Podcast appearances and mentions of christina so

The Overtired trio reunites for the first time in ages, diving into a whirlwind of health updates, hilarious anecdotes, and the latest tech obsessions. Christina shares a dramatic spinal saga while Brett and Jeff discuss everything from winning reddit contests to creating a universal markdown processor. Tune in for updates on Mark 3, the magical world of Scrivener, and why Brett’s back on Bing. Don’t miss the banter or the tech tips, and as always, get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe feel a little overtired yourself. Sponsor Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast 01:09 Christina’s Health Journey 10:53 Brett’s Insurance Woes 15:38 Jeff’s Mental Health Update 24:07 Sponsor Spot: Shopify 24:18 Sponsor: Shopify 26:23 Jeff Tweedy 27:43 Jeff’s Concert Marathon 32:16 Christina Wins Big 36:58 Monitor Setup Challenges 37:13 Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles 38:33 Review Plans and Honest Assessments 38:59 Current Display Setup 41:30 Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences 42:51 MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons 50:58 Markdown Processor: Apex 01:07:58 Scrivener and Writing Tools 01:11:55 Helium Browser and Privacy Features 01:13:56 Bing Delisting Incident Show Links Danny Brown's 10 in the New York Times (gift link) Indigo Stack Scrivener Helium Bangs Apex Apex Syntax Join the Marked 3 Beta LG 32 Inch UltraFine™evo 6K Nano IPS Black Monitor with Thunderbolt™ 5 Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Brett + 2 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast Jeff: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. This is the Overtired podcast. The three of us are all together for the first time since the Carter administration. Um, it is great to see you both here. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel if I didn’t say that already. Um, and I’m here with Christina Warren and I’m here with Brett Terpstra and hello to both of you. Brett: Hi. Jeff: Great to see you both. Brett: Yeah, it’s good to see you too. I feel like I was really deadpan in the pre-show. I’ll try to liven it up for you. I was a horrible audience. You were cracking jokes and I was just Jeff: that’s true. Christina, before you came on, man, I was hot. I was on fire and Brett was, all Brett was doing was chewing and dropping Popsicle parts. Brett: Yep. I ate, I ate part of a coconut outshine Popsicle off of a concrete floor, but Jeff: It is true, and I didn’t even see him check it [00:01:00] for cat hair, Brett: I did though. Jeff: but I believe he did because he’s a, he’s a very Brett: I just vacuumed in Jeff: He’s a very good American Brett: All right. Christina’s Health Journey Brett: Well, um, I, Christina has a lot of health stuff to share and I wanna save time for that. So let’s kick off the mental health corner. Um, let’s let Christina go first, because if it takes the whole show, it takes the whole show. Go for it. Christina: Uh, I, I will not take this hold show, but thank you. Yeah. So, um, my mental health is okay-ish. Um, I would say the okay-ish part is, is because of things that are happening with my physical health and then some of the medications that I’ve had to be on, um, uh, to deal with it. Uh, prednisone. Fucking sucks, man. Never nev n never take it if you can avoid it. Um, but why Christina, why are you on prednisone or why were you on prednisone for five days? Um, uh, and I’m not anymore to be clear, but that certainly did not help my mental health. Um, at the beginning of November, I woke up and I thought that I’d [00:02:00] slept on my shoulder wrong. And, um, uh, and, and just some, some background. I, I don’t know if this is pertinent to how my injury took place or not, but, but it, I’m sure that it didn’t help. Um, I have scoliosis and in the top and the bottom of my spine, so I have it at the top of my, like, neck area and my lower back. And so my back is like a crooked s um, this will be relevant in a, in a second, but, but I, I thought that I had slept on my back bunny, and I was like, okay, well, all right, it hurts a lot, but fine. Um, and then it, a, a couple of days passed and it didn’t get any better, and then like a week passed and I was at the point where I was like, I almost feel like I need to go to the. Emergency room, I’m in pain. That is that significant. Um, and, you know, didn’t get any better. So I took some of grant’s, Gabapentin, and I took, um, some, some, uh, a few other things and I was able to get in with like a, a, a sports and spine guy. Um, and um, [00:03:00] he looked at me and he was like, yeah, I think that you have like a, a, a bolting disc, also known as a herniated disc. Go to physical therapy. See me later. We’ll, we’ll deal with it. Um. Basically like my whole left side was, was, was really sore and, and I had a lot of pain and then I had numbness in my, my fingers and um, and, and that was a problem the next day, which was actually my birthday. The numbness had at this point spread to my right side and also my lower extremities. And so at this point I called the doctor and he was like, yeah, you should go to the er. And so I went to the ER and, and they weren’t able to do anything for me other than give me, you know, like, um, you know, I was hoping they might give me like, some sort of steroid injection or something. They wouldn’t do anything other than, um, basically, um, they gave me like another type of maybe, maybe pain pill or whatever. Um, but that allowed the doctor to go ahead and. Write, uh, write up an MRI took forever for me to get an MRI, I actually had to get it in Atlanta. [00:04:00] Fun fact, uh, sometimes it is cheaper to just pay and not go through insurance and get an MR MRI and, um, a, um, uh, an x-ray, um, I was able to do it for $450 Jeff: Whoa. Really? Christina: Yeah, $400 for the MR mri. $50 for the x-ray. Jeff: Wow. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: how I, they, I had an MRI, they charged me like $1,200 and then they failed to bill insurance ’cause I was between insurance. Christina: Yes. Yeah. So what happened was, and and honestly that was gonna be the situation that I was in, not between insurance stuff, but they weren’t even gonna bill insurance. And insurance only approved certain facilities and to get into those facilities is almost impossible. Um, and so, no, there are a lot of like get an MR, I now get a, you know, mammogram, get ghetto, whatever places. And because America’s healthcare system is a HealthScape, you can bypass insurance and they will charge you way less than whatever they bill insurance for. So I, I don’t know if it’s part of the country, you know, like Seattle I think might [00:05:00] probably would’ve been more expensive. But yeah, I was able to find this place like a mile from like, not even a mile from where my parents lived, um, that did the x-rays and the MRI for $450 total. Brett: I, I hate, I hate that. That’s true, but Christina: Me too. Me too. No, no. It pisses me off. Honestly, it makes me angry because like, I’m glad that I was able to do that and get it, you know, uh, uh, expedited. Then I go into the spine, um, guy earlier this week and he looks at it and he’s like, yep, you’ve got a massive bulging disc on, on C seven, which is the, the part of your lower cervical or cervical spine, which is your neck. Um, and it’s where it connects to your ver bray. It’s like, you know, there are a few things you can do. You can do, you know, injections, you can do surgery. He is like, I’m gonna recommend you to a neurosurgeon. And I go to the neurosurgeon yesterday and he was showing me or not, uh, yeah, yesterday he was showing me the, the, the, the scans and, and showing like you up close and it’s, yeah, it’s pretty massive. Like where, where, where the disc is like it is. You could see it just from one view, like, just from like [00:06:00] looking at it like, kind of like outside, like you could actually like see like it was visible, but then when you zoomed in it’s like, oh shit, this, this thing is like massive and it’s pressing on these nerves that then go into my, my hands and other areas. But it’s pressing on both sides. It’s primarily on my left side, but it’s pressing on on my right side too, which is not good. So, um, he basically was like, okay. He was like, you know, this could go away. He was like, the pain isn’t really what I’m wanting to, to treat here. It’s, it’s the, the weakness because my, my left arm is incredibly weak. Like when they do like the, the test where like they, they push back on you to see like, okay, like how, how much can you, what, like, I am, I’m almost immediately like, I can’t hold anything back. Right? Like I’m, I’m, I’m like a toddler in terms of my strength. So, and, and then I’m freaked out because I don’t have a lot of feeling in my hands and, and that’s terrifying. Um, I’m also. Jeff: so terrifying, Christina: I’m, I’m also like in extreme pain because of, of, of where this sits. Like I can’t sleep well. Like [00:07:00] the whole thing sucks. Like the MRI, which was was like the most painful, like 25 minutes, like of my existence. ’cause I was laying flat on my back. I’m not allowed to move and I’m just like, I’m in just incredible pain with that part of, of, of, of my, my side. Like, it, it was. It was terrible. Um, but, uh, but he was like, yeah. Um, these are the sorts of surgical options we have. Um, he’s gonna, um, do basically what what he wants to do is basically do a thing where he would put in a, um, an artificial or, or synthetic disc. So they’re gonna remove the disc, put in a synthetic one. They’ll go in through the, the front of my throat to access the, my, my, my, my spine. Um, put that there and, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll be overnight in the hospital. Um, and then it’ll be a few weeks of recovery and the, the, the pain should go away immediately. Um, but it, it could be up to two years before I get full, you know, feeling back in my arm. So anyway, Jeff: years, Jesus. And Christina: I mean, and hopefully less than that, but, but it could be [00:08:00] up to that. Jeff: there’s no part of this at this point. That’s a mystery to you, right? Christina: The mystery is, I don’t know how this happened. Jeff: You don’t know how it happened, right? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Brett: So tell, tell us about the ghastly surgery. The, the throat thing really threw me like, I can’t imagine that Christina: yeah, yeah. So, well, ’cause the thing is, is that usually if what they just do, like spinal fusion, they’ll go in at the back of your neck, um, and then they’ll remove the, the, um, the, the, the, the disc. And then they’ll fuse your, your, your two bones together. Basically. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll fuse this part of the vertebrae, but because they’re going to be replacing the, the disc, they need more room. So that’s why they have to go in through the, through, through basically your throat so that they can have more room to work. Jeff: Good lord. No thank you. Brett: Ugh. Wow. Jeff: Okay. Brett: I am really sorry that is happening. That is, that is, that dwarfs my health concerns. That is just constant pain [00:09:00] and, and it would be really scary. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not great. It’s not great, but I’m, I’m, I’m doing what I can and, uh, like I have, you know, a small amount of, of Oxycodine and I have like a, a, a, you know, some other pain medication and I’m taking the gabapentin and like, that’s helpful. The bad part is like your body, like every 12, 15 hours, like whatever, like the, the, the cycle is like, you feel it leave your system and like if you’re asleep, you wake up, right? Like, it’s one of those things, like, you immediately feel it, like when it leaves your system. And I’ve never had to do anything for pain management before. And they have me on a very, they have me like on the smallest amount of like, oxycodone you can be on. Um, and I’m using it sparingly because I don’t wanna, you know, be reliant on, on it or whatever. But it, it, but it is one of those things where I’m like, yeah, like sometimes you need fucking opiates because, you know, the pain is like so constant. And the thing is like, what sucks is that it’s not always the same type of pain. Like sometimes it’s throbbing, sometimes it’s sharp, sometimes it’s like whatever. It sucks. But the hardest thing [00:10:00] is like, and. This does impact my mental health. Like it’s hard to sleep. Like, and I’m a side sleeper. I’m a side sleeper, and I’m gonna have to become a back sleeper. So, you know. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, it’s not great. It’s not great, but, you know, that, that, that, that, that’s me. The, the good news is, and I’m very, very gratified, like I have a good surgeon. Um, I’m gonna be able to get in to get this done relatively quickly. He had an appointment for next week. I don’t think that insurance would’ve even been able to approve things fast enough for, for, for that regard. And I have, um, commitments that I can’t make then. And I, and that would also mean that I wouldn’t be able to go visit my family for Christmas. So hopefully I’ll do it right after Christmas. I’m just gonna wait, you know, for, for insurance to, to do its thing, knock on wood, and then schedule, um, from there. But yeah, Jeff: Woof. Christina: so that’s me. Um, uh, who wants to go next? Jeff or, uh, Jeff or Brett? Jeff: It’s like, that’s me. Hot potato throwing it. Brett: I’ll, I’ll go. Brett’s Insurance Woes Brett: I can continue on the insurance topic. Um, I was, for a few months [00:11:00] after getting laid off, I was on Minsu, which is Minnesota’s Medicaid, um, v version of Medicaid. And so basically I paid nothing and I had better insurance than I usually have with, uh, you know, a full deductible and premiums and everything. And it was fantastic. I was getting all the care I needed for all of the health stuff I’m going through. Um, I, they, a, a new doctor I found, ordered the 15 tests and I passed out ’cause it was so much blood and. And it, I was getting, but I was getting all these tests run. I was getting results, we were discovering things. And then my unemployment checks, the income from unemployment went like $300 over the cap for Medicaid. So [00:12:00] all of a sudden, overnight I was cut from Medicaid and I had to do an early sign up, and now I’m on courts and it sucks bad. Like they’re not covering my meds. Last month cost me $600. I was also paying. In addition to that, a $300 premium plus every doctor’s visit is 50 bucks out of pocket. So this will hopefully only last until January, and then it’ll flip over and I will be able to demonstrate basically no income, um, until like Mark makes enough money that it gets reported. Um, and even, uh, until then, like I literally am making under the, the poverty limit. So, um, I hope to be back on Medicaid shortly. I have one more month. I’ll have to pay my $600 to refill. I [00:13:00] cashed out my 401k. Um, like things were, everything was up high enough that I had made, I. I had made tens of thousands of dollars just on the investments and the 401k, but I also have a lot of concerns about the market volatility around Nvidia and the AI bubble in general. Um, so taking my money out of the market just felt okay to me. I paid the 10%, uh, penalty Jeff: Mm-hmm. Brett: and ultimately I, I came out with enough cash that I can invest on my own and be able to cover the next six months. Uh, if I don’t have any other income, which I hope to, I hope to not spend my nest egg. Um, but I did, I did a lot of thinking and calculating and I think I made the right choices. But anyway, [00:14:00] that will help if I have to pay for medical stuff that will help. Um. And then I’ve had insomnia, bad on and off. Right now I’m coming off of two days of good sleep. You’re catching me on a good day. Um, but Jeff: Still wouldn’t laugh at my jokes. Brett: before that it was, well, that’s the thing is like before that, it was four nights where I slept two to four hours per night, and by the end of it, I could barely walk. And so two nights of sleep after a stint like that, like, I’m just super, I’m deadpan, I’m dazed. Um, I could lay down and fall asleep at any time. Um, I, so, so keep me awake. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s me. Mental health is good. Like I’m in pretty high spirits considering all this, like financial stuff and everything. Like my mood has been pretty stable. I’ve been getting a lot of coding done. I’ll tell you about projects in [00:15:00] a minute, but, um, but that’s, that’s me. I’m done. Jeff: Awesome. I’m enjoying watching your cat roll around, but clearly cannot decide to lay down at this point. Brett: No, nobody is very persnickety. Jeff: I literally have to put my. Well, you say put a cat down like you used to. When you put a kid down for a nap, you say you wanna put ’em down. Right? That’s where it’s coming from. I now have a chair next to my desk, ’cause I have one cat that walks around Yowling at about 11:00 AM while I’m working. And I have to like, put ’em down for a nap. It’s pathetic. It’s pathetic that I do that. Let’s just be clear. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: soulmate though. Jeff’s Mental Health Update Jeff: Um, I’m doing good. I’m, I’m, I’ve been feeling kind of light lately in a nice way. I’ve had ups and downs, but even with the ups and downs, there’s like a, except for one day last week was, there’s just been feeling kind of good in general, which is remarkable in a way. ’cause it’s just like stressful time. There’s some stressful business stuff, like, [00:16:00] a lot of stuff like that. But I’m feeling good and, and just like, uh, yeah, just light. I don’t know, it’s weird. Like, I’ve just been noticing that I feel kind of light and, uh. And not, not manic, not high light. Brett: Yeah. No, that’s Jeff: uh, and that’s, that’s lovely. So yeah. And so I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I fucking, it’s cold. Which sucks ’cause it just means for everybody that’s heard about my workshop over the years, that I can’t really go out there and have it be pleasant Brett: It’s, it’s been Minnesota thus far. Has had, we’ve had like one, one Sub-Zero day. Jeff: whatever. It’s fucking cold. Christina: Yeah. What one? Brett? Brett. It’s December 6th as we’re recording this one Sub-Zero day. That’s insane. Brett: Is it Jeff: Granted, granted I’ve been dressing warm, so I’m ready to go out the door for ice related things. Meaning, meaning government, ice, Brett: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Jeff: So I like wear my long underwear during [00:17:00] the day. ’cause actually like recently. So at my son’s school, which is like six blocks from here, um, has a lot of Somali immigrants in it. And, and uh, and there was a, at one point there was ice activity in the other direction, um, uh, uh, near me. And so neighbors put out a call here around so that at dismissal time people would pair up at all the intersections surrounding the school. And, um, and like a quick signal group popped up, whatever. It was so amazing because like we all just popped out there. And by the time I got out, uh, everyone was already like, posted up and I was like, I’m a, in these situations, I am a wanderer. You want me roaming? I don’t want to pair up with somebody I don’t like, I just, I grabbed a camera with a Zoom on it and like, I was like, I’m in roam. Um, it’s what I was as an activist, what I was as a reporter, like it’s just my nature. Um, but like. Everybody was out and like, and they were just like, they were ready man. And then we got like the all clear and you could just see people in the [00:18:00] neighborhood just like standing down and going home. But because of the true threat and the ongoing arrests here, now that the Minneapolis stuff has started, like I do, I was like wearing long underwear just, and I have a little bag by the door ready to like pop out if something comes up and I can be helpful. Um, and uh, and I guess what I’m saying is I should use that to go into the garage as well if I’m already prepared. Brett: Right. Jeff: But here’s, okay, so here’s a mental health thing actually. So I, one of the, I’ve gone through a few years of just sort of a little bit of paralysis around being able to just, I don’t know what, like do anything that is kind of project related that takes some thinking, whatever it is, like I’m talking about around the house or things that have kind of broken over the years, whatever. So I’ve had this snowblower and it’s a really good snowblower. It’s got headlights. And, uh, and I used to love snow blowing the entire block. Like it just made me feel good, made me feel useful. Um, and sorry I cough. I left it outside for a [00:19:00] year for a, like a winter and a spring and water got into the gas tank. It rusted out in there. I knew I couldn’t start it or I’d ruin the whole damn engine. So I left it for two years and I felt bad about myself. But this year, just like probably a month before the first big snowfall, I fucking replaced a gas tank and a carburetor on a machine. And I have never done anything like that in my life. And so then we got the snowfall and I, and I snow blowed this whole block Brett: Nice. Jeff: great. ’cause now they all owe me. Brett: I, uh, I have a, uh, so I have a little electric powered, uh, snowblower that can handle like two inches of snow. Um, and, and on big snowfalls, if you get out there every hour and keep up with it, it, it works. But, but I, my back right now, I can’t stand for, I can’t stand still for 10 minutes and I can’t move for more than like five minutes. And so I’m, I’m very disabled and El has good days and bad days, uh, thus [00:20:00] far. L’s been out there with a shovel, um, really being the hero. But we have a next door neighbor with a big gas powered snowblower. And so we went over, brought them gifts, and, um, asked if they would take care of our driveway on days we couldn’t, uh, for like, you know, we’d pay ’em 25 bucks to do the driveway. And, uh, and they were, he was still reluctant to accept money. Um. But, but we both agreed it was better to like make it a, a transaction. Jeff: Oh my God. You don’t want to get into weird Minnesota neighbor relational. Brett: right. You don’t want the you owe me thing. Um, so, so we have that set up. But in the process we made really good friends with our neighbor. Like we sat down in their living room for I think 45 minutes and just like talked about health and politics and it was, it was really fun. They’re, they’re retired. They’re in their [00:21:00] seventies and like act, he always looks super grumpy. I always thought he was a mean old man. He’s actually, he laughs more easily than most people I’ve ever met. Um, he’s actually, when people say, oh, he is actually a teddy bear, this guy really is, he’s just jovial. Uh, he just has resting angry old man face. Jeff: Or like my, I have public mis throat face, like when I’m out and about, especially when I’m shopping, I know that my face is, I’m gonna fucking kill you if you look me in the eye Brett: I used Jeff: is not my general disposition. Brett: people used to tell me that about myself, but I feel like I, I carry myself differently these days than I did when I was younger. Jeff: You know what I learned? Do you, have you both watched Veep, Christina: Yes, Jeff: you know, Richard sp split, right? Um, and, and he always kind of has this sweet like half smile and he is kind of looking up and I, I figured out at one point I was in an airport, which is where my kill everybody face especially comes up. Just to be clear. TSA, it’s just a feeling inside. I [00:22:00] have no desire to act to this out. I realized that if I make the Richard Plet face, which I can try to make for you now, which is something like if I just make the Richard Plet face, my whole disposition Brett: yeah. Yeah. Jeff: uh, and I even feel a little better. And so I just wanna recommend that to people. Look up Richard Spt, look at his face. Christina: Hey, future President Bridges split. Jeff: future President Richard Splat, also excellent in the Detroiters. Um, that’s all, uh, that’s all I wanted to say about that. Brett: I have found that like when I’m texting with someone, if I start to get frustrated, you know, you know that point where you’re still adding smiley emoticons even though you’re actually not, you’re actually getting pissed off, but you don’t wanna sound super bitchy about it, so you’re adding smile. I have found that when I add a smiley emoji in those circumstances, if I actually smile before I send it, it like my [00:23:00] mood will adjust to match, to match the tone I’m trying to convey, and it lessens my frustration with the other person. Jeff: a little joy wrist rocket. Christina: Yeah. Hey, I mean, no, but hey, but, but that, that, that, that, that’s interesting. I mean, they’re, they, they’ve done studies that like show that, right? That like show like, you know, I mean, like, some of this is all like bullshit to a certain extent, but there is something to be said for like, you know, like the power of like positive thinking and like, you know, if you go into things with like, different types of attitudes or even like, even if you like, go into job interviews or other situations, like you act confident or you smile, or you act happy or whatever. Even if you’re not like it, the, the, the, the euphoria, you know, that those sorts of uh, um, endorphin reactions or whatever can be real. So that’s interesting. Brett: Yeah, I found, I found going into job interviews with my usual sarcastic and bitter, um, kind of mindset, Jeff: I already hate this job. Brett: it doesn’t play well. It doesn’t play well. So what are your weaknesses? Fuck off. Um,[00:24:00] Christina: right. Well, well, well, I hate people. Jeff: Yeah. Dealing with motherfuckers like you, that’s one weakness. Sponsor Spot: Shopify Brett: let’s, uh, let’s do a sponsor spot and then I want to hear about Christina winning a contest. Christina: yes. Jeff: very Brett: wanna, you wanna take it away? Sponsor: Shopify Jeff: I will, um, our sponsor this week is Shopify. Um, have you ever, have you just been dreaming of owning your own business? Is that why you can’t sleep? In addition to having something to sell, you need a website. And I’ll tell you what, that’s been true for a long time. You need a payment system, you need a logo, you need a way to advertise new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that is where today’s sponsor, Shopify comes in. shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use [00:25:00] templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand’s style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. If you’re ready to sell, you are ready to Shopify. Turn your Big Business Idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today@shopify.com slash Overtired. Go to shopify.com/ Overtired. What was that? Say it with me. shopify.com/ Overtired [00:26:00] cha. Uh, Brett: the, uh, the group, the group input on the last URL, I feel like we can charge extra for that. That was Jeff: Yeah. Cha-ching Brett: they got the chorus, they got the Overtired Christina: You did. You got the Overtired Jeff: They didn’t think to ask for it, but that’s our brand. Christina: shopify.com/ Overtired. Jeff Tweedy Jeff: What was, uh, I was watching a Stephen Colbert interview with Jeff Tweedy, who just put out a triple album and, uh, it was a very thoughtful, sweet interview. And then Stephen Colbert said, you know, you’re not supposed to do this. And Jeff Tweety said, it’s all part of my career long effort to leave the public wanting less. Christina: Ha, Jeff: That was a great bit. Christina: that’s a fantastic bit. A side note, there are a couple of really good NPR, um, uh, tiny desks that have come out in the last couple of month, uh, couple of weeks. Um, uh, one is shockingly, I, I’ll, I’ll just be a a, a fucking boomer about it. The Googo dolls. Theirs was [00:27:00] great. It’s fantastic. They did a great job. It already has like millions of views, like it wrecked up like over a million views, I think like in like, like less than 24 hours. They did a great job, but, uh, but Brandy Carlisle, uh, did one, um, the other day and hers is really, really good too. So, um, so yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Anyway, you said, you saying Jeff pd maybe, I don’t know how I got from Wilco to like, you know, there, Jeff: Yeah. Well, they’ve done some good, he’s done his own good Christina: he has, he has done his own. Good, good. That’s honestly, that’s probably what I was thinking of, but Jeff: It’s my favorite Jeff besides me because Bezos, he’s not in the, he’s not in the game. Christina: No. No, he’s not. No. Um, he, he’s, he’s not on the Christmas card list at all. Jeff: Oh man. Jeff’s Concert Marathon Jeff: Can I just tell you guys that I did something, um, I did something crazy a couple weeks ago and I went to three shows in one week, like I was 20 fucking two, Brett: Good grief. Jeff: and. It was a blast. So, okay, so the background of this is my oldest son [00:28:00] loves hip hop, and when we drive him to college and back, or when I do, it’s often just me. Um, he, he goes deep and he, it’s a lot of like, kind of indie hip hop and a lot. It’s just an interesting, he listens to interesting shit, but he will go deep and he’ll just like, give me a tour through someone’s discography or through all their features somewhere, whatever it is. And like, it’s the kind of input that I love, which is just like, I don’t, even if it’s not my genre, like if you’re passionate and you can just weave me through the interrelationship and the history and whatever it is I’m in. So as a result of that, made me a huge fan of Danny Brown and made me a huge fan of the sky, Billy Woods. And so what happened was I went to a hip hop show at the seventh Street entry, uh, which is attached to First Avenue. It’s a little club, very small, lovely little place, the only place my band could sell out. Um, and I watched a hip hop show there on a Monday night, Tuesday night. I went to the Uptown Theater, which Brett is now a actually an operating [00:29:00] theater for shows. Uh, and I, and I saw Danny Brown, but I also saw two hyper pop bands, a genre I was not previously aware of, including one, which was amazing, called Fem Tenal. And I was in line to get into that show behind furries, behind trans Kids. Like it was this, I was the weirdest, like I did not belong. Underscores played, and, and this will mean something to somebody out there, but not, didn’t mean anything to me until that night. And, uh. I felt like such, there were times, not during Danny Brown, Danny Brown’s my age all good. But like there were times where I was in the crowd ’cause I’m tall. Anybody that doesn’t know I’m very tall and I’m wearing like a not very comfortable or safe guy seeming outfit, a black hoodie, a black stocking cap. Like I basically looked like I’m possibly a shooter and, and I’m like standing among all these young people loving it, but feeling a little like, should I go to the back? Even like I was leaving that show [00:30:00] and the only people my age were people’s parents that were waiting to pick them up on the way out. So anyway, that was night two. Danny Brown was awesome. And then two nights later I went to see, this is way more my speed, a band called the Dazzling Kilman who were a band that. Came out in the nineties, St. Louis and a noisy Matthew Rock. Wikipedia claims they invented math rock. It’s a really stupid claim, uh, but it’s a lovely, interesting band and it’s a friend of mine named Nick Sakes, who’s who fronted that band and was in all these great bands back when I was in bands called Colos Mite and Sick Bay, and all this is great shit. So they played a reunion show. In this tiny punk rock club here called Cloudland, just a lovely little punk rock club. And, um, and, and that was like rounded out my week. So like, I was definitely, uh, a tourist the early part of the week, mostly at the Danny Brown Show. But then I like got to come home to my noisy punk rock [00:31:00] on, uh, on Thursday night. And I, I fucking did three shows and it hurt so bad. Like even by the first of three bands on the second night. I was like, I don’t think I can make it. And I do. I already pregame shows with ibuprofen. Just to be really clear, I microdose glucose tabs at shows like, like I am, I am a full on old man doing these things. But, um, I did get some cred with my kids for being at a hyper pop show all by myself. And, Christina: Hell yeah. A a Jeff: friends seemed impressed. Christina: no, as a as, as as they should be. I’m impressed. And like, and I, I, I typically like, I definitely go to like more of like, I go, I go to shows more frequently and, and I’m, I’m even like, I’m, I’m gonna be real with you. I’m like, yeah, three in one week. Jeff: That’s a lot. Christina: That’s a lot. That’s a lot. Jeff: man. Did I feel good when I walked home from that last show though? I was like, I fucking did it. I did not believe I wasn’t gonna bail on at least two of those shows, if not all three. Anyway, just wanted to say Brett: I [00:32:00] do like one show a year, but Jeff: that’s how I’ve been for years this year. I think I’ve seen eight shows. Brett: damn. Jeff: Yeah, it’s Brett: Alright, so you’ve been teasing us about this, this contest you won. Jeff: Yeah, please, Christina. Sorry to push that off. Christina: No, no, no, no. That’s, that’s completely okay. That, that, that, that’s great. Uh, no. Christina Wins Big Christina: So, um, I won two six K monitors. Brett: Damn. Jeff: is that what those boxes are behind you? Christina: Yeah, yeah. This is what the boxes are behind me, so I haven’t been able to get them up because this happened. I got them literally right in the midst of all this stuff with my back. Um, but I do have an Ergotron poll now that is here, and, and Grant has said that he will, will get them up. But yeah, so I won 2 32 inch six K monitors from a Reddit contest. Brett: How, how, how, Jeff: How does this happen? How do I find a Reddit contest? Christina: Yeah. So I got lucky. So I have, I, I have a clearly, well, well, um, there was a little, there was a little bit of like, other step to it than that, but like, uh, so how it worked was basically, um, LG is basically just put out [00:33:00] two, they put out a new 32 inch six K monitor. I’ll have it linked in, in, in the show notes. Um, so we’ve talked about this on this podcast before, but like one of my big, like. Pet peeve, like things that I can’t get past. It’s like I need like a retina screen. Like I need like the, the perfect pixel doubling thing for that the Mac Os deals with, because I’ve used a 5K screen, either through an iMac or um, an lg, um, ultra fine or, um, a, uh, studio display. For like 11 years. And, and I, and I’ve been using retina displays on laptops even longer than that. And so if I use like a regular 4K display, like it just, it, it doesn’t work for me. Um, you can use apps like, um, like better control and other things to kind of emulate, like what would be like if you doubled the resolution, then it, it down, you know, um, of samples that, so that. It looks better than, than if it’s just like the, the, the 4K stuff where in the, the user interface things are too big and whatnot. And to be clear, this is a Macco West problem. If [00:34:00] you are using Windows or Linux or any other operating system that does fractional scaling, um, correctly, then this is not a problem. But Macco West does not do fractional scaling direct, uh, correctly. Um, weirdly iOS can, like, they can do three X resolution and other things. Um, but, but, but Macs does not. And that’s weird because some of the native resolutions on some of the MacBook errors are not even perfectly pixeled doubled, meaning Apple is already having to do a certain amount of like resolution changes to, to fit into their own, created by their, their own hubris, like way of insisting on, on only having like, like two x pixel doubling 18 years ago, we could have had independent, uh, resolutions, uh, um, for, for UI elements and, and, and window bars. But anyway, I, I’m, I’m digressing anyway. I was looking at trying to get either a second, uh, studio display, which I don’t wanna do because Apple’s reportedly going to be putting out a new one. Um, and they’re expensive or getting, um, there are now a number of different six K [00:35:00] displays that are not $6,000 that are on the market. So, um, uh, uh, Asus has one, um, there is one from like a, a Chinese company called like, or Q Con that, um, looks like a, a complete copy of this, of the pro display XDR. It has a different panel, but it’s, it’s six K and they, they’ve copied the whole design and it’s aluminum and it’s glossy and it looks great, but I’d have to like get it from like. A weird distributor, and if I have any issues with it, I don’t really wanna have to send it back to China and whatnot. And then LG has one that they just put out. And so I’ve been researching these on, on Mac rumors and on some other forums. And, um, I, uh, I, somebody in one of the Mac Roomers forums like posted that there was like a contest that LG was running in a few different subreddits where they were like, tell us why you should get one of, like, we’re gonna be giving away like either one or two monitors, and I guess they did this in a few subreddits. Tell us why this would be good for your workflow. And, um, I guess I, I guess I’m one of the people who kind of read the [00:36:00] assignment because it, okay, I’ll just be honest with this, with, with you guys on this podcast, uh, because I, I don’t think anyone from LG will hear this and my answers were accurate anyway. But anyway, this was not the sort of contest where it was like we will randomly select a winner. This was the moderators and lg, were going to read the responses and choose the winner. Jeff: Got it. Christina: So if you spend a little bit of time and thoughtfully write out a response, maybe you stand a better chance of winning the contest. Jeff: yeah, yeah. Put the work in like it was 2002. Christina: Right. Anyway, I still was shocked when I like woke up like on like Halloween and they were like, congratulations, you’ve won two monitors. I’m like, I’m sorry. What? Jeff: That’s amazing. Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff: Nice work. I know I’ve, you know, I’ve been staring at those boxes behind you this whole time, just being like, those look like some sweet monitors. Christina: yeah, yeah. Monitor Setup Challenges Christina: I mean, and, uh, [00:37:00] uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, and I, I’m very much, so my, my, my only issue is, okay, how am I gonna get these on my desk? So I’m gonna have to do something with my iMac and I’m probably gonna have to get rid of my, my my, my 5K, um, uh, uh, studio display, at least in the short term. Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles Christina: Um, but what I did do is I, um, I ordered from, um, Ergotron, ’cause I already have. Um, two of their, um, LX mounts, um, or, or, or, or arms. Um, and only one of them is being used right now. And then I have a different arm that I use for the, um, um, iMac. Um, they sell like a, if you call ’em directly, you can get them to send you a tall pole so that you can put the two arms on top of them. And that way I think I can like, have them so that I can have like one pole and then like have one on one side, one Jeff: I have a tall pole. Christina: and, and yeah, that’s what she said. Um, Jeff: as soon as I said it, I was like, for fuck’s sake. But Christina: um, but, uh, but, but yeah, but so that way I think I, I can, I, in theory, I can stack the market and have ’em side by side. I don’t know. Um, I got that. I, I had to call Tron and, and order that from them. [00:38:00] Um, it was only a hundred dollars for, for the poll and then $50 for a handling fee. Jeff: It’s not easy to ship a tall pole. Brett: That’s what she said. Christina: that is what she said. Uh, that is exactly what she said. But yeah, so I, I, the, the, the unfortunate thing is that, um, I, um, I, I had to, uh, get a, like all these, they, they came in literally right before Thanksgiving, and then I’ve had, like, all my back stuff has Jeff: Yeah, no Christina: debilitating, but I’m looking forward to, um, getting them set up and used. And, uh, yeah. Review Plans and Honest Assessments Christina: And then full review will be coming to, uh, to, I have to post a review on Reddit, but then I will also be doing a more in depth review, uh, on this podcast if anybody’s interested in, in other places too, to like, let let you know, like if it’s worth your money or not. Um, ’cause there, like I said, there are, there are a few other options out there. So it’s not one of those things where like, you know, um, like, thank you very much for the free monitor, um, monitors. But, but I, I will, I will give like the, the, you know, an honest assessment or Current Display Setup Brett: So [00:39:00] do you currently have a two display setup? Christina: No. Um, well, yes, and kind of, so I have my, my, I have my 5K studio display, and then I have like my iMac that I use as a two to display setup. But then otherwise, what I’ve had to do, and this is actually part of why I’m looking forward to this, is I have a 4K 27 inch monitor, but it’s garbage. And it, it’s one of those things where I don’t wanna use it with my Mac. And so I wind up only using it with my, with my Windows machine, with my framework desktop, um, with my Windows or Linux machine. And, and because that, even though I, it supports Thunderbolt, the Apple display is pain in the ass to use with those things. It doesn’t have the KVM built in. Like, it doesn’t like it, it just, it’s not good for that situation. So yeah, this will be of this size. I mean, again, like I, I, I’m 2 32 inch monitors. I don’t know how I’m gonna deal with that on my Jeff: I Brett: yeah. So right now I’m looking at 2 32 inch like UHD monitors, Christina: Yeah,[00:40:00] Brett: I will say that on days when my neck hurts, it sucks. It’s a, it’s too wide a range to, to like pan back and forth quickly. Like I’ll throw my back out, like trying to keep track of stuff. Um, but I have found that like if I keep the second display, just like maybe social media apps is the way I usually set it up. And then I only work on one. I tried buying an extra wide curve display, hated it. Jeff: Uh, I’ve always wanted to try one, but Christina: I don’t like them. Jeff: Yeah. Christina: Well, for me, well for me it’s two things. One, it’s the, I don’t love the whole like, you know, thing or whatever, but the big thing honestly there, if you could give me, ’cause people are like, oh, you can get a really big 5K, 2K display. I’m like, that’s not a 5K display. That is 2 27 inch, 1440 P displays. One, you know, ultra wide, which is great. Good for you. That’s not retina. And I’m a sicko Who [00:41:00] needs the, the pixel doubling? Like I wish that my eyes could not use that, but, but, but, Jeff: that needs the pixel. Like was that the headline of your Reddit, uh, Christina: no, no. It wasn’t, it wasn’t. But, but maybe it should be. Hi, I’m a sicko who only, um, fucks with, with, with, with, with, with, with retina displays. Ask me anything. Um, but no, but that’s a good point. Brett: I think 5K Psycho is the Christina: 5K Sicko is the po is the po title. I like that. I like that. No, what I’m thinking about doing and that’s great to know, Brett. Um, this kind of reaffirms my thing. Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences Christina: So what’s nice about these monitors is that they come with like, built in like, um, Thunderbolt 5K VM. So, which is nice. So you could conceivably have multiple, you know, computers, uh, connected, you know, to to, to one monitor, which I really like. Um, I mean like, ’cause like look, I, I’ve bitched and moaned about the studio display, um, primarily for the price, but at the same time, if mine broke tomorrow and if I didn’t have any way to replace it, I’ve, I’ve also gone on record saying I would buy a new one immediately. As mad as I am about a [00:42:00] lot of different things with that, that the built-in webcam is garbage. The, you know, the, the fact that there’s not a power button is garbage. The fact that you can’t use it with multiple inputs, it’s garbage. But it’s a really good display and it’s what I’m used to. Um, it’s really not any better than my LG Ultra fine from 2016. But you know what? Whatever it is, what it is. Um. I, I am a 5K sicko, but being able to, um, connect my, my personal machine and my work machine at the same time to one, and then have my Windows slash Linux computer connected to another, I think that’s gonna be the scenario where I’m in. So I’m not gonna necessarily be in a place where I’m like, okay, I need to try to look at both of them across 2 32 inch displays. ’cause I think that that, like, that would be awesome. But I feel like that’s too much. Brett: I would love a decent like Thunderbolt KVM setup that could actually swap like my hubs back and Christina: Yes. MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons Brett: Um, so, ’cause I, I have a studio and I have my, uh, Infor MacBook Pro [00:43:00] and I actually work mostly on the MacBook Pro. Um, but if I could easily dock it and switch everything on my desk over to it, I would, I would work in my office more often. ’cause honestly, the M four MacBook Pro is, it’s a better machine than the original studio was. Um, and I haven’t upgraded my studio to the latest, but, um, I imagine the new one is top notch. Christina: Oh yeah. Yeah. Brett: my, my other one, a couple years old now is already long in the tooth. Christina: No, I mean, they’re still good. I mean, it’s funny, I saw that some YouTube video the other day where they were like, the best value MacBook you can get is basically a 4-year-old M1 max. And I was like, I don’t know about that guys. Like, I, I kind of disagree a little bit. Um, but the M1 max, which is I think is what is in the studio, is still a really, really good ship. But to your point, like they’ve made those, um. You know, the, the, the new ones are still so good. Like, I have an M three max as my personal laptop, and [00:44:00] that’s kind of like the dog chip in the, in the m um, series lineup. So I kind of am regretful for spending six grand on that one, but it is what it is, and I’m like, I’m not, I’m not upgrading. Um, I mean, maybe, maybe in, in next year if, if the M five Pro, uh, or M five max or whatever is, is really exceptional, maybe I’ll look at, okay, how much will you give me to, to trade it in? But even then, I, I, but I feel like I’m at that point where I’m like, it gets to a point where like it’s diminishing returns. Um, but, uh, just in terms of my own budget. But, um, yeah, the, the new just info like pro or or max, whatever, Brett: I have, I have an M four MacBook Pro sitting around that I keep forgetting to sell. Uh, it’s the one that I, it only had a 256 gigabyte hard drive, Jeff: what happened to me when I bought my M1, Brett: and I, and I regretted that enough that I just ordered another one. But, uh, for various reasons, I couldn’t just return the one I didn’t Jeff: ’cause it was.[00:45:00] Brett: so now I, now I have to sell it and I should sell it while it’s still a top of the line machine Christina: Sell it before, sell, sell, sell, sell it before next month, um, or, or February or whenever they sell it before then the, the pros come out. ’cause right now the M five base is out, but the pros are not. So I think feel like you could still get most of your value for it, especially since it has very few battery cycles. Be sure to put the battery cycles on your Facebook marketplace or eBay thing or whatever. Um, I bought my, uh, she won’t listen to this so she won’t know, but, um, they, there was a, a killer Cyber Monday deal, uh, for Best Buy where they had like a, the, the, the, so it’s several years old, but it was the, the M two MacBook Air, but the one that they upgraded to 16 gigs of Ram when Apple was like, oh, we have to have Apple Intelligence and everything, because they actually thought that they were actually gonna ship Apple Intelligence. So they like went back and they, like, they, they, you know, retconned like made the base model MacBook Air, like 16 [00:46:00] gigs. Um, and, uh, anyway, it was, it was $600, um, Jeff: still crazy. Christina: which, which like even for like a, a, a 2-year-old machine or whatever, I was like, yeah, she, my sister, I think she’s on like, like a 2014 or older than that. Like, like MacBook Air. She doesn’t even know where the MagSafe is. I don’t think she even knows where the laptop is. So she’s basically doing everything like on her phone and I’m like, okay, you need a laptop of some type, but at this point. I do feel strongly that like the, the, the $600 or, or, or actually I think it was $650, it was actually less, it is actually more expensive than what the, the, the Cyber Monday sale was, um, the M1, Walmart, MacBook Air. I’m like, absolutely not like that is at this point, do not buy that. Right? Like, I, especially with eight gigs of ram, I’m, I’m like, it’s been, it’s five years old. It’s a, it was a great machine and it was great value for a long time. $200. Cool, right? Like, if you could get something like use and, and, and, and if you could replace the battery or, you know, [00:47:00] for, for, you know, not, not too much money or whatever. Like, I, I, I could see like an argument to be made like value, right? But there’d be no way in hell that I would ever spend or tell anybody else to spend $650 on that new, but $600 for an M two with Jeff: Now we’re talking. Christina: which has the redesign brand new. I’m like, okay. Spend $150 more and you could have got the M four, um, uh, MacBook Air, obviously all around Better Machine. But for my sister, she doesn’t need that, Jeff: What do we have to do to put your sister in this M two MacBook Christina: that, that, that, that, that, that’s exactly it. So I, I, I was, well, also, it was one of those things I was like, I think that she would rather me spend the money on toys for my nephew for Santa Claus than, than, uh, giving her like a, a processor upgrade. Um, Jeff: Claus isn’t real. Brett: Oh shit. Jeff: Gotcha. Every year I spoil it for somebody. This year it was Christina and Brett. Sorry guys. Brett: right. Well, can I tell you guys Jeff: Yeah. [00:48:00] Brett Software. Brett: two quick projects before we do Jeff: Hold on. You don’t have to be quick ’cause you could call it Brett: We’re already at 45 minutes and I want Jeff: What I’m saying, skip GrAPPtitude. This is it? Brett: okay. Christina: us about Mark. Tell us about your projects. Brett: So, so Mark three is, there’s a public, um, test flight beta link. Uh, if you go to marked app.com, not marked two app.com, uh, marked app.com. Uh, you, there’s a link in the, in the, at the top for Christina: Join beta. Mm-hmm. Brett: Um, and that is public and you can join it and you can send me feedback directly through email because, um, uh, uh, the feedback reporter sucks for test flight and you can’t attach files. And half the time they come through as anonymous feedback and I can’t even follow up on ’em. So email me. But, um, I’ll be announcing that on my blog soon-ish. Um, right now there’s like [00:49:00] maybe a couple dozen, um, testers and I, it’s nice and small and I’m solving the biggest bugs right away. Um, so that’s been, that’s been big. Like Mark, even since we last talked has added. Do you remember Jeff when Merlin was on and he wanted to. He wanted to be able to manage his styles, um, and disable built-in styles. There’s now a whole table based style manager where you Jeff: saw that. Brett: you can, you can reorder, including built-in styles. You can reorder, enable, disable, edit, duplicate. Um, it’s like a full, full fledged, um, style manager. And I just built a whole web app that is a style generator that gives you, um, automatic like rhythm calculations for your CSS and you can, you can control everything through like, uh, like UI fields instead of having to [00:50:00] write CSS. Uh, but you can also o open up a very, I’ve spent a lot of time on the code mirror CSS editor in the web app. Uh, so, and it’s got live preview as you edit in the code mirror field. Um, so that’s pretty cool. And that’s built into marts. So if you go to style, um, generate style, it’ll load up a, a style generator for you. Anyway, there’s, there’s a ton. I’m not gonna go into all the details, but, uh, anyone listening who uses markdown for anything, especially if you want ability to export to like Word and epub and advanced PDF export, um, join the beta. Let me know what you think. Uh, help me squash bugs. But the other thing, every time I push a beta for review before the new bug reports come in, I’ve been putting time into a tool. Markdown Processor: Apex Brett: I’m calling [00:51:00] Apex and um, I haven’t publicly announced this one yet, but I probably will by the time this podcast comes out. Jeff: I mean, doesn’t this count? Brett: It, it does. I’m saying like this, this might be a, you hear you heard it here first kind of thing, um, but if you go to github.com/tt sc slash apex, um, I built a, uh, pure C markdown processor that combines syntax from cram down GitHub flavored markdown, multi markdown maku, um, common mark. And basically you can write syntax from any of those processors, including all of their special features, um, and in one document, and then use Apex in its unified mode, and it’ll just figure out what. All of your syntax is supposed to do. Um, so you can take, you can port documents from one platform to another [00:52:00] without worrying about how they’re gonna render. Um, if I can get any kind of adoption with Apex, it could solve a lot of problems. Um, I built it because I want to make it the default processor in marked ’cause right now, you, you have to choose, you know, cram Christina: Which one? Brett: mark and, and choosing one means you lose something in order to gain something. Um, so I wanted to build a universal one that brought together everything. And I added cool features from some extensions of other languages, such as if you have two lists in a row, normally in markdown, it’s gonna concatenate those into one list. Now you can put a carrot on a line between the two lists and it’ll break it into two lists. I also added support for a. An extension to cram down that lets you put double uh, carrots inside a table cell and [00:53:00] create a row band. So like a cell that, that expands it, you rows but doesn’t expand the rest of the row. Um, so you can do cell spans and row spans and it has a relaxed table version where you don’t have to have an alignment row, which is, uh, sometimes we just wanna make quickly table. You make two lines. You put some pipes in. This will, if there’s no alignment row, it will generate a table with just a table body and table data cells in no header. It also allows footers, you can add a footer to a table by using equals in the separator line. Um, it, it’s, Jeff: This is very civilized, Brett: it is. Christina: is amazing, Brett: So where Common Mark is extremely strict about things, um, apex is extremely permissive. Jeff: also itty bitty things like talk about the call out boxes from like Brett: oh yeah, it, it can handle call out syntax from Obsidian and Bear and Xcode Playgrounds. [00:54:00] Um, and it incorporates all of Mark’s syntax for like file includes and even renders like auto scroll pauses that work in marked and some other teleprompter situations. Um, it uses file ude syntax from multi markdown, like, which is just like a curly brace and, uh, marked, which is, uh, left like a double left, uh, angle bracket and then different. Brackets to surround a file name and it handles IA writer file inclusion where you just type a forward slash and then the name of a file and it automatically detects if that file is an image or source code or markdown text, and it will import it accordingly. And if it’s a CSV file, it’ll generate a table from it automatically. It’s, it’s kind of nuts. I, it’s kind of nuts. I could not have done this [00:55:00] without copilot. I, I am very thankful for copilot because my C skills are not, would not on their own, have been up to this task. I know enough to bug debug, but yeah, a lot of these features I got a big hand from copilot on. Jeff: This is also Brett. This is some serious Brett Terpstra. TURPs Hard Christina: Yeah, it is. I was gonna say, this is like Jeff: and also that’s right. Also, if your grandma ever wrote you a note and it, and though you couldn’t really read it, it really well, that renders perfectly Christina: Amazing. No, I was gonna say this is like, okay, so Apex is like the perfect name ’cause this is the apex of Brett. Jeff: Yes. Apex of Brett. Christina: That’s also that, that’s, that’s not an alternate episode title Apex of Brett. Because genuinely No, Brett, like I am, I am so stunned and impressed. I mean, you all, you always impressed me like you are the most impressive like developer that I, that I’ve ever known. But you, this is incredible. And, and this, I, I love this [00:56:00] because as you said, like common Mark is incredibly strict. This is incredibly permissive. But this is great. ’cause there are those scenarios where you might have like, I wanna use one feature from one thing or one from another, or I wanna combine things in various ways, or I don’t wanna have to think about it, you know? Brett: I aals, I forgot to mention I aals inline attribute list, which is a crammed down feature that lets you put curly brackets after like a paragraph and then a colon and then say, dot call out inside the curly brackets. And then when it renders the markdown, it creates that paragraph and adds class equals call out to the paragraph. Um, and in, in Cramon you can apply these to everything from list items to list to block quotes. Like you can do ’em for spans. You could like have one after, uh, link syntax and just apply, say dot external to a link. So the IAL syntax can add IDs classes and uh, arbitrary [00:57:00] attributes to any element in your markdown when it renders to HTML. And, uh, and Apex has first class support for I aals. Was really, that was, that Christina: that was really hard, Brett: I wrote it because I wanted, I wanted multi markdown, uh, for my prose writing, but I really missed the als. Christina: Yes. Okay. Because see, I run into this sort of thing too, right? Because like, this is a problem like that. I mean, it’s a very niche problem, um, that, that, you know, people who listen to this podcast probably are more familiar with than other types of people. But like, when you have to choose your markdown processor, which as you said, like Brett, like that can be a problem. Like, like with, with using Mark or anything else, you’re like, what am I giving up? What do I have? And, and like for me, because I started using mul, you know, markdown, um, uh, largely because of you, um, I think I was using it, I knew about it before you, but largely because of, of, of you, like multi markdown has always been like kind of my, or was historically my flavor of choice. It has since shifted to being [00:58:00] GitHub, labor bird markdown. But that’s just because the industry has taken that on, right? But there were, you know, certain things like in like, you know, multi markdown that work a certain way. And then yeah, there are things in crammed down. There are things in these other things in like, this is just, this is awesome. This Brett: It is, the whole thing is built on top of C mark, GFM, which is GitHub’s port of common mark with the GitHub flavored markdown Christina: Right. Brett: Um, and I built, like, I kept that as a sub-module, totally clean, and built all of this as extensions on top of Cmar, GFM, which, you know, so it has full compatibility with GitHub and with Common Merck by out, like outta the box. And then everything else is built on top of that. So it, uh, it covers, it covers all the bases. You’ll love it Christina: I’m so excited. No, this is awesome. And I Brett: blazing fast. It can render, I have a complex document that, that uses all of its features and it can render it in [00:59:00] 0.006 seconds. Christina: that’s awesome. Jeff: Awesome. Christina: That’s so cool. No, this is great. And yeah, I, and I think that honestly, like this is the sort of thing like if, yeah, if you can eventually get this to like be like the engine that powers like mark three, like, that’ll be really slick, right? Because then like, yeah, okay, I can take one document and then just, you know, kind of, you know, wi with, with the, you know, ha have, have the compatibility mode where you’re like, okay, the unified mode or whatever yo

Google trends expert Christina Basilio joins the Mason Paine show to discuss the most in demand and trending items for the holiday season. Christina also discusses how to use various Google tools to help with your shopping. For the latest trends from Google visit: Trends.Google.com/TrendsFollow Twitter on Google at: Twitter.com/GoogleLike Google on Facebook at: Facebook.com/GoogleLike and Follow Google on Instagram at: Instagram.com/Google https://75dc83.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/16.-Christina-Basilio-Holiday-Trending-Items-on-Google.mp3 Google Holiday Trends Transcription 00:00 – Announcer: Mason Vera Paine. 00:01 – Mason: Holiday season is upon us and to find out what are some of the hottest gifts that are in demand, as well as how to use various Google tools to alleviate your troubles, joining us is Google trends expert Christina Basilio. Thanks for joining me, Christina. 00:14 – Christina: Hi, it's so great to be here. 00:15 – Mason: So to top off first, I got to know, what are the top gifts trending for the holiday so far? 00:21 – Christina: Yeah. Based on a search trend we've been seeing through the year, we've been able to identify about a hundred gifts and ideas. For me, I'm looking for something fun, unique, and maybe a little nostalgic. So some things that stood out to me on the list were things like our engraved necklaces. Purchases for that are up about 5,000 %, as well as lab-grown diamond tennis bracelets, so economically sourced diamonds, folks are looking at. And the beauty space, things like claw clips to pull your hair back, those are making a resurgence this year. On the electronics front, we're seeing things like headsets are really of interest. So either gamer headsets with a mic on them or even sleep headphones for people that are trying to maybe get a more restful sleep. We've been seeing stuff like that pop up. 1:07 – Mason: I'm a little bit curious about the keyword Choiceage. So when going through the apparel and accessories, I noticed that one of the things that was trending was target cozy sneakers. Why use the word cozy? Why not just word like, slippers? 1:22 – Christina: Yeah. So what we're seeing is seeing the search trend for things like flippers. They always spike in December. So if I had to guess, it's because people are trying to stay warm this holiday. And what are fun words that people think of? And I think cozy is probably one of them. 1:36 – Mason: Okay, that's fair enough. When it comes to the searches, what's driving the holiday sales? Is it like deep discounts or special promotions? 1:45 – Christina: So I think it's probably a mix of both, right? So we get the list of things that people are really looking for. But what we also see is people come to Google to find things like deals. So maybe they want the big ticket item but they don't want to spend full price. Something that we're able to help people do if they're looking to save a little bit of money is if they Google shop deals, they'll be taken to a special landing page that will give them millions of items that are on sale right now. So they can search through the different categories and find things from their favorite brands like Target or Under Armor so that they can save.Some money. 2:17 – Mason: Now, would it be smarter to use broad terms instead of specific terms, such as if I wanted to get shoes, I would just type in shoe deals instead of specified Nike deals. 2:29 – Christina: So the great is that you can do whatever feels most comfortable. So the way that I think about it is if you're looking for a specific thing, you can search for that specific item or that specific brand. Or if you're looking for something to the starting place, you can type in something like shoes. Can I share one of my favorite hacks, though? 2:47 – Mason: Yeah, sure. 2:48 – Christina: Okay, so I don't know if you've heard of Google Lens, but with Google Lens,

Today's conversation with Christina Frei about marketing archetype fits under the P of Partnership. I talk to Christina about seeing marketing as a partnership with their wider community. Christina Frei is a marketing consultant, author, and creator of the Generosity Practice mindset work and the Innate Marketing Genius tools and method. She helps brilliant, mission-based entrepreneurs look smart and get hired. In between, she chases her dog around with a stuffed animal snake, meditates on a pink couch, and obsesses over the perfect cup of green tea, all in a seaside town north of Boston. Her favorite quote: "You either walk inside your story and own it or you stand outside your story and hustle for your worthiness." - Brene Brown In this episode, you'll learn about your marketing archetype and... The research behind Christina's 5 Marketing Archetypes What these 5 archetypes are My marketing archetype and what it means for me How to shift your mindset about marketing if you feel resistance to it The 'marketing brain and the client-service brain and so much more Christina's Resources Christina's Website Christina's Marketing Archetype Assessment Marketing for Humans Podcast Connect with Christina on: Facebook YouTube LinkedIn Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Christina. So good to see you speak with you for our listeners on the podcast. They won't see you, but I do, which is great. I'm so happy that we could do this interview with you. I know we had some trouble last time. We want to talk about marketing archetypes. So I think the best way is to just jump right into it. So you came up with this framework five marketing archetypes, and I want to ask you what they are, but me do before I do. I'd love to hear how you came up with this and you know, what the research was behind it. And just kinda like why come up with five marketing architects? So tell us a little bit about you and your journey to those archetypes. So I was in Christina: the thick of doing a field study where I had 40 people in five countries, testing a mindset tool. You know, that I. This will have nothing to do with marketing, but it [00:01:00] turns out that when I heard back from people, several of them were business owners. And I'll just share with you with the mindset tool is it's called the generosity practice. It's something I developed in the early 2007. It basically puts you in a contribution mindset, right? Where you're just on fire to help people, even if you've been rejected. Even if people are being rude, you're just like, wow. I just love helping people seem like a ninja of service. It's awesome. So what I heard back from the, a lot of the business owners was, you know, okay, so this is helping me in my regular life, but as a business owner, I am much more consistent with getting my message out there. I'm not as shy. I'm much more excited to just connect with people in general. So I'm marketing more consistently, just overall, also at the negotiating table when there's a lot of money on the team. I just sit quietly and listen, I'm not there to prove anything. I'm not there to like push for the sale. I just accurately diagnose who's across from me and then offer them what they need. And nine times out of time, it's, it's a yes. [00:02:00] So that was a turning point for me. I realized that I could probably use this work for marketing or for business owners in some way. It didn't know how, so then I actually conducted another field study, which was. Basically coming up with a marketing plan for 40 entrepreneurs. And I used my method, like a deeper level of it to help them focus their message and help them simplify, like just how do you even choose what you're going to do in your marketing? That's a huge decision, right? So I wanted to help them. It was one big test. And what I realized when I did the 40 plans in a row that every single person that went through my process had this beautiful, Y a Y of like, this is how I absolutely love helping humans. And that my mind saw archetypes with that, right? Like one woman who was a real estate agent, she was this master of ceremonies. She always likes to lift the whole thing up and go [00:03:00] big and like, you know, visas, huge presence and she's magnetic. So that was her archetype and we built her messaging and her strategy around that. Another one was more of what I call now and adventure guide somebody who's like, okay, you know, I'm an interior designer and yes, I could show you all the beautiful things, but let's get on a horseback and go have an adventure and I'll tell you what's possible. And that was her energy. So I saw her as an adventure guide. And all these started popping up and it was just fun to like, look at marketing from a little bit more personal depth way. Like this person has a message. This person has a why they love helping people forget their expertise for a second, but they just love helping people in this particular way. And then when you have 40, you can actually look for patterns. And I, you know, it's not a big number, but there were patterns and I found five really strong categories. And those are the categories I'm going to share with you today. Develops an assessment around it. And you know, I've been using them for [00:04:00] six years and they've held like they're sort of a foundation point for what. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, because on the humane marketing podcast and just kind of in general, people who follow my work, we love anything that is like an assessment or personality quiz or anything like that. It's part of the personal power P because it helps us understand who we are so that we can then mark it from that place of who we are. And it really sounds like that's what you have. Developed another, you know, assessment that we could refer to. Our episode, we're actually featuring it under the P of partnership, because you told me that you really help people see marketing as a partnership with their wider community. I'd love for you to explain a little bit more about that statement. And then we go into the five archetypes. Christina: So. When somebody there's a few [00:05:00] different ways to approach marketing. Right? I think one of the natural ways is to say to yourself, okay, I need clients. I need to look impressive and I need to somehow stay consistent so that people will be like, oh, I want to work with that life coach. Oh, I want to work with that therapist or whoever is going to be whoever, whatever kind of expert you are. And so that can very quickly become mechanical where you're just like churning. It's like, I just got to do this message and you're not really in it. You're just sort of pumping it out. And so, and I don't really call that being a partner to your community. What makes you a partner to come to your wider community is when in your messaging and even in your strategy decision, the fact that you might do a podcast rather than an event series. All of that can be infused with your why, like you're showing your care through your message. I'll give you one example. So I'm working with a promotions expert right now. She is somebody who has like [00:06:00] tens of thousands of stuff of like trinket. But like items that you can use for your clients to really stand out and, you know, there's sort of a negative spin on promotional items because a lot of times it's just a bunch of plastic going out to the world. Right? So like, how do you, how do you create your marketing as a partner with your wider community with that kind of business? So we identified her archetype as she's this like comfy couch queen. She's like at this magnetic vibration of like, this is my world's coming visit me also. I love. You know, sitting on a couch, metaphorically or otherwise, and just like getting to the heart of it. Right. And looking at things differently and being curious and like, she could just do that all day long. So we created a message from that we're like, okay, what do you want to say as a partner to your community? Well, I want to say, Hey I want to celebrate all the leaders in my community and at the same time, Share with you, how you can stand out with promotional items so that it's not one big [00:07:00] advertisement. It's like a really helpful, like I'm going to feature leaders while I'm also educating you about the promotional items. So that's her being that comfy couch queen. And then the way she's doing that is a podcast. And it's this kind of community celebration podcast with a little bit of education open in there that all flows from her. Why. And so every single facet of her marketing now shows that, oh my gosh, like she just cares about us. Anyone who listens to it, anyone she gives the link to like, oh, are you struggling with this? Let me help you. I have like a podcast for, I mean, you probably do this all the time, Sarah. Cause you do very specific topics. So I just want to show that like, you can take your why and weave it in to every single thing. And then anytime you're touching out to your community, they feel your. It just needs to start from the beginning. Sarah: Yeah. I love that. I love this. How you explain the partnership piece because it is, it's kind of like this word. We're like, oh, that sounds like [00:08:00] some legal agreement maybe or something very. Right. And so when you share that way, it's like, oh yeah, I do care for my clients. I do care for my community. And it's in marketing. Well, it's all about sharing that you care and yeah. Walking your talk and it really sounds like your couch queen is, is doing a great job at that. I love that. And then of course, Bringing in my why as well. Right. Christina: That's right. And I just want to add something else if you, because I think it matters to your audience as far as like, I'm going to call them transformational professionals, right? Like anyone who's really good at what they do and they're changing lives. Right. That's what I call you. So I set the bar high for people like. You know, transformational professionals that you need to change lives when you get out there, right. You need to actually make a difference to people's lives when you're marketing, not just phoning it in and having an accurate message about what you do. It needs to be like, whoa, like [00:09:00] that's compelling. And I just want to know more and that's because you're actually changing lives right out of. Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to add Sarah: no, that's great. Yeah. I feel like for, if I draw the parallel, because that's kind of what we're doing, we're both marketers and we're learning from each other. And so if I look at the way I talk about it, this is the world view. I talk about sharing our worldview and yes, that we care about our clients, but that we also care about the bigger picture. So you know, the planet or yet, like you said, changing the world. So. So really showing that it's yes. It's about us and yes, it's about the transaction and the transformation, but it's also about the bigger picture as well. Yeah. So share those five archetypes. So dust. All Christina: right, let's do it. And then we can have the conversation about yours if you want to, or mine or both. So the first one is nurture. You know, you're a [00:10:00] nurture when you absolutely love making it warm and fuzzy for everyone else. And your deep, why is making it safe for others to fix? That is a nurture adventure guides are the people. And again, I love starting with the dead giveaway. Dead giveaway for adventure guys is you're kind of impatient for people to just go for it already. And so your deep, why is you want to, you see what's possible for other people? They're big goals. And you empower them to get there by going for it yourself. So you're the one who gets people into action. Door openers are those who. Just okay. Dead giveaway here is you have 50 ideas at any given moment that could help people. There's like you have lots of perspectives and your deep, why is there are so many possibilities in perception, just perception, just in how you look at things. So I like to call door openers a diamond mind because they just see things from so many different facets, [00:11:00] a steady presence. A dead giveaway is that you really avoid marketing because you don't like getting out there and being super charismatic. And you think that you should be, that's also a dead giveaway. So your deep, why as a steady presence is you are sure people that they have, what it needs, what it takes to move forward. And you're the one with the resources, expertise, and people to make that happen. You're a celebrator or last category, completely different energy. Dead giveaway is if you're in a boring dry situation, you're like, let's give this some life. This is like Jonathan van ness on queer eye. Are you with me that I don't know if you know who he is, but he's like super flamboyant anyway. So your deep, why is bringing the good life to others? You want to bring the good life to others and you do it with your own natural flair, whether it's humor fun. Design sense, who knows? Sarah: Right. So kind of bringing beauty and, and yeah, just kind of like [00:12:00] a positive vibe to you. To your audience or to your marketing. Nice. I took some notes. I have them all down. Nurture door opener, steady presence. I'm missing one. Celebrate adventure. Yeah. Adventure guides. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I took the quiz. Maybe I should have not taken the quiz and then just kind of guessed which one I was. But I did take your assessment. So that's an innate marketing genius forward slash assessment. So our listeners can take it as well. And. Drum roll. I'm a nurturer and a door opener. I was actually ending up with two results, I guess, because the, Christina: that is common Sarah: and it's common. Yeah. So Christina: I'm going to ask you Sarah, which one seems more prominent if there is one towards one? Yeah, Sarah: I would definitely say the nurture is, is kind of where I [00:13:00] feel like I'm most at home. I do like the. What did you say? The diamond? Yeah, the diamond Ryan's mind. Yeah. That resonates as well. But I do, I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. So really just image of the mama bear really resonates with me. I feel like, you know, come in, come in, I'll keep you safe and I'll host a space. And, and so that, yeah, that is definitely me, but, but then some of the other ones actually resonate as well. Definitely not the last one to celebrate Tori kind of aspect. That's that's not me. I do have, I do feel like there's a lot of steady presences in the audience, in our listeners. You know, there are people who are like, oh, I just can't be bothered with the marketing should. And so I like what you said about it, and maybe you can repeat that. [00:14:00] Would their role is in marketing. Christina: Totally. And I'm actually going to be holding a special workshop just for steady presences. For that very reason. I do want to say before I answer that I'm also a nurture with a side of door opener, so on that level and for me, I'm a nurture of great ideas in others. That's how that all kind of comes together. Like if you came up to me after a talk or something and said, oh, I just got off. You know, new perspectives and like, I made it safe for you to go there when I give my talk and then I would just start crying because I'm like, that's my mission. Thank you. Hear you. Yeah. Yeah. So as far as steady presence, One thing that I've noticed is incredibly powerful. Like when I watch a steady presence geek out, like really geek out about something, I have no interest in somehow. And this is just, you know one person saying it, but I've been watching this for years. Each time. There's something riveting about watching a steady presence, go into the [00:15:00] depth of what they know and what they do. Like I watched one guy give a talk about auto and home insurance. It's something that I have no special interest in, but I just couldn't stop watching him and listening. And it was just, why am I suddenly riveted to this particular person? And I've always been interested in that. Like, you know, let's say Sarah, you talk about, you know, purpose and marketing and all kinds of rich juicy topics. But if another person talked about it, who might have a very different why that. Then no one would be interested like that happens all the time. And so that's sort of why I feel like the architects are really helpful because it explains the intangible thing that's happened. Hmm, behind all the messaging. Why am I reverted to you, but not riveted to this other person? Who's basically telling me a similar message, but I just don't feel anything compelling going on over there. So that's what I'm always looking for anyway. So for steady presence it is really [00:16:00] powerful for you to be a pillar. Right. Like, we lean on you to be that steady presence. It's such a gift and you typically have the deep resources, deep expertise, deep network, and all you have to do in your marketing. I'm just going to give you a nugget right now is to go deep into one of those things and then share it with. Right. So if you're some kind of a health and wellness professional, and you're going to a program like a conference and you're learning something, then like you could just share a really juicy deep nugget or an article or whatever that shows the riches and the depth and the deliciousness of what you're learning. And don't worry that we even understand a word of what you're just right. Like it's not that doesn't matter what matters is. You're showing us how much, you know, and that's what brings us two years like, oh my gosh, he just knows so much about our groups. This is crazy. Like, I'll never, I don't need to know about Yara group, but she certainly does. And oh my gosh, I [00:17:00] can't wait to see her because she's just the queen of knowledge. And when you display it that way, it's very powerful. To your audience. I love saying that it's very generous to your audience. Don't worry if we keep up with you. I have an attorney who's like an HR labor law attorney. She sends out these really long, you know, in marketing, you're supposed to keep things short, really long in-depth newsletters and they're gorgeous. And it's just like, oh my gosh, this is so helpful to understand, especially around COVID all the changing labor laws and it really educated her audience. Like this is when you need to pick up the phone and call. And, and the, the message underneath the message is look how much she knows she's on top of it. She's like so helpful. She's a great educator. I want to work with her. So that's one thing is sharing the depth of your stuff and expertise, resources, people. The other thing that's really compelling is if you're involved as a leader in your community, like you're on a board, you're doing a volunteer thing. Like [00:18:00] whatever you do, you're raising money. That even if it has nothing to do with what you actually do in your work share about that, the reason it is compelling for you is that you are a pillar and you're acting like one. It just tells us we can lean on you even more than we already are. And that's why we hire you. I find Sarah: it so interesting that what you're talking about, I'm sure for a lot of people they're like, but that's not marketing. And that's exactly what we're trying to say, right? It's like, well, actually you need to, in your mind. And I often find like it's a mindset thing, especially for study presences, probably it's a mindset thing because the minute you tell people to do marketing, to market their business, they get into this frozen mode and they feel like I have, I don't know how I don't have anything to say, but when you give them permission, like you just said, well, just share in depth about what it [00:19:00] is, you know, your knowledge, your expertise, then it's like, oh, I can do that. You know, I have lots of things to share it, but it's like this mindset thing that you have to somehow switch on where you are. This is marketing. Believe me, you're doing marketing right there. Christina: Well, I always ask, you know, are you, do you consider yourself to be a compelling expert of what you do because when you're a compelling expert, that just means that, you know, you're standing out from the crowd you're, you're magnetizing in some way, some way, and you obviously know your stuff. So if you feel like you are being a compelling expert, I mean, sometimes people don't want to be a compelling expert cause it's a little bit it's down the path. I think when not everyone is ready to really stand out like that, I respect that. Right. We are all on our trajectory. But if somebody wants to be that, I say, wouldn't it be fantastic to be that [00:20:00] like, who cares about. How much you hate marketing? I work with tons of people who just like, I hate marketing and but they get past it when they realize how much. How much service they can offer and also how energizing it can be, because here's the other thing, like when you're operating from your, why it's actually energizing. The comfy couch queen is doing her podcast and every single time she does, she's got way more energy to devote to all the rest of her work for that day. That's the kind of marketing I want people to have. Sarah: Yeah, no, totally. It reminds me, I think I heard you say on another podcast or somewhere you talk about the marketing brain and the client service brain. And I think I love that and people will really get this visual. So what are they? And what's the difference between the two? Christina: Yeah, so marketing. Is innately expansive. Like you just want to go out and connect out with more and more people. So it's always that can get grabby and greedy and it's like, [00:21:00] oh, I have to do this app. Or I have to do this strategy or like, I'm a marketing professional that helps people with this every single day. And I wrestle with it, like, should I be on clubhouse? Clubhouse has gotten a little quieter now, but like there's always something, you know, doing the Instagram reels or whatever. Everybody's up to pressure, pressure, pressure to just so think about like, from that mind frame, what kind of choices you're gonna. Okay. So that's one, the client, the client service mindset is where you're really in touch with the value, the actual value that you provide your clients. So one way to tune into that is to contemplate five representative clients and just really get curious about the kind of value you provide them. And then. Create your marketing after you've really gotten clear about that. Like, what is it they truly needed from you? Even if they might've said they wanted this over here, when you really dug in and you're like, this is actually what they need. So that's what I'm going to talk about in my marketing. [00:22:00] So to me, those mindsets are worlds apart. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And yet what we often see out there is. Targeted towards the marketing brain, you know, the latest things you need to have and the latest platforms you need to be on all these marketing sheds that we're constantly yeah, kind of. Being invited to look at. And yet if we're in the service brain, we're actually much more in connection and marketing is connection. So we're much more in connection with our ideal clients. That's so true. I want to go back to the nurture and door openers. So once I do the assessment, right, I know, okay, this is my archetype. What does that mean for me? What do I do with this information? How can. Come up with a strategy from those archetypes one or two, whatever it comes out. Christina: Yes. So first of all, assessments are not [00:23:00] perfect. So I just want to put that in there. And one, one thing that it always invite people to do is, you know, you can always sign up to hang out with me for 30 minutes and we can really cause I muscle test people on there and I could do it with you just to double check, but I muscle test to make sure that we've landed on the right one. That's the thing, but I mean, Anyone who's listening to this probably has a lot of exploration of their own intuition. So like intuitive for yourself now that you've heard all five types, right? Like, so that then when you take the assessment, I have created these five love letters or whatever you want to call them about like celebrating what it means to be a nurture and a door opener. And one of those invites you to have like a. You know, what do you even call it? Like a workbook to take the nurture energy and put it into action. Like really start creating messaging out of that place. And also looking at, you know, what's a brand like for nurtures. I think it's been a long time since I put the report together, but I think I said [00:24:00] Airbnb and you know, Airbnb just made. It's very cozy. Like it just makes everybody comfortable, whatever, like some kind of reference like that. So that's another step as far as landing on a strategy, you know, that is the work that I do with clients in my compelling expert program. It's a four-month program. I also have a, because I've been in business for six years doing. I created like a self study course called one voice, one strategy. And that, you know, if you're a self study or not, everybody is you can just go and knock that one out. But let me just share with you how I help people determine their strategy. Like, you know, you're a nurture with a side of door opener. So from the. I also want to know how you naturally connect with people, right? Like, are you the one that loves to get up on stage and wow. People, you know, from while the audience, are you the one that loves small format workshops or you love being on camera or, I mean, there's just like lots of different ways to connect. And what are your business needs? Do you need to grow your [00:25:00] list? Do you need to just, you know, I have several clients. They're doing fine, but they just need a refresh, like they're at a plateau. So, you know, this is a really great, like refueler and that's true for a couple of podcasts, people that I have, like, they're doing fantastic. They're great marketers, but it's like, they're bored. So let's give it some life. And. So business needs and your, your archetype and your, the way that you naturally connect with people. So then I'll, I'll sit down with somebody and we'll chat about it for 90 minutes and really go deep. Like let's because what inevitably happens is there's one. Beautiful way for you to be out in public. That bubbles to the surface, like when I first started doing this, I'm like, I'm just making this up as I go along. I'm just hoping that every client, I have lands on one strategy and I just would sort of sweat and be really nervous with all my first clients, but it worked every time. Mm, every [00:26:00] time. So maybe the most important thing I can impart is that believe that you have a really powerful core strategy, that could be the engine of everything else. That's sort of like part two of my message. It's like, you've got this. Why it's your marketing archetype, but also you have this. Like for me right now it's talks and when it's in person, nothing better than that. Right. So totally excited for things to start opening up again. And then, you know, I would call podcast a sort of subcategory of talks. So, but for some people it's, let's do, you know, an event series and have a bunch of gatherings that are strategic and it just depends. And maybe it's time for you to write your book. That's another. You know, and by the way, I cannot wait to read your mark, your your marketing book. Like I'm like I, because you and I are so similar in our approach and I have not written my marketing book yet. I wrote my mindset book, but not my marketing books. So I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally have to.[00:27:00] Sarah: Thank you. Yeah, it is really amazing. I was just going to say before you said that comment about the book and how we're similar. It's amazing. What you are talking about, I'm talking about in the, in the frame of the marketing superpower, the gentle marketing superpower, it's that kind of overlap between yes. Your people, what you your personal preference and then the, the, the connection, where do you want to hang out? Right. And it. It really gives you the permission to do what feels good to you. I think that is the biggest takeaway from all of this to do what feels good and not to follow all the guru's latest strategy or what they say they have, you have to do. Right. And, and, and, and, and I think that is just so. Powerful, but it's also so such a big relief. When you can say, I can just focus on one [00:28:00] thing that I'm already good at and that I can get better and better at it in that will be enough. I think there's just a sister of big relief. And Christina: another, another caveat to that. Yes. It's something you're good at, but I also try to give my clients that edge. Right. Like the, the thing that's gonna push them. Right. So, you know, I worked with a life coach who she's like, well, I used to help other speakers with their things. And I'm like, honey, it's time for you to be a speaker. Like she kept saying those people are the speakers. And I just knew. Just from, you know, working deeply with her, it's your turn. And that was you wouldn't say, oh, that's my strength. And I'm great at it, but it was her comfort edge and she knocked it out of the park. So that's, that's another thing, like, I think that keeps us interested. Right. You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna make it sound like it's another full-time job. This is the kind of strategy where like you give a lot of, you give a lot of love in the beginning just to [00:29:00] develop. You know, the foundation, whether it's your talk or whatever, and then it just pays dividends for years, Sarah: if you do it right. No, totally. Yeah. This is another thing I want to talk to you about, because I think we have that in common as well. The bringing back the humanity to marketing. So how do you talk about it with your clients? The whole bringing back the human aspect. Christina: Yeah. And it's like, you have your book marketing, like we're human. My talk, my signature talk is. Marketing for humans, bringing the human back into marketing. You Sarah: go Christina: and pretty much it's w it's the conversation you and I are having right now. I actually have it as an intro course called the three secrets to getting great clients by being you. And so the first one is know your, why. The second one is find the solid strategy. That's going to be your engine and your fuel. And then the third one, which I'll say now, cause that's kind of the missing piece is the [00:30:00] mindset piece, the the contribution mindset. So just to be really specific about that, and I've, I've just wrote a book last year, it's called the generosity practice. I didn't think I could actually teach it on paper. It took me so long to really just sit down and knock that out. Like it was a two year process, but anyway this is about. Like okay, Sarah, if right now you were to wander around your town where you live or your beautiful city. Cause I know where you live and you could offer every stranger the most. Just a gift that would delight you. Like I actually remember being in Lozan and there's this place there was, this is like 25 years ago. There was a place that was like a little cafe that had the rich. Almost like putting like hot to the cathedral. I know that really have to climb up there to get it is like, I've never forgotten that it's been so many years since I had that. And I was like, [00:31:00] if I were there and I were you, if I could give that to every stranger that would delight me and probably make them happy. So if I were to ask you what would be your version of that to give to. Sarah: Would it have to be something like tangible or in dental? Christina: It can be, and it has nothing to do with your real capacity to give it. It's just something in your own heart that would delight you, Sarah: right? Yeah. If I think about my work it would definitely be this permission piece. I feel like that's the biggest feedback I get from the book is people reading my book, say. Thank you. Thank you for the permission to do marketing. Like it feels good to me. So it would be going around, handing out permission, slip saying you can do it however you want. And that goes beyond marketing. I think it really just goes with business. Be who you are in business. Christina: Yeah. So just to take that up a notch, like what color would the permission slip be? Sarah: [00:32:00] It would be. Emerald green. Christina: Ooh. And if you were to put it like in a little cool envelope to make it a little more special, like maybe what would that look like? Sarah: I think it would be a gold envelope, like really sick paper. Probably like one of these old seals on yeah. Christina: We're, I'm taking this with you, Sarah is that, you know, you can go into a space of delight. Like you can even just leave the, well, this is my mission in life and I'm here to bring permission to everyone and that's what they love from me. Like there's also a space for you to be like, oh, I get to give people like these cool gold envelopes with like the Emerald green inside, and this is going to be awesome. So if you take that out to the outermost limits, that's the essence of the practice, like what feels good to offer to life today? And it really allows you the space to step back from your. And all of the sheds and all the expectations and just [00:33:00] decide, I would love to be an offering in this way today. And you could, there's so many ways to go at it, right? You can do it. What we just did. You can also think of a person that you love in your life and like what you would love to offer them. You can think about like what you'd love to offer the whole wide world. And then the deepest level of the practice. Let me just quiet my mind. And this is where it just sitting for 10 minutes is really powerful. You just sit for 10 minutes. You imagine yourself in this glorious place that makes you feel connected. And then you just wait in the unknown for like the gift, right? Like the, and my experience of this is things drop in from. I'm going to call it grace, you know, from all of life, from higher intelligence and it just drops and you're there to discern like, is this the gift or not? Yes, no. And that, that discerning process is incredibly important. Anyway, and then you land it and a lot of times people just get tears or either you're just. Oh, my gosh, this is a different day, but [00:34:00] even just for imagining what I could give to all of life today, and then you see yourself offering it as like, oh my God, what was bothering me? I forget, because this is so awesome. Like I got the rest of my day, like handled. So you can feel that that's, that's what I'm talking about. That's what helps you take rejection and not stop this subtitle to my book is 40 days to unstoppable. And that's for a reason because it makes you unstoppable. You're like, I love helping people. So that's the third piece that makes everything more human is to take control of your mindset and choose one of contribution. Sarah: Yeah. And what did the two others again? Christina: No, your why? So that's the marketing archetype and then pick the solid strategy. That really is your jam. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I love that. And it, in a way it's. I love how you wrote the mindset book first, and then maybe that will lead into the, the marketing book, because I F I feel like I feel the same [00:35:00] about the marketing book. It then led to the sales book. Right? I have marketing like we're human and people ask me what. What about selling? And so I had to give myself permission to write the selling, like we're human book first because I thought, well, I'm not a sales person who am I to write that? So, you know, writing a book is a journey and it's a transformation by itself. So I can't wait to you. Find out more about your book and then hopefully you'll write the marketing book too. Christina: It's out there. Just said there, Sarah: this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Christina. We'll make sure that we link to the book and your website and everything in the, in the show notes. Is there any other link you would like? Well, the, the assessment link, maybe just share that one again. So that's Christina: innate marketing genius.com/assessment. That will get you there in eight. Is I N N a T E [00:36:00] innate Sarah: genius. I always have one last question. And that is what are you grateful for today or this week? Christina? Christina: I'm really thankful for a group of people today. It was 32 of them that go into the ocean with me on Wednesdays and Fridays. And it was. 39 degrees in the water this morning. So we're just, we're there together suffering for two minutes and I, I just adore Sarah: them all 39. That must be like two degrees Celsius or something. Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. It's been a delight. Christina: I appreciate being here.

Today's conversation with Christina Frei about marketing archetype fits under the P of Partnership. I talk to Christina about seeing marketing as a partnership with their wider community. Christina Frei is a marketing consultant, author, and creator of the Generosity Practice mindset work and the Innate Marketing Genius tools and method. She helps brilliant, mission-based entrepreneurs look smart and get hired. In between, she chases her dog around with a stuffed animal snake, meditates on a pink couch, and obsesses over the perfect cup of green tea, all in a seaside town north of Boston. Her favorite quote: “You either walk inside your story and own it or you stand outside your story and hustle for your worthiness.” - Brene Brown In this episode, you'll learn about your marketing archetype and... The research behind Christina's 5 Marketing Archetypes What these 5 archetypes are My marketing archetype and what it means for me How to shift your mindset about marketing if you feel resistance to it The 'marketing brain and the client-service brain and so much more Christina's Resources   Christina's Website Christina's Marketing Archetype Assessment Marketing for Humans Podcast Connect with Christina on: Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Christina. So good to see you speak with you for our listeners on the podcast. They won't see you, but I do, which is great. I'm so happy that we could do this interview with you. I know we had some trouble last time. We want to talk about marketing archetypes. So I think the best way is to just jump right into it. So you came up with this framework five marketing archetypes, and I want to ask you what they are, but me do before I do. I'd love to hear how you came up with this and you know, what the research was behind it. And just kinda like why come up with five marketing architects? So tell us a little bit about you and your journey to those archetypes. So I was in  Christina: the thick of doing a field study where I had 40 people in five countries, testing a mindset tool. You know, that I. This will have nothing to do with marketing, but it [00:01:00] turns out that when I heard back from people, several of them were business owners. And I'll just share with you with the mindset tool is it's called the generosity practice. It's something I developed in the early 2007. It basically puts you in a contribution mindset, right? Where you're just on fire to help people, even if you've been rejected. Even if people are being rude, you're just like, wow. I just love helping people seem like a ninja of service. It's awesome. So what I heard back from the, a lot of the business owners was, you know, okay, so this is helping me in my regular life, but as a business owner, I am much more consistent with getting my message out there. I'm not as shy. I'm much more excited to just connect with people in general. So I'm marketing more consistently, just overall, also at the negotiating table when there's a lot of money on the team. I just sit quietly and listen, I'm not there to prove anything. I'm not there to like push for the sale. I just accurately diagnose who's across from me and then offer them what they need. And nine times out of time, it's, it's a yes. [00:02:00] So that was a turning point for me. I realized that I could probably use this work for marketing or for business owners in some way. It didn't know how, so then I actually conducted another field study, which was. Basically coming up with a marketing plan for 40 entrepreneurs. And I used my method, like a deeper level of it to help them focus their message and help them simplify, like just how do you even choose what you're going to do in your marketing? That's a huge decision, right? So I wanted to help them. It was one big test. And what I realized when I did the 40 plans in a row that every single person that went through my process had this beautiful, Y a Y of like, this is how I absolutely love helping humans. And that my mind saw archetypes with that, right? Like one woman who was a real estate agent, she was this master of ceremonies. She always likes to lift the whole thing up and go [00:03:00] big and like, you know, visas, huge presence and she's magnetic. So that was her archetype and we built her messaging and her strategy around that. Another one was more of what I call now and adventure guide somebody who's like, okay, you know, I'm an interior designer and yes, I could show you all the beautiful things, but let's get on a horseback and go have an adventure and I'll tell you what's possible. And that was her energy. So I saw her as an adventure guide. And all these started popping up and it was just fun to like, look at marketing from a little bit more personal depth way. Like this person has a message. This person has a why they love helping people forget their expertise for a second, but they just love helping people in this particular way. And then when you have 40, you can actually look for patterns. And I, you know, it's not a big number, but there were patterns and I found five really strong categories. And those are the categories I'm going to share with you today. Develops an assessment around it. And you know, I've been using them for [00:04:00] six years and they've held like they're sort of a foundation point for what. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, because on the humane marketing podcast and just kind of in general, people who follow my work, we love anything that is like an assessment or personality quiz or anything like that. It's part of the personal power P because it helps us understand who we are so that we can then mark it from that place of who we are. And it really sounds like that's what you have. Developed another, you know, assessment that we could refer to. Our episode, we're actually featuring it under the P of partnership, because you told me that you really help people see marketing as a partnership with their wider community. I'd love for you to explain a little bit more about that statement. And then we go into the five archetypes.  Christina: So. When somebody there's a few [00:05:00] different ways to approach marketing. Right? I think one of the natural ways is to say to yourself, okay, I need clients. I need to look impressive and I need to somehow stay consistent so that people will be like, oh, I want to work with that life coach. Oh, I want to work with that therapist or whoever is going to be whoever, whatever kind of expert you are. And so that can very quickly become mechanical where you're just like churning. It's like, I just got to do this message and you're not really in it. You're just sort of pumping it out. And so, and I don't really call that being a partner to your community. What makes you a partner to come to your wider community is when in your messaging and even in your strategy decision, the fact that you might do a podcast rather than an event series. All of that can be infused with your why, like you're showing your care through your message. I'll give you one example. So I'm working with a promotions expert right now. She is somebody who has like [00:06:00] tens of thousands of stuff of like trinket. But like items that you can use for your clients to really stand out and, you know, there's sort of a negative spin on promotional items because a lot of times it's just a bunch of plastic going out to the world. Right? So like, how do you, how do you create your marketing as a partner with your wider community with that kind of business? So we identified her archetype as she's this like comfy couch queen. She's like at this magnetic vibration of like, this is my world's coming visit me also. I love. You know, sitting on a couch, metaphorically or otherwise, and just like getting to the heart of it. Right. And looking at things differently and being curious and like, she could just do that all day long. So we created a message from that we're like, okay, what do you want to say as a partner to your community? Well, I want to say, Hey I want to celebrate all the leaders in my community and at the same time, Share with you, how you can stand out with promotional items so that it's not one big [00:07:00] advertisement. It's like a really helpful, like I'm going to feature leaders while I'm also educating you about the promotional items. So that's her being that comfy couch queen. And then the way she's doing that is a podcast. And it's this kind of community celebration podcast with a little bit of education open in there that all flows from her. Why. And so every single facet of her marketing now shows that, oh my gosh, like she just cares about us. Anyone who listens to it, anyone she gives the link to like, oh, are you struggling with this? Let me help you. I have like a podcast for, I mean, you probably do this all the time, Sarah. Cause you do very specific topics. So I just want to show that like, you can take your why and weave it in to every single thing. And then anytime you're touching out to your community, they feel your. It just needs to start from the beginning.  Sarah: Yeah. I love that. I love this. How you explain the partnership piece because it is, it's kind of like this word. We're like, oh, that sounds like [00:08:00] some legal agreement maybe or something very. Right. And so when you share that way, it's like, oh yeah, I do care for my clients. I do care for my community. And it's in marketing. Well, it's all about sharing that you care and yeah. Walking your talk and it really sounds like your couch queen is, is doing a great job at that. I love that. And then of course, Bringing in my why as well. Right.  Christina: That's right. And I just want to add something else if you, because I think it matters to your audience as far as like, I'm going to call them transformational professionals, right? Like anyone who's really good at what they do and they're changing lives. Right. That's what I call you. So I set the bar high for people like. You know, transformational professionals that you need to change lives when you get out there, right. You need to actually make a difference to people's lives when you're marketing, not just phoning it in and having an accurate message about what you do. It needs to be like, whoa, like [00:09:00] that's compelling. And I just want to know more and that's because you're actually changing lives right out of. Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to add  Sarah: no, that's great. Yeah. I feel like for, if I draw the parallel, because that's kind of what we're doing, we're both marketers and we're learning from each other. And so if I look at the way I talk about it, this is the world view. I talk about sharing our worldview and yes, that we care about our clients, but that we also care about the bigger picture. So you know, the planet or yet, like you said, changing the world. So. So really showing that it's yes. It's about us and yes, it's about the transaction and the transformation, but it's also about the bigger picture as well. Yeah. So share those five archetypes. So dust. All  Christina: right, let's do it. And then we can have the conversation about yours if you want to, or mine or both. So the first one is nurture. You know, you're a [00:10:00] nurture when you absolutely love making it warm and fuzzy for everyone else. And your deep, why is making it safe for others to fix? That is a nurture adventure guides are the people. And again, I love starting with the dead giveaway. Dead giveaway for adventure guys is you're kind of impatient for people to just go for it already. And so your deep, why is you want to, you see what's possible for other people? They're big goals. And you empower them to get there by going for it yourself. So you're the one who gets people into action. Door openers are those who. Just okay. Dead giveaway here is you have 50 ideas at any given moment that could help people. There's like you have lots of perspectives and your deep, why is there are so many possibilities in perception, just perception, just in how you look at things. So I like to call door openers a diamond mind because they just see things from so many different facets, [00:11:00] a steady presence. A dead giveaway is that you really avoid marketing because you don't like getting out there and being super charismatic. And you think that you should be, that's also a dead giveaway. So your deep, why as a steady presence is you are sure people that they have, what it needs, what it takes to move forward. And you're the one with the resources, expertise, and people to make that happen. You're a celebrator or last category, completely different energy. Dead giveaway is if you're in a boring dry situation, you're like, let's give this some life. This is like Jonathan van ness on queer eye. Are you with me that I don't know if you know who he is, but he's like super flamboyant anyway. So your deep, why is bringing the good life to others? You want to bring the good life to others and you do it with your own natural flair, whether it's humor fun. Design sense, who knows?  Sarah: Right. So kind of bringing beauty and, and yeah, just kind of like [00:12:00] a positive vibe to you. To your audience or to your marketing. Nice. I took some notes. I have them all down. Nurture door opener, steady presence. I'm missing one. Celebrate adventure. Yeah. Adventure guides. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I took the quiz. Maybe I should have not taken the quiz and then just kind of guessed which one I was. But I did take your assessment. So that's an innate marketing genius forward slash assessment. So our listeners can take it as well. And. Drum roll. I'm a nurturer and a door opener. I was actually ending up with two results, I guess, because the,  Christina: that is common  Sarah: and it's common. Yeah. So  Christina: I'm going to ask you Sarah, which one seems more prominent if there is one towards one? Yeah,  Sarah: I would definitely say the nurture is, is kind of where I [00:13:00] feel like I'm most at home. I do like the. What did you say? The diamond? Yeah, the diamond Ryan's mind. Yeah. That resonates as well. But I do, I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. So really just image of the mama bear really resonates with me. I feel like, you know, come in, come in, I'll keep you safe and I'll host a space. And, and so that, yeah, that is definitely me, but, but then some of the other ones actually resonate as well. Definitely not the last one to celebrate Tori kind of aspect. That's that's not me. I do have, I do feel like there's a lot of steady presences in the audience, in our listeners. You know, there are people who are like, oh, I just can't be bothered with the marketing should. And so I like what you said about it, and maybe you can repeat that. [00:14:00] Would their role is in marketing.  Christina: Totally. And I'm actually going to be holding a special workshop just for steady presences. For that very reason. I do want to say before I answer that I'm also a nurture with a side of door opener, so on that level and for me, I'm a nurture of great ideas in others. That's how that all kind of comes together. Like if you came up to me after a talk or something and said, oh, I just got off. You know, new perspectives and like, I made it safe for you to go there when I give my talk and then I would just start crying because I'm like, that's my mission. Thank you. Hear you. Yeah. Yeah. So as far as steady presence, One thing that I've noticed is incredibly powerful. Like when I watch a steady presence geek out, like really geek out about something, I have no interest in somehow. And this is just, you know one person saying it, but I've been watching this for years. Each time. There's something riveting about watching a steady presence, go into the [00:15:00] depth of what they know and what they do. Like I watched one guy give a talk about auto and home insurance. It's something that I have no special interest in, but I just couldn't stop watching him and listening. And it was just, why am I suddenly riveted to this particular person? And I've always been interested in that. Like, you know, let's say Sarah, you talk about, you know, purpose and marketing and all kinds of rich juicy topics. But if another person talked about it, who might have a very different why that. Then no one would be interested like that happens all the time. And so that's sort of why I feel like the architects are really helpful because it explains the intangible thing that's happened. Hmm, behind all the messaging. Why am I reverted to you, but not riveted to this other person? Who's basically telling me a similar message, but I just don't feel anything compelling going on over there. So that's what I'm always looking for anyway. So for steady presence it is really [00:16:00] powerful for you to be a pillar. Right. Like, we lean on you to be that steady presence. It's such a gift and you typically have the deep resources, deep expertise, deep network, and all you have to do in your marketing. I'm just going to give you a nugget right now is to go deep into one of those things and then share it with. Right. So if you're some kind of a health and wellness professional, and you're going to a program like a conference and you're learning something, then like you could just share a really juicy deep nugget or an article or whatever that shows the riches and the depth and the deliciousness of what you're learning. And don't worry that we even understand a word of what you're just right. Like it's not that doesn't matter what matters is. You're showing us how much, you know, and that's what brings us two years like, oh my gosh, he just knows so much about our groups. This is crazy. Like, I'll never, I don't need to know about Yara group, but she certainly does. And oh my gosh, I [00:17:00] can't wait to see her because she's just the queen of knowledge. And when you display it that way, it's very powerful. To your audience. I love saying that it's very generous to your audience. Don't worry if we keep up with you. I have an attorney who's like an HR labor law attorney. She sends out these really long, you know, in marketing, you're supposed to keep things short, really long in-depth newsletters and they're gorgeous. And it's just like, oh my gosh, this is so helpful to understand, especially around COVID all the changing labor laws and it really educated her audience. Like this is when you need to pick up the phone and call. And, and the, the message underneath the message is look how much she knows she's on top of it. She's like so helpful. She's a great educator. I want to work with her. So that's one thing is sharing the depth of your stuff and expertise, resources, people. The other thing that's really compelling is if you're involved as a leader in your community, like you're on a board, you're doing a volunteer thing. Like [00:18:00] whatever you do, you're raising money. That even if it has nothing to do with what you actually do in your work share about that, the reason it is compelling for you is that you are a pillar and you're acting like one. It just tells us we can lean on you even more than we already are. And that's why we hire you. I find  Sarah: it so interesting that what you're talking about, I'm sure for a lot of people they're like, but that's not marketing. And that's exactly what we're trying to say, right? It's like, well, actually you need to, in your mind. And I often find like it's a mindset thing, especially for study presences, probably it's a mindset thing because the minute you tell people to do marketing, to market their business, they get into this frozen mode and they feel like I have, I don't know how I don't have anything to say, but when you give them permission, like you just said, well, just share in depth about what it [00:19:00] is, you know, your knowledge, your expertise, then it's like, oh, I can do that. You know, I have lots of things to share it, but it's like this mindset thing that you have to somehow switch on where you are. This is marketing. Believe me, you're doing marketing right there.  Christina: Well, I always ask, you know, are you, do you consider yourself to be a compelling expert of what you do because when you're a compelling expert, that just means that, you know, you're standing out from the crowd you're, you're magnetizing in some way, some way, and you obviously know your stuff. So if you feel like you are being a compelling expert, I mean, sometimes people don't want to be a compelling expert cause it's a little bit it's down the path. I think when not everyone is ready to really stand out like that, I respect that. Right. We are all on our trajectory. But if somebody wants to be that, I say, wouldn't it be fantastic to be that [00:20:00] like, who cares about. How much you hate marketing? I work with tons of people who just like, I hate marketing and but they get past it when they realize how much. How much service they can offer and also how energizing it can be, because here's the other thing, like when you're operating from your, why it's actually energizing. The comfy couch queen is doing her podcast and every single time she does, she's got way more energy to devote to all the rest of her work for that day. That's the kind of marketing I want people to have.  Sarah: Yeah, no, totally. It reminds me, I think I heard you say on another podcast or somewhere you talk about the marketing brain and the client service brain. And I think I love that and people will really get this visual. So what are they? And what's the difference between the two?  Christina: Yeah, so marketing. Is innately expansive. Like you just want to go out and connect out with more and more people. So it's always that can get grabby and greedy and it's like, [00:21:00] oh, I have to do this app. Or I have to do this strategy or like, I'm a marketing professional that helps people with this every single day. And I wrestle with it, like, should I be on clubhouse? Clubhouse has gotten a little quieter now, but like there's always something, you know, doing the Instagram reels or whatever. Everybody's up to pressure, pressure, pressure to just so think about like, from that mind frame, what kind of choices you're gonna. Okay. So that's one, the client, the client service mindset is where you're really in touch with the value, the actual value that you provide your clients. So one way to tune into that is to contemplate five representative clients and just really get curious about the kind of value you provide them. And then. Create your marketing after you've really gotten clear about that. Like, what is it they truly needed from you? Even if they might've said they wanted this over here, when you really dug in and you're like, this is actually what they need. So that's what I'm going to talk about in my marketing. [00:22:00] So to me, those mindsets are worlds apart. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And yet what we often see out there is. Targeted towards the marketing brain, you know, the latest things you need to have and the latest platforms you need to be on all these marketing sheds that we're constantly yeah, kind of. Being invited to look at. And yet if we're in the service brain, we're actually much more in connection and marketing is connection. So we're much more in connection with our ideal clients. That's so true. I want to go back to the nurture and door openers. So once I do the assessment, right, I know, okay, this is my archetype. What does that mean for me? What do I do with this information? How can. Come up with a strategy from those archetypes one or two, whatever it comes out. Christina: Yes. So first of all, assessments are not [00:23:00] perfect. So I just want to put that in there. And one, one thing that it always invite people to do is, you know, you can always sign up to hang out with me for 30 minutes and we can really cause I muscle test people on there and I could do it with you just to double check, but I muscle test to make sure that we've landed on the right one. That's the thing, but I mean, Anyone who's listening to this probably has a lot of exploration of their own intuition. So like intuitive for yourself now that you've heard all five types, right? Like, so that then when you take the assessment, I have created these five love letters or whatever you want to call them about like celebrating what it means to be a nurture and a door opener. And one of those invites you to have like a. You know, what do you even call it? Like a workbook to take the nurture energy and put it into action. Like really start creating messaging out of that place. And also looking at, you know, what's a brand like for nurtures. I think it's been a long time since I put the report together, but I think I said [00:24:00] Airbnb and you know, Airbnb just made. It's very cozy. Like it just makes everybody comfortable, whatever, like some kind of reference like that. So that's another step as far as landing on a strategy, you know, that is the work that I do with clients in my compelling expert program. It's a four-month program. I also have a, because I've been in business for six years doing. I created like a self study course called one voice, one strategy. And that, you know, if you're a self study or not, everybody is you can just go and knock that one out. But let me just share with you how I help people determine their strategy. Like, you know, you're a nurture with a side of door opener. So from the. I also want to know how you naturally connect with people, right? Like, are you the one that loves to get up on stage and wow. People, you know, from while the audience, are you the one that loves small format workshops or you love being on camera or, I mean, there's just like lots of different ways to connect. And what are your business needs? Do you need to grow your [00:25:00] list? Do you need to just, you know, I have several clients. They're doing fine, but they just need a refresh, like they're at a plateau. So, you know, this is a really great, like refueler and that's true for a couple of podcasts, people that I have, like, they're doing fantastic. They're great marketers, but it's like, they're bored. So let's give it some life. And. So business needs and your, your archetype and your, the way that you naturally connect with people. So then I'll, I'll sit down with somebody and we'll chat about it for 90 minutes and really go deep. Like let's because what inevitably happens is there's one. Beautiful way for you to be out in public. That bubbles to the surface, like when I first started doing this, I'm like, I'm just making this up as I go along. I'm just hoping that every client, I have lands on one strategy and I just would sort of sweat and be really nervous with all my first clients, but it worked every time. Mm, every [00:26:00] time. So maybe the most important thing I can impart is that believe that you have a really powerful core strategy, that could be the engine of everything else. That's sort of like part two of my message. It's like, you've got this. Why it's your marketing archetype, but also you have this. Like for me right now it's talks and when it's in person, nothing better than that. Right. So totally excited for things to start opening up again. And then, you know, I would call podcast a sort of subcategory of talks. So, but for some people it's, let's do, you know, an event series and have a bunch of gatherings that are strategic and it just depends. And maybe it's time for you to write your book. That's another. You know, and by the way, I cannot wait to read your mark, your your marketing book. Like I'm like I, because you and I are so similar in our approach and I have not written my marketing book yet. I wrote my mindset book, but not my marketing books. So I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally have to.[00:27:00]  Sarah: Thank you. Yeah, it is really amazing. I was just going to say before you said that comment about the book and how we're similar. It's amazing. What you are talking about, I'm talking about in the, in the frame of the marketing superpower, the gentle marketing superpower, it's that kind of overlap between yes. Your people, what you your personal preference and then the, the, the connection, where do you want to hang out? Right. And it. It really gives you the permission to do what feels good to you. I think that is the biggest takeaway from all of this to do what feels good and not to follow all the guru's latest strategy or what they say they have, you have to do. Right. And, and, and, and, and I think that is just so. Powerful, but it's also so such a big relief. When you can say, I can just focus on one [00:28:00] thing that I'm already good at and that I can get better and better at it in that will be enough. I think there's just a sister of big relief. And  Christina: another, another caveat to that. Yes. It's something you're good at, but I also try to give my clients that edge. Right. Like the, the thing that's gonna push them. Right. So, you know, I worked with a life coach who she's like, well, I used to help other speakers with their things. And I'm like, honey, it's time for you to be a speaker. Like she kept saying those people are the speakers. And I just knew. Just from, you know, working deeply with her, it's your turn. And that was you wouldn't say, oh, that's my strength. And I'm great at it, but it was her comfort edge and she knocked it out of the park. So that's, that's another thing, like, I think that keeps us interested. Right. You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna make it sound like it's another full-time job. This is the kind of strategy where like you give a lot of, you give a lot of love in the beginning just to [00:29:00] develop. You know, the foundation, whether it's your talk or whatever, and then it just pays dividends for years,  Sarah: if you do it right. No, totally. Yeah. This is another thing I want to talk to you about, because I think we have that in common as well. The bringing back the humanity to marketing. So how do you talk about it with your clients? The whole bringing back the human aspect.  Christina: Yeah. And it's like, you have your book marketing, like we're human. My talk, my signature talk is. Marketing for humans, bringing the human back into marketing. You  Sarah: go  Christina: and pretty much it's w it's the conversation you and I are having right now. I actually have it as an intro course called the three secrets to getting great clients by being you. And so the first one is know your, why. The second one is find the solid strategy. That's going to be your engine and your fuel. And then the third one, which I'll say now, cause that's kind of the missing piece is the [00:30:00] mindset piece, the the contribution mindset. So just to be really specific about that, and I've, I've just wrote a book last year, it's called the generosity practice. I didn't think I could actually teach it on paper. It took me so long to really just sit down and knock that out. Like it was a two year process, but anyway this is about. Like okay, Sarah, if right now you were to wander around your town where you live or your beautiful city. Cause I know where you live and you could offer every stranger the most. Just a gift that would delight you. Like I actually remember being in Lozan and there's this place there was, this is like 25 years ago. There was a place that was like a little cafe that had the rich. Almost like putting like hot to the cathedral. I know that really have to climb up there to get it is like, I've never forgotten that it's been so many years since I had that. And I was like, [00:31:00] if I were there and I were you, if I could give that to every stranger that would delight me and probably make them happy. So if I were to ask you what would be your version of that to give to. Sarah: Would it have to be something like tangible or in dental?  Christina: It can be, and it has nothing to do with your real capacity to give it. It's just something in your own heart that would delight you,  Sarah: right? Yeah. If I think about my work it would definitely be this permission piece. I feel like that's the biggest feedback I get from the book is people reading my book, say. Thank you. Thank you for the permission to do marketing. Like it feels good to me. So it would be going around, handing out permission, slip saying you can do it however you want. And that goes beyond marketing. I think it really just goes with business. Be who you are in business.  Christina: Yeah. So just to take that up a notch, like what color would the permission slip be? Sarah: [00:32:00] It would be. Emerald green.  Christina: Ooh. And if you were to put it like in a little cool envelope to make it a little more special, like maybe what would that look like?  Sarah: I think it would be a gold envelope, like really sick paper. Probably like one of these old seals on yeah.  Christina: We're, I'm taking this with you, Sarah is that, you know, you can go into a space of delight. Like you can even just leave the, well, this is my mission in life and I'm here to bring permission to everyone and that's what they love from me. Like there's also a space for you to be like, oh, I get to give people like these cool gold envelopes with like the Emerald green inside, and this is going to be awesome. So if you take that out to the outermost limits, that's the essence of the practice, like what feels good to offer to life today? And it really allows you the space to step back from your. And all of the sheds and all the expectations and just [00:33:00] decide, I would love to be an offering in this way today. And you could, there's so many ways to go at it, right? You can do it. What we just did. You can also think of a person that you love in your life and like what you would love to offer them. You can think about like what you'd love to offer the whole wide world. And then the deepest level of the practice. Let me just quiet my mind. And this is where it just sitting for 10 minutes is really powerful. You just sit for 10 minutes. You imagine yourself in this glorious place that makes you feel connected. And then you just wait in the unknown for like the gift, right? Like the, and my experience of this is things drop in from. I'm going to call it grace, you know, from all of life, from higher intelligence and it just drops and you're there to discern like, is this the gift or not? Yes, no. And that, that discerning process is incredibly important. Anyway, and then you land it and a lot of times people just get tears or either you're just. Oh, my gosh, this is a different day, but [00:34:00] even just for imagining what I could give to all of life today, and then you see yourself offering it as like, oh my God, what was bothering me? I forget, because this is so awesome. Like I got the rest of my day, like handled. So you can feel that that's, that's what I'm talking about. That's what helps you take rejection and not stop this subtitle to my book is 40 days to unstoppable. And that's for a reason because it makes you unstoppable. You're like, I love helping people. So that's the third piece that makes everything more human is to take control of your mindset and choose one of contribution.  Sarah: Yeah. And what did the two others again?  Christina: No, your why? So that's the marketing archetype and then pick the solid strategy. That really is your jam. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I love that. And it, in a way it's. I love how you wrote the mindset book first, and then maybe that will lead into the, the marketing book, because I F I feel like I feel the same [00:35:00] about the marketing book. It then led to the sales book. Right? I have marketing like we're human and people ask me what. What about selling? And so I had to give myself permission to write the selling, like we're human book first because I thought, well, I'm not a sales person who am I to write that? So, you know, writing a book is a journey and it's a transformation by itself. So I can't wait to you. Find out more about your book and then hopefully you'll write the marketing book too. Christina: It's out there. Just said there, Sarah: this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Christina. We'll make sure that we link to the book and your website and everything in the, in the show notes. Is there any other link you would like? Well, the, the assessment link, maybe just share that one again. So that's  Christina: innate marketing genius.com/assessment. That will get you there in eight. Is I N N a T E [00:36:00] innate  Sarah: genius. I always have one last question. And that is what are you grateful for today or this week? Christina?  Christina: I'm really thankful for a group of people today. It was 32 of them that go into the ocean with me on Wednesdays and Fridays. And it was. 39 degrees in the water this morning. So we're just, we're there together suffering for two minutes and I, I just adore  Sarah: them all 39. That must be like two degrees Celsius or something. Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. It's been a delight.  Christina: I appreciate being here.

Christina So, communications director for the National Domestic Abuse Hotline, joins us to discuss the uptick in domestic violence during the pandemic.

Do you have a family business or an otherwise complex financial situation? A neutral financial expert can be extremely helpful for bringing clarity to the financial situation and financial options available to separating couples. Simone is a Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA, CA) and Chartered Business Valuator (CBV). She is a Director in the Transactions group in the Kelowna office of Grant Thornton LLP.  Simone specialize in business valuation and litigation support related to matrimonial and other shareholder disputes. She is the Chair of the Executive of the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group and has been a member of the group since 2008.  Simone also practices in the area of mergers and acquisitions, assisting clients with buying and selling businesses in a variety of different industries. Prior to joining Grant Thornton LLP in Kelowna, Simone worked at Deloitte & Touche LLP in Toronto, as an auditor and business valuator. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: http://www.grantthornton.ca/en/                 https://collaborativefamilylaw.ca/find-professional/name/simone-brunton/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonebrunton LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simone-brunton-1b20643a/ Work Email: Simone.Brunton@ca.gt.com Work Phone: 250-712-6802   Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Christina: Today I'm talking to Simone Brunton. Simone is a Chartered Professional Accountant and Chartered Business Valuator at Grant Thornton. She's also the chair of the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group. Simone works with divorcing couples in the capacity of a financial neutral. In this interview, she shares the various ways in which a financial neutral can be helpful during the separation process, including text planning, business valuation, budgeting, and division of assets and debts. You can choose to involve a financial neutral regardless of the type of legal process you're going through, and I personally have found them to be very, very useful. Alright, here we go! Christina: Hi Simone! Welcome! I'm happy to be talking with you today. Simone: Hi! Thanks for having me. Christina: So why don't we get started by having you tell us a little bit about your self and how you got into specializing and work with divorcing couples. Simone: Okay, I'm a Chartered Accountant and Chartered Business Valuator. And I moved to Kelowna almost ten years ago and joined Grant Thornton here. And shortly after that I joined the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group, which is based out of Kelowna. So as a Chartered Business Valuator, one of the areas that we help couples going through divorce or separation with is when a business is involved. We are able to provide an independent, fair market value of the business, which can help the couple when they're looking to divide or separate their assets. This is very important because business valuation is a very complex area. It's difficult to know just by looking at the financial statements, how much the business is worth, and we find it's especially important in matrimonial situations. Because often, one spouse has much more knowledge of the business than the other, who's maybe not involved in the business. And so part of my role is to come up with an independent valuation of the business that is fair to both parties, and then helps them feel comfortable with making that decision and moving forward. Christina: Yeah, that's really great that neutral aspect of your work... So the two of them would hire you together as a trusted person to help them sort out the valuation issue. Are there other types of financial issues that you can also help with during the separation? Simone: Yeah, absolutely! Business valuation's one of them. Financial neutrals can often be involved in tax issues and helping structure things from a tax perspective. Like I mentioned, we often help with just educating both the parties to level playing field. We can also help with the division of assets. So further actually helping them sit down with the spreadsheets and split things out, as well as budgeting and forecasting, and things like that that they might need help with. Christina: OK. And do you only work through the collaborative process or would you also be involved, for example, in a mediated file, or if couples are just negotiating between lawyers but it's not a formal collaborative process? Simone: Yeah, absolutely. We do work in a collaborative process, and we do the same sorts of things outside of the collaborative process as well all the time. Christina: So, a lot of families are concerned about the costs and they're worried about bringing on more professionals than necessary. What was your take on that? And do you find it, involving a financial neutral, can actually expedite things? Simone: Yeah so, our role is to help them get to a resolution quicker. You know, if you don't have a financial neutral involved, you might spend more time arguing with things through your lawyers, and things like that which can really add up on the cost. You know, our report can be expensive to produce but it really helps the couples kinda make the decision and move on with that part of the process. The other way I feel like sometimes to look at it as that, you know, you can have two lawyers charging out at a certain rate versus one financial neutral charging out at a certain rate. So right there it's gonna be a bit more cost-effective. And also, you know, the financial neutral is specifically trained in these types of areas and they're gonna be more efficient in working through it, where as the lawyers, you know this is not their area of expertise. So you're kind of asking them to come up with that stuff and they're not gonna be as efficient getting through it. And the final way where we tend to... for some couples, can make a big difference is the tax structuring that could happen. Can save the couple a lot in taxes which can more than pay for the cost of that work or the cost of the valuation work. Christina: So I just wanted to go back to what you were saying before about working with a couple where maybe, one person has been involved in the business and is maybe more financially sophisticated than the other. And you've got one person who's just really not comfortable or familiar with the finances. In those types of situations, do you work with both people together? But also, how do you bridge that gap? What are the results that you find working with those couples? Simone: Yeah, often I'm having separate discussions with the couples. I just find that they're getting a chance to really be heard in a neutral environment and they're getting a chance to ask any question they want and not feel you know, like it's a dumb question. So generally we're usually dealing separately with them. It also allows the couples to bring up anything that they want to bring to my attention, going through the process as well. It really depends on the complexity of the situation and the person involved, but basically, yeah. We can spend a lot of time going through the valuation report with the one party and getting them more comfortable with it or allowing them to ask questions and get them  more comfortable so that they do really understand what it is they're agreeing to. And I find that that's really, really important and it's important to do it sort of separately.  We might meet with them together as well, but often in that kind of case, there's a lot of individual meetings. Christina: Yeah, and I've personally seen a lot of success with involving a financial neutral in my mediations. I've seen that somebody who was very wary and not comfortable with the opinion of the other party is a regular business accountant. By hiring the financial neutral they really got a sense of ease, and comfort that they are getting an opinion that they could really rely on that was fair and wasn't skewed in favor of the other person. So, I'm really in favor of bringing financial neutrals on whenever possible. What would you suggest the people should know ahead of time that they should get organized or know upfront before getting started? Simone: Before getting started, we're gonna require a lot of information. So maybe you know, doing a bit of gathering that information, whether it's your accountant has it or if you have copies or whatever sort of financial statements, tax returns – that kind of information we're gonna need that to get started. Pretty much you know, we like to kinda take a quick look at that before we get too deep into it because help it can help us scope out the engagement and kind of let the parties know what the cost might be upfront, or at least a quote. And it can also determine what type of report we would need to do, or what type of work we'd need to be done. That's really important to sort of get that information to us off the bat, we'll have a quick look at it and can kind of have a better idea at the scope of what we're looking at, how long it's gonna take, and all those sorts of things. Christina: OK, and what kind of options are there for different levels of reporting? Simone: So there's three levels of reports that a business valuator can provide. So one is a calculation level report, that's sort of the lowest level of report which is kinda like your Notice to Reader financial statement. And then we have the estimate level of report, and then the comprehensive report. Comprehensive reports are usually for very highly litigious high-dollar value situations. So depending on the size of the final amount of money at stake, that's usually where we see those. For most divorcing couples we would normally recommend estimate level reports. That report is able to be used in court if it needs to be. And you know, pretty thorough analysis of the company, what's going on. In the collaborative process because the parties are agreeing to not go to court. Sometimes you can prepare a calculation level report. In specific cases which is the less robust report and a little more cost-effective. But again, only under that process since there is an agreement not to go to court because that type of report is not appropriate for court because less work is done. Christina: OK. If people are trying to figure out whether or not it's a good idea to go ahead and get a business valuation in their case, is there some kind of benchmark that you would use, for example a certain level of revenue or a certain level of profit, I don't... I'm not sure how you look at that, to say yes in your case I think it would be worthwhile to go ahead and get this done? Simone: Well, I would say whenever there's a business involved, you should at least talk to a business valuator. You can't really set it based on the revenue or profit because there's so many different expenses and things that can go through that and impact the value of the business overall. But definitely, if there's a business involved, it's a good idea to get a business valuator involved. Now, you know, we're gonna be upfront at what I was saying before about getting the information upfront and kinda high-level look, so you know, if I get it and it's clear that value's going to be zero, we'll have that discussion upfront with the parties and whether they want us to go through the business valuation, we can definitely scope it out for them. But it's definitely worth at least having us take a look at it. And then other times get involved even there's no business would be there's complex tax structures. But usually those are related to businesses, or there's this really high-dollar value net worth of individuals and again, what we're talking about before if one party's been really involved in the finances, and the other has no involvement, we can help with that education piece as well. Christina: Do you get involved with helping with budgeting at all? Some couples I know, one person is in charge of most of the finances and the other person, unfortunately, may not have an any experience with budgeting or really have a handle on what day to day life costs. So is that something that you help with? Simone: Certainly in the collaborative process, that's part of the financial neutral's role if the couple needs it. So certainly, we can get involved in that and forecasting and things like that. Christina: OK, awesome! So is there anything else that you'd like people to know about who might be wondering whether financial neutral will be helpful in their case? Any advice that you have for them? Simone: Yeah, I think that besides the stuff we've already talked about, you know having a financial neutral, and I think we have sort of touched on this earlier. Really allows for fair settlement for both parties, and I think makes both parties feel more comfortable that they're getting a fair settlement. You know, because you got that independent expert that's providing the answers rather than friends who are biased and not experts on those areas, or lawyers who aren't really experts on those areas either. So I think I can give couples a lot of comfort that they've done the right thing and they know that they're having a fair, independent opinion. Christina: OK, fantastic! And what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they would like to seek out some help? Simone: So probably by phone or email. My phone number's 250-7126802, and my email is simone.brunton@ca.gt.com. And there's probably some information on me also available on the Grant Thornton website, which would be www.grantthornton.ca. Or www.collaborativefamilylaw.ca. Christina: OK great! Lots of options. We'll have all of those links at the show notes as well. Awesome! That was really, really helpful information, Simone. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Simone: Thank you for arranging it. That was great!

Most people think that the only way to go through separation is by hiring a family lawyer, going to court and letting the judge decide who gets what. No so! In this interview, Nicole Quallen shares her perspective on respectful, out-of-court resolutions available for separating couples. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website:  https://www.twofamilieslaw.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/twofamilieslaw/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwoFamiliesLaw Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/10651550/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Transcript: Christina: Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Nicole Quallen. Nicole is a mediator and non-traditional family lawyer in Durham, North Carolina. The non-traditional component of her practice is that she has limited herself to entirely out-of-court resolution for her clients. Her law firm is called Two Families Law, and she helps separating couples build two healthy families through negotiated separation agreements, mediation, and collaborative law. I think that you'll find the discussion with Nicole really inspiring. The conversation with Nicole will really provide you a lot of hope, if you're going through separation because she explains the various processes that she has available for clients to help them sort out their issues without going to court. The different processes involve different levels of support, depending on what the clients need. Nicole is a passionate advocate for respectful family resolution. I think you're gonna enjoy this interview. Here we go. Christina: Welcome Nicole! I'm so happy that I have you here with me today. Nicole: Thank you, Christina! And I'm so glad to be talking to you, too. Christina: I'm particularly excited to have you on because you take such a positive approach to the experience of divorce, with your focus on resolution rather than inflammation. And I'm wondering if we can just start out by having you talk a little bit about yourself and what brought you to family law. Nicole: Sure! Well, yeah, family law really found me. I actually didn't even take family law in law school. I but went through a divorce. My second and third year of law school. And found myself after graduation with an offer from a local family law firm that seemed to speak to me. So I went right there  and sort of hit the ground running at a very, what I would call a traditional family law litigation firm here in North Carolina where I was, you know, I think I took a deposition on my third day there. And I stayed there for about two years, and I, say I loved-hated it. I loved the working with families, I loved that it just being in that, that really sacred inner space of family, and I loved the intellectual challenge of it. But I hated feeling emotionally drained. And I ultimately left that practice feeling that I wasn't actually helping these families. That's what I wanted to do, and was trying to do. But I often felt like that the trials that end... that's what most of our families are going through were court cases. And I felt like they were not being served; that they were leaving core really with a lot of trauma that to us, and I felt really conflicted about it and left. And I actually locked the law altogether for about three years. Christina: Oh, wow! Nicole: Yeah, I moved to New York City and started working in the, the non-profit sector. I thought it was sort of my penance. I thought the law is not for me, I'm not meant to be a lawyer, you know. There's something about the law that felt so good, but you just thought 'I just can't do it'. And then slowly, kept creeping back into law and family law in particular. Friends would be going through separation and would ask for my help. And quickly once I started doing that work on my own, I realized I still love family law, I wanna help these families. I just wanna do it in my own way. I know there's gotta be a way. And so, about two years ago is when I started my own practice where I work with families exclusively out of court. Christina: OK, that's fascinating. Well, I can totally relate to the love-hate part of the traditional family law model. My experience was very similar – that I loved working directly with families and having the impact in such an important part of people's lives. But the actual litigation process was so traumatic that I, too left for a different take on the whole process. Why don't we talk a little bit about how you do that out-of-court process now? What are the options for clients? And yeah, what does that look like? Nicole: Yeah, great question. I'm always reading about how you do it too, and I know there are different ways in different states and countries. So in North Carolina, I usually give my clients, when they come to see me at a consult. I boil down that out-of-court process here into three possibilities. One is mediation, which is you know, traditionally what you would think of and where I would serve as a mediator. So I'm trained as a mediator, I would sit down with both of the spouses and be really a guide communication-wise, where I'm trying to help them to have the discussions they need to resolve all of the issues of their marital estate – custody of their children, if they have it, division of all their assets and debts, and then any support payments that need to go from one party to the other. And in mediation in North Carolina actually, I know this is different than what you're able to do Christina. Here, as a mediator, I'm not allowed to draft anything for the parties. So I guide them to the decisions, and then they need to go to a third party attorney and turn that into what here is a separation agreement, which is a fully legally binding private contract, and forcible in court, but you don't have to go there if, you know, as long as everyone abides by the terms you never need to go to court. So that's, that's mediation. Christina: OK, so let me ask you a quick question about that. When they hire the third party attorney and assuming that that attorney still only represents one client, so do they have to go from mediation sort of into the adversarial process to get the draft, negotiate it and complete it? Nicole: Yeah, you're right in that assumption. It's really... I mean mediators, we don't like that process. So yes,  they will go to an attorney and that attorney can only represent one party. In all of the cases that I have done, only one party has ever hired the attorney. And that attorney really works as sort of a scribe, and they are putting into writing what the parties have agreed on. And I think, you know, if you've done a good job in mediation then hopefully everyone agrees by that time. But there's certainly exactly the possibility that, you know, everyone thought they agreed in mediation and then when the attorney drafts it up, that one party says 'Uh-uh'. And then yes, you can be right back into a litigation [inaudible]. What I would tell folks is, if something happens in that draft that doesn't look good to you, come back to mediation and we'll try to resolve it there. Which actually has never happened to me. I think attorneys who do that drafting hopefully, you know, have a good idea of how to translate the sort of summary we give them in mediation to an agreement. Christina: Oh, good. What I sometimes see is that, well I don't see that very often because here I am alone to do the drafting. But what I've seen in the past is that people can take a mediated agreement to one lawyer to draft and then when the other person goes to get independent legal advice. Then you've got the two attorneys on board, who are now sort of inflaming a conflict that didn't seem to really exist before. And they seem to be on board in mediation and then it goes a little bit sideways with the two attorneys on board. Nicole: Exactly. You know, I think that I'm mostly able to avoid that because I have relationships with some attorneys who respect and also participate in the mediation process. So when they get the agreement, they don't really want to inflame. But yes, totally. I mean, that's how just exactly like our experience over here which is that as soon as you got two attorneys – two litigation-minded attorneys – involved no matter how much the parties have come to a resolution, you just... you never know what's gonna get brought up. Christina: And so tell us a little bit about collaborative law. I understand you're quite involved in the collaborative law process. Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So yes, we are talking a little bit about the options and one is mediation. The second one is sort of a negotiated separation agreement, which we'll talk about later. And the third is what is called in our statutes, collaborative law. In North Carolina, we got it in 2003, I think. And a good amount of the states have a collaborative law statute. And so here's the process, it's super cool. In collaborative law, both parties need to hire an attorney who is trained and ideally experienced in collaborative law. And everyone signs a pledge saying, 'We pledge to work through the legal issues of our divorce together. We pledge not to file a lawsuit and to go to court. We are honest and we're gonna disclose, you know, all of our finances, you know like what you do in court. And then everyone meets in... we come four-way conferences, but you meet in these conferences, or both attorneys and both parties get in the same room. And you talk through issue by issue and we do it in a way where the goal is not for each party to get sort of, you know, the best they can get, the most money. But with an eye towards having two successful individuals and successful children going forward to a workable fair agreement. So the hallmarks of that are that you sign this pledge saying you're not gonna go to court, which doesn't mean you can't. If the process fails, the parties can go to court, the attorneys cannot. So when the attorney signs that pledge, that's it. And the parties, they can go to court, they'd need new attorneys. Yes, so that's the basis of the process. And the other hallmark of the process is that you can hire what we call financial neutrals or child specialist neutrals, to come and join the process. You know, traditionally in litigation, you hire, each side may hire a child psychologist to come and testify about what's in the best interest of the child, and you know, why one parent is miserable and one is wonderful, or what not. And in collaborative, both parties would agree to use one – either child specialist or financial specialist. We use those when folks have you know, complicated finances, businesses, you know tons of real estate properties, or something like that. We have these awesome financial specialists who are trained in collaborative divorce, who can come in and give really good advice about how to make smart financial decisions. Christina: Yeah, I think that's a real benefit to have the parties choose one professional who they trust. And then you use that as a basis for the discussion of how to make their decisions. Nicole: It makes all the difference. If you think about it with, I mean, I'm sure in litigation you saw dueling child specialists. And if you have one doctor saying, 'Mom is a great parent and Dad is, you know, really damaging this child,' and the other '...and Dad has one of the opposite.' It's like... very difficult to get past that. You know. Christina: Yeah, so one of the benefits that I saw when I was practicing collaborative law was that it gave both people the comfort of still having somebody sort of on their side, even though it is meant to be a team approach. So that's one of the benefits that I see of collaborative law over mediation that some people really like to feel like they've got somebody looking out for their interests and protecting them. What would you say are some of the other benefits of the process? Nicole: Yeah, that's great. Everyone has an [inaudible]. So the benefits... the first benefit that always comes to mind in collaborative law versus, you know, sort of court is that you are avoiding the trauma of a trial. The benefits of having the third party neutrals there. The biggest benefit I think about is that lots of other types of divorce settlements can leave you feeling 'OK, you are satisfied in the moment', and then long term, they might break down or you might start to question 'Did I get a good deal?', 'Did I make a bad deal?'. And I think collaborative is the most protective process where people who leave that process when you have sat in on these sessions, you know, and we do four, five, six sessions. I think everyone leaves feeling like 'I put it all out there. I listened to everything, you know, my spouse had to say. I really understand what we came to'. I think there, you know, agreements that people feel really invested in and are much less likely to breakdown over time. So I think that's an emotional benefit you get. And then depending on how you do it, collaborative divorce is almost always cheaper than going to court. Christina: Would you say that's because it generally resolves faster? Nicole: Well, I think... I think collaborative divorce for me any way tugs in more expenses than mediation. But I think discovery in a traditional trial where both parties are, you know, requesting just scads of documents and hiring a private investigator – that process. What I saw in my practice is that that process alone costs 10, 20 plus thousands of dollars. Because you're preparing for everything that could go wrong and you're leaving no stone unturned, versus in collaborative divorce, we send our clients a list and say, 'OK...' you know I have my clients put things on drop boxes and say, 'OK. This is what you need. You need to turn a roll on these documents...' and they upload them themselves. So that's, you know, virtually a free process. And then yes, again I would say they resolve more quickly than the full negotiation process of a trial, you know, from start to finish. And those in North Carolina take, probably an average of a year – often more. Christina: Hmm, it's pretty similar here. (…) Are you able to able to get involved with families at  different stages of separation? Do you ever have clients come to you for collaborative law who, maybe started in litigation and then they decide what's not the route for them? Nicole: Yeah, interesting. I'd love to hear your answer on this too. So, I think it's the very best if you can go collaborative first, because like we talked about where you meet with a litigator and they start to scare you. It's hard to undo that fear, I think? I've done a bunch of consults with folks who are in the litigation process; they're really unhappy. They come to me and they want to try collaborative. But I find it those folks who have trouble getting their spouse on board. So I think it's hard to go back from the path of litigation. I've done it a couple of times where... I guess in one case, one of the parties lost their attorney so they  were willing to try. So the answer is I think it's far better to do at the beginning and I... I'm willing to work with people in any part of the process. I just find it's hard to get them out of the litigation track once they're there. Christina: Yeah, that's interesting. So when I was practicing law for the collaborative files that I did, they were for clients who came in pretty much the beginning of their separation and made a conscious choice that's how they wanted to handle the whole transition. I don't think I had any people come in after they have started litigation. And I think you're right that you can't go back from that. Litigation really brings out the worst in people, right? Like you said about getting an expert to say the other party is just a terrible parent and traumatizing the child and... I mean, sometimes sure, that does happen and maybe true but for the most part, the adversarial process of trying to put your own case forward and trying to destroy the other person's case – particularly when they're parents. It's something that people have difficulty having just real conversations with each other after that. Nicole: Yeah, totally. And you can totally see why, I mean, it would be very difficult attacking someone's parenting is so personal. Yeah. So that's why yeah, I totally agree. Anybody I hear who even has a whisper of divorce I say, 'Let me give you a free consult please! Please talk to me before you talk to a litigator.' Because even... and you know, litigators are doing their best in their doing, and pour into work and that I don't think that they're all awful by any means. But it's just a different process, like you said it's completely adversarial. And once you start it, it's really hard to go back. Christina: Right, I mean, the adversarial process was designed in a way that it's appropriate for people who never have to deal with each other again. So if you've got a car accident, and you're suing the person who hit you, or like a medical malpractice suit or something like that, where there's no need to protect the relationship. It's a great process, I get the information out there, and helps the judge get to the truth. But it is so inappropriate for family situations, particularly parents who will have to deal with each other for the rest of their lives. Nicole: Yeah. Completely agree. Christina: Do you have any advice for somebody who is looking at their options, how they can present the option of collaborative law to their spouse? Nicole: Yeah, I love that question. So I do this all the time, you know. I meet at a consult with only one of the spouses, and I do consults with both spouses too, plenty. But if I'm meeting with one spouse and they say, 'Well, I really want this but I'm not sure. My spouse is going to.' What I say to folks is 'OK, so the two main motivations to try to do something like collaborative mediation, separation agreement... the core of why I do this work is, you know, we want to preserve our co-parenting relationship, we don't wanna go through the trauma of court. All those sort of emotional and human factors. And then I say, 'And if that doesn't speak to your spouse, maybe because they're feeling afraid, vulnerable, you know plenty of good reasons that we could talk to if we got to a consultation. You know, and then I say that speaks to almost everybody is money. And I say, 'Tell your spouse that the average, you know, full custody and equitable distribution trial in North Carolina, the average trial cost is $37,000. Tell them that, tell them that they'll need you know, $2,000 a team or to hire an attorney. Tell them that I'll give you a free consultation and that most of my clients are out the door and under $3,000 and see if maybe they're willing to try it.' And one of those two methods seems to be pretty persuasive. And I also tell people that we just talk about which is don't wait. As soon as you feel comfortable having that talk, before your spouse goes to see a litigator, try to have the conversation. So... Christina: I think time is of the essence for sure. OK, so why don't you tell me about your negotiation process? Nicole: OK, so we talked about mediation and then the collaborative divorce. And actually, the bulk of my process is this third sort of funky process that I do that's the most popular and I think it's actually honestly workaround because I can't be like you do where I'm meeting with both parties and mediating the discussion and then drafting for them. And so what I'm doing with a lot of my clients is  I'm representing one of the parties, working with them to draft a separation agreement that covers all of their issues just like any other due process is. And then the other party sort of receives that agreement reviews it, maybe hires an attorney to review it. Maybe not. And then sign. And you know, there's something not ideal about that process because I can only represent one party. And I wish I could do what you did where I, you know, really work with both parties. And sometimes the other party will sit in on meetings and I have to make it, you know, very clear that I can represent them, and that I can advise them. But that they are, they are too sitting on it. And then I tell folks, 'OK, if the other party is gonna hire an attorney to review or to participate in this process, I really recommend that you work with another attorney who is collaboratively-trained, like I am, to avoid like we talked about inflaming and this sort of bringing up financial issues that might cost more on legal fees and whatever benefit a party. So that's actually the bulk of my process. And it's  a little, like I said... It's a little structurally funky, but it works for tons of people who come to my office, and they say 'We're separating.... We agree on you know, 70% of our issues... We need some help making them legal... We need some help thinking about things we might have missed. But you know, we definitely don't wanna go to court and we don't wanna start a big fight. So that's how a lot of those cases get wrapped up and it winds it being much more cost-effective to them. So I think they just don't need all of the support that the collaborative process provides because they really do agree in most issues. Christina: So, what is exciting in your business right now? Is there anything that you'd like to share that you think will be helpful for people? Nicole: Yeah. Man, I think this work is so exciting all the time! Something I'm sort of currently passionate about myself and the other collaborative practitioners in my community is that we want more attorneys to do this work. And I think that the client base is out there. I talk to litigators who I think is skeptical of that. But I have been doing this for less that two years. And I have just got clients after clients saying, 'I didn't know this was an option, I'm so glad you have this...' And in my one city of 250,000 people, there are two of us who practice collaborative law full time. And the other one, my mentor, is retiring. So I'm desperate to get more attorneys doing this work. I think collaborative attorneys... I think we have a lot less stress and some more job satisfaction; I think my clients are amazing. So, something I'm excited about is just spreading the word within the bar and trying to talk about how we can you know, just make collaborative divorce be a bigger portion of what's going on in family law. Christina: Hmm, there's the traditional view is that... Well, family law is just difficult and you'll eventually burn out. But I agree it's really great to be able to share the different methodologies where you can actually enjoy your work and feel like you're doing good and still be working with a professional. Nicole: Yeah, totally. I mean, I know you're a believer and you're leading the call here. But to me it just seems like night and day, as far as quality of life. So, yeah. And right in the different methodologies, actually I love doing all the continuing education that I do as a collaborative lawyer you know, just learning about conflict and psychology and human needs, and how people function rather than learning about you know, how to wire tap your access... cellphone to trying to like catch her doing whatever. That's just... it makes me happier and you know, better. Christina: Wiretapping is not your cup of tea! Nicole: Yeah, right! It just... It just doesn't quite feel like what I always wanted to do to make the world close. Christina: Oh, that's awesome. So what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they'd like to find out more? Nicole: Yeah so, my  practice is called Two Families Law, and my website is spelled out twofamilieslaw.com. I have a pretty active Facebook and Twitter page where I share ideas about collaborative law, conflict resolution, some of the reasons I do this work and stories from, like our community of collaborative professionals. So those are just great ways to follow about collaborative divorce. And then all my personal contact information is on my website and I'm just always too over-the-moon-happy to talk to anybody about the practice or why someone should either do this work or should try out the collaborative divorce. Christina: Oh that's fantastic! Well I think the people in your state are very lucky that you decided to come back to family law. Nicole: Thank you Christina! Christina: So thank you for being here today! You've shared lots of great information, and good luck with the building of the collaborative community! Nicole: Thanks, Christina! Hopefully, we talk again soon in lots of different ways.

Is a battle with lawyers the best way to resolve the details of your separation? Absolutely not! The adversarial system pits spouses against each other, leaving them and the kids stressed out with a giant legal bill and a deteriorated ability to communicate. In this episode, Christina Vinters discusses what mediation is and how it helps separating couples resolve conflicts in a way that is respectful, efficient, and designed to meet the needs of each family. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Download a complimentary copy of Pathways to Amicable Divorce. Transcript: Christina: Hello! So today we're doing something a little bit fun and I'm having the tables turned on me today. Up until now, I've been focusing on talking to people about different ways of helping you through the separation and divorce process, but today we're gonna be talking about actual dispute resolution. And so I'm here, with my husband and business partner Juris Vinters.  Juris: Hello! Christina: So Juris is going to be interviewing me today, about mediation. Juris: So maybe we can start with the broader question about what mediation is and other kinds of dispute resolution.  Christina: Okay, so a mediation is a voluntary process and it's a way of helping people resolve disagreements with a help of a neutral professional. Juris: So let's look at a couple of elements of that, so when you say it's a voluntary process does that mean that both people need to agree right off the bat? Or do you have situations where that's a little different, tell me about that. Christina: In most jurisdiction, it is something that both people need to agree to, it's something that they would need to each recognize is in their best interests to try. In some areas there can actually be a court order made that people are required to mediate before proceeding with any court applications, but generally speaking, both people will decide that they would like to mediate. They choose their mediator and then they decide how they'd like to structure the mediation.  Juris: Okay, so tell us about some different ways of structuring that mediation. Christina: Well, first of all, mediation is something that is used quite extensively around the world, and it is the way that a lot of cases are settled even when they have gone through extensive court proceedings. So in those types of cases where there has been a lot of litigation maybe several interim applications, generally the lawyers will recommend that you schedule a one-day mediation before the trial, to try to save the extensive court fees that would be required in a family case. So in that type of case, both participants and their lawyers and a neutral mediator would generally all attend in one location for a day and try to work through all of the issues. It's kind of a marathon, where you hunker down and you work and you try to hammer out all of the details before the end of the day to try to avoid the trial. Juris: Okay, so even in a lot of adversarial cases mediation actually turns out to be the way that disputes are resolved? Christina: Yeah, I mean the percentage is gonna vary by jurisdiction, but it's a very high percentage something like 95% of cases settle without going to trial. So a lot of cases take a long time going through the court process, where there's preparation for court and interim applications but the actual final trial, where a judge makes a final decision on all of the issues for example parenting, or property division that may not ever need to occur.  So getting back to the different possible structures for mediation, another structure rather than that day long marathon I was just talking about, is to do several shorter meetings. I like to do one meeting a week for one to two hours at a time. In that way, people feel the momentum of the progress their making. I'll talk more about this format a little bit later when we get into more detail about my practice.  Another option which is not one that I recommend very often, but it is a possibility and maybe a good choice in some rare circumstances is shuttle mediation. And that is where the mediator would go back and forth between the two parties. This can be helpful if tension is so incredibly high that people just absolutely can't talk to each other. It's also a possible solution in cases where there's a restraining order and they're not actually allowed to have direct communication.  Juris: Alright Christina, so why don't you tell us a little bit about your story, how did you go from practicing family law in a big firm to doing a mediation, having your own mediation only practice? Christina: Yeah, so I practiced exclusively in the area of family law for several years. Initially, I really enjoyed it, I enjoyed that direct contact with clients and helping them through what for most people is a really difficult part of their life. But over time I became really disillusioned with the traditional court process and I found that it was just costing my clients too much money, taking way too long, and the stress of the adversarial process where spouses are pit against each other's adversaries, just made communication more difficult, co-parenting more difficult and I decided I really wanted to do things differently. So I looked at all of the different ways that I could potentially help families, and I decided that from my perspective mediation is the most effective and that's where I wanted to focus my time and energy.  Juris: So tell us how writing your first book played into that decision for you. Christina: Okay, so I wrote Pathways to Amicable Divorce: Directions for the beginning of separation at the beginning of 2016. Initially, that was a bit of a marketing exercise, I wanted to write a book to help people know what I'm all about. And so I was still working at a big firm as a family lawyer at that time. But it was through the writing of that book that I really clarified my own thoughts and principles, to such an extent that I felt that I could not continue in good faith working in the adversarial process anymore. So it really spurred me on to think about how can we create a business that will work better for families and for me as a professional.  I found it quite frustrating as a family lawyer to have my clients spending so much money and time, and stress going through that period of time. Usually, a lengthy period of time, sometimes a year or two before a trial would happen. And then have the case settle at a mediation. So I wanted to try and reimagine the process and given that mediation was so successful in so many instances, I wanted to try and find a way that my clients could have that benefit without all of the expense and stress of the court preparation. And so that is how I decided to create the business model that we have now, which encourages people to try mediation right off the bat before they've ever started any kind of court proceeding.  So the way that I work with people is when they've decided to separate, the earlier the better they can contact us and then we work with them directly, generally, they will attend meetings without lawyers. A lot of people do consult lawyers in between meetings to get feedback on particular issues where there may be disagreements but it's a very directive focused process where we usually meet once per week. And those meetings can be, sometimes they're in person, but they're often by phone, or skype or zoom. By meeting once a week we keep the process moving forward, and most of our clients end up being done with a written agreement before the end of a month.  Juris: Wow, and so how does that compare to the traditional process in terms of time? Christina: Well in the traditional process where mediation is done as a last-ditch attempt before trial it can be a year or two before people try mediation. And that would generally tens of thousands of dollars of legal fees in the meantime. Juris: What kind of people are best suited to mediation, and are there people for whom mediation is not really appropriate? Christina: Well mediation is flexible that it is appropriate for most people. And it's a very low-risk strategy so there's no harm in trying it, you might lose a few weeks of time but that's about it. I've had clients who had already talked about a number of the issues and were pretty much on the same page but needed help just hammering out some final details. So that obviously works really well. But on the other end of the spectrum, I've also had clients who were not willing to speak to each other, couldn't look at each other in the eye. But with the presence of a neutral person, they were able to reach an agreement also in the same span of just a few meetings.  There are cases where there might be a very skewed power dynamic, for example, if somebody has been in an abusive situation for quite a long time and they just cannot stand up for their own rights and what they believe is fair then it may not be appropriate. But even then if they can attend with their lawyer or another support person, then even for them it may work. Juris: So what about people who say, okay my partner is really great at verbal sparring and I'm just not built that way and isn't mediation going to kind of tilt the playing field in that person's favor. How can I make sure that it's a reasonable and equitable process for me? Christina: That's not uncommon. I suppose the thing that helps set someone's mind at ease is the mediator is not a judge. So the people are not trying to convince the mediator of anything, they're not trying to bring the... well they might be trying to but it's not the mediator's job to decide who has a better argument. It's the mediator's job to find some common ground to give general legal information about the issues that are being discussed, a range of possible options and what the court may order in that type of case and to try to help them brainstorm about creative solutions. It's also the mediator's job to make sure that both people are feeling comfortable and that the process is working for them, so, for example, some people may think really fast on their feet and they're comfortable coming up with proposals on the spot, while the other person may need to really think things over and needs some time to digest so in that type of case it might be a good idea to have that person who's comfortable in the room creative proposal and then have the other person consider that in time for the next meeting to be able to come up with a response at that time. Juris: I see so it's your job as a mediator to make sure that the process proceeds in a way that both people's cognitive styles or decision-making styles are taken into account, both people are comfortable?  Christina: Yeah, I mean that's certainly the process that I follow, I can't speak for all mediators but in general that should be the principle, is that it's meeting both people's needs.  Juris: Okay, now what about a situation where one person is very much open to mediation and the other person might  be hesitant or you know might have a feeling "oh I wanna take this in front of a judge, because I'm right and the other person's wrong and what is mediation gonna do for me?" Do you ever come across those kinds of situations? Christina: Yeah, so sometimes people will have pre-conceived notions about you know maybe if it's a woman mediator she's gonna favor the wife or maybe there's just a general mistrust about professionals. The key is for both people to be in a place where they recognize that it's their own best interest to try to come up within agreement. So, sometimes with somebody like that, who's very resistant they may end up in the court system for a period of time and then they may get to a place where they've spend too much money on lawyers and too much time has passed without resolution before they get to a place where they're ready to think about mediation. But there are lots of resources that you can share in terms of trying to educate. I would encourage if you're a spouse and you would like to mediate and your spouse is reluctant, try to provide some educational resources so that they know what mediation is and they're not just making assumptions about that. So, for example, we have my book on our website, which is a free download, you don't need to give us your email or anything. And that's a book I wrote called Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and one of the components of the book looks at is what are different types of Dispute Resolution Mechanisms, so there is this section in there on what mediation is all about. Juris: Okay, that's helpful. Christina: Yeah and you can get that at modernseparations.com/separation Juris: Let's talk about the end of the mediation process, so what is the result and what kind of paperwork do you come up with and how is that used? Christina: Okay, so we're in British Columbia and here a mediator, a lawyer-mediator is allowed to draft a final separation agreement. And that's what I prepare for our clients, we go through all of the issues relating to their separations, which depending on their situation may include parenting arrangements, division of property and debt, and various details around support. So all of that is documented in a final agreement, and then as long as it is signed properly, it will be a binding legal agreement. Now if there are any issues with somebody not abiding by the agreement, it can be filed with the court for enforcement.  Juris: I see so you don't need to take an agreement to the court just as a general rule once it's been signed.  Christina: No, it's like any other contract so, for example, like if you sign an agreement with a new cell phone provider that's a legal agreement and it's not filed with the court so it's just like that. Now in other jurisdictions for example in some states, it is required that you take your mediated agreement and present it to the court, in order to have that be a final resolution, so you would just need to check in your jurisdiction what the requirements are. Juris: Maybe you could tell me about the benefits of mediation. Christina: Mediation allows couples to come up with creative solutions that are particularly suited to their own family and circumstances. They're gonna be in the best position to know their own family and their needs as well as their history, so they're able to craft an agreement with all of the nuances to ensure that it's fair and appropriate for them and something that they will be able to live with going forward. Generally, when people do craft their own agreement when they've had a hand in creating it and agreeing to the terms they're gonna be more likely to abide by the agreement rather than having terms imposed on them by a judge. Often court orders are followed up by appeals or applications to vary the order for this reason or that reason. Whereas agreements that couples enter into tend to be more durable. Juris: I see so it also helps couples communicate going forward? Would that be fair to say? Christina: Well the process does help them start to create a new model for their communication. So they're moving from being in an intimate relationship of spouses to being separated individuals and often we're talking about co-parents. So they're no longer intimate partners but they may be co-parents. And in that situation of course, it's really crucial that they'd be able to communicate well. So the mediation is a guided process which helps them learn how to communicate effectively and respectfully in their new roles. And a lot of agreements do include terms regarding how communication will occur in the future so we look at what their preferences are - whether they prefer phone or text or email and how often communication can occur we can get into a lot of detail around that to make sure that it's appropriate for them. Juris: So tell us about the benefits of mediation for families with children. Christina: Yeah, I think it's huge. Studies have shown that it's a conflict through the separation and divorce that really harm kids, not the actual separation itself. So everything that we can do to de-escalate conflict and help parents communicate better is going to help their children develop in a healthy way, and not have long-lasting issues resulting out of the trauma that occurs when they're exposed to conflict. So mediation helps parents communicate better, it starts them off essentially working together on the joint project of coming up with the details of their separation. It models a way that they can communicate better, and it allows them to tailor their agreement for the exact needs of their particular children. Juris: So mediating face-to-face isn't the only option, right? Tell us about e-mediation and different ways of communicating that their benefits. Christina: Yeah, so I do a lot of e-mediation. E-mediation is sometimes referred to as "online dispute resolution" or "distance mediation". Really it just means that we may be communicating by phone, where I set up a teleconference and everybody is talking on the phone. Or it can be video chat like Facetime, Zoom or Skype one of those platforms. What I found is that I think that for couples where there is a lot of tension, it helps reduce that a little bit because it takes out the element of physical proximity. People can participate from the comfort of their own space, it helps a little bit with scheduling because it's easier to attend a meeting when you can attend from wherever you are, in the privacy of your office or your home and you don't have to battle through traffic or actually get to a different location. It makes the scheduling easier which means we progress through the process a little bit quicker. And people just seem a little bit more comfortable in those situations where there is a higher level of tension. Juris: I guess it would help reduce triggers - the visual triggers or those kinds of things that would upset people off potentially. Christina: Yeah, so particularly the phone - so you might think at first that the phone would not be very effective but it's actually the opposite for exactly that reason that you don't have. There are such minute details which can trigger people after relationships, so it might be a very, very slight facial expression, you know, a raised eyebrow, rolling the eyes, body language. So when we take all of that out, it really helps to focus on the issues. The other thing I've noticed is that if we're talking by video chat of phone, people seem to be really focused on the business at hand. The meeting takes less time, and I think that's because when you've made the effort to physically go somewhere, there's kind of this sense that you want to have it be worth your while or be worthy effort. So my in-person meetings will often take a full 2-hours, whereas phone or video chat meetings are usually quite a bit shorter than that. Juris: So you could have clients who are very close to the office who you recommend e-mediation to and that actually works better for them rather than jus even taking a few minutes to come into the office. Christina: Yeah for sure. So either if there is that highly emotional sensitivity in this situation, or for people whose schedules are extremely busy and they have difficulty taking time out of their schedule to go to a different place for an appointment, it can work well. It's also great you know in this day and age where people travel so much for work, you don't necessarily have to stop the mediation process when someone is out of town, so we will often, for example, have somebody who's local and somebody who's working up north, but we can continue with our schedule with one meeting per week regardless of where they are because all we need them to have is either a phone or an internet connection. Juris: And I guess that applies to smaller communities and more of other remote communities as well, it bridges that geographical divide. Christina: Yeah, so there are lots of smaller towns that are under-serviced, where they may not have a family lawyer, a family mediator, and then on the opposite end of things there in the big cities where legal fees might be $500 or $800 per hour, something crazy like that's out of the reach for most families. So it's a way of accessing service that is appropriate for your family but not necessarily in your geographic area. Juris: Okay, so maybe you can talk a little bit more about that flexibility and mediation for creative and unusual solutions, maybe if you give an example of something like that? Christina: So when we talk about creative solutions, one of the first things that we like to do is to actually talk about what the underlying interests are for people. So interests would be to deeper motivations as opposed to position which would be something like "Well I want to keep the house" or "I want a certain amount of child support". Those are specific positions that people may take but if we'll take the house example, we would want to get into why somebody wants to keep the house - is it they have a personal connection to that particular house, or is it that they want to make sure that they feel safe with the roof over their head and a safe neighborhood, which could potentially be accomplished with a different house. So we'd like to look at that underlying reasons for their stated preferences. One of the classic analogy is that they use in mediation training, for example, is if you have a couple of people who are arguing over an orange, a non-creative solution would be to just cut the orange in half so that they each get half the orange. But with a little bit of discussion, they can discover that one of them wants half the orange because they want to make orange juice, and they want to use the inside of the orange. And the other person wants to make chocolate-covered orange peels, and actually only wants to rind. So by having that discussion in getting into little bit of the details and know why, we find that it actually makes more sense for one person to get all of the rind and the other person to get all of the inside of the orange. And we can use the same type of analysis in family law. So scheduling is one of the most intricate details of a parenting plan. And for some families, the schedule can be quite straightforward, for example, the kids might be with one parent one week, the other parent the other week, that's not very complicated. But we situations where sometimes people do shift work, or one parent works out of town, or you might even have a combination of those types of issues and we need to be really careful in detail about coming up with the schedule that will provide both predictability and flexibility. It's important for people to have a plan they can fall back on if they do end up disagreeing about something and to have it structured enough that they're having to negotiate new details on a weekly basis. Juris: Aha, so we've all heard stories about that couple that goes to court, you know, 8 weeks before every Christmas to get a judge to make a decision on who gets the kids this year. This provides a different kind of model. Christina: So usually we do put in quite a detailed plan around holiday sharing. The ideal agreement should set out a plan that parents will be able to go back to and use for several years. Now kids do grow and change so of course, reviews will be required as their needs change, but for example, with respect to something like Christmas, we wanna try to come up with a plan that they can look at each year and know what they're doing. Juris: Maybe you could give us an example of how your clients have benefitted through the process of mediation, say what they're like when they come in to the process, and how they approach each other by the end of the process. Have you seen dramatic shifts that way? Christina: I have seen some really dramatic shifts. There are of course come couples who come in and they're on surprisingly on good terms to start with and the process goes quite smoothly but there are also couples who come in who are very where the individuals are each very stressed or very anxious about the process. And they might be quite uncomfortable with speaking with each other. Over the course of the meetings and generally, most of our clients require two or three meetings seems to be the average. Over the course of those meetings, I find that people develop a sense of relief so the more details we figure out the better they feel. And by the end of the process when we've determined exactly how they're going to deal with all of the issues, a lot of clients tell me that they feel a big sense of relief. A lot of them are surprised with how quick and easy the process was. Juris: So it's almost like, the fear of creating the agreement is worst than the actual resolution. So as things are resolved then that burden lifts off of people? Christina: Yeah, I think so. Well having so many unknowns about your life causes most people a lot of anxiety. So in a lot of separations, there's gonna be a lot of questions about where am I gonna live? How much money am I gonna have to live on? What's gonna happen with my debts? Are my kids going to be okay? And the more of those questions you can answer the better people feel and the better they feel, the easier it is for them to actually get along and communicate in a respectful productive way. So I do notice that shift where tensions will ease and for example, the co-parenting relationship will often get better once the agreement has been signed because now they're not worried about what the other person may do on a variety of issues. Well I don't  know about healing but in our culture there are so many negative associations with the experience of divorce that most people have heard terrible terrible stories from their friends and their family have experiences that they have had. So they can't help but be fearful about the process and how it may go, even if the two of them have the intention to have an amicable divorce, there's that fear in the back of their mind. So when it does go relatively smoothly and they get through it, there is a sense of relief for a lot of people.  Juris: So what have you enjoyed most in the past couple of years with Modern Separations? Christina: Well, I've really enjoyed helping people get back to functional lives. You know, it was so frustrating for me to see clients with relatively minor issues, having those issues just drag on and on and on because of failures of the system. So, now I get to actually bring resolution and calm to peoples lives on a regular basis and I personally find that really satisfying. It's really nice for me when clients do express a sense of relief at the end of the process, or they tell me "Oh this was so much easier than I expected it to be". It makes me feel good that they can move on. Juris: So tell me a little bit more about this idea of transitions and how you're helping people move through family transitions as a guiding principle in the business. Christina: In our culture these days, people are experiencing often up to two or three significant separations in their lifetime. Divorce and separation is so common, we all know somebody who has been through the experience. We may have close family members who have been for through the experience, so it's not something that is anomalous. And it's something that I think is really important that we find a way to help people deal with in a healthy way. We know it's statistically very common and it's really not something that the default process shouldn't one that routinely traumatizes families. When children are exposed to conflict for any period of time, studies have shown that that can actually have long-term effects on them. So, it's really crucial for our society as a whole that we learn how to deal with separation in a healthy way. Juris: It sounds like you're at the edge of a social movement that's starting to really gain some traction. Christina: A part of what I've been trying to do is provide education to the public about this new way of thinking about divorce. We don't want to go with those old assumptions that divorce has to be a nasty brutal process. There are other ways of handling your divorce, and there are professionals out there who can help you through this in a respectful and healthy way.  Juris: It seems like it takes bravery for both clients and practitioners to go against the kind of the standard model and find new ways of going through these transitions.  Christina: I think because of the assumptions that we have in our culture about divorce, the first instinct that people may have is I need to go get myself a bulldog of a lawyer to protect myself and go after everything that I'm entitled to. So it does take some mindfulness, some broader thinking about your actual goals to make a considered decision about what is actually the best first step. It's definitely good for people to get some legal advice, but they don't necessarily need to be represented by a lawyer that something that's out of their reach of a lot of families to pay for a lawyer to handle your entire case. And frankly it's more efficient if people are comfortable dealing with a mediator on their own. They can move through the issues on a much quicker pace and then, you know, maybe just make one or two appointments with the lawyer as they feel necessary to bout some ideas off them and make sure they're going in the right direction.  Christina: Alright well this has been a lot of fun, thank you for letting me be the interviewee. Juris: Oh thanks! It's been fun. Christina: Yeah, so I think before we end though, just be interesting for me to ask you as a newcomer to this area, this industry, what your perspectives are on mediation. And we should just tell people what your involvement is. Juris: Right, so I'm the point of first contact where people call us and I'll discuss the process and people often have a lot of questions and people need to talk a little bit and understand what we're all about and get comfortable with our way of doing things. I'll often take quite a bit of time talking to people when they first call or talking with both spouses over the course of some time. Occasionally just to make sure that they're comfortable so that they know what the process is like and what to expect. I guess I have a whole new appreciation for what do you and how it affects people because when people first call, often there's this quite a lot of stress and anxiety and they're just looking for some basic answers and a map to how they can get through this. And so a month later or even faster sometimes, they're done and actually ready to move on, which is amazing to see. Christina: Okay, well I think we will wrap this up but was fun and maybe we'll do this again on an another topic.  

What do you do when you can't decide whether to work on your relationship or create a plan for separation? Charlaine Avery tells us about a specialized form of counseling called discernment counseling designed to help make this exact decision. Charlaine has worked with individuals, couples, and families for more than twenty years; helping them with relationship issues such as communication problems, conflict, grief, affairs, transitions, parenting and step-parenting.  She believes relationships are the foundation of a healthy life and feels honored to share people’s struggles and appreciates their courage as they learn to connect in healthy and loving ways.    Charlaine is the first counselor in BC to be certified in Discernment counseling – a process that assists couples to decide if they want to stay the same, change with identified goals, or end their relationship. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website:  https://www.averycounselling.com/ SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-159369673 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/averycounselling/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CounsellorCA Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlaine-avery-7b318240 Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Christina: Today I'm talking to Charlaine Avery. Charlaine is a counselor with over 20 years of experience in couples' counseling. And she has also obtained training in discernment counseling. She's the first counselor in British Columbia to have this counseling, and this is a process that helps couples decide if they want to keep the relationship the same, work on changing their relationship with specific goals in mind, or whether they would like to end their relationship. Charlaine says that this process can be particularly helpful when couples are not on the same page about what they would like to see for the future of the relationship. She also tells us that research on this process has shown that couples who have gone through this process and decided to eventually separate had a smoother separation as a result of having respectfully gone through the discernment process and decided to end their relationship together. Alright, let's jump into the interview.  Christina: Welcome, Charlaine!  Charlaine: Thank you, Christina!  Christina: I'd love to have you tell us a bit about yourself – introduce the listeners to you and your background and what drew you to working with couples?  Charlaine: OK. Well, I'm 62 years old which means I've been around the block a bit. I've been a counselor for over 23 years. I love working with couples because you can see the changes that are happening. And what I really love about working with couples is when you can see them finally turn toward each other and starting to being really able to hear each other and to talk about those things that have been difficult and to decide if they can really work on this, or whether they really need to call it. It is a very poignant moment when people are able to do that. And then they can make decisions about how are they going to move forward.  Christina: Part of what you do is you help couples decide whether or not they want to put the work into the relationship, or make that big decision of ending it, right?  Charlaine: Yeah. Working with couples can be challenging sometimes because you don't always know if everyone's on the same page and is equally committed to the relationship. And so, I've done couples counseling now for 20 years, and so sometimes you just don't know why it isn't working. I decided to study discernment counseling a few years ago because it really helps the couple to get to this place of saying, “Are we gonna stay the same as we are or are we actually gonna identify what are our issues and what are we gonna work more deeply on? Or are we really done – done that we need to move on?”  Christina: So you studied discernment counseling. What exactly does it involve and how does that training set you apart from a general couple's therapist?  Charlaine: So there was a project down at Minnesota called Marriages on the Brink. And what they found is that it was really important that each party and the couple have an opportunity to be seen individually, to talk about what they were going on. And it was also very important to have three options on the table. We can stay the same as we are, or we can identify our issues and figure out what are we gonna work on in longer term, more intensive counseling, or we can decide if we're going to just call it quits and not be together anymore. How the stuff differs from what many couples' counselor's offer is often you bring two people in your room, you meet with them together so there's this sense of secrecy or you know, 'you know something about me that I don't know that you know about me.' And... But you also don't ever get the chance, unless you meet with them individually to explore those issues. What I like about the discernment counseling is it's very neutral; it is really there to help people decide if there's a piece of the counseling where you meet the couple together, you find out about the history, you find about their hopes and dreams. And you find out about what's not been going on. Another piece of I think is really important is they do ask what about 'what about the children of the marriage, and what is the plan for them,' so that the children's needs don't get forgotten is part of the conversation. It's a fairly intensive process because you commit from session to session – it's a maximum of five sessions. So you really have to get in there and really find out what's going on. You meet with them together and then you meet with them individually and the other partner waits. These individual sections of these sessions are about 20 to 30 minutes. It's really an opportunity to get to know the person, find out their understanding and perceptions, what haven't they been able to say. One of the questions that always has to be explored is 'Is there someone else in your life that's complicating the situation that the two of you are in?' And then from that conversation with them, figuring out whether what of those three options -- do they want to stay the same; is it so painful they need to change it; if it can't be changed, are they really considering not being together anymore.  Christina: So I am curious, have you ever had a couple at the end of five sessions who are still confused about what to do?  Charlaine: That's s often because, I mean if they're confused, it means they're choosing to stay the way they are. Which is OK, right, because it's a neutral approach. Sometimes the couples' counselor would say, 'Well, you know, the counseling isn't working so you shouldn't be together.' And I actually don't believe that. Counselling doesn't work for as many reasons sometimes, and it's really important to allow people the option to say, you know, 'I don't wanna deal with this now.' or 'I don't wanna change now so let's just stay the way we are for now.' And that's OK too, so it makes room for those options. And then there's the same kind of pressure. And also at the end of each session, I ask each member of the couple, 'Are you willing to come back?' If they say no, then we're done. If they say yes, and then we just make another appointment. So I meet with them individually and then I actually get the person with my support to give a report back, kind of a summary about where they at with the other person, whether they're still unclear or if they need a clear choice. And then that the other person just listens, and then they see the other person. Discernment counseling is not couple counseling. So it's really important to understand the difference. We're not actually trying to change the relationship yet – we're actually trying to explore where are you right now. And based on where you are right now, what are your options. So that's quite different in couple's counseling and that can be difficult for couples because they think they're coming in to get fixed. Discernment really can't zip out how do we figure out what needs fixing. And then once we identify what needs fixing, then what are you willing to do to fix it.  Christina: in what sorts of circumstances do you recommend that you found it to be helpful? For people listening and you know, couple of points where they can look at their relationship and say this exists or that exists and maybe discernment counseling would be a good idea for me.  Charlaine: Yeah, so discernment counseling is done when you don't know what to do. It's obviously become too painful for things to stay the same, but there's all kinds of reasons why people don't wanna end their relationships. But there maybe a general unhappiness and they don't know what's possible and they're not sure if their partner will buy into longer-term work. If one of the two is not sure about how committed they are to the relationship, then that's a really good time to come into discernment counseling. I do this... I have this mantra-kind of relationship tune-up maintenance or repair. And so it might just be that you're needing a tune up and that would be... we'd be able to identify that pretty quickly. So for instance, a couple comes in, we talk about things. They decide that they want to go to couples counseling and we can say these are the issues we're gonna work on, we're gonna commit to it long term, then we're done. And then they can move see me as the couple's counselor or I can refer them out to another counselor. So, because they're clear on what they want. It's when people are uncertain, or when the stakes are high. Or when they don't know what the options are. Or when, you know, they just need help talking to their partners about the thing that isn't working for them. So it's kind of an intro, and it really helps to figure out what's people's motivation and trying to get a good sense of what would it take specifically to work on their relationship rather than taking this global kind of view of things. I really like it because it is very respectful of people's beliefs and values. It's really open-ended in terms of the conversation. They do get my support if there's something they do need to say to their partner, then I support them to say that. And so I think it's just really helpful to get on point.  Christina: Now, is this process... I imagine it's open for any couple and intimate relationship, they don't have to be married, do they?  Charlaine: Definitely it would be helpful for anyone who's trying to determine the status of the relationship. If you're not married, of course, there are different legal implications and things like that. But from my perspective, it doesn't make any difference. It's, you know, 'Do I wanna continue with this relationship or don't I?' 'Do I wanna continue, then what needs to be different?' 'Then if I don't wanna continue, then how do I let my partner know and just how do we move forward from that?'  Christina: I don't know if you would have this information, but have you seen any benefits to couples who do eventually decide to separate? I'm wondering if they might have an easier time of going through the separation process after having gone through the discernment process?  Charlaine: That was an interesting piece of the research, was that lawyers actually started referring couples because what they found is, because of these kinds of conversations that are respectful and clearly communicating; that there was less conflict if they did decide they had to separate and move on. There was less conflict because the emotional part of letting go of the relationship was actually being taken care of prior to going to the lawyers, where sometimes it can become quite conflictual. There's no guarantees obviously, but if you two have resolved and you're on the same page about why you're separating, then you don't need to argue about 'are we separating or not?' It's clear that that decision's already been clearly made. The difficulty, of course, is for the person who's being left, it might not be their choice, it might not be their decision. But at least it gives them a place where they can express this to their partner, and their partner can get my support explaining to them why it's not an option to continue. So the lawyers actually find it quite helpful.  Christina: That's what I was imagining. You would say because I do see sometimes when people haven't had the opportunity if they're coming into a mediation and they haven't had really an opportunity for closure or to accept the relationship has ended. Then that can really drag on discussion of the substantive issues that we're trying to talk about. Because there's all these emotional issues that haven't been resolved yet.  Charlaine: And the thing about relationships is that they don't usually go downhill all at once. So it's a small accumulation of many things. And so when the relationship is put in question, you know sometimes people can't be honest about what's going on. But by meeting with them individually, I'm able to help them to say what they need to say to their partner. So I had a couple in here recently and they're good people. And they care about each other, but it's not just giving them what they need in their life. And it was interesting. They couldn't say it to each other but they could say it to me, that they were done. So I supported the first one to go to say that to the partner. And the partner... then I met with the partner then the partner said that “it's such a relief 'cause I'm on the same page.”  Christina: Oh, good.  Charlaine: Right. It's funny how face to face with couples, it's sometimes hard to do that. And you really need, you know, a caring supportive person to help you to say that. And now I'll be helping them to decide what are the next steps on how do we go forward now that we're both on the same page.  Christina: And so how can people work with you? Do you work with clients online?  Charlaine: I have done some discernment counseling by Skype, as long as the couple's comfortable with that. Because you know, you want confidentiality while you're having the conversation with me. And so that it takes a certain amount of trust about whether you know, the other person's actually not listening at the door.  Christina: Oh, I see. Yes.  Charlaine: So the interviewing people individually direct like as a couple I can do that on Skype. You know, because you can just pass the computer back and forth typically. So it's possible. It's always better in person but since I'm the only one in BC who has a certification at this time, it's gonna be hard for them to find someone locally. And so I'm making it available by Skype.  Christina: OK, great! And I think I saw on the discernment counseling website that there is a list of practitioners in Canada and the United States who do this type of work – is it just the two countries or there are discernment counselors in other countries as well?  Charlaine: I'm not sure. They just reopened the training for people who are interested, so maybe people from other parts of the world... they pretty much began in the US in the last five years or so. So it's definitely a growing aspect of the counseling field.  Christina: OK, fantastic! And what are the best ways for listeners to get in touch with you?  Charlaine: I'm available by phone. People can book appointments directly from my website, I have an online booking system. So they can go to my website averycounselling.ca, counseling has two Ls. And you could look at my blogs, 'cause I have blogs on discernment counseling and I also have connection to the discernment website, the developer of this. There's a little video of him talking about what this is about as well. By phone, through the internet, whatever works for the client.  Christina: Perfect! OK, well thank you so much Charlaine for sharing that information about this new branch of counseling. I think this is gonna be really helpful for a lot of people.  Charlaine: Good, well I hope so. And I much certainly found it helpful for the couples that I've worked with.  Christina: Excellent! 

The groundbreaking FAYR co-parenting app is taking off due to the dedicated efforts of its founder Michael Daniels and its senior advisor Gwyneth Paltrow to improve the lives of co-parents and children. The challenges of co-parenting can be overwhelming and can lead to significant conflicts. Michael Daniels came up with the idea of creating an app for co-parents to help them effectively manage their time, their finances, and their co-parenting communication. FAYR is a groundbreaking app that simplifies everyday matters for divorced and separated parents.  As a separated father of two young children, Michael found himself overwhelmed by the legal, financial and emotional costs of divorce on his family. After 20 years in the homebuilding industry, Michael hung up his hard hat to create a tool that would not just improve his family’s life, but would also help the other 55 million divorced co-parents in the US. Despite his success on the Apple tv show "Planet of the Apps" and partnering with Gwyneth Paltrow, Michael's guiding light remains the same: working everyday to be his best self for his kids.  Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: https://www.fayr.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/befayr/ Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/befayr Twitter:https://twitter.com/befayr Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/company/fayr/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/   Christina: Hello and welcome! I'm super excited today to be talking to Michael Daniels. Michael is the founder and CEO of the new Fayr app (spelled F-a-y-r), and it's a groundbreaking app that streamlines key aspect of family management for divorced parents. That includes sharing a parenting temp calendar, tracking shared expenses, recording communication, and more, all in one location. Fayr debuted really in 2017 and drew interests from Apple TV, who invited him to audition for the reality series "Planet of the Apps". Michael was selected for the show and he had huge success, securing a partnership with his now head adviser Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth is well-known as an academy-award winning actress of course, but she's also an active entrepreneur, with a highly successful lifestyle brand goop.com. She's a passionate voice for improving the experience of divorce for families and drew a lot of media criticism a few years ago for her announcement that she and her husband were consciously uncoupling. It's so exciting to see Michael and Gwyneth working ways to make life easier for co-parents, which is going to make a healthy and respectful divorce achievable for more and more families. Check out this interview with Michael to find out all the things that Fayr can do and how it can make your life better. Alright, let's hop in. Christina: Welcome Michael thank you so much for being here with me today! Michael:  Thank you for having me, Christina.  Christina: I'm really excited to talk to you because of the super positive project that you got involved with to help co-parents do a better job. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got inspired to create the Fayr app? Michael: Well, I would say my background can't be any further from this subject, I'm a home builder, I mean, I started building homes when I was a teenager, just an able-bodied worker. Later on, I went to work for the largest homebuilder in America and worked for them 6 years before going out on my own to become a custom home builder. And you know, like everybody else a lot of people go through divorces and it was just a very trying period for me. Family is important for me, I come from a military family and my father was an army officer for 30 years or so and you know traveling around a lot, family was always just important - we're always together. And I would say that that had a lot to do with feeling my interest in trying to do what I could for my kids and so, yeah, that being my background, I think it all really fed into my interest to communicate better, be as much a part of my children's lives and in a positive way. Christina: Well, the fact that you're outside of the standard legal divorce industry gives you a whole new perspective, I think what the industry needs. Michael: I think I relay to people really well, I find that the people I feel most comfortable and most effective in communicating with are just the regular people. I kinda leave it up to my team, they kinda do a better job than communicating with the professionals in this industry. Christina: And so how did you get inspired to create the app? What was the thinking behind that? Michael: What was the ah-ha moment? Christina: Yeah. Michael: Well you know, it's a culmination of a lot of things. You go through like these unexpected things can happen at any point. And so you get divorced, and then as the time goes on, the whole process was just tremendously arduous when you think about the two years it takes before from separation to finally getting through things, you fight over custody stuff, you know, whole bunch of money spent, and this is the measurable process and then when it's done and when you finally sign your parenting agreement, you think everything's gonna be okay but it's not. Emotions pop up, and next end, like you know, 6 more years went by and it's still not at rest. And so you never know when you're gonna be caught with this need to go back to court. And are you documented? Most people lose, not because they're bad parents, but because they're insufficiently documented. And I did, it's not fun to reconcile with laws all the time, and I would have to reconcile these laws every night and just miserable way to live thinking about this stuff constantly and so. Then you go to court and then the other person can very well say, "well you made that up". And there's really no way to prove anything, you know. You can't verify some of this stuff. So I thought to myself, "if there was something that could just galvanize, Google docs, Google calendar, your emails, Google spreadsheet, all of these things that I was happy to use constantly, text messages and everything, have it wrapped up and a one app - specifically like a go-to resource just for co-parents to either co-parent together or just document, just to avoid mitigate future problems. Assuming that was it, it was just a culmination of many years of these things and I just one day started looking into this. I mean, if nothing else, it's gonna help my life and probably help a lot of other people too. Christina: Okay. So I think this sounds like a good place for you to tell us a little bit about what the app does.That sounds pretty cool, the calendar and Google docs and so forth. All of that being rolled into one. What does the app do, and I'm wondering you mentioned that you can either use it together for co-parenting or it sounds like you can just also use it on your own? You don't need the cooperation of the other if you're just looking for documentation? Michael: Yeah absolutely. I mean it's basically an all-in-one digital ledger for child custody. So it's just the place you can go to let's say for example, things that parents run into. Let's face it, and I say this sometimes because I don't think people are very conscious of this, is that there's no other area in life that you can be in a simple lawsuit with another human being and you're forced to continue communicating with that person for years to come, you know. So it's a very stressful situation but the importance of communicating constructively with that person is paramount. And so how do you bridge this problem between the necessity for the benefit of the children (in my case 2 children) that you love the most in life, and then you have this horribly frustrating situation where you don't communicate well  because you were in a very bitter, emotionally, hard suit with this person. Because that what these things are - they're lawsuits. So anyway, I thought, what the app can do for you is let's take the calendar feature for example. It's color-coded so mom stays in one color, dad stays on another color, you put in your time-sharing agreement. And then if you need to switch a day, you can just let your day request just a fourth of the day to the other parent. The other parent instantly gets a notification saying "oh, Bill wants to forth his day to you". You can either accept or deny. If you accept it, it changes to your color, and it doesn't switch back to his color unless you release it again. But that way, if anything doesn't rise, your building this incontestable audit trail of information as life is happening. And that's just the calendar feature. But, it just streamlines things to where it's sending a new notification, it's letting you know when soccer is, you can set it up front where repeat this for the next six months every Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then every other year switch your Christmases, so everything's put in upfront and then it's just laid out for you. No more arguing, no more disputes over this particular issue. And I just wanted to simplify, take out all the arguing that goes on. And then the next feature, let's talk about expenses for example. I mean, people are very good about keeping a mental inventory of their own contributions for their children. But there's seldom real knowledge what the other person is doing. And no one's very good about keeping receipts, and no one's very good about all of the things that we have to juggle. And when your attorney tells you, "Hey, Friday I need all these stuff", it is terrible to have to start digging all that up and reconstruct that audit trail information. I had to call two different banks. my insurance company, doctor's offices, and dentist offices have reprint stuff and just have to dig it up and I'm sure there's still stuff missing. And if you dump it all at your attorney's office and your paralegal, just put it in a court-ready format, you know. That's costed you per hour. So it just all gets very expensive, I mean, I just spent nearly sixty thousand dollars in total on all these legal fees. And you think about what that could have done for what I have for my children. Anyways, the point is with this app, as things are happening I don't have to keep receipts anymore, buy something and I simply snap a picture of the receipt - it's there, it's recorded. Then I plug it all in,  and that's it. She can see it instantly, she can see everything that was purchased. Right now it's four categories and I'm about to expand that. So I called them involuntary expenses, it's either your medical, your dental, your personal or educational. And some of these things are tax-deductible. So the app also know which are tax-deductible, and at the end of the year, you can just say "give me my tax-deductible report", and it'll give you everything you've spent on your kids that you can deduct from your taxes as well. So just organizes everything, you don't have to save any more paper, and that's really beneficial. And again, at a glance now, both parents can see what's happened, and shortly you'll be able to settle up with each other within the app. You can just say, "okay I'm gonna settle up". You click the button and automatically transfers money to the other parent. You can pay child's support alimony, everything's gonna be able to be documented paid right thru the app.  Christina: Oh that will be handy. Michael: Yeah it will be great. And you can set it again. I want to make a co-parenting app that just lets you co-parent on autopilot. So yes you may do some work upfront, plugin all the stuff in. But once it's in, from then on out its just small little adjustments, here and there, as life is going on and you still make adjustments. But for the most part, you're just gonna get these "just go through life and things are gonna be nice and easy". So the next feature is my Geo pen points. The reason I have these is 'cause there are a lot of hidden cases where you're supposed to be somewhere but timely dropoffs or pickups, and there are court orders a lot of times, and to prove that you were there on time is an important thing. So with this feature, you can show up, you can simply say "I want to check in" and you log yourself and there it is - a time, date and stamp that you were on the planet in that spot at that time. So there's just no more he-said-she-said when you go to court. It's just you're good. You know you can prove that you were there. That prevents people from using children as chess pieces. And then the last feature that we currently have is our invisible text messaging. So every lawyer tells you, communicate email, 'cause emails are invisible in court, text messages are not. Well, with these, you have the best of both worlds. You have the ease of text messaging with the invisibility of email. It works just like the IOS messaging, super easy. And at any time you can just say "I wanna generate a report", and all of this stuff, every single day you had them the percentages, everything from whatever time, period you want to look at, just be instantly printed out in a PDF or Excel format. And there you go. Shortly though, right out just the two parents that can be on it, they are onboarded on in the system but shortly you'll be able to have third-party users for this login, to actually grow our user base tremendously. But you can have grandparents who are involved, step-parents, aunts, uncles, legal professionals, they'll have an interface too if they need to monitor just make a guardian light them for example. It's just gonna make everything much more simple, much more honest and fair - that's the name of the app, it's "Fair". It stands for Family, Advocacy, Your Responsibility, just to help make things easier that is in a very difficult situation. Christina: Sounds like it's streamlining a lot, saving a lot of time, and kind of peel back and take away some of the emotion out of the communication? I'm wondering if for example if we go back to the Calendar, and your request to switch a day, is that just very black and white like that or you switch it where you make the request, or do you have the ability for example to say, you know I have to work late next week. Michael: Every single one of these functions  - I know I'm just doing kind of a brief over if you're here, but if you select to switch, it actually requests you know, give a reason. You have to write a reason in so that it's notified "hey I'm working late" and you can put notes down there. So when this is printed off in the main report, it'll show that on Saturday, at 4:36 PM, you requested a fourth of the day, the notification was sent, it was accepted at this time, so the whole record is there for a judge or anybody to look at and they'll know exactly what happened, and the notes will be attached there too. "Oh I've forth of the day because I have to be here or this happens", so the communication is there, let's face it, six months from now I'm not gonna remember why I'm not gonna remember what happened. So, I've definitely thought all of that, I wanted to make this thing just as useful for people and just take out the anxiety that we go through later on. Christina: It sounds like some of these features might tend to actually encourage, better behaviors, so I'm wondering if, by using this app, maybe court applications are actually reduced or eliminated in some cases, what kind of feedback have you received? Michael: I mean I know from my own personal experience that it definitely mitigates problems that usually escalates to costly, you know court motions, and look you know, that's what we all want. I mean, our family courts... you correct me if I'm wrong I know you're more of a guru on this than I am but they're the most backed up courts in America, I mean that's why in some places it's up to three years, backlogs. So, hey if we can reduce problems and keep some money in some families pockets cause you know, it's they're sad statistics you know. I think most people know this what's sad is that you don't go in any sort of parenting tutorials. I don't know if they do this everywhere, but here in Florida, when you go and get divorce they make you take an online little... watch all these videos and take retention quizzes, and things like this that educate you in parenting, it's like "Man I wish I did this before when I became a parent." And then of course in this process just learning more about the effects of these two home situations on children nationally, it's pretty scary. I mean when you look at some of the statistics out there, and I'm not saying the answer is people should stay together cause I'm a firm believer that a lot of people if they're properly communicating it's a better situation for kids, for two people who don't like each other to not stay together. But the statistics actually show that if your kid is being raised in a broken home, they are twice as likely to drop out of high school, they're four times as likely to go to prison, twice as likely to actually attempt suicide. They're medicated for things like depression and anxiety and insecurities. They suffer from speech defects, asthma, and headaches at a higher rate. And I don't know what, I'm sure there's a lot of things that contribute to those statistics but, I think that kids growing up feeling that their parents are butting heads all the time, that can't help but believe that that causes some emotional duress on them. Christina: Oh absolutely, I think a lot of the studies have shown that it is the conflict that occurs in separation, not so much the separation itself, but that exposure to conflict between parents that's really traumatic for kids.  Michael: Totally. Christina: This app, I think has huge potential and you've already had a really exciting launch this summer, tell us a little bit about the Planets of the apps show that you're on. Some of our listeners might not be familiar with that. So what that was all about and what your experience is like there? Michael: That was pretty phenomenal the whole experience honestly, I was.. it was July 4th, 2016 and I was at my cousin's boat. And I'm kicking around this idea of building this app. So I priced it out and you know it was gonna be quite a bit of money, and I'm like "Man do i do that or I'm not... this a lot of things I can do with that kind of money " and he said "You know Mike, it's something that's.." he's like "I've been listening to you for 8 years complain about all the things you go through"  you know he's like.. "I think it's a good place to direct your energy and you gotta be passionate about something in life and you're really passionate about this" so I said, Okay I'm gonna go and pull the trigger. So 2 days later I put my deposit down, I started building it. And fortunately I did, cause if I had waited four days, I would've missed the window to be considered for Planet of the Apps. And it was very fortunate, and I didn't know they started with nearly 10,000 applicants and they narrowed us down to about, I guess about 80 of us that made it. And then of the 80, I mean less of a third of that made it to the final round, that I did. So it was really exciting cause I'm not an app builder, I mean I got out there and I was just overwhelmed by all these crazy smart people, I mean they cruise at that intellectual stratosphere that I can't look at from the ground binoculars, it's super smart people out there. And anyway, it's a good experience, so I go out on Planet of the apps, and we're filming this thing and I was lucky enough to have all four of the panelists there, you know Jessica Alba, Gwyneth Paltrow, Will i.am, and Gary Vaynerchuk, all four of them wanted to partner with me, and I think I was one of the only ones who have that. And super exciting, and again my app that time was just a concept, it was a Beta, it had to be in Beta but it was far from being in the app store. Far.  So I ended up choosing Gwyneth, and I chose Gwyneth because, one she's the only person who'd gone through a divorce, two you know this is a subject she's very passionate about, and you know the whole conscious of coupling that you've referred to as well. She gets it, and that's an important thing. I think I'd go through life and I think most people listening would probably agree that you just run into people especially when you're back out in the dating world, and you meet people who just don't get it. Unless you've been through it, it's something that kinda connects people. My dad was an army guy, so I kinda equate it to people who had gone to war, and you just talk to another guy and they just get it, you know. So anyway, I partnered with her, we met many times, we corresponded, we still correspond via email. And she's just been very very supportive, that I mean I'm about to launch Android and when android launches at the end of this month, I'll be re-engaging her efforts to get, start tweeting about it again. She's tweeted for me in the past and that's very helpful, I always get a good spike in downloads when she does that. And hey you know, it was a phenomenal experience, I gotta tell you I feel very lucky and I'm very happy that I have somebody like her who isn't just... she's not just bottom line focused like a lot of people are, who are just like "So how much money is this gonna make?" She's more concerned like when we met, it's like "is this gonna help people? Let's just focus on helping people and everything else will take care of itself." And I like that, I really really appreciate that.  Christina: Yeah for sure, I can see that in addition to her acting career she, of course, has the eCommerce lifestyle brand goop.com, which is also focused on having a great lifestyle, and you know the various different aspects of that, so having a positive co-parenting relationship I can see that would sort of fit in to that. Yeah, and she did have that very high profile divorce a few years ago, where the media was quite nasty towards her. I found it to be really discouraging that the intention and the desire to have an amicable divorce would be considered by the general media as being sort of a ridiculous goal to have or you know, just something the general public could aspire to.  So I love that she's putting up her energy behind this with you.  Michael: I think she's such a gracious person, I think Gwyneth is a really, you can just see it like when you're talking to her that she's really, you'll never know, you know I mean most of the media unfortunately for her, they portrayed her in any way that they want to, and they could do that with anyone, they could do that with you, me, anybody they wanted to. And I think it's unfortunate cause it's a "yeah you got your head in these clouds if you think people can do this amicably". But she's, you know, she's told me that she has a better relationship now with her ex-husband Chris, than ever before! She says "you know we have the best relationship we've ever had!" and that speaks volumes to her because that takes work. That takes a real concerted effort to just be able to say that, and to have done that cause she's doing better than I am, you know I mean like.. most people just don't do that well, with that. And I think most people like she said like most people get caught up in trying to be right... I'm right, I'm right. But it's like, it's not about being right, it's about being effective. Let's be effective for the benefit of our kids, let's not worry about being right. I listen to that, cause I'm.. just one of these guys who just want to be right. You know, I wanna win the argument. But you know, I got some maturing to do as well, you know. Christina: You've done some learning over the years. So in what circumstances do you see the app as being useful? Is this something you can see rolling out to most separating couples? Michael: Oh my goodness. I gotta tell you, I think married people should use this. I mean, let's face it, the number one reason above infidelity and religion - it's funny as it is, and if people would use this app, 'cause so many times, you know in today's world, and this isn't 40 years ago, but today's world, not our parents' generation, but you have 2 separate incomes, 2 separate bank accounts, and 1 person oftentimes paying the lion share of the expenses, and the other person's dropping it on a Harley Davidson or something like this just toys, and that becomes a point when things get tough. That becomes a real point of contention in a relationship. And so, I just think that anybody should. But obviously, that's a little lofty when you think that much married people are gonna jump on it. But, I gotta tell you, I see it ideally if two people can co-parent constructively together, it is a great platform for that. But if not, man do yourself a huge favor, use it because it is so much easier to just stay on top of things that document now than try to dig up those receipts later on. And you never do it, you never end up doing it, in fact, most attorneys tell me "I'm so frustrated with my clients because I tell them document... document and they just don't do it, and then inevitably they lose, and you know, that sucks".  Christina: Well there's so many things going on in life where you're separating trend to figure out where you're gonna live, maybe do you need to change your job, how are your children doing, and so the documentation just falls through the cracks. It's not high on the priority list, even though the lawyers might like it to pay. Michael: Yeah exactly. You've got life happening. And let's face it, it's not a fun thing to do. It is just the whole time you do it. You just dread it. It's not fun, I mean, and most people aren't organized with a lot of that stuff, so I just try to make it as easy as possible. And I think Fayr has a sincere effort at accomplishing that.  Christina: So having been divorced yourself and now being part of this industry trying to improve the experience for separating couples, do you have any advice? For couples who are in the process right now? Michael: Yeah I do, and it would be, you know it's tough because as you know, once you're years passed it you look back, and it's just like don't live with regrets. Really, really try to power through the nasty things that you kind of do, the unfair things that you do, because you're gonna regret the impact that it has on your kids later on because you wanna be the best you, you wanna be the best version of yourself for your kids. And the only way you're gonna be able to do that is just suck out the poison and they always say, you know, it's not the snake bite that kills you, it's chasing the snake that sends the venom to the heart that kills you. So just don't chase things. Just like what Gwyneth said, "don't worry about being right, just be effective and just be fair." I don't know, it feels like it's so easy to say, it feels like a cliche, it's like to put myself in that position back then, and I would say, "man, what the heck", he doesn't know what he's talking about. He isn't in my situation but, that's so I could tell parents it's just really trying to be fair with one another, 'cause it just hurts your kids when you're not. Christina: I think that's excellent advice. For people who are interested in trying out the app, what's the best way to contact you or to get a hold of the app? Michael : Yeah, so we're obviously on Facebook,  Fayr. On Twitter, it's Fayr Dad, and on Instagram we're @BeFayr. www.fayr.com. We have a lot of great information out there, you can google me as well, Michael Daniels Fayr, and you'll see up just a bunch of plan of the apps stuff, videos. We've been in the news all over the place even in England and Germany, actually. We got a lot of exciting things happening.  Fayr is doing great and we're gonna keep growing it as 55 million people across America who are living in a sort of two-home situation raising kids co-parenting, and I'm gonna keep marching forward and helping every one of them out that I can. Christina: And right now you said Fayr is available on the Apple App Store? Michael: Yes it is available in the App Store, that's Apple. And in another 2 weeks, it will be available for Android. Sorry Android has taken so long but we're constantly improving things and that's just more development time.  Christina: So for people who are not hearing this at the time of the original release, that will be around the end of November 2017. Okay Michael well thank you so much for your contribution to improving the lives of co-parents and kids out there. Michael: Christina thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it being here. Christina: And a pleasure talking to you.  

Did you know that using a Divorce Coach can help you minimize your legal wrangling? Tara Eisenhard shares what a Divorce Coach is and how they can help families get through the divorce process with more ease and grace. Tara Eisenhard is a passionate divorce coach who believes that families should evolve, not dissolve, through the divorce process. She is the author of The D-Word: Divorce Through a Child’s Eyes and the blog, Relative Evolutions. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: www.taraeisenhard.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/taraeisenhardFacebook: www.facebook.com/author.taraeisenhardTwitter: https://twitter.com/relativevolutnsLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taraeisenhard/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/   Episode Transcript Christina: Hi everyone! Today we're going to be talking about divorce coaching. Divorce Coaching is a really interesting new service, relatively new. You've heard about the sports coach, the life coach, the business coach. Today you're gonna learn about how a divorce coach can fit into your separation process and help you find your footing and make decisions on your process that will help to go smoothly for you. Today I'm talking to Tara Eisenhard. Tara is a passionate divorce coach who believes that families should evolve, not dissolve, through the divorce process. She also does mediation and is the author of The D-Word: Divorce Through a Child's Eyes. She also is a regular blogger and blogs under the name Relative Evolutions. Tara provides some great analogies and ways of thinking about how a divorce coach can help you in your circumstances. Let's jump into the interview. Christina: Welcome, Tara! Thank you so much for joining me today. Tara: Thanks so much for having me! I'm happy to talk. Christina: So, I'm excited to have you share with our listeners a little bit about yourself – you're doing a combination of some really interesting work, and yes. So tell us what brought you into the field of divorce? Tara: Well, my parents actually separated when I was 13, and they had a very good divorce. So it was a positive experience in my family. I grew up thinking that divorce was a really good thing overall. And unfortunately, I grew up and I got divorced, which was not unfortunate. That was great, I also had a good divorce. But when I told people that I was getting divorced, that's when I realized that unfortunately, my experience is not very normal. And so for a lot of people, divorce is a horrible experience that tears families apart. And I wanted to know why. So I started to... First I was just curious for my own information and I did some research and started to kinda go down this rabbit hole where I was learning everything that I could about divorce and how could it be better than it is, and why it is the way it is. And eventually, it just continued to ignite this passion within me to change the way that we talk about divorce and change the way that we approach divorce in our culture and try to make it better for more people. So at this point, it's been about 11 years since my divorce and I am now a divorce coach, I'm an author, I'm a mediator. And really just trying to spread the word that divorce can be a positive experience and a really healing thing for a family. Christina: That's fantastic! I'm really excited to share with people your positive approach. Because I think people are really inundated with a lot of negative assumptions and stories that they've heard from people. And you're in a somewhat of a new and growing area which is divorce coaching. So can you tell us a little bit about what exactly is that? Tara: So divorce coaching can mean different things. Sometimes you might see the word and its associated with more of like comfier service – somebody that's going to help you fill out paper work, for instance. I don't get involved in any of the actual legal process. My focus is a directional one. I work with my clients primarily on a one-on-one basis to help them to really get some self-awareness around what their goals are, what is working for them, what's not working. And then we try to put together a plan to help them strategize, how to get where they wanna be at the end of all of this and really throughout the process. As they're transitioning and transforming to find their new normal and birth their new life. Christina: And how would you say that that compares with counseling? I think because this is a new area, it's something people aren't really familiar with. They wouldn't have heard, maybe their friends or family members talking about it. So how do you make that distinction? Tara: So there's a really great analogy that I'd like to use involving a suitcase. And if you have a suitcase, and you take it to a therapist or counselor, that person is going to help you open the suitcase, will get how you packed, did you pack appropriately, what does it mean whether you folded your clothes, do you have enough room in the suitcase, is time to buy new clothes, that kinda thing and really dig deep into that suitcase. If you take the suitcase to a coach, the coach is gonna say to you, “OK, where is that that you wanna take the suitcase and travel to?” And then you tell them, and the coach is gonna say, “Well, here are some bus schedules and some train schedules and some plane schedules. Let's talk about the best way for you to get from here to there.” So really easy way to sum it up is therapy and counseling is a deep process; coaching is a directional one. Christina: Oh, that's a fantastic analogy, I really liked that! That's very visual. It really helps wrap your mind around that whole concept. So you're helping people navigate the divorce process and make decisions about how they want to move through. For example, the various legal processes might be one. Do you get into the emotional aspects at all? Or will that be something that you would refer out for example if somebody is having emotional barriers? Do you then help them with the process of choosing a counselor? Tara: I can help them to decide what kind of help they need. So just for instance, I have a program where one of the modules talks specifically about emotions and we talk about what healthy healing means, and for instance, if we talk about emotional wounds the way that we would look at a physical wound on your body. If you have a physical wound on your body, you need to know is this something that you can treat at home? Do you need to go to a doctor? If you need to go to a doctor, do you need to see a specialist? Is it necessary for you to get stitches or have surgery? Do you need ongoing therapy and ongoing treatment? So there's lots of variables that can come into play. And what I do on the emotional side is I really just help people to look at kind of how deep that emotional wound really is, and what kind of help do they need, if they need some additional therapy. Do they need to have, you know, medication for instances that something's going to help them, or would it help just to go and have somebody to talk to, and how often is that going to, you know, therapy gonna be necessary for them. That kinda thing. Christina: Hmm, OK. And what kinds of issues would you say are pretty common that you're finding that a lot of your clients are experiencing while they're going through the separation? Tara: Well, some really common issues are, for one, just kind of the sense of overwhelm. “What do I do next? My mom tells me to do this, my sister tells to do this. My best friend wants me to do this. My lawyer tells me that we need to do this.” So I work with people on kind of taking out that external chatter and really focusing on what their individual goals are. Another big one is the communication with the ex. “You know, every time I talk to my ex-husband on the phone or my soon-to-be-ex, you know we get into a huge argument and we spend 3 hours screaming at each other while the kids are waiting for dinner in another room,” or something like that. So, work with people around ways that they can be more productive in that communication. Setting those personal boundaries in their communication with their ex or even maybe some other family members, too, when we're talking about that overwhelming person giving advice. So setting boundaries and creating rules around which they're gonna function in this new kind of relationship. Christina: That's fantastic! I think that is a much-needed service. I think they need to learn a new way of communicating and particularly if they're gonna be co-parenting in the future. Because they're in a place now where obviously they're communication did not serve them well during the relationship. So they need to find a way to shift that so that they're not experiencing that same pain and frustration for years to come. Tara: Yes. Absolutely. Christina: And so what does your process for working with clients look like? In terms of frequency, do you have packages, do you have online options? Tara: I do. And, so there's two different ways of how I work with people. I do have online courses, I have my kinda signature courses called Divorce Made Doable. It's a six-week program and there's a virtual classroom. Each week is a different module, and then I also offer additional support with that. So we have a Facebook group, we do weekly conference calls and anybody who signs up for that course gets two one-on-one coaching sessions with me. Each week is a different topic and it's planned ahead of time. The other way that I work with people is to do a one-on-one coaching. And in that case, I meet them wherever they are, and whatever it is that they need to talk about in their unique situation. So it might be communication with the ex. It might be I don't know what to do next. I need to you know, figure out my budget. Or, I'm getting too much overwhelming information from other people. I don't know what to do with my kids, you know, as far as how I'm talking to them and how I'm presenting myself to them. All kinds of different things that can come into play there. And as far as the individual piece is concerned, I do have a package price for people that want to book multiple sessions at once. But not everybody needs a lot, you know. It just kinda depends – I usually recommend once a week is kind of a good, you know it's a good frequency to touch base, check in. Coaching always involves some kind of homework, some kind of follow up. So there's somewhere to go when this session is over. People know what they need to do next. But, you know, if it's a small issue, sometimes one session is enough. And if it's an ongoing kinda thing that you wanna get deeper and go broader, then you know, they might talk to me for multiple sessions. Five, ten, whatever. Christina: OK, it's nice to know you're flexible with that. So you can meet people where they are. And for the course, is that geared towards people who are at the very beginning of the separation process? Tara: The course is actually, and really any of my services are geared toward anybody at any stage. The content and the approach that I have is basically that, you know, our core needs as human beings apply, regardless of whether I've been separated for two minutes, two months, or twenty years. Because there's issues that are unique to that separation process. If they're continuing to be issues, things like communication from my ex, and people telling me what I need to be doing. Those are things that persist. So, it really doesn't matter. I've had people take the course that are still living together and they just know that their marriage is over and they don't know what to do next. They're looking to get a good start. And then I've had people go through the program that have actually been divorced for several years. And they're just looking for ways to kind of wrap it all up and kind of get some closure around it, and feel better emotionally, and know for sure that this is what I'm gonna do to put this chapter to bed and turn into a new one. Christina: For those people who have some financial concerns, I think it's quite common for people to be worried about involving more professionals than they need to. You touched on the pricing piece a little bit earlier. I wonder if you could comment a bit on how coaching might compare to legal fees or counselor's fees. And whether this is the kind of thing that might actually be preventative, you know if you do some coaching, maybe that will help reduce fees in other areas. Can you comment on that? Tara: Absolutely! And one of the things that I tell people is that quite often, the more professionals you involve in your process, the more you can control the cost of the process. Which really doesn't sound like it makes sense until you start to think about what the process looks like when you're taking everything to separate attorneys who are not necessarily skilled in dealing with, for instance, the emotional aspects of it. Or goal-setting. Things along those lines. So, working with a coach... the cost of coaching is less than the cost of working with an attorney. And that can, the prices of attorneys vary obviously by hundreds of dollars an hour. So the coaching cost can save you hundreds of dollars an hour, over working with the attorney. And then also knowing, through coaching, knowing, if we go back to that emotional wound. Being able to figure out where do I wanna go, what kind of help do I need with this, do I need to talk to a financial adviser, you know if my ex and I both go to, like a divorce financial analyst. Where that's one professional that is neutral that's helping both of us as opposed to paying two separate attorneys, to fight and communicate for us. Which is obviously going to cost a lot more money in the long run. Christina: And so with coaching, you've got the benefit of helping make decisions that are really aligned with the person's own goals and the potential financial savings. Are there any risks or anybody for whom you think coaching wouldn't be appropriate? Tara: Well it depends on the individual. And basically, you know, it comes down to whether or not somebody is ready for coaching, whether or not it's an appropriate outlet. And it's not appropriate for everybody. Coaching, like I said, it's a directional process. And so, you know I always talk to people before we start to schedule sessions, just to make sure that we're kind of on the same wavelength and that coaching is going to be an appropriate thing for them. For somebody who is not ready to let go of the past, somebody who isn't ready to begin to take those kinds of steps forward, even if its baby steps. In that case, therapy might be a much better option to kinda help get unstuck emotionally before, you know,  they're ready to run out and start setting new goals and kind of run that marathon. Christina: OK that's a really good point. Now, what advice would you have for people who are at the beginning stages of their separation? Tara: So my number one piece of advice, and it's actually two-fold. The first piece is to get honest. And be honest with yourself, with your partner, about the state of the relationship. A lot of times, things start to go downhill and you've got one person saying “This is over” and the other person saying, “Oh no, how can you give up?”, which is how my process started out. But you know when people are able, to be honest about the current state of a marriage and if I'm really honest I don't want to be married to somebody who doesn't wanna be married to me. Once you have that kind of clarity, you can reach that place of acceptance and be able to move forward much easier. The other piece is really self-awareness. Because when we know what our needs are when we know what our goals are, we're so much better equipped to move forward in a productive manner as opposed to just being angry and being in this place of misery, and wanting nothing more than for somebody else to feel miserable too. Christina: Absolutely, and that does not go anywhere positive, does it? Tara: No. Never. Christina: So what is exciting in your business right now that you would like people to know about? That they might find helpful as well? Tara: Well, probably the most exciting thing is that I'm also working to put together some other online options. We don't have them out right now but you can continue to look at my website and see what's, you know, what's new, what's going on there. And then you know, as always, I'm just really, in general, passionate about helping people. I absolutely love divorce, which is a very unique thing to say. I'm told everybody's very shocked when I say that. But I love divorce. I think it can be a wonderful, beautiful and healing process and I'm really eager to help people kind of make the best of their situation and help their family evolve in a respectful and peaceful manner. Christina: And you're also pro-marriage though, so you wanna share both sides of that? You just recently get married again, didn't you? Tara: I did! I did! I am absolutely pro-marriage. Not that I hate marriage. But I did... I got married in January of this year. And my outlook on it is really that.. You know I think that partnership were... as human beings, we're hardwired for connection and so partnerships come very easily for us. We wanna share our lives with another person. I think that love, in general, is wonderful and beautiful. And I love the idea of two people taking the world together and making the most of their bad situations, and kind of coming through it as a team. But I also see that as human beings, we grow and we change every single day. And when a relationship is appropriate in your 20s, it might not be appropriate in your 30s. The person that you wanna raise your children with is not necessarily the person that you wanna be retired with. And I don't think that any relationship should survive at the expense of its participants. So I think that as we grow and change, sometimes relationships do, too. And that's why I see divorce as a solution to a problem. It's, you know, divorce isn't a problem. Marriage isn't a problem. It's just that people grow and change and as we move through life, we need different solutions to be able to make the most of where we are. Christina: Exactly. Because happy marriages don't end in divorce. Tara: That's very true! Christina: Only the unhappy ones. Tara: Right. Christina: So I just wanted to quickly circle back and make sure that it's clear for people. So you've got the online course – do you work with people on an individual basis, both in person and online? Or is it just one or the other? Tara: I can work with people in person or online. I'm located in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in the United States. So locally, you know I'd be happy to meet with people but if there's somebody that is on the other side of the country or on the other side of the continent, I would be happy to meet with them via Skype or telephone conversation. Christina: Fantastic! And what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you? Tara: If they wanted to kinda just check me out, they can go to my website its taraeisenhard.com. I'm also on social media. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. And as far as contacting me, they can go to my website. There's actually a contact form on there that will come right to me if somebody wants to make an appointment for a consultation, or they just have questions about our program or anything like that. Christina: Perfect! OK, and we will have all of those links in the show notes for everyone. Tara: Sounds great! Christina: Excellent! Well, thank you for your time today Tara. I think this is an excellent service you're providing people, and you're gonna do a lot of great help. Tara: Thank you so much!

Did you know that you and your kids can use mindfulness to help manage the stress of divorce? Aurora Johannson shares with us how you can use the strategy of mindfulness to reduce your stress levels and make better decisions. Aurora is a mediator, family lawyer, mindfulness teacher and yogi in Kelowna, British Columbia. She enjoys peacemaking,  meditating, teaching and the interconnectedness of all things. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website: https://insidepassagelaw.ca/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mindfuldivorce/ LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/aurora-johannson-a17aaa3b Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/   Episode Transcript Christina: Hey everybody! Welcome to the Divorce Well Podcast, today I'm talking to Aurora Johannson. Aurora is a Mediator, Family Lawyer, and a Mindfulness and a Yoga instructor. She has been a practicing Family Lawyer for over 8 years and just recently has started an innovative new practice, a law, and mediation practice which integrates Mindfulness into all of her processes.  Divorce can be such a stressful transition even when you and your partner are doing your best to make things go as smoothly and respectfully as possible. Aurora shares how using Mindfulness can help you manage your stress and improve your decision making. Check it out, it's a really great discussion. Welcome Aurora, thank you so much for being here today. And I’m really thrilled that you’re actually here in person. This is my first in-person interview.  Aurora: Oh it's very exciting for me too! Christina: So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got interested in mindfulness. Aurora: Well, I am a parent, I'm a family lawyer and have been since 2007. I have a partner who I've worked with for several years. And a few years ago I started getting, I guess getting burnt out from work and from just having so many, different things to do in a day. And the work wasn't feeling like it really jived with me anymore. It was taking more than it was giving, and my sister actually had some experience with mindfulness so already, she'd gone to a couple of silent meditation retreats and I started looking into it and I believe it was her who told me about an app called "Insight Timer". Once I got onto that the rest just sort of flowed, and the more I learned about it, the more it made total sense to me. And I found very little in the Mindful Meditation, and Mindfulness practices, and teachings to really argue with. It just went with my own personality and my understanding about the world. I'm a big believer in physics actually, rather than religion, you know the interconnectedness of all things is really like a physics concept. Looking at electrons, and how we're all made up of, stardust. Actually, but when you really take it down to like a particle level, or an electron level it's true. So, that was one of the concepts that I.. I liked that there was this scientific basis to it as well, and I've gone from there.  Christina: Okay, yeah I've been reading that there have been quite a few, studies done in recent years on the physiological effects and benefits of Mindfulness. But why don't we take a step back, and for people who are not familiar with the concept, can you describe what exactly Mindfulness is? What do you mean when you're talking about Mindfulness? Aurora: Right, so backing out of the whole universe, and having to understand all of those things. It's really a very simple concept. Mindfulness is awareness of the present moment that you're in. Because we really can't be anywhere other than where we are right now, but, we spend a whole lot of time if not even most of our time, either in past things that have happened going through our mind. How we could've done them differently, maybe even congratulating ourselves for things that went well. Or in future, things that could happen, or are going to happen. Everything from what we need to make for dinner, and laundry we need to do, to where we want our careers to go, and relationships and things like that. That's not a bad thing, those are natural things. That's how we work as human beings, we plan and we learn from our past. However, there's a lot of enjoyment and clearheaded thinking to be gained from being able to be present. And a lot of, sort of calming mental health effect as well. So it's just being aware of your, present situation. Right now, right here, I'm sitting on a chair across from you. I can feel the carpet under my foot. I can see the table in front of me, I'm aware of the temperature in the room and I'm not zoning out, I'm actually zoning in. I'm really aware of what my body's doing. What I can see, hear, feel that sort of stuff. Christina: So it sounds like something that you would be practicing, basically throughout your day, rather than during a specific period of time. For me Mindfulness, sort of blurred together with meditation? Is meditation part of Mindfulness? Is that part of how you achieve Mindfulness? How do those two things connect? Aurora: That's a really good question because meditation... you know sitting out lotus pose and saying "Om", is where many people go right off the bat. When the thing about Mindfulness, but actually, you're absolutely right. Mindfulness is a practice, that we have throughout our day, and many people all people probably have moments of Mindfulness in their day. Say you, this is a classic one, say you drive home, it's a day that you're kind of tired you've been working, it's been a long day, you drive home and you realize that you can't remember all the turns that you took on the way home. That moment when you realize that, and you recognize "Oh I''m home, I'm sitting in my car here." That's you coming back to the present moment. And what Mindful practice really is, is doing that over and over and over and over again. So, when your mind wanders, and you recognize that it's wandered, bringing it back.  One of the Mindfulness practitioners I listen to, I can't remember the name of the top of my head, but they talk about it, it's like training a puppy. You call the puppy to you, if the puppy doesn't come the first time, you don't go and beat the puppy. You don't chastise the puppy, or yourself when your mind wanders. You just go and get the puppy and bring it back to you. And so, where that intersects with meditation is that meditation.. a daily practice of meditating, I missed mine this morning and that's okay. I'll try and fit it in later today. But daily practice of meditation helps you grow the neural pathways that you need to have to be able to bring that puppy of your mind back.  Christina: Okay, interesting. So the meditation is actually sort of like the training ground to help you with your mindfulness throughout the day.  Aurora: Right, it's kind of like going to the gym. Yeah.  Christina: Okay so what would you say are the benefits of Mindfulness, both in general and also within the legal process. Why is this something that people should be considering? Aurora: So looking at Mindfulness as a remedial activity, helping you with the problem. It can help you reduce stress, just looking at it for a period with a positive standpoint. Even when you aren't having a stressor, and your practicing Mindfulness, you may find that situations that would've stressed you out before, are less stressful.  I'm a family lawyer, my clients have a lot of stress. I had a lot of stress. When I started practicing Mindfulness, I noticed that that went way down. And it sort of increased my capacity to deal with things. When you think about, this is something that I got from our colleague Henry Yampolsky, from taking a course with him on Mindful Mediation, when you have a bunch of stressors in your life, you may be finding yourself feeling maxed out like you're at maximum capacity. How can you change that? It seems like the vessel that is us, is the size that it is, how can we affect our capacity to deal with things. You can actually increase your capacity, the space that you have to process, information and challenges, by practicing Mindfulness. Scientifically you can also shrink your amygdala which is where a lot of your stress response arises, I believe that's your reptilian brain people call it sometimes you fight or flight center. And what you want to be able to do is to respond to things rather than react and so if that system is not super powerful, but your capacity system, your space, your mindful awareness, is what's been strengthened, then when something comes up that's stressful you'll have the facility within yourself to deal with it. Christina: That's one of the things that I read recently, was that the amygdala would become less sensitive, so you're less likely in a stressful situation, to have that fight or flight response triggered and you can respond more rationally or productively rather than a knee-jerk type reaction.  Aurora: I believe that's correct. That's my understanding of it. And that it physiologically actually become smaller, so less sensitive and smaller. A lot of people are fond of saying that the neurons that fire together wire together, and so if your neurons that are firing all of the time are in that stress reactivity mode, those are the ones that are being enhanced and growing. And if you're practicing your daily meditation for 5 minutes or 10 minutes or half hour, then that's what's being strengthened.  Christina: So then as, a family lawyer, how do you see all of these benefiting your clients who are going through the separation process?  Aurora:  Well, I noticed that my clients have tended over the years to be largely preoccupied, and I can think of many meetings and there are countless more that I can't recall, where people getting to a.. really like a trance, where they even look like they're looking into a far-off distance, when they're telling me their stories about things that have happened to them, or things they wished had gone differently, or fears that they have about what can happen in the future and it's really important for me to know that story. But I notice that they'll get repetitive about it, not just in a way that I need to hear what they have to say, but in a way that they're really repeating this past history, or fear to themselves over and over again. And I've used Mindfulness practice as I've actually used they like, alright let's come back to the room it seems like we are way far off and somewhere that where we don't know anything about what's going on in the future yet, or what could. And I get drawn down there as well. and I realize, wait a second where are we? We are not in this room. Let's come back to the room and look at what we actually have any control over, which is ourselves. So it empowers the clients to get out of that mode of trying to figure out what another human being is going to do and persuading them or cajoling them to do or not do that, and to come back to what actually they can control and when they realize "Hang on a second, I'm driving the bus that is my life, that person's not steering anything, they can influence me but I actually have a lot of control over what I do in my life and my choices". It puts them in a place where they're going to make much better decisions for their lives and their children's lives, in future setting up the life that they want, rather than just reacting or responding to this how they wish people would be or they fear people will be. Also, it helps them deal with stress... Christina: Which is, of course, prevalent for most people throughout the process.  Aurora: Yes. Yes, I've seen people actually, I believe I was practicing Mindfulness techniques with my clients for years and not realizing what it was. And it was very satisfying to watch my clients transform from the time they would come to me often very stressed, they were sometimes overweight, underweight, really visibly anxious looking, to living their own lives. And that was really exciting for me. And I can remember one of my clients particularly, who was just quite birdlike and quivering with anxiety, and over the next year, she just blossomed she found new work that she was able to choose just deciding herself. She didn't have to worry about what her partner, who she didn't get along with, was going to say and things like that, just a lot of like self-determination. And what I used to say to people was, it's okay to go out and have fun, it's okay to figure out what you want to do and to do that, I think the Mindfulness is one of the things that helps them with that. Figure out what those things are.  Christina: Right. Are there particular situations, or people for whom you think that this Mindfulness practice would be really well-suited? Is that something that everybody should consider or are there certain things where you can say, you know if this applies to you or if that applies to you this might be of particular benefit and you should really think about trying it out.  Aurora: I would say that it can benefit anyone or everyone. It's really a non-invasive thing because it's only you examining yourself. And being present with yourself, listening to yourself. That said, I would say that anyone who's curious about it would probably really benefit from it, maybe more quickly because they may have a little bit more excitement about it. But once people are practicing it, and seeing the difference that it can make, I think just about anybody could benefit from it. The only caution I would say is that we have a number of, well... myriad coping mechanisms and psychologists would be the people to talk to about that but we have a number of coping mechanisms, things like denial for example, that are in place for a reason. So if someone is really, say using denial as a coping mechanism, it's not for me to try to re-orient them and bring them out of that. Because they're using it for a reason and if they're still using it, my understanding is that, that's because they're not ready to let go of it. So, the thing to just be aware of when practicing mindfulness is that you can come across thoughts that are disturbing or upsetting to you. And that is a good time to get some professional assistance, somebody like a counselor who can help you to find other coping mechanisms or help you to investigate those things just so you're not going it alone. Christina: Yeah, that's really good to know. So when you're having more awareness about your thoughts you might actually end up having upsetting thoughts or realizations and then that has to be dealt in a healthy way.  Aurora: Right. Christina: And I will be having some interviews with a counselor, and a coach, and so they will be able to shed a little bit of light on that too.   Christina: So, would you say that these types of principles can be shared well with children?  Aurora: Definitely, definitely. I introduced my oldest son to some meditations on the insight timer, there was a 20-day challenge, 20-day learn to meditate challenge, and it was one minute at each day. So Day 1 is 60 seconds long. And he really enjoyed that, he did it in the evening just as he was going to bed. He'd lay down in bed and he plugged in his tablet and used that app and he's so proud that he did that. He learned a lot about it. He's 11 years old and so when people at school are making jokes about meditation and doing that classic Om pose, which is part of it, but it's not all of it, and not everybody has to do it that way. But he knows that that's not necessarily what meditation is about.  Christina: Right. That's impressive. So he got up to 20 minutes?  Aurora: He got up to 20 minutes and he still uses it sometimes to help him fall asleep. He gets attention issues and so sometimes in the night when it's time to go to sleep, his brain is really active. A lot of our brains are at that time. So to be able to come back from the thoughts to lying in bed.   Christina: Would you say that using an app like that is a helpful way to get anybody started?  Aurora: Absolutely. It's really approachable and there's more than one app out there.  Christina: This is not an advertisement for that app. We will not be sponsoring this.   Aurora: This is not an advertisement for that app. What I would say is to find a way in, that's mindfulness talk. But it's also for lay people. Find a way, just try it and there are so many different types of meditation out there. There are groups that you can be part of in person, you can do guided meditations. A lot of people find guided meditations great to start. And then what I found myself is I started with guided meditations and then the better I got it doing those, the more consistent I was, the more I actually really started to crave trying to do it on my own just with a timer. So I use a timer now often. But sometimes you know it's Friday or Saturday or something, and I just feel like something different, and I'll find a new guided meditation.  Christina: Can you describe one of those guided meditations? What is that? Like, what are they saying to you?  Aurora: How are they programming me?  Christina: Yeah.  Aurora: No way. They are not programming me at all. Um, all right. Well, a common one, this sort of a favorite of a lot of people is a body scan meditation. And that's where you might start sitting or lying down if you're feeling drowsy. You might start sitting up and eyes closed or open, but in a place where you won't be interrupted during the time of the meditation. Both the shortest body scans are both 15 minutes.  Christina: Oh that's a pretty long to start of.  Aurora: It is but because you have instructions, the time sort of flies by. it gives you prons of what you're thinking about now. So for example, the one I'm thinking about by Elisha Goldstein, he starts out in I believe your right big toe. And you just basically go through many different areas of your body, working from your toes up, so you just start by just feeling your right big toe. And then into the ball of your foot, and to the ankle, because you'll notice probably throughout today after having this conversation that there are lots of parts of your body you just completely ignore all day. But you can bring your awareness to them at any time.  Christina: So for people who are right now feeling stressed and busy and overwhelmed are ready, what would one of those one-minute meditations look like?  Aurora: A 1-minute meditation may look just like coming to a comfortable seated position, closing your eyes and watching your breath. Just for the minute. While watching even your chest rise and fall, or your belly rise and fall. Anything rhythmic that's going on in your body, whatever you feel is comfortable to you. And here is the key: when you notice your mind has wandered because everyone's does. You just bring your attention back to that rhythmic item. Over and over again. And you may notice at the end of a minute that it's wandered for the entire minute, or not. And there's no wrong way of doing it. You just bring your attention back.  Christina: And then noticing of the whole mind wandering, that's the actual success part rate is that you've noticed and now you're coming back.  Aurora: Exactly. And there's a micro and a macro level to that. So, on the micro level, it's within that meditation. You notice your mind has wandered and you come back. On a macro level, it's about getting your butt on the cushion, or the kitchen chair, wherever you medicate. And for me for example, I haven't done my meditation today so I know on a macro level, I need to get my butt in the chair later on today.  Or if it's weeks between the last time you meditated than today, coming back to the meditation, you'll notice you've wandered away from it, come back to it. And non-judgment is one of the main tenants of mindfulness philosophy. Not beating yourself up when your mind wanders. And noticing that, that instinct to trust yourself.   Christina: Right. So what recommendations do you have for people who are going through the process of separation right now, and are hoping to separate peacefully?  Aurora: That is a big question. I think learning is much about yourself as you can. Learning in terms of mindfulness, what does your mind wander off to, and bringing it back? The more you can know about yourself, the better decisions you can make. You can notice when you're motivated by fear. That's something that is unlikely to happen. You can notice when you're motivated by anger or spite, or when you're doing something self-destructive. Or that might not be the best thing for your children. I've seen so many people who just wanna do best for their kids, and who gets side-tracked on some sort of spiteful venture. And I think as a parent, I don't even really judge that. I used to judge that so harshly. And now I think, we all have lots of things that we do regularly where we go "that was not my best parenting moment". But it doesn't mean that I'm a bad mom. But I mindfully notice.    And then I can go to my son and say "that really wasn't very cool what I just said, and I'm really sorry, can we try over? Come back to where we wanna be?" So yeah, I would say that the more you can learn about yourself, the more aware you can become, the better decisions you'll make. And also, the more opportunity there will be free to experience. Enjoy, even while this process is happening.  Christina: That's something that a lot of people might not have even considered possible.  Aurora: That's true. People who are having divorces and separations often go about it either as something should be avoided entirely or something where if they work really, really, really hard at it and dedicate all their time to it, it would go by faster. Or it'll be more successful. And that just isn't the case. Often they just sort of get in an obsessive kind of a thing where it's consuming their lives. But it's also about proportion. If you have even 20 minutes a day where you are taking time out to tune in, maybe failure body or enjoy looking at flowers or whatever it is that you like and actually enjoy that cup of coffee or tea you're having actually taste it, what does the liquid feel like in your mouth stuff like that, that time is time where you weren't stressing about your divorce.  Christina:  Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing all of this great information, Aurora.  Aurora: It's my pleasure. I hope people will get turned on about mindfulness because I really feel confident that it can help.