Podcasts about Web Content Accessibility Guidelines

Send Everyday AI and Jordan a text messageWait.... Google has ANOTHER AI tool?

CEO and Creative Director at SeaMonster Studios, Wes Buckwalter manages a small team of geniuses, keeps them paid, and fights for their rights as employees of what he hopes is the best job they've ever had. He advocates for the creativity of my employees and contractors, managing day to day operations, finance, and client relations. SeaMonster Studios have delivered over 1500 websites to clients over the last 18 years. They are a proud Shopify Plus partner and have become a top-tier partner with several app developers within the Shopify ecosystem.Wes started out in the trenches, designing and building websites before a small screen had ever been considered and have continued to champion and pioneer skills in the web and ecommerce fields that gave him a start in this industry.In This Conversation We Discuss: [00:49] Intro[01:50] From early ecommerce venture to a thriving agency[03:19] Navigating the gray areas of ADA & WCAG guidelines[04:48] Balancing site compliance with brand aesthetics[06:06] Compliance as a continuous improvement process[08:08] Accessibility from different user perspectives[09:28] Starting accessibility with thorough site reviews[10:05] Preventing lawsuits with digital accessibility[11:25] Improving awareness on accessibility issues[12:19] Directing legal threats to small Ecommerce sites[14:02] The financial dynamics behind lawsuits[15:29] Parallels between tech fixes & construction audits[16:21] Addressing agency flaws by reviewing past work[17:14] Understanding varying WCAG compliance across states[18:34] Balancing agency & business' responsibility[19:47] Exploring limitations in automated accessibility [21:01] Managing compliance when stacking Shopify apps[22:07] Shopify's limits on compliance control[23:56] Using Shopify's flexibility while avoiding pitfalls[25:39] Combining AI tools and human testing for site fixes[27:26] Accessible Web for efficient compliance scanning[28:39] Restraints in plug-and-play accessibility tools[29:25] Critiquing overlay tools for accessibility issues[30:33] Image descriptions for better user navigation[31:56] Setting standards for product compliance & SEO[33:22] Free site review from SeaMonster StudiosResources:Subscribe to Honest Ecommerce on YoutubeFriendly, full-service digital agency offering data-driven strategy and development seamonsterstudios.com/Follow Wes Buckwalter linkedin.com/in/seamonsterwes/If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you left Honest Ecommerce a review on Apple Podcasts. It makes a huge impact on the success of the podcast, and we love reading every one of your reviews!

Digital accessibility is a critical but often overlooked aspect of content creation, especially for podcasters. Many content creators fail to consider the needs of those with visual, auditory, or cognitive disabilities, inadvertently excluding a significant portion of their potential audience.  In this episode, we sit down with digital accessibility expert Dominique Dunlop to uncover the importance of making your podcast and online presence accessible to all. Dominique shares practical tips and strategies that any podcaster can implement to ensure their content is inclusive and welcoming to listeners of all abilities.  Why digital accessibility is important for all users, not just those with visible disabilities. How to make podcast audio, transcripts, and social media posts more accessible. The one thing that makes a website truly inclusive is ensuring it is first accessible. About the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and how they provide a framework for digital accessibility. How to use alt text, camel case hashtags, and thoughtful emoji placement to improve accessibility. Why accessibility is an ongoing commitment, not a one-time fix, as technology and guidelines evolve. About getting a free website accessibility audit to identify quick and easy improvements.   Head to https://LeverageYourPodcastShow.com to read the blog >>>Start creating consistent authority-boosting content with less overwhelm using this 4 step system.  Get the Podcast Leverage System Training at https://www.leverageyourpodcast.com/free >>Learn 3 Ways To  Leverage & Repurpose Your Podcast Guest Interviews To Boost Authority, Visibility, Leads & Sales - Free Guide & Checklist https://leverageyourpodcast.com/guest  

Link to this episode's web page ----------------------- The Human Insight Summit (THiS) PROMO Code The Human Insight Summit (THiS) is headed to Austin, Texas, this October 28-30. THiS is our annual, in-person customer conference dedicated to helping organizations understand their customers by showing and sharing, first-hand, the possibilities of using human insight across the business. Get $100 off your registration with the podcast listener code: UNLOCKED. Learn more or register. ----------------------- Episode Description: In this enlightening episode of Insights Unlocked, host Nathan Isaacs sits down with Karen Hawkins, Principal of Accessible Design at Level Access, during the UXDX conference in New York City. Together, they dive deep into the world of digital accessibility, exploring why it remains a critical yet often overlooked aspect of design. Karen shares valuable insights on how companies can create inclusive digital experiences and the importance of accessibility in today's digital landscape. Key Themes & Takeaways: Introduction to Digital Accessibility: Karen introduces herself and her role at Level Access. The discussion opens with an overview of digital accessibility and its importance in ensuring everyone can execute tasks efficiently, regardless of their abilities or characteristics. Current State of Accessibility: Despite existing laws and guidelines, accessibility issues persist, particularly simple ones like contrast problems. Karen references Web Aim's annual survey, which highlights recurring accessibility issues on top websites. Challenges and Solutions: The need for both grassroots efforts and top-down support to drive meaningful change in accessibility. Importance of conducting audits focusing on people, processes, and tools to benchmark and improve accessibility. Setting realistic, incremental goals for continuous improvement in accessibility practices. Beyond Digital Products: Accessibility extends to organizational culture and practices, including hiring and travel policies. The discussion emphasizes that accessibility is a global issue, supported by laws like the European Accessibility Act and guidelines from the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Resources and Personal Responsibility: Karen recommends resources like the W3C's introductory courses and Web Aim for those looking to learn more about accessibility. The importance of individuals taking personal responsibility for creating accessible digital content within their organizations. Call to Action: Karen encourages listeners to connect with her on LinkedIn for further resources and insights on accessibility. Final thoughts on fostering a culture of inclusivity and accessibility in every aspect of digital and organizational practices. Connect with Karen Hawkins: LinkedIn: Karen Hawkins (Note: Ensure you find the right Karen Hawkins, not the romance novelist!) Additional Resources: W3C Introductory Course on Accessibility Web Aim

Joining Chris Adams today is Mike Gifford, an accessibility and open web veteran, to look at the drivers adopting digital sustainability in the industry, learn from the field of accessibility and inclusive design how we can further sustainable software development. Mike tells us about the wins from the accessibility movement that we can learn from in this engaging episode.

In today's episode, Lois speaks with Mitch Creedy, a digital accessibility consultant from Canada. Mitch talks about their background in digital accessibility, and the training they received through the Blind Institute of Technology, also called the BIT Academy. They also refer to the WCAG, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, as a tool that can be used by web developers wishing to make their work more accessible. The second half of the conversation revolves around the topic of bullying, both experienced within the workplace and in more casual and social interactions, where Mitch unpacks some experiences that they have encountered. *As a note: this conversation was recorded in December 2023 and, at one stage, Mitch refers to their decision to disengage from social media for a short time. I'm thrilled to let you know that they are back on socials and you can now connect with them there. Reach out to Mitch at: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Mitchk20 Blind Institute of Technology website: Podcast Image description: A person with short hair smiling at the camera. They are wearing a grey zip-up top with a high collar. The background is plain and white, providing a clear view of the person. I'd love to hear from you – contact me at Web: https://www.loisstrachan.com/ LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/lstrachan Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/loisstrachanspeaker This episode edited by Craig Strachan using Hindenburg PRO – find out more on Hindenburg.com Credits and music by Charlie Dyasi of Naledi Media.

Thu, 04 Apr 2024 05:35:51 +0000 https://omt-magazin.podigee.io/9546-neue-episode b96f831389daf3dda67d3093806b9487 ℹ️ Mihaela Sartori beim OMT ℹ️ OMT-Webinare ℹ️ OMT-Konferenz ℹ️ OMT-Agency Day ℹ️ OMT-Tool Konferenz 9546 full no Anna Flimm, Mihaela Sartori

#298"One size bigger and red."Roundtable2023.04.13Dale learned a lot while editing this episode.She learned the board game ‘Spirit Island' is about spirits that protect an island, and she is pretty sure that this is the same premise as hit TV show ‘LOST'.She learns that CSS is not a programming language or a mark-up languageAnd she learns that CSS stands for Cascading Style SheetsShe learns that AAA games are easy (not sure why she struggles with them)That there are either wrong choices in skill trees OR it never really matteredAnd that Stephen wants to fight everyone on DiscordGood luck anyone who isn't a McGregor!Stephen is playing Spirit Island - Board Game GeekRa Ra Boom Trailer (from Max who schedules our interviewsTwin Cities Playtest is the 3rd Wednesday of the Month - EventbriteTwin Cities Playtest is also on YouTube - IGDA Twin Cities, YouTubeCSS9:47Mark LaCroixProgrammingIn this discussion Ellen mentioned accessibility standards for web contentWCAG (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines) - WikipediaMark asked if there is an ISO Standard for this, and there is! ISO 40500:2012There is also one for UI: ISO 30071-1Mark mentions that you should look up the 'Blink' tag, but Dale already did it for you, here.Unity Style Sheet (USS) - UnityThere is a USS Unity in Star TrekAnd Stephen mentions the Div-Div Crow, based on this webcomic.Skill Trees46:38Stephen McGregorGame Design

In this episode of The Consumer Finance Podcast, host, Chris Willis, is joined by Partners Kim Phan and Lori Sommerfield, to discuss recent developments related to website accessibility under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). In this episode, they explore the Department of Justice's proposed rule under Title II of the ADA, which seeks to improve state and local government website and mobile app access for individuals with disabilities, and the potential significance to the private sector. They also discuss the international World Wide Web Consortium's latest version of its Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG), 2.2, and the first working draft of WCAG 3.0. Tune in to learn more about these important updates and how they may impact your organization.

Digital Accessibility and Inclusion Making the Web a Better Place for All E21 In this episode of Changing the Perception of Blindness, host David Steinmetz explores digital accessibility with experts Kai Wong from Teladoc Health and Phil Yatvin from Level Access. They discuss the pivotal role of allies in fostering inclusivity for people who are […] The post Digital Accessibility and Inclusion Making the Web a Better Place for All E21 appeared first on Business RadioX ®.

RJJ Software's Podcasting Services This episode of The Modern .NET Show is supported, in part, by RJJ Software's Podcasting Services, where your podcast becomes extraordinary. We take a different approach here, just like we do with our agile software projects. You see, when it comes to your podcast, we're not just your editors; we're your collaborators. We work with you to iterate toward your vision, just like we do in software development. If you're ready to take your podcast to the next level, don't hesitate. Contact us at RJJ Software to explore how we can help you create the best possible podcast experience for your audience, elevate your brand, and unlock the vast potential in podcasting. Show Notes Welcome to The Modern .NET Show! Formerly known as The .NET Core Podcast, we are the go-to podcast for all .NET developers worldwide and I am your host Jamie "GaProgMan" Taylor. In this episode, I spoke with Dennie Declercq about accessibility, it's importance in modern application development, and how it's not just a case of adding ARIA tags to HTML elements. Developing your web applications with accessibility and all users in mind should be the default mode for all user interface developers; and that change needs to come from us: "And I don't have good eyes, so I have bad eyes. I'm not blind, b ut my eyes can be way better by example. That's the reason I don't drive a car. So thinking about this, "is a website for people at autism. it shouldn't be accessible on the other ways." It's just telling fairy tales to yourself. In fact, those fairy tales are not there because a lot of people on the spectrum have one or multiple additional, let's say, diagnosis. So really important to push back and say no. We need to make accessible websites for everybody. Also, for whatever case it is. I love all the things that you're saying in the last part, so I hope I checked them all" — Dennie Declercq In fact, in the time between recording this episode and it going live, version 2.2 of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines where published. At the time of recording this into (Oct 18th, 2023), version 2.1 is still the required standard for UK web applications, but it will be superseded by 2.2 by the time you hear this episode. So let's sit back, open up a terminal, type in dotnet new podcast and we'll dive into the core of Modern .NET. Supporting the Show If you find this episode useful in any way, please consider supporting the show by either leaving a review (check our review page for ways to do that), sharing the episode with a friend or colleague, buying the host a coffee, or considering becoming a Patron of the show. Full Show Notes The full show notes, including links to some of the things we discussed and a full transcription of this episode, can be found at: https://dotnetcore.show/season-6/breaking-barriers-unleashing-accessible-software-for-all-with-dennie-declercq/ Useful Links ddsoft WCAG Microsoft Accessibility Insights GitHub Action Microsoft Accessibility Insights Guide Dennie's Blog Supporting the show: Leave a rating or review Buy the show a coffee Become a patron Getting in touch: via the contact page joining the Discord Music created by Mono Memory Music, licensed to RJJ Software for use in The Modern .NET Show Remember to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or wherever you find your podcasts, this will help the show's audience grow. Or you can just share the show with a friend. And don't forget to reach out via our Contact page. We're very interested in your opinion of the show, so please get in touch. You can support the show by making a monthly donation on the show's Patreon page at: https://www.patreon.com/TheDotNetCorePodcast.

Kris Rivenburgh explains how learning WCAG can make you money whether you are apply for a job or selling a digital products. There are tremendous entrepreneurial and traditional career opportunities for those who learn the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Invest in WCAG training by taking my WCAG Course at https://WCAGCourse.com. #WCAG #WebContentAccessibilityGuidelines #WebAccessibility Do you have a question about ADA compliance for websites? Do you have a success story to share? Join our Reddit community at https://www.reddit.com/r/adabook. Kris designed the ADA Compliance Program as a done-for-you (DFY) service for website owners. The ADA Compliance Program audits and remediates your website for $4,999 (for most websites). Find out more at https://accessible.org⁠. Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at ⁠https://ADACompliance.net⁠. Would you like to learn the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? With Kris's WCAG Course, you can learn WCAG in three hours. There's a lesson with a plain English video explanation for every success criterion in WCAG 2.0 AA, 2.1 AA, and 2.2 AA. Sign up for Kris's WCAG Course at https://WCAGCourse.com. Kris created Audits 101 so that you can learn how to audit a website against the WCAG 2.1 AA technical standards. Learn how to conduct an accessibility audit at ⁠https://Audits101.com⁠. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/company/adabook⁠ ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh⁠ Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at ⁠https://accessible.org⁠. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at ⁠https://ADABook.com⁠. Transcript: https://adabook.com/learn-wcag-make-money/

Kris examines Shopify to see if there has been any progress in 2023 in terms of helping their customers (website owners) prevent ADA website litigation and thereby increasing access to people with disabilities to those websites. The findings: no accessibility statement is published on the homepage, overlay widgets / plugins are still featured on the app store, access to people with disabilities is not among the social causes listed, there are two guides on accessibility, and an accessibility policy as mandated for AODA compliance. Shopify website owners have been sued ad nauseam over website accessibility for years (most of my client calls are with Shopify customers) and yet the publicly traded company's response has remained weak at best. Here is the link to the Austen Allred Twitter thread on Shopify and ADA compliance after Austen's sister was sued: https://twitter.com/Austen/status/1486740992636030981 #ShopifyAccessibility #ShopifyADACompliance #Shopify Do you have a question about ADA compliance for websites? Do you have a success story to share? Join our Reddit community at https://www.reddit.com/r/adabook. Kris designed the ADA Compliance Program as a done-for-you (DFY) service for website owners. The ADA Compliance Program audits and remediates your website for $4,999 (for most websites). Find out more at https://accessible.org⁠. Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at ⁠https://ADACompliance.net⁠. Would you like to learn the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? With Kris's WCAG Course, you can learn WCAG in three hours. There's a lesson with a plain English video explanation for every success criterion in WCAG 2.0 AA, 2.1 AA, and 2.2 AA. Sign up for Kris's WCAG Course at https://WCAGCourse.com. Kris created Audits 101 so that you can learn how to audit a website against the WCAG 2.1 AA technical standards. Learn how to conduct an accessibility audit at ⁠https://Audits101.com⁠. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/company/adabook⁠ ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh⁠ Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at ⁠https://accessible.org⁠. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at ⁠https://ADABook.com⁠. Transcript: https://adabook.com/shopifys-social-activism-accessibility/

Kris Rivenburgh covers a Target full-time job post for an accessibility consultant with a potential $196,200 salary. This post highlights the need to assist the legal team on "investigations and questions related to digital accessibility compliance." Digital accessibility consultants are in demand and this Target job post demonstrates it. Whether you're looking for career opportunities or starting your own business, there is money in digital accessibility. Link to the job post: https://www.a11yjobs.com/jobs/25e9l-lead-accessibility-consultant-program-managerremote-or-hybrid-target #DigitalAccessibility #AccessibilityJobs #AccessibilityConsultants Do you have a question about ADA compliance for websites? Do you have a success story to share? Join our Reddit community at https://www.reddit.com/r/adabook. Kris designed the ADA Compliance Program as a done-for-you (DFY) service for website owners. The ADA Compliance Program audits and remediates your website for $4,999 (for most websites). Find out more at https://accessible.org⁠. Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at ⁠https://ADACompliance.net⁠. Would you like to learn the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? With Kris's WCAG Course, you can learn WCAG in three hours. There's a lesson with a plain English video explanation for every success criterion in WCAG 2.0 AA, 2.1 AA, and 2.2 AA. Sign up for Kris's WCAG Course at https://WCAGCourse.com. Kris created Audits 101 so that you can learn how to audit a website against the WCAG 2.1 AA technical standards. Learn how to conduct an accessibility audit at ⁠https://Audits101.com⁠. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/company/adabook⁠ ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh⁠ Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at ⁠https://accessible.org⁠. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at ⁠https://ADABook.com⁠. Transcript: https://adabook.com/target-196200-lead-accessibility-consultant-job/

What if you could get sued if your website is not low-carbon enough? What if you would be barred from many call for tenders if your digital services don't hit minimum sustainability requirements? Science-fiction? This is what people said on 5 May 1999 when the first version ever of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines was released by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). 20 years later, these pitfalls are day-to-day concerns for many digital companies and digital service providers. On August 31st this year, the W3C released its first ever Sustainability Guidelines (draft version). Ines Akrape and Lukas Mastalerz, two of its core contributors, share insider insights in this episode on how it will impact the way of working for millions of web developers, designers, ops and data folks. And why we will certainly not wait 20 years for this to happen… ❤️ Subscribe, follow, like, ... stay connected the way you want to never miss an episode!

20230902 Demand Our Access Originally Broadcasted September 2, 2023, on ACB Media 5   We discussed the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines.   Sponsored by Jonathan Simeone   Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

Kris interviews ADA defense attorney Richard Hunt on website accessibility litigation and asks Richard for responses to Reddit comments and questions on ADA compliance (subjects time stamped below). Richard Hunt is a Board Certified Civil Trial lawyer with 35+ years of trial experience in state and federal courts. Richard has a national ADA and FHA consulting and defense practice representing real estate developers, retailers, restaurants, shopping centers, banks, apartment owners, governmental entities, and others. Timestamps (linked to YouTube video): 0:00 Introduction 1:52 What people are not understanding about website accessibility and litigation 5:24 The latest in website accessibility litigation: Supreme Court grants certiorari on whether tester has standing to sue 7:40 How will plaintiffs lawyers respond if testers don't have standing to sue 9:42 The current level of litigation activity and what are the current settlement amounts 11:02 How California, New York, Florida, and Pennsylvania compare in general settlement amounts 12:07 Why it's so important to hire a defense attorney to represent you before responding to a demand letter or complaint 14:13 Why do plaintiffs lawyers file class action lawsuits over website accessibility and how likely is a class action to result from a lawsuit 15:48 Total cost of ADA website litigation 18:07 Cost if you settle your case right away 20:05 What happens if you ignore a demand letter or a complaint filed in court 23:04 What are the usual non-money settlement terms required by plaintiffs law firms 24:22 Is there any insurance that covers ADA website cases or website owners should look into 26:15 How important is getting a clean result on automated accessibility scans 28:27 Scans website owners should pay attention to 29:48 Reddit questions and comments 30:20 How likely is it that website accessibility lawsuits get thrown out (motions to dismiss) 32:55 Does documenting accessibility efforts help your defense 34:40 Is there a good plugin or tool for analyzing your website and bringing into ADA compliance 38:04 A friend advised me to ignore the ADA website lawsuit 41:02 How common is it for a business to be sued multiple times 42:52 Do plaintiffs lawyers think overlay widgets make a website ADA compliant 45:03 Can settling these cases set you up for more lawsuits 48:10 Richard has tremendous insight into ADA website litigation 49:49 Richard's contact information Watch my first interview with Richard Hunt: Inside Litigation: ADA Defense Attorney Richard Hunt on Website Accessibility Lawsuits, Settlements You can email Richard at rhunt@hunthuey.com. You can also find Richard online at: Law Firm Website: https://hunthuey.com Blog: https://accessdefense.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardmhunt #RichardHunt #ADADefenseAttorney #ADAWebsiteLawsuit Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your digital team. Your team can get started in minutes at ⁠⁠https://ADACompliance.net⁠⁠. Kris also created the WCAG Course. The ⁠WCAG Course⁠ explains the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (version 2.1 AA and version 2.2 AA) in practical, easy to understand language so your team can learn all of the different accessibility considerations. You can sign up now at ⁠https://WCAGCourse.com⁠. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/adabook⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh⁠⁠ Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at ⁠⁠https://accessible.org⁠⁠. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at ⁠⁠https://ADABook.com⁠⁠. Transcript: https://adabook.com/inside-litigation-richard-hunt-answers-faq-on-ada-website-compliance-lawsuits/

Kris Rivenburgh explains ADA website compliance in practical terms. ADA website compliance originates from ADA compliance or compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act which requires accessibility of public accommodations generally. Because the ADA was signed into law in 1990, it doesn't contemplate modern digital technology such as websites and mobile apps. The Department of Justice (DOJ) is the regulatory and enforcement agency behind Title II and Title III of the ADA. The DOJ's unofficial stance is ADA applies to websites. However, no official regulation has been published the DOJ that explicitly sets out exactly how to make a website ADA compliant. This stance has given rise to a cottage industry of litigation. Plaintiffs lawyers have literally filed over 10,000 complaints in state and federal court concerning website accessibility. It's estimated that over 100,000 demand letters have been sent to website owners including small businesses and large corporations. Because litigation is expensive, most cases settle. The two best practices for making a website ADA compliant are 1) WCAG conformance and 2) conspicuously publishing an accessibility statement. To prevent lawsuits, website owners must find and fix the accessibility issues that plaintiffs lawyers look for and claim in litigation. Sellers of website accessibility products and services aren't aligned with this and thus their offerings fall short in meeting the immediate needs of their clients and customers. This is why Kris created the ADA Compliance Course. The ADA Compliance Course is training for your web team that helps website owners strategically find and fix the accessibility issues that are most commonly claimed in litigation. #ADAWebsiteCompliance #ADACompliance #ADACompliant Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at ⁠https://ADACompliance.net⁠. Kris also created the WCAG Course. The WCAG Course explains the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (version 2.1 AA and version 2.2 AA) in practical, easy to understand language so your team can learn all of the different accessibility considerations. You can sign up now at https://WCAGCourse.com. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/adabook⁠ ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh⁠ Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at ⁠https://accessible.org⁠. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at ⁠https://ADABook.com⁠. Transcript: https://adabook.com/ada-website-compliance/

Kris's friend David joins show and asks questions about ADA Website Compliance as a small business owner (in California) who had never heard that you could be sued over website accessibility. David asks Kris about ADA compliance testers, web designer services, how much work goes into an audit, the ADA Compliance Course, prices, and Accessible.org website accessibility services. Timestamps (Linked to YouTube): 0:00 Introduction 1:10: Why would someone's website need to be ADA compliant? what happens if it's not and what is ADA website compliance? 3:24: Is someone purposely going through websites to sue them? 4:29: Will my website designer automatically make my website ADA compliant? 6:28: How do I make my website ADA compliant? What is the cost? 9:38: How much work are accessibility companies actually doing for an audit? 11:26: What does your ADA Compliance Course do vs. hiring a company? 14:26: I'm not tech savvy, can I hand your course over to my web designer? 16:15: How much does your course cost? 17:49: If my web designer works through your course, will this save me thousands of dollars and make my website ADA compliant? 19:50: Why is the ADA Compliance Course so cheap? 24:28: Are you available for consulting and other services? 29:26: Can I get better service through Accessible vs. the big companies? 31:28: The advantage of dealing with a small business 38:01: Can you handle everything from A to Z? #SmallBusinessOwner #ADAWebsiteCompliance #ADACompliance Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your digital team. Your team can get started in minutes at ⁠⁠https://ADACompliance.net⁠⁠. Kris also created the WCAG Course. The ⁠WCAG Course⁠ explains the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (version 2.1 AA and version 2.2 AA) in practical, easy to understand language so your team can learn all of the different accessibility considerations. You can sign up now at ⁠https://WCAGCourse.com⁠. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/adabook⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh⁠⁠ Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at ⁠⁠https://accessible.org⁠⁠. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at ⁠⁠https://ADABook.com⁠⁠. Transcript: https://adabook.com/small-business-owner-new-to-ada-website-compliance-asks-kris-questions/

Joel Ward is an Emerging Technology Manager at Booz Allen Hamilton who has been working within Web Accessibility since around the time Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act was enacted on August 7, 1998 and the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines came out (WCAG version 1.0 was published on May 5, 1999). Ward spoke on a XR Access Symposium panel discussion about Empowering the Workforce through Accessible XR, and also brought a pair of XREAL Air glasses with live captioning to show off the power of AR as an assistive technology to other attendees. I had a chance to speak with Ward about the pending work that has to be done in order to specify XR accessibility experimentation within government contracts. Right now XR accessibility is in a bit of a Catch-22, because if something is not specified within a contract to be worked on, then it most likely won't happen. However, XR Accessibility features and functionality are still too nascent to be clearly specified and scoping out within these contracts. As I covered in the unpacking of public policy and XR accessibility write-up of my interview with XR Association's Liz Hyman, then the emerging nature of XR technologies means that they're not clearly specified within legislation like Section 508 or the American's with Disability Act to be enforced. We talk what needs to be done at the federal government contracting level so that his group at Booz Allen Hamilton can have the freedom and resources to develop more XR Accessibility features that feeds into the type of Darwinian experimentation that Neil Trevett says is a crucial phase of the standards development process. This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon. Music: Fatality

Today's guest is Erin Perkins, founder of Mabely Q and Successible. We discuss Search Engine Optimization (SEO) and web accessibility for deaf-blind individuals.Connect with Erin: Social Media Accessibility ScorecardWebsiteInstagramThe Successible CommunityResources: WebAIM Accessibility: WCAG 2 ChecklistNVDA Screen Reader1. Erin Perkins shared her experiences as a deaf-blind person navigating the online world.Importance of accessibility beyond just websites.Current technology (and Ai) helps her stay connected.2. Erin interpreted SEO as writing content in a way it can be easily found on search engines.Benefits of alt text and image descriptions.Avoid strung together keywords that make no sense.3. Erin discussed her difficulties with platforms like Pinterest and Instagram due to their limited accessibility features.Platforms often don't consider accessibility during its initial stages.Accessibility can be costly to fix.4. How to use SEO elements for better accessibility:Use header tags (H1, H2, H3) correctTHE CAMPFIRE CIRCLE | Thought Leadership, Brand Storytelling & Linkedin MarketingGrow your business through brand storytelling and community building on LinkedIn. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify 25 Minutes of Unfinished Business, hosted by Alex BrayshawThe reason I've created Unfinished Business is because I'm passionate about business...Listen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifyIf you're looking for a unique, handcrafted way to spruce up your home or office, then Collage and Wood is the perfect place for you! We offer a range of beautiful wooden signs that are perfect for any occasion. Our talented team of artists will work with you to create a sign that perfectly suits your needs. So why wait? Visit Collage and Wood today!Support the showBe our (podcast) guest! Apply hereBook your $99 SEO Audit with Crystal!B's SEO Basics Checklistbrittanyherzberg.com / Instagram 10,000 Jasper words FREE!crystalwaddell.comGet the Show merch! Get Ocho: the best retirement info for entrepreneurs!Listen to the private podcast, SEO Shorts, for just $10/mo!

20230617 Demand Our Access Originally Broadcasted June 17, 2023, on ACB  Media 5   We discussed the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines.   Sponsored by Jonathan Simeone   Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

20230429 Demand Our Access Originally Broadcasted April 29, 2023, on ACB Media 5 We began with an update on Desiree's Air Carrier Access Act complaint. This is something you will want to hear. Time allowing, we discussed the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Sponsored by Demand Our Access

Dale learned a lot while editing this episode.She learned the board game ‘Spirit Island' is about spirits that protect an island, and she is pretty sure that this is the same premise as hit TV show ‘LOST'.She learns that CSS is not a programming language or a mark-up languageAnd she learns that CSS stands for Cascading Style SheetsShe learns that AAA games are easy (not sure why she struggles with them)That there are either wrong choices in skill trees OR it never really matteredAnd that Stephen wants to fight everyone on DiscordGood luck anyone who isn't a McGregor!Stephen is playing Spirit Island - Board Game GeekRa Ra Boom Trailer (from Max who schedules our interviewsTwin Cities Playtest is the 3rd Wednesday of the Month - EventbriteTwin Cities Playtest is also on YouTube - IGDA Twin Cities, YouTube CSS 9:47 Mark LaCroixProgrammingIn this discussion Ellen mentioned accessibility standards for web contentWCAG (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines) - WikipediaMark asked if there is an ISO Standard for this, and there is! ISO 40500:2012There is also one for UI: ISO 30071-1Mark mentions that you should look up the 'Blink' tag, but Dale already did it for you, here.Unity Style Sheet (USS) - UnityThere is a USS Unity in Star TrekAnd Stephen mentions the Div-Div Crow, based on this webcomic. Skill Trees 46:38 Stephen McGregorGame Design

Kris discusses two examples of hiding undesirable options (e.g., unsubscribe) through low color contrast. This makes content inaccessible and does not meet the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines threshold for color contrast (4.5:1 for normal sized text). #ColorContrast #Unsubscribe #Inaccessible Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at https://ADACompliance.net. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/adabook https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at https://accessible.org. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at https://ADABook.com. Transcript: https://adabook.com/poor-color-contrast-hide-unsubscribe/

Kris explains why his WCAG course is the best training for understanding what each of the 50 WCAG 2.1 AA success criteria are asking for. The course includes plain English explanations in text and video, code examples, and a sortable Excel spreadsheet checklist. Go to https://WCAGcourse.com to purchase the course. #WCAGCourse #WCAGTraining #WCAGforBeginners In addition to the WCAG Course, you may be interested in the ADA Compliance Course (ACC). Kris designed the ACC as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at https://ADACompliance.net. Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/adabook https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at https://accessible.org. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at https://ADABook.com. Transcript: https://adabook.com/new-wcag-course-web-content-accessibility-guidelines/

Talk about being unstoppable, wait until you hear our episode with Rosalind Panda. Rosalind lived her first 24 years in India. Her parents by any standard encouraged her to be creative, innovative, and unstoppable. She moved to the United States after receiving degrees in Computer Science and Technology while in India. She went back to school to, as she put it, “refresh her computer knowledge”. Since leaving college Rosalind has formed a number of companies dealing with all aspects of creativity in a variety of industries including computer technology and construction. On top of everything else Rosalind spends, as she says, about 40% of her time being creative as an artist producing mainly oil paintings. Even this work began for her as a child encouraged by her parents. She also is an author as you will learn. As you will see, she keeps busy and totally enjoys life and all she does. She wants to be remembered as someone who is creative and helps humanity. She does this for sure! About the Guest: Rosalind Panda as a Thought leader, Visionary and Change maker is here to inspire others to do what inspires them so that all of us together can make this world a better place. She lives a life with Purpose and optimism serving mankind and benefitting the World through the fundamentals elements of life e.g. Art, Technology, Creative design thinking and Innovation. She is the CEO and Founder of Rosalind Business Group LLC. CEO of Rosalind IT Services, Founder of Rosalind Arts, CEO of Rosalind Constructions, and Founder of ROVA Token. She is a technology Innovator, fine art artist, public Speaker, Author, and influencer. Additionally, she is in the board of members in the non profit organization called River Art Works. She is the Influencer in International Association of Women Organization empowering, encouraging and impacting others' lives. She believes in building a legacy, acting towards her vision, serving the humanity, benefiting the human kind through her contributions and giving back to the community. Ms. Rosalind as the CEO of Rosalind IT Services company established in 2019 works with Clients in building their website design, development, support and upgrade specializing in every industry and in every technology. Her company is a top-notch IT consulting organization across the world, IT staffing, and Recruitment service provider in the United States of America. Her IT Services company specializes in web 2.0 technologies for e.g. Web and Mobile application development and helping clients arounds the world. It is a pioneer in blockchain development. As the Founder of Rosalind Arts Gallery and a well-known global fine art artist living in New York, she is a highly versatile creator with pieces in the realms of abstract, landscape, impressionistic and contemporary, modern. Each of her paintings speaks the language of love towards humanity, inner peace, world peace, Positivity, enthusiasm, and Optimism in life. In addition to her stellar efforts in this capacity, she is serving as the CEO of Rosalind Constructions between 2020 and 2021, with which she utilized CAD-based 3D modeling technology to offer construction companies and architecture firms the tools to visualize complete projects. Newly, into her business space, she added a cryptocurrency called “ROVA” Token. With the base of ROVA, she is building the World's very first utility-based eco-system that pays back to humanity where it spends. For her Incredible Contribution in the community and across the World in the field of Art, Technology Innovation and Creative Design thinking Rosalind Panda/Rosalind Business Group LLC is featured in New York weekly, Yahoo Finance, UK Herald Tribune, American Finance Tribune, CEO weekly, LA Wire, US News, Digital Journal, Yahoo news, Forbes, New York Weekly, Artist Weekly, NY Voyage, Yahoo Finance, Digital Journal, Fox news, Global Reporter Journal, US National Times, CNBC, NBC, ABC news, CBS, The US News, az central, NY WIRE, LA WIRE, NEWS NET How to Connect with Rosalind: Facebook url: https://www.facebook.com/rosalindpanda/ LinkedIn url: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosalindpanda/ Instagram: rosalindpanda5 Twitter: rosajublee TikTok: rosalindpanda1 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Hi, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Glad you're here. Right I really appreciate you coming along with us and joining us. Every time we do an episode for this journey. Today we get to meet and work with and talk to Rosalind Panda. And Rosalind is a person who has got a very diverse background has started a number of companies has continued to make them successful is very involved in art. And I'm not going to tell you a whole lot because she will. She knows her subject better than I do. So thanks very much for being here. We really appreciate you coming on unstoppable mindset.   Rosalind Panda  02:00 Thank you so much, Michael, for the wonderful, warm welcome. I'm glad to be here.   Michael Hingson  02:06 Well, why don't we start as I love to do and ask that you tell me a little bit about you growing up and so on, where you're from what you did, as a child and all those memorable things that we should know about on the podcast?   Rosalind Panda  02:21 Yeah, absolutely. So I think so. So let's start with how I, where I'm coming from, right. So I'm originally from India. And until I'm 2024, I said that I finished my studies, and have visited many places, many cities out there to gain knowledge and having the perspective of having diversity in different states, and through different languages, clothing, and the way of just living, living, right. And then when I am after 24, I came to United States, I continued my studies here as well in computer science. And after due to jobs and projects, I moved around cities to cities. And again continued my journey through gaining experience, understanding the diversity, understanding different culture, people, and the people who are coming from different different countries, bringing their wonderful perspective. So that's how I where I am today. And I'm still learning about humanity. And my greatest passion that I love, in my everyday to real life is serving humanity, because that's my love towards humanity that I learned from life and I would love to continue that as I go.   Michael Hingson  03:59 So, when you were growing up in India, you said you visited a lot of cities, did you visit other places outside of India or just around India?   Rosalind Panda  04:06 When I was in India, yes, only the cities in different states in India itself is very big. Also, it is a big compared to compared to when things change in in different state. Right away the language changes and you feel like you're a foreigner in a foreign country altogether. And the food is different. The culture, the language is different, the way the other states are living that is totally different. So I just when they're in different states, I moved around. Yeah, well, I was there.   Michael Hingson  04:41 When you go from state to state in India, and now you go from state to state in the United States. Do you find that there's as much cultural difference between states in the US as there was an India or not so much.   Rosalind Panda  04:59 I feel as though have, for example, in last month, I visited to Las Vegas, I went to Arizona. So I see the difference. When it comes to the culture also the the density of people, for example, in Arizona, there are a lot of people from Mexico. So they're bringing that Spanish culture, you will see a lot of like the food is changing a bit. And also the weather, due to the weather, the businesses around that place the food around that place. It's kind of different, but not too much, because the language stays still stays the same. So on only the culture and food changes, but the length because the language stays the same. You I don't feel a lot of difference in there. And also when I went to Dallas, yeah, there is another state I went to Dallas last month as well. It's a bit different. You see the cowboy, that culture right, though, that is coming. So southern culture that is a bit different than music, the food changes to certain extent, but not too much. So but still there is like diversity around which I enjoy thoroughly.   Michael Hingson  06:26 It sounds like differences are a little bit more dramatic in India, especially if language and so on is different from one place to another. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. That's true. Yeah. So you came to the United States and you're, you're traveling around him. And so where do you live?   Rosalind Panda  06:47 Staten Island, New York.   Michael Hingson  06:49 You are in Staten Island. So have you been to California?   Rosalind Panda  06:53 Yeah, I was in California for seven years. Since 2004. Till 2011. I was in California. I did my studies over there and I stayed around ample amount of time, like seven years is a lot. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  07:10 it is. So where were you in California.   Rosalind Panda  07:15 I was in Mountain View, and Fremont and Union Station. And also the Bay Area. quite a quite a few. Like Barry. I was there. I enjoyed it as well like pretty pretty close to San Francisco.   Michael Hingson  07:32 Yeah. What did you study?   Rosalind Panda  07:36 I started in Foothill College. It's a college which was nearby my when I was living, there was De Anza as well San Jose, which is on those boats are coming under centers in university. So I did some few like, completed my associates degree over there, because I have my bachelor's degree from India. So I can end my postgraduate as well from India. I just wanted to refresh my my education, the way of how people are studying here just went to have some extra knowledge about Computer Information System how, how how people are adapting to this, the students are learning. And also I did some really fun classes. During my college for example, swimming. I didn't know swimming before. I was so scared of water. I thought about I thought about overcoming my fear, which is swimming. So I finished my swimming lesson now. I'm pretty good swimmer. In three months, I landed. I felt so good. They're like pre a few other classes like music class. And also I learned taekwondo. I did my martial art kickboxing, Taekwondo and California, which was so much fun. So enjoy it thoroughly. The time I lived there.   Michael Hingson  09:02 You degrees from India, they were in computer science.   Rosalind Panda  09:05 Yeah, they're in computer science, and all computer application system and postgraduate as well. In computer application.   Michael Hingson  09:15 Did you get a master's degree out of the postgraduate work?   Rosalind Panda  09:19 i Yeah, it is the equivalent to Master's degree.   Michael Hingson  09:22 Master's degree. Yep. Yeah. And here you did your AAA degree. Did you go beyond that? Or just get the AAA to kind of see how things were and sort of refresh?   Rosalind Panda  09:34 Just to refresh? Exactly. Just to refresh it as degree Associate in Science? Yeah. Because I didn't have to do a lot of studies because I had already done those while I was in India. So just to refresh my memory, there was a gap of, I believe, five to six years between when I finished my studies and here I started so I just thought about bridging that gap. been starting my GED care career crush? Yeah. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  10:04 you piqued my interest in talking about swimming and being afraid of water. Tell me more about that. How did you overcome it? Or why did you decide to overcome your fear of water and, and get into to being a swimmer?   Rosalind Panda  10:18 Yeah, so that's a really fun story. When I was a kid, during summer vacation, I was when I was in school, during summer vacation, we used to come with my parents to the village like our village, and there was a pond. There are many ponds in our village. So normally we go and have bath in the pond in summer, I was so afraid of water, and we had River as well. But I was so so scared that I wouldn't go too deep into the pond. Because I think, oh my god, what will be there inside though? There will be rocks, and you can see it was pretty deep. So somehow, I had a little fear about what is there in the water, because I can't see much. And also, my mind doesn't work when I'm in water. So it was I was pretty pretty, like I couldn't survive while I was in water. But what my dad did, he was there was everybody family member, they were gather, and they were just doing their thing. They were taking a bath and having fun. But dad wanted me to swim. So what he did is he just put me into the water. And he thought I'm gonna start swimming. I was it was like no lead. I don't know, swimming. Water.   Michael Hingson  11:53 So that didn't help your attitude about water at all, did it? No, not   Rosalind Panda  11:57 at all. Because the he was thinking, swimming is pretty intuitive. And as soon as somebody gets into the water, they will just know how to survive by making hand or leg movement, which was not pretty intuitive, because I was not open to that at all. So I heard, I had that fear in me. And when I saw I thought I'm never going to be able to swim when it comes to water. And when I came to the United States in California, when I was staying in a apartment, we had a swimming pool as well. I had always swimming pools, and I started going to taekwondo class, the kickboxing class, I used to go to my apartment gym and doing workout every day as well and practice my movements in Taekwondo and learning the things. So while doing those martial arts and kickboxing, I created that resilience and having that full, full determination about overcoming the fear or how practice makes you a do and overcome your fear. Right. So while when I went to school, I saw the swimming pool, it's a really nice swimming pool. And I saw people are learning swimming. So I thought about how about I also learned swimming and overcome my fear. So there were some extra, I believe, a one unit or two unit class, it was there for three months. So I took it I learned. I also played tennis that time. I did pull body flexibility, class, also yoga and music class. And apart from that there was a swimming class. So I had an instructor. I said, Hey, man, I'm pretty scared of water. But I want to really learn. And by the time we are done with the swimming class, this sentence, it is always roaming around my mind that I'm scared of water. It should not be there. In case in case there is a situation when I'm inside the water, I should be able to know doesn't matter if it is a pond, if it is a river, it is an ocean. Instead of my mind going blackout. I should be able to know what to do, at least for certain period of time, I should be able to survive. I'm not talking about ocean. But still, if I'm in the ocean, I should be able to know how to control my breathing and not totally blank out when I'm in the water. So my teacher understand calm and instructor understood about it and he said, I promise that didn't happen. And yours you I will not be scared of water anymore. Since I was very, very confident I was fully determined. I at least made sure that when I'm in the Water is somebody is watching me, and not letting me drown for sure. So with that assurance, I just started learning every day with full determination and full dedication. And in few days, I was so good at it, I was like I was with, with the practice and determination, I started doing my freestyle, as well as the backstroke, I was able to float on my back for the whole 5050 meter swimming pool. And it was I was ecstatic. I was so happy that there is nothing in my life anymore, that I can say I'm scared of, because that was the only thing, though what if it was a practical thing.   Michael Hingson  15:50 What is what is interesting, though, is that you made the choice not to be afraid and you whether you totally did it with intent you, you created an environment where you could eliminate the fear, you told your instructor about it, and your instructor, then helped but you made the choice not to be afraid. We did an episode earlier this year was actually on April 13, was our 29th show, we interviewed a gentleman named Matt rock and Matt swims every day or every other day in the Pacific Ocean, off of Dana Point in Southern California. And he talks about his fear, not of swimming, but when he first decided to try to swim in the winter, when it was much colder water, like 55 degrees Fahrenheit in the water. And Matt doesn't use a wetsuit. And he talked about being afraid and again, made the decision, although it was a little bit scary, but he made the decision to jump in the water when he got really close to it. And then within a couple of seconds, he was used to the water and everything was fine. But again, it's a choice. And when he found out that there was really no great reason to be afraid of the water simply because it was cold or for you. You made a decision not to free afraid of the water just because you go in the water and you can sink and bring yourself up and so on. That's really what it's all about, isn't it?   Rosalind Panda  17:23 Yeah, absolutely. Because I believe that our mind is everything. And when we decide something in our mind, the mind doesn't control us anymore. But it learns it listens to us, like, okay, she wants to do it. And I don't have any control or fear in it. But rather I should just cooperate. Right? So that's what happens when your intention, your determination overpowers your mind. Because mind can play so many games of fears and make you scared of anything which does not even exist. So I believe in that. And yeah, here I am. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  18:07 Okay, so you have done a lot of studying. And you've learned a lot. What did you do with all that knowledge? And did you work while you were studying? Like when you came to the US? Or did you just study or tell us a little bit more about kind of when you got here and went to school and what all you did?   Rosalind Panda  18:30 Yeah, so when I went to my school, college, right, and now Foothill College in California. I was, I was so I would say that I was very fascinated by all the classes and the teachers I heard really good teachers. They were, they were coming from different countries like England, and Euro. Australia. Today is a fun college because we in our college there were I believe there are more than 70 countries the students are coming from. So I saw a beautiful acceptance, a beautiful acceptance in everybody and encouragement, which was extremely fun for me. Because I had friends from Mongolia, my best friend, one of my best friend from Brazil, from India from the United States. So I made really wonderful friends were very kind and fun loving and they were approaching me and said Rosalynn will you be our my best friend, but that's how they were so much fun. So it was cool to experience that from from a symbol, you know, innocence that we have as human being when somebody comes and opens up towards you and helps you throughout their journey and makes it even more fun and adventures. So while I was in school, I was also helping my fellow other students learning. So they were struggling in math. And few other classes English, yes. So to write their essays or help them understand there were a few classes, which was hard, like critical thinking and writing. So we had to analyze some movies, right? What were our analysis about the movie, and it was pretty, pretty cool, how the teacher were giving those assignments, and it was helping us think through and express ourselves. That was helping my friends who were coming from different countries, and they were not pretty fluent in English and thinking to and expressing themselves. So I was helping them express, I was helping them, making sure that they were also doing their excellent, their best. You know, so, math, and English, I was hoping others to do as well. And also, while doing the swimming class, also, one person was totally scared of swimming. She, I think she was about she was, she gave up in three days. She said, No, I cannot do this. I am, I am losing my, I'm losing my patience with this. I'm so scared of water. And I cannot do this, she was about to give up. I kept telling her now just just just be patient and go through the process. Trust the process, there is this instructor, she is not letting you drown at all. So and I'm here also, I was because we both were swimming. So when she was feeling like she was drowning, I was getting her hair up. So that was pretty fun. That while it gave me a wonderful lesson in my life as well, while you do your part, you can help others survive and do their best as well.   Michael Hingson  22:14 So tell her that you were afraid of water. Yeah,   Rosalind Panda  22:17 we started at the same point, she clearly knows that, that I was so scared of water. But in third day, I started having my confidence in myself. But she was literally giving up. But then I kept her going. And she, by the time we finished, she was at a point that she was not afraid of any water anymore. But she she needed more practice. She was a little weak. So she was not that strong, determined, or strong willed. So but I don't know what happened after that. But at least she survived at that time. So those are fun times that we really had. Also the food. They were some some some events in our school that was happening around every year, where all the every cuisine, right, some somebody's coming from fizzy, somebody's coming from China, Thailand, Korean, Indian, American, Brazilian, all the food everybody was specializing in and they will get some food, their authentic food. And we will have in the event those food displayed. And we will go to every stall one by one and try those foods and experience that. Even if we're not going to the country, by ourselves in person. But by having the food and talking to them and how it's made. What are the ingredients to interact with those people who are coming from those countries? It was it was excellent to accept everybody and learn everybody's culture. And you know, to feel more human, not just live in your own bubble, say to his to his excellent experience while I was in school, always vulnerable.   Michael Hingson  24:10 So where are you when you were in school? Did you work or did how did you support going to school and all that?   Rosalind Panda  24:16 So yeah, I was working. I was doing my computer science, some of the projects as well. I was tutoring some kids who were preparing for math competitive exam. So I was really putting a lot of effort into helping others, like kids who are learning math and computer science projects. Also I was doing I was a math instructor in my school as well. Helping others to in their their classes, which when they are struggling, so that those all those projects I did when I was at school   Michael Hingson  24:58 so You were at school and you finally got your Associate of Science degree, then what did you do?   Rosalind Panda  25:07 I moved from there to different cities to do. So I started getting projects in different cities like Boston, I came on a project. And after that project was finished, I moved to other cities like Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Washington, and Austin, Texas, a lot of projects I did in different cities. So I have moved around, I believe, seven to eight cities after my schooling. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  25:38 Well, how did people learn about you that they asked you to come and deal with different projects, and so on.   Rosalind Panda  25:45 I'm a believer, then you'll get a software, software development degree. And you have the platforms like dice CareerBuilder, monster, and you're looking for good projects, and depending on what skill sets you have. And so I was approached, with a lot of projects till now as well. If you learn a good skill set, and you keep, like adapting I was keep, I was always adapting to new technologies, starting from web to 1.0, where we're just dealing with static websites. But as in my era, already 2.0 was introduced. So I was fully learning the new frameworks, the the all the software, like what do you call libraries that we're going to be using with that web application development and software development. So I'm getting those projects based on my skill sets, which were totally in demand. And a lot of big companies, fortune 500 companies, they wanted good, skilled, and people. And also I'm very proactive about moving on, and having a good career learning good things and helping clients helping the organization do well, when whatever projects they are trying to do. So it just kept kept me moving.   Michael Hingson  27:17 When you were doing a lot of that coding and dealing with people helping them create whether web applications or websites, did you ever get involved much with accessibility and dealing with making websites available for persons with disabilities?   Rosalind Panda  27:34 Absolutely, because a lot of our applications when they're fully mature, and we're using the advanced technology for billions of users to use at a time, we're depending on for enhancing the security, scalability, the user friendly usability and accessibility, because the more and more people are using technology, every genre every from every category of people started using it. So once the application is mature, accessibility was a pretty heavy department that everybody was stressing on. So I was involved in making accessible like healthcare projects, as well as banking applications, some of the insurance applications which the accessible disabled people are using. So we definitely I was involved in those projects as well.   Michael Hingson  28:37 If I understand what you're describing, you're saying that the applications would would be created. And then other things were accomplished, such as making the applications accessible or did accessible of the start right from the outset of the application,   Rosalind Panda  28:55 the accessibility was also parallely being done, while the application is already being used. We had to use certain libraries and certain code standards, Wk C standards, there are certain libraries to use so that the screen reader can read those HTML code, or all the protocol, the web, the languages, for the screen reader. So as as as HTML five became more semantic, so we wanted to, on top of that, to make the applications accessible, we're implementing the libraries to make it so   Michael Hingson  29:39 why is it that we see so many websites today, and also a lot of applications that are still not at all accessible? There? There so many examples one can find, both with websites in just a variety of applications I mean, even voting, although voting electronic likely isn't totally accepted anyway. But why is it that we find a lot of resistance or a lot of lack of attention to making accessibility an integral part of all of that.   Rosalind Panda  30:12 And now, the organization's it depends on the culture and the budget they allocate for every project, they maybe they are not stressing on making it accessible. Because every application that is built, a lot of it goes through always user testing, right? User Acceptance Testing, there is a certain number of people, they will do the testing in production environment, and they constantly get user input from the real time user, their customers to make the application even better, where the users are facing challenges. They implement more creative design thinking towards what they what they develop. But it depends always on the organization itself, stressing on considering those points and thinking about the category of people who really want to use the application, but due to it is not accessible, they have to take other people's help, rather than being self sufficient to use application. I believe that's a drawback in the organization, if they're not using those, and making it accessible for those customers, because that's very, very important to do. So.   Michael Hingson  31:39 Part of the problem, it seems to me also is that if we would make accessibility a part of the native development and make it so that you can't create, without including access, that would help but for example, the people who make tools that people use to create websites, don't have anything in those tools that mandate accessibility, even though it's pretty well defined today, for example, with the internet, Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, 2.1, soon to be three Oh, and so on. But the people who create the tools that build websites, don't have any specific requirements within the tools that says, not publishing the website till it's fully accessible and conforms with the guidelines. Yeah, so native access doesn't happen.   Rosalind Panda  32:39 Yeah, no, I agree. Because the frameworks that are being implemented, they focus on internationalization. But accessibility is totally so different libraries and standard all together, that the framework don't consider having that. But I believe it's a very, very, very crucial part essential part to have this included as well, so that nobody can neglect or ignore those scenarios as well. But it's it should be an essential part to be considered, while making the application for normal user, as well as ready for the accessible disabled people as well.   Michael Hingson  33:23 Yeah. Basically, the way to probably say it best is accessibility, or what I prefer to say, as inclusion should be part of the cost of doing business, and it just isn't yet for everyone.   Rosalind Panda  33:35 Yeah, absolutely. But I believe that there is certain challenges as well. Because when you try to make application accessible, and using those library and standard, there will be certain areas, which need, I believe, a lot more expertise, I would say, but I believe a lot of organizations are facing challenges while doing it. Because even if we try to make it fully accessible, but every applications functionality, their behavior is different. So sometimes the application become extremely complicated or complex, while they think now we don't want to make it accessible because it's not. It's not that simple. For somebody, the screen reader to read everything it might not be so I believe in future, those challenges should be overcome. And we should be thinking about promise solution oriented approach and inclusion, as you mentioned, then those challenges will be overcome day by day. What a   Michael Hingson  34:43 lot of the challenges are more perceived than actual though and I think that that's the issue is that people think things are perhaps harder than they need to be. But it is a process and and hopefully, we'll also find more schools include teaching about access and teaching people to make access and inclusion part of what they do as their students so that they will then go out and automatically do when they graduate and go out into the world as as workers.   Rosalind Panda  35:17 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. As you said, human beings are very intelligent they have, they're given the brain right to think and find a solution. And with that specific determination and approach, if we think through and try to find that solution, then we can definitely find find, go somewhere with you, instead of just giving up and thinking about, no, it's pretty difficult, we don't want to do this. And those organizations, every organization, I believe they should allocate, and the project to make their application accessible, that will, that will be like icing on the cake, you're making your application accessible to everyone, which is absolutely wonderful, you know, that will truly appreciate that, that kind of approach from organizations   Michael Hingson  36:15 will tell me more about you, you. So you went to work. And along the way, you became certainly a thought leader or a technology innovator and you went into art. Tell me about that, if you would.   Rosalind Panda  36:30 Absolutely. Yeah. So I will start with my my childhood time, when we are born with I believe we are all born with creativity, as a tool inside us, the challenge becomes when we don't identify it, right, we just think, Oh, we are not at stake. So I believe and then we start comparing with each other and not nurturing that inside us. Which is opposite in my case, because I have been brought up in a very encouraging family, my parents, my dad and mom, they're extremely encouraging and they they could recognize they could identify that when we give it when we create that environment for for our children, then and also make them understand what they can do with their time, what they can do with their brain, their developing brain, their focus their concentration, then. So I was I was heavily encouraged from a poor my childhood, I was learning I was studying in a school, also where the environment was extremely encouraging. And they were focusing on extracurricular activities, for example, focusing on nurturing your creativity, writing points, learning music, using your time to express on certain mediums like pencil sketches, drawings, paintings, and also game we're playing games, outside outdoor activities, and acting. Acting also I was pretty pretty much open to every form of creativity a human being can do. And while after school when I come from in my house, I love to paint that time. Because that that is the time I can express myself it's a my calm, calm time, right? We express we think about it, and I love colors. So I love to see what I'm creating. So I play outside as well and I have to come back, I create an AI that use pay balance throughout the day. Before I do my homework. I also learn music, I create music, I give lyrics and music and actually harmonium as well and bright points as well I think in front of the whole crowd, my village my school and the whole city so this is all part of my creativity and art is one of them, which I always not sure that to the max. I was participating in many drawing competitions painting exhibitions as well. While I was in school, and my my school my teachers and my parents were having me too. Were giving me those platforms and telling me that no we will create that platform per euros length where you can excel and make us proud now it's not just a as a kid we can understand as Oh, you're making your school proud or your parents proud, but really, essentially, you're truly getting yourself up, you're getting your your own inner creator encouraged more and more, so that it becomes a habit when we land into our adulthood. So that's what happened. I carried out all my habits, what I was doing since my childhood, to my adulthood as well. And as soon as I could afford my canvases, my colors, my oil colors and my time, I just became, like, professionally, I create started creating since last, like I believe for more than four, around 14 years or so I have been creating them professionally. And I loved the oil, medium oil colors on Canvas the best so far. Because like the oil color, the expression, the textures, that comes out, it's out of the world. For me, I believe I can express in those, but I can also do to pencil sketches, watercolor, acrylic, sketch, anything you give me I can create those, for all color is the best one that I do as of now. And when I'm creating art, my purpose behind why I'm creating the bigger purpose behind it. I believe the underlying message that I put in all my paintings are love towards humanity, inner peace, world peace, optimism, and positivity. I believe those are really crucial and foundational principles in human life. Those elements, we those are indispensable in human life. So I put those in my paintings, I also write points around them, so that people can, really because words are good to the soul. So I'll always believe if I'm creating something wonderful, it's we are pasting our eyes. But also we're feeding our soul. We are feeding our weeks I am expressing my heart and soul when I'm creating. But it's it's amazing, such a wonderful energy to the viewer, or the reader through my points when they're reading it and connecting my feelings, which I'm expressing through the points and on Canvas. So it's a beautiful way of expression and consumption conception, and also intake for the viewer.   Michael Hingson  42:48 Is that your work today? Or? Well, what what do you do for work? And how does all that fit into it?   Rosalind Panda  42:54 I do work otherwise, I'm a professional artist. And as well as I am a business owner where I help clients with software development with any technology, every technology, web 2.0, as well as I do crypto, I'm the founder of the world's first utility based crypto ecosystem robot token. So building those applications as well for to serve the mankind. So I'm pulling a technology person and I believe in innovation. So that's where all my time and energy also go. I have so many clients as well, throughout my day in their web application development as well. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  43:39 So you do a lot of web development and web work and so on. Is that kind of where you focus most of your time? Or what do you do most of   Rosalind Panda  43:48 I do, as I mentioned, like software development, I do the most and also out it's kind of 60 4060 software, and then party 30 is all the creative things about it. Technology also I put my creativity and when we're building, I'm thinking about the creative ways to coming up with a solution to the clients challenges that are facing. So a new implementation any defects that are arising the applications, I focus on those as well as creating art and writing poems for people. And also I have construction business Roseland constructions is another business I that I also handle and Roma token, which is as I mentioned, that is the world's first crypto based ecosystem. I also put my time into creating those as well.   Michael Hingson  44:44 So, what what is Rosalynn panda construction all about?   Rosalind Panda  44:48 Rosaline construction company is all about steel detailing, architectural designing, interior designing. So those are the spurts of resilient construction syndrome expanding?   Michael Hingson  45:05 Uh huh. So you you're doing this, you're mainly in the designing part of construction, which again gets back to creativity, doesn't it?   Rosalind Panda  45:13 Exactly, exactly. All my businesses are revolving around creativity. I, I just love being creative in all my areas. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  45:24 So you use CAD systems, I believe and would expect in your construction work?   Rosalind Panda  45:31 Yeah, we have, we have certain now like certified people as well. It's not like I am doing directly, right. So I am the CEO, I have my team as well to take care of those days use certain tools and to take care of those specific elements like steel detailing and construction business. It's expanding. And my team is also growing. So there's a lot more to come in future. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  46:01 I started a company back in 1985, when I needed to, because I couldn't find a job. And we sold some of the first PC based CAD system. So we use AutoCAD and another one called vs cat, although AutoCAD has become the most famous one and the most widely known, I think, in the in the cat world, we had some other CAD systems. But it was right at the beginning of when people started to recognize that CAD actually could allow someone to be just as creative. Do it in a fraction of the time and still then go on and do more work and get more jobs and hopefully make more money and support their business.   Rosalind Panda  46:44 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's absolutely right.   Michael Hingson  46:49 Yeah, CAD does not stifle or limit your creativity. It gives you another way, in a lot of ways a more effective way to, to, to show it.   Rosalind Panda  47:00 Yeah, exactly. You can customize it, you can now use your creativity. And what do you want on top of it, just a basic tool that you can definitely incorporate your creativity to do so.   Michael Hingson  47:15 Right? So you're doing a lot of different things, needless to say? And does does there ever happen to be spillover or do things get combined together? You're doing artwork and in any way? Does that get to spill over into your other companies and so on? Or are they really separate?   Rosalind Panda  47:38 I believe, as I said that it's a common element where my creativity flows, right? It all my all my businesses are revolving around creativity. I also write books. I have my latest book, I co authored a book called powerful female immigrant, about 24 powerful immigrant women who are making a difference. Despite of the surmountable odds they have faced in life, and there is another book just got launched, which is called Lead self become the leader, which is by me, which is 10 foundational principles to live your life. So that's the book just got launched last week on 12th November. So that is be pretty, like it will be available in few days in Amazon. It's already in the process. And I also speak, I'm a speaker as well, I speak on public platform stages, podcasts. So I believe it's not a spillover, but it's it's a different angle of my my personality. What makes me as a whole song. And I believe in holistic, fulfillment as a human being, rather than just being being one directional. I become diverse, I let my imagination I flow into different angles of me, and making me who I am. It's part of my personality, I let it flow I unleash my imagination, my creativity. When it tries to flow on the canvas, I do through art, what I'm trying to do through words, I write poems, and write a book and what I'm trying to express through my words, I speak on stages and help other players empowering others inspiring them and so that they can do and they can be inspired and empowered to do what they love to do. They can be more of what they want to be. And while in doing the software development, I let my creativity my solution oriented mind, my creative design thinking to in the development I have the applications. So that because I know that the main purpose of letting my creative into different directions is to serve humanity. The intention behind what I do is to serve humanity. So it's going to solve so many users, so many customers and the end, that it gives me that pleasure and that driving force to do so. I'm not just coming up with a solution to do for myself. That's, of course, it's serving me because I'm nourishing my passion, my intentions, my, my day to day activities, for sure. But the end goal, the intention behind it is about about the people about the humanity, of what we are helping what I'm helping through my creativity. So I let it   Michael Hingson  50:55 be you. How do you as you're being creative, keep from getting a mental block that blocks being creative? How do you keep going, you know, writers oftentimes talk about getting writer's block, and they can't move forward and, and so on. You sound like that doesn't happen to you. Why is that?   Rosalind Panda  51:14 Why is that because, as I mentioned, when we become unidirectional, and just go in one direction, sometimes we feel stuck, because we're not thinking around the edges. And that time, we can take a small break and come out, come up with a fresh mind to move on. Because remember, when to get a momentum in any of our actions, sometimes, we need to take two steps backward. And to come forward with a greater force, or a pool momentum, like the trampoline effect, if you want to jump higher, you, you know that you have to go down in the trampoline to too little beneath, like little below the surface as well. So that's how the mental block happens when we think as if we're really stuck. But we change our perspective, and give us a small break about thinking, Okay, I'm not able to come up with the idea right? Now, how about, just let me take a walk. Or let me just get away, go go away from this thing, what I'm trying to do, in few minutes, I'll be coming back with a fresh mind. And it comes, it really comes. So that's when we have to have our patience with ourselves. To have understanding about how creativity really flows. Do we have to have that understanding? Some so many people call it procrastination. But it is not really procrastination, if you know the story of Leonardo da Vinci, you're the artist who were in the history, they used to do so many things at a time, and they will be coming back to what they're creating a project. If they're not really procrastinating, it's rather, they are they know that if they're working on a big project or something, then sometimes the mind has to think from my perspective, as totally external person, not the person who is creating that other person who is reading. So we have to switch our paradigm switch our prospective, then only the blog, which gets created in the mind, that goes away. For example, if I go ahead, so for example, I shall write if, when a chef is cooking, and when he's cooking, he's gonna appreciate his food, he's gonna be like, Oh, this is tasty, because he's creating it. But if he changes his perspective, and thinks about from a primary customer point of view, or the person who is eating, then he he will be giving a better feedback on that. He can think oh, yeah, my I might need to improve this food a little bit. Because when I'm thinking about it, like a creator, I am appreciating everything. But I'm not thinking from the user perspective, the the person who is eating. So that's how switching the perspective changes the game for me and the people who are having the block blockers in their mind as well.   Michael Hingson  54:43 It's all about letting your inner mind take over and not stressing about it. And that's what I thought you would say and that's really what it's all about is the blocks are things that we create ourselves. So you have written and you know, exemplify leadership in a lot of ways, what to you is true leadership and how do you implement it? I believe   Rosalind Panda  55:06 that true leadership starts with leading yourself first, before even leading others, positive, we as a human being up can lead ourselves the best. And thinking about having perseverance, patience, persistence, endurance, and having a schedule a discipline and how to how to let our inner creator think, and lead ourselves the best. I believe that's the true leadership. Because if a person when a person, they know how to lead themselves, despite all the chaos, all the stress all the negative environment that can impact their mind state, when they can control they can control or have a wonderful balance in their mind. That time, they they impact others who are in the surrounding, and eventually, they're the world. They create a wonderful ripple Ripple Effect in their own consciousness, which is self consciousness. And when they end afterwards, they impact their community, where they are serving in their day to day life, and in the world, because everything that through leadership reflects through their actions, their words, their, what they're doing in their activities, their intentions. So I believe leading yourself leading ourselves first, as a human being. That's true leadership. It doesn't matter what role you have, what authority you have, what designation you have. But having that mind state, to be happy, to be content, to be, to be the own driving force in your own life is very crucial.   Michael Hingson  57:07 How do you want people to remember you, you, you interact with a lot of people, and then you go on and do other things? And so on? What, what do you want people to remember about you? And what kind of effect do you want to have on the world?   Rosalind Panda  57:22 Yeah, that's a wonderful question. So when, when I want people to remember me, I believe they will remember me as an artist who love to express herself on the canvas or no matter what medium I'm out writing a book, or speaking or writing. This, remember is me as a creator, who unleashes its own power to create, create that ripple effect to impact other people's lives. I empower others, I inspire others to be their best Excel and improve in their lives. And as a good leader, who knows how to lead myself first in my life, and impacting others as well and empowering others with optimistic approach with a positive approach. And just a positive person, a optimistic person, a true leader, now, who serves the humanity serves the community and believes in giving back to the community through every action. That's what I want and innovator, technology innovator, a futuristic, a visionary, a thought leader, a change maker, who brings wonderful, huge difference into her life, which is me. And also every every person surrounding me, eventually the world.   Michael Hingson  58:47 So let me ask you this question. We call this the unstoppable mindset podcast. What does unstoppable mindset mean to you? And what advice do you have for people listening to our episode today?   Rosalind Panda  59:04 Unstoppable means no matter what happens in your life, what circumstance or you go through, nobody can break your spirit. You are the person who is leading yourself throughout every situation. And you as a human being, you totally understand the journey of life. Right? We are all doing a journey. We're all experiencing a journey from starting point A to Z, which is from birth to until a we breed, the last on Earth. Unstoppable means you don't stop at any point, no external factor. No external circumstance can break your spirit. No matter what you go through. Everything is an experience. When the experiences leaves a bitter taste in your mouth, you're learning a lesson and grow through it, evolve through it. But never stop, or never get stuck. You are more than your mind. Right? You're more, you're more than your mind. Because the mind is going to play all the games and all the voices, it will start talking to you to stop you from doing some things to stop you from being the leader in your own life. But unstoppable means you are more than your mind. You are controlling your mind. You are the master, you are the captain of your own ship of life. So that's what unstoppable things.   Michael Hingson  1:00:47 And the biggest lesson there is that it really is your choice and you don't need to let go different kinds of circumstances. Stop your spirit. You may not have control over everything that happens to you. But you always have control over how you mentally deal with it.   Rosalind Panda  1:01:07 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because as human beings, we all go through so many unwanted circumstances. Nobody's just playing on a better process, right? Life is a journey filled with bitter taste, bitter experience, wonderful experience, happy, sad experiences. But all that matters is we don't change we don't become a negative person. After any experience. We don't just generalize our experiences or people or what we see or experience or not. Because every person is different. Every person is unique. Every experience is unique. So we have to grow through it. No matter what we go through. We spread the wonderful fragrance. In the end, we understand that life is filled with wonderful experiences. We stay optimistic and positive and emit the wonderful energy into the world.   Michael Hingson  1:02:11 Oh, Rosalind Panda, this has been wonderful if people want to reach out to you learn more about what you do, maybe in gauge your services or learn about your books and so on. How do they do that?   Rosalind Panda  1:02:24 Absolutely. So my website is Rosalindpanda.com that Yeah, absolutely. R O S A L I N D. And my last name is Panda P A N D A.com. Rosalindpanda.com is my website where my socials are also there. Everything is linked to my website, I have my Rosalindarts.com which lists out all my paintings, people can read about it and Rosalinditservices.com is we are where we help clients with their web it all the web technology, related needs and requirements and Rosalynn construction is also where we help clients with their construction businesses through by token is the post utility based crypto ecosystem, all these businesses are all aligned and mentioned inside the Rosalindpanda.com website, all integrated with the my follow other websites in Facebook. I am known by Rosalind Panda, you can search me and also connect with me on I'm also in LinkedIn, Rosalind Panda, and on Instagram. I am Rosalind Panda five. The number 5 Rosalind Panda five, and on Twitter. It is my handle is Rosa Jubilee, which is R O S A J U B L E E. That's my Twitter handle. And also I'm on Tik Tok, which is Rosalind Panda one. So yeah, so I'm on the social media as well, people can connect with me and work with me. I'm not I would love to help others.   Michael Hingson  1:04:25 I hope people will do that. And we definitely will stay in touch as well. So thank you for being here. And thank you for listening. I hope that you've enjoyed this. I hope that you've learned from it I have, and I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with Rosalind but also to make this podcast, something for all of us to listen to and grow from. If you'd like to comment on today's podcast, please feel free to email me at Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. I'm, or go to my podcast page, Michael hingson.com/podcast. And please, wherever you're listening to this, give us a five star rating. We do appreciate your ratings and your comments very well. So once again, Rosalind Thank you very much for being here. And we look forward to hearing more from you and about you in the future and definitely let us know any way we can help.   Rosalind Panda  1:05:25 Thank you so much, Michael. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a pleasure and looking forward to many more.   Michael Hingson  1:05:35 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Kim Clark, our guest on this episode, focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). We talk about what Kim means by being a “communicator”. She discusses the concepts of being an internal communicator and/or an external communicator. Much of Kim's commentaries talk about what corporations can and should do to be more inclusive. As our discussions proceed, we talk a great deal about the ideas around “inclusion” especially where disabilities are concerned. While, as always, I asked Kim to provide me with questions and conversation topics she wanted to discuss we get to delve a lot into how the world treats, or not, persons with disabilities and other marginalized groups. Kim is the coauthor of the #1 Amazon bestselling book, The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, or as we say during the podcast, “The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid stuff”. You get the idea. I believe this was one of the most fun and, at the same time, informative and pertinent podcast episodes I have experienced. I hope you enjoy it. Please let me know your thoughts. About the Guest: Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and is a leading voice on DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands. Her career spans documentary filmmaking, agency partnerships with the Discovery Channel, teaching at San Jose State University, and leading global internal communication teams at KLA, PayPal, GoDaddy, and GitHub. She is known for her ability to facilitate sensitive yet urgent conversations to make meaningful progress in creating inclusive workplaces. She speaks at conferences, designs custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. How to connect with Kim: LinkedIn YouTube My Website Instagram Book website Buy the book About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Yeah, I get to say that every time we do an episode, it is kind of fun. We've now been doing these podcasts in September of last year, they're very enjoyable. And today we get to talk with Kim Clark, who is a conscious communicator, a knowledgeable person dealing with diversity, equity and inclusion. She is a co author of a book called The conscious communicator and she'll tell us more about that. And all sorts of other stuff, dealing with diversity and so on. We're gonna have fun with this, because although most of the time when you deal with diversity, especially you don't deal with disabilities, we're going to have to talk about that a little bit and see what kind of fun we can have. But we'll be nice about it. Right. Anyway, Kim, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kim Clark  02:06 It's really a pleasure. Thank you for having me, Michael. And I'm an aspiring conscious communicator. I just want to clarify having a arrived. I'm not enlightened, but I'm a farther along than a lot of other people. Is this   Michael Hingson  02:19 sort of like, is this sort of like when you're a lawyer, you're in a law practice. You're always practicing. And   Kim Clark  02:24 you're always? I'm a DI communications practitioner. Yes.   Michael Hingson  02:29 So So you have a dei practice or something like that?   Kim Clark  02:33 Yes. Communication, specifically as my lane. Yes.   Michael Hingson  02:37 Well, that's fair. That's fair. We can we can live with that. Well, I really appreciate you coming on board. And looking forward to having a great chat. Let's start like I usually like to do and again, it's something I've been doing almost from the beginning. And it just seems to me that kind of fun way to lighten the load and start the process. Tell us a little bit about you growing up and sort of where you came from, and how you got into this and all that stuff. For a general question, I   Kim Clark  03:05 love it. I love it. Michael, thank you very much for helping set the context of how I got to be where I am today. I grew up in a conservative Christian kind of environment from a religious standpoint in Oregon, Washington, and then coming down to California. And I've been in California ever since I was 12 years old. But I'm still an Oregonian at heart. In Oregon, you're either a beaver or duck doesn't even matter if you went to those schools. And we are ducks in our family. So just to clarify that for any Oregonians that are listening. And I had a very interesting coming out in my late 20s. And from that experience, I I produced a documentary called God and gays bridging the gap. And that was basically putting a face and voice to people who were becoming political pawns at the time and still are. And to talk about the benefits and consequences of coming out. When you say coming out You mean as as LGBTQ plus okay, great, just making sure. And then bringing in, you know, pastors and people who are, you know, a part of Christian or Jewish traditions and bringing in that perspective. And so I spent a lot of time showing that movie around all over the place for a few years. And that really catapulted me into how do I tie in social justice issues. Equity. In my work, work, no matter where I am, shortly after the documentary, which was my happiest time and my poorest time. So I got into corporate communications, specifically internal or employee communications. And that's where you spend your time working with leaders sending out emails doing intranet work. So you're talking to the employees about what's going on in the company, you're setting up the company meetings, working with employee resource groups on setting up, you know, speakers and those kinds of things. And at that same time, I started to bring in a mentor who became my teacher and coach, and I've worked with her for almost 20 years now. And she has been a diversity trainer for 40 years. And so while I'm learning and coaching with this mentor over these years, she's constantly talking about diversity, equity and inclusion in the, the corporate space. And so I start pulling when I'm learning into my communication strategies, I'm like, Okay, well, what is the role of a communicator and content creator in this diversity, equity and inclusion space. And so I started implementing that, and building the infrastructure of relationships externally, with grassroots community organizations, as well as employee resource groups, etc. And it was tested, when the pulse tragedy happened in 2016, in Charlottesville, where employees came to me and said, We can't focus, we need support, can we do something for employees. And so I, in within a few hours, got together a virtual vigil. And I brought in my mentor, she's on speed dial, everybody should have somebody on speed dial for these kinds of things. I'm on lots of clients is speed dial, but my mentor was my speed dial. And I brought her in, and we held a virtual vigil over resume in 2016. And I saw, without knowing anything like this, whatever occur at the time, I saw the importance and the urgency that communicators needed to be in a strong position to handle these kinds of social crisis situations, but also being proactive around diversity, equity and inclusion communications from a cultural moment, like Pride Month, proactively and consistent, strategic, meaningful, transformative versus performative. And I just started going out and talking about it. I did a lot of talks, conferences, you know, speaking opportunities, I did a lot of teaching while I was in house, and then in 2019, I went out on my own, and I'm, that's what I do full time now is I help answer, what is the role of the communicator and content creator when it comes to diversity and equity and inclusion efforts. And so much, Michael, you've seen this of de ai efforts, including accessibility, especially accessibility is based in language and communications, channels, how accessible our channels are, that's all the role of the communicator. And so I'm honored to be a part of this work. And since the summer of 2020, when so many companies were put were posting social media, statements of solidarity with the Black and African American community, I got really pissed off, because I knew coming from the position and the experience that I had had for over a decade in corporate communications, I knew what was happening. It was a Keeping Up with the Joneses, it was, you know, not wanting to be left out, but they did not understand the work that is behind those statements. And so I knew they were performative, for the most part, even with commitments of donations, etc, etc, I knew they didn't truly understand and that we're not equipped and resourced, whether it's people or funding to live up to what those statements meant. And so I saw those statements as using communicators, my people, my community, as being performative. They were that we were being used, and we were participating in this performative system. And I'm, I just, it just fired me up to say, I want to write a book about this, which led to the co authoring of a book called The conscious communicator, the fine art, I'm not saying stupid stuff stuff.   Michael Hingson  09:44 Yeah, I thought you were gonna do it. Yeah.   Kim Clark  09:47 And my co author is Janet Stovall, who's a TED speaker. And so she's worked with CEOs of UPS. She's an executive speech writer. So she knows that external part of communications, I know the internal part. of communication. So we partnered up to write this book, specifically for content creators and communicators, for them to understand their role and name, shall I say their responsibility in this work to become to EI, social change agents in their organizations?   Michael Hingson  10:15 Let me ask this, you said something that prompts the thought. We talked about diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility, that really misses the mark as What does accessibility mean, we still don't deal with disabilities, as a society as a race. That is the human race in general. We don't recognize yet that disability does not mean a lack of ability. And the fact of the matter is that when we say D, EI and EI, it doesn't mean a lot. Because what does accessibility mean? Do we talk about, for example, websites, a website can conform, for example, even from from a disability standpoint and an accessibility standpoint, it can conform to the guidelines set by the World Wide Web Consortium, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, it doesn't make the website usable, even though it conforms, there are things that that one can show where that doesn't always happen. Accessibility really misses the mark, because we really got to get to the point. And this is something that someone said, a few years ago, a gentleman named Suman, conda, Dante who developed a product for blind people called IRA, that he looks forward to the day when accessibility is eliminated from and is not used in the in the English language or in human language anymore, when we don't deal with that. And the reality is, it's not accessibility, it truly should be inclusion, and, and disabilities, for that matter. And until we change, and we should change how we view disability because disability, as I said, doesn't mean a lack of ability. It's a characteristic pure and simple. And also it is the second largest minority if we consider women, a minority, although numbers wise, all y'all are on a larger group than men. But we'll just go in with a standard typical definition. Persons who happen to have a disability are the second largest minority, and the minority that is absolutely totally 100% discussed the least, we didn't discuss at all National Disability Awareness Day here in this country. Earlier this month, we didn't discuss an October National Disability Employment Awareness Month, you don't see it discussed on television, as a minority, although we have a lot of sub characteristics 100 we don't discuss it, we don't deal with disabilities at all. And I am not picking on you. I'm making an observation that somehow we have to change the conversation to make that truly happen, and that we truly get included. And that's what I'm curious to see how we can really change that dynamic and get people to recognize that we're being excluded no matter what anyone says.   Kim Clark  13:17 You are not Yeah, the world isn't designed for people with disabilities, including communication channels. Right. And that's something that I talk about in my trainings quite often is the whole idea of the curb cut effect, if you want to talk about and set context for the curb cut effect, and then I'm happy to pile on as far as like what the role of the communicator is. Sure, go ahead. So the curb cut effect is the idea of especially if you're in the US, the curbs sidewalks out in public, were cut down very purposely, and then add you know, painted yellow in the middle and then dots. I don't know what the actual name of the dots are. But there's there's dots,   Michael Hingson  14:01 truncated domes, but anyway, go ahead. Okay.   Kim Clark  14:04 Thank you. Thank you. And so they were specifically built for blind, low vision, wheelchair users, etc. People with disability then, but here's the thing, the effect of Curb cuts while they are designed specifically for people, you know, with disabilities, the effect is we all benefits. Sure people who are not wheelchair users, people who are sighted. We all benefit people with you know, luggage, people who use canes who have had strokes. People who have baby carriages, people who are cyclists, you know, who will have bikes in all of its forms. People who use carts, you know, who are pulling a wagon, you know, out to the park, or whatever it is. So everybody is benefiting. Nobody has to step off a curb, you know? And, uh huh.   Michael Hingson  15:11 Take a person in a wheelchair who rolls down a ramp and goes over those truncated domes. My wife who I was married to until she passed away last month, almost 40 years. hated those as a number of people I know in wheelchairs did hate them because they get bounced all over the place. It's like riding over cobblestones. Yeah, and, and the other problem is, although some blind people really pushed for them, how much do they benefit blind people, if you're truly walking at a fast pace? Your cane, if you're using a cane may hit the dots, or the strips aren't that why do you might even go all the way over the dot the the plate of dots. And without hitting it, the reality is we still are missing the point, it's more important that blind people detect the ramp. And the dots don't necessarily do a lot to help that for a lot of us. And some people said, Well, what about a subway station to keep you from going off the edge. That's what a cane is for. That's what a dog is for. And the dots may or may not add value. And then the plates of dots at a subway platform are not very wide anyway. So I only bring that up to say they they were installed and they benefit wine people and so on. Yeah, sorta kinda. And then you can talk about the curb cut effect and the way where you have some curbs and there are some places like in Sacramento, and other places where it isn't just a curb cut, the the sidewalk gradually goes down to the street so that it's really a flat exit from the sidewalk onto the street. So you can't even tell there's a curb cut. Some people can make the case that the dots may help there. And I'm still not convinced of that having been around Sacramento, there are other mobility tools that we need. But I hear what you're saying. And look, I can make that case in other ways. The phones today smartphones have the ability to verbalize what's on the screen and so on. Although the companies don't really require, especially Apple, whether it's Apple police who supervised whatever goes into the App Store. The app developers are not required to do anything to make their apps accessible or usable by persons with a disability necessarily, but voiceover for example, on the iPhone is there. It's on every iPhone that exists in the world ever since the iPhone 3g. But why is it that we don't see more mainstreaming of using that voice? Why is it that in Tesla's rather than using a touchscreen? People are given more audio inputs? Why is it that people in a vehicle aren't encouraged to use the voice technology and Apple Push the voice technology more so that rather than looking to see who calls you, you turn on a voice that allows you to hear without ever discussing with the phone? Who is it but the reality is we're still not being included in the conversations because people say oh, that was for blind people or for for people who can't read the screen. It shouldn't be that way. You know, the electric lights and other example that covers up your disability of being light dependent, but make no mistake, you have a disability. Because if the lights go out, you have a power failure or whatever. The first thing you do is go look for a flashlight. And we've made light technology, light emitting technology incredibly available to people who can see but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to use it to cover up a disability. And still, we do that rather than changing the conversation.   Kim Clark  19:09 I love it. I love it. Your apps, of course you're right. And I and I love learning from you continually. And the whole idea of that curb cut effect is is to your point is there is a difference between intent versus impact to your point. But the intent is like okay, if we can design the world more specifically for folks that have been left out of design. We're actually going to get everybody else but just like the disability movements mantra from the late 60s, nothing about us without us, which is my one of my favorite mottos, which can also be applied to other communities situations. We have to work as communicators, with people not about or For people, it has to be in collaboration and co creative space. It's like, so me, as an internal communicator, I can own the channels. But I have to work with folks who are looking for those channels to be more inclusive of their experience. Because the whole point, Michael of communications and communicators, our whole goal should be connection. It should be connection. So if I'm putting out an email or a meeting, or an event or a social post, and I'm cutting out, like, what's the percentage, I mean, billions of people around the world I'm cutting out without getting trained and working in collaboration with people who have the answers. They know what needs to be done, we have to listen. And we have to do what they say.   Michael Hingson  20:54 We Yeah, the according to the CDC, for example, 25% of all persons have a disability of some sort. Now, the challenge is that a lot of the needs and issues that blind people face are different than the issues and needs of a person in a wheelchair, or a person who is dyslexic or a person who is deaf or hard of hearing. But yet, we all still have the same basic situation, the same basic characteristic in that we're not included. And it's difficult sometimes for different subgroups to get beyond individual needs to recognize that, but it is still where we have to go. We are we are dealing with so many different things. Just this year, the Department of Justice finally said that title two of the ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act applies to the internet. Why did it take 31 years from the time the Americans with Disabilities Act was enacted? For them to say that, in reality, the internet is a place of business as a place of reasonable accommodation. And websites need to be made accessible. Now, my belief is that as people, even today, especially today, start to look at that the reason for making your website inclusive shouldn't be because you're going to get sued, although it's there. And we can't ignore that. But we should do it because it's the right thing to do. We we include as a result, up to 25% more people than we would otherwise have. But we don't tend to look at the fact that the cost of doing business should be inclusive of persons with disabilities.   Kim Clark  22:50 And it's it's not it's not acceptable, you know, and we need to really, you know, make sure that we understand that in all kinds of fields of communications, that is completely unacceptable. Our internal websites or external websites, you know, or, or social platforms, it's completely unacceptable. I have a son and a daughter, and my son is autistic, and low verbal skills, and epilepsy. My daughter is dyslexic. And it wasn't really figured out that she was dyslexic until about second grade. And I know some people don't even know you know that they're dyslexic to college, for example, or college age. And I'm seeing especially my daughter, because she is she has more communication abilities than my son, I can hear from her. I've just like her view of the world is like this, this world, this school system, you know, these books, etc, are not built for somebody like me, I have to figure out a way to create my experience, given what the world has left me out of in designing. And so between the two of them and watching them trying to navigate the world is part of my motivation of trying to create more inclusive work spaces and places to set them up for success because my son from an autistic experience, he's just he sees the world differently. And he is experiencing the world different than what I can understand. And there is no to your point, lack of ability with either of them. They are still perfect, whole and complete. So what do I need to do as a dominant culture as a white person, as a woman, as educated, college educated, like lots of privileges, and I have this platform and this gift to teach, what can I do? What is my role? So I've turned this into my purpose. This is absolutely my purpose. have just like what is the inclusivity look like that we need to turn our, you know, turn our design paradigms, we have to flip the script, we have to flip the script and understand that we need to be designing from a completely different way than what has been done before, in order to achieve what we say that we want. And that turns communications channels as well as messaging from performative to transformative to where we can see the evidence of it. That's something my teacher mentor talks about all the time. It's like, okay, you talk about you want inclusion, you that you're an inclusive culture. Well, what's the evidence of that? So that's where I'm coming from to is like, evidence action? What is, you know, show me, show me, you know, and that's especially rare in the kind of communications world because we're all like, let me tell you about it. Let's talk about it. And I'm like, yeah, uh huh. Uh huh. And there's the say do gap. So you say that you have di e IA. So diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility. So lots of, you know, companies are adopting that kind of acronym right to be inclusive of accessibility. But are you funding that across your organization? Not just an employee resource group, as an advisory board, or whatever it may be? But are you funding them? And are you for hiring folks in your sales department, in your marketing department, in your IT department, in your communications department, hiring them? It's, you know, you have to have evidence behind what you say, to close that gap between what you say, and what you do. And then what you do, we get to say, so it's this nice, you know, relationship, but we've gotten too comfortable with this wide gap. And that's an acceptable,   Michael Hingson  27:00 well, and I go back to D EIA, my concern about a is it doesn't really address the issue of disabilities necessarily at all. And it doesn't need to be there, it should come under inclusion. Diversity should include disabilities, but it doesn't everyone has thrown disabilities out of the concept of diversity. You don't hear Hollywood talking about blind directors, we did see a film when the Best Picture award and some some good representation representation for deaf and hard of hearing this year at the Oscars, and that is great. But whether it really changes the dynamic, in the long run, is another story. And again, if we're going to talk about inclusion, you either are or you're not. This this is my my opinion and my definition of it. But you can't say well, yeah, we include some people, yeah, we're still working on others, and you're not inclusive yet. It's a quantum leap. As far as I am concerned, I probably am in a minority for saying that. But you know what, everyone else has screwed up diversity, so I can have my opinion. If we're truly an inclusive society, then there's no need to do anything else about disabilities. It's automatic. But we haven't grown to do that. And another example that I would give you is, and I've talked to deaf people about this, why is it that persons who are deaf or hard of hearing prefer deaf and or hard of hearing and not deaf or hearing impaired, there's a great reason for it? The great reason is, because when you start to use hearing impaired, you're still comparing yourself to a person who has what you might call perfect hearing. And the concept of impaired means you're less, we haven't changed that dynamic for blind people. I actually had a discussion with someone in a speech I gave in October, because I discussed the concept of blind and visually impaired and I said there are two problems with the word visually or the concept of visually impaired one. Visually, I'm not different simply because I'm blind. Now there might be something about my particular eyes or anyone's particular eyes, but blindness doesn't cause visual differences. And then you've got impaired, I'm not impaired, and we need to get the language changed. So blind and low vision is the equivalent I think, to blind to deaf and hard of hearing. And I respect deaf and hard of hearing. And when I had a discussion with someone and I use the word hearing impaired, they explained it and I said I absolutely appreciate it and you're absolutely right. But I think it's just as true for blind and low vision to be adopted. But again, diversity, equity inclusion and accessibility doesn't deal with the issue. Not at all, what does accessibility mean? For whom. And so, really, it's all about or ought to be all about inclusion, to truly make it, something that works. And we need to get society to recognize what inclusion really ought to mean. And then you know, and then deal with it accordingly. But you had mentioned that you are more of an internal communicator and your co author of the book, and I want to get to the book is more involved in external communications. Tell me more about that, if you would?   Kim Clark  30:48 Well, your your point is, so I really want people to hear what your point is around this. And a lot of it does come back to language, it comes back to narrative. What are communicators and content creators, creating around the term accessibility? How are they defining in their organizations, the term inclusion? And how are we doing follow up communications around the evidence of inclusion, that's all communications. That's why it's so critical for communicators and content creators. To truly understand this work. It's not something you just write and throw over the fence. Because we're creating the perception, the stereotypes, what is being emphasized, and what is being de emphasized. So we're emphasis emphasizing certain parts of inclusion, but we're de emphasizing to your point, you know, people with disabilities in inclusion, and we also have to own the paradigm shift around inclusion is is less about how do we accommodate others and more about how it is the dominant power within our corporate spaces, recognize itself and make room? You know,   Michael Hingson  32:05 and you're absolutely right. And again, that's why I mentioned the problems and concerns I have with the term accessibility, it's meaningless. It doesn't at all necessarily mean, disabilities, we're not putting any true emphasis on that. Someone created that. And they've come up with other terms like differently abled, which is balderdash. Because I'm not differently abled, I may use different techniques, or special needs, yeah, I may use different techniques, but so does a left handed person from a right handed person, so does a very short person as opposed to a very tall person. The reality is that none of that deals with the issue. And in to your point, I know that's what communicators really need to do, which is to create that language. And then the real issue is you can communicate it all day long. But how do we get people to accept it.   Kim Clark  33:03 And that's the beauty of communications, because we have a responsibility and a superpower an opportunity to drive accountability with our visibility, visibility drives accountability. So we can shine the light, right, we can focus on those areas where the work really needs to be done, and then demonstrate and share out the evidence of that work. So something that I do for clients is inclusive communications guides. And so this kind of shared language within an organization, every organization needs to have an inclusive communications guide. It sits between your employee handbook and your brand guidelines. And it makes it real it's it's it ladders into your diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. When it comes to language. So you're delivering it's, it's part of your evidence of your dei work. And in in my version of this d of these inclusive communications guides, I have a specific section on people with disabilities, I know you're going to be reviewing my section to ensure that it is accurate, but this whole idea of the language that we use when we are a part of the community, when we're not part of the community. How do we handle those cultural moments and those opportunities? Were those external like internal International Day of disabilities that we were talking about in October? Like how do we do storytelling that is authentic and transformative and meaningful? So that's part of the work, which it was part of that motivation of why I did the book is because we needed to clearly define the role of communications as communicators within nonprofits, corporate, any kind of institutions, whether communications is in your title officially or not. People managers are communicators. They're communicating their, to their teams. And they're the least equipped to handle social justice issues, for example. And so that's the that was how I approached Janet Stovall and said, Would you write this book with me because we need to help communicators come up with a framework to be able to have a strategic conversation on how to be proactive and transformative instead of performative. When it comes to inclusion, when it comes to equity and diversity, what do we actually mean by that? And especially handling social justice crisis situations?   Michael Hingson  35:42 So what are some of the words or phrases that people communicators and others should stop using when it comes to dealing or addressing or referring to persons with disabilities? And what would more inclusive language be like?   Kim Clark  35:59 Well, there's a lot of there are, there are some terms out there that are not like we were talking about special needs. You know, that was a that was a term that the community did not come up for itself. And we find this in a lot of historically marginalized communities is terms, phrases that have been created by people who are not part of the community that has been labeled on communities. And so the inclusive communications guide is created by the communities themselves in the language that they use to identify themselves. And I always go to people who are part of the community to gut check and vet the guides to ensure that it is representative of their experience. And it's, it's driven by terms and explanations that they say for themselves that, that they have the mic, it's not something, you know, for the Black and African American community in the US, it's not me for a white person to be saying, you know, this is what we call you in the census from the government state status, you know, and it's like, well, are the Latino, you know, Latino community, that is, so the diaspora just like people with disabilities, it's like the diaspora is, so why the range of experience is so wide so and yet we try to find these labels just to say, you know, as if they're all one people, or, you know, like, you know, people, you know, from Asia, and it's like, Do you know how many countries and languages and customs and traditions you're trying to like, lob into like one category, it really, it really erases people. And I think that happens with, you know, people with disabilities community as well, it really erases the variety of, of experiences and talent and expertise and knowledge that the community comes for us. So now, the first kind of step that I've learned from, from the community is to ensure that we're using language that doesn't demean or reinforce that stereotype and that narrative that disability is a lack, you know, a lesser than in comparison to someone who can see, for example, but actually reframing and helping people understand everything that you said it supports everything that you that you said is that it's just another experience of the world. And so but to put the value on sighted people and say, oh, and we've talked about this, Michael about, like, you know, accommodations and Manat people, managers being fearful of bringing somebody in and having to, you know, have accommodations and think that it's gonna be harder to work with somebody with somebody who's already created their, their way of getting through the world, and they know how to do it. And it's like, just let me do it. You know, what, let me do it the way I know that I'm set up for success and support me in that.   Michael Hingson  39:00 Is there a difference between dei communications and inclusive communications?   Kim Clark  39:07 Well, you know, diversity is its own thing. Equity is its own thing. And inclusion is its own thing, but you can't do one without the other. And there's others like justice, you know, people like to, you know, add, some people like to throw in the J, which, you know, if you use that acronym in a smart way, you come up with Jedi, right? Yeah, there you go. That's kind of cool. Yeah, so some people will put inclusion and diversity, you know, just so it's basically this declaration or proclamation of where their focus is. And you need all of it, you know. And they're all outcomes as well. So, in order for us to have a diverse, equitable and inclusive workplace, it has to be a part of the process. It doesn't magically happen by continuing to do what we have been doing, and then we get it a dei of outcome, we get differences in hit our measurements that does that doesn't exist. If you want the AI, as a result, it has to be a part of our process. So diversity in all the ways that it shows up inclusive of people with disabilities and a variety of disabilities, right. And there's, but you have to have that, like I was talking about earlier, you have to have people with disabilities in your marketing team and your sales team, you have to, they have to be hired, and they have to be, you know, retained, and grown. Right, listen to given autonomy and a voice. You know, and, and that's the role of psychological safety and team environment. So you can get those innovative solutions. But there needs to be equitable standards and systems access, removing the obstacles, providing whatever kind of, you know, I don't know, if you use the word accommodations, maybe it's just like, this is the kind of setup that I need. So it's, you know, like, you know, I might have a bad back. So I should have some sort of way that I am set up for success with my workstation. So what like why, let's, let's set that standard, to your point, like this should just be a given on any individual level.   Michael Hingson  41:23 So the the, we'll go ahead. And then,   Kim Clark  41:27 you know, so equitable access, so you're removing any kind of barriers, you're setting people up for success. You're compensating people, you know, equitable levels, promotions, sponsorship, opportunities, etc. So you're not holding people back. So equity, and then that inclusion is this ongoing verb, it's an ongoing action, it's minute by minute, moment by moment, paying attention, looking around to say, who's not here, who should be here? How are we designing this program? Are we leaving anybody out? Why do I Why do I not have representatives from that community as part of this conversation, so I can make informed decisions? Why am I not learning more directly from that community, so I can be an advocate for them in rooms and spaces where they may not be. So it's an ongoing thing that happens. So when you embedded in your systems and within your teams, and you're in, you've got it in your processes, whether it's from an organization as well as your team environment is how you operate within your team, that impacts the content, the calendar, the impact of your work, the words that you use, the visuals that you choose. And therefore you're going to start having evidence of that work showing up which is going to lead to those outcomes.   Michael Hingson  42:51 It's, it's interesting to, to think about all this, and I recognize the value of communications. And what you do is extremely important. But we are not seeing tremendous yet paradigm shifts in attitudes. So for example, I mentioned that in reality for persons with disabilities, when companies think about us, which they often don't, but when they do, or, as the discussions occur, it should be part of the cost of doing business to make an inclusive environment for all. So company, companies, for example, provide windows for you, for sighted people to look out. They also provide windows to be open to cool or allow heat in or whatever. companies provide fancy coffee machines to give their employees something that that they like and the company's value, providing that stuff, to a large degree, companies provide lights, for all of you to be able to see to walk around to look at your monitors and so on. In fact, companies provide computers and monitors, and will spend a great deal of money doing that. But if a blind person comes in, for example, and says, I need screen reader software to be able to access the computer you provide immediately, resistance goes up. Why is going to be? Yeah, because we're not yet valued sufficiently. And people can say that's not true. But the reality is it is otherwise they would recognize that the cost of doing business ought to include us. Those coffee machines, for example, are often touchscreen, which makes them harder to use. Now there is a way for me to be able to use a touchscreen device by accessing someone who can read the screen and there are services that do that. Then you get resistance again about even using those. We still have not come anywhere. Close to recognizing that persons with disabilities have the same or ought to have the same equal rights. Or I think as Jacobus tenBroek, the original founder of the National Federation of the Blind, a constitutional law scholar would put it, we have the same right to live in the world as everyone else. But I don't think that this society has gotten to that point yet. And we can communicate, and what you do helps. But again, it comes down to how do we truly make a major shift in attitudes?   Kim Clark  45:35 I would say it's the role of the communicator and the content creator, how are we telling their stories? How are we deferring and handing the mic over? What kind of videos are we producing? What you know, we have to be proactive in this and helping people understand what the opportunities are. So it's communication, it's telling stories, it's getting giving visibility, and, you know, driving that accountability, you know, starting with our own channels, but you know, we, especially for those of us who are internal communicators, we have access to HR, these are our stakeholders and business partners, we have access to it, we have access to customer care, we have access to facilities, you know, I've had many situations where, you know, I'll, I'll be working with a client, and they're like, We are renovating our offices, and I said, Are you working with various, you know, people with disabilities and your design of your office spaces, there's racism and how seating charts are decided, you know, you know, in facilities, layouts, that's something that has to be addressed. People who are wheelchair users cannot reach the mugs in the cabinet in the cupboard. That's not okay. You know, putting power strips under desks, where women with skirts, you know, have to climb underneath the desks in order to plug in their charger, you know, so, we have to understand and there is a wonderful research report that I refer to in the book, the conscious communicator book from Korn Ferry, talking about the, you know, kind of design of what they use it first, the crash test dummy, as the reference, the reference for all, you know, crash tests that do not take into account women's bodies, or pregnant people, you know, etc. And it in it spawns out from there, not just in crash tests. But I highly recommend people to read that research report, and just talk about this reference man leaves most of us out. And so in the design of our facilities of our seating, the design of our communications channels, how we are communicating when the words that we're using the visuals that we're using, we that is the power of communications and setting up narratives and setting standards of the shared language and how we are going to address you know what we've been so oblivious, to dealing with, up until this point, the opportunity, the potential of flipping through communications is exponential.   Michael Hingson  48:28 I was watching the news this morning. And yes, I use the word watch. I have no problem doing that. Because as we know from the dictionary, the word to to see is in part described us to perceive. It doesn't necessarily mean with the eyes. Anyway, I was watching TV this morning. And listening to a report about the Orion spacecraft that was launched, traveled around the moon came back successfully, really super. And a discussion of the fact that maybe by 2025, we'll have the first woman and or the first person of color to walk on the moon. Why not a person with a disability? Why not a blind person? Why not a person in a wheelchair? Why not a person who happens to be deaf? Why not all three, I haven't seen Jeff Bezos in any of his launches. I may have missed something. But in the rockets in the people who took into space, I haven't seen that there were any persons with disabilities and Branson sort of the same way. The fact of the matter is that there is so much yet to be done. And we have and should not take the approach of violence and I know that that has happened with with race to a large degree look at things like the George Floyd thing which should never have happened, but at the same time, somewhere along the line We have to have a major attitudinal shift. And that people need to recognize that we are as valuable. And as you pointed out with the whole curb cut effect. And as I mentioned with VoiceOver, for example, on the iPhone, it can be such a tremendous tool to aid in so many ways so that people could focus more on watching the road rather and listening, rather than what we do today. But we haven't got there yet. Which is, which is truly unfortunate.   Kim Clark  50:35 And I and I, I fault paradigms, over generations, where, you know, people with disabilities have always been among population, but that value of economic viability has taken precedence and priority over human experience, and leveraging leveraging all the beautiful differences, you know, and taking advantage of the talent and the expertise of how, however people have come to be. And that's a paradigm shift. It's a story and a stereotype and a narrative that has continued and been unquestioned, which is part of its intent is to not question it. And that's the paradigm we have to question I used to teach a, I still teach at San Jose State University, but a class that I used to teach was going back to my point earlier of what's being emphasized and what is being de emphasized. So when, when we are looking at our dei communication strategy, when we are looking at narrative, we have to be looking at who's been left out historically. And question that and say, No, that's unacceptable. That's not That's not how we roll. That's not where we're going to be like moving forward. And truly bringing in that, you know, because one of the things that I that I constantly have to work communicators through is the tokenizing. of folks. So you're mentioning Jeff Bezos hasn't had a wheelchair user in his rockets. I should have? Well, but I could foresee that there could be a tokenization of someone with disabilities, sure photo opportunity for a PR opportunity, right? We fall into that trap as communicators, like, oh, well, we need to have in this photo, we need somebody you know, who's different, you know, different skin color, you know, gay, you know, a woman, you know, those kinds of things, somebody with disabilities have physical disability, we need to have physical disability versus neurodiversity. Because we can't see that in the images and make our point, that we're a diverse group, right? So what we end up airings, we end up on the tokenizing side of the spectrum. And we need to provide more understanding and context around the people who are involved in whatever it may be riding in a rocket. Why the and the value that they bring to that experience? So what you know what, what kind of feedback, what are we going to learn from a wheelchair user who's going up in a rocket? What are we going to learn from that person, not just from that identity, but all that they can bring to the table of who they are.   Michael Hingson  53:24 Until we truly recognize that there is that kind of opportunity, and that people who are different than us are not less than us, it will be very difficult for us to move forward, whoever we are. And so I agree with you that the the immediate reaction wouldn't be tokenism. And that's what we have to avoid. But I think we can get there. But it is just a process. And it is something that we really need to do more to make happen. And I and I do hope we'll get there. But we do have a long way to go. And as I said, What makes it doubly frustrated is disabilities are the second largest minority in our country. And yet it is the most ignored minority by far. And so it is a mitten issue. Um, you mentioned your diet, your documentary early on, is that available where people can see it?   Kim Clark  54:27 It is online that you can rent it for like $1.99 because this was 2006. And, you know, don't judge me for my hair and my clothing choices at that. But yes, it's online. It's called God and gays bridging the gap.   Michael Hingson  54:44 Cool. And I think that I hope people will watch it. I think that will be kind of fun. Well, you wrote a book and we've talked about it. We've referred to it a bunch and we've also talked Talk about the fact that you wrote it with someone. But it was a number one Amazon bestseller, which is really cool   Kim Clark  55:05 in all three formats. So I'm very grateful for people who had been following us all year in 2022. We launched it in September, but our following just built more and more throughout the year. And they really showed up on the day that we launched it. And we are so so grateful. And it continues to show up around the world, people writing me and my co author Janet Stovall with you know, they're, you know, this is what I'm doing with it, I heard from a graduate student, who has said, I've come up with an assignment for the class, I'm teaching based on your book, which is wonderful, because as a San Jose State University lecturer over the last 20 years, I am building a course based on the book four year universities, colleges and junior colleges to have a course that's actually I'm going to be teaching, teaching a version of it, but I'm also going to make it available for educators. So it's available for corporate communicators currently. Now, anyone who does any kind of content creation, also people managers, it is very helpful. Can an individual take what the model the depth Model D PTH? That's our framework. That's kind of the secret sauce of the book. Can they apply it to themselves? Absolutely, absolutely. But we are making it available as well to universities, because we want communicators who are coming up, you know, and, you know, not everyone is going to go to universities and colleges, I recognize that. So it's available for others, I will have online courses available, I will have a book club and a conscious communicator community that I'm launching. So there's all kinds of different ways to access the content and practice it with other folks. Because that's, that's, you remember that I am, I'm about action, I am about evidence. So this, you know, everything that I'm going to be rolling out, aligned with the book, but also within the course, etc. is all about accessing the content, practicing it together and being in a community that is being very intentional about this work.   Michael Hingson  57:17 So what kinds of things do you teach? To help people understand not to say stupid? What's the word? Oh, yeah, stuff. That's it. That is not really what you wrote for the original title, but it serves the   Kim Clark  57:29 purpose. No, yeah. And that, that shows like The conscious communicator, part of the tighter title that was me. And then Janet had the second half, you know, you know, I'm not saying stupid stuff.   Michael Hingson  57:45 People are wondering what we're laughing about. The actual first two letters are sh and we'll leave the rest alone. Yeah,   Kim Clark  57:50 there you go. It has an asterix in there just for to be family friendly. But yeah, so it's it's been so the kinds of things that I'm most asked to speak about. I do workshops as well, but I do a lot of speaking engagements and consulting. Specifically around the most popular topic is from unconscious bias to conscious communication. So it's that the role of unconscious bias in Korea it that impact of bias in our communications, which can end up showing up like performative communications, it ends up looking like microaggressions. And so understanding ally ship and advocacy as an as a communicator and content creator, what's our role there? There's also a concept called majority coding, C O D ing coding. And that is about making sure that the dominant narrative is sussed out from our communication. So we are not reinforcing status quo unintentionally. Where do we disrupt that status quo in our narrative, you know, to the points that we've made over and over again, you know, during our talk today, being disruptive in that and so cultural appropriation, you know, when we're supporting events, and we have pictures of employees with culturally appropriate attire during Cinco de mio or Native American Heritage Month, you know, like really making sure that we're educating our employees that we are, you know, not reinforcing any kind of negative stereotypes around particular communities. So that's where we start my call. That's just that all that that I just said is where we start. So this is a practical application kind of lab experience whenever I do a speaking as well as workshops, and then there's the whole work around the book itself of the depth Model D PTH. What does it stand for? So, so depth The whole point is, you'll see this on the cover of the book is helping communicators bring depth to their organizations. So it's an acronym though it is D is for deliberate. E is for educated. T is for tailored. Sorry, I've got the P. P is for purposeful. T is for tailored, and H is for habitual. So it's a framework to be strategic and proactive. So you're no longer knee jerk reactions. When a social justice, you know, issue happens. You have the infrastructure, you have the relationships, you have your content, you have the people in place, you have the funding, you have everything that you need to be proactive. And we tackle things like, let's literally talk about PACs, political action committees, and what those what the companies that we work for are giving money to legislation, people will say, let's leave politics out of the workplace. Well, I'm sorry, but yeah, yeah, that we need to talk about that we need to have that kind of exposure to understand that companies are entirely making so many business decisions based on political situations, legislative support, tax, you know, benefits. That's why, you know, moving people to Texas, and I'm like, Oh, my God, Roe v. Wade, you know, you know, that kind of thing. So, we have to talk about those kinds of things and help communicators understand where the system has been designed to be performative. That's what we're hired for, rewarded and recognized for and how to disrupt it. And what do we need need to do to go backwards into the systems and processes to ensure that we are actually transformative, and that's what we're rewarded and recognized for, to help because there's, there's no doubt in my mind and, and 1000s of other people's minds that D AI is the transformation of the business going on right now. And if you do not do this as the business, you will be irrelevant within the next five years, just like digital transformation, if you didn't get on board, you're not here anymore. The same thing is happening with Dei. And we need to understand this is that strategic business transformation of the business, and communicators play an exceptionally important role in this work.   Michael Hingson  1:02:36 I was talking to some people yesterday about podcasts and their people, roughly my age. And so I'm 72. I admit it right. And they said, We've never listened to podcasts. Tell us about podcasts. And, you know, we're kind of old. We don't deal with that technology. And my, my immediate reaction was, that's a great excuse. But why do you put up the barrier to make it more difficult than it needs to be? And by the time we were done, they were going to go off and listen to unstoppable mindset, which I'm preparing. Everybody should? Everybody should? Yes, that's right. But the reality is that we all need to practice keeping up. And it challenges our minds, when we work at keeping up with whatever it is, whether it's podcasts and doing something like this, or just dealing with iPhones, I know any number of blind people who I see on lists who say, I need someone to tell me how to use this, or use this iPhone or use this technology. No, but what they don't do is go research it, they don't go look for it themselves, and do more to stretch and grow by learning to do it. And I understand there come times when it's necessary to have some help because a lot of times when I go research how to do something. When I go search to search for it on say Google, I see links to tons of videos and I ignore the videos mostly because they don't describe very well what they're doing in the video and they don't give me information. It's an easy way but it doesn't really help everything. So I go past the the videos to get to the other information stuff. And most of the time I can find enough information to tell me what I need to know. But we we really work as a society. It being often too lazy and not learning to research and not learning to keep myself constantly growing. When my wife passed away, the first thing or one of the things I started to say is you know I have to move on and it took me a few days to realize why I was uncomfortable saying that. And the reason I'm uncomfortable saying it is because I'm not moving on. She's with me. She'll continue to be with me, but I will move forward It should, we should all move forward, we should always work to move forward.   Kim Clark  1:05:04 Wow. Thank you for sharing that. And absolutely, there's, you know, there, there's chatter amongst the DI practitioner world that talks about, all right, well, if you learn to how to use a phone, because you feel like you have to, and there's so many other experiences that we that we can refer to, in addition to the phone, you know, being racist, or sexist, or, you know, etc, ableist, you know, it's just a matter of just doing it, just do it, you can you can learn a phone, you can learn to be anti racist, it's, it's a matter of being allowed, allowing yourself to learn, and make room and space, you know, for that learning, and seeing people with disabilities for their, you know, humanity, and what we have in common, and how needed unnecessary. Everyone is in society in this work, and to move forward in that work to your point, it's, it's necessary, and it's just basically required as a citizen of the global Earth. Really, you know, it's just like, this is just who we are. And this is what we're about. And this is, this is part of, you know, leading a very meaningful life is, is is doing that learning, no matter how uncomfortable it can be. It's the benefits are way outweigh the risks.   Michael Hingson  1:06:33 You mentioned politics and all that. And one of the things I've read on a number of occasions, or articles or commentaries about conversation, and that in our world where we have become such a fractured country, when it comes to political views, especially in the previous administration, according to the people who write some of the things that I've read, we've lost the art of conversation. Do you think that's true that we've really lost the art of conversation? How do we get that back? How do we learn to step back and say, Hey, talking about differences in different views isn't a bad thing, as long as we keep it in perspective, that everyone has the right to an opinion. But we do need to have a moral standard that we go by as well?   Kim Clark  1:07:24 Well, if we think about the workplace, and it comes from, you know, the environment that we grew up in, and then we bring that environment, to the workplace, and what what we do not have, or any kind of decent role models around having conversations outside of our comfort zone, because whatever environment that we we were raised in, whatever what was rewarded in the environment that we were raised in, and, you know, what we're bringing into the workplace culture is afraid to say the wrong thing. We don't have, it's not only that we don't have any role models on how to foster a learning environment. It's, you know, it's, it's, we have terrible examples, not just that we don't have any we have, and then the ones that we have are terrible examples. You know, like, we only see that the options are calling out, you know, for example, when there's a lot of options that we actually have on our tool, but to have to look at valuing a relationship with a colleague, in a way that we can have productive, maybe even healing conversations, but we don't, we're so rewarded within a capitalist corporate environment of getting it right the first time, you know, part of the bias of professionalism, which is an excellent article by Stanford innovation review, talking about the bias, they did the curb cut effect as well. But you know, talking about the bias, professionalism, it shows up in perfection, for example, perfectionism. And so there's the status quo, that is in the subtext of our corporate cultures that actually prohibits the the learning capacity, the curiosity, the willingness, the permission to explore these conversations amongst colleagues in a healthy productive way. So first order of business, go do your own research. Don't lean on somebody, like I shouldn't be only tapping into you on things that I could Google, right. But do I want to hear about your specific experience? And how communications and channels can be, you know, connect more with you? Yes, I do want that input. But are there things that I could go and learn on my own? Absolutely. Now, but I have to check myself and make sure that I'm in a place of listening and learning And then I shut the crap up, you know, and that it's not that I am in that place of humility, and, and valuing your specific experience. But, you know, I'm not rewarded for that in a corporate environment, I'm rewarded for having all the answers for getting it right the first time for being extroverted for you know, pushing things and making things go fast, and least resistance, you know, allowing bias to inform my decision making. And you know, what, we'll fix it later, or, okay, well, it doesn't work for, you know, blind folks. But you know, we'll do that in the next round. And then we never get to it because our budget got cut, you know, so it's like, these are the things that we need to challenge and and understand that we don't have role models, and we have terrible role models. And so looking at what that bias of professionalism is actually keeping us oblivious, and keeping us from growing beyond what has been allowed before to the point of really honoring, and learning and keeping our egos in check. That's really key in order for us to foster that learning environment, especially in the workplace. So we can begin to do the real work.   Michael Hingson  1:11:27 Well, the the, the comment about, well, we'll get to it in the next round immediately, puts a value on one thing over another, rather than truly being inclusive. And, you know, as far as this whole concept of, we have our role models, whatever they are, we have our own experiences, and so on, I feel so blessed with doing this podcast, because I get to hear a lot of different viewpoints, and brought that on myself. But every person I get

Kris explains why WCAG isn't as difficult as it first seems. This is not to say WCAG conformance is easy, but the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines also aren't impossible. Once you understand the underlying principles of WCAG, web accessibility becomes easier. Think of how so few websites were mobile responsive a decade ago. Now it's hard to find a website that isn't compatible with mobile devices. Accessible websites will be similar, there's just a learning curve while people figure out what to do. #WCAG #WebAccessibility #WebsiteAccessibility Kris designed the ADA Compliance Course (ACC) as instructions you can give your team to fix the most commonly claimed issues in ADA website lawsuits. The ACC is really an SOP for your web team. Your team can get started in minutes at https://ADACompliance.net/. Watch Kris on YouTube @adabook: https://youtube.com/@adabook Connect with Kris directly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/adabook https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisrivenburgh The ADA Compliance Course is available at https://ADACompliance.net. Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at https://accessible.org. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at https://ADABook.com. Transcript https://adabook.com/wcag-conformance-not-hard/

Kris Rivenburgh explains the release of WCAG 2.2 in a legal context. Because WCAG 2.2 is still a working draft as of the date of this video, we can't expect this new version to be incorporated into the law in 2023. It's also highly unlikely that any plaintiff's law firm will make a claim that cites to 2.2 success criteria. While litigation (lawsuits, demand letters) are unlikely to cite specific claims, what is worth paying attention to is whether any authorities such as the Department of Justice (DOJ) or Access Board reference WCAG 2.2 AA in rulemaking or legal activity. The Department of Justice is set to issue a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for website accessibility under Title II of the ADA (public entities). The Access Board may soon decide to update Section 508 to incorporate a newer version of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines as it currently uses WCAG 2.0. Watch Kris explain the difference between WCAG 2.1 and 2.2 AA: https://youtu.be/7vD0FnHJOR8 Kris offers accessibility services including WCAG 2.1 AA manual audits and remediation at https://accessible.org. Kris also wrote the book on ADA compliance for digital assets. You can find out more about The ADA Book at https://ADABook.com. Transcript: https://adabook.com/will-wcag-2-2-aa-legally-required-2023/

Cyber Monday has become one of the busiest — and most lucrative — online shopping days of the year. The National Retail Federation estimates that almost 64 million people will be looking for deals today. But for shoppers with disabilities, it can be a lot harder to take advantage of sales and promotions online. A significant number of the biggest retail websites are not compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act or Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, which lay out best practices to help make sites easier to navigate by people who are, for example, blind or hearing-impaired. Marketplace’s Kimberly Adams spoke with Josh Basile, community relations manager at tech accessibility company accessiBe, as well as a quadriplegic who uses assistive devices to help him navigate the internet, about how accessibility issues impact him when he shops online.

Cyber Monday has become one of the busiest — and most lucrative — online shopping days of the year. The National Retail Federation estimates that almost 64 million people will be looking for deals today. But for shoppers with disabilities, it can be a lot harder to take advantage of sales and promotions online. A significant number of the biggest retail websites are not compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act or Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, which lay out best practices to help make sites easier to navigate by people who are, for example, blind or hearing-impaired. Marketplace’s Kimberly Adams spoke with Josh Basile, community relations manager at tech accessibility company accessiBe, as well as a quadriplegic who uses assistive devices to help him navigate the internet, about how accessibility issues impact him when he shops online.

Você já parou pra pensar sobre sobre o conceito por trás do termo “usuário”?No episódio de estréia da segunda temporada do Extra nós vamos mergulhar a fundo neste conceito tão presente no dia dia de times de produtos digitais, explorando o sentido mais forte que ele carrega: a ideia de “design centrado no usuário”. Vamos buscar novos olhares e trazer alguns questionamentos sobre o assunto: o que queremos dizer com “centrado no usuário”, na prática? Que tipo de usuário é esse que advogamos estar no centro? E se existe um usuário no centro, o que e quem fica nas margens?O episódio é um passeio pelas complexidades do assunto, costurado com diálogos fora da curva com Alice Lucena (Design Director na Warren Brasil); Iana Alves (Product Designer na Work&Co); e Viviane Delvequio (Head of Research no PicPay).Além disso, a Fernanda Joris (UX Designer na Fjord Brasil) conta pra gente sobre um caso de acessibilidade para produtos digitais que foi coordenado pela Fjord para uma grande operadora de saúde internacional, com operações aqui no Brasil. Vem dar esse mergulho com a gente, bora!Ouça, curta, compartilhe e comenta com a gente o que você pensa sobre o assunto nas nossas redes:Twitter - @designaprender - https://twitter.com/designaprenderLinkedIn - @aprender design - https://www.linkedin.com/company/aprender-design-br/Instagram - @aprender.design - https://www.instagram.com/aprender.design/O episódio está transcrito na íntegra em nosso site, acesse pelo link abaixo:Extra: Usuário Fora do Centro - https://www.aprender.design/article/usuario-fora-do-centroLinks e recomendações do episódio:WCAG - é a sigla no inglês para: “Web Content Accessibility Guidelines” - em tradução livre: “Diretrizes de Acessibilidade para o Conteúdo da Web”Case de acessibilidade Pagseguro: https://medium.com/pagsegurodesign/desafios-e-aprendizados-de-construir-uma-cultura-de-acessibilidade-na-empresa-5638a8f52036Para acessar o manual de acessibilidade Fjord, escreva para: Fernanda.joris@fjordnet.comConheça nossos cursos em: www.aprenderdesign.comFicha técnica:Criação, roteiro e montagem: Doug CavendishEdição, trilha e mixagem: Manoel do AmaralDesign e identidade visual: Glauber SampaioParticipantes: Alice Lucena; Iana Alves; e Viviane DelvequioCase Fjord Brasil: Fernanda JorisApresentado por Doug Cavendish.Oferecido por Fjord Brasil - part of Accenture Song.Uma produção Aprender Design

Kim Krause Berg talks with Jason Barnard about better web accessibility improves profits. Kim Krause Berg is a renowned speaker and writer with an excellent reputation. Keynote Speaker - "The Golden Road Of Opportunity: Website Accessibility and Human Experience Design," American Marketing Association Experience Design Virtual Conference, April 15, 2021. She writes for Search Engine Journal with over 150 articles on usability, accessibility and SEO from 2009 - 2019 and has a popular blog called “Cre8pc” to share her ideas on Holistic UX and SEO as a methodology. Kim Krause Berg is the owner of Creative Vision Web Consulting, LLC and an early pioneer in SEO and website design starting in 1995. In 2001, Kim Krause Berg transitioned to human experience design and usability. She recognized the benefits of combining user experience with search engine practices. Today, she specializes in website accessibility and works full-time for BMTX as a QA analyst specializing in web accessibility. There are so many benefits that web accessibility can bring to people, and when we say people, we mean everyone from SEOs to people with disabilities. If your website meets the needs of people with disabilities, they will feel welcome on your website, and that could be a great way for you as a marketer or SEO to expand your market. In this episode, Kim Krause Berg and Jason Barnard discuss the issues, challenges and benefits for companies when looking at accessibility. Along the way, Kim explains distinction between conformance and compliance, and provides multiple insights into the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, including that there are many resources where you can read the WCAG online for free. However, the overriding question is how implementing the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines can benefit small businesses with limited resources, given the effort and knowledge required. Kim's answer is: it is worthwhile and it is beneficial to your bottom line, so spend the time and invest the resources to do it right. As always, the show ends with passing the baton…the delightful Kim Krause Berg passes over the virtual baton to next week's wonderful guest Limor Barenholtz What you'll learn from Kim Krause Berg 00:00 Kim Krause Berg and Jason Barnard00:38 Anton Shulke's Birthday Song01:00 Continue to Support Ukraine02:44 Kim Krause Berg's Brand SERP03:48 Alt Text is Important04:28 Why Google Needs to Write Titles04:40 Microsoft Providing Auto Alt Tags04:44 Alt Tags for Accessibility05:18 Why You should not Rely on Auto Alt Text07:04 How Do You Make Everyone, Including People with Disabilities, Feel Welcome on Your Website? 10:23 Preventing Magnification on a Website: Violation of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines11:10 Conformance Vs Compliance12:21 Web Content Accessibility Compliance for Small Businesses13:16 WCAG 2.1 Guidelines are Available Free Online18:42 Do People with a Visual Impairment Tend to Use Mobile or Desktop?19:00 Accessibility to Everything Around Us20:45 What are the Benefits of Improving Web Accessibility for SEO?24:46 Advantages of Video Transcripts25:54 Why Creating Video Content with Subtitles and Transcripts is a Great SEO Technique27:45 Using Headings Properly (H1, H2 and H3)30:47 Passing the Baton: Kim Krause Berg to Limor Barenholtz This episode was recorded live on video April 5th 2022 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Kim Krause Berg talks with Jason Barnard about better web accessibility improves profits. Kim Krause Berg is a renowned speaker and writer with an excellent reputation. Keynote Speaker - "The Golden Road Of Opportunity: Website Accessibility and Human Experience Design," American Marketing Association Experience Design Virtual Conference, April 15, 2021. She writes for Search Engine Journal with over 150 articles on usability, accessibility and SEO from 2009 - 2019 and has a popular blog called “Cre8pc” to share her ideas on Holistic UX and SEO as a methodology. Kim Krause Berg is the owner of Creative Vision Web Consulting, LLC and an early pioneer in SEO and website design starting in 1995. In 2001, Kim Krause Berg transitioned to human experience design and usability. She recognized the benefits of combining user experience with search engine practices. Today, she specializes in website accessibility and works full-time for BMTX as a QA analyst specializing in web accessibility. There are so many benefits that web accessibility can bring to people, and when we say people, we mean everyone from SEOs to people with disabilities. If your website meets the needs of people with disabilities, they will feel welcome on your website, and that could be a great way for you as a marketer or SEO to expand your market. In this episode, Kim Krause Berg and Jason Barnard discuss the issues, challenges and benefits for companies when looking at accessibility. Along the way, Kim explains distinction between conformance and compliance, and provides multiple insights into the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, including that there are many resources where you can read the WCAG online for free. However, the overriding question is how implementing the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines can benefit small businesses with limited resources, given the effort and knowledge required. Kim's answer is: it is worthwhile and it is beneficial to your bottom line, so spend the time and invest the resources to do it right. As always, the show ends with passing the baton…the delightful Kim Krause Berg passes over the virtual baton to next week's wonderful guest Limor Barenholtz What you'll learn from Kim Krause Berg 00:00 Kim Krause Berg and Jason Barnard00:38 Anton Shulke's Birthday Song01:00 Continue to Support Ukraine02:44 Kim Krause Berg's Brand SERP03:48 Alt Text is Important04:28 Why Google Needs to Write Titles04:40 Microsoft Providing Auto Alt Tags04:44 Alt Tags for Accessibility05:18 Why You should not Rely on Auto Alt Text07:04 How Do You Make Everyone, Including People with Disabilities, Feel Welcome on Your Website? 10:23 Preventing Magnification on a Website: Violation of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines11:10 Conformance Vs Compliance12:21 Web Content Accessibility Compliance for Small Businesses13:16 WCAG 2.1 Guidelines are Available Free Online18:42 Do People with a Visual Impairment Tend to Use Mobile or Desktop?19:00 Accessibility to Everything Around Us20:45 What are the Benefits of Improving Web Accessibility for SEO?24:46 Advantages of Video Transcripts25:54 Why Creating Video Content with Subtitles and Transcripts is a Great SEO Technique27:45 Using Headings Properly (H1, H2 and H3)30:47 Passing the Baton: Kim Krause Berg to Limor Barenholtz This episode was recorded live on video April 5th 2022 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Kim Krause Berg talks with Jason Barnard about better web accessibility improves profits. Kim Krause Berg is a renowned speaker and writer with an excellent reputation. Keynote Speaker - "The Golden Road Of Opportunity: Website Accessibility and Human Experience Design," American Marketing Association Experience Design Virtual Conference, April 15, 2021. She writes for Search Engine Journal with over 150 articles on usability, accessibility and SEO from 2009 - 2019 and has a popular blog called “Cre8pc” to share her ideas on Holistic UX and SEO as a methodology. Kim Krause Berg is the owner of Creative Vision Web Consulting, LLC and an early pioneer in SEO and website design starting in 1995. In 2001, Kim Krause Berg transitioned to human experience design and usability. She recognized the benefits of combining user experience with search engine practices. Today, she specializes in website accessibility and works full-time for BMTX as a QA analyst specializing in web accessibility. There are so many benefits that web accessibility can bring to people, and when we say people, we mean everyone from SEOs to people with disabilities. If your website meets the needs of people with disabilities, they will feel welcome on your website, and that could be a great way for you as a marketer or SEO to expand your market. In this episode, Kim Krause Berg and Jason Barnard discuss the issues, challenges and benefits for companies when looking at accessibility. Along the way, Kim explains distinction between conformance and compliance, and provides multiple insights into the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, including that there are many resources where you can read the WCAG online for free. However, the overriding question is how implementing the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines can benefit small businesses with limited resources, given the effort and knowledge required. Kim's answer is: it is worthwhile and it is beneficial to your bottom line, so spend the time and invest the resources to do it right. As always, the show ends with passing the baton…the delightful Kim Krause Berg passes over the virtual baton to next week's wonderful guest Limor Barenholtz What you'll learn from Kim Krause Berg 00:00 Kim Krause Berg and Jason Barnard00:38 Anton Shulke's Birthday Song01:00 Continue to Support Ukraine02:44 Kim Krause Berg's Brand SERP03:48 Alt Text is Important04:28 Why Google Needs to Write Titles04:40 Microsoft Providing Auto Alt Tags04:44 Alt Tags for Accessibility05:18 Why You should not Rely on Auto Alt Text07:04 How Do You Make Everyone, Including People with Disabilities, Feel Welcome on Your Website? 10:23 Preventing Magnification on a Website: Violation of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines11:10 Conformance Vs Compliance12:21 Web Content Accessibility Compliance for Small Businesses13:16 WCAG 2.1 Guidelines are Available Free Online18:42 Do People with a Visual Impairment Tend to Use Mobile or Desktop?19:00 Accessibility to Everything Around Us20:45 What are the Benefits of Improving Web Accessibility for SEO?24:46 Advantages of Video Transcripts25:54 Why Creating Video Content with Subtitles and Transcripts is a Great SEO Technique27:45 Using Headings Properly (H1, H2 and H3)30:47 Passing the Baton: Kim Krause Berg to Limor Barenholtz This episode was recorded live on video April 5th 2022 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Through social media, the news, and elsewhere we encounter stories of people we say are inspirational to us because they have some sort of disability. We can't imagine how they do the things they do. No matter how many such stories we find, we still are amazed. On Unstoppable Mindset, my goal, in part, is not just to show you such stories, but to give you a chance to meet the people behind the stories, yes those amazing people. Meet Josh Basile, a C4-5 quadriplegic. He wasn't born a quadriplegic, but he grew into the role after an accident. Josh will tell you his story and how he decided to go into the law. He will tell you how his decisions after his accident shapes his life today. I hope you will not be amazed after this episode. Instead, I hope you will gain greater respect and greater value for people who are different from you. Listen and see how such persons live, love, and enjoy life just as you do. I hope that you will see that we are not as different from you as you think. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About our Guest: Meet Josh Basile a C4-5 quadriplegic, power wheelchair user, disability rights advocate, and lawyer. In 2004, at the age of 18, Josh was paralyzed below the shoulders in a beach accident. Soon after he formed a 501(c)3 to empower newly injured families through SPINALpedia.com and its 21,000 paralysis-related videos. As a medical malpractice lawyer and disabilities rights advocate, Josh serves persons with disabilities both in the courtroom and through policy initiatives. As a community leader and change-maker, Josh works tirelessly to improve the quality of life the persons with disabilities and to continuously break down existing barriers to access and inclusion. To improve web accessibility and usability, Josh joined accessiBe and that accessFind initiative as the Community Relations Manager. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21 And welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And it's always fun if we get to have something unexpected happened on the show, and sometimes unexpected guests and we'll see how it goes today. We have, I think a very interesting person for you to meet today. He's someone that I met through accessibly. But he has a fascinating story to tell. And let's get right to it. So I'd like you to be Josh Bassel. Josh, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Josh Basile 01:56 Michael, it's great to be here today. Michael Hingson 01:58 Thanks for for coming. So you do why don't you start by telling us a little bit about you. Josh Basile 02:06 Alright, so my name is Josh Basile. I live outside of Washington, DC and Maryland. My life changed forever. When I was a teenager, I was 18 years old. I went on a family vacation to the beach and a wave picked me up and threw me over my boogie board and slammed me headfirst against the ocean floor. That day, I shattered my neck and became a C for fat quadriplegic. Michael Hingson 02:37 So, needless to say, you had a life changing event. What What was your reaction? How did you how did you feel? You must have experienced some fear? And lots of uncertainty? How did you how did you work through all of that. Josh Basile 02:55 So I guess we could start with the initial fear. So like, when I had my injury, I just remember hearing a loud crack. And it like reverberated throughout my entire body. And all of a sudden I couldn't move at all. And I was facedown in the water, I was unable to like scream for help, I was unable to turn my body and just kind of was just floating in the ocean. And all I could do was try to remain as calm as possible and hope that my friends would see me floating in would come out and grab me in and saved my life. And luckily they did that day. And then when it comes to fear of, of kind of transitioning into a new world of functionality and a new world of kind of dependency on in so many ways. I that was definitely a huge change. I went from a college athlete to someone that couldn't even brush his teeth anymore. And it was it was a big it was a rude awakening, but so much of it kind of for me to overcome it was about perspective and having a different mindset of, you know, there's so much with with my injury that I can't do, but I choose to not focus on that I focus on what I can do. And it's it's there's lots of little things that allow me to really always proactively continue to move forward. Michael Hingson 04:31 So we talk about the things that you can't do, I guess, you know, as a as a person who happens to be blind, you know, I hear all the time about how you can't do this or you can't do that. How do you how do you react to that? Being in a chair and being a quadriplegic? And I guess what I'm getting at I'll tell you kind of my thoughts is, are are that is it really so much you can't do or you have to do in a different way. way. Josh Basile 05:02 So for me, it's like before my injury, I did things, 1 million ways. after my injury, I get to do it 1 million new ways. And it's different. But different, could still be fun different could still be meaningful. It's just you know, the way I brush my teeth now is not with my hands. I do it through through the hands of a caregiver. I, you know, doing a different sport. Before an injury, I skied on my two feet. Now I ski in a sled with somebody behind me Holding, holding it. And you know, I've flying down the mountain. So there's a million different ways that I get to do new things. And it's just a matter of having the right creativity. And at the end of the day, it's really having a willingness to try to put yourself out there, and to experience all that life has to offer. Michael Hingson 05:54 The founder of the National Federation of the Blind Jacobus timber once wrote an article and Tim Burke was a constitutional law scholar, he wrote an article called a preference for equality. And he talked about equality, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. And what what he said is that a lot of people say, well, it's only equal, if I give you a pencil and paper and you write, you know, that's, that's equal, we're giving you the same things we give everyone else. And what he said was that equality doesn't mean that the equality means that you have the same opportunity, but you may use different techniques, different tools, but that you at least are allowed to, or you are given the opportunity to use those tools to be able to accomplish the same task. Josh Basile 06:39 Or yeah, with equality without it's, we all have our own unique experiences on how we do things, how we experience life. So you know, having an equal opportunity to experience and to participate, and to have different options to do it the way that you would like to do it, or the way that you can do it. But being being a part of this world, you know, so much of the internet is about, you know, people talk about accessibility. But you know, for me, it's almost more important for it to be about usability and usable. And it's like, there's different things of that nature that you can kind of talk about kind of equal access and equal this, but it's, for me, it's like, is it going to be functional, to my life to my unique world, and there's so many different types of disabilities, so many different types of functionalities. And it's, it's important that it works for the person that is trying to be a part of it. Michael Hingson 07:35 Which is really the whole point that equality isn't about doing something exactly the same way with the same stuff. Equality is being able to accomplish the same task. I thought it was interesting years ago, was it Jack Nicklaus, who had a hip replacement or someone and needed to use a golf cart. And so there were some issues about him going on a golf courses with a golf cart when everyone else had to walk. And they had to work through that. Josh Basile 08:04 It was, it was definitely it was a golfer in the, in the like the, around the 2000s, that that ended up having to do that. And it went to the Supreme Court, and they found that he was able to use the golf cart, and that it was a reasonable accommodation. Michael Hingson 08:20 Well, for blind people who wanted to take the LSAT and and go into law, there were a lot of challenges because the the testing programs required that you took the test in a certain way. And eventually at least they provided some equipment, but it wasn't necessarily the equipment that blind people use. And so it really put people taking the test at a disadvantage. And again, it went to the Supreme Court, ironically, lawyers of all people who ought to really be upholding the rights of all people. But it had to go to the Supreme Court before a final ruling came down that said, Well, of course, people can use the screen readers and the technologies that they are used to to take the test. Josh Basile 09:06 Now and that's, you know, that's always kind of kind of boggled my mind. How even within the LSAT, how there's so many different discriminatory factors that have that have existed over the years. When I graduated college, I decided to go to law school and I took the LSAT myself. And during that time, everybody that had a disability that had an accommodation there so anybody with accommodation, they created a flag on the test. And basically it's it told every single place that you applied every school that you applied, that this person has a disability. And only after while I was in law school, there was a class action lawsuit that I believe originated in California, that ended up like saying that you can't do that you can't that is completely against Ada, you can add, you can add, be able to disclose that a person has a disability during the application process. And there there was, you know, a class action settlement across the United States. But it's, it's, it's kind of crazy how that stuff is, is there and continues to happen? Michael Hingson 10:21 Well before your accident when you were 18. And of course, you're you're not that old now you're at least 25. Right? So before your I know, before, you're 36. So before you were, you were put in a chair, you you had your accident, what were your career goals. Josh Basile 10:41 before my injury, I was a business major and art minor in college. And for me, I've always loved the stock market. So I wanted to become an investment banker. And that was the route that I was trying to pursue, or I'd like a dream internship that summer, my injury and I would have loved to continue to work for my boss that summer as a as a career afterwards. But I'm definitely my injury, I flip things upside down, it changed life forever. And I quickly learned that my voice and my mind were my best assets. Physically, I was limited in what I can do. But mentally, and through my, through my advocacy skills, I could do great things. And that's when I decided to go back to community college, and I went to undergrad, and then graduated magna cum laude through law school, and it was a it was definitely a long adventure with the patient I decided to go through. But in the end, it was totally worthwhile and is open so many doors to an opportunities within the employment world. And I've very much enjoyed working for since 2013. Michael Hingson 12:04 So why did you decide to switch and go from investment banking into law. Josh Basile 12:11 So basically, just to become as strong of an advocate as I could possibly be, you know, with undergrad, I was a communication major. And so my voice getting really strong and my ability to influence others and change the world around me. And then I just knew law school would give me a unique mindset and approach to really taking it to the next level. And, you know, law school is incredible to it teaches you kind of how to think like a lawyer. And then you have to get in the world and you actually have to kind of have a specialty to take on. And that's when I took on medical malpractice and catastrophic injuries and help families all across the country, the lawsuits and helping them navigate kind of also how to get the community supports they need for independent living when it comes to caregiving or pursuing vocation through the vocational system. There's there's so many different elements to what happens after our college Strophic injury to kind of reenter society and actually have a better quality of life. Michael Hingson 13:16 But you worked through it, you chose to not give up, you chose to move forward and do something with your life, which is of course the whole point, isn't it? Josh Basile 13:27 Absolutely, it's, um, life is too short not to, to live, love and laugh, and put yourself out there to be the best you and you know, before my injury, you know, our let's say, after manage Dre like, Yes, I have a different body, but I'm still, I'm still me. I just have, you know, a sexy power wheelchair to get me around. And I've got different technology and different caregiving supports that allow me to do things that I would have done before. But it's, it's definitely one of those things that like you just, I try to I try to let families know that within this life, like I've mentored 1000s of families through my nonprofit determined to heal. And one of the big things is, after an injury, you need to learn how to advocate for yourself, you need to learn how to become your own best advocate, because nobody's going to fight harder for you than you're going to fight for yourself in your life. So learning kind of what it is to give you the best opportunities to give you the best supports, and to be able to be that captain of the ship as you're going along this life journey. It gives you a great power in what direction you're gonna go. And it gives you the ability to you know, accept help and that accepting help is not it's not a weakness. A lot of people think of an accommodation school as a weakness. It creates an evil Been playing field just to allow you to show what you have. And being able to get support through friends, family caregivers to help you along your journey is just, it gives you extra boost along your way along your voyage is basically having crewmates instead of sailing ship of one year sailing a ship of the 10. That's a much easier voyage. Michael Hingson 15:25 The issue of accepting help is one though, where you need to be the one to decide what help and and when you need help. Which, which is always of course an issue people, a lot of our well most of the time want to help and sometimes help when you don't need help, which which can be a challenge and of itself. Josh Basile 15:47 Yeah, no, it's it's hard. A lot of a lot of persons with disabilities are very stubborn. You know, I see it a lot within the paralysis community. The difference between a quadriplegic and a paraplegic. So a quadriplegic is somebody that has immobility in all four extremities. a paraplegic, has a mobility in two extremities. And so often paraplegics, in many ways, they, they want to do everything on their on their own and show their independence, which gives them their power. With a quadriplegic, you'll see somebody is way more open to receiving help, and is accepting of it, and is willing to, like, try and train somebody to help them do different tasks, but it is, it's the different mindsets of are you it doesn't really, for me, it's accepting help, doesn't matter. Or if you're paraplegic quadriplegic person without a disability, it's just a matter of opening your your arms to being able to allow others to be a part of your life and contribute. So many people just want to help because they want to, they want to give it's it's a good feeling to give. And it's, it's, it's it's kind of a different dynamic, depending on the personality of who you're talking to. Michael Hingson 17:06 Sure. And about. And then the reality is that, that we all should be more interested in receiving help when we need it. And we should also be willing to give help, and offer help. And I tell people all the time, look, don't assume I need help, and don't operate under the assumption that I want help crossing the street. There's never anything wrong with asking if I want some help, but accept the answer. If I say no, because there are also a lot of times that I don't want help. For example, when I used to travel around the world trade center, and looked like I was lost, I probably was and the reason I was lost was because I worked to getting lost. So I could figure out more about how to travel around the center and and learn things and there would be times I would ask questions. But it was important to learn the complex, because I wasn't going to use the same visual cues that you would use. Josh Basile 18:13 I love that about persons with disabilities that we we are faced with so many barriers on a daily basis. But that allows us to be kind of really fine to problem solvers. Like we're really able to like figure out, you know how to overcome challenges, how to get to where we need to go, how to complete puzzles, how to complete? Well, you, you name it, and it it's like the practice that we do every single day gives us a special kind of ability beyond many other people. And it's I think this is one of our greatest contributions that we can give to the workforce in general is that, you know, you you give us a problem within a company, we're going to be able to approach it probably a lot differently than than other employees that you have, just because we we do it every day we put our 10,000 hours in to become experts, expert problem solvers. Michael Hingson 19:14 I know that you have seen this and seen some of the statistics, both before and in your time at accessiBe and we'll talk about that. But one of the things that we both get to talk about on a regular basis is the fact that when companies decide to make themselves inclusive, whether it be in their advertising, whether it be in their hiring practices and so on, but when they decide to make themselves inclusive to persons with disabilities, the reality is we also tend to be more loyal because we know one it's harder to find a job when we're facing a 65 plus percent unemployment rate among employable people with With Disabilities, and to that, it's harder to, to deal with various aspects of a company, if they don't make it more inclusive. So when we find companies and organizations that are inclusive, we tend to be more loyal to them. Josh Basile 20:16 Absolutely, it's data statistics, you name it, studies have been done, and conducted that have proven that the disability community is, is either the most, most brand loyal community, in the world in the United States. And it's because, you know, we're not always taking care of correctly, but when we are, it's, we don't forget it. And we advocate and, and share with friends family, we'd let others in the community know that this company, this organization, gets it, they're doing it, right, they're welcoming, and those good experiences. We don't forget it. And we look forward to those moments when somebody gets it. It's, it's kind of, I think, it's amazing that we're having so many more of these kinds of conversations around inclusion and disability, and that companies are starting to get that this, this needs to be a part of their business, it needs to be a part of their their business culture. And the more that we do that, I think we're gonna see some major changes coming up in the years to come. But obviously, we're still a long way away. But it's, I've heard more about this in the last, you know, two years than I did in the last, you know, 17 years of my injury. Michael Hingson 21:42 Well, it's true, and we need to be more part of the conversation, how do we get more people to include us in the conversation? It's all about education, but how do we get people to accept us and include us as, as a class in the conversation, the conversation of life, if you will. Josh Basile 22:06 For me, it's always about having a seat at the table. Too often, persons with disabilities are an afterthought, because they never had a seat at the table from the beginning. And they they were just then recognized later on when enough noise was made that there that somebody was like, Alright, now let's, let's deal with the disability that are of our business or society of this law, have, you name it, it's just no, we don't have enough representation, and all aspects of society, in my opinion, whether it's within, within the legislature, within the business world within education, transportation, we need to have way more persons with disabilities being employed, being employed in positions of leadership, being able to have people get it from the top down, that that Disability Matters. And that disabilities is something that it's it's a way of approaching a system in place of availing inclusion and providing accessibility providing options for all abilities. And it's it for me, it's like it's a win win. If when when organizations get it, when legislators get it, and they incorporated there, they're actually just making it stronger. Everything they put forward ends up becoming stronger, because it it ends up working for more and more people and giving more options. It's it's, you know, people look at curb cuts. And you know, that's that's one of those things that it's made for persons with disabilities. But guess what, everybody that uses it is benefiting from it. And they don't want to live without it. So being able to put together more kind of inclusive pieces of the puzzle to society. For me, it's just a win win, but we need to have more people at the table to be able to make sure it gets done. Yeah. Michael Hingson 24:16 So you went off to law school. Where did you go? Josh Basile 24:21 David Clark School of Law at the DC Public Interest Law School. Michael Hingson 24:26 Cool. So you, you went you graduated, then what did you do? Josh Basile 24:32 So I immediately went to work. So I was in law school, I, I interned for a federal judge. I then worked at a law firm, and then worked at the US Attorney's office worked on the Health Committee under under Senator Harkin, and then I ended up getting an internship at my current employer. And after finishing law school, I just I continued working with him. And it's been there since 2013. And I've loved every moment of it. Michael Hingson 25:09 It's fun, especially when you can blaze a trail. Josh Basile 25:14 It's it's, you know, the thing with lawyers is all lawyers are for the most part nerds. And they're just very smart. They love, they love, either studying reading or are, you know, are willing to go the extra mile like, anybody that ends up doing law school and taking the bar exam. That's a lot of work. It's a lot of time, a lot of energy spent away from friends, family, it's a commitment. Um, so most of the turn attorneys are nerds. But as a medical malpractice attorney, and catastrophic injury attorney with a significant disability, I love it. Because I get to be an empathetic nerd, I get a B, you know, there for families in ways that most attorneys can't I get what they're going through, I understand what they need in place to have a better quality of life, I can communicate with them. And it's most cases that we take can take anywhere from two to four years to either settle or to go through the legal process of getting a judgment through the courts. And even then, sometimes there's delays because it gets appealed. It's a it's a long process. But as an attorney, with a catastrophic injury myself, it's, I really enjoy it. Because I get to connect with with my families more than anything, Michael Hingson 26:32 you must be in a position to help make a more powerful case. Because if you said you have a catastrophic injury yourself, you've been through it. Josh Basile 26:40 Yeah, no, absolutely. There's, it resonates. I think with the jury, I think it resonates with the judge, and also resonates with the defense, that's on the other side, when you're doing depositions, or you're doing negotiations, and they're like, this person doesn't need this. And then you're like, you know what they actually do, but I, I can have some lived experiences beyond the experts that we bring to the table that are saying what we are arguing, but, you know, so much of when it comes to bringing cases, it comes down to the Battle of experts, and both sides end up getting somebody that argues one angle, and then it's up to the jury to decide what what is fact and what is fiction. Michael Hingson 27:26 So you're working for a private firm today? Josh Basile 27:29 Yes, it's a plaintiffs firm. So we only represent families that have been that have been injured, Michael Hingson 27:35 that have been injured, right? Well, so in addition to doing that kind of work, you've you've obviously gotten some involvement in doing things like web accessibility, and so on, how did all that come about? Josh Basile 27:52 So I'm passionate about breaking down barriers for persons with disabilities, whether it's in the employment, world transportation, independent living, and when I learned that less than 2% of the internet meets Accessibility Guidelines. I wanted to do something about it. And I knew that I could proactively kind of know, I always try to first figure out what is the problem? And what are the best options going forward to come up with a solution, or at least, to be able to have a better approach at at addressing the problem, both in the short term and long term, and so much with the internet is about scalability. You know, we're talking about hundreds of millions of websites that remain inaccessible. And when I learned about acccessiBe, I did my research, I had different friends in the disability community, do give me their sense of it, and to test different product products that were out there. And what I learned was accessiBe was the real deal. And that this could be a great way of changing the world of the internet, and COVID COVID was happening at the time, which, for me, the internet became that much more important to be able to be to allow persons with disabilities to have access to the products, information and services that as we well know, the internet provides and, you know, having access to that improves quality of life and opportunity and I wanted to do something about it. Michael Hingson 29:32 How did you discover accessiBe? Josh Basile 29:35 So A childhood friend of mine ended up moving over to Israel and joined accessiBe's team in their HR department, and she ended up connecting me with with the founder, the founders of SSP, and I spoke with them. And next thing I know we're collaborating they wanted they wanted more persons with disabilities to have a seat at the table with an organization, so that they can learn and they can improve, and they can become a better business not only running the company, but also for serving the community that they are on a mission to change lives. And, you know, I, you know, hearing that and seeing that, and being a part of that, since February, I've just, I've been wowed by by them as a company, and SSB is just doing all the right things. And it's, um, I know, there's, it's been a long way since February. And but it's always been a forward moving progression. And, and as an advocate, I love I love moving forward, Michael Hingson 30:45 what are some of the specific problems that you face in accessing the internet. Josh Basile 30:50 So it's basically navigating a page is one thing, you know, being able to go from start to finish and checking out fully. Now I've been on a website where I'm using my Dragon Naturally Speaking, and I can't jump to a different forum, to be able to fill out my contact information, my address, or do a drop down to be able to see what's there. I guess, you know, if I'm only able to access specific parts of a website, I'm missing out on all the other parts that everybody else is afforded. without a disability, I use my mouse controller. To control my mouse, I also use an onscreen keyboard to navigate a webpage, I use voice dictation to type. And I also use a screen reader for reading. So I have multiple different technologies that I'm using at once. And if a website has accessiBe built in access, accessibility built into it, or usability built into it, I'm able to navigate it so much better and gain from it the way that it was meant to be gained, that people put information on the website for a purpose. And you know, it's just a matter of are you going to be able to access it or only be able to see or experience half of what the websites truly trying to show. Michael Hingson 32:15 I know for me, using a screen reader exclusively to hear what's on a web page. When we deal with images where there are no descriptions, or we deal with an element that requires you to use a mouse or it expects you to use a mouse. So as you scroll through items, the screen refreshes, which means you really can't get to see what all the options are without the screen refreshing and it takes you forever to go through it over just two examples of some of the access that we we face that I face and other people who are blind face and you face some of those things, things as well. And the reality is, and I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, we live in such a marvelous technological world, where it is so easy to make all of this stuff fully inclusive. And it's in some ways becoming less inclusive, because we make it more visual, or we want to make it more automatic to diffuse that little mouse to scroll around the screen. And we forget that that doesn't make the website inclusive for everyone. Josh Basile 33:24 It doesn't. And you know, we make internet work for everyone has not been easy over the past 25 years really of the internet, being you know, more mainstream, but it's, you know, keep working towards it. And the thing I love about accessiBe is that there's many different profiles for many different disabilities and abilities, and then being able to use those profiles, but then also to be able to have customized options below that to even further make it accessible or usable or making it work on how you personally want to navigate a website. And so many people with disabilities, you know, have multiple disabilities. So like being able to, like have usability options for for that is you know, through accessories AI powered solution. It's like there's nothing else out there that exists that I've been able to use that I have a physical disability. I've ADA HD and I have a reading disability. So incorporating all three of those things sometimes makes websites a little difficult to navigate. But then when you have the AI powered solution, I'm then able to customize with the mobility profile and be able to customize with other options with ADHD as well. I guess it's incredible what you can do when you give people choice and power and how they want to navigate. Tell. Michael Hingson 34:58 Tell me about the ADHD profile. Josh Basile 35:01 So the ADHD profile, basically, you know, allows you to have a better, I'd say, it blocks out kind of the top and bottom of the of, of your eye is so that it's kind of blurred out a little bit, but it's darkened. But then as a focus area where you can go up and down the screen, so that your eyes focus on one particular area, without having distractions from all over the page. So many websites, they try to grab you here and there, and everywhere. And you're with ADHD, the littlest thing can like, can pull your attention away and distract it. Yeah, I always like to, you know, there's a great Disney Pixar movie called up, and there's a dog and every time the dog sees a squirrel, because squirrel, and like I that's too often on a website, if I see something, my mind goes away, and then it's hard to get my mind back to where it needs to go to get the most out of the website or what my task at hand. Michael Hingson 36:05 So does it prevent pop ups, for example? Josh Basile 36:09 Well, I'm not I'm not sure. I don't think it prevents Papa fits in. Right? I gotta, Michael Hingson 36:17 it may be the way that the visual stuff. Yeah, Josh Basile 36:21 yeah, it creates kind of that, that perfect kind of line of sight of where to focus on and direct. I know that epilepsy profile for the pop ups in progress that is blinking or as motion. Michael Hingson 36:37 But but the point is that, that there are a number of different profiles, and it's, it doesn't necessarily deal with all disabilities within the artificial intelligence system. For example, there's not a lot for persons who are deaf or hard of hearing. But the other aspects of accessiBe do address that dealing with the ability to have video captioning, and so on. So there are other things that accessiBe now does and we both have talked about the fact that it's a growth issue that accessiBe has grown to recognize and put in place the procedures to deal with that. I Josh Basile 37:19 love that they have, accessiBe now as remediation services for PDFs, they have remediation for, for video captioning, it's like, all of these different pieces of the puzzle is what it takes to make a website accessible. And they're also doing manual remediation. And going in and making necessary changes either from the beginning or later after like it's, there's there's so many different ways of making a website accessible. Obviously, the best way is to always do it right from the beginning. Yeah, and you know, I even say even having a website that was perfectly done from the beginning, but then adding the AI, the AI powered solution thing gives you that much more power and choice, and how a person with a disability or multiple disabilities can experience a website. And it's, it feels very welcoming when it's when it's done like that. Michael Hingson 38:13 So what do you do for accessiBe Since you're busy with a, with a job in a law firm, and so on, but you do work with SSP? What do you do? Josh Basile 38:22 I'm the community relations manager. So I bring in persons with disabilities, disability focused organizations, to be able to work with us on our different projects and initiatives. One of my favorites is called Access Find where we are, right now if you go to Google, and you type in a website, you have no idea if that website that comes out of the 10 websites do the search are going to be accessible, more likely than not, it's based just on statistics of 2% of Internet being accessible, it's not going to be and that's a frustrating experience of not having confidence in knowing whether or not you're going to be able to navigate that website fully. So what access find is going to do, it's only going to house accessible websites through its database. So you go you go there and you're going to be able to know that all of the search results are accessible. And we're building it out. We have over 40 family member organizations that we're working with, to make sure that we do right with and all of these organizations have a seat at the table as we're building out the beta website. So it's gonna be very exciting. But come 20 22x is fine is going to go Live for the world. And it's just I just can't wait for it to to be a resource and a service for persons with disabilities. Michael Hingson 39:49 How do you think that the world will react to access find? Josh Basile 39:53 I think I think it's gonna be one of those things that everything around web accessibility, we We need to provide education for I think X is fine in its own right, is an incredible educational tool acknowledges the fact that so much of it is inaccessible. And that, you know, the Googles of the world had an opportunity to do something to make it easier. And they never took, they never took the opportunity or they they made a business decision that, you know, it is not worth addressing this. And the fact that exists, we took the time spent hundreds of 1000s of dollars to make this this in existence, I think it's just says a lot about accessiBe as a company, that they care that they want to do something for actively about making the internet more accessible. And they wanted to create a product, by the name of with the community for the community. And that I think that's just, I think I think it's just going to be a powerful message to share with the disability community and nonprofits that access find is, is going to be a great tool for them. Michael Hingson 41:06 It will be the first time that it will truly be possible for people to expect when they're searching for something, they're searching for a website, or a company or an organization, it'll be the first time where people with disabilities can truly expect that they will be searching among companies that are inclusive or are accessible. What happens if we find one that isn't an access Find, what happens with that? Josh Basile 41:37 So are you saying a website is put on the X spine and it's not accessible, Michael Hingson 41:42 or becomes inaccessible. Josh Basile 41:45 So that's just an opportunity right there for for the community, to be able to voice and to be able to share with that website, you know, that, you know, something happened over time, that yes, maybe your website was accessible at a moment. But then over time, it became inaccessible to the point where it needs to be addressed, you know, that the the thing with with web accessibility is not something that it's like you do it once and it's forever, like web accessibility is, is is a moving a growing evolving project, where you, you, you have to, you have to have things in place to address it consistently. Because websites are consistently changing, you know, with accessories, AI powered solution, every 24 hours, it does a scan of a website, to be able to, to fix different holes and, and things that are that might be broken or that change or that are new to it and to address those things. So it's when when a website does come up on accessory that was once accessible, but then becomes inaccessible, it's an opportunity for the community to speak up. And then we can reach out to that company or that website, and let them know that they need to address it, and give them an opportunity to address it, which is we're on this journey together. We want to make the internet more accessible. That's kind of how it has to be done. Michael Hingson 43:17 How will websites be able to become a part of access find. Josh Basile 43:22 So that's still we're still figuring out all the details on that. But they're going to have to pass a particular audit test, or multiple audit tests. And those audit tests, be able to basically use the WCAG guidelines to find out if you meet accessibility guidelines. And then once that once that is so it's accessiBe or access find is 1% not going to just be accessiBe the websites, it's going to be all any and all websites that meet accessibility guidelines will be welcomed. And we're excited to have as many websites as possible. You know, if we can have all 2% of websites on the internet that meet accessibility guidelines, a part of access find that for me, that'd be a dream come true. And obviously, we want to get that 2% a lot higher in the years to come. Michael Hingson 44:20 I think he just made a very important point that needs to be emphasized, again, that this is not just to be a platform for websites that use accessiBe. There are a variety of audit systems that one can use to see how accessible their website is accessiBe has one called ACE and if you go to ace.accessibe.com you can test your website you can plug your website into that and you can you can put the web address in and you can get an audit report and have it even emailed to you it's free. There are other places Do it as well, they all do basically the same thing. They look for the accessibility features that come under the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, what the World Wide Web Consortium suggests are the things that need to be an inaccessible website. But some do a better job of explaining what they discover than others, I've seen a couple that aren't very easy to read, whereas ace tends to be pretty easy to read, but they are looking for the same thing. It isn't biased in that sense. But at the same time, the websites are dynamic. And that was kind of what I was asking about that if, if a website goes up into access find, because it is found to be accessible. But then later, someone goes and tries to use that website, because they found it through access find. And it isn't accessible anymore. I gather, you're saying there's going to be a way that that they can notify someone of the lack of access, and it can be addressed. Josh Basile 46:09 There. There's absolutely there's a report feature. And we're still we're still testing out all those things within the the beta surveys we're doing with our founding members. But yes, they're they're 100% is a component of reporting when a website goes from accessible to inaccessible, or a lot of times with a count when it comes to accessibility. A person reports an accessibility issue, but it ends up becoming an issue on their end with their technology, or things of that nature, which is always interesting to be able to provide learning opportunities, both through the website or to the user of the website. Michael Hingson 46:48 You Yeah, I have I've found instances where people say that accessiBe or other systems that make websites accessible aren't working, when in reality, it isn't the the accessibility aspect of it. It's the way they're using it this user error or user problems or user something. And and it is important to recognize that there terror are ways for the system to break down at both ends. If someone wants to explore getting their website into access find, how do they do that? Josh Basile 47:25 So on access find, even if you go there, right now, there's a way to list your website, there's an absent Michael Hingson 47:33 what's the web address for access find, Josh Basile 47:35 accessfind.com Michael Hingson 47:37 Okay, Josh Basile 47:38 and then you go there. And there's, you can kind of learn more about what access finds about, there's a promotional video. But then there's also a way to join as a founding member, but also add to list your website. So we're actually getting those every every single day, Sara charge for that. Zero charge, it's completely free. Access find, is not going to be like Google or Yahoo, there'll be zero advertisements, it's just all about making an easier search and more confidence search for users with disabilities to access accessible and usable websites. Michael Hingson 48:18 It's going to be pretty exciting. And I'm really anxious to see it go live and to see people start to use it. And, and it'll be a lot of fun. And it's been it's been a long time coming. And so it will be great to have a way to do web searches and have pretty good confidence that you're looking at websites that are accessible. You and I know full? Well. I'm sure a lot of our listeners don't how much of a challenge it is to go deal with websites, especially when you find in accessibility. I had a survey that was sent to me by our health provider two weeks ago and and I've seen this happen many times. So the survey they wanted to know my perceptions of things regarding Kaiser at least I assume that's what the survey wanted. And I the reason I say it's, I assume is because it started out by saying Did you feel positive about Kaiser, I think it was or negative. And I clicked positive. And then it took me to a web page. So that was in the email. So it took me to a webpage. And the first thing on the webpage was I had to accept the terms and conditions or click on some something and that something wasn't a link. It was in no way labeled. There was no way to click on it with my keyboard or any of the features that I had. And I couldn't go any further with the survey. And I see that all the time. It's frustrating. Yeah, and and it is so unnecessary because it would be so easy to address. And I mentioned it because I did send an email back to the survey people. And I've heard nothing. That's why I keep asking about how we get more into the conversation, because the reality is that to make websites usable for all of us is not that complicated to do today. Josh Basile 50:26 It isn't, but it's one of those things, we, we have to do educational awareness campaigns, not only for persons with disabilities, but for small businesses to let them know that this is an option. It's an it's a, it's a it's an option that can allow them to, to get and better serve all all of their visitors. And it's that excites me. I know, I know, where we we've got a lot to do around education around awareness. And I mean, this conversation today is one of those things that, you know, it's got to start somewhere. Michael Hingson 51:06 It does in and it has to continue, and I think it will, it's a matter of continuing the conversation and becoming visible. And and we will continue to do that. Look, do you have any? I'm sorry. Josh Basile 51:21 I very much look forward to doing it with you, Michael? Michael Hingson 51:25 Well, I as well, I think we're we are making a difference. And we're going to continue to do that. Do you have a way of people want to reach out to you and ask you questions about access find or anything like that, that they can do that? Josh Basile 51:38 Yeah, the you can email me at Josh. Dot basil. That's B as in boy, A S as in Sam, I l e@gmail.com. That's my email address. Feel free to message me. Michael Hingson 51:57 Great. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. And I want you to come back as as often as you want. When you have things you want to talk about, let me know. Because that's the only way we're going to have the conversation continue. And we're going to make it happen. accessiBe has this goal still of making the internet fully accessible by 2025. That's a pretty ambitious goal, but we have a few years yet to go. So if we do it by the end of 2025, we got four years in a month. So let's see what we can do. But we have to start somewhere, as you said, Josh Basile 52:37 Mike, what's always a pleasure. Everything that you do and the hard work you do and it's just it's It's fun being on this journey with you. Michael Hingson 52:48 And it's got to be fun. Otherwise, why do it? You know, life's an adventure. And so it is it's a lot of fun, Josh Basile 52:55 fun and meaningful is what it's all about. Michael Hingson 52:57 Indeed. Absolutely. Well, Josh, thank you for being with us on unstoppable mindset. And, again, for anyone listening, we hope that you'll go to the website MichaelHingson.com/podcast M I C H A E L H I N G S O N .com/podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast. You can do it through any podcast hosts that you normally go to. And wherever you found this podcast, we hope that you will at least give us a five star rating. And reach out to us and let us know if there's anything that you're interested in. In hearing or knowing more about or any comments that you have about our podcast today. You can reach out to me, Michael H I M I C H A E L H I at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. I will respond to emails. So we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your thoughts. If you know anyone who should be a guest on our show, please let us know. Let them know have them reach out. And we hope that you'll join us in future episodes of unstoppable mindset Michael Hingson 54:16 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

More often than not when we think of web accessibility we think of the challenges blind people face with inaccessible websites. In fact, the lack of web accessibility encompasses all disabilities.   Our episode this week is the second part of a webinar series I conducted for accessiBe.  This week we will present The Accessibility Gap part two. You will meet Josh Basile, a C4-5 quadriplegic, who will discuss the challenges he has with the internet. Josh will show you from his vantage point why businesses and companies should make internet accessibility an important part of their presence on the web. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About our Guest: Meet Josh Basile a C4-5 quadriplegic, power wheelchair user, disability rights advocate and lawyer. In 2004, at the age of 18, Josh was paralyzed below the shoulders in a beach accident. Soon after he formed a 501(c)3 to empower newly injured families through SPINALpedia.com and its 21,000 paralysis-related videos. As a medical malpractice lawyer and disabilities rights advocate, Josh serves persons with disabilities both in the courtroom and through policy initiatives. As a community leader and change-maker, Josh works tirelessly to improve the quality of life the persons with disabilities and to continuously break down existing barriers to access and inclusion. To improve web accessibility and usability, Josh joined accessiBe and that accessFind initiative as the Community Relations Manager. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 A pleasant Good afternoon to everyone wherever you may be. I'm Michael Hingson. I and I am here hosting the webinar series we call the Accessibility Gap in CO hosting and with me today is Josh Basile. If I could talk straight, I'd be in good shape. Josh, welcome. Josh Basile 01:38 Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here. today. Michael Hingson 01:42 We're excited about this series of webinars because it talks about something that most everyone isn't addressing. And that is this concept of the accessibility gap. Last month, we did one, our first in the series with Curtis Chung, who is a well known assistive technology expert, a longtime consumer advocate. And we talked about the nature of the gap. And basically what we discussed last month was that there is a very significant gap between on the Internet, what exists, and the number of people with disabilities who can access what exists. And that gap grows wider every day, as more and more websites are created that are inaccessible to those of us who happen to have a disability. The world, the industry, and most all of us are not doing anything to bridge that gap. And we thought that today, one of the main ideas that we can talk about and one of the main objectives we have is to make you aware that it crosses disability lines, it isn't just blind people, although we tend to be pretty visible at dealing with the accessibility gap because of the fact that we don't get a lot of access to content for a variety of reasons. But no one thinks about the fact that it goes further than that, and that it isn't just blind people. So Josh happens to be a quadriplegic uses a wheelchair. And I've mentioned last month my wife has a paraplegic who uses the chair, but she doesn't have a lot of the issues that say Josh does, and Josh will talk about that. For my part, I have been blind my entire life. I have been using the internet, since it's been around I have found some websites that work pretty well have found a lot of websites that are not very accessible and don't work pretty well. And more recently, even finding that some of the websites that I can access, when people actually do the work of remediation of those websites. That is they work to make them accessible. A lot of content becomes visible and usable for me that I've never been able to access in use before. And I'm sure that Josh also has lots of stories about that. So Josh, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit. I think some of the people here know my story more than yours. So why don't you go ahead and tell us about you. Josh Basile 04:14 Thanks, Michael. So, hi. Hello, everyone. I'm Josh basil. So just let you know about my journey. I grew up in Maryland, and was an avid tennis player and loved all sports. And after my freshman year of college, this is back in 2004. I was on a family vacation at the beach and a wave picked me up, threw me over my boogie board and slammed me on my head that day I shattered my neck. I was facedown in the water unable to turn over. And luckily my friends saw me floating and they pulled me onto the sand and that was the start of being a sea for fact quadriplegic. I'm paralyzed below the shoulders. So I use a mouth control to operate my computer, I do have enough movement in my hand, that I'm able to operate my joystick, I can't even lift my hand off my joystick. But that's my level of injury. But I never let my spinal cord injury or my unique abilities stop me from moving forward and continuing to wheel after my dreams, I ended up going to community college after my injury, then went to undergrad, and then went to law school and graduated magna cum laude without ever flipping a page with my fingers. Technology's pretty amazing. And I think a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how technology is advancing in beautiful ways to bridge the accessibility gap. I have a nonprofit called determined to heal. And we help simplify the transition for newly injured families through information, videos, through adventures. We just try to live with an adventurous spirit, adventurous wheels and, you know, keep moving forward. There's no point to really reinvent the wheel. others in the community can show you what's been done before you and give you ideas on how to customize your journey forward. Mike, thank you for letting me have an opportunity to speak. Michael Hingson 06:11 Well, Josh, let me start by asking you a question. Because I'd like to really hear it from your perspective. What, what do you feel is the accessibility gap? How would you break it down? If you're dealing with it in terms of all of us? Josh Basile 06:26 I think the simplest way to think of the accessibility gap is we have accessible websites, and we have inaccessible websites that exist. And the gap is what's that divide? What how is it growing? Is it is the gap coming closer together? Are you getting to put more inaccessible websites, or they're getting to be more accessible websites at any given moment. And unfortunately, the gap is growing in the opposite direction, every single day, every single second, there's more inaccessible websites being launched than accessible ones. And it's just it's not the direction we should be moving in. It's unfortunate, but so much of it is because so much of the content management systems that exist out there, make it so darn easy to build websites no longer with manual coders that know how to build it right from the beginning. And right now it's just anybody can go and plug in and pull over and build a website with a click of a button and not actually put in the accessible elements needed for people to explore, understand what's in front of them, and be able to really, truly experience a webpage as any person without disabilities experiencing it. Michael Hingson 07:43 Let me add to that the gap is not only in the actual fact that websites are inaccessible in the number and the in to some degree, the percentage of websites that are inaccessible is growing. But we have another gap, which is really what leads to the title of today's webinar, which is different disabilities, same goal. The fact is that while people are making their websites and as Josh said is becoming easier and easier to do, what we're not seeing is any major effort on any level, to make business owners who make websites more aware of the need for accessibility. And we're not seeing those who really should be involved in addressing the issue. We're not seeing them increase awareness. Programmers aren't learning about access. The schools aren't training coders and programmers about access the content management systems that Web site creation systems, especially the ones that make it easy, like a WordPress or site builder and any number of other systems that are out there. They're not mandating access, and they're not incorporating access right from the outset. And the reason is because of the real gap that exists, the awareness gap. There's not much of anything being done to address this whole concept of awareness. And that is what we really need to do. I don't think, and I'm sure Josh, you would agree. And I want to hear you and what you say about it, but I don't think that anybody really Mullah is malicious and they're ignoring making websites accessible. They just don't know Don't you think? Josh Basile 09:44 Yes and no, I think there's many different sides of the coin of why people don't make their websites accessible. One is definitely an awareness issue. before my injury, I really didn't know anybody with a significant disability. And you know, my injury gave me a new perspective, a new way of experiencing the world, for me a new way of seeing the world, in so many different things that I never knew, or was concerned about. But a lot of the times, it's, you know, as you're building a website, so much of the business world look at it, like, it's, it cost me, you know, $100 $200 to build a website, and to make it accessible, it might cost me 10 times that amount, or even more, and then they make decisions on money, which, you know, in respects, it's, if it could be done right from the beginning, you wouldn't have that issue. Or if you rely on other types of solutions, that you can get it done in a much more financially feasible manner. But I think so much of it, like you said, is basically not knowing, not being aware. But I think there's definitely a lot of different factors that contribute to why the internet is not accessible. Michael Hingson 10:57 But I think that the majority of people if they understood, things like 20%, of all people are one out of every five persons in the world has a disability. And most of them can't utilize the web, the way the other four out of five can. If people who are creating websites understood that one out of five people aren't able to take advantage of their websites and thus do business with them. They would be even if it's just a financial motivation, want to make websites accessible, but it still goes back to that level of awareness that they don't know that and they don't know about accessibility, most people don't. And unless they have direct interaction, they probably won't. Until the time comes, that disabilities truly become a topic that we're as a society willing to discuss and bring to the forefront. In the past several years, we've certainly heard a lot about diversity with issues regarding women like women in Hollywood, we saw a lot of that dealing with the Oscars last Sunday, or different races and so on, and how all of that is changing. And that landscape is changing. But the landscape for persons with disabilities still is not because the mainstream of society has yet to decide to make its mindset inclusive, that to bring all of us in for whatever reason, it still is that way. And I think that's something that that we need to deal with. And hopefully things like this webinar will help raise some awareness and find that more people will become aware, because I do think that mostly people, if they understand want to do the right thing. The other part about it, Josh, is, as you said, it needs to be inexpensive, and it needs to be easy to make happen. And the reality is that there are a lot of people who have found some pretty easy solutions that have made their websites accessible, they feel that it has no one has objected to the websites, since they've put technology into play that makes their website accessible. So they're happy. And they're able to go on and do their business. And of course, that works until something doesn't like the the website server goes offline or something like that, then they don't have a website, or it can be that somebody says, you know, I tried to do something on your website, and I couldn't make it work. Can you help me with that, or they people will speak up and say, we have an issue. And then when that happens, the good website owners will address the issue. And hopefully that they have resources to make that happen. Josh Basile 13:52 When it's about the fact that businesses just are not are not tapping into the disability community. If you have one out of five different potential customers that could potentially benefit and purchase or access the information on your website. Why wouldn't you want to reach that audience that we're talking about billions of dollars of untapped customers that because a website's not accessible, that they can't fully reach that audience. And even studies have been done over the years that the disability community is the most brand loyal community in the population in the entire world. Once we are treated properly and cared for and acknowledged, we go back and back as repeat customers, to these businesses. And it's not only just us, it's our family members. It's our friends, because we speak about it. We talk about Yeah, we went to that place and treated as well. And we go back and again, we invite people there we let them know. We love being mentors to other community members. Michael Hingson 14:59 So tell them So tell me, why is there such strong brand loyalty when that happens, Josh Basile 15:05 because if you look, you know, there's 350 million websites in the United States, or that's tapped in with with within the United States. But yet, less than 2% of those websites are accessible. So just thinking about just businesses in general, when you only have a select few of businesses that truly speak and serve our community, you remember those, and you go back to those, because that's where you're going to get the best experience, you're going to get an experience with less struggles, less frustration, it's just going to be easier. And that's what customers want. And that's what persons with disabilities want. That's what anybody wants. Michael Hingson 15:51 One of the one of the strongest messages that any good salesperson learns is when you establish a rapport with your prospects and with your customers, when you get them to feel like you're speaking to them, not pressuring them, not just trying to, as a lot of people would say, buy used car salesman, sell them, but you're speaking to them, you are concerned about them, they're going to pay attention to you. There's so many examples of that if you deal with people in real estate, the good real estate agents will tell you that, although we may have sold someone a house, the fact is that if we keep in touch with those people, if we know what's going on in their lives, even though they're not going to buy from us for a while because they're not moving. They'll refer other people to us. And when they do need to move, they will remember us and they will come back to us. And and the reality is that works when you have that genuine concern. And the the 2% of websites that are accessible, are transmitting a message, we care, we are working to make ourselves available and accessible to you, whoever you are. And the result is we're going to be brand loyal. And we are brand loyal to those people that really touch us and talk to us. And that is I think one of the most important things that we as people discussing this today and people who create websites, and more important the people who are going to be involved. And the companies that are going to be involved in fixing websites, the most important thing they can know is it really is about the consumer, much more than the business. Because you may get a business as a customer. But ultimately, it's about getting the consumer, the users of those websites to both the accessibility that has been created. And then obviously, the products that you want. My favorite example that I came up with just on the spur of the moment, once a couple of weeks ago is that you can have websites that people work on and do things with and supposedly make accessible. But if consumers have a problem with it, it's like cat food. If you are a company that manufactures cat food, and you sell it to your customers, that's really great. But it only works until the cat tastes it. And if the cat doesn't like the taste of it, and if that tends to be a general consensus, you've got a problem somewhere until you please the cats, nothing's going to work. You know what I'm saying? Josh Basile 18:47 Absolutely. So I think so much of having an accessible website, just talks to like, like you said about caring, about respecting about just inviting someone to have a seat at the table, or to really open the door enough to let somebody in, that might be peeking in, because it's not fully accessible. And, you know, in order to truly experience a website, you need to experience all four corners of it, you need to experience all the pages, if you can see the product, you can read about the product, but you can't check out and purchase the product. You know, that's just half of the picture. That's half the half of the puzzle. And you know, that's the trouble of some websites. You know, you just can't navigate the full thing without you know, calling in a family member or friend to help you get across and to tell you the truth. Not everybody has those people next to them to help them at any given moment. So it's making the website accessible is just so important. And right now as the accessibility gap is going in the opposite direction. It's something that we need to do. And like right now we're talking about the issues which is the first stage of have an understanding that there is a major problem. And then it allows us to figure out solutions on what we can do to bridge that gap, and how we can work together as a united front to bridge that gap. And I'd love to talk a little bit about how we've done this well in the past, and how we haven't done it well in the past, within the disability community. Michael Hingson 20:23 Sure, but before we do, can you maybe give us a couple of stories of your own experiences, or what you've what you've experienced or seen about people who've had real accessibility gap problems in your community, and then I'll tell a couple also, well, Josh Basile 20:40 so too often, the way that I've seen this, experienced it, and just witnessed it from the history lessons of diving deeper into the wall into kind of the past, is that the disability community, as always, or for the most part, in an afterthought, products are rushed to market industries are created. And the disability community is not thought of until years later, when we basically, let's say, with with build, building a building, like before the ADEA was existed, buildings were built, and you know, if they were built accessible is one thing. If not, you know, later on, they would create a ramp to let somebody in. And probably the best industry right now that you look at it in recent years, is the ride sharing industry, the Ubers, and the lifts of the world, they basically came onto the market, crushed the taxi industry, which had regulations on accessibility, and then basically came into this new ride sharing world and had zero accessible vehicles out there for persons with disabilities. And it made it so hard to, to get picked up if you run a power if you're in a manual wheelchair, and really almost impossible if you're in a power wheelchair. And now, as years go on, enough persons in the disability community have spoken loud enough, and enough things have been getting into the media. And now these companies are starting to say, you know, we want to help this customer base now that we're being forced to. And, you know, we don't want to force businesses to do the right thing. But at the same time, it's the way it's been done over the years. And it's unfortunate. And as the accessibility gap becomes wider and wider, it's just, we need to keep the conversation going to let businesses know that they need to do this. Michael Hingson 22:37 Yeah, that's a good point. And continuing with the rideshare example. I was one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit a few years ago against Uber. Because Uber wasn't dealing at all with the issue of blind people with guide dogs traveling in Uber vehicles. Drivers would show up, discover it with a blind person with a guide dog and drive off. And we didn't even know that they were driving off or if we did no, because they said I'm not taking you because you have a dog and I'm not putting any dogs in my car. And they would drive off Uber's response was even at the beginning of the litigation. Well, we don't have any responsibility in that because all we're doing is matching drivers and passengers. So we're not involved in that, well, yes, they are their contract employees, the Uber drivers, we're not letting blind people in with guide dogs and the Americans with Disabilities Act specifically addressed that kind of a concept. So what took a lawsuit, and even now with the lawsuit that was finally settled, there are countless cases of drivers with Uber and and some with Lyft as well, that continue to not accept blind people, even though especially with Lyft, there's been a fair amount of training. I just read a situation last week where a woman after the lawsuit had over eight to 18 or 20 different examples of where Uber drivers would refuse to take her would send the information to Uber didn't get very many positive results, filed a case it went to arbitration and she got over a million dollars because Uber wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. So there's still a lot of resistance in the industry saying you're not going to force us to do something that we don't want to do. And the reality is that shouldn't have to be that way because there's no magic about a blind person and a guy dog that is well behaved going on any or in any Uber vehicle. You know, and that is just as true with the internet and my my example that comes to mind is when target refuse to deal with the internet and making their web site accessible for blind people back in the early 2000s. And it took a lawsuit filed by the National Federation of the Blind, and an $8 million settlement to get target to finally address the issue. It wouldn't have cost anywhere near that for target just to go off and make the website accessible, but they weren't going to be forced. And that's unfortunate, because they were missing up to one out of five persons in the United States or in the world, their worldwide, being able to use the website. And I don't know whether Target has addressed the issue for all disabilities. And I think that's a very relevant point for us to deal with. Your website isn't accessible unless it's really dealing with all disabilities. It isn't just being blind, it isn't just dealing with what a person in a chair a quadriplegic has to deal with, take a person with epilepsy, and they go to your website and start to see a lot of different blinking elements on the site that can invoke seizures, it's just as pertinent even persons who are deaf or hard of hearing, oftentimes without having good captioning. And without videos being captioned, can be a problem for blind people, those same videos, without audio descriptions of the videos, that can be a problem. There's a lot to accessibility. And it is something that we all do need to address. Josh Basile 26:32 Well, it's the unique functionality that you're saying, of almost, you know, for each person with a disability, we're experiencing a website differently based on our unique abilities. I find it amazing that, you know, we have AI solutions now, that can create profiles, based on your functionality where you go to a website, where if you have epilepsy, you can click a button, and it can turn off, you know, gifts and other types of blinking lights. Or if you have a cognitive disability, it can make that information that's on the page easier to absorb. Or if you have a quadriplegic, you can use keyboard navigation, to be able to get through all the dropdowns and get through all the different parts of the page. And for the blind community. It has so many different integrations with jaws, and screen readers and other things of the sort. The biggest thing that, you know, we have the ability now through technology to have a united front on how we can come together to make websites accessible. Too often, if you look in the history, and just I see it, I live outside Washington, DC. And when I go to Capitol Hill to advocate, it's always every unique disability group advocating for themselves and having a fight with legislators, please help us. But what too often doesn't happen is that we have a united front of all disability groups coming together for you know, a mission to make a particular thing accessible. And I think that's what we need to change with the internet like we are going in the wrong direction when it comes to the widening gap. And the only way to bridge it is if we all come together, persons with disabilities, unique populations of persons with disabilities, persons without disabilities, people that are manual coders, people that are in the artificial intelligence world, the more and more people we come together in the business community, we all unite under a common mission to make the internet more accessible. And we can do beautiful things together if we do that. But the trouble is, how do we get messages like we have in today's webinar out to the world to start a movement to get people involved to get people to have a call to action. And I hope we're starting that right now. And I know other people chimed in about this in the past, but we just got to keep having this conversation. Michael Hingson 28:55 And you know, it is true that people with different disabilities do have in some senses different needs. And there's relevance in advocating for specific needs. But there are also areas of commonality. And it would be very difficult to imagine that the reality of making the internet accessible for you, is really different than making it accessible. For me. It's all about access. It's something that we all should work on together. And we need to get more business owners and more of the companies that are involved in making the internet accessible to work together. There's not just one way to make the Internet accessible there. There are some who say that there are some who say the only way to do it is you got to code it. You got to do it right. By hand. There are those who say the only way you're truly going to make it happen is if you start with accessibility right from the outset. Well that's definitely true. That is, if everything were such that you could not create or publish an internet website and content without ensuring its accessibility because the technology demanded it, then a lot of things would go away and there would be access. But the reality is, that's not working for us. So the ideal is a wonderful thing. But it is an ideal, and it isn't something that anyone is going to make happen in the near future. So you do have a lot of different other kinds of alternatives and aspects that need to be addressed. So that the fact is that whether it's being done through artificial intelligence, or whether it's being done through manual coding, the goal is the same, the results will be the same. And the deed, certainly that is the need to make websites accessible, is the same. And the reaction, the reality is that should all be a unified front, you know, we'll see, maybe things like the World Wide Web Consortium will recognize that and that is, of course, where a lot of the standards come from. And I guess it's relevant that we talk about standards just a little tiny bit. That is to say, there are standards, there are guidelines, well, not so much standards today as guidelines that say this is what you need to do to have a website be accessible. And those generally rely on putting in codes, and in doing the website accessibility remediation through a coding process. But that doesn't work. Because it's a one by one kind of a solution. That is you got to do it to each website. Well, now we're finding that some companies, and I will mention accessiBe is the one that I know, of course, I'm a little bit I won't say bias, but oriented toward accessiBe because I've seen it. But the fact is, artificial intelligence is a solution that will help make websites accessible, it's doing it. And that makes perfect sense. Because artificial intelligence is all around us in the world, whether we happen to have an echo from Amazon of Google Home, whether we have technologies that that use other ways of interacting with the internet, we have Netflix and other websites that use artificial intelligence to talk about our shopping habits. For heaven's sakes, Apple just updated their iPhone iOS software, because Apple felt that there were too many websites or companies that were invading the privacy of users and looking at what they do, and using that to customize advertising. That's AI, right. So it is all around us. But we all could work together. And we all could resolve and solve pretty quickly this accessibility gap, don't you think? Josh Basile 32:50 working together is basically everything you said is we have to have many different pieces of the puzzle. In order to do this, we can't just have one piece of the puzzle and expect the whole picture to come out. But with that being said, I'm a big believer, you know, my my world as a quadriplegic, it was 20 3040 years ago, the difference in my life is has always been technology, technology changes everything, for someone that is paralyzed below the shoulders. And when it comes to the internet, I think we're getting to a point where, because of artificial intelligence solutions, we now have scalable ways of really attacking the accessibility gap in ways that never existed before. And it's only gonna get better as we invest more time, resources and energy, like you said, into artificial intelligence, machine learning, all these other components that where we can break down those accessibility barriers, with either just embedding a specific piece of code that ends up going over the website, behind the scenes with computer software, like the manual coding, yes, if you can do it right from the beginning with manual coding, that is an awesome option. But the second that you update that website, you have to go back and make sure that it's accessible again, because if you don't have that accessibility element and for updated information, you know, you're closing the door slowly and slowly on that website when it comes to accessibility. Michael Hingson 34:21 And that's part of the the challenge that a lot of businesses have is that the only way to do that if you're coding is you've got to keep someone on retainer. And if we use the last year as an example, the pandemic has made that all the more difficult because the money just isn't there to do that. But even in a non pandemic time for smaller businesses that that want to create accessibility if you have to keep someone retained. That's going to significantly eat into your profits. Should you do it. You got to find a way to keep the website accessible but remember part of the justification Is that you're going to have a lot more potential traffic going to your site. And if you start to tell people, hey, my websites accessible, come and see me. People who come and discover that will, because of that Nielsen study that we talked about earlier, will be brand loyal, I can tell you from personal experience, that's always going to be the case. And I've been in sales and marketing, since, well, literally since 1976. But even before then, I've been in sales my entire life, because as a blind person, I've had to sell just to convince people to let me take my diet guide dog somewhere, long before the ADEA, I've had to sell in so many ways, all of us have Josh, you've had to sell to convince people and as a lawyer, you're always selling. And I don't mean that in a negative way you are arguing a case is a sales presentation in a broad sense. Josh Basile 35:53 For me, it's always advocacy, ever since my injury. So when I was first injured, I was on a ventilator for five weeks, and wasn't able to speak a word, I was only able to blink with my eyes to communicate with my family. And ever since that day that I got my voice back. I promised myself I would never be silenced again. So I've exercised my vocal muscles, my my vocal, my advocacy with my mind to make sure that every word counts. And so much of what we're doing right now is figuring out how can we advocate for a more accessible internet. And we, because we live it, because we speak disability, we understand what we need to do to make this possible. And we need to do it together, we need to have actual solutions that are scalable, and we need to attack the 315 million websites that exist right now to make them accessible is not going to be an easy feat. But the if we don't do something about it, it's just going to get wider and wider. And that scares me. Michael Hingson 36:56 And it's 350 million, by the way and growing. And that's of course, the issue. I am on some email lists, I've got a cut down on the number of unsolicited emails I get. But I'm seeing a number that talk about how Amazon is changing the way it operates. And so join this webinar to learn how you can set up a sales system with Amazon and sell products on Amazon, even if you don't have your own or how you can set up a system to do this or that or whatever. All of those are websites. And all of those websites come without any specific process of making them accessible. So Shopify is a major marketing system that's out there, and you can get a website set up on Shopify, but the basic Shopify system doesn't, in of itself, create real accessibility, a website might be usable, because the words are there, although we may or may not be able to see the pictures. One of the interesting things about Shopify, having looked at it from the the viewpoint of accessibility is that there is someone who has put something up that says that if you have a Shopify website, here's how you can put accessibility on it. Whether it's accessiBe, or something else, the bottom line is, we mostly aren't paying attention to it still. And that's the gap and it's going to continue to grow. Josh Basile 38:27 Well, I think that this year alone with the pandemic, just shows how much we we rely on the internet to access the world. We've all been stuck in our homes for so long. Can you imagine, you go to persons with disabilities, let's say you know, everybody that's that doesn't have a disability. And you gave them the problems that we faced with internet accessibility. There would be outrage, people would not people would be so mad that they couldn't access the world. And the fact is that, you know, we've had to live this year with a lot of this and accessibility and it's getting wider. It's I think the pandemic is one of those moments in time that it's going to push persons with disabilities to realize that if we don't do something now, we're gonna I want to say too late, because I think as technology advances, more and more breakthroughs can happen. But we this is the time to do something about it. Michael Hingson 39:24 Research In Motion was the company that invented the Blackberry, and I know how familiar you are with the Blackberry. But there was one night when their servers dropped. And people went 12 hours without being able to use their blackberries. And I heard and read reports about how people panicked they couldn't get anything done. And it was a night by the way here in the US. Some people committed suicide over it. A lot of people were very stressed because their access to the world as they viewed it was gone. and it can happen in so many ways. For us, the access is gone a lot most of the time. And what we're saying is, let us be part of the solution. Let us be invited to the party, and let us have access. We want to help you make it happen. We're not trying to abuse anyone. But no one should resist the concept of trying to bridge the gap. Josh Basile 40:31 Absolutely. And so right now, we were about 45 minutes, and I was just looking at, and I would love for our participants, the people at our party, our webinar party to ask any questions, so we can keep these conversations going. So please go to the chat. And let us know your questions. And we can Moderator 40:50 So guys, we already have a few questions. We can definitely attend. Michael Hingson 40:54 Let me just before you start, we started about three minutes late. So we'll go until well, I'm on the West Coast, and Josh is on the east coast. So we'll go to 103 or 403. Or we're Gil is it's later than that. Go ahead, Gil. Moderator 41:10 Yeah, it will start and thank you. Michael Hingson 41:11 Thank you for being here. Gillen, for staying awake for us. For sure. For Moderator 41:15 sure. As Michael, it's my pleasure. So we'll start and say that because there were a few people were asking if we're gonna publish this or oracare archive these recording. So we'll definitely be using social assets. Yeah. So the first question we got from the audience, is there a cookbook that define the necessary accessible elements for a variety of cryptic, categorial disabilities? Michael Hingson 41:42 There is, and Josh can add to it. But again, the World Wide Web Consortium has created guidelines and things that it says needs to be involved in an accessible website. I want to, though say that those standards don't guarantee accessibility. That is to say accessibility goes beyond whatever guidelines that are created to talk about how to code a website, how artificial intelligence can make a website accessible. The fact is a website is accessible if ultimately, it is fully functional and usable. And so one of the examples I would give is, I have a website and I think I gave this example last time, but it's worth repeating. My website was updated earlier, well, late last year now, actually, in August or September. And when it was updated, it was done by a person who I discovered didn't really have a lot of expertise in accessibility. But he updated it and there were images on the website. There were other things on the website. And one of the specifics on the website was pictures of me and my guide, dog, Roselle, who you can for those of you who can see it, Roselle is behind me over my right shoulder. Roselle and I were in the World Trade Center on September 11. And we escaped I was the Mid Atlantic region's sales manager at the time for a company and artificial intelligence when we brought accessiBe onboard. Artificial Intelligence interpreted that image as man in black suit hugging yellow Labrador retriever, which is correct. That's exactly right. But that's not really saying what that image is showing that I would want people to know, what I want people to know is Michael Hanson, hugging Roselle. And, you know, the process will continue to improve. But the standards would have said, if the all tags were put in the image was described, even though it's not what I would want it to be. So there are standards and Josh, if you want to talk about that, but I'm just saying it does go beyond the standard as well. Josh Basile 44:00 So I think you answered that very well, Michael. Moderator 44:04 Great. So Michael, we talked about you took you talked about the person who will create your website and this, this is a great, so we're for the next question. Who do you think should be responsible of the accessibility of the website? Is it the website owner or the person or the agencies that creating the website? And how can you? How can you know if your website is accessible or not? Josh Basile 44:29 In my opinion, I firmly believe we all need to be accountable. If you're a website owner, if you run an organization, if you run a business, you need to understand all of your consumers and you need to serve all of your consumers. So just because so at any given moment, you're always thinking about all these different demographics that you're serving. And if you end up forgetting one of those demographics, you're losing out and and I think the response to ability has to be on those that can be held accountable with the decision makers. And you know, as a decision maker, you need to take the extra time to dive deeper into making sure that your business is reaching the max number of people. And so that's my opinion to that go. Michael Hingson 45:20 Yeah, I think, ultimately speaking, if you're going to do and ultimately speaking, it would be the website owner, that is they're responsible for their website. And they should be obligated to make sure that their website is accessible. So I think in one sense, they're responsible. But I am also with Josh, we're all part of the solution. So when we discover websites, we should contact the owner. And I'm going to comment on that statement in just a second. But we should contact the owner and say, you know, your website is not accessible. The reality is a lot of us who have disabilities who are in the disabled community of persons with disabilities, we know enough to suggest places to go or what you need to do, we can introduce website owners, and I think that they should be responsible for, for making the website accessible, but we can help with that. Josh Basile 46:23 A good point there, Michael, it's, you know, it's not just the accountability of the website owner, but us as a community to have that conversation to let them know when it's not, because it's just not I was on a friend's website the other day, and I saw a few broken videos, you know, until he or she knew that those videos were broken, it was gonna go undiscovered control, that owner stumbled upon it themselves. So I think having that discussion about accessibility, you know, brings accessibility to light, and people start making it a point to do it. Michael Hingson 46:56 I absolutely agree. And I think that the companies that are involved in website access, need to and making websites accessible, need to be part of the solution, in a general way, and certainly, different companies are going to promote their products. But I think they should also provide people with just general conceptual articles, general conversations, discussions about accessibility. And, yes, we all promote our own products. But you know, there are a lot of colleges and universities in the United States, for example, and in most countries, and we compete for students, in our colleges and universities. But what we don't see is by and large colleges and universities saying, Well, anybody that goes to this kind of school is really going to a scumbag organization. Maybe they do it, and I haven't seen it. But the reality is that colleges and universities promote their programs, but they generally tend to do it in a positive way. And they don't deny the fact that if somebody goes to another school unless it truly demonstrates that it's not a good school for all sorts of reasons that we don't need to go into here. But unless they demonstrate that, then the fact is, we all need a college education. And the first thing colleges and universities will tell you is you need a college education, which is of course what they're promoting. And they'll say even if you don't go to to Harvard, but you go to the University of Southern California, that's good school. And so sorry, we didn't get you. We think that we're better but you went there, you're still getting a college education. And that's important. Moderator 48:43 Moving forward to the thank you so much for that. Moving forward to the next question. Can you provide some examples of website in the 2%? weren't doing this? Well? Michael Hingson 48:56 Gil, or Josh, do you want to or? Josh Basile 48:59 I think, yeah, I'd like to see how Okay, Michael Hingson 49:02 okay. I'm going to just send people to the access of the website because there are a list of sites that they use, or that they have remediated, and you can go there and see them. I'll name a few Oreo calm, which is the company that makes Oreos Energizer the battery company. I learned last week that the Los Angeles Lakers store Lakers store.com is accessible. You can go to any of the consumer organizations like the National Federation of the Blind. They have they have not used accessiBe but they have made their website accessible to a good degree, although there's more work that can be done to do that. There are a number of sites that are out there. By the way, if you want to know and I think you've asked this skill if you want to know if a website's accessible. You can go to accessiBe.com www.accessibe.com, where you will also see something mentioned called A C E. ACE is a free website audit tool, and there are a number of them out there. But ACE is a free website audit tool that you can use in will ask you to type in a web site name. And then it will audit that site and tell you based on the World Wide Web Consortium guidelines, the web Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and so on, it will tell you how accessible that site is. And so that's another place to go to look at whether a website is accessible or not. But ultimately speaking, what you can do is to go visit a website and see how usable it is. And how usable it is needs to include. If you're blind, for example, the things that you don't see, and they and even though you don't know about them, that's where programs like Ace can help. And you can learn about them. There are so many examples of people who thought their websites were accessible and didn't do anything. But as I said, they don't do menus, they don't do image descriptions. And they don't do other things that give us the information that we need to have. Josh Basile 51:18 With that in mind. It's a question from James that the vast majority of 350 million websites are small businesses or smaller, what tools can those small businesses and nonprofits use and survive the costs? So I know, first of all, you know what I'm going to say. The small business purposes, yeah, accessiBe provides the services at a much much lower rate than manual coding. thing I love about the nonprofit of that is that accessiBe, as we said that they are going to provide the accessory services 100% free for nonprofits. So for like my nonprofit, I was able to get it up and running for free, and which I'm now loving so much. So all in all profits, it's just sharing that with your communities that this exists for them is an incredible, I'm making it accessible. Michael Hingson 52:10 I'm on the board of a nonprofit that added accessiBe independent of me to their website about a month ago, accessiBe has also said that if anyone knows, or is involved with a COVID-19 site, especially vaccination websites, and so on, that accessiBe will provide its product free of charge to any COVID-19 site. And Kaiser Health News, or Kaiser Health Net, did a survey a couple of months ago, they surveyed 94 websites that were related to COVID 10 of them had some amount of accessibility and the other 84 did not. That's not what should be going on. Especially when among other things, government agencies are supposed to know about the stuff. Josh Basile 53:01 That's it's really scary that during COVID That you're not allowing or making sure that your website is accessible before you make it go live. That just is such a disservice to to persons that are the most vulnerable to COVID. And that, you know, it's in my eyes it is it's life or death. And if you don't have the ability to get that vaccine, or delay that vaccine, that it's so terrifying. Michael Hingson 53:29 Yes. Moderator 53:31 How do you think COVID is affected accessibility, especially with the rise of CFS? S and E long COVID, resulting in more disabled people? Michael Hingson 53:45 Well, I think that answer is part of it. If as more people become persons with disabilities in one way or the other because of COVID, they may, depending on what has happened to them need to have website access that they don't have today. We have seen some companies respond really well. Zoom, for example. I don't know when it first started. But when zoom became very popular, it became visible that Zoom actually has an access team and whenever something is reported to the team that is not accessible with Zoom, they jump right on it. And I've seen fixes to accessibility issues within a matter of years, even just a few days. That one came up last week. Were regarding a keyboard command to to start a meeting. And it's been fixed. It was an access issue. There was a button there was a key command to to utilize that became broken. It's now been fixed. So they've been great at responding. I don't know of any other companies that have put that level of commitment into the process. But it is something that, that all companies should do, especially large companies, for small companies. If you rely on accessiBe, for example, reporting to accessiBe helps, because accessiBe will address it or let you know that it's not an accessibility issue or what they can and can't do and so on. And I think it's all about response. So the companies that are going to succeed are the ones that are truly responding, ultimately to the consumers. And I think we have maybe just about, well, three minutes. So do we have another question? Moderator 55:43 Yeah, just one more for symbolic way to sum up this webinar. So you mentioned at the beginning of the webinar, that there are 250 million websites out there and only 2% of them are accessible. So how optimistic are you that is that there is a true chance to close the gap. Michael Hingson 56:07 There absolutely is a true chance to close the gap, by the way that 350 million is in the US alone, I think the estimate is something like 1.5 billion worldwide, and it continues to grow. And I want Josh to answer as well. But absolutely, there are ways and there is a chance to bridge the gap x SMB says that they want to work toward getting the internet completely accessible by 2025. Great goal. And I believe that the commitment of the company is genuinely to make that happen. I know that there are many other people not related to accessiBe who also want to make the Internet accessible. And the fact that there are people who want to do it, in and of itself means there's a chance. So we just need to find ways to work together and collectively make our voice a much stronger voice. Josh Basile 57:02 Just investing energy and time into scalable solutions. And the reason why I emphasize scalable is because the gap is so darn large. If you go in and expect to bridge that gap just manually, we don't have enough skilled people that know how to do this. And the ones that can do it are incredible at what they do. But there's just not enough of them. There's not a big enough army. But from a scalable solution with technology. Having the software be near your army just makes it that much easier to bridge that gap. So I'm really investing my heart energy and time and an ability to advocate for continuing to strengthen the AI solutions that we have. And they will get better and better. As time goes on, which excites me so much. Michael Hingson 57:55 Josh, I want to thank you very much for being part of our discussion today on the accessibility gap, bridging the gap and different disabilities. Same goal because I think we've demonstrated as vividly as we can, it is the same goal, and that we all can work together. To find a solution. We just need to have the commitment and the drive to do it. We will be holding more of these webinars and we will make sure everyone is aware of it. If you have more questions or want to communicate, you're welcome to email me I'm easy to reach it's Michaelhi@accessiBe.com M I C H A E L H I at accessibe.com You can also go to my website and reach me through that Michael Hingson.com or you can go to web to accessiBe and send emails through the contact process there and they'll reach we do want to hear from you. So I want to thank you all for being here and helping us Bridge the Accessibility Gap. Michael Hingson 59:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Meet Gal Bareket, Chief Solutions Officer of accessiBe. Gal, an Israeli-born technology leader tells his story of growing up in Israel including serving in the Israeli military. He talks about his experiences forming and growing his companies before joining accessiBe. Gal will discuss his views about internet access and his experiences helping to shape the vision and products of the assistive technology industry's largest internet remediation company, accessiBe. His stories will fascinate and enthrall you and inspire you to do better in whatever task you undertake. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:22 Hi, I'm Michael Hanson, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And today unexpected in a lot of ways, partly because, up until about a week and a half ago, I didn't expect that I would have our guest on today. But here he is. I would like you all to meet gala bracket gal is in Israel and gal works for accessibility. I've told you all a little bit about accessibility in the past, accessibility is a company that has created a variety of products and systems to make websites more usable, so that we can achieve our ultimate goal of making the internet fully accessible by 2025. And one of the people who's going to help with that is gal who is our guest today. God Welcome to unstoppable mindset. Gal Bareket 02:19 Hi Michael, thank you for having me. This is such a pleasure having the country having to have the continued conversations the ongoing conversation with you. Michael Hingson 02:27 Well, and and we don't get to talk nearly enough. So here's a chance to do some of that. So you are in Israel. So right now it's probably something like about 636 or 637 in the evening. Gal Bareket 02:40 Also, daylight saving brought us one hour back. Right now we actually 5:30pm It's great still have today. Yes. Yes. Michael Hingson 02:48 So the daylight saving just in for you. Gal Bareket 02:50 Just just editor just started with. We just added we are it's getting dark earlier. Michael Hingson 02:56 Yeah. And we do that next Sunday. So we'll we'll catch back up to you. I don't know why we can't have a standard in the world, but it's the way it is. Well, so So tell me a little bit about you. So you're from Israel. Gal Bareket 03:15 So I'm from Israel, I had the privilege of joining system B in early May this year, mid May late this year. Previous to excessive A i A little bit perhaps about my background in the military, which provides a little bit of both spice and interest to the role. I served in the Israeli elite intelligence unit called at 200 were just a few great things that the military experience that is so far removed sometimes we have so far removed for someone who didn't get to go through it but essentially through college however, you have the you are being put in stressful situations and I had the privilege in the age of 19 to already have 200 to 400 people under my supervision and in addition you get to work in the army on on trying to focus on on solution rather than the problem after and that's something that helps to cultivate and help cultivate the myself throughout the years. Which then led is a little bit a little bit further about my personal background. I graduate from Tel Aviv University with a law major had had to work in a hand the work in Israeli parliament our sides Knesset MK MP MK members, parliament members in the Israeli Knesset and helping them legislate laws it's so it's something that in Israel also it's important to share that from the edge D getting a degree standpoint. You know how in America you do we go to preschool at pre law and then a law school in Israel when you finish with the military service and you go to university You automatically immediately choose a profession, if you will. And hence the law major that did allowed me to immediately pursue the degree itself, and bend practice law. How ever prior prior to practicing law is that in my last year of school, I was working on two companies at the time. And one of those two of those companies actually launched but I had to make a decision because I couldn't operate both at the same time, I chose the company that accessibly equity hired, it was a company in those fatality in the industry, we were working on trying to help bridge the communication gap, how funny between guests and hoteliers, or between guests and staff and between people, essentially to because communication is almost key to everything. And I'm sure we're going to talk about it a little bit over over our chat and it but in addition, the bridging the communication gap during my time the Israeli parliament, you could see that if the minister doesn't necessarily or the the Knesset member the necessarily came or a parliament member with a judicial background, the ability to legislate, the law becomes cumbersome, and hence you need a mediator to digest what you but what what the request was was was created and then able to push it forward. Now, this is a little bit so just to summarize a little bit about me some army time, great experience some to leave university, a growth towards working within touching the bills themselves understanding the cumbersome and hence why I get one of the many reasons why I'm attracted to accessibly because there's so little tweaks that can be done in order to make so many people live so much better. Michael Hingson 06:54 I'm curious, you, you raise something that just sort of prompts a question. serving in the military, that's something that everyone in Israel does. Right? When they're right, when they're growing up. What that is something that is really foreign to us over here in the United States, and that not everyone is required to do that. What do you think the real value of serving three years in the military gave you? Or why do you what do you think about having had to do that? Gal Bareket 07:26 I think that when a when a teen a get to the age of 1817 and starts a process, a process in which there is an entity called the army that started working on, on identifying various aspects about your personality, IQ and capabilities, is when it's today thinking about in hindsight, it's crazy. Back then, it seemed, it seemed it seemed normal, it seems like I'm being categorized in order to go to a place and trying to optimize me as resources or try to optimize the skill set that I bring to the table and see how it can help the the entire entity to grow and within those 17 between 17 to 18 as you go through the process, getting getting into the military getting into the military service, which is you know, like applying to college like sending out those envelopes. When you get there is but it but in an opposite direction you are being then targeted by the army in various units you can serve in whether it's combat or non combat alike, within the Army, then you get you have you get to have a when in contradictory to college, there is much more discipline, much more discipline in terms not necessarily the discipline that you would feel or think about when I say the word discipline but more order. organization skills you have for Israel is a country that knowns for it's a formality, the Army is a place where formalities finally being get structured. There is different entities that are in charge of different things in the army and then you get to understand how to when you get out of the army how to better succeed within the commercial world because you already understand some of the help within the intelligence unit in particular how to communicate when you are being trained how to how to be in charge of large portion of people at the same time and mitigate and mitigate and mitigate issues you are you're becoming a mini CEO of me as small medium enterprise company. It when you're between the ages of 18 to 22. And when you get released are like whoa, but what just happened? Did I just do that I learned all those things, and I can't share it with anyone in the world. Michael Hingson 10:05 But But you learned a lot of responsibility. You learned how to do those, which I'm assuming that you feel were very much a life building experience for you and one that you value 100% There's something you wouldn't change for the world. Gal Bareket 10:24 That is true. That is true. I can't it's like, it's like, you know, they say, I don't I don't regret things I did. I regret things I didn't do. Things that I did. This was part of the many actions that were supposed to bring me to the person that I am today. So I try to not regret my or my actions that I already took. Michael Hingson 10:46 What do you regret that you didn't do? Gal Bareket 10:49 Oh, i very i bet i I just dug myself my own hole. Michael Hingson 10:57 Just just popped out. It was it's a it's a great line. And I think you're absolutely right, we, you know, I once went to a meeting. And the people, the it was actually a church. And the pastor said, you know, the problem with how we view mistakes is that when you make a mistake, if you legitimately make a mistake, you've made the mistake. Now the question is, what are you going to learn from it, but you can't argue or spend your whole life worrying about the mistake you made? It's how you progress from it. And it's the same sort of thing. We learn, we make choices, and we do things. And once we've done them, they are they're part of us. But the real question is, what do we what do we learn? Or issue think back? After doing something? What is it that I didn't do that I could have done? And that's something that we're going to talk about? In the book, I mentioned that we're beginning to write a new book. And that's one of the issues that we're going to talk about is that, that the reality is it's it's not the choices so much we make, it's what do we learn from them, so that we can make better choices? Gal Bareket 12:08 Right, right. Look at the intersection of in hindsight and evaluate whether what how we how we actually impracticality took the whatever action that we were supposed to take and understand whether it was right or wrong, or how could we have got become became better every intersection probably yield an opportunity to self observation. Michael Hingson 12:32 It should. And one of the things that I experienced is a lot of people don't take that time later, to analyze what they do and what they did. And as I put it, I'm my own worst critic. I like to record speeches that I give, and I am these podcasts I listened to because I learned from them. And I recognize that I am, and should be harder on myself than anyone else could possibly be. If I learned to do self analysis, and I think that's an important part of life that all of us can, can learn to develop. Because when we analyze ourselves, if we look each day back at what we did, and what we didn't do, that we could have done or should have done, that, is what helps us move forward and enhances or can we help us move forward and enhance our lives? Gal Bareket 13:27 Right when we're we were consciously making decisions when we were unconscious of the decisions that were taking place, and we just let ourselves be part of I agree mycologists My only advice to you is just be constructive is yourself. If you're your worst critic, give yourself just make sure that you are not taking yourself to too much down before so you'll be able to actually get up. Michael Hingson 13:49 Yeah, I think that's the that's the point is that when you're your own worst critic, it's the point that you will see things maybe sooner than other people will or they don't want to tell you, but if you see it, the question is how you then deal with it. And you're absolutely right. This being your own worst critic isn't to tear yourself down, but it's to give you the opportunity to say how do I handle that different next time? Right. Thanks. And then remember next time, that's the other part of the of the challenge and the problem. It sounds like with with your experiences and so on having been in the military and gone through that life experience for several years. You've been put in a situation where you get to analyze a lot Gal Bareket 14:40 that's true. I almost everywhere every place I go every every interaction that I that I encounter I make sure to I need to make sure to be alert and keen and understanding for the for the for for something bad to happen. Proactive listening is is something that that the army is also not that the army was promoting initially when I was there but leaving the Army in being in keep endorsing proactive listening. And that's I think, where the most progress that can be done on an individual basis because then when actual conversations and and decision making are actually being taken under as conscious as they shouldn't, then you can actually move forward, learn processes, and look at things from a retrospective standpoint, create proper hindsight, and progress. Michael Hingson 15:37 And that's all we can ask ourselves to do. That's true, that makes perfect sense. Were you ever in combat in the military? Or were you removed from that somewhat. Gal Bareket 15:50 So thankfully, in the elite Intelligence Unit, what I did, I was I needed to facilitate the teams that went, I was an officer of operations. And part of my role was to make sure that the people that are going to various locations that don't necessarily as places that they want to be in or places that the entity the people that are there wants them to be there. I needed to create to make sure that everyone will literally to make sure that there will be safety for everyone. And constant communication, the hospitality and housing would work great. And never people would come we will come back, come back come back safely on both ends. Yeah, that's that's that's mainly was my own version of his offer, operational person I didn't I wasn't the first to come. But was that but I needed to be in charge of those who went there? Michael Hingson 16:46 Yeah. Well, that's a pretty awesome responsibility and an interesting skill to learn, which I'm assuming was very helpful you to you, once you got out of the military, because you learn how to deal with people and you learn to understand what people think and how they think someone. Gal Bareket 17:05 However, in the in their in life after the army, things are a little bit more relaxed. Yes. The quick decisions are important, but they are not necessarily some of them are life changing, or some of them are. But they are they can be taking, they can be taken with some thought behind them. And it's, it's not necessary. Yeah. Michael Hingson 17:35 I hear what you're saying. It's, it's different. Do you think a lot of people forget a lot of the lessons that they learn in the military? Given the way you describe it? Yeah. Gal Bareket 17:45 I think that I think that's life is is dissected into chapters, and each chapter that you go through for, you know, youth, growing up youth, then in Israel, it's the military time that is in the background, but you yourself are growing from 82 to 2223, depends how many years you decided to participate in the army. And there's all those intersection are those the parts are, are our parts where you grow from, grow, have evaluate whether this is the person, you know, am I and I don't like to speak about myself in the third day, but I'm his girl from the military is the same guy that is the same person that he is today? Or is there just a bunch of skill set and learnings and morals that I can take with me as as part of who I am, and then learn how to utilize them with with the person who grew immensely since that time? In the past. So yeah, this life life, life is interesting. This way, it throws you into chapters that you don't necessarily know when it starts when it's when it starts when it ends, because sometimes inertia just comes in. And so being conscious is continuing our previous anecdotes is really important. I know Michael Hingson 19:17 for me, having gone through the university and gotten a master's degree in physics, one of the things that I tell people is I don't use the physics directly today. But the disciplines the mindset, the thought process that I learned being very heavily involved in science and in the philosophy of science and having had the opportunity to study how people in science think and someone has helped immensely. So physics is something that I think was extremely valuable to me, although I don't use it because my life took some other turns. The skills and the disciplines I learned from it, are extremely valuable, and I wouldn't trade them for the world. Gal Bareket 20:01 Would you have? If you could have gone back? Would you have taken the route of pursuing physics? Or are you like, just the more on the morals from it? Michael Hingson 20:11 No, I would still, I would still have pursued physics, I learned a lot that I don't think I could have learned without being involved with it. And, again, when I was taking physics, I didn't know that my life would change in some of the ways that it did. Excuse me, but, but it did change. And so it's, it's all about growth. And it's all about learning how to accept that growth, and accept the choices that you make, I believe that I can trace a lot of my life back to choices that I made and how one choice led to another choice. And I think that's important for us to be able to do. And I don't say that in a negative way. But rather, the one choice led to another choice that led to another choice. And along the way, I learned from each one, which also caused me to help make the choices that I made. Gal Bareket 21:11 I understand and agree in 1,000%. Michael Hingson 21:15 So you, you went through the military, and then you came out. And I'm fascinated by the fact that then when you went through University and graduated with a law degree, and then started working in the legislature, I came at the legislature from a different standpoint, in that although I was in the sciences and someone, I also joined the National Federation of the Blind, a consumer organization, the largest civil rights organization for blind people. And we're very much about dealing with getting appropriate legislation to deal with the civil rights of blind people. And so I was very heavily involved for many years, in various ways, working with Congress and state legislatures. And so to understand the the law process, and some of the political negotiations, it's a fascinating world, unfortunately, I think that it's changed a lot, at least in this country in the last 40 years or so it's become much more divisive and much more political than it really should be. And you almost get to the point where you wonder if people are really looking out for the country anymore. Gal Bareket 22:30 Yeah, I think it's a sickness of every country. I think it's, it's, it's a sickness of, of either the parliamentarian system, or the presidential system, the ones that you that America has the presidential system with the two houses, and which automatically creates a lot of stagnation. The fact that there are two entities is that are part of the process of making a decision in Israel, the situation is the same in a parliamentarian system, but different because there are many parties that are supposed to form a coalition. And it happens to be that the minority then controls there has an ad portion and proportional power over the coalition and and then not the Your vote is not necessarily provide us the request of what it is that you are voting for. Michael Hingson 23:27 It's it's interesting, I think you raise a good point. But it also goes back to mindset, if everyone is really looking at it from a mindset of, yeah, we have different beliefs, we have different points of view about what needs to be done. But we want to do what is right for the benefit of our country. That's a lot different than I want to do what's right as far as I'm concerned, so I can win and gain more power. And that's where I think we've all diverged and deviated that there's too much I've got to be the winner. I've got to be the one to get the power. And the other side shouldn't have any power because they're just totally wrong. As opposed to recognizing that there's value on both sides. Gal Bareket 24:19 Yeah, yeah. That the political sphere is a sphere that provides a lot of desperation and inconvenience and others and things are so simple to just make them as you are saying they should be but you know, life flips. I find myself and I think I shared with you in our previous conversations, focusing on the things that I can change focus things on the thing, whether it within myself or within my nearby surroundings. I found myself getting as being less involved in an In politics with time speaking of the different entity and or even removing myself from almost complete completely, in order to focus on my, like my current life and accessibly, the the efforts that I'm doing to help the company is doing and letting me be part of it of making the this cliche as it sounds, making the world a better place focusing on those, yeah, focusing, which is, you know, the stuff that are in front of me, or even a year ahead or two years ahead, are within my capacity and bandwidth to influence. Michael Hingson 25:42 Yeah, you can worry all day about everything that goes on in the world. Or you can, excuse me, or you can learn to focus on the things that you have control over and not worry about the rest. And all too often, we focus on way too much stuff. And we have no effect or control over any of it. If we would learn more to focus we would drive ourselves less crazy. That's so you So you went but you you came out of college and you said you use had been involved in starting two companies, what were the two companies Gal Bareket 26:21 so one company was in the fashion industry. And what we were doing we used Ay ay ay an image, or AI image recognition and machine learning. We used we were helping it was several years ago now it's now it's a little bit more trending all over. But people that got into fashion blog websites, were looking at different items and not necessarily knew where to shop them or even look at their friends on social media and or various pictures and couldn't know what items are they're wearing the like to see where it was purchased from what we build an engine that is able to determine through image recognition, where is the picture is taken from or where is that what is what item is being is the person wearing, and where and the list of potential stores that is able to then facilitate that it was heavy tech. And that went on that that's that's here. Michael Hingson 27:26 Now did you didn't write code No, Gal Bareket 27:30 I you know, I was helping. So, it was the beginning of the road I was up to form formed a team creating terrible infrastructure and processes and then I learned that it would be less it was less prominent in Israel to start with. So, we we were we applied to an acceleration program in Boston, whoever the same time we in May in in the different company and they ended up pursuing for the next five and a half years until excessively in the in that company, that the time that I had to make a decision with this company was was moving to Boston the other company got accepted to an accelerator program in Berlin. So both received a global recognition and now it was a time to choose the the one have had a very tough choice great team on both ends, it's just that fashion is never was my expertise. So hence it was in a very easy check move towards hospitality service industry, AI bridging the communication gap things that are a little bit more in my day felt more in my day to day and hence I invested the my commercial life to a degree into that. Michael Hingson 28:55 So what was the hospitality company about Gal Bareket 29:00 so when West one guest comes to hotel today, they would they go to their rooms and ever you know be let's say before COVID Before digitalization went on a rapid scale up probably before COVID When the hotels when guests were finished their booking there was no way for the hotelier to properly start the communication with the guests and allowing the guests to get a seamless experience as the book get they can request the stuff they want pre arrival. They can continue the converse they have they noted in when they get to their room, they don't necessarily choose the landline they can use their own mobile device through their own medium of choice whether it be WhatsApp WeChat, line Facebook, etc. And then as they leave the the the hotel they can decide whether they want or not to continue or not continue the conversation. So we used we replaced the old landlines. During the room to the convenience of not without the need to download any app on your mobile device, you are able to then communicate with the front desk and request whatever it is that you need or maintenance or housekeeping and everything from the palm of your hands without the need to download anything. Michael Hingson 30:20 So you did that for a period of time? Is that company still working today? Is it still doing the things and setting up the procedures that you you started Gal Bareket 30:34 and know the company, the company had a great time and, and was working in various places globally until COVID hit when COVID COVID created the big impact for the hospitality industry. And however we were able to find our way through it and we're able to find the right integrator the concrete the right go to market strategies and create the right partnerships. One of these partnerships and ongoing conversations led to the conversations with the with decades share and gal that though that conversations then emerged into into into more than just the conversation in which the guys told us why wouldn't you guys want joining us, help us help us utilize AI bridging that we also need to bridge the communication gap to different degree. And we need we need a team that that scaled in the past in various aspects and is and is able to help us scale further from the from what the team was in amazingly able to accomplish with accessibility. Michael Hingson 31:49 So though dealing with Internet access is a lot different than dealing with the hospitality industry. What what piqued your interest about what Sher gal and deco were doing with accessibility. Gal Bareket 32:05 So many things, I'll start with the fact that the vision draws your attention, because it's almost possible to do and when something is impossible to do, it's worthwhile to, to get the hang of it and to try to try and do it by ourselves. The meeting with the with both with the sheer girl and vism the motivation and inspiration that came out of the meeting was a new that this is a company we would like to be part of and then perhaps Lastly, but most importantly, my wife's a mother was a social worker in New York City in which she works directly one on one with people with disabilities. She during you know we had throughout our time together we there were endless Commodore, there were ongoing conversations and the great I got to hear secondhand not firsthand challenges, barriers of people and to have the opportunity to have the opportunity back event to have a conversation about how to have the humble part in entering an entity that is working to do good was a no brainer. It that we are providing our ability to provide service, of course, but being but but moving away from one industry to the web accessibility industry, allowing us to also see how hotels are not Mrs. are not necessarily within compliance are Elia allowing us to see the web accessibility is the is a bigger picture, as the word focusing on digitizing itself. And as accessibility is taking a big stage within the big role on the stage of trying to have working on remediate on making the web accessible on the web. The World Wide Web is such a big word. We're making the world wide web accessible. So yeah, so you ask what what brings you to the company being part of an organism that that's what organism organization that's what it strive for, to take this www are making it accessible, and learning that as I get to accessibly how big the problem is, and that's something that I wasn't aware of. I was aware that it's there. I was aware that some people are facing it. I wasn't aware that it's growing. And I wasn't aware that it's it's how much it affects the day to day life. And as I started to training at accessibly and I was giving the opportunity of speaking with a people with a visually impaired all those technicalities of Have bed bow challenges that people are facing? I knew that this is its this is where I am supposed to be, this is what I need to serve. And this is this is how this is a company, I want to utilize my skill set, you know, to help grow? Michael Hingson 35:18 Well, and the fact is that, as you stated, what we call the accessibility gap is growing, because of the number of websites that are being created every minute, every day, and how small the number of those websites actually intentionally do what's necessary to bring access in. And I think one of the important concepts to remember about accessibility is you can have all the standards in the world, you can have all of the the requirements that define what access means. But access ultimately is about how usable is the website, right? And that's where it really comes. It's all about, can people use the website? And do the standards make the website as usable as it should be? Or is there more to it, and there is more to it. The standards are a great guideline, which is why we have today what we call the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. But the fact is that it's all about usability. And I think that's been a very strong growth area for accessibility, because access to be when I joined in January was very much involved in talking about access from the standpoint of adhering to the guidelines, I think that there was an intent to want to make website usable, but focus more on the guidelines and the World Wide Web Consortium standards and so on. And is moved to understand that there's a lot more to it than that to make the website world very usable. Gal Bareket 37:12 I think accessibly is because it was always providing services, they just understood it. Now it's the time to provide the services from scale, at scale. And also, from an educational standpoint, access to be understood, as people were looking out for looking at, at it as a company as a thought leader in the industry as a company who were able to work on and assist many websites. As as we all know, it also received a bunch of heat from either the community or for members or whether whether it's legit or not legit, everything is legitimate desire legitimatize in my book, so it's all fine. The accessible understood that it needs to take needs to do several things it needs to provide a provide education or what we call free education or learning. And you mentioned the word access one of the tools that is coming out as part of the company's culture called Access campus, which its goal is to route and incept within the beginning of developers and marketeers mindset how the digital assets of a website should be accessible. There are there is a there you mentioned usability before Miko usability testing is a term that is taken from the user experience world from the tech industry from the development sphere. We now are trying to claim an access to B and the claim to fame that usability as part of the user experience of checking a website needs to kind of the QA of your website needs to be be done with people with what product or service we like to call user testing. People with disabilities that are using system as you mentioned in the beginning of the call like Jaws, or that are allowing them to view website and actually see if though if the digital assets are actually working or actually providing them with access successively decided that it's that it's more it's going to work in a more holistic fashion is going to work on an educational spectrum. And that's part of the founders vision to make to help people learn more about the field. Well, people understand not just from a compliance standpoint, but how to create products and tools and services that are from the get go are accessible. In addition for everyone who needs to get up to par access will be provided for access to be now so the professional solutions department The Department where which I am part of the goal is to allow remediation of the rest of the digital assets that are part of your website and or part of your organization. If you are an enterprise who is who has files that are problematic for the for your workers that are supposed to read a remediated file, an accessible file, then perhaps you need that service. And I would ask you, Michael, when, when you tackle a PDF, when you tackle a file, what are due? Are there any challenges that are in front of you check in immediate file for having having you having a person unstoppable challenge, taking a child taking, taking on a file? Michael Hingson 40:50 Well, sure, which is, of course, the whole point of now what we're talking about with access flow. But But yes, clearly, it depends on the PDF is like with everything, there's always the answer, it depends. There are many PDF documents that are not readable by a blind person with a screen reader. There's more to it than what Adobe does with its own internal optical character recognition to recognize the the information in the file. And sometimes that can be made to talk and give me the information that I want. And sometimes it can't. Likewise, with any website, sometimes, it verbalizes well, and many times, it doesn't verbalize extremely well, which means that I might be able to use the website, but it will take a lot of work to be able to use the website, or the website was constructed in a way that really makes it very usable for me without a lot of effort. Someone put it very well, when they once said that what blind people learn how to do is to muddle through and, and break their way through all of the barriers that exist on websites. So we can we can make them work. But a lot of times, it's very difficult to make them work or we have to spend so much time doing it that you wonder after a while if it's worth it. And that's of course, what excessive B is, is all about an excessive B, I think, excuse me excessively as someone recently said in a meeting I attended that excessive be in other companies like it, but I'm specifically focused on excessive be excessively has to customers. And it's something that excessively I think has learned over the past many months, that there are the customers who actually buy the service, that is the website owners and the website. Developers. And so it's the business community. But the other customer that accessibe B has, which is just as much and probably even more important for the company to consider is the end user. Because the end user is the the person or people who actually have to use the product that excessive B provides or products that excessive B provides. Right in excessively has has grown a great deal. And recognized that that second customer is extremely important in a way it does pay the bills, because the customers who use that site that uses accessibility and find it helpful are going to talk about it. And the community is pretty close knit. So the reality is it's important to to really focus on the the end user world as well and accessible has really started to do that which I think is incredibly good. Gal Bareket 44:14 Oh, I agree. I agree help during bridging the gap with your end users, which they are the actual service recipient of the work that you're trying to accomplish. And getting their feedback is priceless, is priceless. And can can be a great tool for for progress for change. And you can see I think you can see it with the growth of this solution with the current growth with the with the current organic growth. And my emphasis on organic on this dissolution department because you get to understand why people come to accessory. I'll give you an example. There's a there is a product that is VPAT is about Voluntary Product Accessibility Template, that template is something that companies are now understand that they need to obtain in order because the companies that are exploring whether they would like to do business with them wants to know if they are on they are taking steps to become accessible. So, that the market which is it is fascinating because the market is doing the right formations to allow a to allow having the discourse of accessibility all around. And the service when when it when people come for excessively, right now, with an organic growth growth, to get the VPAT service, it allows us to understand that they that organizations right now are are taking an active role in trying to make sure that they are fixing and adapting and removing and removing all of the barriers for people with disabilities. So, they were allowed to enjoy surfing the web properly and kindly and comfortably, which is most important. So some so I repaired manual audit, media or mediation, follow mediation, these are these are these are names of just aspects of the worldwide web or the digital assets that exist to be understood that it that it would do whatever it takes a 360 effort to make sure that its community will have a way not just not just to get into the website, but also use it conveniently and being able to actually you know, scroll between everything read the materials and have have have an equilibrium or have Bring, bring everyone to the same level. So we can all enjoy similar content. Michael Hingson 47:01 What is your role at accessibility? What is your job? Gal Bareket 47:05 So my role as chief solutions officer, I run the Department of taking chief solutions officer and we have solutions and services under our umbrella. Some of the reason why we added this solution into the component is because accessories working on providing every service to their businesses in a seamless, seamless and convenient fashion. Like it did with the AI overlay interface. The the convenience allows businesses to first to rapidly adapt technology and and being willing to make a change for the better good. So one of the one of the elements of those solution in the solution part is where we automate getting a person from a website directly to our dashboard, allowing to facilitate the entire work and offload in a seamless and automated way backed by accessories AI power engine and provide a service back to the client now the service aspect comes into play where with our accessibility experts is this team is a team of trained individuals developers that are doing the manual labor and have in touch and making sure to go to dot the tee to cross the t's and dot the eye around every single part of the website that nothing will get the NO FLOW will remain untouched. So in comparison perhaps to previously where our emphasis was on the on the AI engine itself and on the on the widget while getting slowly requests for the other remediation services. Now we are continuing putting our effort the company continue putting its effort as you know, Miko on on the AI interface but simultaneously, it opened a full bridge to allow every service every accessibility service that is related to the World Wide Web to arrive in our into our door in our footsteps and allowing us to be able to remediate and fix and resolve the issue whether it's just to bring up to compliance but in most part in my department, it's to make sure that the user will get a friendly experience when they get into the website. Michael Hingson 49:43 And so I get the impression from what you're saying that could involve the AI powered overlay. But it also could, could come about from other services that excessive B is or will be providing Gal Bareket 49:58 100% and person that it should go over it. Now when I say person, there's two people that are that we offer as a company, we offer our own, actually the expert team that we trained in house Cree with our own syllabus and our and our own materials, and made them and brought them up to par with looking at isup and other organization to bring them perhaps even further down their proficiency route. So there's that sweet expert who goes through the work themselves that in our part, and are integral part of the service. In addition, there is an addition there's also the technological effort that is being happening around this scene, continuing making a robust system, that its AI capabilities will be able to do the majority of the job in order to flag the difficulties to the person A, that is testing it. Now, that is the first person the second thing that the second option of people that can test your website is a product or a service that we called user testing. User testing is essentially bringing in people with disabilities with their assistive technology devices, which Michael perhaps you want to share what is what is even assistive technology for some because I am saying the word because I love the words, because I learned it, you are living it firsthand? Michael Hingson 51:33 Well, I think it's exactly what what it implies it's technologies that assist in making it possible for us to accomplish tasks. So in the case of the web, for blind people, it could be a screen reader or it could be access to a Braille display. But it is it is technology that allows us to interact with a computer to get the information that others obtain by looking at a screen. So the assistive technology. So the assistive technology is my, my lovely. Alexa decides to talk to me. So the assistive technology assists in helping to accomplish and perform tasks that we otherwise wouldn't be able to perform, because they're visual. And that is like reading a monitor. So even the Amazon Alexa can in some ways be assistive technology. But the the whole idea is that the technology helps us interact with our environment to accomplish the same tasks that you perform. Gal Bareket 52:52 So that's exactly it. So our end users, that's exactly what they're doing, they're using their tools, where we'd very to be a screen reader, whether it will be just scrolling through the keyboard by itself and see that the website is navigable and allowing the company at the end to see whether the website is actually user friendly, where it's where with all this is a technology to leads you to share with the world not just from the compliance standpoint, not just from a legal standpoint peep I am opening my store for people with disabilities and everybody are willing and we are inclusive and you know, we're stopping no one in the door and everybody are welcome to enter. Michael Hingson 53:36 So from a business standpoint, who and what companies are really the best opportunities for accessibility to help make the website more the website world more accessible. Gal Bareket 53:51 So here we are talking about all types of companies, from small to big, from small medium mom and pop store, to a big giants such as even Adobe or or enterprises, whether public or private companies, governmental organizations, educational organizations can also be benefit tremendously from working with us the excessively what it did with those manual services, automated solution AI backed components and having additional offerings to bring to the industry. It able to open up a full array of opportunities that are that can come from various angles, and they're coming today we're seeing we're seeing group from groups of hotels that are reaching out to us and then a public company in In public company in the US, to a flood of public companies in Israel, we seeing various entities that are interested in understanding how can they now be better, and provide better service, whether it's on the worldwide web or even internal, within their own organizations to to, to, to get better in their hiring processes, to perform better in their internal training for employee adaptation, as many aspects as you will, as you will aware, to those services, and think that these are all being taken in under my department within that umbrella. Michael Hingson 55:45 So there are companies that specialize in making websites more usable, accessible, or whatever, they have manual programmers that, that do that. And they bet a lot of expertise in it. Why accessibility over those or other companies like it Gal Bareket 56:05 says A B is a company that is ready for scale. And is and that's something that is most important, how many website Michael, are currently on? resolved? Michael Hingson 56:22 Well, I think the statistics that I think that we have found is over 98%. Gal Bareket 56:28 So even more and say, 90%, of how many 100,000 100 million? Michael Hingson 56:36 I would say we're talking in the billions at this point. Gal Bareket 56:41 So it's very simple. How many? Michael Hingson 56:47 A? Well, since we know since we know, for example, from our own studies that there are over 380 websites created every minute in the United States. And out of those, we're saying that roughly 2% are accessible. That's basically eight websites out of 390 every minute, Gal Bareket 57:09 right? So I'm looking at the numbers, as I'm talking with you right now, I do want to make a mistake in the US does 103 33 million websites are in the millions, right. And there is other countries with other numbers. But the fact that we are, we are not even meeting the surface, it's it's where we need to aim next. And there's so much work to be done. So accessible, his ability to scale is not just a word for itself, it allows it it allows the company to serve many entities at the same time. Scaling, it's not this is not just tech scaling is operation, it means that if we need tomorrow to hire X amount of people, we have the processes in place, the infrastructure in place and the capacity to do so it means that the company as a whole is working, to grow and having a with the bandwidth to gain all everything in it. In addition, and it's something that our visionary CEO, and is able to create, he constantly create ways to simplify from a technological standpoint, the entire process of have of fixing a website or building a website. And that allows us as a company to have, whether it's internal proprietary tools to provide the job quicker. So I turn around or turnovers are much quicker than other than other companies. Because we are we are building internal tools to help us get to where we want to be. And, and you know what, this is a problem, a big problem, the more companies that are entering the domain, that are trying to make the world a better place, we all win. So instead of comparing between the companies, we are in a joint effort to make sure that the more and more companies would enroll together, that this 100 and that the 2% would be 98%. And then we can fight over the 2% together. Michael Hingson 59:29 Yes, and and the reality is that none of the companies that are involved in this whole process of making websites usable are or should be the enemy of consumers. And I know you mentioned before, there's been a fair amount of heat that has been brought to bear on excessive B to I think, a greater degree than maybe some of the other companies but the heat It has been there. And there's probably been some justification. But there's also been a lot of misunderstanding. And I think that, and I've said it a couple of times, I think that what's most important is that we, as a community of persons with disabilities acknowledge the transformations that are taking place, excessively is not the company, both in messaging and an action that it was 10 months ago, it is different today. It is doing a lot more just doing different things. And I think that's extremely important for, for people to recognize the very fact that people like you are here, you mentioned, by the way that we are as a company, and I say we because I am the chief vision officer for accessibility. As listeners know, you mentioned that we look for people who can help with usability testing, and helping us to make the website more accessible. How can people explore doing that? Where would they go? Who would they contact? Or what would that process be? Do you know? Gal Bareket 1:01:17 So again, parts of our CEOs vision is to and and our, and our, and our CEO, our chief marketing officer and our CRO is to be able to support the community. And the way that we currently understand the community gets supported is through the various umbrella organizations such as the NFB that you mentioned before and allowing and then working in collaboration with these organizations that are not necessarily in it because they did not I didn't see that they were providing it but organization that provide the tools that facilitate the onboarding and recruitment of these type of individuals that some have said that they disobey some of the individuals we are bringing into we are opening roles within the the US market within a the new the New York office for people for people with disabilities over a two we'll be able to have to work with it to work with people disabilities closely to allows us to have not just Sing Sing Sing saying the word inclusion, but also living living it firsthand. So what they can do is they can go to our website, and enter and reach out through various ways through our through our emails to the to the solution department. And we would love to have a conversation with with them with each with each individual, either direct them to the right local organization in their place, we can work with the umbrella organization or works directly with with them. Michael Hingson 1:03:04 And I think that's important to to note that that there are ways that people can reach out so people can go to www dot accessibile. Calm, excessive B is spelled ACC e ss i b e.com. And as listeners of this podcast, no they can also reach out to me if they would like Michael M i ch AE L H AI at accessible calm. And I'm glad to help steer people to the right place or answer any other questions that that people have on the podcast. I think we're getting close to our time but is there any last thing that you would like to say or any point you'd like to make? Gal Bareket 1:03:48 I enjoyed this conversation with you Michael immensely. I think that I would have are totally finished with accessibly is growing and changing as a company just maybe echoing the last thing you mentioned. In you know, in ways that I haven't seen any other company grow and I sit on I sit on various flow advisory roles or board roles in different companies. There is there is a sense of fulfillment waking up in the morning and coming to the company there is ongoing communication that is day by day becoming better and better with between the various departments are working as a right organism to provide service for the industry. There is an immense care for the community. It's what people are waking up for in the morning and are trying to see whether the community was happy today was dissatisfied too then how could the community feel better and feel? And there are main efforts that are being done to take care of that on day two? The basis, the company is also taking into consideration the business aspect and then working on providing additional services, additional solutions, providing additional automation enhancing and improving all the processes or older processes that can now become better and are now better. And we are open to whoever wishes to come in receives type of each one of those services to come to us to see how seamless how short it is than the regular and what there are expected to, and how we are keep evolving and growing as a company, for ever for for for both our end users and our customers, which is wonderful to see is wonderful to see. And be part of Michael Hingson 1:05:52 the way I would also say that if any of our listeners, if you are a person with a website, and you want to see how accessible your website is, go to www dot accessable COMM And there you will see a link to something called ACE AC e which is the accessibility audit tool that you can run, plug in the name of your website. And you can get an audit that will show you how accessible your website is today, based on the guidelines and standards that exist in the world. And it will show you the things that you need to improve upon. So we'll give you a good idea. It's totally free. And if you want to work with accessibility, then the contact information is there to do that. To explore working with accessibility and letting accessibility help you make your website more usable. And for consumers. You can go and check any website as well with ace so we do invite you to do that as well. Well, Gal I really appreciate you being here. And we didn't talk about the fact that golf stands for wave like the wave in the ocean. You you said that? Typically Israeli names have have meanings other than to being just names or Gal Bareket 1:07:16 Abraham Hebrew names Hebrew days, right. Right. Michael Hingson 1:07:20 Now if I talk to enough people, I'll learn some Hebrew that way I guess. Gal Bareket 1:07:25 For sure. Michael Hingson 1:07:27 Well, I want to thank you again for being here with us. Go vericut. And definitely we will have to chat some more and, and compare some more stories. But thank you for being here on the unstoppable mindset. And I hope everyone will tune in next week. And of course, if you liked the show, please give us a five star review with your podcast host of choice or wherever you listen to podcasts. So thank you all for listening, and we'll see you next time Michael Hingson 1:08:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

01:03 - Not Giving Into Peer Pressure 02:31 - Reaching Outside of the Accessibility World (Demystifying Accessibility) * Everyday Accessibility by Dr. Michele A. Williams (https://www.a11yproject.com/posts/2021-06-14-everyday_accessibility/) * Thinking About Disability Until It's Everyone's Normal Way of Thinking * Power Structures and Erasing Innovation * Recognizing Specialty * Cormac Russell: Four Modes of Change: To, For, With, By (https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/4510.pdf) 12:37 - The Real Work of Accessibility: Organizational Change * Taking a Stance and Celebrating Innovation * Inclusion 17:52 - Avoiding Dysfunctional Ways of Working * The 5 Principles of Human Performance: A contemporary update of the building blocks of Human Performance for the new view of safety by Todd E. Conklin PhD (https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Human-Performance-contemporary-updateof/dp/1794639144) * Context Drives Behavior * How Leaders Respond Matters * Set Up The System So The Right Thing Is Easy 26:46 - Moral Obligations and Social Norms: Top Down * PAPod 36 - Martha Acosta Returns - The 4 Things Leaders Control (https://preaccidentpodcast.podbean.com/e/papod-36-martha-acosta-returns-the-4-things-leaders-control/) * Roles * Processes and Practices * Values/Norms * Incentives 31:20 - Personas: Translating Ideas and Principles Into Action * Software Security: Building Security In by Gary McGraw (https://www.amazon.com/Software-Security-Building-Gary-McGraw/dp/0321356705) 37:04 - Putting Accessibility Into Action * Knowledge Building: Iterate * Giving Access * “Appreciate the bunt.” * Clearer Consequences * Greater Than Code Episode 162: Glue Work with Denise Yu (https://www.greaterthancode.com/glue-work) 51:06 - “Disability Dongles” – Liz Jackson (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/disabled-people-want-disability-design-not-disability-dongles-1.5353131) * The Lows of High Tech – 99% Invisible (https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-lows-of-high-tech/) * Infrastructure Disables Blind Navigation * The Models of Disability (https://www.disabled-world.com/definitions/disability-models.php) * The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me by Keah Brown (https://www.amazon.com/Pretty-One-Culture-Disability-Reasons/dp/1982100540) Reflections: Michele: Finding room for everyone to provide their perspective. John: The real solutions are infrastructural. Rein: Accessibility has to be built-in throughout the process of building and designing software. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: REIN: Hello and welcome to Episode 257 of Greater Than Code. I'm your co-host, Rein Henrichs, and I'm here with my friend, John Sawers. JOHN: Thank you, Rein, and I'm here with our guest, Michele A. Williams. She's the owner of M.A.W. Consulting (Making Accessibility Work). Her 16 years of experience include influencing top tech companies as a Senior User Experience Researcher and Accessibility Consultant, and obtaining a PhD in Human-Centered Computing focused on accessibility. A W3C-WAI Invited Expert, international speaker, published academic author, and patented inventor, she is passionate about educating and advising on technology that does not exclude disabled users. Welcome to the show, Michele. MICHELE: Thank you so much, John and Rein. Thanks for having me. JOHN: You are very welcome and we'll start the show as we always do by asking our standard question, which is what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? MICHELE: I don't think I have the most creative answer to this. [laughs] I kind of hate those, “Oh, tell us something fun about yourself.” But the thing I thought about that came to mind was my ability to not give into peer pressure. [chuckles] And some ways that manifests for instance, I have a technology background and yet I'm almost the least technical person like I was probably one of the last people to get a smartphone. I love my flip phone and you couldn't take it from me. So this idea that everyone's doing this social media, all of that, I just joined Twitter last year. So I do things dagnabbit; when I need it, not necessarily just because there's groundswell. So I would say that's pretty good superpower. JOHN: All right. So you gave some examples there in your personal life with technology and social media. I assume that that's also a fairly powerful capability in a business context as well. MICHELE: I think so. Particularly when you're advocating for say, disabled people who aren't necessarily always advocated for, it definitely helps to have a more strong will and the ability to take a stance that turns others rather than consistently feeling like you're being turned around about what others want you to do. So I agree with that, thanks. JOHN: [chuckles] Excellent. And so it looks like you've been involved in the accessibility world on a number of different angles and capabilities and so, what have you found to be the most impactful of those? MICHELE: I tend to want to reach people who are outside of the accessibility world. Unfortunately, I think sometimes accessibility people can tend to talk to other accessibility people a little bit too much. I tend to like to recognize that it is something that everyone in the world should know a little something about. It is an expertise, but there are some ways that everyone can do it. I just recently wrote an article for A11Y Project called Everyday Accessibility. That's when you're making a Word document, for instance, using the Ribbon, using headings, and buttons, or bulleted lists. So I tend to want to bring everyone on board, and demystify accessibility and make it more attainable and easier to grasp and that feels so much like this expert field that takes years to break it down to those tangible pieces that still make a big difference. REIN: One of the things that I hear a lot when abled people are advocating for accessibility is, “Sure, this helps disabled people, but you should care about it because it helps abled people, too.” How do you feel about that? MICHELE: So that's a conversation that's been coming up a lot, too and I have a particular colleague that sent me their response, for instance and it's a stance that I don't particularly align with because the problem with that stance is you end up keeping the status quo. So there are real consequences to being in a society that does not value disability and you, as someone who doesn't have a disability, do not feel those effects. So until we are a more equitable society, we do have to call out the characteristics that make someone have negative effects. So the reality is yes, there are things like situational impairments, which is when the situation you're in mirrors the impact of a disability such as walking and texting—you're not seeing out of your periphery—or there's temporary disabilities, like you've broken your arm, and then there's just the natural process of aging. All of that is true and you can also figure designing for your future self for that last part. But again, I think that we have to be very mindful that right now we need to overemphasize and think about disability until it is our normal way of thinking. REIN: It also seems like it's conceding the ground that doing what's right for disabled people is enough of a justification. MICHELE: Explain that a little bit more, what you mean by that. REIN: So when you say it helps disabled people, but it also helps abled people, it seems to me like you're saying it's not enough for me to just say that this helps disabled people. I have to give you another reason. MICHELE: Absolutely, absolutely, and that ties back into ableism and the invisibility of disability and the devaluing of disability. Like you said, it's like a disabled person is not enough. It has to also include absolutely right with that way of thinking and that's another reason not to go that route of segmenting it in that way. JOHN: I think this ties into something that you had mentioned earlier that I find really interesting, this idea that able people are doing something for disabled people. MICHELE: Yes, and that's the big thing. When you say like, “What's been on your mind lately?” That's the one that comes to mind and it comes to mind for a couple of different reasons. None of them new, none of them – I did not discover any of this; people have been saying this for decades upon decades. But for me, my personal experience, I will give a talk, an accessibility talk, I might explain something about say, screen readers, or some other technology, or a particular disability and then the response is, “Well, it should work this way,” or “We should do this.” There's a lot of solutioning around what I've just presented without any context of ever having met say, a disabled person, or particularly a person in the disability community that has been talked about and that comes, I think from this idea, a couple of things. One, again, this idea of a power structure where, “Well, I'm doing this for you, disabled person.” Not understanding the empowerment that the disabled person has, or this misunderstanding and again, invisibility of disability in spaces like tech innovation and not understanding, okay, that touch screen you're using, that text-to-speech you love, those captions that you use at the bar; all of these things [chuckles] came from disability. We erased the innovation that came from someone designing for themselves and designing for their ability and it's assisted technology and therefore, it's an add-on when it's for disabled folks, but it's innovation when it's for people who don't have disabilities. I think we need to have a lot more discussion about this, particularly in spaces like user experience, where we're supposed to be all inclusive and all about the user. There's some ways that we really are reinforcing this mindset and this power structure, for sure. JOHN: So I want to check my understanding of what you're saying, just to make sure. Are you saying that when you present a problem, accessibility problem, the abled people, the other UX designers, the other people who want to be helpful jump in with, “Oh, we can do this, we can do that, or that” rather than saying, “Well, let's go talk to some disabled people and find out what they need and let that guide how we solve this problem rather than us just being like, ‘Oh, it would be great if dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.'” MICHELE: So to two stages to that. For the first one yes, that's the first thing that happens. In the assistive technology, broad accessibility world, this manifests in some very familiar ways. The first is the blind navigation. Every year, some engineer thinks they've solved blind navigation, pedestrian navigation. Meaning they've created a belt with vibrations on the left and right with an Arduino, or something and they go, “You don't need a cane anymore because it's going to vibrate left when you need to turn left and right when you need to turn right, and you can walk like a sighted person,” or some variation of that—robot guide dogs, smart cane, something like that, or the sign language gloves, or the stair climbing wheelchair. There's these sort of assistive technologies that always come out with very little context around whether it's actually happening, whether it's actually needed. But then there's something John, about what you said, too about let's see what people need and we'll build it. We have to be careful even with that, too because that assumes that I can't build for myself and that's not true either. [chuckles] Disabled folks are the most innovative people because the world is not accessible. There is a such thing as a specialty. Like I have an accessibility specialty, I have a design specialty, but I think we often think that's someone without a disability. No, a disabled person can also have these specialties, or they can be someone who has the idea of what they need and you're partnering with them with your specialty in say, design to create those solutions. So again, I think we have to be very careful about our wording and our viewpoints of what's actually happening. REIN: There's a framework that I've been using for this that actually comes from aviation safety and there's a European aviation safety magazine where Cormac Russell published an op-ed called Four Modes of Change: To, For, With, By. The idea is that change to is the mode where change has done to us without us. So this is a sort of authoritarian top-down thing. We've got no say in the matter. It's not even necessarily for our benefit. Then change for is a benevolent top-down approach. “I'm trying to help you, but I'm the one who decides what to change.” Change with is a participatory co-creating the change. And then change by is change done by us for us where if I'm, for example, a manager, my role would be find out what support you need so you can make the changes you want to make. MICHELE: Absolutely. Perfect. Thank you. I knew there was some reference. This appears in disability justice spaces, in any kind of space where you're talking about inclusion, we know that sometimes inclusion can be code for do things the way that the current power structure does it. Do things the way that the current people in charge of comfortable and assimilate rather than no, we're actually going to allow you to be your authentic self and come into these spaces. Part of the reason this has also been on my mind is because I fit into some of these other spaces as a woman and as a Black person. I think that sometimes my cohorts think well, because we have experienced some of that in our lives, we are immune to them giving that out to others. So as a Black person, a woman, even someone with intersectionality, I can't possibly do that to do was done to me to someone else. But we don't realize how much ableism is steeped into our society, such that it is very easy to do that with disability and not even realize it and not even realize you have the mentality that someone is inferior to you, incapable, and particularly when the disability has to do with neurological, or anything that we really don't understand. But even still, even that kind of categorization can go away because the idea is that any sort of disability triggers usually some sort of ableist response and these things can happen even if you've experienced it yourself. JOHN: So like so many of the other things we discussed on this podcast, it sounds like the real work of accessibility is organizational change. It's getting the power structures to change to allow these things to come into being rather than forcing them in there, or trying to – like you were saying, not forcing the change on the disabled people to fit in. MICHELE: I've been thinking about the roots of this, for sure. And thank you for that. Unfortunately, capitalism drives a lot of this and again, if we're talking specifically more to tech worlds and say, including accessibility into your tech, part of that is just because the buy-in sometimes comes from the internal stakeholders, not the end customer. Again, if you're not mindful, not careful, and don't have leadership that are careful. So the dirty little secret is for instance internally yes, you may be making education software for students, but you're really marketing to the teachers who are going to buy it, and you're then even more so really marketing to whoever the management structure is internally who's going to approve it to even be on the market. So you get further and further away from actually helping a student because you have all these other checks that it needs to impress, or you need to make the case for similar to what we were saying earlier, you have to make the case for disability. For instance, you have to say, “Well, blind people to do this.” You get this pushback of, “Well, blind people don't do that so we don't have to worry about it and you keep moving on.” So there is a shift that is hard, but I do think it goes back to what I was saying earlier about taking a stance. I think that people do need to individually start to take the stance that that may be how we do things now, or how it may even need to be done. But we do want to be careful buying into that completely because it's going to perpetuate the same. We know that that power dynamic internally of who the stakeholders are, again, also sometimes doesn't reflect the diversity of who we are designing for. We're going to keep getting the same result if we're not super mindful and super careful to take the stance that we are going to care about the diversity of the end users, the people that ultimately will have their hands on what we're making and celebrate that oftentimes those best solutions, again, come from the community who are doing the work. So celebrating the innovation that comes from being tied back to those end users rather than thinking the solution has to come from within. So changing that mindset around this difficult, but it takes taking a stand and recognizing it, too. JOHN: So it's trying to change my thinking around to the by style change around accessibility and my context is on the team of web developers who develop apps that are eventually used by some disabled people. So I'm trying to think about obviously, we need buy-in from the power structures as a company and to spend time on the work, but deciding what work gets done needs to be – that's where the inclusion comes in and I'm curious about what the steps are there that helped me get to that point where those people are included MICHELE: So here's a few ways that that comes about. One of it could just be, okay, this is the feature we're doing and we're going to make sure that this feature that we're doing—however that came about—is assessable. That can come from anything from how you're going to code, like making the decision to use standardized elements that come with accessibility built-in, or whatever knowledge building you can do internally to just bake it into how you are creating that feature. Then there is what is the feature and making sure that that, if nothing else, is as inclusive as possible, or at least not exclusionary. You're not making a feature that will exclude people. Again, that comes from an understanding of who is the audience and making sure everyone understands that. No one, I don't think has fully solved for how to make accessibility the thing that everyone knows does – it's difficult. It takes time. It takes training. It takes science from top down as well as then knowledge from the bottom up. It's a journey. But I think that there are places where decisions are made, that you know you're going one way, or the other, whether it's, I'm using a div, or a button, [chuckles] whether it's we're going to wait to put captions, or we're going to go ahead and build in time to do that, whether it's, again, we're going to put in this very visual feature, or we're going to take a little bit more time to understand how to have an alternative to that feature. So there's lots of places where you can be very intentional, that you are going to take the steps to learn about accessibility from your point of view and then incorporate it. REIN: So let's say that your VP of engineering mandates that every project has to meet a certain accessibility score, or something like that, but you don't train the developers. So you were saying top down and bottom up have to come together. I have seen things like that lead to some pretty dysfunctional ways of working. MICHELE: I can see that [laughs] and I think part of that comes from a misunderstanding that accessibility is not just something you say we're going to do. Like, it's not like we didn't do it because we just simply forgot, or we didn't do it just for reasons that can then you can flip a switch and turn it on. People aren't doing it because they weren't taught it, they aren't fully aware of the diversity of it, they aren't aware of what's required, and then leadership isn't aware. Therefore, that steps have to be taken. So there's a lot of rally around let's be inclusive, let's be assessable, but then there's less so when you learn oh, that means we have to maybe take half of the time to train and disrupt our workflow, or we have to do our workflow differently, or we have to go back to the code we've already written and been using for years and fix it. Those are some real decisions and those are some real consequences sometimes to that, too when you're a business that is expected to constantly move forward, but they are decisions that have to be made in order to actually put it in place, not just say you are for it. REIN: Todd Conklin has a book, The 5 Principles of Human Performance, and there are two that I think are especially relevant here. One is that context drives behavior. So if you want to know why someone is behaving the way they do, the thing to look at is the context that they're operating in, and the other is that how leaders respond to matters. When I think about this, I think if you have a design systems team, is that design system built to be accessible from first principles? Is the easy thing to do grab a component that's already designed to be accessible, or is the easy thing to do is throw a div on the page? MICHELE: Yeah, and there are, I think that the number one takeaway is none of it is easy because all of it is late. So there are initiatives like teachaccess.org; we really need to be embedding it in how we even learn the things that we learned, because then it does feel like we're almost disrupting industry to do this. When in reality, we just learned it wrong. [chuckles] We learn to cheat and to make it look and feel the way I want it to look rather than learning that there was a reason there's this thing called a button versus this thing called a div. Now, recognizing, too, though that standards come after innovation. So you can't standardize something that hasn't really even been explored, or even invented yet. So we understand that as you want technology to advance, it's more difficult to then say, “Okay, there's a standard for this and that will guarantee us accessibility.” So for instance, using native HTML elements isn't all, or when we look at mobile, native mobile elements is more difficult to do. This is still a new space, a growing space and so, sometimes we don't often know what that looks like. But that then requires again, that awareness piece of what disability looks like and this is where they're trying to catch augmented reality and virtual reality with XR Access and accessibility initiatives. Because if you're at least aware of the diversity of disability, you can catch it early enough so that when the standards come out again, we're making it less hard. Someone on a panel I was on last week, talked about like tech debt and this idea of well, it can be overwhelming. Well, if you have less things you need to maintain, it's less overwhelming and that comes from using standards and being aware of standards. You lessen your tech debt; that becomes part of the overall responsibility of standards bodies, for instance. So there are some again, tangible steps that I think just need more awareness and talking about over and over again until we get it right, that can be put in place, should be put in place. Hopefully, it will be put in place to make this less daunting over time. REIN: Yeah, and then on the how leaders respond thing. If someone builds something that's not accessible to you, do you punish them to just drive that behavior underground, or do you say, “Why weren't they able to do it? Do they not have the right expertise? Were they under too much time pressure?” How can I make the context better so that people are more likely to do the behaviors that we're trying to lead them towards? MICHELE: Yeah. Thinking a lot about that, too. So I tend to have two ways. I guess, it's sort of the carrot stick kind of thing, or maybe some other dynamic like that, but we know some people are going to get the altruistic side. Again, awareness. They just weren't thinking about disability. It's not something that's in their life. It's not something that was exposed to them. Once someone is exposed and understands a little bit of the work that needs to be done, they're bought in and they go for it. There are other folks that just are ablest. They just will not care. If it has not affected them personally in their lives, they are going to look – maybe like you said, maybe their motivations are something like money, even though they don't realize they're excluding more consumers. Whatever those things are, they're just not going to buy in. That's when unfortunately things like the threat of lawsuits, or bad publicity has to be the way that you get those folks to turn around, or again, you just do it. [chuckles] So that's when maybe the folks on the ground can just do it regardless and the one thing, I think about is this video that went around with this little baby and there was a parent and a teacher aide. I presume the baby was supposed to be doing their sound it out cards, flashcards, but didn't feel like doing it. The little baby sitting on the floor back turned, the mom and the teachers, they did it. They did the sound out cards. The baby's looking back still playing, but keeps looking back and eventually, the baby goes, “Wait a minute, that's my game,” and next thing you know, they're playing the game. So there is something also, too to like you said, maybe it's just a peer pressure thing. No one else seems to be doing accessibility so why do we have to be the ones to do it? But if the cool kids start doing it, if the company start exposing that they are doing it, if there's enough groundswell, people will just get on board with the thing that everyone is doing, too. So I think maybe there are three ways now—maybe I've added a third in my mind. There are ways – as a user experience person, I say user experience the person that you're dealing with. Like you said, get in their head, what are they thinking? What do you think they would want? But ultimately, understand that it isn't always going to be because it's the right thing and the faster you learn that, the more you might be able to actually get some results, too. JOHN: Yeah. I like what you said there, Rein about set up the system so that the right thing is easy and I think obviously, there's a lot of work to get to that point where you have the whole system built around that. But once you can get there, that's great because then, like you were saying, Michele, there's so much less effort involved in getting the thing to happen because that's just how everyone does it and you're just pulling the components are, or copy pasting from the other parts of the code that are already accessible so that it that stuff is already built into the process. And then it doesn't have to be quite so much of an uphill. Like even just uphill thinking process where you have to think differently than you used to in order to get the thing done in an accessible manner. MICHELE: Yeah. Again, unfortunately it's not embedded within us to do this, but maybe the next generation will, maybe the next couple of generations If we keep talking about it and we take the effort to start to shift ourselves, maybe it will be the thing that people can't even remember when they didn't do it. I do feel like we're in a cool moment right now where that might be possible. I'm hearing it more and more. I didn't learn it in school when I was doing computer science and software engineering, but I know some students now that are coming out that are. So I'm kind of hopeful, but the conversations really need to be said aloud and often in order for it to happen, for sure. REIN: You mentioned the larger structural problem here, which is that designing accessible software is a moral obligation and we work in an economic system that's not optimized around moral obligations. Let's put it that way. MICHELE: Yeah. [laughs] That will dollar. [laughs] I think again, there's that school, are we changing that, or we're going to work within it. I think you can do both. Some people should – we should really be tackling both, any kind of inclusion efforts, same thing. Do you do it from within, or outside? Do you work within the structure, or do you dismantle it? I think there's benefits to both. I think there's benefit to basically editing what isn't working about what we're currently doing. There's always an improvement and I tend to look at it that way. It's not so much as it's down with this and up with that. I think we just need to recognize, as human beings who can evolve and do things different, learn, grow, and get wiser, let's just do that. Let's do what we're doing better and when we recognize that we have a negative effect, let's solution something that is going to work better and just recognize that and do better. It's okay to edit. So I don't think we have to toss our hands up and say, “Oh, we'll never get there because of how this is.” That was invented, too. All of these things are constructs. At some point, the way we do things wasn't the way we did things; we did things completely differently. Empires can fall and rise and be redone. So we don't have to stay stagnant, but we can, again, start to make these changes. REIN: I think that even within a capitalist system, there's still a place for social norms. There's still a place for deciding which behaviors we're going to accept and which behaviors we're not going to accept and what we're going to do about those. I just wouldn't expect that to be the CEO's job. I would expect that to be the entire community of the company. MICHELE: The entire community with the CEOs. So the two companies that are the pillars, for instance, of accessibility, Microsoft and Apple, you hear their CEOs say, “We do things accessibly.” So it's not necessarily on them to forego stakeholders and stock prices and all of that. Certainly, you can't do too much if you don't have a company, so they have to do what they have to do, but there is still an okay from that and that's part of that top-down. Again, we need training. Is there money in the budget for training? That has to come from management. So there is still a recognition and it's just always beneficial when everyone is on the same page that this is how we operate; the message then doesn't ever get disconnected. It just shifts to the role of a person and they put it into practice in their own particular way. REIN: Martha Acosta, who is one of the few original women in safety science, she says that there are four things that leaders can control, or have leverage over—there's roles, there's processes and practices, there's values, or norms, and there's incentives. So I think this ties in with what you're saying about what the CEO's job could be. MICHELE: Versus stock prices? Yeah. [laughs] Versus yeah. Which unfortunately is, again, I think it's even upon the CEO to take a stance on what they are going to do with their company and their time. Because certainly, the pressures are coming to them sometimes not necessarily emanating from them. So I think there is opportunity, this is why there's opportunity for everyone to evaluate what are we doing. Like you said, we can decide what is important, how are we going to go about this? And if enough people start to be even more mindful than they were yesterday, shifts are going to inevitably happen. And people who disregard others, discriminate all of these other negative effects that we've seen will inevitably have less effects because the norm will be these other ways that we're trying to include and get better as a society. REIN: So one of the things I like to think about when we have guests, or ask guests to think about, is to think about this challenge from the perspective of a few different people. A few different personas. So I'm a manager, I'm a line level manager and the people that report to me are engineers. What can I do? Or I am a mid-level engineer, what can I do? How do we translate these ideas and principles into action? MICHELE: So what is to understand that there are, for instance, guidelines like there are web accessibility, web content, accessibility guidelines, or author and tool guidelines, because we do need to define what it means. At some point, there needs to be metrics and there needs to be measures that need to be placed to understand, did we do this? One way to do that is to translate those into those various roles. Some of that work has happened and some of it needs to happen. So there's understanding the tangible actions that can and should happen. But I think also, it's simply a matter of deciding that accessibility and inclusion and particularly in my world, disability is just going to be a part of everything. Every check that you make for whatever your role is. You were talking about different frameworks for different levels. Certainly, that's true. I think that we tend to separate out disability from those kinds of conversations as if it's different. It's not different. Making decisions for how you're going to manage your employees should be inclusive of disabled employees. The tools that you want them to use, the ways you want them to work, how “productive” you want them to be, how you're going to measure that. All of that should be mindful of the variety of people that you are supporting. Same with I am a developer so that means that I am writing code on behalf of a group of other people and that means I need to know who these people are. It's funny you say personas because—I know that's not probably what you meant, but in my role, obviously that triggers the user experience personas, which I'm not a fan of. That's all another podcast. [chuckles] But when we're talking about that so in user experience we're saying, “Oh, we're designing for these people, these target audience per se.” It'll be John who's the manager and he does this on his way to work and then there's Mary. Maybe she's a stay-at-home mom, but uses it this way. Dah, dah, dah, all these other characteristics. And then we'll go so now we need disability personas. No. [chuckles] John can also be quadriplegic. Mary can also have multiple sclerosis. So again, it goes back to the idea that we have separated out and made invisible disability. Oh, taboo. Even the word oh, it's taboo. Can't talk about disability. REIN: Yeah. Like imagine having a separate persona for a woman, or a Black person. MICHELE: Thank you. We don't do it. We don't do the whites only school and we'll get to the Black people later. We know that intrinsically, but we do it in everything. So same thing particularly when we're talking about inclusion of disability in all of these phases of say, an organization, we go, “And disability.” No, no, no. If we really want to think about it, disability is the equalizer. Anyone can become disabled at any moment at any time, it does not discriminate. It is the one thing that any human being can become at any time and yet we still separate it out as if it's this taboo, or a terrible thing. Now, again, there are negative outcomes of disability. Not saying that, but we have this tendency to segment it in ways that just absolutely don't make sense and aren't necessary and are detrimental and make it more work, so. REIN: There's a book called Software Security by McGraw. It's kind of old now, but the premise is still very relevant, which is that to make software secure, you have to build security in at the beginning, and you have to keep constructing and repairing it throughout the software development life cycle. So it starts with design, but it includes, you talked about different touchpoints in the life cycle, where you want to sort of check in on whether you still are as secure as you think you are. So that includes design. It includes code review. It includes testing. I wonder if this sort of an approach works for accessibility, too; we just sort of bake it into the fabric of how you design soft. MICHELE: It should be how it works. The moniker is shift left. That's absolutely what has to happen to do it well. You have to be thinking about it all the time. Everything that you do. So that's how my mind works now. It took a long time to do that. But now when I'm sending an email and I put a picture in, “Okay, let me put the alternative text.” I'm making a spreadsheet, “Okay, let me do the heading.” Like, I'm always constantly checking myself as I'm doing anything. “Okay, if I'm doing a podcast like this, is there a transcript, or are there captions?” I'm just constantly doing these checks. That takes time to build up, but it is the way you have to do it to make sure nothing slips through the cracks so that all the hard work that say, the design team, or the dev team did, and then QA comes in and doesn't know how to test it. We're all interdependent so it has to be everyone all the time, all throughout the process in order to get it from end to end to work; the weak link in the chain will break that. So very much how it has to go. REIN: It also seems like this there are small, actionable things that you could do to move in this direction. So for example, when you do code review, ask some accessibility questions. Maybe build yourself an accessibility checklist. Now I don't like checklists, but that's a whole other podcast, but it's better than not thinking about it. MICHELE: Yeah. As you're learning something, sometimes the checklist is helpful because you don't yet have it in your own mind and you don't want to forget. Now you don't want to – I'm sure what you're saying is you don't want to tie yourself to the checklist, too. REIN: Yeah. MICHELE: But as you're building up knowledge, yes, there are so many just tangible did I do this things that you might as well just keep a sticky at your desk, or however you want to do it and just start doing those things. Again, we don't have to keep talking about it. It doesn't have to be this revelation of inclusive buy-in in order to put captions on your videos. [chuckles] These things, you know. REIN: Yeah. This also seems like an opportunity for tech leads to do leadership to say, “Hey, so I looked at this and the contrast ratio is a little bit low. Do you think we could punch this up in a code review?” MICHELE: Yeah. The only thing, though is back to the beginning—being careful about these directives, making sure you understand the directives that you're doing because again, a lot of times, particularly when people are new to accessibility, they overdo it. So they hear a screen reader and they think it needs to read like a novel so they want to add in a summary of the page in the beginning, a summary of this section, and they want to overly describe the alternative text, the image down to the pixels. There's some give and take there, too. There's some learning you want to do, but you can iterate. You can learn one piece, get comfortable with it. Okay, now that this next piece. Knowledge building it's just what it is, is what it is. So there's absolutely knowledge building that you can do to get more comfortable and we need everyone to do this. There's certain parts that should be specialty, but unfortunately, the specialists are doing what everyone else should be doing the basics and so, we've got to shift that so that the specialists can do the specialty stuff, the harder stuff that may not quite get – [overtalk] REIN: That's exactly the same problem is having a security person on your team. MICHELE: Absolutely. So it sounds like you all have a focus on implementation. Like you're implementing and you want to know how best to make – I'm turning it on [inaudible]. [laughs] So you want to know how best to make it work for you, or is that what I'm hearing? REIN: I guess, I lean towards practice. I want to understand the theory, but then if I can't put that theory into practice, the theory is not very useful to me. If that makes sense. MICHELE: Absolutely makes sense. My company name is Making Accessibility Work and a lot of what I say is put accessibility into action, because I am very much tied to this idea that you can be absolutely on board with accessibility and not have any clue how to do it. [chuckles] And then the inverse can be true, too. You can absolutely do not care, but because you care about semantic HTML, you're doing more accessibility than the person who cares. There are these places that people can be in their understanding that neither one is actually, or you think one is helping, but the other actually is. I think people think you have to care. You have to want to Sometimes, you know what, you don't. Sometimes I just need you to fix the color contrast, [laughs] or yes, it's great that you care, but in doing so, you're actually, co-opting a message. You care a little too much and you are actually not letting disabled people speak for themselves because you've now discovered accessibility and now, you're all about it. So I think we've got to meet in the middle, folks. Let's care, let's do, let's demystify, but also understand there are some harder problems to solve, but understand where those are. Putting headings on the page is not the hard problem we need to solve. Just put the headings, making math and science more accessible, particularly when we've made it so visualization heavy. Yeah, let's go over there. Let's tinker with that, folks and that's where we need to be putting all this massive brain power. We've had Web Content Accessibility Guidelines for 20 years. HTML5, which addressed a lot of semantics for accessibility, has been out a decade. Y'all, hurry up and learn that and let's get that going so we can get over to this harder stuff. Get this brain power over to these more complex issues and newer innovations. JOHN: Yeah. I think if you're one of those people that cares, like you were saying, a little too much, or perhaps just a lot, you can end up with option lock because you want to solve all the problems and then you're just like, “But what do we do? What are we doing here?” Like, I'll just put the headings in, put the alt texts in, we'll start there. You've got to get moving. And that's partly where I'm coming from with some of the questions I'm asking is that process of just getting that boulder rolling a little bit so that it takes a little bit less effort to keep going in the future. MICHELE: Yeah, and there's no perfect way to do it. I think everyone's looking for okay, well, how do we do it? You're going to spend a year on how and again, miss the year of what and doing it. It is messy because you're hiring people, you've got people working who don't know how to do it; it's going to be disruptive. We didn't come in with this knowledge. I know you didn't hire people to then train them up and send them to school but unfortunately, you've got to do that. People need to know what to do differently, what they're doing wrong. So some of it is going to be experimental, iterative, and messy, but in the end, start giving access. We talk about language even. Do we say disability? Do we say people with? Or do we say disabled people? And do we say differently abled? Even these – okay you know what, the reality is you do all of that and still don't get access. What would be better is if you have a person with a disability at the table to tell you themselves, but you're worried about language and yet can't even hire someone with a disability. So again, it's getting out of these little zones that we sometimes get in and recognizing the real work that needs to be done and can get done today. REIN: I think there's a real temptation to fixate on the hard, or interesting problems in the tech world that might be wanting to build this distributed database with five nines of durability. But your API server has a bug where 1% of the requests are an error. So if you don't fix that, your five nines over here are useless. MICHELE: The flashy thing, yes. [laughs] The shiny thing, we want to gravitate. Oftentimes, there's no glory in what was considered the grunt work, the foundational work. But I think that's where leadership could come in. I heard someone say years ago, “Appreciate the bunts” in baseball that oh, chicks dig the home run. We love the home run, but sometimes, that bunt wins the game. But that's where a leadership can come in and appreciate laying found a scalable foundation of code that does not add to tech debt, or the diminishing of the bugs that you've kept rolling year after year after year, you close 50 of them. That's where, again, a change in mentality of what we value. Sometimes again, accessibility is not put at the front because sometimes it's just code changes that aren't visible to users. So users are going to think you spent a year and didn't do anything to your code, or some of them will. But again, I think that's a messaging and that's an appreciation of really trying to do, and that's even appreciating software engineering versus just COVID. I have a software engineering degree and that's when I realized, “Oh, we're not just supposed to sit down and start hacking away and make sure it runs for the teacher to check it and we're done.” There's an engineering to this, but you have to value that. But also, I think there needs to be clearer consequences like speaking of engineering. If it's a building, we know the building can collapse. I don't think sometimes we appreciate what can happen if we don't do that foundational work and I think that's a shift overall and then technology and appreciation of that work. REIN: And I appreciate what you did there, which was to subtly redirect me back to the context and to how leaders respond. Because if building that five nines database gets you promoted and fixing that bug doesn't, what are people going to do? MICHELE: Yeah. So what's valued and that's set. Someone sets that. That's made up. You can value whatever you want to value. You can praise whatever you want to praise. Complete tangent, but that takes me to my high school where they were intentional that the students who performed well were going to be recognized by the principal because oftentimes, it was the misbehaving students that went to the principal's office. So the principal knows all the misbehaving students, but doesn't know any of the students that are doing the actual work that the school is asking of them to do. Not trying to get too much into school systems but again, it's an intention that you will honor the work, the unseen work. We do these in other spaces; the behind-the-scenes work, the unsung heroes. That's an intentional step that you can take as well to celebrate that, too. REIN: We have an older episode on glue work and how valuable glue work is, but how rarely it's acknowledged, or appreciated, especially by leadership and also, how it has a gender characteristic, for example. It seems to me like it might be easy to put accessibility in the category of glue work rather than in the category of like you were saying, foundational things that make us have a reliable product and a product that works for everyone. MICHELE: And I don't know if how we've presented technology to consumers plays into that as well. Again, the new flashy wow. The other day, I just looked down at my keyboard on my computer and I just thought about we just take such advantage of the fact that I'm just sitting here typing on the keyboard. Someone had to decide what the material would be that doesn't scratch my fingertips. Someone had to decide how to make the letters so that they don't rub off, or how they light up in the back. There's so much detail that goes into almost everything that we use and we just get so dismissive of some of it. “What's next? Eh, that's okay.” So I think, again, it's a human condition. It's the human condition to appreciate what people are doing for one another in front and behind the scenes and absolutely. But I think that also ties into, again, ableism, too. We see in assistive technology, or an adjustment because of disability as okay, that thing we can do later. But then when it becomes Alexa, when it becomes the vacuuming robot, when it becomes the new latest and greatest thing, then it's front and center and everyone wants to work on it. But it's the same technology. [chuckles] It's the same reasons that you should do it. It just happens to benefit everyone. It came out of disability, but you didn't want to think about it until you've found a benefit for all the “others.” Again, I think that's a human condition we have to correct. REIN: There's a thing that happens once a month on Twitter, which is someone will post an image of pre-sliced vegetables and they'll say, “What kind of a lazy loser needs pre-sliced vegetables?” And then someone will respond, “Disabled people need pre-sliced vegetables.” And then the response to that will either be blocking them, or saying, “Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I had no idea.” I think that there's maybe that dynamic going on here as well. MICHELE: Absolutely what I was thinking about, too, like Nike's shoes recently that you don't have to tie. Well, who doesn't want to sit down and tie their shoes? People who can't sit down and tie their shoes, but that was also a marketing issue. They refused to market it for disability. Like where were the disabled people? Where were the people with chronic illness, or chronic pain, or body size that just does not lend itself to bending over and tying your shoes? Why did it have to be marketed in that other way that then took away the messaging that this is a useful piece of equipment? REIN: Yeah. Like why is this fit model not able to tie their shoes? MICHELE: Exactly. Rather than take the angle that – again, they're all made up. Someone just happened to decide laces. We could have very easily decided this other way at the beginning. We could have very easily decided Velcro was the way. We just, I don't know, somewhere along the way, came up with laces. I think people in general have to go through their own journey of recognizing that what they were told was fact, truth, and stance just with someone's made up thing. Even these companies that we've just hold as pillars started in garages. They may have started in garages a 100 years ago, rather than just 50, or 20 years ago. But these things are just built. So we can build them differently. We can say them differently. It's okay. So taking away that stigma that things have to go a certain way and the way that they've been going, or at least perceived to have been going. We have got to start dismantling that. JOHN: Harking back here, a point earlier about the new shiny is always held up as always better. I read an article recently about prosthetic arms and how everyone's always really interested in building new robotic prosthetic arms. They're the new shiny, they're the cool thing to work on, and people feel good about working on them because they feel like they're helping people who need them. But that in a lot of cases, they're not better than the one that was designed 30 years ago that doesn't do a lot, but has at least a functional hook. They were following one woman through the article who had gotten one of these new ones, but it actually wasn't any better and she ended up switching back to the old one because she could get it to do the things that got her through the day and – [overtalk] REIN: Made with titanium. [laughter] JOHN: And you can clearly see that probably the people that are designing these probably weren't working with people bringing that feedback into the process enough and it was designed for rather than designed by. MICHELE: Absolutely. So Liz Jackson coined the phrase “Disability Dongle.” That's another one that comes up. The prosthetic, the exoskeleton, absolutely. The thing that non-disabled people look at and awe and look at what technology is doing, disabled people are over in the corner going, “That ain't going to help us.” [laughs] If you had asked, we would have told you we don't need that. I think we've also reached a point where we're at the harder stuff and no one's willing to tackle, I don't think always the harder stuff. So for instance, going back to blind navigation, one of the things that makes navigating difficult as a blind person—and I learned this because I talked and worked with like 80 blind people. [laughs] So one of the conclusions that came to with that infrastructure disables blind navigation, you don't need a smart – a lot of people espouse a smart cane. Well, they had this white cane, but it needs an infrared and it needs buzzers and it needs – okay, you're going to give people carpal tunnel. The battery on that is going to die. It's not going to be reliable. And in the meantime, the thing you could have done is educate people on putting stuff at head level. So the way that we design our street signs, for instance, we do everything very car minded. We do a lot of things for cars and we forget people also have to walk and so you put obstacles, or you can educate people about trimming your trees, for instance so people aren't running into them, or how they park their cars so that they're not in the way. Some of it is also just not a technology solution. It may be more an environmental and human education solution, but you can't tell people, who have signed up to work in technology, that they must find a technology solution. So they end up solutioning amongst themselves in ways that actually aren't helpful, but they make themselves, like you said, feel better and they promote within themselves. It's difficult to get people to undo that. JOHN: Yeah, it strikes me like you were talking about the wheelchairs that can go ramps, the exoskeletons, and there are certainly use cases for those sorts of things. But I think the distinction there is those are a solution to make the disabled people more abled rather than making the world more accessible. Like what they need is lower countertop so that in the wheelchair, they can still cook. That's what they need. Not the ability to walk upstairs, or have like you said, this awe-inspiring exoskeleton that just draws more attention to them and probably doesn't even solve most of the problems. MICHELE: I'm just going to say amen. [laughs] That is it. That is the thing we need people to get. So you'll hear about the models of disability, too. Sometimes you'll hear about – you should hear about the models of disability and when people extract that and summarize that, they usually pull out two, which is the medical model, which is generally what we've been under, which is the effects of disability and how that affects the person. Therefore, these things need to happen to overcome and this sort of again, hospital, kind of what the body's doing, or what the mind is doing mindset, which is opposite of one that people often quote, which is the social model. The social model says, “No, no society, the world, my environment is disabling me. If you would just give me something more adaptive, more inclusive, I'd be good.” So a lot of examples of that, I recently read a Kia Brown's book with a book club and you'll have to insert [chuckles] the link. The Pretty One is what it's called. Kia has cerebral palsy and one of the things that was a feat for her was putting her hair in a ponytail and it made you think about scrunchies and the makeup of that. What if we just made the mechanism to have maybe a little bit more to it to grab your hair and put it in the ponytail rather than relying on the fact that you have two hands that you can do that with? So those are the differences in the mindsets of our views of disability that we need people to shift and even go sometimes again, deeper into what it is you're really doing when it comes to inclusion. Are you really being inclusive, or are you saying, “Hey person, come on to what I believe is the way of life”? JOHN: So reflections, then. MICHELE: My reflection, or takeaway would be that my hope is that we can find room for everyone. Everyone who wants to create great tech, everyone who has an idea, everyone who has a contribution. I hope that that doesn't continue to need to filter through say, a non-disabled person, or a certain status of job title. My hope is that we're starting to recognize that there's room for everyone to provide their perspective and it can be valued and it can be included in the ways that we operate at equal opportunity. So that's hopefully, my reflection and my takeaway. JOHN: All right, I can go next. I think really actually the point that that's really sitting with me is what I had just said, which dawned on me as I was saying it, as we were talking in the last minute there about how the real solutions are, like you said, infrastructural. They're changing the form of society to make the disabled person able to do what they need to do rather than bringing them up to the level of whatever was currently built, or whatever that – and even there's a weird value judgment in saying, bringing them up to the level. I'm uncomfortable saying it that way. So just changing the thinking, like you said, the social model is, I think a powerful change and thought process around this, and I'm going to keep turning that one around in my head. REIN: I think for me, I'm coming back to the idea that just like security, accessibility has to be built in throughout the process of designing and building software. You can't have a part of your software delivery life cycle where that's the only place where you think about accessibility. You can't just think about it during design, for example, and you can't just have a team of accessibility experts that you go to sometimes when you need help with accessibility. It's really everyone's job and it's everyone's job all the time. MICHELE: I love it. I'm going to change the world. [laughs] Special Guest: Dr. Michele A. Williams.

Les références : AccessDV Linux, distribution GNU/Linux gérée par l'association ACIAH Koena Les principes d'accessibilité numérique (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines) édités par le World Wide Web Consortium Le lecteur d'écran libre Orca) (page de présentation sur Wikipédia) La Convention internationale relative aux droits des personnes handicapées CIDPH, adoptée par l'Assemblée générale des Nations unies en 2006, et que la France a signée en 2007 et ratifié en 2010 Fiches pédagogiques simplifiées pour la prise en main d'AccessDV Linux Forum d'AccessDFV Linux Présentation du projet Koena Connect Instance Mobilizon de Framasoft Plateforme de médiation de MobilizonVous pouvez commenter les émissions, nous faire des retours pour nous améliorer, ou encore des suggestions. Et même mettre une note sur 5 étoiles si vous le souhaitez. Il est important pour nous d'avoir vos retours car, contrairement par exemple à une conférence, nous n'avons pas un public en face de nous qui peut réagir. Pour cela, rendez-vous sur la page dédiée.

01:09 - Todd's Superpower: Advocacy For Accessibility * Getting Started * Designing With Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Standards-Jeffrey-Zeldman/dp/0321616952) * The A11Y Project (https://www.a11yproject.com/) * W3C (https://www.w3.org/) 06:18 - Joining The W3C * The W3C Community Page (https://www.w3.org/community/) 07:44 - Getting People/Companies/Stakeholders to Care/Prioritize About Accessibility * Making A Strong Case For Accessibility by Todd Libby (https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2021/07/strong-case-for-accessibility/) * Diplomatic Advocacy * You Don't Want To Get Sued! / $$$ * “We are all temporarily abled.” 15:20 - The Domino's Pizza Story * Supreme Court hands victory to blind man who sued Domino's over site accessibility (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/dominos-supreme-court.html) 18:21 - Things That Typically Aren't Accessible And Should Be * The WebAIM Million Report (https://webaim.org/projects/million/) * WCAG (https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/) * Color Contrast * Missing Alt Text on Images * Form Input Labels * What's New in WCAG 2.1: Label in Name by Todd Libby (https://css-tricks.com/whats-new-in-wcag-2-1-label-in-name/) * Empty Links * Not Using Document Language * Triggering GIFS / Flashing Content * Empty Buttons – Use a Button Element!! * Tab Order * Semantic HTML, Heading Structure 26:27 - Accessibility for Mobile Devices * Target Size * Looking at WCAG 2.5.5 for Better Target Sizes (https://css-tricks.com/looking-at-wcag-2-5-5-for-better-target-sizes/) * Dragging Movements 28:08 - Color Contrast * Contrast Ratio (https://contrast-ratio.com/) 33:02 - Designing w/ Accessibility in Mind From the Very Beginning * Accessibility Advocates on Every Team * Accessibility Training 36:22 - Contrast (Cont'd) 38:11 - Automating Accessibility! * axe-core-gems (https://github.com/dequelabs/axe-core-gems) Reflections: Mae: Eyeballing for contrast. John: We are all only temporarily abled and getting the ball rolling on building accessibility in from the beginning of projects going forward and fixing older codebases. Mandy: Using alt-tags going forward on all social media posts. Todd: Accessibility work will never end. Accessibility is a right not a privilege. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JOHN: Welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 251. I'm John Sawers and I'm here with Mae Beale. MAE: Hi, there! And also, Mandy Moore. MANDY: Hi, everyone! I'm Mandy Moore and I'm here today with our guest, Todd Libby. Todd Libby is a professional web developer, designer, and accessibility advocate for 22 years under many different technologies starting with HTML/CSS, Perl, and PHP. Todd has been an avid learner of web technologies for over 40 years starting with many flavors of BASIC all the way to React/Vue. Currently an Accessibility Analyst at Knowbility, Todd is also a member of the W3C. When not coding, you'll usually find Todd tweeting about lobster rolls and accessibility. So before I ask you what your superpower is, I'm going to make a bet and my bet is that I'm 80% positive that your superpower has something to do with lobster rolls. Am I right? [laughter] Am I right? TODD: Well, 80% of the time, you'd be right. I just recently moved to Phoenix, Arizona. So I was actually going to say advocacy for accessibility, but yes, lobster rolls and the consumption of lobster rolls are a big part. MAE: I love it. That's fantastic. MANDY: Okay. Well, tell me about the advocacy. [chuckles] TODD: So it started with seeing family members who are disabled, friends who are disabled, or have family members themselves who are disabled, and the struggles they have with trying to access websites, or web apps on the web and the frustration, the look of like they're about ready to give up. That's when I knew that I would try to not only make my stuff that I made accessible, but to advocate for people in accessibility. MAE: Thank you so much for your work. It is critical. I have personally worked with a number of different populations and started at a camp for children with critical illnesses and currently work at an organization that offers financial services for people with disabilities – well, complex financial needs, which the three target populations that we work with are people with disabilities, people with dementia, and people in recovery. So really excited to talk with you today. Thanks. TODD: You're welcome. JOHN: When you started that journey, did you already have familiarity with accessibility, or was it all just like, “Oh, I get to learn all this stuff so I can start making it better”? TODD: So I fell into it because if you're like me and you started with making table-based layouts way back in the day, because what we had—Mosaic browser, Netscape Navigator, and Internet Explorer—we were making table-based layouts, which were completely inaccessible, but I didn't know that. As the web progressed, I progressed and then I bought a little orange book by Jeffrey Zeldman, Designing with Web Standards, and that pretty much started me on my journey—semantic HTML, progressive enhancement in web standards, and accessibility as well. I tend to stumble into a lot of stuff [laughs] so, and that's a habit of mine. [laughs] MAE: It sounds like it's a good habit and you're using it to help all the other people. So I hate to encourage you to keep stumbling, but by all means. [laughter] Love it. If you were to advise someone wanting to know more about accessibility, would you suggest they start with that same book too, or what would you suggest to someone stumbling around in the dark and not hitting anything yet? TODD: The book is a little outdated. I think the last edition of his book was, I want to say 2018, maybe even further back than that. I would suggest people go on websites like The A11Y project, the a11yproject.com. They have a comprehensive list of resources, links to learning there. Twitter is a good place to learn, to follow people in the accessibility space. The other thing that, if people really want to dive in, is to join The W3C. That's a great place and there's a lot of different groups. You have the CSS Working Group, you have the accessibility side of things, which I'm a part of, the Silver Community Group, which is we're working on the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 3.0, which is still a little ways down the road, but a lot of great people and a lot of different companies. Some of those companies we've heard of—Google, Apple, companies like that all the way down to individuals. Individuals can join as individuals if your company isn't a member of the W3C. So those are the three things that I mainly point to people. If you don't really want to dive into the W3C side of things, there's a lot of resources on the a11yproject.com website that you can look up. MANDY: So what does being a member entail? What do you have to do? Do you have to pay dues? Do you have to do certain projects, maybe start as an individual level, because I'm sure we have mostly individuals listening to the show. Me as a newbie coder, what would I do to get started as a member of this initiative? TODD: Well, I started out as an individual myself, so I joined and I can get you the link to The W3C Community Page. Go to sign up as an individual and someone will approve the form process that you go through—it's nothing too big, it's nothing complicated—and then that will start you on your way. You can join a sub group, you can join a group, a working group, and it doesn't cost an individual. Companies do pay dues to the W3C and if your company is in the W3C, you get ahold of your company's liaison and there's a process they go through to add you to a certain group. Because with me, it was adding me to The Silver Community Group. But as an individual, you can join in, you can hop right into a meeting from there, and then that's basically it. That's how you start. JOHN: What are the challenges you see in getting not only the goals of a W3C, but I'm assuming specifically around accessibility? TODD: Some of the things that I've seen is buy-in from stakeholders is probably the number one hurdle, or barrier. Companies, stakeholders, and board members, they don't think of, or in some cases, they don't care about accessibility until a company is getting sued and that's a shame. That's one of the things that I wrote about; I have an article on Smashing Magazine. Making A Strong Case for Accessibility, it's called and that is one of few things that I've come across. Getting buy-in from stakeholders and getting buy-in from colleagues as well because you have people that they don't think about accessibility, they think about a number of different things. Mostly what I've come across is they don't think about accessibility because there's no budget, or they don't have the time, or the company doesn't have the time. It's not approved by the company. The other thing that is right up there is it's a process—accessibility—making things accessible and most people think that it's a big this huge mountain to climb. If you incorporate accessibility from the beginning of your project, it's so much easier. You don't have to go back and you don't have to climb that mountain because you've waited until the very end. “Oh, we have time now so we'll do the accessibility stuff,” that makes it more hard. MAE: John, your question actually was similar to something I was thinking about with how you developed this superpower and I was going to ask and still will now. [chuckles] How did you afford all the time in the different places where you were overtime to be able to get this focus? And so, how did you make the case along the way and what things did you learn in that persuasion class of life [chuckles] that was able to allow you to have that be where you could focus and spend more time on and have the places where you work prioritize successful? TODD: It was a lot of, I call it diplomatic advocacy. So for instance, the best example I have is I had been hired to make a website, a public facing website, and a SAAS application accessible. The stakeholder I was directly reporting to, we were sitting down in a meeting one day and I said, “Well, I want to make sure that accessibility is the number one priority on these projects,” and he shot back with, “Well, we don't have the disabled users,” and that nearly knocked me back to my chair. [laughs] So that was a surprise. MAE: There's some groaning inside and I had to [chuckles] do it out loud for a moment. Ooh. TODD: Yeah, I did my internal groaning at the meeting so that just was – [chuckles] Yeah, and I remember that day very vividly and I probably will for the rest of my life that I looked at him and I had to stop and think, and I said, “Well, you never know, there's always a chance that you're able, now you could be disabled at any time.” I also pointed out that his eyeglasses that he wore are an assistive technology. So there was some light shed on that and that propelled me even further into advocacy and the accessibility side of things. That meeting really opened my eyes to not everyone is going to get it, not everyone is going to be on board, not everyone is going to think about disabled users; they really aren't. So from there I used that example. I also use what I call the Domino's Pizza card lately because “Oh, you don't want to get sued.' That's my last resort as far as advocacy goes. Other than that, it's showing a videotape of people using their product that are disabled and they can't use it. That's a huge difference maker, when a stakeholder sees that somebody can't use their product. There's numbers out there now that disabled users in this country alone, the United States, make up 25% of the population, I believe. They have a disposable income of $8 trillion. The visually disabled population alone is, I believe it was $1.6 billion, I think. I would have to check that number again, but it's a big number. So the money side of things really gets through to a stakeholder faster than “Well, your eyeglasses are a assistive technology.” So once they hear the financial side of things, their ears perk up real quick and then they maybe get on board. I've never had other than one stakeholder just saying, “No, we're just going to skip that,” and then that company ended up getting sued. So that says a lot, to me anyways. But that's how I really get into it. And then there was a time where I was working for another company. I was doing consulting for them and I was doing frontend mostly. So it was accessibility, but also at the same time, it was more the code side of things. That was in 2018. 2019, I went to a conference in Burlington, Vermont. I saw a friend of mine speaking and he was very passionate about it and that talk, and there was a couple others there as well, it lit that fire under me again, and I jumped right back in and ever since then, it's just then accessibility. MAE: You reminded me one of the arguments, or what did you say? Diplomatic advocacy statements that I have used is that we are all temporarily abled. [chuckles] Like, that's just how it is and seeing things that way we can really shift how you orient to the idea of as other and reduce the othering. But I was also wondering how long it would be before Pizza Hut came up in our combo. [laughter] MANDY: Yeah, I haven't heard of that. Can you tell us what that is? TODD: [chuckles] So it was Domino's and they had a blind user that tried to use their app. He couldn't use their app; their app wasn't accessible. He tried to use the website; the website wasn't accessible. I have a link that I can send over to the whole story because I'm probably getting bits and pieces wrong. But from what I can recall, basically, this user sued Domino's and instead of Domino's spending, I believe it was $36,000 to fix their website and their app, they decided to drag it out for a number of years through court and of course, spent more money than just $36,000. In the end, they lost. I think they tried to appeal to the Supreme Court because they've gone up as high as federal court, but regardless, they lost. They had to – and I don't know if they still have an inaccessible site, or not, or the app for that matter because I don't go to Domino's. But that's basically the story that they had; a user who tried to access the app and the website, couldn't use it, and they got taken to court. Now Domino's claimed, in the court case, that he could have used the telephone, but he had tried to use the telephone twice and was on hold for 45 minutes. So [laughs] that says a lot. JOHN: Looks like it actually did go to the Supreme Court. TODD: Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think they did not want to hear it. They just said, “No, we're not going to hear the case.” Yeah, and just think about all these apps we use and all the people that can't access those apps, or the websites. I went to some company websites because I was doing some research, big companies, and a lot of them are inaccessible. A little number that I can throw out there: every year, there's been a little over 2,500 lawsuits in the US. This year, if the rate keeps on going that it has, we're on course for over 4,000 lawsuits in the US alone for inaccessible websites. You've had companies like Target, Bank of America, Winn-Dixie, those kinds of companies have been sued by people because of inaccessible sites. MAE: Okay, but may I say this one thing, which is, I just want to extend my apologies to Pizza Hut. [laughter] MANDY: What kinds of things do you see as not being accessible that should be or easily could be that companies just simply aren't doing? TODD: The big one, still and if you go to webaim.org/projects/million, it's The WebAIM Million report. It's an annual accessibility analysis of the top 1 million home pages on the internet. The number one thing again, this year is color contracts. There are guidelines in place. WCAG, which is the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, that text should be a 4.5:1 ratio that reaches the minimum contrast for texts. It's a lot of texts out there that doesn't even reach that. So it's color contrast. You'll find a lot of, if you look at—I'm looking at the chart right now—missing alt texts on images. If you have an image that is informative, or you have an image that is conveying something to a user, it has to have alternative text describing what's in the picture. You don't have to go into a long story about what's in the picture and describe it thoroughly; you can just give a quick overview as to what the picture is trying to convey, what is in the picture. And then another one being another failure type a is form input labels; labels that are not labeled correctly. I wrote a article about that [chuckles] on CSS-Tricks and that is, there's programmatic and there's accessible names for form labels that not only help the accessibility side of it, as far as making the site accessible, but also it helps screen reader users read forms and navigate through forms, keyboard users also. Then you have empty links and then a big one that I've seen lately is if you look up in the source code, you see the HTML tag, and the language attribute, a lot of sites now, because they use trademarks, they don't have a document language. I ran across a lot of sites that don't use a document language. They're using a framework. I won't name names because I'm not out to shame, but having that attribute helps screen reader users and I think that's a big thing. A lot of accessibility, people don't understand. People use screen readers, or other assistive technologies, for instance, Dragon NaturallySpeaking voice input. But at the same time, I've got to also add accessibility is more than just deaf, or blind. I suffer from migraines, migraine headaches so animation, or motion from say, parallax scrolling can trigger a migraine. Animations that are too fast, that also trigger migraine headache. You have flashing content that can potentially cause seizures and that's actually happened before where an animated GIF was intentionally sent to someone and it caused a seizure and almost killed the person. So there's those and then the last thing on this list that I'm looking at right now, and these are common failures, empty buttons. You have buttons that don't have labels. Buttons that have Click here. Buttons need to be descriptive. So you want to have – on my site to send me something on the contact form, it's Send this info to Todd, Click here, or something similar like that. MAE: Can you think of any, John that you know of, too? I've got a couple of mind. How about you, Mandy? MANDY: For me, because I'm just starting out, I don't know a whole lot about accessibility. That's why I'm here; I'm trying to learn. But I am really conscious and careful of some of the GIFs that I use, because I do know that some of the motion ones, especially really fast-moving ones, can cause problems, migraines, seizures for people. So when posting those, I'm really, really mindful about it. JOHN: Yeah, the Click here one is always bothers me too, because not only is it bad accessibility, it's bad UX. Like HTML loves you to turn anything into a link so you can make all the words inside the button and it's just fine. [laughs] There's so many other ways to do it that are just – even discounting the accessibility impact, which I don't want it. TODD: Yeah, and touching upon that, I'm glad you brought up the button because I was just going to let that go [chuckles] past me. I have to say and I think it was in the email where it said, “What's bothering you?” What bothers me is people that don't use the button. If you are using a div, or an anchor tag, or a span, stop it. [laughs] Just stop it. There's a button element for that. I read somewhere that anchor tag takes you somewhere, a div is a container, but button is for a button. MAE: I love that. The only other ones I could think of is related to something you said, making sure to have tab order set up properly to allow people to navigate. Again, I liked your point about you don't have to be fully blind to benefit from these things and having keyboard accessibility can benefit a lot of people for all kinds of reasons. The other one is, and I would love to hear everybody's thoughts on this one, I have heard that we're supposed to be using h1, h2, h3 and having proper setup of our HTML and most of us fail just in that basic part. That's another way of supporting people to be able to navigate around and figure out what's about to be on this page and how much should I dig into it? So more on non-visual navigation stuff. TODD: Yeah, heading structure is hugely important for keyboard users and screen reader users as well as tab order and that's where semantic HTML comes into play. If you're running semantic HTML, HTML by default, save for a few caveats, is accessible right out of the box. If your site and somebody can navigate through using let's say, the keyboard turns and they can navigate in a way that is structurally logical, for instance and it has a flow to it that makes sense, then they're going to be able to not only navigate that site, but if you're selling something on that site, you're going to have somebody buying something probably. So that's again, where tab order and heading structure comes into play and it's very important. JOHN: I would assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, or if you know this, that the same sort of accessibility enhancements are available in native mobile applications that aren't using each HTML, is that correct? TODD: Having not delved into the mobile side of things with apps myself, that I really can't answer. I can say, though, that the WCAG guidelines, that does pertain to mobile as well as desktop. There's no certain set of rules. 2.2 is where there are some new features that from mobile, for instance, target size and again, I wrote another article on CSS-Tricks about target size as well. So it's if you ever noticed those little ads that you just want to click off and get off your phone and they have those little tiny Xs and you're sitting there tapping all day? Those are the things target size and dragging movements as well. I did an audit for an app and there was a lot of buttons that were not named. A lot of the accessibility issues I ran into were the same as I would run into doing an audit on a website. I don't know anything about Swift, or Flutter, or anything like that, they pretty much fall into the same category with [inaudible] as far as accessible. JOHN: I also wanted to circle back on the first item that you listed as far as the WebAIM million thing was color contrast, which is one of those ones where a designer comes up with something that looks super cool and sleek, but it's dark gray on a light gray background. It looks great when you've got perfect eyesight, but anybody else, they're just like, “Oh my God, what's that?” That's also one of the things that's probably easiest to change site-wide; it's like you go in and you tweak the CSS and you're done in a half hour and you've got the whole site updated. So it's a great bit of low-hanging fruit that you can attach if you want to start on this process. TODD: Yeah. Color contrast is of course, as the report says, this is the number one thing and let me look back here. It's slowly, the numbers are dropping, but 85.3%, that's still a very high number of failures and there's larger text. If you're using anything over 18 pixels, or the equivalent of 18—it's either 18 points, or 18 pixels—is a 3:1 ratio. With that color contrast is how our brains perceive color. It's not the actual contrast of that color and there are people far more qualified than me going to that, or that can go into that. So what I'll say is I've seen a lot of teams and companies, “Yeah, we'll do a little over 4.5:1 and we'll call it a day.” But I always say, if you can do 7:1, or even 10:1 on your ratios and you can find a way to make your brand, or whatever the same, then go for it. A lot of the time you hear, “Well, we don't want to change the colors of our brand.” Well, your colors of your brand aren't accessible to somebody who that has, for instance, Tritanopia, which is, I think it's blues and greens are very hard to see, or they don't see it at all. Color deficiencies are a thing that design teams aren't going to check for. They're just not. Like you said, all these colors look awesome so let's just, we're going to go with that on our UI. That's one thing that I actually ran into on that SAAS product that I spoke about earlier was there was these colors and these colors were a dark blue, very muted dark blue with orange text. You would think the contrast would be oh yeah, they would be all right, but it was horrible. JOHN: You can get browser plugins, that'll show you what the page looks like. So you can check these things yourself. Like you can go in and say, “Oh, you're right. That's completely illegible.” TODD: Yeah. Firefox, like I have right here on my work machine. I have right here Firefox and it does this. There's a simulator for a visual color deficiencies. It also checks for contrast as well. Chrome has one, which it actually has a very cool eyedropper to check for color contrast. If you use the inspector also in Firefox, that brings up a little contrast thing. The WAVE extension has a contrast tool. There's also a lot of different apps. If you have a Mac, like I do, I have too many color contrast because I love checking out these color contrast apps. So I have about five different color contrast apps on my Mac, but there's also websites, too that you can use at the same time. Just do a search for polar contrast. Contrast Ratio, contrast-ratio.com, is from Lea Verou. I use that one a lot. A lot of people use that one. There's so many of them out there choose from, but they are very handy tool at designer's disposal and at developers' disposal as well. JOHN: So I'm trying to think of, like I was saying earlier, the color contrast one is one of those things that's probably very straightforward; you can upgrade your whole site in a short amount of time. Color contrast is a little trickier because it gets into branding and marketing's going to want to care about it and all that kind of stuff. So you might have a bit more battle around that, but it could probably be done and you might be able to fix, at least the worst parts of the page that have problems around that. So I'm just trying to think of the ways that you could get the ball rolling on this kind of a work. Like if you can get those early easy wins, it's going to get more people on board with the process and not saying like, “Oh, it's going to take us eight months and we have to go through every single page and change it every forum.” That sounds really daunting when you think about it and so, trying to imagine what those easy early wins are that can get people down that road. TODD: Yeah. Starting from the very outset of the project is probably the key one: incorporating accessibility from the start of the project. Like I said earlier, it's a lot easier when you do it from the start rather than waiting till the very end, or even after the product has been launched and you go back and go, “Oh, well, now we need to fix it.” You're not only putting stress on your teams, but it's eating up time and money because you're now paying everybody to go back and look at all these accessibility issues there. Having one person as a dedicated accessibility advocate on each team helps immensely. So you have one person on the development team, one person on the dev side, one person on the marketing team, starting from the top. If somebody goes there to a stakeholder and says, “Listen, we need to start incorporating accessibility from the very start, here's why,” Nine times out of ten, I can guarantee you, you're probably going to get that stakeholder onboard. That tenth time, you'll have to go as far as maybe I did and say, “Well, Domino's Pizza, or Bank of America, or Target.” Again, their ears are going to perk up and they're going to go, “Oh, well, I don't really, we don't want to get sued.” So that, and going back to having one person on each team: training. There are so many resources out there for accessibility training. There are companies out there that train, there are companies that you can bring in to the organization that will train, that'll help train. That's so easier than what are we going to do? A lot of people just sitting there in a room and go, “How are you going to do this?” Having that person in each department getting together with everybody else, that's that advocate for each department, meeting up and saying, “Okay, we're going to coordinate. You're going to put out a fantastic product that's going to be accessible and also, at the same time, the financial aspect is going to make the company money. But most of all, it's going to include a lot of people that are normally not included if you're putting out an accessible product.” Because if you go to a certain website, I can guarantee you it's going to be inaccessible—just about 99% of the web isn't accessible—and it's going to be exclusive as it's going to – somebody is going to get shut out of the site, or app. So this falls on the applications as well. Another thing too, I just wanted to throw in here for color contrast. There are different – you have color contrast text, but you also have non-text contrast, you have texts in images, that kind of contrast as well and it does get a little confusing. Let's face it, the guidelines right now, it's a very technically written – it's like a technical manual. A lot of people come up to me and said, “I can't read this. I can't make sense of this. Can you translate this?” So hopefully, and this is part of the work that I'm doing with a lot of other people in the W3C is where making the language of 3.0 in plain language, basically. It's going to be a lot easier to understand these guidelines instead of all that technical jargon. I look at something right now and I'm scratching my head when I'm doing an audit going, “Okay, what do they mean by this?” All these people come together and we agree on what to write. What is the language that's going to go into this? So when they got together 2.0, which was years and years ago, they said, “Okay, this is going to be how we're going to write this and we're going to publish this,” and then we had a lot of people just like me scratching their heads of not understanding it. So hopefully, and I'm pretty sure, 99.9% sure that it's going to be a lot easier for people to understand. MAE: That sounds awesome. And if you end up needing a bunch of play testers, I bet a lot of our listeners would be totally willing to put in some time. I know I would. Just want to put in one last plug for anybody out there who really loves automating things and is trying to avoid relying on any single developer, or designer, or QA person to remember to check for accessibility is to build it into your CI/CD pipeline. There are a lot of different options. Another approach to couple with that, or do independently is to use the axe core gems, and that link will be in the show notes, where it'll allow you to be able to sprinkle in your tests, accessibility checks on different pieces. So if we've decided we're going to handle color contrast, cool, then it'll check that. But if we're not ready to deal with another point of accessibility, then we can skip it. So it's very similar to Robocop. Anyway, just wanted to offer in some other tips and tricks of the trade to be able to get going on accessibility and then once you get that train rolling, it can do a little better, but it is hard to start from scratch. JOHN: That's a great tip, Mae. Thank you. TODD: Yeah, definitely. MANDY: Okay. Well, with that, I think it's about time we head into reflections; the point of the show, where we talk about something that we thought stood out, that we want to think about more, or a place that we can call for a call of action to our listeners, or even to ourselves. Who wants to go first? MAE: I can go first. I learned something awesome from you, Todd, which I have not thought of before, which is if I am eyeballing for “contrast,” especially color contrast, that's not necessarily what that means. I really appreciate learning that and we'll definitely be applying that in my daily life. [chuckles] So thanks for teaching me a whole bunch of things, including that. TODD: You're welcome. JOHN: I think for me, it's just the continuing reminder to – I do like the thinking that, I think Mae have brought up and also Todd was talking about earlier at the beginning about how we're all of us temporarily not disabled and that I think it helps bring some of that empathy a little closer to us. So it makes it a little more accessible to us to realize that it's going to happen to us at some point, at some level, and to help then bring that empathy to the other people who are currently in that state and really that's, I think is a useful way of thinking about it. Also, the idea that I've been thinking through as we've been talking about this is how do we get the ball rolling on this? We have an existing application that's 10 years old that's going to take a lot to get it there, but how do we get the process started so we feel like we're making progress there rather than just saying, “Oh, we did HTML form 27 out of 163. All right, back at it tomorrow.” It's hard to think about, so feeling like there's progress is a good thing. TODD: Yeah, definitely and as we get older, our eyes, they're one of the first things to go. So I'm going to need assistive technology at some point so, yeah. And then what you touched upon, John. It may be daunting having to go back and do the whole, “Okay, what are we going to do for accessibility now that this project, it's 10 years old, 15 years old?” The SAAS project that I was talking about, it was 15-year-old code, .net. I got people together; one from each department. We all got together and we ended up making that product accessible for them. So it can be done. [laughs] It can be done. JOHN: That's actually a good point. Just hearing about successes in the wild with particularly hard projects is a great thing. Because again, I'm thinking about it at the start of our project and hearing that somebody made it all through and maybe even repeatedly is hard. TODD: Yeah. It's not something that once it's done, it's done. Accessibility, just like the web, is an ever-evolving media. MANDY: For me. I think my reflection is going to be, as a new coder, I do want to say, I'm glad that we talked about a lot of the things that you see that aren't currently accessible that can be accessible. One of those things is using alt tags and right now, I know when I put the social media posts out on Twitter, I don't use the alt tags and I should. So just putting an alt tag saying, “This is a picture of our guest, Todd” and the title of the show would probably be helpful for some of our listeners. So I'm going to start doing that. So thank you. TODD: You're welcome. I'm just reminded of our talk and every talk that I have on a podcast, or with anybody just reminds me of the work that I have to do and the work that is being done by a lot of different people, other than myself as well, as far as advocacy goes in that I don't think it's ever going to be a job that will ever go away. There will always be a need for accessibility advocacy for the web and it's great just to be able to sit down and talk to people about accessibility and what we need to do to make the web better and more inclusive for everybody. Because I tweet out a lot, “Accessibility is a right, not a privilege,” and I really feel that to my core because the UN specifically says that the internet is a basic human and I went as far as to go say, “Well, so as an accessibility of that internet as well.” So that is my reflection. MAE: I'll add an alt tag for me right now is with a fist up and a big smile and a lot of enthusiasm in my heart. MANDY: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Todd. It's been really great talking with you and I really appreciate you coming on the show to share with us your knowledge and your expertise on the subject of accessibility. So with that, I will close out the show and say we do have a Slack and Todd will be invited to it if he'd like to talk more to us and the rest of the Greater Than Code community. You can visit patreon.com/greaterthancode and pledge to support us monthly and again, if you cannot afford that, or do not want to pledge to help run the show, you can DM anyone of us and we will get you in there for free because we want to make the Slack channel accessible for all. Have a great week and we'll see you next time. Goodbye! Special Guest: Todd Libby.

02:51 - Jennifer's Superpower: Kindness & Empathy * Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-complex-ptsd-2797491) (C-PTSD) 07:37 - Equitable Design and Inclusive Design * Section 508 (https://www.section508.gov/) Compliance * Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/) (WCAG) * HmntyCentrd (https://hmntycntrd.com/) * Creative Reaction Lab (https://www.creativereactionlab.com/) 15:43 - Biases and Prejudices * Self-Awareness * Daniel Kahneman's System 1 & System 2 Thinking (https://www.marketingsociety.com/think-piece/system-1-and-system-2-thinking) * Jennifer Strickland: “You're Killing Your Users!” (https://vimeo.com/506548868) 22:57 - So...What do we do? How do we get people to care? * Caring About People Who Aren't You * Listening * Using Web Standards and Prioritizing Web Accessibility * Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Standards-Jeffrey-Zeldman/dp/0321616952) * Bulletproof Web Design by Dan Cederholm (https://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Web-Design-flexibility-protecting/dp/0321509021) * Progressive Enhancement * Casey's Cheat Sheet (https://moritzgiessmann.de/accessibility-cheatsheet/) * Jennifer Strickland: “Ohana for Digital Service Design” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfsZlkm59BE) * Self-Care 33:22 - How Ego Plays Into These Things * Actions Impact Others * For, With, and By * Indi Young (https://indiyoung.com/) 44:05 - Empathy and Accessibility * Testability/Writing Tests * Screen Readers * TalkBack (https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/6283677?hl=en) * Microsoft Narrator (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/complete-guide-to-narrator-e4397a0d-ef4f-b386-d8ae-c172f109bdb1) * NVDA (https://www.nvaccess.org/about-nvda/) * Jaws (https://www.freedomscientific.com/products/software/jaws/) * Heydon Pickering (https://twitter.com/heydonworks/status/969520320754438144) Reflections: Casey: Animals can have cognitive disabilities too. Damien: Equitable design initiatives and destroying the tenants of white supremacy. Jennifer: Rest is key. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDO: Hello, friends! Welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode number 243. My name is Mando Escamilla and I'm here with my wonderful friend, Damien Burke. DAMIEN: Thank you, Mando, and I am here with our wonderful friend, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're all here today with Jennifer Strickland. With more than 25 years of experience across the product lifecycle, Jennifer aims to ensure no one is excluded from products and services. She first heard of Ohana in Disney's Lilo & Stitch, “Ohana means family. Family means no one gets left behind, or forgotten.” People don't know what they don't know and are often unaware of the corners they cut that exclude people. Empathy, compassion, and humility are vital to communication about these issues. That's Jennifer focus in equitable design initiatives. Welcome, Jennifer! JENNIFER: Hi! DAMIEN: You're welcome. MANDO: Hi, Jennifer. So glad you're here. JENNIFER: I'm so intrigued. [laughs] And I'm like 243 and this is the first I'm hearing of it?! DAMIEN: Or you can go back and listen to them all. MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: That must be 5, almost 6 years? JENNIFER: Do you have transcripts of them all? CASEY: Yes. JENNIFER: Great! MANDO: Yeah. I think we do. I think they're all transcribed now. JENNIFER: I'm one of those people [chuckles] that prefers to read things than listen. DAMIEN: I can relate to that. CASEY: I really enjoy Coursera courses. They have this interface where you can listen, watch the video, and there's a transcript that moves and highlights sentence by sentence. I want that for everything. MANDO: Oh, yeah. That's fantastic. It's like closed captioning [laughs] for your audio as well. JENNIFER: You can also choose the speed, which I appreciate. I generally want to speed things up, which yes, now that I'm getting older, I have to realize life is worth slowing down for. But when you're in a life where survival is what you're focused on, because you have a bunch of things that are slowing your roll and survival is the first thing in your mind, you tend to take all the jobs, work all the jobs, do all of the things because it's how you get out of poverty, or whatever your thing is. So I've realized how much I've multitasked and worked and worked and worked and I'm realizing that there is a part of the equality is lost there, but we don't all have the privilege of slowing down. DAMIEN: I can relate to that, too. So I believe every one of our past 243 episodes, we asked our guests the same question. You should know this is coming. Jennifer, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? JENNIFER: I don't know for sure. People have told me that I'm the kindest person they've ever met, people have said I'm the most empathetic person I've ever met, and I'm willing to bet that they're the same thing. To the people, they just see them differently. I acquired being empathetic and kind because of my dysfunction in my invisible disabilities. I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder from childhood trauma and then repeated life trauma, and the way it manifests itself is trying to anticipate other people's needs, emotions, moods, and all of that and not make people mad. So that's a negative with a golden edge. Life is full of shit; how you respond to it shows who you are and rather than molesting kids, or hurting people, I chose to do what I could to make sure that no one else goes through that and also, to try to minimize it coming at me anymore, too. [chuckles] But there's positive ways of doing it. You don't have to be like the people who were crappy to you and the same goes like, you're in D.C.? Man, they're terrible drivers and it's like, [laughter] everybody's taking their bad day and putting it out on the people they encounter, whether it's in the store, or on the roads. I was like, “Don't do that.” Like, how did it feel when your boss treated you like you were garbage, why would you treat anyone else like garbage? Be the change, so to speak. But we're all where we are and like I said in my bio, “You don't know what you don't know.” I realized earlier this week that it actually comes from Donald Rumsfeld who said, “Unknown unknowns.” I'm like, “Oh my God. Oh my God.” MANDO: You can find good in lots of places, right? [laughs] JENNIFER: If you choose to. MANDO: Absolutely. Yeah. JENNIFER: Look at, what's come out of the horror last year. We talk about shit that we didn't use to talk about. Yeah, it's more exhausting when lots of people, but I think in the long run, it will help move us in the right direction. I hope. MANDO: Yeah. That's absolutely the hope, isn't it? JENNIFER: We don't know what we don't know at this time. My sister was volunteering at the zoo and she worked in the Ape House, which I was super jealous of. There's an orangutan there named Lucy who I love and Lucy loves bags, pouches, and lipstick. So I brought a backpack with a pouch and some old lipstick in it and I asked a volunteer if I could draw on the glass. They gave me permission so I made big motions as I opened the backpack and I opened the pouch and you see Lucy and her eyes are like, she's starting to side-eye me like something's going on. And then she runs over and hops up full-time with her toes on the window cell and she's like right up there. So I'm drawing on the glass with the lipstick and she's loving it, reaches her hand behind, poops into her hand, takes the poop and repeats this little actions on the glass. MANDO: [laughs] Which is amazing. It's hilarious so that's amazing. JENNIFER: It's fantastic. I just think she's the bomb. My sister would always send pictures and tell me about what Lucy got into and stuff. Lucy lived with people who would dress her in people clothing and so, she's the only one of the orangutans that didn't grow up only around orangutans so the other orangutans exclude her and treat her like she's a weirdo and she's also the one who likes to wear clothes. Like my sister gave her an FBI t-shirt so she wears the FBI t-shirt and things like that. She's special in my heart. Like I love the Lucy with all of it. DAMIEN: Well, that's a pretty good display of your super empathetic superpower there. [laughter] And it sounds like it might be really also related to the equitable design initiatives? JENNIFER: Yeah. So I'm really grateful. I currently work at a place that although one would think that it would be a big, scary place because of some of the work that we do. I've found more people who know what equity is and care about what equity is. The place I worked before, I talked about inclusive design because that's everywhere else I've worked, it's common that that's what you're doing these days. But they told me, “Don't say that word, it's activism,” and I was stunned. And then I'm like, “It's all in GSA documents here,” and they were like, “Oh,” and they were the ones that were really bad about like prioritizing accessibility and meeting section 508 compliance and just moving it off to put those issues in the backlog. The client's happy, no one's complained, they think we're doing great work. It's like, you're brushing it all under the rug and you're telling them what you've done and you're dealing with people who don't know what section 508 is either because who does? Very few people really know what it means to be section 508 compliant because it's this mystery container. What is in this? What is this? What is this thing? DAMIEN: So for our listeners who don't know, can you tell us a bit what section 508 is? JENNIFER: Sure. So section 508 means that anything paid for with federal funds must be section 508 compliant, which means it must meet WCAG 2.0 success criteria and WCAG is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. If you're ever looking for some really complicated, dense, hard to understand reading, I recommend opening up the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. I think the people that are on the working groups with me would probably agree and that's what we're all working towards trying to improve them. But I think that they make the job harder. So rather than just pointing at them and complaining like a lot of people do on Twitter, or deciding “I'm going to create a business and make money off of making this clear for people,” I decided instead to join and try to make it better. So the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are based on Perceivable, Operable, Understandable, and Robust, POUR. Pour like this, not poor like me. [laughs] So there's just a bunch of accessibility criteria that you have to meet to make your work section 508 compliant. It's so hard to read and so hard to understand that I feel for everybody like of course, you don't know what section 508 compliance is. It's really, really hard to read. But if somebody who is an accessibility specialist tells you and writes up an issue ticket, you don't argue with them. You don't say, “This isn't a thing,” you say, “Okay, how soon do I need to fix it?” and you listen to them, but that's not what I experienced previously. Where I am now, it's amazing. In the place I worked before here, like just the contracting, they welcomed everything I said to them regarding accessibility. So I just clearly worked at a contractor that was doing a lot of lip service and not talking the talk, not walking the talk, sorry. [laughs] Super frustrating. Because accessibility is only a piece of it. I am older probably than anybody on this call and I'm a woman working in tech and I identify as non-binary. The arguments I've had about they/them all my life have been stupid, but I'm just like, “Why do I have to be female?” It's just, why do I have to be one, or the other? Anyway, everyone has always argued with me so I'm so grateful for the young ones now for pushing all that. I'm Black, Native, Mexican, and white all smushed together and my grandma wouldn't let me in the house because apparently my father was too dark so therefore, I'm too dark. Hello? Look at this! [laughter] Currently, some people are big on the one drop rule and I always say to people, “If you hate me, or want to exclude me so much because somewhere in me you know there is this and how do you feel about so-and-so? I'm done with you and you are bad people and we've got to fight this stupidity.” I have also invisible disabilities. So I'm full of all these intersectional things of exclusion. I personally experience a lot of it and then I have the empathy so I'm always feeling fuzzy people who are excluded. So what am I supposed to do with the fact that I'm smart, relatively able-bodied, and have privilege of being lighter skin so I can be a really good Trojan horse? I have to be an advocate like, what else am I supposed to do with my life? Be a privileged piece of poop that just wants to get rich and famous, like a lot of people in tech? Nope. And I don't want to be virtue signaling and savior complex either and that's where equitable design has been a wonderful thing to learn more about. HmntyCntrd.com and Creative Reaction Lab out in Missouri, those are two places where people can do a lot of learning about equity and truly inclusion, and challenging the tenants of white supremacy in our working ways. I'm still trying to find better ways of saying the tenants of white supremacy because if you say that in the workplace, that sounds real bad, especially a few months back before when someone else was in office. When you say the tenants of white supremacy in the workplace, people are going to get a little rankled because that's not stuff we talk about in the workplace. DAMIEN: Well, it's not just the workplace. JENNIFER: Ah, yes. DAMIEN: They don't like that at sports bars either. Ask me how I know. MANDO: No, they sure don't. [laughter] JENNIFER: We should go to sports bars together. [laughs] Except I'm too scared to go to them right now unless they're outdoors. But when we talk to people about the actual individual tenants about power hoarding, perfectionism, worship of the written word, and things like that, people can really relate and then you watch their faces and they go, “Yeah, I do feel put my place by these things and prevented from succeeding, progressing, all of these things.” These are things that we've all been ingrained to believe are the way we evaluate what's good and what's bad. But we don't have to. We can talk about this stuff when we can reject those things and replace them with other things. But I'm going to be spending the rest of my life trying to dismantle my biases. I'm okay with my prejudices because even since I was a kid, I recognized that we were all prejudice and it's okay. It's our knee jerk first assumption, but you always have to keep an open mind, but that prejudice is there to protect you, but you always have to question it and go, “What is that prejudice? Is that bullshit? Is it right? Is it wrong?” And always looking at yourself, it's always doing that what you call self-awareness stuff, and always be expanding it, changing it, and moving it. But prejudice? Prejudice has a place to protect, speaking as someone who's had guns in her face, knives through her throat, and various other yucky things, I know that when I told myself, “Oh, you're being prejudiced, push yourself out into that vulnerable feeling,” things didn't go very well. So instead, recognize “Okay, what are you thinking in this moment about this situation? Okay, how can you proceed and keep an open mind while being self-protective?” DAMIEN: Yeah, it sounds like you're talking about Daniel Kahneman's System 1 and System 2 Thinking. We have these instinctive reactions to things and a lot of them are learned—I think they're all learned actually. But they're instinctive and they're not things we decide consciously. They're there to protect us because they're way faster, way more efficient than most of what we are as humans as thinking and enacting beings. But then we also have our rational mind where we can use to examine those things and so, it's important to utilize both. It's also important to know where your instinctive responses are harmful and how to modify them so that they're not harmful. And that is the word. JENNIFER: I've never heard of it. Thanks for putting that in there. Power accretion principles is that it? CASEY: Oh, that's something else. JENNIFER: Oh. CASEY: Type 1 and type 2 thinking. JENNIFER: But I know with a lot of my therapy work as a trauma survivor, I have to evaluate a lot of what I think and how I react to things to change them to respond things. But there are parts of having CPTSD that I am not going to be able to do that, too. Like they're things where for example, in that old workplace where there was just this constant invalidation and dismissal of the work, which was very triggering as a rape survivor/incest survivor, that I feel really bad and it made me feel really unsafe all the time. So I felt very emotional in the moment and so, I'd have to breathe through my nose, breathe out to my mouth, feel my tummy, made sure I can feel myself breathing deeply, and try to calmly explain the dire consequences of some of these decisions. People tend to think that the design and development decisions we make when we're building for the web, it's no big deal if you screw it up. It's not like an architect making a mistake in a building and the building falls down. But when you make a mistake, that means a medical locator application doesn't load for an entire minute on a slow 3G connection—when your audience is people who are financially challenged and therefore, unlikely to have always high-speed, or new devices—you are making a design decision that is literally killing people. When you make a design decision, or development decision not to QA your work on mobile, tablet, and desktop, and somebody else has to find out that your Contact Us options don't open on mobile so people in crisis can't reach your crisis line. People are dying. I'm not exaggerating. I have a talk I give called You're Killing Your Users and it got rejected from this conference and one of the reviewers wrote, “The title is sensationalism. No one dies from our decision,” and I was just like, “Oh my God, oh my God.” MANDO: [laughs] Like, that's the point. JENNIFER: What a privileged life you live. What a wonderfully privileged life! There's a difference between actions and thoughts and it's okay for me to think, “I really hope you fall a flight of stairs and wind up with a disability and leave the things that you're now trying to put kibosh on.” But that's not me saying, “I'm going to go push you down a flight of stairs,” or that I really do wish that on someone. It's emotional venting, like how could you possibly close yourself off to even listening to this stuff? That's the thing that like, how do we get to a point in tech where so many people in tech act like the bad stereotype of surgeons who have this God complex, that there are particular entities working in government tech right now that are told, “You're going to save government from itself. You've got the answers. You are the ones that are going to help government shift and make things better for the citizen, or the people that use it.” But the people that they hire don't know what they don't know and they keep doing really horrible things. Like, they don't follow the rules, they don't take the time to learn the rules and so, they put user personal identifying information, personal health information on the public server without realizing it that's a no-no and then it has to be wiped, but it can never really fully be wiped. And then they make decisions like, “Oh, well now we're only worried about the stuff that's public facing. We're not worried about the stuff that's internally facing.” Even though, the internally facing people are all some of the vulnerable people that we're serving. I'm neutralizing a lot of what I'm talking about. [chuckles] MANDO: Of course. [laughter] DAMIEN: Well, convinced me of the problems. It was an easy sell for me. Now, what do we do? JENNIFER: The first thing we do is we all give a fuck about other people. That's the big thing, right? Like, how do I convince you that you should care about people who aren't you? MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: I always think about the spectrum of caring. I don't have a good word for it, but there are active and passive supporters—and you can be vocal, or quiet—like loud, or quiet. I want more people to be going around the circle of it so if they're vocally opposed, just be quiet, quietly opposed, maybe be quietly in support, and if you're quietly in support, maybe speak up about it. I want to nudge people along around this, the four quadrants. A lot of people only focus on getting people who passively care to be more vocal about it. That's a big one. That's a big transition. But I also like to focus on the other two transitions; getting a lot of people to be quiet about a thing that as opposed. Anyway, everywhere along that process is useful. JENNIFER: I think it's important to hear the people who were opposed because otherwise, how are we ever going to help understand and how are we going to understand if maybe where we've got a big blind spot? Like, we have to talk about this stuff in a way that's thoughtful. I come from a place in tech where in the late 90s, I was like, “I want to move from doing print to onscreen and printing environmental to that because it looks like a lot of stuff has gone to this web thing.” I picked up Jeffrey Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards and Dan Cederholm's Bulletproof Web Design and all of them talk about using web standards and web standards means that you prioritize accessibility from the beginning. So the first thing you build is just HTML tagging your content and everyone can use it. It's not going to be fancy, but it's going to be completely usable. And then you layer things on through progressive enhancement to improve the experience for people with fancy phones, or whatever. I don't know why, but that's not how everybody's coming into doing digital work. They're coming in through React out of the box, thinking that React out of the box is – and it's like nope, you have to build in the framework because nobody put the framework in React. React is just a bunch of hinges and loops, but you have to put the quality wood in and the quality glass panes and the handles that everybody can use. I'm not sure if that analogy is even going to work. But one of the things I realized talking with colleagues today is I tend to jump to three steps in when I really need to go back, start at the beginning, and say, “Here are the terms. This is what section 508 is. This is what accessibility is. This is what A11Y is. This is WCAG, this is how it's pronounced, this is what it means, and this is the history of it.” I think understanding history of section 508 and what WCAG is also vital in the first version of WCAG section 508, it adopted part of what was WCAG 1.0, but it wasn't like a one to one for 1.0, it was just some of it and then it updated in 2017, or 2018, I forget. Without my cheat sheet, I can't remember this stuff. Like I got other things to keep in my brain. CASEY: I just pulled up my favorite cheat sheet and I put it in the chat sidebar here. JENNIFER: Oh, thank you. It's in my slides for Ohana for Digital Service Design that I gave at WX Summit and I think I also gave it recently in another thing. Oh, UXPA DC. But the thing is, the changes only recently happened where it went to WCAG 2.0 was 2018, I think it got updated. So all those people that were resisting me in 2018, 2019, 2020 likely never realized that there was a refresh that they need to pay attention to and I kept trying to like say, “No, you don't understand, section 508 means more now.” Technically, the access board that defines what section 508 is talking about moving it to 2.1, or 2.2 and those include these things. So we should get ahead of the ball, ahead of the curve, or whatever you want to call it and we should be doing 2.1 and 2.2 and even beyond thinking about compliance and that sort of stuff. The reason we want to do human beings is that 2.1 and 2.2 are for people who are cognitively fatigued and I don't think there's anyone who's been through the pandemic who is not cognitively fatigued. If you are, you are just a robot. I don't know. I don't know who could not be not cognitive fatigue. And then the other people that also helps are mobile users. So if you look at any site, look at their usage stats, everything moving up and up and up in mobile devices. There's some people who don't have computers that they only have phones. So it just seems silly not to be supporting those folks. But we need, I don't know. I need to think more about how to get there, how to be more effective in helping people care, how to be more effective in teaching people. One of the big pieces I've learned in the last six months is the first step is self-care—sleep, exercise, eat, or maybe those two need to be back and forth. I haven't decided yet because I'm still trying to get the sleep workout. Before I moved to D.C., I was a runner, hiker, I had a sit spot at the local pond where I would hang out with the fishes and the turtles and the frogs and the birds and here, I overlook the Pentagon and there's swarms of helicopters. I grow lots of green things to put between me and it, but it's hard. The running is stuck because I don't feel safe and things like that. I live in an antiseptic neighborhood intentionally because I knew every time I went into D.C. and I saw what I see, I lose hope because I can't not care. It kills me that I have to walk by people who clearly need – this is a messed up world. We talk about the developing world as the place where people are dying on the side of the road. Do you have blinders on like, it's happening here? I don't know what to do. I care too much. So what do we do? What do you think? DAMIEN: Well, I think you have a hint. You've worked at places that are really resistant to accessibility and accessibility to improvements, and you've worked at some that are very welcoming and eager to implement them. So what were the differences? What do you think was the source of that dichotomy? JENNIFER: I think at the place I worked after I left the hellhole; the product owner was an Asian woman and the other designer was from India. Whereas, before the other place was a white woman and a white man and another white man who was in charge. And then the place I work now, it's a lot of people who are very neurodiverse. I work at MITRE, which is an FFRDC, which is a Federally Funded Research and Development Center. It's full of lots of smart people who are very bookish. It's funny when I was a little kid, I was in the gifted and talented kids and so, they would put us into these class sessions where we were to brainstorm and I love brainstorming. I love imagining things. I remember thinking, “I want to work in a think tank and just all I do all the time is brainstorm and we'd figure out a way to use some of those things!” And I feel a little bit like I'm there now, which is cool and they treat one another really well at MITRE, which is nice. Not to say it's perfect there. Nowhere is perfect. But compared to a lot of places, it's better. I think it's the people are taking the time to listen, taking the time to ask questions. The people I work with don't have a lot of ego, generally. At least not the ones I'm working with. I hear that they do exist there, but I haven't run into many of them. Whereas, the other place, there was a lot of virtue signaling and a lot of savior complex. Actually, very little savior conflicts. They didn't really care about saving anyone, sorry. Snark! [laughs] DAMIEN: Can you tell us a little more about ego and how ego plays into these things? JENNIFER: How do you think ego plays into these things? DAMIEN: Well, I think it causes people to one up and turn questions around it on me, that's one way. Ego means a lot of things to a lot of different people, which is why I asked the question. I think it was introduced to English by Freud and I don't want to use a Freudian theory for anything ever. [laughter] And then when I talk to people about death of the ego and [inaudible] and all of these things, it seems really unpleasant. People like their self-identity, people like being themselves, and they don't want to stop being themselves. So I'm not sure how that's related to what you were saying. CASEY: The way I'm hearing you use ego here sounds like self-centered, thinking about your own perspective, not taking the time and effort and energy to think about other people's perspectives. And if you don't have a diverse set of experiences to lean on your own, you're missing out on a lot. JENNIFER: Yeah. I tend to think about, I guess, it's my dysfunction. Once again, it's like, how do my actions impact others? Why are other people thinking about how their actions impact others? When you're out in public and you've got to cut the cheese, are you going to do it when there are a lot of people around? Are you going to take a stinky deuce in a public bathroom that you know other people in there? If you think about the community around you, you would go find a private one if you cared at all. But most people don't care and they think, “I do what I got to do.” I just think we need to think a little bit more about the consequences of our actions and I tweeted yesterday, or this morning about how – oh, it was yesterday. I was watching TV and a new, one of those food delivery commercials came on. This one, they send you a stove, you get a little oven, and you cook all of their meals in this little throwaway dishes. So you have no dishes, nothing. How much are we going to just keep creating crap? When you think about all of this takeout and delivery, there's just so much trash we generate. We should be taxing the bleep out of companies that make these sorts of things like, Amazon should have the bleep taxed out of it because of all the cardboard and I'm just as guilty because I ordered the thing and the box of staples arrives in a box. It has a plastic bubble wrap all around it. Like it's just a box at $2.50 staples, but I couldn't be bothered to go – I don't know if they have them at Walgreens. Like for real, I don't know. We need to do better. We need to think about the consequences of these decisions and not just do it like, that's the thing that tech has been doing is let's make an MVP and see if it has wheels. Let's make a prototype, but do the thing. Okay, let's do the thing. Oh, it's got wheels. Oh, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing. Who cares about the consequences of all of it? Who cares? Your kids, your grandkids someday maybe will when the world is gone. We talk about climate change. We talk about 120-degree temperatures in Seattle and Portland, the ocean on fire, the beaches are eroding, like the ice cap—most of the Arctic is having a 100 and some odd degree temperature day. Like we are screwing it up and our legislation isn't keeping pace with the advances in technology that are just drawing things. Where are the people who care in the cycle and how are they interrupting the VCs who just want to like be the next big tech? Everybody wants to be the next Zuckerberg, or Jack, or Bezos, or Gates, or whatever, and nobody has to deal with the consequences of their actions and their consequences of those design and development decisions. That's where I think it's ego, it's self-centeredness, it's wanting to be famous, it's wanting to be rich instead of really, truly wanting to make the world a better place. I know my definition of better. We've got four different visions of what better is going to be and that's hard work. Maybe it is easier to just focus on getting famous and getting rich than it is on doing the hard work of taking four different visions of what good is and trying to find the way forward. DAMIEN: Making the world a better place. The world will be a better place when I'm rich and famous. But that also means – and that's the truth. [laughter] But what else you said was being empathetic and having a diverse – well, marginalized people in charge where you can see that that's why the impact that things are having on other people. It's not just about me being rich and famous, but it's also about things being better for other people, too. JENNIFER: Yeah. I don't necessarily mean marginalized people have to be in charge. DAMIEN: Right. I took that jump based on your description of the places you worked for. I should have specified that. I wasn't clear enough. JENNIFER: I do have to say that in general, when I've worked for people who aren't the status quo, more often than not, they bring a compassionate, empathetic approach. Not always. There have been some that are just clearly driven and power hungry, and I can't fault them either because it's got to take a lot to come up from wherever and fight through the dog-eat-dog world. But in the project work, there's the for, with and by. The general ways that we redesign and build things for people, then the next piece is we design and build things with the people that we're serving, but the newer way of doing things is that we don't design and build the things, the people that we're serving design the things and tell us what they want to design, and then we figure out how to make sure that it's built the way they tell us to. That goes against the Steve Jobs approach where Steve Jobs said people don't know what they want sort of thing. Wasn't that was he said? DAMIEN: Yeah. Well, there was Henry Ford who said, “If you ask people what they wanted, they would've said faster horses.” JENNIFER: Right. D And Steve Jobs kind of did the same thing. JENNIFER: Right. And we, as designers, have to be able to work with that and pull that out and suss it out and make sure that we translate it into something useful and then iterate with to make sure that we get it. Like when I do research, listening sessions with folks, I have to use my experience doing this work to know what are the – like, Indi Young's inner thinking, reactions, and guiding principles. Those are the things that will help guide you on what people are really wanting and needing and what their purpose is. So you make sure that whatever your understanding is closer to what they're really saying, because they don't know what can be built. They don't know what goes on, but they do know what their purpose is and what they need. Maybe they don't even know what they need, but they do know what their purpose is, or you keep validating things. CASEY: I want to amplify, you said Indi Young. I read a lot of her work and she just says so many things that I wish someone would say, and she's been saying them for a while. I just didn't know about her. Indi Young. JENNIFER: It's I-N-D-I and Y-O-U-N-G. I am so grateful that I got to take her courses. I paid for them all myself, except for one class—I let that other place pay for one through my continuing ed, but I wanted to do it so badly that I paid for all myself. The same thing with all the Creative Reaction Lab and HmntyCntrd stuff; I paid for those out of my own money that probably could have gone to a vacation, [chuckles] or buying a car, or something. But contributing to our society in a responsible and productive way, figuring out how to get my language framework better. Like you said earlier, Damien, I'm really good at pointing out what the problems are. I worry about figuring out how we solve them, because I don't really have the ego to think that I know what the answer is, but I'm very interested in working with others to figure out how we solve them. I have some ideas, but how do you tell a React developer that you really have to learn HTML, you have to learn schematic HTML. That's like learning the alphabet. I don't understand. CASEY: Well, I have some ideas around that. Amber is my go-to framework and they have accessibility baked into the introduction tutorial series. They have like 13 condoned add-ons that do accessibility related things. At the conference, there's always a whole bunch of accessibility tracks. Amber is like happy path accessibility right front and center. React probably has things like that. We could have React's onboarding docs grow in that direction, that would be great, and have more React add-ons to do that that are condoned and supported by the community could have the same path. And it could probably even use a lot of the same core code even. The same principles apply. JENNIFER: If you want to work together and come up with some stuff to go to React conferences, or work with the React team, or whatever. 
CASEY: Sounds fun. DAMIEN: Well, one of the things you talked about the way you described it and made it sound like empathy was so much of the core of it. In order to care about accessibility, you have to empathize with people who need that functionality. You have to empathize with people who are on 3G flip phones. That's not a thing, is it? [laughs] But nonetheless, empathizing. JENNIFER: A flat screen phone, a smartphone looking thing and it's still – if anyone's on a slow 3G, it's still going to be a miserable experience. DAMIEN: Yeah, 3G with a 5-year-old Android OS. JENNIFER: But I don't think it's necessarily that people have to empathize. In an ideal world would, but maybe they could be motivated by other things like fast. Like, do you want to fast cumulative layout shift? Do you want like a great core vitals Google score? Do you want a great Google Lighthouse score? Do you want the clear Axe DevTools scan? Like when I get a 100% little person zooming in a wheelchair screen instead of issues found. Especially if I do it the first time and like, I hadn't been scanning all along and I just go to check it for the first time and it's clean, I'm like, “Yes!” [laughs] CASEY: Automation helps a lot. JENNIFER: Yeah. CASEY: When I worked at USCIS, I don't know what this meant, but they said we cannot automate these tests. I think we can and they didn't do it yet, but I've always been of baffled. I think half of it, you can automate tests around and we had none at the time. JENNIFER: Yeah, you catch 30 to 50% of the accessibility issues via the Axe rule set and JSX Alley and all that. You can catch 30 to 50. CASEY: Sounds great. JENNIFER: That's still better than catching none of them. Still not great, but it's still better than nothing. They're not here to tell us why they can't, but adding things into your end-to-end test shouldn't be that hard if you know how to write tests. I don't personally know how to write tests. I want to. I don't know. Like, I have to choose which thing am I going to work on? I'm working on an acquisition project, defining the requirements and the scope and the red tape of what a contract will be and it's such foreign territory for me. There's a lot of pieces there that I never ever thought I would be dealing with and my head hurts all the time. I feel stupid all the time, but that's okay. If you're not doing something you haven't done before, maybe you're not learning, it's growing. I'm growing. I'm definitely growing, but in different ways and I miss the code thing of I have a to-do list where I really want to get good at Docker, now I want to learn few, things like that and I want to get back to learning Python because Python, I think is super cool. CASEY: There's one thing I wanted to mention earlier that I just remembered. One thing that was eye-opening to me for accessibility concerns is when I heard that screen reader has existed, which was several years into my programming career. I didn't know they were a thing at all. I think it's more common now that people know about them today than 10, 15 years ago. But I still haven't seen someone use a screen reader and that would be really important for me as a developer. I'm not developing software lately either so I'm not really coding that. But if anyone hasn't, you should use a screen reader on your computer if you're developing software that might have to be used by one. JENNIFER: So everyone on a Mac has voiceover. Everyone on an iPhone has voiceover. It's really hard on the iPhone, I feel like I can't, oh, it's really hard. I've heard great things about Talkback on Android. And then on Windows, newer versions have Microsoft Narrator, which is a built-in screen reader. You can also download NVDA for free and install it. It depends on how much money you want to spend. There a bunch of different ways to get Jaws, do Jaws, too. Chrome has Chromebox so you can get another screen reader that way. CASEY: So many options. It's kind of overwhelming. If I had to recommend one for a Windows user and one for a Mac user, would you recommend the built-in ones just to start with, to play with something? JENNIFER: So everywhere I've tested, whether it was at the financial institution, or the insurance place, or the government place, we always had to test with Jaws, NVDA, and voiceover. I test with voiceover because it's what I have on my machine, because I'm usually working on a Mac. But the way I look at the screen reader is the number of people who are using screen readers is significantly fewer than the number of people with cognitive considerations. So I try to use good semantic markup, basic web standards so that things will work; things have always been pretty great in screen readers because of that. I try to keep my code from being too complicated, or my UI is from being complicated, which might do some visual designers seem somewhat boring to some of them. [chuckles] CASEY: Do you ever turn off CSS for the test? JENNIFER: Yes, and if it makes sense that way, then I know I'm doing it right and is it still usable without JavaScript. Better yet, Heydon Pickering's way of like, it's not usable unless you turn off the JavaScript, that was fabulous. I pissed off so many people. But to me, I try to focus on other things like how clear is, how clean is it? Can I tab through the whole UI? Can I operate it with just a keyboard? Your keyboard is your best assistive tech tester. You don't skip. If you can tap through anything without getting stuck, excellent. If you don't skip over nav items. CASEY: My biggest pet peeve is when websites don't work when you zoom in, because all of my devices I zoom in not because my vision is bad, but because for my posture. I want to be able to see my screen from a far distance and not lean in and craning my neck over laptop and my phone, both and a lot of websites break. JENNIFER: Yeah. CASEY: You zoom in the text at all, you can't read anything. JENNIFER: Yeah. At the one place I worked before, we required two steps of zoom in and two steps of zoom out, and it still had to be functional. I don't see that in most places; they don't bother to say things like that. CASEY: Yeah. JENNIFER: At the government, too – CASEY: I wonder how common it is if people do that. I do it so I think it's very common, but I don't know the right. [laughter] JENNIFER: But that's how the world is, right? I can tell you that once you hit this old age and your eyes start to turn against you and things are too small, or too light, you suddenly understand the importance of all of these things so much more. So for all of those designers doing your thin gray text on white backgrounds, or thin gray text on gray backgrounds, or your tiny little 12 and under pixels for your legaleas, karma is out to get you. [chuckles] We've all done it. Like there was a time I thought nobody cared about the legaleas. That's not true. Even your footer on your website should be big enough for people to read. Otherwise, they think I'm signing away my soul to zoom because I can't read it. If you can zoom it in, that's great. But some apps disable the zoom. DAMIEN: So we usually end on a series of reflections. How do you feel about moving to that? JENNIFER Sure! DAMIEN: We let our guests go last. Casey, do you have a reflection you want to share with us? CASEY: I'm thinking back to Mando's dog and I thought it was interesting, Jennifer, that you linked your experiences with the dog's experiences. Like, some of the symptoms you have might be similar if a dog has CPTSD, too and I think that's really insightful. I think a lot of animals have that kind of set up, but we don't treat them like we treat humans with those issues even if they're similar. DAMIEN: It was in your bio, equitable design initiatives, I really want it to dig into that because that fascinates me and I guess, if draws that bridge between things that I think are very important, or very important for me, both accessibility, that sort of work, especially in software design, because that's where I'm at. And then destroying the tenants of white supremacy and being able to connect those as things that work together and seeing how they work together. Yeah, that's what I'm going to be reflecting on. JENNIFER: Yeah. Whenever we're doing our work, looking for opportunities to surface and put it out for everyone to look at who has power, if this changes who has power, if this doesn't change who has power, what is motivating the players, are people motivated by making sure that no one's excluded, or are people motivated by making sure that their career moves forward, or they don't get in trouble rather than truly serving? I still am in the mindset of serving the people with a purpose that we're aiming to meet the needs of kind of thing. I still have that mindset. A lot of the prep work, we're still talking about the people we aim to serve and it's still about getting them into the cycle. That is a very big position of power that a designer has and acknowledging that that's power and that I wield that power in a way that I consider responsible, which is to make sure that we are including people who are historically underrepresented, especially in those discussions. I'm really proud of a remote design challenge where all of our research participants were either people of color, or people with disabilities. Man, the findings insights were so juicy. There was so much that we could do with what we got. It was really awesome. So by equitable design initiatives, it's really just thinking about acknowledging the power that we have and trying to make sure we do what we can to share it, transfer it, being really respectful of other perspectives. I've always thought of it as infinite curiosity about others and some people have accused me being nosy and they didn't realize it's not about getting up in their private business. It's just, I want to be gracious and respect others. What I will reflect on was how I really need to rest. I will continue to reflect on how I rest is key. I'm making a conscious decision for the next couple of months to not volunteer because I tend to do too much, as Casey may, or may not know. [chuckles] Yeah, I want to wake up in the morning and feel energized and ready to take full advantage of, which is not the right way to phrase it, but show up as my best self and well-prepared for the work. Especially since I now have found myself a new incredibly compassionate, smart place that genuinely aims to improve equity and social justice, and do things for the environment and how grateful I am. I totally thought this place was just about let's them all and it's so not. [laughs] So there's so many wonderful people. I highly recommend everybody come work with me if you care about things. DAMIEN: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer for being our guest today. It's been a pleasure. The author's affiliation with The MITRE Corporation is provided for identification purposes only, and is not intended to convey or imply MITRE's concurrence with, or support for, thepositions, opinions, or viewpoints expressed by the author. ©2021 The MITRE Corporation. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Approved for public release. Distribution unlimited 21-2206. Special Guest: Jennifer Strickland.

Today we are talking with Preston So about Voice Content and Usability in Drupal, as well as his book from A Book Apart Voice Content and Usability. www.talkingdrupal.com/304 Topics AmyJune Word Camp Santa Clarita John Elisha Otis 1853 Elevator pitch Nic Trumpet Vine (again) Preston Decoupled Days and just finished Gatsby: The Definitive Guide Voice Content and it's impact on usability First interest in the topic Learn about accessibility beyond content layout Designing a voice interface Voice system learning WCAG 3.0 Web Content Accessibility Guidelines success criteria Lessons from Voice content Bad voice content and it's impact How it applies to Drupal Preston's new book Resources https://abookapart.com/products/voice-content-and-usability https://georgia.gov/ Ask Georgia Gov https://georgia.gov/chat Guests Preston So - https://preston.so/ @prestonso Hosts Nic Laflin - www.nLighteneddevelopment.com @nicxvan John Picozzi - www.epam.com @johnpicozzi AmyJune Hineline - @volkswagenchick

If you're like me, you use the web every day. And you do so just about as easily as you breathe. Reading websites and accessing media is effortless. But imagine if it wasn't. Imagine if you suddenly couldn't read the text on your favourite news website. Or if the layout of that online store you were shopping became so confusing that it was impossible to make sense of it. Or if you just couldn't even type your search term into Google. That's what using the web can be like for people that are differently-abled. The web has generally been a pretty unwelcoming place if you are visually impaired especially. The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are an international standard that's trying to change that. It aims to help web site owners adapt their content to be accessible for as many people as possible. And this summer, version 2.2 of the guidelines will become the official standard. That will mean that some laws that require accessibility will also be updated. Here to tell me more about this is Mike Cart, vice president of Siteimprove Canada.

On this episode, Detroit Labs team members Derek Quinn, Katrina Ohlemacher, and Kitty Garrison join Dan and Tobi to discuss accessibility in software, its importance in a “complete” software product, and best practices for planning and implementing digital products that are accessible to all users. OUTLINE: Introductions What is accessibility as it relates to software? Why would we want to make our apps/websites accessible? Who are software accessibility features for? Governing laws around software accessibility What types of tools are out there to help build accessible products? Live example of what an app looks like without built-in accessibility features Google and Apple accessibility frameworks Accessible software design naturally leads to a good user experience Accessible software design is a mindset, not a checklist What makes you passionate about software accessibility? Software accessibility training at Detroit Labs It’s never too late to begin implementing software accessibility features Closing remarks RESOURCES:

Accessibility is an important of often overlooked aspect of web development. While some view it as an added expense, many don’t even know they’re doing anything wrong. Well today’s guest, Amber Hinds, aims to change that by making accessibility less daunting through her agency and their new plugin, Accessibility Checker. (more…) View on separate page Transcript NOTE: Around 4:30, Amber said Section 508 of the Telecommunications Act. She has relayed to me it should have been Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. SPEAKERS Amber Hinds, Joe Casabona Transcript Joe Casabona00:00 This episode is brought to you by outgrow. Are you looking to grow your online business with a tool that’s used by Salesforce, Nike, and Adobe, but also accessible to freelancers and entrepreneurs like us. outgrows powerful software allows any marketer to build a wide range of personalized engaging tools, such as calculators, graters, assessments, and quizzes. Without any technical or design experience. These interactive content pieces have been continuously out shining standard marketing techniques with over 38% conversion rates outgrow makes it easy for you to engage with your audience, assess their knowledge, recommend specific plans and products while improving your conversion rate. I personally love the vast number of tools they have available. And I’m currently using outgrow to build a chatbot. I’ve always been genuinely interested in adding one of these to my sites. But I’ve never pulled the trigger. outgrow is helping me do that. And they can help you too. You can sign up for outgrow@outgrow.co slash Joe. That’s outgrow.co slash j o e to get a special 30 day free trial. No strings attached. Try out grow today to boost your business. Thanks so much to outgrow for supporting the show. Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of how I built it the podcast that asks, How did you build that? Today? We are on episode 204. I’m going to redo that. Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of how I built it the podcast that asks, How did you build that? It is Episode 204. Our sponsors are outgrow restrict content, pro and text expander. You’ll hear about them later. But first, of course, I want to bring in a very special guest. Her name is Amber Hines. She is the founder and CEO of equalize digital. And we are going to be talking all about accessibility today. I’m super excited. Amber, how are you? Amber Hinds02:12 I’m doing great. Thanks. Joe Casabona02:14 Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for reaching out. I’m excited I as I was starting to do outreach for this season, I got an email from you. And I thought, well, this is going to be perfect because I am a web developer of 20 plus years at this point. And I’ve had a couple of accessibility related topics on this show, which is in its fifth year or fourth year maybe. But I’ve never we’ve never explicitly talked about web accessibility. So I’m really excited you reached out. Before we get into a whole host of topics, we’re going to touch on it, why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Sure. Amber Hinds02:53 So as you mentioned, I’m the founder and CEO of equalize digital, which is a website accessibility consulting company. We do accessibility audits and remediation and accessible website and application development for largely, I’d say, large enterprises, government agencies, colleges and universities, k 12, schools and some nonprofits. And I actually got into it I, our main agency that is a parent company for equalises, called rotary creative. And we’ve been running that for about five years. And we started doing several years ago work in with Colorado State University. And everything we launched for them has to be accessible, it has to meet with CAG or w CAG. However you want to pronounce that 2.1 double A standards. And so we got into that. And this year, actually, we did a big shift where we did the rebrand with equalize and pulled our accessibility work out into its own organization from the marketing agency. Joe Casabona04:06 That’s That’s fantastic. So it sounds like you You work mostly with large organizations, plus some nonprofits. I suspect those are organizations that need to I mean, every every website technically needs to be accessible, right? But these are the organizations that will more likely be targeted. If they are not accessible, is that right? Amber Hinds04:32 Well, you know, what’s really interesting about that is that I think we work with a lot of larger organizations or government agencies or universities because they know that they have to be accessible. And anything that is federally funded under Section 508 of the Telecommunications Act is required to have an accessible website and meet WIC ag standards. But that not actually who’s really getting sued. So you asked like, these are the people that are required to be accessible there might be targeted, but it’s not actually the case because they know they’re supposed to be accessible. And they typically do a relatively good job of meeting those standards with anything new that’s launched this year, I think there were me Look at my notes. There were 3550 ada, or in California under the Unruh Civil Rights Act, lawsuits, so about 10 per business day. And the businesses that were most targeted, were 70, almost 78% of them were retail businesses. Ecommerce is huge, especially with COVID and everyone shopping online now. And then the second biggest is food service. And these aren’t just necessarily like chain restaurants. Certainly there are chain restaurants that have been targeted or chain e commerce stores that have received lawsuits. But there’s also mom and pop restaurants and one off e commerce businesses as well. Joe Casabona06:12 That’s, that’s really interesting, right? Because as, as you mentioned, we’re talking about the year 2020. And a lot of on a lot of retail businesses and food service businesses in March, right, because we’re based in the US, you’re also based in the US, is that correct? Yeah. That’s when the lockdowns really started to happen here. And a lot of businesses rushed to get something anything online, and so they probably were already out of their depth. They didn’t know what the best thing they needed was. And then they probably had no idea how to make a website accessible, or what they needed to do to make a website accessible. Amber Hinds06:50 Or they might not have even known that it was a thing, right now, unfortunately, a lot of us, we just think, well, I use a mouse, or I use my phone and I can see how things work. And so online ordering for delivery, or takeout or buying something online to be shipped to my house, I just think about, well, this is how I would do it, it works for me, this is great. And you don’t necessarily always realize there are people that maybe can’t see the screen people who can’t use a mouse, or they even an older person with our arthritis. If your touch points on your mobile device are too small, it’s hard for them to get the right tap target. So Joe Casabona07:29 yeah, that’s that’s absolutely right. And I would think and, and after this, we’ll get into, like defining everything that we just talked about. I would think that Platt So first of all, I haven’t done the research on this, but I would imagine that many online retail retailers look to something like Shopify, to get their website online, or I’m sure there’s a similar niche product for for online restaurants. I would expect them to enable their websites to be accessible. But is that maybe that’s a misconception on my part? Or maybe it’s a moving target? So it’s hard? Yeah, I Amber Hinds08:09 mean, I think the thing that’s interesting about accessibility is a lot of it has to do a theme. So Shopify, just like WordPress, you choose a theme. And Shopify, you don’t just have to choose a theme that’s in their theme directory, you can also have someone custom develop it. So again, if they went to a local developer, and said, build me a Shopify site, or a designer who knows who’s like a Shopify power user, just like their WooCommerce power users, right, that build sites for people, if they don’t know that they could have not chosen a theme, or they could have built a theme that didn’t have accessibility in sort of the theme functionality. But then there’s this other piece of accessibility, which is how you enter the content into your website. One of our testers, we work with blind and visually impaired people, we hire them to test websites for us. And one of them actually had a really great example that he shared with a client about image alt tags, for example. And he was talking about how he went on a website to order a pizza, and we want to describe what it is. And he’s using a screen reader, he is completely blind. And he got to where he could set all the things and then the toppings were images, and there wasn’t an alt tag to describe. Well, this one is pepperoni. This one is onions, this one’s green peppers, whatever that might be. So he had to, he’s like, I can either order a cheese pizza, or I could pick random toppings and be surprised. But But no, he’s like, I had to stop because I could not I literally could not order that product online. And that’s not necessarily something that’s in the code. That’s probably something that a content manager or a marketing manager or Someone who doesn’t touch code at all entered in and forgot to fill in the alt text box. Joe Casabona10:09 Yeah. And that’s so that’s really interesting, right? Because that’s also something that’s easy for. I mean, it’s easy for me to forget, right? I’m just kind of dropping images in my blog post. And maybe the images aren’t integral to the content. They’re just there as like a additional sidebar or whatever. Yeah, right, a supplement. Right. And so sometimes I’ll forget as well, I try to be mindful. But if I’m doing something fast, obviously, it might not be on my checklist. So let’s so and I will circle back to this, because I do want to know, do all images need all tags? Or like the important ones? Or how, what’s a good way to write an alt tag? Right? Because like, just image of me is probably not a good one. But like, Man with beard and hat is a lot better or whatever. So, but first, we’ve thrown around a few terms that I think probably need to be defined. You mentioned with CAG, I will say, your your way, I was always saying to W CAG. But what CAG is probably more, right, because you’re saying you’re pronouncing all the letters instead of like singling one out whatever. And I know Amber Hinds11:19 both ways. Yeah. It’s more comfortable for me that way. Yeah. Somebody else is gonna listen to this podcast and say, Oh, my gosh, this is horrible. Why like that? Joe Casabona11:29 Well, if there is if there is somebody who knows the official official pronunciation, you can let me know where and how I built it. So, so you mentioned WIC Ag and then you mentioned that all of these websites that you’re working with primarily need to be 2.1, double A or A? A rating of that. So what is the CAG? And what are the ratings just like a high level overview? Amber Hinds12:00 Sure. So okay, it stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, they are internationally agreed upon standards that are developed by committee and volunteers, anyone can volunteer and contribute to them. And there have been different versions. So 2.1, was released a couple of years ago. And actually, I should clarify, a lot of our clients, we do 2.1, because that is the current standard. But if you’re a government agency, section 508 specifies 2.0. So anything that is, that is a further version is also backwards. So it covers all of that. So 2.1 is better than 2.0. But legally, they’re only required to meet 2.0 2.2 was supposed to come out in November, but because of COVID, and some things that got delayed, and it’s expected about mid year next year. And then a major version change to the guidelines is 3.0, which has sort of a code name of silver. So sort of like in WordPress, we named WordPress versions, after chest singers. There’s a code name for a web content accessibility guideline versions. And 3.0 is, I believe, expected in 2022. There is if you listen to or you go on YouTube, you can see the WordPress accessibility day talks. And I moderated a talk with Sherry burn haber, who is on the silver committee. And she talked a lot about what is coming in that and it’s a really excellent talk for anybody who wants to be forward looking. So there’s different versions that are basically released sets of guidelines. Within those versions, there are what’s called success criteria. So they are numbered items that a website can be tested against, in order to determine if it is if it is accessible. And these success criteria have three different levels. A is the absolute most basic, which is something like if it’s a pre recorded video, it should have captions so that someone who can’t hear the video can understand what’s being said. And then double A is sort of the middle and triple A is the highest and most accessible. It can be very challenging to make an entire website triple A compliant, most people consider double A the standard. And then there might be certain situations when you try to meet the triple A guidelines. Gotcha. Joe Casabona14:47 Gotcha. Yeah. So A is the most basic you actually mentioned, captions in video, which makes me think about what kind of added expense Making a website accessible is right now people will look at that as a, this is a cost I don’t need. But I would argue that is it’s definitely a cost you do need, right. My podcast has had transcripts since season three. And it’s it’s certainly an added cost. But there have been, first of all, it makes my podcast accessible for people who can’t listen. But there have also been benefits to it, you know, my my website ranks higher, the content is more searchable. I definitely saw an increase in traffic after my transcripts got added to the website so Amber Hinds15:39 that that’s something on NPR, they actually did a scientific study on that a couple years ago with a couple of their podcasts where they were testing whether they should have full transcripts or just the little blurb summary. And they determined that it significantly helped just like you were saying their search engine ranking time on site engagement, like people were now going to multiple pages, whereas they would just go to one episode and bounce. So it has a lot of benefits besides making it available to people who can’t hear. It could also help people in situations where maybe they they are a hearing person, but they’re, you know, laying in bed trying to pat their kid to sleep right but, but if you want to look at something on their phone, you know or they’re sitting on a train and they forgot their headset, and they don’t want to bother everybody but they still want to engage with the content. Joe Casabona16:42 This episode is brought to you by restrict content Pro. If you need a fast, easy way to set up a membership site for yourself or your clients. Look no further than the restrict content pro WordPress plugin. easily create premium content for members using your favorite payment gateway. Manage members send member only emails and more. You can create any number of subscription packages, including free trials, and even free tiers. But that’s not all. Their extensive add ons library allows you to do even more like drip out content, connect with any number of CRMs and newsletter tools, including my favorite ConvertKit. And you can integrate with other WordPress plugins like BB press. When the build something club comes out later this month, you can bet it’s going to be using restrict content Pro. I’m a big fan of the team. I’m a big fan of the tool. And I know they do fantastic work over there. If you want to learn more about restrict content pro and start making money with your own membership site today, head on over to how I built it slash RCP. That’s how I built it slash RCP To learn more, and get a special offer for listeners only. Thanks so much to restrict content pro for supporting the show. I’ve been in many situations where I’m looking looking for something to do actually, just yesterday, as we record this, I was looking for the best way to like oven bake baking. Because like I didn’t want to get my skillet out. And I asked my Amazon show echo show Hey, like how what’s the temperature or whatever. And they’re like, here’s a video and I’m like, I don’t want a video. I want a single sentence that tells me what to preheat the oven to. So Amber Hinds18:34 you know, I’ve watched 15 minutes. Yeah. Joe Casabona18:38 So but but there is there, there will be an additional cost for making a website accessible. How can How can people prepare for that in their budgets? as web developers? A lot of people who listen are web developers and small business owners? How can they integrate that into proposals and things like that? Amber Hinds19:04 Sure. Well, I think there’s two ways to approach that which is from the agency or the developer perspective. For us, when we were before we pulled it out and created equals digital, and we were just proposing projects under road where creative. We typically had accessibility as an option. Unless we knew that the client like we had already discussed it, they came to us but we were like this is an option we’re putting on every proposal. And for us, it I mean our codebase our starter theme, we use custom themes. It’s all accessible. But what we have found from an agency perspective is that there are sometimes more things if you have custom functionality. If you’re embedding like HTML camp elements, if anyone knows that is there special things that happen because those aren’t accessible to someone on a screen reader, it just says, like graphic, right? So there’s different code things that have to happen. So on that front, we frequently have to account for that in time. The other thing that we’ve found a lot as from an agency perspective, is that there’s a lot more training that has to go into it with clients. And when they you know, you give them here’s our content request, you fill it all in, then we have to spend time going through it, and saying, so some of the common problems that we see, and we have to educate people on one is ambiguous anchor links. So that’s when you have the text for your link. And it doesn’t make sense out of context. So a really obvious thing for that is like, click here. Mm hmm. People link that all the time. And if someone is on a screen reader, they don’t have the context, they just start going through links, they’re just going to click here. And they won’t know why would I click here? Where does it go. But even things like email, or website can be ambiguous. When it’s on a page, where like a directory page where you’re listing out, here’s five different people. And an email is the link to them, you actually need to have something so that a screener would read email for amber Hines. So I would know, this is the link to email and behance. So there’s a lot of those kinds of things where we have to go through their content that they provided us with, and, and, you know, either have conversations with them about it, or just make the change. And by adding screen reader text or whatever that might be on the development end. And then I feel like another thing is heading level, we noticed a lot. If people are, are coming to us with an existing website that needs work, you know, we need to do some training about you can’t just pick the heading level, because you like the way it looks. Right? They actually make sense in a numerical order. And there’s a reason for that. So I feel like from an agency perspective, you sort of have to figure out what are the top problems that you’re seeing are the top things and then account for that time, and we on every project would put it as an option. Because as much as we want every website to be 100% accessible, it’s just like, as much as I’d love to write all the content for every website, because I think it would make it really awesome. Sometimes clients don’t have the budget for that, or they really just want to do their own content. And, and it you know, and it may not be what you would do, but, um, so I think there’s that, from a, from a website receiver perspective, I think that you can’t afford to not make your website accessible. At least currently, with current laws, there is it’s sort of a roll of the dice, you have no idea if you’re going to get sued or not. Right. Certainly, the more high profile your website is, you know, if you run, let’s say, Google AdWords or paid social media ads, and you are driving traffic there, certainly that increases your likelihood, right? more visibility than if you’re just, I have a small brochure website, that’s four pages, I don’t really send people there and my traffic is like, you know, 100 people a month, right, the likelihood of getting sued is a lot lower. So that’s something that a business owner has to weigh. But if you think about if your attorney tells you $250 an hour, and you get a lawsuit, just responding to that is going to cost you 1000s of dollars, right. And I’ve seen some reports where they’re saying that most of the time you have to settle, because there’s no like, that’s just what you do. And just settling could cost you $300,000. Now, all of a sudden, you’re thinking, boy, putting an extra five into my website at the time that I build, it is probably worth it. It’s Joe Casabona24:13 it’s very similar to making your website secure, right? Like, I’ve had clients who I’ve tried to say, Hey, we should like spend a little extra money shoring up the security of your website, so you don’t get hacked. And then they get hacked. And then they spent four or five times that doing the recovery and then shoring up their website. I think that’s so interesting. Now, you, you mentioned that there’s no way of knowing if you’ll get sued. I’m wondering because I read this earlier in the year, but I don’t want I don’t want to use like scare tactics or say like this could happen. But I did read about a gentleman who is suing random businesses that he went to websites, and there was really nothing that those businesses could do about it right because the legal argument was sound. It’s not like you can’t sue because you’re not a customer. If you visit the website is not accessible, you’re liable for a lawsuit. Right? Amber Hinds25:04 Yeah. So there. And actually, the other thing to be aware of is that you don’t have to, you won’t necessarily get sued in the state where your business is based. Joe Casabona25:16 Mm hmm. Amber Hinds25:17 So if you are an e commerce business, especially if you mail products to people in California, or New York, which are the top states for lawsuits, you can be sued in New York, or California. There’s, there is, I think 70. So 70% of all cases are brought by 10 plaintiffs law firms. So there are law firms that specialize in this kind of lawsuit. There are definitely plaintiffs who Sue lots of websites, they call them kind of drive by Ada lawsuits, yeah, where they’re just finding every website that they can find. word of caution, some of those plugins that are out there, and I won’t name any, but they’re, they’re overlays that that say, add a line of JavaScript to your website, and we’ll make it accessible. They can be scanned for, and there are actually a number of websites, or sorry, a number of lawsuits that cite that the website is using that plugin, and it is failing to make it accessible multiple of those plugins, so it’s not just one. Wow. And they’re still getting sued. So so there is that which is the it’s not great. There is actually a bill right now that has been proposed in the house, which will stop someone’s ability to just sue a business without even contacting them Joe Casabona26:52 first. Because that was gonna be my next question. Right? Like, like if there’s a copyright infringement, like you’ll usually get a cease and desist first. Right. But there’s nothing like that right now for at a web for Ada lawsuits. Amber Hinds27:04 There is not and there’s no guidelines under the ADA about what accessible means. So people assume that it means following Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, what wicked but there’s no real proof to that or specific judicial guidelines saying that this is this is what it is. The there is a case against Domino’s that was pretty high profile that went to the Supreme Court last year. And the Supreme Court declined to hear it, they basically said that the lower court’s decision stood, which was against Domino’s. So that was considered a win for accessibility rights advocates. You know, and so it’s hard because there are people that are obviously abusing this to make money. Right, right. But there are also some very legitimate cases where someone really couldn’t do what they wanted. And if the lawsuit hadn’t happened, progress would not have been made. Joe Casabona28:01 Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, the lawsuit might be required to I mean, you know, laws like the now that ADA is a short for American Disability Act, right. Amber Hinds28:15 Americans with Disabilities Act, Joe Casabona28:16 the Americans with Disabilities Act. And so laws are really defined in the courts, right, as as many lawyers I listened to on podcast say, a law is meaningless unless a court decides on it, basically. So we mean, these lawsuits essentially, to define how they’re going to play out, and then how we as web developers need to act accordingly. Mm hmm. Well, I should state that at this point, I’m not a lawyer. Amber, are you a lawyer? Amber Hinds28:47 And whenever I do webinars, that is the first thing I say. Joe Casabona28:52 So we’re just kind of spitballing here, but there are so I mean, let’s talk about we talked about the scary part, I have like an irrational fear of getting sued. So we talked about the scary part. But let’s talk about the proactive things that we can do. To make websites accessible. We’ve kind of talked about the importance we’ve just defined with CAG. And the three ratings, I would say, aim for double A if you can, but at the very least do single A. at at the core, a good semantic HTML helps a lot with accessibility. Is that an accurate statement? Yes. Great. So if you are a a general website developer, if you’re like a WordPress theme developer, using proper HTML markup, using CSS when you’re supposed to use CSS, if you’re using like Java scripts to change the content, probably there’s a better way to do that, or there’s a way to make that accessible. Make sure you’re doing those things I would say at the very least right yeah. Amber Hinds29:59 Don’t Don’t add text with CSS. So before and after elements should not add text to the website, those kinds of things. That’s super interesting. Joe Casabona30:09 I would always use that for like to append author to, like, if I commented on one of my blog posts Amber Hinds30:20 mean that somebody on a screen reader might not know that you are the author commenting on your blog post. Right. Joe Casabona30:26 So that doesn’t show that’s super interesting. That doesn’t show up in the screen. Yeah, Amber Hinds30:31 you have to assume that somebody is looking at could be looking at the website with no styles. Joe Casabona30:36 Yeah, right. That’s Wow, that’s a great point. So before and after, you should use for like flourishes, like, maybe like a concert. Yeah, Amber Hinds30:45 record things. Not only that, yeah. Adds important information. I think if if you are a theme developer, though, codecs, which I don’t think it’s called the Codex anymore. This will show how old I Joe Casabona30:58 was like, half of it’s still the Codex, half of it is adalbert. Out WordPress. Amber Hinds31:03 Yeah. So there is a lot of information about if you wanted to build an accessibility ready theme, which is what we call them. Because, as I mentioned before, a lot of it has to do with how content is entered. So you can never say your theme is accessible. But there are some good guidelines there. For developers on what’s considered the minimum in order for a theme to be considered accessibility ready. There’s things like adding Quick Links, if somebody hits the tab key, which allows them to skip the navigation and go to the content or jump to the footer, or jump back up to the navigation pretty quickly, that it explains how to do those sorts of things. So that would be a great place to start, I think if you’re a developer, and you’re not sure. Another big thing to be aware of, is color contrast. And this applies a lot to designers. There are tons of free color content, color contrast checkers out there, wave has a one that’s really popular. And basically, the color in your foreground, if you have text has to have a certain luminance ratio, to whatever the background color is to make it readable for people with low vision. And again, remember, this applies to a lot of us as we age. So it’s, you might think, well, how many people are low vision, right? But if you start to think about older populations, it’s a lot of people. So you really have to think about what the contrast is between any text and the background, that it’s on whether it’s over an image, or it’s just over a solid color, or a gradient. Joe Casabona32:47 Yeah. And and if we’re talking specifically about WordPress here, you know, Gutenberg slash the block editor has added that into their blocks, which I think is really nice. I will learn to you. Yes, it does. And that’s been helpful for me, I, you know, I feel like, usually I can eyeball it, but sometimes I can’t. I will link to a few of the resources you mentioned, in my HTML and CSS, visual quickstart guide book, I have a whole chapter dedicated to accessibility. So I got to try out some of the color contrast stuff I had, I found a plugin that would essentially change. recreate your website for people with certain different color blindness, which, which I thought was so very eye opening to me. And also, I thought it was like, pretty interesting that they could do that. I took a photo of my daughter, and I changed, and I adjusted it. And so that pictures in the book, my daughter’s is in my book, which is cool. But um, there’s a lot of really good resources there to help. But, um, yes, so Amber Hinds33:55 can I say something about those kinds of plugins? Joe Casabona33:58 Yes, yes. So. Amber Hinds34:01 So there are, there’s probably like, maybe 15 plus plugins, on.org directory now that are different types of overlays, I think there are a lot less likely like what we talked about where they can be scanned for, like some of the mass market ones that can be used on any website. But the one thing to keep in mind, while those tools, the ones that are just like, it allows people to make text bigger, or it can change it, so it’s reverse. So it’s dark, rather than a light background. Or it can make it all black and white, or whatever that might be. Those are, I think, less problematic than something that says oh, I’m going to add alt text for you because how can I you know, really do a good job of that. But that said, like, a lot of those tools I think made people think that they’re making their website accessible. And then they’re not so like wary of that. Joe Casabona34:55 I should, I should state here that I mean, these this was all for testing. This is like a Chrome extension, not a WordPress plugin. Okay, but I think you’re I think your disclaimer is super important, right? Because I could see somebody listening to this and then saying, like, colorblind plugin for WordPress, right. Amber Hinds35:11 And the other, I think the other thing that maybe people don’t think about only so long as they’re like, well, we need one of these, we need something for people that make their screen bigger, or whatever, you know, whatever this might be. But the thing is, is most people who need that functionality they have, they have software on their computer that does that for them. So they don’t really need your website to do that for them. And in fact, some of the times, those plugins can conflict with the software that they use, and they already know how to use. And then they have to learn something new, just to get around your website, which as you can imagine, depending upon their patience level, might mean you’ve just lost a customer or whatever that might be. So So I always I always kind of shut and go err on the side of don’t use those tools. Joe Casabona36:02 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Sorry. The one the one that I was talking about specifically was colorblind. Lee, which is a Chrome extension. Okay, that I was using that yes, for my website, and then I’m like, Oh, this looks terrible for people who are, say, Red Green colorblind. I should have just this. Amber Hinds36:19 Yeah. So that allowed you to see whether the colors on your website were causing problems for people. Joe Casabona36:24 Yes, exactly. Which brings us into the next topic, right, which is testing. You mentioned in the pre show, or maybe in the our pre recording conversation, that there are a couple of ways to do testing, both manual and automated. Why don’t we start with manual and then we’ll talk about a very special tool that you have that can help? Amber Hinds36:45 Yes. So it is important to know that only about 30% of accessibility 30 to 40% of accessibility problems can be found automated with an automated test. So you do have to manually test your website. And what that looks like, is doing a number of things. The first one is very basic, which hopefully we all do when we launch website, which is look at it in multiple browsers, on multiple screen sizes. So test it on different phones, different tablets, different PCs, or Macs, and different browsers. And then within that, then the first thing we do is we do keyboard navigation only. So assume you don’t have a mouse and use the tab and the arrow keys. To move through the website, you want to make sure that you have a clear focus indicator. So every time you hit tab, it is very obvious to you where you are are you around a navigation item? Are you around a link? Are you in a field for a form, whatever that might be? You want to try to trigger every button or link with your keyboard only? Can you move sliders, can you play and pause videos, can you submit a form, add product to cart, whatever that might be without using a mouse. So that’s the first thing you want to do. And then once you’ve done the keyboard navigation, you want to test with a screen reader. If you have Mac’s you can use voiceover it’s built into screen readers, or sorry, it’s built into Macs, and it’s there and available and free. If you have a PC, there’s a couple of different options. I like NVDA, which is an open source one, so it’s free, anyone can download it. jaws is a really popular one, which we do testing with, but it’s somewhat expensive. So if you’re not, if you’re just using it for testing, you probably don’t need to, I do recommend testing with multiple screen readers because they don’t all say the same things which you might, you might be surprised that was surprising to me at first encountered the same element in two different screen readers say two different things. So we recommend testing with at least two and testing on Windows and a Mac. And that’s basically the same thing, you move through the website with your keyboard only with the screen name turned on. And you listen to what the screen reader says and think is this confusing. You can also try there’s different keyboard shortcuts in screen readers like you can navigate by headings. So you could in NVDA, if you press the two key, it’ll read out all the heading twos. And then you could jump to one of them, which is a way that people write, a sighted person can skim and find the information they want easily. But someone who is blind, or has a strong visual impairment can’t do that. And so this is how they skim content, which is why the heading levels matter. So if you skip your heading two, and you’ve just have heading one and heading three, they hit two, they’ll think there’s no headings on the page. And they won’t bother to hit the three key and they’ll think there’s no way I can skim this page. So so you want to test all of those things as well. With a screen reader just to make sure the functionality works. Joe Casabona40:03 That’s, that’s really interesting. Now, as you were speaking, I was kind of doing some of the things on my personal website. Again, when I wrote my book, I did all of this because I needed screenshots I there are videos that accompany the book. And so I ran it through, but I recently changed themes. And just going to my website, and Safari and hitting tab brought me to the three form fields on the website, and then back to the address bar. Amber Hinds40:32 Oh, yeah, because you have a tab index set on your form. So it forces it to the front, even though the form is probably at the bottom of your page. Joe Casabona40:40 That’s exactly right. So that’s really interesting. This is maybe something that we could discuss in the in the members only section of the show, but I was a little, I was a little alarmed to see that because I’m using a reputable theme development shop. And if I’m, if I’m just testing and hitting tab, you know, that that failed. And maybe that’s something that I should I need to work on. Right. Amber Hinds41:05 And and that’s what’s interesting, right? Because that sort of thing is probably come from whatever form plugin that you’re using. There’s an option where you can set a tab index on that forum, when you embed it in the page. And you did it. And you I, you know, I don’t know why you did it, or you might not have even known if you showed or not. And so you did. I you know, I know people do that too. But what happens is, is you have maybe you have a theme that has the skip to content links, and it’s perfectly set up. But now that some setting in some plugin has caused a problem, which is overriding the great theme you have. Right. And so that’s where it’s a little challenging, you know, and I think there’s a whole nother piece, which we won’t even get into, but if you are linking PDF documents, or Word documents, or any of those things on your website, they also have to be accessible. So any content that you share with someone, if you have a PDF download, you have to make sure that that can be accessed also. And it it kind of follows similar guidelines as a website as far as having headings and things like that. Joe Casabona42:18 But that’s Yeah, that’s really interesting. Yeah, that’s, again, that’s not something I would have, I would have thought of at all. Well, I mean, I’m going to stop looking at the code on my website right now, because it’s very distracting. Amber Hinds42:31 You’re gonna leave with homework. Yeah, Joe Casabona42:33 absolutely. Amber Hinds42:34 Your tab index. First, the first thing when you’re doing keyboard navigation, and you hit tab, the first thing you should see is skip links. You with the one exception of sometimes, and we’ve done this for some clients. The first thing when you see when you hit tab is a link to visit the accessibility Help page where it has their accessibility statement. And then it goes to skip links, but it’s like a hidden link that pops up when you hit tab. Joe Casabona43:01 Interesting, Amber Hinds43:02 but generally, that’s the first thing you want to do, because you want to allow people to bypass the navigation and get to the content quickly, especially if you have a very large navigation websites for government agencies that have like, I don’t know 60 things and drop downs, right? Can you imagine if you had to go through every single one of those items on every page just to get to the text of the page. Joe Casabona43:26 This episode is brought to you by text expander. It’s a new year and you can start off on the right foot by reclaiming your time. With text expander you can save time by converting any text you type into keyboard shortcuts called snippets. Say goodbye to repetitive text entry, spelling and message errors. And trying to remember the right thing to say. With text expander you can say the right thing in just a few keystrokes. Better than copy and paste better than scripts and templates. Text expander snippets allow you to maximize your time by getting rid of the repetitive things you type while still customizing and personalizing your messages. Text expander can be used in any platform, any app anywhere you type. Take back your time and increase your productivity in the new year. And let me just say that snippets is not all it does. with advanced snippets, you can create fill ins, pop up fields, and much more. You can even use JavaScript or AppleScript. I can type out full instructions for my podcast editor. Hi Joel, in just a few keystrokes. Another one of my favorite and most used snippets is p p t. This will take whatever text I have on my keyboard and convert it to plain text so I’m no longer fighting formatting. Plus, if you have employees or contractors You can use text expander to manage and share snippets with them. So you all get it right every time. I’ve recently started sharing text expander snippets with my virtual assistant. This year, how I built it is focusing on being productive while working from home. Text expander is the perfect tool for that. Plus, they’re providing resources and blog posts to help you make the most of their tool and be productive. TextExpander is available on Mac OS, windows, Chrome, iPhone and iPad. If you’ve been curious about trying text expander or simple automation in general, now is the time listeners can get 20% off their first year. Just visit text expander comm slash podcast and let them know that I sent to you. Okay, so So you’ve given us a few ways where we can manually test, which as we just demonstrated in real time is important, right? Because again, I made an assumption because I used a reputable theme developer and I made, I’m using only native stuff, right? It’s like the Gutenberg editor and whatever. But you know, they’re still that’s why it’s important to test. Yeah. Now you also have a tool that helps you with automated testing, is that right? Amber Hinds46:17 Yes. So we just launched at the beginning of December, a plugin called accessibility checker. And there’s a free version in wordpress.org. And then we have a pro version. And the goal of this plugin is to test for accessibility problems on websites. And we actually launched it because we would build these websites for our clients, we would train them on how to be accessible, I would hand them a PDF checklist, like every time you write a blog post, or edit content on the page, make sure all these things are true. And unfortunately, I would very rapidly see their websites stop being accessible because of content entry problems. And I kept saying, We need something right on the post or page edit screen, that tells them as they are adding their content or editing the content that’s already there, hey, there’s a problem here you want to look at. So that this year with COVID, we, you know, had a little slow down and I said you know what we’re gonna do with our slow down, we’re gonna build our solution to keeping websites accessible. Joe Casabona47:25 That’s, that’s fantastic. And again, I have the pro version of accessibility checker. So you can look for a video on my YouTube channel. Around the same time, this episode comes out, where you can see how it works. And I’ll link to all of that in the show notes over at how I built it slash 204 as well. Now, you mentioned that only 30 to 40% of accessibility issues can be tracked with automated testing, but it sounds like this is this is really about testing and then guiding the user to making to making sure their content input is correct. Amber Hinds48:07 Yeah. So the goal, the goal with it is yes to help them with any does test more than content. So it tests the full page. So you’re gonna find things that are related to coding potentially, that have to be fixed by a developer if you’re not a developer. But it will also flag content things in our pro version, we are about to release a version that does a full site scan. So it doesn’t just you don’t just have to go into a post or a page to see the audit. And, and that is really great. If you’re installing it on a website that has 500 posts, you know, or more, you can really quick, at a glance, find things that are obvious fixes, like missing all tags, or headings out of order or ambiguous anchor links, all kinds of different things like that. So automated scanning, even though it can’t find everything, because it’s not a human being and it doesn’t really, you know, it can’t know how to screen me to read this and doesn’t make sense. It is a very important part of testing because it can help speed up and solve some of the more obvious problems. I mean, the missing Alt on images is what is the things that is almost always cited in lawsuits when they describe right? Why is this website being sued? And I’m just like, it’s like, it’s almost the easiest thing because any CMS, WordPress, Shopify, any of them they have a little field where you can write with the alt is. But if you haven’t been doing that, it’s hard to know I’ve got all these posts, do I how do I have to go back and click on every image to see if there’s an out there. So that’s why an automated tool is great because they can just tell you, oh, here’s the 30 posts and the specific image on those 30 posts that are missing the alt tag. Joe Casabona49:58 Absolutely. And so That brings us back to something that we touched on earlier in this episode, which is, do all images need all tags? What makes a good alt tag? So, so let’s start with the first question. Do all images need all tags? Amber Hinds50:14 No. Okay. So images that are purely decorative, and provides zero added information to the content or supplementary information, do not need all ties you want. So I should say they, they need to have the alt equals. And then it should have empty quotes. So it can’t not have the alt tag. If it is missing an alt tag, then that is a problem because it will then announce it as an image. But it’ll just say image. And then sometimes it’ll read out the file name, which if you can imagine, Joe Casabona50:57 Yeah, kinda always like useful screenshot and then a date. Like, yeah, just Yeah. Amber Hinds51:05 Really long string of numbers. Yeah. jpg, right. So it needs to have an alt tag. But if it is purely decorative, then the alt type should be empty. And in that case, the screen reader ignores it and doesn’t even announce that there’s an image there. I think there’s a little bit of discussion about what is purely decorative. Joe Casabona51:29 Yeah, Amber Hinds51:30 you know, are is a featured image for a blog post. decorative, is it not? Right? There’s a little bit of discussion there. But I think the idea is, is if you chose that image, because you think it provides something complimentary to the content on the page, then it’s not decorative. And you also don’t want your alt tag to be repetitive. So we see this sometimes on Team bio pages where they have brought the picture of the person and it says, you know, Joe Smith, and, and then and then it has their name right below. Right. So then there’s, there’s a lot of discussion should we have that would be empty, because it doesn’t matter. But then there’s also like you described before, like, should it say, you know, dough man with beard, right? And, and there is some some point to that it’s hard. You know, if you’re doing it for a whole team, you don’t want to, there’s a whole things like, do you want to gender people do you want to like, write, but if you can allow people to describe themselves, sometimes that is important information. Because if someone were to be meeting with that person, and they were going to bring someone along with them, to help them find that person? Sure. Then they know, just like a sighted person would know, if I went and looked at a bio page for this person, I’m meeting and I saw their picture, I’d be like, Oh, you know, that’s a woman with brown hair, you know, or has the appearance of a woman? Right? Right. I could then if I was a blind person, and it read that out to me, I could then share with someone I meeting, they have brown shoulder length hair, you know, so, so there’s some discussion there. But generally, you want it to convey what is in the image or what’s happening. Joe Casabona53:14 Gotcha. So if we’re looking at examples here, right, if you are saying like this graph, this graph shows the number of COVID cases over time in the United States, you would want an alt tag for that. Right? Amber Hinds53:29 And, and with that, you would probably have an alt tag which says, so this is interesting, too, when it’s a graph, or a chart or a map, you would say something like graph of COVID cases in the United States over time, more information below image, more information below And then below the image, you would put the table. Joe Casabona53:52 Okay, Amber Hinds53:52 that contains all the data that the graph is a properly formatted table, so that they can then see, you know, here’s the state and here’s the number of cases and by month or whatever that might be, because they need that information. So so the all time can also be useful and telling people where to find the information. If you have a complex graphic right. Now, you’d otherwise be missing out on. Joe Casabona54:16 Now, if we’re talking about well, let me tie up this one in first, right. Recently, I published a blog post about my favorites of 2020. In some cases, it would be like favorite TV show Ted lasso, and then I’d have like a screengrab from Ted lasso. Which is, I would say more decorative than not because I just put it there to break up the text. But is that I mean, that sounds like something I probably should describe right? Still from the TV show Ted lasso with Ted and beard. Coach beard. Amber Hinds54:48 Yeah, I mean, I, I and I don’t know if you’d necessarily say like still shot from the TV show. What you might think about is what is that still shot from the TV show conveying? So I’ve never heard Have Ted lassa Joe Casabona55:01 Oh, man, it’s an excellent show. Amber Hinds55:04 I also don’t really have TVs. I’m in the dark ages on all that stuff. But but right, if I were looking at this blog post, I might see it and I might know something about the room they’re standing in. Or, you know, like, it might tell me if this is a sci fi TV show if this is a TV show set back in olden days, because of the clothes they’re wearing, right? Like, there’s a lot that’s probably communicated by that still shot, right. So just saying, like, screenshot of Ted Lascaux TV show. leaves out people on screen readers who are missing? No, you don’t want to write a book. Right? Right. Right. But perhaps you want to describe, you know, Joe Casabona55:45 yeah. Two soccer coaches standing in the office. Amber Hinds55:48 Yeah, because that would help people on a screen reader note, oh, maybe this is a show I want to check out. Joe Casabona55:54 Interesting. Okay. Good to know, I’m glad that I’m using this show to get my own like personal consultation. Now, I do want to circle back to the graph, and then we’ll wrap up because we’ve been talking forever. There’s just like so much to know. With the the graphs specifically, right, there’s the HTML tag fig figure and fig caption. would those be the semantically appropriate things to use for, say a graph where I would say like more information below? Or would I include even include, like the data table in the figure tag? Well, this is a little bit in the weeds, but I’m curious about it. Yeah, Amber Hinds56:33 yes. So with figures or canvas elements, you can put data tables right in there. And that that is an appropriate solution. I think it depends on how big your data table is. The other thing to think about is, there was some support, there’s not really much anymore for a long description, which is you could put a URL on the image. And then certain screen readers would then read it out. And people could go there to find the supportive data. But that’s not those sorts of things are where you hide it, like we’ve seen people be like, well, what if we just like wrap this on a screen or text, so it only reads out the data to someone on a screen reader. And I tend to advise against that, because sighted people can usually benefit from tabular data also. So it makes more sense, it makes more sense to have it just visible on the page below your graph. If you don’t want the whole transcript visible on the page, there are options to minimize it, but still have it available. We frequently do things like using an accordion as long as it’s properly coded to put content on the page. And you can do the same thing with your data table. If you don’t want it, if you’re worried that it’s going to make the page look too long, or if it messes with the design, you could also you could have it linked. So you could have a link below the graphic that says, you know, to view the data go here, and it could open a different page or could download a document or maybe a spreadsheet. Again, if you have a document that you’re downloading, it also must be accessible. So there, there are ways to do that. But generally, I would say that data for graphs and charts is beneficial to sighted people as well. And so you want to make it visible to Joe Casabona58:18 Yeah, that’s really interesting, because it kind of goes back to the same thing that we said earlier, like, good semantic HTML goes a long way. If you have good, the good content and the right content, your website’s going to be inherently more accessible. So it’s really you know, just certain things you need to watch out for, like, making sure videos and audio have have transcripts or captions. Making sure that you have all tags in the appropriate places. I think that’s that’s really interesting. So, I know a lot of small Well, actually, you know, we touched on the the benefits of of how accessibility can help your your business as well, right? Because it makes it more accessible. It allows more people to visit your website and use your website, maybe you’re not losing customers, because they can’t get the toppings they want on on the pizza that they’re trying to order. It for those listening, where can are there resources that you would recommend to help them learn more about accessibility. Amber Hinds59:21 I mean, it’s good to go to the source. So if you’re comfortable sort of wading through I hate to say that but wading through the success criteria and you go to W three c.org. You can find the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and all of what those are. They also have really good help articles that explain different aspects of accessibility. And if you’re a developer, how you might implement them. If you use our accessibility checker plugin, we put a lot of effort into our documentation as well because we’re trying to create an educational resource. So every item when it flags, there’s a little icon, you can click on to go over to our website. And read really detailed information about why this particular item got flagged. And what is the relevance of what the relevant success criteria are and how you might fix it. So that is helpful as well. wav is another very common testing tool that a lot of people use for one off free tests. They also have an API that you can pay for if you want to do both testing. And they have pretty good documentation as well on web aim.org. There’s a couple of podcasts that are interesting, on more of the just learning generally about accessibility or how it works. People like the the accessibility rules podcast, and accessible.org has a podcast. If you’re interested in the legal side, there’s an attorney called Lainey. Feingold, who’s been very active in the structured negotiation on accessibility cases. And she writes a lot about that. And she’s a great resource as well. And then, I think I previously mentioned WP accessibility day, that happened a couple months ago. And I think it might be web accessibility day.org if you just Google WP accessibility day, you’ll find all the YouTube videos. And that’s great as well for WordPress specific information. Joe Casabona1:01:14 Awesome. And I will be sure to link all of that everything we talked about in the show notes over at how I built it slash 204. Now, before we go, I do need to ask you two questions. The first is Do you have any trade secrets? For us? Amber Hinds1:01:28 My trade secret, I think, I think the biggest thing is just trying to be aware of what other people do or think, I don’t think I don’t know if that’s a secret as much. But it’s really important to get out and talk to your website users. So if you’re a website owner, talk to your customers and find out what problems they have on your site. A lot of the accessibility things go hand in hand with UX and user experience. And you’d be surprised the things that might confuse people. A really great tool for this too, if you kind of want to spy on people on your website is hot jar that allows you to put a tracking script on. And then you can watch recordings of interactions and people on your website. And we’ll do this a lot when we’re trying to figure out if there’s an accessibility or usability problems or if people have been confused or not taking it. And I think you’ll get like a 14 day free trial of full business plan or something, which if you have a high traffic website, 14 days might give you a lot of data. Joe Casabona1:02:28 That is I’m just gonna give you a hot tip for hot jar right now is I cheaped out and only installed it on the landing page that I wanted to test, which means I never saw what people did when they clicked off that landing page, which included going to my checkout process. So if you’re going to do this, make sure you install it site wide so that you could see what people are doing everywhere on your website. Amber Hinds1:02:53 And I think you get like a 14 day free trial of full business plan or something. Which if you have a high traffic website, 14 days might give you a lot of data. Joe Casabona1:03:03 Yeah, for sure. Maybe team that up with like some ad campaign. Not that I want to spend people’s money. But you know, if you if you can anticipate a high volume of traffic over a 14 day period, maybe that’s a good time to try out a hot jar. Amber Hinds1:03:15 Otherwise, you can use the free plan and still get some information. You just need to go there on a regular basis, review it and delete it so that you can get new data. Joe Casabona1:03:24 Yes, yes. Awesome. Amber, this has been truly fantastic. One of my longer conversations, really. So thank you for taking the time. Where can people find you if they want to learn more? Amber Hinds1:03:34 You can find me at equals digital.com. And the quickest way to jump to the section on our website for accessibility checker for our plugin is to go to a 11 why checker.com it’s 11 like the number one one. So a one one y checker.com we’re pretty active on LinkedIn under eagle eyes digital or my LinkedIn name is just amber Heinz all one word, and you can also email me I’m Amber equals digital.com. And I love talking accessibility so I’m happy to answer questions. Joe Casabona1:04:05 Fantastic. Well, I will again link to all of that and more in the show notes over at how I built it slash 204. Thank you to this week’s sponsors. They are outgrow restrict content pro and TextExpander. for members of the build something club a name, I’m workshopping. I’m going to ask amber if there are any good themes that she would recommend that she knows our accessibility ready so I’m putting her on the spot there. If you’re a member, you’ll get that in the members feed. Otherwise, thanks so much for listening. Until next time, get out there and build something Sponsored by:Outgrow: Use Code Outgrow+Joe-1Month for a 30 Day Free Trial Restrict Content Pro: Launch your membership site TextExpander: Get 20% off your first year by visiting the this link. Source

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's bonus episode of the Blind Tech Guys.On this episode, Nimer and Marco sat down with Mark Muscat and Dr. Scott Hollier for a chat on accessibility, WCAG, and whether we are moving in the right direction with making the web and PDF documents truly accessible. Dr. Hollier and Mark introduced themselves, and discussed their experience in the accessibility field. Marco and Nimer took turns asking questions about a number of topics including: WCAG and its purpose, How valuable is WCAG at making sure companies' web presence is accessible, How do individuals receive training in WCAG, How do companies locate individuals to hire who are trained in WCAG and other accessibility best practices, And what kind of enforcement exists in the U.S. and Australia which mandates companies comply with WCAG, as well as what Mark and Dr. Hollier think works to get companies to comply. This was certainly an interesting conversation. For instance, did you know that in many countries, there are no laws to legislate web accessibility?We want to thank Dr. Scott Hollier and Mr. Mark Muscat for agreeing to discuss this interesting topic with us and the team appreciates you giving up your valuable time in order to be a part of this week's bonus show.Conclusion To get in touch, send us an email to blindtechguyspodcast@gmail.com In order to support the show, please share this podcast, and subscribe using your favourite podcatcher. Links can be found at the Blind Tech Guys website. We can also be found on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. Finally, why not join the Blind Tech Guys Telegram group or be a part of our mailing list by sending a blank email to blindtechguys+subscribe@googlegroups.com Support the show (https://www.pod.fan/blind-tech-guys)★ Support this podcast ★

Accessibility software and hardware, as well as the approaches and patterns that can be applied to software development, enables the use of computing technology for those who are disabled or impaired. Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.2 (WCAG) will be released much sooner than the previous release and organizations need to be ready to implement new changes. But organizations shouldn’t view web accessibility only as another compliance requirement. Accessible organizations also have opportunities to maximize their customer base, achieve more effective SEO, reduce legal risk, support future populations in need, and bolster brand loyalty. In this podcast, specialists from our Customer Experience practice dive deeper into how strong accessibility strategies can help organizations reap rewards beyond compliance.

Melissa Jay Murphy 0:06 Welcome to this week's Title Now Pop Up webinar, I'm Melissa Murphy General Counsel at The Fund, and I have the pleasure of hosting these weekly pop up webinars. For those of you who might be new to this, we offer them pretty much every week. They are on Thursday’s at noon. 30 minutes. I'm pretty strict about that, and they are free, and we just try to touch on a variety of topics that would be of interest to real estate practitioners, Fund Members their staffs, and anyone interested in the real estate and settlement services industry. We also push the audio content out on our podcast, which is also called Title Now, so that's easy to remember. And you can subscribe to that podcast anywhere that you subscribe to other podcasts. So, sign up, and then you can get the audio content if you miss a weekly webinar. So, thanks. Many of our past webinars have focused on an issue related to the pandemic, that we are all currently experiencing remote online notarization altered office practices, eviction and foreclosure moratoriums, which by the way was extended today, until September 1, and the economy. But today we're going to learn about an issue facing many businesses that is not related to the pandemic. So, we're all aware of the Americans with Disabilities Act. And some of us are certainly more aware than others just based on your circumstances. But have you ever thought about whether the ADA applies to websites or to your website? We have the perfect guest with us today to talk about that. So, I want to introduce Adam Chotiner, he's a shareholder with Shapiro Blasi Wasserman Hermann in Boca Raton. He's been practicing law for 22 years. Adam is board certified by The Florida Bar in labor and employment law, but throughout his practice he has also had extensive experience defending public access discrimination claims under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and various types of Fair Housing Act claims. He has counseled countless clients on accessibility matters, including physical barrier issues and website accessibility concerns. So welcome Adam, thank you so much for being with us today. Adam Chotiner 3:12 Thank you, Melissa, and welcome to everybody. I'm going to jump right into it. As she said today, I'm going to speak with you about public Access Disability Discrimination claims. For more than 25 years extensive substantial amount of such claims have been filed against private businesses and property owners under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. Recently there's been a new trend that has developed, where real estate agents and brokers are getting hit with claims that their websites are advertisements, under the Fair Housing Act, and are not accessible to visually impaired individuals. So, let's start at the beginning, which is the ADA. The ADA has three parts to it. Part One deals with employment. Part Two deals with state and local governments. We are dealing with Part Three, Title Three. Title Three became effective in 1993. Beginning around the mid-90s, mid-to-late ‘90s, a wave of ADA lawsuits began to be filed and Florida has consistently been one of the top states for ADA lawsuits in the entire country. Now, when it comes to physical structures and surrounding architectural issues, there are literally hundreds of regulations that specify how these properties and facilities are to be compliant. It covers everything from how wide a parking space needs to be to the slope of the parking lots and ramps to table heights to door widths to even the height of the toilets and the type of faucet handles in the bathroom. The level of detail is actually staggering. But it generally makes it easy to determine whether something is compliant or not. You take out a tape measure, or a level, and it's either compliant or it's not. Since the effective date in 1993, all new construction has had to comply 100% with the regulations. Existing structures at time also need to comply, there is no such thing as being grandfathered in where you just don't have to comply at all. Existing structures have a different standard though they have to comply, but they only have to comply to the extent it is readily achievable. Now what is readily achievable. It's sort of like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. But ultimately if a property or a business is not 100% compliant. Then there is potential exposure and a risk of being sued. And if you cannot achieve 100% compliance, for whatever reason, then the goal is to be as unattractive a target as possible. Melissa Jay Murphy 6:20 What do you mean by an unattractive target? Adam Chotiner 6:25 The example I always give is this. Let's say you have a restaurant. It's a free-standing structure, and it has a restroom, of course. Let's say that everything inside that facility everything from the parking lot to the interior everything is 100% compliant, except the size of the restroom. Okay, even within the restroom, the fixtures are correct, the toilet is the right height, the grab bars are in the right place, but ultimately there's, it's just such an older property that the only way to get sufficient clear floor space within the restroom, is to start knocking down walls, you need to enlarge the restaurant. So, you have a situation like that. But again, everything else is compliant. In my experience, that is not a property that is likely to be sued. Because it's simply an unattractive target to a plaintiff's lawyer. Why, because in that situation, the defendant, number one probably has a good argument that it is not readily achievable. And number two, as part of that you may very well be backing the defendant into the corner where it might be better for the defendant to actually fight the case and establish that it's not readily achievable. And this is a good example of what readily achievable means. It's not just the cost of doing the work. Say again in the restaurant example. Well if you're going to enlarge the restroom, you're going to make something else, smaller, and let's say as a result of enlarging the restroom, you actually lose one or two tables for customers to sit at. Alright well now, there's a different party analysis which gets into ongoing damage ongoing loss of revenue. So that's what I mean when I say, an attractive target. Melissa Jay Murphy 8:24 Okay. Adam Chotiner 8:25 So, until several years ago, pretty much all of the ADA lawsuits were these kinds of physical or architectural barrier cases. Then the attorneys who file these cases decided to try something new. They started suing businesses by claiming that the business's website is inaccessible to visually impaired individuals. Now blind and visually impaired individuals can access and use websites and the internet, using what's called screen reader software. But for the software to be effective, the website itself, simply needs to be programmed in a certain way. And the essence of the claims, was that the websites were not programmed in the right way. Now, these website cases are especially challenging. The main reason is that unlike with physical structures. There are no regulations that specify what it means for a website to be compliant. We just don't know specifically what it means. A secondary challenge is that the law is currently unsettled as to the extent to which a business's website can even be challenged under the ADA. In the 11th circuit, as it stands right now, there needs to be a nexus, or a connection to a physical location that a person may seek to access or learn more about such that the website is treated as an extension of that physical space. Melissa Jay Murphy 10:07 So, have any website cases been brought to trial and end been ruled upon? Adam Chotiner 10:16 So, the question today in the entire United States, there has only been one ADA website case which has gone all the way to trial. Not coincidentally, that was in Florida. In fact, in South Florida, and that case was brought against Winn Dixie the supermarket chain. Winn Dixie lost. Now, before going on to talk about that case this is a good point to discuss what I call, or what people call ‘WIC AG’, WCAG stands for the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. WCAG comes from an organization called the Web Accessibility Initiative, which in turn is part of the World Wide Web Consortium, W3C, the consortium is an international community, that helps set standards for the web, so that the web is more uniform and runs better. For a few years, the standard, quote unquote, for website accessibility under WCAG has been what we call WCAG 2.0. Now that version of the guidelines has 38 of what are called success criteria, which are things that at least ostensibly can be measured in some way to determine accessibility. And recently, they came out with WCAG 2.1, which adds 12 new success criteria for a total of 50. Melissa Jay Murphy 12:00 What are some examples of this success criteria, because I'm trying to envision what it is about a website that is critical? Adam Chotiner 12:11 Sure. Here's just a handful of things that are identified as success criteria. Is there are there transcripts available for video only and audio only content? Is there closed captioning for videos with sound? You cannot rely on color alone to display or convey information. You have to be able to pause, stop or mute any audio conveyed on the website. All content and functions on the website, must be accessible by keyboard only without using a mouse. Users have to be able to navigate through a website in a logical sequential order that preserves meaning. Now, that's a little vague but that is one of the criteria. Melissa Jay Murphy 13:04 You would think that we need that on all websites. Adam Chotiner 13:06 Yeah, you would think though. Form errors need to be easy to identify understand and correct. One of the newer success criteria is to make sure that text spacing is able to be adjusted without causing a poor experience using the website. So those are just some examples of the success criteria. Now, I've handled many of these ADA website cases. And everyone that I've settled on ultimately, we have settled by using the WCAG 2.0 or 2.1 standard. Again, there are no regulations. But WCAG is pretty much the closest thing we have right now to some sort of objective criteria. Melissa Jay Murphy 13:55 So those WCAG guidelines had been used to settle a case but no court has ruled that those are the applicable standards. Adam Chotiner 14:04 No, actually that's what happened in the Winn Dixie. Okay. The Winn Dixie case Winn Dixie lost, and the judge imposed WCAG 2.0 as the standard. Now Winn Dixie appealed that decision. Now oral argument in that appeal before the 11th circuit was held, almost two years ago October of 2018, and we still do not have a ruling. Now, in my experience that's kind of a long time for an appellate court a federal appellate court to, to not rule. We're not really sure what they're waiting for at this point. But those of us who practice in this area are very anxiously waiting for some kind of guidance. So with all that in mind, I'd like to just briefly talk about what I mentioned was sort of the latest craze, which is that a lot of real estate agents brokers and realtors are receiving these demand letters and draft complaints. Now, so far, based on what I've seen these demand letters and draft complaints are being asserted under the Fair Housing Act. As I'm sure you know the Fair Housing Act, anti-discrimination provisions apply to any advertisements. Unfortunately, it's probably difficult to argue that a website, on which available housing can be viewed, is not an advertisement. I think that's the essence of what these demand letters are claiming. Now, a question is why are they traveling under the Fair Housing Act and not the ADA? I believe there's two reasons. First, the ADA only applies to quote places of public accommodation close quote that generally means places like restaurants, stores, shopping centers, malls, movie theaters, gas stations, office buildings, and similar private businesses with a physical location that is open to the public. I think it's at least arguable that real estate agents and brokers, maybe some of them do not represent places of public accommodation, particularly if they maybe work out of their home. So rather than even fight that battle. These lawyers sending these letters are going right to the Fair Housing Act. The second reason why I think they're traveling under the Fair Housing Act is that the ADA does not allow for damages, a plaintiff suing under Title Three of the ADA is not entitled to damages or monetary relief. They're only entitled to injunctive relief, basically in order requiring the defendant to fix the property, of course, that also entitles the plaintiff to have his attorneys’ hourly fees paid. And because it's an only injunctive relief. There are no jury trials, under the ADA, but with the Fair Housing Act damages are recoverable and jury trials are allowed. Melissa Jay Murphy 17:08 So, How are these cases against the real estate agents and the real estate brokers? How are they being defended can they be different? Adam Chotiner 17:18 Well that's a, that's a good question and I think it's the answer is, I'm going to answer it in a more broad sort of way, which really it applies to any of these sort of public access type disability claims. You know, in theory, they certainly can be successfully defended, but it is often cost prohibitive to take that approach. Under these laws, a prevailing plaintiff will recover the attorneys’ hourly fees and costs, however, except in extremely rare situations, a prevailing defendant gets nothing, and a prevailing defendant should not expect to recover their fees and costs. So, most of these cases do settle for nothing else than a business decision in terms of overall cost and expense. Plus, in my experience, it is unusual for there to be insurance coverage that defends these claims. I have seen it, but it's definitely on the unusual side. Now, for many years, a typical defense in an ADA case at least would attack, the plaintiffs standing, essentially, arguing that the plaintiff was not a genuine customer but instead was, you know, a serial filer of lawsuits. Unfortunately for those of us who defend these claims and they in the businesses they get it back in 2013, the 11th circuit held that ADA plaintiffs can have standing as testers, which basically took a bad situation and made it worse. And actually, made it easier for these cases to be filed. Nowadays they the most effective way to defend a claim is for a defendant to fix everything that needs to be fixed and to do it ASAP. Under the ADA, if a defendant fixes everything that's wrong, then the defendant can seek a dismissal based on mootness, since only injunctive relief is available. If everything is fixed, then there's no relief to grant. Significantly infant case is dismissed due to mootness, then the plaintiff is not entitled to attorneys’ fees, even if the defendant only fixed everything, because a lawsuit was filed. Now, in any of these matters there's always two goals. Okay, at least from my standpoint, representing a client. First you want to address and resolve the pending claim. But second, you want to take steps to prevent future claims, because of issues remain. There's definitely exposure for a subsequent lawsuit. Now, for several reasons, you know, certainly, it'll typically take a client, some time to come into compliance. Once a matter settles. Now, if it's a private settlement, and the property or website remains non-compliant pending any modifications, then there is a risk of another claim being asserted, and the fact that you've reached a private settlement with another plaintiff, but yet haven't yet finished the work is not a defense is not a defense. Having said that, if an actual lawsuit has been filed as opposed to a pre-suit settlement, then you can choose to settle the matter via a consent decree, which basically serves as an order of the court. And so, if during the compliance period, and I've seen it anywhere from six months to three years or more. But if during that period another claim is asserted, then you would have an excellent argument that the new law suit is moot and shouldn't be dismissed, because the defendant is already under a court order, meaning this consent decree, and that order provides remaining time to comply. Ultimately, the sad truth is that when it comes to these public access claims. There really is no sort of get out of jail free card. There's no, I say there's no VIP lounge or champagne room, you know, they need to be addressed and ultimately it's going to cost money plain and simple. Adam Chotiner 21:47 Now, I will say this. One of the issues with website issues is that taking the approach or quote unquote fixing everything right away is challenging. Why? Because there are no regulations, and so it can be very difficult to convince a court that your website now complies with the ADA or the Fair Housing Act. When we really don't know what it means to comply in the first place. So that can be really challenging, but I when I speak about these public access claims I always like to tell the Clint Eastwood story. And I tell it to clients as well. The Clint Eastwood story doesn't necessarily make my client feel any better once they've been sued. But I do tell it to demonstrate that that businesses and individuals who get hit with these claims. They shouldn't necessarily feel powerless, because they're the little guy. The truth is sometimes you can't fight City Hall, no matter who you are. For many years, one of the primary gripes about these public access claims, is that the law does not require pre suit notice it simply does, you can just go right into filing a lawsuit. There have been attempts to change the law, including a couple of years the House of Representatives passed the bill. But it went nowhere in the Senate. And I will tell you having followed this issue for many years. This is not some kind of political hot potato issue. That scenario I just described is played out many times over the past 20 years, with different parties in the two houses and in the White House. It just doesn't matter who is in charge. It just hasn't happened, and I don't think it's going to happen. So about 15 to 20 years ago, Clint Eastwood got sued. Regarding the restaurant that he owns in Carmel, California, where many years ago he was the mayor. Now, like many people. He couldn't believe that the law didn't require a pre-suit notice, but unlike most people, and because he's Clint Eastwood. He was able to go to Washington DC, and he spoke before a congressional committee and implore them to change the law for all the reasons you might expect. But as you've already heard nothing happened, law hasn't been changed. The moral of the Clint Eastwood story is that in Dirty Harry couldn't get something done really what chance do the rest of us have, again, doesn't necessarily make feel, make people feel better, but it might make them feel a little less powerless that ultimately you're just up against something that it's very difficult to fight. So, for now, like I said, We await further guidance from the courts, particularly on these website issues. But ultimately, if someone does get hit with an ADA claim or a demand letter under the Fair Housing Act, really they need to try and look to achieve the same two goals I mentioned earlier. You want to address an obvious thing resolve the immediate claim, but it is important to take steps to try and prevent future claims. Thank you. Melissa Jay Murphy 25:08 So, Adam a couple of questions, with regard to the website situation. Are there companies out there that are sort of in the business or are in the business of helping companies fix their websites? Is there a burgeoning industry out there? Is that a well-established industry? Adam Chotiner 25:38 I'm not sure I would describe it as well established, but it is an industry now I will say this. Nowadays, there's things that you can buy that I've seen this sold called widgets that are ostensibly these autonomous programs and sort of apps that you can install on a computer system that are intended to, you know, address these kinds of website issues. However, in my experience, what I've found is that they're better than nothing, but in many cases I believe that the level of compliance that they help you achieve is still significantly lacking, and does leave you exposed. If a company came to me and said, you know, money is no object. We want to be as compliant as possible. We want to comply with WCAG 2.1 to the maximum extent. How do we do that? Then I would advise them to engage a company that does specialize in website accessibility compliance, and there are companies like that. There are companies that I've referred clients to. And what these companies do is, it's not merely a matter of programming to achieve true compliance, you want to do human auditing. What the widgets purport to do is sort of autonomous auditing, but it just isn't as effective. So these companies make the programming changes to the website, but then they literally do human spot checking. They actually check the effectiveness of the changes they go through, the success criteria, and they see hands on is this stuff, you know, now compliant the way that WCAG intends. Melissa Jay Murphy 27:55 So you need to make sure that whatever company or product that you buy knows what those guidelines are and agrees to bring you in compliance with whatever the most current version of those guidelines would be on the pretty reasonable assumption that that's going to be the measure, or the standard against which you're going to be measured. Adam Chotiner 28:20 That's true. And I will say I mean, you know like, when a lot of things you do get what you pay for the widgets are generally an economical option because it's like I said it's sort of autonomous. But to give you an example when the Winn Dixie trial took place. The testimony at that trial was that for Winn Dixie to get its website to comply with WCAG 2.0, that the cost involved in that was a six-figure number. So now granted the Winn Dixie website has hundreds maybe thousands of pages to it. Because presumably you know if you click on a product, you know it might have its own page so it's an extensive website and generally speaking, the cost of modifying a website is largely tied to how many pages the site consists of, but it's not necessarily an inexpensive proposition to have a company do it with human auditing. But again, if you're really looking to protect yourself and you're looking to maximize or minimize your exposure and risk, then that's the way to go. Melissa Jay Murphy 29:44 Well, Adam, we are out of time. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us and clearly you've just touched the surface with us on this issue but I think you've done a great job of telling us what we need to know in order to know how much we don't know which is always helpful in my estimation. Adam Chotiner 30:09 Everybody now knows enough to be dangerous. Melissa Jay Murphy 30:11 Very, very. Melissa Jay Murphy 30:14 That's always our goal in these webinars. Adam Chotiner 30:18 You're right. You're very welcome Melissa Thank you very much. Thank you everybody for having me. Thank you. Melissa Jay Murphy 30:24 Thanks everybody for attending. You can catch the audio content on our podcast I will remind you of that and look for the notifications of our future pop up webinars, Thursdays at noon 30 minutes. And as always, Thank you for your support of The Fund.

Website Readability is one of the KEY things your website must have to increase sales and grow your business. This is NOT website USEability. That's something else. What I'm talking about here is the ability of your potential customers and visitors to actually read and understand what's on your website. If they can't do that, they will move on and you don't want that. That's why READability is key! Screw The Commute Podcast Show Notes Episode 312 How To Automate Your Business - https://screwthecommute.com/automatefree/ Internet Marketing Training Center - https://imtcva.org/ Higher Education Webinar – https://screwthecommute.com/webinars 06:24 Tom's introduction to Website Readability 07:36 Short paragraphs 08:33 Leaving "white space" and other visibility tips 10:56 Get your ego out of "cool" looking websites 11:44 Avoid jargon 12:51 Tips for maximizing text readability 16:45 Types of fonts to use 20:16 Sponsor message 22:35 Bullets Entrepreneurial Resources Mentioned in This Podcast Higher Education Webinar - https://screwthecommute.com/webinars Screw The Commute - https://screwthecommute.com/ Screw The Commute Podcast App - https://screwthecommute.com/app/ College Ripoff Quiz - https://imtcva.org/quiz Know a young person for our Youth Episode Series? Send an email to Tom! - orders@antion.com Have a Roku box? Find Tom's Public Speaking Channel there! - https://channelstore.roku.com/details/267358/the-public-speaking-channel How To Automate Your Business - https://screwthecommute.com/automatefree/ Internet Marketing Retreat and Joint Venture Program - https://greatinternetmarketingtraining.com/ Web Content Accessibility Guidelines - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ Contrast Checker - https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/ Fonts - https://accessibility.psu.edu/legibility/fontface/ Readability Test Tool - https://www.webfx.com/tools/read-able/ Internet Marketing Training Center - https://imtcva.org/ Related Episodes Link Bait - https://screwthecommute.com/311/ More Entrepreneurial Resources for Home Based Business, Lifestyle Business, Passive Income, Professional Speaking and Online Business I discovered a great new headline / subject line / subheading generator that will actually analyze which headlines and subject lines are best for your market. I negotiated a deal with the developer of this revolutionary and inexpensive software. Oh, and it's good on Mac and PC. Go here: http://jvz1.com/c/41743/183906 The Wordpress Ecourse. Learn how to Make World Class Websites for $20 or less. https://www.GreatInternetMarketing.com/wordpressecourse Join our Private Facebook Group! One week trial for only a buck and then $37 a month, or save a ton with one payment of $297 for a year. Click the image to see all the details and sign up or go to https://www.greatinternetmarketing.com/screwthecommute/ After you sign up, check your email for instructions on getting in the group.

Mark Mirchandani is back this week as he and co-host Brian Dorsey learn all about voice coding with some great guests! Emily Shea, senior software engineer at Fastly and user of Talon Voice, and Ryan Hileman, developer of Talon Voice, tell us about Repetitive Strain Injury and how it led to the design and use of Talon Voice. Talon allows not only straight voice input but includes eye tracking, noise recognition, and user customization to perform complex actions like moving windows, selecting text, and user-specific workflow customizations without touching any hardware. Emily describes her experiences with Talon, including the process to get started and how she looked past voice recognition stereotypes to find how useful the product could be. She demos Talon for us, explaining how the alphabet system works. Ryan types a sentence using his voice then explains the process of developing the alphabet and other parts of Talon. Later, Ryan and Emily tell us how they write code using Talon and the logistics of using the software at home or in the office. We end the show talking about how Talon and voice recognition software have helped people with and without debilitating injuries and given hope to those spending hours on computers every day. Emily stresses the importance of adding accessibility to websites to accommodate Talon users and others with disabilities. Emily Shea Emily is a Senior Software Engineer at Fastly, where she works on the platform for delivering core Edge Cloud configurations. Because of a Repetitive Strain Injury, she develops using Talon’s speech recognition. Ryan Hileman Ryan was a software engineer for over a decade and in 2017 quit his job due to hand pain. He has since worked full time on Talon with a mission of enabling anyone to be equally productive for any and all tasks on a computer without their hands. Cool things of the week How to find—and use—your GKE logs with Cloud Logging blog The Stack Doctor videos Using Recommenders to keep your cloud running optimally blog Interview Talon Voice site Talon Slack site Talon Patreon site Hammerspoon site AutoHotkey site Whale Quench site The Accessibility Project site Web Content Accessibility Guidelines site Perl Conference video Demo from The Perl Conf video Strange Loop video Demo from Strange Loop video Ryan’s demo video Street Fighter video Tip of the week Bret McGowen helps us get started on serverless with GCP!

Digital accessibility came into my concern five years ago when I design the user interface for a physical product. I wondered how people with disabilities may actually use this thing I just designed. Fast forward five years and I sit with clients and partners on developing universal design strategy to embed accessibility standards through the entire product lifecycle. Digital accessibility lawsuits are on the rise and Beyonce and Dominos are only just the beginning. This episode talks about my history with digital accessibility, legal considerations and history, maturity of teams to embed accessibility standards into your design systems, and where you can go and learn about digital accessibility. I start off this episode pissed off because as a design professional, this is a no-brainer. But in this age...I can't take anything for granted.

It’s equally important to offer an uninterrupted user experience for your differently-abled customer base as well. If you’re running an e-commerce store digital accessibility is really important which makes it easy for someone with disabilities to navigate through the site with ease. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) became law in 1990 to emphasize equal rights for disabled users.Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, WCAG 2.0 replaced WCAG 1.0 in December 2008, followed by WCAG 2.1 was issues in June 2018. WCAG 2.2 and WCAG 3.0 (referred to as Silver) is already in development. For now, WCAG 2.0 is grouped into three levels, A, AA, and AAA. With Level A being the basic, AA deals with the most common and biggest barriers, and AAA considered to be the most complex & highest level of accessibility.In this episode, I sit down with Sivaranjani Ramamoorthy one of our Digital Accessibility Specialists. Her previous roles as a Quality Assurance Architect and a Project Manager, helped her to understand the complete flow of ADA compliance. She covered so many things in this episode on what is the disabilities act, to what it means for the brands.So, just go ahead and listen in and if you have any comments on the show, just send them over to me.Show Notes and Links:[3:45] What is ADA Compliance?[4:51] How is this related to eCommerce?[5:56] How differently-abled people find it difficult to access the online store?[9:24] The revenue impact of differently-abled people in the market[11:22] Levels of Compliance[15:48] The steps to make your website ADA Compliant[19:35] Is the current COVID situation the right time to take a break and make your website ADA compliant?[21:46] While ADA is focused on the USA, what are the web accessibility compliance laws in other countries?[23:10] How a Non-ADA compliance impact your businessADA Compliance SolutionsDriven: Ecommerce at Work HomeDCKAP on TwitterADA Compliance Reference Websites:usa.govdelta.comco-operativebank.co.ukunilever.comsavethechildren.netmanchester.ac.ukboot.combbc.comSaudia.com Let us know how’s our show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts :-)

#AXSChat – 21st of April – Kate M. Sonka & Larry GoldbergHosted by Antonio Vieira Santos, Debra Ruh and Neil Milliken.Kate M. Sonka is the Executive Director of Teach Access and the Assistant Director of Academic Technology at the College of Arts & Letters at Michigan State University. She holds a M.Ed. in Bilingual/Bicultural Education and a TESOL certificate from DePaul University. She improves teaching and learning with technology through course design and support, experiential learning, and training and mentorship for faculty members and students. Her scholarly areas of interest include disability, accessibility, second language acquisition, the role of language in identity development, and the intersection of accessibility and experiential learning.Kate's teaching experience includes a first-year writing course for non-native English speakers; a study abroad about language acquisition and global English in China; a study away to Los Angeles where students explore and meet leaders in the film and creative industries; and a study away to Silicon Valley where students engage and build relationships with tech companies around accessibility.Larry is Senior Director and Head of Accessibility at Verizon Media. In this role, he directs a dedicated team of accessibility professionals and coordinates with thousands of designers and developers to ensure that Verizon Media's many products, services and media offerings are as accessible as possible to people with disabilities. Verizon Media brands (Yahoo Finance, News, Sports and Lifestyle; Huffington Post, Engadget, Tech Crunch, Makers, AOL, and many others) all have mobile apps and websites that are designed and developed to conform to the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. The brands also produce dozens of daily original programs – virtually all of which are captioned – and provide captions for thousands of partner videos, including content from Bloomberg, Fox Business News, AP, Reuters, MLB, NFL, Conde Nast, the Discovery networks and more. The Verizon Media Accessibility Team also supports major industry-wide efforts to raise the level of accessible technology awareness and understanding, as well as depiction of people with disabilities in the media, through projects such as The Disability Collection, Teach Access and XR Access.Larry joined Verizon Media in June of 2014, having previously worked at WGBH Boston, where he founded and directed its National Center for Accessible Media (NCAM). NCAM focused on research and development, public policy initiatives and strategic partnerships for global impact on inclusive media and technology. Larry was directly involved in such ground-breaking legislation as the TV Decoder Circuitry Act, The Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. He led efforts to create standards adopted by media organizations and the FCC to implement legislated mandates for accessible technology.Before starting NCAM, Larry directed WGBH's Media Access Group and its Caption Center and Descriptive Video Service. He holds a patent for “Rear Window,” a theatrical movie captioning system, and developed the market for captioning in movie theaters.Larry majored in Cinema Studies at SUNY Binghamton and received a BA with honors in Broadcast Journalism from the University of Southern California.

For All Abilities – The Podcast Episode Nine - Sheri Byrne-Haber - Digital and Workplace Accessibility    In this episode, I interview Sheri Byrne-Haber - Senior Accessibility Evangelist. On the podcast, Sheri talks about her disabling and living as a person of determination. We discuss her career and the importance of digital accessibility.  To connect with Sheri, please follow her  on LinkedIn (Sheri Byrne-Haber) or read her blog at sheribyrnehaber.com.      Go to our website www.forallabilities.com for information on our software that enables employers to support their employees with ADHD, Dyslexia, Learning Differences and Autism. Thanks for listening!  Betsy     Thanks for listening to For All Abilities today!    Share the podcast with your friends, they’ll thank you for it!   Get our newsletter and stay up to date! The newsletter link is on our website www.forallabilities.com   Follow me   Twitter: @betsyfurler   Instagram: @forallabilities   Facebook: @forallabilites   LinkedIn: @BetsyFurler   Website: www.forallabilities.com   Full Transcription from Otter.ai   Betsy Furler  0:08   Hi, thanks for listening to the For All Abilities podcast today. I have a special guest with me today Sheri Byrne-Haber And Sheri could you just introduce yourself to our audience and I hope I pronounced your name correctly.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  0:24   It's burn haber, but it's really easy to get wrong. So I'm Sheri Byrne-Haber.  I am currently the head of accessibility for VMware, which is I like to describe as the largest software company that most people have never heard of. We have I think, 29,000 employees and we're mostly owned by Dell, which people heard of. I have degrees in computer science, law and business and I've been working exclusively in the disability related area for about 15 years and For the last eight years, I've largely been focusing on digital accessibility.   Betsy Furler  1:05   Awesome. Well, let's start this conversation. I like to ask people what they were like when they were a child. And so can you tell us a little bit about what you were like when you were a little girl and how that influenced the professional that you are today?   Sheri Byrne-Haber  1:23   Sure, so I have a congenital mobility issue. I was born with clubbed feet and caifa scoliosis. And when I was a little girl that was about 25 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed. So my childhood was pretty complicated. I've spent about 15% of my life in casts, either resulting from fractures or recovering from surgery. And when there were no curb cuts. That was a problem. You know, my mom's five foot nothing, so she couldn't take me to grocery store in my wheelchair with her For example, Yeah, wow, what? how different it was, it was really different. You know, I couldn't go to the movie theater with my friends. You know, I got scheduled for second story classes in high school with no elevator. The captain of the football team had to carry me up the stairs to get my diploma in middle school. Wow. So there are certain events like that, that really stick out in my mind that when you mention it to people that are less than, say, 35 they're like, that was legal.   Betsy Furler  2:33   Right. And, you know, the scary thing about that, though, is even though it's shocking to hear that, you know, then I think back to my son who's 21. So when he was in middle school that was only nine ish years ago. And he was in a wheelchair for one of those years. And while they had an elevator, it didn't work most the time.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  2:58   I litterally experienced That like two days ago, I was got to a retail store in a strip mall. And it was raised on a platform. So there were stairs to all the places and then in the corner there was, you know, one of those little retrofitted wheelchair lifts. And they couldn't find the key. And then the woman's even if we could find the key, it's probably broken. Seriously. This is a 2020. Lady.   Betsy Furler  3:26   Right. And we went to about four years ago, we got this amazing opportunity to go to New York City with friend and her mom, and she's in a wheelchair. And the trying to get around New York City was much more difficult in the wheelchair than I ever expected it to be. Yeah. The things that we that you don't think of if you're not in the wheelchair.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  3:57   There was a story that broke my heart. About a year ago about a young mother who died when she broke her neck she fell down the stairs in the subway system because she was trying to drag her kid up in a stroller. And you know, I think something I have a friend who works in accessibility and the New York Public transit system something only like 25% of the subway system in New York has a has elevators so but yeah, yeah, we just percent is unusable. The taxis don't like to stop for people in wheelchairs. I mean, I literally live in lift and Uber when I'm in New York, but I and I'm in New York a lot because that's where my mother in law lives. But there's really a certain level of privilege that's involved with that I can afford lifted. Right and and I feel pretty bad for the people who, you know, don't have those luxuries and are stuck with the default system that's presented for people with no money.   Betsy Furler  5:00   so you encountered quite a few probably mobility challenges,   Sheri Byrne-Haber  5:09   I guess for better lack of a better word when you're growing up as far as not being able to go to events and things like that because of mobility. What about college? college? I was so lucky. I live in the Bay Area. So I started college in Let me see 1980 I think, and I the only college I applied to was Cal. And because I knew that Cal was Roberts and Ed Roberts would have been at one yesterday it was actually Ed Roberts day so god bless you Ed Roberts, because without him, I might not have gone to college. And instead, you know, I've done 11 years of college so far I my family jokes, I do a degree every 10 years. My original degrees in computer science. I did software testing for a long time. Then I decided I wanted to go to law school practice law for a while, decided I didn't like lawyers, went back and did an MBA. And I'm currently working on a PhD in public policy. Wow.   Betsy Furler  6:18   Wow. So you, you excelled? academically?   Sheri Byrne-Haber  6:22   I loved to learn and part of it was that I was just steered naturally towards that because of my lack of ability to do physical stuff.   Betsy Furler  6:31   Right, right. So how did you get into the world of accessibility?   Sheri Byrne-Haber  6:38   So, I'm about 15 years ago, I was an advocate for the Deaf. So if you Google my name, you'll see a lot of things associated with insurance appeals and cochlear implants and things like that. So I did some contested special education plans for children who are deaf and a few children with autism. And I sued insurance companies for failing to provide adequate coverage to people who are deaf. They were being turned down for hearing aids. They were being told one cochlear implant is good enough. You don't need to hear out of the other side. Right. First total BS.   Betsy Furler  7:14   Right as a speech pathologist i that is I feel   Sheri Byrne-Haber  7:20   Its like  that was just yesterday, actually, that there were so many issues with getting hearing aids covered by insurance. I mean, I still think it's there's quite a gap in that area. But there is a lot of it is because the difference between self insured plans and traditionally insured plans. So fully insured plans get to go to the insurance commissioner get to use state law, self insured plans with which bigger companies tend to have don't. So there's still a third of the people in the US who are on self insured plans that can't avail themselves of state laws mandating hearing aid coverage, but I did get united healthcare, to start Covering hearing aids, and I got all the insurers in the US to start covering bilateral cochlear implant. That's   Betsy Furler  8:08   amazing.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  8:10   So after I put myself out of business with that, and my personal motivation for doing that was because of my own daughters hearing loss. I thought what can I do that ties my passion for disabilities in with the computer science degree that I originally had. And accessibility was just starting to take off then that was maybe a couple of years after the target lawsuit had been resolved. And that's how I got into digital accessibility. And I've been doing that ever since.   Betsy Furler  8:43   That's great. Tell us about your what your workday looks like as far as what accommodations do you use?How does all of that personally affect you?   Sheri Byrne-Haber  8:58   So my accommodations I have glaucoma, I've had both of my lens. Inside my eyes. I do use magnification. And I use a screen reader sometimes for things that can't be magnified. Which is good because like when I had my last eye surgery I couldn't see for three weeks. And if I hadn't been able to use the screen reader, I would have been completely hosed. So it was it was quite fortunate. All the buildings that I worked in are pre ADA. They've all been retrofitted. So VMware has an enormous campus in Palo Alto. They all have elevators, but I've been working with our facilities department to do a few other things like reorganizing the kitchen so I can reach the coffee from my wheelchair, and right and changing a few things in the cafeteria. You know, it's little stuff like that, but the little stuff, they're kind of like micro aggressions, they really start to add up for our After a while, and so being able to fix a few small things definitely helps my stress levels at work. Right. Right and, and makes you able to do things for yourself. instead of always having to ask somebody else Hey, can you grab that? Everybody? Everybody thinks, Oh, just ask people always will want to help you. And it's like, Yeah, but I don't always have, you know, I don't want to ask necessarily don't want people, right. Sorry. For me, this is not a pity party. Right.   Betsy Furler  10:30   Right.    that's one of the things about accommodations that I think is so important for employers to think about is that it's not it's not that people don't want to help you or, or you don't want help. It's that we all deserve to be able to do things on our own time and be able to use our strengths rather than having to waste even if it's 30 seconds. Getting somebody else in that kitchen with you to grab that mug for you. Right? But   Sheri Byrne-Haber  11:05   it's 30 seconds 20 times a day. Exactly right. You know, and then you're starting to you're starting to talk about, you know, real mindshare about things you have to think about. And real time in the end, you know, first in the country, the country that's made the most accommodations in, say the last two years is the United Arab Emirates. And they took the phrase people with disabilities and changed it to people of determination.   Betsy Furler  11:34   As I've read that, that's so beautiful.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  11:37   I absolutely adore it because I don't think there's any phrase better to describe me than a determined person. Yes. And and so I really love that.   Betsy Furler  11:48   Yes, that's so great. And but you're right about the the amount of time that having to for instance, having to look for the curb cut or what For the one elevator that works, cannot just it's frustrating and it's literally a time waster. But you also have a lot of mental energy.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  12:12   Yeah, it's mental energy. But let me tell you another story. So I used to work in San Francisco. And you know, wanting to be environmentally friendly. I used to drive to the San Bruno BART station and then I would take verda to the city. Well, first of all the elevators in the BART system are all more than 50 years old, their original the company's gone out of business, when they need parts they have to be like custom crafted and it takes them three months to get the replacement part. So when it all later goes down, it's it's frequently down for three months. Why and the thing is, they only tell you when the elevators in the station are broken. They don't tell you when the elevators in the garage are broken. And so I had so many fights with them because I would get to the BART station and I couldn't get I would get to the parking garage. And then I wouldn't be able to the station because I couldn't get out of the parking garage. And I finally gave up and and decided to drive into the city every day. And so I refer to that as as a disability tax. There's just so many things that people with disabilities actually have to pay for, in either time, energy or money or sometimes all three, that people without disabilities don't even think about.   Betsy Furler  13:27   Right, right. And then it also gets into the   how privileged are you and can you afford those things based on time, energy and money? Right, so I   Sheri Byrne-Haber  13:39   have three degrees I am reasonably well paid and so forth. You can write but I had parents who fought for me before idea and IEP existed for a long time they went to the school board meetings, they harassed my teachers, right? They were really, really proactive, you know, and they spoke English. And they were well educated.   Betsy Furler  14:01   Right? Right,   Sheri Byrne-Haber  14:03   which is one of the reasons why I went into advocacy for the death because I realized how many things I lost out on as a kid, even with that advocacy. And I got everything that my daughter needed. She She has significant hearing loss to be successful. She's doing a PhD in audiology right now. And I was a lawyer and I speaking English is my native language and so many people out there don't have that privilege. And so I fought for those kids. Because I one for my own. Haha.   That's incredible. So tell us tell my audience a little bit about digital accessibility, just kind of like a, you know, a summary the background behind it. And really just anything you want to say about that. I I think that there probably many people in my audience that don't know much about digital accessibility.   Sure. So my sound bite for digital accessibility is that you know, Stephen Hawking if he were still alive, wouldn't need to be able to use makes digital accessibility is about making things work for any disability or any combination of disabilities, because you never know that somebody is going to have Parkinson's and epilepsy, for example. There, there could be any combination. So people with disabilities sometimes use what we call assistive technology. If you've ever done pinch to zoom on your phone, Congratulations, you've used assistive technology, that that's a magnification tool to interface between themselves and the software, either a website or an app usually. So it does take something that you can't do or perceive and turns it into something that you can do or perceive. So for example, people with vision loss us back to vacation, people with who are completely legally blind because vision loss is on a spectrum, right frequently use something called Screen readers and screen readers are usually built into the operating systems but not always. And they take the visuals on the web page, and they converted into sound. for the, for the blind user, people who are deaf use closed captioning. So that one's really straightforward. But if you don't do the right coding on the web page or the mobile app, for example, if you leave out descriptions of pictures, even though the screen reader might nominally work, the content won't be equivalent to somebody who's blind because you're not describing the pictures. You know, I have a map app, for example, like, I don't want to name names, but just say a ride sharing app that's got maps, you have to have a text equivalent of that map for people who are blind because they're not going to be able to look at the map and go, Oh, that taxi is closest. Right, right. And then people who don't have good Hands control will use something called a switch. Sometimes people have carpal tunnel can't use mice, so they use a keyboard in order to be completely digitally accessible. You have to work with a keyboard, you can't require a mouse or touch because you can't assume that somebody can actually reach out and touch the device. They may have it fixed frame attached to their wheelchair that may be their care provider up there for them. voice control is another good one that's starting to get more and more advanced AI recognition of speech with varying different accents. So that's a few examples of assistive technology. There's a set of guidelines called WC Ag and they stand for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. And if you are following the guidelines that are in version 2.1 level, double A which is just a fancy way of saying The three levels a double A and triple A double A is the middle level. That's the standard that most courts and the government systems use to determine whether or not something accessible. So 50 rules, you follow the rules, you're probably good to go if you're breaking any of the rules, depending on how important you're either making something hard for somebody with a disability or you're completely blocking them altogether from using your website or mobile app.   Betsy Furler  18:27   Yes, great explanation. Thank you.   Yeah, for going through all that, and I think digital accessibility is becoming a bigger and bigger deal. As as each year passes,   Sheri Byrne-Haber  18:42   especially in California, so California, January 1 2020, the ccpa just kicked in the California Consumer Protection Act, and there are actually references in there to accessibility. So all the court cases in California have come out with Pro accessibility, this is largely honestly been lost driven. The rules for the government procurement, which is called section five away have existed for 16 years. But they largely weren't enforced. The government continued to procure inaccessible software, despite the rules saying that they couldn't. And so people with disabilities got fed up and started filing lawsuits. And they're winning 98% of the lawsuits. And the 2% that are losing aren't losing because they have bad cases, they're largely losing because they don't have great lawyers. So there were 2300 lawsuits filed in 2019, and also in 2018. So this is a problem. That's not going to go away until people start getting the message that if the rules apply to them, either through state law or federal law, that they have to make their websites accessible,   Betsy Furler  19:55   right, and it's it really excludes a large Number of the population when companies don't have an accessible website, so I think many companies I, I, I also have a software that helps employers support their employees with ADHD, dyslexia, learning differences and autism, really lots of other disabilities as well or conditions as well. But that's kind of the focus of it. And so many companies so many business people have said to me, Oh, we don't have any, any, any employees with disabilities, or like, we don't have any customers with disabilities or Well, I was about to say some things. Some companies will try to say we don't have any customers with disabilities, it's like, yes.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  20:43   Well, or no, you don't, it's a catch 22   Betsy Furler  20:46   or maybe you don't because they can't get into your get onto your website and use it.    Sheri Byrne-Haber  20:50   Exactly. And, and you know, you you think about going like, let's say I'm a Product Owner, and I go to the the general manager of the company. And I say, hey, I've got this great idea, but we're going to block 18% of our customers for being able to use it. Yeah. But imagine actually trying to present that to a decision maker the night that you were out of your mind. But that's exactly what happens when people with disabilities can't access software. Anything that goes out to in today's day and age, that's not digitally accessible. That's not following the guidelines in what CAG 2.1 level double A is automatically blocking 18% of their potential audience.   Betsy Furler  21:33   Right. And I would, I would say that's a minimal minimum, because then there are people out there who   aren't aren't counted in the numbers precisely.    Sheri Byrne-Haber  21:44   That's a census number, the actual rate much higher. If   Betsy Furler  21:48   I say disability,Oh, go ahead.    Sheri Byrne-Haber  21:51   I was just gonna say the estimate globally ranges between 15 and 20%. Depending on you know, the country that you're in haha Developed Countries typically have higher rates of disability, because of better health care, you know, they're right there saving people, but the people who are saved in the healthcare system potentially have disabilities going forward.   Betsy Furler  22:14   Right? And disability is the only minority group that we're all going to be a member of, if we   Sheri Byrne-Haber  22:19   exactly I tell people in my introduction to accessibility class, there are two groups of people, people who are disabled and people who are going to be disabled. Right,   Betsy Furler  22:29   right. And especially when you look into I'm very into cognitive disabilities and cognitive accessibility as well. And that incorporates really everyone at one time in their life or the other has brain fog or has had an illness that decreases their cognitive ability or their cognitive acuity at the moment. And it's so important with our world being so digital now. That that people are able to access the information and I mean, that's our whole life is digital now.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  23:07   So there's an update coming to WC ag that specifically for cognitive disabilities. It's called the Kocha task force or Kocha. TF is sometimes how it's abbreviated. And I'm hoping that the coca updates will be coming with the next update in WC AG, which is 2.2, which is coming in November. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I haven't heard anything official yet. So two point 10 progress. hoga is in progress. Hopefully they'll converge. That would be great. Yeah.   Betsy Furler  23:39   Um, well, if members of my audience would like to connect with you or get more information from you, how can they find you?   Sheri Byrne-Haber  23:47   So I have a pretty extensive medium blog, I blog on accessibility and disability related issues. I try to do it twice a week. And so you just need to know how to spell my last name which is b y r and E hyphen h a b like boy er I'm the only burn haters on the planet are either me or my children are hard to figure out which one is me and you can I have sheribyrnehaber.com is my fully accessible blog where I transfer all of my medium articles over to medium is kind of sort of accessible. Sherihaberbyrne.com is completely accessible.   Betsy Furler  24:29   Awesome and any spell Sherry with an eye correct. Aaron and I   Sheri Byrne-Haber  24:34   the the most obscure of the 14 Spelling's my parents could have possibly   Betsy Furler  24:42   well, awesome. Well, I am so glad that we connected and that you agree to be on the podcast today. This is fantastic. And thanks so much. And I'm sure my audience will be connecting with you.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  24:57   That sounds great. Feel free to Reach out. I always love to talk to people who are as excited about this field as I am. Or Kristen and joining the field. I've written several articles for people about how to get into accessibility.   Betsy Furler  25:12   Oh, that is fantastic. Yeah, I might. I'm going to try to link one of those in the show notes.   Sheri Byrne-Haber  25:18   I'll send you a link. Perfect.   Betsy Furler  25:21   Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me here.    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Laura Stevens:  Hello, and welcome to the Government Digital Service Podcast. My name is Laura Stevens and I’m a Creative Content Producer here at GDS. And today’s podcast is going to be on the GOV.UK Design System.    The GOV.UK Design System is a collection of tools and resources for designing and building products and services. It provides styles, components and patterns that are accessible. This helps hundreds of teams across the public sector design and build services that are of high quality and can be used by anyone.    The impact of the design system, created and managed by a team of 10 here at GDS, is significant. It’s used in central government, local government and has also been used by the NHS and international governments to develop their own design systems. It saves teams time and money and helps give people a consistent and accessible experience when interacting with government.    To tell us more is Tim Paul, who is on the team who launched the GOV.UK Design System. Tim has also been at GDS for a long time, he was on the team that launched GOV.UK in fact as well. We’re also going to be hearing from people from central and local government about how the GOV.UK Design System has helped their work.   So yeah, welcome Tim to the podcast.    Tim Paul:  Hi there, how are you doing?   Laura Stevens: Thanks for coming on today. And could you tell us what your job is here at GDS and how you work with the GOV.UK Design System?   Tim Paul:  Yeah so I guess my official job title is Head of Interaction Design. But for the last couple of years, I’ve mainly been kind of doing that as a Product Manager really for the Design System. So that’s a thing that we kind of kicked off a couple of years ago and we’ve managed to build a team around that, and develop a suite of products. We launched those back in summer of 2018 and yeah, I’ve been product managing that and working with the team closely ever since.   Laura Stevens:  So the Design System was launched back in July 2018. But what is the Design System made up of?   Tim Paul:  So it’s essentially a suite of 3 different products. So you’ve got the Design System itself, which is basically a website with guidance and coded examples for designers and frontend developers to use to design and prototype and build public services. So that’s the first thing.   And then there’s a thing we call the GOV.UK Prototype Kit, and that’s a piece of software that designers in particular can download and install, and they can use it to rapidly create very high fidelity prototypes that they can take into user research. And they can test out ideas before their, their team commits to building anything. So they can find out what the right thing to build is.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul:  And then the third thing, which underpins both of those, is a thing we call GOV.UK Frontend. And that’s essentially a frontend framework, so it’s all the Javascript and the CSS [Cascading Style Sheets] wrapped up into a nice package that developers can install into their projects. And so the Prototype Kit and the Design System both use GOV.UK Frontend and that means that designers and developers are both drawing from the same kind of library of components and patterns.    Laura Stevens:  I heard you say before that you think of the Design System also as a service as well, what do you mean by that?   Tim Paul:  Yes. So as well as the 3 products that we provide, we also offer support and training. We’ve helped facilitate contributions to the design system and we’ve run community events and we have regular hangouts with our community of users and contributors. So we really think of the whole thing together as being an actual service, and we have you know, a multidisciplinary team to support both the products and that service.    Laura Stevens:  And when you were talking about the different parts of the GOV.UK Design System, for people who are listening and don’t know what a component is or a pattern or a style. Could you explain what those things are please?    Tim Paul:  Yeah, ok, I’ll have a go.   So when we first started out - figuring out how to make this thing, we did a lot of thinking about what were the things that were going to be inside the Design System. There’s no really established language for talking about this stuff. Although design systems as an idea are fairly well established now.    So in the end we settled on 3 definitions. And so we have what we call styles. And they’re the really low level building blocks that everything else is made out of. So it’s things like colour palettes and how your typography works and how your page layouts work and your grid system and so on. So those are the styles.    And then one level up from that if you like, we have things that we call components. And so components are chunks of user interface, UI. So they’re visible things that you can compose onto a webpage and that, and, and that makes your service. So it’s things like drop-down lists and tables and navigation and headers and footers. And all our components are built using code, the code that we provide in GOV.UK Frontend. And so that’s what a component is.   And finally one level up from that we have things that we call patterns, and patterns are a little bit more abstract. They’re centred around common needs that users of public services have. So for example, lots of public services require that people enter information about themselves like their name or their address and so on, and so we have design patterns which explain the best most usable way that we’ve found, to ask users for that kind of information.    And, we have even higher level design patterns so for example, it’s quite common that a public service has eligibility requirements that, that, that users must meet if they are able to use that service. And so we have a pattern for example, which explains how best to help users understand whether or not they can use your service, so that they don’t waste time trying to apply for a benefit or something that they don’t actually meet the requirements for.   Laura Stevens: And so now I feel like I, I know what it’s made up of, I know what those words mean. But why are design systems good for government? And in a previous presentation I found in the Google Drive in my research, you said the national motto of design system teams is ‘efficiency, consistency and usability’   Tim Paul: Oh yeah, I did say that didn’t I?   Laura Stevens: Would, is that why they’re good or have you changed your mind?    Tim Paul: I guess, no that’s almost been one of the most stable beliefs that we’ve held throughout the whole kind of time we’ve been developing these resources. There, there do seem to be 3 pretty stable fundamental user needs that things like design systems are good at meeting. And, and that’s that public services needs to be efficiently built, we don’t want our tax payers’ money to be wasted in people like reinventing the wheel up and down the country in different teams.   They need to be of a high quality. So they need to be really accessible and usable. And they need to be consistent with each other. So one of the big reasons that we made GOV.UK in the first place was to try and create a single unified consistent user experience for all government services because that helps people to be familiar with those services, which means that it makes them more usable. But it also kind of fosters trust because it’s much easier to recognise when you’re using a legitimate government service if they all look the same.    And the way that design systems help with those things is that you have this common suite of components and patterns that are ready made, pre-built, they’ve already been tested for things like usability and accessibility. And so that lifts up the quality because people are re-using existing things, it means that they’re not developing them themselves so that makes teams more efficient and productive. And again because they’re re-using the same suite of components and patterns, it means that different services made by different teams in different parts of the country in different departments, are all consistent with each other.   Laura Stevens: And I think that’s a point that I wanted to pick up on, is because I think as a user coming to GOV.UK, it looks like it’s just one big website.   Tim Paul: Yeah.   Laura Stevens: But it’s actually being managed, and being delivered simultaneously, by different teams up and down the UK.    Tim Paul: Yes. So like you say GOV.UK presents as this single, quite large website that’s full of different services and information and that’s entirely intentional, that was always the vision for GOV.UK. But we, anybody who’s worked on it knows that under the hood, it’s hundreds and hundreds of separate websites and they're owned and managed by different teams in different departments up and down the country. There is no single tech stack for the public sector or for government, there’s hundreds and hundreds of different ones and we don’t try to control what that stack should be.    And so the challenge that we’ve always faced is like how do we let all of those teams work pretty much independently of each other, but deliver something which is coherent and consistent and feels like a single user experience. And this is, this is what design systems are really good at because they, they provide this centralised resource that all teams can draw upon and contribute back to.    So not every organisation, or large organisation, requires a design system necessarily but I think government is maybe almost the best example of an organisation that can benefit from, from a tool and a service like this.   Laura Stevens: So yeah, we’ve got GOV.UK as this, appearing as one site but actually being operated by lots and lots of different teams up and down the country. So is that who’s using the Design System, all these different service teams?   Tim Paul: Yeah, so we think that most users of the Design System are probably designers or developers working in, on, in services teams in different departments up and down the country. And we’ve tried lots of different ways to measure usage, it’s important that we know who’s using our service and how and what problems they might be facing, so that we can improve the service for them.   So one thing we have looked at in the past is, is web traffic. That’s just visitors to the Design System website. And that’s quite useful for showing month on month growth. I think since we launched, we’ve grown the number of visitors to the site by about 250%.    Laura Stevens: So impressive figures.   Tim Paul: Yeah, yeah! It’s, we’re happy with that.   Laura Stevens: I wanted to ask about the community element of the Design System. So people are able to contribute their own patterns and how, so in terms of the number of patterns or number of components now, are most of them done in GDS or do, are they generally done from people who have contributed? How does that work?    Tim Paul: Yeah. So from the outset really, we wanted to make sure that what we built was owned by the community of designers and developers in government, and was easy to contribute back to. And there’s a couple of reasons for that. One is that we’re, GDS is at the centre of government and that’s really helpful as a way to kind of propagate out best practice and so on, but it does mean that we’re kind of one step removed from the actual end users of citizen facing services and staff systems and so on. It’s really the teams in the other departments that are closest to those users. And so we really rely on them to feedback into the Design System about, about whether components or patterns are working or not. Maybe they’ve found ways to improve upon them, maybe they have ideas for brand new components and patterns that, that we don’t realise are needed. And so like I say, from the very beginning we were trying to figure out ways to, to kind of foster a community of collaboration and contributors.    And so we initially populated the Design System with maybe about 30 or 40 components and patterns that we already knew were needed by government. Some of those we brought in from our previous design tools.    Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul: But since then we’ve had about 18 new components and patterns published over the last year and a bit. And I think of those 18, about 13 of them have been external contributions. So things that have been built by people in service teams somewhere else in government, from MoJ [Ministry of Justice] or DWP [Department for Work and Pensions] or HMRC [HM Revenue and Customs] and so on, and then contributed back to the Design System.    And so we from kind of experience with our previous tools, our legacy products, that contribution is difficult and it certainly doesn't happen for free and it doesn't happen at all unless you do a lot of work to facilitate it and so on. So we put a lot of effort into developing the necessary processes and the governance and the assurance so that when people made a contribution, they knew what to expect and they knew the criteria that they needed to meet and that there were people available to support that contribution. And then other people who are available to kind of assure the quality.    So what we’re hoping is this, by this, by making this process really open, it kind of encourages trust in what we’re doing, and it means that the work that we’re publishing isn’t biased, in favour of any one department and so on. And that it, and that it actually reflects the needs of teams in government.   Laura Stevens: So how does it make you feel having so many patterns and contr-and components now being able to be contributed? Because, this, this hard work of making it decentralised, making it open is working.   Tim Paul: It, I think it is working, I think we’ve learnt a lot along the way. We’ve certainly learned that it’s harder than we thought it would be. I mean we thought it would be hard, but it’s even harder than we thought it would be. I think perhaps we were tempted to think in the early days that contribution was like a shortcut to scaling.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul: That like by opening our doors and letting people contribute, we could grow rapidly and it would like solve all our problems that way. And actually over the last year or so, I think what we’ve realised is that facilitating and assuring contributions is often as much work as doing the work yourself. We should probably have realised that at the time. And so I think it does let us scale but not to the extent that perhaps we thought it would.   So yeah, we think that aside from scaling, there are other real concrete benefits to, and I’m encouraging contribution on one of those, is that when people make successful contributions to the Design System, they tend to be pretty strong advocates so they almost act as like people doing engagement in departments on our behalf.   But also, and perhaps more importantly, the more people from service teams in other departments make contributions to the Design System, the more representative the Design System is of what those teams need. And so it just really helps us make sure that our product is actually genuinely meeting the needs of our users.    If we were doing all the work ourselves in the centre, then, then there’d be a really strong risk that what we were producing was only really meeting the needs of the teams that we were closest to.    Laura Stevens: And I think that leads very nicely on. Because we’re now going to hear a clip from somebody who uses the Design System who isn’t from GDS.   Tim Paul: Ah.   Laura Stevens: It’s from Adam Silver, who previously worked at the Ministry for Justice, or MoJ Digital. So yeah and MoJ is the second largest of the 24 ministerial departments, so it’s a big department.   Tim Paul: Yeah.   Laura Stevens: And yeah, he’s going to talk about using the GOV.UK Design System and also about the MoJ specific Design System as well.    Adam Silver: I’m Adam Silver, I’m an Interaction Designer working at the Department for Education, and previously I’ve worked at MoJ Digital and HMCTS [HM Courts & Tribunals Service] as well.   Laura Stevens: Could I talk to you about your work with the GOV.UK Design System on the service claim for the cost of a child’s funeral, which is a highly emotional service and also one that had to be delivered at pace in 6 weeks in fact. So how did having this centralised system help you in that?   Adam Silver: Yeah so we used the MoJ form builder, which is a tool that lets you create and deploy digital forms live, live to a URL without spinning up your own dev team. And under the hood, that form builder uses all of the components and patterns of from the GOV.UK design system. So that meant we didn’t have to spend a whole load of time thinking about text boxes, radio buttons and all of, all of the good stuff that’s already been solved brilliantly. And we could just focus on the specific needs of our service, and filling in the gaps where the GOV.UK Design System didn’t have a solution for that.   Laura Stevens:  And so in that way, was it saving you time, was it saving you hours of work, what was it helping you with?   Adam Silver: Yeah, it saved, saved a lot of time. Because instead of focusing on all those things we could focus on just the needs of our service. So for example, we needed to think about how to ask users for their bank details because we needed to make a payment for them for their claim. And we also focused on things like how to upload files because they had to provide evidence for their claim by uploading copies of their receipts. And those, those 2 particular components and patterns aren’t covered really in the GOV.UK Design System. So that’s where we could really focus our attention.   And the other thing was that when we were doing an accessibility audit before we launched, we could focus most of our attention on the new patterns that we knew might not be up to the level of quality, or level of accessibility, that all of the other components that, like the text boxes and radio buttons in the GOV.UK Design System.    Just that it’s so, so real, it’s just so good. Just the quality of the guidance, the quality of the patterns, the components themselves is excellent. It plays really nicely into the prototype kit. And when I have worked on department specific design systems, it plays nicely with those ‘cause. So we’ve, we’ve... At HMCTS and MoJ Digital, we had our own department design systems and we had to extend and build on top of the GOV.UK Design System. So that was, that was another really good thing.    Laura Stevens:  Could you sort of speak then to how important having this centralised GOV.UK design system is to different departments across government?   Adam Silver:  Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean we have several services at MoJ that were asking people for their bank details. And during our research there are many many government departments that have many many services of their own that are also asking for their bank details. So there is a lot of duplication of effort there and a lot of inconsistency between them. Not, not major inconsistency but little inconsistencies and those can, those things can, can add up to creating a less than ideal, tricky user experience.    So having that centralised and standardised in GOV.UK Design System adds a tremendous amount of value along with everything else that is centralised in, in the system.   Laura Stevens: How does the community behind the design system help you in your work?   Adam Silver: Yeah, so well, that’s, it’s majorly helpful. It’s one of my favourite things about working in gov [government] actually, is, is the huge design community who are just willing to, to help. On, on Slack, there’s like thousands of people on there and they’ve, there’s always somebody that’s either come across your exact problem or they’ve come across something similar and can help out.   And then the backlog itself, or, or the more specific help around the design system, I mean the team are real-super friendly. You get to know them individually, they’re always there to, to help. And having someone dedicated on support each, each day on Slack is, is massively massively helpful, knowing that you can go to one place to get help is, yeah, I can’t, I can’t just, I can’t commend it enough really. It’s super valuable to me and it’s, I know that it’s been super valuable to other people I’ve worked with as well.    The community backlog is really good because if there isn’t something in the design system then you know that there’s going to be...well there’s a very very good chance that somebody has put their own designs into the backlog. Just some screenshots, just some explanation and then some discussion. And that, that will get you going so you don’t have to start, you’re never, you’re never really starting something from scratch because somebody has always done something. And somebody, sorry. Sometimes somebody has done more than something. There’s, there's a lot of contributions on some of the backlog tickets as well.   Laura Stevens:  So Kellie Matheson, who works at MoJ Digital, also spoke at Services Week 2020 about having two Design Systems and working with that. How do you, how, what’s been your experience of using two design systems at once?   Adam Silver: So it’s not, it’s not the ideal situation. It’s because, the reason why I think design systems appear in departments is, is because, well for 2 reasons. One is that GOV.UK Design System just can’t go fast enough in accepting contributions which is kind of what I was talking about earlier. They’re just not resourced enough I don’t think. It takes a lot of effort to build out a component.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Adam Silver:  So that, that’s one reason where a department could move a little bit faster. Quality might be a tad lower but they can move a bit faster. Because they’re not worrying about the needs of the whole of government, they’re just worrying about the needs of their department of the needs of a programme within a department, sometimes that’s the case. And the other reason is because there are literally department specific patterns. But I see it as a temporary solution while, until the GOV.UK Design System can pull those patterns in.    Laura Stevens: And you, on your blog post, you also contributed a pattern along with your colleagues Amanda Kerry and Gemma Hutley, what was that pattern?   Adam Silver:  That was how to ask users for their bank details. So as part of the, as part of the Child Funeral Fund service that we were designing, the main, the main point was that the user is claiming back the costs. So to do that they need to provide their bank details and that way we can, during the claims process, make that payment to them.    Laura Stevens: And what was it like to contribute your own pattern to that, or your team's pattern to that?   Adam Silver: The reason why I wanted to contribute the bank details pattern was because while we were designing the service, there was no actual pattern existing for the bank details. And we looked in the backlog and we talked to people across government and in our own department as well, and there was no, there was no solid example of how to, how to ask for it. There was lots of different good examples but there was no one way. So that’s something that we had to tackle during the 6 week period.    And so it would have been a real, it would have saved us a lot of time if that did, if that pattern was part of the GOV.UK Design System. So we thought ok well look, we’ve learnt quite a bit about it by searching around what other people have done, and we made a decision ourselves for our service. So why don’t we use what we’ve learnt, work a little bit harder and contribute it back.    Laura Stevens: So I’m sitting here with Tim Paul...And so you can ask him anything, what do you ask him?   Adam Silver: Hi Tim, I would ask you how to quantify the value of a design system?   Laura Stevens: So a nice easy question there.    Tim Paul: Yeah, thanks Adam!    Laura Stevens: But I did actually hear there was, I did actually see this was, this was your talk in Services Week 2020, wasn’t it?   Tim Paul: Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, that was really good to hear from him. And yeah. One of the things we’ve always known that we need to do, and any team will need to do, is to somehow quantify the benefits of the thing that you’re delivering. Design systems are no exception. But it is quite hard to do that because of the nature of the service and the products I think. They’re not transactional services, you can’t watch people kind of go through them, people aren’t signed in when they use it and so measuring how many people are using your service and product is tricky enough.   And then quantifying the actual material benefits is also not that easy. It’s all about productivity and that’s quite a hard thing to measure. These aren’t small tasks that can be done in a few minutes where you can, can easily measure how much faster people get. These are tools which help people over the course of days and weeks and months in quite unpredictable and subtle ways.    So we’ve always struggled a little bit. Although I think this quarter we’ve gotten a little bit better at this stuff. And so we were joined by Roxy, who’s a Product Manager in GDS, and she’s really helped us deliver a kind of economic model and, and a business case for how, how much benefit the Design System is, is giving people. And so we did a fair amount of research, we did lots of analysis of things like repos on Github.    And we fed all of this information into an economic model, we worked with an economist called Parri. We, we, we had lots of other data points. Our user researcher Rosie did, at quite short notice, did some really good research where we interviewed around 10 designers and dev-developers from different departments, and we got them to talk about their experience of using our tools. We got them to do the very uncomfortable thing of like trying to, trying to tell us how much more or less productive they were using our tools and not using our tools.   Laura Stevens:Yeah.   Tim Paul: Which is a, it’s a really tough ask. But people did tell us and we got enough data points that we figured taking an average and going with a conservative version of that average was sufficient. And so feeding all of this stuff together, and thinking about how many teams are actually using our products and for how long and so on, we got to a kind of round figure of, we think we’re probably saving the government about £17 million pounds a year right now    And that’s based on the assumption that without the Design System, government would need to spend about that much money to deliver the same services of a similar quality. So yeah.   Laura Stevens: And were you, did you think the figure would be about £17 million or did you...   Tim Paul: Yeah..I don’t know. I guess it was higher than maybe I was expecting.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.    Tim Paul: Yeah. Yeah. But one of the things we’re really keen to do is focus as much as we possibly can on, on the more qualitative benefits of Design Systems.   Laura Stevens: Sure.   Tim Paul: Rather than treating them as a kind of efficiency tool. They definitely do help teams work more productively but what we’re really hoping is those teams use their excess capacity to deliver better services. And so Adam kind of touched on that. Because they don’t have to worry about checkboxes, and radio buttons and headers and footers and making those all accessible and usable, they can spend that time that they’ve saved focusing on the actual service itself, and the content design, and the service design and the policy design and so on. And that’s really where the gains are to be had for individual service teams.   Laura Stevens: Adam also referenced about how there are other individual organisations using their own design systems, they’ve made up their own design systems. Why do you think places have created their own versions?   Tim Paul: There have always been other design resources made by other teams and departments in government, and that should come as no surprise. For the most part these are people with quite similar missions and goals to ourselves.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul: They’re trying to solve the same problems but at the level of their individual programme or department. And so a couple of years ago when we were initiating this work, we made a conscious decision to, to not treat them as rivals or competitors or in some way a symptom of failure. They’re really just people who are trying to solve the same problem.   And so we, r-rather than go around and try and s-shut them down or anything like that, we made friends with these people, these people are now contributors and we try and work closely together with them    Laura Stevens: And not only is the GOV.UK Design System helping in central government, but it’s also being, helping across the public sector in local government and the NHS. And we’re now going to hear from Emma Lewis, from Hackney, about her experience of using the Design System in a local authority.    Emma Lewis: I’m Emma Lewis, I am the Lead Frontend Developer at the London Borough of Hackney.    Laura Stevens:  What is the London Borough of Hackney doing with design systems?   Emma Lewis:  So we have our own Hackney Design System and Hackney Pattern Library, and both of those are based on top of GOV.UK Design System and GOV.UK frontend respoistry. So we have our pattern library is called LHB Frontend. Which is essentially a copy of GOV.UK frontend which also imports GOV.UK frontend and we build on top of that.    So we have a bunch of different components, some of which are basically identical to the GOV.UK components but they have sort Hackney, ‘Hacknified’ styles or small colour changes, spacing tweaks, things like that. We have some components that are actually identical to GOV.UK and some components that are completely new to Hackney because they're more local government focused.   Laura Stevens:  What have been the benefits to you working in local government, for using a central government design system?   Emma Lewis:  I mean it’s been huge. So having all of these things just out of the box sort of we can use, it’s such an enormous time saver. But also having things like we, you know, we know they are accessible. So it means the services that we’re providing to residents and staff are so much better than they would have been otherwise.    Laura Stevens:  And I think a lot of people respond to with the GOV.UK Design System is also that community element of it. Has that helped you as well at the council?   Emma Lewis:  Enormously. There’s no-one else really experienced at frontend development that I work with, and having that community of people who I can ask questions to, is such a positive thing. And likewise I am so grateful for the GOV.UK Design System that it means I want to contribute and I think other people feel like that.    So I’ve contributed a couple of pull requests that are like really really tiny minor changes but feels good to do that. And it’s something that I want to do. And I think you see that with other people in the community who aren’t necessarily working centrally at GDS but have benefited from it so want to contribute something.   Laura Stevens:  Why is having a design system a good thing for local government?   Emma Lewis:  It’s...there are lots of different reasons. The main, the first reason is consistency. So it means that you know, any of our products that use that design system are going to look the same and that means, that’s really good for lots of different reasons. It means we’re not duplicating code in lots of different places. So you know, if something changes we don’t need to update it in loads of different places, there’s just a central place where all of that stuff comes from. And that’s something that developers love.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Emma Lewis:  But also I think accessibility is a huge thing. The time and resourcing that goes into making a design system like GOV.UK, like I’ve never seen the amount of effort that goes into a component be put into that kind of thing outside of a design system.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Emma Lewis:  And so making sure that it is accessible means that it’s usable by all of our residents and that’s really important. And we, one of our missions at Hackney is to create digital services that are so good that people prefer to use them.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Emma Lewis:  And in order to do that, they need to be available to work for everyone and that’s like incredibly important.   Laura Stevens:  So this is a bit of a, like a retrospective question. What do you wish you knew, or to anybody who is listening from a local authority, from a local borough, before you started creating the Hackney Pattern Library?   Emma Lewis:  I think 2 things that spring to mind. One of which is how important your decisions are when you start doing something like that. So I think I hadn’t appreciated how difficult it can be to change things down the line. And this is something that...so Nick [Colley] and Hanna [Laasko] who work on GOV.UK frontend actually we’re really kind and came into Hackney to talk to us about the design system. And they were talking about how hard it is, or how bad it is to make breaking changes.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Emma Lewis:  So you know, changes to the design system or pattern library that are going to break things for users of the older versions. And that’s something that I wasn't, I hadn’t really thought about much until that conversation. And now, we’re sort of 6 months into our first version of our pattern library, and I’m starting to see, ‘oh I wish I’d done that differently’. And you know really feeling empowered to take the time at the beginning and think about those considerations about how you’re doing something and whether it is the right thing and what possible use cases there might be down the line, can be really helpful.   Laura Stevens:  So how, what are people using it, what sort of stage are you at?   Emma Lewis:  So I’m doing some work at the moment with our mapping team, who create all sorts of maps for residents and for staff to look at, from things like where water fountains are, are in the borough to planning applications and all sorts of different things. And we’re coming up with, I suppose sort, it’s sort of similar to a design system in a way, we’re trying to come up with this sort of map template that we can use to show all different kinds of data. And I was just showing them really quickly yesterday how to use the design system to put a header and footer on the page, and their faces were just like lit up. It was so exciting that this was suddenly all available to them.    Like using the GOV.UK design system has been an incredible time saver. Like I can’t, we wouldn’t have a pattern library now if we’d had to build everything from scratch. It just. We have so many different projects on and we don’t have the people to build something like that, and by having that, it’s mean that, not only that we can use it on projects going forward, but we’re also massively reducing the amount of time it takes to build all those individual projects as well. So it’s been, it’s just been enormous in terms of the time it saved and like I said, the community around it.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Emma Lewis:  The support that’s been provided with it.    Tim Paul: That was really really nice to hear that. It’s so, so gratifying I think to all of us on the team when other people reuse our work.    Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul: It’s one of the best things about working in government and in the public sector is that we can be happy about the fact that people are stealing our work. In fact we kind of strongly encourage it. So yeah, that’s, that’s great. It’s, it’s doing exactly what we hoped it would do.    So we’ve known for quite a while there’s huge potential beyond central government for, for the work that we’re doing, not just ourselves but alongside our contributors, to, to benefit local government and even as far as international governments. We’ve, we’ve got I think we know about 5 different local authorities which are in some way using GOV.UK Frontend, and we’ve got a couple of other governments from other countries who are using our work as well. So this is really really good.   Laura Stevens: And in both those clips, both Emma and Adam, they both spoke about accessibility and how having it tested to the level AA of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines or WCAG.    Tim Paul: Yes.   Laura Stevens: Is that right?   Tim Paul: That’s correct, yeah.    So this is, this has turned out to be a huge driver I think for adoption of the Design System because there this standard called the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, it’s been around for a while, it’s in version 2.1 now. But the thing that has changed recently is that meeting level double A of that standard has now become an actual requirement, not just of central government services but the whole of the public sector by this September.    And so suddenly there’s a real strong need by teams everywhere to make their services fully accessible. And that’s pretty difficult. There’s lots you can do it make it easier like building in accessibility from the very beginning is probably the best way you can make your life easier here. Retrofitting accessibility is, is always a terrible experience for everybody.    But it turns out that making even simple things like buttons fully accessible across the full range of assistive technologies, devices and browsers, is actually pretty involved, difficult work. You’ve got lots of testing to do, you’ve got, the state of assistive technologies at the moment is still probably not as mature as it could be, which means there are lots of weird little bugs and kinks.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul: Funny little idiosyncrasies across all the different technology stacks. And so the work that we do in the centre is to do all of that testing and iron out all of those bugs and figure out how to make these things work across all of the assistive techs that we know that people use. And that level of work, that depth of work is probably not a thing that an individual service team could or should be spending its time doing. They’ve got the full service to worry about and they really shouldn’t be spending the amount of time that we can spend on, on making low level components fully accessible.    So it’s one of the things I’m happiest about because it’s something that we can really contribute to.   Laura Stevens: And in, you mentioned as well that we’re not only helping central government, local, NHS but we’re also going abroad as well. And in March 2019, the New Zealand Digital Service published a blog about how they used the GOV.UK Design System to help create their own. So, and they had a quote in there saying: “We decided not to reinvent the wheel so we’re building on the GOV.UK Design System, a system with years of development. It’s a mature and proven Design System with full rigour and accessibility and testing”. So what does having that sort of reach and international impact feel like for you and the team here at GDS?   Tim Paul: It’s really nice, it’s kind of flattering. Yeah it also feels a little bit scary.   I think Emma alluded to the issue of having dependencies and breaking changes and things like design systems. And that’s a thing that we’ve experienced as well. So if you’re working on a service team in an agile environment, then the idea that you can iterate rapidly and fail fast and all of that, it’s great, it works really well. It doesn’t quite translate when you’re building a central code resource because if you’re iterating rapidly, if you’re failing fast, if you’re making lots of breaking changes, then you’re disrupting the work of everybody who’s relying on your code base. And so we end up being a lot more conservative, we end up moving slower and at a much measured kind of careful pace. And that’s because we are intensely aware that everybody using our tools is going to be disrupted by any breaking changes we make.   And so when we hear that you know, another country or local government authority is using our service, it’s really really good but it really hammers home to us how careful we have to be not to break things for them as well.   Laura Stevens: Do you think there’s a way of fixing that? Or is that just an inherent problem with having a central design system?   Tim Paul: I think probably the way to address that challenge is to not try to create some uber design system for the world, which would be the egotistical response to that challenge.    You know the internet is supposed to be made up of many parts loosely coupled, and that’s what we should be trying to do here. So making sure that people can use our tools as the foundation for the things they need, and that we have nice productive feedback mechanisms between, between those. That’s probably the right way to approach this.   Laura Stevens: Is there anything where you’ve seen the Design System used in a way that you just never expected it to be used, or it popped up somewhere that you...   Tim Paul:  We’re, we’re sometimes asked about doesn’t, don’t, don’t these products make it really easy to make fake versions of GOV.UK, which is a really valid question. And the answer is yes, they do. They make it easy for anybody to make things look like GOV.UK. But to be honest if your motivations are to trick people, then it’s always been pretty easy to make fake versions of a website.    Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Tim Paul: So we’re not making it that much easier for the scammers, but we’re making it a lot easier for the service teams who are building legitimate services. But yes, every now and then we see, we see a dodgy looking GOV.UK site and we see our own code in there, and that’s kind of weird but you know there’s a whole bit of GDS which is dedicated to spotting that stuff and getting it taken down so.   Laura Stevens: So thank you so much to Tim to coming on today and also to Emma and to Adam for talking about the GOV.UK Design System. And you can listen to all the episodes of the Government Digital Service Podcast on Apple Music, Spotify and all other major podcast platforms. And you can read the transcript of Podbean.  So thank you again and goodbye.   Tim Paul: Thank you.

01:14 - Chris’s Superpower: His Ability to Sleep. 01:50 - Why Chris Wants To Talk About Web Accessibility * Top 3 Priorities When Building on the Web * Accessibility * Performance * Security 02:45 - Whose Responsibility Is It To Build An Accessible Web? * Anyone Building On The Web * Dominos’ Lawsuit (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-dominos-pizza/u-s-supreme-court-rejects-dominos-bid-to-avoid-disabilities-suit-idUSKBN1WM1P1) * WCAG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines) 07:38 - How To Inform And Get Colleagues On Board With Accessibility * Understanding The Clientele * Have Numbers To Back It Up 11:45 - Image Descriptions * Alt Attributes * Twitter Adds Alt Text For .gifs 16:34 - Companies Deal With Accessibility Lawsuits 19:07 - Where To Start Making Changes * Only Shipping One Experience That Works For Everybody * Make Sure You Are Using Semantic Markup * Color Contrast * Make Sure There Are Alt Attributes On Your Images 27:50 - What Can Developers Do Today To Make Changes * Start With An Audit * Compare To Competitors 31:06 - Work Collaboratively With The Designers 34:15 - How To Be Accessible For Various Disabilities * Hearing * Cognitive * Physical 37:10 - Accessibility Can Benefit Everyone Reflections: Chris: Accessibility is not a requirement, it is a must. From Marcy Sutton: Every little bit of accessibility you contribute is so necessary and so needed. Carina: The concrete useful examples such as audits are beneficial to business people. Jacob: Wants to get better at using a screen reader to gain empathy about what the right thing is to do. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks! Special Guest: Chris DeMars.

  Laura Stevens: Hello, and welcome to the Government Digital Service podcast, and the first one of the decade. My name is Laura Stevens and for regular listeners of the podcast, I now have a new job title as Creative Content Producer here at GDS.   And for the first podcast of 2020 we’re going to be speaking about accessibility. Everybody has to interact with government, people cannot shop around and go to different providers so there’s an obligation for government to make its services as accessible as possible. At GDS accessibility is considered in everything we do. It’s one of our design principles, we publish accessibility guidance on GOV.UK and we want to make sure there are no barriers preventing someone from using something.   And to tell us more about accessibility at GDS, I have Rianna Fry and Chris Heathcote. Please can you both introduce yourselves and what you do here at GDS. So Rianna first.   Rianna Fry:  Yeah, so I’m Rianna and I am a Senior Campaign Manager here at GDS. So my job is helping to tell more people about all the great stuff that GDS does. And one of the main things at the moment is accessibility.    Laura Stevens:  And Chris?   Chris Heathcote:  Hi, I’m Chris Heathcote, I’m a Product Manager and Designer at GDS. So I’m running the team that will be monitoring websites for accessibility going forward.   Laura Stevens:  Yes, and there’ll be more on that later in the podcast.   So I just thought a good place to start, because as I mentioned GDS has to design for everyone, so to give a sort of sense of the needs of the population we’re designing for I have a few statements for you both. And I’m going to ask you whether they’re true or false.    So true or false, 12 million people in the UK have some kind of hearing loss.   Rianna Fry:  True.   Chris Heathcote:  That sounds true.   Laura Stevens:  It is true. Second statement. 6.4 million people in the UK have dyslexia.    Chris Heathcote:  That sounds true as well.   Rianna Fry:  Yeah, it does.   Laura Stevens:  It is true as well. And thirdly, 2 million people in the UK have significant sight loss.    Rianna Fry: True.    Chris Heathcote: At least 2 million I would have thought, yes.   Laura Stevens: Yes. You are correct, they’re all true.   Rianna Fry: Do we, do we win something?   Laura Stevens: I’m afraid I didn’t bring a prize and now I’m being shamed, I’m sorry.    Rianna Fry:  Right, OK. Sorry.   Laura Stevens:  But all these stats are from the GDS accessibility empathy lab. And this is a space at GDS which helps raise awareness about accessibility, and also is an assistive technology testing space. And there’s another poster in the lab that says when you design services, you need to think about permanent, temporary and situational accessibility needs.    What does that mean?   Rianna Fry:  So I think I’ll touch on situational accessibility needs. So for me that was one of the most sort of light bulb moments when I came to work on this project with Chris and the rest of the team. So often when we talk about accessibility, I think a lot people naturally think about disabilities that people might have, like motor disabilities or sight impairments for example.    But obviously at some point, they’re, we’re in situations that prevent us from being able to use digital services, perhaps in the way that they’re initially intended. So if you just think about social media. So my background is in digital marketing so thinking about videos. Obviously captions are massive and subtitles for videos because when you’re on the tube, you can’t always hear what you’re listening to.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  So thinking about those kind of things was really sort of key for me, you know. When we build things or create content, we want as many people to see and use these things as possible. So considering all the factors that may prevent people from using something in one way, I think that’s what it’s about.   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah, I mean at GDS we’ve always considered that wherever there is a web browser people will try and use that to interact with government.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Chris Heathcote:  So right from the start, we saw people doing passport applications on their PlayStations. And we’ve seen…   Laura Stevens: Really?   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah. So we’ve seen mobiles, you know are now more than 50% of traffic often. And so we, what we, you know accessibility is just one way to make sure that people can always use the services and the content that we provide.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah I think definitely what you’re saying about mobiles as well. Because I looked up Matt Hobbs, who’s the Head of Frontend Development at GDS, tweeted about the November 2019 GOV.UK stats, and mobile was over 50%. It was 52.86%.    Rianna Fry: Absolutely, yeah.   Laura Stevens: And I guess part of this is also thinking like why is it particularly important that government is a leader in accessible services. Like what, why is that so important?   Chris Heathcote:  I mean as you said at the beginning, you know you don’t choose to use government, you have to use government. So you can’t go anywhere else. So it’s, it’s our obligation to make sure that, that everything is accessible to everyone. And it does have to be everyone, and especially those with disabilities, or needing to use assistive technology, tend to have to interact with government more.    So we do have an obligation for that.   Rianna Fry:  And I think if you think about it, these are public services. They’re online public services so they need to be able to use, be used by the public not exclusive groups. And I think that’s what it's all about.    Laura Stevens:  And sort of on that, or leading on from that, I wanted us to talk about GDS as leaders in digital accessibility. So at GDS, we’ve, we set up the cross-government accessibility community, the Head of Accessibility for government sits at GDS and as mentioned, it’s one of our design principles. So we want to design for everyone.    And from your work here at GDS, do you have any sort of examples of where GDS has led in accessibility? So for instance you were talking there about assistive technology, and I know that GOV.UK, there’s a lot of work done on GOV.UK to make sure that it works with assistive technology.   Chris Heathcote:  Yes, I mean especially as sort of the standards for accessibility have changed over the last 7, 8 years that GDS has existed. We’ve always made sure that our code works on everything and for all assistive technology. And also we’ve made you know, now with the [GOV.UK] Design System made it possible for the, all services in government to take that and so they don’t have to do the work as well.    Laura Stevens:  So how can people use the Design System, if they’re listening and they don’t quite know what the Design System is. Can you explain it a bit please?   Chris Heathcote:  Yes. So I mean if you go to the GOV.UK Design System site, it provides basically all the code you need to make something look and feel like GOV.UK. You know we’ve always said that GOV.UK is a single domain for government, and that services in central government should look and feel like GOV.UK and be linked from GOV.UK.   And if you use our code, it means you get all the usability and accessibility benefits that we’ve spent a lot of time and effort to make sure work really well. And you get that basically for free.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah, and it’s also I guess you’re sharing the, as you were just talking about, you’re sharing the hard work. So if you’re a smaller organisation or you don’t have that sort of technical capability, you’re saying it’s already there. We can, you can just go to the...   Chris Heathcote:  Yes, we saw that every, basically every service in government was spending 6 months or more, you know writing code that’s basically the same.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Chris Heathcote:  That’s why the Design System exists, and is so popular.    Laura Stevens:  And have you seen any sort of examples of…   Rianna Fry:  Well I think, I think you mentioned this near the beginning as well, the accessibility empathy lab.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  So that’s sort of a space for people to really experience some of the impairments that people may have, and really put them in that space. And I think that really helps to bring things to life. Because it’s really easy to forget or not consider what some needs might be. And I’ve been along to some of the tours there and it’s, it’s great to see people in all different roles coming from all different kinds of organisations sort of using the different personas that are in that lab, to think differently about how web pages should be built.   And also even you know, the words that we use. And I think that sort of in line with what Chris was saying, there’s also the, the style guide. Because we often forget as a communicator, plain English is really important, that’s like a basic thing.   Laura Stevens:  Yes.   Rianna Fry:  That most people know about and practice, but don’t necessarily consider as part of accessibility. And I know when I worked at the council we used the GOV.UK Style Guide as like the basis because we knew that there was a lot of research and it’s ongoing.   And also like as Chris said, you know it’s not just people within GDS that inform this work. It’s across government and also some of the wider public sector. There’s great communities that are sharing really great work in this space, and that all feeds in.    Laura Stevens: No I think that’s really interesting as well what you’re saying because you came from a local government background into central government.    Rianna Fry:  Yeah.   Laura Stevens:  And you were able to use some of those sort of GDS or cross-government tools, and you were able to pick them up and use them. That’s really good.   Rianna Fry: Yeah, absolutely yeah.    Laura Stevens:  And, and you mentioned there that a lot of the work in accessibility it’s not, it’s not, even though a lot of it sits at GDS, it’s contributed to by people across the accessibility community across government.    We’ve got a cross-government accessibility community, which has more than 1,200 people in the Google group. And are you involved in the community Chris or?   Chris Heathcote:  Well I’m on the email..   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Chris Heathcote:  And I will, and I respond to questions about the accessibility monitoring. Yeah, I mean it’s I think, because accessibility cuts across so many different jobs in government, so it isn’t just the people that, that do accessibility auditing day in and day out and,but we now have those across government.    But you know, all frontend developers, all designers, all user researchers tend to need to know something about accessibility, and have questions and even though they’re not you know, full time professionals in this, the community’s there to help everyone understand what we’re looking for and how to consider accessibility in everything they do.   Laura Stevens:  And do you think that’s sort of been a shift because Rianna was mentioning like how in the lab, you get people of all different job titles in, and that’s sort of shift in making accessibility part of everyone’s job, not just people who have accessibility in their job title. Like neither of you 2 have accessibility in job title for instance.   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah. I mean I think that’s been a big change like it was with design before and user research. It isn’t just a separate specialist, even though we need the specialists to you know, do the work.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah yeah, of course.   Chris Heathcote:  It’s something that everyone has to consider as they do their job. So especially like frontend developers, we expect them to be testing their code for accessibility at, just as they are doing it. Which means that when they do do an audit and a specialist comes in and looks at the site, there shouldn’t be any surprises.   Rianna Fry:  And I think that’s one of the, so Richard Morton, who’s the Interim Head of Accessibility across government, that’s one of the things that he says, is that actually the ambition for his role is that there won’t, in the future, need to be specialists necessarily because everybody has a, a level of understanding about it.    Obviously that’s a long way off.     Laura Stevens:  And also I guess he doesn’t want to talk himself out of a job.   Rianna Fry:  Yeah! Exact--and that I mean, he does follow it up with that.   But I think, I think that’s what’s really nice about the community is that you have got people, so for example the designer that I’ve worked on, Charlotte, with the campaign for accessibility.    Laura Stevens:  Is this Charlotte Downs?   Rianna Fry:  Charlotte Downs, yeah. So since she’s been working that, she’s just sort of, her mind has been blown by all this information that’s out there.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  And she’s now a go to person with GDS for design - accessible design - particularly around PDFs. And I think that’s the thing, sort of as you sort of get into it, it’s really easy to become really passionate about accessibility because it’s all about doing the right thing. And I think particularly within GDS, and actually most digital based roles I would say, it’s all about users. And accessibility, that’s what it’s all about.    Laura Stevens:  I’ve heard people refer to the PDF mountain in government. What does that mean and why is that related to accessibility?   Chris Heathcote:  I mean right from the start of GOV.UK, we saw that central government alone was publishing pretty much everything as PDFs. And PDFs vary in quality and vary in accessibility as well. It is possible to make more accessible PDFs. But generally we’ve always said things should be webpages, content should be on webpages and in HTML. But, and in central government we’ve been moderately successful in that. There’s still a lot of PDFs being published but we’ve reduced that, and especially in services, they tend not to use PDFs anymore.   So I think legislation is a good time for, for all public sector organisations to reflect on that and see how they can change some of their processes and how they publish information.   Laura Stevens:  So changing a mountain into a molehill.   Chris Heathcote:  Yes. I mean we, I think you know there will always be some PDFs for certain reasons but the number of PDFs being published should go down.   Rianna Fry:  So just thinking about stuff like that, as Chris says, changing processes. Is there a reason why we have to have this as a PDF format, why can’t it be HTML? I mean it, the campaign, it, it was the same you know.    How do we make the supporter pack in HTML, it doesn’t look as pretty, which for creative people might be something, like a bone of contention, but ultimately we want people to be able to use it. So creating things and making things available in different formats if you have to have a PDF, is the right thing to do.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah and I think that’s sort of interesting as well with the creative side of things. Because obviously as government though you need to make it’s as accessible as possible and I think GOV.UK has won design awards so it shows that like, accessibility doesn’t mean that like design goes out the window, not at all. Like I think it was Fast Company put us at the top 10 designs of the decades in the 2010s. So..   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah I mean even when we won the Design Museum's Design of the Year award.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Chris Heathcote:  You know we were on, we were called boring.com the next day. But you know we have a lot of designers working here in GDS, and there is an awful lot of design built into it even though it may look a bit plainer than other websites. But that’s because we’re totally focussed on usability and accessibility.   Rianna Fry:  There’s no point having a beautiful website if no-one can use it   Laura Stevens:  I would just sort of, what I would like to sort of talk about is how accessible services help everyone.    For instance we have GOV.UK content that’s now accessible via voice assistance. So I think there’s now more than 13,000 pieces of GOV.UK content that’s available via Google Home or Amazon Alexa. And why is that good for people, like why, why is that good having these sort of pieces anyone can access via voice?   Chris Heathcote:  I mean there’s a lot of people that can’t use a standard computer and a standard web browser. I mean and that, that ranges from having disabilities through to just not understanding how a computer works and not wanting to understand how a computer works.   So being able to access government information if not services yet, just through voice I think is, is really important.   Rianna Fry:  I was just going to say, personally as well, so a, a relative of mine recently was unwell and lost his sight. And he has an Alexa and so although it was still a difficult transition for him, him still being able to access things as soon as he got home really helped.    Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Rianna Fry: And I think you know like Chris said, not everyone wants to use a computer as well.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah, yeah.   Rianna Fry:  Or if you’re sort of busy and out and about, sort of that situational side of things, it just makes things more accessible and more available for people, which is great. It’s easier right?   Laura Stevens:  Chris, you alluded to this earlier that the sort of regulations have changed since GDS begun. And while accessibility has always been part of GDS’ work, there are new regulations that have come in quite recently, and these regulations mean public sector organisations have a legal duty to make sure their websites and apps meet accessibility requirements.    And can you tell me a bit about them and sort of, what the key dates are with that and…   Chris Heathcote:  Yes. So this is a European-wide initiative that started in 2016. It’s now UK law. And any new websites that a public sector body makes, that's certainly in public, needs to be accessible now. And they should also publish something called an accessibility statement on their website that says how accessible they are and how to get in contact with them if you find any issues with them.   But then the big deadline is 23 September 2020, when all public sector websites, old and new, need to be accessible.   Laura Stevens:  And how is this related to the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, which I called WCAG, but is that the correct way of pronouncing…   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah.   Laura Stevens:  ...that acronym? So yeah, the web--oh sorry.   Chris Heathcote:  So WCAG is a W3C [World Wide Web Consortium] standard about web content accessibility. And it’s been updated pretty recently to version 2.1. And the standard that the legislation and we require is something called double A. So there are 3, 3 levels of accessibility mentioned in the guidelines - A, double A and triple A.    And double A means that there should not be any major blockers to anyone being able to use the website.    Laura Stevens:  Will the regulations apply differently to different parts of the public sector, for instance central government or to schools or to healthcare?    Chris Heathcote:  There are some differences. The legislation makes some exemptions especially, there is partial exemptions for schools and nurseries.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Chris Heathcote:  Although the way it’s written, actually they’re not quite as exempt as you might think.   Laura Stevens:    Chris Heathcote:  Because a lot of people are doing stuff online, and if the online is the only route to them that has to be accessible.    Laura Stevens: Yes.    Chris Heathcote:  But generally the exemptions are, are quite small.    Rianna Fry:  I think what’s really important as well is that, I mean it’s this is sort of easy, easier for me to say I guess because I work in an organisation that really cares about accessibility and already has accessibility built in to a lot of the ways of working. But I think for me it’s sort of helpful to think about this as an opportunity. So I think this creates a really good excuse to educate people about why that’s important and also now that there’s law behind this...   Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Rianna Fry: that feeds into the Equality Act, and I mean that’s really important. If you’re going to pay to build a website, or spend a load of your time creating content, then you want to make sure that people can access that content or access that, access that service.   Why, why would you want to try and get around that? Because all you’re doing is reducing the amount of people that can access it. So I think you know, although I understand that sometimes there are reasons for that like time. I think this is about behaviour change, and also education, helping people to understand that. If you’re, if you’re opening your service up, you’re reducing costs that may be elsewhere because you’re making your website more efficient and work for people so that they can self-serve.   Laura Stevens:  And so do you think that’s why having an accessibility statement is a really good thing? Because you know how you’re saying this is a way of creating behaviour change. By the process of going through and creating accessibility statement, which is this statement on the website that says, this is why our service is accessible. And it also has to say, if I’m right, this isn’t accessible but this is how we’re working.   Rianna Fry:  Absolutely.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah because GOV.UK has an accessibility statement, doesn’t it?   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah. What we are trying to do is make sites accessible so pub--, so you know getting the information together and publishing an accessibility statement is a really good start to making sure that the website is accessible and remains as accessible as it changes.    Rianna Fry:  I was just going to say you know, I think that shows a commitment to making a change.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  I think it’s unrealistic to expect all websites overnight to be completely accessible, because some of this stuff involves a lot of legacy things.   Laura Stevens:  Yes.   Rianna Fry:  And also PDFs, a lot of PDFs. But this, I, as I understand it, and I’m not an expert so Chris you might correct me on this, but that’s statements about saying you know, these areas aren’t right but this is our plan to fix them. And if you can’t access information here’s who you need to contact to get that.    Laura Stevens:  Yes. And that's an important part, you have that contact.   Rianna Fry:  Absolutely, yeah.    Laura Stevens:  A name or an email address that you can go forward to.   And this actually leads me nicely on, because this was, we chose accessibility in January because there was a loose news hook for the podcast that January is when enforcement and reporting will begin. And this is quite a big job to undertake so Chris could you kind of talk to me about this next bit of your role?   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah so to make sure that people are taking the legislation seriously, in each country in Europe, so it’s not just the UK, there is a monitoring body set up. In the UK it was decided that GDS would host that. And that’s the team I’m setting up at the moment.    So we have an obligation in, in the legislation as well. So we will be monitoring a number of public sector websites. It’s about...by 2023, it’ll be about 2,000 websites a year.   And what we do is most of that will be automated checking using automated accessibility checkers. But we know that that only covers 30 to 40% of accessibility issues and WCAG points. So we’ll be doing a bit of manual checking as well and, and for a certain amount of websites, we have to do a sort of fuller audit that’s more like a traditional accessibility audit.   Laura Stevens:  And this is done on behalf of the Minister for Cabinet Office isn’t it?   Chris Heathcote:  Yes. So yeah, they’re the person that's mentioned in the legislation. And yes, we’ll be reporting to them about what we find.   Laura Stevens:  And when you go through these websites, how do you get back in touch with them, do you create an accessibility report, how does that work?   Chris Heathcote:  So, so what we’re going to do is from the testing that we do, we’ll write a report. We’ll send that to the public sector organisation and start a conversation with them really about do they understand the report, do they see the same issues that we’re seeing, and what they’re going to do to fix them.   And hopefully that’s a constructive conversation and we can provide technical support where needed.   Laura Stevens:  Yeah, and would you also I guess point to some of the stuff on GOV.UK? There’s accessibility guidance there as well. Would you be using that?   Chris Heathcote:  Yeah absolutely. I mean, I mean both, both the stuff that we publish for central government like the Design System and the Service Manual. But also you know we are looking also for resources around the W3C publish and things like training that, that are starting to happen that we can point people to so that you know, they, they can fix the issues as quickly as possible.   Laura Stevens:  Say if a website has been found with accessibility issues, what would be a way of enforcing the findings of a report?   Chris Heathcote:  So we’re working with the Equality and Human Rights Commission in England, Wales and Scotland, and for Northern Ireland it’s the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. They are actually doing the enforcing on accessibility because it, it, falls under the Equality Act, so they’ve been enforcing accessibility for, for a while. And so that’s their role.   However we will be enforcing whether they, the sites have accessibility statements or not because that’s an additional thing on top of the Equality Act.   Laura Stevens:  So you’re gonna be very busy over the next year and onwards from there.   Chris Heathcote:  Yes. I mean it’s never ending. Yes we’re recruiting at the moment - the Audit Team.    Laura Stevens:  Are you giving a plug on the podcast if anyone’s listening and they want to apply?   Chris Heathcote:  Well we will, we, we’ll certainly have some roles opening over the next year.   Laura Stevens:  And how will you find this sample of websites, or do we not know this yet?   Chris Heathcote:  We’ve spent quite a while coming up with a list of what is the public sector and what isn’t.    Laura Stevens: Yes.   Chris Heathcote:  And also what websites they have. There’s another team in GDS called the Domain Management Team, who have also been trying to look at what websites government runs, and what the public sector runs. And they’re more tasked with making sure that the domains remain secure and are being used properly.    But you know this list hasn’t existed before. So we’ve also approached it, we’ve crea--we’ve gathered lots of open data that government publishes around public sector organisations. And we’re using that to create a sort of master list of the public sector that we will then sample against.    Laura Stevens: Rianna you actually mentioned this earlier, and I know you’ve joined GDS relatively recently in the summer of last year. And sometimes I think accessibility can be landed on a person, one person in an organisation, and that it can feel quite overwhelming when suddenly there are regulations that people need to, and they need to learn a lot of knowledge quite quickly, how did you find that when you joined and you were given the accessibility campaign to manage? When you had to learn all this information, what did you find that was helpful or how did you find that process?   Rianna Fry:  Well I think I’ve been really lucky in that I was surrounded by experts at GDS.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  And also there is so much information on GOV.UK. And I mean, that’s not a plug, it’s true. And so like I said before, Charlotte Downs for example, she, when she, when we started working on this together she did a load of research on different things.   Because I mean, even once you know it, even once you’ve been through some training on how to create an accessible document. When you’re knocking together a document, it’s really easy to forget. Like I said, it’s behaviour change. So I think it’s about checking in with other people and asking other people to just check over content.   You know I remember when I first started working on this project and I sent out a survey and I made an assumption that it was accessible and it wasn’t. And that was..   Laura Stevens:  And it was a survey about accessibility?   Rianna Fry: It was, yeah.    Laura Stevens:  Oh, yeah.   Rianna Fry: I mean it was a steep learning curve. Thankfully it was only live for about 2 minutes before I noticed.   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  And me and Richard [Morton] then worked together on some stuff, but I think that’s what it’s about, it’s about asking people to check in. And you know things aren’t always going to be perfect but that’s why it helps to be part of communities so that you’ve kind of got constructive friends   Laura Stevens: Yes.   Rianna Fry:  that can give you constructive feedback on how you can improve what you're doing. So I think, yeah it’s about seeing what’s out there and speaking to people and asking people to, for feedback on what you’re doing.    Laura Stevens:  And I know we mentioned before the communities are very active, the blog posts are very active, but also so you’re running the campaign for accessibility, we’ve had 75,000 visits to the GOV.UK guidance since August 2019. And you’ve also created a campaigns pack, and is that for people, who who’s that for?   Rianna Fry:  So that’s for supporters. So for us, as Chris said this is a massive job, there are so many organisations that need to know about this. And the people that are potentially responsible for managing a public sector website aren’t necessarily in digital roles. They’re not necessarily people that GDS are talking to or aware of.    So if you think about things like GP surgeries for example, they fall into the remit of public sector. Now my GP surgery definitely doesn’t have a digital team. So the, the point of the supporter pack is to try and get especially central government teams onboard, their engagement and communications teams on board and talking to people about the regulations.   So we’re trying to make it easier by bringing that information into one place, which is all the point of the campaign page. So we’ve tried to break it down into 4 steps. So signposting people to guidance that will help them to understand whether or not they’re going to be impacted. Believe it or not, some people aren’t sure whether or not they’re classed as a public sector organisation.   Then secondly deciding how to check the accessibility of their websites. Then making a plan to fix any problems and lastly publishing an accessibility statement, which really summarises the findings and the plans to fix any issues.    Laura Stevens:  And you’re saying there that this is all in one place, where is that place?   Rianna Fry:  So it’s on GOV.UK/accessibility-regulations.   Laura Stevens:  So if, so if I’m from the public sector I can go there and just…   Rianna Fry: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s an open web...   Laura Stevens: Yeah.   Rianna Fry:  ...webpage. And I’m, I mean my information’s on the supporter pack so if there are any campaign people out there that want to talk to me, then I’m more than happy to share any additional resources that we’ve got, that we’re using internally and whatever else.   Laura Stevens:  And do you have any sort of top tips, or from your work you’ve done in sort of starting this work on accessibility. Are there any sort of things where you’ve spoken to other organisations, you’ve been like oh that’s a good thing to share. Any best practice or anything like that?   Chris Heathcote:  I mean I think that, that it isn’t just all..it isn’t just a single thing that people need to do. You know we understand that people have websites and they might need to retrofit some accessibility onto that but it is really about changing processes.    So especially when we talk to people like local authorities, the number of people that publish on the website is quite large and it’s educating them to know how to make good PDFs, how to write well, how to, how generally how accessibility of content works. And making sure there’s a process to make sure that that happens. That needs to be in place as much as actually fixing the website and the technical aspects of accessibility.   Rianna Fry:  And I think education is really important. So I think what helps is to tell, help colleagues across organisations to understand why they need to do certain things.    And I think it helps that people, people have an awareness of the Equality Act, and understand when something is law. So I think that helps and I would say to try and use that to, yeah really educate people and try and get people on board internally.   Laura Stevens:  So as a closing segment I thought it might be nice to ask both of you if there’s something in particular that motivates you to work in accessibility, or if there’s something you’ve come across in your work that’s made a real impact on you, and sort of galvanised you to keep going on this.   Chris Heathcote:  I mean I think we, what we see is when we talk to users, and we talk to users all the time, is it gives people independence. People can do things for themselves, they can self-serve, they can see the content on GOV.UK. And it’s, it’s something that they’ve you know, moving digitally has actually changed people’s lives.    Rianna Fry:  Yeah, I think I’d echo that you know. And it’s important that organisations know about the regulations. So supporting those really hard working digital colleagues that spend a load of time researching what, what works for users, and a load of time trying to tell other people how to, you know why PDFs shouldn’t be used.    So I think for me, that’s really important. And also just you know that lightbulb, seeing that lightbulb moment of people going ‘oh god, yeah we really should be doing this and being able to signpost them to the tools to be able to kind of put it into action.   Laura Stevens:  So thank you to Rianna and thank you to Chris for coming on the podcast today. I hope you’ve enjoyed being on the GDS podcast, a first for both of you.   Chris Heathcote: Yeah. Thanks for having us.    Rianna Fry: Yeah. Thanks for having us. And thank you for choosing accessibility to be your first podcast of the decade.    Laura Stevens:  Well I do.   Rianna Fry:  Not just the year, the decade! I mean it feels like it’s really significant. This is going to be a podcast that people remember.    Laura Stevens:  And so yeah, you can listen to all the episodes of the Government Digital Service podcast on Apple Music, Spotify and all other major podcast platforms. And the transcripts are available on Podbean.    So thank you both again, and goodbye!   Chris Heathcote:  Bye.   Rianna Fry:  Thanks!

IntroAs a website development company, VGM Forbin is always working to create websites that are accessible for all online users. We follow the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) to ensure web access to all users including those who require the use of assistance devices. We’ve recently committed to a Web Accessibility partnership with a company known as AudioEye, that conforms to WCAG guidelines and will aid us in holding ourselves accountable for digital accessibility.What is WCAG Compliance?The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG), created by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), are a set of standards that ensure the internet is a more inclusive and accessible space for everyone. It’s a set of formal guidelines that allows site owners, writers, designers and developers to create accessible web content for website users of all abilities. The guidelines state that digital content must be perceivable, operable, understandable and robust in order to be accessible to all users.This Episode’s guest is the Partner Program Manager at AudioEye, Shenyse Lujan.What is AudioEye?AudioEye was founded in 2005 by a set of brothers, Sean and Nathan Bradley. Nathan was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease. Because of this they began to start thinking about how Nathan's ability to access the internet is going to change over the next 10 or 15 years. They founded AudioEye with the belief that equal access to digital content was the right of everyone. AudioEye is a fully managed end to end accessibility solution whose mission is focused on eradicating all barriers to digital accessibility.How does AudioEye contribute to the accessibility of websites?Utilizes JavaScript that is embedded in the global footer of the website and gives the ability to manipulate the DOM(Document Object Model) and re-mediate errors of accessibility. Some examples of this are adding alternative text to images to help someone who is blind and uses a screen reader, tab focus for someone with motor skill disability who is utilizing the tab key, the ability to pause a carousel image for someone with a cognitive disability, and much more.WCAG and ADA standards are always changing, how does AudioEye stay up to date with those changes and implement them on websites?WCAG is the primary focus of AudioEye so it is always something that is at the forefront of everything they do. They are constantly changing and updating their standards so that their clients’ website is adhering to the latest changes of the law and is accessible for all users.How does AudioEye compare to other similar services available out there?Some companies are only providing the front-end toolbar and web enhancement tools but don’t provide that back-end maintenance to ensure that the website is accessible. Many digital accessibility companies are only pointing out what should be changed but AudioEye is pointing out the issues and also re-mediating them. AudioEye also tests the websites with different devices that are going to be used by people with disabilities. Sites are tested by someone using a screen reader or other assistance devices to ensure that the changes that are made are being tested by the devices that they are meant for.How do Forbin website customers benefit from the partnership with Audioeye?AudioEye works very closely with developers at Forbin when sites are being developed so that from the beginning a site is following WCAG standards and always improving. Forbin has its own website platforms and AudioEye meets quarterly with Forbin developers for training sessions to ensure that the Forbin development team is up to date with all WCAG standards. This ensures that the development team at Forbin is equipped with the right tools to make the best improvements for web accessibility. Shenyse Lujan:Partner Program ManagerCertified Professional in Accessibility Core Competencies (CPACC)slujan@audioeye.comhttps://www.audioeye.com/marketplaceMobile: 520-425-1783  Sean Dever:Web Marketer/SEM Strategistseand@forbin.comhttps://www.forbin.com/  

UXAUS2019 Day 1 Thank God for rules. Without the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, the web would be an even messier place. Whether designing services or digital products, we are faced daily with different layers of rules coming from industry regulations, frameworks, legal teams, partners, vendors, the conveniently called "requirements" and sometimes our very selves. Looking at concrete examples from 5 areas of design, we will ask ourselves why, when and how rules should be questioned in product strategy, ways of working, UX methods, interface design as well as in the product delivery cycle. Time to bust the famous "We've always done it that way".

Linn Olsson, User Experience Designer och Mats Johansson, testledare, målar bilden av WCAG och hur det påverkar oss i vardagen. Web Content Accessibility Guidelines är tillgänglighetsriktlinjer; alla människor ska ha samma rättigheter att kunna ta del av det som finns på webben, t ex information på en sida. Linn hjälper organisationer att designa för tillgänglighet och Mats utbildar utvecklare (programmerare) och kontrollerar att resultatet uppfyller EUs riktlinjer. OM AVSNITTETMålgrupp: nyfiken allmänhet, anställda inom stat och kommun, användare, beställare, utvecklare, kommunikatörer, informatörerLär dig: tillgänglighet, WCAG, myndighetswebb, UX-design, mjukvarutest Standarden består av 78 kriterier grupperade i 12 riktlinjer, som i sin tur är del av fyra områden: Möjlig att uppfattaHanterbarBegripligRobust Design för tillgänglighet innebär att man tar hänsyn till alla i arbetet med färg, kontraster, form, hur man skriver texter, navigering (med hjälp av t ex tabbar, skärmläsare) och mycket mer. Test av WCAG innefattar användningstest och kontroll av designen, men också tekniska tester för att se till att programkoden validerar mot WCAG. Till exempel måste alla bilder ha ALT-taggar, som läses upp för den som inte kan se webbsidan. De tekniska testerna görs automatiserade, med WCAG-validatorer. Resultatet får sedan utvecklingsteamet ta del av för att kunna förbättra webben. GDPRs krav på godkännande av webcookies, du vet den störande lilla rutan som dyker upp på alla nya webbsajter du besöker, har lett till mängder av problem där funktionsnedsatta inte på ett smidigt sätt kan stänga ner rutan och tab-navigera sig vidare genom sajten. WCAG 2.1 är den version som gäller just nu och inkluderar video och mobilitet. För att göra det hela lite mer komplicerat kan man uppfylla tillgänglighetskriterierna i tre nivåer: A, AA och AAA, som är den högsta nivån. Gå igenom kriterierna och se vad som är rimligt för er. Håll koll på datumen! EUs webbdirektiv anger när olika myndighetswebbar (offentliga organ) ska följa WCAG: 23 september 2019 alla nyutvecklade webbar23 september 2020 även alla gamla webbar23 juni 2021 även alla publika appar Hur lyckas man? Linn och Mats tipsar högt och lågt: Empati! Sätt dig in i hur det är att ha en funktionsnedsättning. Prova på att blunda och surfa med skärmläsare. Tänk dig att inte kunna använda Swish eller mobilt Bank-ID - du stängs ute från stora delar av samhället.Med gratis valideringsverktyg kan du plocka lågt hängande frukt genom att gå igenom din webbsajt, se nedanManuella checklistor finns också på nätet, se nedanSätt upp processer för att säkra tillgänglig utvecklingKolla vad som händer med layouten när du t ex förstorar texten Och ärligt talat - varför missa 1 av 5 användare?* Så många har nån typ av funktionsnedsättning! Linn Olsson, Mats Johansson, Jonas Jaani (22:35) Länkar: https://webbriktlinjer.se/wcag/ Linn Olsson på LinkedIn Mats Johansson på Linkedin  Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Enkelt förklarat Skapa den attraktiva webbplatsen. Martin Johansson (avsnitt 110) Total validator (verktyg för att testa WCAG) *permanent (tex amputerad arm), tillfällig (brutit arm), till situationell (nybliven förälder med ett barn i armen)  

This is a great start pointing when asking yourself How To Improve SEO Through Accessible Web Design. For more information, be sure to visit https://w3.org or contact us at https://HeyStackMarketing.com. WCAG is short for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. there are 3 levels to being WCAG Compliant which are Level A, Level AA, and Level AAA each with their own requirements. Not only will having an accessible website help vision or hearing impaired customers browse your site, but it will also add a ton of organic SEO value. Search engines have one goal, and it is to deliver the best possible experience to their users as they leverage the tools provided to them. Because major search engines do not discriminate, it is important that the website they serve to their users are accessible and can be easily used in addition to providing relevant content pertaining to the user's search query. In this episode we cover a few of the minimum requirements needed to be Level A WCAG compliant. These include: 1. ALT Text on all images. The ALT text provides a description of an image that will be displayed should the image not load or should a screen reader be used. The ALT text should relate to the primary keyword of the page and the title of the image that the ALT text is attached to should reflect this keyword as well. 2. Videos, whether hosted on the website or through a CDN such as YouTube, should have captions enabled. This will allow vision impaired individuals the ability to consume the content within the video. 3. The website should have various features that allow it to be Navigable. This includes a wide variety of components including heading hierarchy. Heading hierarchy makes is easier for screen readers to navigate the content and makes the content easily navigable by major search engines. H2's should be sub topics of H1's. H3's should be sub topics oh H1's and so on. A user should be able to tab through all of the elements within the website without the need of a mouse. This allows for better overall UX and makes the website more accessible to a wider audience. 4. Every piece of the website should be distinguishable. the contrast ratio of text to background should always be at least 3:1. If white text is on a light yellow background, it will be very difficult to read and the website will not be considered accessible. there are a ton of contrast ratio checkers online. Enter in the hex codes of the text and background colors to see if it has a ratio of at least 3:1. The minimum font size site wide should be 16px. The minimum spacing between tap targets should be at least 8px to prevent major search engines from assuming your website is trying to trick users into inadvertently clicking other elements. Run a surface level audit of your website right now to see if it is partially WGAC compliant by inspecting an image for the ALT tag, a title for the h tag and the body copy for the minimum font size. If any of these requirements are not met, your website was not built with WGAC compliance in mind as these are surface-level requirements for Level A compliance. SUBSCRIBE RIGHT NOW TO THIS CHANNEL! Follow on Instagram: @SelfBossTips https://www.instagram.com/heystack_ma... Follow on Instagram: @Heystack_Marketing https://www.instagram.com/selfbosstips/ Get More Help: https://heystackmarketing.com

My guest this week is Sina Barham, founder of Prima Access Computing.Show NotesGuestSina Bahram, Founder and President of Prime Access ComputingHostHost: Doug SchumacherWebsite: Arrovox.com/VoiceMarketingTwitter: @MemeRunnerPrime Access Computing Websitehttps://pac.bzTranscriptIntroDoug:Welcome to VoiceMarketing. I’m Doug Schumacher, and on today’s episode, we have a very special guest. Sina Barham.Sina does what you might call speed listening using a TTS engine. And he’s getting up to some pretty remarkable speeds, which we’re going to go through in the podcast.It’s a fascinating discussion about speed listening with TTS engines, voice assistant UX, and the future of audio as the primary format for content consumption.Sina’s going to give a brief overview of his background, but a couple of things that he didn’t mention that I want to, are,In 2012, Sina was recognized as a White House Champion of Change by President Barack Obama, for his work enabling users with disabilities to succeed in the STEM fields of Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math.In 2015, Sina was recognized as an Emerging Leader in Digital Accessibility at the annual Knowbility Heroes of Accessibility Awards.In 2017, Sina served as co-chair of the Museums and the Web conference. And in 2019, Sina started serving as an invited expert on the W3C ARIA working group.So let’s get right into it. Here’s my conversation with Sina Barham.InterviewVoiceMarketing.m4aDoug: Sina,Sina: Hi how’s it going.Doug Hey good to talk to you too. So let’s go ahead of giving people a quick overview of you.But why don’t you introduce yourself and give us a quick quick background of your history your education work all that stuff.Sina; Sure. I run a company called prime access consulting or PAC Casey for short. We’re based out of Research Triangle Park in North Carolina.And Kerry and a lot of what we do is focus on inclusive design and accessibility is one of those outcomes of inclusive design so we look at processes whether it’s software whether it’s inside of a museum or university or startup. What have you. On how we can make things available to the widest possible audience. That means things like tech signs that means things like making sure programs like a screen reader can access content but it also means you know physical considerations for getting around an exhibit or getting around a service offering from from a company and just really trying to work with designers developer boards of trustees. What have you on making sure that these various afford says we’re designing and we’re putting on into the world are as accessible as possible. I got into this work because of my background in computer science so my undergraduate and graduate degrees are in computer science. I’m a BD and a Ph.D. in computer science and in a field called Human Computer Interaction and. I happen to be blind. So a lot of my time in grad school was spent at the beginning not wanting to go into accessibility not wanting to go into inclusive design because I kind of felt it was pretty stereotypical as the blind guy to go into accessibility I wanted to do a lot of other things but I got really frustrated with a lot of the tools I had to use and a lot of the various things that people were claiming were accessible and in fact really were not where I knew the technology to be able to be or where I knew the software capabilities were what we’re able to achieve. And so I started getting into designing solutions in the space and then brought in that not only for persons with disabilities or people who use assistive technologies but really for everyone so that we can make experiences that are delightful and enjoyable by as many people as possible because that’s really fantastic.Doug: You mentioned a little bit about the the tools and the interface and so on and I want to come back and talk about that a little bit but the thing that I want to start with is the video that I saw of you on YouTube.I believe it’s from 2011. But what what really captured my heart my attention on that was you were you were consuming text at edit incredible rate. I mean what I was hearing was just a literally an audio blur going past and you were apparently passing that and comprehending what was being said. And so you want to give a little setup to that what that was about and then we’ll go into that from there.Sina: Sure. First of all 2011 seems like a century ago. So it’s just amazing to think about that.And I was using a program called a screenwriter at that time so I mentioned that I happen to be blind which which means that I’m not able to see what’s on the screen but I’m still able to program and access email and do all of these various things access to command line and so the the way that I do that is with a program called the screen reader. It uses a variety of programmatic interfaces it’s not just you know doing OCR it’s not doing optical character recognition on the screen. It’s actually programmatically getting the content of these various applications whether it’s something like Outlook PowerPoint or Microsoft Word or something like Firefox or Chrome on the web cetera. And it is able to then turn that information into speech. Now this is pretty straightforward. But the thing that caught your caught your ear was the fact that I had the speech cranked up quite a bit. I believe in the video that you’re referencing. You know I was listening to it about eight hundred nine hundred words per minute. Something around there maybe 950. Yeah. Yeah. That’s you know you can think of that like roughly six or seven acts human regular conversation like like we’re talking right now at about 150 hundred sixty I tend to talk a little fast. Average speaking rates right around there. And that’s that program that screen reader is driving something called a text to speech engine or a T. Or just think of it as a voice and there’s tons of different voices out there. I tend to use a pretty robotic sounding voice. I mean it really sounds like it’s out of the 1980s and a lot of ways it is but because it’s mathematically generated it’s not a recording of someone in a studio where those phones have been stitched together it’s actually mathematically generated as a result you can crank it as fast as you can understand. And I’m fortunate enough through my life to have trained myself to listen to it very quickly as have many other screen reader users and that’s what we’re hearing.Doug: So. So do you have a clip of that you can play for us because I think that’ll be really fascinating.Sina: Yeah I can I can. What I’ll do here is I’ll just have my computer see some stuff out loud and we’ll take a listen to that. Great.All right. So there’s that.For example if we wanted to do like here’s the here’s the time that the current time right now.Right. So three twenty two we can. We know we can slow this down.Right. So slow down a little bit more slower frequently. Right. That’s starting to become understandable right. Slower frequently. Right. And then all I’m doing is like that.And so what is that speed right there.That’s what I would say that’s about a six to seven x so that’s it that’s about a thousand words from it but between nine hundred and a thousand depending you can process it.Doug: No problem. Yeah for sure.Sina: Now I might slow it down you know if I’m reading you know a contract or something like that and like for example you’re like I’ll use the interface right now to route the audio back to my to my headphones I’ll use it at the speed that I’ve got it out because more of a navigational test I’ll do something like this. Great sound card window’s default. Right. And now it’s back in my headphones so that I’m able to understand fine but if I’m reading a book for pleasure or if I’m reading a contract with legal language in it especially if it’s in a spreadsheet with numbers I will slow down but I won’t slow down anywhere to that you know the speed that you’ve you were listening to when I when I had it all the way low I might just slow down a few a few ticks if you will. So like call it 700 words or 600. You know it’s like really really relaxed. Right.Doug: And that’s how anybody would read printed text as well. The more contracts and technical things you tend to read a lot slower and for more of the leisure and long format stuff. Right.To accelerate your reading speed. So yeah that’s that’s really fascinating. Now are you. Are you using so with the with the text to speech generator you’ve got on your computer are you reading primarily from when you’re surfing the web or you’re reading primarily from ACA compliant Web sites or are you processing pretty much everything.Well that’s a that’s a it’s an intricate question right. So when you say an ADA compliannt Web site you know you’re referring to something called Web site accessibility or the fact that a web page is able to be accessed in a better way with assistive technologies and there’s no way that you do that.Is that the developers and the designers have have followed something called the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines or weak WC first report and that’s really important because what it is is a set of principles a set of rules that really are the things that everybody should be doing on a Web site making sure he has available apps not hiding it in an image that sort of thing. And so it doesn’t mean that Web sites that are not like that cannot be gotten through. It just means that if these accessibility considerations are not taken then it’s a lot more arduous a lot more difficult. So imagine like an academic portal or a news Web site with a ton of links on it and no headings on the page then you can’t use those headings to navigate around. So you have to hear all those links or figure out a way of skipping past them. So it’s those kinds of things that you end up doing. You can still sort of get to th

From PPC and CRM to KPIs and CRO, marketers love their acronyms. But here's one acronym you might not be familiar with: WCAG, also known as Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Like the name implies, WCAG is a step-by-step set of technical requirements allow your website accessible to everyone, including those with disabilities. In other words, if your brand has a website or an app, then the rules of WCAG affect you. In this episode, we'll discuss the impact of WCAG, the basic principles of online accessibility, its design implications and more.

New accessibility guidelines are coming down the pipe that will impact our apps with the new WCAG 2.1. We chat about what the guidelines are and how we can start preparing our apps for them.

It’s a new month and with it a brand new theme for our upcoming Build episodes! When designing products we often think about usability: how easy to use a product is. But we often overlook another aspect of product design: accessibility. So all this month we’re going to dive into accessibility. One reason accessibility gets overlooked is because we think it’s a challenge to prioritize it given a company’s size and resources. We may think accessibility makes sense for a big company, but a startup that is getting off the ground just doesn’t have the resources to incorporate it. Well, actually that’s not true... In fact, accessibility maybe just the differentiator you need when it comes to product design that is going to give your product a competitive advantage and increase adoption! And in today’s episode, we’re going to explore what accessibility is, why it’s important for any size company to incorporate, and show you how to do an accessibility audit for your product. To help us out, I've invited Laura Allen, who is the Accessibility Program Manager at Google for Chrome and the Chrome operating system. You’ll learn: What accessibility is and how it’s different from usability How accessibility influences user adoption of products How companies will benefit by incorporating accessibility into product development process, priorities, and core values Examples of common accessibility issues that impact all of us at various moments in our lives How to do an accessibility audit for your product and the 4 important principles to consider each time Here are some additional resources to checkout that Laura mentions in the episode: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ Vox Media Accessibility Checklist: http://accessibility.voxmedia.com/ Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer and Pivotal Tracker. San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA. ## Product Design: Why Accessibility Needs To Be Prioritized In Product Design Transcript   Poornima Vijayashanker:    We often think about usability when we're designing products, but not accessibility. In today's *Build* episode, we're going to talk about the importance of accessibility and how to prioritize it regardless of being a startup or a big company, so stay tuned.                    Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker, I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. In each episode of *Build*, I host innovators and together we debunk a number of myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech. Now, one often overlooked aspect of building products is accessibility. In today's *Build* episode, we're going to talk about what accessibility is, why it's important, and how you can do an accessibility audit for your product. To help us out, I've invited Laura Allen, who is a accessibility program manager at Google for Chrome and the Chrome operating system.                     Thanks for joining us today, Laura.   Laura Allen:        Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Sure. I know that a lot of times people think about usability when they're building products but they don't often think about accessibility. Let's talk about what is accessibility and how is it different from usability.   Laura Allen:        Accessibility is the design of products, services, devices, and environments for people with disabilities. I always like to take that one step further and think about accessibility as really empowering users with disabilities to be productive, to be socially engaged, and to be independent. This is super closely aligned with the concept of usability and also even just universal design and inclusive design. You think about universal design being this idea of building products that are going to be usable by the widest range of people and the widest range of situations. It's so closely aligned with this, that absolutely includes designing for people with disabilities.                     This whole concept of usability, yes it's critical to be thinking about all the time, of course, but we can make products functionally accessible, we can go through checklists, we can incorporate design principles and what not to make things technically work, but if you don't think about how is this actually going to be used, what is the experience for someone with assistive technology—like a screen reader, for example—if you don't think about that experience and usability of that experience it might not be productive or efficient at all. All these things are really closely linked together and they all help to move towards building an inclusive product.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Why is this even important? I think a lot of people would say, "Oh, we have a really niche customers customer base, we don't think anybody has accessibility concerns so why even bother?"   Laura Allen:        Accessibility is something that impacts everyone at some phase or at some point in their life. Fifteen percent of the global population has some form of disability—that's a huge number, that's over a billion people. We tend to think about a few different distinct groups when we're thinking about design. We might be thinking about people who are low vision or blind, people who are deaf or hard of hearing, people who have motor or dexterity challenges. Then people who are, what we consider to be, neurologically diverse that can be anything ranging from dyslexia, to perhaps being on the autism spectrum, to any forms of intellectual disabilities.                     When you think about these different groups of people, people might be developing disabilities at different phases of their life, different severity levels, different combinations of disabilities, and then you start to think about, what about temporary impairments? Like what if you break your arm and all of a sudden you can't type on your computer for a few months? Situational impairments, like what if you're at a loud restaurant or a loud bar and there’s something on the TV that you want to be listening to, it's too loud to hear and you have to actually rely on those captions that were there specifically for the deaf population but they're helpful to everyone. Then, you take it one step further, and you think about this growing aging population, which thanks to increasing life expectancy, which is great, the aging population of people over 60 is growing, and growing, and growing, and the World Health Organization estimates that by 2050 it'll be over 2 billion people that are over the age of 60.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Wow, so it's like doubling. Hopefully not, but yeah.   Laura Allen:        As we all age, at any point in our lives, we may experience some slight deteriorations in vision, or of hearing, or of dexterity, so these concepts are really, really critical to be building in, in general.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    That makes sense. Now, some would say that this makes sense for really big companies with hundreds of millions of users, but does it really make sense for our tiny little startup that's just getting started?   Laura Allen:        I would honestly say, accessibility is something that is critical for all companies, at all stages, all phases. To be totally honest with you, it's actually easier to build this in four startup-sized companies, smaller teams, smaller processes. Of course, it's completely doable at large companies as well that have established processes, but at a startup, you're building from the ground up, you're defining what you want your product processes to look like, and it's so much better just to be able to integrate accessibility in at that level, get people understanding what these concepts are, make this just a core part of inclusive design from the very beginning, and it'll be that much easier as you grow, and grow, and grow.                     Another thing to think about here is accessibility because it impacts such a large number of people this presents, honestly, a growth opportunity in many cases. It just opens doors for a lot more business, a lot of growth potentially. One thing that I like to think about, especially for startups and just hiring in general, if companies are focused on actually making their own products accessible then it opens the doors as well for being able to hire a more diverse and inclusive workforce. You can hire assistive technology users and have them come in and be able to use your products and that opens the door.                     A lot of us, obviously, at the companies we're thinking about how do we further diversify? How do we get people in the room who have a diverse set of perspectives? This whole idea of diversity a lot of times we are thinking about race, and ethnicity, and gender, sexual orientation, but disability is a huge part of this. It is a very, very big part of this group and we need a voice.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Making it into your process, your priorities, your core values can really open doors for you in terms of your customer base and make things, hopefully, easier as you grow.   Laura Allen:        Absolutely. I will say, too, for a lot of people, like I mentioned before, accessibility will touch everybody at some point and in many cases it'll make the experience better, and more usable for many, many users. For someone like me, I happen to be low vision myself—   Poornima Vijayashanker:    What does that mean, “low vision?”   Laura Allen:        Really good question, because it can mean a lot of different things. For me, I basically have a central vision disorder, so if you can imagine all in my peripheral vision is still intact, it's still clear, but anything I'm looking directly at is this blend of flashing lights, and distortion, and blurring, and whatnot. This all happened for me when I was about 14, happened really quickly, really rare condition. I basically went from having typical 20/20 vision to being what's considered legally blind within about a week when I was 14. At that point, it was like I'm getting ready for high school, and all of a sudden I'm going to be moving to a bigger school, and then what happens? I couldn't read a book at that point. I couldn't see a blackboard. I couldn't recognize faces in the hallway. It was a huge period of transition for me, and for my family.                    For a few years there, it was one of those things where if materials weren't actually accessible in formats that I could listen to, for example, instead of visually read, I was stuck. I had to literally come home from school and my parents and my brother would read to me. That, to me, was the definition of dependence and I really, really hated it. I was so fortunate to have a family that was able to help me that way. It was just unbelievable the amount of effort they went through to get me through to the point where then I was able to regain my independence through discovering assistive technology like text-to-speech software, or magnification, or a larger mouse cursor, things like that.                    It was that period of my life that really propelled me into this world of accessibility and usability, because I saw the huge potential of what technology can do for someone's life and I just want to help to make that better for the rest of the world.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    It's great to hear you have a personal stake and it inspires everybody out there, but it also inspires you to realize and relate to people who might also be having these recognitions so that's wonderful to hear.                     For people in our audience out there who are building products, how can they get started? How can they prioritize this and gain the benefits?   Laura Allen:        That's a great question. There are a lot of different things to be considering. One thing that I would recommend is doing an audit, understanding where is your product right now, what's the level? This may vary. If you haven't really been thinking about accessibility yet, that's OK. It's a good opportunity to look at the holistic picture and see what's going on, and what bugs you may have. I would recommend just going through and leveraging a lot of the different resources that are out there and using those to create your own audit, however that works for you.                     For example, there is a great resource out there from the web content accessibility guidelines and we abbreviate that to WCAG. This is a W3C standard guidelines for accessibility. They've been really widely adopted by a lot of designers, engineers, companies, and they're wonderful. They outline different steps and different things to be considering.                     For example, they break it down into four different categories: perceivable, operable, understandable, and robust. Each of these things has a lot of different checkpoints, but just as a brief example, when we think about “perceivable,” what assumptions are you making about your users basically? What are we assuming that they can perceive? Are we assuming they have perfect sight or sight at all? Are we assuming that they can hear? Thinking about how they're perceiving the product and then different design guidelines that go hand-in-hand with that.                     “Operable,” similarly, is what are we assuming about the users, how they're actually operating with the product? Are we assuming they have really fine motor skills? That they can use a mouse, that they can use a keyboard? Are we assuming that they are able to use really quick reaction times, things like that?                     “Understandable,” what is the general understandability of the product? Are you assuming really high language skills to be able to navigate? Or the ability to just remember really complex sequences, all kinds of things like that? Then, “robust” is a little bit different in that it talks about how is your product working with assistive technology? Like a screen reader, for example, which would be leveraged by someone who's blind to be able to listen to the product, listen to the phone, or the computer, whatever it may be, and get that audio output instead of the visual.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Nice.   Laura Allen:        The WCAG is a great resource. I tend to think when I'm thinking about checklists and working with designers and whatnot, I break down into a few key groups as well. The first around keyboard and focus, just really taking a quick poll of—let's say you've got a site, how does it work with just the keyboard, no mouse whatsoever? It's a great thing for engineers and designers to be able to try that out themselves as well. Just try using the keyboard only and as you're navigating through, can you get to everything that you need to? Can you also see visual focus indication? If you don't see that and you're just tabbing through, you don't know what you can actually take action on. Have you thought about that in the design process, basically?                     Then, I start to think about semantics. How do we actually make it more clear for screen reader users what the page is actually all about or what the app's all about? For example, do we have labels in place for buttons so that as you navigate with a screen reader, you don't just hear, "Button," or, "Unlabeled button," which is not helpful at all. Thinking about how do we just convey that experience and make sure that it's clear for a screen reader.                     Then a third bucket, which I like to call think about in my audits, is just this idea of flexible interface. That can be anything from color contrast—so WCAG actually says we should have a minimum color contrast ratio of 4.5:1 for text against its background color. That's super helpful because for anyone, like me, with a low vision or just anyone who doesn't have the perfect 20/20 vision, it can be really hard to actually distinguish those colors, or a low contrast text, so that's a really helpful usability improvement for a lot of people.                     In this same group of flexible UI, you think about things like how does this interface look with magnification at a 200% zoom level, for example? Or are we using just color, or just sound to convey information? Just color, one example there, is if you have an input field and you type an error and all of a sudden maybe just the text will appear red. In that case, people who can't distinguish color will miss that information, screen reader users, or braille readers will completely miss that information as well. Thinking about how do you go one step further and convey that and make sure there's also error messaging. You can still use the color red and all, that's fine but it can't be the only way that you're identifying that information.                     I like to think through questions like that using the WCAG guidelines and other things that help there—like I know Vox Media has a really great checklist—and just get a sense of where's the current level? From that point, you may have a lot of different bugs, you may have different things that you want to be able to address, and the next step is naturally to work on, “How do we triage this? How do you prioritize?” I think one really helpful thing to do there is just to think about each of these bugs, what is the typical user impact? How critical is this? Would this bug stop somebody from being able to actually interact or take action on your site and your core purpose of your site or your app? I like to think about that, and help to prioritize, and just go from there.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Wonderful. We'll be also sure to include the resources you mentioned below in the show notes.                     You've mentioned a number of things that happen during the audit. What happens after the audit?   Laura Allen:        I think the next natural step, of course, is going through that triage and prioritization process. Then as you're solving these problems, as you're fixing bugs, continuing to go through and help to honestly integrate accessibility into each step of the process. I think that's the really critical step. One holistic audit is not going to take you all the way. We have to start bringing this into our development process and building it from the ground up. Then, honestly, getting out there and working with users, understanding what the feedback is. I think that's a really critical component to understanding how to improve.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    I know in the next episode we're going to be going into a little bit more detail and boiling it down for viewers out there. Thank you so much today for joining us Laura.   Laura Allen:        Thank you.   Poornima Vijayashanker:    Now, Laura and I want to know: how does your company handle accessibility? Let us know in the comments below.                     That's it for this week's episode. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive the next episode where we'll dive in a little bit deeper and share three key tips that you want to think about when designing for accessibility. Thanks so much to our sponsor Pivotal Tracker for their help in producing this episode. Ciao for now.                    This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.

The issue of accessibility in online learning has been waiting for attention. Until recently, however, the urgency for action has been largely absent or deferred. Intentions were good, but few formal implementation deadlines demanded immediate action. The passage of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act in 2005 led to the 2008 b adoption of Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 (WCAG) developed by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The Ontario Government has set a time limit of 1 January 2021 for compliance with this standard. This presentation will consider the changing concept of disability and accessibility in online learning. It will then provide a case study of Tyndale University College Seminary in Ontario, Canada, as it prepares to implement accessibility requirements for the 2021 deadline. Recorded and aired on Friday, January 26, 2018. The audio below plays the entire webinar with the Q/A session at the end. The YouTube video provides a subtitled, visual background to the 30-minute presentation embedded within the audio. Some resources from Ben Watson of the Faith-Based Online Learning Directors: Screen Readers:JAWS for Windows and NVDA for WindowsVoiceOver for both the iPhone and iPad.Reading Apps (all for the iPhone and iPad)Voice Dream ReaderKindleIBooksNookEasy ReaderPocketBard Mobile. This is the application from the National Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped in the US. BARD stands for Braille and Audio Reading Download. Both audio and braille books can be accessed on the appFor reading the classics LibriVox or Audio Books Headquarters both work well. Overdrive, an app used by libraries across the country.App from Learning Ally. They have 75,000 mostly textbooks that have been recorded for blind and people with other learning disabilities that listening to a book can help.Audible should be mentioned, very accessible in both Windows and IOS.Apple’s news app for news and their podcast app for listening to podcasts.Writing:MicroSoft Office is very accessible.Word processing app called Voice Dream Writer.For blogging, Byword.Research:Everybody’s favorite Google app works well in both Windows and IOS and the Wikipedia app works well in IOS.Dr. Lawrence Hopperton is the Director of Distributed Learning at Tyndale University College and Seminary. He was formerly the Director of Research for the Canadian TeleLearning National Centre of Excellence and Senior Instructional Designer for the Canadian Centre of Excellence for Refugee and Immigrant Studies.

The issue of accessibility in online learning has been waiting for attention. Until recently, however, the urgency for action has been largely absent or deferred. Intentions were good, but few formal implementation deadlines demanded immediate action. The passage of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act in 2005 led to the 2008 b adoption of Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 (WCAG) developed by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The Ontario Government has set a time limit of 1 January 2021 for compliance with this standard. This presentation will consider the changing concept of disability and accessibility in online learning. It will then provide a case study of Tyndale University College Seminary in Ontario, Canada, as it prepares to implement accessibility requirements for the 2021 deadline. Recorded and aired on Friday, January 26, 2018. The audio below plays the entire webinar with the Q/A session at the end. The YouTube video provides a subtitled, visual background to the 30-minute presentation embedded within the audio. Some resources from Ben Watson of the Faith-Based Online Learning Directors: Screen Readers:JAWS for Windows and NVDA for WindowsVoiceOver for both the iPhone and iPad.Reading Apps (all for the iPhone and iPad)Voice Dream ReaderKindleIBooksNookEasy ReaderPocketBard Mobile. This is the application from the National Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped in the US. BARD stands for Braille and Audio Reading Download. Both audio and braille books can be accessed on the appFor reading the classics LibriVox or Audio Books Headquarters both work well. Overdrive, an app used by libraries across the country.App from Learning Ally. They have 75,000 mostly textbooks that have been recorded for blind and people with other learning disabilities that listening to a book can help.Audible should be mentioned, very accessible in both Windows and IOS.Apple’s news app for news and their podcast app for listening to podcasts.Writing:MicroSoft Office is very accessible.Word processing app called Voice Dream Writer.For blogging, Byword.Research:Everybody’s favorite Google app works well in both Windows and IOS and the Wikipedia app works well in IOS.Dr. Lawrence Hopperton is the Director of Distributed Learning at Tyndale University College and Seminary. He was formerly the Director of Research for the Canadian TeleLearning National Centre of Excellence and Senior Instructional Designer for the Canadian Centre of Excellence for Refugee and Immigrant Studies.

今回は、太田 良典さんにも加わっていただいて、2017年のアクセシビリティー関連の話題を振り返っています。 カバー写真：収録場所の会議室。大きなモニター画面の左右にゲストの太田さんといずいずが立って「モニターに注目！」ポーズ。そのモニターにはSkypeで遠隔参加した植木 with 老眼鏡が映ってる（もちろん合成）。そして手前のテーブルには収録準備中の笑顔の中根。 オープニング・トーク 今回のizuizuからのお題は「今年東京で出会った外国からのお客様」です。が、お題に沿った話をしているのはizuizuだけです……。 太田 良典さんを交えて まず、最近転職されたという太田さんに新しいお仕事について伺っています。 つづいて、太田さんも交えて今年、2017年のアクセシビリティーに関する話題を振り返っています。以下のような話題を取り上げています。 イベント関連 Japan Accessibility Conference Vol. 1 アクセシビリティの祭典 アクセシビリティキャンプ東京 #10「ビデオゲームとアクセシビリティ」 -- 目が見えなくてもスト2はできる。全盲ゲーマーと対戦! -- イベント以外の話題 Window-Eyesが開発終了 テレビ番組の音声解説や字幕について Yahoo! JAPANによる「きこえる選挙」 「インクルーシブHTML+CSS & JavaScript 多様なユーザーニーズに応えるフロントエンドデザインパターン」の出版 Windows 10のアクセシビリティー関連機能の強化 Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.1 最終草案の公開 スマート・スピーカーなどに見るボイス・インターフェース そして最後に、2018年へ向けた展望についても話しています。 今回のゲスト 太田 良典 (おおた よしのり) さん 弁護士ドットコム株式会社 エキスパートエンジニア ウェブアクセシビリティ基盤委員会(WAIC) 翻訳作業部会主査 HTML仕様の翻訳や解説といった個人活動をしながら、2001年よりビジネス・アーキテクツで大規模企業サイトの制作や管理に従事。 Web技術の分野で幅広い専門性を持ち、セキュリティ分野においては「第二回IPA賞（情報セキュリティ部門）」を受賞。 アクセシビリティ分野では、ウェブアクセシビリティ基盤委員会(WAIC)の委員として活動している。 2017年12月より、アクセシビリティエンジニアとして弁護士ドットコムに所属。 著書（共著）に「デザイニングWebアクセシビリティ」など。 収録後記 今年もたいへんたいへんたいへんお世話になりました！例年以上に今年のアクセシビリティは楽しかったなぁ。来年はもっともっとなんかやってみたいでっすでっす！みなさま良いお年をお迎えくださいませませまっせー！ (山本 和泉） ここ数年Web関連技術の進歩の速度がどんどん早くなっている印象がありますが、今年はアクセシビリティー関連技術の変化も加速してきたなあという印象を持っています。来年も引き続きアクセシビリティー界隈の話題をお届けしていきますので、どうぞよろしくお願いします。 なお、収録時には公開されていなかったWebAIMのスクリーン・リーダー・ユーザーを対象とした調査結果が公開されています。AccSellクリッピングにもリンクを掲載していますのでどうぞご覧ください。 それでは皆さん、どうぞ良いお年をお迎えください。 (中根 雅文） もういくつ寝ると～お正月～♪　ということで、来週はもう2018年！　2017年もあっという間でした。皆さん、今年もありがとうございました。今年、アクセシビリティにはビッグウェーブが来ていましたが、来年もこのビッグウェーブにみんなで乗っていきましょう！　よいお年を！！ (植木 真） AccSellクリッピングの関連記事 Window-Eyes to JAWS Migration (Ai Squared) 視覚障がい者向けの選挙情報サイト「Yahoo! JAPAN 聞こえる選挙」を公開 (ヤフー株式会社) [新刊書籍] インクルーシブHTML+CSS & JavaScript 多様なユーザーニーズに応えるフロントエンドデザインパターン (Amazon.co.jp) 視覚障がい者向けの衆院選の情報サイト「Yahoo! JAPAN 聞こえる選挙」を公開 (ヤフー株式会社) Control your PC with your EYES with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update (YouTube) NVDAからWindows10のOCR機能を呼び出して、NDLデジタルコレクションを読み上げて使ってみる (kzakza's Blog) モリサワ「Windows 10 Fall Creators Update」での「UDデジタル教科書体」正式採用を発表 (株式会社モリサワ) スクリーンリーダー利用に関するトレンド : 2017年10月実施の WebAIM 調査より (Website Usability Info) Final WCAG 2.1 Working Draft (w3c-wai-ig@w3.org)

We kick off the first episode of our official first season with Stephanie Slattery, a front-end engineer who specializes in accessibility. She breaks down the world of accessibility, giving you the perfect introduction to this topic. She explains the five categories of disabilities, shows us how to implement suggestions from the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, and shares why she’s so passionate about helping more people experience tech. Show Links Digital Ocean (sponsor) MongoDB (sponsor) Heroku (sponsor) TwilioQuest (sponsor) ADA 1990 W3C Illinois Institute of Technology Dev Bootcamp An Introduction to Web Accessibility (Stephanie's Blog Post) WCAG (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines) Rehabilitation Act of 1973 NeoPets Codeland, CodeNewbie's conference - April 21 and 22 in NYC Codeland Conf Codeland 2019

Marcy Sutton: @marcysutton | marcysutton.com | Deque Systems Show Notes: 01:07 - Deque Systems 01:54 - Accessibility Tool Integration and Testing 05:26 - Configuration and Success Criteria 07:04 - What is accessibility? WCAG 09:22 - Spurring Adoption of Accessibility 12:09 - The Accessibility Matrix 16:56 - Accessibility-First Development 18:12 - WCAG and ARIA Roles 24:57 - Test Automation vs Human Interaction 28:56 - Empathy Building 30:45 - Porting to the Web 35:57 - Accessibility in Single-page Apps and Focus Management Resources: axe-core aXe aXe Developer Tools WCAG (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines) Web Accessibility for Designers WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices 1.1 First rule of ARIA use Access Works: Usability and Accessibility Training Marcy Sutton: Notes On Client-Rendered Accessibility a11y on Slack Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody. Welcome to The Frontside Podcast Episode 61. My name is Charles Lowell. I'm a developer here at The Frontside. With me also is Mr Robert De Luca, a developer at The Frontside and today we have with us, Marcy Sutton who is going to be talking with us a little bit about accessibility, both in the large and the small. Welcome, Marcy. MARCY: Good morning, everyone. Happy to be here. CHARLES: I know, I understand you're actually calling us from the parking lot of a ski area. MARCY: I am at the legendary Mount Baker ski area outside of Bellingham, Washington where we have the winter that is just going on and on and on and getting after it on the last few days of my birthday vacation. ROBERT: Oh, wait. Happy birthday. CHARLES: Yeah, happy birthday. ROBERT: Happy belated or happy birthday. MARCY: Yeah, it was Sunday so still on that shiny birthday week. CHARLES: Well, thank you for getting with us on your vacation and on your birthday but doing a little bit of work, you actually work at Deque Labs. What is it that you guys do over there and what's your particular area of interest and work there? MARCY: Deque is an accessibility company. We have people who work on products and services for accessibility. We help people avoid lawsuits and make their websites and mobile apps more accessible to people with disabilities. My slice of that work is on the product team, where I work on browser extensions, APIs for developers. Basically to make it so you don't have to write every single accessibility tool or test yourself. You can pull in these APIs and get some of that experience that Deque has built up for years and years and years, which was part of the reason I went to work there was to learn from them. We make tools that make it easy for you to make use of that knowledge in your applications. ROBERT: That's awesome. It's like a base JavaScript library that can be ported anywhere, like to browser extensions. I know we use it in Ember accessibility testing. That's really cool. That's where I've gone for the way I write JavaScript. It's in a base library so everybody can use it and it's even more awesome that it's testing and like wrapping tooling around accessibility because I know a lot of developer-minded people want to see like a failed built. CHARLES: Yes, what does that experience look like? I mean, coming from someone who's never even heard of these tools, how would I integrate them into my project and what would change about my workflow? What information would it surface? MARCY: The best place and the reason I work on these products is that I saw projects go out the door broken a lot of times, when working in agencies or maybe testing isn't part of your methodology. Personally in my career, I just knew there had to be a better way. I got into software testing and the more I learned about it, the more I thought that it was sustainable, you could pull in other APIs to help you write better tests. I went to work on axe-core, which is the JavaScript library that we've talked about a second ago. That really is bottling up all of these accessibility tests that you can automate some of the accessibility checks for things like if your HTML markup is in a good state and you're using attributes correctly. Basically, saving you from having to write all of those little microtests, some of which can be sort of complicated. It's all about getting test coverage for the automated things that we can actually test for. CHARLES: You described a pretty wide-ranging coverage. How do you go about actually implementing that into your CI process? Do you just install the axe-core? Do you have to load up your browser and then pointed it out? What does that look like? MARCY: Ideally, you would already have a test suite and you could just pull in the test harness. There's all different versions of aXe. There's versions in JavaScript and in Node. The core thing that you need to test is get your app running in a browser, whether it's a headless browser or could be a mounted browser but we need those actual DOM browser APIs to check things like color contrast. We need to be sort of coupled to the DOMs so that we can run our full set of tests, which is a distinction from, say some shallow rendering that you might be doing in React testing or something like that. For accessibility tests, we need an actual DOM so you could get axe-core on npm and then pull it into your project and then you basically either require or import it, depending on what your stack looks like in JavaScript. Then you have access to all of these tests. It's pretty useful since our ecosystem has evolved to cover things like npm. I've found that it works pretty well. ROBERT: That is pretty neat. You require it into your test and then you visit a page that's fully rendered and then you do aXe check, like you call a method that runs all these checks? MARCY: Exactly. You would call axe.run and then you configure it to run, either specific tests or just one test. One of the tricks that has been helpful to know is that if you disable the color contrast rule, you don't need quite as many of the DOM APIs so it will run faster in things like JSDOM, which doesn't implement the entire browser APIs. But you could call axe.run, either in your unit tests or more likely it would be in your integration tests because you'd already have a browser instance, either through Selenium-WebDriver or karma-chrome-launcher or something like that. Then you basically call axe.run, passing a callback function and then it will return to you at set of JSON results and then you can do things with those. ROBERT: When you call run, can you pass options of what you want to check? Can you filter out things that you know might -- because I imagine like if you put this into an existing app that's been going for a while, I imagine you're going to get a bunch of fails and it might be overwhelming. Is there a way to peel a back like an onion and start working at it that way? MARCY: Yes. You can get pretty specific with our API. The GitHub for axe-core has our entire API configuration. You can get pretty specific. You can filter by tags. I imagined we're going to talk a little bit more about what WCAG is but there's a set of standards that you can break accessibility down into things that you can actually assert that they are either accessible or not. There's all different kinds of what we call success criteria. All of our rules are mapped to these actual guidelines and standards because that means that our tests are helping you solve things that are actually helpful so you could filter by the different levels. Maybe you want to configure it with custom rules. We have some additional products for that. You can get pretty specific with what you want it to run. ROBERT: It's extensible too so you can add your own stuff. MARCY: You can and we do a lot of work with some of our clients to actually help them write custom roles so that's a service that we offer. But the API is pretty configurable on the JavaScript side so you can do quite a bit of configuring on your own as well, which is cool. ROBERT: That is pretty awesome. You alluded to WCAG, I guess now we know how you can integrate a testing library into your JavaScript apps, let's take a step back a little bit and what exactly is accessibility and then you can start explaining WCAG because WCAG is a very big document that tells you how to go and be accessible. CHARLES: I assume WCAG is some acronym? MARCY: It is. Peeling that back a little bit to what is accessibility. I'm more on the digital side. There is physical accessibility as well for spaces. But when we're talking about digital accessibility, we're talking about making apps and websites that work for people with a broad range of abilities. Say, you had color blindness or a low vision or you're fully blind, you would need to be able to zoom in, you need high-contrast colors, you might use a screen reader if you're blind. But then there's other categories. People might actually fall into more than one category including motor disabilities, where maybe you can't use a mouse and you have to use a keyboard only or a keyboard with one button, which is how we think about a switch control --that's another device. You might be deaf or hard of hearing and need transcripts or close captions so any audio or video content needs an alternative of some kind. Then there's cognitive disabilities where people have learning disabilities. Maybe the language used on a website is too vague or too marketing copy speak and we need to simplify, people with traumatic brain injury like Stephen Hawking has ALS. I discovered at some point in my career that I could actually make the web a better place by supporting all different kinds of people. That's really what it's about for me is doing good craftsmanship and making sure that you're actually making things as accessible as you can. The WCAG thing that we mentioned, it stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. It's just that. It's a set of guidelines, sort of a map to help you get there. You have to actually interpret those guidelines and put in the work to do it. The guideline is just a guideline but it gives us a really good roadmap of how to implement all of these different areas of accessibility. CHARLES: I actually had a question and this is a little bit harkening back to the discussion about the axe-core but also kind of straddling. How do you spur adoption, both the technology and the value inside of your development team? You know, we definitely make our web apps as accessible as we can because we have Rob on the team. But for teams that don't have Rob, how do you spurred option? How do you pitch it to your team and to your management structure? Like testing. Testing used to be controversial. I think in some pockets, it still is but it was something that you had to pitch or agile methodologies was something that you had to pitch. Now it's kind of accepted. It's a core-value of development, I think. I hope. MARCY: Definitely more so. I agree. CHARLES: Do you see a future where making applications accessible is just a tenet of development in the modern era and how do we get to that point? How do we pitch our teams to adopt that value? MARCY: Part of what I'm trying to do is meet developers where they're at and make tools that make it really easy and free to integrate things so it doesn't cost you anything to npm install a library and pull it in your project or to use a free browser extension. What we're trying to do is really help developers get there by lowering the barriers, just kind of a funny way to put it because that's what we're doing with accessibility is removing barriers for people that get access to things. I'm pretty optimistic about it. We talked a lot in the accessibility world about education is really needed because often, it's just that people don't know about it. I've made it my mission to spread the word as much as possible by doing talks and blog posts and just trying to get as many people on board as possible, instead of making them feel bad about it like, "Oh, you don't know about this? You're terrible." ROBERT: Oh man, you're speaking to me. MARCY: "-- You can do this." I try to bring people along and make them feel welcome because it's not really a fun experience to be like, "Oh you're bad because you didn't do this. You don't think about this thing." That's what I try to do. ROBERT: One of my first experiences in accessibility was like somebody giving me that moral argument like, "You're ruining people's lives. They can't do things on their computer." I just remember the response I had and it wasn't that, "Oh, you're right. I should go make this accessible. It was more of like I had a flight or fight response. I start to justify the reasons I didn't do and that wasn't a good experience so the way you put it, like meet the developers where they're at, I love that because that's how I've been operating too. I think accessibility is just another engineering problem and it can be an engineering problem that would be fun to solve. The accessibility matrix gets really hard and hairy as you get into it like -- CHARLES: Oops! Jargon alert! What is the accessibility matrix? Does the accessibility matrix has Neo? ROBERT: The different AT combos and since my experience stems from screen readers -- MARCY: Assistive technologies? ROBERT: Yeah, assistive technologies -- I'm doing a poor job here -- Basically, you have three levels that you work with here. It's the operating system, the type of assistive technology and if we're talking about the web, it's the browser. You could have like the matrix, the beaten path is MacOS, VoiceOver and Safari. That's going to be your matrix. Then on Windows, it could be Windows JAWS and Internet Explorer or Windows NVDA, which is another screen reader on Windows. JAWS is also a screen reader. The browser for NVDA would be Firefox. Then it can just fork in any of those different combinations that you could possibly imagine that makes it hard to debug for. But that's why I think this is a cool programming problem is because we can build awesome tools to help us do this and test for it like aXe. MARCY: Yeah. I would also argue that it's almost even more of a design problem. It's part of the additional challenges that we have to get our design friends and colleagues on board as well because the more that they are thinking about it before they handed off to us, the less we're going to be caught in these situations where we have to make it work in one browser and assistive technology but then it's broken somewhere else because we're trying to use really experimental APIs or we're just trying to do things differently for the mouse versus the keyboard. I can tell you that could be really difficult. The more we're thinking about making things straightforward and intuitive from the design side, not to say the easier job is going to be but the more successful, I think we can be as a team because it's more than just developments responsibility. There's good resources for designers as well, like a web accessibility for designers. If you just Google that, there's a great checklist from WebAIM. I think it's helpful to make it inclusive to people that we work with, not just in the development side because we really want them to set us up for success or else were really just fixing problems that not at their core. You know what I mean? ROBERT: Yeah, as they come down the pipe, we're kind of dealing with them instead of getting ahead of it. CHARLES: That reminds me actually of an experience that I had, a pair programming with Rob, probably about a year ago as we were making an interaction model for a select box. This was for a custom client. We actually stripped it away and we're like, "Let's just focus on what is the state machine behind this thing," so we drew it out on the board and it turned out that we were really just capturing the interaction apart from any rendering so we had a very strong model. With each state's transition, we were able to basically radiate that information with a screen reader in this case. But it was actually very trivial to do because we've actually forgotten about the DOM, forgotten about the fact that we were actually chasing a visual interaction and like I said, what is the actual user interaction? What is the information coming in and coming out? It turned out once we kind of flush that out and have developed that, hanging the interface on that skeleton was very easy and we could do it in multiple media. It feels like a similar concept where if your designers are very upfront about really exploring the information architecture of an application then being able to represent that information architecture in multiple forms becomes much easier because the joints and beams are very, very clear and they aren't bound to a particular form of representation. MARCY: Yeah, I think it a way that's definitely true. One challenge I would issue for this part of prototyping would be to consider all of the user inputs. Make sure that you're considering a keyboard user hitting an escape key to close that select or maybe they're using a screen reader on a touch device and like the single finger swipe, it's already allocated when that screen reader is running so if you have an interface that was only swipe left or right and there were no other affordances like buttons that you could actually activate, that would be an unusable interface to a mobile screen reader user. What really helps to make that information architecture stand up or hold out when you're developing it, like stay true to your vision through the process is making sure that you're considering all of those user inputs. Sometimes, developers aren't thinking about keyboard user so they're not thinking about focus styles, really trying to activate it another way. I do think that's a helpful exercise. ROBERT: Yeah, and to be fair at Frontend developers, we already have a lot to think about. It's just a lot to juggle so I can understand that's why we have tools like aXe. But what Charles is talking about, I think is actually kind of neat is we were experimenting with accessibility-first development so the people do TDD -- test driven development -- and I was trying to see if we could build something. I wanted to see if what we're writing would yield better software if we did it with an accessibility in mind from the outset. I think that's true. It was a more accessible typeahead. It was better, more well-defined user experience around the typeahead and it was because we thought about accessibility and all of the different edge cases. We really boil it down to the core problem. CHARLES: Right. We were driving it first with keys and nonstandard interaction methods. It meant that we actually got more clear interaction model lying underneath. It was decoupled from the actions that drove it completely because we had to support too from the get go. ROBERT: I thought that was neat. CHARLES: Yeah that was a fun exercise. You know, we should have blog about that because I think that actually results in better software. ROBERT: Yeah, I had a conference talk brewing in there somewhere. Just never got around to it. Talking about the web accessibility guidelines. There's different levels to it. Now, you have an A, AA, and AAA. What do those mean and where does that play into ARIA roles and stuff? MARCY: There's WCAG 2.0 and actually 2.1 is an update that they're working on right now but WCAG 2.0 is -- ROBERT: Oh, yeah. I saw that. MARCY: Yeah, there's some new stuff coming out. It's mainly for low-vision users and mobile touch things. But the WCAG 2.0 is the blessed standard that we're working with right now and the levels are different conformance levels. There's different things that you can achieve with A, AA, or AAA. Most people go for AA. AAA is pretty restrictive in what you can do and if you make it support WCAG 2.0 AA, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be intuitive to use. You could make it technically conformant but it won't necessarily be that beautiful or accessible. There's a bit of a dance that we have to do around that to meet these guidelines but do them in an intentional way so that we're actually making something usable. I think that goes back to that idea of craftsmanship and caring about your user to know if this actually going to work for them. There's a number of success criteria in WCAG that are broken up into different categories. There's perceivable, operable, understandable and robust. Within each of those, there's all kinds of different checkpoints that you can look at to inform how do I make this keyboard accessible. There's all kinds of really helpful documentation. That's the WCAG guidelines and within each of those, there are a number of different ways that you can code something. As I'm sure you know, there are infinite ways to code the same thing, pretty much and part of what that cover is techniques for making things accessible. They'll tell you all about Native HTML and what tools you can use within that standard. Then there's this other standard called WAI-ARIA and that's the Web Accessibility Initiative – Accessible Rich Internet Applications. That was originally created back in the day when we didn't have as many browser APIs and we didn't have great ways to expose accessibility information to screen readers. They made this API in browsers that implemented that you can actually bolt on some of the same information that you get from HTML. It's helpful if you're writing as VG or XML, where you just don't have those built in semantics so we have things ARIA role states and properties. You may have seen things like 'role="button"' or 'role="main"' or 'role="search"'. You might see that somewhere and that is just exposing programmatically bolting on a role to any element. You could put on 'div role="button"' and there's a little more that goes into that to make it an accessible button. Anytime we mentioned -- ROBERT: The tab index. MARCY: Yeah, the tab index. You have to make sure you have a keyboard event but that would be a programmatic way to create a button element. You should always start with the native button element because you get all that stuff for free but ARIA gives us an API to actually implement accessibility information. You'll see those techniques come up a lot in WCAG of how you can accomplish the same thing multiple ways. Those are some of the things that we test for in our animated tests in aXe. We check to make sure that you've only use roles that are actual roles because there is a set standard of them. We check to make sure that all of the ARIA values that you might use are actually allowed for that. Sometimes, if you're using 'role="list"' for whatever reason, you can't use a real list. It is possible to create a list with ARIA but if you had the wrong child role or something, that's a pretty easy thing that we can flag with aXe so we're sort of saving you from yourself. It helps me sometimes when I get a role wrong because we're human and we do make mistakes. There's a lot of things to remember so that's pretty key technique that aXe will help you with. That's making sure that your ARIAs used correctly because it is pretty easy -- ROBERT: That's really nice. MARCY: -- to get it wrong, to be honest. ROBERT: Yes. I've definitely done that. Being through the spec document is not the most fun. Trying to read the standards language is a little bit complicated so having a tool like aXe is really helpful for me to pick my way through it like, "aXe will tell me that this is wrong," so it narrows the problem set down for me where I can go and look at the standard and kind of tunnel vision in on that one, rather than get overwhelmed looking at that whole standard documents like there's so much here. MARCY: Yes, there is. One thing that might help with the is the initiative that people are working on called the ARIA Practices Guide, the ARIA Authoring Practices and it sort of breaks down these techniques into what is the keyboard navigation model for that component or it will break it into known patterns. This is really helpful also for designers to know what are some known patterns and how can I implement accessibly. They can really help you jumpstart to using those patterns with this more easily digestible information to tell you how to do it correctly. That has come up in the last few years that I found really useful. ROBERT: That's awesome. I think I've seen this. Is it where they tell you like, "If you're going to reimplement a checkbox, here's how you would do with ARIA?" MARCY: Exactly. I've dropped a link in the chat so we'll expose that in the show notes, I'm sure. There's more resources out there now that are really helpful. There's another one called ARIA in HTML and that one is also from the W3C and it's a note on using ARIA and HTML. That one I found to be very useful as well because they tell you this first, second, third, fourth, and fifth rules of ARIA use. The first rule of ARIA use is if you can use a Native HTML element or attribute, you should absolutely use the built-in one first. That's a big -- ROBERT: Yeah, let's stop reinventing. MARCY: Yeah, you know it's tempting because you can create these custom elements and try to bolt on ARIA but the reality is that if you're trying to make it really backwards compatible, it's just so much easier to support the native things. There is an assisted technology called Dragon NaturallySpeaking, that's a dictation method and they didn't support ARIA until 2014 so you can easily imagine some of your user base with an older assistive technology. That might be completely broken for them so that's why we really push using the native things first just because of the better support on every platform. CHARLES: I have a question about the test automation. We've been talking a lot about aXe in the way that you can do this. Did I get it right? Are my roles correct? And all these things. What's an example of something that you just can't test for in an automated fashion? It just requires human interaction just to perceive it. I mean, this would be right now, kind of in the visual sphere, the state of automation for testing like did I break the layout still requires a human. What are examples of that in terms of accessible interface where you just do the things that you have to be on the lookout for that you can't cover with automation right now? MARCY: I think context and content are some of the most difficult like writing good all text. That can be really challenging just because what makes a good alt for an image and that supposed to be a text alternative to say, "This is something useful," and Facebook has solved that by using artificial intelligence to dynamically guess what's in an image. A blind colleague of mine that works there has written about and he said he always felt left out when he would read his news feed and someone would be talking about their first love or some kind of vague status update. With this new feature, it could say, "Oh, this image that they're talking about their love is a pepperoni pizza," or something where -- [Laughter] MARCY: It's really missing the context so they've started to do automatic all text. For us doing accessibility checks, we try to keep our solution as light weight as possible and without false positives. We can check whether you have an all attribute missing like you don't even have the alt attribute at all which means that the file name would be read in the screen reader which is often terrible, depending on what your filenames are so we can check if that's missing but we can't really tell you what would make a better alt attribute, if you already have one. That's one is a bit difficult. There's another one that we're working on right now with color contrast where we can't really tell if you have a background image that's behind some text. If it has multiple pixel color values in it, even if we could read those colors, it gets really hard for us to say whether text meets color contrast when it's over an image for multiple reasons. That one's a bit tricky. I think there are some other examples throughout WCAG that we can only automate. Depending on which rule set you're using, we estimate between 30% to 40% of issues, we can actually catch with automated tests so there is quite a bit that we still need humans for. But however, I think some of these really basic ones that we can check to help you do those easy wins so that you're not getting messed up by using the attribute Aria-role when it's just role. Those kind of things. It's like we're helping you so you can save that time for those more complex task that might require a human. There's definitely no substitute for trying to use the keyboard to make sure that your app is usable from the keyboard. Test it with a screen reader, you can find people in the web accessibility Slack that might be willing to help you test it, if you're extra nice or maybe you can give them a gift card or something. There is an organization called Knowbility and they have this thing called Access Works where if you need to find a user with a disability to deduce a user testing for you because that's a great thing to do. It's very important. They can help you, as a business think up with someone who can test your app. I would definitely check out Access Works. That's really what's the missing piece. As a developer, I'm okay using a screen reader after doing accessibility for a few years but it's not my primary way of navigating so it's really helpful to have real users to test your app and that's a good way to find someone to actually test it. That sort of makes up the rest so you can get that really valuable feedback. ROBERT: I'm a firm believer in testing but also, I really do think a lot of accessibility work is just kind of empathy building and the way you do that is just sit down and actually use this assistive tech that these people will be using. In that way, you can understand as you're building it, how somebody might move their screen or cursor over the top of this and you can start to think about what the screen will read off and stuff like that. I think using a screen reader as a developer is powerful. But I agree, it will never reach the level like my mom that has been using a screen reader for seven years now. I'll never be able to use it as well as she does. It actually putting in the hands of people that do this day-to-day and live this. A far better idea and that goes beyond accessibility too. You want to user test all your apps anyway. MARCY: Yeah, exactly. I think that should be a big thing that we demand just from our organizations like how you were saying it was kind of controversial. I feel like user testing is another flavor of that where we have a bit of emotional tide of these things that we create and we want them to be perfect in the way that we have envisioned but not everyone interacts with things the same and it's really humbling to watch someone use something that you made and have it completely not get it at all. I think that's a really valuable experience. I've watched my mom or my dad or people try to use something that we assume is really intuitive and it's just not. We look at the web all day -- day-in and day-out being professionals and it's really helpful to show it to people who maybe aren't as fluent, aren't digital natives like that. CHARLES: We talked about actual user testing. We talked about the checking where you render your application and you run a set of checks. Do you have any experience with actually -- this is kind of an idea that just occurred to me, although we did a little bit of it when we were doing native applications -- using the accessible interfaces to actually drive your acceptance tests? Is that anything that you have experience with? Because it seems like on the face of it, you've got this assistive technology that surfaces the key levers of your application so is it a good idea to grab those levers from within your test case? Within your acceptance test to manipulate your application and thereby kind of front load your accessibility because in order to verify it, you must have those levers in place. MARCY: Yeah, from understanding your question correctly, you're wanting to just run your tests using accessibility features? CHARLES: Yes. For example, when we write our acceptance tests in our application, what we do is as part of setting them up, say we want to click here and I want to enter this text into this text box and I want to move this over here and that implies actually dispatching mouse events, keyboard events and then also being able to find the elements in the DOM that I want to dispatch those events on so we're kind of doing it in, I think we use CSS selectors to find them and then we use the jQuery event interface to actually create the events and send them to those elements. But it seems that part of ARIA roles or something else is like identifying the role that this element has in your application and basically saying, "For my test cases, I'm going to use these roles and I'm going to use these things and I'm going to use different access methods, keyboard mouse or whatever to manipulate my interface." Does that makes sense? MARCY: Yeah. ROBERT: I think this makes sense in the native world where in order to get the label, I think you have to use the accessibility label. CHARLES: They do that when you're functionally testing iOS apps so why not -- ROBERT: Does it port to the web, basically. CHARLES: Yeah, does that port to the web? MARCY: It does -- CHARLES: It's really long, way of saying that, I guess. Sorry you all. [Laughter] MARCY: No, and I wanted to clarify because I was wondering if you're talking about driving it with actual assistive technology, which we can't quite yet. We don't have any tools for that. But yes, you should -- ROBERT: We should explore that in Ember. MARCY: Yeah, we just don't have the hooks for that. Maybe Python and NVDAs, since it's open source, maybe AppleScripts. CHARLES: What would that look like to drive it with assistive technologies? ROBERT: We talked to some people at Apple with Ember accessibility team and if I remember correctly, we could only drive VoiceOver on MacOS with AppleScripts but there was no way to do it in any other way so you only could do it with VoiceOver on MacOS and that was still kind of murky. MARCY: Yeah, exactly. The idea would be, rather than just testing the browser, we would actually be able to run a simulator programmatically, to know is the screen reader actually exposing this information. Because a lot of it is there are things that get lost in translation, sometimes where we're following best practices and standards because we have this agreement that people who implement browsers and screen readers are going to follow those standards. It's definitely is not always smooth sailing with that. But there's sort of this disconnect between the browser testing and then actually firing it up in the screen reader and make sure it worked. We take that on faith a lot of time, which is getting back to your original question, why it's so valuable to have tests that use these interaction methods. Absolutely, either in your unit tests or even in your integration test, they can live in either place to have tests that assert and closes with the escape key or it operates with the enter key or whatever the user interaction should be, that we have tests that assert that because that way, if you leave your team or heaven forbid, you got hit by a bus or something, you have a test coverage that makes a contract of how this component should work and you have accessibility support, actually built into your test infrastructure. That is super valuable. At least we know that that part of it is there. We know we can drive it from the keyboard, which is how a lot of screen readers work. They operate on top of the keyboard so we can get really far just by having basic keyboard support. Then, if you pull in an API like axe-core, you can have it tell you if you were using ARIA wrong or something. It's sort of a combination of both where those feature tests in your actual project where you're writing something that it works with the escape key, those are custom tests for your application. I find that they're really valuable just to have in there, especially if you work on a component library or something reusable so that everybody who is contributing knows how this thing is supposed to work. I think that is really valuable. ROBERT: Absolutely. I want to talk about accessibility in single-page apps. The problem with accessibility in single-page apps is while using a screen reader, you click a link and to the screen reader user, all it says is the link was pressed. They don't actually know that the content has changed. But in Ember, we kind of solve this by focusing the outlet that has changed but in other frameworks, in your experience everywhere else, how do you combat this? What are the best ways of attacking this? CHARLES: Yeah, what are the problems that you encounter in single-page applications? MARCY: I've done quite a bit of research and blogging and conference talks on this. I'm working on the Angular team for a while. The issue with the single-page app is the page isn't being refreshed when you make a raving change or something happens dynamically. The user's focus is never refresh to the top of the page so they don't hear a title change or things like that. There's different techniques that you can employ to make that experience more accessible. The first and foremost tool to have in your toolbox is focus management so that you're programmatically sending the user's focus to this new content. Say, I have a sidebar with links in it and I click one of them, I can send focus to content wherever it loaded on the page. That way, they are both alerted to the new content because depending on where you send it. There's different techniques for this but often, we will send focus to the wrapping element so that everything will be read aloud and you can accomplish that by using tab index of -1 in your HTML. That will make this wrapper catch the focus, essentially but it won't add it to the tab order of the entire page. That's a technique that we used to shuffle focus around. I've also seen people use what's called an ARIA Live Region where you have this element somewhere on your page that's not visible. It has to be rendered so you can't use 'display: none' but you can basically pipe messages to these live regions to announce what's happening on the screen. I've just saw a React example where they put an ARIA Live attribute just on that wrapping element, instead of the focus management so anytime new content went into that element, it would just be announced. The challenge with that is that you can't always control everything on the page. That works if you control everything and you know that only this one element is getting updated at the time. But often, we work in this big ecosystem where there's a bunch of things happening. Depending on how complex your app is, you might need some sort of a focus manager, some sort of a utility that will keep track of what's focused and routed around at a correct place. That's the biggest tool for creating accessible single-page apps, that's focused management. I mean, not only for the reading content purpose but also to have their focus in the more accurate place so if they hit tab or they try to start interacting with something that they're in the right part of the page. A good example, if you think about like a modal window -- a modal window may open as a new layer over something -- that requires focus management on open so that your focus is sent into it, either to the first focusable element or to the wrapper. Then when you hit escape or close the modal, it just send your focus back. ROBERT: To the previously focused element, right? MARCY: Exactly, so that if you are using a keyboard and you can't actually use a trackpad or a mouse to get back then you're in the right place or if you're screen reader user and you can't even see the screen, then you're always in the right spot. That's actually, I think really cool. Something that's become more common place with dynamic JavaScript apps is that we can do these really cool focus management techniques. I think they're really cool, they can be challenging but that is something that we definitely need to think about as developers of single-page apps. ROBERT: Absolutely, especially since none of the single-page app frameworks out there were libraries. Actually maybe with the exception of your work on Angular, they don't come with a router focused-library built in so this is something that you have to actually think about and then pull in and do yourself. Does Angular have it, by default? MARCY: No, we never added a focus manager utility. There were some things to try and clean up that HTML, which ended up being, honestly worse than the original problem. But I've written a blog post about focus management techniques. I just dropped that in the chat. There's a smashing magazine article I wrote and it really is framework-agnostic so it sort of covers all of the things that you need to think about if you're writing a client-rendered application using Ember, React or Angular. It is something that we have to think about as developers because from the framework level, it's impossible to know what the right situation would be in your app in a given moment so we can only get so far with magic at the framework level. It's something I would like to see more of. Maybe if there is some sort of a layer manager, I think that is a tool that someone could write that would be super useful -- to make sort of an intelligent layer managing system for focus management. I've heard the Facebook team talked about how they do it internally but it's not open source so I have yet to see an open source solution for this. We have to tackle it in our own apps but once you know that that's the thing, you can really make sure that you're covering it. If you have someone with a visual disability or impairment that try and use your app, they'll probably uncover that problem pretty quickly. That's the value of user testing in case you forget. Maybe there's a few views -- ROBERT: Need to sell it. MARCY: Yeah, or maybe with your application, if you don't have visible focus styles turned on, you might not see that the focus isn't being sent. That is one trick, I will tell you in development. If you're working with focus management, turn the focus outlines on and then if you were trying to send focus before it got fully rendered or something because it has to actually be rendered to catch the focus. That is good debug flag, if you can all agree on the focus styles, for all users. I found that to be really useful in our app. You just to have those turned on so you can debug it. ROBERT: And make it really loud like this is a giant red outline. MARCY: Yeah, then you'll know, if you forgot to add tab index of -1, to make it catch the focus or like I said, maybe there's a rendering thing where you need to wait a tick by using a set time out or something. That is a good technique that I've used recently. ROBERT: Awesome. Basically, what it boils down to in single-page apps is manage your focus and enhance your focus, some might say. MARCY: Yeah, let's think about keyboard ergonomics, like if you are doing things dynamically on the screen and then you want to start typing, I think the most common example I see is autofocus. The developers, even if they aren't thinking about accessibility, they'll ask for autofocus. That in a way is focus management. The difference with autofocus is that you can only use it once and it will send your focus there automatically. But in a similar way, that's the idea of what we want is to get the user's focus point into the right spot so that they can do the right activity on the screen and they know what content they're looking at. ROBERT: Right. Sometimes, it's like navigating around a website with your keyboard, that's like power users who have Vim or Emacs or anybody that's a power user of computer that doesn't like to leave the home row, you can make your application awesome for you to use and also lay the groundwork for accessibility, if you can navigate your website with just a keyboard. MARCY: Exactly. ROBERT: Let's try to pitch it to people in that way. It's still a developer problem. CHARLES: I like that because it really highlights the fact that there is this kind of deep interaction model. The user actually is focused on one thing at a time in the application and if you track that, then it's going to be a benefit for all of your users. If you are deliberate about thinking like this is the subject of interest at this moment. You're just going to reap a lot of benefit for everybody. ROBERT: Keep coming back to it, building accessible applications yields a better application for everybody. MARCY: Absolutely. It might enable you to support some futuristic device that you haven't even thought of yet. If you have your actions decoupled from the actual input and you can do everything declaratively, that really makes it easier to try and support of use cases you haven't thought of like we need to borrow up that other keyboard combination or some touch device. It just really helps to not have everything buried in a jQuery event. ROBERT: Yes. [Laughter] MARCY: Like, "Oh, man I need to call that same functionality for multiple events. Crap." You need to decouple that real quick. ROBERT: "Let's obstruct this." CHARLES: Right. I think we're about the time. I know you've got a hard stop. You got some skiing to do. MARCY: I do. CHARLES: So we will let you get up on the mountain but thank you so much for coming by. This is been a great conversation. ROBERT: Yes, thank you for dropping all the knowledge. CHARLES: Yeah, I'm feeling lots of knowledge right on top of my head -- MARCY: Awesome. CHARLES: -- That I got to go and process. But for everybody else out there, I would say go experiment with aXe. The idea is going to be easy for developers. I know I'm going to experiment with it and then you said, there was a browser extension as well to help you out and probably call out every website that you ever use, right? MARCY: I'm dropping some links for you, just now. CHARLES: There's some links to go along with the knowledge so go check them out and you are @MarcySutton on Twitter? MARCY: That is correct. CHARLES: All right. Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming by. MARCY: Yeah, no problem. Thanks so much for having me.

Descripcion del programa Encuesta para pedir Feedback Posibles topics, entrevistados y duración del programa Recomendaciones Preguntas rápidas: Jonathan Chacón Quién me ha inspirado: Steve Krug Recomiéndanos un recurso: Wave Recomiéndanos a un invitado: Jakob Nielsen ¿Qué tema te gustaría que tratásemos?: Usabilidad en formularios Contacta con: Jonathan Chacón Twitter Web Links del programa Path to Perf Podcast - Performance and Accesibility ARIA Accessibility and Performance Usability Testing of Inline Form Validation Browsers accesibility support Accessibility in the Platform Screen Readers Device Lab Software Craftsmanship TAW wave Tenon The Browser Accessibility Tree Recomendaciones de Nacho Dos and don'ts on designing for accessibility Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Accessibility Wins A11y Project Contacta con el programa Web de WeCodeSign Twitter de WeCodeSign eMail de WeCodeSign Web de Ignacio Villanueva Twitter de Ignacio Villanueva

今回は、「Webアクセシビリティーって?」というところからスタートして、あれこれ話しています。 Webアクセシビリティーって? Webのアクセシビリティーは制作者だけに責任があるものなの? スクリーン・リーダーって何? こんな内容をお送りします。 収録後記 Webのアクセシビリティーの向上のために、様々な人がそれぞれの立場でいろいろな取り組みをしています。今回のポッドキャストで何となく全体像をつかんでいただけたかもしれません。今後、そういったいろいろな現場で活躍していらっしゃる方などをポッドキャストやメールマガジンの中で紹介していくようなこともできたら良いな、と何となく考えています。「こんな人がいるよ」とか「こんな取り組みがあるよ」とか、そんな情報もお寄せください。 (中根 雅文) 三度目まして！　これが第3回となるポッドキャストですが、どことなく三人にはまだまだ堅さが感じられますね（苦笑）　私自身、ポッドキャストは初めてではないものの、音声だけで情報を伝えることの難しさを改めて感じていたりもします。とはいえ、この三人のことですから、回を重ねるごとにそれぞれの本性というか、キャラクターが出てくることでしょう。「こんなテーマやトピックについて語ってほしい」というリクエストもお待ちしています！（植木 真） スクリーンリーダーっていうのがなんなのか、やっと知ることができました（え？）。「AccSellの教えてちゃん」をもっと精進しまっす！ （山本 和泉） 関連キーワード Web Content Accessibility Guidelines W3Cが策定した、Webコンテンツのアクセシビリティーを確保するために必要な事項をまとめた、コンテンツ制作者向けの指針。1999年5月にバージョン1が発表された後、2008年12月に発表されたバージョン2が現在(2012年10月)における最新版。略称はWCAGで、「ウィーキャグ」トカ「ウーキャグ」とか発音する人もいる。 Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines W3Cが策定した、Webコンテンツを制作するための各種ツール (オーサリング・ツール) に関する開発者向けの指針。オーサリング・ツールが生成するWebページ／サイトのアクセシビリティーを確保するため、またオーサリング・ツールそのもののアクセシビリティーを確保する (障害者など誰にでも使えるようにする) ために必要な事項をまとめている。2000年に初版が策定され、現在次期バージョンの策定作業が進められている。略称はATAGで、「エイタグ」と発音する人もいる。 User Agent Accessibility Guidelines W3Cが策定した、ユーザー・エージェント (ブラウザーなど) に関する開発者向けの指針。Webのアクセシビリティーを向上させるために必要なユーザー・エージェントの振る舞いなどをまとめている。2002年に初版が策定され、現在次期バージョンの検討が進められている。略称はUAAG。 (初期に一部の人が無理矢理適当な発音を試みたことがあったが、定着しなかった。) 関連リンク Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 JAWS for Windows Professional Ver.12.0 日本語版