Podcast appearances and mentions of bill well

This is a Vintage Selection from 2006The BanterThe Guys talk about a big change in NYC restaurant ownership as well as the implications of invasive grass.The ConversationThe Restaurant Guys welcome William Alexander to hear about the trials of being a home gardener and the shocking realization that his home-grown tomatoes cost him $64. The Inside TrackThe Guys have an amusing conversation with Bill discussing the battles with deer, groundhogs and the neighbor's cat.Bill: My latest battle was with the neighbor's cats who insisted on peeing on my organic lettuce. Mark:  That's still organic. Bill: Well, you know, I think I found a way to get, get even with them. I started to use their litter box. But I think the moral is that no matter what you do, animals are going to get into your garden because of the simple truth: You may be smarter, but they've got more time. -William Alexander on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2006BioWilliam Alexander, spent nearly four decades as director of technology at a psychiatric research institute.Having broken into writing with the critically-acclaimed, bestselling memoir The $64 Tomato, Bill wrote Ten Tomatoes that Changed the World. Bill has contributed over a dozen op-eds to the New York Times, where he has opined on such varied issues as Martha Stewart's release from prison, what the honeybee crisis means to the home gardener, the difficulties of being organic, and The Benefits of Failing at French, which achieved the distinction of being the most viewed, e-mailed, tweeted, and Facebook-ed article of the day.InfoWilliam's sitehttps://williamalexander.com/index.phpWilliam's bookThe $64 Tomato: How One Man Nearly Lost His Sanity, Spent a Fortune and Endured an Existential Crisis in the Quest for the Perfect GardenOn Friday, June 27 Come see The Restaurant Guys LIVE with Chef Andrew Zimmern at the New Brunswick Performing Arts Center in New Brunswick, NJ. VIP tickets include a Meet & Greet After-Party with Andrew. Restaurant Guys Regulars get a discount so subscribe https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe Tickets https://www.restaurantguyspodcast.com/ Our Sponsors The Heldrich Hotel & Conference Centerhttps://www.theheldrich.com/ Magyar Bankhttps://www.magbank.com/ Withum Accountinghttps://www.withum.com/ Our Places Stage Left Steakhttps://www.stageleft.com/ Catherine Lombardi Restauranthttps://www.catherinelombardi.com/ Stage Left Wineshophttps://www.stageleftwineshop.com/ To hear more about food, wine and the finer things in life:https://www.instagram.com/restaurantguyspodcast/https://www.facebook.com/restaurantguysReach Out to The Guys!TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com**Become a Restaurant Guys Regular and get two bonus episodes per month, bonus content and Regulars Only events.**Click Below!https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe

In this episode, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham explore the Automatic Transaction Quarantine feature with Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor, Bill Millar. Bill explains that this feature isolates transactions that could potentially cause system crashes, preventing them from impacting the entire container database. They also discuss the key advantages of automatic transaction quarantine in maintaining database stability and availability.   Oracle MyLearn: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-database-23ai-new-features-for-administrators/140830/   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   --------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started! 00:26 Nikita: Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Team Lead: Editorial Services with Oracle University, and with me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs. Lois: Hi there! In our last episode, we looked at an Oracle Database 23ai new feature called Automatic Transaction Rollback, and we spoke about why it is such an important feature for database administrators. 00:51 Nikita: Today, we're going to talk about another new feature called Automatic Transaction Quarantine. We'll discuss what it is, go through the steps to monitor and identify quarantine transactions, explore how an issue is resolved once a quarantined transaction has been identified, and end by looking at quarantined transaction escalation, and how it helps to protect not only your PDB, but also your container database. Lois: Back with us is Bill Millar, our Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor with Oracle University. Hi Bill! What is automatic transaction quarantine and why do we need it? 01:27 Bill: The good news is that starting in 23c with the database quarantines, it's going to isolate a transaction or transactions that could possibly cause a system crash, so you can avoid crashes. It's going to isolate those transactions that potentially could cause a problem. However, those transactions must be manually resolved by the DBA so that the row locks are released from those bad transactions. A transaction recovery basically is going to isolate failure and also identify what is the cause of that corruption. So when a system restarts, transaction can fail to recover while the other transactions can be recovered. So with the transaction recovery, basically, we know when the system recovers, the SMON is going to use the redo and the undo. 02:27 Nikita: Can you explain that in a little more detail? How does transaction recovery work and why is it so critical for database stability? Bill: It does the redo to roll forward the database. However, at that point, it'll go ahead and open the database, allow it to start being used while it is applying the undo. And when it cannot apply that undo, that's when the system is going to mark that transaction as bad for that. That is what is transaction recovery. Whereas instance recovery is basically the same thing, except now you're in a RAC environment. And it's unable to be recovered on one of the instances within your RAC environment. Because it can be, it'll have those rows locked, and it can affect the other instances. So SMON might be unable to perform that recovery, so it could cause that PDB or the CDB to crash. OK, now, nobody can access any information. So once if that entire container crashes, recovery is going to stop. If it has a bad transaction, recovery stops. So it might be because of physical data, might be because of the index is corrupt, might be logical corruption. So it stops that interactive transaction recovery process. So not only does it stop the recovery of the transaction that is trying to be recovered by SMON, it's going to stop the rest of the inactive transactions. Those row locks are held. And it can impact critical operations. Yeah, if my system can't do anything, yes, it's going to have an impact. The DBAs must resolve what is that bad transaction, how to get rid of it, how we're going to get around it? 04:12 Lois: Bill, what's the workflow a DBA would follow when a transaction is quarantined? Bill: So in the system, when that transaction recovery failure is, OK, I've found this dead transaction. I'm going to quarantine. I'm going to say, hey, you have something you need to take care of for that. So it's not recovered by the SMON. So what's going to happen? So there is also is going to be a limit. So if it does reach that limit and the limit is three, then you're going to have to step in and try to take care of that very quickly. The shut down abort will be performed on the PDB. So the good news there is that it's going to keep it from impacting the entire container. If the limit isn't reached, well, then, OK, hey, we have this bad transaction that's going to quarantine, is going to populate. There's a couple of views that you can go out and look at. There's a CDB quarantine transactions or a DBA quarantine transactions. Those views you can look at. And then once we determine that, what are we going to do to try to recover it? If we're going to try to recover it, then we can go ahead and drop that bad transaction. It'll help free up the rows. That way, everything can start working again. That PDB can be opened. 05:30 Nikita: What can you tell us about monitoring quarantined transactions? What specific views or logs should DBAs monitor? Bill: So you can view. You'll see these quarantine transactions in several different places. One is the alert queue. It's going to be sent to the alert queue. That is what is going to notify Enterprise Manager Cloud Control, also populates it within the AWR. Back in 21c, we added the attention log. It shows critical events. Hey, you need to take a look at this. It also can populate it. It will populate it to the alert log. So remember you have the V$DIAG_ALERT that you can look at. Or, if you're familiar with or you use the ADRCI, automatic diagnostic repair recovery advisor, so you can also look at the alert log there. So there are two new views, the CDB_QUARANTINED_TRANSACTION, the DBA_QUARANTINE_TRANSACTIONS working with multi-tenant. The CDB, I can see all the quarantine transactions from the root container, the DBA_QUARANTINE_TRANSACTIONS what I see if I'm in a specific PDB. But it's going to give me the information. 06:52 Lois: What about resolving quarantined transactions? Bill: Monitoring is a must to be able to identify, hey, we have bad transactions that we need to-- quarantine transactions we need to take care of. You can apply the appropriate MOS note if you're not sure what to do. Like anything else, if something happens-- and hopefully, you're not getting quarantined transactions daily or anything like that. But once we start doing a few things, we remember how to do them. 07:21 Lois: And, how do we take care of this? Bill: Well, you always have the ability to go to My Oracle Support. There is a view called-- that CDB quarantine transaction that we talked about that we can look at, hey, here's the reason. And we might use that to go out there and search My Oracle Support and/or contact Oracle Support. 07:49 Do you have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us on the Idea Incubator. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects! Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started.  08:09 Nikita: Welcome back! Bill, what are some of the common causes of quarantined transactions? Could you share some examples with us? And how do you resolve them? Bill: One could be physical corruptions. It could either be logical or physical. So maybe because media failed. Hardware bits get flipped. So that might be able to be easily fixed by using the RMAN Block Media Recovery. And that's the lowest level of recovery that we can apply. And then there's logical corruptions. This is the recommended order when trying to resolve logical corruptions. First level is the Block Media Recovery. And then, after that, if the Block Media Recovery fails, then possibly, how about re-creating that data segment? So either truncate or drop it, and then recover it from another source. So once you drop the segment, the transaction then is going to skip trying to recover it. It's no longer there. So it's, OK, hey, I'm successful now. And then, the last resort type method is to drop that undo segment. There's an offline rollback segment that you can use. But it's recommended-- it's best to avoid that-- again, kind of a last-ditch effort to try to fix something. There are other options that you might try. However, these options do end up being a loss of data. Why? Because we're going to do a point-in-time recovery. So we can go back to a table point-in-time recovery. So we start with the Block Media Recovery. OK, we can't. OK, so how about if we go back before that transaction and try to recover the table at that time? So it will be a loss of data. Then, the next level is, we can't do the table. Can we do the entire tablespace? That might be an option. Might flashback the database if we are using-- if we have Flashback Database on. Again, that's just another method of point-in-time recovery. And then also do a database point-in-time recovery. If we can do the database point-in-time recovery flashback at the PDB level, so that way it's not impacting the entire container, hopefully, we don't have to try to do a point-in-time recovery at the database level. So we wouldn't want to do that. That would something really drastic would have to happen to force us to do the entire container. But we want to do that at the PDB level. 10:54 Lois: Ok. So the issue is resolved. What happens next? Bill: So once we have the issue resolved that caused that, SMON is still going to try to do transaction recovery because why? That quarantined transaction says, hey, I've still got this bad transaction there. So once that transaction has been fixed, we need to drop that quarantined transaction. So that way, SMON says, hey, I have this transaction. I need to recover. SMON will keep from trying to do that. So there is a DDL command to drop that quarantined transaction. So remember, from the views, the quarantined transaction views, that's where we saw the undo segment. We saw the slot number. We saw the quarantined transaction slot number. So that way, we can drop that transaction by using that. 11:51 Nikita: How does the escalation process work for quarantined transactions? And why is it important to protect the PDB and the container database? Bill: So quarantined transaction escalation-- we might have multiple transactions fail, depending on the corruption level. It might have multiple blocks for that that have failed. So just to quarantine a bad transaction may not help whatsoever. It depends on what the root cause is for the failures and how many are happening at that time. So the database with these bad transactions will continuously run in an inconsistent state. So it could be dangerous if we have multiples of the same issue and that. So with that system running in an inconsistent state, things will continue to spread. Things will continue to get worse. That's why, once that level of 3 is reached, we go ahead, and we do a shut down abort on that PDB. Because if a transaction can't be recovered, there's no need in trying to do any other type of shutdown. So with this escalation process, it does benefit us because, again, SMON is going to continuously try to recover that bad transaction for that. OK, SMON's going to keep trying. It's not going to work. And at some point, it might cause it to crash. So by stopping it before it continues getting worse, damaging more, we're going to go ahead and say we're escalating this issue to where we're shutting down the PDB. Fault tolerance, so meaning that we have higher availability of the rest of the container. So it's not going to crash the entire container. So the PDB can continue to operate when we are trying to resolve transactions except in the case where it exceeds the amount, and it does a shutdown abort on that PDB. So with that escalation, we reach that limit of 3 for that. We do a Shutdown Abort on that PDB. That transaction recovery is disabled. OK. Don't try to recover any transactions. Why? Because we know we have a few of them. So it's shut down, so we're going to go out and look at our quarantine transactions views, what's the reason for that, how many do we have? And then, once we resolve the issue, we are going to enable recovery again because it turns off the recovery option before it allows us to open that PDB. It's not going to be in a consistent state, though. So now we can go ahead and alter the system and, OK, go ahead and allow recovery of transactions again. 14:42 Lois: Thank you, Bill, for walking us through the details of automatic transaction quarantine and telling us how to manage and resolve these complex scenarios. Nikita: Yeah, thanks Bill! To learn more about what we discussed today, visit mylearn.oracle.com and search for the Oracle Database 23ai New Features for Administrators course. Join us next week for a discussion on some more Oracle Database 23ai new features. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 15:13 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham are joined by Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor Bill Millar who explains Oracle's newest caching solution called True Cache. Available in Oracle Database 23ai, True Cache is an automatically managed, in-memory, read-only cache that improves application performance dramatically. Bill provides an overview of its features and highlights the benefits of using True Cache.   Oracle MyLearn: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-database-23ai-new-features-for-administrators/140830/   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   --------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started! 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week, we had quite a power-packed episode. We discussed the 23ai new feature for Automatic SQL Plan Management. We also looked at the 23ai automatic feature that enhances SecureFiles LOB Write Performance as well as the update to Wide Columns. 00:59 Lois: Yeah, and in today's episode, we will look at True Cache, another 23ai new feature. To tell us all about it, we have Bill Millar back with us. Bill is a Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor with Oracle University. We'll ask Bill to give us an overview of True Cache, talk about its configuration and deployment, and discuss how to apply True Cache to our applications.  Nikita: To kick things off, Bill, can you give us a high-level overview of what True Cache is? How does it differ from other caching solutions like Redis or Memcached? 01:35 Bill: True Cache is an in-memory cache. It is read-only. True Cache is deployed in front of a primary database, and it is automatically managed. It keeps the most frequently accessed data in the cache, and it keeps the cache consistent with the primary database. They call it diskless, but it's not. It does require some space for SP file, redo logs, control files, and such. But it's very similar to Active Data Guard.  The queries can be offloaded to the True Cache for faster query response. And the data in the query cache is consistent. Unlike other mid-tier caches like Redis or Memcached, a query to the True Cache returns only committed data, and the data is always consistent. It's secure. Why? Because we implement our Oracle database security policies and you can control access to the cache.  02:33 Lois: So, why should we use True Cache?  Bill: Improve application performance without having to rewrite any applications. That can save considerable amount of time, effort, and expense. Reduces the application response time. So the closer the True Cache is to the application, the faster the response. Now, you do need a large amount of memory. We're talking memory here. It's an in-memory storage area, and depending on how you configure it, you can have it shared, you can have it divided. We mentioned it's automatically maintained. So there's no application changes required, and it is transparent to the application. Again, simplifies that development and maintenance.  03:15 Nikita: How does it impact application performance, and what kind of scenarios would benefit the most from implementing True Cache? Bill: So at a high-level view, True Cache or primary database, the application configuration serves as other things that are going to decide where is it going to query the data from, from the True Cache or from the primary database.  The True Cache satisfies that query. And that's where the data will be fetched from. If not, then from the primary database. On start up, True Cache is empty. So it starts reading large chunks of data to populate the True Cache. So after a block is cached, then again, it can be automatically updated, apply the redo to it-- very similar to the Oracle Active Data Guard. In the data returned, it is always going to be consistent.  04:04 Lois: Is it going to be current data? Bill: Maybe, maybe not. If it's been updated in the primary, if they redo apply hasn't occurred yet, then it's not the most consistent. But as far as the query cache is concerned, it is the most current because we only display consistent. You can have multiple True Caches. You can save the same database application service to the True Cache as you can partition it.  04:28 Nikita: I'm curious about the memory requirements, Bill. How crucial is memory for True Cache's performance? Bill: You need to have significant amount of memory. Memory, memory, memory. So True Cache is completely memory, memory. So I want to have all my data possible in there. The more memory you have, the less likely something is going to age out. And of course, just like with the standard caching, you can also pin objects to stay in the True Cache.  Yeah, like I said, there are some requirements for storage, even though it's called diskless because of, again, redo log files, configuration files like the control files, SP file. And again it is read only.  05:11 Lois: Can you explain the differences between using physical and logical connections with True Cache? How does this impact the way applications interact with the database? Bill: So with using the True Cache, we have two physical connections, and we can have one to the primary database and one to the True Cache. Each connection has a database application service associated with it, and it's going to choose which connection to use based whether it's going to go to the True Cache or to the primary database.  The second way is the application maintains one logical connection that uses the application service for the primary database. It's the JDBC thin driver, starting with Oracle Database 23 is available. It's going to maintain the physical connections to the primary database and the True Cache itself. Now, the logical connection, the one logical and one physical, is for Java applications only.  Applications that work with JSON, we extend the HTTP entity tag support for that. So a database GET request to the True Cache is going to compute the ETag, insert it into the return document.  06:27 Nikita: But what happens if there's a mismatch when the modified document is put back into the primary database?  Bill: Well, then the database is going to verify. OK, what happens with that?  It's going to verify the document row still matches that ETag for that. If with that put command, let's say, I have new data here, the row is going to match that ETag that was automatically updated. If there's no match, another user has changed the data and the PUT request is rejected. So the PUT request can be retired using the new data.  07:05 Are you planning to become an Oracle Certified Professional this year? Whether you're a seasoned IT pro or just starting your career, getting certified can give you a significant boost. And don't worry, we've got your back! Join us at one of our cert prep live events in the Oracle University Learning Community. You'll get insider tips from seasoned experts and learn from other professionals' experiences. Plus, once you've earned your certification, you'll become part of our exclusive forum for Oracle-certified users. So, what are you waiting for? Head over to mylearn.oracle.com and create an account to jump-start your journey towards certification today! 07:48 Nikita: Welcome back! Now, how do you configure True Cache, Bill? Bill: You can configure True Cache one of two ways. You can either use the Database Configuration Assistant, which actually makes it a little simpler to configure it, and you can also manually create it.  You have some environment options. One is a uniform configuration where you can deploy identical True Cache that use the same database application service. Another way is partition configuration. The data is going to be divided across multiple True Caches, which, each cache is a different subset of the data. You can also deploy True Cache in a RAC environment. As one might expect, there are some additional configuration steps for a RAC environment.  You want to make sure you verify your configuration, that the database application services are working as expected after you configure it. And then, optionally, you can enable DML redirection. What that will do, it writes data to the primary database, and that data is automatically updated in the cache. It's very similar how to the Oracle Active Data Guard works. Because the DML redirection uses more resources, it's not recommended for update-intensive applications.  There is a parameter, a ADG_REDIRECT_DML initialization parameter, that you will set to True in order to do that.  09:18 Lois: Bill, what are the specific challenges or considerations that administrators should be aware of during the configuration process?  Bill: You do need to make sure your network is configured for True Cache in the primary database. So optionally, you can create a remote listener for high availability. But you create your True Cache. You go ahead, and make sure that you have your primary database. You want the network configuration for both of those. And then you create the True Cache. Once the True Cache is created, you're going to create the application services associated with the database. And then, you're going to start the database application services on the True Cache.  When it comes to naming the application service names, each primary database application is going to be associated with a corresponding True Cache application service. To help simplify things a little bit, in the naming convention, you'll notice in our examples-- for example, if we have SALES as the primary database service, then we have the True Cache, we have SALES_TC, standing for True Cache, so it's easily identified.  You don't have to do that, but it's kind of recommended to do that, some way that you're going to identify it. So we're going to start our True Cache services. And you only start the True Cache services on the True Cache instances. Because it's the database services on the database that you need to make sure are started. And they are read-only.  10:46 Lois: Are there some best practices for maximum availability architecture? Bill: Uniform configuration seems to be a popular one. Why? Because I am going to have the both True Caches can be shared. That way, hopefully, I'm getting full usage out of both. And maybe if I have one service going to one, it might be minimally used. Whereas, the other one might be over. Hey, I could use more memory over here.  We'll also recommend use the JDBC 23ai UCP, Universal Connection Pool, for the application. So that can lessen the impact. If one True Cache becomes unavailable, as far as, OK, I need to reroute over here-- benefit of uniform configuration also. Prepopulate the cache. You want to go ahead and run the critical workload for that. If you have a planned outage, and you need to shut down the True Cache, you want to make sure you stop the database application service on that True Cache.  And then, how are you going to design your True Cache? Are you going to partition it? Are you going to have uniform? Which partition option are you going to use? So you can try to design that to help minimize the number of fetches it has to do from the primary database. And the more you can keep in the True Cache, the better the performance is going to be.  12:09 Nikita: What do I need to keep in mind when it comes to managing True Cache? Bill: One thing you might need to do for managing the True Cache is to monitor the True Cache. There's a couple different ways that we can do it. One, you can use the V$ view, the V$TRUE_CACHE view. And, of course, you can always use the Automatic Workload Repository.  12:30 Lois: Bill, we already spoke about this a bit, but can you tell us more about using True Cache in an application? Bill: There's two ways of using True Cache, as we've seen, physical and logical. Physical, it's going to maintain two connections, front one to the primary database and one to the True Cache. The application can decide which connection to use, based off of what it is trying to do.  If it's just reading, long as it's for a service that's configured with True Cache, it can read the True Cache. If it's going to write something, it's going to update, insert, whatever the case might be, it's for the primary database. And you can use any existing client driver as long as you're using the physical connection method. Any programming language will also work.  With the one logical connection method, it uses the application service for the primary database. You're going to use the JDBC Thin driver, starting with 23ai. You can use it and it maintains the connection to the primary database and True Cache. This model only works with Java applications, though. It maintains the physical connections.  We're going to enable the driver connection. And then, we're going to set the read only. We're going to set it to read only, true. Read only, false, whatever the case might be. And the read only mode is false for a connection by default. False is the default. Java applications only.  14:14 Nikita: What are some best practices for load balancing in a uniform configuration? Bill: You have multiple--multiple True Caches. They're going to service the same database application. They're going to cache the same data. It's the listener that's going to distribute the load balances. So the listener will automatically distribute and load each session to each cache. It will do it randomly and it will do it based off a load. Where can it configure? Where can it send for the best performance.  To route the request to the best performing True Cache, you want to make sure that you are using the same listener. So that remote listener parameter should point to the same listener, which is also the primary database listener. Single instance primary database local listener or scan listener, whichever one you're using, points to the primary. For the application for the JDBC URL, should point to the primary database.  You'll remember that Thin driver is going to create that logical connection, and it's going to create the physical connection to the primary database into each True Cache. To simplify things and possibly avoid connection issues, you might consider using the LISTENER_NETWORK, so the initialization parameter instead of specifying the remote and local listener separately. Because with the local--with the listener networks, all listeners within the same network name will cross register.  15:44 Lois: Before we wrap up, are there any complementary features that you would recommend using alongside True Cache to further enhance performance or simplify management? Bill: There are features that can complement True Cache-- the server-side result set cache.  So you can create--you can go ahead and create the result set that's part of the library cache set aside, a portion of that. You're going to go in, you're going to configure what objects will use that. You can still use that even with True Cache.  There's also the KEEP Buffer Pool that can be used. It's a separate pool that you set aside as part of the buffer cache. And you want to make sure you size it so the object that you want to keep in memory in the buffer cache that you size it appropriately. But again, some configuration, you configure the key pool, plus also you go in and alter the objects to use it.  And then lastly, there's the database smart flash cache. So again, if your data doesn't fit into memory, you can expand the capacity of by adding flash devices. When you configure the flash cache, if you are using transparent data encryption data, the local flash devices is not supported. So if it's TD encrypted on the primary database, it's going to stay in the buffer cache of the primary database.  17:11 Nikita: Ok! I think we can close the episode with that. Thank you, once again, for joining us, Bill.  Lois: Yes thanks! We're learning so much from you. To learn more about what we discussed today, including the various configuration options that are available, visit mylearn.oracle.com and search for the Oracle Database 23ai New Features for Administrators course. Join us next week for a discussion on some more Oracle Database 23ai new features. Until then, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham signing off! 17:46 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham speak with Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor Bill Millar about the enhanced performance of Hybrid Columnar Compression, the different compression levels, and how to achieve the best compression for your tables. Then, they delve into Fast Ingest, what's new in Oracle Database 23ai, and the benefits of these improvements.   Oracle MyLearn: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-database-23ai-new-features-for-administrators/137192/207062   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   --------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started! 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! In our last episode, we spoke about the 23ai improvements in time and data handling and data storage with Senior Principal Instructor Serge Moiseev. Today, we're going to discuss the enhancements that have been made to the performance of Hybrid Columnar Compression. We'll look at how Hybrid Columnar Compression was prior to 23ai, learn about the changes that have been made, talk about how to use this compression in 23ai, and look at some performance factors. After that, we'll move on to Fast Ingest, the improvements in 23ai, and how it is managed. 01:15 Lois: Yeah, this is a packed episode and to take us through all this, we have Bill Millar back on the podcast. Bill is a Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor with Oracle University. Hi Bill! Thanks for joining us. So, let's start with how Hybrid Columnar Compression was prior to 23ai. What can you tell us about it? Bill: We support all kinds of platforms from the Database Enterprise Edition on up to the high engineered systems for that and even the Exadata Cloud at the Customer. We have four different levels of compression. One is considered the warehouse compression where we do a COLUMN STORE COMPRESS FOR QUERY LOW and COLUMN STORE COMPRESS FOR QUERY HIGH. The COLUMN STORE COMPRESS FOR QUERY HIGH is the default, unless another compression level is specified. With the archive compression, we have the COLUMN STORE COMPRESSED FOR ARCHIVE LOW and also COLUMN STORE COMPRESS FOR ARCHIVE HIGH. With the Hybrid Columnar Compression warehouse and archive, the array inserts are compressed immediately. But, however, some conditions have to be met. It has to be a locally-- to use these, it has to be a locally managed tablespace, the automatic segment space management. And compatibility level, at least 12 too or higher when these values have been introduced. There are different compressors that are used for the compression hidden from the customer. It just depends on what is selected as to what is going to be the compression that's going to be used for--  notice that with the COLUMN STORE FOR QUERY HIGH and for ARCHIVE LOW, the zlib compression method is used, whereas if you select the ARCHIVE HIGH, the Bzip2. And in 19C, we added the Zstandard. And it's available for the MEMORY COMPRESS FOR CAPACITY HIGH.  03:30 Nikita: So, what's happened in 23ai? Bill: When in 23c, to take advantage of the changes in compression, the compatibility level has to be set at least to 23.0.0 or higher. When a table is created or altered with the hybrid column compression, the Zstandard will automatically be selected. So it doesn't matter which one of the four you select, that will be the one that is selected. It is internally set transparent to the user. There is no new SQL format that has to be used in order for the Zstandard compression to be applied. And the Database Compatibility Mode has to be at least at 23.0.0 or higher. Only then can the format of the Hybrid Column Compression storage use that Zstandard compression. If we already have compressed data blocks in existing tables, they're going to remain in their original format.  04:31 Lois: And are the objects regenerated? Bill: If the objects are-- they might be regenerated if they were deleted in another operation. If you want to completely take advantage of the new compression, all you have to do is alter table move. And that's going to go ahead and trigger the recompression of that, whereas any newly created tables that are created will use the Zstandard by default. 05:00 Nikita: What are the performance factors we need to think about, Bill? Bill: There are some performance factors that we do need to consider, the ratio, the amount of space reduction in storage that we're going to achieve, the time spent compressing the data, the CPU cost to compress that data, and also, is there any decompression rate, time spent decompressing the data when we're doing queries on it? 05:24 Lois: And not all tables are equal, are they? Bill: Not all tables are equal. Some might get better performance by different compression level than others for that. So how we can basically have to test our results, there is a compression advisor that's available, that you can use to give you a recommendation on what compression to use. But only through testing can we really see the availability, the benefits of using that compression for an application. So best compression, just as in previous versions, the higher the compression levels, the more CPU it's going to use. The higher the compression level, the more space savings that we're going to achieve for that as we are doing those direct path inserts. So there's always that cost. 06:20 Did you know that the Oracle University Learning Community regularly holds live events hosted by Oracle expert instructors. Find out how to prepare for your certification exams. Learn about the latest technology advances and features. Ask questions in real time and learn from an Oracle subject matter expert. From Ask Me Anything about certification to Ask the Instructor coaching sessions, you'll be able to achieve your learning goals for 2024 in no time. Join a live event today and witness firsthand the transformative power of the Oracle University Learning Community. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started.  07:01 Nikita: Welcome back! Let's now move on to the enhancements that have been made to fast ingest. We'll begin with an overview of fast ingest, how to use it, and the improvements and benefits. And then we'll look at some features for managing fast ingest. Bill, why don't you start by defining fast ingest for us?  Bill: Traditionally the fast ingest, also referred to as deferred inserts, is faster than processing a single row at a time. It can support high-volume transactions like from the Internet of Things applications, where you have hundreds of thousands of items coming in trying to write to the database. They are faster, because the inserts don't use the traditional buffer cache. They use a pool that will size out of the large pool. And then they're later written to disk using the SMCO, the space management coordinator. Instead of using the buffer cache, they're going to write into an area of the large pool. The space management coordinator, it has these helper threads, however many-- that's just a number for that-- that will buffer. And as buffer is filled based off size of that algorithm, it will then write those deferred inserts into the database itself. 08:24 Lois: So, do deferred inserts support constraints? Bill: Deferred writes do support constraints in index just as for regular inserts. However, performance benchmarks that have been done recommend that you disable constraints, if you're going to use the fast ingest. 08:41 Lois: Can you tell us a bit about the streaming and ingest mechanism?  Bill: We declare a table with the memoptimize for write. We can do that in the create table statement, or we can alter the table for that. The data is written to the large pool, unlike traditionally writing items to the buffer cache. It's going to write to the ingest buffer, the large pool. And it's going to be drained. It's going to be written from that area by using those background processes to write to the actual database itself. So the very high throughput, since drainers issues deferred writes in large batches. So we're not having to wait especially for the buffer cache. OK, I need space. OK, I need to write. I need to free up blocks. Very ideal for these streaming inserts, sensor readings, alarms, door locks. Those type of things. 09:33 Nikita: How does performance improve with this? Bill: With the benchmarks we have done, we have found that the performance can be up to 75% faster by going ahead and doing the fast ingest versus traditional inserts. The 23 million inserts per second on a single X6-2 server with the benchmarks that we have. 09:58 Nikita: Are there any considerations to keep in mind? Bill: With the fast ingest, some things to consider for that. The written data, you might need to validate to make sure it's there. So you might have input files that are writing to that that are loading it. You might want to hang on to those, before that data destroyed. Have some kind of mechanism to validate, yes, it was written. There is a possible loss of data. Why? Because unlike the buffer cache that has the recovery mechanism with the redo and the undo, there is none with that large pool. So that's why if the system crashes, and the buffers haven't been flushed yet, then it's possible loss of data. There's no queries from the large pool meaning that if I want to query the information that the fast ingest is loading into the table, it doesn't go and see what's sitting in the buffer in the large pool like it does with the buffer cache. Index and constraints are checked but only at flush time. And the memoptimize pool size is a fixed amount of space that we're going to allocate-- of memory that we're going to allocate to use for the memoptimize write. We can enable a table for the fast ingest, enable with the memoptimize for write. We can create a table and do it. We can also alter a table. We already have a table existing. All we have to do is alter it. And we want to use that, the fast ingest, for these tables. 11:21 Lois: Do we have options for the writing operation, Bill? Bill: You do have options for the writing operation. We have the parameters, the memoptimize write where we can turn that on. We can also use it in a hint. It is set at the root level, it. Is not modifiable at the PDB level. It's set at the root level, It is a static parameter. We can also do things in our session. We want to verify, OK, is the memoptimize write on? We can verify a table is enabled. So with the fast ingest, the data inserts, you can also use a hint. You can also set this at a session level.  If you decide there's something that you don't want to use the memoptimize write for, then you can disable it for a table.  12:11 Nikita: Bill, what are some of the benefits of the enhancements made in 23ai? Bill: With some of the enhancements-- so now, some table attributes are now supported-- we can now have common default values for a column. We can use transparent data encryption. We can also use the fast inserts, any inline LOBs, along with virtual columns. We've also added partitioning support. We can do subpartitioning and we can also do interval partitioning, along with auto list. So we've added some items that previously prevented us from doing the fast inserts. It does provide additional flexibility, especially with the enhancements and the restrictions that we have removed. It allows to use that fast insert, especially in a data warehouse-type environment. It can also use-- in the Cloud, it can use encrypted tablespaces, because remember, in the Cloud, we always encrypt, by default, users' data. So now, it also gives us the ability to use it in that Cloud environment because of that change. We have faster background flushing for the loads.  13:36 Lois: And how is it faster now?  Bill: Because we bypassed the traditional buffer cache. Faster ingest for those direct ingest. So again, bypassing the traditional inserts and using the buffer cache gives the ability to bulk load into large pool, then flush to the database so that way, we have access to that data for possible faster analytics of those internet of things, especially when it comes to the temperature of the temperature sensors. We need to know when a temperature of something is out of bounds very quickly. Or maybe it's sensors for security. We need to know when there's a problem with the security. 14:20 Nikita: How difficult is it to manage this? Bill: Management is fairly simple. We have the MEMOPTIMIZE_WRITE_AREA_SIZE parameter that we're going to say-- it is dynamic. It does not require a restart. However, all instances in a RAC environment must have the same value. So we have the write area. What are we going to set? And then the MEMOPTIMIZE_WRITE, by default, it uses a hint. Or we can go ahead and we can just set that to all. It is allocated from the large pool. You manually set it. And we can see how much is actually being allocated to the pool. We can go out and look at our alert log for that information.  There's also a view. The MEMOPTIMIZE_WRITE_AREA has some columns. What is the total memory allocated for the large pool? How much is currently used by the fast ingest? How much free space? As you're using it, you might want to go out and do a little checking, or do you have enough space? Are you not allocating enough space? Or have you allocated too much?  It'll also show the total number of writes, and also, the number-- the writers is currently the users that are using it.  And the container ID, what is the container within that container database? What's the pluggable or pluggables that's using the fast ingest? There is a subprogram, the DBMS_MEMOPTIMIZE that we have access to that we possibly can use. So there are some procedures. Here, we can return the rows of the low and high water mark of the sequence numbers. And the key here is across all the sessions. We can see the high water mark, sequence number of the rows written to the large pool for the current session. And we can also flush all the ingest data from the large pool to disk for the current session. 16:26 Lois: What if I want to flush them all for all sessions?  Bill: Well, that's where we have the WRITE_FLUSH procedure. So it's going to flush the fast ingest data of the Memoptimize Rowstore from the large pool for all the sessions. As a DBA, that's one that you most likely will want to be using, especially if it's going to be before I do a shutdown or something along that line. 16:49 Nikita: Ok! On that note, I think we can end this episode. Thank you so much for taking us through all that, Bill. Lois: Yes, thanks Bill. If you want to learn more about what we discussed today, visit mylearn.oracle.com and search for Oracle Database 23ai New Features for Administrators. Join us next week for a discussion on some more Oracle Database 23ai new features. Until then, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham signing off! 17:21 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

In this episode of the Oracle University Podcast, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham kick off a new season with a deep dive into the latest features of Oracle Database 23ai. Joined by Bill Millar, a Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor, they explore the new enhancements to blockchain tables, such as row versions, user chains, delegate signer, and countersignature. So, if you're curious about harnessing the power of blockchain tables for your database needs, this is the perfect episode for you!   Oracle MyLearn: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-database-23ai-new-features-for-administrators/137192/207062   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.     --------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative  podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started! 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Thank you for joining us as we begin a new season of the podcast. For the next few weeks, we're going to explore all the new features in Oracle Database 23ai, previously known as 23c. These episodes will be great for you if you're a database administrator, a developer, or even a database architect. Lois: Right Niki, and while anyone can listen to the podcast, you're probably going to get the most out of this season if you have prior knowledge or experience with the previous versions of Oracle Database and have used SQL to manage Oracle Databases. Throughout this season, we'll discuss new features in database availability, architecture, manageability, performance, and security.  01:21 Nikita: Exactly. Today, we're diving into the world of blockchain tables and the new features introduced. First, we'll try to get an overview of blockchain tables that were introduced in 21c. Then, we'll discuss the new features in 23ai, including row versions, user chains, delegate signer, and countersignature.  Lois: So, let's get started. To take us through all this, we are joined today by Bill Millar. Bill is a Senior Principal Database & MySQL Instructor with Oracle University. Hi Bill! Thanks for joining us. To begin, what is a blockchain table? 01:59 Bill: Well, a blockchain table provides the means for recording transactions where only insert operations are allowed. And rows are protected or restricted based on time as defined when the table is created. This makes the rows tamper-resistant with their chaining algorithms.  02:16 Nikita: Bill, take us through some common attributes of a blockchain table. Bill: They are append only, protects the current data in the table. Made tamper-resistant with their hashing algorithm. And optionally, they can be digitally signed. However, they are mandatory in blockchain platform transactions. Transaction logs, audit trails, compliance information, they can most benefit from using blockchain tables.  02:44 Lois: Bill, let's talk for a minute about the blockchain tables being tamper-resistant. What makes a blockchain table tamper-proof?  Bill: Well, with the insert only tables, each row is going to be chained to the previous row, except the first row. There's nothing to change it to. So once a row is added, it changes it to the previous row, to the previous row. Rows are linked when the transaction commits. We don't link them beforehand because you might roll back.  03:13 Nikita: Do we have some considerations or guidelines for managing blockchain tables? Bill: One, they may be partitioned. You can specify retention at a table level, the blockchain table itself. You can use the no drop clause. And you can also define it blockchain tables at the row level when you create that blockchain table. Defining a retention period for the table itself or a retention period for the rows.  03:41 Nikita: And are there any restrictions when using blockchain tables? Bill: There are several restrictions for the blockchain table. Some of them are… There are some data types that are not supported. The row ID, long, timestamp with time zone, and so forth. And there are other operations not allowed. A few of them are updating rows, merging rows, truncating, dropping them partitions. Converting a regular table to a blockchain table or vice versa.  So you do want to make sure that you understand the restrictions if you decide that you're going to use a blockchain table. There are some things you can alter in a blockchain table. One is you can modify a retention period.  It cannot be reduced. However, you can make it longer.  04:30 Lois: Ok, I think I've got it. So, coming to the 23ai features, what's new with blockchain tables? Could you give us a brief overview of them before we dive into each one? Bill: So we have the user chain, just a chain of rows based off to three user-defined columns. Previously, the system defined the chain.  The row versions…it allows me to have multiple historical views of a row that's going to be-- that is maintained with the blockchain table. We have the log history. The flashback data archive history tables are now blockchain tables.  And there's also a countersignature. So you can request the time of signing a row that it has a signature for that. That signature metadata is going to be stored within the row, within some hidden columns. And then you can also have a delegate signer. It's an alternate to the user who is allowed to sign rows inserted by that primary user.  05:31 Nikita: What are some advantages of using blockchain tables? Bill: There are benefits of using the blockchain tables in transparent from fraud protection and users don't know as they're inserting the data. You can detect it by verifying the rows in the blockchain table. They are not part of the database itself. It can be more secure when you're validating them. And it is easier than distributed blockchains where multiple blockchains with identical data is being maintained across multiple different platforms.  06:03 Lois: And what about benefits specifically from the 23ai new features?  Bill: We have allowed increased flexibility. Just the user-defined itself, instead of having it just rely on the system-defined. It can guarantee row versioning. The blockchain log history to record and protect the changes. The counter signature, along with the digital signature, can help protect it even more.  So you must specify a version. There is no default version, so you must specify whether either it's going to be version 1 or version 2 and create the table. Version 1 is the version from 21c. You have to specify version 2 if you're going to take advantage of some of the new features in 23c.  And with these two different versions, it does reduce the number of columns that you are going to have accessible. Version 1 uses 20 additional columns to maintain that blockchain information, whereas a version 2 blockchain table is going to use 40 additional columns. So that reduces the number of columns that you can use by 40.  Even though version 2 does use more columns for the hidden information, it does have its benefit. It does allow you to add, drop columns. You can drop partitions with version 2. You have distributed transactions. And you can also use with replication, such as Oracle Golden Gate and Active Data Guard.  07:32 Nikita: Are there restrictions when it comes to using blockchain tables? Bill: Again, make sure that you understand the requirements of your tables when determining if blockchain table is going to be appropriate for your application or not.  XMLTypes are not supported. Can't truncate. Doesn't work with sharded tables. Can't work with different policies such as the automatic data optimization, virtual private database, label security. Cannot use the DBMS_REDEFINITION package on a blockchain table.  08:10 Are you planning to become an Oracle Certified Professional this year? Whether you're a seasoned IT pro or just starting your career, getting certified can give you a significant boost. And don't worry, we've got your back! Join us at one of our cert prep live events in the Oracle University Learning Community. You'll get insider tips from seasoned experts and learn from other professionals' experiences. Plus, once you've earned your certification, you'll become part of our exclusive forum for Oracle-certified users. So, what are you waiting for? Head over to www.mylearn.oracle.com and create an account to jump-start your journey towards certification today! 08:53 Nikita: Welcome back! Let's get into each of those 23ai new features, Bill. What can you tell us about the row versions feature? Bill: With the row version option, it allows you to have multiple historic views of a row corresponding to a set of user-defined columns. Previously, only the system would define the columns.  When you create these, it automatically creates a view to allow you to view information about that blockchain table with the row version. The system is going to create the view with the same columns. However, the name of that view, it's going to take whatever that table name that you create and it's going to append the _Las$ onto it for that.  And it has not only the same columns of your table, but it also has additional columns in there. One of them be that last row version. This is going to allow you to see, what is the latest version of that row? In order to use the row versions, you must specify with the row version clause when you create the table.  It is also supported with or without primary key. The primary key column must not be identical to the set of the row version column. There are some restrictions, though. So you must specify-- you must specify a row version name with it. And remember, three columns is the maximum. You don't have to have three. You can have one, two, or three. And then the fields that are restricted to the types-- number, char, varchar, and raw.  And it cannot be used with version 1 blockchain tables, meaning blockchain tables came out in 21C. So if you have 21C, you cannot create it. It's a 23C feature. That's why that is like that. So you're going to specify with the row version. And then you're going to give it that row version name because that is required. And then up to three different columns that you want to use.  10:58 Lois: What about user chains? How do they enhance blockchain tables? Bill: So with the user chains, previously again, only the system chains were available. It randomly selected how to change the tables, what columns to chain it with.  Well now a user chain can be defined by the end user. And set up one, two, or three. Well, how many rows do you want to chain? Have that chain apply to. Again, the column types that we just talked about that are only supported. The number of the char, varchar, and raw. But with the user chains and you being able to identify the columns, it adds that additional flexibility to allow you to have this tamper-resistant table to be used by your applications.  So to create that blockchain table, user chain is defined when you create the table. So you're going to define when you create the table what is going to be that chain for that. When you do create that, any rows that have the same change values will be grouped together.  For example, let's say a banking application. I have an account. I make deposits. I make withdrawals. I do balance inquiries because that's all based off of that same field, that account, it'll group those together within the chain.   It does apply the hashing value to the columns that are stored within that chain.  12:27 Lois: Bill, can you explain the blockchain table delegate signer feature?  Bill: What it is, optionally, a signature that can be applied to provide additional security against tampering for that. However, if you do use it, it does require a digital certificate when adding a signature to a row.  Signatures are validated using that digital certificate and any signature algorithm for that. The delegate is an alternate. And it can be used instead of addition to just a user signature. So when I am the user, I create a row, it adds my signature, I can add my certificate to it or now I can have a delegate to do that for me.  So it can be digitally signed by the delegate. It can be signed by the delegate instead of the user itself. So that way, it's verified. Yes, that is good. Well, maybe users are not able to sign the rows they created, but they trust the delegate.  13:32 Nikita: And the last new feature to discuss is a blockchain table countersignature. Bill: A countersignature is going to provide additional guarantees that, hey, this data has been securely stored within our table itself. You can request a countersignature. It is requested at the time of signing a row. So what it's going to do is it's going to record that signature metadata in that row and the counting signature in the signed bytes that can be returned to the caller to verify, yes, that I might want to retrieve that information to use in another source for that.  So we can use that. As we said here, that candidate signature and the sign bytes, we might put it in another data store, might put it in our Oracle blockchain platform. For this non-repudiation purposes, basically what that means is that, hey, it's proof of the origin, the authenticity of it, the integrity of that data. Well, I want to pass that information to something else, another application or source or whatever. So yes, this is trusted information for that. So it gives that additional security. So it assures that the sender that their message was delivered plus gives proof of that sender's identity.  Countersignatures are saved in the blockchain table, that happens to be a blockchain table itself. The countersignature is computed using the bytes, using that hashing algorithm. It's going to include that end user signature, the delegate, or both. Remember, the end user can sign, a delicate can, or it can use both of that information for that. Even though we do save that information in the blockchain table, we recommend if you're going to use this, you might want to store that information outside of the database for those non-repudiation purposes.  15:37 Lois: Thank you so much, Bill, for taking us though all these updates. We look forward to having you back soon to talk us through some more of these new features. Nikita: To learn more about blockchain tables, visit mylearn.oracle.com and search for the Oracle Database 23ai: New Features for Administrators course. Join us next week for a discussion on some more Oracle Database 23ai new features. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 16:06 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

I'm not a financial advisor; Superpowers for Good should not be considered investment advice. Seek counsel before making investment decisions.Watch the show on television by downloading the e360tv channel app to your Roku, AppleTV or AmazonFireTV. You can also see it on YouTube.When you purchase an item, launch a campaign or invest after clicking a link here, we may earn a commission. Engage to support our work.Devin: Bill, what is your superpower?Bill: Well, if I have one, it has something to do with optimism about scientific innovation and being able to gather teams of people.Devin: Barry, what's your superpower?Barry: Our theme in Rotary this year is inspiration. I'm very fortunate that when I speak with Rotarians, I can deliver a message that really touches their hearts.For today's episode of Superpowers for Good, I had the privilege of speaking with two remarkable leaders: Bill Gates, Chair of the Gates Foundation, and Barry Rassin, former President of Rotary International. We spoke in May 2019. The episode is significant enough to justify sharing anew.Our conversation delved into the collaborative efforts that are bringing us closer to eradicating polio, showcasing a model of partnership that has far-reaching implications for global health. Five years on, the work to eradicate polio continues.Bill shared the profound impact of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI), a partnership between the Gates Foundation, Rotary International, UNICEF, WHO, and CDC, initiated in 1988. He emphasized, "Getting rid of a disease is kind of the ultimate goal for all these infectious diseases. It's only happened once before with smallpox... the possibility that no kids will ever be paralyzed again even without having to spend lots and lots of money... appears within sight." His passion for ensuring that no child suffers from polio, especially in developing countries, highlighted the critical role of coordinated global efforts.Barry echoed this sentiment, reflecting on the strength of the partnership with the Gates Foundation. "The beauty of it is that we recognize that when we do things together, we can do so much more. The GPEI partnership... works so well because we were working together," he noted. Barry also emphasized the importance of continuing this collaboration to tackle other global health challenges once polio is eradicated.This episode not only underscored the progress made in the fight against polio but also illustrated the broader potential of such partnerships. As Bill mentioned, "Polio has had to pioneer a lot of things... mapping out where the kids are turned out to be a key tactic." This legacy of innovation and collaboration sets a precedent for addressing other infectious diseases and health crises.Reflecting on the discussion, it is clear that the eradication of polio is within our grasp, thanks to the unwavering dedication of leaders like Bill and Barry. Their vision and collaboration offer hope and a roadmap for tackling other global health challenges, making our world a safer and healthier place for future generations.AI Episode Summary1. Initiation and Motivation: Bill Gates explained why his foundation became involved in the polio eradication efforts, emphasizing the tragic nature of the disease and the significant progress made since the partnership began in 1988.2. Global Health Partnership: Rotary International President Barry Rawson highlighted the power of collaboration, with the Gates Foundation bringing not only funding but also technical expertise to the global fight against polio.3. Future Partnerships: Rotary is open to future collaborations with the Gates Foundation on various issues, such as malaria and water, and is looking to expand their joint impact on global health and development.4. Foundation Priorities: Bill discussed the Gates Foundation's shifting focus once polio is eradicated, placing HIV and malaria as subsequent focal points and emphasizing the importance of robust primary health care systems.5. Vaccine Development: Bill's foresight in developing a new polio vaccine was validated by the outcome, demonstrating the necessity and value of preparing for future health challenges even when the end goal seems imminent.6. Collaborative Models: The Global Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI) is cited as a successful model of collaboration among international organizations, illustrating the benefits of keeping overhead low and fostering teamwork over creating new entities.7. Polio's Legacy: The polio effort has led to innovations that will benefit other health initiatives, such as better population mapping and emergency response capabilities, which were useful in crises like the Ebola outbreak.8. Funding and Strategy: Bill highlighted Rotary's critical role in fundraising and maintaining visibility on polio eradication, with programs like the two-for-one match enhancing the collective financial input into the effort.9. Inspirational Leadership: President Barry described his ability to motivate and inspire Rotarians, focusing their efforts on eradicating polio and leveraging their collective energy and resources efficiently.10. Call to Action: Both leaders encouraged viewers to contribute to the polio fight, with Barry emphasizing the ease of donating through Rotary's platforms and highlighting the significant impact those contributions can have.How to Develop Optimism and Teambuilding As a SuperpowerSummary of Bill Gates's SuperpowerBill Gates's superpower lies in his unwavering optimism about scientific innovation and his exceptional ability to gather and lead diverse teams. From his days at Microsoft, where he assembled teams of engineers, to his current work at the Gates Foundation, Bill's leadership is characterized by his strategic vision and patience, especially in tackling long-term challenges in global health.Tips for Developing Bill's Superpower1. Cultivate Optimism: Focus on the positive potential of scientific advancements and believe in the possibility of innovative solutions.2. Build Diverse Teams: Assemble teams with varied expertise to tackle complex problems. Look for individuals who complement each other's skills.3. Be Patient and Persistent: Understand that meaningful progress, especially in scientific research and global health, often takes years. Stay committed to long-term goals.4. Leverage Resources: Utilize available resources strategically, and seek partnerships to amplify impact.RecapBy following Bill's example and advice, you can make **optimism and team building** a skill. With practice and effort, you could make it a superpower that enables you to do more good in the world.Remember, however, that research into success suggests that building on your own superpowers is more important than creating new ones or overcoming weaknesses. You do you!How to Develop Inspiration As a SuperpowerSummary of Barry Rassin's SuperpowerBarry Rassin's superpower is his inspirational leadership. As the former President of Rotary International, Barry has a unique ability to connect with people on an emotional level, motivating Rotarians to engage deeply in their mission. His capacity to inspire action has been pivotal in driving Rotary's efforts to eradicate polio and address other global challenges.Tips for Developing Barry's Superpower1. Connect Emotionally: Make your message personal and relatable, and strive to touch people's hearts.2. Motivate Through Action: Inspire others by showing the tangible impact of their efforts and encouraging them to contribute actively.3. Emphasize Teamwork: Highlight the importance of working together and the collective power of a motivated group.4. Stay Focused: Keep the team focused on the primary goal until it is achieved before moving on to the next challenge.RecapBy following Barry's example and advice, you can make **inspiration** a skill. With practice and effort, you could make it a superpower that enables you to do more good in the world.Remember, however, that research into success suggests that building on your own superpowers is more important than creating new ones or overcoming weaknesses. You do you!Guest ProfilesBill GatesBill Gates is the co-founder of Microsoft Corporation and serves as the Chair of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Renowned for his transformative contributions to technology and philanthropy, Gates co-founded Microsoft in 1975, revolutionizing personal computing and becoming one of the world's wealthiest individuals. In 2000, he transitioned from his role at Microsoft to focus on global health and development through the Gates Foundation, which he Chairs.Under his leadership, the foundation has become one of the largest private charitable organizations in the world, with an endowment of over $50 billion. The foundation is committed to improving healthcare, reducing extreme poverty, and expanding educational opportunities. Gates's philanthropic efforts have led to significant advances in eradicating diseases such as polio and malaria, and in promoting innovations in agriculture and education.Gates is also a prolific author and speaker, advocating for sustainable development, climate change mitigation, and equitable access to technology. His work continues to inspire global efforts toward creating a more just and prosperous world. Through his vision and dedication, Bill Gates exemplifies the power of technology and philanthropy to drive positive social change.Barry RassinBarry Rassin is a distinguished leader and humanitarian who served as the President of Rotary International for the 2018-2019 term. With a career dedicated to healthcare and community service, Rassin has made a significant impact both locally and globally. He is a Fellow of the American College of Healthcare Executives and holds a master's degree in health and hospital administration from the University of Florida.Rassin's tenure at Rotary International was marked by his commitment to advancing the organization's mission of fostering peace, fighting disease, providing clean water, supporting education, and growing local economies. He championed the cause of sustainable development, emphasizing the importance of climate action and disaster preparedness. Under his leadership, Rotary International made substantial strides in its efforts to eradicate polio, improve maternal and child health, and promote peacebuilding initiatives.In addition to his role in Rotary, Rassin has served as the President of Doctors Hospital in Nassau, Bahamas, where he played a pivotal role in improving healthcare services. He is a Paul Harris Fellow and has been recognized with numerous awards for his contributions to public health and community service.Barry Rassin's leadership and dedication to humanitarian service continue to inspire Rotarians and volunteers worldwide, reflecting his unwavering commitment to making a difference in the lives of others.Upcoming SuperCrowd Event CalendarIf a location is not noted, the events below are virtual.* Impact Cherub Club Meeting hosted by The Super Crowd, Inc., a public benefit corporation, on May 21, 2024, at 1:00 PM Eastern. Each month, the Club meets to review new offerings for investment consideration and to conduct due diligence on previously screened deals. To join the Impact Cherub Club, you must first become an Impact Member of the SuperCrowd.* SuperCrowdHour, June 19, 2024, at 1:00 Eastern. Each month, we host a value-laden webinar for aspiring impact investors or social entrepreneurs. At this month's webinar, Angela Barbash of Revalue will share insights about moving money from Wall Street to Main Street. Register here.* SuperCrowdChicago, June 12, 2024. This in-person event at Columbia College Chicago features some of Chicago's prominent citizens and community leaders, along with crowdfunding experts. Use the discount code “SuperCrowd” to save 30 percent!* Recently, we created an AI GPT to help you learn more about The Super Crowd, Inc., a public benefit corporation, and our upcoming events. Click here to try it.SuperCrowd Community Event Calendar* Successful Funding with Karl Dakin, Tuesdays at 10:00 AM ET * Crowdfunding Professional Association Webinar, May 29, 2:00 PM ET* The Reg A & Crowdfunding Conference, June 20, Westchester Country Club (Save 20% with the code Super20)* Crowdfunding Professional Association, Summit in DC, October 22-23* Asheville Neighborhood Economics, November 12-13.If you would like to submit an event for us to share with the 4,500+ members of the SuperCrowd, click here.We use AI to help us write compelling recaps of each episode. Get full access to Superpowers for Good at www.superpowers4good.com/subscribe

The Said It: Kraft wishes Bill well after his thank you to the fans

Many businesses equate "manager" with "leader," excluding potential leaders from across the organization. In this episode, Bill Bellows and host Andrew Stotz talk about leadership in Deming organizations - with a great story about senior "leaders" making a huge error in judgment at a conference of auditors. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.0 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows, who has spent 30 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. The topic for today, episode number 14, is Beyond Management by Extremes. Bill, take it away.   0:00:29.7 Bill: Number 14 already, Andrew.   0:00:32.0 AS: Incredible.   0:00:32.6 Bill: It's a good thing we skipped number 13. That's an unlucky number. [laughter]   0:00:37.0 AS: Not in Thailand. It's a lucky number.   [laughter]   0:00:40.6 Bill: No, we didn't skip number 13. This is 14.   0:00:42.1 AS: Yes, we didn't.   0:00:43.5 Bill: Alright, so I just enjoy going back and listening to all of our podcasts, once, twice, three times. And then I talk with friends who are listening to them. And so I'd like to start off with some opening comments and then we'll get into tonight's feature, today's feature.   0:01:00.9 AS: So let's just, to refresh people's memory, episode 13, which we just previously did, was Integration Excellence, part two.   0:01:09.2 Bill: Yes. And that's what we called it. [laughter] So... [laughter] So last week I...   When we thought about getting together, but I had the wrong time, and it worked out well in my schedule. Last week, Andrew, I did three presentations. A two-hour lecture for Cal State Northridge, which is part of a master's degree program, where I do a class in quality management. That was Tuesday night. Wednesday morning I did a one-hour presentation with one hour of conversation afterwards with the Chartered Quality Institute, which is kind of like the American Society for Quality in the UK, and this... So this was several hundred people from the UK and also the Caribbean chapter from Trinidad Tobago, Jamaica. And so there's a bunch there. And then on Thursday morning I did a three hour session for a group in Rotterdam, which was really early for me and late afternoon for them.   0:02:25.4 Bill: And in all three, I covered similar material for all three groups, which included the trip report that we've done on the ME Versus WE, how did you do on the exam? How did we do? And so it was really neat to present that to the three. And in each case, when I threw out the question, "how did you do on the exam?" And then explained as I did one of our earlier podcasts that if you've got a long list of inputs, which includes - the woman I was talking to and, 'cause I said to her, the question is how did you draw on the exam? What are the inputs? And she said, the inputs are, my energy, my enthusiasm, my commitment that she got stuck. And I said, have other students helped you? And she said, yes, other students have helped you. I said, that's another input.   0:03:17.3 Bill: I said, given that input, how many can you see? And she said, oh my gosh. She said, my professor, my parents, my brother. And then all of a sudden there was this long list of inputs that she couldn't see. And so I explained that to the people and then say, "if you've got that long list of inputs and the original question is, how did you do on the exam? Does that long list of inputs change the question or are you okay with that question?" And what I look for is, and what we've talked about is, does the whole idea, how did we do on the exam jump out at you? No, it doesn't jump out. So, in each case, I said, here's the situation, might you reframe the question? And in all three situations, most of them that I asked said, there's essentially nothing wrong with the question. And if they did restate the question, they kept the "you," "do you think you could have done better?" Do you think... And that's what's so cool is that they just hold onto the you. Well, and for one of the groups it came a... It was kind of like what I was saying was semantics.   0:04:32.6 Bill: And I said this is not semantics. I said, there's a big difference between somebody, you know referring to our kids as my son and my daughter and our son and our daughter. And this, "my," is singular ownership, "our" is joint ownership. And so what I was trying to explain is that, saying “How did you do versus how did we do?” is the difference between being an observer of your learning if you were the student, Andrew and a participant. Those are not... Those are enormous differences. It's not, just, it's not just a simple change in pronouns. And so when I... And when I got to next, I was at a meeting years ago, I was at the annual, you ready Andrew? I was at Boeing's Annual Auditor's Conference.   0:05:40.5 AS: Sounds exciting.   0:05:41.4 Bill: 1999. So I got invited to be a speaker, Andrew at Boeing's Annual All Auditors Conference. Right? So I'm thinking going into this, that these are a bunch of people that don't feel valued. Because it's not like I get a phone call and I say, hold on, hold on. Hey Andrew, I got good news. And you say, you're a coworker, what's the good news? Annual... Andrew, we're gonna be audited next week!   [laughter]   0:06:10.2 Bill: You're like, "Holy cow. Hold on, lemme go tell everybody." So I thought going into this meeting is, these are a bunch of people that don't feel valued. I'm an auditor at least that was, so that was my theory going into this, so it's a Monday afternoon gathering with a dinner and then all day the next, all day for a couple days. So the opening speaker, speaker on Monday night was the senior executive of a big Boeing division, it might have been Boeing defense let's say. And my theory was first of all, you got a bunch of people that don't feel valued and I came away from the three days thinking there's a whole lot going on in audit whether it's financial audit, data integrity audit, quality audit, these are necessary roles. And so I came out of it with great respect for that whole organization otherwise would think right, but I'm thinking this executive is going to come in, going to do the Friday, Monday night presentation and I'm thinking it's like they drew straws and they say well okay I'll go, I'll go up there and talk with them.   0:07:22.8 Bill: Within minutes of him speaking I'm thinking this guy's excited to be here. So I'm thinking he's going to kind of phone it in, now I'm watching this I'm thinking he is, he is really engaged with the audience. He's talking about, the future role of the audit organization being partners and all this and he's talking, I mean he's giving them an enormous bear hug and I'm thinking this is not what I thought and again and so... I'm still thinking he's either a really good actor or he really wants to be here. Then my theory was and I thought, holy cow, now I get it. How many people in the room Andrew would it take to leave the room with their nose out of joint and shut down the F18 program by noon tomorrow? How many people would it take?   0:08:21.3 AS: Not many, one.   0:08:22.9 Bill: Right, so then I'm thinking these, he needs these people to love him, because if he disrespects them, it's a bad day. So I went from thinking why would you want to be here if you were here, then I'm thinking, oh no. Now I'm thinking this is brilliant so then I look at the program and I'm thinking which other executives have figured out how valuable this is and I see the next day at lunch is Boeing Commercials I'm thinking they figured it out but the organization I was within was Boeing Space and they weren't on the program so I contacted a friend that was connected high up in Boeing Space, I said we've got to be in this program, right? So the program ending, it ended nice and I'm thinking wow, wow. So then just prior to lunch the next day is the number two guy for Boeing Commercial. Not the number one. The Monday night guy was the number one. The number one guy for Boeing Commercial at the time was Alan Mulally, it wasn't Alan Mulally, it was his number two person.   0:09:33.7 Bill: So he's up on stage, he's up on stage, he's up on stage. And he's talking to the audience and in parallel Jim Albaugh who at the time was CEO of Boeing Commercial, no Boeing Space and none of Jim's people were there, Jim wasn't there. Jim a couple weeks prior he had asked me to get with his speech writer at a presentation he was doing and he wanted some words in there about investment thinking and all the things we've been talking about in this. He said get with him and put some of that stuff in there put there some of that stuff in there. I said okay. So as I'm listening to the number two guy speak there's a lot of "we" and "you" but who's the we? And who's the you? So I'm making notes to myself to tell Jim don't say "you." Say "we" and make the "we" inclusive, 'cause the guy on stage is, the you and the we and the you and the we, and I said no no stay away from "you" focus on we but make sure they understand that "we" is all of us, right?   0:10:35.1 Bill: So this is what's going through my head and I'm writing it all down, writing it all down and then this guy says and I'll paraphrase. I wish I had the exact words and the paraphrase is pretty close to what he said as judged by what the audience heard, right? So when I heard the comment and I'm thinking to myself, you said what? Then I look around the room and I thought he did. Here's what he said again the paraphrase is: he made reference to those within Boeing that do the real work, and he said it in a way that was present company excluded right? Right, so I hear him say 'cause I'm getting, I'm making literally I'm making notes to myself and then I hear that comment and I'm like, did you just say what I thought you said? And I look around the room with 300 people and I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, you did and I'm seeing I am seeing people irate, you see the body language, right?   0:11:44.3 Bill: And I thought wow, how could you say that? So then the lunch speaker was Harry Stonecipher, the chief operating officer. And he was up, walking around the stage. I don't think he knew anything about what happened prior so he's up there talking, okay. After Harry we're getting back to the program and the guy running the entire event is now up on stage and he's very deliberately he's got a, he's got a piece of paper rolled up, he's walking around on stage, "yeah Scott misspoke no doubt about it. He misspoke, I hear you." I hear you, you are ready Andrew? You are ready, you are ready?   0:12:36.8 AS: Give it to me.   0:12:37.4 Bill: And then he says then he says "But let's be honest we don't make the airplanes." And I thought, really? And as soon as he said that, I had this vision of 250,000 employees, which was about the employment at the time. And so as soon as he said that, I just imagined being at the Everett facility, which is huge, where all the twin-aisle plants are made. And I had this vision of 250,000 people in the building. And the CEO Phil Condit says on the microphone, "Okay, I'd like all of you who make the airplanes to move to the west end of the building."   0:13:26.4 AS: And everybody else.   0:13:27.4 Bill: And it's what you get, is all the flight line mechanics move all the way over there. And then you show up and somebody looks at you and they don't see any grease on your hand, and they say, "ahhh you don't make the airplanes." And you say, "you see that tool in your hand? Who do you think ordered it?" And so this "we" and the "you" stuff, how did "you" do? How did "we" do? It was just, it was...   0:14:00.3 AS: He wasn't deliberately setting up the auditors to be pissed and then to be really, really tough on the rest of the organization. I'm teasing with that.   0:14:12.7 Bill: It was, it is just, I shared that with you and our audience as how uniting language can be and how divisive language can be. And so how did we do, how did you do, and what, with just, this is what I find fascinating is - these words bring people together. What I love, I love watching politicians or State Department people speak and 'cause what dawned on me is they are very deliberate on, I mean they to great lengths to not be divisive.   0:14:57.1 Bill: That's their job. And so they introduce people in alphabetical order, countries in alphabetical order. But they, and I thought, what a neat way of not inferring that the first one I list is the most important one and I just thought there's a just an art of diplomacy. And that's what, to me, that's what diplomacy is, is that the art of uniting, not dividing.   0:15:25.7 Bill: Alright. So now I wanna get into, in the three different groups last week we were doing the trip report and we got down to the hallway conversations and the ME Organization versus a WE Organization. And then a question I asked him was, who are the managers in a ME Organization and what do they do? And you got, those are the ones that set the KPIs. Mark the KPIs, beat you up, sit in their office. Okay. Who are the managers in the ME Organization? What do they do? Who are the managers in a WE Organization? And what do they do?   0:16:01.8 Bill: They are mentors. They're out there on the shop floor, they're working with people. People work for managers in a ME Organization. They work with managers in a WE Organization. So I get that and I think "Okay, pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good." And then I follow with "Who are the leaders in a ME Organization and what do they do?"   0:16:26.4 Bill: And what's really cool is you get the same answers as the managers. And that's when I started noticing in a ME Organization, we'll refer to the senior leadership team, the senior management team, and we're talking about the same group of people. And I said, what we've just said is that manager and leader are the same. And then I say to people, so what is that message in a ME Organization? The message is, if you're not a manager, Andrew, then you're not a leader. Which means what? Which means you have permission to wait for direction.   0:17:12.5 Bill: Boeing had a leadership center in St. Louis. It was called the Boeing BLC, the Boeing Leadership Center. Yeah, Boeing Leadership Center. And in order to go there, you had to be a manager. You either had to be a first level manager, you would take frontline leadership, a middle manager, which I was, which is leading from the middle or an executive. But the model... So then I think part of the confusion is in a ME Organization, on the one hand we say, our managers are our leaders. If you're not a manager, wait for the direction, wait to be told.   0:17:49.7 Bill: But then we said, we want our managers to be leaders. But that's the ME Organization. In a WE Organization, in a Deming organization, I think of leadership is the ability to bring forth a new order of things, a new order of designing hardware, a new order of designing software, a new order of marketing, we're talking earlier and the ability to create a new order of things and the ability to create a path for others to follow.   0:18:20.6 Bill: And so then in a WE Organization, it's like show and tell. When we were in elementary school, you go in and say, I have discovered this. And I thought, in a WE Organization, everyone has the ability to be a leader on something within their realm. And why would you, why would you make leadership incl...exclusive, which is the ME Organization. And when I tell companies that I consult for I said, when you make leadership exclusive in a ME Organization, to me, that's a kiss of death 'cause you're telling a few people, you're in charge and you're telling everyone else, you're inferring that everyone else, you wait for direction, again.   0:19:09.0 Bill: And I'm not proposing, everyone's all over the place doing it. No. There's got, this is not chaos. And if I have an idea on something and it's not my assigned responsibility, then I know to reach out to you because you're the marketing guy and I just throw the marketing idea to you and then you do with it what you want. But I look at leadership in a WE Organization as being inclusive. And then we get into this idea of, driving...driving change.   0:19:38.0 AS: Let me just ask you about that. Would this really be down to the core principle of Appreciation of a System? That somebody who appreciates a system knows that there's all kinds of components to that system?   0:19:55.5 Bill: Yes, yes.   0:19:55.6 AS: And that you can't say, oh, well this system really is only the people that are working on the production line, when in fact we know that there's all kinds of people working in that system. If I think about my coffee business as an example, we have a hundred employees and not all of them are working on production. And some are moving paperwork and making phone calls and others are out in the field. So an appreciation of a system brings you to the "we" rather than....   0:20:23.0 Bill: Yes.   0:20:23.5 AS: And a person who gets up and says about me, or, tries to identify that there's a certain number of people that are really driving the performance of this company are, they just have no appreciation for a system.   0:20:39.1 Bill: They have a narrow, a narrow view, a narrow view. So what you just said triggered another thought. But, um, the thing I wanted to add to this, in a ME Organization, it's about driving change. And we've talked about this in prior podcast. I go to, you put a gun to your head and I say, I want this KPI by Friday, Andrew. And you're like, yes, sir. And then I said to people in the past is, if driving change is the mantra of a ME Organization, like you're driving cattle driving, driving, and which is not an endearing concept. It is, it is, this is the where we're going. And I say to people, so what would you call it if driving is the ME construct, what is, what's the language of a WE Organization? And people will be wondering "ah," I say "lead, lead, lead." And if we like where you're going, we will follow. That's you creating the path that we will follow.   0:20:40.0 Bill: So I just wanna throw that out. But the other thing you mentioned about the metrics and the design of the organization and the thinking that, these are the critical people. At lunch with an old friend today, and I was sharing with her I taught a course at Northwestern's Business School, Kellogg Business School in the late '90s. And Kellogg then, and today is the number one or number two business school in the country. And I had a friend who was a student there in..., they liked what I was saying. So they hired me to teach a five week course for four years. And I presented, these ideas to them and it was pretty cool. I was, what was exciting is one of them told me that, what I was sharing with them about Deming, you are ready Andrew? contradicted what they were learning in their other classes.   0:22:46.2 AS: Huh. Funny that.   0:22:48.7 Bill: Yep. And so I did that for four years. There were three classes in quality. One was the use of control of charts, mine was called Quality Management, or TQM or something like that. And so there were roughly 80 students in the program, and they had to take two of the three, five week courses. So I got two out three students in the program. Then after four years, they waived the requirement. And so nobody signed up. And so I, um, after, right after 9/11 was when this happened, they invited me back because the person I was working with really liked what the course was about. But they wanted to, make it optional for people to attend. And he said, why don't you come out and talk with them and, that'll inspire them to sign up for the following year. I said, okay, fine. So I went out and he says there'll be 80 people there. I said, why are you so confident? He said, well, we've made it mandatory for everyone to show up. I thought, well that's, I said, that's one way to get people in the room. I said, do me a favor. I said, let them know I'm coming out and I'll have breakfast, I'll have lunch with whoever would like to meet with me beforehand.   0:22:50.7 Bill: So a dozen of them show up. And one of them says to me he says, you're gonna have a, he says something like, it's only fair to say we had a presenter like you last week. And to be honest, it's gonna be a really hard act for you to follow. So I'm thinking, "well, tell me more." "Well, we had a presenter last week who works for a company that makes pacemakers," I'm thinking, okay, "he had a video and showing people before and after their pacemaker one of the fellow students fainted. It was emotional." And I'm thinking, I'm talking about rocket engines. I don't even have a video. It's not gonna be emotional. I let the guy talk. And at one point he says "they keep track." He said "they keep track of who makes each pacemaker." I said "what do you mean?" He says, "they have a list of the people."   0:23:42.9 Bill: Every pacemaker is associated with a team of people who made the pacemaker. And part of what they saw on the video is people who have received a pacemaker now and then go to that company and they meet the people on their team, Andrew, who made their pacemaker. How do you like that concept? Right? Does that, when you graduate from this MBA program, Andrew, isn't that a neat idea that you can take away and use with you? Right? Right? Isn't that a takeaway? Right? So I'm hearing this [laughter] so I said, "let me see if I got this straight. So you're saying they keep track of who makes each pacemaker?" "Yeah, they do." And that's because, when people come well, people come to visit and they keep track. So let's say I said to the student, "let's say I'm the guy who orders the plastic that goes into the pacemaker. Would I be on the list?" you know what he says, Andrew?   0:26:01.9 Bill: No, you didn't make it.   0:26:04.0 Bill: He says, "no," let me try this. I'm the one who wrote the check, Andrew, that paid for the plastic. Would I be on the list? What he says Andrew? "No, you wouldn't be on the list."   0:26:20.2 Bill: So, I said, "well, why not?" And he says, "you have to draw the line someplace." So, I had with me, post 9/11, ready? I had with me a United We Stand two-foot by three-foot poster, which were all over Los Angeles and likely all over the rest of the world, at least the States. So, I held up the poster, and I said, "Have you seen this before?" He said, "Oh, yeah, United We Stand. I'm all about that." I said, "No, you're not." [laughter] I said, "You think you can draw the line and know who contributes and who doesn't, right?"   0:27:02.8 Bill: And you can suddenly see him kind of back up. I said, "Well, let's be honest." I said, "If teamwork doesn't matter, then draw the line any way you want. It doesn't really matter. But if teamwork does matter, be very careful where you draw that line." And to me, in a WE Organization, "we" is, who is the "we"? It's a big list of people. It's the employees, it's the suppliers, it's the customers. And so anyway, it's just that, so what's neat is, go ahead, Andrew.   0:27:41.6 AS: While you were speaking, I was able to go online and find the website of North, what was it? North?   0:27:49.5 Bill: Northwestern.   0:27:50.3 AS: Western, yes. And I was able to actually find the course that you're talking about that was the one that the students said that what you're teaching is contradicting.  The name of that course, I just found it, here it is, "How to apply KPIs to drive in fear and division in your company." No, no, I just made that up. [laughter] "How to apply KPIs to drive in fear and division in your company?"   0:28:16.7 Bill: All right. And so, and we're gonna get to that. So, so as, so I look at management, there's management as a position, but I look at management as an activity of how we allocate resources. And so, are the resources mine or are they ours? And are we proactive or reactive? And then we talked in the past about purposeful resource management, reflective resource, reflexive resource, resource management, which is being highly reactive. Another thing that came to mind. Well, actually, let me jump to the loss function. We looked at last time because I was going through and listening to it. And I thought, let me, let me clarify.   0:29:00.7 Bill: And so when Dr. Taguchi would draw his, his parabolic loss function, a parabola is a curve that goes higher and higher as you get farther and further away from the center. It's like a bell and it just gets steeper and steeper and steeper. And his loss function would be an upward facing bell. And, and then, and he would draw it sitting on the, on the horizontal axis. The idea of being, when you're at the ideal, the loss is zero. And that's, if you're getting exposure to this for the first time, that's okay. But in fact, let me even throw in here a quote from Dr. Deming. Do I have it right here?   0:30:00.4 Bill: Oh, gosh. Anyway, Dr. Deming made reference to, he said, the Taguchi loss function is a better description of the world. And he talks about how loss continuously gets higher and higher and higher. The point I wanted to make is, what I tell people is, once you get used to that concept that loss gets higher and higher, and what matters is how steep that curve is. And so if that curve is very flat, then no matter where you are within the requirements, nobody really notices. And in that situation, you could have a lot of variation 'cause it doesn't show up. It's not reflected in terms of how...   0:30:40.2 AS: And maybe just to help the listener to visualize this, imagine a V.   0:30:44.6 Bill: Yes.   0:30:45.1 AS: And imagine a U. And a V has a very tiny point that is at zero loss. And it very quickly rises to both sides where loss is getting higher and higher. Whereas a very, kinda, let's say, a deep U could have a tiny little loss that's happening for a distance away from the minimum loss point, and then eventually turn up.   0:31:14.4 Bill: Well, but even, even Andrew, and I like the idea of the V. We could also be talking about a V where the sides, instead of being steep, are very flat. So it's a very wide V, and it never goes high because there's situations where, where the impact on integration is very minimal no matter what. All right. So anyway, um, the point I wanted to make is, I would say to our listeners and viewers, loss, the consequences of being off target, are the difference between what happens downstream at integration. And what I love, I went back and listened to the podcast, the one, you talked about your partner in the coffee business.   0:32:12.2 Bill: The point of integration is when they drink the cup of coffee. And that's integration. I mean, the point when they're, when we're eating a food, that's integration. So the piece of coffee is out there, whatever it is. But when the customer's using it, drinking it, that's integration, Andrew. And a...   0:32:32.2 Bill: And so... What I look at is what the loss, loss is the difference between what you see happening at integration and what you think is possible. So if we're at the Ford factory banging things together with rubber mallets day after day after day and you're the new hire and I show you how to do this, as soon as you begin to believe this is how we do things, then loss is zero. Because that's what we think is the norm. But if you have the ability to rise above that and say, I don't think it needs to be that difference, when you look at it and say, I don't think it needs to be the difference between what you think is possible and what it could... Difference between what is and what you think could be that's loss. And what I also say to people is it takes a special eye that you have to see that. It's like your coffee business, somebody's tasting that coffee and you're thinking this is pretty good. Then they say, "well, try this", whoa.   0:33:40.1 Bill: So it takes a special eye to see loss. But then it takes a whole lot of other people to make that happen. So whether that's people in engineering, manufacturing. So a WE Organization is where someone has the ability to see that opportunity, but it's dependent upon all the others to make it happen. So now let's talk about Beyond Management by Extremes. And these are... Has a lot to do with KPIs and also say in one of our last, wasn't the last one, it was a couple before that you had made clear your firm belief that KPIs need to be thrown away in the morning trash. And I remember on the call listening to you and I'm hearing you, we ought to get rid of them, we ought to get rid of them, we ought to get rid of them.   0:34:38.5 Bill: And I'm thinking they aren't bad, it's how they're used. And so I wasn't sure I was in agreement with you on that call. But when I went back and listened to it and that's what what I, what I told the friend is, I said, if you listen to what Andrew says, I don't say anything at the end. And the reason I didn't say anything is I wasn't sure I agreed. But when I went back and listened to it most recently, I said, yes! yes! yes! 'Cause what you said is: if they can be used without an incentive system. And I thought, yes, yes, yes, yes. And so we are in agreement on KPIs, [laughter] they are... But what we have...   0:35:25.2 AS: Which, which my, which my point is, number one, that as long as you don't attach some kind of incentive or compensation system, then, you're not that, you've eliminated a lot of risk that they're causing damage. The second part is a lot of times what I'm looking at is individual KPIs. And what I'm trying to say is that even if you don't add in compensation, it's, it's, it's a fool's errand to try to set up, three KPIs for a thousand people, three thousand KPIs individually and think that now we've got that set. Our organization is going to really rock now.   0:36:06.0 Bill: Well, then what you get is the KPIs are always round numbers. We want to decrease by 5%, increase by... And you're thinking, so how much science getting to these numbers anyway? And you're thinking, but early on in your career, you look at this, you think, well, somebody's thought about this and you realize, no. And so what management by extremes is about is KPIs that are extreme. And so I my PhD advisor in graduate school, I was studying heat transfer and fluid mechanics and and before each of us graduated, went to work in corporations, he'd pull us aside and he'd say, he'd say, "Bill, he said you're gonna be in a situation one day where your boss is gonna come by and is gonna give you.... He's going to give you an assignment, that gives you, he's gone give, that gives you five minutes to figure it out."   0:37:05.7 Bill: And he says, "so, if he or she comes he comes to you, she comes to you and they give you five minutes to figure out, he said there's only three possible answers and I'll tell you what they are and you got to figure out which of them it is and so it'll take you a minute to figure out which one it is. And then the rest of the time you're going to explain it." I remember saying to him, I says, so, "Okay, so what are the three possible answers?" And he says "zero, one and infinity", 'cause it turns out in the world of heat transfer and fluid mechanics, those three numbers show up pretty often as ideal solutions for different cases. And so what he's saying is when your boss comes to you and says, boom, then you have to say, which case is that? 'Cause if that's this case, it's zero.   0:37:51.0 Bill: This case, it's one. This case is infinity. So I thought, okay. Well, in Dr. Taguchi's work, he talks about quality characteristics. So we're running experiments to improve something and a quality characteristic could be as large as possible, infinity being the ideal, the strength of the material. We want to make it stronger and stronger and stronger. But it's referred to as larger is best, meaning infinity is the ideal, smaller is best I'm trying to reduce leakage. I'm trying to make something smoother and smoother.   0:38:25.9 Bill: That's smaller is best. Zero is the goal. And the other one is to get your first who is nominal as best, where a finite number is the answer. And so what I had in mind with this management by extremes, inspired by my Ph.D. advisor, inspired by Deming, Dr. Taguchi, is that, if the KPI is driving to zero or driving to infinity, we want the inventory Andrew to go to zero. We want sales to go to infinity. I said, if you're thinking about things systemically, I don't think zero or infinity is what we're going to do. And so I throw that out as not all the time, but I think quite often if the KPI, if you're working on something where you're heading to zero, heading to infinity, to me, that's a clue that you're looking at something in isolation. And I would say to people.   0:39:25.2 Bill: Let's say you're, you call me in Andrew and you say, "Bill, we need your help getting the cost down of this project." And I say, "well, what'd you have in mind?" You say, "Bill, we'd we'd love to get 10% out of this cost. Boy, 10%." I said, "Andrew, I can double that." "No way. No way" And I say, "Andrew, on a good day, I could do more than that." And then what I say is that the more you get excited by how much we could lower that cost, eventually I'm going to say, "Andrew, gotcha." And you say, "what do you mean?" "Gotcha. Andrew, you're looking at cost in isolation." What's the clue? You'd love it to go to zero. Or... And that's what we end up doing is we want to drive variation to zero. That's the Six Sigma people. Well, first of all, cloning does not produce identical.   0:40:30.6 Bill: Photocopies don't create identical. Dr. Deming would say that of course there's variation. There'll always be variation. And then there are people, and and I cringe. But Dr. Deming was once asked. He was interviewed by somebody I believe with the BBC back in the '80s. And the interview ends with "So Dr. Deming, if we can condense your philosophy down to two, down to two words, what would it be? Or down to a few words, what would it be?" And he said, "reduce variation" or something like that. And I said, "no, it should be manage variation. We should have what the situation needs." And so I'm going to absolute agreement with you. On how can we have KPIs without goals which make make things even more isolated. And then we talk about by what method are we going to achieve those goals? But I think if we're talking about driving variation to zero, then you're looking at things in isolation. If you are driving waste to zero.   0:41:20.8 Bill: then you're looking at things in isolation. If you're talking about, the non value added efforts driving to zero. I'd say value shows up elsewhere. I had somebody within Boeing once say to me "Bill, you know, being on target, you know being on that ideal value, I've had people tell me that once you achieve the minimum size of a hole, going further doesn't add value." And I'd say "If all you're doing is looking at the hole, I can understand that. But if you're focusing on what goes in the hole, that's different." And the other thing I throw out is I was doing some training years ago. There was a guy in the room that I, I mentioned the term "value engineering" 'cause I remember when I got excited by Taguchi's work and Deming's work, somebody said, "The last big training, big thing was value engineering." "What do you mean?" And they pulled out their "That was the wave of the sixties was value engineering." So I asked this guy in class. I said, so, he mentioned he worked at GE back in the '60s and value engineering was really big. So I said, well, "So tell me about that. What was behind that?" He says, “We were taught to look at a contract and all the deliverables. And our job in the value engineering department was to figure out how to, how to meet each deliverable minimally because anything more than that doesn't add value." And I thought, you can't make that up!   0:42:53.0 Bill: Let's look at all the requirements and how do we go to? What's the absolute minimum we have to deliver on the term paper, on the project.   0:43:06.5 AS: How could we kill this through a thousand cuts?   0:43:10.8 Bill: So that's KPIs. Driving to zero driving to infinity. But, but we're in agreement that if you, in a Deming organization where we're not driven by incentives then KPIs are measures of how we are doing. And why isn't that enough to be able to say, how are things? How are things? We can talk about how might we improve this? But then we're going to look at: Is that a local improvement that makes it worse elsewhere? Are we driving costs to zero and screwing this up? So that's what, that's what I wanted to throw out on this management by extremes zero and infinity, and getting beyond that.   0:43:47.6 AS: Well, I think that's a great point to end it went through so many different things, but I think one of the biggest takeaways that I get from this is the idea of appreciation of a system. When you have a true appreciation of a system and understand that there's many parts and, you know, adding value in that system basically comes from more than just being on a production line, for sure and creating value in an organization comes from not only working on improving a particular area but the integration of the many different functions. And if you don't understand that, then you end up in not a Deming organization, not a WE Organization, but more of a ME Organization. That's kind of what I would take away. Is there anything you would add to that?   0:44:51.9 Bill: Well, what, what reminds me of what you're just saying is I was doing a class years ago for a second shift group in facilities people, painters, electricians, managers, and one of them says, he says "so Bill, everyone's important in an organization." I said, "absolutely. Absolutely everyone's important."   0:45:13.2 Bill: Then he says, "everyone's equally important" right? And as soon as he said that, I thought to myself, "I remember you from a year ago." So he says, "So so everyone's important." "Yeah, everyone's important!" "Everyone's equally important." So as soon as he said that, within a fraction of a second, my response was, "No, if you wanna get paid what a quarterback gets paid, you better, you better train to be a quarterback." So what Dr. Deming is not, he's not saying everyone's paid the same. We're paid based on market rates for quarterbacks, for linemen, for software people. And the, and the better we work together, ideally the better we manage resources, the better the profit, we get in the profit sharing, but we're not equal. Our contributions are not equal. The contributions cannot be compared. They are, they're all part of the sauce, but we don't get into who contributed more." Right, and I think that'... We're all contributors.   0:46:28.3 AS: The more you learn about Dr. Deming's teaching, you just realize that there's an appreciation of a system, but there's also an appreciation of people.   0:46:40.1 Bill: There we go.   0:46:43.2 AS: That's really where, as I have said before, when my friend was working with me on my book, Transforming Your Business with Dr. Deming's 14 Points, after many many weeks of working together, he's like, "I figured it out. Dr. Deming is a humanist. He cares about people." It's pretty true. So appreciate the people around you, appreciate the contribution that everybody makes. Nobody makes equal contributions. And even great people who are making amazing contributions could have down months or years where there's things going on in their family or other issues. They're not contributing what they did in the past.   0:47:17.1 AS: That's a variable that we just can't control. But ultimately, appreciation of the system is what I said in my summary. And now I'm gonna add in appreciation of the people.   0:47:30.6 AS: Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. Again, entertaining, exciting, interesting. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. And if you wanna keep in touch with Bill, just find him on LinkedIn. This is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work".  

Wouldn't it be great if you could practice your Oracle Cloud Apps implementation in a safe, controlled lab environment? Well, now you can!   Join Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Bill Lawson, as they discuss the new Applied Learning for Fusion Cloud Applications Implementation projects, which provide practical use cases and business scenarios that you can work through to apply the concepts you've learned and expand your skills.   Oracle MyLearn: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, Kris-Ann Nansen, Radhika Banka, Sujatha Kalahasthi Raju, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   --------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor with Oracle University, and with me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs. Lois: Hello everyone! In our last episode, we spoke about HCM business processes and learned about the Talent Life Cycle. Today, we're going to take a look at some related training that's just launched in our Cloud Learning Subscriptions. This new training was developed based on requests from our customers and partners. You asked, and we listened. 00:58 Nikita: We're joined by Senior Director of Cloud Applications Product Management, Bill Lawson, who you've heard from before, and he will be telling us all about this exciting new program. Lois: Bill, we're so happy you're back with us today. So, as I mentioned, this new program was a direct result of customer and partner feedback. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that happened and what this new training is all about? 01:20 Bill: I'm happy to be back as well, Lois. And very excited to share details about the Applied Learning for Fusion Cloud Application Implementation projects that are now available. And you're correct. This was in direct response to requests we received from our customers and partners. As you're aware, we hold quarterly feedback sessions with some of our strategic partners and customers, and one thing we heard was the need to have some practical applications of concepts learned in our implementation courses. 01:46 Bill: So, we got our subject matter experts on the task and challenged them with creating some real-world scenarios that students can work through in our hands-on lab practice environments. In these scenarios, students will work their way through examples of some of the decisions and configurations that they and customers might need to go through in an implementation of Oracle Cloud Applications. It's a great way to expand your skills and apply the concepts you've learned in implementation classes in a safe, controlled lab environment. Then, you can take that back to your workplace and apply that knowledge in your own implementation projects. 02:19 Nikita: Wow, that's really cool, Bill. And how exciting that we're taking feedback directly from our customers and developing the training that they are asking for.   Bill: Yes, Niki, it is. And we're planning to continue that listening program in our Oracle University Learning Community. We've launched an Idea Incubator and we're looking forward to hearing from our members about their content ideas and suggestions. Who knows what new types of courses will come out of that?   02:43   Lois: It's another great reason to join the Community for sure.   Bill: Indeed, it is.   Nikita: Ok, Bill, back to the Applied Learning for Fusion Cloud Application Implementations program. Who is this training best suited for?   Bill: Well, Niki, it's really aimed at those people who are going to be actively involved in an Oracle Cloud Apps implementation. So, your solution consultants, implementers, administrators, project teams, etc. etc.   03:07   Nikita: And can you give us an example of what one of these projects looks like?   Bill: I sure can, Niki.    One of the new Applied Learning Implementation projects is centered around Fusion Enterprise Structures & General Ledger in the ERP space.   In the project scenario, we follow a fictional company, which is a startup that has decided to implement Oracle Fusion Cloud Financials to streamline their business processes while taking advantage of the latest functionality Oracle Cloud Applications has to offer.   The case study outlines the business requirements of the company and then provides a challenge to the learner. The student must determine how these requirements would be met within the application, complete the setup and configuration, and validate that they've done it correctly. 03:48   Lois: That's really neat. So essentially, it's mimicking a business scenario that you may come upon in a conference room pilot during an implementation and would have to configure using Fusion Applications.   Bill: Right, Lois. Providing a practical business scenario based on the customers' requirements for the student to configure a solution in a safe practice environment. The student will be prepared to tackle the scenario based on the foundation of knowledge they've gained when they completed the implementation learning path training in the learning subscription or during their previous implementation experience.   04:22   Have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects. If you're already an Oracle MyLearn user, go to MyLearn to join the community. You will need to log in first. If you've not yet accessed Oracle MyLearn, visit mylearn.oracle.com and create an account to get started.    04:51 Nikita: Welcome back. Ok, Bill, so the students do this setup. How do they know it was done correctly? What if they get stumped and don't know what to do?   Bill: If they're completely stumped, then it's probably a good indication that they need to revisit the training and check that they understand the core concepts. But once they've completed the challenge, there will be a solution video in which our SME will walk through one of the possible solutions. Bear in mind, there may be more than one solution that is possible. We will show one possibility, but learners may opt for a different route when they approach the challenge. And that's ok. We want people to be able to explore the options and learn while they're doing so.   05:28 Lois: And all of this is done within MyLearn and the lab environments provided to our learning subscribers, right?   Bill: That's correct, Lois. This content is available to our MyLearn subscribers. The projects are included as part of the Cloud Applications Implementation training. So, if you go to mylearn.oracle.com and search by the phrase “Applied Learning,” you will find all the applicable learning. You can also search by “Implementer” to see the Implementation training that is available. Applied learning projects will be part of this implementation training. The content is available on a paid subscription basis only, but very well worth the investment if you're in the middle of an Oracle Cloud Apps implementation. If you already have a subscription, you can dive right in and give one of our projects a try. 06:12   Nikita: Bill, where are these Applied Learning scenarios found? Is it only for General Ledger?   Bill: No, Niki, it's not. We've got Applied Learning projects available for 10 of our most popular product areas, such as General Ledger, Payables, Receivables, Project Management, Accounting Hub, Global Human Resources, Talent Management, Recruiting, Inventory, and Procurement.   Lois: So, we're covering all the bases here – ERP, SCM, HCM…   Bill: Exactly.   06:42 Lois: Is there anything else we should know about the Applied Learning program? Bill: Well funny you should ask, Lois, because one of the unique things we're doing with this new program is we're offering the opportunity to engage with other people who are completing the project via a discussion in the Oracle University Learning Community.   Lois: You knew that was a loaded question, right?   Bill: Haha, I sure did. You're the champion of our Community.   So, in the Community, people can ask questions, share their solutions, and more. It's a great way to expand the learning experience and see how other people approached those same scenarios based on their knowledge and experience.   07:13 Nikita: And if people have ideas for other Applied Learning scenarios, what should they do?   Bill: They can always suggest those in the Idea Incubator in the Community, Niki.   Lois: Yep. The Community has a lot of great things to offer. If you're not a member, you should join today by accessing it via mylearn.oracle.com.   07:29 Nikita: Thank you so much, Bill, for coming back to talk to us about the Applied Learning program. I really think it's such a great new resource for our learners. Bill: I'm always happy to be here with you ladies. Thank you for having me. Lois: Thanks Bill. Ok, next week we've got another great topic lined up. If you followed along with some of the announcements at Oracle Cloud World, you'll know that we launched a new certification and training path centered around Artificial Intelligence. Next week, we'll be talking with Rohit Rahi to learn more about this free training that is available, in an episode we're calling AI for Everyone. You won't want to miss that. 08:03 Nikita: And if you want to learn more about these Applied Learning projects, visit mylearn.oracle.com. Lois: Right, Niki. So that's all for today. Until next time, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham, signing off! 08:15 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Episode Notes:A discussion recently concluded 20th Party Congress and what to expect ahead in US China relations. I'm pleased to welcome back Chris Johnson, CEO of Consultancy China Strategies Group, Senior Fellow at the Asia Society Policy Institute Center for China Analysis and former Senior China analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency. This is the 7th Party Congress that Chris has analyzed professionally.Links:John Culver: How We Would Know When China Is Preparing to Invade Taiwan - Carnegie Endowment for International PeaceTranscript:Bill: Welcome back to the very occasional Sinocism podcast. Today we are going to talk about the recently concluded 20th Party Congress and what to expect ahead in US China relations. I'm pleased to welcome back Chris Johnson, CEO of Consultancy China Strategies Group, Senior Fellow at the Asia Society Policy Institute Center for China Analysis and former Senior China analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency. This is the 7th Party Congress that Chris has analyzed professionally. So we have a lot of experience here to help us understand what just happened. Chris, welcome back and thanks for taking the time.Chris: My pleasure. Always fun to be with you, Bill.Bill: Great. Well, why don't we jump right in. I'd like to talk about what you see as the most important outcomes from the Congress starting with personnel. What do you make of the leadership team from the central committee to the Politburo to the Standing Committee and what does that say about.Chris: Yeah, well, I, think clearly Xi Jinping had a massive win, you know, with personnel. I think we see this particularly in the Politburo Standing Committee, right, where on the key portfolios that really matter to him in terms of controlling the key levers of power inside the system. So we're talking propaganda, obviously, Uh, we're talking party bureaucracy, military less so, but security services, you know, these, these sort of areas all up and down the ballot he did very well.So that's obviously very important. And I think obviously then the dropping of the so-called Communist Youth League faction oriented people in Li Keqiang and Wang Yang and, and Hu Chunhua being  kind of unceremoniously kicked off the Politburo, that tells us that. He's not in the mood to compromise with any other  interest group.I prefer to call them rather than factions. Um, so that sort of suggests to us that, you know, models that rely on that kind of an analysis are dead. It has been kind of interesting in my mind to see how quickly though that, you know, analysts who tend to follow that framework already talking about the, uh, factional elements within Xi's faction, right?So, you know, it's gonna be the Shanghai people versus the Zhijiang Army versus the Fujian people. Bill: people say there's a Tsinghua factionChris: Right. The, the infamous, non infamous Tsinghua clique and, and and so on. But I think as we look more closely, I mean this is all kidding aside, if we look more closely at the individuals, what we see is obviously these people, you know, loyalty to Xi is, is sort of like necessary, but not necessarily sufficient in explaining who these people are. Also, I just always find it interesting, you know, somehow over. Wang Huning has become a Xi Jinping loyalist. I mean, obviously he plays an interesting role for Xj Jinping, but I don't think we should kid ourselves in noting that he's been kind of shunted aside Right by being pushed into the fourth position on the standing committee, which probably tells us that he will be going to oversee the Chinese People's Consultative Congress, which is, you know, kind of a do nothing body, you know, for the most part. And, um, you know, my sense has long been, One of Xi Jinping's, I think a couple factors there with Wang Huning.Sinocism is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.One is, you know, yes, he is very talented at sort of taking their very, uh, expansive, um, theoretical ideas and coming up with snappy, um, snappy sort of catchphrases, right? This is clearly his, um, his sort of claim to fame. But, you know, we had that article last year from the magazine, Palladium that kind of painted him as some sort of an éminence grise or a Rasputin like figure, you know, in terms of his role.Uh, you know, my sense has always been, uh, as one contact, put it to me one time. You know, the issue is that such analyses tend to confuse the musician with the conductor. In other words,  Xi Jinping.  is pretty good at ideology, right? And party history and the other things that I think the others had relied on.I think the second thing with Wang Huning is, um, in a way XI can't look at him I don't think, without sort of seeing here's a guy who's changed flags, as they would say, right? He served three very different leaders, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao, and now Xi , um, and, and continued on and I think at some level, uh, and we look at the rest of the appointments where it appears that, uh, loyalty was much more important than merit.Um, where that's also a question mark. So there's those issues I think on the Politburo. You know, you mentioned the, the Tsinghua clique it was very interesting. You had shared with me, uh, Desmond Shum of Red Roulette fame's Twitter stream sort of debunking, you know, this, this Tsinghua clique and saying, well, it turns out in fact that the new Shanghai Municipal Party Secretary Chen Jining can't stand Chen Xi, even though, you know, they both went to Tsinghua and were there at the same time and so on.Um, you know, who knows with Desmond Shum, but I think he knows some things, right? And, and, and it just a reminder to us all, I think, how little we understand right, about these relationships, especially now, uh, with Xi's concentration of power. And also a situation where we've had nearly three years of covid isolationBill: Right. And so it's really hard to go talk to people, even the fewer and fewer numbers, people who, who know something and can talk. Back to the standing committee. I, I think certainly just from friends and contacts the biggest surprise you know, I think, uh was Li Keqiang and Wang Yang not sticking around. And as that long explainer said without naming them they were good comrades who steps aside for the good of the party in the country,Chris: Because that happens so often,Bill: whatever that means. Um, but really the, the bigger surprise was that, oh, Cai Qi showing up. Who I think when you look at the standing committee, I think the general sense is, okay, the, these people are all, you know, not, they're loyal, but they're also competent, like Li Qiang, Chris: Right, Bill: The likely new premier number two on the standing committee is pretty competent. The Shanghai lockdown, disaster aside, Cai Qi on the other hand, was just, looks more like, it's just straight up loyalty to Xi. I think he was not really on anybody's short list of who was gonna make it on there. And so, it does feel like something happened, right?Chris: Yeah. Well, um, a couple things there. I think, um, one, let's start with the. The issue you raised about the economic team cuz I think that's actually very important. Um, you know, I, at some level, sometimes I feel like I'm sort of tiring my, of my role as official narrative buster or a windmill tilter.Uh, whether, whether it's pushback from Li Keqiang or the myth of the savior premier as I was calling it, which, uh, we didn't see, or that these norms actually aren't very enduring and it's really about power politics. I, I think I'm kind of onto a new one now, which is, you know, Xi Jin ping's new team of incompetent sycophants.Right? That's kind of the label that's, uh, come out in a lot of the takes, uh, since the Congress. But to your point, I mean, you know, Li Qiang has run the three most important economic powerhouses on China's east coast, either as governor or as party chief. Right. He seems to have had a, a good relationship with both.Private sector businesses and, and foreign, you know, people forget that, you know, he got the Tesla plant built in Shanghai in a year basically. Right. And it's, uh, responsible for a very significant amount of, of Tesla's total input of vehicles. Output of vehicles. Excuse me. Um, likewise, I hear that Ding Xuexiang, even though we don't know a lot about him, uh, was rather instrumental in things.Breaking the log jam with the US uh, over the de-listing of Chinese ADRs, uh, that he had played an important role in convincing Xi Jinping it would not be a good idea, for example, to, uh, you know, we're already seeing, uh, sort of decoupling on the technology side. It would not be a good idea to encourage the Americans to decouple financially as well. So the point is I think we need to just all kind of calm down, right? And, and see how these people perform in office. He Lifeng, I think is perhaps, you know, maybe more of a question mark, but, But here too, I think it's important for us to think about how their system worksThe political report sets the frame, right? It tells us what. Okay, this is the ideological construct we're working off of, or our interpretation, our dialectical interpretation of what's going on. And that, I think the signal there was what I like to call this fortress economy, right? So self-sufficiency and technology and so on.And so then when we look at the Politburo appointments, you can see that they align pretty closely to that agenda, right? These people who've worked in state firms or scientists and you know, so on and forth.Bill: Aerospace, defenseChris: Yeah, Aerospace. Very close alignment with that agenda. I'm not saying this is the right choice for China or that it even will be successful, I'm just saying it makes sense, you know,Bill: And it is not just sycophants it is actually loyal but some expertise or experience in these key sectors Chris: Exactly.  Yeah, and, and, and, and of interest as well. You know, even people who have overlapped with Xi Jinping. How much overlap did they have? How much exposure did they have? You know, there's a lot of discussion, for example, about the new propaganda boss, Li Shulei being very close to Xi and likewise Shi Taifeng.Right? Uh, both of whom were vice presidents at the party school when, when Xi also was there. Um, but remember, you know, he was understudy to Hu Jintao at the time, you know, I mean, the party school thing was a very small part of his portfolio and they were ranked lower, you know, amongst the vice presidents of the party school.So how much actual interaction did he have? So there too, you know, I think, uh, obviously. , yes these people will do what Xi Jinping wants them to do, but that doesn't mean they're not competent. On Cai Qi, I agree with you. I think it's, it's, it's difficult. You know, my speculation would be a couple of things.One, proximity matters, right? He's been sitting in Beijing the last five years, so he is, had the opportunity to, uh, be close to the boss and, and impact that. I've heard some suggestions from contacts, which I think makes some. He was seen as more strictly enforcing the zero Covid policy. Right. In part because he is sitting in Beijing than say a Chen Min'er, right.Who arguably was a other stroke better, you know, candidate for that position on the Politburo standing committee. And there, you know, it will be interesting to see, you know, we're not sure the musical chairs have not yet finished. Right. The post party Congress for people getting new jobs. But you know, for example, if Chen Min'er stays out in Chongqing, that seems like a bit of a loss for him.Bill: Yeah, he needs to go somewhere else if he's got any hope of, um, sort of, But so one thing, sorry. One thing on the Politburo I thought was really interesting, and I know we've talked about offline, um, is that the first time the head of the Ministry State Security was, was. Promoted into the Politburo - Chen Wenqing.  And now he is the Secretary of the Central Political Legal Affairs Commission, the party body that oversees the entire security services system and legal system. and what do you think that says about priorities and, and, and where Xi sees things going?Chris: Well, I think it definitely aligns with this concept of Xi Jiping's of comprehensive national security. Right. We've, we've seen and heard and read a lot about that and it seems that the, uh, number of types of security endlessly proliferate, I think we're up to 13 or 14Bill: Everything is National Security in Xi's China.Chris: Yeah. Everything is, is national security. Uh, that's one thing I think it's interesting perhaps in the, in the frame of, you know, in an era where they are becoming a bigger power and therefore, uh, have more resources and so on. You know, is that role that's played by the Ministry of State Security, which is, you know, they have this unique role, don't they?They're in a way, they're sort of the US' Central Intelligence Agency and, and FBI, Federal Bureau of Investigation combined, and that they do have that internal security role as well, but, They are the foreign civilian anyway, uh, foreign intelligence collection arm. So perhaps, you know, over time there's been some sense that they realized, yes, cyber was great for certain things, but you still need human intelligence.Uh, you know, we don't know how well or not Chen Wenqing has performed, but you know, obviously there, this has been a relentless campaign, you know, the search for spies and so on and so forth. Um, I also think it says something about what we seem to be seeing emerging here, which is an effort to take what previously were these, you know, warring, uh, administrative or ministerial factions, right, of the Ministry of Public Security MPS, the MSS, uh, and even the party's, uh, discipline watchdog, the, uh, Central Commission on Discipline inspection, you know, in an effort to sort of knit those guys into one whole.And you know, it is interesting.Chen wending has experience in all three of those. He started off, I think as a street cop. Um, he did serve on the discipline inspection commission under, uh, Wang Qishan when things were, you know, really going  in that department in the early part of, Xi's tenure and then he's headed, uh, the Ministry of State Security.I think, you know, even more interesting probably is. The, uh, formation of the new secretariat, right? Where we have both Chen Wenqing on there and also Wang Xiaohong as a minister of Public Security, but also as a deputy on the CPLAC, right? And a seat on the secretariat. And if we look at the, um, The gentleman who's number two in the discipline inspection, uh, space, he was a longtime police officer as well.So that's very unusual. You know, uh, his name's escaping me at the moment. But, um, you know, so in effect you have basically three people on the Secretariat with security backgrounds and, you know, that's important. It means other portfolios that might be on the secretariat that have been dumped, right? So it shows something about the prioritization, uh, of security.And I think it's interesting, you know, we've, we've often struggled to understand what is the National Security Commission, how does it function, You know, these sort of things. And it's, it's still, you know, absolutely clear as mud. But what was interesting was that, you know, from whatever that early design was that had some aspect at least of looking a bit like the US style, National Security Commission, they took on a much more sort of internal looking flavor.And it had always been my sort of thought that one of the reasons Xi Jinping created this thing was to break down, you know, those institutional rivalries and barriers and force, you know, coordination on these, on these institutions. So, you know, bottom line, I think what we're seeing is a real effort by Xi Jinping to You know, knit together a comprehensive, unified, and very effective, you know, stifling, really security apparatus. And, uh, I don't expect to see that change anytime soon. And then, you know, as you and I have been discussing recently, we also have, uh, another Xi loyalist Chen Yixin showing up as Chen Wenqing's successor right at the Ministry of State SecurityBill: And he remains Secretary General of the Political and Legal Affairs Commission too.Chris: Exactly. So, you know, from, from a, a sheet home where Xi Jinping five years ago arguably had very loose control, if at all, we now have a situation where he's totally dominant. Bill: I think the, the official on the Secretariat, I think it's Liu Jinguo.Chris: That's the one. Yes. Thank you. I'm getting old…Bill: He also has, has a long history of the Ministry of Public Security system. Um, but yeah, it does, it does seem like it's a, it's a real, I mean it, I I, I don't wanna use the word securitization, but it does like this is the indication of a, of a real, sort of, it just sort of fits with the, the general trend  towards much more focus on national security. I mean, what about on the, the Central Military Commission? Right? Because one of the surprises was, um, again, and this is where the norms were broken, where you have Zhang Youxia, who should have retired based on his age, but he's 72, he's on the Politburo he stays as a vice chair of the CMCChris: Yep. Yeah, no, at, at, at the rip old age of 72. It's a little hard, uh, to think of him, you know, mounting a tank or something  to go invade Taiwan or whatever the, you know, whatever the case may be. But, you know, I, I think here again, the narratives might be off base a little bit, you know, it's this issue of, you know, well he's just picked, you know, these sycophantic loyalists, He's a guy who has combat experience, right?And that's increasingly rare. Um, I don't think it's any surprise that. That himself. And, uh, the, uh, uh, gentleman on the CMC, uh, Li, who is now heading the, um, Joint Chiefs of Staff, he also has Vietnam combat experience, not from 79, but from the, uh, the border incursions that went on into the80s. Um, so it's not that surprising really.But, but obviously, you know, Zhang Youxia is very close to Xi Jinping, their father's fought together, right? Um, and they have that sort of, uh, blood tie and Xi is signaling, I want, uh, I. Political control and also technologically or, or, um, you know, operationally competent people. I think the other fascinating piece is we see once again no vice chairman from the political commissar iatside of the PLA.I think that's very interesting. You know, a lot of people, including myself, were betting that Miao HuaWould, would, would get the promotion. He didn't, you know, we can't know. But my sense is in a way, Xi Jiping is still punishing that side of the PLA for Xu Caihou's misdoings. Right. You know, and that's very interesting in and of itself.Also, it may be a signal that I don't need a political commissar vice chairman because I handle the politicsBill: And, and, and he, yeah. And in this, this new era that the, the next phase of the Xi era, it, it is, uh, everybody knows, right? It's, it's all about loyalty to Xi.Chris: we just saw right, uh, today, you know, uh, yet, yet more instructions about the CMC responsibilities, Chairman, responsibility systems. Bill: Unfortunately they didn't release the full text but it would be fascinating to see what's in there.Chris: And they never do on these things, which is, uh, which is tough. But, um, you know, I think we have a general sense of what would be in it, . But, but even that itself, right, you know, is a very major thing that people, you know, didn't really pick up. Certain scholars, certainly like James Mulvenon and other people who are really good on this stuff noticed it. But this shift under Hu Jintao was a CMC vice chairman responsibility system. In other words, he was subletting the operational matters certainly to his uniformed officers, Xi Jinping doesn't do thatBill: Well, this, and here we are, right where he can indeed I mean, I, I had written in the newsletter, um, you know, that she had, I thought, I think he ran the table in terms of personnel.Chris: Oh, completely. Yeah.Bill: And this is why it is interesting he kept around folks like Wang Huning, but we'll move on. The next question I had really was about Xi's report to the party Congress and we had talked, I think you'd also, um, you've talked about on our previous podcasts, I mean there, there seems to be a pretty significant shift in the way Xi is talking about the geopolitical environment and their assessment and how they see the world. Can you talk about a little bit?Chris: Yeah, I mean, I think definitely we saw some shifts there and, uh, you know, you and I have talked a lot about it. You know, there are problems with word counting, right? You know, and when you look at the thing and you just do a machine search, and it's like, okay, well security was mentioned 350 times or whatever, but, but the, you know, in what context?Right. Um, and, uh, our, uh, mutual admiration society, the, uh, the China Media project, uh, I thought they did an excellent piece on that sort of saying, Remember, it's the words that go around the buzzword that matter, you know, just as much. But what we can say unequivocally is that two very important touchstones that kind of explain their thinking on their perception of not only their external environment, but really kind of their internal environment, which had been in the last several political reports, now are gone. And those are this idea of China's enjoying a period of strategic opportunity and this idea that peace and development are the underlying trend of the times. And, you know, on the period of strategic opportunity, I think it's important for a couple reasons. One, just to kind of break that down for our listeners in a way that's not, you know, sort of, uh, CCP speak, , uh, the, the basic idea was that China judged that it's external security environment was sufficiently benign, that they could focus their energies on economic development.Right? So obviously that's very important. I also think it was an important governor, and I don't think I've seen anything out there talking about its absence in this, uh, political report on this topic, It was a, it was an important governor on sort of breakneck Chinese military development, sort of like the Soviet Union, right?In other words, as long as you were, you know, sort of judging that your external environment was largely benign, you. Didn't really have a justification to have a massive defense budget or to be pushy, you know, in the neighborhood, these sort of things. And people might poo poo that and sort of say, Well, you know, this is all just rhetoric and so on. No, they actually tend to Bill: Oh, that's interesting. Well, then that fits a little bit, right, Cuz they added the, the wording around strategic deterrence in the report as well  which is seen as a, you know, modernizing, expanding their nuclear forces, right?Chris: Exactly, right. So, you know, that's, uh, an important absence and the fact that, you know, the word, again, word searching, right. Um, strategic and opportunity are both in there, but they're separated and balanced by this risks and challenges, languages and, and so on. Bill: Right the language is very starkly different. Chris: Yeah. And then likewise on, on peace and development. This one, as you know, is, is even older, right? It goes back to the early eighties, I believe, uh, that it's been in, in these political reports. And, uh, you know, there again, the idea was sort of not only was this notion that peace and economic development were the dominant, you know, sort of trend internationally, globally, they would be an enduring one. You know, this idea of the trend of the times, right? Um, now that's missing. So what has replaced it in both these cases is this spirit of struggle, right? Um, and so that's a pretty stark departure and that in my mind just sort of is a real throwback to what you could call the period of maximum danger for the regime in the sixties, right? When they had just split off with the Soviets and they were still facing unremitting hostility from the west after the Korean War experience and, and so on. So, you know, there's definitely a, a decided effort there. I think also we should view the removal of these concepts as a culmination of a campaign that Xi Jinping has been on for a while.You know, as you and I have discussed many times before, from the minute he arrived, he began, I think, to paint this darker picture of the exterior environment. And he seems to have always wanted to create a sort of sense of urgency, certainly maybe even crisis. And I think a big part of that is to justifying the power grab, right? If the world outside is hostile, you need, you know, a strongman. Bill: Well that was a lot of the propaganda going into the Party of Congress about the need for sort of a navigator helmsman because know, we we're, we're closest we have ever been to the great rejuvenation, but it's gonna be really hard and we need sort of strong leadership right. It was, it was all building to that. This is why Ci needs to stay for as long as he wants to stay.Chris: and I think we saw that reflected again just the other day in this Long People's Daily piece by Ding Xuexing, right, Where he's talking again about the need for unity, the throwback, as you mentioned in your newsletter to Mao's commentary, there is not to be lost on any of us you know, the fact that the Politburo standing committee's. Uh, first field trip is out to Yan'an, right? I mean, you know, these are messages, right? The aren't coincidental.Bill: No, it, it is. The thing that's also about the report that's interesting is that while there was, speaking of word counts, there was no mention of the United States, but it certainly feels like that was the primary backdrop for this entire discussion around. So the, the shifting geopolitical, uh, assessments and this broader, you know, and I think one of the things that I, and I want to talk to as we get into this, a little bit about US China relations, but is it she has come to the conclusion that the US is implacably effectively hostile, and there is no way that they're gonna get through this without some sort of a broader struggle?Chris: I don't know if they, you know, feel that conflict is inevitable. In fact, I kind of assume they don't think that because that's pretty grim picture for them, you know? Um, but I, I do think there's this notion that. They've now had two years to observe the Biden administration. Right? And to some degree, I think it's fair to say that by certain parties in the US, Xi Jinping, maybe not Xi Jinping, but a Wang Qishan or some of these characters were sold a bit of a bag of goods, right?Oh, don't worry, he's not Trump, he's gonna, things will be calmer. We're gonna get back to dialogue and you know, so on and so forth. And that really hasn't happened. And when we look at. Um, when we look at measures like the recent, chip restrictions, which I'm sure we'll discuss at some point, you know, that would've been, you know, the, the wildest dream, right of certain members of the Trump administration to do something that, uh, that's that firm, right? So, um, I think the conclusion of the Politburo then must be, this is baked into the cake, right? It's bipartisan. Um, the earliest we'll see any kind of a turn here is 2024. I think they probably feel. Um, and therefore suddenly things like a no limits partnership with Russia, right, start to make more sense. Um, but would really makes sense in that if that is your framing, and I think it is, and you therefore see the Europeans as like a swing, right, in this equation. This should be a great visit, right, for Chancellor Scholz, uh, and uh, I can't remember if it was you I was reading or someone else here in the last day or so, but this idea that if the Chinese are smart, they would get rid of these sanctions on Bill: That was me. Well, that was in my newsletterChris: Yeah. Parliamentary leaders and you know, Absolutely. Right. You know, that's a no brainer, but. I don't think they're gonna do it , but, but you know, this idea definitely that, and, and when they talk in the political report, you know, it, it's, it's like, sir, not appearing in this film, right, from Money Python, but we know who the people who are doing the bullying, you know, uh, is and the long armed jurisdiction and , so on and so forth and all, I mean, all kidding aside, I think, you know, they will see something like the chip restrictions effectively as a declaration of economic war. I don't think that's going too far to say that.Bill: It goes to the heart of their sort of technological project around rejuvenation. I mean, it is, it is a significant. sort of set of really kind of a, I would think, from the Chinese perspective aggressive policies against them,Chris: Yeah, and I mean, enforcement will be key and we'll see if, you know, licenses are granted and how it's done. And we saw, you know, already some, some backing off there with regard to this US person, uh, restriction and so on. But, but you know, it's still pretty tough stuff. There's no two ways aboutBill: No, and I, I wonder, and I worry that here in DC. You know, where the mood is very hawkish. If, if people here really fully appreciate sort of the shift that's taking, that seems to be taking place in Beijing and how these actions are viewed.Chris: Well, I, I think that's a really, you put your hand on it really, really interesting way, Bill, because, you know, let's face it really since the Trump trade war started, right? We've all analysts, you know, pundits, uh, even businesses and government people have been sort of saying, you know, when are the Chinese gonna punch back? You know, when are they going to retaliate? Right? And we talk about rare earths and we talk about Apple and TeslaBill: They slapped some sanctions on people but they kind of a jokeChris:  And I guess what I'm saying is I kind of worry we're missing the forest from the trees. Right. You know, the, the, the work report tells us, the political report tells us how they're reacting. Right. And it is hardening the system, moving toward this fortress economy, you know, so on and so forth. And I wanna be real clear here, you know, they're not doing this just because they're reacting to the United States. Xi Jinping presumably wanted to do this all along, but I don't think we can say that the actions they perceive as hostile from the US aren't playing a pretty major role in allowing him to accelerate.Bill: Well, they called me. Great. You justifying great Accelerationist, right? Trump was called that as well, and, and that, that's what worries me too, is we're in. Kind of toxic spiral where, where they see us doing something and then they react. We see them do something and we react and, and it doesn't feel like sort of there's any sort of a governor or a break and I don't see how we figure that out.Chris: Well, I think, you know, and I'm sure we'll come to this later in our discussion, but you know, uh, yes, that's true, but you know, I'm always deeply skeptical of these inevitability memes, whether it's, you know, Thucydides trap or, you know, these other things. Last time I checked, there is something called political agency, right?In other words, leaders can make choices and they can lead if they want to, right? They have an opportunity to do so at in Bali, and you know, we'll have to see some of the, you know, early indications are perhaps they're looking at sort of a longer meeting. So that would suggest maybe there will be some discussion of some of these longstanding issues.Maybe we will see some of the usual, you know, deliverable type stuff. So there's an opportunity. I, I think one question is, can the domestic politics on either side allow for seizing that opportunity? You know, that's an open.Bill: Interesting. There's a couple things in the party constitution, which I think going into the Congress, you know, they told us they were gonna amend the Constitution. There were expectations that it, the amendments were gonna reflect an increase in Xi's power, uh, things like this, this idea of the two establishments, uh, which for listeners are * "To establish the status of Comrade Xi Jinping as the core of the Party's Central Committee and of the whole Party"* "To establish the guiding role of Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for the New Era"The thinking, and I, I certainly believe that, I thought that they would write that in. There was some talk that, uh, Xi Jinping Thought the longer version would be truncated to just Xi Jinping thought. that possibly he might get, a, a sort of another title like People's Leader. None of those happened. One thing that did happen, What's officially translated by the Chinese side in English as the two upholds- “Uphold the 'core' status of General Secretary Xi Jinping within the CC and “Uphold the centralized authority of the Party” those were written in. And so the question is, was there some kind of pushback or are we misreading we what mattered? And actually the two upholds are more important than the two of establishes.Chris: Well, I, and I think it, this may be a multiple choice answer, right? There might be elements of all the above in there. Uh, you know, I think it is important that he didn't get the truncation to Xi Jinping thought. You have to think that that was something he was keen on. In retrospect, it may be that it was something akin. I've always felt, you know, another thing that was on the table that didn't happen was reestablishing the party chairmanship. My view had always been he was using that largely as a bargaining chip. That, you know, in some ways it creates more trouble than it's worth you. If you're gonna have a chairman, you probably have to have vice chairman and what does that say about the succession? I mean, of course he could have, you know, a couple of geezers on there.  as vice chairman too. , But I, my view was always is he was holding that out there to trade away. Right. You know, at, at the last minute. Um, maybe that's what happened with Xi Jinping thought. I don't know.You know, uh, there have been some media articles, one of which, You and I were discussing yesterday from, uh, the Japanese, uh, publication Nikkei, you know, that suggested that, you know, the elders had, this was their last gasp, right? So the Jiang Zemins and the Zeng Qinghongs and Hu Jinataos, so on. Um, I'm a little skeptical of that. It is possible. Uh, but, um, I, I'd be a little skeptical of that. You know, it's, it's not at all clear that they had any kind of a role, you know, even at Beidaihe this year and so on, Jiang Zemin didn't even attend the Party Congress so clearly, you know, he must be pretty frail or he thought it was not with his time. You know, a little hard to say, but, you know, I kind of struggle with the notion that, you know, the 105 year old Song Ping gets up on a chair or something and starts,  starts making trouble. Right. You know, uh, the poor man's probably lucky if he stays awake during the meeting. Bill: One question, and again, because of the, just, you know, how much more opaque Chinese politics are than the really I think they've ever been. Um, but just one question. It mean, is it possible, for example, that you know, it's more important to get the personnel done. It's more, and then once you get your, you stack the central committee, you get the politburo, you get the standing committee, that these things are sort of a next phase.Chris: yeah, it's entirely possible and, and I think it, it, it does dovetail with this idea that, you know, another reflection from both the political report and the lineup in my mind, is Xi Jinping is a man in a hurry. Right? And he's kind of projected that, as you said, the great accelerator since he arrived.But I think he sees this next five years is really fundamental, right in terms of breaking through on these chokepoint technologies as they call them. You know, these sort of things. And so maybe therefore having the right people in place to handle, you know, uh, speedier policy, execution, you know, was more important.Likewise, I mean, he's sort of telegraphing, He's gonna be around for a while, right? No successor, no visible successor anywhere. Bill: A successor would need likely need five years on the standing committee. So we're looking at ten more years.Chris: Yes, exactly. And so there will be time. The other thing is, um, Xi Jinping is a, is a sort of determined fellow, right? You know, so of interest, even before the 19th Party Congress, I'd been hearing very strong rumors that the notion of lingxiu was out there, that he was contemplating it, right? And so then we see the buildup with, uh, Renmin lingxiu and so on and so forth.And, you know, it didn't happen clearly at the 19th. It didn't happen. But it doesn't mean it won't, you know, at some point. And I think it's really important also to think about, you know, We just saw a pretty serious, um, enterprise of the, you know, quote unquote norm busting, right? So what's to say that mid-course in this five years, he doesn't, uh, hold another sort of extraordinary conference of party delegates like them, Deng Xiaoping did in 1985, right, to push through some of these. You never know, right? In other words, these things don't necessarily have to happen. Just at Party Congresses. So my guess is, you know, this isn't over yet. Uh, but you know, at some level, given how the system was ramping up with those articles about Navigator and the people's leader stuff and so on, you know, that's usually a tell, and yet it didn't happen. And, and so something interesting there. Bill: now they're in the mode of, they're out with these sort of publicity, propaganda education teams where they go out throughout the country and talk about the spirit of the party Congress and push all the key messaging. Um, you know, so far none of those People's leader truncation have happened in that, which is I think an area where some people thought, Well, maybe that could sort of come after the Congress.Chris: What is interesting is it's all two establishments all the time in those discussions, so that's been very interesting since it didn't make it into the, uh, into the document. I guess the other thing is, At some level, is it sort of a distinction without a difference? You know, I, I haven't done the work on this to see, but my guess is short of, you know, the many times they've just junked the entire constitution and rewritten it, this is probably the most amendments there have been, you know, in the to at one time. You know, to the 1982 constitution, and most of them are his various buzzwords. Right. Um, and you know, I think you've been talking about this in the newsletter, there may very well be, uh, something to this issue of, you know, which is the superior thought two establishments or to upholds/safeguards?Bill: and even if the two establishes were superior and then it didn't go in, then somehow it will be theoretically flipped to what got in the ConstitutionChris: I mean, I guess the, the, the thing though where we, it's fair to say that maybe this wasn't his ideal outcome. To me, there's been a very clear and you know, structured stepwise approach on the ideology from the word go. Right? And the first was to create right out of the shoot, this notion of, you know, three eras, right?The, Mao period, Deng  and those other guys we don't talk about it anymore, period.  and Xi Jinping's new era, right? And then that was. You know, sort of crystallized right at the 19th Party Congress when you know, Xi Jinping thought for horribly long name went into the Constitution. And so, you know, the next step kind of seemed like that should be it.And as we've discussed before, you know, if he's able to get just Thought, it certainly enhances his ability to stay around for a very long time and it makes his diktats and so on even more unquestionable. But you know, you can say again, matter of prioritization. With a team where there's really no visible or other opposition, does it really matter? You know, in other words, no one's gonna be questioning his policy ideas anyway.Bill: Just an aside, but on  his inspection, the new standing committee will go on group trip right after the Party Congress and the first trip sends key messages. And group went to Yan'an, you know, they went, they went to the caves. Um, and you know, in the long readout or long CCTV report of the meeting, the visit, there was a section where the tour guide or the person introducing some of the exhibits talked about how the, the famous song, the East Is Red was,  by a person, written by the people sort of spontaneously, and it w it definitely caused some tittering about, well, what are they trying to signal for?You know, are we gonna be seeing some  Xi songs? there's some kind of really interesting signaling going on that I don't think we quite have figured out how to parse Chris: My takeaway on all this has been, I, I need to go back and do a little more book work on, you know, what was, what was the content of the seventh party Congress? What were the outcomes? I mean, I have the general sense, right? Like you, I immediately, you know, started brushing up on it. But, you know, Xi delivered a, an abridged work report. Right, A political report, which is exactly what Mao did then. I mean, in other words, they're not kidding around with the parallelism here. The question is what's the message?Bill: Just for background, at the visit last week to Yan'an, and the first spot that was in the propaganda was the, the, site of the seventh party Congress which is where…to be very simplistic, the seventh party was really moment, you know, as at the end of the Yan'am rectification came in, it was the moment where sort of Mao fully asserted his dominance throughout the system. Mao Thought etc. Right? The signaling, you could certainly, could certainly take a view that, you know, he doesn't do these things by coincidence, and this is. This is signaling both of, you know, can through anything because they, livedin caves and ended up beating the Japanese and then won the Civil War. You know this, and we can, and by the way, we have a dominant leader. I mean, there are ways, again, I'm being simplistic, but the symbolism was not, I think one that would, for example, give a lot of confidence to investors, which I think is, you know, one, one of the many reasons we've seen until the rumors earlier this week, a, pretty big selloff in the, in the Hong Kong and manland stock markets rightChris: most definitely. And I think, you know, this is the other thing about, about what I was trying to get at earlier with, uh, forest and trees, right? You know, in other words, . Um, he's been at this for a while too. You know, there's a reason why he declared a new long march right in depths of the trade war with Trump.Bill: And a new historical resolution, only the third in historyChris: Yeah. And they have been stepwise building since then. And this is the next building block.Bill: The last thought, I mean, he is 69. He's. 10 years younger than President Joe Biden. He could go, he could be around for a long timeBill: well just quickly, cause I know, uh, we don't have that much more time, but I, you say anything about your thoughts on Hu Jintao and what happened?My first take having had a father and a stepfather had dementia was, um, you know, maybe too sympathetic to the idea that, okay, he's having some sort of a senior cognitive moment. You know, you can get. easily agitated, and you can start a scene. And so therefore, was humiliating and symbolic at the end of the Communist Youth League faction, but maybe it was, it was benign as opposed to some of the other stuff going around. But I think might be wrong so I'd love your take on that.  Chris: Well, I, I think, you know, I, I kind of shared your view initially when I watched the, uh, I guess it was an AFP had the first, you know, sort of video that was out there and, you know, he appeared to be stumbling around a bit. He definitely looked confused and, you know, like, uh, what we were discussing earlier on another subject, this could be a multiple choice, you know, A and B or whatever type scenario as well.We don't know, I mean, it seems pretty well established that he has Parkinson's, I think the lead pipe pincher for me though, was that second longer one Singapore's channel, Channel News Asia put out. I mean, he is clearly tussling with Li Zhanshu about something, right. You know that that's. Yes, very clear. And you know, if he was having a moment, you know, when they finally get him up out of the chair and he seems to be kind of pulling back and so on, you know, he moves with some alacrity there,  for an 80 year old guy. Uh, I don't know if he was being helped to move quickly or he, you know, realized it was time to exit stage.Right. But I think, you know, as you said in your newsletter, I, we probably will never know. Um, but to me it looked an awful lot like an effort by Xi Jinping to humiliate him. You know, I mean, there was a reason why they brought the cameras back in at that moment, you know? Unless we believe that that just happened spontaneously in terms of Hu Jintao has his freak out just as those cameras were coming back in the stone faces of the other members of the senior leadership there on the rostrum and you know, Wand Hunting, pulling Li Zhanshu back down kind of saying basically, look buddy, this is politics, don't you don't wanna, that's not a good look for you trying to care for Hu Jintao. You know, I mean obviously something was going on, you know? No, no question. Bill: Right. And feeds into  the idea that Hu Chunhua, we all expected that he at least be on the Politburo again, and he's, he's off, so maybe something, something was going Chris: Well, I, I think what we know from observing Xi Jinping, right? We know that this is a guy who likes to keep people off balance, right? Who likes to keep the plate spinning. He, this is definitely the Maoist element of his personality, you know, whether it's strategic disappearances or this kind of stuff. And I think it's entirely plausible that he might have made some last minute switches right, to, uh, the various lists that were under consideration that caused alarm, you know, among those who thought they were on a certain list and  and no longer were.Bill: and then, and others who were smart enough to realize that if he made those switches, they better just go with it.Chris: Yeah, go along with it. Exactly. I mean, you know, in some ways the most, aside from what happened to Hu Jintao, the, the most, um, disturbing or compelling, depending on how you wanna look at it, part of that video is when Hu Jintao, you know, sort of very, um, delicately taps Li Keqiang on the shoulder. He doesn't even look at it, just keeps looking straight ahead. Uh, and that's tough. And as you pointed out in the newsletter and elsewhere, you know, how difficult must have that have been for Hu Jintao's son Hu Haifeng, who's in the audience watching this all go on? You know, it's, uh, it's tough. Bill: And then two two days later attends a meeting where he praises Xi to high heaven.Chris: Yeah, exactly. So, so if the darker narrative is accurate, I guess one thing that concerns me a bit is, as you know, well, I have never been a fan of these, uh, memes about comparing Xi Jinping to either Stalin or Mao in part because I don't see him as a whimsical guy. They were whimsical people. I think because of his tumultuous upbringing, he understands the problems with that kind of an approach to life, but this was a very ruthless act. If that more malign, you know, sort of definition is true and that I think that says something about his mentality that perhaps should concern us if that's the case. Bill: It has real implications, not just for domestic also potentially for its foreign policy.Chris: Absolutely. I mean, what it shows, right to some degree, again, man in a hurry, this is a tenacious individual, right?  if he's willing to do that. And so if you're gonna, you know, kick them in the face on chips and, you know, things like that, um, you should be taking that into consideration.Bill: And I think preparing for a more substantive response  that is more thought out and it's also, it happened, it wasn't very Confucian for all this talk Confucian definitely not. and values. One last question, and it is related is what do you make of this recent upsurge or talk in DC from various officials that PRC has accelerated its timeline to absorb Taiwan, because nothing in the public documents indicates any shift in that timeline.Chris: No. Uh, and well, first of all, do they, do they have a timeline? Right? You know, I mean, the whole idea of a timeline is kind of stupid, right? You don't, if you're gonna invade somewhere, you say, Hey, we're gonna do it on on this date. I mean, 2049. Okay. Bill: The only timeline that I think you can point to is is it the second centenary goal and, and Taiwan getting quote unquote, you know, returning Taiwan to the motherland's key to the great rejuvenation,Chris: Yeah, you can't have rejuvenation without it. Bill: So then it has to be done by 2049. 27 years, but they've never come out and specifically said 27 years or 2049. But that's what No. that's I think, is where the timeline idea comes from.Chris: Oh yes, definitely. And, and I think some confusion of. What Xi Jinping has clearly set out and reaffirmed in the political report as these important, um, operational benchmarks for the PLA, the People's Liberation Army to achieve by its hundredth anniversary in 2027. But that does not a go plan for Taiwan make, you know, And so it's been confusing to me trying to understand this. And of course, you know, I, I'm joking, but I'm not, you know, if we, if we listen now to the chief of naval operations of the US Navy, you know, like they're invading tomorrow, basically.My former colleague from the CIA, John Culver's, done some very, you know, useful public work on this for the Carnegie, where he sort his endowment, where he sort of said, you know, look, there's certain things we would have to see, forget about, you know, a D-day style invasion, any type of military action that, that you don't need intelligence methods to find out. Right. You know, uh, canceling, uh, conscription, demobilization cycles, you know, those, those sort of things. Um, we don't see that happening. So I've been trying to come to grips with why the administration seems fairly seized with this and and their public commentary and so on. What I'm confident of is there's no smoking gun you know, unlike, say the Russia piece where it appears, we had some pretty compelling intelligence. There doesn't seem to be anything that says Xi Jinping has ordered invasion plans for 2024, you know, or, or, or even 2027. Um, so I'm pretty confident that's not the case. And so then it becomes more about an analytic framework. And I, from what I can tell, it's seems to be largely based on what, uh, in, you know, the intelligence community we would call calendar-int.. calendar intelligence. In other words, you know, over the next 18 months, a lot of stuff's going to happen. We're gonna have our midterm elections next week. It's pretty likely the Republicans get at least one chamber of Congress, maybe both.That would suggest that things like the Taiwan Policy Act and, you know, really, uh, things that have, uh, Beijing's undies in a bunch, uh, you know, could really come back on, uh, the radar pretty forcibly and pretty quickly. Obviously Taiwan, nobody talks about it, but Taiwan's having municipal elections around the same time, and normally that would be a very inside Taiwan baseball affair, nobody would care. But the way that KMT ooks like they will not perform, I should say,  in those municipal elections. They could be effectively wiped out, you know, as a, as a sort of electable party in Taiwan. That's not a good news story for Beijing.And then of course we have our own presidential in 2024 and Taiwan has a presidential election in 24 in the US case.I mean, look, we could end up with a President Pompeo, right? Or a President DeSantis or others who. Been out there sort of talking openly about Taiwan independence and recognizing Taiwan. And similarly, I think whoever succeeds, uh, President Tsai in Taiwan, if we assume it will likely be a a, a Democratic Progressive party president, will almost by definition be more independence oriented.So I think the administration is saying there's a lot of stuff that's gonna get the Chinese pretty itchy, you know, over this next 18 month period. So therefore we need to be really loud in our signaling to deter. Right. And okay. But I think there's a risk with that as well, which they don't seem to be acknowledging, which is you might create a self-fulfilling prophecy.I mean, frankly, that's what really troubles me about the rhetoric. And so, for example, when Secretary Blinken last week or the before came out and said  Yeah, you know, the, the, the Chinese have given up on the status quo. I, I, I've seen nothing, you know, that would suggest that the political report doesn't suggest. Bill: They have called it a couple of times  so-called status quo.Chris: Well, Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. That's, that's fine. Um, but I think if we look at the reason why they're calling it the so-called status quo, it's because it's so called now because the US has been moving the goalposts on the status quo.Yeah. In terms of erosion of the commitment to the one China policy. And the administration can say all at once, they're not moving the goal post, but they are, I mean, let's just be honest.Bill: Now, and they have moved it more than the Trump administration did, don't you think?Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. Um, you know, no president has said previously we will defend Taiwan  multiple times. Right. You know, um, and things like, uh, you know, Democracy, someone, I mean, this comes back also to the, the framing, right, of one of the risks I think of framing the relationship as democracy versus autocracy is that it puts a very, uh, heavy incentive then for the Biden administration or any future US administration to, you know, quote unquote play the Taiwan card, right, as part of said competition.Whereas if you don't have that framing, I don't think that's necessarily as automatic. Right? In other words, if that's the framing, well Taiwan's a democracy, so we have to lean in. Right? You know? Whereas if it's a more say, you know, straight realist or national interest driven foreign policy, you might not feel that in every instance you've gotta do that,Bill: No, and and I it, that's an interesting point. And I also think too that, um, I really do wonder how much Americans care, right? And, and whether or not we're running the risk of setting something up or setting something in motion that, you know, again, it's easy to be rhetorical about it, but that we're frankly not ready to deal withChris: Well, and another thing that's interesting, right, is that, um, to that point, Some of the administration's actions, you know, that are clearly designed to show toughness, who are they out toughing? You know, in some cases it feels like they're out toughing themselves, right? I mean, obviously the Republicans are watching them and so on and all of that.Um, but you know, interesting, uh, something that came across my thought wave the other day that I hadn't really considered. We're seeing pretty clear indications that a Republican dominated Congress after the midterms may be less enthusiastic about support to Ukraine, we're all assuming that they're gonna be all Taiwan support all the time.Is that a wrong assumption? You know, I mean, in other words, Ukraine's a democracy, right? And yet there's this weird strain in the Trumpist Wing of the Republican party that doesn't wanna spend the money. Right. And would that be the case for Taiwan as well? I don't know, but you know, the point is, I wonder if the boogieman of looking soft is, is sort of in their own heads to some degree.And, and even if it isn't, you know, sometimes you have to lead. Bill: it's not clear the allies are listening. It doesn't sound like the Europeans would be on board withChris: I think very clearly they're not. I mean, you know, we're about to see a very uncomfortable bit of Kabuki theater here, aren't we? In the next couple of days with German Chancellor Sholz going over and, um, you know, if you, uh, read the op-ed he wrote in Politico, you know, it's, it's painful, right? You can see him trying to, uh, Trying to, uh, you know, straddle the fence and, and walk that line.And, and obviously there are deep, deep divisions in his own cabinet, right? You know, over this visit, the foreign minister is publicly criticizing him, you know, and so on. So I think this is another aspect that might be worrisome, which is the approach. You know, my line is always sort of a stool, if it's gonna be stable, needs three legs, right.And on US-China relations, I think that is, you know, making sure our own house is in order. Domestic strengthening, these guys call it, coordinating with allies and partners, certainly. But then there's this sort of talking to the Chinese aspect and through a policy, what I tend to call strategic avoidance, we don't.Talk to them that much. So that leg is missing. So then those other two legs need to be really strong. Right. Um, and on domestic strengthening, Okay. Chips act and so on, that's good stuff. On allies and partners, there seems to be a bit of an approach and I think the chip restrictions highlight this of, look, you're either for us or against us.Right? Whereas I think in, you know, the good old Cold War I, we seem to be able to understand that a West Germany could do certain things for us vis-a-vis the Soviets and certain things they couldn't and we didn't like it and we complained, but we kind of lived with it, right? If we look at these chip restrictions, it appears the administration sort of said, Look, we've been doing this multilateral diplomacy on this thing for a year now, it's not really delivering the goods. The chips for framework is a mess, so let's just get it over with and drag the allies with us, you know? Um, and we'll see what ramifications that will have.Bill: Well on that uplifting note, I, I think I'm outta questions. Is there anything else you'd like to add?Chris: Well, I think, you know, something just to consider is this idea, you know, and maybe this will help us close on a more optimistic note. Xi Jinping is telling us, you know, he's hardening the system, he's, he's doing this fortress economy thing and so on. But he also is telling us, I have a really difficult set of things I'm trying to accomplish in this five years.Right? And that may mean a desire to signal to the us let's stabilize things a bit, not because he's having a change of heart or wants a fundamental rapprochement, so on and so forth. I don't think that's the case, but might he want a bit of room, right? A breathing room. Bill: Buy some time, buy some spaceChris: Yeah, Might he want that? He might. You know, and so I think then a critical question is how does that get sorted out in the context of the negotiations over the meeting in Bali, if it is a longer meeting, I think, you know, so that's encouraging for that. Right. To some degree. I, I, I would say, you know, if we look at what's just happened with the 20th party Congress and we look at what's about to happen, it seems with our midterms here in the United States, Who's the guy who's gonna be more domestically, politically challenged going into this meeting, and therefore have less room to be able to seize that opportunity if it does exist.Exactly. Because I, I think, you know, the, the issue is, The way I've been framing it lately, you know, supposedly our position is the US position is strategic competition and China says, look, that's inappropriate, and we're not gonna sign onto it and forget it.You know, my own view is we kind of have blown past strategic competition where now in what I would call strategic rivalry, I think the chip restrictions, you know, are, are a giant exclamation point, uh, under that, you know, and so on. And my concern is we're kind of rapidly headed toward what I would call strategic enmity.And you know, that all sounds a bit pedantic, but I think that represents three distinct phases of the difficulty and the relationship. You know, strategic enmity is the cold, the old Cold War, what we had with the Soviets, right? So we are competing against them in a brass tax manner across all dimensions. And if it's a policy that, you know, hurts us, but it hurts them, you know, 2% more we do it, you know, kind of thing. I don't think we're there yet. And the meeting offers an opportunity to, you know, arrest the travel from strategic rivalry to strategic enmity. Let's see if there's something there/Bill: And if, and if we don't, if it doesn't arrest it, then I think the US government at least has to do a much better job of explaining to the American people why we're headed in this direction and needs  to do a much better job with the allies cuz because again, what I worry about is we're sort of heading down this path and it doesn't feel like we've really thought it through.You know, there are lots of reasons  be on this path, but there's also needs to be a much more of a comprehensive understanding of the, of the costs and the ramifications and the solutions and have have an actual sort of theory of the case about how we get out the other side of this in a, in a better way.Chris: Yeah, I think that's important. I want to be real, um, fair to the administration. You know, they're certainly more thoughtful and deliberative than their predecessor. Of course, the bar was low, but, um, you know, they, they seem to approach these things in a pretty. Dedicated and careful manner. And I think they really, you know, take, take things like, uh, looking at outbound investment restrictions, you know, my understanding is they have been, you know, seeking a lot of input about unintended consequences and so on. But then you look at something like the chips piece and it just seems to me that those in the administration who had been pushing for, you know, more there for some time, had a quick moment where they basically said, look, this thing's not working with multilaterally, Let's just do it, you know? And then, oh, now we're seeing the second and third and other order consequences of it. And the risk is that we wind up, our goal is to telegraph unity to Beijing and shaping their environment around them as the administration calls it. We might be signaling our disunity, I don't know, with the allies, and obviously that would not be a good thingBill: That's definitely a risk. Well, thanks Chris. It's always great to talk to you and Thank you for listening to the occasional Sinocism podcast. Thank you, Chris.Chris: My pleasure. Sinocism is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sinocism.com/subscribe

Episode Notes:This episode's guest is David Rennie, the Beijing bureau chief for The Economist and author of the weekly Chaguan column. Our topic is online discourse, nationalism, the intensifying contest for global discourse power and US-China relations.Excerpts:I spoke to some very serious NGO people who've been in China a long time, Chinese and foreigners who said that this was the worst time for NGOs since 1989, and the kind of mentions of espionage and national security was a very serious thing. So then I had to make a decision, was I going to try and speak to someone like Sai Lei. Clearly he is an extremely aggressive nationalist, some would call him a troll and there are risks involved in talking to someone like him. But I felt, I'm one of the few English language media still in China, if I'm going to add value, I need to speak to these people.I had a very interesting conversation with a CGTN commentator…He said, I can't tell you how many Western diplomats, or Western journalists they whine. And they moan. And they say, how aggressive China is now and how upset all this Wolf warrior stuff is and how China is doing itself damage. And he goes, we're not, it's working. You in the Western media, used to routinely say that the national people's Congress was a rubber stamp parliament. And because we went after you again and again, you see news organizations no longer as quick to use that. Because we went after you calling us a dictatorship, you're now slower to use that term because we went after you about human rights and how it has different meanings in different countries. We think it's having an effect…One of the things I think is a value of being here is you have these conversations where the fact that we in the West think that China is inevitably making a mistake by being much more aggressive. I don't think that's how a big part of the machine here sees it. I think they think it worked….To simplify and exaggerate a bit, I think that China, and this is not just a guess, this is based on off the record conversations with some pretty senior Chinese figures, they believe that the Western world, but in particular, the United States is too ignorant and unimaginative and Western centric, and probably too racist to understand that China is going to succeed, that China is winning and that the West is in really decadent decline…I think that what they believe they are doing is delivering an educational dose of pain and I'm quoting a Chinese official with the word pain. And it is to shock us because we are too mule headed and thick to understand that China is winning and we are losing. And so they're going to keep delivering educational doses of pain until we get it…The fundamental message and I'm quoting a smart friend of mine in Beijing here is China's rise is inevitable. Resistance is futile…And if you accommodate us, we'll make it worth your while. It's the key message. And they think that some people are proving dimmer and slower and more reluctant to pick that message up and above all Americans and Anglo-Saxons.On US-China relations:The general trend of U.S. China relations. to be of optimistic about the trend of U.S. China relations I'd have to be more optimistic than I currently am about the state of U.S. Politics. And there's a kind of general observation, which is that I think that American democracy is in very bad shape right now. And I wish that some of the China hawks in Congress, particularly on the Republican side, who are also willing to imply, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was massive fraud every time they say that stuff, they're making an in-kind contribution to the budget of the Chinese propaganda department…You cannot be a patriotic American political leader and tell lies about the state of American democracy. And then say that you are concerned about China's rise…..their message about Joe Biden is that he is weak and old and lacks control of Congress. And that he is, this is from scholars rather than officials, I should say, but their view is, why would China spend political capital on the guy who's going to lose the next election?…The one thing that I will say about the U.S. China relationship, and I'm very, very pessimistic about the fact that the two sides, they don't share a vision of how this ends well.Links:China’s online nationalists turn paranoia into clickbait | The Economist 赛雷：我接受了英国《经济学人》采访，切身体验了深深的恶意 David Rennie on Twitter @DSORennieTranscript:You may notice a couple of choppy spots. We had some Beijing-VPN issues and so had to restart the discussion three times. Bill:Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the `Sinocism podcast. It's been a bit of a break, but we are back and we will continue going forward on a fairly regular schedule today. For the fourth episode, I'm really happy to be able to chat with David Rennie, the Beijing bureau chief for The Economist and author of the weekly Chaguan column. Our topic today is online discourse, nationalism, and the intensifying contest for global discourse power.Bill:I've long been a fan of David's work and the approximate cause for inviting him to join the podcast today was an article on the January 8th issue of The Economist on online nationalism. Welcome David.David:Hello.Bill:So just to start, could you tell us how you got to where you are today?David:I've been a foreign correspondent for frighteningly long time, 24 years. And it's my second China posting. I've been out there so long. I've done two Chinas, two Washingtons, five years in Brussels. I was here in the '90s and then I went off, spent a total of nine years in Washington, DC. And then I came back here in 2018 and I was asked to launch a new column about China called Chaguan, because previously I wrote our Lexington column and our Bagehot column about Britain and our Charlemagne column about Europe. They all have strange names, but that's what we do. And so this is my fourth column for The Economist.Bill:We last met, I think in 2018 in Beijing in what seems like before times in many ways at The Opposite House, I believe.David:And the days when we had visitors, people came from the outside world, all of those things.Bill:Yes. You are quite the survivor, as they say. Although there are advantages to not worry about walking outside and getting sick all the time. Although it's better here in DC now.David:It's a very safe bubble. It's a very large bubble, but it's a bubble.Bill:So let's talk about your article, the January 8th issue. It was titled “China's online nationalist turned paranoia into click bait”. And I thought it was a very good distillation of the surge in nationalists and anti foreign content that is really flooding or was flooded the internet in China. And you interviewed one of the people who's profiting from it because it turns out that not only is it good from a sort of a sentiment perspective, but it's also good from a business perspective.Bill:And that person Sai Lei, interestingly enough, then recorded your conversation and turned it into a whole new post and video about the whole experience of talking to a foreign correspondent. Can you tell us a little about the story and why you chose to write it and just to add the links to David's article and the Sai Lei article will be in the podcast notes.David:So I heard from friends and colleagues, a couple of things in two directions. One was that in the world of private sector media, a couple of reasonably well known explainer sites, popular science video companies had been taken out of business by nationalist attacks. One was called Paperclip, the other called Elephant Union. And their crime in the eyes of online nationalists had been to talk about things which are fairly uncontroversial in Western media, that eating beef from the Amazon or eating beef that is fed soy grown in the Amazon is potentially bad for the rainforest and maybe we should eat less meat.David:But because this was in the Chinese context, that China is the biggest buyer of soybeans, this explainer video was attacked as a plot to deny the Chinese people the protein that they need to be strong, that this was a race traitor attack on the Chinese. And it was outrageous because the West eats so much more meat than China. And so that was one element of it. And I heard that these companies had been shut down. The other was that I'd been picking up that this was an extremely bad time for NGOs, particularly Chinese NGOs that get money from overseas. And we'd seen some really nasty attacks, not just on the idea that they were getting money from overseas, but that they were somehow guilty of espionage.David:And there was an NGO that did incredibly benign work. Tracking maritime and Marine trash, as it floats around the coasts of China based in Shanghai, Rendu Ocean. I'd done a column on them the year before I'd been out with their volunteers. It was a bunch of pensioners and retirees and school kids picking up styrofoam and trash off beaches, weighing it, tracking where it came from and then uploading this data to try and track the fact that China is a big generator of the plastic and other trash in the oceans. They were accused of espionage and taking foreign money to track ocean currents that would help foreign militaries, attack China, that they were guilty of grave national security crimes.David:And they were attacked in a press conference, including at the national defense ministry. And they're basically now in a world of pain. They're still just about clinging on. And so these two things, you have these NGOs under really serious attack, and you also have this attack on online explainer videos. The common theme was that the nationalist attack, they were somehow portraying the country and its national security was a weird combination of not just the security forces, but also private sector, Chinese online nationalists. And in particularly I was told there was a guy called Sai Lei. That's his non to plume who was one of the people making videos taking on these people. He went after celebrities who talked about China should be more careful about eating seafood.David:This was again, sort of race traitors. And he was using this really horrible language about these celebrities who talked about eating more sustainable seafood that they were ‘er guizi”, which is this time about the collaborationist police officers who worked with the Japanese during the World War II. He calls them Hanjian, the s-called traitors to the Chinese race. Very, very loaded language. Went after a group that’s working with Africans down in the south of China, talking about how they faced discrimination. This got them attacked. They had talked also about the role of Chinese merchants in the illegal ivory trade that got them attacked by the nationalists.David:So I thought this question of whether the government is behind this or whether this is a private sector attack on that. There's the profits to be made from this online nationalism struck me something I should write about. So I talked to some of the people whose organizations and companies had been taken down, they were very clear that they thought that was a unholy nexus of profit, clickbait and things like the communist youth league really liking the way that they can turbocharge some of these attacks-Bill:Especially on bilibili, they use that a lot.David:Especially on... Yeah. And so there's this weird sort of sense that, and I spoke to some very serious NGO people who've been in China a long time, Chinese and foreigners who said that this was the worst time for NGOs since 1989, and the kind of mentions of espionage and national security was a very serious thing. So then I had to make a decision, was I going to try and speak to someone like Sai Lei. Clearly he is an extremely aggressive nationalist, some would call him a troll and there are risks involved in talking to someone like him. But I felt, I'm one of the few English language media still in China, if I'm going to add value, I need to speak to these people.David:Yes. And so I reached out to the founder of a big, well known nationalist website who I happen to know. And I said, do you know this guy Sai Lei? And he said, I do, I'll get in touch with him. Sai Lei was very, very anxious about speaking to the Western media. Thought I was going to misquote him. And so eventually we did this deal that he was going to record the whole thing. And that if he thought I had misquoted him, that he was going to run the entire transcript on full on this other very well known nationalist website that had made the introduction. So I said, okay, fine. I have nothing to hide. That's all good. I wrote the column. I quoted Sai Lei. I didn't quote a tremendous amount of Sai Lei because what he said was not especially revealing.David:He was just an extremely paranoid guy. And there was a lot of whataboutism and he was saying, well, how would the American public react if they were told that what they eat damages the Amazon rainforest? And I said, well, they're told that all the time-Bill:All the time.David:It was an incredibly familiar argument. It's on the front page of America newspapers all the time. And so he wasn't willing to engage. And so, I ran this. He then put out this attack on me. It's fair. Look, I make a living handing out my opinions. I knew he was recording me, was it a bit disappointing that he cut and edited it to make me sound as bad as possible rather than running the full transcript. I mean, I interviewed a troll and that was the thing. He attacked me on the basis of my family, which then triggered a whole bunch of stuff that was pretty familiar to me, a lot of wet and journalists get a lot of attacks and it was an unpleasant experience, but I feel that the added value of being here is to talk to people, who The Economist does not agree with.David:And his fundamental problem was that I was using online as a disapproving time. But my line with people like him, or with some of the very prominent nationalists online academics, media entrepreneurs, also with the Chinese foreign ministry, when I'm called in is my job in China is to try to explain how China sees the world. To speak to people in China to let their voices be heard in The Economist. And I absolutely undertake to try and reflect their views faithfully, but I do not promise to agree with them, because The Economist does not hide the fact that we are a Western liberal newspaper. We're not anti-China, we are liberal. And so, if we see illiberall things happening in Abu Ghraib or in Guantanamo Bay or-Bill:DC.David:Being done by Donald Trump or being done by Boris Johnson or Brexit, or Viktor Orbán or in China, we will criticize them because we are what we say we are. We are a liberal newspaper. We have been since 1843. And what's interesting is that online, the reaction was... For a while, I was trending on Bilibili. And that was new. And I take that on the chin. I mean, I'm here, I'm attacking nationalists. They're going to attack back. I think what's interesting is that the online of nationalist attacks were, I hope that the ministry of state security arrest this guy, he should be thrown out of China. Why is he in China? They should be expelled. This guy has no right to be in China.David:I think that at some level, some parts of the central government machinery do still see a value to having newspapers like The Economist, reasonably well read Western media in China. And it's this conversation I've had a lot with the foreign ministry, with the State Council Information Office, which is as you know, it's the front name plate for the propaganda bureau. And I say to them, we are liberals.David:We are not anti-China any more than we're anti-American because we criticize Donald Trump, but you know where we're coming from, but I do believe that if China is concerned about how it's covered, if they throw all of us out, they're not going to get better coverage. I mean, some of the most aggressive coverage about China in the states comes from journalists who never go to China and economists who never go to China. And I think that, that argument resonates with some parts of the machine, to the people whose job is to deal with people like me.David:What I worry about is that there are other parts of the machine, whether it's the Communist Youth League or whether it's the ministry of state security or some other elements in the machine who do also see a tremendous value in delegitimizing Western media full stop, because if you're being criticized and you don't enjoy it. Tactic number one, whether you are Donald Trump talking about fake news, or Vladimir Putin talking about hostile foreign forces, or the Chinese is to delegitimize your critics.David:And I do think that that is going on in a way that in the four years that I've been here this time. And if, I think back to my time here 20 years ago, I do think the attempts to go after and intimidate and delegitimize the Western media they're getting more aggressive and they're trying new tactics, which are pretty concerning.Bill:So that's a great segue into the next question. But first, I just want to ask the nationalist website that you said ran Sai Lei's piece that was Guancha.cn?David:Yeah. And so it's probably not secret, but so I know a bit, Eric Li, Li Shimo, the co-founder Guancha.Bill:Eric actually famous for his TED Talk, went to Stanford business school, venture capitalist. And now, I guess he's affiliated with Fudan, And is quite an active funder of all sorts of online discourse it seems among other things.David:That's right. And I would point out that The Economist, we have this by invitation online debate platform and we invite people to contribute. And we did in fact, run a piece by Eric Li, the co-founder of Guancha, the nationalist website a couple of weeks before this attack, that Guancha ran. And I actually had debate with some colleagues about this, about whether as liberals, we're the suckers that allow people who attack us to write, he wrote a very cogent, but fairly familiar argument about the performance legitimacy, the communist party and how that was superior to Western liberal democracy.David:And I think that it's the price of being a liberal newspaper. If we take that seriously, then we occasionally have to give a platform to people who will then turn around and attack us. And if I'm going to live in China and not see of my family for a very long period of time, and it's a privilege to live in China, but there are costs. If you are an expert, then I'm not ready to give up on the idea of talking to people who we strongly disagree with. If I'm going to commit to living here to me the only reason to do that is so you talk to people, not just liberals who we agree with, but people who strongly disagree with us.Bill:No. And I think that's right. And I think that also ties in for many years, predating Xi Jinping there's been this long stated goal for China to increase its global discourse power as they call it. And to spread more the tell the truth, tell the real story, spread more positive energy about China globally instead of having foreign and especially Western, or I think, and this ties into some of the national stuff increasing what we hear is called the Anglo-Saxons media dominate the global discourse about China. And to be fair, China has a point. I mean, there should be more Chinese voices talking about China globally.Bill:That's not an unreasonable desire, or request from a country as big and powerful as China is. One thing that seems like a problem is on the one hand you've got, the policy makers are pushing to improve and better control discourse about China globally. At the same time, they're increasing their control over the domestic discourse inside the PRC about the rest of the world. And so in some ways, yes, there's an imbalance globally, but there's also a massive imbalance domestically, which seems to fit into what you just went through with Sai Lei and where the trends are. I don't know. I mean, how does China tell a more convincing story to the world in a way that isn't just a constant struggle to use the term they actually use, but more of an actual fact based honest discussion, or is that something that we're just not going to see anytime soon?David:I think there's a couple of elements to that. I mean, you are absolutely right that China like any country has the right to want to draw the attention of the world to stuff that China does. That's impressive. And I do think, one of my arguments when I talk to Chinese officials as to why they should keep giving out visas to people like me is, when I think back to the beginning of the COVID pandemic, I've not left China for more than two years. I've not left since the pandemic began, you had a lot of media writing that this incredibly ferocious crackdown was going to be very unpopular with the Chinese public. And that's because of the very beginning you had people, there lots of stuff on Chinese social media, little videos of people being beaten up by some [inaudible 00:16:26] in a village or tied to a tree, or their doors being welded shot.David:And it did look unbelievably thuggish. And people playing Majiang being arrested. But actually about three weeks into the pandemic, and I was traveling outside Beijing and going to villages and then coming back and doing the quarantine, you'd go into these villages in the middle of Henan or Hunan. And you'd have the earth bomb at the entrance to the village and all the old guys in the red arm bands. And the pitchforks and the school desk, or the entrance to the village with a piece of paper, because you got to have paperwork as well. And you've realized that this incredibly strict grassroots control system that they'd put in motion, the grid management, the fact that the village loud speakers were back up and running and broadcasting propaganda was actually a source of comfort.David:That it gave people a sense that they could do something to keep this frightening disease at bay. And I think to me, that's an absolute example that it's in China's interest to have Western journalists in China because it was only being in China that made me realize that this strictness was actually welcomed by a lot of Chinese people. It made them feel safe and it made them feel that they were contributing to a national course by locking themselves indoors and obeying these sometimes very strange and arbitrary rules. In addition, I think you are absolutely right, China has the right to want the foreign media to report that stuff.David:Instead of looking at China through a Western lens and saying, this is draconian, this is ferocious, this is abuse of human rights. It's absolutely appropriate for China to say no, if you're doing your job properly, you will try and understand this place on China's own terms. You will allow Chinese voices into your reporting and let them tell the world that they're actually comforted by this extremely strict zero COVID policy, which is tremendously popular with the majority of the Chinese public. That is a completely legitimate ambition. And I never failed to take the chance to tell officials that's why they should give visas to have journalists in the country, because if you're not in the country, you can't think that stuff up.David:What I think is much more problematic is that there is alongside that legitimate desire to have China understood on China's own terms, there is a very conscious strategy underway, which is talked about by some of the academics at Fudan who work for Eric Li at Guancha as a discourse war, a narrative war, or to redefine certain key terms.Bill:And the term and the term is really is like struggle. I mean, they see it as a public opinion war globally. I mean, that the language is very martial in Chinese.David:Absolutely. Yeah. And do not say that we are not a democracy. If you say that we are not a democracy, you are ignoring our tremendous success in handling COVID. We are a whole society democracy, which it's basically a performance legitimacy argument, or a collective utilitarian, the maximizing the benefits for the largest number of argument. It's not particularly new, but the aggression with which it's being pushed is new and the extraordinary resources they put into going after Western media for the language that we use of our China. And I had a very interesting conversation with a CGTN commentator who attacked me online, on Twitter and said that I was a... It was sort of like you scratch an English when you'll find a drug dealer or a pirate.David:Now there's a lot of Opium War rhetoric around if you're a British journalist in China. You're never too far from Opium War reference. And for the record, I don't approve of the war, but it was also before my time. So I actually, the guy attacked me fairly aggressively on Twitter. So I said, can you try and be professional? I'm being professional here why won't you be professional. He invited me with coffee. So we had coffee. And we talked about his work for CGTN and for Chaguan and his view of his interactions to Western media. And he said, this very revealing thing. He said, the reason we do this stuff is because it works.David:He said, I can't tell you how many Western diplomats, or Western journalists they whine. And they moan. And they say, how aggressive China is now and how upset all this Wolf warrior stuff is and how China is doing itself damage. And he goes, we're not, it's working. You in the Western media, used to routinely say that the national people's Congress was a rubber stamp parliament. And because we went after you again and again, you see news organizations no longer as quick to use that. Because we went after you calling us a dictatorship, you're now slower to use that term because we went after you about human rights and how it has different meanings in different countries. We think it's having an effect.David:And so I think that this attempt to grind us down is working, although in their view, it's working. And I think that, that ties in with a broader conversation that I have a lot in Beijing with foreign ambassadors or foreign diplomats who they get called into the foreign ministry, treated politically aggressively and shouted at and humiliated. And they say, how does the Chinese side not see that this causes them problems? And I think that in this moment of, as you say, an era of struggle, this phrase that we see from speeches, from leaders, including Xi, about an era of change, not seen in 100 years.David:They really do feel that as the West, particularly America is in decline and as China is rising, that it's almost like there's a turbulence in the sky where these two the two axis are crossing. And that China has to just push through that turbulence. To use a story that I had kept secret for a long time, that I put in a column when Michael Kovrig was released. So, listeners will remember Michael Kovrig was one of the two Canadians who was held cover couple of years, basically as a hostage by the Chinese state security. And fairly early on, I had heard from some diplomats in Beijing from another Western embassy, not the UK, I should say, that the fact that Michael Kovrig in detention was being questioned, not just about his work for an NGO, the international crisis group that he was doing when he was picked up.David:But he was also being questioned about work he'd been doing for the Canadian embassy when he had diplomatic immunity. The fact that that was going on was frightening to Western diplomats in Beijing. And soon after that conversation, I was sitting there talking to this guy, reasonably senior official. And I said to him, I explained this conversation to him. And I said, I've just been having a conversation with these diplomats. And they said, the word that they used was frightened about what you are doing to Michael Kovrig. And I said, how does it help China to frighten people from that country?David:And he'd been pretty cheerful up till then. He switched to English so that he could be sure that I understood everything he wanted to say to me. And he said, this absolute glacial tone. He said, Canada needs to feel pain. So that the next time America asks an ally to help attack China, that ally will think twice. And that's it.Bill:That's it. And it probably works.David:It works. And yeah. So I think that, again, one of the things I think is a value of being here is you have these conversations where the fact that we in the West think that China is inevitably making a mistake by being much more aggressive. I don't think that's how a big part of the machine here sees it. I think they think it worked.Bill:No. I agree. And I'm not actually sure that they're making a mistake because if you look at so far, what have the cost been? As you said, I mean, behavior is shift, but I think it's definitely open for question. I mean, it's like the assumptions you still see this week, multiple columns about how China's COVID policy is inevitably going to fail. And I'm sitting here in DC, we're about to cross a million people dead in this country, and I'm thinking what's failure. It's a very interesting time.Bill:I mean, to that point about this attitude and the way that there seem to be prosecuting a very top down or top level design communication strategy, Zhang Weiwei, who's at Fudan University. And also I think Eric Li is a closer associate of his, he actually was the, discussant at a Politburo study session. One of the monthly study sessions a few months ago, where I think the theme was on improving international communication. And talking about, again, how to better tell China's story, how to increase the global discourse power.Bill:Some people saw that as, oh, they're going to be nicer because they want to have a more lovable China image. I’m very skeptical because I think that this more aggressive tone, the shorthand is “Wolf warriors. wolf-warriorism”, I think really that seems to me to be more of a fundamental tenant of Xi Jinping being thought on diplomacy, about how China communicates to the world. I mean, how do you see it and how does this get better, or does it not get better for a while?David:It's a really important question. So I think, what do they think they're up to? To simplify and exaggerate a bit, I think that China, and this is not just a guess, this is based on off the record conversations with some pretty senior Chinese figures, they believe that the Western world, but in particular, the United States is too ignorant and unimaginative and Western centric, and probably too racist to understand that China is going to succeed, that China is winning and that the West is in really decadent decline.David:And so I think that these aggressive acts like detaining the two Michaels or their diplomatic an economic coercion of countries like Australia or Lithuania. They hear all the Pearl clutching dismay from high officials in Brussels, or in Washington DC-Bill:And the op-eds in big papers about how awful this is and-David:And the op-eds and yeah, self-defeating, and all those things. But I think that what they believe they are doing is delivering an educational dose of pain and I'm quoting a Chinese official with the word pain. And it is to shock us because we are too mule headed and thick to understand that China is winning and we are losing. And so they're going to keep delivering educational doses of pain until we get it. I think they think that's what they're up to-Bill:And by getting it basically stepping a side in certain areas and letting the Chinese pursue some of their key goals, the core interests, whatever you want to call it, that we, yeah.David:That we accommodate. Yeah. The fundamental message I'm quoting a smart friend of mine in Beijing here is China's rise is inevitable. Resistance is futile.Bill:Right. Resistance is futile.David:And if you accommodate us, we'll make it worth your while. It's the key message. And they think that some people are proving dimer and slower and more reluctant to pick that message up and above all Americans and Anglo Saxons. And so they're giving us the touch, the whip. Now, do I think that, that is inevitably going to be great for them? And you ask how does this end well? I mean, I guess my reason for thinking that they may yet pay some price, not a total price, is that they are engaged in a giant experiment. The Chinese government and party are engaged in a giant experiment, that it didn't matter that much, that the Western world was permissive and open to engagement with China.David:That, That wasn't really integral to their economic rise for the last 40 years that China basically did it by itself. And that if the Western world becomes more suspicious and more hostile, that China will not pay a very substantial price because its market power and its own manufacturing, industrial strength, we'll push on through. And so there'll be a period of turbulence and then we'll realized that we have to accommodate. And I think that in many cases they will be right. There will be sectors where industries don't leave China. They in fact, double down and reinvest and we're seeing that right now, but I do worry that there are going to be real costs paid.David:I mean, when I think back to... I did a special report for The Economists in May, 2019 about us generations. And one of the parts of that was the extraordinary number of Chinese students in us colleges. And I went to the University of Iowa and I spoke to Chinese students and you know that now, the levels of nationalism and hostility on both sides and the fear in American campuses, that's a real cost. I mean, I think if you imagine China's relationship with the Western world, particularly the U.S. as a fork in the road with two forks, one total engagement, one total decoupling, then absolutely China is right. There's not going to be total decoupling because we are as dependent as we were on China's, it's just-Bill:Right. Not realistic.David:China is an enormous market and also the best place to get a lot of stuff made. But I wonder, and it's an image I've used in a column, I think. I think that the relationship is not a fork in the road with two forks. It's a tree with a million branches. And each of those branches is a decision. Does this Western university sign a partnership with that Chinese university? Does this Western company get bought by a Chinese company? Does the government approve of that? Does this Western media organization sign a partnership with a Chinese media organization?David:Does this Western country buy a 5g network or an airline or a data cloud service or autonomous vehicles from China that are products and services with very high value added where China wants to be a dominant player. And that's an entirely reasonable ambition, because China's a big high tech power now. But a lot of these very high value added services or these relationships between universities, or businesses, or governments in the absence of trust, they don't make a bunch of sense because if you don't trust the company, who's cloud is holding your data or the company who's made you the autonomous car, which is filled with microphones and sensors and knows where you were last night and what you said in your car last night, if you don't trust that company or the country that made that, none of that makes sense.David:And I think that China's willingness to show its teeth and to use economic coercion and to go to European governments and say, if you don't take a fine Chinese 5g network we're going to hurt you. If you boil that down to a bumper sticker, that's China saying to the world, or certainly to the Western world stay open to China, or China will hurt you. Trust China or China will hurt you. That's the core message for a lot of these Wolf warrior ambassadors. And that's the core message to people like me, a guy who writes a column living in Beijing. And a lot of the time China's market power will make that okay. But I think that's, if you look at that tree with a million decisions, maybe more of those than China was expecting will click from a yes to a no.David:If you're a Western university, do you now open that campus in Shanghai? Do you trust your local Chinese partner when they say that your academics are going to have freedom of speech? And what's heartbreaking about that is that the victims of that are not going to be the politic bureau it's going to be people on the ground, it's going to be researchers and students and consumers and-Bill:On both sides. I mean, that's-David:On both sides. Yeah.Bill:Yeah. That's the problem.David:Yeah.Bill:So that's uplifting. No, I mean, I-David:I've got worse.Bill:Wait until the next question. I think I really appreciate your time and it'd be respective but I just have two more questions. One is really about just being a foreign correspondent in China and the Foreign correspondents' Club of China put out its annual report, I think earlier this week. And it's depressing you read as it's been in years and every year is extremely depressing, but one of the backdrops is really the first foreign ministry press conference of the last year of 2021. It really struck me that Hua Chunying, who is... She's now I think assistant foreign minister, vice foreign minister at the time, she was the head of the information office in I think the one of the spokespeople, she made a statement about how it was kicking off the 100th anniversary year.Bill:And I'm just going to read her couple sentences to get a sense of the language. So she said, and this was on the, I think it was January 4th, 2021, "In the 1930s and 1940s when the Guangdong government sealed off Yunnan and spared, no efforts to demonize the CPC foreign journalists like Americans, Edgar Snow, Anna Louise Strong and Agnes Smedley, curious about who and what the CPC is, chose to blend in with the CPC members in Yunnan and wrote many objective reports as well as works like the famous Red star over China, giving the world, the first clip of the CPC and its endeavor in uniting and leading the Chinese people in pursuing national independence and liberation."Bill:And then went on with more stuff about how basically wanting foreign correspondents to be like Snow, Strong or Smedley. How did that go over? And I mean, is that just part of the, your welcome as long as you're telling the right story message?David:So there was a certain amount of... Yeah. I mean, we also got this from our handlers at the MFA, why couldn't it be more like Edgar Snow? And I fear the first time I had that line in the meeting, I was like, well, he was a communist, if that's the bar, then I'm probably going to meet that one. Edgar Snow went to Yan’an he spent a tremendous amount of time in Mao hours interviewing Mao. If Xi Jinping wants to let me interview him for hours, I'd be up for that. But I would point out that Edgar Snow, after interviewing Mao for hours, then handed the transcripts over to Mao and had them edited and then handed back to him. And that probably would not be-Bill:But doesn't work at The Economist.David:That wouldn't fly with my editors. No. So I think we may have an inseparable problem there. Look, isn't it the phrase that Trump people used to talk about working the refs? I mean, what government doesn't want to work the refs. So, that's part of it. And I'm a big boy, I've been at Trump rallies and had people scream at me and tell me, I'm fake news. And it was still a good thing to meet. I've interviewed Afghan warlords who had happily killed me, but at that precise moment, they wanted the Americans to drop a bomb on the mountain opposite.David:And so they were willing to have me in their encampment. So, the worker of being a journalist, you need to go and talk to people who don't necessarily agree with you or like you and that's the deal. So I'm not particularly upset by that. What is worrying and I think this is shown in the FCC annual server, which is based on asking journalists in China how their job goes at the moment is there is a sense that the Chinese machine and in particular things like the communist youth league have been very effective at whipping up low public opinion.David:So when we saw the floods in Hunan Province in the summer of 2021, where in fact, we recently just found out that central government punished a whole bunch of officials who had covered up the death doll there, journalists who went down there to report this perfectly legitimate, large news story, the communist youth league among other organizations put out notices on their social media feeds telling people they're a hostile foreign journalists trying to make China look bad, to not talk to them, if you see them, tell us where they are. And you've got these very angry crowds chasing journalists around Hunan in a fairly worry way.David:And again, if you're a foreign correspondent in another country, we are guests in China. So, the Chinese people, they don't have to love me. I hope that they will answer my questions, because I think I'm trying to report this place fairly, but I'm not demanding red carpet treatment, but there is a sense that the very powerful propaganda machine here is whipping up very deliberately something that goes beyond just be careful about talking to foreign journalists. And I think in particular, one thing that I should say is that as a middle aged English guy with gray hair, I still have an easier time of it by far because some of the nastiest attacks, including from  the nastiest online nationalist trolls.David:They're not just nationalists, but they're also sexist and chauvinist and the people who I think really deserve far more sympathy than some like me is Chinese American, or Chinese Australian, or Chinese Canadian journalists, particularly young women journalists.Bill:I know Emily Feng at NPR was just the subject of a really nasty spate of attacks online about some of her reporting.David:And it's not just Emily, there's a whole-Bill:Right. There's a whole bunch.David:There's a whole bunch of them. And they get called you know er guizi all sorts of [crosstalk 00:37:15]. And this idea and all this horrible stuff about being race traitors and again, one of the conversations I've had with Chinese officials is, if you keep this up, someone is going to get physically hurt. And I don't think that's what you want. David:And again, I fall back on the fact that I'm a Western liberal. What I say to them is if you tell me that a Chinese-British journalist is not as British as me, then you are to my mind, that's racial prejudice. And if some right wing Western white politician said to me that a Chinese immigrant wasn't fully American, or wasn't fully British, that's racism, right?Bill:That's racism. Yeah.David:And I think that is the really troubling element to this level of nationalism. China is a very big country that does some very impressive things that does some less impressive things and does some very wicked things, but we have every reason to give it credit for the things it does well. And it is not that surprising when any government tries to work the refs.David:And get the best coverage they can by intimidating us and calling us out. I've interviewed Donald Trump and he asked me, when are you going to write something nice about me? I mean, we're grownups, this is how it works, but if they are making it toxic for young women journalists to work in China, or if they are driving foreign correspondent out of China, because their families they're under such intimidation that they can't even go on holiday without their children being followed around by secret police. I think there will be a cost.Bill:But that may be a what the Chinese side sees as a benefit, because then it opens the field for them controlling how the story's told. And then you can bring in a bunch of people or pull a bunch of people out of the foreigners working for state media, hey, the new Edgar Snow, the new Agnes Smedley. I mean, that is one of the things that I think potentially is what they're trying to do, which seems self-defeating, but as we've been discussing, what we think is self-defeating the policy makers, or some of them may see as a success.David:So what I think they're confident of is that being aggressive and making us much more jumpy is a win, but throwing all of us out, I think the people at the top get that, that's not a win because the New York times and the BBC and the Washington post, they're still going to cover China, even if they can't have people in China. And a bunch of that coverage is not going to be stuff that China likes, North Korea doesn't have any resident foreign correspondent, but it doesn't get a great press.Bill:And the other group, of course, but beyond the foreign journalists is all the PRC national journalists working for the foreign correspondent as researchers and, I mean, many of them journalists in all but name because they can't legally be that I've certainly, been hearing some pretty distressing stories about how much pressure they're under. And I think they're in almost an impossible situation it seems like right now.David:Now they're amazingly brave people. They're completely integral to our coverage. And many of them, as you say, they're journalists who in any other country, we would be getting to write stuff with their own bylines. I mean, in incredibly cautious about what we have our Chinese colleagues do now, because they are under tremendous pressure. I mean, not naming news organizations, but the just the level of harassment of them and their families and is really bad. And it's the most cynical attempt to make it difficult for us to do our jobs and to divide Chinese people from the Western media.David:But fundamentally at some level, this does not end well because, and this is not me just talking up the role of the Western media, because I think we're magnificently important people, but at some level there's a big problem under way with this level of nationalism in modern China. I was in China in the '90s, you were in China in the '90s, I think. We remember it was-Bill:'80s, '90s, 2000s. Yeah.David:Yeah. You were there before me, but it was not a Jeffersonian democracy. It was a dictatorship, but this level of nationalism is much more serious now. Why does that matter? Well, because I think that for a lot of particularly young Chinese, the gap between their self perception and the outside world's perception of China has become unbearably wide. They think this country has never been so impressive and admirable. And yet I keep seeing foreign media questioning us and criticizing us. And that just enrages them. They can't conceive of any sincere principle on our part that would make us criticize China that way.David:And going back to my conversation with the online nationalist Sai Lei, when he was saying, well, how would the Americans take it if they were told that eating avocados was bad for the environment? When I said to him, but they are told that. There are lots of environmental NGOs that talk about sustainable fisheries, or the cost, the carbon footprint of crops and things in the West. The two countries are pulling apart and the pandemic has just accelerated that process. And so if you are a Chinese nationalist, not only are you angry about being criticized, but you don't believe that the West is ever critical about itself. You think that the West is only bent on criticizing China. And that gap in perceptions is just really dangerously wide.Bill:And widening, it seems like. I mean, I'm not there now, but it certainly, from everything I can see outside of China, it feels like that's what's happening too.David:Yeah. We need to know more about China.Bill:I agree.David:And report more about China. And I don't just say that because that's how I earn my living. I think it's really, really dangerous for us to think that the solution is less reporting about China.Bill:Well, and certainly, I mean, and all sorts of avenues, not just media, but all sorts of avenues, we're seeing a constriction of information getting out of China. And on the one hand China's growing in importance globally and power globally. And on the other hand, our ability to understand the place seems to be getting harder. And it goes back to, I mean, we just, I think it'll be a mistake if we just get forced into accepting the official version of what China is. That's disseminated through the officially allowed and sanctioned outlets in China. Maybe that'll help China, but I'm not sure it helps the rest of the world.David:And it's not compatible with China's ambitions to be a high tech superpower. China wants to be a country that doesn't just-Bill:That's a very fundamental contradiction.David:Yeah. China wants to sell us vaccines and wants the Western world to buy Chinese vaccines and approve Chinese vaccines. Why has the FDA not yet approved Chinese vaccines? Well, one reason is because China hasn't released the data. You can't play this secretive defensive hermit state and be a global high tech superpower. And China is a very, very big country with a lot of good universities, a lot of smart people. It has every right to compete at the highest levels in global high tech. But you can't do that, if you are not willing to earn trust by sharing the data, or by letting your companies be audited, when they list overseas. They need to decide.Bill:Or being able to handle legitimate criticism. I mean, certainly there has been illegitimate criticism and the attacks on the Western media, I mean, I know the BBC was a frequent target last year. And I think they were able to pull out some errors of the reporting and then magnify it. I mean, it is a struggle. And I think one of the things I think is on the Chinese side, they're very much geared up for this ongoing global opinion struggle. And we're not and we're never going to be, because it's just not how our systems are structured. So it's going to be an interesting few years.David:It is. And it's a tremendous privilege to still be here. And as long as I'm allowed, I'm going to keep letting Chinese people, letting their voices be heard in my column. That's what I think I'm here for.Bill:Okay. Last question. Just given your experience in living in DC and writing for The Economist from here, where do you see us, China relations going? And there is a one direct connection to what we just talked about, the foreign journalists where there theoretically has been some sort of an improvement or a deal around allowing more journalists from each side to go to other country. Although what I've heard is that the Chinese side was been very clear that some of the folks who were forced to leave or were experienced are not going to be welcome back. It's going to have to be a whole new crop of people who go in for these places, which again, seems to be, we don't want people who have priors or longer time on the ground, potentially.David:We think that each of the big American news organizations just going to get at least one visa, initially. And that Is going to be this deal done and it's high time. And you're right, as far as we can tell the people who were expelled or forced to leave are not going to come back. And that's a real tragedy because I have Chinese officials say to me, we wish that the Western media sent people who speak good Chinese and who understand China. And I was like Ian Johnson and Chris Buckley, these people lived for, their depth of knowledge and their love for China was absolutely unrivaled. So, if you're going to throw those people out, you can't complain about journalists who don't like China.Bill:Exactly.David:The general trend of U.S. China relations. to be of optimistic about the trend of U.S. China relations I'd have to be more optimistic than I currently am about the state of U.S. Politics. And there's a kind of general observation, which is that I think that American democracy is in very bad shape right now. And I wish that some of the China hawks in Congress, particularly on the Republican side, who are also willing to imply, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was massive fraud every time they say that stuff, they're making an in-kind contribution to the budget of the Chinese propaganda department.Bill:I agree completely there. It's not a joke because it's too serious, but it's just ludicrous, hypocrisy and shortsightedness. It's disgusting.David:You cannot be a patriotic American political leader and tell lies about the state of American democracy. And then say that you are concerned about China's rise. So there's a general observation about, if dysfunction continues at this level, then-Bill:No wonder the Chinese are so confident.David:Yeah. I mean, the Chinese line on president Biden is interesting. One of the big things about my first couple of years here when president Trump was still in office was, I'd any number of people in the states saying confidently that Donald Trump was a tremendous China hawk. I never believed. And I've interviewed Trump a few times and spoken to him about China and spoken to his China people. I never believed that Donald Trump himself was a China hawk. If you define a China hawk, as someone who has principled objections to the way that China runs itself. I think that Donald Trump couldn't care less about the Uighurs and Xinjiang. In fact, we know he approved to what they were doing.David:Couldn't care less about Hong Kong couldn't care less frankly, about Taiwan. His objection to the China relationship was that I think he thinks the American economy is the big piece of real estate, and you should pay rent to access it. And he thought China wasn't paying enough rent. So he was having a rent review. I mean, that's what the guy. It was about, they needed to pay more and then he was going to be happy. So he was not a China hawk. What was really interesting was that here in China, officials would be pretty open by the end, took them time to get their heads around Trump. For a long time they thought he was New York business guy. Then they realized that was, he wasn't actually like the other New York business guy they knew.David:And then they thought he was like a super China hawk. And then they realized that that wasn't true. By the end, they had a nail. They thought he was a very transactional guy. And the deal that they could do with him was one that they were happy to do, because it didn't really involve structural change on the Chinese side. Then their message about Joe Biden is that he is weak and old and lacks control of Congress. And that he is, this is from scholars rather than officials, I should say, but their view is, why would China spend political capital on the guy who's going to lose the next election?Bill:And not only the next election but is probably going to lose control of the House, at least in nine, what is it? Nine months or 10 months. So why worry? And that they do and I think, I mean, one of the big milestones will be the national security strategy, the national defense strategy, which in the Trump administration they came out in the December of the first year and then January for the NDS. It's February, we still haven't seen those here. I think certainly as you said, but certainly from Chinese interlock is the sense of, is that they can't come to an agreement on what it should be, the U.S. China policy.David:Yeah. And China has some legitimate concerns. I mean, for example, if you are Xi Jinping and you're trying to work out how ambitious your climate change timetables going to be. How much pain are you going to ask co-producing provinces in the Northeast to take to get out to carbon neutrality as quickly as say, the Europeans are pushing you to do. And part of the equation is America going to take some pain too, or are we going to end up being uncompetitive? Because America's not actually going to do the right thing? Well, Joe Biden can talk a good game on climate as an area for cooperation with China. But if he loses the next election and Donald Trump or someone like Donald Trump wins the White House then if you're shooting pink, why would you kind of strike a painful deal with America if you don't think it's going to last beyond 2024?Bill:Right. You'll do what makes sense for your country and not offer anything up to America because we already have a record of backing out of these deals. That's the problem.David:So that has real world consequences. The one thing that I will say about the U.S. China relationship, and I'm very, very pessimistic about the fact that the two sides, they don't share a vision of how this ends well. There is no end game that I think makes both sides happy, because I think the Chinese vision is America sucks it up and accommodates.Bill:Right. Resistance is futile.David:Yeah, exactly. And the American vision, I think, is that China stumbles, that China is making mistakes, that the state is getting involved in the economy too much. That Xi Jinping is centralizing power too much. And that somehow China's going to make so many mistakes that it ends up to feed defeating itself. I think that's one of the arguments you here in DC.Bill:Yes. It's wishful thinking it's not necessarily based on a rigid rigorous analysis. It seems like it's much more wishful thinking.David:So, that is a reason to be pessimistic about the medium and the long-term. The one thing that I will say based here in China is that when I write really specific color about things like what does China think of the idea of Russia invading Ukraine? And I talk to really serious scholars who spent their lives studying things like Russia policy or foreign policy or international relations, or if I talk to really senior tech people, Chinese tech companies, they do take America's power very seriously. Even though there is absolutely sincere disdain for American political dysfunction.David:I think that America's innovation power, the areas of technology, whether it's semiconductors or some forms of AI algorithms where America just really is still ahead by a long way, the really serious people, when you talk to them off the record, they still take America seriously. And on that Ukraine example, what was really interesting, the prompt for that was seeing commentators in the U.S. saying that Xi Jinping would like Putin to invade Ukraine because this was going to be a test that Biden was going to fail and America was going to look weak. And maybe that would lead Xi Jinping to then invade Taiwan.David:And when I spoke to Chinese scholars, really serious Chinese scholars of Russia, their Irish, it's like, no, no, no. Russia is an economy, the size of Guangdong and they sell us oil and gas, which is nice. But our trade to them is not enough to sacrifice our relationship with America.Bill:Thank you, David Rennie. That was a really good conversation. I think very useful, very illuminating. The links, some of the articles we talked about, the links will be in the show notes. And just a note on the schedule for the sinocism podcast. It is not, I think going to be weekly or biweekly as I thought originally, I'm still working it out, but it will be every, at least once a month. I hope it's the plan, if not, a little more frequent depending on the guests.Bill:So thanks for your patience and look forward to hearing from you. I love your feedback. The transcript will be on the website when it goes live. So please let me know what you think. And as always, you can sign up for sinocism at sinocism.com, S-I-N-O-C-I-S-M.com. Thank you. Get full access to Sinocism at sinocism.com/subscribe

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Episode: Probate Leads, Data, & Real Estate Deals with Bill GrossGuest:  Bill Gross is a real estate agent, investor, and probate expert working the California real estate market.Big Idea: Most real estate attorneys, agents, & investors have no idea how to properly probate an estate quickly.  Probate deals often linger for months & sometimes years before finally receiving a clear to close.  Bill's focus is exactly those types of deals.  He finds the most challenging probate cases and quickly clears the issue and gets to closing quickly, where everyone gets paid.  Bill and I go deep on Probate and share quite a few resources including where to get probate data, how to work probate leads, and the #1 nationwide resource for handling probate cases.  Hint, this is NOT your local attorney.  This Episode of The REI Diamonds Show is Sponsored by the Deal Machine. This Software Enables Real Estate Investors to Develop a Reliable & Low Cost Source of Off Market Deals. For a Limited Time, You Get Free Access at http://REIDealMachine.com/Resources Mentioned in this Episode:https://www.TheLAProbateExpert.comFor Access to Real Estate Deals You Can Buy & Sell for Profit:https://AccessOffMarketDeals.com/podcast/View the Episode Description & Transcript Here:https://reidiamonds.com/probate-leads-data-real-estate-deals-with-bill-gross/Dan Breslin: Welcome to the REI Diamonds Show. I'm your host, Dan Breslin. This is episode 202 on probate leads, probate data, and real estate deals with Bill Gross. If you're into building wealth through real estate investing, you are in the right place. My goal is to identify high-caliber real estate investors and other industry service providers. Invite them on the show, and then draw out the jewels of wisdom. Those tactics, mindsets, and methods used to create millions of dollars and more in the business of real estate.Today's guest, Bill Gross, is a real estate agent investor and probate expert. Currently working in the California real estate market. Most real estate attorneys, agents, and investors have no idea how to properly probate an estate quickly. Probate deals often linger on for months and sometimes years before finally receiving a clear to close and getting us all paid. Bill's focus is exactly those types of deals. He finds the most challenging probate cases, and quickly clears the issues, and gets to closing quickly where everyone gets paid.Bill and I go deep on probate and share quite a few resources including where to get probate data. How to work probate leads? The number 1 nationwide resource for handling probate cases. Hint, this is not your local attorney. Please enjoy this conversation with Bill Gross.Dan: Bill Gross, welcome to the REI Diamonds Show. How are you doing today?Bill Gross: I'm doing great. How are you?Dan: I'm doing good. So I like to location and market stamp my episodes lately. Whereabouts in the US are you recording from and doing business?Bill: Well, I'm in Los Angeles, California, where I live. I have lived here for 25 years. I'm a native Southern Californian. I do business throughout California. In probate real estate has wide geography. So I currently have sold or currently listed property in 8 Counties in California. I stayed in California overall.Bill Gross & I Discuss Probate Leads, Data, & Real Estate Deals:• California Real Estate market• How to find the BEST Probate Opportunities• Benefits of Being a Broker INSTEAD of an Investor• #1 Resource for Handling Probate Cases NationwideRelevant Episodes: (There are 202 Content Packed Interviews in Total)• Mike Shapiro on Transforming a Southern California Real Estate Brokerage• How to Find Motivated Sellers with David Lecko• Economic Forecast 2021 with Paul Sloate

Episode Notes:Today's guest is Joanna Chiu, a long-time journalist covering China from both inside and outside the country, co-founder and chair of the editorial collective 'NüVoices 女性之音', and the author of the new book "China Unbound." She now covers Canada-China issues for the Toronto Star. Joanna, welcome to the podcast.4:20 on Huawei, Meng Wanzhou and the two Michaels - when the whole Huawei, Meng Wanzhou saga was unfolding, I got so many questions from not just Canadian journalists, but media around the world about what was going on. I think it's surprising to us because we've been in the China-watching bubble, but more broadly, what happened was very shocking for a lot of people all over the world23:20 people like me and my family aren't fully accepted as Canadians or as Australians or as Americans, it's always like a hyphen, like Chinese-Canadian, Chinese-American. That just plays into what Beijing wants. When people of Chinese descent are taken as political prisoners or get calls from Chinese police saying, "Stop supporting Hong Kong on social media or stop doing this," these people get less attention. They're not taken seriously when they try to report what's happening because unfortunately a lot of people in the West have accepted the CCP's myth that we're still essentially Chinese36:20 on Canada-China relations - in Canada, the mood after the Michaels returned and the Meng case was resolved is that they really want to go back to business as usual. To not have any kind of plan in place on how to prevent Canadian hostages from being taken in the future. The Prime Ministers office really steering this even though other parts of government was like, "We need some sort of plan, we need some sort of update to foreign policy in general." There's very little political will.Links: China Unbound on Amazon. Joanna Chiu’s websiteNüVoices 女性之音Transcript:Bill:Hi everyone, today's guest is Joanna Chiu, a long-time journalist covering China from both inside and outside the country, co-founder and chair of the editorial collective 'NüVoices', and the author of the new book "China Unbound." She now covers Canada-China issues for the Toronto Star. Joanna, welcome to the podcast.Joanna:Thank you Bill, thanks for having me on your new podcast, very exciting.Bill:Thanks, yeah you are the second guest, and so I'm really happy to have this opportunity to speak with you. Before we dig into your book, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up where you are and doing what you do?Joanna:Okay. I guess my bio is that my family is one of the many who left Hong Kong after the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests because my parents were worried about what would happen going forward. So growing up in Canada, I felt that China was actually part of my whole family story because what happened led to my family uprooting themselves. So I was always really interested in China and studied Chinese history and wanted to return to be a reporter to chronicle what was happening in the country, which I was so fascinated by.Joanna:So I started reporting on the ground in Hong Kong in 2012, covering all the things that happened there including the Occupy to pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong. I moved to Beijing in 2014 and that's where I started covering basically everything in the whole country for European media outlets, including German, Deutsche Presse-Agentur, and AFP (Agence France-Presse). And I guess my career was a bit unique in that I also free-lanced for several stints. So I got to kind of get a sense of what many different jurisdictions and countries wanted to know about China in my time there writing for all sorts of outlets.Bill:Interesting and so I was there until 2015 and I think we overlapped for just about a year. When did you actually leave China to go back to Canada?Joanna:Yeah, I left China in late 2018. I wanted to stay for longer because even seven years on the ground I felt I barely got to scratch the surface of all the things that I could write about in China. Especially because I had such a broad remit where I was a front-line reporter for all of these major events but also could do basically any feature story I wanted. So it was just totally open and I could have stayed there for decades, but I had to go back to Canada. I got asthma from the smog and I think my Canadian lungs just couldn't handle air. I was just like really allergic to Beijing as soon as I landed and I stuck it out for four years. But back in Canada, I felt I would have to move on from my passion and interest in China, but a couple of months after I returned, Meng Wanzhou, a Huawei executive was detained in the Vancouver International Airport. And just over a week later, two Michaels were detained. So definitely I think that was the biggest China story at the time, and it continued to be very impactful around the world.Joanna:So I started covering that and it just led to basically being a reporter for the Toronto Star, focusing on China. And that's what I've been doing since then. I have also been working on my book since early 2019. So not my plan, but definitely the past decade has been very China focused, including my last few years.Bill:It's great, I've always been a fan of your work, and I will say, it's very interesting how many foreign correspondents used to live in China have left the country. Some willingly, some not willingly, but how it turns out how most of them have found jobs covering how China's impacting the world wherever they're now based.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Bill:I think that's a good segue into talking about your book because it really is true that the China story is everywhere now. And that's something, I think, you try and capture in "China Unbound." So tell us who you wrote it for, why you wrote it, and what do you hope that the readers take away from it?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). So when the whole Huawei, Meng Wanzhou saga was unfolding, I got so many questions from not just Canadian journalists, but media around the world about what was going on. I think it's surprising to us because we've been in the China-watching bubble, but more broadly, what happened was very shocking for a lot of people all over the world. They didn't know the context of Beijing's political system and its increasing ... how its authoritarianism translates also into its foreign policy and its stances towards different countries and diaspora groups all over the world. But these things were not just stories I covered, but stories that were close to my life. Because growing up, my father worked for a Chinese-Canadian radio station and people were talking already then about pressure to self-censor, pressure from the Chinese embassy on Canadian media outlets. This was happening in the 90s and people of Chinese descent around the world were trying to have discussions about this, but basically not really getting much traction or broader public attention.Joanna:It did seem ... I will ask you if this is what you felt, but it took two white men from Canada being taken hostage over this high-profile executive's arrest in Canada for a lot of people in the world to be like, "Wait, what's going on? How will Beijing's political system and authoritarianism possibly impact me and my family or my country or my business?" So I wrote this book for basically everyone, targeting the general reader because I really try to be as immediate as possible in my writing. Most of the reporting is eyewitness reporting from myself in collaboration with journalists around the world and looking at how we got to this point. Western countries and China, how we got to this point where it seems like a lot of obstacles that seem insurmountable. All of these tensions, all of these worries.Joanna:I wanted for people to start with this book and then I provided this long reading list at the end so they can continue to be engaging with these issues. Because I feel that we might not have really noticed, but a lot of the narratives around China in the mainstream public have been very very simplified. And that is a disservice to all countries. And especially to the people who end up being targets and whose lives end up being affected by some of these big conflicts going on.Bill:What you said earlier about it really taking two white men, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig to get people's attention. It's interesting because these pressures have existed, as you said talking about your father and his experience, but these pressures on the diaspora have existed for decades. They've certainly intensified, and you have multiple instances of ethnic Chinese who are jailed in China, American, Australian, where it didn't seem to kind of capture the national attention the way that the detention of the two Michaels did. And that's unfortunate, but it does feel like the conversation and awareness now has shifted and so there's a lot more awareness that these kind of pressures are existing across all sorts of communities. You can tell me I'm wrong, but the Chinese government has also shifted its approach, hasn't it? Sort of widened its net in terms of how they pressure?Joanna:Yeah, so in the past, you know the united front, a lot of that work of foreign influence in both intimidation and providing carrots and sticks. Flattering global politicians and global members of the elite among the diaspora have been going on, but the most harsh efforts of influence in the past I think were mostly directed at people of Asian descent. It was only in more recent years where the really harsh tactic, the detentions, have been applied to foreign nationals who are not of Asian descent. It seems like that is a deliberate shift in tactics, would you agree?Bill:No, I would. And I think it's interesting when you look at sort of who they've targeted, especially around the Meng Wanzhou case. Two Canadians were very quickly arrested, a third Canadian who had been convicted of dealing drugs had a re-sentence to death. There's still no word about Schellenberg's fate in the wake of the Meng Wanzhou deal. But I think that one thing that's interesting is they've yet to target Caucasian Americans. And so far, certainly what I was fearing in the Meng Wanzhou incident was that ... someone had told me that they had put together lists who they might target but they held back because part of the messaging is they're at least today not quite ready to go toe-to-toe with the U.S.. But willing to penalize countries and the citizens of the countries that are seen as effectively being U.S. allies or lackeys depending on who you're speaking with. Does that make sense?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, that makes sense. And my book, people have said that because I'm Canadian and I spotlight countries and experiences like Australia, Italy, Greece, Turkey. So so-called middle powers, that middle-power perspective, whereas many books out of the U.S. and China have it from the U.S. perspective.Bill:Right, right.Joanna:And I think that's important context for Americans to understand because in America, it seems like a lot of it is about this almost glorious competition with China where the U.S. has to win. I have been kind of mortified that people commenting on my book have said things like, "We need to read this so that we can win and not let China win." Things like that. But if they had actually read it, they would have probably seen that that's not right. I criticize the Western nations' handling and attitudes towards China as much as I criticize Beijing's actions. So I would also point out that Australian journalists who are white were affecting. Bill Birtles and Michael Smith spent days holed up in their Australian embassies in China. Basically fleeing because they got tipped off that otherwise they might get detained. Related to Australia's more aggressive critical stance towards China as of late.Bill:And also-Joanna:It does seem-Bill:Sorry, was it also related to the detention of Australian Chinese ... Australian journalist Cheng Lei who was originally Chinese then naturalized into Australian citizenship. And she's disappeared into the system in China, right?Joanna:Yeah, so Cheng Lei ... Again, while she's not a global household name like the two Michaels, she is actually detained. Her case ... we know very little about it, but it seems very clear it's related to the political situation between the two countries. And also Bloomberg journal Haze Fan ... and I think actually Haze's case might be as close as China has gotten so far to targeting Americans because even though a Chinese national, she worked for Bloomberg. She was a prominent journalist for Bloomberg. So it's interesting because writing this book, I'm trying to provide this nuance and context for the public but under so much pressure because of global contexts. Things are so tense that it could get worse at any moment and you don't know. You're hearing from your sources about a list that they were preparing of Americans they could possibly target. The stakes are so high.Joanna:Both of us, these are people we know. I don't know if you knew Kovrig, but it's a relief that he's back.Bill:Not well, but I did know a little bit.Joanna:For the more than 1,000 days he was in detention, I was writing this book and that was always on my mind. It's so immediate and it's so urgent for more people to understand what's going on rather than I think fanning the flames or making things worse or not using the opportunities there are to engage more productively with China. But we see the dialogue on China becoming so toxic right now, where it's almost as if there's two camps. The more extreme on both sides seem to get more airtime and interest. And people want those nuggets of talking points on China that really signify this is how we fight back. Rather than the people who are trying to provide a lot more context. It's not as easy as doing this or that to resolve everything or get what you want.Bill:Well with what you said earlier about sort of "we have to win," I have yet to see a clear definition of the theory of victory and what it is. The other thing I'd say, and this will lead into my next question is, we talk about in many ways how toxic the discourse has gotten in the West. It's also incredibly toxic inside China in very worrisome ways. And in many ways, sort of state-supported and state-encouraged ways. One of the questions I want to ask you is how we ... So first question is as you talk about in the book and you've talked about in other places, this whole discussion around Chinese Communist Party influence or interference in other countries ... Whether it's through the United Front or other means or vectors ... How do we differentiate what we should actually, "we" being the countries that are targeted ... How should you differentiate what actually matters that people should be concerned with versus that's the normal thing that a foreign government would do to try and improve other countries' perceptions of that country and advance their interests in those countries.Bill:And related, as this discourse does get more toxic, how do we talk about these things without tipping into racism? In the U.S. certainly, we have a really long and nasty history of anti-Asian and specifically anti-Chinese racism. And there are a lot of reasons to be very worried about going too far where we're back in a very dark place in terms of how people of Asian and Chinese descent are treated in this country. But at the same time, there are real issues and potential threats coming from some of these PRC activities. So how do we talk about that in a way that effectively deals with the problems but also makes sure that people are safe and able to enjoy the rights that they deserve and have?Joanna:Yeah and that's why I try to provide a lot of that history concisely within each chapter of the book because we need to know what happened before to know to be a lot more careful with our language and our actions now. Because definitely it just seems like history is repeating itself during the McCarthy era. Chinese-Americans' loyalties are constantly questioned, they lost their jobs. And now former President Trump has said that he thinks basically all students are possibly Chinese spies. We've seen these prosecutions of certain Chinese national scientist professors in America that were basically pretty embarrassing.Bill:Yes.Joanna:It seemed a lot of the suspicions were unfounded and it was almost like a witch-hunt which is really difficult. When things seemed politicized and politically motivated and you put a blanket suspicion on all these people, it's exactly what happened in the past.Bill:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Joanna:And it's not just America. It was in Canada, Australia, Europe. In Canada, we had internment of Japanese Canadians during World War II. And people know that this is in the background. And even before things got more tense when a lot of the approach among Western countries towards China was that the goal was to expand trade ties and economic ties as much as possible, there was still a lot of racism. Walking down the street, I got called slurs like the c-word in downtown Vancouver multiple times.Bill:Recently?Joanna:Throughout my life living in Canada. In Vancouver, particularly, there was a long-standing stereotype of the crazy rich Asian that was ruining the city with our Maseratis and condo buying.Bill:Wasn't there a reality show that was based on rich Chinese in Vancouver, I think?Joanna:Yeah, there was that and there's a lot of scapegoating against East Asians for lots of problems with COVID-19 and all this with the two Michaels in Huawei. This just really spiked particularly in countries like Canada, U.S., Australia with the large Chinese diaspora in many places. People who weren't even Chinese, like an indigenous woman in Canada, she was punched in the face. Things like that. And its not like we can throw up our hands and be like, "People are just going to be racist, this is just going to happen." I think a lot of people in positions of influence and politicians need to take responsibility for what they've done to stoke this behavior and not condone it. So talking to certain politicians in Canada in the conservative party, they tell me that there's been a shift in strategy to talk about China as the Chinese Communist Party, the communist regime, to deliberately stir up a red scare. In the U.S. definitely, the FBI in an announcement about one of its investigations into a Chinese American scientist said the words "Chinese Communist regime" or "Chinese Communist government" five times.Bill:That was the announcement about the MIT professor, was it Chen Gang, I think?Joanna:Yeah, I think so.Bill:The prosecutor or the FBI folks up in Boston, I believe.Joanna:Right. Yeah, that was the one. And it's just not necessary. You don't need to ... My argument is that the facts about what Beijing is doing are urgent and sobering enough. You don't really need to embellish it with this language of trying to get people scared of this Communist entity. But perhaps it's more to do with domestic politics in each place. Someone explained it to me in the U.S. where pretty much everyone is critical of China. You don't get more attention by just being moderately critical, you have to be really more extreme. It's as if it's like a competition to be as hawkish as possible to get that acclaim and public support.Bill:And as you said, it's unnecessary because as you just said, the facts can speak for themselves in many areas. And it again, it goes back to how do we have rational discussion about what the problems and challenges are without tipping over into something that's really nasty and scary. It's something I struggle with, obviously in my newsletter, I have ... It's funny when you write about China, I have people who think I'm a CCP apologist and people who think I'm way too hawkish. You sort of can't win, it's such a fraught topic that it is something I struggle with. Because you certainly don't want to be in a position where you're stirring things up, but at the same time you can't just throw up your hands and say, "Well we're not going to deal with this because it's too dangerous." I mean, it's too dangerous the other way too, right? But it's really difficult, and the question I have is, do you think the powers in Beijing understand this? Is this something they try to use or leverage?Joanna:Oh yeah, I think so. I think it plays right into what Beijing wants. Because the myth it has been promoting for years is that China is the center of Chinese civilization even if your family has been away from China for generations, you're still Chinese. And since you're still Chinese, your de-facto leader is still the CCP. It's a legitimate power for all Chinese people. Because people like me and my family aren't fully accepted as Canadians or as Australians or as Americans, it's always like a hyphen, like Chinese-Canadian, Chinese-American. That just plays into what Beijing wants. When people of Chinese descent are taken as political prisoners or get calls from Chinese police saying, "Stop supporting Hong Kong on social media or stop doing this," these people get less attention. They're not taken seriously when they try to report what's happening because unfortunately a lot of people in the West have accepted the CCP's myth that we're still essentially Chinese. It's in the law, if there's dual-nationality, they don't accept the second nationality.Joanna:But even more than that, I still worry that ... it's happened to people like me. I actually gave up my Hong Kong citizenship, I'm only Canadian. But just because of my Chinese blood, I'm at greater risk of whatever repercussions. I've definitely been singled out when I was a foreign correspondent in Beijing for writing too much about human rights. And they did not say the same things about other people in my office. So by not listening to people in the diaspora and still treating them as they're still outsiders, we're with this connection to China whether we agree or not, that's really playing into it. And also when there's this racism, Chinese media, Chinese embassies, they've been really up front about condemning this and using it as a way to shore up loyalty among overseas Chinese, especially people who are more recent immigrants to get that support. There's so many of these China Friendship associations around the world. It's tough to understand their impact because it's all basically legal. They are these groups that openly support Beijing's policies all around the world. And they have, in my reporting, taken part in basically trying to make friends with politicians around the world and using those interviews, events, photographs to turn into propaganda to say, "We got support from this politician." There were groups that have offered money for people to vote for certain candidates in other countries' elections.Joanna:So it's complicated because when these groups are alienated, when they still feel that ... On a pragmatic level, it makes better sense for them to have good relations with Beijing. These groups are going to increase and proliferate and it's hard to understand what they're doing because you don't want to villainize it. In a way it's very natural for people, say, with business ties in China to try to hob-nob with Chinese embassies and try to support them. When I do report on some of these activities like the potential vote buying and interfering in elections, people use it as an excuse to say, "Oh, everyone's like that. All recent immigrants are working for the CCP." And that just puts a lot of reporters and researchers in these really tricky situations where you want to report on what's going on, but because discourse just fails to be nuanced enough, people just kind of take it as a reason to be more hostile and to not really open up their minds that there's a diversity of opinions among Chinese people and the Chinese diaspora.Bill:And it's also hard I think because so much of it happens in Mandarin or other Chinese dialects, so most people who don't speak the language have no idea what's going on.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). But it's been such a rich field of potential reporting for me, going back to Canada. It's really, really resitting. I have been able to read all of these reports. I've been able to translate these posts into English for audiences who found it really interesting. But I would argue that it's not actually that hard because there are so many Chinese speakers all over the world. It's not like it's a niche population, like a small population. In these stories where Steve Bannon and Miles Kwok's like cultish group was protesting outside a Canadian journalist's house accusing him of being a Chinese spy, when he was actually critical of Beijing. There were death threats.Bill:They did that to a bunch of people in America too. They had a whole program of targeting people.Joanna:Yeah, New Jersey.Bill:Yeah.Joanna:Yeah, so in that case. In Texas, with Pastor Bob Fu, he was one of the targets. And the FBI came in, the bomb squad, they put him and his family in a safe house. But in Canada, police monitored it, checked in once in a while. I actually sent them videos, like this looks like a death threat. And I actually ... Me and my colleagues, we translated some of this information and we posted it on YouTube to explain what was going on. But then it took three months later, this going on in Canada ... Two of these protestors just savagely beat one of the target's friends. And the police were responding to questions of why didn't you step in earlier, there were death threats? They admitted that they were slow with the investigation because they didn't have Chinese language resources. And that doesn't make sense really, in Vancouver, when there are so many people of Chinese descent. It's not hard to find someone to look at something and translate it to understand it.Joanna:In the conclusion of my book, one of the points I make is that information in Chinese language is treated like a secret code that can't be cracked. Instead, people like Newt Gingrich and other kind of just make things up. In his book, Newt Gingrich ... I don't quite remember but he just provided nonsensical translations of Chinese words and then extrapolated a whole bunch of theories about China based on that. Which is insulting to all of the people, not just of Chinese descent, but people like you who have taken the time to learn Mandarin and to understand China.Bill:There's a lot of that here in the U.S., I don't know how much it exists in other countries. But certainly the taking stuff out of context or just crappy language skills. And then, like you said, extrapolating something much bigger and darker and nefarious than in many cases it actually is, for sure.Joanna:Yeah. In the U.S. people tell me that they do have Chinese speakers, but lower down in the chain who provide reports and information. But going up the chain, the politicians and the pundits, they pick and choose information to support what they believe already. So these researchers feel like they're not even being heard because politicians are just grabbing what they want anyways. In many cases, people of Chinese descent are worried about even going to China or talking about their family in China because they're not going to get promoted to more influential positions. They're not going to get security clearance because the assumption is that if you have any sort of China ties that you might be compromised. And that's a very prejudicious trend in D.C.Bill:When I moved back to D.C. after ten years, I had no interest in working for the government, but I had a funny conversation with someone who does have security clearance. He says, "Don't even bother to apply, you'll never get a security clearance because you lived in China for too long."Joanna:That's crazy.Bill:That's fine, but there are reasons for governments to be concerned with ties to other foreign governments, but certainly for folks of Chinese descent it's much more pernicious. And it does seem like in many places the assumption is that you're potentially at risk of compromise. One of the problems is how people's families are being leveraged back in China. You see it in the way the persecutions of the Uyghurs and Tibetans. But you see it also in Han Chinese, people who are doing things that are considered controversial or anti-China outside of China. It's a very common tactic, right, to harass, hassle, otherwise make difficult for family members back in China, right?Joanna:Yeah, and that is a major ... There's no solution to that. I tried to spotlight a lot of these voices in the book. I spoke with people like Vicky Xu, the campaign against her has just been ridiculous. People made fake porn of her, thousands of accounts were basically attacking her, doxxing her.Bill:I feel like that story didn't get as much attention as maybe it should have. She was just so brutally targeted by very obviously state-backed campaigns.Joanna:Yeah. Very personal and they started with her family. She's been open about that, how her family and parents have been pressured. But she didn't stop her work, so they went further. They sent thousands of accounts and they made fake pornography about her so that when people search in Chinese, that's what comes up. And trying to completely smear her character. But that story did not get that much attention.Bill:This is because of her work at the ASPI down in Australia, right? Specifically around XinjiangJoanna:Xinjiang, yeah. I think she's one of the main researchers in Australia that focused on Xinjiang. The bigger issues looking at supply chains, looking at forced labor, and where internment camps are. Recently she found a trove of police documents about the repression. And because of her fluent Chinese and her networks, she was able to find this and provide this information. So people like her, I think, Beijing wants the most to silence and has the means and leverage to try to do so. I think she's unique in that she continues to do this work. We're not sure for how long because you have to wonder how long someone can take this.Bill:Right.Joanna:More people that I know of are either operating anonymously, they're really providing subtle advising roles to governments in a very very anonymous manner. Because they're worried about their families. Or they're writing under pseudonyms and they don't get a lot of attention because no one knows who they are. They're worried about ... not even access. I think a lot of researchers worry about being able to go back to China. At different levels, people who are worried about the safety of themselves and their family members.Bill:So just given the trajectory of China under Xi Jinping, is there any reason to think this is going to get better? Or are we sort of more close to the beginning of where this trajectory goes?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think we're kind of at a pivotal point. A lot of it isn't waiting for what Beijing does, but there's a responsibly on Western countries to at least be smarter about China and to have proper expertise in places of governments to try to even have some well thought out policy on these issues. In the U.S. Cabinet, very little China experience. And like we talked about, the people with experience ... They have trouble having influence. And in Canada, the mood after the Michaels returned and the Meng case was resolved is that they really want to go back to business as usual. To not have any kind of plan in place on how to prevent Canadian hostages from being taken in the future. The Prime Ministers office really steering this even though other parts of government was like, "We need some sort of plan, we need some sort of update to foreign policy in general." There's very little political will. I think the amount of criticism in different countries' media doesn't reflect the lack of political will of governments to even put the basic structures in place to understand China better. To be able to translate basic things from Chinese into English to be aware of.Bill:And in Canada, why do you thing that is? Especially given the diversity of Canada and the number of people of Chinese descent in the country. But also what just happened over the last close to three years. Why wouldn't the government have had a bit more of a shift in views of how the relationship in China should go?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think it's related partly to what we were talking about before where politicians are worried about stoking racism, losing support from Canadians of Chinese descent. Partly an election issue, and I think traditionally in Canada, the main government advisors on China have been people in the business world who do have a vested interest in making sure that tensions are as low as possible to facilitate smoother business interactions. But that's also not even the case where if you ... I think the idea in the West has been reformed through trade. Through interactions, economically, China will naturally liberalize, become more democratic. But in recent years, we've seen political tensions move over to economic coercion, economic retaliation. Not just from China but back and forth, with America, Australia, other countries have also did tit-for-tat trade tariffs. Different ways where the political situation can impact the economic relationships. So it's not even necessarily the case that just by focusing on business, everything will be all good. I think a lot of politicians are trying to put their head in the sands about that and not trying to understand the really complex situation unfolding. And Canadians on the whole, surveys show, pretty frustrated about the situation in action and just passiveness that they see from Ottawa.Bill:I guess the Huawei decision will be interesting, whether or not Huawei is allowed into the Canadian 5G network construction. Certainly here in D.C., there's all the factors you talked about and there's a lot of opportunity for lobbyists from various industries and companies to sort of shift Biden administration and Capitol thinking to policies that are more likely to make money dealing with China. And that certainly has an impact on the policies. So just shifting gears quickly because we're almost out of time and this has been a really great conversation. One of the things we were talking about was lifting up and getting more diversity of voices. Can you tell the listeners about NüVoices and what you helped create there? I found that to be a really wonderful and useful project that's been up for a couple years now? Or has it been three years? Time just sort of blended away with the pandemic, right?Joanna:So actually we were founded in 2017.Bill:Oh my gosh, okay.Joanna:In Beijing, so it's almost under five years. It's been like a daily kind of passion project in the community for me. We kind of wanted to create a more open and accepting China space, both in person with events and chapters around the world and also virtually. And it started in reaction with panels and book deals. The people who get platformed on China are often white male experts. No offense to yourself.Bill:People like me. No, no, I get it. I get it.Joanna:You're one of our longtime supporters and our patrons and we've spoken about how this helps to create a better world for your kids, for your daughters. Because we want to remove any excuses that people have for not even having one woman on their panel. Five years ago, people just kept saying to us and our co-founders, "We tried to find a female expert, but we couldn't find one." Or "We couldn't find a woman on this topic." Which is ridiculous because looking around, actually people we know, I see more women than men entering these fields. Definitely being a journalist in China, there's more women than men. And women who can speak Chinese and doing great work. So we created this open-source directory. Now it has more than 600 people all around the world who are women or non-binary on all sorts of topics. And speaking all sorts of languages in all sorts of time zones. I think just that project alone helped to remove those excuses. Any time someone makes an excuse that they couldn't find a woman, someone just has to send that person the link to this directory. No more excuses.Joanna:And on top of that we have a twice monthly podcast which I co-host sometimes and events all around the world. And basically social groups and networks and it's a platform so that people can benefit from this supportive atmosphere. We really try and celebrate diverse voices on China, experts on China. I find that women tend to ... because they're facing so much discrimination, women experts often have to fight harder to provide unique insights and reporting. So the kind of good quality you get just reaching out to any female expert in China, its a pretty good bet on fresh and interesting perspectives. And definitely I found that the case with my book. Because you know I tried to practice what I preach and most of my sources are coming from diverse backgrounds, women and minorities ... I shouldn't even use the word "minorities", people who aren't white basically.Bill:Mm-hmm (affirmative) right.Joanna:In each country, and I think that provides a different layer than people who enjoy positions of more power in those countries, who might not see some of the more uglier sides or the more complicated sides because that's not their experience. They're not getting the five star treatment when they go to China that a lot people in power do.Bill:It's definitely one of the things I enjoy about your book, it does have these different perspectives that are so important as we are all sort of trying to figure out what's going on and start thinking about what we can do. Specifically, NüVoices, I was looking at the directory last week. I think it's like 620 entries or something, I'm certainly planning to mine it for guests for the podcast because it's a really tremendous resource. And I will put a link to it in the show notes when we publish the podcast. Well thank you so much, is there anything else you'd like to add or say to the audience? Other than buy your book, "China Unbound", it's a great book. Please go ahead and go buy it and read it. It's a great book.Joanna:Just asking yourself, being based in the U.S., what are the best avenues for a more productive conversations on China? Instead of going to people who are more simplistic, what are some more resources you'd recommend? Including, of course your newsletter and that community. But who's doing the work to make up more well-informed approaches?Bill:That's a great question, and I'm not actually sure I have a good answer. I'm struggling with that and part of it is maybe that I'm based in D.C. where it is quite ... It's difficult to be in D.C. and to be not hawkish about China if you want to get ahead in certain parts of the government here. And so, I'm not actually sure. I know that there's China Twitter ... I mean Twitter in general is just kind of a cesspool and China Twitter is not a productive or constructive place for discourse about anything. I don't know, I wish I had a better answer for you, I need to think about it more.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Bill:Do you have any guesses or any suggestions?Joanna:I was expecting a more simplified reaction to my book, but actually all the events I've been doing so far are conversations with academics and fellow reporters have been really nuanced. And it seems like there's a hunger for people who want to admit there are no simple solutions and to talk about that. But it doesn't' seem like here's a particular space or a think tank that has that approach. It seems-Bill:The think tanks probably are the place. I mean there are other ... The folks at SupChina are trying to do that. I don't know if you've talked to them. Kaiser's got his podcast and they do their conference. I think their conference ... We're recording on the 1st of November so they're I think next week. But in general, I don't know, it's also ... Like anything, it's hard to have a more textured or kind of deeper discussion in these 30 minute chunks or when you're sitting on a panel. It's just putting in the time and having ... Like you're doing, talking to me and you're talking to lots of people for your book. And this is a topic that has probably come up in most of your conversations and it's just something we're going to have to keep talking about. I know over the next few months there are at least two more books that are coming out about China's influence in the world. And so it'll be interesting to see where those goes in terms of how they impact or move the discourse and how those get played. And again, I think it's like I said, me struggling with how do you address these issues that are very real and influence interference without going overboard and over-exaggerating and destroying innocent people's lives. Which I think has already happened and continues to be a big risk.Joanna:I do think simple answers that people need to pay better attention and not just to get a shallow understanding, but to really understand the nitty-gritty and try to untangle complexities. And support the people who are trying to do this work. A lot of their names are in my book. If you don't want to buy it, flip to the back of the notes and you'll get their names and look up those articles. People like Yangyang Cheng, Helen Gao. People who are straddling both worlds, Chinese and Western. Because of those real lived experiences, their perspectives are just naturally very nuanced and insightful, I think. So people are doing this work, its just they're not the ones on CNN and getting book deals because of structures power. So support NüVoices.Bill:Absolutely. Like you said, I'm a supporter of NüVoices, I'm very happy to put a link to that as well. Support you through Patreon, right? We should move you over to Substack, but that's a different discussion. That's my bias. Well look, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to speak with you and I hope that many of you listeners will go out and buy the book. It's really a worthwhile read and Joanna really has great reporting, great perspectives. And this book is really important contribution to the conversation we all need to be having about China and the future and China's role in the world. So thank you and hope to talk to you again soon.Joanna:Thank you so much for all of your work, really platforming those more quality, well-informed sources on China. You've run the newsletter for a long time, so I think that makes a big difference as well because you use your expertise to point people to credible, good sources. So I'll also subscribe to your newsletter.Bill:Thank you. Get full access to Sinocism at sinocism.com/subscribe

Chapter 60: Patience and Optimism - Bill GatesDevin: A few years ago, you wrote about superpowers in your annual letter. What is your superpower?Bill: Well, if I have one, it has something to do with optimism about scientific innovation and being able to gather teams of people. My experience at Microsoft was assembling teams of engineers and understanding what was on track/off track, being patient for things that, in that case, usually took five or six years. In the world of medicine, unfortunately, it's like ten years. The HIV vaccine—between when people started working on it and when we'll finally have one—that will have been almost 25 years. So the patience required, the need to have multiple strategies, so it's there in pushing for innovations.And then directing the resources that I'm lucky enough to have both through Microsoft and that Warren Buffett has made available. Thank goodness it's allowed us to be ambitious, including the scale we're at on polio. Warren was just in Seattle this week, and I was saying to him, “Hey, Pakistan—a few setbacks.” And he said, “You gotta keep going. You know, it's great that you're doing this.”Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft and co-chair of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, was, for nearly a generation, the wealthiest person on the planet. Among billionaires, he has been the role model for genuine philanthropy. Using the Giving Pledge, he has advocated for donating the majority of one’s wealth to solve society’s most pressing problems.He personally executes this pledge through his foundation. The Gates Foundation is the largest private foundation in the world. For years, its most significant funding commitment has been to the eradication of polio. While the end of polio will not be celebrated in 2021, there are early signs that the last case of wild poliovirus could be this year. As of this writing, there have been just two cases in the entire world, one each in Afghanistan and Pakistan.The bigger problem now is the number of circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus (cVDPV) cases. One in several million immunizations using the Albert Sabin oral polio vaccine mutates, and a child catches or becomes contagious with the disease. In communities with low vaccination rates, polio spreads. In 2021, there have been dozens of cVDPV cases.This problem highlights the contribution of the Gates Foundation. Under Bill’s active leadership, the Gates Foundation began work a decade ago on a new oral vaccine that cannot mutate to cause even a single case of polio.At the time, India, which many had expected to be the last country with polio cases, appeared to have eradicated the disease. A few years later, that result was confirmed. So, as the Gates Foundation was talking about developing a new polio vaccine that might not be ready for use for a decade, many thought it would never be needed because the disease would be eradicated before a new vaccine could be approved.Fast forward, and the incredible foresight is clear. The Gates Foundation and its partners in the Global Polio Eradication Initiative (Rotary International, the World Health Organization, UNICEF, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and the Global Vaccine Alliance) are now deploying the novel vaccine to replace the traditional Sabin oral vaccine.The novel vaccine could be the only way to stop the spread of polio as immunization rates fall in countries that haven’t had a case of polio in years or even decades. In such places, one mutated vaccination can start an outbreak. The novel vaccine shepherded by Bill himself will be the linchpin to polio eradication.The novel vaccine is also a great example of Bill using his superpowers: optimism and patience. His particular brand of optimism focused on his ability to move the vaccine process forward quickly enough to play a role in eradication while at the same time having the patience to work on it for a decade.Following Bill’s example, you can make optimism and patience your superpowers, too.How to Develop Optimism and Patience as SuperpowersBill’s optimism and patience have helped make the world a better place, especially for the millions of children who would have contracted polio had he not worked to prevent it. You can develop the same superpowers.In Chapter 56 with Slava Rubin, you read about how to develop optimism as a superpower. Here, you will read how to use your optimism to strengthen your patience and how patience can amplify and expand all your superpowers.Operating with the view that your efforts will bring desired results makes patience easier to manifest. Good things always seem to take longer than expected, but remaining hopeful helps you keep working for the outcomes you want. Bill worked for a decade on the new vaccine, hoping it would arrive in time to be of help in the fight to eradicate polio. Thank heaven he did.Psychologist Paul Jenkins has some ideas for developing patience that I’ve adapted for this chapter.[1]1.       Think about your thinking. Developing patience requires you to think about the fact that you have some control over your thinking. You can observe your thoughts and feelings, the inner dialog in your head. (Psychologists call this metacognition.) Not only can you monitor what’s happening in your mind, but you can also change it.2.       See your expectations. Now that you are in your head, you can see how things that cause you to feel disappointed, frustrated or impatient often happen because what is happening doesn’t align with your expectations around timing. Some people who will camp overnight, waiting for the first chance to buy a new consumer product, get frustrated waiting a few minutes for fast food. It is not the wait that causes the problem; it is the expectation that fast food should come faster. Look at how your expectations about your progress may be contributing to your impatience.3.       Assess the now. Recognizing that you may not be where you’d hoped, and that may have important implications, ask yourself if it is too late? Bill hoped the vaccine would be available sooner but could see its future value. Progress may have been slower than expected, but it was not too late. The novel vaccine may hold the key to polio eradication.4.       Inventory your progress. Take a moment in your pain to reflect on the progress you’ve made, the skills you’ve learned and the people you have helped. If you have been working to address a significant social problem, you’ll have something to show for it, even if it is primarily a better understanding of the challenge.5.       Accept what is. Understanding that you aren’t where you hoped to be, you can choose to accept that reality. The choice to accept the situation can be a conscious one that helps relieve the pain you’re feeling.6.       Change your expectations. You don’t need to give up on your goals, but there may be times during your journey to impact when you have to recognize that you aren’t where you expected to be. Recalibrate. Change your expectations. This adjustment will contribute to a sense of relief and allow you to move forward.7.       Keep working. One final step to help you overcome feelings of impatience is to keep working. Taking action is empowering. Once you’ve completed the steps above, do something to move you toward your ultimate goal.With patience, you have a superpower that strengthens every other superpower in the book. Learning to move forward patiently will improve your tenacity and persistence. It will reflect on your optimism, allowing you to be hopeful even when others despair. By giving yourself time to develop any of the superpowers in this book, you enable yourself to conquer more of them.Remember, some of the superpowers in the book may be yours to master. Others may illuminate a weakness that limits your success. With effort and time, you can eliminate such shortcomings. No one has all 60 superpowers described in this book. Not even Bill. Following his example, pairing optimism and patience, can enable you to do more in the long run than you ever imagined.This is an excerpt from my book, Superpowers for Good.[1] November 14, 2019, Dr. Paul Jenkins, Vicki Jenkins, “How To Be Patient In A Relationship,” Get full access to Superpowers for Good at devinthorpe.substack.com/subscribe

Full Transcript   In episode 4 of Manager Minute, Bill Robinson, Director of the Michigan Bureau of Services for Blind Persons, and Cora McNabb, Executive Director at the Kentucky Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, join Carol Pankow, host of Manager Minute, to lend their experiences on navigating the critical DSA/DSU relationship so that VR's mission doesn't slip through the cracks.   Learn how Bill and Cora dealt with the challenges and the most significant challenges they faced. These challenges included cultural challenges and keeping the blind agency identity alive. Find out how the mergers are going today and what Bill and Cora share about the successful strategies that worked for their agencies.   You can find out more about VRTAC-QM on the web at: https://www.vrtac-qm.org/                                                                       Stay up to date by following VRTAC-QM on Facebook and follow us on Twitter @VRTAC_QM   About VRTAC-QM Partnering with State Vocational Rehabilitation Agencies (SVRAs) to enhance service delivery and maximize outcomes through quality program and resource management.  The purpose of the VRTAC-QM is to provide training and technical assistance that will enable State VR agency personnel to manage available resources, improve effective service delivery, and increase the number and quality of employment outcomes for individuals with disabilities. The VRTAC-QM provides TA and training in VR program and performance quality management, fiscal and resource quality management of the VR program, and general quality management of organizations. You can request technical assistance from the VRTAC-QM by contacting your TA Liaison directly, contacting any member of the Center you wish, or by filling out the information on our main website and clicking on submit. While on the main website, join our mailing list to receive updates on training and new activities occurring within the center.    Full Transcript: VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Bridging the Gap Between the DSA and the DSU so that VR's Mission Doesn't Slip Through the Cracks.   Speaker1: Manager MINUTE brought to you by the VRTAC for quality management conversations powered by V.R., one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Today, I'm joined by Bill Robinson, director of the Michigan Bureau of Services for Blind Persons, and Cora McNabb, executive director at the Kentucky Office of Vocational Rehabilitation. I know you are both so busy. Bill, you're the president of NCSAB and Cora, you're in the midst of federal monitoring right now. So thanks so much for taking the time to come on the show. So, Bill, how are you and how are things in Michigan?   Bill: It's great to be here. And I want to thank you for this opportunity.  In Michigan, we've actually returned to the field as of July 12. And so our line rehab instructors or field teachers are out there serving the blind VR customers and pre-employment transition customers. And then our training center has been open and our counselors are also seeing people in person. We're hoping to continue that and continue to serve our customers.   Carol: Very cool. Good to hear you're back. I'm sure folks are really enjoying that in-person training and interaction. So, Cora, always a pleasure to talk with you. How's it going in the Bluegrass State of Kentucky?   Cora: Carol, it's going great. Like Bill here. As of June 11th, we went back to in-person services and brought everybody back. Everyone's on a hybrid schedule that they're all working and serving individuals. Both of our centers are open and serving individuals, day students. But we haven't brought anyone back residentially as yet. And we have been talking about it. And of course, the rise in numbers is concerning. And so we would make sure we do the right thing. And then, as you said, we're in the middle of federal monitoring. So things have been very busy here.   Carol: Things are happening for sure. Well, I thought of you both as we're unpacking the topic today of navigating the critical DSA and DSU relationship so that VR's mission doesn't slip through the cracks. I know both of you have undergone changes in the past five years and have some really good expertise to lend to this topic. Both of you oversee a designated state unit that is housed within a larger designated state agency. Bill, you came from a recent change in DSA's and Cora, you just lived through the combining of the blind and general agency as well in the last three years. I was doing a little digging and since 2014, there have been two states where the VR agencies combined the blind and the general together and 12 agencies moved DSAs with you being the 12th, 10 of those DSA moves were to the workforce Labor Department. So it does make some sense. And coinciding with the foundation that was set by WIOA that really forced the issue for VR to partner with the other core partners. The VRTAC for Quality Management is working on a webinar in conjunction with RSA to unpack the Technical Assistance Circular 12-03, which is organizational structure and non-delegable responsibility of the DSU for the VR program, and then also TAC 13-02, which is reorganization of the DSA and DSU for the VR program, and we hope to have that webinar out this fall. So, Bill, I want to start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about the change you most recently lived through with your shift in DSAs? And where were you located before? And where are you now?   Bill: We started out in a State Department that was very unique for rehabilitation. It was the Licensing and Regulatory Affairs Department. So we were asking, hey, this is great being in this department. The department was very supportive, but at the same time, it was kind of interesting because we really didn't have much to do with licensing businesses or regulatory affairs, but yet there we were. And so when the governor changed over to the new administration, so we went from Republican to Democrat, the new administration looked at some reorganizations and the move ended up going from law or licensing and regulatory affairs to the Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity.   Carol: So you're one of those labor moves as well? That's interesting. Yeah, really interesting that you started out. I don't think I've heard of any other state agency being in a department quite like you were in Bill.   Bill: Yeah, it was kind of interesting. And our general agency was actually in DHS. So neither of us were really sitting at labor at the time.   Carol: Cora, I can still remember back when Kentucky was going through the idea of combining the blind in general agency, and I remember that was going on for quite some time while the fine details were worked out. And unlike Bill's situation, your situation was a little different in that your two separate agencies were now combining together under one DSA. So can you tell us a little bit about the changes you went through and what designated state agency you are under?   Cora: We are under the Department of Education and Workforce in Kentucky and it did go on for quite a while. We actually took our time in combining the two agencies and involved a lot of the stakeholder groups that were involved, especially the blind advocacy organizations. And of course, I had been with the blind agency for at that time around 12 years. So we wanted to make sure that we protected those specialized services. And so we worked together. And about the time that we merged and combine the two agencies, they decided to abolish our fiscal unit in our agency and they moved it to the Department of Workforce. They moved it under the department later, which a couple of years later down the road, they actually moved it to a cabinet level. And so we had more change. But that resulted in the loss of a lot of veteran staff and veteran knowledge. So we not only went under a combining of two agencies, we also went under an additional change that involved our fiscal unit at that time.   Carol: Wow. I know you've lived through a lot there, so I want to take you back to that moment. You were notified the change was definitely going to happen. How were you notified? Cora, I'm going to start with you. And how much lead time were you given saying, all right, we're going to combine these agencies now?   Cora: Well, we knew that there were some discussions that were occurring. And at the time, the leadership was they also at that time? Well, it was a little bit later. They also moved adult Ed under the workforce program. But they wanted to have all the workforce programs under one department, which they were successful in doing at that time. And then also they wanted to centralize the operations, those back door operations. So we had kind of heard the rumors a few months before they actually approached us and told us about it. So at that time, I had a call with the Rehab Services Administration and the commissioner of workforce at that time was on the call and I was on the call along with Becky Cabe, whom at that time I was the interim director over at the blind agency, and Becky Cabe was the interim director over the general agency. So they talked to us in person. And then we had a call with our RSA to inform them of the changes.   Carol: So, Bill, how about you? How were you notified and how much lead time were you given?   Bill: That's a pretty funny story. In June of 18, the general agency director and I were giving a presentation for the leadership forum for CSAVR. And I had just finished on stage and was stepping down and my cell phone goes off and it's my immediate department director of Laura calling me and she says, hey, you're going to see a press release in about a half an hour, then announces the fact that you're moving from LARA to this new Department of Labor and economic opportunity. And I was like, oh, how is this going to work? So it was a complete surprise to me and the general agency director.   Carol: Holy smokes, Bill. That is a crazy story. So you literally found out with a half hour notice that boom, you're moving.   Bill: Yes. And then that was June. And the actual moving day for the department was August 12 and the fiscal year for us ended September 30th. So we just had a couple of months to try to figure out what the heck are we going to do here? Plus, we were looking at two closings within our fiscal year and we didn't know how that was going to work.   Carol: Holy smokes. Cora, I know you said you had reached out to RSA right away. Bill, did you reach out to RSA right away to help you with this move?   Bill: I think I was in such shock that the general director and I got together and we just got our teams together and pulled out that TAC 13-02 and started going through it together as. Leadership on both sides. We also had contacted RSA to set up a joint call. I don't know if I remember calling, but I called as many directors as I could that had gone through something like this. I know I talked to Alan McClain at the time because Arkansas was in the middle of it. And I talked to Cheryl Fuller, who was about two years into it. So I was reaching out to everybody at that point.   Carol: Smart move. I know in I work on the webinar we're developing, we're stressing how important it is to involve RSA early to ensure that that transition can happen smoothly and that all your bases are covered. Things like you got to change the state plan and ensuring your grant award is set up so you can draw down money in a new agency and more so what were one or two of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome and I'm going to start with you.   Cora: I think that because we were not very happy about them moving our fiscal unit. And so we did have a conversation about that, but we knew that it was going to happen. So the best thing that you can do is figure out how you can make it work and for your agency to get through the changes and accomplish what you need to. And we did work with our state liaison at RSA through the whole thing. And it is a lot of work to get your state plan updated and depending on when needed, your comprehensive needs assessment, all of that things don't always come together and match the way that you would like them to. So you just have to figure out what the best way is to make it work. And then I think it was probably involving the stakeholders in the process because it was a really difficult for the staff to come through those changes and adjust.   Carol: Yeah, I can imagine that was really tough dealing with all of that. So, Bill, how about for you? What are one or two of the biggest challenges you had to overcome in this move?   Bill: Well, I would echo some of what Cora said and just build off of that, because the short time frame we had, we had to really get moving in. RSA was very helpful in that process. Our state liaison, the fiscal folks at that point, there was not a RSA commissioner. So we were working closely with Carol Dobak as well as our liaison staff. And I think Cora touched on one key point is that for staff, this is a big change. And we had to over communicate with staff. We had, like we said, we have to open up the state portal for the state plan amendment. We had to communicate to our stakeholders. We have to ensure our vendors that they would get paid despite the kind of awkward closing within a fiscal year and how that was going to work. And then we had to make sure our counselors and our staff understood how to stop services within one period of performance and take that little six week period of performance that we had to the end of the grant year and make sure that that was handled correctly. So logistically, there was just a lot of logistics and we actually had spreadsheets and checklists and all kinds of a set up. And we were running that stuff by RSA and our fiscal folks and collaborating with our general agency to make sure we're on the same page. And that we were not missing something. So it was a lot of communication and collaboration.   Carol: But I think your background was well suited then with your accounting background for dealing with all of that, because you had that added weird complexity of that little bit of time, you know, where the switch over in the period of performance and all of that. So you knew how to address that. I don't think everybody could have done that.   Bill: Yeah, I think also in my business experience, I was in charge of a lot of mergers and acquisitions with different companies and would take operational control of the acquired entity before merging. And then this was no different than a merger or acquisition. And you're putting together organizations that don't know each other very well and accounting systems that are different, procedures that are different. It's really it can be overwhelming. And I think the checklist certainly helped.   Carol: I'm glad- glad to hear that. So I know many times when we think a change, I think we think about change at a higher level. We think about those concrete things, such as change in structure or the hierarchy. We think about changes in the fiscal activities like you were talking about Bill, and all of those are relevant considerations, but it's also critical to consider those smaller, abstract, but really important details, such as the shift in culture. So to start with, you might imagine that combining of two of our agencies has completely altered the identity of blind services in Kentucky. Cora, can you speak to that is a huge shift?   Cora: And we had separate agencies, separate policies and practices. Sure, both of us were a VR agency but it was very different. We had two separate categories for order of selection, so we had to look at that and come up with the best of the best in moving forward is how we kind of presented it to the staff. There was a huge loss of at least the staff felt like from the blind agency, a loss of identity. They spoke of that quite often. And I would try to emphasize with them that you're the same. The services that you're delivering are the same. So the only way that you can lose your identity is if you lose who you are. And you're not going to do that because the consumers are still there and you're still serving them. So that was probably one of the most difficult things. And they talked a lot about how even now there are still things that come up and there are still things that we're dealing with. And they mentioned obviously we always hear there isn't enough communication. But I realize that for the staff that we're in the smaller agency, communication happened a lot differently in the smaller agency than it does in the large general agency. And so a lot of times when they would say that we're seeing that smaller organizational feeling of family that was there. So that's a big thing for individuals to adjust to. And then they want to make sure that you still emphasize how important those specialized skills are so that they don't lose that sense of who they are in their profession and what they do.   Carol: I love that you said that, Cora, and you were the right person to be in that role with that transition. You came from that blind agency. All of us here came from that kind of blind agency experience. And we get that small sense of family and rolling in. I just love that you were we're talking with staff about not losing themselves and what they do and how critical that was. So you both were in the right place at the right time with this move. So, Bill, you were able to maintain your identity, but has your culture shifted in any way due to the reorganization into a new DSA?   Bill: Yeah, I don't know if our culture shifted because we've had a really good culture. When I came on board, we kind of did a shift at that point. And we've stayed true to our mission, vision and core values. But what was interesting is we had to shift in terms of how we communicate with our department and also how we work with our department. And just to give you an example and common touch, small, specialized services, which certainly is where VR is and especially where blindness, as I remember sitting down in a team with the new department director and I was talking to him about our services and I mentioned the training center where we do adjustment to blindness and we serve two hundred and fifty one and the prior fiscal year. And he looked at me and said, two hundred and fifty one thousand. I said, oh no, no, two hundred and fifty one individuals. And it is kind of that work force kind of thought where we serve the masses. Whereas Cora pointed out VR is very specialized services, especially blindness services. And because the specialization, we look at the individual and we're laser focused on the needs of the individual and customizing those services around the individual, where I think from workforce standpoint, it's more about how many people can we serve and what kind of mass data can we accumulate to tell our story. That was kind of the cultural shift for me. When he said two hundred and fifty one thousand, I said, well, wait a minute, I think we're going to have to have more discussions.   Carol: Oh, yeah. I bet that was a big shift for the DSA folks when they're talking about that. I came from a workforce agency too, and I always remember the people in Title one your and the Wagner Peyser side, when you think they've got massive numbers of people they're dealing with and our small numbers of consumers. They just they didn't always get that we did so we led a little exercise with our DSA staff where we had them actually just do a little simulated exercise under sleep shades. And it was led by one of our instructors. And it was really interesting just to give them a little peek into what we were dealing with. And it did help. It helped that whole group have a little better understanding of what we were about, thinking about all the changes you've both undergone, both larger concrete changes, also smaller abstract changes like culture shifting. How did you navigate through the challenges you faced and what were some successful strategies you used? And, Bill, I'm going to start with you.   Bill: The biggest thing I could think or recommend to individuals is you have to communicate, communicate and communicate. And really, you're looking at all your customers from internal customers to external customers to your stakeholders and your community partners. And you're really having to make sure that there's an understanding of how this is all going to work. And also, you know, I move to labor with the other core of your WIOA partners was very impactful and could be for the future and for a positive spin on that. That was a really great thing. And to be co-located with our general agency as well. We thought there was some really good things that came out of this. But one of the things I think was helpful was RSA and the problem solving that they engaged with us as well as just our DSA and helping us in that transition process and then the whole collaborative effort that it took.   Carol: I can't think of a better person to do that, Bill, than you like. You are the master at communication and collaboration for sure. So Cora, how about you? What were some successful strategies that you used?   Cora: I think that we tried to be as transparent as possible. We tried to share and involve everybody as much as possible in the processes. We made sure the field staff were involved in the policy development and the state rehab council. So I think that keeping it as simple as possible, I think probably knowing that you're not going to make everybody happy no matter what you do. We certainly had a lot of problem solving and decision making that we had to make. And you have to sit with that and be comfortable with it because you just can't please everybody and not everyone is going to come through on the other side after you're like that and all that change. You have those people that have a difficult time dealing with change anyway, but maybe do the best that you can and just know that there are going to be people that aren't going to be happy. And you can do a lot of time trying to make them happy and they're never going to get to that happy place. So you can hope that they'll maybe go somewhere else and find that happiness. Those would be the two things that I would remember from everything like that.   Carol: I really like that. So. So I know some time has passed now since all of this happened for both of you, cause I think you've been in there like three years now and I think it's been over a year for you. So how are things going now? Cora, I'm going to have you take that one first.   Cora: Well, I did mention the year that are combining of the agency was in two thousand and eighteen, so we did it effective October 1st 2018. So we are now three years past. And I think that you have to give yourself time because you'll have list after list after list. You have to do this. You want to begin to check things up. But I think we've tried to take our time. We do have policies that we're still working on, still writing policies and procedures, still working on the vendor process. Lots of things that we have in play. And one of the things that happened with the fiscal reorganized mentioned that then a couple of years later, they moved the fiscal operations to a cabinet level. And now we've undergone another reorg in our cabinet where they split the workforce programs. And so part of them are under labor and then part of us under the department and in the Department of Workforce. So that's been a major upheaval that's just happened over the last year or so. It was more change, and especially with the fiscal operations the way that they were, there were a lot of things that. The cracks because of how complicated the VR program is, still trying to pick up the pieces of that as well, and then by them doing another reorg where they have moved part of the program under labor, they moved to line Wagner Peyser, farmworker,  veterans, but they moved the operations under the Department of Workforce. It's kind of split right down the middle. So that's change that culture from what it was 30 years ago. So we're still undergoing lots of changes and then you put the pandemic on top of that. So just a lot of changes. And we've had to be very, very flexible even when we weren't happy about it.   Carol: So how has that impacted you with the partnership? So it seems like they wanted to have the people all together and now you're sort of split up again, which is really interesting. How's that going with partnerships?   Cora: Well, I think the partnerships on the local level have continued. It's probably more on a state level where there are still lots of things to be worked out and it's kind of in flux. But then with the onset of the pandemic, it's disrupted things as well. So right now, it's kind of hard to tell exactly what will be there after the clouds clear, you might say. We're dealing with so many different big factors that are going on.   Carol: Sure. And I completely understand that. So, Bill, how about you in times past? So how are things going now?   Bill: Yeah, so it was probably been about a little over two years and really the first eight months or so. And the new department was really about the new department just adjusting, everybody adjusting, because there was a lot of movement of not only V.R. but other agencies. And then as we had that first full year, I think the main thing was that we found like at the higher level working on the MOU use that we were all interested in, those seemed to work very smoothly because everybody was under the same umbrella department. The one thing that I think was the benefit of the pandemic was we were so new to each other. The pandemic increased all this extra communication via teams and the ability to meet more often. And so all of a sudden, we're getting to know each other better, even down to the counselor level. We're starting to know each other and the other programs a lot better. And I think that's been one of the benefits, as well as the fact that being in the Department of Labor during the pandemic with a lot of states were cutting other programs in the Pentagon or wherever it was, they were not immune to that. Our area was somewhat protected because labor was so important in terms of coming out of the pandemic. So it's going well. I mean, we're still learning from each other and we still have our growing pains, but it's going pretty well.   Carol: That's good to hear. That's good to hear. At least there were some upsides from the pandemic as well. Holy cow. So looking back on all this, what we've talked about, are there any other lessons you've learned or any words of wisdom you have for folks out there that might be facing this? Because it seems like this is a continued trend if the state hasn't done it yet. There are these continued moves that keep happening over time. So, Bill, I'm going to I'm going to give you the floor on any other parting words of wisdom.   Bill: Well, great. Thank you. I was just reading an article about successful business the other day. It wasn't about the structure or where the business grew out of. It was about serving the customer. The bottom line was, if you're serving the customer, you will be successful. I think the main thing is for us wisdom. I would pass on to anybody going through this to be true to yourself. Make sure that your mission as vocational rehabilitation does not get lost in this process. And also there's mission creep and mission drift. And it's easy to get into a new department. And there's a lot of excitement, a lot of other things going on. And you can have mission creep and mission drift. But if you're serving your customer and you're staying true to that, your mission, I think you can come out of these types of reorganizations really well.   Carol: I had a write that down-mission creep and mission drift. I like that. Holy cow. That's a good thing. Yeah, I love that. Good words for folks. How about you, Cora? Any parting words of wisdom?   Cora: And I think that Bill said. Very well, and that's really what I tried to emphasize, what we merged into the two agencies, that you're still here, you're still serving people and people are still benefiting from those services. I think that it's important you can dig your heels in and resist or you can work with everyone that's around you to make the change and make it work. And I think that's very important that you work together collaboratively to figure it out and make it work for the VA program.   Carol: Well, as always, it was such a pleasure to speak with you both. I sincerely hope that today's conversation helps our community think about navigating that DSA relationship.  We hope to see gaps bridged in a meaningful way. Thank you so much for joining us, and have a great day.     Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple podcast, Google podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

I had the opportunity to sit down with celebrity cosmetic dentist, Dr. Bill Dorfman. We chatted about how he came up in the world from childhood to creating one of the most famous dentist practices in Studio City, CA. On top of the practice he created, he also started Discus Dental with a dear friend of his, which was a global leader in professional tooth whitening products with brands such as Zoom®!, BriteSmile®, and NiteWhite® and they eventually sold the company to Royal Philips Electronics for millions. Dr. Bill has appeared on Larry King Live, Oprah, The Doctors and was the only dentist to appear on ABC's Extreme Makeover. Now with his extremely successful career, he has turned some of his focus towards philanthropy and the LEAP Foundation for high school and college students. You're going to see this side of Dr. Bill and his passion towards entrepreneurship, success, giving back and his foundation. As always, thanks so much for listening to the podcast and I would so appreciate a rating of 5 starts and a review. It would really mean the world to me. Much love, Joe Dr. Bill Dorfman Celebrity Cosmetic Dentist, Partner of Discus Dental, Inventor of Zoom! and Founder of the LEAP Foundation Author of: Billion Dollar Smile: A Complete Guide to Your Extreme Smile Makeover Website: https://www.billdorfmandds.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbilldorfman/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrBillDorfman LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drbilldorfman/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/DrBillDorfman Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, my guest today is Dr. Bill Dorfman. Dr. Bill, welcome.   Dr. Bill: Thank you. How are you?   Joe: Great. So it's a pleasure to have you here with a lot of the guests that I have on, I really like to give the audience an idea of who you are and not just jump in to where we are today. So if can you give us some background of your time line, how you decided to get into dentistry where you grew up, just kind of bring us up to today is is slow, slower, as fast as you want to.   Dr. Bill: Sure, I am a native of California, I grew up in Granada Hills as a little kid, I happen to have an accident where I knocked out my baby teeth. We had a great family dentist. And at some point I just thought this would be a cool thing to do and help people the way he helped me. And so at the age of about three, I said, I'm going to be a dentist. And it just never wavered. I was a weird kid. I mean, how many kids want to be a dentist? Right. But I've always been weird and I've always kind of marched to the beat of a different drum. I never felt like I fit into any, like, group or peg. I just kind of always did my own thing. I was like the Switzerland of a kid. I was friends with everybody, but not really part of anything, you know, like I swam. But I wasn't always with the swimmers and I played football, but I wasn't with the football players and student government. But, like, I just was kind of a free spirited kid that didn't really I didn't really, like, do what most normal kids do. I don't know. It was funny. I had this conversation with my parents recently and I said, you know.   Dr. Bill: How was I as a kid, like was I easy to raise, hard to raise, and they're like, you are perfect like you. And, you know, and I honestly don't ever remember I never argued with my parents. I never got into trouble. I was a weird kid. I just I always just kind of did what I was supposed to do. I guess it was in my mind, like the path of least resistance. I didn't smoke. I didn't drink. I didn't do drugs. Like I mean, I always kind of just did what I was supposed to do and I was happy go lucky guy. And, you know, I went to school and it's funny because I was always voted most likely to succeed in kindergarten, in grade school and junior high and high. And I was like, why do people always say that? I don't know. It was just a weird thing, even in dental school and. You know, we grew up really poor. I mean, I was one of five kids, I started working when I was five years old. I had a job. I worked in in the in the yard for neighbors. I would go pick weeds. And then when I was old enough to push a lawnmower, I would pull weeds and do the lawn mower.   Dr. Bill: And then when I got a little bit older, I got a job working at Ralph's, which is a grocery store. And then I worked as a janitor. My mother was a nursery school teacher. And so I would go to school and I would work as a janitor and clean the schools. And, you know, my parents, I would say we were rich, rich, rich in love, poor monetary things. And maybe that was good, you know? I mean, I literally supported myself. I mean, outside of buying food, all my clothes, everything I wanted, I just I bought you know, it's funny because I have three daughters and I almost feel like when they got into college, I got into college, too, because I was so active in helping them write their entrance stuff and did it. But my parents had no idea. You know, one day I got a letter, I'm like, Hey, Mom, Dad, I'm going to UCLA. They're like, Oh, that's great, sweetie. Then they'll clue, you know? I mean, it was just that's just how it was. I was the independent kid. I just did my own thing. I remember. Graduating UCLA, I got a call from the dean's office and I was awarded the outstanding senior award, which is kind of a big deal, right?   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: So I call my folks and my mom, dad, I get on the phone, they're both on the phone. I'm like, you won't believe this. I said, well, I just got a call from the dean's office and I'm going to be the outstanding senior at UCLA graduating class. My mother says, What's not to believe? A lot. They picked me, there's ten thousand students,   Joe: Right.   Dr. Bill: She goes, darling, do you really think there's somebody better?   Joe: That's awesome.   Dr. Bill: I'm like, Mom, you're like totally missing. My parents had no idea. And it was actually kind of funny, you know, and, you know, so, you know, I kind of went through and I graduate UCLA. I finished that, you know, going to UCLA. And then I got in a dental school. My first choice is dental, which was a great school. It was a three year program. And as I was entering my senior year, I realized, you know, I've never seen the world or anything. Actually, I had never even really been on an airplane. And it's like I need to open up this practice and be tethered to a specific area. Like I didn't want to do that. So I did some research and I found a program in Switzerland that was the only clinic literally in the world that wasn't a third world country where an American dentist could work legally. Problem is, there were four hundred applicants and only one position, and I was bound and determined to get that. So I had every professor in my dental school write me a letter of recommendation. And they were amazing letters, you know. I know. I wrote them all I   Joe: That's   Dr. Bill: Mean,   Joe: Right.   Dr. Bill: Basically, I would say, can you write me a letter and they do I know I have to   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: Write another letter and then say I'll write it if your personal lives. So I did that and I soon realized that was getting me nowhere. So then I started calling the director of the clinic back in nineteen eighty three. This was not easy. We didn't have cell phones. You know, I, you know, I couldn't make long distance phone calls from my dental school, you know, what am I getting like keep putting quarters like a lot of your millennialist. Don't you know that you actually used to have to put money in a pay   Joe: Exactly,   Dr. Bill: Phone. Right.   Joe: I was there.   Dr. Bill: Right. So there is and you can use a credit card and none of this. So I would have to time it at home. And and even then, it wasn't easy. A lot of times you couldn't get through. It didn't work at the bank. I start calling him and calling him and I tell kids and we'll talk about my leave program a little later on, there will be life defining moments in your life. Sometimes you plan on, sometimes you don't. Sometimes they just happen. And this was one that I really didn't plan, but it was so fortuitous that it happened. And I'm on the phone with the director. His name was Mr. Schreyer. And I said as I realized I was getting nowhere with these phone calls. Can I take you to lunch? Because I had heard somewhere that, like, you should take people to lunch   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: And the crazy thing is and he said it, he goes, But you're in San Francisco and I'm in Switzerland, I'm like, no problem, I'll fly there. Which is even crazier because I was broke like I had no money. I couldn't even afford, like the 30 cents to go on the bus every day of school. That's how broke I was. I would walk like two miles. And so he said yes. And I figured out a way to borrow money. And I went to Switzerland   Joe: Wait, but don't   Dr. Bill: And   Joe: Go past   Dr. Bill: I.   Joe: This point. Wait, I want to know what you told your parents when you said I'm going to Switzerland to take the head of the department at the dental school. Out to lunch. I want to know what your parents said to that.   Dr. Bill: They thought it was a great idea.   Joe: That's incredible.   Dr. Bill: Good luck. You know,   Joe: That's   Dr. Bill: I mean,   Joe: Awesome.   Dr. Bill: They had no clue. So anyhow, I did it. There was a girl that I had been friends with my whole life that, you know, I had kind of hoped that I would marry one day. That never happened. But we're still best friends. But I took her with me and I figured if I got stuck on words, she was very talkative and she could help me out. But the two of us took him to lunch and he hired me.   Joe: That's   Dr. Bill: And   Joe: Incredible.   Dr. Bill: It literally changed my life. I mean, I got an opportunity to live in Europe. For two years, I learned how to ski trip about salesmanship of the scandal to I'm completely fluent in French. I   Joe: Wow.   Dr. Bill: And I was really not gifted in languages in school. I mean, and I still I have a godson in Switzerland. I mean and I still have very close friends there. So it was a great, great, great experience for me. And it really gave me an opportunity to see the world. I came back to L.A. I really became enamored with cosmetic dentistry as opposed to just general dentistry. And so I did something that we also teach Italy. It's called Kopi Genius. I realized that the last thing Beverly Hills needed was another cosmetic dentist. So I found the five most successful cosmetic dentists and I called all of them and I said, Can I come in Chattanooga? Shadowing wasn't even a thing back then like they were what do what   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: I'm like now coming to watch you. And I did. And, you know, there weren't a lot of students at the time doing this, but they all five of them said the same thing to me. You're really different. I think what they were saying in a nice way is you're weird, but they're really different, you know, because students would come in and watch me do dentistry. And that's not what I did. What I did was I went in, I wanted to see how they brought the patients in the intake forms, what they said to the patients, how they brought them back to the treatment rooms, how they presented the treatment, and then how they performed the treatment, and then how they took the patient out of the room, how they collected money. I wanted to get paid and I didn't know how to collect money from people working in dental school. They teach you how to drill teeth. And in the clinic in Switzerland, I didn't have to deal with money. I just did the work. So I wanted to learn how a business ran and all that. And I sat there like a sponge in these offices. And my goal was to make an office better than theirs, to take the best of the best from all of these these guys and make a better dental office.   Dr. Bill: And within two years I did it. You know, I had the busiest and probably still have the busiest dental office in all of Beverly Hills because I copy Genius and that's what I did on Instagram and Instagram became popular. I didn't just do it. I hired a whole team. I'm only going to in the world with a million followers on Instagram. You know, I didn't just do it. One of the things I teach, at least when you go go big and that's what I do, if I'm going to do something, I commit and I do it. So, you know, I started this dental practice soon after that, I started a company called Discus Dental where I invented Zoom. And we grew that company from zero to one point three dollars billion in sales. And I did it by hiring a great team. My best friend, Robert Heyman, was my business partner and he was a genius. And his father was Fred Hammond, who created Beverly Hills Giorgio Cosmetics, two seven, three of all Fred.   Joe: Well.   Dr. Bill: So Robert grew up in that industry. So he knew marketing and manufacturing and advertising. I knew dentistry and advertising. And together we built the largest tooth whitening company in the world. Zoom became Q to became the number one to fly new product in the world. And then we sold that company to Phillips back in 2010. And since then, I've been the featured dentist on ABC's Extreme Makeover, CBS of Doctors New York Times, best selling author, 20 Lifetime Achievement Award. Three Children, two ex-wives. This Thrill Ride.   Joe: Incredible. So I have to ask you, and this is for the entrepreneurs in the audience, because the question that would come to my mind is you're fresh back in the states from Switzerland and you decide that you're going to plant roots and probably one of the most expensive real estate areas in the world. How do you start up a dental office in the heart of Beverly Hills?   Dr. Bill: So I basically didn't put all my eggs in one basket, I grew up in Granada Hills, the difference between Granada Hills and Beverly Hills is astronomical. The only commonality is the word Ilze. Right. But I didn't know where I would usually drive more. I had the advantage holes of all the people I grew up with living there and coming to me. But I loved the allure of Beverly Hills. So I worked as an associate in two different dental offices. So it didn't cost me anything. I was a hired gun. I would go in and work and bring in patients. And I soon realized that I loved cosmetic dentistry. I love the mentality of people in a business area like centricity and, you know, and not so much kind of like family dentistry. And so I pretty much closed down the office and Granada Hills worked in in Century City. And the plan was I was working with an older fellow to buy him out. Well, as soon as we started getting closer and closer to the buyout date, I think my enthusiasm became infectious. And he decided he didn't want to quit anymore.   Joe: Oh.   Dr. Bill: And he was very sweet. And he said, you know, Bill, he said, you can do this by yourself. He said, you don't need to buy my practice. I'm going to stay here, open up your own practice. You have enough pay. I had more patients than he did   Joe: Oh,   Dr. Bill: After   Joe: Wow.   Dr. Bill: Just two years. And so I did. It was really fortuitous that the dentist right next door to us moved out of the building. And so there was a completely furnished dental suite. I didn't have to do any build out at all. All of the plumbing, the gas, the soft, everything was there. So I was really lucky. I moved into that suite is on the 11th floor, my building, and the only thing I needed was all the dental equipment, the chairs and the   Joe: Mm   Dr. Bill: Lights   Joe: Hmm.   Dr. Bill: And this and then another stroke of luck. There was a dentist in our building who was four or five flights above me who passed away. And there was a fully furnished dental office up there of all this equipment. And the building didn't know what to do with it. And it was a mess. It was a mess. So I went up there and and I had it evaluated and assessed. I was going to try and take out a loan or something. And the appraisal came in at close to seventy five thousand dollars for all that. I had three thousand dollars in the bank at the time. I mean, that's it. And so I, I went and I spoke to the owner of our building and I said, listen, I've been up on in that suite and it's it's a mess. I mean, and it was it was really disgusting and dirty. And I said, I will empty the suite. I will take all of the equipment, I will clean everything up and get it ready for you to read. And I'll give you three thousand dollars cash. And he said, fine.   Joe: Wow, that's   Dr. Bill: And   Joe: Chris.   Dr. Bill: I still I still have a lot of those instruments, and I this is 40 years I've been practicing. I have all the surgical like four extractions and I have all that stuff still in my office with that doctor's name engraved in it. But that was how I really opened up my office. I had no budget. I had no ad budget. Like, I couldn't advertise, but I realized something. And as an entrepreneur, I would say you need to sit back, look at your situation and really think outside the box. And this is what I did. I thought, OK, I'm in Century City. There is a five block radius of buildings around my office with 20000 thousand people coming to work every day. Right.   Joe: Hmm.   Dr. Bill: We know on average that 50 percent of those people don't have a regular dentist. OK, so that's you know, what was I'm sorry. It was fifty thousand people in that area. So that's twenty five thousand people don't have a regular dentist that work for me. Of those, twenty five thousand eighty percent of them work in companies with dental insurance so they don't even have to pay anything. They just need to come in and because I'm so close, they can walk over, they wouldn't have to drive. So what I did is I hired five kids from Beverly Hills High School, which is right next door to my dental office. And I made up these flyers for I think I paid three hundred bucks and I had them put a flyer in every single office in Century City. Now, this was way before 9/11, so there was no restrictions   Joe: Right.   Dr. Bill: You could go. And so basically by doing that, the flyer gave people a great first time offering to my office. If they had dental insurance, it was free. And I got something like 80 patients the very first month. And if we continue to do that and so we were basically getting patients in two ways, internal and external. Internal was taking the patients that came in, giving them the greatest dental experience we could and asking them to refer friends and then externally going out and putting out more and more and more flyers and bringing in patients. The next month I got something like one hundred new patients. And honestly, since then I have probably had no less than 90 new patients a month my entire career. And there were I mean, and the average dentist gets like 20. But I have never not been busy even during the pandemic. We've been busy. I'm busier now than I've been in years because I always say I invented Zoom when people think I the video conference, what it was. But people are sitting on Zoom looking at their smile,   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: Going, I'm not really happy with that. I'm doing more cosmetic dentistry right now than I've ever done in my life. It's it's a   Joe: That's   Dr. Bill: Boom.   Joe: Crazy. And when you said when you started your practice you were going to concentrate on cosmetic surgery, so were all of these new patients coming in just for cosmetic stuff, not for cleanings, or were you doing   Dr. Bill: Well,   Joe: That also?   Dr. Bill: First of all, it wasn't cosmetic surgery, it was cosmetic dentistry,   Joe: Ok.   Dr. Bill: But as a cosmetic dentist, yeah, we do regular dentistry too and do   Joe: At.   Dr. Bill: Fillings and crowns and cleanings and everything else that you need to do to maintain your oral care. But the focus of my of my practice, the thing that really differentiates me from most dentists is the fact that I do, you know, cosmetic dentistry. And I have a very high profile clientele for that.   Joe: Yep, so that's my next question, you get right into it perfectly. How did you get   Dr. Bill: Ok.   Joe: Like with any entrepreneur? Obviously, if you provide a really great service, you're going to get talked about right. And automatically you're going to get known. And like for my business, I have an entertainment booking agency here in Scottsdale and Phoenix. Somebody writes to me, calls me. They have an answer. Within an hour or so, I'm known for my response time. And then the product I deliver is a very high product with you. How did you get that first step into a clientele that you now have?   Dr. Bill: So there's a few things. First of all, you said something, you said you automatically get no wrong. You don't automatically   Joe: No,   Dr. Bill: Get   Joe: You   Dr. Bill: No.   Joe: Do it yourself, you write.   Dr. Bill: You know, it takes work,   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: You know, I was really fortunate early on in my career, there's a woman that I went to high school with as very close. But if you came in and needed a lot of dental work and said, hey, do you want to barter what I got, even though the barter was   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: I was so naive when it came to business. And then I said, well, what do you do? She goes, I'm a publicist. I'm like, I don't need one of those. She goes, Yeah, you do. I'm like, I don't even know what one was. So I don't leap of faith. I thought, OK, fine, we'll barter and we'll do it. She was genius. I mean, she got me in magazines, journals. She got me listed as the best dentist in L.A. in L.A. magazine, which was huge that, you know, she she was friends with the editor. She got the whole editorial staff to come in and be my patient. They loved their experience. And so they ranted and raved about my practice. And those things started building up my practice. And, you know, I can get more into the whole PR thing, but that was really a big mindshift for me. I never thought as a dentist I would have like a publicist. I mean, and the crazy thing is today I'm probably the best known dentist in the world. Go figure.   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: Right. But a lot of things happen. And, you know, I always tell kids when they come to leak, if there's only two concepts that you walk away from from this whole program, these are the two that I think are most important. Number one, don't wait for opportunities in life. Make them, you know, I mean, if I meet another millennial who's sitting there waiting for the universe to do something, I want to scream and pull my hair out. Like the universe doesn't care about you at all. You need to care about you. And number two, when you get an opportunity in life, don't take it. M. it. There's a big difference   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: When ABC put me on Extreme Makeover dentistry, great TV, not so good. You know, if I watch the first two episodes of that show, I literally stunk like they should have fired me. But at least I was smart enough to know how bad I was. So instead of waiting to get fired, I was proactive. I took acting classes, hosting classes, teleprompter in class. I hired the woman who worked with all the kids on American Idol to sit down with me and teach me how to do what we're doing right now. To interview, to talk. I mean, this was not natural for me. It wasn't at all. But, you know, if you practice and you practice and you practice, you get better at things. And there's a big misconception. We always think practice makes what?   Joe: Perfect.   Dr. Bill: Ron.   Joe: Right.   Dr. Bill: Practice makes permanent.   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: So with your practicing in, you're not getting the results you want, don't keep doing that, get a mentor, get a coach, hire somebody and learn how to do it right, because you need to practice it the right way. Right. To make it perfect. And   Joe: So.   Dr. Bill: So there was a lot of learning for me. But, you know, at the end of the day, it paid off.   Joe: Then would your grandmother say you look thin? Is that what she said? She looks.   Dr. Bill: The first time I was on TV, I said, Grandpa, this is a woman who never said anything bad to anybody. I said, Gramps, did you see me on TV? She goes, Of course I did. I said, What do you think? She says? You look very   Joe: If   Dr. Bill: Skinny.   Joe: It's.   Dr. Bill: I'm like, But what do you think about what I did? She goes, I'm telling you, you were skinny.   Joe: I want to talk a lot about Lee, because even though you said, like, the universe doesn't care, I I also believe and I'm a big Dave Meltzer fan and he's sort of my mentor at this point that we get in our own way. And so there is abundance out there. And if we get out of the way and we just know what we want and we ask for it and we act accordingly, things come. So this connection with you means a lot to me because of Lee. Before we get to that, do you want to talk a little bit about your own podcast? Just because the lead part of it for me is huge and I really want to concentrate on that until our time runs out, so.   Dr. Bill: Well, I mean, the know the way that my podcast ties in the league is, Leape is a motivational leadership program for high school and college students that we do every summer. And it's always been at UCLA Live. Obviously, last year it was virtual. This year, I think we'll have probably one hundred students live and maybe ten thousand virtual.   Joe: Oh,   Dr. Bill: But   Joe: My gosh.   Dr. Bill: It's been amazing. And if any of your listeners have kids or no kids, fifteen to twenty five will be July 18th to the twenty fourth. They could get more information at w w w dot leap foundation dot com. We've had amazing speakers Paula Abdul, Mark Wahlberg, Anthony Hopkins, Kathy Bates, Michael Strahan, Usher, Apollo Ohno, Jason Alexander. I mean, I could go on and on and on. And these people come, they speak to these kids and they they give them their pearls. They give them their words of wisdom to help these kids become successful. And it's it's an amazing program. And, you know, I was always fearful that people would look at is like one and done like we have them for a week. But by putting out content continuously, we're able to stay in touch with the kids and we have the students stay in touch with each other. And so because I've been able to interview all these amazing people, I started this podcast. It's called Meet the Mentor. And every week I. I interview another person. A big part of Leape is mentorship. The program culminates on Friday with a mentor workshop where I bring in doctors and lawyers and firefighters and writers and actors and actresses, you name it, and the kids get an opportunity to sit and talk to these people one on one and ask them about their careers. And it's so valuable. And it's it's literally the highlight of the week for these students. So I continue that throughout the year by doing this. Meet the Mentor podcast. How is it done? Crazy. I mean, we're number one in Yemen. We're number two in Iceland, number three in Finland. And I think I'm ninety fourth in the category of forty seven thousand of these podcast in the US. And it's it's it's been phenomenal. And the purpose is twofold. One, to keep students engaged and keep, you know, exposing them to different mentors and to to expose parents and friends and family to lead. And hopefully they'll send their kids to the program.   Joe: So how did this come about? What was the light bulb that went off for you to say? This really speaks to me. I mean, I can imagine you are with all the things that you've done, your super busy, and then then all of a sudden have this light bulb go off and say, this is how this is. I want to give back and this is how I want to do it.   Dr. Bill: You know, I've always been very philanthropic and it's funny because I had this common theme in my life where every time I've committed to do something purely for philanthropy, it's ended up becoming incredibly successful for me on a monetary basis with literally no hidden agenda. And I can give you an example after example after example. The first one being discussed, you know, I was working at at the sports club L.A., which is now an equinox. And a woman came up to me named Cynthia Hearn, who I didn't know and said, would you like to help raise money for children's cancer research? Well, I wasn't wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but how can you say no to that? Right.   Joe: Absolutely.   Dr. Bill: So I said, sure. You know, she said, you are a dentist. I said, yes. And she goes, and you're single, right? I'm like, Yeah, but this is weird. She goes, Well, we're doing a bachelor auction and   Joe: Oh,   Dr. Bill: We need 10 bachelors that we can auction off to a thousand women for this charity,   Joe: Oh.   Dr. Bill: To be honest with you. That was stupid and humiliating. But out of that, I met Robert Hamit Robert Heyman with the other bats are standing in line beside me. By the way, Robert was over last night. We had dinner. We became instant. Best friends were brothers.   Joe: A   Dr. Bill: And   Joe: Simple.   Dr. Bill: Robert and I started discus dental and we literally brewed that company zero to one point three billion dollars. And along the way we've raised over forty five million dollars for children's charities. I mean, a lot of really cool things. But I was exposed to lead through another program that was very much like it was a precursor to lead. And that program was a program for students where they brought mentors in and they asked me to come as a mentor. And unfortunately, the founder of that program passed away. And when you did, I thought, you know, I can make this a nonprofit and keep it going so that that's how I actually got introduced to Lee.   Joe: Wow, that's really interesting. So when did this start? By the way?   Dr. Bill: So LEEP has been going this summer would have been our 13th, so the fourth theme fleet will come up this summer, but I've been doing the program prior to leave for probably 10 to 15 years before I started.   Joe: That's incredible. And when they go out to you said it's on the UCLA campus and where are they staying in dorms, if they.   Dr. Bill: Right, so students come from all over the world. We get kids from Australia, from New Zealand, from Europe and Asia and Africa, you name it, it's like a mini UN. It's really fun. And we get about five hundred kids. They all live in the dorms and we put on, you know, I think the best program of its type in the world. And a lot of the success of the program is the community. I mean, I get amazing speakers and they don't charge us. I mean, you couldn't afford to pay, you know, Anthony Hopkins, Mark Wahlberg. I think we'll get Katy Perry this year. I mean, I we couldn't pay, but when I when I talk to him about the program and they see how much passion we put into this, they say, I'll do it, doc, I'll do it. And now with Zoom, it makes everything so much easier because they don't even have to show up prior to the pandemic. If I had told kids. Oh yeah. Mark Wahlberg told Zoom in maybe like and   Joe: Yeah.   Dr. Bill: Now it's like it doesn't it's like live or Zoom. They're happy to see him.   Joe: That's incredible. It's just really the reason this speaks to me is because I feel like in the world that we're in and I'm I just turned fifty nine in February. So next year is a big year for me. And I think about all the time and I don't want to say it was wasted or regret or anything, but I think about that we end up trying to repair ourselves as adults on things that might not have happened. You had your life a little different. You knew exactly what you wanted to do. You followed your path that you're wired differently, your DNA, and you were able to just literally do all of these things. And I'm sure you've had your struggles. So I'm not I'm not painting this picture of, you know, none of that. But it would be so nice to get to these young minds early and explain that the world literally is your oyster. And you need to follow your. And sometimes I don't know. Right. So you say follow your heart. Sometimes they're confused about it. But I love the fact that you're getting to these young minds earlier and you're helping them to understand things sooner. And that's why this program speaks to me so much. I think it's incredible.   Dr. Bill: Well, I'll tell you what I have found empirically to be one of the most important factors in all of this. When I sit back and I say, you know, what am I most thankful for, you know, from my parents now, they never bought me a car. They never gave me money. But you know what? They did give me confidence. And confidence is currency, if you are a parent, the greatest, greatest gift that you can give your kids is confidence. And the very first thing we do, at least when a kid walks in that door and I open the program, I say to them, hey, when you woke up this morning, whether you think you did this or not, you put a number on your forehead once the lowest 10, Zayat said. How many of you did not put a 10 on your head? They raised their hand. I said, Who picked the number? You did have to take a test. No, did have to do anything. No, I said wipe it off and put a 10 on that. I said, from now on, I want you to walk like a ten top like a 10, act like a ten. But most importantly, surround yourself with other kids who are tense because you're trying to be a 10 and everybody around you use it to guess what, you become a two. So we give the kids these pop soccer   Joe: It's also.   Dr. Bill: Support on their phone ten. And you might hear something super crazy. Joe, we sold discus dental on ten, ten,   Joe: Oh,   Dr. Bill: Ten   Joe: Well.   Dr. Bill: At 10 a.m. to Philipps.   Joe: That's crazy.   Dr. Bill: I think about October 10th, 2010, at nine a.m., the merger documents came on like this is you can't write this stuff. I'm waiting till exactly ten o'clock so that when I go to sleep in 2011, I could tell the kids what a perfect ten day looks like. And we I signed that paper and, you know. It was an emotional moment for me. I always knew as against. I'd be comfortable, I had no idea. That I had the ability. To make the kind of money I made when we sold my company, that was like funny money to me, I didn't even think something like that could happen. I didn't grow up that way, you know? And, you know, and I thank my lucky stars every day for for meeting Robert Haymond, for participating in that charity auction, for, I mean, all the things that led up to that. Because I wouldn't I mean, you should see where I'm sitting right now. I'm I'm on the 30th floor of this beautiful condominium in in Century City. I wake up every morning the happiest guy I know. And so, so grateful for everything. It's it's really it's really been amazing.   Joe: Well, you know what? Good for you. Well deserved. I can just tell by I do a little bit of research up front for these. I want them to be somewhat spontaneous. But I when I went and looked at what I felt, I wanted to figure out more about who you are. I can tell I can tell from just how you look at the kids that are part of the program. I watched one of your talks to them, and I can tell it really it's super important to you and and your generous and loving and giving back. And it just it's very, very cool. And I appreciate you.   Dr. Bill: Well, I think my my my mantra is. Learn so you can earn and then return. And I feel if you can really accomplish those three things, you'll have a lot of happiness and and self satisfaction in life. So that's really what I focus on.   Joe: I agree. Well, I literally could talk with you forever. This is amazing. I'm honored that you came on my podcast. What is the best way for someone to get my guests in touch with you in regards to what do you prefer? And also, the lead program has   Dr. Bill: Yeah,   Joe: The best.   Dr. Bill: I mean, believe it or not, I'm the only person I know with probably a million followers who actually answered all of their demands. So Instagram, I don't do tick tock or even Facebook, but if you really want to reach me, it's super easy. It's Dr. Bill Dorfman, D.R Bilel Dorfmann on Instagram. I promise. I answer one hundred percent of my DBMS. If if you're interested in the program, please go to Sleep Foundation dot com. You can sign your kids up right now. And yeah, I think that's.   Joe: Well, thank you so much, I appreciate it. I look forward to to seeing more about what happens with LEEP, and I definitely want to stay in contact with you. And I wish you all the best.   Dr. Bill: Well, thank you.

Bill: Well Sean, I'm going to Boston with you. You know The Guy Who Manages The Red Sox, the Red Sox's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team. Sean: Look Bill, if you're the coach, you must know all the players. Bill: I certainly do. Sean: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team. Bill: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names. Sean: You mean funny names? Bill: Strange names, pet names...like Dizzy Dean... Sean: His brother Daffy. Bill: Daffy Dean... Sean: And their French cousin. Bill: French? Sean: Goofé. Bill: Goofé Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third... Sean: That's what I want to find out. Bill: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third. Sean: Are you the manager? Bill: Yes. Sean: You gonna be the coach too? Bill: Yes. Sean: And you don't know the fellows' names? Bill: Well I should. Sean: Well then who's on first? Bill: Yes. Sean: I mean the fellow's name. Bill: Who. Sean: The guy on first. Bill: Who. Sean: The first baseman. Bill: Who. Sean: The guy playing... Bill: Who is on first! Sean: I'm asking YOU who's on first. Bill: That's the man's name. Sean: That's who's name? Bill: Yes. Sean: Well go ahead and tell me. Bill: That's it. Sean: That's who? Bill: Yes. PAUSE Sean: Look, you gotta first baseman? Bill: Certainly. Sean: Who's playing first? Bill: That's right. Sean: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money? Bill: Every dollar of it. Sean: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base. Bill: Who. Sean: The guy that gets... Bill: That's it. Sean: Who gets the money... Bill: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it. Sean: Who's wife? Bill: Yes. PAUSE Bill: What's wrong with that? Sean: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name? Bill: Who. Sean: The guy. Bill: Who. Sean: How does he sign... Bill: That's how he signs it. Sean: Who? Bill: Yes. PAUSE Sean: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base. Bill: No. What is on second base. Sean: I'm not asking you who's on second. Bill: Who's on first. Sean: One base at a time! Bill: Well, don't change the players around. Sean: I'm not changing nobody! Bill: Take it easy, buddy. Sean: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base? Bill: That's right. Sean: Ok. Bill: All right. PAUSE Sean: What's the guy's name on first base? Bill: No. What is on second. Sean: I'm not asking you who's on second. Bill: Who's on first. Sean: I don't know. Bill: He's on third, we're not talking about him. Sean: Now how did I get on third base? Bill: Why you mentioned his name. Sean: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third? Bill: No. Who's playing first. Sean: What's on first? Bill: What's on second. Sean: I don't know. Bill: He's on third. Sean: There I go, back on third again! PAUSE Sean: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it. Bill: All right, what do you want to know? Sean: Now who's playing third base? Bill: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base? Sean: What am I putting on third. Bill: No. What is on second. Sean: You don't want who on second? Bill: Who is on first. Sean: I don't know. Bill & Sean Together:Third base! PAUSE Sean: Look, you gotta outfield? Bill: Sure. Sean: The left fielder's name? Bill: Why. Sean: I just thought I'd ask you. Bill: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya. Sean: Then tell me who's playing left field. Bill: Who's playing first. Sean: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field? Bill: No, What is on second. Sean: I'm not asking you who's on second. Bill: Who's on first! Sean: I don't know. Bill & Sean Together: Third base! PAUSE Sean: The left fielder's name? Bill: Why. Sean: Because! Bill: Oh, he's centerfield. PAUSE Sean: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team? Bill: Sure. Sean: The pitcher's name? Bill: Tomorrow. Sean: You don't want to tell me today? Bill: I'm telling you now. Sean: Then go ahead. Bill: Tomorrow! Sean: What time? Bill: What time what? Sean: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching? Bill: Now listen. Who is not pitching. Sean: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name? Bill: What's on second. Sean: I don't know. Bill & Sean Together: Third base! PAUSE Sean: Gotta a catcher? Bill: Certainly. Sean: The catcher's name? Bill: Today. Sean: Today, and tomorrow's pitching. Bill: Now you've got it. Sean: All we got is a couple of days on the team. PAUSE Sean: You know I'm a catcher too. Bill: So they tell me. Sean: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who? Bill: Now that's the first thing you've said right. Sean: I don't even know what I'm talking about! PAUSE Bill: That's all you have to do. Sean: Is to throw the ball to first base. Bill: Yes! Sean: Now who's got it? Bill: Naturally. PAUSE Sean: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it? Bill: Naturally. Sean: Who? Bill: Naturally. Sean: Naturally? Bill: Naturally. Sean: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally. Bill: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who. Sean: Naturally. Bill: That's different. Sean: That's what I said. Bill: You're not saying it... Sean: I throw the ball to Naturally. Bill: You throw it to Who. Sean: Naturally. Bill: That's it. Sean: That's what I said! Bill: You ask me. Sean: I throw the ball to who? Bill: Naturally. Sean: Now you ask me. Bill: You throw the ball to Who? Sean: Naturally. Bill: That's it. Sean: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don't Know. I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know! He's on third and I don't give a darn! Bill: What? Sean: I said I don't give a darn! Bill: Oh, that's our shortstop.

Posters have been placed on lamposts in-and-around the area which saw widespread violence and property damaged at rioters' hands in Bristol at the weekend. During the riot, which started outside of Bridewell Police Station in Bristol, 22 police officers were injured - two of them seriously. One of the seriously injured officers suffered a punctured lung whilst the other was admitted to hospital with multiple broken bones. Several emergency response police vehicles were also set alight and a police building damaged. This episode is also available as a blog post: https://emergency-services.news/exclusive-kill-the-bill-well-done-nice-work-posters-spotted-around-bristol-riot-site/

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Lessons LearnedDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                Throughout his life and his ministry, Dr. Bill Bright has had a single focus – The Great Commission – that Christ would send us into all the world to preach the Gospel to all men.  Here is Dr. Bill Bright. Bill:                  The average Christian does not realize that his loved ones, neighbors, and friends, are going to hell.  Now you say – would a loving God send people to hell?  No – God has put a cross at the entrance of hell, and the only way anybody can go to hell is to reject God's love and God's forgiveness. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 19th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today we talk with the man who has made The Great Commission his life's objective, Dr. Bill Bright.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  It was not long ago that you and I had the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with a Christian leader and, frankly, two years ago if you had said we would have had that opportunity in the fall of 2002, I would have said it won't happen, because the Christian leader, in this particular case, Dr. Bill Bright – well, everyone thought that he would not live much longer. Dennis:          Right, and there were a number of us who wrote Bill letters, tributes; we made phone calls.  I still remember a great conversation I had with him that I thought would be my last, and he asked me to speak at an event, and I thought, "You rascal, you've done it again.  You've gotten one more thing out of me.  You're not even going to be here then," but Bill Bright is a great man.  His life is not over.  He is showing us how to finish strong, all the way to the end. He only has about 40 percent of his lung capacity due to the disease that he has, but he's writing books, he's doing interviews, he's taking a limited number of speaking engagements and, Bob, I came to you a few months ago, and I said, "It's time we went to Orlando and sat in Bill Bright's living room and talked with him again.  He's now lived for a couple of years longer than either you or I thought he would.  Let's go find out what he's learned." Bob:                And that conversation that we had in his living room in Orlando was just a relaxed conversation where we peppered him on a variety of subjects, but it was so refreshing. Dennis:          Yeah, and it was really a sweet time.  For those who don't know who Bill Bright is, and there are some who perhaps don't – Bill is the founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ.  He is the author of the "Four Spiritual Laws", which has – I suppose there are billions of "Four Spiritual Laws" that have been reproduced around the world – people sharing their faith.  Bill has been used mightily by God to touch the world, to touch nations, but he also was used mightily in my own life and yours, too, Bob, and I think by the time our listeners listen to this interview, along with the next couple of days, Bill Bright will touch you deeply as well.  Let's listen to Dr. Bill Bright. Bob:                You've talked about being on your way to the grave.  You know, there are some who are surprised that we're even having this conversation today, because there was a time just a few years ago I remember hearing you and Brant Gustafson together talking about being ready for heaven and, of course, Brant is there, you're here.  How have you processed all of that over the last several years? Bill:                  Well, just before Easter a year ago, I came home from California to die.  I said to Vonette that I was choking and fainting and all the first signs of what they told me what happened at Mayo's and the Jewish Institute in Denver and my local doctor –"What you have is horrible."  He tried to get my attention, and when I received word I was dying, I said, "Praise the Lord," because, you know, you can't lose with a believer.  It's win-win.  If you die, you go to heaven; if you stay here, you keep on serving Him.  So I had begun to praise the Lord.  He thought I'd lost my sanity, and he said – then he really began to rebuke me – he said, "You have a horrible disease.  You're going to die the most horrible kind of death" – he's a heart specialist and been my doctor for 30 years – and he felt he could tell me that.  Most doctors wouldn't.  And he said, "It's worse than cancer, it's worse than heart trouble, you're just going to choke to death."                         And so I was choking, and I came home to die.  So when I got off the plane, a couple – Jack and Pearl Galpin [sp] had befriended this Russian doctor, and they insisted that she come and examine me.  Now, here's a Ph.D, a research scientist, seven years in charge at Chernobyl, and she had no place to live except the home of the Galpins, who befriended her.  So she came to live in our home, treated me three times a day, and by the end of the 30 days, I began to have new life, and I'm awed at how good I feel. Dennis:          You know, there's a story I want to just tell real quickly, because I want our listeners to know this – there's a real sense in which God used a Russian doctor in your life to keep you alive, and that really can be, I think, tied back to something you did years ago with your retirement savings.  You actually – you and Vonette – actually gave away your retirement to start an outreach in Moscow when the Iron Curtain dropped.  You gave away your retirement, and now here, at the end of your life, what does God use to bless you back, but a Russian whose country had benefited from your sacrificial act of giving, and I think, you know, that's the kind of thing that God in heaven, I think, must have a big grin about.                         He goes, "Bill Bright, you are a termite," you know, "Dennis Rainey, you are, too, but I'm going to show you what I want to do." Bill:                  Oh, He's awesome. Dennis:          I'm going to use somebody from that country to bless you. Bill:                  You know, it's interesting – Vonette and I were led by the Lord to give my retirement pension to build a New Life Training Center at Moscow State University, and one day I'm sitting in the tent 15 years later, recuperating and enjoying the Lord as we're chatting together, and it is as though the Lord said to me in a way that – no question about it – "I sent Dr. Ivanova to help you because you made the widow's mite investment in Moscow State University."                          Now, I began to sob.  I was overcome, because, frankly, there was no question what he was saying to me – that he was pleased by that.  I didn't do it for credit, I didn't make a big issue of it, and I wouldn't have brought it up if you hadn't, but you cannot outgive God, and though, as a movement, we had spent tens of millions of dollars sending Jesus films and Bibles and holding teacher convocations all over Russia and the other republics, but the Lord didn't seem to refer to that.  He referred to what I did first, and that was awesome. Dennis:          You undoubtedly have envisioned where you're going. Bill:                  Oh, heaven is awesome.   Dennis:          To your best extent – obviously, you've never been there – but you've read about it, you know the One Who resides there, you've been walking with the One Who resides there – share what you expect? Bill:                  Eyes not seen, ears not heard what God has prepared for those who love Him.  Heaven is going to be indescribably beautiful – it's not going to be, it is – and I remember as a lad, my precious, saintly mother would often say, "I can hardly wait to go to heaven."  Now, she loved her husband, my father.  She loved seven children.  She was the pillar of the community.  If anybody needed any help, they would always come to my mother.  She was truly a saint.  But I didn't understand what she was saying until I became a believer and now I look forward, with her, with great anticipation, to heaven.  Everything we experience here on earth – all the most elegant and opulent kinds of experiences – cannot compare with what awaits those who believe.                           Here's my logic – the God who spoke – and astronomers say at least 100 billion, 200 billion galaxies were flowing into space, and He holds it all together with the word of His command.  The same God became a man – the God-man, Jesus of Nazareth, died on the cross for our sins, was raised from the dead, and now lives within us, and He said, "I'm going to go to prepare a place for you, and then I'll come back and get you."                         Now, this God who created all this unbelievably beautiful, wonderful universe, you know is going to do a special creative job in preparing heaven.  Heaven is going to be the golden, golden gem of the universe, and whatever our minds can conceive of will fall infinitely short of what heaven is like. Bob:                Were you disappointed when you started getting better? Bill:                  Well, I must tell you, I was excited about going to heaven.  You know, when you heard the interview with Brant Gustafson and myself, we were on a race.  We both were looking forward to going, and we weren't sure – we were saying, "I'll beat you there." Dennis:          Yeah, well, he beat you, didn't he? Bill:                  Yeah, he did – and dear, dear Brant – he was a marvelous, wonderful friend … Dennis:          … yeah, I love him, too. Bill:                  A beloved brother – but here I am doing, in a sense, the most creative thing I've ever done.  In the last 18 months I've put almost 100 hours of the best of my 100 books and booklets on blue screen technology – video – where I can use it for interactive training of millions of people through the years long after I'm with the Lord, and Andrew Murray has been dead 150 years, is still influencing millions of Christians.  Oswald Chambers has been dead over 100 years, is still influencing even the President of the United States.  So here we are, I'm building up a library of books and videos, and I've been able to do that more since I learned I'm dying than any other period in my life.  And then God led a man by the name of James Davis and me to start, as a part of the Crusade ministry, Global Pastures Network, where our goal is to help start 5 million house churches in the next 10 years, and we're working with all major denominations.  We're working with scores of para-church groups, and it's not just a Campus Crusade for Christ project, though it's directed by Crusade under the leadership of Dr. Steve Douglas, but it's a partnership where the leaders of Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, Presbyterians, and Methodists and many other groups – over 70 denominations and scores of para-church groups are involved. So when I look back over what's happened in the last 18 months, I would have to say I'm glad the Lord let me stay here, and I don't want to stay one second longer than He wants me here. Dennis:          You haven't retired? Bill:                  (laughs) No – I've re-fired. Dennis:          You have re-fired.  What are your dreams if the Lord gives you another 18 months? Bill:                  Well, I would just want to see everything I'm now doing increased, expanded, developed.  But there's one very important thing that is really on my heart in addition to the others, and that is to call America back to the Bible and back to the God of the Bible.  I mentioned that Brad, our son, has written this book, "God is the Issue."  I've written a book on the attributes of God, " God Discovers Character," and "The Year of the Bible.  So we're working on a strategy to take those three – "God is the Issue," "The Year of the Bible," and "God Discovers Character," and do an evangelistic thrust in every community of America, and I can't think of any better way to announce it than your radio program, because, you see, if we get back to the God of the Bible, revival comes.                          And, you know I've fasted and prayed 40 days each year for the last nine years for revival for America, the world, and The Great Commission to be fulfilled.  So I am believing that God is going to raise up the kind of leaders that are necessary in every community of America to make this happen.   Dennis:          Bill, you described heaven as a place you long to go for.  Your face lit up.  I want you to do something you may have never been asked to do – how would you describe hell? Bill:                  Oh, oh, oh – I've just written a book, "Heaven or Hell:  The Ultimate Choice," and hell is an awesome, horrible, indescribably cruel, terrible place, and the average Christian does not realize that his loved ones, neighbors, and friends, are going to hell, and because he doesn't realize there is a hell that is so horrible there are no human words to describe it – this agony for all eternity.  Now you say "Would a loving God send people to hell?"  No.  God has put a cross at the entrance of hell, and the only way anybody can go to hell is to reject God's love and God's forgiveness.  Christ died for all people – Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, everybody – and He's not willing that any should perish.                         Peter writes, "God has delayed His return in order that more people might have a chance to receive Christ."  So God is not being unfair, but He is a just God, He's a holy God, a righteous God, and if we insist on violating His laws and disobeying Him, we are choosing to follow the kingdom of darkness – Satan – and I'm sobered by this.  Hell is a terrible place.  Heaven is an incredibly beautiful place, and as we read in Colossians 1:13 and 14, God has liberated us out of the darkness and gloom of Satan's kingdom and brought us into the kingdom of His dear Son Who bought our freedom with His blood and forgave us all our sins.                         To everyone who is listening to me, take serious what I'm saying and what Dennis and Bob are saying – there are only two kingdoms in this world – Christ's kingdom and Satan's kingdom – and you and your loved ones are a member of either one of those, and you can't be a member of them both, and if you are playing footsies with the ways of the world and being enamored with the things of the world, you are being deceived by the enemy of your soul.  God prepared hell for Satan and his angels, not for you and me.  But if we insist on following Satan, we will go to hell where he is.  I just want to stand on the street corners and say, "Stop, stop, listen to me, you're on your way to heaven or hell, and there aren't any alternatives.  You're a member of one of two kingdoms – there aren't any other kingdoms," and we need to proclaim that. Dennis:          And to that person, Bill, right now, who is listening, who is going, "I don't want to go there.  I don't want to go to a place of spiritual torment, of emotional grief and of judgment.  I want out of that kingdom.  I want to make sure I'm in God's kingdom – a place of peace, a place of beauty, a place of knowing God, seeing Him, and experiencing His love face-to-face."  What should that person do right now? Bill:                  I'd like to ask everyone who has that desire to pray with me.  I'd like to lead them in prayer. Dennis:          That's good. Bill:                  Just, phrase-by-phrase, you quote after me.  Now, Jesus promised us – before we pray – "If you hear My voice and open the door, I'll come in."  If He is speaking to you through this program or any other program, don't you hesitate for a moment.  You may never have another opportunity like this, because God's grace does not always continue.  There's a time when He says, "I will withdraw My blessing from you."  Now, I ask you, if you really want Jesus in your heart, pray this prayer with me, phrase-by-phrase.  Pray it aloud if you're in a position where you can do so – if not, silently – "Lord Jesus, I know You're the Son of God, I know You died on the cross for my sins.  Come into my life, forgive my sins, change my life, make me the kind of person You want me to be." God bless you.  Don't miss out on His plan for you.  He loves you.  He died for you.  He reaches out to embrace you.  Now don't turn Him away.  Follow Him to your last breath, and He will never fail you.  God bless you. Bob:                That, of course, is Dr. Bill Bright, who has shared those sentiments over the last 50 years over and over and over again – calling men and women to faith in Christ and then to service to their Master throughout their lifetime. Dennis:          That's right, and I have to turn to the audience right now and say to that woman who is listening, that man – if you do not know where you will spend eternity after hearing an 81-year-old man who is nearing the end of his life, give you an eternal perspective that there are two kingdoms – the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, of the devil, wouldn't you like to be sure you are headed toward the kingdom of God? It's a gift.  It's a gift that comes from God by His grace if we will yet receive it by faith in Him and His Word and basically Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.  We must receive Him.  We must trust Him.  We must ask Him to be our Savior, our Master, our Lord, and I would just challenge you, right now – if you've not made that discovery, if you do not know the Creator of the Universe and are not walking with Him, there is no better time than right now. Put aside excuses, lay aside that obstacle, that burden, that person in the church that has kept you from receiving Christ and come right now.  Just come to Him and kneel and ask Him – Lord Jesus be merciful to me, a sinner.  Come into my life, forgive my sins, be my Master, my Lord, and begin to make me who You created me to be.  Pray that prayer right now in faith, and I just want to remind you, it's not the words of your mouth, but it is the attitude of your heart of coming to God that I believe establishes a relationship with the Almighty God. Bob:                If you want to know about that relationship with God and want to know what it means to be in a right relationship with God, call us and ask about a book we'd like to send you called "Right With God."  It's a book that will explain to you how a man is made right with God and what it means to be a follower of Christ.  Ask for a copy of that book.  We'll send it at no cost to anyone who prayed along with Dennis, anyone who wants to give his life to Christ today.  Call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask about the book, "Right With God."                         Let me also mention that we have our entire visit with Dr. Bill Bright available on audiocassette or CD.  If you'd like to hear the entire conversation with Dr. Bright – we've had to edit it here for broadcast purposes – but you can hear the unedited dialog on cassette or on CD, and in our conversation with Dr. Bright, we had the opportunity to ask him about the books that he has written, and he said that his favorite of all of those books was a book called, "God: Discover His Character," a book about the attributes of our great God, and we have that book available as well.  If you would like to deepen your understanding and your knowledge of who God is, and I'll tell you, all of us can benefit from that exercise, get a copy of Dr. Bright's book.  Again, it's called "God:  Discover His Character," and you can ask for a copy when you call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.                         We always enjoy hearing from our listeners, Dennis.  We just recently heard from a number of our Legacy Partners, many of them writing to request prayer on a variety of subjects, and we do pray for you when you contact us and let us know what your needs are, and we appreciate those of you who are able to help with our financial needs as a ministry, either as a Legacy Partner or as a FamilyLife Champion.  If you would like to make a contribution to FamilyLife or if you'd like to contact us so that we can be praying for you, you can write to FamilyLife at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, write to FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  You can also donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call to make a donation at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to continue to hear excerpts from our recent dialogue with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Finish the RaceDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                There is a problem within the church today.  According to Dr. Bill Bright, there are a lot of people who say they love God when many of them don't really know Him. Bill:                  The average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know, you can't trust someone you don't know, you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover His character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, February 20th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today – a conversation with a man who has spent his life introducing people to their Creator.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You've been asked a number of times by people that question – if you could have dinner with any four people, living or dead, who would you invite to your dinner party and probably stopped and considered that question and thought about the Apostle Paul or about King David or whoever you might choose to be at your dinner party.                         I would imagine that there would be many listeners who, when asked that question, would have on their list, the opportunity to invite Bill and Vonette Bright to that dinner party and just to be able to interact with them about a life of faithfulness to Christ that God has honored in a remarkable way. Dennis:          You know, when I was a young man starting out right after college, I had no idea how Bill Bright's life would impact mine initially, from a distance.  But here in the last dozen or so years, I've had the opportunity to have many, many meals with Bill, to have personal time with him, and you and I had the opportunity to fly down to Orlando and sit in their living room and just have a sweet chat with an 81-year-old man who is suffering from a very serious illness … Bob:                … he's got a pulmonary fibrosis … Dennis:          … right – that has taken away 60 percent of his lungs' capacity, and, Bob, you and I both left those interviews, which we started on yesterday's broadcast, and if you missed it, I would encourage you to call and get the tapes and get the entire interview, because it's a great reminder from a man who has lived his life well, about what is really important.  And one of the things I wanted to ask him about and interview him about was the subject of money, because there's a lot of great stories about how Bill Bright personally has approached money and his own personal wealth, which he doesn't have a lot of personal wealth. Bob:                In spite of the fact that he has written a number of books and at one point was handed a check for $1 million. Dennis:          Right, he won the Templeton Award and gave that money immediately and invested it in Campus Crusade for Christ for the purpose of prayer and fasting. Bob:                In fact, I think he talks about that in the section of the interview we're going to hear today, because you did quiz him about the issue of wealth and how we handle our money and, in fact, that's where we'll pick things up today.  This is Part 2 of an interview done recently with the former president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright. Dennis:          You have rubbed shoulders with people who have had enormous wealth in your 81 years of life.  You've been a part of seeing people invest literally tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars in the kingdom work.  What advice would you have for the man, the couple, who really want to use their lives and their wealth for the glory of God? Bill:                  Well, first of all, wealth is a gift of God.  It all belongs to Him.  At best, we are stewards.  There is no one who could say, "Look, I've accumulated this vast fortune.  I did it with my own ability."  Everything is a gift, even the breath which we breathe, and I'm on oxygen 24 hours a day, so I appreciate breath as a gift of God.                           But anyone who thinks that they are responsible for their vast wealth is not thinking logically.  There are many, many factors that contribute to vast wealth, and so I say to men and women of wealth – live a good life.  Enjoy yourself, but you should not be extravagant and don't destroy your grandchildren by leaving them large sums of money.  Take care of sending them to college or whatever they may need but be sure you do not spoil your children and your grandchildren and future heirs by leaving a trust that will cause them to be lethargic, complacent, and never develop the skills which you've developed because you had to.                         Remember, it's all God's money, and you're going to be held accountable in a very real way when you get to heaven, if you make it, and if your money and your wealth and your material possessions are your god, you won't make it.   Bob:                Have you seen people leave money to children or grandchildren and that lethargic complacency that you're talking about – have you seen those who were destroyed by … Bill:                  … absolutely, absolutely.  I think of a tragic situation – a couple came to me one day.  They had worked hard together.  They had built a fortune.  They had one daughter, and she married an atheist who hated God, and they said, "What are we going to do with that money?"  I said, "Whatever you do, don't leave it to your daughter and your grandchildren, because he will use it for purposes that are contrary to everything you stand for.  Give it away while you're alive.  Take care of them in a modest way but don't give that money to your atheistic son-in-law," who wouldn't even allow his children to go to Sunday school.                         Well, their love for their children overruled that, and they left it to the family, and you can imagine what happened to it.  It was a tragic situation.  They'll be held accountable for this.  It's well known that people who inherit large sums of money in their youth generally are not properly motivated to maximize their gifts.  So they drift through life, living a life of ease, and they literally become parasites on society.  And, as you know, in parts of the world where there is the class of the super-rich, they're usually very decadent.  That's not always true but all too often extreme wealth clouds the thinking of the recipients of that wealth – bigger homes, bigger cars, a greater opulence and extravagance instead of "Lord, this is all yours.  How can we use it to bring greater glory, greater honor, and greater praise to You." Bob:                Does it seem to you that sometimes those who don't have any spiritual convictions are more generous and more inclined to give?  I'm thinking of Ted Turner giving millions of dollars to the United Nations or Bill Gates setting up a foundation for vaccinations around the world.  I sometimes wonder if we ought to take a lesson from some of these folks. Bill:                  Well, one should never question another's motives – why they give – but there are many tax benefits, many considerations, and I pray that those who God, whether they believe it or not, God uniquely blessed.  I think back on my own career as a businessman.  I started my business with a modest capital, and because of the influence of two men who were kind of like fathers to me – they had no sons of their own – and they were among the leaders in the whole confection industry.  They helped promote my merchandise – Bright's Brandied and Epicurean Foods – whenever people came to their businesses, and they were two of the top men in the nation.  They would promote my merchandise, because they liked me, and they liked my merchandise.                         I wasn't a believer, but at least one of the men, I know, was a believer.  The other one, I'm not sure of, but they helped me tremendously.  So, as a kid, in my early 20s, I was experiencing phenomenal success, and yet I can't say I was smart, I was brilliant, I did this, I did that – God arranges all these things, and I was able to succeed in the measure I did because of many factors.                         So anyone who is wealthy would have to say, if he thinks clearly, "I had a lot of help from God working through people," and I look back on my own business career; I have to say God orchestrated all these many wonderful things preparing me for the day when I'd be born into His family, and He could show me a whole new way of life. Dennis:          Bill, you're still highly motivated, even at 81 years of age.  You're on oxygen 24 hours a day; your lungs are only working at about 40 percent of capacity – what gets you out of bed in the morning? Bill:                  Well, my love for Jesus.  You know, people ask me "What's the most important thing we could pray for you?"  And I always respond, "Pray that I will never leave my first love."  Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and, of course, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies.  So my love for Him and my desire to please Him, to obey Him, He is my Master, my Lord, and I can't think of any activity in which I could be engaged that is more important than pleasing Him. And, of course, I say all that, including my precious wife.  She is the joy and delight of my heart.  We've been married over 54 years and all I can do is thank God at what an incredible, wonderful, fantastic wife He has given me – and lover and partner and friend in Vonette, and I encourage every man out there who wants to live a fruitful, wonderful life, to love your wife as Christ loved the church, even if you do it for selfish reasons, and you can't really do it for selfish reasons, because loving your wife has to be supernatural with His enabling, but if you don't have a happy wife, you're not going to have a happy heart.  And you need to give attention to your dear, beloved, precious spouse, who is a gift of God until death do us part, and don't ever think of divorce as a way out.  You find someone as God has led you to be married, or if He should lead you in the future to be married, remember, obey the Word of God; love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it – and sacrificial living. Dennis:          Bill, Bob and I – and I'm taking our average age together here, because Bob's about to correct me out of this, but we're approximately 30 years behind you in the race. Bob:                I'm a little farther behind than Dennis.  I'd just like to make that clear. Dennis:          And it's not that I'm that much older, Bill, than he is … Bill:                  … maybe a couple of days. Dennis:          Yeah, a couple of days, a couple of days older than Bob – certainly not more mature, though.  But what advice would you have for a man who wants to finish well?  I mean, if God grants strength and favor, Bob and I will live another 30 years.  What exhortation would you give us, as men, and just to men in terms of how they run the race and end up at the finish line like you are, still sprinting at the end? Bill:                  Well, you remember, Paul writes to Timothy – chapter 4, verses 7 and 8 – "I've fought a good fight, I've finished the race, and I've been faithful."  I would say the number-one priority – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that requires time in the Word.  You can't live a godly life unless you're taking God's Word in your daily moment by moment.  Communicate with God in prayer.  Prayer is like breathing.  We pray and talk to Him.  So love Him, trust Him, obey Him, and in order to all this, you have to know who He is. So if you have a superficial view of God, you need to begin to study the attributes of God.  That's the reason I wrote the book, "God:  Discover His Character," three or four years ago, because the average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know; you can't trust someone you don't know; you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover his character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                You see what Dennis has got in his hand there, don't you? Bill:                  I just happened to see that. Dennis:          I have a card that, Bill, you discovered the power of lamination before Bob did, but you laminated a card here that is entitled the name of your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  And on this card, on the front and back, are listed different attributes of God. Bill:                  Thirteen attributes. Dennis:          Thirteen attributes, and I'm not going to ask you to name all 13, although I'm confident you could do it. Bill:                  I memorized and meditate on them almost every day and night.  I wake up in the middle of the night and while I'm going back to sleep, I will run through different ones and just praise the Lord for who He is. Dennis:          Well, what I want you to do, and I was going to ask you this question, anyway, but you've taken me there – out of these 13 what three are the most meaningful? Bill:                  They're all important.  I can't … Dennis:          … I know they're all important, and I knew you were going to say that, but as you have meditated and have gotten to know God, and as He has revealed Himself to you, could you name three that are closest to you in your walk. Bill:                  I wouldn't say three are more important than the rest, but God is sovereign.  He rules in the affairs of men and nations.  He controls everything.  We think we're smart, and we're really dummies compared to Him.  After all, look at – study the human eyeball or the corpuscle, or anything about any of His creation, and you realize we're just dummies.  So He is sovereign.  He lifts up, and He puts down.  And then He is love. Dennis:          I'm going to stop you there, because I want to read what you wrote on the card – "Because God is sovereign, that's who He is, I will joyfully submit to His will." Bill:                  Yes. Dennis:          So it's more than just an intellectual realization that there is One who rules absolutely. Bill:                  I put the word "joyfully" in there especially, because it's not just kind of a duty.  God is sovereign, so I'm going to be – I'm just going to resign myself to the fact that He is in charge, and it's going to be a boring drudgery.  No, God is in charge, and it's a joyful journey to know that He's in charge.  If I didn't know He was in charge, now I'm breathing on oxygen for the last couple of years – I would probably be kind of anxious at times.  But God is in charge.  Nothing happened.  You know, you read Acts 4 – "Nothing happens to you and me that is not with His approval."  Satan has no power over us except that which God allows.  Everything is filtered through His love.                          You have cancer, you have a heart attack, you have a stroke, you have financial problems – what do you do about it?  Well, Paul writes, "Rejoice."  James writes, "Rejoice.  In all things give thanks."  Well, you know, one of the greatest lessons I've ever learned, which I learned maybe 40 years or so ago is that all things – give thanks.  Rejoice in adversity as well as blessings. Dennis:          And you can do that because you know there is One. Bill:                  I know there is a sovereign God.  He rules in the affairs, and when I say thank you, even through my tears I'm demonstrating faith, and the scripture says without faith it's impossible to please God.  That which is not of faith is sin.  The judged shall live by faith.  So I'm saying, when I praise God that I'm wearing this tube, breathing oxygen, I'm praising God out of a joyful heart not out of resignation, and then, of course, the love – God's love for me is unconditional.  Because God is love, he is unconditionally committed to my well-being and, you know, you could spend an hour talking about the love of God.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, no matter how even we sin and grieve Him, His love reaches out to us.                         Which brings me to the third attribute, and I hate to leave out any of those 13, and, of course, there are many others – is mercy – because of His mercy.  If I confess my sins, He is always faithful and just to forgive me of my sins, because of His mercy. Dennis:          Right.  Bill, you mentioned your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  I've lost count of how many books you've written … Bill:                  … about a hundred … Dennis:          … you're writing them faster than I can read them.  It's over 100 books? Bill:                  Over 100 books and booklets. Dennis:          Okay. Bill:                  And thousands of articles. Dennis:          Bob gets onto me for asking these questions, but I'm going to ask you – do you have a favorite? Bill:                  I would say probably the best book I've ever written is "God:  Discover His Character," because it deals with the attributes of God, and you – you know, I've written on the Ten Commandment, living supernaturally in Christ … Dennis:          … you've written about the person of Jesus Christ … Bill:                  … the person of Jesus, prayer, on and on and on, but getting to know God, His marvelous attributes, you realize everything else falls into place. Bob:                Well, again, today we've been listening to Dr. Bill Bright, founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ rehearsing the attributes of God, which is a healthy exercise for all of us all the time, isn't it? Dennis:          It is, and if there's anything I've learned from Bill Bright is that we need to not only talk about God and what He's doing in our lives, but we need to know Him, and we need to continue to pursue Him to get to know Him and a part of that comes, Bob, as we understand the qualities that we use as human beings to describe little facets of God's character, and I do think, and I agree with Bill, this is the greatest book, this book on the character of God that Bill Bright wrote.  This is his greatest book he's ever written. Bob:                The book is called, "God:  Discover His Character," and we have it available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  This is a book that is great for private devotions, it's a book that parents can use in family time with the children to help introduce the children to the greatness of our God.  If you'd like to get a copy, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.  Again, the title is "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright.                         When you get in touch with us, you may also want to request either cassettes or CDs of our complete interview with Dr. Bill Bright.  We have only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today, but if you'd like to hear the entire conversation, you can ask about those tapes or about CD copies of the interviews when you contact us again, at 1-800-FLTODAY or, if you'd like to, you can order online at FamilyLife.com.                         I was thinking about Dr. Bright's book, and I was thinking about our mission at FamilyLife to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time.  If we're going to succeed in that mission of developing godly families, then we have to make sure that our families know the God we want to reflect in our own character and in our own lives, and FamilyLife is committed to that spiritual agenda. We want husbands and wives and moms and dads to be centered on the priority of God's Word in your marriage and in your family.  We are joined in that agenda by a whole lot of folks around the country who are FamilyLife Champions or Legacy Partners – in fact, some brand-new Legacy Partners who just joined with us here in the last few weeks, and it's nice to have you folks on board with us.  A Legacy Partner is somebody who, on a monthly basis, makes a contribution to our ministry. We often will hear from those Legacy Partners, Dennis, who write to us and ask us to pray for them.  In fact, I just saw that we've gotten a note from a 69-year-old grandmother in South Dakota who is raising two boys – she's raising a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old, and I don't know the circumstances that have her raising those young men, but she said, "Please pray for me.  I need strength and patience."  And we do take those requests for prayer seriously, and our team joins in praying for folks who write to us with those kinds of requests. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner and joining with us financially or if you'd like to write to us with a prayer request, our mailing address is FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.  You can also get in touch with us by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can donate over the phone or you can make an online donation at our website at FamilyLife.com. Well, tomorrow we will hear the concluding portion of our conversation held recently with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Final ExhortationsDay 3 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright   Bob:                Dr. Bill Bright has a message for Christians today, and it's a simple, basic message. Bill:                  I would say to all believers – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  Seek first His kingdom, obey His commandments, trust His promises, and spend the rest of your life getting to know Him so you can love Him and trust Him and obey Him without any hesitancy. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, February 21st.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today a conversation with a man whose life is centered in The Great Commission and The Great Commandment.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  For the last couple of days we've been listening back to an interview that was conducted recently with the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright.  I don't know if you've ever wondered this – but have you ever asked yourself what would have happened to Bill Bright if he'd never been converted, if he'd never come to faith in Christ?  What do you think his life would have been, what would it have looked like? Dennis:          Well, he described himself a couple of days ago on FamilyLife Today as a happy pagan.  He was very successful in the candy business and had created a line of candies called "Bright's Confectionary Candies," I guess. Bob:                "Bright's Delights," wasn't it? Dennis:          Bright's Delights, that's right, that's right.  So maybe some major chocolate lines wouldn't be here because Bill Bright would be ruling in the candy world.  But he didn't do that, Bob.  He yielded and surrendered his life and signed over a title deed of his life, along with his wife Vonette, and for more than 50 years they not only have been married but also have been in surrendered service to Christ and have been used mightily by God. Bob:                I think one of the things that has stuck in my mind, as I've had the opportunity to meet and interact with Dr. Bright, has been his remarkable focus.  Most of us get distracted by all kinds of lesser things, but I don't think I've ever seen him in any environment at any time when he's been distracted by anything other than the Gospel.  It's always about life with Christ.  It's always about evangelism and discipleship and walking with Christ and getting to know the Savior.  I don't know if he's paid attention to anything mundane in the last 50 years. Dennis:          I think some of our listeners would probably be shocked at how little television, how few movies he's ever seen in his life.  I doubt if he reads much of the newspaper, but he saturates his mind and his heart and his life with the scriptures, and I've heard him say on a number of occasions, "I evaluate every day of my life as to how it will contribute to The Great Commission.                          Now, if you think about it, it makes sense that if Jesus Christ said "I have the greatest commission that has ever been given, that I want to give to you," wouldn't it be wise for us to evaluate our lives and how they are contributing to fulfilling what Jesus called the greatest commission – to go to the world and proclaim the Gospel. Bob:                Well, let me take our listeners with us to Bill Bright's living room at his condominium in Orlando, Florida, where we had the opportunity to enjoy a casual conversation about some deeply profound subjects.  Here's Dr. Bill Bright: Dennis:          By all measures of this world, you have lived, not a storybook life, but certainly a successful life.  You undoubtedly have a definition of what a successful life looks like.  Would you mind sharing that? Bill:                  Successful Christian life, and that's summum bonum – that's more important than any other – is the crucified life.  Paul writes in Galatians 2:20 – "I am crucified with Christ.  Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live with the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."  So the success of the Christian life belongs to those who know the reality of being crucified with Christ. Dennis:          Putting to death the flesh. Bill:                  Putting death to flesh – and out of that relationship, where Christ is all – He is Lord, He is Master, He is Savior, He is King – comes joy and rejoicing and full of glory.  So that's success – being dead to self and alive to Christ. Dennis:          As a man, as a husband, and as a father – do you have any regrets? Bill:                  I shared one with you – my failure to witness to Coach Red Sanders. Dennis:          The coach at UCLA back in the early 1950s? Bill:                  Yes.  That was an experience I've lived with all these years, because I disobeyed God. Dennis:          Any others? Bill:                  I, obviously, am far from a perfect husband or father or anything, but I don't have any regrets.  I look back on a life that's been rich and full, even the defeats, even the times of heartache and sorrow, God has used for His glory.  It's like Joseph said of his imprisonment and his problems as a result of being sold into slavery by his brothers – "What you intended for evil, God used for good."  And I've found that even in my mistakes, if my spirit is right, my heart is pure, my motives are pure, God turns my mistakes to blessings. Dennis:          Looking back over your life, you've done a lot of courageous things.  Obviously, God at work in you, but what would you say, looking back over 81 years, was the most courageous act you've ever performed? Bill:                  Well, there are many thoughts that come to mind – surrendering everything, where we signed a contract to be slaves of Jesus, putting everything in His hands – all that we owned or ever would own – that was simply an act of obedience, so I don't think it was that courageous, because I was doing what He told me to do.                           Moving to UCLA to start the ministry – I was the only one on staff, thought I was teaching school, and she joined me the second year.  I think, for example, when God led us to start Expo 72.  We'd never done anything like this and a good percentage of the staff leaders objected and some resigned.  Another time, when 13 men marched into my office, men who were like my sons whom I love to this day, every one of them, and God never allowed me to resent them, but they came into my office and demanded I resign.  They were taking over the movement.  To this day, when I have met them on different occasions, I give them a big hug and mean it.  I say, "I love you," and mean it.  That was something that God used to be a blessing.  Incidentally, six of those men left.  They were going to take the whole movement, and 750 people joined the staff that summer, and it was like God pruned so He could give fruit. Dennis:          Bill, you've been close to death because of your lung disease.  Have you ever been afraid to die? Bill:                  No. Dennis:          There's never been the fear of dying? Bill:                  As a matter of fact, God has graciously given me the joy of dying.  You know, face it, you can't lose when you go to be with the Lord.  But Vonette and I were on this airplane out of New York flying to Washington one evening some years ago, and it rained all afternoon.  The flight was delayed and delayed and delayed and finally the pilots apparently just took it in their hands and said, "We're going to fly."  So within minutes after we got in the air, we were in the middle of a firestorm.  I mean, a ball of fire and a tornado type wind, and the plane was like a leaf in the wind – it was awesome.  The wings were just going up and down like a bird, and we knew we couldn't possibly survive. So Vonette and I sat there in the plane, held hands, and prayed and said goodbye and thanked the Lord that we would soon be with Him, and it was very somber and yet – I can't say it was joyful because, frankly, it was frightening.  The plane was just about to come apart, from our perspective.  And we flew and flew and flew and just kept flying and Washington isn't that far away.  By this time, it was night, and finally we landed in a little out-of-the-way airport and discovered that the lightning had struck a hole in the fuselage.  I'd never heard of that before.  It knocked out all the navigational instruments and the pilot was flying blind. When we got off the plane, he was as white as a sheet, and he said, "In all my millions of miles, I've never had an experience like this."  Well, I didn't know it, how serious it was – oh, I knew it was serious – but when I got to Washington, D.C., the next morning we rode the bus from that place to the airport, and I got to the desk, and the girl said, "Oh, you were on that plane that was struck by lightning, and the plane has a big hole in it."  I didn't know that, of course.  I'd never heard of that happening. So then I was in Ghana – I had a summer experience where, in those days, most national airlines were not safe.  The flight was delayed again and again and again.  Finally, after some hours, we took off.  In the meantime, I'd gone around witnessing different people – nobody seemed to be interested, and so just as we were off the pad, just barely, there was this big explosion.  So I thought a tire blew out, but we came to a screeching halt and got off, and the motor had blown up, and had we been in the air, we'd be dead. Dennis:          Unbelievable. Bill:                  So I've had a few of these … Bob:                … but it's not the fear of death – we're never sure how we're going to get there, whether it's going to be a bumpy ride, whether we're going to wind up with a disease that takes us, but all of us are headed to the same place. Bill:                  Death is universal, we're all going to die.  That's the reason it's so important to know where we're going while we're still alive. Dennis:          Bill, someday the news will go out around the world, because it will be an international news event of your home-going, and when that happens, we want to honor Christ for what He did in your life, and I'm most certain that will happen through your memorial service and all that occurs after your home-going.  But I'm wondering what you would want the world to know – your final exhortation – because we're going to play a tape of a broadcast like this with you that Bob and I have done and have some of your words on it.  What would be your final exhortation to the world? Bill:                  I would say to all believers – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  Seek first His kingdom, obey His commandments, trust His promises, and spend the rest of your life getting to know Him so you can love Him and trust Him and obey Him without any hesitancy.  Vonette and I have talked about this and concluded:  My own desire was to die as I've tried to live – Galatians 2:20 – Bill Bright is crucified with Christ.  And I asked her if she would bury me in an unmarked grave as a testimony of Galatians 2:20, because dead people are dead. She didn't think it was a good idea.  So we agreed that we would have on our tombstone – "Bill and Vonette Bright, slaves of Jesus" – Philippians 2:7, Jesus was a slave.  God the Creator came to earth disguised as a slave.  And Paul speaks of himself, Romans 1:1 – "slave" and Peter and others – so we'd have appropriate references – but Bill and Vonette Bright, slaves of Jesus, because, as you know, we signed the contract in the spring of 1951 – literally wrote out a contract and signed it to be His slaves, and it's the most liberating thing that's ever happened to us.  I want that to be a testimony of the greatest privilege anyone can have – to be a slave of Jesus. Dennis:          Well, I want you to know, over a year and a half ago when the news came that it looked like you were going to be coming back to Florida, where we are here for this interview, to spend your final days and to die, I spent several hours writing you a letter of – just expressing my profound appreciation for being an employee for 33 years of Campus Crusade.  I'm coming up on my 33rd year.  Bill, it's a miracle you didn't fire me. Bill:                  You're too young. Dennis:          But I really – I appreciate you, your life, and I wanted you to know that face-to-face.  I wrote you the letter and expressed that in that letter, God used my dad in my life and some key pastors to disciple me, and I count you right up there at the top with them of men who have had a profound impact on my life. Bill:                  I'm not worthy to hear that, but I was so moved when you expressed your love in that way in the letter.  I treasure that. Dennis:          Well, I know you received quite a few of them, because I would run into guys who had said they had been to visit you, and I thought, "He's not going to have time to die.  He's got too many people lined up to express appreciation," but I love you. Bill:                  Well, you are very special to me, Dennis.  I have shared with many people through the years what an inspiration and challenge you are to me – what a blessing you are, and I'm just honored to be on this program, and I believe, in spite of the way God's already used you, the best is before you, and I predict that in your lifetime your influence will be as great as anything I've been privileged to experience worldwide. Dennis:          You are very kind. Bob:                Well, this has been a treat.  Over the last three days we've been listening to an interview that was recorded just a few months ago with Dr. Bill Bright, the founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ, and, boy, there at the end, it was a tender moment. Dennis:          It was and, frankly, I didn't think I was going to have the opportunity to say that face-to-face, Bob.  I had written some very tender words to him privately and had sent them to him because I thought, frankly, he was dying, but it was not something that I intended to do there at the end of our interview, but looking back on hearing those words again, it was a sweet moment, and I don't want our listeners to go away just yet, because at the end I was sitting there, and I was looking at you, Bob, and I really love and appreciate you, and I was thinking, "You know, if I was Bob, I would really like to hear Bill Bright pray for me."  And so I asked him to do that at the end, and he prayed for not only Bob but for me as well … Bob:                … he prayed for both of us … Dennis:          … and I want our listeners to hear that prayer. Bob:                Before we play that, let me let you know that we have copies of Dr. Bright's book on the character of God, the attributes of God.  It's called "God:  Discover His Character."  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy or you can go online at FamilyLife.com.  Either way, we can have the book sent to you.  This is something you can use in your quiet time, you can use it for a group Bible study, you can use it for family devotions.  If you're home schooling, you can use it for your Bible curriculum with your children.  This is fundamental to how we live as Christians.  So let me encourage you to get a copy of this book, make sure it's in your library.  Again, it's called "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright, and you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy or order online at FamilyLife.com.                         When you do contact us, if you'd like to get a copy of the complete interview with Dr. Bright – we've only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today – but we have the entire discussion available on CD or on cassette, and you can request that resource online at FamilyLife.com or when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. As we played back that conversation, Dennis, I was thinking about the letter that you are going to be sending out to our Legacy Partners here in the next few weeks, where you talk about the fact that we have lost our respect for authority and our fear of God.  When we do know God, we develop a reverence and awe for who He is, and I appreciated your comments in that letter.  It's part of our regular communication with those folks who so support this ministry on a monthly basis.  Not only do they hear from you, but we often hear from them.  In fact, we had a Legacy Partner in New York state who wrote recently and said, "Pray for guidance on what would be God's perfect plan for us, whether we ought to add a fourth child to our family.  We just finished our most recent Homebuilders study, and our spiritual growth has skyrocketed.  Thank you for your prayers.  We are praying for you."  What a delight to hear from folks who not only support this ministry with their financial gifts but those of you who pray for us as well.  We have just added a whole bunch of new Legacy Partners to this ministry, and thanks to those of you who have joined with us in this effort. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner, or if you'd like to request prayer, you can write to us at FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221, or you can make a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and you can also phone in your donation at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Well, I hope our listeners have had the chance to listen over the last three days.  If not, I hope you'll get either the cassettes or the CDs of our conversation with Dr. Bill Bright.  That dialog went on for nearly two hours, and at the end of that time, Dennis, you asked Dr. Bright to pray for us, and we wanted our listeners to hear that prayer.  Here is Dr. Bill Bright. Bill:                  Father, Father, Holy Father, we bow in reverence before Your majesty.  We are in awe of Your greatness.  When we think of who You are, we realize how little we are, how small in comparison, and yet even when we were yet in our sins, You died for us.  You love us.  You delight in us, and I thank You that in your sovereignty You chose Dennis and Bob to do what they're doing, and You've anointed them and given them favor and great blessing, and I ask, Holy Father, You'll keep them pure, keep their motives pure, their hearts pure, their attitudes, their desires, that they will be men of God after Your heart.  There will be no sin in their lives that will hinder Your working in and through them.  That is they speak day after day to millions of people, and that number, O gracious God, I pray will increase by the millions.  They will be channels of Your love, Your forgiveness, Your grace, to the multitudes of earth.  I pray for the day when their ministry will literally encircle the globe, where millions upon millions, day after day, will be drawn closer to You, will love You and trust You and obey You because of their influence.  Lord Jesus, bless their families – their families and their children's children's children yet unborn, that they may always love You, serve You, trust You, obey You, and that the legacy of these men will go on and on until You return.  Blessed Holy Father, thank You once again for these men whom You have chosen, whom You have anointed, whom You have empowered and may all glory, honor, worship, and praise go to You.  We pray it in the name of the One whose name is above everything, the Lord Jesus Christ.  Amen. Bob:                FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

What's the best - and quickest - way for a B2B business to gain marketing traction and turn contacts into customers? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, boomtime CEO Bill Bice talks about his approach to word of mouth marketing. A serial entrepreneur, board advisor and one-time venture capitalist, Bill has seen what works across a wide range of companies, and now his company boomtime is helping B2B businesses grow by leveraging content and LinkedIn to generate buzz. Check out this episode to get the details of Bill's process and learn how you can use it to improve your own inbound marketing results. Highlights from my conversation with Bill include: Bill says that the three main objectives of word of mouth marketing are to build our audience, follow up on all of the prospects that you're generating, and stay top of mind with that audience. The easiest way to generate new business is through referrals, and the key to getting referrals is to give your audience something to talk about. Bill says most companies make the mistake of talking all about themselves on social media, when in reality they should be focused on educating their audiences. The two most common mistakes that companies make when it comes to marketing are to not make it a top priority and not be consistent with it. Three keys to successful marketing are building a response mobile website, having a robust email marketing program, and making a lot of connections on LinkedIn. In a crowded content landscape, one of the best ways to stand out and attract qualified leads is to build an audience and then invest in educating them through your content. Boomtime helps companies use this same process by outsourcing content creation for them to 300+ subject matter experts. They also help manage their clients' LinkedIn strategies. Bill says that with a well optimized profile, he'll get between a 35 and 50% acceptance rate on connection requests, sending 40 to 50 connection requests a day, and 6 to 8% of those people will start a conversation either from the connection request or he will often send a followup message with whatever the best performing piece of content is. Resources from this episode: Visit the boomtime website Connect with (or follow) Bill on LinkedIn Check out Bill's B2B Marketing podcast Listen to the podcast to learn how word of mouth marketing can help you increase the ROI of your marketing strategy. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and this week my guest is Bill Bice, who is the CEO of Boomtime. Welcome to the podcast, Bill. Bill Bice (Guest): Kathleen it's great to be with you. Thanks. Bill and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Yeah, thanks for joining me. I love your story because you scratched your own itch and solved a problem that you were having and I always find that those are some of the most interesting conversations. So I'm really excited to dig into it. Can we start by having you tell my audience a little bit about your story, who you are, what you're doing now with Boomtime, and what led you down that path? Meet Bill Bice Bill: So I feel like I was born an entrepreneur. I started my first company when I was 18, a software company, and of course I had no idea what I was doing, but over enough time, got a great team, and built a great company, and out of that we had enough success in selling that company that I got to be part of an early stage VC fund. And so I have founded and invested and been on the board of a whole host of companies. I actually sat down and counted them up so I could say it's 27 companies, and there is a not shocking correlation in those companies, which are the ones where we've had the most success are where we really focused on going to market and nailed that. And so you do all this really hard work to create an amazing product or service, and yet how good you are at marketing is going to determine what kind of reward you get for doing that. And I just got really frustrated in trying to get great marketing for my own companies, and so I decided to tackle that problem. Kathleen: I love it. And I think probably most of the people who listen to this podcast would agree that great marketing is important for growing your company. So that's awesome. So can you talk a little bit about specifically what Boomtime does? Bill: Yeah, so we've really focused in on B2B, we have a history in doing some work in B2C, but most of my experience has been in B2B. And the thing that I really like about B2B is that we've been able to take sort of the core framework or playbook and apply it to really any sort of highly complex, valuable transaction. So it doesn't really work for things that are volume-based. But if you're selling something high value, then the approach, I mean, I'm really a programmer at heart, so to me it was all about the data. And one of the things that I have found really challenging about marketing is unlike every other discipline in our businesses, here we have one that just refuses to accept scale and efficiency. It's just a core problem with marketing. And we do it everywhere else in our business, and it really has to happen in marketing also. And so I just tackled that from the standpoint of following the data in a very iterative process and learning what works. We don't really have to, although experimentation is key, we don't have to you, you've got bigger competitors who have spent millions of dollars figuring out how to do exactly what you need to do. You've just got to figure out what's the smaller version of that for my business that's going to work for me. And so that's what we've been doing in the B2B world. It's very much a B2B content marketing inbound approach that is what's really compatible with most of the sort of small, that two to $20 million a year business that really does a great job of taking care of their customers, but would like to grow. Or maybe has been growing in that sort of plateaued and didn't really quite understand what was making that work before, and what was making it work was word of mouth. And so we now live in this great era where we can actually really amplify the effect of word of mouth because we're all connected digitally. And so that's the thing that we have focused on. Word of mouth marketing Kathleen: So let's take it to another level of detail. I love that you said that the challenge that you're trying to solve is making companies go-to-market strategies repeatable, scalable, more efficient and really focusing that around the power of word of mouth. What does that look like in practice? If somebody is using boomtime for example, and this isn't necessarily a commercial for the product, but obviously you were trying to solve a problem that you saw through the product. So I'm curious to know, in detail, what does that really look like? Bill: Well, so the three things we want to accomplish is we want to build our audience, we want to follow up on all of, we would be much better at capturing and following up on all of the prospects that we're generating. And then we want to stay top of mind with that audience. And if you do those things really well and you do it with this focus on, let's take the thing that's already working, word of mouth, and let's just leverage digital tools to accomplish the same thing. So we think of it as social currency, like we're going to create a lot more referrals. So let's assume that referrals are really valuable to your business. And the vast majority of business owners I sit down with and I say, well, one of my favorite questions is, where'd your last couple of new clients come from? And the answer, 99% of the time is, "Oh, it was a referral from so-and-so." Because that's what really works. And if you focus on giving your audience social currency, giving them a reason to talk about you, there's a really wonderful thing happens, which is you get more referrals. And the way you do that is just flip your content, flip your marketing on its head. So most marketing for most companies, 100% of what they do should be 10%, because it's all about them. It's the number one mistake in marketing is talking about yourself. Nobody cares. I mean, honestly, your clients just don't care about the new person you hired, the new client that you won. That should be 10% of your marketing. If you put 90% of your effort into sharing your expertise, then suddenly your marketing becomes this really valuable way to communicate with your audience and you give them reasons to talk about you. Word of mouth marketing in practice Kathleen: So can you give me an example of a campaign, for example, that either you've done or that one of your customers has done using the system that you have in place, just so that we can maybe have a mental model through which to understand how it all works? Bill: Yeah, I'm going to use ourselves as the example, because we had the classic problem that a lot of, we don't really consider ourselves a traditional agency, but you see agencies do this all the time, which is you're really good at marketing and yet you don't apply it to yourself. Kathleen: Our first child. Bill: Yes. The thing that's really helped us grow is when we, we actually changed our internal processes to be able to treat ourselves as a client and give one of our marketing strategists credit for us as if we were paying ourselves as a client. Because only by doing that did we actually put the priority in our own marketing. We're literally having the same problem that every business has, which is marketing's always the fourth or fifth thing that you think about, and everybody gets stuck in this same cycle of you focus on marketing when things are kind of slow and then they pick back up. And yet the second biggest mistake in marketing is inconsistency. And it's just clear in the data that being consistent in your marketing is the number one thing you can do to make it pay off. Whatever you're going to do, do it consistently. Pick a longterm strategy you can really commit to and be serious about it. And so when we started doing the same thing for ourselves, which is literally just laying out everything we've learned and following the data, I mean, it's amazing what happens when you bring several hundred like clients together, put them on one platform, be able to aggregate that data and see what's happening. It's so difficult, even if you can have the best marketing director in the world, you only have the data in your one company to work with. Being able to multiply that across several hundred companies, it's incredible what you learn. So we've just taken that and started sharing what we've learned. I'm very passionate about small businesses. It's where innovation comes from, it's what drives our economy. I would love for every small business owner to be doing exactly these things. And our version of this is to share our expertise and what we've learned and layout exactly what you want to do in your marketing. It's the best way to promote what we do, just to share. I mean you can literally take this and go do it yourself. You will be better off if you do that. And that's my number one goal with every one of our clients is we want their prospects to be better off because sat down and got exposed to that company. Whether they ever choose to use their product or service or not, because that's what's going to create word of mouth. Kathleen: So you guys used it for yourselves and what did that look like? Talk me through your campaign that you did. Bill: So it's very content oriented. So in B2B, one of the things that I love about it, it's actually pretty simple. Because if you do three things well your marketing is going to work. If you build a responsive mobile website that really pays attention to the customer journey, if you do really good email marketing and you build an audience on LinkedIn, and if in particular, if you stitch those together and understand the customer journey across those three channels, you will really understand what's working, what's creating engagement and you will be able to get new prospects and pull them down the funnel. And so when we started doing that for ourselves and putting out regular content that was just sharing what we know how to do, it created a different perspective in our audience about who we are and what we do. And it started bringing to us prospects that are much better educated, that were ready for much deeper conversations when we got started. It's one of the core problems in marketing today, which is our prospects have access to so much information, and there's so much that they can learn. You've really got to decide do you want to be an order taker or do you want to be part of that educational process? And the only way you can really create new sales opportunities is to start at the very top of the funnel and be part of that educational process. So that was the change that happened for us when we really started talking about here's what works, here's what we've learned, and just laying that out and doing that consistency thing. When we started doing that really, just week in and week out, every single week. It takes a while. That's the problem with it. I don't believe there are any miracles or short term fixes in marketing, but if you commit to it and then the results start to come in over time and it really changes the trajectory of your company. How content fuels word of mouth Kathleen: Now, how does the content that you're creating feed into word of mouth? Bill: Well, that content is that social currency. It's giving people really concrete things that they can do. So let's take LinkedIn, for example. Like no matter how much effort you're putting into LinkedIn, you should be putting more. If you just look at the engagement data and the growth over the last two years, it's incredible what's happening on LinkedIn, and they really made the switch to getting people to really put time in depth into LinkedIn. And I look at LinkedIn as the ideal networking event, right? I get to meet exactly who I want. I don't have to eat high calorie food at the same time, and you need to approach it like a networking event, which is you're really there to build your network and be helpful, to that note. And if you take that approach and you say, "Okay, I've got an audience now that I'm going to build on LinkedIn, I'm going to run an aggressive connection campaign to get connected to every great prospect for me that's in the market." And then you say, "Okay, now I'm going to share the thing that I know, that I'm an expert at because I've got perspective across..." You might be the CEO or CIO, whoever your decision maker is in your prospective company, you're running your one company. But I work with hundreds or thousands of companies like you, which means I can bring perspective to you that's really valuable to you. And if you're willing to share that, to give away whatever you consider the most valuable thing that you have, give that away as your marketing. That will dramatically change how prospects see you and it will create sales opportunities that didn't exist before. And so executing it on that on LinkedIn is the primary way that we grow. This is very meta, because that's how we grow and the way we do it is to describe exactly how you should do it. Kathleen: Got it. So it's an education play through LinkedIn, then? Bill: If you're in B2B, it's really the best way to grow your company. You'd have to be in a really strange niche for the prospects you want to not be sitting out there on LinkedIn today. Now there are quite a few other software platforms that help B2B and other types of companies with content marketing, with inbound marketing, companies like HubSpot, you've got SharpSpring, there's a ton of them out there. How does the solution that you've built fit within that ecosystem? Well, sort of the short answer is HubSpot with help. So we're not selling a piece of software. What we're doing is selling the end result, the service. So the big surprise with HubSpot, and HubSpot's a great platform, there are a ton of really good marketing automation systems out there, and if you're going to do this internally, you absolutely should implement one of them. The problem, the surprise, after you start paying for that subscription is then the two people you have to hire to get any value out of HubSpot. And a lot of companies, what they really want is just the end result of that as opposed to having to go through all of that process. And one of the things I've seen over and over again, so if you're going to do that internally, one of my strongest recommendations is everybody tries to create the content internally and unless you really put tremendous focus and resources behind that, it almost never works. You really need to go. So the way we've done it is we've built a network of 300 subject matter experts. We don't do any writing internally. There's always somebody out there who already knows your audience really well. Go find that person who you don't have to teach them your market, they've been writing for it, they have been working with the industry pubs or the events in that area, and you can, half hour brainstorming session, you can come up with six months of editorial. What you need is a great stream of regular content that doesn't require you sit in front of a blank screen and have to come up with it yourself. So you can implement all of this yourself, you just, you need to put in the marketing automation system. You need to find the resources that know how to do that. And then you've got to follow the data to really understand what's creating engagement and keep testing every piece of it so you get better with every turn of the cycle. Kathleen: So if somebody is using Boomtime, do they also need to have these other platforms or is Boomtime really a replacement for these things? Bill: So if we're doing that as a service for somebody that you don't really need a marketing automation system. It's great if you have a CRM. One of our biggest challenges is that nobody really uses their CRM the way that they should. And so our approach is to integrate with the CRM and put the end results in the CRM system. One of the challenges with that building your audience part is that your sales team always has many more opportunities that they're working on than what ends up in the CRM. CRMs are really designed for sales managers. And if you put somebody in the CRM, you're going to get questioned about it. So what most sales people do is they only put people who are fairly deep into the funnel into the CRM, which means we're not building our audience and we're not following up with all of the prospects that we have. So one of the tricks that we do is go mine the email boxes of everybody who's customer facing in your company and feed that into your CRM so we're getting that central database. Because particularly if you're in B2B, your sales people are talking to those early prospects via email. So there is a record of it and we can go capture it and we can make their job easier by filling that information in for them. And it's amazing what happens if you just follow up on all those prospects that are already in your firm. It's great low hanging fruit, you just got to go get it. Kathleen: So do you typically work with smaller companies? Because it sounds like really this is a solution for companies that don't have a large marketing team, for example, that really need the external help and that don't have a super sophisticated tech stack already in place. It sounds like it's a good way for a company that recognizes that they need to be able to make their marketing more scalable to really get started with that. Is that accurate? Bill: Yes. So you sort of have two groups. It's the kind of $2 to $5 million year company where we're really doing it for them. And then once you get to the point where you have a marketing director, often we're just working under their direction doing this one piece that I recommend you get automated and process around it no matter how big you are, which is just this regular flow of really great content. The ideas come from in the company, come from the executive team, but we get the content creation outsourced because it's so expensive to do it internally. And if you do this well, that of course is the hard part. Doing it well is difficult. But if you do, then having this regular flow of great content come in, no matter how big your company is, just feed your whole marketing operation in a really wonderful way. So unless you're to the point where you can have a full time staff of writers doing that for you, and even then I would argue it's going to be really cost effective to supplement that with outside resources. So we'll often work with a larger company where that's the piece that we do, because we've gotten really good at it, and there's just, there's a ton of value for you getting that piece essentially automated. From the marketing director standpoint, you just have this great flow of content that shows up and gets distributed and you get data behind it. So I recommend making that happen no matter how big you are. Kathleen: So it's very interesting, because there's a lot of debate around this topic of should you insource or outsource content creation and you are definitely falling on the outsource side. It's interesting, I am building a team right now at my company and I've chosen to totally insource it. So I've hired a writer. For me- Bill: You know what you're doing. Kathleen: Well, let's just say for me it's also that we're in a very technically complex industry and I feel like I need somebody who can, it's a big learning curve and I want somebody who's full time in it, really learning it. Have you found success in addressing that through outsource content? Bill: Yeah, but you have to avoid the copywriter problem, which is the somebody who was working, really good writer, but was working on a car dealership last week and he's going to figure out your very niche enterprise SaaS solution this week. And so the way to do that, we do a lot of work in professional services, law firms. So if you're going to work in a law firm where the partner, the practice head for that area of law is very particular about that content. The only way you can do that is to go find a JD who's practiced in that area before. But the law firms never going to create it internally because they could be billing $600 an hour instead of writing the blog article you want them to create, but you can go find somebody who's been in that practice area, didn't enjoy the practice of law, understands the area really well. Get the ideas from the practice head in that 30 minute brainstorming session, give them five bullet points about the things that they need to cover. They can go do the research, and then all we have to do is get the voice right, which frankly is really difficult. We've ended up dividing that into two levels. The expertise to get the content and then an editor who's really good at capturing the voice. Kathleen: Yeah. I will say that when I've seen outsource content creation work, the only way I've seen it work is when you have a writer who's interviewing your subject matter expert. Anytime I see companies say, Oh, here's a topic, go run with it, I just see crappy, crappy results. because honestly whenever you're outsourcing and you're just giving somebody a topic, I feel like with that person is doing is they're Googling that topic. And so by definition you're not going to have anything new to add in your content, because it's coming from aggregations of other sources. Whereas if you interview a subject matter expert, you can get something original. But that does take a very strong writer and a very strong editor to really be able to do that well and in a way that is unique. Bill: Absolutely. And if you just wanted a content farm, I mean 90% of the efforts should be on creating great content. And so by definition, you're not going to get there if you're cutting the corners there. If we don't have great content, all the tactics that we talk about aren't going to matter one bit. We have to start with really capturing the unique expertise that you have and finding interesting ways to communicate that. Kathleen: So if somebody is listening and they're thinking, I want to improve my marketing results, I'm a B2B company, what are some really concrete things you think that they could do right now to get started? Getting started with word of mouth marketing Bill: Well, what everybody always wants is more leads, and the easiest solution is to go spend money on ads to generate those leads. And yet one of the reasons it's so difficult for that smaller company to ever get an ROI on that is that without the marketing foundation in place, that's never going to pay off. So don't take the easy route. You got to focus on those core pieces first and build that funnel and actually be capturing and following up on all your prospects. And then the easiest way to expand your audience is to focus on LinkedIn. If you take the same approach and you're very helpful and you're sharing expertise, then you can run a LinkedIn connection campaign where you're adding 1,120 new connections a month, every single month, growing this audience of exactly the right prospects that you're now sharing really valuable insight with and that will do a wonderful thing for you. It will create sales opportunities you didn't have before. It'll be the right sales opportunities with people who are much further down the process and are really ready to have a serious conversation with you. So what we see in the data is with a well optimized profile, we'll get between a 35 and 45%, sometimes in the low 50% acceptance rate on on the connection requests, sending 40 to 50 connection requests a day, and six to 8% of those people will start a conversation either from the connection request or we will often send a followup message with whatever our best performing inside driven piece of content is. None of this can be salesy at all, we all get those kinds of connection requests. Kathleen: I was going to say, are you doing an InMail? What are you doing there? Bill: It's not InMail. It's really building the network of people you should be connected to, because you have expertise that's directly relevant to them. And it's sharing that, it's not selling them. I mean, I see that all the time of we get something back from a client who just wants to dive right into the sales pitch. And that would be the same thing as walking into a cocktail party, meeting somebody for the first time, and then starting to give them a sales pitch. Until they ask for it, that doesn't work. You've got to build the relationship first. But if you take that approach, this is the easiest, most concrete thing you can do in B2B to get more sales opportunities. But ironically, the way you do that is stop selling. What kinds of results can you expect? Kathleen: So what kinds of results have your clients gotten from doing this? Bill: So that those are kind of aggregate numbers across the hundreds of of connection campaigns that we're running in just sort of any kind of high value B2B, a lot of professional services, a lot of high end products. And so the thing that we really look at is how many new opportunities are we creating and so, oh, a really good campaign, so my connection campaign, I'm running at about a 54% acceptance rate on connections, which is great. One of the things you often have to do is optimize your profile specifically for that audience that you're going to go after. If you're going after multiple niches, do one at a time, because you'll get a much higher connection. And then we're getting our primary source of new clients is off of the connection campaigns that we run for myself and our chief revenue officer. So this works much better for the executive team in your company, particularly for smaller companies. It's really not about your company profile at all. That's just not where we're going to get the activity. And even in a larger company, the more you can get the executive team and people higher up in the company to participate, the better the results that you're going to get. People want to connect with other people on LinkedIn and it just, it works so much better. And so that six to eight percent of new conversations, when you think about that coming from a thousand new connections a month, this is really the new form and you can run this yourself. You can take an hour a day and do a golden hour of prospecting around LinkedIn connections and you will get much more value out of that than making cold calls for that same time period. But if you're a salesperson who's responsible for doing that for your company, you will get better results if you can get the VP of sales or CEO to do that and let you run it for them. Kathleen: So you have about a 54% connection acceptance rate. And you mentioned that those turned into clients. What is your conversion rate from the people who accept your connection to your leads and then to your customers and how are you measuring that? How are you, how are you tracking? Bill: So there's a plus and minus to LinkedIn, which is the data's really easy to follow, but for personal profiles, the only way you can get it is logging in and looking at it, and it disappears after three months, which is kind of annoying, but it's really easy to see what's working to create engagement. And the LinkedIn algorithm is really simple. Likes and comments are essentially equal value and then you can just chart it and see how many likes and comments you get versus the percentage of your network that gets exposed to that feed. It's just a direct relationship. So I call it going everyday viral. Like our goal isn't to come up with the one piece of content that just explodes. It's to have regular content that does well over and over again in this really specific audience is exactly the people that you want to talk to. And that gives you two bites at the apple. When you make the initial connection request and sometimes you just happen to be reaching out to somebody right when they need your expertise and so you get lucky. But now, because they belong to your network, if you follow that up with a regular flow of insightful content, then you get to talk to them forever so you get a second forever bite at the apple, and both of those are really effective. You get sales opportunities that come right out of the gate and then it just comes with that regular followup. As long as you're good at getting exposure to this audience that you've created. And so many people do work on LinkedIn where they only focus on the first part, building the network, and they don't really focus on the regular updates to that network that really leveraged having created it. And if you do both, you'll get a much better pay off from that effort. Kathleen: How quickly should somebody expect to see results from something like this? Bill: You're going to get early positive indications. So you'll get some wins that show you you're in the right direction. We typically see it within the first 30 to 60 days. But the real payoff comes when you've been doing this for six months, 12 months, 18 months. We really put a focus internally ourselves on LinkedIn starting two years ago and we're seeing a much more significant pay off today than we did in the first six months. Because you really get a reputation for providing valuable information. then one of the great things you can do, somewhere about 5,000 connections, you should switch your LinkedIn button from being connect to follow, because you'll get enough organic traffic now that people will just start following you because of the content that you're sharing. And they won't even show up as asking for connection requests. They're just following you, you're not following them. And that's really when you sort of hit the point of getting a real payback on what you're doing. Kathleen: And you do that in your LinkedIn settings? Bill: I do. Yeah. And you need a big enough following where it makes sense that people would come and start just following you because because of what you're doing and you need to be doing those content updates very regularly. But I get about, right now, about 40% of the additions to my network come from people just following me as opposed to the connection requests that we're sending out. Kathleen: Got it. Very cool. Well that's an interesting tip I haven't heard somebody mention before, so there's a new one for you. Switch your button from connect to follow. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Before we get too close to out of time, quick questions for you that I always ask all my guests. The first one is, we've talked a lot about inbound marketing here and content marketing. I'm curious, who do you think, company or individual, is there somebody that you think is doing particularly well right now? Bill: What I want to do is, is turn that into a suggestion for, because there's somebody in your market that is doing that really well. And what I always find very valuable, anytime I'm starting to work with in a new area, is I want to go find whoever is the, I'm not looking for the biggest player, I'm looking for sort of the mid size company that is big enough to have weight behind what they're doing, they're really good at it and they're showing innovation. So I want to flip that around just a little bit and say there's somebody doing, I mean, I've always been able to find one in every single market we've gone into. So even in legal, this enormously conservative market, there's always, we start working with an intellectual property law firm. We found a firm that is doing an excellent job of content marketing in that area and I find it so much faster to learn from somebody who's already doing a really good job of that then to figure it all out ourselves. And somebody is doing that in your market, so spend the time to go do that. And every single market we work in, we have found somebody who's really great at it, who's already doing it, that we've learned a ton from. Kathleen: Anyone in particular who stands out, anyone who somebody wants to go online and see someone who's really best in class that they should look at? Bill: So the IP example, Fish and Richardson does a really good example of, that's one of these really niche-y examples. That's a deep technical area that's tough to do well. And so seeing somebody do it well, it's really the best answer to the question you asked before, which is how do you pull that off? Kathleen: Okay, great. And digital marketing obviously changes so quickly. How do you personally stay up to date on everything that's going on in that world? Bill: So I've become a huge fan of podcasts, now. I'm finally following in your footsteps and doing a podcast. So I've learned from your podcasts, there's about 20 different marketing related podcasts that I listened to. I really like, particularly in the sort of email marketing and LinkedIn side, I like Growth Hackers, because there's always somebody who's already run a test that's doing the thing that you're thinking about doing. So I'm just a big, so unlike when I was 18 and I thought I knew it all and it took me a really long time to figure anything out, I think it makes so much more sense to take advantage of this unique attribute we have of being able to find somebody who already is doing what we're doing, put ourselves in their place and learn from them. Like our ability to get where we want to go so much faster, because of that is amazing. So let's learn from everybody who's already done it before and Growth Hackers is just full of people who are doing exactly that. And I love, a lot of it's very data-driven, which obviously I'm big on, and just great way to learn. How to connect with Bill Kathleen: Bill, if somebody wants to reach out and learn from you or has a question and wants to get in touch, what's the best way for them to do that? Bill: So I'm a CEO of boomtime.com. I love talking about marketing. Happy to have you reach out if you want to. If you want to see the thing that I'm talking about, I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. Go look up my profile. You'll see exactly what we are talking about and of course we're at boomtime.com. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Great. All right, well if you are listening and you learn something new or liked what you heard, please stop what you're doing, take a minute, and go to Apple podcasts and leave a five star review for the podcast. It makes a huge difference. That's how people find us and I would greatly appreciate it. And if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next interview. Thank you so much, Bill. Bill: It's been a lot of fun. Thanks. Kathleen: Thanks.

Chicken Waffle! Now that we have your attention, check out this episode of XR for Business. Centertec CEO Bill Tustin joins Alan to talk location-based VR “retail-tainment.” Fun, exciting XR technologies are revitalizing America’s malls, and taking kids on field trips across the stars or through the pyramids; places they could never go in real life. Alan: Today’s guest is Bill Tustin. Bill has owned a location-based VR location for over three years. He’s worked for 25 years in the casino banking industry, teaching them how to implement technologies that increase their revenues, create great customer experiences and have fantastic ROI. He has used that experience to create a successful location-based VR place with multiple revenue sources, including XR educational content and XR programs. His company just made a seed investment in Chicken Waffle — crazy name! — but it’s an XR solution provider that develops innovative solutions with high-quality branded experiences. They’ve created many enterprise experiences in a world for an amazing list of partners and clients. [You can learn more about Bill’s business at www.centertec.com]. They’re working on all sorts of really cool IP, and I want to welcome to the show: Bill Tustin. Thanks for joining me. Bill: Thank you. Alan: Thank you so much. You’ve been working in VR a long time. What are some of the best experiences you’ve seen, and what drives you to do what you’re doing? Bill: Really? The smiles on people’s faces. We work with a lot of children, and the children and the teachers are very excited about learning about VR, experiencing VR. Just, customers’ experiences has been great for the last few years. Alan: Awesome. You say you were working with children. Is this just location-based entertainment? Or, what are you finding is something that… what is resonating with everybody? Bill: From the educational aspect of it, where they can go and experience a visual education experience? The teachers actually have been really excited about it; just the fact that they can go, like, for example, to the civil war, and experience of battle with great artwork. It educates some really, really well. Especially the younger they are, the more they get excited about it. Alan: So, what’s one of the best XR, or VR/AR, experiences that you’ve ever had? Bill: Well, for children? Space. Anything with space, they get really excited about. Anything underwater. These are all experiences that they can’t experience in real life. You can’t experience space right now — I mean, hopefully in the future you will — and most people don’t really go scuba diving, especially kids. So, they’re going to really experience underwater adventures, or Space Adventures. And then, on the education aspect, we work very closely with the schools on exactly what they’re teaching them, so the education aspect of it is in on the experience. Alan: Interesting. You made an investment in Chicken Waffle. Can you maybe tell us what’s… what’s Chicken Waffle? As soon as I heard the name, I was like, “what the heck is a Chicken Waffle?” Bill: The founder of Chicken Waffle actually co-founded TheWaveVR. He actually still owns TheWaveVR, which became a very big social media music platform. One of the reasons why we invested in them is, we saw a need in the education field, where just the content that was there wasn’t really up to par for the children. They really wanted to have more interactive experiences. It just seemed like a lot

Chicken Waffle! Now that we have your attention, check out this episode of XR for Business. Centertec CEO Bill Tustin joins Alan to talk location-based VR “retail-tainment.” Fun, exciting XR technologies are revitalizing America’s malls, and taking kids on field trips across the stars or through the pyramids; places they could never go in real life. Alan: Today’s guest is Bill Tustin. Bill has owned a location-based VR location for over three years. He’s worked for 25 years in the casino banking industry, teaching them how to implement technologies that increase their revenues, create great customer experiences and have fantastic ROI. He has used that experience to create a successful location-based VR place with multiple revenue sources, including XR educational content and XR programs. His company just made a seed investment in Chicken Waffle — crazy name! — but it’s an XR solution provider that develops innovative solutions with high-quality branded experiences. They’ve created many enterprise experiences in a world for an amazing list of partners and clients. [You can learn more about Bill’s business at www.centertec.com]. They’re working on all sorts of really cool IP, and I want to welcome to the show: Bill Tustin. Thanks for joining me. Bill: Thank you. Alan: Thank you so much. You’ve been working in VR a long time. What are some of the best experiences you’ve seen, and what drives you to do what you’re doing? Bill: Really? The smiles on people’s faces. We work with a lot of children, and the children and the teachers are very excited about learning about VR, experiencing VR. Just, customers’ experiences has been great for the last few years. Alan: Awesome. You say you were working with children. Is this just location-based entertainment? Or, what are you finding is something that… what is resonating with everybody? Bill: From the educational aspect of it, where they can go and experience a visual education experience? The teachers actually have been really excited about it; just the fact that they can go, like, for example, to the civil war, and experience of battle with great artwork. It educates some really, really well. Especially the younger they are, the more they get excited about it. Alan: So, what’s one of the best XR, or VR/AR, experiences that you’ve ever had? Bill: Well, for children? Space. Anything with space, they get really excited about. Anything underwater. These are all experiences that they can’t experience in real life. You can’t experience space right now — I mean, hopefully in the future you will — and most people don’t really go scuba diving, especially kids. So, they’re going to really experience underwater adventures, or Space Adventures. And then, on the education aspect, we work very closely with the schools on exactly what they’re teaching them, so the education aspect of it is in on the experience. Alan: Interesting. You made an investment in Chicken Waffle. Can you maybe tell us what’s… what’s Chicken Waffle? As soon as I heard the name, I was like, “what the heck is a Chicken Waffle?” Bill: The founder of Chicken Waffle actually co-founded TheWaveVR. He actually still owns TheWaveVR, which became a very big social media music platform. One of the reasons why we invested in them is, we saw a need in the education field, where just the content that was there wasn’t really up to par for the children. They really wanted to have more interactive experiences. It just seemed like a lot

Bill D'Alessandro believes that one of the most fulfilling things in life is working on hard things with smart people. The allure of the 4-hour work-week mentality can easily take over when starting out as an ecommerce entrepreneur, but might not be the smartest tactic for all businesses. There is now a trend gearing businesses towards something more lasting. Bill was living the 4-hour work week dream until he decided to change it up and “grow up” in his business. Since having made the decision to hire, Bill has seen business grow as his company, Element Brands, grows. He's now able to step away less often but more easily because he runs his business with quality people, that he pays well, and who are motivated to help him grow. Bill is based in Charlotte, North Carolina and currently owns a portfolio of nearly 10 e-commerce sites primarily focused on household goods and personal care. Though Bill started the entrepreneur life as a digital nomad, he recently made the the switch to a corporate warehouse/office location in Charlotte and has 22 full time employees. Episode Highlights: The building of the Elements portfolio and how that process came about. Using in-house vs. a broker for brand acquisition. How Bill came to the choice of creating this more traditional business style. What Bill's typical day is like. An example of when an employee saved Bill money as a result of their loyalty to the company. How the structure allows Bill to disconnect thanks to the competent team he has in place. Tips on hiring, vetting, and finding the cream of the crop. Bill's own hiring process. Preferences for outsourcing people vs in-house training them. Noncompetes Bill has in place and how they work well for him. There are plenty of people out there interested in not being entrepreneurs but are interested in helping build great brands. Transcription: Mark: Okay one of the most popular business books that I can remember coming out in the past 15 years has been the 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. And I'm going to admit I was a little annoyed when this book came out because all of a sudden everybody tried to become Tim Ferriss juniors where they were having their 2-hours per week that they were setting aside to answer e-mails and take phone calls. And so if I needed to reach out to them they would explain to me … they would say well I only answer e-mails during this time or I only take phone calls during this time and of course if it didn't work with my schedule tough luck because they had their 4-hour workweek and they only had half of that dedicated to e-mails. And I think a lot of people went to that 4-hour workweek. During that time there was this allure of I can sit on the beach, I can take vacations and have this business that's completely automated. That still has some allure today but more and more I hear people talking about being grownups in their business. Changing the way that they're going about their business, hiring staffs instead of just doing pure outsourcing, building something that's a little bit more lasting than what we've seen with some of that 4-hour workweek sort of business structure. So, Joe, I know you talked to a friend of ours Bill D'Alessandro. He was living that dream of the 4-hour workweek for a long time and then so to speak and Bill I would not say that you are a kid by any means but he grew up in business. Joe: Yeah, he did and let me say right now folks that I'm having my house power washed so you're going to hear the people in the background. Mark: That's why I was talking so long I was hoping that it would stop but it did not stop. Joe: We're all entrepreneurs, right? Life of an entrepreneur, I'm working from home. These guys already took a lunch break and they're back and so you're going to hear them every now and then. Anyway lunch … I had lunch with Bill D'Alessandro. He lives in Charlotte … I live just north of Charlotte a couple of months ago and we were talking … Bill just got married and we were talking about the honeymoon and he said yeah no it was great because I hardly checked in. I was gone for two weeks and I hardly checked in at all. And then he goes back when I was a digital nomad I went to the same country, the same beach, but I felt like I had to work all the time because it was me and me only. I had to tell my VAs what to do and I had to do certain things every day. On this vacation I turned it all off because I had good quality people working for me, running my business while I was away on my honeymoon and I was making money. And it just sort of clicked. Like you said, you just said grown up right? And that's really… I mean it is what it is but you don't mean it to be and I don't mean it to be offensive to those that choose not to run a business that way. I've sold many businesses where there's one owner operator and that's it doing his thing. Look at that you can actually see the people power washing in my window in the background. Mark: You know what it looks like? It looks like a scene from Oceans 12 where the guys on the background can really be is just setting up a big con on you Joe. You better look out. I hope you did a background check on these guys. Joe: It's hilarious they actually have giant trash bags on and just the holes cut out for the sleeves. And literally, I've got a house … the entire house right now they're choosing to do right in front of my office in the windows outside. So if you want to see it and see the trash bag folks go to the actual video instead of just listening to the audio. Mark: And we'll make sure we put this one video up; at least this clip. Joe: At least this clip. Anyway, it just sort of … it was an epiphany with … Bill has an interesting story. I first learned about him back in 2015 in Savannah at the eCommerceFuel event and Darren was there with us; Darren Harden a former broker at Quiet Light. [inaudible 00:04:19.8] Joe you got to meet this guy he's raised like 20 million dollars and he's building a portfolio of e-commerce companies. I don't know if that dollar amount was right. I didn't feel the need to ask but I got a tour of Bill's facility down there in Charlotte. He's got an actual warehouse. He ships it all himself. He's got rack space, he's got staff, he's got warehouse employees that he pays really well and they found ways to make him more money by cutting costs. And that's really what this is all about, it doesn't make sense to outsource all of this stuff two of 3PL, two VAs or does it make more sense for you in your business to bring it out in-house and run it and go to work every day, take vacations and not worry about it because you've got good people in place to do the job for you. Mark: Yeah, he talked on this topic if I remember right at eCommerceFuel last year and let's give a shout out to Andrew Youderian from eCommerceFuel Live. Anybody that is in e-commerce I always recommend, take a look at eCommerceFuel as a community to join. That's a fantastic community. But he gave this talk in eCommerceFuel Live and I remember being struck by it because it was something that we haven't been hearing. And I'm going to double down on what you said, Joe, if you choose that lifestyle sort of business which was the business where you are running just remotely and maybe not four hours but maybe eight hours a week that's a really good and viable option as well. I think a lot depends on your personal priorities but sometimes we'd look down at those businesses that require an office and going in and having employees and stuff like that. It is a really good alternative as well for a lot of people. I'm interested to listen to this one. Again hear what Bill has to say about this and kind of how he made that transition over to a fully staffed business. Joe: I'll tell you right now there's no doubt we'll have Bill back on some day and we'll be talking about his 50, 60, 70 million dollar exit because that's the path that he's going down. Now quickly before we go to that Mark we talked about eCommerceFuel, we talked about Rhodium, right now I'll just name three or four other conferences that we're going to and then we'll go right to the podcast. Mark: We can actually name them. So Prosper Show is coming up if you do anything with Amazon … that's in March and if you do anything with Amazon go to Prosper Show for sure. We're going to have a presence at T&C at Traffic & Conversion. Joe: San Diego in February. Mark: That's right and then we're going to be doing Blue Ribbon Mastermind with Ezra Firestone; an awesome marketer. Everybody knows who Ezra is. We're going to be at that event as well. Joe: Miami in January, there's one more in there right? Mark: Capitalism.com absolutely … Ryan Moran's conference. We're going to be there and I'm looking forward to that as well. That's in Texas right? Joe: Yes, it's going to be in Dallas. So we've had Ryan on, we've had Ezra on, we've had [inaudible 00:07:01.8] on, we've had James on; we've had them all on. They're great folks and we'll be at each of those conferences and we'd love to get together with you guys for dinner, for an event that we might put on, something along those lines. Please let us know if you're going to go to those conferences so we can connect. Mark: Sounds great. Joe: All right, off to the podcast. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and on today's podcast, I've got Bill D'Alessandro. A lot of folks from eCommerceFuel know Bill very well. Bill is from the Charlotte area right here in North Carolina and owns a portfolio of e-commerce sites and is a regular guest on the eCommerceFuel podcast. Bill, how are you today? Bill: Doing well Joe. Good to see you, man. Joe: You too man, you too. So I saw you a couple of months ago, I got a nice tour of the warehouse and you're moving to a much much bigger one. And we talked a little bit about your experience and what you've gone through over the last several years but I want you to tell the folks that are listening who you are and what you do and give them a little bit of background. So we can start with that and then we'll go from there. Bill: Yeah, sure. So for the folks that don't know me … Hi, my name is Bill D'Alessandro. I'm the CEO and founder of Elements Brands. Elements Brands is a portfolio of consumer products brands. We focus on what we call household goods and personal care. So that's everything from sunscreen, shampoo, body lotion, lip balm, laundry detergent; all sorts of things like that. We own nine brands today and are under LOI to acquire a 10th. I started life as sort of your classic 4-hour workweek digital nomad entrepreneur but since then the business has evolved and I've kind of made a conscious choice. And now we're located … Elements Brands is located in Charlotte, North Carolina. We have as of this day of recording 22 full time employees and growing. And as Joe mentioned we are moving into a new 51,000 square foot office/warehouse kind of facility. So it's a far cry from my early digital nomad days. Joe: Yeah, it's definitely a far cry but one of the things that was interesting is that you kind of have more freedom in terms of when you want to take off from work. You can take off, turn your phone off and you've got a great staff there. So let's talk a little bit about that. I want to talk a little first though Bill about how you managed to build a portfolio of nine brands and you've got one under LOI. Did you start with one small brand and kept adding them on? Did you raise some funds? Did you go to family and friends? How did that work out for you? What was your process? Bill: Yeah. So I started the 1st brand in 2010. I got it up to low hundreds of thousands of revenue; basically just enough to fund my digital nomad lifestyle. And at that point … you know I kind of did that for a while, and I realized that as I wrote on my blog Thailand will not make you happy. And I realize that it was fun but you go to Thailand, you sit on the beach and you're still you. You're sitting with you on the beach and all of your hopes, dreams, aspirations, problems, demons; all those things come with you to Thailand. And I also felt like I was kind of wasting my potential. So I thought all right how do I make this thing a lot bigger? And I come from an investment banking and M&A background so my thinking was I know how to run an e-commerce brand, I also know there are a bunch of people out there selling e-commerce brands, why don't I go buy … I mean roll them up onto a single platform. So that led to our 1st acquisition in 2013 for which I basically used my entire life savings at the time and borrowed some money. And we bought that company and then in 2015 basically based on cash flow from the 1st one and we bought the 2nd one in 2015. And then we bought two in 2016. Then we bought another one in 2017. And then as I mentioned we'll do another acquisition this year. So … and then also I was fortunate enough doing work with you to sell one of my other distracting side businesses too so I can focus on Elements Brands full time. Joe: Yeah. You know it's funny because I don't think we've mentioned that at all when we had lunch a few weeks ago. You've built these brands and we have a relationship … Quiet Light Brokerage is a business brokerage firm but we haven't sold any of these to you. You've sourced most of these deals on your own through building networks and buying smaller troubled brands and turning them around directly for the most case wouldn't you say? Bill: Yeah for the most part we … you're always number one in my heart Joe but we do talk occasionally with some other brokers who shall not be named. And we also have fulltime staff here at Elements that is going out calling brands all the time to see if they're interested in selling and to see if Elements Brands would be a good home for them. I have a guy and he's an ex private equity guy and he spends his all day every day talking to new brands. Joe: So let me say right now, anybody that's listening, you can go to ElementsBrands.com and find Bill and his staff. If you've got a household brand of … what size Bill? Does it matter what size if they've got something that might be a good fit do you think they should reach it out to you? Bill: Yes, so we look at basically between half a million to a million in revenue in the low end to probably about 10 million on revenue on the high end. Joe: Got you. Now if you want to save Bill the trouble call me and I'll put together a great package and then I'll call Bill. Bill: Exactly which we actually love Joe. Because on a lot of times when the seller does have a broker, it makes the whole thing go a lot more smoothly so call Joe first. Joe: The guys at 101 commerce, RJ Jalichandra from 101, they're buying literally 101 FBA businesses. He said the same thing on a panel of buyers a couple of months ago at the Brand Builders Summit. He said look we've done this, we've done a lot, we'd prefer to work with a broker because all the vetting is done, the package is put together. It makes our buying process much smoother and much quicker. So please go with a broker and they're going to choose a select few that they'll work with and that's it. It does make it quicker for you guys for sure. Why don't we talk about a little bit of the advantages of a guy like yourself who I have to classify as a grown up in a sense. And I say that in the nicest possible way in putting myself down because I'm sitting here in my home office and I have no employees. None of us do at Quiet Light. We're all independent contractors brokering from different parts of the country in some cases we all live here talking to Bryan. He's usually in a different location. You, on the other hand, you've got 21, 22 employees that you are responsible for. You have a warehouse, you have offices. You are building a real business that maybe someday components of it will be sold off to private equity or the entire thing will be. How was that choice other than you just saying you're limiting your potential by not doing it, how has that choice come to and what has it been like for your lifestyle as opposed to that 4-hour workweek that you started off with. Bill: Yeah so it was very intentional. I'm sitting here in my office right now and to my left here are 22 folks. I've just got my door closed in recording with you but I come in every day. I'm in typically before nine o'clock and I leave at six-ish. I take lunch. I only work about a mile off from my house. I kind of … the realization came to me while I was doing the digital nomad thing that one of the most fulfilling things in life is working on the hard things with smart people. And you know just as humans we love to solve hard challenges and it's really rewarding to succeed with other people. And I realize that as a digital nomad a lot of the times I was working with VAs or contractors who were basically just pictures on Upwork profiles to simplify but I didn't really have a relationship with these people and they … even if I had a full time VA I couldn't grab a beer with them after work. And frankly when you're hiring VAs oftentimes you're operating on a shoestring and there's a language barrier and you're generally … and I will generalize here but I will say if you are operating a whole business on VAs and you may love your VAs but there's a whole other level of caliber of employee that is out there that you've closed yourself off to because you're not willing to give them a W2 and health insurance and their office that they're meant to. A lot of really really brilliant people want that. Joe: Can you give an example of that? I know that we talked a little bit about your warehouse workers and how you pay them higher than average, there's no turnover and they find ways to save you money and increase your profit. Can you give an example of maybe what we talked about there? I don't remember the specific details … a thing to do with honestly this cardboard boxes so- Bill: Yeah. Joe: [inaudible 00:15:12.13] I might have tuned out a little but the overall picture was you took care of your people and you paid them well. They appreciated it and I think that they saved you a fair amount of money just by being loyal to you. Bill: Yeah so Joe what you're referring to is we do all of our own warehouse and logistic. So instead of using a 3PL, we've got a warehouse and we've got a crew here that packs boxes. We ship them out of here. And if I talk to other e-commerce entrepreneurs either A. they outsourced their 3PL and complain about how much their 3PL sucks. Or they operate their own warehouse and complain about turnover and how hard it is to manage a warehouse. So going into it we pay our folks here in the warehouse easily 30 to 40 or more percent more than the minimum wage that they can get somewhere else. And occasionally we bring temps in and they go oh my God for less money I was putting chickens in bags in an unconditioned warehouse last week this is amazing. And we've had … unfortunate to say because we pay well we have had zero turnovers in our warehouse. And our warehouse crew they're not packing Elements Brands orders in between packing other companies orders. So they're thinking about our problems all day. And we had our warehouse manager, she came to me and said I've been looking at the way all the laundry detergent comes in on pallets and I think it's not optimal. If we switch from eight packs to 12 packs I can fit X% more bags on a pallet and stack it higher and use more the footprint and it's going to save us 20 plus percent shipping per bag. And we did it and we saved five figures because of that. And a 3PL would never do that for you or a VA that is not physically present could never see that stuff and even notice it. What I love about having employees is having people that think about Elements Brands all day every day. Like they think about it in the shower, think about it on their commute to work, like it's the thing that they do. It's their job and their career and they want to be good at it so I just love it a lot. Joe: So by taking care of them and putting a good environment together, a good employment package for them what does it do for you and the other folks that are focused on building the brands and building a larger portfolio? Are you able to put more focus on that and less nitty gritty on some of the other things? Bill: Yeah I mean I at this point … so I just went on my honeymoon that for two weeks we went ironically to Thailand. Joe: You sat on the beach but you weren't alone, that's good. Bill: Yeah so I'm not alone I was [inaudible 00:17:39.6] yeah thanks. And while I was there you know I was halfway around the world and spotty cell service and I was basically fully disconnected and the team ran the business in a fully … to use a digital nomad term fully automated way. But it's not automated because I've got 22 people that come in here and they want to be good at their jobs. And they've got their own managers who come in to work every day and see them and if they don't come and there's … everybody says hey where are you I didn't see you today, is your stock end gone? So for me, I found that when I was working with VAs because there is no senior person who the buck stops with, that person is you. You can never really unplug. You might be able to travel or you might be able to unplug for a week but when you unplug for a week everything kind of stops; like nothing moves forward. It might be in stasis but nothing moves forward. So when I was gone for two weeks I came back and we had launched the targeting marketing campaigns and we wrote a new product and it had progressed pipe on. Stuff actually moves forward without me because we've got senior people with accountability and a bonus structure that incentivizes them. As such they come into work every day without me. So I think in a way being really committed and put down some roots and commit to not just being in one place but also commit to your people they commit back to you and it lets you have even more freedom than if you pursued this digital nomad thing hardcore. Joe: And the reality is that it's not just the digital nomad thing where you're having more freedom because you're not doing that. You can disconnect and recuperate on your honeymoon in Thailand on the beach for instance. But the beautiful thing is that while you are away you're not stressed about it and other people are working hard to make money for you. Bill: Yeah. Joe: They're getting paid for it and getting paid well for but that's really truly a beautiful thing. So you have 21, 22 people on staff. That can be one of the hardest things to do; it's to find good people. Do you have any secrets or tips on your process on how to find the right people and your interview process or techniques or just vetting them in getting to the cream of the crop? Bill: Yeah so as you alluded to hiring is the most important thing in business. And the more people I hire the more I realize how critical it is. Like the bigger, we get every time we hire somebody if I introduce one toxic person or one slacker into this group it poisons the whole well. So it gets harder and harder to get a job here as we get bigger and bigger which I don't know if I would get hired at my own company today. So we do a series of written application with there are some gotchas in there where you have to follow directions extremely precisely and if you don't you are disqualified. If you make it through the written application without stepping in it you get a phone screen. I try to keep those phone screens to 15, 20 minutes and during that time what I'm trying to figure out is A. do you really want this job or do you just apply to everything on the internet, B. are your salary expectations in line with what we intend to pay for this job, and C. are you somebody just off the top that I think has a positive personality that I want to work with. And you can do that in 15, 20 minutes if you would cut out the small talk; if you get right to it. Joe: And are you making every hiring decision or do you do the initial vetting or somebody else does it? Bill: So it used to be that I did everything. Now where at a point where my employees do the written application, phone screen, and the next bit of the process is a written assignment where it will say like in the case of if we're hiring somebody to work on Amazon we'll say here's one of our Asense what do you think could be improved? No length limit, go and we'll see when you get back. Or if we're hiring a graphic designer we'll say something like make an info graphic about go … something anybody can do, something that's pretty broad but you're going to know if somebody is a good graphic designer based on the effort that they put in and then the quality of that work output. And make sure homework assignments are good we typically bring in two to four for in person interviews and I sit in on the in person interview. And if you do well in the in person interview you're hired. And my message to the team is I'm never going to tell you we have … I'm never going to force you to hire someone you don't want to work with but I might veto somebody that I don't think is right for the company. Joe: Okay, so you get that certain veto power for sure. If they're not reporting directly to you, you let others make the decisions. Bill: Well up to the final interview, yes. Joe: Up to the final interview; got you. So if you're sitting with a group of e-commerce entrepreneurs that have physical products are you generally advocating bringing on staff and having your own warehouse as opposed to outsourcing or are you simply saying it's got to be right for you and you got to do what's right for your situation? Bill: Different models are good for different people. I think the … what I see myself as doing and the model that I've become convinced is very good in a lot of situations and people don't fully give a fair shape to is hiring full time employees and not hiring gig based contractors. And those full time employees … I think it's awesome if they're in the same physical location as you but even if they're not, if they're full time and you have video with them one on one every day and you create this personal relationship such that they don't have any other clients and such that they begin to build up a confidence about your business so you don't have to explain to them the task you want done at the beginning of every task. You want to build up this surf of confidence where they just know about your business and you can say hey do that and so much as widen it because they already work for you. So what I tend to advocate for is people really want to create this web of outsourcers or gig based people, I can say find a person … like you probably live in a town or near a town of a sizable amount of people and sizeable would be 100,000 or 200,000. Try to find somebody … consider finding somebody locally that's talented that's not a bottom of the barrel price type of person. Find a quality person locally and it will unlock you as a CEO because your time is way too valuable to be spent typing into at a box on Upwork in describing to someone how they should scrape locations from a website that you should not be doing that. So if you're willing to pay somebody $50,000 a year which if you're in the in the freelance world they're like holy crap it is like [inaudible 00:23:49.8] the money, right? But $50,000 a year buys you a college educated American in your town likely or less even who is probably pretty smart and got a good GPA. And he will come in every day and you can teach them. That's a good requirement. Joe: And be very very well. What about finding experts in certain areas that may not be available in your town? If you want to outsource your Facebook advertising and your Google advertising are you training and doing that in-house and putting them through courses and programs or are you hiring agencies to do that type of work? Bill: Yeah, so we … the answer is both with the preference for hiring and training. So when we're absolutely pinched we use agencies but we have hired and trained a bunch of people in Amazon specifically. I've put people through courses on Amazon. I put people through courses on Facebook ads. I put people through courses on YouTube because if you hire a smart person who did well in school you just say guess what this is graduate degree. I'm going to spend a couple thousand dollars, I'm going to put you through these courses, and I'm going to train you then on the fly. You're going to do … you're going to learn for 4 hours in the course and you're going to learn from the person you report to for 4 hours a day and before you know it you're up the curve in a month, maybe two. I find about two months is before is the curve until someone can be dangerous. Joe: Is there any particular online programs and courses that you always dwell that you go to? Bill: I've used Ezra's courses a fair bit; Ezra Firestone. I've used the guys at amazing.com, they operate a 40 bucks a month kind of subscription and there's a bunch of courses in there so I picked out a few. I've used the copyrighting course by [inaudible 00:25:29.4] for some people to just kind of learn and write e-commerce copy that converts. Those are ones that come to mind. Joe: Yeah for the folks that are- Bill: I basically look- Joe: I'm sorry Ezra's course is the Smart Marketer. We sat Ezra on the podcast. We actually just had a podcast go off, it will be a few weeks back once this airs with Bret Curry who created another course with Ezra on monetizing YouTube; smartmarketer.com you can find a lot of great courses there. I'm sorry, continue. Bill: There are others but if you invest a couple of thousand dollars in hiring someone you can create talent that you can't find in almost any city. I mean we live in this world where there is incredible amount of information available on the Internet in courses and it's relatively cheap. I mean a few grand you can … if you … people complain oh there's no Amazon expert, you can't hire them anywhere. Well, you can you should train them though. Joe: I love what you just said; you can create talent that you can't find by spending a couple thousand dollars on a course and finding the right person to go through it essentially getting their graduate degree. And you know what it does? It makes them employable for the rest of their life either with you or remotely if they decide to move on some day or maybe they'll become an entrepreneur themselves. That last point though, become an entrepreneur themselves, what do you do if anything in regards to non-competes? Because you're teaching a lot of people how to compete with you and they could step out of Elements Brands and perhaps go and launch their own business that might be competing with similar products. Do you have NDAs in place when you hire people? Bill: Yup, we do. We have non-competes and NDAs. I view it as once I train them and make them great it's now my responsibility to make sure they want to keep working for me. I want to give them access to nine soon to be 10 brands that they can work on. I mean I'm sure all the entrepreneurs out there listening remember you're like God I read all these articles but I can't do AB testing when I have 100 hits a week. Well I can teach them how to AB testing on a site that has 100 hits a minute. And you can do … pull in big leverage is just fun. So I got to make sure that they're having fun with me. And if somebody wants to go out and do their own thing I mean at this point nobody is running the whole business. My marketing folks are running marketing, they have no idea how the warehouse works. They have no idea how supply chain works. So it's harder than you would think for some of your employees to kind of see the whole business. And also … and this is the thing that I've really come to realize, I used to be of this mind that entrepreneurship is for everyone and everyone should be an entrepreneur and it is the best thing you could possibly do with your life. And I've started to realize that that's not true. There are a ton of people out there that don't want any part of this entrepreneurship thing and think it's stressful and uncertain and lonely and all these and they're just not cut … I don't even want to say they're not cut out for it. I'm saying their personality type is not fulfilled by it. So there's lots of really bright excellent people out there that are not entrepreneurs and they want to be employees and they want to be employed by a great company. And sometimes I interview people that I think they're to entrepreneurial and it makes them not a good fit. Joe: Right. And you know just to summarize everything I think you've done just that Bill, you've sort of … you're pulling big levers but you've checked all the boxes I think to someday have a sizable exit if you ever choose to do that. It could be 40, 50 years from now. It will be the one in buffet of the e-commerce world right there at Charlotte, North Carolina. But you're building amazing brands. You're really focused on building brands with great quality products and you're taking control of the whole process from beginning to end from the marketing to the fulfillment of it and you're taking care of your people. You're creating a local base of people that are going to focus on and think of your company first and helping building more value for the company, profits for the company that I have the feeling you go ahead and pay them back for through better facilities and more vacation time and bonuses and benefits and all that type of thing. You seem like a great guy to work for. If I ever decide to move on I might just try to fill up one of those applications but I think you'll probably stump me and I'll get thrown into the trash. Bill: We got a room in [inaudible 00:29:34.9] Joe. Joe: I won't pass. I won't pass, I know for sure. I'll just come down and have lunch with you instead. Bill, listen I know you've got to jump to another call. I appreciate your time thanks for sharing your story, your success on building a great brand, company environment, and not living that digital nomad lifestyle and creating more freedom for yourself. Hopefully, the folks will take some nuggets from this and do that as well. Bill: Yeah thanks for having me on Joe. Good to see you, man. Joe: Talk to you soon.   Links and Resources: Element Brands Bill's Blog Bill's Twitter Upcoming Quiet Light e-commerce conference attendance: Prosper Show T & C Summit Blue Ribbon Mastermind CapCom Conference

In any systematic trading strategy choosing the right combination of parameters for your model or approach is critical. So today, I wanted to share a valuable takeaway from a conversation with Bill Dreiss, where we discuss his thoughts, experience and approach to identifying parameter sets which I think you will find to be rather different to most managers.  Bill and I discussed this as well as many other super interesting aspects of trading from his 40+ year career and I think these lessons will benefit you immensely.  If you want to listen to the full podcast episode then just click here.  click here Identifying the right Parameter Set for Risk Management Bill:  The big trend followers, and certainly trend following dominates the CTA space, you’d think they’d all just be cannibalizing themselves. I think this gets back to what I was saying, that I’m a technical trader that believes in fundamentals. So there’s a world out there that can’t be controlled or that’s beyond the reach of market psychology or market methodology and I think that world is subject to forces - generally longer term forces - that are pretty much universal and timeless.     Niels:  Human behavior, yeah.  Bill:  That go back in history as far as you want to go and that will go into the future as far.  Niels:  You know, I agree with all that, Bill, and it’s interesting because there’s obviously still so much resistance, it’s fair to say, by a lot of people, certainly on the investor side, to embrace this and you always have to justify why trend following works. Even if it has a year or two of under average performance then it’s their case for why it has stopped working and it’s never going to work again. So certain things don’t change.  I want to go back also to another point which I think differentiates you a lot compared to the managers that we see out there. Maybe you can explain more that where I’m going with this is that I know that you, or at least part of your system is not looking at parameters, meaning you’re not trying to optimize a certain parameter set while, if you use moving averages, or price breakout, whatever it might be, clearly a big part of the research is really identifying the right parameter sets to use. Explain to me about that and why you’ve chosen this way of looking at it.  Bill:  Well, of course the idea of data fitting has been the nemesis of anyone who’s tried to design systems. So one of the attractions to the fractal approach was that you’re dealing again with very fundamental patterns, but you’re dealing with patterns as opposed to numbers. You’re dealing with pictures instead of the numerical approach. So in the first place, if you adjust the algorithm the way I’ve described it, is not a matter of optimizing on any kind of numerical parameters. It’s a matter of setting up a certain structure and then, in a sense, graphically utilizing that structure to translate that into patterns.   "... went through and tried all the different possibilities and picked out the best one."   Now there’s certainly data fitting in the sense that you’re fitting what patterns that you think are significant versus those that you don’t. You’ve obviously got to have some choice there. For instance, trading weekly charts versus daily charts, that’s obviously a parameter that you’ve selected. But these might be numerical parameters but they’ve been selected on a qualitative criterion. They haven’t been selected because I went through and tried all the different possibilities and picked out the best one. It was a much broader type of judgement that was made.   So the advantage, again is that, in terms of designing a system, you’re not really focusing. You’re coming into it with an analysis that’s based upon, shall we say, qualitative judgements about how the markets work and so on and so forth. Then that’s implemented more or less directly without having to go through a lot of optimization, testing,

Imagine co-creating one of the greatest superheroes of all time, and never getting credit for it. Imagine designing his gear, building his rouge's gallery and even writing his origin, only to have someone else take the credit for decades. Such was the case of Bill Finger, the man who co-created Batman in 1939, only to have his business partner Bob Kane take sole credit. Bob became and celebrity and Bill? Well you have to listen to our review of the Hulu documentary "Batman & Bill" which details the Bill Finger Fiasco in a way that is full of twists, turns, and even a happy ending! If you can, please leave us a review on ITunes so we can grow our audience and grow as podcasters! Rate us where ever podcasts are found. Don't forget to check out our merchandise! All episodes of Major Issues are brought to you by ComicBook Clique, the one stop for the latest and greatest things to come to comic books and comic book media. Send us feedback at ComicBookClique@Gmail.com! You Are Worthy!  ComicBook Clique Facebook ComicBook Clique on Instagram ComicBook Clique on YouTube Major Issues on Twitter Shop ComicBook Clique

Bill Bodine is a graduate of the soon to be University of Lynchburg with both undergraduate and graduate degrees there.  Much of his career was spent in healthcare, but he is now the President and CEO of the Greater Lynchburg Community Foundation, which was formed in 1972 and last year provided grants to local nonprofits and scholarships totaling just under $1.7 million.   The Interview Transcript   Hugh Ballou: Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. This is Hugh Ballou. My guest today is a dear friend of mine who I have known for less than a year because I have been in Lynchburg, Virginia for less than a year. He was one of the first people I met at a rotary breakfast. Bill Bodine. He runs an organization that is now known as the Lynchburg Community Foundation. Bill Bodine, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Bill Bodine: Glad to be here. Appreciate it. Hugh:And there are people who are watching it on video and listening to the podcast. I like to start out these sessions by asking my guest to tell us about themselves, your journey. How did you end up doing this really important work that you do? Bill:Mostly luck, Hugh. I'm originally from New Jersey. I ended up in Lynchburg via Lynchburg College, which in two weeks will be the University of Lynchburg. I didn't necessarily intend to stay, but I got a job working in health care right out of college. The longer I was here, the more I liked it. I have been a resident of Lynchburg now for about 40 years. I know I don't look nearly that old. Hugh:You don't. Bill:It's true. It's true. As far as getting into fundraising, I spent most of my career in health care. I was really looking for something that I could be more excited about and feel like I was making a real difference and helping the community. I have served on several boards. It was important to me to find something that was more service-oriented. I luckily saw that at the time, the Greater Lynchburg Community Trust was looking for a president and CEO because my predecessor was retiring. I went after the job and three years ago, they gave it to me. I have loved that. It's been a little bit of a circuitous journey, but I finally figured out what I want to be when I grow up. Hugh:Oh, I don't think men ever grow up. Bill:I don't know if I ever will, but at least I figured out what I want to be. It's been really enjoyable. Hugh:And you and I both drive convertibles. Bill:We do. We do. I have a little Miata that I try not to get in trouble with. Not driving it today because it's too darn hot with the top down. Hugh:It's 97 in Lynchburg. Bill:I know it's crazy. Next time it cools down, I'll be in it. Hugh:Probably had the remarks about, “Oh, it's a mid-life crisis.” Bill:That would be true if I was in midlife. Hugh:It's too late. Bill:A late-life crisis. More accurately. I have always enjoyed driving cars, and it's a fun car to drive. I know your Mustang is a lot of fun. Hugh:It is fun. It's fun to go slow. Bill:It's fun. I'm not in a hurry. I just enjoy the journey. Hugh:It takes getting some age on. Also, the wisdom of leadership is impacted by our journey and our age. You came into this leadership position, I don't think by dumb luck. I think people looked at you and said, “Oh, this guy can do it.” From what I've heard from people, you have stepped up to that plate. Bill:I feel like things are going well. I think the things that I bring to it are I really enjoy people. I enjoy talking with people. I have a passion for the mission of the organization. If you have that, you are more than halfway toward doing what you really need to do. I have a great story to tell, and I enjoy telling it. People are willing to listen. That's been nice. Hugh:What does leadership mean? You lead an organization that leads and supports leaders of organizations. There is no real membership. Bill:There is no membership. My leadership stems from the fact that we touched 175 nonprofit organizations last year alone in terms of providing grant money. I get to interact with a lot of other leaders. I try to help them fine-tune their grant application process. I also try to pay attention to what the needs of the community are. How can we work together, and how can we best serve others? The leadership part of it comes from being in a chair that touches a lot of other leaders in terms of the grants and trying to make this a better community in any way we can. That's just a byproduct of the job, but I enjoy that, too. Hugh:I picked up something. You just revealed our topic today: grants, and how to do a better job of applying for grants. You slipped in something there, and I'm going to pull it out. You work with people so they do a better job. People just don't know how to apply for grants mostly. Bill:It's all over the board, Hugh. Some people are really good at it and have a lot of experience doing it. Quite honestly, some of the smaller nonprofits that we work with, that's not what people are trained to do or have done or have a lot of time to do. A lot of the smaller nonprofits are making things work with as few staff as they can and as little resources as they can. What I've found is that it's helpful to work with people and speak with them about fine-tuning their grant. What I want to do is give them the best opportunity for success. Our foundation is not there to hold onto money. Our foundation is there to give that money away according to our donors' wishes. The better job I can do helping people access those funds means I do a better job for our donors. That's really what it's about. Hugh:That's amazing. I don't think everybody understands that. This is a good point to make. I posted on the web page some of the questions we're going to address that came from you because you know what you're talking about. Bill:Maybe. Depends on who you ask. Hugh:Part of my career I served megachurches. I was in the interview process in the five biggest megachurches at the same time. Nobody knew what questions to ask. That was amazing. I pretty much had to provide my own questions. Bill:It helps things go smoother if we have an idea of what we're going to talk about. Hugh:Or to get to the bottom line. What is it we need to know about this? Let's start at the top. If I'm going to make a grant request- I run a 501(c)3. It's a foundation. I give away services. I don't give away money. I help people leverage what they have and attract money. Part of my work could conceivably be preparing people to do this process. What I tell my nonprofits is that funders are gonna look at the impact of your work, what results it will create. I want to check my accuracy. If we give you this money, what results will it produce? They will also look at your team. Can they really implement it? Are those the factors that are high? Bill: Those are the big deal. That is the real meat and potatoes of it. You could actually go back to a baseline. One of the first things I would tell people is if you are going to apply for a grant, make sure you review what exactly the grantor is looking for in terms of information. It surprises me occasionally how many applications we get that are incomplete because people have not thoroughly read what it is we are asking for. We get grant applications that come in without a list of the board of directors, which is one of the things we ask for. I would encourage people at the very baseline of it to read very carefully what the requirements are for the grant application, and make sure you include all that information. That seems basic and elementary, but it surprises me how many of them we get that are not fully completed. First and foremost, make sure you understand what that grantor is looking for and what their requirements are in applying for them. Make sure it's complete because it's a little bit like when you write your resume, make sure you spell things correctly. First impressions are important. That is maybe the first step. But you're absolutely right. We like to know first of all what do you want the money for, and how is that going to help my community be a better place? How is that going to satisfy the wishes of the donors who have given us the money in the first place? First and foremost, I am bound by their wishes and their desires. My responsibility is to use the money that our donors have provided as wisely as possible and as closely to their various intents as possible. Hugh: I want to introduce you to somebody who got stuck on the viewer side of this, who is my co-host. He has been AWOL here. Russell David Dennis is joining us in this podcast from Denver, Colorado. I thought you were maybe having technical difficulty today. Russell showed up a year and a half ago and was very consistent with this. Russell is one of our WayFinders. It is our antidote to a consultant. It's a WayFinder. We guide you; we don't tell you what to do. We help you define what you're going to do. Russell has been through the whole methodology of SynerVision, and he is now one of our bonafide WayFinders. I made him co-host. He outshines me many times. I like to say I pale in comparison. I've used that line. Russell, welcome. You're muted. Russell Dennis: Greetings. I had to turn to my tablet. My computer has been loading updates all morning, and it doesn't seem to want to finish. Hugh: Welcome to the party. I already warned him that my co-host has the zingers of the questions. He is braced for ya. I'm getting chats from across the screen. Russell, we're talking about grants today and what makes a good grant request. So far, Bill has validated our premise that we need to have worthy goals in terms of what difference we are going to make, and people on board to do that. Bill, people maybe do read the requirements. You think they just forget? Or they weren't careful? I guess you go back to people and resubmit. Bill: We do. We review all the applications. Before we put them in front of our distribution committee, we review them for completeness and accuracy. We try to track down questions we know they might ask. But yeah, it's hard to know the reasons, Hugh, why people don't always include everything. Sometimes they don't have the information, and sometimes they forget, and sometimes they are just flustered by the process and don't think it through well enough. Whatever the reasons, again, what we want to do is help people be as successful as possible. I just throw that out there as step one. Make sure you read the requirements and do your best to fulfill them. If you have a question or problem, call us, or call whomever you are applying to and ask for their help. Hugh: Are there community foundations in every area in the country? Bill: Just about. When the Greater Lynchburg Community Foundation was formed in 1972, there were probably about 30 community foundations nationally. We know from the Council of Foundations in Washington that in 1975, there were only 50. So we were formed in ‘72. There are now over 850. So they are all over the place now. A community foundation is a little different from family foundations or corporate foundations. Often family foundations and corporate foundations have more specific purposes. Ours is probably more general. We have more general purposes than a lot of other foundations. We cover the waterfront. As I mentioned before, we gave grants to 175 nonprofits in Lynchburg and the four surrounding counties last year alone. We will support basic human needs, the arts, historic preservation, the environment, all kinds of things. Most foundations you'll find have a little bit narrower focus. That's true for hospital foundations, the United Way for example. All of them do fantastic work. But our reach is a little broader. For some people, that fills in. Hugh: It fills in some gaps I would imagine. Bill: Yeah, it does. We have a flexibility that appeals to people. The other thing is community foundations are intended to be forever. We are perpetual. The appeal we have for people is that you can set up a fund, name it after your grandmother or whomever you want, and it will be here long after you're gone and probably after your children are gone. It leaves a legacy. That is one of the appeals to community foundations. Hugh: I found more and more people who are interested in the legacy component. They are the instigator. They start this thing. But they are not going to be around forever. We want to have impact that goes on after our lifetime. There is a value. When they get money and enough money that they put it under management, you assist with that. Bill: Our purpose is to grow the fund and to distribute monies annually or more often than that sometimes from that fund, but continue to grow it so it continues to expand and lasts as long as the world lasts is the idea. People like that. Hugh: I'm hearing some fundamental principles. One, which we talked around, is pick up the phone and call. I don't think people do that who are applying for grants. Maybe not all foundations are equally as successful as yours. Bill:Well, I don't know about that. I haven't worked at other foundations. I've talked to some colleagues. I think we are all generally here for the same purpose, which is to help people out and help the community be as seamless as possible. I really love it when someone calls me and says, “Hey, can I talk to you about this grant? I've been thinking about this proposal. Can you help me fine-tune it a little bit?” I do a lot of that. Hugh:Part of our due diligence, and Russell worked 11 years on an Indian reservation and he did grants, he comes up with another experience. Part of our job is to do our due diligence to learn about the grantor. What is the purpose of the grant? What requirements are there? Will what we want funded match up with what you want to fund? And spell the name right. Bill:Sure. We get applications that are for things we can't do. If an organization is renting a building, and they come to us and ask for renovations to that building, that is something we really won't do because we don't pay for renovations to a building that is not owned by the organization. We only provide money to nonprofits, and we don't want to improve a building for a landlord. We want to help that organization. I try to guide people not to do those kinds of things. We typically don't like to pay operating costs such as salaries. We need to hire a new person and we need this for a salary. We'd rather not do that. We'd rather put our donors' money toward programs, resources that go directly to help people, and that sort of thing. That is part of the guidance I try to provide. I don't want people to waste their time or our time with an application that I know is just not going to perform. Hugh:One of the deficits we see often is that there is an organization trying to fly by tradition and history by the seat of their pants without a strategy. By the way, Russell, he is a fellow musician. He is an actor/musician. He has been a professional production for the past couple of weeks, so he far exceeds my capabilities. We need a map. What do you sing when? When do you go off stage? When do you go on stage? When do the trumpets play? The way we think is there is a core map for where we're going and how we're going to get there and what kind of impact we're going to have. That gives us substance for our thinking. When people are looking at funding, if there is a deficit in leadership or lack of strategy, are those pieces what we might call capacity-building? Are there capacity-building grants for them to up their game so to speak? Bill:There are. There certainly are. For example, let's say somebody needs new computer equipment. We have helped people with that before, but only if we understand what they are going to use that computer equipment for. If you apply for a grant saying, “I need new computers,” that's great, and we can assume a certain number of things. What I'd really like to see is “We need these computers because we are putting them in front of school-age children to make them more familiar with technology. It will impact 80 kids.” That kind of detail is very helpful. If it's capacity-building, that's great, but what are you building that capacity for? What's your plan? Anything like that is more helpful than not having that information. Hugh:Russell, you're here and smiling. I'm sure you have some reflections or additional questions for Bill Bodine. You sat on the other side approaching grantors. This stuff, I'm sure, rings true for you, does it not? Russell:Yes, it does. One of the biggest mistakes people make is to contort what they're doing into the requirements of a funding source they are not familiar with. To back up further than that, the number one reason grant proposals are turned down is because they don't follow instructions. If you do that with a government grant, I have sat on grant panels for three years, if they don't follow the instructions, we don't even read it. It goes on the pile. I have seen some bad proposals. It may be a really good one, but because they didn't follow the instructions… There is a strategy to this. The first piece of that is making sure you're talking to the right source. You get these applications that don't fit what you're doing because people will sit and do a shotgun/M50 machine gun approach where they apply to 150 foundations and see what sticks. Bill:Like a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. That's not good. Russell:And it doesn't work. There is a strategy and a process. I have mind-mapped that a bit. I need to build a course on that. I have a couple of courses, but that's one I need to build. I'm working on one for donors, too, at the moment. There is a strategy and there is a process. Everybody that sends you a grant proposal should be calling you on the phone and talking to you just to get clear because the guidelines are out there, the instructions are out there, the requirements are out there, but when you take a few minutes to call, ask about some things. Please do your homework, folks. You don't want to ask people information that is already on the website. What you really want to do is get a feel of what is going on between the lines. Are there some things within this broad category that are really important to the foundation right now? What sort of things have they funded recently? Talk a little bit about your project. I'm thinking about does this fit in what is important to you? If not, what would be more of a fit? Would it be all right if I send you a proposal based on what you're thinking? Hugh:Can I slate that data point for just a second? What he outlined was an exploratory conversation. What does that look like from what you sit? Sorry to interrupt you, Russell. I just wanted to capture that. To me, that was a notable sound bite. Bill:Russell and I are definitely on the same page here in terms of making sure you follow the instructions. But also what he said is really important about knowing what the grantor is and what resonates with them. The other piece is: What is a reasonable amount to ask for? All these foundations have different amounts they are comfortable providing. With our foundation, we gave away $1.7 million last year alone, but it went to 175 different nonprofits. That includes scholarship money for high school students going to college. The amount of money that we have is not as huge as many community foundations might be, and it gets spread out over a large number of agencies. If someone asks us for $100,000 today, that is not something we can really do without taking away from our other responsibilities. I like to sort of give people an idea of what is a reasonable amount to ask for and what we can do. That tends to be helpful, I think. That is another piece. Russell:That is knowing what your source is all about. Community foundations, which is a donor-advised fund because people have purposes, is it always is in the guidelines. You will see a range of funding that is awarded. That breaks things down into pieces, put them in sequence. What can you accomplish with that? It's understanding how much you have and how much you need. Here is the thing that I want to stress to any nonprofits out there who are listening. It's every bit as difficult, if not more, to get this money into the hands of people who will make good use of it than it is to apply for it and get it. Community foundations, a lot of family foundations are running lean. They don't have all the people and tools that they have to try to give technical support to these nonprofits. What a community foundation does is work with smaller organizations. Finding good projects is really difficult. You have to put yourself in their shoes and understand that it's not just difficult for you to get the money, it's difficult for them to find projects to invest in and make sure that money is making the impact it's intended. Bill:That's right, Russell. The biggest sense of responsibility I have is to remember that it's not my money. This was money provided to us by donors, individuals, corporations, and families who have a dream. They really have a desire to do something important with that money. I always have to remember that I need to find things that are worthy of those desires and that I am fulfilling that responsibility. If I don't, I am not only letting those people down, but I am also possibly ruining potential contributions to the foundation to continue that purpose. That is a real responsibility that I feel strongly about. Hugh:While Russell is formulating his difficult question… As you're looking at projects, is there any value for looking at collaboration coming to you, like two, three, or four different entities coming to you and saying they are going to do something together? Bill:Very highly. Again, getting back to that core value of trying to do the most good for the community we possibly can with our ultimately limited resources, any time we can encourage collaboration- One of the things we are in a good position to do in my spot is look for gaps in services and look for overlap. There is a lot of both quite frankly. So trying to get some of the smaller nonprofits to talk to each other, it might be the people providing food or shelter or furniture, or even arts organizations. How can we encourage collaboration with the ultimate purpose being how we can get our dollars to work as efficiently as possible and to do the most good they can do. Yeah, Hugh, that's a vital point. You hit on something really important. We have to try to encourage collaboration. We just started to scratch that surface. Hugh:Maybe there is a place SynerVision could play in facilitating some conversation. Bill:I think so. Hugh:We have to get Russell over here from Denver. Bill:If I lived in Denver, I'm not sure I'd ever leave. Maybe we can get Russell to come because Lynchburg is great, too. Russell:I'm happy to come out there and see what's happening now. I have some friends out in Virginia Beach. I have excuses to come over and poke around and have some fun. The challenge that you talked about of getting people to collaborate, this scarcity thinking that I'm not going to share my resources with anyone, is trying to get people to break out of that way of thinking. I think even something as simple as saying we encourage collaboration on projects that involve collaboration between a number of entities that are different from what is out there will be given extra special consideration so that maybe triggers something in people's minds to say let's talk to other people. There seems to be a lot of resistance to that. I don't know why. More hands makes the work lighter. Bill:I think you're right. I think we need to get at the sources of those feelings. Some people may have a control issue. I need to control this so I can make sure it goes in the direction I want it to go in. Or some of it is just not knowing who the other leaders out there are. If we can identify those reasons, then we can appeal to those people based on whatever their sensitivity is. Maybe we can provide assurances and say, “If we combine with this other group and they provide a service, you can still run that. You can still be in charge of that. Let's say if we can't strengthen your organization by getting some help from over here,” or whatever your trigger is. If we can identify those, then we may have a chance to approach it properly with a chance for success. Hugh:You could apply for one of the grants at SynerVision. You could say, “Hey, we want to fund this project. We are going to ask for SynerVision to group you together and come up with a plan to present this to us.” It would be the work that we do, facilitating people collaborating.  Bill:And the carat for them is these funds are available in terms of the grant. You have to figure out- Just like with donors. What is their hot button? What appeals to them? When you hit resistance from people who maybe are not willing to collaborate, maybe they are in that overused term of being in their own silos—that is the buzz phrase for the year—but whatever it is, and we can figure out what that is and address that, then we maybe have a chance to hook up some of these collaborations. Hugh:It's an exploratory conversation first. Get some knowledge. Part of what I see, and I think you have, too, is people don't understand how to collaborate or how to get it started. We think consensus and collaboration are the same as- What's the other side? Compromise. A lose-lose. A consensus is a win-win. A collaboration is how we do consensus. We come together with a common purpose and a common mind. Actually, we can make the dollars go further because we are making lighter work for everybody. Bill:Sometimes it's just that people are paddling as hard as they can and they don't feel they have time. Who wants to go to another meeting unless you're sure it will be extremely beneficial? Some of it is just battling that. Whatever it is, we ought to be able to figure it out and address it. Hugh:I think it's a new way of effectiveness here. Our initials, people in business invest money for ROI. In nonprofits, people invest money for ROL, return on life. How we get there is ROR, return on relationship. What you're talking about is let's develop a relationship with the funder to know that we're in sync. We were both smiling when you were talking about the intent of the donor. We ask people why they want to serve on the board and what they want done with their money. We don't really go there because we don't think about it. So really, how do we understand the intent of the donor? Russell, you had some time. Come back to Bill here with a goodly framed question. Couldn't get that out. Russell:That is why I left the IRS. People started thinking I was this horrible, scary guy, and that's just not true. Hugh is trying to turn me into this evil quizmaster that will send the guest running for the exit. That's not the truth. You talked about getting the money into programs. I think that a lot of this scarcity thinking is really centered around the fact that for some nonprofits, because they don't have diverse funding, they're worried about how to keep the lights on and pay the bills that eats up a lot of our resources. How much of that do you think is a factor in people not collaborating? Bill:It's hard to quantify it. That's a good question. It is a factor. I think we can safely say it's a big factor. What percentage? I would have a hard time putting my fingers on that. That's part of the job is trying to make sure you're helping people take care of those basic needs so that they feel more available or open to diving deeper into this stuff. I don't really know if that answers your question, but I think you have identified a big factor. How to quantify that, I'm not sure. In different organizations, it varies widely, I would guess. Russell:That falls in line with the airline safety theory of putting your own mask on first. People really feel they would actually be taking something away from themselves to collaborate when in fact they might find some extra resources for their programs. This is the motivation for trying to find other ways. We live and die by the grant. We did have some private donors and other sources. When I was working for the tribe, we spent a whole lot of time focusing on grants as opposed to any other sources of revenue. We did try to start some businesses. There is a lot of snake oil out there. You have to keep your eyes open. That diversity of funding is important, and building relationships with donors is critical. That funding usually has more flexibility on the bottom end. When we start getting into the top end of the donors, they are usually a little bit more focused with what they want to see happen with that money. It's trying to get other sources of revenue in the door. Grants are not intended to keep you operating. They are for special purposes: to build them, test them until you can make them sustainable. That's another mistake folks make with grants. Bill:The other comment I would make on that is you are exactly right. The other thing is grants, we tell people that you can't put us in your budget for next year and assume you will get a grant every year. We have two grant cycles a year. We evaluate those separately every cycle. You can't count on that grant income. If you're good at it, you may have a good track record. You really have to develop other resources for funds that are steadier than that. I guess you found that with your Native American work. Hugh:When you review people, they have to submit financials or something. Do you look for alternate sources of funding? Bill:Yes, we do. It's one way you judge the strength of the organization. Do they have other sources of funds? I don't really want people who depend solely on us for their annual budget. There are some smaller agencies that probably truth be known they are very dependent on us. It's a stronger application if they can show us other sources of funds or have programs that generate funds. That helps the application. Hugh:There is a lot of data here that I think is helpful to any grant application. Understand what the grantor wants to achieve. Know about them. Follow the directions. Be very clear on the impact of what the money is going to provide. Here is another topic. We don't think about the administrative. I imagine a $5,000 grant would have fewer administrative requirements than a $500,000 grant or a $5 million grant. So there is some reporting back of how the money was utilized. How important is that? Bill:It's really important. Quite honestly, there is not really much difference for us because our grants generally run from a couple thousand to $25,000. We don't do half-a-million dollar grants. The administrative requirements are essentially the same for all the grants we provide. We feel it's our responsibility to our donors that first of all, the money was used for the purpose that was stated, and also that the impact that was expected was achieved or nearly achieved as well as could be done. We require written documentation of all that within a year from receiving the grant so that we can have a record of that and show the money was used for what our donors and we intended it to be used for and what the agency said it was going to be used for. That's a big deal to us. I know there are foundations that struggle with that sort of validation. They will go back later and find out there have been some discrepancies, or that the money wasn't used for what it said it was going to be used for. Whether you get $1,000 from us or $25,000 from us, you have to jump through the same hoops. Russell:If you are going to have a high-performance organization, you should track everything you do. This is strategy as we lay it out. You're tracking everything you're doing. This should not really be a stretch to reach out to your funding sources and say this is what you did. You built the framework, you built the strategy, you're tracking what you're doing, and you're getting it out there. Sometimes, things don't go well. People don't want to be transparent. I went to my mastermind network that I have out here. I put some stuff on the table. I got a lot of suggestions that were helpful. Some of the stuff was very basic, but it's the transparency. Now these folks can help me more than they were ever able to if I hadn't done this. The transparency supported me. Sometimes things don't go as well as they're planned, but we need to be in constant contact and transparent so that we can right the ship and get it back on track. A lot of foundations don't have the resources to track because you guys have to review everything you get back to make sure that project is on track. If you're effective, you're doing that. In structuring these programs, getting back the strategy piece and building things out, you will want to create systems that capture all the information you need, but they're easy to understand, access, and use by the people who are running the programs. If the evaluation tools are too hard, people will not use anything that is hard to implement. It has to be simple. It has to flow in line with their work. As these programs run, they are easy to track. It doesn't become a stretch at the end of the quarter, at the end of year to scramble and finish these reports. Been there, done that. That's how I know. If you got these things as part of your process, you can just roll this stuff out because you are tracking it all the time. Hugh:Part of what he referred to is we teach people when you have a strategy, you have milestones. This is your success. You've reached this. Then a milestone, you have a budget over here. When you pay a dollar, you achieve a milestone, so there is a redundancy in the budget. We find a lot of organizations don't really have any way to track things because they don't have a system in place. It's the Covey principle, as you were talking, Russell, of begin with the end in mind. You're going to have to do a report, so let's think backwards. What do we need to create now so it's not a big deal? The question to you is: Do you have pamphlets or educational materials or trainings for people to master these skills they may not have? Bill:The answer to that is no, we really don't. That is not something we have seen in our role up to now. What we have tried to do is as Russell was saying make it as easy for people as possible. Three years ago, we required paper copies of all applications, ten copies, so you'd get a stack of paper a foot tall from this little agency. Not only that, but all the trees we were killing. We have brought the process online on our website. While you're there, you can look at all the grants we made last year, who we granted to, how much, and for what purpose. We tried to make that as simple as possible and with as few clicks as possible. To your point, Hugh, I think maybe that's one of the next steps. I really see organizations like yours being at the forefront of helping people gain the tools they need to be successful. I don't know that with the staff I have, which is me, another full-time person, and a two-day-a-week accountant, that we could provide a lot of these resources. But there are good people out here like yourself who can do that. We'd certainly be interested in helping out. Hugh:Sure. We might have something we could provide for you. Russell, that was a good point you opened up there. What else are you stirring up in that no-hair head of yours? Bill:It's a good one. I'm not going to make any comments about hair. I'm right behind ya. Hugh:Oh, he has hair! Russell:I'm going to have to take a razor to it because when it comes in, it's pretty gray. I promised myself after I recovered from chemotherapy six years ago, no formula. I'm going to remind myself that I'm on blessed time, I got a few extra days, and I'm going to wear it proudly. That is part of the piece. A lot of nonprofits don't have the budget and development. That's something community foundations- Denver Foundation will provide technical support to grantees who they have granted funds to before. You spread too thin in terms of resources to do that. Partnerships between entities like SynerVision and my company and community foundations makes sense to go in and talk to people and help them get the training they need. Doing that for a community foundation, you touch a lot of entities because I don't know how many organizations you have, but the Denver Foundation probably has somewhere between 200-300 organizations who are grantees and members. That is a common size. To be able to talk to people about these things and to help them and to provide that sort of technical assistance that you haven't been able to provide is still good stewardship. It's about good stewardship and protecting those investments. That is something that benefits grantees and the foundation. It's really about going out and making that impact and supporting one another. Maybe something like a mastermind group from time to time. Some of our community foundations have put on a training event. But a mastermind, I just left a mastermind for my business. Is that something you have thought about with some of the folks you work with? Creating a mastermind group. Bill:That's something that Hugh and I have had conversations about. That's not something I have really envisioned our foundation doing. But I think in collaboration with people like you guys and maybe others, that's something we could work toward. I think it's a great idea. Hugh:Having a conversation with people about the gaps – they will discover something. We will discover what they think they need versus what they really need. The problem with blind spots is you can't see them. It's like your hair, Russell. I am glad it's coming in gray because you have earned every one of them. Are there any pitfalls that we have not identified in this conversation for people who are applying? Bill:I think we have touched on the ones that I can really think of. Make sure you ask for the right kind of things. Make sure you ask for the right amount of money based on what you have been able to find out about the foundation or whomever you are applying to. Make sure your application is complete and according to the requirements specified by the grantor. We have touched on all those things. Those are the key things, Hugh. The other thing I would mention is follow-up. The grant process doesn't end when you get that phone call or that letter that says, “Congratulations, you have been granted such-and-such money,” or the phone call that you might get- It's a good idea to make sure that you thank the organization, that you show a level of gratitude. We all like to feel like it's appreciated. That can only help. Particularly, in a community like ours, where most of these organizations will apply regularly, what you want is to be looked upon favorably as someone who has been A) a good steward of that money and B) appreciated getting it in the first place, and that we develop a relationship where we know who you are, what you're doing, and why you're a good outfit and good people doing good work. Hugh:That's a fundamental principle. I'm so surprised people don't honor it. Bill:Some people are really good at it, but not everybody. The ones who are good at it might be in the minority. But that's an important piece. We all like to be thanked and to have it known that what was done is appreciated and that you take it seriously. I would just encourage the grantees to make sure they do that. Hugh:Attitude or gratitude. I'm thinking back over the in-kind grants I've done. In my symposium, you had a board meeting… Bill:I know. How lame can you get? Hugh:People applied for a grant for that even though it was $40, and they got it. They were very grateful. But there were some small community leaders who didn't have any money who I granted. And only one of them said thank you. One. One. Bill:It is a bit of a lost art. Hugh:It is. Like conversation. We are going to give you the last word here. We try to keep it under an hour. This has been very helpful information.  Bill, this is great. He came over to my house so we could hang out and do this. One day, he'll have a camera on his computer. Bill:I just wanted to come over and check out your house. Hugh:Do you like it so far? Bill:It's great. Hugh:So Bill, what do you want to leave people with? What's a challenge or a tip or a thought you want to leave people with as we are ending this really good interview? Bill:Always remember the work you're doing is critically important. On the days when it feels like things are piling up and you feel varied, you are making a difference. I get to jump out of bed every morning and think, Wow, what can happen that will help the community be a better place to live? That's incredibly motivating. Don't lose sight of it. That's what we're here for. Yeah, it's about fundraising, it's about giving grants, but it's really not. What we're here for is to improve our communities and give people a sense that their money is going to help their fellow man and help their community. The vast majority don't give money to foundations for tax purposes and things like that. It's about philanthropy. We're helping people feel good, and we should feel good about that. Hugh:Most people don't give money because of donations. It's because they want to make a difference. Bill:It's not for taxes. It's because it makes them feel good. They do it with their heart. Hugh:I see you smiling, Russell. Thank you again for being here, my friend. Russell:Always a pleasure. If you don't tell people what difference their dollars are making, they will put them somewhere else. You stay in touch no matter what the results is. Bill, thanks a million. Hugh, thanks for making it through a broadcast without the magic phrase. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With General Conference coming up this weekend, Dr. Bill Smith and I speculate on some possible future revelations coming up!  Would Official Declaration 3 deal with Gays? https://youtu.be/clQ_cYvENw4 GT:  You mentioned a couple of things that were very interesting to me, especially in light of the Family Proclamation.  D&C 132 is kind of the foundation for forever families.  But you mentioned singles and you also mentioned gays.  How do those relate to section 132? Bill:  Well I think that section 132 is by evidence, at least by internal evidence, it's very much in the vein of thinking of sex as being in terms of heterosexual sex, of course not necessarily one-man and one-woman sex, but one-man, multiple-women.  So, I think that's the point of the revelation.  It doesn't really speak to the possibility of gay marriage.  It doesn't open that possibility at all.  Whether that can be addressed in some other way, I don't know, but the revelation, that's not on anybody's mind. GT:  Right.  So, do you see that as being a possibility of a future revelation? Bill:  Anything is possible.  I don't know.  Whether people would feel that there is dissonance with section 132 and any further revelation that expanded some kind of approval of gay relationships, gay marriage, I don't know.  That's for another generation, I am guessing.  But yes, that might be something that would be addressed.  I don't know. Of course we do this in relation to Section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants, which is one of Mormonism's most important revelations:  The New & Everlasting Covenant of marriage.  Is there room in this revelation to accommodate gay marriage?  In our next episode, Dr. Bill Smith will answer that question, and discuss how it might impact future revelations dealing with not only gays, but women as well. Bill:  Well there's something of equal probability I think is that we have an official declaration that says that women can be ordained. GT:  Would that be more likely? Bill:  Boy I don't really know.  I think yes, it probably fits better with the current paradigm than say gay marriage would be, recognizing gay marriage. .,. GT:  Do you see 132 being compatible with say female ordination? Bill:  Yeah, the polygamy parts seem to partake of the typical sort of patriarchal kinds of views of the 19th century, the 18th century and back.  In terms of incompatibilities, that's where that would lie.  In terms of ordination practices, those kinds of things, I don't see an incompatibility there, structure.  I mean it would be easy to enfold women into priesthood structures if that was to take place.  I don't see a problem there.  I don't think it would be possible to stop that because you had the same kinds of issues with blacks and the priesthood when the ‘78 change was announced.  They were very clear that this meant that there weren't any restrictions on their participation in any way. Is this Official Declaration 4?  Check out our conversation….. [paypal-donation] Here are some others episodes you may be interested in. 093: Greg Prince on History of LDS Policy Toward Gays 092:  How to Polygamists Feel about Gay Marriage? (Wilde) 048: What are the Theological Justifications of Polygamy? (Hales) 044: Does D&C 132 Conflict with Genesis? (Hales) 012: Kirtland Era Polygamy (Staker)  

Is your partner emotionally explosive, regularly picking fights, and blaming others for all their troubles? Bill Eddy sheds light on how to manage conflict and communication with a high conflict person. Bill Eddy is a lawyer, therapist, and mediator in San Diego, California. He is the President of the High Conflict Institute. He is on the part-time faculty at the Pepperdine University School of Law and on the part-time faculty of the National Judicial College and is the senior family mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center. He is the developer of the New Ways for Families, a skill-based method for managing high-conflict families in separation and divorce, which is being implemented in court systems in the United States and Canada. Bill provides training to professionals worldwide on the subject of managing high-conflict personalities and high-conflict disputes. He provides seminars to attorneys, mediators, judges, mental health professionals, human resource professionals, employee assistance professionals, ombuds, hospital and college administrators, government agencies, law enforcement, homeowners’ association managers and many others. He has presented in over 30 states, several provinces in Canada, and England, France, Sweden, Austria, Australia, Israel, Netherlands and New Zealand. Mr. Eddy is also the author of several books, including: 5 Types of People Who can Ruin Your Life (coming soon) Dating Radar: why your Brain Says Yes to the One Who Will Make your Life Hell (with Megan Hunter, MBA) High Conflict People in Legal Disputes It’s All Your Fault: 12 Tips for Managing People Who Blame Others for Everything BIFF: Quick Responses to High-Conflict People So, What’s Your Proposal: Shifting High-Conflict People from Blaming to Problem-Solving in 30 Seconds Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the  DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant. Guest Links: Websites http://www.highconflictinstitute.com/ https://www.newways4families.com/ Visit www.unhookedmedia.com for Bill Eddy books and products. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/highconflictinstitute/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/HighConflict Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-eddy-bba98a1b/ Modern Separations Links: Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ Episode Transcript Christina: Hi everybody. Today I'm very lucky to be talking to Bill Eddy, an international leader in the field of conflict resolution with high-conflict people. Bill is a lawyer, therapist, and mediator in San Diego, California. He's also the founder and president of the High Conflict Institute. He teaches part-time at Pepperdine University School of Law, the National Judicial College, as well as private training sessions for professionals worldwide on the subject of managing high-conflict personalities and high-conflict disputes. And there's still more! He has developed a program called New Ways for Families, a skill-based method for managing high-conflict families. And his program has been implemented in several court systems in the United States and Canada. Bill is also the author of several books, really too many in the list here but in our discussion, we talk in some detail about BIFF: Quick Responses to High-Conflict People and BIFF stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. We talked about his book So What's Your Proposal? Shifting High-Conflict People from Blaming to Problem Solving in Thirty Seconds!, and his newest book Dating Radar. Bill says there are four characteristics of high-conflict people. These are all-or-nothing, black and white type thinking, unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors, and preoccupation with blaming others. So if these characteristics sound familiar, whether you're separating from a high-conflict person or you have a high-conflict person in another area of your life, this episode is for you. Here we go.  Christina: Welcome, Bill! It's such an honor to speak to you today.  Bill: Well Christina, I'm really glad to be speaking with you about this.  Christina: Your contributions to the area of resolving really difficult conflict has been prolific over your career. For anyone not yet familiar with Bill's work, I highly recommend that you check out his books and programs. To get started, why don't you tell us about your journey and what brought you to focus on high-conflict people?  Bill: Well, it's interesting. I, for many years, have been a social worker since actually over thirty years since about 1981. I really like working with children and families and I was kind of trying to find the best place for myself. And while I started out practicing as a child and family counselor, I also volunteered at our local mediation center and found that I really like helping resolve disputes between people. And that I liked mediation and decided I would go to law school to primarily do divorce mediation. But in law school, I realized I should probably practice law for a couple of years and so I started dealing with practicing family law after I got my law degree and found that much of it was like, social work. And so I noticed that I was doing divorce mediation with out-of-court couples who were basically able to get along and just needed some guidance and help. And then I go to court in the mornings and one or both people would be very difficult and we would spend months, sometimes years. And what I realized is the high-conflict problems have a lot to do with people's own nature with their own personalities. And so I started writing a lot about high-conflict personalities but also how to deal with people like that, especially if you're going through a divorce or separation. So that's kind of how I ended up here.  Christina: OK, great! And so to clarify for the listeners, how do you define a high-conflict person? And how would somebody be able to tell if they're dealing with a high-conflict person?  Bill: Well in a sense, a lot of feedback I get from working with law clients and social work clients and mediation clients, is that people suddenly go “Oh my goodness, I know I'm dealing with a high-conflict person!” But I'd say there's four characteristics. And sometimes you can get a hint of this even before you separate. That is a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions where the person's emotions just kinda lead them down a lot of different paths where they start yelling and things that doesn't help; extreme behaviors like yelling, throwing things, lyings, taking family money, spreading rumors – all of these kinds of things. But the fourth is the biggest in many ways, and that's the preoccupation with blaming others. And if you're getting divorced from someone like this, you may be and have been and will become their target of blame. And they put all these intense thinking, emotions, behavior on the other person who's their target of blame. And so when people are getting ready to divorce or separate from someone who is like this or may show those behaviors, I encourage caution and planning so that you don't go through too much extreme difficulty becoming that person's target of blame.  Christina: So is it fair to say that most people probably would have noticed some or all of these types of characteristics during the relationship, or does it ever happen that a separation could all of a sudden sort of bring this type of behavior into the fore?  Bill: We see both. I'd say that most people that have a high-conflict divorce have realized during the relationship whether they are married or just living together that the person they're dealing with has extremes from time to time. But I've had people tell me that they really were surprised at how extreme the person became when they did go through divorce. So usually you know you're dealing with some difficulties but sometimes the difficulties during the divorce even gets the person by surprise. So that's why it's good to kind of think about patterns of behavior and there's high-conflict pattern of behavior in advance and to prepare for that possibility.  Christina: What type of preparation do you recommend?  Bill: Well, a few things. First of all, get support. Build a support system. I think it helps to meet with a counselor occasionally and just kind of prepare for what you may go through, 'cause you'll maybe personally attacked, publicly criticized, harassed, etc. Also, get consultation with a family lawyer, whether you'll hire one or not, a lot of family lawyers today will let you consult for half an hour or an hour. And kind of talk about your situation and what some of the problems could be. Another is to kinda collect information. What a lot of people we encourage to do is make sure you find out what all your bank account numbers are. Some people take pictures of all their household furniture, the big items, in case things start disappearing during a divorce. And also keep a journal of extreme events. So let's say there was a pushing and shoving incident happened while you're still living together. You wanna write down exactly what happened ideally on the day it happened. So if six months or a year later, you get blamed for that event, you got some kind of record to say “Wait a minute, this is what happened. I didn't start pushing. The other person started pushing.” You know, whatever it is that happened. So in a sense, it's preparing for the worst, but hoping for the best. And not assuming that the worst will happen, but kinda having your eyes open, having support, having information and keeping some records.  Christina: OK and so part of what I'm hoping to do is to provide people with a range of dispute resolution options and some hope that you don't necessarily have to end up in court. Now a lot of court files are comprised of at least one high-conflict person. But I know that you recommend that mediation can be possible and so that might be surprising for some people. Can you share your view of why mediation is a viable option in such a circumstance?  Bill: Well the reality is that over 90 percent of divorces are resolved by agreement. Even the ones that go to court, some end up finishing by agreement. So there's a really good chance even in a high-conflict case that it's gonna get resolved by agreement. And so I think mediation is really good because it keeps things calm. While two attorneys can negotiate with each other, it may be just the attorneys on their own and slip into being more adversarial. So mediation kinda keeps things calm. And collaborative divorce, if people have two collaborative lawyers, the lawyers can't go to court so they try hard to settle the case. So, something that kind of manages the case, and that's where I see mediation really be effective and that's most of what I do now. I've been a family lawyer for 25 years, but the last ten years I just do mediation. And about a third of my cases are high-conflict cases and people mostly reach an agreement. So what I encourage people do is kind of think a two-track system. One is try hard to negotiate and settle issues and mediation or some other form of negotiation, but keep your records, keep your notes your journal just in case you have to go to court. And the more prepared you are, the less likely the other person is to try to drag you into court. So I very much believe that mediation and I see high-conflict cases work things out. Sometimes it takes longer than it would with a case that wasn't high-conflict but still high-conflict people can settle in mediation so it's definitely worth a try. And it doesn't really hurt to try mediation. So that's why I just encourage people to start with mediation or some negotiation methods first.  Christina: Yeah, for sure. I agree that one of the benefits of mediation is the focus on trying to de-escalate, but I like your point of keeping the records and making sure that you are prepared just in case. But try to keep with the mindset that resolution is going to be the best for the family. And not using those records as a threat to the other.  Bill: Exactly! And there's a saying among lawyers, is used as something as a shield, not as a sword. And I really agree with that. Just protect yourself. And I might mention I have a book called Splitting, which is protecting yourself while divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. And it's really geared to potentially high-conflict situations and we really emphasize, my co-author and I, Randi Kreger, to be prepared to take notes but also to communicate well. We talk about using the BIFF method – brief, informative, friendly and firm. So that you're really trying to put a positive on things even if it feels like a potentially negative situation.  Christina: I think that BIFF strategy is really helpful. And it can feel overwhelming for people when they're dealing with somebody who wants to engage in conflict all the time, that's exhausting. Are there any other go-to tactics or strategies that people can keep in mind when they are trying to negotiate with a high-conflict spouse? And I'm thinking particularly of co-parenting is part of their arrangement and regular communication is necessary.  Bill: Yeah, there's... it really helps to focus on what you want for the future and not talking and emphasizing what you don't want to happen in the past and people make that mistake all the time is with a potentially high-conflict person. Just say what you want. So rather than say “You never took the kids to their karate class,” is to say “I'd like you to take the kids to their karate class.” And, because what happens is you trigger so much defensiveness that people are busy defending themselves rather than saying “Yes, I can agree to that.” And so think the future. Think proposals. And just so the people know there's other information out there, I also have a little book called So What's Your Proposal? And it talks about a lot, like twenty examples in there of focusing on the future by making a proposal and focusing on it like the other person has a choice that you're willing to discuss with them. Other options so it's a proposal, not a demand. And that's so important in dealing with a high-conflict partner or co-parent because it's easy to just try to tell them what to do or to point out all the mistakes that they've made. And that definitely doesn't help. You just wanna say what you're aiming for. Say, “I would like you to pick up the kids after school for karate twice a week.” rather than “You've been doing it wrong for years.”  Christina: And I find that sometimes it's necessary to repeat those types of questions. For example, “So what's your proposal?” If you take the karate example that you used, “I'd like you to pick up the kids from karate.” Because sometimes, the really high-conflict people will grab on to even a positive statement like that and be defensive. “Well, I always pick up the kids from karate.” And so bringing the conversation back again to that focusing on the positive and the future and that is great. So that's what I'd like you to do.  Bill: Right. Right, right. Just really try to emphasize the positive and that's good to point out things that are working. A lot of times when people dealing with a high-conflict person, they don't give them any positive feedback. They just look at everything that's wrong. And it really helps to say “I appreciate that thing you did last week. That was helpful.” Or “The kids said that they enjoyed doing that activity with you last week. That's great!” Because the more you can do that, you're being kind of a role model for the other parent to do that back. And to say “Well you did something I appreciate. Thank you for that.”  Christina: And then that type of appreciation and role modeling will hopefully inspire similar responses in return.  Bill: Exactly. And what's interesting is, we're talking briefly before about the BIFF response method of emails that are brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And the feedback we're getting is people really like writing their emails that way. 'Cause even if someone's hostile towards them, you're responding in a clean way. You're not being hostile or rude back. And what we're hearing is that the other person starts to respond with a BIFF response as well even though they don't know what a BIFF is. They just try to be brief or more straight in information, friendly, and firm. And so it's contagious, and that's important as people to realize everything you do is contagious, especially in a highly emotional situation like separation or divorce. So what you want the other person to catch from you is calmness, positive feedback. Not anger and resentment and focusing on what went wrong. So you can influence the other person a little bit, not a lot, but somewhat by being positive and not being negative.  Christina: I think it might be really helpful to give the listeners an example of a BIFF response. So let's say that somebody receives an email demanding that the parenting schedule change the following week. What might a BIFF response look like?  Bill: Well actually, let me read one to you from the Splitting book...  Christina: OK.  Bill: Because it really, it's a classic example. And so let's say this is Joe and Jane and they've been separated for a couple of years – maybe divorced or maybe never married but with a couple of kids. And so Jane actually wants to take the kids Friday afternoon to her boss' birthday party at the office. And so she made that request, simple request. Jane and Joe response:  “Jane, I can't believe you're so stupid as to think I'm going to let you take the children to your boss' birthday party during my parenting time. Have you no memory of the last six conflicts we've had about my parenting time? Or are you having an affair with him? I always knew you would do anything to get ahead. In fact, I remember coming to your office party and witnessing you making a total fool of yourself. Including flirting with everyone from the CEO down to the mail room clerk. Are you high on something? Haven't you got your finances together enough to support yourself yet? Without flinging yourself at every time they can have it, and on and on and on...”  Christina: Oh my gosh that's traumatic just to listen to!  Bill: I know! I know! It's funny I read this to family lawyers and they say “I get these everyday.” So that's not a BIFF response. That's not the way we want people to talk. But if you think of a BIFF response as brief, informative, just straight information, no opinions, criticisms, emotions. Friendly, just a friendly greeting. And firm in that it ends the conversation or it asks for a simple yes or no response.  So let me read Jane's response and see if this is a BIFF response.  “Thank you for responding to my request to take the children to my office party. Just to clarify, the party would be from 3 to 5 on Friday at the office and there would be approximately thirty people there, including several other parents and their school-aged children. There'll be no alcohol because that's a family-oriented firm and there'll be family-oriented activities. I think it would be a good experience for the kids to see me at my workplace. Since you've not agreed, and of course I will respect that and withdraw my request because I recognize it is your parenting time.”  Bill: So, that's brief, that's straight information, it's friendly, she says “Thank you for responding...”, and she says “I respect your parenting time...”, and it's firm that it ends the conversation. Now she could have, depending on what she knows about Joe, have ended by saying, “With these information, I hope you'll reconsider. Please let me know by Thursday at 5:00. Yes or No.” So either of those would be a BIFF response. But do you feel the difference in the tone?  Christina: Yeah, I mean it would take a huge amount of mindfulness and maturity to be able to respond that way. Probably if some deep breathing and some time in between reading the first email and sending the BIFF response.  Bill: Right. One thing we encourage is that people have someone else look at it before they send it. So that they can kinda catch if you let anything kinda weak through that is really angry back. But you're right. It's not easy and in many ways, what we teach people is self-management. It's managing their own emotions. It's keeping their thinking flexible. Managing moderate behavior and checking themselves rather than blaming other people. And I might mention we have a method we call New Ways for Families that teaches a lot of skills, like making proposals and BIFF responses. So that people can get more and more comfortable doing these things with practice. And I'll tell you, we just get a lot of good feedback about this method because people feel more in control of themselves. And then the other person has less and less influence on them with their negativity.    Christina: Sure. Because the only person we really can control is ourselves. So when you're dealing with somebody high-conflict, the odds of being able to change their behavior is probably relatively slim. Hopefully, over time, they might take on this BIFF strategy themselves. But it in the meantime, people can affect how they are looking at the situation and choosing to respond.  Bill: Right. It's a learning process, it's a process of patience. I think it's kinda giving yourself encouraging statements, that's something else we teach with our New Ways for Families method. Because you know you're dealing with a hard time. And you can give yourself encouraging statements. You really can focus on what makes you feel good and get less stressed by it all. By getting support as I've said at the very beginning is a big part of that – from friends, family, even a counselor from, if you find it helpful.  Christina: Is the New Ways program, is that online and something anybody can sign up for?  Bill: It's both. It's online, where anyone can go. And actually, I'll give you our website for New Ways. It's newways4families.com. And we use the number 4 as we say new ways, and then the number 4, families.com. And the online version is called Parenting Without Conflict. Now that's kind of an aspiration because there's always gonna be some conflict. We just want it to be low-conflict, not high-conflict.  Christina: Or respectful conflict.  Bill: Exactly. But it's a twelve, basically twelve sessions, twelve hours, and it's approved by various court systems for people required to take a parenting class. But a lot of people just find it really helpful because of the skills that it teaches. We also have some cities where this is available as a counseling program and the judges actually order both parents to get the counseling program method which is six individual sessions for each parent with a separate counselor and a workbook. And then they each have three parent-child sessions to teach the kids the same skills – flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking themselves. The online course anybody can take. It's very easy to access that. But what we find is skills really help a lot and the people want skills. They want to know “How do I deal with my own emotions?” and “How do I respond to the other person's emotions?” and how you go through a divorce will really teach your kids how they should solve relationship problems in the future. And so we were really encouraging people kinda practice self-management skills during this time.  Christina: That's a fantastic resource and we will provide the link in the show notes so people can access that.  Bill: Let me mention one other thing is our other website, highconflictinstitute.com can be used to look at a lot of articles. We have a lot of free articles as well as books to pay for and videos. So I'll make sure you know about both of those websites.  Christina: Thank you, we'll post both of those. So taking just a bit of a left turn here, I see that your newest book, Dating Radar is helping people understand why they make the relationship choices that they do. I think the subtitle says it all: 'Why your brain says Yes to the one who'll make your life hell'. Now, I haven't had the chance to read it yet but I'd love to hear a bit of an overview because that sounds like that's really gonna help people hear out why they've made the decisions they have in the past and hopefully help make better decisions in the future.  Bill: I'm so glad you're asking about that 'cause we're really... Megan Hunter and I co-authored it. And we really feel enthusiastic about what we put in there. We did an online survey which helped give us feedback from a lot of people who said they've been through high-conflict relationships and warning signs that they missed. So in this book, we focused on three key things for Dating Radar. First, is know what you're looking for. Learn what the patterns of five high-conflict personality styles are. Then look at how they jam your radar that people get misled or overwhelmed with the goodness. You know, the knight-in-shining-armor image, the super charming man or woman who just sweeps you off your feet – that this isn't real. And that people realize this person is too good to be true. That they act like their favorite most important interests are the same as what they realize yours are. And we call that a fake compatibility that people are misled by. But the third category is your own blind spots, and that's where we look at kind of cultural beliefs about relationships that don't help. And a lot of songs feed this. You know, that you can change your partner “I will be able to fix this person and make them into a more responsible, honest partner. And that's just not true. We have to learn what you see is what you're going to get. And so a lot of people, you know like the day before they get married they go, “You know I'm not so sure but you know, I think time and love will change someone's soul. I'll make him settle down.” Of course, there's the old saying that women marry somebody based on the idea that they can change him and that men marry someone based on the idea that she'll never change.  Christina: Right.  Bill: So we have a lot of beliefs that trick us up so, that's what it helps with what we really think that so many people, both Megan and I worked in the divorce field for so many years and we see so many people they go, “Why did I do this? And I missed the warning signs.” We wanna help people know the warning signs and not miss them. So that you know, you don't have to go through a high-conflict divorce or separation later on.  Christina: Well that's fantastic. I'm looking forward to reading that. Before we end, do you have any other recommendations for people who find themselves in the situation of separating from a high-conflict person?  Bill: Just basically you know, getting support, getting information... We've got a lot of books. I mentioned BIFF, but I didn't mention that we have a BIFF book that teaches people how to write BIFF response emails and Facebook posts, etc. We have So What's Your Proposal, we have Dating Radar. So another book called Don't Alienate the Kids!, which talks about how we try to help the kids this time. And that's such an important part. People wonder “What do I say? Should I say something? Shouldn't I say something?” And so we recommend a lot of specific things to explain what's going on without badmouthing the other parent. Warning family members and friends, “You may hear terrible things about me. Please check them out with me. Don't hesitate to ask me if something true that you've heard.” Those kinds of things. So overall, it's being prepared, but I would say if someone's facing a high-conflict divorce, just plan ahead before you start the divorce process. Before you even say “I wanna get divorce” or “I'm moving out” is get your dots in a row. And the book Splitting really gives you a whole kinda map for what to expect and what to do.  Christina: This has been a wealth of information for our listeners, Bill. Thank you so much for being here with me today. And thank you for all of your contributions to the field of family law.  Bill: Thank you so much, Christina! And best wishes with your work.  Christina: Thank you. 

Kristen: Hello and welcome to Cerius Business Today. This is Kristen McAlister and I’m joined today with interim CFO Bill Hegeman. How are you? Bill: I’m really good Kristen. How are you? Kristen: Great. Thank you taking time out of your busy schedule. I know it took quite a bit to get you here, but glad to have you. I understand that you jump in to a number of pretty complex and dire situations, some they range in severity. You’re in an interesting assignment right now. Obviously without bulging any confidential information, what are some of the things that you are working through with the situation and bringing about the impact that you bringing about in the company? Bill: Well the one thing I talk about is cash. When I came here cash was extremely tight and even when I was, they were talking to me about this position they didn’t bring it up that much but shortly after I got here I realized there were severe cash situation and dealing with it, and then a little more digging I found out they weren’t collecting receivables in a timely manner that they had that you know more than about two-thirds of receivables were past due and at the same time they were not paying their suppliers on a timely basis. So they were stealing money thatshould have been for the suppliers by not collecting from their customers. I immediately put somebody on charge with that to make phone calls and make direct contact with our customers, and ask for the money. And once we did that within 5 weeks, we cleaned up over 80-percent of those past due receivables and they’ve been able to pay their vendors again. And it’s just a matter of discipline that you know you sell a good product at a fair price and you need to collect that. And if you don’t collect that, it’s going to cause you problems. So I just put in a very specific thing that you didn’t stop until you talk to the customer and get a commitment. And once you’ve done we collected them. Because they did like working with us. That’s one of the main things. The other thing was just the lack of credibility. That was the primary reason I was brought in is they could not provide, they had an international parent and they could not provide good, consistent financial information. And the company was extremely frustrated that they would ask for information, then they’d ask in a different way and they’d get two completely different answers. And this went on and on again where they just couldn’t get consistent financial information out of the organization I’m with. And so that’s one of the things I’ve done is really tighten the policies and procedures to make sure that we’re doing things the same way each time and that we review the information before we send it over but we make sure it’s right and it’s on time. Kristen: I know in this specific situation there’s also a talent assessment, do you have all the right people in the accounting or finance department. And we see that often in our clients and especially in fast growing companies. What advice would you give to their CEO or someone who’s currently leading the finance department of how to recognize the talent that you need in there? What the gaps are? How do you train them? Or maybe they’re just not the right fit that’s so those soft skills that are really difficult. Is there may be some top pieces of advice you can give from talent management and finance… Bill: Yeah. So one of the things I do when I come in to an organization is I do meet with each of the people and they, most of the people in the organization know who the good performers are and who the bad ones are. And so the first thing is just to talk to everyone and get their opinions. Who do they like working with? Who gives them the best information? And you get a pretty good sense of who’s on board and who isn’t. And then secondly, you go through what should you be expecting from that position? Because from my experience I know what the output should be for specific position and then I will go in and talk to that person to find out what they’re getting. You know is it a systems issue or is it a competence, the competency issue? And you can pretty quickly assess. And what I say is usually in two weeks I can tell you who the people that must go, and who the people that probably should go, and then if there’re upgrades needed in some of the positions where you might have a good performer but they just aren’t capable of doing everything that they’re required to do. Kirsten: That is tremendous advice. Especially as much as we’re seeing it in companies right now. Is there anything other else that maybe we haven’t hit on or that you’d say CEO’s really should be looking and expecting from their finance department? If you would say 3 things they should be looking at and kinging in on in order to be effective for strategic plans and where they want to go next year, what would those 3 things be? Bill: I’d say first of all I would have the things, the finance team provide you with a 3 year financial view of the future where they take and they look at your plans and they build a set of financials around that. And what you want to make sure that you have the cash capacity to fulfill those needs and if you don’t what are you going to do about it. So the first thing is that they can develop, put those together and you can give them tough questions and they can answer them. I think the second thing is to make sure that your finance organization is engaged with the entire organization. One of the things that I found is that in some organizations the finance department hasn’t been given its due and people don’t respect them and therefore they don’t get the answers they need to provide financials. But conversely the finance department can’t help them be successful. Finance department could be very, good finance department could be very valuable to the entire organizations for answering questions, helping them with pricing, helping them understand what needs to be done in a credit situation, you know, as far as credit approval goes for our new customers. So there’s a lot of things the finance department can do, but if they’re not included in the business they’re, you’re going to be sure changed. Then the last thing that I feel that is valuable for an organization is to really understand what their needs of the finance department are. They need to really sit down just like a HR department or a business development. What do you need from them and be clear about it and make sure that you’re getting that from them. Kristen: Bill that is tremendous advice, especially if you’re a CEO or a business owner and you don’t have the decades of finance background that you have. That’s very compelling. I appreciate your time and sharing your expertise and experiences with us today. Feel free to join us on our next episode of Cerius Business Today, and again Bill thank you for joining us. Bill: Thank you.

Kristen: Hello and welcome to Cerius Business Today. This is Kristen McAlister and I’m joined today with interim CFO Bill Hegeman. How are you? Bill: I’m really good Kristen. How are you? Kristen: Great. Thank you taking time out of your busy schedule. I know it took quite a bit to get you here, but glad to have you. Well Bill I know that you go into a number of situations where there’s, involving finance challenges with companies and none of them are ever easy. But just to understand a little bit about your background and how you ended up being an interim CFO helping companies in troubled situations. I know you’ve gone from Controller to CFO to President to an interim. Can you give us a brief overview of how you got there? Bill: I started at a Fortune 500 company, did all their back office accounting, taxes, cash management. And then became a controller of a billion-dollar division which really gave me access to a lot of different things. What I found is the controller position is I really like the operating side of the business, really understanding how customers buy, and how suppliers provide their products. And with that I decided to move to a smaller company as a CFO. From there I ended up as a general manager and eventually spinning it off and became President of a small contract manufacturing. That eventually ended and I moved into a CFO role in a little bit larger organization, but the organization was broken. I took the actions to fix the organization and eventually ended up as president of that organization. After retiring to move to warmer climate, I was looking around for new opportunities and I found there is a need for people that understood businesses the way I did because of my diverse background, and therefore I became an interim executive for a number of different firms. Kristen: Sounds like your variety of background in finance operations to president, you’ve got a lot of experience to draw from in order to help organizations. What are some of the ways that you help them that the most common challenges that organizations run into, especially in the finance realm? Bill: Well some of the things that I run into are fairly common, and the first one I run into is just the credibility issues that people don’t trust the finance organization. Things have gone on, usually for a period of time, where they miss deadline, they don’t communicate. When they do communicate, the information is either incomplete or its confusing, and then people start asking more and more questions, and they get more information that doesn’t quite make sense, and eventually they point just don’t trust the finance sector at all. And if you’re a bank, or you’re an auditor, that causes you a great deal of concern and it becomes very dysfunctional for the organization. Another problem I see a lot, and this is usually the tipping point where I get called in is they don’t have enough cash to run the business. And it’s usually a product of, it could be a number of different things because it’s usually that they don’t collect what is owed them. And for some reason they don’t feel that they can go out and ask for it on a consistent basis. That’s another thing. And then the last thing is really the lack of discipline within the finance organization can cause a lot of problems is that they don’t run a lot of businesses as a serious entity. A lot of times the company doesn’t value the finance function and so they don’t put enough resources in or enough skills in those resources to run a good finance department. And then the issues that come with that prop up in a number of different ways, but it’s just the lack of investing in the finance organization. Kristen: So it sounds like there’s a number of things that end up compounding on top of each other, and you certainly end up going in one. It’s in pretty dire strength. So if I’m a CEO, a company owner, I’d like to get someone of your expertise in there sooner than later, especially before having cash flow problems. What are some early signs that I should be looking for in maybe my finance and accounting department, the company’s outgrown the current expertise or beyond our capabilities. What’s some things I should look for? Bill: I think if you’re not able to adequately your bank’s questions, or your finance company or your finance department is not, usually the bank is pretty adapted that something is wrong because they deal with so many companies. That’s one thing when you get into abnormal amount of questions from the bank. The same with if you have audited financials, you’re going to see a lot of unusual things pop up during their audit that should be pretty standard. And so that’s a red flag. The other thing is if they can’t produce consistent financial results for you the executive, they should be able to produce those in a timely manner. If they’re struggling to do that, here’s usually a reason that says somethings broken and isn’t getting fixed. And so that’s another red flag that goes up that can be a pretty telling issue, but I would definitely, if you don’t have the gas to pay your bills, that’s probably the biggest red flag. Kristen: One of the questions we often get from companies is that I’ve got a controller in place. When do I graduate, or when do I add CFO, and kind of what’s the difference? How would you respond to that? Bill: Well the way that I would look at is the controller is looking out the rearview mirror, they’re recording what has already happened, they’re focused on making sure that the accounting is right and they’re just looking to make sure that everything that they saw that happened gets recorded properly. The CFO is really becomes critical because he’s gonna be much more forward looking. He’s gonna make sure that you have the resources and the assets available to grow your organization. If there’s hurdles, he’s going to make you see them in advance and help you through them. And so when you’re trying to decide when it’s time to graduate from a controller to a CFO, it’s when you’re looking for the business to go through a substantial change you know more than 10 to 15% on an annual basis where you really need to be looking to the future more than just recording what’s happening in the past. That’s pretty common to get a CFO in, and it doesn’t have to be a full-time CFO, there’s fractional CFO’s out there where you don’t need to make the full investment right away, but you’re going to find out pretty quick that the CFO’s more than worth their money to contribute to their operation. Kriten: Thank you. That’s a great distinction. I appreciate your time and sharing your expertise and experiences with us today. Feel free to join us on our next episode of Cerius Business Today, and again Bill thank you for joining us. Bill: Thank you.

Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers interview author, weight lifter, and personal trainer Bill DeSimone.  Bill penned the book Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints  Bill is well known for his approach to weight lifting which, focuses on correct biomechanics to build strength without undue collateral damage to connective tissue and the rest of the body.So, whether you are an aspiring trainer, serious weight lifter, or even an Inform Fitness client who invests just 20-30 minutes a week at one of their seven locations this episode is chock full of valuable information regarding safety in your high-intensity strength training.  A paramount platform of which the Power of Ten resides at all InForm Fitness locations across the country.To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.comIf you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. To purchase Adam Zickerman's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon:http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTenTo purchase Bill DeSimone's book Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints click this link to visit Amazon:http://bit.ly/CongruentExerciseIf you would like to produce a podcast of your own just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.comBelow is the transcription for Episode 20 - Author Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise20 Author Bill DeSimone - Congruent ExerciseAdam: So there's not a day that goes by that I don't think by the way that I don't think of something Bill has said to me when I'm training people. Bill is basically my reference guide, he's my Grey's Anatomy. When I try an exercise with somebody, I often find myself asking myself, what would Bill do and I take it from there. Without further ado, this is Bill, and we're going to talk about all good stuff. Joint friendly exercises, what Bill calls it now, you started out with congruent exercises, technical manual for joint friendly exercise, and now you're rephrasing it.Bill: Well actually the first thing I did was [Inaudible: 00:00:43] exercise, but the thing is I didn't write [Inaudible: 00:00:45] exercise with the idea that anybody other than me was going to read it. I was just getting my own ideas down, taking my own notes, and just to flesh it out and tie it up in a nice package, I actually wrote it and had it bound it up and sent it off to Greg Anderson and McGuff and a couple others, and it hit a wave of interest.Adam: A wave, they were probably blown away.Bill: Yeah well, a lot of those guys went out of their way to call me to say boy, a lot of what I suspected, you explained here. But when I read it now, it's pretty technical, it's a challenge.Mike: There's a lot of, I think, common sense with an experienced trainer when you think about levers in general, and I think what you did in that manual was make it very succinct and very clear. I think it's something that maybe we didn't have the full story on, but I think we had some — if you have some experience and you care about safety as a trainer, I think you are kind of looking at it and you saw it observationally, and then I think when we read this we were like ah, finally, this has crystalized what I think some of us were thinking.Adam: Exactly. You know what I just realized, let's explain, first and foremost. You wrote something called Moment Arm Exercise, so the name itself shows you have technical — that it probably is inside, right? So moment arm is a very technical term, a very specific term in physics, but now you're calling it joint friendly exercise, and you called it also congruent exercise at one point. All synonymous with each other, so please explain, what is joint friendly exercise or fitness?Bill: It's based more on anatomy and biomechanics than sports performance. So unlike a lot of the fitness fads that the attitude and the verbiage comes out of say football practice or a competitive sport, what I'm doing is I'm filtering all my exercise instruction through the anatomy and biomechanics books, to try to avoid the vulnerable — putting your joints in vulnerable positions, and that's so complicated which is why I struggled with so much to make it clearer. So I started with moment arm exercise, and then I wrote Congruent Exercise, which is a little broader but obviously the title still requires some explanation. And then — how it happened, as for my personal training in the studio, I would use all this stuff but I wouldn't explain it because I was only dealing with clients, I wasn't dealing with peers. Since it's a private studio and not a big gym, I don't have to explain the difference between what I'm doing and what somebody else is doing, but in effect, I've been doing this every day for fifteen years.Adam: I have to say, when you say that, that you didn't explain it to clients, I actually use this information as a selling point. I actually explain to my clients why we're doing it this way, as opposed to the conventional way, because this is joint friendly. I don't get too technical necessarily, but I let them know that there is a difference of why we're doing it this way, versus the conventional way. So they understand that we are actually a cut above everybody else in how we apply exercise, so they feel very secure in the fact that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, but I digress.Bill: Generally what I do is any signage I have, a business card, website, Facebook presence, all lays out joint friendly and defines it and kind of explains itself. I would say most of the clients I have aren't coming from being heavily engaged in another form of fitness. They're people who start and drop out programs or they join a health club in January and drop out. It's not like I'm getting somebody who is really intensely into Crossfit, or intensely into Zumba or bodybuilding, and now they're banged up and need to do something different. The joint friendly phrasing is what connects me with people that need that, I just find that they don't need the technical explanation as to why we're not over stretching the joint capsule in the shoulder. Why we're not getting that extra range of motion on the bench press, because again, they haven't seen anybody doing otherwise, so I don't have to explain why I'm doing it this way.Adam: Yeah but they might have had experience doing it themselves. Let's take an overhead press for example, having your arms externally rotating and abducted, versus having them in front of you. There's an easy explanation to a client why we won't do one versus the other.Bill: But I have to say I do not get people who do not even know what a behind the neck press is. Now in Manhattan is a little bit different, more denser.Adam: So for this conversation, let's assume some people know, or understand in a way what the conventional is, but we can kind of get into it. What is conventional and what's not conventional. So it's joint friendly, how is it joint friendly, what are you actually doing to make it joint friendly?Bill: Well the short answer is that I use a lot less range of motion than we've got accustomed to, when we used to use an extreme range of motion. If bodybuilders in the 60s were doing pumping motions, and then you wanted to expand that range of motion, for good reason, and then that gets bastardized and we take more of a range of motion and turn it into an extreme range of motion — just because going from partial motions to a normal range of motion was good, doesn't make a normal range of motion to an extreme range of motion better. And in fact —Adam: What's wrong with extreme range of motion?Bill: Well because —Adam: Don't say that you want to improve flexibility.Bill: Well the HIIT guys who would say that you're going to improve flexibility by using —Adam: HIIT guys means the high intensity training sect of our business.Bill: So the line about, you're going to use the extreme range of motion with a weight training exercise to increase flexibility. First of all, either flexibility is important or it's not, and that's one of those things where HIIT has a little bit of an inconsistency, and they'll argue that it's not important, but then they'll say that you can get it with the weights. That's number one. Number two, a lot of the joint positions that machines and free weight exercises put us in, or can put us in, are very vulnerable to the joints, and if you go to an anatomy and biomechanics textbook, that is painfully obvious what those vulnerable positions are. Just because we walk into a gym or a studio and call it exercise instead of manual labor or instead of — instead of calling it submission wrestling and putting our joints or opponents' joints in an externally rotated abduct and extended position, we call it a pec fly, it's still the same shoulder. It's still a vulnerable position whether it's a pec fly stretching you back there, or a jiujitsu guy putting you in a paintbrush, but I don't know, for most of the pop fitness books though, if anybody else is really looking at this. Maybe not in pop fitness, maybe Tom Pervis —Adam: What's pop fitness?Bill: If you walk into a bookstore and look in the fitness section for instance, any of those types. No offense, but celebrity books, glossy celebrity fitness books, but I don't know that anybody — and the feedback that I've gotten from experienced guys like [Inaudible: 00:08:26] or the guys we know personally, is — even McGuff said yeah, I never associated the joint stuff with the exercise stuff.Adam: Let's talk about these vulnerabilities that you're talking about and extreme ranges of motion. So we have to understand a little bit about muscle anatomy to understand what we mean by the dangers of these extreme ranges of motion. So muscles are weaker in certain positions and they're stronger in other positions. Maybe talk about that, because that's where you start getting into why we do what we do, like understanding that muscles don't generate the same amount of force through a range of motion. They have different torque potentials.Mike: And is there a very clear and concise way of communicating that to a lay person too, like we have practice at it, but in here, we're over the radio or over the podcast, so it's like describing pictures with words.Bill: The easiest way to show it to a client who may not understand what muscle torque is, is to have them lock out in an exercise. Take a safe exercise, the barbell curl, where clearly if you allow your elbows to come forward and be vertically under the weight, at the top of the repetition, clearly all of a sudden the effort's gone. There's no resistance, but if you let your elbows drop back to rib height, if you pin your elbows to the sides through the whole curl, now all of a sudden your effort feels even. Instead of feeling like — instead of having effort and then a lockout, or having a sticky point and then a lockout, now it just feels like effort.Adam: Or a chest press where your elbows are straight and the weights are sitting on those elbows, you're not really working too hard there either.Bill: Same thing. If you have a lockout — what's easy to demonstrate is when the resistance torque that the machine or exercise provides doesn't match your muscle torque. So if your muscle torque pattern changes in the course of a movement, if you feel a lockout or a sticking point, then it's not a line. If all you feel is effort, now it matches pretty evenly. Now here's the thing, all that really means, and part of what I got away for a moment on — all that really means is that that set is going to be very efficient. Like for instance, the whole length of the reputation you're working. It's not like you work and lockout and rest, all that means is that it's going to be a very efficient set. You can't change a muscle torque curve, so if you were just to do some kind of weird angled exercise, you wouldn't get stronger in that angle. All you would do is use a relatively lower weight. Nobody does like a scott bench curl, nobody curls more than a standing curl. You can't change the muscle torque curve, you might change the angle, which means the amount of weight that your hand has change, to accommodate the different torque at that joint angle, but you're not changing where you're strongest. If you could, you would never know you had a bad [Inaudible: 00:11:36], because if the pattern — if the muscle torque pattern could change with a good [Inaudible: 00:11:44], it would also change with a bad [Inaudible: 00:11:47], and then you would never know. Take a dumbbell side raise, everybody on the planet knows it's hardest when your arms are horizontal. Your muscle torque curve can never change to accommodate what the resistance is asking. Now if you go from a machine side raise, which has more even — like where those two curves match, that set feels harder because you don't have to break. You do a set of side raises with dumbbells to failure, if it feels — if it's a difficulty level of ten, of force out of ten, and then you go to a machine side raise and go to failure, it's like a ten, because you didn't have that break built into the actual rep. So the moment arms, knowing how to match the resistance required by the exercise and the muscle torque expressed by your limbs, that makes for a more efficient exercise. In terms of safety, it's all about knowing what the vulnerable positions of the joints are and cutting the exercise short, so that you're not loading the joint into an impingement, or into like an overstretched position.Mike: How different are these…. like thinking about limitation and range of motion on them, we mentioned that before and I think it's kind of adjacent to what you're talking about is — we also want to help people understand that if they're on their own exercising or there are other trainers who want to help their clients, and for our trainers to help our clients… troubleshooting, we know generally how the joints work, where the strength curves exist, but how to discern where those limitations are. Like you said before, that one of the things you do is you limit range of motion and get much more stimulus and muscle.Bill: I'm saying limit range of motion because that might be the verbiage that we understand and maybe listeners would understand, but it's really a lot more complicated than just saying, use this range of motion. So for instance, in a lower back exercise, say a stiff leg or dead lift, which, when I used to misinterpret that by using a full range of motion, I'd be standing on a bench with a barbell, and the barbell would be at shoe level. My knees would be locked, my lower back would be rounded, my shoulders would be up my ears as I'm trying to get the bar off the ground, and so yes, I was using a full range of motion.Adam: That's for sure.Mike: That can be painted for that description.Bill: It's also pretty much a disaster on your lower back waiting to happen, at least on your lower back.Adam: I've got to go to a chiropractor just listening to that.Bill: Exactly, but you still see it all the time. You see it all the time on people using kettle bells, you see that exact posture. The kettle bell is between their legs, their knees are locked, their lower back is rounded, and now they're doing a speed lift. At least I was doing them slow, they're doing speed dead lifts, so if I was going to do an exercise like that, it wouldn't be an extreme range of motion, I'd be looking to use a correct range of motion. So for instance, I wouldn't lock the knees, and I would only lower the person's torso so that they could keep the curve in the lower back. Which might require a rep or two to see where that is, but once you see where that is, that's what I would limit them to.Mike: Do you do it at first with no weight with the client?Bill: That'd be one way of lining it up.Mike: Just sort of seeing what they can just do, make sure they understand the position and stuff.Bill: So for instance, the chest press machine I have in the studio is a Nitro —Adam: [Inaudible: 00:15:37] Nitro.Bill: And it doesn't — the seat doesn't adjust enough for my preference, so the person's elbows come too far back. So for instance, to get the first rep off the ground, the person's elbows have to come way behind the plane of their back, which —Adam: So you've come to weigh stack themBill: Weigh stack, right.Mike: It's like our pull over, you know how we had to pull it over at one point?Bill: So what I'll do is I'll help the person out of the first repetition, help them out of the bottom, and then I'll have my hand to the clipboard where I want their elbow to stop. So as soon as they touch my hand with their elbow, they start to go the other way.Adam: So they're not stretching their pecs too far.Bill: Well more specifically, they're not rotating their shoulder capsule. So that's another thing we tend to do, we tend to think of everything in terms of the big, superficial muscles — right, those are the ones that don't get hurt, it's the joints that [do]. That was one thing of all the stuff I read, whether it was CSCS or Darton's stuff or Jones' stuff, there was always a little murkiness between what was the joint and what was the muscle. That stuff was always written from the point of view of the muscle.Adam: What's a joint capsule, for those that don't know what a joint capsule is. A shoulder capsule.Bill: It's part of the structure of what holds your shoulder together, and so if the old [Inaudible: 00:17:06] machines, 1980 vintage, that bragged about getting such an extreme range of motion, some of them… it really took your shoulder to the limit of where it could go to start the exercise, and we were encouraged to go that far.Adam: And what would happen?Bill: Eventually it just adds to the wear and tear that you were going to have in your shoulder anyway. And that's if people stayed with it, I think a lot of people ended up dropping out.Mike: Often times exacerbating what was going on.Bill: You rarely see, it's occasional that we have that sort of catastrophic event in the gym, it's occasional —Mike: Almost never happens.Bill: A lot of the grief that I take for my material is well, that never happens, people do this exercise all the time, people never explode their spine. Well a) that's not true, they do, just not in that persons' awareness, and b) but the real problem is unnecessarily adding to life's wear and tear on your joints. So it's not just what we do in the gym that counts, if somebody plays tennis or somebody has a desk job or manual labor job — let's say a plumber or some other manual labor guy has to go over his head with his arms a lot, that wear and tear on his shoulder counts, and just because they walk into your gym, and you ask them about their health history, do you have any orthopedic problems and they say no, yes. I'm on the verge of an orthopedic problem that I don't know about, and I've worn this joint out because of work, but no I have no orthopedic problems at the moment. So my thing is, the exercise I'm prescribing isn't going to make that worse.Adam: Well you don't want to make it worse, and that's why you're limiting range of motion, that's why you're matching the strength curve of the muscle with the resistance curve of the tool you're using, whether it's free weight or machine or the cam.Bill: Yeah, we're supposed to be doing this for the benefits of exercise. I do not — I truly do not understand crippling yourself over the magical benefit of exercise. I mean there's no — in 2014, there was a lot of negative publicity with Crossfit, with some of the really catastrophic injuries coming about. There's no magic benefits just because you risk your life, you either benefit from exercise or you don't, but you don't get extra magic benefit because you pushed something to the brink of cracking your spine or tearing your shoulder apart.Adam: Well they talk about them being functional or natural movements, that they do encourage these full ranges of motion because that's what you do in life.Bill: Where? Mike: Well I mean like in sports for example, you're extending your body into a range of motion — and also there are things in life, like for example, like I was saying to Adam, for example, sometimes you have to lift something that's heavy and you have to reach over a boundary in front of you to do so.Bill: Like… putting in the trunk of a car, for example.Mike: Things like that, or even —Adam: So shouldn't you exercise that way if that's what you're doing in every day life?Mike: If your daily life does involve occasional extreme ranges of motion, which that's the reason why your joints of kind of wearing and tearing anyway, is there something you can do to assist in training that without hurting it? Or exacerbating it?Bill: You know it's interesting, 25 years ago, there was a movement in physical therapy and they would have back schools, and they would — it was sort of like an occupational oriented thing, where they would teach you how to lift, and at the time, I thought that was so frivolous. I just thought, get stronger, but lifting it right in the first place is really the first step to not getting injured. Mike: Don't life that into the trunk unless —Bill: Well unless you have to, right? For instance, practicing bad movements doesn't make you invulnerable to the bad movements, you're just wearing out your free passes. Now sport is a different animal, yes you're going to be — again, I don't think anyone is doing this, but there's enough wear and tear just in your sport, whether it's football, martial arts, running, why add more wear and tear from your workout that's there to support the sport. The original [Inaudible: 00:21:52] marketing pitch was look how efficient we made weight training, you can spend more time practicing. You don't have to spend four hours a day in the gym, you can spend a half hour twice a week or three times a week in the gym, and get back to practicing.Adam: I remember Greg [Inaudible: 22:06] said to a basketball coach that if his team is in his gym more than 20 minutes or so a week, that he's turning them into weight lifters and not basketball players.Bill: Well there you go. Now —Mike: The thing is the training and the performance goals in getting people stronger, faster, all that kind of stuff, is like unbelievable now a days, but I've never seen more injuries in sports in my entire life than right now.Bill: It's unbelievably bogus though is what it is. You see a lot of pec tears in NFL training rooms. Adam: So why aren't they learning? Why is it so hard to get across then?Bill: Well for starters, you're going to churn out — first of all you're dealing with twenty year olds. Adam: So what, what are you saying about twenty year olds?Bill: I was a lot more invincible at twenty than I am at sixty.Mike: Physically and psychologically.Bill: The other thing for instance. Let's say you've got a college level, this is not my experience, I'm repeating this, but if you have a weight room that's empty, or, and you're the strength and conditioning coach, because you're intensely working people out, briefly, every day. Versus the time they're idle, they're off doing their own thing. Or, every day the administrators and the coaches see people running hoops and doing drills, running parachutes and every day there is an activity going. What looks better? What is more job security for that strength and conditioning coach? Adam: Wait a second. What is Jim the strength training coach doing? He's working one day a week and what's he doing the rest of the week?Mike: And what's the team doing the rest of the week?Bill: But again, don't forget, if you're talking about twenty something year old athletes, who knows what that's going to bring on later.Adam: You are seeing more injuries though.Bill: Right. A couple of years ago, ESPN had a story on a guy. He had gotten injured doing a barbell step up, so a barbell step up, you put a barbell on your back, you step onto a bench, bring the other foot up. Step back off the bench, four repetitions. Classic sports conditioning exercise, in this guys case either he stepped back and twisted his ankle and fell with the bar on his back, or when he went to turn to put the bar back on the rack, when he turned, it spun on him and he damaged his back that way. Either way, he put his ability to walk at risk, so the ESPN story was, oh look how great that is he's back to playing. Yes, but he put his ability to walk at risk, to do an exercise that is really not significantly — it's more dangerous than other ways of working your legs, but it's not better.Adam: The coaches here, the physical trainers, they don't have evidence that doing step ups is any more effective in the performance of their sport, or even just pure strength gains. Then lets say doing a safe version of a leg press or even squats for that matter.Bill: And even if you wanted to go for a more endurance thing, running stadium steps was a classic exercise, but stadium steps are what, three or four inches, they made them very flat. Even that's safer because there's no bar on your back. So on the barbell step up, which I think is still currently in the NSCA textbooks, the bar is on your back. If the bench is too high, you have to bend over in order to get your center of gravity over the bench, otherwise you can't get off the floor. So now you're bent over with one foot in front of you, so now you don't even have two feet under you like in a barbell squat to be more stable. You have your feet in line, with the weight extending sideways, and now you do your twenty repetitions or whatever and you're on top of the bench, and your legs are burning and you're breathing heavy, and now you've got to get off. How do you get off that bench when your legs are gassed, you're going to break and lock your knee, and the floor is going to come up — nobody steps forward, they all step backwards where you can't see. Mike: Even after doing an exercise, let's say you did it okay or whatever and whether it was congruent or not congruent, sometimes, if it's a free weight type of thing, just getting the weight back on the floor or on the rack. After you've gone to muscle failure or close to muscle failure —Adam: So are these things common now, like still in the NFL they're doing these types of training techniques? Bill: I don't really know what's happening in the NFL or the college level, because frankly I stopped my NSCA membership because I couldn't use any material with my population anyway. So I don't really know what they are — I do know that that was a classic one, and as recently as 2014 — in fact one other athlete actually did lose his ability to walk getting injured in that exercise. Adam: It's cost benefit, like how much more benefit are you getting —Bill: It's cost. My point is that the benefit is — it's either or.Mike: That's the thing, people don't know it though, they think the benefit is there. That's the problem.Bill: They think that for double the risk, you're going to get quadruple the benefit. What, what benefit? What magic benefit comes out of putting your ability to walk at risk?Mike: One of my clients has a daughter who was recruited to row at Lehigh which is a really good school for that, and she, in the training program, she was recruited to go. She was a great student but she was recruited to row, and in the training program, she hurt her back in the weight room in the fall, and never, ever was with the team. This was a very, very good program — Bill: Very good program, so it's rowing, so a) it's rough on your lower back period, and b) I'm completely guessing here, but at one time they used to have their athletes doing [Inaudible: 00:28:22] and other things —Adam: Explain what a clean is —Bill: Barbells on the floor and you either pull it straight up and squat under the bar, which would be like an olympic clean, or you're a little more upright and you just sort of drag the bar up to your collarbones, and get your elbows underneath it. Either way it's hard on the back, but at one time, rowing conditioning featured a lot of exercises like that to get their back stronger, that they're already wearing out in the boat. They didn't ask me, but if I was coaching them, I would not train their lower backs in the off season. I would let the rowing take care of that, I would train everything around their back, and give their back a break, but they didn't ask.Adam: I don't know why they didn't ask you, didn't they know that you're a congruent exerciser?Bill: You've got to go to a receptive audience.Mike: I think because there are things we do in our lives that are outside, occasionally outside our range of motion or outside — that are just incongruent or not joint friendly, whether it's in sports or not. The thing is, I'm wondering are there exercises that go like — say for example you have to go — your sport asks for range of motion from one to ten, and you need to be prepared to do that, if you want to do that, the person desires to do that. Are there exercises where you go — can you be more prepared for that movement if you are doing it with a load or just a body weight load, whatever, up to say level four. Are there situations where it's okay to do that, where you're going a slight increase into that range where it's not comprising joint safety, and it's getting you a little bit more prepared to handle something that is going on.Adam: So for example, for a golf swing, when you do a golf swing, you're targeting the back probably more than you should in a safe range of motion in an exercise. I would never [Inaudible: 00:30:32] somebody's back in the exercise room to the level that you have to [Inaudible: 00:30:34] your back to play golf. So I guess what Mike is asking is is there an exercise that would be safe to [Inaudible: 00:30:41] the back, almost as much as you would have to in golf.Bill: I would say no. I would say, and golf is a good example. Now if you notice, nobody has their feet planted and tries to swing with their upper body.Mike: A lot of people do, that's how you hurt yourself.Bill: But any sport, tennis, throwing a baseball, throwing a punch. Get your hips into it, it's like standard coaching cliche, get your hips into it. What that does is it keeps you from twisting your back too much. In golf, even Tiger who was in shape for quite a while couldn't help but over twist and then he's out for quite a while with back problems.Mike: Yeah, his story is really interesting and complicated. He did get into kind of navy seal training and also you should see the ESPN article on that which really — after I read that I thought that was the big thing with his problems. Going with what you just said about putting your hips into it, I'm a golfer, I try to play golf, and I did the TPI certification. Are you familiar with that? I thought it was really wonderful, I thought I learned a lot. I wasn't like the gospel according to the world of biomechanics, but I felt like it was a big step in the right direction with helping with sports performance and understanding strength and mobility. One of the bases of, the foundation of it, they — the computer analysis over the body and the best golfers, the ones that do it very very efficiently, powerfully and consistently, and they showed what they called a [Inaudible: 00:32:38] sequence, and it's actually very similar, as you said, in all sports. Tennis, golf, throwing a punch, there's a sequence where they see that the people who do it really, really well, and in a panfry way, it goes hip first, then torso, then arm, then club. In a very measured sequence, despite a lot of people who have different looking golf swings, like Jim [Inaudible: 00:32:52], Tiger Woods, John Daley, completely different body types, completely different golf swings, but they all have the — if you look at them on the screen in slow motion with all the sensors all over their body, their [Inaudible: 00:33:04] sequence is identical. It leads to a very powerful and consistent and efficient swing, but if you say like if you have limitations in you mobility between your hips and your lumbar spine, or your lumbar spine and your torso, and it's all kind of going together. It throws timing off, and if you don't have those types of things, very slowly, or quickly, you're going to get to an injury, quicker than another person would get to an injury. The thing is, at the same time, you don't want to stop someone who really wants to be a good golfer. We have to give the information and this is a — people have to learn the biomechanics and the basic swing mechanics of a golf swing, and then there's a fitness element to it all. Are you strong enough, do you have the range of motion, is there a proper mobility between the segments of your body in order to do this without hurting yourself over time, and if there isn't, golf professionals and fitness professionals are struggling. How do I teach you how to do this, even though it's probably going to lead you to an injury down the line anyway. It's a puzzle but the final question is, what — I'm trying to safely help people who have goals with sports performance and without hurting them.Bill: First of all, any time you go from exercise in air quotes to sports, with sports, there's almost an assumption of risk. The person playing golf assumes they're going to hurt a rotator cuff or a back, or they at least know it's a possibility. It's just part of the game. Football player knows they could have a knee injury, maybe now they know they could have a concussion, but they just accept it by accepting it on the court or the turf. They walk into our studio, I don't think that expectation — they may expect it also, but I don't think it really belongs there. I don't think you're doing something to prepare for the risky thing. The thing you're doing to prepare for the risky thing shouldn't also be risky, and besides, let them get hurt on that guy's time, not on your time. I'm being a little facetious there, I don't buy the macho bullshit attitude that in order to challenge myself physically, I have to do something so reckless I could get hurt. That's just simply not necessary. If somebody says I want to be an Olympic weightlifter, I want to be a power lifter, just like if they want to be a mixed martial artist, well then you're accepting the fact that that activity is your priority. Not your joint health, not your safety. That activity is your priority, and again, nobody in professional sports is asking me, but I would so make the exercise as safe as possible. As safe as possible at first, then as vigorous as possible, and then let them take that conditioning and apply it to their sport.Adam: If a sport requires that scapulary traction at a certain time in a swing or whatever they're asking for, I don't really think that there's a way in the exercise room of working on just that. Scapular traction, and even if you can, it doesn't mean it's going to translate to the biomechanics and the neuro conditioning and the motor skill conditioning to put it all together. Bill: You can't think that much —Adam: I'm just thinking once and for all, if strong hips are what's important for this sport, a strong neck is what's important for this. If being able to rotate the spine is important and you need your rotation muscles for the spine, work your spine rotationally but in a very safe range of motion. Tax those muscles, let them recover and get strong so when you do go play your sport, lets say a golf swing, it's watching the videos and perfecting your biomechanics, but there's nothing I think you can do in the gym that is going to help you really coordinate all those skills, because you're trying to isolate the hip abductor or a shoulder retractor. Mike: Well I was going to say, I think isolating the muscles in the gym is fine, because it allows you to control what happens, you don't have too many moving parts, and this is kind of leading up to the conversational on functional training.Adam: Which is good even if you can do that. You might notice there's a weakness —Mike: Yeah but if you're going to punch, you don't think okay flex the shoulder, extend at the — Adam: There are a lot of boxers that didn't make it because they were called arm punchers. Bill: So at some point you can't train it. You need to realize gee that guy has good hip movement, let me direct him to this sport.Adam: So I think what Mike's asking is is there some kind of exercise you can do to turn an arm puncher, let's use this as an example, turn an arm puncher into a hip puncher? If you can maybe do something —Bill: I think it's practice though. Mike: I think there's a practice part of it. Going back to the golf swing, one of the things that they were making a big deal out of is, and it goes back to what we mentioned before, sitting at a desk and what's going on with our bodies. Our backs, our hips, our hamstrings. As a result of the amount of time that most of us in our lives have, and we're trainers, we're up on our feet all day, but a lot of people are in a seated position all the time. Adam: Hunched over, going forward.Mike: Their lower back is —Bill: Hamstrings are shortened, yeah.Mike: What is going on in the body if your body is — if you're under those conditions, eight to ten hours a day, five days a week. Not to mention every time you sit down in your car, on the train, have a meal, if you're in a fetal position. My point is, they made a big thing at TPI about how we spend 18-20 hours a day in hip flexion, and what's going on. How does that affect your gluten if you're in hip flexion 20 hours a day. They were discussing the term called reciprocal inhibition, which is — you know what I mean by that?Bill: The muscle that's contracting, the opposite muscle has to relax.Mike: Exactly, so if the hip is flexed, so as the antagonist muscle of the glue which is being shut off, and therefore —Bill: Then when you go to hip henge, your glutes aren't strong enough to do the hip henge so you're going to get into a bad thing.Mike: Exactly, and the thing as I said before —Adam: What are they recommending you do though?Mike: Well the thing is they're saying do several different exercises to activate the gluten specifically and —Adam: How is that different than just doing a leg press that will activate them?Mike: Adam, that's a good question and the thing is it comes back to some of the testimonials. When you deal with clients, often times if you put them on a leg press, they'll say I'm not feeling it in my glutes, I'm only feeling it in my quads, and other people will say, I'm feeling it a lot in my glutes and my hamstrings, and a little bit in my quads.Adam: But if they don't feel it in their glutes, it doesn't mean that their glutes aren't activated, for sure.Mike: Bill, what do you think about that?Bill: I think feel is very overrated in our line of work. I can get you to feel something but it's not — you can do a concentration curl, tricep kickback, or donkey kicks with a cuff, and you'll feel something because you're not — you're making the muscle about to cramp, but that's not necessarily a positive. As far as activating the glutes go, if they don't feel it on the leg press, I would go to the abductor machine. Mike: I mean okay, whether it's feel it's overrated, that's the thing that as a trainer, I really want the client to actually really make the connection with the muscle part.Bill: Well yeah, you have to steer it though. For instance, if you put somebody on the abductor machine and they feel the sides of their glutes burn, in that case, the feel matches what you're trying to do. If you have somebody doing these glute bridging exercises where their shoulders are on a chair and their hips are on the ground, knees are bent, and they're kind of just driving their hips up. You feel that but it's irrelevant, you're feeling it because you're trying to get the glutes to contract at the end of where — away from their strongest point. You're not taxing the glutes, you're getting a feeling, but it's not really challenging the strength of the glutes. So I think what happens with a lot of the approaches like you're describing, where they have half a dozen exercises to wake up the glutes, or engage them or whatever the phrase is.Mike: Activate, yeah.Bill:  There's kind of a continuity there, so it should be more of a progression rather than all of these exercises are valid. If you've got a hip abductor machine, the progression is there already.Mike: The thing is, it's also a big emphasis, it's going back to TPI and golf and stuff, is the mobility factor. So I think that's the — the strength is there often times, but there's a mobility issue every once in a while, and I think that is — if something is, like for example if you're very, very tight and if your glutes are supposed to go first, so says TPI through their [Inaudible: 00:42:57] sequence, but because you're so tight that it's going together, and therefore it's causing a whole mess of other things which might make your club hit the ground first, and then tension in the arms, tension in the back, and all sorts of things. I'm thinking maybe there are other points, maybe the mobility thing has to be addressed in relation to a golf swing, more so than are the glutes actually working or not.Bill: Well the answer is it all could be. So getting back to a broader point, the way we train people takes half an hour, twice a week maybe. That leaves plenty of time for this person to do mobility work or flexibility work, if they have a specific activity that they think they need the work in.Mike: Or golf practice.Bill:  Well that's what I'm saying, even if it's golf and even if — if you're training for strength once or twice a week, that leaves a lot of time that you can do some of these mobility things, if the person needs them. That type of program, NASM has a very elaborate personal trainer program, but they tend to equally weight every possible — some people work at a desk and they're not — their posture is fine. Maybe they just intuitively stretch during the day, so I think a lot of those programs try to give you a recipe for every possible eventuality, and then there's a continuum within that recipe. First we're going to do one leg bridges, then we're going to do two leg bridges, now we're going to do two leg bridges on a ball, now we're going to do leg bridges with an extra weight, now we're going to do two leg bridges with an elastic band. Some of those things are just progressions, there's no magic to any one of those exercises, but I think that's on a case by case basis. If the person says I'm having trouble doing the swing the way the instructor is teaching me, then you can pick it apart, but the answer is not necessarily weight training.Mike: The limitation could be weakness but it could be a mobility thing, it could be a whole bunch of things, it could be just that their mechanics are off.Bill: And it could just be that it's a bad sport for them. The other thing with postural issues, is if you get them when a person's young, you might be able to correct them. You get a person 60, 70, it may have settled into the actual joints. The joints have may have changed shape.Adam: We've got people with kyphosis all the time. We're going to not reverse that kyphosis. You have these women, I find it a lot with tall women. They grow up taller than everyone else in their class and they're shy so they end up being kyphotic because they're shy to stand up tall. You can prevent further degeneration and further kyphosis.Bill: Maybe at 20 or 25, if you catch that, maybe they can train out of it, but if you get it when it's already locked in, all you can do is not do more damage.Adam: So a lot of people feel and argue that machines are great if you want to just do really high intensity, get really deep and go to failure, but if you want to really learn how to use your body in  space, then free weights and body weight movements need to be incorporated, and both are important. Going to failure with machines in a safe manner, that might be cammed properly, but that in and of itself is not enough. That a lot of people for full fitness or conditioning if you will, you need to use free weights or body weight movements —Mike: Some people even think that machines are bad and only body weights should be done.Adam: Do you have an opinion about if one is better than the other, or they both serve different purposes and they're both important, or if you just use either one of them correctly, you're good.Bill: Let's talk about the idea that free weights are more functional than machines. I personally think it's what you do with your body that makes it functional or not, and by functional, that's —Adam: Let's talk about that, let's talk about functional training.Bill:  I'm half mocking that phrase.Adam: So before you even go into the question I just asked, maybe we can talk about this idea, because people are throwing around the expression functional training nowadays. So Crossfit is apparently functional training, so what exactly was functional training and what has it become?Bill: I don't know what they're talking about, because frankly if I've got to move a tire from point A to point B, I'm rolling it, I'm not flipping it. Adam: That would be more functional, wouldn't it.Bill: If I have to lift something, if I have a child or a bag of groceries that I have to lift, I'm not going to lift a kettle bell or dumbbell awkwardly to prepare for that awkward lift. In other words, I would rather train my muscles safely and then if I have to do something awkward, hopefully I'm strong enough to get through it, to withstand it. My thought was, when I started in 1982 or so, 84, 83, somewhere in the early 80s I started to train, most of us at the time were very influenced by the muscle magazines. So it was either muscle magazines, or the [Inaudible: 00:48:24] one set to failure type training, but the people that we were training in the early 80s, especially in Manhattan, they weren't body builders and they weren't necessarily athletes. So to train business people and celebrities and actors etc, like you would train an athlete seemed like a bad idea. Plus how many times did I hear, oh I don't want to get big, or I'm not going out for the Olympics. Okay fine, but then getting to what Mike said before, if someone has a hunched over shoulder or whatever, now you're tailoring the training to what the person is in front of you, to what is relevant to their life. 20 inch arms didn't fascinate them, why are you training them to get 20 inch arms? Maybe a trimmer waist was more their priority, so to my eye, functional training and personal training, back in the 80s, was synonymous. Somewhere since the 80s, functional training turned into this anti machine approach and functional training for sport was [Inaudible: 00:49:32] by a guy named Mike Boyle. His main point in there is, and I'm paraphrasing so if I get it wrong, don't blame him, but his point was as an athlete, you don't necessarily need to bench heavy or squat heavy or deadlift heavy, although it might be helpful, but you do need the muscles that hold your joints together to be in better shape. So all of his exercises were designed around rotator cuff, around the muscles around the spine, the muscles around the hips, the muscles around the ankles. So in his eye it was functional for sport, he was training people, doing exercises, so they would hold their posture together so that that wouldn't cause a problem on the field. That material was pretty good, went a little overboard I think in some ways, but generally it was pretty good, but then it kind of got bastardized as it got caught into the commercial fitness industry, and it just became an excuse for sequencing like a lunge with a curl with a row with a pushup, to another lunge, to a squat. It just became sort of a random collection of movements, justified as being functional, functional for what? At least Boyle was functional for sport, his point was to cut injuries down in sport. Where is the function in stringing together, again, a curl, to a press, to a pushup, to a squat, back to the curl, like one rep of each, those are more like stunts or feats of strength than they are, to me, exercise, Adam: So when you're talking about the muscles around the spine or the rotator cuffs, they're commonly known as stabilizer muscles, and when we talk about free weights versus machines, a lot of times we'll say something like, well if you want to work your stabilizer muscles, you need to use free weights, because that's how you work the stabilizer muscles. What would you say to that?Bill: I would say that if they're stabilizing while they're using the free weights, then they're using the stabilizer muscles, right?Adam: And if they're stabilizing while using a machine?Bill:  They're using their stabilizer muscles.Adam: Could you work out those stabilizer muscles of the shoulder on a machine chest press, the same way you can use strength in stabilizer muscles of the shoulder on a free weight bench press?Bill:  Yes, it's what your body is doing that counts, not the tool. So if someone is on a free weight…Mike: Is it the same though, is it doing it the same way? So you can do it both ways, but is it the same?Bill: If you want to — skill is very specific, so if you want to barbell bench press, you have to barbell bench press.Adam: Is there an advantage to your stabilizer muscles to do it with a free weight bench press, as opposed to a machine?Bill: I don't see it, other than to help the ability to free weight bench press, but if that's not why the person is training, if the person is just training for the health benefits of exercise to use it broadly, I don't think it matters — if you're on a machine chest press and you're keeping your shoulder blades down and back, and you're not buckling your elbows, you're voluntarily controlling the range of the motion. I don't see how that stabilization is different than if you're on a barbell bench press, and you have to do it the same way. Adam: You're balancing, because both arms have to work independently in a way.Bill:  To me that just makes it risky, that doesn't add a benefit.Mike: What about in contrast to lets say, a pushup. A bodyweight pushup, obviously there's a lot more going on because you're holding into a plank position which incorporates so many more muscles of your entire body, but like Adam and I were talking the other day about the feeling — if you're not used to doing pushups regularly, which Adam is all about machines and stuff like that, I do a little bit of everything, but slow protocol. It's different, one of our clients is unbelievably strong on all of the machines, we're talking like top 10% in weight on everything. Hip abduction, leg press, chest press, pull downs, everything, and this guy could barely do 8 limited range of motion squats with his body weight, and he struggles with slow pushups, like doing 5 or 6 pushups. 5 seconds down, 5 seconds up, to 90 degrees at the elbow, he's not even going past — my point is that he's working exponentially harder despite that he's only dealing with his body weight, then he is on the machines, in all categories.Bill:  So here's the thing though. Unless that's a thing with them, that I have to be able to do 100 pushups or whatever, what's the difference?Mike: The difference is —Adam: The question is why though. Why could he lift 400, 500 pounds on Medex chest press, he could hardly do a few pushups, and should he be doing pushups now because have we discovered some kind of weakness? That he needs to work on pushups?Bill: Yes, but it's not in his pecs and his shoulders.Mike: I'm going to agree, exactly.Bill:  The weakness is probably in his trunk, I don't know what the guy is built like. The weakness is in his trunk because in a pushup, you're suspending yourself between your toes and your arms.Adam: So somebody should probably be doing ab work and lower back extensions?Bill: No he should be doing pushups. He should be practicing pushups, but practicing them in a way that's right. Not doing the pushup and hyper extending his back, doing a pushup with his butt in the air. Do a perfect pushup and then if your form breaks, stop, recover. Do another perfect pushup, because we're getting back into things that are very, very specific. So for instance, if you tell me that he was strong on every machine, and he comes back every week and he's constantly pulling things in his back, then I would say yes, you have to address it.Mike: This is my observations that are more or less about — I think it's something to do with his coordination, and he's not comfortable in his own body. For example, his hips turn out significantly, like he can't put his feet parallel on the leg press for example. So if I ever have him do a limited range of motion lunge, his feet go into very awkward positions. I can tell he struggles with balance, he's an aspiring golfer as well. His coordination is — his swing is really, I hope he never listens to this, it's horrible. Adam: We're not giving his name out.Bill: Here's the thing now. You as a trainer have to decide, am I going to reconfigure what he's doing, at the risk of making him feel very incompetent and get him very discouraged, or do I just want to, instead of doing a machine chest press, say we'll work on pushups. Do you just want to introduce some of these new things that he's not good at, dribble it out to him a little bit at a time so it gives him like a new challenge for him, or is that going to demoralize him?Mike: He's not demoralized at all, that is not even on the table. I understand what you're saying, I think there are other people who would look at it that way. I think he looks at it as a new challenge, I think he knows — like we've discussed this very, very openly. He definitely — it feels like he doesn't have control over his body in a way. Despite his strength, I feel that — my instincts as a trainer, I want to see this guy be able to feel like he's strong doing something that is a little bit more — incorporates his body more in space than just being on a machine. If I'm measuring his strength based on what he can do by pressing forward or pulling back or squatting down, he's passed the test with As and great form. He does all the other exercises with pretty good form, but he's struggling with them. He has to work a lot harder in order to do it, and to be it's an interesting thing to see someone who lifts very heavy weights on the chest press and can barely do 4 slow pushups.Bill: Let's look at the pushups from a different angle. Take someone who could do pushups, who can do pushups adequately, strictly and all. Have another adult sit on their butt, all of a sudden those perfect pushups, even though probably raw strength could bench press an extra person, say, you can't do it, because someone who is thicker in the hips, has more weight around the hips, represented by the person sitting on their back, their dimensions are such that their hips are always going to be weighing them down. So that person's core — like a person with broader hips, in order to do a pushup, their core has to be much stronger than somebody with very narrow hips, because they have less weight in the middle of their body. So some of these things are a function of proportion.Adam: You can't train for it, in other words you can't improve it.Mike: Women in general have their center of gravity in their hips, and that's why pushups are very, very hard.Adam: I have an extremely strong individual, a perfect example of what you're talking about right now. I know people that are extremely, extremely strong, but some of these very, very strong individuals can do a lot of weight on a pullover machine, they can do a lot of weight on a pulldown machine, but as soon as you put them on the chin-up bar, they can't do it. Does that mean they're not strong, does that mean that they can't do chin-ups, that they should be working on chin-ups because we discovered a weakness? No, there's people for example who might have shitty tendon insertions, like you said about body weight and center of gravity, if they have really thick lower body. I notice that people who have really big, thick lower bodies, really strong people — or if they have really long arms, the leverage is different. So it begs the question, lets start doing chin-ups, yeah but you'll never proportionally get better at chin-ups, given your proportions, given your tendon insertions, given your length of your arms. So maybe Mike, this person is just not built to do push-ups and you're essentially just giving him another chest and body exercise that is not necessarily going to improve or help anything, because it's a proportional thing, it's a leverage thing. It's not a strength thing, especially if you're telling me he's so strong and everything else.Bill: The only way you'll know is to try.Mike: Well that's the thing, and that's what I've been doing. We just started it, maybe in the last month, and frankly both of us are excited by it. He's been here for a few years, and he is also I think starving to do something a little new. I think that's a piece of the puzzle as well, because even if you're coming once a week and you get results, it gets a little stale, and that's why I've tried to make an effort of making all the exercises we're doing congruent. Joint friendly, very limited range of motion, and the thing is, he's embracing the challenge, and he's feeling it too. I know the deal with soreness and stuff like that, new stimulus.Bill: In that case, the feeling counts, right? It doesn't always mean something good, it doesn't always mean something bad.Mike: Right, it is a little bit of a marketing thing. Adam: It's a motivator. It's nothing to be ashamed of for motivation. If pushups is motivating this guy, then do pushups, they're a great exercise regardless.Bill: Getting back to your general question about whether free weights lends itself to stabilizing the core better or not, if that's what the person is doing on the exercise, then it is. If the person is doing the pushup and is very tight, yes, he's exercising his core. If the person is doing the pushup and it's sloppy, one shoulder is rising up, one elbow to the side, it doesn't matter that it's a pushup —Adam: He's still not doing it right and he's still not working his core.Bill: Right, so it's really how the person is using their body that determines whether they're training their core appropriately, not the source of the resistance.Adam: I'm sorry, I've done compound rows with free weights in all kinds of ways over the years, and now I'm doing compound row with a retrofitted Medex machine, with a CAM that really represents pretty good CAM design and I challenge anyone to think that they're not working everything they need to work on that machine, because you've still got to keep your shoulders down. You've still got to keep your chest up, you still have to not hunch over your shoulders when you're lowering a weight. I mean there's a lot of things you've got to do right on a compound machine, just like if you're using free weights. I don't personally, I've never noticed that much of a benefit, and how do you measure that benefit anyway? How would you be able to prove that free weights is helping in one way that a machine is not, how do you actually prove something like that? I hear it all the time, you need to do it because you need to be able to —Mike: There's one measuring thing actually, but Bill —Bill: I was going to say, a lot of claims of exercise, a lot of the chain of thought goes like this. You make the claim, the result, and there's this big black box in the middle that — there's no  explanation of why doing this leads to this. Mike: If you made the claim and the result turns out, then yes it's correlated and therefore —Bill: I was going to say getting to Crossfit and bootcamp type things, and even following along with a DVD program, whatever brand name you choose. The problem I have with that from a joint friendly perspective is you have too many moving parts for you to be managing your posture and taking care of your joints. Especially if you're trying to keep up with the kettle bell class. I imagine it's possible that you can do certain kettle bell exercises to protect your lower back and protect your shoulders. It's possible, but what the user has to decide is how likely is it? So I know for me personally, I can be as meticulous as I want with a kettle bell or with a barbell deadlift, and at some point, I'm going to hurt myself. Not from being over ambitious, not from sloppy form, something is going to go wrong. Somebody else might look at those two exercises and say no, I'm very confident I can get this. You pay your money, you take your chance.Mike: As a measuring tool, sometimes you never know if one is better or worse but sometimes — every once in a while, even when we have clients come into our gym and you have been doing everything very carefully with them, very, very modest weight, and sometimes people say, you know Mike, I've never had any knee problems and my knees are bothering me a little bit. I think it's the leg press that's been doing it, ever since we started doing that, I'm feeling like a little bit of a tweak in my knee, I'm feeling it when I go up stairs. Something like that, and then one of the first things I'll do is like when did it start, interview them, try to draw some lines or some hypotheses as to what's going on. Obviously there might be some wear and tear in their life, almost definitely was, and maybe something about their alignment on the leg press is not right. Maybe they're right, maybe they're completely wrong, but one of the things I'll do first is say okay, we still want to work your legs. We still want to work your quads, your hamstrings, your glutes, let's try doing some limited range of motions squats against the wall or with the TRX or something like that, and then like hey, how are your knees feeling over the past couple weeks? Actually you know, much much better, ever since we stopped doing the leg press.Bill: Sometimes some movements just don't agree with some joints.Adam: There's a [Inaudible: 01:05:32] tricep machine that I used to use, and it was like kind of like —Bill: The one up here? Yeah.Adam: You karate chop right, and your elbows are stabilized on the pad, you karate chop down. It was an old, [Inaudible: 01:05:45] machine, and I got these sharp pains on my elbows. Nobody else that I trained on that machine ever had that sharp pain in their elbows, but it bothered the hell out of my elbows. So I would do other tricep extensions and they weren't ever a problem, so does that make that a bad exercise? For me it did.Bill: For you it did, but if you notice, certain machine designs have disappeared. There's a reason why those machine designs disappeared, so there's a reason why, I think in the Nitro line, I know what machine you're talking about. They used to call it multi tricep, right, okay, and your upper arms were held basically parallel, and you had to kind of karate chop down.Adam: It wasn't accounting for the carrying angle.Bill: I'll get to that. So your elbows were slightly above your shoulders, and you had to move your elbows into a parallel. Later designs, they moved it out here. They gave them independent axises, that's not an accident. A certain amount of ligament binding happens, and then —Adam: So my ligaments just were not coping with that very well.Bill: That's right. So for instance, exactly what joint angle your ligaments bind at is individual, but if you're going in this direction, there is a point where the shoulder ligaments bind and you have to do this. Well that machine forced us in the bound position, so when movement has to happen, it can't happen at the shoulder because you're pinned in the seat. It was happening in your elbow. It might not be the same with everybody, but that is how the model works.Adam: So getting back to your client on the leg press, like for instance — you can play with different positions too.Mike: Well the thing is, I'm trying to decipher some of — trying to find where the issues may be. A lot of times I think that the client probably just — maybe there's some alignment issues, IT bands are tight or something like that, or maybe there's a weak — there can be a lot of different little things, but the machines are perfect and symmetrical, but you aren't. You're trying to put your body that's not through a pattern, a movement pattern that has to be fixed in this plane, when your body kind of wants to go a little to the right, a little to the left, or something like that. It just wants to do that even though you're still extending and flexing. In my mind and

Fisher opens the show following up on last week's appearance by Susan Snyder who "planted her family flag" with a personal website devoted to her family that has attracted numerous other descendants, including Fisher himself. Both Fisher and Susan were delighted to receive an email from a Cincinnati listener who ties into three ancestral couples shared by both Fisher and Susan. David Allen Lambert, Chief Genealogist for the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org then talks about his experience at the Federation of Genealogical Societies Conference. He also shares news of the discovery of newly developed negatives of a World War I pilot killed in action in 1918. Where did the negatives come from and what do they show? David will tell you. David then jumps to the recent recognition of another aged World War II pilot who was known for more than just his military prowess. Wait until you hear what it is! Then there's word that BBC Scotland is looking for you if you had Scottish ancestors in Nova Scotia. David has all the particulars. David's Tip this week concerns a new app that allows you to snap a pic and have it go out as an old fashioned post card! He'll also have another great free guest user database from NEHGS. Next, Fisher talks to genealogical speaker, researcher, and writer Loretta Evans about "circumstantial evidence" in genealogy. How is it defined exactly and how can it help you "nail down" the line you're researching. Loretta has some great insight and advice. Fisher then visits with Bill Habermann of Tacoma, Washington. Bill has "adopted" over 1,600 people... all dead... in an overgrown local cemetery, and he's doing all he can to let you know who they are. What got Bill started on this and what has the response been? You'll love the story. Then Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com returns to talk preservation. Tom answers a listener question from South Carolina about using a national digitizing firm because no one provides the service locally. As usual, Tom has some great thoughts on protecting your most important family history assets. That's all this week on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show!   Transcript of Episode 156 Segment 1 Episode 156 (00:30) Fisher: And welcome to Extreme Genes! This is America’s Family History Show. My name is Fisher. I am the Radio Roots Sleuth, on the program where we shake your family tree, and watch the nuts fall out. Nice to have you along today. We’ve got some great guests. First of all coming up in about eight or nine minutes we’re going to talk to Loretta Evans. And Loretta talks about the use of “circumstantial evidence” when you’re trying to put together your family tree. How do you know that it’s really good enough? What can you use it for? She’s going to have that for you coming up a little bit later on. After that, we’re going to talk to Bill Habermann he is up in the Seattle, Tacoma area, and he has adopted 1,600 people. All dead. In a cemetery! And you can do the same kind of thing. He’ll tell you what he’s doing and how he’s helping people all around the country, in fact around the world, find some of their missing relatives in the Washington State area. But right now, let me get on to Boston and my good friend David Allen Lambert. He is the Chief Genealogist for the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org, fresh back from the Federation of Genealogical Societies conference in Springfield, Illinois. How are you David? David: I’m doing good. It’s nice to be back on the ground in Beantown. Fisher: I’ll bet. And you had a good time there? David: We had a great time. And I want to let people know who go to conferences, no matter where it is, don’t be ashamed of wearing a lot of ribbons on your badge. Fisher: Really? Yours is practically like a loin cloth when you’re out there. [Laughs] David: Well I like to say maybe a shawl. [Laughs] Fisher: [Laughs] David: I had thirty-two ribbons on it and when I went to the Federation of Genealogical Societies gala’s 40th anniversary dinner, they had trivia and they also had a scavenger hunt. Fisher: Um hmm. David: 150 points for the longest badge put us over the top! Fisher: [Laughs] David: Myself and Mary Tedesco from Genealogical Roadshow, one of our friends and guests, all won over a thousand dollars in memberships and conference registrations and meals, we’re very, very happy. Fisher: Wow! David: So, laughing my way to the bank for the longest name badge at the Federation of Genealogical Societies and I’d do it again. Fisher: [Laughs] Unbelievable. I’ve got to tell you a story. Last week we had Susan Snyder on the show and she is the lady that set up a website and we talked about it, we did the whole segment about planting your family flag basically out there for people to find you and provide you with materials, and she’s had Bible pages sent to her and things relating to her direct ancestors. Things folks sold her or gave to her. She found me because we’re related. Well we had her on the show, and then the next day she gets a nice email from a guy, a listener in Cincinnati, Ohio, who said, “Hey, we’re related to!” and so now she’s exchanging information with him and I just love the way the show brings people together. David: It’s amazing. Just last week I got a person who has an oil painting of my third great grandfather’s sister born in 1772, and he was not really sure if his family will want it. So I told him I would give her a good home. Fisher: Yeah [Laughs] great! Wow. Hopefully you get that and when you do, send us the picture. We’d all love to see it. David: Hopefully it will be in my home some day. But I don’t want to wish him to meet his maker any time soon of course. [Laughs] Fisher: Of course. Hey what do you have for us today in our Family Histoire news, David? David: Well, the exciting story that I want to start off with is actually about photographs taken a hundred years ago by Captain William Chambers of the 49th Squadron in Kent, England. He was a recognisance photographer in World War I and was shot down in 1918 at the ripe old age of twenty-one. His camera and negatives eventually were passed on to his nephew who recent had them developed. It’s amazing! There are pictures of airplanes and pilots and people that have long since passed. But it gives us another fresh view on history from World War I a century later. Fisher: That’s incredible. What a great story. David: It really is. And I want to propose a toast to the subject of this next story. Second Lieutenant Donald Stinson now aged 93, received four Bronze Stars for his service in World War II, involving bringing guns and men and flying them to the front lines in Japan during the war. But one of the things he did, which is a light hearted note, he is responsible for bringing beer. Fisher: What? [Laughs] David: Twenty thousand cases of beer to thirsty soldiers in multiple “packiruns” if you will, to Australia and New Guinea. And I think that anyone who is a veteran could probably drink to that. Fisher: Wow, that’s great! Congratulations to him. That’s like the second week in a row we’ve had a story of a World War II vet in their 90s just getting their medals now. What is going on? David: It’s about time. It really is. Well I’ll tell you, going back a little ways to the days of immigration and to the east coast, Nova Scotia, which means New Scotland was settled by many people from the Highlands. In 1773 a vessel called “The Hector” brought 189 highlanders that disembarked and were changed in Nova Scotia forever. Now, BBC in Scotland is looking for the descendants. So if your ancestor came to Nova Scotia from Scotland perhaps on the Hector in 1773, there are passenger lists that exist, contact BBC in Scotland. Just check Extreme Genes.com. Our Facebook page will have more details for you. Fisher: That’s very cool. So the people from old Scotland are looking for the descendants of the people in New Scotland, Nova Scotia, to call back home. David: To old Scotland. Fisher: Yeah. David: New Scotland, old Scotland, it gets confusing. But BBC Scotland is obviously doing a little piece on it, so put your kilt on and go and contact them. Fisher: [Laughs] David: One of the things that I really enjoy is a good tip from a listener, and one of our listeners and someone who’s been on the show is the Photo Detective Maureen Taylor. Fisher: Yes. David: While I was in Springfield, she told me about a new type of app that she uses from the app store. There’s a variety of choices to choose from but it basically allows you to send a postcard. Take a picture with your smart phone, this company, for very cheap money, will print and mail mailable postcards for you for your relatives. So the old photo postcards you might have in your family archives, you can create new ones. Fisher: How cool is that! David: It really is. So that brings me to the NEHGS guest user database of the week which harkens back to Scotland again. We now have Scotland marriages 1561 to 1910 and Scotland births and baptisms from 1564 to 1950, in conjunction with our partnership with FamilySearch.org. Well that’s all I have for this week back here in Beantown. Talk to you soon my friend! Fisher: All right, great to talk to you again as always David. We’ll talk to you again next week. This segment of our show has been brought to you from MyHeritage.com. And coming up next, we’re going to talk to a woman named Loretta Evans. And Loretta is an instructor, she’s a researcher, and she’s got some thoughts on “circumstantial evidence.” Now, we hear people talk about it in the courtroom... does circumstantial evidence really prove a case? Well, in genealogy it actually can. And she’ll give you some examples of that and give you some other thoughts coming up in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show. Segment 2 Episode 156 (11:10) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Loretta Evans Fisher: One of my favorite shows growing up was Perry Mason. And, Perry would get into heated battle in the courtroom with the prosecutor, Hamilton Burger. “Ham Burger” was what he was called. And they’d say, “Well, Mr Mason, that’s just circumstantial evidence!” And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. When it comes to developing your family history and your family tree, how does circumstantial evidence work in there and does it really matter? Is circumstantial evidence really evidence? It is Fisher. This is Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. And my guest today is Loretta Evans, and Loretta specializes in researching the midwestern United States, and she speaks all over the place, and she’s written articles for all the big family history magazines. And Loretta’s in Idaho Falls, Idaho. Nice to have you on the show, Loretta! Loretta: Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Fisher: You know, I’m excited about this idea of helping people understand that circumstantial evidence really is evidence, and in some cases is very, very strong evidence. So let’s just start with some simple examples of what circumstantial evidence is that we may typically use all the time, right? Loretta: Right. For example, if you have a census record, and you have someone’s age, it isn’t proof of the year they were born. It gives you an approximate year they were born. Fisher: That’s right. Loretta: But it’s sort of depends on who gave the information out. If it was the mother, and this is the child, they’re pretty sure about the age of their children. But if it was a neighbor or a grandparent, they may be a few years off. Or if somebody had a reason to lie, a lot of women lied about their age in censuses, so you can’t. Fisher: I am so glad you said that! Because it’s not something that I can easily say, Loretta! [Laughs] But it is true. For some reason, more with women than anybody else, I’m just sorry, it’s just the way it is. They get younger as they get older! Have you picked up on that? Loretta: I have. In fact, somebody told me, but it may or may not be true, that someone had done a study of British censuses and they found that the average British woman aged about seven years between the ten year census records! Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: And you know, in a sense if you want someone’s more accurate age, find them when they’re very young or very old. Fisher: Yeah, that’s right. Loretta: And they’re more likely to be honest about it. Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs] Absolutely! Well that’s a great example of circumstantial evidence. Give us some examples though, of course, of direct evidence. Just for the sake of comparison. Loretta: Okay. For direct evidence, on a death certificate, usually the person’s name, their gender, the date they died, the place they died, those are all directly given by the doctor in charge or the person who is giving the information. You can be very comfortable about those pieces of information. Fisher: Right, as long as the people really knew what they were talking about. Loretta: Correct. But for example, the birth date on a death certificate is a little bit suspect. Fisher: Right. Loretta: If it’s a baby that dies and the mother gives the information, yeah, I’d be very comfortable with that. But I had a great grandfather who died in Cleveland, Ohio in about 1900, and I’m thinking he was living in a boarding house because they got his name wrong, they got his birth place wrong, they got his age wrong. It took us a long time to convince the city of Cleveland that he really was the same person. Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: And that we could put a headstone on his grave. Fisher: And so what you’re saying is, for a death, a death certificate is direct evidence. But a death certificate is circumstantial as far as their birth is concerned? Loretta: That’s true. Or their parents names or their parents’ birth places, they’re wonderful clues. Fisher: Yes. Loretta: And so, if you are a researcher, you take those clues and then you try to find other documents that can prove or disprove that piece of information. And then you can be more comfortable whether it’s accurate or not. I think any evidence in genealogy is accurate until the next piece of information comes along that might prove or disprove it. Fisher: Right. Loretta: Somebody said it was like washing dishes. You’re all done, and then somebody walks in with another dirty glass. Fisher: [Laughs] Wow. That’s not very attractive at all. Loretta: [Laughs] I’m sorry. That image is, you know, you think you’re done, and then somebody gives you additional information that might even call into question what you think is accurate. Fisher: Sure. Loretta: I had two brothers. One born in 1944 and one born in 1950, and they both died at birth. And they were both born on July 12th. And in our family that was this kind of a “tender mercy.” “Oh, they had the same birth date.” And when the cemetery records came online, my older brother Ralph was listed as having been born on July 11th. Fisher: Oh boy. Loretta: And it was in the family Bible. There were no birth or death certificates because they were stillborn. They’re on the headstone. They carved it on the stone. Fisher: [Laughs] Right. Loretta: They forgot it being July 12th. And my mother didn’t really care, and my brother didn’t care, but it drove me crazy. And, I finally got my mother’s hospital records because some mortuary records didn’t exist anymore, and she was in her 90s and she just sighed and signed the permission slip. “Yes, you can release my hospital records from 1944.” Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: Anyway, I got it from a place in California that had taken all of the records and they were sold there. Anyway, the hospital actually was in Utah. But he was born on July 11th. The headstone is wrong, our family Bible is wrong. Although they were born close to the same day it wasn’t exactly the same day. Fisher: Yeah. I’ve seen this before. We have a family Bible that gives the death date of my great, great grandfather, and even the obituary said December 26th 1875. But the death record said December 27th. And it appears that what happened was that he died at home, late in the evening on the 26th, but the doctor probably didn’t show up till after midnight, because the death time was put down as 12:30 in the morning. Or, they just didn’t recognize that it was a new day, at the point that he’d passed. Loretta: You know, that kind of thing happens. My uncle was born near midnight at home, and nobody looked at the clock until after he was born, but he could have been born before midnight. Nobody ever really knows. They chose one of the days and put it on the birth certificate. Fisher: Here’s another sample of a circumstantial situation that came up. I tracked down a third great grandmother, and I was very fortunate that somebody had actually been able to come up with a family Bible that put her in the family. And, it was from this very same area, so I was pretty confident. But still, how could I know for sure that she was the only person of that name from that area? And so, circumstantial evidence often involves eliminating other possibilities. I think you’d agree. Loretta: Oh, very definitely. You not only have to try to find evidence proving what you have, but you’ve got to look for are there any other possibilities that this could be, and can you prove or disprove those other possibilities. Fisher: And one of the things that’s really helpful now with circumstantial evidence, and when you have a case like this... DNA. And I was very fortunate that suddenly I found a person matching me in DNA who descended from the brother of the person I thought it to be, from a grandfather of the person I thought it to be, and a great grandfather of the person I thought it to be. Which I felt was very good confirming evidence of this otherwise circumstantial case. Loretta: That is excellent. Yeah. Fisher: So you put these things all together and then you get the confirmation, several times hopefully, from DNA. And then you can put together your case and you know, “Hey, wait a minute, I’ve got something here I can be confident in.” And that’s maybe at the point where you can publish it or put it online and share it with other people. I don’t know how you feel about it, Loretta. I like to put things together first of all on my own, keep it to myself, until I’m really, really confident in what I’ve got before I really share it. Because, as we know, once something goes public, if you’re wrong, it will take on a life of its own and live for years and years and years. And it’s really difficult ever to get rid of it. Loretta: Oh, that is definitely true. There are two major places where people put pedigrees. FamilySearch.org, another is Ancestry. The difference is that Ancestry keeps each person’s pedigree separate. Fisher: Yep. Loretta: Where FamilySearch combines everything. And your cousin could come along and change things in a while. So yes, you do want to be pretty comfortable with what you’re putting out there before you submit it. Because you could take two people who live in the same area, who have similar names and make them into one person, and make it very, very difficult in years to come for somebody to separate those two individuals. Fisher: Yeah, that’s the problem. So, that’s why it’s really important to work the negative side. Try to disprove that it’s the person as well as trying to prove it. And maybe get a little DNA help as well. And at the end, your circumstantial evidence can really prove your case. Loretta: One example we had about somebody walking in with another dirty glass... Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: ...where we had a photograph that was of this woman who had died in Winter Quarters, Iowa. And, my husband and I visited a distant cousin one evening and she had another copy of the photograph. But it was a larger copy and somebody had copied the name of the photography studio as well as the image, and this picture was taken by Ottinger’s in Salt Lake City, Utah. Well, the woman couldn’t have died in Winter Quarters and had her picture taken in Ottinger’s in Salt Lake City because he wasn’t in business at that time. Fisher: Right. Loretta: And he was half a continent away. Fisher: Yeah! Loretta: And so, we concluded that it was the step grandmother rather than the grandmother that was in the picture. Fisher: Interesting. Well, there you go. Always making a few adjustments along the way, right? Loretta: Oh, absolutely. And, any genealogist who is afraid that somebody is going to disprove all the things they’ve worked so hard for isn’t really open enough to be a really good genealogist. Fisher: The experts are often wrong. And the best ones will go back and correct their own errors. Clean up their own mess and wash their own glasses, right? [Laughs] Loretta: [Laughs] There you go. Fisher: Hey, Loretta, delight to talk to you today. Loretta Evans, she’s in Idaho Falls, Idaho, talking about circumstantial evidence. Is it real? Is it good? Can you use it? The answer is yes! Thanks so much for coming on. Loretta: I’ve enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Fisher: And this segment has been brought to you by 23andMe.com DNA. And coming up next, we’ll talk to a Washington State man who has adopted 1,600 people. They’re all dead! They’re in a cemetery! He’s getting the word out about who they are, and you’re going to want to hear his story in five minutes. Segment 3 Episode 156 (24:50) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Bill Habermann Fisher: Welcome back to Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here, the Radio Roots Sleuth, and part of my sleuthing has to do with tracking down people with interesting stories that I know might interest you. And this is a guy who I think is inspiring a lot of people around the country since his story broke recently in the Tacoma News Tribune. His name is Bill Habermann. And Bill, you work for a funeral company, yes? Bill: I do. Piper, Marley, Malinger and Oakwood are all tied together as one funeral home. Fisher: And yet, this all spills over into your hobby, as it turns out. You found a cemetery out in the middle of nowhere. I guess it's been grown over, and you've kind of adopted it. Tell us about this. Bill: Well, back in the 1880s when the Northern Pacific Railroad came out west and put a terminus here in Tacoma, they gave about 56 acres to the city for a cemetery. And back in those days, folks didn't want the cemeteries near the town, and so it ended up being out in the sticks, kind of. Well, then that cemetery became Old Tacoma Cemetery and was divided up into three parcels. One stayed as Old Tacoma Cemetery, or Tacoma Cemetery, somehow, and I haven't been able to find out how a portion of about eight acres became Oakwood Cemetery, and then off to the side of the two cemeteries. There are two acres that became the county's pauper cemetery. Fisher: And that kind of got overgrown and forgotten, apparently. Bill: Well, yes. And I gave tours of Oakwood several times, and people would ask me during the tour, "Well, what is that on the other side of the fence? I see a few headstones there, but it's pretty much just grass." And then I said, "Well, that's the county's cemetery which was closed in 1927, and there really aren't a lot of records around for it." Fisher: Now why is that? Bill: Well, I think back in the early days people just were not so record conscious as they are now. And either that or they wrote on a slip of paper and thought, "Well, I'll put it in the book sometime." And it didn't happen. Or the county said, "Well, it's up to the funeral homes to take care of the records because they're putting the bodies into the cemetery." They were each paid $4.50 per burial. So some of the cemetery records probably are just lost totally with the county, but I was fortunate enough to have the records for Piper Funeral Home which started here in 1908, and Malinger which started here in 1883. Fisher: They merged at one point. Bill: Well, they merged at one point, yeah. And then what I did, I just got curious and I looked up the folks who had some headstones and found some of them in our records and started putting that down. Somebody said, "Why don't you put this on FindAGrave because people might want to look up somebody." And I thought, "Oh, okay." And I started doing that and then going through all the ledgers here, I just came up with 1,600 folks that are... Fisher: Wow! 1600? Bill: Yeah. And that was at the time Karen did the article. Now I'm up to 1,626. Fisher: [Laughs] Of course. There's always progress. Now, would you find the names in the ledgers first? Or would you find the tombstones first and then try to track them down in the ledgers? Bill: Well, the initial 15 headstones or so, I looked for them in the ledgers, but then I just started with page one of the Piper book and looked through every page, a page at a time, and if I saw $4.50, that was a first give away that it was somebody that went into the pauper's cemetery. Fisher: Interesting. So it didn't mention the cemetery, it was the price that gave it away? Bill: Yeah, it's the price that always gets me to the page, right. Fisher: Oh, that's fascinating. So when did you start this project, and what has kept you going, and how often do you go there? Bill: Well, I started doing in on FindAGrave about six years ago. The people who own or are in control of the cemetery really don't want folks walking around in there, because several of the graves are sunk in pretty badly, because folks were put into wooden boxes and into concrete grave liners. So they tend to like to leave it looking a little rough, as it said in the newspaper article, so that everybody isn't cramming around in there looking for things. The headstones even are in such disarray sort of that I have not been able to figure out even the rows or the blocks or the plot numbers, like we have in our cemetery, to locate a specific person. And some of those folks might not even be anywhere near the headstone that's standing there. Fisher: Right. So the tombstone itself is the giveaway of who's in there, but you just don't know where the grave itself might be? Bill: Yes, right. Fisher: Wow. Bill: And some of them face east and west, and some of them face north and south, and some of them look like they could be in a row, but others have been marked just set kind of whacky. There are two Japanese headstones there that face no particular direction, you know, they're kind of out in the middle of nowhere. Those two fascinated me because periodically when I'd look over the fence I would see fresh flowers put on those two graves, and they're back from the early 1900s, and sometimes there would be small food offerings there also at those two graves. I haven't seen anything there for the last two years, but somebody was coming in there and still honoring their deceased family members. Fisher: That's amazing. Now, what have you learned about the people that are buried in there? Have you found some unusual or interesting stories about them? Bill: Yeah. There is one fellow that still kind of plagues me. His name is Taggart, and his story is sort of interesting in that he was a well known supposedly wealthy person here to Tacoma back in the early 1900s. And sad to say, his wife became insane and went to the hospital for the insane. While he, in the mean time, lost all his money, regained some money, lost it again, ended up living at the poor farm, and apparently he decided to try to commit suicide by cutting his throat with a straight razor. Well, the hospital saved him, but then ultimately shortly after, he died of pneumonia, which got a lot of people back in those days. Fisher: Sure. Bill: His headstone looks like a military headstone. I checked in the Civil War records and there are so many Patrick Taggards that I kind of lost track of did he really deserve a military headstone. But it's not carved in the way of any military headstones that I've ever found online. So he's kind of a curiosity for me. I really would like to get him a new headstone if he is military, but again, I almost run into a brick wall. Fisher: Sure. And that's the problem with common names, of course. So what about families? Have other families reached out to you from near and far to say, "Hey, you found my person I've been looking for!" Bill: Yes. I've gotten some thank you letters from folks, and on FindAGrave, they can correspond back and forth with me, and so they have thanked me and some folks have sent me information to add into my book. There's an infant that died I think age about three weeks, and the family didn't know whether the child was buried. They were so happy to find where the child was, and they sent me a copy of the baptism certificate for this infant. Although that's the only existing document there is, other than the fact that the child is somewhere in those two acres. Fisher: So, what about restoration of the cemetery? You're allowed in there and you're saying others are not, is there any interest in that on behalf of the owners or on the part of the owners to do this? Bill: I don't think so because it probably would be very costly, first of all, to mould the place and keep the grass looking nice, because here in summer everything turns yellow and dries up. The cemetery that they do own, Old Tacoma, is watered all the time with underground sprinklers, and they have their own wells, but I'm sure that they are not interested in spending probably thousands and thousands of dollars to make the cemetery look presentable. Fisher: You would think that people would have to adopt it, I guess, the descendants of those who are in there, if that was ever going to happen, right? Bill: Yeah. And because it's privately owned by Tacoma Cemetery, I don't think that they could even work that. It kind of would be a real conundrum. Fisher: Sure. He's Bill Habermann. He's a funeral director in Tacoma, Washington, and he has adopted his own cemetery up there and is getting the information he's finding up on FindAGrave. Bill, thank you so much for doing this! And I'm sure you're inspiring others who might want to take on the same kind of project wherever they are. Bill: I hope so. And thanks for the call! Fisher: Hey, this segment of our show has been brought to you by LegacyTree.com. And coming up next, we'll talk preservation with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. It's time to be getting ready for the holidays. He's got more great advice, coming up for you in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show. Segment 4 Episode 156 (37:10) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry Fisher: And welcome back to Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. It Is Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth with my good friend Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. He is our Preservation Authority. And Tom, good to have you back. Tom: Good to be here. Fisher: And we do have an email here from Richard Halter, and I believe it’s pronounced Sharon, South Carolina. And he said, “Fisher and Tom, I saw this ad on Facebook and my mind immediately jumped to all I’ve learned from your shows.” Now, he sent us a link to another digitizing firm that’s national. And he said, “My first thought was that they’re not going to do everything that Tom says to look for when getting your products digitized. And the same time though, I live in an area where there isn’t anything available other than big box stores which I don’t even like. Would you recommend something like this store as an option for someone who just wants to get the media digitized? I can do pictures and I’ve played with audio as well as slides and negatives and I’m getting better. I can also take video and convert it from DVD, CD and all this, as long as I can get it to the PC to work on. I’m not a professional to say the least, but I do the best I can and I’m getting better as I go. I’m a very big proponent of getting all of these memories digitized and I’d like to give people some options for things I cannot complete yet. Your loyal listener, Richard.” Tom: That’s a great email that you’ve sent us. You know, there’s a lot of things in here that are really great. I love how you want to get all your stuff digitized. You’re trying to do as much as you can which we really advocate, and then some of the things of course you can’t do. Now this place that you mentioned, I can’t really say whether they’re good or bad because I’ve asked listeners in the past, if you have good experiences with places whether they’re local or national let us know. If you have bad experiences locally or national, let us know also so that we can warn people or encourage people to go to these places. This is one that I’ve never received any information on. I’ve checked out the website, it seems legit and everything looks nice, beautiful website. They’re about the middle to high end which sometimes is good, sometimes it’s bad. Because most of the time when you see these real cheap things, you’re getting what you pay for, and it’s not very good. So they have a fair price, the price is a little higher than what we charge on our online store. But if it’s closer to you and you feel more comfortable doing it, what I would do is, always start with the smallest package kind of as a test drive and see if you’re happy with what they do. And then of course send in all your other stuff and if you’re happy let us know. Fisher: Sure. Right. And testing is a key thing. And I would imagine, aren’t there ratings involved with this somewhere online that he could check out? Tom: You know, there really should be, and I’ve thought about this before getting out there and doing some experiments with some of these different places and actually go in and give them multi-star ratings. So that’s something we’re looking at maybe in 2017, we might actually come out with a rating system. But we really need our listeners to let us know where they’ve had good experiences and bad experiences. And let us know places that they’ve used so that we can maybe start doing a rating system. I really encourage you use local places as much as you want. Use national places if you find out they’re good. You can go to shop.TMCPlace.com and get our prices. And usually if people are close to what our prices are they’re probably legit because they’re doing the right thing. If they’re way below, I say stay away. It’s not worth it. I’ve run into so much product places like that. Fisher: That’s the thing. This is not the kind of thing you really want to price shop on so much. I mean, if it’s too cheap to be true, it’s probably too cheap to be true, Tom. Tom: That is so true! [Laughs] Fisher: [Laughs] Tom: Yeah, you need to be careful. One thing that I really advocate that I think is really, really important which we have never gone into because I don’t like it. A lot of transfer places, they use high speed. So instead of like a VHS tape taking two hours to transfer, they can transfer it in 15 to 20 minutes because they’re doing it high speed which reduces your fidelity. Fisher: Of course. Tom: You know if it didn’t do that everybody would be doing it. We would do it. We could drop our prices way down. However, we wouldn’t be giving our clients the quality that they want. You know, if you’re in a situation where money is really, really tight and it’s that or nothing. It’s still scary, because I have people who come in to me and say, “Hey, we sent it to this place online that’s really cheap. We didn’t get our stuff back. Or it came back really bad. They told us our tape is bad.” And then we had to go and “undo” what the other people did. Fisher: All right. Well, what do we have coming up in the next segment here, Tom? Tom: We’re going to talk about some scanning parties we’re planning. Fisher: All right, we’ll get to that in about three minutes. This segment has been brought to you by Forever.com. And if you have a question for Tom Perry you can always write to him at AskTom@TMCPlace.com and you might get to hear your question answered on the air. From Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show. Segment 5 Episode 156 (44:20) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry Fisher: And we are back, final segment of Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com, Preservation Time with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. Tom, you were just talking about a scanning party you've got coming up. And let's just explain to people first of all what a scanning party is. Tom: Okay. It’s a lot of fun. It’s not a MRI or CRT or anything like that. Fisher: [Laughs] Right. Tom: What we do is, we scan your photographs. So this is where anybody can bring in one of those sterilight 16 quart shoeboxes with the lid on. Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs] Tom: And you can pack it with your 3x3 up to 8x10 non-damaged, non-mounted, loose photos, and we can scan the whole box for you for twenty five bucks. Fisher: Wow! Tom: So it's an absolute killer deal. Fisher: And fast too, right? Tom: Oh yeah! Oh yeah! It's really fast! It’s amazing! But that's why they can't be mounted or anything like that. They need to be all organized. If you have multiple sizes, just organize your sizes together. And bring your own thumb drive. And there's no additional charge. If you want, we have 16GB flash drives for only ten bucks. Fisher: Now where are you going to be doing this? Tom: The first one we are doing is November 11th and 12th in Midway, Utah. That's kind of up in the mountains, a beautiful ski resort area. Fisher: Wow! That's going to be great. Okay, so you have a location there. Tom: Right. Fisher: So people who would be in the Utah area would go where in Midway? Tom: It’s going to be at the Homestead Resort. It’s all part of the FamilyHistoryExpos.com convention that they're having, those two days which we talked about, about a month ago. So if you want to sign up for the convention, you can come in and do that. You can come in for the scanning party. It’s going to be a lot of fun. Remember, it needs to be up to 8x10 and it’s got to be in sterilight box with the lid on. No great big posters. We won't be able to do anything like that at this time. Fisher: All right, but you can do stuff that's small, very small. Tom: Oh yeah! We can go all the way down to 3x3 as long as they're in good condition. And if you have some pictures that are starting to fade and things like that, don't think, "Oh, I can't do these." No, this is a good time to do your faded ones, because we're going to stop them from fading anymore. We'll give you a digitized copy of all of them. And then whether you want to do it next week or next year or ten years from now, you'll have the high definition file that you can go in and do color correction. Or if you say, "Hey, this is over my head. I don't want to be involved in it." You can email it back to us and then we can do the color correction as well. Fisher: Now what kind of dpi are we talking about? Tom: It’s usually about 1200 dpi. Fisher: Oh that's good! Tom: Oh yeah! It’s a really high dpi. Fisher: It’s solid, yeah. So I've done this recently, of course, I've gone ahead, all of my old home movies and videos digitized. So I've got like 110 of them on disk. I don't even know what's on them all, because I didn't even know what was on the videos when I gave them to you in the first place. The joy of it, though, is I can take them one at a time, maybe one a week, right, and transfer it in some way and edit it down to just each individual thing. We'll, here's a birthday on this video, that's separate from the time we got to meet Joe DiMaggio over here or something like that. I mean, you can separate them all out. And so, with photographs, it would be much the same. You can digitize them all. And then when you get around to it, you're there. And what a great opportunity this is… Midway, Utah, November 11th? Tom: 11th and 12th, correct. Just go to FamilyHistoryExpos.com and you can sign up for the convention if you want to go to that as well. And just remember, like you just mentioned, it’s good to get this stuff done. And I've even had people tell me that they're going to go on a long trip, so they get videos, photos, all these things scanned, and then they sit in the back with the kids and put the DVD in, and they're sitting there writing notes. So when they're driving down the highway they can sit there and watch the thing, instead of watching Aladdin or something with their kids. They can say, "Oh, yeah, this is grandma." and talk to their kids. And make sure you have your iPhone or a tape recorder running, so when you're explaining all this stuff to your kids, you've got it down. And then later on you can make a slideshow with your narration for your great, great grandkids who will never know you, but they'll be able to hear your voice describing who these people are in the photos, who they are in the videos. It just makes it so nice. Fisher: Boy! What a great idea! And you know, trapping the kids, I love that! [Laughs] Tom: [Laughs] It’s great! We're going to be doing a whole bunch this next year in 2017 working with our Going Postal stores. So we're going to have a lot of fun in 2017. Fisher: All right, Tom. Thanks for dropping by. See you next week. Tom: We'll be there. Fisher: And this segment of the show has been brought to you by FamilySearch.org and RootsMagic.com. Hey, thanks again to our guest, Loretta Evans, for coming on and talking about "circumstantial evidence." Does it really add up? And to Bill Habermann from Washington State, talking about the cemetery he adopted and how you might be able to do something of the same. Hey, and don't forget, if you're going to become your family's family history expert, you need to sign up for our free newsletter, The Weekly Genie. Do it at ExtremeGenes.com or our Facebook page. Talk to you next week. And remember, as far as everyone knows, we're a nice, normal family!

New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Bill and Andrew resume last week's conversation to finish looking at how current trends in technology will have an impact on the future of our economy. Although these shifts may be a few years away, understanding the how these change can impact your business will help you prepare and not be caught off guard. This week, we speculate on what will disappear and just how these shifts impact the economy and thus your livelihood. The predictions we propose have the potential to revolutionize the way we interact with the economy. Tune into this final segment of our two-part conversation to find out how you can get prepared. Subscribe:  iTunes | Stitcher (With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Bill D'Alessandro of Rebel CEO.) Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel Podcast, the show dedicated to helping high six and seven-figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I'm your host and fellow eCommerce entrepreneur, Andrew Youderian. Hey, guys. It's Andrew here. Welcome to the eCommerceFuel Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today. And today, we're going to be continuing our discussion that Bill D'Alessandro and I...that we started last week, specifically talking about the massive world-shifting changes that are going to be headed your way in the coming years. And last week, specifically, we talked about robots and artificial intelligence. We talked about widespread virtual reality. We talked about negative interest rates and an extremely low-interest-rate environment for the coming future. And that's where we left it off. So what to dive in today is particularly about things that are going to be disappearing in the future that are going to have a big change on your life. So I'll go ahead and we'll pick it up right from where we left off last week. Enjoy! The Two Party System So moving into things that will be disappearing, the first one on here, and this is something that's really interesting, Bill, because we have different opinions on this. The two-party system. You and I were prepping, and we were like, "We've got to make sure that we do not turn this into just a political mock-fest," because I think you and I could go off for hours about what a nightmare elections... And apologies to people outside the U.S. This will be U.S.-centric. But most people would agree it's been a very unorthodox election campaign season. And I think this could be the final straw to break the two-party system, but you don't. And I'll let you maybe make the argument first. Bill: I would like you to make the argument first, and then I will rebut because I think... Andrew: Oh. Bill: Well, because I have not heard your angle on this, so I would like to hear it. Andrew: I think the two-party system in the U.S., of course, Democrats and Republicans, I feel like has been... It's kind of anachronism. And you have, I think, a lot of people our age, Bill. Not just like, you know, late 20s or early 30s. But going out 10 plus years in both sides, you have a very large portion of the population that is far more centrist, people that are maybe economically conservative but socially liberal, people that don't identify with the very extreme fringes of the Democratic and the Republican Parties. And for a long time, I think, traditionally, the two-party systems, they weren't quite as extreme, and so maybe that larger or kind of social norms were a little bit more divided. But I think that the parties historically weren't as extreme, and so people were able to relate to them more. But I think in the last 10 to 15 years, they've gotten so extreme on both sides. You have a lot of people that don't feel like they don't belong to any party at all. And I think this is the first election where you have just open rebellion in the Republican Party, and to a much lesser degree, in the Democratic Party.

George remembers quite vividly his days of being tutored on shift. It was a great time for him, his first foray into real police work. As a very 'wet behind the ears' probationer, he experienced confrontation on an unprecendented scale, had a taste of man's inhumanity to man and witnessed the social degradation that goes hand in hand with some of the more colorful characters police officers meet in their daily work lives. And he loved it.His tutor was a silver haired, old school copper called Bill. George had no idea how old he was, only that he was 'more than likely' in his early forties although the lines on his face no doubt belied his real age. George knew he had been around since the miners' strike and that he had seen the big changes in the criminal justice system as well as policing in the UK change forever. Bill had been a beat officer all his working life, spent some time as schools liasion officer before becoming a tutor. He used to 'swing the lamp', furnishing George with tales, most of them touched with some wisdom in an effort to highlight where he had perhaps gone wrong or needed some development. Bill was old school. His younger shift colleagues regarded him as a 'dinosaur' and 'out of touch' but he had more policing skills in his left small finger than most of them could muster collectively.George had the upmost respect for Bill and his time with him has stayed with him. He taught him patience and how to use his communication skills to their full advantage. "Who wants to fight when we can just talk?" Bill used to say. George has witnessed first hand this silver fox outsmart drunks and druggies more than once, even talking them into handcuffs. At 6'2" Bill was no lightweight and could handle himself and he often said he wanted to go home after a shift, not casualty.Some years later George finds himself in Bill's boots, he's tutoring and for the most part he loves it. He meets the young guns and forms bonds with them, he's genuinely interested in seeing how they develop and likes to be the one to give them their handshake when they reach confirmation. It means a lot to him.So, what about Bill? Well he's still about, his silver hair is now white and he has a little desk job that keeps him off the front line. He and George do catch up every now and then and a little while ago he came up to George's office and asked to speak to him."George" he said, "I haven't got much use for this now, I would like you to have it". Bill handed him a small silver key, it was well worn and a bit bent at the end. "It's a key to all the park gates in the area" he muttered. It was a special moment, George didn't know how long Bill had had it or even if it still worked but he took it and thanked him. Of all the probationers Bill had taught George felt touched that he had chosen him to pass it to. Perhaps it is because Bill saw a lot of himself in George, or perhaps just that he was now a tutor. George really didn't know.For the record the key doesn't work. George tried it one night after a group of lads had decamped from a stolen vehicle and made off over the railings into a park. He didn't curse Bill, he knew it probably wouldn't work given that the council change the locks on all the park gates every 5 years. He just placed it back onto his key chain and when his probationer asked why he wanted to keep it, because it clearly didnt work he replied "It's more than just a key", before pulling himself up over the fence. "Besides" he continued, "I need to hand it down to someone at some point. I've just got to find the right person."'Right Click' and 'Save as' to download the audio version

完整文稿请关注“英语环球”6月30日微信。 Text of the 2014 Commencement address by Bill and Melinda Gates Bill Gates: Congratulations, Class of 2014! Melinda and I are excited to be here. It would be a thrill for anyone to be invited to speak at a Stanford Commencement – but it's especially gratifying for us. Stanford is rapidly becoming the favorite university for members of our family. And it's long been a favorite university for Microsoft and our foundation. Our formula has been to get the smartest, most creative people working on the most important problems. It turns out that a disproportionate number of those people are at Stanford. Right now, we have more than 30 foundation research projects underway with Stanford. When we want to learn more about the immune system to help cure the worst diseases, we work with Stanford. When we want to understand the changing landscape of higher education in the United States so that more low-income students get college degrees, we work with Stanford. This is where genius lives. There is a flexibility of mind here – an openness to change, an eagerness for what's new. This is where people come to discover the future and have fun doing it. Melinda Gates: Some people call you nerds – and you claim the label with pride. Bill: Well, so do we. There are so many remarkable things going on here at this campus. But if Melinda and I had to put into one word what we love most about Stanford, it's the optimism. There's an infectious feeling here that innovation can solve almost every problem. That's the belief that drove me, in 1975, to leave a college in the suburbs of Boston and go on an endless leave of absence. I believed that the magic of computers and software would empower people everywhere and make the world much, much better. It's been almost 40 years since then, and 20 years since Melinda and I were married. We are both more optimistic now than ever. But on our journey together, our optimism evolved. We'd like to tell you what we learned – and talk to you today about how your optimism and ours can do more – for more people. When Paul Allen and I started Microsoft, we wanted to bring the power of computers and software to the people – and that was the kind of rhetoric we used. One of the pioneering books in the field had a raised fist on the cover, and it was called Computer Lib. At that time, only big businesses could buy computers. We wanted to offer the same power to regular people – and democratize computing. By the 1990s, we saw how profoundly personal computers could empower people. But that success created a new dilemma: If rich kids got computers and poor kids didn't, then technology would make inequality worse. That ran counter to our core belief: Technology should benefit everybody. So we worked to close the digital divide. I made it a priority at Microsoft, and Melinda and I made it an early priority at our foundation – donating personal computers to public libraries to make sure everyone had access. The digital divide was a focus of mine in 1997 when I took my first trip to South Africa. I went there on business, so I spent most of my time in meetings in downtown Johannesburg. I stayed in the home of one of the richest families in South Africa. It had only been three years since the election of Nelson Mandela marked the end of apartheid. When I sat down for dinner with my hosts, they used a bell to call the butler. After dinner, the men and women separated, and the men smoked cigars. I thought, "Good thing I read Jane Austen, or I wouldn't have known what was going on." The next day I went to Soweto – the poor township southwest of Johannesburg that had been a center of the anti-apartheid movement. It was a short distance from the city into the township, but the entry was sudden, jarring, and harsh. I passed into a world completely unlike the one I came from. My visit to Soweto became an early lesson in how naïve I was. Microsoft was donating computers and software to a community center there – the kind of thing we did in the United States. But it became clear to me very quickly that this was not the United States. I had seen statistics on poverty, but I had never really seen poverty. The people there lived in corrugated tin shacks with no electricity, no water, no toilets. Most people didn't wear shoes; they walked barefoot along the streets. Except there were no streets – just ruts in the mud. The community center had no consistent source of power, so they had rigged up an extension cord that ran about 200 feet from the center to a diesel generator outside. Looking at the setup, I knew the minute the reporters and I left, the generator would get moved to a more urgent task, and the people who used the community center would go back to worrying about challenges that couldn't be solved by a PC. When I gave my prepared remarks to the press, I said: "Soweto is a milestone. There are major decisions ahead about whether technology will leave the developing world behind. This is to close the gap." As I was reading those words, I knew they were irrelevant. What I didn't say was: "By the way, we're not focused on the fact that half a million people on this continent are dying every year from malaria. But we're sure as hell going to bring you computers." Before I went to Soweto, I thought I understood the world's problems, but I was blind to the most important ones. I was so taken aback by what I saw that I had to ask myself, "Do I still believe that innovation can solve the world's toughest problems?" ...

Bill: Robert, I have some tickets to the Hawks game. Do you want to go? Robert: Not really, Bill. I don't like baseball. Bill: Oh, do you like sports? Robert: Yes, of course. Bill: What kind of sports do you like? Robert: I like soccer. Bill: Well, that's the world's most popular sport. Let's practice. A: What kind of sports do you like? B: I like soccer. A: What kind of Japanese food do you like? B: I like sushi. A: What kind of books do you like? B: I like Harry Potter. A: What kind of movies do you like? B: I like action movies. A: What kind of cars do you like? B: I like sports cars. A: What kind of computers do you like? B: I like Apple computers. www.eltpodcast.com

Bill: Do you want a cup of coffee? Robert: Yeah, sure. So, what have you been up to? Bill: Well, I've been really busy trying to finish this project on time. Robert: Are you having a hard time? Bill: Yes, but I haven't had enough time to really concentrate on it. Robert: I know what you mean. Bill: Not only that, but I've been feeling a little under the weather lately. Robert: Did you catch a cold? Bill: I don't know, I think I'm coming down with something. Robert: Maybe you should see a doctor. Bill: I think I'll go tomorrow. Robert: Good idea. Let's practice: A: So, what have you been up to? B: Well, I've been studying hard for exams. A: So, what have you been up to? B: I've been busy working every day. A: So, what have you been up to? B: Nothing. I've been really bored lately. A: So, what have you been up to? B: I got a new job. I've been trying get along with everybody at work. A: So, what have you been up to? B: I started guitar lessons. www.eltpodcast.com