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Patrick answers questions about what is the proper response when you see someone trying to steal the Eucharist, how to defend the truth of the Immaculate Conception to a non-Christian, he explains what the Byzantine Rite is and talks with a Veteran about the importance of prayer Efrank - Is it a mortal sin to not prevent someone from stealing the Eucharist? Paula - What do you think of the book “Jesus is Calling?” Mary - Can a non-Catholic Man who has had a vasectomy marry in the Catholic Church? Jacob - How do I defend the Immaculate Conception? Patrick responds to a couple of letters thanking him for sharing the news that Peppa Pig is the latest children's program that is indoctrinating our kids Ian - All the Latest Marian Apparitions are happening in non-Latin Mass churches. Ann - What is the Byzantine Rite and what is the history behind it? Mike - There is a soldier's prayer that might be helpful for soldiers coming back and trying to deal with what they did. Vicki - The Little House Series' mom was so perfect that I found it intimidating

Our guest today is Seth Miller, Founder and CEO at Rapchat. Seth is on a mission to democratize music creation with Rapchat's mobile app. Rapchat takes the friction out of making music, and has helped millions of artists unleash their creativity.Seth earned his bachelor's degree in business administration, with an emphasis on management information systems, from Ohio University. Before founding Rapchat, Seth worked as a consultant for Adidas, and an IT Systems Engineer.On the podcast we talk with Seth about bootstrapping his way to signs of product market fit, raising money from strategic partners like Sony Music, and what it's like to have Facebook completely rip off your app.In this episode, you'll learn: Finding the right niche for your app Bootstrapping and early funding Using the right marketing channels for your app Filtering out the wrong users for your app's paid features How to transition your app from free to paid Links & Resources Sony Nico Wittenborn Twitter Adjacent Complex Seth Miller's Links Follow Seth on Twitter Rapchat Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 Seth:We would be dead for sure if I didn't learn how to code. It's an invaluable skill that I'll have in this organization and future organizations. It also just helps me think about things. It's a really great way to look at the world sometimes.00:00:31 David:Hello, I'm your host, David Bernard. And with me as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting. Our guest today is Seth Miller, founder and CEO at Rapchat. Seth is on a mission to democratize music creation with Rapchat's mobile app. It takes the friction out of making music, and has helped millions of artists unleash their creativity on the podcast.We talk with Seth about bootstrapping his way to signs of product market fit. Raising money from strategic partners like Sony, and what it's like to have Facebook completely rip off your app.Hey Seth, welcome to the podcast!00:01:06 Seth:How's it going? Thanks for having me.00:01:07 David:It's been a long time coming. You and I first chatted way back in 2019. You were the first office hour call I ever took at RevenueCat.00:01:18 Seth:Oh, wow. 00:01:19 David:Yeah, going way back in my RevenueCat days. 00:01:22 Jacob:It tells you how bad of a CEO I am that we've never actually spoken on the phone in those two years.00:01:30 Seth:Or how good David was!00:01:31 Jacob:Yeah.00:01:32 Seth:I was sold after one call. I'm like, all right, dude, where do I sign up? How do I get this going? 00:01:37 Jacob:We have a lot of cross connections, because you're an Adjacent portfolio. Nico is a co-investor. We're also both Ohio-based. So, yeah, lots of cover today.00:01:54 Seth:We got to hang out. 00:01:55 Jacob:We should. It's beautiful in Ohio today, but I'm not going to make an Ohio podcast.But, maybe kickoff and tell us, what is Rapchat?00:02:07 Seth:Yeah, absolutely. So, Rapchat is the easiest way to make music on your phone. We have an iOS and Android app. You really just like tap in, and open the app. We have hundreds and thousands of free beats on the app. So, you just pick a beat, you can record over it, and then you can share that anywhere.We have people making full-length studio-quality songs from their phone and sharing it to Instagram and SoundCloud. And then also on the platform, we have a social layer as well. Which is really cool. Pretty much a recording studio in your pocket, with a community, with a social layer.Similar to Visco, or Instagram for music. Our mission is really to democratize music by providing access and tools to the next billion music creators.00:03:01 Jacob:How did you get on this idea?00:03:05 Seth:Well, like just scratching my own itch in the early days. Almost eight years ago when I was in college, apps were really starting to become a thing, and same with social networks and you-do-see platforms that let you create content and share it. You know, the golden era of Vine, Snap, all of that. But there was nothing for music.I also had a hobby of freestyling with my friends. So, we'd get together, throw on beats, and rap, and some people would sing and just create all sorts of stuff. It was something that I noticed that was like, yeah, this should exist on your phone. I should be able to do this with my high school buddies that are on a different campus that I used to do it with.That was really it, just scratching my own itch. Then over time, I think we've really come to realize that there's just this massive opportunity to do this at scale for those that really want to make music and take it seriously.So, I've kind of outgrown my own use case a little bit, even though we have people that come and have fun, but really we're focused on providing tools for the everyday artist that historically has been kind of gatekeeped out of participating in music. So, we try and give them everything we can in their pocket, and still feels like we're only getting started. 00:04:26 Jacob:It's not as easy to pirate logic these days I imagine, like it used to be.00:04:31 Seth:Yeah. Right.00:04:32 David:What did those early days look like? Did you learn to code? Did you have a coding background? What did those early days look like, and when did you get the app out? 00:04:43 Seth:Yeah, I mean, pure chaos and it's not too much different today, you know, it's just a little more organized. yeah, the first version of the iOS app was June, 2014. I think it was June 7th and that was really. I wouldn't even pass as an alpha version think especially with how good some of the test flights are, but, you know, it was very basic.It was, you could open the app record one track over like 10 predefined beats that had to come with the app store bundle, like would even have server side, like beats, and. Like, we just wanted to test that people would do it. And you know, of course the first couple of months, is just getting friends off Facebook and family to download it.But then, I started to notice like, you know, a little bit of traction and then more traction and then basically quit my job. I was like, all right, I gotta, I gotta really go after this. And it, that exactly. That's when I taught myself how to code too, because, I had a lot of help in the early days, just from like friends, faculty members, anyone I could get to work on it But then after, you know, I noticed there's just like basically early signs of product market fit, I guess, if you will now, but people sharing it. I was like, I really want to make updates to this thing and I can't afford any engineers and I don't know anything about fundraising. So it was like the only way I could make any updates and then wrote really shitty code for like three years.And, but got enough traction improved to kind of, you know, enter the startup space, the fundraising space. Now, luckily we have really amazing engineers and I still write some code here and there. That's probably not that great, but, you know, I love it. So,00:06:22 David:Did you have any co-founders? 00:06:24 Seth:Yeah, so we, I mean, we had a team on campus in the early days, that, you know, we're helping out. We've had a lot of people along the way, help out in different parts of the journey it's been. An epic journey, you know, and, lots of ups and downs, but yeah, we've had lots of different people help us out.And, now we have a fully distributed team, and still relatively small 10 people, but, lots of great product builders and, yeah, it's a lot of fun00:06:54 Jacob:Yeah. David can, can probably talk more to the pain of not like having on staff. Like it's not so much. I mean, yeah. I mean, the cost is a thing for sure. But like, I think a bigger thing often is the, the, the turnaround time, right? The iteration time of not having well, you know, even if you're. You know, product person who's non-technical and you have a technical co-founder, there's even like friction there and communicating the ideas.Right. If you're not really in sync. And so having that all in one mind can really like speed things up. And in the early days, that's what it's all about. Right? It's all about iteration speed. It's all about getting, you know, different sticking stuff, different stuff to the wall. As fast as possible to see what takes off.So, that's always the advice saying, I don't know if there's anybody that listen, this is there, there probably are people in the podcast in a similar situation where they're like, maybe they didn't study programming or whatever. Like it's gotta be, I mean, I don't know so that you can, you can go against this.Maybe it's not the case, but it feels like it's probably the best way to invest your time is like, get to the basics, like as fast as you can.00:07:59 Seth:Yeah, I think so. I mean, the amount of time you'll spend trying to like find a co-founder that codes. Sure. The ultimate is like, you find a co-founder you guys gel and like, they know how to code and you know, you know how to do everything else, but like, I dunno, we would be dead for sure. If I didn't learn how to code and it's an invaluable skill that I'll have in this organization and future organizations, it also just helps me like, think about things like it's a really great, like, you know, way to look at the world sometimes.00:08:32 Jacob:Yeah. You're not bamboozled by engineers too, which 00:08:34 Seth:Yeah. Yeah. And I can like talk to engineers and I think like, it really helps me get, buy-in like I can go to the engineering team and be like, yeah, no, tell me the real shit. Like, you know, what's really going on and we can have technical combos as opposed to like, you know, kind of the, I don't know if it's just a whatever stereotype of early CEO that's like, I need this and this is why, and I'm going to go sell and you know, that can get you into trouble and. Yeah. So anyway, I, I'm a huge advocate. I get some people are really, it's a scary thing to learn. It does take time. You're really bad for00:09:08 Jacob:Ever, basically, I don't think, I don't think you ever get, you're not going to be good. Like every engineer you work with is going to be like, oh right, like this 00:09:16 Seth:Exactly, But I do think it's, it's really helpful, especially those in the early days. Cause like, trust me, you can look at Google and be like, oh, I need to raise money for my startup, which is what I did.And eventually we did, you know, do some fundraising, but It's again, the amount of time you'd spend trying to figure out how to fundraise and just jump in this like really deep ocean versus, you know, a skill that you'll have for life that will instantly, you know, provide value in your current job even.Yeah. I'm, I'm all for it. I mean, I try to get people to code no matter what, 00:09:47 Jacob:I guess like you mentioned kind of that, that early stage. Finding product market fit. Like how long if something's called wandering the desert, but like how long did you wander the desert? Like how long until, and then when you first started to see those indications, because probably market fits this, like it's, it's a bad term because like, It means different things to different people and founders can deceive themselves all the time.And, you know, even, even YC is like, I think one of the best orgs for defining this and communicating this there, their definition is not very good right there. Like, it just feels like it's going faster. It's like, okay. Like you can still lie to yourself really easily. So what did that look like for you?00:10:26 Seth:Yeah, no, I could not agree more and could go on lots of, lots of rants about this, or just in general, like, you know, benchmarks or anything like that. I think. You know, and I'll just speak for myself. Cause like you said, it's like totally different for every company. but the, the first signs is when I remember I was working the first and only job I had out of college, I was a systems engineer at progressive insurance.So I was in their data center, literally like working on servers, had no idea what I was doing, but, I was there for like six months and I remember I was like at work, searching Twitter, like Rapchat on Twitter, just to. And then over time, like more and more people just kept sharing their tracks to Twitter and like saying how much they love it.And then app store reviews were a big thing. I mean, it's just clear that we like, like people truly loved the product. and that was kind of the first step. And you can't really like quantify. It's not like, oh, there was a thousand Twitter it's, you know, quotes or. 00:11:29 Jacob:You weren't measuring like day one retention, day 30 retention. 00:11:32 Seth:Was, I learned that I learned all that stuff over time and like, we track, we track a lot of that stuff, but I'm telling you like the most important stuff was like the qualitative in the early days.Then, but you need qualitative at scale. Like it's not just like your friend, you know, it's like, plus you know, 50,000 I may use at that time or whatever it was. And I think that. That was really key. Like the first thing is like, people were actually able to record music on their phone and share it.Some people were really good at it. Like this is, this is kind of like obvious now, but it wasn't back in the day. Like there was like technical challenges there where, you know, people didn't think it would be a thing. Some people still don't think it's like a billion opportunity, but like, you know, we had to prove out that people would really record music on their phone.Like that was, it seems so obvious, 00:12:21 Jacob:What was the propeller heads app? gosh, what was that called? 00:12:25 Seth:Had a few, I00:12:26 Jacob:There was, there was, I remember this bad podcasting. I don't know the name of it, but I remember there being some really key like music apps that were kind of around that era. Right. It was like, the phones were finally getting fast enough to be able to do this without like just falling over and dying in 00:12:41 Seth:Yeah. Yeah. 00:12:42 Jacob:Timeframe.00:12:42 Seth:And Andrew, it's still like really freaking hard to get. Right. But I mean, over time now we have like a process of like, how we think about, you know, does our product work for a certain market? And it's changed. Like I would say you never really—we're not in a desert, but you never stop wandering Like your product evolves over time. The market evolves over time. We've seen different personas evolve and grow in our community over time. and now, like I said, in the early days, a lot of it was providing just like a fun, social media app that was music-based for the F for everyone. And now, while we do have those components, it's much more about providing a really great recording studio in your pocket with a community of creators for the everyday artists.Like, so now we've actually. Zoned in a little more and focused on one or two specific segments. And we have really strong metrics engagement, now subscriptions for that specific persona. So I think that's a big thing. Like in the early days, you'd read all these blogs and, you know, what to look at for retention or what to look at for product market fit.But a lot of times it's not married with context of like personas. And so for the first three years, I mean, we were getting whatever millions of downloads a year. But like this person, in India's here to have fun. This person in Georgia is here to take it seriously. And we were just looking at it all blended.And so like, once we learned to actually be like, no, like when now we literally ask, like, why are you here? Like, what are your aspirations? And, then we view things through that lens. That's been one of the biggest unlocks, like, it it seems obvious again, but. If you don't think that way then in the early days, you're just kind of like wondering like, well, why is my day one retention?Like not changing. It's like, well, you know, you're getting 30% of your users from this like really bad channel and they're low intent. And like, you should filter those out. because that's noise.00:14:42 Jacob:I it's so tricky though, because I was in a similar position when we were trying to work on growth elevate. And, you can, you can really easily. That thing where founders are trying to lie to themselves, it's a very easy way to lie to yourself. Right. And be like, yeah, I have a great retention if I just ignore all the users with the bad retention.Right. And it's like,00:15:02 Seth:Yeah. Yeah.00:15:03 Jacob:I think context is the important thing. Right. It's like, okay, like what are the actual context for this? And I mean, it makes me think of, the photo room, a founder who we had on a couple, a couple of weeks ago. I don't know the ordering of the pockets come down, but they also had a similar situation where they found it, like within their greater per user base, like a persona where retention was really strong intent was really high.And then it's kind of great because it gives you, I feel like from a founder and product perspective, it gives you license to focus right. A little bit and be like, okay, like we found this profile, that's going to be our most important. And we're going to like really put our energy here. And it kind of clarifies a lot of like things for the, you know, product decision-making. 00:15:43 David:One thing to interject on this real quick is that, I think a lot of people underestimate just how amazing Facebook got at doing this for founders. Because that the feedback loop and Facebook's algorithm and how much data that had on people prior to app tracking transparency and apple is kind of unwound all of this, but that's part of why Facebook has worked as the like user acquisition main channel for so many apps to grow is because all of what you were talking about, Jacob, and you were talking about.They just do it automatically with really sophisticated eye AI and way more data than you're ever going to have to understand people's intent and the, the, the types of people who are going to. Oh, well in your app. So when you're feeding those subscription monetization events back to Facebook and Facebook's experimenting with $50,000 a year money, what are they really doing?They're doing what you can do. And now with app tracking transparency, we're going to have to do it more is they're finding those personas and then advertising to them to get you that return on investment. I think people underestimate how great Facebook did it at finding the. Amazing personas that work in your app.But now, like it's kind of back to doing what you've done. So I'd love to hear a little bit more to, you know, early on just seeing it on a, you know, Rapchat trending on Twitter and like following all that stuff. Like, I think a lot of. Over instrument early and just need to like hit some critical mass first.But then as you get a little further along, you know, you've talked about building this like product market fit engine, like how, like, what's your, what's your stack. And then how do you think about measuring and learning about those personas and then kind of building for them and orienting the app around that?00:17:44 Seth:I mean, there's a lot there. So, I mean, again, for context, like we are now just getting into that game, which is like the worst time ever to get into the game where, you know, we're actually trying to bring those users in with our dollars at00:17:59 Jacob:Maybe, but, but you know, as it's been disrupted, right. So there's opportunity. You, you you'll have probably a better time than somebody who's trying to adapt from something they got used00:18:07 Seth:Right. We're going the other way. Pretty much like, so. 00:18:10 David:Facebook charged a lot to do it. That's the thing it's like, they captured a lot of that revenue by figuring it out for you, but if you can figure it out and then find those channels that reach those personas in a more cash efficient way you actually are at, at, in a better place. It's just more work on your side of things, but then you understand your customers better.So there's benefits to,00:18:30 Jacob:So, so maybe Seth put it on a timeline for me. So like you said, 2008, 2009. So you're, you're getting on a, a decade of, of working on this, right. It's been, it's been, how long have you been working on. 00:18:41 Seth:2013,00:18:43 Jacob:Sorry. Sorry. How are you telling me a college point? This is before the podcast. Sorry. I'm very good broadcaster.It's yeah, 2013. So it's still okay. 7, 8, 8, 8 years or so. So when, when did, when I guess like we are, when did to kind of lead into David's question, like when did you kind of transition from like, maybe it's it's recently, but like at some point, did you go like, okay, like how do I grow this thing? Like, what's the, what's the, you know, I see this happening a lot.Consumer apps cause consumer apps really, it maybe they're inherently viral, but they almost always have to have something to drive the growth. Like some sort of mechanism. When did, did you ever have a point where you started transitioning, start to think about that more as part of the company-building 00:19:26 Seth:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I mean to date, like, you know, we've had over 7 million people create music in over a hundred countries and over 80% of that's been organic. So it's like, you know, we've really, that was our whole thing forever because we didn't have capital. we may have had capital, but we didn't have enough to have remotely a good budget so we really, yeah, we, we kind of tweaked and refined our viral loops in the early days because that's all we had. So when I say scrolling on Twitter, that was like the first instance before you could eat, there was a time period where you couldn't even post on Twitter, you had to open the messages in the app, and then we made it really simple.Again, all this shit's so obvious now, and now every app does it, but you know, we made it really simple to post a link to your Rapchat to your Twitter and your Facebook. I remember it was only Twitter and Facebook, like two ugly square buttons. because those were the things at the time. And that worked though.I mean, we saw a 10x Return on that. And I mean, to date, you know, that type of flow, come in, create content, share externally, bring your friends in. Some of them will either have the app. Some of them will go to the landing page on the website, download the app, that loop. I mean, that's been millions and millions of downloads.So, you know, we're kind of lucky in that sense that, you know, being a UGC and having some network effects, like that's really been key. and. And just continuing to improve the onboarding, improve the recording experience, improve the sharing experience. Like at some point we, you know, added Instagram and video where we auto-generate a video for you.That was a really good moment because people, and now that's our most used features, like sharing a video of your. because those do better on social network algorithms. So I think, you know, we've kind of had the core loop identified for quite some time and it's just been consistently tweaking and investing and making that better now, since we've had that—and that's kind of driven itself and still drives itself, you know, we're looking at all these different other components as well.So, we're testing out some paid stuff. we're testing out. Different types of like content marketing and like, we have our own podcast now and we really are bullish on like, you know, creating educational content for the mass music maker across different channels and think we can do some really cool stuff there.We're starting to explore different parts of like the growth stack, and even web like SEO and web, we haven't invested in. And we think it's a huge opportunity because we want to expose this content to. To everyone and we can create unique experiences per platform, and we have the bandwidth to do it now.So now it's kind of the fun part. whereas, you know, before it was, yeah, pretty much all organic. 00:22:12 Jacob:Surviving 00:22:13 Seth:Yeah.00:22:13 Jacob:How did you make money with the app, like throughout the history and when did you realize subscriptions were the only and best way to make money on the app store?00:22:19 Seth:Yeah, nice plug. no, I mean, we didn't, we didn't make money forever. Like until last year I think we hit like we're hitting year one. So we'll, you know, we'll figure out these yearly renewal renewals and all that, but, yeah, we didn't make money. Like we basically punted making money. Jury's still out.Like I think if I were to start another app company, I would just implement subscriptions way earlier. But, you know, this is what, when we started and we raised our first round of funding. So we've raised three rounds of funding and,00:22:51 Jacob:When did you raise your. 00:22:53 Seth:First round was 2017 and it was very much like, of course the investors are like, no, no, no, don't make money. know, grow user base, do what Twitter did.00:23:02 Jacob:Oh, you need money. I've got some right here. 00:23:05 Seth:Yeah. Just keep raising venture capital. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially like, just get on the treadmill of ambiguous. And then at some point you can do an advertising layer and that's how it's done. Like that's that's and it's not like we had any much better ideas either.And we're like, all right, like, yeah, let's just keep growing the user base.00:23:22 Jacob:How did you get, how did you get this for years? You just like eating ramen and work in side jobs and 00:23:27 Seth:Yeah, dude. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, so two of them were at college. It was like part-time, you know, like grind in, it took a minute to just to get the test flight out and then the first version then. After progressive I for a year, you know, I just, I mean, I cashed out my 401k and paid some decent money at progressive and sold Bitcoin at like $250 a coin and yeah. Things like that. So 00:23:50 Jacob:Nice. 00:23:52 Seth:Max out some credit cards. I mean, whatever00:23:54 Jacob:You do what you gotta do. Right. it was real, scrappy until that, that, that first round. So, I mean, that's, that's the trade off there. Like you don't either you're at makes money and like you can flow and like kind of live off it or yeah, you got to do that kind of stuff and then eventually bridge to capital.So I was kind of curious, like how, 00:24:10 Seth:Yeah. And, and to be honest, like that, wasn't the only time we had to be scrappy. Like even after the first round, you know, like a lot of companies, we were kind of like, okay, we scaled our user base. Like I think, I dunno 10 X after the seed round, but it still wasn't quite like series a level. So we were kind of stuck in between rounds and it's like, oh shit.Back off payroll. Okay. Like, here we go again. And, you know, it's, it there's Mo there's been moments, multiple moments like that. and without revenue, it was like, you're kind of at the, you 00:24:41 Jacob:Is this it's a safety net, right? Like it's something you can go back on. Right? That, that, that I I've, I've been the receiver of that advice. Not, not in this round, that building revenue cap, but in the past of the like, just go, go, go. And it's, it's not bad advice. Cause it does like that's how Instagram did it.Right. There's examples of companies. But it's that classic. Like you, you know, people with a portfolio of tens or hundreds of companies giving advice to somebody with a portfolio of one and like the risk there, the, the, the, the, the, the risk equation is fundamentally different there, right. between people.And it's just one of those tensions with venture capital that exists. And like, you just got to negotiate. So, yeah. It's, it's, yeah. You know, it's a story we've heard all too much. I think it's why. No, I, I be, obviously I've got a horse in the race, but like, it's why I think subscriptions are great. Right.Cause it just like, you can still use venture capital. And in fact, like, I think it's going to be very accelerative. Right. But, but like you have options, right. And you're like less fragile now. 00:25:45 Seth:I mean, and I'm happy to say, like after that grind now we're absolutely in the best place we've ever been. We have, you know, recurring revenue, we have more cash at the bank than we've ever had, like multiple years of runway. And we should hit cashflow positive, like pretty soon. So it's like totally different ballgame.And I think to answer your other question, we turned out subscriptions. Yeah. About a year ago. And it really changed the like perspective of product building too. And I think that's a fundamental difference, like when we were raising our seed round and, you know, we had, I mean, we do, we have a social network on top of our tool and people were like, Hey, why don't you just try and get to like a billion users?Like that really changes how you build product and what type of features you prioritize? Like, yeah, you're going to be more like, okay, let me put it in another sharing. Like, let me really nudge you to share or like, 00:26:35 Jacob:Eyeballs. Right? you don't care. You don't care. What's behind them, right. You're just like 00:26:38 Seth:Like you basically focus on the top of the funnel instead of the middle, bottom of the funnel and like with subscriptions. Yeah. I mean, subscriptions bottom, bottom of the funnel and that's cool because it kind of focused, it, it focuses you more and that's, that was just a really, it was all big unlock, like last year and know, frankly, we had to figure out how to make money. We were kind of like in between again and, yeah, it just came to us.David came to us and convinced us to do revenue00:27:07 Jacob:Yeah, I forgot. I forgot that that was the, that was the case. I mean, that was part of the thesis of, of what we built to. I ideally lower the barrier and, and stuff like that. So, but how has, like, has has that, because I think there's one that you kind of mentioned just like top of funnel versus bottom of funnel, you think of an app that's driven by virality.There's like disadvantages to reducing, right. To like, so you must be balancing that really delicately, right? Because you still, you don't want to, you don't want to take the gas out of that, that viral loop 00:27:40 Seth:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially a year ago when we were like, oh man, we've had a free app. We have like, you know, 400,000 monthly active users or whatever it was at the time. And we're about to introduce this like paid product, you know, it was kind of nerve wracking that tastefully. You know, we took the approach where we didn't paywall any of the current functionality, like you could come in, you could do everything you did before.In fact, we upgraded the free functionality as well, and then we built new stuff. So like new vocal effects, new ways to like automatically make your song sound better using algorithms, and a few other cool things that people wanted and we paywalled like additional functionality. So I think that was really crucial to do it that.Way and we spent, you know, a few extra months building that, but, that was key. And then people converted and they're still converting because it's just like you get the core experience you come in and then, you know, we gradually level them up and we've launched one subscription product We have Rapchat gold, which again, unlocks Supreme creator tools.But now we're working on a second one that we're going to layer on top that helps these artists make money and gets their songs on Spotify and apple music. And that's going to kind of complete the artist journey. So, building subscription products can be like really fun and fulfilling for both parties.You know, it's like, we're finding ways to help you in your career. And also like, we don't have to start either, you know, it's like we can00:29:04 Jacob:Yeah,00:29:05 Seth:Grow together. And that probably sounds too happy, but like really it, it is like, it's, been 00:29:10 Jacob:You know, it's almost like an efficient market, right. Where people are paying for value and 00:29:15 Seth:That. 00:29:15 Jacob:Value is getting created, right? Like it's almost like a good way of00:29:19 Seth:Yep.00:29:20 Jacob:Like00:29:20 Seth:I like that.00:29:21 David:So tell me a little bit more about, about the fundraising process, as an app and kind of being at a, you know, you said there was that kind of in-between time where it's like, you, you, you had all these signs of product market fit. You were going after the big opportunity. And then when you switched to subscriptions, it wasn't too long after that, that you, went and raised money, right?Did did the subscription product really take off or was it just early and signs of it? It really taking off that, seed investment. 00:29:54 Seth:When we closed that round, you're talking about that's, you know, whatever public and, that, that was around Nico and adjacent came in, you know, we were a couple months into subscription, so it's not like we had a ton of data, and we weren't even like fully rolled out. Now we had proof that.People Liked it and good conversion rates and stuff like that. But I think that was iteration one of the paywall and iteration, one of the flow and really early. but I do think it changed the pers, like how, investors perceived our company and we, we proactively changed it too we're like, no we're building subscription products for our best users.You know, we, we were able to kind of take control of the pitch more-so than before where it's like, you're not making money. How are you going to make money? Are you going to be a social network with ads? Are you going to be a tools company? It's like, No like, this is, this is what we are like, you know?And, that really put us in control. And, yeah, once we got Nico and a few other, like we, it was also just a good time in the market. Like, I feel like in the past couple of years—you guys have seen, there's been a lot of activity on the investor side getting into subscription. apps On the market side with IPOs on the founder side with building really great apps that scaled.I mean, Adjecent's whole portfolio as an example. so I think people were also like, that was the first time where the market worked in our favor. Right. Because before were a music tech social app, it's like, no one wants to fucking touch that. 00:31:19 Jacob:You're like a, you're like Instagram, but smaller.00:31:22 Seth:Yeah. Right. Like, and so. It also like it, it was kind of a perfect storm, I guess.And, yeah, we were very fortunate to get in the right investors that understood the market and also understood like the vision, like the vision was a lot clearer and like, I know Nico really latched onto it and his kind of thesis was perfect for like what we're doing for music. so yeah, it just, it, it was a good fit obviously Sony was in it and like, you know, that, that was kind of a big key moment to get validation from like the music industry where it's like, oh, they're a lot more open and flexible to some of these new-coming technologies and apps and companies.And in fact, like see value in working together, that kind of knocks down that like historical music/tech graveyard of the industry, killing every music tech startup.00:32:13 Jacob:They learned their lesson once probably.00:32:15 Seth:Yeah. Pretty much. 00:32:16 David:Yeah, I'm I'm really curious about, about Sony specifically. And then, you know, you've already been talking about Nico, but you, after, after raising that round and going through that process, what, what's your perspective and maybe even any advice to people thinking about this, about that kind of strategic alignment and the kind of value add, you know, finding that, that company/investor/founder fit. any lessons you've learned from that? 00:32:45 Seth:Yeah, it's hard one 00:32:48 Jacob:Was going to say, I was going to ask like, why? because it sounds like you're leverage different changed probably right from 00:32:54 Seth:Yeah. 00:32:54 Jacob:Because I, I can't imagine, did you raise this first rounds in Ohio?00:32:57 Seth:Yeah, it's some in Ohio, some in the Midwest. You know, smaller funds on the coast, but mostly, 00:33:04 Jacob:To have changed drastically since even 00:33:06 Seth:Yeah. 00:33:06 Jacob:Those first couple of rounds, right? Like it's going00:33:08 Seth:Yeah, for sure. For sure. No, we have a lot more left. I mean, we're, we can be a lot more choosy. We've got to pick like really great investors as of late. it's a whole different, yeah, it's been, it's been crazy.Crazy awesome. But yeah, I mean working, I don't know that you'll get a lot of different advice in working with strategics or big industry partners and depending on who you talk to, some will say don't touch them at all. Some we'll say, if you can work with them, work with them. you know, all I can say is, from my experience, like, it's, it's not easy.Like you're working with a massive, usually a public company and they have a lot more process than, than you do. So like literally getting a deal done is just going to take longer, be more strenuous, probably have a couple of strings. We were fortunate enough for it to be a really good, like clean same terms type of deal, but.It's, it can be really difficult. and that's kind of up to the founder and the company to figure out like, is it worth it? you know, for us major record labels are. Still kind of the end state for a lot of potential artists in their journey. Like they still provide a lot of value if you get to that point.So like, of course we want to, for the long tail, for our, millions of creators, give them that opportunity. if we can help bridge the gap to get signed at some point, that's really, that's really interesting to us. but yeah, it's hard and again, it's very contextual. It depends on every deal.It depends on every company and in general, It's just, it's gonna take a, it's gonna take some time, 00:34:36 Jacob:Yeah. dealing with like a big company, like, like Sony, like venture deals, probably the only thing you're probably tooled for this stage. Cause like that's a bit cleaner, right? Like a venture deal. It's like they invest money. Yeah. If you can get it on the same terms as like another venture investor, like it keeps it clean versus like if you're working on partnerships or something like that, it gets more complicated and I think different.And I'm sure, I'm sure that's probably something you're thinking about going forward. It's like, how do you actually like begin to really engage on those partnerships? I think that's even harder. So in this specific case, or like maybe a more general case, I can venture a small, like venture investment. It can be like a nice way to kind of just like, get your foot in the door with, with a company or like a strategic, just kinda meet people.Just kind of give them some visibility. And then as you grew up, but I would be, I would ha I would caution against like, trying to engage on some big, hairy, strategic, like, partnership deal. I would like push that out until you get a bit bigger. And like you said, like can match the, like the bandwidth differences a little bit better.00:35:33 Seth:Yeah. I have like our own general council full00:35:36 Jacob:And a partnerships 00:35:37 Seth:Tons of it. yeah, 00:35:41 Jacob:That might probably not the best use of your time at this stage. Right. So.00:35:45 Seth:No, I totally agree. I mean, that's, that's, that's pretty spot on 00:35:48 David:And how did you even get an intro? I mean, if you don't mind sharing, like, it seems like it is such a perfect fit, but even those perfect fits, like sometimes it's hard to just even get your foot in the door. 00:36:00 Jacob:Email CEO, 00:36:01 Seth:Yeah, right. honestly, like that's, shit, I don't even know. I mean, I think someone might have intro to us, or I, I reached out to somebody, I mean, we've had a lot of different contacts. I mean over the years and you guys know this, but like now, okay. We've been startups for five, six years and have pretty good network and investors, partners, founders, and it's just kind of a flywheel like now, you know, things come in, things go out.Like it's kind of a engine. I think with that one, it was later on in my like startup journey. So I had a lot of. Connections out there already with the other major labels too. It's like, you know, we we've talked to, we've kept in touch. That was one thing I think we've done really well throughout, like our time, even though we, you know, we've been around for a minute, but we've consistently like kept people updated, whether it's investors, whether it's potential employees, whether it's partners and you know, sometimes like the guy you knew or girl who.Four years ago that you were talking to at a specific part of a bigger company is now leading venture. Right? Like in that, that type of stuff happens a lot. And I don't think this is one of those instances. Like I literally think we talked to one division of Sony and then someone like, introduce us to another like, oh, you should talk to the U S music department or whatever.And, you know, all that to say, like, it's just happens. Like you just reach out to people or people reach out to you. There's there's no like magic 00:37:29 Jacob:These, big places have venture teams typically, right. Or they have like some venture part of their Corp dev wing. That's like, has, you know, funds and knows what they're doing usually. but, but yeah, I mean, it's tricky to. Pick partners like, cause yeah, you also, like we're, we're a interesting company in the sense that like we have kind of many implicit partners.Right. and it, it, it, you know, there's no, like there's no like cap table, you know, wedding rings between any of us, which, which maybe simplifies or doesn't, 00:38:01 Seth:I thought you guys own like 10% or at yet.00:38:04 Jacob:Yeah, that was, that was that's how you got our free plan. 00:38:07 Seth:Right, right. 00:38:08 Jacob:Days you didn't read the full, you didn't read the 00:38:10 Seth:Yeah. 00:38:11 Jacob:Terms of service, parody, parody, comedy. 00:38:14 David:Yeah, I did. I did want to ask, Facebook. Kind of jumped into your space not too long ago. 00:38:22 Jacob:Where were you? Cause you, we guarantee you, you remember when you saw this, but w what were you doing when, like you saw like, Facebook, like clingy guys?00:38:31 Seth:I honestly think I might've been sitting right here. Like I think I was just working.00:38:35 Jacob:Yeah. 00:38:36 Seth:It was nothing special.Like. 00:38:37 Jacob:That's Like a S a founder moment. Like, there's these moments where you're like, oh, somebody just like a bullet, just grazed my ear. Right?00:38:43 Seth:No, I wish I could say I was like at the gym on the treadmill and then it came in and I like jumped up the treadmill. 00:38:50 Jacob:It's most likely you're sitting at your desk, 00:38:52 Seth:Yeah, statistically. Yeah. no, it was, it was kind of a weak, like I don't, I don't even know how to describe the emotions. I mean, I was just like, I kind of laughed. It was just like, okay.You know, I definitely wasn't. Like scared or super worried or freaking out, like, you know, it's maybe, I don't know, 2019 me or something or in the early days would, I'm like, oh shit, like now I can't get venture funding or now I can't like keep building, like, they're going to crush it. But I mean, we've been around in some minute ourselves, so yeah, I just, it was kind of funny and ironic.And then it went like many viral on Twitter with a lot of, you know, my network and other people. And then, I had friends sending it to me like, oh dude, what do you gotta do? And, I don't know, man, like just probably download it and see how bad it is and go from there.They're like, yeah. And it was, and honestly, it was just kind of a fun thing.Like, you know, it, it did, like we got press around the round and then some people could write about that. And it was kind of a funny story and somewhat of a badge of honor, like people, you know, they copy a lot of the top apps. And again, it's just kind of like validation that like clearly you're onto something.I mean, they used the same. Color scheme emojis at okay. One of my most proud things. 00:40:10 Jacob:Stuff that makes you angry, right? As a 00:40:12 Seth:Yeah. 00:40:12 Jacob:They cloned you it's that they 00:40:14 Seth:Yeah. 00:40:15 Jacob:Right? That's what makes me mad. 00:40:16 Seth:The thing that really got me was, Like for our like, button, right. it's a flame, it's like an emoji. And like when you hit it, it like turns into the actual emoji flame. And I always thought that was like the sickest thing ever.Like they did the same exact thing. I was just like, all right. Like, I mean, that's what the little things are, what confirmed that they actually kind of like really looked at your, your app. But, no it's been, I don't even know what they've been up to. I don't even know if they shipped updates. It's zero concern to us. it was just kind of fun. It was like funny to share with the team and, investors and, you know, a lot of investors were like, hell yeah, like that's a good sign. Like 00:40:55 Jacob:Yeah, you should hire somebody off the team. 00:40:57 Seth:Yeah, right. Oh, trust me. I would love to 00:41:00 Jacob:Because like you just think about like, yeah, I, I think you've got the right mentality about it. I'm not even telling you this as like, trying to make you feel better. Like really? Cause like, think how much more skin in the game you have it. I don't know who built this.It's probably some product managers like promotion, packet, project or whatever. I'm being condescending to people working in big companies. But you know, but, but, but think about it like this, you know, this is a, this is a one-time thing there's trying out, right? This is. Passion, right. This is your life or you've last whatever years, right?Like good luck. Unless it, unless they just happened to be way more talented and way more funded, which maybe Facebook is, but like they're not, they don't execute perfectly on everything. Right. So, I think you just smile and you just be like, yeah, let's go, right. It's not, it's not like apples competing with you and being like we're pre installing a chat wrap 00:41:42 Seth:Right, right. Yeah. 00:41:44 Jacob:Which you know, could happen, but 00:41:46 Seth:Sure. Yeah. I mean garage band. Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, the thing is also like, look in the early days we were. I'm just sharing this for context. Like we were, you know, one of the first apps that actually let you record your voice over a beat and share it like that was like New.Okay. Now there's plenty of apps where you can come in and record vocals. You know, different types of audio for beats and like music making apps are kind of a commodity. but what we've done that I mentioned, and we kind of fell into this was like, we built that social layer, that community layer, and you can't replicate that, you know, like they can come in and replicate the tool and have a feed, but like, nah, dude, we already have like hundreds of thousands of like passionate creators that have been with us that have been riding with us. And my favorite thing was when complex tweeted. And like complex being like a very like cultural industry outlet. And they tweeted out and their responses to that were just like the most hilarious thing. I don't even think I could say like half of it, but it was like, basically like Zuck this like reptile coming into like, you know, vulture culture vulture and like, oh shit, that would be my worst nightmare.People said about us and they don't like, it's just are we're authentic. And you know, we really care about the community and that's, you know, That's 00:42:59 David:That's awesome. Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. We're coming up to the top of the hour, but I did want to give you a few seconds to pitch. I know you're hiring and you got a lot going on right now. Any specific roles at the company that you think our audience might be a great fit for? 00:43:17 Seth:Yeah, for sure. I appreciate that. I mean really just like product builders, and I say that broadly. So, engineers, designers, growth marketers, we're looking for really great people to help us scale. Again, we're still a small team. Ten people fully remote and, really looking to scale the product and the company. Now that we have some stability it's a great time to jump on board. We really think that this era of mass music creation has begun, and we kind of kickstarted it, but we're only getting started, right? We just have a really strong opportunity to provide the everyday stack for the everyday artists.00:44:04 David:Yeah, that's amazing. I took a look at your careers page. It looks like there's some great opportunities there across the whole stack, which is fun. 00:44:13 Seth:Where were you looking at, David?00:44:17 Jacob:You guys are welcome to have this conversation, but just let me leave the room, please.00:44:22 Seth:I'm kidding. I'm kidding.00:44:25 David:I do have a background in audio engineering.00:44:27 Jacob:Yes. True.00:44:31 David:No, I'm not in the market. I have too much fun having conversations like this with people like you.00:44:37 Jacob:Alright, thank you for listening to the Sub Club podcast. 00:44:41 David:That's a great place to go out on there. Thank you so much, Seth, for being on the podcast. It's been great. You've been so generous with your time and just sharing.Seth's been on multiple other podcasts. He's been on app promotion stuff. So, I love it when people in this space are open and share about the successes, the failures, how they're building things.So thanks for your time today and for being so active in the kind of broader app maker community. 00:45:11 Seth:Yeah. I just want to say, thanks. Thanks to you guys. The podcast is awesome. I listen to it, every episode. Not to plug your product, but your product, we love it. It's been instrumental in building a real business over here.00:45:30 Jacob:That's awesome. 00:45:31 Seth:I just appreciate you guys. Yeah. 00:45:36 Jacob:Thanks. It was great to meet you.00:45:38 Seth:Likewise, man. Let's let's hang out. You guys take care.

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Matthieu Rouif is the co-founder and CEO of PhotoRoom. PhotoRoom enables anyone to create studio-quality photos on their iPhone. Before founding PhotoRoom, Matthieu was the Senior Project Manager at GoPro. Matthieu is also the co-founder and CTO of HeyCrowd, and co-founder and CEO of As-App.Matthieu earned his graduate degree in materials science and engineering from Stanford University, and his bachelor's degrees in economics, and physics from École Polytechnique. While at École Polytechnique, Matthieu was a member of the skydiving team and debate team. Matthieu also served as a Parachutist Commando Officer in the French Air Force.Matthieu started developing apps in 2009 as a student at Stanford, and subsequently started two iPhone app companies. He was part of the Replay app team when they won App of the Year in 2014. Matthieu started PhotoRoom after leaving GoPro in 2018.In this episode, you'll learn: Matthieu's retention strategies for keeping app users subscribed Innovative and clever ways to get users to demo your app Balancing your app's pricing and features How churn can be an asset Links & Resources YC HeyCrowd GoPro Photoshop Zenlea Shopify Poshmark Depop Corel Matthieu Rouif's Links Matthieu on Twitter Matthieu on LinkendIn PhotoRoom is hiring! 10 Tools to Ship an iOS App in 2 Weeks PhotoRoom's Website PhotoRoom API PhotoRoom on Twitter Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I'm your host, David Barnard. And with me as always, Jacob Eiting, RevenueCat CEO. Our guest today is Matt Rouif, co-founder and CEO at PhotoRoom, the app for removing backgrounds and creating studio quality photos right from your phone.On the podcast, we talk with Matt about how his time at GoPro led to founding PhotoRoom, how churn can actually be an asset, and how being locked in Apple's basement led to one of PhotoRoom's biggest marketing wins.Hey, Matt. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. How are you doing?00:00:48 Matthieu:Great. Hey David, Hey Jacob.00:00:51 Jacob:Hi, it's nice to finally meet internet/virtual face-to-face. We've known each other for a little while. I've become fortunate to know you kind of through RevenueCat, but not actually know-know you. So, it's nice to finally put a face to the name.I was looking back through my email and I think the first I ever heard of you was from our mutual friend, Cisco, if I say that correctly?00:01:23 Matthieu:Yeah, Francisco.00:01:24 Jacob:Francisco, who shared with me a blog post that I had seen that you wrote where you talked about RevenueCat as part of your stack. Since then, I think we talked as you were thinking about going into YC, and then after YC, I put in a little bit of money, so this is a good opportunity to check in on my investment.I'm super excited to dive in, because there's a lot of questions. I kind of have followed you guys and kind of seeing some of the stuff you've been doing, but I don't know, like the behind the scenes decision making processes and like, and all that stuff. So yeah, I'm excited to hear the story firsthand.00:02:04 David:Yeah, but before we get into PhotoRoom, you've got quite a history in app development. So, I want to go back to the beginning and talk war stories. A lot of people were in the industry way back when. Jacob and I both started really early as well. So, you got your start during the Stanford class and you were actually a teaching assistant at Stanford at the time, right? I'm kind of stealing your story, but yeah. Tell me, tell me how you got into it.00:02:34 Matthieu:Yeah. Actually I wasn't a teaching assistant in physics. I was doing a master's in physics at Stanford, right at the moment of the first iPhone class. And, I actually went to Stanford because I was fascinated by the entrepreneurship. And I had this business idea of printing photos and sending them.And that seemed a lot easier not to buy hardware, but just use the iPhone which just started at that point. So, I was at Stanford, there was the iPhone class. I wanted to do a photo app. So, see, 12 years later....00:03:05 Jacob:A 12 year overnight success.00:03:07 Matthieu:That's what they say. Exactly. And, yeah, I got, I actually, I got started, programming.I was doing physics before, and I didn't know anything about programming. So I took a class with a friend that went through the basics, and I just wanted to push products on apps. And I found that the iPhone was the best at that point. And actually the photo app became something else.The first company I started back in grad school and they became like a ski resorts app. I shipped, we had all of the major ski resorts. And, It was a great, I did that for two years and a major ski resorts and, yeah.I started an apps company after that, one called HeyCrowd around a social network. So like we had surveys that you could answer to with polls, like, a bit like Instagram stories now, and that didn't work so well compared to the ski resort, but, yeah, I got into iPhone apps right since the beginning.00:04:18 Jacob:I remember the Stanford course. It was on iTunes U that was mass disseminated or was it the later one?00:04:25 Matthieu:No, it was the one that it wasn't Stanford U. There was a, the guy from Fitboard during the class. I don't know if it was doing that.00:04:42 Jacob:Yeah. I remember. I remember it being like the moment when we were like, oh, this is going to go mainstream. Right? Like, because up to that point, you had to learn iOS by doing basically Mac OS. That was like the one point there was the big nerd book you learned Mac OS, and then the SDKs came and you like tried to learn quickly, like what worked and what didn't.But, if you were like me who came from no Mac programming, there was really no iPhone entry into it. I remember when the Stanford course came out. It was like one year too late for me. Because like at that point I had already done a lot of stuff, but it was still really great.I still watched the whole thing. I remember watching it. But it's interesting. We have the same path. I don't know if we ever talked about this, but I was studying physics in undergrad as well. Yeah, I didn't go to Stanford, but I went to a small state school instead, just cause, you know. But yeah, kind of similar story where like I was in, I wasn't in grad school, but I was physics, undergrad.Didn't really know what I wanted to do. I really loved physics and the math and all that stuff, but like, there's a stronger economic pull, let's put it that way, to work on apps. That was the same story for me. Like took a little bit of what I had learned, writing code for experiments and things like this, and then kind of started making apps.And then, yeah, the rest is history.00:06:06 Matthieu:Yeah. I think one of the introduction to physics is like how fast data applies to the real world from science to real world. And you don't find that in a, like a physics job where you kind of find that back in, like a software development where you like, can we solve a math problem, a computer science problem, and you can directly apply it to real00:06:25 Jacob:Yeah. Or like, even with business modeling and stuff too, you know, you think about how a business moves and like what number moves this number. And there's no physics there. You're not approximating a physical system, but some of the same principles apply. Right. You're like trying to find some laws that are underlying it and work from there.So yeah, I found it hasn't been terribly unrelevant, but, but yeah, that's interesting. What else, what else do we have in common? Let's keep going.00:06:48 Matthieu:Yeah, sure.00:06:49 David:Well, actually, I, I want to jump in. I want to get to PhotoRoom, so we're actually going to skip over. You've done a lot now. So after, after that you went to replay and replay was like onstage at a keynote. And you're the co founders that you were working with, you know, as, as you joked, before we started recording, spent a month in the basement and apple, as everyone does before a keynote.But then you ended up at GoPro working on imaging. so just tell me about that. Leaving GoPro. I mean, Great company done a lot of innovative stuff. but tell me about leaving to start a PhotoRoom and what the inspiration, I guess we've heard part of it, you know, 12 years of working on imaging and wanting to build a photo app.But yeah. Tell me about the founding of, of.00:07:36 Matthieu:Yeah, I, I, so GoPro is an amazing company, but it's more marketing and hardware. And, I really wanted to, I grew a bit frustrated about like how we could, do better software. Yeah, a few frustration from that I, as a product, I was product manager by them. So I was like frustrated with the design tool, like a Photoshop and, and, you kind of have to move to, and by that time you had to move to California to move the stuff.And I was based in there in Paris and I decided to stay there with the family and, and kind of, we had an amazing missionary team at GoPro in Paris, but it's really difficult to. To change the paradigm of a kind of a software, like a, if it works from a kind of more deterministic way. So I kind of realize that it's really tough to ship a new software with new paradigm, and we've mentioned our new insights.So I thought there was a big opportunity with the new, new hardware coming on, the iPhone formation, learning the new, the new, yeah, this new kind of way of thinking about software. And, I left the GoPro to start a company and we've just ideas in mind. And I also, at the time realized that there was a. A lot of apps, you know, like after 10 years on the app store, you kind of know the tricks of the app store. And I knew there were a lot of apps in the top of the photo apps that were around razor and background eraser. I realized like, okay, if they're just kind of a, you know, I say scam, but it's certainly scam, but all these apps that are built quickly, there must be some demand around it.And so that's, I started with the background remover idea. Like I saw that there was a mission learning team at GoPro that there was some background removal, paper and all that. Okay. There must be some demand. Let's ship something quickly and see how it goes. And that's kind of the nice thing of like 10 years of development, you know, the right tool to go fast and just shipped a prototype in two weeks.We've actually referring at, by then I have a blog post on like the 10 tools I use there and, And, yeah, it was, it went super fast, super fast to the store and we have some machine learning and, on-device machine learning by then. So it's as a, and it kind of caught up, like you tried a dozen ideas on some kind of stay on the wall on some, like, and just stay on the wall.00:09:43 Jacob:So at the time it was called BGE app background app. Right. was the focus initially, did you have like a big scope for it or was that your entry? You were like, Hey, I know that they there's these photo apps that kind of suck that are doing this background thing. I think we can do it better. And like, let's see where it goes from there.Or did you have like a bigger plans or longer term aspirations? 00:10:04 Matthieu:I think there was, an understanding that people kind of needed that and the tech tech was 10 X better as they say. So it was really interesting, but I didn't, I mean, we didn't have the full plan for that. It's really a few months in that we are understood with Elliot the kind of the market fit.And we understood also like this idea of, and we call it, we translate pixels into concept that makes it much easier to, to, to edit. So w for the room is the best for digital for entrepreneurs. And the idea is that instead of using mask and layers and pixels, you just like, the machine learning, understanding what are the.The big cells and they just tell you, okay. A cat. So we call it cat to catch up on the cat. And you should have actions that are relevant to a Catholic changing the fur color. if it's, if it's a piece of clothing, it should be the texture of the clothing. If it's a, if it's a kind of graphic change of color, you know, kind of, it makes it much more accessible than what exists in like 10 year, 20 years, software that exists by for the editing.00:11:03 Jacob:So, so yeah, I mean, I think that sounds like a very much a pitch and a story that somebody would be taught at Y Combinator. So I'm curious, like what I'm curious, like, how did that evolve? Like how so you, you, you, you guys launched the app in the, I remember I was talking in like the spring of 2019.00:11:20 Matthieu:Yeah. Like may 2019. Exactly. 00:11:22 Jacob:And then, you started YC in the fall or the winter?Yeah.00:11:25 Matthieu:No, we actually, so we started YC in the following summer. We were supposed to do the winter batch after that. So seven months. And, we, we couldn't because our visa issues, at some, with the family, I couldn't move to, to, to YC. Yeah. 00:11:42 Jacob:Can tell you there's one way to solve that problem.A global pandemic.00:11:49 Matthieu:Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. So we did it involve, I think we shipped super fast. We failure my co-founder who is like a, like a machine learning genius. and we follow early on the YC startup school, which is kind of the, first step to. And, and so what does it help you? It kind of, you measure the, yeah, the progress.So, how much customer you're talking to, Ahmed, how much money you made and how happy you are doing what you do. And so that's kind of how we iterated 00:12:24 Jacob:You were 00:12:25 Matthieu:Months. 00:12:26 Jacob:During, startup school or 00:12:28 Matthieu:Yeah, the school kind of asks you every, every week, discussion and you make sure you make progress on that. I think these are the right question to make progress on your business.And here's, what's kind of, kind of natural, like two months later. So we started in may, may, June on that, application for YC where I probably in September, like, so, so we did like all summer, we did the startup school scheme and then framework and made some progress on that. And we got the YC application in September and the interviews actually in Paris, In, I think November.00:12:57 Jacob:And then, ha had you, I guess like, your, your aspirations or your reasons for applying, I guess, are in some ways, self evident to somebody. You know, obviously you don't need to convince me, but for the listeners, I, what was your, yeah. What were your motivations? Like? Why did you, well, I guess for one there's, you know, I don't know.I always hear there's a couple of reasons, right? Like sometimes it's prestige, like people want to the prestige of YC, sometimes it's, it's the help, which I honestly think is the, the, the best reason. Cause I, you know, it's, it was honestly really good for us, but then there's also like, you know, it's, it's a great way to springboard venture back.Thing, right as well. So like, did you have like strong reasons? Was it all of the above or what was the motivation for, for getting on the venture? 00:13:44 Matthieu:Yeah, that's a good question. so I think number one reason was, ambition. I think like a lot of your brain startups, you Batara, can be not ambitious enough. And I think if you're ambitious, like YC is really a way of, the alpha taking the ambitious path. Okay. Then how to make it like a business and a product that has a strong impact, like on a very large number of people.So that was, that would be my number one. I think then it's kind of the learning. we are at the beginning of the company, we sit for failure, then what's what kind of is the most important, you know, for their culture. And we talked about it also. And, one thing we really value is learning fast and I think YC kind of helps you, you probably a lot of like, you learn so much faster because you're at the right contact.So it's, I mean, it's. It's on the partners. Like every time we have a office hour, almost every time, like, wow. Blown away, there is like also Atlas. I get the right investors, I mean on the revenue, on the like mobile subscription and like, yeah, like you like auger from Blinkist, like, someone from, John from Spotify.So that's really helpful and also extra connection like we have in AI, we have the VP of AI and locale Facebook, and I don't think we could reach this network with, with. 00:15:01 Jacob:Yeah, the network thing is depends on, you know, what your background is. Obviously you had been in the peninsula, but still it's hard to be really deeply networked and still it's hard to. Invest in your engineering skills. Right. And like your IC skills and invest in a network at the same time, which was kind of my world.Like I had an okay network, but like, it wasn't super well networked. So YC was like a big like boost to that. Right. You could get interest to people. You could get a little bit, it's still, a who, you know, game Silicon valley is still in a lot of ways or the broader concept. 00:15:33 David:Before we move on. I wanted to talk to us a little bit more about the, about the ambition of PhotoRoom, because, and this is something I think is, would be really relevant to a lot of our listeners who are, are building apps in the space. And, and I, as an indie developer for 12, 13 years, feel like I've, I've, I've worked too much with, with blinders on.Not thinking about the bigger opportunity. So like the first app I launched was trip cubby. It was a model it's log tracking app, to get reimbursements from taxes or get reimbursed from your company, for your mileage. And I just, I treated it like a little tiny indie business, lifestyle, business, and everything else.Meanwhile, 00:16:19 Jacob:IQ00:16:20 David:IQ built a huge 00:16:23 Jacob:Probably launched about the same time. Right. I would think. 00:16:26 David:No, they launched much later actually, which is even again, it's like I had a multi-year lead as kind of the, how to do that 00:16:33 Jacob:Assuming the market was there. Like my, like you probably came when the market was finally there, 00:16:37 David:Starting to grow, but yeah. But what's so cool. Is that, I think there's so many opportunities in the app store that people overlook that seem really niche. Like you just started out replacing backgrounds in photos, 00:16:50 Jacob:And now you're going to be the next generation Photoshop. Is that a good one? Is that a good pitch? I don't know what the 00:16:54 Matthieu:Yeah. 00:16:57 David:What, what's the ambition that, where that took you from, okay.We can replace background images too. This is, could be a huge business because we're, un-bundling one of the like key parts of Photoshop, which is a massive business. So what, what, what is the, what was the ambition and what is the ambition that you feel that this, this can be such a big thing. 00:17:21 Jacob:How did you, how did you convince yourself of that? The ability to do that?00:17:25 Matthieu:Yeah. 00:17:25 David:Yeah.I mean, it's, it's amazing.00:17:27 Matthieu:I think it's, well first like working on photo, video editor, like I realized that, I mean, video is big. Like we got, I think we free-play then named quick by GoPro. We got to $100 million. It's kind of tell you like, and most people, they are still using like photo collage. So everyone's working on photo and video is too complex for most people.So like, if you get 100 million for a video, then it's probably like any good, like yeah. Project improvement like 10 X product improvement on photo must get like 1 billion users. And I think it's like, that's one of the YC model, but it was really starting from a pain point of myself, like creating the assets for actually for the app store.Like you have to create a PSD. And I was like, you spent so much time on non creative task. And I was like, I want to make that much simpler. And I think the big heart moment was kind of talking to the user. So, and also like talking, yeah. Talking to people like we kind of build in the open and people told us, it's like, yeah, Yeah, it's a, it's like a actually it's like programming, like a U instead of you're you're doing like, object oriented, editing, like you understand what kind of objects you have and you make actions that are relevant to that.And that's, that's kind of done myself, like really burning myself away. Like it's much simpler. Like you have an object and you, you offer it to the user. What's the logic for the subject lines, Photoshop. It's such a pain to learn. Like I think everyone would remember is kind of the blown away part of Photoshop, but also the pain it is to understate.00:18:51 Jacob:And it hasn't gotten easier in 20 years. Like the only way now you can paint on a sphere or something like, there's nothing like new, I still open it and it's comforting. Cause I learned in CS two or whatever, and it's all still the same, but like, I don't think it's necessarily, like, I think, I think there's even a broader near you.I'm going to make your, your $10 billion company, a trillion dollar company. But I think there's an even broader narrative there around just like the future of software and how machine learning. Further like narrows the gap between like in software, like programming, not in the traditional sense, but like telling a computer what to do and the computer telling, like asking us or like bringing us like the things it can do.And you see this in like varying degrees of it working well. Right. like Gmail, like suggesting like absolutely insane sounding replies that I would never say, like, that's kind of that, but, but I think that's all maybe a little bit too far, but I think what you guys are doing, it's really great. You know, like segmenting photos, like giving people those tools, like taking, especially for a tool like email it's like writing, like, I don't know.An AI assistant to like, say, thanks like I can, I got that. Thank you. But for, for, yeah, like, like cutting backgrounds out and like setting up. Yeah. Just building like, things that to a human, because we're so visual in the way we think seem really basic, right? Like I want the cat in front of a blue background, right?Like that. Just tell the computer and it can do that right now. The existing tooling is like very manual and very skills driven. And you guys are bridging that gap. So like yeah. Who knows something? I don't know. Maybe photos, aren't the end of it for you guys, maybe next you just start tackling the next software domain.Right? I, you know, I don't know that we'll get to 10000000001st and then we'll worry about the trillion dollar.00:20:28 David:And that's the really magical thing about your app and your onboarding that I wanted to ask you about. So exactly what Jake was saying. When I think of removing a background and I've worked in Photoshop literally since the nineties, late nineties, I'm old. but it's, I've tried that like a hundred different times.And even in the most modern Photoshop, I don't even know how to do it. I expect it to be. I downloaded PhotoRoom and in like three taps, your onboarding is magical because you don't get in the way of the person having a desire to get something done. And then seeing it happen. So in like three tops from opening the app, I see a background removed and it was just like00:21:16 Jacob:Okay. 00:21:16 David:Instant, like mindblowing experience. 00:21:19 Jacob:Yeah.00:21:20 David:This thing that like, I know it's so hard and I think of needing professional tools and needing to be a professional to even figure it out. It just happens magically after three or four taps in your app was that I assume that was very intentional. Did you have different onboardings before and kind of iterate to that point?Or what led you to just such a focused get the person to that?00:21:45 Matthieu:Yeah, that's a good grade. She was our interview. I think, we like, if we, especially in the beginning every week, we'd go to McDonald's and pay a meal to student or anyone. And they like the tagline for McDonald's and Frances com. Everyone can come in and come as you are. So we really met like tourists students professionals, and like doing user interview.We got so frustrated. I think that people didn't get to the step of removing background that kind of like00:22:12 Jacob:Oh, so you would give them an unlogged out like a brand new device and like, watch them go through onboard.00:22:17 Matthieu:We would like pay the meal initially for downloading the app. We'd like first ask you three, four questions about their photo usage on their, on their phone. kind of ask them to download the app and yeah. Blinded as yeah. And, and we were like came sneaking. We just were, we were just iOS at the beginning.So try to find people with iPhones and not Android, and that was stuff, but yeah, I mean, people usually stopped before and they don't understand something and like to build trust with them, we figured out like the best is to short tech. So I can we get to the point where. We actually have all these people, we try the app that actually see the bag, the magic effect of Futterman like, so like taking a white sheet of paper, we valued microphone and like thinking, how can we do that?And it got to like adding that as early as possible in the onboarding. I think that's, that's, that's fine.00:23:06 Jacob:I think, I remember now reading about the McDonald's testing and your, your, YC application and being like. That's the moment I knew these guys were going to make it, I guess like it's was brilliant, right? Like I, I don't know how much user testing, like real good user testing is. If you do it in some sort of like professional context, it's probably really weird and like expensive and like hard.And this is dead simple, super scrappy. Right? People don't do it because I don't know nerds. Don't like talking to people like we don't like, you know, it's, it's, it's tough to put your, your app in front of somebody and see them. Not, it's one thing to read like bad retention numbers on amplitude is another thing to like, see somebody actually churn and like, but honestly that's the best way to learn.Like this is the best way to like, get really actionable feedback. So, I'm sure that was, that was super beneficial.00:23:53 Matthieu:Yeah, it's a, it's a trick from Zenly. So the social network and maps, like that really is, one of the best, app in embarrass and they, and we apply that and yeah, it requires some. It's not easy, I must say. But, you really, you learn so much and the pain today is more like we have more qualified users.So it's really easy in the beginning when you're in your photo apps and people just as the app and everyone has photos. So it's easy to explain. Then you want to like talk to your kind of retain user. It's difficult to get them at the McDonald, but now we're friends with all the vintage shops around the block.So in Paris, so we get.00:24:28 Jacob:So that, yeah, that was I kind of my question I wanted to ask. I'll just slide it in now, but like I've noticed, I don't know. I don't know if you had this intention initially, but it seems like you've found a new. Even amongst these apps in something I would say commerce or even e-commerce it seems like a lot of people use these, use your app to take photos of objects, to use as like advertising or gone Shopify.Is that, is that true and statement or am I just like misreading investor updates?00:24:56 Matthieu:No, it's totally true. Actually, it's not. The interesting thing is it came from a personal lead, like using, as you say, Photoshop and wanted it much easier for me, but I wasn't clear who was using the CRA's background apps. I'm talking to like user at McDonald's. We realized like there was all these reselling apps, especially in the Europe and the U S where people.Yeah, they're just like selling Poshmark on vintage in Europe and they, there is no app that's focusing on their photo need. Like everyone's doing like selfies or I dunno, whatever lens on video you can make or, but, no one's in it helping them. And it actually came from the user interview like, oh, that some user told us like, oh, my girlfriend would love that she's selling on Depop.And, and we kind of like it after multiple user asking us in support. asking us, and in talking at the user interview of my goal, we realized that, oh, that's a niche that we should kind of focus on. So that's Allie Kim, 00:25:51 Jacob:Was that pre YC, like pretty early in the process.00:25:55 Matthieu:And it came in a few, just not in one day, but it, I think early, after being taken at twice a 00:26:02 Jacob:Okay. 00:26:03 Matthieu:Like early 20, 20,00:26:04 Jacob:So then my next question, I guess, is like, how do you decide then? So you have a car for strong product. You, you, you might have like varying. This is, I think this is very common for a lot of apps and companies is like, you have probably different levels of product market fit depending on the market.Right? So like maybe broadly across all users of iPhone, your product market fit may not be as strong. But then when you look at this one niche, like maybe it's really strong. And then I think some. End up in a situation where you have to kind of decide, like, do I want to go for this maybe less fit, broader market, or maybe a tighter market with a stronger fit that I'm starting out with.Did you have that internal conversation? And then did you make an active decision? Like we're going to focus on this and then yeah. And then what's the plan after that? Like, or is that the forever plan?00:26:48 Matthieu:I think we, the easy part is as a product guy, I'm really convinced that our usage is really deep. Like we're starting from a different Lego brick, like, okay, you don't need it mask or square pixels, you edit like objects. So, I mean, any app that kind of want to copy that Nike that's to stop doing what it does today.So it's kind of the thing that relates to the missionary understanding excelled in the beginning. So we were confident. Digging into this usage and this product paradigm and like product basic block is interesting. And then we decided to focus on the pro usage and, and it's difficult as a follower. You want to serve everyone at the beginning, we were even doing a video plus photo, like in December of 2019, we dropped the video, just for animation.And then we dropped kind off the casual use case to focus on the pro and, and it's, it's been helpful. You're not like giving up on the other users. You, I mean, some of the features, they're still going to use it, the other, the casual, the people doing memes from, from the app, but she just like when you build features, you think about them.And I, around that, I think YC is helpful because. like if you reach local maximum from one vertical, like product market fit, then you investing so much on the take. It gets better than the, all the local maximums or, or adjustment. Like you can reach them after, and it's not a big deal and kind of believe and believing and trusting that helps you on, on like a, okay, we're going to focus on this one for, let's say three months and we say,00:28:14 Jacob:Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really good point in that I think can trip up people early in the process is that you think. That making an active choice to close yourself off to part of the market as a mistake. Cause you're like, well, I want to serve everybody or, well, I want to, you know, I want to have the most broad appeal I can cause it does, it feels wrong, right.To not serve a use case. but often tactically it's a bad choice because yeah, in the early days, anything. Hey find any users that love your product, even if it's a small group, there's, it's a, it's a closer step to like, get your foot onto that than it is to try to get sustainability on like mediocre product market fit across the broad market.Because then also it makes, yeah, it makes your McDonald's discussions easier. Well, maybe you don't have McDonald's discussions anymore. It makes your product discussions easier. Cause you can say like, okay, these are pilot. We're not going to do all this stuff. We're going to focus on this stuff, which gives you more of a loss city.I just really feel there's so much to getting that velocity early. Right. Like getting something that's like moving and growing and getting fast. And I think that's one of the things, I mean, I don't know, I won't, I won't docks you guys on retention numbers and stuff, but you know, when you have a, I'll just say that when you have a pro user base, that's using it for something non casual retention gets easier, right.Like have a reason to come back. And so if you, I mean, there's not that many apps like that. That on it's hard, it's hard, it's hard. It's rare to find mobile apps that have that opportunity. Right. So when it's there, you need to take it00:29:45 Matthieu:Yeah. 00:29:46 David:How do you think about pricing for that value creation? Since, since those that kind of pro segment really probably gets a lot more value than you're even currently charging. because they're actually making money with your product. Like how did you think through your print pricing? And did you iterate to this point from a more kind of consumer pricing to them to a, I mean, to me it feels like you're in the middle still of somewhat consumer-friendly and really honestly, probably cheap for a professional use case.So how did you land on your current price?00:30:24 Matthieu:Yeah, to be honest, it's like most of the photo apps. I mean, when we started and maybe it's different, they are all pricing like 10 bucks a month and that's kind of given by, I guess, Spotify Netflix, like it's kind of the, the glass ceiling of the price of subscription, even for prosumer. And, and we kind of iterated on the under yearly from 40 bucks to 69 bucks, in, in the U.So we didn't like, we kind of landed on that quite early. you don't want to alienate the user, especially if you put the up-selling in the onboarding, like, to be too expensive. I think we have a major opportunity though, to like address the more advanced business and the more than one person in a shop, it's just, it's really difficult to build this a B2B case in in-app like, you don't have that many apps that use that in the up-sell of the phone.So you probably have to show it like. The the first price, to every user and on the pro you probably can to brigade them after, I think it's something we can do later, like focusing on the product for now and make it simple as much as you're like, if you start with two prices, like the support, basically it is going to go crazy.We still do the support of the users. That's something we try to maximize for simplicity here.00:31:37 Jacob:I mean, it's a good point to make, especially too. It depends on, depends on your cashflow constraints as well. Just like how much, how extractive you want to be, how much you want to push it. Right. because you know, when you have good retention, like there's an argument, an argument to be made to not mess that up by because you're raising your price will hurt your attention, right?Like it's kind of at least on paid, right? Like more expensive. It is. People are going to churn more. and if you're compounding your total, like paying subscribers, that might be more important and then extracting an extra, an incremental $2 or $10 or whatever from each user, right. It might be better off just to keep them happy and longterm.And that's what makes it, I don't know, pricing just so complicated. It's about finding that equilibrium to maximize like the longterm area under the curve and not just, not just like the individual LTVs.00:32:27 Matthieu:Yeah, exactly. I think there was one. yeah, we, you want to talk to, like, you don't want to. Expensive at the beginning, you should have too expensive. Like one of the really source of feedback was also our support. And like, if you're too expensive, you get less pro. And the goal, I mean, the reason we launched after two weeks with was like the feedback from process so much more valuable than the feedback from, for users.I mean, you still want people to pay, like, just stop at 500 bucks in long month is going to be like, there's no way people are going to pay for that. So, and I was actually talking on Twitter that like, we actually put forth first a monthly plan because we wanted people to churn and be able to talk to them.So there was really a focus on learning from the 00:33:07 Jacob:Interesting. 00:33:08 Matthieu:Early days.00:33:09 Jacob:Yeah, I've always. Yeah. The, the short, I think, long, the annual subscriptions obviously have a bunch of benefits to, to, to app developers, but you do end up flying blind for a very long time. Right. Until you really know what those numbers look like. So if you're on monthly, purely, it does kind of simplify things early on.Which is another case to be made for just not over thinking your pricing, like initially, right? Like you guys launched just with the monthly and it was fine that you added, I don't know when you added an annual product, but you brought it in when the time. 00:33:40 Matthieu:I think the logical, so learning from GoPro and replay days is the pricing is quite elastic. So you double your price, you divide by two, the number of pros like minus plus 10%. And so, so it doesn't, I mean, it's, I mean, when you get bigger, it's way of doing experiments on pricing, but in the early days it's worth, it's not worth like taking too much time on that.00:34:01 Jacob:Yeah. I mean, it's good to know if you have an elastic curve, it means you're pretty close to, to the optimum already, right?00:34:06 David:Did you start from day one at that $10 a month price point?00:34:10 Matthieu:I think we were at eight or nine. it's pretty much like every pro for the pro apps. Like not selfies was at that on the photo and it's, and I think. The co, I mean, it goes from Spotify on Netflix. Like, everyone's like a, it's like if comparing industry report, they tell you a comparing you to Spotify on that fixed anyway.So it's a, I think it's a good, like a way to start on as they increase the price, they increase kind of the time of all the possible ATV of all the apps, which is really good. Thank you.00:34:40 Jacob:If they don't take care of it, inflation will don't worry. 00:34:43 David:But, but that's just amazing two weeks, to an MVP that you could charge $8 a month for, and people actually paid it.00:34:50 Jacob:Well, 12, 12 years in two weeks, David, if00:34:52 David:Well, right, right, right. No, no, that's a great point. But the point being that there, there are still opportunities that when you have experience and domain knowledge, that it's not the, the programming, it's not the, it's not such a monumental task to build something that's really valuable to people in this space on mobile, that you can build something good quickly with that experience.00:35:17 Matthieu:The first app was really crappy though. Like I think we 00:35:20 David:Yeah. 00:35:21 Matthieu:A few weeks before having our pay first paid users.00:35:23 David:Gotcha. I did want to talk a little bit about your marketing, so, What did you do at launch? Did, did you get a little pressed? Did you, you know, talk to apple, how did you get that initial code?00:35:35 Matthieu:So yeah, we were super, I mean, apple has been super supportive to us. I think. Before GoPro, GoPro acquired replay. so we play was, app of the year, senior as, elevate. So 00:35:46 Jacob:You guys at the year in France, is that what the00:35:48 Matthieu:No, so so I have a card, I brought the screenshot that, 00:35:52 Jacob:The U S 00:35:53 Matthieu:So we didn't, yeah, we didn't, get the U S we didn't get the U S and north America, and it's kind of a private, taser, but it's, we got like most of the Europe and Asia. And, yeah, and then I was seeing like the star that elevate their they're thinking the other U S and we should get that. 00:36:14 Jacob:It was good for you that we hadn't localized maybe 00:36:18 Matthieu:Yeah, 00:36:19 Jacob:That was the thing we were like only English at the time.00:36:22 Matthieu:Well, elevate is such a difficult business to localize. So I think it's a photo video is easy to localize it. Yeah.And, and so we got like, we got the keynote, so, and we kind of, I mean, the app is really good at marketing. using the latest technology of, apple in, like the metal and using the lasers, the GPU, I kind of build a relationship from there, with the apple team and also like learning AR that's kind of the narrative of apple, like to showcase apps.Leveraging the latest technology. They do their marketing through developers and that's awesome for us. Like it's super opportunity. And so what was that? When we started, it was well, we're using a Carmel to do the background removal and we did use like really early on in September of 2019, we use our KPIs to remove the background, to do some live preview of the photo.And so we got into, there is an accelerator inference in the biggest, like sexual life is one of the biggest things. Accenture and apple has a program there and we got in there and they helped us and like marketing and, and business, during the summer. And we had some tech workshop and in September we got Macy's, marketing from the using Eric.He, three, I think, API APIs. So I think all the days was marketing through, using the latest tech software and hardware from.00:37:42 David:And where did it go from there? Yeah. So after, after you've, you've gotten some traction in some of those early customers. did you jump into paid user acquisition 00:37:52 Matthieu:No. 00:37:54 David:Of, of, paid to, organic growth?00:37:58 Matthieu:Yeah. So we got into, we didn't do paid until like, we really got traction and market fit. So early 20, 20, and we started to have some, we got Gary V tweeting about us, like a video, farmer. So that was like a viral video demoing the app. And we kind of, I mean, the thinking was if some videos of demoing for term or viral, it probably works so-so as ad.So we kind of use these viral videos and try ads on that. Started ramping up, I think before YC, Facebook ads. So in April of last year and, it kind of, yeah, it was a good, channel of acquisition for us. And we always had in mind, like, we don't want to spend too much, we wanted to have it under control, but the payback was really good.So we kind of, added mix like, I don't know, it was three 17, maybe at that point in between the, between paid 30% beta and the 70%. And, yeah, organic and so that we ramped that up and I think it wasn't a good time to all this marketing and we kind of fast in that, at that point, because there was a COVID, the beginning of the COVID and all marketing was going down.So it was super cheap to try stuff there. 00:39:09 David:Yeah. 00:39:09 Matthieu:So I tried to be a part of these tick on that an influencer. I like a lot of times. So like all of that, we were at the right time and at the right moment for that day,00:39:17 Jacob:So how much, like are you balancing? I mean, obviously there's always so much you're balancing as a founder. but you know, how much are you thinking about investing back in the app and like broadening your appeal, making it better new markets, like new platforms versus. The scale of approach, like how can we scale marketing and, and continue to grow?Or is it like 50, 50? Like, do you have a top priority right now? Or, or how has the, like, how has your, your mind thinking about like your biggest growth levers?00:39:48 Matthieu:Yeah, we try to try to have a higher, level kind of privacy laws. So let's focus on retention or let's focus on this specific kind of users. So, in the U S for just three months, and we tried to align product and growth, on like a three months of that. And so that's kind of. that's yeah, that's how we think about it with Elliot and, and try to have it on growth and on product and kind of put us to talk more to these kinds of users, so to improve on, on these kind of shoes or just, just niche for instance.And, I don't know if people are selling on this marketplace for a month and then we'll see maybe another nation, another country, but still improve the experience for everyone.00:40:29 Jacob:And are you thinking about marketing in terms of like specific people selling on specifics, like marketplaces, like the you're actually going like channel by channel that, that, that, that closely. And does that inform like features or does that inform creative or how does that feed back into your part?00:40:44 Matthieu:Yeah, we're good. We're getting into that. Like we tried to understand bearer by a persona use case. What's the LTV and what's the retention is, and I think we are at the scale where we start to do that, but before it was like a general, a general creative for everyone and kind of demo the value of the app.And we were super lucky that our creative we're working for them. And I think like now, like the way marketing works, it's, like a. Facebook or Google are doing most of the optimization and you're more into like, what can I add up my creative so that it fit the focus I want to do for it. I don't know if the U S so I'll be a make sure you're in English.I'll make sure if you're like looking at multiple countries, try not to be too localize. I think there is a Netflix called neutralize, or they have a specific wording on making the, the artwork or the creative, not to localized, not to English, for instance. Okay. So you just content that's good. So it's kind of, that dictate kind of what we try to do with growth and marketing.00:41:39 David:That's great. Well, I have a million more questions, but we do need to, to wrap up. We're going to put links into the show notes to find you on Twitter and LinkedIn and, and PhotoRoom is such a great name, easy to Google, easy to find on the App Store. but you're also hiring, what, what positions do you have open?00:42:02 Matthieu:We're hiring a lot. We're hiring on growth and paid acquisition, hiring project designer, iOS developer, Android developer. And the way we think about the team is really to have a, like, we are 10 people, and we have a strong impact to millions of users. So, really leveraged like a small team, high impact.I think it's possible because of apps. So, we're looking for really senior people for that, and mostly in Europe. So we have like a, two, three days a month, in the Paris HQ, but, you can work from anywhere in Europe.00:42:35 Jacob:Yeah. And I'll, I'll second that. I think working on this product would be really interesting. Purely based on my insider knowledge as an investor and your friend, but for real, I mean, a lot of apps don't, you know, get to the point you have. You've got a lot of tailwinds and I think actually, the upsides are go far beyond the App Store.The future is very, very, very big. And you guys are ambitious. So take these jobs. Thank you.00:43:02 David:Yeah. 00:43:03 Matthieu:Yeah. We were thinking be everywhere. We stopped for a while, but we were like mobile first, not mobile only. And we have the web app web tool that we launched last week. We have an API for any developer that wants to remove the background. We have photo and attribution, and have the module folks using it.So it's really, I think we want to be close to the entrepreneurs, and we want to communicate through pro images that sell. And so sometimes it's not an app, it's just a photo and button. And so you can use the API for that. So, yeah. 00:43:33 Jacob:It's pretty great when you have a good product market fit, it just gets really fun. 00:43:37 Matthieu:Yeah. And we have that kind of, now that we have money, we kind of, we have like super smart people on the machinery team. So, we have the best thing on the market to do that. And that's super exciting. Now we're shipping new machinery next, I think next week. And it's going to be awesome. I can't wait to see the result on the analytics.00:43:52 David:That's amazing and 10 people. I thought you were bigger. I guess you want to be, you want to be, 15 or 20 with all the postings you have. 00:44:01 Jacob:That's why I'm really bullish on this market, David.00:44:04 Matthieu:Yeah. 00:44:04 David:Yeah, 00:44:05 Jacob:A small team can do a lot of stuff in this space. It's crazy.00:44:07 Matthieu:Yeah, It's00:44:08 David:It is crazy. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was great chatting, and thanks for sharing your insights, Matt. 00:44:13 Jacob:Yeah. We'll have to catch up again in two years to see how, see how it's going. 00:44:17 Matthieu:Yeah, of course. With pleasure. Thank you guys.

02:21 - Melissa’s Superpower: Being Extremely Online 03:06 - Unionizing Glitch (https://glitch.com/) * Glitch workers sign tech’s first collective bargaining agreement (https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/2/22307671/glitch-workers-sign-historic-collective-bargaining-agreement-cwa) * Misconceptions re: Unions * Engineer Salary Discrepancies * Middle Management, Product Management Unionization * Minority Unions (i.e. Google) * What is a Minority Union? (https://workercenters.com/labors-loophole/what-is-a-minority-union/) * The Rise of Minority Unions: How Social Movements and Tech Giants Could Be Showing Signs of Things To Come (The Rise of Minority Unions: How Social Movements and Tech Giants Could Be Showing Signs of Things To Come) 14:58 - Melissa’s Previous Experience with Working w/ Unions * Communications Workers of America (CWA) (https://cwa-union.org/) * Civic Technology (What Is Civic Technology? (https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/09/19/what-is-civic-technology/)) * Chi Hack Night (https://chihacknight.org/) 17:13 - Positive Skills Union Organizers Should Have 18:32 - Thoughts on Leading with Petitions * We are Frank — a platform for worker voice (https://getfrank.medium.com/we-are-frank-189111ceb54a) * 2018 Google Walkouts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Google_walkouts) 26:58 - Writing Online; Dismantling Publications and the Fracturing of the Media World * The Rise Of Substack—And What’s Behind It (https://www.forbes.com/sites/falonfatemi/2021/01/20/the-rise-of-substack-and-whats-behind-it/) * Melissa McEwen: The best JavaScript date libraries in 2021 (https://www.skypack.dev/blog/2021/02/the-best-javascript-date-libraries/) 29:41 - Evaluating Human Performance * PSA: DevRel isn’t fake !! * How to Hire A-Players: Finding the Top People for Your Team- Even If You Don't Have a Recruiting Department (https://www.amazon.com/How-Hire-Players-Recruiting-Department/dp/0470562242) * People Skills 43:21 - Getting Started with Organizing a Union * Use Signal (https://signal.org/en/), Not Slack * Be Harder to Fire Reflections: Casey: Hearing success stories re: unionizing. Jacob: How people skills can be a function of your individual team. Melissa: Studying more about unions in other countries. Rein: Looking more into co-ops and collectivisations. An injury to one is an injury to all. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_injury_to_one_is_an_injury_to_all) This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JACOB: Hello, and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 229. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I’m here with my co-panelist, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey. I'm here today with Melissa McEwen. Melissa is a web developer, working in content now. She often writes about the JavaScript ecosystem. She helped unionize Glitch, which recently signed their first Collective Bargaining Agreement in late February. Welcome, Melissa. So glad to have you. MELISSA: Hi, everyone. CASEY: We like to start each show by asking you a certain question. Melissa, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? MELISSA: My superpower is being extremely online and I acquired it by being given computers way too young and having nothing to do, but play with computers. CASEY: I like that phrase “extremely online.” What does that look like today for you? MELISSA: It means, I know way too much about what's going on in Twitter and the internet in general and sometimes, I'll make references that you only know if you're extremely online and it's kind of embarrassing. I don't even know what it's like to not be extremely online, but I'm trying to stop being extremely online because it's overwhelming trying not to check Twitter every 5 seconds. CASEY: Oh, yeah. I did that a lot, too. I don't know if I would describe myself as extremely online, but I might have seen some of the same memes as you and I think that would [chuckles] give me a little bit of that. MELISSA: Yeah. I mean, memes, what's the latest drama on Twitter today, that kind of stuff. JACOB: Is there a way to turn that superpower and help people around you or, how do you leverage that? MELISSA: Yeah, the only thing that's good about it, I would say is that you know a lot. I try to write about things and provide my knowledge to other people. I mean, you know a lot, but on a surface level, that's the problem so, you have to always be aware of that. I'm not an expert on unions and for the Glitch union, I was one of the original organizing committee folks, but I was laid off last year in March and there were 18 people, I think laid off. So the union has been going on without me and that's just great. Me and some other externally online people, when we started the union, we leveraged our externally onliness because we were connected to a lot of people who helped us like the CWA, which is the Communications Workers of America. We found them online, for example and they were critical in getting the union actually started because we'd been talking about it, but they were the people that pushed us and they're one of the bigger unions. They've been around for a long time. They have an organized telecommunications workers, primarily and now they're doing some tech stuff. So very interesting. JACOB: Well, as someone who is moderately online at best, I have been reading a little bit about recent union news with Glitch, but I would love to hear your story about how it started and how it brought us to today. MELISSA: Yeah, I mean there's only so much I can say, but the stuff that really was – building a union is about connecting with your coworkers and a lot of people have said, “How are we going to build a union to the remote workplace?” Well, I was remote and half the company was remote. That's one good thing about being extremely online is you’re probably used to talking to people online. I connected to people in my workplace and people on my team. At first, it was mainly people on my own team and then what CWA teaches you to do is to build connections in your workplace. It's almost like you map it out and you talk to other people in your workplace and you try to leverage those connections. I wasn't connected to everybody in the workplace, but I was connected to some other people who were connected to people I wasn't connected to. So it was challenging in that this was not an office where I could go see these people every day. I had to kind of – you can't just sneakily invite someone to a call unionizing. You have to actually build social capital and build relationships and then turn those into those connections you need to build a union. A lot of us had been following union stuff in tech. I was a member of Tech Workers Co, I think others were and we thought since Glitch is a very diverse workplace, we want to make sure that workers have a seat at the table and can actually help each other and to help the company do right by the workers. We had some bumps along the road. It is hard to organize people remotely and a lot of people have misconceptions about unions. They think unions are only for certain workers like people working in a mine, or they have bad impressions of unions. Like, I don't know. I grew up and my parents were like, they told me that unions were bad. We watched On the Waterfront and they were like, “Oh, look, unions, they’re so corrupt.” But a union is just like an organization. It's a big organization and they have a history and they have a context and a union is just like anything. Like a company. It can be bad; it can be good. It's based on the people and once you join a union, you can help guide that union by being part of it. JACOB: I would think an extremely online person would be very good at that. MELISSA: Yeah, it did help to be constantly on Slack and on Twitter. JACOB: And good at really just making those connections. That would not come naturally to make all those personal connections, what you just said. MELISSA: Yeah, but also, it was. I do think people who had those real life – who were at the office did have an advantage in forming those connections because not everybody at Glitch was extremely online, for example. Also, meeting each other in real life, occasionally like, we'd go to the conferences and stuff, that really helped. It's complicated about how much organizing you can do in the workplace and at what times. You don't want to ever do it on times are supposed to be working, for example, so. CASEY: What were some of the things that made this unionization effort successful and possible and what were some of the things that got in the way? I think we've covered some already. MELISSA: Yeah. I think having a pretty social workplace, that was social online, but that doesn't include everybody. There’s some people who were more online than others, for example and the fact that we relied so much on online organizing, it was harder to reach those people. So it was very crucial that we have people in the New York City office who were able to do some on the ground in-person organizing and getting those people on board was like, once we got those people on board, that was a very important thing that we did. Because originally, it was all remote people and then we added in the New York City office people. Yeah, the bumps along the road are just misconceptions about unions, what they mean. People can union bust themselves just by having these misconceptions like, “Oh, union is a third-party. It'll affect my relationship with my manager. I can't be friends with my manager anymore.” It's not true at all. So some of the organizing committee had been in unions before. Like, there was one woman, who was a social worker, who had been a social worker union and I had been in a Civil Workers Union before. So I knew that I was friends with my managers in these unions and I mean, not that being friends with the manager is the priority, but the idea that if you're friends with a manager, you can't do a union. That's just not true. But some people thought that. CASEY: The biggest misconception I can think of is why do you well-compensated professionals need a union and I'm sure you've heard this all the time. MELISSA: Oh yeah, that’s a big one. CASEY: Yeah. Fill us in for that. Like what do you say to that? MELISSA: I think so. Online, someone was like, “Oh, it's cultural appropriation of blue-collar workers.” I do not agree with that. I think all workers benefit from a union and it is just an organization that allows workers to negotiate with their bosses and on a fair playing field. It's not a culture. You don't have to be in the movie, The Irishman, or On the Waterfront, or even know people like that. It's just a way of organizing a workplace and having a seat at the table, so. JACOB: You mentioned earlier that I think, or maybe you implied that this union joins multiple disciplines, too. Is that true? MELISSA: Yeah, like we had engineers and then we also had a media department. That's where things would be hard because a lot of workplaces are quite siloed and I've always been against that. Like, I hate the term non-technical for example, like video production people, those are the most technical people I know they're literally working with like technical equipment every day and they know so much about it. Those people are tactical. And then another big obstacle is who is eligible for a union? Who can join? It's not clear because tech has roles that aren't very traditional, like product manager. Is that a manager, or is that an individual contributor and often, that’s hashed out on the negotiating table. It's based on all these laws and I've read some of the laws, I'm not an expert, but it's good to read a little bit of the labor law just to understand. But even if you know it, it's interpreted differently by different courts and stuff. There's a National Labor Review Board that reviews labor disputes and stuff and that was Trump's appointed board. So we wanted to make sure we got a voluntary recognition because we didn't want anything to do with that board at that time because they were very hostile towards workers. JACOB: The reason I was curious about joining together all kinds of different people from different roles, I was just curious if that diverse workforce came with a diversity of priorities and goals for a union and if those presented any challenges. MELISSA: Yeah. There's a big class difference between engineers and people outside of engineering. Engineers are overwhelmingly paid higher than people outside of engineering, for example and I totally understand the resentment towards engineers. We need to acknowledge that if you're organizing multiple people and outside of engineering. I mean, the fact that engineering is so well-compensated. I don't understand why, for example, a video producer isn't compensated the same as an engineer. It's just an accident of history, how culturally valued, supply and demand, all these things mixed up together. So you have to realize that and when it comes down to money, paying dues. For an engineer, it might be like, “Oh, you're taking 1%, or 2% for the union,” and that's like, “Oh, that’d take you away from being able to go on vacation.” Whereas, for someone who is making a lot less, that's taking away from their ability to pay rent. So that is really, really hard and I don't have a good solution for that. I wish unions would offer things like maybe peg it to your income, maybe not, maybe at a lower percentage, but it tends to not be that high of a percentage; it's 1 to 3%. But acknowledging that that can be the difference between someone being able to afford or not. Especially the salary ranges were quite extreme in our case so, that was really hard. CASEY: I'm listening to this conversation based on my background as a product manager who happened to have managed engineers, designers, and product managers, I don't know how that structure came into play. But even that tier, I wanted to be part of a union, but I think it's US law maybe that gets in the way that says managers at any level can't be unionizing in any form, not even like—let's use a synonym for a union—collective people who tell each other, “Yes, you deserve more money,” or something like that. It's not we're not incentivized to work together in any way and we pretend that the HR department of the company does that for us, which they do the opposite often. What do you think about that middle management kind of thing and how it plays into product management? Your thought process? MELISSA: Yeah. That really sucks because then it becomes like some people feel left out who wanted to be part of the union and at that point, they feel like, “Oh, am I part of –?” Like, they're obviously not C-suite so that's really hard. Other countries have other types of unions like sectoral bargaining that get around that. I don't know that much about that, but we weren't sure if a product manager fit under the definition of qualify, or not. It just depends on if you make decisions on employment, if you tell people what to do, there's a lot of criteria. We did find that product managers were not going to be part of the union. So what does the product manager do? Well, they can't organize themselves, but they're just not legally protected under this bargaining thing under a labor law. So that really sucks and I don't know what the solution is. I guess, getting involved in bigger organizations that work for unionization. The Google union is very interesting and that is a different form of union. It's called a minority union and I don't know that much about those, but I know that people who are managers can join that one, but it has fewer legal protections. So I assume when CWA decided to organize Google under a minority union, it was because they felt they were not capable of doing the traditional union because there are so many obstacles to doing so in Google—Google’s size and multiple locations. It's very difficult. You can organize however you want, it's just what is legally protected and that kind of goes in, in that article. I talk about petitions, for example. Petitions are an example of organizing. That's not unionization, it's not protected by US labor law, but it is a form of organizing. The Google walkout, that's a form of organizing. That's not unionization. You just have fewer legal protections and you don't have the structure that you get from a union when you do those things. CASEY: Well, that's awesome. I'm not up-to-date on this. I'm going to be Googling minority union and sectoral bargaining after this call. MELISSA: Yeah. I didn't even know what a minority union until that came out. I was like, “Wow, I guess, someone should write a book.” There probably is a book. I'm going to find that book. JACOB: Melissa, what brought you to doing this in the first place? Did you have experience with organizing before, or was it something new to you? MELISSA: I didn't have any experience organizing, I suppose, but I was in a union before. I worked at University of Illinois in Chicago and their IT departments are in a union, an older established union. As soon as you join as an employee there, you're a part of that union. Actually unions, some of them aren't that great. Our union was kind of mediocre, to be honest. They barely involved people, for example, in the very top down. That's one thing when you're organizing, you have to choose which union you're going to organize under, or even to start your own union. We thought about starting our own union. I don't feel that qualified to hire union lawyers. You need to advantage money because CWA provided that all the lawyers and stuff like that and all the structure. CWA has gotten a lot of flack on Twitter recently with the Google union stuff. People have dug up the fact that they've represented security guards in the past, but it's a big organization; it's like working with the government. You can't expect perfection, we've got to get involved. If you want to change things, you've got to be involved yourself. I'm very skeptical of the idea that we should just throw that away and start our own thing as tech workers. Because I think people of different ages and classes and stuff have so much to teach us and that's what you get when you join a big union like CWA and you can't demand they fit your extremely online standards. So if you want them to follow the standard, you've got to join and get involved. JACOB: So definitely a politics of compromise from the get-go. MELISSA: Yeah, and I've been involved with the civic technology a little bit. So I was a little bit familiar with that. I've worked in government contracting and I've gone to Chai Hack Night, which is a Chicago meetup, for quite a while. It's a Chicago meetup focused on civil technology and government. I was familiar with some of that, but if you're a startup person, maybe that's harder. You expect unions are going to cater to you, treat you like a freaking princess or whatever, but no, they're not. They are a saboteurization. They've got members, they have a history, and you've got to take that for what it is. CASEY: All right, Melissa, you brought to the table to the union organizing effort your superpower of being extremely online. What other skills did some of the union organizers have that really helped? MELISSA: Yeah. Actually being consistent and organized, that's really important. Organizing meetings. I'm not into that kind of thing and thankfully, there were other people who did that and I thank them quite a lot. Taking notes, following up, once you make me angry, I'm very effective at arguing with people. So that's a good thing about extremely online, but it's bad about being extremely online, but it did come in handy a few times when unionizing. But otherwise, doing in-person on the ground work, I couldn't do because I was remote and organizing the meetings, taking notes, following up with CWA, coordinating between different people, that stuff. The other people helped with that. The other members of the organizing committee and then after the union was recognized, we had an election and some people did that election where you elect the reps and other people did that and I was really happy because I was tired at that point. [chuckles] CASEY: So I'm going into a little bit of a different topic. Melissa, I think you mentioned something about companies and nonprofits who want to lead with petitions and you have some thoughts on that I'm curious to hear. MELISSA: I am super anti petitions. I think these organizations push them and I think they're just antithetical to unionization. A Coworker, for example, they really push you to do these petitions and a, you're alerting your boss that you're organizing, you're doing it under a way that's not legally protected. Why don't you just unionize? I understand that some people can't and if you genuinely can't, that's great, but I wouldn't trust Coworker to tell you if it's okay, or not. I have noticed that some of the conflict on Twitter regarding the Google union, some people involved with that are also involved in Coworker. So I'm really against that and another company that's spread it out. It's a startup, they're called Get Frank but they're also doing petitions. They're very antithetical to unionization and people don't want to say that because the people who were involved with that are nice people and some of them are even involved with Tech Workers Co and stuff and they're nice online, or they're well-respected, but at some point, you’ve got to say, “This is just anti-union.” REIN: Yeah. I mean, taking a collective bargaining opportunity that can stretch across multiple issues and organize the workforce to push for all of them and turning into a petition about a specific thing that has marginal support. I don't see how that helps. I mean, I don't think that those startups are disrupting business organization. I think they're disrupting union organization. MELISSA: Yeah, and I think more people should call them out and the fact that a lot of people who the media goes to for comments about tech organizing are like – so, Liz Fong-Jones, I really respect her. She's on Twitter and she's a member of the board on Coworker and I find that not good. REIN: I mean, I guess the argument is that any place where you can voice concerns and generate support within the workers, the employees is better than none, but that's not how the world works. We can have unions, too, or instead actually putting effort into that means that you're not spending that time putting effort into organizing. MELISSA: Yeah. So when we were first thinking about unionizing, I was on Tech Workers Co and they connected me to people at Coworker and they were really pushing out to do a petition. I'm really lucky that my coworker, Steph, could have connected with CWA because she was like, “No, let's talk to CWA.” CWA took it from there and they actually got us the motivation and the resources we needed to unite us. Whereas, Coworker was like, “Oh, we love unions, but why don't you do this petition first, it's building organization?” and CWA is like, “No.” Unfortunately, some people are taking the CWA being against that as an insult on them personally, which is really weird, that it's an insult for people who did past organization efforts that weren’t unionizing. I don't see why that is relevant. I understand sometimes you can't unionize and I respect other organization efforts, but you're taking an example of a company that can unionize and you're pushing them to do a petition. You're wasting their time. You're endangering their jobs. It's just bad. REIN: Well, I think if there was evidence that it starting with petitions led towards more formal union organizing, I would be more in favor of it, but I don't know of any. MELISSA: Yeah. People use the Google walkout, for example and I guess, the Google unions and the controversy on Twitter was about how the union wasn't involving the past organizers who did all this work for the Google walkout. I recognize Google walkout was an amazing thing and the people who organized that were really great, but that doesn't mean that you have to use their expertise to unionize. A union should be for the current employees. When I'm talking about our union at Glitch, I'm not speaking for the union. I was laid off. I'm not a member anymore. That's very sad. It's very unfair, but I'm not a member and the employees who are working there have insight into the company that I don't. So I don't expect them to recognize me, or to ask me for advice, or anything. I don't even talk to them that much anymore because that's their sphere. CASEY: I'm not an expert on Coworker, but this reminds me of another metaphor a little bit. Let me know if this is close, or not, or similarities and differences. So you know how when you look on the bottom of a solo cup, you see a triangle, or a cycle symbol with a number? Some of those aren't really recyclable and the lobbyists who made that happen, and you’re required to put them on, knew that ahead of time. So they are doing this small change, “Look, you can do the thing,” and then that stops people from pushing back against the production of it. It's helping, but not really and I'm hearing your view of Coworker seems to be helping, but not really. MELISSA: I mean, the Frank one is even worse. They're a for-profit startup. I'm like, “If anyone is giving them positive coverage, they are not asking the right questions here.” Actually, when I saw them written about, I attempted to join just to see what they were about and they rejected me because they were like, “Oh, you're already in a union. You don't need us.” So very interesting. They occasionally email me asking for my feedback, but I'm like, “I don't think you're worth my time.” REIN: If someone wanted to make a platform for unionizing, but I don't think you're going to get much traction in Silicon Valley on that one. MELISSA: There is one person who's doing that. It's called Unit, but I don't know that much about it. I'm just very skeptical of the idea that tech can disrupt unions and it's the easy way out to say, “Oh, the old unions, they're not radical enough. They don't cater to tech workers.” To throw that all away for those reasons is bad in my opinion, because they're not perfect, existing unions, but you're unionizing with a diverse workforce that has a history and has power and I don't know. I think it's also classist, too, like, “Oh, we don't want to organize with these people that aren't tech workers. We don't want to organize with these blue-collar workers.” They're not thinking that maybe explicitly, but that's what they're saying in a way. They don't want to say that, but that's what they're saying. REIN: Yeah. I personally have a problem with trade unions that is that they fracture the workforce and they prevent people with different trades from organizing together and historically, that's been on purpose. Like there's a reason the AFL is still around, but the Knights of Labor aren't. MELISSA: Yeah. I mean, unions are organizations, they’re just like companies and stuff. There's some that even have dark histories of racism and stuff like that. Although, trade unions are a little different than like CWA. This is where I wish I was more up to the terminology, but it's very complicated. REIN: I would just like to unionize whole companies and not worry about what job titles people have because I think that's the systems thinking way to do it. MELISSA: Yeah, and we unionized everyone in our company that qualified under the labor, the national labor law, and not just engineers so, that was good. Luckily, the people were into engineers being craftsmen, or whatever are usually typically anti-union, but otherwise, you'd think that they'd be like, “Oh, we need an engineer's trade union because we're like electricians, or something.” But I think that would not be a good direction. CASEY: Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense that there are unions for people who work at a company, separate from groups of people working on a technology like, Ruby user groups and all the other meetup groups for every technology everywhere and the conferences. It's like the skills are separate from the union, from the company and it's funny, I guess maybe historical that a lot of them are conflated together. All the engineers in the company are doing both a little bit. I like that we're cleanly splitting it now sometimes. That sounds great. Melissa, I noticed that you have a Substack newsletter, which is a popular thing lately. Not that you're working on a lot lately. I know we talked about that, but there's a trend for individual people to be writing more and more online lately and it seems like you're aware of that and in that sphere. What's your experience lately writing online, trying to get an audience and all that? The process. MELISSA: I say no to Substack because I'm like, “This is just more work and I don't need any more work.” I started a Substack because I was like, “Oh, a lot of people have Substacks.” But then I was like, “Oh, this requires me to do, this is another job.” You have to have a consistent thing and at least, we are starting to – Substack encourages paying creators. That's good. But at some point, it's like, “Oh, I'm paying like ten different creators. I wish there was this thing where I could just pay them all at the same time and they could have jobs and benefits. Oh, that's called a publication. Too bad, we've systematically disabled these by predatory capitalists, hedge funds and stuff, buying them and disposing of them.” Like what's happened to the Chicago Tribune. I had friends who worked there and that thing it's basically just been totally dismantled by predatory companies. So I think Substack is going to be here and other similar models are going to be here for the foreseeable future. But I don't think they are – I think it's sad. CASEY: Have you worked with any of the traditional publications to try to get things published? I know you do JavaScript content work. MELISSA: Yeah. So I originally was a food writer and I've worked for Chicagoist. I left Chicagoist because I didn't have time due to my tech job, but they unionized and they were shut down because they unionized and that's really sad. A lot of my friends lost their jobs. So I have a little bit of experience in the media world and I've watched the media world become so fractured and precarious and I think the tech industry has been unfortunately, a negative actor in that. But now, I primarily write about JavaScript and I do so professionally. It'd be nice to write about food instead, but I like JavaScript. I like coding a lot so that's cool. There's no jobs in food writing, though. CASEY: Tell us about something you wrote recently. MELISSA: I wrote about JavaScript date libraries and like the different ones that are out there and when you should use the library and when you shouldn't use the library and that's for the blog I work for, which is called Skypack blog and I do DevRel all for them in there, a CDN for JavaScript modules. Oh, here's the thing we can talk about: how people attack DevRel as being non-technical and I hate that. JACOB: Yeah, please. MELISSA: There was a tweet this week, or maybe it was on Friday, it was like, “Offend a developer relations person in one tweet,” and I'm like – so it was a variation on the original one, which was, “Offend a software engineer, offend a DBA in one tweet,” and those were often there a software engineers making fun of software engineers or DVA's people making jokes about data structures, or a bad data. The DevRel one was like, “Oh, your job is fake.” That's what all the jokes were and most of them were not from DevRel people and I'm like, “I hate this.” I used to be a frontend developer and people used to joke like that about frontend developers, like, “Oh, you just play with CSS all day and you just push little boxes around the page and give them different colors.” We need to recognize that there’s sexism involved in this and also, racism because frontend development and DevRel tend to be more diverse subsections of tech. I'm just tired of men saying a job is fake and that I'm not technical. I left frontend dev because of that, partially. I shouldn’t have done that because the end of the day, there's no way to convince these people that you're a real engineer. They're just not going to be convinced because they're sexist and they're jerks and they should be deleted. REIN: Yeah. It was kind of funny when it was software engineers laughing at themselves, but it turned into punching down pretty quickly and then it just got me in and I did not like it. I would say to those people that they should try a day in the life of a DevRel and see if you think you're good at it. MELISSA: Yeah. It's thinking that, okay, if you have these skills, you don't have the technical skills and also, that your other skills aren't valuable at all. This is a constant struggle, working with engineers, especially working in cross-departmental is engineers not recognizing other skills. I was talking about video editing before. I'm like, “That is the worst thing I can totally think of is calling a video editor non-technical; they're literally the most technical people I could think of.” They're walking with software technology and also, a lot of engineers who are like, “Oh, anyone can write things,” and I'm like, “I've edited y’all’s writing. I know you can't write.” [chuckles] Even me, I feel like sometimes the more engineering I do, the worst I become as a writer. That's scary, but I try to balance it. I try to be a mediocre engineer and a mediocre writer. REIN: I want people to stop doing that because it’s just a shitty thing to do, but I will also say that as you get more experienced as a software engineer – so I'm a principal now, which means I'm a huge deal, but as you get more experienced, you need to get good at a lot of the stuff that DevRels are good at. You need to be able to convince people that your ideas are good. You need to be able to communicate both verbally and written in writing. You need to give a shit about product and marketing and customer support and people who aren't engineered. You have to start doing all that stuff if you want to grow as an engineer. So to some extent, I think these people are limiting themselves more than are limiting DevRel. They should still stop being shitty people, though. MELISSA: Yeah. The whole principal engineer thing is funny because I was just thinking about how every company has a different definition for principal, senior, junior. That's one of the things that a union can help with and otherwise, it can be very arbitrary and you can feel like they're used to discriminating against people. So if the union can negotiate what a ladder is and what it means, that's way better than having just a random manager do it. That's my rant with all of tech. We're always constantly reinventing the same thing over and over again. Ladders were like, “Oh, we’ve got to build this from scratch for ourselves. Even though we have no training on building ladders, we're just going to invent this because we know everything because we're engineers.” Same with interviewing process. I'm like, “Oh, there's decades of research on interview process. but you want to invent your own new interviewing process.” I'm like, “At some point, you're just like experimenting on people and that's unethical.” I'm like, “Take your weird games elsewhere. If you want to design weird games, play Dungeons & Dragons, or something.” REIN: Yeah. I mean, if you want to take human performance seriously, you can do that. People have been doing that for decades. You just need to go take a course and read some books and started taking it seriously. It's not hard. I mean, it's hard to evaluate human performance because human performance is very complex, but it's impossible if you don't know what you're doing. MELISSA: Yeah, and I tried to get – any interview process I'm involved with designing. I'm like, “First of all, why am I involved with designing this? I'm not qualified. Second of all, at least I did read some research and I do know that the research shows that you want to do a structured interview.” If I can just get people to agree to that one thing, it's so much better than if they're just asking random questions. So structured interview means you agree on a structure beforehand for the interview, you agree on questions and what you're going to talk to the person about, or what exercise you're going to do, if you insist on doing programming exercise. You ask the same ones to every candidate. There's other things you could do to make it more fair, but if you just have that one baseline. Otherwise, it's so arbitrary. REIN: There's a book called Hiring A-Players, or something like that and I like some of the advice that it has, but I think the idea that you can distinguish between “A and B players” in an interview is pretty marginal. But I do like the parts about trying to make things more evidence-based when you're trying to assess capability. I think that a lot of the hiring practices we have today mostly are about providing motivated reasoning to hire people who look like you and that's about 90% of what they do. MELISSA: Yeah, and there's also this thing, I will die in this hill, but I have people who insist if we don't do a specific code exercise, or do some kind of screener that we're going to hire someone who can't code, who literally can't code and some people will have insisted that they've worked with such people. I'm really skeptical that like can't code. What does that mean? I don't know. Does it mean they just didn't integrate with the team correctly? No one tried to help them? I'm not sure. I'm just really skeptical of that. It just sounds like more hoops to jump through, but I have not convinced anybody of that besides myself. [chuckles] At least in workplaces. REIN: I think in my career, I've maybe worked with one person who I genuinely thought couldn't code, but that's when I was pretty new. What I think now is that they were really not put in an environment where they could be successful. They were dropped in immediately into a high-pressure scenario, with little experience, with a team that was small, under-resourced, over pressurized, and didn't have time to support them. So what I thought then was, “Wow, this guy sure can't code. He sucks.” What I think now is, “Wow, we sure screwed up putting him in that position.” MELISSA: Yeah. I've taught people to code who are 12. I'm really skeptical that someone was hired that managed, I don't know, I just sound like they're not managed well, or not onboarded well, but that'd be a cool, like, I don't know. Maybe I'm becoming too interested in HR, I will become an HR researcher and study the phenomenon of people saying that their coworkers can't code and what does that mean? REIN: Yeah. MELISSA: I mean actually find those people, ask them, and then find the people who supposedly can’t code and find out they actually can. They were in a very difficult environment, for example, or I don't know. I've been in environments where getting the dev environment started took you five days. No wonder they had trouble; you thought they couldn't code because you did set them up to being able to code. They had to install 40 different things and do a proxy, or whatever. So yeah. JACOB: I’m someone who’s very – well, there's that phenomenon stereotype threat you perceive that other people are making preconceived judgements about you. Like, “Oh, I'm the only person of color in my team and I can tell that I'm not expected to do well.” It affects your performance and as a white male, that actually does make some sense to me. If I can feel that I'm going to be judged for the output that I put out, instantly whether it's I didn't follow the great style, or it looks like my work is going to be picked apart immediately. That's just going to be debilitating and I'm just going to be constantly focused about looking good rather than trying to solve the problem. That is not what – Rein’s story does not surprise me at all. MELISSA: Yeah. If I actually hired someone who couldn't code, that would be actually exciting to me, it would be like My Fair Lady, or something because I could definitely teach them how to code and I'd be really impressed because I was like, “Oh, they were able to talk about all these projects and stuff and not actually be able to code?” I don't believe this person exists, by the way. REIN: The other thing I really wish people would understand is that human performance is ecological. The context matters. If you take one person and drop them into five different hypothetical companies, you'd get five different outcomes. They'd perform in different ways. You wouldn't get the same performance for them in those different companies because it's not just about the person. MELISSA: Yeah, and it's also about the demands of the job. I worked with one guy and people told me he couldn't code and what they actually meant was that they just didn't think he was technical, or something, but he was coding every day. He was doing Dribble templates, which is not considered the highest level of work by some snobby engineers. But that guy could definitely code and he did his job and it was very unfair to say he couldn't code. CASEY: I have a story I can share about some evidence-based interviewing I did back at the IT department. We evaluated hundreds of student employees to fix laptops every year—we hired a whole bunch—and we evaluated them based on the people skills and their technical skills on a scale we put that into data for all the points that evidence and structured questions and all that. Some people had a 5 on people's scales out of 5 and 1 on technical skills, or vice versa, or something close to that. And then we look back a year, or 2, or 3 later, after they had time to learn and grow in the position, we loved all the people with the 5 on people's skills. They were the best employees. They learned the most over time. We're proud of them. They were great to work with. They taught other people a lot, too. But the ones with the technical 5s weren’t people ones. A lot of them resigned, or didn't like the job, or people avoided working with them, they were solo employees. Maybe they got some work done, but that lesson that you can learn the technical part, but you can't necessarily learn the people part. Some of it's learnable if you're motivated, but the disposition is what really drove success in that role. I think that applies everywhere. It's not surprising. MELISSA: I wish there were more approaches teaching people skills because, I don't know, it feels like there's a lot of trainings for engineering skills, but not for people's skills. I've definitely like, I was raised by parents who were weird and homeschooled me. So I definitely use a lot of stuff like books to learn people skills and stuff like that. I don't know. It's super basic, but How to Win Friends and Influence People, that one. You could just read that. I mean, it gets you some of the way there. So I wish there were more resources like that. REIN: Yeah. I would say that you can learn people skills, but companies don't teach them. That's not what companies think is part of their responsibility. They think that they're hiring the person as they are and can teach them technical things. That's another problem, which is that companies aren't providing the opportunities to grow that people need. JACOB: There's probably different people's skills for different companies, that would be successful. MELISSA: Yeah, and it's the same thing. It's the saying that I've heard at workplace is like, “Oh, he doesn't know how to code.” I've also heard the same thing like, “He has no social skills.” It's like something you're born with and can't be changed and that's just your lot in life and I don't believe that. I was homeschooled and when I first went to school, you would have said, “I had poor social skills,” but now I have serviceable social skills. JACOB: I think Casey pointed out an important distinction between a disposition to be personable and learn and apply people skills versus the skills you have at a particular moment. I, as a neurodiverse person, I think that's a really important thing because I'm sure people have said behind my back many times in my life that I don't have people's skills without commenting on the disposition of my ability to do well and interface with people. I think they’re two different things. MELISSA: I think neurodiverse people—I'm also in that category—also sometimes are even better at certain people's skills because we've been told we have these issues and we really want to think about them. I've read a lot of books; I don't think most neurotypical people have read as many books as I have on human psychology. I wasn't a psychology major—I just want to know why are these normal people trying to get me to do these things? What does it mean? That's a level I’m asking? Yeah, but that's a skill and it's a learned skill that is valuable to me. REIN: Can we talk about unions again because I have a question? If you already talked about this before I got here, just let me know. But my question is: what would you say to someone who really has no idea how to get started with this, but thinks that there's an opportunity to organize their company is worried about retaliation and things like that and wants to get started? MELISSA: Yeah. Get in contact with, they could DM me and I could connect them to people at the current Glitch union, or two, you can approach a union directly. CWA is happy to help. The union that Kickstarter organizers worked under OPEIU, I think is also another option. It can be hard to pick a union because some only do local organizing, but there are some that are national like CWA. CWA has a lot of resources. I would just go with them at first. But you can always do your research and stuff. I'd just be careful with people who direct you to those petition sites, or whatever and that did happen to me. REIN: And don’t do your organizing on the company Slack. MELISSA: Oh yeah, for sure. Use Signal, don't do it on company time when you're supposed to be working, build social relationships with people at work. Although, it could be, I don’t know if – I was a member of a company where they specifically seem to discourage social relationships. I was a contractor. I wonder if that was a way that they were discouraging organization and unionizing. You see that with Uber and stuff like that. Uber drivers, they're not given a company Slack, pr whatever, or even like, they don't have a way to chat with other drivers. They've had to do this on their own time on Facebook; they've used Facebook to organize. So definitely don't use any company resources, or company time. You're not legally protected if you do that. If you do contact CWA and stuff, they'll tell you what's legal and illegal. It is for example, legal to organize during lunch, I believe, but you should definitely check that beforehand. And then you get into issues if you're remote, time zones, everyone has lunch at a different time. You have to be creative. REIN: Yeah. It turns out it's legal, except for all of these loopholes that make it not legal and companies are incentivized to make the case that what you did was illegal so that they can fire you. So just be extra careful. MELISSA: Yeah. I don't know. I've known of union organizers that they're going to find a way to fire some of them, but if you can stand up and up in your job, you're harder to fire. Make sure to attend all your meetings. Don't be late to work. I am not a fan of that and I think it's very unfair that you have to be expected to live by this perfect standard that non-organizing employees don't have to follow, but I'm willing to do it for the union. REIN: Yeah. I mean, just be aware that once it becomes apparent that this is what you're doing, they're going to try to fire you—any company will—and so you need to be on your best behavior even more so than you were before. MELISSA: And it is scary organizing unions. I've often wondered would I have been laid off if there was a union, or not? I don't know. But the thing is you negotiate severance for me and I didn't have to do that individually. So it gave me a good cushion when I was laid off and I know people who are laid off who didn't have those things. A company can hurt you even if you don't unionize and at least, unions give you some protection and I'm very grateful to CWA negotiating my severance. REIN: So are we getting close to reflections? CASEY: I think it is time for reflections. I can go first. As a product manager and engineering manager before, I've always been interested in being part of a union and it's awesome hearing a success story about how, what happened at a company, even though it was the formal type that I'm not eligible for as a manager. But now I'm very interested in looking up some of these alternative forms like sectoral marketing, minority union. I think there's a whole lot happening recently that could help middle managers like me and a lot of my roles have the benefits. Often, I hear, “No, you can't possibly ever be part of a union. Why would you even ask that question?” And it's just great to hear someone actually who has worked with a union and say, “No, that's possible. It's just a different form. Not covered by loss.” That's what I want to hear. That's what I wanted to believe. MELISSA: Yeah. It's so unfair. Unions are just what's the law now doesn't have to be the law tomorrow, for example and different countries have different forms of unions and stuff, so. JACOB: I'm thinking more about the thread we got on about personal skills, people skills and I'm thinking more about how those can be really just a function of the culture of your team and who's on it and what everyone's individual needs are and how their brains are wired and so many other factors. I'm just thinking about, “Well, what are the right skills that I need for my team rather than just an arbitrary, or a universal list of what those skills might be?” MELISSA: Yeah. I'm thinking I need to like – I'm here talking about unions and there's so much I don't know about unions. I'd like to study unions in other countries, especially. I really want to learn about different forms of unionization and really delve into the history of unionization. I've done it a little. I was never taught that much about unionization in school and stuff like that, especially from homeschool because my parents were anti-union. But even when I went to public school, after being homeschooled, we really didn't talk that much. I know about the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, but I think for most people, we don't know that much about it and I definitely want to beef up my history and international knowledge on that. REIN: Yeah. I think also looking into collectivization work around collectives, things like that, there's a tech consultancy that does the websites for Verso and Haymarket and some other lefty publications and there are workers collective and there are actually a surprising number of them. MELISSA: Yeah. That's super interesting to me. I've done a little bit of co-ops and stuff. I've been members of co-ops. There is an interesting article, I forget where I saw it, but it was about how co-ops can be good, but they're not the answer to work, or organizing because often they replace work, or unionization. For example, they were talking about this coffee shop that they were trying to unionize and they all got fired and then they formed a co-op and that was seen as success, but it's not necessarily. For example, I'm a member of a co-op, a food co-op, and the workers there were trying to unionize and the co-op was union busting them and that was like, wow, that is really special and as a member of the co-op, I was writing to the board. I was like, “How dare you, I'm going to quit.” [chuckles] We should recognize the union. They really fought that union and I was like, “This is supposed to be – co-op is supposed to be empowering to workers,” but just like unions, there are many different forms of co-ops. There's a very interesting history, especially internationally and I don't even know the tip of the iceberg on that. But I'm very fascinated and having been in co-ops and been involved with co-ops. Another issue with co-ops is often the membership that can be almost like trade unions in that, there can require an onerous process to join one. REIN: I think the thing I'd like to leave our listeners with, you might've heard the saying, “An injury to one is an injury to all,” and you might know that that comes from the IWW, I believe. But you might not know that it comes from preamble to their constitution, which says in part, “Trade unions foster a state of things which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping to feed one another in wage wars. Trade unions aid the employing class to mislead workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers. These sad conditions can only be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all of its members in any one industry, or in all industries, if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on.” So the IWW obviously believes very strongly, you have to organize whole companies and not just the techies maybe get their union because they're special. I mean, can you imagine if Uber, if the tech workers and the drivers unionized together? They share the same interests, folks they could do that. MELISSA: Yeah. That's an interesting question. Like, could they? That's another thing that contracting, or permalansing, I don't know, maybe there'll be a major court challenge, especially with the Biden administration where the National Labor Board might be more sympathetic. Can contractors unionize with regular workers? Contracting is a way to bust unions and to keep people in a position of precarity, but what if they ruled that you can unionize. Once you realize that’s arbitrary, you're like, “Oh, if you've got good enough lawyers, if you have politicians that can get involved, maybe unionization 10 years from now will look really different because maybe they –” REIN: Yeah, the main difference is that the drivers don't have multi-million dollar lobbying organization that they're backed by. That's the main difference and the reason they're not getting the respect they deserve. Special Guest: Melissa McEwen.

01:49 - Kurt’s Superpower: Lifting Others Up: “A rising tide lifts all boats.” 07:00 - “Self-Taught” vs “Self-Guided” vs “Self-Motivated” Developers 11:32 - The Intersection of Incarceration and Technology * Destigmatizing Incarcerated Folx * Hiring the Formerly Incarcerated * Providing Stability to Folx Coming Out of Incarceration 22:15 - Having Privilege Working in DevRel to Raise These Issues * Bias and White Privilege 26:51 - Helping and Advocating For the Formerly Incarcerated 29:32 - The Interview Process as it Relates to the Formerly Incarcerated * Background Checks * Rolling Jobs 36:26 - Always Be Applying (ABA); Technical Interviews and Fabrication/Bending Truths * Voluntary Disclosure: I'm an Impostor - Incarceration and Living a Lie (https://theworst.dev/im-an-impostor) 45:29 - Problematic Binary Identities 47:07 - What can companies and hiring managers do? / Problems with Hiring in Tech and Tech Interviews * Make No Assumptions * Avoid Feigned Surprise * Don’t Treat People Differently * Don’t Take Advantage * Don’t Interrogate 01:05:19 - Contextualizing Advice Reflections: Kurt: Community is what you surround yourself with. Laurie: Having empathy and understanding as a hiring manager for people who have perceivably negative things in their background. Jacob: Polyglotism and not being so gatekeep-y. John: Being reminded of how terrible our carceral state is here in the U.S. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with $100 in free credit for listeners of Greater Than Code. You can find all the details at linode.com/greaterthancode. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/greaterthancode and click on the "Create Free Account" button to get started. JACOB: Hello, everybody and welcome to Episode 226 of Greater Than Code. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I’m joined with my co-panelist, John Sawers. JOHN: Thank you, Jacob and I’m here with Laurie Barth. LAURIE: Thanks, John. I’m excited to introduce our guest today, Kurt Kemple. Kurt Kemple is a technical writer, speaker, and software developer living in Virginia Beach, Virginia. He’s very passionate about the intersection of technology and incarceration. Currently, he works for Apollo GraphQL, as a Developer Relations Manager and when not working he can be found by the ocean or relaxing with his family, which sounds really incredible. So Kurt, I'm going to have you start us off by answering the question we ask all of our guests, which is what is your developer superpower? KURT: Well, first thank you for that awesome introduction. It's a pleasure to be here. So diving into what is my superpower, I thought about this a lot and I'm not really someone who I feel has some innate skill or ability that really makes me stand out in any particular area. But I think one thing that I do really well is I care very much about lifting up the people around me. I work actively to generally help others more than I'm helping myself. I think the rising tide lifts all boats kind of mentality and I think that that is definitely something that sets me apart is I gauge my success by how successful folks around me are. JACOB: That sounds fantastic. Was that something you felt like you've always done, or was it something do you consciously develop, or did it just sort of come around? KURT: I think it evolved out of situations in my life. I've dealt with a lot of stressful situations and pretty tough upbringing and I think a lot of it is just finding opportunities to make sure people don't have to experience those things and not being so drastic that it's always in relation to something very life altering. But there's something about removing roadblocks for other folks that you have the ability to do that is very rewarding to me and I think I just started to realize that later in life that that's something I value greatly. LAURIE: That's really interesting to hear because I think in a lot of areas of technology and in the industry, we often hear people saying like, “I had to do it, so you have to do it, too.” I've heard that with sort of the toxic interview, it's almost like hazing mentality and the tools may be abstracted, but if you don't know the super, super low-level piece of it, then you're never going to understand it the way I do sort of mentality. A lot of this gatekeeping stuff comes from that. So it's really refreshing to hear that you feel sort of the opposite of that. KURT: Yeah. Like I remember very distinctly, many times starting out programming, like getting the response: RTFM. It's like, people, they don't want to help for whatever reason. They want you to – it's like almost like a badge of honor; forcing folks to figure things out for themselves. There's something to be said with taking on learning as your own responsibility, but part of learning is knowing how to get answers and ask for help when you aren't figuring it out and so, I definitely really cannot stand to see that kind of lift the ladder up behind me mentality, or pull yourself up by the bootstraps type mentality. JACOB: So who are those people around you in your role with Apollo? Who are the people that you would measure the success of? KURT: Yeah. So it's actually spread out across multiple things, but I'll start from Apollo. I'm a manager of the developer relations team so definitely my direct reports absolutely care about how well they are doing as well as the DX organization, it extends out to their world. We're all part of developer experience and we want to make sure that things we're doing is helping lifting up the education team and DX as a whole. And then of course, that spreads out into Apollo, which is just by helping developers be successful with Apollo, we're actually helping a policy succeed. But when we talk about developer relations, really that's just communities I'm involved with at all. So that could be anybody from the communities that I'm a part of, whether that's content creation, DevRel, things around GraphQL, or developments, it could be anything related to that. Pretty much any person that I have interaction with, I start to look at ways in which I can help them move forward. JOHN: It's funny the phrase “bootstrap” is so embedded in our culture because it's coming from – it’s technical terminology at this point, but it's so interesting and I think important to think back to the origin of that phrase, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” was satirical because it's obviously, not possible to do that for you. You can't lift yourself by grabbing your boots and that's the whole point, but it's almost like turned over on itself and becoming oh, that's just what you do as economic policy or a social policy despite the fact that it was originally the complete opposite of that. KURT: Yeah. It's funny. I never really thought about that, but it's very true. They took something that was meant to be like satire, like, “Oh yeah, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps,” and then turned it into something serious. I still view it as satire. To me, it's the silliest phrase ever, but a lot of folks take that very seriously. JACOB: What else is satire or was originally satire was the word, “meritocracy”? KURT: Oh wow. JACOB: Yeah. It was basically like oh, the new aristocracy of people who think they're on top because of their merit; it's the meritocracy. It's something else I think about is the phrase self-taught; ex self-taught developer, self-taught engineer, or the million Medium posts of how I taught myself to code in 12 weeks. What does that mean, taught yourself? Do you have no interactions with any human? JOHN: You didn’t think a human produced? LAURIE: Yeah. The self-taught thing is actually really complicated and nuanced in my mind because a lot of people like to claim it and say, “Well, we're all self-taught because we all read blog posts and have to teach ourselves other things because as a developer, you're always learning new things and so, we can all claim that title.” And then there's the area of people who consider themselves self-taught, but they were working one-on-one through DMs with someone that is a working developer and they know really well. But then there's actually a last category of people, which is what I feel the label was sort of designed for, which is they never had any formal classroom experience that taught them like, the variable goes on the left side of the expression. So they had to learn just those super fundamental syntactical things through reading and through example videos and potentially sometimes asking questions, but it was a very async process. I think that's what self-taught is designed to imply that there wasn't a curriculum laid out in front of them and that they didn't have a helping hand along the way. I think there's something incredibly powerful about that and I hate the idea that it's been co-opted as well, everyone's self-taught, I'm like, “No, I got to sit in a computer science program and have teachers tell me what I needed to know in a certain order.” Was that necessarily the best way for me to learn? No. Did I have to go in and teach myself how to do things after that fact and for the rest of my career? Absolutely. But did I have some of those baseline foundational things conveyed to me based on someone who knew the order of operations of learning this topic? I did. So I am not self-taught in any sense of the word. KURT: Yeah. I think that's very interesting point and what I've been using. So I'm the other end of that spectrum. No official – that's actually not true, I took intro or intermediate web development course when I was incarcerated. But this was basically, here's a book on HTML, CSS, and JavaScript and good luck. But aside from that, I had no real formal education, but I've adopted the term self-guided, which I feel is a better descriptor of that. Because it's more about guiding yourself through a curriculum to learn programming and it's like, you're pulling bits and pieces from wherever. You can find it to create your own curriculum is essentially what you're doing. But I did learn from lots of other folks along that journey, both through asynchronous communication and DMs, watching videos, reading, blog posts and stuff. So it's not like I was in a room with no outside influence and had a computer and was like, “I will code.” But I think I really like that term, self-guided, because that's a better representation, I feel like of what actually happened. LAURIE: I love that and it reminds me of when I was in high school where you get to take independent study and it's sort of the same concept of you get to go in-depth on a topic, but you're determining what shape that takes and where you go and what you focus on. JACOB: What successful means. KURT: Yeah. JACOB: And then no one will probably care, to be truthful. No one will actually care if you don't do it. LAURIE: Yeah. Yeah, that's the other thing; self-motivated is a big part of that. Like, no one's grading papers or assignments. There's no papers in coding. [laughter] No one is grading assignments. You don't have deadlines that are imposed by other people. If you buy the course and you never watch a single video, the only one accountable for that is sunk cost fallacy of having wasted the money. There's nothing forcing you to power through and that's actually a great way to prepare yourself for coding on the job. Because it's like, technically, there's just this ticket and you need to be looking at it and feel the sense of oh no, I need to get this done because no one can actually force you to do it! [laughs] KURT: Yeah. That's very accurate. [chuckles] JOHN: Concurred. It sounds like from your bio there that the group of people that you consider yourself to be responsible for helping to lift up is beyond just the team that you're responsible for. So I’d love to hear more about the other groups that you're working with on that level. KURT: Yeah. So, I think it's interesting when we talk about community and groups and to me, community is not like a thing with guidelines and boundaries, community is whoever you surround yourself with and so, to me, there is no React community, or GraphQL community. There's just people in my community who happened to know React, or GraphQL and I think it's an interesting way to look at community because it breaks down a lot of barriers. But if we do talk about specific groups, I am very into the intersection of incarceration and technology and the reason why is because I myself am formerly incarcerated and getting into tech had such a drastic effect on my life. So it’s just naturally, I want to and again, a lot of this motivation for lifting others up stems from this. I feel like I am often sitting on a gold mine and I feel selfish when I know that there are people who were in a similar situation who are coming out of prison and don't have any idea that this industry exists, that they can have a future in it with some self-guided learning, some hard work, and a lot of perseverance. It's by no means easy, let's be real. Coding is a very difficult skill, but most folks can accomplish that goal of learning it and it just feels like if I'm not actively working to help expose people, who are coming out of incarceration, find this industry and see if it's a fit for them, then I feel like I'm just like holding something that I should be freely giving away. I think a lot of where it comes with lifting others up is that feeling of, I'm holding something that other people should have access to and that's education, information. When we talk about self-guided, it's actually one thing about picking your own curriculum that is anxiety inducing is, am I picking the right things to learn? The industry is huge and you could pick so many different things and I lucked out that I was introduced to something that was a good path into tech for me. I would like to provide folks coming out the information that the industry exists, but also a little bit of guidance around some of the different ways that you can go and break into it. So I'd say that is definitely a community, or a group of folks in my community that I care deeply about is those who are transitioning from incarceration back into society. LAURIE: I'm curious if – obviously, this is an experience and a community that a lot of us don't have a lot of insight into and it's great that you do and you have those connections. Can you talk to us a little bit about the kinds of things that we all can do to make that transition easier to support those groups of people, whether it's in an organization or outside of that? KURT: Yeah. I'll say there's really two avenues where you can do a lot of good. One is in de-stigmatization. So it's sharing information about incarceration, figuring out who these people in the community are, building relationships with them, checking at your companies, and seeing if they're adhering to the laws around hiring formerly incarcerated folks. A lot of times background checks will violate labor laws within states and companies don't check that. They say, “Give me the default. I want all the information.” It's up to the company to actually check and make sure that they have the proper configuration that they're not losing people based on laws. A good example of this is in California, they can only look 7 years back on your record for criminal activity, barring certain types of activity. But for most things, only 7 years. However, there's companies that will do background checks and pull stuff up from way back. I had this happen with a company and I was like, “Hey, just to let you know, you're not allowed to pull up information from when you did. You showing me that you found my background is actually admitting that you're violating the state laws.” Now here's where the problem lies. It takes people who are the ones, the vulnerable being affected by it to push this forward because our only recourse is to hire a lawyer and to fight it in court. I'm jobless, have just come out of prison; I don't have any money for a lawyer to fight some company, to do that and then do you want to go now work for a company that you had to fight for the job in court? So it takes people who are not in that situation asking their employer, “Hey, what is our policy on hiring formerly incarcerated? What programs do we have in place to make sure we're not dropping them out of the pipeline?” That's a huge one. And then the second one is most people don't really want to go back to prison. That's not always true. You have people who actually do want to go because it's a place where they can get more stability and safety and stuff than they can. That says a lot about the United States as a whole, but most people, they come into prison with high hopes. I wasn't the only one in that web programming class like, I wasn't the only one learning how to train dogs, learning welding, carpentry, plumbing; taking every course that was available to me. There's a lot of other folks, too. But what people don't have and why recidivism is so high is there's no stability. So we get these skills. We get out into the world. We have no income. We have no job history for years because of this. Companies that would hire folks for the skills that we have learned are doing background checks and turning us down because of them. So it's like yeah, we're learning skills, we're learning stuff, but none of it can actually be used until x amount of years after you get out and you're just kind of left floating there. So finding programs, local programs that are based in civil activities, providing housing, providing food, providing access to equipment and education, further education for folks coming out of incarceration. Those are the two best places that you can by far have a huge impact. $50 worth of food can be the difference between somebody going back to prison or not. Because if they don't have it, they're going to revert to what they know and what they know is crime often, and then boom, they go back. Of course, if we look at who's the most affected by this, it's marginalized communities. So focusing on those communities is especially going to be impactful. JOHN: Yeah. I would also imagine that the lack of a support system in the outside world is also a huge factor there. Like you were saying the $50, people that have a support system can probably make-do relying on other people that they know to help out, to get by through that part where they need that extra money for food. But if you don't have that, there aren't really any other options. KURT: Yeah. It took me almost 3 years to land my first job coding as a software developer and I can pinpoint multiple times during that 3 years where I came very close to committing a crime again and that's wild to think about now. Now, I would never in a million years do anything, but I also have stability. It’s just a living example, somebody directly in front of you just proving that the prison system, prison industrial complex is really just a money-making machine that is not incentivized in any way to help provide you with stability and keep you out of prison. Most of our prisons are actually owned by private businesses and private businesses need revenue and for a private prison, what do you think the revenue stream is? Prison labor, slave labor, me working for 14 cents an hour. That is how they make money. So what is the real incentivization, or real incentive, I guess, is the actual word to actually have programs to help people be stable when they get out? To provide learning and education around things they'll actually be able to get jobs for? To not have lobbyists literally fight to keep laws around hiring formerly incarcerated as strict and terrible as they are? So the prison industrial complex literally sends people to Congress and have them lobby against improving these systems and then they pay people at the state level and it's just like all the way down. They pay judges to make sure they send non-violent offenders into the prison system. It's a nightmare of a system, but to circle back to that, that $50 makes a huge difference and can really be the differentiator. LAURIE: For what it's worth, I appreciate you being so candid about all of this. I think it's a topic that some of us are tangentially aware of, but don't necessarily have the specifics. I remember some of this from my poly-sci degree and it was horrible then and it's worse now. KURT: Yeah. It's not fun or pleasant, but I am privileged enough to be in a position to candidly speak about it and so, again, if we use manager speak, [chuckles] circle back to lifting up others and feeling like I'm holding onto something. This stuff is really stressful. It's hard to talk about even with as much as I do, but I find that the DMs that I get from folks who are struggling and trying to get into tech. When they reach out to me and they're like, “I found your blog posts or this podcast or video and it gave me hope,” I'm going to keep trying that's that motivates the ever-living crap out of me and it far outweighs that pressure. But another thing, too is not everyone is in a position to be able to speak about this. It's just, I've developed enough of a brand and identity in the industry. I have enough of a work background. The incidents have happened so far in the past now that they can't really be held against me for finding future work. So not everyone has that situation. LAURIE: I'm curious if you feel like being in the developer relations space has impacted your ability to have those conversations and have those interactions and be more visible compared to some sort of a more IC coding role where you don't necessarily have the same kind of network effect based on the work that you're doing day-to-day. KURT: Yeah. Oh, that's a really interesting insight. I mean, yes, the faster the audience grows that I can reach, clearly, it’s the more people I can reach with this message. So I definitely think DevRel has put me into a situation where I can reach more people faster because my network is growing faster than it was as an individual contributor. So yeah, a 100%. I think it's also interesting to find the balance between like, we all know how tech folks feel about people being people and having lives outside of technology. So it's like finding that line of growing your audience while producing information about things or causes that you care about and stuff without causing a lot of churn in drop off is a feat in and of itself. Every time I tweet about prison or something like that, I watch my followers drop. It's just like you can set a clock to it. But it's an interesting balance to try to not overshare in that regard and just continue to lose audience because then that affects things like algorithms and how many people I reach and stuff. So it is interesting. I never really thought about that, though. JOHN: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that like the way you talk about the work you're doing. At this point, you have the privilege to be able to talk about those things when so many people don't and that's certainly a powerful way to use that privilege that you currently have. What you're talking about there is losing follower count, which affects your job a little bit and trying to balance how you're talking about these things without cussing yourself too much. But it's interesting that those are the costs that you're weighing about speaking out and you know what those are and you also know that so many other people can't speak out because their consequences are going to be so much more drastic. KURT: Yeah, absolutely. When we start to look at this through the lens of bias in the industry. I am cis white dude; I have the benefit of like failing upwards. So it's like me going to prison, I get to spin it as this redemption story and I get to be the symbol of hope for prisoners coming out and breaking into tech. But it's not the same story for a lot of folks that I talk to who don't look like me or aren't basically white men. It gets really tough the further you get from that. So I also want to call out, too that a lot of times, the privilege to be able to speak is based on literal white privilege; I always get the benefit of the doubt. It's interesting, but yes, I get the benefit of doubt. I get to fail upwards. I'm formerly incarcerated, who's now the DevRel manager of Apollo. But I know so many other formerly incarcerated people who are way better at this stuff than I am and they still haven't found a work yet. So those disparities exist and when you compound other issues that the tech industry faces against that. Like, the hiring rate for formerly incarcerated Black women is like 4% or something ridiculous like that according to last statistics, from what I could find, which was about 2019. That's 4% compared to white males, which is about 43 or 44%. We have to take that into account, too. That privilege is steeped in white male privilege as well. JOHN: It's like the prison association just magnifies all of those existing inequities. KURT: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're an ex-con, or a felon—I get to be formerly incarcerated, not a felon. JOHN: Yeah, the language matters a lot. KURT: Oh, yeah. JACOB: So what are some of the details of how you're helping folks? It looks like you have, it’s a Twitch stream? I just pulled up your Twitter account just a minute ago, but tell me details. KURT: Yeah. It's interesting. So when we think about helping people, I have stream, which I do a lot, a lot of blogging, involved in a lot of communities. Most of the work that I do. So if we're just talking about community in general, also the Apollo stream; I do a lot of streaming for them. My calendar is open; folks drop in there a lot. When it comes to helping formerly incarcerated, that's a lot more scaled down and on a one-on-one basis because every single person has a different situation. Also, a lot of them can't come forward and say that they're formerly incarcerated. There's an entire network of folks. Some of them can and they have, but there's an entire network of folks who I'm working with regularly and just, nobody knows because they can't really share or express that information. But I really focus on a couple of things, which is helping them figure out their path into tech, what it is that they'll like. So trying to get them guided on that, helping them build their network, teaching them about things like learning in public and how to do that. We work on freelance, because it's really hard for folks to get jobs, full-time employment so we focus on freelance work and how to look for red flags, clients, promote yourself, and stuff like that. It's generally different for each person because it all depends on where they are on the scale of their education into tech, how stable is their environment at home. It's just a lot of things that go into it. I am working on starting a nonprofit to formalize this training, but it's very slow going. I just really don't have the time that I would like to dedicate to it. Some other ways that I've been helping out is there's a really cool nonprofit project called The Marshall Project. They take a data-driven approach to exposing issues within the criminal justice system. I do a lot of stuff with that. I sponsor and support a lot of prison reform lawyers. They don't get paid a lot and stuff like that so monetary support for them, monetary support for the people who are coming out, who need that. There's really where I spend most of my focus, but if you ask anyone, I'm available. If somebody wants or needs something from me, I try to make myself available I talk to a wide range of people from all different communities about all sorts of different things. But I don't really have a centralized way, a singular path into helping folks out. It's pretty disparate, honestly. LAURIE: This is a slightly different topic, but it's something you touched on and what you just said. I'm wondering if we can talk about the interview process as it relates to being formerly incarcerated and revealing that information. Because I think one of the – I had an interaction with someone a couple of years back who said, “I got all the way through the process. I didn't tell them they offered me the job and now I have to tell them because it's about to come up on a background check,” which the efficacy of that we can discuss for a long time. “But it's about to come up on a background check, what do I do? How do I have this conversation?” I think we all know that especially for entry level positions, there's thousands of applicants and the minute you give them one red flag, they're like, “Oh, well, we have 500 other people to talk to.” So what has been your experience with talking to people going through this and how they can navigate what is already an incredibly stressful and difficult process, even not having some flags that unfortunately, don't get perceived the way that we wish they would? KURT: Yeah, this is a really great question. It’s the most – I won't say the most, it is an extremely stress and anxiety inducing situation. I've developed a system over the years from having dealt with this, but in the beginning, it was very chaotic. You would just get through the process; you don't say that you have a record, you don't come upfront and say it. You never do that. If they're going to do a background check, let them do it. I've had situations where companies have made me fill out paperwork for background check and then they never, I guess, submitted it because they never came and said anything about it, or maybe at that job, they were following their state's laws and it didn't come back. I would say it's a multi-step process. So first things first, never say that you have a background upfront. Second of all, is investigate the state laws around hiring the formerly incarcerated for that company for where they are located. Where is their business set up at? Understand those state laws? The next thing that's going to happen is if you get through the interview process and they're going to do a background check, so what they always do—this is the most annoying thing. Oftentimes, you will sign your offer letter. You will have a start date. You will do all this and in there, it says contingent upon a background check. This puts you in this situation where, especially if you're at an existing company, you want to give them time. Do you put in your leave and throw all of your eggs into this basket only to then come on and then they do the background check and then it comes back and they fire you? It puts you in this just purely stressful situation for about two weeks. But a couple of things that you can do to get ahead of it is I started doing things where I will message them and I get real creative and I'm like, “Look, I've had issues with discrepancies, with insurance and other things, not going through before I've signed my start date and then there were problems, disagreements. I need to know all the paperwork. I need to have that signed upfront and have everything taken care of before I will decide on a start date. I want to make sure I give ample time to leave.” So sometimes that will work and that will get you a lot closer. When that doesn't work, the other thing that I do is anytime they're going to do a background check, you have to consent to it and part of that consent is they'll tell you the company that they're going to use. If I've made it this far, I will then pay out of pocket and go get my own background check from this company. For most of them, you can do that. Now what it is that even if a company reaches out, I will put them off until I get the background check so I can see what has come back about my record so I can better prepare my statement for how I want to discuss this with them. If you make it through all of that and you get there, sometimes they just still are going to say no, or they'll just ghost you and I've had that happen to me, too. Just literally been ghosted and it's just hard, it's stressful. There's not a lot you can do with it. The best thing that you can do is understand the laws around the different 50 states, figure out which ones are the most forgiving towards you and your situation, apply for jobs—ideally, remotely—within that place. If you're in that position, a lot of people aren't in that position, but it's just stress-inducing nightmare. One thing that I did do is I always had backups. I would have offers from multiple jobs and accept multiple offers, which sucks. But then if I get one, I stay in and I don't, but I would stagger the start dates. LAURIE: Wow. KURT: Yeah. I learned that from my 3 years of trying to get my first job because even trying to work at Target, Walmart, all these places I check yes on that have you been convicted of a felony in the last 7 years and I'd never hear from them. So I just stopped checking it. I would get a job at Target. I would work there for three weeks and then they would be like, “Hey, background check came through. Wish you wouldn't have lied to us. You're one of our best workers, but now we have to let you go.” It's like, “Well, cool. You wouldn't have hired me anyway. I'll take my 3-week paycheck. I've already got a job lined up at McDonald's. So I'm going to go work there for three weeks now.” My first 2 years out of prison, I had like at least 10 W-4s, at least 10, probably closer to 20 my first year and then I got a little bit smarter about places that I was picking through the second year so I was able to stay places longer. But you just have to do whatever you have to do or you have to resort back to crime, really. That's always, my advice to folks is rolling jobs like, ABA. Always be Applying. Always be applying for jobs and lining them up so if they come at you, “We did your background check. We're going to let you go.” You can just go to the next place and you don't have to go so long without having income. LAURIE: That sounds like an incredibly stressful way to live. KURT: It is a very stressful way to live. Yeah, it absolutely is. And that kind of comes back to tech can change lives. Even my first job was a really crappy paying job doing pretty boring work, but I was so happy when I actually got my first job. It changed my whole life. Literally changed my life and then after learning about the industry, finally getting my job, talking to other industry professionals, I was able to realize how drastically underpaid and overworked I was. Slowly started to work my way out of that and up to a standard developer salary for this day and age. I make money today that I never dreamed in a world of possibility that I would ever make in my entire life ever. Never thought that this would be the life that I live today and it can really change folks' lives and that's why I'm so aggressively trying to help folks. LAURIE: It's interesting that you talk about Always be Applying. There was some Twitter threads stuff going around a couple of weeks back about that in relation to the tech industry and talking about you should always see what's out there and see if there's better possibilities. My first reaction was interviewing is the most stressful part of working in tech, who would voluntarily do that if they're not looking to leave a job? I suspect it is slightly less stressful in some ways, if you're applying to retail positions, but more stressful if you're dealing with something like a record. Just having to have that in the back of your mind and always trying to find a new job and that new security is – I mean, we talk about people in tech who do it every 1 to 3 years and that already seems like way too often. Every three weeks is just unfathomable to me. KURT: Yeah. It's like you said, it's a lot of stress. By the time you figure out who everyone is, you're onto the next place. You get so tired of hearing, “You're one of our best workers, but we have to let you go.” You can only hear that so many times in a year before you just never want to hear that phrase again. It's just very aggravating for sure. I will say that that was less stressful than tech interviews in my opinion. LAURIE: Oh, that's damning! JOHN: Yeah. KURT: Yeah, that was way less stressful. The anxiety of technical interviews, especially when they're asking me questions about my background, because I have to fabricate basically 10 years of my life and that was one of the hardest parts. So one of the hardest parts about having a record and not being able to share it, especially in an industry where everybody wants to know how you got there, it's very hard to build that lie around what you do and it starts to really weigh on you. I made me really depressed constantly having to lie. “Oh, how'd you learn how to code?” “Well, actually I was in prison and they had a course called Intermediate Web Page and I took it.” I can't say that. I can't say that. So I have to fabricate and then I just bend the truth, which it was true. Like, “Oh, a friend of mine was going to take this course, I decided to take it with them.” That was true. I just left out that that decision was made in prison. It's like, “Oh, I got my first taste of it and then I just started buying books to continue to learn and use any opportunity I could in front of a computer to continue programming.” Also true. Just didn’t mention that for the next about year and a half, I didn't have access to a computer and I picked that back up when I got out. Yeah. It's just about bending those truths and it's like, “Oh, well, where did you work?” Not a full lie, I'm like, “I did a lot of freelancing and consulting,” which I did. I did IT and website development and stuff, freelancing and consulting work, the little bits I could get. Doing a local plumber's website or something like that, helping somebody get all the viruses off their computer. Wonder how those got there. But it's stuff like that. So that's what I had to do. I had to fabricate this false history. Part of me coming out and talking about this was also selfish. It was just very depressing and I was tired of lying all the time. I was finally in a position where I felt that while coming forward about this part of my life could still have negative impacts that I have enough of a time distance and enough of an identity that I could probably still have a future in tech. That's what I did. I was at Major League Soccer and I let my team know and the people around me know and then I posted a blog post about it and that's really when everyone started to find out. This is only 2018, 2019. I got my first job in tech – or 2018. I got my first job in tech in 2013 so it was like 5 years, I went with only telling a couple people. LAURIE: I was about to ask if you still have to lie because I feel like the minute you Google you, that's one of the first thing that comes up, this really incredible post about your experience. It's like if someone didn't check your Twitter, I'm questioning the due diligence that they did and just relying on a background check seems a little odd if they haven't even looked up your social media. Your public technical, social media, not looking to see if you have a Facebook with lots of beer cans behind you sort of thing. KURT: Right. Yeah. No, absolutely. But you'd be amazed. I mean, people don't look at your social media first. It's interesting when we think about especially tech hiring; your resume in a pile and before you even get to that pile, you're just a resume that gets pumped through a system a lot of times. It's like until you build a network that is often yeah, you are a victim of that a lot of times. They're not going to know who you are personally before they see you on paper and that's very detrimental, but you would think they would do a little bit of research and look that up. It's actually funny, you brought up a good point, which is if you search, you'll bring it up. I worked so hard to actually get my actual prison from North Carolina thing pushed off the first page and build a public profile and now it's right back at the top, but because I put it there. So that is really funny. [chuckles] LAURIE: But that matters, right? KURT: It matters. LAURIE: It’s like voluntary disclosure versus something that you don't have control over, that is a huge, huge difference. I’m thinking of the Meghan Markle thing right now, where everyone's like, “She sued because they published a letter with her father, but now she's disclosing her pregnancy,” and I'm like, “Yeah, very different! One she chose to and the other one, she did not.” KURT: Exactly. Yeah, that's a huge difference. But it's just really interesting to think about that I'm back at the top of Google now for being formerly incarcerated. [laughter] But under much better terms and I get to tell my story and explain why. Not just be like a mugshot with some records. JACOB: If you had asked me before this episode, “Have you ever worked with an incarcerated person while you’re working in tech?” I privately would have told myself, no. I mean, I probably would have said, “I'm not sure,” but I think my implicit bias would have said no. KURT: Yeah. JACOB: And I think this is making me realize I probably have and I think probably a lot of our listeners have, too and it just either a, it didn't come up at all, or b, was handled in a way that it didn't get around to the rest of the workforce, which is probably the best thing. KURT: Yeah, there are some companies. I have found the companies that do you actually advocate for formerly incarcerated. They do it really well and only because I'm so vocal is why my team knows. Even at Apollo, they're very careful about it. We talked about my background actually coming up and then they were like, “Well, this wasn't supposed to show up, but even regardless, we're not going to hold this against you even if it was within the timeframe.” It was very nice and this is between us, it won't matter and I'm like, “Well, I've kind of let the cat out of the bag so it's not a big deal if it's between us,” but I loved seeing the approach that they took. You're right, you probably have worked with people who were incarcerated before. It's a large percentage of people who have been to prison in the US. A very large percentage, way more than it should be and so, it's really interesting to think about, but you're right. It hasn't come up. Most people who have been incarcerated aren't going to just leap out and be like, “Oh, that's an interesting thing. Let me tell you about the time I was locked up and how this was.” They're going to keep that to themselves because you never know how people are going to take it. You just don't know how people will react and some people, even if they are cool with it, will still look at you differently and I've had situations like that happen and it's tough to deal with, but it's a part of life. Again, I'm not trying to make this a sob story. I did things that put me in prison and I did my time and I I've paid my dues to society. Rightfully so. Well, there's a whole thing about the sentencing and what we should be doing in the US, but according to law, I paid my dues and I was released and really, the buck should stop there, but you don't stop doing time when you're released. You continue to do it pretty much forever because the US again, we have the stigma around prisons and why do we have that? Because the prison industrial complex is pushing this agenda that we have a lot of crime and we need a lot of cops and we need to lock people up and people who come out of prison are in prison or felons and bad people and deserve to be there. This is instilled into us from the time that we're kids and that's why I say the two most important things are providing stability for folks getting out and helping de-stigmatize having a record and helping break down the prison industrial complex. It's the only way we see a future where this is not an issue. LAURIE: This could probably be a whole other episode, but you saying that and talking about there are felons and they're bad people in there and it's instilled in us. It's the idea of a binary identity, which exists in so many different places in our society. There's good and bad, and there's right and wrong, and there's the reason that people hate using this term, because it's incredibly racist and problematic. It's black and it's white. All of these things are rooted in the same ideology, which is that to simplify the way that our brain experiences life, we can categorize things into one is good and one is bad. That's not the way the world works and that's not who people are. People take bad actions and they take good actions, but that doesn't make them bad people or good people. A lot of the reason we do that is because we like to tell ourselves we're good people. And I'm sure you've heard this phrase, I'm sure all of us have heard this phrase, but the phrase, “You didn't make good choices. You had good choices” is the same as the meritocracy argument, which is like, you had the ability to get somewhere because you started on third base, you had the ability to make all the right decisions and do all the things because you had stability and resources and comfort. Without those things, would you have made the same choices as the person that you're looking down on? Probably honestly, probably and you just have no idea what that's like. So I appreciate you pointing that out because I think we've had episodes in the past about binary identities and what problems that causes. JOHN: So Kurt, you called out something that's pretty interesting that was going by and what you were saying earlier about how Apollo treated you when they found out about your record and the way they went through that. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about if there's someone who's a hiring manager, maybe in a small company without a giant HR organization and strict policies around the hiring. What is a good way for that person to handle when they find out through the background check that the candidate that they really like has a record of some sort like, what's the good path there? KURT: Yeah. There's two things there. So I want to answer that question, but one thing I do want to actually circle back to very quickly, which is what you said about bigger companies with stricter policies. In my experience, it's actually the bigger companies that you have an easier chance of getting a job at. They have huge HR departments and law teams and want to protect themselves and we'll make sure that they're actually following the proper hiring laws and state regulations for wherever it is they are. I had no problem getting a job at AWS, but when you flip it in reverse to these startups and they outsource their HR to these other companies, that is actually where most of the trip-ups happen because they don't have – well, a lot of times it's ignorance of the situation. They're ignorant of the fact they're violating hiring and labor laws and they don't even know. So I just want to state that is something because that was something I learned, too that actually shifted my job search function was I would actually target more organized companies because I stood a better chance of knowing that if they did do a background check, it would actually follow the state guidelines. But to answer the question, that's a really good point and a really good question, I mean and a tough one to answer. I think just number one is making no assumptions. There's a couple things and this actually kind of relates to some other stuff. So there's going to be – you can't be defensive. I've discovered that a lot of times when people find out that you have a background, they feel somewhat lied to and it's like, “I didn't come up front about it up forward,” but it's kind of a bomb when it lands. Again, we have the stigma about people with records and then they see it, their first instinct is to be like, “Well, why don't you share this with me?” The obvious reason that it wasn't shared with you, but you might not be realizing it at the time, is because I don't know if it's going to matter getting this job. It's something that could hurt me and I don't want to reveal it until you've had a chance to get to know me. So just know that, the reason that they did not share it with you is because they wanted you to know them as a person and go through the interview process before you find out about something like this. They're just trying to get a little bit of empathy from you. The second thing is to avoid things like feigned surprise, like, “Oh my goodness, I can't believe you have a record,” or “I never would have guessed that you would have a background.” Things like that, they start to split somebody's identity and make them feel like again, we talk about this good and bad binary and that's going to really cause them a lot of stress and anxiety. You want to avoid things like that. And then the last thing to do is just to continue to treat them the exact same way that you did before you knew. If you can do those things, that person is going to feel safe and they're going to have a great experience working with you. JOHN: Great. That's super handy. I imagine that there's some people out there having that question like, “Oh I've never been in that situation, but what's the best way to handle that?” So it's definitely good to know. LAURIE: Totally outside the episode, but Mandy Moore just released a screenshot of a place that wanted to interview her about her entire career and she said she wouldn't talk about the abuse allegations against her ex-husband and they canceled the interview and they said it would be essential to the story. She said, “If you only want me for my trauma, when I have a 20-to-30-year long career, then I have no interest in having this conversation,” and how upsetting that was. It’s like one person is not their worst – I mean, not even a mistake. Like, one person is not their association with another person's bad actions. KURT: Yeah. That actually brings up a really interesting topic, too, which is people trying to take advantage. When you talk about lifting others up, I often find myself in situations where people are just blatantly trying to take advantage of me and my willingness to help folks. That happens all the time. JACOB: How so? KURT: Just a lot of things like, private companies will want me to do webinars or talks on things about breaking into tech and just different topics, or ask me for access to my network or do I know formerly incarcerated folks who might be interested in contract work? I can tell that they're asking because they feel like they could get them for a cheaper price. You know what I mean? They're not going to have to pay them as much and it's like a lot of shady business practices and stuff like that. I get that on the regular. It's pretty frustrating. LAURIE: Oh my gosh. It's Women in Tech in a different outfit. [chuckles] KURT: Yeah. LAURIE: It feels the same hearing you explain it. I'm like, yup, yup, yup, yup. KURT: Yeah. It's been an interesting side effect of this. JOHN: Yeah. That reminds me of we had Veni Kunche on the show a while back talking about the diversified tech system platform that she's built and how people paid to post jobs to her audience. But she does a lot of work to vet those companies to make sure that they're not going to just come in the door and be kicked out again in eight months because there's no support for actually having those sorts of people joining the team. So it's such an important trust relationship there with the community you represent, especially because most of them need to be somewhat on the DL as being part of that community. It's like, if you're a Black woman, it's no surprise that you're a part of that community, but it's still so important for you as someone, who's much more public and representing them, that you have to be so careful about who you're connecting to. KURT: This has been one of the biggest holdups for me starting this nonprofit and providing training is there's a lot of issues with exposing people through this. So it's like the end goal would be for them to leave and be able to seek training, or employment, but the real problem comes afterwards when you are trying to help them seek employment or freelance jobs. It's like you have to disassociate your network and attachment with them from that nonprofit. If a lot of people know that I'm doing that nonprofit, then they're going to automatically start to assume everyone who I provide through my network is going to be coming from this program. So there's just like a lot of things. I've been very much trying to figure out how do I prioritize these folks and vulnerable people, in general and I think a lot of that has to do with, I don't know, I'm like why I've been so hesitant to move forward with this? I don't want to start a nonprofit with the best of intentions, but that the impact of that nonprofit ends up being more harmful than good and it's like, who does that really benefit? That's why so far, I've been sticking with this more kind of like one-on-one. I know it doesn't scale well, but that's okay. If I help some people that's better than helping no one, first of all and second of all, helping a few people and having that be really beneficial to them, as opposed to helping a bunch of people and it might end up good for you, or it might end up bad for you and we don't really know, it seems very risky to me. So I think it's why I've been working very slowly at that and really trying to figure out what does that process look like once they're done training because there's still a lot of unknowns there. JOHN: Yeah. It's a conundrum that most training programs and diversity programs don't have to deal with because most of them, they want to highlight the intersections of the people that come through their program because that's part of what they're after and raising the profile there and you have the exact opposite situation, which is how do you smuggle them in before prejudges? KURT: Exactly and so, completely flips the game on its head. I think it was you Laurie, that tweeted if you had your salary, your developer salary and you could do anything, what would you do? I would actually become a prison reform lawyer. I think the real goal is to stop the flow of folks going in. The band-aid is helping folks come out. The real work is stopping folks from going in to begin with, but I can't go back to school for another 8 years to become a lawyer and then move forward with that direction. So that's what I want to talk about. I've been helping sponsor prison reform lawyers and look for ways to get involved with that. I've offered volunteer time to The Marshall Project to help with them and their data collection efforts and stuff like that. Again, taking myself out of the center, the nonprofit I'm very centered in that scenario and I feel like I can have a bigger impact in more areas by just contributing as opposed to being the creator of the thing. So right now, that's kind of where my mind is at while I feel out this nonprofit and see if I can develop something I'm comfortable with, from that. LAURIE: I was just going to say, I was doing that math and you just said 8 years. Does that mean you have your GED? This may not be a thing that I know. KURT: Yeah, I have my GED and no college education. I went to college for a little over a year for graphic design, but could not afford to go anymore, so stopped and then that's like my education. In order to get a law degree, I would first have to get a Bachelor's so I need 4 years of college—I don't know how many of my credits would be transferable from graphic design—and then I would have to go to law school afterwards and then still deal with certain states. If I can even take the test for the bar, or be on the bar being a convicted felon, which in most states you can, but there are still states where you cannot. LAURIE: So the reason I asked and it wasn't to do the math, but it was more, that is another community that you belong to that, I think perhaps in the past had a very different set of opportunities available to them in tech. And as tech has become higher paying and we've done a lot more recruiting from the Stanfords and the MITs and Harvard and Yale and all of those things, it used to be, you could break in – it goes back to the self-taught like, you could break in without any undergrad degree and now that's getting harder and harder and harder and harder. So I'm curious if—obviously, it's hard to decouple those based on your experience because you were formerly incarcerated and you didn't have that formal Bachelor's degree. But have you seen situations in which that has been a different community that you're a part of, or that has impacted the opportunities that you can pursue? KURT: Yeah. I wouldn't be able to separate maybe if I went back and thought about it, but in my mind, every time I've been ghosted has primarily been – well, it stopped me from not applying to a lot of places. That's for sure. It's blocked me from feeling confident enough to even apply and that was definitely in the beginning before I knew the industry and how bad most job application postings are and realize that the requirements they often ask for are way beyond what you actually need to do the job. But I didn't know that. So I would see like needs a Bachelor's degree and I'd be like, “Nope, not applying to that one.” So I guess, I did miss out on a lot of opportunities just from that. But most times, I feel like if it came down to decision and I went through the interview process and they did a background check—I just always assumed it was the background check that I got ghosted. JOHN: Yeah. Usually, if the degree is going to be a factor, it's right at the front of the process. KURT: Early on, yeah. But it could be a deciding factor, especially with entry-level folks. Two people made it through the interview process. They both did really well. It really comes down to what the person who makes that decision cares more about, do they care more about this on paper or some sort of like behavioral give that seems this person would be better to work with. It's like, what do they care about and so, it can definitely have huge effects. This gets into a whole another discussion, but that's just the tech industry and hiring in general is just terrible. LAURIE: Broken! KURT: Beyond broken. Yeah. It's just like you know? [chuckles] The fact that it can come down to whether or not you get a job based on the preference of the person who's looking at the things in front of you is just super problematic. But I definitely feel that I'm sure, there's a lot of cases where people would see one has a degree, the other does not and they're going to go, “Oh, taking the CS grad anytime, because we're about to go write all these algorithms.” LAURIE: Kurt, do you know my favorite story about ridiculous things that should not be a thing? KURT: Oh, I can't wait. LAURIE: So I was interviewed for a job, internal transfer. I got the job. They sent the paperwork to HR and HR said, “Sorry, you can't hire her because she has a Bachelor of Arts and Mathematics, not a Bachelor of Science and Mathematics.” Literally not even joking, this is a real thing that happened. I was halfway through a Master's of Science in Computer Science because I was annoyed by the fact that they cared that I had a Bachelor of Arts and they said, “So because she doesn't have the right degree, she needs to have the right amount of courses that would be equivalent to the degree.” In that case, that was 16 computer science or math specific hard science courses, which is more than the Bachelor's degree was required! So if I had that, I would have had a Bachelor's degree of Science and Computer Science or a Bachelor's degree of Arts and Computer Science, because I went to a liberal arts school and they are not accredited to give Bachelor's of Science regardless of what your major is. So on the scale of ridiculous things that happen in tech, just add that as a fun story to remember. KURT: It's like what goes through their heads? It's like, “Oh, well, we must adhere to this policy because clearly, the policy makes more sense than somebody who has worked here, has a proven track record of doing their job well, has already moved to the other team and everyone is cool with it, but wait a minute, you don't have enough credits.” LAURIE: I got blocked. I didn't get to move. To be fair, it was the federal government so that's sort of how the world works, but still. KURT: Yeah. Still, it shouldn't work like that and it's symptomatic of the ridiculous hiring process that we've developed as a tech industry. It just like, I don't know, I've worked in construction. I've worked in the restaurant industry. I've worked at a lot of other places and none of my interviews have ever felt really like somebody was trying to prove that they knew something I didn't, or like catch me in a gotcha. You know what I mean? This is what I mean by tech interviews are more stressful than even when I was interviewing at all those other jobs combined, because I never felt like I was being interrogated and that's the difference. Honestly, tech interviews feel a lot like when I was actually being interrogated. That should tell you something. It just feels like they're constantly trying to trip you up, trying to get you to say something that disagrees with what you said five minutes ago, prove they know something that you don't. Does all of this sound familiar? LAURIE: I mean, Kurt, if you're a personal brand is that you're kind and you help people and you were formerly incarcerated and you do cool things now, you know that mine is just railing against tech interviews, so. KURT: Yeah. [laughter] LAURIE: This is a known thing. KURT: Well, that's amazing. But it's a very aggressive interview process. It often pits folks against each other as opposed to working with each other. I just have never been a big fan of tech interviews. LAURIE: Terrible for anyone who has ever had anxiety in their life or deals with any kind of PTSD or trauma. Yup. No, it's really – My favorite tweet about this is that Tatiana explained that she felt it was equivalent to – it was an abusive relationship and that it's string you along for seven interviews and then they're like,” Oh, well you don't have the skill that we need,” except you would have known that I didn't have this skill because it was on my resume and it's been in every conversation, but you just put me through all of this just to say no, because you told yourself that it was better for me and you were giving me a chance and all of these things. A lot of people came back and they were like, “That's going to step too far,” and I was like, “You know what? I honestly don't think it is.” It really is that bad and that's horrifying and it's why so many people stay in toxic work environments because the idea of going through a toxic interview process doesn't feel like something they can possibly do. KURT: Yeah, and those folks who are saying it ain't that bad are probably the ones who are normally on the other side of that table, so. [chuckles] JOHN: Yeah. I always find I have to hold my tongue when people are in otherwise, decent situations or even when they're in bad situations, my automatic recommendation is, “Well, start looking for something else,” but I always have to back up from that and not say that because if there's any sort of difference in privilege between us, I can't give that advice because it's such so much more work for them than for me. So I have to be very careful. KURT: Yeah. That's another really awesome point and something that I have worked a lot on over the last 2 years in helping folks, which is contextualizing

Learn from Jacob How to remain connected and plugged into the source while being in the outside, in the world and making a difference

• Are there situations or relationships in your life where you have behaved like Jacob? How have they been shaped by fear, self-reliance, or a need to understand things on your own terms? • How would your approach toward accountability change if you leaned into the transformative promise and faithfulness of God’s vision for you?

Pharaoh asked Jacob: How many are the days of the years of your life? And Jacob answered Pharaoh " The days of the years of my sojourn [on earth] are 130 years Few and hard have Been the days of my life, and they have not attained the life spans of my Fathers during the days of their sojourns" then Jacob blessed Pharaoh and left Pharaoh's presence Genesis 47:1-12. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/lawrence-mwamba/support

00:57 - Eric’s Superpower: The Ability To Explain Things In A Way That Makes Sense To Most People 02:37 - Legacy Capability Of The Web * Web Technologies Are Long Term * Frameworks * Lynx (https://lynx.browser.org) * Y2K 11:30 - Creating Long Term Within Frameworks * Static Can Be Good 15:50 - Ethical Dimensions * RAINN (https://www.rainn.org) * Information Accessible As Widely As Possible * Long Term vs. Short Term Code 20:50 - Longevity Of The Web 23:11 - Edge Cases - Stress Cases * Evan Hensleigh @futuraprime (https://twitter.com/futuraprime) * Design For Real Life (https://abookapart.com/products/design-for-real-life) 25:44 - Make Everything Accessible To The Most People * Diverse Teams Are Stronger * Making Assumptions * Write People Off Explicitly 44:00 - Design For Real Life * Challenging Team Assumptions * The Designated Dissenter * Sarah Parmenter @sazzy (https://twitter.com/sazzy) Reflections: John: The designated dissenter idea. Doing a pre-mortem on a project - planning ahead. Carina: A whole other conversation could come of the philosophy of agile and move fast and break things. Jacob: How the dissenter could be a challenging position to be in. Eric: The dissenter is stress testing, not criticizing. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks! Special Guest: Eric A. Meyer.

01:14 - Mireille’s Superpower: Being just herself. The sense of respect around the individuality of every person. 02:30 - Being Different From Others is a Good Thing * Nature vs. Nurture * Epigenetics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics) 05:59 - Our Brains and Empathy * Mirror Neurons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron) * Dr. Dan Siegel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_J._Siegel) * The Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon/Frequency Illusion 11:15 - The Brain vs. The Mind * Extended Cognition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_cognition) * Sensation and Perception * Survival Rules - Virginia Satir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Satir) 19:22 - Three Brains in One (https://psycheducation.org/brain-tours/3-brains-in-one-brain/) 21:51 - HPA Axis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic%E2%80%93pituitary%E2%80%93adrenal_axis) * Dr. John Briere (http://s1097954.instanturl.net/) 23:06 - Overcoming Unconscious Impulses * Fight or Flight * Collateral Data * Brené Brown (https://brenebrown.com/) * Grounding 26:56 - Affective Prosody (https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Psycholinguistics/Prosody) * Gavin de Becker - The Gift of Fear (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear) * Incongruence 33:26 - Balancing Transparency at Work * Humanity in Tech * Codeswitching * Arianna Huffington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianna_Huffington) * Relationships at Work * Psychological Safety * Shame * Learned Helplessness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness) 48:41 - Effort Over Outcome 56:15 - Using the Word “While” 59:25 - Decoding Your Anger * Using Energy 01:05:28 - “Plays” or Neural Routes 01:09:20 - Correlation vs. Causation Reflections: Rein: Bringing our whole self to work without thinking about punishment or reprisal. Finding psychological safety. Jacob: How he thinks one of the biggest problems in the tech industry is that there is this brick wall around feelings and how feelings and work don’t mix. Rather than a brick wall, what kind of filter can we put in front of our emotional lives that is appropriate for the professional world? Mireille: It really is around being able to see other people as people and when we do that most of the time people are not trying to make our lives more difficult. Check out Mireille’s podcast Brain Science here (https://changelog.com/brainscience). This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks! Special Guest: Dr. Mireille Reece.

In this episode, Jacob and I talk about things like: What it was like to win a national title What family and being a man mean to Jacob How he's been able to stay strong in his faith as a high school student.

01:50 - Getting Sucked into Twitter Vortexes 03:06 - Dynamics of Human Emotion * Willem Larsen Episode (https://www.greaterthancode.com/reinventing-education) * Prometheus Rising (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Rising) 05:36 - Creating Safe Spaces for Emotionally Charged Conversations 07:57 - Radical Inclusion * Shared Conversation About Humanity 09:49 - Overidentification/Over Attachment to Tribalism * Race and Ethnicity are Socially Constructed (yes!) 12:15 - Digital Activism * Retweeting What We Agree With, Not What We Disagree With (How it’s Taken) * Encouraging Good Faith Disagreements 15:22 - Tribal Dynamics 16:45 - People From Oppressed Groups Have the Right to Rage * Being an Advocate * Making Space 24:30 - The Changing Frequencies of People 26:58 - Call-Out Culture * Calling In * Invisibilia (https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510307/invisibilia) * Wanting to See People Make Right/Not Shunning Them 32:20 - We Are All Human! Reflections: Arty: How much our connectivity is an opportunity to see our diversity and the strength and power and creative coolness of one another and if we can come together in shared space, what is the vision we can craft together. Chanté: Synchronicity and thinking about the way things happen. Glad to have this conversation. Jacob: How to make a community of people that can have difficult conversations, certain boundaries need to be respected. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks!

———————————————————————————————————————————————————FCC Vision Statement: Building on Exposition, Centering on Christ, Dying in Community, Serving on Mission——————————————————————————————————————————————————— (NOTE: Allow 30-90 seconds after clicking the START-arrow or Download-button for recording to begin.)The God of Jacob — Pastor Lonnie D. Bell, Jr.Genesis 28:1-22Sermon Series: GenesisJune 9, 2019DEEP SHEET: Sermon Study Questions1. What are some names of God in the Bible that have most impacted you? Why do you think God chooses to be known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?2. How would you describe Isaac’s mindset at the beginning of chapter 28? How should this affect our attitude towards the past?3. What does the image of the ladder communicate to Jacob? How does Christ appropriate this imagery in John 1:51?4. How does this passage increase our understanding of the role of angels in our lives?5. What are the major elements of God’s promise to Jacob? How have we seen these promises play out in the lives of Abraham and Isaac?6. Discuss Jacob’s response. Would you characterize it as one of faith?References: Genesis 16:13; 17:1; 22:14; 26:24; Exodus 3:15; Acts 3:13; Psalm 46:7; 75:9; 81:1; Isaiah 2:3; 2 Samuel 23:1; Genesis 27:33; 17:1; 12:2; 1:28; 24:7; Hebrews 1:14; Jude 24; John 1:51.

Why do God's servants die untimely? How shall we explain their death? Don't they have special care of God. What was the attitude of the first century believers towards the martyrdom of Stephen and Jacob? How should we console ourselves at the untimely death of God's people? Malayalam.

Why do God's servants die untimely? How shall we explain their death? Don't they have special care of God. What was the attitude of the first century believers towards the martyrdom of Stephen and Jacob? How should we console ourselves at the untimely death of God's people? English.

In this episode, we discuss Genesis 32-33. What characterizes the final meeting we see between Esau and Jacob? How does Jacob view that meeting leading up to it? We tackle this and more. Want to join the conversation? Email us at walkingthroughthebook@protonmail.com ! northcolumbuschristians.com gardencitycoc.org

Welcome to episode 92 of the Small Business Show! On today's show, we spend some time getting updated on Shannon's social media business experiment that he started back in June. The goal was to start a new business solely using social media and selling apps on an iPhone. No computer and no website. So, how's it going? Listen in for more detail, but a quick snapshot looks like this: 28,0000+ followers gained since starting mid-June Selling 3-10 designer handbags (the product chosen to experiment with) per day Net is currently $150-500 per day with about 60-90 minutes of time spent each day on the business Significant profit margin increase with new, "upstream" supplier relationships At the point where the business is becoming scalable We also discuss the current "political theatre" as it relates to Small Business, developing an org chart even if your name fills every role and managing supplier relationships. Join us today for these topics and a few more as we work to help your grow your Small Business and expand your Charmed Life!   Chapters/Timestamps: 00:00:00 Small Business Show #92 November 9th, 2016 00:01:00 Political Theater as it relates to Small Business 00:01:56 Jacob: How is Shannon's “Run it from your phone” business going? 00:04:08 Poshmark 00:04:38 Building a business with someone else's leftovers 00:07:52 Develop an org chart even when it's just you 00:10:27 The org chart is your roadmap 00:12:23 Capital and contacts 00:13:49 Follow the cardboard! 00:15:32 Shannon's trick: "I'll take everything you have, as is, and promise no returns." 00:17:29 Find the right sales venues 00:21:12 Free boxes! 00:22:06 Delight your customers, then make them your followers 00:23:33 Shannon's the Small Business Vampire! 00:24:35 Enjoy what you do

  On my way from Auckland to Wellington in May 2015, I took the KiwiRail Scenic Journey's Northern Explorer train south across New Zealand's north island. I got the idea from my grandfather, indirectly, because of his love of trains. He once explained to me that growing up, the train was the biggest event to happen to his small town in the Appalachian mountains each week - it was noisy, powerful, busy, and brought in all the interesting goods from the rest of civilization. For my part, I used to take the train home from college in Minnesota because I didn't have a car. I also had a couple great train journeys with the Boy Scouts for high adventure trips. I like the train better then airplanes because you can get up and walk around and talk to people. I was riding the train in Australia once, and an old man was telling me about his son who died in a war, and he started crying, indicating he had never expressed that to anyone else before. Even though I like talking to people, I'm not a complete extrovert, and on this trip, I wanted to challenge myself. I quickly downloaded an audio recording app on my phone (normally I use a quality recording mic attached to my laptop) and made it my goal to talk to as many people as possible during the 12 hour journey to Wellington. I think I ended up having lengthy conversations with 18 people. This episode has stories and conversations with eight of those people. I ask people about why they like the train, what adventure means to them, and their thoughts about travel and exploration, along with picking up some helpful advice. Enjoy! Departing Auckland Quotes: "A lot of people are riding the train to check it off their bucket list" - Bruce Morgan "I like talking to travelers to find out why they have traveled and where " - Bruce Morgan "We enjoy the open road and getting off the main highways in New Zealand" - Derek and Jane "I have an entire shelf on my bookshelf devoted to atlases" - Derek and Jane "Adventure is doing something you never do in your everyday life, that you might think of as outrageous or stupid" - Calvin Joubert "The train is very smooth and calming" - Calvin Joubert "You have to think carefully about how you will change the world - but we do need more forests" Calvin Joubert "The best advice I ever got was 'hardern up' - from my dad" -Grace Morris What you will learn: -How NZ saved their train service (Derek and Jane) -How to connect with people from different countries (Bruce Morgan) -How to find country pubs to stay in (Nancy McCarthy) -What is a 'batch' vacation home in New Zealand (Derek and Jane) -The difference between high school in the US and college in New Zealand (Calvin, Grace, and Jacob) -How to explore New Zealand (everyone) Wellington Station Bruce Morgan on the left The observation car Derek with Derek and Jane talking maps With Nancy McCarthy and Jean Carron Jacob, Calvin, Grace, and me You might also like these episodes: AOA 068 | Jeremy Moon | Icebreaker: Bringing Merino Wool To The World AOA 058 | Jasper Ribbers | Get Paid For Your Pad On Airbnb AOA 054 | Natalie Sisson | Take Your Business Anywhere With The Suitcase Entrepreneur AOA 055 | Ladan Jiracek | Travel Wisdom From 80 Countries My new course in Bali! Adventures in Entrepreneurship: Want to learn Balinese mud wrestling, climb a volcano, whitewater raft, do yoga, and meditate with a group of high impact entrepreneurs, all while helping each other master leadership skills such as charisma, relationship building, storytelling, and productivity? Then you should apply for my retreat in Bali in September: Adventures in Entrepreneurship!

The book of Amos concludes with the promise to possess the remnant of Edom. The Lord is the one who is supposed to deliver the remnant of Jacob? How can the Lord possess the remnant of Edom, and at the same time plant Israel in the new land of rest? Does this mean that Israel […] The post The Remnant of Edom Preserved? (Amos 9:11-15) appeared first on Covenant United Reformed Church.