Divorce Well

Gabrielle Hartley is a leading divorce attorney, mediator, & author of The Better Apart Method; The Radically Positive Way to Separate (Harper Collins), which combines the healing wisdom of mindfulness, meditation and yoga with practical advice and legal wisdom to get the reader through and beyond the divorce.  Gabrielle maintains a private law, mediation and coaching practice in Northampton, Massachusetts and in New York City where she offers live and online consultation and mediation.  Contact Gabrielle at www.gabriellehartley.com. Find out more about us at www.modernseparations.com

Alyson Jones is a Registered Clinical Counsellor who is passionate about families and children. Through her work as a Parent Coordinator, Mediator, Collaborative Law Divorce Coach and Child Specialist Alyson advocates for the best interests of the children and encourages parents to do divorce better. She assists in conflict management and working towards a healthy resolution for the entire family.  Find out more about Alyson: https://www.alysonjones.ca/ Connect with us at: https://www.modernseparations.com/

Trigger Warning: This episode deals with the upsetting topic of domestic violence. Chrissy Leontios is a multiple award winning family lawyer in Australia specializing in representing survivors of family violence. We have a difficult but important discussion about what it can be like going through the family court system as a survivor of family violence, and some tips for safety planning, choosing a lawyer, and recovery. Find out more about Chrissy at: https://www.cleonlegal.com.au/ Connect with us at: https://www.modernseparations.com/

Una Archer is a psychologist who helps separated parents raise emotionally secure, well-adjusted children. Listen to our interview for her tips on managing differing parenting styles when you are in a co-parenting relationship! Guest Links: Course: https://www.parentingafterseparation.co.uk/workshop Website: https://www.parentingafterseparation.co.uk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unaarcherattachment/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/una_archer/   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters

Legaltech is a promising pathway to increased access to justice. At Modern Separations, we specialize in e-mediation because we have found it to be one of the key contributors to healthy family transitions for separating couples. Watch to find out why! For more information, go to www.modernseparations.com Copyright 2018 Modern Separations Ltd. All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer: The views in this video are not intended as a substitute for legal advice.

Interview with my friend Erin Levine about her innovative platform, Hello Divorce, where you can have your needs assessed and get assistance that is tailored to maximize your benefit, lower your financial exposure, and empower you to embark on a fresh start. Because, as Erin says, if you’ve got to be thrown into the court system just to exit a relationship, might as well make it as simple, easy, high quality, convenient and cost effective as possible.

  Interview with author Nadine Haruni about Freeda the Frog children’s book series, designed to help kids cope with various situations, including divorce and blended families, and to understand that they are not alone, and that families come in all sorts of colors, shapes and sizes. Guest Links: Website: www.freedathefrog.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FreedaTheFrog Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freedathefrog  Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/FreedaTheFrog   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/  

I talk to Dr. Gitu Bhatia about the incredible ways that the Divorce Works app can help you track and regulate your emotions during the very stressful period of separation and divorce. Dr. Bhatia has extensive experience working with individuals, couples and families dealing with a range of relational, psychological and emotional issues. She specializes in working with families going through the difficult transition of divorce and separation. She developed the DivorceWorks app together with another psychologist to increase access to mental health support. With a focus on emotional awareness and regulation, the app assists with coping during this difficult time. DivorceWorks includes features to help parents transition mindfully, to a new and happy reconfiguration of family and self.   >>> Sponsor - Professionals (Re)Boot Camp: The retreat for re-booting yourself and your practice. Join us in November 2018 in the Mayan Riviera (Mexico) for a combination of mindfulness, yoga, business workshops, and time to rest, recharge and explore! Info and registration at: www.modernseparations.com/pros   Guest Links: Website: www.divorceworksmedia.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/divorceworks Instagram: www.instagram.com/divorceworksapp Twitter: www.twitter.com/divorceworksapp   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters

Although out of court resolution is the preferred option whenever possible, there are situations where one needs the power of the Court to make an Order. For those facing a possible court process, Sarah Jacobs explains what it is like to prepare for family court in her jurisdiction of New Jersey. Sarah Jacobs is dedicated to protecting the interests of clients in family law proceedings. Certified by the Supreme Court of New Jersey as a Matrimonial Law Attorney and Qualified as a Family Law Mediator, she possesses nearly 15 years of experience practicing law throughout the State of New Jersey. Sarah’s personal philosophy, and that of the Jacobs Berger team, is to build a family life plan out of family law problems. She and the entire firm see their role as architects of restructured family units who help families transition and establish new roles and responsibilities while minimizing strain. While she works with clients in a cooperative setting, Sarah is also a skilled litigator with the knowledge needed to take even the most complex cases to court. Over the years, Sarah has developed a concentration in litigation involving child custody and relocation issues. Sarah is particularly interested in the utilization of experts, evaluations, parent coordination, mediation and the roles of these “tools” in family law matters. Guest Links: Website: http://www.jacobsberger.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jacobsberger LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/jacobs-berger-llc Twitter: https://twitter.com/jacobsbergerllc Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

If you're considering heading off to family court, listen to this episode and consider first whether you have any better options for resolution. Court should be the last resort! It's often best used in scenarios involving a person with serious mental health or substance abuse issues which make voluntary and reasonable dispute resolution impossible. I talk to Audra Bayer about the experience of family court in Canada. Audra has been practising law in Manitoba since 2000 and British Columbia since 2012 and has built a strong and reputable practice. She is a senior lawyer, and member of the management committee with MacLean Law responsible for HR administration and other responsibilities.  She has demonstrated her commitment to individuals with limited financial resources by providing legal services to clients with Access Pro Bono in Manitoba and British Columbia.  Audra also participated in the University of Manitoba mentorship program. Audra Bayer practices mainly in the area of family law with a focus on the litigation, resolution and mediation of high conflict matters and cases where family violence is a factor. Audra is also a collaborative law practitioner., a mediator and an arbitrator. Audra has been involved with both the Provincial (BC and Manitoba) and National Canadian Bar Association Sections having occupied several Executive Positions over the years. Guest Links: Websites:  http://audrambayerlaw.com/ https://macleanfamilylaw.ca/lawyers/audra-bayer/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/audrambayerlaw/ LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/audrabayer   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Retreats are an excellent way to re-energize, re-focus, create collaborations, foster creativity, plan, dream, and problem solve. Our recent business retreat in Hawaii was extraordinary. We all came back with renewed energy and purpose for our professional practices. There's something absolutely magical and transformative about having extended time with like-minded people in a stunning environment. Check out this round table discussion to hear about our experiences and our takeaways! Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Register for our November 2018 Retreat in Mayan Riviera - Professionals (Re)Boot Camp: www.modernseparations.com/pros   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Guest Links: Aurora Johannson, Mindful Lawyer & Mediator Website: https://www.insidepassagelaw.ca/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mindfuldivorce/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/AuroraJohannson Tara Eisenhard, Divorce Coach Website: https://www.taraeisenhard.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/author.taraeisenhard/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taraeisenhard/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/RelativEvolutns Aly Pain, Conflict Coach Website: https://www.alypain.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlyPain Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alypain/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/AlyPain Juris Vinters, Co-Founder of Modern Separations Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/juris.vinters

Managing finances is challenging at the best of times! Re-building your finances during and after separation is even tougher. Shannon Lee Simmons shares with us about the fantastic framework she's created for thinking about budgeting and making financial decision-making more effective and fun! Shannon is a Certified Financial Planner (CFP), Chartered Investment Manager (CIM), media personality, personal finance expert and founder of the New School of FinanceTM. She is also the author of Worry-Free Money: The Guilt-Free Approach to Managing Your Money and Your Life. Simmons is widely recognized as a trailblazer in the Canadian financial planning industry. She was named one of Canada’s Top 30 Under 30,  the Notable Award for Best In Finance and New School of Finance won the 2016 Wealth Professional Award for Digital Innovation. She is a regular financial expert in the media and has a monthly column for Globe and Mail and is a personal finance columnist for CBC’s On the Money and Metro Morning. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the   DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: http://www.shannonleesimmons.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shannon.simmons.39 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shanleesimmons/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/shanleesimmons   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Arbitration is essentially a private judicial process that is faster than the public court system, and confidential. It has a lot of potential benefits! Today I talk to Herschel Fogelman about what families can expect from a divorce arbitration.   Herschel is a dedicated family lawyer, mediator and arbitrator. His approach is to make every effort to find a negotiated resolution to family disputes, and he brings a calm, balanced and reasoned approach to problem-solving.  Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Email: hfogelman@fogelmanlaw.ca Website: www.fogelmanlaw.ca   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

The dating scene can be a scary place to jump back into after a long time away! Dating coach, Lindsey Liu, shares how you can re-think how you're approaching the entire concept of dating. Lindsey is a divorcee, Certified Life Coach, founder of Soul Confidence, and the author of Divorced, Single and Scared to Mingle. Motivated by her own post-divorce dating struggles, Lindsey developed a framework to give divorced women the tools necessary to feel confident about their ability to date again. Lindsey has been featured on multiple divorce podcasts and has coached hundreds of divorced women through her framework to fun and fulfilling dating lives.     Guest Links:  Website: http://lindseychristinecoaching.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SoulConfidence.co/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soulconfidence.co/   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Are you experiencing anxiety as you move through the different stages of separation? Anxiety is rooted in worries about the past and fears about the future. Stefani Reinold, M.D. helps us understand what anxiety is and how it can be treated. She provides a lot of hope for improvement in functioning and enjoyment of life for people who seek treatment. Stefani Reinold is a psychiatrist, perinatal mental health expert, wife and mother of two. She is host of the new podcast Not the Typical Mom Show, a podcast about the not so typical, but all too common issues of motherhood. She is passionate about helping women escape the stereotypes and abolish mom guilt.  Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: http://www.notthetypicalmom.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/stefanireinoldmd Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stefanireinold   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Do you have concerns about building/improving your credit rating or how you can qualify for a new mortgage upon your separation? Most separating couples do! Kari Gares shares a wealth of financial tips that will be helpful to people who are considering their options. Kari Gares is a Platinum-Award-Winning, Independent Mortgage Specialist, Entrepreneur and Co-Owner of MHC Mortgage House located in Vernon, BC. With more than 14 years of experience and training in the Financial Services Industry, Kari has built a strong reputation as an outstanding Mortgage Specialist, serving the lending needs of real estate professionals, builders, and home-buyers throughout the province and around the world. Kari has been described as “an overachiever”, “someone who sees opportunity where others might not”, and definitely as “the one you want in your corner”. Kari’s breadth of knowledge of the real estate industry, finance industry and mortgage lending enable her to customize a mortgage product that perfectly meets her clients’ needs and goals. In 2007 to present, Kari was recognized with the award of a Platinum Award-Winning Specialist and in 2010 was the recipient of the Guiding Principles Award for excellence in leadership, knowledge, and sales. Her goal is to be successful in business and life in such a way that everyone benefits and grows. Kari’s dedicated and consistent ambition to creating solid investment strategies for her clients and the community has allowed her to be successful and create success for those in her life. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the   DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: www.karigares.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karigares Twitter: https://twitter.com/karigare LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karigares/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Do you have a family business or an otherwise complex financial situation? A neutral financial expert can be extremely helpful for bringing clarity to the financial situation and financial options available to separating couples. Simone is a Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA, CA) and Chartered Business Valuator (CBV). She is a Director in the Transactions group in the Kelowna office of Grant Thornton LLP.  Simone specialize in business valuation and litigation support related to matrimonial and other shareholder disputes. She is the Chair of the Executive of the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group and has been a member of the group since 2008.  Simone also practices in the area of mergers and acquisitions, assisting clients with buying and selling businesses in a variety of different industries. Prior to joining Grant Thornton LLP in Kelowna, Simone worked at Deloitte & Touche LLP in Toronto, as an auditor and business valuator. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: http://www.grantthornton.ca/en/                 https://collaborativefamilylaw.ca/find-professional/name/simone-brunton/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonebrunton LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simone-brunton-1b20643a/ Work Email: Simone.Brunton@ca.gt.com Work Phone: 250-712-6802   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Christina: Today I'm talking to Simone Brunton. Simone is a Chartered Professional Accountant and Chartered Business Valuator at Grant Thornton. She's also the chair of the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group. Simone works with divorcing couples in the capacity of a financial neutral. In this interview, she shares the various ways in which a financial neutral can be helpful during the separation process, including text planning, business valuation, budgeting, and division of assets and debts. You can choose to involve a financial neutral regardless of the type of legal process you're going through, and I personally have found them to be very, very useful. Alright, here we go! Christina: Hi Simone! Welcome! I'm happy to be talking with you today. Simone: Hi! Thanks for having me. Christina: So why don't we get started by having you tell us a little bit about your self and how you got into specializing and work with divorcing couples. Simone: Okay, I'm a Chartered Accountant and Chartered Business Valuator. And I moved to Kelowna almost ten years ago and joined Grant Thornton here. And shortly after that I joined the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group, which is based out of Kelowna. So as a Chartered Business Valuator, one of the areas that we help couples going through divorce or separation with is when a business is involved. We are able to provide an independent, fair market value of the business, which can help the couple when they're looking to divide or separate their assets. This is very important because business valuation is a very complex area. It's difficult to know just by looking at the financial statements, how much the business is worth, and we find it's especially important in matrimonial situations. Because often, one spouse has much more knowledge of the business than the other, who's maybe not involved in the business. And so part of my role is to come up with an independent valuation of the business that is fair to both parties, and then helps them feel comfortable with making that decision and moving forward. Christina: Yeah, that's really great that neutral aspect of your work... So the two of them would hire you together as a trusted person to help them sort out the valuation issue. Are there other types of financial issues that you can also help with during the separation? Simone: Yeah, absolutely! Business valuation's one of them. Financial neutrals can often be involved in tax issues and helping structure things from a tax perspective. Like I mentioned, we often help with just educating both the parties to level playing field. We can also help with the division of assets. So further actually helping them sit down with the spreadsheets and split things out, as well as budgeting and forecasting, and things like that that they might need help with. Christina: OK. And do you only work through the collaborative process or would you also be involved, for example, in a mediated file, or if couples are just negotiating between lawyers but it's not a formal collaborative process? Simone: Yeah, absolutely. We do work in a collaborative process, and we do the same sorts of things outside of the collaborative process as well all the time. Christina: So, a lot of families are concerned about the costs and they're worried about bringing on more professionals than necessary. What was your take on that? And do you find it, involving a financial neutral, can actually expedite things? Simone: Yeah so, our role is to help them get to a resolution quicker. You know, if you don't have a financial neutral involved, you might spend more time arguing with things through your lawyers, and things like that which can really add up on the cost. You know, our report can be expensive to produce but it really helps the couples kinda make the decision and move on with that part of the process. The other way I feel like sometimes to look at it as that, you know, you can have two lawyers charging out at a certain rate versus one financial neutral charging out at a certain rate. So right there it's gonna be a bit more cost-effective. And also, you know, the financial neutral is specifically trained in these types of areas and they're gonna be more efficient in working through it, where as the lawyers, you know this is not their area of expertise. So you're kind of asking them to come up with that stuff and they're not gonna be as efficient getting through it. And the final way where we tend to... for some couples, can make a big difference is the tax structuring that could happen. Can save the couple a lot in taxes which can more than pay for the cost of that work or the cost of the valuation work. Christina: So I just wanted to go back to what you were saying before about working with a couple where maybe, one person has been involved in the business and is maybe more financially sophisticated than the other. And you've got one person who's just really not comfortable or familiar with the finances. In those types of situations, do you work with both people together? But also, how do you bridge that gap? What are the results that you find working with those couples? Simone: Yeah, often I'm having separate discussions with the couples. I just find that they're getting a chance to really be heard in a neutral environment and they're getting a chance to ask any question they want and not feel you know, like it's a dumb question. So generally we're usually dealing separately with them. It also allows the couples to bring up anything that they want to bring to my attention, going through the process as well. It really depends on the complexity of the situation and the person involved, but basically, yeah. We can spend a lot of time going through the valuation report with the one party and getting them more comfortable with it or allowing them to ask questions and get them  more comfortable so that they do really understand what it is they're agreeing to. And I find that that's really, really important and it's important to do it sort of separately.  We might meet with them together as well, but often in that kind of case, there's a lot of individual meetings. Christina: Yeah, and I've personally seen a lot of success with involving a financial neutral in my mediations. I've seen that somebody who was very wary and not comfortable with the opinion of the other party is a regular business accountant. By hiring the financial neutral they really got a sense of ease, and comfort that they are getting an opinion that they could really rely on that was fair and wasn't skewed in favor of the other person. So, I'm really in favor of bringing financial neutrals on whenever possible. What would you suggest the people should know ahead of time that they should get organized or know upfront before getting started? Simone: Before getting started, we're gonna require a lot of information. So maybe you know, doing a bit of gathering that information, whether it's your accountant has it or if you have copies or whatever sort of financial statements, tax returns – that kind of information we're gonna need that to get started. Pretty much you know, we like to kinda take a quick look at that before we get too deep into it because help it can help us scope out the engagement and kind of let the parties know what the cost might be upfront, or at least a quote. And it can also determine what type of report we would need to do, or what type of work we'd need to be done. That's really important to sort of get that information to us off the bat, we'll have a quick look at it and can kind of have a better idea at the scope of what we're looking at, how long it's gonna take, and all those sorts of things. Christina: OK, and what kind of options are there for different levels of reporting? Simone: So there's three levels of reports that a business valuator can provide. So one is a calculation level report, that's sort of the lowest level of report which is kinda like your Notice to Reader financial statement. And then we have the estimate level of report, and then the comprehensive report. Comprehensive reports are usually for very highly litigious high-dollar value situations. So depending on the size of the final amount of money at stake, that's usually where we see those. For most divorcing couples we would normally recommend estimate level reports. That report is able to be used in court if it needs to be. And you know, pretty thorough analysis of the company, what's going on. In the collaborative process because the parties are agreeing to not go to court. Sometimes you can prepare a calculation level report. In specific cases which is the less robust report and a little more cost-effective. But again, only under that process since there is an agreement not to go to court because that type of report is not appropriate for court because less work is done. Christina: OK. If people are trying to figure out whether or not it's a good idea to go ahead and get a business valuation in their case, is there some kind of benchmark that you would use, for example a certain level of revenue or a certain level of profit, I don't... I'm not sure how you look at that, to say yes in your case I think it would be worthwhile to go ahead and get this done? Simone: Well, I would say whenever there's a business involved, you should at least talk to a business valuator. You can't really set it based on the revenue or profit because there's so many different expenses and things that can go through that and impact the value of the business overall. But definitely, if there's a business involved, it's a good idea to get a business valuator involved. Now, you know, we're gonna be upfront at what I was saying before about getting the information upfront and kinda high-level look, so you know, if I get it and it's clear that value's going to be zero, we'll have that discussion upfront with the parties and whether they want us to go through the business valuation, we can definitely scope it out for them. But it's definitely worth at least having us take a look at it. And then other times get involved even there's no business would be there's complex tax structures. But usually those are related to businesses, or there's this really high-dollar value net worth of individuals and again, what we're talking about before if one party's been really involved in the finances, and the other has no involvement, we can help with that education piece as well. Christina: Do you get involved with helping with budgeting at all? Some couples I know, one person is in charge of most of the finances and the other person, unfortunately, may not have an any experience with budgeting or really have a handle on what day to day life costs. So is that something that you help with? Simone: Certainly in the collaborative process, that's part of the financial neutral's role if the couple needs it. So certainly, we can get involved in that and forecasting and things like that. Christina: OK, awesome! So is there anything else that you'd like people to know about who might be wondering whether financial neutral will be helpful in their case? Any advice that you have for them? Simone: Yeah, I think that besides the stuff we've already talked about, you know having a financial neutral, and I think we have sort of touched on this earlier. Really allows for fair settlement for both parties, and I think makes both parties feel more comfortable that they're getting a fair settlement. You know, because you got that independent expert that's providing the answers rather than friends who are biased and not experts on those areas, or lawyers who aren't really experts on those areas either. So I think I can give couples a lot of comfort that they've done the right thing and they know that they're having a fair, independent opinion. Christina: OK, fantastic! And what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they would like to seek out some help? Simone: So probably by phone or email. My phone number's 250-7126802, and my email is simone.brunton@ca.gt.com. And there's probably some information on me also available on the Grant Thornton website, which would be www.grantthornton.ca. Or www.collaborativefamilylaw.ca. Christina: OK great! Lots of options. We'll have all of those links at the show notes as well. Awesome! That was really, really helpful information, Simone. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Simone: Thank you for arranging it. That was great!

  Separation can be overwhelming for both parents and children. Sharla Schofield shares how a child specialist can help parents notice and address the needs of their children to help them thrive during a challenging time. Sharla Schofield has a B.A. in Psychology,  a B.S.W., and an M.Ed. in Counselling.  She is both a Registered Clinical Counsellor and a Registered Clinical Social Worker.  Sharla has worked as a Child and Family Therapist with specialties in trauma and anxiety for over 30 years.  The role of Child Specialist working as a Mental Health Professional in the arena of Family Law called to her 9 years ago.  Since then she has taken numerous training as a Hear the Child Reporter, a Divorce Coach, a Child Specialist and in the field of Mediation.  Her role as a Child Specialist is dear to her heart as a way to work with and support Children of Divorce. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the   DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Work Email: sharlasc@gmail.com Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Achieving emotional closure is often one of the most challenging aspects of a separation or divorce. In this interview, we talk with Sue Cairnie about divorce ceremonies and how they can help couples and families heal and move forward. Sue Cairnie is a Life-Cycle Celebrant and Inter-faith Minister, based in Vernon BC. She works closely with her clients to create personalized ceremonies that acknowledge life’s transitions: birth, coming of age, childbirth, marriage, divorce, coming out, career change, moving, and death. Sue is passionate about the power of divorce ceremonies to create space for healing, forgiveness, and transformation. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: http://www.earthtoskyceremonies.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthtoSkyCeremonies Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/

Most people think that the only way to go through separation is by hiring a family lawyer, going to court and letting the judge decide who gets what. No so! In this interview, Nicole Quallen shares her perspective on respectful, out-of-court resolutions available for separating couples. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website:  https://www.twofamilieslaw.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/twofamilieslaw/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwoFamiliesLaw Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/10651550/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Transcript: Christina: Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Nicole Quallen. Nicole is a mediator and non-traditional family lawyer in Durham, North Carolina. The non-traditional component of her practice is that she has limited herself to entirely out-of-court resolution for her clients. Her law firm is called Two Families Law, and she helps separating couples build two healthy families through negotiated separation agreements, mediation, and collaborative law. I think that you'll find the discussion with Nicole really inspiring. The conversation with Nicole will really provide you a lot of hope, if you're going through separation because she explains the various processes that she has available for clients to help them sort out their issues without going to court. The different processes involve different levels of support, depending on what the clients need. Nicole is a passionate advocate for respectful family resolution. I think you're gonna enjoy this interview. Here we go. Christina: Welcome Nicole! I'm so happy that I have you here with me today. Nicole: Thank you, Christina! And I'm so glad to be talking to you, too. Christina: I'm particularly excited to have you on because you take such a positive approach to the experience of divorce, with your focus on resolution rather than inflammation. And I'm wondering if we can just start out by having you talk a little bit about yourself and what brought you to family law. Nicole: Sure! Well, yeah, family law really found me. I actually didn't even take family law in law school. I but went through a divorce. My second and third year of law school. And found myself after graduation with an offer from a local family law firm that seemed to speak to me. So I went right there  and sort of hit the ground running at a very, what I would call a traditional family law litigation firm here in North Carolina where I was, you know, I think I took a deposition on my third day there. And I stayed there for about two years, and I, say I loved-hated it. I loved the working with families, I loved that it just being in that, that really sacred inner space of family, and I loved the intellectual challenge of it. But I hated feeling emotionally drained. And I ultimately left that practice feeling that I wasn't actually helping these families. That's what I wanted to do, and was trying to do. But I often felt like that the trials that end... that's what most of our families are going through were court cases. And I felt like they were not being served; that they were leaving core really with a lot of trauma that to us, and I felt really conflicted about it and left. And I actually locked the law altogether for about three years. Christina: Oh, wow! Nicole: Yeah, I moved to New York City and started working in the, the non-profit sector. I thought it was sort of my penance. I thought the law is not for me, I'm not meant to be a lawyer, you know. There's something about the law that felt so good, but you just thought 'I just can't do it'. And then slowly, kept creeping back into law and family law in particular. Friends would be going through separation and would ask for my help. And quickly once I started doing that work on my own, I realized I still love family law, I wanna help these families. I just wanna do it in my own way. I know there's gotta be a way. And so, about two years ago is when I started my own practice where I work with families exclusively out of court. Christina: OK, that's fascinating. Well, I can totally relate to the love-hate part of the traditional family law model. My experience was very similar – that I loved working directly with families and having the impact in such an important part of people's lives. But the actual litigation process was so traumatic that I, too left for a different take on the whole process. Why don't we talk a little bit about how you do that out-of-court process now? What are the options for clients? And yeah, what does that look like? Nicole: Yeah, great question. I'm always reading about how you do it too, and I know there are different ways in different states and countries. So in North Carolina, I usually give my clients, when they come to see me at a consult. I boil down that out-of-court process here into three possibilities. One is mediation, which is you know, traditionally what you would think of and where I would serve as a mediator. So I'm trained as a mediator, I would sit down with both of the spouses and be really a guide communication-wise, where I'm trying to help them to have the discussions they need to resolve all of the issues of their marital estate – custody of their children, if they have it, division of all their assets and debts, and then any support payments that need to go from one party to the other. And in mediation in North Carolina actually, I know this is different than what you're able to do Christina. Here, as a mediator, I'm not allowed to draft anything for the parties. So I guide them to the decisions, and then they need to go to a third party attorney and turn that into what here is a separation agreement, which is a fully legally binding private contract, and forcible in court, but you don't have to go there if, you know, as long as everyone abides by the terms you never need to go to court. So that's, that's mediation. Christina: OK, so let me ask you a quick question about that. When they hire the third party attorney and assuming that that attorney still only represents one client, so do they have to go from mediation sort of into the adversarial process to get the draft, negotiate it and complete it? Nicole: Yeah, you're right in that assumption. It's really... I mean mediators, we don't like that process. So yes,  they will go to an attorney and that attorney can only represent one party. In all of the cases that I have done, only one party has ever hired the attorney. And that attorney really works as sort of a scribe, and they are putting into writing what the parties have agreed on. And I think, you know, if you've done a good job in mediation then hopefully everyone agrees by that time. But there's certainly exactly the possibility that, you know, everyone thought they agreed in mediation and then when the attorney drafts it up, that one party says 'Uh-uh'. And then yes, you can be right back into a litigation [inaudible]. What I would tell folks is, if something happens in that draft that doesn't look good to you, come back to mediation and we'll try to resolve it there. Which actually has never happened to me. I think attorneys who do that drafting hopefully, you know, have a good idea of how to translate the sort of summary we give them in mediation to an agreement. Christina: Oh, good. What I sometimes see is that, well I don't see that very often because here I am alone to do the drafting. But what I've seen in the past is that people can take a mediated agreement to one lawyer to draft and then when the other person goes to get independent legal advice. Then you've got the two attorneys on board, who are now sort of inflaming a conflict that didn't seem to really exist before. And they seem to be on board in mediation and then it goes a little bit sideways with the two attorneys on board. Nicole: Exactly. You know, I think that I'm mostly able to avoid that because I have relationships with some attorneys who respect and also participate in the mediation process. So when they get the agreement, they don't really want to inflame. But yes, totally. I mean, that's how just exactly like our experience over here which is that as soon as you got two attorneys – two litigation-minded attorneys – involved no matter how much the parties have come to a resolution, you just... you never know what's gonna get brought up. Christina: And so tell us a little bit about collaborative law. I understand you're quite involved in the collaborative law process. Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So yes, we are talking a little bit about the options and one is mediation. The second one is sort of a negotiated separation agreement, which we'll talk about later. And the third is what is called in our statutes, collaborative law. In North Carolina, we got it in 2003, I think. And a good amount of the states have a collaborative law statute. And so here's the process, it's super cool. In collaborative law, both parties need to hire an attorney who is trained and ideally experienced in collaborative law. And everyone signs a pledge saying, 'We pledge to work through the legal issues of our divorce together. We pledge not to file a lawsuit and to go to court. We are honest and we're gonna disclose, you know, all of our finances, you know like what you do in court. And then everyone meets in... we come four-way conferences, but you meet in these conferences, or both attorneys and both parties get in the same room. And you talk through issue by issue and we do it in a way where the goal is not for each party to get sort of, you know, the best they can get, the most money. But with an eye towards having two successful individuals and successful children going forward to a workable fair agreement. So the hallmarks of that are that you sign this pledge saying you're not gonna go to court, which doesn't mean you can't. If the process fails, the parties can go to court, the attorneys cannot. So when the attorney signs that pledge, that's it. And the parties, they can go to court, they'd need new attorneys. Yes, so that's the basis of the process. And the other hallmark of the process is that you can hire what we call financial neutrals or child specialist neutrals, to come and join the process. You know, traditionally in litigation, you hire, each side may hire a child psychologist to come and testify about what's in the best interest of the child, and you know, why one parent is miserable and one is wonderful, or what not. And in collaborative, both parties would agree to use one – either child specialist or financial specialist. We use those when folks have you know, complicated finances, businesses, you know tons of real estate properties, or something like that. We have these awesome financial specialists who are trained in collaborative divorce, who can come in and give really good advice about how to make smart financial decisions. Christina: Yeah, I think that's a real benefit to have the parties choose one professional who they trust. And then you use that as a basis for the discussion of how to make their decisions. Nicole: It makes all the difference. If you think about it with, I mean, I'm sure in litigation you saw dueling child specialists. And if you have one doctor saying, 'Mom is a great parent and Dad is, you know, really damaging this child,' and the other '...and Dad has one of the opposite.' It's like... very difficult to get past that. You know. Christina: Yeah, so one of the benefits that I saw when I was practicing collaborative law was that it gave both people the comfort of still having somebody sort of on their side, even though it is meant to be a team approach. So that's one of the benefits that I see of collaborative law over mediation that some people really like to feel like they've got somebody looking out for their interests and protecting them. What would you say are some of the other benefits of the process? Nicole: Yeah, that's great. Everyone has an [inaudible]. So the benefits... the first benefit that always comes to mind in collaborative law versus, you know, sort of court is that you are avoiding the trauma of a trial. The benefits of having the third party neutrals there. The biggest benefit I think about is that lots of other types of divorce settlements can leave you feeling 'OK, you are satisfied in the moment', and then long term, they might break down or you might start to question 'Did I get a good deal?', 'Did I make a bad deal?'. And I think collaborative is the most protective process where people who leave that process when you have sat in on these sessions, you know, and we do four, five, six sessions. I think everyone leaves feeling like 'I put it all out there. I listened to everything, you know, my spouse had to say. I really understand what we came to'. I think there, you know, agreements that people feel really invested in and are much less likely to breakdown over time. So I think that's an emotional benefit you get. And then depending on how you do it, collaborative divorce is almost always cheaper than going to court. Christina: Would you say that's because it generally resolves faster? Nicole: Well, I think... I think collaborative divorce for me any way tugs in more expenses than mediation. But I think discovery in a traditional trial where both parties are, you know, requesting just scads of documents and hiring a private investigator – that process. What I saw in my practice is that that process alone costs 10, 20 plus thousands of dollars. Because you're preparing for everything that could go wrong and you're leaving no stone unturned, versus in collaborative divorce, we send our clients a list and say, 'OK...' you know I have my clients put things on drop boxes and say, 'OK. This is what you need. You need to turn a roll on these documents...' and they upload them themselves. So that's, you know, virtually a free process. And then yes, again I would say they resolve more quickly than the full negotiation process of a trial, you know, from start to finish. And those in North Carolina take, probably an average of a year – often more. Christina: Hmm, it's pretty similar here. (…) Are you able to able to get involved with families at  different stages of separation? Do you ever have clients come to you for collaborative law who, maybe started in litigation and then they decide what's not the route for them? Nicole: Yeah, interesting. I'd love to hear your answer on this too. So, I think it's the very best if you can go collaborative first, because like we talked about where you meet with a litigator and they start to scare you. It's hard to undo that fear, I think? I've done a bunch of consults with folks who are in the litigation process; they're really unhappy. They come to me and they want to try collaborative. But I find it those folks who have trouble getting their spouse on board. So I think it's hard to go back from the path of litigation. I've done it a couple of times where... I guess in one case, one of the parties lost their attorney so they  were willing to try. So the answer is I think it's far better to do at the beginning and I... I'm willing to work with people in any part of the process. I just find it's hard to get them out of the litigation track once they're there. Christina: Yeah, that's interesting. So when I was practicing law for the collaborative files that I did, they were for clients who came in pretty much the beginning of their separation and made a conscious choice that's how they wanted to handle the whole transition. I don't think I had any people come in after they have started litigation. And I think you're right that you can't go back from that. Litigation really brings out the worst in people, right? Like you said about getting an expert to say the other party is just a terrible parent and traumatizing the child and... I mean, sometimes sure, that does happen and maybe true but for the most part, the adversarial process of trying to put your own case forward and trying to destroy the other person's case – particularly when they're parents. It's something that people have difficulty having just real conversations with each other after that. Nicole: Yeah, totally. And you can totally see why, I mean, it would be very difficult attacking someone's parenting is so personal. Yeah. So that's why yeah, I totally agree. Anybody I hear who even has a whisper of divorce I say, 'Let me give you a free consult please! Please talk to me before you talk to a litigator.' Because even... and you know, litigators are doing their best in their doing, and pour into work and that I don't think that they're all awful by any means. But it's just a different process, like you said it's completely adversarial. And once you start it, it's really hard to go back. Christina: Right, I mean, the adversarial process was designed in a way that it's appropriate for people who never have to deal with each other again. So if you've got a car accident, and you're suing the person who hit you, or like a medical malpractice suit or something like that, where there's no need to protect the relationship. It's a great process, I get the information out there, and helps the judge get to the truth. But it is so inappropriate for family situations, particularly parents who will have to deal with each other for the rest of their lives. Nicole: Yeah. Completely agree. Christina: Do you have any advice for somebody who is looking at their options, how they can present the option of collaborative law to their spouse? Nicole: Yeah, I love that question. So I do this all the time, you know. I meet at a consult with only one of the spouses, and I do consults with both spouses too, plenty. But if I'm meeting with one spouse and they say, 'Well, I really want this but I'm not sure. My spouse is going to.' What I say to folks is 'OK, so the two main motivations to try to do something like collaborative mediation, separation agreement... the core of why I do this work is, you know, we want to preserve our co-parenting relationship, we don't wanna go through the trauma of court. All those sort of emotional and human factors. And then I say, 'And if that doesn't speak to your spouse, maybe because they're feeling afraid, vulnerable, you know plenty of good reasons that we could talk to if we got to a consultation. You know, and then I say that speaks to almost everybody is money. And I say, 'Tell your spouse that the average, you know, full custody and equitable distribution trial in North Carolina, the average trial cost is $37,000. Tell them that, tell them that they'll need you know, $2,000 a team or to hire an attorney. Tell them that I'll give you a free consultation and that most of my clients are out the door and under $3,000 and see if maybe they're willing to try it.' And one of those two methods seems to be pretty persuasive. And I also tell people that we just talk about which is don't wait. As soon as you feel comfortable having that talk, before your spouse goes to see a litigator, try to have the conversation. So... Christina: I think time is of the essence for sure. OK, so why don't you tell me about your negotiation process? Nicole: OK, so we talked about mediation and then the collaborative divorce. And actually, the bulk of my process is this third sort of funky process that I do that's the most popular and I think it's actually honestly workaround because I can't be like you do where I'm meeting with both parties and mediating the discussion and then drafting for them. And so what I'm doing with a lot of my clients is  I'm representing one of the parties, working with them to draft a separation agreement that covers all of their issues just like any other due process is. And then the other party sort of receives that agreement reviews it, maybe hires an attorney to review it. Maybe not. And then sign. And you know, there's something not ideal about that process because I can only represent one party. And I wish I could do what you did where I, you know, really work with both parties. And sometimes the other party will sit in on meetings and I have to make it, you know, very clear that I can represent them, and that I can advise them. But that they are, they are too sitting on it. And then I tell folks, 'OK, if the other party is gonna hire an attorney to review or to participate in this process, I really recommend that you work with another attorney who is collaboratively-trained, like I am, to avoid like we talked about inflaming and this sort of bringing up financial issues that might cost more on legal fees and whatever benefit a party. So that's actually the bulk of my process. And it's  a little, like I said... It's a little structurally funky, but it works for tons of people who come to my office, and they say 'We're separating.... We agree on you know, 70% of our issues... We need some help making them legal... We need some help thinking about things we might have missed. But you know, we definitely don't wanna go to court and we don't wanna start a big fight. So that's how a lot of those cases get wrapped up and it winds it being much more cost-effective to them. So I think they just don't need all of the support that the collaborative process provides because they really do agree in most issues. Christina: So, what is exciting in your business right now? Is there anything that you'd like to share that you think will be helpful for people? Nicole: Yeah. Man, I think this work is so exciting all the time! Something I'm sort of currently passionate about myself and the other collaborative practitioners in my community is that we want more attorneys to do this work. And I think that the client base is out there. I talk to litigators who I think is skeptical of that. But I have been doing this for less that two years. And I have just got clients after clients saying, 'I didn't know this was an option, I'm so glad you have this...' And in my one city of 250,000 people, there are two of us who practice collaborative law full time. And the other one, my mentor, is retiring. So I'm desperate to get more attorneys doing this work. I think collaborative attorneys... I think we have a lot less stress and some more job satisfaction; I think my clients are amazing. So, something I'm excited about is just spreading the word within the bar and trying to talk about how we can you know, just make collaborative divorce be a bigger portion of what's going on in family law. Christina: Hmm, there's the traditional view is that... Well, family law is just difficult and you'll eventually burn out. But I agree it's really great to be able to share the different methodologies where you can actually enjoy your work and feel like you're doing good and still be working with a professional. Nicole: Yeah, totally. I mean, I know you're a believer and you're leading the call here. But to me it just seems like night and day, as far as quality of life. So, yeah. And right in the different methodologies, actually I love doing all the continuing education that I do as a collaborative lawyer you know, just learning about conflict and psychology and human needs, and how people function rather than learning about you know, how to wire tap your access... cellphone to trying to like catch her doing whatever. That's just... it makes me happier and you know, better. Christina: Wiretapping is not your cup of tea! Nicole: Yeah, right! It just... It just doesn't quite feel like what I always wanted to do to make the world close. Christina: Oh, that's awesome. So what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they'd like to find out more? Nicole: Yeah so, my  practice is called Two Families Law, and my website is spelled out twofamilieslaw.com. I have a pretty active Facebook and Twitter page where I share ideas about collaborative law, conflict resolution, some of the reasons I do this work and stories from, like our community of collaborative professionals. So those are just great ways to follow about collaborative divorce. And then all my personal contact information is on my website and I'm just always too over-the-moon-happy to talk to anybody about the practice or why someone should either do this work or should try out the collaborative divorce. Christina: Oh that's fantastic! Well I think the people in your state are very lucky that you decided to come back to family law. Nicole: Thank you Christina! Christina: So thank you for being here today! You've shared lots of great information, and good luck with the building of the collaborative community! Nicole: Thanks, Christina! Hopefully, we talk again soon in lots of different ways.

Is a battle with lawyers the best way to resolve the details of your separation? Absolutely not! The adversarial system pits spouses against each other, leaving them and the kids stressed out with a giant legal bill and a deteriorated ability to communicate. In this episode, Christina Vinters discusses what mediation is and how it helps separating couples resolve conflicts in a way that is respectful, efficient, and designed to meet the needs of each family. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Download a complimentary copy of Pathways to Amicable Divorce. Transcript: Christina: Hello! So today we're doing something a little bit fun and I'm having the tables turned on me today. Up until now, I've been focusing on talking to people about different ways of helping you through the separation and divorce process, but today we're gonna be talking about actual dispute resolution. And so I'm here, with my husband and business partner Juris Vinters.  Juris: Hello! Christina: So Juris is going to be interviewing me today, about mediation. Juris: So maybe we can start with the broader question about what mediation is and other kinds of dispute resolution.  Christina: Okay, so a mediation is a voluntary process and it's a way of helping people resolve disagreements with a help of a neutral professional. Juris: So let's look at a couple of elements of that, so when you say it's a voluntary process does that mean that both people need to agree right off the bat? Or do you have situations where that's a little different, tell me about that. Christina: In most jurisdiction, it is something that both people need to agree to, it's something that they would need to each recognize is in their best interests to try. In some areas there can actually be a court order made that people are required to mediate before proceeding with any court applications, but generally speaking, both people will decide that they would like to mediate. They choose their mediator and then they decide how they'd like to structure the mediation.  Juris: Okay, so tell us about some different ways of structuring that mediation. Christina: Well, first of all, mediation is something that is used quite extensively around the world, and it is the way that a lot of cases are settled even when they have gone through extensive court proceedings. So in those types of cases where there has been a lot of litigation maybe several interim applications, generally the lawyers will recommend that you schedule a one-day mediation before the trial, to try to save the extensive court fees that would be required in a family case. So in that type of case, both participants and their lawyers and a neutral mediator would generally all attend in one location for a day and try to work through all of the issues. It's kind of a marathon, where you hunker down and you work and you try to hammer out all of the details before the end of the day to try to avoid the trial. Juris: Okay, so even in a lot of adversarial cases mediation actually turns out to be the way that disputes are resolved? Christina: Yeah, I mean the percentage is gonna vary by jurisdiction, but it's a very high percentage something like 95% of cases settle without going to trial. So a lot of cases take a long time going through the court process, where there's preparation for court and interim applications but the actual final trial, where a judge makes a final decision on all of the issues for example parenting, or property division that may not ever need to occur.  So getting back to the different possible structures for mediation, another structure rather than that day long marathon I was just talking about, is to do several shorter meetings. I like to do one meeting a week for one to two hours at a time. In that way, people feel the momentum of the progress their making. I'll talk more about this format a little bit later when we get into more detail about my practice.  Another option which is not one that I recommend very often, but it is a possibility and maybe a good choice in some rare circumstances is shuttle mediation. And that is where the mediator would go back and forth between the two parties. This can be helpful if tension is so incredibly high that people just absolutely can't talk to each other. It's also a possible solution in cases where there's a restraining order and they're not actually allowed to have direct communication.  Juris: Alright Christina, so why don't you tell us a little bit about your story, how did you go from practicing family law in a big firm to doing a mediation, having your own mediation only practice? Christina: Yeah, so I practiced exclusively in the area of family law for several years. Initially, I really enjoyed it, I enjoyed that direct contact with clients and helping them through what for most people is a really difficult part of their life. But over time I became really disillusioned with the traditional court process and I found that it was just costing my clients too much money, taking way too long, and the stress of the adversarial process where spouses are pit against each other's adversaries, just made communication more difficult, co-parenting more difficult and I decided I really wanted to do things differently. So I looked at all of the different ways that I could potentially help families, and I decided that from my perspective mediation is the most effective and that's where I wanted to focus my time and energy.  Juris: So tell us how writing your first book played into that decision for you. Christina: Okay, so I wrote Pathways to Amicable Divorce: Directions for the beginning of separation at the beginning of 2016. Initially, that was a bit of a marketing exercise, I wanted to write a book to help people know what I'm all about. And so I was still working at a big firm as a family lawyer at that time. But it was through the writing of that book that I really clarified my own thoughts and principles, to such an extent that I felt that I could not continue in good faith working in the adversarial process anymore. So it really spurred me on to think about how can we create a business that will work better for families and for me as a professional.  I found it quite frustrating as a family lawyer to have my clients spending so much money and time, and stress going through that period of time. Usually, a lengthy period of time, sometimes a year or two before a trial would happen. And then have the case settle at a mediation. So I wanted to try and reimagine the process and given that mediation was so successful in so many instances, I wanted to try and find a way that my clients could have that benefit without all of the expense and stress of the court preparation. And so that is how I decided to create the business model that we have now, which encourages people to try mediation right off the bat before they've ever started any kind of court proceeding.  So the way that I work with people is when they've decided to separate, the earlier the better they can contact us and then we work with them directly, generally, they will attend meetings without lawyers. A lot of people do consult lawyers in between meetings to get feedback on particular issues where there may be disagreements but it's a very directive focused process where we usually meet once per week. And those meetings can be, sometimes they're in person, but they're often by phone, or skype or zoom. By meeting once a week we keep the process moving forward, and most of our clients end up being done with a written agreement before the end of a month.  Juris: Wow, and so how does that compare to the traditional process in terms of time? Christina: Well in the traditional process where mediation is done as a last-ditch attempt before trial it can be a year or two before people try mediation. And that would generally tens of thousands of dollars of legal fees in the meantime. Juris: What kind of people are best suited to mediation, and are there people for whom mediation is not really appropriate? Christina: Well mediation is flexible that it is appropriate for most people. And it's a very low-risk strategy so there's no harm in trying it, you might lose a few weeks of time but that's about it. I've had clients who had already talked about a number of the issues and were pretty much on the same page but needed help just hammering out some final details. So that obviously works really well. But on the other end of the spectrum, I've also had clients who were not willing to speak to each other, couldn't look at each other in the eye. But with the presence of a neutral person, they were able to reach an agreement also in the same span of just a few meetings.  There are cases where there might be a very skewed power dynamic, for example, if somebody has been in an abusive situation for quite a long time and they just cannot stand up for their own rights and what they believe is fair then it may not be appropriate. But even then if they can attend with their lawyer or another support person, then even for them it may work. Juris: So what about people who say, okay my partner is really great at verbal sparring and I'm just not built that way and isn't mediation going to kind of tilt the playing field in that person's favor. How can I make sure that it's a reasonable and equitable process for me? Christina: That's not uncommon. I suppose the thing that helps set someone's mind at ease is the mediator is not a judge. So the people are not trying to convince the mediator of anything, they're not trying to bring the... well they might be trying to but it's not the mediator's job to decide who has a better argument. It's the mediator's job to find some common ground to give general legal information about the issues that are being discussed, a range of possible options and what the court may order in that type of case and to try to help them brainstorm about creative solutions. It's also the mediator's job to make sure that both people are feeling comfortable and that the process is working for them, so, for example, some people may think really fast on their feet and they're comfortable coming up with proposals on the spot, while the other person may need to really think things over and needs some time to digest so in that type of case it might be a good idea to have that person who's comfortable in the room creative proposal and then have the other person consider that in time for the next meeting to be able to come up with a response at that time. Juris: I see so it's your job as a mediator to make sure that the process proceeds in a way that both people's cognitive styles or decision-making styles are taken into account, both people are comfortable?  Christina: Yeah, I mean that's certainly the process that I follow, I can't speak for all mediators but in general that should be the principle, is that it's meeting both people's needs.  Juris: Okay, now what about a situation where one person is very much open to mediation and the other person might  be hesitant or you know might have a feeling "oh I wanna take this in front of a judge, because I'm right and the other person's wrong and what is mediation gonna do for me?" Do you ever come across those kinds of situations? Christina: Yeah, so sometimes people will have pre-conceived notions about you know maybe if it's a woman mediator she's gonna favor the wife or maybe there's just a general mistrust about professionals. The key is for both people to be in a place where they recognize that it's their own best interest to try to come up within agreement. So, sometimes with somebody like that, who's very resistant they may end up in the court system for a period of time and then they may get to a place where they've spend too much money on lawyers and too much time has passed without resolution before they get to a place where they're ready to think about mediation. But there are lots of resources that you can share in terms of trying to educate. I would encourage if you're a spouse and you would like to mediate and your spouse is reluctant, try to provide some educational resources so that they know what mediation is and they're not just making assumptions about that. So, for example, we have my book on our website, which is a free download, you don't need to give us your email or anything. And that's a book I wrote called Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and one of the components of the book looks at is what are different types of Dispute Resolution Mechanisms, so there is this section in there on what mediation is all about. Juris: Okay, that's helpful. Christina: Yeah and you can get that at modernseparations.com/separation Juris: Let's talk about the end of the mediation process, so what is the result and what kind of paperwork do you come up with and how is that used? Christina: Okay, so we're in British Columbia and here a mediator, a lawyer-mediator is allowed to draft a final separation agreement. And that's what I prepare for our clients, we go through all of the issues relating to their separations, which depending on their situation may include parenting arrangements, division of property and debt, and various details around support. So all of that is documented in a final agreement, and then as long as it is signed properly, it will be a binding legal agreement. Now if there are any issues with somebody not abiding by the agreement, it can be filed with the court for enforcement.  Juris: I see so you don't need to take an agreement to the court just as a general rule once it's been signed.  Christina: No, it's like any other contract so, for example, like if you sign an agreement with a new cell phone provider that's a legal agreement and it's not filed with the court so it's just like that. Now in other jurisdictions for example in some states, it is required that you take your mediated agreement and present it to the court, in order to have that be a final resolution, so you would just need to check in your jurisdiction what the requirements are. Juris: Maybe you could tell me about the benefits of mediation. Christina: Mediation allows couples to come up with creative solutions that are particularly suited to their own family and circumstances. They're gonna be in the best position to know their own family and their needs as well as their history, so they're able to craft an agreement with all of the nuances to ensure that it's fair and appropriate for them and something that they will be able to live with going forward. Generally, when people do craft their own agreement when they've had a hand in creating it and agreeing to the terms they're gonna be more likely to abide by the agreement rather than having terms imposed on them by a judge. Often court orders are followed up by appeals or applications to vary the order for this reason or that reason. Whereas agreements that couples enter into tend to be more durable. Juris: I see so it also helps couples communicate going forward? Would that be fair to say? Christina: Well the process does help them start to create a new model for their communication. So they're moving from being in an intimate relationship of spouses to being separated individuals and often we're talking about co-parents. So they're no longer intimate partners but they may be co-parents. And in that situation of course, it's really crucial that they'd be able to communicate well. So the mediation is a guided process which helps them learn how to communicate effectively and respectfully in their new roles. And a lot of agreements do include terms regarding how communication will occur in the future so we look at what their preferences are - whether they prefer phone or text or email and how often communication can occur we can get into a lot of detail around that to make sure that it's appropriate for them. Juris: So tell us about the benefits of mediation for families with children. Christina: Yeah, I think it's huge. Studies have shown that it's a conflict through the separation and divorce that really harm kids, not the actual separation itself. So everything that we can do to de-escalate conflict and help parents communicate better is going to help their children develop in a healthy way, and not have long-lasting issues resulting out of the trauma that occurs when they're exposed to conflict. So mediation helps parents communicate better, it starts them off essentially working together on the joint project of coming up with the details of their separation. It models a way that they can communicate better, and it allows them to tailor their agreement for the exact needs of their particular children. Juris: So mediating face-to-face isn't the only option, right? Tell us about e-mediation and different ways of communicating that their benefits. Christina: Yeah, so I do a lot of e-mediation. E-mediation is sometimes referred to as "online dispute resolution" or "distance mediation". Really it just means that we may be communicating by phone, where I set up a teleconference and everybody is talking on the phone. Or it can be video chat like Facetime, Zoom or Skype one of those platforms. What I found is that I think that for couples where there is a lot of tension, it helps reduce that a little bit because it takes out the element of physical proximity. People can participate from the comfort of their own space, it helps a little bit with scheduling because it's easier to attend a meeting when you can attend from wherever you are, in the privacy of your office or your home and you don't have to battle through traffic or actually get to a different location. It makes the scheduling easier which means we progress through the process a little bit quicker. And people just seem a little bit more comfortable in those situations where there is a higher level of tension. Juris: I guess it would help reduce triggers - the visual triggers or those kinds of things that would upset people off potentially. Christina: Yeah, so particularly the phone - so you might think at first that the phone would not be very effective but it's actually the opposite for exactly that reason that you don't have. There are such minute details which can trigger people after relationships, so it might be a very, very slight facial expression, you know, a raised eyebrow, rolling the eyes, body language. So when we take all of that out, it really helps to focus on the issues. The other thing I've noticed is that if we're talking by video chat of phone, people seem to be really focused on the business at hand. The meeting takes less time, and I think that's because when you've made the effort to physically go somewhere, there's kind of this sense that you want to have it be worth your while or be worthy effort. So my in-person meetings will often take a full 2-hours, whereas phone or video chat meetings are usually quite a bit shorter than that. Juris: So you could have clients who are very close to the office who you recommend e-mediation to and that actually works better for them rather than jus even taking a few minutes to come into the office. Christina: Yeah for sure. So either if there is that highly emotional sensitivity in this situation, or for people whose schedules are extremely busy and they have difficulty taking time out of their schedule to go to a different place for an appointment, it can work well. It's also great you know in this day and age where people travel so much for work, you don't necessarily have to stop the mediation process when someone is out of town, so we will often, for example, have somebody who's local and somebody who's working up north, but we can continue with our schedule with one meeting per week regardless of where they are because all we need them to have is either a phone or an internet connection. Juris: And I guess that applies to smaller communities and more of other remote communities as well, it bridges that geographical divide. Christina: Yeah, so there are lots of smaller towns that are under-serviced, where they may not have a family lawyer, a family mediator, and then on the opposite end of things there in the big cities where legal fees might be $500 or $800 per hour, something crazy like that's out of the reach for most families. So it's a way of accessing service that is appropriate for your family but not necessarily in your geographic area. Juris: Okay, so maybe you can talk a little bit more about that flexibility and mediation for creative and unusual solutions, maybe if you give an example of something like that? Christina: So when we talk about creative solutions, one of the first things that we like to do is to actually talk about what the underlying interests are for people. So interests would be to deeper motivations as opposed to position which would be something like "Well I want to keep the house" or "I want a certain amount of child support". Those are specific positions that people may take but if we'll take the house example, we would want to get into why somebody wants to keep the house - is it they have a personal connection to that particular house, or is it that they want to make sure that they feel safe with the roof over their head and a safe neighborhood, which could potentially be accomplished with a different house. So we'd like to look at that underlying reasons for their stated preferences. One of the classic analogy is that they use in mediation training, for example, is if you have a couple of people who are arguing over an orange, a non-creative solution would be to just cut the orange in half so that they each get half the orange. But with a little bit of discussion, they can discover that one of them wants half the orange because they want to make orange juice, and they want to use the inside of the orange. And the other person wants to make chocolate-covered orange peels, and actually only wants to rind. So by having that discussion in getting into little bit of the details and know why, we find that it actually makes more sense for one person to get all of the rind and the other person to get all of the inside of the orange. And we can use the same type of analysis in family law. So scheduling is one of the most intricate details of a parenting plan. And for some families, the schedule can be quite straightforward, for example, the kids might be with one parent one week, the other parent the other week, that's not very complicated. But we situations where sometimes people do shift work, or one parent works out of town, or you might even have a combination of those types of issues and we need to be really careful in detail about coming up with the schedule that will provide both predictability and flexibility. It's important for people to have a plan they can fall back on if they do end up disagreeing about something and to have it structured enough that they're having to negotiate new details on a weekly basis. Juris: Aha, so we've all heard stories about that couple that goes to court, you know, 8 weeks before every Christmas to get a judge to make a decision on who gets the kids this year. This provides a different kind of model. Christina: So usually we do put in quite a detailed plan around holiday sharing. The ideal agreement should set out a plan that parents will be able to go back to and use for several years. Now kids do grow and change so of course, reviews will be required as their needs change, but for example, with respect to something like Christmas, we wanna try to come up with a plan that they can look at each year and know what they're doing. Juris: Maybe you could give us an example of how your clients have benefitted through the process of mediation, say what they're like when they come in to the process, and how they approach each other by the end of the process. Have you seen dramatic shifts that way? Christina: I have seen some really dramatic shifts. There are of course come couples who come in and they're on surprisingly on good terms to start with and the process goes quite smoothly but there are also couples who come in who are very where the individuals are each very stressed or very anxious about the process. And they might be quite uncomfortable with speaking with each other. Over the course of the meetings and generally, most of our clients require two or three meetings seems to be the average. Over the course of those meetings, I find that people develop a sense of relief so the more details we figure out the better they feel. And by the end of the process when we've determined exactly how they're going to deal with all of the issues, a lot of clients tell me that they feel a big sense of relief. A lot of them are surprised with how quick and easy the process was. Juris: So it's almost like, the fear of creating the agreement is worst than the actual resolution. So as things are resolved then that burden lifts off of people? Christina: Yeah, I think so. Well having so many unknowns about your life causes most people a lot of anxiety. So in a lot of separations, there's gonna be a lot of questions about where am I gonna live? How much money am I gonna have to live on? What's gonna happen with my debts? Are my kids going to be okay? And the more of those questions you can answer the better people feel and the better they feel, the easier it is for them to actually get along and communicate in a respectful productive way. So I do notice that shift where tensions will ease and for example, the co-parenting relationship will often get better once the agreement has been signed because now they're not worried about what the other person may do on a variety of issues. Well I don't  know about healing but in our culture there are so many negative associations with the experience of divorce that most people have heard terrible terrible stories from their friends and their family have experiences that they have had. So they can't help but be fearful about the process and how it may go, even if the two of them have the intention to have an amicable divorce, there's that fear in the back of their mind. So when it does go relatively smoothly and they get through it, there is a sense of relief for a lot of people.  Juris: So what have you enjoyed most in the past couple of years with Modern Separations? Christina: Well, I've really enjoyed helping people get back to functional lives. You know, it was so frustrating for me to see clients with relatively minor issues, having those issues just drag on and on and on because of failures of the system. So, now I get to actually bring resolution and calm to peoples lives on a regular basis and I personally find that really satisfying. It's really nice for me when clients do express a sense of relief at the end of the process, or they tell me "Oh this was so much easier than I expected it to be". It makes me feel good that they can move on. Juris: So tell me a little bit more about this idea of transitions and how you're helping people move through family transitions as a guiding principle in the business. Christina: In our culture these days, people are experiencing often up to two or three significant separations in their lifetime. Divorce and separation is so common, we all know somebody who has been through the experience. We may have close family members who have been for through the experience, so it's not something that is anomalous. And it's something that I think is really important that we find a way to help people deal with in a healthy way. We know it's statistically very common and it's really not something that the default process shouldn't one that routinely traumatizes families. When children are exposed to conflict for any period of time, studies have shown that that can actually have long-term effects on them. So, it's really crucial for our society as a whole that we learn how to deal with separation in a healthy way. Juris: It sounds like you're at the edge of a social movement that's starting to really gain some traction. Christina: A part of what I've been trying to do is provide education to the public about this new way of thinking about divorce. We don't want to go with those old assumptions that divorce has to be a nasty brutal process. There are other ways of handling your divorce, and there are professionals out there who can help you through this in a respectful and healthy way.  Juris: It seems like it takes bravery for both clients and practitioners to go against the kind of the standard model and find new ways of going through these transitions.  Christina: I think because of the assumptions that we have in our culture about divorce, the first instinct that people may have is I need to go get myself a bulldog of a lawyer to protect myself and go after everything that I'm entitled to. So it does take some mindfulness, some broader thinking about your actual goals to make a considered decision about what is actually the best first step. It's definitely good for people to get some legal advice, but they don't necessarily need to be represented by a lawyer that something that's out of their reach of a lot of families to pay for a lawyer to handle your entire case. And frankly it's more efficient if people are comfortable dealing with a mediator on their own. They can move through the issues on a much quicker pace and then, you know, maybe just make one or two appointments with the lawyer as they feel necessary to bout some ideas off them and make sure they're going in the right direction.  Christina: Alright well this has been a lot of fun, thank you for letting me be the interviewee. Juris: Oh thanks! It's been fun. Christina: Yeah, so I think before we end though, just be interesting for me to ask you as a newcomer to this area, this industry, what your perspectives are on mediation. And we should just tell people what your involvement is. Juris: Right, so I'm the point of first contact where people call us and I'll discuss the process and people often have a lot of questions and people need to talk a little bit and understand what we're all about and get comfortable with our way of doing things. I'll often take quite a bit of time talking to people when they first call or talking with both spouses over the course of some time. Occasionally just to make sure that they're comfortable so that they know what the process is like and what to expect. I guess I have a whole new appreciation for what do you and how it affects people because when people first call, often there's this quite a lot of stress and anxiety and they're just looking for some basic answers and a map to how they can get through this. And so a month later or even faster sometimes, they're done and actually ready to move on, which is amazing to see. Christina: Okay, well I think we will wrap this up but was fun and maybe we'll do this again on an another topic.  

The divorce and separation process can cause so much confusion and emotional stress not only to the couples going through divorce but for the kids as well. No matter how old the kids are, they will still have to adjust and adapt as they go through transitions. In this interview, Zoe Olson shares the role of counseling for both kids and adults during the separation process. Zoe Olson, MA, RCC is a Registered Clinical Counselor, wife and mama to two little ones. She works in private practice  in Salmon Arm, BC and believes that families - no matter their shape or size, thrive when supported. At times a family system's changing nature and stress of life require support of a mental health professional and she loves working with clients to feel like they are thriving again. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links Website:  http://www.edenclinicalcounselling.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/edenclinicalcounselling/ Contact Number: 250-463-3760 Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Christina: Hi everyone! Today I'm talking to Zoe Olson. Zoe is a registered clinical counselor. She works in private practice working with families going through transitions such as separation. In our conversation, she talks about warning signs to look out for, for both adults and kids. She dispels some myths about counseling and explains what the process might look like for you. Check out this interview for some of the benefits to both adults and children of getting some counseling during the process of separation. Here we go.  Christina: Welcome, Zoe! Thanks a lot for talking to me today.  Zoe:  Thank you so much for having me!  Christina:  Well, I'm excited to have you share a little bit about yourself, and how you got into working with people experiencing separation.  Zoe:  OK, so I'm a registered clinical counselor, and I work with families and individual people who are going through a number of concerns. But I often end up working with separating couples when one member of the partnership ends up coming to a place of contemplation of having a separation. So this person is experiencing a lot of distress and just not sure of next steps and kind of where to go with the relationship. So it kind of naturally just takes its course and some people end up deciding to have a separation and some don't. But it usually starts with one member of that partnership.  Christina:  OK. And do you also work with children?  Zoe:  I do. Yeah. So I work with children who are about age 10 and up so I definitely work with more youth than middle teeny ones. But I do some parenting support work as well so parents will often come through a separation and say, 'Hey, my child is having a hard time. I'm just noticing some big changes in their life and... so can you support me with that?' And so I would work with the parents in supporting that child to the transition of separating and perhaps going through divorce.  Christina:  Oh, great. Are there any tips that you can share for how parents can think about helping their children with all of those new emotions that are probably coming up for them around the separation?  Zoe:  Yeah, so... I think that biggest guideline for parents is to remember that for your child, no matter how old they are, it's a loss. And families end up finding a new balance after a separation and divorce for sure. But for that child it's a really huge change that they will have to adjust to, and so to be really aware of how you present that change to your child. So just really being appropriate around what's discussed around the children and making sure that any negative comments about the other parent are gonna kept to yourself or to your grown-up support people and really creating space for that child to grieve in any way they need to, whether that's through talking, or for little ones sometimes it comes out in some interesting behaviors that are not as fun. And just really try to create much stability as you can and continuing on with routine as you can.  Christina:  It brings to mind the question of 'Is it ever appropriate to talk to children?' I'm thinking you know, older teenagers, maybe even children in their twenties. Any kind of details about sort of the why behind the separation. I've had some clients come in very distressed that the other parent has shared with a teenager or a young adult some details that you know, of course, didn't provide the whole story. Is that ever a healthy thing?  Zoe:  Oh, that's a good question. I'm just trying to think how best to answer that. Because it's very family dependent. But kind of involving a child in a grown-up issue... you know in psychology we call that parentification. And for a youth... if that youth is still living within the family home or maybe, part-time with one parent and part-time with another parent, then I think it's, in that case, it would likely not be appropriate. And kids and youth and adults to it. Adults have more resources to cope with it. They're just very aligned to both parents regardless of the separation scenario. And so to really just kind of see a teen as a child emotionally rather than someone who's ready to hear all of those details. But I know one thing I hear from parents a lot is 'Well, why wouldn't I? You know they're grown up, they're 17.. or they're 15.' And although they may look like an adult, they still need that guidance from both parents and it really puts kids or youth in a bind of who to align with and who to get support with; and their sense of safety, for their emotional well-being can be impacted by that. And then as far as young adults... yeah there could be cases where that may be appropriate and I always think of scenarios with abuse and stuff. And you know I think I would encourage families to speak to that adult together and see if you can share both sides of the story together and have it be, you know a family conversation rather than a one-parent-versus-the-other.  Christina:  Because that... the parent who feels that it's not appropriate to bring the child into it is in a position of well, 'either I tell my side of the story, or they only have the other side of the story,' so that can be tricky. OK, but stepping back a bit... So what are some of the benefits that you would say somebody going through that really overwhelming experience in separation and trying to figure out you know, not only their emotional details, their legal details – how are they gonna handle parenting arrangements; what are the benefits that you see of, including a counselling piece at that time?  Zoe:  For a parent or you know, one of the adults in a partnership, I see counseling as a really important piece. If the person feels like they're struggling to cope at all in that you know, if you're parenting, it gives you that outlet to be able to express whatever you're going through in a safe place – a confidential space – that's you know, healthy and not to their children. You're not venting anything to the children but it's very separate. And then having that support to cope, and as healthy away as possible. And I think really just getting to that sort of evaluation of 'OK, what's happening to me in this separation?' You know it's not uncommon for people to go through an episode of depression or experience anxiety. You know people who have been through an abusive relationship, there's also some pieces that can be healed through the counseling process with that or people who have a trauma history and really just having support to be able to close that chapter and move forward in some sort of a new way.  Christina:  Are there particular challenges or issues that you see come up fairly frequently?  Zoe:  Yeah. Something that's been coming up... I've been working privately for three years, and kind of working in mental health for the past nine. And a big piece that comes up a lot is parental alienation. So that's sort of you know... when a family system kind of separates and the parents are no longer together and then that's kind of this abusive pattern where one parent tries to align the children against the other parent. Then that's something that comes up quite a bit and it's you know, it's definitely challenging to work with and support people through. But in that case, you know if any of our listeners are feeling like that maybe a part of their separation or divorce story then I think some counseling support through that, that would absolutely be a great idea.  Christina:  And so that can arise from what we were just talking about before, whereas one parent might be sharing details that are really inappropriate and one-sided. And then the child aligns their emotions with them.  Zoe:  Absolutely. Yeah, and it goes you know... it's on a spectrum for sure but it's... I think definitely go to the end of 'Your dad's not safe. He's not... He's crazy. He did this to us. He's not a good person...' And it's really putting those seeds of the other parent is a terrible being into that child and that just really ends up with a child who is confused. Because they thought his person was safe in their life, and it can really interrupt that attachment with the other parent.  Christina:  And cause the stress within the child. Because both mom and dad are part of the child. 'So if mom is bad, maybe I am bad, too.'  Zoe:  Absolutely. Yeah, and kids internalize the messages that they hear around them. They're very egocentric. Their brains are wired to be you know, self-focused and they don't have the ability to see a whole scenario in a really objective way. And so they perceive their environment as a fault of their own. So that's absolutely right. They will often blame themselves for what is happening within the family.  Christina:  OK so if you see the child being one-sided that that's one red flag, are there some other warning signs that people can look out for? Or if they see something happening that that should trigger them to think 'Maybe I should consider counseling?'  Zoe:  So with children, you wanna look for any sort of major behavioral change. It's different kind of, depending on the developmental age. But you know, it you're thinking of a really small child, some maybe a kiddo who's 2 or 3. Maybe they were potty trained and then after the separation process then you notice that they're having lots of pee accidents and the potty training has slipped. So then you know, that's a good little note that maybe your child is struggling with the change a bit. Or sleep disturbances or something that come up quite a bit. For older kids and teens, that could be mood differences. So things like depression, or all of a sudden you know, spending all of their time with peers or shutting out one parent, and maybe not communicating as much. But really just going with your gut and you know, I think every parent knows their kid. And so if you're noticing a big shift in them just really kind of evaluate in that and wondering if counseling could be a good piece for them.  Christina:  Yeah. You just made me think that moodiness with teenagers, that might be easy to slip under the rug and figure, well it's just you now, oh my gosh, the terrible teenage years.  Zoe:  Right. Yeah, and all those hormones and stuff. And you know, I think with teens especially, it's important how those conversations and be really open with them and using your judgment about the details to share. By just saying 'How this has affected you? You know, or a family is taking a different shape, how are you doing with that? Is there anything I can do that will help you through this transition?' And have those conversations with them and involve them as much as you can.  Christina:  Yeah. I think having an open communication is really key. And what about for adults? So a lot of adults may never have considered counseling for themselves. But if they find themselves going through a hard time during a separation, what are some things they should be aware of within their own experience that might be an indicator they should seek out a counselor?  Zoe:  Yeah, good question. A really good kind of frame to go on is your ability to cope day to day. So you know, I often get a call for someone to begin the counseling process when they feel like all of their resources is to cope with life as it is, heavily strapped. So that could mean that you know, you're experiencing some depressive symptoms or anxiety symptoms in grief and loss – it's all a huge change.  But things like no longer sleeping as well, or sleeping too much, a very low mood, appetite changes, just noticing irritability. Yeah, lots of those mood changes or withdrawing from others. Anything that kinda makes you wonder that you're having a hard time coming and going from day to day and keeping up with the expectations of life.  Christina:  OK, and so if somebody decides that they would like to try some counseling, what does that experience actually look like and involve? I know a lot of people don't wanna know the whole going back to what happened in their childhood. So if these types of counseling around a specific issue, what could people expect?  Zoe:  OK. Well, I won't make people lay down on a couch. So that's a bit. And it's really kind of goal-dependent. So I typically will try and be as client-centered as I can, so that means that I'm really you know, being attuned with the client in listening to what their main concerns are and what their goals are. And so if that goal is something like 'I would like to get through this separation without withdrawing from my friends and family', then we're going to look at a direct sort of actions that can be taken to that. If someone comes and says, 'You know, I experienced abuse as a child... I experienced abuse within this partnership and I think that maybe a big part of why this relationship has broken down and I want to heal that', then it would be a more long-term thing and we would just act a bit more. But I think it's important for people to know that you know, for going back into childhood stuff, it's not to dwell on it and it's not to just drudge it all up and have you go home really raw. As with the purpose of creating meaning for today and how it's affected you as a functioning adult. And then kind of healing that moving forward.  Christina:  If there hasn't been anything particularly traumatic, in addition to the dissolution of the family which of course is traumatic in itself. But if you're looking at that type of situation, is there a number of appointments you might recommend that people start with?  Zoe:  Probably you know, at least an intake process where we get a sense of what's happening. And then two to three more sessions after that. And then that type of scenario, we typically look at you know, what are the resources that are supporting you at this current time. So whether that's strength of coping or the other support people that you have in your life like friends and family. So really just creating that support plan, so things continue to go well, mental health-wise for that person. And that's a good point. It doesn't always have to be really long term thing to come to counseling. It can be just you know, an appointment or two, or really dependent on what your needs are.  Christina:  So I'm wondering if you can share some of those resources that you're talking about. And maybe just some general tips for self-care that people can consider implementing.  Zoe:  Within the counseling realm, we use that term resources to mean the inner resources and skills that we have to you know, go through hardship and foster resilience. So those are things like really being in tune with that self-care, where I'm going through a hard time or just day to day to ensure that our mental health stays well. So those are things you know, the simple kind of building blocks, like having enough sleep and eating well and making sure you have exercise, social engagements. You know, make sure you have a friend at work and family support – whether they're in the same community or at large and making sure that you're involved in your work in a healthy way and engaging in some sort of hobby. So kind of a holistic view of all those resources that you can try and engage in to just make sure that you're functioning the best way that you can.  Christina:  All those things that we all know that we should be doing but maybe don't. Make the effort and follow through to actually do all the time.  Zoe:  Yeah, and especially you know, when you're used to be in a partnership or maybe you're parenting and you're you know, you're putting other people's needs ahead of your own all of the time. So people kind of, 'Go through the emotions of caring for others and just go into work.' And then as life charges along and then when these big stressors come up in that sort of strong base for coping is a little bit washy and yeah, so having some counseling support can really get back on that track; can be something that's helpful.  Christina:  Excellent! So Zoe, what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they'd like to find out more?  Zoe:  Yeah, so the best way could be either over the phone. So that's area code 250 463 3760 or email. So and that just depends on what people are most comfortable with. I find that a lot of people... if they haven't been into counseling before, maybe feel quite nervous, so send in an email first. And then we can chat over the phone for 15 to 20 minutes and see if I would be a fit to what they're going through. And just kinda take it from there!  Christina:  OK, perfect! And we will all of that information in the show notes for people to be able to access you. Alright well, thank you again Zoe! I really appreciate you sharing all of your wisdom with us today.  Zoe:  Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure! 

What do you do when you can't decide whether to work on your relationship or create a plan for separation? Charlaine Avery tells us about a specialized form of counseling called discernment counseling designed to help make this exact decision. Charlaine has worked with individuals, couples, and families for more than twenty years; helping them with relationship issues such as communication problems, conflict, grief, affairs, transitions, parenting and step-parenting.  She believes relationships are the foundation of a healthy life and feels honored to share people’s struggles and appreciates their courage as they learn to connect in healthy and loving ways.    Charlaine is the first counselor in BC to be certified in Discernment counseling – a process that assists couples to decide if they want to stay the same, change with identified goals, or end their relationship. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website:  https://www.averycounselling.com/ SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-159369673 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/averycounselling/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CounsellorCA Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlaine-avery-7b318240 Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Christina: Today I'm talking to Charlaine Avery. Charlaine is a counselor with over 20 years of experience in couples' counseling. And she has also obtained training in discernment counseling. She's the first counselor in British Columbia to have this counseling, and this is a process that helps couples decide if they want to keep the relationship the same, work on changing their relationship with specific goals in mind, or whether they would like to end their relationship. Charlaine says that this process can be particularly helpful when couples are not on the same page about what they would like to see for the future of the relationship. She also tells us that research on this process has shown that couples who have gone through this process and decided to eventually separate had a smoother separation as a result of having respectfully gone through the discernment process and decided to end their relationship together. Alright, let's jump into the interview.  Christina: Welcome, Charlaine!  Charlaine: Thank you, Christina!  Christina: I'd love to have you tell us a bit about yourself – introduce the listeners to you and your background and what drew you to working with couples?  Charlaine: OK. Well, I'm 62 years old which means I've been around the block a bit. I've been a counselor for over 23 years. I love working with couples because you can see the changes that are happening. And what I really love about working with couples is when you can see them finally turn toward each other and starting to being really able to hear each other and to talk about those things that have been difficult and to decide if they can really work on this, or whether they really need to call it. It is a very poignant moment when people are able to do that. And then they can make decisions about how are they going to move forward.  Christina: Part of what you do is you help couples decide whether or not they want to put the work into the relationship, or make that big decision of ending it, right?  Charlaine: Yeah. Working with couples can be challenging sometimes because you don't always know if everyone's on the same page and is equally committed to the relationship. And so, I've done couples counseling now for 20 years, and so sometimes you just don't know why it isn't working. I decided to study discernment counseling a few years ago because it really helps the couple to get to this place of saying, “Are we gonna stay the same as we are or are we actually gonna identify what are our issues and what are we gonna work more deeply on? Or are we really done – done that we need to move on?”  Christina: So you studied discernment counseling. What exactly does it involve and how does that training set you apart from a general couple's therapist?  Charlaine: So there was a project down at Minnesota called Marriages on the Brink. And what they found is that it was really important that each party and the couple have an opportunity to be seen individually, to talk about what they were going on. And it was also very important to have three options on the table. We can stay the same as we are, or we can identify our issues and figure out what are we gonna work on in longer term, more intensive counseling, or we can decide if we're going to just call it quits and not be together anymore. How the stuff differs from what many couples' counselor's offer is often you bring two people in your room, you meet with them together so there's this sense of secrecy or you know, 'you know something about me that I don't know that you know about me.' And... But you also don't ever get the chance, unless you meet with them individually to explore those issues. What I like about the discernment counseling is it's very neutral; it is really there to help people decide if there's a piece of the counseling where you meet the couple together, you find out about the history, you find about their hopes and dreams. And you find out about what's not been going on. Another piece of I think is really important is they do ask what about 'what about the children of the marriage, and what is the plan for them,' so that the children's needs don't get forgotten is part of the conversation. It's a fairly intensive process because you commit from session to session – it's a maximum of five sessions. So you really have to get in there and really find out what's going on. You meet with them together and then you meet with them individually and the other partner waits. These individual sections of these sessions are about 20 to 30 minutes. It's really an opportunity to get to know the person, find out their understanding and perceptions, what haven't they been able to say. One of the questions that always has to be explored is 'Is there someone else in your life that's complicating the situation that the two of you are in?' And then from that conversation with them, figuring out whether what of those three options -- do they want to stay the same; is it so painful they need to change it; if it can't be changed, are they really considering not being together anymore.  Christina: So I am curious, have you ever had a couple at the end of five sessions who are still confused about what to do?  Charlaine: That's s often because, I mean if they're confused, it means they're choosing to stay the way they are. Which is OK, right, because it's a neutral approach. Sometimes the couples' counselor would say, 'Well, you know, the counseling isn't working so you shouldn't be together.' And I actually don't believe that. Counselling doesn't work for as many reasons sometimes, and it's really important to allow people the option to say, you know, 'I don't wanna deal with this now.' or 'I don't wanna change now so let's just stay the way we are for now.' And that's OK too, so it makes room for those options. And then there's the same kind of pressure. And also at the end of each session, I ask each member of the couple, 'Are you willing to come back?' If they say no, then we're done. If they say yes, and then we just make another appointment. So I meet with them individually and then I actually get the person with my support to give a report back, kind of a summary about where they at with the other person, whether they're still unclear or if they need a clear choice. And then that the other person just listens, and then they see the other person. Discernment counseling is not couple counseling. So it's really important to understand the difference. We're not actually trying to change the relationship yet – we're actually trying to explore where are you right now. And based on where you are right now, what are your options. So that's quite different in couple's counseling and that can be difficult for couples because they think they're coming in to get fixed. Discernment really can't zip out how do we figure out what needs fixing. And then once we identify what needs fixing, then what are you willing to do to fix it.  Christina: in what sorts of circumstances do you recommend that you found it to be helpful? For people listening and you know, couple of points where they can look at their relationship and say this exists or that exists and maybe discernment counseling would be a good idea for me.  Charlaine: Yeah, so discernment counseling is done when you don't know what to do. It's obviously become too painful for things to stay the same, but there's all kinds of reasons why people don't wanna end their relationships. But there maybe a general unhappiness and they don't know what's possible and they're not sure if their partner will buy into longer-term work. If one of the two is not sure about how committed they are to the relationship, then that's a really good time to come into discernment counseling. I do this... I have this mantra-kind of relationship tune-up maintenance or repair. And so it might just be that you're needing a tune up and that would be... we'd be able to identify that pretty quickly. So for instance, a couple comes in, we talk about things. They decide that they want to go to couples counseling and we can say these are the issues we're gonna work on, we're gonna commit to it long term, then we're done. And then they can move see me as the couple's counselor or I can refer them out to another counselor. So, because they're clear on what they want. It's when people are uncertain, or when the stakes are high. Or when they don't know what the options are. Or when, you know, they just need help talking to their partners about the thing that isn't working for them. So it's kind of an intro, and it really helps to figure out what's people's motivation and trying to get a good sense of what would it take specifically to work on their relationship rather than taking this global kind of view of things. I really like it because it is very respectful of people's beliefs and values. It's really open-ended in terms of the conversation. They do get my support if there's something they do need to say to their partner, then I support them to say that. And so I think it's just really helpful to get on point.  Christina: Now, is this process... I imagine it's open for any couple and intimate relationship, they don't have to be married, do they?  Charlaine: Definitely it would be helpful for anyone who's trying to determine the status of the relationship. If you're not married, of course, there are different legal implications and things like that. But from my perspective, it doesn't make any difference. It's, you know, 'Do I wanna continue with this relationship or don't I?' 'Do I wanna continue, then what needs to be different?' 'Then if I don't wanna continue, then how do I let my partner know and just how do we move forward from that?'  Christina: I don't know if you would have this information, but have you seen any benefits to couples who do eventually decide to separate? I'm wondering if they might have an easier time of going through the separation process after having gone through the discernment process?  Charlaine: That was an interesting piece of the research, was that lawyers actually started referring couples because what they found is, because of these kinds of conversations that are respectful and clearly communicating; that there was less conflict if they did decide they had to separate and move on. There was less conflict because the emotional part of letting go of the relationship was actually being taken care of prior to going to the lawyers, where sometimes it can become quite conflictual. There's no guarantees obviously, but if you two have resolved and you're on the same page about why you're separating, then you don't need to argue about 'are we separating or not?' It's clear that that decision's already been clearly made. The difficulty, of course, is for the person who's being left, it might not be their choice, it might not be their decision. But at least it gives them a place where they can express this to their partner, and their partner can get my support explaining to them why it's not an option to continue. So the lawyers actually find it quite helpful.  Christina: That's what I was imagining. You would say because I do see sometimes when people haven't had the opportunity if they're coming into a mediation and they haven't had really an opportunity for closure or to accept the relationship has ended. Then that can really drag on discussion of the substantive issues that we're trying to talk about. Because there's all these emotional issues that haven't been resolved yet.  Charlaine: And the thing about relationships is that they don't usually go downhill all at once. So it's a small accumulation of many things. And so when the relationship is put in question, you know sometimes people can't be honest about what's going on. But by meeting with them individually, I'm able to help them to say what they need to say to their partner. So I had a couple in here recently and they're good people. And they care about each other, but it's not just giving them what they need in their life. And it was interesting. They couldn't say it to each other but they could say it to me, that they were done. So I supported the first one to go to say that to the partner. And the partner... then I met with the partner then the partner said that “it's such a relief 'cause I'm on the same page.”  Christina: Oh, good.  Charlaine: Right. It's funny how face to face with couples, it's sometimes hard to do that. And you really need, you know, a caring supportive person to help you to say that. And now I'll be helping them to decide what are the next steps on how do we go forward now that we're both on the same page.  Christina: And so how can people work with you? Do you work with clients online?  Charlaine: I have done some discernment counseling by Skype, as long as the couple's comfortable with that. Because you know, you want confidentiality while you're having the conversation with me. And so that it takes a certain amount of trust about whether you know, the other person's actually not listening at the door.  Christina: Oh, I see. Yes.  Charlaine: So the interviewing people individually direct like as a couple I can do that on Skype. You know, because you can just pass the computer back and forth typically. So it's possible. It's always better in person but since I'm the only one in BC who has a certification at this time, it's gonna be hard for them to find someone locally. And so I'm making it available by Skype.  Christina: OK, great! And I think I saw on the discernment counseling website that there is a list of practitioners in Canada and the United States who do this type of work – is it just the two countries or there are discernment counselors in other countries as well?  Charlaine: I'm not sure. They just reopened the training for people who are interested, so maybe people from other parts of the world... they pretty much began in the US in the last five years or so. So it's definitely a growing aspect of the counseling field.  Christina: OK, fantastic! And what are the best ways for listeners to get in touch with you?  Charlaine: I'm available by phone. People can book appointments directly from my website, I have an online booking system. So they can go to my website averycounselling.ca, counseling has two Ls. And you could look at my blogs, 'cause I have blogs on discernment counseling and I also have connection to the discernment website, the developer of this. There's a little video of him talking about what this is about as well. By phone, through the internet, whatever works for the client.  Christina: Perfect! OK, well thank you so much Charlaine for sharing that information about this new branch of counseling. I think this is gonna be really helpful for a lot of people.  Charlaine: Good, well I hope so. And I much certainly found it helpful for the couples that I've worked with.  Christina: Excellent! 

The groundbreaking FAYR co-parenting app is taking off due to the dedicated efforts of its founder Michael Daniels and its senior advisor Gwyneth Paltrow to improve the lives of co-parents and children. The challenges of co-parenting can be overwhelming and can lead to significant conflicts. Michael Daniels came up with the idea of creating an app for co-parents to help them effectively manage their time, their finances, and their co-parenting communication. FAYR is a groundbreaking app that simplifies everyday matters for divorced and separated parents.  As a separated father of two young children, Michael found himself overwhelmed by the legal, financial and emotional costs of divorce on his family. After 20 years in the homebuilding industry, Michael hung up his hard hat to create a tool that would not just improve his family’s life, but would also help the other 55 million divorced co-parents in the US. Despite his success on the Apple tv show "Planet of the Apps" and partnering with Gwyneth Paltrow, Michael's guiding light remains the same: working everyday to be his best self for his kids.  Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: https://www.fayr.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/befayr/ Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/befayr Twitter:https://twitter.com/befayr Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/company/fayr/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/   Christina: Hello and welcome! I'm super excited today to be talking to Michael Daniels. Michael is the founder and CEO of the new Fayr app (spelled F-a-y-r), and it's a groundbreaking app that streamlines key aspect of family management for divorced parents. That includes sharing a parenting temp calendar, tracking shared expenses, recording communication, and more, all in one location. Fayr debuted really in 2017 and drew interests from Apple TV, who invited him to audition for the reality series "Planet of the Apps". Michael was selected for the show and he had huge success, securing a partnership with his now head adviser Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth is well-known as an academy-award winning actress of course, but she's also an active entrepreneur, with a highly successful lifestyle brand goop.com. She's a passionate voice for improving the experience of divorce for families and drew a lot of media criticism a few years ago for her announcement that she and her husband were consciously uncoupling. It's so exciting to see Michael and Gwyneth working ways to make life easier for co-parents, which is going to make a healthy and respectful divorce achievable for more and more families. Check out this interview with Michael to find out all the things that Fayr can do and how it can make your life better. Alright, let's hop in. Christina: Welcome Michael thank you so much for being here with me today! Michael:  Thank you for having me, Christina.  Christina: I'm really excited to talk to you because of the super positive project that you got involved with to help co-parents do a better job. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got inspired to create the Fayr app? Michael: Well, I would say my background can't be any further from this subject, I'm a home builder, I mean, I started building homes when I was a teenager, just an able-bodied worker. Later on, I went to work for the largest homebuilder in America and worked for them 6 years before going out on my own to become a custom home builder. And you know, like everybody else a lot of people go through divorces and it was just a very trying period for me. Family is important for me, I come from a military family and my father was an army officer for 30 years or so and you know traveling around a lot, family was always just important - we're always together. And I would say that that had a lot to do with feeling my interest in trying to do what I could for my kids and so, yeah, that being my background, I think it all really fed into my interest to communicate better, be as much a part of my children's lives and in a positive way. Christina: Well, the fact that you're outside of the standard legal divorce industry gives you a whole new perspective, I think what the industry needs. Michael: I think I relay to people really well, I find that the people I feel most comfortable and most effective in communicating with are just the regular people. I kinda leave it up to my team, they kinda do a better job than communicating with the professionals in this industry. Christina: And so how did you get inspired to create the app? What was the thinking behind that? Michael: What was the ah-ha moment? Christina: Yeah. Michael: Well you know, it's a culmination of a lot of things. You go through like these unexpected things can happen at any point. And so you get divorced, and then as the time goes on, the whole process was just tremendously arduous when you think about the two years it takes before from separation to finally getting through things, you fight over custody stuff, you know, whole bunch of money spent, and this is the measurable process and then when it's done and when you finally sign your parenting agreement, you think everything's gonna be okay but it's not. Emotions pop up, and next end, like you know, 6 more years went by and it's still not at rest. And so you never know when you're gonna be caught with this need to go back to court. And are you documented? Most people lose, not because they're bad parents, but because they're insufficiently documented. And I did, it's not fun to reconcile with laws all the time, and I would have to reconcile these laws every night and just miserable way to live thinking about this stuff constantly and so. Then you go to court and then the other person can very well say, "well you made that up". And there's really no way to prove anything, you know. You can't verify some of this stuff. So I thought to myself, "if there was something that could just galvanize, Google docs, Google calendar, your emails, Google spreadsheet, all of these things that I was happy to use constantly, text messages and everything, have it wrapped up and a one app - specifically like a go-to resource just for co-parents to either co-parent together or just document, just to avoid mitigate future problems. Assuming that was it, it was just a culmination of many years of these things and I just one day started looking into this. I mean, if nothing else, it's gonna help my life and probably help a lot of other people too. Christina: Okay. So I think this sounds like a good place for you to tell us a little bit about what the app does.That sounds pretty cool, the calendar and Google docs and so forth. All of that being rolled into one. What does the app do, and I'm wondering you mentioned that you can either use it together for co-parenting or it sounds like you can just also use it on your own? You don't need the cooperation of the other if you're just looking for documentation? Michael: Yeah absolutely. I mean it's basically an all-in-one digital ledger for child custody. So it's just the place you can go to let's say for example, things that parents run into. Let's face it, and I say this sometimes because I don't think people are very conscious of this, is that there's no other area in life that you can be in a simple lawsuit with another human being and you're forced to continue communicating with that person for years to come, you know. So it's a very stressful situation but the importance of communicating constructively with that person is paramount. And so how do you bridge this problem between the necessity for the benefit of the children (in my case 2 children) that you love the most in life, and then you have this horribly frustrating situation where you don't communicate well  because you were in a very bitter, emotionally, hard suit with this person. Because that what these things are - they're lawsuits. So anyway, I thought, what the app can do for you is let's take the calendar feature for example. It's color-coded so mom stays in one color, dad stays on another color, you put in your time-sharing agreement. And then if you need to switch a day, you can just let your day request just a fourth of the day to the other parent. The other parent instantly gets a notification saying "oh, Bill wants to forth his day to you". You can either accept or deny. If you accept it, it changes to your color, and it doesn't switch back to his color unless you release it again. But that way, if anything doesn't rise, your building this incontestable audit trail of information as life is happening. And that's just the calendar feature. But, it just streamlines things to where it's sending a new notification, it's letting you know when soccer is, you can set it up front where repeat this for the next six months every Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then every other year switch your Christmases, so everything's put in upfront and then it's just laid out for you. No more arguing, no more disputes over this particular issue. And I just wanted to simplify, take out all the arguing that goes on. And then the next feature, let's talk about expenses for example. I mean, people are very good about keeping a mental inventory of their own contributions for their children. But there's seldom real knowledge what the other person is doing. And no one's very good about keeping receipts, and no one's very good about all of the things that we have to juggle. And when your attorney tells you, "Hey, Friday I need all these stuff", it is terrible to have to start digging all that up and reconstruct that audit trail information. I had to call two different banks. my insurance company, doctor's offices, and dentist offices have reprint stuff and just have to dig it up and I'm sure there's still stuff missing. And if you dump it all at your attorney's office and your paralegal, just put it in a court-ready format, you know. That's costed you per hour. So it just all gets very expensive, I mean, I just spent nearly sixty thousand dollars in total on all these legal fees. And you think about what that could have done for what I have for my children. Anyways, the point is with this app, as things are happening I don't have to keep receipts anymore, buy something and I simply snap a picture of the receipt - it's there, it's recorded. Then I plug it all in,  and that's it. She can see it instantly, she can see everything that was purchased. Right now it's four categories and I'm about to expand that. So I called them involuntary expenses, it's either your medical, your dental, your personal or educational. And some of these things are tax-deductible. So the app also know which are tax-deductible, and at the end of the year, you can just say "give me my tax-deductible report", and it'll give you everything you've spent on your kids that you can deduct from your taxes as well. So just organizes everything, you don't have to save any more paper, and that's really beneficial. And again, at a glance now, both parents can see what's happened, and shortly you'll be able to settle up with each other within the app. You can just say, "okay I'm gonna settle up". You click the button and automatically transfers money to the other parent. You can pay child's support alimony, everything's gonna be able to be documented paid right thru the app.  Christina: Oh that will be handy. Michael: Yeah it will be great. And you can set it again. I want to make a co-parenting app that just lets you co-parent on autopilot. So yes you may do some work upfront, plugin all the stuff in. But once it's in, from then on out its just small little adjustments, here and there, as life is going on and you still make adjustments. But for the most part, you're just gonna get these "just go through life and things are gonna be nice and easy". So the next feature is my Geo pen points. The reason I have these is 'cause there are a lot of hidden cases where you're supposed to be somewhere but timely dropoffs or pickups, and there are court orders a lot of times, and to prove that you were there on time is an important thing. So with this feature, you can show up, you can simply say "I want to check in" and you log yourself and there it is - a time, date and stamp that you were on the planet in that spot at that time. So there's just no more he-said-she-said when you go to court. It's just you're good. You know you can prove that you were there. That prevents people from using children as chess pieces. And then the last feature that we currently have is our invisible text messaging. So every lawyer tells you, communicate email, 'cause emails are invisible in court, text messages are not. Well, with these, you have the best of both worlds. You have the ease of text messaging with the invisibility of email. It works just like the IOS messaging, super easy. And at any time you can just say "I wanna generate a report", and all of this stuff, every single day you had them the percentages, everything from whatever time, period you want to look at, just be instantly printed out in a PDF or Excel format. And there you go. Shortly though, right out just the two parents that can be on it, they are onboarded on in the system but shortly you'll be able to have third-party users for this login, to actually grow our user base tremendously. But you can have grandparents who are involved, step-parents, aunts, uncles, legal professionals, they'll have an interface too if they need to monitor just make a guardian light them for example. It's just gonna make everything much more simple, much more honest and fair - that's the name of the app, it's "Fair". It stands for Family, Advocacy, Your Responsibility, just to help make things easier that is in a very difficult situation. Christina: Sounds like it's streamlining a lot, saving a lot of time, and kind of peel back and take away some of the emotion out of the communication? I'm wondering if for example if we go back to the Calendar, and your request to switch a day, is that just very black and white like that or you switch it where you make the request, or do you have the ability for example to say, you know I have to work late next week. Michael: Every single one of these functions  - I know I'm just doing kind of a brief over if you're here, but if you select to switch, it actually requests you know, give a reason. You have to write a reason in so that it's notified "hey I'm working late" and you can put notes down there. So when this is printed off in the main report, it'll show that on Saturday, at 4:36 PM, you requested a fourth of the day, the notification was sent, it was accepted at this time, so the whole record is there for a judge or anybody to look at and they'll know exactly what happened, and the notes will be attached there too. "Oh I've forth of the day because I have to be here or this happens", so the communication is there, let's face it, six months from now I'm not gonna remember why I'm not gonna remember what happened. So, I've definitely thought all of that, I wanted to make this thing just as useful for people and just take out the anxiety that we go through later on. Christina: It sounds like some of these features might tend to actually encourage, better behaviors, so I'm wondering if, by using this app, maybe court applications are actually reduced or eliminated in some cases, what kind of feedback have you received? Michael: I mean I know from my own personal experience that it definitely mitigates problems that usually escalates to costly, you know court motions, and look you know, that's what we all want. I mean, our family courts... you correct me if I'm wrong I know you're more of a guru on this than I am but they're the most backed up courts in America, I mean that's why in some places it's up to three years, backlogs. So, hey if we can reduce problems and keep some money in some families pockets cause you know, it's they're sad statistics you know. I think most people know this what's sad is that you don't go in any sort of parenting tutorials. I don't know if they do this everywhere, but here in Florida, when you go and get divorce they make you take an online little... watch all these videos and take retention quizzes, and things like this that educate you in parenting, it's like "Man I wish I did this before when I became a parent." And then of course in this process just learning more about the effects of these two home situations on children nationally, it's pretty scary. I mean when you look at some of the statistics out there, and I'm not saying the answer is people should stay together cause I'm a firm believer that a lot of people if they're properly communicating it's a better situation for kids, for two people who don't like each other to not stay together. But the statistics actually show that if your kid is being raised in a broken home, they are twice as likely to drop out of high school, they're four times as likely to go to prison, twice as likely to actually attempt suicide. They're medicated for things like depression and anxiety and insecurities. They suffer from speech defects, asthma, and headaches at a higher rate. And I don't know what, I'm sure there's a lot of things that contribute to those statistics but, I think that kids growing up feeling that their parents are butting heads all the time, that can't help but believe that that causes some emotional duress on them. Christina: Oh absolutely, I think a lot of the studies have shown that it is the conflict that occurs in separation, not so much the separation itself, but that exposure to conflict between parents that's really traumatic for kids.  Michael: Totally. Christina: This app, I think has huge potential and you've already had a really exciting launch this summer, tell us a little bit about the Planets of the apps show that you're on. Some of our listeners might not be familiar with that. So what that was all about and what your experience is like there? Michael: That was pretty phenomenal the whole experience honestly, I was.. it was July 4th, 2016 and I was at my cousin's boat. And I'm kicking around this idea of building this app. So I priced it out and you know it was gonna be quite a bit of money, and I'm like "Man do i do that or I'm not... this a lot of things I can do with that kind of money " and he said "You know Mike, it's something that's.." he's like "I've been listening to you for 8 years complain about all the things you go through"  you know he's like.. "I think it's a good place to direct your energy and you gotta be passionate about something in life and you're really passionate about this" so I said, Okay I'm gonna go and pull the trigger. So 2 days later I put my deposit down, I started building it. And fortunately I did, cause if I had waited four days, I would've missed the window to be considered for Planet of the Apps. And it was very fortunate, and I didn't know they started with nearly 10,000 applicants and they narrowed us down to about, I guess about 80 of us that made it. And then of the 80, I mean less of a third of that made it to the final round, that I did. So it was really exciting cause I'm not an app builder, I mean I got out there and I was just overwhelmed by all these crazy smart people, I mean they cruise at that intellectual stratosphere that I can't look at from the ground binoculars, it's super smart people out there. And anyway, it's a good experience, so I go out on Planet of the apps, and we're filming this thing and I was lucky enough to have all four of the panelists there, you know Jessica Alba, Gwyneth Paltrow, Will i.am, and Gary Vaynerchuk, all four of them wanted to partner with me, and I think I was one of the only ones who have that. And super exciting, and again my app that time was just a concept, it was a Beta, it had to be in Beta but it was far from being in the app store. Far.  So I ended up choosing Gwyneth, and I chose Gwyneth because, one she's the only person who'd gone through a divorce, two you know this is a subject she's very passionate about, and you know the whole conscious of coupling that you've referred to as well. She gets it, and that's an important thing. I think I'd go through life and I think most people listening would probably agree that you just run into people especially when you're back out in the dating world, and you meet people who just don't get it. Unless you've been through it, it's something that kinda connects people. My dad was an army guy, so I kinda equate it to people who had gone to war, and you just talk to another guy and they just get it, you know. So anyway, I partnered with her, we met many times, we corresponded, we still correspond via email. And she's just been very very supportive, that I mean I'm about to launch Android and when android launches at the end of this month, I'll be re-engaging her efforts to get, start tweeting about it again. She's tweeted for me in the past and that's very helpful, I always get a good spike in downloads when she does that. And hey you know, it was a phenomenal experience, I gotta tell you I feel very lucky and I'm very happy that I have somebody like her who isn't just... she's not just bottom line focused like a lot of people are, who are just like "So how much money is this gonna make?" She's more concerned like when we met, it's like "is this gonna help people? Let's just focus on helping people and everything else will take care of itself." And I like that, I really really appreciate that.  Christina: Yeah for sure, I can see that in addition to her acting career she, of course, has the eCommerce lifestyle brand goop.com, which is also focused on having a great lifestyle, and you know the various different aspects of that, so having a positive co-parenting relationship I can see that would sort of fit in to that. Yeah, and she did have that very high profile divorce a few years ago, where the media was quite nasty towards her. I found it to be really discouraging that the intention and the desire to have an amicable divorce would be considered by the general media as being sort of a ridiculous goal to have or you know, just something the general public could aspire to.  So I love that she's putting up her energy behind this with you.  Michael: I think she's such a gracious person, I think Gwyneth is a really, you can just see it like when you're talking to her that she's really, you'll never know, you know I mean most of the media unfortunately for her, they portrayed her in any way that they want to, and they could do that with anyone, they could do that with you, me, anybody they wanted to. And I think it's unfortunate cause it's a "yeah you got your head in these clouds if you think people can do this amicably". But she's, you know, she's told me that she has a better relationship now with her ex-husband Chris, than ever before! She says "you know we have the best relationship we've ever had!" and that speaks volumes to her because that takes work. That takes a real concerted effort to just be able to say that, and to have done that cause she's doing better than I am, you know I mean like.. most people just don't do that well, with that. And I think most people like she said like most people get caught up in trying to be right... I'm right, I'm right. But it's like, it's not about being right, it's about being effective. Let's be effective for the benefit of our kids, let's not worry about being right. I listen to that, cause I'm.. just one of these guys who just want to be right. You know, I wanna win the argument. But you know, I got some maturing to do as well, you know. Christina: You've done some learning over the years. So in what circumstances do you see the app as being useful? Is this something you can see rolling out to most separating couples? Michael: Oh my goodness. I gotta tell you, I think married people should use this. I mean, let's face it, the number one reason above infidelity and religion - it's funny as it is, and if people would use this app, 'cause so many times, you know in today's world, and this isn't 40 years ago, but today's world, not our parents' generation, but you have 2 separate incomes, 2 separate bank accounts, and 1 person oftentimes paying the lion share of the expenses, and the other person's dropping it on a Harley Davidson or something like this just toys, and that becomes a point when things get tough. That becomes a real point of contention in a relationship. And so, I just think that anybody should. But obviously, that's a little lofty when you think that much married people are gonna jump on it. But, I gotta tell you, I see it ideally if two people can co-parent constructively together, it is a great platform for that. But if not, man do yourself a huge favor, use it because it is so much easier to just stay on top of things that document now than try to dig up those receipts later on. And you never do it, you never end up doing it, in fact, most attorneys tell me "I'm so frustrated with my clients because I tell them document... document and they just don't do it, and then inevitably they lose, and you know, that sucks".  Christina: Well there's so many things going on in life where you're separating trend to figure out where you're gonna live, maybe do you need to change your job, how are your children doing, and so the documentation just falls through the cracks. It's not high on the priority list, even though the lawyers might like it to pay. Michael: Yeah exactly. You've got life happening. And let's face it, it's not a fun thing to do. It is just the whole time you do it. You just dread it. It's not fun, I mean, and most people aren't organized with a lot of that stuff, so I just try to make it as easy as possible. And I think Fayr has a sincere effort at accomplishing that.  Christina: So having been divorced yourself and now being part of this industry trying to improve the experience for separating couples, do you have any advice? For couples who are in the process right now? Michael: Yeah I do, and it would be, you know it's tough because as you know, once you're years passed it you look back, and it's just like don't live with regrets. Really, really try to power through the nasty things that you kind of do, the unfair things that you do, because you're gonna regret the impact that it has on your kids later on because you wanna be the best you, you wanna be the best version of yourself for your kids. And the only way you're gonna be able to do that is just suck out the poison and they always say, you know, it's not the snake bite that kills you, it's chasing the snake that sends the venom to the heart that kills you. So just don't chase things. Just like what Gwyneth said, "don't worry about being right, just be effective and just be fair." I don't know, it feels like it's so easy to say, it feels like a cliche, it's like to put myself in that position back then, and I would say, "man, what the heck", he doesn't know what he's talking about. He isn't in my situation but, that's so I could tell parents it's just really trying to be fair with one another, 'cause it just hurts your kids when you're not. Christina: I think that's excellent advice. For people who are interested in trying out the app, what's the best way to contact you or to get a hold of the app? Michael : Yeah, so we're obviously on Facebook,  Fayr. On Twitter, it's Fayr Dad, and on Instagram we're @BeFayr. www.fayr.com. We have a lot of great information out there, you can google me as well, Michael Daniels Fayr, and you'll see up just a bunch of plan of the apps stuff, videos. We've been in the news all over the place even in England and Germany, actually. We got a lot of exciting things happening.  Fayr is doing great and we're gonna keep growing it as 55 million people across America who are living in a sort of two-home situation raising kids co-parenting, and I'm gonna keep marching forward and helping every one of them out that I can. Christina: And right now you said Fayr is available on the Apple App Store? Michael: Yes it is available in the App Store, that's Apple. And in another 2 weeks, it will be available for Android. Sorry Android has taken so long but we're constantly improving things and that's just more development time.  Christina: So for people who are not hearing this at the time of the original release, that will be around the end of November 2017. Okay Michael well thank you so much for your contribution to improving the lives of co-parents and kids out there. Michael: Christina thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it being here. Christina: And a pleasure talking to you.  

Did you know that using a Divorce Coach can help you minimize your legal wrangling? Tara Eisenhard shares what a Divorce Coach is and how they can help families get through the divorce process with more ease and grace. Tara Eisenhard is a passionate divorce coach who believes that families should evolve, not dissolve, through the divorce process. She is the author of The D-Word: Divorce Through a Child’s Eyes and the blog, Relative Evolutions. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: www.taraeisenhard.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/taraeisenhardFacebook: www.facebook.com/author.taraeisenhardTwitter: https://twitter.com/relativevolutnsLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taraeisenhard/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/   Episode Transcript Christina: Hi everyone! Today we're going to be talking about divorce coaching. Divorce Coaching is a really interesting new service, relatively new. You've heard about the sports coach, the life coach, the business coach. Today you're gonna learn about how a divorce coach can fit into your separation process and help you find your footing and make decisions on your process that will help to go smoothly for you. Today I'm talking to Tara Eisenhard. Tara is a passionate divorce coach who believes that families should evolve, not dissolve, through the divorce process. She also does mediation and is the author of The D-Word: Divorce Through a Child's Eyes. She also is a regular blogger and blogs under the name Relative Evolutions. Tara provides some great analogies and ways of thinking about how a divorce coach can help you in your circumstances. Let's jump into the interview. Christina: Welcome, Tara! Thank you so much for joining me today. Tara: Thanks so much for having me! I'm happy to talk. Christina: So, I'm excited to have you share with our listeners a little bit about yourself – you're doing a combination of some really interesting work, and yes. So tell us what brought you into the field of divorce? Tara: Well, my parents actually separated when I was 13, and they had a very good divorce. So it was a positive experience in my family. I grew up thinking that divorce was a really good thing overall. And unfortunately, I grew up and I got divorced, which was not unfortunate. That was great, I also had a good divorce. But when I told people that I was getting divorced, that's when I realized that unfortunately, my experience is not very normal. And so for a lot of people, divorce is a horrible experience that tears families apart. And I wanted to know why. So I started to... First I was just curious for my own information and I did some research and started to kinda go down this rabbit hole where I was learning everything that I could about divorce and how could it be better than it is, and why it is the way it is. And eventually, it just continued to ignite this passion within me to change the way that we talk about divorce and change the way that we approach divorce in our culture and try to make it better for more people. So at this point, it's been about 11 years since my divorce and I am now a divorce coach, I'm an author, I'm a mediator. And really just trying to spread the word that divorce can be a positive experience and a really healing thing for a family. Christina: That's fantastic! I'm really excited to share with people your positive approach. Because I think people are really inundated with a lot of negative assumptions and stories that they've heard from people. And you're in a somewhat of a new and growing area which is divorce coaching. So can you tell us a little bit about what exactly is that? Tara: So divorce coaching can mean different things. Sometimes you might see the word and its associated with more of like comfier service – somebody that's going to help you fill out paper work, for instance. I don't get involved in any of the actual legal process. My focus is a directional one. I work with my clients primarily on a one-on-one basis to help them to really get some self-awareness around what their goals are, what is working for them, what's not working. And then we try to put together a plan to help them strategize, how to get where they wanna be at the end of all of this and really throughout the process. As they're transitioning and transforming to find their new normal and birth their new life. Christina: And how would you say that that compares with counseling? I think because this is a new area, it's something people aren't really familiar with. They wouldn't have heard, maybe their friends or family members talking about it. So how do you make that distinction? Tara: So there's a really great analogy that I'd like to use involving a suitcase. And if you have a suitcase, and you take it to a therapist or counselor, that person is going to help you open the suitcase, will get how you packed, did you pack appropriately, what does it mean whether you folded your clothes, do you have enough room in the suitcase, is time to buy new clothes, that kinda thing and really dig deep into that suitcase. If you take the suitcase to a coach, the coach is gonna say to you, “OK, where is that that you wanna take the suitcase and travel to?” And then you tell them, and the coach is gonna say, “Well, here are some bus schedules and some train schedules and some plane schedules. Let's talk about the best way for you to get from here to there.” So really easy way to sum it up is therapy and counseling is a deep process; coaching is a directional one. Christina: Oh, that's a fantastic analogy, I really liked that! That's very visual. It really helps wrap your mind around that whole concept. So you're helping people navigate the divorce process and make decisions about how they want to move through. For example, the various legal processes might be one. Do you get into the emotional aspects at all? Or will that be something that you would refer out for example if somebody is having emotional barriers? Do you then help them with the process of choosing a counselor? Tara: I can help them to decide what kind of help they need. So just for instance, I have a program where one of the modules talks specifically about emotions and we talk about what healthy healing means, and for instance, if we talk about emotional wounds the way that we would look at a physical wound on your body. If you have a physical wound on your body, you need to know is this something that you can treat at home? Do you need to go to a doctor? If you need to go to a doctor, do you need to see a specialist? Is it necessary for you to get stitches or have surgery? Do you need ongoing therapy and ongoing treatment? So there's lots of variables that can come into play. And what I do on the emotional side is I really just help people to look at kind of how deep that emotional wound really is, and what kind of help do they need, if they need some additional therapy. Do they need to have, you know, medication for instances that something's going to help them, or would it help just to go and have somebody to talk to, and how often is that going to, you know, therapy gonna be necessary for them. That kinda thing. Christina: Hmm, OK. And what kinds of issues would you say are pretty common that you're finding that a lot of your clients are experiencing while they're going through the separation? Tara: Well, some really common issues are, for one, just kind of the sense of overwhelm. “What do I do next? My mom tells me to do this, my sister tells to do this. My best friend wants me to do this. My lawyer tells me that we need to do this.” So I work with people on kind of taking out that external chatter and really focusing on what their individual goals are. Another big one is the communication with the ex. “You know, every time I talk to my ex-husband on the phone or my soon-to-be-ex, you know we get into a huge argument and we spend 3 hours screaming at each other while the kids are waiting for dinner in another room,” or something like that. So, work with people around ways that they can be more productive in that communication. Setting those personal boundaries in their communication with their ex or even maybe some other family members, too, when we're talking about that overwhelming person giving advice. So setting boundaries and creating rules around which they're gonna function in this new kind of relationship. Christina: That's fantastic! I think that is a much-needed service. I think they need to learn a new way of communicating and particularly if they're gonna be co-parenting in the future. Because they're in a place now where obviously they're communication did not serve them well during the relationship. So they need to find a way to shift that so that they're not experiencing that same pain and frustration for years to come. Tara: Yes. Absolutely. Christina: And so what does your process for working with clients look like? In terms of frequency, do you have packages, do you have online options? Tara: I do. And, so there's two different ways of how I work with people. I do have online courses, I have my kinda signature courses called Divorce Made Doable. It's a six-week program and there's a virtual classroom. Each week is a different module, and then I also offer additional support with that. So we have a Facebook group, we do weekly conference calls and anybody who signs up for that course gets two one-on-one coaching sessions with me. Each week is a different topic and it's planned ahead of time. The other way that I work with people is to do a one-on-one coaching. And in that case, I meet them wherever they are, and whatever it is that they need to talk about in their unique situation. So it might be communication with the ex. It might be I don't know what to do next. I need to you know, figure out my budget. Or, I'm getting too much overwhelming information from other people. I don't know what to do with my kids, you know, as far as how I'm talking to them and how I'm presenting myself to them. All kinds of different things that can come into play there. And as far as the individual piece is concerned, I do have a package price for people that want to book multiple sessions at once. But not everybody needs a lot, you know. It just kinda depends – I usually recommend once a week is kind of a good, you know it's a good frequency to touch base, check in. Coaching always involves some kind of homework, some kind of follow up. So there's somewhere to go when this session is over. People know what they need to do next. But, you know, if it's a small issue, sometimes one session is enough. And if it's an ongoing kinda thing that you wanna get deeper and go broader, then you know, they might talk to me for multiple sessions. Five, ten, whatever. Christina: OK, it's nice to know you're flexible with that. So you can meet people where they are. And for the course, is that geared towards people who are at the very beginning of the separation process? Tara: The course is actually, and really any of my services are geared toward anybody at any stage. The content and the approach that I have is basically that, you know, our core needs as human beings apply, regardless of whether I've been separated for two minutes, two months, or twenty years. Because there's issues that are unique to that separation process. If they're continuing to be issues, things like communication from my ex, and people telling me what I need to be doing. Those are things that persist. So, it really doesn't matter. I've had people take the course that are still living together and they just know that their marriage is over and they don't know what to do next. They're looking to get a good start. And then I've had people go through the program that have actually been divorced for several years. And they're just looking for ways to kind of wrap it all up and kind of get some closure around it, and feel better emotionally, and know for sure that this is what I'm gonna do to put this chapter to bed and turn into a new one. Christina: For those people who have some financial concerns, I think it's quite common for people to be worried about involving more professionals than they need to. You touched on the pricing piece a little bit earlier. I wonder if you could comment a bit on how coaching might compare to legal fees or counselor's fees. And whether this is the kind of thing that might actually be preventative, you know if you do some coaching, maybe that will help reduce fees in other areas. Can you comment on that? Tara: Absolutely! And one of the things that I tell people is that quite often, the more professionals you involve in your process, the more you can control the cost of the process. Which really doesn't sound like it makes sense until you start to think about what the process looks like when you're taking everything to separate attorneys who are not necessarily skilled in dealing with, for instance, the emotional aspects of it. Or goal-setting. Things along those lines. So, working with a coach... the cost of coaching is less than the cost of working with an attorney. And that can, the prices of attorneys vary obviously by hundreds of dollars an hour. So the coaching cost can save you hundreds of dollars an hour, over working with the attorney. And then also knowing, through coaching, knowing, if we go back to that emotional wound. Being able to figure out where do I wanna go, what kind of help do I need with this, do I need to talk to a financial adviser, you know if my ex and I both go to, like a divorce financial analyst. Where that's one professional that is neutral that's helping both of us as opposed to paying two separate attorneys, to fight and communicate for us. Which is obviously going to cost a lot more money in the long run. Christina: And so with coaching, you've got the benefit of helping make decisions that are really aligned with the person's own goals and the potential financial savings. Are there any risks or anybody for whom you think coaching wouldn't be appropriate? Tara: Well it depends on the individual. And basically, you know, it comes down to whether or not somebody is ready for coaching, whether or not it's an appropriate outlet. And it's not appropriate for everybody. Coaching, like I said, it's a directional process. And so, you know I always talk to people before we start to schedule sessions, just to make sure that we're kind of on the same wavelength and that coaching is going to be an appropriate thing for them. For somebody who is not ready to let go of the past, somebody who isn't ready to begin to take those kinds of steps forward, even if its baby steps. In that case, therapy might be a much better option to kinda help get unstuck emotionally before, you know,  they're ready to run out and start setting new goals and kind of run that marathon. Christina: OK that's a really good point. Now, what advice would you have for people who are at the beginning stages of their separation? Tara: So my number one piece of advice, and it's actually two-fold. The first piece is to get honest. And be honest with yourself, with your partner, about the state of the relationship. A lot of times, things start to go downhill and you've got one person saying “This is over” and the other person saying, “Oh no, how can you give up?”, which is how my process started out. But you know when people are able, to be honest about the current state of a marriage and if I'm really honest I don't want to be married to somebody who doesn't wanna be married to me. Once you have that kind of clarity, you can reach that place of acceptance and be able to move forward much easier. The other piece is really self-awareness. Because when we know what our needs are when we know what our goals are, we're so much better equipped to move forward in a productive manner as opposed to just being angry and being in this place of misery, and wanting nothing more than for somebody else to feel miserable too. Christina: Absolutely, and that does not go anywhere positive, does it? Tara: No. Never. Christina: So what is exciting in your business right now that you would like people to know about? That they might find helpful as well? Tara: Well, probably the most exciting thing is that I'm also working to put together some other online options. We don't have them out right now but you can continue to look at my website and see what's, you know, what's new, what's going on there. And then you know, as always, I'm just really, in general, passionate about helping people. I absolutely love divorce, which is a very unique thing to say. I'm told everybody's very shocked when I say that. But I love divorce. I think it can be a wonderful, beautiful and healing process and I'm really eager to help people kind of make the best of their situation and help their family evolve in a respectful and peaceful manner. Christina: And you're also pro-marriage though, so you wanna share both sides of that? You just recently get married again, didn't you? Tara: I did! I did! I am absolutely pro-marriage. Not that I hate marriage. But I did... I got married in January of this year. And my outlook on it is really that.. You know I think that partnership were... as human beings, we're hardwired for connection and so partnerships come very easily for us. We wanna share our lives with another person. I think that love, in general, is wonderful and beautiful. And I love the idea of two people taking the world together and making the most of their bad situations, and kind of coming through it as a team. But I also see that as human beings, we grow and we change every single day. And when a relationship is appropriate in your 20s, it might not be appropriate in your 30s. The person that you wanna raise your children with is not necessarily the person that you wanna be retired with. And I don't think that any relationship should survive at the expense of its participants. So I think that as we grow and change, sometimes relationships do, too. And that's why I see divorce as a solution to a problem. It's, you know, divorce isn't a problem. Marriage isn't a problem. It's just that people grow and change and as we move through life, we need different solutions to be able to make the most of where we are. Christina: Exactly. Because happy marriages don't end in divorce. Tara: That's very true! Christina: Only the unhappy ones. Tara: Right. Christina: So I just wanted to quickly circle back and make sure that it's clear for people. So you've got the online course – do you work with people on an individual basis, both in person and online? Or is it just one or the other? Tara: I can work with people in person or online. I'm located in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in the United States. So locally, you know I'd be happy to meet with people but if there's somebody that is on the other side of the country or on the other side of the continent, I would be happy to meet with them via Skype or telephone conversation. Christina: Fantastic! And what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you? Tara: If they wanted to kinda just check me out, they can go to my website its taraeisenhard.com. I'm also on social media. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. And as far as contacting me, they can go to my website. There's actually a contact form on there that will come right to me if somebody wants to make an appointment for a consultation, or they just have questions about our program or anything like that. Christina: Perfect! OK, and we will have all of those links in the show notes for everyone. Tara: Sounds great! Christina: Excellent! Well, thank you for your time today Tara. I think this is an excellent service you're providing people, and you're gonna do a lot of great help. Tara: Thank you so much!

Is your partner emotionally explosive, regularly picking fights, and blaming others for all their troubles? Bill Eddy sheds light on how to manage conflict and communication with a high conflict person. Bill Eddy is a lawyer, therapist, and mediator in San Diego, California. He is the President of the High Conflict Institute. He is on the part-time faculty at the Pepperdine University School of Law and on the part-time faculty of the National Judicial College and is the senior family mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center. He is the developer of the New Ways for Families, a skill-based method for managing high-conflict families in separation and divorce, which is being implemented in court systems in the United States and Canada. Bill provides training to professionals worldwide on the subject of managing high-conflict personalities and high-conflict disputes. He provides seminars to attorneys, mediators, judges, mental health professionals, human resource professionals, employee assistance professionals, ombuds, hospital and college administrators, government agencies, law enforcement, homeowners’ association managers and many others. He has presented in over 30 states, several provinces in Canada, and England, France, Sweden, Austria, Australia, Israel, Netherlands and New Zealand. Mr. Eddy is also the author of several books, including: 5 Types of People Who can Ruin Your Life (coming soon) Dating Radar: why your Brain Says Yes to the One Who Will Make your Life Hell (with Megan Hunter, MBA) High Conflict People in Legal Disputes It’s All Your Fault: 12 Tips for Managing People Who Blame Others for Everything BIFF: Quick Responses to High-Conflict People So, What’s Your Proposal: Shifting High-Conflict People from Blaming to Problem-Solving in 30 Seconds Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Websites http://www.highconflictinstitute.com/ https://www.newways4families.com/ Visit www.unhookedmedia.com for Bill Eddy books and products. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/highconflictinstitute/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/HighConflict Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-eddy-bba98a1b/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Episode Transcript Christina: Hi everybody. Today I'm very lucky to be talking to Bill Eddy, an international leader in the field of conflict resolution with high-conflict people. Bill is a lawyer, therapist, and mediator in San Diego, California. He's also the founder and president of the High Conflict Institute. He teaches part-time at Pepperdine University School of Law, the National Judicial College, as well as private training sessions for professionals worldwide on the subject of managing high-conflict personalities and high-conflict disputes. And there's still more! He has developed a program called New Ways for Families, a skill-based method for managing high-conflict families. And his program has been implemented in several court systems in the United States and Canada. Bill is also the author of several books, really too many in the list here but in our discussion, we talk in some detail about BIFF: Quick Responses to High-Conflict People and BIFF stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. We talked about his book So What's Your Proposal? Shifting High-Conflict People from Blaming to Problem Solving in Thirty Seconds!, and his newest book Dating Radar. Bill says there are four characteristics of high-conflict people. These are all-or-nothing, black and white type thinking, unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors, and preoccupation with blaming others. So if these characteristics sound familiar, whether you're separating from a high-conflict person or you have a high-conflict person in another area of your life, this episode is for you. Here we go.  Christina: Welcome, Bill! It's such an honor to speak to you today.  Bill: Well Christina, I'm really glad to be speaking with you about this.  Christina: Your contributions to the area of resolving really difficult conflict has been prolific over your career. For anyone not yet familiar with Bill's work, I highly recommend that you check out his books and programs. To get started, why don't you tell us about your journey and what brought you to focus on high-conflict people?  Bill: Well, it's interesting. I, for many years, have been a social worker since actually over thirty years since about 1981. I really like working with children and families and I was kind of trying to find the best place for myself. And while I started out practicing as a child and family counselor, I also volunteered at our local mediation center and found that I really like helping resolve disputes between people. And that I liked mediation and decided I would go to law school to primarily do divorce mediation. But in law school, I realized I should probably practice law for a couple of years and so I started dealing with practicing family law after I got my law degree and found that much of it was like, social work. And so I noticed that I was doing divorce mediation with out-of-court couples who were basically able to get along and just needed some guidance and help. And then I go to court in the mornings and one or both people would be very difficult and we would spend months, sometimes years. And what I realized is the high-conflict problems have a lot to do with people's own nature with their own personalities. And so I started writing a lot about high-conflict personalities but also how to deal with people like that, especially if you're going through a divorce or separation. So that's kind of how I ended up here.  Christina: OK, great! And so to clarify for the listeners, how do you define a high-conflict person? And how would somebody be able to tell if they're dealing with a high-conflict person?  Bill: Well in a sense, a lot of feedback I get from working with law clients and social work clients and mediation clients, is that people suddenly go “Oh my goodness, I know I'm dealing with a high-conflict person!” But I'd say there's four characteristics. And sometimes you can get a hint of this even before you separate. That is a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions where the person's emotions just kinda lead them down a lot of different paths where they start yelling and things that doesn't help; extreme behaviors like yelling, throwing things, lyings, taking family money, spreading rumors – all of these kinds of things. But the fourth is the biggest in many ways, and that's the preoccupation with blaming others. And if you're getting divorced from someone like this, you may be and have been and will become their target of blame. And they put all these intense thinking, emotions, behavior on the other person who's their target of blame. And so when people are getting ready to divorce or separate from someone who is like this or may show those behaviors, I encourage caution and planning so that you don't go through too much extreme difficulty becoming that person's target of blame.  Christina: So is it fair to say that most people probably would have noticed some or all of these types of characteristics during the relationship, or does it ever happen that a separation could all of a sudden sort of bring this type of behavior into the fore?  Bill: We see both. I'd say that most people that have a high-conflict divorce have realized during the relationship whether they are married or just living together that the person they're dealing with has extremes from time to time. But I've had people tell me that they really were surprised at how extreme the person became when they did go through divorce. So usually you know you're dealing with some difficulties but sometimes the difficulties during the divorce even gets the person by surprise. So that's why it's good to kind of think about patterns of behavior and there's high-conflict pattern of behavior in advance and to prepare for that possibility.  Christina: What type of preparation do you recommend?  Bill: Well, a few things. First of all, get support. Build a support system. I think it helps to meet with a counselor occasionally and just kind of prepare for what you may go through, 'cause you'll maybe personally attacked, publicly criticized, harassed, etc. Also, get consultation with a family lawyer, whether you'll hire one or not, a lot of family lawyers today will let you consult for half an hour or an hour. And kind of talk about your situation and what some of the problems could be. Another is to kinda collect information. What a lot of people we encourage to do is make sure you find out what all your bank account numbers are. Some people take pictures of all their household furniture, the big items, in case things start disappearing during a divorce. And also keep a journal of extreme events. So let's say there was a pushing and shoving incident happened while you're still living together. You wanna write down exactly what happened ideally on the day it happened. So if six months or a year later, you get blamed for that event, you got some kind of record to say “Wait a minute, this is what happened. I didn't start pushing. The other person started pushing.” You know, whatever it is that happened. So in a sense, it's preparing for the worst, but hoping for the best. And not assuming that the worst will happen, but kinda having your eyes open, having support, having information and keeping some records.  Christina: OK and so part of what I'm hoping to do is to provide people with a range of dispute resolution options and some hope that you don't necessarily have to end up in court. Now a lot of court files are comprised of at least one high-conflict person. But I know that you recommend that mediation can be possible and so that might be surprising for some people. Can you share your view of why mediation is a viable option in such a circumstance?  Bill: Well the reality is that over 90 percent of divorces are resolved by agreement. Even the ones that go to court, some end up finishing by agreement. So there's a really good chance even in a high-conflict case that it's gonna get resolved by agreement. And so I think mediation is really good because it keeps things calm. While two attorneys can negotiate with each other, it may be just the attorneys on their own and slip into being more adversarial. So mediation kinda keeps things calm. And collaborative divorce, if people have two collaborative lawyers, the lawyers can't go to court so they try hard to settle the case. So, something that kind of manages the case, and that's where I see mediation really be effective and that's most of what I do now. I've been a family lawyer for 25 years, but the last ten years I just do mediation. And about a third of my cases are high-conflict cases and people mostly reach an agreement. So what I encourage people do is kind of think a two-track system. One is try hard to negotiate and settle issues and mediation or some other form of negotiation, but keep your records, keep your notes your journal just in case you have to go to court. And the more prepared you are, the less likely the other person is to try to drag you into court. So I very much believe that mediation and I see high-conflict cases work things out. Sometimes it takes longer than it would with a case that wasn't high-conflict but still high-conflict people can settle in mediation so it's definitely worth a try. And it doesn't really hurt to try mediation. So that's why I just encourage people to start with mediation or some negotiation methods first.  Christina: Yeah, for sure. I agree that one of the benefits of mediation is the focus on trying to de-escalate, but I like your point of keeping the records and making sure that you are prepared just in case. But try to keep with the mindset that resolution is going to be the best for the family. And not using those records as a threat to the other.  Bill: Exactly! And there's a saying among lawyers, is used as something as a shield, not as a sword. And I really agree with that. Just protect yourself. And I might mention I have a book called Splitting, which is protecting yourself while divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. And it's really geared to potentially high-conflict situations and we really emphasize, my co-author and I, Randi Kreger, to be prepared to take notes but also to communicate well. We talk about using the BIFF method – brief, informative, friendly and firm. So that you're really trying to put a positive on things even if it feels like a potentially negative situation.  Christina: I think that BIFF strategy is really helpful. And it can feel overwhelming for people when they're dealing with somebody who wants to engage in conflict all the time, that's exhausting. Are there any other go-to tactics or strategies that people can keep in mind when they are trying to negotiate with a high-conflict spouse? And I'm thinking particularly of co-parenting is part of their arrangement and regular communication is necessary.  Bill: Yeah, there's... it really helps to focus on what you want for the future and not talking and emphasizing what you don't want to happen in the past and people make that mistake all the time is with a potentially high-conflict person. Just say what you want. So rather than say “You never took the kids to their karate class,” is to say “I'd like you to take the kids to their karate class.” And, because what happens is you trigger so much defensiveness that people are busy defending themselves rather than saying “Yes, I can agree to that.” And so think the future. Think proposals. And just so the people know there's other information out there, I also have a little book called So What's Your Proposal? And it talks about a lot, like twenty examples in there of focusing on the future by making a proposal and focusing on it like the other person has a choice that you're willing to discuss with them. Other options so it's a proposal, not a demand. And that's so important in dealing with a high-conflict partner or co-parent because it's easy to just try to tell them what to do or to point out all the mistakes that they've made. And that definitely doesn't help. You just wanna say what you're aiming for. Say, “I would like you to pick up the kids after school for karate twice a week.” rather than “You've been doing it wrong for years.”  Christina: And I find that sometimes it's necessary to repeat those types of questions. For example, “So what's your proposal?” If you take the karate example that you used, “I'd like you to pick up the kids from karate.” Because sometimes, the really high-conflict people will grab on to even a positive statement like that and be defensive. “Well, I always pick up the kids from karate.” And so bringing the conversation back again to that focusing on the positive and the future and that is great. So that's what I'd like you to do.  Bill: Right. Right, right. Just really try to emphasize the positive and that's good to point out things that are working. A lot of times when people dealing with a high-conflict person, they don't give them any positive feedback. They just look at everything that's wrong. And it really helps to say “I appreciate that thing you did last week. That was helpful.” Or “The kids said that they enjoyed doing that activity with you last week. That's great!” Because the more you can do that, you're being kind of a role model for the other parent to do that back. And to say “Well you did something I appreciate. Thank you for that.”  Christina: And then that type of appreciation and role modeling will hopefully inspire similar responses in return.  Bill: Exactly. And what's interesting is, we're talking briefly before about the BIFF response method of emails that are brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And the feedback we're getting is people really like writing their emails that way. 'Cause even if someone's hostile towards them, you're responding in a clean way. You're not being hostile or rude back. And what we're hearing is that the other person starts to respond with a BIFF response as well even though they don't know what a BIFF is. They just try to be brief or more straight in information, friendly, and firm. And so it's contagious, and that's important as people to realize everything you do is contagious, especially in a highly emotional situation like separation or divorce. So what you want the other person to catch from you is calmness, positive feedback. Not anger and resentment and focusing on what went wrong. So you can influence the other person a little bit, not a lot, but somewhat by being positive and not being negative.  Christina: I think it might be really helpful to give the listeners an example of a BIFF response. So let's say that somebody receives an email demanding that the parenting schedule change the following week. What might a BIFF response look like?  Bill: Well actually, let me read one to you from the Splitting book...  Christina: OK.  Bill: Because it really, it's a classic example. And so let's say this is Joe and Jane and they've been separated for a couple of years – maybe divorced or maybe never married but with a couple of kids. And so Jane actually wants to take the kids Friday afternoon to her boss' birthday party at the office. And so she made that request, simple request. Jane and Joe response:  “Jane, I can't believe you're so stupid as to think I'm going to let you take the children to your boss' birthday party during my parenting time. Have you no memory of the last six conflicts we've had about my parenting time? Or are you having an affair with him? I always knew you would do anything to get ahead. In fact, I remember coming to your office party and witnessing you making a total fool of yourself. Including flirting with everyone from the CEO down to the mail room clerk. Are you high on something? Haven't you got your finances together enough to support yourself yet? Without flinging yourself at every time they can have it, and on and on and on...”  Christina: Oh my gosh that's traumatic just to listen to!  Bill: I know! I know! It's funny I read this to family lawyers and they say “I get these everyday.” So that's not a BIFF response. That's not the way we want people to talk. But if you think of a BIFF response as brief, informative, just straight information, no opinions, criticisms, emotions. Friendly, just a friendly greeting. And firm in that it ends the conversation or it asks for a simple yes or no response.  So let me read Jane's response and see if this is a BIFF response.  “Thank you for responding to my request to take the children to my office party. Just to clarify, the party would be from 3 to 5 on Friday at the office and there would be approximately thirty people there, including several other parents and their school-aged children. There'll be no alcohol because that's a family-oriented firm and there'll be family-oriented activities. I think it would be a good experience for the kids to see me at my workplace. Since you've not agreed, and of course I will respect that and withdraw my request because I recognize it is your parenting time.”  Bill: So, that's brief, that's straight information, it's friendly, she says “Thank you for responding...”, and she says “I respect your parenting time...”, and it's firm that it ends the conversation. Now she could have, depending on what she knows about Joe, have ended by saying, “With these information, I hope you'll reconsider. Please let me know by Thursday at 5:00. Yes or No.” So either of those would be a BIFF response. But do you feel the difference in the tone?  Christina: Yeah, I mean it would take a huge amount of mindfulness and maturity to be able to respond that way. Probably if some deep breathing and some time in between reading the first email and sending the BIFF response.  Bill: Right. One thing we encourage is that people have someone else look at it before they send it. So that they can kinda catch if you let anything kinda weak through that is really angry back. But you're right. It's not easy and in many ways, what we teach people is self-management. It's managing their own emotions. It's keeping their thinking flexible. Managing moderate behavior and checking themselves rather than blaming other people. And I might mention we have a method we call New Ways for Families that teaches a lot of skills, like making proposals and BIFF responses. So that people can get more and more comfortable doing these things with practice. And I'll tell you, we just get a lot of good feedback about this method because people feel more in control of themselves. And then the other person has less and less influence on them with their negativity.    Christina: Sure. Because the only person we really can control is ourselves. So when you're dealing with somebody high-conflict, the odds of being able to change their behavior is probably relatively slim. Hopefully, over time, they might take on this BIFF strategy themselves. But it in the meantime, people can affect how they are looking at the situation and choosing to respond.  Bill: Right. It's a learning process, it's a process of patience. I think it's kinda giving yourself encouraging statements, that's something else we teach with our New Ways for Families method. Because you know you're dealing with a hard time. And you can give yourself encouraging statements. You really can focus on what makes you feel good and get less stressed by it all. By getting support as I've said at the very beginning is a big part of that – from friends, family, even a counselor from, if you find it helpful.  Christina: Is the New Ways program, is that online and something anybody can sign up for?  Bill: It's both. It's online, where anyone can go. And actually, I'll give you our website for New Ways. It's newways4families.com. And we use the number 4 as we say new ways, and then the number 4, families.com. And the online version is called Parenting Without Conflict. Now that's kind of an aspiration because there's always gonna be some conflict. We just want it to be low-conflict, not high-conflict.  Christina: Or respectful conflict.  Bill: Exactly. But it's a twelve, basically twelve sessions, twelve hours, and it's approved by various court systems for people required to take a parenting class. But a lot of people just find it really helpful because of the skills that it teaches. We also have some cities where this is available as a counseling program and the judges actually order both parents to get the counseling program method which is six individual sessions for each parent with a separate counselor and a workbook. And then they each have three parent-child sessions to teach the kids the same skills – flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking themselves. The online course anybody can take. It's very easy to access that. But what we find is skills really help a lot and the people want skills. They want to know “How do I deal with my own emotions?” and “How do I respond to the other person's emotions?” and how you go through a divorce will really teach your kids how they should solve relationship problems in the future. And so we were really encouraging people kinda practice self-management skills during this time.  Christina: That's a fantastic resource and we will provide the link in the show notes so people can access that.  Bill: Let me mention one other thing is our other website, highconflictinstitute.com can be used to look at a lot of articles. We have a lot of free articles as well as books to pay for and videos. So I'll make sure you know about both of those websites.  Christina: Thank you, we'll post both of those. So taking just a bit of a left turn here, I see that your newest book, Dating Radar is helping people understand why they make the relationship choices that they do. I think the subtitle says it all: 'Why your brain says Yes to the one who'll make your life hell'. Now, I haven't had the chance to read it yet but I'd love to hear a bit of an overview because that sounds like that's really gonna help people hear out why they've made the decisions they have in the past and hopefully help make better decisions in the future.  Bill: I'm so glad you're asking about that 'cause we're really... Megan Hunter and I co-authored it. And we really feel enthusiastic about what we put in there. We did an online survey which helped give us feedback from a lot of people who said they've been through high-conflict relationships and warning signs that they missed. So in this book, we focused on three key things for Dating Radar. First, is know what you're looking for. Learn what the patterns of five high-conflict personality styles are. Then look at how they jam your radar that people get misled or overwhelmed with the goodness. You know, the knight-in-shining-armor image, the super charming man or woman who just sweeps you off your feet – that this isn't real. And that people realize this person is too good to be true. That they act like their favorite most important interests are the same as what they realize yours are. And we call that a fake compatibility that people are misled by. But the third category is your own blind spots, and that's where we look at kind of cultural beliefs about relationships that don't help. And a lot of songs feed this. You know, that you can change your partner “I will be able to fix this person and make them into a more responsible, honest partner. And that's just not true. We have to learn what you see is what you're going to get. And so a lot of people, you know like the day before they get married they go, “You know I'm not so sure but you know, I think time and love will change someone's soul. I'll make him settle down.” Of course, there's the old saying that women marry somebody based on the idea that they can change him and that men marry someone based on the idea that she'll never change.  Christina: Right.  Bill: So we have a lot of beliefs that trick us up so, that's what it helps with what we really think that so many people, both Megan and I worked in the divorce field for so many years and we see so many people they go, “Why did I do this? And I missed the warning signs.” We wanna help people know the warning signs and not miss them. So that you know, you don't have to go through a high-conflict divorce or separation later on.  Christina: Well that's fantastic. I'm looking forward to reading that. Before we end, do you have any other recommendations for people who find themselves in the situation of separating from a high-conflict person?  Bill: Just basically you know, getting support, getting information... We've got a lot of books. I mentioned BIFF, but I didn't mention that we have a BIFF book that teaches people how to write BIFF response emails and Facebook posts, etc. We have So What's Your Proposal, we have Dating Radar. So another book called Don't Alienate the Kids!, which talks about how we try to help the kids this time. And that's such an important part. People wonder “What do I say? Should I say something? Shouldn't I say something?” And so we recommend a lot of specific things to explain what's going on without badmouthing the other parent. Warning family members and friends, “You may hear terrible things about me. Please check them out with me. Don't hesitate to ask me if something true that you've heard.” Those kinds of things. So overall, it's being prepared, but I would say if someone's facing a high-conflict divorce, just plan ahead before you start the divorce process. Before you even say “I wanna get divorce” or “I'm moving out” is get your dots in a row. And the book Splitting really gives you a whole kinda map for what to expect and what to do.  Christina: This has been a wealth of information for our listeners, Bill. Thank you so much for being here with me today. And thank you for all of your contributions to the field of family law.  Bill: Thank you so much, Christina! And best wishes with your work.  Christina: Thank you. 

Did you know that you and your kids can use mindfulness to help manage the stress of divorce? Aurora Johannson shares with us how you can use the strategy of mindfulness to reduce your stress levels and make better decisions. Aurora is a mediator, family lawyer, mindfulness teacher and yogi in Kelowna, British Columbia. She enjoys peacemaking,  meditating, teaching and the interconnectedness of all things. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: https://insidepassagelaw.ca/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mindfuldivorce/ LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/aurora-johannson-a17aaa3b Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/   Episode Transcript Christina: Hey everybody! Welcome to the Divorce Well Podcast, today I'm talking to Aurora Johannson. Aurora is a Mediator, Family Lawyer, and a Mindfulness and a Yoga instructor. She has been a practicing Family Lawyer for over 8 years and just recently has started an innovative new practice, a law, and mediation practice which integrates Mindfulness into all of her processes.  Divorce can be such a stressful transition even when you and your partner are doing your best to make things go as smoothly and respectfully as possible. Aurora shares how using Mindfulness can help you manage your stress and improve your decision making. Check it out, it's a really great discussion. Welcome Aurora, thank you so much for being here today. And I’m really thrilled that you’re actually here in person. This is my first in-person interview.  Aurora: Oh it's very exciting for me too! Christina: So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got interested in mindfulness. Aurora: Well, I am a parent, I'm a family lawyer and have been since 2007. I have a partner who I've worked with for several years. And a few years ago I started getting, I guess getting burnt out from work and from just having so many, different things to do in a day. And the work wasn't feeling like it really jived with me anymore. It was taking more than it was giving, and my sister actually had some experience with mindfulness so already, she'd gone to a couple of silent meditation retreats and I started looking into it and I believe it was her who told me about an app called "Insight Timer". Once I got onto that the rest just sort of flowed, and the more I learned about it, the more it made total sense to me. And I found very little in the Mindful Meditation, and Mindfulness practices, and teachings to really argue with. It just went with my own personality and my understanding about the world. I'm a big believer in physics actually, rather than religion, you know the interconnectedness of all things is really like a physics concept. Looking at electrons, and how we're all made up of, stardust. Actually, but when you really take it down to like a particle level, or an electron level it's true. So, that was one of the concepts that I.. I liked that there was this scientific basis to it as well, and I've gone from there.  Christina: Okay, yeah I've been reading that there have been quite a few, studies done in recent years on the physiological effects and benefits of Mindfulness. But why don't we take a step back, and for people who are not familiar with the concept, can you describe what exactly Mindfulness is? What do you mean when you're talking about Mindfulness? Aurora: Right, so backing out of the whole universe, and having to understand all of those things. It's really a very simple concept. Mindfulness is awareness of the present moment that you're in. Because we really can't be anywhere other than where we are right now, but, we spend a whole lot of time if not even most of our time, either in past things that have happened going through our mind. How we could've done them differently, maybe even congratulating ourselves for things that went well. Or in future, things that could happen, or are going to happen. Everything from what we need to make for dinner, and laundry we need to do, to where we want our careers to go, and relationships and things like that. That's not a bad thing, those are natural things. That's how we work as human beings, we plan and we learn from our past. However, there's a lot of enjoyment and clearheaded thinking to be gained from being able to be present. And a lot of, sort of calming mental health effect as well. So it's just being aware of your, present situation. Right now, right here, I'm sitting on a chair across from you. I can feel the carpet under my foot. I can see the table in front of me, I'm aware of the temperature in the room and I'm not zoning out, I'm actually zoning in. I'm really aware of what my body's doing. What I can see, hear, feel that sort of stuff. Christina: So it sounds like something that you would be practicing, basically throughout your day, rather than during a specific period of time. For me Mindfulness, sort of blurred together with meditation? Is meditation part of Mindfulness? Is that part of how you achieve Mindfulness? How do those two things connect? Aurora: That's a really good question because meditation... you know sitting out lotus pose and saying "Om", is where many people go right off the bat. When the thing about Mindfulness, but actually, you're absolutely right. Mindfulness is a practice, that we have throughout our day, and many people all people probably have moments of Mindfulness in their day. Say you, this is a classic one, say you drive home, it's a day that you're kind of tired you've been working, it's been a long day, you drive home and you realize that you can't remember all the turns that you took on the way home. That moment when you realize that, and you recognize "Oh I''m home, I'm sitting in my car here." That's you coming back to the present moment. And what Mindful practice really is, is doing that over and over and over and over again. So, when your mind wanders, and you recognize that it's wandered, bringing it back.  One of the Mindfulness practitioners I listen to, I can't remember the name of the top of my head, but they talk about it, it's like training a puppy. You call the puppy to you, if the puppy doesn't come the first time, you don't go and beat the puppy. You don't chastise the puppy, or yourself when your mind wanders. You just go and get the puppy and bring it back to you. And so, where that intersects with meditation is that meditation.. a daily practice of meditating, I missed mine this morning and that's okay. I'll try and fit it in later today. But daily practice of meditation helps you grow the neural pathways that you need to have to be able to bring that puppy of your mind back.  Christina: Okay, interesting. So the meditation is actually sort of like the training ground to help you with your mindfulness throughout the day.  Aurora: Right, it's kind of like going to the gym. Yeah.  Christina: Okay so what would you say are the benefits of Mindfulness, both in general and also within the legal process. Why is this something that people should be considering? Aurora: So looking at Mindfulness as a remedial activity, helping you with the problem. It can help you reduce stress, just looking at it for a period with a positive standpoint. Even when you aren't having a stressor, and your practicing Mindfulness, you may find that situations that would've stressed you out before, are less stressful.  I'm a family lawyer, my clients have a lot of stress. I had a lot of stress. When I started practicing Mindfulness, I noticed that that went way down. And it sort of increased my capacity to deal with things. When you think about, this is something that I got from our colleague Henry Yampolsky, from taking a course with him on Mindful Mediation, when you have a bunch of stressors in your life, you may be finding yourself feeling maxed out like you're at maximum capacity. How can you change that? It seems like the vessel that is us, is the size that it is, how can we affect our capacity to deal with things. You can actually increase your capacity, the space that you have to process, information and challenges, by practicing Mindfulness. Scientifically you can also shrink your amygdala which is where a lot of your stress response arises, I believe that's your reptilian brain people call it sometimes you fight or flight center. And what you want to be able to do is to respond to things rather than react and so if that system is not super powerful, but your capacity system, your space, your mindful awareness, is what's been strengthened, then when something comes up that's stressful you'll have the facility within yourself to deal with it. Christina: That's one of the things that I read recently, was that the amygdala would become less sensitive, so you're less likely in a stressful situation, to have that fight or flight response triggered and you can respond more rationally or productively rather than a knee-jerk type reaction.  Aurora: I believe that's correct. That's my understanding of it. And that it physiologically actually become smaller, so less sensitive and smaller. A lot of people are fond of saying that the neurons that fire together wire together, and so if your neurons that are firing all of the time are in that stress reactivity mode, those are the ones that are being enhanced and growing. And if you're practicing your daily meditation for 5 minutes or 10 minutes or half hour, then that's what's being strengthened.  Christina: So then as, a family lawyer, how do you see all of these benefiting your clients who are going through the separation process?  Aurora:  Well, I noticed that my clients have tended over the years to be largely preoccupied, and I can think of many meetings and there are countless more that I can't recall, where people getting to a.. really like a trance, where they even look like they're looking into a far-off distance, when they're telling me their stories about things that have happened to them, or things they wished had gone differently, or fears that they have about what can happen in the future and it's really important for me to know that story. But I notice that they'll get repetitive about it, not just in a way that I need to hear what they have to say, but in a way that they're really repeating this past history, or fear to themselves over and over again. And I've used Mindfulness practice as I've actually used they like, alright let's come back to the room it seems like we are way far off and somewhere that where we don't know anything about what's going on in the future yet, or what could. And I get drawn down there as well. and I realize, wait a second where are we? We are not in this room. Let's come back to the room and look at what we actually have any control over, which is ourselves. So it empowers the clients to get out of that mode of trying to figure out what another human being is going to do and persuading them or cajoling them to do or not do that, and to come back to what actually they can control and when they realize "Hang on a second, I'm driving the bus that is my life, that person's not steering anything, they can influence me but I actually have a lot of control over what I do in my life and my choices". It puts them in a place where they're going to make much better decisions for their lives and their children's lives, in future setting up the life that they want, rather than just reacting or responding to this how they wish people would be or they fear people will be. Also, it helps them deal with stress... Christina: Which is, of course, prevalent for most people throughout the process.  Aurora: Yes. Yes, I've seen people actually, I believe I was practicing Mindfulness techniques with my clients for years and not realizing what it was. And it was very satisfying to watch my clients transform from the time they would come to me often very stressed, they were sometimes overweight, underweight, really visibly anxious looking, to living their own lives. And that was really exciting for me. And I can remember one of my clients particularly, who was just quite birdlike and quivering with anxiety, and over the next year, she just blossomed she found new work that she was able to choose just deciding herself. She didn't have to worry about what her partner, who she didn't get along with, was going to say and things like that, just a lot of like self-determination. And what I used to say to people was, it's okay to go out and have fun, it's okay to figure out what you want to do and to do that, I think the Mindfulness is one of the things that helps them with that. Figure out what those things are.  Christina: Right. Are there particular situations, or people for whom you think that this Mindfulness practice would be really well-suited? Is that something that everybody should consider or are there certain things where you can say, you know if this applies to you or if that applies to you this might be of particular benefit and you should really think about trying it out.  Aurora: I would say that it can benefit anyone or everyone. It's really a non-invasive thing because it's only you examining yourself. And being present with yourself, listening to yourself. That said, I would say that anyone who's curious about it would probably really benefit from it, maybe more quickly because they may have a little bit more excitement about it. But once people are practicing it, and seeing the difference that it can make, I think just about anybody could benefit from it. The only caution I would say is that we have a number of, well... myriad coping mechanisms and psychologists would be the people to talk to about that but we have a number of coping mechanisms, things like denial for example, that are in place for a reason. So if someone is really, say using denial as a coping mechanism, it's not for me to try to re-orient them and bring them out of that. Because they're using it for a reason and if they're still using it, my understanding is that, that's because they're not ready to let go of it. So, the thing to just be aware of when practicing mindfulness is that you can come across thoughts that are disturbing or upsetting to you. And that is a good time to get some professional assistance, somebody like a counselor who can help you to find other coping mechanisms or help you to investigate those things just so you're not going it alone. Christina: Yeah, that's really good to know. So when you're having more awareness about your thoughts you might actually end up having upsetting thoughts or realizations and then that has to be dealt in a healthy way.  Aurora: Right. Christina: And I will be having some interviews with a counselor, and a coach, and so they will be able to shed a little bit of light on that too.   Christina: So, would you say that these types of principles can be shared well with children?  Aurora: Definitely, definitely. I introduced my oldest son to some meditations on the insight timer, there was a 20-day challenge, 20-day learn to meditate challenge, and it was one minute at each day. So Day 1 is 60 seconds long. And he really enjoyed that, he did it in the evening just as he was going to bed. He'd lay down in bed and he plugged in his tablet and used that app and he's so proud that he did that. He learned a lot about it. He's 11 years old and so when people at school are making jokes about meditation and doing that classic Om pose, which is part of it, but it's not all of it, and not everybody has to do it that way. But he knows that that's not necessarily what meditation is about.  Christina: Right. That's impressive. So he got up to 20 minutes?  Aurora: He got up to 20 minutes and he still uses it sometimes to help him fall asleep. He gets attention issues and so sometimes in the night when it's time to go to sleep, his brain is really active. A lot of our brains are at that time. So to be able to come back from the thoughts to lying in bed.   Christina: Would you say that using an app like that is a helpful way to get anybody started?  Aurora: Absolutely. It's really approachable and there's more than one app out there.  Christina: This is not an advertisement for that app. We will not be sponsoring this.   Aurora: This is not an advertisement for that app. What I would say is to find a way in, that's mindfulness talk. But it's also for lay people. Find a way, just try it and there are so many different types of meditation out there. There are groups that you can be part of in person, you can do guided meditations. A lot of people find guided meditations great to start. And then what I found myself is I started with guided meditations and then the better I got it doing those, the more consistent I was, the more I actually really started to crave trying to do it on my own just with a timer. So I use a timer now often. But sometimes you know it's Friday or Saturday or something, and I just feel like something different, and I'll find a new guided meditation.  Christina: Can you describe one of those guided meditations? What is that? Like, what are they saying to you?  Aurora: How are they programming me?  Christina: Yeah.  Aurora: No way. They are not programming me at all. Um, all right. Well, a common one, this sort of a favorite of a lot of people is a body scan meditation. And that's where you might start sitting or lying down if you're feeling drowsy. You might start sitting up and eyes closed or open, but in a place where you won't be interrupted during the time of the meditation. Both the shortest body scans are both 15 minutes.  Christina: Oh that's a pretty long to start of.  Aurora: It is but because you have instructions, the time sort of flies by. it gives you prons of what you're thinking about now. So for example, the one I'm thinking about by Elisha Goldstein, he starts out in I believe your right big toe. And you just basically go through many different areas of your body, working from your toes up, so you just start by just feeling your right big toe. And then into the ball of your foot, and to the ankle, because you'll notice probably throughout today after having this conversation that there are lots of parts of your body you just completely ignore all day. But you can bring your awareness to them at any time.  Christina: So for people who are right now feeling stressed and busy and overwhelmed are ready, what would one of those one-minute meditations look like?  Aurora: A 1-minute meditation may look just like coming to a comfortable seated position, closing your eyes and watching your breath. Just for the minute. While watching even your chest rise and fall, or your belly rise and fall. Anything rhythmic that's going on in your body, whatever you feel is comfortable to you. And here is the key: when you notice your mind has wandered because everyone's does. You just bring your attention back to that rhythmic item. Over and over again. And you may notice at the end of a minute that it's wandered for the entire minute, or not. And there's no wrong way of doing it. You just bring your attention back.  Christina: And then noticing of the whole mind wandering, that's the actual success part rate is that you've noticed and now you're coming back.  Aurora: Exactly. And there's a micro and a macro level to that. So, on the micro level, it's within that meditation. You notice your mind has wandered and you come back. On a macro level, it's about getting your butt on the cushion, or the kitchen chair, wherever you medicate. And for me for example, I haven't done my meditation today so I know on a macro level, I need to get my butt in the chair later on today.  Or if it's weeks between the last time you meditated than today, coming back to the meditation, you'll notice you've wandered away from it, come back to it. And non-judgment is one of the main tenants of mindfulness philosophy. Not beating yourself up when your mind wanders. And noticing that, that instinct to trust yourself.   Christina: Right. So what recommendations do you have for people who are going through the process of separation right now, and are hoping to separate peacefully?  Aurora: That is a big question. I think learning is much about yourself as you can. Learning in terms of mindfulness, what does your mind wander off to, and bringing it back? The more you can know about yourself, the better decisions you can make. You can notice when you're motivated by fear. That's something that is unlikely to happen. You can notice when you're motivated by anger or spite, or when you're doing something self-destructive. Or that might not be the best thing for your children. I've seen so many people who just wanna do best for their kids, and who gets side-tracked on some sort of spiteful venture. And I think as a parent, I don't even really judge that. I used to judge that so harshly. And now I think, we all have lots of things that we do regularly where we go "that was not my best parenting moment". But it doesn't mean that I'm a bad mom. But I mindfully notice.    And then I can go to my son and say "that really wasn't very cool what I just said, and I'm really sorry, can we try over? Come back to where we wanna be?" So yeah, I would say that the more you can learn about yourself, the more aware you can become, the better decisions you'll make. And also, the more opportunity there will be free to experience. Enjoy, even while this process is happening.  Christina: That's something that a lot of people might not have even considered possible.  Aurora: That's true. People who are having divorces and separations often go about it either as something should be avoided entirely or something where if they work really, really, really hard at it and dedicate all their time to it, it would go by faster. Or it'll be more successful. And that just isn't the case. Often they just sort of get in an obsessive kind of a thing where it's consuming their lives. But it's also about proportion. If you have even 20 minutes a day where you are taking time out to tune in, maybe failure body or enjoy looking at flowers or whatever it is that you like and actually enjoy that cup of coffee or tea you're having actually taste it, what does the liquid feel like in your mouth stuff like that, that time is time where you weren't stressing about your divorce.  Christina:  Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing all of this great information, Aurora.  Aurora: It's my pleasure. I hope people will get turned on about mindfulness because I really feel confident that it can help.   

Have you ever wondered how some divorced couples make their co-parenting so seamless and cooperative? Christina interviews renowned Co-Parent Coach and author, Karen Bonnell, for tips on achieving co-parenting success. Christina Vinters is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Karen’s work as a Collaborative Divorce Coach spurred her determination to write “The Co-Parenting Handbook” “ with Kristin Little, Child Specialist.  Karen has over 30 years of experience working with couples and families facing transition, loss, growth and change. A graduate of the University of Michigan, Karen has been board certified and licensed as an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner since 1982. She served on the faculty of University of Michigan, Eastern Michigan University & Seattle Pacific University before beginning full-time private practice in 1984. She regularly writes for, speaks to and trains healthcare and legal professionals. As a certified Compassionate Listening trainer, Karen utilizes this heart-centered approach to authentic speaking and capable listening used around the world in high-conflict situations such as Israel/Palestine. Her deep listening skills make all the difference working with co-parent pairs in conflict as they find their way through the pain of divorce into a future with optimism. Guest Links: Website: https://coachmediateconsult.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pg/karenbonnellcmc/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/karenbonnellcmc  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenbonnell Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters Episode Transcript   Christina: Today I have the privilege of talking to Karen Bonnell, one of the leading experts in North America on co-parenting. Karen is a registered nurse practitioner, as well as a mediator, divorce coach, and co-parenting coach. She's the author of the widely-read and respected Co-Parents' Handbook, which is recently been republished as The Co-Parenting Handbook. She's passionate about helping parents be the best co-parents they can be. I think you'll find she's incredibly warm and encouraging, and you'll get a lot out of this discussion. Here we go. Christina: Good morning, Karen! Thank you so much for being here with me today. Karen: Christina, it's my pleasure. Christina: I am really thrilled to have you here because I love that your focus is on helping parents focus on the best interest of the children. Why don't you start by telling us a bit about yourself – how you got in the field of divorce, and what exactly is a parent coach? Karen: Wow, OK. Kind of a big question. So, Christina you might already know that I'm a nurse by training, and one of the hallmarks for nurses is really looking at a person's health, a family's health, or community's health holistically. And so my background really set me up for looking at families who are going through transition enormous lies on change, in a very holistic way. Which is to say that in order for a family to be healthy, all members of the family need to be tended to. So as I went through my own two-home family, family restructuring many, many years ago, before co-parent coaching was available,  I realized that without that support, without that education, that understanding, it made that transition much harder than it needed to be. So shortly thereafter, I got involved in a collaborative law community which is where I cut my teeth on divorce coaching, which led me headlong and heart-full into co-parent coaching. So a co-parent coach is someone who walks alongside parents from the moment they realize they may need to separate through their divorce and then hoist their divorce process to ensure that kids are well cared for; they become the strongest, most skilful parents they can be. Even as they come to a close with their intimate partnership. Christina: That makes so much sense. The systemic approach that you've taken and how that transition from nursing happened and make so much sense in this context. Yeah, I agree. You can't have a family functioning well if one or two parts of it are experiencing trauma or just stressed in general. Karen: Well, our floundering in the fear of uncertainty or really encourage to be adversaries in this system wherein the end of the day, we still need a parenting team to raise healthy children. So that whole risk of that litigation model for families is very real. Christina: For sure, and I will be doing an episode specifically on collaborative law, but for listeners who may not have a chance to listen to that particular episode, can you give us just a brief summary of the collaborative law and how you fit into that process? Karen: Oh, sure. So I mostly work as a mediator, Christina, just as you do. But there are times when a family... depending on the complexity of their situation or their emotional needs or just their particular orientation, would prefer to walk through their divorce process with attorneys at their elbows.  And in a collaborative process, those attorneys are there truly as counsel; everybody is in the same room, it's fully transparent, it is a respectful process, not necessarily easy. But respectful process where all parties, all the professional people – the attorneys, the mental health professionals, like the coach, the financial neutrals sort of circle the wagons for the couple as they figure out their property settlement, as they come to decisions about how to raise their children in two homes. So it's a non-adversarial process that just ups the support from what might otherwise just be mediation. Christina: OK, and within that process, you're broaden as an expert to help with the co-parenting pace, and help them workout the logistics and communication around that? Karen: Correct. Typically, helping them go through their parenting plan worksheet and preparation for creating their state-mandated parenting, you know, contract – their parenting form. And I'm also typically helping them prepare for their financial meetings, really helping them unpack difficult emotions. So that when they walk into those business meetings, they can do that with a strong mind and a calmed heart. So, kinda both of those worlds in a collaborative process. Christina: OK, interesting! And so what are the issues that you encourage people to think about right upfront? What are the types of things that you would address at the very beginning? Karen: Right at the very beginning, I work with parents to bring their children into the room. One of the conversations that I know I can engage parents around is “Tell me about your children”. And I ask them specifically, “Tell me about being a parent to your child,” “So, what it's like to be a mom to Lucien?” “What is it like to be a dad for Michaela?” Depending on the configuration of the families, by the way of two moms, two dads, or a mom and a dad. And that way, I can really help them anchor, and I tell them specifically, everything we do from this moment forward is in the service of those little beings that I know are the center of your heart. And that includes how you learn to treat each other, how you bring this relationship – this intimate partnership or a marriage to a close. And how you renegotiate and strengthen; how you'll be a parenting team “until death do you part”? Christina: And a lot of parents I find it takes them a while to acknowledge that there will be that ongoing relationship. It seems to me quite difficult for a lot of people to wrap up the intimate relationship. But at the same time acknowledge that they really do need to work on having that constructive parenting relationship for the sake of their children. Karen: That's exactly right, and part of their resistance is often oriented around feeling forced to move too quickly into, what we might call friends as parents. And I'm very, very clear with intimate partners who are emotionally distraught, bereft, hurt, betrayed – that they may never be friends with their co-parent. And I don't need them to be friends. I need them to be respectful, and I need them to be civil and that will take time to find their way through their grief, through their hurt, through their pain. That will then allow them to be those things. In the meantime, what I want them to do is respectfully to separate. So less is more in this situation. Less communication, less back and forth, things that do need to be talked about haven't talked about in a guided setting, in a facilitated setting. Where someone can help manage the trauma, so that we're not re-traumatizing very, very tender hearts, very, very hurt people. Right? So our first step is how do we really separate so we can heal, grieve what we need to grieve – what we lost. So that we can begin to form a future where we can parent our children. Christina: Now, what will you say are your top tips that parents should really have at the forefront of their minds – specific tip? So being respectful is absolutely key. I'm thinking more tactical or strategic tips that will help them move towards a successful co-parenting plan. Karen: Step one: Choose your professionals – the people who are going to support you through your separation and your divorce. Choose professionals who are going to support you as a member of a family that's in transition. In other words, your allies don't need to champion you in this, on your co-parent. We don't need to feed that adversarial energy, OK. So choose professionals who can hold your pain while at the same time not pouring gasoline on a fire. Okay? Number one. Number two: Self-care. Self-care. Can I underline that enough? I want you to make sure you're sleeping. Please cut back on your alcohol use. Try an exercise everyday. Do what you can to be a good enough parent. Don't worry about falling apart from time to time. There are so many strong emotions that go with the losses of an intimate partnership and these changes in the family. We gotta be gentle with ourselves. So allow for that healing process. Know that there's gonna be grief. Try not to fight it. Try and work with it. OK? So that's number two. Choose your professionals wisely, do your self-care, acknowledge that there's grief. Right? The third piece, the third step is as your nervous system begins to settle down, then it's time to educate yourself about what it would mean to be co-parent. “How would I do that?” “How do I show up at curriculum night in two weeks when I know my other parent, you know my children's other parent, is gonna be there as well?” “How do I do that?” “Very practical. I can walk in the room, here's how I'll choose my seat, here's how I'll greet my co-parent, and then I'll step away.” So just recognizing that there are literally steps for how to do this that will help you heal, while simultaneously help you move forward. Christina: And I'd like to pick up on some of the terms that you used there. So you mentioned “other parent” and “my co-parent” – I'm curious, are those the words that you recommend people use to refer to each other? Using the term 'ex' which is so common in our culture is so negative. That has so many negative connotations attached to it. What are the terms that you recommend or that you find people use that sit well into.. that doesn't feel awkward? Karen: Right. So one of the first things I teach my parents who come into the office is that we're gonna begin a very active process of separating their husband-wife relationship, their spousal relationship, their intimate partnership, from their parenting. And the language that we choose really helps with that separation. You know, what we talk about is ending here is an intimate partnership, a marriage. What's not ending is that two people who became parents seven years ago, six months ago – whenever that occurred – eighteen years ago. And so I wanna help them get clearer and clearer about what are we closing up, what are we ending, what are we grieving? And what are we actually still engaged in? So I do ask my co-parent teams, don't use the term ex. How about, if you wanna identify your former spouse, how about former partner, former spouse? How about, you know sometimes we joke about 'wasbands'. But terms that are, are more endearing and less pejorative. Then some of the other terms, you know, jerk for example. Let's not use “I'm not co-parenting with a jerk”. “I'm co-parenting with my children's mother or father.” I also encourage them to reclaim just terms 'mom' and 'dad'. How many times did children of parents who are divorcing start to hear instead of “Go ask your dad” or “Go ask your mommy”, “Go ask your father” – with a  big 'your' in front of it. As if I've de-zoned that relationship, and that puts you over in a 'that' category; in “another camp”.  “Your father”, “Your mother”. And so parents actually practice that. What is it like to say “OK, when you're at home with dad...” as opposed to “When you are at your father's house...” Notice that it's not just my intonation, but my word choices that are gonna impact children. So, we start to practice. It's awkward, it's new, it's not what people do in the culture. But you know, we're helping parents reframe what their children's experiences which, over time, is much more enriching than feeling like they live in a divided home. Christina: It's amazing what a big change just one word can make. I actually hadn't heard that before and that's really eye-opening. My concept of 'dad' rather than 'your dad'. Even if you say it in a nice tone. Karen: Right. Christina: And so, what is your process for working with clients? Karen: Well, they know how to get to me... most people email and say, you know, 'we made a decision to separate, we'd like to meet with you'. They come in, we spend an introductory session just to make sure that they are clear about my process and that there's a good match – there's still a chemistry. I don't care who you are or how expert you might be. There's still chemistry you need to work with people that you feel comfortable with and feel like I can provide a trusting environment. Then we do many of the things that we've just talked about. You know, they introduce me to their children, they often bring pictures. I begin to lay the groundwork for separating, the intimate partnership from their parenting pair, their parenting team relationship. And depending on their readiness, we actually begin to talk about things like, “So if you're still living in the same home, when do you intend  to make that a two-home family?” “How do you imagine you might share your children?” So this is my language – share your children across two homes. “What are the skills you think you might need to keep their lives integrated and problem solved on their behalf?” That is part of what we'll be working through. I actually use a worksheet, it's available in the Parenting Plan Workbook, where parents talk about with each other the different options and 'why you might choose this one versus that one?', and ''how might we do the holidays in this first year too, but in yours three and beyond?' That might look quite different. So all of these is part of the psycho-education about how families adjust to a change of this magnitude. Christina: Now do you ever come across situations where one parent is interested in working with you and figuring out how to structure a positive co-parenting relationship, but the other spouse doesn't wish to participate? And if so, are you able to work with just one? Or how... do you have ways of trying to get the other parent interested in participating? Karen: Yes, I do. So just recently, I had a co-parent let me know that her co-parent's attorney didn't want her to see me. And so in that case, I ask if there was any chance that both of the attorneys – mom's attorney and dad's attorney –  will get on the phone with me just to talk about... My thought was that dad's attorney was uncertain or just simply didn't know what went on in my office. And so that would be one trick of the trade. The other is I usually can get a parent who wants to work with me to hook their other parent in by saying “Hey, she'll talk to you for free, give her a call, you can email her, here's her website, she'd be happy to give you a copy of her book, if you wanna contact her.” Like there are just things that I'll do to kind of say, Give me a chance. Just give me a minute, you don't have to work with me. Just come once. I mean that's my really big deal. Just come once. I don't need you to ever agree that you're gonna come back or that your'e gonna mediate your parenting plan with me. That's not important. But my experience is if I get them to come in once and find that out that it's actually safe, that's it's really about their kids, about that I really am neutral in terms of... You know I think sometimes dads are still afraid that working with a woman that I'll be biased toward a mom. And the fact is I have a very strong bias and I tell both parents that with these children need both their parents. And that what we know in terms of outcomes is that kids do better physically and emotionally when they have a strong and engaged relationship with both parents. It's not a competition about who's the better parent. Kids just need two good enough parents. That's what kids need. Christina: And parents must see once they go to that first meeting, they must see the immense value just right off the bat. I'm sure most people, once they realize what it's all about they go, “Oh, OK. I can see that this is gonna be really great for my kids going forward.” Karen: You know, there's a huge relief. Sometimes I have to slow down. Your listeners might not know, but I live in the Silicon Valley of the North. You know I live in the backyard of Microsoft and Amazon. And so sometimes my software engineers simply just need to be slowed down. They're all about efficiency and bullet points and box checking, and I sometimes need to spend a little time to say, “You know this is probably the most important contract that you will ever design. And you'll be living with it for, you know, however many years until their children are through college and although the contract expires in high school, at the end of high school, I really support my co-parents to really live inside a parenting plan structure until their kids are into adulthood, for their sake. So they don't fall into feelings of 'How can I meet both of my parents needs now that I'm in college?'. So sometimes it's about slowing dad down or mom down. Efficiency is really important – I know your time is extremely valuable, and just above your kids. And we're gonna find your way through it in the most efficient way possible with no corners cut. Because they deserve that. Most of the time I can get them to settle down. Christina: You've of course written the very popular book in the field, The Co-Parent's Handbook. And I see that you're now writing a new book about dating after divorce. So I'm wondering what advice do you have for parents on that topic? Karen: The new book will be out in the Spring, hopefully, that's the plan. It's called the Step-Family Handbook, and it's everything from first dates, as co-parents, to creating a step-family. And it's very, very important; a data point that most parents don't know is that the adjustment to step-family for children is actually more difficult than the divorce. And so as much as parents worry about their children during the divorce process, I really want them to understand that the transition to step-family is also an enormous, enormous adjustment. And although we, as parents, are often just so thrilled, so happy, so relieved, to be in love again, to have found a partner that's gonna walk forward with us – that's not necessarily our children's experience. And so recognizing the fears and trepidations that kids have really help guide how we introduce a new adult into their lives right from the beginning. So, that's what the new book will be about is that walk in that journey and how it skillfully pace, allowing children to recognize that we're now dating, that... what dating means, who this person is, how to build a relationship with the new adult who's not a parent? And who may be around our household in a parent-like capacity? Those are all skills and as a parent and a potentially soon-to-be-stepparent, learning that architecture and how it works is really important. Christina: Well thank you, Karen so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. What would be the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you? Karen: The best way is by email. Just go to the website, which is coachmediatecounsult.com. There's a, you know, way to email me directly to my email address or through the website itself. Of course my phone number, I'm here in the States. People are welcome to call as well, email is a little easier. And you can follow me on Facebook and Twitter, and you know, Pinterest. So there's lots and lots of ways and I invite people to connect in any way that makes sense for them. Christina: OK, perfect! Well, Karen, thank you again for today and for all the really important work that you're doing for families. Karen: You're welcome. Thanks so much, Christina, for having me. It's really been my pleasure.

In this introductory episode, Christina sets the stage for the upcoming series designed to assist families with navigating a healthy separation and divorce process. Christina Vinters is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Links Free download of Pathways to Amicable Divorce (no email required): https://www.modernseparations.com/separation Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters Christina's Other Podcast Interviews Referred to in this episode: The Happy Lawyer Project Podcast, with Okeoma Moronu - Episode HLP029: On Launching a Solo Practice in Six Weeks with Christina Vinters, Modern Separations. Released April 11, 2017 Women Taking the Lead, with Jodi Flynn - Episode 232: Christina Vinters on What’s Possible When You Shed Self-Limiting Beliefs. Released September 11, 2017 Episode Transcript Welcome to the Divorce Well Podcast. This is the first episode and I'm so happy that you're joining me. In this podcast series,  I'll be diving into information that will help you deal with the various types of issues that arise upon the separation including emotional,  legal, financial, and parenting. There will be a few episodes where I'm sharing information directly with you on specific topics, and the rest of the episodes will be me interviewing renowned experts from across North America about various aspects of the divorce process. I'll start by briefly introducing myself. I'm Christina Vinters, I'm now a family mediator. I founded my mediation firm Modern Separations just over a year ago, after having practiced law as a divorce lawyer for several years. I've talked about my career transition in detail on the Happy Lawyer Project podcast, as well as on Women Taking the Lead. If you're interested in hearing my full story, check out those podcasts. In the last year and a half, I've also written and published two books, related to helping people go through the separation and divorce process more smoothly. Today I'm gonna be talking about the culture of divorce – the assumptions that a lot of us bring to the divorce process, and the impact that our mindset has on the outcome of our process. If we look at some statistics, we'll see that separation among intimate couples is very, very common in North America. It is estimated that about 40% of marriages in Canada end in divorce, which is about 70,000 divorces per year. And this does not include the breakdown of common law relationships. So the actual percentage and number of families experiencing separation is even higher. In the United States, about 50% of first time cohabiting relationships end within 5 years; 20% of first marriages end within 5 years; and 33% end within 10 years. This is approximately 1 million divorces per year, plus separations of common law couples. I'm not going to get into why this is happening but clearly this is a common phenomenon that families are dealing with. It is a mere certainty that you have relatives, friends, neighbors, and co-workers who've had experienced separation, and indeed you may have as well. Divorce is often referred to as the second most traumatic event in a person's life, only after the death of a close family member. In my experience and from the research that I've done, the reason for this trauma is not the separation itself, but the extreme animosity that develops through the use of the adversarial legal system. Both Canada and the United States have adversarial legal systems, and this is a system in which one side is pitted against the other side as opposing parties. And they each advocate fiercely for their own position, trying to win the favor of the judge. It's specifically setup as a win-lose scenario. The theory is this is the best possible system to allow the judge to get at the truth of the situation and the fact is that it is well-suited  to bringing transparency and justice to many types of cases. For example, when an injured person sues another driver after a car accident, or a patient who sues a doctor for malpractice. In these cases, those two parties don't ever have to deal with each other again, or maybe not even see each other again. Family law is quite different. Couples without children may share a circle of friends and may have to continue seeing each other, on and off in the future. Of course couples who share children will have to be in each other's lives for the rest of their lives as their children grow and have their own children there will be weddings and grandchildren's birthday parties to attend. In the short term, they'll have to continue cooperating over financial and parenting matters. So the system in which one person tries to win by destroying the other person's case, is extremely destructive for families. In addition, litigation feels profoundly stressful and intensely personal, as much of the evidence goes to the core of who are they as people?. What kind of parent are you? What have you done with your life? How have you contributed to the marriage? Is your love for wine an indication some kind of a concerning problem? Do your life choices raise questions about whether you have your child's best interests at heart? These types of questions are sampling of the types of questions that can occur, with respective various different issues in family law. This is where those horror stories come from that you heard of. Each person attempts to portray a picture of himself or herself as being a model citizen, model spouse, model parent. Well at the same time, throwing the other party completely under the bus. This process is reflected in our culture, and in various movies, various comics, various jokes. For example, the War of the Roses starring Michael Douglas, Kathleen Turner and Danny DeVito is a “comedy” about a separating couple who viciously come after each other, to the point of attempted murder as they each try to win the house in their divorce. The great Robin Williams had a bit about divorce, which was repeated and circulated for years. He said, “Ah, divorce! From the Latin word meaning to rip a man's wallet out through his genitals.” And probably the most cited divorce joke is “Why are divorces so expensive? Because they're worth it!”. And this of course implies a long drawn out court battle and it implies a dreadful ex. We've carried over that adversarial approach of destroying the other party into our culture and really gotten into the habit of assuming the worst villifying and dehumanizing the former partner. All of these incredibly negative associations and feelings embedded in our culture can't help but influence your perceptions, unless you're mindful to frame your understanding of your separation differently. It is possible to have a healthy divorce. It is possible to reach a fair financial settlement with going the court. It is possible to have a reasonable and functional relationship with your co-parent. Does it take work? Yes. Does it take cooperation from both of you? Yes it does. Do you have to be friends or like each other? No, definitely not. But what you do need is  to recognize that it's the conflict around the separation which is harmful for both you and your children, not the separation itself. Studies have shown that high conflict between parents during and after separation can be traumatic for children and can actually result in poor development and behavioral outcomes for them. Some of the concerning effects on children of a high conflict separation may include experiencing impaired relationships with peers, depression, anxiety, and developing negative attention seeking behaviors, just to name a few. And what do I mean when I say high conflict? High conflict may involve yelling, it may also involve just refusing to speak to each other. It could involve name calling, or bad mouthing the other parents to the child or in front of the child, failing to cooperate about the parenting schedule – it can encompass all sorts of small and large transgressions. Children feel very deeply and they perceive more than parents realize. My belief is that the statistically-predictable restructuring of families through separation shouldn't be routinely managed in ways that routinely traumatize both parents and children. Separating couples need information about and access to non-adversarial dispute resolution mechanisms. In this podcast series, I'll be providing information about a number of different types of supports that parents can access, to help them shift their mindset rather than fear-based mindset. Non-adversarial options including mediation, which is what I do. Mediation is where a neutral mediator meets with both parties to help facilitate the discussion, provide family law information, and help them come up with solutions to that will meet both of their needs and the needs of the children, if there are any. For people who need a greater level of support, there's collaborative law, which is also a non-adversarial process. In this process, each party retains a collaboratively trained lawyer, but the lawyers and the clients all work together as a team to come up with solutions that are appropriate for the whole family. Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you're notified when each of these new interviews is released. I'll be interviewing experts on all of these different areas, and we'll be diving into lots of detail on each individual topic. One of the challenges people have is that the stories they hear from friends and family about their separation and divorce often involves court. The court process, which in North America is the adversarial system, is the default process. It's the process that people have been using for decades for family law, and so this is what's brings to mind of people first. If you have not yet started down that process, I strongly recommend that you talk to either a mediator or a collaborative lawyer to get information about your next steps. People find it very difficult to start down that court process in which they're putting each other down, to then shift into a cooperative process, listening to each other and coming to a solution that meets both of their needs. Once that trust is broken, it's very difficult to go back. So for those of you at the beginning of your process, please know that separation does not have to be nasty and ridiculously expensive. Shift how you think about divorce, if you do have those negative assumptions that are rampant in our culture rather than thinking of divorce as a combat – as a battle at the cost of the family. Try to think about divorce as a respectful restructuring for the benefit of the family. You're moving from a one-home family  to a two-home family. De-escalating conflict must be the priority in order to try to do no harm to yourself, your partner, or your children. I believe that having an amicable divorce involves both of you agreeing to participate in a non-adversarial process. It involves disagreeing, it certainly might. But it involves disagreeing without being disagreeable. And I think that it must involve a fair outcome. I think that if one person is just completely bending to the demands of the other, so as to avoid a conflict, it would be hard to call that amicable. An agreement should take into account your history, your circumstances, both past and present. Families are so different – the context of your particular family is going to determine what is fair in your particular circumstance. So you really can't compare to what happened to your sister, what happened to your neighbor – it needs to be an individualized approach. We're hearing more and more positive stories though these days. Example of co-parents purchasing houses next door to each other so that their children could go freely go back and forth. Or co-parents having a family dinner night once per month, to help the children feel a sense of continuity of the family, even though it's been restructured. Some of these types of stories may strike you as strange or comfortable. But I encourage you to look at your assumptions. The assumptions you're bringing to these opinions and why it is that these images of positive co-parenting relationship are causing cognitive dissonance. If you're still listening, I'm going to assume that it's important for you to be able to achieve a smooth and respectful separation. And that you believe that that will be to your benefit and if you have children that that will be to their benefit as well. So I'm going to encourage you to stay focused on your values of achieving an amicable divorce. This is a commitment that you're going to need to make and you're going to need to make it over and over again. What I mean by that is that there are countless situations in day to day life where you can either choose to take the high road or not. I see people frequently making decisions with respect to their separation that slowly chips away at the trust between them and their partner. They let their anger, impatience, jealously, grief take over their better judgment and take actions which slowly corrode their ability to communicate effectively with each other. Snarky comments are made, emails go unanswered, personal properties are taken without consent, maybe children are dropped off a little later than agreed. Each of these is perhaps small and meaningless on its own. But when these types of transgressions continue to happen, they chip away at any remaining trust and goodwill in the relationship. They breed fear, suspicion, and anxiety, making an amicable divorce less and less likely over time. With each poor decision, you move further away from your target of having a respectful and efficient divorce. We all have bad days. The good news is, that you can make a concerted effort though to get back on track. You can be polite, you can be proactive. You can be respectful, honest, cooperative, going forward. No matter what you've chosen to do in the past, and no matter how the other person is treating you, you are always in control of how you respond. So I want to provide you the hope that you can make a decision about how you want to treat your spouse. The tone in which you wish to have communications together, and the level of respect that you bring to the relationship. Good behavior by one person will often create a feeling of goodwill, and the wish to reciprocate by the other person. I suggest that you share this podcast with your spouse. There will be lots of great information in the upcoming episodes about different types of processes and different types of experts who can help you through your separation, and help you achieve the smooth, efficient, respectful separation that you wish to see. Essentially, to help you Divorce Well.