Podcasts about nicole thank

Expelled journalist David Satter crystallizes the stakes of our current times when he shares with us his concerns about a "coalition of criminal regimes trying to set the rules for the world." We use THIS as the backdrop to your inside SCOOP for the week ahead.  Your Rundown: 0:00: NEW MUSIC! Many thanks to andrewlinnmusic.com 4:00: What's going on with the potential partial government shutdown? 8:00: The latest on the presidential elections. We hear from candidates former President Donald Trump and former SC Governor Nikki Haley. 17:00: What does Pres. Trump's lead looks like and questions re: Haley's strategy. 23:00: Expelled journalist David Satter brings us back down to Earth about what really matters. 28:00: What to know about the new decision from the Alabama Supreme Court on IVF. 42:00: We hear from Nicole – Thank you, Nicole! And a personal reflection from Jenna, xoNotice an ad-free conversation? We'd love you to consider supporting quick, concise, nonpartisan SmartHER News by becoming an insider on SCOOP or shopping in our SmartHER shop! Thank you for helping build a solution in news! scoop.smarthernews.com smarthernews.com/shop and our email: hello@smarthernews.com

Engineering manager at Vox Media and author Nicole Zhu joins Stephanie on today's episode to discuss her writing practice. nicoledonut is a biweekly newsletter about the writing process and sustaining a creative life that features creative resources, occasional interviews with creative folks, short essays on writing and creativity, farm-to-table memes and TikToks, and features on what Nicole is currently writing, reading, and watching. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. Kieran Culkin on learning about billionaires filming Succession (https://www.tiktok.com/@esquire/video/7215641441597410603?_r=1&_t=8bPK4Ingkf5) The Home Depot skeleton (https://twitter.com/jenni_tabler/status/1566266554240888832) Nicole Zhu's newsletter (https://nicoledonut.com/) The Making of a Manager by Julie Zhuo (https://www.juliezhuo.com/book/manager.html) Saving Time by Jenny Odell (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/672377/saving-time-by-jenny-odell/) Transcript: STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. And today, I'm joined by my friend and special guest, Nicole Zhu. NICOLE: Hi, I'm so excited to be here. My name is Nicole, and I am an Engineering manager at Vox Media and a writer. STEPHANIE: Amazing, I'm so thrilled to have you here. So, Nicole, we usually kick off the show by sharing a little bit about what's new in our world. And I can take us away and let you know about my very exciting weekend activities of taking down our Halloween skeleton. And yes, I know that it's April, but I feel like I've been seeing the 12-foot Home Depot skeletons everywhere. And it's becoming a thing for people to leave up just their Halloween decorations and, just as the other holidays keep rolling on, changing it up so that their skeleton is wearing like bunny ears for Easter or a leprechaun hat for St. Patrick's Day. And we've been definitely on the weird skeleton in front of the house long past the Halloween train for a few years now. Our skeleton's name is Gary. And it's funny because he's like a science classroom skeleton, so not just plastic. He's actually quite heavy. NICOLE: He's got some meat to the bones. [laughs] STEPHANIE: Yeah, yeah, and physiologically correct. But we like to keep him out till spring because we got to put him away at some point so that people are excited again when he comes back out in October. And the kids on our block really love him. And yeah, that's what I did this weekend. [laughs] NICOLE: I love it. I would love to meet Gary one day. Sounds very exciting. [laughs] I do get why you'd want to dress up the skeleton, especially if it's 12 feet tall because it's a lot of work to put up and take down for just one month, but that's fascinating. For me, something new in my world is the return of "Succession," the TV show. STEPHANIE: Oh yes. NICOLE: I did not watch yesterday's episode, so I'm already spoiled, but that's okay. But I've been getting a lot of Succession TikToks, and I've been learning a lot about the making of the show and the lives of the uber-rich. And in this one interview with Kieran Culkin, the interviewer asked him, "What's something that you learned in shooting the show about the uber-rich about billionaires that's maybe weird or unexpected?" And Kieran Culkin says that the uber-rich don't have coats because they're just shuttled everywhere in private jets and cars. They're not running to the grocery store, taking the subway, so they don't really wear coats, which I thought was fascinating. It makes a lot of sense. And then there was this really interesting clip too that was talking about the cinematography of the show. And what is really interesting about it is that it resists the wealth porn kind of lens because it's filmed in this mockumentary style that doesn't linger or have sweeping gestures of how majestic these beautiful cities and buildings and apartments they're in. Everything just seems very matter of fact because that is just the backdrop to their lives, which I think is so interesting how, yeah, I don't know, where I was like, I didn't ever really notice it. And now I can't stop seeing it when I watch the show where it's about miserable, rich people. And so I like that the visual language of the show reflects it too. STEPHANIE: Wow, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The coat thing really gets me because I'm just imagining if I could be perfectly climate controlled all the time. [laughs] NICOLE: Right? Oh my gosh, especially you're based in Chicago [laughs], that is when you can retire the winter coat. That is always an important phase. STEPHANIE: Yeah, seriously. I also am thinking now about just like the montages of showing a place, just movies or shows filmed in New York City or whatever, and it's such...so you know it's like the big city, right? NICOLE: Mmm-hmm, mm-hmm. STEPHANIE: And all of that setup. And it's really interesting to hear that stylistically, that is also different for a show like this where they're trying to convey a certain message. NICOLE: Yeah, yeah, definitely. STEPHANIE: So I'm really excited to have you on The Bike Shed because I have known you for a few years. And you write this really amazing newsletter called "nicoledonut" about your writing practice. And it's a newsletter that I open every other week when you send out a dispatch. And last year at RubyConf, they had a conference track called Bringing Your Backgrounds With You. And there were talks that people gave about how the hobbies that they did outside of work or an identity that they held made them a better developer, like, affected how they showed up at work in a positive way. And as someone who has always been really impressed by the thoughtfulness that you apply to your writing practice, I was really curious about how that shows up for you as an engineering manager. NICOLE: Definitely a great question. And to provide a bit of context for listeners, I feel like I have to explain the newsletter title because it's odd. But there's a writer who I really love named Jenny Zhang, and her handle across the Internet is jennybagel. And so I was like, oh, that would be so funny. I should be nicoledonut. I do love donuts. My Neopets username was donutfiend, so it was -- STEPHANIE: Hell yeah. NICOLE: But anyway, so that was kind of...I was like, I need to come up with some fun title for this newsletter, and that is what I settled on. But yes, I've written personal essays and creative nonfiction. And my primary focus more recently these past few years has been fiction. And this newsletter was really kind of born out of a desire to learn in the open, provide resources, act as kind of a journal, and just process ideas about writing and what it means to kind of sustain a creative life. So it has definitely made me more reflective and proactively, like you said, kind of think about what that means in terms of how that transfers into my day job in engineering. I recently moved into management a little over a year ago, and before that, I was a senior full-stack engineer working on a lot of our audience experiences and websites and, previously, more of our editorial tools. So I think when it comes to obviously writing code and being more of an individual contributor, I think you had previously kind of touched on what does it mean to treat code as a craft? And I do think that there are a lot of similarities between those two things because I think there's creativity in engineering, of course. You have to think about going from something abstract to something concrete. In engineering, you're given generally, or you're defining kind of requirements and features and functionality. You may be make an engineering plan or something like that, an EDD, given those constraints. And then I think writing is very similar. You outline, and then you have to actually write the thing and then revise. I do think writing is not necessarily as collaborative as coding is, perhaps, but still similar overall in terms of an author having a vision, dealing with different constraints, if that's word count, if it's form or structure, if it's point of view, things like that. And that all determines what the outcome will be. You always learn something in the execution, the idea that planning can only take you so far. And at a certain point, you gather as much background knowledge and information and talk to as many people. Depending on the kinds of writing I do, I have or haven't done as much research. But at a certain point, the research becomes procrastination, and I know I need to actually just start writing. And similarly, with engineering, I think that's the piece is that once you actually start implementation, you start to uncover roadblocks. You uncover questions or complications or things like that. And so I think that's always the exciting part is you can't really always know the road ahead of you until you start the journey. And I also think that in order to benefit from mentorship and feedback...we can talk more about this. I know that that's something that is kind of a larger topic. And then another thing I think where the two are really similar is there's this endless learning that goes with each of them. I guess that's true of, I think, most crafts. Good practitioners of the craft, I think, take on that mindset. But I do think that obviously, in engineering, you have industry changes, new technologies emerging really frequently. But I do think that good writers think about that, too, in terms of what new novels are coming out. But also, how do you build a solid foundation? And I do think it's that contrast that applies in any craft is, you know, you want to have a good solid foundation and learn the basics but then keep up to date with new things as well. So I think there was this...there's this meme I actually did include in the newsletter that was...it's the meme of these two guys looking at different windows of a bus, and one looks really sad, and one looks really happy. But the two of them have the same caption, which is there's always more to learn. And so I think that is the two sides of the coin [laughs]. I think that is relevant in engineering and writing that I've kind of brought to both of those practices is trying to be optimistic [laughs] about the idea that there's always more to learn that that's kind of the thought of it. And then certainly, when it comes to management, I do think that writing has proven really valuable in that very obvious sense of kind of practical communication where I just write a lot more. I write a lot more things that are not code, I should say, as a manager. And communication is really at the forefront of my job, and so is demonstrating curiosity and building empathy, fostering relationships with people. And I do think that particularly writing fiction you have to be curious about people I think to be a writer. And I think that is true of managers as well. So I do think that has been a really interesting way that I didn't anticipate writing showing up in my day job but has been a really helpful thing and has made my work stronger and think about the people, the process, and kind of what we do and why a little differently. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. Wow, you got into a lot of different things I'm excited to keep discussing further. But one thing that I was thinking about as you were talking was, have you heard of the adage, I guess, that code is read many more times than it's written? NICOLE: Hmm, I think I have, yeah. STEPHANIE: I was thinking about that as you were talking because, in some ways, in most ways, actually, if you ascribe to that adage, I suppose, we write code for others to read. And I think there's an aspect of code telling a story that is really interesting. I've heard a lot of people advocate for writing, thoughtbot included, writing your tests like they're telling a story. And so when a future developer is trying to understand what's going on, they can read the tests, understand the setup, read what is being tested, and then read what the expected outcome is and have a complete picture of what's going on. The same goes for commit messages. You are writing little bits of documentation for people in the future. And I've also been thinking about how legacy code is just this artifact as well of all of the changes that an organization might have gone through. And so when you see something that you see a bit of code that is really weird or gets your spidey senses tingling, it's almost like, oh, I wonder what happened here that led to this piece left behind? NICOLE: Yeah, definitely. Now that you're talking about it, I also think of pull requests as a great way to employ storytelling. I remember there definitely have been times where myself or other engineers are working on a really thorny problem, and we always joke that the PR description is longer than the change. And it's like, but you got to read the PR description in order to understand what change you're making and why. And here's the backstory, the context to kind of center people in that. As a manager, I think about storytelling a lot in terms of defining purpose and providing clarity for teams. I was reading Julie Zhuo's "The Making of a Manager," and it was a really kind of foundational text for me when I first was exploring management. And she kind of boils it down to people, purpose, and process. And so I do think the purpose part of that is really tied to clear communication. And can you tell a story of what we're doing from really high-level vision and then more tactically strategy? And then making sure that people have bought into that, they understand, can kind of repeat that without you being there to remind them necessarily. Because you really want that message to carry through in the work and that they have that understanding. Vision is something I only recently have really started to realize how difficult it is to articulate. It's like you don't really understand the purpose of vision until you maybe don't have one, or you've been kind of just trying to keep your head afloat, and you don't have a Northstar to work towards. But I do think that is what plays into motivation, and team health, and, obviously, quality of the product. So yeah, that's kind of another dimension I've been thinking of. And also our foes actually. Sorry, another one. Our foes, I think, like outages and incidents. I think that's always a fun opportunity to talk about stories. There was a period of time where every time we had an incident, you had to present that incident and a recap of it in an engineering all-hands every month. And they ended up being really fun. We turned something that is ostensibly very stressful into something that was very entertaining that people could really get on board with and would learn something from. And we had the funniest one; I think was...we called it the Thanks Obama Outage because there was an outage that was caused by a photo of Barack Obama that had been uploaded in our content management system, as required no less, that had some malformed metadata or something that just broke everything. And so, again, it was a really difficult issue [laughs] and a long outage. And that was the result that I remember that presentation being really fun. And again, kind of like mythmaking in a way where that is something that we remember. We pay attention to that part of the codebase a lot now. It's taught us a lot. So yeah, I do think storytelling isn't always necessarily the super serious thing, but it can also just be team building, and morale, and culture as well. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. I think what you said about vision really resonates with me because if you don't have the vision, then you're also not making the best decisions you can be making even something as low-level as how you write the code. Because if you don't know are we going to be changing this feature a month from now, that might dictate how you go forth with implementation as opposed to if you know that it's not in the company's vision to really be doing anything else with this particular feature. And you then might feel a little more comfortable with a more rudimentary approach, right? NICOLE: Yeah, totally. Whether or not it's, we've over-optimized or not or kind of optimized for speed. Like, it's all about trade-offs. And I do think, again, like you said, having a vision that always you can check your decision-making against and inform the path ahead I think is very, very helpful. STEPHANIE: When you write, do you also keep that in mind? Like, do you write with that North Star? And is that really important to your process? NICOLE: I think it depends. I think that writing can be a little more at a slant, I suppose, is how I think of it because I don't always...just similar to work, I don't always come in with a fully-fledged fleshed-out vision of what I want a piece to be. The most recent piece I've been working on actually I did have kind of a pretty, I think, solid foundation. I've been working on this story about loneliness. And I knew that I wanted to base the structure on the UCLA...a UCLA clinic has this questionnaire that's 20 items long that is about measuring loneliness on a scale. And so I was like, okay, I knew that I wanted to examine dimensions of loneliness, and that would be the structure. It would be 20 questions, and it would be in that format. So that gave me a lot more to start with of, you know, here's where I want the piece to go. Here's what I want it to do. And then there have definitely been other cases where it's more that the conceit seems interesting; a character comes to mind. I overhear a conversation on the subway, and I think it's funny, and that becomes the first thing that is put on the page. So I definitely have different entry points, I think, into a draft. But I will definitely say that revision is the phase where that always gets clarified. And it has to, I think, because as much as I'm sometimes just writing for vibes, it's not always like that. And I do think that the purpose of revision is to clarify your goals so you can then really look at the piece and be like, is it doing what I want it to? Where is it lacking? Where's it really strong? Where's the pacing falling flat? And things like that. So I do think that sooner or later, that clarity comes, and that vision comes into focus. But it isn't always the first thing that happens, I think, because I do think the creative process is a little bit more mysterious, shall we say, than working on an engineering team. [laughs] STEPHANIE: Yeah. Well, you started off responding to my question with it depends, which is a very engineering answer, but I suppose -- NICOLE: That is true. That is true. You got me. [laughs] STEPHANIE: It applies to both. MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. 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NICOLE: When it comes to receiving feedback, I think I wrote a two-part series of my newsletter, one that was about providing feedback, one that was about receiving it. I think on the side of receiving feedback, first and foremost, I think it's important to know when you're ready to share your work and know that you can share multiple times. In writing, that can be I show a very early draft to my partner who is the person who kind of reads everything and anything at any stage. It's something less polished, and I'm really just testing ideas. But then obviously, if there's something that is more polished, that is something I would want to bring to a writing group, bring into a workshop, things like that. Similarly, as engineers, I think...thank God for GitHub drafts actually adopting literally the way in which I think of that, right? STEPHANIE: Yeah. NICOLE: You can share a branch or a GitHub PR in progress and just check the approach. I've done that so many times, and really that helped so much with my own learning and learning from mentors in my own organization was checking in early and trying to gut-check my work earlier as opposed to later. Because then you feel, I think, again, a bit more naturally receptive because you're already in that questioning phase. You're not like, oh, this is polished, and I've written all the tests, and the PR description is done. And now you want me to go back and change the whole approach from the ground up. That can feel tough. I get that. And so I think, hand in hand, what goes with that is whose feedback are you interested in? Is that a peer? Is it a mentor? I think obviously leaning on your own team, on senior engineers, I do think that is one of the primary, I think, expectations of a senior engineer is kind of multiplying the effectiveness of their peers and helping them learn and grow. So I do think that that's a really valuable skill to develop on that end, but also, again, just approaching people. And obviously, different teams have different processes for that, if it's daily stand-ups, if it's GitHub reminders, automated messages that get pulled up in your channel, things like that. But there are ways to build that into your day-to-day, which I think is really beneficial too. And then there's also the phase of priming yourself to receive the feedback. And I think there's actually a lot of emotional work that I don't think we talk about when it comes to that. Because receiving feedback can always be vulnerable, and it can bring up unexpected emotions. And I think learning how to regulate the emotional response to that is really valuable for us as people but obviously within the workplace too. So I've found it really helpful to reflect if I'm getting feedback that...well, first of all, it depends on the format. So I think some people prefer verbal feedback, some people will prefer written. I think getting it in the form of written feedback can be helpful because it provides you some distance. You don't have to respond in the moment. And so I've definitely had cases where I then kind of want to reflect on why certain suggestions might elicit certain reactions if I have a fight or flight response, if I'm feeling ashamed or frustrated, or indignant, all the range of emotions. Emotions are, to put the engineering hat on, are information. And so I think listening to that, not letting it rule you per se but letting it inform and help you figure out what is this telling me and how do I then respond, or what should I do next? Is really valuable. Because sometimes it's not, again, actually the feedback; maybe it's more about that, oh, it's a really radical idea. Maybe it's a really...it's an approach I didn't even consider, and it would take a lot of work. But again, maybe if I sit and think about it, it is the scalable approach. It's the cleaner approach, things like that. Or are they just touching on something that I maybe haven't thought as deeply about? And so I think there is that piece too. Is it the delivery? Is it something about your context or history with the person giving the feedback too? I think all of those, the relationship building, the trust on a team, all plays into feedback. And obviously, we can create better conditions for exchanging and receiving feedback. But I do think there's still that companion piece that is also just about, again, fostering team trust and culture overall because that is the thing that makes these conversations all the easier and less, I think, potentially fraught or high pressure. STEPHANIE: 100%. Listeners can't see, but I was nodding very aggressively [laughs] this entire time. NICOLE: Loved it. STEPHANIE: And I love that you bring up interpersonal relationships, team culture, and feelings. Listeners of the show will know that I love talking about feelings. But I wanted to ask you this exact question because I think code review can be so fraught. And I've seen it be a source of conflict and tension. And I personally have always wanted more tools for giving better feedback. Because when I do give feedback, it's for the person to feel supported to help push their work to be better and for us to do good work as a team. And I am really sensitive to the way that I give feedback because I know what it's like to receive feedback that doesn't land well. And when you were talking about investigating what kinds of feelings come up when you do receive a certain kind of comment on a code review or something, that was really interesting to me. Because I definitely know what it's like to have worked really, really hard on a pull request and for it to feel very precious to me and then to receive a lot of change requests or whatever. It can be really disappointing or really frustrating or whatever. And yeah, I wish that we, as an industry, could talk about this stuff more frequently. NICOLE: Yeah, for sure. And I do think that you know, I think the longer you work with someone, ideally, again, the stronger relationship you form. You find your own ways of communicating that work for you. I think actually what I've learned in management is, yes, I have a communication style, but I also am flexible with how I work with each of my reports, who, again, have very different working styles, communication styles, learning styles. I don't believe that the manager sets the standards. I think there is a balance there of meeting people where they are and giving them what they need while obviously maintaining your own values and practices. But yeah, certainly, again, I think that's why for perhaps more junior engineers, they might need more examples. They might not respond well to as terse a comment. But certainly, with engineers, senior engineers that I've worked with, when I was starting out, the more we developed a relationship, they could just get a little bit more terse. For example, they could be like, "Fix this, fix that," and I would not take it personally because we had already gone through the phase where they were providing maybe some more detailed feedback, links to other examples or gists, or things like that, and our communication styles evolved. And so I do think that's another thing to think about as well is that it doesn't have to be static. I think that's the value of a team, and having good team process, too, is ideally having arenas in which you can talk about how these kinds of things are going. Are we happy with the cadence? Are we happy with how people are treating each other and things like that? Are we getting timely feedback and things like that? That's a good opportunity for a retrospective and to talk about that in a kind of blameless context and approach that more holistically. So I do think that, yeah, feedback can be very fraught. And I think what can be difficult in the world of engineering is that it can be very easy to then just be like, well, this is just the best way for the work. And feelings are, like you said, not really kind of considered. And, again, software development and engineering is a team sport. And so I do think fostering the environment in which everyone can be doing great work is really the imperative. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I really like how you talked about the dynamic nature of relationships on a team and that the communication style can change there when you have built that trust and you understand where another person is coming from. I was also thinking about the question of whose feedback are you interested in? And I certainly can remember times where I requested a review from someone in particular because maybe they had more context about this particular thing I was working on, and I wanted to make sure that I didn't miss anything, or someone else who maybe I had something to learn from them. And that is one way of making feedback work for me and being set up to receive it well. Because as much as...like you said, it's really easy to fall back into the argument of like, oh, what's the best way for the work, or what is the cleanest code or whatever? I am still a person who wrote it. I produced a piece of work and have feelings about it. And so I have really enjoyed just learning more about how I react to feedback and trying to mitigate the stress that I feel in what is kind of inherently like a conflict-generating process. NICOLE: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Another thing that kind of popped into my head to one of the earlier questions we were talking about is in terms of similarities between writing and engineering, style and structure are both really, really important. And even though in engineering, like you said, sometimes it can be, I mean, there is a point with engineering where you're like, this line of code works, or it doesn't. There is a degree of correctness [laughs] that you do have to meet, obviously. But again, after that, it can be personal preference. It's why we have linters that have certain styles or things like that to try to eliminate some of these more divisive, shall we say, potentially discussions around, [laughs] God forbid, tabs or spaces, naming conventions, all this stuff. But certainly, yeah, when it comes to structuring code, the style, or whatever else, like you said, there's a human lens to that. And so I think making sure that we are accounting for that in the process is really important, and not just whether or not the work gets done but also how the work gets done is really important. Because it predicts what do future projects...what does future collaboration look like? And again, you're not just ever optimizing for one thing in one point of time. You're always...you're building teams. You're building products. So there's a long kind of lifecycle to think about. STEPHANIE: For sure. So after you get feedback and after you go through the revision process, I'm curious what you think about the idea of what is good enough in the context of your writing. And then also, if that has influenced when you think a feature is done or the code is as good as you want it to be. NICOLE: Yeah, definitely. I think when it comes to my writing, how I think about what is good enough I think there is the kind of sentiment common in the writer community that you can edit yourself to death. You can revise forever if you wanted to. It's also kind of why I don't like to go back and read things I've already published because I'm always going to find something, you know, an errant comma or like, oh, man, I wish I had rephrased this here. But I do think that, for me, I think about a couple of questions that help me get a sense of is this in a good place to, you know, for me generally, it's just to start submitting to places for publication. So one of those is, has someone else read it? That is always a really big question, whether it's a trusted reader, if I brought it to a workshop, or just my writing group, making sure I have a set of outside eyes, fresh eyes on the piece to give their reaction. And again, truly as a reader, sometimes just as a reader, not even as a fellow writer, because I do think different audiences will take different things and provide different types of feedback. Another one is what kinds of changes am I making at this point in time? Am I still making really big structural edits? Or am I just kind of pushing words and commas around, and it feels like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? They're not massive changes to the piece. And then the final question is always, if this were published in its current state right now, would I be happy with it? Would I be proud of it? And that's a very gut feeling that I think only an individual can kind of feel for themselves. And sometimes it's like, no, I don't like the way, like, I know it's 95% there, but I don't like the way this ends or something else. Again, those are all useful signals for me about whether a piece is complete or ready for submission or anything like that. I think when it comes to engineering, I think there's a little bit less of the gut feeling, to be honest, because we have standards. We have processes in place generally on teams where it's like, is the feature working? Have you written tests? Have you written a QA plan if it needs one? If it's something that needs more extensive documentation or code comments or something like that, is that something you've done? Has a bit more of a clear runway for me in terms of figuring out when something is ready to be shown to others. But certainly, as a manager, I've written a lot more types of documents I suppose, or types of communication where it's like organizational changes. I've written team announcements. I've written celebration posts. I've had to deliver bad news. Like, those are all things that you don't think about necessarily. But I've definitely had literally, you know, I have Google Docs of drafts of like, I need to draft the Slack message. And even though it's just a Slack message, I will spend time trying to make sure I've credited all the right people, or provided all the context, got all the right answers. I run it by my director, my peers, and things like that if it's relevant. And again, I think there is still that piece that comes in of drafting, getting feedback, revising, and then feeling like, okay, have I done my due diligence here, and is it ready? That cycle is applicable in many, many situations. But yeah, I certainly think for direct IC work, it's probably a little bit more well-defined than some of the other processes. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that makes sense. I really liked what you said about noticing the difference between making big structural changes and little word adjustments. I think you called it pushing commas around or something like that. NICOLE: [laughs] Yeah. STEPHANIE: I love that. Because I do think that with programming, there is definitely a big part of it that's just going on the journey and exploring different avenues. And so if you do suddenly think of, oh, I just thought of a completely different way to write this code, that is worth exploring even if you just end up going back to the original implementation. But at least you saw that thought through, and you're like, okay, this doesn't work because of X, Y, and Z, and I'm choosing to go this other route instead. And I think that, yeah, that is just a good practice to explore. NICOLE: Another example of storytelling, too, where it's like, you can tell the story in the PR description or whatever, in stand-up, to be like, I also did go down this path, XYZ reason. Here's why it didn't work out, and here's what we're optimizing for. And there you go. So I do think we talk...I guess product managers think more about buy-in, but I think that's true of engineers too. It's like, how do you build consensus and provide context? And so yeah, I think what you were saying, too, even if the path is circuitous or you're exploring other avenues, talking to other people, and just exploring what's out there, it all adds up to kind of the final decision and might provide, again, some useful information for other people to understand how you arrived there and get on board with it. STEPHANIE: 100%. I remember when I worked with someone who we were writing a PR description together because we had paired on some code. And we had tried three different things. And he wrote paragraphs for each thing that we tried. And I was like, wow, I don't know if I would have done that on my own. But I just learned the value of doing that to, like you said, prime yourself for feedback as well, being like, I did try this, and this is what I thought. And other people can disagree with you, but then at least they have the information, right? NICOLE: Definitely. STEPHANIE: So before we wrap up, the last thing that I wanted to talk about, because I think it's super cool, is just how you have a totally separate hobby and skill and practice that you invest time and energy into that's not programming. And it's so refreshing for me to see you do that because I think, obviously, there's this false idea that programmers just code all the time in their free time, in their spare time, whatever. And I'm really curious about how writing fits into your life as something separate from your day job. NICOLE: Yes, I've been thinking about this a ton. I think a lot of people, the last couple of years has forced a really big reckoning about work and life and how much we're giving to work, the boundaries that can be blurred, how capitalism butts its head into hobbies, and how we monetize them, or everything is a side hustle. And, oh, you should have a page running...oh, you should charge for a newsletter. And I think there's obviously the side of we should value our labor, but also, I don't want everything in my life to be labor. [laughs] So I do think that is interesting. Writing to me, I actually do not see it as a hobby. I see it as another career of mine. I feel like I have two careers, but I have one job, [laughs] if that makes sense. I certainly have hobbies. But for me, what distinguishes that from my writing is that with hobbies, there's no expectation that you want to get better. You approach it with just...it's just pure enjoyment. And certainly, writing has part of that for me, but I have aspirations to publish. I love it when my work can reach readers and things like that. But I do think that regardless having other interests, like you said, outside engineering, outside technology, it's a great break. And I do think also in technology, in particular, I notice...I think we're getting away from it, but certainly, there's an expectation, like you said, that you will have side projects that you code in your free time, that you're on Hacker News. I think there is a little bit of that vibe in the tech industry that I don't see in other industries. You don't expect a teacher to want to teach in their free time, [laughs] you know what I mean? But we have almost that kind of implicit expectation of engineers to always be staying up to date on those things. I think with writing and engineering; the two complement each other in some interesting ways. And they make me appreciate things about the other craft or practice that I may not previously have. And I think that with engineering, it is a team effort. It's really collaborative, and I really love working in that space. But on the flip side, too, with writing, I do love, you know, there's the ego part of it. You don't have individual authorship over code necessarily unless it's git blame level. But there's a reason why it's called git blame, [laughter] even the word is like git blame. I've literally had cases where I'm like, oh, this thing is broken. Who wrote this? And then I was like, oh, surprise, it was you six years ago. But I do think with writing; it's an opportunity for me to really just explore and ask questions, and things don't have to be solved. It can just be play. And it is a place where I feel like everything that I accomplish is...obviously, I have people in my life who really support me, but it is a much more individual activity. So it is kind of the right-left brain piece. But I've been reading this book called "Saving Time." It is what my microphone is currently propped on. But it's by Jenny Odell, who wrote: "How to Do Nothing." It's breaking my brain in a really, really, really good way. It talks a lot about the origin of productivity, how we think about time, and how it is so tied to colonialism, and racism, and capitalism, and neoliberalism, all these things. I think it has been really interesting. And so thinking about boundaries between work and writing has been really, really helpful because I really love my job; I'm not only my job. And so I think having that clarity and then being like, well, what does that mean in terms of how I divide my time, how I set examples for others at work in terms of taking time off or leaving the office on time? And trying to make sure that I have a good emotional headspace so that I can transition to writing after work; all those things. I think it is really interesting. And that also, ultimately, it's we're not just our productivity either. And I think writing can be very, again, inherently kind of unproductive. People joke that cleaning is writing, doing the dishes is writing, taking a walk is writing, showering is writing, but it is true. I think that the art doesn't talk about efficiency. You can't, I think, make art always more efficient in the same way you can do with engineering. We don't have those same kinds of conversations. And I really like having that kind of distinction. Not that I don't like problem-solving with constraints and trade-offs and things like that, but I also really like that meandering quality of art and writing. So yeah, I've been thinking a lot more about collective time management, I guess, and what that means in terms of work, writing, and then yeah, hobbies and personal life. There are never enough hours in the day. But as this book is teaching me, again, maybe it's more about paradigm shifting and also collective policies we can be putting in place to help make that feeling go away. STEPHANIE: For sure. Thank you for that distinction between hobby and career. I really liked that because it's a very generative mindset. It's like a both...and... rather than an either...or... And yeah, I completely agree with you wanting to make your life expansive, like, have all of the things. I'm also a big fan of Jenny Odell. I plugged "How to Do Nothing" on another episode. I am excited to read her second book as well. NICOLE: I think you'll like it a lot. It's really excellent. She does such interesting things talking about ecology and geology and geographic time skills, which is really interesting that I don't know; it's nice to be reminded that we are small. [laughter] It's a book that kind of reminds you of your mortality in a good way, if that makes sense. But much like Gary on your porch reminds you of mortality too [laughs] and that you have to put Gary away for a little bit so that his time can come in October. [laughs] STEPHANIE: Exactly, exactly. Cool. On that note, let's wrap up. Thank you so much for being on the show, Nicole. NICOLE: Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. STEPHANIE: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

INTRODUCTION: Award-winning health expert Nicole Kerr is the co-author of Eating the Rainbow: Lifelong Nutritional Wellness—Without Lies, Hype, or Calculus. She has appeared on CNN, PBS, CBS, ABC, the Food Channel, and a host of other TV and radio shows to share her unique perspective on wellness, lifestyle, and nutrition.   For the past 30 years, Nicole has worked in all sectors of society, including ingovernment (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), non-profit(American Cancer Society), military (United States Air Force Medical Operations),academia (University of Hawaii), healthcare institutions/hospitals (AdventistHealth Castle and Queens Medical Center), corporate settings (Sea Ties, LLC),and private consultation. Nicole's warm, engaging presentations have earned hera place in front of international audiences ranging from corporate foodproducers to health and medical associations. Throughout her career, she hasfocused on supporting people from every walk of life to make realistic,meaningful, happy choices for lifelong health and well-being.When she was a 19-year-old cadet at the United States Air Force Academy, Nicolewould be forced to learn how to live and love differently following aterrifying and transformative Near-Death Experience. Her memory of the crashcame back 20 years later, and it has taken Nicole almost another two decades toalign her soul, spirit, mind, and body, proving healing is certainly anon-linear process.A disabled veteran, Nicole now maintains a private practice primarily using NeuroEmotional Technique (NET) targeting the often overlooked domains of emotional,energy, and spiritual well-being.   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Spirits & Angels·      Second Chances·      Near Death Experiences (NDE's)·      Louisiana State University Nostalgia·      Religious Trauma·      Military Trauma·      Living With Fear·      PTSD·      Struggle Acquiring Veteran's Affairs Disability & Compensation·      Why Perspective Is Everything CONNECT WITH NICOLE: Website & Book: https://www.nicolekerr.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicole.a.kerrInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicole.angelique.kerr/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-kerr-8920438/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO·      Sex Addicts Anonymous: HTTPS://WWW.SAA.ORG ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]De'Vannon: You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.Have you had a near death experience? Have you felt that feeling where your life was either slipping away from you or you did actually slip away from this plane of existence and stepped into that white light? Saw your ancestors, spoke with angels. Well, if you have, you're not alone. My guest today, Nicole Kerr, has written a book called You Are Deathless, and in this book she details her experience being 19 years old, the cadet at the Air Force Academy in [00:01:00] Colorado, flying through the window of a convertible. Well, let's just say, I'll leaveall the gory details of what happened after that for you to listen to in this episode. She died, she came back to life, and now she's dedicated her life to helping other people live free of fear in this episode. We'll talk about everything from Angels to Louisiana State University to P T S D, to Veterans Affairs, drama, religious Trauma. You name it, we got it . So listen in, pay close attention and know that I love you.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and it is so lovely to see you as always. My guest today, her name is Nicole krs. She's an author and she has a bunch of acronyms. She's gonna explain to us what they mean in a minute, but their mph, h and r d n and b t d t [00:02:00] and n d e and all of these beautiful things.And she's an award-winning health expert. She's also a disabled Air force veteran like I am. Thank you for your service girl, and thank you. She has appeared on C N N P B S C B S A B C P Y T, all the different networks, the food channel, and a host of other TV and radio shows. And we're gonna talk about second and third chances today in health and wellness.How are you, Nicole? Nicole: I'm doing great. I am just delighted, excited, and grateful to be on your podcast today. So thank you very much, De'Vannon: Amsterdam Lutely, thank you for setting aside an hour of your life. Time is one of the resources that we cannot create more of as you well know. And so I don't take for granted what you choose to do with a whole hour.This, this is very, very special to me, so I appreciate the fuck out Nicole: of it. Aw, thank you. Likewise. De'Vannon: [00:03:00] Okay, so are y'all, Nicole like we, like we were just saying, was in the Air Force. There was a bad car accident. She died, she came back and this is kind of what set her story into motion. And so we'll be talking a lot about that.Many of us have had near death experiences, as have I. And so we'll chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. But before we get into that, let's talk a little bit about your education. You, you were saying that you went to L S U. I'm here in Baton Rouge. I go over to Lssu all the time. I, you see it, I party up there, tailgate up there and everything.So tell me about LSU for you. Nicole: I. L s u That was a stop for me where I got my dietetics certification and my brother also graduated from there. And we lived in Jackson, Mississippi for a long time and then moved down to Baton Rouge with my dad and brother's company called Yasu, the big Will mowing machines.So [00:04:00] that was the family business. And so I lived down there for several years while I was getting my Like I said, my nutrition and diet dietetics degree because I had developed an eating do eating disorder binge eating. It was called compulsive eating back in 1980 something when I first got it.But I did not get any mental health after my traumatic experience. My parents told the doctor when they said, Nicole needs to see a psychologist that Jesus and God was my psychologist. And needless to say, shortly after that I developed an eating disorder because I didn't know what to do with the pain and I didn't even know it was pain.So that lasted almost 40 years until I got married at 40. And then I've, I've worked hard. I've been in therapy. You name it, I've done it. And It just, you know, Jesus never came down and sat across from me and tried to help me, you [00:05:00] know, either talk therapy or any of these other modalities. And that's just not true.And it was really a disservice to me to not get the mental health. I had to pursue that on my own. And it was, it was challenging. De'Vannon: They used to say and damn, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. They're. You know, you already have like this near death trauma, now you've got religious trauma being pumped upon you too.They used to tell us in church to not be so heavenly minded that you're not so earthly good.It look. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what you get, get when now my parents, I call 'em religious addicts, but I did my formative years in Jackson, Mississippi and then I'm a people recovering people pleaser and I was pleasing. My dad, he was in the military. He was one of the first classes to go through the Air Force Academy and at that time [00:06:00] they had opened it, just opened it up to women to come to go into the service academy.So I was the sixth class of women. He was so proud of me that I got in. I was shocked that I did cuz I absolutely had no interest in the military. All of my background in high school and junior high was. Modeling junior achievement team boards nothing related to flying planes or going into this space program.So clearly I did it just for him. And let me tell you, that was the wrong reason. Cuz as soon as they dropped me off and closed the door and I went through that, bring me men wrap. My life changed and all of a sudden fear was the emotion and terror that dominated me. And my emotional state for at least the next year and a half until my crash happened.Because I was in constant fear that I was gonna fail, that I wasn't keeping [00:07:00] up. I was keeping my squadron, I was holding them back because I would fall outta runs. They sent me to remedial training. You know, I just didn't have that killer instinct. And I understand the reason we have a military, you know, to protect and defend, but every soul that goes into the military, in my opinion, is going to be fractured at some level.Because when you experience the theater or war and people being killed, or you know, You suffering parts of your soul fracture in order to preserve yourself. And so that's why we have so many injuries mentally, I think, and so many suicides with veterans especially, is because of that soul piece that just can't reconcile what they have seen and what they have done.So I knew in basic training that this was not for me, but I didn't know how to [00:08:00] quit. I didn't know how to say no to my father. Feel like a failure. The shame, the judgment, the condemnation. Cuz it takes a hell of a lot of work to get into academy. You gotta get a congressional rep nomination. You gotta pass all these tests.You, you know. And and I did it. And then I got there and I, I, three weeks into bootcamp, they gave us one phone call, three minutes. And I heard my mother pick up and she said, hello, and I hyperventilated and cried for three minutes. Then the commander comes in there and says, that's the end of your phone call.Go sit over there and get yourself together ke. And I was just like, I needed my parents to tell me I had permission to quit if I was, if this was not the place for me, I needed. To get out and I couldn't do it. And my mother turned to my father later and told me, what have we done to her? And he's like, ah, she'll be fine.And I [00:09:00] wasn't fine. I went from there to remedial, which is one-on-one, which is even worse, you know, because you're separated from your, your squadron. So it was that was the first panic attack I had. I didn't realize it until later, but I clearly lived with that level of fear and panic and pending doom dread.And it starts to just operate your system after a while. And it was really, I, I don't know. I, I don't know how I made it the first year, and then I knew the second year it was only gonna get tougher. And then that's when the crash happened. And I was getting a ride back with a fellow cadet who was a senior, didn't know him, but my dad had three rules, don't smoke, don't drink, and don't date upper cadets.Now I'm in a school with 4,000 guys. I'm now a sophomore. I actually can date you can't as a freshman, but I have never been on a date in my life. My dad did not. He was very conservative. He did not think dating [00:10:00] would do any good for me or spending the night with others. That was one of his commandments.There's the 10 commandments and there's my dad's 10 commandments. And spending the night with others was number one on, you do not do this. And even in church you don't sit with your friends, you have to sit with mom and dad. You can't fall asleep even though my dad fell asleep, you can't fall asleep.You know, it was, there was just a lot of rules. And having a Southern Baptist upbringing on my father's side and a Lutheran bringing on my mother's side living in the Bible belt, which is, as you know, the foundation of that area. I just got a lot of. Church thrown at me. And it was contradictory because the Lutherans were saying, this is the way to God.And the Baptists were saying this way. And, you know, it was just, I'm sure God was [00:11:00]confused, you know, about what, what he supposedly said. But that's when my car crash happened. And I know at a sole level that that is what got me out of the academy saving face because you, you know I couldn't go back. I, my injuries were so severe.I was in the hospital for four months, seven weeks in I c u two code Blues. And then 19 years later, I remembered my near death accident. I was working at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and went to Starbucks, got my coffee, and boom, the memory of how I was sitting in the Corvette convertible came back and And then the rest of the memory came back.So people said, well, why did it take 19 years? And I'm like, the only thing I can say to that is when your body feels safe enough, repressed memories as what they're known as will come up. [00:12:00]And that's what happened. And I got the complete story. And so I've been able now, 40 years later to finally publish my book.It's called You Are Deathless. And a near death experience taught me how to fully live and not fear death. It's taken me that long to first of all 20 years, had no memory, just the white lights. And then the next 20 was aligning myself and my search for body, soul, spirit, and mind to all come together.And it's been a journey, a healing journey, and it's not linear. A plus B does not equal C and the healing journey. That was a lot I just gave you.De'Vannon: Well, you know what, it sounded like you needed to get that out. I just, I'm happy to, to allow you to Nicole: do that. Plus southern girls, we can talk. De'Vannon: So, so take, [00:13:00] take me back though. Tell me what the, the MPH, H C R D and the B T D T stand Nicole: for. Okay. Master's in Public Health and, and I had an emphasis in nutrition and then R D N is registered dietician nutrition.So I've worked in hospitals. I was an oncology dietician, a wellness director B T D T I invented that or took it from somebody else, actually. Been there, done that. And that actually is my proudest letters of the alphabet after my name. Because experience trump's theory in any any day for me because it allows a person to have compassion sympathy and empathy.De'Vannon: Right. Ab a Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I say I wish this, this country in a, i I, I do not feel like the United States is the greatest country on the world, you know, in the world or nothing like that due to, due to the lack of like, character, you know, and, and the [00:14:00] lack of love that prevails here.And I don't care how much money, how rich it's supposed to be like this, this is a deplorable country and I, I really wish that people had to go to the military and or had to wait tables or had to be a janitor or had to do something like that for like some amount of time. And there are countries that have those requirements because then more people, then everyone would have some version of been there, done that as opposed to standing over here and judging from a distance.Yes. So so, so the title of her book y'all is called You Are Deathless. And and it, and it. You know, talks about, like a lot of, you know, what she's talking about right now, her website. I just wanna tell everyone, you know, it's nicole kerr.com that we'll be going in the show notes that she has a great blog on there and all kinds of information and everything like that too.So take me back to this car accident. You said you're in a a [00:15:00] convertible Corvette. Yeah. Nicole: I don't know if you can see it. De'Vannon: Okay. Yeah, I can see it. Okay. Nicole: That's August 8th 19. That's afterwards. De'Vannon: Okay. So, so, so after they untangled you, so y you just showed a picture of the Corvette for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, and it's basically, it's like somebody like Godzilla took this car, picked it up, twisted it around, and then like tried to.Fold it together, so, yeah. Yeah. So it almost looks like, almost looks like a square, like a, like a block rather than a, a motor vehicle. And so they were able to, to open up that can, I guess they, they had to have gotten the jaws of life or something out for that. So we Nicole: actually flew out of it cuz it was a convertible and we didn't have seat.The, the car didn't even have seat belts back then. And so when he hit the side of a boulder, okay, I was getting a ride back with a senior cadet, didn't know him. We had [00:16:00] been in an Air force function. They had provided beer to underage cadets and they broke their own rules. The officers left before the cadets and I was one of the, I was the last to leave.And so I asked him for a ride back and he said, sure. He had his own agenda. He wanted to go to another bar. He wanted to watch the sunset at the Rocky Mountains i e make out. And I started getting really nervous cuz we had curfew 7 35. We had to be back at the academy. And I didn't wanna get in trouble this year because last year I was, I.Innocently doing favors for people and I would get in trouble. So I marched tours, I served demerits, I served confinements, I did it all. And I was like, I am not doing that this year. So I was really worried about the time element. And he tried to make a sexual pass at me. My memory later revealed and I said no.And he got really angry at me and jerked the steering wheel. The car fishtailed out, and this is at Black Forest [00:17:00] park in Monument, which is just outside the academy. He hit a huge boulder, moved the boulder, the car flipped. We were both thrown out. I was thrown into a ditch. Some bystanders were, were close by, they called 9 1 1.They came out to look at me and they couldn't get any signs of life. So they got a blanket and they covered me up. And then when the Tri Lake Fire Department, and you can kind of see. That was the front page of the newspaper. So they're working on me. And you can see the car landed on its top. Mm-hmm.Okay. So I was gone when I flew out from the windshield, that's when I called it Casper the ghost in the book. But I was just revealed in my meditation in August and the [00:18:00] book was published in August that it was my grandfather that came in the form of an angel and lifted me took me up and so I never hit the ground.I knew when I hit the ground I was gonna die. I knew it, but I went up instead in his arms, and we went to this space. It wasn't really a place, it was just a space. And that's when I, I was not in bodily form. I could see my body on the ground, I could see it in the ditch. It was just a corpse, a mangled corpse.And so this spirit, my grandfather, now I, I, we went to this space and I could hear other voices, other angels, other spirit guides. They weren't speaking English. I don't know what they were. I don't know how I heard them and understood them, but I did telepathy, whatever, but I could hear and communicate.And [00:19:00] so there were two angels next to me and they were saying, you meaning humans need to ask the angelic realm for help. That was the first message, is they're not gonna interfere in our lives unless we ask for help because of free will. We have choices. So that is one of the first messages is start connecting with your angelic realm.We all have at least one guardian angel that's assigned to us. Some of us have more, but start the relationship with your angels or any angels. And people say to me well that's kinda like when you ask the angels to help you for a parking space. I said, it works. It absolutely works because it's not about how big or small something is, it's about the relationship that you can count on them and you can trust them.And it may not look like what you want, but [00:20:00] they will send you signs. You just have to be open-minded. Then the second message that I wanna make sure people hear that I received was to tell people not to be afraid of death. And I was like, whoa, that's a big one. That's a real big one. And I, and so at that moment I knew I was gonna go back in that body and I didn't want to, I was like, no, I do, I, I wanna stay up here because up there death was, or, or that transformation of myself was absolute beauty light, the white light that I had seen.It wasn't the operating or theater room lights. It was, it was the light that almost every near death experience or ex, you know, has Raymond Moody who coined the term near death [00:21:00]experience, that is the single most. Common element that people report is seeing this bright white light, and it's clear, it's not blinding and it's just comforting.It's like you're cocooned in it and it's just so peaceful and beautiful. And the colors on the other side are just magical beyond the, what is it now? 125 cray color box? Is that what we're up to? So, you know, why would you wanna come back from that? There's no negativity at all. So it's, you know, in our.World. I think, you know, every book that's almost written around the subject of death is cloaked with this veil of doom and gloom and death has a cloud of depression and negativity around it. Throughout our culture and society and my own [00:22:00] experience, and I hope yours and others, hundreds of thousands of people because they have enough to have actually studied this and put a report together to list the 10 common lessons of NDEs.And they're, every single one of 'em is positive. And the first one is we do not die. Hence the title of my book. You are deathless. Yes, your physical, your physical body is gonna die decompose. But when you die, your energy body splits open and your soul leaves you and goes home. And we have many.Incarnations of our soul. This isn't our only rodeo. So that was the mission, and it's taken me, I found that out. Okay, think about this. 19 years, I had a gap in my memory. And then boom, it all comes together. And then I have to figure out, okay, what does [00:23:00] does that mean? Because when I died at 19, I was fearful of death.I had the concept of God from my southern. Baptist upbringing and Lutheran, where the teaching was, if you were a bad person that God was duality on one side, God loved you, he would protect you. He was you know, loving, kind. But if you broke the rules, if you were a bad person, if you were a sinner, you would go to a place called Hell where the wrath of God would come and you would burn eternally.Now, as a six-year-old growing up, that scares the wey outta you. So you live your entire life in fear of doing something bad. And I call that concept a vending machine concept of God, and it's not correct. It's a false belief that is not who or what God is. [00:24:00] Yes, take the first part of it, the positive. But that whole second part was invented by man to keep people in fear, which would keep you in control De'Vannon: on the on the aspects of angels.And I think it's, I think it's a beautiful experience that you had. I just wanted to like, like to, to remind people that, you know, when you're speaking you know, two angels and, you know, different things like that, you know, d don't forget to ask them, you know, like how they're doing, you know, cause they're not.And Nicole: thank them. Please thank them after they give you what you De'Vannon: need. They're not, they're not, they're not, they're not God. And you know, they get That's right. They can get run down too. You know, we, we see this illustrated in the book of Daniel in the Bible when Gabriel is coming to the deliver Daniel, his message when he was fasting for those [00:25:00] three weeks for the Nation of Israel.And, and Gabriel is telling Daniel that he was delayed because, you know an op an op, an opposition withstood him until the arch angel Michael came to help him. And so, so th so this, this illustration lets us know that angels have limitations if they have to eat Mannas, because eventually they get run down and they have to be regenerated.So for me, it's not all about accessing the spiritual realm to, to, to get shit from them. You know? So I think that, I think, I think it's important to, to speak. Whenever you're speaking about more than just acquisition than what you can get from them. And so just be like mindful of that people. Nicole: Yeah.And angels come in many forms. You know, they're earth angels and I talk about that. And my book, they're is a chapter called Calling All Angels because I know that the e m t [00:26:00] that brought me back to life was one of my angels. He was they had me covered up, okay. He gets there, he's the first one on the scene, 10 to 13 minutes later, so I'm clinically dead for that long.They had me, you know, under the, he takes the blanket off, he can't get any sign of life. So he does something called a sternal knuckle rub. Have you ever heard of that? It's where they, they go up your, your sternum and it's designed to elicit pain. It's a pain response that the medical team uses. And boy, if there's any sign of life in you that would respond to pain, it's that.So the only sign of life you got was my right eye flickered and my pupil dilated. Now, what do we say about eyes and our souls? De'Vannon: Eyes are the window to the soul. Nicole: Yes. At that moment, my soul came back in through my eye. [00:27:00] I was dead before they couldn't get anything. Okay? So my soul, it left when I was up in the air.Okay? My body split open two out. It went, it comes back when he's doing that and, and, and I often wonder, You know, why did you bring me back? You know? And cuz it's been painful and it's been a hard journey. But that is when the soul came back into my body and at that point he was able to get a blood pressure reading on me of 60 zero.Now that's pretty much dead anyway, but at least he could get that. And they got me these mask pants on. They'd just gotten 'em on the bus That forces all your blood up to your heart. I had had multiple injuries. I cut off my left foot, I severed my right wrist. My pelvis was broken on both sides. Had a rash from skidding on the, the payment of grow burn that went three levels deep, a [00:28:00]laceration between my anal and feature because I remembered sitting in the car.And my leg is on the dashboard and my other leg processes it. Do you remember sitting like that in a convertible? Put your leg on the dashboard De'Vannon: sounds so, so, so California, Nicole: don't ever do that. If you're in an accident, that's the absolute worst way to get injuries. So I cut up my, I had a, a hole between my anal and sphincter muscle and then a huge hole like this cut out of my left thigh.So I had damage to my nerves. Lost the feeling in that whole sexual area. So it was cuz I went butt up through the windshield and so that cut my foot and that injured that area. So, It was just about getting me stabilized that night, and the doctor on call was a maverick. She was the first woman [00:29:00]surgeon in Colorado Springs.She was the first woman to go to medical school at Jefferson College. Let me tell you. She said multiple times, this is not in my hands anymore, you know, whether Nicole makes it. And I just kept coming back to life. You know, I had a surgery code blue, they had to cut me up from here to here and. My parents were in the chapel praying and the surgical nurse went in there and said, we've lost Nicole.I'm so sorry. And so my dad's like, well, we need to figure out where to barrier. And mom's like, I don't believe it. And then two minutes later another surgical nurse runs in and said her heart just started again. And and there was another incident where I had another near death experience and I have an angel that named James that is, that protects me.And I know that sounds weird, but I call him my military angel, but he is here to make sure I [00:30:00] get this message out because. There is no need to fear death. And there's so many of us that have been conditioned or brought up with belief systems where we scare, we're scared of death. And here's the deal.It's gonna happen at every one of us, and it could happen at any age. And that's the other thing is we need to start learning to prepare ourselves not only physically with wills and all that other stuff, but E, but emotionally and spiritually. And understanding that your beliefs about God, whatever that concept of God is, shapes your relationship with death.Because if you believed, like I did when I died, I disobeyed my father, and that's what he told me later when he came to the hospital. I. You had two beers, you smoked one cigarette. And this is [00:31:00]the first time I've done this in my life. At 19, I'm finally gonna have fun. Okay. And you were with a cadet and you kissed him, he kissed you.So in his eyes, I broke his rules and I deserved to quote what I got. So I disappointed God as well. And I have spent you not believe how much therapy I've had to try to let go of that being blamed. And it fractured my relationship with my parents and with my siblings because I felt so guilty about that.And I've been trying to make it up all these years. And then in the epilogue, you're not gonna believe this, but there were four roommates, four women that went in in my class at the same time in my squadron and my roommate. She dropped out. She quit that December of my accident. Okay? [00:32:00] So I had not talked to her in 38 years.I found her on Facebook. We, four girls got together this past May. The book was already at the editors ready to be published. And we all never knew what happened to her. She just never came back. After spring, after Christmas break, she said, Nicole, I'm so sorry. She said I caused the crash. I said, what? No you didn't.The guy did. He was drunk and he is making a pass at me. And you know, he crashed. And by the way, he survived. He even got to graduate cuz his dad wore three stars. But that's a whole nother story cuz rank has its privilege as we know. And she said, you had asked me for a ride back to the academy before the event even started.And I said, yes, we'll go back together. And then when it was over, There was another cadet who was drunk and he wanted me to drive his car back for him. And I really liked him and I wanted to be alone with [00:33:00] him. So when you got ready to get in the car, I told you no I really don't want you in the car.There's one other guy left over there, why don't you go get a ride back with him? And I said, but that guy's been drinking. And she said, oh, it doesn't matter. They've all been drinking. She said, it'll be fine. Just go have some fun, you know, and I'll see you back at the academy. And she never did. So she lived with 38 years of guilt and it still haunts her and she quit because she couldn't bear the thought that if she would've just given me a ride back, both of our lives would've been totally different.So you never know. And I never knew that. My memory part never came back of that conversation. And I said to her, why didn't you ever tell me before? And she goes, well, I just thought you knew. And you are angry at me. So it's so important to communicate trauma and your version of [00:34:00]something and someone else's version of something, because sometimes we just think somebody knows something, but we don't check it out with 'em, and then we go around believing something and it, it just devastates our life.You know, there, De'Vannon: there's so much loss in this life because of things left unsaid, be it in romantic relationships, business relationships. I agree with Nicole. Y'all open your fucking mouth and tell people what the hell you think, know and feel. Rather than assuming they should know or assuming they will know, magically know.Just make it simple. And just say it, even if you think you're stating the obvious, you know, sometimes you need to say the quiet part out loud because you know so much just to be sure everyone's on the same page. Yeah. You know it's, it's not cool to think that, you know, like in my, in my previous relationship that I, [00:35:00] that I just had to end.That, that was one of the things that, that my ex would never, you know, give me, I said, don't, don't ever have one version of reality operating within your head. And you know that I don't know that. Cuz then we're on divergent paths and I'm thinking that we're on the same page and really we're not. And you know, and the only way that that could have ever happened is if he would've opened his mouth and told me what he was feeling and thinking, which he never was able to do that.And so be it friendships or whatever the case may be, just fucking say what's going on rather than letting those negative thoughts come in and, and control you. You could disband that with clarity in communication. Nicole: Yes, and please do it before they die.Don't do it on their deathbed, you know, say the things you need to say now. And I, you know, and, and, and then I went and told my father, you know, dad, you know, I knew the guy was drunk and I, I just, you know, and I had [00:36:00] arranged a, a, a ride back and I was trying to defend myself to my father with this. And he says he still made a bad decision and you should have walked back to the academy.And then, That's when I just went, I haven't talked to my dad since, and I won't, I'm done with him. So, you know, and I was trying to be done with him before, but when he, he's never forgiven me. He's never said he is sorry. He is a narcissist. He is in that military mode my way or the highway. That's how we were raised.I know what's best for you. And he didn't, he never got to understand who I am. And when I published this book, he has not read it. And he just said, you better get God writer. You're really gonna get it. So there's just more fear and I'm just like, you know, my experience with God is God is love. Period, end of sentence, and love is all that matters and is the source of all that exists.And when you think about [00:37:00] source that is God and is there anywhere that God does not exist?De'Vannon: He is no ever president. He is everywhere. And video1562552333: in Nicole: my per, he's not external either. He's not, he's not out there to be looked for. He's within all of us. We are all eternal sparks of God. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. What I, what I you know, you know, Jesus describes the death. Like he, you know, in the Bible he told us to to, to basically mourn when somebody is born in a rejoice when they die.Because Yeah. When when you They're Nicole: going back home. Yeah. When you, and they're not gonna remember any of this negative stuff. You know? It's like when I got over to the, to the other side God was all around me. God was in me. God, I, you know, I was God. God was present and fullness and oneness. And [00:38:00] most of all, God was love, pure, non-judgmental love.And in that state it was not that I suddenly had been forgiven for my mistakes, is that they no longer existed. Nothing I had done on Earth was being weighed or measured. It was simply the way my story had played out in one realm.So that's another lesson coming from the NDEs is part of the 10 of 'em is we are not judged. And I think one of the worst things we do to ourselves present day is we judge our thoughts, we judge our emotions, we judge our each other. And if we can just get rid of the judgment. That would be De'Vannon: huge, right?God is the God of mercy in, in the, you know, and you know, he [00:39:00] said, judge, not, you know, it's really just that simple. But, you know, we learn all of that judgment from broken people who have positions of authority over our lives, you know, and things like that in society. But that, you know, from the beginning it was not so.You know even the, I think video1562552333: that, Nicole: I think, yeah, I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with religion is the hypocrisy that goes on, especially with things like Jesus's words. I mean, when people say, who would you like to have dinner with? I said, Jesus, I would like to ask him what he thinks of how people have interpreted what he has, quote said or not said based on the Bible.Bless you. And one of the things is the judgment judge, not less G B B judged, you know, and they're judging. You because you're, you're gay because you're whatever the condition is. There's just [00:40:00] still so much judgment and, and it's causing so much fractionation and just anger and hatred and, and it, and it's just like, wow.That is not at all what Jesus meant by that. You know, it's, it's quit judging others and don't judge yourself because that just lowers your esteem and lowers your own vibration. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: Right. Now, I'm curious some of the other, the common themes of near death experiences besides the white light. You, you said they had, they had done research to find some commonalities.What are some of the other commonalities? Okay. Nicole: We are never alone. That's a big one because people believe like when the with the pandemic, a lot of people were dying alone, but we are never alone. The spiritual realm is always around us and when we die, Angels, deceased, loved ones. Even our deceased [00:41:00] pets, they meet us.And so we, that's why you see people, like, they'll start grabbing at things as they're dying. You know, they'll, they'll, and you're going, what are they grabbing at? But it's like they're having a window into the other realm, across the ba. So they keep switching from that, that perspective to back here on earth, that perspective.And then they finally transition. But we are never alone. We always have a spiritual angel guy, somebody with us. And I think that's more from the human part of us that wants to be there for someone, for us to feel better about ourselves, that we were there. But I know, and I talk about this in the book, a lot of people choose to die when nobody is around.My brother-in-law died from a l s at 51. House full of people. He waited till everyone was out of his room [00:42:00] at some point in the night and passed. He did not want anybody else around him, you know, and I know other people's same situations. They had, had people monitoring, and when someone goes and gets a cup of coffee, the person, you know makes their transition.So I think that is up to the person. And you don't, you know, your, in my opinion, your job is to hold the space for that person as they as they go through this. And I know the human form with death because we are human. There's still suffering, there's still grief, pain, loss, and we have to carefully and compassionately hold and heal that with people.But the cosmic context is benevolent and extraordinary of a what awaits us. And if [00:43:00] we know that true context, it's gonna enable us to live a happier life and prepare for our own graceful passing, you know, not to be resistant and to support others as they approach their own transition. I know that was a lot.De'Vannon: Well Nicole: for me, so that's another one. We're not, we're never alone. We are not judged. Everyone and everything is connected.Okay? We are all energy. When we leave this body that breath. Think about it. When you see somebody at a funeral, they're laid out. The cosmetologist has worked on 'em. They don't, in my opinion, I don't know about you. They just don't look like they did. [00:44:00] They can never get their hair right or their makeup. It just doesn't look like them.Right? And that's because the light, that beautiful light of the energy has been lifted out of them. And that's that breath. The breath. If you see it on a cold day, you see your breath, it vaporizes, its energy transforms. And so we are all connected and we need to start paying attention to the energy and start thinking about, your energy affects me, mine affects, you know, we're all in this, this together.And it doesn't matter the differences because when we. Transition. We go into that, that, that form of soul, which is energy. It's not a human body.[00:45:00]De'Vannon: I, I want you to talk about like your road to rehabilitation. So you let's take it back like physically now, did you have to do like a lot of physical therapy? Were there multiple surgeries? Like when were you able to like, come out of the hospital and go home? Like, and then after that, did you have continued.Rehabilitation. How did it work physically to get you back to, to good? I Nicole: was in i c u now they took me to the closest hospital, which was a community hospital, and they were not prepared for trauma at that hospital, so they had to bring in, I was too critical to move. So they had to bring in ano another nurse.I had to have two nurses on me at all times. I was so critical. They had to bring in nine different specialists. Okay. So they had to bring in an infectious d disease specialist from Denver, because I had three infections set in from all the fiberglass, the feces, the, the, all that stuff that [00:46:00] mixes up in you.I got gang green and sepsis in my right leg. I almost, I was on the verge of amputation of that, and I didn't know it until after it passed. So I was hooked up at one point to 10 different IVs. Okay. And. They had to do what they call a subclavian to put it in there because you run out of veins after a while.So the doctor described to my mother, she is very, very, very three very sick. Okay. And every day it was, I don't know if she's gonna be alive or if she's gonna die today. That's how serious it was. I had to have a colostomy. I don't know if many people know what that is, but that's where they, they cut your where your bowels are and they pull out part of your bowel and they resection that so that you can go to the bathroom.And so here I am at 19 and I wake up from a surgery with my [00:47:00] intestine in a bag, part of it, and going, I've never had sex with anybody. I, I, no one's gonna wanna have sex with me, you know, when they see that back, cuz I couldn't stand it. And so one was an emergency operation from all the infections and they I coded on the way to the operating room.So they couldn't give me the amount of anesthesia that they needed to put, put me out because they would've lost me again. So I went in, like on a muscle relaxer and of Tata anesthesia, and I could feel them, I could hear them talking, I could feel them pulling my stomach. But I couldn't move, I couldn't say anything.And it was awful. It was awful to, to, to feel all this and to hear all this and not be able to do anything. You know, you're just immobile. I had to have my foot sewn [00:48:00] back on, so I had to have. Two skin grafts done. They took it off my thigh and one was the inside of my right thigh that they had to, to plug up with this huge hole.And then the other skin graft went directly onto the tendon on my foot to keep it together. It had a 5% chance of taking, and it did. And the doctor, it's written up in the Denver Medical Journal because it was just unbelievable that it would graft without having to granulate and just. Here, right on the tendon.Now, today, I still have issues. I have to wear those lovely compression socking, but I got my foot. I'm so grateful. I still have my foot. But you know, I have bowel issues from it, from the colostomy. They did reverse the colostomy, but it was, you know, I, I just, and then migraines and the va finally, finally, after 38 years, gave me a hundred percent, I call it [00:49:00] compensation.I don't call it disability, I call it compensation rating. And it took me that many times. I was on my third appeal and the VA rep from North Carolina just moved here. And he said, Nicole, it says, clear in your notes a patient thought initially dead on arrival. That means you had a head injury. Okay. So I don't know how they have missed that all these years.And we filed it with just that phrase. And next thing I know, the money showed up at the bank and I was granted, you know, permanent disability. And I'm just like, I, I think it's just a persistence challenge with the VA and the right wording, because that was my last attempt. They only give you three, but I am finally in that and can get compensated in that, that realm.So I don't have to work because I worked for a long time and I have P T S D and that was only diagnosed two years [00:50:00] ago. So I'd been trying to push myself through things that were so stressful, making the p t s worse. And that has been a huge issue with me is trying to regulate my nervous system and get that on board to be more in a parasympathetic sympathetic state.De'Vannon: You know, hearing all of what you've been through and everything like that, you know, perspective is everything, you know, and the thing that I was, and I, when I got H I v I was freaking out about what might happen. You know, there are for worse things that can happen and I'm not downplaying, you know, the seriousness of H I V and the, you know, hepatitis B, which I also have a history of, you know, but, you know, I feel like accidents like yours are, you know, are worse.You know, cancers, hell Covid can kill you in two weeks, you know? Yeah. You know. I'm, I'm thankful that I'm at a point where I have a good attitude about the diseases that I've had to struggle with, [00:51:00] because now I see how bad it really could have been. You know, those diseases never actually did anything to me.It was just my perception and fear of, of death that that really caused me to do self-harm to myself. And so I'm saying all that to say, people watch your perspective because you might actually hurt, you hurt yourself when you didn't have to be hurt. And for other veterans out there trying to fight and battle and box with the VA for your disability, like the woman said, you gotta keep going.It took a, it took time, but I got my, you know, my, my full rating too, that the, the VA is a breeding ground for the most wicked people who have. Never been veterans. And they come and they sit in there and they try to block us from getting our benefits. And it's even worse when you have someone who was a veteran working at the VA doing the same sort of treachery.So you do have to fight and sometimes you need to get like the D A V or the American Legion or an advocate to represent you. And [00:52:00] what I had to do, I live in Louisiana, but the New Orleans VA is so damn corrupt. People here go to other states. I had to go over to the Houston va, now I talk to the Los Angeles, you know, va I, I mean d a v I went to, I went to the Houston Vav and the Los, and I talked to the Los Angeles, d a v.Any d a center can represent you cuz they're all one big organization. It doesn't matter what state you live in. And so if the VA in your town is fucking up and they're full of assholes, go over to another state, you know, and, and the DAV can help you that all out. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I remember I had sent in, I had gone to see, Three new doctors that all documented migraines had injury, because back then in the eighties, they didn't have T b i traumatic brain injury that was not, you know, a known condition that people, you know, doctors were putting down.And when the it came back rejected, not enough evidence. And I was like, did they even read that? [00:53:00] And when I called up there, they admitted that they hadn't read it. There are so many claims coming through. And so that's when I got the advocate here in North Carolina to help me. And he said, we're gonna do this and let's see what happens because you deserve it.And I just wanted the validation that they now have a connection between P T S D and migraines that is clearly established. And if you have P T S D and you have migraines, then you should be getting compensated for both.But anyway, so yeah, I totally agree with you on that. But I had to go through rehab. I had to learn to walk again. I started in a swimming pool. I went home in December. It was a big to-do. They met me at the airport. I had a kidney infection. I didn't want anybody to touch me cause I was so in pain. But, you know, it was a slow slog.And physically, and I will tell [00:54:00] you, it's it's challenging When it happens, you get so much attention and then as you get better, people just fall off. And it's very lonely, you know, because you're still having to pursue the rehab and your friends are in college, they're having a good time, their lives go on, and you just feel like you've been, you know, gypped that and especially when you don't have a memory of what happened, you know, and, and then you're just expected to get on with life.At least that was the expectation In my family, you look physically like you can do things again. So forget about your mind or your spirit. And I think there's something, there's spiritual abuse that goes on, and there's spiritual amnesia and spiritual amnesia is what we all get when we get all these filters put on us as we start growing up.And. [00:55:00] I love it. In my book, I talk about, I did neuro emotional technique for seven years with people including children. And I was with a little girl who was six years old who was coming from a evangelical background who was scared she was going to hell cuz she did something bad. Now she's adopted so that's even worse.So I asked her how she sees God and she eagerly told me God is a blue spirit with colors and balloons in all different colors, no head and can talk. And clearly this little girl is having a direct experience with God, with no filters. And to me, of all the definitions I've heard, I resonate with that the best.You know, there's nowhere where there's energy of God is not. And it just talks to you in a way that you talk to it, it's your own. Relationship, you have to connect to it. It's [00:56:00] a direct experience you have to come into. And I love all the colors because that's what I saw on the other side was the colors.You know, it was just amazing. And she saw 'em as balloons, you know, and it just I was just like amazed. And of course, her parents were like, when I told her there was no hell she looked at her mom, she goes, mom, is that true? There's no, there's no hell with fire in the devil down there. She goes, we'll talk about that later.And I never heard back from her, but, you know, I like to take that. Quote, because children are so innocent and they haven't been subjected to all these indoctrinations and theories and you know, everybody is going to have a different concept of God. But know that from my experience and hundreds of thousands of others, that God is love and we will see our loved ones when we return home.[00:57:00]And you know, I think loving ourselves and others is the most important thing we can do because when you truly love yourself, and I mean love. Unconditional love. All your mistakes, your messes, everything. When you understand that love does not have love is not only a verb and a noun and an emotion, but it's an energy.And when you're around people who have that love energy, you can just feel it, you know? I don't know if that's the way you felt when I was reading your the, the end of your book and your epilogue with the pastor that passed away that was real influential. Sorry, I forgot her name. Evangel Nelson.Yes. If she was like that for you, where she just lit up. You could see the light in her eyes, you could feel it, you know, she was, [00:58:00] and that to me is love. And that they accept you for just for your beingness. And that's what we all need to unwrap ourselves from all these layers and get to that part of us, the being that we were born to be, which is our soul, which is just love and light and beauty and grace, and all these beautiful things.De'Vannon: Let there be light, let there be light. Let there be so much light. Yeah. Nicole: And that's, we we're light workers. That's what you have a light above your head this whole time. And I'm just sitting there. It's like you have a little, little halo kind of, and we are, you know, we are, this is my vocation now. You know, I've had occupations, but my vocation is to help people to try to understand it's time to awaken, to stay, to get out of this unconscious, keep repeating generational things.Start understanding your relationship [00:59:00] with what you call, or whatever the concept of God is, and how does that work in your life, you know, instead of waiting for something terrible to happen and then you start thinking and delving into this. De'Vannon: That is so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so beautiful. And I thank you so much for sharing all that you have.So tell us any, like, last words that you have and And and then I'll go ahead and give everybody your website and everyth. Well, Nicole: first of all, I have to say I love your beard being purple because that purple is royalty and purple is spirituality. Okay? So it's a high vibration which you emanate so that, you know, hopefully our goal is to move our brave vibration upwards, you know?But you know, I guess my main message, you know, it was what Spirit said is not be afraid of death, because if you are, [01:00:00] you're not gonna truly live your life and. This world is so beautiful and I wrote this book because I wanna help other people with their fears about death and to support you through the loss of loved ones.And I hope my book will inspire you to live fully and freely with your heart and your hands wide open. You know? And that's, that was my intention. And it's on Amazon, it's on Barnes and Nobles. You can get it through independent books. It's only what I told somebody the other day, we have these little fairs that come through and one came through Newburn and they were selling those funnel cakes and they were $10.And I said, oh my God, my book is cheaper than the funnel cake. I was like, At 9 99, I was just like, all that work, 13 years to get this book outta me. And a funnel cake, which you eat in what? Five minutes? It was more than that. So it's coming out on Audible [01:01:00] probably in the next month. I just finished my last recording of that the rerecord yesterday.And people, that is not as easy as you think to read your own book. I don't know if you've done that yet with your book. Yeah, I have, but De'Vannon: it is hard. Oh yeah. It, it's because it's like you have to relive everything all over again. Yes. Every time you go through and you don't just read through, you may have to reread each chapter, each section many times to get it right.So you need therapy after you back and read your own book. Nicole: Yeah. And then you hear yourself telling your story, and that's like a, that's a wow. So it was really it was a good thing to go through, but it was a healing, it was another layer in the healing process. And I just want people to know that too, is that healing takes time.Get help if you're stuck. There's lots of resources out there. And to truly, truly come home to who you really are as a soul. [01:02:00]De'Vannon: Alanis Mariette said it like this, let's not equate death with stopping. Nicole: Oh gosh, no, it's, it's just, you're going on. It's like John Lennon said, you just get outta one car and go into the next.De'Vannon: Right, so, so her name is Nicole Kerr. The book is called You Are Deathless. I'll put a link to Amazon and the show notes. The website is nicole kerr.com. That will go in the show notes. She's on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and all of that will go in the showy notes. Is everything. Always does. Thank you so very much for sharing and shining your light upon us and with us today, Nicole and everyone.Just remember that everything is gonna be all right. Nicole: Thank you so much, Devon, and I really appreciate it. You've been a joy to talk to.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really [01:03:00] means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

Nicole joins us today from Canada. She has had an induced Cesarean birth, an induced VBAC, and is now pregnant with her third baby! Nicole shares her journey with IVF before pregnancy as well as what it's like to have a subglottic stenosis during pregnancy. Meagan gives tips about the best types of induction for VBAC. You can be induced and still confidently achieve your VBAC!Additional LinksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello and welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and we have our friend Nicole with you today. She is from Canada and she has a VBAC story which is awesome. One of the things I wanted to talk about today within her VBAC story and her Cesarean story is induction. Induction is a hot topic, especially in the VBAC world. A lot of providers out there will not induce or they'll tell people they can't have a VBAC because of an induction needing to take place or people are scared of induction. I find that a lot of our followers are scared of induction. So at the end, I want to talk a little bit more about induction. Review of the WeekMeagan: We are going to get into our review so cute Nicole can share her stories. Today's review is, let's see if I can get this to pull up. My computer's slow here. It's by Rucca the Silly Frenchie. I love that name. Lucathesillyfrenchie. The title is, “An essential resource if you are VBAC hopeful.” It says, “Writing this review from Columbus, Ohio. I'm a VBAC hopeful with my second daughter due on September 4, 2021.” So Rucca the Silly Frenchie if you are still listening, let us know how things went. It says, “After my first daughter was born via Cesarean due to a footling breech position, I knew TOLAC was in my future. This podcast has been beyond educational and inspiring. Be prepared to be addicted to listening to all of the powerful and unique birth stories from strong women around the country. Regardless of what happens with my upcoming labor, I feel empowered knowing I took a more empowered and educated approach with this pregnancy. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”Thank you, Rucca the Silly Frenchie for your review. I would love to know how everything went. If you guys have not had a chance to leave us a review, please drop us one. We love them and we love reading them on this podcast. You can leave them wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi birth workers, this one's for you. In an ideal world, VBAC parents would be treated just like other birthing parents. In today's world, most medical providers sadly don't fully support VBAC parents. However, 90% of parents with a prior Cesarean are good candidates to attempt a VBAC. This is why we have created the advanced VBAC doula certification program. In this doula course, we share evidence-based data for you to educate your clients, teach you the tools on helping them how to process past fears and trauma or help them decide if VBAC is even right for them. You will feel better prepared to support them during this beautiful experience. All VBAC-certified doulas are listed on our website so parents know who you are. To learn more, go to thevbaclink.com.Nicole's StoriesMeagan: Okay. Nicole, I am so excited. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day. I know that all of you guys here who have recorded your stories are sacrificing time out of your day to be here to share this amazing content for all of these wonderful, hopeful listeners. Nicole: Thank you for having me. I'll jump back to before my Cesarean, but this podcast was such a resource for me in planning for my VBAC so I'm happy to be a part of it in a different way. So thanks for having me.Meagan: Yes, thank you. Nicole: I'll start from the very beginning. My husband and I were high school sweethearts. We got married in 2015 so about a year after we got married we decided, “Okay. We're ready to start trying to have a family.” I stopped taking my birth control pill and literally nothing happened. I wasn't having any cycles or anything like that. So I went to my family doctor. We started inducing cycles and then going from there just on our own. It turns out that notwithstanding the fact that we were inducing a bleed, I wasn't actually ovulating at all. So that's fine. So then we started doing a couple of rounds of letrozole with her just with timed intercourse. We did five rounds of letrosole with that timing with her and then with no luck or success at that point, she referred us out to a fertility clinic where I was diagnosed with classic PCOS and ovulatory PCOS because I don't ovulate on my own. So we did the first IUI with them. Again, no success with letrozole so that's fine. We had another one scheduled. After doing all of that, I had stopped responding to the letrozole at the highest dose so then our only option was either superovulation or IVF and it just worked out timing-wise to do IVF and it made more sense to do that. We ended up going through IVF and because I had PCOS, the numbers that we got in terms of eggs were really, really good. We got 41 eggs which is insane. Meagan: Wow, yeah. Nicole: When it was all said and done, we ended up with 10-day five embryos which was really promising so that was good. We had our first transfer, a frozen transfer, in August 2018. It was successful so we were super excited. I had a really good pregnancy. I never felt sick. Aside from the first-trimester fatigue and exhaustion, I felt really, really good. I loved being pregnant. I was one of those annoying people. I never complained about being pregnant. I felt super good. Even at 41 weeks, I wasn't like, “Oh, get this baby out.” I loved it. It was great. Of course, we did all of the things that you're supposed to do like taking birth classes and all of those other things. I never had a birth plan per se. The birth plan and goal were just a healthy baby and a healthy mom whatever that looks like. Maybe in hindsight, we should have had something more concrete but I'm not sure it would have changed anything. Fast forward, I was 40 weeks plus 10 days, so 41 and a half weeks, maybe a centimeter dilated. Baby was just holding up shop. Meagan: Very comfortable. Nicole: Yeah, too comfortable, arguably. They decided to induce me and I was totally fine with that. They induced me with Cervadil. It was fine. They put in the Cervadil We stayed there at the hospital for about an hour or so. Everything on the monitors looked fine so this one woman said, “Come back when you have contractions for at least an hour lasting a minute,” or whatever the 4-1-1 is.  Meagan: Yeah. Four minutes apart, one minute long, for at least an hour. I want to add in strength because sometimes it can be 4-1-1 and it's not really strong so we go in a little bit early because we are seeing 4-1-1. Add strength in there if you are taking notes for when to go. Add strength. Nicole: Yeah, so when we left the hospital, it was fine. We went out for lunch and just hung around at home. Other things they told us before we left the hospital was if it feels like baby is not moving, if your mother's intuition kicks in, to come back and they'll make sure everything was fine and they'd go from there. It was around suppertime and I started to feel like, “Okay. Maybe baby's not moving as much as she usually does or maybe I'm just being paranoid.” I said, “Let's just go in. Let's double-check just to be safe. I'm not going to get any sleep if I'm worried about her not moving so I'd rather just go in and get it checked.” We went in to get checked a little after supper so in the early evening. That was fine. They hooked us up to the monitors and everything looked okay. I could feel the contractions but I wasn't really in any pain. I wouldn't describe it as being painful yet. Baby looked really good and everything so they said, “Okay. You can go home” because I was still, I think, only a centimeter or maybe 2 being generous. They said, “Yeah, go home,” on the same kind of instructions so that's fine. We went home. A few hours went by at home and now the contractions were quite a bit stronger and quite painful actually. I didn't want to rush off to the hospital again because we had only just been there two or three hours before that but the contractions were very painful and very long. So I had one of those little contraction counters or whatever on your phone and I wasn't sure if I was recording them correctly. I was logging them at two minutes but I was like, “That doesn't sound right. That seems long.” I was like, “I can't imagine spending the night at home with these feelings like this. I need something for my pain.”I actually had my husband call the hospital and say, “Okay. This is what's going on. If we come in, are we able to give her some pain meds and send her back home?” or send me back home if I'm not dilated enough yet to warrant admitting us. They said, “Well, maybe but you were already here for lack of fetal movement so there would be some hesitation about giving you something for it like morphine for example because then you are really probably not going to be feeling the baby. But come in. We will take a look at you and then go from there.” So okay, that's fine. We ended up going back to the hospital maybe around midnight or shortly before then. It was quite late. I could barely walk through these contractions. They were so painful. In the back of my mind, I couldn't imagine it getting any worse but I'd never done this before. Maybe my tolerance for pain isn't as high as I thought it was or would like to think it is so that's fine. We got back to labor and delivery. Right from the moment they hooked me back up onto the monitors in the triage room, you could just tell the vibe and the mood were completely different as soon as they looked at the strip. My contractions were lasting anywhere from 2-3 minutes. More than not as I was having 3, 4, 5 of them in a row without any break in between which was then really hard on baby because there was just no amount of time for baby to recover. So before one contraction would basically fully come down, another one would start. Meagan: Wow. Nicole: They were worried that the Cervadil has essentially hyper-stimulated my uterus. Meagan: Yes, that's what I was going to say. It can do that. Cytotec and Cervadil can hyperstimulate. Nicole: Yep. So the first thing they did was take the Cervadil out. They said, “Okay. We're just going to give you a little bit and see if things go down.” They didn't. Meagan: Yes. But even Cervadil is less likely to stay in your body as long because it is removed so that's a nice thing about Cervadil. Nicole: Yeah. They took it out and it didn't change anything so then they gave me a dose of, I think it's called nitroglycerin. It's a spray. I don't know if it comes in different forms but essentially it was described as what they can use in an attempt to relax the uterus and stop it from contracting. Meagan: They sprayed in your vagina? Nicole: In my mouth. Meagan: I was like, wow. Okay, in your mouth. Okay. Nicole: I think it's also used for cardiac patients because it has the same effect on the heart if someone's heart is having a heart attack or something. Meagan: If it's too high or something. Nicole: Yeah, don't quote me on that. I'm certainly not a medical professional but that was my understanding on that. Anyway, so they gave me something like five doses of that. Again, this is at this point a train that had left the station and nothing was working. Throughout this process, they were having me change positions so I'm being asked to go on my side and my hands and knees. I remember at one point, there was so much commotion and moving parts. I'm still having these super intense and painful contractions that they had asked me to move in some way and I said, “Okay, I just need a minute. I just need to catch my breath. I just need a minute.” The nurse very sternly but kindly looked at me and said, “We don't have a minute. When we ask you to do something, you have to do it. We ask because baby is not doing well.” That's kind of when despite all of the craziness, I clued in. I was like, “Okay. This is obviously maybe more urgent than I appreciate in the circumstance. So it was intense and scary. They decided that even though I was only 2 centimeters just to admit me because what are they going to do, send me home? They put me in a labor room because, until this point, we had just been in a triage room. Things kept going from bad to worse. At some point, it was decided that they would break my waters so that they could put in the little internal monitor to baby's head. They did that. I had a few more doses of nitro. Throughout this whole process, I made it very clear, “I am pro-epidural. As soon as you can give me one, I want one. Give me one right now.”They said, “Okay, we hear you but technically you aren't even 3 centimeters dilated yet so you're not even considered to be in active labor so we can't give you an epidural yet.” I said, “Okay. Just so you know, I want one as soon as you are willing to give it to me.” I'm not sure how much time actually passed after. They broke my water and looked at the monitor until the call was made, “Okay. It's time to get baby out.” But I kind of just remember the OB who was on call coming up to me. He was this big, intimidating man. He had such a gentle and soft voice. He said, “Look. Baby is not doing very well. I think we need to go in and get her. She's not tolerating labor and it's really important that we get her out as soon as we can.” He's like, “Unfortunately, that means we are going to put you to sleep.” I was like, “Okay, that's fine.” As soon as the words left my mouth, it was like, whoosh. A team of people rushed in. Somebody was in my face with a waiver that they were asking me to sign which in the moment, I get. But I was just like, “This is ridiculous.” Someone else was taking off all of my jewelry. My husband was being ushered out of the room. It was madness. We are running down the hall to the operating room which is, in our hospital, literally down the hall. So I'm on the table. They're doing all of their counts or whatever they do. I'm basically awake and the anesthetist is sitting right by my head. He was complaining about how long everything is taking and how I should already be asleep and how we need to get the baby out which was terrifying. I remember he kept saying to me, “Just close your eyes. Just close your eyes.” I had never had surgery before so laying in this chaotic mess with someone telling me to close my eyes was so unsettling. I just remember being so scared to close my eyes because my husband wasn't in the room with me.Meagan: And they never let him in, right?Nicole: They let him in after our daughter was born. Meagan: Being separated, how did that make you feel and being put to sleep?Nicole: It was scary. I obviously wasn't worried about my husband. I didn't think at the moment about how he must have felt. I'm sure it was scary for him too. It just all happened so fast. There was hardly any time to feel anything other than fear because you almost didn't have enough time to process any other emotion. But I just remember laying there. You're strapped to the table naked, having these 10-minute-long contractions. I was almost begging them at this point to put me out because it was so awful. My husband wasn't there so I was so thankful that there was this one nurse. I just remember hearing her voice come from somewhere behind me. I must have had this terrified look on my face because I had this anesthesiologist saying, “Close your eyes. Close your eyes.” She said, “It's okay. You can keep them open. Everything's fine.” It was the only moment of relief or calm that I felt in that entire OR. Everyone was doing their counts. Somebody must have asked where the sponge is for an antiseptic or whatever they use on your belly. The response from across the room was, “Nope. We're just going to dump and cut.” I was like, “Oh.” All of a sudden, you feel this cold splash come across your midsection. Thankfully, they put me out shortly after that so I could stop listening to these conversations that were happening around me. But it was very scary. It turns out that baby was born a couple of minutes later. When it was all said and done, from the time the call was made that they needed to do the section to when she was born was less than 10 minutes. In my mind, it felt like this eternity but it wasn't. It was quite quick. They brought my husband into the OR just as they were walking my daughter over to the warmer. He got to see her right away. She was totally fine. Everything was fine with her which was nice. They heated her. She went up to the nursery while they finished the section and were stitching me back up. I woke up a few hours later and they brought my daughter and my husband over to the recovery to see me after. I had a really good recovery in terms of C-sections. Meagan: That's great. Nicole: Yeah, it was really nice. I don't actually remember being in any pain after the fact either in the hospital or at home but I did struggle in the weeks that followed bonding with the baby which really took me for a loop. We had spent so much time and emotional energy and money trying to have our family and trying to have a baby. Then here's this baby in front of me and it sounds awful to say now to feel almost nothing, to feel indifferent. I didn't have this overwhelming sense of loving joy. I certainly didn't want any harm or anything or have thoughts of harm that way, but the easiest way for me to describe it is that I felt indifferent. It didn't really matter if she was crying to me. I didn't really care if she was there or if I got to hold her or if someone else held her all day. I was indifferent. Meagan: Yeah. I call that a disconnect. You're just not fully connected. It's not that you're not recognizing that she's there or anything, you're just not feeling that full connection that we hear about. Nicole: Yeah. Meagan: But that's also really common when you've had the type of Cesarean that you had or just Cesarean in general too. It happens in vaginal birth too. Nicole: I thought that was the case at the moment. I did think it was because I really didn't have a birthing experience. At one moment, I was pregnant. The next moment as far as I was concerned, I woke up and I'm not without anything really connecting the two. That was kind of the struggle emotionally for those first couple of weeks. It kind of resolved itself around 7 or 8 weeks. It's never been an issue and I'm obviously obsessed with my daughter and I love her. Thinking back on those memories and feelings is hard. Once we got through it, it was good. So that was the birth of our daughter. Shortly after she turned one, we started talking about having another child. We always knew that we wanted more than one. I come from a family of three and my husband comes from a family of four. We always thought that in an ideal world, more than one would be great. We did another frozen transfer in August 2020 which was successful so that was really exciting again. Similar to my previous pregnancy again, I felt really good. I was never sick. I loved being pregnant. Then I found this podcast and I listened to it religiously. I knew that I didn't want to have an elective section. I really wanted a VBAC. That was the goal in terms of if I didn't have a birth plan the first time, the birth plan the second time around was a VBAC. I found a doctor who said that she would deliver our baby. She wasn't delivering babies with our first but she was back delivering them. She said that even if she wasn't on call that day that she would come just for us to do ours which was really nice. She was super supportive and very much like, “If you need to be induced, we can talk about that.” She wasn't insistent that I go into labor on my own or by a certain date or whatever the case was. I felt very much in good hands with her. Meagan: Yeah in not putting those restrictions on ever from the get-go. Nicole: Yes. That was really nice. It was such a weight off of my shoulders from the beginning. But it was the fall of 2020 I guess it was that both personally and many people around me noticed that my breathing was really poor. Part of me just chalked it up to being extremely out of shape. I was a new mom. I wasn't doing as much as I had. But it really hit me when I started noticing that when I would read my daughter her books at her bedtime. You know toddler books. There are five words on every page, but I would have to stop between each page to catch my breath just sitting at rest. Meagan: That's concerning. Nicole: Yeah. So I thought that maybe there was more to this. We went. Through a series of referrals, we ended up at ENT. He said, “This looks like something but I'm not one that can fix it for you,” so he referred us to a further specialist just in the next practice over. I was diagnosed with what's called subglottic stenosis. Meagan: I've never heard of that. Nicole: In the simplest form, it's a narrowing of your airway. It's not scar tissue from my understanding but just normal tissue kind of like an overgrowth of normal tissue that causes this narrowing. It was likely caused by my intubation during my Cesarean. Meagan: During your Cesarean. Nicole: Yep. There was just something about my airway that didn't like being touched and this was the result. The specialist informed me that it was about a third of the size that it should be and that it would be dangerous to attempt to labor without having a surgery to open it back up. Meagan: Wow. Nicole: That was another hard decision but we decided to go ahead and get that surgery while I was pregnant. I got that surgery. It's called a dilation where they open it up with a laser and a balloon and all of this stuff. I had that surgery at 24 weeks and it was amazing how much better I could breathe. I didn't appreciate how bad my breathing was until they fixed it. You don't realize how much of my day and my time I spent just thinking about breathing so that was really nice. Then we were given the green light to TOLAC and try for a VBAC. The rest of the pregnancy was uneventful. I ended up going overdue again. I was 40 weeks and 7 days, I guess 41 weeks. It was decided that at that point, I would be induced because I was only a centimeter dilated. There were no signs of labor. So, fine. This time obviously though, they said, “Under no circumstances can we use Cervadil,” so we decided that I would be induced with a Foley bulb. We went to the hospital. They put in the Foley bulb that morning. They said, “Okay. Come back when it falls out.” It fell out a couple of hours later that afternoon. We went back to the hospital. I should add that during my pregnancy after my dilation surgery, we had an anesthesia consult to make sure, “Okay, what can we do to avoid another intubation?” It was decided, “When you come into the hospital, we'll give you an epidural probably earlier than would usually be offered just in an abundance of caution to try to do everything we can to avoid intubating you.” So that was fine. We got to the hospital. They started me on a low dose of Pitocin. Contractions started to look like they were getting longer again and not really following that nice pattern that they like to see. Our nurse started getting a little nervous and concerned and suggested that we call anesthesia to do the epidural which sure. I'm totally on board with. I was proepidural from the very beginning with the both of them. From my perspective, I didn't need to make my life or job harder than it already was. Anesthesia came in and gave me the epidural. It was great. I felt nothing. Then the contractions actually fell into a really nice pattern after so no one was worried. We hung out for two or three hours at the hospital again contracting. I had no idea. I never felt anything. At one point, I said to my husband, “It feels like I peed a little bit.” He was like, “You have a catheter in.” I was like, “Yeah, but I feel wet.” It turns out that my water broke on its own which was nice but I didn't have any urge to push or anything like that. They said, “We'll let you just hang out for a couple of ours. Just let us know if you feel that urge.” That urge never came so they said, “Let's start pushing anyways because it's been a little bit since your water broke.” I said, “Okay.” We pushed for about an hour and a half and then at that point again, baby started having some decels and it looked like baby was starting to not tolerate labor that well. Slowly, the vibe became a little more tense. The message started to be, “Okay. It's time to get this baby out. We have to push this baby out sooner than later.” At some point, the call was made to use the vacuum to help that happen sooner. That was all explained to us and we said, “Okay, sure.” The vacuum was used and then the baby came out two pushes later. When my son was born, I didn't get to hold him right away. He wasn't crying. They took him over to the warmer right away. He had no tone. His body was completely limp. He wasn't crying. He was breathing, but only barely and had the flared nostrils and all of those telltale signs that he was working really, really hard. Meagan: The traction and all of that. Nicole: Yeah, so they had him on the bag and worked on him for about 15 minutes. In that time, he never cried. He never perked up so it was decided that he needed to go off to the NICU to get some extra attention there. My husband went with him to the NICU. I stayed behind. I ended up having a third-degree tear that required some attention. They took me up to the NICU once I was all ready to go a couple of hours later. It turns out that he had a severe meconium aspiration so he actually ended up spending four days on a ventilator and was in the NICU for nine days. Meagan: Was there any sign of meconium when your water broke?Nicole: Not when my water broke. Before, I think right before the call was made to use the vacuum, I do remember our doctor saying, “It looks like there is a lot of mec in there,” but there was no mention of it when my water broke. Meagan: So maybe during labor. Nicole: So I'm assuming it was sometime after that but during the labor that it happened. That was a scary experience, but he's totally fine now. He's a happy, strong, healthy boy. We just call him as being built to last because nothing phases him. But my VBAC wasn't necessarily what I had envisioned but ultimately it was really successful and a better emotional experience which is weird to describe because there are a lot of emotions around having a child in the NICU. I didn't have any issues bonding with him. I felt that connection to care for him right away. If anything, if nothing else, I'm hoping that having that VBAC, it will help what will hopefully be my next VBAC better. I'm actually currently expecting. Meagan: Awesome! Congratulations!Nicole: Yep, so we're hoping that the third time is the charm. Yes, so I'm just shy of 31 weeks. We are due April 1st. Meagan: Really soon! Actually, right when this episode airs you will have a baby. Nicole: This kid is probably going to be late too. Meagan: You'll either have a baby or just about having a baby. Oh, so fun. Nicole: Or will be preparing for one. My husband and I always joke that getting the babies in and getting them out usually takes quite a bit of work, but baking them is where I thrive. Meagan: Yeah. Nicole: The plan again, even with everything that happened with my son, the recovery was quite difficult with a third-degree tear, but we're going for another VBAC. We're hoping like I said, if anything, my son will help pave the way for hopefully a smoother, less eventful experience. Meagan: Absolutely. Your chances are higher of that. Sometimes that first vaginal birth, even if there is no previous Cesarean, can be a little longer or have things like forceps and vacuum and things like that. It can happen. So hopefully like you said, it will pave the way and be a beautiful redemption. They all have been great but a redemption birth of the two with less drama maybe. Nicole: Less drama. Less excitement. I just want a nice, run-of-the-mill birth. But yes so it will be good. I'm glad that I experienced it. I wouldn't change it. Meagan: Yeah. You are still happy with the outcomes. Nicole: Yeah. I'm still happy we had the VBAC. Everyone is happy and ultimately, that has always been our thing. Healthy baby, healthy mom. Whatever that looks like, we can deal with but hopefully it looks like a VBAC. Meagan: You'll have to let us know. Definitely let us know. Nicole: Yeah, I will for sure. Meagan: That's awesome. I want to talk a little bit about induction. I've been taking notes along the way just about things that you've said. Right before I get into induction, something that you had said during your first, something that they said to you is that they were just going to dump and cut. You heard that and then you were gone. Those longlasting words, I think it is so important to note to everybody listening especially if you are a provider, that words matter. Words matter. Even though you may not be thinking that something that you say that your patient is going to hold onto, it's possible that they will. I don't think that you held onto dump and cut, but I heard that and that is a very scary thing. “We're just going to dump and cut.” I just want to remind everybody to please be mindful of your words when you are with someone especially in a vulnerable state. But induction. I want to talk about induction. I just want to talk about what ACOG says and going over 40 weeks and stuff like that. Because Nicole is proof that induction can happen and VBAC can happen. An induction can happen and a VBAC can happen with no complications. Sometimes it can't and we don't know why. We can't always blame induction at all, but I don't want you to be scared of induction. I don't want you to be so terrified of induction that it consumes you because I know that some of our listeners are in that space especially because they had an induction that spiraled down and went Cesarean. I want to talk about how ACOG concludes that, “Induction of labor between 41 and 7 and 42 and 7 can be considered. 42 weeks to 42 weeks and 7 days is recommended given evidence of increased morbidity and mortality.” Something has changed over time and that is the ARRIVE trial. We have a blog about the ARRIVE trial and we have a blog about induction. We have a blog about going over 40 weeks. Since this has happened, we see a lot more people at 40 weeks and if they haven't had a baby yet, providers are rushing to get babies out. I just want to let you know that doesn't have to happen, but if you choose to induce, that's okay too. Just like Nicole said in the beginning of her induction story, no she didn't qualify for Cytotec or Cervadil because she is a TOLAC, but she had a great induction with a Foley catheter or a Cook catheter. Depending on where you are at, everyone calls it something different. Those are really great alternatives. You do have to be dilated a little. Sometimes they can give Pitocin a little bit and then give a Foley. But talk with your providers. I encourage you to talk with your providers. I feel like her provider really said, “Okay. Here's what we should do and this is why.” It worked out in Nicole's benefit. I want everyone to know that induction doesn't have to be scary. Right, Nicole?Nicole: I don't think the spiraling with our son had anything to do with the induction. Meagan: It just happened. Sometimes we have babies that have a fast transition or during pushing and meconium is really common too. So yeah. I know people who go into spontaneous labor and have meconium and I know people with meconium aspiration with induction. It just happens. I felt like there are lots of people on here who are living proof that induction is possible but Nicole just said it right here. She's been induced and she had two very different circumstances with induction. Take it slow. Speak with your providers. Go over all of your options and remember that words matter.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Bosses, it's callback time! After a set of fiercely talented auditions last week, Anne & Lau narrowed it down to the 5 talents they felt had something special. Manny, Aria, Josh, Nicole, and Kelly are back and ready to read. After being thrown custom directions from your hosts, these voice actors rose to the occasion, making the final decision a difficult one. Although there can only be one winner, every experience in front of an agent, producer, and casting director is valuable. You never know what kind of impression you'll leave on them, so give it your all. The final decision came down to matching Anne & Lau's preferences with the client's needs, but you'll have to tune in to find out who that is… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Welcome everyone to the VO BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to bring my special guest co-host Lau Lapides to the program. Hey Lau. Lau: Hey Anne. Glad to be here. Anne: Lau, we had an amazing live audition podcast. I am so excited for how that turned out. Lau: Oh my gosh, I can't wait to see it. And oh, what a, what a great time that was. Yeah, great group. Anne: And, and our appreciation, you guys, BOSSes out there, if you've not heard it, go, make sure that you check it out. It was our first ever live audition podcast where we had, uh, gosh, 12 people live auditioning for, uh, a particular for Expedia and, uh, with feedback and everything. And today, this episode is all about the live audition callback. So we had five people calling back, and we are going to have them come back for another round of reads, and Lau and I will pick the winner. So get ready, BOSSes. And so without further ado, hopefully people are there in the audience, uh, in the chat. Um, we have the roster, which will be Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, uh, and Kelly White. Okay. So if you guys are ready, the first one up to audition for us again is Nicole. And Nicole, we are asking you to do the same script, which is the script for Expedia, starting with, uh, our colors. And, uh, we would like you to give us your unique second take. Lau, any particular hints, casting directions, specs? Lau: Uh, I would love to see the most coziest warmest, most relaxed read you can do, Nicole. Nicole: Coziest. Warmest, most relaxed. Okay. All right. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Very nice. Lau: All right. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: Yeah. I'm gonna offer one little bit of redirection. Um, can I hear the end? Um, give me a little more, I, I'm gonna say a little more punch on in even more places, in more places. Um, and, and I really wanna hear finding the colors, come, bring that home to me. Um, a little bit of a, of a smile. More of a smile at the end, 'cause you got a great deal. Nicole: Yeah. Okay. And so still warm and fuzzy but just kind of a little bit more emphasis on the colors and even more places kind of line? Anne: Yeah. And you can just pick it up at so we can go find our colors. So you don't need to do the whole thing. Yeah. Nicole: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. All right. Lau: Super nice. Nicely done. Thank you, Nicole. Nicole: Thanks. Lau: Love it. Anne: Now, in a real audition, Lau, how -- now in terms of if people are late or they're not connecting or, you know, there's -- I'm sure there's a grace period, I mean, everybody's human. So if there are tech issues or if somebody didn't hear that they're being called back at the precise time, how much time typically would you say casting directors will wait? Lau: Um, you know, I don't know. It's not like -- I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I think it depends on the relationship they have with whoever's sending them in, whoever's submitting them, and if they know the talent themselves. The rule of thumb, generally speaking, is like, the less they know you and then, and the less rapport they have, the less they're gonna have patience for you and the less they're gonna wait. But here's the interesting thing, and I, I wanna share this with the folks in the background, 'cause again, they're not seeing any of the tech stuff that's going on. I just received a text right now from Aria who said, hey, could you please give me a second? I need to reset it and reboot. I would say in general, people don't like waiting, so they'll skip to the next person. And you know, as a courtesy, they will come back to you most of the time because they wanna find a good person. They don't wanna -- Anne: And that's, and that's fine. And I will look, I'll make the call here if Manny is available. Uh, you know, if Aria can't get back, Okay. Um, we can certainly take Manny and wait, you know, for later to, to get Aria on, which is fine with me. Lau: That's how, that's how it would be because if we were in a paid studio space by the hour. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Lau: We don't wait, wait for anyone. We just go on to the next person. Anne: Right. Uh, because yeah, this studio's expensive, darn it. . Lau: And you know, as, as we're, as we're saying this, the talent is emailing me because I have a direct rapport with the talent and she's saying, could you please have someone else go while I'm doing the tech setup? Anne: There you go. Lau: So I don't hold you up? See, that's exactly pro stuff. Anne: Perfect. All right, Manny, welcome back. So we're looking for your unique second read. Manny: My unique second read. Anne: You were super warm the first time. Manny: Okay. Anne: So let's, uh, let's hear something different. Manny: Okay. Let's do something fun. Anne: Okay. Manny: here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Lau, any redirection there? Lau: I have a quick redirect just because I, I'm getting to know Manny and loving your sound. Now I would love to hear you deliver this as a standup comedian. . Manny: Standup comedian. All right, that sounds good. That's fun. Here we go. Our colors have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you could save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. . Anne: Nicely done. Lau: So good. Anne: Yeah, Lau: So good. Anne: Nicely done for, for doing that without a real joke in the script. So that was good. You channeled. And what I liked about that is that you channeled, uh, the comedic into the read even though there was nothing comedic necessarily in the script. So yeah, nicely done. Thank you. Manny: Mom, I'm an artist. I'm doing artist stuff, Mom, come on. . Anne: See? There you go. Manny: Killing me. Thanks, ladies. Anne: Thank you, Manny. Anne: And, and even that little like, improv bit at the end there, nicely done. Lau: So good, so good. Anne: That's a way to leave a nice, uh, remembrance, you know, in my brain. So love that. Lau: Anne, could I make a quick point that I meant to say before, but I didn't say before? Um, I wanted to make the point to everyone who's coming in, but also anyone who's listening in that even though this is a mock audition under educational umbrella, you are actually auditioning every single time you're in front of an agent, a producer, casting, or even coaches. And it's because we're all so connected to work all the time. So case in point, I'm already thinking of work for Manny right now. I'm already thinking of potential representation for him right now because it doesn't matter that it's a, a podcast or a class or a course or a coaching. What matters is we're actually having the real connection and the real stuff. So never like mark through like a dancer might mark -- do it full out 'cause whoever you're with, may be the next person to help you work. Anne: You've planted the seed, right? Lau: Yes. Yeah. Anne: You've planted the seed, so, excellent. Yes. Aria, so wonderful to have you here. We are ready for you. Now we, so I know last time we had thrown that wrench in the, in the loop there for you. Aria: Hey, that's okay. Anne: A completely new script. Aria: Yeah. I enjoy that. Anne: And so and so now because you, you know, were really a cold read there -- Aria: Yeah. Anne: Let's give us the most to spec read, warm, non-announcery, not deliver -- uh, you know, nothing, nothing performy, and tell us that story. Lau, any additional direction? Lau: Um, yes. I would like you to do two things at once. I'd like you to care immensely about what you're talking about. And I also want you to not give a shit about it at all. . There you go. Aria: . Oh, you sort of a birch tree. Anne: That's exactly what I was looking for too, Lau, perfect. Aria: I love that. I love that. That's like my whole thing, right? I care so deeply, but I also don't care at all. Okay. Our colors. See, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% adding a hotel or flight, so we can find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Bravo. Nicely done. Uh, way to take direction. I heard both care and not care in there at the same time. Aria: I'm good at that. Anne: Really nicely done now. Aria: Thank you. Anne: . That was the, Okay, so now that you can care and not care, uh, let's just give us uh, something completely different. A wild take from you. One more. Yeah, I got you. A wild take from you. Aria: Okay. Lau: I loved it. And also one more thing, be very careful of, I know you're not in a soundproof space right now. Be very careful of excess noise 'cause you actually clapped at the end. You did something to make noise. So just be careful of, you know, hitting something or any excess noise. Aria: Be careful of using your body, hitting something, excess noise. Got you. Echo. Our colors. They have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with the Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% adding a hotel and a flight, and even more places, you know, knowing you got a great deal. Expedia, ah, made to travel. Anne: Perfect. Let's hear that again. You missed a line. Aria: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's hear that again. Aria: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing that we have a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Lau? Lau: Yeah. I wanna make a comment about this. And again, it's like that oxymoron kind of thing. On one hand I love that choice and I loved how you, how quickly you did it. You didn't care. You just, you just, it was that improv in you. You just did it. You went 100% and I loved that. And actually you had a sort of European amorphous kind of non-real, real thing going on, which I like. Aria: Yeah. Lau: But just from an educational perspective for everyone, you wouldn't be able to do it for the most part, right? Because we are so much about particular appropriation that that authentic sound would be from somewhere and we would have to do the casting. Aria: And that's so funny that you say that 'cause I was actually originally gonna do like a Valley girl. 'Cause I was like, I feel like that would be a little bit more appropriate, at least for my age group than. Lau: No, but I think your choice was really right on in terms of the actor spirit. Anne: I think so too, in terms of making it more international. Lau: It was cool. Anne: And especially for the subject, but you're absolutely right, Lau. That's one thing that I was going to say, that maybe, you know unless you knew specifically that there was something in the specs that they were looking, and that it wasn't critical that it was, you know, from a, you know, a native speaker. Um, but I like the actor party knew that that gave that the shot for sure. Aria: Yeah. 'Cause you guys are so right, like, especially these days, like they want the authentic thing. Like I've -- even in acting, they're like, if you aren't this specific thing, I'm sorry, you can't play the role. And I'm like, it's okay, it's okay. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: So that, so I loved it, but I wouldn't be able to cast it. Right. Just like, you know. Aria: I just got that noted. Yeah. I appreciate it. All right. Awesome, guys, thank you. Lau: Thank you. Anne: Thank you. All right. That was fun. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Josh. Hi Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going? Anne: Fantastic. Thank you. Josh: Cool. Anne: Um, Lau, any, uh, direction that you wanna give before he reads? Lau: Yeah, sure. Sure. Josh, I love what you're doing. Just give me a little bit more professor that is mixed with surfboard. So let's say he's like a, a UC, you know, LA professor that goes surfing during his lunch break. Josh: Sure. Dig it. Okay. Cool. All right. Uh, Josh Wells. Lau: I think you're a little low too. Is that me? Josh: Am I little low? Lau: I feel like your volume -- Josh: Well, I'm, I'm away from the mic, but how about here? Is this better? Lau: That's better. Josh: Okay, cool. Cool. All right. Excellent. Uh, Josh Wells, non-union. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Lau: So I, I I mean, I felt like you're moving there, you're not there yet. You're sort of holding on. There's a held feeling to it. Like, I would want you to let it go. Let it go. Let it move forward. Ride the wave. Ride the wave. And be careful of the pausing too much. It has an unnatural feel to it. Josh: Dig it. Lau: So, you know what I'm saying? Anne: Yeah. I was gonna say, I, I missed the surfer, kind of channeling of the surfer. I wanted to, I felt like I needed a little more, more relaxed. Um, and then also I, I, I just, I have a personal issue with the word a because in a conversation it's usually you're adding a hotel and not A hotel. But that's, you know, that's just my ears here. Josh: Um, I've got the note before, I'll -- Anne: Yeah. So yeah, if you can give me a little more of the relaxed, you know, kind of like mm, you know, the half smile. Um, I'd like to hear that again. Josh: Okay. You got it. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I liked your ending. I like the different end on the tag there. Josh: Thank you. I appreciate it. Lau: Thanks Josh. You have a great cat that ate the canary sound. You had that really sort of wise cracking wise guy sound, which I really like a lot. I'd wanna play with that even more. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And I would say, I would say for the, I still, you know, I'm in California, so it's the surfer, you know, I guess it's that me, I felt like you were almost leaning towards a little more like, uh, you know, Midwest sort of, Sam Elliott kind of relaxed. So work on the surfer. I think you've got it in you, for sure. Josh: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that note. Anne: Yeah. Nice. I, I really like your tone. Thank you. Josh: Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Anne: Okay. Kelly White. Kelly: Hello, hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Lau: Hey Kelly. Kelly: Hey, how are you? Anne: Nice to see you back. Kelly: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Anne: Awesome. So, uh, Lau, do you have any, any specific direction you'd like? Lau: Yeah, so Kelly, keep in mind that we're going for a slightly younger demographic. So as we love the richness and texture and heaviness of your sound, we really feel like you might be able to go in that direction of the 30s to even early 40s sound of like something that is the fast moving person, multitasking person, young, professional person raising young children. I know you know nothing about that. I'm joking 'cause I know Kelly well. Kelly has small, young children, so target that on a busy day. Kelly: Okay. Anne: But remember that your colors, I, I wanna feel the, I wanna feel the colors, uh, being, bringing you home. Kelly: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of binding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Lau: Can I ask a question? If this is a busy mom, a young busy mom, what does colors mean to you? To her? What does that actually mean literally? Kelly: Um, just different aspects of probably her life. Just different things that she's doing, different things she has going on. Lau: Yeah. And the idea that she also wants to escape from it. Kelly: Gotcha. Anne: And find. Lau: And the colors of the ocean. The colors of the mountains, the greenery, the islands, the -- Anne: And find herself in more places than just her home. Kelly: Got it. That's right. Lau: Explore her, her inner world. Right? Her fantasy. Welcome to Fantasy Is -- give me more Fantasy Island, I think. Kelly: Got it. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Nice. I'd like to have -- I really like the way you slowed that down and, and emphasize the colors and you brought that home. Um, and I think knowing we've got a great -- knowing we got a great deal. I'd like to hear just that last part again so we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. That's like your, that's like your mom, like that's your mom's secret. Like you just got a deal, you just had a coupon, and you know what, you're excited about it. And so you're sharing that with us. Okay? And, uh, let's just, just hear that one more, one more time please. Kelly: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Nice. Can I ask for one more? Can I ask for an alternate on just, just the, so we can find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal -- can I get an ABC read of that? That would be three different ways. Kelly: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Anne: Thank you, Kelly. Kelly: You're welcome. Thank you so much. Anne: Nicely done. Kelly: Thank you. Lau: Thank you hun. Appreciate it. Kelly: All right. Lau: All right. That's everyone. Yeah? Anne: That is everyone. Wow. You guys all did an amazing job. This is gonna be tough. Lau: Actually, I think it's gonna be easier than we think only because we kind of get and know what that client wants. And that's gonna help us deduce down who we need to be picking along who we want to be picking. So what, what, what are your top thoughts on top, top people? Who are your top, top two? Anne: Uh, my top people I am going to say, uh, is going to be Manny, Aria and Kelly . Lau: Okay. And my top people are Manny and Nicole. Okay. So we've got Manny in common there, which is a strong choice. And, and what's even stronger about Manny is, and it's genderless. Like they don't care what gender, that's fine. But they want diversity talent. And Manny is, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Manny, I believe Latina and is bilingual and so can offer a Spanish read of this. So there's a, there's a super compelling reason why he may book this. Anne: And, and, and let's also talk about, you know, as we, as we mentioned before with our feedback, the fact that he was able to, uh, you know, take good direction, that's so, so very important, right, change up his read, which he did, uh, when asked. Also when leaving, when we asked him for the comedic read and I said, nice job, even though there's no comedic in there, he was actually able to leave us without sounding like too, like, you know, trying too desperate or trying to impress us. He did a line that was comedic that impressed me. And so I really liked the nuance of that and for me, that stood out and made him very memorable. Lau: Yeah. I mean, when he did that last mom thing, and I was like, wow, this guy is like really ready. He is ready Freddy. He is, There's no fooling around with Manny. Like, he's a super pro. And again, I'm saying this like, I don't know Manny at all. He was referred over to me last night for, uh, a VO Spanish audition that we got in from Miami. Unfortunately, he did not make that call because it was a time sensitive. So I said, and this happens all the time, I said, hey, I would love for you to come on our podcast. We're doing mock auditions today. He came on today in good spirit that he missed the actual audition, but not, not any fault of his. He just didn't, you know, he came in late and then came in today, and now I'm thinking, how can I work with Manny? Anne: Sure, sure. Absolutely. Lau: See, that's the way life is. So, Okay. So he's my top choice then. Anne: Yeah. He's my top choice too. And, and I'm gonna say, you know, my other picks, you know, again, I had for demographic, uh, you know, Aria, I love the voice, I love the demographic. I think that she's, she's, uh, great with that. She did give a complete different read um, you know, on either one. I liked her acting instincts there. Um, and so again, that sometimes, guys, it, it, it can turn out to be like just these tiny little things that can separate, you know, who we decide and not. And Kelly I liked because we asked her to do a lot there at the end too, and she came through with her three different reads, which I liked, uh, a whole lot. Uh, in terms of demographic too, I thought that she was appropriate. Um, I wanted, I wanted a little younger sound though that. Lau: I did too. Wonderful. I felt -- that felt just a little square, a little boxy for me. Like I, it had, again, she's got a good corporate feel. She's got a good businessy feel. Um, I wanted a-- I wanted more, it was a very staccato type of reads. I wanted more flowy-ness to it. I wanted more, more hangout energy. And also Aria was terrific, no question. I felt she's got age and room to grow. I thought she was a little too young for this one somehow. Anne: Okay. No, I would totally agree with you on that. Lau: But again, we're splitting hairs, you know? We're like going, okay, we're looking at union and non-union status, we're looking at diversity, we're looking at age, we're looking at all these different factors that separate people when really all of these people could be booked on this. Anne: Yeah. And just, you know, other words, you know, like for Nicole, Nicole really has that warm read down. I'll tell you. She really does. You know, I don't wanna leave this without feedback for all of, all of you. Um, because Nicole, you have that, that warm read. And that's something I think when you've got it, you know, go for it. When there are auditions that call for that warmth, go for them, because that seems to be a signature style for you. And then I'll, I'll say a little bit about let's see, who else was it that -- Josh. Right? Lau: And can I just say about Nicole before you leave that? See, okay. Again, listeners, you don't know what's in our head and how it's shifting so fast. Nicole was actually my first pick for this. But the, but the age, the diversity, diversity factor came in and this factor and that. See, and it shifted the game. It has nothing to do with, can Nicole do this job? Is she great and right for it? Of course she is. But there were other factors. Anne: I think everyone, every one of you could have done this job, No question. Um, and now we just talk about different factors in terms of demographic. So keep that in mind, guys, when you, when you let things get you down and you think that, oh, they didn't pick me, um, it has a lot to do with things other than just your voice or your performance. And also it could be like, well, I've worked with, uh, you know, I've worked with Manny before, and I just know he's gonna come through and give us whatever we want. Or, you know, I've worked with Nicole before, and you know, or my cousin knows Nicole and, and, and really recommends her or whatever it is, guys, don't let the fact that you don't get the gig, you know, you know, gets you down because there's so many things, so many, many factors here. Um, and like I say, all five of you I think could have done this job well. And what has shifted us, I think, is again, going back to what the, what the client wants, what we think is best for the brand. And always guys, I think if you can, can look up the brand. At this point, you've had some time with the script. Um, if you don't know the brand, go look at the brand. Look them up, Google's your friend, uh, find out who they're, who are they marketing to, What does their brand look like on the web? And try to really learn as much as you can about that brand because you're speaking on behalf of the brand. Not only are you telling the story of the script, but you're also speaking on behalf of the brand. So knowing -- the more you know, right, the more you know, uh, I think the more educated you are, the better, the better you're going to be. And sometimes, you know, it just, it comes down to, you know, splitting hairs like Lau said before. Lau: Yeah. And if you, even if you go, like, I just used this example the other day. Even if you go into like an Apple store and you're looking for a new Mac, and you go on the Mac, and you sort of test it out, you're going, okay, what's the capability of all this, all these programs? What is the this, what is the that? What does it look like? Is it easy to use? Do I like this pro -- da da da? What am I willing to pay for it? It's not that the Mac itself is not something that you could buy and love and enjoy and could work well. It's just the difference between this $1000 Mac and this $2,000 Mac, and what are the differences? So don't discount yourself or devalue yourself like, they don't like me, I'm not good enough. Whatever. No, you just may not have a quality or a program, if you will, that someone else has that we need for the job. Anne: And, and as we mentioned before, you know, there's a lot of, you know, can you sound younger? Right? That kind of thing. Like people, there's no way it, you know -- I may have a younger sounding voice given my age, but there's no way I'm going to sound millennial. Um, you know what I mean? And so like sometimes it's beyond your control also. Um, if they're looking for a gravitas, if they're looking for a texture and you don't -- I have a very clear voice. Right? If they want something that has more texture in it or rasp in it, that wouldn't be me. Um, but just knowing that can help you to just continue, I think always maintaining -- you know, be the best actor you can be because the things that you can control sometimes, like your voice, like the tone and the texture, and you know, there's lots of things you can do with vocal placement, with characters, but when it comes to this type of a read, where we're looking for authenticity, you know, it's, it's, we don't need you to go into character mode necessarily. Um, but we need authenticity. And that, that is, I think the, the, the thing that you can really concentrate on and practice and get better at as an actor. I think that's so important. Lau: And know knowing that, that self knowing of, of who you are and your brand, what your best qualities are, what your niche is, what is your niche market -- that honesty, that truthfulness will only set you free over time because it will free up a lot of your time so that you're not focusing on jobs that you're simply not gonna get because they can get the authentic read when that, you may not fall into that category. Just focus in those areas that are really your strong suits. Anne: Absolutely. Well then I think we've declared our winner, Lau. Lau: Woo. Anne: So congratulations to Manny. Lau: Yay, Manny. Anne: Um, you are our, you are our voice for Expedia. So congratulations, and thanks to all of you that came in and auditioned in our first podcast. Thanks to you guys who came back for the callbacks. I hope that you've gotten some value out of these, uh, two podcasts, and, uh, we hope to keep them coming your way. I think this could wrap up our episode. Lau: I love it. I mean, I love it. I mean, look at this, in less -- in just about two hours, little over two hours, we went through all the tech glitches, all the directions, all the preliminaries of auditions, the breakdown into the short list, then all the way up to the person who's gonna book the role. Anne: And you heard our brains, you heard us thinking and speaking out loud and casting. And so hopefully you all have a better understanding of what it takes to get cast and what's behind the casting, the casting glass. And, uh, yeah, you guys were all amazing. I really, really appreciate it. So with that being said, guys, I'm gonna give a big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipDTL.com. Lau, you're amazing. BOSSes out there, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Have a -- an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Lau: Kudos to everyone. Thanks so much. Have a great weekend. Bye. Anne: Bye. Congrats. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Get in the hot seat! Anne & Lau put on their casting director hats as they host live auditions with members of the BOSS community. There is something magical about a live audition…especially when the casting directors switch up the script at the last minute. These auditionees were on their toes, reading cold & nailing it. Anne & Lau share their favorite tips for before the audition & reflect on all that went right (and wrong). Stay tuned to hear who got a callback + will be featured in next week's episode. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Woohoo!. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Vo BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with my very special guest co-host Lau Lapides. Woohoo. Lau: Hey everyone. Anne: Hey Lau. Lau: Happy Saturday. Anne: Lau, we have a extra special podcast edition today. We are doing live auditions for the very first time, and I am so excited. Lau: I love it. I love it. It's my specialty. I can't wait, Anne, can't wait. Anne: And we are going to be having people come on doing live auditions as well as people in the audience and will be joining us later on for a Q and A. So I am so very excited. Now, live auditions. Remember back when before the pandemic, when we would go into studios and audition for direct -- casting directors? Ugh. Lau: And that required us to actually see other human beings and talk to them and maybe even shake their hand? Anne: I know. And you know what? And you know what? One of the most important things about that is, is that we would not see the script until we walked into that studio. And there was always the possibility when we actually got into the room, they would change the script on us. Lau: Yes. Anne: So guess what, Lau? Lau: What, Anne? Anne: The client has changed the script. Lau: Ooh. Anne: So for our auditioners out there, and everybody in the audience, I'm sorry, but we had to throw the wrench into the, the loop of things. And we now have a different script that we will be sending to you to live audition with. So I know that Carol is out there waiting to send that new script out with new specs, and we will continue on with the auditions. And I have to say, I just love, I love the Internet and I love technology because it allows us to really do something really cool like this. Lau: Yeah. It's totally amazing. Completely amazing. And you know, just a moment on that real cold impromptu, last minute script, because I know so many voice actors are like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Meanwhile, you have to calm down and take a breath because so many of us are either on a pay-to-play site, or we're on hold with our agent, or we're working with casting on a project, and it's happening fast. It's coming and going really fast, and you guys are really getting used to turning things around fast. So the idea of a cold script should not put you out at all. It should be kind of like a fun challenge for you and really in your wheelhouse as a pro VO of something that really you need to be able to do. Anne: Yeah. And I can't tell you the countless number of times I've been on a live session where, you know, in the moment they're changing the script. And so you really have to be able to have those muscles to be able to quickly adapt and give the client what they're looking for. So I will say that this was a, a kind of a, a completely different script , but you know, remember we are here for educational purposes, and we hope all of you are going to really enjoy and reap the benefits of this exercise that we're going to be doing. I will go through the specs. Because this is for educational purposes, the specs for this script, uh, are open to all genders and ethnicities. And I will read the specs out loud here. Our FVO is a great actor, there we go, who can effortlessly imbue meaning and nuance into the story. They have lived a rich full life, having seen the world with all its wonders and is able to speak about their experiences with confidence and authority while their delivery has a poetic cadence . And by the way, you guys are all getting this. Um, this is done subtly and with a light touch. They never come across as dramatic, performative or as if they are laying on the gravitas. They are natural and have an air of lightness to the read that balances out their connection to the emotion perfectly. And as always, nothing smooth, nothing polished or announcery at all. . So we've got, that's a big paragraph of specs, Lau. What do you, what's your thought about specifications and when talent, you know, read the specs? Are they, you know, are they trying to match those specs exactly? Or what's important, uh, when it comes time to actually doing this audition? Lau: Great question. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of theories and philosophies about your descriptions, your breakdowns, and how to handle them. One of my favorites as a coach that I use all the time is to ask the talent to not read the specs up front. Now, this -- I'm not talking about today, because today's session is a live session, and so time is of the essence. But if you were at home and you had a day or two days to turn around an audition, it's a really interesting and telling exercise to not read the specs at all and give your takes and give a whole bunch of takes. And then go back and read the specs and see what did I bring from my point of view, from my interpretation and what kind of matches what the vision of the producer is? Am I in that realm? Am I not in that realm? Anne: Excellent points. Yeah. Let's have Michelle come on in. Hey, Michelle. Lau: Hey Michelle. Michelle: Hi. Can you guys hear me okay? Anne: We can, we can. Thank you for being the first one. I'm excited. Michelle: Oh my goodness. Okay. I just I'm excited to be here as well. Anne: Okay. So would you like a second, because you just got it? I mean, Lau and I can just discuss one other thing quickly about once you're in front of the mic and you're doing a live cold read, Lau, what is your best advice? Oh, for talent? Lau: Oh, wow. That's, that's a great question. First of all, have fun. Enjoy it. You're gonna get very few of those, right, Michelle? I mean, it's just like an exciting, energized, kind of dopamine experience. And for those of us who live on high octane junkies, we love that stuff. It's real time interaction, which I love. And so I would say make sure you're breathing. Make sure you're nice and warmed up, and you take breaks when you need to take breaks. Well, you'd be given a break after you read -- and make specific clear, active acting choices, Michelle, like, don't, don't, uh, generalize it. Don't just fly through it for the sake of time. Really make specific choices that you can change. And you should always have a good two to three really unique interpretations that you could do if they said, yeah, that's good, but can you change it out? You can change it out. Michelle: Got it. Thank you. Lau: Awesome. Anne: So when you're ready, feel free to slate and audition please. Michelle: Michelle Dillard. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you very much. Michelle: Thank you. Anne: Okay. Onto our next auditioner. Uh, on my list. I have Ryan, I hope it's Geiser. Lau: Hello. Anne: Hello, Ryan. Ryan: Oh, cool. I'm in. Lau: Hey Ryan. Ryan: Hi. Lau: Welcome. Ryan: Thank you. Uh, so I'm Ryan Geiser, non-union, MCVO. Um, our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I was, uh, taking notes, just so you know that if I'm not responding right away, I'm taking notes. So thank you very much. Our next contestant , our next auditioner, I have, uh, Rosie, uh, Roberson? Lau: Yes. Anne: All right. Rosie. Rosie: Hello, everyone. Anne: Hello, Rosie. Nice to see you. Rosie: Well, I'm glad I got in . It's a little tricky there. Just let me know when to start. Anne: Okay. Well, we're ready. Rosie: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with Expedia membership, you, you can save up at 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Awesome. Thank you very much. Okay. Our next, I have Manny Cabo. Manny: Hey ladies, how are you? Anne: Welcome. Manny: Welcome. Anne: Thanks for, thanks for joining us. Manny: Oh, thanks for having me. This was a last minute thing. I was, I just got off Covid for like two weeks, so believe me, this is a breath of fresh air. Anne: Oh, lovely. Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. Manny: Yeah, me too. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Manny: All right, let's do this. Here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much, Manny. Awesome. Next on my list, I have, uh, Josh Wells. Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going, Anne? Nice to meet you. Hi Lau. Anne: Hi. Nice to meet you too. Welcome. Thanks for joining us. Josh: Yeah. Super excited. Anne: We are ready when -- we are ready when you are. Josh: Heck yeah. Cool. All right. Josh Wells, non-union, Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Um, up next, we should have Kelly White. Kelly White. You are next for the live auditions on VO BOSS. Kelly: Hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Kelly: Hi there. Nice to meet you Anne. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Wonderful to see you. Kelly: Thank you. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Kelly: Okay. Kelly White. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. All right. Who do I have next? I have Alicia Hiller. Alicia: Hello. . Anne: Hello. Welcome. Alicia: Good -- good to meet you. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Thanks for joining us today. All right, we're ready when you are. Alicia: Alicia Hiller. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Ah, Aria. Fantastic. Real cold read. All right. So we are ready when you are. Aria: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with a new Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a new hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places when we know a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. All right, cool. Thank you, guys.wor Anne: Thank you. All right. Um, and now Carole. Carole, we're ready when you are. Carole: All righty. Thank you. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got great deal -- knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Carol. Just remember a lot of times we have auditions with instructions, right? It's important to just go through those instructions too. And I know like you know, there's a lot of people who like, you know, and the forms we'll talk about, well, you know, should I get SourceConnect and then, you know, or should I wait until I get my first client? And this would be one of the reasons why , why you wanna make sure you test out all those tech things first. I am proud to be able to to give you this technical -- these technical issues to help you to learn because you know, it's all our mission, right, Lau -- our mission is to educate. Lau: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm like, you know, I'm not a negative Nelly at all. But I'm very much a realist and I say to folks, even if you've used your program, even if you've used your booth a million times, get in there early. Because anything that can go wrong probably will. And you wanna be able to have time to troubleshoot that and not miss out. So it is a good lesson. It is. Anne: Nicole. Nicole: Hi. Anne: Hi. Welcome. Nicole: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Well, we are ready when you are. Nicole: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. There you go. Anne: Thank you so much. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: I remember being in the LA area, and of course, Lau, I mean, maybe if you ever had to run into the city to do a live audition, right, traffic, traffic. And so when the audition time was slotted right, you would I -- you would pray that there was no traffic jam that would be holding you up. And if you did hit a traffic jam and you got there late, sometimes you missed the audition. Sometimes you got there way early and that therefore you had the script. So I kind of like how we're really mimicking this. You would, you know, you'd be able to practice with the script a little bit longer if they had a, if you had a line in front of you. So, you know, I feel that there's all these -- this tech issues are kind of mimicking the traffic that we would hit when we would be, you know, in the car on the way to the studio. And thankfully now, we can, you know? Lau: The, the one, the one element of this that I think is really different and unique to the circumstance, that is sometimes we can't help tech glitches when they happen, and sometimes we can. And so just kind of knowing the difference. Like I'll give you an example. For instance, if someone knows that they have to be on a laptop and have to go through Chrome in order to do the audition, it's really on that person to go on a laptop and go through Chrome. That's something that could be avoided, but all of a sudden my transmission is bad because the hurricane, all of a sudden, you know, my lights go out. You know, that's something I can't help. So I think being able to determine what I sort of have control over and I sort of don't have control over -- and then the other thing too, and this is just me, you and I are exactly alike in this way, Anne, I will leave four hours early to get to an appointment, knowing that if I'm three hours early, I can do my work, I can have coffee, I can shop, I can do whatever. I don't wanna do the last minute thing ever. Like that really stresses me out. And so just for everyone coming in, like leave yourself plenty of time. Anne: Oh, fantastic. Stephanie. Stephanie: Hi. Anne: Welcome. Stephanie: Thank you. Shall I? Anne: Thanks for being here. Yes, we are ready when you are. Stephanie: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors even in more places, knowing we got a deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much. So Lau, I have my notes ready and you have your notes ready. Let's talk. Lau: I do. And I am wondering whether it's now or maybe later, if we could also go over some of our top kind of rules of the road in this kind of an audition. We talked a little bit about it throughout, but like, what are our top, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 things that we wanna see people be prepared to do or not do that happened today? Like, because here's the thing, from the talent's point of view, they see nothing. Like they know nothing and see nothing. You, I ,and Sean we're doing this whole massive thing -- and Carol -- this whole massive thing to make this session run. Anne: Right, behind the scenes. Lau: I would love to share a little bit of that so that again, we can go back to what is in my power to change and control and prepare for and what is really not. Anne: Fantastic. Lau: Are you okay with that? If we like just throw a few rules of the road in? Anne: Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and start, Lau. Lau: Okay. I'm gonna start. So one of the things that is -- and again, I'm sharing this educationally, I don't want anyone to feel like we're chiding you or, or, or, you know, cussing you out or anything. It's not about that. This is about education. So that when you're on the real deal in the real scene, a lot of this will sort of dissipate, and you'll be able to work streamlined like a pro. So this entire time, and you'll see my head was down a lot when you see the video of this -- why? Not because I was falling asleep, because I was constantly texting, constantly emailing and helping people troubleshoot all along the way. Now I'm not the tech person to help you troubleshoot. I was expediting those emails and texts over to Anne, over to Sean, over to Carol where they needed to go. In the real world, you won't be able to do that. This is not the real world. This is our educational fun forum. But in the real world, there will be no one to text, no one to email, and no one to help you tech troubleshoot. So, simple things to avoid, I really want y'all to avoid is knowing the device you have to be on, knowing the, uh, uh, application or the program you need to be on, testing it through, preferably the day before rather than the day of. And also being in a solid space where you've got some audio integrity. You're not in the middle of a huge room or in a car or in a big living room to get the best quality that you can get. So those are all, in my mind, things you can somewhat control so that you can get to the next step, which is your talent, your work, your audition. Many of you couldn't get to it fully, 'cause I know most of you. You just couldn't get to it fully because you were so concerned about the tech, about all the tech stuff that was going on. Anne: And, and also, I do wanna say that those instructions were sent out a couple of days in advance, even though our, we changed the script on you. The instructions were sent out. And, and look, most people, if it's going to be a technical, you know, if it's going to be something technical like this where you're joining, uh, remotely via, you know, SourceConnect, ipDTL or some other form like Riverside, it is definitely advantageous to, uh, to test that technology out. You know, it's always wonderful to have a group of, you know, of, of colleagues that you can work with at any given time and say, hey, look, can you help me test? I mean, there's a lot of you know, forums and groups out there that say, hey, I need to do a SourceConnect test right now. Can you help me somebody test with me? So make sure that if this is something that you need to, to do, to do it in advance. And especially if, you know, a lot of times we're asked to record as well, and this could just be something maybe we're recording in, you know, through, uh, SourceConnect Now, or we're recording locally or whatever it is, Make sure that you hit that button and test it in advance. And so not having the technology throw your performance, which I'm sure it probably did for some of us a little bit, and I feel like, I feel like I might have heard that in some of your reads. Um, and as well as, you know, everything that you can possibly do to make that session go smooth. And also, you know, trying not to let that show when you get in the room to actually do the audition. Right? It's in and out and no excess. Nothing necessarily in terms of like, not too much small chat because -- Lau: Anne, you took it outta my head. You took it right outta my mouth. That was my next point, was like, there used to be an ad campaign many years ago for a deodorant, never let 'em see you sweat. That's where like, we're an actor. We're an actor, we're an actor. And what do actors do? They have to act. And that doesn't mean in the role all the time, that means as a business person, like you have to make your client feel like everything's okay. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Lau: Don't worry about it. The sky isn't falling, even though it may not be okay. And you may not be able to audition and they may be disappointed. Don't let them feel like you are disappointed, you're upset, you're worried, you're scared, because that, that mirrors onto them. And then that, that becomes a, like a, you know, a, a slippery slope as they say. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: You know? Anne: Absolutely. Lau: But then being said, Anne, I do wanna congratulate everyone for the ones that -- actually most people were able to get in and show up and do -- almost all. And I just wanna give you a huge round of applause in kudos for doing that, despite your issues and your tech glitches and your confusion and your craziness. Look, you did it. You showed up. You went through it. That's the pro that we wanna build onto. Anne: Yeah. And I, and I wanna say thank you, really. I mean, this is, this was the first time that we've done this. And I think that it's, I like to believe that it's educationally valuable to, you know, the community. And I thank you for being a part of that, uh, from the bottom of my heart, really. Um, I'm really proud of all of you. Number one, it's a Saturday. So thank you for coming out and doing that and then dealing with tech frustrations. And so let's talk a little bit, Lau, about selections. Do you, do you -- Lau: Let's. Do you want to create our shortlists? Anne: I think we should create our shortlists. So first of all, I'm gonna say uh, you know, for, for a lot of the people, I feel that because it was a cold read, there were a lot of reads that sounded a little bit cold read. Um. And so if you had time, right, if you were not the first person, literally, or even if you were the first person, like the, I think my suggestion would be out of the mouth immediately once you get that script. Um, you know what I mean? Get that, get those words out of your mouth because that becomes muscle memory. That's gonna help you make it not sound like a cold read. It's gonna help you get the context of the script quickly. And remember, we are storytellers. We need to tell the story. Even though this was a short script, there was a definite story there. And I needed to feel, above the words coming out correctly, I needed to feel the warmth, the emotion, the point of view. Lau: Mm. I love all that. And as an actor, I mean, I think, you know, we have to choose very specific, very quick actor choices. We don't know if they're gonna work. We don't know how they're gonna land, but we have to be connected to something that's real. We have to know who am I speaking to and what am I connecting to. I like to use props. I mean, I'm a big prop -- like even if I'm, you know, if I'm doing a, a makeup ad, I might have my lipstick ready to go. You may never see it, right, 'cause I'm a voiceover. So you may never see it, but I feel it. I smell it. It's in my hand. There's something, you know, visceral about stuff that is real, that I can hold, I can use, I can feel. I like that. And engaging the body as well. So whether I'm sitting, I'm standing, whatever I'm doing is like, how does this translate within my body? Where's the energy coming from? You know, some of you came in with really warm, rich, textured sound, and that felt right to me. It felt like a way to go. It felt like a path. And as I watched you, I could sort of see where that vibration was coming from. I could sort of see where that was coming from today. So I think not disconnecting your head and your voice from the rest of your body and your spirit is super important. Anne: Now I'm also gonna point out that, you know, part of the specs and, and I think part of what I think innately most people are looking for in this style of, of script is something, you know, uh, not, uh, nothing smooth, polished, or announcery at all. Okay? So that's hard when you're doing a cold read. So the sooner I said, the sooner you can get that script outta your mouth -- and by the way, if you weren't one of the first few that came on board, you know, maybe that's something you were doing in the background right? Until we called you, because we definitely had enough time now through this whole process where people towards the end had a good, ample amount of time to kind of get a feel for that script, you know, and, and really, and do and, and just really feel the copy, understand the copy, know what story you're telling. Natural, and again, I'm looking at some of the specs that we were looking for, you know, natural, not performative, not laying on the gravitas, um, an air of lightness to the reed, which I liked. Um, there was some really nice light reads in there that I liked. Um, what else can I say about, you know -- and I think following the specs is one thing, but then adding something different, right? In addition to making it that non-announcery, telling the story, there, there, I think trying to incorporate something that's a little bit different, a little bit unique, uh, something that you think no other talent is going to give, right? That might surprise us. So I had a couple of, you know, as I was typing madly my notes, a couple of melodies that I heard in there that were really nice, There was like a, a, a lilt on one of the words or maybe a little point of view that was different than I was anticipating, which made me stand up and take notice. And guess what I did, Lau? I actually starred those, uh, those reads. And those are the people that I am, I have on my list to call back. So. Lau: They got Anne's gold star. That means something. Anne: They got my stars. Lau: That means something, right? I love that. That's great. I love that. Oh, there's a point I was just gonna make and I forgot what I was gonna say, but, but I'm hearing you on what you're saying, Anne, because I think that the, that that disappointment, if you will that word disappointment of, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I'm doing this -- wait a second, I'm not doing that. I'm doing something else. Whatever that is, that disappointment, that surprise, that let down that, that confusion, like, it's really important to feel that and be in that space. Certainly as casting as you are, as agent as I am, we're constantly dealing with that. Just when I think it's one thing and I know it, it turns into something else and I don't know it. And typically it's because of priority. So if someone switches a script or someone switches an audition, it's typically, typically because another audition came in that's much more time sensitive. So we have to, I might love say Manny or Kelly or Stephanie, but I also kind of love them for this new one that came in. So I want them to put that on hold just for a second and take this script and do it. So being able to improvise, impromptu, shift fast, interpret fast, I think is really important. Anne: Yeah. And, and before we actually I think reveal, because you and I, I mean, I have my list and you have your list, so we need to agree upon five people that we're gonna be calling back. Uh, I, I really just wanna say that, that it's something, that's something different, right? Uh, the more that you can practice reading your scripts, I mean, I can't say enough how, how important it is to just find different scripts, read, practice all the time, audition -- it, it just helps you to be stronger. And get feedback from, you know, from coaches and, and people that you trust that have been in the industry, that can really help you to, to, you know, uh, perform better and make those bold moves, and workout groups I think are so important. Um, like I have my VO Peeps group and every month, you know, we are working out, and, and, and I know that Lau, you have the same thing. Uh, those are so important to help you get that practice under your belt so that you can -- you need to experience all the different styles, all the different reads in order to make mistakes and grow from them. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: Think it's all about growth, all about growth as an actor. And, and if you're not doing something every day that is voiceover, that is, uh, you know, looking at different scripts, scenarios, practicing, working, uh, I, I think you're, you're missing the boat on growing as an actor. Lau: Right, right. And I think it's also the how we deal with stress. How do we balance, how do we manage time? How do we manage our crazy lives when this stuff comes in? Because you -- you know, I always say be careful what you wish for. You might get it . And when it comes in, it always comes in at the most in inopportune times. It always comes in at the time when you're the busiest, and you're working, and you have events, and you have kids. It always does 100% of the time. So you kind of always have to set your life up that I can go in the space, I can do this quickly, I can make it happen even though I've got a whole bunch of layers going on around me. They don't need to know about it. As we always say, uh, leave your trash at the door. You can come get it on your way out. Don't bring it into the studio. Um, and, and being able to really practice that, really practice that skill along with your actual delivery skill. 'Cause it's a whole other skill, that's an executive functioning skill. That's like, how do I manage 25 things at once and how do I make those 25 things all feel important and all feel like I'm not getting crazy? Like, that's, that's a functioning skill that we have to practice and we have to really work on every day along with the actual acting skills. Anne: Yeah. Right. Lau: That is, we work -- Anne: On, Oh, I'm sorry. I, I was just, I was thinking, I was thinking, uh, while you were talking. Now as we reveal -- Lau, I'm gonna have you read, you know, maybe a list or a couple of people that you, that you kind of have selected and we'll see if we agree. Lau: Yeah. Actually, can I ask you, Anne, just to crosscheck, how many out of our list do we have that actually auditioned? Or maybe I should say how many did not audition? 'Cause it seemed like most auditioned. Anne: Three, uh, three did not. Um. Lau: Okay, great. Yeah. So we had 12 -- Anne: Well, actually, actually two out of the list did not, and then you added, uh, Brit, so. Lau: Okay. So we actually had 12 or 13? Anne: Yep. We actually had 12. Lau: Fantastic turnout. Anne: Out of the original list we had 13. Yeah. Lau: Don't you think that's -- Anne: That's fantastic. Lau: That's a fantastic turnout because we always have, in any audition, a percentage of people who do not audition. There are no shows where they just don't audition for many reasons. So that's actually very high, that level of -- Anne: And they didn't even know their script. Well, they -- Lau: And they didn't know anything and they still showed up. Anne: Yeah. That's good. So. Lau: But see, I think that's a testament. I wanna, I wanna make mention, I think it's a testament to Anne, to myself, and to the nature of this whole group, this whole community of how much we trust each other, we care for each other. And you're just getting to know Anne, many of you, and, and she's part of our community now. And like, like-minded people hold each other up, motivate each other, inspire each other, and through the difficult moments, get each other through it. And that's exactly what happened today. Exactly. And so I just wanna call attention to that from a, a, a social and, and professional friend network, but also a community, sort of inspirational, motivational, holding each other through this. You guys did that, even though you may not have talked to each other. You may not have met with each other. You did that in the space, you did that in the online space. And that's -- Anne: And in the chat. Lau: -- so important to do. Absolutely. The chat. That was great. Okay. So how many, Anne, you think are we gonna shortlist here? Would you say six? Anne: I've, I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: Um, so that I'd like to hear, and I, and I just wanna say one other word. Not only was it how I wanted to hear that script in terms of the specs, because consider I am the client or I'm, I'm with the client or I'm representing the client, how I wanted it to be that non-announcery warm feeling with all the, with all the feels, uh, in that description. It's also water. I feel like the voice also, if it hadthe sound that I was looking for. And so there are some that I feel out of the five, I feel some did one better than you know, the other. Um, but they all had something that made me put them on the short list. Lau: So, Okay. So, uh, uh, first of all, everyone had something that I could potentially work with. I would just wanna say that I'm not just saying that to butter people up. I'm saying everyone has a unique quality that I could really direct and work with, but based on what we were looking for and what our vision is, here's some of my top peeps. Okay? I'm just looking my list. Okay. So Manny is one of my tops. Okay? Anne: Agreed. Lau: And I have Kelly, who's one of my tops. Anne: Okay. Lau: And I have Nicole. Anne: Yes. Lau: And I have Aria, and I have, uh, Josh. I wasn't sure how many we're looking for. So -- Anne: Five. Lau: So that's, that's five. I have more. But we'll stop at that. We, we'll stop at that. Anne: Okay. So I have -- I agreed with you on Nicole, Manny, uh, Josh, and then I also had, uh, marked Alicia and uh, Carole. Lau: Good. Three outta five ain't bad. . Anne: Yeah. So, uh, we definitely have the three. Now let's just discuss. Let's just discuss because I think, uh, for me, Nicole had a nice hush that says some of the, the notes that I wrote about Nicole that I really liked. And, and Nicole was also second, so she didn't have a ton of time to prepare. Um, and she came through even with that. Now -- Lau: And you know what I loved about Nicole is when she delivers, there is something that is transfor -- transports me when she speaks that I'm in a different world. I'm in a different mode, I'm in a different world. There's something a little bit magical about her sound that I caught right away. And about her essence, because we were meeting her and seeing her on camera, there's very calm, sort of meditative, logical head on the ground feel to her. And I, that all kind of went together as this really lovely package of someone who I felt really safe with, I felt really good with. Anne: Awesome. Uh, uh, Manny, like from the first few words, I kind of had him marked already. He started off, he started off with a real warm, nice, friendly, uh, not announcery style. And that's what I really, you know, I immediately wrote, you know, stars there. Lau: Yeah, he's super pro. He has a pro sound. There is a polish there without sounding overly announcery. Um, there's a clarity there, and there's also this kind of like sexiness to it that I didn't expect, uh, because I wasn't looking for that. So there was this, uh, appeal to it that, that I really liked. It was almost essential appeal without asking for that, which I liked. Um. Anne: Uh, fantastic. Lau: And he seemed very sure of himself. 'Cause I had not met Manny at all. Anne: Very confident. Lau: He was brought over by a dear friend. And we literally met today when he came in, and I just, I just loved his presence. I just loved his confidence, and I just loved his kind of chill, laidback, but professional guy persona. He had a persona that was very strong that I heard his sound. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I completely agree. Um, Josh, now I have Josh. Um, there was a word of course I was typing so furiously that I couldn't type the word correctly, but he had a word in there that caught my attention, and it was the timbre and the lilt of the word. So as I was mentioning before, sometimes it's just something a little bit different that captures your attention. Um, and so that's one of the reasons why I marked him. Uh, and then, so there's where our three agree upon, and so now we just have to talk a little bit about our ex, our next two. Lau: And I wanted to make mention about Josh too Because Josh, and I don't know, I don't know if this is age related or, or what, but there's, he's right in the middle. There's an interesting gray zone that he's in between that cool -- Anne: Yes, I agree. Lau: -- surfer dude, laidback guy. And someone who's a little bit more professional and on it, someone who's a little bit more with it, the guy in the know. So he has that standup comedy, funny, fun appeal to him, but he has the serious enough that he can land it and have some ethos there. Anne: Agreed. Agreed. Lau: That's why I love Josh. Okay. Um, okay. The two outside of that, yours was Carol and Alicia. Anne: Carol and Alicia. Yes. Lau: You know, close second, this is what people spend fighting behind closed doors about for like hours or days is like you're kind of fighting over people who are all talented. Anne: And that's it. I think, you know, and, and here's the deal, here's where it comes in. So Lau and I are gonna discuss who those other two are gonna be. And, uh, this is probably what happens in most casting , right, offices or whoever's fighting you for the client. And we'll just go back and forth, uh, on the reasons why, you know, we either want this for the callback, right? And, and even what during the callback we'll be figuring out, well, you know, what is the reasoning for any one particular voice? And sometimes you just don't know what that is, and it's not always based on performance sometimes. Lau: No. It's just sometimes it's just like an instinct, a feeling, an impulse. And, and in my mind I'm thinking some of these people are like, oh, okay, so if this person can't do it, they're booked, or they get sick or whatever, then this person could easily go in. Totally. So it isn't the case where I really love this person and I really don't love this -- It's not always that case. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: There's a lot of like, gray zones of people that kind of fall in the same grouping, but that just don't make it to the booking, you know? Um, so Carol's voice is fantastic. I mean, it's very, to me, very corporate sounding. It has very businessy, corporatey, flight attendant-ish, finding the exit kind of sound. I like it. I love it. It's, I felt it was a little bit too objectified, a little bit too removed for the level of warmth that I was, was looking for this 'cause it is travel. When I think about travel now, and I think about number one, trying to reach the younger people, the younger generation, I think about a slightly, you know, not younger -- younger is a mythical word. It's just like a slightly more, more energized or more youthful kind of thing. Anne: Sure. I get that. I get that. Lau: And then also a, a, a little bit of like boxy or squareness in terms of it. Anne: But now when I, of course, Carole, as you said, more corporate and of course, you know, I'm very attuned to the corporate ear because I do a lot of that myself. Now, I'm also gonna say for Carole and thinking of travel, I was thinking, oh, she would make me feel comfortable on a plane, like if she were the flight attendant and so Expedia. So that was one of the reasons I thought it fit. But I'm going actually, and I'll cede you Aria because I love Aria. Lau: You'll raise me Aria. Anne: I'll raise you Aria because even though I didn't check her, I do love that voice. She's got that youthful, that youthful style if that's the market we're looking for. Um, she, you know, we did give her a different script immediately. Like she literally had no time to even voice it and have it come out of her mouth. So I have to take that with, you know, a little bit, uh, you know, a grain of salt because she really didn't even get it out of her mouth, except that was the first time. So for me, I had written that it was a little fast, but I understand why, because it was the first time coming out of her mouth. Now if I'm going on my gut and saying, you know, could you convince me, Aria, um, yeah, you could because of, because I like the timbre, the tone of her voice, the demographic is there for the script. And, uh, so yeah, that's my, that's my thoughts. Lau: And, and you know, I just wanna point out that, you know, if we don't forget about who are really, who's our target demographic for this, and is like both of these women could absolutely deliver this script. But when we get back to, you know, who the client really wants us to be looking at, it's really that, you know, 18 to 35 demographic. Because let's be honest, that's most of the people that are on like Travelocity, Kayak, Expedia, and going up-up-up -- not to say the 40 and up are not doing it, but for this particular one, one of the goals is to kind of find someone who has a bit more energized or youthful presence. Anne: All right. You've convinced me. Lau: So anyway, so that's one issue there too as well. Okay. Anne: Yep. You've convinced me. Lau: Okay, so Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Okay. Lau: Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Oh yes. Lau: Um, and I love her quality. She's got a rocky, dirty sort of like textured young sound. So I do like it. I, I felt like it was a little slow, like it wasn't as energized. Anne: Yes, I agree with you there. Um, and I wasn't, I wasn't thinking slow in terms of the read, but more contemplative and thoughtful. And she was another one who had a really nice different sound on the word -- she interpreted the word color toward the end of the script a little bit differently than most other people too, so we can find our colors. And I feel like that the, the operative word obviously in, in any story that we're telling, right, there's some operative words in there that really need to kind of hit the, the listener. Color is one of those words. And she really had a different, a slightly different pitch on the word color, which is why I I marked her. So. Lau: Right. Now, here's the thing that you and I both skipped over. And you guys listening in, this happens all the time. Um, you guys both, ironically we both skipped over the fact that the client does want diversity for these roles. And I don't know how I could skip that over, but I got excited with the switch out of script, but -- Anne: Well, we did change, we did change it for this purpose to all genders and ethnicities. But you're right. I mean, diversity is something that has to be a consideration and -- Lau: Right, authentically, right, diverse. So whereas like someone like Kelly, who I know very well and is a total pro, and can do this in her sleep fits that bill in so many ways and the voice is so layered and rich and textured -- Anne: Oh, I agree with that. Lau: -- and seasoned -- Anne: I agree with that. Lau: You know, it's, we're gonna have to go back and forth on, you know, the age thing and the youthful-ness thing because she's much more of a mature sound in my mind. Anne: My only, my only comments, I mean I did, I did like Kelly, I, my only comments was that she was a little too fast on the read I thought on that. And so, but you know what I'm -- Lau: But we can direct her. Anne: I could -- okay. Lau: Where she's directable. Anne: I feel that she -- all right then, then. Alright, so then I think we have our five then. Lau: And you know how I know she's directable, for those listening in? Because we know her personally. We have a relationship with her. Anne: Okay. Now -- Lau: Normally I couldn't say that if I don't know her. Anne: That's what I'm gonna say. So, and only, and only in this instant, right, if, if you know a casting director, here's an advantage, right? Um, if a casting director has heard you before or hired you before or has worked with you before, you know, it's, it behooves you to have, you know, a, a, an excellent relationship. Or when you work with them, make it as smooth as possible. Make it easy for the casting director. Make it easy for them to work with you, and they'll remember and have you coming back. So. Lau: And quite oftentimes, the casting, we see this all the time at the agency, we'll come back to the agents and go, love it. Great. Good. Need some retakes. It's too slow, I need it, da da da da. Right? And then we can go back to those people and we know that they can do it. They're capable of it. They're willing to. Anne: Yep. All right, So then we have our list, our callbacks. We're gonna call these five people back. Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, and Kelly White. Congratulations. I would like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys were amazing. I can't wait for the next episode. Lau, love you. Thank you so much, guys, and we'll see you soon. Lau: Great job. Anne: Bye-bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

What would you do if you found out you had a terminal illness? Would you be able to wrap up your life admin on your own? Would you be able to handle friends and family? Would you be able to juggle all that with medical appointments and treatment? And what happens to your story after you're gone? Meet Helen and Judy. Helen is a Death Doula and her life's work is helping those who know the end is near, and even those who didn't know, through those final stages with respect and care that is shown for those coming into the world, while Judy is an end of life biographer who collects the stories of those leaving the world in order for those who are left behind the know them for a lifetime after. We also catch up with a couple who know the end isn't far for one of them, to find out how these women help them get through the toughest times. Subscribe to Mamamia GET IN TOUCH Feedback? We're listening! Call the pod phone on 02 8999 9386 or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au CONTACT US Got a topic you'd like us to cover? Send us an email at thequicky@mamamia.com.au CREDITS  Host: Claire Murphy With thanks to:  Helen Callanan - Founder, Managing Director and lead educator at Preparing the Way *Simon & *Nicole - Thank you for letting us into your private world Judy Hubbard - Eastern Palliative Care Volunteer Biographer *Names have been changed for privacy Producer: Claire Murphy Executive Producer: Liv Proud Audio Producer: Thom LionBecome a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rounding Up Season 1 | Episode 3 – Recording Student Thinking During a Mathematics Discussion Guest: Dr. Nicole Garcia Mike Wallus: If you're anything like me, learning to record students' mathematical thinking might best be described as on-the-job training, which meant trial and error, and a lot of practice. Our guest on today's podcast is Nicole Garcia, the co-author of an article, published in Mathematics Teacher, that explores the practice of recording student thinking, and offers insights and some principles for making them as productive as possible. Welcome to the podcast, Nicole. Nicole Garcia: Thank you for having me. Mike: So you and your co-authors start the article by acknowledging that representing and recording student thinking—when you're in the moment, in a public space, with students—it's challenging, even for veteran teachers. And I suspect that most teachers would agree and appreciate the recognition that this is a skill that takes time and it takes practice. What makes this work challenging and why is it worth investing time to get better at it? Nicole: Well, so I think you said a lot in your question that points to why this is really difficult work, right? First of all, it's in the moment. We can't predict what students are going to say. We can do some anticipatory work. We might have guesses. And as we move along in our careers, we might have gathered some really good guesses about what students might have to say, but you never can tell in the moment. So unexpected things come up. Students' phrasing can be really different from time to time, even if we're familiar with an idea. And we're also standing in front of a room full of children, and we're trying to manage a lot in the moment—while we're listening, while we're interpreting those ideas. And then we're trying to figure out: What do we even write down from this mass of ideas that was shared with us? So that's a lot to coordinate, to manage, to think about in the moment. But it's really critical work because part of our goal as mathematics teachers is to build collective knowledge, to support children in being able to listen to, make sense of, interpret one another's ideas, to learn from each other, and to build on one another. And so if we want to make that happen, we need to support making students' ideas accessible to everyone in the room. Mike: Hmm. Nicole: And listening is only one part of that, right? If you think about what it takes to make sense of ideas, it takes multiple representations—those are things that we're working on in math. So we need the kids in classrooms to have access to the words that children are speaking. We need them to have access to visual representations of the ideas that are being shared. We need them to have access to the ways that we typically record those things in mathematics—the symbolic notation that we typically use. And we need that to happen all at once if we want kids to be able to unpack, make sense of, and work with others' ideas. So it's really important work. And I think it's worth investing the time in to get better at this because of the power of having children learn from one another and feel the value of their mathematical ideas. Mike: You know, as you were speaking, part of what I was doing is making a mental checklist from principles to actions. And I felt like, check one: asking purposeful questions. Check two: connecting mathematical representations. I mean, as you describe this, so much of what we see as really productive practice is wrapped up in this event that takes place when teachers get together and listen to students and try to capture those ideas.  Nicole: And that capturing is really important if we want those ideas to stay with us, right? Like, I think about the number of times that I've been in a discussion with a group of people—it may have been in a class, it may have been in another space—and the whole thing happens. And when I leave, sometimes I wonder, ‘What just happened? What did we think about together? What ideas did we engage in?' And I can't hold onto them. And recording on the board in the public space offers an opportunity for those ideas to stay with us, for us to hold onto them, for us to revisit and come back to them. So it's critical for continued learning and mathematical growth.  Mike: Absolutely. So this particular part of the article that you wrote—as I was reading it, and you were describing the challenge of recording student thinking during a discussion—this particular statement really struck me, and I'm just going to read it as it was in the article. ‘The thinking being recorded is not the teacher's own, requiring the teacher to set aside their own strategies and interpretations of the math work, to focus on representing student thinking.' I would love if you could talk about why you felt like it was so important to explicitly call this out in the article.  Nicole: Yeah. So I think that there are a couple of things here that are important. One is that, as a teacher, you're thinking always about the trajectory of your lesson, the trajectory of student learning, where you want to be and steer. And so a lot of times, when we're listening, we're listening for something in particular, right? We have a plan in mind, we have an idea, we know where we want go, and we're listening really carefully for a catchphrase, a vocabulary word—something that we recognize, that we can pick up and pull into the discussion and move forward, right?…and march on, and accomplish our lesson. And a lot of times that kind of natural way of listening is not aligned with what students are actually trying to communicate, because the ways that children express themselves—in particular around mathematics—are really different than the ways that adults, who know math well, express their ideas about mathematics. So there's a lot to hear in the language that they're using, in the trajectory of their talk, that's both difficult to follow and difficult to figure out what the big idea is that they're communicating. And when we're listening for our own understanding, our own ways of working, our own strategies, we often miss what children are actually bringing to the discussion, to the conversation. We miss their thinking.  I think about the number of times where I've been a student in class and I've said something and the teacher rephrases it in the way that they really wish that I would have said the thing.  Mike: Yes.  Nicole: And it's not, like, it's not even my idea anymore, but you kind of nod and you go along with it. And so I think, you know, as a teacher, you get those cues that, yes, you did just rephrase what the kid said. They just said, ‘OK.' And you record that thing and you move on. And so I think reflection—checking back in with children about whether or not you heard their idea, whether or not the representation that you're putting on the board actually matches what they were thinking about—is really, really critical. Because it isn't your thinking. It's the child's thinking and we want to make sure that that's what we're representing. Mike: Yeah. I read this and I will confess that a part of me thought back to the points in time when I was teaching kindergarten and first grade. And I suspect anyone who's taught and tried to record students' thinking has been in a spot where you have kind of a pathway that you're thinking the learning will follow. You have an idea of how the big ideas might roll themselves out.  Nicole: Um-hm.  Mike: And I think what I found myself thinking is, there are certainly many, many times where I felt like I was true to student's ideas, but I was really conscious that there were definitely points where, what I heard and what I represented differed, probably because I was thinking to myself, ‘Gosh, I really want this model to kind of come forward.' And the truth was, the kids weren't taking me there and I was trying to force it. I guess what I'm saying is, it really caused me to think back on my own practice and really kind of reconsider—even when I'm doing professional learning with other adults and children—the need to listen, as opposed to kind of have the path sketched out in my own mind.  Nicole: Well, it's really difficult to do, because sometimes as a teacher, you really do need the lesson to go in a particular direction. There are all kinds of constraints around teaching. And I think what's important is knowing that you've made that decision. ( laughs ) Right? Because sometimes you might. You might…  Mike: Yes!  Nicole: …rephrase it a particular way because that's the move that you need to make in that moment. And I think that sometimes that can be OK. We need to give ourselves permission as teachers to make the best choices for our whole class and the students whose ideas are being shared in the moment. But I think knowing that that's what you're doing is really important,  Mike: Right. Like, it's a conscious decision to say, ‘I've heard that. I'm going to take this in a different direction.' Rather than just imagining, ‘I've heard that. I'm going to represent it.' And not kind of questioning whether what's being represented is the student's thinking or your own thinking.  Nicole: Right. Or even better, making the decision that, ‘I heard, what that child said. And I'm going to say back to them,' for example, ‘so I think what I heard you say is…bop, bop, bop. Can I try an idea out?', and actually sharing the idea that you have on tap. Or saying something like, ‘You know, I've heard some of my students in the past say something really similar. Can I share that idea with you? And let's see what's similar or different.' So thinking about how can you get that idea out there, that you really wanted to record, that the student didn't say, in a way that isn't totally disingenuous—pretending you heard something that you didn't hear.  Mike: Right. You're kind of acknowledging that they said something and you're…. It's powerful; the language you used is really subtle. But it's essentially saying, ‘I've got something that I'd like to contribute that your idea made me think about,' or…  Nicole: Um-hm.  Mike: …that you want to also put out there. And I think that subtlety is important. Because as you were describing that feeling of, ‘I said something. Teacher revoiced it in a way that was totally different,' and kind of the bad aftertaste that that left. Nicole: Yeah.  Mike: You know, that subtle ask—of the child—for permission, really kind of shifts that dynamic.  Nicole: It's saying, ‘I value your idea and let's consider this other idea.' It's OK for teachers to put ideas out in the space.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: But acknowledging that that isn't what you heard and you're going to record this other thing, or maybe you record both of them…  Mike: Right!  Nicole: …and talk about the similarities and differences.  Mike: So I'd love to shift just a little bit and talk about the role that recording can play in developing students' mathematical vocabulary. And I'm wondering if you could talk about the ways that recording can help students make connections between their informal language and the more formal mathematical vocabulary that we want them to start to be able to use. Can you talk a little bit about what that might look like?  Nicole: Yeah. So I think that there are a couple of ideas to be thinking about. One is that we actually know a lot about how children develop vocabulary. We know that that's a progression and that students need opportunities to play around with ideas, to have something to hang that vocabulary word on.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: Once they have the kind of core idea and they have some informal language—some way to describe that idea—that's the prime place to be able to introduce the formal mathematical vocabulary. They're able to make connections to that big picture, that core idea that they've come up with. They have some informal language to go around with it. And now they have a real name for it—the formal mathematical name for it. We also know that one of the ways that students remember and are able to recall—and use appropriately—vocabulary is by having a visual representation that goes along with that mathematical vocabulary.  Mike: Hmm.  Nicole: So one way that representations and recordings can support students in learning that vocabulary is first, by having them build some representations that go with that vocabulary word, but then also having those labels on the representations that make their way onto our boards.  Mike: Ah, yep.  Nicole: In addition, you know, when we do things like dual labeling, um, where maybe in our classroom space, we've named something with someone's name, right? As we're beginning to talk about an idea, we might call it Diego's idea, Diego's strategy. Then when it makes our way onto the board, we can label it with ‘Diego's strategy' and the formal mathematical name for it so students are able to connect the of things. But even if it's not a student's name as the name of the strategy, there's lots of informal language that students bring to mathematical ideas. They have to have a way to talk about things. And so we can dual label those ideas on our board to help students make that connection and to let them walk between using their informal language and using that formal mathematical language, and being OK with that.  Mike: So just to go back… Describe dual labeling again, because I think I've got an idea of it, but I want to make sure in my own mind I've captured that correctly. How does that work?  Nicole: Let's imagine that we have a strategy—a student has shared a subtraction strategy in our discussion, and I've represented that strategy on the board, say, using a number line.  Mike: Okay.  Nicole: And, say, the kids are calling it scooting—they're scooting the numbers to make this subtraction problem. So I might actually write on my board, like, on the left hand side of the strategy ‘scooting,'…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …and then on the right hand side, label it ‘shifting the numbers' or whatever our formal mathematical language is going to be for our classroom. So we have both of those things labeled on top of the strategy. And I might even draw a double sided arrow between the two to help…  Mike: Oh! OK. Nicole: …[undecipherable] that the strategy that's there has these two names and I can use those names interchangeably. But over time, we get to a place where we're calling it by its formal name. And kids also have the idea that, ‘oh, that's the one that's the scooting strategy.' They have their own name that they gave that idea. Mike: That is really helpful. And I think the example you shared really kind of shows how dual labeling kind of progresses and there's almost kind of a fade out at a certain point. Not that you're purposely not permitting kids to use ‘scooting,' but that a certain point you're kind of fading and you're starting to use the more formal name. They can use it,…  Nicole: Um-hm.  Mike: …but that you're really kind of trying to help them make a transition to the formal vocabulary.  Nicole: Um-hm. And if you think about, you know, kids are really used to using multiple names for things.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: They have nicknames that they use at home,…  Mike: Yep.  Nicole: …they have their home name, they have their school name, they have their friend name. There are lots of different labels on the same kind of thing. So that's a natural progression of language for them. And it doesn't cause complications to have, like, these multiple names for this idea. And we can shift toward using the formal language once everybody has that tied up.  Mike: Yep. So as I was preparing for this interview, and even as I was reading the article, I found myself thinking about my life as an elementary school teacher. And I think what I found myself thinking was, is that I learned how to facilitate and record math discussions—like a lot of folks—trial and error and a heck of a lot of practice. And I think what I really appreciated about what you and your co-authors put together is that you actually laid out some principles for recording that support mathematical understanding. And I'm wondering if you could just unpack some of the principles that you think are important, Nicole.  Nicole: Yeah. So as we… as we were working on these principles, we were trying to think about, like, what are the big ideas of what gets recorded, right?, and how we record in a classroom. What are the big things that we want to make sure get attention in that work? And so we kind of organized under three big umbrellas of principles, one being around advancing mathematical ideas. Because the goal of discussion in mathematics is to build ideas together and to move the mathematics forward using student ideas. So when we think about what gets recorded, we want to record in ways that are helping us build those mathematical ideas together. So in that area, we'd really be thinking about recording the core ideas, deciding, like: What's important enough to get on the board? What do I want to make sure gets up there that's going to help push people's thinking forward? And then at the same time, thinking about: What's the right level of detail?  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: Sometimes you look at a board recording… If you walked out of the room and you came back in and you looked at it, you would have no idea what happened…  Mike: ( laughs )  Nicole: …what had gone on, right?  Mike: Yes!  Nicole: Like, there's not enough there to really, like, get a sense of what happened. But sometimes there's so much there that it's a jumble and you can't discern, like: What's important here? So that ‘just right' space of managing the detail—so there's enough that you can make sense of it when you come back the next day, you get what happened; it's enough to prompt your memory, but it's not overwhelming—um, is really important because we want kids to be building on those ideas over time. So we want those recordings to be in that kind of level of detail.  And then thinking about that arrangement. Where am I going to put things so that I can help students make connections between the ideas that have been shared? Right? Do I want kids' strategies to be next to each other? Are there particular strategies that, if I stack them on top of each other, kids are going to be able to see different kinds of connections,…  Mike: Um-hm. Nicole: …similarities, or differences? Like, where they are in relation to each other, if you think about how we make sense of space, matters.  Mike: Yes.  Nicole: So that was… that's one kind of bucket. A second bucket is really respecting students as sense makers. And this comes back to what we were talking about earlier, with really paying attention to: What were students trying to communicate? So, ‘Did I actually record what the student said it or did I write down what I wish they had said?' But trying to stay true to: What was the core of that student's idea? And am I representing that correctly? But then also adding enough detail so that the other students in the class can figure out what that student's idea was about. And we can do that through questioning, but part of that has to come out in the recording as well, because we want that record to be like the full representation of the ideas that students are communicating. And then labeling those ideas so that we're able to talk about them easier, right?…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …that we're not just like pointing to a general space, but we have some language, we have some vocabulary, we have some kind of label to be able to talk easily across those ideas.  Mike: I had a follow up that I wanted to ask you. So, again, I'm paraphrasing, but one of the things that really stood out for me in the way that you unpacked the principles was: Our recording should show the thinking behind the idea rather than the steps in the solution alone. I would love for you to expand on that a bit.  Nicole: Yeah. So the thing that we're trying to get out when students are sharing strategies in class, when they're sharing the ideas in class, is in some ways the generalizability—to use my big math vocabulary. We want to get to what is the core of the idea that they're sharing that can be used across multiple kinds of problems in lots of different ways. And so recording just the steps that get followed, may show—or it may not—the steps that somebody followed for that particular problem, but doesn't show the thinking that could be used to solve other similar or different kinds of problems. Right? So we will want to be able to record in a way that gets to the heart of the thinking. So if you think about a student, for example, using counting up to solve a subtraction problem,…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …then I might think about what's important are the steps that a student is taking to count up. So they're either thinking about it on a number line and they're hopping along the number line to count from one number to another. And so on the board, I would actually want to record those hops because that's the underlying idea—is that we're looking at the repeated unit distance between those two numbers.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: OK? If a student is counting up using their fingers,…  Mike: Um-hm. Nicole: …then I might want to actually record a hand on the board and the count that the student is doing, so that other students in the class are able to try out that strategy, use that strategy, and think about when it's useful. But if all I've recorded on the board, are the words ‘counting up' and then the problem that they solved, that doesn't necessarily support other people in being able to try out that strategy or that idea, or even think about when would it be useful or not.  Mike: That's super helpful. I love the idea of generalizability. If I've done recording well, allows other kids to have access to the strategy that's being highlighted, rather than simply putting together the steps that showed how a person came to this individual answer, at this particular task, at this particular time. That's a really helpful clarification, I think—in my mind.  Nicole: If you even think about things like annotation and the power that annotation on a recording can have. And we think about the U.S. standard algorithm for addition,…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …where students are… they're adding and when they get a number that's greater than nine, they're making groups and carrying that group, right?, to the next place value. If we're actually annotating that process with what each of the numbers means as we're doing that work together, that can really support students in continuing to make meaning. I think that one of the things that often happens is, we make meaning when we're introducing the algorithm, we do some work together. Students are really in a place where they're understanding place value, they're understanding making groups, they get what that recording means. And then we kind of say, ‘Great, then we're just going to record this way from now moving forward.' And we continue to do that recording without the kind of reinforcement about, again, what are… what are we saying these numbers mean? What are we actually doing here? And so we move from meaning toward this recording without meaning?  Mike: Sure. That absolutely makes sense.  Nicole: Very quickly for children. And then, you know, too… I know that, for example, my fifth grade teachers would say that oftentimes their kids come to them and… and can't explain what's happening when kids do that addition. They do the work—they know how to do the work—but they can't say what it is that they're doing. Right? And so annotation can really support that, that remembering of what have we…? What kind of collective understanding have we come to?  Mike: Sure. That totally makes sense. So I wanted to ask you a bit about guidance that you'd offer to teachers. I suspect there's a fair number of people who are listening, who are really thinking about their own practice and are wondering: What steps might I take as a teacher—or maybe within the team of folks that I work with—to really try to attend to the principals and the practices that we've talked about? What's your sense of how teachers can support one another in, kind of, practicing the principles that that we've unpacked today?  Nicole: So I think there are lots of options for what it might look like to focus on and practice this work together in a teaching community. I think one way that we talked about in the article—and it's not the only way—is using video. There are lots of videos that are available on YouTube, on TeacherTube, etc., of classrooms where people are leading discussions, are recording student thinking. There are lots of videos of student thinking out there where—in a pretty short amount of time—I could, with my peers, watch this video and practice recording—either on a board, on a chart paper, on paper in front of me—recording what I'm hearing from students. And then afterwards comparing our recordings together and talking across them. What are the features that each of us has picked up on? In what ways were we in line with what the student was sharing? Where are there differences in how we interpreted what a student was sharing? And that's a pretty quick activity. I can find a five minute video. We can do that work together, talk about it in, like, tops 20 minutes, really, to do that kind of activity together. We can also do work where we're visiting each other's classrooms.  Mike: That's what you had me thinking, Nicole.  Nicole: Yeah  Mike: Yeah, absolutely!  Nicole: I can go to somebody's classroom. I can—on my lap—have my piece of paper where I'm trying to record as students are talking. And after that lesson, debrief with a teacher that I'm observing, about, ‘What was it that you decided to record? How did you make that decision? Here's what I had.' And really talk across those ideas because it's small changes in practice over time. This is an overwhelming set of work, this recording work. And it's going to get better by increments, but it's going to take practice, talking with colleagues, and really coming back to these principles and thinking about: Am I adhering to these things? Where is it that I really want to work and I improve my practice? Because I would encourage people to pick one—to start with—that you really want to get better at and focus on that one.  Mike: Yeah. I think what's powerful about this too, is that I would imagine you could certainly do some of the things that you described if you were the only teacher at a grade level.  Nicole: Yeah.  Mike: But gosh, when you put other people together and think about the ability to help one another raise your consciousness about why you made a particular decision or why you chose to go in a certain direction with a representation… That's kind of that intricacy where teachers can really help one another. I mean, we are keen observers of behavior. That's… ( laughs ) that's kind of the bread and butter of a lot of what we're doing when we're talking about differentiation. It's really powerful to think that teachers could help one another build their craft around this.  Nicole: Um-hm. Well, and it's… it's a really interesting practice, I think, in that there isn't one right way. ( laughs ) Right? There isn't a right way to represent a particular idea. Um, there are lots of really good features of different kinds of recordings, and so there's lots to discuss and… and a lot to learn from each other. And your… your comment about the being alone had me thinking about the work that you can do just by studying student work…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …and thinking about: How are students inclined to represent their particular ideas and how might I translate that into how I represent things for the class on the board? Because students do a lot of their own translation of their thinking into representations on their homework. We can pull student work sets. You know, if we look at Inside Mathematics, there are lots of student work site, sets up there on that site that you can pull and study and look at how children are inclined to show their thinking.  Mike: So I'm going to back up and just ask if you can identify and source that resource that you just shared about Inside Mathematics. Would you… would you mind—for people who might not be familiar—just unpacking what that is and where folks can find it?  Nicole: Yeah. So, Inside Mathematics is a really great resource for teachers. It came out of a project funded by the Noyce Foundation. The website is insidemathematics.org, and it's currently housed at the Dana Center at The University of Texas at Austin.  Mike: Gotcha.  Nicole: Great resources for teachers. There are videos of lessons. There are problems. There are assessments. There are lots of resources up there, but one of my favorite resources is that, with each of the problems, they have student work samples. And so you can really see a lot of student thinking inside of those.  Mike: That's fantastic. You really answered my last question, which was going to be: For folks who, again, are listening to this conversation and thinking about steps, they might take… resources that you would recommend to someone who's really wanting to think more deeply about representation and the practice of representing student thinking.  Nicole: So I think the big three are ones that we've covered and that would be visiting your colleagues classrooms—  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …whether in person or via video—depending on what the setup of your school is; visiting sites of video, right?, so going to YouTube, TeacherTube—seeing how people are representing that work and then comparing how you might choose to represent that work; and really digging into student representations of their own thinking.  Mike: That's fantastic. Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today. It has absolutely been a pleasure to talk to you.  Nicole: Thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.  © 2022 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

In Hypothesis VIII, we found ourselves considering something that is rather jarring to our sensibilities. We began listening to Saint Gregory the Great on the experience of those who die and come to life again and how this can happen by Divine Providence. We are presented with stories of those who are brought to deep repentance when they began to see that fearful state of Hell. We are also shown that such experiences may take place by God‘s providence perhaps not for the conversion of the one who is dying but for those who witness the the terror of the death of one outside of the grace of God and lacking a repentant heart. There is a fierce love at work bringing about our redemption and that fierceness shows itself by stripping us of any illusions about our lives; illusions either about our own mortality or the immortality of the soul. We see our great dignity and destiny in Christ. We are offered life eternal and an experience of union with the Triune God. However, this immortality of the soul outside of the context of our relationship with Christ presents us with a fearful reality; life without God and eternal death. God and his providence will scourge us in order to correct us and draw us back to the path that leads to life. He will allow us to taste the consequence and the bitterness of our own sin in order that we might turn away from it and hate it. This may not be easy to listen to and our inclination may be to turn away from it or to sanitize it. But if we strip the gospel of its teachings on the last things, if we remove the challenging thoughts of Christ in regards to the unbridgeable chasm that exist between heaven and hell, we lose sight of both our dignity and the weight and significance of our choices in this world. If the stories lead us to repentance they will ultimately lead us to joy; for they will lead us back to the bosom of God. Therefore we must not fear them and we must not avoid them - but allow them to shine their fearsome light upon us. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:16:07 Eric Williams: Father forgot to mute everyone, so everyone check your mics! :) 00:16:23 Edward Kleinguetl: Thanks! 00:21:36 Tyler Woloshyn: He was also the author of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts in the Byzantine church. 00:33:46 Ambrose: The staff is for beating off the wolves. :) 00:39:19 Eric Williams: Like what I was saying about young married priests in the East not having older priest families to learn from. 00:48:32 Edward Kleinguetl: Heb. 12:6. 00:49:58 Edward Kleinguetl: "For whom the Lord loves, he disciplines;  he scourges every son he acknowledges.” 00:51:59 Eric Williams: “My child, do not despise the Lord's discipline     or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves the one he loves,     as a father the son in whom he delights.” - Proverbs 3:11-12 00:52:02 renwitter: We do not always want to draw that connection between suffering and sin though, right? Christ himself addressed that, and I think of job's friends trying to convince him that all he is suffering is a result of sin, which it wasn't. Isn't suffering also something given to us as a means of drawing us closer to Christ in His passion? 00:52:22 Erick Chastain: oh yeah for sure, not always 00:53:55 Eric Williams: ““How happy is the one whom God reproves;     therefore do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.[d] For he wounds, but he binds up;     he strikes, but his hands heal.” - Job 5:17-18 00:54:31 Edward Kleinguetl: Abba Dorotheos of Gaza: “In God's providence everything is absolutely right and whatever happens is for the assistance of the soul. For whatever God does with us, he does out of love and consideration for us because it is adapted to our needs.” 01:17:01 Edward Kleinguetl: I met him, April 2, 2019, on Mt. Kolzam. 01:29:30 Nicole: Thank you!!! 01:29:59 D Fraley: Thank you Father David      

We can't wait for you to hear Nicole's incredible VBAC story! She is a successful, driven mama of two and owner of The Polished Playhouse. You will feel her resiliency over and over during this episode. Nicole shares with us her firsthand experiences with racial bias during her first birth and along her journey to VBAC. You will also be inspired by how Nicole overcame challenge after challenge giving birth at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. We talk about the reality of racial bias in the birth world, why you shouldn't trust the VBAC calculator and a way that anyone can advocate for change. Have the courage to set yourself up to feel safe with your birth team and get that supportive birth experience you deserve!Additional linksNicole's Instagram: @polishedplayhouse Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020The VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: All right. Good morning Women of Strength. We are so excited to be here with you today as we always are. I think every guest that we have brings this different kind of excitement with them. Today we have Nicole with us who is amazing in 360°, just all-around. We were just chitchatting with her before we started the episode today and she is an incredible, incredible, incredible woman. I cannot wait to share all of those interesting details and information about her with you. But before we do that, Meagan is going to read a Review of the Week for us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Okay, so this is from holmclaugh90. It says “I listen every day. After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second! Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing I can do this!”That was put in last July, so that means last October she would have had her baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, shoot us a message. We would love to know how things ended up.Julie: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the review. You know we always love them. They are near and dear to our hearts.Nicole's storyJulie: We are so excited today to have Nicole with us. Nicole is really exciting. I just pulled up her bio. We have a form that we have our guests fill out before they come on our show so that we know a little bit about them. The more I read about Nicole, the more I am just like, “Oh my gosh. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this.” The first one that caught my attention was she is a social media content creator. She has a really awesome Instagram page called Polished Playhouse. It's all one word, @polishedplayhouse. You can see the link to that in our bio. We are going to drop it there for you, so you can give her a follow. But she-- oh my gosh. There are so many amazing things. She creates curated boxes for children ages three to five years old with books and all sorts of educational things in them for your toddlers. I am sitting here, I am like, “Okay. I need to order these boxes. I need to sign up for the subscription box when it comes out,” because there are some really amazing things. I think that what really stuck out to me the most is she is including things with diverse backgrounds and diverse cultures. So her books have black children in them as main characters. She is a black woman living in Maryland. I'm excited to talk to her because I want to talk about black birth in America and how bias influences how people of color are treated in the birth space. We can talk about numbers all day how black women are two to three times more likely to have a Cesarean and three to four times more likely to die in childbirth just due to race. Guys, this is straight across the board. It is not influenced by socioeconomic status, education levels, income, any part of the country, there is this bias against people that exist in the birth room and I'm really excited that we are going to talk about that today. One of the things that Nicole said is that having a black provider to support her in a VBAC was very important for her because of that bias that exists. And so I'm excited that we are going to be able to hear about it from somebody who has lived through it, who is living through it, and who has come out on the other side having a hopefully-- I am making some assumptions now. Hopefully, having a very supportive experience for her VBAC. And so I am just going to sit here and geek out over her on her Instagram page while she is sharing her story.But she is incredible and I just can't wait to hear from her. And so instead of keep talking about it, I am just going to go ahead and turn the time over to her so that you can hear amazing Nicole's VBAC story.Nicole: All right. Thank you so much for this generous and kind introduction. I was a member of y'all's Facebook group and then also listened to the podcast all the time, so it is a huge honor to be on your show today.Julie: Aw, thanks.Nicole: As you mentioned, I am Nicole. I have two sons now. I have one who is four years old and then I have the second one who is seven months. I had my first son in 2016 and then had the second one in 2020. For my first son, I started care with a gynecologist that I had seen since college in the DC area. We had a pretty good relationship, so when I got pregnant, I just decided I would continue on with her. I had a pretty healthy pregnancy. There weren't any issues that came up. I was doing prenatal swim classes. I did a lot of walking. I was able to manage my diet pretty well. I didn't have any challenges. The doctor that I was going to was very cautious, so at the time, I had a number of different tests that she was running on me. She never told me why. Just a lot of different things that I wish I would have asked about that I didn't being a first-time mom. I didn't know what to ask. But one of the things that I did ask her-- because she was a very popular doctor in this area. So sometimes, my husband and I would go to appointments and it would be standing room only. There was usually space for all the pregnant people to sit, but if you had a partner with you, they would likely have to stand.One of the things that I asked her is, “If you're not able to deliver my baby, then what happens?” And she just brushed it off and she was like, “Oh, well that never happens.” Looking back, there was no way physically that she could have delivered all of the babies. So that just what is something that was lingering for me. If she wasn't able to be there, what would support look like?So the night that I went into labor, I went walking. I was bouncing on a ball and I started having contractions. I went and sat in the bathtub. I didn't wake my husband up. Usually, if I was having Braxton Hicks contractions, I would go sit in the bathtub and they would go away. These did not go away so I started to feel like, “Well, maybe this is it.”I woke him up and he freaked out. He was like, “Oh my gosh. The contractions are too close. We have to go.” We lived about 40 minutes away from the hospital and I chose the hospital simply because it was where my doctor delivered. I didn't know to do any research into the Cesarean rate or anything like that. So the hospital was about 40 minutes away. We got into the car. My mom was staying with us at that time as well. At this time, it is clear I am in full-on labor. We roll the windows down. My husband is barreling down the highway trying to get me to the hospital. We get there. As soon as I get into triage, I come off the elevator. I get there. My water breaks. I get back and one of the nurses asks one of the other nurses to check me. They check and she quickly starts calling for them to send me back. Then, one of the other nurses said, “Well, how far along is she?” I saw her mouth to the other one to say, “Seven.” Once I got to the hospital, my water broke immediately. I was at 7 centimeters. They took me back. My husband had left our car in the middle of the hospital driveway, so he had to go back and move the car. When he went to move the car, I saw my doctor for the first and only time throughout my entire stay at the hospital. She came in and she said, “You know, I know you're at 7 centimeters, but that was the easy part. I really suggest you get an epidural so that you can calm down so that you won't be in pain.”Leading up to that point, I had really wanted a natural birth, but I was obviously in a lot of pain. But she also really pushed the epidural in a way, looking back, in a way where I wish I would have pushed back. My husband was down moving the car so I'm in there by myself and I'm just like, “Okay. I want this epidural.” So I get the epidural. It took over an hour for them to get it. They poked me several times. They just couldn't get it right. So once they finally got it in, I took a really brief nap, and then they woke me up and told me it was time to push.So I pushed, and pushed, and pushed. The nurses were somewhat supportive. Now that I have had a new experience, I really know what a really supportive team looks like, but I ended up trying to push my son out for about two hours. He never went into distress. I was exhausted, but he was fine the entire time. So as I am pushing, I am starting to feel really discouraged. I don't feel like I'm making any progress. My sister was there and they kept telling me, “Well, we can see his hair, so I think he is close. We can see his hair. We can see his hair.” A doctor comes in that I had never, never, ever met before. I had never seen him before and he walks into the room. He put his hand down. He looks at me and he says, “You are not going to get this baby out. We need to have a C-section.”He didn't say anything else. He didn't introduce himself. My husband said, “Well, I need to talk to you outside.”Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. The only reason I can remember what he even looks like is because my sister has a picture of him.Julie: Wow.Nicole: He didn't tell us his name. Nothing. He was like, “There is no way you will push this baby out. You need to have a C-section.” So at this point, I am just hysterically crying. My husband goes out and talks to him. He told my husband that my son was just too big. There was no way he was going to get out, if it was a risk of him being paralyzed, just all of these things. So I cried, and cried, and cried, and then agreed to the C-section. I went back. First, I had to go back alone and I just remember shaking so bad. I couldn't tell if I was shaking because of the medicine, or if it was because I was afraid, or what. Finally, my husband came back. They let my husband come in and then I had a C-section. He was 9 pounds, so he was a big boy. He was a big boy, but we didn't get any information aside from the fact that “He is too big. You won't be able to push him out. You have to have a C-section.”So afterward-- when I tell the story, I talk a lot about the parts where I was separated from my husband because I think that's where I felt the least supported because I didn't have him there.Julie: Yeah. He was your voice.Nicole: Yes. They separated me from my husband. I went into a separate room and they were checking me, doing all of these things afterward, and they let my husband go with the doctor and the baby, and then a nurse came in. I heard her talking to the doctor that delivered my son and she said, “But she is allergic to this,” and I heard him say, “It's fine.” The nurse said it again, “No, but she is allergic to this,” and he said, again, in this very direct tone to her, “She's fine.” What happened was, they gave me something that I was allergic to. After I had my son, I broke out in hives all over my body.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: I was literally digging into my skin. People say, “Oh, well after you have the epidural, you itch.” I'm just like, “No. I've never had a baby, but I can't imagine you are supposed to itch like this.” So they just kept giving me allergy medicine after the fact, and then they put an allergy bracelet on me. This was after I had already had a C-section, after I heard the nurse tell the doctor twice that I was allergic, they put an allergy bracelet on me. And then after that, I see pictures of myself and I am so tired. It's because I am literally just pumped full of allergy medicine because I had this horrible reaction.So after that, we had a decent stay in the hospital, didn't really have any complications from the C-section, but one thing that always stood out to me even now is until I went to my follow-up appointment, I never saw my doctor again. I never heard from her again. Her shift ended while I was having my son and I literally never saw or heard from her again until I went to the appointment. Ahead of the appointment, she sent a review from her office, so she wanted me to review her. And so I think it was out of four stars. I was very generous and gave her three just because I felt like she abandoned me.Julie: Yeah.Nicole: The entire appointment, my first six-week check-up after my C-section, all we talked about was why I gave her three stars instead of four.Julie: No. No, really?Nicole: She never asked. Yes. Yes. She never asked how I was doing. She never asked anything about the baby. She was just so hurt and upset that I gave her three stars instead of four.Julie: Wow.Nicole: So needless to say, I didn't go back.Julie: You should have gone back and changed the review to one star. That's what I would have done.Nicole: I know. Yes.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: So I was good because I had a really positive healing experience. I didn't have any complications. I really was just like, “Oh, well I am one of the lucky ones. This is okay,” but not until much later did I start to think about the emotional impact of having the birth that I wanted to be changed in really such an insensitive way. So when we started thinking about having a second baby, I knew that obviously, I was not going back to her. I had started researching about VBAC, started listening to y'all's podcast, joined the Facebook group, and really started looking for a provider. I learned a lot about black maternal health which I didn't know before. I learned a lot about biases and a lot of it of just not being listened to, not being heard from black women mirrored my experience.Julie: Yeah, absolutely.Nicole: I really wanted to have a black provider. I found out that I was pregnant in late October 2019. We lived in DC when I had my first son. We had moved to Maryland right outside of DC and I found a practice, all midwives. There were only four. It was a small practice. Two of them were black and then two were white, but they were really, really experienced and from everything I read, it was a really pro-VBAC practice.I went there for care. I had a completely different experience just from the very beginning. With my first doctor, I always felt like I was very sick. With them, I never feel like I was sick. They were just so positive. They kept reassuring me, “You can do this. We think you can do it. We know you can do it.” Never did any type of VBAC calculator, anything like that. They were just really positive.So I was going there. I went there all the way through March, so up until I was about 20 weeks, I went there. I had such a positive experience, always left really happy. March 11th of last year, I went for my 20-week scan. This was right when COVID was just starting. It was just starting to be talks of, “This is a thing. This might change everything for us.” So I went at the 20-week. It was one of the appointments where they were just starting to limit people who could go into offices. So I went to the 20-week scan, everything was great. The next day is when we got an email from work, from my job, that we were going 100% remote. That's when my son‘s daycare closed. It all happened in that same week.And then I was home on my very first day of remote work and I got an email from the midwives that said, “We are so sorry, but after 20 years, we just cannot continue the practice. It's just not financially viable for us, so we will be closing.”Julie: Oh my gosh. This is so much all at once. Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. It was the day that the world shut down and I'm sitting here like, “Well, this is the new normal. I work from home. My son is here,” and they sent an email and they said, “This is it.” They would be doing births through May and my due date was July. I could stay on with them until May or I could switch then. I was just completely devastated because I had grown so fond of all of the midwives. I had met with all of them.I knew there was another practice in the same area, so I just thought, “People have positive births with midwives, so I'll just switch to that one.” I continued to get care from them up until around the time that they closed, but I had been researching where I would go. So they closed. I went to my last appointment with them and at that time, I started really looking into also getting a doula. The hospital where I would be delivering had, in maybe April or May when COVID was really bad, they said, “No additional support people,” so, at that time, I couldn't have a doula. I would only be able to have virtual support. I was bummed about that. So I'm looking into the possibility of not being able to have a doula or having a virtual doula and then also finding someone completely new to deliver my baby. I went to one appointment at the new practice. This was, again, the only appointment that I had during my entire pregnancy where my husband was not allowed to come with me. I went to this practice. I went in and immediately it was, I don't know. The energy of the place just did not feel right to me. I went in. I was sitting. I was waiting and then the midwife came in and she said, “I need to do this calculator on you.” And I had heard about the calculator. I heard a lot about the limitations, a lot of the biases that are built into the calculator.Julie: Yes.Nicole: Again, this is someone who did not introduce herself to me. She didn't ask me anything about my--Julie: All she wanted was a number.Nicole: She wanted the calculator. She did the calculator and the calculator said that I had a 30% chance of a successful vaginal birth. She was like, “You know, I mean, I can let you try, but just look at this. Your chances are not good. I'm telling you now.” She said it in a very matter-of-fact way. “Well, I mean, what have you been doing with yourself?” And at this-- I was so sick during my first trimester.Julie: Wait a minute. She said, “What have you been doing with yourself?”Nicole: Yes. She said that because--Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Because I had a big baby before that there was a chance that I would have another big baby and she linked big baby essentially to me eating too much. So, I know.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. At this point I was--Julie: And this is a midwife.Nicole: Yep. This was May, so--Julie: Was it a white midwife?Nicole: Yes. This was May.Julie: I think this is where bias is coming into play as well for sure.Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.Julie: Sorry, I'm going to let you keep telling your story. Sorry.Nicole: That's all right. She made a lot of assumptions. At that point, I had literally gained nine pounds because I was so sick during my first trimester. I didn't gain a lot of weight at all. And even with my son who was 9 pounds, I gained 27 pounds for my entire pregnancy. And then for my entire pregnancy with my son, I gained 27 pounds and he ended up still being a 9-pound baby.Julie: That's still a perfectly average weight gain.Nicole: And so she asked me, “Well, what have you been doing with yourself?” I am like, “I have been walking. I've been eating hardly. I haven't gained a lot of weight.” She said, “Well, I am telling you now. You will have to get a weight scan close to your due date and at that point, we will decide whether or not we can try for the VBAC.” She said, “But based on this calculator, I don't think you have a good chance.”I said, “Well, I have heard that the calculator is inaccurate.” She said, “Well, we have been having some conversations at the hospital about it, but we still think it is the best tool.” I said, “Okay.” I left there. I literally held myself together just to get to the car and I was so frustrated. I called my husband. I am like, “This is not it. I am not doing this with them, so we have to find someone else.” This was right in the middle of the worst of COVID, so a lot of places were not seeing people in person. They were doing a lot of telehealth visits, especially for someone as far along as me. So I don't know what to do. With the first practice where I was, I had to go to an OB/GYN to get essentially cleared for the VBAC, and the one that I went to, I really liked her. I decided that I would transfer to them. I am like, “Okay. I will just move on from midwives and I will transfer to this OB/GYN.” She was also a black woman. I started the process of transferring to that practice. I looked online at the reviews and the reviews were either a one-star or a five-star. So then I looked further and the practice actually was about 30 doctors and you didn't get to decide. It was whoever was on call, so that reminded me a lot of my first birth where it was just this doctor that I had never met that I didn't have a relationship with, so I quickly got over going there. I got over that and I had no idea like, “What am I going to do?”So my husband has a really good friend that was a doula. She is taking a break right now. He called her and she told us about the hospital where I ended up delivering in DC. She said, “If you want to have a VBAC in this area, that's where you have your very best chance.” So the midwife practice in DC, they are very, very popular. They have all of these rules you have to follow. There's a specific diet and they have different groups that meet, so I just was convinced it was too late. I was about 32 weeks at this point. That was so late. It's the middle of COVID. There's no way they will let me join. They wouldn't let me make an appointment with midwives, but they did let me make an appointment with the OBs. So I went and I saw the first OB. I was very nervous. I am 32 weeks at this point. This is my last shot. So she came in and she was asking me about the birth and she is like, “Yeah, I see that the first baby was really big.” And I just was like, “Oh my gosh. Here we go again.” She is like, “Well, that really shouldn't hinder you.” So I just was like, “Oh my goodness. I think I found my people.”Julie: What a relief to hear.Nicole: Yes, I think I found my people.Julie: Yes.Nicole: So she was really great and that was a white provider. She was really great. She was like, “Well, I don't think that will be a hindrance. We deliver 12, 10, 11-pound babies here all the time.” She obviously gave me the risks for the uterine scar tearing, all of those things, but just in a very informative way, but still very supportive and saying, “We think you can do this.” So because they made my initial appointment with the OB's, I just was convinced, “Okay. This is it. I have to go to the OB‘s.” I went to another appointment. I met another one of the OB's. She was also great and then about 35, I think it was 35 weeks, that hospital, in particular, said, “We will allow doula support again.” I was seeing a prenatal massage therapist and she had been watching the hospitals, like, updates for me really closely. She texted me in the middle of the night, “You can have doulas again at the hospital, so make sure you find one.” At this point, I needed a doula within a week's notice. So I went on Instagram, was reading, scrolling, looking for a doula. I found one doula, a woman of color that I reached out to. I sent her an email and I am like, “I know it's completely late. I am delivering here. I'm having a VBAC. Please, will you take me?” She said, “Well, you know, I really don't come to that part of Maryland. I really don't come to your area, but can I think about it? And then I'll let you know.”We had a quick chat and later, she told me she just was making sure, feeling me out. We had a quick chat and then we signed the contract. She was my doula at about 36 weeks. I met her in person only one time and she suggested to me, she said, “I know you have had these two appointments with the OB's and feel comfortable, but I really think you should switch to the midwives.” I am like, “I am 36 weeks. There's no way they will let me do this.”So when I went to an appointment at about 36 weeks or 37 weeks, I asked one of the OB's, I said, “Do you think they would let me switch to the midwives?” She said, “I don't know. We really don't do transfers this late, but I will ask.” So she sent an email to the midwives and she said, “We have a mom here who really wants to be seen by a midwife. She is a VBAC. She seems like a good candidate. Please, will you do this for her? She really wants it.”For some reason, they said, “Yes.” I went to an appointment at 38 weeks. I went to my last appointment with them and my very first appointment with the midwife. I was 38 weeks. I think it was a Tuesday and I met a black midwife that I had heard about. Everybody talked about how amazing she was and she was just this fierce advocate for black birthing people and she is just amazing. And so my first and only appointment with the midwives was with her and it was just so great. I am like, “Yeah, they did the calculator on me.” She's like, “Oh no. We don't use that calculator.” She talked so badly about it.Julie: Yeah. That's what I like to hear.Nicole: Yes. She was like, “We don't do that. Blah blah blah.” So I told my husband, I'm like, “Oh, I really hope we just get the luck of the draw.” It was, I think, six or eight midwives and I'm like, “This is it. This is it. I really, really want her. I think I will have a great experience with her.” So I went home. I was praying, “I want this midwife to deliver my baby.”I started having contractions the very next day after I met her and I am like, “I don't think this is it.” So I actually went and I did some shopping. I went to FedEx and mailed some packages and my contractions started really picking up. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well if they get a little closer, let me know. But I think this might be it, so you should go home. Take a nap. Lay down.”I laid down for a little bit and the contractions just kept picking up, kept picking up and I knew like, “This is it.” So my husband called the doula. She said, “I won't make it to your house. Just hurry and go to the hospital.” On the way to the hospital, I had to roll the windows down and get air. We were playing meditation on the Bluetooth in the car. We get to the hospital. I say all the time that literally every good person that was available in DC was there at that moment in time from the guy who just literally let us leave our car in the middle of the street and asked if I need a wheelchair if I needed anything. My doula was literally standing right there as soon as we got there. We went up and at this point, I am in full-on labor. I am trying to practice my breathing, doing everything. I get checked in. As I am getting checked in, they say, “Can you call the midwife who is on call?” And then one of the nurses said to the other one, “Which one is it?” and she said the name of the midwife that I had met literally just hours before, this black midwife that I told my husband, I am like, “That's her. She is going to deliver the baby.” And she was on call. At this point, I am bawling because I just cannot believe that all of this has worked out in this way. So she comes back. She checks me and I was 9 centimeters. They had to give me a COVID test. They gave me the COVID test. I didn't even get the results.Julie: Yeah, I was going to say.Nicole: They took me right back. My husband went down to move the car and I'm like, “Oh no. This is déjà vu. This is what happened last time.” But I had a doula with me and she was there and she was advocating for me. I honestly didn't even need any advocacy anyway because they were just so great. So I'm like, “I don't know what's happening. I think I have to push.” I remember the nurse said, “Well, push,” just so casually. So I was sitting there and I'm like, “Okay. Maybe I will try to push or just try to breathe into it.” My doula talked me through some breathing. I was on my back. They called the midwife. They said, “You have to come in here. We think this baby is coming.” My husband got back right just in time. I am literally still fully clothed. At one point, I was on all fours and I heard the midwife say, “Okay, his heart rate is dropping.” And I said, “Oh no.” They all slapped me back into reality and they were like, “No. You turn over and you push this baby out.” So I turned over. I did three massive pushes and he came flying out with his perfectly round head, which was the first thing I noticed about him, and a head full of hair. I just could not believe it. My doula was able to get a really great video of it and I said, “Did I do it?” And they all said, “Yes, yes, yes. You did it! You did it!” It was just such an amazing experience the way everything worked out, just the support from all of the nurses. It was such a healing, liberating, amazing, amazing experience. At no point did I ever feel like I would need a second Cesarean. They didn't even mention it. Everyone was just committed to helping me have the VBAC that I really wanted.I was able to do skin-to-skin with him right away, which I wasn't able to do the first time. I had such a different healing experience. It was just a really, really great experience for us.Julie: That's amazing. If everybody would feel so supported in their labor-- you went through a lot of negativity until you found your people. Like you said, “These are my people.” And to feel so supported during your labor and to know the midwife that was going to be delivering your baby, that had to be such a weight off of your shoulders. That alone probably shifted your entire feeling going into the hospital.Nicole: Yeah. It was such a great experience and the midwife, after I had been with her, she had to leave really quickly because somebody else was having a baby, but when she came back in, I just kept thanking her over and over. She was telling me, “No. You did it. You did it.” And I just kept thanking her over and over because I just felt so grateful that she was there and that she listened to me. I am just forever grateful to her.The VBAC calculatorJulie: That's amazing. There are so many things I want to talk about. Holy cow. We just don't have time to talk about it. First of all, the VBAC calculator is awful.Nicole: Yes.Julie: Let's just talk for two minutes about the VBAC calculator and then I want to get into some current legislation to improve maternal health outcomes for everybody, but specifically with a specific focus on reducing the mortality rates for black people and minority populations. The VBAC calculator, we actually created a bit.ly for it. So if you go to bit.ly/vbaccalc, it will bring up the VBAC calculator. Put in all of your information and calculate it and you will get a percentage, right? First of all, if you're preparing for a VBAC, this calculator is not evidence-based. ACOG discourages even using it and if you have a predicted success chance of less than 50%, it doesn't really mean anything. My first client ever as a doula, my very first client was a VBAC. She was an islander and her VBAC success calculator told her she had a 4% chance. Like, a four. F-O-U-R. She pushed her baby out in 20 minutes, guys. She totally nailed it, right? And so don't let that number discourage you, but what I want you to do is go in there, put your in your information, and calculate your number.And then, change your ethnicity. Change it from white to black and calculate it. Just change only that one thing and when you input black as your race, it drops your chances by 20%, roughly.Nicole: Yep. Exactly.Julie: It's always right around 20% just because you are black.Nicole: I did that. Yep. I did that and I had about a 30% chance when I was black. I didn't change anything else, my weight, my height, anything, and when I took out black, it went up to a low 50%. Yep. It went up a little bit over 20%. Exactly.Julie: And my VBAC, just for comparison, so my VBAC calculator was 62% was for my first VBAC and then when I changed it to black, it dropped it down to 48%. Now that I have a way higher BMI when I calculate it now and keep in mind I've had three VBACs, it takes me being white to 42.7% and when I'm black, it drops me down to the mid-20's.The VBAC calculator is based on a sample size of 7,000 people. They just tried to use all of this data to collect to tell what kind of chances people could have because in healthcare, they love data. They love to see the numbers. They like to know what's going on. They like to predict things. But what they didn't consider in that calculator is the bias that comes in the birth room for black women specifically because our black parents are dying at 3 to 4 times higher rates than white women of the same socioeconomic status, education level, income level, and same parts of the country, and Hispanic people are dying at twice the rate. And so we have this big healthcare disparity, but oh my gosh. It is so hard. I am so grateful for the last year. COVID has totally sucked, but I think there have been a lot of good things that have come about, lots of stirrings, and lots of noise, and riots, and challenges, and things come up where black voices are being amplified and we are hearing them more in our healthcare system. We are hearing them more. I think that's a really good thing, but if you are just some white doula from Utah like I am, what are we supposed to do? How can we influence the healthcare disparity in our local communities? I have an answer, something you can do if you want. I don't know, Nicole, have you heard of the Momnibus legislation?Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020Nicole: No. I need to look into that.Julie: Yeah. So Representative Underwood is a black female representative in Congress and she introduced the Momnibus Act. It's spelled just like it sounds. It's M-O-M-N-I-B-U-S. It's designed to address the overall-- we are one of the greatest nations in the world, but we have one of the highest maternal mortality rates and that's really sad. But what is even sadder is the disparity of those mortality rates between white people and people of color, and black people are in a separate class. They are even more likely to have Cesareans and more likely to die during childbirth. And so this act addresses the overall maternal healthcare system in improving and decreasing that overall maternal mortality rate but also decreasing the bias that exists in our healthcare system. I'm just going to go over-- you can just Google “Momnibus Act”. They introduced it in 2020. They're making some changes to it and they are introducing it again in 2021.I mean, a lot of some good changes have started to be implemented in 2020 just coming from this, but the bill has 12 key points in it. I am going to try and just go through these super quick.The first one is, “Make critical investments and social determinants of health that influence maternal health outcomes.” So housing, access to healthcare, transportation, and nutrition. “Provide funding to community-based organizations.” So community healthcare in underserved populations, community-based maternal health care, rather. They are studying the risks facing pregnant/postpartum veterans, which, I am a veteran. I served in the military for five years, and so I think that's actually a really cool thing that they put in this bill in addition to everything else. But they want to put effort and money into diversifying the perinatal workforce because Nicole, you said it was really important to you to have a black provider to reduce the risk of bias against you. So this bill has a goal to increase the number of black providers and providers of other color that we have access to in our healthcare system because that's another part of the problem.Nicole: Yeah. Mhmm.Julie: “Data collection processes” so we can better understand the maternal healthcare crisis. “Support moms with maternal mental health” because that's a big thing as well. “Improve mental healthcare and support for incarcerated moms.” “Invest in digital tools to help monitor maternal health overall.” It has lots of other things. I'm not going to keep going on, but one of the things I really like is that it talks here about educating providers about these biases that exist in their space because I know that a lot of the time, we are not aware of our own inherent biases that exist around us.Nicole: Yep.Julie: And I think as white people, it's easy to kind of brush off, “Oh, well I am not racist. I don't treat black people any differently than I treat white people,” but then doing that dismisses the idea. Even if that's true, it closes you off to see what other things you might be doing or what other things exist in our healthcare system that are biases against people of color. And so I think that's a big thing for me right now is just being more aware. I have had, I know me and Meagan have both had clients-- other nations, Asian clients.My biggest one I had was a Hispanic client and man, there was such a bias against her. I can't even tell you the amount of crap we had to deal with in the birth room and this is just here in Utah. And so we have seen and experienced it ourselves, but I think when you say, “This is not a problem because I am not a problem,” really closes you off to help fix the problem. So what I want you to do right now if you're listening and you want to help change this big gap in maternal health care for black women and other women of color is I want you to go look up your local state representatives and senate members and send them an email, or just Google “Momnibus Utah” or “Momnibus” in your state because each state has their own ways of introducing the stuff. I know Utah, maybe not all the states do, but most of the states have their own versions of the Momnibus Act they're integrating at the state level as well. Google your state representatives. Google your state Momnibus Act and send a letter to your representative, to your local legislator, and tell them that you support this, that this is important to you, and you want them to vote to move this forward and start implementing this across the country because that is the biggest way to get things to change from the top is letting your state representatives know that this is a big issue for you. When they hear the voice of the people that vote for them, that's the biggest way to get them to change things. Even get a community petition started, or something to where you can bring this up to your local leaders in our country, but also focus on your state as well because there is-- gosh, I wish I had the information in front of me. There are ways to reach out and I don't know. There's somebody here in Utah that was in charge of introducing a Utah version of the Momnibus Act. Gosh, it is just missing from my brain right now, the information. But giving feedback to our leaders, giving feedback to our leaders is what's really, really important and then being aware. Don't say, “Hey, I am not a problem because I don't treat black people differently.” You say, “Hey, this is a problem. Let me be more aware of it,” and just observe. Even observing and being more aware of the actual problems and what they look like is going to help you be more cognizant of things you can do to help change them. And then as birthing people, stand up for yourself. Change providers. Find your voice. I know it's not as easy as I make it sound. It's easy for me to say that, right? But getting educated about your options. Knowing like you knew, Nicole, that the VBAC calculator is crap. It is just crap. But you knew that. But somebody that doesn't know that and doesn't know that it is biased against black people is going to say, “Oh my gosh. I only have a 30% chance of success. Maybe I just shouldn't do this at all,” and then they have a repeat Cesarean which increases your chance of maternal death anyways-- a very small amount, but then, I mean, it's just a huge escalation. So being aware of the racial disparity in our healthcare system, and then observing it, and seeing what it looks like practically in your local area, and then speaking up and emailing your state representatives and your state government leaders about the Momnibus Act are things that you can do right now, today in order to help improve this change, and being aware of it, and stepping up for people. If you witness people of color, whether you are white, black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever your ethnicity or your background of your color is, speak up if you're witnessing this. If you're seeing this happening, speak up and say, “Wait, this is wrong.” I guess it could just be regardless of whether it's due to race or not, but you should always speak up if you see somebody being mistreated in the birth room. But also, don't be afraid to file complaints against the hospital or against the provider because that's another thing that is just going to bring more awareness of what is going on in our local communities. Sorry. I feel like I've been talking for just a really long time. Nicole, what would you add to that?Nicole: I think everything that you said is important, but I really want black women, women of color to know it's okay for you to advocate for yourself. It can be very tiring and very exhausting on top of what should be a very happy and positive experience but don't be afraid to advocate for yourself and don't be afraid to switch providers. If you go see someone and you get a feeling just in your interaction with them that you will not have a positive experience with them, don't be afraid to switch. I switched three times in the middle of a pandemic and it was honestly the best decision that I ever made. I would also suggest if you can, get support from a doula, or a partner, or a trusted family member so you always have someone else there to give voice to what you're saying, what your needs are, what you are experiencing, but just really advocate for yourself. Don't be afraid. Don't think you're being too much, or you're asking too many questions, or you are being too aggressive, this is your life. It's the life of you. It's the life of your baby. Advocate for yourself and don't be afraid to do that.Julie: Absolutely. I think that's so, so, so important. I love that you switched providers twice. But I've had clients, and I know we've had several people on our podcast, switch providers until they find the right fit. If somebody is treating you wrong, you have the right to leave providers and go to a different birthing location, even if it's in the middle of your labor. I know that sounds really hard and scary, but people have done it. It's been done. All right, Nicole. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today. I am seriously fangirling over here on your Instagram. I love your subscription boxes. Seriously, we are going to be doing something with that I think. Like, your monthly subscription. I want to get my hands on these diverse books for my kids. I really do. It's a really important thing for me. I'm happy that we found you, and that we connected, and that you shared your story, and especially for allowing us to talk more about the healthcare disparity with black people in our country. So thank you. Thank you for spending that time with us today.Meagan: Yeah. Thank you so much.Nicole: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Tonight we picked up with Letter 48. St. Theophan begins to instruct Anastasia about how to attain Undistracted Prayer. One of the most difficult labors in the spiritual life is to settle one's thoughts. As we seek to take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ we are confronted with the multiplicity of our thoughts and their unruliness. Theophan tells Anastasia that she must have firm resolve and hold on to her anxiety about this and intensify her efforts in correcting the fault of allowing her mind to wander. To pacify one's thoughts is a gift of God but nonetheless we must labor with our whole being. We must force ourselves in every good thing but especially in prayer. Theophan is very stark in his language. He does not hesitate to tell Anastasia that prayer is the most important thing in our life as human beings. In fact our whole being must become Prayer; we must be directed toward God in all that we do say and especially in how we pray. Therefore we cannot enter into prayer as a by-the-way activity or in a haphazard fashion. To do so, Theophan tells Anastasia, is a criminal offense. This language seems harsh but what he's trying to communicate to her is that prayer is fundamentally an act of justice toward God, giving Him what is His do. We have been created for Him and to share in the fullness of eternal life. There is nothing more important in this world than to live for God. ---- Text of chat during the group 00:37:24 Eric Williams: Sometimes maintaining a prayer rule feels more like a sysyphean task than herculean. ;) 00:39:28 Sheila Applegate: Add Cerbwrys 00:39:35 Sheila Applegate: Adce 00:39:57 Sheila Applegate: Cereberus spitting fire from the base. 00:40:24 Sheila Applegate: My phone is glitchy, sorry. 00:42:15 Miron: metropolitan 00:47:38 Mark Cummings: It is my dream to live next door to church 00:48:10 Eric Williams: Often it's not just a matter of how close a church is, but more whether/when it's open for prayer. :( 00:49:11 Wayne Mackenzie: There was a time when the churches were open all day 00:50:56 Mark Cummings: Not long ago I could go to adoration any time 24/7 00:51:02 Mark Cummings: pre-covid 00:51:15 Mark Cummings: I miss that 00:51:41 Wayne Mackenzie: I am talking about the 60s 00:52:26 Mark Cummings: lol- it is not often that I get to say that was before my time 00:53:07 Wayne Mackenzie: yes I am giving my age away 00:58:15 Eric Williams: “Grasp” is an interesting choice of word. The origin of the modern “comprehend”, meaning “understand”, is from Latin for “grasp”. It's as though we wrap our minds around an idea, enveloping and seizing it. It's very material, “earthy”. 01:13:45 Eric Williams: Isn't hyperbole a prominent part of ancient rabbinic teaching styles? 01:28:06 Nicole: Thank you! 01:28:12 Scott: What if we end with the Sienfeld bass instead?  More positive! 01:28:59 Eric Williams: Instead of the Law and Order “bong”, just say “Pray, criminal!” for an appropriate level of jarring. ;)

Ep. 37 — A tumultuous childhood filled with displacement and abuse draws a healthcare expert to the psychology of human behavior / Nicole Fisher, President of Health and Human Rights Strategies. To say that Nicole Fisher's childhood was tumultuous would be an understatement. Fisher's world fell apart when she was two years old when she began to experience a pattern of psychological, and physical abuse by her mother. When her parents divorced, her dad won custody of Fisher and raised her with the help of loving relatives. But Fisher still endured years of brutal custody battles in which the courts often sided with her mother and ordered Fisher to visit her or even live with her, creating massive stress and uncertainty, fueled in large part by her mother’s unpredictable behavior. “There were many times, she was so loving, and kind, and affectionate, and there were other times she was the opposite. And I think that actually at its core, is part of that underlying instability,” say Fisher. “It wasn't just, whether my grandma was picking me up from school, or my aunt, or I was going to walk home with cousins, I think it was really, not knowing which sort of personality you were going to get, and that instability . . . really created a need for me, to have predictability in my life, and to understand, why, what were those triggers, what was within my control, what wasn't.” Her chaotic childhood left Fisher with a deep hunger to understand the human psyche. She has devoted her career to working on issues of health and human rights, homelessness and hunger through her consulting firm, Health and Human Rights Strategies. Fisher soon realized that the poor and underprivileged in the U.S. confront many of the same issues as those in the developing world. This chasm between the haves and have nots in America has only come into sharper relief with #Coronavirus. In a strange way, the #Covid-19 pandemic has brought Fisher full circle to her own history of displacement, and resilience. Transcript Download the PDF Chitra Ragavan: Nicole Fisher's world fell apart when she was two years old, and she began to experience psychological, and physical abuse by her mother. Fisher's dad worked three jobs, and despite his best efforts, had little idea how to bring up a daughter, but he had the help of her grandparents, and many other relatives. Her chaotic childhood left Fisher with a deep hunger to understand people, and a passion for health and human rights. Hello everyone, I'm Chitra Ragavan, and this is When it Mattered. This episode is brought to you by Goodstory, an advisory firm helping technology startups, find their narrative. My guest today is Nicole Fisher, President of the consulting firm, Health & Human Rights Strategies. Fisher is a global health and policy contributor to Forbes, and the founder and curator of the think tank, A Seat at the Table. Nicole, welcome to the podcast. Nicole: Thank you for having me. Chitra Ragavan: Well, to say that you had a rough childhood, is a bit of an understatement. Tell us what happened. Nicole: Sure. It's not something I talk about very often, but yes, my childhood was, I think tumultuous, is a word. I had a wonderful family, a very big loving family, but my parents got divorced, for good reason, when I was very young, and there was, as you mentioned, some psychological and physical abuse. It went on for years, and so my dad got custody of me at two. We moved to be near his family. I was born in Louisiana, but we moved to Missouri, where his family was. And over the years, there were lots of custody battles, lots of court dates, lots of instances of having to choose which parent to live with. I of course chose my father, but the courts' system really believed, particularly back in those days, that children, girls in particular, should be with their mother. And I respect the mindset, and yet we had a loving... My father is the greatest guy in the world,

Today's podcast we are talking with Nicole Nusshag. A Mother Explains Her Experience between Mommy and Me Swim Lessons vs Infant Swim Lessons. She is a mother who started her daughter off in a mommy and me swim lessons and then learned about infant swim. After learning about infant swim lessons and getting her daughter involved and skilled. She moved to Arizona and realized that she still had the need from these lessons and there was nobody around that was able to teach so she took it into her own hand and became an Infant Swim Instructor. Listen to this episode as Nicole a Mother explains the difference between these two types of classes and what you should consider and why? Rick: "There's a lot more that goes into this, then just say going down to the local YMCA and learning how to swim.""Nicole: As soon as a child is old enough to roll over on land, they're old enough to be able to be taught to roll over in the water." Rick: A Mommy and Me Class - So a 30 minute class on individual instruction with the instructor. How much time was the instructor actually spending with you and your baby? Nicole:One-on-one? Maybe two minutes if that. Rick:So, you're paying for a 30-minute class and getting two minutes' worth of instruction. Nicole: But with me, it's 10 minutes. I'm working the entire time, the child, we'll be tired after the 10 minutes like they're done. And there are some kids that, they're done at say seven or eight minutes, they're just done and we have to call it. It was a good productive lesson that day, and the reason why the lessons are so short is that they get tired. Rick: Welcome to DW nation, everyone. This is your host, Rick Kauffman with the drowning warrior podcast. We've got a guest here with us today. We're actually going to be talking to an infant swim specialist actually with Aqua babies survival swim school. And this is Nicole Nusshag and she is in Vail or otherwise a suburb of Tucson, Arizona. So if you're familiar with the Tucson, Arizona, that area, I'm sure you're aware of the climate, the type of homes, everything like that. So it's summer, I would say almost all year except for today. Okay. So welcome Nicole and welcome to the drowning warrior podcast here today. Nicole: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Rick: Well, we're happy to have you. And actually we kind of met just kind of live, give a how we met you ran across one of our previous podcasts and then started looking into things and found me on social media and found a couple of our, you found our Facebook community, which is DW nation, which is a private community there. And you've engaged with us in that area. And then we'll you and I jumped on a really nice phone call with your daughter and as your daughter was the leader of that phone conversation, we had a really, really good time and I learned a lot about you and vice versa. So why don't you just take a moment, let our listeners know about a little bit about your background and how and what we're going to get into this survival swimming, you know, a conversation, but how you really got involved in that. Nicole: Okay. Yeah. So, Nicole: I grew up swimming around pools and lakes and rivers. I grew up in Washington state, so there's water all over the place there. And that was just, that was part of our lifestyle was being in the water in the summertime. And when I had my first child in 2015, that's when it really started setting in the dangers of water and children. And I wanted to make sure that, that my child, now, you know, I have more than one now, but, but I wanted to make sure that they were going to be comfortable around the water, be able to swim. And kind of have the same lifestyle that I had, being able to enjoy the water in the hot weather or any time. So I started looking into getting her into swim lessons Nicole: Early on. She was four months old at the time when I,

 In this episode of the P100 Podcast, our hosts Paul, Dan and Logan welcome Nicole Chynoweth from the Carnegie Science Center to discuss the center’s new exhibit on mummies. From there we move on to the science of fear, and then on to hockey with their guest, Jeremy Church. This episode wraps up with a review of some unique Pennsylvania town names. We bet you have your favorites.----more----Full transcript here:Logan: You are listening to the P100 podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news culture and more because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the P100 Podcast, we're happy to have you back for another episode. I am Dan Stefano, I'm here with Logan Armstrong. Logan.Logan: How's it going?Dan: A pleasure to have you with us and Paul Furiga will be joining us in a little bit. Today's episode we're going to be talking about mummies. Not your mothers, not like that Logan. I see you, that's what you're thinking. No, just having a pleasant thought, thinking about dear old mom. No, Okay.Dan: Now, we're actually going to be talking about the mummies that you might think of whenever you think of ancient Egypt and other parts of the world here. There's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center - Mummies of the World, and we're really excited to talk with someone from the Science Center about that.Dan: Afterward, we're going to be discussing the science of fear. Keeping with us, somewhat of a Halloween type of theme here. Then, we're going to be talking about, what everybody knows, it's the beginning of hockey season. Logan, you excited about that?Logan: No. Dan: No. You're not excited about hockey. Okay. Well, I am and some other people in the office, and we're going to be talking with one of them about the growth of youth hockey in the region, which is really something that's taken off in the past few couple of decades here in Pittsburgh. And we're going to finish up with Logan and I being just as serious we are now. We're going to talk about strange Pennsylvania town names. So if you make it to the end, you're going to be in for treat on that one.Logan: Oh yeah. Stay tuned.Dan: Okay, so let's get going. All right guys, for this segment we're going to talk about mummies. In particular, mummies of the world, the exhibition. It's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center and from the Science Center, we have Nicole Chynoweth. Nicole, thanks for being here.Nicole: Thank you for having me.Dan: Absolutely. Thanks for being with us here. And can we talk a little bit about your own role within the Science Center here. Can you tell us your position and a little bit what you do?Nicole: Sure. So, I'm the manager of marketing, public relations, and social media with a focus on exhibits and the Rangos Giants Cinema.Dan: Great. What does that entail then? I mean, that I imagine you you are working with a lot of different positions there. Right?Nicole: Yeah, it's a really fun job. I get my hands in everything from new movies that we have coming out at the Rangos, educational films to the exciting new exhibits that we're bringing to the science center, from space topics, planetarium related things, and mummies-Dan: Really cool, it seems like a fun place to work. Right?Paul: Nicole, you've had your hands in the mummies?Nicole: No.Paul: Okay. The promotion of the mummies.Dan: The promotion of the mummies. Paul: I'm sure we'll talk about some of the technical aspects, but that would seem a little gross, but...Nicole: I don't think so. I find the exhibition more fascinating than I do creepy. And I'm not a fan of scary movies or I did not watch the Brendan Fraser mummy movie.Paul: You didn't?Nicole: No interest in that.Paul: I did watch those.Dan: You're missing out on a classic from the 1990s.Paul: Yeah. Well, classic is a little strong-Dan: I think it should have won an Oscar, but that's just me.Paul: Okay, Dan. We'll talk about that another time. So Nicole, when I think of the science center, I think about some of the other things you mentioned. Space, technology, mummies?Nicole: Yes, mummies are, especially this show, the mummies featured in Mummies of the World, the exhibition is, have so much to offer in terms of scientific, anatomical, biological information that we can still learn from today. So what I find really exciting about the mummies of the world is that it focuses on both natural mummification and intentional mummification. So, you might be more familiar with intentional mummification. That's the type that was [crosstalk 00:04:15] practicing in ancient Egypt. Correct.Nicole: And we do have some examples of Egyptian mummification in the show, but this also takes a look at the natural mummification process that can happen when conditions are at such a level moisture wise, temperature-wise that is able to naturally mummify a body, be it animal or human.Dan: Right. Well, it sounds like some pretty amazing things to see...Paul: Yeah, it's fascinating.Dan: What are some examples maybe of the intended mummification that we'd see there? I mean, is there anything from, I guess everybody knows about Egyptian mummies but then, they're also South American. What else might you see?Nicole: So an interesting example of the intentional mummification process that aside from like the Egyptian mummies that are featured in the show, there is Mumab, also known as the Maryland Mummy. In the nineties, two scientists at the University of Maryland decided that they wanted to try their hand at an Egyptian mummification process. A man had donated his body to science, and so they started the process of mummifying him. So, you can see Mumab in the show.Nicole: That's just an interesting way of seeing how we are still learning thousands and thousands of years later about how this process works and the tools that they had to use to complete the process and what the body has to go through for mummification to occur.Dan: That's really cool.Paul: Did it work?Nicole: I've been told that it's still in process, it's not completely... He's not completely mummified yet.Paul: Take some time?Nicole: Yes.Paul: Wow. Something I never knew.Dan: That's pretty awesome. Can you tell us what else is in the exhibit then? I mean, are there any, you say interactive portions to it. What should people and families expect whenever they're inside here. It's not just, as you'd be at a museum taking a look. I mean one of the great things about the science center is it kind of hands-on.Paul: Hands-on. Yeah.Nicole: Yes. So in addition, to the 40 animal and human mummies and 85 rare related artifacts, visitors will also be able to look through several interactives related to different topics within mummification. I think a favorite among children will definitely be the, what does mummy feel like a station where you can touch different types of mummified materials, so there's like frog skin, fur. Mummified fur, different things like that they'll be able to touch these like textile panels that are examples of what those things feel like.Nicole: Another great interactive is there's a large map that shows where different types of mummies have been found all over the world, which I think is really important to look at from the perspective of which, like you said, we are so used to just thinking about Egyptian mummies.Paul: Yes.Nicole: And really there are mummies all over the world, [crosstalk 00:07:15].Paul: So not to be surprised?Nicole: Yeah.Paul: You never know where you might find a mummy!Nicole: Right, right.Dan: Okay. Well, people will hear, we can see Mummies of the World through April 19th that's correct, right?Nicole: Correct. Open through April 19th. It takes about 60 to 90 minutes to get through the exhibition, for parents that are maybe wondering if the exhibition is appropriate for their children. We do have a family guide available at carnegiesciencecenter.org/mummies, that might answer some of the questions parents have before they take their kids to the exhibition.Nicole: But I really believe that it is appropriate for all ages and I think people will take something away from the show, be it a new interest in archeology or anthropology or just being able to connect with the backstories of the mommies that are featured in the show. You get to know them. They're more than just a mummy in front of you. You learn their story, how they lived, the way they lived, where they were from. So, super excited to have it at the science center and to be able to offer this experience to Pittsburghers.Dan: That's great. Anything else happen at the science center lately?Nicole: Yes. So, it's Halloween season.Dan: Yes.Nicole: What better time than to experience a scary movie on Pittsburgh's largest screen?Paul: Very good.Nicole: The Rangos Strengths Cinema teamed up with Scare House, this year actually for Rangos x Scare House. We co-curated some Halloween movies together to offer Pittsburgh a really exciting lineup for the Halloween seasons. So we have coming up the Universal Studios Classic Monsters. We're showing the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Frankenstein and Dracula, on October 11th through the 13th.Nicole: We also have Dawn of the Dead 3D showing October 25th and the 26th. And that's a really exciting screening because they don't often show the 3D version. So if you've seen Dawn the Dead before, I can guarantee you have not seen it like this.Dan: This is the original one?Nicole: Yes. This is the original Dawn of the dead. Yes.Paul: In 3D.Nicole: In 3D.Paul: Have you seen it, Nicole?Nicole: I have not seen it. I'm not a huge fan of the scary movies, but I've been told that if there's one I should experience at the Rangos this year. It's probably this one.Dan: All right? Just how big again is the Rangos?Nicole: So we are a certified giant screen. The screen itself measures 72 by 38 feet.Paul: Wow.Nicole: We also have 45 surround sound speakers. Your average theater has 14.Paul: Dan, if you and I can get that past our spouses and into our basements. I think that'll be good.Dan: I might have to tear down a wall or two in my basement, but I think I can handle it.Paul: You know, it's all about the purpose, Dan.Dan: You know what, we're trying to fix more damage to begin with. So I think I could get this Rangos a screen down here. That'd be perfect.Paul: It'd be very nice.Dan: Nicole, how can people find out more about the Carnegie Science Center, both online and in social media?Nicole: Sure. Visit us at carnegiesciencecenter.org or find us on Facebook. Carnegie Science Center or Twitter and Instagram @Carnegie S-C-I-C-T-R.Dan: Okay. Thanks so much for coming on Nicole. We appreciate it.Nicole: Thank you.Paul: Yes.Dan: All right guys. We were just talking about mummies and now we're going to... mummies, if you'll look back at it, they're famous movie monsters, some of the old ones from the 30s, some of the more recent mummy movies and whatnot.Paul: Brendan Fraser.Dan: Exactly, yeah. I love those horror movies and I love being scared. I love this time of year whenever we get a chance to go out to a haunted house. Me and my wife try to do one at least once a year. She's not wild about them, but I have a great time. Even right now in a couple of days. I believe the scare house is going to be reopening the scare houses. One of the more popular attractions around the area of this third winter.Paul: Award-winning.Dan: Award-winning, correct. Yeah. They had to move from Etna and they're in the Strip District. I think they maybe even changed the name to reflect that, but I think, it's interesting that people love to go to these things and they're so well attended.Dan: You see the lines around the block just to be scared and so I've had a chance to go look at the psychology of fear here, and there's an interesting phenomenon that researchers have found called VANE. It's V-A-N-E, and it stands for Voluntary Arousing Negative Experiences. Logan or Paul, you guys ever felt anything like that? Do you have any voluntary experiences?Paul: Yes. Dan, some people call that work?Dan: No. Yes.Paul: I've absolutely. So, I mean, I'm the old guy in the room. You think back to when I was a teenager, the voluntary arousing negative experience was to take the date you really like to a scary movie.Dan: Okay.Paul: I think we're going to get into this Dan, some of the why this is in... Things that people will voluntarily do you, you might not have expected a certain level of affection from your date, but if you took her to a scary movie, there would be the involuntary reaction when something happened on the screen of-Dan: Them getting closer? There you go. That's clever.Paul: Yeah. Well, and it's all this time at least all the scary movies.Dan: I think, when you look at some of the research here, what they point at, one of the most important parts of that is that it `is voluntary and that people were making a conscious decision to go out and be scared. And a lot of that is about overcoming stress. And you might go in with another person, you're working together to try to get through this shared experience here, fighting the monsters, try not to punch the actors who are just trying to have a good time and scare you.Dan: But they get a chance to get outside of themselves, and as we said, face a fear and there's really a great quote here from a woman named Justine Musk. Her quote says, "Fear is a powerful beast, but we can learn to ride it". I think that's just a very good succinct way to put it. But our good friend Logan here, you were actually a psychology major for a couple of years at Pitt and you know a lot about fear.Logan: Yes. So, as you said, I was a psychology major for a few years. I really enjoy just kind of how humans work. But so basically what it is that you have a part of your brain and it's a little almond-shaped lobe called a medulla. But, so basically what happens is that you're, when you see emotions on people's faces or when you see something that would cause you to emote in a certain way.Logan: So, say you see you're out in the wild and you see a lion and you're like, well that's not good. So that message sends to your medulla, which then sends to your limbic system. And if you guys are aware of the limbic system, it's your fight or flight response.Dan: Yes, okay.Logan: When you experience these negative arousals, that kicks into high gear and that pumps adrenaline through your entire body, your pupils dilate, your bronchitis dilates, just you're in this hyper-aware zone, and that's where adrenaline junkies get it from.Logan: It's a similar thing to where you're experiencing fear where you might be scared, but your adrenaline is pumping so much and it's releasing so many endorphins and dopamine that you end up enjoying it.Dan: Well. Okay, now we know whenever we either go to a haunted house or if we go see the mummies exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center, none of us are going to be scared because we know all the science, and we just know what's going on in our brain.Paul: Well, I mean this is also why people like roller coasters shout out to the steel curtain at Kennywood. Because they know it's safe. Right?Dan: Right.Paul: The experience is scary, but it's safe. When you go and see a movie. Yes. You sure hope so. You see the movie, you know it's going to be an hour and 20 minutes or two hours or whatever and when it's over, you may have been scared during the movie, but you're okay. The same with the rollercoaster, three minutes and then you're back in line, right it again. Right? Because you've enjoyed that safe experience of being scared.Logan: And it's the same concept where it's going back to my earlier example. If you see a lion in the wild or you're going to be scared. But if you go to the zoo, you're going to think it's cute or whether somebody else tickles you, you get a reaction, but you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's not a threat.Dan: Well, we do see a lot of alligators on the streets of Pittsburgh these days, so I don't know. You know what I mean. Maybe we'll see a lion the next, but I don't know that's all there is to know about fear or at least a good introduction for it. So, yeah. Logan, thanks for the knowledge there.Logan: Sure thing.Dan: Yeah. Maybe you should have stayed as a psychology major.Paul: He won't be here helping us today.Dan: That's a fair point.Logan: Now he's like "you really should've stayed a psych major"Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires. As we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At Word Wright, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency. We understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: Word Wright helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process, visit wordpr.com to uncover your capitalist story.Paul: All right guys. It's a fun time of year because the penguins are back in action. We're all hoping that they can get back to the Stanley cup this year. Who better to have on our vice president Jeremy Church here at one of our vice presidents here at WordWrite. Jeremy, you're involved with hockey and can you tell us a little bit about that?Jeremy: Sure. I've been fortunate to be involved with the game for nearly 40 years now as a player and a coach. Grew up starting about eight I guess in Michigan. Then we moved here in 10 continued to play, went away to prep school and played all through prep school Junior A, was fortunate enough again to play in college and then the last 17 years at various levels. I've been able to coach.Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, Who do you coach with?Jeremy: Right now, I'm coaching my younger son. With 11 Hornets, youth hockey organization. Prior to that, I helped with the high school in Mount Lebanon for five years. Coached at Shady Side Academy for a year and again using the word fortunate was able to go back to the Prep school. I played at Culver Military Academy and coached there for six years and it's a pretty storied program.Paul: That's fair and awesome. Well, Pittsburgh's got a long history in hockey going back to the turn of the century here, pretty much and but from a lot of people, the history and hockey didn't start until Mario Lemieux got here in the early eighties and Jeremy have a fun story about Mario Lemieux actually.Jeremy: I do. There've been two big booms locally when it comes to the growth of the sport. And certainly the first one had to have been when Merrill was drafted back in 1984 so we had just moved here from outside of Detroit and moved to the South Hills and we went to South Hills village one day and the mall was still there. At the time it was Kaufman's Department Store, which is no longer there.Paul: Oh yeah, the mall's there now just no Kaufmann's.Jeremy: So we're walking through and there's a little table set up and there are two or three people sitting there, one of them towers over all the others. And as we get closer and closer, there's no line at all. Mind you, it's Mario Lemieux sitting there signing autographs before he'd ever played a game.Jeremy: So, we walked up to the table, got his autograph. He still really couldn't speak English that well. But if you could imagine today the kind of stir it would create if Mario were around talking at to anyone in any environment. It was the exact opposite back then. I still have the autograph today.Paul: What did you get autographed?Jeremy: They had little teeny pamphlets of him in his Junior A Laval and from the Quebec Major Junior League Jersey, and that's all they had to sign. I think it was him. And it might've been Paul Steigerwald because at the time he was head of showing Mario around town and Mario, for those who don't remember when he was 18 actually lived with a host family in Mount Lebanon for the first year that he was here when he was 18.Paul: Yeah. Well, like I said it, whenever he first got here, he lived with Lemieux.Jeremy: Yeah, he returned the favor.Paul: Well, since that day, whenever there was no line at Kauffman's, today there was no more Kauffman's and you would have a gigantic line. But so what can you say about just seeing the growth of hockey? Especially from a youth hockey angle here, you've been front and center with it your entire life?Jeremy: It's pretty remarkable. Doing a little research earlier and in 1975 there were basically two rinks that you could play out of indoor rinks for Youth Hockey: Rostraver Gardens, which is still around and Mount Lebanon Recreation Center, which is still around.Jeremy: By 1990, when I was in high school, there were 10 and now that figure is roughly doubled to around 20 in the region. There are 62 high school teams and there are 28 organizations in the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League. And within the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League, there are now 5,600 players. And that's for those who are around playing in the eighties or growing up in the eighties and early nineties here, that's almost hard to believe there's, you know that there are 28 organizations, but if you go down through the ranks of 18 and under 16 and under 14, 12, ten eight and under age groups, there's dozens and dozens of teams at various levels all throughout that.Jeremy: So, for last year at the ten-year level, ten-year-old level, there were 80 plus 10 new teams in PAHL, Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League League. So pretty remarkable.Paul: Right, Yeah. The majority of those kids, they're probably not going to be heading to the NHL, but a lot of kids want to at least, pretend that they're one of their heroes and get involved in the game. And I think one of the problems, maybe not a problem with hockey, but one of the issues surrounding it is there is a perception that there is a bit of a barrier to entry. You've got to have skates, you've got to have pads, you've got to have a good helmet, you've got to have a good stick. There's a lot of, there's a lot to that kit there. Jeremy, there are easier ways for kids to get involved in the game today though, right?Jeremy: Yes. Part of the Testament to the Penguins organization and certainly as Sidney Crosby has been, his emphasis and involvement with youth programs and youth hockey initiatives. And not just in Pittsburgh, but I know as well back when he returns to Canada in the summer and throughout the year, he likes to give back to the community.Jeremy: But a big initiative that started, it's now celebrating it's 10 year anniversary or 11 year anniversary is the little Penguins learn to play hockey, where Sid partnered with Dick's sporting goods to give, what is now I believe more than a thousand sets of free equipment out to kids who want to start playing the sport. So that goes hand in hand with a program that I think runs six weeks, eight weeks, in January, February to get kids introduced to hockey.Jeremy: But to your point in that, the big barrier to entry is the cost of equipment, which can be several hundred dollars even for kids that are five, six, seven years old. So that's certainly got a lot of kids involved in the game and has led to those massive increases in participation that I cited before.Paul: All right, that's awesome, Jeremy. Well, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about hockey. We're hoping for another good season from the Penguins. Maybe a longer playoff run than last year. We got a bit of a break last year. I think they earned it after winning a couple of cups. But yeah, thanks again and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.Jeremy: No problem. Thanks to you.Dan: Right. This next segment. We're going to learn a little more about our co-host Logan Armstrong. Logan is from Eighty Four, PA.Logan: That I am.Dan: Now, we got talking about this and it got us, we started, you know, going down a rabbit hole and we got discussing why 84 was actually named 84? At first, I thought it was named after the construction company the-Logan: 84 Lumber.Dan: Yeah, 84 Lumber, and it turns out I was wrong. That 84 is named after 84 PA, and there's a lot of history and a lot of different theories about how the town was named. Logan, do you want to go through some of them maybe?Logan: Yeah, sure. So there are a couple theories. 84 is quite the town. There's not much in it other than 84 Lumber, but you know, it's nice. There are a lot of theories on how it was named, the most popular of which is that it commemorated Grover Cleveland's 1884 election victory. Some other theories were that it's on mile 84 of the railway mail service. My favorite though is that it's located at 80 degrees and four minutes West longitude. This seems like the most probable to me.Dan: My favorite actually is apparently in 1869 general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton had an outfit of 84 soldiers with them and held off an attack of Outlaws. Now that just sounds fantastic. Yeah.Logan: That sounds quite heroic. If that is the case. I am proud to be from 84 PA.Dan: Maybe you're a descendant of general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton here. Is that possible?Logan: Yeah. I believe I'm Logan "Crazy Toes" Armstrong.Dan: Okay, keep your shoes on man! We don't want to see anything. Well, after this, after we talked about 84 we also started taking a look at some other weird names for towns in Pennsylvania here and if you go online, you can find quite a few of them. Logan, what were some of the interesting ones you like you?Logan: There are quite a few to choose from. A couple of my favorites were, while the all known intercourse, PA, which is actually the most stolen sign in Pennsylvania, where it says "Welcome to Intercourse" for good reason.Dan: Obvious reasons.Logan: Right. Going along that same route, a rough and ready PA was, they named it after a California Gold Rush town, so I guess they're rough and ready to get some gold out there. Can't blame them for that.Dan: I imagine that sign is also been stolen many times.Logan: Right. Okay. Then, well, let's play a game here. I'm going to give you some Pennsylvania town names and you're going to tell me how you think that those names came to be. How's that sound?Dan: Bring them on. I'm a repository of knowledge.Logan: Okay, great. Peach Bottom.Dan: Peach Bottom. This is simple. This is extremely simple. Everybody in the town of Peach Bottom is very short, and they're, but they're also Peach farmers, so they can only see the bottom of the peaches that come from the trees. It's kind of a shame because they've never seen the peach tops.Logan: That is a shame. Those peach tops are so beautiful.Dan: We have an actual reason why it's called Peach Bottom?Logan: In fact, Dan, you weren't too far off, Peach Bottom. Got its name in 1815 from a peach orchard owned by a settler named John Kirk.Dan: John Kirk was very short, as we all know.Logan: Right? Yes. Okay. Shickshinny, Pennsylvania. What do you think of that?Dan: Schickshinny. Ah, got it. Okay. Shickshinny is named after a famous dance created by the person who created Schick shaving blades. Fun fact, a few people realize that he had a dance. Whenever he would cut his face on his old rusty blades, he would do a little jig-Logan: A little jig!Dan: In a big thing because it can... to get the pain away, and so he decided I've got to create a better, more comfortable blade and so he created the Schick shaving blade.Logan: Well, I foresee-Dan: Everybody knows this.Logan: I've foreseen the future...We had the Whip, we had the Nae Nae. Next, we're going to have the Shickshinny going on in all the clubs in Pittsburgh.Dan: I think this one is actually one of those Indian words that have made a lot of Pennsylvania names here.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an Indian word that either means the land of mountains or land of the fine stream.Dan: Or land of the cutting your face on your favorite razor.Logan: Yeah, I think that's the most common translation. Yeah.Dan: Sure.Logan: We are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at P100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Twitter @Pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news updates and more, from the Pittsburgh 100.

Jaha: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show, Nicole Simmons. I am so excited to have you here today. Nicole: Thank you. Me too. I’m very excited. Jaha: So, I’m going to ask you some... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, other content, and more! ]]

Why AZ Nicole Smith Description Welcome to Why Arizona! Today your host, Zachary Hall, had the pleasure of sitting down with Nicole Justine Smith, Miss Arizona USA 2018. We’re diving into: - The experience of being crowned Miss Arizona USA 2018 - Coming Up Short 6 Times Before Winning - What it’s like to represent the state of Arizona - Having Perseverance In Hard Times - Leading By Example - Life Changing Experiences - Goals for the Future - Getting to Give Back to Your Community - How to connect with Nicole Thank you for listening! Don’t forget to “Like” and Subscribe! Who would you like to see featured on our show? Let us know at: whyarizona@renzlermedia.com For Partnerships with Nicole: www.missarizonausa.com Follow Nicole’s Personal Account on Instagram: @thenicolejsmith https://www.instagram.com/thenicolejsmith/ Follow the Miss Arizona Instagram Account: @missazusa https://www.instagram.com/missazusa/ Follow Zach on FB and Insta @zacharyhall www.instagram.com/zacharyhall/ Check out everything on the Renzler Media Podcast Network at: http://www.Renzler1.com

Most people think that the only way to go through separation is by hiring a family lawyer, going to court and letting the judge decide who gets what. No so! In this interview, Nicole Quallen shares her perspective on respectful, out-of-court resolutions available for separating couples. Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Website:  https://www.twofamilieslaw.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/twofamilieslaw/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwoFamiliesLaw Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/10651550/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Transcript: Christina: Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Nicole Quallen. Nicole is a mediator and non-traditional family lawyer in Durham, North Carolina. The non-traditional component of her practice is that she has limited herself to entirely out-of-court resolution for her clients. Her law firm is called Two Families Law, and she helps separating couples build two healthy families through negotiated separation agreements, mediation, and collaborative law. I think that you'll find the discussion with Nicole really inspiring. The conversation with Nicole will really provide you a lot of hope, if you're going through separation because she explains the various processes that she has available for clients to help them sort out their issues without going to court. The different processes involve different levels of support, depending on what the clients need. Nicole is a passionate advocate for respectful family resolution. I think you're gonna enjoy this interview. Here we go. Christina: Welcome Nicole! I'm so happy that I have you here with me today. Nicole: Thank you, Christina! And I'm so glad to be talking to you, too. Christina: I'm particularly excited to have you on because you take such a positive approach to the experience of divorce, with your focus on resolution rather than inflammation. And I'm wondering if we can just start out by having you talk a little bit about yourself and what brought you to family law. Nicole: Sure! Well, yeah, family law really found me. I actually didn't even take family law in law school. I but went through a divorce. My second and third year of law school. And found myself after graduation with an offer from a local family law firm that seemed to speak to me. So I went right there  and sort of hit the ground running at a very, what I would call a traditional family law litigation firm here in North Carolina where I was, you know, I think I took a deposition on my third day there. And I stayed there for about two years, and I, say I loved-hated it. I loved the working with families, I loved that it just being in that, that really sacred inner space of family, and I loved the intellectual challenge of it. But I hated feeling emotionally drained. And I ultimately left that practice feeling that I wasn't actually helping these families. That's what I wanted to do, and was trying to do. But I often felt like that the trials that end... that's what most of our families are going through were court cases. And I felt like they were not being served; that they were leaving core really with a lot of trauma that to us, and I felt really conflicted about it and left. And I actually locked the law altogether for about three years. Christina: Oh, wow! Nicole: Yeah, I moved to New York City and started working in the, the non-profit sector. I thought it was sort of my penance. I thought the law is not for me, I'm not meant to be a lawyer, you know. There's something about the law that felt so good, but you just thought 'I just can't do it'. And then slowly, kept creeping back into law and family law in particular. Friends would be going through separation and would ask for my help. And quickly once I started doing that work on my own, I realized I still love family law, I wanna help these families. I just wanna do it in my own way. I know there's gotta be a way. And so, about two years ago is when I started my own practice where I work with families exclusively out of court. Christina: OK, that's fascinating. Well, I can totally relate to the love-hate part of the traditional family law model. My experience was very similar – that I loved working directly with families and having the impact in such an important part of people's lives. But the actual litigation process was so traumatic that I, too left for a different take on the whole process. Why don't we talk a little bit about how you do that out-of-court process now? What are the options for clients? And yeah, what does that look like? Nicole: Yeah, great question. I'm always reading about how you do it too, and I know there are different ways in different states and countries. So in North Carolina, I usually give my clients, when they come to see me at a consult. I boil down that out-of-court process here into three possibilities. One is mediation, which is you know, traditionally what you would think of and where I would serve as a mediator. So I'm trained as a mediator, I would sit down with both of the spouses and be really a guide communication-wise, where I'm trying to help them to have the discussions they need to resolve all of the issues of their marital estate – custody of their children, if they have it, division of all their assets and debts, and then any support payments that need to go from one party to the other. And in mediation in North Carolina actually, I know this is different than what you're able to do Christina. Here, as a mediator, I'm not allowed to draft anything for the parties. So I guide them to the decisions, and then they need to go to a third party attorney and turn that into what here is a separation agreement, which is a fully legally binding private contract, and forcible in court, but you don't have to go there if, you know, as long as everyone abides by the terms you never need to go to court. So that's, that's mediation. Christina: OK, so let me ask you a quick question about that. When they hire the third party attorney and assuming that that attorney still only represents one client, so do they have to go from mediation sort of into the adversarial process to get the draft, negotiate it and complete it? Nicole: Yeah, you're right in that assumption. It's really... I mean mediators, we don't like that process. So yes,  they will go to an attorney and that attorney can only represent one party. In all of the cases that I have done, only one party has ever hired the attorney. And that attorney really works as sort of a scribe, and they are putting into writing what the parties have agreed on. And I think, you know, if you've done a good job in mediation then hopefully everyone agrees by that time. But there's certainly exactly the possibility that, you know, everyone thought they agreed in mediation and then when the attorney drafts it up, that one party says 'Uh-uh'. And then yes, you can be right back into a litigation [inaudible]. What I would tell folks is, if something happens in that draft that doesn't look good to you, come back to mediation and we'll try to resolve it there. Which actually has never happened to me. I think attorneys who do that drafting hopefully, you know, have a good idea of how to translate the sort of summary we give them in mediation to an agreement. Christina: Oh, good. What I sometimes see is that, well I don't see that very often because here I am alone to do the drafting. But what I've seen in the past is that people can take a mediated agreement to one lawyer to draft and then when the other person goes to get independent legal advice. Then you've got the two attorneys on board, who are now sort of inflaming a conflict that didn't seem to really exist before. And they seem to be on board in mediation and then it goes a little bit sideways with the two attorneys on board. Nicole: Exactly. You know, I think that I'm mostly able to avoid that because I have relationships with some attorneys who respect and also participate in the mediation process. So when they get the agreement, they don't really want to inflame. But yes, totally. I mean, that's how just exactly like our experience over here which is that as soon as you got two attorneys – two litigation-minded attorneys – involved no matter how much the parties have come to a resolution, you just... you never know what's gonna get brought up. Christina: And so tell us a little bit about collaborative law. I understand you're quite involved in the collaborative law process. Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So yes, we are talking a little bit about the options and one is mediation. The second one is sort of a negotiated separation agreement, which we'll talk about later. And the third is what is called in our statutes, collaborative law. In North Carolina, we got it in 2003, I think. And a good amount of the states have a collaborative law statute. And so here's the process, it's super cool. In collaborative law, both parties need to hire an attorney who is trained and ideally experienced in collaborative law. And everyone signs a pledge saying, 'We pledge to work through the legal issues of our divorce together. We pledge not to file a lawsuit and to go to court. We are honest and we're gonna disclose, you know, all of our finances, you know like what you do in court. And then everyone meets in... we come four-way conferences, but you meet in these conferences, or both attorneys and both parties get in the same room. And you talk through issue by issue and we do it in a way where the goal is not for each party to get sort of, you know, the best they can get, the most money. But with an eye towards having two successful individuals and successful children going forward to a workable fair agreement. So the hallmarks of that are that you sign this pledge saying you're not gonna go to court, which doesn't mean you can't. If the process fails, the parties can go to court, the attorneys cannot. So when the attorney signs that pledge, that's it. And the parties, they can go to court, they'd need new attorneys. Yes, so that's the basis of the process. And the other hallmark of the process is that you can hire what we call financial neutrals or child specialist neutrals, to come and join the process. You know, traditionally in litigation, you hire, each side may hire a child psychologist to come and testify about what's in the best interest of the child, and you know, why one parent is miserable and one is wonderful, or what not. And in collaborative, both parties would agree to use one – either child specialist or financial specialist. We use those when folks have you know, complicated finances, businesses, you know tons of real estate properties, or something like that. We have these awesome financial specialists who are trained in collaborative divorce, who can come in and give really good advice about how to make smart financial decisions. Christina: Yeah, I think that's a real benefit to have the parties choose one professional who they trust. And then you use that as a basis for the discussion of how to make their decisions. Nicole: It makes all the difference. If you think about it with, I mean, I'm sure in litigation you saw dueling child specialists. And if you have one doctor saying, 'Mom is a great parent and Dad is, you know, really damaging this child,' and the other '...and Dad has one of the opposite.' It's like... very difficult to get past that. You know. Christina: Yeah, so one of the benefits that I saw when I was practicing collaborative law was that it gave both people the comfort of still having somebody sort of on their side, even though it is meant to be a team approach. So that's one of the benefits that I see of collaborative law over mediation that some people really like to feel like they've got somebody looking out for their interests and protecting them. What would you say are some of the other benefits of the process? Nicole: Yeah, that's great. Everyone has an [inaudible]. So the benefits... the first benefit that always comes to mind in collaborative law versus, you know, sort of court is that you are avoiding the trauma of a trial. The benefits of having the third party neutrals there. The biggest benefit I think about is that lots of other types of divorce settlements can leave you feeling 'OK, you are satisfied in the moment', and then long term, they might break down or you might start to question 'Did I get a good deal?', 'Did I make a bad deal?'. And I think collaborative is the most protective process where people who leave that process when you have sat in on these sessions, you know, and we do four, five, six sessions. I think everyone leaves feeling like 'I put it all out there. I listened to everything, you know, my spouse had to say. I really understand what we came to'. I think there, you know, agreements that people feel really invested in and are much less likely to breakdown over time. So I think that's an emotional benefit you get. And then depending on how you do it, collaborative divorce is almost always cheaper than going to court. Christina: Would you say that's because it generally resolves faster? Nicole: Well, I think... I think collaborative divorce for me any way tugs in more expenses than mediation. But I think discovery in a traditional trial where both parties are, you know, requesting just scads of documents and hiring a private investigator – that process. What I saw in my practice is that that process alone costs 10, 20 plus thousands of dollars. Because you're preparing for everything that could go wrong and you're leaving no stone unturned, versus in collaborative divorce, we send our clients a list and say, 'OK...' you know I have my clients put things on drop boxes and say, 'OK. This is what you need. You need to turn a roll on these documents...' and they upload them themselves. So that's, you know, virtually a free process. And then yes, again I would say they resolve more quickly than the full negotiation process of a trial, you know, from start to finish. And those in North Carolina take, probably an average of a year – often more. Christina: Hmm, it's pretty similar here. (…) Are you able to able to get involved with families at  different stages of separation? Do you ever have clients come to you for collaborative law who, maybe started in litigation and then they decide what's not the route for them? Nicole: Yeah, interesting. I'd love to hear your answer on this too. So, I think it's the very best if you can go collaborative first, because like we talked about where you meet with a litigator and they start to scare you. It's hard to undo that fear, I think? I've done a bunch of consults with folks who are in the litigation process; they're really unhappy. They come to me and they want to try collaborative. But I find it those folks who have trouble getting their spouse on board. So I think it's hard to go back from the path of litigation. I've done it a couple of times where... I guess in one case, one of the parties lost their attorney so they  were willing to try. So the answer is I think it's far better to do at the beginning and I... I'm willing to work with people in any part of the process. I just find it's hard to get them out of the litigation track once they're there. Christina: Yeah, that's interesting. So when I was practicing law for the collaborative files that I did, they were for clients who came in pretty much the beginning of their separation and made a conscious choice that's how they wanted to handle the whole transition. I don't think I had any people come in after they have started litigation. And I think you're right that you can't go back from that. Litigation really brings out the worst in people, right? Like you said about getting an expert to say the other party is just a terrible parent and traumatizing the child and... I mean, sometimes sure, that does happen and maybe true but for the most part, the adversarial process of trying to put your own case forward and trying to destroy the other person's case – particularly when they're parents. It's something that people have difficulty having just real conversations with each other after that. Nicole: Yeah, totally. And you can totally see why, I mean, it would be very difficult attacking someone's parenting is so personal. Yeah. So that's why yeah, I totally agree. Anybody I hear who even has a whisper of divorce I say, 'Let me give you a free consult please! Please talk to me before you talk to a litigator.' Because even... and you know, litigators are doing their best in their doing, and pour into work and that I don't think that they're all awful by any means. But it's just a different process, like you said it's completely adversarial. And once you start it, it's really hard to go back. Christina: Right, I mean, the adversarial process was designed in a way that it's appropriate for people who never have to deal with each other again. So if you've got a car accident, and you're suing the person who hit you, or like a medical malpractice suit or something like that, where there's no need to protect the relationship. It's a great process, I get the information out there, and helps the judge get to the truth. But it is so inappropriate for family situations, particularly parents who will have to deal with each other for the rest of their lives. Nicole: Yeah. Completely agree. Christina: Do you have any advice for somebody who is looking at their options, how they can present the option of collaborative law to their spouse? Nicole: Yeah, I love that question. So I do this all the time, you know. I meet at a consult with only one of the spouses, and I do consults with both spouses too, plenty. But if I'm meeting with one spouse and they say, 'Well, I really want this but I'm not sure. My spouse is going to.' What I say to folks is 'OK, so the two main motivations to try to do something like collaborative mediation, separation agreement... the core of why I do this work is, you know, we want to preserve our co-parenting relationship, we don't wanna go through the trauma of court. All those sort of emotional and human factors. And then I say, 'And if that doesn't speak to your spouse, maybe because they're feeling afraid, vulnerable, you know plenty of good reasons that we could talk to if we got to a consultation. You know, and then I say that speaks to almost everybody is money. And I say, 'Tell your spouse that the average, you know, full custody and equitable distribution trial in North Carolina, the average trial cost is $37,000. Tell them that, tell them that they'll need you know, $2,000 a team or to hire an attorney. Tell them that I'll give you a free consultation and that most of my clients are out the door and under $3,000 and see if maybe they're willing to try it.' And one of those two methods seems to be pretty persuasive. And I also tell people that we just talk about which is don't wait. As soon as you feel comfortable having that talk, before your spouse goes to see a litigator, try to have the conversation. So... Christina: I think time is of the essence for sure. OK, so why don't you tell me about your negotiation process? Nicole: OK, so we talked about mediation and then the collaborative divorce. And actually, the bulk of my process is this third sort of funky process that I do that's the most popular and I think it's actually honestly workaround because I can't be like you do where I'm meeting with both parties and mediating the discussion and then drafting for them. And so what I'm doing with a lot of my clients is  I'm representing one of the parties, working with them to draft a separation agreement that covers all of their issues just like any other due process is. And then the other party sort of receives that agreement reviews it, maybe hires an attorney to review it. Maybe not. And then sign. And you know, there's something not ideal about that process because I can only represent one party. And I wish I could do what you did where I, you know, really work with both parties. And sometimes the other party will sit in on meetings and I have to make it, you know, very clear that I can represent them, and that I can advise them. But that they are, they are too sitting on it. And then I tell folks, 'OK, if the other party is gonna hire an attorney to review or to participate in this process, I really recommend that you work with another attorney who is collaboratively-trained, like I am, to avoid like we talked about inflaming and this sort of bringing up financial issues that might cost more on legal fees and whatever benefit a party. So that's actually the bulk of my process. And it's  a little, like I said... It's a little structurally funky, but it works for tons of people who come to my office, and they say 'We're separating.... We agree on you know, 70% of our issues... We need some help making them legal... We need some help thinking about things we might have missed. But you know, we definitely don't wanna go to court and we don't wanna start a big fight. So that's how a lot of those cases get wrapped up and it winds it being much more cost-effective to them. So I think they just don't need all of the support that the collaborative process provides because they really do agree in most issues. Christina: So, what is exciting in your business right now? Is there anything that you'd like to share that you think will be helpful for people? Nicole: Yeah. Man, I think this work is so exciting all the time! Something I'm sort of currently passionate about myself and the other collaborative practitioners in my community is that we want more attorneys to do this work. And I think that the client base is out there. I talk to litigators who I think is skeptical of that. But I have been doing this for less that two years. And I have just got clients after clients saying, 'I didn't know this was an option, I'm so glad you have this...' And in my one city of 250,000 people, there are two of us who practice collaborative law full time. And the other one, my mentor, is retiring. So I'm desperate to get more attorneys doing this work. I think collaborative attorneys... I think we have a lot less stress and some more job satisfaction; I think my clients are amazing. So, something I'm excited about is just spreading the word within the bar and trying to talk about how we can you know, just make collaborative divorce be a bigger portion of what's going on in family law. Christina: Hmm, there's the traditional view is that... Well, family law is just difficult and you'll eventually burn out. But I agree it's really great to be able to share the different methodologies where you can actually enjoy your work and feel like you're doing good and still be working with a professional. Nicole: Yeah, totally. I mean, I know you're a believer and you're leading the call here. But to me it just seems like night and day, as far as quality of life. So, yeah. And right in the different methodologies, actually I love doing all the continuing education that I do as a collaborative lawyer you know, just learning about conflict and psychology and human needs, and how people function rather than learning about you know, how to wire tap your access... cellphone to trying to like catch her doing whatever. That's just... it makes me happier and you know, better. Christina: Wiretapping is not your cup of tea! Nicole: Yeah, right! It just... It just doesn't quite feel like what I always wanted to do to make the world close. Christina: Oh, that's awesome. So what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they'd like to find out more? Nicole: Yeah so, my  practice is called Two Families Law, and my website is spelled out twofamilieslaw.com. I have a pretty active Facebook and Twitter page where I share ideas about collaborative law, conflict resolution, some of the reasons I do this work and stories from, like our community of collaborative professionals. So those are just great ways to follow about collaborative divorce. And then all my personal contact information is on my website and I'm just always too over-the-moon-happy to talk to anybody about the practice or why someone should either do this work or should try out the collaborative divorce. Christina: Oh that's fantastic! Well I think the people in your state are very lucky that you decided to come back to family law. Nicole: Thank you Christina! Christina: So thank you for being here today! You've shared lots of great information, and good luck with the building of the collaborative community! Nicole: Thanks, Christina! Hopefully, we talk again soon in lots of different ways.