (Crackin' lies among true stories)FOLLOW ON TWITTERDrew: @iDrewbyTHOM: @TheHouseOfMarioSUPPORT IDREWBY STUDIOS CONTENTGain access to Secret Recordings & get your name in the credits all while helping Drew achieve his goal of making 1 working day a week free to create podcasts!Patreon.com/idrewbyWANNA START A PODCAST?Captivate. FM is the hosting platform Drew uses for all his podcasts. With simple yet powerful tools, an in-built marketing suite and plenty of tips to better your show, Drew believes this is the best podcast hosting platform on the internet! Use our Affilate link for a 1 week free trial and if you sign up you help support the show!INVITE TO THE HOUSE OF MARIO DISCORD COMMUNITY!Join the community to chat with awesome people like Mettadox, Ash, Luke, Jamie, Sam, Deejaayy, Delfino and others!Invitation to The House of Mario discord community

Sometimes it's hard to know who to believe, sometimes it isn't: Do you believe the person who has studied the finest details of physical health and wellness for upwards of a decade, or do you trust your pastor who thinks that God couldn't possibly reveal those secrets to anybody willing to test such principles? Unfortunately, that's the dichotomy we find in the world today. Christian Nationalists have actively led the crusade against medicine for most of the last two centuries, but there's some interesting nuances among the more moderate groups that we're happy to explore with you this week. Hospitals were a Christian invention, so why do so many distrust them? Maybe part of the problem is that most of our history has us going to our priests/shamans/knowledge holders to get healed....President Richard Nixon was the subject of a lot of satire. Relative to his predecessors, he's an outlier in many ways, not least of all was his membership in the Quaker community. This informed his decision to protect parents from legal repercussions for medical neglect. We also have some data from Pew Research Center that makes a lot of religious groups look bad, relative to vaccine hesitancy.Unleavened Bread Ministries has taken the lives of several children in the name of being "Pure Blood," including 11-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann, who simply needed a regular insulin supplement for diabetes. So many people are calling vaccines a secret poison masquerading as a cure, if only they read their Bibles (Mark 16:18).The faithful among "Jehovah's Witnesses" avoid blood transfusions, the Amish avoid heart transplants, and "Christian Scientists" typically avoid medicine in all its forms. Muslims avoid medical products derived from swine, and Hindus tend to avoid medical products derived from any animals. Interestingly enough, Seventh-Day Adventists still run hospitals, and the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a retired heart surgeon.We dive deep into the story of Doctor PP Quimby and Mary Baker Eddy, and how mesmerism burrowed into the "Science of Health."From Tim Minchin's “Storm”: "Alternative medicine… Has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine." Watch  Dr. Glen Fairen's discussion of COVID-19 vaccines and the Apocalypse on YouTube Support us at Patreon and SpreadshirtJoin the Community on DiscordLearn more great religion facts on Facebook and Instagram Episode TranscriptKatie Dooley  00:12Hi, everyone. My name is Katie. Preston Meyer  00:14Hi, Katie. I'm Preston.Katie Dooley  00:18And this is.Both Hosts  00:19The Holy Watermelon podcast,Katie Dooley  00:22I thought an intro would be like an introduction. Would be nice. Occasionally.Preston Meyer  00:27All they know is our names. We haven't described who we are and why we're here.Katie Dooley  00:32Oh, I got to go back to the trailer for that.Preston Meyer  00:35Should we introduced ourselves a little more often?Katie Dooley  00:37probably. Join our Discord. I mean, sure. It's the end of January 2023 Already, which blows my mind. Preston Meyer  00:49We've been doing this for a couple of years.Katie Dooley  00:50Couple years. I'm a resident atheist.Preston Meyer  00:54And I'm a Christian and graduate in this exact field of studies Katie Dooley  00:59and an all-around great guy.Preston Meyer  01:00Thanks. I am glad you think so. You're pretty good for an atheist too. Most atheists are better than most Christians.Katie Dooley  01:11Oh, wow. Preston Meyer  01:12Wow. Okay, that that could be an exaggeration, but probably not by a lot. Katie Dooley  01:15You know one reason atheists tend to be better than Christians is that they don't just let their children die in the name of the Lord.Preston Meyer  01:22That specific detail is true.Katie Dooley  01:28Wow I just said it. Today we're talking about religion and medicine, and how religion and religious beliefs affect your belief of science.Preston Meyer  01:39Yeah, man, what a roller coaster. There's some interesting things we've been able to uncover. And definitely lots of bad news, which we cannot cover every news story that falls into this category. Of course,Katie Dooley  01:55there were some, there were some really sad ones.Preston Meyer  01:58But yeah, generally, problems have come up.Katie Dooley  02:02Yeah. Which is so weird. Because historically, the hospital system as we know, it is a Christian invention.Preston Meyer  02:10Yeah. Hospitality. And I mean, even the word that we have for hotels now, all of that this is, comes from the need to take care of people who don't have somewhere else to be, especially the people who straight up can't take care of themselves at all.Katie Dooley  02:28Yeah, so the first hospitals were kind of an amalgamation of both hospitals as we know them, but also hostels and food banks and or soup kitchens, and yeah they just take care of everyone that couldn't. That needs some extra help. And then obviously, we started segregating those things. And a lot of healers, or medical people were priests to begin with.Preston Meyer  02:53Well, anciently, if we look at the biblical tradition, and this was pretty standard for most societies around the world, your healers, your medical practitioners, were the priesthood. Those are the people that could read who were keeping notes on things that worked and didn't work.Katie Dooley  03:12Because they could also write Preston Meyer  03:13Yeah,Katie Dooley  03:13most people couldn't. Preston Meyer  03:14Yeah. Yeah. The the craft of literacy and, and writing was all practically magic to the layperson.Katie Dooley  03:24Yeah. So then things somewhere along the way, went horribly wrong.Preston Meyer  03:30They sure did. Katie Dooley  03:32Yeah. So there's a lot of Christian groups that and I mean, Preston I'll get your hot take on this. But there are science deniers, and I know a lot of that stems from having to reconcile evolution with what's written in the Bible. So it feels like they just are like, Well, science isn't real, because how can Noah work then? Good enough. So they deny science. And then by extension, things like medicine, and most recently, with the pandemic, things like vaccines are being denied for their efficacy.Preston Meyer  04:08Imagine this just for a moment. Katie Dooley  04:10Okay?Preston Meyer  04:11Do you you live on this planet? Katie Dooley  04:14I do. I don't need to imagine that kay.   No, I don't like that.Preston Meyer  04:16So far, you're with me, right? All right. Now imagine going through life, not ever being able to predict the outcome of any action ever.  No, that's absolute nonsense. You know that when you put one foot in front of the next one, it's going to meet the ground that you can see, and that as you shift your weight, you can propel yourself forward. That's science.Katie Dooley  04:45That just reminded me of a really bad joke.Preston Meyer  04:48If you're going to pour yourself a glass of water, that's science. We have reliably proven that the exercises to accomplish these tasks work.Katie Dooley  05:00Yeah. And I mean, we can go go back to our early episodes, but there was a time when things couldn't be proven. So we use religion to prove themPreston Meyer  05:11All kinds of fancy hypotheses for all sorts of things we didn't understand. And then we studied them,Katie Dooley  05:17Then we figured it out which is awesome. But yeah, but would I be right to say that a lot of this anti science comes from trying to reconcile the Bible that if you're a fundamentalist and believe is true to the word, even though there are stories we know are not true stories, then you have to cut out science?Preston Meyer  05:32You don't have toKatie Dooley  05:35But then how did Noah work if you have science?! It doesn't!Preston Meyer  05:41Yeah, things get complicated when you try and make stories that are primarily symbolic.Katie Dooley  05:48Doesn't work.So if you do the literal truth, then we Yeah,Preston Meyer  05:54you're gonna have a hard time.  Yeah. And so it's weird that the and this is definitely throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you're just Oh, science disproves this one thing that I believe really strongly, really effectively, then I'm gonna have to stop believing literally everything under the banner of science. Weird choice.Katie Dooley  05:55Gonna have a hard time. You think so? But again, a lot of people let their kid die over this. So  Yeah, we found a whole bunch of Christian denominations that do this. The followers of Christ in the early 2000s, this group had a child mortality rate 10 times higher than the state average of where they were located, which was the state of Idaho, because they liked faith heailings... Preston Meyer  06:25yeah.  Yeah,Katie Dooley  06:46instead of real doctors. Preston Meyer  06:48Yeah,Katie Dooley  06:49one thing that was also really terrifying that I guess benefited, benefited the followers of Christ. Also, we're going to talk about Christian scientists later also benefited Christian scientists, is that President Nixon actually made a ruling that required states to pass exemptions to child medical treatment based off of a religious exemption. So basically, parents couldn't go to jail if their child died, because they made a medical choice based off of their religion, so you can charge them with like, neglect, or murder. So that was really cool.Preston Meyer  07:24So I'm fully on board with the whole the government won't impose laws on what you believe. But the government has an awful lot of laws on how you can act in our shared society. And our actions are founded on the things that we believe about the world around us. So we need to convince people to change their beliefs.Katie Dooley  07:49Well, you know, comes back we've done a lot of episodes on this everything from our parody religions episode to atheism, and Satanism of like, that's great that you want to kill your kid but like, I can't just like make up a rule for religious religious exemption. Preston Meyer  08:05Right.Katie Dooley  08:06Right. If we can just do things because we say but I'm religious like it would, everything would become chaos.Preston Meyer  08:12You just gotta stop telling the government you're an atheist. And then you get all kinds of fancy freedom. Katie Dooley  08:17Cool. Okay, well, I believe in Russell's teapot and Russell's teapot tells me I get to be naked 24/7 in public, so I cannot go to jail for public indecency. Like, you can't just do that Preston.Preston Meyer  08:31That depends where you live.Katie Dooley  08:35I mean, I knowPreston Meyer  08:36I mean, full nude still prohibited in most places, butKatie Dooley  08:40Handful of nude beaches you can go toPreston Meyer  08:41but you can be fully topless in most parts of Canada. I mean, we also have the weather that discourages thatKatie Dooley  08:51like right now, right but you just can't have your wiener hanging out Preston.Preston Meyer  08:56Noo.Katie Dooley  08:58And you can't... You know, if everyone just said, Well, it's because I'm religious.Preston Meyer  09:03Well, though, okay. We do know that members of the clergy have definitely been caught with their wiener in places where it does not belong and get away with it because they claim religiousness. There had been way too many times where somebody who has been a pastor for a while diddled a couple of kids went, went to court and got a reduced sentence because he's a man of faith. When clearly his actions say he's notKatie Dooley  09:37anyway, we just hopped on a soapbox for a minute there. This was eventually repealed in 1983, which I guess is good, but it was around for a while where you couldn't go to jail if you killed your kid. So A+ President Nixon,Preston Meyer  09:53right. Yeah, that was that was interesting. Christian Nationalism is a little bit of a problem.Katie Dooley  10:01Yeah. I mean, you were on I was just remembering the other day you were on a podcast talking about some of this stuff progressive versus... Preston Meyer  10:08Yeah...Katie Dooley  10:08Not progressive Christianity.Preston Meyer  10:12Yeah, it was a little while ago now, actually. But it was good time.Katie Dooley  10:15I'm the villain. Preston Meyer  10:17Yeah,Katie Dooley  10:17check out Preston. Preston Meyer  10:18Man that was... it feels like so long ago.Katie Dooley  10:22Yeah, real scary stuff, especially when it came to the pandemic.Preston Meyer  10:27Yeah, I mean, Christian Nationalism has been a problem in North America for almost a century. But things got really weird over the COVID crisis, and all kinds of people shouting about their rights to avoid this poison. I want to get a little bit more into that later. But it's just crazy that 45% of white evangelical adults said they would not be vaccinated. That is a staggeringly large number. And this idea is not just in like a couple of weird little nationalist groups, either it had spread through a lot of Christianity. But the nationalists got really gross about it.Katie Dooley  11:15And like bizarre about it, one of the articles I read that Christian nationalists have said that the vaccine is the mark of the beast, as prophesized in the Revelation of John, because it prevented people from buying and selling, air quotes, "without the mark".Preston Meyer  11:33Yeah. Our recent guest, Dr. Glenn Farron has shown up in other shows, examining this exact phenomenon, it's really fascinating.Katie Dooley  11:44And terrifying. Preston Meyer  11:45Yeah, it's weird. Katie Dooley  11:47Okay, as because we introduced ourselves as our resident Christian, why do you think it's taken such a hold on Christianity,Preston Meyer  11:54we have this frustrating problem where there's been this prediction of a whole bunch of signs that will mark the coming of the Savior. And it's been many, many centuries, where it's kind of been a building tension. We've got all kinds of apocalyptical groups popping up more and more recently, but they've been around for a while. And when we see anything that can fit into that framework that's built to be a thing of interpretation, rather than a one for one obvious comparison kind of deal as something that people really latch on to. And so when you see this part in the scripture that says, without this mark, you won't get to participate in the economic part of society, then you, you fear that maybe this is a parallel to what is happening with oh, you need your COVID passport to go into a store. Instead of recognizing, oh, I have a civil responsibility to do my best to take care of the people around me. And that's why I'm being shunned. But because I don't want to help out. It's so much more fun. And self aggrandizing to see everyone else as the villain, rather than admit that you're the one causing harm. That's the problem.Katie Dooley  13:24Mormons believe in the Second Coming, yeah? Preston Meyer  13:27Yeah.Katie Dooley  13:27Okay. Is there any piece of this, that's like, people wanting it to happen? Preston Meyer  13:32Oh for sure!Katie Dooley  13:33Yeah?Preston Meyer  13:34Absolutely.Katie Dooley  13:35They just want to be on the bleeding edge. So Jesus takes them up.  Preston Meyer  13:40Yeah.Katie Dooley  13:40With themPreston Meyer  13:41Yeah.Katie Dooley  13:42They don't want to be wrong. Preston Meyer  13:43Hey?Katie Dooley  13:43They don't want to be wrong. They don't want to take the mark of the beast, and then Jesus will be like, No, sorry.Preston Meyer  13:48Yeah, you don't want to do anything wrong. Because what if this is the end? What if this is the trial, I don't want to fail.Katie Dooley  13:55Okay.Preston Meyer  13:56I need to be as faithful as I possibly can. Even if that means I've screwed up. It's okay to make mistakes, you're forgiven for mistakes, as long as they're genuine mistakes, and not me skipping out on opportunities to be better. But I mean, all it takes is a little bit of extra thinking.Katie Dooley  14:19It just anyway, goes back to love your neighbor. We've talked about this a lot this month, actually.Preston Meyer  14:25And so many people have a hard time realizing that that's the number one thing. Jesus wasn't ambiguous about this. But it's hard to love your neighbor sometimes. Especially if your neighbor is anti-Vaxxer.Katie Dooley  14:44You know, I realized during this podcast, I like Jesus a lot more now and Christianity a lot less. Preston Meyer  14:50Yeah.Katie Dooley  14:51Like if you asked me three years ago, if I like Jesus would be like, like, like, no, like, I don't know, but I actually kind of think he's a cool guy.Preston Meyer  14:58I appreciate that you have, in your head, separated the man from the fan club.Katie Dooley  15:02Yeah. And the the more I learned, the more they're getting very separate in my head.Preston Meyer  15:07They are very very different I mean, yeah, there's more than one fan club, most of the fan clubs suck.Katie Dooley  15:15So what we should do is start our own fan club! I am kidding, that doesn't solve the issue.Preston Meyer  15:19What more parties?!?Katie Dooley  15:24more denomination Okay. In the United States religious conservatism, including the evangelical and born again Christianity movement is associated with lower levels of trust in science, rates of vaccine vaccine uptake, vaccine knowledge and higher levels of vaccine hesitancy.Preston Meyer  15:44Yeah, research has found that religiosity is negatively associated with plans to receive the COVID vaccine, which is a huge bummer. And one religious worldview, especially hostile to science and vaccines is the Christian nationalism movement. It's caused a fair bit of problems, distrusting the government is fair to to a degree. So not the same thing that sees a rebellion a whole year ago, or a couple of years ago now, January 6. But, you know, funKatie Dooley  16:24Is it fun? One of these groups I found and just because they came up in the news for killing a child, and I put an asterick Preston I will let you guide me on how much we actually talked about this group was the unleavened bread ministries, and I'm big Asterix in our show notes. They say, I barely want to give this man any attention, because he's fucking crazy.Preston Meyer  16:46I mean, that's fair.Katie Dooley  16:48So I'll probably just not say the pastor's name.Preston Meyer  16:51I think that's the right way.Katie Dooley  16:52So in 2008, an 11-year-old girl, Madeline Cara Newman died of diabetes complications that were very manageable, and very treatable. She literally just needed some insulin, which is really sad, but instead her parents opted for prayer.Preston Meyer  17:11Yeah, it's not the only headline, but it happens. And I don't know why people want to deny that, medicine is a gift. If you believe that God gives us all the good things, and we've studied the universe to understand creation, which is the way a lot of religions do look at it. Knowing that, oh, now that we know more about this thing, we can help people. Why not jump on that?Katie Dooley  17:42So we're, so her parents were part of this Unleavened Bread Ministries, and so I decided to go to their website. I really hope I'm not retargeted for anything, because that was something that was not pleasant. You can tune into their radio. 24/7 they actually say tune into our radio channel, 24/7 Which implies they want you to listen to it 24/7.  Not that it's on 24/7, which was scary.Preston Meyer  18:09I mean, that's how you get your ad revenue. Right?  I think if you were to listen to us 24/7 right nowKatie Dooley  18:13I guess so. You should listen to the Holy Watermelon podcast 24/7  you just have five daysPreston Meyer  18:23Yeah, just couple of days of content, and then you're on repeat. Katie Dooley  18:28That's fine.Preston Meyer  18:28I mean, Katie Dooley  18:29I'm okay with it.Preston Meyer  18:30You know, maybe some people would be better for it.Katie Dooley  18:32So basically, this pastor tells to pray away COVID and others other diseases, but he also recommended Ivermectin and hydro hydro ox so Chloroquine hydro- Preston Meyer  18:47hydroxychloroquine?Katie Dooley  18:48that one that makes you go blind or whatever, as well which was insanity. To me, it's like you should pray but if you don't feel like praying, take something that will kill you. Preston Meyer  18:58The vaccine is poison, butKatie Dooley  19:01Ivermectin is totally fine...Preston Meyer  19:04So-Katie Dooley  19:05So I have in my notes I wrote "not sure if grifter or cult leader"Preston Meyer  19:10it's, it's problematic. What's interesting to me, is there is a reasonably common belief among these Christian extremists, let's call them what they are, that the vaccine is poison. And I've heard several times that all these people who took the vaccine they're gonna be dead in five years or less.Katie Dooley  19:35Did you see this quote? "Fully vaccinated people-" this is from the pastor again, his name I won't say fully, "vaccinated people are now suffering from what looks like the Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, better known as AIDS. Their immune system is fading as many have warned." so both Preston and I apparently have AIDS.Preston Meyer  19:54Apparently.Katie Dooley  19:57Most of our friends also apparently have AIDS.Preston Meyer  20:01Yeah. So what I was getting to this idea that this vaccine is poison. And remember, the vast majority of us are taking the vaccine to either protect ourselves, or to protect the people around us because we care about them. So they're here. Here's a passage from Mark chapter 16. Gospel of Mark, it's Jesus speaking, it's after he's been resurrected, he's teaching the remaining apostles because Judas is gone. He's not with them. And he says, Those who believe in Me will be able to drink poison without being hurt. I mean, there's a bit about snakes in there, there's, there's all kinds of little bits I skipped. But I added the beginning and the end together to give you the good bit, that if you believe, and if you do actually believe you want to help your neighbors and protect them, then it sounds like the Lord says, You got nothing to fear from this vaccine. Katie Dooley  21:00Yeah, well. Preston Meyer  21:03But to be fair, that is a personal interpretation of Scripture, that is at least as valid as the opposing argument.Katie Dooley  21:18So one of the arguments I wrote in, in these, nothing short of crazy articles was that, and this kind of goes back to the Nixon thing is that some of these groups have argued like, well, if a doctor, someone dies under a doctor's watch, the doctor doesn't get charged. So just because we weren't successful in our prayer circle, doesn't mean we should be charged.  Oh Preston... Preston's face is gold right now.Preston Meyer  21:47So while it's very tricky to charge a doctor- Katie Dooley  21:54Unless it's malpractice.Preston Meyer  21:55Right, and it's very tricky to sue a doctor, they have training to do the things that are they're expected to do. And the rest of us are told with, I would say, a close to equivalent value of repetition of take your people to a doctor. So when we fail step one of the process to not even give the doctor a chance to screw up or do the great thing that we need. Wit and it's usually a success, that is neglect. And I would say in an awful lot of situations a criminal neglect.Katie Dooley  22:38I just had a weird thought- Preston Meyer  22:39Yeah?Katie Dooley  22:40that's not in our notes. America in particular, and I mean, Canada, to some extent, as well, prides itself on being a Christian nation. Preston Meyer  22:50YupKatie Dooley  22:51Christianity started the first hospitals to help people. Yeah, that couldn't help themselves. And America doesn't have free health care.Preston Meyer  23:00NopeKatie Dooley  23:01Those things don't all go together, do they? Preston Meyer  23:03No, they don't.Katie Dooley  23:04Okay.Preston Meyer  23:06It sounds like you understand perfectly.Katie Dooley  23:09I do, I do. I understand the pieces, but the why? I am perplexed by because Jesus would have wanted public health care.Preston Meyer  23:20So we've already talked about the prosperity gospel-Katie Dooley  23:22we have,Preston Meyer  23:23and nothing on this planet is more American than publi-Katie Dooley  23:28Grifting!Preston Meyer  23:29Than grifting! Yeah! Maybe the the next best thing would be mass extermination, which I mean, is connected to this in some sort of way.Katie Dooley  23:45All right. Well, I feel like we're being very critical today. ButPreston Meyer  23:50sometimes you got to be and that it comes with the territory and today's subject. Katie Dooley  23:56Totally. Then there are groups that have very specific rules around medicine. Not necessarily, these sort of broad-Preston Meyer  23:57Yeah,Katie Dooley  23:59don't believe in science.Preston Meyer  24:05A lot of groups generally like the idea of science. Oh, yeah, I guess this thing has been proven. Let's go with it. With exceptions.Katie Dooley  24:14So there's the Jehovah Witnesses are almost famous for it, they do not accept blood transfusions. So overall, they're pretty cool with medicine and science, unless you need a blood transfusion.Preston Meyer  24:28Yeah, Prince was a pretty well-known star, and almost as well known that he was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. And he had some wicked hip pain for a long time. And it is speculated hard to confirm things now that he's gone, that it took him a while to get the hip surgery he needed, because hip surgery almost always comes with a major blood transfusion. Cuz, you know, open up pretty high traffic area in the body. Katie Dooley  25:04Yeah.Preston Meyer  25:05And so it's a big problem. So it's generally discouraged that because of the blood transfusion hip surgery is a tricky thing to try to navigate as a Jehovah's Witness.Katie Dooley  25:15Yeah, I, this is ages ago, and I didn't find them for this. And we'll do a full episode on Jehovah Witnesses one day, but the number of parents that when their kid needs a blood transfusion, start to question their faith prettyPreston Meyer  25:32it's a healthy perspective.Katie Dooley  25:34Totally! But it's interesting, like, I didn't pull up blood transfusion statistics, but especially probably before 50 Most people do not need a blood transfusion unless you're, you know, touch wood in a car accident or something. But I'm learning a blood transfusion and presume you never need a blood transfusion. So it's pretty easy to be like, oh, yeah, fine. I cannot accept someone else's blood until you need to accept someone else's blood. Preston Meyer  25:59Right? Well, and I think it's really interesting that I've, I've heard stories of people who say that after a blood transfusion, my brother-sister-loved one is just a totally different person. And so obviously, it's because the spirits in the blood, and that's now, now they are a different person. The weird thing about that is they totally ignore the possibility that a incident that requires a blood transfusion is a life changing experience! He's probably traumatized. It's things like cancer and major accidents, while recognizing your own mortality. Sometimes it's all it takes to really change how you want to deal with the world around you. It's a weird thing to hear people say, but I mean, the facts are the facts. They behave differently. Sure, fine. Or maybe you're reading more into it than is real, and they haven't changed as much as you think. But you expect them to be different because there's this idea of a different soul in the body. Katie Dooley  27:02Sounds like...Preston Meyer  27:03it's a spectrum. I can't say that it's all one thing or all the other, but I bet you it's a mix of the twoKatie Dooley  27:09Totally. So there's three Bible passages that Jehovah's Witnesses cite for not accepting blood transfusions, so I'm gonna read them so we can get Preston's hot take on themPreston Meyer  27:19PerfectKatie Dooley  27:19first- and who knows how-Preston Meyer  27:20I like it. Katie Dooley  27:21So Genesis nine "for you shall not eat flesh with its life. That is, its blood."Preston Meyer  27:28All right. So part of the context that we have here is, this is a document of how the Lord's people should be different than their neighbours. What makes them different. A lot of the people around them their neighbours, would ritually consume blood.Katie Dooley  27:48That's blood in the mouth?Preston Meyer  27:50Yes, eating blood.Katie Dooley  27:52I think we need that to be clear.Preston Meyer  27:54I have eaten blood, or a blood adjacent substance, on a, on a few occasions. It is delicious.Katie Dooley  28:06As someone who enjoys a good black pudding, yes. I prefer white pudding though, which doesn't have the blood. But I won't say no to the black pudding. Preston Meyer  28:14Right. So you can take my interpretation of this however you want, I suppose. I don't think that there is a spiritual reason. I think this is more of a this separates the people of Israel from their neighbours. Just another way to mark that we are different from them kind of deal. Katie Dooley  28:35All right.Preston Meyer  28:36And I mean building an us versus them philosophy isn't the healthiest choice. But here we are.Katie Dooley  28:43In Genesis, what makes a Jewish person a Jewish person, right?Preston Meyer  28:46I mean, that's really what Genesis and the tour of the Tanakh are all about.Katie Dooley  28:51Alright, so the next one is Leviticus 17:10. "If anyone of the house of Israel or of the aliens who reside among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut that person off from the people." Preston Meyer  29:07So-Katie Dooley  29:08that God speaking? Preston Meyer  29:09Yeah.Katie Dooley  29:09Wow.Preston Meyer  29:10So the short version of this is, if this person insists on eating blood, they will be excommunicated. Or exiled, depending on whether or not the church has a monopoly on national politics. Excommunicated if they're out in an area that's diverse like ours, exiled from the nation if you have a monopoly.Katie Dooley  29:37And again, this is blood in the mouth?Preston Meyer  29:39Yes. Do not eat bloodKatie Dooley  29:41Okay, because this is where I-Preston Meyer  29:43and it doesn't actually mean human blood. Cannibalism is an entirely separate law. This is don't eat the blood of the cattle and the livestock and the pigeons and everything else that you bring in for sacrifices,Katie Dooley  29:57Right, which is part of the kosher process. Preston Meyer  29:59Yeah.Katie Dooley  30:00That seems super fun. Acts 15:28 to 29. "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials. That you have seen from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourself from these, you will do well. Farewell."Preston Meyer  30:22I mean, I like having such a short list very convenient. Don't eat things that are sacrificed to false gods. Easy. Generally speaking, though, there are other parts where Paul does specifically say you know what? It's okay to eat something sacrificed to idols, if that's all there is to eat. Just remember, the gods aren't real. But be grateful that you have something to eat. So, even in these essentials- Katie Dooley  30:55There's still an asterisk!Preston Meyer  30:56There's an asterisk yeah. But again, don't eat blood is still on the list.Katie Dooley  31:03So again, blood in the mouth. Preston Meyer  31:05Yes. Do not eat from these animals that you need. And then of course, there's don't eat anything that's been strangled. WhichKatie Dooley  31:19the meat would be tough.Preston Meyer  31:22It's better to quick kill rather than choke. Because then it's got fight in it.Katie Dooley  31:27Yeah. All the muscles not-Preston Meyer  31:29Yeah.Katie Dooley  31:30I'm gonna be plugged meat. And then don't have sex.Preston Meyer  31:35Which Yeah, totally unrelated to the previous three things. While fornication isn't just sex, fornication is extramarital sex.Katie Dooley  31:45Oh, specific.Preston Meyer  31:46Yeah, fornication is dirty sex. I it's, it's specifically that sex which is unapproved by society.Katie Dooley  31:55Well, wait till next episode.Preston Meyer  32:00Yeah, we'll get a little more details there for you. But yeah, so in Old and New Testament for the Christians who are super concerned about it. That's the deal, is that you should not EAT ANIMAL BLOOD.Katie Dooley  32:15So they don't let you take any blood. Even if it's not in your mouth.Preston Meyer  32:21Yeah, life-saving apparently not that big a deal. If it's your time to go. It's your time to go kind of philosophy. Which sucks if you could have survived with the tools available to you.Katie Dooley  32:32Now there are bloodless surgeries and blood alternatives.Preston Meyer  32:40Which sounds really weird. Katie Dooley  32:42I mean, I'm kind of that person. Like, if you can have the real thing. Why wouldn't you have the real thing? Like if you're not allergic to milk? Or lactose intolerant. Why would you squeeze the shit out of an almond?Preston Meyer  32:54Right?!?Katie Dooley  32:56Like, you know, and I mean, I get lactose intolerance is a thing. Don't get me wrong.Preston Meyer  33:02I'm lactose intolerant. I have- Katie Dooley  33:04I didn't know that!Preston Meyer  33:05way more dairy in my diet than I should.Katie Dooley  33:10The fact that I didn't know that you're lactose intolerant until this moment tells you that you do.Preston Meyer  33:15I'm lactose-sensitive, not lactose intolerant. I correct that there are times when I am way more sensitive than at other times. The night before I got married. Katie Dooley  33:28Ohno, ohno!Preston Meyer  33:29We stopped at one of the great drive-throughs and got the classic, real good, absolutely delicious milkshake. And I was ruined by the time...Katie Dooley  33:41Ohhh you, noooo!Preston Meyer  33:45So everyone else is setting up the chapel for decorations and the tables and everything. And I was just camped out somewhere else. But this week, I've gone through a whole litre of eggnog and plenty of milk and no issues. Katie Dooley  34:04All right, well. So yeah, I mean, I guess like I said before, it's great to say you don't accept a blood transfusion until you're one of the 4.5 million people a year in North America that needs one.Preston Meyer  34:16I'm curious because I haven't been able to find anything. And maybe I just need to talk to somebody who's got specific religious authority to make such a declaration, how they might feel higher up among the witnesses about synthetic blood. I don't know how they'll feel about that.Katie Dooley  34:38Members that willingly and knowingly accept blood transfusions are often disfellowshipped. And generally, like I said, they when witnesses are encouraged for medical help other than this weird blood thing, which I feel like they haven't run by God ever but what do I know?Preston Meyer  34:54Right. And a similar limitation for some reason the Amish and some other Mennonites but not all Mennonites believe that the spirit specifically lives in the heart. And you know, if you're watching a movie and you get to a real emotional part and you feel a twinge in your heart, I can see why they might come to that conclusion. Katie Dooley  35:18When you see your husband who I haven't seen in three weeks!Preston Meyer  35:22Right?! When you feel that in your chest, it does make sense that you can believe your spirit resides in or near your heart fine. Feels a little bit weird, but I get it. So specifically, the Amish, while they have a tricky relationship with modern medicine, they do specifically avoid anything that would be even close to a heart transplant, because that's the soul. And yet, there's sometimes exceptions to that...Katie Dooley  35:55Asterisk! It's a spectrum!Preston Meyer  35:59Yeah. There have been children who have been born with heart defects that are so severe that before baptism, because as an Anabaptist, you are baptized later in life instead of as a child. Like in the Catholic tradition. They are okay with a heart transplant in a young child... sometimes.Katie Dooley  36:23Asterisk. I was born with a hole in my heart, maybe that's why I'm an atheist.Preston Meyer  36:28Is it a Jesus-shaped hole in your heart?Katie Dooley  36:29I don't... I don't know. I, that was 32 years ago.Preston Meyer  36:35Is the hole still there?Katie Dooley  36:36No it healed up.Preston Meyer  36:37It just healed up? Katie Dooley  36:38Yep. Sometimes they heal up on their own. Sometimes they need surgery to make the switch.Preston Meyer  36:41Well see that's the weird thing about making people from a clump of cells is that when you're born, you still got a lot of growing to do.Katie Dooley  36:51So apparently, I looked into this like a million years ago, apparently, like when you're born and finally get oxygen. It is supposed to just like happen. The chambers in your heart close up to what they're supposed to be and mine didn't.Preston Meyer  37:03huh!Katie Dooley  37:04Yeah!Preston Meyer  37:05So that's the thing I don't know much about. But that is cool.Katie Dooley  37:08Yeah. Science!Preston Meyer  37:10Check out our bonus episode on abortion!  right. It's, it's weird how many churches insist that the Bible says that a baby is a murderable person, before they're born, when the Bible was pretty clear on the detail of, "And he breathed and became a living soul." Now, you're allowed to take that symbolically. But when you do that, you no longer have the Bible backing you up when you say that a baby is alive from conception, or from six months in or whatever. Whatever your arbitrary time is. The Bible doesn't have your back, for any point before birth! Yeah, we get into a lot more detail there!Katie Dooley  37:51The next one we're going to talk about are Christian scientists or the Church of Christ, comma scientists is their official name. Preston Meyer  38:08This, this group-Katie Dooley  38:10and guess what Preston they hate science.Preston Meyer  38:14So this, I've run into a couple of these people over the years that we've got a Christian Science Center downtown. And I've been trying to figure out for a while, how they can get away with feeling comfortable using the word science, and that they call themselves scientists, and absolutely deny the scientific method! The scientific collection of knowledge that we've amassed. I don't get it. Katie Dooley  38:51We will eventually. Again, just like Jehovah's Witnesses we will do a full episode on Christian scientists at some point, but we're just gonna dive into the medical stuff for today's episode.  The Church of Christ scientists was founded by Mary Baker Eddy in the 19th century. And it can actually be traced back. For more if you remember our last episode to Phineas Quimby, the mesmerist!!Preston Meyer  39:00Yeah.  Yeah, so she was a patient of his! Katie Dooley  39:18Oh, cool!Preston Meyer  39:19Yeah! So that's where this connection comes in. So I did a little bit of more research on this Quimby fella and oh what a trip! So oh...Katie Dooley  39:31so Phineas Quimby... I'll let you read your your research but finance can be started that new thought movement which turned also into the prosperity gospel that name it and claim itPreston Meyer  39:41Yeah, Dr. PP Quimby which I didn't make up to make this humorous. This is how he styled himselfKatie Dooley  39:52This is amazing! And I love that we both are so mature that we can just laugh at Dr. PP!Preston Meyer  39:58I'm not sure he was a real Dr.Katie Dooley  40:01WHAT?!?Preston Meyer  40:02I mean, as you learn more about this fella, you'll see why that could have been a problem.   But Dr. Phineas PP. Quimby was a clockmaker. You don't need a doctorate to be a clockmaker-Katie Dooley  40:09Yes.  No you don't to be a clockmakerPreston Meyer  40:21I mean, you do need tools. Yeah, for sure. And he was convinced that he had found the key to the science of health. This is where the Christian scientists adopted the word and never validated it ever again. The science of health, which of course, is, it's all in your head!Katie Dooley  40:47Yet it's it's not. Your feelings and physical ailments are all-Preston Meyer  40:53Yeah, this gaping wound in my leg that's making a huge mess of the kitchen is all in my head.Katie Dooley  41:03No, it's all on the kitchen floor!Preston Meyer  41:07Anyway, Quimby's theory was that there is no intelligence, no power or action in matter of itself. That the spiritual world to which our eyes are closed by ignorance or unbelief, is the real world that in it lie all the causes for every effect visible in the natural world. And then if the spiritual life can be revealed to us, in other words, if we can understand ourselves, we shall then have our happiness or misery in our own hands. That sounds really nice.Katie Dooley  41:42Oh, and I believe some of it-Preston Meyer  41:44Sure!Katie Dooley  41:45we talked, again, we talked about this for prosperity. If you're a positive person, your life will feel more positive. Preston Meyer  41:50Yeah.Katie Dooley  41:51But this does not account for gaping leg wounds!Preston Meyer  41:55No, or viral infections, bacterial problems! There's a lot of things that you can't control with positive thinking. And this is a proven fact.Katie Dooley  42:06Yes.Preston Meyer  42:07So, interestingly enough, he was a very busy man. Quimby was treating several patients every day, almost every single day for years, which would be normal if he was a doctor. But he wasn't really a doctor. He would sit next to his patients and explain that their ailment was just in their minds, and that they could control it just by thinking really hard about it. Just convince yourself that everything's fine and it will be! If it was easy to convince yourself of something that wasn't so easy to believe. And then it got weird. Sometimes he would rub their heads with his wet hands. Katie Dooley  42:50Ew! Why were they wet???Preston Meyer  42:52Oh, he would dip his hands in water too, and just rub their heads. He later explained that it was the words that did the help. Not the contact with the wet hands. So presumably he was just rubbing their heads with wet hands for his own enjoyment?Katie Dooley  43:10That is a very specific fetish, but we don't kink shame at the Holy Watermelon Podcast.Preston Meyer  43:15True story.Katie Dooley  43:16But we do fake Dr. shame! So carry on!Preston Meyer  43:20cause people are weird!Katie Dooley  43:25There's various fetishes and rubbing.Preston Meyer  43:28I'm okay with if that's your fetish. That's fine. Our-Katie Dooley  43:32Is there consent?Preston Meyer  43:34That's my question! Are these people participating with informed consent? In what is probably a sexual fetish.Katie Dooley  43:44Probably not because it's the 1800's.Preston Meyer  43:47Yeah...consent was a tough discussion back then-Katie Dooley  43:49Actually still a tough discussion, but that's a different episode! Preston Meyer  43:52But at least it's becoming more mainstream. Now.Katie Dooley  43:54Did you know 55% of Canadian men don't actually know what constitutes as consent?Preston Meyer  44:00That's an alarming statisticKatie Dooley  44:02Yeah. A study came out recently.Preston Meyer  44:07Members of Congress are outing themselves all over the place right now saying, Oh, if we have the liberal wrought laws of consent, I would be a sex criminal!Katie Dooley  44:17That means you're a sex criminal!Preston Meyer  44:19Why would why would you say that?Katie Dooley  44:22That means you're a sex criminal. Carry on.Preston Meyer  44:27Anyway, Quimby met Mary Baker Eddy in 1862 when she became his patient. And she was already into the the weird spiritual thing. Yeah, which is fine. It's what she started doing with it after she met Quimby that makes it easy to label her as full crazy.Katie Dooley  44:49So Eddy basically thought the world was the matrix and the only real world was the spiritual world. And we've created this physical world in our minds.Preston Meyer  44:59Neil deGrasse Tyson talks a little bit about how the world is, and the universe is probably just a simulation. So is that really all that different? They both sound crazy.Katie Dooley  45:11They both do sound crazy. I mean, we're getting into philosophy, and it already hurts my head is trying to formulate this sentence, but like,Preston Meyer  45:21The trick is, it's really easy to believe that the world isn't. The world is as concrete as it looks and feels. But I mean, the things that we found out by just scoping down on to the molecular level is even solid rocks are mostly empty space. Katie Dooley  45:39Yeah.Preston Meyer  45:41So it gets pretty easy to say, wow, yeah, there's there's a lot of magic going on here. What is what? Who knows? But it feels like, we're getting some pretty interesting fictions.Katie Dooley  45:56Yes. So Eddie also wrote a book called Science and Health, which in addition to the Bible is considered a holy book in the Church of Christ scientists.Preston Meyer  46:06Yeah, it's pretty normal to have the founding person's literature as part of your Canon.Katie Dooley  46:12It seems like there isn't a lot of Christ in Church of Christ scientists. Preston Meyer  46:16Well, they still have the Bible.Katie Dooley  46:17Yeah.Preston Meyer  46:17It's just secondary to you have the divine power yourself to heal all your problems.Katie Dooley  46:25This goes back to my earlier point, is that I am starting to like JC-Preston Meyer  46:29not the fanclub. Katie Dooley  46:30Not the fanclub, all right.Preston Meyer  46:33That's fair. Katie Dooley  46:33OkayPreston Meyer  46:35Yeah, it's interesting that members of the Church of Christ scientists aren't strictly prohibited from seeking medical attention, but they do avoid it an awful lot. Instead, they just pray. And it's not like your regular prayer. That's like, it's never do the Lord's Prayer, and everything's gonna be fine. It's kind of a, you need to go find a place where you can argue with yourself for a while, just like Mary did with the Nez MarusKatie Dooley  47:04Yeah, not even. Yeah. You like, it's weird. I read some instructions on how to pray. And basically, you just like, fight yourself to not feel sick anymore. Preston Meyer  47:14Yeah!Katie Dooley  47:14So I am like to Jesus or God, it's like "Don't be sick Katie!"Preston Meyer  47:19Right?!Katie Dooley  47:20Don't be sick!Preston Meyer  47:21which sounds like not just counterproductive, because you're not getting the help you need. But you're tiring yourself out more. So if you were fighting an infection, you're probably worse off than if you hadn't had this internal conflicKatie Dooley  47:37I just watch Fraggle Rock when I'm sick. Preston Meyer  47:39Yeah. Does it help?Katie Dooley  47:40Yeah.Preston Meyer  47:40That's good. Filling your life with positivity is helpful. And there's there's a lot to be said about the placebo effect. That doesn't mean don't seek actual help when there's something wrong that needs help.Katie Dooley  47:57Absolutely. There are reports though, even though they aren't specifically prohibited from seeking medical treatment, that members that do opt for medical treatment are often ostracized.Preston Meyer  48:09Yeah, but you can hire somebody from the church to come and help you out. You can get a healer, which is like a doctor, but they're making money off of lying to you.Katie Dooley  48:22It's actually a Christian Science practitioner, and they're very good at praying!Preston Meyer  48:27Are they?Katie Dooley  48:29That's what they're trained to do!Preston Meyer  48:32So I'll just 11 years well, 12 years ago, now, I guess. There was a practitioner named Frank Prince Wonderlic. If I'm not writing that pronunciation, I'm at least close. Put his his name in the show notes. He said... "all healing is a metaphysical process. That means that there is no person to be healed. No material body, no patient, no matter, no illness, no one to heal, no substance, no person, no thing and no place that needs to be influenced. This is what the practitioner must first be clear about."Katie Dooley  49:08It sounds very Scientology.Preston Meyer  49:11A little bit yeah! So, I mean, the problem that I have, right off the beginning is, there is nobody that needs to be healed or influenced. When your job is to heal people. Maybe that's not the thing you should be saying.Katie Dooley  49:28What are you charging for?Preston Meyer  49:31Right? I mean, basically, he's standing here saying, either you don't exist, or you do but nothing else does. So you got nothing to worry about. Which I mean, it may be an extreme interpretation of those words, but that feels really weird when you say there's nothing that needs to be influenced. You're either saying there is no disease at all, or it's not a problem and there is a disease and it is a problem. It's frustrating. And at least 50 Christian scientists have been charged with murder after the children died of very preventable illnesses. Now, of course, it's not first-degree murder that requires premeditation. And the situation is a little premeditated, but not to the degree where it actually counts as premeditated murder.Katie Dooley  50:29Then it would be manslaughter in Canada.Preston Meyer  50:30Exactly.Katie Dooley  50:31Where I think it's third-degree murder in the States is our manslaughter. Preston Meyer  50:35Yeah.Katie Dooley  50:37LDS!Preston Meyer  50:39Yeah, the LDS tradition is a much healthier place relative to this issue. I'll admit it's a mixed bag, there are a lot of converts to the church who come from a wide variety of backgrounds. A lot of people have believed that you really should just pray and not see a doctor when something is wrong. That if you're having mental health problems, or physical health problems, pray about it, eat your vitamins, get your essential oils, and maybe talk to the bishop for counselling. Most of those are not very good choices, including the last one, your bishop is very seldom a properly trained therapist. But there are cases where he is, and he deserves to be paid for that.Katie Dooley  51:31But talk about these elder blessings, because I've heard about it in passing, just being your friend.Preston Meyer  51:36Yeah? So while there are encouragement to seek medical attention, there is also encouragement to get a blessing from an elder of the church comes with an anointing of virgin olive oil, and all that fun stuff. And typically, we laid- lay hands on somebody's head and give a blessing of whatever is needed. Very often, there's a promise that you'll be healed. But this does not take the place of seeking medical attention. It is very explicitly stated over the pulpit regularly from the very top that it should not take the place of seeking medical attention.Katie Dooley  52:17Well, that's good.Preston Meyer  52:18Yeah. Even though some people have a hard time with that. Spectrum! No, church is monolithic. I've given lots of blessings, and that's not because I believe that it's going to fix everything and that you need to go, just pray afterwards. No, sometimes you should get medical attention, depending on what the situation is. Yeah, I don't know. The president of the Church throughout the COVID crisis was a world-renowned heart surgeon, we've got a serious commitment to actually making sure people are healthy, that we can stick around for a long time. The Latter-Day Saints are in some communities longer lived than average. SoKatie Dooley  53:01Because you don't drink do drugs or anything!Preston Meyer  53:03I mean, that's probably a bigger contri-contributor, though, we have our own vices. There's a there's an awful lot of Latter Day Saints who eat a lot more sugar than they ought to.Katie Dooley  53:15That's gonna say from the ones I know. Yes. You all feel personally attacked now, I'm so sorry!Preston Meyer  53:25But to be fair, the entirety of North American culture with a handful of specific localized exceptions, we eat way more sugar than we really should. So are Mormons to stand out there? Not so much.Katie Dooley  53:40Well Okay! Seventh Day Adventists. Again, another Christian denomination, they are typically vegetarians.Preston Meyer  53:49Pretty often.Katie Dooley  53:50And so they're comfortable with seeking medicine and modern medical and health practices, but they have know, have been known to prefer holistic medicine, kind of in line with that vegetarian thing. So they've been known to follow holistic medicine, which is a phrase that has been used by people who oppose medical treatment, but good doctors also talk about the necessity of keeping the whole body healthy, which is holistic. SoPreston Meyer  54:18yeah. Dr. Mike even talks about it sometimes.Katie Dooley  54:22Is that the YouTube one? Preston Meyer  54:23yeah,Katie Dooley  54:24That's kind of cute? Both Hosts  54:25Yeah.Preston Meyer  54:26He's a handsome man.Katie Dooley  54:27He's very handsome. An Adventist family hit the news in 2014 for failing to get their son proper medical care after being diagnosed with rickets. Preston Meyer  54:36You don't hear about rickets very often!Katie Dooley  54:38That's what Tiny Tim had or they speculated it, it's not actually written the book.Preston Meyer  54:42I mean, it's it's a work of fiction, soKatie Dooley  54:45and then in it's always sunny.Preston Meyer  54:48Rickety Cricket!Katie Dooley  54:49Rickety Cricket!Preston Meyer  54:52Yeah, you know, but, I mean, we put vitamin D in so many things now. Katie Dooley  54:56YesPreston Meyer  54:57Like we encourage children to have cereal with a bowl of milk and all of our milk that you get at the grocery store today has vitamin D in it.Katie Dooley  55:05Yeah. So rickets is preventable with vitamin D. Preston Meyer  55:07Yeah.Katie Dooley  55:08So, yeah, it's pretty easy to get. So that's really bad.Preston Meyer  55:13Pretty easy to not get rickets.Katie Dooley  55:15Yeah, I mean, it's pretty easy to get vitamin D Yeah, it really is not easy to get, rickets. So it must be known that they got sucked into the anti medi-medic trap despite warnings from their church.Preston Meyer  55:30Yeah, this is not a normal thing within this religious community. There there is even a network of Seventh Day Adventists hospitals where they actually perform real medicine. So it's, it's weird to see this kind of news hit where a family within this religious community just doesn't want to get involved in medicine.Katie Dooley  55:31Yep. Now we've been pretty hard on Christians. This episode, specific Christian denominations. Preston Meyer  56:03Yeah.Katie Dooley  56:04Spectrum, we know it's not all Christians. ButPreston Meyer  56:06one, it's not even all people within the dominant denominations we've talked about.Katie Dooley  56:10Right, like I said...Preston Meyer  56:12Nothing is monolithic.Katie Dooley  56:13Yes, so on your deathbed, if you need a blood transfusion, you might change your mind real fast! And people have. Preston Meyer  56:19Yeah!Katie Dooley  56:19But we also see it in other religions.Preston Meyer  56:22Yeah, the Hindu tradition is kind of interesting, where generally speaking, medicine is favorably talked about. In fact, when we talked about Hinduism, in our introductory episode, there is a whole part of their religious philosophy that deals with different kinds of medicine. How that translates to the modern things can get a little bit fuzzy. But generally speaking, it's pretty positive, because the Vedas were written 1000s of years ago. But it's kind of cool. But there is, of course, a lot of prejudice against doctors from overseas coming to North America. Do they live up to the same medical standards? Investigation always has to go into it, and they usually end up becoming taxi drivers or literally anything else that's easy to get into. Because getting into the doctor's office again, it's really complicated. Katie Dooley  57:12Yeah, there needs to be some better international cooperation there. BecausePreston Meyer  57:17well, and we do have some doctors who make it and become doctors hereKatie Dooley  57:20Oh absolutely! Preston Meyer  57:20-relatively quickly. But it's yeah, it's not 100% thing. It's really frustrating. And the interesting thing that I think is worth bringing up here is that while they're cool with medicine, they actually do have an issue as... If they're really into their Hindu faith. Of they have an issue with using animal products in their medicine! Any animal juices! Katie Dooley  57:27Gelatin often quite-Preston Meyer  57:47Yeah, we use a lot of different animals stuff in our medicine, which sounds really weird until you actually know a lot about it. And it's like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a natural choice. I'm not an expert. I just trust the people who are.Katie Dooley  57:59Fair.Preston Meyer  58:00Sihks follow the same Hindu principles. This comes with the whole vegan vegetarian thing that care for the animals. It's not about keeping the body, non animal keeping it pure. It's about respect for the animals. So of course, our First Nations people here in North America are more positive about using the whole animal respecting the animal, but take what you need, and be responsible and respectful with what's left make find a use for it, if you can. So really different way of looking at the world there. Yeah, Islam is interesting that they have similar restrictions to Sikhs and Hindus, but not the same. That you absolutely cannot use any material that comes from swine. swine is haram. But animal products from cows, for example, is fine.Katie Dooley  58:53Medical Products from cows. Yes, you said animal products from cows. Which that's true, that is not untrue! Preston Meyer  58:59It's not what i meant-Katie Dooley  59:00Its not specific enoughPreston Meyer  59:01medical products in cows. So I thought that was really interesting. Because you would be haram if you were part pig, I guess. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm haram anyway. According to their laws.Katie Dooley  59:14I mean, yeah, I own a dog soPreston Meyer  59:17Oh yeah, there you go. Katie Dooley  59:17AlreadyPreston Meyer  59:18Troubles.Katie Dooley  59:19Yeah.Preston Meyer  59:21Of course, there are exceptions life or death emergencies are validation enough to ignore these prohibitions. Of course, there are a lot more available here in the West, where there's not preexisting prohibitions. Some people like their books more than they like their children. SoKatie Dooley  59:38I was gonna make sassy comment, but I will refrain for once. I like books better than children. I said it, I said it.Preston Meyer  59:47That's fair, but they're not your children.Katie Dooley  59:49That's true and I have no interest.Preston Meyer  59:51Do you like your books more than Paige?Katie Dooley  59:53No, I would save Paige in a fire but not my books. Preston Meyer  59:55See? That's how it goes.Katie Dooley  59:57FairPreston Meyer  59:58And that feels like the right choice. Katie Dooley  59:59Thank you! Preston Meyer  1:00:00And Paige isn't even human.Katie Dooley  1:00:03But she is real!Preston Meyer  1:00:04Yes. She is real!Katie Dooley  1:00:06She's a little dog. Yeah, I'll post the picture in Discord just 'cause I like her.Preston Meyer  1:00:11Yup. And a few years ago, I heard this great poem from Tim Minchin who we actually mentioned ever so briefly in a, in our most recent interview episode. Storm is the name of the poem by Tim Minchin, and this, this little snippet is just perfect. "Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine!" And that's the deal. It's, I can't think of any better way to explain it. I couldn't get a doctor to say it in a more beautiful wayKatie Dooley  1:00:49Judas would say something like that... Yeah, so we were pretty hard on people today. But that's okay.Preston Meyer  1:00:59That's okay. I don't think we've alienated anybody. Katie Dooley  1:01:02No I think it's, I mean, that's why we exist, is to have conversations about religion, and maybe push some boundaries on beliefs, because no group will get better if we don't.Preston Meyer  1:01:16Right. Whether you're Christian, Buddhist, or just really into snails, or atheist. Generally, the best way to run through this life is by caring about each other as people and wanting the best for each other. And that means saving lives when we can in the effective ways through proven methods.Katie Dooley  1:01:42You know, what, everyone? In addition to following us on Discord and our Instagram and Facebook this week, I encourage you all to go and donate some blood!Preston Meyer  1:01:53I think that's the best civic thing that we can all handle. Unless, of course,Katie Dooley  1:02:01unless you can't. Preston Meyer  1:02:01Yeah.Katie Dooley  1:02:04You can also support us on our Patreon, where we have early release and bonus episodes and our book club. Thank you to patron Lisa for supporting our podcast. And if the subscription model is not your thing, you can also check out our spread shop where we have some amazing Holy Watermelon merch to make you look fancy in this new year.Preston Meyer  1:02:26Thanks for joining us! Both Hosts  1:02:27Peace be with you!

16A little while, and you will see me no longer; andagain a little while, and you will see me.17Sosome of his disciples said to one another, What is this that he says to us,A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me;and,because I am going to the Father?18So they were saying, What does he mean bya little while?We do not know what he is talking about.19Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them,Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me?20Truly, truly, I say to you,you will weep and lament, butthe world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, butyour sorrow will turn into joy.21When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.22So also you have sorrow now, butI will see you again, andyour hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.23In that day you willask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you,whatever you ask of the Father in my name,he will give it to you.24Until now you have asked nothing in my name.Ask, and you will receive,that your joy may be full.

“Putting Feet to Our Confession” Nehemiah 9:38 – 10:39 Big Idea: Repentance is our commitment to the gospel that reflects both transformed thinking and transformed living. The people's repentance was… 1)     Accountable (9:38) 2)     Corporate (9:38 - 10:29) 3)     Obedient (10:28,29,34,36) 4)     Serious (10:29) 5)     Practical (10:30-39) Abstaining from mixed marriages (10:30) Keeping the Sabbath holy (10:31) Funding the temple sacrifices (10:32-34) Bringing firstfruits to the temple (10:35-37) Tithing to support temple personnel (10:37-39) 6)     Prophetic The gospel of Jesus is… The highest purpose of marriage Ephesians 5:31–32 — 31“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. The ultimate Sabbath rest Hebrews 4:9–11 — 9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,10for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. The reason for generous giving 2 Corinthians 8:9 — 9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. The meaning of the true temple John 2:18–21 — 18So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. Revelation 21:22 — 22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. The fulfillment of Old Testament sacrifices Matthew 5:18 — 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Romans 10:4 — 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. The New Covenant of God's forgiveness Matthew 26:28 — 28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins

(Bilingual) このメッセージでは太助牧師が神様がどのように人生を変えてくれるかについて以下の4つのポイントから話します。 In this message Ps Tasuke talks about how God changes our lives in these 4 points: (エゼキエル47:5a,9JCB)それから一千キュビト行くと、水の深さは腰までになりました。この川の水に触れるものはすべて生き生きとする。魚が住める水に変えられるので、死海にも魚がいっぱいになる。この水が流れ込む所はどこでも、すべてのものが生かされる。 (Ezekiel 47:4b,9 NLT)After another 1,750 feet, it was up to my waist.(9)There will be swarms of living things wherever the water of this river flows. Fish will abound in the Dead Sea, for its waters will become fresh. Life will flourish wherever this water flows. 1.イエスと出会い、ザアカイの価値観は変わった Zacchaeus' Value System Changed After Meeting Jesus (ルカ19:5-10 JCB)やがて、そこへ差しかかったイエスは足を止め、ザアカイを見上げると、「ザアカイ。早く降りてきなさい。今晩はあなたの家に泊めてもらうつもりでいますから」と言われました。(6)ザアカイはびっくりして、急いで降りると、大喜びでイエスを家に迎えました。(7)これを見ていた人々の心中は、おだやかではありません。「なにも、あの札つきの悪党の家の客にならなくても……」と言って、つぶやきました。(8)しかし、ザアカイは主の前でこう告白しました。「先生。今からは、財産の半分を貧しい人たちに分けてあげます。税金を取り過ぎた人たちには、四倍にして払い戻します。」(9-10)イエスは言われました。「その告白こそ、今日この家に救いが来たことのあかしです。この人も迷い出たアブラハムの子どもの一人なのだから。メシヤ（救い主）のわたしは、このような人を捜し出して救うために来たのです。」 (ルカ19:5-10 NLT) When Jesus came by, he looked up at Zacchaeus and called him by name. “Zacchaeus!” he said. “Quick, come down! I must be a guest in your home today.”(6)Zacchaeus quickly climbed down and took Jesus to his house in great excitement and joy.(7)But the people were displeased. “He has gone to be the guest of a notorious sinner,” they grumbled.(8)Meanwhile, Zacchaeus stood before the Lord and said, “I will give half my wealth to the poor, Lord, and if I have cheated people on their taxes, I will give them back four times as much!”(9)Jesus responded, “Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham. (10)For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.” 2.聖霊が何が正しいかを教えてくれる The Holy Spirit Tells You What's Right (ヨハネ16:13 JCB)しかし、真理である聖霊が来られます。その方の指導を受けて、あなたがたもいつか、すべての真理を知るのです。聖霊は、自分の考えを述べたりしません。ただ、聞くままを伝え、やがて起こることについても話します。 (John 16:13 NLT)When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.  3.聖霊が正しい決断を可能にしてくれる The Holy Spirit Enables You to Make Good Decisions (ピリピ4:13 JCB)力を与え、強めてくださる方によって、私は、神に求められるどんなことでもできるからです。 (Philippians 4:13 NLT)For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength. 4.聖霊に導かれる結果、正しい結果がある The Right Results Come When You Are Led by the Holy Spirit (2コリント3:17-18 JCB)主は、いのちを与えてくださる御霊です。御霊のおられるところには自由があります。 (18)私たちには顔の覆いがありません。鏡のように、主の栄光をはっきり映すことができます。そして、主の御霊が私たちのうちで働いてくださるにつれ、私たちはますます主に似た者にされていくのです。 (2 Corinthians 3:17-18 NLT)For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

Your Sorrow Will Turn into Joy 16A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me. 17So some of his disciples said to one another, What is this that he says to us, A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me; and, because I am going to the Father?18So they were saying, What does he mean by a little while? We do not know what he is talking about. 19Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me? 20Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. I Have Overcome the World 25I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.[a] 28I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father. 29His disciples said, Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech! 30Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God. 31Jesus answered them, Do you now believe? 32Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

Be Inspired.These inspirational quotes provide a big picture of God's never-ending love and power, which extends far, wide, and beyond. Trusting God leads to hope, and knowing that peace and joy are yet to come is inspiring. These Bible verses affirm daily renewal of his love.Romans 8:38-39For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Lamentations 3:22-23The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.2 Corinthians 4:16-18So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen.Ephesians 3:20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us.Romans 15:13May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.heat-wave-exercise-sweat-exhaustion-tiredCREDIT: LI ZHONGFEI/GETTY IMAGESHave No FearThese powerful Bible verses demand we cast away our fears, be strong, and courageous. Relying on God enables us to do this, allowing us to be productive and sacrifice for others. Love protects us from fear and makes us stronger. Use these as daily Bible verses in your morning prayers or before bed after a long, difficult day.Deuteronomy 31:6Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, or the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.Psalm 27:12The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?1 John 4:18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?Psalm 31:24Be strong, and let your heart take courage, all you who wait for the Lord!Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

And as they were speaking to the people, the priests andthe captain of the temple andthe Sadducees came upon them,2greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaimingin Jesus the resurrection from the dead.3And they arrested them andput them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening.4But many of those who had heard the word believed, andthe number of the men came to about five thousand. 5On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem,6withAnnas the high priest andCaiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family.7And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired,By what power orby what name did you do this?8Then Peter,filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, Rulers of the people and elders,9if we are being examined todayconcerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed,10let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel thatby the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified,whom God raised from the deadby him this man is standing before you well.11This Jesus[a]is the stone that wasrejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.[b]12And there issalvationin no one else, forthere is no othername under heaven given among men[c]by which we must be saved. 13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.14But seeing the man who was healedstanding beside them,they had nothing to say in opposition.15But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another,16saying,What shall we do with these men? For thata notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.17But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn themto speak no more to anyone in this name.18So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.19But Peter and John answered them,Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge,20forwe cannot but speak of whatwe have seen and heard.21And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them,because of the people, for all were praising Godfor what had happened.22For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old.

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.Related ResourcesExecutive Skill Questionnaire-RevisedESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-RSmart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard GuareSmart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered websiteHelping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills. Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does. But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire. Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode. Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans. Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty. Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?Peg Dawson 05:41Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.Hannah Choi 08:18I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.Peg Dawson 08:28Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.Hannah Choi 08:53Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,Peg Dawson 10:31yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not soHannah Choi 11:16yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.Peg Dawson 12:00Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...Hannah Choi 12:43Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,Peg Dawson 13:02yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.Hannah Choi 14:05Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.Peg Dawson 14:24Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,Hannah Choi 15:59yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.Peg Dawson 16:16So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.Hannah Choi 19:29I saw that too.Peg Dawson 19:30So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.Hannah Choi 20:08Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?Peg Dawson 21:18So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.Hannah Choi 22:44Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.Peg Dawson 22:49And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.Hannah Choi 26:22Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,Peg Dawson 27:03Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.Hannah Choi 28:00Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.Peg Dawson 28:33Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.Hannah Choi 29:30And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. SoPeg Dawson 29:50I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's suchHannah Choi 30:33If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.Peg Dawson 30:36It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.Hannah Choi 30:59Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.Peg Dawson 32:09Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. SoHannah Choi 33:08yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,Peg Dawson 33:34right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 33:46So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.Peg Dawson 38:27I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 39:29Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.Peg Dawson 39:34Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.Hannah Choi 39:37Do you have any questions for me?Peg Dawson 39:39So how long have you been coaching?Hannah Choi 39:41I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.Peg Dawson 40:05Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?Hannah Choi 40:19That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?Peg Dawson 42:02Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.Hannah Choi 42:15They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.Peg Dawson 42:56I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But andHannah Choi 43:19so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?Peg Dawson 44:55But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.Hannah Choi 45:40And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.Peg Dawson 46:44And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,Hannah Choi 47:55if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?Peg Dawson 48:41No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.Hannah Choi 49:19But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?Peg Dawson 49:34So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.Hannah Choi 49:57I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it! Peg Dawson 50:00Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?Hannah Choi 50:02They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting. Peg Dawson 50:13And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.Hannah Choi 50:25Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.Peg Dawson 50:40Thank you. This was fun.Hannah Choi 50:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!

Goal setting can be fun and stressful at the same time. Dr. Deb shares how to stay on track to meet your goals and grow your practice while maintaining your sanity and personal life.  Do not miss these highlights: 02:08 Start making progress and changing the landscape of your life and your business to accomplish a bigger goal  02:24 You need to have a plan on how you're going to get there,  just like going on a trip  03:53  It's easy for things to derail us in our life, the same way for businesses. You might derail from your original goal. 04:40 Write down your goals for one year, five years and 10 years, break them down and reevaluate  06:17 Your desired future - Track your progress. 09:37 The desired future statement - It lays out where you're going in the next 12 months and how you plan to get there. 11:08 Define your objectives - Outline how you're going to reach that desired future, determine what must happen to achieve your goal over the next 12 months 12:24 Follow your KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) - Define what it takes to accomplish your goals and your objectives.  15:15 It is your job as the leader in the practice, to tell people what you're thinking, share the objectives, goals, and the expectations to help reach the goal Resources Mentioned Join Us in the FMBI Mastermind Group on Facebook.  You can find the Group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/5461914567153276/ Transcript of Epsiode #29: 0:01You're listening to the Functional Medicine Business Podcast featuring Dr. Deb, one of the most creative functional medicine business practitioners in her industry. She shares the wisdom and knowledge that she has gained over 25 years of functional medicine, a pioneer in functional medicine, scheduling, leadership and Practice Management. Dr. Devin has a wealth of knowledge, and he's eager to share to help functional medicine become more productive. And for the practitioners and patients to live better lives. Our podcast shares the good and the bad of our industry, because Dr. Deb knows the pain you live every day building a functional medicine practice with practical tools of how to manage money, taxes and patient care, she will discuss it all with you. 0:54Hi, welcome back to the FMBI podcast. And today I want to talk to you about accomplishing your goals. You know, every year we set goals, and oftentimes we set them and we forget them. Now, at the end of every year, I go through and I look at what did I accomplish last year, I pull out my goals that I wrote down at the end of the year before and I see what I accomplished and what I didn't. But part of the problem with doing that is when we set our goals and I was notorious for this, when I first started out in business, and even just in my personal life, I would write down all my goals and I would be excited about accomplishing them. But then I'd forget about them. I put them in a book and I'd never look at them again until the end of the year. And if I manifested them, and they came true, great. And if not, I'd put them on the list for next year, when I really got good at setting goals, and not only setting them, but each week writing down what are the big three things that I'm going to do in my personal life and my professional life to accomplish my bigger goal is when I really started making progress and changing the landscape of my life and my business. 2:18So it's important for us to know big picture, where are we going? What are we doing? But then we have to have a plan on how we're going to get there. If we don't have a plan, then oftentimes it doesn't happen. It's kind of like going on a trip right? Back in the day before we had GPS, we'd have to have a map. And we'd we'd write out like where are we going? Where were we going to stop? How are we going to get there. And then we knew by you know, 10 o'clock on Tuesday, we would arrive at whatever destination we were going to. With GPS,

Supporting kids with Executive Function challenges is hard enough, but what happens when they're feeling resistance towards changing their habits? How can parents and key support systems work together to inspire real change - even in those who may not see the value in it just yet? On this week's episode, I sat down with one of my favorite people, Kim - the mom of one of my long-time coaching clients, Skyla. As you'll hear in today's episode, our first session together four years ago was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love, consistency, support, and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla's coach and I can't quite believe that I finally have the opportunity. So listen in to hear her mom Kim and I tell our story of Skyla's success. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey and that you leave feeling inspired in your own Executive Function journey.Here are some readings and resources for topics that came up in my conversation with Kim about her and her daughter's journey.Test Prep and Managing Test AnxietyUnderstanding Test Anxiety How to Overcome Test AnxietyStudent Stress: Untangling the Anxiety and Executive Function ConnectionOrganization ResourcesClutterbug - Find out what kind of organization strategies work best for youUnderstanding why kids struggle with organizationEmotional RegulationSelf-Reg with Stuart ShankerPermission to Feel by Marc Brackett, Ph.D.Whole-Brain Child by Daniel J. Siegel, M.D. and Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D.Foster Care and AdoptionAdopt US KidsChildwelfare League of AmericaInternatonal AdoptionResources for Foster FamiliesNational Foster Parent Association ResourcesContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:03Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So four years ago, I was paired with a new client, and her name was Skyla. And at the time, she was a fourth-grader who was in the process of being adopted, and she was being adopted with her younger sister by a woman called Kim. And the first day we met, it was a sunny day in March of 2018. And we met up at a local public library for our first coaching session. This was BC, you know, before COVID, before we switched to entirely online coaching. Anyway, I knew from the start that this was going to be a unique experience for me as a coach. As you'll hear in today's episode, that first day was just one step within a long and challenging journey that has blossomed into a truly amazing story about the transformational power of love and consistency and support and trust. I have always wanted to share my experience as Skyla's coach, and I can't quite believe that I finally have the opportunity to do this. So keep listening to hear her mom cam and I tell our story of Skyla's success, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed the journey. Hi, Kim, this is so great having you here today? Could you start off by introducing yourself and sharing your family's journey to executive function coaching? And before you start, I just want to say thank you again for talking with me today.Kim 01:51No problem, happy, happy to do it for you, Hannah. Yes, so I mean, I my journeys started, geez, it was probably 2016 in in, you know, looking to adopt children and going through the process of becoming a foster parent, and then identifying two girls, young girls that were in need of a permanent home. And so, you know, Desi and Skyla, came into my life and began living with me in 2017, February of 2017. And, you know, certainly in foster care for reason, their background was was quite a difficult one and a challenging one. And they had a lot to sort of work through and had missed, you know, a lot of, you know, critical academic aspects of of learning, because of their biological home and the circumstances, they're so sort of coming in and putting them into a parochial school with a hope that, you know, some structure would would help them be able to, you know, advance in their studies and catch up quite a bit. But, you know, became clear that additional supports are going to be needed. And so I think I found Beyond BookSmart on just doing a Google search, I feel like that's the way I came across it. And it turned out to be great. Uh, you know, I was hooked up with you, Hannah, and, you know, I think starting in March of 2018. And from that point forward, you've been working with Skyla, and, you know, amazing progress. I mean, really, just, like I said, from, you know, night, today day to night, it has, it has been really a, a real metamorphosis, so to speak. And in terms of her approach her thinking, her emotional regulation, her, you know, confidence is incredible as to where it started. So it's been, it's just been so helpful. And, you know, I think that it's, it's not just about the work and, you know, helping her with the work she needs to do. It really is more of the emotional and organizational skills that I think she she just had no idea how to do those things. And so, this was a huge, huge step in the right direction for her. Hannah Choi 04:47So I know it's been four years. But do you remember how you felt?Kim 04:53Yes, I do. I remember being just frustrated and had no idea how to handle some of the issues that were coming up. You know, there was significant meltdowns, you know, at homework time that carried on for hours hours of, of her just crying, "I don't know what to do. I'm stupid. I don't know how to do this". And, you know, was it a, an attempt to avoid actually doing the work? Or did she really feel that she didn't know how to do it? And I think, you know, looking back, it was a combination of the two. But yeah, it was really frustrating, like, how do you help her when, you know, she's so clearly emotional, and upset and unable to even like, get to a starting point, and then try to go through it. So it was, I was, I was very frustrated. And, you know, she was very frustrated too. So was really looking for some help, just how do we, how do we make this better? How do we help her focus more and, you know, understand that school is something you're going to have to do, you're not going to get out of it. But, you know, let's just try to try to take this emotion out of it. And try to get the work done.Hannah Choi 06:33I, I remember, really vividly once working with her in the beginning when she was still in fourth grade, and she was doing something, something with math and and it was really hard for her. And I think, like I remember the session ended, she was really upset. And, and then a few weeks ago, I was talking with her about math, and she was doing an online math thing that in the past has really challenged her emotional regulations. And I and I asked her, "What do you do now when you are working on that math and it's really hard." And she said, "Well, I just notice that if I'm starting to get upset and frustrated, I walk away from it, I just take a break. And I go back to it later". And I was just I told you I was gonna cry. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes to think about how, what a gift that is for her to have figured that out after so long that now when she's in a frustrating, frustrating situation, she knows how to manage her emotions. And yeah, and like how that is applicable to so many things. It doesn't just have to be math.Kim 07:54No, everything, everything. Yeah, yeah, no, I made it. And I know you really hammered that home with her like throughout many of your, your sessions with her and, and that, you know, that ability to just stop pause, whether it's breathe, walk away, just take take a mental break from this for a minute, rather than continue to get more and more frustrated and overwhelmed by what's in front of you. And you know, she definitely has picked that up and has taken it and it's just, it's great to see. I mean, like you said, it's a great life skill. I think probably I could do that at work and that might help me, too.Hannah Choi 08:39We can all we can all learn from Skyla. Yeah. Every every time I think about her, your I should say your like yours and hers, journey through this through coaching and just through and not even just coaching but just through the process of adopting them and having them you guys become a family and, and you know, watching both girls really change and blossom and grow and is the idea of just trust, like trust, just like trusting the process trusting that people that you have welcomed into your life as a support system. And, and I just think that this is like her your story is such a great example of of that. Because in even my own experience as her coach, I had to keep telling myself like, trust that trust that what you are, the messages that you are giving to her. They're getting through. And it just it was it was hard sometimes to trust that. Yeah, it was really hard. And it took a really long time. Like I've been trying to get her to breathe, to use breathing as an emotional regulation tool for four years. And she used it in when she took her test. And she said it you know and and she said that was the Is your side system ever taken? And I'm like, I know, there's a lot of factors involved there. And I know that breathing is one of them. And, and so trusting that process like, Have you felt that? through it? Yeah.Kim 10:13I mean, you know, I feel like I was in such dire straits when she initially started that I felt like I had no choice. You know, clearly as time has gone on, and I've seen her, you know, make positive, you know, move in a positive direction. It's, it's been, okay, like, you know, we hung in here, she's hung in here, she's starting to take what Hannah's telling her and apply it, and it's, it's just creating much more positive outcome for her and, you know, for for us for everyone. So, yeah, no, I mean, it's, trust is not my strong suit.Hannah Choi 11:02It's hard. It's hard to do.Kim 11:04Yeah. But, you know, I think that, you know, I, you and I had talked about the plan and what you were gonna focus on with her, and they were all the right things that she needed, as she's gone through the process. So it just made it easy to trust it. And then, you know, seeing it work, but it took a lot of time. I mean, I give you a lot of credit. I mean, this is a kid that, you know, did not come from traditional circumstances. And, you know, it just made everything far more challenging. And but she's, I mean, really just an amazing, in an amazing place right now. I mean, she is, you know, putting in extra effort, rather than the bare minimum. She is, you know, going above and beyond. She comes home, she does her homework before she does anything else. I don't have to ask, I don't even have to worry whether or not she's getting her work done. Because I know she is. And she is so much more confident now. Than where she was. I mean, it's, it's really, I mean, it's so incredible to see. And her grades have have come to a good place. And this year is 8th grade. It's really challenging.Hannah Choi 12:30And her school does not make school easy, though. Yeah, confidence is, I would say the one thing that has been the biggest change I've noticed in her and I remember when she was in fourth grade her saying to me, there's no point in getting excited about anything because it probably won't work out. And that just broke my heart. And now I see her excited about stuff even though she's so school is so boring. You know, of course, every kid every kid says yeah, it is. It's boring. Like work is boring for us. Right? Exactly. Yeah, I mean, not all the time. Yeah. But now I just like I remember she didn't ever want to handwrite anything but she also never wanted to type anything. And because she felt like she was too slow of a of a typer but she also felt like her handwriting was so poor. And so so that was there was always so much friction with anything that whenever she had to produce anything, and now she's like, bopping the keys with like, no problem. And her handwriting is gorgeous. And her notes are beautiful13:45They are! they're all color coded and highlighted and I mean she's got little little sticky notes in her books with notes in them it's unbelievable. Yeah.Hannah Choi 14:00She is such a good student it's incredible and she just uses all the all the tools and she's so organized you I don't know if you remember but when when she first I'm sure you do when she first started coaching she was very resistant to folders and oh yeah, no, it was more into like the shove method just like shove it into the backpack14:20Balls of paper in the backpack? Yeah, not no organization whatsoever. It was. Yeah, somewhat horrifying. Could you be that disorganized? Yeah. But now she has like an accordion folder with like everything neatly placed inside. It's it's a total 180 It reallyHannah Choi 14:44 I remember just talking about organization was really stressful for her. She would have really big emotions around changing her organizational style. And now she likes to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, off. So great. Well I love it. So, were there times where you? And I don't know, you can be honest with me, because I know how difficult it is as a parent to trust the people that we, you know, that we bring into our children's lives. But were there times where you where you questioned that? Did I make the right decision with coaching? Kim 15:19Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, there's always like, a doubt, like, you know, I think we all want to hit the easy button and like, have things just magically change. And they didn't magically change it. It took a long time. And, you know, I, you know, I think we all want to see progress happen faster. But the, she's a child, children are children, and, you know, they're, they're not working at our pace they're working at at theirs, and it's very different. So, yeah, of course, you know, everyone wants things to happen faster, especially when you know, you're a parent. And, you know, it's not just Skyla I have her sister too, and trying to balance both of them and trying to get them up to speed and get them in a better place. So that they can be successful. You know, there were times where I was like, ah, is this working? Is it not? I don't know. But, you know, I think just hanging in there. And then, you know, continuing to see over time that progress. I mean, it really has, it does take time. It does, it's there's no immediate silver bullet to solve these things. You do have to hang in there. And, you know, but four years, and we've seen incredible progress fromHannah Choi 16:51Tremendous, I know. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I think that her story, at least for me, as a coach has been such a great example of looking for these, like, beautiful, small moments, where I see a shift, and I see oh, like she reacted in this tiny little bit different way. And it's like, okay, I'm making some progress. And it is, so it was so minuscule. Like, so tiny. But I saw that, and, and so those tiny little things became, in my, like, in my mind, and my heart became these, like, huge wins. And I, like, I know, typing in my portal notes or emailing you or texting you and being like, yes. Right. Like this thing happened. And it seems like such a small thing, but it's, I've been waiting two years for this or whatever.Kim 17:48Right? Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's those small, iterative steps and wins and, you know, changes in her mindset, or just being open to like trying a tool you suggest or, you know, thinking about something a different way, or, you know, it, it takes it takes time to get kids comfortable with that stuff. And, you know, I mean, clearly, you built a great rapport with her from early on. And I think, you know, building that trust with her, allowed a lot to happen, of course, right. Because that's, that's the first step in any process in any human interaction is, is building trust between the coach and the child.Hannah Choi 18:39Yeah, yeah, that yeah, that was my I mean, I could tell the, the second I met her, I thought, okay, like, this is, this is not going to be easy, but I was, I was just, I just fell in love with her that first day and I, I just was so excited to, to have the chance to, to, you know, to work with her and, yeah, it. I mean, I, I know, I've told you this 100 times, and I'll continue to tell you it but it's just such a gift for me. I'm so grateful for it. I am just so overwhelmed sometimes by how lucky I feel that I've had her in my life. And I know that I will, like even if our coaching our coach client relationship ends, I know that will stay close because I just I think that I just can't imagine not having her in my lifeKim 19:32is an amazing girl. And she's a really special child. I mean, she really is in so many ways. And you know, just kind of thoughtful and caring. I honestly she's, she's a gift to you and me.Hannah Choi 19:53Right, right. Yeah. So What would it present day Kim, tell tell Kim from 2015 or 2016, like when you first started, you know, thinking about adoption andKim 20:11yeah. You know, I think that it's, you know, I, I went into it, honestly, you know, adopting two children as a single parent, which is a challenge. And then also working quite a number of hours per week. So it, it's been a, it was a really hard adjustment for me early on, I have to admit, like really hard from, you know, spending 40 plus years of your life as a, essentially a single person, and then all of a sudden, there's two little beings in your home all the time.Hannah Choi 20:54And they've come from challenging situation. Kim 20:58That's right. Yeah. And, you know, it was, I mean, I would never change the circumstances for the world. Never. It was such an amazing, you know, I don't even know what the term to use for it, but just that we found each other, and that we came together as a family, and that they are both, you know, really doing well, and going to, you know, a great private school next year, I would say, do do it, go ahead and adopt those girls and try to make a positive influence on their lives and help them any way you can. So, I think that, yeah, I think that, you know, had I know, now how successful this would have been for, you know, or this has been for Skyla. It would have been so easy going into it, because I would have been like, okay, all right, it's gonna be a few years, I know exactly when this is all going to shake out and be better. But yeah, it was stressful. There's been stressful on the way but it's, it's happening. I mean, like, things are improving, and they're really, really thriving. So it's wonderful to see.Hannah Choi 22:28really is, it's, it's, I love your story I love I love everything. I don't, I don't want to think about what would have happened if you hadn't found them. And it's, and also for yourself to like, what a beautiful thing that you've gotten for yourself to?Kim 22:43Absolutely, ya know, by far I'm the I'm the person that's getting the most, I thinkHannah Choi 22:51and what are you looking forward to, for you and for them?Kim 22:55Ah, she's, I mean, well, so Skyla starts high school in the fall, I mean, like, I can't even like where did time go crazy, is crazy. And I'm excited for her to be, you know, in a school, it is going to be more challenging than where she has been. And, but I think, you know, she's up for the challenge now. And I think that she's going to do she's gonna do really well. And I think she's going to be surrounded by people that are motivated, and, you know, are going to push her maybe a bit more than where she is now. And I think that will be good for you know, not too much. Right? So but, but definitely a healthy push towards more academic kind of excelling more of an academic from an academic perspective. And, you know, the school also has a lot of sports, and art and theater. And so I really want to see her participate in a lot of those things as well because she loves her painting and she loves, you know, acting, she still threatens that she's gonna go for an audition and become an actress, we'll see.Hannah Choi 24:14I could just I could totally see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.Kim 24:18So you know, I think that the school is going to offer a lot for her in terms of lots of different things academics, but also socially as well as other courses that I think will be will be great and then my goodness, I can't even think like, she'll be driving at some point. And then off to college. So it's, it's exciting. I think she has a really solid future in front of her and I'm really happy for the help that you've given us. Certainly through this process. I could not have done it. Honestly with without you would have been, Ah, you have so much patience? And I have almost none, so...Hannah Choi 25:07Well, you're doing something right, because it can't just be me. Yeah. Well, do you have any questions for me?Kim 25:19Right, let's see, what can I ask you? I know it was it was definitely walked into something that was unusual in terms of the circumstances, just given her background. Was it? Was it the hardest child you've ever had to work with?Hannah Choi 25:39No way. Although I don't know why me she definitely was very, it was very challenging. But she just kept coming back. Right. Like, like, even when we would have a frustrating session, and she would leave in tears. Or, like, if we had tech problems. It's, you know, and it didn't end well. When we met again, it was like, it never happened. And she was just back. You know, just back to her chip herself. I remember we would have corn parties. Like she would come on to a session if she hadn't eaten yet. It was just like a little dicey. And so I'd be like, alright, what can I get her to eat? And so, so we started this thing. And we still do it today, actually, where if, if like, she's eating something, I will ask her for some. And she gives it to me, like by putting it up to the camera. And we do it without even like, there's no laughter. Yeah, it is as if she is giving me the thing. And we have done this in sessions over the past four years, just the other day, she was eating Maltesers. And I was I love those. And I was like, Oh, can I can I have one? And she very seriously said, Sure, and picked it up and put it up to the camera, and I took it and ate it. And we've been doing that since I think since the first corn party where we both ate corn. I was like, I'm gonna just like get her to eat anything. Yeah, so I like ran upstairs and grabbed myself a bowl of frozen corn, just like eating frozen corn. Well, yeah. And I just, I don't know, I just felt like I said, I just fell for her right away. And I was just so happy to do whatever it took to, to get her to, you know, to do buy in to buy into it and to trust me. Yeah. And that I that I wasn't leaving. I'm not gonna leave. You can give me the hardest day and I'm not going to leave. I'm going to come back next week. Whether you want me to or not? Yes. And so maybe that maybe that is something that strengthened our relationship is that she recognized like that I wasn't gonna give up.Kim 28:03Yeah, most definitely. I mean, I, you know, clearly she came from, you know, a background where people did give up, you know, she got moved to different homes. You know, and I, it's funny, as we've talked, you know, she's admitted, like, I, you know, when you came and said you were going to adopt us. She's like, I didn't think like, this was going to be it for me. Like, I really didn't think this, that I was going to stay in one place. I thought I was gonna go somewhere else. And what a horrible I mean, what a horrible way to think but yes, she's stuck with me now. So28:51Yeah. And do you remember when the adoption was final? And we both notice, we noticed a really big difference.Kim 28:58That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 29:03Oh, yeah. Remember, like one session to the next. It was there was a big change with the adoption in between. That's right. Yeah. And she still has challenging days, right. Like there was we had a session a few months ago, where she just complained about school the entire time. And then the next session, she was like, Oh, look, I got I got 100 on this and I got 100 on that, and I'm gonna do this project. And so we just all have bad days, some days. Just really great at communicating how bad of a day it was.Kim 29:32That's right. Yes. No, she's she's very vocal on her bad days. Yeah.Hannah Choi 29:37Which is actually really good. Like talking through your stuff is important. Better than holding it in.Kim 29:43Absolutely. Yeah. What's What's the longest you've worked with a client?Hannah Choi 29:53Skyla Kim 29:54is it really? Wow. Wow. Yeah. You Okay.Hannah Choi 30:01Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Yeah. And I'm so excited to go to her graduation, her eighth grade. She showed me a picture of the dress she's wearing. So oh, do I have to dress up? 30:15She's, she's got quite a dress for this. Yeah.Hannah Choi 30:22Cool. Well, I, you answered all my questions. Do you have anything else? Anything else you want to say? Or?30:30Like, how much time does it take to make meaningful change with with kids? Like, is it? I mean, it's been for years for us. But like, I can't imagine you can do it in six months, or a year or even two year, it has to be an extended period of time. Right.Hannah Choi 30:53My sister is also a coach for beyond booksmart. And she has a client she's been working with for six years. He's a senior in high school now. Yeah, it just, it takes a really long time. And I think part of it is just because change is hard. You know, even adults, like most of my clients are adult clients. And, and a lot of them come in thinking like, oh, I'll just do this for six, you know, six months. And you know, here, you know, a year and a half, two years later, they're still still getting a lot of benefit from it. But I think because your executive function skills are not finished developing, that part of your brain is not finished developing until you're in your mid 20s. So there's a lot of learning to be done. And kids who already have challenges in that area, it just makes it even harder. Yeah, yeah, it just takes a really long time. It really does. Especially when, you know, there's other stuff going on, you know, like, like, like, for example, like, schuyler's background, you know, and or just personality. Right. You know, there's, there's so much that ties into it, and then throw in a pandemic,Kim 31:59right. Oh, my God.Hannah Choi 32:01Right. That messed everything up!Kim 32:04Yeah, exactly. It's like two years of this. SoHannah Choi 32:10yeah, it's been really hard for most everybody. Almost everyone. Yeah,Kim 32:16yeah. Especially the kids. I mean, fortunately, I mean, she was able to be in school, the majority of the time, but yeah, it's still still hard. Or tough two years.Hannah Choi 32:32Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think that. I think that. I think that, yes, it's taken a long time for Skyla to make a lot of make change. But, but I don't think it's, that's like not, it's not unusual. And it's not It doesn't surprise me, what is the best thing about it is that you have been able to allow her to take her time to do it in in the time that that she needed. And that, you know that you know that she was you that you were in a situation that allowed her to, you know, to just take her time and be herself and find that for herself. And, and I really feel like because it was because we had the patients with her. And because we allowed her to learn that in her own way at her own speed. We met her where she was always right to me, we know that about her, you cannot force anything on her. You know, we just continually had to meet her where she was. But through that process, she's learned so much about herself, and she's learned what will work and we've learned what will work and what won't work. And so now, like, that's all really solid for her now. So like all of these things that she's learned about herself and strategies and tools and what's going to work and what's not going to work and what you've learned about her now. It's so solid in her it's so it's like become part of her because it was allowed to develop naturally. And it was allowed to develop in its own time. And so I think it'll, that that will, like serve her so well over the course of her life. Because it's she's learning them now in this, like formative years, you know, and that she wasn't forced to be anyone but herself. And and as hard as it was. We trusted her and we trusted the process that eventually she would figure it out. Yeah. Kim 34:33Yeah, it's been great. I mean, what a story. I Yeah. I was looking at our notes from like, the earlier sessions. And and sort of like after a year after two years after three years and just the different focus areas and the progress and you know, the good days the bad days, but Overall, she's she's just come so far.Hannah Choi 35:03I know, it's amazing. That's our story for today. Before I go, I wanted to share that just last week I took Skyla, her sister and my daughter out to lunch, I found myself just mesmerized by the beauty and the intelligence and sense of humor of these three girls. I'm so excited for their futures. And I don't know if I'll ever know how to put into words how lucky I feel to have met Skyla and been given the chance to become someone she trusts. So thank you, Kim, for trusting me. And thank you all for joining me today and taking time out of your day to listen. I really hope that you found something meaningful or inspiring in today's episode. I know for me, it was a really moving and special experience and I feel very fortunate to have been able to share it all with you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to this podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. Thanks for listening

Today on the podcast, Janell chats with returning guest Melanie Casteneda about Castin's question — “Why is there a mental health stigma in the Church? How can we help those who are struggling with mental health issues? Why isn't the Church addressing this topic more?” As a warning, there is mention of suicidal ideation in this episode.Melanie talks a lot about the ups and downs of her mental health journey including her struggled with an anxiety disorder along with other forms of mental illness. She talks about her emotions surrounding being admitted into the psych ward of a hospital, the aftermath, and ultimately what caused her to want to be an advocate for those who struggle with mental health. She talks about the tension of wanting to trust God as healer while also seeing the benefits of therapy and medications. SWe hope this episode ie helpful for you all! ___________We would love to thank our Patrons for all their amazing support! To learn more about supporting Finding Something REAL via Patreon, click here!Castin's Intro EpisodeCastin & Pastor MichaelFSR s1 e11 with Melanie FSR s2 e5 with Melanie2 Corinthians 4:18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Marlo Anderson 0:06Do you have safety concerns? Well, my friend Dave, might be able to help you a little bit. So welcome to the show, Dave. Dave Nance 0:13Thank you, Marlo. appreciate being here. Thanks for having me. Marlo Anderson 0:16Why are you at CES 2022. Dave Nance 0:18So we do have some connected products, […] The post Pepper Spray that is Smart? Personal Safety Products that help you stay, well, safe. appeared first on The Tech Ranch.

In S3E4 of the SheRecovery Podcast, you'll hear from Crystal Renaud Day along with her mom and special guest Gina Renaud as they walk through 90 Days to Wholeness™ recovery devotional in our Whole New Year series.  In this week's episode, Crystal and Gina begin their discussion on the second recovery step outlined in the devotional: Confession. The biblical definition of confession is the acknowledging or confessing of sins before God. The first step in confession is realizing what sin is, how you may have inadvertently got there, and how to get right with God. One of the ways to recognize sin is that as you continue doing wrong things, they escalate to uncontrollable urges or impulses and unhealthy practices. What we do is planting seeds and nurturing them by continuing these behaviors. You don't realize what's been planted in your soul until you start producing fruit. By now you are seeing the negative results, feeling dirty, sad, shameful, secretive maybe even experiencing sickness in your mind and body. 1 Corinthians 6:18So, now comes the Good News about Confession. Acknowledging and confessing our sins (our wrong doings) to God opens the door to the process of cleansing. A release from the baggage weighing you down. Proverbs 28:13Every human whether committing sexual sins or not needs to confess their sins. Everyone accepting God will start a sanctification process, a new way of life. Yours may look different initially because of the nature of your sins, but take heart. Once you confess your personal sins to God and ask forgiveness for them, you are restored to perfect fellowship and communion with Him.1 Thessalonians 4:3 1 John 1:9Be specific in your confession, but don't beat yourself up. Acknowledge what you've done. God knows and He is ready to receive you. Confess to others (like your SheRecovery meeting). Hearing yourself own up to moral failure to other safe people is a good foundation to keep you from making excuses about why you have sinned. James 5:16As long as you are alive on this earth, you will have sin. If you should slip up, stop and confess your sin to God. Do not allow the enemy to lie to you and cause shame. God does not shame, He merely reveals, so you can confess and start over. He will strengthen you.Resources Referenced:90 Days to Wholeness™ coloring devotional workbook on Amazon90 Days to Wholeness™ for FREE on YouVersionEnroll in SheRecovery Virtual MeetingsLifeRecovery Bible SheRecovery Facebook GroupSchedule Free Consultation (Counseling)Thank you for listening to the SheRecovery Podcast - a resource of SheRecovery.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with those who you think will enjoy it too. And be sure to subscribe to never miss a new episode. Visit SheRecovery.com/podcast to access the listener notes for this episode as well as to access our Patreon page. You can show your support of the SheRecovery Podcast and SheRecovery.com by becoming a patron. Patrons receive exclusive content, recovery tools, and even SheRecovery merch that is not found anywhere else. Thank you for your support and we hope you will join us again next week for a new episode of the SheRecovery Podcast. Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/sherecovery)

This is about providing obvious value to your Amazon customers, so they'll remember you and remember your brand.Remember, you have to dig the well before you're thirsty.Guys, welcome to the latest episode of the Post Purchase ... podcast.We're so excited to talk to you today about sticks Strategies for your Business. Now, when I say stick strategy Shod, what am I talking about?Know, it's easy for us, Seth as Amazon sellers to sit back and just assume the Amazon will just continue to send us fires every day and they will for the most part.But when you say stick strategy, this means how do I get the customer to stick with my brand to re-order my product?to go back to my Amazon listing and allow us to engage with them to promote future products? Or promote the same product more than once.In other words, stick strategies allows us to continue to sell more of the same product to the same list by getting them to, quote, unquote, steak after the sale. And there are a lot of ways that you, and I discovered how to do this today, specifically.I think, we're gonna talk to talk to folks about how to use product instructional videos, product, constructional, PDF downloadable, digital content, that delivers tremendous value, that's obvious to the buyer. It's not about us, the seller. It's not about You said it's about those who purchase your product through Amazon.And it's about you providing ongoing value to enhance my experience as a customer. That's how we'll get your customers to stick around and do more business with you.So, Yeah.And so I guess the first hurdle in having any customers stick is having them be satisfied enough not to return the product, not to be so upset that they leave you a negative review. Which is kind of like, you know, two huge benefits of providing them better customer experiences.You make more money because less people will return the product. You get better ranking, because less people return the product and you get better ranking because less people give you bad reviews.2:18So like you said, Shawn, we're gonna be talking about Making your customers.2:23stick to your purchase, stick to your brand by providing more value after that when they buy from me. So I've bought products many times, where there's just no support.2:36And that really hurts the experience when as a seller, we can easily provide something that helps the product give the customer the experience that they were looking for. Give them the benefit that they were seeking when they bought from the drug.2:55Yeah.2:55This is going to be a quick episode, because the idea is simple, but the effectiveness is just amazing.3:02So, you know, this is about providing obvious value to your Amazon customer, so they will remember you and remember your brand.3:11You have to dig the well before you're thirsty.3:13And what I mean by that, Seth, is that it's easy for us to just sit back and assume that things are just fine and dandy put our head in the sand, and we don't have to provide customer service.3:23But if we do, it's taking control. We have to take control of a certain percentage of our business. And save that for a rainy day how many times. I've heard war stories of sellers who are doing an amazing job, they have remarkable products.3:39They provide great support, they have no bad reviews, but for some goofy reason, the so-called Amazon gods will shut off the listing, suspend the account for no reason.3:51Then, as a seller, we have to go in there, fight this battle that we shouldn't ever have to fight, wouldn't it, be nice?3:57If we had a customer list, through our stick strategy secrets, that we can tap into that customer list for more ongoing sales, Maybe a membership program, maybe upsells, cross sells,

In this episode, David and I discuss the dreaded conspiracy theory about the Earth being flat! Apparently I am an "in the closet" flat earther... For the record, I do not believe the Earth is flat. I hope you enjoy and thanks for tuning in!  Check out David's work: Flat Earth Sun & Moon Clock app: https://qrco.de/bbizVA 102 year old Ruth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wt5qSwinIs&list=PLEzivhxtxgbv2hEBOrfkjHnRnpbH9hlXR&index   YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz6s_ScG0PZThdwhKsUFSRw/videos   Please shoot us a comment, rating, and follow us on social media! Check out our website at www.thejuanonjuanpodcast.com IG: @thejuanonjuanpodcast YT: "The Juan on Juan Podcast" TIKTOK: @thejuanonjuanpodcast Stake your Cardano with us at FIGHT POOL at fightpool.io! Thank you for tuning in! Full transcript: 00:00:13Welcome to another episode of the 101 podcast today. I'm your host one. And today we have a special guest, David Weiss. I said it. Right. Right. You did. You got it. Awesome. We're going to be talking about something today that I visited before and it always seems to trigger people for some odd reason when you can the whole thing and in the dog mall around this subject, we're going to talk about a little bit. We might get into religion when I get into conspiracies. And obviously we talked about a conspiracy, but this conspiracy want you talk to people. 00:01:13They lose their ship, but you can come out and say, hey, 9/11 was an inside job with people. Yeah. That is an inside job. The Earth is flat. And God isn't real. It's almost the same. I think so. Where did can you share your your social media or anything that you want to share for the people where they can find your work? And I can post that in the description as well before we dive into it cuz I really want to talk to you about. This is my YouTube is the initials for deep inside the rabbit hole. It's just ditrh the initials for deep inside the rabbit hole and my podcast is the Flat Earth podcast. And I also have an app which will help you understand what the Flat Earth is. Because the people that are upset at what they think it is, don't really, they have a misconception of what it is and they really don't even know what the globe model is. So we're driving to that as we go along and see what 00:02:13And soda kick off the show. This is a question. I asked everybody. 00:02:19First-time guest who is David Weiss? 00:02:23Who is David Weiss? I am, I am a guy at a successful? Businessman. I was in Corporate America. I started my own company about 7 years ago, ran that for Yale five, or six years and the flat-earth kind of got a hold of me. And I and I realized that I got to leave. I walked away from a great company, still a great company. I'm just no longer there and I'm doing this full-time, trying to spread the light of the true Earth to people because as we go along, for those of you that are new to this, you going to throw up your hands and what is the matter after week debunk point? After point after point that you think proves the globe? Is it? What difference does it make? And I'm going to tell you what difference it makes. 00:03:09So, can you give us before we get into all the nitty-gritty stuff. Can you give us obviously Flat Earth. It's in the name, but can you give us the gist and and just a simple breakdown before you get any more deeper into it? What Flat Earth is? What is the Flat Earth model? So 00:03:29Sure, let me get. Let me share my screen here. I'm going to show you a little model of how it works, what it is and it'll take about two minutes. I'll go through it. You can stop me at any time. I'm, can you see that? I cannot get the I bet it up. You got to just activate it. 00:03:49You double check is yes. In the Flat, Earth by Googling it. You ended up with the Flat Earth Society and that showed you a disc floating in space, and a whole bunch of other bullshit. And none of that is what any of us believe. So, that's a gatekeeping government-controlled site to control your mind and make you laugh and flatter. The Flat Earth is like a big lake in Kansas. Imagine a lake ten miles across a circular Lake and inside that Lake. You have all of these islands and all these islands are the continents in the center of the lake. You have a North Pole. Just imagine a big tall magnetic mountain in the center of that Lake and 00:04:39You can Circle the lake. If I turn on this Compass, hear you, can you can Circle the lake East and West. Those are circles like, I'm here in America. And if I want to go west 270°, I'm following my compass. I think I'm going straight, but I'm turning. I'm going to hundred and seventy degrees, West, West, West, West, West West West. I'm back to where I went at circumnavigated. That does not prove that the Earth is flat cuz that works the same on a globe, I can go. You see see see see all the way around back to where I was. I can't even go from you know, the United States in a straight line. I'm going north, north north north north, bypass the center. I'm now going south, even though I'm going in the straight line. I'm over in Japan, Indonesia, and I just crossed over the North Pole. That's not circumnavigation either. That's not proving either. You can do that my ball and I'll Flat Earth. What you can't do on a flat Earth is go sell from let's say I go from Santiago Chile. I go south and Papa. 00:05:39Brand New Zealand, or I go from Johannesburg, and I go south which is anyway, away from the center and pop up over New Zealand. You can't do that on the Flat Earth. And the funny thing is nobody's ever done it. 00:05:52Nobody's ever gone, South circumnavigation, Antarctica, is the highest land on Earth. So it's holding its Shoreline of this world Lake. Here. It is the shoreline of Antarctica that hold in the world, the Waters of the world, and they put some people call it, the ice walls, not the ice wall. Like like the ice wall on Game of Thrones. It's the shoreline and it's higher than all of the other land on Earth. You get there. There's a 200 High foot ice wall and then you get up and there's this ice plane that goes on for hundreds of miles. And then there is a mountain range that's taller than Everest. Okay? That surrounds the whole thing. So what's beyond their? We don't know it's off limits and we can talk about that if you want a little bit. But so you have this, this Salt Lake water lays flat. What is the other at the 70% water? What large bodies of water arrest? Lay flat? 00:06:48So the sun let's meet up circles around once every 24 hours. There's your 24 hour time zone and it lapse the moon. You can see it's getting a little ahead of the Moon there at last the moon, once every 28 days. Okay, and that sets up all of that sets up all of the phases of the moon. But slow it down. And I turn on the Stars, the stars are going at almost the same speed as the Sun, but those fixed stars, all the constellations. They're going slightly faster. So they laughed the sun once a year that way, the sun will move into the the sign. That's right behind it or move into each constellation about once a month cuz it's going slightly faster. So that's why the sun is in a sign for about a month out of the 12 signs throughout the year. So the Stars keep track of the seasons, the moon keeps track of the months that the Sun. 00:07:48Keep track of the hours that the sky is a perfect clock. And if we lived in this crazy nonsensical, beehive heliocentric mess, none of that will work. I will get into that in a minute. So on this app, I can turn on. I could turn on the world time, and this will show you this ring. I'll show you right now. It's 9 a.m. In Eastern Australia and it's 5 a.m. In South Africa, and I'm right here in United States, its 6 p.m. For me and I'll be right beside right? It is my app is called The Flat Earth Sun Moon, zodiac clock app. And the reason I'm pushing this app is because this app will teach you about the Flat Earth cuz Google will not teach you about a date 5 years ago used to build a search and see all the great Flat Earth information out there. But now it's all hidden and you'll get just propaganda. You get Flat Earth Society, you get, none Center get hit pieces. You get National Geographic. 00:08:48Light pieces were there it was where they're clearly lying, but I'm in the app. I have the frequently Asked question page. And you know, you can say you know, hey, where is The Edge or are, you know, what about ships over the rise? And that proves that the Earth is flat or you know, you are all the pilots in on it or if you know why the lie that's going to be? That's the big one. Did you click any one of these? Not up,, not only one video but a whole playlist of videos that answer those questions. So all of your questions are answered their it also has no other other platter show. Other shows that will give you good information on the top right corner. We got Crow Triple 7 radio better than any college University. If you want to learn the ways of the world you have globebusters 24/7 and the last area that stuff about mud floods biblical Flat Earth for people that want to know like how does this relate to the Bible? It's truly amazing. Different playlist for different languages. 00:09:48I'm for your non-english-speaking friends and the store real quick. Let me just show you how The Season's work. And then I'll, I'll stop screen sharing the right now. We're heading to the Isle of the winter. Solstice. The sun will be at its farthest point. Not its lowest point, but its farthest point from us. In the inner North it's going over this outer yellow line on December 21st, and that's the Tropic of Capricorn. We've all heard that but it's not a circle at the bottom of the ball. It's a circle on the Outer Edge, you know, of the tropical Zone. And then six months later. If I jump the sun 6 months in addition to the Future. It'll be over the Tropic of Capricorn, on June 21st, right now, it's June 15th to go to the desk, and it's right over the Tropic of Cancer. I'm sorry. The Tropic of Cancer and it's the inner Northern summer cuz the sun is closer and because it's closer, it looks higher in the sky. We have longer days, just jump back out. 00:10:48To today's date. We're having our winter now because the Sun is far from us. And the outer Southern lands are having their summer. Is very simple. It has nothing to do with despite little tilt of the earth. If you want to talk about that more, the tilt of the earth doesn't, cause he's in. So, here's the last thing on this, on the bottom left. It says, every day. There's a new future video. Yo, you click the video. I just short ones during the week longer ones in the weekend. I say, take the Flat Earth, app challenge, watch a video a day for two weeks and you will know you don't live on a spinning ball flying through an infinite universe and your whole life will change. What happens. What is, I'll get emails from people saying, hey, I watched you on the the, the one on one podcast and I bought your stupid app, and I took the challenge, but I didn't want to wait till I hit that little red button next to the Future video, to go into the archives. And up comes all of all of the videos that were as it loads all of the 00:11:48Videos over the last month and you hit that little hamburger at the top, all of the other months. I haven't slept in two days. My partner thinks I'm insane. I hate you. You know, what do I do now? And I say, welcome to flat and this is the beginning of more. I'm blasting is. If you click the weather up top here, bring to the dark sky. Everybody needs a weather app, all sorts of stuff. You can do with customizable, backgrounds, you going to settings, I can pick a different background. You could also go down and you can share it with a friend. You can check out the T-shirt shop. I got great stuff, including this covid-19 t-shirt, and then I have to pick one of those of us for you do and there's all sorts of ways to customize. I can hide the countdown timer and you just customized, you can customize the way it looks and what it does. It's $2.99. 00:12:47And you get everything. And that's, that's it. And I recommend for those of you that have it, share it with a friend, cuz there's nothing better than turning into a loved one, or a good friend into a flat earther. Would you agree with that? So, that's a lot that I want to ask you about that. Let's, let's talk about this as far as cuz my whole take on this is, obviously it's history. It's his story. So the To the victor, the spoils, and it seems that everybody throughout all of history that has had something else to say, as far as the main narrative is either been killed or pretty much, that's it. Right. So some people over to take others excetera excetera, but the point is, they always try to silence the people who say otherwise from the from the, the main 00:13:47You think so? 00:13:50My issue with the globe. Then again. I have a big ass telescope behind me and I have a picture of a nebula. Cuz I've I've personally I've seen the celestial bodies for 10, right? I've done after he talked to me and and it's just hard for me. And I mean, I said I didn't get episode with with Mark and to begin with. So, 00:14:15What it what are the celestial bodies as far as from the Flat Earth model perspective? Good question. And the answer is because we can't get up there. We don't know how big their, how far they are or what they're made of. We don't know anything. The only thing that you could honestly truthfully say, is that there lights. I don't mean like a lightbulb. I mean their lights because there's light coming off a time. That's all we can say. No, if you think about it, you know, they tell us Mars is Dusty dirty, you know, planet is reflecting sunlight in the Mars's, way farther from the Sun than the Earth are. So the sun is way smaller. So it gets a lot less like the weekend, but somehow that light is able to reflect off the dusty 30 surface and come back and shine down on Earth where Mars looks brighter than any star in the sky. Think about that. It makes zero sense. I'm with you on that because the problem with these conglomerates of of companies in these entities write these governmental entities. And all these corporations is that we're only here. 00:15:15What? From One Source, I can't go up into space and confirm for you that the world is Round, right? I'm only being fed, and I just find it hard to believe that in two weeks. You can undo this whole indoctrination of a full. Let. You know what I mean? So in for the night, the two weeks out here where I where I drove into is that we was talking about the challenge and challenge. Another 2 weeks will tell you, there's something wrong with the ball. I took two weeks and I tried to prove the globe. That's how I became a flat earther. If you take it seriously and try to prove the globe, you're done your toes. You're flat out. What do you want to be your not? I'm a lot of people will just, you know, they can't handle the emotional strain of that. But let's just look at the people that tell us the Earth is a globe. These people right here, these guys, I went to this Dusty dirty ball, the moon. Okay. Well, when we have a full moon, it's this bright. Okay, this bright bright moon, is 00:16:15Did we buy it in the middle of, you know, what away from the city lights at bright? When you light up a, a, a ball with a single-source light, the sun ball, a moon. It has a hotspot, and then it should fade out. But that's not what we see. This moon is lit, edge-to-edge. Almost like there's a light inside of it and it's like a light bulb, but I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm saying, the Moon is not reflecting sunlight. It is its own light. Okay, it is, it is producing a cold light to the whole nother topic. But if you learn about the inverse Square law of light, if you go half the distance to the moon, it's four times as bright. If you go half that distance to the moon, it's 16 times as bright. If you go half that distance, it's 64 * 2 quadruple. Every time you have the distance. Okay, let's call the inverse Square law. Light in the same thing is when you go away, it cuts down by by four times. 00:17:15So, if you look at the moon at the brightness, it is, if it was one Lumen, which is this is this moon is way brighter than one Lumen and you went all the way up to a hundred miles to the Moon. It would be like 10 million lumens, which makes your eyeballs and cook, you okay. Know your argument is, they wouldn't have been able to take that picture on there because they would be at the light source is it would be well, know, if it was reflecting sunlight, whatever. I'm not saying what it is. I'm saying for us to see the moon, the brightness that we see it. It would have to almost be the, it would have to be 10 million lumens ever, get the 20 million lumens, whatever it is. It's ridiculous number and right here, you know, if he's in a Dusty dirty ball, so that shows deception right there. Okay. 00:18:03Here's two photos of from Pluto. Write the number of Jupiter. I'm sorry. Thank you for correcting me. So, so, the first one is NASA took this in 2016. At the book. We saw these amazing Aurora's. Look at this Aurora, we talk. I mean, you have to laugh. Even if you don't know how to use, Photoshop on what a crappy job. That is what the problem is. The one, the picture that the NASA, these are both NASA photos from 2 years earlier. If you ladies over each other, every single little crinkle storm. Cloud is exactly the same and that's the telling us that those bands are spending a different directions. Those storms are moving that. It's a cash is liquid crazy planet and nothing changed in two years. It would change in 2 minutes guy, that tells you NASA is lying. Did you know that? 00:19:01Pluto, the planet it was discovered the same near Pluto. The dog was created right now. I don't have the the Pluto picture but handy but I'll do it. This is the picture that was on everyone's iPhone was called the Blue Marble and everybody thought it was a photo of the Earth. But if you look at all of these clouds are stepping repeat that, now, those are the same clouds the same clouds. Okay, the same clouds in there. They're these are just some of them and the guy the NASA visual artist that made it Robert Simmons said in an interview that he made it from strips of day that he created any hidden commands. Do you a lot? So they admit they have no photos of our Earth. 00:19:47Okay, they admit they they lie about those, the photos of other planets. What else do you need to know that everything? The NASA tells you is a lie. I can get behind that. I'm a hundred percent behind that. I've talked about the the government being, it's not out of the norm. We we've caught the government line before we've caught the government doing fuckedupshit to its people. Before we leave. That's been proven MK Ultra. You have the tuskeegee experiment. You have the government trying to insinuate Wars with the Bay of Pigs. You have the 2003 Baghdad the weapons of mass destruction. That's a whole another conspiracy theory on its own. 00:20:28But why would, what is, what is it about the round earth? And this is what I always think about, just to go deeper into what is it about the rounder that they will? Why would they hide that? Why would they? They keep the glass and intentionally hide the, the the, you know, the the Earth? Why would they mislead us to think that the Earth is round vs. A flat model? What is the the reasoning behind that? We have to go there right now we have to cuz when I think about all this everything you're saying I'm 100% on board with you. I guess. This is what I talk about all the time on the show. I want to go deeper and I want understand on a deeper level for this is the latest picture of Pluto. This one I'm pointing to okay, the Cassini spacecraft. I think it was that doesn't matter cuz they're all fake. I was going at 60 thousand miles an hour way out at Jupiter, where we're at that distance to the Sun looks like a star and it was well enough lit at 60 thousand miles an hour to take that photo, which happens to have this little outline on it, which kind of resembles Pluto more than just 00:21:28Okay, this is an official photo from NASA. Right? I believe that that NASA the whole reason up their name masses because they couldn't name themselves. The Nazis right. Date-date. They could intentionally say Nazis. They had a wall. I mean, what's the closest agency at the Hollywood studio? They don't want anything in the space except little model rockets and blimps that's a whole nother show. But, you know, they feed us cartoons. They, they admit, they don't have any photographs. They never use of the word, the name, the word photograph. They use the word picture and image, because those are photographs and they hate lying, but they're, they're deceiving us. So we can jump into. Why, why would they lie? And the answer is because they want you to feel insignificant. They want you to think that you are a random accident. 00:22:28In a infinite Universe spinning out of control on a speck of dust with billions of others of specks just like yours where an asteroid could take you out any second where we sources are low, where there's no out, no other place to go and you are powerless, accident, freak of nature versus knowing that you are at the center of creation that you are special, that you are powerful and that we are here. Having a Soul's Journey where there is more, there's probably more land. There's more continents. There's other worlds across the Earth, plane know, extraterrestrials are people from the extra Terra across the land Beyond Antarctica. 00:23:20Yeah. Yeah, I can get behind. It's like what's that movie? The Truman Show that I was going to say that there's nothing else to discover Truman. It's all been discovered. No hands a quote that he says that he doesn't look at the very end. It's a you only believe whatever you're giving are you, are you believe the world is presented to you. 00:23:44Let me find that Cobra. I love that much, a really good movie. And so you talked about the, the spaceships and the satellites. So what is it bad? That they're launching up into? Is it still considered the atmosphere? Can we call it the atmosphere? Or I do believe there's a dome, and I think there's some sort of do more roxies. You can count that. You can say atmosphere. I don't need to change that word. Some people call it the atmos plane, but there's you know, how they tell us. Space is a vacuum. Okay, and that if there's a hole in the spaceship you all the air gets sucked out and you got home, okay, but 00:24:29It breaks the second law of Thermodynamics. The second law of Thermodynamics says, you can't have high pressure next to low pressure. Let alone a vacuum without a physical barrier. Okay, you can't do it. So we live in a high-pressure world then and there next to a infinite, most powerful vacuum that we can't even recreate on Earth without the NASA. Vacuum chamber adult has 11 foot thick walls, of lead, you know, so it doesn't impact implode on itself and they still can't get it to the vacuum that they say space is why doesn't the vacuum of space? Just sucked all the air off the earth. And the only after the globe Believers have is gravity, gravity is holding down the air, you know, when it gets thinner and thinner until there's no, where it's bullshit because that any 00:25:15Altitude, I can get a straw, I can point it down. I can just live the week, vacuum of my lungs, sucking some air or even suck up some water, which is heavier than air and pull it up and away from Gravity effortlessly. Okay. So the gravity is not holding the air down, we are in. Now, the way I look at it is you will see a bubble on the bottom like you do if your pot of water and you got a bubble on the bottom, like when you're boiling water through the bubbles on the bottom live in that bubble, you know, we we I think that's space is liquid of some sort. At least that's what it appears to be. That's what, y'all many things point to the Bible on the first place of the page of the Bible. Not that I'm a Bible guy. But it says that the god separated the waters from The Waters. At with the firmament. There's lots of evidence of it. I don't believe space is a vacuum though. So do we actually need a physical barrier? I don't know. I don't know. 00:26:14Yeah, and that, that quote was we accept the reality of the world with which were presented. It's as simple as that and that stuff from The Truman Show also movie. And so yeah, there's also the plasma universe theory, which should I just hang of it? It's almost like when you said then when you when you separate water and oil, it doesn't make. So you've got that barrier. Almost. Is that what you trying to get out like that? If you look at the, the bubble on the bottom of a pot of water, there's really no physical barrier there. It's just the water separating from the water below, you know, from the bottom of the pan, Which is the Earth and it's holding up the water. The pressure is holding up the, what I think about this, When does the, when does it rain it rains? When we have a low pressure, a hurricane is really low pressure and then the water really play it. Well, that's measurable. When there's low pressure. There's a lot of rain comes in. So maybe that water is coming from the cloud. I mean, you've been in a real heavy rain storm. That's a lot of 00:27:14Get a bucket of water 5 gallon bucket of water. That's heavy is fuck. Okay. Well those clouds that planes can fly right through. You know, any of the pounds of water. Are you fucking kidding, you know, how much, how much a cloud weighs millions and millions and millions of tons. Yeah, and it's like, I didn't fucking floating above you. I was, I was out fishing with a friend of mine. So, you know how much like always? I was like, I don't know, we Google, it was like why you said millions of tons or something like that on my next time you fly through a pile. Cloud watch the windows on the plane. They barely get. Damn. Yeah. Okay, you're not flying through water. You know, that it's it's nonsense. So there is a transition up there between the waters above and the reality blow again. I don't know how it works. But when there's low pressure these, these these rivers of water come out of the sky, and then they hit those high winds and they get scattered. And you have the Gardens Denver. 00:28:14Hurricane, it comes down and sheets and rivers. It's crazy,. Florida, man. So it's not just floating above your head willy-nilly. So again, and they're lying about everything. They're lying about the water looking to tell us that the water started soon. There's not a water shorted, you know, the clouds that the evaporation condensation and precipitation is secondary water. Primary water is below us and above has its infinite in nature yoga. Be discovered primary water and was pumping it all over Africa until we blew it up. That's why he's dead, you know about the river. I didn't know about that because it gets Island somewhere another yet. So this is what wars are all about. Wars are about stopping people from knowing our true Origins. I'm going to be for 2 minutes. 00:29:14So good after he was in his search for oil and is always company country. Discovered an infinite Christine ancient Waters deep underneath the desert until he started, the largest aquifer project in the history of the known history of mankind, and he was building these. These Aquaphor pipes, you know, that you can literally drive trucks through. You have dug into the desert and he was pumping water all across Africa. He was any family that wanted to start a farm, he would give them, you know, tractors seeds, land, water, show everything you need everything you need to grow organic farm and is organic farms are popping up all over Africa. He was going to feed all of Africa, it took him forty years to complete this and then Hillary Clinton and gang went in and blew it up with the pleated uranium bombs the guy. 00:30:06It's on my channel ditrh. There's a video called just look up. Khadafi. Great man-made. River 5-minute video. You'll get, it'll, it'll tear you apart when you see what? What really happened and that is being wiped from the Internet. It's so hard to find the information about these farm. So happy we were all shown a, I'm a little older than you just. He was a horrible man, and he spoke in the UN and you I don't understand whatever language is Biggs livian and and that he's got that angry. Look on his face. He's able dictator were called and everyone just thought he was horrible stories about him. Raping girls. All nonsense. Khadafi walk through his treats and people hug him, not for fear of death because they love him. He was the great brought in my mind, the greatest leader of all time and his his speech that the news put off as just as horrible Decatur basically was saying that the new 00:31:06Call daughter is going to take over the world with a virus in the shell, in the, in the 20th, and 19th century by Century. Whatever yard, where is that? What is it? Just check out my channel. I have a Khadafi playlist, the, and if you can, also check out, I think it's on stoplookthink.com, and under a moammar Kadafi page. Nothing. Wild. It's on fucking real, but what an awesome guy and he was pissed. And so he's the first one that broke away from the petrodollar, you know, because we had a deal that all oil had to be traded through the u.s. Dollars and he's like, fuck that and he was doing it for Golden are so that along with, you know, discovering primary watering and feeding the world. They they couldn't have that because if people could sustain themselves, they wouldn't need the government. Well, that's why I again Nikola Tesla was onto something maybe. 00:32:06Add some tartarian knowledge of some sort. He was able to tap into the other The Ether, right? And that's why JP Morgan cut off his funding and Addison took all the credit for his work. You know, I'm familiar with that. But a question because I like when when conspiracy theories and our arguments conspiracy arguments, when they when they connect is Hollow Earth and flat related. Can they be so holler? Or if you thinking of a hollow ball with the world inside a ball again? That's ball thinking you have to clear that out of your head. What makes more sense is? Is there an underworld? Very possibly, I believe that there is I mean, there's definitely mud flooded underworld. What's that? So, you know, how do you know everybody in their science books and says the, you know, the world? And the there's a cross-section of the Earth where it shows all the different layers in the molten mantle, and your magnetic core. 00:33:06Bullshit, it's all made-up nonsense because the deepest hole ever dug on a flat Earth or bullet. Doesn't matter the deepest hole ever dug. And what is that? What happened at 8 Miles? They hit an impenetrable barrier, an impenetrable barrier. So, maybe that's the firmament of the underworld. Okay, and there's some crazy stories of like screaming noises like them. Hell coming out of there again. It wasn't there, don't know. But I I've heard a recording of it and it is really well done. Bakery of something. Or if it's real. It's sounds just like what he'll would be. But 00:33:47Maybe that's where the other one was. If you think about the Flat Earth build mock-up, it makes more sense that there is layers underneath us in layers. Above us, the highest rocket that was ever shot up was the go-fast rocket went. 73 miles is going super fast spinning and all of a sudden when kerplunk into a thicker medium, I don't say is water but it's thicker biscuits medium, it had. And then while it was floating and turning from Arizona, by the way, was shot in Arizona. It's all the moon. Well, the problem is, the moon was directly over Australia. What happened? Okay. 00:34:26How quickly did they turn that off? People didn't notice it, and it's out. It's still on the internet, but that wasn't done by an amateur rocket. So, you know, I don't know what they put out there on purpose. What? What flips out there. I think that honestly was a slip, but again, I'm not there. So I don't know. 00:34:50so, 00:34:52And that you'd know more about this than me. Cuz again, I've I've drove into Fighters before but not nothing too crazy. Just enough to just it just I know I just enough to be dangerous, right? Because I'm I'm up to par with with religion and there's different depictions and there's all these priests 1600 map 1600 the year 6. Inner maps that show different parts of the world that aren't around anymore and they just they attribute that to two errors. We have obviously the tartarian argument where there was this big Empire, but then after that Sequoia was dirt, they all committed errors that they did. They really? Or that all these wars that were happening all at the same with it. All happening, all at the same time because the whole thing with, with the government and we can we can get into that as far as as and again, it gets kind of controversial cuz you start talking about the Jesuits and all that shit, but at the end of the day time itself, Joseph Gallagher, which created 00:35:51Gallagher and chronology literally created the AD and BC system. That was a Jesuit priest, but I'm saying it was a man. You know what I mean? It was one guy who created and is able to keep it cuz how would, you know, like I saw this this article yesterday said that there's a computer that can compute 2.6 billion years and four minutes. What do you know, what 2.6 billion years is? How do you know that in one light year? There's 7 trillion miles. How is it that the Palladium star system is the closest system to the Earth by two hundred light-years away. But then it all looks all the same. You can have a map of the Galaxy. They literally came out with a map of the Galaxy but you can't figure out covid on Earth. Get it. So it's all nonsense. If you look at it, cartoon series equations, and lies it. It's not that you said you had a picture, you know, of the stolen. So Galaxy know you have a picture of some light up in the sky with in the earth system everything we see. 00:36:50In the sky is within the Earth system, you know, they say that that we've known for 500 years ago. They figured it out with sticks and Shadow as well. Guess what? Aristophanes is a made-up story inserted into Rockefeller textbooks in the 1980s. That story didn't exist before the 1980s. Okay. It's it's all nonsense. I interviewed a woman in January of this year hundred and two years old. I was interviewing her about the World Fair's. What's that? No, she went to it and she remembered it only should yeah. Yeah, so I was talking to her and she also was telling me about her 5th birthday party with Susie was upset about the coconut cake or whatever and Susie had a pink dress on. And I'm like, wow, I don't remember my fifth birthday and I was like, wow, she was around back, weird, weird interviewed a woman from Croatia who said that she was taught that the Earth was flat in the 1930s. 00:37:47Anna in school, so I said, where I have to where she went to school. She told me the name of the school, her teacher kindergarten teacher, who was in her class. She remembered all of this shit. And I said, what did they teach you in? Science class about the Earth? And I had never mentioned, but I think she goes. They taught me. The Earth was flat, but then they changed it a couple years later in the 1920s in America, in Connecticut in public schools. They were teaching flatter everyone in the world. Knew the Earth was flat in the 1920s and it wasn't until World War 1 World War 2 and all the other nonsense has put out there that they destroyed history. The world's fairs were I believe were built by tataryan. Okay, and it was the, it was the then then they destroyed those amazing incredible building Acres of this, beautiful architecture, destroyed. And there's there's so much proof out there. Still that will teach you about the Toria in the in the app on that second page on the more resources page. 00:38:47I'm right corner. There's a tutorial button, amazing stuff in there and it it changes all the time. So anybody that gets that check it out here and I got some maps different ideas of what the flat earth looks like you owe this blue one, right? Here, shows an outer ring outside of our world with more confidence. Okay, and perhaps the Sun and the Moon out there, some speculate, as Mars and Venus, Mars is a son in the outer realm, okay. 00:39:18So again, but the reason I asked you about if Hollow earther or flattered that they were late because obviously Antarctica, I always found it. Interesting that they would limit us to write this. This place that nobody owns. Nobody can ever own because of this treaty that they signed nobody's ever done. You can't go out there unguided why you can't venture out and, and there's even talks about pyramids and all this craziness out there and it's like, why would they, why would they do that? Like, why would they, you know what, I mean? Yeah, so and Antarctica, they don't want you to go there because if you go there you will understand that you don't live in a ball. The answers are not entirely. So the people that that are are having cognitive dissonance right now. I'm screaming every 1,000 people to go there 15 different companies where you can Charter a yacht charter you can go on a 00:40:18For of Antarctica, what was 15 companies are owned by the same guy. So there's really only one company while posing as 15 different companies. It would cost you ten to twenty thousand dollars to go for just a couple of days. You go there they'll bring you right to the edge of the shoreline will just bring you to the Shoreline and then we'll show you some penguins will bring you a couple miles out South to show you a pole in the ground will tell you it's a ball but you can't verify it. Cause compasses don't work in GPS, doesn't work and and that's it. There's no independent travel. The Antarctic treaty was made in 1957 and all the countries in the world. With all the bullshit going on in the world signed on and say we must protect the ice and the Penguin. We can't drop a cigarette butt down here. It has to stay pristine, right? That's insane, because environmentalism wasn't even a thing. And, you know, to this very day we can cut down the Amazon forest and plant palm oil trees. It's it's absolute insanity. This treaty is stays in. 00:41:18Play and cannot be questioned by any individual or any Corporation until the year 2041, right? You can't even in the treaty. It says, you can't question the treaty, OK? Google, you can't just go to Antarctica. Eat logistically is almost, it's impossible. But if you want to plan a exploration and then. You got to fill out a ton of paperwork. If I see about $200,000 in applications, and then when they deny you, they keep your money. Okay. So it is we have a video on the app under the 21 questions on there. What about Antarctica? It's called. Sorry, Antarctica is closed and one of our researchers was a lawyer. He did all the research to all of documents and showed you why it's impossible to go to Antarctica and explore independently. 00:42:12Send another question. So that's the South Pole or Antarctica. Obviously, we can't go there. 00:42:19What what's the reasoning? A 10in? What's the reason behind the north pole? Shifting? And then supposedly they have to adjust that every so often. What's up with that? Have you ever have you ever seen the North Pole? She has been told that the people that have Tonya Colvin to think they're the ones that told you. Okay? 00:42:40Wow. Yeah, the thing I posted on my Instagram was like the same people that want you. I want you to believe the elections weren't rigged are the same people that want you to believe that Jeffrey Epstein killed himself to the same, but the reptilian ask people that that that rule everything and they just sit there and is is the United Nations Flag. Is that Flat Earth? Is that right there? I mean the in-your-face don't go check out this this map. I'm trying right here. This is the world record Guinness Book of World Record for circumnavigation. If you follow that trail there you basically just goes down into into Antarctica and then turns around and comes back. This is let me see what it looks like on a real map. Okay. So this is this is the the the trip that they went. So well. It's coming up. So they went from, they went from the North Pole, you know, they went all the way down south. They went down to Antarctica. 00:43:40I went out a couple hundred miles or whatever that distance is a turned around came back, then they went cuz it backwards so it's hard to make. It went all over all the way over here to New Zealand and then went back to United States. I came early Point not to do this and then up and around. And that counts is circumnavigation. That's the world record for circumnavigation. That's the actual path that they took. Who was that person? That did that? I'm, I forget the name. I had you could look it up and I think it's called the pilot or something. It was paid for by the elite. It's all bulshit said, nobody crosses over Antarctica, you know, if if you want to fly from New Zealand. And if I was going from from south from the tip of Santiago South America, and go over to Australia, which is right behind me here. So, Australia 00:44:35I am, I can see the name all the way up on all the way back down. That's on a ball. That makes absolutely no sense. When the truth is, this is the, the real path. This is the same flight. Pass on that y'all converted on a flat Earth Map. It's a straight line. That's how you go to those places. There's also another route that they take, they do sometimes go around the outside around the around the long way because there is super high-speed winds out there, a mail to 200 miles an hour plus that they can get a Tailwind on. And then they have these special planes that can fly you home at 6, 700 miles an hour. Now that bread that brings you up to around 3 to 9 or 2 miles an hour and all of that make sense, you know, with these flight times. So, so I don't know if you answer my question. What are they launching up into the 00:45:35The flattest, fear, whatever it is, you really want to trigger your audience. Right? I mean this is what this shows all about triggering people. Yeah, so I can say I'm a big Elon Musk fan, I have stocks in Tesla. I love, I love who I don't like to think that he is. I don't like to think that they're using project starting to initiate Project Blue beam and to use it as a, a projection system that they already have. So maybe is NASA and all the space agency's because they talked about needing a space force is all this for the, for the government to launder money. Or what the fuck is all? I can tell you. What was the question you asked me months ago that we're going to look into those rockets work at? We're going to get there in a second. So this is official picture of Earth from Mass. 00:46:35Okay, and you can see we got the United States here and I represented what we're seeing on the face of this globe with this circle here on this map. OK, Google and is on the other side of that ball. 00:46:52Okay, and and and Elon Musk is involved in that seal. Unless he's the CEO of Tesla cost of a Tesla automotive. He's the CEO of the largest tunneling. Companies, the CEO of the one of the most successful solar power companies. Easy was the CEO of PayPal. He's the CEO of 00:47:1208 took over fucking NASA. Okay, he's building rockets that are going to. There's no way a team of 20 people could handle what he supposedly handling. It's all bulshit. He's a, he's a puppet. He's are an idol to worship. He's a moron. You heard what he said? When he lost his stupid, fake are in the space, right? If that looks fake as fuck, but I don't know. What did he say? He said, you can tell it's real because it looks so fake. We would have better CGI, right? So I have mixed feelings about when it comes to Elon Musk because I feel that I feel that cuz he's, he's come on. He said a lot of weird things as far as I quit covid and the simulation that you behind him. Again, let it's like the Flat Earth Society. They throw out a little little piece like all know. He's a good guy. Throws out some bullshit. You know, it it's it's not that 00:48:08Wow, I mean, I love you. I love you mama. And then how about the other guys? You got ya Virgin. Galactic you have also Amazon with Jeff and we break down these rocket launches. They do their it's so it's it's so bad that love the CGI. It's so fucking horrible. It's so horrible. It's unbelievable. These burnikel Landings Landings. On the Drone ships. They cut out, you know, before it landed ten stories tall and weighs like 20, tons, or forty tons empty and a little bit of fire and a little milk. Crates are moving around, you know, are going to are going to steer it on to the tilting and this drone ship. That's Heating in the waves and it's going to land, upright. Are you kidding me? You couldn't. Cuz I'm in Florida. We have plenty of space in. Or what am I looking at? 00:49:08I'm seeing this thing fly in the air and go up towards because I have a video that I can pull up when I'm talking so. 00:49:20I'm going to get into that in a second, but I'm just going to bring up this picture first. Okay, this is we're all traumatize where every kid in the country was wheeled to television into their classroom, when the Challenger what took off and the teacher on there and everything and it blew up and every kid was traumatized and it could kick the can down the road because you have work. And I will tell them space by eating all the year 2000 and in 2010, and in 2014, and 2024, now, and whatever. So, all of these guys died, except we kind of found their twins that have the same name. They all were the universe him. Okay, they say they have an idea that they're not, the person that there is a identical twin. Okay, this guy, Richard Scobee, he's got a company where the logo on his company is a flying cow with smoke coming out of his ass. That does the same Loop Dee Loop that the smoke Trail of the Challenger did. Okay. 00:50:20I mean he's trying to tell you something there but here's the thing. All right, so maybe not to like hiring. Astronauts that have twins that they could study like bone density of the one that went to space in the one that didn't post yet, but I'll give him that none of the twins showed up at any of their twins funeral. 00:50:40None of them so they felt Krista Macaulay at a funeral and her identical twin did not show up at the funeral. Wait till they had that it's proven. They have identical twins. Well, you can deny it but that y'all do it with those videos. Again. We have the videos, this this woman right here. She is a law professor at Yale. Okay, bonds, and this is her when she went up, and there's a video of both of them doing speeches. Yo, her, when she was going to get into space and her at the as a lot better. If they have the same dimple, the same twerking their tongue, the same teeth, the same voice, the same hand Jesters, the same everything. Okay, there's zero chance. It's not the same person. Right? But these people are scamming, you. So what goes out? Let's go back to, you know, what goes up. This is hurting. My this is hurting my head David because I bet if 00:51:39You're talking about kids and this is just NASA. Okay, we got to keep in mind that all these other countries has space programs. What that mean? Why are all in bed together? Is this all just a live-action role-playing game and they're just they're just fucking with us and all these wars and all this shit is is just it's how many battles were? How many people died in an in the battle of the Cold War? 00:52:08I don't got a clue. There's no battles. Nobody died. There was no clothes washed. There is nothing. It's all, they're all in on it together. If you look, now, the Chinese just landed a one-man Craft on the moon, the other day just recently, and they got dust and it came back. Did you watch it? It it what looks worse than the original? Atari space invader. Okay. It's a dumbest crap ever and people just buy it. People hear about it. They don't go and look at it. And when they look at it, I don't know what happens to their brains. They melt because it's the worst crap ever. It's worth South Park. Could do better animation. All right, it was it the Chinese, the Chinese landed, landed on the moon, just the other day and it if you watch the video, it's it's the most pathetic crap ever. So. So let's talk about, let's talk about what what goes up in. 00:53:08Space. All right, so 00:53:14They're launching something because you were seeing these things. Lots. But if you watch the, the one you if you see something completely different than when you see on television and when you watch on television, watch just go look up, any launch, there's three or four or five cuts before the thing basically, you know, clears the power. They never show you one clip. It's a movie, right? They throw your clothes out that far that is up in the air and zoom in on it. They never show you a One-Shot from the ground all the way up. Okay, and you can make excuses all you want but they never show you that this and they also go up. They care about the go out over the Bermuda, Triangle, restricted Waters and they either crash them or they blow him up in the sky. I don't know what they do, but they're out of you very quickly within a minute. You're watching CGI. On the computer is on the television. It's nonsense. 00:54:08The space shuttle. Never had any people on it. The space shuttle. This is this is the one that's going to freaking kill people and this is where they're going to, they're going to short-circuit, but I have videos coming already ready, you know the external tank on the space. Shuttle the Big Orange tank. Yeah. 00:54:27You know, when the space shuttle takes off at rolls over on its back. So the tanks on the top side and the space shuttles on the bottom side,. Why I rolled over? I don't know because that external tank is a blimp. 00:54:41Get the fuck out of here is the largest user of helium in the world. Okay. It's a blimp ever. See how slow it takes off. Okay. Yeah. 00:54:52It's a rocket assisted blimp at that. Sometimes they yell, they launched. They don't want anything. Sometimes they lost a miniature. You're too far away to tell the size that you really don't know. But those are blimps and if you watch the tank, when it disconnects, it's floating in the sky like a Macy's day parade, balloon, right? I have videos that will show you all of it. Your I can pull up a video right now. If you want you want me to do, I'm just trying to process it. So so love you. Let's talk about this. Talk about this. I was going to say that when Joe Rogan had this business, like I have this astronaut on the bald guy. Forgot his name. Mark Kelly on Earth. He said he's married to Gabby Gifford the one that got big shot in the head. 00:55:52He said he said, would you ask him? He said cuz one time he's like, I went up there one time, and there wasn't this window and then I came back the next time and that the window was there, and Joe Rogan said, who, put who put the window up there. He was like, he like freaked out and 00:56:12He just change the subject and there is also I talked to Mark about it. There was a this this I forgot the story that they wrote that there was a hole in the space station, but then if there was the vacuum where what would happen with the whole? What caused the whole? You know what I mean? Maybe there isn't a vacuum because it's not real. All right, and if you really think about it, when they have they shipped up, parts for the space station, what year? Was it? Even built? And I don't even know that shit. There was a hole that that hit hit the space station just like last year. A couple years ago. I forget how far out long ago was and Mark Kelly. I know I forget which astronaut tweeted a picture of it. Okay. 00:56:56It was whatever there was a picture. So he tweeted a picture of it and they fix it with duct tape and gum, right? Guess what? That hole is the album cover of a band that was about 10 years earlier. Okay. It's that one of them is the one Mark Kelly tweeted. 00:57:20And the other one is an album cover from 10 years earlier. 00:57:24Wait, so it cuz it says they're 24th released 2014 years ago. 00:57:34That's the thing. I mean, it looks the same, but here's a thought. The same rephrase that sends it is the same. Okay, it's the same picture. It's the same picture, NASA is lying, again. They lie about everything. But are there so sophisticated. What were they fuck up with that? I needed. This is what David I talked about the poor. Not that bright. Check this out. They fucked up like that. What I'm thinking that they did it on purpose because they're laughing, because guess what? They put this out dishes. This alone should destroy not to 100% biggest 65 million dollars a day spell. Even though, Elon Musk took over with SpaceX. They still get 65 million dollars a day. I don't know what the hell they're doing. This. Should the joint after, but people don't care. Tesla, put his fucking car into space. That pretty cool. That's pretty cool, right? 00:58:34Homes in the world. 00:58:36Of course, there's the wall over the place. That's what's the worldwide company. Don't you think they'd have a freaking poster of that in the showroom. Hey, this car went into space freaking ad campaign, ever the cover of omni magazine Time, Magazine Newsweek fail, Popular Science, National Geographic. It's not in any magazine. It's not in any car dealership. It's know where they want to bury those pictures so fast because it's all bulshit. You don't send that car up and I'm not use that. That's an impossibility. 00:59:10I thought I saw it on a magazine cover. I was like, the time I can be no possible that it was on one magazine cover, but it wasn't on the big boys. Right? And then nobody covered it because it was such crap, you know, people say, you know, what, what about the space station there? Their, they're floating there playing with stuff and augmented reality. No luck luck. Check this out. I'm on the space station. I'm floating on the space station. Okay, and then, they have things all demented reality of contact lenses and sometimes just monitors and they can manipulate things in space. Right? It's not a theory, they do that. We even have caught them passing something, and the guy was passing his hat and the guy missed it, and he thought he had it and he put it on the Shelf, but he missed ya. Ya, ya. Ya is this is astronaut to get so butt hurt, when people call him out on it. Who was it? Lance Armstrong or something that Armstrong? 01:00:11It was just a sore throat. Punch somebody in the face, Neil Neil Armstrong email and he's guys won't do that. Cuz they know the about the by putting their hand. On the Bible says that I'll give you $5,000 cash right now. We had the money that and just where he walked on the moon and then you can give it to a charity. How nice? Is that? Would not do it. I have David David Nunez Rodriguez, David Rodriguez. I was interviewing and he's he is a professional boxer and he met a Buzz Buzz, Aldrin. And he knew that the moon landing was faked. And he goes, he, he got buzzed look like semi alone for me to go to a buzz because I know you never went to the moon. I know you're at the moment and Buzz smiled at him, patting him on the back because you're smart kid and he walked away. 01:01:06Yeah, but how much credibility do these stories have? It's like Alex Jones talking about Buzz Aldrin. How he told him about the monolith, you know, I get it, you know, you can tell stories all day, but it's, you know, if you went to the Moon. 01:01:27You're the first guy on the moon and not only, did you go to the Moon, you bought a fucking dune buggy and a set of golf clubs. You played golf. You wrote a dune buggy. You had a great time. You're hopping all around you came back there. Or would you recite? Yeah. I mean, I've seen the pictures where they're just like, you know, they would you be so men. 01:01:53I want to get into into. Imma see, you said that these Venus might be a a a star from another system outside of the, the ring. The nordics also have a Had A peculiar system of what they interpreted the world to be almost sort of a flat Earth model, really of. You can't deal with the disc and then you have the different worlds up above that. Where do you stand when it comes to the Multiverse and different dimensions and all this stuff, and Aliens, the greys Bigfoot. What where do they play a role in? 01:02:31And flattened in the Flat Earth model. So, you know, aliens, y'all people say, those are demons, whatever. Aliens are extraterrestrials two different things extraterrestrials come from the extra pair of Beyond Antarctica. That makes perfect sense to me. They could be from the Lands Beyond Antarctica. That's probably speak English. They can get here in a date rap, you know, it's not it's not a big thing. 01:03:02L is Bigfoot, I haven't seen anybody that yellow one of our fellow researchers who lives in The Boondocks of South Carolina. She said, she's has experienced some things and she did a great video, exposing me all possible Bigfoot or whatever his help again. Probably believe it. I have no proof. It's not something I can really speak to with any solid information. And then sorry, if the, if the round earth model is fake. 01:03:34What else is fake as far as cuz I mean this can drive a person insane. I mean I can see why you would say 1 1. What is that one video a day or two a week isn't a video day? One video day and and it'll, it'll wake you up to this reality. Here's the problem me again. People don't like change, you know, and then let her rip the entire floor out from underneath you. But once you get over the being pissed, when people say, you know, there's nothing I can show you. Dave, that would convince you, you never willing to change your mind, but that's what I changed my mind. I used to believe in the freaking Globe, right? I made the biggest change in history, you know, because I realized I didn't know anything about the globe. So, you know people that defended low birthday, think about her. If there's a disk in space with other circular plan is global young spiracle planets, that's not sent nothing like what we think. They think that the Earth is rising to cause the gravity. That's not true. That's Flat Earth Society nonsense. 01:04:33They they they don't know how big the Earth is. They don't know how fast it's spinning. They don't know all the Motions of the earth. Do you know the Motions of the Earth? 01:04:43No, do the Motions of the Earth are crazy on the, on the spinning ball or a jumped past here at the spinning. A crazy amount of miles per hour is 1000 miles per hour. So that means, when you're watching the sunset, you have to believe that you're falling over backwards faster than the speed of sound and that's making the sun appear to go down. Okay, that's the slowest motion, what? I'm going to tell you while you're spinning faster than sound your orbiting, the Sun at 66600 miles per hour, how fast that isn't the answer is absolutely, do not do any of the fathom. That's because I can't comprehend why nobody can while you're orbiting and Spinning, You Are Chasing the Sun like a comet, and the sun's going at a half a million miles per hour and all of the other planets are keeping up orbiting the Sun while it's shooting through the sky. And that entire system is moving. 01:05:43Highways at 1 to 2 million miles per hour. It's a klusterfuk and everything Remains the Same everything. If you go out tonight and look at the stars in the sky. The fixed star is not the wandering stars and you mark where they are at like midnight or whatever time and then go out next year at this exact same time or any year. 01:06:11In the future or the past, those Stars will be in the exact same position. 01:06:17That wouldn't happen night tonight in this beehive spiraling out of control. Insane heliocentric system that they tell us we live in it. Here's the problem. It's called the two by the three-body problem. NASA has what's called the three-body problem. You have the sun which is this Giant Gas ball to somehow coalesced and created this infinite amount of gravity and then to 93 million miles away is the earth. That's like if the sun was a one of those yoga ball. The Earth is a marble like a mile away. Okay? That it's insane. 01:07:01Somehow the Earth is falling around the sun because the Sun's gravity is holding it, but it's falling around the sun because obviously, it's a gravity so that's gravity's holding on. And now that's a good. Make. A model of the computer hair. Got this ball here. I got that says, it's much better. This one does this much gravity and the model works perfectly. Then you add a third body, any size body that has any gravity in the system and the entire system falls apart. So, while we're orbiting the Sun, the Earth grabbed onto this Moon and this moon is falling in the opposite direction around the earth and it's holding it. What happens when the moon gets in between the Sun and the Earth? The sun's magical gravity ignores the moon and just holding on to the Earth and the Earth. Hold on to the Moon. 01:07:51That's ridiculous. Bullshit. And you couldn't sell that as a B rated movie. Right? Why doesn't the sun rip the Moon away. Why does it even just tug on the moon a little bit? We got all these other giant planets in our solar system, when they all line up. How come that gravity doesn't just tuck them in a little bit out of position and change. What's going on. The sky is a perfect clock. Okay, clock is in a beehive. We all were bees are flying and every different direction. A clock is a precise mechanism. Did you know that eclipses, go on an 18 year and I think, 11 day cycle, and then they repeat again and again and again, no, I didn't know that they are on a cycle. Like the wheels are clock. Okay, they Mark, they Mark time. 01:08:38So we are, we're on the the sky clock is is a precise marking of Seasons X ages ugly. On December 21st. We're going into a new age of other Age of Aquarius. What is at the age of Aquarius? Is that what they talked about? You know, again, these things don't happen like that. You know, nothing I say nothing is going to happen that day, but it's the clicking over. It's like when you wake up in the morning cuz I got you have to get up at 6, whatever. Then you're allowing this month, the 21st of December to 2020. This is the Chain lyrics. This is a once-in-a-lifetime wait longer than a lifetime. So 01:09:24What's going on? You know, what are the lead of the elite hiding? Maybe it's a time where we know our brains are going to awaken Amor and they're trying to keep us in fear, and they're limiting or oxygen with these masks and they're giving us back scenes that could stop us being from being able to think properly who the freak knows what's going on, but this is all about control. 01:09:52This is why they're hiding Flat Earth because they don't want people to know that we are. We are literally spiritual Souls, having a journey at in this realm. And they want us to believe that we're in significant, you know, accidents that happened in the middle of a Godless are distant God, the universe. Well, I name my last episode covid-19 the new religion because, yeah, I feel it is, I mean, it, it, it's what we all think about 100% of the time that we were, it's in Golf Tour live for the last Almost year and maybe, perhaps maybe they've kept it inside, so they can do maintenance on this whole system of projection, right? NATO. 01:10:40What? I have a question for you, what would it take for you to? Let's say that. Okay. Let's say that they got the math wrong. 01:10:48What they have the model, correct? I'm talking about the round earth model broad, doesn't prove. The Earth is flat. It just shows you the NASA fraud and they're they're the main portrayers of the globe. There is no curvature. Okay, we can we are Optics have outrun their lies. We can leave use lasers mirror flashes with the sun. We've used microwave just visual zooming in on stuff. We can see too far we can see where one foot above the water, water the rising to be 1.9 miles away so we can see what are Beyond known distances like an oil rig. Wind turbine of 15 miles away where there should be two hundred feet of curvature. Okay, you shouldn't be able to the water but not only we can see the water Beyond them, the surface of the water. Be on them. 01:11:48Right stuff, like this picture behind me. Convinces people. That there's a space station. Okay, but this was taken in a swimming pool, right? This was taking in a swimming pool and they just dropping backgrounds. Okay, it's nonsense. 01:12:06Yeah, here's the thing. People don't want to believe, you know, they they're like, oh what about? You know, Felix Baumgartner space jump right here, jealous. Baumgarten. This is what they are. But, you know, he did another jump to other tests jo

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Alex Ross is the co-founder & CEO at Gregarious, Inc. Gregarious is the company behind Greg, an app dedicated to helping people grow healthier and happier plants. Greg's community has grown from 100 beta users in August 2020 to over 50,000 monthly active users today.Alex graduated from the University of California, Los Angeles, and studied data science and statistics at MIT. Alex has worked for companies such as Cisco, The Daily Aztec, and Cannon Trading.Prior to founding Gregarious, Alex spent 4 years as Director of Engineering at Tinder. Alex also co-founded Enplug, a digital signage company that was acquired earlier this year.In this episode, you'll learn: The two critical steps in making a successful app An ingenious strategy for partnering your app with retail companies Why you should involve your customers in content creation Links & Resources Tinder Enplug fitbod app Y Combinator (YC) Alex Ross' Links Greg app Alex's Twitter: @AreteRoss Job opportunities at Gregarious Alex's LinkedIn Gregarious, Inc. on LinkedIn Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingRevenueCat: https://twitter.com/RevenueCatSub Club: https://twitter.com/SubClubHQEpisode TranscriptAlex: 00:00:00The two steps in making a successful app business are make something worth using, and then put it in front of the people who would use it.If you have a plant, and you don't know what to do with it, we solve that problem.So, what we did is we reached out to a bunch of plant retailers, “Hey, we will help your customers have a positive outcome with your product.”Can you put in our little QR code? And now when these retailers ship out a new plant, every single one of them has this little QR code in it.It led to our first 15,000 users, I'd say. David: 00:00:30Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I'm your host, David Bernard. And with me as always, Jacob Eiting. Hello, Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:53Happy to be here. David: 00:00:55You sound incredibly happy.Jacob: 00:00:57It's great. It's a Friday, David. The sun is shining. They're grilling a bunch of chickens in my hometown. I got nothing to complain about. It's gonna be great.David: 00:01:05Our guest today is Alex Ross, founder and CEO at Gregarious, makers of Greg, an app to help you grow healthier and happier plants. Prior to founding Gregarious Alex spent four years as director of engineering at Tinder.Alex also co-founded Enplug, a digital signage company that was acquired earlier this year. Welcome to the podcast, Alex.Alex: 00:01:27Thank you guys. Good to see you. Thanks, David, Jacob.Jacob: 00:01:29Hi. David: 00:01:30So, I'm going to try really hard this whole podcast and not call you Greg, but I've made that mistake.Jacob: 00:01:36I was thinking like, I get like annoying company name questions. Sometimes. I'm like, I'm sure you get more worse than me.Alex: 00:01:43But I'm considering just legally adopting Greg as alias or something. Jacob: 00:01:48Yeah. You know, I mean, that's a news cycle right there. A little bit of earned PR. David: 00:01:55So I wanted to ask you, so obviously, you know, director of engineering at Tinder that's, I mean, what a rocket ship that must've been quite a wild ride. So, tell me a little bit about, about how you ended up at Tinder and then, you know, if you do have any fun, war stories from there, that'd be great to hear. Alex: 00:02:16Yeah, definitely. It was a rocket ship. Definitely some war stories, some wins, some losses. So, I came across Tinder and I was looking to get into like a consumer application. so I was interviewing with Uber and Twitter, and then I came across Tinder on an angel list. Actually the head of recruiting at the time reached out to me and I kind of took it on a whim.To be honest, I had not used the app before, before even interviewing or anything. that's kind of a challenge for Tinder is like, do you, how many of the teammates need to use Tinder? Because a lot of people are married and in relationships, and those are great people to have on the team. And so it makes it odd, and kind of difficult or complicated. But, basically I joined when it was around 70 people, if I recall. So, it was a pretty small team. There was already a global user base, so it was one of the scrappiest, global brands I think probably has ever existed. Because this was all right before Tinder or right around the time that Tinder launched its first monetization efforts.And so there wasn't really awareness as to like, great, there's this like large, global, many millions of people are using this thing, but is it going to make money? Right? That was still an open question at the time that I joined. So, yeah, basically I joined and it was very, it was definitely still a startup.And, so there was not a lot of structure and I think my manager changed on the first day, like the person I was talking about working with's desk changed, but I had a great time and basically I ended up creating the growth team. So I became very focused on, growing the international user base.One of the coolest things that that team did is we decoupled Tinder from Facebook. And this was from Facebook login because like Tinder came to, came to fame by having, you know, you tap one button, it imports your Facebook photos. It basically made online dating as easy as it possibly can be because like you push a button you're in and then you're dating.Right. And by making it that simple, it made it so you felt less than desperate by using it. I think it was like one of the important psychological dynamic, because if you feel like you have to work to start using that application, then maybe it means that like you aren't having as much success in dating in the real world.So, by making it simpler, it made it less stigmatized. More cool. Right? And so when we decided to then allow people to create accounts with a phone number that introduced all this complexity around like, well, are people going to want to do that? Then they have to add profile photos. They have to type in their name.You have to introduce an onboarding process. You have to worry about spam. So, in any case, my team led that decoupling of Facebook and Tinder, and this was like pre Cambridge Analytica, pre GDPR. So it was definitely pressure. And it was like, it was a lot of good foresight and it did lead. It was a very successful project.So, that was kind of what I cut my teeth on it Tinder. And then from there, I ended up creating the trust and safety team. So we then kind of took on anti-spam, which is a major problem for any global consumer or especially a brand that you're introducing people to each other. Like you're introducing strangers to each other.That is a spammer's dream.Jacob: 00:05:32There has got to be just so much abuse on Alex: 00:05:34So much, and it was all stuff. I agree. Yeah. 24 7. and so we ended up creating a team kind of bottoms up. This is a cool effort. Cause it wasn't like an executive side, like, oh, Tinder needs to needs to create this team. But rather. A collection of engineers that were very motivated to solve this problem.So, we created a trust and safety team again, before, before GDPR, like this was before the world was really focused on, privacy and data security and protect users. Very consciously.Jacob: 00:06:01It's it's interesting. Cause now, you know, even with like clubhouse recently have had issues here. I think now the expectation is you need trust and safety from day one, which even five or six years ago, wasn't really the case. It was kind of like, well, I'll just grow and then you'll solve it later.So, that was, I would say early days for even that concept of like a whole dedicated team to those, those, those aspects of, yeah. If you're meeting people in public mind, God, like you need good Alex: 00:06:28Real. Yeah. You really need to continuously try to protect people. Cause there are, there's a rare selection of people that are not great. Right. SoJacob: 00:06:36Yeah. David: 00:06:37So then, tell us a little bit about the transition from being a tender to founding a company, because you had founded companies before and plug, and been at, other large companies before Tinder, but Yeah. What, what led you to, to found Gregarious? Alex: 00:06:54Yeah. I actually saw Jacob and I shared an experience interning at Cisco systems. Is that right? Did you, yeah, Jacob: 00:07:01Wait, when were we at the same? Like onboarding. Alex: 00:07:04No, no. I was actually in the finance organization, so I was doing internal auditing. it was crazy. I was on a team that like investigated other people for like, you know, abusing their corporate cards and stuff like that. So there'd be likeJacob: 00:07:19Interesting. internally. Alex: 00:07:21Internally. yeah. it was a very, Jacob: 00:07:23We've had interns on that team. Alex: 00:07:27It was a unique, it was definitely the only inboard,Jacob: 00:07:29Yeah. Wow. I was testing, I was testing phones, so I'm actually not sure which one of those is more boring. I think actually you might've had me. So Alex: 00:07:38That's for sure. yeah, so I got exposure is Cisco is interesting for anybody who doesn't know cause you have to drive between meetings. Right? Cause the campus is so large. Jacob: 00:07:48Campus. Alex: 00:07:49Yeah, Yeah, Talk about, oh my gosh. Culture. Yeah, so the, the process leading up to, to starting Greg was very deliberate. because I had done a startup before and that company had gone to success a successful outcome, but it was a lot of hard work was honestly grueling.Definitely like, hardest challenge of my life. And so I knew that I wanted to be involved in starting a company and building a culture from the ground up again. but I knew that I wanted to do it differently. and so basically there was a lot of preparation thinking about really the main thing I was thinking about is what is the industry that I want to be working in, because I think that startups often don't go the way you expect.But you can learn so much. And so I was really thinking like, okay, what do I want to become an expert at? Right. Like what do I want, if it doesn't work out in the way we expect, what would I like to have learned four years, five years, seven years worth of information about.And, I really kept coming back to science. and I wanted to, to kind of use my engineering experience and pivot that into, more real world, like physical phenomenon. Right. And like learning how the universe works. David: 00:08:59That's amazing. Alex: 00:09:00And so that's really, a lot of the thesis of Greg is that we apply computer science and software engineering to this specific domain of how to plants work.Right. And, and basically the, the dots kind of connect looking backwards, but it was a process of discovery of like, what's an area that's emerging and like kind of changing, like where is there an opportunity, right. Because I think it's helpful to position yourself at a place where either you can cause change or this change already happened.And, right now, like a lot of people know there's climate change. and there's also a lot of, rapid things happening in plant science world, specifically around like CRISPR and plant genetics and stuff like that, really at the deep end of it, which we can get into, but it's like way deep. but, but basically, this was before the pandemic.So we were actually looking into plants before COVID and already there was like the rate of people bringing plants into their homes was growing by 50 to a hundred percent per year. And we wanted to validate like, Jacob: 00:10:03I really like, that seems like that seems like a thing that would be fairly stable, like, is it, is it, is it a, is it a generational trend, like millennials or younger folks being? I have a lot of people on Twitter. I follow that seem very interested in plants more than I've ever been. Alex: 00:10:20There's a couple converging trends. Yeah. I think that part of it it's associated to like the mental wellness movement. So it's kind of this trend line follows a one that's very similar to like meditation and yoga just five years later. So I think it's a very, it's a lot of adjacent interests there, but then there's also an aesthetic component to plants where like, people are kind of decorating their spaces and they're getting more like trendy in how they, you know, how they, even people who are eating, like you want to have like a space that you invite someone into and it's very nurturing.Right. so yeah, there was definitely a generational kind of tailwind already happening. And then COVID just like crammed that up. Right. Cause then everybody's on zoom and you look in the background, some people have plants and you're like, oh, that looks kind of nice. Like I'd like that.Jacob: 00:11:04I have this. I have, I still have this like barren white wall back here. That is embarrassing. Yeah, I need, that's why I was excited. I, I, I installed Greg today and I was disappointed. I couldn't buy the plants in the app yet. So we'll have to talk about that as we get a little Alex: 00:11:17That's something that is coming. That is the client segment. Yeah, definitely. yeah, so we kind of saw an opportunity and we did some due diligence, some interesting things I think, to identify like, is there a revenue opportunity in my favorite stat that I like to share that blew my mind when I learned it is home Depot, is a publicly traded company.So you can look up their, you know, annual statements and you can see how are they making money. And if you look up their statements, you'll see that they make more money on indoor garden than on any other product segment. Like home Depot sells lumber, paint appliances, all these other the Jacob: 00:11:54That's like, that's like actual revenues. Is that also margin con? Cause I would imagine these are high margin items as well, I would guess. Alex: 00:12:01Yeah. Depending on where you fall on them. But yeah, they're, they're, they're pretty hard margin. and no, we only looked at revenue, but they make like last night, like $11 billion per year in revenue. Which is, and, and they're like 10 or Jacob: 00:12:15Store, right? That's, one. Yeah. And there's like, every town has four of these. Alex: 00:12:19Exactly. Yeah. And home Depot is like 10 or 15% of the plant retail market. Probably. It's hard to estimate.Jacob: 00:12:26Okay. Yeah.So, it's like roughly like a hundred, a hundred billion dollar a year kind of thing in the US. Wow. That's it. That's the size of in-app subscriptions for anybody. Who's curious, like, roughly like in that ballpark.Alex: 00:12:39Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like Apple's app store, subscription Jacob: 00:12:42Oh yeah. Sorry, app store. It's not even subscriptions. I think that's the app store broadly. Yeah.Alex: 00:12:47So we combined the plant Tam with then the app store growth in subscription revenue. And there's our business model.Jacob: 00:12:56There you go. Did you, did you, I mean, yeah. You mentioned like wanting to get into something physical into something science related. Did you have like a passion for plants or was this something that is like deep in you or, or was it more like me and an app subscriptions, which is like, wow, this looks like a good thing I can work on and I actually care about it and know a little bit about it.Right. So how, how did it, how did you go? Like, Yeah.This is what I want to do. Alex: 00:13:17That's a great question. It was like 75% the ladder. So the same as you, where I was kind of, I got exposed to it cause I started getting plants and I realized I did like them, but there was no brand to guide me. And there was definitely no science to help me keep them alive. Right. but I, I grew up in the mountains and so like, I, I, my family, I lived in Mammoth Lakes, California for any of the listeners know where that is.And so I, you know, I, I went on like a solo backpacking trip, like shortly before starting all of this and kind of communed with like being in nature with no people around me. And maybe that put me in touch with the plans a little bit more. but it was mostly, kind of identifying, this is a realm of science I'd like to work in because plants are mostly.Physics-based, this is something a lot of people don't don't realize, but because they're stationary, you can almost view them as like, like a civil engineer would a bridge. so there's not, so you can kind of really think about like the water physics, the light physics. And so they're a really great vehicle for learning, just physics generally, and also how like the sun and earth orbit matters to that plant and that location.There's so much science there that we learned that there's a depth. That was, we were very interested in diving deeper intoJacob: 00:14:31Yeah. Not to mention, not to mentioned biology, right. Alex: 00:14:33There is, but Jacob: 00:14:34As an intersection, right? Yeah. Alex: 00:14:37Yeah. Biology is difficult though, right? Like if you're like an engineer, who's trying to approach it,Jacob: 00:14:41Right. Yeah. Alex: 00:14:42it's messy, you know, I Jacob: 00:14:44Yeah, exactly. Alex: 00:14:46Yeah, yeah,Jacob: 00:14:47But if you think about it, it was a closed system, right? Like yeah. You have it. It's potted, it's planted, you know, lumens in, you know, water in, you know, nutrients in, you can, yeah, you can, you can make some approximations, right. As we like. Alex: 00:15:02The closed system is really important. I can. so what Greg does is Greg predicts when a given plant is going to need to be watered. And that's like the super simple, like simplified functionality. It's one of the main things you need to know. And the way we figured that out talking about closed systems is kind of a fun fact. you can very accurately measure the amount of water that a plant loses by weighing it on one day and then weighing it the next day. And the change in weight is the water lost in grams. And it turns out, so what we did is we did that for like 700 plants for like six months. And we, we then graft what was the grams of water lost per plant per day?And you get this beautiful pattern. It's like it random, like this is a very clear, like almost a heartbeat of a plant, which is a great fit for like machine learning.Jacob: 00:15:56Yeah. So, so, so how did, how did you pull this off? Like practically, did you have like a big garage or warehouse or something like that? That's, that's more work than I usually do for software. So tell me what that process was. Alex: 00:16:09It definitely did. So at one point I had like 150 plants and they all had a plastic, little pots and I had like labels. I named them like a one through nine and then C one through whatever. Cause I had to keep track of it. Right. It's all in our progress database. And but that didn't scale. And so like me and my co-founders, we were all measuring every day, every single day, hundreds of plants, but that didn't scale.So then we went on Craigslist and we started saying like, Hey, we're looking for people to weigh their plants every day, twice per day for a couple of months. And we had hundreds of responses, like people, people care about their plants and they thought that it was cool to be doing like citizen science.Right. And so we ended up with people in Berlin and, and you know, Sydney.Jacob: 00:16:48All right. Cause it doesn't have to be local, right? Yeah. Alex: 00:16:51And actually it needs to be in like Southern hemisphere versus Northern hemisphere because the location of like the sun and solar radiation effects that. Yeah. So we needed a global distribution for sure.David: 00:17:01This is like way off topic for, for subscription apps. But, but if you, if you squint it's, there are a lot of similar problems in understanding user patterns and user life cycle. And like, there's so many hard to understand variables. Alex: 00:17:18Yeah, David: 00:17:18But one thing I'm curious about on the plant science, like how much does like humidity and other things play into that.So if you, if you have, you know, 40% humidity, one day and 60%, the next does that actually impact things. Alex: 00:17:31No humidity. We don't really need to model humidity very much. it's actually, there's a couple of things that are misconceptions. You don't really need to worry about missing or humidity and you don't need to worry about fertilizing. Like all of that is overdone. for the most part, like there's some cases where it, matters, but, I'd say for like 99 out of 100 plant types that you're likely to own doesn't matter.And even more people don't realize that the humidity reading that we see in the weather is what's called relative humidity. And it, it not actually like super scientific way to measure, like how the water in the air relates to a plant. You need to look at absolute humidity, the whole totally different calculation.There's basically relative humidity changes according to the temperature. And so I see as humidity, you can almost, and to be honest, like, ignore, except for a couple of plants, like really evolved to be in, like, you can picture it. you know, in England, like, United Kingdom, like BHAG, right. Where it's just so much water, like, okay, well does like some, some ferns like are from like the Pacific Northwest, like Washington area where it's like constant rain forest, those types of plans.Yeah. You're going to have a hard time if you're not, in a very human environment, but the vast majority of EBI don't have to worry about it.Jacob: 00:18:47I have, I have more questions on the plant physics, but I think, I think I will let, I will, I will have to like save my curiosity.David: 00:18:55Well, we'll have to do the, we'll have to jump on your podcast and talk, talk points. Jacob: 00:19:00Plant Club, just invite V2 to newbies on there. Just to ask questions. We'll be there. David: 00:19:05So from, from all of this, you, you started to alluded to it a bit, but one of the things I was really impressed talking to you a couple of months ago, was just how I'm vicious. Your plans are with Greg. So you're, you're kicking it off with a consumer subscription app. but tell me a little bit about like, where you want to go from there.Alex: 00:19:25Yeah, definitely. That's a part of like, going back to like how we started it, why we started it. I have seen, or like I've worked at companies and like not naming names that are very, very revenue focused. Like just purely prime directive is we just need to make coin and as much of it as possible. Right.And then the question is, well, if you get there, then what do you do? Because if you do accumulate a level of avenue and a lot of influence, you kind of inherit a social responsibility, right? Because like you're accumulating all these resources. If you're like a Facebook or an Instagram, I think there's like general consensus.Like you kind of need to think about the impact that you have. Cause you're too big to not think about it. Right. And so with Greg, like we really thought about if we manage to navigate this very challenging process of getting to scale. Well then what? Right. And our goal what's really interesting that people don't realize is that plants in our homes are just plants that were taken from various places in the world and put in our homes, right?Like there there's no such thing as a houseplant, it's actually just like a giant jungle tree that somebody took a cutting from and then transported it to England and then ended up the United States. Right. so the physical principles that govern, being able to predict how to keep those plants alive is, are the same as the physical principles required to predict how to keep like crops alive.Right. like plants that are grown for our food system of which there are like billions. Right. And those plants, like it turns out plants are really like an infrastructure piece of our planet, right? Like plants are our like big support system on spaceship earth. And it's kind of interesting. Jacob: 00:21:10It's, the, it's the first stage of catalyzing, the sun's resources, right? Like, Alex: 00:21:15That's exactly it. And a lot of people don't realize this, that basically all of life gets its energy from the sun. Like that is the input of all of energy into what we know as life, as you know, maybe there's more on other planets that works differently. But as far as we know, all of life depends on solar energy.Jacob: 00:21:31Yeah, Alex, you're leaving out some very, very, sensitive, bacteria that live by vents. Okay. That, that Alex: 00:21:40I love that you noticed.Jacob: 00:21:43I'm D I'm disappointed in myself that I can't think of what they're called. They're extremophiles some kind of, I Alex: 00:21:47Yeah. Jacob: 00:21:48All, it's all, it's all discovery documentaries, so Alex: 00:21:51There's a vanishingly small number of, like living things that, thrive on geothermal energy from the earth score. Right. But that's like less than like 1% as far as I know. What people don't realize as an example is that like plants. A lot of people think that plants are just taking things out of the ground that is sucking nutrients out, sucking water out. They're actually also putting things back into the ground at all times. And so plants, like, for example, they photosynthesize. So they take energy from the sun and they are the only thing on the planet that takes energy from the sun and then converts it into energy that all other life can use. And it's not only insects and birds and mammals like us, but plants are also depositing sugar into the soil.So it's a bi-directional flow and that sugar feeds the bacteria. Jacob: 00:22:38Is that an active process while they're alive? Is it, or is it during decomposition? Alex: 00:22:42No, that is an active process. Like plants are actively depositing sugar into the soil and that, that those sugars feed the bacteria and fungi and those bacteria and fungi are responsible for breaking down the, inorganic, nutrients like nitrogen into a format that plants can absorb because plants can't just like stop nitrogen.Now they depend on. Those organic, you know, facilitators. And so it's a very symbiotic relationship and there's growing awareness now that like having a quote unquote, living soil is crucial for our planet. And I'll tell you like an example of how, how much awareness there is around this. during my due diligence for Greg, I went to a plant genetics conference.This is like for any engineers in the call, like imagine like AWS reinvent, accepted the geneticists. Right. And so they're like presenting, like how they run their projects. And it's, it's a really cool parallel world, but half of this conference was dedicated to soil like microbiomes, because that's how important it is.It's like truly like a resource. It's an infrastructure for our spaceship earth. Right? David: 00:23:49That's amazing. So, so one of the things, yeah, you and I talked about was not just, you know, consumer subscription to then like funding science, which is kind of what you're talking about now, but then also the potential to take this from, from B2C to B2B. So like you have, nurturing these who have to manage the planets before the people buy ‘em.You have office buildings that have thousands of plants. You have, you know, commercial facilities like there's, you know, plants existed on so many different layers of are of, of, of use, So tell me a little bit about kind of the long and short term plans of potentially transitioning or not transitioning, but, but kind of building on top of what you've done for consumers to then expand into more B2B, use cases.Alex: 00:24:42Yeah, definitely. Some other examples. people don't realize that cities have to like municipalities have to maintain the plant inventories, right? Like there are people who manage the inventory of plants. Exists, you know, or there are small businesses. there are people in most towns, I grow food for their farmer's markets, for example.And so those are like smaller scale farmers and then there's large scale farmers, right? And there's a real dearth of like talented software teams, writing applications for any of those parties. And that's really the long-term opportunity to be spotted. If we can pull together a talented team to make products for those people, that's a longterm opportunity.And my, my thesis on this, which I think we're aligned on is that, like delightful, simple consumer user interfaces, like simple software is appreciated by everybody. Right? Jacob: 00:25:35Okay. Alex: 00:25:35like enterprises don't want to use complicated integrative Jacob: 00:25:40There's tastes now in software, right. And all levels of, employment. I think it's, it's a bit of like our gen my generation aging into the, the enterprise buying world. And, also just like people have enough software experiences in our lives. They've learned to discern like, oh, this is good.And, oh, this is bad. and I think there's, yeah, I think it's really, I mean, we I've, I've done it a ton in making revenue count. I came from the compute super subscription world. I learned a ton of lessons about onboarding and, and, and, and creating delightful experiences and like, you know, playing, playing against and into people's like, you know, habits and things like this that you carry into the enterprise world or B2B world, and it can really supercharge software.And it's probably what we're going to see. Yeah. I think. I think there's still, there's always this like technical leap or not technical in the sense of computers, but technical in the sense of processes and whatnot, when you leap from consumer to, to selling to businesses. But as you said, you bring those teams together, you, you build your data set, you learn more about Alex: 00:26:45Right, Jacob: 00:26:46Act of growing plants, then someday you, you, you can, you Alex: 00:26:49Right. And there are some, some famous examples of this. I definitely see it with RevenueCat. Cause like you compare the UI to a SAS that was created 10 years ago and it's just more of delightful. Right. It's like simple. And I know to use it. I'm not like getting a headache while I'm on it, but it's nice.Right?Jacob: 00:27:05It's very nice. Very nice of you to say Alex: 00:27:07Yeah. Bye-bye But, but like some examples like strike became famous, right? Because like they had a good Jacob: 00:27:14Same. Yeah, yeah. Say my mindset. Right. Just like, make it easy, make it simple, make the, make the shortest possible path to value. Right. Alex: 00:27:25Or, slack would be another example. Right. Whereas it was almost a consumer level application that just took off like wildfire because individuals liked it. Right. Jacob: 00:27:34And then they added enterprise grid, whatever they have now, or whatever to sell it to, to, to Alex: 00:27:39And then nothing is things, Jacob: 00:27:41Need that to begin with.Alex: 00:27:42Right? David: 00:27:43Yeah. So it's just, it's really cool that there's, there's just such a direct path from selling to consumers right now, and then selling to municipalities who are managing their plants in a few years, and then selling to, you know, the, the company should have to manage this at scale and then selling to farmers.That's really cool. One of the things that, again, that you're not talking about, you and I talked for like two hours a couple of months ago. And so there's, there's so much that I would, I would've loved to have recorded that and released it as a podcast. But, Jacob: 00:28:20Glad I can glad I can contribute. David: 00:28:23Yeah, one of the, one of the fascinating things that you talked about was kind of your view on marketing. And so I'd love for you to talk about that more broadly, but then specifically what you're doing with nurseries is just such incredibly smart marketing. Like, I mean, it, let me say tangent for a minute.So it's just so obvious talking to you that you're not the average like app founder, you know, like none of my apps have had even, even like when, when hundredth of the due diligence and market Jacob: 00:28:55Why I was gonna say, I've never, I've never bought some, like, I've never had a physical warehouse of plantsDavid: 00:29:02Yeah. and so it's just, it's just so clear that you, you think about things in a way that, that most, you know, at people don't most software people don't most even founders don't. and, and so I think, you know, we've talked about this on the podcast before, is it just so many apps are trapped in this?You know, we just, we have to advertise on Facebook to grow. We have to do this. And like that clay book, I've just, you know, dumping money, a bunch of money in ads, I think leave so much on the table. And so I just love that you're, you're going to do that. And that we've talked about that, you know, you've got to do paid marketing and, and maybe I've already started experimenting with it, but, but yeah.So tell me about what you're doing with nurseries and then just kind of, you know, some of your thoughts on, on marketing and virality and stuff. Alex: 00:29:51Yeah, definitely. I think broadly, like what I would, I think I'm definitely aligned with that where, your broader point is that like building an app is half technical and UI design and getting the product really, really, really right. Right. But the other half that people are often uncomfortable about is needing to get it in front of the right people.Right. And so in my mind, the way I break this down is the two steps. Like I have a theory that like the two steps in making a successful app business are make thumping worth using, and then put it in front of the people who would use it. Right. And it's like remarkably hard to do either one of those, but, Once we had, the beginning signs of retention.So we got our first, like, I don't know, 5,000 users by like posting on Facebook and on Reddit and like that kind of stuff. Then we started thinking about, what is like the most optimal time for people to be introduced to grade. And what we came up with is, well, we solved the problem of, if you have a plant and you don't know what to do with it, how to keep it alive, we solve that problem.And so the most natural moment would be when you get a new plant, right. Because it's like, that's a moment. And you're like, oh crap, I have this thing. What do I, how do I keep it alive? And, so what we did is we reached out to a bunch of, plant retailers, like online in-person brick and mortar all over the place.And we basically said like, Hey, we will help your customers have a positive outcome with your product. Right. And so let's do this trade where like, we will give them. at this point we had a subscription tier. And so we said, we'll give them free subscription tier for N number of months. At first it was six.And now it's three. and in return, can you put in our little QR code flyer, like nicely designed four inches by four inches recycled paper card that has a QR code and it takes you to download. Great. Right. And so we did that and now like when these retailers ship out a new plant, every single one of them has this little QR code in it.And it's almost like a digital companion to your unboxing experience. Right. And so that was definitely like a very natural fit and it, it led to our first, probably like 10 or 20,000, 15,000 users, I'd say.Jacob: 00:32:10So can I ask, like, did you do that yourself? Did you have somebody on your team? Cause like, yeah. I'm, I'm in the camp that that's outside of my experience. I don't like calling the pizza person. Like I, you know, I, I don't know how to do that. So how, how did you, how did you delegate that and, and Alex: 00:32:24Yeah. Jacob: 00:32:24The resources and a small team to pull that off. Alex: 00:32:27Definitely. so I I'd say I provided the, the oomph behind it. but then I have a good friend, who I've worked with in the past named Colin, who does like growth marketing stuff and that's his comfort zone. Right. And so I definitely did reach out to a bunch of the biggest partners in the beginning.Because the thing is that like with early stage stuff, founder led sales can be great, right? Like you don't always need it. It's better if you don't need it to be Frank. but, we were so early and we had no partners at all that I was like, I ha this is crucial for us. Like, we need to have a better source of user acquisition.That's like our next major challenge to solve. And so I did reach out to them and then call in kind of like took over and scaled that. Right. Cause like, I, I ultimately like I needed to be writing code and stuff. and so now he owns that relationship and he's been able to keep that going further.Jacob: 00:33:22Yeah, it's just one of these unique channels. you know, I don't know, you can, as a, B to C app founder, I think David's points exactly on, I think we've a lot of us have settled into this world where there's one or two channels to like get growth and that's paid, paid marketing.There's a lot of good, growth resources out there. oh yeah, there's a lot of good growth books. I've read, moving into the B2B world that say there's like seven channels or whatever. There's only like so many like ways to get and in and in, and in B to C we tend to be like, well, yeah, there's these two, essentially, but it's not really true.Like you can try seven, I guess the trick is finding stuff that two things, one is approachable. Like, that's why I asked about you. How did you make it happen? Well, you were able to start it off and then you had somebody to work with you to, to, to bring it to scale. But then the other thing is it has to move the needle. Right. And so, and so you have to figure out and like for a price that's reasonable, right? And, and that sometimes is hard to find as well. Because I think with this, you have this adjacent high velocity market of users. You have a place, your users are going every day, which isn't maybe always the case for all apps.Right. It's hard to find there's no meditation store that people are going to day. Right. Alex: 00:34:33Yeah. I thought about this. Jacob: 00:34:34That's your, that's your advantage? You know?Alex: 00:34:37I thought about parallels. Like I wonder if like fitness apps have tried partnering with gyms. I'm thinking like fit. Jacob: 00:34:44I'm sure the gyms wouldn't be as eager maybe. Right? Alex: 00:34:48Well, I mean, possibly I'm just thinking like, if, if like, Jacob: 00:34:51This also like there's also this like benefit right from the, for the Alex: 00:34:54There has to be. Yeah, yeah. But I would just, I just like theory, graph, like I'm thinking if there's an app That helps you track your workouts. Like I use football, I'm a user, it's a great app and, and it's a complete compliment or a gym. Like I can't do gym without, I can't do football about gym. I don't really do gym about that.So, I, there might be a thing there, or like with meditation, I'd be curious if, like yoga studios. Cause here's the thing is Jacob: 00:35:21Find the adjacencies right. Alex: 00:35:22Yeah. And so here's the thing about a mobile app business that I have found is that one of our strengths is that we're building an audience, right? Like mobile apps only really work with retention.And so you're like building up this audience of people that are committed to your app and your brand over time. And these smaller businesses are looking for ways to get audiences. Right? And so in the scale of a mobile app is such that you might actually be able to accumulate an audience that is valuable to those small businesses.That can be a part of that trade. And so we've actually talked about that with our partners where we basically say like, well, you're referring users to us. We can refer users back to you. And our scale is large enough that it could actually be a meaningful number. so I think you can kind of get, it's definitely a B2B strategy where it's like, I'm thinking of the strategic value I can provide to my partners in return for them providing value.Which might be why it's less common in the, in the B2C, like mobile app world, right.David: 00:36:16Yeah. Any other, experiments that you've done or kind of things that you're working on in the, in the marketing realm that you've seen fail or things that are being successful right now Alex: 00:36:27We really want to tap peer to peer referrals and that has not been easy. And so that, that is one Jacob: 00:36:33Have you seen, have you seen the new store kit to stuff? Alex: 00:36:36Not Jacob: 00:36:36Yeah, they did. This is, I don't know when this is going to go out, but they, they dropped in, in, in the dub DC, this, this, this week they announced there's a new API. That's going to make that kind of possible. Now you'll be able to, you'll be able to like extend somebody else's subscription, based on some sort of like action. I think I, I, I don't know if they made it as like, for extending, for like a customer support use case. So there might be a case maybe Apple's like, no, we didn't want you to use it for incentivized referrals, but it could Alex: 00:37:09Yeah, Jacob: 00:37:09Make incentivize referrals work and like a really smooth way. Sorry, I'll derail. But, Alex: 00:37:14I love it. Jacob: 00:37:15It's, kind of a change.Alex: 00:37:17Well, it's probably useful to listeners. we have definitely hacked around incentivizes invites using promotionals that will say RevenueCat has been helpful.Jacob: 00:37:26Oh, so, and so you guys are, you guys are pushing folks, but they have to go through like this, like a user-driven process, right? Alex: 00:37:33They do. Yeah.Jacob: 00:37:34Is friction.Alex: 00:37:35It's friction. It has been fine, but it's not quite as productive as we like. So that one. Jacob: 00:37:39Have a lot of users that get confused about the process. I would imagine. Alex: 00:37:42Yeah. And it's like a deep Linky thing. So it's like not super transparent. the thing that's worked better, the one that I'm most excited about is I love this one. we, created, user generated content loops. so, basically people, there are certain things you can do in our app that like publish web pages on the web.And so for us very specifically, People like Greg, we don't have a database of like every plant in the world yet. Right. There's like 400,000. It's really complicated. And like, that's actually, one of our core IP is, is developing that database. And the only way we can do it is if we allow users to contribute to it.Right. and we need to be like a crowd source, like model and we get really good at curation so people can create new species in Gregg. And then we curate that and then we publish that page on the web and then it starts showing up in Google search traffic for other people searching for information about that species.Right. And so I love the theory of this and like check back in, in a year to see how it turns out. But I love the thing. Because it's like, okay, a user publishes a web page, which then more users find our app through. So then they join the app and then they publish more webpages. And then so more users find the app and then they publish more web pages.Right. And so it's like a very like positive reinforcement loop. And I think those types of recursive positive reinforcing user growth loops can lead to very healthy, growth curves, right?Jacob: 00:39:08Yeah. I mean, that's the, the challenge of these apps. You said it with retention is the big thing. I think you, you you're you're you're you've got some tables. Keeping a plant alive plants live a long time. Therefore, hopefully your app gets used a long time, but then, finding these things that can take what is inherently like a decaying process, which is people leaving your app and turning it into something more stable, which is how you build this, like yeah.Long-term business. And then, you know, for, in your case, like use this as a platform to move into other segments and whatnot. but, but but moving away, from this, like get them in, monetize them, let them go. Right. Model, which like, it seems just like the whole world is pointing us against right. With, with the way that ad tracking is getting less easy to do and all this stuff.Alex: 00:39:54Yeah. Jacob: 00:39:54So I was gonna say SEO, that's one of the seven good channels. Right. So you've hit at least three, Alex: 00:40:01Do end up dependent on, on Google. AndJacob: 00:40:05It's something can change in Alex: 00:40:06Yeah, Jacob: 00:40:07Or. Alex: 00:40:07But like I've been wanting, I've been watching SEO for a while and I think that generally, as long as you're not doing shady things, you don't have to worry about much. Right, Jacob: 00:40:16Content that people click on and find useful it will work. Right? Like, but when I did our blogs for revenue cat, initially the ones that got really good traffic for us kind of got us off the ground. Like I didn't, I didn't think, like I thought a little bit like, oh, what are people going to Google?Whatever. But no, I was just like, I'll just make plus that people will read and spend time on and share. And like that's all it took. And you'll find the posts that some of the posts that I did that were intentionally like, I'm trying to be like, SEO smart. Didn't do that. Well, the ones where they were just really good posts and like contained a lot of really good content and get referenced a lot. Those are the ones that still generate traffic for us. So like, which is nice because you don't have to be like an SEO master anymore. You can kind of just make good stuff and do Alex: 00:40:56Yeah. Jacob: 00:40:56Things. Yeah, David: 00:40:57Yeah, I was going to ask, I think we talked about this, but have you, have you done some paid marketing and how's that gone for you? Alex: 00:41:05Yeah, definitely. We did use paid marketing to like, scale up, by like a two X factor. So did that add a little bit of extra? And, so we've been running on Instagram and Facebook, and it's been pretty productive to the point where it's almost NetSpend zero. it's like we spend a dollar in advertising and then we make a dollar in revenue.We're still very early. And so we haven't had enough months. Like the, the, the pain point is if you do a trial. It's actually a much longer, payback period or like what finance people would call a float. And then a lot of people expect, because let's say you have, we're generous. We have a 30 day trial, which is like a bit much for a mobile app, but we do it.And so 30 days, and then the user subscribes, and then you get paid and then apple will pay you a month later. Right. So you actually end up with like up to a 90 day float. and so that's not as tight as I would like hope for, but it's better than nothing. And I think that's the key is that like, because we're a revenue generating app we're able to do the ad spend in like a reasonable way.I think if that weren't the case, then it'd be very difficult.David: 00:42:12Yeah. And, and at some point, I mean, with, with your other strategies of referrals, of SEO, of building a base of users, that then you can get more and more partners, you know? So, so if you went to home Depot, 10 million active users, then that's a much more attractive proposition to them. so at some point, you know, spending at a loss might actually make sense, but it's amazing that the subscription, model enables you to even spend break even, but keep that flywheel going, which is it's.That's incredible.Alex: 00:42:52And I think the NetSpend break, even that creates an interesting exercise because then it's like, it becomes, we didn't get into like financing, but like if you fundraise That's then a good reason to fundraise because then if you have more capital, you can put that capital to work. Because if you know, you'll make, if you have a dollar, now you'll have a dollar again in 90 days, as long as you can carry that float.Well, then at the end of 90 days you have a dollar and a user Jacob: 00:43:17Yeah, which is like, has, has value, right? Like you've increased the value of your user base has adult, you know, dollar per user active value essentially in the venture market or revalue reevaluate. Right. So, it, it does make sense. So yeah, I w I want to ask, like, You guys, it seems like your apps pretty developed for how long you've been working on it a year and change.Right. and you mentioned, you mentioned this, like finding iterating to like a retention goal. Like how did that go? Did you start with just like the basic function, like the most basic thing and then add stuff until you got, and what, what I guess specifically, like what metric were you looking at to say like, okay, retention is good now. Alex: 00:43:58Hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. So we did start with the most basic core functionality, and I think one of the things that we did that I would do again, We just solved our own problem. So like I, so we, we started at the beginning of COVID, so like New York where I live, locked down basically the day, almost the day that I left Tinder.Right. And so and so I remember I'll never forget things were shutting down. So I ran to the nursery nearby plant nursery, and I bought like 30 plants. Cause I was like, I need to have the problem in order to be deeply motivated to solve it. Right. Cause like, if you actually have like over 10 plants, keeping track of them kind of socks a little bit, it's hard.And so I knew that I needed the problem and that motivated us and, and our whole team really, we basically just wrote like a prototype app to solve our own problem. and once it was working for us is when we started bringing like beta users in, we did like a test flight, version for a month brought in like maybe a thousand or I think it was 2000 beta users total and there in like August, 2020.And. Jacob: 00:44:59Did you, how did you get that list for the beta? Just Facebook and Alex: 00:45:04Facebook. It was, it was mostly Facebook like groups and stuff like that. Jacob: 00:45:07Mm. Alex: 00:45:08Yeah. and it posted on Reddit. Reddit is hard. but, we did a little bit Jacob: 00:45:15Rip off middlemen made easy. That's my favorite. We posted, I posted right. It was where we launched two and I have this, this favorite hater quote that I have like screenshot it on my desktop that I will hold on to until we IPO. Alex: 00:45:27The hater codes or something people should be prepared for, I think,Jacob: 00:45:30Yeah. Alex: 00:45:32But let's see. So we solved that. Here's the key is that we specifically, for our app, we wanted to solve the retention piece first. And so he chose the behavior in the app that would be associated with retention because the way that I personally think about retention is that right.What happens is you have a trigger. So a person needs an external trigger to think about opening your app. Right? So it could be a feeling that they have like Tinder, it's a feeling I'm bored or I'm lonely. And I want to see people, and that's an external trigger that causes a person to think about your app.Then you need value to them to actually open your app. Right? Like, okay, I have this trigger in this app can adjust that trip. Sure. So for us, we didn't have like an emotion, but we did have, the need for reminders. And so basically we, leveraged push indicator very heavily. Our whole app is like a water reminder app right now that's the core value.And so we built that specific functionality, water reminders before anything else, because we wanted to validate, is that a sticky behavior? Is that something that people will actually want to do and use over like six months? Right. And because we knew we wanted to get six months of data, we had to build it first.Right. Because you have to really think about how long it's going to take to get that validation. and we were bootstrapped. And so we knew that like, well, we can't bootstrap for forever. Right. And so we needed to front load the questions that we knew investors would be asking when we went out to fundraise.David: 00:46:57So speaking of which you just raised $5.4 million seed round, how, tell us about the process. It sounds like you were, you know, having been at Tinder and been in Silicon valley and in the industry, that was your goal that you didn't come into it thinking you were going to bootstrap this forever. and you were specifically kind of building up some of those retention numbers and other things that you knew investors would ask for.So, how did fundraising go having kind of iterated into that direction? Alex: 00:47:35It's definitely hard as hell. I don't know, like you don't ever say that it's not. but it wasn't, it wasn't like excruciating. I think recruiting is actually probably a little bit more difficult, especially right now. There's a lot of, a lot of movement in the, in the why people are working, how they wantJacob: 00:47:51It's easier. It's easier. to write a check than it is to take a job. I think, you know, like to give it to somebody to do, do Alex: 00:47:57You can write multiple checks. Right?Jacob: 00:47:58Yeah. It's not your, it's not your every day, you Alex: 00:48:02Exactly. Yeah. So, let's see. We actually, to go back to your first point, we weren't, completely, we hadn't decided that we were definitely going to raise VC capital. and so there was like, like we did work through that as a team and we ended up deciding, various specifically. Our mission is one that we believe would benefit from us being good at raising capital, because we think that if we can bring capital and talent to this industry and this problem domain, that's a good thing.And then even from a life perspective, like we wanted, we want to move quick, we want to be able to grow. You want to be able to like, build delightful things for lots of people. and so that was, that was the main motivation behind the VC capital. I think it's a big trade-off. so we, we definitely did not take it lightly and we did deeply evaluate Jacob: 00:48:49Closes, off a lot of paths, Alex: 00:48:51It does. Yeah, Jacob: 00:48:52You kind of really narrows what your future, I mean, Alex: 00:48:55Yeah, Jacob: 00:48:55You on a trajectory to something potentially much, much bigger, but it Alex: 00:48:58Yeah, Jacob: 00:48:59Of like brings down your, your options. Alex: 00:49:02It does. Yeah. And I think you just have to think about like, am I okay with needing to focus on eventually providing an exit to these people who trusted with their capital, right. Yeah. And I think maybe something that people don't think about is like the CEO, whoever is fundraising. Like you, you build a relationship with your, your, your VC partners, right?Like I consider them like life journey partners at this point. And so it's not that like, it's certainly not an adversarial relationship. It's more like I have a true responsibility to these people because we had a clear, like, this is the agreement is like capital and then they have obligation to their investors too.And so, you know, I'm aligned with that and I think you're right. You just have to think about like, is that, is that aligned with my vision for this, this journey, right. David: 00:49:45And then speaking of, of an exit, you shared with me, you have a very unique approach to employee equity. I'm actually curious to hear at, Jacob's take on this, having gone through the whole thing, himself, but Yeah. Tell us about your equity structure. Alex: 00:50:05Yeah. We, we definitely are, experimenting and trying something different and I think there's pros and cons.Jacob: 00:50:12Investors love that, by the way. I'm sure those were easy conversations. Alex: 00:50:17Surprisingly most investors were, were okay with it. I definitely had a couple that were concerned about, the implications in the medium term, but here I'll get to what it is. So, yeah. Okay. So basically, like we, wanted to distribute as much of the financial ownership of the company across as many of the early teammates as we could.And the reason for that is like the real thought that I had that whether or not other people think about this kind of thing, I would, I would encourage people to ask the best, which is, if I have an exit, how big of an exit would I really want to feel very fortunate about. Right. And like, really think about like how much money do I actually need.Right. Because I think that there's a lot of people who get caught up with like, I want a billion dollars, right. Or like, I want like a hundred million dollars. I've been fortunate enough. Like we pointed out earlier, my first company was acquired for like a fine amount and then Tinder totally exploded. I didn't own as much of it, but it is still a positive outcome.And I can say that like they didn't change anything. And I know it's a very cliche thing to say, but I think it's a productive exercise that if anybody was founding a company, I would recommend asking, at what point am I again, feeling fortunate about the outcome, right? And then what we really thought about is our ability to recruit a great team.And basically the decision that we made is that, there's really two aspects to equity. and I'd be curious again, Jacob's take on this there's there's compensation for risk. So early teammates take more risks, quote unquote. Right? And so that, that's a typical, like reason for, founders taking a large, large Jacob: 00:51:52Costs risk mostly. Right. But Alex: 00:51:54Opportunity cost and risk.And then the other dimension that I think about is. Where, early stage companies are hard for everybody who's involved. And my prior experience pointed towards like the first 20 people who joined the company, or at least definitely 10 or 15, all worked, pretty much as hard. And definitely at least not like 10, it's impossible to work 10 times harder. Right. And so, Jacob: 00:52:19And with less M with less glory, to be honest, Alex: 00:52:22With less boring. Yeah, Jacob: 00:52:23Don't, they don't get all the likes on follows on Twitter or whatever. Right. Alex: 00:52:27Exactly.Jacob: 00:52:28Try to distribute it, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a grindy place to be for sure. Alex: 00:52:33Not getting the glory is like a, it's definitely a double edged sword because I think that that glory is also a responsibility. Right. But, yeah. And so basically we decided to try this approach where we wanted to do this exercise of distributing that equity as equally as possible. And so he set up a mathematical curve where whenever I make an offer, I just look at this math equation.What is the amount of equity that this next person gets. Right. and, and so, and we did that and basically projected out like, okay, each person gets to like, like if we reached a billion dollar company, each teammate should have an outcome of something like $10 million or more, right. Like something, something above that number.And it was really important to map that out because otherwise it can go forward. And, yeah, basically that, that was our exercise. I mean, basically they decided like, okay, can we, can we turn that around a little bit? And, the side effect that I like, so again, we're, we're early in this, like, we're, we're an eight person team we're in a 15 and it may turn out to be complicated.And again, we check in in a year, but what I like about it is it, did enable a completely transparent cap table. Right. And that's nice. Cause like, I don't think it's like maybe required, but I do like being able to show people like this is who owns this Jacob: 00:53:50Who owns with you? Right? Alex: 00:53:53Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so that's a positive side effect.But there's definitely it's complicated.Jacob: 00:54:00Yeah, I well, so David, my take is actually we do something very similar that's I like also like, so interestingly and, and inside, inside baseball, I think, it it's it's we, we did, something similar. No, we weren't as scientific with it for the first, like we had like a rough rule, but it was like the same, like X, each number, like the number like decreased, like, but this backoff curve, I've found it a very, it's a very hard problem to reason about, because you want, you want to think about this, you want the hundredth employee to have some skin in the game.Right. But you, you need to balance that with like, Hey, like come join this company that you've never heard of. And like probably has like worst benefits and you know, who knows it's going to be, it's going to be a mess. Right. And so like, finding that balance is really hard. and, and, you know, Looking at where we're at 30 people now, and the complexity definitely grows. And then I think also you start thinking about like recruiting leverage and like, what, you know, what, how much equity do I need to offer to be able to like, recruit these different types of roles and things like that. And your systems get more complex, but, but, but it's still, did you guys, did you do something special on special on founder equity to create like more, more room on the cap table?Or did you ha how many co-founders do you have?Alex: 00:55:11That's such a blurry line. I don't know if this is just me by name or no, like, well, is that the fourth person? Like, I mean,Jacob: 00:55:18I guess that's true. yeah. Alex: 00:55:20Yeah. Jacob: 00:55:21A, maybe that's a, it's a YC thing is where they're like very clear, like who are the co-founders and who are not But, but yeah, I, I agree. It's probably mostly a, a label.Alex: 00:55:32I feel like we have six co-founders. realistically there were, there were two of us that were like, thinking about this, you know, like that's not true. There were three of us that were thinking about this, like two years ago. so we, I, I called them co-founders and so we're all on this same plans.Like we have this graph where like, I am the first black. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, It's Jacob: 00:55:51Interesting. Alex: 00:55:53Like as much as possible. And so the hardest, this plan is definitely hardest on the first three people and it requires incredible cultural buy-in to that because it means that the outcome, like, I, I definitely worked on this for a lot longer than like the people who are joining today.Right. And like, it was stressful and hard, but here's, here's my, my, my personal take. And, is that I actually think the risk of doing startups and I feel like YC, you may agree with us. The risk of doing startups is like so much lower than most people realize for people who have the fortune of having a safety net.Right? Like if you're, if you, if you have a family and you don't have savings, then like, of course that is a, that is a risky proposition. for people who are relatively early or mid stage in their careers and they have savings and they're not actually gonna end up in a really dangerous spot, then I think that startups are almost always a net positive.If you really apply yourself, because the amount that you learn and grow by solving that many problems, only accelerates your career. Right. And so going back to the risk versus there's also opportunity costs, and then there's effort. I personally discount the risk for people who are fortunate enough to have that safe space.I discount that risk almost to zero, because I think that it's just such a, even this time around for me, my second startup, I have learned so much and it's been such a good life experience that even if it didn't work out tomorrow, net win. For sure. Sure.Jacob: 00:57:17Yeah. David: 00:57:18So part of the reason I brought it up was that I, when I joined and I've told Dick at this, when I joined revenue, this is way inside baseball. Goodness a open, an open enough on the podcast. But when I joined Romney, I thought more along the lines of you, Alex. Like I thought, well, why is Jacob getting so much more of the company and, and revenue Katz, like the first 10 employees and then the next 20 it's actually, it's very generous compared to the industry, like take a, did an incredible job and has been great with equity.So, but, but early on you, you're at a startup and you're like, wow, I'm working really hard. He's working really hard. Like why, why, why is the outcome going to be so different? But honestly, 18 months in and Jacob having raised a series B and like taking a lot of the hardship, like you as a founder are going to have to do things and be under amount of stress.And like, there, there really is. And I, I don't, it's probably somewhat true for maybe those, you know, those first early employees, how carry a little bit of that load, but the F but a founder just has to carry a different load. And so. Jacob: 00:58:29It's always going to fall on that first two, you know, whatever people on the cap table. Right. Whatever it's going to keep rolling until it hits you at some point. And, you know, as it gets bigger. yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know. It's an, it's an interesting, this could very easily devolve into like the nature of capitalism and ownership.Right. Because it doesn't, it plays very much against this, like, you know, constant, like Marxists debate about like labor versus capital and like, what are the value and what is like value and like, cause you know, you like, you had this whatever period it was one month, one year or whatever. That's like such, you know, if you

Disciple Up # 217 Should We All Be Iconoclasts? By Louie Marsh, 6-30-2021     icon·​o·​clast | ī-ˈkä-nə-ˌklast  Definition of iconoclast 1: a person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions 2: a person who destroys religious images or opposes their veneration   Synonyms: bohemian, boho, counterculturist, deviant, enfant terrible, free spirit, heretic, individualist, lone ranger, lone wolf, loner, maverick, nonconformer, nonconformist   Antonyms: conformer, conformist   For the Meaning of Iconoclast, Break It Down   Iconoclast is a word that often shows up on vocabulary lists and College Board tests. How will you remember the meaning of this vocabulary-boosting term? If you already know the word icon, you're halfway there. An icon is a picture that represents something. The most common icons today are those little images on our computers and smartphones that represent a program or function, but in the still-recent past, the most common icons were religious images. Icon comes from the Greek eikōn, which is from eikenai, meaning "to resemble." Iconoclast comes to us by way of Medieval Latin from Middle Greek eikonoklastēs, which joins eikōn with a form of the word klan, meaning "to break." Iconoclast literally means "image destroyer."   First Known Use of iconoclast in English 1641, as an icon destroyer.   Article on this: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/neil-seeman/iconoclast-genius_b_4116396.html   https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-88/great-iconoclast.html   Joy asked Lewis to autograph her copy of his book, The Great Divorce. He wrote, "There are three images in my mind which I must continually forsake and replace by better ones: the false image of God, the false image of my neighbours, and the false image of myself. C. S. Lewis 30 December 1952 (from an unwritten chapter on Iconoclasm)."   Lewis was saying that spiritual growth is iconoclastic because it constantly breaks our idols and replaces them with something better.   Iconoclast in Church History:   https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/iconoclasm   Iconoclasm (Eikonoklasmos, “Image-breaking”) is the name of the heresy that in the eighth and ninth centuries disturbed the peace of the Eastern Church, caused the last of the many breaches with Rome that prepared the way for the schism of Photius, and was echoed on a smaller scale in the Frankish kingdom in the West. The story in the East is divided into two separate persecutions of the Catholics, at the end of each of which stands the figure of an image-worshipping Empress (Irene and Theodora).   Luther & the Iconoclasts: https://lutheranreformation.org/history/luther-and-the-iconoclasts/   Was Jesus an Iconoclast?   “13The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.” 17His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” 18So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.” (John 2:13–22, ESV)   “1On a Sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands. 2But some of the Pharisees said, “Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath?” 3And Jesus answered them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?” 5And he said to them, “The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”” (Luke 6:1–5, ESV)   What About the apostles?   “9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,” (1 Thessalonians 1:9, ESV)   “16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. 22So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.” (Acts 17:16–25, ESV)   “15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 17But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.” (Galatians 2:15–21, ESV)   What happens when you tear something down without a plan to replace with something better?   What needs to be smashed today?   What are the idols (icons) in the church today that to be challenged and removed? Remember I'm speaking largely metaphorically, not about physical idols.   Some say the denominations, like the Southern Baptists for example, need to deal with issues of racism in their history more and are even introducing parts of Critical Race Theory to do so?   Is it even possible to follow Jesus and not be an iconoclast to one degree or another?   What idols in our culture need confronting?   CRT? PC speech and action codes? Gender issues? Sexual morality in general?  

David Smith is a full-time independent app developer. Since 2006, David has owned and operated a small company focusing on creating applications for the iPhone and Apple Watch.David has built many successful apps over the years. His most recent app, Widgetsmith, went viral and hit #1 on the App Store. It has over 50 million downloads. David's other successful apps include Watchsmith, Pedometer++, and Sleep++.David also co-hosts a weekly podcast called Under the Radar, where he and his co-host Mario Arment discuss Apple-related topics.In this episode, you'll learn: How to transition from a hobbyist to a full-time app developer Two big mistakes to avoid when starting out as an app developer How customers find new apps in 2021 The biggest waste of time and money for an app developer Links & Resources The LibriVox project Mirror app Launch Center Pro app David Smith's Links David's Website Audiobooks app Widgetsmith app Watchsmith app Pedometer++ app Sleep++ app Under the Radar podcast David's Twitter: @_DavidSmith iOS Version Stats Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.Episode TranscriptDavid Smith: 00:00:00I've launched, I think it's 56 or 57 apps at this point, and all but about six of them have completely failed. I say that mostly because I've launched more failures probably than anyone in the App Store in some ways, and that's the way that you can end up with success, I've just kept trying, and it got me that little baseline of income that it was like, okay, I'm not just wasting my time here.David: 00:00:19Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I'm your host, David Barnard, and with me as always Jacob Eiting. Hello Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:43Hi David Number one, How are you?David: 00:00:46I'm good. Our guest today, maybe number two, is David Smith, long time indie developer and podcaster. Starting with Audiobooks in 2009, David has built many successful apps over the years, including Widgetsmith. Pedometer. His most recent app, Widgetsmith went viral on TikTok, and hit number one in the App Store.Welcome David.David Smith: 00:01:10Thank you, It's great to be here.David: 00:01:11Yeah, it's great to chat. We've chatted in person a few times, and bumped into each other at WWDC over the years. You've been doing this pretty much since the very beginning, right? Audiobooks came out in 2009, when did you actually start working on that?David Smith: 00:01:27So, It wasn't even my first first app. I think my first app that never went anywhere, it was launched in 2008. So, I mean, I was within a couple of months of the App Store launching. So I've been doing it essentially as long as you could, and I think I started working on, oh yeah. Audiobooks, the end of 2008.And it's just kind of grown from there. So it's about 13 years in the App Store.David: 00:01:46Like me and Jacob, actually, we both had apps...Jacob: 00:01:50In the on days of paid up front, and only 200 apps on the App Store, and all that. It is a good time. Were you a developer, like a Mac developer before that? Or how did you trip into iOS?David Smith: 00:02:06Sure. I was a web developer before I did this, and so, I mean, honestly, I started writing apps before I even actually owned an iPhone. I just, it seemed like a good opportunity and I wasn't particularly happy where I was at work and it was just something that I thought would be interesting opportunity.And I started learning and didn't know what I was doing for a long time, but just kept at it. And so it's just one of those things I got into mostly because it seemed like a good opportunity at the time. And so, you know, I just, eventually I initially was doing some web consulting as well as my iOS work.And eventually they just, the web consulting disappeared and it became iOS full-time, and that's sort of been the story for more than a, you know, like 10 years now probably.Jacob: 00:02:47Yeah, no, I was, Kind of similar, like I just saw it coming and it was like, Hmm, maybe I should. And I went and picked up the Macco OS, the the Hillegass book and learned Mac OS programming, like, yeah, because there wasn't the iOS book, right. There was no iOS, it was iPhone iOS. But yeah, it was a different time, fewer apps way, smaller community.So, yeah. Interesting decade.David: 00:03:15I do want to start by digging into the story of Audiobooks, and, I think one of the, one of the interesting things to me, because it happened to me as well, is how having this kind of foundation app that, that started in 2009, that did well enough. And, and I'm, I kind of jumping ahead here a little bit, but I, I think if I know your story correctly, Audiobooks is kind of what helped you make the leap to be full-time indie. And then once you become full-time indie, you started to have the time to experiment with all these other apps, and a similar thing with me, like I've had a couple of key apps over the years that kind of provided that like foundation of income that let me keep going.And then, that allowed me to experiment with all these different apps, like launching a pro ended up coming out of, of already having income to be able to take this big bet. and then mirror came along where it was doing really well, and I was able to take other bets. And so it seems like that's somewhat the story of Audiobooks.So, so let's, let's dig into that. So it was 2008, you had had a failure and then you, you start working on Audiobooks in late 2008. what was the, what was the inspiration and, and, and, and how did how did you kick off that?David Smith: 00:04:31Audiobooks was an app that it's essentially, it's a, it's a wrapper and a player for a free public domain Audiobooks. that was all it was, and it was essentially just coming into the market because. at the time, I mean, there were there, wasn't an easy way to listen to any Audiobooks, on the iPhone at that point.And there wasn't an audible app there wasn't, apple didn't have anything and it was just, you could, I guess you could listen to Audiobooks, I think in the music app potentially, but it was...Jacob: 00:04:57Yeah, you can buy them on iTunes. Right. And they were like, 20 bucks a pop.David Smith: 00:05:02Yeah. And So that's where the idea for the the app came from, and it became, and it's just sort of, it, it just, it took off in a way that I wasn't really expecting and it was successful.And because it was an app that had a very broad appeal, it was something that I think, as you say, it's sort of like built a platform for me to. Then continue to experiment and try things. And, I mean that, that app has gone through originally, it was paid up front and then it went free with ads. And then I tried selling my own ads for awhile.I sort of went through lots of different models over it over the years, but, it was certainly the app that I think was my first thing that was commercially viable, where I don't think. On its income. Initially I would have been able to go into, but it was the kind of thing where it became a client for me when I was doing consulting work.And I would say like, you know, it would buy my time because it would start generating enough income. And at first it was like, maybe it would buy me 10 hours a week that I could work on my kind of like independent stuff and then make the event, it would do better. And, and now could buy 20 hours a week of my time and eventually it bought all of my time.And I think that model worked really well for me to have that initial success that I could then keep trying things. And I mean, I've. Launched. I think it's up to, I think it's 56 or 57 apps at this point. and all of it, about six of them have completely failed. Jacob: 00:06:18That's incredible.David Smith: 00:06:20And I say that mostly because it's like, it is so easy.It's like I've launched. So I've launched more failures probably than anyone in the App Store in some ways. And they're like, that's the way that you can end up with success though, is, is that it's just like, I've just kept trying. And I think Audiobooks was a useful one because it got me that a little baseline of income that it was like, okay, this is not just, I'm not just wasting my time here.But it allowed me to then just keep trying and lots of things that, you know, lots of ideas and lots, lots of things went different places. Some of them had their moment in the sun and then like failed off. Like there was a period in the App Store where you, the classic model is you had a paid up front app and you'd make, you know, a reasonable amount of money in the first two weeks.And then it would make almost no money ever again. And that was just the way it was. And like that's a model that. isn't very sustainable, but you know, it's like if you had something that had a bit more, you know, regular income as a baseline, you, you could make work.Jacob:00:07:13And that's how you incentivize a developer to make 60 some apps it's still like,David Smith: 00:07:17Exactly.Jacob:00:07:18And I just said it like a curiosity. Did the Audiobooks in Audiobooks, what was the source for those are those like prerecorded public domain or.David Smith: 00:07:27Yeah, exactly. So there's a thing called the LibriVox project where people volunteer to read, classic Audiobooks, such as, you know, essentially, you know, Dickens or Jane Austin or things like this that are out of, out of copyright. And so people volunteer to read them. And then, those are just available on the internet.And this, essentially my app was just a wrapper for that. It was just a way to, get into that. And the people who act, who run the liberal box project were actually very happy with it. Like they, they cause for them. There was no easy way to get their audio onto an iPhone. And so they were delighted that there, you know, this app is just creating a venue for their project to get a lot more visibility and interest.Jacob:00:08:06And he got an incredible like App Store parked name, just Audiobooks. That's a great one.David:00:08:12That's exactly what I was going to dive into. Like how did, did, did that, was that just kind of a happy accident or in 2008, did you already start to notice? Cause it took me like. Three or four years, I'm a little slow on the uptake to, to realize that these like naming a keyword instead of trying to create a brand was actually a fairly successful strategy for a lot of apps.So did you just stumble into that or was it somewhat intentional?David Smith: 00:08:37No. I mean, I think it was largely just a result of, I didn't have a name. I didn't have a better name and because the content of it was so generic, it wasn't like there was a natural branding that I was doing this and it's like, yeah, it's the related to the App Store. So you could just pick a proper noun and it would be available because there only a few hundred.Grow a few thousand apps in the App Store. And so I picked it, I tried it and it certainly has turned out well in that regard that it still has reasonably good, you know, search, search, search optimization and things. Cause if you want an audio book and you go into the App Store and search Audiobooks, it's an exact name match.So, you know, audible likely, still ranks higher because it's has more traffic, but, it's going to be in one of the top, couple of hits. and that's just a natural thing. And I wouldn't say it was intentional. Like this is part of some grand plan, but, it is certainly something that. I found useful. I mean, many of my other apps, like I have an app called pedometer plus plus, and sleep plus plus, which, the plus plus when the App Store is doing its algorithm for searching, typically just sort of drops off.And so they start, they rank very well for those terms for sleeper pedometer. and then, but I learned though that it's important to have something be somewhat trademarkable just for, legal reasons and copycats and those kinds of things. And so. Having something additional to it, was helpful that I could trademark those terms and go after people who are, are being, you know, sort of trying to, trying to get that benefit from the, any sort of success I've had on it.But I think in those tricks, they're always a bit tricky cause like they, they are useful at the time, but they're not really long lived and you can't rely on them. Like. It's something. If apple just tweaks their algorithm slightly, then it goes away. So it's not worth chasing necessarily, but it certainly in this case, worked out well for me and was useful, but know less and less of a factor now.Jacob:00:10:24If you, if you made Audiobooks today, it would be Audiobooks, degree sign, tiny cross, probably.David:00:10:31That's I was going to ask though about, you know, algorithm changes over the years and things like that. Did you, have you seen a, cause you took it free in like 2010 or something, right? Like pretty early you switched to the in-app purchase model. so like, what I saw with my mirror app was that once I switched it to, it was like mirror by app heavy or something.And that switched it to mirror with like a little, Unicode symbol that looks like a mirror. And so then it was the exact match for a mirror. And then it just really took off and it was, it it's been the number. And I ended up selling that app in 2017, but it's still the number one, one hit for mirror on the App Store.And, I got to, I think around 2015, there was kind of a peak of like five, 6,000 organic downloads every single day. And then even though, even though like the ASO didn't change, like it still ranked for all of these keywords and everything else, it did slowly kind of start to dip. And, and I kind of wonder if that was, if that somewhat follows the kind of people going to the App Store searching generic keywords, it was like the iPhone more and more people were buying them more and more people were coming like first time into the app.So you can either confirm or debunk my, thesis here that, that. There was kind of a wave and then a, a, a crest and a, a fall of the, of these, organic searches on the, on the App Store.David Smith: 00:12:06I couldn't speak with authority about it, but that seems consistent with my experience where I think they're in the early days of the App Store, there is definitely a higher sense of just curiosity that people would open the App Store and just be browsing and just not necessarily looking for anything in particular.'Cause they didn't know what their phone could do. They hadn't like that they have a phone and they knew it was going to be good for, you know, texting an email, but, oh, there's an App Store. Let's see what it does. And I think that phase is certainly behind us that I think people know what they know. They know what they're to know.They know what they want to use their phone for. And very often they're going for a particular thing, not just like browsing. And I th and I think if you were. and similarly, I imagine if you're just one looking for a generic term, you may not start in the App Store, even if that's where you gonna get the app, you may start in, in Google or YouTube or somewhere else.Yeah. Like you're, you're, you're, that's because there's a mature enough ecosystem there. That there's a better way. Find that even though the App Store is a great place, but it's, I think that's some, those kind of just generic, organic downloads are much harder to sort of define at this point. And I think that that's just the reality.David:00:13:15Similar kind of build and crest and fall as far as like. Since, since Audiobooks is so heavily rely on organic installs you don't. I mean, from my understanding, you don't do any paid advertising for it. did it kind of pressed around that 20 14, 20 15 and then, or have, have organic downloads been pretty stable?David Smith: 00:13:35Yeah. I mean, I think I know, I couldn't tell you a date. I don't know if it, I actually look at the numbers, but it certainly isn't that way that there is that I think there have been a couple of phases of the App Store and there was the early first, maybe four or five years. you had that much sort of just higher interest and it was easier to be, be seen.And I would say sort of in the last five years, the ACQUITY user acquisition. Reality of being in the App Store is very different. That it, it is, there's a lot more either like, or just organic, organic is more and more challenging. And, I D don't do very much paid, but I think if that would be the only way that I've actually wanted to affect change, to my downloads beyond kind of just word of mouth and natural, sort of, I think at this point, a lot of my downloads are coming from.Sort of the word of mouth version of organic, rather than the someone coming to the App Store with a need and then trying to find it. and so that's just, that's just a guess, but I think there certainly is those, there, there, the App Store has changed dramatically in 13 years. I think there's, there's certainly no doubt about it.Jacob:00:14:31User base too. I mean, I think about the way that, that what we were talking about as I was thinking about like my usage patterns pre and kind of post that era. And I think one thing that has changed is kind of, I kind of found all the apps I needed by 2015, you know, I kinda got, I got my podcast app, I got my, this app, I got my, that app.I don't really go in there just doing that, that way. You're talking about, the, the like, oh, what can I find for my phone anymore? Right. It's just not something I do. I still occasionally get a recommendation or I find something organically or whatever, but, you know, and yeah, like. In 2021. This is very few people's first smartphone, right?This is like somebody's fifth iPhone plus. And so it's just like, there's less curiosity, I think, but I guess that's exactly what we're arguing here. Okay.David:00:15:18So you mentioned you you've probably failed more than any developer ever on the App Store, which is really cool. I mean, I, in some ways feel the same way. I mean, I'm, I'm not nearly as prolific as you, but I mean, I've had gosh, like 26 apps and maybe four or five have been reasonably successful. But so I'm going to put you on the spot here.Are there any, any things that really stick out of like, you know, and I can think of one app, cause I'm still working in this space w your weather app, but are there any apps that you can point to and say, you know, I learned a very specific lesson from this, in those failures. Cause I think a lot of people who've only ever had one app and that one app was super successful.There's kind of a confirmation bias. Like I'm awesome. I did everything right. But it's like, they don't even know what they do. Don't know, they don't know what they did wrong. They just happened to like hit some level of product market fit. So any, any specific apps and lessons you learned from these failures?David Smith: 00:16:18Failure is obviously a complicated thing because I think I learned something from all of them. And so in some ways they were, they were useful. But I think from a financial perspective, it's mostly what I'm talking about when they're sort of a failure on that. And I think the two areas that the biggest mistakes that I've learned is one is under.To try to really understand and having an honest evaluation of the size of the market you're addressing. and some of the things that I've launched are very focused. were very niche and. That kind of a thing. It it is possible to make it work, but the economics are incredibly difficult and you're dealing with a very uphill battle.If you're dealing with something that, there is only ever going to be useful to 10,000 people then great. That for that 10,000 people it might be really cool, but it's very unlikely. You're going to make a sustainable living on an app at that unless your economics can be so high, that each one of those people is giving you a substantial amount of money on an ongoing basis.I think some of my failures were things where I was like, Ooh, this is really cool. And it's an app that does something, very specific and it doesn't really end up working out. I think the other thing that I found too is just having that sense of. that apps understanding what are the ongoing costs of related to an app going to be, and making sure that the economics of that can balance out.So, in your example of my weather app, ultimately like the app was successful. It had, a reasonably good user base, but at that, this was, it existed in a time before, subscriptions were a thing. Like they just did it didn't exist in the App Store. And so. The economics of trying to make it so that people could continuously, you know, pay for the weather data that I had to buy for.It just wasn't there. And at a certain point, it became, it's like a change from being a business to a charity because I was spending more money on the backend. than I was, you know, getting people on an ongoing basis. And that was something that I don't think I really it's easy when I'm building something to just ignore that because the costs, especially early on are so low when you look at these things and especially with, with, with most, if you're some kind of data service or some kind of hosting provider you often will have a free tier or something that like the E and if in some ways, success can be your own failing because you haven't taken into account that, oh, if this, you know, if I get any amount of volume, then suddenly I'm going to be spending thousands of dollars a month.Supporting this app. And if the economics aren't balanced for that, then it can, you have to essentially shut it down and deal with that. And I think those are two things for that. It's usually when an app has failed it's because either I didn't fully understand what the ongoing constantly going to be, or I didn't sort of real it.Wasn't realistic about how big of a market it is.Jacob:00:18:54Yeah, the unit economics are tricky because at the beginning, it's, it's hard to get good to data because everything's so small. It's like, oh, I can't really tell. I don't really know what my CAC is or what my cost to service cogs are. So you're just like, whatever. And then by the time it matters, it's too late.Right. And in some cases,David Smith: 00:19:12The two that you just used several terms that I have no idea what they mean. and I think this is another failing on my part that like, you know, Kat Mike hack and my Sasser service caught, like, I dunno, like it's it's, this is fun. That was just fine. I think. But that's...Jacob:00:19:24An educational moment. Cost of user acquisition. And what's the cogs cost of goods sold. Sorry. Yeah, those were like, those are the things I didn't learn until I had a SAS company though, to be honest. Right. Like it's, it's interesting. Like, yeah, the different. Which, which, which, I mean, just highlights kind of the world we're in now.Right. Which is where most app developers are running a SAS business. Right. would you, would you wear with the weather app, you just didn't kind of think about it in those terms. It was like an app with an API, but really it was a SAS business. and, and, that's why we're here@subclub.com to educate people.Actually, it's not.David Smith: 00:19:58Yeah, well, but I think there's definitely that teachable moment in that insofar as it's just it's that's another aspect of that failing is I think it's so easy coming at it from an engineering background that I can get too excited about the engineering aspects of what I'm doing that. I think that, oh, there's this cool, cool new API.There's this fun new feature. There's this cool problem I'm solving. And I can go down, you know, spend a month of my time building this app. And then in the end, I haven't. Really thought about the marketing side or the economic realities or all of those things. And in some ways it's like, that's fine because part of what I'm like, what I'm good at is the engineering.And if anything, I've been able to just engineer my way out of this problem by keeping I can just keep building. And eventually I've had enough things that just kind of naturally hit. and it isn't necessarily the most efficient way to do it or the way I'd recommend it. But I think that is an aspect of my failing, where it is.You know, and it's, it's also the reality of being an independent, independent developer where. Like, I don't have a staff. I don't have anyone else in that regard. And so it's not like I have a business, a business, a business team, or someone doing user acquisition or any of those things, which on the one hand is great because it means my costs are really low that, you know, my, my revenue is divided by one and I get to see, you know, and I keep it.So if I was a team of five people and I'm dividing my revenue by five, it's quite a hard thing to, you know, Have five times to five X the revenue. And so it's like a trade-off that you, in some ways it'd be great if I had both have both, but I'm not sure if it's actually reasonable or practical too.Jacob:00:21:29I mean, really though, that's, it's a good algorithm for finding a new, new API APIs are the apps or version of the market shifting, right. It's when something gets created, right? There's a new opportunity. So exploring those and understanding those and finding out how you can remix those with existing ideas that might, that, you know, as a, as a team of one where one is an engineer, that's kind of your strategic advantage, right?It's might not, might not be ASO. It might not be acquisition and all these other things. it might be like, Hey, what can I do? Cool stuff with computers. And I think historically that's been a pretty good, ROI for, for a lot of companies. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily call that a weakness. though it's both right, but yeah.David:00:22:12Yeah. And that, that specifically has been part of your strategy, right? So like you, you know, I mean, Widgetsmith, which we'll, we'll get to in a little bit, but even, watch plus plus, but domino plus plus, or Widgetmith's sorry. yeah. Tell us about your thinking around using these new API APIs to get attention.Doing something that's never been done before as marketing, which, which is, is, is a great way to do it.David Smith: 00:22:42Yeah, well, anything. So this is certainly something I've done time of day. And again, that like predominant or plus plus, which is, after Bridget Smith, the most successful thing I ever made was the first pedometer app in the App Store. And it was, you know, when the iPhone 5s launched apple introduced to put a step counting ship into it.And it was the first app that took care of it. And it's like for a few weeks, even it was the only one. And it was. Probably one of my strategic advantages is the fact that I'm just one guy who really likes to program and is pretty good at doing things quickly. And that means that I can be there on day one.And I think that's beneficial in sort of two main ways that being out there early is something that often gets Apple's attention and. It's ebbed and flowed in terms of whether that's important for apple featuring you or not, but it's never a bad thing for a, for apple to feature you or to get on their radar.And, you know, as an independent developer, that's one of the few things that I have that I can kind of pull on that apple gets excited about where on day one, here's this app that takes care of this new thing that they're trying to sell their new phone withJacob:00:23:44Yeah. And that speed, that speed. Even like a one person team compared to like a three or five person team. There's a real advantage. If it's just one person like no communication overhead, no, nothing. Like you can just do it all in your brain. And like, it's really hard to be. I mean, now I'm saying this is watching, I haven't watched our company grow so much.It's like, wow. The just like getting all these folks coordinated at the same time really is a different world than when it's. Just yourself, like trying to put things together quickly.David Smith: 00:24:09Yeah. I mean, I think that, that, that's just such a, the other aspect of this, just so much. It's so, so often I can do something faster than anyone else. Not necessarily because there's something magic about me, but it's just, I don't have it. There's no, it's not like it does that. Oh, there's a designer who will, you know, do a bunch of specs and then that's going into it.We'll have it, then we'll have a sprint planning meeting and we'll break up the features. And it's this whole thing that like, that's not my process. I just open up X code and start working. And so it's an, you know, maybe it means that, I, you know, it's like, and I ended up with as long as I have a good idea in my mind, I can just be driving towards it.I don't need to go through a lot of infrastructure to get that. Like, I don't have. You know, a roadmap with tasks, with, you know, sort of issues that I'm working through and burning down my, like, whatever, all those software things that you need to do, if you have a big team and are valuable, but I just don't exist for me.And so there's that extra multiplier. And I think being there early. Is just, it gets, it gets attention and it creates opportunity that there's a vacuum. It's, it's a short-lived thing. You know, the, if I, if I had launched Widgetsmith a few, a few weeks later, I don't think it would've mattered. It would have been complete.Like it is this very ephemeral, like thing. It wasn't, you know, once a year, there's this giant opportunity for me and I've done sort of dove in and taken advantage of it several times. And sometimes it's worked and sometimes it hasn't, you know, like my message App Store apps didn't go anywhere, but. That turned out that was a market that didn't exist, but I spent my summer making sure that I was there and if they hadn't, if they hadn't been really important and was super cool.Cool. And apple cared about it a lot, then I would have been there and yeah. Or know that ahead of time, unfortunately, but that's, I think just something that a small team can benefit dramatically from is like taking advantage of that and being okay with too of not shipping things that are as robust and complicated as fair enough.If I was. A five person team. It could do more or have more capabilities or, you know, be localized into more, more languages or also launch on Android or whatever those things that, that you would imagine would be beneficial. I don't have those, but like, it's just a trade offJacob:00:26:09Yeah. Search your marketing channel primary. Right? It makes a lot of sense. We did this at, when I was at elevate. This was a constant strategy for us was what does apple interested in? Even, even for us, we were a team of 10 or 20 at that stage, but like, yeah. Adding APIs. Oh yeah, sure. It kind of makes sense.Okay. Yeah, we can add that. Like it's not on our product roadmap, not really something, but like yeah, the, the benefits were tangible, but as you kinda mentioned, it has gotten at some point, I think for a team of that size, the benefits of being in the, like what's new, I forget what the, they used to always have a feature like what's new in iOS, whatever.And you would get Nat and it would be a pretty good feature, but that has gone down over time. So now it's like, It's exclusively the, to the benefit of really small developer teams, right. That they can take advantage of.David Smith: 00:26:53Yeah, well, and it's just, I think that the impact of being fee, because to your earlier point about, I think fewer people are searching for apps. so being in a featured list in the App Store is not as the, is not the thing that it used to be. That I remember the first time I got featured in the App Store and it was.I just rev. It was completely, mind-bending where I would go from like, yeah, you lasted a week. And I went from, you know, maybe having like in the tens of downloads a day to suddenly I'm having like tens of thousands of downloads a day and it was just like completely mind-bending, but that's not the reality anymore.Like that, that multiplier isn't there in, the same way. Like, it's It's lovely to be featured, but it also is very muted now because it's not for a week. It's kind of on this random algorithmically driven basis, where if you're the app of the day, you're actually the app of the day, only for one person necessarily.Like it's not like everyone in the world got it that day. Um it's and so those, those things lessen the impact of it. and Their benefit becomes more in aggregate rather than kind of in an acute way.David:00:27:52One of the things you mentioned kind of in passing there was, not having to wait on a designer and that's something I actually wanted to talk about. I, you know, as much as it's like the apple ethos to be pixel perfect, and to like, have these like amazing, you know, leather stitched icons back in the day or whatever.I regret spending as much as I did and kind of letting design in some ways, overly drive the process. because as an independent developer, where every penny I spend is, is money. That's not going into my pocket. I spent tens of thousands probably over well, over a hundred thousand dollars on design over the last 13 years.And from what I understand, you've spent very little, so, so I mean, it sounds like that's intentionally part of your strategies. Like you, don't one you were saying, you know, you're not a team of five, so you keep your expenses down, but two you're, you're also not waiting on them. So yeah, it was at, have you spent much on, on design over the years or have you done it all yourself and then has that been a very intentional for, for speed and cost?David Smith: 00:29:07Yeah. I mean, I think I've certainly tried spending money on design and it over the 13 years, like I it's, it's not that I've never done it, but it's, it, it, I, it was never, it never paid off for me enough that it would. For it to be something I continued doing. And I don't think I've done it in five, six years now.And at this point, the only design that I typically will ever pay for is, icon design. because that's just something that I can't do very well myself, but even like recently, like Widgetsmith, the icon I made myself, cause it's just a blue round direct, like I could handle that.Jacob:00:29:41That's a good icon.David Smith: 00:29:43Which has been it's fine.Jacob:00:29:44And it's number...David Smith: 00:29:45Think, yeah, like.Jacob:00:29:47Icon designer actually.David:00:29:48Yeah.David Smith: 00:29:49And I think, but it's to the point of like, I think eight. It's easy enough to like, if you try to learn basic design and get competent at the basics, you can go, that can take you a very long way. And I think really elegant, new fancy design that's doing really like groundbreaking or cool things with fancy animations and all that stuff.Like I love it. And we're using an app that does that, but that kind of design, like that takes a tremendous toll on your development process. And I think. A M like a, if you're a thoughtful to the developer who wants, is willing to put in the work to just kind of like study what the basics of design are, you know, you can get good enough that you can do a lot of it yourself.And I think that's something that has worked really well for me. and I think it's also been to my benefit that it isn't necessarily that I'm not waiting on a designer. It is that I'm able to, I'm a better developer because I understood, I took the time to. Study what makes a good design for an app.And so I'm w that informs my development, and then it allows me to build things that'll be easy that are structured, such that the design will naturally flow from it. And those types of differences that if I just was being hand handed a list of like, here's a, you know, a handful of mock-ups go and build it.And I don't really understand why things are structured the way they are. Then I would often find myself in kind of, I'd pay myself into technical corners that, if, if you, if you are responsible for both the design and the development, you're that the two are blending together really well. And so I think it's something that I certainly recommend.And I think like, I mean, some of the best apps I think have come out of the one developer, one designer teams, like I think that is a can, we can be a useful model, but. For me, it's just something that I think, you know, in the same way that often I've, you know, I've known many designers who learn just enough coding to be able to sort of, to make the basics of the key, to the same thing and go the other way that, a developer who puts in a little bit of time and is a student of what, like, if you're using something and you start paying attention to why is this good?And you don't try and overreach and. Like try and do things that are beyond your capability. Like, I can make a really nice clean UI. I can't make a, you know, something that is, is clever and fancy and that's it. That's fine. And I'll just, if I scale my scale, my applications to fit, what I can do, then I'm fine.Jacob:00:32:13Yeah, I, I'll share it. Not like we're revenue count. We didn't have a, it, I mean, we have a full-time, product designer now that helps with like dashboard work and stuff like that, but we didn't have, I was the only person doing design for the first two years and very similar, like I, I knew going into it.It was my weak spot. So I spent a few weeks, one summer just like taking. I took an online color theory class. And then I just like learned, did some like basic tutorials got really good at sketch and like made some mock-ups. And, you know, I had worked with a lot of great designers and kind of had knew what the process was like.But yeah, again, it's like, what's your advantage? And in your case, it's the API APIs and being first to market and all that stuff. And so you're not likely to get a lot of like, Yeah, leverage or whatever out of having really great design, you just needed to be functional. You needed it to be good enough something.That's not going to turn people off right. When they see the app on and that's, and that's kind of the bar and yeah, I agree with you. I think it's actually pretty easy to achieve, at, you know, with a, with a minimal investment.David Smith: 00:33:14Yeah. And I think you also, it's, I'm very, I very much like a model where the initial upfront costs are as low as possible. And if I need to double down on something and like, it becomes a situation where, oh, now I need design resources or I need something more graphically oriented or like things arise.Like. I'm delighted to spend money on an app. That's making money.Jacob:00:33:36Yeah, exactly.David Smith: 00:33:37it, rather than spending the money on something before it's even proven itselfJacob:00:33:41Yeah. We've spent a lot on design since like revenue cat's hit like our stride, but in the early days it was like, not like this API is like the design of the Jason is more important than the website.David Smith: 00:33:53Exactly.David:00:33:53Yeah, and it does force this kind of function over form approach. And I think that's where your apps have really succeeded. Is that there is it, you focus on them doing things well, Like serving a specific purpose and serving that specific purpose very effectively. And that's where I think a lot of the kind of form over function design either within apple.I think apple still makes this mistake a lot of, of focusing too much on, on how things are going to look and how things are gonna, come across versus like, well, how, how is it actually going to be used by people? And, I, you know, that's where I think I've fallen down a lot, as well as like spending so much time on these pretty graphics.And then, and then everything then like the user you can't like iterate quickly on a user interface based on feedback when it's all so polished and pixel perfect. Like it's so much harder to do iterative design. To enhance the usability of an app when, when there's so many barriers and then so much already kind of like set in stone because it was designed this way and you can't, step back out of that as easily.So, yeah, I think, I think it's great the way you've, you've done that.Jacob:00:35:12The one thing that resonated with me that you said David was, just how a designer, if they don't fully. And I love designers, all of my designer, friends are gonna hate me for talking bad about designers, but I think one, one universal experience of developers when you get handed something that. It's it looks great and like functional on paper, but like, there's just like, because there isn't like internal knowledge of UI kit.Right. And just like this thing that looks like, yeah, I know it's just pixels and it should be really simple, but like, it's actually going to add hours and days to my, to my, and, and you know, if you're not an assertive developer, that's going to be like, no, I'm just not going to do it. You can do that on your business.Right. But like, Because you own it, but, but if it, you know, if you work on a team or whatever, sometimes there's a lot of loss there where a developer will feel. And also like, I feel like it's a challenge, right? Like, oh yeah, I can do that. Right. And they ended up over investing in these ornate, user experiences or use user interface elements.It just like you talk about like ROI and whatever, like just not there, you know? so I think it's a very like prudent approach.David:00:36:22So I did want to touch on real quick and. I want to get to Widgetsmith and talk more about that. But, I wanted to touch on the, your iOS version stats. So, it's something I've really appreciated over the years. There's a flurry has, has published stats here and there that your site has been like my go-to place to say, you know, how's I was 14 adoption going, how are so you published publicly?The, the version stats of your Audiobooks app, which is a fairly broad market app. It's not perfectly representative probably of the entire market. but yeah. Tell me about why you publish that and then do you actually run a customer analytics to power that, or, or do you have a third party analytics provided that you just pull the stats in front from.David Smith: 00:37:09So, I mean, that came from, I think there were certainly, I mean, I'm running it for years and years, because in the early days of the App Store, there just wasn't good data on this kind of thing. And it was so I, I remember finding that it was just so frustrating. Right. I, I couldn't get. Basic sense of like the different device distributions and, iOS adoption rates and things.And so I just wrote something, myself to do this, and I sort of shared it because it was really helpful. I thought, I, I, I, if it's helpful for me, it's going to be helpful for someone else. and Audiobooks was the best app. I had to make the public version of this for, because it was my broadest kind of user base, that it wasn't as like pedometer is great, but it's.Dealing with people who are fitness oriented. And so like my, at some of my adoption numbers are like th there's a skew to it and it's a bit less mass market. but it's all built in custom. I I've used analytics packages and things before, but, in the, in, especially with apple being. I think it's a sort of like the privacy consciousness and things.It became something that I just didn't want to have. I want to have it the minimum amount of third party code in my apps as I could. And something like the, the kind of analytics I'm collecting is very easy to do as just a little, sort of custom thing that I wrote. That's just, you know, it's just a little website.That's collecting some very basic stats and being thoughtful about making sure that it doesn't log essentially anything except for very anonymized. aggregated things just so I don't collect any user level information whatsoever. It's all just being collected, at, at, at an aggregate level. And it's just something that I wrote and it's, it's a basic thing.And I think it's a useful tool because this is sort of to the same thing of a question about philosophy. It's like, you can't know when you can drop all the old devices or which device to optimize for. And this, you actually collect that data and you actually look at it. and so like right now, for example, send that, I re like I always try and optimize my apps for the iPhone 10 R because in all of my apps, it is by far that screen size.So the it's the F1 10 or the iPhone 11. those are by far the most popular phones in the world right now. And so like, that's my primary testing device. That's where I start, but I wouldn't know that if I wasn't collecting that kind of data and. You know, sort of, I wouldn't have guessed that necessarily.And especially because I live in the like apple tech ecosystem and I wouldn't, you know, in my mind, oh, it's probably just like the pro size, you know, like the, the, the 11 pro is probably the most popular phone because that's what all my friends have. But, that's actually not the case. That's, you know, that is a popular phone, but it's by no means the most popular.And so. Having that kind of data to back up my choices and making sure that, you know, like, I, I, I, if am doing a design, I'll optimize it for that and then adjust it for the other ones rather than going the other way around. Or if I'm doing screenshots for the App Store, I make sure that my screenshots.Are perfect for that one. And even if, sometimes I'll do you know, for the, my, the more minor phones, I might just say, like use the scale down the assets for something else, but that's a size that I've we'll for sure. Use. I think also it's speaks to, there is, I think there's still some of this, but maybe a bit less, but in the earlier days of the App Store, there was a, I felt like there was a group of.People who were kind of, we felt like we were in this together. And, like, especially among kind of indie small developers, we tend to try and like help each other out. And so like I made that public, it was an internal dashboard. And then I just like, well, let me just publish this to a different URL. because if you had to kind of just help out.And I think that was a nice thing that I think there's just, there are fewer Indies than there used to be. but it's certainly an aspect of the community that I think is still nice when there are, there are some aspects of it that still exists.Jacob:00:40:52It's also really nice to have. usually I would caution people to roll against rolling their own. Right. but I think there is this like somewhat unserved niche of some of these tools get really expensive, even like an amplitude or a Mixpanel or whatever. They're, they're more. There, the pricing often is more favorable towards a B2B and like smaller headcount kind of, or smaller like user based size apps.And you can lose this, this like kind of information. I, and I gathered not an App Store connector. It's probably crappy if it is. David Smith: 00:41:24Like some of it's in there, but not really in a way that like abstract connect sometimes has some of the stuff, but I like, I like just having it myself and there's also, it means that I can do additional beyond just, demographic collection. There are a few things that I will do in here where I can add in a hook and say, Oh, like, do, does anybody ever open this page of the app?And I can do a little basic, like those kinds of basic analytics things that you can't do on that, do an App Store connect. and so I can put, you know, put this into my system and do those kinds of basic collections, which a more sophisticated analytics packages, just like, that's just a basic feature of it.But, it's a, it gives you that kind of middle ground and it's, it's just, it's a tricky reality of, you know, apple once, you know, I have to put in my privacy things, all the, you know, all the things that I do. And so. I start using a third party thing. I have to be completely on board with everything they're using my data for.And so sometimes it's easier to just roll it. Have it be basic and simple. I mean, the actual, these apps are not complicated or I think the initial version of this was actually, I just based it on the error log of a, engine X server, where I just ran it and they would make, they would make the record.They would just. Yeah, they would just make the request and they would actually just all 4 0 4, like the trend analytics requests were just 4 0 4 and I would just parse the error log and add it to a SQL file. And it's like that, that was super straightforward and easy to build. And it's just a script and it's...Jacob:00:42:47Mixed panel, basically like in...David Smith: 00:42:49Like, You know, and like that's where I think mostly just to say is it doesn't have to be like super sophisticated and fancy.This is a backend utility tool. So you can very easily, like you could go crazy making it fancy, or you can just, you know, write a little scripts to process a log file and it'll get just as much data out of it.David:00:43:09Yeah, that's great. I did want to touch on, on witness Smith. You you've talked about it at length, so, There's a great episode with you and Marco. I think what came out like two weeks after we just hit number one. And so that's a really fun episode. People can kind of go get the history, but it's a cool kind of, culmination of this story of launching 56 different apps, trying all these different things.And then you, you go after these brand new features with the widgets in iOS 14 and. somebody picks the app up on Tik TOK. It goes viral. It hits number one in the App Store. It's just such a cool story as an indie developer to hit number one. And, and, and again, you've told a lot of that story. other places I don't want to just rehash the whole story.But there were a couple of things that I wanted to go over and I don't know if you've talked about it, since so one of the things that I think would be to follow up on is just how the, Durability has been. So like you hit number one, it stayed there for like, gosh, like weeks, right. Or almost a month.And then, yeah. So how has it, how has that gone since, and like, you're still like number five you're you're in the top 10 of productivity regularly. how has the app been durable? download wise and revenue wise, like how, how has it gone after hitting number one? Like.David Smith: 00:44:37I mean, I think it is, it certainly continues to be my most successful app. And I think it probably, it seems like it will be for, for, for quite some time. And obviously the first couple of weeks were insane and completely. Like mind bending and, you know, I think I exceeded my luck like to date App Store downloads.You know, of all my apps over the last 13 years were in a few hours of it when it kind of hit that crazy moment.Jacob:00:45:03We've seen a couple on revenue casts, a couple of viral events like that, and I am blown away every single time. It's it's more like it outpaces the App Store featuring like by 10 or a hundred X. It's insane. David Smith: 00:45:15And I think that, and let me say that it was really cool and fun and exciting and a little bit like scary and like terrifying. But I think it's, what's, I didn't know where it would have, where it would settle down to. And it's like, where is that? Come see the nature of. Something being a flavor of the moment is that like, that moment ends and it just vanishes like the, the driver behind that, you know, it's not like it's being featured in Tik TOK videos anymore, at least not in the same way.And so the durability, I believe now is largely just coming from the fact that that initial spike generates enough kind of ongoing word of mouth advertising, that the nature of. Especially the nature of what it does is it puts something cool on your home screen. And it has that natural. If someone sees your home screen or you show them something or you share a screenshot and it has the name of the app in it, and it's like, it, it has that natural, oh, I want to do that to witness to it.And that seems to be where the durability has come from because, I've. Tried sort of like the, the sort of like the paid marketing things to try and keep something going. And for me, it's a model that gets very, it's very hard to not just like, lose your shirt on it because you can.Jacob:00:46:22Yeah.David Smith: 00:46:22Spent a way out, spend what you're getting back or not have.Jacob:00:46:26Someone else's money to blow.David Smith: 00:46:27Yeah. And so like for me, it's just, it never makes sense. And so, like, I w I wonder if something's going to be something that I keep working on, it needs to be sustainable kind of on its own. And for it, it's still, you know, it still continues to do really well on a, on a, on a download basis. And it's also, it's, you know, it has, it's monetized both with advertising and with subscriptions.And so. You know, th the two together create a really nice, sustainable, revenue for me that it's based mostly on usage rather than, needing necessarily to have big spikes in downloads to keep it going. It's like as long as people keep using the app, that they're opening, it they'll see ads, or if they're, you know, power users who really want like the pro features of it and they'd pay for a subscription, if it's continuing to provide value to them that they'll continue subscribing.And so it's, that durability has been there. I think largely it certainly is easy to be durable when you have. This wild spike at the beginning to kind of kickstart that, effort. but it's, it seems like the there's enough ongoing utility of it, that it keeps people keep using it. And, that has a natural sort of knock on effect of people just telling their friends about it.And I mean, it's kind of a cool thing that, even after. You know, many millions of downloads, it continues to find new art, find it, find a new market and people will continue to sign up for the subscription. And it's, it's that's happening sort of on its own without me having to necessarily do anything other than just keep adding, you know, features and improvements to it.I don't need to worry necessarily on that side of things as much.David:00:47:56Yeah. One of the things that I was, initially taken aback by, but now see the, the maybe accidental brilliance of how permissive you were with the feature. So, and I mean, I made a mistake with launch center pro. I was actually trying to kind of ride your coattails with my app and. I was much more aggressive with the paywall.So I pay walled one of the like more prominent features instead of, instead of paywall and some of the lesser features. And then to your point earlier about like user acquisition, you know, part of how you make user acquisition work, is it, you forced, you can't pay $5 for a download. If you know, one out of 200 people are paying you.But we just Smith going viral. It went viral in part, because you were so permissive with the features. So like, how did you decide where to draw the line in the paywall? yeah. How did, how did you make those decisions?David Smith: 00:49:01Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of this comes from a place of my goal is to, I want a business that lets me keep developing, like what I love and what I enjoy is programming. That's that's, that's, I'm gifted in it. I enjoy it. I love it. And I will just keep doing it. Like if it wasn't my job, I'd probably still be making apps.But, and so I don't, I'm not chasing some kind of like wild exit or something dramatic. And so I think, I, I feel like I want to make things that people will like using, and that will won't be annoying or irritating. And, that I can feel proud of at the end of the day, like that. I'm not, you know, like the people who are paying for my subscription.Or paying it out of a genuine desire to support the app, to do the really advanced, like these are my super fans who really care about it. and there are the people who I'm sort of sort of going after for that. And so I don't didn't feel necessarily compelled to make the paywall up all in your face and be limiting features and kind of doing those types of things.And in this case, it worked out really well because it, it created a. it created its own marketing machine as a result. And like what I gave up potentially in having a less permissive market, pay paywall strategy I made up for in essentially free marketing for, because the app is used by so many more people.And I think that trade off is something that's easy. It's like I don't have, or I don't necessarily want to spend the capital. To acquire those people, but in some ways I'm spending that capital by just making my paywall more permissive and making it have a natural, more virality to it. and that, for me, I think works well for everybody that like more people are getting more out of the app and, I, I benefit from it.It's sort of coming along and I don't think it was, it's not like that this grant. Strategy that I had for it. It was just in general, if someone's going to pay me something I want for what they're paying to be something that is super clear is super straightforward and is compelling. That is something that I feel like I would pay for that.It isn't an arbitrary restriction or something that feels kind of. mean-spirited, that's sometimes a lot of paywalls can ha you can run into these limitations that feel completely contrived, that there isn't a reason for it. Like most of what I'm people paying me for in Widgetsmith are things like my weather data, the tie data, and some graphical assets, things that I have to pay for that there are, they are ongoing and tangible costs that I have to pay.So I can't make those free because then I go out of business because millions of people are requesting weather data. Like that doesn't work for me. And so, yeah. Making it paid feels good to me. And if anything, it works well, but I think that's definitely something that you can get. If you're too stingy with you, with what you offer, you're kind of like shooting yourself in the foot because you're ma you know, you want to make that first run experience feel so good that people want to keep coming back.And if you get too uptight, that the first thing, the first thing the app does when you open the app is ask for money. Like if I open that app, I'm just closing that up and deleting it. Like, I don't want to, I don't want that, that, thatJacob:00:52:05I mean, that's, that's...David Smith: 00:52:06Be them asking.Jacob:00:52:08That's an app that's for distribution basically is what you can tell. And if you're not then like, I mean, I think this is not a comment on an uncommon strategy, but, but, but, you know, optimizing for distribution early, Becoming not a monopoly because there's other apps like we just missed, but becoming a dominant player or like the best app, you get data, you get usage, you get word of mouth, you get a brand.And then in the future, if it becomes an operational requirement that you make more money per download or whatever, like, oh, you have a lot of levers there and you can go about it more thoughtfully than if you try to like, Try to shoot blindfolded, like from, from the start, there's just no way you can, you're going to be able to get, I talked to a lot of people getting ready to make their subscription apps and whatever.And they're like, ah, they're going back and forth. I go, what should I put on my paywall? What should I, whatever. I'm just like, just don't think about it too much. Just don't do something stupid. Like just see something reasonable and normal and don't try to be too clever. And then, you know, be prepared to iterate and change like over time.Cause inevitably, well...David Smith: 00:53:06That's good advice. David:00:53:07This is such a fascinating time. I wish we could talk another hour just on, on, on paywall strategies and, and freemium. I think a lot of developers do make the mistake in the subscription space of because they're spending so much on user acquisition, they have to be more aggressive with the paywall, but then in the long run, you're, you're, you're paying for users that you immediately ostracize.You know, if you're, if you're only getting, you know, 10% to start your free trial, and then only 50% of those convert. It's like, you're paying for all these people who ultimately have a bad experience in your house. And so it works cause that's their model, but, but they're leaving a lot on the table long run by not having a more, permissive freemium strategy where you can get people in using the app, finding value and then over time bringing them along.And it seems like that's part of what Smith has done well with, like, you didn't start with ads. Ads came later, right. And then. The paying for assets, I think came later as well. so like exactly to Jacob's point it's like you just got out there with a great product, you know, found that product market fit.It went viral. I mean, you know, it probably wouldn't be the success it is today without that, but, but then you've kind of layered on some additional moneymaking over time. And so that's great. but anyhow, we're, we're at the top of the hour and need to, to wrap up, in the show notes, we'll have links to your, Twitter underscore Smith, underscore David Smith, Jacob:00:54:35Oh, my God. I never realized that pun Widgetsmith, Dave. Oh my God. I'm so slow.David Smith: 00:54:43Yeah.Jacob:00:54:44The brand is just so it's perfect, but we're on your lap. It's so great.David Smith: 00:54:49That was a, as soon as it was one of those names where once I, once the name came to me, it's like, yep. That's theJacob:00:54:53Oh, it's even, it's a good name on its own. Right.David Smith: 00:54:55Yeah.Jacob:00:54:56I just love when things are like tidy and tied up like that. It's so perfect. Sorry.David:00:55:02Anyways, anything else? anything else you wanted to share or, anything else you want to mention as we wrap up?David Smith: 00:55:08Yeah, no, I mean, I think we covered some good things and I think it is, I, I always like sharing my story as an independent developer, because I feel like in this industry, they're like, there's a, there's an aspect of it. I know this is something, you know, I've listened to this podcast before. Like there there's a, there is an industry in a branch of this.That is very data oriented. And if you're built almost like you're building a machine to try it, like a business machine to try and like spin off money. And it's all about how you're getting your conversion rate value to this, and then you can put it into this and the eights. There's a very like, and I respect that and understand that, that, that is a very viable business.But I think what I, I was like sort of to share the other side of the story where it's also possible to just make cool things and have them have just have enough, enough of a business in them that it makes a good living for you, but you don't need all of that infrastructure and all of that other things.And I think to our point, we've made many times is if you have something that you take the approach of simplicity and straightforwardness, and Craftsmanship early, you can shift and pivot and change as you go. And if you start to numbers driven and you start to like kind of cold in that way, I think you can lose just as many opportunities, as, as, as you could.And I personally, I enjoy this way. I think this is fine. I, you know, I'm very excited about WWDC next week, because it's the, the time that I get to just discover what I'm going to launch this year. Kind of thing. And so I'm very excited to become about that. I think that excitement is something that I wouldn't have if I was building something that I didn't enjoy doing in quite the same way.David:00:56:52Well, thanks, David so much for your time.Jacob:00:56:56Good luck next week. 

Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear. If you've listened to this podcast for any amount of time, you know that I'm passionate about customer service and listening to customers. A few months ago, we noticed something wasn't working on the Oh Dear dashboard. We reported it to them, and they fixed it almost immediately. Everybody has bugs occasionally, but not every company is so responsive to their customers, and we really appreciate that. You can sign up for a 10 day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Colleen Schnettler  00:35So Michele, I'd love to hear about how things are going with the book.  Michele Hansen  00:40They're going. Um, so after our episode with Sean last week, I realized that I kind of, I have to launch this thing eventually, right?  Colleen Schnettler  00:54Yes.  Michele Hansen  00:55And, you know, for, you know, I mean, for months I've been hearing that advice of, you know, do a, do a presale and like, start selling it beforehand, And, and I was like, yeah, I mean, you know, I, that's the best practice. That makes sense. And then just kind of be like, but that doesn't apply to me, right? Like, I couldn't make, um. It's, you know, it's funny, because it's almost, I feel like the way people feel about when they hear about customer interviewing, they're like, that sounds really valuable and like the right thing to do, and I'm just gonna act like that doesn't apply to me.  Colleen Schnettler  01:29Yep.  Michele Hansen  01:30So that's kind of how I was, and talking to Sean really kind of got me to be like, okay, okay, fine. I should actually sit down and do this. So I got a very simple website together, and then I actually did end up launching the presale.  Colleen Schnettler  01:46Oh, congratulations.  Michele Hansen  01:48Yeah, that was super scary. Like, because the book  Colleen Schnettler  01:50I bet. Michele Hansen  01:53And, like, random places where it says like, insert graphic here. Colleen Schnettler  02:01So tell us how many books have you sold?  Michele Hansen  02:03Okay, yeah, so I guess I get to do, like, a numbers update for the first time. This is fun. Um, so I have sold 34 copies.  Colleen Schnettler  02:15Wow.  Michele Hansen  02:16Presale. Colleen Schnettler  02:17That's a lot.  Michele Hansen  02:18So, and that's not including for like, you know, platform fees and whatever. Just like, you know, $29 times 34, basically. $986.  Colleen Schnettler  02:32That's amazing. Congratulations!  Michele Hansen  02:35So close to that, like, 1000 mark, which, I was talking about this with Mathias earlier, and he's kind of like, I feel like that's like a, you know, that's like, the legit threshold, is 1000. Like, and I don't know why, but it's like, yeah, it's like that feels like, that feels like the, the, like, the first big hurdle.  Colleen Schnettler  02:55I totally agree. That's wonderful news. Congratulations.  Michele Hansen  03:00You know, I expected to feel excited, or relieved, or something positive after releasing it, or the presale, at least. And I gotta tell you, like, I just feel pressure. Like, I'm really glad I didn't do this sooner.  Colleen Schnettler  03:25Really?  Michele Hansen  03:27Yeah. Because now I have, you know, at least 34 people I can't disappoint. Colleen Schnettler  03:32Right.  Michele Hansen  03:32And I feel like, just like, the pressure to make something that is a quality product, like, I already had that pressure on myself to put something out there that I'm proud of.  Colleen Schnettler  03:44Yeah. Michele Hansen  03:46Now I have all these other people who are expecting that, and not that anyone has emailed me and said anything to that effect, but that's how I feel. And I was thinking about this earlier. And I was like, man, like, writing and selling this book has like, brought out all of these, like, vulnerabilities and, and self-doubt and everything, like all of this stuff that I like, thought I had dealt with and then it's, like, sort of like bursting out of the cabinet, being like, hey, I'm still here. So it's, you know, I mean, I have tools to, like, deal with that, but it's been like, oh my gosh, like, I thought I had dealt with, like, I never feel this way about anything about Geocodio, like, so.  Colleen Schnettler  04:33So, this is interesting, because I, when I was feeling a similar way, many months ago, I don't actually know if I talked about it on the podcast, but I had a very high value client that I had a great relationship with that needed a file uploader, and mine wasn't quite done, and I had this moment of terror, panic, I don't know, where I was like, I shouldn't use mine because, because if I put it on my client's site, like, it has to work, right? There's no get out of jail free card, Kind of like, you've now sold this book. Like, you have to finish it.  Michele Hansen  05:07Right. It's not just like, throwing it in a PDF and then like.  Colleen Schnettler  05:09Yeah.  Michele Hansen  05:10Oh, whatever, nobody paid for it. Like, it's not a big deal. Like, it's like, no, this is, like, this is serious now.  Colleen Schnettler  05:17Yeah. And I think something that, that I'm thinking of as you're talking about this, I remember at the time, Alex Hillman had a really great tweet thread about you're not scared of failure, maybe you're secretly scared of success.  Michele Hansen  05:32Mm hmm.  Colleen Schnettler  05:33It was really interesting. Like, just when you think about, like, the psychology and all of these new insecurities coming to light for you, like, maybe you're scared of success.  Michele Hansen  05:42You know, and it's so I feel like we should have them on the podcast more, because I feel like they are, like, Amy and Alex in some way are like characters on this podcast, they're just not actually on the podcast. But like, the amount we talk about, you know, 30x500 and everything. She had, I think, I think it was her, or maybe, no, or maybe it was Dani Donovan, the woman who does the ADHD comics. But I think it was Amy, had a thread, like, couple months ago that was like, you know, people with, or maybe, I don't know if she has ADHD, so I don't know if this was her. Okay. Somebody had a thread that was like, you know, people with ADHD, like, you don't ever feel accomplished when you finish something. It's just over. And then you're on to the next thing. And it was like, yes, like, I expected to feel something when I finally got that out there, and now it instead feels like, oh, now I have to put in the graphics. Now I have to do the cover art. Like now I have to like, like, it just, it didn't, there was never this, like, moment of, like, feeling accomplished or anything like that. It just, it just rolled into the next thing. Colleen Schnettler  06:58Interesting. I don't, I don't have that problem. Like, that doesn't happen to me. I mean, but it's interesting, I find that interesting because one of the things, for me, is when I accomplish something, even if, I feel like if I'd been in your position and I got the presales out there, I do feel that, like, internal satisfaction of hitting that goal, and that's what keeps me motivated. So, if you don't get that same kind of dopamine hit, doesn't that make the whole process kind of painful? It doesn't sound fun.  Michele Hansen  07:28Well, what I do get that from is people, like, you know, positive reinforcement from other people. Like, so I've been asking people for testimonials to put at the front of the book. And on the one hand, that terrifies me, and, and then on the other hand, when they do come in, and people are talking about how the, the book and also sort of newsletter and like, like, all this, all this stuff is all sort of meshing together, has helped them, and what it has helped them do, and how they wish they'd had it sooner and everything. Like, that makes me feel good. That makes me feel like I am delivering the, like, a product that is worth somebody paying for, and that I can be proud of seeing how it's impacted other people. But I like I, I don't really get satisfaction out of achieving things, which is really ironic, because I think about younger versions of myself and I've like, you know, I describe me in high school as an achievement robot, like. Colleen Schnettler  08:39An achievement robot.  Michele Hansen  08:41Yeah, you know, you're, like, just taking as many AP's as you can and your life is over if you don't get in a top college. You know, that whole, that whole song and dance that turned out to be a lie, because now I work for myself. Not at all bitter about that. Anyway, um, yeah, it's but, this, so that is really, like, keeping me going or like, people tweeting out you like, hey, like, what is the book coming out? And part of me is like, oh, my God, am I gonna get them by then? But like, I've been getting a lot of really good reinforcement from people, and that, and I think that's, for me, that's been one of the really big benefits of building in public is not, not necessarily knowing that, exactly that people are going to pay for it and how much they're going to pay and having that money up front, but knowing that I'm creating something that is useful for people. Like, that is what keeps me going. Colleen Schnettler  09:31That sounds great, too.  Michele Hansen  09:33But now I got to finish the damn thing, so.  Colleen Schnettler  09:35Yeah. Now you gotta finish it.  Michele Hansen  09:37I was saying that the release date would be June 24. I actually just had to push that back to July 2, because I just, I don't think I have enough time.  Colleen Schnettler  09:44Yeah. Michele Hansen  09:45I do have an idea for the cover. Like, I want it to be like a terminal printout that's like, basically like installing, like, you know, like installing like empathy and like, loading scripts. Colleen Schnettler  10:00That'll be cute.  Michele Hansen  10:01Like, sort of corny. Developers aren't the only audience for it. But I also want them to know that this is a resource that is, like, accessible to them.  Colleen Schnettler  10:14Yeah. Michele Hansen  10:15I don't know. I have zero artistic abilities, like, I can't even, like, think visually, like, so I have so many people who are reviewing the draft right now, which is pretty amazing. Some of them are, like, super close friends of mine who are harsh editors, and I'm super grateful for that. And others are, like, people I have never even met who are so, I guess, so taken with, with the idea of the book that they're, like, helping me edit it, and I have never met them before, which is just so moving. But anyway, so someone has been giving me a lot of feedback on like, oh, like, this should be a graphic and like, this should be a graphic. And I'm like, I'm so glad you're saying that because it would have never occurred to me that that could be a graphic because I communicate in speech, and in text, and there's -  Colleen Schnettler  11:01Yeah. Michele Hansen  11:01Not a whole lot of pictures going on.  Colleen Schnettler  11:03Yeah. Michele Hansen  11:04So, so, yeah, I gotta kind of get all of, all that together in the next couple weeks. And like, hopefully release the, like, the print-on-demand version at the same time, but it's unclear. And then after that, I get to do the audio book, which, honestly, I'm really looking forward to, because then I just have to read the book out loud and as a podcaster, I'm like, I got that. Like, this does not involve any pictures. Like, I am good. Colleen Schnettler  11:32No pictures required.  Michele Hansen  11:33No art skills required. Colleen Schnettler  11:36Are you gonna hire someone to do the graphics? Have you figured that out yet?  Michele Hansen  11:39No, I've been making them in PowerPoint.  Colleen Schnettler  11:42Okay. I'm just saying there's - Michele Hansen  11:45Really simple. Like, there's not going to be like, pictures-pictures, like. Colleen Schnettler  11:47Okay. Michele Hansen  11:48If it turns out this book is a huge hit and I need to do a version that actually has pictures and like, somebody doing, like, professionally doing the layout then like, yeah, I'll, I'll do that, but.  Colleen Schnettler  11:59Yeah, so. Michele Hansen  11:59I mean, so like, more like flowcharts if anything, or like, putting something in a box so that it's, like, called out like even that kind of stuff. My brain is like, doesn't.  Colleen Schnettler  12:09Have you ever seen, there's a couple of people I've met at conferences that are developers, but they're also visual thinkers. And so they'll like, make sketch notes of someone's conference talk. Have you ever seen these? I'm going to send you some after the podcast. They're so cool. I mean, for your, for, you know, especially to hit, like, the developer audience, that would be, and that might be like version two of the book, but like, like sketch notes, or something would be super cool. Like, I could see a lot of cool opportunities here.  Michele Hansen  12:37Yeah, I tried to use something called Excalidraw, and I think my problem is like, I just don't think visually.  Colleen Schnettler  12:47Yeah. Michele Hansen  12:47Like, I never graduated beyond stick figures. My, my efforts that were beyond stick figures are hilarious. Like actually, like, yeah. Um, so I probably should, like, should bring that in, you know. But again, I mean, the book has only made, you know, just under $1,000. So I'm not, I'm not, I don't really want to, like, go out and hire an artist for a couple $1,000 for it. Like, I don't feel like that's a reasonable- Colleen Schnettler  13:21Not yet. Not yet. Right. I mean, that might be in the future. Yeah. I feel like that's not yet. I totally get that.  Michele Hansen  13:27Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's-  Colleen Schnettler  13:34It's exciting. I'm glad we gave you that push. I mean, I kind of felt like I gave you that push when I was basically like, you're gonna have this up by the time we launch this podcast, right. I'm happy. I hope it wasn't too stressful. But I'm happy you got there.  Michele Hansen  13:49I think I needed the external deadline because- Colleen Schnettler  13:52Yeah.  Michele Hansen  13:52And again, this is kind of one of those, for me, ADHD things. Like, I need an external deadline because if it's a deadline I've come up with then it's not happening. But like, the reason why the book was, is gonna be out by July 2 is because, like, our, well, it was gonna be June 23 because our daughter finishes school for the year on June 25. So I was like, it has to be out before she gets out of school. But then I remember that she has a week of summer camp. So I'm like, okay, I have another week.  Colleen Schnettler  14:16You have one more week. Michele Hansen  14:18No, it has to be done before she gets out of camp because otherwise then I, you know, I won't have as much time, so.  Colleen Schnettler  14:25Yeah. Michele Hansen  14:25External deadline. Super helpful. Yeah. How's, how's stuff in Simple File Upload world? Colleen Schnettler  14:33So, things are good. I, you know, signups have still been consistent, but because I lost that big customer, I'm just below 1k MRR. So I haven't really seen that reflected in-  Michele Hansen  14:48Is the big customer the one that, like, wasn't using it and you couldn't get in touch with them?  Colleen Schnettler  14:53No, that person's still there, but like, I lost one person that was, like, a tier below that, which is, because I have three tiers. And so things are fine. I mean, I'm not seeing a big increase, or really any movement on the revenue because of the churn at that level, at that more expensive level. But I'm pretty excited about some of the things I'm going to be trying to do in the next couple months. My summer is crazy. So I had at first resigned myself to just not really working on Simple File Upload for a couple months. I was like, I'm just gonna let it sit. It's doing great. It requires almost no customer support. But then,  Michele Hansen  15:32I mean, a thousand dollars a month, and then it recurs is like.  Colleen Schnettler  15:35Right! It's like, I mean, okay, can we talk about how awesome this is? By the way, this is awesome. Like, after fees and stuff, after I pay my hosting fees, and my storage fees and my Heroku fees, I clear like 606, 650. Like, that's like, pretty cool.  Michele Hansen  15:52Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  15:53It's like, I'm not so much. So I wasn't upset about this. But like, I just needed to see kind of where my life was and what I was doing. And I was like, I might just have to sit on this for a couple months because I don't have the time. But then I got an idea. So I am going to take, really what happened is I was really inspired talking to Sean last week about 30x500. I have never taken that course. But I read, like, everything Amy Hoy writes on the internet, and so I kind of feel like I get the idea behind Sales Safari, the idea being find where your customers hang out and find out what their problems are. Conceptually, it seems easy. I just haven't had time to do that. And him, he said last week that he spent 80 hours. Think about that. So he was trolling Reddit forums for 80 hours. That is a lot.  Michele Hansen  16:45I mean, I probably already do that, and there's no business purpose behind it. Colleen Schnettler  16:49It's just no focus to it, right? So, so that's, so I really think I'm at this inflection point where what I have is working. It's doing great. I don't need to build new, more features until I know what features people need. And as we talked about, I think two weeks ago, different audiences want different features. As a solo founder, I do, with a job, I don't have the bandwidth to build all the features for everybody. Like, I'm not trying to take on CloudFlare, right. I really want to niche down and find my people and build for my people. I can't do that until I know who my people are, and I still don't really know. So, I am going to hire someone to do some of the Sales Safari research for me since I don't have time.  Michele Hansen  17:42Oh. Colleen Schnettler  17:43Yeah. So I'm kind of pumped. And by someone I mean, my sister. She, yeah, so it's like, you talk about how, like, you love having a business with Mathias.  I would love to have a business with my sister. Like, I would love for her to be able to work for me, for this to become a real company, and, you know, for us to do this together. So she is just coming off her maternity leave. She has decided not to go back to her job. So she has only a little bit of time because she doesn't have a lot of childcare, so she has, like, one day a week that she's going to work for me doing marketing research and Sales Safari, and I was to kind of trying to teach her, like, what I think is useful. We're both kind of learning as we go, neither of us really knows we're just making it up. And we're gonna do that for the summer and kind of see where it takes us.  Michele Hansen  17:55Yeah. Wow, wait, so what is her background in?  Colleen Schnettler  18:35She's an environmental consultant. Michele Hansen  18:37Oh. Colleen Schnettler  18:40So she actually, it's in no way relevant. But she's, so really the deal is she's a writer. So in her job as a consultant, what they do is they, they have to write these, like, epic report. So her background is really in writing. So originally, she was gonna write content for me, and she wrote me a couple pieces, but it's really hard to come in, since she doesn't have the technical background, it's, I, and my, my audience is developers, like, I need really technical content. So I don't think she's going to fit as a technical writer. But she's going to do, she's taking a class in SEO. So she's going to do, like, keyword research, and she's going to jump into the forums and Reddit and try and like, find out what people's pain points are surrounding file uploads. Michele Hansen  19:24You know, it sounds like you guys have a good working relationship together. Colleen Schnettler  19:31Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, all problems, this stuff that I was thinking about. All problems are people problems, right? So, if you want to control your business, and I'm just hypothesizing here, the number one most important people, but the number one most important thing is the people you work with, and I can't think of anyone else I'd rather work with. So, I think she'll figure it out, or she'll hate it and if she hates it, then she won't do it anymore. I'll find someone else. But that's kind of our plan. I'm pretty excited.  Michele Hansen  20:02Like, yeah, you, if you have someone that you work well with, and you believe that they're capable of learning what you would need them to learn, then, you know, like, you trust them.  Colleen Schnettler  20:17Yes. Michele Hansen  20:17And that matters.  Colleen Schnettler  20:18Yes. Yes. So yeah. So this summer, for me, is really for, for Simple File Upload, I think, is really going to be a focus on figuring out what niche to serve. I was talking to another friend, and he just got a new job, and he works for a big event management company. And he pointed out, you know, he was, he actually mentioned you, because he listened to the podcast, and he was like, these huge companies, they don't care about the little guys who are making a million dollars a year. And his point was, they don't care. So he's like, if you can carve out a niche in one of these huge industries, like, you can be incredibly successful, and like, these big guys, they don't care.  Michele Hansen  20:58No. And you know, on your sister, it might be really interesting to have her do interviews with people because she will be completely coming in with a beginner's mindset. Like, I find this is something that is difficult for people to adjust to like, like, we've talked about when, when someone says like, oh, like, could I do this? And you start thinking through, like, whether they could and how you would implement it, or you know-  Colleen Schnettler  21:23Right.  Michele Hansen  21:24Talk about what they wanted to do, and you just like, oh, of course, you wanted to do this because of this, and like, you don't even question it. But she, but she would be like, well, why do you want to upload a file in the first place? Like, Colleen Schnettler  21:33Right.  Michele Hansen  21:33Well, how is that, how does that work? Because she's genuinely beginner. Like, I feel like, in some ways, the fact that I don't have a geography background has been an advantage for- Colleen Schnettler  21:45Yeah. Michele Hansen  21:46You know, for this because like, I don't come in, you know, with it, with all of these preconceived notions about why someone would want to do this.  Colleen Schnettler  21:56Yeah. Michele Hansen  21:56So I think that can be really interesting when she gets her feet wet, and kind of a sense of what's going on, to try to talk to the customers.  Colleen Schnettler  22:05I think that's a great idea. I hope we can grow into that. I definitely think there's opportunity there. I think of her as like you, and I'm like Mathias in the power couple building of a company. So we'll see. I mean, she wants to get into mark, we kind of are going down this route, because I don't have enough time. I want to do it, I need to do it, and she wants to, really she wants to transition into a remote career that's flexible, like most parents, and she's really interested in SEO and marketing. So, I think it's gonna be a fun little adventure. I'm excited to see what she finds out. Part of this was also, I think we've talked a lot about, I have an interest in no-code. So I had a call with the Jetboost IO founder, Chris. Michele Hansen  22:51Yeah, Chris. Colleen Schnettler  22:52Who, I believe, you know, as well, because you're a mentor and he- Michele Hansen  22:55Yeah, I mentor him through Earnest Capital. I literally just had a call with him the other day. Colleen Schnettler  23:02So I had a call with him, independent of your call with him.  Michele Hansen  23:06Which we didn't know about. Colleen Schnettler  23:07Which we did not plan, to talk about opportunities in the webflow space. And, so I think one of the first things I'm going to have my sister, well, not the first, but one of the things my sister is going to try and do this month is really see if there's a need in Webflow. The thing about Webflow is, in 2018, Webflow introduced their own file uploader. So before that, there was a huge need for it. Now, they have their own file uploader. So it might be that what I provide is no longer, you know, something people need or want. So before I go and build an integration with Webflow, I'm going to have her do some Sales Safari research. They have really active forums to kind of see what people are looking forward to see if there's opportunity there.  Michele Hansen  23:54Yeah, Chris was telling me that they have a, like, feature upload, like a feature up vote thing where people go in and request features.  It's exciting. Colleen Schnettler  24:03Yeah, I think it's gonna be great. I think, I think it'll be fun. It'll be good to have someone actually dedicated to reading Reddit and Webflow forums and Heroku forums and whatever, to try to identify, you know, the need there and in the file uploading space. And then with the SEO research, you know, I can then either write the content myself or hire someone to write technical content, depending on my time commitments, my time, you know, what I can do, so. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I think, you know, the interesting thing about file uploading and Webflow is they have a maximum size of 10 megs, and I, you can't do multiple file uploads at the same time. So the question is, how many people really care? Like, who really, did, are there enough people that are uploading large files, or want to do maximum, or, I'm sorry, want to do multiple file uploads at a time that it would be worth it for me to make an integration into that space. So, so, you know, she's going to kind of dive into that and see what we can find out and like, this is just gonna be a fun marketing learning time because I built this thing because I wanted to build something, as you know, and I'm really happy that I built something to scratch my own need because it's worked out really well. But I still haven't really honed in on who I can serve best, and there's lots of opportunities out there, so. Michele Hansen  25:42There's a lot to be, I think, sort of learned and discovered here, and, and also that SEO work you can do, that, like, that can also inform the kind of feature development that you do, too, like, because there, I mean, this just happened to us the other day, like there was something that I noticed we had a couple of customers ask us how to do, and so I wrote up an article about how to do it, and then, but like, to basically do it manually. And then I just saw this morning that it's, like, our top performing growing piece of content and has like a 400% increase in clicks, and-  Wow. And looking into like, oh, how might we add that? And it's like, okay, maybe we should like there's, you know, SEO isn't just for bringing in customers, but also for figuring out what, what people might want as well.  Colleen Schnettler  26:38Yeah, and you've said before, I think that SEO is your number one channel? Activation channel? Michele Hansen  26:44Yeah. We, we don't run paid ads. We don't do any outbound sales. Like, we occasionally sponsor conferences, but that's mostly because, like, our friends run them, and it's just like, kind of-  Colleen Schnettler  27:00Yeah. Michele Hansen  27:00To support our friends, like we're a sponsor of Longhorn PHP, the Texas PHP conference. But like, that's just because our friend runs it.  Colleen Schnettler  27:12Okay.  Michele Hansen  27:13It's not very, like, organized or intentional. It's just like, sure, like, we'll help you out.  Colleen Schnettler  27:18Now, when you do SEO, do you do, like, now you just said, like, you were talking to a customer and then you got this idea of a good page, but do you do traditional keyword research as well? Michele Hansen  27:34Maybe? Like, we use Ahrefs.  Colleen Schnettler  27:36Yeah, I don't, okay. Michele Hansen  27:39I don't know, I still don't know how to pronounce the name of that company.  Colleen Schnettler  27:42I know, yeah, I don't either.  Michele Hansen  27:43But yeah, Ahrefs, we use that. We used Google Search Console for a long time, which is honestly a really good tool, and it's free, because Ahrefs is, is pretty expensive. But yeah, you can do keyword research and rankings and referrers and all that kind of stuff. I don't keep a super close eye on it. Um, but yeah, whenever we're, you know, we, every so often, like every couple weeks or so we go in and look at what content is performing and what else we might need and whatnot. Colleen Schnettler  28:19Cool. Yeah, I don't know. I really haven't done, I've done absolutely zero keyword research. So I think it's probably worth our time to put a little bit of effort into that to see what people are searching for to get a better idea of how to use those tools. Michele Hansen  28:36Yeah, I mean, our approach is, you know, find those keywords and then write stuff that people might be searching for and show them how to do it with Geocodio, and I think I like that because I, and I think we talked about this is kind of something that I have struggled with with the book, is, like, I struggle with sounding salesy, like and writing, like conversion copy, like, it's just really something that I feel like I sound way too infomercial-y when I tried to write it. Like, you know, there are people who are really good at writing conversion copy and sounding like a natural human being when they write it, like, I mean, you know, Amy Hoy is one of those people. But I, you know, I might as well you know, be like, hocking something on the Home Shopping Network when I try to write it. So, so like writing be like, oh, you're searching for geocoding? Hello, we do geocoding. Here is how you can do it in like, like, all of these different ways you can do it and rephrasing all of those different things. And then here's where you can try it. And then here's where you can do it. And it's very, like, straightforward. That's like, maybe you need it. Maybe you don't. All of those options are fine. Not, like, buy this now or you will die. Colleen Schnettler  29:56Yeah, I'm hoping with our keyword research and kind of, like, since I haven't done this at all, you know, with what, the marketing research she does, as you've talked about, I think a lot of that is going to inform my content and building out future landing pages. So, that's really going to be a focus for me is like, trying to get content and you know, pages out there that appeal to people. Michele Hansen  30:24Well, I'm going to be spending the next week working on the book and you're going to be onboarding your sister and getting this research going. Sounds like we got our work cut out for us.  Colleen Schnettler  30:34It's gonna be a good week.  Michele Hansen  30:37All right. Well, I guess that'll wrap us up for now. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

 Episode 22: Networking Landed Me 6 Amazing Job Offers in 4 YearsSPEAKERSMisha, Lindsay Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustain and this is the career design podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death. And we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends, and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do.Lindsay00:42Today, I am so excited for this episode of the career design podcast of how networking landed me six amazing job offers in four years. And I want to introduce you to Misha Linn. Now, Misha is actually a member of my coaching team. And she's been with me nearly since the beginning for nearly four years. And in that time, she's also one of my best students in intentional career design and really using networking to create opportunities. I mean, six job offers. Now three of those are internal to roles  but doing that in four years. That's absolutely crazy. And it's how you change the game. And I want to talk a little bit about what happens in networking and around the mindset. So we should tell us a little bit about yourself and really the mindset around networking. Misha  01:27Yeah, um, so as Lindsay mentioned, I've been with her for years now. So I am also a technical recruiter at one of these really big companies, I'm sure you all know it. And I've been recruiting for almost six years at this point. Um, and then when I am networking, I think one of my best things is, at work, I tried to present my own brand of just being a positive person and a real person like that. Not everything is always sunshine and roses. But I still tried to bring a that good attitude to work and I have had co-workers refer me into roles throughout my life, my career, especially since working within the talent paradigm with Lindsay, just really building those connections and getting in. Lindsay  02:18So one thing that's amazing about Misha, is that Misha came to me from a referral. And Misha has I mean, her work quality is so, so amazing that even though she wasn't I think you had about two years of experience, basically, when you came to me and joined my team, that her positioning and the way that she was able to bring her skills into the business, the quality of her work product really impacted her reputation and her brand. And she got tapped on the shoulder for a lot of different opportunities. So talk to me about getting approached for different opportunities, whether it's from me or other people, how have you been able to lean into that? Misha  02:55Yeah, um, I think the number one thing that it's hard to mention it, um, but letting people know when you are starting to put some feelers out there. Because especially with people that you trust, because they're the ones that are going to be able to start to poke around for you a little bit, and then also speak to you. So no one knows if you're too present you if you're not open about it, but then also having connections that bring your name up in rooms that you're not in is really interesting. And that's actually from the role that I was working in that when I met Lindsay. I was a referral in there. And that was somebody that I had worked with for about a year and a half. And then the next role I took with Lindsay was that same person actually referred me in. But I had been telling her all about Lindsay and how I've been like following Lindsay on LinkedIn for two years. And I was always liking her posts. And she was like, Hey, I think I'm meeting that person that you always are talking about. I was like, oh, I'm like fangirling over here. But have you like that amazing connection. Um, and then from there, I met another connection at that job that I was working. And I have really been wanting to move. I've been in the scientific world. And I really wanted to move into the tech world. And I was very open about that. And I had a co-worker then refer me to a tech position and start to really build out my connections there. And then Lindsay actually referred me into a startup that was a great like foothold into the corporate space and then another recruiter for admission to my current role. So it's just been a lot of referrals like I definitely have applied after the referrals, but I haven't had to do a full cold opening in four years since especially with you Lindsay Lindsay  04:48So this is amazing because one of the things I think that you that we're talking about, that doesn't happen well intentional career design. So one thing about Misha is her belief in what she could do and the attitude that she brings to the table was one of the first things. But the other part was that she looked at every person that she encountered professionally as an opportunity to network. And so a lot of your best advocates are already existing, and they're people you're talking to already, but I like the idea of being open to that. So how do you start with those conversations? What are some best practices? Misha  05:20Um, I think still trying to be very positive about things, especially since you don't know how long it's going to be until you're able to make a move. Um, but then also like, letting them know what you're used to your long-term goals are, like, I'm really passionate about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that also has people knowing that I can be somebody that they definitely want to represent. And not being that like not being negative, like really, so being like, knowing you're going to be in that role. And then, knowing that I can do it, I think, especially moving from science to tech was a big one, just like saying that you don't, I'm doing all this research. Um, and this is what is gonna make me an asset here. And then I actually started I still internally within my company, but I started a new role today, actually. And that one was through internal networking, I was on a team. That was great, but it was non-tech. So it wasn't necessarily like in my wheelhouse as much. And I really, really wanted to move back into this tech space. And I have been talking to one of my co-workers, and he actually heard about an opportunity from one of my co-workers from a different team, and let them know, like, hey, Misha is open, and she actually pings me right away. And then within five minutes, I was talking to her manager. And within I think two weeks, I was getting a new internal offer. So I'm really making it intentional that you are open, but also like still being positive and knowing that it might not happen right away. But building that solid foundation and relationships are always going to get you further. Um, then you know, some of those cold reach outs and things like that. Lindsay  07:16I love this. And I think this is one way when people are talking about networking, like start with your warm network first. So I'm going to recap those. So first thing, I don't want to be deliberately negative on this one, no being negative. So always be positive would be the opposite of that. Own your genius own what it is that you're good at and be willing to speak your truth. And the last thing is to share what you're passionate about. So if you understand what you want to do what you're good at. And if you're positive about that you're looking for the next opportunity. That's not a way of disparaging anything that you're happening existing, but that you're ready to think about what's next. It's a great way for you to set a course into your next career role. Exactly. Fantastic. Well, Musa, thank you so much for joining me today. How can people connect with you if they want to learn more about you? Misha  08:00Um, LinkedIn is a great place, I will say I do work at a very large company. So I have tons and tons of connections. But if you specifically call out on talent paradigm or this podcast, I'll definitely make sure to peek at your message, rather than, again, a lot of those cold networking messages I get.  Lindsay  08:20And here's your hint, guys, this is a normal form and networking opportunity. So take it. And thank you so much, Nisha, I appreciate you and thank you for four years, and also it's Lisa's birthday this week. So we're gonna say congratulations on your new opportunity. Your birthday and I think you got a new job. Do you get a new car and a new house?  Misha  08:38Yes,  Lindsay  08:39Yeah, life is winning for you. So intention unlocks everything that you could ever want. Start being thoughtful about what you want and know that you can achieve anything. Thanks for joining me today.

https://vimeo.com/542368604 Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcast for talent acquisition and talent management. Listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We're glad you're here. Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:18Hi, I'm Chris Hoyt, President of CareerXroads, and your fitness instructor for the next 10 minutes as we chat with one of my favorite personalities in the talent industry, Linda Brenner, the co-founder and managing partner of Talent Growth Advisors. Now, this is a rapid fire segment aimed at giving you just a nugget or two of someone else's experience. And the lessons that they've sort of learned along the way now we pick the focus of these topics in advance, and through our 2021 priority survey that anyone can participate in. Already hundreds of Tella leaders have chimed in on the topics of diversity, ethics, change, management, internal mobility, and more. So if you haven't already, drop your thoughts in as well by finding the 2021 priority survey within the research and report section of CXR.works but do quickly. We're actually going to close that out this month and publish the results. So if you're here with us live in the studio audience, you can drop a question for today's guests in the chat section. And if we've got time, we'll try to answer it for you. If you run out of time, you can always add it to our open and public exchange found@cxr.works/talenttalks now, feel like I've already burned through the first five minutes of our chat. Let's get right to it. Linda, how are you? Linda Brenner, Talent Growth Advisors 1:25I'm great. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited for our rapid fire session. Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:30You ready to fire away? Linda Brenner, Talent Growth Advisors 1:32I am. Yes. Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:33Look for those who are not lucky enough yet to know you, Linda, let's get a little background like who is Linda Brenner? What do you do? Linda Brenner, Talent Growth Advisors 1:41So I lead Talent Growth Advisors. We're a management consulting firm that blends finance and talent expertise to help our clients improve the speed and quality of hiring. So I've been doing this business for 17 years before that I worked for Gap and Pepsi and Home Depot in different operations, talent acquisition, talent management roles. Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:04You've been doing this a while Linda Brenner, Talent Growth Advisors 2:06I have been doing this a while I am what you'd call grizzled, cynical, bitter, maybe angry. Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:12Maybe a little, a little, just a little peppering of anger, Linda Brenner, Talent Growth Advisors 2:14Maybe a little of both. Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:18So what that tells me is, you've learned a few things along the way. Yes. So we chatted a little while about how you don't need every single role. Right to to necessarily be vital. Like, is there? Is there? Is there something in there? Like what would you say that not all roles are critical? What exactly do you mean? Linda Brenner, Talent Growth Advisors 2:37Well, I would say that the old paradigm of running HR, where we throw everything we've got at all the senior roles, we send the jobs to search and spend, spend $200,000, we give them mentors and MBAs and all that. And then we spread our resources more thinly as we get to middle management, and then the bottom, we just whatever's left, we just spread it like peanut butter and call it a day that I would argue never worked. Although I certainly thought I was doing a good job back in the day using that kind of framework. But what we help our clients do is connect the roles that are essential to building business value, which in almost every industry is intellectual capital. So if you're Merck, its research and development. If your Home Depot, it might be merchants, if you're Raytheon, it's your missile engineers. If you can't get hiring and retaining those jobs, right, and kill it,

John 2:13-25 13The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.” 17His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”18So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

So how is your 2021 going so far?Global pandemic, check.Massive ice storm that paralyzes the state of Texas, check.Kids missing more school, check.These are the facts. But I’m not discouraged about this, and let me tell you why you shouldn’t be, either. The facts don’t have the final say.I want to read you something that Paul said in the book of Romans."Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised." - Romans 4:18So, God had promised Abraham a son. That’s a fact. But here’s another fact. Abraham’s body was as good as dead and his wife’s womb looked more like a tomb. But it says that Abraham faced those facts, but didn’t waver in unbelief. Why? Because he knew that the facts never have the final say when it coms to God.The natural thing to do is to look around at our circumstances and say “Woe is me.” But you and I serve a supernatural God. Let’s think for a minute about God’s track record.He created a universe out of nothing, a man out of mud, and a woman out of a rib. He led his people through the Red Sea and into the Promised Land. In the New Testament Jesus walked on water, calmed a sea, gave sight to blind, healed countless of people, cast out demons, and raised the dead. And this same God knows how many hairs on your head, how many times your heart will beat, and how long your circumstances will last. He can change everything in an instant and he is always working on your behalf.Romans 4:19 says “Abraham faced the facts.” So let’s face them.A global pandemic. An arctic freeze. An uncertain future. Those are the facts. But the facts never have the final say. Not when we remember that God works everything for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

Find us: Head to our community page to register & join the MindfulCommerce community as an expert, brand or merchantInstagram: @mindfulcommerceFacebook @MindfulCommerceContact Us - info@mindfulcommerce.ioWhere to find MoreTrees:MoreTrees - WebsiteMoreTrees - TwitterMoreTrees - InstagramMoreTrees - FacebookLinks Mentioned in Episode:ShopifyWooCommerceExpandlyZapierIFTTT (If This Then That)Wilkinson SwordMy Green ChristmasZoomShownotes:Krissie Leyland  0:00 Hello, and welcome to the mindful commerce podcast, a place where we talk to ecommerce brands, service providers and developers who care about protecting our planet. I'm KrissieRich Bunker  0:11& I'm Rich, and we're your hosts. This podcast is an extension of the MindfulCommerce community.Krissie Leyland  0:18The MindfulCommerce community is a safe place for ecommerce brands and experts to connect, collaborate and explore opportunities to work together to unleash the power of ecommerce as a force for good.Rich Bunker  0:30You can join by going to mindfulcommerce.io and clicking on 'Community'. See you there!Krissie Leyland  0:36Today, we're talking to Niki and Alan from MoreTrees. You probably know that carbon dioxide is one of the biggest drivers of climate change and we know we should be playing our part in reducing and negating carbon emissions. So MoreTrees are a tree planting app. MoreTrees not only helps offsets your emissions, but it comes with tons of other benefits too. Every tree planted helps the planet & it reduces extreme poverty and combat deforestation. We're going to be talking about what inspired Niki and Alan to start MoreTrees, how that makes it super easy to offset your carbon for e commerce businesses of all sizes, but also we want to know exactly how offsetting with MoreTrees can help with those four benefits I just mentioned. So, hello to both! How are you?Niki Tibble  1:33We're good, thank you. How are you?Alan Wilson  1:35Great, thank you.Krissie Leyland  1:38Could you start by introducing yourselves and tell us a little bit more about MoreTrees?Niki Tibble  1:44Yep, definitely! I'll let Alan go first.Alan Wilson  1:57Okay, so background-wise, I'm a "techie"... so about boatloads of software and startups for years. My last startup was called Expandly, and that's an ecommerce platform used by "one man bands" up to global companies like Wilkinson Sword. So it's a multi channel ecommerce system and so that's where my background is: building tech for  ecommerce and other industries.Niki Tibble  2:30Yes, and I am Niki. My background is copywriting. I have a copywriting business, writing for all sorts of different sectors. I think the most obscure thing I've written about was calculating your construction overheads. But predominantly, I work with ecommerce platforms, tech, and sellers with their content. So that's my background and I've worked with Alan, on previous projects before. Alan came up with the initial idea.Alan Wilson  3:03So originally, I went to a meeting and they were planting trees for every person that attended the meeting. So I thought "That's just a great idea! There's actually companies that plant trees and it's good for the environment." For a meeting, just think of the people that come there for traffic and stuff... I thought actually, that could be a good thing in the future! So then, I told Niki, "I'll get this fantastic idea and get this button in every meeting room around the world. People just come in, press a button, then it all connects to my API, they plant a tree, and it's all gonna be great! And then Nikki said that it's a crap idea.Niki Tibble  3:47I did, I'm not going to lie. I thought all I could envision was this big red X Factor style button, where people are just hitting it in meeting rooms... horror stories of disgruntled employees, hitting it 1000s of times. Which you know, would be fantastic for the planet but then these businesses are planting millions of trees unknowingly. But I really, really liked Alan's thinking behind it and I knew as a business owner that I wanted to do more to help the planet. You see things on Netflix, you read the papers, you see in the news all about climate change and you want to do more. But actually knowing what to do, having the time to do it, understanding the different parts was just difficult for a business owner. You know Krissie, it's a hot topic in ecommerce–people are talking about what you can do all the time, but actually, the options aren't always that obvious. So we definitely felt that there was a gap in the market for a tech lead solution to just make it easy for businesses to plant trees and to do something positive for the planet without it costing a lot of money & without it taking up time. But also to open it up so that ecommerce in particular, involve the customer so that when you plant a tree for them, they're actually being told about that tree. Then they get an email telling them about it so that there's no concern that someone saying they're doing something they're not actually doing.Krissie Leyland  5:18Yeah, that's really nice. Something you said there made me think... There are lots of different offsetting apps out there now. So when you first had your initial idea was that not the case?Alan Wilson  5:35I think that some apps out there offset but I think overall–there's some neat apps as well, there's some really neat carbon calculation apps–but I think it's still a very early fragmented marketplace that is very confusing for a lot of companies and organizations. Wales, within the very small industry as at the moment, is starting to see more of them emerging. I think it's actually quite a very, very early marketplace currently.Niki Tibble  6:07The amount of people we speak to say,"Oh I didn't realize something like that existed." So I mean, there are fantastic apps and ways to do it out there but a lot of people don't actually realize that they are out there, which is a problem.Krissie Leyland  6:21I agree. Maybe it's because we're involved in it, and so it can pop up. But the thing that I noticed about MoreTrees was like, you work with different projects. So it's obvious where your money is going, if you offset with more trees. But do you want to talk a bit more about the projects that you work with?Niki Tibble  6:47To us, it was important that we work with the right tree planting partners. So unfortunately, it's not me and Alan putting on our wellies and grabbing our spades and going and digging in the garden... our garden's not that big. It was important to us that the people that we were partnering with would be the people that our customers would want to partner with. It also meant that, planting trees and offsetting carbonare the primary focu. But actually, there's a lot more that these projects can do to extend the benefits so we make sure that anyone that we're working with on the projects are actually planting trees that are going to be making a difference. They're helping with reforestation, or they're providing agroforestry trees to provide food and sources of income, but also that they're benefiting the local communities. A lot of our projects are in impoverished areas where actually the trees are providing an income, they're teaching these people a skill that they can use, and they're protecting the local area. For example, some of the projects they've got problems with flooding, they're planting the right trees to deal with that. Areas that have suffered deforestation need reforestation to give wildlife places to come back to. So for us, it was a lot more about just picking projects that weren't "just trees": It was actually making a wider impact. It's trees and more.Krissie Leyland  8:17Nice. Perfect. It's really interesting to think that planting a tree can help combat poverty. How exactly does it? What are the links? Someone clicks on "offset with more trees" and then what happens?Niki Tibble  8:40Yes. You click & you buy your trees. Then at the end of each month, we we pull them all together, and we tell our different partners and projects how many trees. When you go into the platform, it defaults to the most needed tree and the most needed project, but you can also pick a specific project and tree type. So at the end of the month, we collect those together & instruct our tree planting partners. They work with local villagers, educate them and provide them with the tools, the equipment & the knowledge to plant these trees. They also fund forest guards to actually protect the areas and they're there for a while so it's not just a quick plant and run. They're helping them grow these forests and and they don't leave them until they're in the position to want to be able to carry that on themselves. You read the stories & get the feedback from the fields and it makes you feel lucky inside knowing that you're doing so much with just a seed, effectively. Krissie Leyland  9:43I love that. It's so nice.Rich Bunker  9:45It's so much more than planting trees than you can imagine, to be honest which is great... lovely projects at work. What stands out is your favorite project.Alan Wilson  9:57I like Madagascar because of the film... Nikki, you have a favorite, don't you? I think I actually like them all. There is Madagascar and stuff but the ones that do more than the poverty alleviation as well as environment, really strike a chord with me as much. You can buy offsets and as you'll know, those just prevent people from cutting down trees and stuff. They're just not as good as planting a tree and given the income to the farmers as well.Krissie Leyland  10:42So something that just has more meaning behind it than just planting a tree.Alan Wilson  10:47More meaning and also as I say, the offsets that you can juust pay someone not to cut down a tree can be a verified project... it's great that the trees not being cut down, but it's actually developing more the whole concept. The ethos is getting the more trees out there and actually creating more of these great carbon capture species out there.Rich Bunker  11:13Yeah, there's funds out there that support people not knocking down trees and educate them of why it's a good idea not just to cut trees down, as you see fit, willy nilly, yeah. Alan Wilson  11:28Yes, it's great. Exactly but also, I do believe more in getting more trees planted. But anything that helps us is the way forward.Rich Bunker  11:38Amazing. So how does it work? What's the app? How does does the money get sent to the project and what's the tech involved in in the background? Alan Wilson  11:51We've built a platform. So it's not like a sort of front end website or a Shopify store, it's a whole entire platform. We've got a whole process: when we add projects, we add them in our back end, system adds it to the platform and then as a user, you come onto the platform. You can either just quite quickly plant a tree within minutes. If you haven't got any credits in your account, you can pay straight away for that tree–that's one pound a tree–or you can preload credits. You can preload, say 100, and then you can plan them all automatically as well. You can either plan for yourself or other people. If you buy a plan for your customers, you can see right away the plan. You put the name, email, and quantity and then that emails will send the user the certificate. So you can either do that, just manually typing them or you can upload them via CSV or via the API, which we have.Krissie Leyland  12:52So for MindfulCommerce–obviously, we already use MoreTrees, but I'm doing it manually at the moment–eventually, we're going to connect it with our payment system.Rich Bunker  13:10Yeah, the automation takes the decision out of it. It's done.Krissie Leyland  13:14No manual work. So easy.Niki Tibble  13:19There's no reason to not plant trees, because it's just done for you. So why wouldn't you do it?Alan Wilson  13:28We used to have an API and we have some larger companies already using the API and doing it that way. So that takes a bit of development. We're also developing an app for the app store's at the moment. So we have multiple of them in the pipeline, which won't be that long. We also use a great tool called Zapier and Zapier is fantastic. It's an easy integration tool that connects straight to Shopify, eBay and Zoom as well. So basically you can connect your Shopify store and connect your MoreTree account in minutes. You could prefund your MoreTrees account and then for every order plant a tree or you can see for every order over 50 pounds plant a tree. The scope of it is huge so literally, for every street payment, make a "plant a tree for every invoice" and it just goes on. We have customers who are setting themselves up in minutes. It's incredible. Currently, I get an email every time someone plants. So I wake up in the morning and see all these people planting through the night. They haven't actually planted obviously, it's just the automation of their systems where the process are coming through. So we just got it made quite easy and that Zapier is really, really useful.Krissie Leyland  14:51Definitely. I love Zapier.Alan Wilson  14:55Nikki, you have one don't you? We have them for people doing mortgage companies and stuff. Do you have a good example of that?Niki Tibble  15:04Yeah, we've got this great company and they've just love it. I messaged them the other day and just said, "Oh, how are you getting on? How are you finding it?" And he was like, "We absolutely love it! We've drawn a massive tree in our office (I presume it's on a whiteboard wall) and every time we plant a tree, we go up and write it on it. It's like attending this massive competition in the office. We love it, we just can visually see all these trees. Everyone's running up and writing that they've planted another one." I think it's fantastic.Krissie Leyland  15:40What was that? It's if somebody signs up to a mortgage deal, then?Alan Wilson  15:45That's what they do. So automatically in their system, someone signs up for a mortgage deal and it automatically plant them a tree. Then the customer gets the emails with the certificate that the tree has been planted as well. It sounds like from what Nikki says, that their senior sales team also flags it on a whiteboard as well.Krissie Leyland  16:09I think they can just look at it every day and be like, "look what we've done!" I love it because–obviously me and Niki work together in other means–I received an invoice from Niki and was like "Ooh! I feel good about paying this invoice and planting!"Niki Tibble  16:27Every time anyone pays an invoice there, I plant my little tree. It's just little things and it's so much fun because everyone's thinking of different ways that they can plant trees. It's almost become a bit of a competition where people are like "what innovative way can I think that someone planted trees?" Pop quiz winners the other week, for example. There will be different things people come up with, it's like, wow.Alan Wilson  16:49I planted 11 trees when Scotland beat England that weekend.Niki Tibble  16:52Alan set a Zapier to plant a tree every time it rains, didn't you? And I said, I said good that you're not still in Scotland.Krissie Leyland  17:09So what are some of the kind of businesses that you've worked with so far?Niki Tibble  17:18With our backgrounds, we have built the platform with ecommerce in mind. So we have lots of online sellers who are either selling by their Shopify, WooCommerce, or any other platform. We've got a lot the typical businesses that we expected when we first set up MoreTrees. I might speak for myself Alan, but I've been amazed at the variety of people that are using it. We've got window cleaners, personal trainers. accounts and what else?Alan Wilson  17:52Clothing brands. Ecommerce brands in sustainable clothing. There seems to be so much of them coming up, which is great.Niki Tibble  18:01Yeah. People building the fancy garden shed. All sorts. It's just been amazing that so many different people want to get involved for so many different reasons.Krissie Leyland  18:13Fancy garden sheds? (laughter)Rich Bunker  18:23What will it become when people go back to working in offices? Hmm...Alan Wilson  18:32I think one of my first case study business was a company called My Green Christmas. They do Christmas cards and stuff. We didn't know them at all and it was really good. All of a sudden, they were integrated and then we saw these trees going out for every order over 30 pounds. So they effectively help drive their sales so that people pay not that much, but they're really good company and good people. So that was a really good daily sort of case study.Krissie Leyland  19:09Yeah. And a big boost I guess during Christmas.Alan Wilson  19:13Exactly. They're a young team as well, and they've done fantastically well.Krissie Leyland  19:19And I bet Niki, that you're writing case studies.Niki Tibble  19:22Yes, which is nice because there's so much to talk about. People want to get involved. You know, people really love using it, and they want to talk about it. They want to share that they're doing it, which is lovely. And then you really do see this viral effect, where you know, we've had a customer who's come to us saying, "Oh, one of your existing customers planted my friend a tree, and they told me about it when we went for coffee, and now I'm planting a tree." So there's an really nice knock-on effect and also then businesses and ecommerce sellers have this amazing platform to encourage their audience to live a more sustainable life. I was speaking to someone on Friday, and their setup setup was a bit a bit complicated. The people they were sending the tree confirmation email to wasn't actually the personnel planting the tree for. So we were batting things backwards or forwards about how they could do it. I said to them all, "Possibly, we could see if we could set it up so that when you planted a tree for someone, they didn't get the email from us saying that they planted the tree." And this person said, "No. I want to tell my customers and show them how easy it is to plant a tree. I want to send them your way, because I want them to find their own trees." I think it's so great that we've got so many brands that actually want to plant trees themselves and they actually want to encourage other people to get on board and do it as well, so that we can all make a bigger impact. Yeah, that's been really nice as well.Krissie Leyland  20:58A network of tree planters. A community.Alan Wilson  21:04I think it's a network of good people as well. That's been the best part about MoreTrees. We meet so many good, good people, instead of a lot of the harsh realities of what's going on in the world. It's a lot of good people.Krissie Leyland  21:19Yeah, it must be really refreshing. We find that, don't we?Rich Bunker  21:24A lot of really positive people recently.Krissie Leyland  21:28Positive and inspiring, just like you two.Niki Tibble  21:33That's the great thing about MindfulCommerce: you have a community of people who are doing something pretty much off their own back, because you know, at the end of the day, currently people don't have to do anything. But there's always people that want to do something for the better good.Rich Bunker  21:50I guess there's a social shift for people as well. David Attenborough has been a champion of bringing that to people, especially in the UK's forefront, and wider globally. So hopefully, that is a social shiftand a movement that will stay. People will look after their environment a bit more.Krissie Leyland  22:15What a legend. Quick, get him on the podcast.Niki Tibble  22:21During a Zoom quiz yesterday, I found out that he's the reason that tennis balls are bright yellow? Something about making them visible on TV. It was either true or false: David Attenborough is the reason those tennis balls are bright, luminous orange or yellow. He is just wonderful in all different ways.Krissie Leyland  22:50Every time I see a tennis ball...Rich Bunker  22:55Touching on the integrations, you mentioned Zoom, Shopify, WooCommerce... What are the other integrations you've got and is there anything coming up in the pipeline?Alan Wilson  23:07The Zoom one. I mean, that's that's a really neat one where people say "for every person who joins the zoom–every attendee for the meeting–will automatically plant a tree." We're finding that more and more popular.Niki Tibble  23:19That's the original idea, Alan, your original meeting idea... (laughter)Alan Wilson  23:22Exactly. Just virtually, it saves me from having to visit every office in the UK. So I realized my mistake, now Niki. But yeah, this week we've got a new subscription and "auto top up" will be liv. By the end of the month, we will have WooCommerce up live. Shopify and other carts that we're working on will very quickly follow after but, we're going to launch on one foss, which is WooCommerce. Then we have If This Then That (IFTTT) which is another sort of Zapier type API platform, which is great, which we're working on. I mean, ultimately, being a techie, I love that part of it: just making it easy. I love integration and all the amazing ideas you can do with it. So eventually, "every Uber ride, plant a tree", and "everything you spend on your card, plant a tree", etc. They're coming very soon.Rich Bunker  23:23Integrating some of the challenging bank tasks. "Deal with your savings, you can plant a tree". There you go.Alan Wilson  24:40We need to give you a commission now, for that idea.Rich Bunker  24:44It's helping more people.Alan Wilson  24:46Exactly, no, it's a good idea.Rich Bunker  24:52Is it just you Alan, tapping on your keyboard, coding away or have you got a teamAlan Wilson  24:59My last app, I built the whole platform initially, and then had raised a couple of million pounds, built a big team and done it that way. So this time, I built an MVP myself to learn how it works–so all the lessons from last time–but then I've got a development team that I use, and I've known for 10 years. I basically paid them to build it. I just architected, designed and worked out how it would work. They've been fantastic. They do the development, Nikki tests it, and then makes it live.Rich Bunker  25:40The collective mind is always more efficient.Alan Wilson  25:43I mean, the development-wise, it's hard to build a business and develop. That's what I learned from the past. You spend so much time. There's so many talented developers out there. If you can just harness them the right way, then it gets easier. I think what you mentioned about a lot of products out there, competitors are just front end shops and stuff and some of them are even just Shopify stores. So, what we actually have is a platform that is scalable, and can plant hundreds of 1000s of trees a second. Not right now, but we've got the technology there to scale it so that it can plant massive amounts of trees and grow in scale... to large enterprise customers.Krissie Leyland  26:33I had one question for Niki, actually. It is probably going back a little bit about the project: Are you looking for more local projects? At the moment I see Madagascar, and other areas, but as we're in the UK... I just wondered.Niki Tibble  26:54Yeah, so that's a high, high high on my to do list. We are actively looking for a UK project. The biggest challenge for us is getting that at a price point that people will want to pay for. Currently on MoreTrees, you can plant trees for a pound but obviously, in the UK cost of labor and things like that, it just costs more. So we're just trying to find a project where we can get that price to where, though it will be more than planting a tree in Madagascar, it's still a price that's reasonable and that businesses will actually say "Actually, I'm willing to pay that bit extra to have a UK project" rather than being the difference between 1 pound and 20 pounds. Most people just can't afford to make that that purchase for their customers. So if anyone listening knows of any UK projects that could be a good fit, then please do let us know. Hopefully we could help.Alan Wilson  27:52We're very close with a couple.Niki Tibble  27:55Yeah, they should be shortly announced, but we're always welcome to more. Alan Wilson  27:58That will be up to the customer, then. It'll be up to the individual or business that's using MoreTrees. If you want 20 trees planted, but they're not in the UK, that's fine.... Or if you want one in the UK, and it's a 20 pounds We're trying to get it a lot cheaper than that as wel but it's an understandable labor cost in the UK. So the idea is to give everyone the choice and transparency of what you want to do.Rich Bunker  28:24I suppose, yeah. I mean, the idea is to plant more trees and that could be more that you support the project by your donation rather than planting a tree. But it's nice to get that "Oh yeah, I've planted a tree today by buying some item" or "I just want to plant a tree today and given some money to find the tree."Alan Wilson  28:44Exactly, I think there is a large scope for different people out there as individuals, small businesses or enterprise businesses. That's what we will provide: the choice of what you want to do, and here are the options for you.Niki Tibble  29:00A lot of people have different motivations. So I 've spoken to people who like the fact that it's good for the planet and is offsetting carbon, but actually, they said that they're much more motivated by the poverty alleviation or the wildlife side and things like that. So yeah, it's having a range of projects that suit different people's motivators.Rich Bunker  29:28You just mentioned carbon there, and that's something I wanted to ask: Is it obvious how much carbon planting a tree somewhere is offsetting, for like a business if their goal is carbon offsetting? Can they use your platform to basically offset carbon as well as do good planting trees?Alan Wilson  29:49We've got some verified carbon credits coming. The tree planting is expensive. Currently it is voluntary, so you can still pass your ISO and everything using MoreTrees. If you're a large company and using it for your scrn... again, it's still voluntary but there's a carbon tax coming out in future as well, so that that could affect that. So we do offer additional carbon credits and in different variety. It's the Woodland Carbon code ones in the UK, so you can buy WCUs, but they start at like 12 pound a credit. So the way we estimate the carbon is by what the partners said they estimate: 300 grams per tree over the life cycle of it. The difference with that: UK WCU has to be verified over the years. Ultimately again, you're paying for scientists. That difference between one pound and 12 pound for a scientist to validate and ensure it has already happened in the past. If you buy it in the UK, and then you have to wait for the five years or so that it is completely validated that the carbon has been sequestered. As opposed to say, planting 12 trees. It is an estimate based on the planting partners. Do they have audited and validation for it but it's not the same as the WCU one.Krissie Leyland  31:33I'm just thinking: if I'm an ecommerce business, and I know that my carbon footprint is 'x, y, z'. And then I've started to offset trees with more trees. Is there a way of kind of seeing you know how far you've got to be carbon neutral? or carbon positive?Alan Wilson  31:58We have a small calculator. There's obviously some great tools out there and some great tools developing. I'm developing one myself as well. Again, it's that scenario of you've bought a product, and you maybe have brought in Turkey, then you've imported it from Turkey. But also even if you manufacture in Turkey, you've then got the person who's created the cotton... where did that cotton come from and who's the liability of the ownership of that carbon that was used to deliver the cotton there? So I think it's a very early industry as well. Currently, there really isn't a good full carbon calculator tool that is easy to use, and really does understand it because it goes to the massive level.Krissie Leyland  32:56What it could do is just estimate what your carbon footprint is and just maybe offset more than you think you need to. Then hopefully, you're at a higher level.Niki Tibble  33:11On the platform, when you sign up, there's a dashboard that tells you all your stats. It tells you your estimate of how many trees you planted or gifted and it gives you an estimate of what that is in carbon, according to what our projects have been audited at.Krissie Leyland  33:30So based on that, then, what are some milestones that you've reached that you're really proud of?Niki Tibble  33:39As you know, when you start a business and you're like, "Oh, god, no one's gonna use it1" then you get your first customer that you don't know... So that was a big milestone, when it wasn't my mom planting a tree. I mean, it happened really quickly. I think it was the next day, wasn't it Alan.Alan Wilson  33:58Yeah. I mean, we kept saying, "how long is it gonna be before someone tells someone to tell someone who wants a tree?" Yeah, Nikki's mum's our first customer. So Nikki's mum, when she she planted the first one: it was five o'clock in the 14th of October... then we did a soft, soft launch, wasn't it Niki? Niki's mum posted on Facebook and then 24 and a half hours later, the first person who had no connection with us started planting trees, which is great. So a lot quicker than we thought.Niki Tibble  34:37Yeah, that was a nice milestone. And I think the first person that automated a tree without any input from us–we didn't talk them through the setting up, they just went they did it–that was, for me, that was a big milestone to think we've actually created this system where you can just plant trees automatically. And it works and people are doing it without us having to build the tech for them.Alan Wilson  35:01That you didn't have to deal with tech? (laughter)Niki Tibble  35:10Yeah it was because I didn't have to do any of the tech. That was the actual milestone for me. (laughter)Krissie Leyland  35:10Do you get notified when someone does that on their phone?Niki Tibble  35:17Yes, we have it popping out whenever trees are planted. And it's getting to the stage where it's like, "I can't cope."Krissie Leyland  35:26Really? That's amazing. I'd be like up first.Rich Bunker  35:38Yeah, amazing.Krissie Leyland  35:44People–what, sorry, were you going to say something?Alan Wilson  35:47No, no, no. Just other milestones. I mean, we've planted tons of thousands of thousands of trees. It's just really been, I think, overall it's just a milestone in terms of doing that business that is good. My previous business is great business and ecommerce, but it's about growth, customers and making customers good. But this is just about everything. I think its customers, partners, end customers, our customers... Just everything has just been so great. I think so. I think pushing towards environment has been good, it's just been brilliant.Niki Tibble  36:23And it must be like what you two feel with MindfulCommerce, where you've taken something where you're making an actual impact, you know, genuine difference. As opposed to, before obviously copywriting I love and I can bring joy to people at work... but to actually make a positive impact on the planet is just heartwarming.Alan Wilson  36:45Actually... just as we've talked, someone just planted 100 trees.Niki Tibble  36:48Woo!Krissie Leyland  36:48Yay!Rich Bunker  36:49Well done on that!Alan Wilson  36:55We do have a bad news story... On our early days with some test customers. So my Auntie Barbara...Niki Tibble  37:03Oh, yeah...Alan Wilson  37:04...we asked some people to test that out and then my auntie dedicatedly bought five trees, and then she gives a four star review.Krissie Leyland  37:21but Five stars!Niki Tibble  37:23She says she doesn't get five stars.Alan Wilson  37:26Yes, I replied. So I thought she must have done a mistake. "What are you doing? Why'd you give us four stars?" She was like "I never give a five star son"Rich Bunker  37:37She's clearly one of those poeple that's a bit like myself, "there's always room for improvement!"Alan Wilson  37:43She's only gonna get a four star Christmas present this year. (laughter) Everyone else's gave us five stars.... But yeah.Krissie Leyland  38:03I think we've asked quite a lot. Anything else that you'd like to cover?Niki Tibble  38:10No, I don't think so. Alan?Alan Wilson  38:12No, no.Krissie Leyland  38:13Where can people find you if they have any questions about planting trees with MoreTrees?Niki Tibble  38:18So our website is moretrees.eco and there's loads of tons of information on there. And we're always hanging around in live chat, as well.Krissie Leyland  38:29Do you have an email? And are you on social media?Niki Tibble  38:33Yeah, so the email is team@moretrees.eco and all our social media handles are moretreeshq.Krissie Leyland  38:41Perfect. Thank you! There's a question there about how can people get started but I think we've kind of covered that to be honest.Alan Wilson  38:54 It's just easy. I mean, that's the beauty of it. You can if you want the pre top up credits, you can. You can automate if you just want to buy it there straight, and then it is really, really quick. And Niki has done some nice little User Guide videos and stuff.Niki Tibble  39:08Yeah, what we haven't covered is that the process, the sign up is free. Then you can plant trees for yourself. You can either plant the most needy tree and most needy project or you can select the specific tree and project type. Then if you're planting for your customers, you can either do it manually, which is just typing in their name and email address by a spreadsheet. So just Bulk Upload, which is the same details (name and email address) or you can use Alan's wonderful API's and Zapier integrations to do it all automatically. It really is that simple. In fact, we actually have to add in a step to make it harder to plant trees because people were saying, "well, I wasn't ready to plant trees. I didn't know I was going to plant a tree!". Because when you do it for someone else, they get a customized message, which you can tailor in the email settings. People were like "I didn't realize. It was too easy. I hadn't set up my message and I wasn't ready." We had to add another little step saying, "Are you sure?" because people found it too easy. You have to make it harder to plant trees...Krissie Leyland  40:20But it's good because it made me personalize the email and I thought, "Oh yeah, this is better." (laughter) Thank you very much. This has been great.Niki Tibble  40:29No, thank you.Alan Wilson  40:29Thank you, appreciate it.Niki Tibble  40:32I mean, I think MindfulCommerce is such a brilliant idea and a great community.Krissie Leyland  40:37Thank you! We could we could maybe do an event or something together soon.Rich Bunker  40:44We hope you enjoyed the episode today. If you did, you're probably like being in our community. There's a whole host of exciting things going on.Krissie Leyland  40:51So don't forget to join by going to mindfulcommerce.io. Click on 'Community' and register from there.Rich Bunker  40:57If you liked this episode, please share, leave a review and remember to subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

John 2:1225 (ESV) 12After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days. Jesus Cleanses the Temple 13The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16And he told those who sold the pigeons, Take these things away; do not make my Fathers house a house of trade. 17His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for your house will consume me. 18So the Jews said to him, What sign do you show us for doing these things? 19Jesus answered them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20The Jews then said, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days? 21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken. Jesus Knows What Is in Man 23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

Join Susan Lamotte, CEO and founder of Exaqueo as she dives deeper into gender reduction in the workplace. Announcer 0:00Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcast for talent acquisition and talent management. Listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We're glad you're here. Shannon Pritchett 0:18So let me introduce our next presenter, which is a friend of ours at a CareerXroads, which is Susan Lamotte. Susan is the CEO and founder of Exaqueo, one of the things that really attracted me to her is her voice within the community. And I've mentioned at the beginning of the call, she wrote an article that was referenced in a discussion that Gerry had, I believe, on Facebook, that had had had to do with back in 2013. And it was like, Can women have it all which, of course, we've all had that kind of debate. And I love Susan's honesty. And I love her point of view. And I couldn't relate to an article more, especially one that was eight years old. And so I asked her to come speak, and she is here with us, Susan, would you like to draw? Would you like me to Dr. r? Would you like to take controls? Susan Lamotte, Exaqueo 1:13Whichever you prefer? Shannon? Shannon Pritchett 1:15All right. I'll give it to you, sharing and then you can just share your screen and really excited for this. All right, give me just a second. Susan Lamotte, Exaqueo 1:26Sorry, I'm having some technology difficulties today. That's got to come up at least once for one person, right? Chris Hoyt 1:31I just appreciate the Peloton in the background, Susan. Susan Lamotte, Exaqueo 1:34Thank you. It's a little dusty this week, unfortunately, Chris Hoyt 1:38I'm on a streak. Susan Lamotte, Exaqueo 1:41Hopefully y'all can see my screen. Well, it's great to see everybody some new faces for me for sure. And dump some familiar ones as well. So thank you for the privilege of being here. And I've noticed I've got some old, some I shouldn't say old in age, but some folks are married on the line as well. So great to see you all as well. What I wanted to do today is actually not talk about what I do for a living, but rather tell you a little bit about my journey as a working woman. And so I know that Shannon already shared with you some of the statistics that are really troubling and, quite frankly, brought me to tears. And I think when you see things that affect you personally, and you feel like nothing has changed in your own personal situation, it's really hard to see. And we've all seen the statistics, right? There's a million examples of things you can share of underrepresented populations in the workplace and how they're affected in many different ways. But this one really struck me and here's why. If you look at this particular chart, the data is a little bit old. It's 2017. It shows the ratio of male to female, median earnings by age. And, you know, certainly it's no surprise, right? Women are learning less than men, we know that we've known that for a long time, it hasn't changed as much as we'd hoped. But what's really troubling to me is the gaps haven't changed either. Oops, sorry about that. So if you look at 1979, right, younger women still had and were earning more pay than older women. Fast forward to 2005. And that gap is still there. So for me, it's not looking at the surface data, right? The surface data is great for headlines and clickbait, and oh my gosh, women have no jobs. What's really interesting to me is the why. And hopefully my story will illuminate a little bit about that, almost 10 years ago, to right now, I was on top of the world. I was literally at the pinnacle of my career. I started working when I was 1314. I've worked ever since I put myself through almost three degrees. And I was literally killing it at work. At the time I was the global employer brand and marketing leader at Marriott I...

Key Takeaways4:18 Every Business is Different6:45 Why Do You Need to Know Your Salon’s Value9:45 Fair Market Value16:46 How Sellable is Your Business?QuotesDoug: 1:36I think it's just good to be grounded in what a realistic value of your business in. Because again I said, the whole thing, if you're not aware of it, you can't manage it. You can't make it worth more. You can't offer the right people into your company if you don't know what that number is.Laurel: 4:18So that's the first thing that's very difficult because every business is different. Every salon is different and because the humans are different, so in how they handle things.

Benjamin Sens, President of BOSS Construction Group, was at the Boca Real Estate Investment Club hosted by David Dweck in Boca Raton, Fl. Transcript Benjamin Sens 0:18So, so a municipal lien search in South Florida you would think, you know, like because I had a case in Key West, it was for free in Monroe […] The post What typically does a municipal search cost? first appeared on BOSS Construction Group.

You're listening to Danny, on WHAT : DE HEK podcast. This is the place where I share my experience, knowledge and skills.Transcribed by OtterDanny de Hek 0:00We’ve got John Viney all the way from the UK. I’m quite pleased about this podcast because it’s my last podcast of the year and I’m about to get on an aeroplane and go visit. So really nice to have you here, John and come along.John Viney 0:16Great to be here, Danny, thankDanny de Hek 0:18So it’s seven o’clock Sunday night.John Viney 0:22It is seven o’clock Sunday night in Wales in the UK.Danny de Hek 0:25I have been to wales, was gonna tell you that we had a we checked before we went live, interestingly enough, is 20 past eight in Monday morning. So I often say to people that I live in the future. And you live in the past? Do you want to know anything? that’s gonna happen in the next few hours.John Viney 0:46Oh, yeah. Do you know what the lottery numbers are?Danny de Hek 0:50Ah, I won last week, I got $25. That’s good.John Viney 0:57I don’t buy lottery tickets. So don’t worry.Danny de Hek 1:00I was finding to join. I actually have about 107 to be exact questions, and I’ll pick that 12 questions. I don’t actually know what they are myself. And the idea behind this is just basically to have 12, unprompted questions that we ask along the way, and we don’t know where it’s going to take us. So I’ll get started with the very first question. If she’ll oops, and now I’m a bit dyslexic sometimes. So I have to repeat if you could share a meal with any individual living or dead? Who would it be? Who would you like to have a meal?John Viney 1:31Wow, wait, share a meal? Um, boy, let me think I just need to have a little Think aboutDanny de Hek 1:40That. Okay.John Viney 1:43Well, because my, because my, my grant, my father’s grant might Sorry, my father’s dad and mum died when he was young. I didn’t know my grandmother, my grandfather and my grandmother on my dad’s side. So I would love to sit down and talk to my grandfather. And my grandmother on my dad’s side, because they were living in London. They were what we call dragon bone men. So the the, you know, with a horse and cart, and I, I think they were really interesting characters. So I’d like to do that simply because it would give me some family background, some family knowledge, and I think it’d be entertaining. So they’re not famous, yet. I haven’t given the name of someone famous. But my, my grandfather and my grandmother on my dad’s side.Danny de Hek 2:47Right, if you could live in a different period of time, rather than the one now where would you go back to?See Full TXT Script at https://www.dehek.com/general/podcast/what-de-hek-podcast-12-questions-with-john-viney/P.S. If you like this podcast please click “like” or provide comment, as that will motivate me to publish more. Would you like the opportunity to be featured on the WHAT : DE HEK Podcast? You are welcome to INVITE YOURSELF to be a guest.

Philippians 2:12-18 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. 14Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, "children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation." Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me. Psalm 28:6-9 Praise be to the LORD, for he has heard my cry for mercy. 7The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and he helps me. My heart leaps for joy, and with my song I praise him. 8The LORD is the strength of his people, a fortress of salvation for his anointed one. 9Save your people and bless your inheritance; be their shepherd and carry them forever. Romans 1:21-25 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen. This is a mini series to look at how we can give Jesus thanks on the Thanksgiving holiday as oppose to just stuffing our faces with turkey. This episode looks into defeating sin through the power of thanksgiving towards Jesus as a lifestyle. Happy Thanksgiving and… LET'S DIVE IN! Random Country to pray for Today: Peru Episode's Theme Song: Pentatonix - Amazing Grace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obp-9BEZe1c)

2 Corinthians 4:16-18 (NLT)16That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. 17For our present troubles are small and won't last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! 18So we don't look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.Problems and human limitations have several benefits·       They remind us of Christ's suffering for us·       They can keep us from pride·       They cause us to look beyond this brief life·       They prove our faith to others·       They give God the opportunity to demonstrate His power·       They bring an eternal reward 

A Plot to Kill Paul 12When it was day,the Jews made a plot andbound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.13There were more than forty who made this conspiracy.14They went to the chief priests and elders and said, We have strictly bound ourselves by an oath to taste no food till we have killed Paul.15Now therefore you, along with the council, give notice to the tribune to bring him down to you, as though you were going to determine his case more exactly. And we are ready to kill him before he comes near. 16Now the son of Paul's sister heard of their ambush, so he went and enteredthe barracks and told Paul.17Paul called one of the centurions and said, Take this young man to the tribune, for he has something to tell him.18So he took him and brought him to the tribune and said, Paulthe prisoner called me and asked me to bring this young man to you, as he has something to say to you.19The tribune took him by the hand, and going aside asked him privately, What is it that you have to tell me?20And he said,The Jews have agreed to ask you to bring Paul down to the council tomorrow, as though they were going to inquire somewhat more closely about him.21But do not be persuaded by them, for more than forty of their men are lying in ambush for him, whohave bound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink till they have killed him. And now they are ready, waiting for your consent.22So the tribune dismissed the young man, charging him, Tell no one that you have informed me of these things. Paul Sent to Felix the Governor 23Then he called two of the centurions and said, Get ready two hundred soldiers, with seventy horsemen and two hundred spearmen to go as far as Caesarea at the third hour of the night.[a]24Also provide mounts for Paul to ride and bring him safely toFelixthe governor.25And he wrote a letter to this effect: 26Claudius Lysias, tohis Excellency the governor Felix,greetings.27This man was seized by the Jews andwas about to be killed by themwhen I came upon them with the soldiers and rescued him,having learned that he was a Roman citizen.28Anddesiring to know the charge for which they were accusing him, I brought him down to their council.29I found that he was being accusedabout questions of their law, butcharged with nothing deserving death or imprisonment.30And when it was disclosed to methat there would be a plot against the man, I sent him to you at once,ordering his accusers also to state before you what they have against him. 31So the soldiers, according to their instructions, took Paul and brought him by night to Antipatris.32And on the next day they returned tothe barracks, letting the horsemen go on with him.33When they had come to Caesarea and delivered the letter to the governor, they presented Paul also before him.34On reading the letter, he asked whatprovince he was from. And when he learnedthat he was from Cilicia,35he said, I will give you a hearingwhen your accusers arrive. And he commanded him to be guarded in Herod'spraetorium. Paul Before Felix at Caesarea 24Andafter five days the high priestAnanias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid beforethe governor their case against Paul.2And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying: Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight,most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation,3in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude.4But, to detain[b]you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly.5For we have found this man a plague,one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader ofthe sect of the Nazarenes.6He even tried to profane the temple, but we seized him.[c]8By examining him yourself you will be able to find out from him about everything of which we accuse him. 9The Jews also joined in the charge, affirming that all these things were so. 10And when the governor had nodded to him to speak, Paul replied: Knowing that for many years you have been a judge over this nation, I cheerfully make my defense.11You can verify thatit is not more than twelve days since Iwent upto worship in Jerusalem,12andthey did not find me disputing with anyone or stirring up a crowd, either in the temple or in the synagogues or in the city.13Neither can they prove to you what they now bring up against me.14But this I confess to you, that according tothe Way, which they calla sect,I worshipthe God of our fathers, believing everythinglaid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,15havinga hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will bea resurrectionof both the just and the unjust.16So I alwaystake pains to have aclear conscience toward both God and man.17Nowafter several yearsI came to bring alms tomy nation and to presentofferings.18While I was doing this, they found mepurified in the temple, without any crowd or tumult. Butsome Jews from Asia19they ought to be here before you and to make an accusation, should they have anything against me.20Or else let these men themselves say what wrongdoing they found when I stood before the council,21other than this one thingthat I cried out while standing among them: It is with respect to the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you this day. Paul Kept in Custody 22But Felix, having a rather accurate knowledge ofthe Way, put them off, saying, When Lysias the tribune comes down, I will decide your case.23Then he gave orders to the centurion that heshould be kept in custody but have some liberty, and thatnone of his friends should be prevented from attending to his needs. 24After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak aboutfaithin Christ Jesus.25And as he reasonedabout righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, Go away for the present.When I get an opportunity I will summon you.26At the same time he hopedthat money would be given him by Paul. So he sent for him often and conversed with him.27When two years had elapsed, Felix was succeeded by PorciusFestus. Anddesiring to do the Jews a favor,Felix left Paul in prison.

Hello, everyone, Joy, and Jason is back. It has been a minute. But we are here to talk about the bullet train. Yes, I know it's a bit strange, but a bullet train as in, you know, where are you currently in your life? And are you going to stop at garbage'ville or is it going to be like a smooth sell to you? Hi there. My name is Nicholson. I'm an entrepreneur, digital marketer, coach, and mentor. I've been diving in deep for the last year to discover what it takes to become a successful entrepreneur, not just the fluff that you see on the outside when you see people that are already successful, but what it takes behind the scenes to become successful. What I have discovered was mind-blowing, millionaires think differently. They have unique habits, focus, discipline, and so much more. Follow along in this podcast, I'll be sharing my journey, the journey of other entrepreneurs, what makes them successful, but most importantly, how it can help you to become successful.01:07Let's do this. Oh boy coming to you live from garbage'ville. Never let's do this smooth sailing ball alright.01:18Let's dive into this. So I and Jason was debating about what are we actually talking about today because we have a lot of topics but sometimes we really want to make sure that it's where people are currently in their lives we try to make sure that it's at least in line with what people are experiencing as much as possible. And there's a lot of stress and uncertainty going on today. And you know, in the world that we are in today, and it doesn't help you know, and like Jason was saying like you it's uncovering your weak and your strong points right. And yeah,you want to explain a little bit, please.01:53Well, first off, it has been a minute so I Joy how are you doing? Hi everybody out there, hoping everybody's doing well. It has been crazy around here lately. For those of you that haven't caught any previous episodes, I'm coming to you from the States. And it is madness over here. We seem to be the best in the world at being the shittiest right now. And so that's the train that I'm kind of riding. Nice. The garbage will train.02:24The garbage will train. I'm telling you, we're full speed ahead over here. Yeah, so, you know, like Joy said, we come up with these topics to talk about. And sometimes you just have to talk about, you know, what you feel is right, and what's going on right now, and just start there. And so, as Joy mentioned, you know, it's a stressful time out there, you know, particularly with the Coronavirus, so whether you're in a country that is in the thick of it, or it's coming back, or you're in a country like Joy that they've been doing really well and it's kind of subsiding. It doesn't take long for you to turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper and see what's going on around the world and it's a scary time right now. And the thing is, all of us, we are interconnected with one another and with the universe, and that's pretty deep, but it is super important. Okay, why? Yeah, stress and uncertainty really have a magnificent way of uncovering our weak points and strong points of where we are currently in our lives. So like right now is an extremely stressful time. Take a look at what's going on that's really going on really well in your life right now, and what's not going so well, and you can guarantee that this is where you would have been in a normal situation, five to 10 years from now. It's just this scary time and uncertainty is really put you on a bullet train and fast-forwarded your life and giving you a glimpse of where you would have been five to 10 years from now, which gives you an opportunity to make things happen now, kinda like, hey, welcome to the future, here's what your life would have looked like, what are we going to do now to put you on the better train?04:16So do you think because people have been in lockdown, and I've been forced to deal because that's really what it is forced to deal with the situations at the end forced to like, think about things that I would not have thought about in 10 years, or five years, whatever? Do you think that is the thing that is putting people on this train? Because I mean, I've heard of so many people that are getting divorced, and so many people that you know, it's just like, it's family things that have just gone down the tubes and things where they thought it's like, oh, I'm actually in a good marriage, but meanwhile, they're getting divorced. Or my kids are actually doing pretty well. My kids are happy but then the kids actually turn out to not be happy, you know, little things like that. Do you think it's because we are just brushing it to a side and not dealing with it?04:59Yeah, of course, I mean, wisdom how do you know a leader as a great leader? Not when they're leading in times of amazingness? No, you're not looking to someone for help. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Great leaders make certainty out of uncertain times, right? These are uncertain times, place yourself in this uncertain time. What are you doing well, who is looking up to you? What are they looking up to you for? Who's looking at you going dude, you're on a bullet train to garbage will. Do you know what I mean? Take a look right now, at your strengths and weaknesses. They're more prevalent today, right now than they have ever been. Yeah. And which gives us an opportunity to say hey, what do I have to work on and be ready for the next wave of whatever comes along in our life? Do you know what I mean? Now's the time.05:59Is there like a framework to look into their strengths and weaknesses as a person? Like is there like something that you can just you know, like work or like a framework or a point system or something? You don't need no. Just asking. No, no, I get it. No, no, no, you know, where you suck. But sometimes people know where they suck, but they are too proud to admit where they suck.06:29If you know that, Jesus then goes to a car on the shit train, where there's nobody and start drawing it out. Work it out for yourself, pick up your? Goggles. We haven't had them in a while.06:52Yes, and I've got one too. Jason is very proud of me. We actually did an episode on journaling, like three-four episodes ago, and I also have a general so see I've also been doing it so07:03It works. I can say that much it does work, it works. It's an opportunity for you to not have to go to anybody else on the train. Like I don't have to come to sit in Joy's seat and poke around the shoulder and go, hey, am I sucking, do I suck? And Joy's not going to tell me because she's thinking, well, I know he sucks but I suck too. It's an opportunity for you to go sit by yourself open up your journal and write down here's where I know I suck. And it needs some questions to ask yourself in your journal to find out what train you're on because you're not quite sure we can give you those for sure. But this is a great place to start. This is also a great time that you might have some time on your hands more than you normally would. To start putting some plans in place. Start taking some action. We have done episodes on this before. This is nothing new. The world might be a little bit scarier than it was a few weeks ago. Which is all the more reason to watch these videos that we do listen to what we're saying, get off the shit train?08:20Yeah, you can get on touch make sure that you don't miss any of these episodes because they're good. It's a good value. And we've had quite a few comments of people just saying like this episode really changed my life. Thank you. So just guys, it's like it is value Jason no one is talking about.08:36Okay. Sorry, if you're not sure what if you're really really truly not sure what train you're on? You give me a call I will get your ticket. I'll tell you exactly where your next stop is. And be crystal clear and honest so will Joy. We met each other on the shit train. We were passengers together. That is actually very true. We have the same ticket, this train headed to you here about where we're going it sucks let's get off here. Should I do a better train?09:19What exactly we did and it's a decision that you have to make and this is the thing it's not going to be one of those things it's like yeah, okay I'm on this journey actually sticks it's not really working for me and you know, I've got some issues and so many this and so many that I just don't know if I can deal with this. That is all a form of procrastination. And you just honestly scared to change you are fearing the step the stepping stone and I mean, I've been there, you know, I'm not judging in any way shape or form because I was that person. And I can say firsthand, and I'm sure Jason can do the same like that stepping stone is scary, but it is worth it. And once you get off, you know once that train is getting into garbage will you decide no, no, no, no, no, let's get off before it hits, you know, garbage will, it really makes a massive difference in your life change so much. I mean, like, and Jason, I had so many issues with journaling. I didn't want to journal. Because I know myself and I even said to him before we started recording this. It hasn't been that fun journaling, because it hasn't, you know, I had to deal with unresolved issues of things that 10 years ago, 15 years ago, which I've been dealing with in my journal, so I'm not telling the world about my issues. I'm not dealing, I'm not sharing it with any other person. I'm just sharing it with my journal. And I have uncovered things about myself that I didn't even realize was a problem. And therefore you grow because you actually become better. You know, so.10:45And again, all valid points but understand no matter what train you decide to get on, yeah, the train will have curves and turns and it will go up and it will go down. But the destination, that's up to you. Yeah, that's up to you anticipate turns and curves and ups and downs and changes in elevation. Yeah. But where you're going to stop that? What ticket do you buy? That's up to you. And now more than ever, you know what train you're on. And again, as I said, if you don't call us, we'll read your ticket for you. We'll let you know where you're headed.11:29Because, yeah, yeah, direct inbox that's for sure. Okay, so so journaling is one thing that can help us to just uncover our weak points and our strong points, right, because, I mean, firstly, that really helped me a lot and okay, so we're stressing with stress and uncertainty we've mentioned this at the beginning of this episode. So Jase what is that thing that can help you except for the journaling part what can help you with the uncertainty, the uncertainty because obviously it journaling is a big part of the stress thing that can help you to sort that out. But that's not enough. What else can we help you know, that give people to help them with that stress and uncertainty in the current times?12:06I mean, you there are besides like, okay, well I can go out and do my breathing exercises or, or what have you and these little things to keep the moment or clear your head at the moment. It's about being centered with yourself. So you can be honest with yourself at all times. Yeah. And we've gone over a lot of these things before. And it's not only journaling is paying attention to how we talk to ourselves. It's getting ourselves into a state of mind on a daily basis. We're always doing a self-audit, and always looking at our ticket and seeing where we're heading. And all kinds of things we can do. There in every episode that joy and I talked about and these episodes, we come up with an idea of what we want to talk about but largely it comes from who we are inside and our personal experiences. We don't read a story about someone and go hey, look at this guy. Look at this guy. Let's talk about him. You know this stuff comes from us. Yeah. And so it's getting yourself centered with you your relationship with you. If it's not centered by default your relationship with anybody else or anything else on this planet cannot be centered. That needs to be taken care of first.13:31Okay, so let's this I don't want to talk about like divorce as being the thing but it's just like so common because seriously, there's been so many people that have rocky relationships. Now with you guys still being on lockdown luckily, we're in New Zealand we are out of it now. But it really takes a toll on relationships. And I'm not just saying divorce. I'm talking like parents with their children. I mean, even for me, I had some issues with my kids. And it's not because there were really issues it's just behavioral issues because things come out. You know, you're getting frustrating being in each other's space the whole time and being in lockdown and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like having a relationship and having issues with either your spouse or your children, or one of those, do you have any advice for people? How did I deal with that uncertainty because that is quiet that is hard for a lot of people, right? Because it's not something that you're used to doing.14:19When it comes to your personal relationships with your children or your spouse, your significant other, whatever it is, what a great time to start really understanding what's going on. It's much more than just been around this person for so long, it's just getting annoying. It's not that there are there's something going on that is making you feel that way and you are now succumbing to those feelings of he sucks I see it now. It's not that and this goes back to where I said this time of uncertainty, especially if you're getting stuck with one person or another, you're getting a glimpse of to where you were headed. Five to 10 years from now in your relationship more, more often than not. Either you're, you know, your basic human needs that we all have there's five or six of them, maybe you're starting to realize that, where you place your top two are not the same as your partners. I mean they're not there, this was going to fall apart anyway. But now we have an opportunity to see where we were headed relationship garbage'ville and we have an opportunity to check now say, how can we figure this out rather than just say, I knew you were always shit.15:52I knew it. And God sent us this disease to show me that you're garbage. Now's the time we can fix things with our children, with our spouses with our loved ones, people that we are now being forced to spend more time with than we normally would have it's a great opportunity to try to say, let's see if we can get out on a different train together.16:18So what if you're in a family situation? And  I'm just thinking, like the majority of people out there that could have potentially this problem? How do you deal with that? Like, do you have family gatherings? Do you just hit on, you know, like, because you can't just say like, okay, honey, we're having issues let go out for dinner and talk about it with the kids being around because you can't go out for dinner right. I am laughing about it, but I'm just thinking of the situation. So how do you actually how do you do that then?16:48Joanna and I fought for some time when we met each other we've now decided, no, I can't. That's not how we can go. Do you know what I mean? I would first start, you know if it's a whole family dynamic that seems to be crumbling. Again, I would really go back to the basic human needs that we all need as people and we find a way to make it happen and I would go through each one of those, each of those. Can you name them? Basic human needs go through those, talk about it with somebody who knows what they're talking about. And look at how you are satisfying those basic human needs. And that gives you amazing insight into why you might be clashing. And then once you understand how to do that you do it for the kids. Yeah. And now once we all understand our basic human needs and how we're satisfying those needs, now we can look at our interrelationships with each other. I'm not getting along with my son in this area. I understand why because he really values he values being, you know when kids are growing up, they want to be what is it different from everybody I want to stand out, and I want to grow up and I want to be an adult, you know what I mean? This is how he is prioritizing some of his needs, where mine is, I'd like to just be quiet. And you know what I mean and just let things be and not rock the boat. And I like certainty. That's very different from a child that is growing up and when you can understand that dynamic and that push, now you can understand how to work with your work with each other a little bit and better understand each other. And now it can happen with everybody in the family.18:47I'm trying to say this in Afrikaans, the five basic human needs. I know we  mentioned them before but can we just mention them in this episode? Yeah. Let's, I'm gonna have to write them down because I don't always keep the names right in my head. Number one would be a certainty. Yeah. And uncertainty. Yes.19:17We have the need to feel loved opposite of that will love being different, opposite of that we have the need to feel well, love would not be different. Loved, the opposite of love would be the need to be different.  This is what separates me from everybody else.  Your fifth human need would be giving back to others.19:57And finally, would be growth, how am I growing? We all feel the need to grow every single day in some sort of way. Right? If we're not doing that we're dying. Oh, yeah, we are actually designed to grow.20:15So you know, again, certainty, the need to have a regimented something, I need to know that these things are going to happen every single day. And I mean, opposite of that uncertainty. I need some sort of action, some sort of adventure in my life, something that's different from the norm. Right. Yeah. To be loved, I need to know that I'm accepted as a whole, by the group, by the family or by the people at work or whatever it is. Yeah. The difference I need to know that I'm different from everybody else. Yeah. I need to know that people love me for a different reason then they love everybody else. And I just needed to be a part of it. Yeah, exactly.21:04The opposite of each other. Yeah. Right. I need you to need to be able to give back. A person cannot be healthy and grow,if they're not feeling that as they go along in life, they can help people inherently love to help. They want to help. It's part of our DNA. It's how we survived as a species. We're not doing that in some sort of away, you may not know it, you're dying inside, and then growing as a person. These are basic human needs. And if your top two are not the same as somebody else's top two, it's not a bad thing. But there is going to be some of this going on. Yeah. A lot of times when there's this going on. Now we've given up on each other because we don't understand our basic human needs and we go to a therapist and if they don't understand and they're just reading it to you out of the book. And they're giving you the textbook answer, you're gonna walk out of there and you'll be even more confused. And that's why they say therapy is sometimes a place where relationships go to die. I love you all therapists. I do, but it doesn't work for each and every person. It's the truth. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. That's basically the gist of it. But yeah, so that's important. It is it's very important. That's good stuff.22:33I think that this is an episode because we do try to keep them under half an hour, which I'm not sure how long this man has been going. But it is good to you know, to understand and know that if you're not on the right train, to get on the right train, or if you're on this train, don't get off on garbage'ville, but get off at what we call it Pleasantville or what was it? I forgot. Kickass Ville. I don't even think we named it.22:57Whatever you want to call it, but get off at the right stop. That actually is going to help you as a person. And if you feel like you're on the path with somebody in your life, your significant other, then they're not on the same level as you I'm all about not giving up and, you know, fight for, because there's something that made you guys become a couple right and I'm gonna do you know, a couples therapist or any of those things, but I'm just, it's just so sad to see couples that are over things that like Jason said, would have happened in 10 years time, you know, obviously, this time of dispute speed things up. But I guess the biggest thing there and this is me, again, I'm not a therapist but by just looking from the outside in. Just talk to people, you know, talk to the people around you, and not just now you're forced to talk to people. If it was worth falling in love it's worth taking a look at each other's ticket. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah, you said it perfectly. So yeah. All right. That's it. Anything else you want to add to this episode Jase?24:00No, you know what, it's great to see everybody again. Well, I can't see you. I hope we get to that point soon where we can kind of do live, but great to catch up with you guys again and look forward to the next one. Thank you, Joy. Thank you, Jase. And yeah, we will be back again next week with another awesome episode. Be safe everybody. Bye

Did you start your new year off with a "theme word or phrase"? Everywhere I turn people have selected words related to vision for 2020 since 20/20 eyesight means you have perfect vision. But no-one seems more excited about the idea of 20/20 Vision than Rhonda, a dear friend of mine. She was excited because she heard the clear whisper of God that he wanted to give her clear vision spiritually in 2020. And she is really, really believing God. Here words have inspired me again. There's just nothing like hearing God speak to your heart especially when it is concerning something that has been growing in your spirit for a while. Rhonda's Dream Let me tell you how God used Rhonda's dream to influence me. She was so tired living in "sauna Florida" (No, sauna is not a place it the hot weather.) and she dreamed of living in the mountains where it was cooler. When she found her perfect patio lounger, she put it on her Facebook page. It was like a super, high-end hammock, made of a beautiful tan fabric instead of the roping that leaves marks on the back-side of your legs and arms. It was complete with an arched canopy to keep you cool as you relaxed and soothed your nerves swaying back and forth. The words she had typed below the picture echoed like sounds bouncing off a canyon wall in my head for days. They hounded me, like a persistent child repeats himself incessantly. She said... “I want this… in the mountains so I can lay there and be cool and look beyond what I can see…” The last phrase jumped off the page at me. “…and look beyond what I can see.”   I recognized my Father’s voice in those words. “Pat, look beyond what you can see.   See beyond what you can see.” I'm telling you those were heavy words... more like heavenly words. Compelling Convicting Words. See beyond what you can see! What? Do you ever hear the whisper of God and then have no idea what He means. So I pondered the words and asked God to give me understanding. I can't see beyond what I can see or can I? There are plenty of examples in Scripture. That was what God was calling the children of Israel to do…see beyond the giants. But they didn’t. That was what God was calling Joshua to do when he faced the thick walls of Jericho. And he did. The Israelites saw the giants... what they could see with their natural eyes; but Joshua saw beyond what he could see. He saw Almighty God; who stood behind His promise. And what they each saw determined where they lived and how they lived. Defeated or Victorious. What they saw determined whether they were victorious or defeated. The choice is obvious; if we want to live victorious! We have to see beyond what we can see with our natural eyes. It will take more than standing on a mountain...with binoculars or even a telescope to do that. Stumbled? The same day I stumbled onto Rhonda's post…stumbled? What a silly thought! When we walk with Jesus He guides our path. The same day I found Rhonda’s post, I listened to a teaching that solved the question that rattled even louder than God's Words...HOW? My take away from that podcast was– Seeing from God’s perspective requires a Biblically renewed mind. And that's how you can see beyond what you can see... you see through God's eyes to see what He sees. If I want to see what God sees I’ve got to crawl up in His arms, look out as He points His powerful finger in the direction of what He wants me to see. It means listening to Him...sometimes...for me it is most of the time...it means hearing His whisper. That's what revelation does... it opens your eyes and that's one of the roles of the Holy Spirit. It illuminates Scripture so you know Jesus better and what God has for you as a believer. It requires faith to see beyond what you can see. Faith that's rooted in God's promises. It requires mixing the discipline of studying God’s Word with faith. It means choosing to believe, when reason is screaming in your ears. We must look through the lens of His Word and faith in that Word to see what God sees. Focus It means we have to focus on the unseen instead of the seen. 2 Cor 4:18 New International Version So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. It is especially important when things are difficult. Let's zoom in for a closer look at that verse, but this time let's read it from the Berean Study Bible starting with verse 17. …17For our light and momentary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that is far beyond comparison. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. With so many problems going on around us, let's refocus on Jesus. Let's renew our minds with promises and Scriptures instead of gossip and news reports. Let's believe God's Word. Declare His promises and keep on doing until HIs will comes in our homes and in our lives. Let's pray. Dear God, help us to look beyond what I can see to behold you …to behold your face… to see what you see, so we can be what you called us to be. So we can do what you called us to do. Did you see what was beyond the tree? Are you seeing what is beyond what you can see?

For our present troubles are small and won’t last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! 18So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.

[Due to lightning stike this weeks recording was cut short] The Boldness of the Disciples 13When they observed the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14And since they saw the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in opposition. 15After they ordered them to leave the Sanhedrin, they conferred among themselves, 16saying, “What should we do with these men? For an obvious sign has been done through them, clear to everyone living in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17But so that this does not spread any further among the people, let’s threaten them against speaking to anyone in this name again.” 18So they called for them and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19Peter and John answered them, “Whether it’s right in the sight of God for us to listen to you rather than to God, you decide; 20for we are unable to stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 21After threatening them further, they released them. They found no way to punish them because the people were all giving glory to God over what had been done. 22For this sign of healing had been performed on a man over forty years old.

John 16:12–22     12[Jesus said:] “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.     16“A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” 17So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?” 18So they were saying, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.” 19Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? 20Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.”  

In the inaugural episode of Beneath the Subsurface, we delve into the exciting realm of AI and Machine Learning as a blossoming new part of the energy industry. Arvind Sharma and Robert Gibson discuss and debate the impacts of disruptive technology, the importance of robust data libraries when building AI solutions, and the future of our industry with AI and ML solutions. With your host for the episode, Erica Conedera, we explore the factors that pushed our slow moving industry to this tipping point in technology and where it could be leading us.  TABLE OF CONTENTS:0:00 - Intro1:03 - Factors that brought AI to O&G5:32 - Job creation with AI12:05 - Career paths and team compositions in the industry15:30 - Industry pain point solutions with AI and ML21:32 - Clouds, open source and democratization24:24 - Kaggle and crowdsourcing Salt Net30:51 - Kaggle challenges with Well Data33:58 - Catching up with silicon valley36:49 - Approaching solutions with AI44:18 - Disciplining data and metadata to get to the "good stuff"EPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera:00:00Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that investigates the intersection of geoscience and technology. And in our first episode, we'll be diving into the dynamic field of AI and machine learning as it relates to the oil and gas industry. We'll be discussing the impact of disruptive technology, the importance of robust data libraries when building AI solutions, and exciting possibilities for the future oil and gas. From the TGS software development team. My name is Erica Conedera. And with me today are Arvind Sharma, our VP of data and analytics, and Rob Gibson, our director of strategy, sales, data and analytics. Thank you gentlemen for being with us today for our first episode.Rob Gibson:00:48Glad to be here.Arvind Sharma:00:49Thank you Erica.Erica:00:51So let's start our discussion today by talking about the factors that brought the industry to AI and machine learning. Why now? Why not sooner? Why not later?Rob:01:03Well I'll start. Um, so thank you for the introduction, my name's Rob Gibson. I've been with TGS for almost 20 years now. And in that time, the thing that I have kind of seen over the 20 years in this company, , and probably another eight or nine in the industry, is that we've always been a little slow to adopt technology. And I come from the IT side of the world, software engineering, database design - so from my perspective, it's always been a little bit slow to bring in new technology.Rob:01:34And the things where I've seen the biggest change has been fundamental shifts in the industry, whether it's a crash in oil price, or, or some other kind of big disruptor in the industry as a whole, like the economy, not just our industry but the entire economy. But in middle of 2014 with the current downturn, that's really where I finally started to see the big shift toward AI, toward machine learning, towards IOT in particular.Rob:02:00But it seems like it took a big, big change in the industry where we lost hundreds of thousands of people across the industry and we really still needed a lot of work to get done. So technology has been able to kind of fill in the void. So, even as the downturn happened, we kind of started to level off at the bottom of the downturn and that's when companies started to see that we really needed to inject some more technology to get those decisions made. So generally speaking, I would say that this industry has been a little slow to move to adopt technology even though the industry has got a lot of money to invest in those kinds of things.Arvind:02:34Um, so thank you Erica for that question. And, I'm going to slightly disagree, more broadly, I agree with rob that um, oil and gas industry is historically a little slow in adopting technology, but, the reason I think is a slightly different, I think a oil and gas work in very difficult area where we need to have very robust proven up technologies to work. And in general, we wait a little bit for the technology to prove itself before adopting into, um, more difficult areas. So if we look at a little bit historical view, um, we have been on the leading edge of technology for a very long time. Um, some of the early semiconductors were built by your physical, um, companies. Um, then, as we moved to, PC revolution, we started actually PC, um, we started to actually pick up PCs into office very quickly, not as good as the silicon graphics people, but, soon afterwards, and then when the technology evolution started happening more in the silicon valley, then we started to regress a little bit. We continued on the part of what we were doing, whereas there was a divergence somewhere between mid nineties where silicon valley started to actually develop a little bit faster and we started to lag behind. And I think as Rob said, that, 2014 was a good time because at that time there was a need for us to adopt technology to increase our efficiency and, fill the gap that was created due to capital constraint. And as well as fleeing of, some of the knowledge base, employees - from our sector.Rob:04:39That's a good point on the technology side because you said that we kind of diverged away from where silicon valley really took off in the mid nineties. I entered into the industry in '94. So for me, my entire career has been that diverging process and just now it feels really good. Like we're finally catching up, not only catching up, but we've got customers, we've got employees who are sitting inside of the top tech companies in the world sitting at Google's facilities, even though they're an oil and gas company, sitting and working with Amazon, with Oracle, with IBM, with all these top names. And yet they're doing it in collaboration with the industry. Where in the past, it was almost like the two things were somewhat separated and now they are on a converging path. They've got the technology, we've got the data, at least in our space. And those two things coming together is kind of the critical mass we need to see some success.Erica:05:32So on that note, what kind of jobs do you think are going to be created in the future as the industries continue to convergence?Rob:05:40You know, that's a, that's a great prognostication. I mean, it's kind of interesting when you look back at like airbnb and Uber and those kinds of things. Nobody saw those coming and nobody knew what that was going to look like five years into their business, not to mention 10 or 15. I think that's what we're looking at in the oil and gas industry as well. We still have to find oil and gas. We still have to explore. We still have to be technologists, whether it's IT technology or G&G technology, we still have to operate in those spaces. But the roles may be very different. I'm hoping that a lot more of the busy legwork is a lot easier for us to work with and it has been historically, but we're still going to have to do those core G&G jobs. I just don't know what they're going to look like five years from now.Arvind:06:29I mean the way I see it is that it will be high-gradation to, like it will be more fulfilling jobs. The future jobs hopefully will be more fulfilling. So because a good portion of the grunt work, the work that everyone hated to do, but they had to do it to get to the final work, like final interesting work. Hopefully all those things will this machine learning and AI and broader digitization will help alleviate that part. And even whether you are technologist, whether you are a geologist, whether you're a geophysicist or whether you're a decision-maker. Like in all of those, um, you will start moving from the low value work to high value work. The technologist who was looking into log curve, they will actually start evaluating the log curve rather than just digitizing it. And that's, in my view, it's a more fulfilling job job compared to just doing the mundane work. And I, so that's the part first part is that what kind of job it, my hope is that it will be more fulfilling.Arvind:07:43Now the second is how many and what type of job, um, as Rob said that, the speed at which this is moving, we, it will be very difficult for us to do the prediction. Is that like if we sit here and say that they are, these are the type of job that will be created in five years, we'll be doing a disservice. We can actually make some guided prediction in which there will be need for geologist or geophysicist or petrophysicist and other people to do in what form will they be a pure geophysicist or a geophysicist who is a has a lot more broader expertise, a computer science and geophysicist working together. Those are the kinds of roles that will be needed in future because for a very long time we have operated in silos because it's not just technology is changing is the way we work is also changing is that we have operated in silos that we develop something, throw it over the fence. They, they catch it most of the time and then actually move into the next silo, and so on and so forth. Is that what-Rob:08:58You hope they do anyway.Arvind:08:59Yeah. I hope that they do anyway, but so that's the sequential process now. Some of them will be done by machines. Some of them will be done by human. And then you have to actually create a workflow which is like fulfilling as well as efficient for the capital investor.Erica:09:19Perhaps less siloed off?Arvind:09:21Less siloed off. So there will be team of teams and the team will actually move very frequently. So it will be almost like a self organization is that these are the four people needed to solve this problem. Let's take those four people and work on that problem. And then when that problem is solved or productionized, then they actually go solve the different problems.Arvind:09:43And so it will rather than back in the days or even today, hi- fully hierarchy of system, it will still be there, will be CEO (Laughter) and but there will be more, um, team of different group and different expertise, um, very quickly building and dismantling and those, that's the agile methodology that will be needed to take this technology and use it for, like basically doing things better.Erica:10:18So to kind of hone in on where you're saying, your background is in both geophysics and um, software engineering, correct?Arvind:10:26Okay. So sorry, I didn't actually talk about myself. (Laughter) So, um, I joined the TGS a little more than a year back, um, started as a chief geophysicist and then moved into this role. But before that, most of my career has been with BP and before that for a software company. So I have worked as a software engineer for some time and then got my PhD in geophysics and then worked for a little more than 10 years in BP all the way from writing imaging.Arvind:11:01So basically fundamental imaging, algorithm writing to drilling wells. So, in my short career I have seen a lot of things and what I do see is that, there has, there is a lot of silos in BP as well as in TGS. And BP is also working on it - breaking. I have a lot of friends there who are saying is that there is a significant effort in technology and modernization is happening in changing the culture rather than- it's not just about changing PC from going from a laptop to iPad. That's a- that's a tool. But the fundamental change will happen in the thought process. And if we want to actually use machine learning and these kinds of digital technology then it needs to be very integrated and the silo mentality is not going to work. You have to look at the problem as a holistic to solve it.Erica:12:02Yeah.Arvind:12:02So, so that's the background. So that's my background.Erica:12:05Yeah. So I asked because I wondered if you think that your career path is going to be the future of the industry, do you think that there are going to be more people with a dual background in both computer science and geophysics?Arvind:12:19So that's a very polite way to say that. My, I am actually looking at that my career is the right career. So, no and yes and no both. I do think that people will become more generalist and they will have deep expertise. And it's counter intuitive - is that generalist and deep expertise is not the same. Like we are used to someone who has a very deep expertise and that are not generalists about other topicsErica:12:57Narrow and deep.Arvind:12:57So very narrow expertise. But very deep and they have shallow expertise, very broad. Those are back in the days I think we are moving towards a deep expertise in several different narrow fields. So you need like, so to truly get good collaboration and innovation, you have to have deep expertise in several different fields to integrate them together.Erica:13:27So Rob, it looks like you're chomping at the bit here. (laughter)Arvind:13:30Deep and broad. So like what we need is deep and broad.Rob:13:34Yeah. When, when Arvind was talking about, kind of the career and, and some of the other topics, two things came to mind on the technology side of things. If you look back at AT&T, they had a choice and they did investigation and some pretty deep research on whether or not they needed to move into mobile cell phone technology. And they made the choice. They did a big expensive study and spent hundreds of millions of dollars or tens of millions of dollars to identify that they needed to be prepared for an industry of say, a million cell phone users by a certain year. And that number was, I don't know, 150 times wrong. It was way, way higher than that. And you could use the same thing with Kodak. They invented the digital camera and then lost the digital camera battle. And struggled in the industry. We want to make sure that we're looking broad enough to understand what's coming down the pipe and can adapt and change to that. Not just from the individual roles in the company, but the company direction as a whole.Arvind:14:34To give a concrete example is that , I have a background in geology or physics and computer science or Rob has background in geoscience and computer science and the data analytics team. It likes our TGS data analytics team. They have, we have people who have the um, physics backgrounds. They have PhD in physics and then they have worked in geophysics and then working on well logs. Then, the other one, Sathiya - he is a geophysicist who now is working on more of a deep learning problem. And a Sribarath is the team leader. He is a geophysicist. Who is it more of a computer scientist who is working on these two problems. So, our team composition itself, the TGS data analytics team composition itself is built in a multidisciplinary fashion.Erica15:30Yeah. So I'm glad that you brought up are our current team here cause I kind of wanted to pivot to the problems that we're using AI to solve for right now. You know, like what, what are the pain points in the industry and how are we using AI for that?Arvind:15:46So, so the pain point in the industry, are I'll talk about one, is it one which is very close to my heart. I was a, so in BP I did a lot of salt interpretation. So anything which requires a lot of human intervention is a big choke point because our data set is getting bigger, larger and larger with a lot more volumes to it are a lot more information to it and we have limited human resources and we want to actually take those human resources and mobilize them to do more high value work rather than doing a lot more um, grunt work. Salt model building is an example. And where we, we actually, our data analytics team started working there. So I'll, I'll work, I'll talk about that later. But that's an example where a lot of judgment call is made early, which don't require a lot of human judgment call early interpretation. Is the true place where automation and digital transformation can actually help.Erica:17:04Rob, what's your take on this?Rob:17:06Well, the Nice thing about what we're doing with salt picking is we're really helping us and our clients reduce the time it takes to get to the indecision. On my side of,of the house, my background with TGS has largely on the well data side of things. So it's not so much about reducing the amount of time of processing the data as it is getting a higher value data set in the hands of our clients. So historically, especially in the onshore U.S., there's a significant lack of data that's reported to the regulatory agencies. So we source that data as do a lot of other people. We source data from our, our, our customers, our partners operators. We process that data, but the most important thing that we can do with that is take that huge volume of data, the largest commercially available in the industry and add more to it so that the operators are able to get to that decision making process. So like Arvind said, if we can avoid the grunt work and get them to the point where they're actually making business decisions, that's what we're doing with our analytics ready LAS Dataset. We're in-filling the gaps in the curves because they either weren't run or weren't reported. We're predicting what the missing curves would look like, based on an immense volume of data. So it's not so much about getting the product created faster, although that is another goal that we've got. Of course, we're a commercial company. We're trying to get products to our customers and make money like anybody does. But the ultimate goal with our current analytics ready LAS product is to get the most complete dataset available so that the operators can make better decisions in the subsurface; drill less wells, drill more productive wells, drill wells faster. All of those things go into why we chose to go down that that path.Arvind:18:50So, looking at a higher level. The question that you asked was like what are the choke points and how we had actually using digital transformation in machine learning and AI to help that. Um, I think we published something like our CEO talked about that in the um, few months, a month back, Norwegian Energy day. There was a nice plot that, shows that most of the time we are acquiring data for a purpose. Like we are acquiring data to solve a geologic problem so that we can actually make a decision whether to drill somewhere, or not drill somewhere whether to buy acreage or not buy acreage by our clients. So when you take that data, you have to convert that into information, that information need to convert it into knowledge. And that knowledge is what enables our clients to make better, faster and cheaper decisions.Arvind:19:51And that cycle converting from data to knowledge to decision and enabling their decision is actually is the big choke point. If you want me to say one, this is that your point is that how to actually take data and convert to knowledge fastest way and cheapest way. And that's where most of our effort is. So salt, model building is an example where we right now it takes us somewhere between the nine months to a few years when we acquire data to provide the clients with the final image that they can do interpretation and make decision. This is too long of a time. In this day and age it needs to be compressed and a good portion of that compression can happen, by better compute. But some of them cannot happen without doing a deep learning where humans are involved in like for example, salt models building where like you can actually throw as much computer it as possible. But since the cycle time requires human to drill that model, it will be the limiting cases that, so there we want to actually enable the interpreters to take our salt net, which is our algorithm and accelerate the early part of it so that they have more time to do high quality work and build and build that model faster, reduce that cycle time so that our clients can make better, faster and cheaper decisions.Rob:21:32It's been interesting to watch the transition too with our industry and the technology at the same time we've moved to the cloud, right? All of our data's now sitting at a cloud provider and if you would have looked at the oil industry five years ago, there's a very security minded mindset around the industry that says, I need to keep that data because it's a very, very critical and I want to make sure the only, I've got access to it. So there was a lot of fear about putting data in the cloud several years ago. Now you look at the cloud providers and they're spending literally billions of dollars on things like security and bandwidth and access, things that didn't exist five, 10 years ago. So that transition to be able to go to the cloud, where all, where, all of our data sits today. More and more of our clients are going there as well. And the nice thing about that is you can ramp up your needs, on compute capacity, on disk capacity, on combining data sets across partners, vendors, other operators, and collaborate and work on that data set together to come up with solutions that you couldn't possibly have done before. So it's, it's fun actually to watch that transition happen.Arvind:22:43It is going a little tangent to the question that you asked her, but, because there's a very important point about the cloud services the the biggest cloud platform is Kubernetes by Google and that's actually open source. So Google developed that and made it open source available for anyone who wants to build a cloud infrastructure. They can have it. That's the, the most to use open source, platform that, available today. So that's changing the way people work. Like red hat or Linux, Unix, Sun, Sun, microsystem or Microsoft or apple. They are very, like, even in technology sector, they are very controlling of what they are providing to their consumers. They control that environment. Whereas now things are changing in which the open source systems like, which is publicly available is becoming one of the most dominant form of a software platform. Um, if you look at android for machine learning, it's tensorflow, Pi Torch. Those are open systems software that is a democratizing the technology so that anyone and everyone can, is able to take that next step and the solve complex problem because the base is available for them. They don't have to build the base. They can actually focus on solving the high value complex problem.Erica:24:24Speaking of both Google and open source and democratizing, problem solving. So TGS recently had a Kaggle challenge, correct, can you speak a little bit about that?Arvind:24:35So, yeah, that actually, so when I joined TGS, I had, one data scientist that we, we were working with, like we were still building the data science team and we started working on the salt net problem. We had an early, um, success. We were able to do some of those things and then we realized that there is like ocean of data scientists who are across the world. We don't have actually access to that Google actually open source and they have, they're working on their problem, they're working on Apple's problem, they're working on very interesting problems. So why they're not working on it at two different reason. One is that they don't have access to it in a second, the problem is not interesting enough for them. So Kaggle was our effort to make it accessible to everyone and make it interesting so that people will work on it.Arvind:25:30So just for the, um, description of Kaggle, Kaggle is the world's largest, data science crowdsourcing platforms. So crowdsourcing is a, um, where you put the problem and it's a platform or website where the, um, the problem description is given and data science scientists to work on their like on their spare time, nights and weekend or that's their hobby or that's their job. And they solved that problem. They submit to submit on that platform and they get instantaneous result that, how a good their solution was. So that's the Kaggle is the one of the largest world's largest platform for that recently acquired by Google. So we actually approached Kaggle that- can we actually put the one of the complex problem that we have on this website or this platform and they worked with us. And so we partnered together to host the oil and gas first serious problem for the automatically building salt model. And we actually, so to Rob's point, um, the hardest problem was getting the data rights that are convincing our management that it's okay to release a certain portion of data. We had to work really hard to create an interesting problem and that once we released that data, um, this competition was very successful in the sense that if they were around 80 plus thousand different solutions, just think of the scope of itRob:27:06From almost 3000 different teamsArvind:27:093,800. So close to 4,000 people. Oh yeah. 3000 team and comprise of almost 4,000 data scientists across the world work on this problem for three months and gave us more than 80,000 different solutions. We would have never got anything like this working day and night with whole TGS working on this problem.Rob:27:32I, I found it interesting because I like did a search on Google for our, TGS salt net.Arvind:27:39Yeah.Rob:27:40And if you look at the results just on Youtube, you'll find probably 20 different videos of PhD students, data scientists getting their master's degree who are using that problem that we posted out there as part of their thesis or as part of their Grad student work to show that, that the data science process that they went through as part of their education. And now that's out there for everybody to use.Erica:28:02So this is a major disruptor isn't it, to the industry because we have basically non geologists, non geophysicists solving problems for-Rob:28:12Yeah it's, it's definitely, we, there was a lot of teams, right? So there was some that had geoscience backgrounds, some that didn't, but most of them, they just come from a data science background, right? So they could have stats or math or computer science or anything. And when they applied this, it was interesting to see the collaboration on the Kaggle user interface where the teams were out there saying, hey, I tried this. What did you guys try? And the whole idea of crowdsourcing and, and the idea that we're kind of in somewhat of a unique position where we can do that. We can, we own the data. We don't license it from somebody else. Um, it's the data that we own that we can put out there. So we've got a huge volume that we can leverage and put it into a community like that where we can actually see some of those results come in.Erica:28:57So to kind of put you on the spot-Arvind:28:59Can I- one thing to say after that to is not just about data owning the data because there are several different companies who own data, even oil and gas company, they have their own data library. I honestly think that, it says volume about TGS, that TGS was willing to take a bet on this kind of futuristic idea and like go on a limb. But, and this is, I'm just giving credit to the senior management here, that they were, they're allowed us to actually go with this. That was one of the bigger hurdle than just to owning data, that management buy-inRob:29:39Second only to data preparation for the challenge itself.Arvind:29:42Second only to the data preparation, it took us a lot of time to build-Rob:29:45YeahArvind:29:45an interesting problem. It's not just about like you have to create an interesting problem to-Erica:29:51to attract the right talent.Arvind:29:52So the winner was a group from a Belarus and the Japan. They have never met. They have never seen each other other than the Facebook.Erica:30:02Wow.Arvind:30:03And did they actually met on this Kaggle platform? They were working on this problem. They found out that there they are approaching with the two different ways and they actually teamed up so that they can combine this to create a better solution. Combining both of their effort and that that's actually happens to be the winning combination. But a traditional method won't allow us to tap into this kind of resources or brain power. That to someone from Belarus and Japan working together whom we don't know solving our problem and that is going to be a disruptor and we have to be ready to capitalize on it rather than be afraid of it.Erica:30:51Right. And that's why I wanted to go to rob, not to put you on the spot here, but as someone coming from the well data side, do you see any potential future Kaggle challenges using well data?Rob:31:05Yeah, the, that could absolutely be in our future. I think at this point we're really trying to frame the problems that we're trying to solve for our customers. And if we decide that one of those problems deserves, some time in the public, like on Kaggle, then we can absolutely go that direction. Not a problem whatsoever. At the moment though, our real focus is trying to figure out where can we provide the most value to the clients and we're kind of letting them steer us in a, you know, a way we have got our own geology department internally so we know what we need to do with our internal well data in order to high grade it to the next level product. However, we're really taking direction from our clients to make sure that we're moving in that direction. So yeah, I could see us having a problem like that, especially if it's starting to get into a Dataset that, , needs to be merged with another data set that maybe, we need support from, somewhere else in the industry. We're in a different industry.Arvind:31:59Just a few minutes on that is,the next problem I think that Kaggle need from oil and gas is a more on the solution side. So the knowledge to- like information to knowledge site in which you are all taking very different type of data set. For example, success failure database for the basin. And building a, prospect level decision that requires a, as Rob said, that collaboration, that the TGS collaborating with one of the E&P company or someone else, like those two or three companies and now bringing their data together because at the end of the day, this integration is what everyone is looking for. Can we actually create an interesting integration problem and put it on the Kaggle competition. So, any listener, if they're in, they have a good problem, they can actually contact Rob, or me. That, because we are always looking for good partners to solve complex problems. We can't solve all the problem by ourselves, neither other people. It does require teams to build the right kind of Dataset, interesting problems in to, to get into the board.Erica:33:22Okay. So we've talked about how we got here to this point in the industry with AI machine learning and we've talked about what we're doing today with the, um, let's move on to the future where we think AI will take, um, the industry. So to follow up on something that Arvind had said earlier, so you had said that we sort of fell behind silicon valley at some point. How, how far behind do you think we are right now in terms of years if you can make that estimation?Arvind:33:58Oh, that's a tough question but I'll try to answer it in a roundabout way. Is it that when I say that we lag behind, we lag behind in the compute side of it, like the AI side of it and some of the visualization and web-based technology when it comes to high performance computing, we were still leading up to very- probably in some of the spaces we are still leading. So storage and high performance compute which is both, oil and gas defense and Silicon Valley. All three are working. Um, we are not that far behind actually we might be at the cutting edge of it. And that was one of the reason that we didn't actually focus on the AI side because we were solving the problem in more high compute way and we are using bigger and bigger machine solving, more complex problems more physics based complex physics based solutions.Arvind:35:04So when it comes to solving physics based solution, we are still, at the front of the pack. But when it comes to solving a heuristic auto machine learning or AI based solution, we are behind, we are behind in robotics and things like that and we are catching up. So when you think of a mid midstream and downstream where there's a lot of the internet of things, IOT instruments, so things are getting is like instrumentized and there are a lot of instruments which are connected to each other and real time monitoring, predictive maintenance. Those are happening and happening at a very rapid rate. And that will actually, we'll, we'll catch up in a few years in, in midstream and downstream side or mostly instrumentation side where we are truly lagging is subsurface because it's not the problem that Ian, and like, silicon valley was trying to solve.Arvind:36:05A subsurface problem are complex. They are very different type of problem; that someplace you have very dense data, someplace We have very sparse data. How to actually integrate that and humans are very good at integrating different scale of information in a cohesive way, whereas that problem is not the problem that silicon like, technology sector was trying to solve. And so we are trying to actually take the solutions that they are building to solve different problem and integrating it or adapting that to solve our problem. So that's where like I see like, so I think it's a non answer but that's what the best I have. (Laughter)Erica:36:49It was a very good answer. So how does this change the way that we're building our products then our approach to getting our products out there?Rob:36:58Well, one of the, one of the things I'll start with is we're actually seeing our clients adopt analytics teams, analytics approaches, machine learning. there's a lot of, there's a lot of growth in that part of the industry. and they've gotten past the point where they don't believe that a predictive solution is the right solution. You know, with our ARLAS product, we're creating an analytics ready LAS dataset where we're predicting what the curves would look like, where there's currently gaps in the curve coverage. The initial problem the customers had was, do they believe that the data's accurate? We're starting to get past those kinds of problems. We're starting to get to the point where they believe in the solutions and now they're trying to make sure that they've got the right solutions to fit within their workflows in their organization. So I think the fact that they've actually invested in building up their own analytics teams where they've injected software engineering, geology and geophysics, a data science and kind of group them all together and carved them off, or they can focus on maybe solving 20% of the problems that they actually, attempt. That's kind of where the industry has gotten to, which means we now have an opportunity to help them get to those levels.Arvind:38:10You see that a change in conferences, and, meetings and symposiums that, like for example SEG Society of exploration geophysicists and, that, conference three years back there was one session about machine learning and last year, machine learning has the largest number of sessions in that conference. So you're looking at a rapid adaptation of a machine learning as a core technology in oil and gas and at least in subsurface, but most of them is at the very early phases, people are trying to solve the easier problem, the problem they can solve rather than the problem that need to be solved. So that's where there's a differentiation happening that everyone wants to work on machine learning and most of the people are actually taking solution to your problem rather than taking problem finding solution for a problem which is relevant. So,Rob:39:21I think that's pretty fair because,you've got to get some sort of belief internally and if you can prove that you've got kind of a before and after, here's what I did to make this decision or the wells that are drilled in the production I've got and here's what I predicted was going to happen. And you can start to see those two things align. Then you start to get belief in something. If you just use something that's predictive only and you've got nothing to compare it to, it may be the right solution. But do you have the belief that your company is going to run with it? So that's why I think we're starting to see them solve problems that we know can be solved initially rather than the big problem of say, if I shoot seismic here, I can predict how much oil I'm going to produce. That's a big problem and it's at different resolutions and scales than we believe we can solve and, and be definitive about it today. but I think that, I think I agree with you that they're, they're really focused on, on proving that this technology, that analytics that AI/ML is going to work for the problems that they know about.Arvind:40:24Agreed only up to a point is that, the reason and why I think it ML/AI solutions are different is because, in physics, one of our basic assumption is that, if we solve a toy problem, you can scale the same way is the same solution will apply on a bigger problem. That's not the case for machine learning solutions. The solution that is applicable for a toy problem is not going to scale. You need to actually retrain the data and the solution becomes different as the scale of the problem increases. So although it's, interesting to see that a lot of a small problem are very easy problem people are taking to- people are solving a lot of easy problem using machine learning. To show that machine learning works, that's good. But to truly take advantage of machine learning, you have to actually solve, try to solve one of the complex problem because you already have a solution for those easy problems.Arvind:41:40Why do we need machine learning? So for example, ARLAS is a good example. Our analytic ready LAS in which we are predicting well logs from the available, well logs. Now if I have only one well, or a few wells then I actually want my petrophysicist to go through the physics based modeling and solve that problem. I don't need AI to solve that problem. I have actually solutions which works there. If the solution that I need is that how to solve this problem on a scale of Permian basin or a scale of U.S. So like what we have done for ARLAS that the first basin we started was Permian is where we took all the data that we have as a training data or actually a good portion of that data as a training data set. We build that model, which is actually based in scale model that can actually ingest all the like 320,000 wells we have. So we used thousands and thousands of well as a training build a very robust model to actually solve that problem and now that solution is available for the whole basin. That's the kind of solutions that are problem that AI is good at solving and has actually best potential not for solving few wells. Learning about AI by solving a few wells is great, but as a product or as a true application of AI, we need to actually look at tackling the big problems.Rob:43:11Yeah, I agree. There's been a lot of, shall we say analytics companies that come out with a claim of being able to perform some sort of machine learning basis and they've got a great interface and everything looks really good. And the story behind it is that it's been taught on five wells or 10 wells in our learning set was in the tens of thousands of wells, which is why I believe in the data set that we've built.Arvind:43:40At a very high level, machine learning is like teaching a kid, like someone has come out of graduate school and they want to actually learn something and you are showing them this is how we actually do. The more things they see, the better they will get, the more experience they will have and the better their capability or work will be. So it requires the, the whole concept of machine learning or AI is that you want to actually train with massive amount of very high quality data set and that actually solves more complex problems.Erica:44:18How do you discipline data?Arvind:44:22So you are saying that did- have you talked to our lead data scientist and he calls him to himself a data janitor, that most of the time he spent is cleaning of the data and organizing the data so that he can actually do the high quality like the machine learning AI work. So if he spends his time like out of a hundred hours, 60 or 70 hours- so he's actually organizing, categorizing data set so that he can do the fun stuff in the last 30 40 hours. I mean that's actually, that's better than a good, most of the places where people spend 90 hours doing the curation and 10 hours doing the fun stuff. And that was one of the reasons why we had to build the data lake because one of the thing is that we need all the data to be readily available in a kind of semi usable format that I don't need to spend time learning about the 2003 data is different than 2015 data versus 2018 data.Arvind:45:34I need to actually consume it as one big dataset. So last whole year we spend actually considerable, considerable amount of time and effort in building our data lake in which we actually took all of our commercial legacy, data set and moved it on cloud. The two things that we did is one we standardized the data set so that lead data scientists don't have to spend on doing janitorial of data janitorial work and a second is creating metadata. So what Metadata is that aggregate information.Arvind:46:06For example, Arvind Sharma what is the Meta data about Arvind Sharma um, that he is five feet 10, I don't have a lot of hair. (Laughter) He drives some car and he, he has gone to- he has a PhD like so some aggregate information like out of her, like rather than cell by cell information about Arvind, what is the minimum, set of aggregate information that you can use to define Arvind. So that's the metadata about any data set. So what we did when we are moving this a massive amount of data set into our data lake for each of these data set, we extracted this aggregate information that where it was recorded, when it was recorded, what are the basic things done to this data set? What is the maximum amplitude in this volume? What is the minimum amplitude in this volume? What does the average amplitude in this? So those things we actually use it because a lot of analytics is that some of the higher level analytics will be about integrating the information about data set, like Facebook uses information about people to make some of the decision. We are not that creepy as that Facebook, but (laughter) it's, it's like taking the information about the data set and actually learning creating knowledge about the basin.Rob:47:37It's interesting when you were talking about the data janitorial work and how we've kind to standardize our data set on the, on the cloud because it kind of brings it full circle back to something you said early on. And that was that we want our customers to be able to get to that decision making point sooner without having to do all that data, janitorial work. I've been going to data management conferences for 25 years and I hear the same thing every year for 25 years. I spend "fill in the blank" percentage of my time, 60 70, 80% of my time looking for data and the remainder are actually working with it. That's what an analytics ready data set it's going to allow us and our customers to be able to do is not have to do all that janitorial work, but actually get to the point where I can actually start interpreting what that data means to me to make decisions.Erica:48:30So looking towards the future of the industry, do you think we're going to continue to ramp up in terms of speed and getting to the good stuff, the fun part? Do you think that's going to continue to logarithmically increase?Rob:48:44Probably faster than we can ever imagine. I think the, I think the change that we saw with companies moving to the cloud companies going toward, service based solutions, companies moving toward high volume, normalized consistent datasets, all of these things have been moving at light-light speed compared to what they were, the, the past 25 years. Up until today, every day about probably about every three weeks. We basically, have got some new technology that's been released that we can start adopting and putting into our workflows that wasn't there three weeks, three weeks prior, open source. It comes back to that topic as well. More and more of these tech firms are putting the data out as open source means we could leverage it and get to solutions faster. So to answer the question, absolutely faster than we can possibly imagine.Erica:49:28Well, awesome. I cannot wait to get to this future, with both of you.Erica:49:41Well, thank you so much for talking with us today. Being part of our first episode of Beneath the Subsurface, it was an absolute pleasure. If our listeners want to learn more about what TGS is doing with AI, you can visit TGS.com You can visit our new TGS.ai platform and, we'll have some additional show notes on our website, to go along with this episode.Arvind:50:06Thank you Erica.Rob:50:07Yeah, thanks a lot. I appreciate it.Conclusions and plugs:Check out the newly launched tgs.ai to dig deeper in to the data with subsurface intelligence. Gain detailed subsurface knowledge through robust analytics with our integrated data and machine learning solutions at tgs.ai Discover Geoscience AI solutions, Cloud Computing, Data Management, and our Data Library. Learn more about TGS at tgs.com

Addiction: #addiction #addict #Jesus #love #prisonbreak #anonymous #healing #sin #socialissuesPrison Break: Part 3: Anyone AnonymousSpringcreek Church | Senior Pastor Keith Stewart10-07-18So far in this series, we've explored the nature of addiction and dared to ask of ourselves, “Has my problem crossed a line and become an actual addiction?” In last week's message, we learned about Jesus' love for the addict, the broken, and the shamed. There is no pit so deep the love of God can't reach. This coming weekend, we'll learn about the healing path for addicts and discover the transformational truths needed to break free from addiction, sin, resentment, and grief. What heals the addict heals us all.

Let me ask you all a question. How much weapons-grade nuclear material do you think it would take to level a city the size of San Francisco? How many of you think it would be an amount about the size of this suitcase? OK. And how about this minibus?0:33All right. Well actually, under the right circumstances, an amount of highly enriched uranium about the size of your morning latte would be enough to kill 100,000 people instantly. Hundreds of thousands of others would become horribly ill, and parts of the city would be uninhabitable for years, if not for decades.0:56But you can forget that nuclear latte, because today&`&s nuclear weapons are hundreds of times more powerful even than those we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And even a limited nuclear war involving, say, tens of nuclear weapons, could lead to the end of all life on the planet.1:20So it&`&s really important that you know that right now we have over 15,000 nuclear weapons in the hands of nine nations. And if you live in a city or near a military facility, one is likely pointed right at you. In fact, if you live in any of the rural areas where nuclear weapons are stored globally, one is likely pointed at you.About 1,800 of these weapons are on high alert, which means they can be launched within 15 minutes of a presidential command.1:59So I know this is a bummer of an issue, and maybe you have that -- what was it? -- psychic fatigue that we heard about a little bit earlier. So I&`&m going to switch gears for just a second, and I&`&m going to talk about my imaginary friend, who I like to think of as Jasmine, just for a moment.2:16Jasmine, at the age of 25, is part of a generation that is more politically and socially engaged than anything we&`&ve seen in 50 years. She and her friends think of themselves as change agents and leaders and activists. I think of them as Generation Possible. They regularly protest about the issues they care about, but nuclear weapons are not one of them, which makes sense, because Jasmine was born in 1991, at the end of the Cold War. So she didn&`&t grow up hearing a lot about nuclear weapons. She never had to duck and cover under her desk at school. For Jasmine, a fallout shelter is an app in the Android store. Nuclear weapons help win games. And that is really a shame, because right now, we need Generation Possible to help us make some really important decisions about nuclear weapons.3:10For instance, will we further reduce our nuclear arsenals globally, or will we spend billions, maybe a trillion dollars, to modernize them so they last throughout the 21st century, so that by the time Jasmine is my age, she&`&s talking to her children and maybe even her grandchildren about the threat of nuclear holocaust? And if you&`&re paying any attention at all to cyberthreats, or, for instance, if you&`&ve read about the Stuxnet virus or, for God&`&s sake, if you&`&ve ever had an email account or a Yahoo account or a phone hacked, you can imagine the whole new world of hurt that could be triggered by modernization in a period of cyberwarfare.3:54Now, if you&`&re paying attention to the money, a trillion dollars could go a long way to feeding and educating and employing people, all of which could reduce the threat of nuclear war to begin with. So --4:08(Applause)4:11This is really crucial right now, because nuclear weapons -- they&`&re vulnerable. We have solid evidencethat terrorists are trying to get ahold of them. Just this last spring, when four retirees and two taxi drivers were arrested in the Republic of Georgia for trying to sell nuclear materials for 200 million dollars, they demonstrated that the black market for this stuff is alive and well. And it&`&s really important, because there have been dozens of accidents involving nuclear weapons, and I bet most of us have never heard anything about them.4:48Just here in the United States, we&`&ve dropped nuclear weapons on the Carolinas twice. In one case, one of the bombs, which fell out of an Air Force plane, didn&`&t detonate because the nuclear core was stored somewhere else on the plane. In another case, the weapon did arm when it hit the ground, and five of the switches designed to keep it from detonating failed. Luckily, the sixth one didn&`&t. But if that&`&s not enough to get your attention, there was the 1995 Black Brant incident. That&`&s when Russian radar technicians saw what they thought was a US nuclear missile streaking towards Russian airspace. It later turned out to be a Norwegian rocket collecting data about the northern lights. But at that time, Russian President Boris Yeltsin came within five minutes of launching a full-scale retaliatory nuclear attack against the United States.5:47So, most of the world&`&s nuclear nations have committed to getting rid of these weapons of mass destruction. But consider this: the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, which is the most widely adopted arms control treaty in history with 190 signatories, sets no specific date by which the world&`&s nuclear-armed nations will get rid of their nuclear weapons.6:16Now, when John F. Kennedy sent a man to the moon and decided to bring him back, or decided to do both those things, he didn&`&t say, "Hey, whenever you guys get to it." He gave us a deadline. He gave us a challenge that would have been incredible just a few years earlier. And with that challenge, he inspired scientists and marketers, astronauts and schoolteachers. He gave us a vision. But along with that vision,he also tried to give us -- and most people don&`&t know this, either -- he tried to give us a partner in the form of our fiercest Cold War rival, the Soviet Union. Because part of Kennedy&`&s vision for the Apollo program was that it be a cooperation, not a competition, with the Soviets. And apparently, Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet Premier, agreed. But before that cooperation could be realized, Kennedy was assassinated, and that part of the vision was deferred.7:15But the promise of joint innovation between these two nuclear superpowers wasn&`&t totally extinguished.Because in 1991, which is the year that Jasmine was born and the Soviet Union fell, these two nations engaged in a project that genuinely does seem incredible today in the truest sense of that word, which is that the US sent cash to the Russians when they needed it most, to secure loose nuclear materials and to employ out-of-work nuclear scientists. They worked alongside American scientists to convert weapons-grade uranium into the type of fuel that can be used for nuclear power instead. They called it, "Megatons to Megawatts." So the result is that for over 20 years, our two nations had a program that meant that one in 10 lightbulbs in the United States was essentially fueled by former Russian warheads.8:18So, together these two nations did something truly audacious. But the good news is, the global community has the chance to do something just as audacious today. To get rid of nuclear weapons and to end the supply of the materials required to produce them, some experts tell me would take 30 years. It would take a renaissance of sorts, the kinds of innovation that, for better or worse, underpinned both the Manhattan Project, which gave rise to nuclear weapons, and the Megatons to Megawatts program. It would take design constraints. These are fundamental to creativity, things like a platform for international collaboration; a date certain, which is a forcing mechanism; and a positive vision that inspires action. It would take us to 2045.9:15Now, 2045 happens to be the 100th anniversary of the birth of nuclear weapons in the New Mexico desert. But it&`&s also an important date for another reason. It&`&s predicted to be the advent of the singularity, a new moment in human development, where the lines between artificial intelligence and human intelligence blur, where computing and consciousness become almost indistinguishable and advanced technologies help us solve the 21st century&`&s greatest problems: hunger, energy, poverty,ushering in an era of abundance. And we all get to go to space on our way to becoming a multi-planetary species.10:03Now, the people who really believe this vision are the first to say they don&`&t yet know precisely how we&`&re going to get there. But the values behind their vision and the willingness to ask "How might we?" have inspired a generation of innovators. They&`&re working backward from the outcomes they want, using the creative problem-solving methods of collaborative design. They&`&re busting through obstacles. They&`&re redefining what we all consider possible.10:34But here&`&s the thing: that vision of abundance isn&`&t compatible with a world that still relies on a 20th-century nuclear doctrine called "mutually assured destruction." It has to be about building the foundations for the 22nd century. It has to be about strategies for mutually assured prosperity or, at the very least, mutually assured survival.11:08Now, every day, I get to meet people who are real pioneers in the field of nuclear threats. As you can see, many of them are young women, and they&`&re doing fiercely interesting stuff, like Mareena Robinson Snowden here, who is developing new ways, better ways, to detect nuclear warheads, which will help us overcome a critical hurdle to international disarmament. Or Melissa Hanham, who is using satellite imaging to make sense of what&`&s going on around far-flung nuclear sites. Or we have Beatrice Fihn in Europe, who has been campaigning to make nuclear weapons illegal in international courts of law, and just won a big victory at the UN last week.11:52(Applause)11:55And yet, and yet, with all of our talk in this culture about moon shots, too few members of Generation Possible and those of us who mentor them are taking on nuclear weapons. It&`&s as if there&`&s a taboo. But I remember something Kennedy said that has really stuck with me, and that is something to the effect that humans can be as big as the solutions to all the problems we&`&ve created. No problem of human destiny, he said, is beyond human beings. I believe that. And I bet a lot of you here believe that, too. And I know Generation Possible believes it.12:39So it&`&s time to commit to a date. Let&`&s end the nuclear weapons chapter on the 100th anniversary of its inception. After all, by 2045, we will have held billions of people hostage to the threat of nuclear annihilation. Surely, 100 years will have been enough. Surely, a century of economic development and the development of military strategy will have given us better ways to manage global conflict. Surely, if ever there was a global moon shot worth supporting, this is it.13:20Now, in the face of real threats -- for instance, North Korea&`&s recent nuclear weapons tests, which fly in the face of sanctions -- reasonable people disagree about whether we should maintain some number of nuclear weapons to deter aggression. But the question is: What&`&s the magic number? Is it a thousand? Is it a hundred? Ten? And then we have to ask: Who should be responsible for them? I think we can agree, however, that having 15,000 of them represents a greater global threat to Jasmine&`&s generation than a promise.14:00So it&`&s time we make a promise of a world in which we&`&ve broken the stranglehold that nuclear weapons have on our imaginations; in which we invest in the creative solutions that come from working backward from the future we desperately want, rather than plodding forward from a present that brings all of the mental models and biases of the past with it. It&`&s time we pledge our resources as leaders across the spectrum to work on this old problem in new ways, to ask, "How might we?" How might we make good on a promise of greater security for Jasmine&`&s generation in a world beyond nuclear weapons? I truly hope you will join us.14:48Thank you.14:49(Applause)14:53Thank you.14:54(App

Worship audio from March 4, Lent 3B. Bulletin here or below:Welcome to Shepherd of the Lakes! We’re here to shepherd Christ’s flock and seek the lost sheep by sharing the good news of Jesus Christ with all. Come, let us worship!For your convenience, in the back corner of the sanctuary there is a room for any parents with children in need of a quiet place. The restrooms are located on the lower level. Please ask if you have any further questions or concerns. Lord Jesus, zeal for your Father’s house consumed you. May that same fervor consume us also, who are your spiritual dwelling through faith, that we may offer the AMEN.Faith & Forgiveness:People are also warned that the term faith does not mean simply a knowledge of a history, such as the ungodly and devil have [James 2:19]. Rather, it means a faith that believes, not merely the history, but also the effect of the history. In other words, it believes this article: the forgiveness of sins. We have grace, righteousness, and forgiveness of sins through Christ.The person who knows that he has a Father who is gracious to him through Christ truly knows God [John 14:7]. He also knows that God cares for him [1 Peter 5:7], and he calls upon God [Romans 10:13]. In a word, he is not without God, as are the heathen. For devils and the ungodly are not able to believe this article: the forgiveness of sins. Hence, they hate God as an enemy [Romans 8:7] and do not call Him [Romans 3:11–12] and expect no good from Him. 26 Augustine also warns his readers about the word faith and teaches that the term is used in the Scriptures, not for the knowledge that is in the ungodly, but for the confidence that consoles and encourages the terrified mind.Apology to the Augsburg Confession, Article 1 (Concordia p. 43) Because He Knew: He Put His House in OrderJesus knew all along he was going to die. That was the eternal plan of the Father, that the holy Son of God would suffer and die for a world of sinners. ...In preparation for that day, Jesus cleansed the Temple during Holy Week, just as he did at the beginning of his ministry.How does the cleansing of the Temple guide our Christian lives & work today? OPENING HYMN: 401 – Your Works, Not Mine, O ChristLITURGY: Common Service with Holy Communion, p. 15Please rise.PRAYER OF THE DAY:M: Almighty God, look with favor on your humble servants and stretch out the right hand of your power to defend us against all our enemies; through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. C: Amen.The WordFIRST READING: Exodus 20:1-17The Law, given by the LORD our God, demands perfect obedience:Then God spoke all these words: 2I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, where you were slaves. 3You shall have no other gods beside me. 4You shall not make any carved image for yourself or a likeness of anything in heaven above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth. 5Do not bow down to them or be subservient to them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God. I follow up on the guilt of the fathers with their children, their grandchildren, and their great-grandchildren, if they also hate me. 6But I show mercy to thousands who love me and keep my commandments. 7You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not permit anyone who misuses his name to escape unpunished. 8Remember the Sabbath day by setting it apart as holy. 9Six days you are to serve and do all your regular work, 10but the seventh day shall be a sabbath rest to the LORD your God. Do not do any regular work, neither you, nor your sons or daughters, nor your male or female servants, nor your cattle, nor the alien who is residing inside your gates, 11for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. In this way the LORD blessed the seventh day and made it holy. 12Honor your father and your mother so that you may spend many days on the land that the LORD your God is giving to you. 13You shall not commit murder. 14You shall not commit adultery. 15You shall not steal. 16You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor. This is the Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God!SECOND READING: Romans 8:1-10The flesh has no strength to free itself from the condemnations of God’s law; but through Christ, God proclaims freedom:So then, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3Indeed, what the law was unable to do, because it was weakened by the flesh, God did, when he sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to deal with sin. God condemned sin in his flesh, 4so that the righteous decree of the law would be fully satisfied in us who are not walking according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5To be sure, those who are in harmony with the sinful flesh think about things the way the sinful flesh does, and those in harmony with the spirit think about things the way the spirit does. 6Now, the way the sinful flesh thinks results in death, but the way the spirit thinks results in life and peace. 7For the mindset of the sinful flesh is hostile to God, since it does not submit to God’s law, and in fact, it cannot. 8Those who are in the sinful flesh cannot please God. 9But you are not in the sinful flesh but in the spirit, if indeed God’s Spirit lives in you. And if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ, that person does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but your spirit is alive because of righteousness. THEME VERSE: John 3:14-15Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. Thanks be to God.GOSPEL READING: John 2:13-22Jesus is serious about his Word, his dwelling-place, and what goes on there:Glory be to you, O Lord!13The Jewish Passover was near, so Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and money changers sitting at tables. 15He made a whip of cords and drove everyone out of the temple courts, along with the sheep and oxen. He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those selling doves he said, “Get these things out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a place of business!” 17His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” 18So the Jews responded, “What sign are you going to show us to prove you can do these things?” 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” 20The Jews said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple! And you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When Jesus was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and what Jesus had said. This is the Gospel of our Lord Jesus.Praise be to you, O Christ!HYMN OF THE DAY: 456 – Forth in Your Name, O Lord, I GoSERMON based on John 2: Jesus Promises to Keep Setting His House in OrderCONFESSION OF FAITH: Nicene Creed, p. 31OFFERINGPRAYER & LORD’S PRAYERThe sacramentFor our Holy Communion practice, please see the purple sheet in the pew racks.COMMUNION LITURGY: p. 33DISTRIBUTION HYMN: 532 – God is Here! As We His PeopleSONG OF SIMEON: CW p. 24CLOSING HYMN: 530 – Hark! The Church Proclaims Her Honor THIS WEEKToday 2 Samuel 2 9:30 - Lent 3 Worship with Holy Communion 10:45 - Sunday School, Bible classMonday 2 Samuel 3Tuesday 2 Samuel 4 7 PM - CAP Class (Faith, Conversion)Wednesday 2 Samuel 5 5-6 PM - Small Catechism Class 6-6:45 PM - Lenten Supper 7 PM - Midweek Lenten WorshipThursday 2 Samuel 6 6 PM - ChoirFriday 2 Samuel 7Saturday 2 Samuel 8 9:30 AM - Bible Basics (Egg Bake...?)Sunday 2 Samuel 9 “Thank God for Coffee!” Sunday 9:30 - Lent 4 Worship 10:45 - Sunday School & Bible Class (Medical Directives & POA for Health Care)NOTESMidweek Lenten services continue - 6 PM meal, 7 PM worship.Catechism class 5-6 PM Wednesday.Rev. Curt Seefeldt will preach next Sunday & speak during Bible class on the topic of advance medical directives & Power of Attorney for Health Care.DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME NEXT WEEKEND. Spring ahead!Looking Ahead to Next Sunday:Theme Lent 4: Because He Knew, He Promised Salvation through FaithColor PurpleLiturgy Service of the Word, p.38Hymns 381, 427, 384, 748; CW Psalm 90Readings from John 3, Numbers 21, Ephesians 2Verse of the Day John 3:16Green Pastures with Jesus is the podcast from Shepherd of the Lakes Lutheran Church of Fairmont, MN. Here you’ll find a variety of segments to lead you to the green pastures of the Word of God, where our Good Shepherd feeds our faith.  Find us online: www.shepherdofthelakes.net or http://facebook.com/shepherdofthelakes Worship is Sunday mornings at 9:30 AM.Bible class & Sunday School follow at 10:40 AM.323 E. 1st St – Fairmont, MNpastorhagen@icloud.com or (507) 236-9572 iTunes & iPhone: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/green-pastures-jesus-shepherd/id1183522558?mt=2 Stitcher link: http://www.stitcher.com/s?fid=127180&refid=stprOr simply search for “Green Pastures with Jesus” in your podcast app. Intro & Outro courtesy of Koine - The Church Band. Check them out at www.koinemusic.com, or find them on iTunes & Amazon: Search for Koine.     

Let’s talk about chapter 11:17-19. King David is hiding from his enemies. He’s been fighting the Philistines with his army, and he’s thirsty. And here’s what the scripture says,”17David longed for water. He said, "I wish someone would get me a drink of water from the well that is near the gate of Bethlehem!" 18So the Three fought their way past the Philistine guards. They got some water from the well that was near the gate of Bethlehem. They took the water back to David. But David refused to drink it. Instead, he poured it out as a drink offering to the Lord. 19"I would never drink that water!" David said. "It would be like drinking the blood of these men. They put their lives in danger by going to Bethlehem." The men had put their lives in danger by bringing the water back. So David wouldn't drink it.” Have you ever been really, really thirsty? You’ve been working hard, out in the elements, doing manual labor with the sun beating down on you. You haven’t been able to stay hydrated because you just haven’t had access to water. Eventually, all you can do is think about how thirsty you are. You’re dry. You’re parched. You couldn’t spit if you wanted to. That’s how King David felt. Scripture says, “David longed for water.” I’ve been there. Here where I live in southern California, summers can be hot. A hundred and fifteen degrees is not at all unusual. And one of my day jobs requires me to work outside, with no shade, over cars and trucks that have been sitting in the sun. It’s not unusual for the surface temperature of those vehicles to hit 165 degrees. I know what it’s like to be thirsty. I’ve had many occasions to say, “Boy do I wish I had some water right now!” That’s what David did. I don’t think he said it to anyone in particular, he just said, “Man. A drink of water from that sweet, cool well by the gate of Bethlehem would be awesome right now.” And his three most loyal men heard him, so out of respect for their leader, they fought through enemy lines to get it for him! When they got back, what did David do? He wouldn’t drink it! He respected what it cost these men so much that he poured it on the ground as a drink offering to the Lord. It was an act of worship to God. These men sacrificed their own safety for the leader they loved, and David sacrificed the thing that he most wanted in the world at that time to the God that he loved. This is what a sacrifice is. Putting a buck in the offering plate is not a sacrifice for most of us. Have you ever made an offering to the Lord like David did, or his men? Think back to that time when you were really really thirsty. How much of a sacrifice would it be to pour water on the ground, knowing that there was no other water easily available? That’s huge. What David did was an enormous sacrifice of worship to God. When was the last time you gave an offering to God that cost you like that?

Let’s talk about chapter 11:17-19. King David is hiding from his enemies. He’s been fighting the Philistines with his army, and he’s thirsty. And here’s what the scripture says,”17David longed for water. He said, “I wish someone would get me a drink of water from the well that is near the gate of Bethlehem!” 18So...

Pastor Z. Legend May 4, 2014 Living My Truth 2 Corinthians 4:7-18 7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you. 13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God. 16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

"By the Grace of God" By Pastor Missy Jenson 2 Corinthians 4:5-18 The Message (MSG) 5-6Remember, our Message is not about ourselves; we're proclaiming Jesus Christ, the Master. All we are is messengers, errand runners from Jesus for you. It started when God said, "Light up the darkness!" and our lives filled up with light as we saw and understood God in the face of Christ, all bright and beautiful. 7-12If you only look at us, you might well miss the brightness. We carry this precious Message around in the unadorned clay pots of our ordinary lives. That's to prevent anyone from confusing God's incomparable power with us. As it is, there's not much chance of that. You know for yourselves that we're not much to look at. We've been surrounded and battered by troubles, but we're not demoralized; we're not sure what to do, but we know that God knows what to do; we've been spiritually terrorized, but God hasn't left our side; we've been thrown down, but we haven't broken. What they did to Jesus, they do to us—trial and torture, mockery and murder; what Jesus did among them, he does in us—he lives! Our lives are at constant risk for Jesus' sake, which makes Jesus' life all the more evident in us. While we're going through the worst, you're getting in on the best! 13-15We're not keeping this quiet, not on your life. Just like the psalmist who wrote, "I believed it, so I said it," we say what we believe. And what we believe is that the One who raised up the Master Jesus will just as certainly raise us up with you, alive. Every detail works to your advantage and to God's glory: more and more grace, more and more people, more and more praise! 16-18So we're not giving up. How could we! Even though on the outside it often looks like things are falling apart on us, on the inside, where God is making new life, not a day goes by without his unfolding grace. These hard times are small potatoes compared to the coming good times, the lavish celebration prepared for us. There's far more here than meets the eye. The things we see now are here today, gone tomorrow. But the things we can't see now will last forever. The Message (MSG) Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

Herschel and Boss bark about Jake Fromm's departure, the addition of Jamie Newman, and what it all means for the Georgia Bulldogs football team. spk_0:   0:00Welcome to the inaugural edition of The Blawg The Dawgs Podcast. I'm Herschel Gurley. I'm here with my co-host, Boss Dawg - Boss, say hello to the people.spk_1:   0:27Hello and welcome to the inaugural edition and hope you'll will stay with us for this fun journey.spk_0:   0:33Yeah, me as well. So we're glad to be here. Just to kind of set this up. We just want this to be a forum where we can talk about topics that are relevant to UGA football, and all things Dawgs and kind of keep this conversation going, Not only during the season but in the off season. So, I guess it's smart to start with how we came to be fans of the Dawgs or follow the Dawgs. So, Boss, why don't you start with your Georgia genesis story and we'll go from there.spk_1:   1:02So for me, not a UGA alum, just a fan, But, uh, started in the '04 season, you were visiting me at at my alma mater for a clash of our two schools. And after that game was over, we just happened to be watching a Georgia game. We come from smaller college football schools. So, needed a big time college football fix, got interested in it from there and then really took off in Shockley's senior year and really got into it in the '05 season and then kind of went on from there. Been a Dawgs fan ever since. And I bleed red and black.spk_0:   1:39Highs and lows in that journey.spk_1:   1:41Yes, very much so.spk_0:   1:43I think everybody can appreciate that. So for me, similar, we both went to I-AA football program schools. So you kind of need a main attraction on Saturdays. I went to visit some friends in Athens and strictly went to party. Just happened to be the Auburn-Georgia game. Auburn team that had Jason Campbell and Cadillac and that whole crew. And it was the game Odell Thurman took one like 101 yards to the house, interception return right into the Georgia student section where we were sitting and I've been hooked ever since, man. So, maybe I need to get an Odell Thurman jersey. I feel like I'm selling that short by not rocking that. But that's kind of where it started for me. So yeah, well, we're gonna do what we can to give you the best insight we can from from our point of view. And hopefully everybody enjoys it. We look forward to hearing what you all think as well, So let's start at the top here. Obviously, the big story is Jake decided that he's going to forego his final year of eligibility and head to the NFL. I know from some of our conversations that was not a surprise to you, Boss. Why don't you elaborate on that a littlespk_1:   2:59Just from following the story all year and from listening to everything, talking to other people on forums, and reading everything. I feel like from the beginning of the season, his plan seemed to be that he was gonna go before the season. And I know that a lot of people seem to think that his struggles towards the end of the season were going to lead to him coming back. Unfortunately, his struggles during the season were kind of a genesis of the struggles of the whole offense. The entite offense struggled this season. All Dawgs can admit to that. I don't really feel like anything was going to change with Jake coming back. Could he improve his draft stock? Maybe. But Jake is not going to all of a sudden become a running quarterback. He's not gonna all of a sudden become super athletic. He's not gonna run a 4.4 40. Jake is who he is. He's a super intelligent, accurate passer. Most of the time when he has, you know, his number one available. As you and I have talked about for the person that I can most compare him to for the type of leader, the type of person, the type of quarterback he is, he reminds me the most of Troy Aikman. I know that the Troy Aikman-type quarterback doesn't really fit today's NFL, but that's the type of quarterback that he reminds me of. He throws to a spot, not to a person. He expects his receivers to be in in a certain spot. And that's how Aikman was. Aikman was also notorious for being terrible in bad weather because he had smaller hands. Also had great offensive line, great running game. So that's the type of quarterback he reminds me of.spk_0:   4:47To that point, I would just say, maybe Aikman is remembered differently if he played during the modern offenses of today, right? You know, maybe he looks different in a Sean Payton offense. Or maybe he looks different in a Josh McDaniels offense. Different times, different games.spk_1:   5:03Exactly, exactly, Aikman wasn't, you know, asked to throw the ball, 35 times a game. I don't think Aikman ever threw for more than 22 or 23 touchdowns because he wasn't asked to. He didn't need to for them to win and Jake's not gonna be a day one starter in the NFL, I don't think he's going to be asked to. Nor do I think he should be asked to. I think he needs to go to a place like the Saints, like the Patriots, to develop, but we're getting off topic. Sorry, rambling, but I feel that, you know, it wasn't a big surprise to me. I feel like his plan all along was to go to the league. And I don't feel like his struggles deterred him very much. Because of the things that I said, I don't think he's gonna be able to improve on them by coming back to UGA for a season. I think we would see the same things, his numbers may improve, but I don't think that you're gonna see his big changes. His strengths are still going to be his strengths and his weaknesses are still gonna be his weaknesses.spk_0:   5:54Yeah,  and I think as we talked about a lot over the course of season, I was the exact opposite of you. I was shocked when the news came out. Obviously, it dropped the same day as the Cade Mays stuff. So that was the first news story that kind of popped up on my Twitter feed. But then I saw Jakes announcement and I 'bout fell off my chair. I just, he always struck me as a four-year guy. And maybe I was just being idealistic about that. I just thought based on his trajectory, he just reminded me, in so many ways, of Aaron with wanting to come back, wanting to finish. But I do think there were some things that happened near the end of the year that gave me a little bit of pause. It hasn't really been talked about officially, anything about it. But you just can't convince me that that injury scare during the SEC Championship didn't kind of cloud his mind a little bit and get him thinking, it could happen that quick. And if that does happen, what is the future moving forward? I mean, I certainly agree with you that he's not gonna change his profile any. He's gonna be who he is, which I certainly think he's an NFL quarterback, and I think he will get drafted. Absolutely. But, he obviously got the draft grade he felt comfortable with, the grade he had told himself that was gonna be acceptable for him to leave, and he rolled with it, and I don't think anybody faults him for that. And I think everybody will remember him for what he is and what he was. And that's a Damn Good Dawg. So, obviously we wish Jake the best and he'll be great and we'll keep rooting for him, whatever jersey he ends up being in. But obviously, with him leaving it left a big hole in that quarterback room. And the smoke had been pretty much since the SEC Championship that the coaching staff had been talking with different transfers. And finally, it comes through that Jamie Newman has has signed with the Dawgs, which, if you follow college football at large, you know he played at Wake Forest, in Dave Clawson's offense. They did some big things this year. What are your thoughts on that transfer, Boss? How do you think he's gonna look in a Georgia offense next year?spk_1:   7:51Well, I think he's going to fit what the transition of the offense is going to look like. I think that bringing in this type of quarterback really shows that Kirby is hopefully going to take his imprint off the offense and just let the offense be and, you know, let it evolve into the modern college style. But, boy, as much as I love the '17 team, I feel like for Kirby, the worst thing that happened was maybe getting so close to the title and not winning. And honestly, I think that the worst thing would have been for the evolution of the program would have been if Kirby and the Dawgs would have won the '17 title because the game has moved past that style of football. There's no longer games where you can win throwing for 41 yards a game or throwing a limited amount of passes, such as when Georgia throttled Tennessee in '17 41-0. There just isn't games like that anymore, unless you're playing a lesser opponent. College simply doesn't work that way anymore. You have to be able to throw the ball and you have to go throw the ball downfield. Newman's biggest strength, everybody talks about his legs and how he's gonna bring a running element, Jake could run the ball. Jake, for whatever reason, this year they chose not to run the football, and I think the biggest reason that no one ever talks about. look who was behind Jake this year. As much as everybody talked and raved about Stetson Bennett - I don't think that the coaching staff trusted Stetson enough to let Jake run the football and risk injury. That's just my opinion.spk_0:   9:30The transfer shows that, right? I think their pursuit of transfer options from the portal showed that because if if they had felt confident with Stetson Bennett, then they would have said this is gonna be Stetson's show. We're gonna let him roll and go with it. And I do think it is very telling, 'cause I know folks have talked a lot about, well, what about, you know, D'wan Mathis, which, obviously, with this health situation, I think it's too soon to even consider him for that role. Now, I think maybe he could evolve into that one day. But, they know they don't have a Jake Fromm on that roster who could walk in as a freshman and capably lead that team. And I think it also shows they have urgency with the defense that's gonna come back. And I think that's why they went and got Jamie Newman. I mean, I think Jamie Newman allows them some things that even though he could move, I don't know that Jake was a play extender like Jamie Newman has the opportunity to be. And with all the edge talent they have coming back, whether it be George Pickens or Demetris Robertson or hopefully, you know, a healthy Dominic Blaylock and then all the freshmen that are coming in. You hope that there are some unplanned successes, right, where he moves a little bit, breaks the pocket, and these guys can kind of improvise, and we bust some more plays. It just felt like to me, the offense this year was very stagnant. Not a lot of big explosive plays. And I think that's part of the allure of Jamie Newman is that that could happen. I did see a stat that was really interesting. He had the second best tight window percentage in all of college football behind Joe Burrow, which, I think all Georgia fans are familiar with tight windows for receivers this year. So that was interesting to me, I was I was happy to see that.spk_1:   11:21Another thing that I go back to with the the legs aspect of it is the one thing that does excite me is the fact that the zone read this year was pretty much non-existent for Georgia, mainly because everyone knew that Jake was not gonna tuck it and run. He just wasn't gonna do it, whether it be because of the risk of injury or what have you. Everyone knew he was not going to run the ball. So everyone teed off on the running back every single time. The end crashed every single time. Because next season there will be the threat of the run, I think that this year Georgia will be more confident with the quarterback room. Now you'll still have Stetson Bennett. Hopefully, you'll have a healthy D'wan Mathis. You'll also have the incoming freshman Carson Beck. It'll be a much more competitive quarterback room behind Jamie Newman, as opposed to behind Jake from this past year.spk_0:   12:15Absolutely. I think I think there's some validity to that. I think obviously the hope is that Jamie stays healthy all year and kind of takes the mantle of the starter and runs with it. Obviously, that's what's best for the team and they get some rhythm and they roll, man. So I'm looking forward to seeing it. It makes the spring game, I think, a lot more intriguing because you kind of get to see a new guy. It sort of reminds me of the two spring games with Jake in '17 and then Justin in '18, their first spring games. Kind of getting to see what the new guy looks like and and where all that sits. So that'll be fun. Come mid-April, I'm seeing they're projecting like April 18th for G-Day, even though currently unannounced. But that's the projections, so that'll be great. Hopefully they'll be on ESPN or the SEC Network, everybody can check that out. One final note on Jamie Newman. Boss and I are big fans of this company in Nashville called Seven Six Apparel. Seven Six released a shirt shortly after Jamie's announcement that he was going to be a Dawg that was just the word "Newman" across the front in the Seinfeld TV show font, which I thought was fantastic. And, just a postscript to that, I was listening to Seth Emerson a couple days after that, and he dropped this nugget about Wayne Knight, the guy who played Newman on Seinfeld, is actually a UGA grad. So, love that. He went to Cartersville High School, the same high school that Trevor Lawrence went to and played football there, actually. I think the the marketing department, sports marketing department, with UGA Athletics is really dropping the ball if, for homecoming, they don't have Wayne Knight come on campus and do the coin flip or something like that. That would be an epic picture of Jamie and Seinfeld's Newman standing beside each other holding the game ball, or something like that, would just crack me up.spk_1:   14:00I think that would be a great chance for the fans this year to get a you know, a Newman chant going or something like half the stadium do "New" the other half do "Men." I think that'd be a great chant this year.spk_0:   14:15Yeah, I'm here for that, I'm here for that. All right, we'll transition away from the quarterback. Let's talk about an area that maybe folks don't really highlight, an area that's maybe not as sexy, but certainly there's a couple of big holes there, with Charlie Warner and Eli Wolf leaving after graduation, news came out that the Dawgs added Tre' McKitty from the transfer portal, was the tight end at FSU, which is obviously great, especially with the news of Darnell Washington coming. And they kind of get two big guys that can catch the football out there. What do you think there, well, let's let's just stay with Tre', what do you think Tre's addition could mean to the offense and to the team?spk_1:   14:50Well, Tre's edition also signifies the change in offensive philosophy because he is more of your pass-catching tight end. You know, bring in an Eli Wolf last year, you know, signified more of your status quo. He was more of your run blocking tight end, and Eli Wolf when he came in last year, was PFF's third highest rated run blocking tight end the year before in 2018, of I remember correctly, something like that, he was really high up there. So as tight ends go, when he was at Tennessee, bringing him in meant more of you know he's been brought in as a run blocker. Now, he really contributed as a pass catcher in certain games as well. But I feel that bringing in McKitty really shows that the transition to the different style of offense that Georgia is going to run. McKitty is most famously known for that weird play for Florida State last year, where he would happen to be the unfortunate person that was standing backwards in the formation. Watch this guy's film guys. He is a very, very athletic, tight end. He's like 6'4, 245, can run. He is a mismatch for most linebackers. Unfortunately for Florida State, he just didn't have anyone to throw him the ball. I feel like, you put him with Darnell, and if nothing else, it gives us a veteran player that you know, has played in college football and knows the ropes. That kid, if nothing else, gives Darnell Washington a leader for a year, has another guy there for a year to at least help him in some way. Show him the ropes because Washington is gonna be several thousand miles away from home. You know, learning not only learning in the college game, but learning the college life so that could be a big transition for a kid, especially that far away from home.spk_0:   16:45Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the point about the transition in the offense to more of a pass catching offense. I noticed multiple people say, which is funny - Coach Richt said it when they interviewed him about Tre' McKitty - but the buzz word that tells you that he's not a run blocker, people keep saying he's a "willing run blocker", meaning he's a team guy and will do it if asked to, but that ain't why he's on the roster. Just cause he's a "willing blocker", that doesn't always mean that he's able. So I thought that buzzword's been funny. Willing blocker? Um, yeah, he'll get in your way. He'll take up some space. But he's not gonna be having a lot of pancakes on the stat sheet. I do think your point is, is relevant about the fact that he can catch the football, that he will be a target. I do think one of the undersold stories in the regression of the offense this year was the absence of Isaac Nauta. You know you say what you want about Isaac, but he he was somebody the defense at least had to gameplan for from a vertical perspective, so he could occupy the safety, keep them away from, you know, doubling up on the outside receiver. That is just not something that was there this year. Charlie and Eli did just fine, but I wouldn't call either one of them a vertical threat or somebody you had to really, really game plan for up the seam. And I think that Tre' and Darnell will both provide that. So it may create some windows for open receivers that weren't there, just based on the level of athlete that's gonna be at the position. I think the other thing it does, is it really makes for some intriguing options offensively to try and scheme some guys open because you're gonna have two guys that are, from a roster perspective, tight ends, but may be able to move around and do some things, whether it be crossing routes or quick digs that you just wouldn't otherwise see from a traditional tight end, especially in that SEC build. So, I think it's exciting. It's always good to see guys that have one final bite at the apple, that last transfer year, choose to come play for Georgia. So I'm excited to see what Tre' does, and, uh, you know, hopefully he puts up video game numbers and gets drafted and rolls on. So I'm excited to see that.spk_1:   19:03There's also one other thing about Tre' before we move on. You know, we really have no idea what Georgia has in Fitzpatrick and Goede at this point. And it has come out that Goede is going to play baseball in the spring.   spk_0:   0:00I saw that. spk_1:   19:18So with that happening, he's gonna miss, you know, probably the majority of spring practice, the majority of spring meetings. I mean, that takes out that's what, four months, depending on how far Georgia goes. Hopefully they go to the College World Series. But that takes out another four or five months that he's gonna be away from football. And you know, that's time away that he could be, bulking up and developing as a tight end for Georgia. So that makes this McKinney transfer all the more important for the beginning of the season.spk_0:   19:50Yeah, I will say, postscript on that, I did see a note, some further depth on that. Apparently, he will be with the baseball team until spring practice officially begins, and then he will stay with the football team through the G-Day game, and then he'll go back to the baseball team. But I still think your point is valid because even not being in that regular football mode, whether it be in the lead up to spring practice or post spring practice, you know, I think it matters. I think also to there were some durability concerns with both of them last year. So just the fact that the the tight end room is buttoned up with two guys, and two bigger guys, I think will be great for the composition of the offense and the things that it will allow them to do schematically. So, yeah, that's a great point. So let's finish up with, I just want to talk about the defensive returns because obviously, the lack of success we had keeping people on the offensive side, the inverse occurred on the defensive side with big names that came back. Rat Trap Richie, Richard LeCounte Eric Stokes, Malik Herring and Monty Rice - all big gets to come back, and I feel like it's almost like getting four extra recruits in your class. And guys, you already know what you're getting from them. So, uh, how excited does that make you about the 2020 defense and kind of how things will look on that side of the ball?spk_1:   21:08Well, this defense was going to be stellar without these guys. I mean, just with the talent that was coming back without these four, then you throw in these four and it has a chance to be the best in the country again, points per game. It has a chance to be even better, as Kirby likes to say, havoc plays, you throw in LeCounte coming back, he's now gonna go back, and he's gonna go back into his spot. But he's gonna go into the J. R. Reed role as the leader of the defense. Stokes has really been, since he took over the starting role last year from Tyson, been the best defensive back on the field, and then this gives you three legitimate cornerbacks to just rotate as needed between him, Campbell, and Daniels. Then you throw in Tyrique Stevenson, who is gonna be really hard to keep off the field because any time he's on the field, he's all over the ball.spk_0:   22:11He's a grown man.spk_1:   22:12:ike I really don't know how you keep Tyrique - oh, yeah, he's freak. Monty's gonna be one of your starting inside linebackers, probably with Dean. And if anyone who's not excited about Dean, I don't know what's wrong with you. Like, honestly, I know he didn't flash his freshman year, but I keep going back to Roquan. Roquan wasn't Roquan his freshman year either? I mean, you saw flashes his sophomore year of what that player he could be. I feel like Dean has the instincts that every time he was on the field, you saw them. But he just wasn't physically there because he got hurt the beginning of the year with a high ankle sprain and just wasn't ready. He didn't really fully recover from that until the end of the season, and by that point, Tae, you couldn't take Tae off the field because he was all over the place and he just earned it. And you're not gonna take Monty off the field because he's really your best linebacker. Malik. Every year you keep saying this is the year for Malik and realistically, I mean, this is his last year, so this has to be it. I feel like Malik could have the type of year that Tyler Clark did last year. Tyler Clark was expected his junior year to really have that big year and didn't. But then his senior year, he comes back and he does have a much more productive year. Still not as good a year as everyone expected his junior to be, but a much more productive year. And you fit more into the team mold of what you know he was expected to do. And he had a huge year, boosted his draft stock. I expect the same thing with Malik Herring next year. Another guy that's not on this list that wasn't mentioned, that kinna just goes by the wayside 'cause he got redshirted and kind of got lost in the shuffle, Julian Rochester. I mean, he's our, you know, he really is the only other guy because we have so many new guys. We lost, I think, five guys graduated this year from the defensive line. Him and Malik and Jordan Davis are now the leaders of that defensive line group, and everybody else is pretty much a pup, even though Jordan Davis might be the largest pup I have ever seen. I still feel that, you know, Julian, if even if it's not his play on the field, shows it his leadership and you know hey, this is the right way to do it is gonna be invaluable for the defense.spk_0:   24:38I thought that was a big time chess move by Kirby to I mean, you could tell that was deliberate. I know they kept saying it's because of the ACL, hee's not quite there, and blah blah blah. But come on, man. He looked at the depth chart. He knew that the way things were going what the tea leaves read. So I thought that was, he played that beautifully because the games he did play in were all big games. And then, hey, gets to come in and fill some spots there in the middle and I mean, you know, we say that Julian may just be kind of a contributor type, but we don't know that. e may come out and have a monster year. And to your point about Malik. I do think that's true. I do love me some Malik Herring. I think he could be such a stud. I wonder if, within that defensive scheme, you know, I think so much of Kirby's defense, and I thought this was so interesting about how they were all termed the "No Name Defense" this year. I do think there's something to that. I think Kirby's defense, and I've always thought this, is an assignment defense, It requires guys to play their assignment. I think it's why he has such a a love-hate relationship with Richard LeCounte. It's because he can see the tantalizing talent that Richard has. But he also knows that Richard has to play within the scheme, and I think you saw Richard do that over the back half of the season. And, boy, was it exciting to see. And it's exciting to think about what he'll do next year, and I agree with you. I think he does step into that leadership role that kind of goes out the door with J. R. And while we're talking about J.R., let's just also say, Damn Good Dog. Love me some J. R. Reed. What an addition from the transfer portal. I think he'll be one of those guys that gets remembered more fondly as the years go on. I think Richard has that opportunity. I think his narrative is great, too, because he kind of started the good momentum for Kirby's regime, right? I mean, he was the first recruit to say I believe in this guy and I'm coming and he's an in state guy, wearing the Santa outfit, promising all the Florida wins with Jake. I mean, Richard has the opportunity, if they have a special year next year, I think to really cement himself in Dawgs lore when it comes to a legacy conversation. So that's exciting and yeah, I agree with you. I think these are just additions, right? I think that defense was gonna be a monster next year, regardless, just because it played so many guys last year and was so deep, which I think was was valuable. And I think that'll show in spades next year when they come back, rocking and ready to go. Yeah, So I mean, I'm excited, I think with the additions in the transfer portal with what they've got coming back on defense, I think there's a lot to be optic optimistic about if you're Georgia fan for 2020. There's just, the schedule is tough because it's always tough in the SEC, but it's not that bad. I mean, I told you this last week, if you go through that schedule, outside of having to go to Tuscaloosa, do any of those teams really scare you? Is there a quarterback on that list that you really go, oh, boy, I feel like he might hurt our defense? I mean, I just I don't see it, man. If they can stay healthy, they're gonna be in a really, really good spot moving forward.spk_1:   27:47I agree, I just wish the season wasn't so far away.spk_0:   27:50I know it's terrible. And it's the worst time of the year. I was telling my wife this, and she's like, I don't care. But my baseball team is really bad right now. So it just makes the gap between the end of college football and  the start of college football excruciatingly long. So I am just counting down the days until September 7th in the Benz for them to put that whippin' on UVA. So, yeah, I don't know. You got any closing thoughts today?spk_1:   28:19I do want to make one comment on the Cade Mays transfer. Honestly, you and I have talked about it. Cade Mays for me, both of us really, you know, I'm not upset about him transferring. I'm upset, kind of the same way I was upset about when Fields transferred. Wasn't upset about Fields leaving, just, if you're gonna leave, just leave. Don't drag the university through the mud with it. This whole suit thing with his dad and you know I understand, if you're gonna file suit you have to do it within the two-year statute of limitations. I get that. But you know, this pinky obviously isn't hindering you, but so much, you know, you're able to go hunt and be able to post all these pictures on social media, talking about Kevin, his father, not talking about Cade. Talking about his dad doing all this stuff. You know, obviously losing the tip of your pinky finger is not hindering you but so bad. You really don't need to drag the university through the mud with a public suit. And it is public knowledge for those people out there who think that you know, the university or people are digging for information. It's not hard to find if you're typing Kevin Mays. It pops up on Google, just saying, so that's the only thing I'll say about it. I wish Cade the best in Tennessee. I hope that when the time comes, I hope he does well every other game, except when he plays Georgia. That's really my only opinion on Cade Mays, have nothing against him for wanting to go home and play with his brother.spk_0:   29:45Yeah, I'm right there with you on that. I mean, I think I think you know my thoughts on Cade. I think people that were acting like the sky was falling when it's announced that Cade Mays is leaving, I just kind of think, man, that they've recruited so well at that position, it's just that is not a loss where I feel some deep angst about not having him next year. And you know how him and his family choose to deal with that, that's their business. You know, I certainly have my opinion on it. I would have done it differently, but, you know, to each their own. I'm with you. I hope he has a great career at Tennessee. I hope he goes on and has a great NFL career.  I just hope that they get their butt stomped in when the Dawgs come to town. So that's kind of where I stand on it, yeah, I agree with you. Well, I just wanna say thanks to everybody for listening. Come back and listen with us next week, we're gonna release every Tuesday, give us a follow on the social media accounts. It's just @BlawgTheDawgs. That's Twitter, Instagram, @BlawgTheDawgs. That's A-W-G on Blawg and Dawgs. We will look forward to spending the weeks of the offseason with you and get everybody ready for the 2020 season. Like we'll say every week. Go Dawgs, Sic 'Em.spk_1:   0:00Go Dawgs.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy